Animal Slaughter: A Time For Change

[WhiteFeather]

Thinking of your diet becoming a plant based one in the future perhaps? Here are two reasons why it might just change your mind someday!

On This Thread, User discretion is advised.

2 Reasons:

1. The cruel treatment of animals in slaughter houses from factory farming.
2. The need to raise our frequency's by choosing a plant based diet. And Eating meat may actually hinder our spiritual growth.

Love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Think Different, Eat Different!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrq1wTkMzDY&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3Dmeat%2Bvideo%26oq%3Dmeat%2Bvideo%26aq%3 Df%26aqi%3Dg3g-m7%26aql%3D%26gs_l%3Dyoutube.12..0l3j0i5l7.2912l56 97l0l13533l12l12l1l0l0l0l60l598l11l11l0.

A link from Pane Andov's Website:
Pane Andov On Animal Slaughter (http://paneandov.com/%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D 0%B0-%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B2%D0%B0%D 0%B0%D1%82-%D0%B7%D0%B0-%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8-%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B8/)

[Kindling]

Gawd Whitefeather, I was about to say I was glad I was having shrimp tonight instead of another kind of meat, then it got to the seafood part - uggg!! It's something to think about for sure. It also makes me think we should *at the very least* go back to more humane small farming where the animals have some quality of life and more wild game hunting. I know that isn't acceptable to dedicated vegans, but geez, so much better than the insanity in that video. Thanks for freaking me out before dinner Whitefeather!!! Very interesting and shocking which might be what we need to stop these crazy things. Hugs :-)

[WhiteFeather]

Gawd Whitefeather, I was about to say I was glad I was having shrimp tonight instead of another kind of meat, then it got to the seafood part - uggg!! It's something to think about for sure. It also makes me think we should *at the very least* go back to more humane small farming where the animals have some quality of life and more wild game hunting. I know that isn't acceptable to dedicated vegans, but geez, so much better than the insanity in that video. Thanks for freaking me out before dinner Whitefeather!!! Very interesting and shocking which might be what we need to stop these crazy things. Hugs :-)

Sorry Kindling for upsetting your dinner,,Seafood is also off limits for me.

[dan i el]

I've been vegetarian for about 23 years

[WhiteFeather]

I've been vegetarian for about 23 years

Think of all the animals you've saved! Been a vegetarian for 2 years now.

[dan i el]

Good for you! :)

[mosquito]

Thanks Whitefeather, I took a quick peek at the pics, but found them too nauseating. I watched the farm to fridge factory about 3 weeks ago, which sickened me, and I haven't touched meat since.

Personally I'm still on the fence on the whole issue, but totally against modern factory farming

[Calz]

Going to post a related story ... totally insane ... but I am not up for starting a thread tonight.

__________


Insane Michigan government announces plan to destroy ranch livestock based on hair color and arrest hundreds of ranchers as felons

Tuesday, March 27, 2012
by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger
Editor of NaturalNews.com

(NaturalNews) The state of Michigan is only days away from engaging in what can only be called true "animal genocide" -- the mass murder of ranch animals based on the color of their hair. It's all part of a shocking new "Invasive Species Order" (ISO) put in place by Michigan's Department of Natural Resources (DNR). This Invasive Species Order suddenly and shockingly defines virtually all open-range pigs raised by small family farms to be illegal "invasive species," and possession of just one of these animals is now a felony crime in Michigan, punishable by up to four years in prison.

The state has said it will "destroy" these pigs beginning in April, potentially by raiding local farms with government-issued rifles, then shooting the pig herds while arresting the members of the family and charging them with the "crime" of raising pigs with the wrong hair color. This may truly be a state-sponsored serial animal killing spree.

Reality check: You may think this story is some kind of early April Fools prank, but it isn't. This is factually true and verifiable through the documents, videos and websites linked below. The state of Michigan seriously intends to unleash a mass murder spree of pigs of the wrong color beginning April 1.

Yet these are the very pigs that farmers and ranchers in Michigan have been raising for decades. The state doesn't seem to care about this, and there are indications that this ISO may have been nudged into position by the conventional pork industry as a tactic to wipe out its competition of local, specialty ranching conducted by small families and dedicated farmers who don't work for the big pork corporations. (The Michigan Pork Grower's Association.)

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/035372_Michigan_pigs_farm_freedom.html#ixzz1qNh6vlLy

[161803398]

Why is Michigan so insane?

[STATIC]

dam, couldn't even make it past 1:30

I am assuming the Michigan incident has everything to do with money and nothing to with having a problem with an "invasive species".

Maybe we could start a petition on change.org and send a few emails to action groups.

[modwiz]

I've been boycotting the satanic food system for 21 years. Love my plant based diet, mental and physical health are beyond are off the charts compared to people I rub elbows with. Almost a different species. Boycott is a bit of a misnomer. Way of life is more like it. Thriving in high gear is another.

[Paladin14]

A youtube video/presentation by Pane Andov recently helped push me over the edge on not eating meat anymore. I was for the most part raw vegan for over a year or so, but still ate meat here and there. My spiritual excuse for eating it was that "if I don't eat this, the animal died in vain".

When people I know well ask me why I don't eat meat one of the things I sometimes reply with is "would you eat your pet dog or cat?" and so far, every single response (of probably only less than 10 people) is, "if that's all there was to eat, yes I would". My response to that is, "if that's all there was left to eat in the world, then I'm going to die soon after anyway, I'd rather not eat my friend, I would rather die." or "I'd eat the living plants growing all over the place before eating the rotting corpse of my dead pet, and if there aren't plants around, I'd be pretty screwed anyway so I'd still rather die than eat the pet."

[meeradas]

... totally insane ...

I'm out of words.

Spread this

843yH_0RMIA

[Maia Gabrial]

Animals are not dumb creatures. Any human who works in such environments probably lost most of themselves and their humanity to this animal nightmare.
Tells you what kind of mentality it takes to do this to fellow beings....
I'm hoping that this will be one of the changes that takes place soon....

[Nerge]

I've eaten meat all my life (brought up that way) but I'd really like to give it up, even though I don't eat a great deal and rarely red meats.
It's not so much the fact I couldn't live without it, as in missing the taste and variety in meals, as I'm sure I could overcome that easily enough.

The things that concern me are:

1) Having enough interesting and varied meal ideas on a vegetarian diet.

2) Making sure I'm getting enough of the correct and right vitamins/calories etc etc.

I've always been pretty slender anyway so the last thing I want to do is shrink and vanish due to getting my diet screwed up. Any tips on starting out as a vegetarian to cover the two points above would be great. :)

I think much of the problem is the fact that the animals are all raised, slaughtered and packed up out of sight, at least for the vast majority of people these days.
This causes people to almost forget that it was a living animal at one point and that it's just a pink slab of protein. I imagine the meat-eater VS vegetarian ratio would be a heck of alot more balanced if we all had to raise and slaughter our own animals for meat. The same could be said about many things in our world today though; out of sight out of mind.

[Maia Gabrial]

I'm so ashamed of my former state....

[Calz]

I'm so ashamed of my former state....

Why not give yourself credit for learning, growing and make the correct changes?

Shame is a very low vibration.

Forgive yourself and move on ... :clap2:

[Bo Atkinson]

I've been a mostly vegetarian since 1985 and mostly vegan-aspiring for maybe 10 years. Can't quite get off tasty cheese ..... Or spend adequate time replacing the taste. I do believe better tastes could be devised vegetatively, in a better world, but welcome us all to earth. There are many links for gourmet vegans, etc... Time or money is required there. In a sentence, culanary convenience (time saving advice).... Yummy aspects are achieved with the optimum balance of salinity, sweetness and sourness, most especially if all ingredients are of the highest qualities.

I used to raise broiler chickens in this ferro-concrete roostower:
http://harmoniouspalette.com/roostowerW-P1010151.jpg
Raising animal takes tons more energy of humans and also much more oil and water, all of which enriches the wrong folks.

I need good nutrition, at age 62, for concrete-labor, etc and can say i'm just as fit, shoveling all day long in sweltering heat as most any good slave out there. I recovered from skull-fracturing injury from a 20 ton excavator on the job, no insurance, no doctors. Not bragging, just confirming that vegans can be among the strongest athletes, even multi-decade-marathon champs like Gary Null, who is older than me, prove it way beyond my humble stance-- Google his vegan recipes and protocols which have incidently cured medically abandoned people .

I can put people to sleep on facts, figures and proofs, all to support the efficacy of high vibe diets... BTW, more than "raise vibrations", i think we can, with comprehensive efforts, click on and off multi-bands, not just the frequency metaphor. Bands like shortwave radio, turn on, tune up, see more densities around us (and the illusions of our matrix).

[unicorny]

factory farming and the slaughter and transport of animals was the reason I became veggie about 23 years ago I would never go back, although when pregnant I was desperately craving meat and after much deliberation, did have some lamb on one occasion, never had the craving after that. and I think a plant based diet definately raises vibrational frequency especially if your avoiding dairy too. I could never give up my poached eggs, but got my own chickens so I have no ethical concerns about eating their "periods" as my friends likes to somewhat coarsely describe them :)

[jorr lundstrom]

I eat meat, Im doomed.
I smoke tobacco, Im doomed.
I breed rabbits for meat; Im doomed.
I rise chickens for eggs and meat, Im doomed.
I draw carrots out of the soil, though they are screaming, Im doomed.
I cant get a high vibrational level, Im doomed.
Im low life. The scum of this planet.
Maybe I can get things right next life, wot do ya think?

Inquisition is knocking at my door.


http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/lamm_240475.jpg


All is well


Jorr

[blufire]

I struggled on whether to post on this thread or not. But . . . I guess I’ll continue on being a voice for us low-vibrating, unconscious, unspiritual, knuckle dragging, Neanderthal, locked in perpetual 3D pathetic human world.

I turned 53 yesterday and have been a meat eater all my life. I am extremely healthy, never go to the doctor and can still go toe to toe with woman or sometimes men half my own age. Healthy cholesterol (total 187), blood pressure (110/70) pulse rate (74) all healthy vital statistics. I eat all meats, but mostly now meat from buffalo and chicken we raise on our own farms.

Not everyone has the blood type that enables them to be vegetarian or vegan

Unless you are growing all your own vegetables (organically) you are supporting, at a minimum. the oil industry because of the fertilizers and herbicides (oil base) and fuel it takes to haul your vegetables from other countries and/or grow them in greenhouses heated by oil based fuels.

It is not logical to think everyone across the world should or could live only on vegetables because they cannot be grown in their region. Ask an Inuit to be vegan and see the response you get or how about people who live in arid (desert) countries. Does this mean they are doomed to be low vibrating, unspiritual and trapped in a 3d existence?

What would we feed the millions of family pets across America? Or are we going to make these carnivores be vegan and vegetarian too. What would be the solution for them?

The horrendous slaughter houses are unconscionable but so are the billions of acres of genetically mutated vegetables and grains we are force fed.

The horrendous truth is what would we feed the billions of people of the world? No one ever answers this question and I bring it up over and over. Yeah Yeah free energy and futuristic farms . . . .but how do we get there with out first billions of people starving slowly to death?

Ignoring the FOUNDATIONAL problem will never get us to a more human and humane system. And I ain’t going to say what that is because everyone really gets their bloomers in a wad over that one.

And by the way Whitefeather . . . . you have the picture of a Crow Indian warrior as your avatar . . . what do you suppose he ate? I guess he never made it out of 3d vibration either . . . . . .

[Bo Atkinson]

Good people, please let us not wrestle, but rather find solutions. Blufire, i'm blood type B- which i've heard time and again, requires this blood bearer to eat meat or fish or whatnot.... I have eaten as many as a dozen eggs for breakfast in the old days, for hard labor protein. Loved it. Yes, heh-heh, hen periods at that, half of them were fertile though, thanks to our roosters. I used to get sore tongue issues, which ultimately i discovered was lack of omega3, well furnished by salmon, fish oils and the like. This happened despite the "blood on top" (of fertilized eggs). The fish oils would quickly restore my tongue-indicator of health. So would supplements of omega3. Finally i caught on to my, poor-man's, omega3 which happens to be flax oil. I just add a hand full of flax seed to my morning smoothie, (very complex blend, according to income).

I have thought of meat animals as collectors of nutrients for people. Well sure they do so. The rural, old fashioned farm meats are indeed nutritious, but primitive, as compared to today's high end supplements... L-Carnosine and Acetyl-L-Carnetine-Arginate HCL, are possibly the best age-extenders, from what little i've studied, for low budgeters..... The word prefix Carn, i believe comes from the Latin word for 'meat'..... Though the relationship is mysterious to me because hard facts are difficult to corroborate-- Just to say, this nutrient might or might not be present in particular meats, perhaps moose?? I disclaim any advice here and merely provide key words from my studies.... Things like telomere tech goes into high end products, but also gets big acclaim for age extention.

Dog food is assorted pink-slims, road kill complete with flee collars intact, and the latest fillers from who knows where. An old friend of mine committed suicide the other year, complaining of medical issues and not being up to his former dynamic self... In our early days as friends, he would eat dog food to show off as to his macho character. One of my beloved dogs died of head-shrinkage which was painful to watch as he followed me around like a drunk crashing left and right. Half his head was literally dented inwards by the incurable condition. Fully half shrunk there, not just a little.

The fact is our societies are so screwed up beyond comprehension, that there is no immediate solution, such as to "let them eat crusts" or whatever. "we are just where we are supposed to be" a mentor used to say.... We are all playing a master's game, at the height of galactic proportions. Use your cards, play your hand well.

[WhiteFeather]

Animals are not dumb creatures. Any human who works in such environments probably lost most of themselves and their humanity to this animal nightmare.
Tells you what kind of mentality it takes to do this to fellow beings....
I'm hoping that this will be one of the changes that takes place soon....

Exactly,,,Change we must! Time to treat the animals like human beings in the law of one. We are directly connected to them. By consuming animals i believe it has a Karmic effect on our spiritual growth and evolution. Consuming animals displays what primitive species we still are. This is why our extra terrestrial friends are more evolved due to the fact that most of them are fruitetarians or rely more on a plant based diet.

Quote by Blufire: And by the way Whitefeather . . . . you have the picture of a Crow Indian warrior as your avatar . . . what do you suppose he ate? I guess he never made it out of 3d vibration either . . . . . .

The native Indians cannot be compared to today's society of carnivores, everything the Indians did, they did with spirituality. Any hunted animal for feasting was celebrated to the spirit world and the animal itself for thanks. Thereby doing this IMO, didn't bring any negative Karma back to them. In today's society of knowledge and information on diet, we have many alternatives to eating. The Indians didn't have this accessability or technology. Many family's don't even say grace or a prayer anymore before eating. This is the difference. RESPECT for Nature!

[13th Warrior]

Thinking of your diet becoming a plant based one in the future perhaps? Here are two reasons why it might just change your mind someday!

On This Thread, User discretion is advised.

2 Reasons:

1. The cruel treatment of animals in slaughter houses from factory farming.
2. The need to raise our frequency's by choosing a plant based diet. And Eating meat may actually hinder our spiritual growth.

Love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Think Different, Eat Different!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrq1wTkMzDY&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3Dmeat%2Bvideo%26oq%3Dmeat%2Bvideo%26aq%3 Df%26aqi%3Dg3g-m7%26aql%3D%26gs_l%3Dyoutube.12..0l3j0i5l7.2912l56 97l0l13533l12l12l1l0l0l0l60l598l11l11l0.

A link from Pane Andov's Website:
Pane Andov On Animal Slaughter (http://paneandov.com/%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D 0%B0-%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B2%D0%B0%D 0%B0%D1%82-%D0%B7%D0%B0-%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8-%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B8/)

1. Factory farms are an abomination!

2. I really wish this was true but, I've seen little evidence to support this supposition.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Good people, please let us not wrestle, but rather find solutions. Blufire, i'm blood type B- which i've heard time and again, requires this blood bearer to eat meat or fish or whatnot.... I have eaten as many as a dozen eggs for breakfast in the old days, for hard labor protein. Loved it. Yes, heh-heh, hen periods at that, half of them were fertile though, thanks to our roosters. I used to get sore tongue issues, which ultimately i discovered was lack of omega3, well furnished by salmon, fish oils and the like. This happened despite the "blood on top" (of fertilized eggs). The fish oils would quickly restore my tongue-indicator of health. So would supplements of omega3. Finally i caught on to my, poor-man's, omega3 which happens to be flax oil. I just add a hand full of flax seed to my morning smoothie, (very complex blend, according to income).

I have thought of meat animals as collectors of nutrients for people. Well sure they do so. The rural, old fashioned farm meats are indeed nutritious, but primitive, as compared to today's high end supplements... L-Carnosine and Acetyl-L-Carnetine-Arginate HCL, are possibly the best age-extenders, from what little i've studied, for low budgeters..... The word prefix Carn, i believe comes from the Latin word for 'meat'..... Though the relationship is mysterious to me because hard facts are difficult to corroborate-- Just to say, this nutrient might or might not be present in particular meats, perhaps moose?? I disclaim any advice here and merely provide key words from my studies.... Things like telomere tech goes into high end products, but also gets big acclaim for age extention.

