Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

[Shadowman]

This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is.

Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply.

Now, what is missing from the above description of the direct experience of enlightenment?

It is the pronoun, I, for in truth there is no I, either relatively or absolutely. I implies a separation from totality, as the first person singular. Whereas the adjective Self, implies being the same throughout, as the self evident united reality/totality/all that is, and is more appropriate at hinting towards the truth.

You are in reality this Self, all else is illusion.
Relatively, this is the end of suffering. This is the beginning of endless bliss.
Absolutely, all suffering is unreal. Only the blissful Self is real.
This is the eternal Truth.


Edit to add on 2/5/12

Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response, preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

With Love/Namaste
tim

PS To clarify the definition of enlightenment, in the context that the term is applied in the title of this thread, an examination of the following links may prove helpful, for those with more than just a casual interest;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_%28spiritual%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_realization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Ten_Epithets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_%28concept%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata

[Godiam]

Nothing Real Can Be Threatened,
Nothing Unreal Exists!
Therein Lies The Peace Of GOD!!

From A Course In Miracles!

HUGS...........Godiam

[Jenci]

Thank you, Tim.

Succint....I like it :)

A simple, uncluttered and uncomplicated description.

Jeanette

[markpierre]

Yes yes yes. That was really really good! That's a good solid attempt to explain the unexplainable. I'm sure he was laughing when he wrote it.
Even a minute of that experience changes everything about you.

But it's only not explainable because it's so personal, and so not what you'd think. How do you express how simple and how ordinary reality is? It's ordinary because something is finally real. It's normal to be in joy. Nothing opposes it.
It's normal to be free. There is no such thing as not free. Your Self is an experience of that, not an identity. Your experience of everything is of knowing it. But as soon as you begin to observe and interpret and analyze again it's gone.
So you see you make a choice in how you think, not what you think but 'how'.
And realize that you hadn't made a choice to be 'enlightened' or whatever term you like,
because you were just full of ideas and could never have known.
It's the one single thing that you couldn't have imagined was your hearts only desire, that had never left you.

But here's the thing that messes with the conditioned mind; you're still you, and your outer life might not change in any regard.

So now that you know all about it, is it attractive enough? What would you exchange for that?

[jorr lundstrom]

This is a picture taken of an event................

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/blsippa.jpg

Endless, nah........

Eternal, well.........

All is well


Jorr

[greybeard]

All that can be said is--- thanks for firsthand sharing Tim.
Almost said "by "ME"
The pronoun is becoming redundant.

Chris

[meeradas]

So now that you know all about it, is it attractive enough? What would you exchange for that?

Ev'rything.

[markpierre]

So now that you know all about it, is it attractive enough? What would you exchange for that?

Ev'rything.

I believe you.

You know how devastation tends to sort out the value of things? I don't advocate devastation because I don't believe that it's necessary.
But devastation isn't a problem, recovering is a problem. Don't recover.

[RedeZra]

and the absolute Self is realized


Self is Spirit is God


saints and sages are immersed in Spirit

while men are immersed in mind


it is the grace of God that turn men into saints


what most men think of as Self is just self or mind

imaginations


God is in complete control

and there is nothin we can do about it


mind must go if Self is to be realized

[Sebastion]

You have to be willing to give it all up only to get it all back in the end...

[Oouthere]

Samadhi is what breaks us free from so many lies. Even though I had my experiences some decades ago I'll disagree on a couple of points.

Suffering is real while in a human mind and human consciousness, else you would have no compassion when you see someone that is suffering. You care to walk by a child with a bone sticking through the skin and tell him/her that it does not hurt and continue walking on your way?

Also, I may be taking this incorrectly but while in the experience (at least mine), there was not an overpowering love involved....you simply were God (all that is, ever was, and ever will be). You are the most hideous creature that ever existed or will exist, .......plus you are the highest saint. To take only the love portion of an experience means you fail to see the contrasting parts as well. God is not only good, but it is evil as well.

Rich

[markpierre]

To take only the love portion of an experience means you fail to see the contrasting parts as well. God is not only good, but it is evil as well.

Rich

So how do you separate love from the rest of totality, so that you can take only that portion?

Love IS dispassionate, or you couldn't accept evil. Evil is just a mistaken idea.

[East Sun]

"God brings good and evil" is stated in the OT somewhere. But after a lifetime of searching I now believe that we were created by the "gods" mentioned in the OT and Sumerian tablets and other places.

But what created them and all of creation. There's no way of knowing that. If we spoke with the advanced celestial ancestors they might have some idea, or not, as even they can not know endless space and time. imo.

There is evil in existence and may be a creation of our consciousness or just inevitable which is easy to see. Our concern is to end it to the extent that we can, or at least give it our best shot.

P.S. Or maybe nothing was created and everything came about and comes about through an always-was force that just set off reproduction and cycles in everything. And one somewhat intelligent group set itself up as being superior to other groups and so it goes on with life teeming is unending space.

[RedeZra]

"God brings good and evil" is stated in the OT somewhere. But after a lifetime of searching I now believe that we were created by the "gods" mentioned in the OT and Sumerian tablets and other places.


God of the OT used both the Assyrians and later the Babylonians to humble His people

so the lesson is that when men choose to forget God and follow their own minds

then men will descend into unrighteousness

which is not at all pleasin to God


the gods of old are fallen finite spirits

and they made some hybrids with humans


and it is possible that the PTB are hybrids

in league with their fathers the fallen spirits


but we are not all hybrids

most are human

[markpierre]

"God brings good and evil" is stated in the OT somewhere. But after a lifetime of searching I now believe that we were created by the "gods" mentioned in the OT and Sumerian tablets and other places.


God of the OT used both the Assyrians and later the Babylonians to humble His people

so the lesson is that when men choose to forget God and follow their own minds

then men will descend into unrighteousness

which is not at all pleasin to God


the gods of old are fallen finite spirits

and they made some hybrids with humans


and it is possible that the PTB are hybrids

in league with their fathers the fallen spirits


but we are not all hybrids

most are human

You can personify it and call it God if you like. But in that particular example you can also call it cause and effect or karma. Nothing real that was ever seemingly 'fallen' has ever been in anything other than a state of return.

[Oouthere]

Hiya Mark,

If you separate love from the rest of totality....it is simply love and not God as a whole (or not as God is everything that is and is not). I don't believe love is dispassionate, imo it is the highest attribute of God. And even if evil is a mistaken idea it is also part of god but in that context....everything is God.

Rich

[minkton]

Any members here who consider themselves to be enlightened?

[another bob]

Enlightenment is fully appreciating the fact that there is no such thing as enlightenment.

No human has ever been enlightened, nor are we here to "get enlightened".

We're here to learn how to do the right thing (imho).

:yo:

[RedeZra]

You can personify it and call it God if you like. But in that particular example you can also call it cause and effect or karma. Nothing real that was ever seemingly 'fallen' has ever been in anything other than a state of return.


i'm sure there is intelligence behind karma dispensation


i view God as the Almighty Spirit

imperial impartial but not unpersonal


fallen spirits and demons are as real as the angels and us

they fell as low as they were heigh in the spiritual hierarchy


they knew God and still they chose to rebel

[gripreaper]

fallen spirits and demons are as real as the angels and us

they fell as low as they were high in the spiritual hierarchy

Hierarchical power structures, also known as pyramid schemes, are set up so that all of the wealth and resources flow to the few at the top, while those at the bottom struggle and compete for the scarcity which is implicit in such a design. Also implicit in this design, is that those who are competing with their brethren need to adopt the mandates of those at the top of the pyramid, and surrender their will and power to them.

To say that the spiritual realms are set up hierarchically, is derived from the same elite power mongers who wrote such a patriarchal pyramid into their instruction book, the bible, at the Roman Elite Council of Nicaea, and designed it to propagate their hierarchical power pyramid, which has nothing to do with spirituality, enlightenment, or unity with the divine in all things.

Fallen angels and spirits means that these souls fell from the top of the power pyramid and needed to subjugate themselves to those at the top in order to redeem their place in the hierarchy? I think not. BOTH polarities of light and dark, Yin and Yang, positive and negative, male and female, left and right etc. are part of the universal matrix of all things and to judge such energies as "evil" and separate only serves the patriarchal structure which has spent eon's trying to sell us that the opposite is to be severed from the whole and that the higher dimensions are hierarchical.

That is a lie in my opinion, and I'm not afraid to expose it for what it is

[RedeZra]

fallen spirits and demons are as real as the angels and us

they fell as low as they were high in the spiritual hierarchy


Fallen angels and spirits means that these souls fell from the top of the power pyramid and needed to subjugate themselves to those at the top in order to redeem their place in the hierarchy?


there is a hierarchy in Heaven and God is at the Top

there is a hierarchy in Hell and the devil is at the top


there is a hierarchy in our world and the devil is at the top

but we don't have to serve him


we got choice

[gripreaper]

there is a hierarchy in Heaven and God is at the Top

there is a hierarchy in Hell and the devil is at the top

there is a hierarchy in our world and the devil is at the top

but we don't have to serve him, we got choice

This thread is about Enlightenment, a direct and succinct account of what occurs. The context implicit in this references the ability for each of us to exercise our free will to choose and to go within and access that power. To go within and find the still point and the state of peace and joy, without abrogating our power or adhering to religious dogma. Also implicit in this context, is the lack of divisiveness, separation, and any systems or structures which are designed to subjugate or enslave the individual in belief systems, or the need for outside intervention, either through saviors, blood sacrifices, abrogation of one’s power, or rules and regulations.

Implicit in the religious paradigm is the notion that we are damaged goods, fallen from grace and severed from spirit, in need of redemption which can only be achieved through subjugation to this hierarchical pyramid of yours, an abrogation of one’s personal will and it concert with the patriarchal structure.

You could not even take one breath or one step severed from source, and the Hegelian dialectic of “divide and conquer” has no place in spiritual enlightenment, or the context of this thread. Severing the opposite energies from source falls into this dialectic, and is implicit in hierarchy. I will say it again, there is no hierarchy is spirit. All is one and in unity, without duality or separation, or divisiveness.

You have your own thread called “the Bible” where you can discuss the context of your hierarchical pyramid scheme, and to come in here and try to hijack this thread and change the context of the discussion rubs me the wrong way. Sorry to be so blunt, but this thread is about enlightenment, not about discussing religious dogma couched in the shroud of spirituality.

[RedeZra]

This thread is about Enlightenment

i'm sorry but you don't get enlightenment

it's a gift from God

[Beren]

So now that you know all about it, is it attractive enough? What would you exchange for that?

Ev'rything.

This reminds me of a story from Christ about a man who sells everything in order to buy this property where he found the treasure...
This is our true treasure and that`s what was meant when spoken about building your treasure in heaven...

[markpierre]

Hiya Mark,

If you separate love from the rest of totality....it is simply love and not God as a whole (or not as God is everything that is and is not). I don't believe love is dispassionate, imo it is the highest attribute of God. And even if evil is a mistaken idea it is also part of god but in that context....everything is God.

Rich

The point is you can't separate it. You can't be an observer without disengaging from it. And real love is dispassionate, so is compassion. The experience of it will modify your opinion. But you can't do that willingly until you recognize that 'passion' has an agenda,
though you can experience it and you probably have.
Human love is an emotion. It demands an outcome. That's how you're able to distinguish between desirable and undesirable. Love the 'evil' that plays it's part in the adjustment of mind from time to eternity.
'God' couldn't recognize itself as part evil, that's what dualistic is. That's what we're trying to adjust. You can't adjust it if you won't accept it as a barrier.
Speaking of what we're willing to sacrifice to enter into totality, that's a good example.

[another bob]

I was in 17th century Europe, and apparently was involved in a furious saber duel with an opponent in some sort of endgame in the midst of a larger conflict. The thrusts, slicing, and paring had been going on for a while, and we both had gashes and cuts, and were nearing exhaustion. Still, I was confident of the outcome, and I could see desperation growing in his eyes. Suddenly, I was he, looking at what had just been me! We both paused for a long moment, staring into each other's eyes, with the dawning recognition that neither one of us were what we had presumed, and that there was something beyond comprehension going on here - something like just one being, playing two roles simultaneously!

I had hardly begun to come to terms with this realization when I found myself in some indeterminate time, somewhere in Asia, in the midst of some kind of Tantric sexual ritual. I was seated in a lotus posture, while an incredibly beautiful and serene "goddess" sat astride me, coupling in barely perceptible but excruciatingly pleasurable genital motions which vibrated throughout my entire being, igniting an inner flame which rose from the base up my spine and eventually out through the top of my head, where her complimentary flame melted in mine, and we were engulfed in radiant white light.

This seemed endless, until I opened my eyes and realized that I was the female, looking into the eyes of the male I had been, and I was filled with his/my organ, and I was holding him in the arms of my heart with unbearable love and surrender, and tears were flowing down my cheeks at the beauty of our union.

I was about to cry out in an urgent mounting ecstasy, when suddenly I was in a sedan, and it was 1922 (for some reason I remember that date?), and my companion/guide was telling me to observe the dream-like nature of this existence. I had no argument by this time, and then I was told to notice this thing about death, and immediately we plunged through a railing along the Coastal Highway and calmly watched the beach and rocks several hundred feet below coming up on us as if in slow motion, until we crashed into the base of the cliff, and nothing at all had changed, except that now I was in some sort of prison yard, being circled by a gang of grinning sociopaths.

There was no escape, and soon I was being beaten to a bloody pulp, but curiously felt no pain, and after awhile, I realized I had to get up and go to the bathroom. When I returned to bed, I found myself in an urgent rush to make a 2 PM flight from San Francisco to Boston, but I kept getting interrupted on my way to the airport by an odd collection of characters. When I finally got to the check-in desk, an attendant told me that I had missed my flight, and must attend a 2-hour seminar on being late for flights, followed by a test to make sure I undestood just how irresponsible I had been. When I questioned the fellow on whether he was an actual airline employee, he said "No."

Feeling a bit flustered, I decided to go to the bar and await the next flight out, but when I got there, all the patrons were meditating in a lovely garden-like setting. Strange and beautiful flowers were gently swaying in a breeze from some indeterminate source, and somehow it was communicated to me that all the patrons were Siddhas, and together they were in the process of creating whole galaxies on the causal plane. I was very happy with this turn of events, and stayed there for what seemed like an eternity, but when I got up to make tea, I found myself in my own kitchen, and realized intuitively that I had not won the Mega Millions lottery.

Now I seem to be typing out this post, and my question for the readers of this thread would be: which one of these characters gets enlightened?

[Oouthere]

Funny thing is...if you sacifice everything then everything is given....lol

Rich

[Beren]

Funny thing is...if you sacifice everything then everything is given....lol

Rich

Exactly!
It takes a moment of absolute trust for you to leap in. Rest is history.

[Shadowman]

I'm sure he was laughing when he wrote it. - markpierre

Hi Mark,

This was written whilst in a state approaching the Absolute. As nothing separate can be expressed whilst fully absorbed in Reality, just enough of the relative self was engaged to communicate the awakening as clearly as possible, with the least “interference” from the relative mind. Hence it took approx 3 hours to type. To an outside observer, I would have looked like a blissed out monkey at the keyboard, lol.

Thankyou for your excellent comments. Many speak from what they have learned or read, rather than realized. It is clear you speak of that which you have realized.

what most men think of as Self is just self or mind imaginations
mind must go if Self is to be realized - RedeZra

Hi Rez,

Excellent, this happens exactly ultimately, but in the earlier stages, one need only not identify with thoughts. As Being or Awareness moves to the forefront, thoughts diminish spontaneously.

Suffering is real while in a human mind and human consciousness, else you would have no compassion when you see someone that is suffering. You care to walk by a child with a bone sticking through the skin and tell him/her that it does not hurt and continue walking on your way?
Also, I may be taking this incorrectly but while in the experience (at least mine), there was not an overpowering love involved - Oouthere

Hi Oouthere,

Yes, suffering is relatively real while you are dreaming you are “in” a human mind. Absolutely however it is unreal, for you never really were a separate entity. It is like when you have a nightmare. The suffering is very real while you dream, but when you awaken, you see it was just a dream.

Absolute love, which occurs at enlightenment, and which is manifest in the continuing relative expression, ie in my case “tim”, until the complete absorption in the Self (transcendence/ascension to heaven/mahasamadhi/etc), acts in harmony with the totality. It loves all for it is all. So it would “assist” the injured child in the most appropriate way.

But the greatest assistance is to inspire “others” to awaken. Mind is the root of suffering, so why trim the branches (which grow back), when you can cut the root. True healing is spiritual, physical healing is temporary.

Enlightenment is fully appreciating the fact that there is no such thing as enlightenment.
No human has ever been enlightened, nor are we here to "get enlightened".
We're here to learn how to do the right thing (imho). - another bob

Hi Bob,

Your first sentence is true in the absolute sense, your real Self cannot become enlightened, for it is that already, but in a relative sense, we are dealing with “individuals”, who “attain” enlightenment when the illusory ego, a creation of the mind, dissolves.

To mix absolute and relative terminology can be confusing for “those” still caught up in the dream of separate identity. The aim of the OP is to clarify the true state of awakening from direct experience for those earnestly and genuinely seeking it. Much confusion arises in religion/spirituality from teachers whose understanding is based on knowledge instead of realization ie Nicodemus (John Ch 3) Gripreapers excellent comments cover this beautifully.

Absolutely we are not “here” and there is no “right” thing. But yes, relatively there is a right and wrong, hence enlightened teachers counsel those who have yet to awaken to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” - Yeshua, or for more advanced seekers “those others, they are you” - Siddhartha

Namaste
tim

[another bob]

Hi Bob,

Your first sentence is true in the absolute sense, your real Self cannot become enlightened, for it is that already, but in a relative sense, we are dealing with “individuals”, who “attain” enlightenment when the illusory ego, a creation of the mind, dissolves.



Hiya Tim!

I wasn't just talking about the absolute sense, but it is true even in the relative sense. No human beings have ever attained enlightenment. Even in the Buddhist scriptures, you will find that Sakyamuni Buddha did not awaken here, but on another world in a higher dimension, and what appeared here was more like an avatar in a video game. No foolin'! Those great beings to whom we attribute such attainment actually came in with their lights already on, so to speak. This is not that kind of place -- it's a stage filled with props on which we are performing. That's why all this fuss about enlightenment is so silly, and actually distracting from what we're really about.
Once on the so-called other side, a few notches up in awareness, and this will become self-evident. In fact, the world of which you are now aware is just as unreal as the world in which you dream. You may believe you have some sense of this, but you don't. You can't.
We did not incarnate in this realm to get enlightened, but to have the experience of being human. In the midst of that experience, we need to learn how to behave, and not to go chasing some second-hand concept of enlightenment. Enlightenment is what we already are, but we submit to a kind of amnesia in order for the human experience to seem real. We are not even human beings, but rather, as extensions of Source, we occupy human vehicles in order to acquire certain experiences that are particular to humans, and that Source wishes to enjoy.

I could go into a lot more detail, but maybe that's enough to chew on for now.

:yo:

[jorr lundstrom]

Well, after reading many words, a little relaxation maybe, enjoy. LOL




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6VaeFCxta8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6VaeFCxta8

All is well


Jorr

[Shadowman]

I wasn't just talking about the absolute sense, but it is true even in the relative sense. No human beings have ever attained enlightenment. Even in the Buddhist scriptures, you will find that Sakyamuni Buddha did not awaken here, but on another world in a higher dimension, and what appeared here was more like an avatar in a video game. No foolin'! Those great beings to whom we attribute such attainment actually came in with their lights already on, so to speak. - bob

Hi Bob,

From here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha#Enlightenment

According to the early Buddhist texts,[39] after realizing that meditative jhana was the right path to awakening, but that extreme asceticism didn't work, Gautama discovered what Buddhists call the Middle Way[39]—a path of moderation away from the extremes of self-indulgence and self-mortification.[39] In a famous incident, after becoming starved and weakened, he is said to have accepted milk and rice pudding from a village girl named Sujata.[40] Such was his emaciated appearance that she wrongly believed him to be a spirit that had granted her a wish.[40]

Following this incident, Gautama was famously seated under a pipal tree—now known as the Bodhi tree—in Bodh Gaya, India, when he vowed never to arise until he had found the truth.[41] Kaundinya and four other companions, believing that he had abandoned his search and become undisciplined, left. After a reputed 49 days of meditation, at the age of 35, he is said to have attained Enlightenment.[41][42] From that time, Gautama was known to his followers as the Buddha or "Awakened One" ("Buddha" is also sometimes translated as "The Enlightened One"). He is often referred to in Buddhism as Shakyamuni Buddha, or "The Awakened One of the Shakya Clan."

According to Buddhism, at the time of his awakening he realized complete insight into the cause of suffering, and the steps necessary to eliminate it. These discoveries became known as the "Four Noble Truths",[42] which are at the heart of Buddhist teaching. Through mastery of these truths, a state of supreme liberation, or Nirvana, is believed to be possible for any being. The Buddha described Nirvāna as the perfect peace of a mind that's free from ignorance, greed, hatred and other afflictive states,[42] or "defilements" (kilesas). Nirvana is also regarded as the "end of the world", in that no personal identity or boundaries of the mind remain.

Perhaps you could share which scriptures state that Siddhartha did not awaken on this planet. It may be reasonable metaphorically to say he awakened to a higher dimension ie the undifferentiated Self, however your premise that no human being can awaken here is perhaps unhelpful to genuine seekers reading this thread.

If Siddhartha came in with his lights on, as you suggest, where was the need to practice austerities to the degree which he did, reportedly nearly starving himself to death prior to discovering the middle way?

we need to learn how to behave, and not to go chasing some second-hand concept of enlightenment. - bob

All behaviour is relative. Eating a chicken from your point of view might be right, but it is hardly right from the chicken’s point of view.

Indeed, one should not rely on second hand views concerning enlightenment. A view confirmed by Buddha;

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. - Kalama Sutta.

Which is why this thread is about a direct account of what has been experienced, not something that was read about, or learned secondhand from a teacher, etc.

Once on the so-called other side, a few notches up in awareness, and this will become self-evident. In fact, the world of which you are now aware is just as unreal as the world in which you dream. You may believe you have some sense of this, but you don't. You can't. - bob

Naturally I respect your right to believe I am mistaken, the only one you can truly confirm is enlightened is yourself.

From the direct experience of awakening it was realized there are no notches or separate levels in absolute Self/Awareness/Being, levels exist in the mind only. At least we agree that the states of waking, sleep and dreaming are transient phenomena, which come and go, as does the ego which appears as the subject within these states. All of these, however, are dependent on the substrate reality of the Self, which is realized upon attaining turiya, and resolved finally in turiyatita.

Q: Are there levels of awareness?
M: There are levels in consciousness, but not in awareness. It is of one block, homogeneous. Its reflection in the mind is love and understanding. There are levels of clarity in understanding and intensity in love, but not in their source. The source is simple and single, but its gifts are infinite. Only do not take the gifts for the source. Realize yourself as the source and not as the river; that is all. - Nisargadatta, I Am That


Now you may argue that turiya and turiyatita are different levels, however this paradox is best experienced rather than understood. This thread is meant to inspire and encourage seekers to practice their chosen path/sadhana, not to engage in philosophical, metaphysical or existential discussion.

Thanks for sharing your perspective, your views are always welcome.

[another bob]

This thread is meant to inspire and encourage seekers to practice their chosen path/sadhana, not to engage in philosophical, metaphysical or existential discussion.

Hiya Tim!

That's exactly why I offered the comments that I did, to suggest that people question the search itself!

As I previously indicated, I've left enough to chew on, and will stand by that.

PS: Just one note on Buddhism, please reference the 3 Kayas -- the Nirmanakaya being the "emanation body" of Shakyamuni Buddha, which appeared to go through a long sadhana, only to demonstrate for the sake of truth the futility of that process of seeking and mental manipulation involved in grasping for that which one already is and has always been.

Does that mean one should just give up the struggle? Well, as Sri Nisargadatta noted,

"There are no conditions to fulfill. There is nothing to be done, nothing to be given up. Just look and remember, whatever you perceive is not you, not yours. It is there in the field of your consciousness, but you are not the field and its contents, nor even the knower of the field. It is your idea that you have to do things that entangle you in the results of your efforts. The motive, the desire, the failure to achieve, the sense of frustration -- all this holds you back. Simply look at whatever happens and know that you are beyond it."

:yo:

[markpierre]

I'm sure he was laughing when he wrote it. - markpierre

Hi Mark,

This was written whilst in a state approaching the Absolute. As nothing separate can be expressed whilst fully absorbed in Reality, just enough of the relative self was engaged to communicate the awakening as clearly as possible, with the least “interference” from the relative mind. Hence it took approx 3 hours to type. To an outside observer, I would have looked like a blissed out monkey at the keyboard, lol.


So tim, that was your own direct experience. That's really exciting, I'm so glad for you, and glad to have heard it directly from the blissed out monkey himself. None of this third person BS.

I'm impressed that you found the concentration to write it out, three hours is probably doing really well.

Beautifully articulated, thank you.

My experience was spontaneous, and I had no discipline to maintain it. The last 23 years have been continually burning the dross with periods of relief, and using up identity in alternating successes and devastation.

It's probably just as tedious training the mind without the benefit of awareness, and then finally being rewarded for it. You can't know what you're trying to achieve.
If all of time was a preparation for that moment, then I guess it's just a relative thing.

The downside of the former is that once you've discovered that you're in hell, you're truly in hell. You have no choice but to build yourself a ladder and start climbing out of fear. Even if just to distract yourself.
Well, you have a choice of when.

The upside is that it's a hell of a motivator.

[greybeard]

Tim made an absolute statement in his opening post.
We can either accept that or otherwise--- I accept it.
Its not really debatable,
If our thinking is based on a false premise then all the knowledge in the world unfortunately is colored by the false premise.
My thoughts and I open to be corrected is that--- the caterpillar, having become the butterfly, is in an entirely different state.
I call that enlightenment.
There is no human-being after the event-- there is just awareness-- even the word awareness does not suffice but its best I can do.
The body and persona carry on as before and that is deceiving.
Karma has a certain momentum.
I believe that we are in the university of life in order to evolve.
When the state of enlightenment has occurred-- this class is over/job done.

Chris

[markpierre]

[COLOR="red"]I will attempt to respond to comments as time permits, but would appreciate if the following was taken into consideration. If you could only ask an enlightened being one question what would that be?
Namaste
tim

LOL. Coffee, or tea?

[minkton]

I have a question to ask an enlightened master. It's entirely selfish, based entirely on my own situation.

How would enlightenment assist me in the daily task of enduring relentless astral sexual and psychic harassment, in which I am deprived of sleep, subject to brainwashing attempts, subtle body manipulation, mood manipulation, etc etc etc.

How does knowing I am living a dream, and that in this dream I am being stalked and mentally tortured..... how does this help me?

How much equanimity is it possible to cultivate?

[greybeard]

One false premise is that I am an individual, a body/mind.
That totally colors my world and my thought process.
Its all about "ME"
However!!!
No self-- no problem.
I really shouldn't put my thoughts though on this thread.
Pronouns pronouns.
I wish the "I" would take a vacation, a permanent one.

Chris

[minkton]

One false premise is that I am an individual, a body/mind.
That totally colors my world and my thought process.
Its all about "ME"
However!!!
No self-- no problem.
I really shouldn't put my thoughts though on this thread.
Pronouns pronouns.
I wish the "I" would take a vacation, a permanent one.

Chris
Hi Chris. So you dont really inhabit your body, on a day to day basis, or your mind? So that if you were in pain or mentally abused you feel you would barely notice?

[another bob]

When the state of enlightenment has occurred-- this class is over/job done.

Hiya Chris!

We don't need more definitions of enlightenment -- they're a dime a dozen, and people's minds are already overburdened with enough concepts and notions in that regard. What we actualy need are more demonstrations of enlightenment, but those are still pretty rare.

Moreover, even by classical standards, what was described in the OP does equate with real liberation. Rather, it merely represents another fixation of identity in some sort of cosmic Self. Both self and Self need to be recognized as fantasies of interpretation on perception, with no inherent reality. Both fictions need to be penetrated for liberation to begin to dawn, and even that is not enough -- unless it is fully integrated and embodied in the way we act and relate in the world, it remains conceptual and rather impotent.

Over the years, I've seen many who have had some sort of "spiritual" experience, and immediately turn around and claim enlightenment. If they're fortunate, they'll find a real master with whom they can test their realization. Invariably, a few minutes face to face with such a master will serve to disabuse them of their new self-image, saving them years of wandering around in delusion. Those not so fortunate will end up believing their own propaganda, since the mind can easily co-opt even profound realizations, reveling in how enlightened it now is, and how it has transcended itself. Those are usually the hardest to reach, since they're convinced that their job is over.

[another bob]

I wish the "I" would take a vacation, a permanent one.

There's nothing wrong with the "I", it's a wonderful navigation device that helps us to stop on red and go on green-- it's just fixating on it that creates the problem, making it the master rather than the servant.

:yo:

[greybeard]

Hi another bob
I cant agree or disagree as I dont know.
But its through voicing thoughts that I get corrected.
Regards Chris

[another bob]

Hi another bob
I cant agree or disagree as I dont know.
But its through voicing thoughts that I get corrected.
Regards Chris

"The 'I' casts off the illusion of 'I' and yet remains as 'I'. Such is the paradox of Self-realization. The realized do not see any contradiction in it."

~Sri Ramana Maharshi


:yo:

[Shadowman]

I have a question to ask an enlightened master. It's entirely selfish, based entirely on my own situation.

How would enlightenment assist me in the daily task of enduring relentless astral sexual and psychic harassment, in which I am deprived of sleep, subject to brainwashing attempts, subtle body manipulation, mood manipulation, etc etc etc.

How does knowing I am living a dream, and that in this dream I am being stalked and mentally tortured..... how does this help me?

How much equanimity is it possible to cultivate?

Hi minkton,

Enlightenment would bring the realization that it is your body/mind/ego which is the “separate” subject or “victim” of astral, sexual or psychic harassment, and that this body/mind/ego is not who you really are. The paradox is that it is the ego which dreams of being the predator or the prey, and yet it is unreal.

Duality or the world, and all that goes along with it, only appears as real from the ego’s point of view. From your true Self’s “point of view” there is no separation, no ego and no harassment.

So when “you” say;

I have a question….
How would enlightenment assist me…
I am deprived of sleep…
I am living in a dream…

All these thoughts or statements appear in the mind and are claimed as my thoughts by the ego.

To attain freedom simply sit quietly for as long as you are comfortable each day and practice detached awareness of these thoughts without identifying with them. Slowly, slowly it will become apparent that all thoughts and emotions and pains and pleasures come and go, but that the field of awareness in which they appear does not come and go. This is the first step to slaying the dragon/ego.

As your identity shifts from body/mind/ego to pure awareness, it is accompanied by a tremendous energy and inner peace. Then you will realize rather than understand the meaning of post 2 in this thread by Godiam;

Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists.

Or these

Do not resist evil…. (to resist reinforces the illusion of separation and ego)
What is the sound of one hand clapping….(there is no sound or conflict in what is whole)

Gengis Khan (ego/worldy power) to monk;

“Don’t you know I can cut off your head without so much as blinking an eye?”

monk (Self/spiritual power) to Genghis Khan;

“Don’t you know I can sit here while you cut off my head without so much as blinking an eye?”

Another thing that you notice as your energy increases is synchronicities or meaningful coincidences. For instance within 15 mins of your post your dilemma was responded to by the Totality via Chris in post 38. Chris pointed out succinctly your solution, which I have put somewhat more verbosely above, lol. (love your work Chris :) )

When the student is ready the master/answer appears.
But the student has to recognize the answer/master!

As long as you cling to the belief that you "inhabit" the body/mind it will seem to be your identity.

Minkton I am telling you the truth, you are not the ego or body or mind. You are the Supreme Being or Self in which these passing phenomena appear

One last suggestion. Use whomever or whatever is harassing you as a stepping stone to attain unconditional love. Just send them love. A spiritual warrior does not seek pain, but when it comes he/she uses it to grow in love. When you can love your enemies just as well as your friends you will know freedom from the ego.

Gandhi’s last act was to namaste his assassin, or so I have heard.

All the best in meeting your challenge and remember;

Only love conquers hate
Hate cannot conquer hate
This is the law
Ancient and universal. - Buddha

[Shadowman]

Moreover, even by classical standards, what was described in the OP does equate with real liberation. Rather, it merely represents another fixation of identity in some sort of cosmic Self. Both self and Self need to be recognized as fantasies of interpretation on perception, with no inherent reality. Both fictions need to be penetrated for liberation to begin to dawn, and even that is not enough -- unless it is fully integrated and embodied in the way we act and relate in the world, it remains conceptual and rather impotent. -anotherbob


Hi bob,

You may choose to disagree that I have realized rather than believe I am Self, but I was using the term Self in the OP, as in Self realization, in the same way as Ramana and Nisargadatta;

“The scriptures serve to indicate the existence of the Higher
Power or Self and to point the way to It. That is their essential
purpose. Apart from that they are useless.

The intricate maze of philosophy of the various schools is
said to clarify matters and to reveal the Truth, but in fact it
creates confusion where none need exist. To understand
anything there must be the Self. The Self is obvious, so why not
remain as the Self? What need to explain the non-self?”

- Ramana Maharshi


Q: If my real self is peace and love, why is it so restless?
M: It is not your real being that is restless, but its reflection in
the mind appears restless because the mind is restless. It is just
like the reflection of the moon in the water stirred by the wind.
The wind of desire stirs the mind and the ‘me’, which is but a reflection
of the Self in the mind, appears changeful. But these
ideas of movement, of restlessness, of pleasure and pain are all
in the mind. The Self stands beyond the mind, aware, but unconcerned.
Q: How to reach it?
M: You are the Self, here and now. Leave the mind alone, stand
aware and unconcerned and you will realize that to stand alert
but detached, watching events come and go, is an aspect of
your real nature.

- Nisargadatta responding to questions.

So in that context your assertion that the Self has no inherent reality, is erroneous and misleading to those on the path.

My OP also made clear that the realization was predicated on the relative self dissolving, like a shadow exposed to the true light of awareness, which is an apt metaphor to explain what is paradoxical and easily prone to misinterpretation. Where then is the fixation of relative identity in the cosmic self, when there is no separate relative identity left to fixate?

Is it your contention that Ramana and Nisargadatta did not, as humans, realize enlightenment on this planet, like Buddha, and do you think they also, as great beings, came in with there lights on?

You said both fictions need to be penetrated for liberation to begin to dawn. Penetrated by who? Do not Ramana and Nisargadatta point out The Self never was bound, never did need to “learn how to behave”, or integrate or embody itself into an illusory separate world?

The “I” might be a great navigating device in duality, but believing it to be a separate real entity is a barrier to Self realization.

In short, in response to Ramana’s timeless question - Who am I, how would you answer bob?

Thanks for expressing your views,

[jcocks]

Now I seem to be typing out this post, and my question for the readers of this thread would be: which one of these characters gets enlightened?

That's an easy one : All of them!

Part of enlightenment is not passing judgement on a given situation....

[David Hughes]

Hey Tim,

Great explanation in that opening post, nail on head for me.

Could you elaborate on the circumstances surrounding your moment of awakening/enlightenment? I had an experience in Greece about a decade ago that pretty much matches your explanation exactly.

Thanks for the thread.

[Shadowman]

hey tim,
i love your explanation in the opening post, nail on head for me....
could i get you to elaborate on the circumstances surrounding your moment of awakening/enlightenment?
i had an experience in greece about a decade ago that pretty much matches your explanation exactly.....
ive never really talked about it in any great detail to anyone, largely because i have met precious few people in my walk of life
who understand the truths you talk about in your opening post.....
being dealt a hand like that in a world/reality like this carries alot of responsibility........
thanks for the thread

Hi Tyler,

You’re most welcome and thanks for your sharing.

I had my first glimpse of infinitely expanded pure awareness while meditating at at 8 yrs of age, it only lasted about an hour or so. I turned away from organized religion throughout my teens, it seemed to be based in guilt and fear which didn't resonate with me. I privately studied comparitive religions in my 20's ie most major faiths, before diving into different forms of meditation. Had an extended awakening at 28 which lasted a few weeks, and incorporated a number of phenomena associated with awakening.

I’ve had several extended satori's since, each lasting a few to several weeks, as I learned to manage the associated effects on the body and mind which accompany this heightened state of awareness. Culminating in a satori from Sept 2010 to 5th Nov 2010 when the shift from pure awareness, or the witness state (Turiya/Satori), to the realization of Advaita/Self/Heaven/Nirvana/Turiyatita/Daigo or whatever else others wish to call it, happened. No words can do it justice, it is profound beyond expression. I shan’t go into details as to the phenomena that accompanied this final awakening, as I’m sure it’s different for each person, and I don’t want to confuse people further.

Total immersion in this state means communication in duality would not be possible, but while “I” now express, as I put it, as both the ocean and the wave, the realization paradoxically remains. It is kind of like lucid dreaming, once you awaken within the dream, the dream, and your dream ego/character continue, but there is the ever present realization you are in reality the dreamer/Self.

The boundless love and compassion that accompanies this awakening sadly does not confer the omniscient intellectual capacity to describe it or assist others to realize it. Like you I have throughout my journey attempted to share what happened with others, including some of the more interesting paranormal phenomena. I quickly learned to appreciate renowned psychiatrist Dr Mack’s definition of crazy :

“It’s not knowing who to tell, or not to tell, what you’re experiencing.”

Dr John E Mack is the Harvard professor of psychiatry, and pulitzer prize winning author who widely publicized the alien abduction phenomena.

“If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" - John 3:12

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." - Matt 7:6

My aim in “coming out”, lol , as it were, is to help others understand;

1 All religions in essence are the same ie Nirvana, Heaven, Mahasamadhi, Turiyatita, Enlightenment, etc are just different perspectives in the mind of the same realization in actuality.

2 You don’t have to be special, or saintly, or chosen to awaken. Any human being can awaken, regardless of your background/race/intelligence/age/sex.

3 You don’t need to pay anyone a single dollar to awaken.

4 You don’t need to join any particular belief system or religion to awaken.

5 You don’t need a middleman/priest, you can find out the truth directly.

6 You don’t need special clothes, or postures, or diet, to awaken.

7 You don’t need to read any particular book or learn any particular philosophy.

8 You already have, and have always had, all you need for the journey home ie your Being. (lol, you are a human being, not a human doing, yes?)

9 The awakened state is freedom from suffering, freedom from death and freedom to love "others" absolutely and unconditionally.

10 You already are, and always have been, that which you seek. All separation is illusion.

The main masters which have inspired my journey (in no particular order) are Jesus, Lao Tzu, Siddhartha Gautama, Osho, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta, Sosan, Gangaji, Papaji and John Sherman. I'm no doubt forgetting many others.

Lol, not to mention, Bugs Bunny, Winnie the Pooh, Jonathan Livingston Seagull and Chang (the great gull), Obi-Wan, Yoda, Kwai Chang Caine, Bashar, Seth, Bartholomew, Lazaris, Gary Larson, Homer Simpson, Maxwell Smart etc, etc, ad infinitum.

Oh my, I must include that perfect archetype duo of the ego and God, Wile E Coyote - Genius (mind/ego/desire/repeated deaths) and The Road Runner (effortless/carefree/faster than light, lol)

Tyler, I’ve probably gone beyond the scope of your question, but other readers may wish to know a little about my background so I’m sure you’ll forgive me for that,

Namaste/Cheers/Kind Regards

tim


Below are some links to clarify satori and daigo for those interested.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29

[Shadowman]

Hi bob,

You haven't yet responded to the question in the above post, reproduced below. I was not being facetious or disingenuous in asking. I am genuinely interested in how you would answer, preferably from your own direct experience, rather than utilizing quotes from other sources, much as I have attempted to do in the OP. You obviously have delved into the matter deeply, and an account of your own self realization, or whatever other terms you prefer to use, would be greatly appreciated as a valuable contribution to this thread. As Jenci suggested;

If we didn't have people talking about their awakening and enlightenment, then many of us would be lost.........or worse, stuck where were are, thinking we had reached the destination."

