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Lettherebelight
15th May 2012, 06:47
Can't say we all didn't see this coming, but here it is.

Economic wind down has officially begun in Europe. Expect events to unravel rather quickly.

Here's the Guardian report, but you can go anywhere (MSN) to watch the show.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/14/euro-single-currency-greece


European leaders and financial markets braced for Greece exit from euro
Return to drachma nears amid political impasse in Athens and open discussion in Brussels of possible end of single currency
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Larry Elliott and Ian Traynor in Brussels
The Guardian, Tuesday 15 May 2012

The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said that Greece would 'always' be in the EU, a statement interpreted as meaning it might not always be in the euro. Photograph: John Macdougall/AFP/Getty Images
Financial markets are hastily making preparations for a Greek exit from the euro after a day of political and economic turmoil ended with Europe's policy elite admitting for the first time that it may prove impossible to keep the single currency intact.

With attempts in Athens to form a government after last week's election looking increasingly doomed, European leaders abandoned their taboo on talking about the possibility that Greece might have to leave the euro.

Shares, oil, and the euro were all sold heavily on Monday in anticipation that anti-austerity parties would garner support in a second Greek election likely to be held next month, bringing the row between Greece and its European creditors to a climax.

Critical talks are scheduled to continue in Athens between all party leaders, although President Karolos Papoulias's decision to prolong the negotiations came despite widespread signs the talks were heading towards collapse. He has until Thursday, when the Greek parliament reconvenes, to broker a deal.

The British chancellor, George Osborne warned that the prospect of Greece crashing out of the euro was damaging economies across Europe.

Uncertainty over the future of struggling eurozone nations was having a "real impact" on growth, he said.

Speaking in Brussels, where he is attending talks over the crisis, Osborne criticised the "open speculation" by some eurozone members.

"The eurozone crisis is very serious and it's having a real impact on economic growth across the European continent, including in Britain, and it's the uncertainty that's causing the damage," he said.

"Of course countries have got to make difficult decisions about their public finances. We know that in Britain.

"But it's the open speculation from some members of the eurozone about the future of some countries in the eurozone which I think is doing real damage across the whole European economy."

Amid claims in the markets that politicians in Athens were playing a dangerous game of bluff, a potential schism in the monetary union saw borrowing costs for Spain and Italy rise over fears that contagion could spread from Greece through southern Europe. The City's FTSE 100 Index lost almost 2% of its value, dropping more than 100 points, and there were big falls in share prices in Paris, Frankfurt, Madrid and Athens.

Chris Towner, director of FX advisory services at currency traders HiFX, said: "The Greeks seem to be playing a game of chicken here, first of all putting party politics above sovereign interests and secondly in the bigger picture questioning whether the European Central Bank are bluffing when it comes to not offering them bailout money if they fail to form a government."

On Monday night city firms were making sure their computer-trading systems could cope with the return of the drachma, and were predicting that a "grey market" in a new Greek currency could be operating within the next few days.

But despite the market turmoil and the anti-austerity mood reflected in the elections in Greece and France, finance ministers meeting in Brussels insisted there could be no softening of the tough conditions that Athens agreed to last year in return for a $130bn rescue package financed by the EU and the IMF. The talks openly discussed the likelihood of Greece quitting or being kicked out of the euro, while also differing over whether Greece would also need to leave the EU.

Maria Fekter, the gaffe-prone Austrian finance minister, said there was no basis in EU law for a country leaving the single currency, but noted that the Lisbon Treaty included provision for a country departing from the EU.

Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany, by contrast, stressed that Greece would "always" be in the EU, a statement interpreted as meaning it might not always be in the euro.

Following suggestions from Jean-Claude Juncker, the Luxembourg prime minister and eurogroup chairman, that Greece's debt reduction timetable should be relaxed, the Germans made clear that no such loosening could be permitted.

With central bankers across the eurozone openly discussing the pros and cons of a Greek departure, it appeared that the terms of the debate had shifted towards accepting the inevitability of a Greek exit. Talk of the impact of a return to the drachma was predominant, split between those who believed the fallout from an outright Greek default could be contained and those who thought that the knock-on effect, particularly in Spain, would shift the euro crisis into an entirely new dimension.

