Excavating The Empty Tomb - The Gospels based on Homer's Odyssey? [Archive]

sigma6

27th May 2012, 02:42

Update: this guy who made this is under attack (Truthsurge on youtube)
If you can support him in any way please do, I can't find an original full length so this is just part one.... on the internet although I downloaded a copy for my library... but can't upload large files, if anyone finds a full length please let me know, or if you can upload large files pm me... thanks... I can only put 9 videos in one message support truthsurge by watching and sharing these videos...

new update: It is now just called Excavating The Empty Tomb,
it looks like he has managed to rebuild his Youtube presence AND
He now has 37 additions (looks to be completed now...)

Excavating The Empty Tomb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jOzCMy9e5E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msZ5X3uyeeA&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YZ_aWPswkk&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq51uHhbF90&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTJT67kgsfc&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy-4iS1qfRo&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJAcX_K5YA4&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhKhpFppI8&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuNw5cvAldc&feature=relmfu

Update: I can't find an original full length so this is just part one.... on the internet although I downloaded a copy for my library... but can't upload large files, if anyone finds a full length please let me know, or if you can upload large files pm me... thanks...

This has totally blown me away... The Biblical book of Mark of the New Testament, which was written and tapped as a reference and source for the books, Matthew, Luke and John, (the first four books and cornerstone of the New Testament) has been found to have a literary pattern that resembles the story of 'Homer's Odyssey' in unmistakable detail. If the quotes and references are accurate, true and verifiable, and there doesn't seem to be any reason that they aren't. Then this critique is a real game changer.

The premise is straight forward, a simple comparison between two sources of 'literature'. The thing that makes this powerful is how they focus on the original Texts and show that at around 400 AD, (the earliest known complete records? although I am now getting the oldest is more accurately 280 AD?) a critical portion of the Book of Mark was 'padded' with new verses, which created two divergent versions of the Bible, (the 'padded' version being the one in use today!)

A good source of reference or follow up is Dr Bart Ehrman - 'Does Bible Misquote Jesus' who is referenced in the above (will update with reference) As he made another clear argument. That is, that there are in fact no original copies of the Biblical gospels, which is why the above is quoting documents from 400 AD. (again that looks to be more like 280 AD for another partial version...

IMO it is a clear explanation how the Hand of the Roman Vatican has been working the same agenda as when they were a world military power. It adds another piece to the historical mist of the past. Truly we live in the age of revelation. Revelation of what that could be is another question. This doesn't make me any less spiritual btw, it opens up a broader avenue, makes me want to learn what really happened.

Fundy Gemini

27th May 2012, 14:24

sigma6

27th May 2012, 17:16

Fantastic piece of work, thanks so much for sharing it.

I believe this is an ongoing project since I went to the source and could get as far as 14b but no further - I will continue to look around, but if you happen to know where the final chapters are (if already completed) please let us know. Thanks! :-)

When I downloaded it, it only went to 11 B, and was 2 and half hours, so I maybe it is an ongoing production... but that in itself was still loads of information... also the introduction says he had to mirror it to another account or something, will have to go back to channel to review it again.

update:
Reply to your comment on: (Mirror) Excavating the Empty Tomb - by truthsurge (parts 1-12)
This was posted to this channel during the brief suspension of the author - truthsurge. you can find the rest on their channel

update: going back again, I noted the long version was messed and went from 9 to 12 then back to 10 and 11 (confusing) so it may have been taken down because of that... in any event, the individual videos are easy to watch and download if you wish,

panopticon

28th May 2012, 03:06

G'day Sigma6,

I haven't watched the documentary yet (will take a few days to get the time) but thought I'd share a few links to what seem like relevant sources you and others might find interesting (though not directly related to Ulysses).

'Mythic Heroes (http://homepage.mac.com/lpetrich/www/writings/Mythic_Hero.html)' (based on the 1936 work 'The Hero' by Lord Raglan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FitzRoy_Somerset,_4th_Baron_Raglan)) which very briefly explains the 'Jesus as a Mythic Hero' hypothesis and compares some real people versus mythic heroes (using a numeric scale based on Raglan's list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FitzRoy_Somerset,_4th_Baron_Raglan#The_Hero), Alan Dundes work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dundes) and one the author created).

'Life events shared by Yeshua (Jesus) and the "Mythic Hero Archetype" (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa4.htm)', as the title suggests, is another short comparison of the biblical Jesus versus the Mythic Hero.

'Christ a Fiction (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/fiction.html)' is a short paper by theologian Dr. Price (of the Bible Geek Podcast (http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/biblegeek.php)) on the Mythic Hero archetype and the Mythic Jesus hypothesis in which he states:

I used to think, when I myself was a Christian apologist, a defender of the evangelical faith, that I had done a pretty respectable job of vindicating that story as history. I brought to bear a variety of arguments I now recognize to be fallacious, such as the supposed closeness of the gospels to the events they record, their ostensibly use of eyewitness testimony, etc. Now, in retrospect, I judge that my efforts were about as effective in the end as Superboy's! When all is said and done, he remains a fiction.

'The Hero Pattern (http://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/Clas230/MythDocuments/HeroPattern/default.htm)' again another analysis of Raglan's numeric scale giving these results:

Mithradates VI of Pontus (22) / Krishna (21) / Moses (20) / Romulus (19) / King Arthur (19) / Perseus (18) / Jesus (18) / Watu Gunung of Java (18) / Heracles (17) Mohammad (17) / Beowulf (15) / Buddha (15) / Czar Nicholas II (14) / Zeus (14) / Nyikang, a cult-hero of the Shiluk tribe of the Upper Nile (14) / Samson (13) / Sunjata, the Lion-King of Ancient Mali (11) / Achilles (10) / Odysseus (8) / Harry Potter (8)

Finally here's a short article (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/religion/blgrk_heroes04.htm) about some similarities between the Jesus and the Odysseus/Ulysses stories and how there was probably cross fertilisation in the period following the sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70)) (70 CE) by the Roman's in retaliation for the Jewish revolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War).

Personally I believe that the destruction of the second temple led to the need for an explanation and a heroic figure was created as a means of explaining what had happened. My reason is that the gospels can be dated to either after the fall of Jerusalem, or just before it (many think Mark was written during the revolt just prior to the fall), and when placed into an historical context it seems pretty clear to me that the Mythic Jesus figure described in the NT was a fabrication to buoy the spirits of a crushed peoples (and associated sects). Then, much as now, Jesus was expected at any moment to come flying out of the clouds (or something similar) to save his chosen peoples. This "imminent salvation" sect can even be found alluded to (though not directly stated) in some of Paul's letters when he writes about the dangers of following beliefs in Jesus different to those of he and his followers.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

cloud9

28th May 2012, 04:24

Very good indeed, I learned a few things I didn't know before.

sigma6

28th May 2012, 06:29

Panoptican - yes he feels the book of Mark was written 72 AD, which would be just after the fall of Jerusalem, and the authorship of the first four books is actually unknown (not exactly an ideal bedrock of faith). What a diving off point I imagine this sort of information can be for many serious minded people, although on the other side is that it opens up a wide swath of opportunity for empirical investigation into other areas of philosophical thought. The big questions still remain, why are we here? Is it cruel and usual for man to die so early when it takes so long to gain the spiritual and intellectual insight needed to really appreciate life? etc.

Personally I am very attracted to Lloyd Pye's interpretation of us being 'spliced' from hominoids, the original bi-pedal species 'found' on this planet, which is why Big foots are a taboo subject. Like all truths, it is stepping on the territory of 'Secret Knowledge' I believe is being kept away from the masses by 'Secret Societies'. Man is just too 'artificial' to have 'evolved naturally'. And Evolution is a farce of misinformation, and once recognized as such exposes an agenda, and a question, being 'what are they so desperately hiding? that they would try to force evolution down our throats in the first place? And Lloyd's interpretation is to me is exactly the kind of thing they would like to hide. I don't think anyone deconstructs evolution as well as he does.

I wish Lloyd would get back to further detailed studies and interpretations of that relationship between man, big foots, neanderthals, the fusion of the 2nd and 3rd genes, debunking evolution, and alien intervention research instead of that damned alien skull he keeps monkeying around with (no pun intended!)

ie. If he did more presentations explaining in greater detail the logic and reasoning of his science, people would 'get it more' and they would actually buy MORE of his books, to keep as the source of 'legal/scientific record of proof' to make reference back to... That's what he doesn't get... His arguments are brilliant and devastating to the scientific community, but he doesn't get that although people can get the gist, they can't absorb that much information in just 1 or 2 hours...

update:
If he just made this one small adjustment... he would educate more and more people, and he could have a series of lectures that expands on each major idea, and end up selling 10 times more books as a result... people would love to have these ideas and arguments soundly in their minds, able to argue them, but the two videos he's got on line are really grainy and go through a lot of info too briefly/quickly imo... I know every time I try to articulate his ideas I just get bogged down, and missing the details references, etc...

panopticon

28th May 2012, 07:34

G'day Sigma6,

A while ago Observer posted an excellent video of an Ehrman lecture (based on his book 'Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why' (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=sxNgpHuQdf4C&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false)) that you and others might be interested in:

O-1hdqNDQ9E

I agree that we have no idea who wrote what and when. Dogma and tradition dictate present understanding and they are directly attached to, and reinforced by, money, control and power
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

observer

28th May 2012, 12:47

Excellent video, sigma6.

Many researchers are looking into the possibility that the Bible was written as an agenda to project the Roman Empire into the 21 Century in the guise of the Holy Roman Empire (Catholicism). To this conclusion I offer links to a better understanding:

Who wrote the Bible?

This is a long study, but for those who are serious about the research, here are some links that are very informative:

Begin here (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biggestsecret/biggestsecretbook/biggestsecret05.htm), with an understanding of who the Piso were.

For a broader understanding of who the Piso were, see here (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_piso.htm). Follow the links provided.

For a break-down of who wrote the individual books of the New Testament, see here. (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_piso01.htm)

For more in depth on Josephus, see here (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_piso04.htm).

This entire Piso story is very compelling, especially seeing how it seamlessly dovetails into our current global circumstances.

sigma6

28th May 2012, 16:17

I just can't resist, I have to add these because they are so overwhelmingly profound and I think they are relevant to this line of inquiry. People are way too politically correct when dealing with the propaganda going on in Universities today. It's a mockery of science, an undermining of critical scientific endeavour, drowning in corporate politics, compartmentalization, funding manipulation, falsified statistics, and just plain hiding thousands of artifacts from the public, etc, etc, ad nauseum... or as Cremo calls it "knowledge filtration" (LOL) precisely aimed at undermining dedicated and principled researchers, who have invested their lives trying to bring truth to the world, people like Lloyd Pye, Klaus Dona, Michael Cremo, Richard Thompson, Richard Milton ...

l4TKCNKaJPQ

pe6DN1OoxjE

iH1pEtmdGtQ

tdciYA0ydMw

3WHtZ5Dp-Vg

http://www.4shared.com/folder/C9lgi54q/Mysterious_Origins.html (be patient with this link, it's a free 4shared account = super crappy bandwidth)

RedeZra

28th May 2012, 19:05

heyokah

28th May 2012, 19:51

cloud9

28th May 2012, 19:53

sigma6

28th May 2012, 20:37

the controllers debunked God a long time ago
and replaced the Bible with the theory of evolution
now the controllers are trying to sell us the idea
that humanity is genetically engineered by aliens
so why bother debunking the Bible
when the PTB has already done it

If you check out observer's post, they didn't so much 'replace' it, but in fact created the entire content! Then waited generations, until everyone forgot it's real origins, then started pedaling it as 'holy gospel'...literally! That is why it is full of astrotheological, Babylonian, Mithra, and Greek mythology, because it was created, written and distributed by Romans. Who else would have the education, means and motive to do it?.

It explains the authorship, the strangeness of the stories (they're metaphorical) and 'similarities' to paganism, the divergence from Old Testament, the time lines, why Jesus wasn't recorded officially at the original time, the 'appearance' of 'fulfilled' prophecies from the Old Testament, the secrecy of the Vatican, why they had to kill so many millions of people. It is a parsimonious explanation for a change. It explains much. Reminds me of the famous line - "I'm a Roman! and I will not yield!" ...and so it appears they never did.

Let's hope that we live to see the day of it's fall in our lifetime and a new spiritual awakening. People are waking up, we are becoming more educated, because of unlimited communication (Internet) We have a real chance to come out this 'DARK AGES' that we are still living in. Imagine living and breathing the free air with a clear mind and a true understanding of our true nature. The only thing that matters is the truth. Scientific, spiritual and rational truth. The truth will set us free. Wherever it leads us, we must follow that alone. Nothing else.

Think of all the movies that make them out to be so great... hogwash, they were cold, inhuman, degenerate and cruel elitists, no more 'glorious' then Hitler.
I still have faith, still believe in Love, and am quite convinced the 'Romans' have always been manipulative, evil bastards...

Down with the Elites! :cool:

sigma6

28th May 2012, 21:22

The Masons were nearly wiped out once from an exposure of truth about their evil ways... it could happen again. Their power is deception and secrecy, therefore the anti-thesis would be outright exposure, and an awareness of the truth of their ways. Right now, most people barely have an awareness of their existence, let alone their saturation and manipulation of every faucet of our society.

RedeZra

29th May 2012, 05:35

i'm sure it's possible to present proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus never resurrected nor even existed

after all Rome destroyed the Second Temple and much of Jerusalem in 70 AD and Emperor Hadrian razed Jerusalem and established a new city called Aelia Capitolina in 135 AD

besides Jesus was not popular with the Jewish leadership at the time

i don't know if i buy the theory that the PTB invented the Bible

and then debunked it scientifically over a millenium later

by the way what shall we say to the millions who have met and been healed and helped by Jesus today ?

how shall we break it to them that they have just seen a miracle ghost

panopticon

29th May 2012, 07:16

G'day RedeZra,

i'm sure it's possible to present proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus never resurrected nor even existed

I don't have to provide evidence that the Jesus of the NT existed.
When extraordinary claims are made it is up the claimants to prove their case, not the other way round.
There is no evidence that the mythological Jesus existed as depicted in the NT.

after all Rome destroyed the Second Temple and much of Jerusalem in 70 AD and Emperor Hadrian razed Jerusalem and established a new city called Aelia Capitolina in 135 AD

Correct. Verifiable through extensive references outside of Christendom.

besides Jesus was not popular with the Jewish leadership at the time
False premise that relies on the NT as truth. Please point to evidence that the Jesus depicted in the NT existed in Jewish literature (yes there are references to a rebel leader but not the mythologised Jesus that is depicted in the NT).

i don't know if i buy the theory that the PTB invented the Bible and then debunked it scientifically over a millenium later
I agree but for different reasons.
I feel the Piso hypothesis detracts from the lack of evidence as to there having been a Jesus as depicted in the NT. :ballchain:

by the way what shall we say to the millions who have met and been healed and helped by Jesus today ?
That they healed themselves through the power of positive "intent".
There is ample evidence that people can heal themselves without the need for a "divine intervention".

how shall we break it to them that they have just seen a miracle ghost
Softly and gently my friend, softly and gently.:grouphug:
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

sigma6

29th May 2012, 12:50

Yes, we have to adjust our entire framework.

Well said Panoptican, I would add the universe wasn't created by the Romans who are essentially coming from the Egyptians and Babylonian empires. We have to get away from this, it is a form or 'ethnocentricism' It's much like the pyramid issue. Today people can't conceive of a world without corporations structured like pyramids, not realizing that the pyramid is not an just an organizational structure, but actually more of a power concentrating mechanism (think about it) For example the internet is a perfect antithetical model to the pyramid in terms of organizational structure, and yet most people have difficulty understanding or conceptualizing this. We have all the science and technology we need today, but we need to be 'reprogrammed' to start identifying and using it. I believe these problems exist precisely because of the false matrix we are living in today.

The new model I think is actually not new at all, quantum physics is now creating an entirely different picture of the universe and man. Remember classical materialist science today doesn't recognize consciousness as having any basis in material reality, as absurd as it sounds (they call it 'epi-phenomenal') This is an insult to any rational thinking person, and just another mind control device. Someone obviously knew there was a consciousness! but kept it hidden or otherwise maintained in twisted 'occult' (latin for hidden) practices, not worthy enough to be shared with the rest of the world. I don't think it's a simple picture happening out there.

Quantum physics amazingly leads us to a lot of eastern philosophic text, which was often quoted by Oppenheimer (Manhattan Project) at every opportunity. That's why I put the Cremo links above. We aren't going to crumble to pieces and cease to exist just because we expose a bunch of elite mind control terrorists. We have to get back to what Cremo, Oppenheimer, Rand, and many others have been screaming at us. The primacy of Consciousness as a foundation of our understanding. (The exact opposite point of view of 'materialists'. As usual the Materialists have taken their Satanic formula of reversing everything and calling material (the 0.000001 %) as the foundation of reality when in truth, it is only a manifestation of some form of 'energy' (or might spirit be a more accurate word?) That undefined energy (the 99.99999 %) holds the answer to consciousness, and is the fundamental reality of this universe. We need to know more about the properties of this so called 'empty space' or 'energy' or 'spirit' or 'nirvana' or 'nothingness' (meaning non-material) as in "that which is unseen" (as opposed to non-existent). It truly is something which may not be amenable to simple word definitions.