It may be that what have appeared to me as contradictory statements on your behalf, may just in fact be semantic misunderstandings on my behalf of your chosen contexts? Which is why I sort clarification on some of your statements ie Buddha's enlightenment on another planet, and whether you believed the same to be the case with Ramana and Nisargadatta. Or that all great beings come in with their lights on, so to speak.

I look forward to reading your own account, should you choose to share it, and I trust you do not feel I am being contentious in seeking clarification to some of your statements. Your views are always appreciated. Here's Ramana's Q then,

In short, in response to Ramana’s timeless question - Who am I, how would you answer bob?

[another bob]

In short, in response to Ramana’s timeless question - Who am I, how would you answer bob?

Hiya Tim!

I have already answered the first time you asked.


:yo:

[Shadowman]

Hi bob,

The question was first posed in post #45 above and repeated in post #49. If you feel I posed it earlier could you say which post I asked and which post you responded, to save myself and others from re-reading through and guessing?

Also you don't appear to have responded to my query in post #45 re Ramana and Nisargadatta. Do you say they, like Buddha, were enlightened on another planet, and arrived on this planet "with their lights on"? And do you feel that is the case with all those on this planet that are/were Self realized/Enlightened?

Also, if there is a thread where you share your own personal journey, could you provide a link, it may help me to better understand where you are coming from, Cheers, tim

PS No need to provide a link to your personal threads, your freetransliterations and photo gallery
provide sufficient insight into your "perspective" and mode of expression. Given that we must use relative language to discuss the absolute there are bound to be apparent inconsistencies and misunderstandings.

For instance it could be equally interpreted that in the absolute sense the "I" that asked "you" Ramana's "who am I" question was itself the answer "you" referred to as having been provided the "first" time "I" asked. Or perhaps you simply meant I had posed that question, either directly or indirectly in an earlier post or on another thread.

But I was asking from a relative perspective as to how "bob" would answer, as you seem to feel you are in a position to dismiss or assess correctly whether another's claim to awakening is indeed valid, perhaps prematurely. For my part there is no such judgement of whether "you" are Self realized, even in light of some odd statements. And whilst it is of no consequence to a Buddha what you may or may not think, perhaps the compassion which moves us as Bodhisattva's to guide others, should also give us pause to choose our words carefully, so that at least we do not place further obstacles to those on the path ie

"No human beings have ever attained enlightenment." - bob

"You may believe you have some sense of this, but you don't. You can't." -bob

"Buddha did not awaken here, but on another world" -bob

"Argue for your limitations and, sure enough, they're yours.” - Richard Bach

"My" experience is quite different. "I" propose that any human on this planet can realize the Self, whether it is referred to as Enlightenment, Self Realization, Turiyatita, Daigo, The Kingdom of Heaven, Nirvana, etc etc. And that those who have realized such freedom oftentimes have set
down guidelines for that very purpose, such as Buddha's eightfold noble path or the eight limbs of yoga.

As always I look forward to your views and response. Your comments are always welcome,

Namaste
tim

[Shadowman]

PS: Just one note on Buddhism, please reference the 3 Kayas -- the Nirmanakaya being the "emanation body" of Shakyamuni Buddha, which appeared to go through a long sadhana, only to demonstrate for the sake of truth the futility of that process of seeking and mental manipulation involved in grasping for that which one already is and has always been.

:yo:

From here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirmanakaya (I’ve added the associations in green)

Schools have different ideas about what the three bodies are. From Mahayana Chinese we have;

The Dharmakāya or Truth body which embodies the very principle of enlightenment and knows no limits or boundaries;
= The Father / Brahman / Turiyatita/ Sat

The Sambhogakāya or body of mutual enjoyment which is a body of bliss or clear light manifestation;
= The Holy Spirit/ Turiya /Awareness/ Chit

The Nirmānakāya or created body which manifests in time and space.
= The Son / Jiva / Ego / Manifest form

The Nirmaṇakāya is a physical body of a Buddha. An example would be Gautama Buddha's body.

Conversely from Zen we have (my bolding);

The Three Bodies of the Buddha from the point of view of Zen Buddhist thought are not to be taken as absolute, literal, or materialistic; they are expedient means that "are merely names or props" and only the play of light and shadow of the mind.

Rinzai states it this way:

Do you wish to be not different from the Buddhas and patriarchs? Then just do not look for anything outside. The pure light of your own heart [i.e., 心, mind] at this instant is the Dharmakaya Buddha in your own house. The non-differentiating light of your heart at this instant is the Sambhogakaya Buddha in your own house. The non-discriminating light of your own heart at this instant is the Nirmanakaya Buddha in your own house. This trinity of the Buddha's body is none other than he here before your eyes, listening to my expounding the Dharma.

While it appears you are leaning more towards the Tibetan Buddhist interpretation, the passage above indicates the ability to recognize the truth within ourselves directly and is summed up by this;

The Trikaya-doctrine and the Tathagatagarbha bring the transcendental within reach, by placing the transcendental within the plane of immanence.

So, no need to go to another planet/dimension then, any human can "attain" Self Realization/Enlightenment, right here, right now. Moreover there are a variety of paths to suit different natures and temperaments.

Namaste
tim

[another bob]

Hiya Tim!

I can see you've got a bit of a thing for me, LOL!

In any case, yes -- I clearly answered to your post #45. It seems you didn't hear me -- such hearing requires that one be very still.

Certainly, one can awaken from identification with the body-mind organism, and be liberated in that sense, although that's primarily a mental attainment, and there still remains the matter of the character and the will, as I pointed out earlier. This is why I urge people I meet like yourself who claim some sort of special realization to get with a real live master. Book gurus can't kick ass, frankly speaking, and internet forums are definitely not the place where you are going to find what you really need to progress beyond mere self-confirmation.

Moreover, awakening from the separate self-sense is not "enlightenment", nor is it usually enduring. Whatever has a beginning also has an end. It's awakening in the midst of the dream, but not from the dream itself. Essentially, the 3-D form cannot handle true enlightenment, cannot bear "reality" -- it would be like putting a million volts through an instrument which is only capable of conducting a few hundred. No human has ever been or will ever be enlightened -- that's for quite a few levels up the scale of manifestation. In fact, the whole human experience is itself of the same nature as a virtual reality game, a fiction as it were, but this cannot be understood while in the middle of the game. Our contract is very specific in that regard, otherwise we would not be able to take the game seriously, thus negating its purpose, which is to gather human experiences.

Although I have had numerous realizations throughout my life that would be classified as satori -- some of which were even confirmed by the most respected Rinzai Zen Master in the US -- I didn't understand until an nde in 1984 that all of that was beside the point. It was simply awakening in the dream, which is actually neither here nor there in the scheme of things. I also learned during that experience that the force of naked reality itself would fry a human system instantly -- you simply could not bear it with your current wiring.

I could go into a lot more detail, but I have found that this sort of discussion usually ends up going around and around -- until one actually sees how this thing works (and that's usually not until well into the afterlife), they'll be trapped in defending self-concepts which they believe to be reality, and so I'm refraining from further conversation in this regard, I simply do not wish to burden folks with more talking school ideas, and so I wish you all the best, Tim!

:yo:

[Shadowman]

Hi bob,

I can see you've got a bit of a thing for me, LOL!

Well no, not you, just the glasses in your new avatar, lol. Actually I was just trying to clarify the apparent inconsistencies in your statements, for the benefit of other's reading the thread. But as I pointed out above, they're your limitations, you may treasure them as you like.

When Enlightenment is realized in the sense defined in the OP, to chase after others to have the validity confirmed, would be sublimely ridiculous. There is a world of difference between Satori/Kensho/Turiya/Samadhi and Daigo/Turiyatita/Nirvana/Self Realization. As I have attempted to explain, there is no separate sense of self left, there is no doer left, but this must be realized (as in made real), not realized as in understood. This realization has nothing to do with beliefs, or for that matter mind.

You are right about one thing though, discussion does end up going round and round, and you can't reason your way into Heaven. To transcend the deeply ingrained habits/sanskaras accumulated over lifetimes, practice is what counts, be it Bhakti/Karma/Jnana/Zazen/Vichara/Vipassana/Surat Shabd/Sufi Twirling/Islamic Surrender/Christian Contemplation/ etc, which is what this thread seeks to inspire by confirming Self Realization/Enlightenment IS possible, on this earth, in this body, here and now (not in some cosmic density/dimension/afterlife).

Anyway, thanks for your contributions, should you ever feel inclined to comment further, you are always most welcome,

Namaste/Kind Regards
tim

[greybeard]

The finger pointing to the moon is not the moon but its helpful--- smiling

Minds me of a story of an elightened master about to die and who offered his monks enlightenment.
No one steped up to the plate.

Here we at least have an opportunity on the thread to ask questions of one who is the state caled enlightenment.
According to Dr David Hawkins only one in 5 million is enlightened but that now is a good time as the chances are 1000 time greater than the norm.

Chris

[greybeard]

The Kundalini guru the late Dr Goels explained fully that the wiring is being changed by Kundalini to accept a higer spiritual vibration.
Dr David Hawkins points out that the highest level of enlightenment is the same vibration/frquency as Christ or The Buddha--- Jesus sweated blood --The Buddha in physical agony-- DH stated that the human body can not handle a higher frequency or yes they would be "fried"
Both Eckhart Tolle and Hawkins have said that enlightenment on earth from a higher perspective would seem kindergarten, but it does seem complete.
All say that on enlightenment here, thats the final incarnation on earth.
Seems a worth aim to uncover the Truth.
Chris

[Jenci]

. As Jenci suggested;

If we didn't have people talking about their awakening and enlightenment, then many of us would be lost.........or worse, stuck where were are, thinking we had reached the destination."



Did I say that? Yes, I think I did. ;) I meant it at the time. It really made sense to me. Not now though.

This thread for me has been one of those which I have been contemplating for days. I really appreciate the exchange between Tim and Bob, although at first, I though 'what the bloody hell is going on here?'....then there was something else, something percolating away in the background; that sense that there is something I am missing.....there's something that I am realising but not sure how to put it in words.


Both self and Self need to be recognized as fantasies of interpretation on perception, with no inherent reality. Both fictions need to be penetrated for liberation to begin to dawn, and even that is not enough -- unless it is fully integrated and embodied in the way we act and relate in the world, it remains conceptual and rather impotent.






In short, in response to Ramana’s timeless question - Who am I, how would you answer bob?

Who am I? Well the question takes me to the Self, where it has taken me for some time. The Self (capital S) being the Real, as opposed to the sense of separate self, me, the person.

That was the Real but now it is not, that is what I am coming to realise. That the Self is not real either.

...and that is what, I think Bob is pointing to.

I had never considered myself as having reached the state of enlightenment (if I had to put the process of my awakening into words linear fashion) but no one does get enlightened and no one ever did, this is what I have realised.

So what now? .....it's completely blown my mind, that's for sure.

Bob talked about avatars in a game. I watched the Matrix movie the other day and it was speaking to be very loudly about what all of this is really about.


Jeanette

[greybeard]

There was a Ramana quote where basically the enlightened are comfortable with the paradox of No SELF and SELF.
Where Tim was questioning it was where bob was implying that no one got enlightened here--- they arrived with their light on so to speak.
Words dont do it,
There is no person or even Self left after enlightenment--- why???
Its a condition, a state, where the former no longer exists-- self is replaced by the condition.
Awareness was there before we came intio this world and is eternal.

Obviously if any of this is inncorect Im happy to be corrected.
I postulate a thought in the hope that it can be refined or corrected.

Chris

[Tarka the Duck]

My dreamlike form
Appeared to dreamlike beings
To show them the dreamlike path
To dreamlike enlightenment.

Gautama

[another bob]

There is no person or even Self left after enlightenment...


There is no person or even Self, period.

[another bob]

My dreamlike form
Appeared to dreamlike beings
To show them the dreamlike path
To dreamlike enlightenment.

Gautama


Exactly!


http://i.pbase.com/g4/79/738779/2/77426574.d4Xr5eJ5.jpg


(quote from Dogen Zenji)

[another bob]

Who am I? Well the question takes me to the Self, where it has taken me for some time. The Self (capital S) being the Real, as opposed to the sense of separate self, me, the person.

That was the Real but now it is not, that is what I am coming to realise. That the Self is not real either.

...and that is what, I think Bob is pointing to.


"By gosh, I think she's got it!"

~Henry Higgins

[greybeard]

There is no person or even Self left after enlightenment...


There is no person or even Self, period.

Yes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.
I can proclaim till I am blue in the face that I am the Ocean, that I am beyond even awareness, but that is not the current state.

Eckhart Tolle asked a man when was he born-- the man gave the spiritually correct answer " I was never born etc"
Eckhart said "Yes that was true but not when he said it."
So we must act in accordance with our current state because that what God wants
Thats paraphrasing Ramesh Balsekar.
He said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"
Most teachers will give you a way of removing obstacles in order reveal what you have allways been--- yet in the same breath say you have no free will.
Teachings full of intricate techniques and stages to become realised then say its only by the Grace of God, you cant make it happen.
So there you have the challenge for the "ordinary" man/woman.
I appreciate in particular Tims help in speaking of that which cant be spoken off. The One without a second.

Chris

[another bob]

There is no person or even Self left after enlightenment...


There is no person or even Self, period.

Yes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.

What's helpful is when you finally stop looking for help.


:yo:

[greybeard]

There is no person or even Self left after enlightenment...


There is no person or even Self, period.

Yes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.

What's helpful is when you finally stop looking for help.


:yo:
In a strange way Im not actually looking for help Im appreciating it when given bob.
As said I learn through life giving me feed back in whatever form or non form it comes in.
Your posts are always appreciated too--- thanks to yourself I am halfway through "I am That"
I do what I do for the enjoyment in the moment of it not actually looking for anything---
I dont know if meditation will happen today or not--- yet it seems there is some kind of discipline hapening.
Acts happen deeds are done there is no individual doer there of (Ramesh)
That kind of sums up life of the moment.

Thanks
Chris

[another bob]

There is no person or even Self left after enlightenment...


There is no person or even Self, period.

Yes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.

What's helpful is when you finally stop looking for help.


:yo:
In a strange way Im not actually looking for help Im appreciating it when given bob.

Hiya Chris!

Since you like Adya, here's a pertinent quote:

In Liberation, you stand alone. You stand alone because you need no supports of any kind. You need no supports because you have realized that the very notion of a separate you no longer exists; that there is nothing to support; that the whole ego experience was a flimsy illusion. So you stand alone but never, never lonely because everywhere you look, all you see is That, and You are That.

~Adyashanti

[greybeard]

Ah yes but who exactly is he helping bob, by giving talks and sharing his experience, wisdom and knowledge.
He had a Zen teacher for years and was a very intense seeker then hit the wall of knowing he could not make it hapen.
I know I cant make it happen.
He confirms there is a state of liberation--- then being in that state yes you stand alone-- there is no other.
Ignorance needs to be removed and I contend that some form of help is needed up to some point--- till you have out grown it or whatever.
Seems humility is very important on some so called paths.
Nasargadatta needed the help of his teacher and freely admits that.
Papaji helped by Ramana-- thats why there is a linage--- a trusted proven way.
It ok to say there is no path no way and I get that --- however the seeker has no choice but to seek till seeking ends.
There is no choice in that as far as I can see.
Chris

[another bob]

Ah yes but who exactly is he helping bob, by giving talks and sharing his experience, wisdom and knowledge.
He had a Zen teacher for years and was a very intense seeker then hit the wall of knowing he could not make it hapen.


From an interview with Adya:

Q: And what is the role of spiritual practice in awakening?

A: It depends on the nature of the individual. By practice I assume you mean some sort of meditation, prayer, or devotional practices. These practices either will or will not happen. You will find yourself drawn or not drawn to them.

Q: They're not necessary?

A: They're not necessary in and of themselves. But, if you happen to do them. then maybe they're necessary for you. They can become a barrier too. "I don't do enough meditation; how can I possibly awaken?" That's not to say that spiritual practices can't be very useful. They can be very, very useful as long as they're not used as unconscious defense mechanisms.

Q: You mean as a defense against awakening?

A: Yes, because most often that is what they are used for. What I'm saying is that most meditators are avoiding their own experience rather than trying to truly understand it.

Q: So, it seems that meditation could either help or hinder that process.

A: Right. exactly. In my own teaching, in my retreats, there is quite a lot of meditation just for the reason of being able to abide. If someone cannot sit still, then they find it very difficult to inquire in any concentrated, single-pointed way. They inquire in a very messy, conflicted way.

Q: It helps to know how to quiet the mind.

A: Yes. Spiritual practices are not bad. It's more the attitude that we're doing them with than what those practices actually are.

Q: You yourself did fifteen years of intense Zen meditation practice.

A: Right, and for a lot of that time I did exactly what I am telling people not to do. I did a tremendous amount of meditation and a lot of that meditation was an unconscious grasping at an ideal that I had of what enlightenment was. In both cases it was a horrendous waste of energy. It was useful in the sense that I finally got tired of it, but in and of itself, it was a real waste of energy.


So Chris, I am not denying that a genuinely awakened teacher can helpful, if only to show one that they actually need no help, and that they must stand on their own two feet. My disagreement with Tim was his claim of being "enlightened", and thus qualified to show others "the way", when in fact he is one who actually needs to get with a real live teacher, before he gets too carried away with his own delusion.



Q: So would you say that people become more proud as a result of having had spiritual experiences? Can spiritual experiences at times strengthen the ego in a negative way?

Ammachi: The people to whom this happens are deluded, and they confuse others as well. They will actually push others into delusion. Some people gain a glimpse of something, or have a spiritual experience, and then think they have attained the truth. Only someone who is not realized will think, "I am spiritual, I am enlightened..." and this will create a strong, subtle ego.

A subtle ego is more dangerous than a gross ego. Even the individuals themselves won't understand that the subtle ego is leading or motivating them, and this subtle ego will become part of their nature. This kind of pride also makes people lose their capacity to listen. And listening is extremely important on the spiritual path. A person who does not listen cannot be humble. And it is only when we are truly humble that the already existing pure Consciousness will be unfolded within us.

[greybeard]

Thanks for the time you took and your input bob.
You can see the challenge that "seekers" have.
there is no definate indication that another is in a true state called enlightenment.
Test dont seem to me to be valid.
For example kundalini awoke in me 18 years ago and with it came various gifts which I let go.
I gave up identification with them.
I have had the bliss experiences-- never felt one with all though, appart from that my mind is virtually silent.
So I could say I passed quite a few tests on enlightenment yet I have not experienced oneness.
I have spent "personal" time with Eckhart, Ramesh, Dr Goels, Bernie Prior, Dr David Hawkins--- I did not ever look for that to happen it just did.
Thankfully meditation was never particularly a great experience so I did not get addicted to it.
Im much in the moment-- any reaction on my part is gone in moments.
Desires virtually no existant-- neither attraction nor aversion.
So I am blessed in many ways.
I can truthfully say I did not achive any of it--- it just happened--- but I did ask--- the God "of my lack of understanding."
I say I dont understand because so much love and help has come my way-- through coincidence-- sycronicity.

Thanks again bob, though I cant see why you are so sure that Tim is deluded.

Chris

[another bob]

Thanks for the time you took and your input bob.
You can see the challenge that "seekers" have.
there is no definate indication that another is in a true state called enlightenment.


Well, my Friend, you'd have to go back to my original comments about "enlightenment" itself. Remember, I also distinguished between awakening, liberation, and enlightenment. To reiterate, one may awaken beyond identification with the "self", or body-mind organism, and so be liberated in that sense, but that is not enlightenment, which is of a whole different order altogether, and is not possible in 3-D, simply put.




Thanks again bob, though I cant see why you are so sure that Tim is deluded

Tim is a great guy, no doubt, and well-meaning, I'm sure, so please understand I am not trying to put him down. However, I've been around a while. I've been involved with spiritual communities for over half a century, studied with a number of masters, and seen all sorts of folks come and go, making various claims and so forth. I've honed my discrimination in that regard, especially when it comes to internet guru wannabes -- a particularly odd class of individual infected with what Ammachi called "the subtle ego" (as quoted above in my last post). Folks would be surprised at how transparent they are in this regard!

My main point in all of this is not to denigate another's position, whether or not I believe it's true or not. My main point is that we simply do not need to fill our minds full of more enlightenment idealism, even if it is intended to be "succinct". All that does is spawn more conceptuality about the subject, which actually turns out to be more hindrance than help.


:yo:

[Eram]

I wish the "I" would take a vacation, a permanent one.

There's nothing wrong with the "I", it's a wonderful navigation device that helps us to stop on red and go on green-- it's just fixating on it that creates the problem, making it the master rather than the servant.

:yo:

Hi all,

If I may be so bold to throw in a few words in this discussion of Titans,

Isn't it so that without the 'I' the experience of separation and so the experience we have is impossible? We would be back in the source immediately.
It is thanks to the 'I' that we can experience this dream. So maybe it is not about sending it on a permanent vacation, but learning how to get the 'I' in proportion, to a point were the 'I' understands it's merely a tool to have this experience and nothing more.

x post update x

Giving the 'I' some appreciation for it's existence would take away a big part of the feeling that one would like to send it on a permanent vacation :).

[another bob]

I wish the "I" would take a vacation, a permanent one.

There's nothing wrong with the "I", it's a wonderful navigation device that helps us to stop on red and go on green-- it's just fixating on it that creates the problem, making it the master rather than the servant.

:yo:

Hi all,

If I may be so bold to throw in a few words in this discussion of Titans,

Isn't it so that without the 'I' the experience of separation and so the experience we have is impossible? We would be back in the source immediately.
It is thanks to the 'I' that we can experience this dream. So maybe it is not about sending it on a permanent vacation, but learning how to get the 'I' in proportion, to a point were the 'I' understands it's merely a tool to have this experience and nothing more.

Yep, pretty much. . . Remember also, that ego is an activity, not an entity.

[Jenci]

My main point in all of this is not to denigate another's position, whether or not I believe it's true or not. My main point is that we simply do not need to fill our minds full of more enlightenment idealism, even if it is intended to be "succinct". All that does is spawn more conceptuality about the subject, which actually turns out to be more hindrance than help.


:yo:

I've certainly needed descriptions and help about what enlightenment is, along the way. They have helped make sense of some of the strange experiences that I have been having and they have also given me the courage to keep going.

What I have seen from contemplating this thread for days, is that they in themselves have become fixed points - beliefs about what enlightenment is.

Even the sense of have of Awareness/Consciousness that this was the One, Eternal, Real, I am now questioning. And I am questioning the sense of it, not just the belief of it.

What if this too, Awareness/Consciousness, is still the illusion?

What we call enlightenment is the awakening in the midst of the dream. So what is awakening from the dream itself?
Is that seeing beyond even the veil of illusion that is Awareness itself?
Can a human being ever do that - how would the body/mind of a human cope with that? That would mean nothing that we ever experience here in this life is real....just some kind of virtual reality program running in the background.....but in the background of what?

I don't have the answers, but I am asking the questions.....and listening.

Jeanette

[Fred Steeves]

Coming from the far side here, what if...The name of the game is for Consciousness to purposely lose itself in the farthest reaches of it's own Mind, the deep wilderness. The only possible way back is a deeply implanted homing beacon, so to speak. Some aspects of Consciousness may discover this immediately and head right on back home, some may wander aimlessly for eons. I suspect we're in the latter group.

Either way, in this case there is no such thing as enlightenment. There is only a noticing, and then a following of this beacon as we begin to dimly comprehend it's meaning. We begin following it only at that magical point of finally realizing we have nothing else to turn to. Absolutely nothing.

This beacon is nothing but the memory of who we truly are. As we erratically home in, we can always continue the game and stop comfortably at any point, fooling ourselves that we are home. Or we can order Scotty to engage warp nine and end it. Game over.

Then it's story time.(LOL)

Cheers,
Fred

[Jenci]

This beacon is nothing but the memory of who we truly are. As we erratically home in, we can always continue the game and stop comfortably at any point, fooling ourselves that we are home. Or we can order Scotty to engage warp nine and end it. Game over.

Then it's story time.(LOL)

Cheers,
Fred

I think you may be onto something there, Fred, lol.

It's good to see you back here posting :)

Jeanette

[Sebastion]

It has been said that " one must be willing to give it all up only to get it all back in the end". If that is so and I have not found it otherwise, one must give up any attachments to the "I", the "self" and "seeking", "enlightenment", etc.

Certainly far easier stated than done. Letting go can be hard but not to worry, you can get it all back!

[another bob]

My main point in all of this is not to denigate another's position, whether or not I believe it's true or not. My main point is that we simply do not need to fill our minds full of more enlightenment idealism, even if it is intended to be "succinct". All that does is spawn more conceptuality about the subject, which actually turns out to be more hindrance than help.


:yo:

I've certainly needed descriptions and help about what enlightenment is, along the way. They have helped make sense of some of the strange experiences that I have been having and they have also given me the courage to keep going.

What I have seen from contemplating this thread for days, is that they in themselves have become fixed points - beliefs about what enlightenment is.


Yes, and therein lies the problem with fattening the mind with borrowed idealism -- fixed beliefs and opinions.




Even the sense of have of Awareness/Consciousness that this was the One, Eternal, Real, I am now questioning. And I am questioning the sense of it, not just the belief of it.

What if this too, Awareness/Consciousness, is still the illusion?


This sort of inquiry has been what I'm driving at -- that we not stop with the conventional answers, but keep going further.



What we call enlightenment is the awakening in the midst of the dream. So what is awakening from the dream itself?
Is that seeing beyond even the veil of illusion that is Awareness itself?
Can a human being ever do that - how would the body/mind of a human cope with that? That would mean nothing that we ever experience here in this life is real....just some kind of virtual reality program running in the background.....but in the background of what?


Again, this is what I've pointed to earlier in this thread, except the "program" is not running in any background -- it's the foreground. The background is the Unknown. And no, the 3-D form cannot cope with such an experience, as I've also mentioned.

It seems that one must at least have witnessed their own death to even begin to get a sense about this whole deal. Here's something from David Godman, in his memoirs about Nisargadatta:

"At some point Maharaj asked him, 'Have you witnessed your own death?' and Rudi replied 'No'.

Maharaj then launched into a mini-lecture on how it was necessary to witness one's own death in order for there to be full realisation. He said that it had happened to him after he thought that he had fully realised the Self, and it wasn't until after this death experience that he understood that this process was necessary for final liberation. I hope somebody recorded this dialogue on tape because I am depending on a twenty-five-year-old memory for this. It seems to be a crucial part of Maharaj's experience and teachings but I never heard him mention it on any other occasion. I have also not come across it in any of his books."




I don't have the answers, but I am asking the questions.....and listening.

Jeanette


That's the spirit!


:yo:

[greybeard]

Dr David Hawkins said there is a final door and only God wallks through that.
He said ther is only one death and "his" experience was one of terror as the ego-- self what ever you want to call the personal I finally died.
Then the mind was totally silent ( he had to re-awaken the ability to comunicate before teaching began
There was a silent temptation before the death happened.
There after it was as though a black and white world tturned into technicolour.
He then saw divinity shining forth in everything.
He spent years in isolation as the initial "enlightenment" matured/ evolved before the final death.
He said that was "his" destiiny and even lower level of "enlightenment" feel complete but he had to surrender them.
In his last life time he went into the void that seemed complete but lacked Love.
He warned that the path of negation could lead to the void.
He had to come back to resolve this and the question of existance verses non-existence.
It was thirty years before he could speak of "enlightenment"
I dont see why he would missinform about al this.
My post is all over the place as I am not articulate today--- sorry.

Chris

[another bob]

Dr David Hawkins said there is a final door and only God wallks through that.
He said ther is only one death and "his" experience was one of terror as the ego-- self what ever you want to call the personal I finally died.
Then the mind was totally silent ( he had to re-awaken the ability to comunicate before teaching began
There was a silent temptation before the death happened.
There after it was as though a black and white world tturned into technicolour.
He then saw divinity shining forth in everything.
He spent years in isolation as the initial "enlightenment" matured/ evolved before the final death.
He said that was "his" destiiny and even lower level of "enlightenment" feel complete but he had to surrender them.
In his last life time he went into the void that seemed complete but lacked Love.
He warned that the path of negation could lead to the void.
He had to come back to resolve this and the question of existance verses non-existence.
It was thirty years before he could speak of "enlightenment"
I dont see why he would missinform about al this.
My post is all over the place as I am not articulate today--- sorry.

Chris

People have all sorts of experiences and take them to be definitive, and then become prophets and start new religions and so forth. The mind can turn even profound realizations into new ways to confirm itself and its enduring existence. However, no experience is definitive. You start to realize that fact, after a few experiences . . . at least some do.


:yo:

[Jenci]

Yes, and therein lies the problem with fattening the mind with borrowed idealism -- fixed beliefs and opinions.
All beliefs and opinions have to go. Even the ones from the teachers that we have learned from the teachers. Adyashanti says do not take my word for anything, find out for yourself.








This sort of inquiry has been what I'm driving at -- that we not stop with the conventional answers, but keep going further.



Again, this is what I've pointed to earlier in this thread, except the "program" is not running in any background -- it's the foreground. The background is the Unknown. And no, the 3-D form cannot cope with such an experience, as I've also mentioned.

Ok, so the program (like a computer program of a virtual world) is running in the foreground. Now I may be in that program as the person Jeanette believing that I am the mind/body. But I also may be in that program, having attained what people call the state of enlightenment with the personal sense of self having fallen away, or I maybe on a journey somewhere in between the two.

Whatever perception I may have, it is still part of the program only running in the foreground.

Whether it is ego identification or enlightenment, it's still the dream which brings me to Kathie's quote:-



My dreamlike form
Appeared to dreamlike beings
To show them the dreamlike path
To dreamlike enlightenment.

Gautama





It seems that one must at least have witnessed their own death to even begin to get a sense about this whole deal.

What you are saying is that you will only realise all of this is only a foreground program, when you experience the physical death and then even enlightenment will be seen as part of the program or dream, when what is in the background will be realised.

So, rather than seek enlightenment, better to realise that enlightenment is not the absolute truth, it's just something that happens to the human in the program/dream. Then even enlightenment doesn't matter.

What next? Physical death is a bit extreme to realise the absolute truth, lol.

But really there is nothing to do, like Nisargadatta said.


I think.....well at least today, that's what I think :)

Jeanette

[Jenci]

Dr David Hawkins said there is a final door and only God wallks through that.
He said ther is only one death and "his" experience was one of terror as the ego-- self what ever you want to call the personal I finally died.
Then the mind was totally silent ( he had to re-awaken the ability to comunicate before teaching began
There was a silent temptation before the death happened.
There after it was as though a black and white world tturned into technicolour.
He then saw divinity shining forth in everything.
He spent years in isolation as the initial "enlightenment" matured/ evolved before the final death.
He said that was "his" destiiny and even lower level of "enlightenment" feel complete but he had to surrender them.
In his last life time he went into the void that seemed complete but lacked Love.
He warned that the path of negation could lead to the void.
He had to come back to resolve this and the question of existance verses non-existence.
It was thirty years before he could speak of "enlightenment"
I dont see why he would missinform about al this.
My post is all over the place as I am not articulate today--- sorry.

Chris


I don't think this is necessarily about misinforming, Chris.

I think teachings are open to interpretations. I remember when I first read I Am That and then when I picked it up again months later. It was like reading two different books. Of course, the words hadn't changed but I was filtering Nisargadatta's teachings through my own beliefs, understandings, conditioning etc.

I still have plenty of beliefs left it seems, even though I thought a lot of them had fallen away. Discussions like these are digging out these beliefs.

Adyashanti taught me a very important question to ask myself when I believe something - Am I 100% certain this is true?

Many beliefs have fallen away in the asking of this question. Now it seems even the idea/belief of enlightenment is falling away when I ask the question.

Can I be 100% certain that enlightenment is something that really happens?

No, I can't. However I do believe what people are telling me is true when they say it. But have I filtered their words through my own limited understanding ......or have they taken their experiences to be the absolute truth when they have stopped short of it, or because it is not available to them in this 3D life?

Jeanette

[another bob]

What next? Physical death is a bit extreme to realise the absolute truth, lol.

Hiya Sister!

You exhibit a lot of clarity in your inquiry! Thanks for your willingness to investigate these matters more deeply!

To the point above, realizing some "absolute truth" is really just another fantasy. Living life with impeccable integrity is the way we pass the tests. Having passed the tests in this kindergarden of a realm, we can move on to the next curriculum.



Edit to add:

I'd say that Nisargadatta's point was that his own nde showed him that what he had taken for some "final" realization before was not at all the end of the story. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, the same thing happened to me, so I can particularly relate to that.

:yo:

[another bob]

on the lighter side . . .


4KXidr0z1RY



ja86AkbxQLQ

[Shadowman]

Hi all,

The purpose of this particular thread, was to offer a direct account of the moment of awakening/enlightenment/self realization. And to offer the wonderful news that you don’t need to be special, or rich, or knowledgable, or chosen, or the son of god, or already enlightened on some other planet or in some other realm/dimension/density (lol), or “hardwired” to receive the “apparently” overwhelming influx of energy that would “fry” a human being (lol), sigh, or be free of any other limitation/reason/philosophical obstacle (that the mind/ego and the various priests/boffins would have you believe, and upon which their “authority” and sometimes livelihoods depend ) to realize the Self.

For some on this thread “my” claim of enlightenment has presented an immediate red flag or obstacle. Justly so, for there are many who prematurely make such a claim, and such claims are difficult to validate in an internet forum. I attempted to define enlightenment in the OP by the realization, letting the state described speak for itself, and to delineate in words between the transcendental state of the witness (sometimes referred to as Turiya/Kensho/Satori) and the final awakening or complete enlightenment (sometimes referred to as Turiyatita/Daigo/Non Duality/Brahman/The Kingdom of Heaven/etc) in post #45.

As this final state is diametrically opposed to that which your 5 senses and mind tell you whilst in the relative dualistic state, it can be hard to accept and appears nonsensical to those of a worldy view. Which is why the emphasis should be on realizing that absolute state, rather than discussing it, then all will be perfectly clear.

To get caught up in relative definitions, what name to give it, etc is to make the great mistake referred to by Sosan in the Hsin Hsin Ming of using the discriminating mind to seek Mind, to use the limited to seek the unlimited. Any movement of the discriminating mind is the illusion or if you like, the clouds, which prevent the clear view of the sky.

What is required is a deep and profound insight into the nature of the predicament you find yourself currently in, which is the first of Buddha’s four noble truths. Chris makes the following point;

Yes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.
I can proclaim till I am blue in the face that I am the Ocean, that I am beyond even awareness, but that is not the current state.

Eckhart Tolle asked a man when was he born-- the man gave the spiritually correct answer " I was never born etc"
Eckhart said "Yes that was true but not when he said it." -Chris #63


So, as long as you “appear” to exist as a mind/body subjective self, relative to an externally existing universe, you are dreaming. And it is relatively easy to notice whether you are still identified with the mind/body/ego. Are you still subject to fear, anger, lust, greed and attachments? This is in no way meant to be taken as a judgement, but be honest with yourself, acknowledge where you “appear” to be.


It’s all very well to say there is no Self, or no God, or that there is nothing to be done and no one to do it, (which may or may not be true in the absolute sense) but if you acknowledge “you” are still suffering, if “you” are still attached in any way shape or form to any thing, be it a philosophical truism, a child, your body, your car, your job, your religion, etc etc - then you are subject to all that goes along with such attachments, ie fear, desire, anger, etc.

Only unconditional love is real and eternal, for it is your nature, not something you do, or something which requires a reason to be. Anger, fear, desire, conditional love, etc, are all predicated on being delusional, on identifying with that which you are not, in thinking you have something to gain, or something to lose, or something to become (lol, including enlightened).

Your mental habits/beliefs/sanskaras/patterns in which you daily engage in self hypnosis are difficult to break free from. Just being aware on a daily basis how much of your energy/effort/thoughts are spent attending to the needs/desires/wants of your body/mind/ego, and how automatic it has become, should convince you that undoing this illusion won’t necessarily be a “walk in the park”. Further you are surrounded by and large by people suffering from the same delusion, and you all reinforce one another’s limitations, sometimes patting each other on the back, when you agree with each other, and other times killing one another.

So, those who are genuine/authentic/focused on attaining Self Realization/God/Enlightenment will benefit from those whom have “trod the path” before them and counter the daily ego hypnosis initially with a sadhana/practice/meditation/service where one’s mind rests/subsides/focuses on God/Self/Awareness.

While there is a substantial increase in energy in the body as one conserves more energy in not engaging in egoic indulgences/pursuits, and while such energy can manifest in interesting ways, it is a mistake to assume enlightenment or self realization happens within the physical vehicle. As suggested in the OP at the moment of enlightenment, one does not go anywhere, or become something greater. The ocean does not “squeeze” into the wave, lol, the wave, which only “appeared” separate, simply subsides, the illusion clears and all is well - all is far better than well .

The silly old goose never really was in a bottle and never could get cooked/fried....

http://kpguru.blogspot.com.au/2010/03/goose-is-out_20.html

The following is a quote from Nisargadatta's I Am That. Partly to point out that it is not that uncommon for genuinely enlightened beings to acknowledge their awakening, (even Jesus states it in his own way, "I and the Father are one"). And partly to show that while he acknowledges that in the end, the natural enlightened state is effortless, relatively, like most others, it comes about through both training/sadhana and realization. The key is in simplifying ones life so that devotion to the goal of Self/God Realization takes precedence over all worldy pursuits. Or as Jesus put it, love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul...


Questioner: Kindly tell us how you realized:

Maharaj: I met my Guru when I was 34 and realized by 37.
Q: What happened? What was the change?

M: Pleasure and pain lost their sway over me. I was free from
desire and fear. I found myself full, needing nothing. I saw that
in the ocean of pure awareness, on the surface of the universal
consciousness, the numberless waves of the phenomenal
worlds arise and subside beginninglessly and endlessly. As
consciousness, they are all me. As events they are all mine.
There is a mysterious power that looks after them. That power is
awareness, Self, Life, God, whatever name you give it. It is the
foundation, the ultimate support of all that is, just like gold is the
basis for all gold jewellery. And it is so intimately ours! Abstract
the name and shape from the jewellery and the gold becomes
obvious. Be free of name and form and of the desires and fears
they create, then what remains?


Q: Does this spontaneous response come as a result of realization,
or by training?
M: Both. Devotion to your goal makes you live a clean and orderly
life, given to search for truth and to helping people, and
realization makes noble virtue easy and spontaneous, by removing
for good the obstacles in the shape of desires and fears
and wrong ideas.
Q: Don’t you have desires and fears any more?
M: My destiny was to be born a simple man, a commoner, a
humble tradesman, with little of formal education. My life was of
the common kind, with common desires and fears. When,
through my faith in my teacher and obedience to his words, I
realized my true being, I left behind my human nature to look
after itself, until its destiny is exhausted. Occasionally an old
reaction, emotional or mental, happens in the mind, but it is at
once noticed and discarded. After all, as long as one is burdened
with a person, one is exposed to its idiosyncrasies and
habits.
Q: Are you not afraid of death?
M: I am dead already.
Q: In what sense?
M: I am double dead. Not only am I dead to my body, but to my
mind too.

[Tarka the Duck]

Hello Tim

Gotta ask...so can you walk through walls, know the mind of every sentient being, manipulate matter, produce emanations etc? I have heard that enlightened beings are able to do such things. That would be really nifty!! :cool:

[Sebastion]

Hi Tim:

Forgive me please but there is something here that I would like to put forth for your consideration. You need not believe a word of it but at least consider it.

Anotherbob has experienced at least two NDE's and hence gained tremendous knowledge as a result from direct experience and I would submit to you that they were out of body as well.

My experiences all came as a result of my ability to astral/soul travel as I was born with that ability, as is everyone. My desire to find "god" became an all consuming passion at around 28 years of age. Earthly searching was fruitless for me so my only recourse was to develop my astral abilities beyond the astral to go beyond, hence soul travel.

I must second what Anotherbob has stated because it was the truth as I found it to be. When I went into much higher spiritual regions, I was exposed to unimaginable Light, unimaginable raw energy and ultimately Love beyond imagination-absolute, complete, unconditioned.