"The contagion risk would be far, far smaller than one and a half years ago," said the Dutch finance minister, Jan Kees de Jager, of the effect of a Greek exit. Others predicted the result would be "catastrophe".

The debate focused on the financial and banking impact of a country leaving the single currency, with little emphasis being given to the political, social, security or foreign policy implications.

The European Commission said: "We want Greece to stay in the euro." But it emphasised that Athens could only accomplish that by living up to the terms of the bailout bargain with the eurozone.

Markets are braced for figures due out on Tuesday to show that the eurozone is officially in a double dip recession, and fear that the events of the past few days will intensify the slump.

On Monday investors were seeking out safe havens, including German bonds and the pound, as they sold eurozone assets. The boss of PKO Bank Polski predicted that Europe was hurtling towards its Lehman moment, with Portugal, Spain, and Italy being dragged into the slipstream of a Greek exit.

Stephen Lewis, economist at Monument Securities, said: "It may well be that eurozone leaders would raise the threat of Greece being obliged to leave the eurozone if it fails to comply with bailout terms, so as to sway Greek voters to support pro-bailout parties. But if this threat were to be credible, the EU would have to start elaborating measures to facilitate Greece's departure from the eurozone well before the election took place. Otherwise, Greek voters would assume eurozone leaders were bluffing."

Article history
Business
Eurozone crisis · European monetary union · Economics · Euro
World news
Greece · Europe · European Union · Germany
More news
More on this story

Greece to hold more coalition talks
President to meet all party leaders as political uncertainty sends markets plunging amid fears of possible eurozone exit
Eurozone crisis - Monday 14 May
François Hollande faces a baptism of fire in Berlin
EU leaders set for showdown on fate of euro as crisis deepens
How Greece could leave the eurozone – in five difficult steps
Angela Merkel dealt further blow by German voters
Comment and analysis

Greece should follow Argentina's lead
Larry Elliott: As Argentina's experience after 2002 shows, when an economic crisis hits it is often best to go it alone
Is the single currency worth saving at all?
Greece would face dire consequences from a euro exit – as its people know
We agree about Europe
Is a Greek exit from the euro inevitable?
Related
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13 May 2012
Greece would face dire consequences from a euro exit – as its people know
17 Feb 2012
Greek fears grow beneath looming shadow of bankruptcy
29 Jan 2012
Eurozone crisis: angry Greeks condemn EU plot to control its finances
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Lettherebelight
15th May 2012, 16:35
Update...here we go from bad to worse.

Do not underestimate this controlled chaos.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/15/greece-elections-coalition-talks-collapse

One thing is sure to lead to another...

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/bro/lowres/bron2584l.jpg

Lettherebelight
15th May 2012, 16:46
Hmmmm, now why would they want to sink the Euro?

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQg6AWYjtBkwWhrm5uXNt3mol37NoWOFnB3bfAa35_kKR0XwGVx

Here's a link to today's Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2144467/Euro-crisis-Last-roll-dice-gathering-storm-terrify-all.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2144467/Euro-crisis-Last-roll-dice-gathering-storm-terrify-all.html

Lettherebelight
15th May 2012, 18:15
Perhaps this is more appropriate..

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mtu/lowres/mtun589l.jpg

nearing
15th May 2012, 18:35
For this of us who are financially illiterate, what will this mean for the world economy? (I can surmise what it means for Greece.)

conk
15th May 2012, 18:49
For this of us who are financially illiterate, what will this mean for the world economy? (I can surmise what it means for Greece.)The collapse of the EU and the Euro will have devastating consequences for us in the USA and for the rest of the world. The world economy is inextricably webbed, so what infects the hand infects the foot. It is the beginning of a horrific time in world history. Some maintain it is the end of the civilized world. Imagine a total collapse of the money system and then imagine that world leaders seem to have no interest in curtailing their egregious criminal activity, nor implementing change to forestall the event. You'd damnned well better have a second bedroom full of food storage and life essentials. I do not believe this is an over statement or fear mongering. The system simply cannot survive as is. It is the ultimate Ponzi scheme. The dominoes have begun to fall and they are all very close to each other. May Mother God in the heavens bless us and protect us.

