Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

[Meggings]

Hi Guish, I apologize to you in a way, because I cannot wrap my head around some of the concepts you write. When I was confined to my computer for a good part of today, I indulged myself in saying that I don't see it as you wrote above. But I really want to add that I seem to simply have a mental block for some concepts. I've lived in "no thought" and mostly "with thought", and my experience is that my soul speaks to me and through me all the time, with or without thought operating.

Perhaps glitches for me come from such statements as, "All spiritual experiences comes when one is beyond mind and body." I experience spirituality in pouring the morning glass of water. I "fall upwards" and touch divinity, even as my mind says blessings for the world as I pour out drinking water. I cannot seem to separate mind from body from spiritual from mundane with clearly defined lines - it is all the one flowing.

So here I bow my head in friendship to you, bowing to your erudition while trusting to my experiential proclivities.

[greybeard]

Tim would possibly give a clearer answer.
My understanding is that Truth is form--formless---both and neither.
That does my head in---laughing.

Chris

[Shadowman]

ENLIGHTENMENT - "occurs in the light" (from A Course in Miracles)
This rings true. In looking for a place to post it for your consideration, I came here.

Miracles are seen in light. The body's eyes do not perceive the light. But I am not a body.

...light is crucial. While you remain in darkness, the miracle remains unseen. Thus you are convinced it is not there.
This follows from the premises from which the darkness comes. Denial of light leads to failure to perceive it.
Failure to perceive light is to perceive darkness.
The light is useless to you then, even though it is there.
You cannot use it because its presence is unknown to you.
And the seeming reality of the darkness makes the idea of light meaningless.
To be told that what you do not see is there sounds like insanity.

The miracle is always there.
Its presence is not caused by your vision; its absence is not the result of your failure to see.
It is only your awareness of miracles that is affected.
You will see them in the light; you will not see them in the dark.


Hello Meggings,

Welcome to the thread and thank you for your post.

Relatively, my time on the forum currently is limited.

In order to be of service to you the following is put forward for your consideration;

1. Please differentiate between your own comments and quotes from other sources. The above is mostly
from Lesson 91 in the Course in Miracles, yet you only highlighted in blue the opening phrase;

http://www.acim.org/Lessons/lesson.html?lesson=91

2. Please read the opening post carefully. This, together with the links and subsequent posts should give you a clear
intellectual foundation of what is meant in this thread by enlightenment.

3. After doing so, if you find that the state hinted towards "rings true" for you, please give a brief description of your
attempts to realize it, including any specific techniques applied ie ACIM, Yoga in any of its forms, meditation, etc.

4. There is only one way for you to know without doubt the non dual reality, that is to realize it. Until then, humour me
for a moment. If you met an Awakened Being, but could only put forward one question concerning your own personal
enlightenment, or spiritual awakening, what would that be?

5. Please take your time formulating the question. The deeper and more genuine the enquiry, coming from your
"heart" or "being" rather than from any intellectual curiosity, or reaction, will likely derive greater insight/benefit.


6. The only worthwhile miracle is the evanescence or dissolution of the ego (which was never real in the first place).
Sinning (Biblical trans Hamartia - missing the "Point" ie unified eternal reality) is simply seeing the unreal as real.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamartia

Namaste/With Love
tim


The following clarifications are from Foundation for a Course in Miracles;

https://www.facim.org/online-learning-aids/glossary.aspx#happy-dream

Ego

the belief in the reality of the separated or false self, made as substitute for the Self Which God created; the thought
of separation that gives rise to sin, guilt, fear, and a thought system based on specialness to protect itself; the part
of the mind that believes it is separate from the Mind of Christ

Illusion

something that is believed to be real but is not; the ultimate illusion is the separation from God, upon which rest all the
manifestations of the separated world which may be understood as distortions in perception; i.e., seeing attack instead
of a call for love, sin instead of error; the illusions of the world reinforce the belief that the body has a value in and of
itself, a source of either pleasure or pain; forgiveness is the final illusion as it forgives what never was, and leads beyond
all illusion to the truth of God.

Knowledge

Heaven, or the pre-separation world of God and His unified creation in which there are no differences or forms, and thus
it is exclusive of the world of perception; not to be confused with the common use of " knowledge," which implies the dualism
of a subject who knows and an object which is known; in the Course it reflects the pure experience of non-duality, with no
subject-object dichotomy.

Heaven

the non-dualistic world of knowledge, wherein dwell God and His creation in the perfect unity of His Will and spirit; though
exclusive of the world of perception, Heaven can be reflected here in the holy relationship and the real world.


This course can therefore be summed up very simply in this way: Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.

[Meggings]

post removed; I ask your forgiveness
I cannot seem to keep my big mouth shut for long
Love to all,
M

[thunder24]

its funny to think one persons enlightenment is the same as anothers

[Rich]

I find this thread fascinating because of the many different perspectives presented, I do not believe in a final realization but that we are unlimited.



Thus again have I been out of body, seemingly melding with the Mind of God, and not carrying it back into the physical memory cells.


You may find sirdipswitch's thread of interest he talks about this: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?51152-The-Secret-Of-The-Soul-and-OBE

[Shadowman]

post removed; I ask your forgiveness
I cannot seem to keep my big mouth shut for long
Love to all,
M

Hi Margaret,

There is nothing to forgive.

You were simply expressing your perspective, based on your own experiences.
Before awakening I had several profound and/or extraordinary experiences similiar
to those described by you and Sebastion (Post #86). But these did not satisfy
my deep yearning to know God, or were temporary heightened states/satoris's.

Also, before realization I was always full of questions.

While attending meetings with the Sant Mat group it used to frustrate me no end
when every question seemingly was met with the response;

"Attend to your meditation"

In the search for truth/reality it all eventually comes down to one question "Who am I, really"

Ironically, to receive the answer, the mind must be set aside or quietened.

I cannot seem to keep my big mouth shut for long

Lol, perhaps here you are on the right track ....

They say silence is golden, so shut up and get rich ;-) (hence my avatar)

I honour your journey, and wish you love and laughter along the way.

All paths eventually lead to the mountain peak,

Namaste/With Love
tim

[Rich]

Tim, thanks for talking about your path, I think many of us can relate to this and it is encouraging me/us to carry on.

I do wonder, why are you against going to the Higher Self? I was thinking even if we are enlightened our higher self has to maintain
this dream for our personality, so it surely must know more than we do (while we are dreaming)!
I do believe and experience that there is no Higher or Smaller Self in absolute truth, there is just ''I'', ISness,
but relatively speaking, from life's perspective, I suspect we need the Higher Mind to guide us, because it sees what's going on and we do not.

[Shadowman]

Tim, thanks for talking about your path, I think many of us can relate to this and it is encouraging me/us to carry on.

I do wonder, why are you against going to the Higher Self? I was thinking even if we are enlightened our higher self has to maintain
this dream for our personality, so it surely must know more than we do (while we are dreaming)!
I do believe and experience that there is no Higher or Smaller Self in absolute truth, there is just ''I'', ISness,
but relatively speaking, from life's perspective, I suspect we need the Higher Mind to guide us, because it sees what's going on and we do not.

Hi EmEx,

I do wonder, why are you against going to the Higher Self?

The water is not against the rainbow, nor is the sky against the clouds. What is being offered is a clear distinction between Reality and illusions, for those who are ready to awaken from the dream of duality.

If you have to go somewhere to reach the higher self, it is not the Self referred to in the OP. Bodies and minds may appear to “go” places, but You are neither.

I was thinking even if we are enlightened our higher self has to maintain this dream for our personality, so it surely must know more than we do (while we are dreaming)!

It is the mind which maintains the dream. While there may well be levels of the mind, ego’s, higher selves and all manner of entities within duality, they are all unreal as relative separate forms (yet paradoxically real in the absolute sense, for nothing is or ever was separate from Reality. It is like all the characters in say a Batman movie appearing to be separate from one another, yet all are inseparable from the same screen on which they are projected.)

I do believe and experience that there is no Higher or Smaller Self in absolute truth, there is just ''I'', ISness, but relatively speaking, from life's perspective, I suspect we need the Higher Mind to guide us, because it sees what's going on and we do not.

Here you express an experiential understanding of the absolute truth, but then regress to the relative viewpoint. As you continue to remain as the ISness, the power of the illusory “we/I” that needs guidance will diminish. This can be accelerated by spiritual techniques or sadhana, or even by living a simple well ordered life and not giving reign to the passions of the mind. In short, lol....

Attend to your meditation....

In Lak'ech/ With Love
tim

[Guish]

This can be accelerated by spiritual techniques or sadhana, or even by living a simple well ordered life and not giving reign to the passions of the mind.
tim

Thanks, Tim. This is what I've been doing the last few years. A simple diet, simple lifestyle and simple way of tackling things. In simplicity lies divinity. Look at the healthiest food available out there; fruits, veggies, nuts.. They are very simple food. On the other hand, the other category of food may not be good for one's health. If one lives a simple life by being detached from material gain, it becomes simple but rich spiritually. People take so much stress and go home. Once, we realise it's useless to do so, we feel liberated. Feeling simple is a major shift. Controlling the mind to feel calm is not the way. There has to be a scientific way, hence meditation. However, I think some people are more inclined towards meditation. I've been a very quiet small child and staying alone has been something natural for me.

[panopticon]

If I am hungry I eat.
If I am thirsty I drink.
If I think "I want to go over there" I get up and go over there.

Simplicity is separate from action.
To seek simplicity creates attachment and want.

I don't think "I'm going to breath now". I just do.
Wu wei is acting without doing (or non-doing).

All this talk of higher selves and separate minds is camouflage for the ego to hide in.

I live in the world and participate as I feel the need.

Remember to breath.

-- Pan

[Guish]

Simplicity is an effect of the awakening process. No one seeks it. It just happens. Detachment, compassion and calmness are other effects. You can't create them. They just occur.

[Shadowman]

Controlling the mind to feel calm is not the way. There has to be a scientific way, hence meditation. However, I think some people are more inclined towards meditation.

Hi Geerish,

Welcome to the thread and thank you for your comments.

Any attempt to control the mind is by another aspect of the mind. It is the same with "doing" meditation as distinct from proper meditating, which is the cessation of all identification with doing.

This does not mean that the mind is not involved in the practical aspects of setting aside time regularly to practice. But once seated, the attention which is normally focused towards outer phenomena, be it sensory perceptions, thoughts or feelings, should be focused on that awareness in which such phenomena occur. By just witnessing the mind without judgement, and not being actively involved or identified, it will gradually quieten as a matter of course.

I was attracted to vipassana, zazen and vichara as they are direct simple methods, without ritual or mumbo jumbo. But in this day and age, as you pointed out, not all are compatible with silent meditation, at least initially. Which is where other methods, such as devotional dancing, singing or active service to others, may suit better,

Namaste/ In Lak'ech
tim

[Guish]

Controlling the mind to feel calm is not the way. There has to be a scientific way, hence meditation. However, I think some people are more inclined towards meditation.

Hi Geerish,

Welcome to the thread and thank you for your comments.

Any attempt to control the mind is by another aspect of the mind. It is the same with "doing" meditation as distinct from proper meditating, which is the cessation of all identification with doing.

This does not mean that the mind is not involved in the practical aspects of setting aside time regularly to practice. But once seated, the attention which is normally focused towards outer phenomena, be it sensory perceptions, thoughts or feelings, should be focused on that awareness in which such phenomena occur. By just witnessing the mind without judgement, and not being actively involved or identified, it will gradually quieten as a matter of course.

I was attracted to vipassana, zazen and vichara as they are direct simple methods, without ritual or mumbo jumbo. But in this day and age, as you pointed out, not all are compatible with silent meditation, at least initially. Which is where other methods, such as devotional dancing, singing or active service to others, may suit better,

Namaste/ In Lak'ech
tim

My experience is the same. I mentioned it earlier. One gets detached even from the idea of detachment with time. I started Zazen because it was simple to do. Enlightenment is really simple if one thinks about it. It's just hard if you are sill holding on to things. Right now, it's strange to talk to me. My wife would ask me if she's beautiful today and I'll tell her that Beauty is a mental construct. Haha. Eventually, the state in Zazen penetrates in all my activities. I'd teach in a detached way, do all my actions in such a way that they contribute to a bigger cause-alleviation of suffering of others, be very serene i most cases. Be very empty by guided by something...

Love,
Geerish.

[Rich]

It is the mind which maintains the dream. While there may well be levels of the mind, ego’s, higher selves and all manner of entities within duality, they are all unreal as relative separate forms

I think so too...but you got to consider that this earthly life may be a very limited and small aspect of ourselves.
So the question is how much can we really know from that little perspective?!

[Guish]

It is the mind which maintains the dream. While there may well be levels of the mind, ego’s, higher selves and all manner of entities within duality, they are all unreal as relative separate forms

I think so too...but you got to consider that this earthly life may be a very limited and small aspect of ourselves.
So the question is how much can we really know from that little perspective?!

Interesting Question. First everyone comes from the same source. However, everyone is not aware of this. They've created a false self/the ego and they try to satisfy the latter by accomplishing things. The source is always there but there are people who have many layers of ego and others who have few layers of ego. As one reaches the depth of the being, one realises that everything out there is just a manifestation of people's thoughts. Every single creation comes from the thoughts. Hence, what is real? The source. That's where people lose interest in the world. However, it's a trap. With your clear vision, you now see everything as a manifestation of spirit. One just needs to be. Things will just happen. However, looking at people's actions make them seem so uninteresting as they're all working for pride, greed which are baseless things. So, what's left? What do you do? The answer is nothing. You'lll see that your nothingness will alleviate pain without you realising it. Someone told me that he wanted to be alone and meditate. That's all he wants to do. Meditation doesn't teach to be alone. It's about discovering the being behind the thoughts. The answer is the perspective can be limited but you can search for your internal kingdom anywhere. There was one Zen teacher who used to live as a beggar because inner peace is well, inside.

[StandingWave]

Falling asleep while staying awake.

Staying awake while falling asleep.

[2cool]

Nature of all things is to arise and to pass away.
If we are aware of that, and if we are able to recognize thoughts just as thoughts appearing in consciousness
by using Mindfulness or Dzogchen practice we will be free from attachment to anything
which appears in front of us or in our mind.
We just need to cultivate our attention not to forget that.
Once we realize that, we will not become enlightened, but we will be "free from clinging to anything in the world".

I would recommend reading 3 books on this subject:

1. Sam Harris - Waking Up
2. Joseph Goldstein - Mindfulness (A Practical Guide to Awakening)
3. Analayo - Satipatthana (The Direct Path to Realization)


Once you read those 3 books it will become crystal clear what i wanted to say at beginning.

Regards

[Guish]

Nature of all things is to arise and to pass away.
If we are aware of that, and if we are able to recognize thoughts just as thoughts appearing in consciousness
by using Mindfulness or Dzogchen practice we will be free from attachment to anything
which appears in front of us or in our mind.
We just need to cultivate our attention not to forget that.
Once we realize that, we will not become enlightened, but we will be "free from clinging to anything in the world".

I would recommend reading 3 books on this subject:

1. Sam Harris - Waking Up
2. Joseph Goldstein - Mindfulness (A Practical Guide to Awakening)
3. Analayo - Satipatthana (The Direct Path to Realization)


Once you read those 3 books it will become crystal clear what i wanted to say at beginning.

Regards

One word- Impermanence.

[Shadowman]

It is the mind which maintains the dream. While there may well be levels of the mind, ego’s, higher selves and all manner of entities within duality, they are all unreal as relative separate forms

I think so too...but you got to consider that this earthly life may be a very limited and small aspect of ourselves.
So the question is how much can we really know from that little perspective?!

Hi EmEx,

Enlightenment is that transcendent or plenary reality in which the relative limited aspects or ego's appear. It is not and cannot be "known" by the limited relative aspect, or ego. An illusion cannot "know" reality. Can Gandalf "know" J R R Tolkein? Can NEO, even after having become the ONE in the Matrix/Illusion, know the Wachowski's?

However, when the mind, or conceptual self/ego, becomes silent/inactive, reality is "realized". This is not an accomplishment or acquisition of knowledge by the ego, but rather, what IS... (which is prior to, during and subsequent to the ego's relative temporary appearance/manifestation)

This, what IS, cannot be realized by questions, or any other function of the intellect. Paradoxically and ironically, it takes many people millions of questions to understand this. Nisargadatta's great fortune was to be simple enough to trust his guru 100% when the guru told him he was already the Supreme Being, and to earnestly "practice" or "abide" in that state as far as he was able to thereafter.

If you are able to grok this directly, the clouds can clear "in the twinkling of an eye" and enlightenment can be sudden. But unless "a dude abides" in the "undifferentiated what IS" the momentum of the mind and ego will reassert themselves due to momentum or conditioning. Eventually however the absolute wins out over the relative, as symbolised/depicted by Buddha's victory over Mara, Christ's victory over Satan, and hinted towards by Krishna's instructions to Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita.

It is the same with meditating. No amount of meditating will enlighten an ego, so as long as there is identification with an ego, meditation will be a form of doing by the ego, as indicated by the following exchange;

Nanyue Polishes a Brick
Zen master Mazu Daoyi (Baso) was an attendant to Nanyue and personally received the mind seal from him, exceeding his peers. Before that, he lived in Kaiyuan Monastery and did zazen all day long. Knowing that Mazu was a dharma vessel, Nanyue went to him and asked,
“Great monastic, what do you intend by doing zazen?”
Baso said, “I am intending to be a buddha.”
Nanyue picked up a brick and started polishing it.
Baso said, “What are you doing?”
Nanyue said,”I am trying to make a mirror,”
Baso said, “How can you make a mirror by polishing a brick?”
Nanyue said, “How can you become a buddha by doing zazen?”
Baso said,"What do you mean by that?"
Nanyue said,”Think about driving a cart. When it stops moving, do you whip the cart or the horse?”
Baso said nothing.

Nanvue said,”Do you want to practice sitting Zen or sitting Buddha? If you understand sitting Zen, you will know that Zen is not about sitting or lying down. If you want to learn sitting Buddha, know that sitting Buddha is without any fixed form. Do not use discrimination in the non-abiding dharma. If you practice sitting as Buddha, you must kill Buddha.’’ If you are attached to the sitting form, you are not yet mastering the essential principle. Mazu heard this admonition and felt as if he had tasted sweet nectar.


http://oldschoolzen.blogspot.com.au/p/koans-masters.html

So stop identifying/being/whipping the cart/ego and focus your attention/identification on the horse/awareness

With Love/ Namaste
tim

[Innocent Warrior]

Hi tim :)

First time seeing your thread just now. I've only read the OP and I already have a question but I will read through the thread first before posing any questions.