The problem seriously arose when it was time to get back in the body. Well that wasn't going to immediately happen. The more I tried to get back in the body, the more I had to experience what was exquisite ecstasy and profound agony. For a time, I was literally hanging on physically for half seconds at a time and I am completely dead serious. The only way the final merging was going to happen was to find a way to begin dumping spiritual energy on one side and raising the body energies on the other. Not an easy task at all, yet I had no choice if I wanted to retain a physical body.

So what it boiled down to was total enlightenment without a body or give it up (mostly) to retain a physical body. I found that dumping light energy was tantamount to giving up enlightenment. That was observed after the fact as at the time I found myself too busy trying to literally survive.

So yes, exposure to too much can fry or kill the body in a heartbeat. Take this story for what ever you feel it is worth. It is simply offered for your consideration.






Hi all,

The purpose of this particular thread, was to offer a direct account of the moment of awakening/enlightenment/self realization. And to offer the wonderful news that you don’t need to be special, or rich, or knowledgable, or chosen, or the son of god, or already enlightened on some other planet or in some other realm/dimension/density (lol), or “hardwired” to receive the “apparently” overwhelming influx of energy that would “fry” a human being (lol), sigh, or be free of any other limitation/reason/philosophical obstacle (that the mind/ego and the various priests/boffins would have you believe, and upon which their “authority” and sometimes livelihoods depend ) to realize the Self.

For some on this thread “my” claim of enlightenment has presented an immediate red flag or obstacle. Justly so, for there are many who prematurely make such a claim, and such claims are difficult to validate in an internet forum. I attempted to define enlightenment in the OP by the realization, letting the state described speak for itself, and to delineate in words between the transcendental state of the witness (sometimes referred to as Turiya/Kensho/Satori) and the final awakening or complete enlightenment (sometimes referred to as Turiyatita/Daigo/Non Duality/Brahman/The Kingdom of Heaven/etc) in post #45.

As this final state is diametrically opposed to that which your 5 senses and mind tell you whilst in the relative dualistic state, it can be hard to accept and appears nonsensical to those of a worldy view. Which is why the emphasis should be on realizing that absolute state, rather than discussing it, then all will be perfectly clear.

To get caught up in relative definitions, what name to give it, etc is to make the great mistake referred to by Sosan in the Hsin Hsin Ming of using the discriminating mind to seek Mind, to use the limited to seek the unlimited. Any movement of the discriminating mind is the illusion or if you like, the clouds, which prevent the clear view of the sky.

What is required is a deep and profound insight into the nature of the predicament you find yourself currently in, which is the first of Buddha’s four noble truths. Chris makes the following point;

Yes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.
I can proclaim till I am blue in the face that I am the Ocean, that I am beyond even awareness, but that is not the current state.

Eckhart Tolle asked a man when was he born-- the man gave the spiritually correct answer " I was never born etc"
Eckhart said "Yes that was true but not when he said it." -Chris #63


So, as long as you “appear” to exist as a mind/body subjective self, relative to an externally existing universe, you are dreaming. And it is relatively easy to notice whether you are still identified with the mind/body/ego. Are you still subject to fear, anger, lust, greed and attachments? This is in no way meant to be taken as a judgement, but be honest with yourself, acknowledge where you “appear” to be.


It’s all very well to say there is no Self, or no God, or that there is nothing to be done and no one to do it, (which may or may not be true in the absolute sense) but if you acknowledge “you” are still suffering, if “you” are still attached in any way shape or form to any thing, be it a philosophical truism, a child, your body, your car, your job, your religion, etc etc - then you are subject to all that goes along with such attachments, ie fear, desire, anger, etc.

Only unconditional love is real and eternal, for it is your nature, not something you do, or something which requires a reason to be. Anger, fear, desire, conditional love, etc, are all predicated on being delusional, on identifying with that which you are not, in thinking you have something to gain, or something to lose, or something to become (lol, including enlightened).

Your mental habits/beliefs/sanskaras/patterns in which you daily engage in self hypnosis are difficult to break free from. Just being aware on a daily basis how much of your energy/effort/thoughts are spent attending to the needs/desires/wants of your body/mind/ego, and how automatic it has become, should convince you that undoing this illusion won’t necessarily be a “walk in the park”. Further you are surrounded by and large by people suffering from the same delusion, and you all reinforce one another’s limitations, sometimes patting each other on the back, when you agree with each other, and other times killing one another.

So, those who are genuine/authentic/focused on attaining Self Realization/God/Enlightenment will benefit from those whom have “trod the path” before them and counter the daily ego hypnosis initially with a sadhana/practice/meditation/service where one’s mind rests/subsides/focuses on God/Self/Awareness.

While there is a substantial increase in energy in the body as one conserves more energy in not engaging in egoic indulgences/pursuits, and while such energy can manifest in interesting ways, it is a mistake to assume enlightenment or self realization happens within the physical vehicle. As suggested in the OP at the moment of enlightenment, one does not go anywhere, or become something greater. The ocean does not “squeeze” into the wave, lol, the wave, which only “appeared” separate, simply subsides, the illusion clears and all is well - all is far better than well .

The silly old goose never really was in a bottle and never could get cooked/fried....

http://kpguru.blogspot.com.au/2010/03/goose-is-out_20.html

The following is a quote from Nisargadatta's I Am That. Partly to point out that it is not that uncommon for genuinely enlightened beings to acknowledge their awakening, (even Jesus states it in his own way, "I and the Father are one"). And partly to show that while he acknowledges that in the end, the natural enlightened state is effortless, relatively, like most others, it comes about through both training/sadhana and realization. The key is in simplifying ones life so that devotion to the goal of Self/God Realization takes precedence over all worldy pursuits. Or as Jesus put it, love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul...


Questioner: Kindly tell us how you realized:

Maharaj: I met my Guru when I was 34 and realized by 37.
Q: What happened? What was the change?

M: Pleasure and pain lost their sway over me. I was free from
desire and fear. I found myself full, needing nothing. I saw that
in the ocean of pure awareness, on the surface of the universal
consciousness, the numberless waves of the phenomenal
worlds arise and subside beginninglessly and endlessly. As
consciousness, they are all me. As events they are all mine.
There is a mysterious power that looks after them. That power is
awareness, Self, Life, God, whatever name you give it. It is the
foundation, the ultimate support of all that is, just like gold is the
basis for all gold jewellery. And it is so intimately ours! Abstract
the name and shape from the jewellery and the gold becomes
obvious. Be free of name and form and of the desires and fears
they create, then what remains?


Q: Does this spontaneous response come as a result of realization,
or by training?
M: Both. Devotion to your goal makes you live a clean and orderly
life, given to search for truth and to helping people, and
realization makes noble virtue easy and spontaneous, by removing
for good the obstacles in the shape of desires and fears
and wrong ideas.
Q: Don’t you have desires and fears any more?
M: My destiny was to be born a simple man, a commoner, a
humble tradesman, with little of formal education. My life was of
the common kind, with common desires and fears. When,
through my faith in my teacher and obedience to his words, I
realized my true being, I left behind my human nature to look
after itself, until its destiny is exhausted. Occasionally an old
reaction, emotional or mental, happens in the mind, but it is at
once noticed and discarded. After all, as long as one is burdened
with a person, one is exposed to its idiosyncrasies and
habits.
Q: Are you not afraid of death?
M: I am dead already.
Q: In what sense?
M: I am double dead. Not only am I dead to my body, but to my
mind too.

[GoodETxSG]

I am Enlightened to the Fact that I have a long way to go to become Enlightened... if that is even possible for a person even after a thousand life times. Anyone who says they are Enlightened is speaking from complete Ego and thus proves they are not.

[shijo]

I know of no one whos free of desire,myself included,ive met a lot of practitioners over many years on the Buddhist path from many different traditions.So instead of getting rid of desire maybe simple discernment is the key,after all the Buddhas desire was to make all people equal to him,and thats a beautiful desire.In my opinion even without burning up ones karma,even with illusions still intact we can attain the Way through practise.After all we have the same nature.....regards Shijo.

[another bob]

Sebastion -- Thanks so much, you described the deal very well -- "returning back" is like undergoing a kind of lobotomy, and then squeezing into a dense and dumbed down wet suit. Others I've talked to who have had the experience have reported similarly. The last time, I wept and wept, though I was grateful beyond words for having been shown what I had. Prior to the experience, I was an ardent spiritual practitioner. Afterwards, that all just dropped away, like the obsolete toys of childhood.

In any case, it's easy enough to talk the talk about "enlightenment". Just a few clicks away on google will yield hundreds of "enlightenment" descriptions. Why would one think that we need another, unless they had some position or self-image they wanted confirmed?

What would be useful perhaps is some discussion on how one MANIFESTS their realization in everyday life and relationships. In other words, how they walk the walk. What I have found is that, unless the realization can be embodied in how we relate and act in the world, it can be more hindrance than help, and in fact bolster the "subtle ego".


:yo:

[greybeard]

One simple definition of enlightenment is the removal of ignorance.
The ignorance being the thought that I am a person/an individual seperate from God.

Eckhart Tolle saiid that the the trouble with th enlightenment "experience" is that comes then goes and thats ok as an encouragment but the state of enlightenment is not an experience. its a condition the previous is replaced.
Most of the sages I have read say that enlightenment in this world is only a beggining and viewed as kindergarten from a higher perspective.

Some yogis can do amazing things but are not enlightened.
They identify with their abilities.
The thought that the state of enlightenment, as apposed to an experience of enlightenment, is not possible in this world would seem a limiting belief system.
With the state of enlightenment ther is no person left to claim it.
Eckhart Tolle said that the ego expects to be an enlightened ego and that is not the case as there is no ego left.
He also said that Kama has a certain momentum so that continues after enlightenment--- the enlightened one is very ordinary.

Chris

Chris

[Tarka the Duck]

Yes, siddhis can be developed without enlightenment.
But does enlightenment naturally reveal siddhis?

[another bob]

Yes, siddhis can be developed without enlightenment.
But does enlightenment naturally reveal siddhis?


http://i41.tinypic.com/5n591h.jpg

[Shadowman]

Who am I? Well the question takes me to the Self, where it has taken me for some time. The Self (capital S) being the Real, as opposed to the sense of separate self, me, the person.

That was the Real but now it is not, that is what I am coming to realise. That the Self is not real either.

I had never considered myself as having reached the state of enlightenment (if I had to put the process of my awakening into words linear fashion) but no one does get enlightened and no one ever did, this is what I have realised. - Jenci #57

Hi Jen,

Ramana’s Vichara, or Self enquiry, is sometimes interpreted by the Western conditioned mind as to be approached in a logical, rational way. This can lead to the mechanical repetition of the phrase “who am I”, or an internal philosophical discussion on what it means.

The correct application of Vichara is not really different from the correct translation/interpretation of repentance (Grk metanoia) in the bible, which is to “return to the source”, or to cease to engage in sin (Grk hemartia), which is simply “missing the point”.

So in that sense Ramana is suggesting one’s enquiry is not so much to “think about” the source, but to remain as the source, the plenary awareness, which precedes all temporary phenomena. And whenever thoughts arise, rather than become identified with them or “caught up in them” ie “what am I doing here, this is pointless, I’m wasting my time, I could be shampooing the cat, (lol, or in your case the dog?)”, one simply treats all thoughts the same, with detached awareness.

This is also the inner meaning of Jesus’s suggestion, do not judge. The moment you judge, you are identifying with the dualistic mind, rather than the plenary awareness, which he refers to as “the father”. The master Osho has a nice 3 point formula to keep in mind in this regard, relax, watch, don’t judge.

Another useful metaphor is to imagine yourself sitting on a riverbank watching the water flow by. Each time the mind gets caught up in it’s “stream” of thoughts you have “fallen in” the river. Simply hop back on the bank each time you notice you have “fallen in”. With practice one slowly, slowly falls in less and less until at some point the river stops, and reality “appears”, this is true awakening.

Avidya (ignorance of reality) is nothing more than a state of mind, in the relative sense, in which the mind/thoughts/ego, which are themselves temporary phenomena, are taken to be real. In doing so, in taking the subjective self to be real, duality arises. Both arise simultaneously, as when you awaken in the morning both the relative I and the world appear.

You say the Self is not real. As I have suggested to others, what is meant by that depends on your definitions of Self and reality. Until one awakens, such definitions are simply mental concepts, descriptions or labels.

It is the same with the apparent paradox of Christianity saying there is a monotheistic God, Yahweh (Hebrew Tetragrammaton - that which causes to be) or Jehovah (Latin - I am that I am), and the Buddhist position that there is no God/Self (Anatta - no self).

Both are simply conceptual expressions in the relative dualistic language of the mind and are resolved in the state of Self Realization/ Enlightenment, which is beyond the mind.

You go on to say no one does get enlightened and no one ever did. This is both true in the absolute sense and misleading in the relative sense. And again it depends on what your definition of enlightenment is. You say this is something you have “realized”. Respectfully I would suggest that you are using the term in the western sense of intellectual understanding. In the same sense that you have “realized” the Self is not real. And here is the test, your beliefs change, understanding changes, insight and even intuition are subject to change, but when you realize the Self in the context that I am using it, in the same context that all awakened beings use it, the Self is reality, eternal and unchanging.

If you explore the enlightenment/self realization/awakening stories of the following you will see that relatively they have a lot in common. That from the relative viewpoint, they occurred at a certain age, at a certain place/location, at a certain time/date, and that following the “event”, they attempted to guide others to attain “it”. Further, by and large, they use relative terms such as Love, Freedom, Heaven, Moksha (Liberation) - you get the drift, it is incredibly wonderful, mystical and beautiful beyond what words/language/concepts can describe.

Siddhartha Gautama
Laozi
Ramana Maharshi
Nisargadatta Maharaj
Osho

I haven’t included Jesus as the moment of his enlightenment hasn’t been clearly documented. Although he clearly fits into the category of enlightened masters.

It is also eternal life, but not in the bodily sense, as some Christian sects erroneously believe. This is not to say that advances in technology won’t lead to longer lives, Shakyamuni Buddha said in the Do-de Kalpa Zangpo [Bhadrakalpa Sutra - Eng. - The Fortunate Aeon] that at the time of the Maitreya’s manifestation, humans will have lifespans of 80,000 years, but perhaps this text was not meant to be taken literally (wink,wink, Kathie, will respond to your comments soon, insha’Allah)

As I have elsewhere suggested Jen, the only way to really know whether enlightenment is possible is through direct “real”ization. Others can only shine the light on the path, it is you who must walk it. All sentient beings are ultimately responsible for their own awakening/salvation. Part of that path is learning discrimination, determining which system/technique/sadhana is best for you, which teachers are genuine, and which are not. Genuinely enlightened teachers are rare, but then so are genuine disciples/seekers lol, but God is no miser, if your heart is pure, if you earnestly seek Self/God Realization above all else, you can find out, in this life, directly, the answer to Ramana’s question “who am I”…

Someone once said there are four categories of people, and gave appropriate responses to each. It would be helpful for you to discriminate which category any potential teacher fits into…

"Knows but doesn't know he knows... asleep, wake him up.
Knows he doesn't know... teach him, good man.
Doesn't know he doesn't know... a fool, avoid him.
Knows he knows... wise, follow him... "

Namaste/Kind Regards
tim

PS Here's some more good news. In the beginning of your journey you think there is a choice, heaven or hell. Then, a little further into your journey it seems the only choice is either heaven now, or heaven later. And finally, you realize it is, and was always, Heaven NOW. Will this happen for you Jen? Listen carefully to the opening lyrics of this song to find out who enlightenment happens to....do not underestimate the ineffable God of Love ;) lol;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHaA1beOwrY&ob=av3e

It is your destiny and your reality my beautiful friend.....

Buddhahood is an experience without limits. It can happen to the young, to the old, to the white, to the black, to man, to woman. It can happen to anyone who is ready to take a jump from outside into his own Self. But reaching into yourself you do not find meaning. You certainly find a tremendous ecstasy, you are drowned in peace and silence, you feel as if thousands of flowers are showering over you; it is majestic, it is a splendor, it is a miracle, it is mystery, but it is not meaning.

Meaning is for the ordinary things of the world, significance is for the inner. The inner is not a
commodity, it has no price. You cannot sell it, you cannot purchase it; nobody can give it to you and nobody can take it away from you. Its status is unique in the whole universe. Everything goes on changing continuously, just like a cyclone, but your being remains the center of the cyclone without ever changing; it remains just the same. -Osho

[Shadowman]

My dreamlike form
Appeared to dreamlike beings
To show them the dreamlike path
To dreamlike enlightenment. - Gautama - Kathy/Tarka #59


Hi Kathie,

Yes, quite so, and as long as you identify with a dreamlike form, you would be wise to follow Buddha’s dreamlike path to dreamlike enlightenment.

The question is, are you identified with a dreamlike mind/body/ego? Only you can really know the answer to this. If you really are free then by all means be as you are.



Hello Tim
Gotta ask...so can you walk through walls, know the mind of every sentient being, manipulate matter, produce emanations etc? I have heard that enlightened beings are able to do such things. That would be really nifty!! -Kathy/Tarka #85

Lol, Siddhi’s can and do occur as signposts along the journey home, the best advice is not to identify or get attached to them. Otherwise they simply strengthen the ego (which finds superpowers really nifty!). They can occur in association with Kundalini experiences. If one has not developed some degree of mental/ethical discipline, as taught in the early stages of Yoga, Christianity, Islam and Buddhism, problems can arise. The resulting energy tends to magnify whatsoever is in the mind, so if you live in love it is overwhelmingly beautiful, but if you still are prone to anger, hatred, desire, attachment, etc it can lead to painful lessons...

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! - Matt 6:22-23


One should not seek nor anticipate paranormal phenomena. They should be treated as all other transient phenomena are treated, with detached awareness. They are not the goal, but can arise as both a test or a confirmation depending on the circumstances.

Each individual’s journey to awakening is different. Siddhi’s may or may not be part of the journey, they are insignificant in comparison to the enlightened or awakened state.

In enlightened beings, remember there is no separate doer left, there is just an unimpeded vessel through which the totality does sometimes manifest “miracles”,
but these are still relative phenomena, and trivial compared to Self realization. Awakening brings the realization that manipulating “dreamlike matter” or producing “dreamlike emanations” or knowing the “dreamlike minds” of all sentient beings only occurs/appears in samsara to guide “dreamlike souls”.

Student “Master, can you walk on water and fly through the air?”

Master “Any leaf can float on water, any gnat can fly through the air,
we are concerned with a far more important matter.”

Namaste/Kind Regards
tim

[Shadowman]

Rather, it merely represents another fixation of identity in some sort of cosmic Self. Both self and Self need to be recognized as fantasies of interpretation on perception, with no inherent reality. -bob #40

There is no person or even Self, period. - bob #60

Who am I? Well the question takes me to the Self, where it has taken me for some time. The Self (capital S) being the Real, as opposed to the sense of separate self, me, the person. That was the Real but now it is not, that is what I am coming to realise. That the Self is not real either. ...and that is what, I think Bob is pointing to. -Jenci #57

"By gosh, I think she's got it!" -bob #62


Hi bob,

On the one hand you quote Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi, and then follow with statements which contradict their “teaching” such as those above. The following quotes may help clarify the term Self further;


D.: When the Upanishads say that all is Brahman, how can we agree with Shankara that this world is illusory?

B.: Shankara also said that this world is Brahman or the Self. What he objected to is one’s imagining that the Self is limited by the names and forms that constitute the world. He only said that the world has no reality apart from Brahman. Brahman or the Self is like a cinema screen and the world like the pictures on it. You can see the picture only so long as there is a screen. But when the observer himself becomes the screen only the Self remains.

Shankara has been criticised for his philosophy of Maya (illusion) without understanding his meaning. He made threestatements: that Brahman is real, that the universe is unreal, and that Brahman is the Universe. He did not stop with the second. The third statement explains the first two; it signifies that when the Universe is perceived apart from Brahman, that perception is false and illusory. What it amounts to is that phenomena are real when experienced as the Self and illusory when seen apart from the Self. The Self alone exists and is real. - Ramana Maharshi

The following quotes are from Wikipedia;

The Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra teaches the reality of an ultimate, immaculate Consciousness within each living being, which is the Buddhic "Dharmakāya" (essence of Truth), which is yet temporarily sheathed in obscuring defilement. This Dharmakāya, when viewed as intrinsically free from spiritual ignorance, is said to constitute Eternity, Bliss, the Self, and Purity in their perfect state. The use of the word "Self" in this sutra is in a way unique to this class of sutra (see: Ātman in Buddhism).

Ātman (IAST: Ātman, Sanskrit: आत्मन्) is a Sanskrit word that means 'self'. In Hindu philosophy, especially in the Vedanta school of Hinduism it refers to one's true self beyond identification with phenomena. In order to attain salvation (liberation) a human being must acquire self-knowledge (atma jnana) which is to say realise experientially that one's true self is identical with the transcendent self (paramatman) that is called Brahman.

In Vedas it means true knowledge, that one's (jiva's) self, or he himself as soul (atman) is identical (in quality sense) with Ultimate Reality Brahman (Vishnu). It is also referred to as Atma Jnana which is frequently translated as self-realization.

The Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra (written 2nd century CE) was very influential in the Chinese reception of the Buddhist teachings. This sutra was understood to postulate an underlying essence, though this sutra is ambivalent. The Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra states that Buddha-nature is everlasting, pure and blissful.

The self of which the Buddha speaks is said by him to be the "essential intrinsic being" (svabhava) or even "life-essence" (jīvaka) of each person, and this essential being is none other than the Buddha himself - "radiantly luminous" and "as indestructible as a diamond". The Buddha-nature is taught to be an ultimate, conceptually inconceivable, immortal reality.


Read the following quotes in purple from the link below. The section in the link entitled "Buddha-nature and True Self" is especially helpful in clarifying the Buddha's use of the term Self and what he meant by non self ie Anatta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_Sutra#Buddha-nature_and_True_Self



The Buddha, in the Fa-xian version of the text, points out that worldly beings who misapprehend the authentic Buddhist Doctrine... have the notion that there is no Self, and are unable to know the True Self.

On Buddha's teaching of "non-Self" (the "worldly self", which ultimately does not exist eternally, but obscures the True Self) and the tathagata-garbha, from the Nirvana Sutra:

When I have taught non-Self, fools uphold the teaching that there is no Self. The wise know that such is conventional speech, and they are free from doubts.

When I have taught that the tathagata-garbha is empty, fools meditatively cultivate [the notion] that it is extinction , subject to destruction and imperfect. The wise know that it is [actually] unchanging, stable and eternal.

... just as cow's milk is delicious, so too is the taste of this [Nirvana] Sutra similar to that. Those who abandon the teaching given in this sutra concerning the tathagata-garbha are just like cattle. For example, just as people who intend to commit suicide will cause themselves extreme misery, [U]similarly you should know that those ungrateful people who reject the tathagata-garbha and teach non-Self cause themselves extreme misery.


Namaste/Kind Regards
tim

[Sebastion]

Hi Tim:

It certainly appears that the last paragraph of your previous post would confirm what I have said in an earlier post.

"Life essence" of each person (is) "radiantly luminous" and "as indestructible as a diamond".

How could that possibly be known as a truth if it was not an awareness which resulted from an out of body state? I would proffer to you that one has to be out of the body and experience yourself as being radiantly luminous to fully understand the implications.

[greybeard]

While leaving to Tim to give you a definitive answer Sebastion
Dr Hawkins said his state in non locational, omnipresent-- timeless state.
He said people speak to the body because thats the way it is here.--- non location.
Also an ilumined "soul" as I understand is ilumined from inside.
Yogananda said it was like the lights of a million suns (inside) in meditation.
So neither agreeing nor disagreeing Seb but it does seem that the luminosity/effulgence can be seen from inside and outside.

Regards Chris

[Sebastion]

I agree with everything you have posted and that's where semantics becomes extremely confusing. It has been stated many times on this forum that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. Spirit comes into the body to give it life. Spirit exits the body for the last time and the body is dead.

Who is to say that the spirit cannot leave the body to remember?/ re-experience itself as pure essence while retaining a body in 3d?

Awareness at that frequency is not readily conducive to any vocabulary and at best, only strongly hinted at. Hence words become nearly completely useless. It has to be experienced to be fully understood and that is something only you can do for yourself. It is an alone process and none will there be who can make words for you of it. You will simply know.





While leaving to Tim to give you a definitive answer Sebastion
Dr Hawkins said his state in non locational, omnipresent-- timeless state.
He said people speak to the body because thats the way it is here.--- non location.
Also an ilumined "soul" as I understand is ilumined from inside.
Yogananda said it was like the lights of a million suns (inside) in meditation.
So neither agreeing nor disagreeing Seb but it does seem that the luminosity/effulgence can be seen from inside and outside.

Regards Chris

[another bob]

Rather, it merely represents another fixation of identity in some sort of cosmic Self. Both self and Self need to be recognized as fantasies of interpretation on perception, with no inherent reality. -bob #40

There is no person or even Self, period. - bob #60

Hi bob,

On the one hand you quote Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi, and then follow with statements which contradict their “teaching” such as those above.


Hiya Tim!

For one who has truly seen, there is no contradiction. Both self and Self are purely mental constructs, cognitive obscurations, figments of this human dream. However, It's nearly impossible to explain to a dreamer in the midst of the dream that they are still dreaming. The only way, it seems, would be to take them out of the dream, and of course that time will come for all -- no need to fret about it while we're still here. We're here to experience the dream, not to escape from it into fantasies of "enlightenment".

On the subject of apparent contradictions, when presented with a copy of "I Am That", Nisargadatta read through a few passages, and exclaimed, "Did I say that? That's not correct at all!" Moreover, he himself once proclaimed that there is no such thing as enlightenment (as did the notorious Osho, whom you also quoted). The "enlightenment" that most babble on about is an event in human consciousness, and whatever happens in human consciousness (to quote our Friend Nisargadatta) is an hallucination. Your clinging to it merely solidifies another self-image, which in turn requires the kind of defense you've been mounting here.

And speaking of Ramana -- David Godman, Ramana Maharshi's chief chronicler, has remarked that Ramana regularly contradicts himself, depending on the audience he is addressing. Adyashanti notes that he often contradicts himself too, so that the listener will not get stuck cherishing absolute views.

Perhaps Rumi provided a clue to the matter:

"This Love is beyond the study of theology,
that old trickery and hypocrisy.
If you want to improve your mind that way,

sleep on.

I've given up on my brain.
I've torn the cloth to shreds
and thrown it away.

If you're not completely naked,
wrap your beautiful robe of words
around you,

and sleep."

Having shared the above, I am stepping out of this thread. If you want to continue to reify temporary "spiritual" experiences in dreamland into some kind of ultimate finality, have at it -- it's all play anyway!

:yo:

[Shadowman]

Forgive me please but there is something here that I would like to put forth for your consideration. You need not believe a word of it but at least consider it.

Anotherbob has experienced at least two NDE's and hence gained tremendous knowledge as a result from direct experience and I would submit to you that they were out of body as well. -Seb #86

Hi Seb,

In the enlightened state of Self realization there is nothing to forgive, nothing to believe, and no separate I or mind to believe it.

NDE’s are subjective experiences within duality, as are all experiences of life and death, or of being “inside” or “outside” of a body. As long as there appears to be a subjective thinking observer, separate from whatsoever is observed, be it physical objects, emotions, concepts, unimaginable light, time, space, God(s), demons, angels, buddha’s, ghosts, aliens, etc you have not realized the Self, and are caught in the illusions of maya/mind/samsara.

No need to take mine, or bob’s, or anyone else’s word for it, do a little research, but remember, theory without practice does not lead to realization,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry

My experiences all came as a result of my ability to astral/soul travel as I was born with that ability, as is everyone. My desire to find "god" became an all consuming passion at around 28 years of age. Earthly searching was fruitless for me so my only recourse was to develop my astral abilities beyond the astral to go beyond, hence soul travel.

I must second what Anotherbob has stated because it was the truth as I found it to be. When I went into much higher spiritual regions, I was exposed to unimaginable Light, unimaginable raw energy and ultimately Love beyond imagination-absolute, complete, unconditioned. - Seb #86

"Life essence" of each person (is) "radiantly luminous" and "as indestructible as a diamond".

How could that possibly be known as a truth if it was not an awareness which resulted from an out of body state? I would proffer to you that one has to be out of the body and experience yourself as being radiantly luminous to fully understand the implications - Seb #96

Time, mind and space are aspects of duality/maya. The Self transcends time, mind and space. Hence it neither comes nor goes anywhere, begins nor ends, seeks nor questions, is here nor there. The Self cannot be measured or cognized in duality, nor can it be “known” or “perceived” by the ego or mind. It is neither light nor darkness, nor is it manifest energy at any point on the electromagnetic spectrum, raw or otherwise.

Whilst still in duality it is possible to perceive a manifest form of God as an unimaginable light, unimaginable raw energy, absolute love etc, but this is not the Self, which can only be realized, not perceived.

Who is to say that the spirit cannot leave the body to remember?/ re-experience itself as pure essence while retaining a body in 3d? -Seb #98

Lol, bob apparently. But seriously, enlightenment or Self realization does not so much require leaving the 3d body, as awakening to the fact that you never were “in” the body, or “in” time, or “in” space, or more particularly “in” the mind. Thanks for your thoughtful comments, humility and kindness Sebastion,

Namaste,
tim


Both self and Self are purely mental constructs, cognitive obscurations, figments of this human dream. - bob #99

Hi bob,

You appear to be confusing the finger pointing at the moon with the moon itself, so to speak. While the word Self is a mental construct, that which it is indicating towards is not, as is indicated by all realized beings so far quoted on this thread.

The jiva which is mind, is in reality the pure Self; but, forgetting this truth, it imagines itself to be an individual soul and gets bound in the shape of mind. So its search for the Self, which is itself, is like the search for the sheep by the shepherd. But still, the jiva which has forgotten itself will not become the Self through mere mediate knowledge. By the impediment caused by the residual impressions gathered in previous births, the jiva forgets again and again its identity with the Self and gets deceived, identifying itself with the body, etc. Will a person become a high officer by merely looking at him? Is it not by steady effort in that direction that he could become a highly placed officer? Similarly, the jiva, which is in bondage through mental identification with the body, etc., should put forth effort in the form of reflection on the Self in a gradual and sustained manner; and when thus the mind gets destroyed, the jiva would become the Self. -Ramana Maharshi

I've given up on my brain.
I've torn the cloth to shreds
and thrown it away.

You are right, Rumi does provide a clue, The Self is the I that is left once all illusory attachments/identifications have been given up, the brain/mind/thoughts/ clothes/body etc. That I, unlike the thinking I/ego, is not a mental construct, it is entirely beyond the mind.

Thanks again though for your input into this thread, you are obviously a talented and eloquent writer and “I” have immensely enjoyed your sense of humour, in this and other threads. Feel free to change your mind at any point, your comments are always welcome, even if we appear to sometimes be at odds,

Namaste,
tim

[Sebastion]

You have noticed no doubt also that I have stated words are useless. I have thought more deeply about all of this, especially the language, words, between you and Anotherbob.

From a certain point of view, I can see that even trying to discuss things this deep is a form of arrogance. For all that I have learned and experienced, I find that in many respects, I know nothing. I have made my peace with that and it has taken 25 years to do so.

Your post is patronizing and dismissive, lacking of any true depth in spiritual experience. Therefore, I find no need to bandy words around or wangle over fine and coarse. I am bowing out and shall enjoy the silence. Be well......





Forgive me please but there is something here that I would like to put forth for your consideration. You need not believe a word of it but at least consider it.

Anotherbob has experienced at least two NDE's and hence gained tremendous knowledge as a result from direct experience and I would submit to you that they were out of body as well. -Seb #86

Hi Seb,

In the enlightened state of Self realization there is nothing to forgive, nothing to believe, and no separate I or mind to believe it.

NDE’s are subjective experiences within duality, as are all experiences of life and death, or of being “inside” or “outside” of a body. As long as there appears to be a subjective thinking observer, separate from whatsoever is observed, be it physical objects, emotions, concepts, unimaginable light, time, space, God(s), demons, angels, buddha’s, ghosts, aliens, etc you have not realized the Self, and are caught in the illusions of maya/mind/samsara.

No need to take mine, or bob’s, or anyone else’s word for it, do a little research, but remember, theory without practice does not lead to realization,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry

My experiences all came as a result of my ability to astral/soul travel as I was born with that ability, as is everyone. My desire to find "god" became an all consuming passion at around 28 years of age. Earthly searching was fruitless for me so my only recourse was to develop my astral abilities beyond the astral to go beyond, hence soul travel.

I must second what Anotherbob has stated because it was the truth as I found it to be. When I went into much higher spiritual regions, I was exposed to unimaginable Light, unimaginable raw energy and ultimately Love beyond imagination-absolute, complete, unconditioned. - Seb #86

"Life essence" of each person (is) "radiantly luminous" and "as indestructible as a diamond".

How could that possibly be known as a truth if it was not an awareness which resulted from an out of body state? I would proffer to you that one has to be out of the body and experience yourself as being radiantly luminous to fully understand the implications - Seb #96

Time, mind and space are aspects of duality/maya. The Self transcends time, mind and space. Hence it neither comes nor goes anywhere, begins nor ends, seeks nor questions, is here nor there. The Self cannot be measured or cognized in duality, nor can it be “known” or “perceived” by the ego or mind. It is neither light nor darkness, nor is it manifest energy at any point on the electromagnetic spectrum, raw or otherwise.

Whilst still in duality it is possible to perceive a manifest form of God as an unimaginable light, unimaginable raw energy, absolute love etc, but this is not the Self, which can only be realized, not perceived.

Who is to say that the spirit cannot leave the body to remember?/ re-experience itself as pure essence while retaining a body in 3d? -Seb #98

Lol, bob apparently. But seriously, enlightenment or Self realization does not so much require leaving the 3d body, as awakening to the fact that you never were “in” the body, or “in” time, or “in” space, or more particularly “in” the mind. Thanks for your thoughtful comments, humility and kindness Sebastion,

Namaste,
tim


Both self and Self are purely mental constructs, cognitive obscurations, figments of this human dream. - bob #99

Hi bob,

You appear to be confusing the finger pointing at the moon with the moon itself, so to speak. While the word Self is a mental construct, that which it is indicating towards is not, as is indicated by all realized beings so far quoted on this thread.

Thanks again though for your input into this thread, you are obviously a talented and eloquent writer and “I” have immensely enjoyed your sense of humour, in this and other threads. Feel free to change your mind at any point, your comments are always welcome, even if we appear to sometimes be at odds,

Namaste,
tim

[realitycorrodes]

Apologies - have not bothered to read 6 pages worth.

If the original comment was true who is it that thinks they are separately writing such "nonsense" and to who do they think they are writing such "nonsense" or more importantly "WHY".

Sounds like "mind control propaganda" designed to make people passively accept the killing, suffering, injustice that goes on all around us!

For goodness sake!

To whoever wrote such nonsense, step into a burning fire and demonstrate your oneness with the flames - perhaps then you will genuinely become permanently one with whatever it is you are speaking about!

[Shadowman]

1. I am Enlightened to the Fact that I have a long way to go to become Enlightened... if that is even possible for a person even after a thousand life times. 2. Anyone who says they are Enlightened is speaking from complete Ego and thus proves they are not.
- GoodeTXSG #87

Hi GoodeTXSG/Corey,

1. The I that says this is the ego created by/within the mind. You need not wait 1000 lifetimes or even one lifetime to investigate thoroughly whether it is real or transient. All thoughts are transient phenomena, that which is aware of all thoughts is neither transient nor a phenomena. You are that . You have always been that . You will always be that.

2. Not all who become enlightened teach. But of those that do teach, most do speak of their awakening/enlightenment, and the way to it. There are always those who prematurely make the claim, but it would be unwise to “throw out the baby with the bathwater”.

In the suttapitaka, the Buddhist canon as preserved in the Theravada-tradition, a number of texts can be found in which the Buddha tells about his own awakening. In the Vanapattha Sutta (Majjhima, chapter 17) the Buddha describes life in the jungle, and the attainment of awakening.

According to a story in the Āyācana Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya VI.1) — a scripture found in the Pāli and other canons — immediately after his awakening, the Buddha debated whether or not he should teach the Dharma to others. He was concerned that humans were so overpowered by ignorance, greed and hatred that they could never recognise the path, which is subtle, deep and hard to grasp. However, in the story, Brahmā Sahampati convinced him, arguing that at least some will understand it. The Buddha relented, and agreed to teach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEBhikkhu_Nanamoli1995_2-0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha#Enlightenment



More recent examples of documented awakening/enlightenment in their own words are by Ramana Maharshi, Osho and Nisargadatta Maharaj.

Thankyou for your comments and welcome to the thread,

Kind Regards/Namaste
tim

[Shadowman]

1. Isn't it so that without the 'I' the experience of separation and so the experience we have is impossible? We would be back in the source immediately.
It is thanks to the 'I' that we can experience this dream. So maybe it is not about sending it on a permanent vacation, but learning how to get the 'I' in proportion, to a point were the 'I' understands it's merely a tool to have this experience and nothing more.

2. Giving the 'I' some appreciation for it's existence would take away a big part of the feeling that one would like to send it on a permanent vacation .
- Wakytweaky #71

Hi Wakytweaky,

Welcome to the thread and thankyou for your input.

1. Yes, it is the thinking “I” that creates the illusion of separation. In actuality you have never, and will never, be separate from the source. It is also correct that the subjective thinking I gives rise to the experience/dream of duality, along with identification with a body/mind.

2. You may appreciate the thinking “I” if you wish, not for it’s existence though, for it does not exist (it is simply an appearance), and doing so may make life a little easier in the dream, at least temporarily. But you will still be subject to all that goes along with dreaming ie sickness, death, loss of loved ones, pleasure, pain and Justin Bieber. What makes the dream enticing is that the prison is both beautiful and ugly, cruel and kind, a tragedy and a comedy.

The downside of the I are the defilements of the mind which obscure your true nature, which is intrinsically loving. These defilements come about as a result of desiring and competing for the “positive” aspects of the dream, and aversion to the “negative” aspects of the dream. They include fear, anger, hatred, greed, attachment, envy and delusion/ignorance. They result in violence, war, poverty, cruelty, selfishness, sociopathy, psychopathy, etc.

One simplistic way of looking at it is this, there are two branch’s of spirituality, one is “You create your own reality” (which in this context really means creating a better dream) of which there are many current variants - the other branch is how to awaken from the dream, which is a much tougher gig, but with an infinitely better outcome. Of the latter branch, the techniques employed can largely be categorized into two paths or ways, the path of Love (devotion/action/service) and the path of Knowledge or Wisdom (enquiry/investigation/meditation). On the path of Love or selflessness the “mine” disappears, on the path of Knowledge the little I disappears. Both lead to Self Realization/Awakening/Enlightenment.

As long as you feel that you are enjoying the dream, by all means go ahead.
However the moment you have a “glimpse of Awakening” or a “tongue tip taste of the Tao” miracles abound and the ego dream pales in comparison, you stop becoming/seeking and start BEING. Then, wherever you are, heaven IS, right HERE right NOW...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKyBoYFUz4&ob=av2e


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MjelxPz5Og&ob=av2e


This is the true meaning of the Greek word apocalypse - the revealing of that which is transcendent, the Self or God. Not as something to be perceived as a separate entity, but realized as your own true being, your true Self.

Origin:
1125–75; Middle English < Late Latin apocalypsis < Greek apokálypsis revelation, equivalent to apokalýp ( tein ) to uncover, reveal ( apo- apo- + kalýptein to cover, conceal) + -sis -sis

Kind Regards/Namaste
tim

[Shadowman]

I know of no one whos free of desire,myself included,ive met a lot of practitioners over many years on the Buddhist path from many different traditions.So instead of getting rid of desire maybe simple discernment is the key,after all the Buddhas desire was to make all people equal to him,and thats a beautiful desire.In my opinion even without burning up ones karma,even with illusions still intact we can attain the Way through practise.After all we have the same nature.....regards
- Shijo. #88

Hi Shijo,

Likes and dislikes, or desires and aversions, belong to the body/mind/ego. As long as you identify with what you are not ie the body/mind/ego, desires and duality are a by product or consequence. Thoughts become habits, habits become behaviour, and behaviour becomes ingrained through repetition.

But I am suggesting that you are the Self, which is free from all desires and illusions. True discernment is realizing you are Self Existent Blissful Awareness, and not identifying with anything that appears within that field/ocean/sky of awareness.