Which makes more sense - a 'materialist' scientific view - which studies the proton, neutron and electron, etc which comprises less then 0.00000001 % of the atom, or trying to figure out what the other 99.9999999 % is about? I think we are purposely being lied to. It is that 'space' inbetween those 'material' particles that will tell us infinitely more about the true nature of reality.

“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
― Max Planck

"The mystery of life is not a question to be answered, but a reality to be experienced" - Frank Herbert "Dune" 1965

panopticon

30th May 2012, 03:14

Yes, we have to adjust our entire framework.
We have to get back to what Cremo, Oppenheimer, Rand, and many others have been screaming at us.

G'day Sigma6,

I don't want to take the thread off topic however...
I would caution against placing faith in Ayn Rand's work.
I am no expert in her 'Objectivism' as it is based in laissez faire capitalism which I view is flawed in and of itself.

To quote her (http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_intro):

My philosophy, Objectivism, holds that:

Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.
Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.
Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.

There is no place in a Randian world for compassion and empathy.
George Monbiot wrote an article criticising Randian philosophy back in March titled 'A Manifesto for Psychopaths (http://www.monbiot.com/2012/03/05/a-manifesto-for-psychopaths/)' in which he states:

This holds that the only moral course is pure self-interest. We owe nothing, she insists, to anyone, even to members of our own families. She described the poor and weak as “refuse” and “parasites”, and excoriated anyone seeking to assist them. Apart from the police, the courts and the armed forces, there should be no role for government: no social security, no public health or education, no public infrastructure or transport, no fire service, no regulations, no income tax...
Rand’s is the philosophy of the psychopath, a misanthropic fantasy of cruelty, revenge and greed. Yet, as Gary Weiss shows in his new book Ayn Rand Nation, she has become to the new right what Karl Marx once was to the left: a demi-god at the head of a chiliastic cult.
Here is the first in the Adam Curtis' documentary series 'All Watched Over By Machines Of Love And Grace' from 2011 titled 'Love and Power' which shows a direct link between Ayn Rand, Alan Greenspan and the sub-prime debt crisis that started our present difficulties in 2008, while also going into the Asian Debt crisis of the later 1990's, Robert Rubin and the IMF... Curtis also mentions how the Chinese Politburo was managing the US economy in the post 9/11 years by artificially keeping their exchange rate low, buying US bonds and how this buoyed the US economy assisting in the sub-prime mortgage and derivatives fiasco...

http://vimeo.com/27393748
http://vimeo.com/27393748

Alternative downloadable source for complete documentary:
http://archive.org/details/AdamCurtis-AllWatchedOverByMachinesOfLovingGrace

I do apologise as I've gone somewhat off-topic here but just wanted to point out that Ayn Rand's philosophy may not be all that it is made out to be. Those interested in promoting centralised structural development and the consolidation of "money, control and power", all while decrying the evils of "Big Government" to the cheering masses, attach them selves to anything that promotes their agenda. Randian philosophy is a perfect fit and I am not surprised that Ayn Rand's books have been promoted as required reading in US high schools.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

write4change

30th May 2012, 04:27

I am the mother in law by marriage to Ayn Rand's adopted son Dr. Leonard Peikoff. I have done a lot of thinking about revealing what I know about these people. First, and formost they are all hypocrites. It is not simply happen stance that almost all of her inner core were Jews. They may not believe in god but they believe in genes. And what they all believe is that the Jews are by far smarter than anyone else in the world. They may not think god made them the chose people but they think the myth has served them well and they have the best genes in the world. Behind closed doors, at least in the 80s, they were always talking about the fact that 80% of all Nobel Prize winners were Jews etc. Dr. Peikoff got up and left a family wedding because the Jewish groom was marrying a Christian and no one had told him.

The bottom line belief of objectivism is that if everybody takes care of themself then no one would have to take care of any one else. This would work if everyone was born equal but they not. Not even equal opportunity. They also believe ideology. Atlas Shrugged is essentially a work of science fiction that is not even done well. It was really trashed by the critics when it came out. She was never accepted by Hollywood. None of the men she was turned on by would give her the time of day. That is why she left for New York. She was huge on self re invention.

She could get the seconds in their field to pay attention but not the greatly gifted. She posed nude for Salvadore Dali and these paintings were in her living room. They flattered her and they still weren't that good---you would not say she was sexy. Her need to have who she wants as sexual partner with young men 25 years or more her juniors would be considered child abuse. sound familiar. Dr. Peikoff was 17 when he met her and on the way to becoming a classical pianist when she totally derailed his life.

He did not marry until she died and at 54 he married a 31 year old and had his first child at 56. He then abandoned that child for a 25 year old at 65.

Atlas does really does not stand as literature, philosophy, or science fiction. There are huge linear reason problems if you really know what you are talking about. Most of these people function by having absolutely nothing to do with people by way of discussion or debate with people who do not agree with them.
Her interview with Phil Donohue and her total disregard for the audience is an example of what would be considered the contempt for the masses.

As far as I am concerned, and I have both the experience and the education, Ayn was both delusional and irrationally selfish giving not a fk for who she wounded in any way as long as she got what she wanted. She really never does deal with aspects of causality. Many of her followers had no real educational chops including Greenspan but who they knew and who they were willing to provide the reasons for the public being screwed. In essence, the cabal used her and still does--there is nothing of substance there except these people are paid extremely well.

sigma6

30th May 2012, 07:23

Fair enough, I have read Atlas Shrugged, it was 'longwinded' and 'heavy' but I still enjoyed it. I was pretty young and impressionable then too, it was very stirring emotionally. But I never really identified it with philosophy at the time. It was more about the character of the individual, being an underdog and all. To me it was more about sticking to what you believe in, when you are up against a world of corruption.

However I did come across her book which was supposed to be the 'handbook' and actual explanation of her philosophy and I was very impressed with, although I will be honest, it has been awhile since I read it. The one I was referring to was "Objectivist Epistomology", a small not more then 100 page book, that blew me away (I was taking psychology at the time, so it was quite profound for me) I was impressed with her 3 axiomatic concepts that she 'apparently' based all her succeeding philosophy on. 'Consciousness' 'Existence' and 'Identity'. The idea that she put forward 'Consciousness' as an unquestioned basis for building a philosophical framework, I thought that was very powerful philosophically and scientifically. I liked that it was 180 degrees to popular materialist thinking at the time. This was before I knew anything about eastern philosophical thought, or quantum physics, etc. Not that she was coming off mystical, not at all, she simply posited that 'consciousness' was a given. Period. Take it or leave it, it was hard to argue with, lets face it who can honestly look in the mirror and tell themselves they have no real consciousness. This was a no brainer for me. Yet I was studying psyche at the time, and she clearly brought this to my attention and I did confirm that the professors really didn't believe in 'consciousness'. She was nailing it, and I thought how ridiculous, as the alternative that all these professors are pushing is that we are all essentially really complicated 'robots' like R2D2 and C-3PO or something. (Which I don't think is possible for a host of scientific, logistical and psychological reasons, and I AM a sci fi buff!)

Anyhow, I can't argue that she is controversial, I think that many take her work and create their own interpretation on it. I think what she was saying about capitalism may have been a bit simplistic and limited to a specific context and time with certain assumptions that may be a lot harder to apply today, so in that sense by definition, one could call it a form of science fiction. Because she is creating the hypothetical 'environment' that the character is operating in, some of it was realistic, some of it didn't 'fit' (come to think of it) which makes her 'fictional' work highly interpretational which really defeats the purpose of reading Ayn Rand.

But I did like Objectivist Epistomology, (I don't have the book with me, lost it awhile back and meant to replace it). But it wasn't so much about the 'Selfishness' issue (I had a tough time with that book) although she clearly defined it as meaning self interest, and not the connotation that people put on it, I never fully got into accepting that, it felt like a play on words. People were misreading the 'word' selfish as she used it, and she was misframing 'love' and 'compassion' and dissing 'religion' which are all actually complex ideas to define properly as well, ie. too many different meanings to different people.

But getting back to O.E. I do remember liking it because it was clear what she was explaining, and it was a logical argument, saying in effect as existing, conscious individuals, humans, our surviving mechanism is 'rational thought' That is man's ultimate 'tool' for living. We survive because we have the ability to conceptualize and reason. Therefore the proper use of this ability is to exercise reason. It was almost like something 'Spock' might say. Now funny I just thought of that... Because to be honest, although she fleshed out a sound explanation and argument for this most important faculty for man. That is not ALL man is. Reason, or logical thought is one of man's tools yes, but it is not ALL we are. And likewise the character of Spock originally tried to portray him as this being of 'pure logic'. But if you watched the series closely, it became clear he obviously had 'feelings', they were just deeply 'suppressed' which psychologically would be a 'continuity error' in my mind, as that is clearly not healthy, but more interestingly Leonard Nimoy even figured out that the character needed adapting and in later versions (the movies) he expressed that. I so remember one scene where I think it was Kim Cattrell mentions something not being logical. And Spock says "Logic is the beginning of knowledge..." I was blown away, because that was a huge evolution from the original 'late 60's Spock' (where logic is ALL) and it was exactly the same conclusion I had come to. ie. it is a virtue, should be held in high regard, but it is only one of many 'tools' available to man. It is not, in and of itself, the reason for being, and cannot take into account ALL problems, it has clearly defined limits. Logic, rational thought and scientific thinking are all related in that manner... OK, I will try to reign this in...

Alright, now that said, I am quite fascinated and impressed write4change in your relationship, I do remember Dr Peikoff's name doing an introduction either in one of her books or a book written by Nathanial Brandon (he developed a psychology based on her philosophy, called The Psychology of Self-Esteem, which I do think is brilliant) I would never have thought he was her 'adopted' son? that blows me away, and thanks for sharing that.

That would be kinda 'cheating' for an introduction, I will give you that. And just to be clear then, you are saying you are married to Peikoff's Dad, and also that Ayn Rand adopted him as her son? fascinating? I also saw the Phil Donahue clip and yes I would have to agree with you that she exhibited a very harsh and prejudicial manner, a kind of arrogance. I can also picture many Jews being overly proud of the proportion of 'great minds' in the world being Jewish, etc. That's a tough call, as in a way they have kind of earned some of it, in the sense that with so much death and displacement, that I could imagine some of the survivors would have a kind of pragmatic and even brutal existential attitude about themselves and their race. Let's face it that is one very complex culture. I certainly don't agree with everything that is going on, but it is also hard to stereotype, I have met some really nice Jewish people and some real jerks, just like any other culture. And then again I have a whole separate issue with the Isreali government, and let's not even go there... LOL...

In any event, to sum up, the only works I would recommend of Ayn Rands, is Objectivist Epistomology. Skip Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead, what you want to read is a short, concise delivery of her thinking in a 100 page book (that speaks volumes) which is the book I was specifically thinking of re: consciousness. Btw if you ever wanted to private chat some time about Ayn Rand I would definitely be interested to know more, if only for historical, biographical understanding, wright4change. And Panopticon, I have no problem going a bit off topic, because I think all this part is important too. I have a saying...

"it's all grist for the mill"

P.S. and I haven't seen any trailers or previews, but I have the feeling the recent movies they are now making are going to be absolute B.S. and spin, I have been hard pressed to articulate this, but you have just made me articulate it, ha ha, that is, what I think you are saying and what I now see but could never put my finger on, is that she is too complicated to encapsulate in one paragraph. And maybe she did do this on purpose. As I have always felt (but never articulated before) the reason her fictional works are so controversial is precisely how people can take them and twist them to suit what they want to project on it, which is exactly what I think these movies will be, propaganda pieces. Mind you that cannot be said of Objectivist Epistemology. You will be able to understand it, and you can either agree or disagree with it straight away, I saw it as a model championing human reason, although in her other works, she is definitely leaning on an elitest attitude, this is true.

write4change

30th May 2012, 08:56

Sigma,

To clarify -- my husband's daughter married Dr. Peikoff and they had a daughter together who was really angry at ten about her father and the new 25 year old. At 21, she is now living in New York City again and living well and a reporter for one of Rupert Murdock's newspapers. Now she has nothing critical to say of her father because that is where the money is. Rand did not adopt Dr. Peikoff until her husband died.

Nathaniel Brandon probably did more to damage the US education system than any one person I know. His creation of the concept of self esteem over the concept of self respect is IMHO a huge bullsh t idea that is so destructive. His so called doctoral degree came from a non accredited university at the time--it has since been accredited and in its beginning gave much credit for those with money for life experience. The concept of self esteem is that the pscyche must be protected from negative projections of other people at all costs. Ways of doing this is constant reinforcement of affirmations and self affirmations like god don't make no junk.

The problems with that is no matter how much you hear good job or good boy, the inner you still knows bull****. When education was focused on teaching skills that gave the self confidence it could actually learn to do things and learn to respect the things you do--we had sounder educational programs. Nathan was the one who actually conceived the idea of creating a philosopy out Rand's writings. At 25 he was her lover and they told both their spouses they were just going to have to put up with it. There were huge ramifications of this kind of behavior in the sexually repressed 50s. From his concepts of self esteem which is more style than substance, came the more acceptable rationalization for essentially being immoral regarding doing business. You have no obligation to be honest if the person is too stupid to be aware of your misrepresentations.

One of Ayn's first indepth character analysis was her fascination with a serial killer who she found to have the courage to fulfill his own needs first.

I am glad to see how you evolved from being young. I have never been able to get through Atlas and I have tried many times. I am also a serious science fiction buff and that is why I found her writings to be so lacking. Asminov had stilted characters in the Foundation Series but nothing to my mind compared to the unreality of hers. But I am also aware that my bias to her writings are intense.

When Peikoff divorced his wife--they don't believe in alimony etc.--she was hired to write the script for Atlas for a cool one million. She had never written anything before or since to my knowledge. She was immediately voted into the writers guild and allowed to attend and vote for the oscars. I can tell you if this was a known fact there would be huge bruhaha. A lot of writers of movies actually produced do not make the writers guild. I can not get thru Shrugged on Netflix yet and she has no screen credit for that script. It is interesting that this movie could not get made for 40 years. Why because the reality is that most people do not want to see it. The theaters for one week were essentially empty. As Abraham Maslow said good art in any form is universally recognized across all classes and cultures. I always bear that in mind. Randians are usually initially sucked in because they are told --- you are frustrated because you are so special and most people fail to see the greatness in you that you can rationally proclaim to exist. Prior to this, people did not go around proclaiming how good they are --- they had to demonstrate it.

Our economy is going down the tubes because the banksters were able to convince people that free market was god -- even though all the proof exists that the free market never existed and capitalism only works with checks and balances and so it goes.

The essence for me is that none of these people work their talk. They always want something for nothing for them because they deserve it because they are so special but everybody else deserves bupkus.

sigma6

30th May 2012, 15:33

Hmm, some of my fave topics, psychology, economics, sci fi, some historical elements, you Americans live large! I am still tickled that I am communicating with someone connected to the books that had such a huge impact on me, was trying to dig up those books too, (couldn't find Branden's book either!, but I read it several times) I still like it, there were some concepts that I thought were keen observations. But again given the types of relationships you describe I would like to read it again. I don't recall him expounding behaviourism in that book necessarily, or Skinner's operant conditioning model, a hugely inefficient method for teaching intelligent subjects. Positive and negative reinforcement is universal and will work with earthworms, to pigeons, to circus animals, and humans, but good trainers realize that more holistic methods will always be more effective, the more intelligent the subject. I think you meant he was trying to create a psychology based on her philosophy, which was another model that he clearly exposed to me, ie. all faculties of psychology are in fact extensions of a particular philosophical origin. Not necessarily a bad thing, but students should be aware of this.

He had a model of emotions which I thought was brilliant, the idea that an emotion is unique and special because it is a combination of the psychological and the physical. i.e. one cannot experience an emotion without an autonomic physiological response, that physical response is an unconscious summary or accumulation of all similar past experiences to that particular (or very similar) stimuli, all unconsciously tabulated, graded, weighted, averaged and summarized as an instantaneous physiological expression (autonomic response) , a survival mechanism meant to give us an instant and unmistakable feedback to external stimuli based on past accumulated experience, an automatic overall 'good for us' or 'not good for us' response. I think that is a brilliant insight. I do believe that our minds record each and every experience intact (Penfield experiments), and that they are retrievable by the subconscious.

The implication being that this system can also fail us if we are not careful. In particular is the idea that it is based on 'perception' of experience, we must be very careful how we perceive such experiences, as each perception of each experience will eventually contribute to future 'emotional' responses to external stimuli. He gave the example of how an overtly emotional response in childhood, to a ferocious dog for example, could overwhelm the system and create a phobia... OK, in retrospect I can see that being a form of behavioural conditioning, but it is vastly more complex analysis, with more powerful implications. Anyhow, self evaluation and self analysis of our past experiences and how we choose to perceive our immediate experiences, (both exercises of rational thought can play a huge role in 'fine tuning' what will eventually become our 'emotional responses' to stimuli in the future. I think this is a hugely insightful and profound model that explains much and provides practical application. It also is one of the few psychological models that embodies a relationship between 'emotion' and 'reason' (or at least a 'potential' relationship should we 'choose'...)