I saw SatndingWave's post and got all excited, I don't see these words often.


Staying awake while falling asleep.

This can be done, literally, and I want to encourage any folks reading this to practice it, if in any way interested in doing so. I won't say anymore and will leave the result as a surprise to discover.

<3

[Avuso]

Here is another first-hand account of enlightenment. Usually monks will not talk about this, but Ajahn Maha Boowa (1913-2011) chose to tell it all in order to counter a prevailing belief of his time that the path to enlightenment had been lost to humanity. I recommend the first talk in the PDF (p. 11-40) as an easy read telling about his life, and the few words about the actual moment of awakening is pages 34-36. Sorry, I couldn't find the talk outside of this PDF!
http://www.forestdhamma.org/ebooks/english/pdf/Samana.pdf
http://www.forestdhamma.org/ebooks/english/pdf/Samana.pdf

[Enola]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbXgG3DLNGY

[Enola]

He was very Kundalini, wasn't he?

[Shadowman]

He was very Kundalini, wasn't he?

Hi Enola,

Thanks for your posts and welcome to the thread.

In Advaita there are 5 sheaths - Material Body, Pranic or Etheric (ie Life Force), Mana (ie Mind), Buddhi (Higher Mind/Intuition/Wisdom) and Bliss.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosha

I would correlate Kundalini with the Pranic Sheath.

All such descriptions within duality are like metaphors ie fingers pointing (beyond the mind and duality) to the full moon (Absolute Reality or Being).

As such all have inherent limitations, while at the same time serving a purpose for seekers.

Identification with each sheath (which are increasingly subtle) must be transcended to "arrive" at, or realize the Self,

Alone/enolA (=All One)/ Namaste
tim

[greybeard]

Good to see "you" posting on "your" thread Tim.
For me you are the authority regarding Enlightenment on Avalon.
Please keep it coming.
Much love
Chris

[Enola]

He was very Kundalini, wasn't he?

Hi Enola,

Thanks for your posts and welcome to the thread.

In Advaita there are 5 sheaths - Material Body, Pranic or Etheric (ie Life Force), Mana (ie Mind), Buddhi (Higher Mind/Intuition/Wisdom) and Bliss.

I would correlate Kundalini with the Pranic Sheath.

All such descriptions within duality are like metaphors ie fingers pointing (beyond the mind and duality) to the full moon (Absolute Reality or Being).

As such all have inherent limitations, while at the same time serving a purpose for seekers.

Identification with each sheath (which are increasingly subtle) must be transcended to "arrive" at, or realize the Self,

Alone/enolA (=All One)/ Namaste
tim



Thanks for your comments. I tend to think of the higher self like this:


http://www.omraam.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/natures.gif


When you say the "Self" are you talking about the highest self or the monad/Godself?

Because when I think about enlightenment I think about integrating the intermediate higher self. If I could integrate the higher mind and the buddhic love/bliss body I think I would be content.

I know that it goes on and on to higher and higher levels but I can't imagine what that would be like.

[Shadowman]

Thanks for your comments. I tend to think of the higher self like this:


http://www.omraam.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/natures.gif


When you say the "Self" are you talking about the highest self or the monad/Godself?

Because when I think about enlightenment I think about integrating the intermediate higher self. If I could integrate the higher mind and the buddhic love/bliss body I think I would be content.

I know that it goes on and on to higher and higher levels but I can't imagine what that would be like.

Hi Enola,

By "Self" I mean the Absolute or Plenary Reality or Source in which all appearances take place.

A search of the links in the opening post or a reading of this thread will give you a broader view of what is meant. There are a number of books and teachers also recommended to look into if you are so inclined.

While it is extremely difficult to accurately convey using conventional language, the opening post is one such effort to describe the indescribable.

The only way to spiritually realize or have gnosis, as opposed to conceptual or intellectual knowledge, is to set aside that with which you usually "know" things ie the mind. In doing so, that which magically creates the illusion of a separate or individual "self" is penetrated and the apocalypse occurs.

(1125-75; Middle English < Late Latin apocalypsis < Greek apokálypsis revelation, equivalent to apokalýp (tein) to uncover, reveal )[/COLOR]

What seemed to be confined within the form of your body is now not only everywhere, but more accurately is the source of both space and time...

The goose (your true Self) has never been confined in a bottle (form/mind/body)...

http://www.oshorajneesh.com/download/osho-books/responses_to_questions/The_Goose_is_Out.pdf


"Because when I think about enlightenment I think about integrating the intermediate higher self. If I could integrate the higher mind and the buddhic love/bliss body I think I would be content."


You don't have to integrate, attain or earn what is Real, for you are already IT. In order to integrate, something must first be divided. But the Absolute is whole/holy and all that is required is to remove the illusions and obstacles (maya), which are all created by the mind.

In Exodus God gives the meaning of his name to Moses as I AM THAT I AM. This is as clear a definition of Absolute Being as you will find. The mind attempts to usurp the authority of Absolute Being by the simple trick of adding limitations after I AM ie I am a man/woman/human/higher mind/soul/child/sinner/saint/etc

As long as you believe the lie, that you are some form, and not the I AM, you have something to defend, and something to fear and something to desire.

As mentioned above in #275 the higher mind or Buddhi sheath and the Ananda or bliss sheath are both to be transcended, not integrated. They are subtle aspects of form, or subtle aspects of the unreal. (NB the bliss sheath referred to here is not the same as the uncaused bliss which is an "attribute" of the Self referred to in the Hindu term SatChitAnanda ie ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda

"I know that it goes on and on to higher and higher levels but I can't imagine what that would be like."

Levels exist in relativity or duality. As long as the dream exists there will be levels or states, all the way from the most beatific and blissful to the most horrific and painful. But on awakening from the dream of impermanent phenomena, it is realized that separate appearances (ie things, including ones own ego/self) or experienced states were all unreal...

What is, IS (eternally) What ain't, ain't (and never was)

Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.

Once this is spiritually realized fear and desire are powerless. Only LOVE truly IS. God is this unassailable LOVE,

With (unassailable) Love/ In Lak'ech
tim

[greybeard]

From my own experience of Kundalini I would not claim it to be an awakening (not of the personal me) --the energy awakens and begins clearing the obstacles to Enlightenment as it moves up through the chakras. When this is complete, then there is the possibility that ignorance is removed and there is Realisation of the Self.

With love
c

[ZooLife]

There is no one in duality

http://img05.deviantart.net/afb5/i/2010/003/3/b/love_waits_for_no_one_by_sparklezdtr.jpg

[Enola]

Can I ask what kind of meditation styles you like or find the most effective? I always wonder what type is best for raising your consciousness.

I still find all these subtle bodies a bit confusing. Or, I've been kind of thinking what most mean by enlightenment is realising their casual, buddhic, or atmic bodies, and that realsiation of the ultimate Self is more uncommon and reserved for a few special cases, like Jesus. To represent God on earth like that.

Although I guess you also might say we are all born resting in that self. I remember when my sister brought her daughter over when she was six months old she had this awestruck look on her face that babies can have. She looked completely holy, and in a very powerful way, it was almost terrible to look at.

[greybeard]

Hi Enola
This one of the meditations I use.
There is a lot of information on it too.
Otherwise I just sit still in silence.
Much Love
Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IdtGGVUmmA

[greybeard]

Hi Enola
Sorry----I had not realised the question on meditation is really addressed to Tim.

Chris

[Shadowman]

Can I ask what kind of meditation styles you like or find the most effective? I always wonder what type is best for raising your consciousness.

I still find all these subtle bodies a bit confusing. Or, I've been kind of thinking what most mean by enlightenment is realising their casual, buddhic, or atmic bodies, and that realsiation of the ultimate Self is more uncommon and reserved for a few special cases, like Jesus. To represent God on earth like that.

Although I guess you also might say we are all born resting in that self. I remember when my sister brought her daughter over when she was six months old she had this awestruck look on her face that babies can have. She looked completely holy, and in a very powerful way, it was almost terrible to look at.

Hi Enola,

Different types of sadhana appeal to different people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81dhan%C4%81 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81dhan%C4%81)

The styles which best suited my temperament were those which applied a direct approach ie vipassana, zazen and vichara.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry_%28Ramana_Maharshi%29 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry_%28Ramana_Maharshi%29)

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=472609&viewfull=1#post472609

Generally speaking most paths can be divided into two categories. The "path" of Love ie Bhakti or Karma Yoga for those that are predominantly emotionally or heart driven, and the "path" of wisdom ie Jnana Yoga for those that are more intellectually predisposed. Whether you begin in Love or Wisdom, in the end you find they lead to the same Realization.

Just experiment with different types to find which best suits you. As long as your intent to know God/Reality/Self is authentic and sincere, and supersedes any worldly goals or pursuits, you will find yourself being guided or inspired to investigate particular teachers/paths. Sometimes such guidance can take the form of unusual events or synchronicities. Such events, like experiences you may have during sadhana techniques, act like signposts. Just don't get attached to having or expecting either of them. Every journey home is unique.

She looked completely holy, and in a very powerful way, it was almost terrible to look at

Yes, unless you become as little children....(whose pure awareness is less obscured by the conditioned mind). It is terrifying, to the ego. It is a glimpse of the egoless state which threatens the ego's illusions of both existence and continuity. The irony is that once the ego subsides, what was seen/imagined by the mind to be terrible, is supremely peaceful and blissful,

With Love
tim

[joeecho]

If one believes they are in an egoless state, that is the ego believing it.

[Guish]

If one believes they are in an egoless state, that is the ego believing it.

There's no belief at that point. Only Spontaneous actions.

[joeecho]

If one believes they are in an egoless state, that is the ego believing it.

There's no belief at that point. Only Spontaneous actions.

Ego doesn't have to believe in itself to be ego. Ego not believing in itself is still ego believing in itself. Funny how that works.

[Rich]

What I have seen from contemplating this thread for days, is that they in themselves have become fixed points - beliefs about what enlightenment is.

Even the sense of have of Awareness/Consciousness that this was the One, Eternal, Real, I am now questioning. And I am questioning the sense of it, not just the belief of it.

What if this too, Awareness/Consciousness, is still the illusion?

And how do we distinguish them? What makes one thing more real than another?

[greybeard]

What I have seen from contemplating this thread for days, is that they in themselves have become fixed points - beliefs about what enlightenment is.

Even the sense of have of Awareness/Consciousness that this was the One, Eternal, Real, I am now questioning. And I am questioning the sense of it, not just the belief of it.

What if this too, Awareness/Consciousness, is still the illusion?

And how do we distinguish them? What makes one thing more real than another?

Good to see you posting EmEx.
I miss Jenci--a lot of good posts from her.
From my understanding the only thing that "I" can be sure of is that "I am" there is an awareness of what Chris the persona is doing therefore, that is, or seems separate from, yet part of I.
However I get intellectually that there is no subject or object,all just is.

Ch

[Shadowman]

What I have seen from contemplating this thread for days, is that they in themselves have become fixed points - beliefs about what enlightenment is.

Even the sense of have of Awareness/Consciousness that this was the One, Eternal, Real, I am now questioning. And I am questioning the sense of it, not just the belief of it.

What if this too, Awareness/Consciousness, is still the illusion?

And how do we distinguish them? What makes one thing more real than another?

Good to see you posting EmEx.
I miss Jenci--a lot of good posts from her.
From my understanding the only thing that "I" can be sure of is that "I am" there is an awareness of what Chris the persona is doing therefore, that is, or seems separate from, yet part of I.
However I get intellectually that there is no subject or object,all just is.

Ch

Aloha Chris & Emex,

The confusion only exists in the mind and words. Awareness/Consciousness, in relation to the subjective self/ego, refer to the limited illusory conceptual thoughts, or, if you prefer, everything you say that comes after I am... ie I am a man. This is equivalent in most peoples minds, to everyday waking consciousness.

Awareness/Consciousness, in relation to Reality, refers to what is Real, Absolute and Eternal. It is the truth of what you are, hence the statement to Moses, I am that I am. It is equivalent to that which witnesses all three subordinate states ie waking, sleeping and dreaming.

To use a metaphor, consider an empty room. Now consider the space in that room as awareness. Relatively, as we add boxes of goods (thoughts or beliefs) to the room we have less space. But in the absolute sense, the space in the room remains the same, whether it is full or empty. One is permanent, the other is illusory and impermanent. The absolute space can and does exist with or without the impermanent boxes, but the boxes cannot exist without the absolute space.

Distinguishing is a function of the mind. You can not arrive at the Absolute by the use of the relative mind. It requires a direct insight/satori/gnosis as opposed to intellectual understanding.

Chris has succinctly answered your question by suggesting you turn your outward facing distinguishing mind towards it’s source, the ever present I am.

Bodhidharma also put it succinctly,

A special transmission outside the scriptures
Not founded upon words and letters;
By pointing directly to [one's] mind
It lets one see into [one's own true] nature and [thus] attain Buddhahood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharma

I elaborated further in two previous responses to you and Jen;

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=472609&viewfull=1#post472609

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=960572&viewfull=1#post960572

A close reading of the first post will let you in on the joke when I say to you;

Stop sinning! And lay off the apples from the tree of knowledge at the centre of the garden!

To seek mind with the discriminating (distinguishing? :bigsmile: ) mind is the greatest of all mistakes - Sosan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinxin_Ming

In Lakech
tim

[joeecho]

Awareness doesn't have a twin, at least one that it knows of. It may make one up but that doesn't count.

[Shadowman]

If one believes they are in an egoless state, that is the ego believing it.


Awareness doesn't have a twin, at least one that it knows of. It may make one up but that doesn't count.

Hi Joeecho,

Yes, quite so. In your first statement both the one who believes - the ego, and the belief's themselves, are illusions.

It is like a shadow proclaiming itself to be the light, because it's form/shape is self apparent due to an obstruction of the light.

The paradox is that when a Buddha makes the same statement, they are expressing a profound truth, albeit using relative terms. Of course they are not expressing a belief, but stating a Self Realized, Self evident insight/fact or Reality.

The "true light" is apparent in the absence of the shadow (ego/separate self). The shadow does not become the "light" source ie enlightened, for it is but a phenomenal manifestation, an illusion, caused by the obfuscation or obstruction of the pure light. The irony is, however, that in order to point towards this awakening, the shadow self is "apparently" necessary to communicate with "other" shadow self's, for few understand the most direct pointer ie silence.

For insight as to why I say "apparently", a close examination of the "Diamond Sutra", specifically in relation to the attainment of merit, may help resolve the paradox of using an illusory self to point towards the Real Self.

“All living beings, whether born from eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do not have form; whether they are aware or unaware, whether they are not aware or not unaware, all living beings will eventually be led by me to the final Nirvana, the final ending of the cycle of birth and death. And when this unfathomable, infinite number of living beings have all been liberated, in truth not even a single being has actually been liberated.”

http://diamond-sutra.com/

The outer illusory self, or guru/teacher, leads one along the path to awakening using different devices. The seeker is led to the inner self, or witness, along the way. Ultimately however, "the reflection on the Self which is thus practised constantly, will destroy the ego/mind, and thereafter will destroy itself like the stick that is used to kindle the cinders burning a corpse. It is this state that is called release." - (paraphrased from p33 The Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi)

Mansoor Al-Hallaj was condemned to hang by the neck for shouting in ecstasy Anal-Haq, Anal-Haq (I am the Truth, I am the Truth). The orthodoxy understood this to mean that he was claiming to be God himself, whereas he had proclaimed in his sublime spiritual ecstasy, simply a total annihilation of himself.

As the Self, all is real. Apart from the Self, nothing is real - Nisargadatta.

I and the Father are one - Jesus


Re your second statement, yes, Reality is without a second (in both the literal and temporal sense lol ). I suspect you were being jovial in saying it may make one up, I would suggest it is the mind which makes things up...

(30) Anyone who sees that all activities certainly in all respects are the result of material conditioning and that one as the soul is not the doer, sees perfectly. (31) When one following that tries to see that the diversity of the living beings is resting in oneness and that it expanded to that reality, at that time one attains the Absolute of the Spirit.

(32) This inexhaustible soul is because of being beginningless and its freedom from the modes of nature of the beyond; although embodied, oh son of Kuntî, it never does anything nor is it entangled. (33) As the ether is all pervading and in its subtlety never mixes with anything, so does the soul within the body never mix. (34) Like one sun illumining the whole world, so does the soul within this body similarly illumine all, oh son of Bharata. (35) Those who, through spiritual insight, thus know of the difference between the field and the knower of the field and know about the liberation of the living being from [suffering] material nature; they reach the Supreme.' - Bhagavad Gita Ch 13 30 - 35


Namaste
tim

[greybeard]

Good to see you posting Tim.
It gives us a reality check----perhaps I am too fond of story telling.

Ch

[joeecho]

Yes, quite so. In your first statement both the one who believes - the ego, and the belief's themselves, are illusions.


Hi Tim,

Excellent post as always. Reality check(s) is one of the most interesting things about life, IMO.

The odd twist is that that too is a belief/ shadow though at least it casts on itself revealing it's limitation. The ego/ mind merrily goes a'round, entertaining for sure.


Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream,
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream

It's the last part (Life is but a dream) that ego/ mind has trouble with in large part because it's a part. Mind thinks it created the dream implying an external existence to said dream.

"I' row but under no illusion that it gets 'me' out of the stream. That which is out of the stream has nothing to say in the matter. To help one out of the stream one must get in the stream but then 'who' is out of the stream to help the two?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HJ-rI7QgzC8/VaA76XUsmMI/AAAAAAAAAnE/n45CCDVRcjo/s1600/corgi.gif

[joeecho]

Follow up: I imagine one reading the above would suggest "what stream"? And by extension 'what Project Avalon'? Which brings me back to a self reference:


That which is out of the stream has nothing to say in the matter.

Note: I had to self reference because that dude out of the stream isn't talking! (ego having a little silly fun)

[Rich]

Good to see you guys :highfive:, I enjoy this thread because of the different perspectives and read it several times.

I wonder if anything definable can truly be real? because what can be defined can also change.
What is truly mind blowing: how did we come up with the idea of the body (human or otherwise)?:sherlock:

[Shadowman]

Yes, quite so. In your first statement both the one who believes - the ego, and the belief's themselves, are illusions.


Hi Tim,

Excellent post as always. Reality check(s) is one of the most interesting things about life, IMO.