Nirvana, freedom from suffering and delusion, is also freedom from all desire, so while to others Buddha may have appeared to act from a benevolent desire to free them from delusion, from his “point of view” “he” does not act at all -

Whoever says that the Tathagata goes or comes, sits or lies down, he does not understand the meaning of my teaching. -Diamond Sutra

Vipassana, just sitting in awareness, with the breath entering and leaving the nostrils as a focus point, is an excellent practice or way. So simple, so direct, so powerful. No books, no philosophies, no boggling paradoxes, just you and your breath, and hey, we all breathe right? (except for the Tathagata, lol)

You are quite right in saying we all have the same nature, the King pretending to be a beggar is still in reality the King,

Namaste/Kind Regards
tim

[Eram]

1. Isn't it so that without the 'I' the experience of separation and so the experience we have is impossible? We would be back in the source immediately.
It is thanks to the 'I' that we can experience this dream. So maybe it is not about sending it on a permanent vacation, but learning how to get the 'I' in proportion, to a point were the 'I' understands it's merely a tool to have this experience and nothing more.

2. Giving the 'I' some appreciation for it's existence would take away a big part of the feeling that one would like to send it on a permanent vacation .
- Wakytweaky #71

Hi Wakytweaky,

Welcome to the thread and thank you for your input.

2. You may appreciate the thinking “I” if you wish, not for it’s existence though, for it does not exist (it is simply an appearance), and doing so may make life a little easier in the dream, at least temporarily. But you will still be subject to all that goes along with dreaming ie sickness, death, loss of loved ones, pleasure, pain and Justin Bieber. What makes the dream enticing is that the prison is both beautiful and ugly, cruel and kind, a tragedy and a comedy.

Kind Regards/Namaste
tim

Hi Tim,

And thank you for your explanation and the beautiful songs.

There are things that I will have to chew on. Especially the "mine' and "little I" which are new concepts for me.

There is one thing I disagree on though, or maybe there is a bit confusion of what I meant when I said: The I is there to appreciate.

It is my understanding that God created the Universe with the purpose of knowing himself existentially in all it's aspects. The beauty and the Ugly, the sane and the insane, the under and the above.
Therefore he created the 'I' to experience all this in the dream of the Universe.
I may be wrong, but when the 'I' does not exist any longer, and I mean all of it. It would be impossible to experience all those things. I believe it would be impossible to even look outside your eyes and see the world. You would only see light. better even.... your body would cease to exist, because this is also a part of that 'I'.

I do believe that the enlightenment process you talk about is about quitting identifying with lots of the aspects of the experience in this Universe.
You stop identifying with anger, fear, a wish to do something, emotions, thoughts etc. etc. This will give you an experience of great relief and and love and a bigger identification with a truer part of the self.

The dream of the experience of life becomes clearer.

Now that you had this experience you call enlightenment, you can experience all the aspects of life in this Universe here on earth, but without the identification with them you always did.

The 'I' is still there, but not as dominant as it was.

This is great!!!

celebrate !!

[wynderer]

Tim --but it IS individual -- because an individual [you] is writing about it as an individual experience

i have no problem w/being one little bit of individualized consciousness, occasionally going Home to what/where you describe so well in your post

it's a gift to be given that spark of individuation, of individuality -- it's a great big Universe , & i'm looking forward to continuing to experience it as a individual [after i get away from this rather dark planet]-- i already know that i am part of the whole, the Oneness


This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is.

Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply.

Now, what is missing from the above description of the direct experience of enlightenment?

It is the pronoun, I, for in truth there is no I, either relatively or absolutely. I implies a separation from totality, as the first person singular. Whereas the adjective Self, implies being the same throughout, as the self evident united reality/totality/all that is, and is more appropriate at hinting towards the truth.

You are in reality this Self, all else is illusion.
Relatively, this is the end of suffering. This is the beginning of endless bliss.
Absolutely, all suffering is unreal. Only the blissful Self is real.
This is the eternal Truth.

[Shadowman]

From a certain point of view, I can see that even trying to discuss things this deep is a form of arrogance. For all that I have learned and experienced, I find that in many respects, I know nothing. I have made my peace with that and it has taken 25 years to do so.

Your post is patronizing and dismissive, lacking of any true depth in spiritual experience. Therefore, I find no need to bandy words around or wangle over fine and coarse. I am bowing out and shall enjoy the silence. Be well......
-Seb # 101


Hi Seb,

I was not so much dismissing your OBE as simply pointing out that it was still an experience in duality, at least in the way that it was described when you said;

“When I went into much higher spiritual regions, I was exposed to unimaginable Light, unimaginable raw energy and ultimately Love beyond imagination” - #86

But you are right, the difference may just be in semantics. The description you offered earlier resonated more clearly,

”I understand completely what you have said and agree deeply. But I have refrained until now, for my own reasons, to mention that I merged with the Heart of the One, 24 years ago.” - #63 Unravelling Thread

You are probably familiar with the expression “If you meet the Buddha on the road, then kill him”, which just means any objective form, no matter how divine or dazzling, is not your true Self. That’s all I was suggesting, I was not attempting to devalue what was clearly a profound experience for you. Prior to awakening I also had some unusual paranormal experiences in duality, which were taken as signposts that I was on the "right track" ( and some that were just plain weird, lol).

Ramana Maharshi's take on this may also be helpful;

16. What are the factors to be kept in view in dhyana?

It is important for one who is established in his Self (atma
nishta) to see that he does not swerve in the least from this
absorption. By swerving from his true nature he may see
before him bright effulgences, etc., or hear (unusual) sounds
or regard as real the visions of gods appearing within or
outside himself. He should not be deceived by these and
forget himself. - Ramana Maharshi

In post #98 you mentioned,

“It has been stated many times on this forum that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. Spirit comes into the body to give it life. Spirit exits the body for the last time and the body is dead.”

So, in that light, enjoy the following Glastonbury Live version of the song “Spirit”, "...it ain't why why why why why, it just IS". Anyway thanks for your comments, and enjoy the silence. If you ever change your mind your comments are always welcome,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzLQ8xOa9Q

Namaste/With Love
tim

[Shadowman]

1. If the original comment was true who is it that thinks they are separately writing such "nonsense" and to who do they think they are writing such "nonsense" or more importantly "WHY".

2. Sounds like "mind control propaganda" designed to make people passively accept the killing, suffering, injustice that goes on all around us!

For goodness sake!

3. To whoever wrote such nonsense, step into a burning fire and demonstrate your oneness with the flames - perhaps then you will genuinely become permanently one with whatever it is you are speaking about!
-realitycorrodes #102


Hi realitycorrodes,

What odd comments for someone with such exquisite taste in non sense*;

To see a world in a grain of sand
Heaven in a wild flower
To hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour
- William Blake

Whoever says that the Tathagata goes or comes, sits or lies down, he does not understand the meaning of my teaching. - Buddha

Foxes have holes and birds have their nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head and rest. - Jesus

1. Thinking, writing, writer and reader are not separate in the “non sense”* state. As stated in the OP there is, in reality, no separate doer. The question itself wrongly asserts separation exists, where it does not. In the enlightened non dual state there is no why, there is only loving awareness, which just IS, see song above.

(*“non sense” here means - beyond the 5 physical senses and the sixth sense of mind ie the state of pure awareness)

2. Quite the opposite. Killing, suffering and injustice stem from delusion ie identification with limited forms ie body/mind/race/religion/class/species/gender. Genuine unconditional love arises from the realization that you are Self/God/All That Is. As all, you treat all with boundless love and compassion, at least from the point of view of “others”.

For those that are still in subject/object existence, ethical and moral harmony is promoted by statement’s such as,

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Love God, and love one another.

What goes around, comes around.

In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

Let go of anger.
Let go of pride.
When you are bound by nothing
You go beyond sorrow.

3. As part of the all, the body is treated with kindness. Oneness is expressed with wisdom, kindness, compassion, forgiveness, humility, honesty, sacrifice, patience, humour, joy, gentleness, and unconditional love, not with foolishness.

Self Realization is abundantly self evident and eternal, it requires neither demonstration nor confirmation.

Thankyou for your comments and welcome realitycorrodes. A more complete reading of the thread may give further insights should you feel so inclined,

Cheers/Namaste
tim

[markpierre]

Is there another word for irony?

[Fred Steeves]

on the lighter side . . .


4KXidr0z1RY


Priceless!

[Shadowman]

Coming from the far side here, what if...The name of the game is for Consciousness to purposely lose itself in the farthest reaches of it's own Mind, the deep wilderness. The only possible way back is a deeply implanted homing beacon, so to speak. Some aspects of Consciousness may discover this immediately and head right on back home, some may wander aimlessly for eons. I suspect we're in the latter group.

Either way, in this case there is no such thing as enlightenment. There is only a noticing, and then a following of this beacon as we begin to dimly comprehend it's meaning. We begin following it only at that magical point of finally realizing we have nothing else to turn to. Absolutely nothing.

This beacon is nothing but the memory of who we truly are. As we erratically home in, we can always continue the game and stop comfortably at any point, fooling ourselves that we are home. Or we can order Scotty to engage warp nine and end it. Game over.

Then it's story time.(LOL)

Cheers,
Fred - #74

Hi Fred,

Interesting choice of terms. A beacon is a guiding light.

En* light en men t is both the light (awareness) in "hu"* mans, and a description of the “arrival home”. You say there is no such thing as enlightenment. What word would you use to describe Consciousness that has “returned home”? Or one who has
"re membered" who they truly are?

I certainly agree people can fool themselves that they are home before they are, but this does not preclude the possibility that others do complete the journey “home”.

Sadhana/Meditation/Self Enquiry/Devotion are simply ways to accelerate (warp nine, lol) the journey/process. Thanks for your comments and welcome,

Cheers,
tim

* en - a prefix occurring originally in loanwords from French and productive in English on this model, forming verbs with the general sense “to cause (a person or thing) to be in” the place, condition, or state named by the stem.

* Hu - or Huwa is a name for God in Sufism. Literally: He. God.

In Sufism Hu or Huwa is the pronoun used with Allah or God, and is used as a name of God. Allah Hu means "God, Just He!" In Arabic Allah means God and with Hu, as an intensive added to Allah, means "God himself." Hu is also found in the Islamic credo La Ilaha Ila Allah Hu: "There is no God but Allah," or in Sufi interpretation "There is no reality, except God", or in La Ilaha Ila Huwa meaning "There is no god but He"

Non-Muslims may speculate that the pronoun when used by the Sufi (and Muslim) is simply a shorter form of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton due to the similarities between Sura Al-Ikhlas 112:1 in the Quran [3] and Deuteronomy 6:4 in the Hebrew Bible.

*man - Skt. manuh, Avestan manu-, O.C.S. mozi, Rus. muzh "man, male"). Sometimes connected to root men- "to think" (see mind)

[Shadowman]

Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response. Preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

One purpose of this thread is to inspire you to move into silence/stillness, to transcend the mind, whereupon Self Realization/Enlightenment is self evident,

Namaste/With Love
tim

"The more you talk about it, the more you think about it, the further you are from it" - Sosan, Hsin Hsin Ming

"Be still, and know that I am God" - Psalms 46:10

"Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know." -Lao Tzu

One should gradually, gradually attain quietude with
the intellect (buddhi) held steadfast and the mind sunk in the
Self, allowing no thought to arise. - Bhagavad Gita 6:25

23. Is it any use reading books for those who long for release?

All the texts say that in order to gain release one should
render the mind quiescent; therefore their conclusive teaching
is that the mind should be rendered quiescent; once this has
been understood there is no need for endless reading. In order
to quieten the mind one has only to inquire within oneself
what one’s Self is; how could this search be done in books?
One should know one’s Self with one’s own eye of wisdom.
The Self is within the five sheaths; but books are outside them.
Since the Self has to be inquired into by discarding the five
sheaths, it is futile to search for it in books. - Ramana Maharshi


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsin_Hsin_Ming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching

[Shadowman]

So now that you know all about it, is it attractive enough? What would you exchange for that?

Ev'rything.

This reminds me of a story from Christ about a man who sells everything in order to buy this property where he found the treasure...
This is our true treasure and that`s what was meant when spoken about building your treasure in heaven...

Hi Beren,

Spot on. We must relinquish our identification with all that we are not, body, thoughts, concepts, ego, person, emotions, pains, pleasures (ie sell everything), in order to realize the immortal treasure that we are - Love, Awareness, uncaused Bliss,

Thank you for your insights, and welcome,

"Love, love and see what happens" - Brilliant,
(You throw your love to all the strangers, and caution to the wind...)

Namaste,
tim

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
- Jesus Matt 6:19

“It takes love over gold, and mind over matter, to do what you do that you must,
When the things that you hold, can fall and be shattered, or run through your fingers like dust...” - Mark Knopfler


"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find;
knock and the door will be opened to you...” - Jesus Matt 7:7

"And you go dancing through doorways, just to see what you will find,
leaving nothing to interfere, with the crazy balance of your (M)mind..." -Mark Knopfler



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyEEOxDTCRM

[Shadowman]

So now that you know all about it, is it attractive enough? What would you exchange for that?

Ev'rything.

Hi Meeradas,

To one of few words, pregnant with meaning and wisdom, I shall simply respond - indeed,

With Love,
tim

'A single word is sufficient to reveal the truth.' - Shin-hut, Open Secret, Wei Wu Wei

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13033759/Open-Secret-Wei-Wu-Wei

[Shadowman]

Nothing Real Can Be Threatened,
Nothing Unreal Exists!
Therein Lies The Peace Of GOD!!

From A Course In Miracles!

HUGS...........Godiam

Hi Godiam/Luke,

Big hugs to you my friend, sorry for the delay, choose your cat, lol,

With Love,
tim

https://images.nonexiste.net/popular/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Tiger-Hugs.jpeg

http://www.coolfreeimages.net/images/hugs/hugs_05.jpg

[Shadowman]

This is a picture taken of an event................

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/blsippa.jpg
Endless, nah........
Eternal, well.........
All is well
Jorr

Hi Jorr,

Thanks for your insight and the beautiful song "Hunting high and low".
You are an enigma wrapped in a riddle sporting feathers and a beak, min bror, ;).

Every day is a good day
tim

[ljwheat]

At what point dose a tiger in nature with out man’s words to ponder, become enlightened? I am "TIGER"

Enlightened tiger? What is enlightened in nature that needs enlightened that simply accepts being the energy that is. Pure tiger, pure energy flower, pure energy a tree, bug, bird, air, mineral, the forming of energy or all things, except man with his “I have to be enlightened to be the energy I think I see. “ tiger asks another tiger what is it to be a tiger? Man only needs to be something--- even enlightened is better than just being a man.

What in nature is not enlightened of its energy of being energy in the form it has manifested itself in at the moment. Dose a baby need to be enlightened to be birthed into this world, then why dose it need enlightenment to leave? Pure coming in pure going out energy in its being to be. A peace of source.

A spark of life in 3D, a spark of “is” in 7D just different levels of dimensions same pure energy, just different expressions. Enlightened or not ---will not effect this energy no matter how hard you think you rap your head around the word enlightenment. Its all vanity for man, Nature has not suffered this insanity of being just man +.

It might be because of all this BLA, BLA, BLA. Much speaking instead of being man. Tower of babble ring any bells for anyone? The Gods didn’t say “let us go down and confound the speaking of nature,”--- only men. “Why” ? because they were afraid what we would become if we were allowed to become just (MEN). Greater than even the Gods. Who are stuck in 4D. MEN free will to move between dementions and Gods and prison keepers under any lable. shhhh its a secret! :doh: oooops :tape:

[Shadowman]

"God brings good and evil" is stated in the OT somewhere. But after a lifetime of searching I now believe that we were created by the "gods" mentioned in the OT and Sumerian tablets and other places.

But what created them and all of creation. There's no way of knowing that. If we spoke with the advanced celestial ancestors they might have some idea, or not, as even they can not know endless space and time. imo.

There is evil in existence and may be a creation of our consciousness or just inevitable which is easy to see. Our concern is to end it to the extent that we can, or at least give it our best shot.

P.S. Or maybe nothing was created and everything came about and comes about through an always-was force that just set off reproduction and cycles in everything. And one somewhat intelligent group set itself up as being superior to other groups and so it goes on with life teeming is unending space.

Hi East Sun,

See my post #1671 on Chris’s enlightenment thread, as well as gripreapers excellent post’s on this thread #20 and #22.

As long as you identify with the body/mind dualistic concepts like good and evil give rise to desire and fear. It is like the old snake/rope adage referred to by Ramana below. If you identify with “appearances” ie the body/mind (or snake) you are vulnerable and prone to fear. If you realize yourself as the totality of Pure being/Awareness, whose very nature is Love, you break the “bonds” of illusion.

Thoughts are like the individual frames in a movie which create the illusion of duality. Which is why when the mind becomes quiescent the illusory “movie” of duality stops, and the ever present screen is revealed; or if you prefer the the clear light of the projector, unfiltered/undistorted by the film (mind), is revealed;


2. If I am none of these, then Who am I?

After negating all of the above mentioned as ‘not this’,
‘not this’, that Awareness which alone remains — that I am.

3. What is the nature of Awareness?

The nature of Awareness is Existence-Consciousness-Bliss.

4. When will the realization of the Self be gained?

When the world which is what-is-seen has been removed,
there will be realization of the Self which is the seer.

5. Will there not be realization of the Self even while the
world is there (taken as real)?

There will not be.

6. Why?

The seer and the object seen are like the rope and the
snake. Just as the knowledge of the rope which is the substrate
will not arise unless the false knowledge of the illusory
serpent goes, so the realization of the Self which is the
substrate will not be gained unless the belief that the world
is real is removed.

7. When will the world which is the object seen be removed?

When the mind, which is the cause of all cognition and of
all actions, becomes quiescent, the world will disappear. - Ramana Maharshi

[Shadowman]

fallen spirits and demons are as real as the angels and us

they fell as low as they were high in the spiritual hierarchy

Hierarchical power structures, also known as pyramid schemes, are set up so that all of the wealth and resources flow to the few at the top, while those at the bottom struggle and compete for the scarcity which is implicit in such a design. Also implicit in this design, is that those who are competing with their brethren need to adopt the mandates of those at the top of the pyramid, and surrender their will and power to them.

To say that the spiritual realms are set up hierarchically, is derived from the same elite power mongers who wrote such a patriarchal pyramid into their instruction book, the bible, at the Roman Elite Council of Nicaea, and designed it to propagate their hierarchical power pyramid, which has nothing to do with spirituality, enlightenment, or unity with the divine in all things.

Fallen angels and spirits means that these souls fell from the top of the power pyramid and needed to subjugate themselves to those at the top in order to redeem their place in the hierarchy? I think not. BOTH polarities of light and dark, Yin and Yang, positive and negative, male and female, left and right etc. are part of the universal matrix of all things and to judge such energies as "evil" and separate only serves the patriarchal structure which has spent eon's trying to sell us that the opposite is to be severed from the whole and that the higher dimensions are hierarchical.

That is a lie in my opinion, and I'm not afraid to expose it for what it is

Hi gripreaper,

Thanks for your excellent contributions to this thread, both as quoted above and in your post #22. Your insights and wisdom are most welcome.

Nisargadatta's view quoted below confirms that while there are levels of understanding in the mind or consciousness,
there are no levels in Pure Awareness or Being, which also correspond's to the Taoist "Pu";

Q: Are there levels of awareness?
M: There are levels in consciousness, but not in awareness. It is of one block, homogeneous. Its reflection in the mind is love and understanding. There are levels of clarity in understanding and intensity in love, but not in their source. The source is simple and single, but its gifts are infinite. Only do not take the gifts for the source. Realize yourself as the source and not as the river; that is all. - Nisargadatta, I am that


Pu (simplified Chinese: 朴; traditional Chinese: 樸; pinyin: pǔ, pú; Wade–Giles: p'u; lit. "uncut wood") is translated "uncarved block", "unhewn log", or "simplicity". It is a metaphor for the state of wu wei (無爲) and the principle of jian (儉). It represents a passive state of receptiveness. Pu is a symbol for a state of pure potential and perception without prejudice. In this state, Taoists believe everything is seen as it is, without preconceptions or illusion.

Pu is usually seen as keeping oneself in the primordial state of tao. It is believed to be the true nature of the mind, unburdened by knowledge or experiences. In the state of pu, there is no right or wrong, beautiful or ugly. There is only pure experience, or awareness, free from learned labels and definitions. It is this state of being that is the goal of following wu wei.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#Wu_wei

Kind Regards/Namaste
tim

[Shadowman]

Now I seem to be typing out this post, and my question for the readers of this thread would be: which one of these characters gets enlightened?

That's an easy one : All of them!

Part of enlightenment is not passing judgement on a given situation....

Hi jcocks,

So true. Thanks for your wisdom, and welcome to the thread,

Namaste/Kind Regards
tim

[Rantaak]

This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is.

Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply.

Now, what is missing from the above description of the direct experience of enlightenment?

It is the pronoun, I, for in truth there is no I, either relatively or absolutely. I implies a separation from totality, as the first person singular. Whereas the adjective Self, implies being the same throughout, as the self evident united reality/totality/all that is, and is more appropriate at hinting towards the truth.

You are in reality this Self, all else is illusion.
Relatively, this is the end of suffering. This is the beginning of endless bliss.
Absolutely, all suffering is unreal. Only the blissful Self is real.
This is the eternal Truth.


Edit to add on 2/5/12

Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response, preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

With Love/Namaste
tim

Enlightenment is relative and therefore non-boolean. No one IS "Enlightened," the question is simply a matter of how "Enlightened," one is. And can that even be measured? I prefer the word, "Illuminated," myself.

Who finds their nature to measure-
-Who finds their fall at the end of a blade.

[Shadowman]

Tim --but it IS individual -- because an individual [you] is writing about it as an individual experience

i have no problem w/being one little bit of individualized consciousness, occasionally going Home to what/where you describe so well in your post

it's a gift to be given that spark of individuation, of individuality -- it's a great big Universe , & i'm looking forward to continuing to experience it as a individual [after i get away from this rather dark planet]-- i already know that i am part of the whole, the Oneness

Hi Wynderer,

Words and language can be paradoxical when hinting towards the absolute. So while I described in the OP an account of the direct experience of awakening I also suggested that this “experience” or realization occurs when the illusion of the separate relative individual observer disappears. So in the context used, experience does not denote perceived phenomena, but rather the realization of non dual plenary awareness or being, in which there is no individual.

It then becomes a question of identity. Am I the “individual” fingers typing on the keyboard, am I the “individual” mind expressing the realization in words, or are these just phenomenal appearances appearing in what I really am.

In other words am I the id or am I the entity. In the definitions below aspects of the definitions provided for both individual and entity can relate either to the ego/person/id or to the Self, so it can be confusing ie

ego/person/id = A single human being, a person, a single thing, corporeal

Self = indivisible entity, being, something that has real existence

Duality or illusion stems from identifying with transient phenomena, which includes the ego, or individual self. In the Self, in Reality, which is “complete” and “whole” there are no parts. You can’t go home, when you already are home and never left home. But the mind can create the illusion of being separate, and as you choose to view that individuality as a gift whereby you can experience the universe from that perspective, I wish you nothing but love and joy on your journey.

The beauty of Self Realization/Enlightenment/Nirvana is that Love and Bliss, do not depend on “getting away from this dark planet” or any other conditions or possibilities or circumstances, which may or may not occur in the “future”. It is simply realizing Here and Now, what you truly are eternally, and which can only be hinted at by words such as Truth/Existence/Awareness/Bliss. You are not a part of it - You are It!

Kind Regards/Namaste
tim

in•di•vid•u•al 
noun
1. a single human being, as distinguished from a group.
2. a person
3. a distinct, indivisible entity; a single thing, being, instance, or item.

id
noun Psychoanalysis .
the part of the psyche, residing in the unconscious, that is the source of instinctive impulses that seek satisfaction in accordance with the pleasure principle and are modified by the ego and the superego before they are given overt expression.

id origin
1924, in Joan Riviere's translation of Freud's "Das Ich und das Es," from L. id "it" (translation of Ger. es "it" in Freud's title), used in psychoanalytical theory to denote the unconscious instinctual force.

en•ti•ty 
noun, plural en•ti•ties.
1. something that has a real existence; thing: corporeal entities.
2. being or existence, especially when considered as distinct, independent, or self-contained
3. essential nature: The entity of justice is universality.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/individual?s=t


Some relevant quotes from Nisargadatta’s book I Am That -

M: Being the source of both, the self is beyond both knowledge and power. The observable is in the mind. The nature of the self is pure awareness, pure witnessing, unaffected by the presence or absence of knowledge or liking.

Have your being outside this body of birth and death and all your problems will be solved. They exist because you believe yourself born to die. Undeceive yourself and be free. You are not a person.

M: Events in time and space — birth and death, cause and effect— these may be taken as one; but the body and the embodied are not of the same order of reality. The body exists in time and space, transient and limited, while the dweller is timeless and spaceless, eternal and all-pervading. To identify the two is a grievous mistake and the cause of endless suffering.

Q: Whose facts? Yours or mine?
M: Yours. You cannot deny my facts, for you do not know them. Could you know them, you would not deny them. Here lies the trouble. You take your imagining for facts and my facts for imagination. I know for certain that all is one. Differences do not separate. Either you are responsible for nothing, or for everything. To imagine that you are in control and responsible for one body only is the aberration of the body-mind.

Q: Still, you have a body and you depend on it.
M: Again you assume that your point of view is the only correct one. I repeat: I was not, am not, shall not be a body. To me this is a fact. I too was under the illusion of having been born, but my Guru made me see that birth and death are mere ideas — birth is merely the idea: ‘I have a body’. And death — ‘I have lost my body’. Now, when I know I am not a body, the body may be there or may not — what difference does it make?

[Shadowman]

Enlightenment is relative and therefore non-boolean. No one IS "Enlightened," the question is simply a matter of how "Enlightened," one is. And can that even be measured? I prefer the word, "Illuminated," myself. -Rantaak #122

Hi Rantaak,

Thanks for expressing your views and welcome to the thread.

I was using the term Enlightenment in the absolute sense, synonymous with Self Realization, Awakening, Nirvana, Bodhi, Turiyatita, Brahman, Kingdom of Heaven, etc.

Not in the western sense of relative intellectual understanding. A more complete reading of this thread, or the links provided below, may provide further insights, if you are so inclined,

Kind Regards/Namaste
tim


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_Sutra#Buddha-nature_and_True_Self
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Ten_Epithets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_%28concept%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata

[greybeard]

I think we (I am) are fortunate to have Tim here-- not speaking of exerience which is based on subject--- object but from a state called enlightenment.

The Indian sages have been known to say "I am the totality all of it" Its not subject experiencing an object or seperate condition its "One with out a second"

Chris

[Rantaak]

Enlightenment is relative and therefore non-boolean. No one IS "Enlightened," the question is simply a matter of how "Enlightened," one is. And can that even be measured? I prefer the word, "Illuminated," myself. -Rantaak #122

Hi Rantaak,

Thanks for expressing your views and welcome to the thread.

I was using the term Enlightenment in the absolute sense, synonymous with Self Realization, Awakening, Nirvana, Bodhi, Turiyatita, Brahman, Kingdom of Heaven, etc.

Not in the western sense of relative intellectual understanding. A more complete reading of this thread, or the links provided below, may provide further insights, if you are so inclined,

Kind Regards/Namaste
tim


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_Sutra#Buddha-nature_and_True_Self


There is no such thing as absolute enlightenment in a world where velocity exists. Any sentiment proclaiming otherwise is a trap.

[Shadowman]

At what point dose a tiger in nature with out man’s words to ponder, become enlightened? I am "TIGER"

Enlightened tiger? What is enlightened in nature that needs enlightened that simply accepts being the energy that is. Pure tiger, pure energy flower, pure energy a tree, bug, bird, air, mineral, the forming of energy or all things, except man with his “I have to be enlightened to be the energy I think I see. “ tiger asks another tiger what is it to be a tiger? Man only needs to be something--- even enlightened is better than just being a man.

What in nature is not enlightened of its energy of being energy in the form it has manifested itself in at the moment. Dose a baby need to be enlightened to be birthed into this world, then why dose it need enlightenment to leave? Pure coming in pure going out energy in its being to be. A peace of source.

A spark of life in 3D, a spark of “is” in 7D just different levels of dimensions same pure energy, just different expressions. Enlightened or not ---will not effect this energy no matter how hard you think you rap your head around the word enlightenment. Its all vanity for man, Nature has not suffered this insanity of being just man +.

It might be because of all this BLA, BLA, BLA. Much speaking instead of being man. Tower of babble ring any bells for anyone? The Gods didn’t say “let us go down and confound the speaking of nature,”--- only men. “Why” ? because they were afraid what we would become if we were allowed to become just (MEN). Greater than even the Gods. Who are stuck in 4D. MEN free will to move between dementions and Gods and prison keepers under any lable. shhhh its a secret! :doh: oooops :tape:

Hi ljwheat/John,

Thanks for expressing your views and welcome to the thread.

The clue to the difference between incarnation in the animal kingdom and incarnation into human form is in the very name itself - human. See my post at #112.

Humans have the unique opportunity to dispel the illusion/delusion of identification with forms, be they physical, emotional, intellectual/conceptual or even spiritual. What you refer to as pure tiger, pure flower etc are not pure forms but rather the illusory or impermanent appearance of separate forms within duality.

In order to understand the the context in which I am using the term illusory vs reality it would be helpful to examine the links offered in the opening post.

You take the separation of forms to be pure or real, as long as you believe your waking state to be real.

As an analogy, say last night you dreamt you were a tiger. As long as you are dreaming both your form as a tiger, together with all the other forms in your dream, ie flowers, trees, bugs and birds, appear to be separate, “pure” and real. But upon awakening you see that in fact all of the forms were imagined in the mind of the dreamer and were part of the one dream. In that sense they were neither real nor separate.

Enlightenment is also described as awakening to the plenary non differentiated non dual substrate reality. It is like awakening from a dream. That which is realized, which defies all descriptions and definitions, but which is nevertheless variously called God, Self, Reality, Truth, Heaven, Nirvana, Brahman, etc, is both natural and real, as opposed to duality, which is illusory and unreal, and the cause of (apparent) suffering.

Enlightenment is not something that you become, it’s more like the recognition of what you truly are, once your illusions/delusions have been dispelled. So in that sense it isn’t about becoming special, it’s more like returning home, or being whole, or “getting healed” from a hallucination inducing illness.

If you are genuinely interested a more detailed reading of this thread and the links offered may lead you on a journey deeper down the rabbit hole towards real freedom, real peace and real security...

With Love/Namaste
tim


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg94cXAqPcs

[Shadowman]

Enlightenment is relative and therefore non-boolean. No one IS "Enlightened," the question is simply a matter of how "Enlightened," one is. And can that even be measured? I prefer the word, "Illuminated," myself. -Rantaak #122

Hi Rantaak,

Thanks for expressing your views and welcome to the thread.

I was using the term Enlightenment in the absolute sense, synonymous with Self Realization, Awakening, Nirvana, Bodhi, Turiyatita, Brahman, Kingdom of Heaven, etc.

Not in the western sense of relative intellectual understanding. A more complete reading of this thread, or the links provided below, may provide further insights, if you are so inclined,

Kind Regards/Namaste
tim


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_Sutra#Buddha-nature_and_True_Self


There is no such thing as absolute enlightenment in a world where velocity exists. Any sentiment proclaiming otherwise is a trap.

Hi Rantaak,

Consider the space inside a clay pot. It is not separate from space in general, it just appears to be confined by the form of the pot.

In this analogy your true Self is likened to space, the pot is your mind, and the "space" in the pot is your self/ego.

What is everywhere and eternal cannot be trapped, is not subject to the laws of physics, (which relate to manifest forms of energy, including light), and cannot be separated. It can only appear separate, by the workings of the mind (pot). You cannot "trap" space, you cannot "trap" or harm awareness. Only "forms" can appear to be trapped/controlled.

This is why Self Realization is absolute freedom. Freedom from fear and freedom from desire. Fear and desire relate to the self/ego, manifest as a separate mind/body, which can be "trapped".

Enlightenment is realizing you never were in the pot, you never were separate, you never were nor will be bound by forms, physical, or mental, or otherwise. To believe that you are a limited form is the fall from grace, the expulsion from "paradise", ie eating from the tree of relative knowledge,

With Love,
tim

[ljwheat]

Enlightenment is relative and therefore non-boolean. No one IS "Enlightened," the question is simply a matter of how "Enlightened," one is. And can that even be measured? I prefer the word, "Illuminated," myself. -Rantaak #122

Hi Rantaak,

Thanks for expressing your views and welcome to the thread.

I was using the term Enlightenment in the absolute sense, synonymous with Self Realization, Awakening, Nirvana, Bodhi, Turiyatita, Brahman, Kingdom of Heaven, etc.

Not in the western sense of relative intellectual understanding. A more complete reading of this thread, or the links provided below, may provide further insights, if you are so inclined,

Kind Regards/Namaste
tim


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_Sutra#Buddha-nature_and_True_Self


There is no such thing as absolute enlightenment in a world where velocity exists. Any sentiment proclaiming otherwise is a trap.

Hi Rantaak,

Consider the space inside a clay pot. It is not separate from space in general, it just appears to be confined by the form of the pot.

In this analogy your true Self is likened to space, the pot is your mind, and the "space" in the pot is your self/ego.

What is everywhere and eternal cannot be trapped, is not subject to the laws of physics, (which relate to manifest forms of energy, including light), and cannot be separated. It can only appear separate, by the workings of the mind (pot). You cannot "trap" space, you cannot "trap" or harm awareness. Only "forms" can appear to be trapped/controlled.

This is why Self Realization is absolute freedom. Freedom from fear and freedom from desire. Fear and desire relate to the self/ego, manifest as a separate mind/body, which can be "trapped".

Enlightenment is realizing you never were in the pot, you never were separate, you never were nor will be bound by forms, physical, or mental, or otherwise. To believe that you are a limited form is the fall from grace, the expulsion from "paradise", ie eating from the tree of knowledge,

With Love,
tim

very very, nicely put Tim, and thanks for share space with us all. John XXX

[Shadowman]

Hello Tim

Gotta ask...so can you walk through walls, know the mind of every sentient being, manipulate matter, produce emanations etc? I have heard that enlightened beings are able to do such things. That would be really nifty!! :cool:

Hi Kathie,

Came across the following word's from Osho which are relevant to your question;



in Osho on Zen Masters, Osho Zen Stories

Osho - The only miracle, the impossible miracle, is to be just ordinary. The longing of the mind is to be extraordinary. The ego thirsts and hungers for the recognition that you are somebody. Somebody achieves that dream through wealth, somebody else achieves that dream through power, politics, somebody else can achieve that dream through miracles, jugglery, but the dream remains the same: I cannot tolerate being nobody.

And this is a miracle — when you accept your nobodiness, when you are just as ordinary as anybody else, when you don’t ask for any recognition, when you can exist as if you are not existing. To be absent is the miracle.

This story is beautiful, one of the most beautiful Zen anecdotes, and Bankei is one of the superb masters. But Bankei was an ordinary man. Once it happened that Bankei was working in his garden. Somebody came, a seeker, a man in search of a master, and he asked Bankei, “Gardener, where is the master?”

Bankei laughed and said, “Wait. Come from that door, inside you will find the master.”
So the man went round and came inside. He saw Bankei sitting on a throne, the same man who was the gardener outside. The seeker said, “Are you kidding? Get down from this throne. This is sacrilegious, you don’t pay any respect to the master.”

Bankei got down, sat on the ground, and said, “Now then, it is difficult. Now you will not find the master here because I am the master.”

It was difficult for that man to see that a great master could work in the garden, could be just ordinary. He left. He couldn’t believe that this man was the master; he missed. We are all in search of the extraordinary. But why are you in search of the extraordinary? It is because you also long to be extraordinary. With an ordinary master, how can you become extraordinary, exceptional?

Bankei was talking, lecturing, and one man stood and asked about miracles. He belonged to some other sect, a sect which worked through mantras, holy names. Remember that a mantra is a secret technique to achieve more power. A mantra is not spiritual, it is political, but the politics are of the inner space, not of the outer.

The mind can become powerful if you narrow it down; narrowing is the method. The more narrow the mind, the more powerful it becomes. It is just like the sun’s rays falling to the ground. If you focus those waves, those rays, through a lens, fire can be created. Those rays were falling all spread out but now they have been narrowed down through the lens. They have become one-pointed, concentrated; now fire is possible.

The mind is energy, in fact, the same energy that comes through the sun, the same subtle rays. Ask the physicists. They say the mind has a voltage of electricity, that it is electrical. If you can focus the mind through a lens, the mantra is a lens, and you go on repeating Ram, Ram, Ram, or Om, Om, Om, or anything, just one word — if you go repeating and repeating and repeating it, and the mind’s whole energy is centered in that one word — it becomes a lens. Now all the rays are passing through that lens. Narrowed to one point it becomes powerful, you can do miracles.

Just by thinking you can do miracles. But remember, those miracles are not spiritual.Power is never spiritual. Powerlessness, helplessness, to be nothing, is spiritual;.power is never spiritual. This is the difference between magic and religion; magic is after power, religion is after nothingness. A mantra is a part of magic not of religion at all, but everything is a big mess, mixed up. People who are doing miracles are magicians, not spiritual in any way.

They are even anti-spiritual because they are spreading magic in the name of religion, which is very dangerous. Through a mantra the mind is narrowed; it is more narrowed, more powerful, and then anything can be done. There is only one thing you will miss — you will miss yourself. All miracles will be possible, the ultimate miracle you will miss. You will miss yourself because through narrowing down you can achieve an object.

The more the mind is narrowed, the more it becomes fixed to an object; it becomes objective. You are hidden behind and the object is outside. So if you are a man of mantras you can say to this tree, “Die,” and the tree will die; you can say to a man, “Be healthy,” and the disease will disappear, or, “Be unhealthy,” and the disease will enter — many things you can do. You can become somebody, and people will recognize you as a man of power but never a man of God.

A man of God is born when the mind is not narrowed at all, when the mind is not flowing in one direction but is overflowing in all directions. There is no lens, no mantra, just the energy flowing in all dimensions everywhere. That flowing energy, that energy overflowing everywhere, will make you alert about yourself because then there is no object. Only you, only subjectivity exists, and through you, you will become aware of God, not through any power.

This man asked Bankei, “What type of miracles can you do? My master, through mantra, through the holy name, can do miracles. He will stand on one bank of the river, and disciples will stand on the other bank with a paper in their hands, a half-mile distant, and he will write from here and the words will come on the paper on the other bank. This our master can do. What can you do?”

And Bankei said, “We know only one miracle here, and that is when I feel hungry I eat, and when I feel sleepy I sleep. Only this much.” Not much of a miracle. Your mind will say, “What type of a miracle is this? It is nothing to be proud of.” But I say to you Bankei has said the real thing.

That’s what a Buddha can do, that’s what a Mahavira is doing, that’s what a Jesus is to do. Only then is he a Christ, otherwise not. What he is saying is such a simple thing. He says, “When I am hungry I eat.” Is it so difficult that he calls it a miracle? I say it is difficult for you; for the mind it is the most difficult thing — not to interfere.

When you feel hungry the mind says, “No, this is a religious day and I am on a fast.” When you don’t feel hungry the mind says, “Eat, because this is the time every day that you eat.” And when the stomach is overfilled the mind says, “Go on eating, the food is delicious.” Your mind interferes.

What is Bankei saying? He is saying, “My mind has stopped interfering. When I feel hungry I eat, when I don’t feel hungry I don’t eat. Eating has become a spontaneous thing; the mind is not a continuous interference. When I feel sleepy I go to sleep.” No, you are not doing this. You go to sleep as a ritual, not when you feel sleepy. You get up as a ritual because it is brahmamuhurta, and you are a Hindu and you must get up before sunrise. Because you are a Hindu, you get up. Who is this Hindu? It is the mind. You cannot be a Hindu, you cannot be a Mohammedan; there is no sect for you but the mind. The mind says, “You are a Hindu, you must get up,” so you get up.