nearing
15th May 2012, 18:53
For this of us who are financially illiterate, what will this mean for the world economy? (I can surmise what it means for Greece.)The collapse of the EU and the Euro will have devastating consequences for us in the USA and for the rest of the world. The world economy is inextricably webbed, so what infects the hand infects the foot. It is the beginning of a horrific time in world history. Some maintain it is the end of the civilized world. Imagine a total collapse of the money system and then imagine that world leaders seem to have no interest in curtailing their egregious criminal activity, nor implementing change to forestall the event. You'd damnned well better have a second bedroom full of food storage and life essentials. I do not believe this is an over statement or fear mongering. The system simply cannot survive as is. It is the ultimate Ponzi scheme. The dominoes have begun to fall and they are all very close to each other. May Mother God in the heavens bless us and protect us.

When Iceland went on their own, it didn't have much effect on the rest of us, right? Is it because Greece is a bigger economic holder that it will?

Molope
15th May 2012, 18:57
Well not only Greece but Spain Portugal and Ireland are also on the risk zone.

conk
15th May 2012, 19:22
It's not Greece. Greece is just a symtom of the larger disease. Greece and other countries are the first manifestation of the much larger problem. As Molope said, it's Spain, Portugal, Italy and others. Then the rest of the world. Ironic, people who live in Africa, isolated indigenous cultures, etc. may not even realize what's going on, as they live in accordance with Mother Nature and don't subscribe to the evils of consumerism.

nearing
15th May 2012, 20:39
I know our system is just a long running Ponzi scheme. But it has been chugging toward the cliff for a very long time. Do we think that this event places our toes over the edge?

Lettherebelight
15th May 2012, 20:41
It may appear like a chaotic free fall to us, but things are being carefully manipulated.

At the risk of posting this in the wrong sub forum, I offer Svali's testimony from some years back.

"Want to hear the end of the world scenario the Illuminati taught me? It was cult propaganda, but this is how they believed the New Order would be ushered in: There will be continued conflict in the mideast, with a severe threat of nuclear war being the culmination of these hostilities. An economic collapse that will devastate the economy of the US and Europe, much like the Great Depression.

One reason that our economy continues limping along is the artificial supports that the Federal Reserve had given it, manipulating interest rates, etc. But one day, this won’t work (or this leverage will be withdrawn on purpose) and the next Great Depression will hit. The government will call in its bonds and loans, and credit card debts will be called in. There will be massive bankruptcies nationwide. Europe will stabilize first, and Germany, France and England (surprise) will have the strongest economies, and will institute through the UN an international currency. Japan will also pull out, although their economy will be weakened.

Peacekeeping forces will be sent out by the UN and local bases to prevent riots. The leaders will reveal themselves, and people will be asked to make a pledge of loyalty during a time of chaos and financial devastation.

Doesn’t sound pleasant, does it? I don’t know the exact time frame for all of this, and wouldn’t want to even guess. The good news is that if a person is debt-free, owes nothing to the government or credit debt, and can live self sufficiently, they may do better than other. I would invest in gold, not stocks, if I had the income. Gold will once again be the world standard, and dollars will be pretty useless (remember after the Civil War? Our money will be worth about what confederate money was after the collapse).

All this said, it could just be cult propaganda taught to me and others to frighten us. It may be that none of this will happen. I sincerely hope not. I also strongly believe that God is able to stay the hand of the wicked, and to take care of our nation and others, if we turn to Him."

Full article from 2008: http://svalispeaks.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/part-13-the-un-or-supreme-world-council/
http://svalispeaks.com/ (Something's up with the Wordpress link)

Rocky_Shorz
15th May 2012, 20:57
Soros Group just bought stakes in JP Morgan, Goldman...