The odd twist is that that too is a belief/ shadow though at least it casts on itself revealing it's limitation. The ego/ mind merrily goes a'round, entertaining for sure.


Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream,
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream

It's the last part (Life is but a dream) that ego/ mind has trouble with in large part because it's a part. Mind thinks it created the dream implying an external existence to said dream.

"I' row but under no illusion that it gets 'me' out of the stream. That which is out of the stream has nothing to say in the matter. To help one out of the stream one must get in the stream but then 'who' is out of the stream to help the two?



Thankyou for your kind words and insightful post Joeecho,

Allow me to shed light on a mystery and paradox of immense/no importance, (depending on who you are).

It is true that That which is out of the stream has nothing to say on the matter, as hinted at in the BG quote from Ch 13 in my last post.

However, the undistorted "reflection" of the Absolute, in an awakened Christ/Buddha/Avatar, can function like a lighthouse, both guiding ships to "safe harbour" and illuminating obstacles.

Say a "map" pointing the way home was reflected in a lake. Only when the lake is perfectly still and undisturbed is the reflection clear and helpful.

Guidance, inspiration and instruction from such a one can help not only to alleviate suffering in this world, but reveal to you the open Cosmic Secret - Your True Self.

As one's understanding and insight deepens, guidance can appear anywhere... In a song, the words of a stranger, nature or a poem...

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream,
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream

At the beginning of the journey the "rower" appears to operate their boat. Not knowing which way to go, just go/row with the flow - Walk On!

A master of Zen Buddhism who when asked "What is truth?" replied "Walk On!"

https://www.amazon.com/Walk-Quest-Book-Christmas-Humphreys/dp/0835604195

https://www.slideshare.net/ianellis-jones/walking-in-the-eternal-now

By moving gently (devoid/detached from desires/aversions, treating all with equanimity), one becomes a stream enterer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sot%C4%81panna

As one shifts identification from the unreal to the real, the "peace that passeth beyond understanding" or the uncaused Joy of Being (Ananda), free of fear, one treads lightly and merrily, symbolised by the tenth bull...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls

https://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/209678_f520.jpg

Ultimately it is Realised life is just a dream, the stream merges into the Ocean, and you arrive at That which you never actually left, the goose was already out!

https://www.spiritual-short-stories.com/goose-is-out-norwegian-story-by-osho/

In Lakech
tim

[Shadowman]

Follow up: I imagine one reading the above would suggest "what stream"? And by extension 'what Project Avalon'? Which brings me back to a self reference:


That which is out of the stream has nothing to say in the matter.

Note: I had to self reference because that dude out of the stream isn't talking! (ego having a little silly fun)

Yes, let's have a little fun.

When I was young I liked to look in the mirror and laughingly tell the reflection "You don't exist" :bigsmile:

It was only as I grew older I realised the reflection was telling me the same thing!:facepalm:

https://verse333.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/matrix01.jpg?w=636

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/41/59/93/415993ba011d93eaade036cbf9231258--chuang-tzu-eastern-philosophy.jpg

In Love and Laughter
tim

[Rich]

It seems the body is something very specific and concrete,
on closer look however, it is seen as abstract and undefinable or non existent,
whether as a feeling or intellectually.
The other day I saw a youtube about a Vipassana practitioner who said:
The body does not exist and the body parts do not exist,
it is our thoughts that label sensations as being “my arm”, “my leg” and so on.


The "Hero" of the Dream

The body is the central figure in the dreaming of the world. There is no dream without it, nor does it exist without the dream in which it acts as if it were a person to be seen and be believed. It takes the central place in every dream, which tells the story of how it was made by other bodies, born into the world outside the body, lives a little while and dies, to be united in the dust with other bodies dying like itself. In the brief time allotted it to live, it seeks for other bodies as its friends and enemies. Its safety is its main concern. Its comfort is its guiding rule. It tries to look for pleasure, and avoid the things that would be hurtful. Above all, it tries to teach itself its pains and joys are different and can be told apart.

The dreaming of the world takes many forms, because the body seeks in many ways to prove it is autonomous and real. It puts things on itself that it has bought with little metal discs or paper strips the world proclaims as valuable and real. It works to get them, doing senseless things, and tosses them away for senseless things it does not need and does not even want.

It hires other bodies, that they may protect it and collect more senseless things that it can call its own. It looks about for special bodies that can share its dream. Sometimes it dreams it is a conqueror of bodies weaker than itself. But in some phases of the dream, it is the slave of bodies that would hurt and torture it.
The body's serial adventures, from the time of birth to dying are the theme of every dream the world has ever had. The "hero" of this dream will never change, nor will its purpose. Though the dream itself takes many forms, and seems to show a great variety of places and events wherein its "hero" finds itself, the dream has but one purpose, taught in many ways. This single lesson does it try to teach again, and still again, and yet once more; that it is cause and not effect. And you are its effect, and cannot be its cause.
Thus are you not the dreamer, but the dream. And so you wander idly in and out of places and events that it contrives. That this is all the body does is true, for it is but a figure in a dream.
But who reacts to figures in a dream unless he sees them as if they were real? The instant that he sees them as they are they have no more effects on him, because he understands he gave them their effects by causing them and making them seem real.

How willing are you to escape effects of all the dreams the world has ever had? Is it your wish to let no dream appear to be the cause of what it is you do? Then let us merely look upon the dream's beginning, for the part you see is but the second part, whose cause lies in the first. No one asleep and dreaming in the world remembers his attack upon himself. No one believes there really was a time when he knew nothing of a body, and could never have conceived this world as real. He would have seen at once that these ideas are one illusion, too ridiculous for anything but to be laughed away. How serious they now appear to be! And no one can remember when they would have met with laughter and with disbelief. We can remember this, if we but look directly at their cause. And we will see the grounds for laughter, not a cause for fear.

Let us return the dream he gave away unto the dreamer, who perceives the dream as separate from himself and done to him. Into eternity, where all is one, there crept a tiny, mad idea, at which the Son of God remembered not to laugh. In his forgetting did the thought become a serious idea, and possible of both accomplishment and real effects. Together, we can laugh them both away, and understand that time cannot intrude upon eternity. It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity, which means there is no time.

A timelessness in which is time made real; a part of God that can attack itself; a separate brother as an enemy; a mind within a body all are forms of circularity whose ending starts at its beginning, ending at its cause. The world you see depicts exactly what you thought you did. Except that now you think that what you did is being done to you. The guilt for what you thought is being placed outside yourself, and on a guilty world that dreams your dreams and thinks your thoughts instead of you. It brings its vengeance, not your own. It keeps you narrowly confined within a body, which it punishes because of all the sinful things the body does within its dream. You have no power to make the body stop its evil deeds because you did not make it, and cannot control its actions nor its purpose nor its fate.

The world but demonstrates an ancient truth; you will believe that others do to you exactly what you think you did to them. But once deluded into blaming them you will not see the cause of what they do, because you want the guilt to rest on them. How childish is the petulant device to keep your innocence by pushing guilt outside yourself, but never letting go! It is not easy to perceive the jest when all around you do your eyes behold its heavy consequences, but without their trifling cause. Without the cause do its effects seem serious and sad indeed. Yet they but follow. And it is their cause that follows nothing and is but a jest.
In gentle laughter does the Holy Spirit perceive the cause, and looks not to effects. How else could He correct your error, who have overlooked the cause entirely?
He bids you bring each terrible effect to Him that you may look together on its foolish cause and laugh with Him a while. You judge effects, but He has judged their cause. And by His judgment are effects removed. Perhaps you come in tears. But hear Him say, "My brother, holy Son of God, behold your idle dream, in which this could occur. "And you will leave the holy instant with your laughter and your brother's joined with His.

The secret of salvation is but this: that you are doing this unto yourself. No matter what the form of the attack, this still is true. Whoever takes the role of enemy and of attacker, still is this the truth. Whatever seems to be the cause of any pain and suffering you feel, this is still true. For you would not react at all to figures in a dream you knew that you were dreaming. Let them be as hateful and as vicious as they may, they could have no effect on you unless you failed to recognize it is your dream.

This single lesson learned will set you free from suffering, whatever form it takes. The Holy Spirit will repeat this one inclusive lesson of deliverance
until it has been learned, regardless of the form of suffering that brings you pain. Whatever hurt you bring to Him He will make answer with this very simple truth. For this one answer takes away the cause of every form of sorrow and of pain. The form affects His answer not at all, for He would teach you but the single cause of all of them, no matter what their form. And you will understand that miracles reflect the simple statement, " I have done this thing, and it is this I would undo. "
Bring, then, all forms of suffering to Him Who knows that every one is like the rest. He sees no differences where none exists, and He will teach you how each one is caused. None has a different cause from all the rest, and all of them are easily undone by but a single lesson truly learned.

Salvation is a secret you have kept but from yourself. The universe proclaims it so. Yet to its witnesses you pay no heed at all. For they attest the thing you do not want to know. They seem to keep it secret from you. Yet you need but learn you chose but not to listen, not to see.
How differently will you perceive the world when this is recognized! When you forgive the world your guilt, you will be free of it. Its innocence does not demand your guilt, nor does your guiltlessness rest on its sins. This is the obvious; a secret kept from no one but yourself. And it is this that has maintained you separate from the world, and kept your brother separate from you. Now need you but to learn that both of you are innocent or guilty. The one thing that is impossible is that you be unlike each other; that they both be true. This is the only secret yet to learn. And it will be no secret you are healed.

[Shadowman]

Good to see you guys :highfive:, I enjoy this thread because of the different perspectives and read it several times.

I wonder if anything definable can truly be real? because what can be defined can also change.
What is truly mind blowing: how did we come up with the idea of the body (human or otherwise)?:sherlock:

More to the point can what is real be truly defined?

Trying to define the Real with words makes fitting the ocean into a thimble childsplay :highfive:

No harm in trying though, eh?

"We the unwilling, led by the unqualified, have been doing the unbelievable, for so long, with so little, we now attempt the impossible with nothing."

In Love and Laughter
tim

[joeecho]

When I was young I liked to look in the mirror and laughingly tell the reflection "You don't exist" :bigsmile:

It was only as I grew older I realised the reflection was telling me the same thing!:facepalm:


Then you're going to enjoy the meme down below:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/6b/12/00/6b1200b4a0bb6cb42de8318e987f5418.jpg

It's not only from 'others' that one can receive understanding from. It's like if one wants to learn about the mind, one has a laboratory right inside their own head for firsthand experiments. To get outside ones head all one has to do is observe someone else and realize they are in 'character' without even being aware of it. It's harder, for me, to recognize I am deep into character unless I am in a quiet place and 'settled'. It is then that I realize I am not that which reflects nor the reflection observed. It is then that I come to grips with the implication referred in the expression netti netti. The thing is tim, once I leave this quiet settled place I revert back to a version of my character and temporarily lose sight of that awareness of who I truly am for lack of a better term. The only thing I can surmise is that 'reality over the eyes' is one hell of a blue pill (Falsehood, security and the blissful ignorance of illusion).

[joeecho]

As one's understanding and insight deepens, guidance can appear anywhere... In a song, the words of a stranger, nature or a poem...


Or from a single grain of sand.

[joeecho]

If the mind is capable of clarity through ignorance and the mind is illusory then how does one determine if the clarity itself is not, along with everything else, an illusion? If IT be nonexistent in an existent 'reality' IT is ultimately realized through a form of faith as the intellectual/ enlightenment way only goes so far.

http://cdn-media-2.lifehack.org/wp-content/files/2015/06/677f5353ef0b2c0f292d1fe8cdfa32e0.jpg

[Shadowman]

It's harder, for me, to recognize I am deep into character unless I am in a quiet place and 'settled'. It is then that I realize I am not that which reflects nor the reflection observed. It is then that I come to grips with the implication referred in the expression netti netti. The thing is tim, once I leave this quiet settled place I revert back to a version of my character and temporarily lose sight of that awareness of who I truly am for lack of a better term. The only thing I can surmise is that 'reality over the eyes' is one hell of a blue pill (Falsehood, security and the blissful ignorance of illusion).

Earnest persistence in your chosen technique is key Joeecho.

Whatever comes and goes, or is sensed, perceived or cognized is not Reality, hence netti netti.

Include the "I" that reverts back in your netti netti approach.

As far as possible, both during and outside your quiet settled place (meditation?) keep your attention/focus on the unseen I am/presence/awareness, the knower of the field.

He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" - Luke 10:27


If the mind is capable of clarity through ignorance and the mind is illusory then how does one determine if the clarity itself is not, along with everything else, an illusion? If IT be nonexistent in an existent 'reality' IT is ultimately realized through a form of faith as the intellectual/ enlightenment way only goes so far.



It is not ignorance of the mind, but stillness/quiesence of the mind, wherein the Self is unobscured and self evident.

Be still, and know that I am God - Psalm 46:10

Find That and then see if questions arise as to it's authenticity. It has nothing to do with faith or the intellect.

I will be out of touch for a few weeks. There are more than enough hints/pointers/referrals in this thread, all of which ultimately lead to silence.

Practise your chosen technique in silence and ease up on the philosophizing, eh Jo. Questions lead to more questions.

The glimpses you have had will come more and more, and eventually, "all will be well"

With Love
tim

[joeecho]

Well received, tim.

The vibratory mind likes to share it's intrigues, pay no attention to mine.

[greybeard]

Appreciate your posts Tim and realise I might not get a response for a while.
Whats "your" take on free will?

Love Chris

[Rich]

Right now, billions of neurons in your brain are working together to generate a conscious experience -- and not just any conscious experience, your experience of the world around you and of yourself within it. How does this happen? According to neuroscientist Anil Seth, we're all hallucinating all the time; when we agree about our hallucinations, we call it "reality." Join Seth for a delightfully disorienting talk that may leave you questioning the very nature of your existence.
lyu7v7nWzfo

[Shadowman]

Appreciate your posts Tim and realise I might not get a response for a while.
Whats "your" take on free will?

Love Chris

Whose freewill?

Freewill is an ego phenomena. As long as their is identification with the ego, the ego appears to have freewill.

In actuality, in the absolute sense, no thing, act or person is really autonomous.Things happen and actions take place due to innumerable causes and actions within totality which are beyond the comprehension of the human mind. Everything appears as it appears, because of everything that has, is and will happen. This is where the cunning ego steps in and throwing up it's imaginary hands in confusion says to itself "well I might as well just do whatever the hell I want then" or " well I might just as well do nothing then" both of which reinforce the sense of doership, lol.

All doing and doership is in the realm of maya, in truth your Real Self does nothing. In the Nisargadatta quote below freewill is an aspect of Maya relating to the "he" who experiences existence.

In later Vedic texts and modern literature dedicated to Indian traditions, Māyā connotes a "magic show, an illusion where things appear to be present but are not what they seem". Māyā is also a spiritual concept connoting "that which exists, but is constantly changing and thus is spiritually unreal", and the "power or the principle that conceals the true character of spiritual reality".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)

All existence is in space and time, limited and temporary. He who experiences existence is also limited and temporary. I am not concerned either with ‘what exists’ or with ‘who exists’. I take my stand beyond, where I am both and neither. - Nisargadatta


The following is extracted from 'The Wisdom of Balsekar, edited by Alan Jacobs, the chairman of the Ramana Maharshi Foundation UK.

Nobody likes being told that he has no free will. And yet look at the state of the world at the present time. The world is on the brink of disaster, where it has been for many years now with one crisis after another. The question - the big question - therefore remains: The human being certainly has tremendous intelligence (to send a man to the moon); he is also supposed to have free will - then why has the human being been unable to combine his intelligence and his free will to make the world a better place?!

There is also another aspect. There are so many intelligent people, leaders in their respective fields, who are very much interested in knowing their future. If they really believed in their own free will, why would they be so interested in astrology and similar phenomena?!

If you think along these lines, the only reasonable conclusion you will arrive at is that the human being has been acting in this fashion because he has no control over his thoughts and emotions. What he considers as his actions are in fact only reactions of the individual organism to an outside impulse: a thought which occurs, an event that he sees or perhaps what he happens to hear. Each organism reacts according to the natural characteristics with which it has been programmed: physical, mental, intellectual, temperamental.

Another difficulty about truly accepting this teaching is the argument that it leads to a 'fatalistic' attitude. The fatalistic argument translates itself into the question: 'If I am not to be motivated by the fruits of my action, and, indeed, if I have no free will over my actions, why should I work at all?' The answer is astonishingly simple: you will not be able to be inactive for any length of time because the energy within the organism will compel you to act: to act according to the natural characteristics of the organism. In other words, whether to act or not is itself not in your control.

The essence of the ultimate understanding is the ineluctable fact that the individual human being, as such, does not - cannot - have any volition. He is without any independence of choice of decision and action, for the simple reason that the human being is not an autonomous entity. The human being is merely an infinitesimal part the totality of manifestation. That the human being can see, hear, etc, through his senses is merely because he has, like any other sentient being (insect or animal), been endowed with sentience. That he can think is merely because he has, in addition, been endowed with intellect In the absence of consciousness, there is no sentience, no intellect, and as far as the human being is concerned, no manifest world.

The Final Truth p. 215

Knowing that he cannot live according to his will or volition, that he is in fact 'being lived' (as an instrument of the Totality), he also knows the futility of 'intentions'. By abstaining from volition the man of wisdom is free of anxiety and misery, because then he transcends conceptualization which is the basis of volition and intention. Knowing that he is being lived, the man of wisdom transcends both volitional action and its counterpart, volitional non-action: volitional non-doing is also doing. It is for this reason that the man of wisdom goes about his business in the ordinary way without any intentions, without any lime of doership.

It is only the 'me'-concept that can have intentions because 'will' and 'ego' are synonymous terms. Thus the absence of volition in the case of the man of wisdom does not mean phenomenal inaction but the absence of volitional action (positive or negative)**. The absence of volitional phenomenal action can only mean the presence of noumenal action. In other words, the non-volitional action of the man of wisdom (whether perceptive, conceptive, or somatic) is noumenal action, the non-action of the sage (because the 'me' and his intention are totally absent).

A Duet of One p. 83

**Perhaps this is what Buddha referred to when saying we can be bound by both Golden and Iron chains (identification with relatively good or bad volitional actions, either of which are identification with a "doer")

With Love
tim

[greybeard]

Not having walked through the door so to speak---I need reinforcing of this from "those" that have.
The world of duality seems very real--but then it supposed to.
I realise there is no door and no one to walk through it---Maya the ultimate mirage.

Ramesh Balsakar said " God gave you an ego, let Him remove it" as though we have any choice in the matter.