When the mind says, “Now it is time to go to sleep,” you go to sleep. You follow the mind, not nature. Bankei is saying, “I flow with nature; whatsoever my whole being feels, I do it. There is no fragmentary mind manipulating it, manipulation is the problem. You go on manipulating and this disturbance, interference, this manipulation from the mind is the problem.

Even in dreams you go on manipulating — ask the psychologists; they say while awake, you continue manipulating. The mind doesn’t allow you to see what is there, it projects; the mind doesn’t allow you to hear what is being said to you, it interprets.

Even in dreams you are false because the mind goes on playing tricks on you. Freud discovered that our dreams are also false. You want to kill your father so in the dream you don’t kill your father. You want to poison your wife but you don’t poison your wife even in a dream, you poison some woman who somehow resembles your wife. The mind is interfering continuously.I have heard that one man was saying to another, to his friend, “Did I dream last night! What a dream! I went to Coney Island — What delicious ice cream, such a tasteful dinner.I have never eaten such a thing in my whole life.”

The other man said,”You are kidding.You call that a wonderful dream? Last night I dreamt that on one side was Elizabeth Taylor, on the other side was Marilyn Monroe, both in the nude.
The other became excited and said, “Then why didn’t you call me?” The man said: “I called you, but your wife said you had already left for Coney Island.”

Even in dreams the mind goes on creating the world – Coney Islands, Elizabeth Taylors — and you become jealous even about another’s dream:Why didn’t you call me? Bankei is saying: “We know only one miracle. We allow nature to have its own course, we don’t interfere.” Through interference comes the ego: the more you interfere, the more you manipulate, the more you feel you are somebody.

Look at the ascetics — their egos are so refined and subtle, so shiny. Why? It is because they have interfered the most; you have not interfered so much. They have killed their sex, they have destroyed their love, they have suppressed their anger, they have completely destroyed their hunger and the feeling of the body. They have reason to be egoists: they are somebodies. Look in their eyes, there is nothing except ego.

Their bodies may be almost dead but their egos are at the supreme-most peak. They have become Everests. These monks and saints will not be able to understand what Bankei means.He says, “We know only one miracle — to allow nature to have its own course. We don’t interfere.” If you don’t interfere, you will disappear. Fighting is the way to be there. People come to me and ask how to drop the ego. I tell them, Who will drop it? If you try to drop it you will be the ego, and someday you will claim that you have dropped the ego. And who is this claimer, who is claiming it? This is the ego, and the most subtle ego always tries to pretend egolessness.

I also know only one miracle, to let nature have its course, to allow it. Whatsoever is happening, don’t interfere, don’t come in the way, and suddenly you will disappear. You cannot be there without resistance, fight, aggression, violence; the ego exists through resistance. This has to be understood very deeply — the more you fight, the more you will be there.

Namaste/With Love
tim

[greybeard]

This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is.

Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply.

Now, what is missing from the above description of the direct experience of enlightenment?

It is the pronoun, I, for in truth there is no I, either relatively or absolutely. I implies a separation from totality, as the first person singular. Whereas the adjective Self, implies being the same throughout, as the self evident united reality/totality/all that is, and is more appropriate at hinting towards the truth.

You are in reality this Self, all else is illusion.
Relatively, this is the end of suffering. This is the beginning of endless bliss.
Absolutely, all suffering is unreal. Only the blissful Self is real.
This is the eternal Truth.


Edit to add on 2/5/12

Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response, preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

With Love/Namaste
tim

PS To clarify the definition of enlightenment, in the context that the term is applied in the title of this thread, an examination of the following links may prove helpful, for those with more than just a casual interest;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_%28spiritual%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_realization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Ten_Epithets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_%28concept%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata


I smile-- here we have first hand knowledge and ----saying no more.
Thanks again Tim

Chris

[Shadowman]

I smile-- here we have first hand knowledge and ----saying no more.
Thanks again Tim
Chris


You're most welcome Chris. Silence is the greatest teacher, for those who are close to Heaven.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTyp9LCNRsEBHnqzosez01umrcFGFsmSAlnJqjcI7qxHETZHRId

Eternally/In Lak'ech
tim

PS
If you replace the word ring with mind in the following, you will appreciate the archetypal significance and wide subconscious appeal of the metaphor in Tolkien's Trilogy.

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAmrhM_P8jgmwMfM_6RRgG8YKedxO28Qry4qJJpmgfCh04UxQP

Of course similiarly both the Matrix and Lucifer may be interpreted as metaphors for the relative mind. So too Dragons and Serpents.

Which is why Neo is an anagram of One. Absolutely, we are eternally "One", so to speak, while relatively (and temporarily) we appear to have separate forms. It is the relative mind which creates the powerful illusion.

So, the trick is slaying the dragon without fighting it, yes?

[Shadowman]

It is worth remembering that unlimited being has the capacity to enter or experience existence from a limited perspective. While such a limited perspective is not, and can never be real (for what is real can never become unreal), experience from the limited perspective, can and does appear to be real.

As unlimited being from a limited perspective, it has the capacity to forget its unlimited absolute state.

However, as unlimited being, it has the capacity to know that it would forget it’s real state from the limited perspective.

As unlimited being, it has the capacity to again apparently enter the limited perspective, for the purpose of reminding those manifestations of the limited state, in a manner appropriate to their level of limitation (as they are unable to comprehend direct absolute communication from their limited state), that their real state is indeed absolute and unlimited, rather than relative and limited.

As time is a component of the limited state, the process of transition from limited and relative time bound consciousness, to absolute unlimited eternal being, can be either gradual, for those who have difficulty letting go of illusory identifications, or immediate ie in the twinkling of an eye, for those who are ready.*

An example of an avatar’s journey symbolizing this transition is Yeshua’s transcendence from the Son of Man (ifestation), symbolizing time based consciousness and material form, metaphorically the horizontal line of the cross; into the Son of God, symbolizing eternal being (Before Abraham was, I am) and the vertical line of the cross, which is the eternal now. At the point where the horizontal intersects the vertical is the “heart” of existence.

The heart, symbolizing the eternal God of Love, which is also eternal existence/awareness/bliss, unconditionally allows all, including limited perspectives. Sooner or later, but inevitably, love will lead you back to your true state;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN2rZPdxWNs


* 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

(It is not the time it takes to blink an eye: for you to see someone's eyes twinkle, light must travel through the front of their eye, be reflected off their retina, and then exit their eye.

Assuming (for the of ease of calculation) that you are standing close to that person so the transmission time from eyeball-to-eyeball can be regarded as instantaneous, and that a person's eyeball is 2.5 cm in diameter, the light would have to travel a distance of 5cm (or 1/20,000th or 2x10-4 of a kilometer).

Since the speed of light is 300,000 (or 3x105) km/sec, this means it would take or 1/6 x 10-9 seconds (ie 1/2 x1/3 x 10-4 x 10-5 seconds), or 1/6,000,000,000th of a second to make a person's eyeball twinkle: pretty fast, lol.)

In Lak'ech / Namaste
tim

[Mark]

Of course similiarly both the Matrix and Lucifer may be interpreted as metaphors for the relative mind. So too Dragons and Serpents.

Which is why Neo is an anagram of One. Absolutely, we are eternally "One", so to speak, while relatively (and temporarily) we appear to have separate forms. It is the relative mind which creates the powerful illusion.

So, the trick is slaying the dragon without fighting it, yes?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhybSfgPBK8

Amazing thread. Can't believe I never saw it before. Great discussions between people whose experience I respect.

I've never studied Buddhism as a practitioner. Therefore, I don't know a lot of the terms. I've been introduced to terms I never knew reading this thread. Like Turiyatita. I did not know the term, but I do know the space it describes.

I have been a part of the Shambhala path, as I used to go meditate at the center in Washington DC and have read the book by Chogyam Trungpa in regards to warriorship. Although they're really into the Bodhisattva aspect, they're more of a watered down version of Buddhism from my experience. I primarily practice Shamatha meditation when I engage in formal meditation. Generally, I meditate on the fly. While walking or driving or just sitting, or standing. It happens spontaneously.

I really resonate now to the understanding that all striving in regards to spiritual development is unnecessary. Life is to be lived. I really liked that long Osho quote about ordinariness as opposed to specialness. No powers necessary. Yes, they can be experienced, but do not hold on to them. The description in that thread about the supreme ego-ness of asceticism was really good.

I found this thread made me smile to read and hear in my mind the voices of friends and loved ones. Thank you, Tim.

[Sunny-side-up]

Hello tim, wonderful words of wisdom, thx
Avalon community wonderful words of wisdom, thx
So much mind and knowledge brought into the light by a wonderful post, thx tim
I/self have not even scratched all that has been posted here Yet, Nore have I watched these vid links of yours, will start tomorro!

PS To clarify the definition of enlightenment, in the context that the term is applied in the title of this thread, an examination of the following links may prove helpful, for those with more than just a casual interest;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_%28spiritual%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_realization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Ten_Epithets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_%28concept%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata
[/QUOTE]

What self would like to add to this post is in relation to some of the postings that mentioned power-Pyramids, how the Pyramid is seen by most. The power pyramid of the Illuminati kind, the all seeing eye is only of power to one and is so weak that the one has to perch on top of all others, all others that would sell there souls to be the perched one. This all seeing eye is a blind eye it only sees those that it would power over.

lets look at the true power pyramid, the one where my vision of God rests.

Invert the pyramid and now it is a cone. It sets perfectly on it's point which is it's base.
At the point/base you are very limited, as you rise and expand you become in-lightened, you find and know of more and more dimensions, you are expanded in knowledge and size of consciousness.

This pyramid as a Cone is unrestricted at it's top which is it's widest part. This wide part can expand and grow unrestricted and is of all power knowledge.
Light rises as so do our souls as we become in-lightened, we are lighter. self believes the widest part of the cone of consciousness can be reached where self can float with all seen below. At this point all that is above is the God self reflecting our total light back at us. We are not God and can never be, God is our total reflection and is as sweet as the most unimaginably tasty Ice-cream cone there ever could be.

so in this pyramid as individuals we rise our self, expand, lighten. the higher we go our horizon broadens and the light intensifies. Sees see more and is boarder to take it in. Self becomes able to move freer, self is let out of the box and becomes one, enlightened-fully.

This concept of the path of enlightenment and of Gods position in it comes to me/self from your post tim, so your post and others who joined in are to blame Doh

Only joking, but seriously what do you think of the inverted pyramid, the ALL SEEING POWER CONE of enlightenment?

(Those of you who know me can probably tell it's late where I am, so i'm rambling again)
I will try to make a simple drawing of this tomorro when i'm at my maine comp...
love and In-Lightener-ment to you all with Hugs

[Shadowman]

Hi Sunny-side-up,

Welcome to the thread and thankyou for your kind words and comments.

Both the all seeing eye pyramid, and your all seeing power cone, can be seen in two ways. Firstly from the point of view of relative knowledge ie as perceived by the individual mind, and secondly, from the point of view of absolute knowledge ie as symbols of the transition from duality to unity, from ego to Self, from the many (e pluribus) to the One (unum).

For one still identified with the relative mind and individuality, there will appear to be steps or stages or degrees of development , as is often the case with secret societies or religious groups. Such hierarchies are often subject to abuses of power, inherent in relying on an outside authority.

In your cone metaphor the limited self or point at the base is the ego, while the wide expanse at the top is your being. As the ego “rises” and “expands” (from it’s point of view), it “clears” like a cloud dissipating, leaving the ever present “sky” of being. Or if you prefer, as the ego disappears “all else is added unto you”, like a raindrop melting into the ocean of love.

By withdrawing the foundations for the ego, using various spiritual techniques, the momentum which causes it to continue to “appear” real, stops. Usually this happens briefly at first, before the thought structures underlying the ego reassert themselves. But with perseverance the true apocalypse, or revealing, manifests itself as full realization of your eternal source identity.

There are of course misunderstandings and misinterpretations of most symbols and metaphors for spiritual awakening, but this is a consequence of relative knowledge. Each can be understood at multiple levels, even by the same individual at different stages of their development.

So if you understand the all seeing eye as “thine single eye” of awareness, either within you, or within your “midst” you are on the right track.

If however it represents any external form, organization or entity, be it earthly, non-corporeal, extra-dimensional or extraterrestrial, acting as a dictatorial authority, demanding obedience, or imposing subservience by means of fear, guilt, secrecy or deception, then avoid it/them as far as possible.

Those who engage in such actions to control or limit the awakening of others are punished by their “sins”, as they will eventually come to understand.

Namaste/ In Lak’ech
tim

[Sunny-side-up]

In Lak'ech

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://pakalahau.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/inlakech_valdez_poem.jpg&imgrefurl=http://pakalahau.wordpress.com/2012/05/10/2012-in-lakech-luis-valdezs-mayan-inspired-poem/&h=213&w=360&sz=22&tbnid=RP3ggUc5E_TxsM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=152&zoom=1&usg=__yQMYnvnMDlFKSOC86SxqiNnnY3s=&docid=ga2PK4kPdbrzMM&sa=X&ei=5UejUcqxG8Oo0QX3goCQBQ&ved=0CDoQ9QEwAQ&dur=306


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Namaste
namaste

I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you where the ENTIRE universe resides,
I honor the place in you of light, of love, of truth, of peace,
I honor the place in you where if you and I are in that place then there is only one of us?

[greybeard]

This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is.

Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply.

Now, what is missing from the above description of the direct experience of enlightenment?

It is the pronoun, I, for in truth there is no I, either relatively or absolutely. I implies a separation from totality, as the first person singular. Whereas the adjective Self, implies being the same throughout, as the self evident united reality/totality/all that is, and is more appropriate at hinting towards the truth.

You are in reality this Self, all else is illusion.
Relatively, this is the end of suffering. This is the beginning of endless bliss.
Absolutely, all suffering is unreal. Only the blissful Self is real.
This is the eternal Truth.


Edit to add on 2/5/12

Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response, preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

With Love/Namaste
tim

PS To clarify the definition of enlightenment, in the context that the term is applied in the title of this thread, an examination of the following links may prove helpful, for those with more than just a casual interest;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_%28spiritual%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_realization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Ten_Epithets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_%28concept%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata



Felt like bumping this thread
Chris

[Shadowman]

John was asking if I'd done any video's and my response is reproduced below for anyone interested;

Hi John,

No video's for now. Here is an extract from my course notes for the one seminar held on 11/1/11 at 11:11:11.1. (lol, did 11.1 secs to make up 12 x 1's, another inside joke/symbol, as a rehearsal for another seminar to be held on 11/11/11 at 11:11:11, which did not eventuate). Further talks, and/or video's may happen spontaneously. (In your actions be timely - Lao Tzu)


Hello and welcome everyone.

Before we begin I’d like to make a few suggestions on how to gain the most benefit from this teaching; (read suggestions sheet)

Audio or video recording is not permitted. This is to prevent quotes from the teaching being misunderstood, misapplied or taken out of context and creating further obstacles and/or misunderstandings when passed on to others. Likewise, your personal perception of the teaching is for your own insight and realization, and is best not discussed with others. Interested or curious persons should be referred directly to the teacher.

Today’s teaching will include the following;

• A definition of reality. And a clarification of the definition in relative and absolute terms.
• An exploration of identity. Identification with transitory appearances vs identification with that which is eternal.
• An insight into the following words; Human, Enlightenment.
• Four simple, but powerful, free techniques to directly realize (not believe) your real unchanging identity.
• Two practical demonstrations to help you to differentiate between the real and the unreal, between beliefs and realization.
• One practical demonstration to show how the illusion of separation is created by identifying with the relative, dualistic mind.
• The obstacles to awakening and how to transcend them.
• The Cosmic Open Secret stated plainly and simply.
• A short question period.

Now, before we begin I’d like to clear up a few misunderstandings. The nature of direct realization is both subtle and sublime. No words can adequately describe it and any attempt to describe it will be filtered by your relative mind and it’s current beliefs. All human teachers, scriptures, ideas and parables should be treated as fingers pointing to the moon, not the moon itself. Look where the finger is pointing, and don’t get stuck on the finger (or message, or messenger).

The attachment to, and fighting over, previous “fingers” ie various holy persons, holy books, holy scriptures and holy places has caused untold suffering for humanity, animals and the environment. All as a result of misunderstanding.

All past realized beings have been misquoted, misunderstood and mistranslated at various times throughout history, even by those with good intentions. Belief systems and religious dogma have resulted as a consequence of this. Others who are still caught up in the illusion have chosen to exploit these systems for personal or political power and/or wealth.

The responsibility for your own realization is yours alone. No one else can do the work for you. No one can save you but yourself. Those who have realized before you may inspire you and shine a light on the path, but it is you that must travel that path. It is you that must awaken from the dream.

Now, here’s the really good news. To know the truth of who you are, to realize everlasting life, eternal peace and love, you have everything you need already to begin the journey.

And here’s some of the things you don’t need;

• You don’t need to pay any individual, group or organization a single dollar.
A Truly enlightened teacher does not charge for their services.
• You don’t need a middleman between you and the truth. Truly enlightened teachers are rare, while blind teachers are plentiful. Distinguishing between the two is part of the journey. Learn from your own mistakes and successes, don’t be a slave to the beliefs of others.
• You don’t need to rely on anyone else’s interpretation/misinterpretation of spiritual or religious writings.
• You don’t need to learn any special postures or chants.
• You don’t need to believe in any dogma or superstition.
• You don’t need to take any secret oath’s or initiations.
• You don’t even need to acquire philosophical, spiritual or religious knowledge and/or concepts. The more you think you know - the further you appear to be from the truth of your being.

All that is required is a willingness to investigate for yourself what is directly in your field of awareness, and learning to distinguish between that which is temporary, and that which is eternal. In the beginning this is best done in a quiet space when you are alone at a set time each day for as long as you are comfortable.

Much of the material, and a number of relevant links are in my thread, you can always pm me if you have any queries you would like addressed privately,

With Love / In Lak'ech
tim

[johnf]

Tim,
It is interesting that I did not see you posting your reply to me above yesterday when i was diving into this thread.
The exchange between you and another member that I know impressed me. And as I often do, I got caught up in trying to pin down where you were coming from and read up to page 5 of this thread last night. Then I took a break, and talked on skype about more everyday stuff to friends.This helped a lot to ground me again.

What was occuring was trying to figure what to say, or ask without revealing what a mess I am in.
So this morning I am interested in starting with getting that fear out of the way.

I read your share on the state of enlightenment, and agree implicitly with everything you said there, that you for that it was like remembering several different experiences I have had, that put me in that state without a body, or personal history, or even memory of the concept of physical.
It was triggered by what must have been a fairly strong dose of LSD when I was 17.
I was freaked out, very self conscious, and just wanted my fear to go away, then I felt like some giant being was using a flashlight to find me, and the light went over me and into the back of my head as it zeroed in on me.
Then the light expanded and everything but It went away.
Everything I have now of this event is a memory, so I have trouble seeing what I may be reading into it, but it was basically as you describe in the OP, yet there seems to be little tiny waves of personalities, (I imagine this as multiple beings) showing up and before there is thought they fade back.
The whole thing came to a crashing halt as I thought this was God, and that thought led to a realization that I did have a body, and if this was God I was dying.
So through whatever means I put back the physical universe, my body, and the room, and was shaking my head.
Whenever I think about the going out and coming back parts of this, I am struck with the fact that I am either there, or here, no in between, and the universe and the self arise,or disappear as a pair all else is how you and many other put it SELF.
Years later this happened as a result of doing A Course In Miracles, and I went out and came back with only the help of a freind reading a section of that book to me, and in trying to grasp the message, I lost the universe completely for the second time.
There are other times when i experienced milder versions of this when I felt I was melting into someone else and becoming this giant being that included us both.
But I am in my human life a confused, at times violently emotional, and barely employed person . The lack of signs of enlightenment I would say.

As far as a search for enlightenment or spiritual growth goes I seem to be missing the middle between being a physical being, that can operate, and survive in a physical world, and this overwhelming desire to complete all that and get to the inevitable conclusion that you describe so well in the OP.

I agree implicitly with you that love happens to everyone, and the conclusion is the only choice.

Meditation as such in any form ,tai chi, sitting with eyes closed, wind up putting me in a very bad inchoherent state.
I do much better with just taking a walk. I do something that includes mudras to move energy as I walk, and keep my attention mostly on the horizon.

This helps a little to make me feel more present, and able to cope with my painful awareness of the crack between the worlds, and what seems to be a huge amount of anger and confusion over having to be here.

Ramana Marharishi, as far as his existence, and the idea that he is a human reference for the presence of silence in the midst of a human life, makes sense to.
I like the idea of self inquiry, Vichara, etc.
Maybe there are directions somewhere that can help me do this without stirring up the chaos that happens when I try to follow his suggestions in the one book of his I have.
So my Question is, what would you suggest to me as a way of healing this rift, I seem to be experiencing.

jf

[CdnSirian]

"Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply. "

This is how Anita Moorjani describes her NDE.

[greybeard]

If one is genuinely interested in spiritual Truth this thread is the place to be.
The content is second to N"ONE"
Chris

[Shadowman]

Tim,
It is interesting that I did not see you posting your reply to me above yesterday when i was diving into this thread.
The exchange between you and another member that I know impressed me. And as I often do, I got caught up in trying to pin down where you were coming from and read up to page 5 of this thread last night. Then I took a break, and talked on skype about more everyday stuff to friends.This helped a lot to ground me again.

What was occuring was trying to figure what to say, or ask without revealing what a mess I am in.
So this morning I am interested in starting with getting that fear out of the way.

I read your share on the state of enlightenment, and agree implicitly with everything you said there, that you for that it was like remembering several different experiences I have had, that put me in that state without a body, or personal history, or even memory of the concept of physical.
It was triggered by what must have been a fairly strong dose of LSD when I was 17.
I was freaked out, very self conscious, and just wanted my fear to go away, then I felt like some giant being was using a flashlight to find me, and the light went over me and into the back of my head as it zeroed in on me.
Then the light expanded and everything but It went away.
Everything I have now of this event is a memory, so I have trouble seeing what I may be reading into it, but it was basically as you describe in the OP, yet there seems to be little tiny waves of personalities, (I imagine this as multiple beings) showing up and before there is thought they fade back.
The whole thing came to a crashing halt as I thought this was God, and that thought led to a realization that I did have a body, and if this was God I was dying.
So through whatever means I put back the physical universe, my body, and the room, and was shaking my head.
Whenever I think about the going out and coming back parts of this, I am struck with the fact that I am either there, or here, no in between, and the universe and the self arise,or disappear as a pair all else is how you and many other put it SELF.
Years later this happened as a result of doing A Course In Miracles, and I went out and came back with only the help of a freind reading a section of that book to me, and in trying to grasp the message, I lost the universe completely for the second time.
There are other times when i experienced milder versions of this when I felt I was melting into someone else and becoming this giant being that included us both.
But I am in my human life a confused, at times violently emotional, and barely employed person . The lack of signs of enlightenment I would say.

As far as a search for enlightenment or spiritual growth goes I seem to be missing the middle between being a physical being, that can operate, and survive in a physical world, and this overwhelming desire to complete all that and get to the inevitable conclusion that you describe so well in the OP.

I agree implicitly with you that love happens to everyone, and the conclusion is the only choice.

Meditation as such in any form ,tai chi, sitting with eyes closed, wind up putting me in a very bad inchoherent state.
I do much better with just taking a walk. I do something that includes mudras to move energy as I walk, and keep my attention mostly on the horizon.

This helps a little to make me feel more present, and able to cope with my painful awareness of the crack between the worlds, and what seems to be a huge amount of anger and confusion over having to be here.

Ramana Marharishi, as far as his existence, and the idea that he is a human reference for the presence of silence in the midst of a human life, makes sense to.
I like the idea of self inquiry, Vichara, etc.
Maybe there are directions somewhere that can help me do this without stirring up the chaos that happens when I try to follow his suggestions in the one book of his I have.
So my Question is, what would you suggest to me as a way of healing this rift, I seem to be experiencing.

jf

Hi John,

The mind can be a useful servant, but can also be a terrible master.

As you practice any spiritual technique, and just going for a walk while keeping your attention on the horizon is perfectly OK, you gain an increasing sense of detachment and perspective on it’s generally insane and ever changing nature.

Whenever you focus attention on anything, be it on a mantra, a mudra, your breath, the horizon, or even a concept such as compassion, you are actually learning to both focus the power of the mind in one direction, and as a side effect, to calm it.

The negative aspects of the mind such as anger and confusion require reasons for perpetuation, and as the mind repeats such patterns of thinking the resonant power is increased. If the mind is focused on say, the horizon, this pattern is interrupted and the cognitive behaviour supporting the anger is lessened...

From here http://www.angelfire.com/ca/SHALOM/dhammapada.html

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.

"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."

Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.


It is said that spiritual practice is good in the beginning, good in the middle and good in the end.

In the beginning, a greater detachment developed from focusing and silently watching the mind, leads to a deeper understanding of those patterns which are unhelpful and which lead to suffering. When this understanding becomes deep enough, the old patterns simply drop of themselves. If you have to force it, (ie the forced Brahmacharya of the Catholic priests) then it simply has not been fully realized as unhelpful behaviour, and instead becomes repression, often leading to deviant behaviour.

In the middle, the continuing and deeper understanding that all patterns of thinking, including the I thought, are based on identification with forms, ie body/beliefs/emotions/possessions/etc lead to a clearer separation between awareness and mind based consciousness. This also leads to an increasing sense of security, for while your body can be harmed and your possessions stolen, nothing can threaten your “inner sky”.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=479710&viewfull=1#post479710

“Don’t you know I can take out my sword and chop off your head without so much as blinking an eye?” said Genghis Khan.

“And don’t you know that I can sit here while you take out your sword and chop off my head without so much as bliking an eye!” said the Monk


The rift that you speak of has it’s basis in mind based consciousness, not in awareness. As your identity shifts further towards awareness the consequences are twofold. You will experience a greater degree of peace and joy, for no apparent reason, and your body/mind will operate with an increased sense of harmony. The mind then is focused more in the here and now, which is it’s proper function, as opposed to dreaming up fear based scenarios or reasons to become angry/confused/sad/bored/etc .

In the end, the shift from the unreal and temporal/corporeal based identification with mind/body based consciousness to the real and eternal awareness that is your Self occurs, whereupon it is realized that actually you never were “here” in the relative sense.

When Ramana was dying and his devotees were asking him to use his divine power to stay his response was “Where could I go?”

The best advice John is to proceed at your own pace. Practice your focused attention as much as you can. And remember, try not to judge any thoughts that arise during your practice. An easy to remember protocol is 1. Relax, 2. Watch, 3. Don’t judge.

In the beginning this can be difficult as whatever has been repressed is going to come up, this is the chaos you refer to. Just watch it all come and go as Siddhartha did under the Bodhi tree, and don’t act on it. The sense of dying you refer to is the ego dying, sometimes called the dark night of the soul, hence the metaphorical significance of the crucifixion prior to total surrender - “Thy will be done”.

Once you have “trained the dragon” to focus on one thing at a time (ie Dhyana) you can then turn it inwards and focus on it’s Source. This is Zazen or Vichara.

Your life circumstances and past actions are irrelevant to your worthiness for enlightenment. It was only as an unemployed single parent for many years that I was afforded the time to practice the techniques which suited my temperament. Be kind to yourself and others, self judgement rarely leads to genuine transformation. Know this John, you are deeply loved, just as you are, live in love and the confusion and anger will flee from you my friend,

http://www.salizah.com/laotzuandonebigtree.html

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/2167493.Gautama_Buddha

Namaste / With Love
tim

PS pm me if you would like any of Ramana's books in pdf, I have lots ;)

[johnf]

Tim,
It is interesting that I did not see you posting your reply to me above yesterday when i was diving into this thread.
The exchange between you and another member that I know impressed me. And as I often do, I got caught up in trying to pin down where you were coming from and read up to page 5 of this thread last night. Then I took a break, and talked on skype about more everyday stuff to friends.This helped a lot to ground me again.

What was occuring was trying to figure what to say, or ask without revealing what a mess I am in.
So this morning I am interested in starting with getting that fear out of the way.

I read your share on the state of enlightenment, and agree implicitly with everything you said there, that you for that it was like remembering several different experiences I have had, that put me in that state without a body, or personal history, or even memory of the concept of physical.
It was triggered by what must have been a fairly strong dose of LSD when I was 17.
I was freaked out, very self conscious, and just wanted my fear to go away, then I felt like some giant being was using a flashlight to find me, and the light went over me and into the back of my head as it zeroed in on me.
Then the light expanded and everything but It went away.
Everything I have now of this event is a memory, so I have trouble seeing what I may be reading into it, but it was basically as you describe in the OP, yet there seems to be little tiny waves of personalities, (I imagine this as multiple beings) showing up and before there is thought they fade back.
The whole thing came to a crashing halt as I thought this was God, and that thought led to a realization that I did have a body, and if this was God I was dying.
So through whatever means I put back the physical universe, my body, and the room, and was shaking my head.
Whenever I think about the going out and coming back parts of this, I am struck with the fact that I am either there, or here, no in between, and the universe and the self arise,or disappear as a pair all else is how you and many other put it SELF.
Years later this happened as a result of doing A Course In Miracles, and I went out and came back with only the help of a freind reading a section of that book to me, and in trying to grasp the message, I lost the universe completely for the second time.
There are other times when i experienced milder versions of this when I felt I was melting into someone else and becoming this giant being that included us both.
But I am in my human life a confused, at times violently emotional, and barely employed person . The lack of signs of enlightenment I would say.

As far as a search for enlightenment or spiritual growth goes I seem to be missing the middle between being a physical being, that can operate, and survive in a physical world, and this overwhelming desire to complete all that and get to the inevitable conclusion that you describe so well in the OP.

I agree implicitly with you that love happens to everyone, and the conclusion is the only choice.

Meditation as such in any form ,tai chi, sitting with eyes closed, wind up putting me in a very bad inchoherent state.
I do much better with just taking a walk. I do something that includes mudras to move energy as I walk, and keep my attention mostly on the horizon.

This helps a little to make me feel more present, and able to cope with my painful awareness of the crack between the worlds, and what seems to be a huge amount of anger and confusion over having to be here.

Ramana Marharishi, as far as his existence, and the idea that he is a human reference for the presence of silence in the midst of a human life, makes sense to.
I like the idea of self inquiry, Vichara, etc.
Maybe there are directions somewhere that can help me do this without stirring up the chaos that happens when I try to follow his suggestions in the one book of his I have.
So my Question is, what would you suggest to me as a way of healing this rift, I seem to be experiencing.

jf

Hi John,

The mind can be a useful servant, but can also be a terrible master.

As you practice any spiritual technique, and just going for a walk while keeping your attention on the horizon is perfectly OK, you gain an increasing sense of detachment and perspective on it’s generally insane and ever changing nature.

Whenever you focus attention on anything, be it on a mantra, a mudra, your breath, the horizon, or even a concept such as compassion, you are actually learning to both focus the power of the mind in one direction, and as a side effect, to calm it.

The negative aspects of the mind such as anger and confusion require reasons for perpetuation, and as the mind repeats such patterns of thinking the resonant power is increased. If the mind is focused on say, the horizon, this pattern is interrupted and the cognitive behaviour supporting the anger is lessened...

From here http://www.angelfire.com/ca/SHALOM/dhammapada.html

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.

"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."

Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.


It is said that spiritual practice is good in the beginning, good in the middle and good in the end.

In the beginning, a greater detachment developed from focusing and silently watching the mind, leads to a deeper understanding of those patterns which are unhelpful and which lead to suffering. When this understanding becomes deep enough, the old patterns simply drop of themselves. If you have to force it, (ie the forced Brahmacharya of the Catholic priests) then it simply has not been fully realized as unhelpful behaviour, and instead becomes repression, often leading to deviant behaviour.

In the middle, the continuing and deeper understanding that all patterns of thinking, including the I thought, are based on identification with forms, ie body/beliefs/emotions/possessions/etc lead to a clearer separation between awareness and mind based consciousness. This also leads to an increasing sense of security, for while your body can be harmed and your possessions stolen, nothing can threaten your “inner sky”.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=479710&viewfull=1#post479710

The rift that you speak of has it’s basis in mind based consciousness, not in awareness. As your identity shifts further towards awareness the consequences are twofold. You will experience a greater degree of peace and joy, for no apparent reason, and your body/mind will operate with an increased sense of harmony. The mind then is focused more in the here and now, which is it’s proper function, as opposed to dreaming up fear based scenarios or reasons to become angry/confused/sad/bored/etc .

In the end, the shift from the unreal and temporal/corporeal based identification with mind/body based consciousness to the real and eternal awareness that is your Self occurs, whereupon it is realized that actually you never were “here” in the relative sense.

“Don’t you know I can take out my sword and chop off your head without so much as blinking an eye?” said Genghis Khan.

“And don’t you know that I can sit here while you take out your sword and chop off my head without so much as bliking an eye!” said the Monk

When Ramana was dying and his devotees were asking him to use his divine power to stay his response was “Where could I go?”

The best advice John is to proceed at your own pace. Practice your focused attention as much as you can. And remember, try not to judge any thoughts that arise during your practice. An easy to remember protocol is 1. Relax, 2. Watch, 3. Don’t judge.

In the beginning this can be difficult as whatever has been repressed is going to come up, this is the chaos you refer to. Just watch it all come and go as Siddhartha did under the Bodhi tree, and don’t act on it. The sense of dying you refer to is the ego dying, sometimes called the dark night of the soul, hence the metaphorical significance of the crucifixion prior to total surrender - “Thy will be done”.

Once you have “trained the dragon” to focus on one thing at a time you can then turn it inwards and focus on it’s Source. This is Dhyana, or Zazen or Vichara.

Your life circumstances and past actions are irrelevant to your worthiness for enlightenment. It was only as an unemployed single parent for many years that I was afforded the time to practice the techniques which suited my temperament. Be kind to yourself and others, self judgement rarely leads to genuine transformation. Know this John, you are deeply loved, just as you are, live in love and the confusion and anger will flee from you my friend,

http://www.salizah.com/laotzuandonebigtree.html

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/2167493.Gautama_Buddha

Namaste / With Love
tim

PS pm me if you would like any of Ramana's books in pdf, I have lots ;)

Thank you Tim, Several antidotes for my unwanted thoughts about myself there.
and there are reasons to value what I have, in there, and trust it will take me somewhere
I need to go.
I will keep your offer of the pdf's In mind.
I share in the other thread how the example of Ramna has repeatedly shown up in mmy life, and the message was he preferred to teach in silence.
In my younger days I liked the Casteneda books, especially the power of silence, and your avatar is apparently from a modern cover of that book?

In Gratitude,

jf

[Eram]

...]

But I am in my human life a confused, at times violently emotional, and barely employed person . The lack of signs of enlightenment I would say.

As far as a search for enlightenment or spiritual growth goes I seem to be missing the middle between being a physical being, that can operate, and survive in a physical world, and this overwhelming desire to complete all that and get to the inevitable conclusion that you describe so well in the OP.

I agree implicitly with you that love happens to everyone, and the conclusion is the only choice.

[...]

what would you suggest to me as a way of healing this rift, I seem to be experiencing.



Hi John,

I hope that it is OK that I jump in with my take on what's hindering you to " get there"

First of all, I am too a seeker for truth/enlightenment and in my observation, I suffer somewhat the same rift that you are referring to, namely: confusion and violently emotional outbursts combined with episodes of experiencing the divine.
I am self employed, but I'm quite sure that I wouldn't be able to hold a paid job for long :).

Recently, after writing about a lucid dream in the OBE thread from TraineeHuman, he suggested to me that I am afraid of my dark side.
I investigated this idea for some time and had to fully admit it, further more, it gave me some new insights about the whole idea of the dark side/shadow side in relation to finding enlightenment.

In my understanding, the dark side is everything that we have suppressed in ourself and therefore lives in the unconscious part of our minds.
Basically, we are being taught to be "good" and not "bad", which creates the dualistic thinking program in our mind.
It creates the dark/suppressed side in our consciousness.

In my observations, a large part of the people that seek enlightenment (and I was one of them), step in the trap of making the undertaking to get to that stage an exercise in reaching for it in a direct way ie meditating, self inquiry (too little of that often) and turning the understandings of enlightenment into a program to live by (which doesn't get you anywhere, because it creates an image of the enlightened state and only adds to the ego).

After reading Katie Byron's book (http://www.amazon.com/Byron-Katie/e/B001H6S8B4) "Loving What Is: Four Questions That Can Change Your Life" and working with it a bit, I am now coming to the insight that this is the element that so many people seem to miss when the head out for finding enlightenment.
We have to clean up the dirt in our dark side.
I wrote about it here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=687770&viewfull=1#post687770) (do read it)

Basically, finding enlightenment has two requirements:
Getting the mind into a neutral/unbiased state and become detached from identifications. (correct me if I'm wrong here Tim or anyone else)

If we don't clean up the dark side ie releasing the emotional attachments and dualistic thinking, we continue to drag this behind us as anchors that keep us in the low vibrations.

When I read your post, it made me think of my situation and especially the violently emotional outbursts made me think of a suppressed dark side.
When we suppress our dark side and at the same time reach for enlightenment... we will experience what you describe so clearly.


There are many ways in my opinion to release the emotional attachments/thought forms, but the work from Katie Byron strikes me as the most direct and effective way that I ever came across.
It gives real releasing of old attachments/emotions and makes me extremely aware of the judgemental thoughts that my minds cling to.

I'm not sure, but as far as I can see it, this is turning out to be the big step forward that I failed to make in the past year and I also think that many many other seekers are in the same pitfall that I was in.

Sorry that my post is so long and not as coherent as I wanted it to be.

Most important thing I wanted to say is:
violently emotional combined with experiences of the divine, shouts "repressed dark side" to me.
If this is true, then you might want to read some about it and find a way to resolve it.

[markpierre]

Thank you Tim, Several antidotes for my unwanted thoughts about myself there.



Sorry, I don't know if this is too far out of context or not, but I got hung up there. Why do unwanted thoughts need an antidote?
I have them all the time. I love um. They're no less unreal than the thoughts I approve of.
All you discover in the darkness is that it was a big deal about nothing.
I wouldn't try to rebury it before you find that out for yourself.

[chocolate]

johnf,
If I may add my thought on the subject directly related to your post:

From my own experience I can say that true balance comes with peace...of mind. I would suggest to anyone who is still trying- to stop. Stop searching, stop trying. It is inside of you, but your ultimate effort suppresses it to come to life.

Enlightenment is just a word. In this process you are the teacher and the student, and whatever you achieve is simply given to you, but you need to allow it to come to you without the expectation of this having some defined name, face, guru, teaching, etc.

Realizing the existence of a higher "thing"-self, power, intervention, etc, and believing in its power to guide you is the simplest way of achieving true realization.

We tend to accumulate a lot of expectation that the truth has the face of that person, or the other religion; or that happiness comes ONLY if I get to be with "put the name of your ultimate loved one here", and so on.

Buddhist say practice detachment for a reason.

[johnf]

Thank you Tim, Several antidotes for my unwanted thoughts about myself there.



Sorry, I don't know if this is too far out of context or not, but I got hung up there. Why do unwanted thoughts need an antidote?
I have them all the time. I love um. They're no less unreal than the thoughts I approve of.
All you discover in the darkness is that it was a big deal about nothing.
I wouldn't try to rebury it before you find that out for yourself.

Well I couldn't come up with words that really got to what I was trying to say. I don't want to remove this stuff, so much as seeing through it. As you put it discovering in the darkness. that it is a big deal about nothing is the sort of thing I am seeking more of.
Eram, Thank you for your clear addressing of the shadow work thing, I have had a hard time getting into Byron Katies work, without hearing judge your thoughts and suppress them.
I would like to explore it in a way that shows me how it actually works, but haven't been able to follow it at all.
I found Scott Kiloby's methods extremely effective, but I balk at the expensiveness of the process.
It is about seeing both the shadow, and the positives as illusions, looking directly at things shows they are something completely different.
I would love to hear what Tim thought of your post.

Chocolate, you seem to think I believe a lot of things I don't. My main thrust in my post was to be honest about what seems to be in my way.
Basically I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I am "seeking" for the seeker to fall away, if you follow me,lol.

jf

[chocolate]

I follow you :), and speak as a seeker myself.