Which leads me to another of his insights. He introduced the idea that man is a being of 'volitional consciousness' This is another profound observation that explains much. i.e. it explains why some people excel where others do not (this is not the only reason of course). ie. each individual has the potential for all manner of conceptual thinking, but it is not automatic, it is an exercise of will, a decision, it is 'volitional'. If that decision isn't made, that individual could very easily fall into a state of purely emotional responses, which in turn are nothing but an accumulation of past emotional experiences. (The phobic adult who is afraid of dogs for ex.) This was ahead of it's time, today we can see this as a computer model, and we are in fact the 'programmers' of our own thinking. Garbage in, garbage out. The more rational, more positive, more analytical tools we develop, such as maths, geometry, statistics, logic, reasoning, all algorithmic 'functions' that need to be developed before they can be utilized the more intellectually capable we can become to solve problems and build our future. The 'Spock' logic as a virtue element is there. And he had a few more ideas I can't completely articulate that I thought were profound. No disrespect.

Of course I can't approve nor really judge his personal life based on what you told me. That is pushing the boundaries of existentialism a little too far imo, and truly surprises me that would be his style. Ayn Rand I could see her going that way. Experimenting with one's moral values is playing with Karma, very risky, very predictable outcomes imo. Then again how does one learn that? but by testing reality, problem is when terrible consequences result if one is not just as honest with measuring the results! as most are not, one can end up in a world of hurt and pain and denial that they never escape from, again it flows back to Branden's model. If we fill our memories with recordings of inaccurate or false perceptions (ie. if we 'lie/deny to ourselves' we are destroying the functionality of our future emotional responses) It inevitably gets down to some measure of truth, or accurate feedback. That is why I think 'Truth' and 'Love' are fundamental, and irrefutable foundations for any model of psychological health. Although I know nothing is simple here, but at least in this (albeit limited) sense one truly gets out of life what one puts in everything else not withstanding. I try my hardest to avoid lying to myself or others for this very reason, and can't understand how he would have missed this, as what you describe could only have lead to a lot of unimaginable pain and suffering ultimately.

P.S. I hero worshipped Asimov, lol, I miss reading his stories.

jagman

30th May 2012, 16:23

sigma6

30th May 2012, 20:26

observer

30th May 2012, 23:21

Satan is a liar and a master at manipulating the masses... [emphasis added by observer]
If through his deception, He can make you believe Jesus never existed or atleast make you believe he was not Gods son, His deception is almost complete. After that, He only has to decieve you into following him.

The portion of your comment that I emphasized is most accurate, jagman.

The problem with the rest of what you say is that the lie Satan created, the Roman sponsored religion, Trinity Christianity was one of Satan's best works. It created nearly two thousand years of obscene pain and suffering under the rule of the Holy Roman Empire, Catholicism.

The entity, Yashu ben Joseph (Yeshua/Yashuah ) surely was an historical figure. His literal teachings were excluded from the text of the New Testament in lieu of a mythical concoction which was edited and re-edited repeatedly over a four hundred year period of time prior to the final canonization of the Bible.

Trinity Christianity, and the entity Jesus are a mythological creation of (what you call) Satan, (what I call Archon/Reptiles (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?45250-Jesus-the-man-JESUS-the-Archon----inspired-by-Houman--s-Horus-Ra-thread))

If you truly want to educate yourself as to what the historical entity, Yashu ben Joseph really gave to humanity, you should study the Nag Hammadi Library. Those text were unearthed in 1945 and were unmolested by the Archon influence for nearly two thousand years.

You will clearly see that Yashu was telling us that we all can be 'Sons of God'. You will also gain a clear understanding that Yashu was excluding himself from the god of the Old Testament, Jehovah/Yahweh whom Yashu referred to as the Devil.

Once you have studied the excluded Gospels and other text of the Nag Hammadi Library you will get an understanding of why these text were excluded from the Roman sponsored Bible.

As Lloyd Pie has said, "everything we think we know is a lie".

For an in-depth study into the actual words of Yashu ben Joseph, see here (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/nag_hammadi/contents.htm).

sigma6

31st May 2012, 04:04

I really like Richard C Hoagland's line... "The lie is different at every level"... now that's insight.

A perfect nutshell of how a pyramidal organization based on secrecy would operate. Build the pyramid, instill mindless loyalty, add compartmentalization, feed false information at each level, install police and eliminate any strays. Each level can only see so many levels above...

That's how 1% can leverage their control against 99%, whom wouldn't even know who is at the pinnacle.

RedeZra

31st May 2012, 09:34

The problem with the rest of what you say is that the lie Satan created, the Roman sponsored religion, Trinity Christianity was one of Satan's best works. It created nearly two thousand years of obscene pain and suffering under the rule of the Holy Roman Empire, Catholicism.

......

You will clearly see that Yashu was telling us that we all can be 'Sons of God'. You will also gain a clear understanding that Yashu was excluding himself from the god of the Old Testament, Jehovah/Yahweh whom Yashu referred to as the Devil.

Gnosticism could not cope with God of the Old Testament

who once flooded the whole earth incinerated Sodom and Gomorrah made war against the Nephilim in Canaan and gave mankind the Ten Commandments writ in stone

while Catholicism embraced and incorporated God of the Old Testament as the God of gods and men and the Father of Jesus Christ

so in Catholicism Israel and the Jews are not devil worshippers

panopticon

31st May 2012, 10:01

I've really enjoyed the information provided in this thread and the civil way that it has been discussed.
It is good to know that even though we may hold different perspectives we can respect the rights of others to theirs.

I'd like to thank write4change for providing a personal insight into the members of Rand's inner circle.

I have had no exposure to Randian philosophy (it isn't well known in Australia) and only became aware of it through my research into some "right-wing" think-tanks in Australia and through the Adam Curtis' documentary I posted earlier. I am going to read the book sigma6 suggested (as time permits) but as Rand's philosophy incorporates laissez-faire capitalism I don't know how useful it will be to me outside of understanding those think-tanks philosophy (much as having read Marx assists in understanding the State-socialist philosophy).

When I mentioned Rand I wasn't anticipating the expose, nor the interesting conversation that has resulted. All in a thread discussing the historicity of Jesus. Excellent!
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

panopticon

31st May 2012, 10:38

Gnosticism could not cope with God of the Old Testament
who once flooded the whole earth incinerated Sodom and Gomorrah made war against the Nephilim in Canaan and gave mankind the Ten Commandments writ in stone
while Catholicism embraced and incorporated God of the Old Testament as the God of gods and men and the Father of Jesus Christ
so in Catholicism Israel and the Jews are not devil worshippers

G'day RedeZra,

You and I have discussed this before in some depth and I would once again point out to you that the reason the Old Testament was incorporated into the Bible was to give the newly formed "Christian Churches" (there were many varieties and "flavours" in its beginning) a longer history. This was so they could compete with the many older and more powerful religions present at the time (circa 100 CE - 350 CE). In other words it was more impressive for them to say "Ours is a religion with a thousand years of history" than to say "Ours is a religion with a 100 year history".

You know about Marcion's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope) "Bible" (the first grouping of Christian writings) and that it didn't incorporate the OT because he viewed, as did many others, that the God of the OT was nothing like the one depicted in either Christianity or the collected works of many Christian writers from the period (excluding 'Revelations' which was almost not included in the Bible). Marcion was the first to be declared a heretic... His "church" continued on into the third century CE when, I think from memory (please correct me if I'm wrong), it was finally "cleansed" by Constantine's mob.

We've also debated ad nauseam the lack of evidence that a world wide flood event occurred and the same goes for the Sodom and Gomorrah story. I have stated that there is evidence for a localised flooding event that would have had an effect in the region and this is in all likelihood the origin of the Epic of Gilgamesh/Atrahasis flood myths (that pre-dates the one from the Tanakh and is in all likelihood the origin of the story).
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

RedeZra

31st May 2012, 15:33

G'day RedeZra,

You and I have discussed this before in some depth and I would once again point out to you that the reason the Old Testament was incorporated into the Bible was to give the newly formed "Christian Churches" (there were many varieties and "flavours" in its beginning) a longer history. This was so they could compete with the many older and more powerful religions present at the time (circa 100 CE - 350 CE). In other words it was more impressive for them to say "Ours is a religion with a thousand years of history" than to say "Ours is a religion with a 100 year history".

hi Pan

yea i know we have talked about this before but the Old Testament or the Hebrew Tanakh is often quoted in the New Testament and so it is imo a natural backdrop to Jesus Christ

and His following who were persecuted first from Jerusalem and then from Rome

til Constantine the Great forbade religious persecution and helped establish what would become the Catholic Church as the Religion of the Roman Empire

You know about Marcion's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope) "Bible" (the first grouping of Christian writings) and that it didn't incorporate the OT because he viewed, as did many others, that the God of the OT was nothing like the one depicted in either Christianity or the collected works of many Christian writers from the period (excluding 'Revelations' which was almost not included in the Bible). Marcion was the first to be declared a heretic... His "church" continued on into the third century CE when, I think from memory (please correct me if I'm wrong), it was finally "cleansed" by Constantine's mob.

Jesus as He is depicted in the New Testament is as strict as Yahweh of the Old Testament

and refers to the Torah as the Law

We've also debated ad nauseam the lack of evidence that a world wide flood event occurred and the same goes for the Sodom and Gomorrah story. I have stated that there is evidence for a localised flooding event that would have had an effect in the region and this is in all likelihood the origin of the Epic of Gilgamesh/Atrahasis flood myths (that pre-dates the one from the Tanakh and is in all likelihood the origin of the story).
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

there is evidence for a world wide flood in what is called polystrate fossils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystrate_fossil) and the general fossil record is evidence of a sudden burial under mud

then we have marine fossils in the mountains and frozen mammoths indicating a sudden cataclysmic event

jagman

31st May 2012, 16:15

Satan is a liar and a master at manipulating the masses... If through his deception, He can make you believe Jesus never existed or atleast make you believe he was not Gods son, His deception is almost complete. After that, He only has to decieve you into following him.

Yeah, I used to feel that way too Jag, but I just don't think it's that simple anymore, I would encourage you to view some of the videos and web links put up, and share your opinions on the research dug up so far... there are some pretty tough questions that need answers...

Hi Sigma, I hope you dont think my comments were pointed at you. I applaud you
for using critical thinking when discussing the Bible or God. He doesn't want mindless
robots following him. ( Thus Freewill. )

I'm not a prophet and I'm also not a real big fan of organized religon. ( the hypocrisy)
The Lord took pity on me once and He sent an angel to me in my darkest hour.
I used to wonder why? There was nothing special about me. ( In my mind I thought.)
I was just a man at the end of his rope who on bended knee who asked God for help.
Sigma, I would encourage you to examine all the possiblities.

Luke 11:9 So I say to you: Keep asking, and it will be given you. Keep searching, and you will find. Keep knocking, and the door will be opened for you,

sigma6

31st May 2012, 23:58

Yes thanks everyone for all feedbacks... personally I definitely think there are other entities out there, good and evil, a spiritual element and supernatural phenomena. I guess I have always tended toward alternative interpretations. I am fascinated with the Bible from a historical and legal point of view as well as a philosophical text. I believe it has several layers of hidden information in it, hidden code. Problem is most people don't actually read it. Everyone who is a bibliophile should read it once. Even Hitchens recognized it as a 'must read'. I intend to analyze it a second time (and take notes!)

Having achieved a single reading has given me a different perspective, I now see it as one reference within the context of a larger library of many other world views. I now cross reference it with other works. It makes reference to Sumerian texts (as well as all the other cultures mentioned), Nephilim, spirits, a plurality of Gods (besides Trinity) names the Anak, a reference to Annunaki, its influence is everywhere, from history to prophecy. It enriches my reading of Sitchen and Shakespeare to Michael S Heiser, Chuck Missler, David Flynn, Bart Ehrman, and many others. I encourage people not to throw the baby out with the bath water. I don't have complete answers, I don't give up and I have no problem living with the uncertainty, that is the nature of science, not pretending to know what you don't know. I'm at the stage, where I feel the more I learn the less I know. I now seek the mystical, the profound...haha (wish me luck...)

nosgib

1st June 2012, 00:19

panopticon

1st June 2012, 03:13

G'day RedeZra,

hi Pan
yea i know we have talked about this before but the Old Testament or the Hebrew Tanakh is often quoted in the New Testament and so it is imo a natural backdrop to Jesus Christ
and His following who were persecuted first from Jerusalem and then from Rome
til Constantine the Great forbade religious persecution and helped establish what would become the Catholic Church as the Religion of the Roman Empire
I agree with much that you've said above as the Tanakh assists in understanding the underlying cultural perspective of the Jews at that time. I also agree that the Jews, Christians and many other groups were persecuted in Jerusalem following the revolt (66 CE - 70 CE) and that the Christians were persecuted in Rome (though at a later period).

What I would point out is that Constantine first stopped religious persectution and then re-instigated it (from memory a decade later) to focus on the religions and cults that were very powerful at the time and at odds with both Christianity and his rule as Emperor. The adoption of Christianity as the State religion has been interpreted by many scholars, and rightly so in my opinion, as a way of consolidating power and control within Constantines hands. Please note that I am not saying that Constantine was only using Christianity as a tool of oppression without a belief that he was doing the "divine will" (I can not find evidence that this was the case). I am merely stating what occurred. The rivals of the newly adopted Catholic Church were dispossessed, persecuted and had their property taken by the State.

You know about Marcion's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope) "Bible" (the first grouping of Christian writings) and that it didn't incorporate the OT because he viewed, as did many others, that the God of the OT was nothing like the one depicted in either Christianity or the collected works of many Christian writers from the period (excluding 'Revelations' which was almost not included in the Bible). Marcion was the first to be declared a heretic... His "church" continued on into the third century CE when, I think from memory (please correct me if I'm wrong), it was finally "cleansed" by Constantine's mob.

Jesus as He is depicted in the New Testament is as strict as Yahweh of the Old Testament and refers to the Torah as the Law

I agree completely with you here. The modern "flavours" of Christianity are at odds with much that appears in the New Testament. I was stating that the depiction of Jesus in the NT was distilled into a particular "flavour" by the fledgeling Church in the way they adopted certain writings as canon and that the inclusion of the Old Testament (Tanakh) was not a "divine act" but that of man.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

We've also debated ad nauseam the lack of evidence that a world wide flood event occurred and the same goes for the Sodom and Gomorrah story. I have stated that there is evidence for a localised flooding event that would have had an effect in the region and this is in all likelihood the origin of the Epic of Gilgamesh/Atrahasis flood myths (that pre-dates the one from the Tanakh and is in all likelihood the origin of the story).

there is evidence for a world wide flood in what is called polystrate fossils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystrate_fossil) and the general fossil record is evidence of a sudden burial under mud
then we have marine fossils in the mountains and frozen mammoths indicating a sudden cataclysmic event

This is an oft stated hypothesis used by creationists and ignores the many understandings that geology has provided. The phenomenon of polystrate fossils has nothing to do with a world wide flood. Its use by creationists as evidence of such a cataclysm ignores that it is an isolted phenomenon that occurs under special conditions. As for marine fossils being found on mountains that is also a much used agrument that ignores geology and an understanding of fossil formation. The movement of tectonic plates, and what is known as "tectonic uplift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tectonic_uplift)", explains this quite well.

One question though... How do you reckon that Mammoths were snap frozen by a flood?
I do agree with you that this was caused by a cataclysmic event just the isolated groupings of frozen Mammoths in and around the Arctic circle do not, to my mind, point to a world wide flood. Though an isolated flooding event in conjunction with other events (volcanic eruption causing a drop in world temperatures for example) explains it.

Thank you, as usual, for both the interesting and civil discussion.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

panopticon

1st June 2012, 03:23

Interesting isn't it, you take on the current philosophy of
mankind and one gets ridiculed for it . But I will persist.
The New Testament has been hijacked by those with a
vested interest in doing so.(now plenty of people have said that previously) "But" when one writes a Oracle knowing that shortly I will turn the expose into a chronicle then gets
Stonewalled by Everyone, it's no wonder this Planet and
the Human Being is facing the problems (currently) and what
is to come.
A Cure for Cancer and proof of God
The cure is n 60 www.revelations.iinet.net.au
The Record is a extrapolation of my journey.
(also I have been told that the (old) testament takes precedent over the (new) So carrying on from Exodus and proving creation is one big call (thus it requires a Cure to do so).…Regards.

G'day Nosgib,

I don't recall ridiculing your posts in the past...
I visited your page and (from a cursory view) while I don't agree with your beliefs I support your right to believe what ever you wish.
They are your personal beliefs and as such if you were to say, an example at random, 'The original painting of the last supper was painted 2000 years prior to the event happening' I would require you, or anyone else for that matter, to provide evidence to support your claim if you were to state them as fact to me.
Other than that your beliefs are your beliefs and I have no interest in ridiculing you for them.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

sigma6

1st June 2012, 07:51

sigma6

1st June 2012, 07:55

for what it's worth, I have NOT read through all this, but someone referenced it for me and just to show I'm willing to look at anything, I will post it here so I can find it later... if it's crap I might delete it... (but it looks interesting...)

King Arthur and Khumric British History
http://www.kingarthurslegacy.com/

Hervé

1st June 2012, 09:04

panopticon

2nd June 2012, 02:33

One question though... How do you reckon that Mammoths were snap frozen by a flood?
I do agree with you that this was caused by a cataclysmic event just the isolated groupings of frozen Mammoths in and around the Arctic circle do not, to my mind, point to a world wide flood. Though an isolated flooding event in conjunction with other events (volcanic eruption causing a drop in world temperatures for example) explains it.