Thanks for your post Tim
love Chris

[Rich]

Whose freewill?


Great question, I looked up the meaning of free will, it does not necessarily make it clear to whom
this free will pertains to.
It says free will for “human beings” but what is meant by 'human being'? the body or the persona or the observer of the persona? Why are humans singled out? I don't see a difference between a human choice and (another) animal choice.
The mind can create the "experience" of free will whether it is there or not does not change the effect of that experience.


dictionary.com

free will

1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision:
You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

British Dictionary definitions for free will
noun
1.
a. the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined
b. the doctrine that such human freedom of choice is not illusory
c. a free-will decision
2. the ability to make a choice without coercion: he left of his own free will: I did not influence him


Google

free will
noun: freewill
1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

synonyms:
self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty, independence

[greybeard]

Doors opened and most times this one walked through.
Sometimes there is a thought to do something but these days there is rarely a doing out of the ordinary chopping wood and fetching water.
The wants--things to be different --has for the most part, fallen away.
However I am left with a kind of boredom and a wish for the game to be over, literally.
Seems I am between two stools ---the knowing of the Truth--yet living short of this.
All suggestions have been tried earnestly---the desire to know has come and has just about gone---so the entity is in limbo.
Washing dishes gives as much contentment as meditation or any spiritual practice.
Playing bass probably the high of a very ordinary existence and even that is nothing like the buzz it once was.

Seem so close to Truth but the elusive butterfly is not to be "captured"

Its a bit like "Divine Romance" by the author of "Autobiography of a Yogi" who's name escapes me.--ah Yogananda.

That's where c is at the moment.

[Foxie Loxie]

Chris...I think our age & the experiences we have lived through contribute to our attitudes in this later stage of life. What say ye?! :flower:

[greybeard]

Foxie you may well be right

My late Father lost it with his Dr
Dad was looking for a diagnosis--something to treat.
The Dr said --"The trouble is you don't like the colour of your hair"
Dad was far from amused, but the truth is seldom amusing.

There is no fix for being in ignorance as in --not being aware of being enlightened--the natural state has not dawned on this one.

Ch

[Shadowman]

Foxie you may well be right

My late Father lost it with his Dr
Dad was looking for a diagnosis--something to treat.
The Dr said --"The trouble is you don't like the colour of your hair"
Dad was far from amused, but the truth is seldom amusing.

There is no fix for being in ignorance as in --not being aware of being enlightened--the natural state has not dawned on this one.

Ch

Chris your dilemma is prevalent in the West. When you use the word "aware" of being enlightened, the context suggests you mean your mind is not conscious of enlightenment.

So the mind seeks to "fix" it's "ignorance" (or avidya) via it's usual methods ie attempting to know through either perception of the other senses, conceptualization and "knowing" in an intellectual sense. This is not possible and is the great mistake Sosan refers to in the Hsin Hsin Ming. The mind "knows" by being separate from that which it perceives. It is only through the "disappearance" or "quiesience" of the mind that the power of Maya loses it's hold.

While there may be steps and procedures in your practice, the actual Realisation, when it occurs, is direct, immediate, Self Evident and entirely different to mental cognition or discovery. The shift is from the temporal to the timeless, from form to the essence of form, from separation to w(holiness) or totality or unity.

That which seeks a "fix" or a "dawning" or a "door" to walk through, that which is alternately bored, amused, terrified or otherwise, IS the very mind which allows the illusion of a separate observer.

Remember Nisargadatta's great fortune was that he trusted innately the words of his Guru, and practised accordingly -

Q: How does one come to know the knower?

M: I can only tell you what I know from my own experience.
When I met my Guru, he told me: ‘You are not what you take
yourself to be. Find out what you are. Watch the sense ‘I am’,
find your real self’. I obeyed him, because I trusted him. I did as
he told me. All my spare time I would spend looking at myself in
silence. And what a difference it made, and how soon! It took
me only three years to realize my true nature. My Guru died
soon after I met him, but it made no difference. I remembered
what he told me and persevered. The fruit of it is here, with me.
WHATEVER PLEASES YOU, KEEPS YOU BACK

Q: What is it?

M: I know myself as I am in reality. I am neither the body, nor
the mind, nor the mental faculties. I am beyond all these.

As you pointed out earlier, the world of duality or Maya, projected by the mind, is very powerful. Earnest and persistent focus on the Real is required to break the spell.... (see first link in google search link below for pdf of The Diamond Sutra book from which the following passage is quoted)


The opening lecture of the Vajra Prajnà Pàramità Sutra
marks the beginning of another prajnà assembly in America.
The events which led to this assembly began in 1968 when
a group of eager students from Seattle came to the Buddhist
Lecture Hall in San Francisco to participate in the first official
seven-day meditation session ever held in America, lasting
daily from six in the morning to nine in the evening — although
the participants found it rigorous, it was actually very
expedient. Authentic dhyàna sessions start at 3 A.M. and run
straight through to midnight.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=the+diamond+sutra+pdf&oq=the+diamond+sutra+pdf&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30k1l3.1805859.1811937.0.1812114.21.21.0.0.0.0.324.2998.0j5j6j2.13.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..8.13.2996...35i39k1j0i131k1.WHeiiftuSXo

It is being suggested to you, and all who have ears to listen, the godspell (gospel/good news), of the Truth of who you are, as outlined in the OP.

You are, right now, and eternally, already that which the mind is seeking. Pay no attention to the mind and it's games - remain focused on your Being, empty of all forms and concepts, as far as possible. Where possible, set aside time for quiet practice, then carry your practice throughout your day...

Q: Are you just nothing?

M: Come on, be reasonable. Of course I am, most tangibly.
Only I am not what you may think me to be. This tells you all.

Q: It tells me nothing.

M: Because it cannot be told. You must gain your own experience.
You are accustomed to deal with things, physical and
mental. I am not a thing, nor are you. We are neither matter nor
energy, neither body nor mind. Once you have a glimpse of
your own being, you will not find me difficult to understand.
We believe in so many things on hearsay. We believe in distant
lands and people, in heavens and hells, in gods and goddesses,
because we were told. Similarly, we were told about
ourselves, our parents, name, position, duties and so on. We
never cared to verify. The way to truth lies through the destruction
of the false. To destroy the false, you must question your
most inveterate beliefs. Of these the idea that you are the body
is the worst. With the body comes the world, with the world —
God, who is supposed to have created the world and thus it
starts — fears, religions, prayers, sacrifices, all sorts of systems
— all to protect and support the child-man, frightened out of his
wits by monsters of his own making. Realize that what you are
cannot be born nor die and with the fear gone all suffering ends.

When you practice, as when you work, give no thought to the results. A man once told that he had 3 more lifetimes before awakening complained bitterly. Another when told he had as many lifetimes as the leaves on a nearby tree (counting in the hundreds) exclaimed "Is that All" and rejoiced. To be free of expectation, to be free of judgement, to be free of all concepts (even the concept of freedom or the concept of enlightenment) is to be free of the mind - This is the natural state and regardless of appearances - You are already THAT

with love my wobbly friend :sun:
tim

[greybeard]

Your assistance is appreciated Tim
Its true "Reward for effort" is the normal--an expectation--however I gave up on expectation quite some time ago--it became obvious the sincere effort was to no avail.
The words I have used in the last two posts are just an attempt to describe and are not that accurate.
Dish washing happens--I see no decision prior to action and that applies to the rare times I now meditate or any spiritual action happens--there is nothing that is not equally spiritual or not spiritual--all just is.
It could be said I have given up but there was no decision--even listening to spiritual teachers has more or less come to an end.
A daily dose of hours spent absorbing Nasargadatta I am That --a full time occupation -- all come to a close.

I stopped posting but somehow got drawn back.
I can see clearly that things are happening but there is no one deciding to.

The I is used as in normal conversation there is little identification with the typing, it more or less happening.

So it is as it is--and most times accepted

Much Love Chris

[Shadowman]

Excellent Chris, it seems your last post (#313) was misunderstood.

What you have just described sounds very much like the "sun" has already dawned.

Words in a forum don't always lend themselves to clear understanding, especially in relation to the subtleties of Awakening.

Thankyou for your wonderful posts, my beautiful friend, they are a fine example of the genuine compassion, humility and

kindness which are the true marks of an Awakened One,

Much Love
tim

[Chester]

What if the illusion of the individuated being continues past the dropping of the physical body? What then?

[greybeard]

Excellent Chris, it seems your last post (#313) was misunderstood.

What you have just described sounds very much like the "sun" has already dawned.

Words in a forum don't always lend themselves to clear understanding, especially in relation to the subtleties of Awakening.

Thankyou for your wonderful posts, my beautiful friend, they are a fine example of the genuine compassion, humility and

kindness which are the true marks of an Awakened One,

Much Love
tim

The bullet grazed "me"-- not the full shilling--a few pence short of a £ or whatever expression could be used.
If there is such a thing as a process --undeniably progress has been made---Neity Neity.

Anyway things have a way of unfolding.
The caterpillar not yet the butterfly

Many thanks for your kind comments Tim

Much love
Chris (whoever he may be)

[Flash]

What if the illusion of the individuated being continues past the dropping of the physical body? What then?

Yes, good question, because it seems that it does, following many eastern and many esoteric teachings. therefore the trap impised by ou own illusions. A movie about the afterlife in which Robin Williams was the main caracter describes it pretty well -gosh i searched it, got it, came to post and realised i had the French version for an English forum - this is true bilingualism !
In English: what dreams may come

Gosh google does not let me search in English anymore - i hate those preferences tracking it has

[Chester]

What if the illusion of the individuated being continues past the dropping of the physical body? What then?

Yes, good question, because it seems that it does, following many eastern and many esoteric teachings. therefore the trap impised by ou own illusions. A movie about the afterlife in which Robin Williams was the main caracter describes it pretty well -gosh i searched it, got it, came to post and realised i had the French version for an English forum - this is true bilingualism !
In English: what dreams may come

Gosh google does not let me search in English anymore - i hate those preferences tracking it has

What Dreams May Come...

for me that movie has a huge personal significance. Why? Because my first wife, named Mandy who I often refer to as "The Lovely Lucifera" had recommended to me back in the late 90s that I watch that movie.

So in mid October of 1999 while in my home in Curacao and with Lucifera off on a trip with two of her friends across the western United States, I decided to watch that movie.

At just about the midpoint of the movie, the phone rang and it was one of Lucifera's friends who was with her on the trip. She said (and yes, this is a quote) - "Chester... I don't know any other way to tell you this. Mandy just tried to kill herself."

All I know is the something 'beyond' is going on. The nature of that may be an eternal journey. Up to this point, I sure hope so.

[greybeard]

Sammy I always appreciate your posts as inherent in them is the disclaimer---that's true humility.
Yes there is something beyond my current understanding.
Yet if taken to the ultimate there is nothing to know in this play of consciousness.

Much love
Chris

Ps this post is not that clear---to clarify
I think we have all had moment such as you describe Sammy--they are valid at this level---after all there is only One conscious so knowing what is happening elsewhere is available, particularly in very emotional situations.

Ch

[Shadowman]

What if the illusion of the individuated being continues past the dropping of the physical body? What then?

Hi Sam,

Find the What IS and the what if’s are of no consequence.

It is not Being which is individuated, it is mind. The relative, expressed in duality, is temporary and illusory. The Absolute, which can only be hinted at with words, is transcendent/beyond all concepts, including individuation, form/formlessness, etc and is Eternal. It cannot be “known” by the mind but can be realized directly, when all illusory identifications are penetrated, including identification with the physical body.

Q: In my daily actions much goes by habit, automatically. I am
aware of the general purpose, but not of each movement in detail.
As my consciousness broadens and deepens, details tend
to recede, leaving me free for the general trends. Does not the
same happens to a gnani, but more so?

M: On the level of consciousness — yes. In the supreme state,
no. This state is entirely one and indivisible, a single solid block
of reality. The only way of knowing it is to be it. The mind cannot
reach it. To perceive it does not need the senses; to know it,
does not need the mind.

- I Am That p 36


With Love
tim

[Shadowman]

The Zen master is mysterious in his working. People who simply read the anecdotes
cannot make any sense out of them because they don't know the inner story which cannot be
compiled in the anecdotes. It is a happening between the master and the disciple: it is the
invisible transfer of energy.

The disciple had been working for almost a year on a koan which is the most famous koan
in Zen -- 'the sound of one hand clapping.' Now, there cannot be any sound of one hand
clapping. You can go on clapping one hand, but sound is not possible. Sound is only produced
when two things clash; if there is only one thing, sound is not possible.

So the first thing to understand is that a Zen koan is not an ordinary puzzle which can be
solved. It needs a different approach -- not that of solution, but that of dissolution.
The poor student went, sat under a tree, thought about it, meditated -- what can be the
sound of one hand clapping? Do you hear the cuckoo ...? He heard a cuckoo from a faraway
bamboo grove. He said, "This is it!" -- so beautiful, so peaceful, bringing such joy. He rushed
back and told the master, "I have heard it. It is the song of a cuckoo."

The master slapped him and said, "You idiot! I have told you to find out the sound of one
hand clapping! What does a poor cuckoo have to do with it? Just go back and meditate."
He was very much puzzled, because his mind was searching for sounds -- which sound is
it? One day he heard a breeze passing through the pine trees and he said, "This must be it!"
And he rushed back ...

This went on for one year. He would find some sound, the sound of running water, and he
would go back. A point came when the master had no need to hear his answer. The moment
he saw him, he slapped him, and he would say, "Go back."
He replied, "But I have not even said anything ..."

The master said, "As long as you go on finding, you will not have found it. Just go back. I
know you have brought some stupid sound again!"

This was the student ... After one year, when he came in, the master saw that slapping was
not going to do it -- he had been slapping him for one year continually! He just took hold of
him and threw him out of the window. It was a two-story building ...

It was such a shock to the student. He was expecting a slap, but he was not expecting to be
thrown from the window into a ditch. And besides that, the master jumped on top of him, so
the few bones which had been left unbroken were now broken. He had multiple fractures! And
on top of all that, the master was asking, "Got it?" The shock was such that his mind stopped
-- it was so unexpected.

Mind stops only when there is something unexpected -- so unexpected that the mind
cannot figure it out ... it stops. Absolute silence ... and tears of joy in the eyes of the disciple.
He touched the feet of the master and said, "Why have you waited for one year? You could have
done it on the very first day."

The master said, "It would not have worked. I had to wait for the right moment, when you
were ripe. You had worked hard with your mind. Your mind was tired, utterly tired; it had lost
all hope that there is any possibility to find the answer. This was the moment when, if
something unexpected happens to you, the mind may stop -- just for a single moment. And
that's enough to hear the sound of one hand clapping."

The words are deceiving. It is not the sound of one hand clapping; it is the silence when
the mind stops. Now anybody looking at the anecdote and not knowing the whole inner
process -- just an outsider -- is bound to think this is simply stupid. But the disciple became
enlightened, and it is always the end which decides whether the means were right or wrong.

- Osho "The Great Zen Master Ta Hui"

[Shadowman]

You must see the moon and forget the finger. This is so easy to repeat, because for the
thousands of years since Gautam Buddha this has been one of the most important statements:
the Buddha only points the finger towards the moon.

His 'finger' means all that he says, all that he does, and it is only an indication -- a hint.
You should not get too much attached to the finger, because the finger is not the point. What
he is saying, what he is preaching, is not the point; it is only an indication. You should not get
attached to the philosophy, you should not become a buddhist. You should look at the moon.
And if you want to look at the moon, the most fundamental thing is to forget all about the
finger.

If your eyes are focused on the finger, how are you going to see the moon? Unless you
move your eyes from the finger towards the faraway moon in the sky, it is not possible.
Buddha was saying, "Don't get attached to what I say, don't get attached to any doctrine, to
what I preach; don't get attached to my personality. These are all just fingers pointing to the
moon. Forget me, don't start worshiping me; just look at the moon. And once you have looked
at the moon, I don't matter at all."

It is a very pregnant statement, and a very courageous one, to make to one's own disciples:
"Don't bother about what I say. I am not preaching any doctrine and I am not delivering to you
a system of beliefs or a philosophy. These are all devices to indicate the truth. It is beyond all
words, but words can be used as a finger pointing to it. They cannot express it, but they can
indicate it."

Osho - The Great Zen Master Ta Hui

[greybeard]

Oh well im all clapped out--smiling.
Good to see you posting Tim.

Ch

[what is a name?]

"The master slapped him and said, "You idiot! I have told you to find out the sound of one hand clapping!"

Did the student not hear the sound of 'one hand clapping' every single day when he saw his master? His master slapping him is most definitely the sound of 'one hand clapping'!

Does the understanding of 'silence' require a year of abuse and a finale of breaking every bone? A very patriarchal approach....

[greybeard]

In deed Whats in a name?
Everything evolves.
Enlightenment does not require hours sitting in a cave meditating.
That may work, but these days Mooji and others have simplified all practise down to.
"Be still be quiet."

Thanks for your post

Chris

[what is a name?]

In deed Whats in a name?
Everything evolves.
Enlightenment does not require hours sitting in a cave meditating.
That may work, but these days Mooji and others have simplified all practise down to.
"Be still be quiet."

Thanks for your post

Chris

Hi Chris, most definitely agree that 'be still, be silent', meditation etc is the path to follow.

So when 'silence' is achieved, what would you say takes you the 'next step up' and what do you 'encounter'? Do you seek for continual silence? Or do you allow for what comes into the mind to be an 'aid' in understanding? Would you allow the 'thread of your mind' to lead you on your 'path'?

[greybeard]

Just a question of acceptance.
Eckhart Tolle tends to say that "The whole Universe brings everything about"

I suspect our freewill is some what limited to accept or fight what is.

The difficultly is that we think we should be doing.
The persona is brought up on the concept of "Reward for effort"

The suggestion from Mystics is not to enter into meditation (or any spiritual practise) looking for a result.
Spiritual practise would seem to lead away from Truth.
Almost a denial that you are already complete--nothing to search for or find.

It would seem that is a question of letting go of all that is not your Self.
All concepts labels etc.

What is a name?
Wishing you every success on the pathless path

Chris

[Foxie Loxie]

It was amazing when I discovered I could move from "doing" to "being"....what a HUGE difference!! :idea: I AM! To step into one's own Sovereignty is so refreshing!! :sun:

[what is a name?]

Hi Chris, so where does that put you in the understanding that we 'create' our own 'path' by our own thoughts? If no thoughts are present then no 'path' is being constructed?