[Shadowman]

Thank you Tim, Several antidotes for my unwanted thoughts about myself there.



Sorry, I don't know if this is too far out of context or not, but I got hung up there. Why do unwanted thoughts need an antidote?
I have them all the time. I love um. They're no less unreal than the thoughts I approve of.
All you discover in the darkness is that it was a big deal about nothing.
I wouldn't try to rebury it before you find that out for yourself.

Well I couldn't come up with words that really got to what I was trying to say. I don't want to remove this stuff, so much as seeing through it. As you put it discovering in the darkness. that it is a big deal about nothing is the sort of thing I am seeking more of.
Eram, Thank you for your clear addressing of the shadow work thing, I have had a hard time getting into Byron Katies work, without hearing judge your thoughts and suppress them.
I would like to explore it in a way that shows me how it actually works, but haven't been able to follow it at all.
I found Scott Kiloby's methods extremely effective, but I balk at the expensiveness of the process.
It is about seeing both the shadow, and the positives as illusions, looking directly at things shows they are something completely different.
I would love to hear what Tim thought of your post.

jf

[/I]

Markpierre can be a bit cryptic (and cheeky ;)) at times, which lends itself to wide interpretation.

Feel free to correct me if you like Markpierre, but what he seems to be getting at is as follows;

There are thoughts, there is the the thinker of the thoughts and then there is the awareness in which both the thoughts and thinker appear. It is the thinker (which is the ego) which judges some thoughts as harmful and seeks to be rid of them. The ego desires the positive aspects of duality and fears the negative aspects of duality, this includes thoughts as well as physical and emotional phenomena. It is in judging, clinging and rejecting that the ego perpetuates itself. And it's identity can be that of a saint (identifying with and acting upon only good thoughts), or that of a sinner (identifying with and acting upon bad thoughts), or anything in between. Both iron and gold chains can bind one to duality.

However, to awareness, which Markpierre symbolizes as the darkness (ie absence of all relative phenomena), all thoughts are equally unreal and equally powerless over your true Self, hence require no antidote. It is like running from a monster in a nightmare, the moment you realize you are just dreaming you can turn and face the monster, which was just a projection of your own mind. In just facing them, in just allowing all thoughts to come and go in your practice, without judgement, you shift from the thinker which is vulnerable and therefore fearful, to the awareness which is eternal love.

“Out beyond ideas of right doing and wrong doing there is a field. I'll meet you there.” - Rumi

In daily life when negative thoughts arise, and we act on them, we can end up causing suffering for ourselves and others. In our sadhana (or practice), we create a safe space to allow all thoughts to arise, free of repression. We also learn and observe the connection between thoughts and emotions, as well as other states of mind, which often occur too quickly in life to see the connections. But most of all, in just silently watching them, we learn that we are not our thoughts; and in doing so, we find that we are not a slave to them, nor are we threatened by them...

Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists, right John?

In Lak'ech / With Love
tim

[markpierre]

I've been beheaded, drawn and quartered, hung upside down and sawn down the middle, impaled, and had
the Twinkies withheld from my lunchbox for being too direct. Pardon me if I play with words a little.
But cryptic? You overestimate my intelligence.
Maybe each interpretation needs to be a little different.

I wake up with that monster every morning. It's me.

[Hazel]

Maybe this will be perceived to be too simplistic, but learning to be free of concepts of good and evil is fundamental to my understanding/experience of enlightenment/freedom.

Self-soveriegnty in unbridled choice making.. particularly when outcomes have been derived from action on principles that are core to what is most meaningful inwardly and not externally.

If I'm divergent here from something more esoteric
forgive me

[markpierre]

Maybe this will be perceived to be too simplistic, but learning to be free of concepts of good and evil is my understanding/experience of enlightenment/freedom

Simplistic is a relief. :)

[Shadowman]

I've been beheaded, drawn and quartered, hung upside down and sawn down the middle, impaled, and had
the Twinkies withheld from my lunchbox for being too direct. Pardon me if I play with words a little.
But cryptic? You overestimate my intelligence.
Maybe each interpretation needs to be a little different.

I wake up with that monster every morning. It's me.


No pardon necessary. Your input, wordplay and interpretation are welcome and appreciated,

Namaste / With Respect
tim

[johnf]

After a couple of days doing my practice with increased interest, i feel a little more focus, body more relaxed.
I am experiencing some sort of energy coming up that is very familiar to me.
Sometimes it appears as a man, sometimes as a big dark blue sphere.
And there is a certain compulsion to try to figure it out, identify it.
So I am doing my best to just continue as I am and let it do what it may, is there anything else you might suggest Tim.

jf

[johnf]

What I describe in my last post is not happening today.
However I am struggling a bit again with my tendency to dwell on old upsets.
Possible correlation there.

jf

[Shadowman]

After a couple of days doing my practice with increased interest, i feel a little more focus, body more relaxed.
I am experiencing some sort of energy coming up that is very familiar to me.
Sometimes it appears as a man, sometimes as a big dark blue sphere.
And there is a certain compulsion to try to figure it out, identify it.
So I am doing my best to just continue as I am and let it do what it may, is there anything else you might suggest Tim.

jf


What I describe in my last post is not happening today.
However I am struggling a bit again with my tendency to dwell on old upsets.
Possible correlation there.

jf

Hi John,

Just to clarify, does your practice still entail walking while focusing on the horizon?

As mentioned above, generally the idea initially is just to focus the mind on one thing. Whenever phenomena arise, either externally or internally, just gently bring the mind back to your chosen object. You may find it less distracting to do your practice in a seated position in your room. Just sit in a comfortable position with your back straight if possible. A relatively simple focus point is the air entering and leaving your nostrils.

By all means continue walking if you prefer. Whichever, just notice when you have become distracted (usually by identifying with thoughts, or as you put it, dwelling on old upsets) and return your attention to your focus. The calming effect that arises with such practice will eventually carry forward into the rest of your day. If you do it at the same time each day, you also may notice the energy coming on at practice time.

Should you start to experience unusual or heightened states of energy/awareness, it may be helpful to have a read of the following, so you can keep things in perspective and maintain a balance ie in sleeping, eating and exercise patterns. There is still little understanding in the West amongst the medical and psychological professions of mystical states, which can be mis-diagnosed. You can always pm me if you run into any problems that you would prefer to address privately;

http://www.kundaliniawakeningsystems1.com/downloads/kundalini-psychosis-or-transcendence.pdf

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=0tiKX3_rRSwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=farther+shores&hl=en&sa=X&ei=65fKUb2jAo7NkQWM54HQBg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=farther%20shores&f=false

http://www.amazon.com/Farther-Shores-Exploring-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0595533965

Namaste
tim

[johnf]

After a couple of days doing my practice with increased interest, i feel a little more focus, body more relaxed.
I am experiencing some sort of energy coming up that is very familiar to me.
Sometimes it appears as a man, sometimes as a big dark blue sphere.
And there is a certain compulsion to try to figure it out, identify it.
So I am doing my best to just continue as I am and let it do what it may, is there anything else you might suggest Tim.

jf


What I describe in my last post is not happening today.
However I am struggling a bit again with my tendency to dwell on old upsets.
Possible correlation there.

jf

Hi John,

Just to clarify, does your practice still entail walking while focusing on the horizon?

As mentioned above, generally the idea initially is just to focus the mind on one thing. Whenever phenomena arise, either externally or internally, just gently bring the mind back to your chosen object. You may find it less distracting to do your practice in a seated position in your room. Just sit in a comfortable position with your back straight if possible. A relatively simple focus point is the air entering and leaving your nostrils.

By all means continue walking if you prefer. Whichever, just notice when you have become distracted (usually by identifying with thoughts, or as you put it, dwelling on old upsets) and return your attention to your focus. The calming effect that arises with such practice will eventually carry forward into the rest of your day. If you do it at the same time each day, you also may notice the energy coming on at practice time.

Should you start to experience unusual or heightened states of energy/awareness, it may be helpful to have a read of the following, so you can keep things in perspective and maintain a balance ie in sleeping, eating and exercise patterns. There is still little understanding in the West amongst the medical and psychological professions of mystical states, which can be mis-diagnosed. You can always pm me if you run into any problems that you would prefer to address privately;

http://www.kundaliniawakeningsystems1.com/downloads/kundalini-psychosis-or-transcendence.pdf

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=0tiKX3_rRSwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=farther+shores&hl=en&sa=X&ei=65fKUb2jAo7NkQWM54HQBg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=farther%20shores&f=false

http://www.amazon.com/Farther-Shores-Exploring-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0595533965

Namaste
tim

Thanks Tim,
On the sitting practice are there any directions for what to do with my eyes?
I actually don't feel safe doing such a quiet practice yet.
I do have powerful distractions come up, and they seem to be milder with a more physical practice.
Definitely works better the more I focus on the horizon.
I have looked at the kundalini phenomenon from time to time, and not sure if my stuff qualifies, I will check those links out though

jf

[Shadowman]

Thanks Tim,
On the sitting practice are there any directions for what to do with my eyes?
I actually don't feel safe doing such a quiet practice yet.
I do have powerful distractions come up, and they seem to be milder with a more physical practice.
Definitely works better the more I focus on the horizon.
I have looked at the kundalini phenomenon from time to time, and not sure if my stuff qualifies, I will check those links out though

jf

No specific instructions for the eyes, whatever you're comfortable with. If open eyed just face a wall so there are no distractions.

It's good to see you following your own intuition and doing what feels best for you. Stay with the physical practice until you develop greater detachment from the powerful distractions. It may be helpful to see if there are any meditation groups or teachers locally, just so you have like minded people to bounce ideas off if the need arises. Depending on your temperament some find it easier to practice in groups while others prefer solitude.

Chris (Greybeard) has a lot of experience with Kundalini, you could pm him or post in his main thread if you have any specific questions. Check the links and see what you think. The Farther Shores book is very good if you enjoyed the preview. The difficulty is not so much the energetic experiences, but the mind's reaction to them, especially if one doesn't understand what may be happening. Many do not have them at all, but it is helpful to have some background beforehand,

Namaste
tim

[Eram]

Hi Tim,

For the last month or so (maybe a little longer), I started to do "the work" that Katie Byron came up with.
4 questions that one can use to explore and dissolve every resistance that we have toward reality (that what happens).
I have noticed that the more I do it, the easier it becomes (of course :)) and where I first had to sit down and really write it all down, first the resistance toward reality, then applying the four questions.... now, I can do it while doing the dishes or whatever that doesn't require all too much of me.
I also noticed that in effect it is a sort of tool to surrender ones self to reality.
It is like the "four stages of grief":

Denial
Anger
Depression/Grief
Acceptance

If I seek out a section of resistance in me (not agreeing with the clothes my neighbor is waring to name a silly resistance as an example) and I apply the work real quick, this (the 5 stages) is what I experience.

So, this is what I do most of the time, together with self inquiry.

The thing is.... I am beginning to suspect that this actually can lead to somewhere.

Could this be true?

Could it be that all it requires is 2 simple techniques like these?

I am asking this also because I saw a youtube the other day where Adyashanti was telling about that most paths that people try to reach enlightenment actually lead away from it.

[Shadowman]

Hello Eram,

Thankyou for your pragmatic observations. It is simple, theoretically. It is the mind/thoughts/ego which tries to complicate things. So in challenging the absolute reality of thoughts/beliefs we are in effect challenging the existence/reality of the ego. Those thoughts previously taken as "facts", which may result in suffering, are upon close examination found to be just thoughts, which need not be identified with (including the "I am the body" thought)

Katie's Work shares similarities with Buddha's four noble truths and Ramana's Self enquiry. Adyashanti was possibly referring to the increasingly complex systems of philosophy and religion which lead one further into the machinations of the mind, rather than the attainment of evanescence...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evanescence?s=t

"Later Sri Bhagavan continued: The intricate maze of philosophy of different schools is said to clarify matters and reveal the Truth. But in fact they create confusion where no confusion need exist. To understand anything there must be the Self. The Self is obvious. Why not remain as the Self? What need to explain the non-self?" - Ramana Maharshi

Mr. W. J.: When we read about it we read it intellectually. But it is all too remote. When we see you in body we are brought nearer to Reality and it gives us courage to bring our knowledge into our everyday life. If one realised the Self and acted up to it in the West, one would be locked up in a lunatic asylum. (Laughter.)

M.: You will be locking yourself in. Because the world is mad, considers you mad. Where is the lunatic asylum if it is not within. You will not be in it, but it will be in you. (Laughter). Uncertainties, doubts and fears are natural to everyone until the Self is realised. They are inseparable from the ego, rather they are the ego.

D.: How are they to disappear?

M.: They are the ego. If the ego goes they go with it. The ego is itself unreal. What is the ego? Enquire. The body is insentient and cannot say ‘I’ . The Self is pure consciousness and non-dual. It cannot say ‘I’ . No one says, ‘I’ in sleep. What is the ego then? It is something intermediate between the inert body and the Self. It has no locus standi. If sought for it vanishes like a ghost. You see, a man imagines that there is something by his side in darkness; it may be some dark object. If he looks closely the ghost is not to be seen, but some dark object which he could identify as a tree or a post, etc. If he does not look closely the ghost strikes terror in the person. All that is required is only to look closely and the ghost vanishes. The ghost was never there. So also with the ego. It is an intangible link between the body and Pure Consciousness. It is not real. So long as one does not look closely it continues to give trouble. But when one looks for it, it is found not to exist. - Ramana Maharshi

You are making excellent progress Eram, and yes, lol, it does lead "somewhere"... beautiful beyond description;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTDZ237K3nA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSFLZ-MzIhM

With Love
tim

[Shadowman]

Hello Tim

Gotta ask...so can you walk through walls, know the mind of every sentient being, manipulate matter, produce emanations etc? I have heard that enlightened beings are able to do such things. That would be really nifty!! :cool:

Hello again Kathie,

Here is another very worthwhile perspective on the attainment of supernatural powers or Siddhi's;

There is a legend that a group of rishis once lived in the Daruka forest together, practising rites by which they acquired supernatural powers. By the same means they hoped to attain final liberation. In this, however, they were mistaken, for action can only result in action, not in the cessation of action; rites can produce powers but not the peace of liberation which is beyond rites and powers and all forms of action. Siva determined to convince them of their error and therefore appeared before them as a wandering sadhu. Together with him came Vishnu in the form of a beautiful lady. All the rishis were smitten with love for this lady and thereby their equilibrium was disturbed and their rites and powers were adversely affected. Moreover their wives, who were also living with them in the forest, all fell in love with the strange sadhu. Incensed at this, they conjured up an elephant and a tiger by magic rites and sent them against him. Siva, however, slew them easily and took the elephant's skin for a robe and the tiger's for a wrap. The rishis then realized that they were up against one more powerful than themselves and they bowed down to him and asked him for instruction. He then explained to them that it is not by action but by renunciation of action that one attains liberation.

it continues for those interested here;

http://bhagavan-ramana.org/upadesasaram.html

With Love
tim

[greybeard]

God is Love without attributes.
Love is like gravity very powerful, we are all affected by iy yet it does not do anything.
It attracts,
Obviously that's metaphor.
The enlightened seem to have have persona’s and preferences but formless they are all the same ONE.
Our persona's etc are gifts which is given back on leaving the mortal coil.
When you can walk on water take the boat.
Powers are a distraction that the ego loves.
Chris

[Shadowman]

Maybe this will be perceived to be too simplistic, but learning to be free of concepts of good and evil is fundamental to my understanding/experience of enlightenment/freedom.

Self-soveriegnty in unbridled choice making.. particularly when outcomes have been derived from action on principles that are core to what is most meaningful inwardly and not externally.

If I'm divergent here from something more esoteric
forgive me

Hi recap,

Thankyou for your excellent comments and welcome to the thread. To be free of concepts is to be free of (identification with) thoughts. Your fundamental understanding of enlightenment is perfectly congruent with the techniques and masters quoted in this thread, as well as the direct "experience" outlined in the OP.

Sosan begins the Hsin Hsin Ming with the following;

The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences.

This is the equanimity or middle path prescribed by the Buddha. Preferences are a function of thinking/duality, not of pure awareness. The Way and the Goal are One. Contrast Sosan's statement with the following from Ramana Maharshi;

The degree of the absence of thoughts is the measure of your progress towards Self-Realisation. But Self-Realisation itself does not admit of progress; it is ever the same. The Self remains always in realisation.

The obstacles are thoughts. Progress is measured by the degree of removal of the obstacles to understanding that the Self is always realised. So thoughts must be checked by seeking to whom they arise. So you go to their Source, where they do not arise.

D.: Doubts are always arising. Hence my question.

M.: A doubt arises and is cleared; another arises and that is cleared, making way for another, and so it goes on. So there is no possibility of clearing away all doubts. See to whom the doubts arise. Go to their source and abide in it. Then they cease to arise. That is how doubts are to be cleared.


The great mistake many make in seeking to know/Gno Jesus or Buddha or any awakened one, is to do so with the intellect. The Kingdom of Heaven / Nirvana is not to be found in books/video's/etc. which at most should be an adjunct or inspiration to one's actual spiritual practice or sadhana...

M.: Intellect is only an instrument of the Self. It cannot help you to know what is beyond itself.

D.: I understand it. But there is no happiness beyond it.

M.: The intellect is the instrument wherewith to know unknown things. But you are already known, being the Self which is itself knowledge; so you do not become the object of knowledge. The intellect makes you see things outside, and not that which is its own source.

D.: The question is repeated.

M.: The intellect is useful thus far, it helps you to analyse yourself, and no further. It must then be merged into the ego, and the source of the ego must be sought. If that be done the ego disappears. Remain as that source and then the ego does not arise.

D.: There is no happiness in that state.

M.: ‘There is no happiness’ is only a thought. The Self is bliss, pure and simple. You are the Self. So you cannot but be bliss; being so, you cannot say here is no happiness. That which says so cannot be the Self; it is the non-Self and must be got rid of in order to realise the bliss of the Self.

It is only in abiding in the Source from which all thoughts arise, as opposed to identifying with thoughts, that we realise we are the eternal pure Being. To abide as the Source is to worship in Spirit, this is the inner meaning of loving God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul...

All things are like bubbles on water. You are the water and the objects are the bubbles. They cannot exist apart from the water, but they are not quite the same as the water.

D.: I feel I am like froth.

M.: Cease that identification with the unreal and know your real identity. Then you will be firm and no doubts can arise.

D.: But I am the froth.

M.: Because you think that way there is worry. It is a wrong imagination. Accept your true identity with the Real. Be the water and not the froth. That is done by diving in.

D.: If I dive in, I shall find........

M.: But even without diving in, you are That. The ideas of exterior and interior exist only so long as you do not accept your real identity.

D.: But I took the idea from you that you want me to dive in.

M.: Yes, quite right. It was said because you are identifying yourself with the froth and not the water. Because of this confusion the answer was meant to draw your attention to this confusion and bring it home to you. All that is meant is that the Self is infinite inclusive of all that you see. There is nothing beyond It nor apart from It.


Namaste / In Lak'ech
tim

[greybeard]

Thanks Tim I enjoy your posts immensely.
They are an accurate reflection of Truth.
Long may the finger point.

Chris

[Shadowman]

Thanks Tim I enjoy your posts immensely.
They are an accurate reflection of Truth.
Long may the finger point.

Chris

Thankyou Chris,

"A light that shines but does not warm is not a true light", is a quote from Thom Hartmann's book; The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight.

Your's is a truly warming light Chris. Your impeccable wisdom, humour, kindness and gentle good nature are an immeasurable ongoing gift to Avalon seekers of all persuasions. Rock on, oh wonderful friend,

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/148/8/b/the_last_hour_of_ancient_sunlight_by_doomed_forever-d51306m.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Hours-Ancient-Sunlight/dp/1400051576

Namaste / With Love
tim

[greybeard]

This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is.

Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply.

Now, what is missing from the above description of the direct experience of enlightenment?

It is the pronoun, I, for in truth there is no I, either relatively or absolutely. I implies a separation from totality, as the first person singular. Whereas the adjective Self, implies being the same throughout, as the self evident united reality/totality/all that is, and is more appropriate at hinting towards the truth.

You are in reality this Self, all else is illusion.
Relatively, this is the end of suffering. This is the beginning of endless bliss.
Absolutely, all suffering is unreal. Only the blissful Self is real.
This is the eternal Truth.


Edit to add on 2/5/12

Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response, preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

With Love/Namaste
tim

PS To clarify the definition of enlightenment, in the context that the term is applied in the title of this thread, an examination of the following links may prove helpful, for those with more than just a casual interest;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_%28spiritual%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_realization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Ten_Epithets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_%28concept%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata


There is an absolute wealth of information on this thread---it might be a good idea to make it a sticky.
Chris

[ThePythonicCow]

There is an absolute wealth of information on this thread---it might be a good idea to make it a sticky.
OK - sticky it is :).

[greybeard]

There is an absolute wealth of information on this thread---it might be a good idea to make it a sticky.
OK - sticky it is :).

Thanks Paul I appreciate this.
Chris

[giovonni]

About Time :thumb:

[greybeard]

People are conditioned to look for something ongoing, something new.
This thread is full of information that is unchanging---unchanged since the dawning of time.
The presentation may change but the finger continues to point to the Truth.
What is the Truth?
I invite you to explore Tim's thread and find out for yourself.

Chris

[Rantaak]

To access thoughtforms and vibrations closer to the level of source, we must abandon the ego. The language of the ego is closer to the vibration of solid matter.

If one can train their consciousness to abandon the language of the ego, ones thought-forms become a pure channel of the logos. This is not an easy thing to do for most people, especially given the way the world is shown to us today. I have achieved some success in thinking in this higher language and tapping into this energy, but the knack comes and goes at different times. I change one thing about my lifestyle, the subtlety of the knack changes along with it.

In the times that I have succeeded, I have observed very interestingly that when I look at other people near me, my mind has forgotten to create a conceptual barrier separating my identity from theirs. There is still a sense of identity, of agency, but that sense of agency is no longer confined within the "clay pot" of the ego - the ego (body identity) is completely forgotten. At moments this has been achieved, psychic awareness and telepathy are extremely heightened. I suspect it's easier to read other people's thoughts when your mind truly forgets its separateness from theirs.

Since I have noted this in my endeavor to attain the propensity to permeate the arcane as such, I figured I would share it here with other folks who are also working toward understanding the magical arts.

Cool thread, there's something to this. All of it is connected.

[Shabd_Mystic]

I find it interesting how so many supposedly "enlightened" people have a need to come onto the Internet to tell everyone how their "ego" has vanished. I always wonder what they must have been like when they still had an ego. :cool:

[Shezbeth]

I find it interesting how so many supposedly "enlightened" people have a need to come onto the Internet to tell everyone how their "ego" has vanished. I always wonder what they must have been like when they still had an ego. :cool:

Show me a person promoting enlightenment, and I'll show you a person who has a vested interest in being seen as such, currently or potentially.

My personal response to the thread title:

"... NOTHING"

[Shadowman]

I find it interesting how so many supposedly "enlightened" people have a need to come onto the Internet to tell everyone how their "ego" has vanished. I always wonder what they must have been like when they still had an ego. :cool:




Show me a person promoting enlightenment, and I'll show you a person who has a vested interest in being seen as such, currently or potentially.

My personal response to the thread title:

"... NOTHING"

Hello Shabd_Mystic and Shezbeth,


The motivation of all awakened beings to share the freedom they have realized is difficult for the mind to understand....

True Love has no vested interest.

True Love has nothing to gain, and nothing to lose....it just IS.

True Love is suprarational, it can be realized, but it cannot be understood.


Thankyou for sharing your perspectives. I shall respond to your wonder with a question Shabd_Mystic, who is the I that “has” an ego?

The Tao that can be expressed is not the eternal Tao;
The name that can be defined is not the unchanging Name.

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/naam/naam_shabd1.htm

And to Shezbeth, “...NOTHING” (Śūnyatā) as a response to the thread title is perfect. It is the same with enlightenment and death, "Nothing" happens, lol.

No thing = Nothing = Everything = All That IS,

From “I am That” - Nisargadatta

Q: You say at the root of the world is self-forgetfulness. To
forget I must remember: What did I forget to remember? I have
not forgotten that I am.
M: This ‘I am’ too may be a part of the illusion.
Q: How can it be? You cannot prove to me that I am not. Even
when convinced that I am not — I am.
M: Reality can neither be proved nor disproved. Within the
mind you cannot, beyond the mind you need not. In the real, the
question ‘what is real?’ does not arise. The manifested (saguna)
and unmanifested (nirguna) are not different.
Q: In that case all is real.
M: I am all. As myself all is real. Apart from me, nothing is real.

http://www.prahlad.org/gallery/nisargadatta/concordances/I_Am_That/html/IAT_025_2790_2989_.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81

With (True) Love / In Lak'ech
tim

[Shezbeth]

I would be more impressed if you were to tell me what you think.

There is a common theme in the 'Enlightened' crowd, that of using vacuous terminology and referencing other people's works and ideas. Surely SOMEONE must have firsthand experience with enlightenment, enough so to say more than authoritarian idioms! I mean, millions of pursuant individuals and groups can't be wrong can they? :biggrin1:

Enlightenment is not like graduating, you don't become it. It has been said that one is already/always enlightened, but if accurate that only serves to point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment. Is being born enlightenment?

I'm aware of the theory that everything is illusion, but good luck expressing anything without illusory hands, body, computer, etc.

Also, I agree that the self is all and all is the self, but that has little to no bearing on this 3-dimensional experience. Exhart Tolle may feel all one with the world sitting on a park bench, but then he goes and sells books.

[Shadowman]

I would be more impressed if you were to tell me what you think.

There is a common theme in the 'Enlightened' crowd, that of using vacuous terminology and referencing other people's works and ideas. Surely SOMEONE must have firsthand experience with enlightenment, enough so to say more than authoritarian idioms! I mean, millions of pursuant individuals and groups can't be wrong can they? :biggrin1:

Enlightenment is not like graduating, you don't become it. It has been said that one is already/always enlightened, but if accurate that only serves to point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment. Is being born enlightenment?

I'm aware of the theory that everything is illusion, but good luck expressing anything without illusory hands, body, computer, etc.

Also, I agree that the self is all and all is the self, but that has little to no bearing on this 3-dimensional experience. Exhart Tolle may feel all one with the world sitting on a park bench, but then he goes and sells books.

I think if you think thinking is going to lead you beyond thinking you should think again. To think that I think otherwise might lead some to think that thinking is impressive when in actuality I think that not thinking is worth thinking about,

See the happy moron
He doesn’t give a damn
I wish I were a moron
My God
perhaps I AM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNfS9Ywb2Cc


Enlightenment, relatively, is rather like waking up from a dream. In the dream you take yourself to be a dream character. One among many. Whether you are dreaming or not, the creator of the dream, that which created all of the characters, and the dream itself, remains the same. It is the substrate reality which remains when the temporary or illusory characters dissolve/evanesce upon waking up. It is also present in the dream, both absolutely and relatively.

So, from the perspective of the dream character, there is a definite shift in perspective of identity from that which is illusory and temporary, to that which was absolute and ever present. Now, you may say the shift is unreal because the dream character was unreal in the first place, however, paradoxically the dream character was also real in the absolute sense, as indicated in the last line of the passage quoted from I Am That.

Let us say you are dreaming you are a tiger. Within the identity, I am a tiger, is the absolute I AM. In fact contained within any illusory identity is the I AM. The I AM is real/eternal, whatever comes after I AM is usually relative and impermanent.

It is the same with thinking. Thinking, or the mind, also does a neat trick in impersonating the absolute sense of I AM, with the little I am, or ego. This is the “I am” referred to as an illusion in the bolded quote from I Am That.

I simply call it the thinking self, which is a matrix of thoughts / memories / experiences, as opposed to the real I AM which is more accurately described as pure awareness or being.

You “agree” that the self is all, and all is the self, but your terminology implies this is a belief. There is a vast difference between believing or knowing intellectually you are the Self to realizing it as in gnosis. But don’t take my word for it, find out for yourself. You are simply being offered the reality of who you are, in up to date modern terminology, as far as language permits. God 2.0 if you will, for those who can't be bothered pawing over ancient manuscripts and sutra's and translations. And the associated bickering over whose manuscript is right.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWOqHHE4upY

Also offered are some straightforward, simple techniques to help quieten the mind. In return, nothing is requested; not money, nor adulation, nor worship, nor beliefs, nor dietary requirements, nor postures, etc. At least not immediately. Your easy six part book payment plan and bowing guide will be pm’ed shortly ;)

The opening post is a direct account of what was experienced, as accurately as could be stated, whether you choose to accept it or not is entirely up to you.

A more detailed reading of the thread and associated links may provide a clearer sense of what the “full moon” IS, rather than playing devil’s advocate and getting hung up on the finger. But if you find it all absolute non/sense, don’t worry, it’s simply different strokes for different folks - there are many paths up the mountain, and while you will die many times on the journey, you will also almost die from laughing quite often.

Either way, I bid you all the best , my shadowy friend

In Love, Vacuous Light and Laughter,
tim

[Shezbeth]

I am more impressed by what is thought than what is believed; Belief implies conviction, from which egos and agendas get caught up, and onward like dominoes. Thought - on the other hand - can be maintained/discarded without attachment or significant consequence. But, that's just my experience of the two.


Enlightenment, relatively, is rather like waking up from a dream. In the dream you take yourself to be a dream character. One among many. Whether you are dreaming or not, the creator of the dream, that which created all of the characters, and the dream itself, remains the same. It is the substrate reality which remains when the temporary or illusory characters dissolve/evanesce upon waking up. It is also present in the dream, both absolutely and relatively.

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. My experience contests much of what you have said unless there is a stage beyond enlightenment, at which point we are in agreement.


Also offered are some straightforward, simple techniques to help quieten the mind. In return, nothing is requested; not money, nor adulation, nor worship, nor beliefs, nor dietary requirements, nor postures, etc. At least not immediately. Your easy six part book payment plan and bowing guide will be pm’ed shortly ;)

Money/materials are not the only methods by which something can be 'bought'. Besides, there seems a surplus of enlightened/ing individuals.

Think of it (this exchange) as (what appears to be) many people going down a particular road (which they realistically don't know what's at the end of) but all hoping for something or other at the end,... and one (or more) people walking down the same road in the opposite direction; Content to be doing so, and indicating to any who might be undecided and observing that in the end either direction is both sound and acceptable. ^_^

[Chester]

What a freaking great thread!!! - How did I miss this? (and the Voice said... "When the student is ready, the teacher appears").

Tell me - was this thread always a sticky?

Thanks tim and all contributors - I had the most mind blowing synchronicity (ok.... they are all mind blowing) yesterday when I found this thread.

Maybe I will post about it.

EDIT: Holy wow! I just discovered I thanked several posts in this thread months ago - what happened? Am I no longer who I was? Am I anyone? Who will I be tomorrow?

"Son... please go back to step one as your lovely, chattering mind has sadly returned." Yes, master

OK folks, I am having one of those fun days where I apparently like to play.

[greybeard]

Hi Chester.
Only recently a sticky.
We are very fortunate to have this thread.
A very clear account of enlightenment---not second hand.
A great resource.

Chris

[Shabd_Mystic]

I would be more impressed if you were to tell me what you think.

I haven't read every post so sorry if this is a duplicate but I have watched more than 50 videos in the last few days by someone who I'd never heard of before, Adyashanti, and he covers nearly every possible top regarding enlightenment. And unlike some who claim to have reached that state (and I am not talking about anyone who has posted here) I am absolutely convinced that he has.

He's an American guy who got into Zen heavily in his late teens. I'm usually very skeptical about such claims but this is a rare case where I'm both convinced and really like the guy. I've downloaded every YouTube video of his that I can find (more than 300) and have watched more than 50 thus far.

Here's a short video that talks about enlightenment (and there are many longer videos on YouTube that are worth a look):

Adyashanti - There Is No Such Thing As A Personal Awakening


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4CdMDdR2xg

[greybeard]

Adyashanti - There Is No Such Thing As A Personal Awakening

Tim says exactly the same thing.

This is an excellent thread.

Chris

[Shabd_Mystic]

Another excellent one, 7 minutes long -

Adyashanti - The Myth that Enlightenment is Rare (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IZdSnDkA24)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IZdSnDkA24

[Shabd_Mystic]

I watched this video in September and it had a profound affect on me as I began wondering if all the "spiritual" things that happen to us, usually from mystical practices, are in reality nothing more than the right half of the brain becoming dominant. Perhaps things such as many hours of meditation slowly subdue the left half of the brain and allow the right half to become dominant.

This is a Harvard-trained neuroscientist whose brain "exploded" in the mid 90s (the same happened to me a year ago and I am typing this from the nursing home I now live in, but I didn't get the same right-brain benefits - I had already had some of that from my mystical practice). She actually uses the word "nirvana" to describe the state she entered (and can now return to at will) and it made me wonder.

Surprisingly, she isn't a "typical" scientist who is Atheistic and she in fact believes her venture into the right-brain is when she is actually with God (for lack of a better definition). I was surprised to find that the right brain puts us in a state we sometimes refer to as nirvana, while the left brain is almost identical with what the path I follow says is controlled by "Kal" (the Gnostics called it the "Demiurge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge)" and I'm starting to see something that seems very similar in Buddhism called "Mara").

What I wonder is whether "God" controls the right brain while what The Bible calls "the god of this world" controls the left (which is dominated by ego), or if that's just the function of the brain which managed to fool countless sages and mystics through the ages who took what happened when the right-brain took over and attached "false" spiritual significance to it over time.

I mean, maybe the Buddha didn't experience what he thought he did. Maybe the right brain became dominant and he saw everything as one, etc. Anyway, these thoughts really haunted me for a long time because suddenly all I cared about, the ENTIRE focus of my life, might not be any more than an elaborate mind trick. I have recovered from that skepticism, mostly at least, but I figured I'd post the video and see what everyone thinks. It's 20 minutes long and truly compelling (so much so that I read her book and watched her 90-minute interview with Oprah after watching this). Here it is:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYD7Y9CXeUw&list=TLIjt9_J4zLvIEKnkhefeVGwf39w-Clkqz

[Shabd_Mystic]

More evidence that all mystical states, including enlightenment, might be no more than brain function:

http://www.viewzone.com/amygdala/

[Chester]

More evidence that all mystical states, including enlightenment, might be no more than brain function:

http://www.viewzone.com/amygdala/


If I had to bet... it is the brain that reflects in the functionality of its parts, including the amygdala, what the being imagines.

The world I experience can never be explained through the dynamic of materiality or physicality.

[greybeard]

Awareness exists without anything else--One without a second.
Nothing can exist without awareness.
What we tend to think of as real is temporary manifestation--that includes mind.
The question is "What is eternal?"

Chris

[Shadowman]

More evidence that all mystical states, including enlightenment, might be no more than brain function:

http://www.viewzone.com/amygdala/


Hello Shabd_Mystic,

This addresses a fundamental error in Western logic and materialism.

Namely that awareness, as opposed to mind/body consciousness, is a by product or outcome of physical existence.

While the latter, ie mind/body consciousness, is intimately inter-related, as the name suggests, with a body and mind; such consciousness is transient and ultimately only possible due to the plenary/source/substrate reality.

Pure Awareness or Being, does not need a foundation in physicality, as it is itself the foundation or source from which all apparent manifestations or appearances arise.

However, as it cannot be measured or detected by scientific instruments, the five senses or the mind, it cannot be proven materially or logically.

The great irony, and paradox (and cosmic inside joke) is that it is abundantly Self evident, and present in every experience, conceptualization and manifestation. So much so that people can’t see the forest for the trees, so to speak. In order to experience anything, be it an itch, an emotion or a thought, there must be awareness of it. This awareness is present before, during and after the experience. Whereas thoughts usually arise and interpret sensations after the fact.

Awareness is often confused with mind/body consciousness. Thinking is confused with Being. The relative thinking “I am” is confused with the absolute Being “I am”.

The dilemma in the Western mind, is that we are conditioned to believe in reality as having it’s foundation in physicality. We are taught that awareness is dependant upon a physical vehicle or form, that it requires a brain to “exist” or “live”. When in fact it is the other way around. Just as the ocean allows for all manner of life forms to exist within it, so the unified field or ocean of awareness allows for all manner of apparent relative life forms to “exist”.

While mind/body consciousness and altered states of mind/body consciousness can be initiated in many ways [ie chemically (internally induced such as serontonin/DMT or externally induced such as LSD/Ayahuasca/Psilocybin etc), harmonically or rhythmically pulsed light or sound waves, focusing on specific thought patterns, rigorous physical disciplines, emotional or psychological trauma, near death experiences, repetitive movements/dancing/swirling and various spiritual techniques] and for many purposes, [such as alleviating stress, curing and/or indulging addictions, becoming more creative, improving health and well being physically/emotionally/psychologically, personal development, recreational use, curiosity and escapism] their highest purpose is the Realization/Communion/Union with your Eternal True Being.

Such Realization is profound beyond words, and is self evidently independent of any and all phenomena, physical or otherwise. It is complete and absolute freedom. Freedom from all relative limitation and conceptualization. But it cannot be given to you or even proven to you. It must be realized directly.

Only you can know when you have sufficient courage, maturity and determination to enter fully into this great matter. Until then, the mind will always find distractions/temptations/complications/doubts to ensure it’s apparent survival/continuity/reign,

Namaste / With Love
tim

[meeradas]

That's a true Christmas post, Tim.

Filled with gifts.

Thank you.

[Shezbeth]

Only you can know when you have sufficient courage, maturity and determination to enter fully into this great matter. Until then, the mind will always find distractions/temptations/complications/doubts to ensure it’s apparent survival/continuity/reign,

I don't disagree with your thesis, but I would like to point out that you are suggesting that individuals who are skeptical/critical of this type of expression are immature, flighty cowards.

[Shadowman]

That's a true Christmas post, Tim.

Filled with gifts.

Thank you.

You're most welcome meeradas.

Wishing you the eternal peace and joy of "mass Christ" Consciousness.

May you avoid the materialistic pains/attachments of "Satan's Claw's" now and forever.

May we celebrate today the triumph of One who showed the way home,

who chose Love over Gold, and reminded us that above all else,

to Love God/All That Is, and in doing so, to Love one another,


Merry Christmas my beautiful and wise friend,
In Lak'ech / With Love
tim

[Shadowman]

Only you can know when you have sufficient courage, maturity and determination to enter fully into this great matter. Until then, the mind will always find distractions/temptations/complications/doubts to ensure it’s apparent survival/continuity/reign,

I don't disagree with your thesis, but I would like to point out that you are suggesting that individuals who are skeptical/critical of this type of expression are immature, flighty cowards.

Hello Shezbeth,

Thankyou for expressing your perspective.

Skepticism and criticism, as conceptual viewpoints, have their place in determining a suitable path/sadhana. Or in testing a potential teacher/master/guide. Like all states of mind, however, they can become a hindrance or obstacle having once embarked on a chosen method. The mind cannot lead you beyond itself. This is the meaning of Sosan’s wonderfully succinct statement;

To seek Mind with discriminating mind is the greatest of all mistakes.

Where Mind with a capital M denotes Awareness or Being. In order to pierce the grand illusion of duality, the subjective thinking “self” must be transcended...

When no discriminating thoughts arise,
the old mind ceases to exist.

When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes:

You are not being asked to agree with or believe anything, but rather being offered a way to find out directly for yourself what or who you are in the eternal, absolute sense. But in order to do this, you will have to vanquish/transcend your greatest adversary - your own mind.

Those who have advanced far along this journey, such as Chris and Chester, know well that the mind does not employ it’s full arsenal of defenses until earnestly challenged. For those that enter into this challenge unprepared, the pitfalls are many and varied. Once you have understood/experienced the power of the mind and what you are up against, you will appreciate more fully the courage referred to when, like Buddha, you stand unmoved in the face of it’s final assault and test.

A true master cannot walk the path for you, but they can shine a light on some of the obstacles you are likely to encounter. The spiritual maturity referred to enables one to meet with such challenges and obstacles with equanimity, and not be overwhelmed. Or as Rudyard Kipling put it...

If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same

Such maturity is developed, inspired and encouraged through all genuine paths by such things as selflessness, patience, sacrifice, generosity, tolerance, forbearance, kindness, fearlessness, honesty, transparency and unconditional love.