I would disagree, volcanic eruption wouldn't be able to flash freeze a woolly mammoth... not quick enough. The most fitting hypothesis imo, would be a pole shift. That would create mile high tsunamis, floods, earth quakes, temperature shifts, and could have happened within hours, the woolly's were eating summer greens one moment, and then in the next moment they were deluged by a couple hundred foot arctic tsunami racing toward them at 300 miles an hour (or that sort of thing...)

A pole shift wouldn't still be fast enough to flash freeze freshly ingested vegetals, the latter having been known to be served as "fresh salads" at "Explorers' Club" reunions when properly thawed.

The likely scenario is something as depicted in the movie "The day after tomorrow" where the air cover is somehow removed in a blink of an eye (never mind, in the movie, helicopter still flying with no air to sustain their flight... they should have hit the ground before starting to freeze).

Removing the air cover and deep frozen "space" (a few degrees above absolute "zero") hitting the ground could have been accomplished by a large meteorite sucking out the air cover, creating a high wave tsunami and a pole shift when hitting the ground.

That's about the only thing which could account for all the current known facts and our known current technologies.

Thanks for the input everyone.

Your responses made me examine the underlying premise of my question to RedeZra (it's a buggar sometimes being a quasi-deconstructionist) as I am unsure what is myth, what is "Hollywood" story-telling and what is "real" in this instance.

I thought I'd investigate this question on "snap frozen" mammoths a little (it's raining here so work is at a stand still for the moment) and came across this interesting paper: 'Frozen Mammoths and Modern Geology (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/133/3455/729)' by William R. Farrand (Science, 1961) which he states on pages 733-734:

There is no direct evidence that any woolly mammoth froze to death. In fact, the healthy, robust condition of the cadavers and their full stomachs argue against death by slow freezing. On the other hand, the large size of their warm-blooded bodies is not compatible with sudden freezing. In addition, all the frozen specimens were rotten and, in most cases, had been somewhat mutilated by predators prior to freezing. This is attested to by many first-hand accounts (2, p. 60; 15; 20, p. 274; 31). Although some of the flesh recovered from the cadavers was "fibrous and marbled with fat" and looked "as fresh as well-frozen beef or horse-meat," only dogs showed any appetite for it; "the stench ... was unbearable" (1, pp. 119, 129). Histological examination of fat and flesh of the Berezovka mammoth showed "deep penetrating chemical alteration as a result of the very slow decay," and even the frozen ground surrounding a mammoth had the same putrid odor, implying decay before freezing (2, p. 60). Furthermore, the stories of a banquet on the flesh of the Berezovka mammoth were "a hundred per cent invention" (2, p. 60).
And then later in his conclusion (p. 734):

The well-preserved specimens, with food in their stomachs and between their teeth, must have died suddenly, probably from asphyxia resulting from drowning in a lake or bog or from being buried alive by a mudflow or cavein of a river bank. Since only the heavy-footed giants of the fauna -- the mammoths and woolly rhinoceroses -- have been found in a frozen state, it is very unlikely that a catastrophic congelation occurred in Siberia. On the contrary, the frozen giants are indicative of a normal and expected (uniformitarian) circumstance of life on the tundra.
There's more explanation/evidence in the paper (naturally) and I've only copied some of the pertinent bits to do with their freezing/death.

So my question here is: What evidence is there that "flash freezing" occurred and what evidence is there for the "explorer club" story?

I wonder how much is of the "tall tale" variety told at the bar to illicit free grog from fawning companions...
I had not looked into this before and am interested if anyone else has any evidence of it occurring...

Also came across this site (appears quite new) that is a group of scientists/explorers who search out woolly mammoth, woolly rhinoceros and other fauna/flora frozen in the Siberian and Alaskan permafrost:
http://mammuthus.org/

I look forward to your replies.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Hervé

2nd June 2012, 04:48

sigma6

2nd June 2012, 05:16

update: First of all I want to say that by definition, this is ALL speculation for all of us. And a good exercise at developing our deductive reasoning at that. But I have to admit I am having a hard time making sense of what your saying just above. On the one hand he (your source) is recognizing that they died with food in their stomach and mouth. But then says because it is only Mammoths and Rhinoceroses it is indicative of what? I am not sure what your actually saying there. My take would be because of their huge size, they would be the most easily 'survived' specimens, ie. when whatever 'swept through' they might have been the only thing big enough to stay in one piece. And I say swept through, I don' see this as an isolated incident, these Mammoths are being turned up everywhere, it had to have been huge whatever it was.

Also I read somewhere that the type of plant was specifically from a hot temperate or warmer climate, which is why it was such a mystery. I don't really get why he thinks it is 'typical' finding, not one but several of these Mammoths with the vegetation still intact. I do agree, they may have drowned first, the food in mouth had to have been an 'immediate death' scenario. Then regardless how well they froze, it still would have been counted in hours, a huge Mammoth would still take several hours maybe a day or two to completely freeze, so some decay wouldn't be inconsistent with being 'transported' to a freezing environment. but the freezing couldn't have taken more then two or three days, otherwise they would have been stinking bloated carcasses, and the idea of even sampling a small portion would have been out of the question, and the vegetation would have also been greatly putrified.

By Flash frozen I was just making reference that one moment they were eating, and the next they are dead, and at the very least the 'freezing process' must have started right away, although it may have taken maybe more then a couple days, to completely freeze an elephant. But it must have started within the hour to prevent the veggies rotting in their mouth and stomach. It had to be hours (maybe many, but still hours) instead of days.

I heard about them sampling the meat, but never gave it that much thought, never heard about any 'banquet', what I read just gave the impression, it was done on a lark, to 'record' for posterity, to highlight that there it was still existing flesh, which is quite amazing in itself given how many thousands of years it must have been there. I don't think anyone would seriously consider 'feasting' on some unknown animal carcass.

I am not entirely clear what your source is proposing, as it sounds too vague to understand exactly the picture he is painting. It sounds like you are saying they got hit by a mudslide as one possibility, and then were frozen. I still think the pole shift would still fit with this scenario. I will conjecture that whatever happened it was far ranging, else they wouldn't be turning up so many intact carcasses to this day.

ghostrider

2nd June 2012, 06:05

every culture looks to someone else to save them, so as not to take responsibilty for their own actions. the greeks need Zeus, Muslims need Allah, Jews need Jevhovah, christians need Jesus, Norweigans need Odin, chinese need Budda, they never look in the mirror .

panopticon

2nd June 2012, 07:32

So my question here is: What evidence is there that "flash freezing" occurred and what evidence is there for the "explorer club" story?

[...]

Sorry, gona have to ask the few select who ate it and found it delicious... probably all dead of old age by now.

That was the only evidence that these mastodonts were flash frozen since the vegetables in their stomach would have had to freeze under 60 seconds in order to exhibit the freshness and crunchiness of said vegetables once defrost. That would mean these woolly beasts would have had to be thrown in a pool of liquid nitrogen of some sort and swallowed some. Hence my post above.

If that evidence is a tall tale instead of a OOPA... well, back to square one.

G'day Amzer Zo,

This is where I'm a tad confused and leaning towards it being a "tall tale".
I'm not even sure if the "salad" would have been human edible (even before it was allegedly frozen) so what does that leave?

I agree with your analysis of liquid nitrogen or being exposed to space though again there's no evidence from that period (roughly 40,000 BCE give or take a 10000 years or so :spy: ) of an event like that occurring that I'm aware of...
Plus, as Farrand pointed out, wouldn't there be an abundance of smaller animals also frozen along with the woolly mammoth and rhino if such a cataclysm occurred?

So I'm left thinking that there was no "flash freeze" event and the woolly mammoth and rhino discovered in the permafrost died from what the coroner would now call "misadventure" (ie fell through frozen river, swept away by rivers, mud slides etc).
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

panopticon

2nd June 2012, 08:09

First off this is ALL speculation. And I have to admit I am having a hard time making sense of what your saying. On the one hand he (your source) is recognizing that they died with food in their stomach and mouth. But then says because it is only Mammoths and Rhinoceroses is indicative of what? I am not sure. My take would be because of their huge size, they would be the most easily 'survived' specimens, ie. when whatever 'swept through' they might have been the only thing big enough to stay in one piece. And I say swept through, I don' see this as an isolated incident, these Mammoths are being turned up everywhere, it had to have been huge whatever it was.

G'day Sigma6,

The mammoth that have been found appear to be dated to various periods, 1000's of years apart, not just one single event. There had been 39 "corpses" found by 1961 according to Farrand and others. All appeared to be in various states of decay prior to their entombment. The remainder of the finds appear to be mostly skeletons.

Also I read somewhere that the type of plant was specifically from a hot temperate or warmer climate, which is why it was such a mystery. I don't really get why he thinks it is 'typical' finding, not one but several of these Mammoths with the vegetation still intact. I do agree, they may have drowned first, the food in mouth had to have been an 'immediate death' scenario. Then regardless how well they froze, it still would have been counted in hours, a huge Mammoth would still take several hours maybe a day or two to completely freeze, so some decay wouldn't be inconsistent with being 'transported' to a freezing environment. but the freezing couldn't have taken more then two or three days, otherwise they would have been stinking bloated carcasses, and the idea of even sampling a small portion would have been out of the question, and the vegetation would have also been greatly putrified.
Yep. That's my point. The majority of it evidently was rancid. Also can't find any evidence that the "flash freezing" actually occurred. The vegetation was not from a 'hot temperate or warmer climate', evidently that's part of the myth. Below is a copy of the plants found in what is known as the Berezovka mammoth:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=16686&d=1338623938

By Flash frozen I was just making reference that one moment they were eating, and the next they are dead, and at the very least the 'freezing process' must have started right away, although it may have taken maybe more then a couple days, to completely freeze an elephant. But it must have started within the hour to prevent the veggies rotting in their mouth and stomach. It had to be hours (maybe many, but still hours) instead of days.
I agree, there appears to be no actual evidence that a "flash freeze" occurred. It appears to be mostly legend that I've sourced back a few authors and newspaper articles.

I heard about them sampling the meat, but never gave it that much thought, never heard about any 'banquet', what I read just gave the impression, it was done on a lark, to 'record' for posterity, to highlight that there it was still existing flesh, which is quite amazing in itself given how many thousands of years it must have been there. I don't think anyone would seriously consider 'feasting' on some unknown animal carcass.

I am not entirely clear what your source is proposing, as it sounds too vague to understand exactly the picture he is painting. It sounds like you are saying they got hit by a mudslide as one possibility, and then were frozen. I still think the pole shift would still fit with this scenario. I will conjecture that whatever happened it was far ranging, else they wouldn't be turning up so many intact carcasses to this day.

Where my problem was with all this was I was under the impression that the mammoths were all dated from the same period. This was incorrect. It appears they are dated over thousands of years.

An article on a baby mammoth (nick-named 'Lyuba' found in 2007) talking about the rate of decay and damage to the "calf" can be found here:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/05/mammoths/mueller-text/1

The "source" I was quoting is a peer reviewed journal article in Science and can be found here:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/133/3455/729

PM for more info if you want.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Addendum:

Thought I'd have a look at some of the plants identified in the list given above. All are classified as Arctic, sub-Arctic and/or frost hardy so the mammoths appear to have been living in a climate only a little warmer than present (or maybe that's one not that different to what we are coming in to with the permafrost melting).

Examples taken @ random:

Abies sibirica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abies_sibirica

Artemisia borealis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemisia_borealis
http://www.arcticatlas.org/photos/pltspecies/spp_details?queryID=arcab2
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ARCAB4

Elymus sibiricus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elymus_(genus)
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ELSI

Pedicularis cf. sudetica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedicularis
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=PESU
http://www.mun.ca/biology/delta/arcticf/_ca/www/scpesu.htm

observer

2nd June 2012, 14:03

I tend to lean toward panopticon suggestion with the 'frozen salad theory' being an urban legend. He has offered too much evidence to show the instantaneous freezing model is nothing more than Hollywood spin.

Cutting-edge plasma physicists like Hannes Alfvén (http://en.wikipedia#org/wiki/Hannes_Alfv%C3%A9n) have offered evidence that we live in an "Electric Universe". Our planet is nothing more than a giant alternator creating electromagnetic fields caused by the molten iron core and the spin of the earth.

Streams of plasma millions of light-years across have been observed in the universe. In the laboratory, plasma can only be linked to electricity.

It is the earth's magnetosphere that protects life on the surface from the bombardment of cosmic energies, such as the Solar Winds.

The archeological record indicates that a regular pattern of rising and declining magnetosphere intensities are linked to an historic documentation of pole shifts. Right now the intensity of the magnetosphere is declining, and the poles are wandering at an unusual rate, see here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGKKzsRjJ_Y).

Not to discount amzer's suggestion of a rogue asteroid being a possible candidate for a single random frozen wooly mammoth event, however, the record will show a reoccurring pole-shift pattern is linked more to the Electric Universe Model (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4773590301316220374&ei=kPM1SfiSDIruqAKNrdWkCQ&q=thunderbolts+of+the+gods+#).

sigma6

2nd June 2012, 17:14

Let's not forget we live in a matrix, an artificially construed version of the real world 'adjusted' and altered in innumerable points according to a specific agenda. I had to add this because of the following 'rant' of sorts, but bare me out...

Interesting Panoptican, good research... although I will pose one criticism, I highly question the 'dating' methods used by scientists these days, from my understanding there is huge, huge controversy regarding geological (rock) dating, carbon-14 dating, and I am going to speculate that it follows right into whatever method they are using for dating biological entities from supposedly 10s of thousands of years ago as well. Although this is a broad and general criticism and I will grant that. I truly believe it is well pointed, as the reason for it is because all of these 'sciences' affect the Mason controlled University system controlling all 'evolution' related 'science'. And I for one believe without exception, it has been compromised (as unscientific as that may seem) ie. I believe in no uncertain terms that it is done on purpose.

One of the most stunning examples was brought to my attention by none other then Kent Hovind (yes I can hear the comments already ha!) but he did make an absolutely brilliant observation by way of simple example, that how they measure the ice layers (in this instance) was completely 180 degrees dead wrong, why? - they determined a depth of ice to be over 60,000 years old but when they got down to that level, lo and behold they found a WWII Bomber buried in the snow, they weren't off by a thousand years here and there, they were playing in another baseball stadium... That one (little known) example clearly exposed them as the charlatans they truly are, (even if they did believe their own misinformation.) Anyone of integrity on the scene would have had to give their 'scientific method' a good re-think, wouldn't you say?

The same issue has come up with Carbon-14 dating. Not to go into it too deeply, but it is hugely dependent on one assumption that is either difficult to test so far, and/or has been quietly pushed in the background. And that is that the amount of available carbon either in the air and land (or something to that effect) is assumed to be a constant, well is it any wonder they have now found this is absolutely not true? that it has been steadily increasing, (or vice versa... ) the point is, the conclusion was clear, that if true, it has grossly over inflated all the numbers ever produced on the dates being proposed. I also respect Richard Milton's presentation in the Mysterious origins of Man where he points out another similar huge controversy regarding the method of geological rock dating.

I can't believe that all this is because somehow we are more smarter and perceptive then all these scientists. And that every time they get it wrong it is always hundreds of thousands, to millions of years off, and always in a direction (or misdirection) that 'seems' to support evolutionary theory (which is nothing more then a convoluted re-interpretation of adaption which has nothing to do with 'evolution' as they connotate it). Instead it is more likely this has to go back to the same old game. There are those who are pushing an agenda, and in an absolute 'spit in the face' to true science and methodology, they have their agenda first and they will bribe (fund) anyone who 'tows the line' and demote, attack, and 'excommunicate' anyone who tries to bring in science based on independent thought and research. Nothing could be more unethical or evil. But we know for a fact, especially today, that this has to be taken into consideration. In the case of Hovind's example, there is absolutely no escape. And the grossness of the inaccuracy is inexcusable, he single handedly threw their entire methodology right in the toilet. Which is why I think he is so viciously attacked, when in a true scientific paradigm he should have been lauded for his observation and contribution. This is what science is supposed to do!

Now regarding the plants, your research looks pretty compelling I am going through it... I will try to remember where I heard the temperate plant theory from. But again, something doesn't sound right about it, even if it was spread out over thousands of years, it seems to obfuscate the fact that this phenomena has occurred at all. Now that there are so many of them (all in Siberia only btw) it seems to be trying to minimize how truly unique these findings really are. Finding one frozen carcass from thousands of years ago is an absolute lottery. Yet in this one region they are finding dozens and they are suppose have all some how all have fallen into a river drift, while eating at the same time, and then got frozen before the body decayed, and this just kept happening over and over, and only in this part of the world. I hope you can see how improbable I find such an analysis at first blush. But... I am going to look more at your research with a critical eye, a very critical eye, because of the amount of material you have brought to bare on the subject, but there is my bias (or intuition) ie. it just doesn't 'smell' right.

I still believe that the Mammoths are still an unsolved mystery. But I think the evidence clearly points to something evolutionists, and people who want to deny pole shifts (as possible examples) may not want to recognize and thus must automatically create a counter measure propaganda campaign. We absolutely live in a Big Brother State, with thought police, and Word smiths (lawyers/politicians) who change the meanings of our words, We have a corporate executive of Monsanto as one of the directors of the FDA, we have pro - evolutionist masonic directors of universities (who of all people should and probably do know better) running the curriculum that is being spooned into students' minds, in order to create more of those dedicated scientists, like the ones who found the WWII bomber (much to their surprise, I am sure)... and when one of their schemes goes wrong like the multi-trillion dollar non existent H1N1 virus (that never happened, oops, back to the drawing board) there is a strange number of microbiologists being murdered in bizarre circumstances. This rabbit hole is full of so many skeletons and bullsh**, we are just scratching the surface!