Dog food is assorted pink-slims, road kill complete with flee collars intact, and the latest fillers from who knows where. An old friend of mine committed suicide the other year, complaining of medical issues and not being up to his former dynamic self... In our early days as friends, he would eat dog food to show off as to his macho character. One of my beloved dogs died of head-shrinkage which was painful to watch as he followed me around like a drunk crashing left and right. Half his head was literally dented inwards by the incurable condition. Fully half shrunk there, not just a little.

The fact is our societies are so screwed up beyond comprehension, that there is no immediate solution, such as to "let them eat crusts" or whatever. "we are just where we are supposed to be" a mentor used to say.... We are all playing a master's game, at the height of galactic proportions. Use your cards, play your hand well.

Flax seed is pretty good for omega 3's but, chia seeds blow everything out of the water.

[blufire]

Whitefeather’s thread title includes “A Time for Change”. I agree . . .we are way past time for a change.

Every few months this dilemma comes up on Avalon . . . eating meat, vegan, vegetarian, low-vs-high vibration. Everybody fusses around, throws insults, polarizes and divides and then we all back off and go back to our corners, lick our wounds, pout and come back out swinging when it comes up again. And we start all over again.

How about we bring this issue to some sort of conclusion . . . as best we can . . . all on one thread. So then the next time a member brings this issue up we refer back to our “problem solving” . . . “solution finding" thread.

There will be some parts we can never completely solve but I would ask that we . . . .as forward, deeper thinking individuals . . . come to a workable place . . .a place that maybe a can offer more reasonable, practical solutions . . . for ALL.

So maybe we could start with a couple basics.

We all agree that the factory farming and slaughtering of animals is horrendous and need to stop . . . .right?? We got that one down . . . I don’t think anyone would say other wise. Everybody say yes or no . . . we agree on this one right?

Okay so, let’s address a bit harder one. Can we come to an agreement that not all people are able to be vegetarian or vegan? Our blood types or heritage or genetic makeup requires us to consume more of a red meat type protein.

Just stick with the foundational concept . . .that some require meat . . .let’s not try the substitute protein sources thing or the vibration spiritual thing. . . . can we agree that some require more of a meat based diet than others?

[Bo Atkinson]

"Flax seed is pretty good for omega 3's but, chia seeds blow everything out of the water."

I thought i read it has other nutrients of prime interest, but more omega3 in particular???

Late Edit
Price of omega 3 milli-grams in flax as compared with
price of omega 3 in milligrams chia
How much money per how many milligrams
(cost per dosage)
chia sure has other nutrients, but far-distant people can get same nutrients, even locally

Price performance wise, i have found that it entirely depends on shipping, etc.... If i lived in Mexico, i'd eat more and definitely eat tons of avocados. We are growing a miniature tree in the attic, "roof garden" , but wife says it hasn't set fruit yet. (Our dome cover is old and yellowed, perhaps too opaque.) When income permits, we buy the goodies and love it too, but mix i mix up a ratio of about 9 to 1, flax seed to chia seed. Avocado are dream food to me.

[13th Warrior]

"Flax seed is pretty good for omega 3's but, chia seeds blow everything out of the water."

I thought i read it has other nutrients of prime interest, but more omega3 in particular??? Price performance wise, i have found that it entirely depends on shipping, etc.... If i lived in Mexico, i'd eat more and definitely eat tons of avocados. We are growing a miniature tree in the attic, "roof garden" , but wife says it hasn't set fruit yet. (Our dome cover is old and yellowed, perhaps too opaque.) When income permits, we buy the goodies and love it too, but mix i mix up a ratio of about 9 to 1, flax seed to chia seed. Avocado are dream food to me.

Chia has twice as much omega 3s per table spoon of flax.

[WhiteFeather]

Lets not forget the health issues of the animals that are factory farmed (living in stressed out situations, never seeing the light of day etc.) There meat simply becomes tainted from the environments they live in. And then we ingest their tainted meat, causing sickness to ourselves and our children. Karma is a bitch.

[13th Warrior]

Whitefeather’s thread title includes “A Time for Change”. I agree . . .we are way past time for a change.

Every few months this dilemma comes up on Avalon . . . eating meat, vegan, vegetarian, low-vs-high vibration. Everybody fusses around, throws insults, polarizes and divides and then we all back off and go back to our corners, lick our wounds, pout and come back out swinging when it comes up again. And we start all over again.

How about we bring this issue to some sort of conclusion . . . as best we can . . . all on one thread. So then the next time a member brings this issue up we refer back to our “problem solving” . . . “solution finding" thread.

There will be some parts we can never completely solve but I would ask that we . . . .as forward, deeper thinking individuals . . . come to a workable place . . .a place that maybe a can offer more reasonable, practical solutions . . . for ALL.

So maybe we could start with a couple basics.

We all agree that the factory farming and slaughtering of animals is horrendous and need to stop . . . .right?? We got that one down . . . I don’t think anyone would say other wise. Everybody say yes or no . . . we agree on this one right?

Okay so, let’s address a bit harder one. Can we come to an agreement that not all people are able to be vegetarian or vegan? Our blood types or heritage or genetic makeup requires us to consume more of a red meat type protein.

Just stick with the foundational concept . . .that some require meat . . .let’s not try the substitute protein sources thing or the vibration spiritual thing. . . . can we agree that some require more of a meat based diet than others?

A primary problem with addressing this issue has to do with ethnocentrism.

[blufire]

Ethnocentrism . . . . agreed, but let’s not go there.

Can we just really really try to stay on the bottom line, black & white (as much as possible) concepts?

No over analyzing the subjective stuff

Can we, here on Avalon, rise above this type of conditioning and brainwashing?

Can we stick to really trying to solve this problem or are we doomed to division and hurtful dirt throwing?

Again the question . . . . can we agree that some require meat?

[mind-scape]

-Deleted what was posted. C'est pas important. ;) -

[blufire]

Lets not forget the health issues of the animals that are factory farmed (living in stressed out situations, never seeing the light of day etc.) There meat simply becomes tainted from the environments they live in. And then we ingest their tainted meat, causing sickness to ourselves and our children. Karma is a bitch.

This is all true Whitefeather and karma can be a bitch. But, a few of us refusing to eat meat because of the atrocities will not end the karma for humanity . . . even for those who are vegan and vegetarian

Karma goes deeper than that . . . because you are not becoming active in solving the insanity. Ignoring the truth will not make it go away.

Acknowledge the deeper foundational truths.

Again can we even attempt at engaging in finding even the beginning of a solution or do we just go through this all over again until everyone becomes frustrated and quits? Perpetuating and further grinding in our conditioning and brainwashing?

Not much fun is it . . . . when you take away the emotional sensational shock value . . . .

Can we agree that some require meat in their diet?

[Belle]

Lets not forget the health issues of the animals that are factory farmed (living in stressed out situations, never seeing the light of day etc.) There meat simply becomes tainted from the environments they live in. And then we ingest their tainted meat, causing sickness to ourselves and our children. Karma is a bitch.

This is all true Whitefeather and karma can be a bitch. But, a few of us refusing to eat meat because of the atrocities will not end the karma for humanity . . . even for those who are vegan and vegetarian

Karma goes deeper than that . . . because you are not becoming active in solving the insanity. Ignoring the truth will not make it go away.

Acknowledge the deeper foundational truths.

Again can we even attempt at engaging in finding even the beginning of a solution or do we just go through this all over again until everyone becomes frustrated and quits? Perpetuating and further grinding in our conditioning and brainwashing?

Not much fun is it . . . . when you take away the emotional sensational shock value . . . .

Can we agree that some require meat in their diet?

Why do you need others approval to eat meat? If you want to eat it, go ahead....it's your choice. I doubt we will ever come to a consensus on this...it is not a situation where "one size fits all".

A solution? Eliminate the ideas of factory farms as the only way to feed "all the people"...eliminate the ideas that GMO's can do the same and they are safer than organic...eliminate the ideas that government is our Daddy and is only out for our own good.

Create the ideas that what is being done "for our own good" is unacceptable. We are not children. Create the ideas that free will allows for thinking outside of the box...that I speak only for myself...that each person is allowed to choose their own way as long as it does not bring harm to another. And start living it in our own lives.

And what good are ideas? Everything is brought into creation by a thought and idea first...the rest follows.

[WhiteFeather]

If the proper care and practice in treating animals prior to slaughter is utilized and respected i would agree with meat consumers of today. But that is not the practice of our society today. Our animals are treated poorly and in totally unsafe living conditions. And All for the benefit of greed and making a fast buck with total disregard for nature on this planet. Just look what they are doing to our much needed rainforests on the account of greed. IMO, If we are to advance as a species from primitive species to a much evolved species, this is a great place to start. Taking proper care and protecting our wildlife and all of its inhabitants. I leave you this video. Please watch it when you can.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWtVTu6S51M

[blufire]

Belle did you read my post #25?

Whitefeather, have you ever cared for a large group of livestock?

And by the way Whitefeather, one of the reasons meat producers have to cut their expenses down (in caring for the animals) is because WE demand cheap food (not only meat). Would you be able or willing to pay about 4 to 5 times more than what you pay now for your food? How about others who can’t afford even the minimum of what they need to live

Horrible horrible cycle

[Russ1959]

Great post Whitefeather, I became a raw food veggie after a similar post a couple of months back.

I have lost 3 and a half stone and have never felt healthier.

My wife and daughter have followed suite after catching a glimpse of a similar video!

Blessings

[Belle]

Belle did you read my post #25?

Yes I did, Blufire. Did you read my post? Did you hear what I said... or did you respond to what you thought I said?

[truth4me]

Maybe my spirit guides led me to this thread but I too aim thinking about giving up meat. Here in Arkansas as I'm sure as other places BBQ is big and it seems I'm losing my taste for it. Never would have thought that 10 years ago.....

[blufire]

I apologize sincerely for bringing negative energy to the forum and to this thread and will step out of the discussion.

[13th Warrior]

I apologize sincerely for bringing negative energy to the forum and to this thread and will step out of the discussion.

It's ok, this is an emotional issue for many.

[karelia]

I can't help but share some thoughts here... First of all, I don't think it's about eating meat vs. not eating meat. From what I can see, we already all agree that factory farming of any kind is wrong. For those of you who believe we can't make do without it because people demand cheap food, have you ever considered that if you eat actual nutrition, you need far less? To my mind, it comes down to consuming senselessly vs. providing nutrition to self in the most efficient and least invasive manner.

I'm vegetarian; my men are not, and it isn't for lack of trying or particularly loving meat. Some years ago, when I became aware of the subject of food and saw how food has been bastardized and abused, I gradually changed my way of eating. First, I avoided stuff that contains anything I can't pronounce. That alone turned me into a foodie. Then I started to actually think about the carbon print imported food leaves behind. That made me look for locally grown/raised vegetables, dairy, and meat. In spring and summer it was easy; winter, not so much. So I learned to can vegetables in order to have some nutrition in winter, besides dairy and eggs. After a year or so, I realised that not only had we not spent more money on food than before but we needed less, smaller portions.

So, really, whether you can make do without meat or not is really secondary here. By looking for locally produced foods, you've withdrawn your consent from the big corporations, and you benefit from better health. Plus, you support a commendable idea: that of a local economy. Just imagine, if everyone did that! The world would become a much better place without any effort. And yes, I will buy that bottle of imported Champagne when the news hit that one corporation after another goes bankrupt because nobody buys from them. Because if we only import what we can't grow, and grow enough of everything to export to a place that doesn't grow what we grow, then there is a much better balance in the world, a strong economy everywhere, and any profits go where they belong: to the community. /soapbox

[13th Warrior]

I can't help but share some thoughts here... First of all, I don't think it's about eating meat vs. not eating meat. From what I can see, we already all agree that factory farming of any kind is wrong. For those of you who believe we can't make do without it because people demand cheap food, have you ever considered that if you eat actual nutrition, you need far less? To my mind, it comes down to consuming senselessly vs. providing nutrition to self in the most efficient and least invasive manner.

I'm vegetarian; my men are not, and it isn't for lack of trying or particularly loving meat. Some years ago, when I became aware of the subject of food and saw how food has been bastardized and abused, I gradually changed my way of eating. First, I avoided stuff that contains anything I can't pronounce. That alone turned me into a foodie. Then I started to actually think about the carbon print imported food leaves behind. That made me look for locally grown/raised vegetables, dairy, and meat. In spring and summer it was easy; winter, not so much. So I learned to can vegetables in order to have some nutrition in winter, besides dairy and eggs. After a year or so, I realised that not only had we not spent more money on food than before but we needed less, smaller portions.

So, really, whether you can make do without meat or not is really secondary here. By looking for locally produced foods, you've withdrawn your consent from the big corporations, and you benefit from better health. Plus, you support a commendable idea: that of a local economy. Just imagine, if everyone did that! The world would become a much better place without any effort. And yes, I will buy that bottle of imported Champagne when the news hit that one corporation after another goes bankrupt because nobody buys from them. Because if we only import what we can't grow, and grow enough of everything to export to a place that doesn't grow what we grow, then there is a much better balance in the world, a strong economy everywhere, and any profits go where they belong: to the community. /soapbox

Hi Karelia,

I can relate very much to the path you've outlined.

[gypsybutterflykiss]

I think that over time I am slowly becoming a veggiesaur. Meat upsets my belly and gets caught in my teeth. It's at the point that it takes me more time to floss the crap out then it does to actually chew it. My husband is slowly starting to awaken from dreamland, he now buys meat from a local butcher rather than a supermarket and is buying organic fruits and veggies.. My children are little carnivores though- we can't cut it up and put it on their plates fast enough. Baby steps :)

[mind-scape]

"To each his own."

As we are all made of different things...Everyone's body is unique... :-)

Myself, I've had experience as a vegetarian, vegan, and a sparse meat eater.
I've learned to eat healthy... but also to be adaptable enough to get by on what's available. I've had to be very resourceful in this lifetime and have gained a lot of appreciation from this practice.

Personally speaking,
I prefer to have the bulk of my protein come from legumes... but I find that if I don't consume some sort of "thicker" protein like chicken every once in a while... my body demands it. I use discipline in every aspect of my life, but I always go by what -feels- right. I also consume dairy occasionally (in the form of yogurt mostly). My roommate is more or less vegan. We always cook together, and respect each others needs and differences.

I understand and respect all points of view on this subject.
And as far as animal cruelty goes... ah, why must we be cruel to every living thing on this planet? I agree that we need to change our approach to how we treat life... whether it be our own, or someone elses.

Thank you for opening up an interesting discussion.

[WhiteFeather]

Thank you all for your contributions to this touchy thread. I can only hope i have awakened a few to think slightly different perhaps. And Whatever path you choose, make it amost intuitive one. Much Love. In Light and Oneness. ≈W.f.≈

[Vanir]

I saw the news on this, it totally sicken me!

I'm fed up by the cruelty which is escalating world wide on a daily basis.
I stopped eating chicken and pork or any derivative products more than 5 years ago, and now days I hardly eat beef, I just can't eat it when my inner knowing tells me how much these animals are suffering so we may enjoy a plate of food.

New laws are imposed on humanity pushing us further and further into submission. Slowly we are being told what to eat, slowly we are being poison with GMO's, escalating Fluoride, artificial sweeteners just to name a few. Even now days there is no much choice here when one goes to the Supermarket, slowly we are being boxed in.

At times it feels to me as if we are going backwards towards the Dark Ages.
Our own Government here in Australia will tell you that they work for the interest of the Industries, thus they will not stop the cage animals issues, they are passing the buck onto the consumer. :(

[Russ1959]

Here is a wonderful reason not to eat meat and at least consider the benefits of a raw food diet.

The proof is in this very very beautiful ageless pudding so to speak!

O6oJA_xhTa8

[Paladin14]

The thread got steered into whether some people need meat or not, I don't think this is true. We get everything we need from plants, maybe in smaller dosages than animal protein, but its still all there (the essential amino acids).

The book "The China Study" changed my life; goes over all the health damaging effects animal protein causes, points to plenty of peer reviewed studies if you need the proof. That book, along with my own research into the topic, proved to me that we don't need to eat meat. There's a myth out there that we need to eat meat when we really don't.

If you're not eating enough of the plants you need to make up for not eating the meat (like legumes, quinoa and pistachios, tofu), then you might need to supplement some vitamin D (I prefer D3) and B12.

One question a lot of people ask me when I say I don't eat meat, or we don't need to eat meat is "where do you get your protein then". I simply say that we don't need protein, we need amino acids. We break down protein to get the amino acids we need from the protein. That's why I felt like crap after I eat meat- I got tired because my body shut down having to spend a lot of energy breaking down the meat to get what I needed out of it.
I like to think of it like this: saying you need to eat meat is like saying you need to eat a car to get the fuel out of the car. Proteins are microscopic machines that function in our body to make everything run, are they not? We feed and build these proteins with amino acids.

Ultimately I believe that your beliefs override anything people tell you anyway, we create our reality. Our intent, if strong enough, rules the reality, I mean look at Breatharians. But its nice to know about these things when you're challenged by people that don't want to let go of the whole meat eating thing.