To recognize where a seeker is better served by developing these foundational qualities is not an act of judgement but rather an act of love. Ultimately though, it is for each to decide when they are ready to embark on the quest for Reality or Self Realization,

Wishing you a Joyous Christmas
With Love
tim

[Shezbeth]

I would be careful before claiming to represent what another person is saying, though I don't contest that one might identify with the essence of it.

My point is that when one makes characterizations as such (maturity etc), one is being ineffective toward anyone attempting to understand what you are expressing. Those who have already achieved the state will get it, but there are others to whom you might seem pompous and arrogant. It is a process, and I am familiar with the states that you refer to (though I continue to allude to the idea that there are states beyond such and that the state you describe is more of a pitfall for the unwary); I only allude to the idea that, while appearing to encourage the flowering of such realization you might actually be discouraging it in any other than those in whom it has already flowered and thereby it is useless to (except for individual ego-gratification which is supposed to have been transcended,....).

Humbug. :yo:

[Chester]

I can understand Tim's point. One doesn't generally grow down, they grow up. Not that there hasn't been this case, but I have never known someone who has awakened to switch and go the other way. It seems that once this bridge has been crossed, it is all but impossible to go back. That is how I took the comment of maturity - in relation to this awakening. I also recall how for years I studied the words of many masters and at times would intellectually "get it" but it never lasted. There's another form of "knowing" that has stealthily slipped inside and one day I realized it was there and see no possibility it can ever be not there... at least in this lifetime.

Post #188 - one of the very best posts I ever read - Thanks Tim... incredibly inspiring.

[greybeard]

Courage is required to accept as true what all enlightened have said throughout the ages.
The mind rebels.

Dr David Hawkins spoke of great fear as the only death possible occurred--the final death of the ego.
That too is an illusion but it seems you believe you are being confronted with your personal death.
Hence the advice that you have to die, give up your life for the love of God
He said "Only God walks through the final door"
When the final surrender was gone through it was found that life was more vibrant than he could possibly have imagined.
I believe him, Tim and others who are the forerunners of "human/spiritual" evolution.

There is no enlightened me.
The me is an "imposter" but very real.
St Teresa, when asked how she could treat those who had all kinds of infectious diseases, said "They are all Christ in disguise"

There are many blessings and pitfalls on the pathless path.
The true teacher advises on the pitfalls as well as encourages.

Chris

[Chester]

This one works here - when the final question is answered and yet another question arises, that question is nothing but an exercise of the mind when the mind has already been transcended in answering the final question.

A child can grow up and still engage in a game of hide and seek. But the game is never as it was when one was the child.

JF2ybmlShro

[greybeard]

Snap!!! I just posted this video on another thread Chester---syncronicity
Room for two the same--smiling.

Chris

[Chester]

and Wind posted it first I see!... a triple synchronicity!

For me, there is no more of a joyous experience than synchronicities shared with loved ones.

Synchronicities are the "impersonal miracles" in that they don't not come from an individual - they come from THE Living Being, the entirety of it all.

[Shezbeth]

Courage is required to accept as true what all enlightened have said throughout the ages.

You may call it courage - and it is! - but it also is submitting to authoritarian programming.

IMO, it takes significantly more courage - and no authoritarianism - to contest 'the enlightened' and their multitudes of followers. Edit: That in response to Mooji.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66823-Here-s-something-I-ve-learned...&p=776632&viewfull=1#post776632

[Chester]

It is the place one finds oneself once all the programming has slipped away.

There are no authorities much less any other labeled things.

Enlightenment can't be properly described, it can only be pointed to. Just because one or more of us points does not mean any other might ever "see" what is pointed to. Yet once seen... truly seen, it cannot be shaken, it cannot be argued away, it cannot be forgotten. It cannot be deconstructed as it is a whole and in fact, the whole.

All dots connect when enlightened. The dots as well as the connectors all become known as illusory.

Understanding pervades.

Compassion envelopes.

Pointing then becomes all encompassing.... all I ever find myself doing these days as it is tremendously joyful to experience another when the light goes on.

[johnf]

Tim, In light of all the discussion of the brain hemispheres, and the tendency
of many around here to see all brain phenomena as a reflection of things going on from elsewhere.
Is there something that seems to arise between embodied human consciousness, and pure awareness,
that has a left and right side?
I recall some mention of teachings for the left, and right sides from the Casteneda books, I don't think
they ever mentioned a pure energetic left and right side, but does one pass through something like that on the way to pure awareness?
I am aware that this would probably be more along the lines of appearance, so the word thing might be taken rather lightly here.

jf

[Shadowman]

Tim, In light of all the discussion of the brain hemispheres, and the tendency
of many around here to see all brain phenomena as a reflection of things going on from elsewhere.
Is there something that seems to arise between embodied human consciousness, and pure awareness,
that has a left and right side?
I recall some mention of teachings for the left, and right sides from the Casteneda books, I don't think
they ever mentioned a pure energetic left and right side, but does one pass through something like that on the way to pure awareness?
I am aware that this would probably be more along the lines of appearance, so the word thing might be taken rather lightly here.

jf


Hello johnf,

Not in my experience. While the state of Turiya, or the unidentified witness, preceded the final awakening sometimes referred to as Turiyatita, it was free of dualistic connotations such as the rational and creative hemisphere’s of the brain.

It had a sense of an individual or relative observer, but it was still separate from that which it was a witness to. But no, it couldn’t be described as having a left or right side, or even as a specific form of energy. Spatially it was non local.

Whereas Pure Awareness is more like a singularity where there is no separation between the witness and what is witnessed, or the act of witnessing itself,

Cheers,
tim

[Shadowman]

It is the place one finds oneself once all the programming has slipped away.

There are no authorities much less any other labeled things.

Enlightenment can't be properly described, it can only be pointed to. Just because one or more of us points does not mean any other might ever "see" what is pointed to. Yet once seen... truly seen, it cannot be shaken, it cannot be argued away, it cannot be forgotten. It cannot be deconstructed as it is a whole and in fact, the whole.

All dots connect when enlightened. The dots as well as the connectors all become known as illusory.

Understanding pervades.

Compassion envelopes.

Pointing then becomes all encompassing.... all I ever find myself doing these days as it is tremendously joyful to experience another when the light goes on.

Hi Chester,

Beautifully put. You have resolved perfectly the paradox of the continuing wave, even after it has realized it is none other than the Ocean.

Thankyou for your wonderful contributions to the thread. "Compassion Envelopes", yes, exactly - poetically masterful,

Namaste
tim

[Shadowman]

I would be careful before claiming to represent what another person is saying, though I don't contest that one might identify with the essence of it.

My point is that when one makes characterizations as such (maturity etc), one is being ineffective toward anyone attempting to understand what you are expressing. Those who have already achieved the state will get it, but there are others to whom you might seem pompous and arrogant. It is a process, and I am familiar with the states that you refer to (though I continue to allude to the idea that there are states beyond such and that the state you describe is more of a pitfall for the unwary); I only allude to the idea that, while appearing to encourage the flowering of such realization you might actually be discouraging it in any other than those in whom it has already flowered and thereby it is useless to (except for individual ego-gratification which is supposed to have been transcended,....).

Humbug. :yo:



Courage is required to accept as true what all enlightened have said throughout the ages.

You may call it courage - and it is! - but it also is submitting to authoritarian programming.

IMO, it takes significantly more courage - and no authoritarianism - to contest 'the enlightened' and their multitudes of followers. Edit: That in response to Mooji.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66823-Here-s-something-I-ve-learned...&p=776632&viewfull=1#post776632

Hi Shezbeth,

Expressing that which is beyond the mind, using the language of the mind, is bound to cause some difficulties.

Especially so where the recipient takes a skeptical or adversarial stance. Hence the special relationship between the guru and the disciple. When entered into properly, the disciple has understood fully the futility of rationality and logic in approaching the absolute. It is their faith in the guru, as a representation of the absolute, that allows them to transcend rational thought, and in doing so, to experience the death of the subjective object (which is where the courage comes in).

This maturity or understanding is usually preceded by a great deal of reading and research into religious experience or revelation, as the individual seeks to know about God in the same way that they seek knowledge about other phenomena.

Such pursuits may lead to extensive relative knowledge, but do not result in that which was sought for, either consciously or subconsciously. Ultimately what is being sought is not intellectual knowledge or understanding. Many are not even sure exactly what they are seeking, it may be a vague idea/concept ie a feeling of intuitively wishing to return “home”, or something more specific ie Yoga or union or a sense of Oneness with All That Is.

The other aspect of the maturity I referred to is the deepening realization that the nature of the reality you currently find yourself in is ultimately un-fulfilling. The ego promises fulfillment, usually at some point in the future, when you have attained ninja perfection, or landed the perfect partner, etc. however all relative attainments are impermanent. In duality you can’t have the ups without the downs. You cannot avoid suffering. When this has been understood deeply you are in a better position to meet with, and see through, the games/promises/fears projected by the egoic mind to maintain it’s position of power.

As long as you pursue the path of personal power, as long as you strengthen your sense of a relative self by standing alone or in opposition to the whole, the path and techniques prescribed by all awakened ones will seem to be contrary to your goals.

Jesuses admonition to not judge or resist evil, like Sosan’s opening statement in the Hsin Hsin Ming that "the Great Way is not hard for those who have no preferences", are both the means and the Way to fall into alignment with Pure Awareness and Unconditional Love. Awareness does not judge, nor is threatened by, any of the temporary appearances “within” it.

There are no pitfalls or traps for your true Self. It has nothing to fear and nowhere to go....

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=491774&viewfull=1#post491774

The excellence that you seek as a ninja is nothing more than an illusory mental relative concept. You need not seek perfection, just awaken to the fact that you already are perfect in reality. The identification with a temporary mind/body matrix is just an exploration of limited existence, it is not who you really are.

The techniques offered are not authoritarian programming, quite the opposite in fact. They are designed to free you from the programmed mind and it’s various beliefs and to experience directly what takes place when the mind is rendered quiescent.

Still, you are free to explore “personal power”, and this sandpit we call the world to your heart’s content. And I wish you all the joy and wonder that this great adventure offers.

If you have perceived arrogance where none was intended, know that from my “perspective”, in the only way that matters, we are absolutely equal. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, awakening does not automatically confer mastership ie the ability to communicate it and assist others to awaken. My style is direct and not for everyone.

It is perfectly OK however others choose to perceive what is offered. It is just a direct account using as simple terms as possible to try to clarify what is essentially your natural, eternal, beautiful, blissful Self. And to dispel the unhelpful ideas that it is impossible to realize, or requires miraculous powers to experience directly. You don't need to be rich, or be a prophet, or be a saint - it is open to everyone who seeks to know the truth of who they are above all worldly pursuits.

It is offered with Love and Joy and no expectations. Thanks again though for your comments, any constructive suggestions to improve the method/style of communication are appreciated,

In Lak’ech / Namaste
tim

[Shezbeth]

Expressing that which is beyond the mind,

Is it really beyond the mind, or is it perceived as being beyond the mind by the mind?


Hence the special relationship between the guru and the disciple. When entered into properly, the disciple has understood fully the futility of rationality and logic in approaching the absolute. It is their faith in the guru, as a representation of the absolute, that allows them to transcend rational thought, and in doing so, to experience the death of the subjective object

Yes! Authoritarianism! The Disciple "properly" submits to the representation of the absolute (as being such is unquestionable at worst or consequentially questionable at best - anyone here ever try questioning the "authority" amidst throngs of adherents?). I mean, it would not be proper to not submit right? Never mind that the Guru in question has voluntarily assumed the mantle (else they would denounce the perception of themselves as a Guru), it would be abject for someone to question it or what they say,.... There's a very lengthy vetting process for Gurus after all, it's a standardized professional term. :rolleyes:

"Tow the line and you'll get there too"

What is this, a ponzi scheme?


As long as you pursue the path of personal power, as long as you strengthen your sense of a relative self by standing alone or in opposition to the whole, the path and techniques prescribed by all awakened ones will seem to be contrary to your goals.

One of the key concepts in the path of personal power IS the petty tyrant. Blowhards (the gurus IMO) aren't the finest version, but they will do in a pinch.


The excellence that you seek as a ninja is nothing more than an illusory mental relative concept. You need not seek perfection, just awaken to the fact that you already are perfect in reality. The identification with a temporary mind/body matrix is just an exploration of limited existence, it is not who you really are.

The awareness is perfect, this is true (imo). The mind is faulty (being that it is limited and developing), and the body is unrefined (being that it is in constant ability to achieve higher standards of ability, composition, etc.). If you neglect either the mind or the body in favor of the awareness, you will have stagnancy. True, one can never have a conceptually 'perfect' mind or body, but that does not justify the complacency toward the development/fulfillment of either and moreover hints at the futility of conceptual 'perfection'. I suggest that the sublimity you are expressing/alluding to is as illusory as your perception of my attempt to develop all aspects of myself (mind, body, and awareness). The perceived difference is that at the end of the day my physical is exercised, and my mental is made less obstructed; to the best of my ability, both consciously and unconsciously.

Besides, the body is most convincingly finite. Are you suggesting that one dismiss their identification with the body on these grounds, because it sounds to me like finity is grounds to conducively invest more in identification. Life would not be precious if it were NOT finite.


it is open to everyone who seeks to know the truth of who they are above all worldly pursuits.

Again assumptions! You assume (perceive) that the path you speak of and the direction it leads is one of truth! You assume that what you find is above all worldly pursuits! Am I then conversing with pure awareness, or is it possible that I am conversing with a mind that has been seduced by the idea that it IS pure awareness? Am I conversing with an omniscient entity, or is the entity who's discourse I am THOROUGHLY enjoying one that has more to learn?

Learning is in the mind.

"You think you know, but really you have no idea" - E 40

[greybeard]

The Guru serves the student, not the other way around.
The teacher and the taught are the same.
For myself I questioned and cross referenced every teaching from every teacher I chose to learn from.
For me the teacher is not that important though he or she is appreciated, its the teaching I endeavour to follow, not the finger pointing.

Chris

[Shadowman]

Expressing that which is beyond the mind,

Is it really beyond the mind, or is it perceived as being beyond the mind by the mind?


Hence the special relationship between the guru and the disciple. When entered into properly, the disciple has understood fully the futility of rationality and logic in approaching the absolute. It is their faith in the guru, as a representation of the absolute, that allows them to transcend rational thought, and in doing so, to experience the death of the subjective object

Yes! Authoritarianism! The Disciple "properly" submits to the representation of the absolute (as being such is unquestionable at worst or consequentially questionable at best - anyone here ever try questioning the "authority" amidst throngs of adherents?). I mean, it would not be proper to not submit right? Never mind that the Guru in question has voluntarily assumed the mantle (else they would denounce the perception of themselves as a Guru), it would be abject for someone to question it or what they say,.... There's a very lengthy vetting process for Gurus after all, it's a standardized professional term. :rolleyes:

"Tow the line and you'll get there too"

What is this, a ponzi scheme?


As long as you pursue the path of personal power, as long as you strengthen your sense of a relative self by standing alone or in opposition to the whole, the path and techniques prescribed by all awakened ones will seem to be contrary to your goals.

One of the key concepts in the path of personal power IS the petty tyrant. Blowhards (the gurus IMO) aren't the finest version, but they will do in a pinch.


The excellence that you seek as a ninja is nothing more than an illusory mental relative concept. You need not seek perfection, just awaken to the fact that you already are perfect in reality. The identification with a temporary mind/body matrix is just an exploration of limited existence, it is not who you really are.

The awareness is perfect, this is true (imo). The mind is faulty (being that it is limited and developing), and the body is unrefined (being that it is in constant ability to achieve higher standards of ability, composition, etc.). If you neglect either the mind or the body in favor of the awareness, you will have stagnancy. True, one can never have a conceptually 'perfect' mind or body, but that does not justify the complacency toward the development/fulfillment of either and moreover hints at the futility of conceptual 'perfection'. I suggest that the sublimity you are expressing/alluding to is as illusory as your perception of my attempt to develop all aspects of myself (mind, body, and awareness). The perceived difference is that at the end of the day my physical is exercised, and my mental is made less obstructed; to the best of my ability, both consciously and unconsciously.

Besides, the body is most convincingly finite. Are you suggesting that one dismiss their identification with the body on these grounds, because it sounds to me like finity is grounds to conducively invest more in identification. Life would not be precious if it were NOT finite.


it is open to everyone who seeks to know the truth of who they are above all worldly pursuits.

Again assumptions! You assume (perceive) that the path you speak of and the direction it leads is one of truth! You assume that what you find is above all worldly pursuits! Am I then conversing with pure awareness, or is it possible that I am conversing with a mind that has been seduced by the idea that it IS pure awareness? Am I conversing with an omniscient entity, or is the entity who's discourse I am THOROUGHLY enjoying one that has more to learn?

Learning is in the mind.

"You think you know, but really you have no idea" - E 40

Hello Shezbeth,

You are being offered the means by which you may find out for yourself whether Self Realization is a perception, a belief, a projection of the mind or something else entirely. Have you ever explored Vipassana, Vichara or Zazen?

Whether you explore any of the techniques suggested, with or without a guru, is entirely up to you. The responsibility is yours and yours alone. All that prevents you are a few misguided ideas, such as actually believing you have something real to submit, or something real to lose.

The truth of who you are is the absolute truth, whereas assumptions and worldly pursuits are relative phenomena. I am not assuming the truth of Realization, it has been realized directly. Only you can prove or disprove this for yourself, not by knowing intellectually, but by spiritual awakening or gnosis. An examination of the links in the OP will give a fuller picture of this awakening, which goes by many names.

From the absolute perspective you are not conversing with Pure Awareness. Pure Awareness can only appear to be separated in a distorted reflection ie in the mind. It takes two to converse. In reality no separation has ever occurred. This is the sound of one hand clapping.

Your subjective object construct, or ego, is assuming an existence separate from the whole which is in fact an illusion. You have taken for granted that this illusory thinking I is real. If you Investigate whether this I is real you may ultimately find it is actually just a tale told by an idiot...signifying nothing,

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing. - Shakespeare

Namaste/ With Love
tim

[Tony]

Residue… not me.
RDXSnFd_gvQ


Tony

[greybeard]

Even without enlightenment following the advice of the enlightened brings much freedom in this world.
I can only speak from experience.
The mind which was troublesome has quietened down.
Fear has gone.
There is an ease and peace in situations which before would have been found difficult and stressful.
Sleep comes easy.
There is no longer a need to be right or to prove anything.
Things get done with out forcing or the need for perfection or outcome to be as desired.
In fact there is no driven action.
Life is full, fresh, enjoyed.
Anything which does not really suit is accepted.
There are preferences but not --got to have.
Life is much easier now.
If this is as good as it gets, that's ok.
Well worth the "work" that has been done.
Chris

[Shezbeth]

You are being offered the means by which you may find out for yourself whether Self Realization is a perception, a belief, a projection of the mind or something else entirely.

Can't it be all of the above?


All that prevents you are a few misguided ideas, such as actually believing you have something real to submit, or something real to lose.

That is certainly one way of perceiving things, but disagreement is not synonymous with being misguided outside your perspective. That which is submitted is no more or less real than this holographic 3-dimensional world for example, but this holographic 3-dimensional world is still lived in with it's "physical" laws, it's causes and effects.


From the absolute perspective you are not conversing with Pure Awareness. Pure Awareness can only appear to be separated in a distorted reflection ie in the mind. It takes two to converse. In reality no separation has ever occurred. This is the sound of one hand clapping.

Your subjective object construct, or ego, is assuming an existence separate from the whole which is in fact an illusion. You have taken for granted that this illusory thinking I is real. If you Investigate whether this I is real you may ultimately find it is actually just a tale told by an idiot...signifying nothing,

Agreed! On the one hand there is the singularity (call it what you will). On the other hand, there is everything else, including but not limited to this discourse and the individual parties involved.

Are you denying that this discourse is taking place? These illusory bodies, minds, egos, etc. type away at illusory computers and such, expressing illusory opinions formulated in illusory minds. And yet, whether illusory or not the mind is perceivable; The illusory body is likewise. Whether told by an "idiot", the idiot has a point. I challenge you to continue this discourse without using anything illusory (mind, body, etc.).

But here's one for you! Refer to the earlier TED video with the Neurologist and her left/right brain experience. The suggestion is made that the state of quiescence is still within the mind.

Edit: I'm fond of the Japanese term "Gambatte". It has no literal english equivalent, but can mean anything from "Do your best" to "Meet the challenge" and well beyond "Victory" et al. It assumes an endemic existence, equal parts conflict and unity.

Of course there is the perception/recognition/experience/memory(?) of all-inclusive one-ness beyond all limitation; That which is true, infinite, eternal, and most wise, etc. I'm suggesting that that whatever it is (experience, thing, etc. which can be perceived at any time once one re-conceives it) is only one pole on a scale of extance for which the entity is responsible for the entirety of.

By entity I am referring to the physical body experienced, the mind(s) so interconnected, and universal awareness; The symbiotic, synergistic, alchemical amalgamation of all individual parts.

[Shadowman]

You are being offered the means by which you may find out for yourself whether Self Realization is a perception, a belief, a projection of the mind or something else entirely.

Can't it be all of the above?


All that prevents you are a few misguided ideas, such as actually believing you have something real to submit, or something real to lose.

That is certainly one way of perceiving things, but disagreement is not synonymous with being misguided outside your perspective. That which is submitted is no more or less real than this holographic 3-dimensional world for example, but this holographic 3-dimensional world is still lived in with it's "physical" laws, it's causes and effects.


From the absolute perspective you are not conversing with Pure Awareness. Pure Awareness can only appear to be separated in a distorted reflection ie in the mind. It takes two to converse. In reality no separation has ever occurred. This is the sound of one hand clapping.

Your subjective object construct, or ego, is assuming an existence separate from the whole which is in fact an illusion. You have taken for granted that this illusory thinking I is real. If you Investigate whether this I is real you may ultimately find it is actually just a tale told by an idiot...signifying nothing,

Agreed! On the one hand there is the singularity (call it what you will). On the other hand, there is everything else, including but not limited to this discourse and the individual parties involved.

Are you denying that this discourse is taking place? These illusory bodies, minds, egos, etc. type away at illusory computers and such, expressing illusory opinions formulated in illusory minds. And yet, whether illusory or not the mind is perceivable; The illusory body is likewise. Whether told by an "idiot", the idiot has a point. I challenge you to continue this discourse without using anything illusory (mind, body, etc.).

But here's one for you! Refer to the earlier TED video with the Neurologist and her left/right brain experience. The suggestion is made that the state of quiescence is still within the mind.

Edit: I'm fond of the Japanese term "Gambatte". It has no literal english equivalent, but can mean anything from "Do your best" to "Meet the challenge" and well beyond "Victory" et al. It assumes an endemic existence, equal parts conflict and unity.

Of course there is the perception/recognition/experience/memory(?) of all-inclusive one-ness beyond all limitation; That which is true, infinite, eternal, and most wise, etc. I'm suggesting that that whatever it is (experience, thing, etc. which can be perceived at any time once one re-conceives it) is only one pole on a scale of extance for which the entity is responsible for the entirety of.

By entity I am referring to the physical body experienced, the mind(s) so interconnected, and universal awareness; The symbiotic, synergistic, alchemical amalgamation of all individual parts.

Hello Shezbeth,

The following posts address the issues referred to above. Identified as you are with the dualistic mind, you continue to confuse the unreal and impermanent ie concepts, beliefs, memories, mental projections, relative perceptions, bodies and mind's; with the eternal substrate reality in which they appear. Whether you agree or disagree (functions of the dualistic mind), is irrelevant to Awareness/Realization.

You challenge me to continue this discourse without using an illusory body/mind. The paradox is that in reality no body/mind has been used...

"The more you talk and think about it, the further astray you wander from the truth.
Stop talking and thinking, and there is nothing you will not be able to know." - Sosan

"One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created of material nature, and sees that the Self does nothing, actually sees." - Bhagavad Gita 13:30

"You do not believe me when I tell you about the things of this world; how will you ever believe me, then, when I tell you about the things of heaven?" - John 3:12

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=483135&viewfull=1#post483135

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=481460&viewfull=1#post481460

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=472609&viewfull=1#post472609


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo

Have you ever explored Vipassana, Vichara or Zazen? Did you examine the links in the OP?

With Love / In Lak'ech
tim

[Shezbeth]

Dualistic? There's far more than two aspects you'll be surprised to discover. Someday.

But not today (not from me anyhow). This exercise has played its self out, and I tire of the authoritarian rhetoric; That it is presented as being otherwise belies innocence, ignorance, or duplicity.

That fuzzy feeling one gets? Endorphins. Everything else is a psychological desire to legitimize the experience of endorphins, and any conclusions which generate them. From this experience a hierarchy of thought/individuals formulates (depending on if it is one person experiencing or if there is a group). But don't take my word for it. Besides, that is just one level of the equation.

Those who are want to express responsibility in all things shall do so, and those who wish to do less shall likewise for ever-infinite reasons. It matters not what anyone calls themselves - literally or implicitly - but woe to those who seek titles and identifications.

The end of every pursuit - whether real, "real", or unreal - is the beginning of another, every thing or no thing followed by the next. Why is irrelevant, and the truth does not need to be advertized.

"Before enlightenment one should chop wood and tend the fields. After enlightenment one should chop wood and tend the fields." - Paraphrase of Buddhist Proverb

:yawn:

[GarethBKK]

Enjoyed the rhetoric. But, ultimately...

"To one who knows nothing, It is clearly revealed."

Thus, I revel in knowing nothing. I just keep asking who has the feeling of being 'fuzzy' on endorphins. Is it merely a thought coming from mind? Who is that observing the thoughts of mind? Who is measuring 'fuzziness' against the backdrop of no fuzziness? Who am I? I don't know, but I keep on asking until I become adept at two-way looking. Looking at the Beautiful dance between the no-thing in and the every-thing out.

[Shadowman]

Dualistic? There's far more than two aspects you'll be surprised to discover. Someday.


To a ninja there are only two things:
The Ninja, which includes all physiological attributes and characteristics that are under the direct or implicit control of said entity (body, limbs, senses, etc.),
and
The Universe, which encompasses every observable phenomenon outside the direct volition/involvement of the Ninja.




But not today (not from me anyhow). This exercise has played its self out, and I tire of the authoritarian rhetoric; That it is presented as being otherwise belies innocence, ignorance, or duplicity.


Or arrogance, or pomposity, or just plain nuts... but you’re right, our exchange has become far too serious, what’s the point of enlightenment if you can’t lighten up...

http://www.rocktivity.com/Graphics/justPlainNuts.gif



That fuzzy feeling one gets? Endorphins. Everything else is a psychological desire to legitimize the experience of endorphins, and any conclusions which generate them. From this experience a hierarchy of thought/individuals formulates (depending on if it is one person experiencing or if there is a group). But don't take my word for it. Besides, that is just one level of the equation.


Endorphins? I thought that fuzzy feeling was the cat napping on my lap, and I’ll be darned if I’m going to legitimize the cat, it already treats me like a staff member.



Those who are want to express responsibility in all things shall do so, and those who wish to do less shall likewise for ever-infinite reasons. It matters not what anyone calls themselves - literally or implicitly - but woe to those who seek titles and identifications.


I am the greatest, most mystical and metaphysical wolf ninja that THIS world has seen in a REALLY long time! The grand-celestial Coyote shaman for whom the seas of awareness do part GLADLY! I have many names, but those who know me best call me FA-san!

Says it all, really. (Thirty years ago I became a wolf, although it was after consuming a bottle of vodka, so not sure if that counts...)

Edit 30/12/13: Shezbeth has advised me that this self description was intentionally ridiculous and not meant to be taken seriously, so clearly not only was he not seeking titles or identifications, but also has an exquisite sense of humour. Such are the perils and misunderstandings of the written word. I trust the intended satire caused no offense.



The end of every pursuit - whether real, "real", or unreal - is the beginning of another, every thing or no thing followed by the next. Why is irrelevant, and the truth does not need to be advertized.


Zen is selling water by the river. Perhaps if I put a big enough advertising sign it will block the view of the river. If the fools don't realize they already have all the water they need for free, I can really shift some merchandise. Thanks for the tip, ;).



"Before enlightenment one should chop wood and tend the fields. After enlightenment one should chop wood and tend the fields." - Paraphrase of Buddhist Proverb
:yawn:

It happened: a Zen Master was chopping wood. A man had come to enquire. He had heard the name of the Zen Master. It had been a long journey to come to the mountains where the Master lived with his disciples. He asked this woodcutter – because he could not think that the Master would be chopping wood – he asked this woodcutter,
”I have heard about a great Zen Master who is enlightened. Where is he?”
And the Master said, ”Look at me! I am that!”
The seeker thought this man to be mad. Still, to be polite with him – and it is better to be polite with a madman.... And he had a great axe in his hand, and who knows? And he looked so ferocious....
And he said, ”I am that! What do you want?”
He said, ”So you are that great Master. What did you do before your enlightenment?”
He said, ”I used to chop wood and carry water from the well.”
”And now what do you do?”
He said, ”I chop wood and carry water from the well.”
And the man said, ”Then what is the difference? Then what is the point of your enlightenment if you still chop wood and carry the water from the well?”
And the Master laughed... and the mountains must have laughed with him, and the trees. It is said that around that monastery, still, after thousands of years, sometimes that laughter is heard. He laughed and said,
”You fool! Before enlightenment I used to chop wood, I used to carry water. Now water is carried, wood is chopped. I am not the doer; that is the difference.”

A simple yet profound distinction, yes?

With Love and Laughter
tim

[Shadowman]

Enjoyed the rhetoric. But, ultimately...

"To one who knows nothing, It is clearly revealed."

Thus, I revel in knowing nothing. I just keep asking who has the feeling of being 'fuzzy' on endorphins. Is it merely a thought coming from mind? Who is that observing the thoughts of mind? Who is measuring 'fuzziness' against the backdrop of no fuzziness? Who am I? I don't know, but I keep on asking until I become adept at two-way looking. Looking at the Beautiful dance between the no-thing in and the every-thing out.

Hello GarethBKK,

Exactly. Thankyou. Elegant simplicity.

When you are deluded and full of doubt, even a thousand books of scripture are not enough. When you have realized understanding, even one word is too much. - Fen Yang

Namaste
tim

[Chester]

Another thing that you notice as your energy increases is synchronicities or meaningful coincidences. For instance within 15 mins of your post your dilemma was responded to by the Totality via Chris in post 38. Chris pointed out succinctly your solution, which I have put somewhat more verbosely above, lol. (love your work Chris :) )


I am an odds maker by trade. For me to get and keep my job - the job that pays my bills, I must consistently produce prices for propositions such that someone who wants to bet any of the selections within the proposition loses more than they win. This means I have to be pretty good at assessing the value of the relevant factors that determine outcomes. This means I better be reasonably decent with probability. Because I have to be pretty good at assessing outcome probabilities, it would seem I may also possess the ability to spot "coincidences" that suggest there is far more to the generation of the various coinciding events than may fall within the realistic odds.

One of the talents required of a decent odds maker is having the ability to spot correlations.

What I found is that as I have journeyed the process of awakening I discovered a clear and obvious increase in "synchronicity" experiences.

This morning I set forth to write about one. Yet I also have been in process of reading all the posts in this thread. I go from one thing to another on a whim - such is my life now. Strangely I came upon post #44 and BAM, there was Tim stating his experience of a rise in synchronicity experiences in relation to his awaking. That is evidence. It feels good not to be alone.

And now the story.

About a month ago I woke up one morning with the strangest feeling to draw it all up. Another mind exercise that certainly was nothing new to others but one thing new came to me. I drew the following -

24313

Notice the top of the page I wrote above the above.

Later that same day I had lunch with my son who is 19. I expressed to him that I felt there was a "stateless state" prior to the causal. I told him I had never heard of that before. I told him it can only be described as such from within the relative world. I told him that "from this place" no concepts, forms can be perceived.

That evening I came home and got on this forum. I went to greybeard's thread regarding transcending the ego. I discovered this thread and even posted about it asking how come I had not seen it before? I was told it had just been made a "sticky."

As I read the OP, I saw the list of links that explained more. One of the links immediately stuck out to me because there's a poster here who had taken this poster name - Turiya.

I had not even carefully read the OP but I had to see what this term might mean so I could understand why this poster took the name.

and low and behold - Turiya is the word for what I had come to me that morning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya


It is the background that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness of waking consciousness, dreaming, and dreamless sleep.

So now what are the odds?

What are the odds I have this... meditative experience - that I was so caught up with I shared with my son - that I come home and it just so happens that this thread was made a sticky which, when I saw the thread author I had to open - that I saw it was a lengthy OP which I felt I would be better off reading when I had settled down to focus - yet I happen to see Turiya in a list of links - that my curiosity to look at what Turiya was because I was curious why a poster had taken that name - and that Turiya turns out to be precisely what randomly came to me that very morning? The probability of all this is one in godzillion.

And this happens allllll the time now. It is like the Universe is thanking me with constant confirmations that I recognize it is all one eternal being and the "I," Chester, is just one of infinite expressions of this very Being.

How could I possibly ever fear "end?" How could death be real?

All the fears melt away.

This has taken hold and at least in this one of infinite conscious experiences, I am certain will never be forgotten. Can't make odds when one of the selections is 100%.

What peace...

I added this to my silly drawing after I made the discovery.

24315

[Shadowman]

Another thing that you notice as your energy increases is synchronicities or meaningful coincidences. For instance within 15 mins of your post your dilemma was responded to by the Totality via Chris in post 38. Chris pointed out succinctly your solution, which I have put somewhat more verbosely above, lol. (love your work Chris :) )


I am an odds maker by trade. For me to get and keep my job - the job that pays my bills, I must consistently produce prices for propositions such that someone who wants to bet any of the selections within the proposition loses more than they win. This means I have to be pretty good at assessing the value of the relevant factors that determine outcomes. This means I better be reasonably decent with probability. Because I have to be pretty good at assessing outcome probabilities, it would seem I may also possess the ability to spot "coincidences" that suggest there is far more to the generation of the various coinciding events than may fall within the realistic odds.

One of the talents required of a decent odds maker is having the ability to spot correlations.

What I found is that as I have journeyed the process of awakening I discovered a clear and obvious increase in "synchronicity" experiences.

This morning I set forth to write about one. Yet I also have been in process of reading all the posts in this thread. I go from one thing to another on a whim - such is my life now. Strangely I came upon post #44 and BAM, there was Tim stating his experience of a rise in synchronicity experiences in relation to his awaking. That is evidence. It feels good not to be alone.

And now the story.

About a month ago I woke up one morning with the strangest feeling to draw it all up. Another mind exercise that certainly was nothing new to others but one thing new came to me. I drew the following -

24313

Notice the top of the page I wrote above the above.

Later that same day I had lunch with my son who is 19. I expressed to him that I felt there was a "stateless state" prior to the causal. I told him I had never heard of that before. I told him it can only be described as such from within the relative world. I told him that "from this place" no concepts, forms can be perceived.

That evening I came home and got on this forum. I went to greybeard's thread regarding transcending the ego. I discovered this thread and even posted about it asking how come I had not seen it before? I was told it had just been made a "sticky."

As I read the OP, I saw the list of links that explained more. One of the links immediately stuck out to me because there's a poster here who had taken this poster name - Turiya.

I had not even carefully read the OP but I had to see what this term might mean so I could understand why this poster took the name.

and low and behold - Turiya is the word for what I had come to me that morning.

So now what are the odds?

What are the odds I have this... meditative experience - that I was so caught up with I shared with my son - that I come home and it just so happens that this thread was made a sticky which, when I saw the thread author I had to open - that I saw it was a lengthy OP which I felt I would be better off reading when I had settled down to focus - yet I happen to see Turiya in a list of links - that my curiosity to look at what Turiya was because I was curious why a poster had taken that name - and that Turiya turns out to be precisely what randomly came to me that very morning? The probability of all this is one in godzillion.

And this happens allllll the time now. It is like the Universe is thanking me with constant confirmations that I recognize it it is all one eternal being and the "I," Chester, is just one of infinite expressions of this very Being.

How could I possibly ever fear "end?" How could death be real?

All the fears melt away.

This has taken hold and at least in this one of infinite conscious experiences, I am certain will never be forgotten. Can't make odds when one of the selections is 100%.

What peace...

I added this to my silly drawing after I made the discovery.

24315

Hello Chester,

What Peace indeed, eh.

I know I posted these on another thread, but they are relevant to Turiya and Sunyata. The vids are hilarious and priceless...

Welcome to the club, or as the elder Spock would say - "technically you are on the inside now".

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. - Luke 17:21

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52373-How-to-find-god-in-two-easy-steps&p=758436&viewfull=1#post758436

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52373-How-to-find-god-in-two-easy-steps&p=758615&viewfull=1#post758615

Shalom / In Lak'ech
tim

Shalom is a rich term which means more than peace as absence of war or inner turmoil. According to Strong’s Concordance, the Hebrew word Shalom means completeness, wholeness, health, peace, welfare, safety, soundness, tranquility, prosperity, perfectness, fullness, rest, harmony, the absence of agitation or discord. Shalom comes from a root verb meaning to be complete, perfect and full. So it is a kind of fullness of life, both materially and spiritually, in relations with God and man, that is expressed here.

From here,

http://wordincarnate.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/peace-be-with-you/

[Shezbeth]

Shezbeth has advised me that this self description was intentionally ridiculous and not meant to be taken seriously, so clearly not only was he not seeking titles or identifications, but also has an exquisite sense of humour.

Thank you for the derisive introduction. :yo:

I never said any of it was not to be taken seriously, I said it was intentionally impossible, over-the-top, and ridiculous.

Impossible because they contradict/conflict with the consistently observable phenomena (laws) of the 3-dimensional reality our bodies inhabit, Over-The-Top and Ridiculous because they are observations others have bestowed upon me - I didn't initially say it or choose to be referred to as such - but they seem rightly ridiculous when strung together so. Ultimately everything is ridiculous - myself included - and I would prefer that be the side I expose to people looking to learn more about me. There are those however to whom such originating circumstances are a very serious matter, myself included.

Everything contained in my description refers to actual phenomena that was at the time - and in some cases continues to be - of great significance to myself and those in participation. They are not titles, they are a litany of deeds alluding to shared experience which is uncontestable to those witness of and involving perception/realization/comprehension/redirection unattributable to books, media, experience, or other form of input perceivable.

Carry on with your descriptions of enlightenment.

[Chester]

It seems to boil down to form "winning out" with respect to there being a "right" point of view. I would make odds that until one rests in Turiyatita, form always has its claws imbedded in one's psyche.

Today I experienced (again) confirmation I no longer am stuck in form yet can "play" like a child in the illusory realms of form. Of course, to say this comes from the world of form. Who could I be speaking to? Couldn't be "those trapped in that view... no, no no."

Today I discovered by way of a fellow co-worker that one of my employers who happens to owe me thousands in back pay is taking his family on vacation to Mexico for a week.

The "actor" emerged. I became "outraged." I became "indignant." I ranted and raved to my co-worker friend, "this is it!" "How can I respect myself when I allow this jerk to continue to use and abuse me like this?!!"

Yet, while I was "performing," I felt so strangely detached. Yes... very true. I saw myself "acting." I could roar like a lion and my co-worker friend started to beg me not to leave (as he knows the load that would fall upon his shoulders)... but he couldn't see it was all just an act. So very strange is life now.

There was no fear, there was no real anger, there was no ego that was bruised and I can say this because as the event was unfolding, I was laughing... yes, laughing at it all. Like watching a play and yet you are in the play and you are directing the play and you have written the story the play is based on.

Apologies for the rambling post... my intention was simply to share how approaching enlightenment might be like.

Its all just fun now... strangely fun...

[greybeard]

Nasardadatta was some what fiery,he could get annoyed then laughing next minute.
Dr Hawkins said that aspiring to be a Saint is a different path from enlightenment, though their are enlightened Saints,
People expect the enlightened to be extraordinary,emitting love all the time, but it seems they are more ordinary than the "others"
As far as showing one emotion while being calm inside that can be part of the process, Adyashanti said he can have a point of view but there is no emotion behind it. "There is no belief that the point of view is right or wrong"
Im almost there with that. I dont have to be right but I prefer to be.