ThePythonicCow
15th May 2012, 21:11
Soros Group just bought stakes in JP Morgan, Goldman...

The better to short them later ?

Rocky_Shorz
15th May 2012, 21:21
he's turning them back from the fall at this point, could be for leverage...

$12B in losses when holding $200T in derivatives are nothing unless it is exposed...

ThePythonicCow
15th May 2012, 21:37
he's turning them back from the fall at this point, could be for leverage...

$12B in losses when holding $200T in derivatives are nothing unless it is exposed...

This reminds me a little of Warren Buffett investing $5-billion in Goldman Sachs in September 2008 (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2008/09/warren-buffett.html), a couple of months before Goldman hit bottom in the November crash.

The big boys make public moves one way, while setting up for a bigger move they will help provoke, the other way.

Rocky_Shorz
15th May 2012, 21:47
well the "Cynic" Chanos bankrolling Chinese investments sold stakes as Soros was buying in...

Chanos is the Greek Short King...

the ones he was selling Soros didn't buy was Citi and B of A...

Rocky_Shorz
15th May 2012, 21:52
he's turning them back from the fall at this point, could be for leverage...

$12B in losses when holding $200T in derivatives are nothing unless it is exposed...

This reminds me a little of Warren Buffett investing $5-billion in Goldman Sachs in September 2008 (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2008/09/warren-buffett.html), a couple of months before Goldman hit bottom in the November crash.

The big boys make public moves one way, while setting up for a bigger move they will help provoke, the other way.

they buy in with a quarter of what they are willing to spend, as it tanks they keep increasing the holdings without the public attention of the first buy-in...

nearing
15th May 2012, 23:40
All you guy's language sounds lIke you are talking about someone betting in poker.

Yep.

Lettherebelight
15th May 2012, 23:48
I know our system is just a long running Ponzi scheme. But it has been chugging toward the cliff for a very long time. Do we think that this event places our toes over the edge?

Good question, friend. We shall see as things unfold over the next few days...we won't have long to wait.

This may answer a few questions, from the Telegraph, our most conservative paper:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9268040/Eurozone-debt-crisis-how-a-Greek-exit-from-the-euro-might-unfold.html



 

conk
16th May 2012, 23:48
Soros Group just bought stakes in JP Morgan, Goldman...This may mean that these two banks will prevail after the next big crash. Other banks will be sacrificed and sold to Morgan and GS for pennies on the dollar. They'll dig out something rotten and blame the banks that get gobbled up so they'll fail and lose stock value. Soon everyone will bow down in allegiance to the mighty Goldman Sachs Bank of the World.

WhiteFeather
17th May 2012, 00:01
It's a Horse-Sh!t, Three Ring, Circus Sideshow.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgbEYSbyepM

Lost Soul
17th May 2012, 11:06
Soros Group just bought stakes in JP Morgan, Goldman...

The better to short them later ?

Negative short sale them to drive them down - just like they do unto others.

mgray
18th May 2012, 11:20
It would not surprise me that within the next 3 months or so as Greece and possible Spain, Ireland and Italy begin repudiating their debt that the European central banks start issuing euros with country of origin on them.
These euros will trade at a different swap rate then others. It defeats the purpose of a unified currency, but keeps EU countries from breaking ties in short term.

intruth
18th May 2012, 16:48
The end of the USD is near also.

Does anyone know any last minute moves of 401k funds for safety besides Gold/silver?

Help! :confused::confused:

conk
18th May 2012, 17:07
The end of the USD is near also.

Does anyone know any last minute moves of 401k funds for safety besides Gold/silver?

Help! :confused::confused:You can invest in land, but you just can't live on it or use it until you take it out of the plan.