[merkabagirll]

This is a very convincing documentary .... medical evidence that can't be disputed .... of the links between health and a plant-based diet.

http://www.filmsforaction.org/Watch/Forks_Over_Knives_2011/

(May have been posted before...)

[Paladin14]

This is a very convincing documentary .... medical evidence that can't be disputed .... of the links between health and a plant-based diet.

http://www.filmsforaction.org/Watch/Forks_Over_Knives_2011/

(May have been posted before...)

the author of the book I mentioned(The China Study), Dr Campbell- is in this documentary, thanks for sharing!

[merkabagirll]

This documentary is very convincing, explaining the undeniable health benefits of a plant-based diet.

http://www.filmsforaction.org/Watch/Forks_Over_Knives_2011/
(May have been posted before but worth a repost!)

[STATIC]

When all has been hashed out, it comes down to this. RESPONSIBILITY
Taking responsibility for your choices and expanding your consciousness enough to include all of the ramifications of those choices.

I have been a carnivore most of my life. Even though I was very conscious of where the meat was coming from I came to the realization that I was still not taking full responsibility.
I recently asked myself this simple question. Can I be the butcher? Will I pull the trigger? Will I be present for the animals death?
If I answered no in any case I would have to change.
Needless to say I am now in the thick of this.

I take great pleasure in growing and cooking my own food, so making this transition into full responsibility by leaving the consumption of animals behind is the only conclusion I can come to.

Like bluefire said. Some people don't have the option. This is true however for the most part those people do take full responsibility for their actions and live in balance with nature. They are not part of the problem so that is sort of a mute point.

There are practical parts of the discussion and also spiritual ones but in the end it's about owning the choices for both.
I don't expect the whole world to convert to vegetarianism, but if each and every one of us review the facts, take a good look inside and review the thought processes that lead to our decision making on subjects like this we will find a huge amount of room for improvement. We all want that.

[wynderer]

Go vegan now! Avoid the bad karma & save yourself from being penned, bred, & eaten by Reptilians! [you did say you welcomed different points of view, White Feather]

[13th Warrior]

This is a very convincing documentary .... medical evidence that can't be disputed .... of the links between health and a plant-based diet.

http://www.filmsforaction.org/Watch/Forks_Over_Knives_2011/

(May have been posted before...)

When was the video you posted "Forks Over Knives" produced?

[etm567]

Lets not forget the health issues of the animals that are factory farmed (living in stressed out situations, never seeing the light of day etc.) There meat simply becomes tainted from the environments they live in. And then we ingest their tainted meat, causing sickness to ourselves and our children. Karma is a bitch.

We have learned to just wait until the chickens that are raised halfway decently are on sale, then we buy as many as we can and freeze some. they are so much better than the others! And for so long we just felt we couldn't afford them. But now, we watch for the sales and buy many of the local "pastured" chickens at Whole Foods. Not that I love Whole Foods, but they are selling our local chickens.

I have also found a coop for raw milk and real eggs and many other things that I never though i could afford.

Also, we started to make our own yogurt. I make it a gallon or more at a time. We inhale it. Last time I made two gallons of yogurt from raw milk. Yummy, good for you, too. And much, much, much CHEAPER!

As to pork and beef, haven't dealt with that one yet. But we are happy that we have solved the chicken problem and are no longer eating chickens that had their beaks cut off.

ETM

[WhiteFeather]

Go vegan now! Avoid the bad karma & save yourself from being penned, bred, & eaten by Reptilians! [you did say you welcomed different points of view, White Feather]

I did, and I Love You for that. : )

[pugwash84]

I'm sorry, I watched a bit but I just can't watch it all because it makes me cry. I am trying to go vegetarian and I think this is the push I needed, thank you :) I just can't watch it all because I am a very empathetic person and it will make me depressed and too upset.

[WhiteFeather]

I'm sorry, I watched a bit but I just can't watch it all because it makes me cry. I am trying to go vegetarian and I think this is the push I needed, thank you :) I just can't watch it all because I am a very empathetic person and it will make me depressed and too upset.

Glad to hear it Pugwash. : )

[13th Warrior]

This documentary is very convincing, explaining the undeniable health benefits of a plant-based diet.

http://www.filmsforaction.org/Watch/Forks_Over_Knives_2011/
(May have been posted before but worth a repost!)

I've watched this video and have a few comments:

It was apparently released in 2011 but, is loaded with old footage; if find that kind of odd...

I am unconvinced by the main study cited against animal protein. The inference that by feeding casein to rats increased the growth of tumors and thus animal proteins will as well is wholly misleading...

By this very same logic one could say that vegetable sugars cause obesity and diabetes because when high fructose corn syrup is feed to rats these symptom become prevalent...

Do you see the problem? They've used a processed compound in the experiment. Had they feed the rats animal protein in the form of milk and not processed casein i'd find the findings more convincing.

In regards to the testimonials; you can take any person who hasn't been on a regulated diet, nor a consistent exercise program and put them on a strict diet and an exercise program and see very dramatic increases in their health markers (including the Atkins diet) .

All of this said; i am an advocate of a more vegetarian diet but, not to the exclusion of some animal protein and fat.

[WhiteFeather]

IMO,,,,Eating animal DNA also lowers our frequencys/ vibration thus hindering spiritual growth and spiritual evolution. Again its my opinion.

[13th Warrior]

IMO,,,,Eating animal DNA also lowers our frequencys/ vibration thus hindering spiritual growth and spiritual evolution. Again its my opinion.

Again, i wish this were true...

Many who claim this seem to have the least amount of compassion and tolerance for those who are not strictly vegan; this has been demonstrated on this forum with regularity and consistency (not referencing this thread or you in particular).

Many seem to place higher values on animals then their fellow humans by wishing unto death anyone involved in the killing of animals without knowing the individuals involved or what their having to deal with in their lives...

What is your position on breast feeding a child?

After all breast milk is animal protein...

[seigiarchon]

A drug addict asks the policeman, "can we agree that some of us require DRUGS?"

[modwiz]

IMO,,,,Eating animal DNA also lowers our frequencys/ vibration thus hindering spiritual growth and spiritual evolution. Again its my opinion.


What is your position on breast feeding a child?

After all breast milk is animal protein...

This is such a morally impoverished question I feel dirty addressing it. Either that or it is intellectual poverty. Mammals feed their young with their own milk. This is natural and nurturing and affords immunity. The DNA involved is the same, so there is no 'lowering' of vibration because it is one and the same. To take a subject about factory farm meat consumption and twist it into a question of mothers milk suggests drug/alcohol usage.

Your supposed point is an, out of context to the subject, disingenuous, absurdity.

The point WF makes about lower vibration is well made here. Like him, it is my opinion.

Factory farming is an abomination. Support of it once the true nature of the horrors involved are known makes one an accomplice to this crime. The crime is factory farming and not breast-feeding or hunting. Humane raising of animals is not for me, but that is a different subject and one best left to the conscience of the consumer.

I hope this is clear enough.


After all breast milk is an animal protein What a ridiculous retort.

[Tane Mahuta]

Thinking of your diet becoming a plant based one in the future perhaps? Here are two reasons why it might just change your mind someday!

On This Thread, User discretion is advised.

2 Reasons:

1. The cruel treatment of animals in slaughter houses from factory farming.
2. The need to raise our frequency's by choosing a plant based diet. And Eating meat may actually hinder our spiritual growth.

Love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Think Different, Eat Different!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrq1wTkMzDY&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3Dmeat%2Bvideo%26oq%3Dmeat%2Bvideo%26aq%3 Df%26aqi%3Dg3g-m7%26aql%3D%26gs_l%3Dyoutube.12..0l3j0i5l7.2912l56 97l0l13533l12l12l1l0l0l0l60l598l11l11l0.

A link from Pane Andov's Website:
Pane Andov On Animal Slaughter (http://paneandov.com/%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D 0%B0-%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B2%D0%B0%D 0%B0%D1%82-%D0%B7%D0%B0-%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8-%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B8/)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys


Here's another horrible...A must watch!!

Viewer discrection IS reccomended.

TM

[modwiz]

Thinking of your diet becoming a plant based one in the future perhaps? Here are two reasons why it might just change your mind someday!

On This Thread, User discretion is advised.

2 Reasons:

1. The cruel treatment of animals in slaughter houses from factory farming.
2. The need to raise our frequency's by choosing a plant based diet. And Eating meat may actually hinder our spiritual growth.

Love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Think Different, Eat Different!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrq1wTkMzDY&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3Dmeat%2Bvideo%26oq%3Dmeat%2Bvideo%26aq%3 Df%26aqi%3Dg3g-m7%26aql%3D%26gs_l%3Dyoutube.12..0l3j0i5l7.2912l56 97l0l13533l12l12l1l0l0l0l60l598l11l11l0.

A link from Pane Andov's Website:
Pane Andov On Animal Slaughter (http://paneandov.com/%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D 0%B0-%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B2%D0%B0%D 0%B0%D1%82-%D0%B7%D0%B0-%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8-%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B8/)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys


Here's another horrible...A must watch!!

Viewer discrection IS reccomended.

TM

The only people who should watch, IMO, are the ones whose plates demand the product. All others should spare themselves the trauma of this horrific practice. It is hard to get such images out of the mind once put in there. Unless you ingest this foul product I would counsel against ingesting the imagery. Otherwise, inform yourself. Know how what ends up on your plate, what you demand and support with your money, got there.

Thanks for the generous warning on this video TM.

[blufire]

To those who think we should all be vegetarian or vegan.

I’m going to try to make an apple to apples comparison here.

Help me to understand . . . . .

If eating meat produced from animal factory farming will lower all people’s vibration and spiritual level. Because the animals live an inhumane and cruel life before slaughtered and consumed.

Then those (most of us) who wear clothing and/or use products that are made in overseas factories are just as low vibrating and spiritually devoid. These factories are inhumane to the people who work there. Child labor, dangerous filthy conditions, little pay, 18 to 20 hour days, 7 days a week . . . . . present day horrendous human slavery.

How is this any different?

Whitefeather (as others have) makes the broad statement that we should not eat any meat at all and that we should all be vegetarian or vegan.


IMO,,,,Eating animal DNA also lowers our frequencys/ vibration thus hindering spiritual growth and spiritual evolution. Again its my opinion

The lines are too blurred. Is it animal DNA from factory raised animals or ALL animal protein?

Should we not wear any clothing at all or make a stand only against clothing and products made in the inhumane slave factories?

And if we make that distinction then how do we humanely produce meat for the majority of the people who eat meat, as well as, how do we take care of the people whose very lives depend on working in these cruel overseas factories? Are you willing to send money or other means to support the people so they don't have to work in these factories for a meager inhumane existence?

If we make these broad general, guilt laden, damning statements then what are the practical realistic solutions?

[modwiz]

To those who think we should all be vegetarian or vegan.

I’m going to try to make an apple to apples comparison here.

Help me to understand . . . . .

If eating meat produced from animal factory farming will lower all people’s vibration and spiritual level. Because the animals live an inhumane and cruel life before slaughtered and consumed.

Then those (most of us) who wear clothing and/or use products that are made in overseas factories are just as low vibrating and spiritually devoid. These factories are inhumane to the people who work there. Child labor, dangerous filthy conditions, little pay, 18 to 20 hour days, 7 days a week . . . . . present day horrendous human slavery.

How is this any different?



Apples to apples? No way. The animals have no choice, period, end of story. The people who work in the factories have decided to work there. There must be choices because all people in China (or other such countries) do not have to make that choice. Some have very nice jobs. Is there a comparison in the factory farming situation where some cows can just do what they want, or opt for the grass fed pasture life? Apple to apples indeed. Like 13th warrior, your comparison show a twisted logic at best, and none at all in reality.

The people defending the practice of factory farming are exhibiting a marked disposition toward non-arguments and straying from true comparisons. Interesting observation. Maybe it's diet.

Although your comparison is nonsense, I believe not purchasing products that exploit humans is a commendable practice. Glad you brought it up. Identifying the companies that bring such products to market could be helpful. I wonder if the people who make their meager livings in these factories would be so happy to lose their jobs though. Bad times trump starvation. Do you think the factory farm animals would have any such reservations about this practice though, in your so-called apples to apples comparison? Do you see the obtuse argument you try to make now?

Apple is one company that is an egregious example of this human exploitation and it is one of the secrets to their high profits. Purchasers and stockholders would send a powerful message by not buying and divestment. Just as consumers of factory farmed meat would send a powerful message by not consuming that product. Look what happened to pink slime. In the short run at least.

Once again, to bring this argument back to point. This is about factory farming with omnivorous habits as a tangential, but logical tag along. I prefer to keep it about factory farming and not the actual flesh eating. Flesh eating is a very emotional issue as is amply displayed here and emotional issues to not lend themselves to intellectual debates. Intellect and emotions are apples and lettuce.

Just as global warming and pollution often get mixed together for maximum confusion, factory farming and flesh consumption often conflate to the detriment of a solid discussion. I believe the evils of factory farming can be discussed objectively. Diet cannot.

[blufire]

Do you truly think that a father or mother in these countries and working in these slave factories have the choice?

Their only choice or option is to work in the slave factories and earn a meager existence to feed and cloth their babies or even themselves.

How is this choice?

Meat producing animal factories for human consumption is no different than product producing human slave factories for human consumption.

Again what are the practical solutions for the majority of the population that consume meat?

What are the practical or logical solutions to wearing or using products manufactured in slave factories?

We have to stop demanding change if we offer no solution to change to . . . .

Also, it would help greatly in our discussion if you wouldn’t sling hurtful words, accusations and phrases to try to slam members like me or 13th Warrior, who offer opposing view points.

[modwiz]

Do you truly think that a father or mother in these countries and working in these slave factories have the choice?

Their only choice or option is to work in the slave factories and earn a meager existence to feed and cloth their babies or even themselves.

How is this choice?

Meat producing animal factories for human consumption is no different than product producing human slave factories for human consumption.

Again what are the practical solutions for the majority of the population that consume meat?

What are the practical or logical solutions to wearing or using products manufactured in slave factories?

We have to stop demanding change if we offer no solution to change to . . . .

Also, it would help greatly in our discussion if you wouldn’t sling hurtful words, accusations and phrases to try to slam members like me or 13th Warrior, who offer opposing view points.

You call them opposing. I call them disingenuous or misguided and I mean it. They are ridiculous in their opposition. They are fake as true mirrors to the situation. They hold no weight. It is completely dishonest or wrong headed, to compare miserable working conditions, where there is always a choice. The metaphysical and spiritual implications of humans and choice is fundamental to understanding our innate divinity. Without that understanding as a centerpiece, however unspoken it is, to the discussion it is impossible to have any conversation that does not result in one of us talking past the other. Such a dialogue would be futile, fruitless and a waste of both of our time.

Factory farm animals are consigned to hell by us and our choices. The unfortunate factory workers are part of a bigger drama between us all. Using them as an opposition to the fate of the tortured animals whose death is the only mercy they will have in their horrific existence is to make no argument at all unless the subject is your own ability to have an honest dialogue. I feel politicked by such attempts to tell me an orange is an apple.

It must be the diet. I mean that.

I have observed you closely Blufire. I feel we have no future in this conversation. Feel free to respond if it equals things out. You can have the last words. I am sure they will speak for themselves.

Let us meet in other threads where some common ground is to be found. The Green Scam thread is a good example.

[blufire]

How does a very few becoming vegan or vegetarian SOLVE anything?

How does this stop the karma that you and whitefeather say is produced.

Is it all animal protein? or only the animal protein from the factory farms?

How does you not eating meat end the karma . . .even on a personal level?

Stop condemning the majority of the world population who at least eat some meat if you offer no real solutions for them.

And I mean that.

[modwiz]

Hey, Whitefeather. Have you condemned anybody lately or have you just offered to let your heart speak on an opinion you have?

[blufire]

Oh good grief modwiz . . . I have observed you closely too . . . and you always back out after you throw a few zingers when someone offers a solid opposing view.

You said the following about me over in the “green energy scam thread”:


You are a wayshower Blufire. Do not second guess yourself. Turkeys will always try to convince eagles they are showing off for flying so high.

If this is truly how you feel about me then consider that I may be trying to “show a different way” here. I will not second guess myself with this subject.

Are you being a turkey to my eagle here on this thread or perhaps you feel I am the turkey to your eagle??

[WhiteFeather]

Give it a try one day Bluefire, youll be suprised at the results. I mean that as well.

[modwiz]

Oh good grief modwiz . . . I have observed you closely too . . . and you always back out after you throw a few zingers when someone offers a solid opposing view.

You said the following about me over in the “green energy scam thread”:


You are a wayshower Blufire. Do not second guess yourself. Turkeys will always try to convince eagles they are showing off for flying so high.

If this is truly how you feel about me then consider that I may be trying to “show a different way” here. I will not second guess myself with this subject.

Are you being a turkey to my eagle here on this thread or perhaps you feel I am the turkey to your eagle??

Blufire. I do not back out. I choose to not beat dead horses and create any more stink than necessary.I do not wish to mix threads any more than I would prepare food after using the toilet. If you had a solid opposing view there might be somewhere to go. You have a solid emotional response to a given subject here. Your argument was non-existent. Don't continue to delude yourself thinking you made any sense at all. Nothing but wishin' and hopin', like Dusty Springfield sang.