Ramesh was a joker and after a day of losing at the races said "What's the point of being enlightened if you cant pick a winning horse?"
He also said "If you have the choice of a £million or enlightenment, take the money for if you choose enlightenment there is no one there to enjoy it"
He was Banker to trade, though retired.

Chris

[Chester]

Hi Tim - I found this link (and I am providing the link as it is the source of the text below - be careful with the link as it appears full of popups, etc) - http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/chidakasa.html

My question is about the text - specifically the description of Turiyatita - Is this reasonably "accurate" at least as to its pointing?


TURIYATITA: Chidakasa in Cosmic Consciousness


Under the Natural Law there are three qualities inherent in every human being. These three qualities are Purity, Activity and Inertia (Sattva, Rajas and Tamas).

Every individual is prompted to act when he is under the influence of one of these qualities predominant in him. In this way evolution of every human being takes place under an impartial Law which guarantees just and proper reward for an individual’s actions under the Law of Nature. Thus good actions lead to good results and bad actions to bad results to the doer concerned. When one undertakes a Spiritual Venture that is intuitional in character, one has to pass through five different states of the mind:


The first state is the awake or conscious state.

The second state is the dream or sub-conscious state. When we are awake we see everything around us limited by the power of our sense organs, while as we dream, we gravitate between the awakened and the dream states.

The third state is the ‘deep-sleep state’ when the mind passes through a state in which we are not normally aware of anything that happens around us. In order to pass beyond this state one has to have complete control over one’s ‘deep sleep state’ like ‘Gudakesa’.

The fourth state is the ‘Turiya’ or the ‘state transcendental’ or the ‘Serene and Blessed state’ that the Mystic Poets and Saints are reported to experience. It is the Natural Law that controls the entry into the ‘Turiya State’. This entry is possible only to one who has completely purified the mind. ‘Turiya is absolutely intuitional’ and can be experienced only in meditation or sequestered contemplation. See the Fourth Rank of the Five Ranks of Tozan.

The fifth state is ‘Turiyatita’. The great Saints and Sages such as Hui-neng, the Sixth Patriarch of C'han, and the Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi and possibly in today's world, if not in the fifth state, most certainly the fourth state, Aziz Kristof, remained in ‘Turiyatita’ when they attained a mindless-space (Chidakasa) in Cosmic Consciousness. Here the Self or the one ceases to function since the ‘mind-space’ transforms itself into mindless-space in unmitigated Spirituality, that never manifests itself. In this state, there is no question of return to the oneself, since it becomes one with the source by the Grace of Unmanifested spirituality.

TURIYATITA (Chidakasa): Zen master Tai-yung, passing by the retreat of another Zen master named Chih-huang, stopped and during his visit respectfully asked, "I am told that you frequently enter into Samadhi. At the time of such entrances, does your consciousness continue or are you in a state of unconsciousness? If your consciousness continues, all sentient beings are endowed with consciousness and can enter into Samadhi like yourself. If, on the other hand, you are in a state of unconsciousness, plants and rocks can enter into Samadhi." Huang replied, "When I enter into a Samadhi, I am not conscious of either condition." Yung said, "If you are not conscious of either condition, this is abiding in eternal Samadhi, and there can be neither entering into a Samadhi nor rising out of it." (source)


According to Vedanta, man is a combination of Bhutakasa, Chitthakasa and Chidakasa. Bhutakasa corresponds to the body and all that is seen by the naked eye. All that is seen is bound to disappear, which means Bhutakasa is transient and ephemeral. The sun, the stars and the milky way which are miles away from earth also come under Bhutakasa. The rivers, seas, forests and mountains, all form part of Bhutakasa. It constitutes all Bhutas (elements) and living beings. Such a vast Bhutakasa is engulfed by Chitthakasa. You can very well imagine the vastness of Chitthakasa. Bhutakasa consisting of sun, stars, rivers, oceans, etc., forms a tiny part of Chitthakasa. You may wonder how it is possible. Whatever you see, for example, the sun, the stars, the oceans, the mountains, etc., get imprinted in your Chittha. Likewise, the apparent world is contained in you as a small entity. Bhutaka= sa and Chitthakasa relate to the body and mind, respectively. There is a fundamental basis for these two which is referred to as Chidakasa by the Vedanta. This corresponds to the Atma. Human being is a combination of these three - Bhutakasa (body), Chitthakasa (mind) and Chidakasa (Atma). The first refers to the one you think you are, the second, the one others think you are and the third, the one you really are.

Man's nature is infinite and immortal. Such a human life is looked down upon as low and mean. People deny the existence of the Atma as it cannot be perceived. Chidakasa symbolises the Atma. It has no form. It is changeless and Transcends Time and Space. The Vedanta describes this as Nirgunam, Niranj= anam, Sanathana Niketanam, Nitya, Suddha, Buddha, Mukta, Nirmala Swarupinam (attributeless, pure, final abode, eternal, unsullied, enlightened, free and embodiment of sacredness). Bhutakasa corresponds to Jagrat (waking state), Chitthakasa to Swapna (dream state) and Chidakasa to Sushupti (deep sleep). In Chidakasa, one experiences only bliss.

[Shadowman]

Hi Tim - I found this link (and I am providing the link as it is the source of the text below - be careful with the link as it appears full of popups, etc) - http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/chidakasa.html

My question is about the text - specifically the description of Turiyatita - Is this reasonably "accurate" at least as to its pointing?

TURIYATITA: Chidakasa in Cosmic Consciousness

The fourth state is the ‘Turiya’ or the ‘state transcendental’ or the ‘Serene and Blessed state’ that the Mystic Poets and Saints are reported to experience. It is the Natural Law that controls the entry into the ‘Turiya State’. This entry is possible only to one who has completely purified the mind. ‘Turiya is absolutely intuitional’ and can be experienced only in meditation or sequestered contemplation. See the Fourth Rank of the Five Ranks of Tozan.

The fifth state is ‘Turiyatita’. The great Saints and Sages such as Hui-neng, the Sixth Patriarch of C'han, and the Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi and possibly in today's world, if not in the fifth state, most certainly the fourth state, Aziz Kristof, remained in ‘Turiyatita’ when they attained a mindless-space (Chidakasa) in Cosmic Consciousness. Here the Self or the one ceases to function since the ‘mind-space’ transforms itself into mindless-space in unmitigated Spirituality, that never manifests itself. In this state, there is no question of return to the oneself, since it becomes one with the source by the Grace of Unmanifested spirituality.

Hi Chester,

No matter what is said here it is likely to be misunderstood by any who have not yet experienced at least samadhi/satori. Which is why I place the emphasis on practice/sadhana rather than discussion. While most can rationallly understand Turiya or detached/purified awareness, it becomes exponentially more paradoxical and non-sensical when attempting to communicate Turiyatita.

Why would an awakened being teach or make claims of enlightenment in the first place, if there are none to teach and nothing to gain or lose? Such relative questions can only be resolved through the direct realization of unconditional love and the enveloping compassion, as you so poetically put it. Unconditional love is more like the spontaneous emission of a beautiful fragrance from a flower rather than a volition.

Having said that the description above is a reasonable pointer. Enlightened teachers often have used a system of degrees or initiations to avoid imparting knowledge to those without direct experience. To others the teaching is veiled in symbolism using metaphors and parables. This is because from the point of view of the relative or illusory state the truth actually appears ridiculous, and to the established religious and political authorities, it is perceived as dangerous.

So concessions are made depending on the situation and the depth of understanding/experience of the recipient (this can be difficult to assess on an internet forum ;) ). The above description of Turiyatita makes such concessions to the relative, linear perspective. Whilst they are not absolutely correct, they serve the purpose in inspiring seekers to attain it.



TURIYATITA (Chidakasa): Zen master Tai-yung, passing by the retreat of another Zen master named Chih-huang, stopped and during his visit respectfully asked, "I am told that you frequently enter into Samadhi. At the time of such entrances, does your consciousness continue or are you in a state of unconsciousness? If your consciousness continues, all sentient beings are endowed with consciousness and can enter into Samadhi like yourself. If, on the other hand, you are in a state of unconsciousness, plants and rocks can enter into Samadhi." Huang replied, "When I enter into a Samadhi, I am not conscious of either condition." Yung said, "If you are not conscious of either condition, this is abiding in eternal Samadhi, and there can be neither entering into a Samadhi nor rising out of it." (source)



The difficulty here is the attempt by Tai-yung to put Turiyatita into words, and the terminology that he (or more possibly the translator) uses. It is the same as the Buddhist use of the word Mind with a capital M (meaning Awareness) contrasted to the western use of the word mind (meaning intellect).

Consciousness and unconsciousness relate to the mind. So when Tai-yung asks;

"I am told that you frequently enter into Samadhi. At the time of such entrances, does your consciousness continue or are you in a state of unconsciousness? If your consciousness continues, all sentient beings are endowed with consciousness and can enter into Samadhi like yourself. If, on the other hand, you are in a state of unconsciousness, plants and rocks can enter into Samadhi."

he is really asking does Chih-huang’s waking mind, or thinking self, remain whilst he is in samadhi. (and more importantly, does Chih-huang identify with this illusory self)

Chih-huang’s answer that he is not “conscious” of either condition refers to the innate state of unseparated Awareness. By this it is meant that the mind states, including the waking/dreaming/deep sleep/conscious and unconscious are all impermanent and illusory. Therefore to not be “conscious” of either condition implies abiding in the Self or Awareness. There is no extant observer.

As you have discovered for yourself Chester, once awakened it is realized you were eternally awakened. The paradox of temporal and spatial limitation also having been realized as illusory.

Tai-yung’s closing statement;

"If you are not conscious of either condition, this is abiding in eternal Samadhi, and there can be neither entering into a Samadhi nor rising out of it."

suggest’s that the question may have been a test, and that he was all along aware of the absolute nature of Turiyatita.

While the illusion of the ego, or thinking self, may arise after episodes of samadhi, or satori have been experienced, once the final realization of Turiyatita occurs, the liberation from illusion is final and irreversible. Again, to onlookers, still identified as they are with forms, this is confusing, as the awakened being appears to continue to function as they did prior to enlightenment. Chris's post covering Ramana's comments on this is an excellent explanation for those interested;

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=777920&viewfull=1#post777920

also relevant are two comments found while checking your link...

When the Buddha was walking along the road to Benares following his post-Enlightenment pause he was approached by a wandering ascetic. According to the custom of the time the ascetic greeted him and asked who his teacher was or what doctrine he followed. The Buddha told the wanderling that he was "the Victor and Conqueror of the World, superior to gods and men, an All-Enlightened One beholden to no teacher." The wandering ascetic could see no hint of anything of the Buddha's nature and wandered off as wanderlings are oft to do, mumbling under his breath something like, "If it were only so!"

To those identified with an ego Buddha's statement appears egotistical, to those awakened, it is simply an expression of what IS.

Those identified with forms, question the actions and statements of an awakened one, which can always be viewed as contradictory or inconsistent from a rational standpoint, rather than realizing what their actions and statements are pointing towards...

Nothing external can serve as the sign of the sannyasi (Awakened One). He may roam throughout the world, he may hide himself in caves and jungles, and equally he may live in the midst of the multitude and even share in the world's work without losing his solitude. The unperceptive will never notice him; only the evamvid (the one who knows thus) will recognize him, since he too abides in the depth of the Self. However, anyone who is already in the slightest degree Awakened cannot fail to experience something of his radiance--a taste, a touch, a gleam of light--which only the interior sense can perceive, and which leaves behind it a truly wonderful impression.

Namaste
tim

[Chester]

So much in this thread and so much in your response, Tim, to my post...

So now some more water is going to be carried, more wood is about to be chopped - here goes.


The Buddha told the wanderling that he was, "the Victor and Conqueror of the World, superior to gods and men, an All-Enlightened One beholden to no teacher." The wandering ascetic could see no hint of anything of the Buddha's nature and wandered off as wanderlings are oft to do, mumbling under his breath something like, "If it were only so!"

To those identified with an ego Buddha's statement appears egotistical, to those awakened, it is simply an expression of what IS.

I can still recall when Chester perceived ego in the enlightened. I was driving the other day "attacking my list" when I looked at my watch, saw my location and realized I was a few minutes away from the start of an AA meeting just around the corner. I rarely go but I had the strangest impulse to be with folks and so I went. It was there I observed something different than before.

I had been to thousands of AA meeting when young. Sobriety never lasted. I always wondered about those members you would see there that had this strange smile all the time. Usually never said much... when they did, 1/2 the time it seemed like rambling. Most of them "Old timers." 30 years sobriety! I would consider my age, age 30 years - YES! I can do that and even better! But it didn't come to pass. Surely they have become some silly evangelical or something. I better stay away or they may try to convert me to some fundamentalist Christianity!

Well, I saw some of these types again this time. Something was different. I could see their enlightenment. No wonder the smile. No wonder they don't say much (unless one has the courage to speak with one privately with the desire to hear a deeper truth, one which an ego run riot does not want to hear). And then I observed "I" was one of them. I sat through the hour... didn't say a word... smiling the whole time.

I don't see myself going back anytime soon - but who knows.

Nothing external can serve as the sign of the sannyasi (Awakened One). He may roam throughout the world, he may hide himself in caves and jungles, and equally he may live in the midst of the multitude and even share in the world's work without losing his solitude.


...without losing his solitude... running into an occasional evamvid where we wink at each other with our knowing smiles.

Apparently alone yet never alone.

[Chester]

I woke up in the middle of the night last night.

As I came to consciousness, this strange sentence appeared.

"The absolute is the essence."

EDIT (2014-01-09) - when I awoke this morning, the "inner voice" suggested a tweaking of the above...

"The Absolute is the vital essence."

[Chester]

Though I have descended from the mountain top cave, Chester will never be the same. Thanks for your help in this regard, Tim and Chris.

[Chester]

This post is meant to honor tim, the creator and manager of this thread, for expressing his experience with these five states.

Thanks to tim's work here and comments on other threads and greybeard's work in the Transcending Ego thread as well as his posts on other threads (and the wonderful PMs I have exchanged with both tim and Chris), I was able to read through the following by Ken Wilber with understanding.

Forgive this cross post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?68591-Toward-a-Fourth-Turning-by-Ken-Wilber) - perhaps I should have just made this original post in this thread.

[greybeard]

The teacher and the taught are the same.
You have taught me much Chester and Tim's encouragement and advice exceptional and much appreciated by this self.
Aside from that, the external pushes and the internal pulls.
Once the head is in the tigers mouth---its a done deal.
Enlightenment inevitable
Chris

[Chester]

May the tiger keep chewing!

[Chester]

My son just shared with me a profound dream he had last night. I believe it belongs in this thread.

He dreamed that he was being chased by bad guys. They finally caught up with him and surrounded him. He observed his body motionless and it seemed like "my spirit was chilling above my body." (his words). He then watched the bad guys run off in chase of someone else.

Essentially in the dream, he was a human being and then he was the spirit that inhabited a now lifeless body. But who was observing the spirit??!!

I asked him that question and I could see him wince at the conundrum. He, like so many, believe we are individual spirit beings. At some level that may be true, but that is a level within form. He was able to experience having to ask himself, "Who is observing the Spirit being?"

In other words, "Who is behind the who who is behind the who?!"

Gotta love it

[powessy]

My son just shared with me a profound dream he had last night. I believe it belongs in this thread.

He dreamed that he was being chased by bad guys. They finally caught up with him and surrounded him. He observed his body motionless and it seemed like "my spirit was chilling above my body." (his words). He then watched the bad guys run off in chase of someone else.

Essentially in the dream, he was a human being and then he was the spirit that inhabited a now lifeless body. But who was observing the spirit??!!

I asked him that question and I could see him wince at the conundrum. He, like so many, believe we are individual spirit beings. At some level that may be true, but that is a level within form. He was able to experience having to ask himself, "Who is observing the Spirit being?"

In other words, "Who is behind the who who is behind the who?!"

Gotta love it

I may be able to shed a little light on your sons conundrum, perhaps a different interpretation. What if the primary soul one that is not of this world but from another was the primary observer. To explain, the energy of the body is of this world and it's energy is also of here, lets say this energy is that of the higher self or earth self. So now you have you then there is the higher self then the soul who is also connected. Not all have this arrangement for most are simply from earth and are only of earth self. The observing soul knows that birth removes previous memories of previous lives and experiences, but wishes to be connected to the experiences of life, gaining experiences and energy to prolong it's stay. Just a thought nothing more.

[Chester]

My son just shared with me a profound dream he had last night. I believe it belongs in this thread.

He dreamed that he was being chased by bad guys. They finally caught up with him and surrounded him. He observed his body motionless and it seemed like "my spirit was chilling above my body." (his words). He then watched the bad guys run off in chase of someone else.

Essentially in the dream, he was a human being and then he was the spirit that inhabited a now lifeless body. But who was observing the spirit??!!

I asked him that question and I could see him wince at the conundrum. He, like so many, believe we are individual spirit beings. At some level that may be true, but that is a level within form. He was able to experience having to ask himself, "Who is observing the Spirit being?"

In other words, "Who is behind the who who is behind the who?!"

Gotta love it

I may be able to shed a little light on your sons conundrum, perhaps a different interpretation. What if the primary soul one that is not of this world but from another was the primary observer. To explain, the energy of the body is of this world and it's energy is also of here, lets say this energy is that of the higher self or earth self. So now you have you then there is the higher self then the soul who is also connected. Not all have this arrangement for most are simply from earth and are only of earth self. The observing soul knows that birth removes previous memories of previous lives and experiences, but wishes to be connected to the experiences of life, gaining experiences and energy to prolong it's stay. Just a thought nothing more.

Within "the game" that could all be true! That's what makes the game fun to me.

Sadly... I am happy to have a foot in both worlds but I am probably not a good example for others. Enlightened and bored of boredom! Yuck!

[powessy]

Within "the game" that could all be true! That's what makes the game fun to me.

Sadly... I am happy to have a foot in both worlds but I am probably not a good example for others. Enlightened and bored of boredom! Yuck!

I hope one day soon the walls to the veil become a common place for all of us, a place to remember our origins and to learn the meaning of life. I hope when all is done, we will all find new meaning to this existence, and finding new meaning and purpose to our everyday actions will hopefully alleviate this boredom we all share together.

peace to you >-

[Truglivartna]

I guess "enlightenment" is a state of realization that differs from person to person. That state occurred slowly for me over a period of thirty years or more, and it is still occurring even at this moment. There was, however, a short period of time about 15 years ago (around age 63) when I found myself in heightened states of awareness that I can only describe as "turning my inner thoughts into poetry" as sentences began to develop a poetic rhythm and rhyme...something like this:


So Much For God Realization

It only lasts for a little while
and the curtain always falls
on the moment of the truth revealed
to the denizen of prison's walls,
so dense the mind…
so slow the Soul…
to respond to Spirit's calls.

How frail the tenuous hold on life
as the Life Force is withdrawn;
how dark the night as the trembling Soul
awaits elusive dawn and…
pleading…
answers to itself within
"Oh, yes… I'm here…
did you think that I had gone?"


The View From The Source

You have powers which I give you
as a demonstration of My Power.
You have wisdom only in so far
As I create it within you.
You have Freedom
only as you become more like Me.
and you become more like Me
only as I create you to be so.
Any realization short of this is separation
….but it is still Me.
Do not attempt to understand all the why’s
and the wherefores of what I do.
Remember: forever—or even tomorrow—
is too long to be doing the same thing.

[Shadowman]

The following pm and response is reproduced with the permission of EmEx;


Quote Posted by EmEx

Hi Tim,

How are things going with you?

Whenever I am about to go into the void I get scared and retreat back to human consciousness, I've had the opportunity several times
but I always get scared of annihilation/disappearing and go back to body consciousness. Is this normal,
do I just have to work on my fears until they are mostly gone and only then I am able to go into the void?

Regards, EmEx.


Hi EmEx,

All is well with me. Every day is a good day.

The I you refer to is the ego. The ego cannot free itself from itself. Ego identifies with the body/mind. Just stay with Pure Awareness, which neither gets scared, nor comes and goes anywhere, and you will realize you are the REAL, and not the unreal appearances, which includes the ego itself.

Synchronistically the following was read just last night and is directly relevant to your query;

"JUST BEFORE NINAKAWA PASSED AWAY THE ZEN MASTER IKKYU VISITED HIM. ”SHALL I
LEAD YOU ON?” IKKYU ASKED.

NINAKAWA REPLIED, ”I CAME HERE ALONE, AND I GO ALONE. WHAT HELP COULD YOU BE
TO ME?”

IKKYU ANSWERED, ”IF YOU THINK YOU REALLY COME AND GO, THAT IS YOUR DELUSION.
LET ME SHOW YOU THE PATH IN WHICH THERE IS NO COMING AND GOING.”
WITH HIS WORDS, IKKYU HAD REVEALED THE PATH SO CLEARLY THAT NINAKAWA SMILED
AND PASSED AWAY.

Death is the crescendo, the highest peak that life can attain. In the moment of death much is
possible. If you have been preparing and preparing, meditating and waiting, then at the moment
of death enlightenment is very easily possible – because death and enlightenment are similar. A
master, one who is enlightened, can easily make you enlightened at the moment of death. Even
before, whenever it happens, you have to be ready to die.

What happens in death? Suddenly you are losing your body, suddenly you are losing your mind.
Suddenly you feel you are going away from yourself – all that you believe to be yourself. It is painful,
because you feel you are going to be drowned into emptiness. You will be nowhere now, because
you were always identified with the body and the mind, and you never knew the beyond; you never
knew yourself beyond the body and the mind. You got so fixed and obsessed with the periphery that
the center was completely forgotten.

In death you have to encounter this fact: that the body is going, now it cannot be retained any more.
The mind is leaving you – now you are no more in control of the mind. The ego is dissolving – you
cannot even say ’I’. You tremble with fear, on the verge of nothingness. You will be no more.
But if you have been preparing, if you have been meditating – and preparation means if you have
been making all efforts to use death, to use this abyss of nothingness – rather than being pulled into
it you have been getting ready to jump into it, it makes a lot of difference. If you are being pulled into
it, grudgingly – you don’t want to go into it and you have been snatched – then it is painful. Much
anguish! And the anguish is so intense that you will become unconscious in the moment of death.
Then you miss.

But if you are ready to jump there is no anguish. If you accept and welcome it, and there is no
complaint – rather, you are happy and celebrating that the moment has come, and now I can jump
out of this body which is a limitation, can jump out of this body which is a confinement, can jump out
of this ego which has always been a suffering – if you can welcome, then there is no need to become
unconscious. If you can become accepting, welcoming – what Buddhists call tathata, to accept it,
and not only to accept, because the word accept is not very good, deep down some nonacceptance
is hidden in it – no, if you welcome, if it is such a celebration, an ecstasy, if it is a benediction, then
you need not become unconscious.

If it is a benediction, you will become perfectly conscious in that moment. Remember these two
things: if you reject, if you say no, you will become totally unconscious; if you accept, welcome, and
say yes with your full heart, you will become perfectly conscious. Yes to death makes you perfectly
conscious; no to death makes you perfectly unconscious – and these are the two ways of dying.
A Buddha dies totally accepting. There is no resistance, no fight between him and death. Death is
divine."

Kind Loving Regards,
tim

PS Quote is from "No Water, No Moon", by Osho.

[Truglivartna]

Beautifully put, Tim. Here's another view from the same mountain:


The Last AHA

The last Aha is when...
shortly after that moment of the final realization...
you hear...
faintly...
off in the distance...
Laughter.
And...
even more strangely...
it sounds like your own.

[sirdipswitch]

The View From The Source

You have powers which I give you
as a demonstration of My Power.
You have wisdom only in so far
As I create it within you.
You have Freedom
only as you become more like Me.
and you become more like Me
only as I create you to be so.
Any realization short of this is separation
….but it is still Me.
Do not attempt to understand all the why’s
and the wherefores of what I do.
Remember: forever—or even tomorrow—
is too long to be doing the same thing.



Perfect!!


Tim, You are correct in your last post to Em-Ex, but... we need not wait for death to... achieve...


Such confusion I read across this forum, and it's just as "Trug" says...

The Last AHA

The last Aha is when...
shortly after that moment of the final realization...
you hear...
faintly...
off in the distance...
Laughter.
And...
even more strangely...
it sounds like your own.



Yep!!! y'all are gonna look back one day and get a really good laugh...

No need to wait for death... to make the jump to "Light Speed". ccc.:wizard:

[Truglivartna]

My son just shared with me a profound dream he had last night. I believe it belongs in this thread.

He dreamed that he was being chased by bad guys. They finally caught up with him and surrounded him. He observed his body motionless and it seemed like "my spirit was chilling above my body." (his words). He then watched the bad guys run off in chase of someone else.

Essentially in the dream, he was a human being and then he was the spirit that inhabited a now lifeless body. But who was observing the spirit??!!

I asked him that question and I could see him wince at the conundrum. He, like so many, believe we are individual spirit beings. At some level that may be true, but that is a level within form. He was able to experience having to ask himself, "Who is observing the Spirit being?"

In other words, "Who is behind the who who is behind the who?!"

Gotta love itMaybe...just maybe.. he remembers the great Persian Poet, Rumi, who spoke similar words:


Who Says Words With My Mouth?

All day I think about it, then at night I say it.
Where did I come from,
and what am I supposed to be doing?
I have no idea.
My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that,
and I intend to end up there.

This drunkenness began in some other tavern.
When I get back around to that place,
I'll be completely sober.
Meanwhile, I'm like a bird from another continent,
sitting in this aviary.
The day is coming when I fly off,
but who is it now in my ear who hears my voice?
Who says words with my mouth?

Who looks out with my eyes?
What is the soul?
I cannot stop asking.
If I could taste one sip of an answer,
I could break out of this prison for drunks.
I didn't come here of my own accord,
and I can't leave that way.
Whoever brought me here...
...will have to take me home.

This poetry;
I never know what I'm going to say!
I don't plan it.
When I'm outside the saying of it,
I get very quiet...
...and rarely speak at all.
Mewlana Jalaluddin Rumi

From: The Essential Rumi
By Coleman Barks

[Grizz Griswold]

Dear Tim, I have spent the last several days reading this thread and I express my gratitude to you for it.
You have given your account of Enlightenment and answered questions from a point of truth that is easily
recognizable as truth. Your patience with those who would pick apart or antagonize can only come from a
place of not seeing your brothers as separate from yourself. You come bearing gifts and freely give them to all.

I have come to a point where I listen from my heart/intuition/god/source/all that is and some awakening has taken place.
Now if something happens that the ego would usually react to, now instead, I usually just let the ego take it's licks without defending.
Maybe there is a lack of discipline or vigilance for the kingdom of God because sometimes the ego still winds up kicking my
butt. When it gets kicked and I mean sometimes really hard, I just go back to my heart and from a place of love, I would remain.
Back and forth is not what I would choose and so I ask your advice?.....Namaste.....Grizz



"By their fruits ye shall know them, and they shall know themselves."

[Shadowman]

Beautifully put, Tim. Here's another view from the same mountain:


The Last AHA

The last Aha is when...
shortly after that moment of the final realization...
you hear...
faintly...
off in the distance...
Laughter.
And...
even more strangely...
it sounds like your own.

Hi Truglivartna,

Thankyou for sharing your views from the mountain peak, and I bid you a warm welcome to both this thread and Avalon. Your expressed insights clearly arise from a profound realization or satori.

It is fascinating the way in which such realization can express itself in everything from the poetic to the miraculous, from deeply profound wisdom to the most tender compassion, to even the most outrageous and highly intelligent humour. It's gifts are limitless and at times awe inspiring. Your contributions are deeply appreciated,

Yours Truly in Friendship,
tim

[Shadowman]

Dear Tim, I have spent the last several days reading this thread and I express my gratitude to you for it.
You have given your account of Enlightenment and answered questions from a point of truth that is easily
recognizable as truth. Your patience with those who would pick apart or antagonize can only come from a
place of not seeing your brothers as separate from yourself. You come bearing gifts and freely give them to all.

I have come to a point where I listen from my heart/intuition/god/source/all that is and some awakening has taken place.
Now if something happens that the ego would usually react to, now instead, I usually just let the ego take it's licks without defending.
Maybe there is a lack of discipline or vigilance for the kingdom of God because sometimes the ego still winds up kicking my
butt. When it gets kicked and I mean sometimes really hard, I just go back to my heart and from a place of love, I would remain.
Back and forth is not what I would choose and so I ask your advice?.....Namaste.....Grizz



"By their fruits ye shall know them, and they shall know themselves."


Hi Grizz,

What a great pleasure it is to welcome yet another advanced spiritual aspirant to both this thread and Avalon. By advanced I mean one whom has had a direct taste of awakening, rather than one who has simply acquired a wealth of relative knowledge (sometimes referred to as a pundit or "Sutra Priest"). This of course does not preclude the learned from realization, especially in the West, where relative knowledge is the modus operandi in learning.

It is in the nature of things that generally speaking the first episodes of awakening (or satori/kensho, or kundalini, or samadhi, etc) are brief, and while exceedingly profound compared to everyday life, are but a taste of that which deepens into complete awakening or Self Realization (Nirvana, Brahman, Daigo, Turiyatita, Tao, Heaven, etc). It can be difficult to relate to others on an egoic level during satori, or perform complex tasks. Which is why ashrams and monasteries provide suitable environments to nurture the state due to their simplified environments together with the availability of teachers whom have themselves been through the experience. Initially the state is also quite subtle and fragile, and can be lost in a number of ways ie engaging in consciousness/energy/frequency lowering behaviors such as imbibing alcohol, expressing negative emotional states like anger and hatred, or ejaculation.

Your divine progression Grizz is like the opposite to a catch 22. As you practice the attributes of absolute or pure awareness, you recognize more clearly the futility of the ego and the associated suffering it brings with it. Then, as you respond less from reaction and more from acceptance, you're more in alignment with what you are really, which brings greater peace, detachment and contentment. As with all progress however it can be a case of three steps forward, two steps back. The ingrained attachments and identifications acquired over lifetimes can be difficult to break...

"Just when I thought I was out....they pull me back in" - Michael Corleone, The Godfather Pt III

With persistent practice, and the deep understanding/realization that these attachments and identifications are just illusions, the unreal appearances will evanesce. The root cause is the mind. Therefore, instead of allowing the mind's attention to be placed on the outer senses, or to perpetuate itself through fantasies, memories, conceptualization and imagination; as these movements of mind are witnessed, bring the attention of the mind "inwards" to the source awareness in which all thoughts arise, and remain there.

When it gets kicked and I mean sometimes really hard, I just go back to my heart and from a place of love, I would remain

Perfect. You already understand experientially what I am advising. It is just a matter of consistency and earnest application, whenever the illusions of ego assert themselves. It is of course helpful to have a formal practice/sadhana, on a regular basis, in a quiet space, so that confidence in maintaining the witnessing state is initially achieved with few distractions. It's like learning to drive a car. At first it helps if you don't have the radio blasting and the kids arguing in the back. But eventually the skills you learn extend beyond your training period, such that your meditation/witnessing is 24/7. Once the witnessing state is constant, the final step happens of it's own accord. The perfect reflection of the source merges with the source, so to speak.

Here is a quote from p 33 of The Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi, which you may have already read but is well worth another look. I highly recommend two books for interested readers, the aforementioned and "I Am That" by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. If you are not living in a spiritual community it can be helpful to read/view inspiring teachers to maintain the motivation to practice your sadhana regularly;



M: The jiva itself is Siva; Siva Himself is the jiva. It is true
that the jiva is no other than Siva. When the grain is hidden
inside the husk, it is called paddy; when it is dehusked, it is
called rice. Similarly, so long as one is bound by karma one
remains a jiva; when the bond of ignorance is broken, one
shines as Siva, the Deity. Thus declares a scriptural text.

Accordingly, the jiva which is mind, is in reality the pure
Self; but, forgetting this truth, it imagines itself to be an
individual soul and gets bound in the shape of mind. So its
search for the Self, which is itself, is like the search for the
sheep by the shepherd. But still, the jiva which has forgotten
itself will not become the Self through mere mediate
knowledge. By the impediment caused by the residual
impressions gathered in previous births, the jiva forgets again
and again its identity with the Self and gets deceived,
identifying itself with the body, etc.

Will a person become a high officer by merely looking at him? Is it
not by steady effort in that direction that he could become a highly
placed officer?

Similarly, the jiva, which is in bondage through mental
identification with the body, etc., should put forth effort in
the form of reflection on the Self in a gradual and sustained
manner; and when thus the mind gets destroyed, the jiva would
become the Self.l4

The reflection on the Self which is thus practised constantly
will destroy the mind, and thereafter will destroy itself like
the stick that is used to kindle the cinders burning a corpse. It
is this state that is called release.


12 “Of all yogins, only he who rests his unwavering mind and love in me is dear
to me.” — Bhagavad Gita

13 “Of the means to release only bhakti (devotion) may be said to be the highest.
For, bhakti is constant reflection on one’s own Self.” — Vivekachudamani


If you have any further queries I would be only too happy to respond, either on this thread, or via pm. It is a pleasure to interact with one of such humility, good humour, kindness and an authentic desire for awakening,

With Love and Friendship,
tim

[KaiLee]

I do that thing too. Just short of releasing myself and freak out. The other day I did go beyond myself. And came crashing back quick smart. But it was a strange experience. At first I was lifting up, but as soon as I realised myself (3Dself) I began to fall. I had to accept the fall and I fell with the fall. No fear. As soon as I removed the fear I saw/experienced myself in topaz blue with stars. And, I was outstretched, reminding me later of crucifixtion. I then was here again. My body was full of sensation.

This was not an experience of I AM that I'd had years previously. It felt like a cleansing of some sort. Could it have been a kundalini experience? The colour made me consider that combined with the physical sensations I felt after it was over.

Edited to note the colour was actually cobolt blue.

[Grizz Griswold]

Thanks Tim, for this thread.

Hope many others use it and benefit from your insight.

In gratitude ....barry

[Shadowman]

I do that thing too. Just short of releasing myself and freak out. The other day I did go beyond myself. And came crashing back quick smart. But it was a strange experience. At first I was lifting up, but as soon as I realised myself (3Dself) I began to fall. I had to accept the fall and I fell with the fall. No fear. As soon as I removed the fear I saw/experienced myself in topaz blue with stars. And, I was outstretched, reminding me later of crucifixtion. I then was here again. My body was full of sensation.

This was not an experience of I AM that I'd had years previously. It felt like a cleansing of some sort. Could it have been a kundalini experience? The colour made me consider that combined with the physical sensations I felt after it was over.

Edited to note the colour was actually cobolt blue.

Hi Kailee,

Welcome to the thread and thanks for sharing. Excuse my tardy response.

The manifestations of mind vary from individual to individual.

Attempting to analyse or categorize them can be an endless loop.

The trick is to just remain with the I AM witness/ feeling/being you referred to

and treat all manifestations with equanimity,


In Lak'ech/With Love
tim

[Shadowman]

Thanks Tim, for this thread.

Hope many others use it and benefit from your insight.

In gratitude ....barry

Thanks Gribazz ;-)

It goes without saying you are most welcome.

Been away from the forum for a little while, looking forward to

catching up with your latest insights and posts,

With Love,
tim

[Meggings]

post removed with apologies

[Meggings]

ENLIGHTENMENT - "occurs in the light" (from A Course in Miracles)
This rings true. In looking for a place to post it for your consideration, I came here.

Miracles are seen in light. The body's eyes do not perceive the light. But I am not a body.

...light is crucial. While you remain in darkness, the miracle remains unseen. Thus you are convinced it is not there.
This follows from the premises from which the darkness comes. Denial of light leads to failure to perceive it.
Failure to perceive light is to perceive darkness.
The light is useless to you then, even though it is there.
You cannot use it because its presence is unknown to you.
And the seeming reality of the darkness makes the idea of light meaningless.
To be told that what you do not see is there sounds like insanity.

The miracle is always there.
Its presence is not caused by your vision; its absence is not the result of your failure to see.
It is only your awareness of miracles that is affected.
You will see them in the light; you will not see them in the dark.

[Guish]

What we see is a reflection of our thoughts. What do we see when we get beyond the thought process? Nothing. We see life as a drama with people playing roles they have learned. That's a crucial point because one is aware that it's a play while others take the play seriously. Careful because while watching the play, you may start acting again too.

[greybeard]

What we see is a reflection of our thoughts. What do we see when we get beyond the thought process? Nothing. We see life as a drama with people playing roles they have learned. That's a crucial point because one is aware that it's a play while others take the play seriously. Careful because while watching the play, you may start acting again too.

Yes very true Guish.
So easy to get drawn in.
That's our conditioning, that's what is expected of us.
Right action will happen if we step aside from the me.
"Of my self I do nothing"

Chris

[Meggings]

What we see is a reflection of our thoughts. What do we see when we get beyond the thought process? Nothing. We see life as a drama with people playing roles they have learned. That's a crucial point because one is aware that it's a play while others take the play seriously. Careful because while watching the play, you may start acting again too.

My experience differs, Guish. What I see is a reflection of my vibrational level, the frequency I am in, whether high or low. This vibrational set-point determines what I see and experience. My thought comes into the equation as it affects what vibration I am in, but my world does not reflect my thoughts. My world reflects my love. The level of LOVE (of frequency) I live within is the LIGHT THROUGH WHICH I SEE, and is what determines what my eyes see and my body encounters.

Experientially I have risen high in the vibratory condition of LOVE and have seen human beings disappear to my physical sight. I have seen other dimensional levels open up in front of me while walking to the barn to shovel manure. I have had visitors appear in my rooms from higher dimensions because of the vibrational state I am in, not from my thoughts. These are the small "miracles" that living in light confers. When in that state, thought arose and action was taken, determined by love and not by thought.

Bear with me as I examine what feels like "cognitive dissonance" within me over thoughts. Thinking is a tool, it is not the enemy. Ego can be construed as "enemy" which also uses the tool of thought. I understand that there is beneficial ego and harmful ego.

You issue a caveat to take care, else you may start acting again. But Life acts through us; we are designed to act; we learn and expand and help and grow through acting. Why would one take care NOT to act? Why would one seek to not think? Better by far would be to WITNESS the thoughts, the thinking. This leads to clear seeing that they are tools, they have use, they are not to be abandoned. How could enlightened beings speak if they were not using the tool of thought to form words. to conceive actions? I find the witness state comes easier as I reach higher up towards the Love frequency.

This is not my experience: "What do we see when we get beyond the thought process? Nothing." I travel through the black ethers and see a great deal of life when my personality is awake and aware of these travels, yet apparently is having "no thought" even though I often speak physically audible words as I watch this or that interesting thing. I have visited our Sun, and Uranus, and various other objects in our solar system when not "thinking", but I have come to the certainty that there is a higher part of me that thinks and wills these travels.

Once I heard the higher travelling part of me ask an unseen companion to show me "The Divine Blueprint" I had often wondered about. And I was taken there to behold a vast living mandala of light pathways, on which larger and lessor lights moves at different speeds along some of the light pathways. THOUGHT took me there. Once I asked another unseen companion what these beautiful colours were that were pressing up against my etheric body. The thought came back, "Angels". Thought exists in higher realms beyond 3D earth. And what we see when our personality is having "no thought" is not "nothing".

Forgive me for rambling. I am close on to vomiting, as most in this household have already done so - a bug came through visiting friends on the weekend. My thinking may not be clear enough to warrant a response on this post, but with cat on my lap and sick people in most beds, I am rather tied to my computer chair at the moment. Apologies if I have been in any way incoherent here.

One last point - I love stories. Always thought it was because God loves stories or he would not have designed us and the universes as they are - designed so that stories can unfold that expand us, that strengthen us, that teach us. I see no need to invalidate thoughts or dramas, for I see them as tools. When we touch on the Witness state, it can all be rather enjoyable. I have never understood those who eschew being physical human beings, who eschew the tools we are given to think and act and feel.

[Guish]

Hi,

Any experience that occurs after the no-thought moment comes from the soul. When I say nothing, it means nothing to the conceptual mind. Nothing is everything. In the nothing is love, compassion, detachment and an infinite number of characteristics. In my experience, I don't think about love or compassion. It happens on its own. All spiritual experiences comes when one is beyond mind and body. Words can't really describe the moment. Haha.