These evil twisted bastards have not only cut us off from the non-material realities of our consciousness, they don't even follow their own scientific materialist methodology when it might expose the cracks in their artificial matrix! How much more hypocritical can it get!?

So... I will re-iterate as much as we push back and forth as we share all our information, that it is understood by me that everyone is merely projecting their best 'theoretical' understanding and belief. That we must all be willing to admit if and when we are wrong, and as quickly as possible. And to do this in a scientific and (ironically) humble manner, if we are to truly practice the spirit of truth in scientific analysis... It is unfortunate, but we live in an age where we have few true leaders, people that we cannot follow the example of, ie, political and economic leaders, professors, spiritual leaders, etc. nor do I agree with the legalistic and artificially created logic of our lawyers and the court system, which has subconsciously been picked up and 'emulated' by laypeople (through media and television) as some form of 'superior logic'. Not realizing it is purposely false, a fiction within a fiction, just another level of hidden control, another stacking of the deck. People must come to grips that the deceit has been built over thousands of years. If one is not actively looking for it, one is most likely already compromised by it. As sad as that may sound, that is what it is to be living in this time. And individuals do make themselves more susceptible by not seriously seeking ultimate truths in their own value system, as most people lack a fundamental philosophical system of their own. We are truly living in a dangerous time, walking a narrow path.

Therefore, as always my proposal is that we must therefore use our desire for truth as a guide post to direct our reason, to keep our minds open to new information and humble to necessary changes that may arise as a result. To develop our own abilities and trust in our own perceptions and observations, and above all to not be afraid to ask our own questions. Learning new information and adjusting our current understanding does mean that sometimes we may have to let go of long cherished beliefs. Hopefully if we are true to that principle, I would imagine, that one should have to make fewer and fewer changes over the longer term (knock on wood). But, nonetheless, it absolutely behooves us to ALWAYS be WILLING to make that change so long as we breathe. And that this kind of thinking we must constantly put before our awareness.

This I believe we must do if we are to be the examples that the elite are not (nor the 'excessively privileged' upper middle class (yes men) that feed off and support their machinations). So in that spirit I am going to take a good look at your info which you have apparently put a great deal of thought and research into... stay tuned... ';.{

sigma6

2nd June 2012, 19:55

Bits and pieces, chronological 'catch up' of responses...

observer - Many researchers are looking into the possibility that the Bible was written as an agenda to project the Roman Empire into the 21 Century in the guise of the Holy Roman Empire (Catholicism).
- wholeheartedly agreed

RedeZra - now the controllers are trying to sell us the idea that humanity is genetically engineered by aliens so why bother debunking the Bible when the PTB has already done it
- no, the PTB are doing everything in their power to create a 'media vacuum' around Lloyd Pye. What they are pushing is 'evolution', but only as a counter balance to 'Religion'. Neither one is correct, that is the beauty, classic conquer and divide with no end in sight.

What Lloyd Pye is doing isn't an ultimate answer either (as it doesn't explain the origin of our genetic engineers, but it is the direction we should be going in... It will tie in many loose ends that I wish he would go back to and articulate more comprehensively.

Note: One fact totally counter to evolution: it has been stated that 99% of every kind of living species that ever existed on our planet is extinct, then combine that with one term that Lloyd says to throw in their face: Cambrian Explosion

RedeZra - by the way what shall we say to the millions who have met and been healed and helped by Jesus today ?
- this is a good question, it points to a real phenomena, something about humans being suppressed by other humans, this should be pursued - and should lead to consciousness and quantum physics.

write4change - The bottom line belief of objectivism is that if everybody takes care of themself then no one would have to take care of any one else. This would work if everyone was born equal but they not. Not even equal opportunity.
- I agree, but it could be tweaked by adding that once one has achieve self sufficiency, there should be a moral obligation to provide the same real opportunity to others. It's a mis-perception and a myth that anyone is self made, operating in a vacuum.

write4change - Our economy is going down the tubes because the banksters were able to convince people that free market was god -- even though all the proof exists that the free market never existed and capitalism only works with checks and balances and so it goes.
- I would have to say my understanding is that they removed all the checks and balances that were created after the great depression in order to purposedly create this fascist economy (oligarchy) that exists today. re: G Edward Griffith material. People are just waking up and starting to notice, the Glass-Stiegal act is just one of dozens removed since the depression.

Capitalism isn't the be all and end all, I agree, the economic model I learned about "profit is all" was pitifully superficial... again I believe the diversion is a cover, because my belief is that the true nature of what exists today is all operated on a system of Trusts, and the study of true, non statutory Trust Law is very, very difficult to find... (it is hidden by definition of how private Trusts operate) And what do all the Elites operate... private Trusts... 'statutory law' is for rest of us. (but this is a whole other topic, re: see some of my other posts)

jagman - Satan is a liar and a master at manipulating the masses...
- amen

observer - You will clearly see that Yashu was telling us that we all can be 'Sons of God'. You will also gain a clear understanding that Yashu was excluding himself from the god of the Old Testament, Jehovah/Yahweh whom Yashu referred to as the Devil.
- agreed, the idea of a trinity is patently paganisnistic, and absurdly to the point of being such a hidden message, that the word 'trinity' wasn't even printed once in the many versions of the bible that I have word searched (weird or what?) - now that has to mean something... re: Yahweh as Devil, still looking into ond... Michael S Heiser, who is a self professed 'Christian' and scholar, claims that the Bible does in fact point to some heirarchy of 'Gods'... so much we simply don't know

RedeZra - Gnosticism could not cope with God of the Old Testament
- always wondered about this GOTOT, he sounds more like a deity, then the creator of the entire universe, talking to the people beating his chest mightly (like what has he got to prove?), supplying magic staffs, weather effects, parting waters and creating pillars of fire, stone tablets, huge smoke clouds on mountain tops, manna, always advising which country to attack next, yet whatever he was doing wasn't impressing these people all that much, because no matter how many miracles he pulled they always seemed to fall back into paganism and sin... I don't even think we would be that pathetic, if we could experience any one of these things today.

panopticon - I'd like to thank write4change for providing a personal insight into the members of Rand's inner circle.
- I second that, it certainly adds some grit

jagman - I was just a man at the end of his rope who on bended knee who asked God for help. Sigma, I would encourage you to examine all the possiblities. Luke 11:9 - So I say to you: Keep asking, and it will be given you. Keep searching, and you will find. Keep knocking, and the door will be opened for you
- amen to that, I do think the Bible was trying to give us some truth, but I don't like sh** in my salad, even if you dried it up and sprinkled it on as 'black pepper', if you know what I mean, that's why I think verses like this are definitely pointing to something, but it may have to do with our own hidden powers. ie. we can't deny these 'miracles' happen in many cultures and religions, not just ours - re: books like "The Power of Our Subconscious Mind" "Science of Mind" "What The Bleep Do We Know" etc... There is no question that some power is created when we focus our mind, body and spirit to something... this needs more study...

nosgib - A Cure for Cancer and proof of God. The cure is n 60 www.revelations.iinet.net.au The Record is a extrapolation of my journey. (also I have been told that the (old) testament takes precedent over the (new) So carrying on from Exodus and proving creation is one big call (thus it requires a Cure to do so). Regards.
- there are so many cures for cancer it's a sad, sick pathetic joke given the number of people that die every day from it. Just another reason why some should fly a nuke into whatever building that symbolizes all the laws that support the Medical institutions, the FDA and the Pharmaceuticals that are murdering all these people for a lousy buck. (secret societies guaranteed)

panopticon - What I would point out is that Constantine first stopped religious persectution and then re-instigated it (from memory a decade later) to focus on the religions and cults that were very powerful at the time and at odds with both Christianity and his rule as Emperor.
- perfect example - they stopped killing people for being Christian after they 'took over' and simply started killing people for not falling under their 'brand' it is well known the Roman Vatican has probably killed more other non-Catholic Christians then any other institution in the history of the world (wake up call)

panopticon - 'The original painting of the last supper was painted 2000 years prior to the event happening'
- that would be 4,000 BC! haha I know, I know... just threw it in there... oops I even got that wrong - meant 2,000 BC double LOL

ghostrider - every culture looks to someone else to save them... they never look in the mirror .
- Ah, but what is the 'mirror'? (of our consciousness for example) you have hit on something bigger then you may know, I think you are on to something...

observer - The archeological record indicates that a regular pattern of rising and declining magnetosphere intensities are linked to an historic documentation of pole shifts. Right now the intensity of the magnetosphere is declining, and the poles are wandering at an unusual rate, see here.
- pole shift! although I wish it weren't true, how would we survive another?

observer

2nd June 2012, 20:49

You won't get any argument from me regarding the Masonic Order, sigma6. I have spent the best part of my life denouncing these reptiles. I could send you down a rabbit hole that would take you years to find the depths of this obscenity. Suffice it to say, there is an hyperdimensional aspect to the Secret Society phenomenon that traces back to the beginning of our known civilization - and then further.

"Everything we think we know is a lie".

As far as pole-shifts are concerned, life, in one form or another, has survived the shifting poles over the millions of years this planet has endured them. I don't suppose there will be much change to this effect.

A mass extinction is one way of cleansing the planet of the surface irritation known as man.

Imagine how a mass extinction would be sort of a way to escape the traps the Archon/Reptiles have set-up to keep our eternal souls imprisoned here on this Reptilian Soul Farm.

Click-on forwarding arrow to see content of text

If you are clever enough, you just might get past those ol'Reptilian Prison Wardens while they are so busy trapping all those loose souls that just resulted from a mass extinction.

Ascension is just a telepathically implanted buzz-word for extinction.

heyokah

2nd June 2012, 22:04

My dear observer, you brought me in this gloomy frame of mind :wink:

sjWMtQcNJXI

Sorry, gentlemen.

Back to topic :rolleyes:

sigma6

3rd June 2012, 00:28

I love it... touche... and to continue our musical interlude, here's some more Sarah...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PPC7s2_Qh8

Where is the influence of the Roman Vatican today?
We could dedicate an entire forum to Roman Fascist Imperialism, it would take a lifetime to encapsulate the depth of their system, it's 'invisible' because we were born into it, as our parents, and their parents... it permeates Law, Science, Banking, Pharmacy, Military, Education, Economics, Media, Energy, History, Religion... There is a reason why we eat fake food, watch fake news, in between fake commercials, witnessed a fake moon landing, banks make us pay 300% interest for our own credit with a fake mortgage, soldiers killing innocent women and children for oil companies, brainwashed according to a false creed, we pray to a false God, controlled by a crime syndicate hiding behind a fake Government. People taking fake 'medicine' that kills millions annually. Did anyone know the head of the FBI was run by a closet homosexual, who wouldn't allow anyone in his dept to use the word 'mafia'? (Evidence of Revision) and that was in the 40s!)

We are all manipulated to some degree despite how comfortable some have made themselves in this prison. We are living so far below our actual economic and spiritual potential. All to support a hidden elite 1% of the population. Taxes and inflation isn't the half of it.

If people could see the big picture, there would be a bloody revolution. But wait! according to Benjamin Fulford there is! 140 countries against what is essentially the Trilateral Commission, aka Vatican Anglo-American Empire, aka NWO, aka Murder Inc, aka the Great Harlot, aka the Bride, aka Beatrix Kiddo, aka Black Mamba... oops scratch off those last three, was getting carried away there...

Here's an example how they 'orchestrate' the fake economy as part of their economic 'herding'..
New jobs report: unemployment rises and 70% chance of recession
https://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/new-jobs-report-unemployment-rises-and-70-chance-of-recession/
James Pethokoukis of the American Enterprise Institute explains:
Now isn't that the kicker? did you catch that punch line at the end? there's our problem! were not drilling enough oil wells! It's not a bunch of global elites controlling the government (for our benefit) holding back 6,000 patents that would be able to produce enough free energy for the entire planet and free people from slavery that is holding us back, NO... it's... those darn environmentalists!... we oughta do something about it... I'm calling my government representative right now!...

Oh, and one final thought

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qRjQPth7fmA

Hervé

3rd June 2012, 01:16

Little bits of iron in favor of the meteorite hypothesis:

http://alaskareport.com/news28/ned71119_mammoth_tusks.htm

March 5, 2008
The mystery of mammoth tusks with iron fillings

By Ned Rozell
A giant meteor may have exploded over Alaska thousands of years ago, shooting out metal fragments like buckshot, some of which embedded in the tusks of woolly mammoths and the horns of bison. Simultaneously, a large chunk of the meteor hit Alaska south of Allakaket, sending up a dust cloud that blacked out the sun over the entire state and surrounding areas, killing most of the life in the area.
http://alaskareport.com/images31/mammoth_tusks.jpg
Embedded iron particles surrounded by carbonized rings in the outer layer of a mammoth tusk from Alaska. Inset photo shows how an object ripped through the tusk. Image courtesy Richard Firestone.

Such is the scenario envisioned by Rick Firestone, a staff scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California. Firestone and his colleagues have found mammoth tusks and a bison skull with nickel-rich iron particles in them on one side, suggesting the metal fragments all came from the same direction.

Firestone's theory emerged when his colleague, Alan West of Dewey, Arizona, saw at a Phoenix gem and mineral show a mammoth tusk peppered with tiny bits of metal. Intrigued, West and Firestone looked at tusks owned by the same dealer in Calgary. By passing a magnet over mammoth tusks in Calgary, Firestone and West found seven mammoth tusks collected somewhere near the Yukon River and a bison skull from Siberia that had tiny iron fragments burned into them. The fragments also contained nickel.

"One in 1,000 tusks had this material in it," Firestone said.

Firestone also thinks he may have found the divot left by the ancient meteorite, an impact crater that is now occupied by a round body of water named Sithylemenkat Lake in the upper Kanuti River drainage.

"The creeks coming out of the lake are very rich in nickel," Firestone said, referring to a metal associated with meteorites. "And the shape is consistent with a crater from a meteorite that may have been a half a kilometer in diameter.

***************************************************************
Alaskanews comment:

A meteorite that big would have torched anything within a 100-mile radius and could have buried the mammoths farther away from the crater, preserving the tusks struck by metal fragments. Firestone said the dust kicked up by the meteor would have eliminated any mammoths that survived the meteor's hit.

"There was probably 10,000 years with no mammoths," he said, adding that other mammoths eventually migrated back into Alaska.

Dale Guthrie, one of Alaska's few experts on mammoths, said he found Firestone's theory interesting, but Alaska scientists who know about impact craters think he is probably off on his guess that Sithylemenkat Lake is the place where a giant meteorite struck about 35,000 years ago (the approximate age of the mammoth tusks). Scientists have confirmed only one impact crater in Alaska.

Buck Sharpton, an expert on impact craters and the Vice Chancellor for Research at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, said the lake would have to be much older than 35,000 years because it has no rim associated with more recent impact craters and doesn't look to him like an impact crater. He thinks the iron bits in the tusks could be cavities filled by "being immersed for millennia in porous sedimentary fill through which iron-rich water percolated."

As for Sithylemenkat Lake, Gordon Herreid didn't mention a possible meteorite impact when he wrote a 1969 geology report on the lake for the state (which ordered the investigation because of possible nickel deposits there). Jan Cannon wrote in the journal Science in 1977 that the lake looked to be the only visible impact crater in Alaska based on a study of Landsat satellite images. One year later, William Patton of the U.S. Geological Survey argued in Science that glaciers, rather than a meteorite, created the lake.
© AlaskaReport News
********************************************************************

My comment:

Why would that presumed crater impact necessarily be in Alaska since the bison's skull is from Siberia?

panopticon

3rd June 2012, 02:37

G'day Sigma6,

Take a deep breath my friend.

Firstly thanks for the reply -- I think...

I'd just like to point out that frozen Mammoths have also been found in Alaska and the Yukon region. It is the condition of the Siberian mammoths corpse that made them unique. Also, mammoth tusks have been found all over the place so it is the stable conditions (ie permafrost) of their entombment that preserved them.

Could you direct me to an article on the WW2 plane and the ice core as I found that very interesting and I can't find it elsewhere.

Oh, and yes I know that carbon-dating is sometimes questioned as to its validity for an argument. My point was to express my personal realisation that it may not have been a single event but that it could equally have been a large number of isolated cases.

I don't deny the possibility of pole shifts (both magnetic [well known and provable] and physical) and I personally have no problem with the case for evolutionary theory (nor for the case for non-human intervention in that evolution).

Yes I know about Hoover, the FBI, cross dressing and the mafia. Doesn't everyone?

It seems like you've got a whole lot of information and want to scream it to the mountain tops.
Please remember that you are not alone and many here (at Avalon) have information that could reinforce and/or add clarity to yours.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

panopticon

3rd June 2012, 02:59

G'day Amzer Zo,

Thanks for finding the article, it's really interesting.
So would this meteor (I am unsure as to how big the debris field is estimated at nor the size of the "meteor") be able to create the kind of "atmospheric sink hole" you were mentioning?
Maybe it exploded over head (this isn't unusual either) resulting in the shrapnel.
Also is there a layer in the geological record showing this?