I meant what I said in the quote. I look for places to admire and acknowledge people. To do less would lower my vibration. Do you find it so hard to believe that I can have a good opinion about you? I am not at all black and white, but delight in nuances. I know it is often not apparent because nuance is not part of our culture and so it flies under the radar. I know you know I am subtle, you have the mental acuity for it. It is why I will take you to task when your argument is raggedy. If you had a real one you would be able to make it. What we eat is an emotional subject. Emotions are terrible debaters.

[blufire]

All animal protein or only animal protein from the slaughter houses, guys?

What is the solution for even a portion of the world population? Even the beginning of a solution that is practical . . . . .

Your title whitefeather says ”time for a change” how do we proceed to do that?

Two years ago I fell for the “guilt trip” and went 6 months on a full vegetarian diet and it took me almost a full year to recover from the damage

[blufire]

I am not coming from an emotional place. I am asking a solid question . . . the lines between animal factory produced meat and meat produced by other means is too blurred and not defined.

In this thread we are only given one option . . .become vegetarian or vegan or rot in karmic hell

I refuse to believe this is a logical and compassionate solution for the majority of humanity.

[modwiz]

I am not coming from an emotional place. I am asking a solid question . . . the lines between animal factory produced meat and meat produced by other means is too blurred and not defined.

In this thread we are only given one option . . .become vegetarian or vegan or rot in karmic hell

I refuse to believe this is a logical and compassionate solution for the majority of humanity.

Kinda depends on whether you believe in such a karmic hell, doesn't it. You don't. It is really OK to ignore such notions and chomp away on your favorite critter. I am just a poster in a thread and my focus is factory farming. I left the diet argument along time ago. I have my opinion and it informs my dietary practices and I will share that opinion where applicable.

I am very comfortable with a saying attributed to Jesus. That what things come from a person, or out of them is more important than what goes into them. This statement was addressing the very strict dietary rules of the Judeans. Factory farming is really not about diet in the strict sense. It is a practice that speaks to our very decency as a species sharing the earth with others. The only reason for them and the 'pink slime' side products they produce is profit. Nothing other than profit. Hormones, antibiotics are all for profit and have nothing to to with feeding humanity. That is a false and empty argument made by the liars who lie about everything they do to retain control of as much as they can.

Whatever you eat, eat with good conscience and health. I walk with Gaia and see the predator and prey relationship and see it as part of a natural expression of things. I do not need to be a part of it and choose not to. To condemn a natural harvesting of food, whatever it is, from the environment would be highly hypocritical, even irreverent of me. I do observe the effects that food has on myself and others. My diet suits the person I wish to be. Some may say, "So, you eat to be as asshole?". We are entitled to our own opinions.

[modwiz]

I am not coming from an emotional place. I am asking a solid question . . . the lines between animal factory produced meat and meat produced by other means is too blurred and not defined.

In this thread we are only given one option . . .become vegetarian or vegan or rot in karmic hell

I refuse to believe this is a logical and compassionate solution for the majority of humanity.

You need glasses then. There is no blurriness. Obfuscation perhaps because the the producers know that this knowledge is bad for business. Looking away will also produce blurry vision or its' equivalent. Knowledge of the sources of some foodstuffs can be uncomfortable. Most will do what they can to avoid discomfort. It is only natural, even if not so moral, in this particular instance.

The producers of good meats are proud of it and will make sure you know it. The rest is factory farm stuff. As long as people buy it they will sell it. They are psychopaths and could care less about any feelings animal, vegetable or mineral, as long as those feelings do not impact their profits.

All of these posts have made my vision blurry. Break time.

[WhiteFeather]

In my paranormal research/studies and with much reference to our universal star family, is as they evolved to a higher spiritual measure.

Their diet was quite significant (as spoken by Alex Collier on his knowledge that the Andromedans were fruitaterians) this i believe just might be a key to unlock higher spiritual growth or evolvement perhaps. Are we still primitive man, im sure in their eyes we still are primitive. This is what resonates with me. Be it discarded or accepted that is choice. Just Sharing this concept with Avalon is all. And It all makes clear sense to me. My God Its Full Of Stars. Be Love Anyways ≈W.f.≈

[13th Warrior]

IMO,,,,Eating animal DNA also lowers our frequencys/ vibration thus hindering spiritual growth and spiritual evolution. Again its my opinion.


What is your position on breast feeding a child?

After all breast milk is animal protein...

This is such a morally impoverished question I feel dirty addressing it. Either that or it is intellectual poverty. Mammals feed their young with their own milk. This is natural and nurturing and affords immunity. The DNA involved is the same, so there is no 'lowering' of vibration because it is one and the same. To take a subject about factory farm meat consumption and twist it into a question of mothers milk suggests drug/alcohol usage.

Your supposed point is an, out of context to the subject, disingenuous, absurdity.

The point WF makes about lower vibration is well made here. Like him, it is my opinion.

Factory farming is an abomination. Support of it once the true nature of the horrors involved are known makes one an accomplice to this crime. The crime is factory farming and not breast-feeding or hunting. Humane raising of animals is not for me, but that is a different subject and one best left to the conscience of the consumer.

I hope this is clear enough.


After all breast milk is an animal protein What a ridiculous retort.

Modwiz,

Is this what "higher vibration" looks like?

You can display plenty of cynicism and a general disdane for humans for someone who claims to have a diet that supports a higher vibration...


To take a subject about factory farm meat consumption and twist it into a question of mothers milk suggests drug/alcohol usage.

Wow! I wasn't comparing breast feeding to factory farming; in fact that notion had never crossed my mind...and to suggest that's what i was inferring is absurd!

None of my comments on this subject have ever been in support of factory farming!

[13th Warrior]

In my paranormal research/studies and with much reference to our universal star family, is as they evolved to a higher spiritual measure.

Their diet was quite significant (as spoken by Alex Collier on his knowledge that the Andromedans were fruitaterians) this i believe just might be a key to unlock higher spiritual growth or evolvement perhaps. Are we still primitive man, im sure in their eyes we still are primitive. This is what resonates with me. Be it discarded or accepted that is choice. Just Sharing this concept with Avalon is all. And It all makes clear sense to me. My God Its Full Of Stars. Be Love Anyways ≈W.f.≈


White Feather,

I support your choice; i my self have pursued a vegan diet for similar reasons but, fail to see those results.

I hope you have greater success!

[modwiz]

IMO,,,,Eating animal DNA also lowers our frequencys/ vibration thus hindering spiritual growth and spiritual evolution. Again its my opinion.


What is your position on breast feeding a child?

After all breast milk is animal protein...

This is such a morally impoverished question I feel dirty addressing it. Either that or it is intellectual poverty. Mammals feed their young with their own milk. This is natural and nurturing and affords immunity. The DNA involved is the same, so there is no 'lowering' of vibration because it is one and the same. To take a subject about factory farm meat consumption and twist it into a question of mothers milk suggests drug/alcohol usage.

Your supposed point is an, out of context to the subject, disingenuous, absurdity.

The point WF makes about lower vibration is well made here. Like him, it is my opinion.

Factory farming is an abomination. Support of it once the true nature of the horrors involved are known makes one an accomplice to this crime. The crime is factory farming and not breast-feeding or hunting. Humane raising of animals is not for me, but that is a different subject and one best left to the conscience of the consumer.

I hope this is clear enough.


After all breast milk is an animal protein What a ridiculous retort.

Modwiz,

Is this what "higher vibration" looks like?

You can display plenty of cynicism and a general disdane for humans for someone who claims to have a diet that supports a higher vibration...


To take a subject about factory farm meat consumption and twist it into a question of mothers milk suggests drug/alcohol usage.

Wow! I wasn't comparing breast feeding to factory farming; in fact that notion had never crossed my mind...and to suggest that's what i was inferring is absurd!

None of my comments on this subject have ever been in support of factory farming!

A question about mother's milk being suitable food is a strange one and one that cannot be taken seriously. Only purveyors of unnatural foods like baby formulas would ever speak ill of mother milk. Introducing it as a topic for discussion seemed snarky.

I accept that factory farming was not part of it. My bad.

Let there be no bad feeling from this. Keeping the vibration as high as possible is important.

Next topic!

[13th Warrior]

My breast milk statement was a leading question to address the general notion that humans don't need animal protein in their diet.

Someone always brings up the example of some athlete that's vegan like the MMA fighter from the posted video on this tread. Sure the guy is fit and healthy on his current diet but, he said he used to eat chicken and fish. So, during the most critical growth stages of his young life he had some animal protein in his diet.

My question is: At what age should a person start a vegan diet? How long would you nurse your child before starting them on a vegan diet?

[WhiteFeather]

An interesting perspective by Mr Astralwalker. Be known there is a slight language barrier. Listen closely.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hs9DqX-4Ak&feature=player_embedded#!

[13th Warrior]

An interesting perspective by Mr Astralwalker. Be known there is a slight language barrier. Listen closely.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hs9DqX-4Ak&feature=player_embedded#!

Ok, i'm going to comment before watching the video (which is usually a bad idea).

All life on Earth goes thought the same life cycle; every organism survives on this plane by feeding upon another organism...this is the way of the world.

Plants have a given life as well as animals; i place no greater importance of one above the other...

[modwiz]

My breast milk statement was a leading question to address the general notion that humans don't need animal protein in their diet.

Someone always brings up the example of some athlete that's vegan like the MMA fighter from the posted video on this tread. Sure the guy is fit and healthy on his current diet but, he said he used to eat chicken and fish. So, during the most critical growth stages of his young life he has some animal protein in his diet.

My question is: At what age should a person start a vegan diet? How long would you nurse your child before starting them on a vegan diet?

I think nursing should continue till either the child or mother is done with the process. My granddaughter was raised vegan. Her father remained omnivorous. The mother has shifted somewhat but the granddaughter chooses to continue to be largely vegan but is free to eat what she will. She was much healthier and smarter than most children around her. A little smaller because of the lack of growth hormones.

I will reiterate that diet is personal, but factory farming is evil and all of the practices of that industry are profit, and not health, driven. It is the wonder of the human body and spirit that allows us to eat crap and often thrive anyway.

I love yogurt but eat it only occasionally. The bacterial cultures of yogurt have their origins in the human gut and then convert whatever milk it grows in to something with a very strong human DNA friendly vibration. The living bacteria within the yogurt have an ancient symbiotic relationship with our species to the point that our health, digestion and certain vitamins like B12 rely heavily on their generous presence on the lining of our large intestines. Their absence is the root of much disease in our species.

Yogurt is a unique class of food because of this.

[WhiteFeather]

Are we not much more evolved than any other species to know better. Or are we still primitive man. It makes me wonder. Hopefully we will all understand one day how we are all connected to everything of this planet and the infinite universe.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ky2JQq8lag

[blufire]

I really do apologize . . . .but I swear no matter how I look at this issue I can’t resolve a foundation to build from, if I come from the vegetarian/ vegan point of view.

Understand I do NOT support factory farming of ANY kind . . . animal or plant.

Most of my life I have raised and preserved almost all my food . . . meat, fruit and vegetables.

Perhaps because I have raised, harvested and thankfully consumed all these different forms of sentient beings I do not see the difference between eating sentient meat OR sentient plants.

The fact horrendous animal factory farming exists is no more my personal karmic responsibility than the horrendous gmo factory farming of plants.

Because I was born and raised in the south, I have a very defined deep southern accent and there have been many times I have been accused of being racists and also it has been inferred because of my southern heritage that slavery is somehow my fault and/or that I somehow support it. So only because I grew up in the south and have a distinct southern accent I also have inherited the negative karma of the southern slave owners??? I see no difference as a meat eater. How am I karmically responsible for the tragic existence animal farms simple because I responsibly and humanely raise and eat meat?

If I adopt the ideology that I should not eat meat solely because of factory farming and slaughter then logically I would have to apply the same to factory genetically mutation and farming of plants.

I would not live long in my way of thinking because then I would have nothing to eat in the fear of karmic responsibility.

I respect and have compassion and understanding and humbleness for all the life forces that sustain my life. I am a sentient human being, all animals are sentient and all plant life is sentient. Every LIVING thing is made up of the same DNA, amino acids and proteins (building blocks of ALL life) . . . they are simply arranged differently

So could someone logically and unemotionally explain the difference to me?

[WhiteFeather]

I really do apologize . . . .but I swear no matter how I look at this issue I can’t resolve a foundation to build from, if I come from the vegetarian/ vegan point of view.

Understand I do NOT support factory farming of ANY kind . . . animal or plant.

Most of my life I have raised and preserved almost all my food . . . meat, fruit and vegetables.

Perhaps because I have raised, harvested and thankfully consumed all these different forms of sentient beings I do not see the difference between eating sentient meat OR sentient plants.

The fact horrendous animal factory farming exists is no more my personal karmic responsibility than the horrendous gmo factory farming of plants.

Because I was born and raised in the south, I have a very defined deep southern accent and there have been many times I have been accused of being racists and also it has been inferred because of my southern heritage that slavery is somehow my fault and/or that I somehow support it. So only because I grew up in the south and have a distinct southern accent I also have inherited the negative karma of the southern slave owners??? I see no difference as a meat eater. How am I karmically responsible for the tragic existence animal farms simple because I responsibly and humanely raise and eat meat?

If I adopt the ideology that I should not eat meat solely because of factory farming and slaughter then logically I would have to apply the same to factory genetically mutation and farming of plants.

I would not live long in my way of thinking because then I would have nothing to eat in the fear of karmic responsibility.

I respect and have compassion and understanding and humbleness for all the life forces that sustain my life. I am a sentient human being, all animals are sentient and all plant life is sentient. Every LIVING thing is made up of the same DNA, amino acids and proteins (building blocks of ALL life) . . . they are simply arranged differently

So could someone logically and unemotionally explain the difference to me?

Only your innerself can explain this blufire. My innerself differs from yours. And I do respect you for that. Your opinion is well documented and recorded. All of my Love Sis. XXXOOO ≈W.F.≈

[Paladin14]

An interesting perspective by Mr Astralwalker. Be known there is a slight language barrier. Listen closely.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hs9DqX-4Ak&feature=player_embedded#!

This vid was the catalyst in making me realize that I shouldn't be eating animals altogether, even if it was just once in a while.
I already knew meat wasn't a necessity for our health, but this led me to realize that I wasn't being the most compassionate person.

A conversation with a girlfriend got me off on a little rant after her testing me on not eating meat anymore. I talked about the health stuff and then I ended with something like "its not my job to make you a more compassionate human being, my purpose in life is to evolve in every way- physically, spiritually, morally... and I'm done with eating meat, you can do whatever you want to do with your life."

I know all animals make decisions and have consciousness. Fish and birds perform mating rituals, some mimic other species for survival- there's intellect and desire there. After coming to the realization that I've been ignorantly eating other slaughtered beings I am worried how much karma I have built up, and I hope to forgive myself of that karma by living the rest of this life increasing my vibration and love in every way.

[DeBron]

On animal slaughter: I do not see the difference between it and vegetable slaughter. They are both placed in cramped conditions and fed what will make them the most viable up to consumption. On both sides the methods used to get the produce/meat to your plate can be seen as deplorable.

Should we be kinder to what we are inevitably going to kill and consume? I don't know. I do know what it is like to destroy a life and then consume it. I do know what it is like to just purchase an already prepared meal and eat it. I prefer the latter for reasons of time and effort mainly.

The one thing that I try to remember is I intend for the food that I take into my body to be beneficial to me. Nothing that occurs to me is Bad, or good because the experience is why I am here.

Until you learn to get all nurishment from the ether you will have to kill something, break it down into much simplier things and use it to power your vessel.

But do eat more green things than anything else.

[Paladin14]

On animal slaughter: I do not see the difference between it and vegetable slaughter. They are both placed in cramped conditions and fed what will make them the most viable up to consumption. On both sides the methods used to get the produce/meat to your plate can be seen as deplorable.

Should we be kinder to what we are inevitably going to kill and consume? I don't know. I do know what it is like to destroy a life and then consume it. I do know what it is like to just purchase an already prepared meal and eat it. I prefer the latter for reasons of time and effort mainly.

The one thing that I try to remember is I intend for the food that I take into my body to be beneficial to me. Nothing that occurs to me is Bad, or good because the experience is why I am here.

Until you learn to get all nurishment from the ether you will have to kill something, break it down into much simplier things and use it to power your vessel.

But do eat more green things than anything else.

I hear ya, there are some plants that seem to have some decision space, the Venus flytrap plant being the most obvious example. I still see a big difference between plants and animals though, and I probably wouldn't eat that particular plant.

I guess the main difference to me is the emotions that animals show, where plants seem to be just sort of mechanical biological beings.

[STATIC]

I respect and have compassion and understanding and humbleness for all the life forces that sustain my life

If everyone was on this level we would be in a much more balanced environment.