Earth Angel
18th May 2012, 17:25
I just started a thread, probably should just have posted it here..........a small town in Ireland is now accepting the pound.......there is 285 million in Irish pounds still floating around,......this was started by a 21 year old who's father owns a shop in town.......they estimated they received 1000 pounds and more traffic in the store than they would have otherwise.......maybe this is the beginning of something new

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?45316-Irish-town-to-bring-back-the-POUND

Lettherebelight
18th May 2012, 17:33
I say, good for the Irish. I understand many there are waking up to the fact that the Euro has done them absolutely no favours. Next time they vote, things may come out differently for them...fingers crossed.

intruth
18th May 2012, 17:46
Conk,
Yes land would have been wise. My husband does not want to wake up. I've tried. I've gotten him to read about 9/11 so he's on board with that and some other stuff.
He feels the market is likely to crash but that it will recover and he gets plenty of comfort from our broker. I keep telling him we are in truly unprecedented times. I took my 401k $ out of mutual funds and my broker said to put it in an ultra conservative bond fund vs just a money market. Aren't both of these going to be doomed? I did manage to invest in a little silver with a very small inheritance.

I think with what David Wilcock published about the huge amount of gold undisclosed that gold poses some risk. Drake eluded to this in his radio broadcast from Wed? this week. He said to buy silver.

Lettherebelight
18th May 2012, 18:42
Karl Denninger, from the Market Ticker Forum, not afraid to call a spade 'a spade' says,


Posted 2012-05-18 10:05
by Karl Denninger
in International
Trichet Declares War
 
This is an open declaration of war folks:

Europe could strengthen its monetary union by giving European politicians the power to declare a sovereign state bankrupt and take over its fiscal policy, the former head of the European Central Bank said on Thursday in unveiling a bold proposal to salvage the euro. 

That's an open declaration of war and should be responded to in kind.

There is no power superior to that of the budget within a nation.  None.

If other nations and firms don't like a government's expression of their sovereign power in the form of their budget they have the right to refuse to lend to it.  But there is no claim one can make on a sovereign's budget on a forcible basis -- that is functionally identical to an invasion.

Trichet has just invited a shooting war in Europe, and I predict that if this sort of meme spreads he's going to get exactly that.

View this entry with comments (registration required to post)
 
http://market-ticker.org/

Rocky_Shorz
20th May 2012, 19:04
The end of the USD is near also.

Does anyone know any last minute moves of 401k funds for safety besides Gold/silver?

Help! :confused::confused:

buy pennies...

if the dollar tanks and SHTF you can melt them down to make coils to produce energy...

most homes have a wind generator, you only need fan blades attached to a garbage disposal to charge DC Batteries...

mobile home batteries are great for deep cycle...

that's your apocalypse hints for today... ;)

The Truth Is In There
21st May 2012, 09:25
Conk,
Yes land would have been wise. My husband does not want to wake up. I've tried. I've gotten him to read about 9/11 so he's on board with that and some other stuff.
He feels the market is likely to crash but that it will recover and he gets plenty of comfort from our broker. I keep telling him we are in truly unprecedented times. I took my 401k $ out of mutual funds and my broker said to put it in an ultra conservative bond fund vs just a money market. Aren't both of these going to be doomed? I did manage to invest in a little silver with a very small inheritance.

I think with what David Wilcock published about the huge amount of gold undisclosed that gold poses some risk. Drake eluded to this in his radio broadcast from Wed? this week. He said to buy silver.

with that much money i'd buy a farm and land in a safe and remote area with very few or no people around and become completely self-sustained. the less visible you are the better. the whole economy will go down the drain and it won't recover for years or longer. by then many who were not prepared for it will be dead. paper money or numbers printed on paper will become worthless. when that happens most people will become desperate and desperate people to funny things to each other. unless you already live in a one-for-all-and-all-for-one community i suggest you use the cash to go off the grid while you still can, ideally in a reasonably safe zone in the southern hemisphere far away from fukushima or any other nuclear power plants.

danceblackcatdance
21st May 2012, 10:02
I think with what David Wilcock published about the huge amount of gold undisclosed that gold poses some risk. Drake eluded to this in his radio broadcast from Wed? this week. He said to buy silver.

retail are currently 80% long on gold.. if DW is right about the gold it would also explain why the price has been tanking...

i don't think the $ is going to collapse right now, maybe after the euro...

but hey who knows for sure eh

:)