I know you have more expertise in this than I do so am curious as to what you think.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Hervé

3rd June 2012, 03:58

I was looking for something to the effect that an overhesd meteorite explosion would create a vortex plume that I read somewhere but cannot locate for now. However I found this, going along with the Electic Universe:

Feb 03, 2006
The Tunguska Event (2) (http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060203tunguska2.htm)
An Explanation that Works
It seems that scientific investigation has left the mystery of the fiery Tunguska explosion unresolved. From the beginning, the debate excluded the electric force, the one force that allows for a unified solution and excludes no field of evidence.

[...]

Reports of strange weather before the event.
In an electric solar system electric currents flowing between the solar plasma and the planets are the primary factors driving Earth’s weather patterns. In fact, the most violent winds occur on planets most distant from the Sun, where solar heating is negligible. Ice-cold Neptune, the gas giant farthest from Earth, has 2,000 km/h winds! When seen in these terms, it becomes clear that an electrical disturbance might be evident in the form of unusual weather days before the arrival of a comet.

[...]

Global atmospheric pressure pulse.
The Earth’s atmosphere forms the dielectric of a capacitor with the two "plates" of the capacitor being the Earth and the ionosphere (http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/arch/040927earth-capacitor.htm). The comet's electrical disturbance will cause pressure pulses in the atmosphere before the comet arrives as well as upon arrival. It is noteworthy in this respect that a giant ionospheric disturbance accompanied the magnitude 9.3 Sumatra earthquake of 26 December 2004. The ionosphere moved up and down by about 40 km (http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2006/2005GL023963.shtml)! And changes in the ionosphere have been registered 5 to 10 days before an earthquake (http://home.iitk.ac.in/~ramesh/Ruzhin%20Yu.Ya.doc).

************************************************************

So, if the pressure on the atmosphere is adequate to push it away, then there is no oxygen to start/maintain tree/vegetation fires and the ground is opened to "space deep freeze."

I'll keep looking for that vortex thing.

panopticon

3rd June 2012, 06:46

G'day Again Amzer Zo,

I was having a look for information on the Sithylemenkat Lake and came across this article that may be of interest:
Meteorite Impact Craters (http://www2.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/711.html)

Here's one to do with the mammoths that was presented at the 2008 Tunguska conference:
Micrometeorite Impacts in Beringian Mammoth Tusks and a Bison Skull (http://www.scribd.com/rbfirestone/d/18982808-TunguskaConferenceA4Hagstrum).

I'm finding this really interesting. Thanks to everyone who is participating.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

PS I thought Tunguska was all Tesla's fault... :bounce:

sigma6

3rd June 2012, 16:44

Panopticon, hope I wasn't overly projecting on you, was just writing based on what I see and hear and read and the things that jump out at me as a result. Still going through your links but just keeping the speculation open on these Mammoths as I do find it quite interesting... I don't see anything as conclusive or definitive. I do bias towards a pole shift, so I just put that out there for reference...

I'd just like to point out that frozen Mammoths have also been found in Alaska and the Yukon region. Well I would consider that close enough to Siberia, if you look at it from above without borders it could easily fit within a quadrant of the globe, but yes I take your meaning, they were found still intact because of the cold climes, granted. I think the focus is the vegetation issue, which relates to the speed of death. And also the propensity of correlation between samples, ie. I don't think it is typical or probable that every Mammoth found should have just been grazing with food in it's mouth seconds before it's death. Also even supposing there are individual deaths at different times would make finding that particular set of circumstances even more unlikely.

For example, that would be like a homocide detective finding several bodies, from different locations and times but each one having a half melted ice cream in their hand. This would pose a question regarding probability of such an event being statistically non-random, and if so, would in turn lead to a search for an extraneous variable, then correlation and speculation as to causal relationship, etc. But I haven't looked at enough info yet... so everything is speculation to me! or sometimes one is able to find 'logical proofs' (can save time)

Could you direct me to an article on the WW2 plane and the ice core as I found that very interesting and I can't find it elsewhere.
Speaking of which, Kent Hovind has YouTube seminars about the age of the earth and takes a creationist interpretation opposing evolution, has a 'literal' take on the Bible (or as literal as one can get) But interprets the days of creation being a 1000 years and bases his premises on that. He has interesting arguments regarding various subjects ie. archaeological info, dinosaurs, etc. I came across the WWII plane in one of those. It had to do with a study extrapolating the age of ice in core samples by counting layers within the cores and correlating that with seasonal changes, simple enough. Then, apparently the ice melted and the plane was exposed. I guess the point is had the plane not turned up, there probably would have been no way to convince these 'scientists' that their calculations and theory were incorrect. Now that is a logical proof! In this case it was also an example that breaks down this 'cartoon' image we have about scientists and their 'theories'... almost as bad as the blind faith exhibited in following religious figures - fallible humans, they rationalize, deny, have biases, etc. just like anyone else. Anyhow I will see if I can pick out which one I watched, I remember it was quite long.

Oh, and yes I know that carbon-dating is sometimes questioned as to its validity for an argument. My point was to express my personal realisation that it may not have been a single event but that it could equally have been a large number of isolated cases. Again I was trying to point out the possibility of a broader pattern, as described above. But also I am just questioning all of these rather complex analyses, that when knowledge becomes so specialized a majority has to rely on a very limited number to interpret information, we all know what usually happens, pointing this out as another example of where we could be more critical when looking at information presented.

Yes I know about Hoover, the FBI, cross dressing and the mafia. Doesn't everyone?
And finally I didn't know everyone was onto Hoover, now we just need people to draw the implication of where their tax dollars are going, and do the right thing. Imagine if everyone just stopped supporting such organized crime, would bring the rats out of the woodwork, people would be ousted within weeks, now that would be a dream worth voting for.

cloud9

3rd June 2012, 18:01

Hervé

3rd June 2012, 20:07

Hi Panopticon,

Good find with the linked article.

Found the article I had in mind re vortex but it's a computer modelling of an air burst and which wouldn't work for a vortex of "deep space" reaching the ground... would work for fire and brimstones though... :)

http://craterhunter.wordpress.com/the-planetary-scaring-of-the-younger-dryas-impact-event/a-thermal-airburst-impact-structure/

On another hand, who would have thought that Europe's "Dark Ages" were the results of European countries being pumelled with meteorite showers and the skies darken with cometary dust...

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/227226-The-Dark-Ages-Were-They-Darker-Than-We-Imagined-

panopticon

4th June 2012, 00:08

G'day All,

Thanks to Amzer Zo for the links and Sigma6 for the information.
Yes, I agree that we need to look at the mammoth freezing from a number of perspectives and I am open to all ideas in relation to that.
I look at evidence and then come to a personal conclusion based on that evidence, others can look at the same evidence and come to a different one and I have no problem with that.

It occurred to me in the wee small hours of the morning that part of the problem some may be having with the mammoth freezing story is the intact vegetation found in the stomach of the mammoths.
I would point out, apologies to those who already know this, that herbivores have a different digestive tract to carnivores.

From an article (http://www.andrews-elephants.com/elephant-anatomy.html) (taken at random in a search) on the elephants digestive tract (as it's the closest to the mammoth):

The muscular oesophagus ushers the food into the stomach, which acts more as a storage sac as not much digestion takes place in this organ. The elephant’s stomach is cylindrical in shape and the middle of the organ is particularly glandular. From here, food is ushered into the extraordinarily long intestines. The intestine of an elephant can reach up to 19 metres in length!

The intestine is where most of the digestion of the vegetative diet takes place. At the point at which the small intestine meets the large one (or colon), bacteria aids in the fermentative digestion of the cellulose (typical of this diet). This location is called the caecum and is particularly rich in blood vessels. The caecum is divided into many smaller sacs and the products of digestion are absorbed through its relatively thin walls.

Because the elephant only digests and makes good use of 40% of its intake, the intestine is also instrumental in the formation or faeces and the efficient absorption of water. The size of the faeces is often used to determine the age of the elephant as it retains the shape formed by the walls of the rectum, indicating its size.

Because the elephant absorbs so few nutrients from the food it ingests, the dung is rich in nutrients and solid food matter. Therefore, it is beneficial to many other animals, as they are able to feed off of the relatively untouched constituents of the faeces. Common beneficiaries include dung beetles and many species of bird.

And from here (http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/info-books/elephants/adaptations.htm):

Elephants are non-ruminants, meaning the food is fermented after it has been digested by the stomach (hindgut fermentation), and is pushed through the gut at a rapid rate. Because the contact time the fermented food has with the absorptive surfaces of the intestines is limited, non-ruminants are not able to extract as many nutrients from the food. These animals compensate the nutrient loss by eating greater quantities and are capable of eating lower quality vegetation.
I apologise to everyone who already knew this but thought it worthwhile to point out as it has a bearing on understanding that the contents of a mammoth's stomach would not have started to break down, that happens later in their digestive cycle (the stomach acts more like a storage container), and that most of the intestinal content would be fibrous and full of seeds (ie only partly broken down).
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Addendum:

I don't think it is typical or probable that every Mammoth found should have just been grazing with food in it's mouth seconds before it's death. Also even supposing there are individual deaths at different times would make finding that particular set of circumstances even more unlikely.

Large herbivores eat almost constantly to be able to extract sufficient nutrients from their low nutrient food sources.
They walk along and graze constantly.
So the likelihood that a mammoth at any given time would have food in its mouth is, in my opinion, fairly high.

Hervé

4th June 2012, 01:36

Still no data about the salad but more about the meat:

From: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2725/prehistoric-its-whats-for-dinner

According to Richard Stone's book Mammoth (2001), Russian zoologist Alexei Tikhonov (who figures in articles about the recent Siberian find) once tried a bite and said "it was awful. It tasted like meat left too long in a freezer."

With this in mind, it makes sense that the most legit claims of dining on prehistoric meat don't involve big juicy sirloins but rather the odd edible chunk or two. And so to dad's contention, Garth: The Explorers Club, a venerable association of heavy-duty scientists and adventure hounds, is best known to the public for its Annual Dinner, when members converge on New York, break out the finery, and tuck into a menu stocked with thrill-seeker fare - tarantula, scorpion, and the like. According to club archivist Clare Flemming, the 1951 fete did in fact feature mammoth, but only as part of the preprandial smorgasbord, not as an entree; a review of the event in the Christian Science Monitor describes a morsel of meat supposedly recovered from Akutan Island, in the Aleutians. (Other delicacies included green turtle soup, giant Pacific spider crabs, bison steak, and cheese straws, which if nothing else suggests that in 1950s Manhattan cheese straws were considered a lot more exotic than they are today.) Flemming also found correspondence in which paleontologist Coleman Williams mentions (apropos of his tenure on the club's dinner committee) preparing a dish from balls of marrow found in the bones of a 50,000-year-old horse.

One of the best-documented accounts of a prehistoric meal comes at the end of Frozen Fauna of the Mammoth Steppe (1990), by Alaska zoology professor Dale Guthrie. After successfully unearthing and preserving "Blue Babe," a 36,000-year-old steppe bison found near Fairbanks in 1979, Guthrie's team celebrates by simmering some leftover flesh from Babe's neck "in a pot of stock and vegetables." The author reports that "the meat was well aged but still a little tough, and it gave the stew a strong Pleistocene aroma." Now, I'm all for scientific esprit de corps, and I'm not by nature an incurious sort, but I'll say right now I don't see the appeal. Let's keep it simple: frozen meat from tundra = specimen; frozen meat from freezer = dinner. Study the mammoths and eat the burgers, and anyone who craves that great prehistoric taste can wash 'em down with Tab.
— Cecil Adams

panopticon

4th June 2012, 02:13

Still no data about the salad but more about the meat:

From: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2725/prehistoric-its-whats-for-dinner

After successfully unearthing and preserving "Blue Babe," a 36,000-year-old steppe bison found near Fairbanks in 1979, Guthrie's team celebrates by simmering some leftover flesh from Babe's neck "in a pot of stock and vegetables." The author reports that "the meat was well aged but still a little tough, and it gave the stew a strong Pleistocene aroma." Now, I'm all for scientific esprit de corps, and I'm not by nature an incurious sort, but I'll say right now I don't see the appeal. Let's keep it simple: frozen meat from tundra = specimen; frozen meat from freezer = dinner. Study the mammoths and eat the burgers, and anyone who craves that great prehistoric taste can wash 'em down with Tab.
— Cecil Adams
Thanks for that Amzer Zo,

I laughed long at hard at the comment: "the meat was well aged but still a little tough, and it gave the stew a strong Pleistocene aroma."
At least the sense of humour remains intact!
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

panopticon

4th June 2012, 02:50

I found an article in relation to the Hovind claims (I haven't watched his youtube clip yet) about a squadron in Greenland and ice core samples, that Sigma6 bought up, and it appears Hovind made an assumption based on a faulty premise. He assumed that all ice cores are created at the same rate in different geographical locations while another writer also pointed out that he disregarding the fact that the metal of the planes would heat quicker than that of the ice and gradually melt the snow/ice (at least the initial surface snow/ice) and sink.

Here is part of an article (http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf), by Paul H. Seely, published by the American Scientific Affiliation (http://network.asa3.org/) (who call themselves 'A Network Of Christians In The Sciences') to which I have highlighted some passages:

###############

The Lost Squadron Argument
In July of 1942, six pursuit planes (P-38’s) and two bombers (B-17’s) crash-landed on the Greenland ice cap. By 1990 they were found under c. 250 feet of ice and snow, which depth corresponds to c. 250 years of accumulation for the GISP2 ice core. In his 1992 paper, Larry Vardiman mentioned the surprising burial depth of the Lost Squadron planes, but he admitted that their depth of burial could not be simplistically used as evidence that the ice cores are being mis-dated. Some young-earthers have not been as wise and have argued from the depth of the WWII planes to the rejection of the age of the ice cores.

Carl Wieland wrote a short paper in 1997 arguing on the basis of the depth of the WWII airplanes that the 3,000 meter long GRIP ice core “would only represent some 2000 years of accumulation.” Allowing for some compression of lower layers and the greater snowfall for a few centuries after the Flood, he concluded, “There is ample time in the 4,000 or so years since Noah’s day for the existing amounts of ice to have built up.”

Kent Hovind, who has a four-minute tape on the Internet about ice cores, calculated that the WWII planes were covered at the rate of c. 5½ feet of snow/year. He then said that if you divide that rate into the 10,000 foot ice core, you only get 1,824 years; so “4400 is a really reasonable assumption.” Hovind also telephoned Bob Cardin, who was one of the main people who raised one of the planes to the surface and asked him if he had noticed how many layers there were in the ice in the hole made to excavate the plane. Cardin answered off the cuff, “Many hundreds of them.” On the basis of this answer, Hovind concluded that the lines in the ice cores are not summer/winter, but warm/cold lines and that thirty of them could be made in a single year.

Two experienced glaciologists informed me that Hovind is largely correct about the “hundreds” of lines in the hole dug to remove the WW2 planes. They both said that the area where the planes landed is a relatively warm area because of its lower, southern elevation, and several melt layers can be formed every year in regions like that which would appear as layers in the hole. Add to these melt layers the actual annual layers, which near the top show up as several lines within the space of a few inches, and you can have an off the cuff estimate of “hundreds of lines.” One can understand Hovind’s confusion.

But let’s make this perfectly clear: The 110,000 layers of the GISP2 ice core are not due to melting. They are definitely not melt layers. Even if melting had occurred more often in the past, layers due to melting are readily recognized and would certainly not be counted as annual.

This leaves the question: How could some 250 feet of snow in the area of GISP2 cover a period of c. 250 years while 250 feet of snow in the area of the Lost Squadron planes only covers c. 50 years? In Richard Alley’s book, The Two Mile Time Machine, he says he is often asked this question. The answer is: “The World War II planes landed in one of the regions of Greenland where snow accumulates fastest.” And in answer to the question: Did anyone ever figure out why the Lost Squadron planes were buried so much deeper than expected? Bob Cardin told me that it was because the average snow accumulation in that area is c. 7 feet/year (7 x 50 = 350 feet deep). If you allow for some compression, it is easy to understand how the planes got buried 250 feet deep.

So, the area in which the Lost Squadron landed, which is southern Greenland c. 10 miles from the east coast, with its high rate of snow accumulation (c. 7 feet/year) vs. the area of GISP2 in central Greenland with its comparatively low rate of snow accumulation (1 foot or so/year) is why 250 feet of snow represents just 50 years for the Lost Squadron but around 250 years for the GISP2 ice core. And, of course, as one goes down the core, the snow/ice is compressed more and more so that each foot of ice represents greater and greater lengths of time.

In conclusion we see that creation science has offered little more than speculation as evidence to disprove the validity of the dating of the GISP2 ice core. Opposing this speculation is solid empirical evidence that the layers of hoar frost, dust, and electrical conductivity are seasonal, not from storms, melting, different climate conditions or any other such supposition. Although one of the methods of counting annual layers may fail on rare occasions, the other methods fill in and sustain the accuracy of the counting; and the three methods regularly and repeatedly corroborate each other. In addition, the validity of the dating is established by the fact that there is a dovetailing of the dates of GISP2 with the dates of solar cycles, sea cores, tree rings, volcanic events, and more. The GISP2 ice core thus provides clear, scientific proof that there was no global flood any time in the last 40,000 to 110,000 years.