In regards to your question. All is from source, so you are correct in asking this question.
I think it comes down to our emotional connection to certain life forms.
I personally don't feel any guilt for pulling a plant out of the ground, but I may not feel the same about something that has eyes.
It's about how we identify with certain aspects of the life forms around us.
Plants are obviously sentient, but you don't consider them to be very similar to yourself.
I think this is the root of the pain that many people feel when they see animals being slaughtered.
Cultivate respect for all life. I will suggest that to everyone, but the decision to not eat animals is one that only you can make.

[13th Warrior]

I respect and have compassion and understanding and humbleness for all the life forces that sustain my life

If everyone was on this level we would be in a much more balanced environment.

In regards to your question. All is from source, so you are correct in asking this question.
I think it comes down to our emotional connection to certain life forms.
I personally don't feel any guilt for pulling a plant out of the ground, but I may not feel the same about something that has eyes.
It's about how we identify with certain aspects of the life forms around us.
Plants are obviously sentient, but you don't consider them to be very similar to yourself.
I think this is the root of the pain that many people feel when they see animals being slaughtered.
Cultivate respect for all life. I will suggest that to everyone, but the decision to not eat animals is one that only you can make.


What about potatoes?

They have eyes. :p

[modwiz]

The consumption of fruits, nuts and leafy greens cropped but still free to continue growing are ways of obtaining high quality nutrition from the plant kingdom without any death to them. Just an observation and not a preaching. We all have out separate paths on this planet. As long as those paths do not negatively affect another, all is good. What someone else eats is none of my business, as long as they don't take all the fruit from my trees. :p

Insects are very nutritious and their sheer numbers scream that they are to be eaten by something.

[dan i el]

On animal slaughter: I do not see the difference between it and vegetable slaughter. .

Cerebral cortex and Limbic system...

[STATIC]

I respect and have compassion and understanding and humbleness for all the life forces that sustain my life

If everyone was on this level we would be in a much more balanced environment.

In regards to your question. All is from source, so you are correct in asking this question.
I think it comes down to our emotional connection to certain life forms.
I personally don't feel any guilt for pulling a plant out of the ground, but I may not feel the same about something that has eyes.
It's about how we identify with certain aspects of the life forms around us.
Plants are obviously sentient, but you don't consider them to be very similar to yourself.
I think this is the root of the pain that many people feel when they see animals being slaughtered.
Cultivate respect for all life. I will suggest that to everyone, but the decision to not eat animals is one that only you can make.


What about potatoes?

They have eyes. :p

lol , dam you MR potato head messed my whole comment up.


http://media1.picsearch.com/is?hpqg7RwSiRozk5W_haFIanx3cfZfjdZz0_WpC-avGmY

[Paladin14]

The consumption of fruits, nuts and leafy greens cropped but still free to continue growing are ways of obtaining high quality nutrition from the plant kingdom without any death to them. Just an observation and not a preaching. We all have out separate paths on this planet. As long as those paths do not negatively affect another, all is good. What someone else eats is none of my business, as long as they don't take all the fruit from my trees. :p

Insects are very nutritious and their sheer numbers scream that they are to be eaten by something.

this is the answer, thanks man! completely forgot about the next step after vegan- fruitarian. nothing is killed, just eating the reproductive organ of the plant, not the plant itself.

[RMorgan]

Hey Folks!

Thanks for this thread, my dear feathered friend! :)

Well, I´ve been a vegetarian (still eat organic milk and eggs) for 10 years now and I´m pretty happy with it.

I have spent a huge amount of time thinking about all possible philosophical, social and political questions regarding vegetarianism and I came to the conclusion that there isn´t absolutely any logical, coherent reason for people to eat meat.

For those willing to become vegetarians as well, check out a small list of very important characters who chose this diet. These folks were really way ahead of their time:

Pythagoras
580 – 500 BC
Greek mathematician and philosopher

Plato
428 – 347 BC
Greek philosopher

Plutarch
46 – 120 BC
Greek philosopher and biographer

St. Frances of Assisi
1182 – 1226
Italian founder of Franciscan order of friars

Leonardo da Vinci
1452 – 1519
Italian painter, architect and engineer
"One day the world will look upon research upon animals as it now looks upon research on human beings."

Martin Luther
1483 – 1546
German church reformer; founder of Protestantism

Sir Isaac Newton
1642 – 1727
English physicist and mathematician

Voltaire
1694 – 1778
French writer

John Wesley
1703 – 1791
English founder of Methodism

Benjamin Franklin
1706 – 1790
US scientist and diplomat; inventor of the lightning conductor

Ralph Waldo Emerson
1803 – 1882
US philosopher, essayist and poet

Hans Christian Andersen
1805 – 1875
Danish writer of fairy tales

Charlotte Bronte
1816 – 1855
English writer; author of Jane Eyre

Henry David Thoreau
1817 – 1862
US writer; back-to-nature exponent

Susan B. Anthony
1820 – 1906
US feminist and anti-slavery campaigner

Leo Tolstoy
1828 – 1910
Russian novelist; author of War and Peace
"A human can be healthy without killing animals for food. Therefore if he eats meat he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite."

Vincent Van Gogh
1853 – 1890
Dutch Post-Impressionist painter

George Bernard Shaw
1856 - 1950
Irish dramatist, novelist and socialist
"It is nearly fifty years since I was assured by a conclave of doctors that if I did not eat meat I should die of starvation." (He lived a healthy life and died aged 94.)

Henry Ford
1863 – 1947
US car manufacturer

Mahatma Gandhi
1869 – 1948
Indian nationalist leader and advocate of non-violence

Albert Schweitzer
1875 – 1965
French theologian, missionary and Nobel Peace Prize winner

Albert Einstein
1879 – 1955
Swiss-German scientist; author of the theories of relativity
"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."

H.G. Wells
1886 – 1946
English science fiction writer

Tony Benn
1925 -
British socialist politician

By the way, I have a question for the long term vegetarians around here. Do you take any vitamin supplements?

My latest blood testes have very good results, but I´ve been reading about the huge importance of supplementing Omega 3 (from linseed or linseed oil), specially for vegetarians. What do you think?

Also, do you take any B12 supplements?

Cheers,

Raf.

Ps: Your diet is a personal choice. You´re not better or worse than nobody, by eating meat or not. Respect everyone for their choices if you want people to respect you for yours.

[STATIC]

Do any of you suggest any particular resources websites, books, video's for someone starting out on this path.
Much appreciated.

[modwiz]

I really do apologize . . . .but I swear no matter how I look at this issue I can’t resolve a foundation to build from, if I come from the vegetarian/ vegan point of view.

Understand I do NOT support factory farming of ANY kind . . . animal or plant.

Most of my life I have raised and preserved almost all my food . . . meat, fruit and vegetables.

Perhaps because I have raised, harvested and thankfully consumed all these different forms of sentient beings I do not see the difference between eating sentient meat OR sentient plants.

The fact horrendous animal factory farming exists is no more my personal karmic responsibility than the horrendous gmo factory farming of plants.

Because I was born and raised in the south, I have a very defined deep southern accent and there have been many times I have been accused of being racists and also it has been inferred because of my southern heritage that slavery is somehow my fault and/or that I somehow support it. So only because I grew up in the south and have a distinct southern accent I also have inherited the negative karma of the southern slave owners??? I see no difference as a meat eater. How am I karmically responsible for the tragic existence animal farms simple because I responsibly and humanely raise and eat meat?

If I adopt the ideology that I should not eat meat solely because of factory farming and slaughter then logically I would have to apply the same to factory genetically mutation and farming of plants.

I would not live long in my way of thinking because then I would have nothing to eat in the fear of karmic responsibility.

I respect and have compassion and understanding and humbleness for all the life forces that sustain my life. I am a sentient human being, all animals are sentient and all plant life is sentient. Every LIVING thing is made up of the same DNA, amino acids and proteins (building blocks of ALL life) . . . they are simply arranged differently

So could someone logically and unemotionally explain the difference to me?

If I may, just the Southern, slave owning aspect of this. It is my very recent understanding that the South has been villainized by the usual suspects who own publishing houses and get to write enough of history so as to effect its trajectory and perception. The slave owners of the South were the one percent of their time, the equivalent of our CEO's and other parasites. The Civil War was another divide and conquer tactic by the unseen forces of international banking and control. Once the common man gets control of history again we will be able to heal ourselves and turn whatever anger remains at those who created the rifts. Hopefully, we will have grown past revenge and the parasites just die out from honest work or the fact that they have no purpose.

Both Africans and Native Americans have done much of the soul work to leave the wrongs in the past. They have not forgotten, but have largely forgiven. There is only disease in revenge. Species hygiene is another topic.

[RMorgan]

Hi my friend,

Well, I guess it´s easier than you think. I don´t think any videos or books are essential.

Is your diet already balanced? If it is, just take out the meat. It´s as simple as that.

Anyway, there´s a nice recent documentary called Forks over Knives, which shows several medical cases where serious diseases were easily cured by changing to a vegetarian diet. I think you´ll like it. It´s very well produced.

Cheers,

Raf.


Do any of you suggest any particular resources websites, books, video's for someone starting out on this path.
Much appreciated.

[modwiz]

Hey Folks!

Thanks for this thread, my dear feathered friend! :)

Well, I´ve been a vegetarian (still eat organic milk and eggs) for 10 years now and I´m pretty happy with it.

I have spent a huge amount of time thinking about all possible philosophical, social and political questions regarding vegetarianism and I came to the conclusion that there isn´t absolutely any logical, coherent reason for people to eat meat.

For those willing to become vegetarians as well, check out a small list of very important characters who chose this diet. These folks were really way ahead of their time:

Pythagoras
580 – 500 BC
Greek mathematician and philosopher

Plato
428 – 347 BC
Greek philosopher

Plutarch
46 – 120 BC
Greek philosopher and biographer

St. Frances of Assisi
1182 – 1226
Italian founder of Franciscan order of friars

Leonardo da Vinci
1452 – 1519
Italian painter, architect and engineer
"One day the world will look upon research upon animals as it now looks upon research on human beings."

Martin Luther
1483 – 1546
German church reformer; founder of Protestantism

Sir Isaac Newton
1642 – 1727
English physicist and mathematician

Voltaire
1694 – 1778
French writer

John Wesley
1703 – 1791
English founder of Methodism

Benjamin Franklin
1706 – 1790
US scientist and diplomat; inventor of the lightning conductor

Ralph Waldo Emerson
1803 – 1882
US philosopher, essayist and poet

Hans Christian Andersen
1805 – 1875
Danish writer of fairy tales

Charlotte Bronte
1816 – 1855
English writer; author of Jane Eyre

Henry David Thoreau
1817 – 1862
US writer; back-to-nature exponent

Susan B. Anthony
1820 – 1906
US feminist and anti-slavery campaigner

Leo Tolstoy
1828 – 1910
Russian novelist; author of War and Peace
"A human can be healthy without killing animals for food. Therefore if he eats meat he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite."

Vincent Van Gogh
1853 – 1890
Dutch Post-Impressionist painter

George Bernard Shaw
1856 - 1950
Irish dramatist, novelist and socialist
"It is nearly fifty years since I was assured by a conclave of doctors that if I did not eat meat I should die of starvation." (He lived a healthy life and died aged 94.)

Henry Ford
1863 – 1947
US car manufacturer

Mahatma Gandhi
1869 – 1948
Indian nationalist leader and advocate of non-violence

Albert Schweitzer
1875 – 1965
French theologian, missionary and Nobel Peace Prize winner

Albert Einstein
1879 – 1955
Swiss-German scientist; author of the theories of relativity
"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."

H.G. Wells
1886 – 1946
English science fiction writer

Tony Benn
1925 -
British socialist politician

By the way, I have a question for the long term vegetarians around here. Do you take any vitamin supplements?

My latest blood testes have very good results, but I´ve been reading about the huge importance of supplementing Omega 3 (from linseed or linseed oil), specially for vegetarians. What do you think?

Also, do you take any B12 supplements?

Cheers,

Raf.

Ps: Your diet is a personal choice. You´re not better or worse than nobody, by eating meat or not. Respect everyone for their choices if you want people to respect you for yours.

D3 during the Winter only and only when I remember. B complex for my joints when they get beat up. I do not take B12 and do my best to not wash fruits or veggies because of all of the B12 producing bacteria that live there. Growing your own stuff is best because you never spray anything on them. If bugs are eating them it is a sign of inferior or ill plants. Our Mother does not like imperfect DNA reproducing and sends the insects to clean up the junk DNA. I have an Iron supplement that I take only if I am noticing the loginess that comes for Iron levels dropping to low. The lack of sufficient Oxygen has a very distinct feel to it once you've tuned in. Eating spinach and beets, (juicing with carrots is an excellent way to get sufficient amounts), will usually supply all of the iron you will need. Iron is in many foods but those two are loaded.

I only supplement based on feedback from my body. Flaxseed oil, the refrigerated one, is great for the right Omega balances. Adding the seeds to whatever works is a brilliant way to do it. A well balanced, organic diet is usually all that is needed, IMO. Supplements are more marketing than required nutrition. Organic cannot be stressed enough if you want proper nutrition. Government agencies getting involved on the organic markets becasue of the prices people in the know are will to pay for their health, have been a bad influence. Arresting huge swathes of these parasites and criminals will help get organic back to where it belongs.

Just my 22 years of experience and uber health speaking here. Some still get stuck thinking veggie is somehow deficient and need to make up with all kinds of other things. They are entitled to their opinions. The makers of supplements will be glad for their business.

[modwiz]

Do any of you suggest any particular resources websites, books, video's for someone starting out on this path.
Much appreciated.

Remember, no dutiful or penance eating. If you do not absolutely adore and thrive on your diet do not follow it. Blufire is correct to follow her guidance. I cannot explain the mechanics of it, but the details are not required. Eating has a lot of levels associated with it and they are all personal.

[13th Warrior]

Do any of you suggest any particular resources websites, books, video's for someone starting out on this path.
Much appreciated.

I like David Wolf for super foods.

Mark Bittman's book "How To Cook Everything Vegetarian"

Buy Local

Use color as your nutrition guide; eat as many colors as you can.

Limit your soy intake

Eat plants/nuts/seeds with a lot of fat:
Avocados
Coconut
Flax
Chia
Quality Olive Oil
Walnuts

Herbs, herbs, herbs...did i mention herbs? Herbs in everything; grow-em in your window.

[blufire]

Do not agonize over your food Blufire. Eat in peace and privacy. Humanely raised animals most times extend grace which absolves all karma. At the highest level of existence killing is for more painful than dying and compassion extends to those who feel the need to do so.
We have a planet and culture to repair. Police of any kind are unnecessary in an functional society. That includes food police.

modwiz . . . .reading through this thread and others like it I am most definitely not the one agonizing over what I am eating or the condition of my lifestyle. Nor in anyway am I the one policing or judging the food the population as a whole is consuming.


My latest blood testes have very good results, but I´ve been reading about the huge importance of supplementing Omega 3 (from linseed or linseed oil), specially for vegetarians. What do you think?

Also, do you take any B12 supplements?

As a vegan or vegetarian, if it is essential that you use any form of supplementation then your diet is not holistic, natural or in anyway complete.

[modwiz]

Do not agonize over your food Blufire. Eat in peace and privacy. Humanely raised animals most times extend grace which absolves all karma. At the highest level of existence killing is for more painful than dying and compassion extends to those who feel the need to do so.
We have a planet and culture to repair. Police of any kind are unnecessary in an functional society. That includes food police.

modwiz . . . .reading through this thread and others like it I am most definitely not the one agonizing over what I am eating or the condition of my lifestyle. Nor in anyway am I the one policing or judging the food the population as a whole is consuming.


My latest blood testes have very good results, but I´ve been reading about the huge importance of supplementing Omega 3 (from linseed or linseed oil), specially for vegetarians. What do you think?

Also, do you take any B12 supplements?

As a vegan or vegetarian, if it is essential that you use any form of supplementation then your diet is not holistic, natural or in anyway complete.

I retract. It might be best to not address you at all. I will avoid interacting with you. My words were an attempt at understanding and kindness. I won't even try to figure out how you took it. I would appreciate us not replying to each others' posts. I see no fruit from the interactions. Lemons maybe.

I've edited my post and removed the offensive material.

[STATIC]

Hi my friend,

Well, I guess it´s easier than you think. I don´t think any videos or books are essential.

Is your diet already balanced? If it is, just take out the meat. It´s as simple as that.

Anyway, there´s a nice recent documentary called Forks over Knives, which shows several medical cases where serious diseases were easily cured by changing to a vegetarian diet. I think you´ll like it. It´s very well produced.

Cheers,

Raf.


Do any of you suggest any particular resources websites, books, video's for someone starting out on this path.
Much appreciated.

I would say pretty well balanced, but quite a bit of room for improvement.
I grow quite a bit of veg during the growing season and I'm a pretty good cook so I don't do much eating out.
I've watched the vid you mentioned twice... very good.

It's just that I know it will be hard to make the change I want with my current environment.
I hang around a lot of what you could call "hard core carnivores" (michigan and my family are like this)
It's kind of like trying to quit smoking in the middle of a circle of smokers. No biggie though I have the willpower.
I just want to learn more about having a complete diet without meat, so I'l at least get a few books to further my understanding and also be able to fend off the why the hell do you not eat meat conversation :)

[RMorgan]

Hi my friend,

Well, I guess it´s easier than you think. I don´t think any videos or books are essential.