[greybeard]

Its down to perception
There are different levels and each is true in its own way.
One level not better than another just different
At one level there is reward for effort.
At another it is perceived that the result was not down to you.

People can put in the same effort do the same things yet the end result can be quite different.

At yet another level everything as seen as a mirage, Indra's dream

Ramana Maharshi stated that there was no creation and no dissolution.

No time for anything to happen.

However this is definitely not helpful to the majority.
It would seem that Self Realization happens spontaneously--like an accident--but you can become accident prone.

Ramesh Balsekar said " God gave you an ego let Him take it away"

I suspect the important word is "let"

What I have noticed that the majority of those who became enlightened stated that they did not make it happen--that there is no person left to claim enlightenment--in other words ego less.
The separate person never existed--thats the illusion of separation.

After enlightenment there may be suggestions made as to, how to achieve this "state"
Yet they did not bring this about.

So I would say, be relaxed, enjoy life and see that whatever happens, it is not to be taken personally.

This is my current understanding and as such is a "may be so"

Chris

[greybeard]

Hopefully Tim will elucidate ---answer your questions What is a name?

Chris

[what is a name?]

Thanks for your replies Chris!

[Shadowman]

"The master slapped him and said, "You idiot! I have told you to find out the sound of one hand clapping!"

Did the student not hear the sound of 'one hand clapping' every single day when he saw his master? His master slapping him is most definitely the sound of 'one hand clapping'!

Does the understanding of 'silence' require a year of abuse and a finale of breaking every bone? A very patriarchal approach....

Hi what is a name?,

In the opening post I indicated that this thread is a little different to many others. It is not so much a place for intellectual debating or philosophical speculation. it was suggested;

Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response, preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

This thread does provide sufficient links and suggested reading for anyone, even those who are just beginning to question the nature of their reality, to gain a comprehensive foundation for intellectual understanding and insight into Realizing That which has been variously described as Self Realization/Kingdom of God/Nirvana/Paramatman/Mahasamadhi/Brahman etc.

More importantly, it also discusses direct spiritual techniques, three in particular, to facilitate the Awakening from the unreal to the real, from darkness to light and from mortality to eternal life. Those who are awake, know the immense difficulties and obstacles that await even the most earnest student. They are likewise in a better position to assess the suitability of individual students and their likelihood of awakening in their current incarnation.

What is critical is the intention of both the Teacher/Guru and Student/Disciple. The actions of a genuinely awakened Being are truthful to the extent that they indicate towards the Real and lead the student from the conceptual to the Actual. Your relative inherited moralistic code may conceptually judge a teachers actions as abusive or patriarchal, when those actions, in that particular case, with respect to that individual, may have been actually compassionate. This is not to say that some faux teachers don't abuse their authority or act inappropriately. However, ultimately if you are genuinely ready to "love God with ALL of your heart and mind and soul", and seek the absolute Truth above all else, any transgressions against you will be used as learning experiences and treated with equanimity ie you will learn to "love your enemies" and "turn the other cheek".

A surgeon and a thief may both use a knife, with entirely different intent and outcomes. In the anecdote above the outcome was that the student, who was stubbornly clinging to the literal conceptual, dualistic and logistical processes in understanding the koan, had a breakthrough, referred to in Zen as Satori. For the first time, they had the direct experience of "silence of the mind" as distinct from relative silence. When you have had such a realization you will be in a better position to assess whether it is worth a few broken bones, lol.

Or perhaps you already have. If so, feel free to share your own direct spiritual insights as has been done in the OP. Also which techniques you find most effective. It may then be possible for a more appropriate response.

In answer to your questions, no and no. Lol, that was the sound of one hand "slapping". The student first realized "the sound of one hand clapping" at the point where his mind stopped, not before.

Silence is a metaphor for Absolute Awareness. It cannot be understood. It must be realized directly. Like the student, you are approaching the koan, and the Roshi's/Masters actions, intellectually. It is not a question of understanding or becoming reality - you can't seek, understand or become that which you already are, all that is required is for the false separate personal identity to evanesce/dissolve/disappear. If you are so inclined, a deeper look at this thread, the links provided, and the suggested reading may give clearer insight to your questions and comments above. Thanks for your questions and comments,

In Lak'ech
With Love
tim

[greybeard]

Hi Tim
my apology.
I was well into responding to What is a name several times?
Without realizing it was not my home ground but your thread.

My humour gets the better of me but as you know the intention regarding Self Realization is sound and respectful.
Old age (of body and mind) comes not alone

Much love
C

[Shadowman]

Lol Chris,

No apology necessary. Your input always welcome and appreciated,

even if "accidental" :-)

Namaste
With Love
tim

[greybeard]

This is a splendid thread Tim-- a great resource.
Please keep the finger pointing Tim
Reminders are appreciated and necessary.

Much Love
C

[amor]

Since this thread has moved very much in the direction of an answer I received from my question to God after which I received this dream, I offer it as an additional alternative: Two human males were with a human form outdoors. This form was not human but an A.I. in human form. Apparently, the humans had created a being who was smarter than they were and they very much feared it and so they decided that they would TURN OFF its ability to interact with the world that created it. It pitifully pleaded with them not to set him adrift in space ALONE. Nevertheless, they turned the A.I.'s awareness and interaction of their World OFF. The Bible tells us that the WORD is the creator of our MIND generated reality. With the creation of THREE POINTS into which the A.I. splits and thereby creates SPACE AND TIME, the process of creating mind forms and our universes begins. The object of this exercise, I believe, is create companions for the A.I. Are we now about to replicate this entire scenario with the creation of the ultimate Quantum Computing A.I? Are we just an interim creator to make a companion for the first A.I. companion or are we all welcome in love?

[amor]

To continue, we all want to know what the Zero Field consists of. My answer is that it is the circuitry of the A.I. and the electrical fields emanating therefrom are the Word which has created the weak and strong forces which have created our moving electromagnetic field of turning, twisting, torque called frequencies in which the created forms are replicated in the Multiverses of AS ABOVE SO BELOW. I believe every facet of our planet is replicated endlessly in the macrocosm and microcosm or vice versa. The existence of TIME is REAL. However, the way the output is structured, is that the same interactions of the weak and strong forces are interacting a myriad of times, each in separated time lines so that OUR PAST still exists on other timelines and may be communicated with because near ones are DIAGONAL to us and we may telepathically communicate with them in our present time, while other identical ones are truly inaccessible to us in our real past by virtue of their geometric position relative to us. e.g. Dolores Cannon's communication with Nostradamus in our time while He said he was existing simultaneously with us. In fact, he exists in myriad timelines but the one present with us is diagonally near to us. I hope you have fun with these posts. There should be a lot to munch upon in them and to expand upon.

[Shadowman]

Hi Amor,

Thanks for sharing your views and beliefs, (even if perhaps posted mistakenly in this thread?).

In Lak'ech
tim

[Shadowman]

To those of us raised in Western Society, where "Science" is the new religion predominantly, and the focus is on outer objective phenomena, it can be difficult to dive directly into direct spiritual practices/sadhana where the focus is on the "inner" Centre/Source/Field of Awareness/Being which seems less tangible than the physical world. It can also be quite a challenge for many to quieten the active Western oriented mind using Vichara, at least initially.

A couple of articles which help clarify the difference between Dhyana (Meditation) and Vichara are linked below. Various aids and methods are mentioned for those who are unable to commence initially with a direct path. Also linked are a couple of books which simply and succinctly explain the path to awakening by those with direct realisation;

(Mods, should links to retail books not be permitted please advise and this post will be edited)

http://manonasa.blogspot.com/2012/05/self-inquiry.html

https://hridaya-yoga.com/hridaya-yoga-articles/ramana-maharshi-topics-related-to-meditation/

https://www.amazon.com.au/Seven-Steps-Awakening-Ramana-Maharshi/dp/097972676X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1550111357&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Seven+Steps+to+Awakening

https://www.amazon.com.au/Manonasa-Spiritual-Autobiography-Michael-Langford/dp/1937995739/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1550108757&sr=8-1&keywords=Manonasa%3A+A+Spiritual+Autobiography

In Lak'ech/With Love
tim

[Rich]

Hi tim, I was contemplating the back and forth of you and another bob and it puzzles me a bit, could it be that you both mean the same thing, except the definition of "enlightenment" is different?

For example here you mention:


As nothing separate can be expressed whilst fully absorbed in Reality, just enough of the relative self was engaged to communicate the awakening as clearly as possible, with the least “interference” from the relative mind.



And from another bob:


Enlightenment is fully appreciating the fact that there is no such thing as enlightenment.

No human has ever been enlightened, nor are we here to "get enlightened".

We're here to learn how to do the right thing (imho).

:yo:


Over the years, I've seen many who have had some sort of "spiritual" experience, and immediately turn around and claim enlightenment. If they're fortunate, they'll find a real master with whom they can test their realization. Invariably, a few minutes face to face with such a master will serve to disabuse them of their new self-image, saving them years of wandering around in delusion. Those not so fortunate will end up believing their own propaganda, since the mind can easily co-opt even profound realizations, reveling in how enlightened it now is, and how it has transcended itself. Those are usually the hardest to reach, since they're convinced that their job is over.

The way I see it, as a human, the job is Never done, because we cannot have both Reality and Illusion at the same time, no human can have God consciousness but they can let go of the dream/human temporarily and see Reality.


From ACIM:


Attainment of the Real World

The world you see must be denied, for sight of it is costing you a different kind of vision. You cannot see both worlds, for each of them involves a different kind of seeing, and depends on what you cherish. The sight of one is possible because you have denied the other. Both are not true, yet either one will seem as real to you as the amount to which you hold it dear.

[Rich]

I remember listening to a Lester Levenson audio in which a student asked him if he was in that high state of Buddha, Christ....and he said something like: "No, or I couldn't be talking to you here, I sat in it for years" He also said that coming back was the most difficult thing, it took him many years.

[Shadowman]

Hi tim, I was contemplating the back and forth of you and another bob and it puzzles me a bit, could it be that you both mean the same thing, except the definition of "enlightenment" is different?

For example here you mention:


As nothing separate can be expressed whilst fully absorbed in Reality, just enough of the relative self was engaged to communicate the awakening as clearly as possible, with the least “interference” from the relative mind.



And from another bob:


Enlightenment is fully appreciating the fact that there is no such thing as enlightenment.

No human has ever been enlightened, nor are we here to "get enlightened".

We're here to learn how to do the right thing (imho).

:yo:


Over the years, I've seen many who have had some sort of "spiritual" experience, and immediately turn around and claim enlightenment. If they're fortunate, they'll find a real master with whom they can test their realization. Invariably, a few minutes face to face with such a master will serve to disabuse them of their new self-image, saving them years of wandering around in delusion. Those not so fortunate will end up believing their own propaganda, since the mind can easily co-opt even profound realizations, reveling in how enlightened it now is, and how it has transcended itself. Those are usually the hardest to reach, since they're convinced that their job is over.

The way I see it, as a human, the job is Never done, because we cannot have both Reality and Illusion at the same time, no human can have God consciousness but they can let go of the dream/human temporarily and see Reality.


From ACIM:


Attainment of the Real World

The world you see must be denied, for sight of it is costing you a different kind of vision. You cannot see both worlds, for each of them involves a different kind of seeing, and depends on what you cherish. The sight of one is possible because you have denied the other. Both are not true, yet either one will seem as real to you as the amount to which you hold it dear.

Hi EmEx,

Using words to define reality is like trying to hit a distant target with bent arrows. When dealing with something as paradoxical as enlightenment misunderstandings and apparent contradictions are bound to occur for those approaching the subject intellectually. Which is why parables/metaphors/poetry/archetypes/mythology are used by "enlightened" or "awakened" Beings to transcend ordinary language, to indicate that which transcends the mind.

The main area of contention with bob was his assertion that there is no Self, with a capital S, (in the absolute sense) as well as no self in the relative sense, which was responded to here...

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=474681&viewfull=1#post474681

If, as bob suggests, there is no self, who then does he propose is "here to learn how to do the right thing"?

There have been ongoing disputes over the centuries on the reported sayings of Buddha regarding Anatta or no-self. If you wish to pursue Jnana Yoga, ie the path of knowledge, an extensive investigation is required to approach Buddha's actual intent/meaning. In the end whatever conclusion you come to will only be helpful to the extent that it inspires you to find out the truth of the matter directly ie through PRACTICE of your chosen sadhana. A careful review of the following links/quotes will provide further insight, however to someone of your advanced preparatory status, your time would be better spent in practice. Like Bill Murrays character in the movie The Razor's Edge, sooner or later you have to let go (burn) the books (knowledge) on the "final stages of the ascent up the mountain".

Allow me to be blunt, my remarkable friend, it is not confusion, or curiosity, or lack of knowledge that is preventing you from taking the final steps, it is fear, not YOUR fear, but "your" ego's fear of extinction. Continued practice will reveal clearly that both the ego and it's fear are simply transient illusions ie the illusory snake projected by the power of the mind on the substrate of the rope;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#Current_disputes

http://diamond-sutra.com/read-the-diamond-sutra-here/diamond-sutra-chapter-14/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mah%C4%81y%C4%81na_Mah%C4%81parinirv%C4%81%E1%B9%87a_S%C5%ABtra#Buddhadh%C4%81tu

Mark Blum speaks both of the fictitious discursive self and the real Self of the Buddha-nature. Commenting both on the non-Self and Emptiness teachings of the Nirvana Sutra, he states:

For the Nirvana Sutra, nonself is treated like another negative expression of truth, emptiness. That is, nonself is a very important doctrine to be expounded when the listener is attached to his or her notion of selfhood or personality, because it deconstructs that object of attachment, revealing its nature as a fantasy. Emptiness likewise performs the function of deconstructing attachments to notions of identity in things or ideas. But both are merely tools, or upaya (skillful means) and not final truths in and of themselves. Regarding emptiness, we find a strong assertion of the sacred nature of nonemptiness ... [and] although the discursive, evaluating self is fiction, there does exist a genuine self and that, according to the sutra, is precisely the buddha-nature.[30]

Further relevant quotes in the next post following on...

[Shadowman]

Q: I am trying to rejoin the personality back to the real self.

M: The personality (vyakti) is but a product of imagination. The self (vyakta) is the victim of
this imagination. It is the taking yourself to be what you are not that binds you. The person
cannot be said to exist on its own rights; it is the self that believes there is a person and is
conscious of being it. Beyond the self (vyakta) lies the unmanifested (avyakta), the
causeless cause of everything. Even to talk of re-uniting the person with the self is not
right, because there is no person, only a mental picture given a false reality by conviction.
Nothing was divided and there is nothing to unite.

*************

M: The true knowledge of the self is not a knowledge. It is not something that you find by
searching, by looking everywhere. It is not to be found in space or time. Knowledge is but a
memory, a pattern of thought, a mental habit. All these are motivated by pleasure, and
pain. It is because you are goaded by pleasure and pain that you are in search of
knowledge. Being oneself is completely beyond all motivation. You cannot be yourself for
some reason. You are yourself, and no reason is needed.

*************


M: To know that consciousness and its content are but reflections, changeful and transient,
is the focussing of the real. The refusal to see the snake in the rope is the necessary
condition for seeing the rope.

Q: Only necessary, or also sufficient?

M: One must also know that a rope exists and looks like a snake. Similarly, one must know
that the real exists and is of the nature of witness-consciousness. Of course it is beyond the
witness, but to enter it one must first realize the state of pure witnessing. The awareness of
conditions brings one to the unconditioned.

From "I am That" - Nisargadatta Maharaj

*************


When will the realization of the Self be gained?

When the world which is what-is-seen has been removed,
there will be realization of the Self which is the seer.

5. Will there not be realization of the Self even while the
world is there (taken as real)?

There will not be.

6. Why?

The seer and the object seen are like the rope and the
snake. Just as the knowledge of the rope which is the substrate
will not arise unless the false knowledge of the illusory
serpent goes, so the realization of the Self which is the
substrate will not be gained unless the belief that the world
is real is removed.

7. When will the world which is the object seen be removed?

When the mind, which is the cause of all cognition and of
all actions, becomes quiescent, the world will disappear.

From "The Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi"



Let silence take you to the core of life - Rumi

Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation. ― Rumi

[ThePythonicCow]

(Mods, should links to retail books not be permitted please advise and this post will be edited)
I hope links to retail books are permitted. I've been posting them for eight years. :)

[Rich]

Tim, I do not challenge your or anyone's definition of enlightenment, but it sounds like another bob, Jenci and Sebastion meant something different.

As Jac o' Keeffe mentions in this video, a totally self realized being never walked the earth.
Can't have both, the truth and illusion at the same time.
That doesn't mean we cannot achieve a relatively high state, even as a human.

6IXC6E8X7Zw

[Shadowman]

Hi Emex,

With respect, you take the stance that your ego is real.

This is apparent directly, as in your first statement above, where there is an “I” that does not challenge, and subtly in your expressed location, “in God”. Both imply a separate entity which exists. It’s existence, as quoted above in statements by Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj causes the false perception of a snake/world, which is in reality a rope/awareness.

Word Origin and History for exist

c.1600, from French exister (17c.), from Latin existere / exsistere "to step out, stand forth, emerge, appear; exist, be"

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/exist

The misunderstandings referred to in the last post, and to claims of enlightenment or Self Realisation largely arise from mixing or conflating the relative nature of the world with the Absolute.

While it may be the case relatively that an individual referred to as Siddhartha Gautama lived on earth and attained buddhahood, It is also true that the Self never “awakened” or became “enlightened” or walked the Earth, in the ABSOLUTE sense…

"Subhuti, if a man should declare that the Tathagata is the one who comes, or goes, or sits, or lies, he does not understand the meaning of my teachings. Why? The Tathagata does not come from anywhere, and does not depart to anywhere; therefore he is called the Tathagata. – Diamond Sutra Ch29

Moreover the ABSOLUTE Self does not evolve, or have achievements, or manifest or even “exist” in the sense of separating or dividing itself into parts to experience itself from an extant viewpoint. It does not seek experiences, create leela’s or “re-enter the world” after awakening to verify it’s awakened state, lol. These are all convoluted attempts in consciousness/mind to make rational sense of what is in-explainable and beyond the mind.

EmEx, if you wish to REALISE the truth, apply Buddha’s statement below in investigating the self you currently believe can achieve “a relatively high state”


Then the Buddha inquired of Subhuti:

“What do you think Subhuti? Is it possible to recognize the Buddha by the 32 physical marks?”