###############

So it appears that Hovind asked Cardin (who was at the WW2 plane site) if there were layers in the ice, to which Cardin said "Many hundreds of them". Hovind then said well that means that "all the ice core data is wrong" without any understanding of how the ice cores are dated (it doesn't just involve counting layers) or knowing the difference between accumulative (yearly) layers and melt layers...

I also found a 3 part article series by Seely titled 'The Flood: Not Global, Barely Local, Mostly Theological (http://biologos.org/blog/series/the-flood-not-global-barely-local-mostly-theological)' (which looks like an interesting read) in which he states (bolding added):

When tells in the Near East which date from 5000 to the time of Abraham are examined, no evidence of a global flood is found. In fact, overlapping layers of occupation, one on top of the other, often with the remains of mud-brick houses in place, are found intact spanning the entire period. No matter what specific date one might put on the flood after 5000 B.C., there were sites in the Near East at that date where people lived and remained undisturbed by any serious flood. In other words, not only is there no evidence of a flood that covered the Near East, there is archaeological evidence that no flood covered the Near East between 5000 and the time of Abraham.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

panopticon

4th June 2012, 03:10

G'day All,

Here's the Hovind video I think Sigma6 was referring too:

ue8rVSmrmZ0
I agree with his statement: 'Ignorance can be fixed. Stupid is forever!'
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

sigma6

4th June 2012, 04:32

hindsight is 20/20...

he certainly did expose that their ability to measure these things isn't as tight as they were initially presenting, it does sound a tad like there is some 'back pedaling' after the fact, perhaps even some potentially huge rationalizations? But I leave that to others to decide.

Meanwhile the other side of it is Michael Cremo's work in which he hypothesizes that there is plenty of archaeological evidence to show that man has been around for hundreds of thousands of years, maybe even millions? And I think both Lloyd Pye and Gregg Braden make reference to genetic studies that say based on mitochodria DNA analysis that the fusion of the second and third genes was inbetween 150 thousand and 250 thousand years ago.

lots of different theories out there... amazing amount of research on your part panoptican, well done man!

panopticon

4th June 2012, 06:37

G'day Sigma6,

I am intrigued by the mammoth "flash freeze" story and its origins.

One reason I am a member of Avalon is so I can get others input into subjects that may not necessarily be easy to find out about (1615 heads are better than one) and also because there are many very knowledgeable people at Avalon who can point me in more directions than I might otherwise look.
That being said I always research so I can draw an informed conclusion for myself.

The question of whether humanity has existed longer than the official record is a bit of a rabbit hole...

While I find out of place artefacts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-place_artifact) (like the 'Antikythera Mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism)') fascinating I really don't have the time to wander down that path. I do enjoy reading about them (http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/ooparts.htm) though.

One thing I try to remember (and the reason I chose the panopticon user name) is that there are always biases in place (that both define and confine the various discursive processes). I ask myself the "who, what, where, when, how and why" questions so as to be aware of the basic pre-suppositions (both others and my own) that are "bought to the table".

If nothing else I try to remain open to new ideas and understandings because history has taught us that what is "fringe" today is "cutting edge" tomorrow.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

sigma6

4th June 2012, 15:26

All considering, as subtle and complex as things may get, my ultimate goal is to seek out simplification, to distill general principles from particular situations, that said

"an ice cream in the hand is worth two mammoths in the drift"... :rolleyes:

In any event, I was wondering if anyone could help me find a video online, it had that famous researcher and tv personality; Simcha Jacobovici as host, and it was either a History Channel or a Decoding the Past special or something like that, it was an archeological interpretation of Emperor Constantine, discussing the symbology in the buildings, and the artwork, describing what he was really up to when he converted to Christianity, has anyone heard of it? I can't seem to find it again, and I really wanted to post it here...

heyokah

4th June 2012, 16:54

All considering, as subtle and complex as things may get, my ultimate goal is to seek out simplification, to distill general principles from particular situations, that said

"an ice cream in the hand is worth two mammoths in the drift"... :rolleyes:

In any event, I was wondering if anyone could help me find a video online, it had that famous researcher and tv personality; Simcha Jacobovici as host, and it was either a History Channel or a Decoding the Past special or something like that, it was an archeological interpretation of Emperor Constantine, discussing the symbology in the buildings, and the artwork, describing what he was really up to when he converted to Christianity, have anyone heard it? I can't seem to find it again, and I really wanted to post it here...

Are you perhaps looking for "Secrets of Christianity/Decoding the Ancients ".
6 x 1 hour • Documentary Series • Produced in association with: History Television Canada and The History Channel US • Production year: 2010

http://www.apltd.ca/films/display/15

Secrets of Christianity: Selling Christianity

WD0eSqFJ7J4

sigma6

5th June 2012, 14:25

Yes, yes, yes! Thank you [sister]! another reminder of why we gather together and network... lol I couldn't find it for the life of me, was searching christianity constantine simcha decoding the past, etc... well done.

heyokah

5th June 2012, 16:04

You're welcome.
Hope you won't be embarrassed if I tell you I'm a woman. :)
However, my nickname is Watson. LOL

observer

6th June 2012, 01:10

[....snip]
Are you perhaps looking for "Secrets of Christianity/Decoding the Ancients ".
6 x 1 hour • Documentary Series • Produced in association with: History Television Canada and The History Channel US • Production year: 2010

http://www.apltd.ca/films/display/15

Secrets of Christianity: Selling Christianity

WD0eSqFJ7J4

Thank you so much, heyokah, for finding this series. I've only had the time to view "Selling Christianity", so far. I can recall seeing this Simcha Jacobovici in some other documentary, however, it has been over a year ago. I'm certain one of those you listed was the one I've seen.

This "Selling Christianity" is highly informative regarding the role Emperor Constantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_and_Christianity) (Saint Constantine in the Orthodox Catholic Church) played in the creation of Trinity Christianity. One can clearly see how the work of Constantine was foundational in the nearly 2000 year continuous agenda to give The Holy Roman Emperor, The Pope, the authority to call himself the 'Vicar of Christ' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicar_of_Christ), and the "Vicar of God".

It has to be apparent to anyone researching this agenda that this entire Trinity fantasy is such a farce. The true heresy is the nearly two thousand years of obscene pain and suffering this Trinity Religion has wracked on Humanity. Very few Fundamentalist Christians can see this dichotomy.

One must understand, the work of Constantine was at the end of a nearly three hundred year span of time in which a continuous agenda was perpetrated by a ruling elite group known as The Piso, in which most Nazorean Christians (http://essenes.net/index.php?Itemid=841&id=591&option=com_content&task=view)(A.K.A., Essene Christians/Gnostic Christians) were purged from the planet in lieu of the Roman version of Christianity - Trinity Christianity. This is all from evidence that was not included in the "Selling Christianity" episode.
See:

Click-on forwarding arrow to view content of comment

Even without seeing the entire "Secrets of Christianity" series, I would highly recommend for our friend RedeZra to view (if nothing more) the "Selling Christianity" video. It goes such a long way in documenting the evidence I've been trying to show him for so long now.

panopticon

6th June 2012, 05:45

Excavating The Empty Tomb, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt

XFmeDfsv4j8

G'day All,

Just finished listening to the OP video and will be using it in future as a means of illustrating how the various Gospels of the NT made use of the literary forms and norms of the period. I had come across this information before but the way it is described in the video is excellent and was well worth the listen.

The detailed analysis of Mark was very well done as was the research and references used. I am glad he used some the early "Church Fathers" and historians as references and much of my personal research, for what it's worthy, can confirm his.

I also appreciated that he was building a case and not saying "this is how it is" as that gave him more "authenticity" and increased his "believability" as far as I was concerned. He just stated the facts and pointed at their ramifications. Very well done.

Thanks to Sigma6 for bringing this video to our attention.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

RedeZra

6th June 2012, 17:30

Gnosticism could not cope with God of the Old Testament

who once flooded the whole earth incinerated Sodom and Gomorrah made war against the Nephilim in Canaan and gave mankind the Ten Commandments writ in stone

The god that flooded earth and all the rest of nasty stuff is not my God.... it's not GOD!

well you must remember that the people had begun to multiply into the millions and make a lot of noise

even on the sabbath

also some of His angels just had to make out with women and beget huge semi-angels with an attitude

who were not satisfied with the work of the Creator

but took it upon themselves to genetically modify everything

which God called corruption of His creation

panopticon

7th June 2012, 06:46

well you must remember that the people had begun to multiply into the millions and make a lot of noise
even on the sabbath
also some of His angels just had to make out with women and beget huge semi-angels with an attitude
who were not satisfied with the work of the Creator
but took it upon themselves to genetically modify everything
which God called corruption of His creation

G'day RedeZra,

That's the way I understand the Sumerian myth goes, all except the part about 'genetically modifying everything'.
Nice twist.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

RedeZra

7th June 2012, 13:14

G'day RedeZra,

That's the way I understand the Sumerian myth goes, all except the part about 'genetically modifying everything'.
Nice twist.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

hi Pan

the so-called pleistocene megafauna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_megafauna) was probably the result of genetic engineering by the huge anunnaki or semi-angels

so God had a good reason to flood it

Hervé

15th June 2012, 03:21

Still no fresh salad from the beasts digestive system... but some other news re a biggy meteorite:

Meteorite storm 'smashed the Earth 12,000 years ago and killed off a prehistoric people'
By Daily Mail Reporter (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=&authornamef=Daily+Mail+Reporter)

PUBLISHED:09:49 GMT, 12 June 2012 | UPDATED:15:01 GMT, 12 June 2012

Scientists find 'melt-glass' in 12,000-year-old rock

Melt glass forms at 1,700 degrees - equal to atomic bomb

Meteorites thought to have triggered a cold snap that killed off early civilisation and giant animals
Scientists have found compelling evidence that a meteorite storm hit the earth more than 12,000 years ago, and is likely to have been responsible for the extinction of a prehistoric people and giant animals including mammoths.Evidence of the meteorite’s intense heat was found on two continents. The researchers believe the huge cosmic impact triggered a vicious cold snap, which caused widespread destruction.

The international team found a substance known as melt glass, which forms at temperatures of 1,7000 to 2,200 degrees Celcius and can result from a ‘cosmic body’ hitting the earth.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/12/article-2158054-13917645000005DC-733_642x219.jpg
Extreme heat: The meteorite impact caused the 13,000-year-old quartz found in Syria to melt and boil, creating features including burst bubbles and flow textures

The material was found in a thin layer of rock in Pennsylvania and South Carolina in the US, along with Syria. Tests confirmed the material was not of cosmic, volcanic or human-made origin.

More... 'Mega meteor that crashed off Indian coast' may have wiped out dinosaurs (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1221388/Indian-mega-meteor-wiped-dinosaurs.html)

‘The extreme temperatures required are equal to those of an atomic bomb blast, high enough to make sand melt and boil,’ said James Kennett, professor of earth science at UC Santa Barbara.

The melt-glass appears identical to other material found in Meteor Crater in Arizona, and the Australasian tektite field, and also matches melt-glass produced by the 1945 Trinity nuclear airburst in New Mexico in the US, Professor Kennett said.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/12/article-2158054-0533B7370000044D-780_638x467.jpg
Gone forever: The meteor storm is thought to have caused the mass extinction of megafauna including the woolly mammoth

The team's findings support the controversial theory that an asteroid impact occurred 12,900 years ago and triggered the start of an unusual cold period on Earth, leading to widespread extinction of human and animal life.

In the cold period, known as the Younger Dryas, North American megafauna including mammoths and giant ground sloths disappeared forever, along with a prehistoric civilisation called the Clovis culture.

The Clovis people used distinctive bone and ivory tools and are regarded as the first human inhabitants of the New World.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/12/article-2158054-13917641000005DC-497_640x221.jpg
Match: Melt glass, known as trinitite, formed during the Trinity nuclear airburst in New Mexico in 1945 when rocks melted. The scientists say the melt-glass is similar to that found in the 12,800-year-old rock

Evidence supporting the theory has now been found on three continents, covering nearly one-third of the planet, from California to Western Europe, and into the Middle East.

Syria is the easternmost site yet identified in the northern hemisphere, but the researchers have yet to find a limit to debris field of the impact. Melt-glass has been found in rock layers of the same age in Arizona and Venezuela.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/12/article-2158054-1392D3A2000005DC-114_640x545.jpg
Scientists found the melt glass - evidence of the meteorite's intense heat - in Pennsylvania and South Carolina in the US along with Syria

The three sites found in the latest study were separated by 1,000 to 10,000 kilometers, suggesting that ‘a swarm of cosmic objects,’ either fragments of a meteorite or comet, had hit the earth, Professor Kennett said.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/12/article-2158054-1391764A000005DC-429_310x252.jpg
Proof: Earth scientist James Kennett says evidence for the meteorite has been found over one third of the planet

Professor Kennett added that the archaeological site in Syria where the melt-glass material was found –– Abu Hureyra, in the Euphrates Valley –– is one of the few sites of its kind that record the transition from nomadic hunter-gatherers to farmer-hunters who live in permanent villages.

‘Archeologists and anthropologists consider this area the “birthplace of agriculture,” which occurred close to 12,900 years ago,’ Professor Kennett said.

‘The presence of a thick charcoal layer in the ancient village in Syria indicates a major fire associated with the melt-glass and impact spherules 12,900 years ago,’ he continued.

‘Evidence suggests that the effects on that settlement and its inhabitants would have been severe.’

The study was published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2158054/Scientists-discover-evidence-meteorite-storm-hit-Earth-13-000-years-ago-killed-prehistoric-civilisation.html#ixzz1xpMlfDOA

panopticon

15th June 2012, 05:28

G'day Amzer Zo,

Thanks for the article and link.

I did a quick search and found the source material:
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/13/E738.full

Very interesting.
So it is possible that an event (or series of events) of this magnitude would have "kicked up" sufficient material to bring about the Younger Dryas.
If this occurred it would have produced sufficient cooling to alter the climatic conditions dramatically, reducing vegetation and increasing snow/ice coverage resulting in drastically altered migratory patterns and/or large animal starvation (remember Mammoths would have had to eat a lot).

Just as a thought might this have produced "ice dams" which thawed in later years producing localised out-burst events?
The reason I ask is that would explain (to me at least) why there are collections of mammoth fossils in certain areas.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

BTW -- I've been doing a bit of research into human/pre-human genome (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC187548/) and it appears that the chromosome 2 fusion dates back to Neanderthals (http://www.eva.mpg.de/neandertal/) (not a common ancestor of homo sapiens) which would place it originally, at the very least, with the last common ancestor 'archaic homo sapiens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_Homo_sapiens)' (so at least 500,000 yBP). The information on this is a bit scant at the moment unfortunately but I'm finding it very interesting.

Hervé

15th June 2012, 07:58

Hi Panopticon,

Thanks for the link.

That thing must have been one big single/cluster mother f****r!

I agree that such a catastrophic event would have kicked up a lot of dust and particles up in the atmosphere to which needs to be added the smoke, ashes and vapors from the widespread fires -- at least all over North America -- enough to generate a few days of darkness, I guess.

In turn, that lack of sun light would increase the precipitation of water vapors (also if that meteorite or a cluster of them hit lakes and/or shallow seas, partly vaporising and partly splashing it/them around) inducing floods and probably the burst of ice damms as well.

The crux of the matter and some of the constraints on this event for the Siberia area are given by these two factors:

1- The woolly mammoths found had somewhat a full "stomach."

2- In order to have that stomach still full, they died pretty quick during their continuous meals.

So, those weren't starved to death and nobody has as yet reported an anomalous amount of meteoritic buckshots in their meat except for the ones found in the tusks. Although, now, interested people might take a closer look so as to avoid broken teeth chewing on it.

That, again leads to a rapid preserve method following the catastrophic event. Not days after when the vegetation was already burnt to cinders in some areas. I haven't heard yet of cinged wool from the woolly mammoths from those areas.

My inclination, for the moment, is that the ones that have been discovered whole were rapidly burried in either, thixotropic mud, thick mud flows or feet of snow due to a higher rate of precipitations. Drowned, whatever the case.

Currently, the theory goes that "Ice Ages" are actually due to global warming from the increase of moisture in the atmosphere creating fast snow in the polar and high altitude regions and which fails to melt during the following years, hence keeping accumulating into growing and advancing glaciers.

All considered, a cluster of meteorites hitting Earth at that time would encompass a lot of the "Flood" stories collected from around the various cultures... from big splashes of water waved all around, rain, days of darkness, mammoths sinking instantly into the impact shaken thixotropic grounds they were standing on... starts to make sense to me. Then, considering that meteorite showers are cyclical in nature... easy to predict another "End of Time" event for when that cluster comes back... by "Fire and Brimstones" this time. The latter would indicate that those who made these predictions somehow had an inkling that the pieces left from that cluster aren't big enough to generate big splashes and waves when hitting an ocean or a sea.... Then, again, this time, Earth might be on the other side of the Sun at the time of the return and the cluster will continue unabated on its course onto other targets and obstacles. Isn't that interesting... the "Time of the Return?"

Until further data,

Cheers!

observer

15th June 2012, 09:58

[....snip]
".... the "Time of the Return?"

The time of the Return.... indeed, Amzer.