Is your diet already balanced? If it is, just take out the meat. It´s as simple as that.

Anyway, there´s a nice recent documentary called Forks over Knives, which shows several medical cases where serious diseases were easily cured by changing to a vegetarian diet. I think you´ll like it. It´s very well produced.

Cheers,

Raf.


Do any of you suggest any particular resources websites, books, video's for someone starting out on this path.
Much appreciated.

I would say pretty well balanced, but quite a bit of room for improvement.
I grow quite a bit of veg during the growing season and I'm a pretty good cook so I don't do much eating out.
I've watched the vid you mentioned twice... very good.

It's just that I know it will be hard to make the change I want with my current environment.
I hang around a lot of what you could call "hard core carnivores" (michigan and my family are like this)
It's kind of like trying to quit smoking in the middle of a circle of smokers. No biggie though I have the willpower.
I just want to learn more about having a complete diet without meat, so I'l at least get a few books to further my understanding and also be able to fend off the why the hell do you not eat meat conversation :)

Hi mate,

Almost all my friends are not vegetarians. They used to make fun of me when I became a vegetarian, but they get used to it after only a couple of months. :)

As for people asking questions, with time, you´ll have pretty logical answers for all of them.

When people ask me questions about it and I perceive they are asking because they are just curious and honestly wanting to learn more about vegetarianism, I´m very pleased to answer those questions very patiently and minutely.

However, some meat eaters really like to attack vegetarians sometimes. In this case, I just give short answers like "I´m vegetarian because I´ve chosen to be" , "I don´t like meat" , "I´m allergic to animal proteins" and even " I don´t want to talk about it" and quickly change subjects.

There´s nothing more boring than engaging a "vegetarian versus meat eater" debate. Unless you perceive a honest interest to learn from the other person, just give a short answer and change subject.

Your friends are your friends. They are supposed to accept you the way you are.

Anyway, here are some links for some good reasons for becoming a vegetarian:

http://www.britishmeat.com/49.htm

http://www.giveusahome.co.uk/articles/vegetarianism.htm

http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/101.html (this one is very detailed and coherent)

Cheers,

Raf.

[STATIC]

Muahahaha.... there will be deafening silence from the opposition when I brake out the 101 reasons article :thumb:

[RMorgan]

Hahaha! Just print it, plasticize it and take it in your wallet wherever you go! :)

Read it whenever you need and then, to conclude, ask them to now tell you one reason to eat meat besides taste! ;)

Cheers,

Raf.



Muahahaha.... there will be deafening silence from the opposition when I brake out the 101 reasons article :thumb:

[blufire]

Please help me to understand if the diet you choose requires some or any form of supplementation . . . especially supplementation you cannot grow within the area you live . . .how then can your diet be holistic, natural or complete?

[RMorgan]

Please help me to understand if the diet you choose requires some or any form of supplementation . . . especially supplementation you cannot grow within the area you live . . .how then can your diet be holistic, natural or complete?

Hi blufire,

Well, I don´t take any supplements and as far as my blood tests can tell, I´m pretty healthy.

I can´t even remember the last time I got sick.

I´m not sure if it´s related, but I used to get sick very often before becoming a vegetarian.

Anyways....It´s so personal. Different persons may have different results with the same diet. There´s a lot of variables involved.

Cheers,

Raf.

[blufire]

This is good that your diet is working for you. But as a whole or is it more common that people who choose a vegetarian and especially vegan diet require supplementation?

If you or anyone else answers yes to this question then could one come to a logical conclusion that a vegan and/or vegetarian diet may not be holistic for everyone?

[RMorgan]

This is good that your diet is working for you. But as a whole or is it more common that people who choose a vegetarian and especially vegan diet require supplementation?

If you or anyone else answers yes to this question then could one come to a logical conclusion that a vegan and/or vegetarian diet may not be holistic for everyone?

Well, I´ve read many times that about 40% of vegetarians are deficient in B12 vitamin. However, about 30% of meat eaters are B12 deficient as well.

There´s a growing number of persons that just can´t absorb B12. However, I don´t know why. Might be related to junk food and other soft poisons.

So, I don´t think that a vegetarian diet is restricted to a certain group of people or blood type. I think that everyone, vegetarian or not, should be careful with their food choices and suppliers and have a balanced diet.

Probably everyone in the world have some kind of nutrient deficiency.

Also, because of the excessive use of sunscreen, most people are having vitamin D deficiency these days.

In my opinion, the key to have a good health is eating organics and avoiding junk food and drinks.

Personally, I didn´t become a vegetarian for health related issues. It was much more because of social-economic-ecologic reasons.

Cheers,

Raf.

[STATIC]

Please help me to understand if the diet you choose requires some or any form of supplementation . . . especially supplementation you cannot grow within the area you live . . .how then can your diet be holistic, natural or complete?

I found these 2 articles to be enlightening in response to you question.
For me It doesn't really matter because I do not intend to be strictly vegan. I just want to be healthy and fully responsible for the food that I ingest without killing animals and continuing the cycle of destruction.
Even if I were to go completely Vegan and had to take a B12 supplement to have a "complete" diet it wouldn't chap my ass to do so :) (we collectively do so many unnatural things anyway)
I like this part from the first article....


You really don't need the naturalness claim to be a veg*n! That is, moral/spiritual reasons alone are adequate to justify following a veg*n diet (assuming the diet works for you, of course). Further, if the motivation for your diet is moral and/or spiritual, then you will want the basis of your diet to be honest as well as compassionate. In that case, ditching the false myths of naturalness presents no problems; indeed, ditching false myths means that you are ditching a burden


http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/natural
http://www.livestrong.com/article/250236-natural-sources-of-vitamin-b12/

[DeBron]

On animal slaughter: I do not see the difference between it and vegetable slaughter. .

Cerebral cortex and Limbic system...

Please clarify your statement. I honestly don't know. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

[dan i el]

Do any of you suggest any particular resources websites, books, video's for someone starting out on this path.
Much appreciated.

imagine there was no internet and you didn't want to participate in a magic mass ritual slaughter of sentient creatures..then take it from there...sweet potatoes and cold pressed olive oil are quite good nutrition wise if that is your concern...but they won't make you live forever..

[dan i el]

To no-one in particular,

So many incipient defenders of factory farming on this thread.."yeah, but plants are animals too" " yeah, i get it but then you are a cannibal if your momma breast fed you", "yeah but yeah but this that and the other".

It's REALLY SIMPLE - you are not top of the food chain - no wonder we are in this stew energetically when most folk are walking around in the delusion that they are little mini capstones and the "EArth" is their BBQ

Like some participants in this thread have attempted to say again and again (and kudos to them) - the thread is about factory farming realities and factory farming realities only - where is the argument actually? It occurs to me that it is an obvious fact that factory farming is extremely powerful bad magic .. needing to state a case why one's own individual consumption of fellow mammals is holistic and "okay" is irrelevant to the subject at hand. >So hopefully, them that is feeling the need to do that can presently cease and desist now?

¤=[Post Update]=¤




On animal slaughter: I do not see the difference between it and vegetable slaughter. .

Cerebral cortex and Limbic system...

Please clarify your statement. I honestly don't know. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

What wasn't clear for you in my statement?

[WhiteFeather]

Again This thread also has reverence in raising our spiritual growth as well, IMO and others that i have been researching, it seems by consuming The DNA Flesh of animals, hinders our spiritual growth, if you will. Like i said in a previous post, Alex Collier states that The Andromedans from The Pleaides Star System consume only fruit and are considered fruitatarians only. I believe there is a clue as to why they indulge in fruit only. And i think its a spiritual advancement that benefits there highly evolved race. Hope this makes sense to some.

[dan i el]

Again This thread also has reverence in raising our spiritual growth as well, IMO and others that i have been researching, it seems by consuming The DNA Flesh of animals, hinders our spiritual growth, if you will. .

I would agree with that. I think it generally does - when it comes to those who are in real balance...like say Sans Bushmen hunters praying over their kill and thanking the soul for their family's continuance or some so other exotic example...then I don't personally know if it is that bad at all really...but for us lot in mass congregation at the behest of the controlling factor then, yeah, we'd probably get further 'spiritually' if we didn't vampire...I don't care about all that so much I am not trying to win spirit points!...I have just seen that fellow mammals have emotion and are innocent...I am not interested in devouring them...if that makes me 'more spiritual' then great!

I mean, if a bear eats a man - does the bear become less spiritual? The predominant thing in this, afaic, is that humans are not completely indigenous..therefore the choice we make in respect to this issue is important. You can't really complain if you find your spirit on some being's proverbial dinnerplate if you have spent your time guzzling concentration camp flesh all your life.

[RAPBRASIL]

Hi everyone!

I used to eat meat until the age of 18. After becoming a vegetarian it took about 6-7 years to detox the body.
The changes that I experienced were more on personality.... I became more calm and collective almost laid back in better tune with all around me.
A true journey to understanding self started. Perception improved and most of all my sensitivity towards all other life-forms became more profound.
My Spirituality became tangible and the loss of drive towards attaining futile objectives and silly worldly games that we play increased.

Once you reach a level of feeling the soul that once was in that meat, giving it up is easy, since one identifies self in all and All in Self.

Do not use the excuse that "what will I then eat?" .... there is such variety that rarely I eat the same dish in a month..... Lucky me I am in Brazil..... so the fruit and veg that is here is incredible... It has been almost 28 years and I have never had a craving for meat since I left.... Actually happy that I did make that choice.

Hope this helped...

Kind regards,

[TargeT]

Again This thread also has reverence in raising our spiritual growth as well, IMO and others that i have been researching, it seems by consuming The DNA Flesh of animals, hinders our spiritual growth, if you will. Like i said in a previous post, Alex Collier states that The Andromedans from The Pleaides Star System consume only fruit and are considered fruitatarians only. I believe there is a clue as to why they indulge in fruit only. And i think its a spiritual advancement that benefits there highly evolved race. Hope this makes sense to some.

I disagree with this statement and find it is usually made with emotional attachment (as most "vegan" types seem to have).

I do not consider myself qualified enough to tell anyone (even myself) what my experience "here" is suppose to be; rather I strive to accept what is & use nature as a guide.

If I did not have teeth designed for meat I would probably more inclined to agree with the "plant only" people, however I also have personal experience to guide me & for me a vegan diet is terrible, draining & impacts my immune system (YMMV of course..).

I honestly don't see why vegans cannot be more accepting & feel the need to vilify that which they chose not to participate in (though this "elitist" mentality is very human, and I suppose it shouldn't surprise me); this reminds me a lot of religious doctrine that preaches tolerance & is anything but in action.

Though I also do not understand why food is cooked & have dabbled in raw eating off and on for a while; all perceptions have value & while some seem to by their very nature exclude others I do not think it is so.

[blufire]

@ dan i el . . . I have not seen one person on this thread supporting factory animal farming and I can only imagine this aimed mostly at me since I have been the most vocal meat consumer.

I still can not resolve logically how being a vegan or vegetarian is the only way (diet wise) that we will raise our spiritual level or growth . . .because it cannot be TRUTH for all humans on the planet.

How will an Inuit (Eskimo) or desert dweller be able to sustainably eat only fruits and vegetables. Even with our current technology it is not possible.

With this mind set or philosophy you condemn entire races of people or people who live in certain areas of the planet to what you deem low spiritual vibration and lesser spirituality. How is this compassionate or spiritual?

[TargeT]

I do agree that feed lots (where corn is the main food sourse, which in itself nearly kills cattle before they stumble into a slaughter house that is usualy connected) need a re design, luckily there is an option out there that has been persued by some:

and a movie made about this woman as well (worth a watch if you haven't seen it)
http://www.templegrandin.com/

http://www.grandin.com/humane/rec.slaughter.html

I also agree with bluefire's comments; in her first statement she underlines a bit of what I was commenting on (the "judgement" mentality); I also saw no support for current animal harvesting tech.s in this thread & personally support a more "natural" aproach to food gathering (which, by the way eliminates most modern farming, espeicaly grains... in this sense I think vegan's have it completely backward as grains are the only thing I can think of that we should NOT eat)

[dan i el]

with all respect blufire - get over it - the thread is about factory farming...not the dietary habits of Innuits nor Sans bush people for that matter... I didn't "condemn" anyone nor did I presume what their "spiritual vibration" might be...I don't even know what that actually means other than a rediculous buzzword! ..but to keep it on topic, I would definitely agree with the OP that factory farming is insane...I don't really see what part of my posts confused you into thinking I was saying something else *shrugs*

[dan i el]

I do agree that feed lots (where corn is the main food sourse, which in itself nearly kills cattle before they stumble into a slaughter house that is usualy connected) need a re design, luckily there is an option out there that has been persued by some:

and a movie made about this woman as well (worth a watch if you haven't seen it)
http://www.templegrandin.com/

http://www.grandin.com/humane/rec.slaughter.html


Temple Grandin is Autistic. People diagnosed to be on the Autistic spectrum are believed to be inherently more in tune with animal psychology than "neurotypicals"..her "love" of cows has led to much improvement in slaughter house process'. So if it's okay I'll say "well done Temple" whilst performing a facepalm.

*off topic* if you want to delve into the subject of why Autistic people are thought to be more cognizant to/with the emotions of non human mammalian consciousness' here is a good place to begin:
http://www.rdos.net/eng/

[blufire]

The first sentence only was directed at you, dan iel.

Yes this thread is on the atrocities of animal farming and slaughter and (by Whitefeather’s OP) the only way to raise our spiritual level or advance as a human race is to be a vegan or vegetarian.

Perhaps you should reread his (whitefeather’s) posts since this topic is his thread; my statements are encompassing his point of view and the original OP.

And yes this topic and philosophy should include and be Truth all peoples of the entire planet



with all respect blufire - get over it - the thread is about factory farming...not the dietary habits of Innuits nor Sans bush people for that matter... I didn't "condemn" anyone nor did I presume what their "spiritual vibration" might be...I don't even know what that actually means other than a rediculous buzzword! ..but to keep it on topic, I would definitely agree with the OP that factory farming is insane...I don't really see what part of my posts confused you into thinking I was saying something else *shrugs*

[dan i el]

The first sentence only was directed at you, dan iel.

Yes this thread is on the atrocities of animal farming and slaughter and (by Whitefeather’s OP) the only way to raise our spiritual level or advance as a human race is to be a vegan or vegetarian.

Perhaps you should reread his (whitefeather’s) posts since this topic is his thread; my statements are encompassing his point of view and the original OP.

And yes this topic and philosophy should include and be Truth all peoples of the entire planet




I've read the whole thread, it just wasn't clearly demarcated where the "@dan i el" ended in your post..

afaic - surprising as it may be, for you, I think the idea of petitioning people on a socio-cultural or psycho-spiritual basis to adopt a strictly vegan diet is in line with conditioning towards the precepts of agenda 21.

I choose not to eat fellow mammals as I simply think it is sick in the head - that's just my own "spiritual" perspective on it...and I grew up in the countryside where it definitely is the normality, for what it's worth...

Your initial "beef", pardon the pun, was that "some people simplys need meat to survive" - that is simply not true.

Someone goes on about the shape of their teeth too.

but then by extension, when it comes to the issue of industrialised slaughter/factory farming -- I see no need to debate the "spiritual" arguement - afaic, it is simply obvious that this is a sickening activity.

Even if I rear some cows on an idyllic pasture giving them a bountiful life from when they were calfs, even if I happened to kindly give them milk from a bottle while they were vulnerable and young, the point where I sell them for cash to the slaughterhouse provides the reality of the situation. Some might even go as far as to decry it as "blood money".. I myself am not so militant and rather presume it as ignorance and social conditioning.

If someone wants vainly to defend industrial slaughter of creatures we could otherwise respect -- that is their look out . I hear the Hindus' respect specifically the cow as they do as the cow could and did travel with the people to higher ground after the deluge and the plentiful supply of milk the cow provided invariably helped sustain the people. It's a basic "thank you" tradition. Naja

aPhWfSeMYHA

B_ExP4JpLvM

[Tane Mahuta]

@ dan i el . . . I have not seen one person on this thread supporting factory animal farming and I can only imagine this aimed mostly at me since I have been the most vocal meat consumer.

I still can not resolve logically how being a vegan or vegetarian is the only way (diet wise) that we will raise our spiritual level or growth . . .because it cannot be TRUTH for all humans on the planet.

How will an Inuit (Eskimo) or desert dweller be able to sustainably eat only fruits and vegetables. Even with our current technology it is not possible.

With this mind set or philosophy you condemn entire races of people or people who live in certain areas of the planet to what you deem low spiritual vibration and lesser spirituality. How is this compassionate or spiritual?

15299


I too am a meatlover...

I enjoy a bit of red meat ocasionally...

I really enjoy white meats, ie: poulty/Seafood.

What I don't enjoy is how animals are inhumanely Slaughted.

How animals are mistreated


nuff said

TM

[161803398]

On animal slaughter: I do not see the difference between it and vegetable slaughter.

"This is the first day that these pigs have EVER seen sunlight. And its through the windows of the truck that drives them to slaughter."
~ Julie O'Neill

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/559960_265785903509457_115978338490215_592577_1982012421_n.jpg

I dont understand what you just said.