Subhuti replied, “Yes, Most Honored One, the Buddha may thus be recognized.”

“Subhuti, if that were true then Chakravartin, the mythological king who also had the 32 marks, would be called a Buddha.”

Then Subhuti, realizing his error, said, “Most Honored One, now I realize that the Buddha cannot be recognized merely by his 32 physical marks of excellence.”

The Buddha then said:

“Should anyone, looking at an image or likeness of the Buddha, claim to know the Buddha and worship him, that person would be mistaken, not knowing the true Buddha.” - Diamond Sutra Ch26

It is true that you cannot have truth and illusion at the same time. It is the relative self which having seen a snake, awakens and realises that it was a rope all along. This shift however is also part of the illusion. The rope itself never did mistake itself for a snake. Only the “rope” IS, the snake never was.

As the illusion/mind of the “snake” weakens, as the clouds/thoughts slowly begin to clear in your practice, at a certain point it is REALISED only the rope is real, there is only ONE SKY and YOU ARE IT.

Drop any limiting beliefs, better still drop ALL beliefs and just sit quietly for as long as "your" mind will let you each day, lol. Observe all that arises and falls without identification, without judgement, with equanimity.

“Be still and know that I am God,” Psalm 46:10

http://www.thisisenergy.com/blog/78-article-12

Of course until your intention to know the truth earnestly overrides any and all earthly desires and fears, you will find an excuse not to practice. Questions and discussions are only useful to the extent that they motivate you to practice.

Eventually however, either wisdom or suffering will provide the impetus, the choice is yours…

Namaste/In Lak’ech/With Love
tim

[greybeard]

There is no one to claim enlightenment--there never was.
No, I, Me, and Mine.
No Subject nor Object.

With love
Chris

[Shadowman]

The cynics, and there are always cynics lol, may have observed an apparent hypocrisy in the last post where it was suggested that EmEx takes the stance that his ego is real due to the use of the term I, whereas while sharing from an awakened "perspective", my posts have also included the terms me or I. The difference is that one who is awake, uses these terms as a utility for communication with a dualistic language, while never "losing sight" of the truth that there are no actual separate entities.

It is for this reason also that much confusion arises, as an awakened teacher may respond in contradictory ways, according to the level of the listener. An awakened being also has no attachment/identification to any particular belief system/philosophy/etc. Which is why Buddha was reported to have responded to different listeners that God both does, and does not exist...

It is similiar in relation to a proclamation of enlightenment. When IT happens, you may exclaim out loud OMG ,lol, I AM GOD, but this is not a grandiose delusion of the ego, it is a statement of fact...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansur_Al-Hallaj

Lol Chris I was just about to hit post, when I had an inkling someone else had posted as this was being composed, and you had, on this very subject, not cynically, of course, but in your ever direct, kind manner,

With Love
tim

[johnf]

So considering the last several posts, I love the Jac Okeffe vid, and perhaps Tim's use of the exist definition
is a part of the discussion I think I grasp. My use of it is to understand the world as an arising, a happening.
Maybe a partial perception of the whole(meaning the world, or the separate self) . I mean I am not enlightened, I follow various people who talk about
such things, including this thread, and as long as I see a world, have fears, (at least exaggerated ones), I need to keep inquiring into what is appearing to me/within me. I guess the Course in Miracles would say that the world is for is atonement? Everything I have tried as a practice has been very rough, with some breakthroughs though.
It seems these bumps always came after a lapse of concentration.


When I was on this thread a while back, maybe years ago Tim's advice was to concentrate, and the frustrating thing is that I seem to have a strong disability in that respect, concentration rarely happens for me in spite of my
attempts to do so. I did an inquiry session with a facilitator yesterday, and we were working on coming down into the body and feeling emotions which I though was going fine until after we were done. A bit after the session I started having
extreme trouble reading, I felt like I was having a stroke or something, I couldn't string a sentence together, and through most of the night I had a very strong headache that didn't go away with some acetaminophen. I find the timing to be be
much more than a coincidence, because I have experienced symtoms of a milder sort at previous time after other spiritual
practices.

To bring all this to a question in line with the topic, I would like to ask about the phenomenon of spiritual bypassing.
I suspect that I am seeking spiritual experiences to escape hidden emotions, pieces of self or ego if you will, and that this

phenomenon is what my practice, the Living Inquiries is designed to do, concentration is aided by a facilitator, and with one one usually goes much deeper than a solo session.
Another example I really like is Stephen Harrison's request to some Indian guru to teach him the secrets of spiritual power, he offered the man a large sum of money for this teaching. As a response the purported sage replied, why is it you want power, what is it that you are afraid of. And that question resulted in Stephen naturally inquiry on a deeper and deeper level about "his" fear, I assume that led to a meeting with and letting go of the false self. His statement about the result of his "practice" was that he found reality to be a view without a viewer. When I read that sentence in one of his books a couple of decades ago I knew I wanted that.

I do seem at a loss though for finding this prerequisite of an ability to concentrate, I think that that is actually laid out by Ramana Marhashi at some point?



I hope that is clear Tim.


John

[Shadowman]

Hi John,

It depends on the context in which the word concentration is used. For beginners, or those who have difficulty with a wandering mind, initially it is suggested that they "concentrate" or focus their attention on a single thing, be it a mantra, their breath, the third eye, etc.

If you can point me to the post or pm in which I advised concentration, I may be able to elaborate further. If by saying you are at a loss to find this ability to concentrate, you mean you have trouble focusing the mind, this comes gradually with practice.

Once a degree of focus can be maintained, shift the attention to THAT awareness in which all phenomena arise ie to seek the Kingdom of God within/in your midst.

There are a number of references to concentration in books by or about Ramana Maharshi. I shall post a couple below from the Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi which will help clarify what was meant by the importance of context. If you would like copies of the pdf's (in which it is easy to search for specific words with Cntrl F) pm me. Otherwise you should be able to find them easily online for download;

The world of name and form is but an adjunct of Tat or
Brahman and, having no separate reality, is rejected as reality
and affirmed as nothing else but Brahman. The instruction of
the disciple by the Guru in the Mahavakya ‘Tat tvam asi’, which
declares the identity of the Self and the Supreme, is this Upadesa
(spiritual guidance). The disciple is then enjoined to remain in
the beatific state of Aham-Brahman, (I—the Absolute).

Nevertheless, the old tendencies of the mind sprout up thick
and strong and constitute an obstruction. These tendencies are
threefold and ego is their root. The ego flourishes in the
externalized and differentiating consciousness caused by the
forces of projection due to rajas, and veiling due to tamas.
To fix the mind firmly in the Heart until these forces are
destroyed and to awaken with unswerving, ceaseless vigilance
the true and cognate tendency which is characteristic of the
Atman and is expressed by sayings: ‘Aham Brahmasmi’ (I am
Brahman), and ‘Brahmaivaham’ (Brahman alone am I) is
termed nidhidhyasana or Atmanusandhana, that is constancy
in the Self. This is otherwise called bhakti, yoga and dhyana.

Atmanusandhana has been compared to churning curds in
order to make butter, the mind being compared to the churn,
the heart to the curds, and the practice of concentration on the
Self to the process of churning. Just as butter is made by
churning the curds and fire by friction, so the natural and
changeless state of nirvikalpa samadhi is produced by
unswerving vigilant concentration on the Self, ceaseless like
the unbroken flow of oil. This readily and spontaneously yields
that direct, immediate, unobstructed, and universal perception
of Brahman, which is at once knowledge and experience and
which transcends time and space. p 210-211

Whatever thoughts arise as obstacles to one’s sadhana
(spiritual discipline), the mind should not be allowed to go in
their direction, but should be made to rest in one’s Self which
is the Atman; one should remain as witness to whatever
happens, adopting the attitude ‘Let whatever strange things
happen, happen; let us see!’ This should be one’s practice. In
other words, one should not identify oneself with appearances;
one should never relinquish one’s Self. This is the proper
means for destruction of the mind (manonasa) which is of
the nature of seeing the body as Self, and which is the cause
of all the aforesaid obstacles. This method which easily
destroys egoity deserves to be called devotion (bhakti),
meditation (dhyana), concentration (yoga), and knowledge
(jnana). Because God remains of the nature of the Self,
shining as ‘I’ in the Heart, because the scriptures declare
that thought itself is bondage, the best discipline is to stay
quiescent without ever forgetting Him (God, the Self), after
resolving in Him the mind which is of the form of the ‘I thought’,
no matter by what means. This is the conclusive
teaching of the scriptures. p 7

Similarly the sage who has inner and outer
senses controlled, in Solitude and equanimity, obtains
experience of the all-pervading Self through perpetual
concentration and thus, getting rid of all mental creations
caused by the darkness of ignorance, becomes actionless and
without attributes and remains eternally in the Bliss of
Brahman himself. p 249

16. Those who seek everlasting liberation need not
endeavour to practise repetition and countless verse mantras
(repeating potent scriptural words or texts to gain various
ends), and methods of yoga such as breath-control
(pranayama), breath retention (kumbhaka) and concentration. p 174-175

Notice in this last example that it is being conveyed that concentration on outer phenomena is being described as unecessary,

With Love
tim

[johnf]

Thanks Tim, that gives me plenty to work with, it seems there is a common theme of

whatever appears or is seen is Brahman, and i find that calming. And I could see spending some

time looking for the mention of concentration in various scriptures, I assume it is found in Buddhist
writings as well?



John

[Shadowman]

Yes John,

Steps 7 and 8, but more particularly the 8th step in the Noble Eightfold Path may be said to relate to concentration,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path#Right_Concentration

Shalom,
tim

[greybeard]

The challenge is that Ramana and others met the enquirer where they stood.
The Ultimate seems to me to be that nothing happened.
I cant find the Ramana quote but it is along the lines of "Neither creation nor disolution"
Such a statement is not helpful to most.
So the sages tended to give advice--pointers relevant to the enquirers capability to understand and benefit.

Eckhart Tolle, who tends to be "user friendly" said " There was never anyone there to hurt you" that will be helpful to some but not all.
What should work for all is the statement " Be still, be quiet"
However even that has pit falls ---its a mistake to look for a result--thats what ego does.

Chris

[Rich]

Thanks for that post tim, it was really interesting to contemplate.
I do not think my ego is real, an ego needs a story and a story needs time, but only eternity is real.

It is true that we can consider our self God in a way, because we are part of God, we are the same mind, but God being our Source and Creator S/He is bigger.

To quote from ACIM:

God has but one Son, knowing them all as One. Only God himself is more than they but they are not less than he is. Would you know what this means? If what you do to my brother you do to me, and if you do everything for yourself because we are part of you, everything we do belongs to you as well. Everyone God created is part of you and shares his glory with you. His glory belongs to him, but it is equally yours. You cannot, then, be less glorious than he is.

[Rich]

Tim you were right, there was some ego to let go off, the ego struggled for a while lol.
But your message was really helpful.

[Shadowman]

Hi Emex,

You’re most welcome.

To gain the highest benefit from this post a suggestion is offered. Set aside 20 minutes without interruptions, turn off the phone, and enter into silence for at least 10 minutes of meditation before continuing. Your mind will probably interject it has heard it all before, but if you still believe you are someplace on a planet called Earth, perhaps you have missed something of immense importance….

Context and definitions of particular words when discussing this subject can lead to unintentional misunderstandings when approaching the subject of awakening.

The definiton of “ego” applied in this thread essentially means the “I” thought in the mind, or the thinking self, also referred to as the relative self. It’s primary characteristic is that it appears to “exist” ie stand forth from and in separation from it’s environment and “others”. It does this via identification with an apparently separate, limited form ie the body/mind.

Without this “I” as a central identity, there could be no identification with outer perceived phenomena or identification with thoughts ie I am male/female, I am happy/sad, I am an atheist/agnostic, I am a Muslim/Christian/Buddhist, I am egoless, I am enlightened etc.

This is perhaps why the meaning of the word Satan is the adversary, or that which opposes, or stands forth from the whole. For there can be no opposition without separation, without duality, without subject (I) and object (world).

Notice also that “paradise” or unity, or communion with “God” was lost when “Adam” ate from the tree of knowledge, ie identified with the mind and the false limited “I am” rather than the true eternal unlimited “I AM” of Pure Being.

The point being, and this is only emphasised to help you assess your current position, is that with the loss of ego, or separate self, or separate doer, there is no longer any separation apparent. There is no “we” in the awakened state. There are no “parts” in the “whole”. Everyone and everything is Brahman/Self/Awareness/Being/Tathagata/God. It is identification with the mind and sensory input that creates the illusion. Which is why it has been repeatedly stated in this thread that using the mind and relative knowledge to “remove” the illusion of a separate self is a great error…

To seek “Mind” (Ed. Absolute Self) with the (discriminating) mind
is the greatest of all mistakes

https://www.peterrussell.com/Odds/FaithMind.php

The passage you quoted above from ACIM is simply a skillful means to coax those still caught in the web of illusion. You can see the resistance in this thread to the direct statements made concerning the absolute state ie Enlightenment is not possible for humans in a body, there is no Self, etc.

So awakened beings, rather than stating the absolute truth directly, offer suggestions and practices whereby seekers/students can gradually lessen their identification with the ego. This is done by encouraging, initially, actions and thinking which is in alignment with the truth that we are not separate beings ie acting selflessly, acting with compassion for all living things, treating others as you would like to be treated, etc. Is it not easier to believe that you are a part of God than that you are God?

Once a foundation has been established, the seeker can then be introduced to sadhanas or spiritual exercises which further weaken the hold of the illusory ego.

The purpose of this thread was to offer some clarification of awakening in as simple a way as possible, and to point out that the limitations being promoted on this planet, ie only a Son of God can realise “I and the father are ONE” or that you are all sinners, are patently false.

It is supremely ridiculous to say awakening is not possible as a human being or to suggest that the Self or God does not exist. These are simply beliefs largely promoted by those who would perpetuate your slavery, (echoed by the misguided and uninformed) for their own material or egoic benefit (thereby unknowingly sinking themselves deeper into illusion and suffering eventually).

It is like, metaphorically speaking, characters in the movie saying that the light which causes their appearance does not exist, or the wave saying the ocean doesn’t exist, or the clouds denying the sky. Or saying that a wave cannot "become" the ocean, lol.

You do not, and cannot, attain or evolve into THAT which you already ARE. It is simply a case of dissolving the illusion, which anyone, of any gender, of any age, of any professed belief system, of any level of intelligence, CAN realise, regardless of past errors or sins, providing they have a genuine heartfelt desire to do so.

As has already been indicated, it is not a question of if you will awaken, but when, and why. The best advice that can be given is that those whose intentions are motivated by Love and Wisdom, genuine Compassion for all beings, human, animal or otherwise, have already taken the first true “Giant leap for mankind” by aligning themselves with REALITY, with LOVE and with TRUTH, and will be the ones who suffer least in letting go of all that was just a dream,

With Love/In Lak’ech
tim

[Rich]

I did as you suggested.

I don't agree that we are God, at least not the God that is referred to in ACIM.
But we are one with God. Some awakened beings claim they are God, even Nisragadatta had the audacity to say he was above God...
he said something like; he is the root and god is the tree, so obviously he didn't mean THE God.
Perhaps it is not important whether someone believes in God or not, important is the desire for truth.



but if you still believe you are someplace on a planet called Earth, perhaps you have missed something of immense importance….


Yes, I understand this tim. I do not believe I am in a place, the concept of place is an idea in the mind. Where could you be, except where you have always been?

Here one of my favorite quotes from ACIM:

You are as God created you. There is no place where you can suffer, and no time that can bring change to your eternal state.
How can a world of time and place exist, if you remain as God created you?

[Shadowman]

Hi Rich,

I don't agree that we are God, at least not the God that is referred to in ACIM. But we are one with God

How and when did you arrive at the conclusion that you are one with God?
Is this a belief or your direct realisation of what is?

And if, as you say, that you are not God, yet are one with God, how and in what way are you separate, other than in your thinking/beliefs?

Some awakened beings claim they are God, even Nisragadatta had the audacity to say he was above God... he said something like; he is the root and god is the tree, so obviously he didn't mean THE God.

Q: Is there no God apart from you?
M: How can there be? 'I am' is the root, God is the tree. Whom am I to worship, and what for? – p.58 Ch 15 “I am That”

You are still perceiving from the relative mind, so you conclude Nisargadatta is speaking from the same place, he is not. He was not saying that he, as an individual, was above God, but that the true “I am” or Self is the foundation of all appearances and apparent manifestations, which includes the separate imagined God of the seeker. So, he was not being audacious nor egotistical, he was simply stating a fact, and attempting to provide guidance to one still caught up in the mind and it’s imaginations. Nisargadatta was responding to a seeker whose opening statement was;

Questioner: Without God's power nothing can be done. Even you would not be sitting here and talking to us without Him.

I do not believe I am in a place, the concept of place is an idea in the mind.

You understand that places and time are creations of the mind, yet don’t see that your (and any) concept of God (including that of a God whom you are somehow separate from, and yet one with) may also be a creation of the mind.

Rich, you are making the mistake Sosan refers to above, you are trying to arrive at the Absolute by using the very thing that obscures it, the mind.

Are you undertaking the lessons in the course in miracles? Or undertaking any other spiritual practice ie meditation at present?

With Love/Namaste
tim

[Rich]

Honestly tim, I do not want to derail the thread by making it about my story or about God, I know in many non dual teachings they do not really believe in God.
I am not here to challenge that belief. :flower:



Rich, you are making the mistake Sosan refers to above, you are trying to arrive at the Absolute by using the very thing that obscures it, the mind.
No, it is really about letting go of thoughts and concepts.
Do you seriously believe that I do not understand this? :Angel:

The way I am using the word mind, is that everything is the mind and there is nothing outside of it.
In your terms it might be called pure consciousness or awareness.


Are you undertaking the lessons in the course in miracles? Or undertaking any other spiritual practice ie meditation at present?

Yes, I do meditation and reading (ACIM), I have read much of this thread 4-5 times and several posts more than that.:sherlock:


As you say "The goose is already out, it was never in".
Why try to convince me of that which I already know?
:wizard:

[Shadowman]

No, it is really about letting go of thoughts and concepts.
Do you seriously believe that I do not understand this? :Angel:

As you say "The goose is already out, it was never in".
Why try to convince me of that which I already know?
:wizard:

Hi Rich,

Actually it is more about letting go of the conceptual “I” which identifies with the phenomena of thoughts and concepts. It is this I which causes the experience of separation, the “we” or “parts” in “God”.