I understand joy and I understand despair.

[D-Day]

On animal slaughter: I do not see the difference between it and vegetable slaughter.

"This is the first day that these pigs have EVER seen sunlight. And its through the windows of the truck that drives them to slaughter."
~ Julie O'Neill

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/559960_265785903509457_115978338490215_592577_1982012421_n.jpg

I dont understand what you just said.

I understand joy and I understand despair.

The phrase "we are all connected" does not apply only to human beings.
ALL things in this reality are connected... plants, animals, minerals, gases, liquids, solids etc etc.
Whether an animal is slaughtered to provide sustinance for another being, or a plant is slaughtered for the same purpose... there is ultimately NO difference between the two acts.
When broken down to base level, these two acts involve nothing more than a changing of form and an exchange of energy.
As cruel as this viewpoint might seem to some, it is the process by which all aspects of this 3D reality operate.
These processes are a natural part of our existence here, an existence that we each chose to experience before deciding to cone here.
I use the word "natural" because it IS the natural way of things in this reality, no two ways about it.
Unless, of course, we move into a different/new reality, which I acknowledge to be a possibility.
But before we can do that, I suspect it will be a requirement for us to experience and come to terms with ALL aspects of this reality first.
At the end of the day, we are here to experience, appreciate, learn and understand what this reality has to offer... the good, the bad, and the ugly.
With these points in mind, I'd say anyone who thinks they are more spiritually evolved than another because they consume plants and not animals is deluding themselves from the truth of the reality they have chosen to immerse themselves into.
The way I see it, those who want to raise their vibration in order to leave this reality behind won't be able to do so until they laern to exist in and accept this reality for what IT IS first.

[dan i el]

On animal slaughter: I do not see the difference between it and vegetable slaughter.

"This is the first day that these pigs have EVER seen sunlight. And its through the windows of the truck that drives them to slaughter."
~ Julie O'Neill

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/559960_265785903509457_115978338490215_592577_1982012421_n.jpg

I dont understand what you just said.

I understand joy and I understand despair.

The phrase "we are all connected" does not apply only to human beings.
ALL things in this reality are connected... plants, animals, minerals, gases, liquids, solids etc etc.
Whether an animal is slaughtered to provide sustinance for another being, or a plant is slaughtered for the same purpose... there is ultimately NO difference between the two acts.


By this reckoning then, if one eat some broccolli it is the same as if one eats another human being?

[DeBron]

To no-one in particular,

So many incipient defenders of factory farming on this thread.."yeah, but plants are animals too" " yeah, i get it but then you are a cannibal if your momma breast fed you", "yeah but yeah but this that and the other".

It's REALLY SIMPLE - you are not top of the food chain - no wonder we are in this stew energetically when most folk are walking around in the delusion that they are little mini capstones and the "EArth" is their BBQ

Like some participants in this thread have attempted to say again and again (and kudos to them) - the thread is about factory farming realities and factory farming realities only - where is the argument actually? It occurs to me that it is an obvious fact that factory farming is extremely powerful bad magic .. needing to state a case why one's own individual consumption of fellow mammals is holistic and "okay" is irrelevant to the subject at hand. >So hopefully, them that is feeling the need to do that can presently cease and desist now?

¤=[Post Update]=¤




On animal slaughter: I do not see the difference between it and vegetable slaughter. .

Cerebral cortex and Limbic system...

Please clarify your statement. I honestly don't know. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

What wasn't clear for you in my statement?

Well your retort is very helpful and indeed the need to speak of personal tastes was not neccessary. The reason I wanted clarification in your statement was because you named a system in animals and a system in plants in response to one statement in my post. This was obviously an attempt to besmirk my input as trivial and unsubstantive.

I guess I am just a little frustrated because you responded to one line in my post, when I was adding to the discussion that the way we mass produce plant food is similar and often times more dangerous. They are both atrocious if you look at how you are harming the entity that is intended to be eaten.

Could it be done better? Of course. More efficiently? You bet. In a more cost effective manner? Not soon enough. There is the root of the matter. Profit and sustainability.

Farmers want to exist comfortably(as do we all). The most effective way to do that is by having more and more product on a smaller space, that produce a perishable good quicker and quicker. They are barely surviving and one alternative to this is to mass produce the things which have been successfully marketed to the public. These things are meat, dairy, wheat, and corn. All of these products are produced in manners that most would find appauling but dont care as long as they can get it cheaply. The only way to get it cheaply is by increasing efficiency in expedience of production. This includes using additives, genetically modifying our food to make it bear fruit faster, and using pesticides to kill off anything else that may encroach on the nutrients designated for the food.

This has received much pushback from people over the years and rightly so. Not enough research has been placed to find the long term effects of the things we have done with our food. I just find it a little condescending when people demonize the food industry. Where we are today in regards to this topic was not a simple process, and a simple solution will not fix it.

In our quest to feed the populace we have altered both flora and fauna to satiate the hungry beast. So until we learn as species to sustain our existence through sunlight only(which no known creature does, save a few monks ) we will have questionable feeding habits.


Oh I forgot to add......IMHO LOL

[DeBron]

[QUOTE=D-DAY;462293][QUOTE=161803398;462205][QUOTE]By this reckoning then, if one eat some broccolli it is the same as if one eats another human being?


If you eat a human you go to jail... and in a sense while in prison you will be eaten alive LOL

[13th Warrior]

By this reckoning then, if one eat some broccolli it is the same as if one eats another human being?

Your statement brings up the pivotal point of this discussion.

It's a question of ethics.

The natural world doesn't operate under such constructs.

Ethic is a humanistic idealism and there is always going to be friction when one group tries to impose their ethical guidelines upon another. Ethics ties into my greater point about ethnocentrism.

[STATIC]

On animal slaughter: I do not see the difference between it and vegetable slaughter.

"This is the first day that these pigs have EVER seen sunlight. And its through the windows of the truck that drives them to slaughter."
~ Julie O'Neill

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/559960_265785903509457_115978338490215_592577_1982012421_n.jpg

I dont understand what you just said.

I understand joy and I understand despair.

The phrase "we are all connected" does not apply only to human beings.
ALL things in this reality are connected... plants, animals, minerals, gases, liquids, solids etc etc.
Whether an animal is slaughtered to provide sustinance for another being, or a plant is slaughtered for the same purpose... there is ultimately NO difference between the two acts.
When broken down to base level, these two acts involve nothing more than a changing of form and an exchange of energy.
As cruel as this viewpoint might seem to some, it is the process by which all aspects of this 3D reality operate.
These processes are a natural part of our existence here, an existence that we each chose to experience before deciding to cone here.
I use the word "natural" because it IS the natural way of things in this reality, no two ways about it.
Unless, of course, we move into a different/new reality, which I acknowledge to be a possibility.
But before we can do that, I suspect it will be a requirement for us to experience and come to terms with ALL aspects of this reality first.
At the end of the day, we are here to experience, appreciate, learn and understand what this reality has to offer... the good, the bad, and the ugly.
With these points in mind, I'd say anyone who thinks they are more spiritually evolved than another because they consume plants and not animals is deluding themselves from the truth of the reality they have chosen to immerse themselves into.
The way I see it, those who want to raise their vibration in order to leave this reality behind won't be able to do so until they laern to exist in and accept this reality for what IT IS first.

I think you are partially correct in you assessment IMHO. I have always thought that things are really difficult on this planet to learn really hard lessons in the fast lane. The subject we are talking about is one of those lessons.

The part that does not quite fit for me is that Mass slaughter of lifeforms is not something that is a preexisting condition on our planet. We brought that one to the table.

Sure many life forms are part of a cycle that kill other things for survival. This is a natural part of our reality which is dualistic in nature. Transference of energy is an ongoing and unstoppable process.

I just don't understand how the idea of mass murder of multiple species could be considered moral or natural just because it exists. It's not moral... this is the whole point. We as a species have used and abused this reality on every level.

So why do we do these things? We have great power in the making of our realities. Much more so than any other species on this planet. This is why we should be thanking the universe for this great gift by becoming responsible cosmic citizens.

For some strange reason beyond me this topic always creates a divide. It shouldn't because we are not talking about eating meat versus not eating meat. We are talking about mass murder with great pain involved for those animals being "harvested" verses a more respectful way of doing life.

This more respectful way is an ancient wisdom. You never take more than you need. Weather meat causes us problems on a vibrational level I can't say for sure. Whitefeather thinks so. I may agree but that doesn't really change anything.

End point... mass murder is immoral and we need to stop pretending it's not.

:)

[13th Warrior]

On animal slaughter: I do not see the difference between it and vegetable slaughter.

"This is the first day that these pigs have EVER seen sunlight. And its through the windows of the truck that drives them to slaughter."
~ Julie O'Neill

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/559960_265785903509457_115978338490215_592577_1982012421_n.jpg

I dont understand what you just said.

I understand joy and I understand despair.

The phrase "we are all connected" does not apply only to human beings.
ALL things in this reality are connected... plants, animals, minerals, gases, liquids, solids etc etc.
Whether an animal is slaughtered to provide sustinance for another being, or a plant is slaughtered for the same purpose... there is ultimately NO difference between the two acts.
When broken down to base level, these two acts involve nothing more than a changing of form and an exchange of energy.
As cruel as this viewpoint might seem to some, it is the process by which all aspects of this 3D reality operate.
These processes are a natural part of our existence here, an existence that we each chose to experience before deciding to cone here.
I use the word "natural" because it IS the natural way of things in this reality, no two ways about it.
Unless, of course, we move into a different/new reality, which I acknowledge to be a possibility.
But before we can do that, I suspect it will be a requirement for us to experience and come to terms with ALL aspects of this reality first.
At the end of the day, we are here to experience, appreciate, learn and understand what this reality has to offer... the good, the bad, and the ugly.
With these points in mind, I'd say anyone who thinks they are more spiritually evolved than another because they consume plants and not animals is deluding themselves from the truth of the reality they have chosen to immerse themselves into.
The way I see it, those who want to raise their vibration in order to leave this reality behind won't be able to do so until they laern to exist in and accept this reality for what IT IS first.

I think you are partially correct in you assessment IMHO. I have always thought that things are really difficult on this planet to learn really hard lessons in the fast lane. The subject we are talking about is one of those lessons.

The part that does not quite fit for me is that Mass slaughter of lifeforms is not something that is a preexisting condition on our planet. We brought that one to the table.

Sure many life forms are part of a cycle that kill other things for survival. This is a natural part of our reality which is dualistic in nature. Transference of energy is an ongoing and unstoppable process.

I just don't understand how the idea of mass murder of multiple species could be considered moral or natural just because it exists. It's not moral... this is the whole point. We as a species have used and abused this reality on every level.

So why do we do these things? We have great power in the making of our realities. Much more so than any other species on this planet. This is why we should be thanking the universe for this great gift by becoming responsible cosmic citizens.

For some strange reason beyond me this topic always creates a divide. It shouldn't because we are not talking about eating meat versus not eating meat. We are talking about mass murder with great pain involved for those animals being "harvested" verses a more respectful way of doing life.

This more respectful way is an ancient wisdom. You never take more than you need. Weather meat causes us problems on a vibrational level I can't say for sure. Whitefeather thinks so. I may agree but that doesn't really change anything.

End point... mass murder is immoral and we need to stop pretending it's not.

:)

I understand your point but, to use a emotionally charged words like "mass murder" may not be the best way to express what is happening?

To murder is to kill out of hatred.

Would you call a wolf a murder when it kills a deer to eat it?

Would you call a wolf a murder if it killed a deer and didn't eat it?

How many life forms are killed and eaten on a daily basis by non-human entities; is this mass murder?

If a weasel gets into a chicken coup and kills 50 chickens and doesn't eat any of them; is this murder?

If a bear kills a sow's cubs so that the sow will come back into heat; is this murder?

If a lion takes down a zebra and starts to consume it's entrails whilst the animal is still alive; is this ethical?

[jorr lundstrom]

I worked in a slaughter house between 1973-1975. My job was to
kill and let blood from pigs. After 2 years I couldnt take it any longer.
The problem wasnt to kill pigs, it was the industrial fashion. The
stress, screams, stench, vibrations was unbearable.
Since then Ive slaughtered pigs, sheep, lambs, chicken, turkeys and
geeese at home. No problem. I eat meat, Ive eaten all kinds of
meat, exept human flesh. I havent needed to yet, Ive always had
something else to eat.
I dont mind if anyone want to start a religion on vegetarianism with
vegetarians as the righteous people and the rest as sinners or wot
so ever. I dont wanna join one of these congregations, but after wot
I read and my metings with militant vegans I can see that it wount
be easy to be left alone. I wonder if those selfrighteous people get
a high vibrational level from eating plants or from attacking meateaters.

All is one the stone, the plant, the animal and human. No problem. LOL



http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/lammtv.jpg

All is well

Jorr 2.0

[STATIC]

13th warrior. I apologize for using the word incorrectly.

kind of irrelevant though... :rain:

I was obviously speaking of The ethics of man not those of a wolf, bear, weasel or lion. I don't presume to know them.
The only ethics I'm sure of are my own... I was clearly questioning those of my species.

[wynderer]

i started a thread on veganism at Nexus -- very discouraging to me to learn how, even in 'alternative' communities, there is so little compassion for other beings -- most folks were defending their right to eat dead animals -- i told them that i'd spoken to their hearts . & they answered w/their bellies [probably fat bellies if they are from the USA]

this IS a lawful universe -- & what goes around does come around eventually -- Humans may be at the top of the food chain on this tiny little planet, but you are far from being at the top in your galaxy, let alone your universe

[161803398]

Sometimes people have difficulty just calling something what it is. If anyone thinks that cruelty and despair are good for our planet I don't understand how they can even contemplate a better world than the one we have.

Even if you don't care about mass slaughter and the relentless murder of billions of earth entities; then perhaps you could consider the grain that is fed to them to feed us....or the water pollution that is caused by factory farming.

If you need to eat meat so badly that you are comfortable will all of this...then I can understand why, in your mind, it is more comfortable to believe I am some kind of "fanatic". I'm not a fanatic; I'm a person who was made much sadder by knowledge and find no alternative but to try to fix it.

[STATIC]

I worked in a slaughter house between 1973-1975. My job was to
kill and let blood from pigs. After 2 years I couldnt take it any longer.
The problem wasnt to kill pigs, it was the industrial fashion. The
stress, screams, stench, vibrations was unbearable.
Since then Ive slaughtered pigs, sheep, lambs, chicken, turkeys and
geeese at home. No problem. I eat meat, Ive eaten all kinds of
meat, exept human flesh. I havent needed to yet, Ive always had
something else to eat.
I dont mind if anyone want to start a religion on vegetarianism with
vegetarians as the righteous people and the rest as sinners or wot
so ever. I dont wanna join one of these congregations, but after wot
I read and my metings with militant vegans I can see that it wount
be easy to be left alone. I wonder if those selfrighteous people get
a high vibrational level from eating plants or from attacking meateaters.

All is one the stone, the plant, the animal and human. No problem. LOL



http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/lammtv.jpg

All is well

Jorr 2.0

I am very much against the Idea of the religion that you mention.
I am against militant anything for that matter. If you impose your truth on another person you are participating in a type of militant behavior.
I hope I was not preceived as such. To be clear I am not against eating meat. My opinion on factory farming was reiterated by this part of your post.


After 2 years I couldnt take it any longer.
The problem wasnt to kill pigs, it was the industrial fashion. The
stress, screams, stench, vibrations was unbearable.

This is the topic at hand. The conditions under which factory style slaughterhouses operate are not conducive to the well being of any Sentient being involved with it.
The only reason it is this way is because of greed. So while it may be within the ethical code of good business to be greedy, as far as I understand it greed has never been associated what you would call a sound moral conduct.
So the obvious conclusion taking into account all that has been said in the thread. The Factory slaughter enterprise as such needs to revamp it's business practices to align itself with a more compassionate code of conduct.
They probably won't do this on there own (too greedy), so those who don't want to see this anymore either buy meat from a more organic style of farming or just quit eating it.
I see either option as good IMHO.

[Ivanhoe]

Well at the risk of incurring someone's wrath,.... I'm an omnivore and I love it.
Sometimes my body craves vegetables and grain, sometimes meat.
I love it all.
I don't agree with industrial meat production, but I don't have a problem with a hunter/fisherman/gatherer consuming his catch or harvest.
I am of the opinion that ALL living things have a sense of "being", be they plant or animal.
Is it less of a sin to kill one than the other? I don't think so.
You can rationalize it all you want, but as humans we have to harvest something in order to survive.
But this is only my opinion, feel free to reject/accept it as you see fit.
So, until I can master living off the air I breath I will continue to be an omnivore.