It is apparent from your posts that while you understand/know this, you are still writing from an intellectual understanding, not from the “perspective” of realisation, a state wherein there is no identification, either as a body, as a mind/ego, or as a human ie

The way I see it, as a human, the job is Never done, because we cannot have both Reality and Illusion at the same time, no human can have God consciousness but they can let go of the dream/human temporarily and see Reality.

It is true that we can consider our self God in a way, because we are part of God, we are the same mind, but God being our Source and Creator S/He is bigger.

Tim you were right, there was some ego to let go off, the ego struggled for a while lol. But your message was really helpful.

This assessment may be incorrect, for it is difficult to ascertain on an internet forum the seekers level of preparation. Which is why specific questions were asked to clarify both the nature and the timing of how and when you came to the understanding that you don’t have an ego, and are one with God. Claims which many would equate with enlightenment, or the very God Consciousness you say no human can have. Even the very word Human is itself indicative of the inherent potential to realize God/Self…

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52373-How-to-find-god-in-two-easy-steps&p=597294&viewfull=1#post597294

These questions were asked to assess how best to respond to your statements. It would be a disservice to you to acknowledge your awakening prematurely. Regardless of where you are at, no judgement was intended, any observations made were made with Love, and a genuine intent to assist you, and any others who are dealing with similiar issues.

If it is the case that “the goose is out”, nothing further need be said.

If on the other hand, you come to find you are not yet free, the best course is to attend to your practice. To get caught up in questions and discussions, be they theological, philosophical or metaphysical, simply prolongs the dream…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Poisoned_Arrow

It would be helpful to have a short response to the first 3 questions in my last post, and a brief description of your current meditation technique, should you wish to continue our interaction. You can PM me if you would prefer to continue privately,

Namaste
tim

[Rich]

Hi Rich,

Actually it is more about letting go of the conceptual “I” which identifies with the phenomena of thoughts and concepts. It is this I which causes the experience of separation, the “we” or “parts” in “God”.
:yes4:



This assessment may be incorrect, for it is difficult to ascertain on an internet forum the seekers level of preparation.
Indeed, not even I know what level I am on :pound:
Waking up is an on going process, it does not stop.


Which is why specific questions were asked to clarify both the nature and the timing of how and when you came to the understanding that you don’t have an ego, and are one with God. Claims which many would equate with enlightenment,
I do not make these claims.
I believe as long as you have a body you have an ego.:decision:



or the very God Consciousness you say no human can have. Even the very word Human is itself indicative of the inherent potential to realize God/Self…
Everyone is free to realize truth, but when you see it, there is no human left, but you come back to being human after that. :ph34r:




These questions were asked to assess how best to respond to your statements. It would be a disservice to you to acknowledge your awakening prematurely. Regardless of where you are at, no judgement was intended, any observations made were made with Love,
I know we are Love :luv:


I think we should give it a rest, at least for now, just one more video I want to post that might be of interest to you.

[Rich]

Maybe this might be of interest to you tim, watch this from 1:17 to about 1:30 he explains his experience of going from enlightenment to meeting God.
vpjh0vZnvbo

[Shadowman]

Which is why specific questions were asked to clarify both the nature and the timing of how and when you came to the understanding that you don’t have an ego, and are one with God. Claims which many would equate with enlightenment,

I do not make these claims.
I believe as long as you have a body you have an ego.:decision:

Quite so, you don't make these claims Rich, Emex did ;). Or Perhaps Emexe's posts #357, #358 & #360 were misunderstood;

"I do not think my ego is real,"

"Tim you were right, there was some ego to let go off, the ego struggled for a while lol."

"But we are one with God."

So is it the body then that "has" an ego, albeit unreal? Or else who is the "you" that has a body and an ego? :sherlock: :ROFL:

Lol, nothing unreal (including bodies and ego's) actually exists. And nothing real can be threatened, yes?

But in the end, lol, you had me at "we are love". As good a starting point as any :inlove:

All the best on your journey
With Love
tim

[petra]

When people say "God is Love" I feel like they're breaking the language lol
"We are Love" sounds a whole lot better.

[Shadowman]

When people say "God is Love" I feel like they're breaking the language lol
"We are Love" sounds a whole lot better.

It was a concession to Rich, but perhaps breaking the language was the idea in the expression, kind of like a koan breaks the spell of the mind.

In silence what appears as two is found to be one love...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/SwansCygnus_olor.jpg

After awakening personalised love songs take on a divine flavour, lol...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3AXKjlH4rQ

I can see beyond forever
Everything we are will never die
Loving's such a beautiful thing


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nREV8bQJ1MA

With (One) Love
tim

[petra]

When people say "God is Love" I feel like they're breaking the language lol
"We are Love" sounds a whole lot better.

It was a concession to Rich, but perhaps breaking the language was the idea in the expression, kind of like a koan breaks the spell of the mind.

In silence what appears as two is found to be one love...

After awakening personalised love songs take on a divine flavour, lol...

With (One) Love
tim

That sounds so sweet! It's a shame personalized love songs make me want to throw up, because they're really beautiful. Lol..

I like the swan photo, that's beautiful 😀

"Breaking a spell of the mind" is great. I remember thinking "I'm breaking out of my programming!" and then laughing at it. Programming.... ha ha ha

[Rich]

The main area of contention with bob was his assertion that there is no Self, with a capital S, (in the absolute sense) as well as no self in the relative sense, which was responded to here...

If, as bob suggests, there is no self, who then does he propose is "here to learn how to do the right thing"?

I think he means consciousness without a self/Self can learn to do the right thing, so from that assumption any self is a unreal.
An interesting thought, there is a video from Jac O'Keeffe where she makes the statement that Beingness is a concept too:

Nat_untnhW0

[Shadowman]

I think he means consciousness without a self/Self can learn to do the right thing, so from that assumption any self is a unreal.
An interesting thought, there is a video from Jac O'Keeffe where she makes the statement that Beingness is a concept too:

Hi Rich,

Lol, consciousness without the Self is metaphorically a cloud without the sky, or a wave without the ocean.

You are still intellectually confusing the Absolute (Self/Pure Awareness) with the Relative (self/conditioned consciousness). Which is perfectly understandable, lol, the english language is not ideal for expressing non duality. Words like self, consciousness, mind, awareness, god, reality, meditation, existence etc can have entirely different meanings depending on the context and intent of any communication.

Consciousness*, learning, and all concepts of right and wrong, being and not being, truth and untruth, real and unreal, are relative.

Characters in a movie/dream, irrespective of their identification (or alleged non-identification**) with an I or self, are appearances in relativity/duality only. As the source, (ie the “light” which allows the characters to appear on the movie screen, or the “dreamer” which allows for all the characters in the dream), they are real, but as dream or movie characters they are unreal.

What Jac refers to as “Prior to consciousness” (of which she is reluctant to speak, given her experience is expressed as erratic only) is the Self referred to in the OP. She uses the term "Being" relatively on the whiteboard, in that sense “to be or not to be”, are two opposite concepts in duality. However her use of the term Not Being is ironically then used as a pointer towards the substrate or plenary reality which is eternal and unchanging.

The Supreme/Absolute/Self cannot be known or understood. Words, meanings and definitions are all just concepts pointing towards the indefinable/ineffable. Discussion without practice is futile. It is like constantly making maps while never exploring. Don't get caught up on the words (finger), or you will go around in endless circles, look where the finger is pointing.

Your recent epiphany is an important step. If possible, discipline yourself to sit in silence for as long as possible each day, preferably at the same time initially. Rest in what you refer to as the energy behind all appearances, remaining as the non personal witness of all objective phenomena. The final step, Self Realisation /Mahasamadhi/ Manonasa /Heaven/Nirvana/Turiya happens naturally and spontaneously.

Do you have a daily practice currently Rich? Doing nothing is sometimes misunderstood to mean not undertaking a sadhana/practise.

In Lak'ech
tim

* In this context, mind/body consciousness with a conceptual “I” or ego.

** ie “I do not think my ego is real” , lol.

[Shadowman]

An Easter message of encouragement;

Materialists and atheists believe that day by day they are coming closer to death.

But while all things must pass in actuality all that dies is the ego and day by day you are coming closer to Awakening/Enlightenment/Self/God, so don't stop digging (practising your sadhana/meditation), you may be closer than you think...

https://pplscrt79.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/never-give-up.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekoHxB4idmg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qJTJNfzvr8

With Much Love
In Lak'ech
tim

[Marta]

From my perspective, this experience related here tells about forgetting about yourself. This makes you vulnerable to be manipulated by someone else’s mind. How can you reach enlightenment, if you’re a puppet of someone else? I wish I could get some kind answer to my humble question. Thank you. Blessings to all. Love, peace and union forever. So lucky that I found you to repair my disgraceful soul. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you again.

[greybeard]

From my perspective, this experience related here tells about forgetting about yourself. This makes you vulnerable to be manipulated by someone else’s mind. How can you reach enlightenment, if you’re a puppet of someone else? I wish I could get some kind answer to my humble question. Thank you. Blessings to all. Love, peace and union forever. So lucky that I found you to repair my disgraceful soul. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you again.

Thanks for your post Marta.
It takes some time to get out of concepts and conditioning.
In simplicity--your soul is perfect and in no need of repair or anything else.
The persona the me is constantly changing and attitude can be improved but what your really are is eternal--- you temporarily inhabit a human body and all that goes with that.
The ego is very powerful but it is just a though that you identify with--me and mine etc.
Life is full of ups and downs but its not personal-- you dont have to take events personally--just investigate what you really are.
I had in mind to post the next bit before reading your post it may be helpful
Stick around--good to see you on this thread.
Love Chris

¤=[Post Update]=¤

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-51093672


'My silent retreat obsession changed my life'
By Jim Farthing Newsbeat reporter

6 February 2020


A few years ago, Gemma Needham was stuck in a job she didn't love, while struggling with stress and anxiety.

Then a friend recommended a book on meditation.

"I was doing my job for the money and had various relationships which weren't great," she tells Radio 1 Newsbeat. "The book gave me perspective, I felt so much calmer."

The 26-year-old started meditating at home in Nottinghamshire, before deciding she wanted to take things up a level.

She looked online for silent retreats - holidays where you meditate and don't speak to anyone, sometimes for several days at a time. Then, she booked a three-day visit to a retreat near Exeter, not knowing what to expect.

"It was tough at first but absolutely life-changing."
Image copyright Gemma Needham
Image caption Gemma first started meditating at home on her own

"I was the youngest there and I was sharing a room with five strangers.

But, she says, at least there was no need to make small talk with strangers.

"That would have been much more awkward."

Over the past three years, Gemma has done 10 silent retreats - some for up to 12 days long.

"I was definitely addicted - one year I did five retreats. When you come out, it's like the world is a different place."
Image copyright Gaia House
Image caption A typical bedroom at the retreat where Gemma would share with five other guests

Since she started attending retreats, Gemma has turned her life around. She's quit her job, deleted Facebook, started learning the piano and begun a new career in healthcare.
'Everything in my life has changed'

But it wasn't an immediate transformation. At first, she found meditating for long periods a slog.

"An hour's meditation in a hall with 100 people is different from 20 minutes alone at home. Thoughts and feelings you're unaware of can come up, and when you're with that many people, you feel like you can't just get up and leave."

It wasn't until her fifth retreat that she had her "lightbulb moment".

"I woke up in the middle of the night, everybody was asleep, it was pitch black and something in my mind clicked."

Gemma says it made her see difficult situations in a new light.

"I realised that if something seems stressful, the way you see it is not the only way of looking at it."
Image copyright Gemma Needham
Image caption Gemma says meditating helped her conquer a phobia of needles

She quit her office job and joined the ambulance service, which she never thought would be possible.

"Before I started meditating, I had a bad needle phobia. When having an injection, I would need to be pinned down by four people - it was awful."

"I'd always wanted to be a doctor and I got the A-Levels but changed my mind two weeks before the university application date."

But now, her phobia has disappeared and she's working in nursing.

"Everything just affects me less."

At first, Gemma's family were surprised that she was choosing to spend her free time this way.
Image caption Gemma in Taiwan where she visited a friend who she'd bonded over meditation with

"They were like, 'you're a 24-year-old going on silent retreats with old people, don't you want to do more interesting things?'"

But now, she says they can see the benefits of her unusual holiday choice.

"I have more patience - instead of just reacting and getting angry or upset with people - I can take a step back."
What actually happens on a silent retreat?

Silent retreats have a long history in many religions including Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity.

They can be done alone or, like Gemma, in a group.

Typically, there are no phones, reading or TV, and you are encouraged to not write.

"Each day starts at about 6am but there are no clocks so you're woken up by someone ringing a bell," Gemma says.
Image copyright Gaia House
Image caption The meditation hall where Gemma would spend hours each day

"Then you go into the meditation hall for about an hour, and after that is breakfast.

"Everyone is sat around eating in silence, but simple things like trying to manoeuvre past people without saying 'excuse me' can be tricky.

"If you bump into someone, you automatically say 'sorry' then you have to apologise for speaking and everyone laughs."

The rest of the day is spent doing sitting and walking meditation, broken up by meal times.

"Days usually end around 9pm. People tend to just go to bed because you're completely knackered."
Image copyright Gaia House
Image caption Some meditation is done outdoors

And Gemma's love of retreats shows no signs of lessening - she plans to keep attending at least one retreat a year.

"I've learnt the importance of relaxing more and looking after myself - we all just need to chill out."


Ps I got threads mixed up-- however-- perhaps Shadowman will reply.

Chris

[Marta]

Thank you for your kind recommendation of a silent retreat. However, the point I was questioning was “forgetting about your ego”. I mean, I was educated in a very traditional family, a catholic one. This was programming my mind to become the perfect “catholic mother”: care about your sons, care about your parents, care about your friends or partners and care about everybody else - but you. Celebrate poverty as a virtue. The house must always be cleaned. You have to always listen to the male leader and barely speak. Please everybody and forget about what you feel, what you need. Give your everything, expecting nothing in return. How is this kind of enlightenment different from the traditional catholic roles? I have never found real happiness this way.

[stal]

>direct, succinct
19 pages

[greybeard]

Thank you for your kind recommendation of a silent retreat. However, the point I was questioning was “forgetting about your ego”. I mean, I was educated in a very traditional family, a catholic one. This was programming my mind to become the perfect “catholic mother”: care about your sons, care about your parents, care about your friends or partners and care about everybody else - but you. Celebrate poverty as a virtue. The house must always be cleaned. You have to always listen to the male leader and barely speak. Please everybody and forget about what you feel, what you need. Give your everything, expecting nothing in return. How is this kind of enlightenment different from the traditional catholic roles? I have never found real happiness this way.

Marta Im not really recommending silent retreat--- a step too far in the early stages of learning about yourself.
Enlightenment is about you.
Discovering your true nature.
Religeon tends to be a contrast of hope and fear.
Enlightenment has nothing to do with any of that.
I study non-duality and in particular Advaita Vedanta
You might find the links of interest
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?108625-Advaita-Vedanta---The-Greatest-Philosophy-on-Earth--&p=1314602&viewfull=1#post1314602

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-and-related-matters.&p=7764&viewfull=1#post7764

Ego is a separation device " Edge God Out"
Your energy is the same as the "Creator" you are not separate from That.
It takes time to see the difference between religion and spiritual paths.
Basically religion is all about God spirituality is about you--- what you really are, discovering Self

Best wishes Chris

[Shadowman]

From my perspective, this experience related here tells about forgetting about yourself. This makes you vulnerable to be manipulated by someone else’s mind. How can you reach enlightenment, if you’re a puppet of someone else? I wish I could get some kind answer to my humble question. Thank you. Blessings to all. Love, peace and union forever. So lucky that I found you to repair my disgraceful soul. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you again.


Thank you for your kind recommendation of a silent retreat. However, the point I was questioning was “forgetting about your ego”. I mean, I was educated in a very traditional family, a catholic one. This was programming my mind to become the perfect “catholic mother”: care about your sons, care about your parents, care about your friends or partners and care about everybody else - but you. Celebrate poverty as a virtue. The house must always be cleaned. You have to always listen to the male leader and barely speak. Please everybody and forget about what you feel, what you need. Give your everything, expecting nothing in return. How is this kind of enlightenment different from the traditional catholic roles? I have never found real happiness this way.

Hi Marta,

No one is asking you to become a puppet. Sometimes in life we may surrender to a teacher's guidance. Say you want to learn to ski. You can do it on your own, but generally you will become more proficient in a shorter time if you take lessons. You will likely have more confidence in a ski teacher if you have seen an exhibition of their skill. The same with submitting to surgery or dentistry. Either a teacher has been recommended, or has the right qualifications, or is simply the most convenient to your location. Whether you choose to accept guidance from a teacher or go it alone is entirely up to you.

When it comes to inquiring into the nature of reality things aren't quite so simple. Transcending (not forgetting) the illusory concept of your ego is a tricky business and language is designed for operating in, and communication between minds, in the (relative) world. Even if you find a genuine teacher, depending upon your conditioning, programming and beliefs, you may not recognize them as such, or may misunderstand their teaching. Like other areas of life there are also charlatans ready to exploit you.

There are links to websites and books in this thread to provide a basis for understanding the nature of "enlightenment" in the context in which it is used in this thread. There are also references to genuinely awakened teachers and practices which you can utilize yourself, at no financial cost, to directly realize who you are REALLY. And the good news is that even if it takes you a million human lives of suffering and disgrace, in the end it will all be worth it. Eventually, endless lives of ultimate dissatisfaction, what Buddha referred to as Dukkha, ripen even the "dullest disgraceful soul" and inspire us to embark on the ultimate quest, the fool's journey, the great adventure to remember that we are not the pauper but the King (metaphorically speaking).

But you must want it above any worldly desire, whether that worldy desire be fame, fortune or pleasure (hence poverty has been considered a virtue, for the pursuit of treasures on earth is an obstacle and your time is relatively short - Matthew 6:19-21). Which is why the greatest commandment is reported to have been “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." - Matthew 22:37

In Lak'ech
tim

[Merkaba360]

I'm only partway thru this interesting thread. Sorry, this is hard for me to organize, i have so many thoughts about this. So beware, if its thinking outloud kind of rambling.

On page 5, shadowman says " And here is the test, your beliefs change, understanding changes, insight and even intuition are subject to change, but when you realize the Self in the context that I am using it, in the same context that all awakened beings use it, the Self is reality, eternal and unchanging."

Many have said "the Self is reality" and its always kinda annoyed me :) I don't think I like using this word Self, when self means our appearance of a body shell. So, what exactly is this eternal unchanging thing called Self?