[TargeT]

i started a thread on veganism at Nexus -- very discouraging to me to learn how, even in 'alternative' communities, there is so little compassion for other beings -- most folks were defending their right to eat dead animals -- i told them that i'd spoken to their hearts . & they answered w/their bellies [probably fat bellies if they are from the USA]

this IS a lawful universe -- & what goes around does come around eventually -- Humans may be at the top of the food chain on this tiny little planet, but you are far from being at the top in your galaxy, let alone your universe

what does your definition of a "being" include (or more importantly, EXCLUDE)?

your response has a tone that I have long ago identified with typically emotion based response (you chose to use an insult in it for example "fat bellies", this is indicative of bad logic)

Does the bacteria in our digestive track count on your list or is that beneath your definition?

could it not be that we are all (even the bacteria) working together in a synergistic harmony? what is ying without yang? who are "you"(me, anyone...) to decide what change is good and what change is bad?

If you choose to only "kill" plants to sustain yourself I have no problem with that, the logical inconsistencies & emotion based responses I do have a problem with.



Sometimes people have difficulty just calling something what it is. If anyone thinks that cruelty and despair are good for our planet I don't understand how they can even contemplate a better world than the one we have.

Even if you don't care about mass slaughter and the relentless murder of billions of earth entities; then perhaps you could consider the grain that is fed to them to feed us....or the water pollution that is caused by factory farming.

If you need to eat meat so badly that you are comfortable will all of this...then I can understand why, in your mind, it is more comfortable to believe I am some kind of "fanatic". I'm not a fanatic; I'm a person who was made much sadder by knowledge and find no alternative but to try to fix it.

you’re not a fanatic, you just choose to limit your perspective based on limitations to life that you find acceptable & that makes you feel more comfortable with your role as a destroyer / creator.



After 2 years I couldnt take it any longer.
The problem wasnt to kill pigs, it was the industrial fashion. The
stress, screams, stench, vibrations was unbearable.

This is the topic at hand. The conditions under which factory style slaughterhouses operate are not conducive to the well being of any Sentient being involved with it.
The only reason it is this way is because of greed. So while it may be within the ethical code of good business to be greedy, as far as I understand it greed has never been associated what you would call a sound moral conduct.
So the obvious conclusion taking into account all that has been said in the thread. The Factory slaughter enterprise as such needs to revamp it's business practices to align itself with a more compassionate code of conduct.
They probably won't do this on there own (too greedy), so those who don't want to see this anymore either buy meat from a more organic style of farming or just quit eating it.
I see either option as good IMHO.

yes, this is the topic & your suggestions are probably close to what most people do, in fact I think that we can all agree on this basic premis; but a disturbing attitude has arisin and should be discussed (as several posts seem to be touching on)

[STATIC]

but a disturbing attitude has arisin and should be discussed

I assume you are referring to the inevitable emotional aspect of this conversation?

feathers will always be ruffled with this topic matter. I think we have all seen it before.

[161803398]

sorry Target, Im just a person who can see when the world is out of balance and take what action I believe appropriate as my part to fix it. That's all I can do.

[13th Warrior]

sorry Target, Im just a person who can see when the world is out of balance.

We are in agreement.

The difference is that you see the imbalance originates from humans eating animals.

I see the imbalance stemming from humans having become out of touch with the natural world in which we live.

My next comments are directed to vegans/vegetarians in general:

A large portion of our problems are concentrated around sustainability.

Which is the more sustainable practice:

Woolen sweaters or synthetic clothing?

Leather shoes and belts or plastic shoes and belts?

Nylon tent material or cotton canvas?

How many products do you use that come from plant/animal based materials vs synthetic petroleum based materials?

Are all your health and beauty products made from plant based oils?

Do you know the difference?

Which is more eco friendly/ethical?

[STATIC]

who are "you"(me, anyone...) to decide what change is good and what change is bad?

If you choose to only "kill" plants to sustain yourself I have no problem with that, the logical inconsistencies & emotion based responses I do have a problem with

I see no inconsistency in logic. Can you explain?
Why do you have a problem with an emotional response when the topic matter is clearly emotional for some people.
Also I don't understand how we can even be human if we don't have any opinion about what is right or wrong. That's what is upside down and backwards about our planet right now. Things that are totally crazy are being viewed as perfectly normal(War, starvation, environmental destruction and so on). As humans our view of what is right or wrong comes from our emotions. If we had no emotions we would have no concept of what right or wrong is.

[161803398]

I never mentioned where the imbalance originates. Why are you claiming that I did?

[TargeT]

sorry Target, Im just a person who can see when the world is out of balance.

We are in agreement.

The difference is that you see the imbalance originates from humans eating animals.

I see the imbalance stemming from humans having become out of touch with the natural world in which we live.
My next comments are directed to vegans/vegetarians in general:

A large portion of our problems are concentrated around sustainability.

Which is the more sustainable practice:

Woolen sweaters or synthetic clothing?

Leather shoes and belts or plastic shoes and belts?

Nylon tent material or cotton canvas?

How many products do you use that come from plant/animal based materials vs synthetic petroleum based materials?

Are all your health and beauty products made from plant based oils?

Do you know the difference?

Which is more eco friendly/ethical?

even your comments I feel are slightly misconstruing the real issue, HOWEVER I feel they are good examples to get people thinking more "openly" on topics that they feel they already "know" about. (Knowledge of anything is the surest way to stifle learning and growth)

a semantics debate will not further this issue I think; however I do agree with the bolded statement very strongly & its implications are much more pervasive than just this topic.







who are "you"(me, anyone...) to decide what change is good and what change is bad?

If you choose to only "kill" plants to sustain yourself I have no problem with that, the logical inconsistencies & emotion based responses I do have a problem with

I see no inconsistency in logic. Can you explain?
Why do you have a problem with an emotional response when the topic matter is clearly emotional for some people.
Also I don't understand how we can even be human if we don't have any opinion about what is right or wrong. That's what is upside down and backwards about our planet right now. Things that are totally crazy are being viewed as perfectly normal(War, starvation, environmental destruction and so on). As humans our view of what is right or wrong comes from our emotions. If we had no emotions we would have no concept of what right or wrong is.

the definition of "life" in this case, its ok to terminate a plants life, but not an animal (or not an animal in certain ways...) its ok for millions of your own skin cells ( alive, again...) to die and fall off every day, but not to kill a larger collection of cells, bacteria colonies are the same, someone who uses mouth wash & then complains of animal death is inconsistent (IMO, I could be wrong and often am ;) )

I have a problem with emotion when ever it comes time to understand something, emotion has little to do with logic, learning or understanding/communication; this is a much larger topic & I wouldn't want to muddy this thread further than I already am, so I'll leave it at that.

opinions are good, attempting to judge someone else based on your opinion is often not good & I see this here.

I also do not think that emotion is the core of "right and wrong", however I think these are very subjective terms & usually turn to "intent & desired outcome" before I even come CLOSE to using those labels.

[13th Warrior]

I never mentioned where the imbalance originates. Why are you claiming that I did?

Could you then elaborate on where this imbalance comes?

[STATIC]

the definition of "life" in this case, its ok to terminate a plants life, but not an animal (or not an animal in certain ways...) its ok for millions of your own skin cells ( alive, again...) to die and fall off every day, but not to kill a larger collection of cells, bacteria colonies are the same, someone who uses mouth wash & then complains of animal death is inconsistent

lol, I never use mouthwash
I'l just say this. I feel bad when i see animals die. In response I want to own that feeling, and be true to them. Therefore I am now choosing to not support there death in any way. The argument your making doesn't make any sense to me, which is ok because we see things differently. Bacteria doesn't scream in agony when I wash my sink with scolding hot water so i don't feel bad about it. Now you understand that I personally decode my reality heavily through feelings. I don't discount what you are saying though. I understand your logic now, and I disagree very respectfully and without judgment. :angel: :yield:

tyler

[161803398]

I don't know where the imbalance originates and, in any event, the topic of this thread is "animal slaughter". It hasn't escaped my notice that the world at the moment is awash with negative and irrational thinking and the reason for that is utterly obscure to me.

[161803398]

Video about pollution from tanneries on the Ganges river:

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/specials/in-the-field-specials/cousteau-ganges-kampur-threats/

[TargeT]

Video about pollution from tanneries on the Ganges river:

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/specials/in-the-field-specials/cousteau-ganges-kampur-threats/



in any event, the topic of this thread is "animal slaughter".

;) the miss-use of lye is more of a topic for perhaps, capitalism criticism.. it really has little to do with this thread

[161803398]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?53K1NspYwsA

[13th Warrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?53K1NspYwsA

Unity would be great; as long as it isn't obtained through faith in a "religion"

8kx_vsbpfRU

[161803398]

the miss-use of lye is more of a topic for perhaps, capitalism criticism.. it really has little to do with this thread

I don't think it mentioned lye. Other chemicals mentioned. I guess you didn't notice someone had mentioned leather belts etc. Could be relevant to animal slaughter, hmmmm?

[13th Warrior]

the miss-use of lye is more of a topic for perhaps, capitalism criticism.. it really has little to do with this thread

I don't think it mentioned lye. Other chemicals mentioned. I guess you didn't notice someone had mentioned leather belts etc. Could be relevant to animal slaughter, hmmmm?

Do you wear leather belts or shoes? How about a purse or hand bag with make up or lip gloss?

[161803398]

Unity would be great; as long as it isn't obtained through faith in a "religion"

Gosh, I hope it isn't obtained through any one of a thousand really negative things I could come up with if I sat here the entire day trying to twist my mind into a pretzel. But maybe you could do it. Go for it!

[161803398]

Do you wear leather belts or shoes? How about a purse or hand bag with make up or lip gloss?

I am beyond words on this one.

[jorr lundstrom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?53K1NspYwsA

Thank you for this video. Ive seen earthlings too.


All is well


Jorr 2.0

[13th Warrior]

I ask these seemingly disjointed questions to see how much anybody has thought about these items they may use in their daily lives and where they actually come from.

I was hoping that someone could answer in a fashion that would demonstrate knowledge and understanding emanating from a higher vibration...

[STATIC]

http://www.documentarywire.com/earthlings

watching it right now...


I ask these seemingly disjointed questions to see how much anybody has thought about these items they may use in their daily lives and where they actually come from.

I was hoping that someone could answer in a fashion that would demonstrate knowledge and understanding emanating from a higher vibration...

It's usually a good bet to not buy anything that comes in a box or a plastic wrapper, or that industrial plastic which i can never get open :p

[percival tyro]

Best wishes Nerge

[Peace of Mind]

Flesh eating appears to be the result of adaptation toward scarcity after several cataclysmic events. All of our history tells this. So, logically thinking…the saviors turn savage and scavengers due to the mass extinctions of life (plants and animals). And for the same reason everything was used nothing wasted.... Skin to clothes, bones to utensils...etc. To this day people is still digging through the mounds of settled dust/dirt/the past… uncovering his-story. There are areas of the world (land/sea)that are now barren but unearthed evidence says these ruins used to be rich in foliage and life… bountiful. In many of the sophisticated hieroglyphs…you’ll see a union with animals even if they appear to emulate them…baskets of what appears to be fruits and grains can be seen as offerings or just lying about…

Destruction/ war is seen slaying a beast/animal a civilization in chaos…consumption of any animal is seen as satanic, a blood ritual….not for physical sustainability…(unless you’re a vamp or cave dweller(sci-fy jk/))

I was shown a documentary on a certain monkey breed; it was produced by National Geographic or Discovery Animal Planet…one of them. The show featured certain monkeys turning into flesh eaters and cannibals because of the Human impact on their environment. Interesting, because this brings further light to what we animals/humans/mammals/blah blah blah....do to stay alive…as time past vegetation most likely became scarce, determination and evolution took place, we adapted.

Now, from a spiritual stand point this adaptation is an unnecessary barrier for positive spiritual growth, it’s a contradiction, using the mouth to exhale love and peace while inhaling a chicken wing burger will be conflicting… as you are what you consume…

Everything is energy, it can’t be created nor destroyed…only molded. Deciding to build your body out of death/pain/suffering/sorrow/resent, etc...Eventually, you’ll recognize more of this in your life. Perhaps this all relates to the fallen angels theory/scripture, hmmm...as you can see we have the power to impact the planet in so many ways … regrettably; the results can be blinding, but sensibly irrefutable.

I don’t know anyone or heard of anyone dieing because they stopped eating meat. Still, I sympathize for some, and encourage everyone to experience the differences. It wasn’t easy for me to stop eating flesh; I just simply challenged myself and did it carefully. Our free will is part of our learning process. Trust your body not the FDA, get in tuned with the intricacies of your body, learn it, learn how it works, recognize its predetermined limits and subtly make advancements, give thanks to every cell…show your appreciation and the body will take care of your soul/mission without the need of a physician

When we’re ready to take on a task…we will know. I don’t know anyone that hasn’t eaten meat before…. It’s my reason for learning to be more tolerable on the issue…. though, it should be obvious the adamant responses can only be from having experience on both sides of the fence.

Imho, this discussion is redundant but healthy, if nothing benificial comes from this thread it probably will have proven to be a diversion. This subject will never be properly understood until ventured thoroughly. Those of us that were ready and able to make that change are just motivated; we want life comfortable for all...

we can see paradise on the horizon, it can be seen with gleam… true it’s a journey, so respite may be required to remedy the wear and tear it takes to get there…we move at our own pace. As long as we continue walking in each others shoes…we’ll all get there together.

Peace

[STATIC]

Imho, this discussion is redundant but healthy, if nothing benificial comes from this thread it probably will have proven to be a diversion

Well, this thread started with me being an omnivore. Over three days I have been thinking about it non stop.
It has changed me. In an area that I did not want to see. Thank you all for that
This morning a plate of breakfast was handed to me. Egg toast and bacon. I left the bacon alone.
Very good post pece :thumb:
No diversion here

[wynderer]

[QUOTE=wynderer;462445]i started a thread on veganism at Nexus -- very discouraging to me to learn how, even in 'alternative' communities, there is so little compassion for other beings -- most folks were defending their right to eat dead animals -- i told them that i'd spoken to their hearts . & they answered w/their bellies [probably fat bellies if they are from the USA]

this IS a lawful universe -- & what goes around does come around eventually -- Humans may be at the top of the food chain on this tiny little planet, but you are far from being at the top in your galaxy, let alone your universe

[quote from Target, i think]
what does your definition of a "being" include (or more importantly, EXCLUDE)?

your response has a tone that I have long ago identified with typically emotion based response (you chose to use an insult in it for example "fat bellies", this is indicative of bad logic)

Does the bacteria in our digestive track count on your list or is that beneath your definition?

could it not be that we are all (even the bacteria) working together in a synergistic harmony? what is ying without yang? who are "you"(me, anyone...) to decide what change is good and what change is bad?

If you choose to only "kill" plants to sustain yourself I have no problem with that, the logical inconsistencies & emotion based responses I do have a problem with.


here's a general answer to your questions: i am 'gifted' according to Native American Shamans i have crossed paths w/in my life -- it's not much fun being an empath/sensitive/sometime clairvoyant on this planet -- one of my worst experiences was being above planet Earth & hearing the scream of pain & suffering coming from the millions of Animals -- from Humans, too [you are also Animals] , but way more from your other Animal brothers & sisters -- your 'food animals' -- constantly arising from this planet -- it's been going on for millennia, this scream [a real beacon to darkside ETs, i might add]

i try to take as little part in this cruelty as i am able to while stuck here in a 3D body on this dark & demented loony bin of a planet -- all this defense of eating dead Animals -- you are a rather cruel & violent species

[blufire]

I hate with a passion animal factory farming and slaughter and I equally hate with a passion the slaughter of our forests and natural resources.

The pictures are of coal strip mining and logging. Entire mountains and 100+year old trees are removed to mine the coal out of the Appalachian mountains. . . 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. Coal is then transported on trucks and trains to power plants and manufacturing factories.

Think carefully your day to day life and the immense amount of electricity you use or use vicariously. Without coal you would have no electricity. Without coal powering massive electrical plants there would be no electricity to power manufacturing plants on a global scale. That means no STUFF. Look up at the power lines that run through you towns and neighbor hoods . . . .they are brought to you by coal mining and the men who work these mines for you.

So if it is logical that we should all become vegan or vegetarian because of the barbaric slaughter of animals then we should all . . . .at a minimum. . . refuse to use electricity or anything produced by electricity.

The miners who work in these miners work in highly dangerous conditions. They spend 10 to 12 hours a day underground in shafts that are generally no higher than 48 inches, which means they walk stooped over of more often crawl. On average 85% of the men who work these mines end up with horrible disabilities from injuries or “Black Lung”.

The picture of the x-ray of miner’s lungs is that of a 46 year old man. He will die a very slow agonizing death within 5 to 10 years.

The picture of the logs is an example of the trees that are 100 to 150 years old . . . .I see a minium of 20 trucks a day hauling logs from the mountains that are destroyed. These trees are used to build your homes and furniture and reams of paper we use,


Before you choose to debate me on coal mining and logging or even gas
drilling do your homework and research because I grew up with this and live it now on a daily basis

[STATIC]

I'm with you bluefire.
There is really no reason for any sort of debate on this subject.
The only thing we can really talk about in this case are possible solutions to steer the direction of our energy consumption and production in a completely different direction. I'd start a new thread... :thumb: :)

[161803398]

Karma: (hehe) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2128650/Welcome-new-lizard-overlords-New-study-suggests-alien-worlds-super-intelligent-dinosaurs.html