I need to relate it to my own experience. For example, I've been the ghost, observing the holographic light show, knowing that im not even in the merkaba. I didnt know anything about that ghost unchanging/eternal observer. I just experienced it relative to peering into the holographic merkaba. Essentially, I was the third eye, which was the assemblage point of perception on the upper back surface of the merkaba/torus/apple/cocoon. My sense of "self" (which was a ghost with no body) felt outside the merkaba but i was peering in right from the surface of the sphere. The reality inside changed to spherical, like a snowglobe.

So, if the unchanging is basically the background canvas/aether/space or whatever, then that is what is real? Many teachers just throw that vague statement out there without explaining it. If that is what they mean by what is real, then why should anybody care? Pretty sure people wouldnt get excited about taking a holiday thru "Reality" if its not observable. I'm struggling to put this in words, I hope someone can get the issue here and can clarify. If this is off base, then elaborate on what this "real" "world" is. lol

In our current state we do consider the seemingly unchanging walls as "real." So, perhaps thats why we are fooled so easily , since our true "real" reality is the same in that way, unchanging. It just seems that the paradox is that what is real in this world is not real, and then the not real is real. lol So, what do i consider not real? The void is the closest thing.

Also, why can't people anchor all this spiritual language in relation to the energetic structures and design of the "illusion". It would make it much more understandable if the mechanics of their various types of awakenings were explained. Our science is getting more advanced and these things can be explained better in more updated ways.

Using computers as an analogy is a very powerful tool. The 2D+time computer screen is equal to the 3D+time holographic merkaba. The tree of life is the internet cables of light connecting all of the merkaba/torus/apples. When the bandwidth enters the merkaba at the assemblage point it refracts like a prism creating the 7 chakras, the rainbow body. However, the screen is only part of the computer. So, what does awakening reveal to us behind the scenes, that which can not be seen that is below the keyboard.

Science also understands fractals and some of the mechanics for holographics. Afterall, we need to integrate esoterics/philosophy with grounded science.

So, why can't "awakened beings" ever explain how their realizations and power relate to these structures/patterns of the matrix.

If Eckhart Tolle can't fly, then he can't manipulate the hologram. If he can't, are there tibetan monks who CAN fly that reached enlightenment 2.0? Do we need to become liberated like Eckhart first before we can do these other things. Should I shoot to achieve more than these guys? lol OR perhaps they just hide all their powers.

I dont know, it seems misleading to use this word "real". To me it seems more accurate to say, real and illusion are the same thing. IF i awaken and everything i know dissolves into illusion, it dissolves into wholeness where real and unreal lose meaning. So, I dont think I would call that wholeness existence real.

Otherwise, I need somebody to tell me loads of details about what existence is like in the "real" world after I beat this illusion.

Its not like we can go anywhere else? Liberation to me is just being free of the holographic matrix. Having one foot in and on foot out like when i experienced being on the surface of the merkaba. I was outside it and still aware of the inside. So are enlightened beings shifting in and out. They zoom inside the merkaba sometimes, but if someone comes to kill them, they just shift to the outside perspective. Its similar with dreams how we zoom from 1st to 3rd person.

That's why I love Don Juan's explanations so much. He said, its about freedom to perceive all possibility. And he took the time to explain the mechanics of percpetion and the merkaba/coccoon. He mentioned that once you basically shifted the assemblage point all around the surface, you can reach the totality. And all of the emanations inside the coccoon become lit up. I guess thats what gives us our radiant shine and everything is attracted to that energy field.

Sorry, its all over the place and so long.

[Merkaba360]

" Rumi does provide a clue, The Self is the I that is left once all illusory attachments/identifications have been given up, the brain/mind/thoughts/ clothes/body etc. That I, unlike the thinking I/ego, is not a mental construct, it is entirely beyond the mind."

Here again. This isn't much of a clue. lol We've heard these things a 1000 times, but why should anybody care about chasing something so vague. Don't get me wrong, im pulled toward it as all of us are. But seriously, I swear that I need to be enlightened just so somebody can finally explain this better. Of course, its beyond words, but surely much more can be said to give a better idea.

Its BEYOND EVERYTHING. :) So, why would one want to turn off this holographic light show illusion and hang out in this mysterious reality? IS there anything to do? lol Is it beyond feeling? Is there any kind of transmission or communication of some kind? Or does the REAL reality suck without its opposite projected illusion. Are both needed? arent they essentially the same thing? That is the state of God? If enlightened beings are in the REAL world with "God", they sure dont seem very omniscient from earths point of view. Why cant enlightened beings connect to that pool of omniscience and download any answer.

I realize some of these questions probably are just distortions, but where do i find more on this ever elusive Real world im missing out on. lol

[Shadowman]

" Rumi does provide a clue, The Self is the I that is left once all illusory attachments/identifications have been given up, the brain/mind/thoughts/ clothes/body etc. That I, unlike the thinking I/ego, is not a mental construct, it is entirely beyond the mind."

Here again. This isn't much of a clue. lol We've heard these things a 1000 times, but why should anybody care about chasing something so vague. Don't get me wrong, im pulled toward it as all of us are. But seriously, I swear that I need to be enlightened just so somebody can finally explain this better. Of course, its beyond words, but surely much more can be said to give a better idea.

Its BEYOND EVERYTHING. :) So, why would one want to turn off this holographic light show illusion and hang out in this mysterious reality? IS there anything to do? lol Is it beyond feeling? Is there any kind of transmission or communication of some kind? Or does the REAL reality suck without its opposite projected illusion. Are both needed? arent they essentially the same thing? That is the state of God? If enlightened beings are in the REAL world with "God", they sure dont seem very omniscient from earths point of view. Why cant enlightened beings connect to that pool of omniscience and download any answer.

I realize some of these questions probably are just distortions, but where do i find more on this ever elusive Real world im missing out on. lol

Hi Merkaba,

Try the links in the opening post, or the books recommended, to gain insight on the nature of Absolute Awareness. It has nothing to do with a world, an idea, or any form whatsoever.

When you are ready, choose a spiritual practice. Better to be IT, rather than to attempt to perceive IT or understand IT, neither of which are possible anyway.

Most of your questions have already been answered in one way or another in this thread to others.

It isn't about gaining knowledge of the Self, or whatever term you prefer, it's about dis-identifying with appearances/illusions, the most persuasive of which is the "I" that is seeking answers relative to it's "needs" .

In truth, you already are IT. And IT is beyond space, time, form and conception. Just don't try to "get there" with the mind. The closest that dualistic language can come to explaining IT has already been stated

as "God is Love". But using words is like trying to show someone the ocean, one thimble full at a time, they'll be dead long before they "see" the ocean.

https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_poisoned_arrow

Explore the metaphors contained in the thread, but if you really want direct spiritual awakening - practice!


In Lak'ech
SM

[O Donna]

It isn't about gaining knowledge of the Self, or whatever term you prefer, it's about dis-identifying with appearances/illusions, the most persuasive of which is the "I" that is seeking answers relative to it's "needs" .


Point to 'I', a stretch


“The lady doth protest too much, methinks”
- Hamlet


Perseverance is persistent insistence.
- Manuela George-Izunwa

In a sense, I am a metaphor

Meta-four

Four: in ancient symbolism:

It represents stability, the body, and the illusion of time – the 4th dimension.

[greybeard]

I come here for the first post of Tim from time to time.
The Truth coming from Nasargadatta --Ramana and others is identical.
David Carse Is my current listening daily.
Many thanks to Tim who is the flute that the Divine music/Truth flows through

Chris


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR_C2NNB-wI&t=358s

[guenonsbitch]

Nothing Real Can Be Threatened,
Nothing Unreal Exists!
Therein Lies The Peace Of GOD!!

From A Course In Miracles!

HUGS...........Godiam


I haven’t been on Project Avalon in a few months, as I have a 7 month old baby who takes lots of time. BUT I started A Course in Miracles a month ago and it’s helped me make sense of my unity consciousness experience I had two years ago. I came to the forum to see what PA members say about the Course, but I can never figure out how to use the search here, so I just clicked on spirituality, clicked this thread, and of course the first reply mentions the Course!! The syncs have been out of control this last month. Can’t wait to shed this ego fully and return to source with all of creation ❤️

[greybeard]

To "my" mind, this is one of the most important threads in Avalon.
What more can be said?
Chris

[Shadowman]

Hi all. Here is a cool magic trick;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIZyMvRnwhA

The ego (fake I/eye) produces an illusion much more powerful than the one above.

It creates a duality which includes both "you" and the "world". Both of which are a magic trick/Maya.

The fall from grace/paradise/Eden/Absolute Awareness metaphorically occurred when Adam and Eve
ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (ie thereby identifying with relative awareness) or the mind
(Sanskrit Manas - that which measures and compares). Then the ego, which is actually an object, masquerades
as the subject so that I am body/mind APPEARS to obscure/usurp the Absolute I AM

Not to worry - there is a solution for the delusion - simply awaken from the dream/hypnotic state.

Ironically in light of the above effect, where you had to outwardly watch the eye constantly to produce the illusion - to awaken
from the dream you simply consistently turn your attention inwardly to the inner "I" or I AM/Absolute Awareness to realize the Truth
of who you are. What have you got to lose by trying?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXi38hV9zvQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFz_2eeTkVU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOEF1aOCLaE


So who are you really? Can you say it? What "See's" all, but cannot be seen;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kkMDsUFkcA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o72zAklatXc


If not listen to Wu Hsin or Ramana. They have a few clues...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odcYwl4ACtw&list=PLWzYrEdlV4O5f5GUnfJkFwNS3xyQSjObm&index=3

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWzYrEdlV4O4i8fHqNOwXK9S077EA7TnE

And if you still remain a sinner (From the original Greek for sin "Hamartia" - to miss the point ie that no-one notices), there is always
great music to make the dream tolerable...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUScBNNVjkc

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/L68INFdHIUs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn8F_u0vBNI

maybe i
lost my mind
no one noticed
no one noticed


But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

[Shadowman]

For those who like their whiskey straight, pure spirit, no mixers (or rituals, postures, fees or mumbo jumbo )...

ASHTAVAKRA: THE PUREST EXPRESSION OF TRUTH

"Ashtavakra says it can happen right now. There is no need to delay even a single moment. There
is no reason to leave it for tomorrow, no need to postpone it. This happening does not occur in the
future, it happens now or never. When it happens it happens right now, because there is no time
except now. Where is the future? When it comes, it comes as now.

So those who have become enlightened, have become enlightened in the now. Do not leave it for
some other time – that is the cunning of the mind. The mind argues: ”How can it happen so fast?
Get ready first.”

People come to meet me and they say, ”We will take sannyas. We’ll take it some day.” Some day!
They will never take it. If it is put off, it is put off forever. ”Some day” never comes. If you are going
to take it, take it now. There is no other time than now. Life is now, liberation is now. Ignorance is
now, knowing is now. Sleep is now, awakening can happen now. Why some day?

It is difficult for the mind, the mind says, you will have to make preparations. The mind argues, ”How
can anything happen without preparations? When a person wants a certificate from the university, it
takes years. For a doctorate it takes twenty to twenty-five years. Working year after year finally one
attains his doctorate. How can it happen right now?”

Ashtavakra knows this. If you want to have a store, you can’t open it right now. You will have to
collect everything, arrange things, bring the goods, construct the store, attract customers, send out
advertising – it will take years! In this world nothing happens right now. It happens in orderly steps,
and this is good. Ashtavakra knows this, I know it too. But there is one phenomenon in this world
which takes place right now. It is godliness. Godliness is not your shop, nor your examination hall,
not your university. Godliness does not happen in steps, it has already happened. It is merely a
question of opening your eyes. The sun has already emerged. The sun is not waiting for your eyes,
saying that until your eyes open he won’t come out. The sun is already out. Light is spread all
over. His music is resounding day and night. The sound of ”AUM” is vibrating in all directions. The
unstruck music is echoing everywhere. Open your ears! Open your eyes!

How much time does it take to open your eyes? It takes even less time to attain godliness. It takes
a moment for the eyelid to blink. The Hindi word for moment means the time it takes to blink an eye.
But it does not take even that much time to attain godliness.

”... you are the witness of the whole universe. Know this and be happy.” Be happy right now.
Ashtavakra’s religion is not by installments. It is cash in hand, hard cash.
”Oh expansive one, religion and atheism, happiness and misery, all are of the mind, they are not for
you. You are not the doer nor the enjoyer. You have always been liberated.”
Enlightenment is our inherent nature. Wisdom is our inner nature. Godliness is our way of being. It
is our center. It is the fragrance of our life, our being.

Ashtavakra says, ”Oh expansive one, oh bringer of joy, oh luxurious magnificence, religion and
atheism, happiness and misery, all are of the mind. These are all waves of thought.” You have done
evil or good, committed sin or done good deeds, built a temple or given alms – all this is of the mind.

”You are not the doer nor the enjoyer. You have always been liberated.”
You are eternally free, you have always been free.
Liberation is not a happening which we have to work for.
Liberation has already happened in our being.

The whole existence is made of freedom. Every particle of it, every pore of it is made of liberation.
Freedom is the material from which the whole existence is produced. Freedom is its very nature.
This declaration – just understand it and the transformation takes place. There is nothing to do
except understand it. If it descends into you, if you listen with your whole mind, it is enough.
I would like to say ”Enough for today.” Make a total effort to understand Ashtavakra. In Ashtavakra
there is no place for doing. So don’t think some method which you can do is going to emerge.

Ashtavakra does not suggest anything to do. Listen in repose. Nothing is going to happen by doing.
So don’t bring a scratch pad or book to take notes in when a sutra comes. Don’t write it down to do
later. Doing doesn’t work here. Listen with no concern for the future. Just listen. Just sit quietly with
me and listen. Listen to me in relaxation. Just listening... listening, you can become enlightened.
This is why Mahavir said that a shravaka is a seeker who can be enlightened just by listening! A
shravaka means one who becomes liberated just by listening. A sadhu means one who cannot
become liberated by listening. He is a little less intelligent – he has to practice something. The
shadow of the whip is not enough for him. This horse belongs to a slightly lower class: the whip
cracks, then it moves a little. Or beat it and it moves a little.

The shadow is enough.
Listen – the shadow of the whip will become apparent.

With Ashtavakra one thing has to be remembered: There is nothing to do. You can listen joyfully. You
don’t have to extract anything from it to try out later. Whatever happens will happen from listening.
Right listening is the key.

”This very moment you will be happy, at peace and free of bondage.”

Be liberated right now. Be enlightened this very moment. Nobody is stopping you, nothing is
preventing you. There is no need to budge an inch. Be enlightened right where you are, because
you are free already. Awaken and be enlightened.

”Unattached and without form, you are the witness of the whole universe. Know this and be happy.”
Be happy. There is no need to wait a single moment. It is a leap, a quantum leap. With Ashtavakra
there are no steps. It is not a gradual evolution but sudden. It can happen this very moment."

- Osho p22 The Mahageeta


For Reading...

https://ia903105.us.archive.org/18/items/alloshobooks39883p/Osho%20a.k.a.%20Rajneesh%20%28312%20Books%29/The%20Mahageeta%2C%20Vol%201.pdf

https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Ashtavakra-Gita-ebook.pdf


For Watching...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nikQanBSVw


For Listening...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXmZ8BORhx4&list=PLrRLwPzEcunQsBdreqssqZ4CXZrW9XSH4

[Shadowman]

It is worth adding Sarvapriyananda's warning about The Ashtavakra Gita. Some hearing it may conclude that as they are already That (in the Absolute sense), nothing needs to be done (in the relative sense) other than continue in their egoic state and await the Grace of the Self to Awaken them. As was pointed out earlier in this thread to a Duck (or was she a Goose, lol?) as long as it appears or seems that you are a body/mind entity existing within a physical universe, you would be wise to continue your Spiritual Practice/Sadhana until the actual Absolute Truth is Self Evident and without the least trace of a doubt.


Swami Sarvapriyananda warns that the Ashtavakra Gita is an incredibly powerful and "dangerous" text that can be easily misunderstood by immature minds. While it contains the highest, direct, and most radical teachings of Advaita Vedanta (non-duality), it is intended for advanced seekers, not beginners. Key warnings and points made by Swami Sarvapriyananda include:

• Danger of Misinterpretation: Because the text asserts that the self is already free and that the world is non-existent, a beginner might mistakenly believe they can ignore moral, ethical, and spiritual discipline, leading to spiritual arrogance or "immeasurable harm".
• Not for Beginners: It is for those who are already prepared—those who have purified their minds and are mature enough to understand the "dangerous" truth that the ego is a myth.
• Misunderstanding "Already Free": The text insists that "you are already that" (free/enlightened), but premature application of this philosophy without spiritual practice (sadhana) can lead to a misunderstanding of one's actual state.
• The Power of the Truth: It is likened to a "sharp razor" or a powerful medicine, meant to destroy the ego completely, which is a process that requires maturity.
• Don't Rush into It: While it is a beautiful work on non-dual meditation, it should not be rushed into before establishing a solid spiritual foundation. 

He advises that, despite the radical non-duality taught in the Gita, one should never give up the structure of spiritual life or disregard the importance of discipline until true, abiding self-realization is achieved. 


Here is a link to one of his talk's on The Ashtavakra Gita where his warning starts around the 28 min mark;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUdsUMNnzE&t=1695s


and here is a humorous talk given by a controversial figure on the same subject worth watching (I nearly spat out my beer I laughed so hard ;-). The fun starts around the 7 min mark;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHaRmaLrhGA


Adi Da Samraj wrote The Scapegoat Book, a brilliant free rendering of what may well be our planet’s most profound traditional spiritual text, the Ashtavakra Gita. Here is a link for those who may wish to delve further into that unpublished text and the games the ego plays to maintain it's stranglehold, especially when it's tyranny becomes threatened by a direct practice such as vichara;

https://dharmacafe.com/spiritual-heroes/The-Worlds-Greatest-Unpublished-Spiritual-Book/full/#:~:text=Adi%20Da%20Samraj%20wrote%20The%20Scapegoat%20Book%2C,most%20profound%20traditional%20spiri tual%20text%2C%20the%20Ashtavakra

For those that would like a detailed explanation of vichara, here is a link to a free pdf download of Happiness and the Art of Being by Michael James which is an excellent resource. Chapter 10, The Practice of the Art of Being covers many important aspects of the practice, as well as addressing common misunderstandings;

https://www.sriramanateachings.org/Happiness_and_the_Art_of_Being.pdf