A 'must watch' video, for foundational understanding:

"Thunderbolts of the Gods"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4773590301316220374&ei=kPM1SfiSDIruqAKNrdWkCQ&q=thunderbolts+of+the+gods+#

Hervé

20th June 2012, 03:35

Mammoth graveyard uncovered in Serbia

Posted Jun 16 2012 (http://www.phenomenica.com/2012/06) by phenomenica (http://www.phenomenica.com/author/phenomenica) in Ancient (http://www.phenomenica.com/category/ancient), Prehistory (http://www.phenomenica.com/category/prehistory)

The world’s first collective graveyard of a herd of mammoths has been discovered at the excavation site for coal in Serbia.

Heavy torrential rain earlier this week exposed the remains of what could be up to six mammoths, at an open pit mine in Kostolac, east of Belgrade not far from a site where two other mammoth remains had been uncovered in recent years.

Miomir Korac, director of the Archeological Project Viminacium, which is named after the Roman provincial capital along the Danube River, said that the discovery came as a complete surprise.

The archeologists were first alerted to one set of giant remains of a mammoth that was damaged by the mining machinery. But then the heavy downpour rinsed away the yellow sand.

http://www.phenomenica.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Mammoth-Serbia.jpg (http://www.phenomenica.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Mammoth-Serbia.jpg)

Korac’s team will now use infrared screening to get a better idea of what lies below the surface and check if there are additional mammoth bones.

“We will use all tools possible including tooth picks to scrape sand from the teeth, which could answer the epoch of the mammoths,” ABC News quoted Nemanja Mrdjic, an archeologist of the team digging at the site, as saying.

Korac elucidated that the location covers an area of some 20.000 square meters on what could have been an island in the Pannonian Sea, which today is the most fertile land of Hungary, northern Serbia and Croatia.

[...]

Full article: http://www.phenomenica.com/2012/06/mammoth-graveyard-uncovered-in-serbia.html

Coal... excavation of... and an accompanying mammoth graveyard... I guess those starved to death due to scorched earth incidental to asteroids and meteorites overhead bursts....

Oh! And there was a sea there too....

Hervé

20th June 2012, 03:55

On the human side of the story:

PUqdYBxbbck

Published on Jun 8, 2012 by ThunderboltsProject (http://www.youtube.com/user/ThunderboltsProject)
Excerpt from The Catastrophic Termination of the Last Ice Age by Robert Schoch, Electric Universe 2012 Conference: The Human Story.

PLEASE NOTE: Many speakers and panelists at the January conference in Las Vegas will be speaking at the upcoming Natural Philosophy Alliance conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico, July 25-28.
http://conference.worldnpa.org

"The sky fell..."

sigma6

8th July 2012, 04:20

My my, have been away for awhile, this has turned into quite the bazaar of rationalisations (lol), learned my lesson, (ie. give an inch... ) but I did find this article that states:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112615766/ancient-antarctica-was-a-completely-different-place/

"A new university-led study with NASA participation finds ancient Antarctica was much warmer and wetter than previously suspected. The climate was suitable to support substantial vegetation — including stunted trees — along the edges of the frozen continent." Which would indicate there would be plant life similar to arctic vegetation. Apparent conundrum solved. (with another theory mind you ;-)

Also the 'metal pellets' in the antler horn thing, as explanation for the Mammoths?... that would be like saying something like the Tunguska incident would cause worldwide flooding and an instantaneous ice age?

- anyhow, if anyone has anything on Roman manipulation and cultivation of Christianity, past or present in any form, I would be interested...

observer

8th July 2012, 11:31

[....snip]
- anyhow, if anyone has anything on Roman manipulation and cultivation of Christianity, past or present in any form, I would be interested...

Back in the day when I still had some faith in the "channeled" message, I used to subscribe to a 'channel' by the name of Paul Shockley (http://www.cosmicawareness.org/html/paul_shockley.html). This all goes back to the mid and late seventies.

Paul used to speak of, what he called, the "Beast". He was speaking of an hyperdimensional reptilian influence, but we didn't have any such understanding forty years ago.

I don't presently underwrite any channeled material. However, after following the words of many, I found Paul Shockley to be one of the most accurate. Here's a link to much of his work:
http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/creator/masterfile.htm
You might want to scroll-down to the four part series on "How the Jesus Myth was Created". Also, keep in mind this was all recorded in the late seventies.

When David Icke came along in the nineties, he produced a factual evidential trail for this hyperdimensional phenomenon, which he referred to as the 'Reptilian Agenda'.

I wouldn't dare send any member onto a forty year research mission, so, I'll shorten it to a few weeks of intense study. If one really wants to gain an understanding of how the Roman empire manipulated the text of the Bible - over a three hundred year period of time - one should start with a foundational understanding as offered by David Icke.

David Icke - "The Biggest Secret" - Chapter Five - "Conquered By The Cross":
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biggestsecret/biggestsecretbook/biggestsecret05.htm

Once one has realized the Roman Empire skillfully manipulated the faith of the Nazarene Essenes (http://www.essenespirit.com/who.html), i.e. early, or Gnostic Christianity, into Trinity Christianity in a carefully manipulated agenda to perpetuate the Roman Empire into what we now know as the Holy Roman Empire, or Catholicism. Once this realization has become manifest, it isn't too difficult, nor, too far of a stretch, to understand it was all done through hyperdimensional telepathic thought control.

For an in-depth understanding of who wrote the Gospels of the New Testament, see this link:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_piso01.htm

The Piso (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_piso.htm) family was one of those elite, "behind-the-scene, manipulators of the Roman Empire. Their influence spans many hundred years of Empire history.

Julius Cesar's last wife was a Piso. Herod (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_piso02b.htm) was married to a Piso. All the Flavius Emperors, and for that matter, all those using the Flavius title were related to the Piso. The all-so-powerful, contemporary Bush family is related to the Piso of the Roman Empire.

sigma6

20th December 2012, 04:20

It's been a while since I have revisited this post, just an update, it looks like truthsurge has finally finished this series, I think I have downloaded 37 different sections going from part 1 to part 17 (they have extensions, a,b,c, some go as far as f...) so get started here again...

Excavating the empty tomb Part 1

4jOzCMy9e5E

And although this thread went miles off topic, Heyoka's Link #67 is a definite reference point
(update: sure enough this video dissapeared again, if you can find a link to update
send me a message, thanks)

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?45635-Excavating-The-Empty-Tomb-The-Gospels-based-on-Homer-s-Odyssey&p=500855&viewfull=1#post500855

Secrets of Christianity: Selling Christianity

http://vimeo.com/45729194

Dr Bart Ehrman

And finally noted references in this work are Dr Bart Ehrman as being outstanding in my mind on the arguments regarding the interpretation of the New Testament. I didn't load the videos in this post in order to add more links without overloading the page

After viewing truthsurge's videos I have been drawn to Ehrman's, as it comes across as fair minded and scholarly. I don't find him biased or with ulterior motive, (or agenda) which I found to be the case in many of his opposing debaters, a testament to his acumen on the subject.

Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene - Bart Ehrman 37:36
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHFTJIMtOik

Misquoting Jesus Speech at Stanford 1:35:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0zWbL8Uqfw

Did Jesus Exist? Bart Ehrman Q&A 1:19:06
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt_pyrU8V3U

Forged - C2C Inteview by Ian Punnit 2:01:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRrq3s3P3Pw

Bart Ehrman refutes facts in The Da Vinci Code
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JFh_XoXbTY

panopticon

20th December 2012, 10:50

G'day Sigma6,

I really enjoy Ehrman's work and like what I've seen of his presentation style.
I'm looking forward to putting a few hours aside and watching these.
Thanks.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

sigma6

21st December 2012, 16:39

What is really interesting is that Ehrman has now written a book on the question of the "Existence of Jesus"
I have seen a few interviews one included above, and I have to say, there is another dimension of Ehrman that is coming out here if I am not mistaken.

My initial reaction to these interviews is sketchy, precisely because I can't get 'a fix' on what exactly he is saying just yet, ie. there are other confounding variables. It seems like he has spent the good part of his many decades being the "devil's advocate" (for the lack of a better term) and in those debates he is brilliant, professional, articulate, etc...

Now he has taken on the argument of Jesus' existence, which I wanted to hear immediately, but I couldn't "get a fix" on the first two interviews... he does come across in the sense of his position is clear. That he DOES believe absolutely in the existence of Jesus as a once living man. Yet the confounding factor in one interview was that a famous critic who wanted to challenge him, was so overtly offensive according to Ehrman that he had 'broken off correspondence' ... Now it did sound like a legitimate offence... ie. he felt the critic was being petty, making personal attacks, and not being scholarly, given the context of his credentials, which is fair...

But it left it even more suspenseful then a world wrestling or boxing confrontation imo, because of course due to the lack of continued correspondence, we don't have a definitive argument... since the politics of 'etiquette' and protocol got in the way of any actual substance... another interview got highly technical to the point I actually can't recall specifics (ie. nothing stuck) ... So I only go by my 'instincts', consider first impressions very important, and I clearly got an 'ambiguous' signal on all this (not surprisingly) And this is NOT typical of Ehrman's usual delivery to begin with! ... (which in my mind is an indicator in itself... )

Even the way he approached the subject was rather interesting, he felt the question was beyond reproach, but because so many people were asking him if he believed if Jesus was a real man or a conceptualization (projection of Christ consciousness for example) he said he was rather surprised at this... This alone created a 'disconnect' as I perceive Bart to be very attuned with the popular sentiment, which is why he is such a popular speaker and author to begin with. Either way, this approach, came off as either naive, especially given his position, or political, as he is a master debater and is in fact already 'positioning' himself even before descending into his delivery. (sigh... alas... must go back and listen more... )

But I can't help feel that there is something going on here, reminds me of Fulford's expression... ie. there is "some horse trading going on" (which translates in my mind (for some reason) to my favourite saying "jockeying for position")
hmmm.... and as Richard Hoagland would say.... "stay tuned!" (LOL)

Will be looking up more of his discourses on this new angle which we should be seeing more of, as his book is relatively recent...

panopticon

21st December 2012, 23:48

G'day Sigma6,

I can't remember if I've asked this before but have you read any of former fundamentalist Baptist preacher turned sceptic Robert M. Price's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Price) work? He loves the Bible and presents many well informed arguments.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/biblegeek/IMAGES/image.jpg

He's got 2 Phd's in theology and, I feel anyway, presents a good argument regards the lack of evidence to support the existence of an Historical Jesus as presented in the Bible.
He also has a couple of pod casts which, while being hard going sometimes, are very informative (here (http://www.thehumanbible.net/) and here (http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/biblegeek.php)) and his main website is here (http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/).

Just thought I'd mention him as he's a bit of a character, particularly the pod casts, and well informed.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Update

Just noticed that one of Ehrman's videos mentions Price so I'm intrigued as to what he says. I remember that Ehrman and he had a few problems at one stage in debates (since resolved as I understand it) and am interested whether that is reflected in this video.

panopticon

22nd December 2012, 08:06

Well I've listened to this one so far:

Xt_pyrU8V3U

From what I've gathered so far Ehrman is not that far from the Mythicists.

He doesn't seem to reckon the miracles happened but can't definitively say that the historical Jesus didn't exist so says he probably did. His argument appear to be largely based on circumstantial evidence and conjecture. For example Jesus had a brother so Jesus existed. The apostles existed so Jesus existed. I'd have to read his book (no, I don't have time at the moment) to get a better understanding of his argument but there seems to be a bit of to and fro regards his claims (Osiris' rebirth mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris#Mythology) for example) that there are no stories from ancient times with a rebirth narrative (was it a physical resurrection story or not depicted in the NT which is a huge debate in and of itself).

There was an interesting short interview with him back on, get this, April 1st this year on NPR where he indicated that the mythicist argument was plausible:

Mythicists' arguments are fairly plausible, Ehrman says. According to them, Jesus was never mentioned in any Roman sources and there is no archeological evidence that Jesus ever existed. Even Christian sources are problematic – the Gospels come long after Jesus' death, written by people who never saw the man.

"Most importantly," he explains, "these mythicists point out that there are Pagan gods who were said to die and rise again and so the idea is that Jesus was made up as a Jewish god who died and rose again."
Source (http://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case).

Here's the 8 minute interview:

http://pd.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/atc/2012/04/20120401_atc_08.mp3
Source (http://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case).

My personal view has always been that there may well have been an historical Jesus (in all likelihood a wandering preacher) and this was the foundation on which the later stories were built on (around 70 CE, following the destruction of the 2nd Temple).

I'll get back when I've had more time to have a look at the other ones.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

sigma6

8th January 2013, 18:03

More damning information, it parallels "Excavating the Empty tomb but seems to have divergent or additional information...
and here is one of the references from the last video in the series - a Red Ice Creations page...
a perfect fit on the origin of "A-braham"
http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/03mar/masonserpent.html

The Empty Cross - Part 1
CB4zYq4DmLo

Ironically none of this makes me feel depressed or desiring to be a "atheist" (which is a total cop out in my mind) And there is no political agenda here, just a constant seeking of truth. This seems to lead into an even greater study I am convinced that the many numerous connections back to eastern philosophy are becoming a new line of focus in this ongoing research. And I have always stated the eastern philosophies are the language of quantum physics. So this is coming full circle to the idea that to understand the true nature of universe is to look within and understand self. Starting with our own consciousness. Welcome to the brave new world. And I think we better figure this out, before others decide again to do it for us, and create yet another One World Government where there is no escape, no God, no trust, just a corporate prison, which is what it is looking like they are trying to create.

sigma6

2nd February 2013, 20:53

Well more historical literature, and this one should really resonate with anyone who has seriously studied, or has an appreciation of literary form.

Flash a brilliant light on the whole concept of how "Christianity" all started. It may be something different today, but how it started is a lot easier to understand then the story of Christianity taught in Roman Catholic Churches today... and no wonder... I would add this does not diminish my spiritual belief in the least but opens up a larger horizon. These Romans should be seen for who they are, the creators of much of the modern legal, medical, commercial world we live in today. A world of slaves created for these Master Manipulators.

In another view, various men have been raising the standard of "slavery" to the point where most are pretty satisfied with their "comfy jail cell" But why not take the next big leap. Educating the masses, replacing our Military Government with one based on real love of mankind. Or has that system already been put in place? (hidden in that BC in our hands?)

The sooner they are exposed for what they are the quicker we can get there...

Check out http://www.thenewsturmer.com/downloading/roman1_2.pdf

THE ROMAN ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY
by Joseph Atwill

1.THE FIRST CHRISTIANS AND THE FLAVIANS

There were many gods who are now seen as fictitious that were worshipped during the era when Jesus purportedly performed his miracles. But while Jesus’ feats were no less supernatural than those of Hercules, the possibility that he was also mythological has seldom been considered. One reason for this is that a first century historian, Flavius Josephus, recorded Jesus’ existence.

As he relates it, Josephus’ life was nearly as fabulous as his famous subject’s. He claimed to have been born in Jerusalem in 37 CE into the royal family of Judea, the Macabbees. Like Jesus, Josephus was a child prodigy who astounded his elders with his knowledge of Judaic law. Josephus also claimed to have been a member of each of the Jewish sects of his era, the Sadduccees, the Pharisees and the Essenes.

When the Jewish rebellion against Rome broke out in 66CE, though with no described military background and believing the cause hopeless, Josephus was given command of the revolutionary army of Galilee. Taken captive, he was brought before the Roman general Vespasian to whom he presented himself as a prophet. He then claimed that Judaism’s Messianic prophecies foresaw not a Jewish Messiah, but Vespasian, whom Josephus predicted would become the ‘Lord of all mankind.’

After this came to pass, so to speak, and Vespasian became the Emperor of Rome, he rewarded Josephus’ clairvoyance by adopting him. The Jewish rebel, Josephus ben Mattathias, thus became Flavius Josephus, the son of Caesar. At this point God spoke to Josephus and informed him that he had switched his favor from the Jews to the Romans. Josephus therefore became a ardent supporter of Rome’s conquest of Judea. When Vespasian returned to Rome to receive the mantle of Emperor he left Josephus behind to assist his son Titus with the siege of Jerusalem.

Once the city was destroyed, Josephus took up residence within the Flavian court at Rome where he enjoyed the patronage of Vespasian and the subsequent Flavian emperors, Titus and Domitian. It was while living there that Josephus wrote his two major works, War of the Jews, a description of the 66 –73 CE war between the Romans and the Jews, and Jewish Antiquities, a history of the Jewish people.

Josephus’ histories are of great significance to Christianity. Virtually all that we know regarding the social context of the New Testament (NT) is derived from them. Without these works the very dating of the events of the NT would be impossible.

Within his works, Josephus provided Jesus with the historical documentation that Hercules did not receive, a fact that is widely known. However, Josephus also provided Jesus with another kind of documentation that that has been largely forgotten. Early Christians believed that the events Josephus described in War of the Jewsproved that Jesus had been able to see into the future.

It is difficult to find even one early Christian who taught another position. Church scholars such as Tertullian, Justin Martyr, and Cyprian were unanimous in proclaiming that Josephus’ description of Titus Flavius’ conquest of Judea in War of the Jewsproved that Jesus’ prophecies had come to pass. As Eusebius wrote in 325CE:

‘If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian (Josephus) concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously Strange.’

One example of the ‘foreknowledge’ that so impressed Eusebius was Jesus’ prediction that the ‘foes’ of Jerusalem would encircle it with a wall, demolish the city and its temple, and ‘level’ its inhabitants.

And when He was now getting near Jerusalem…

He came into full view of the city, He wept aloud over it, and exclaimed,

For the time is coming upon thee when thy foes will throw up around thee earthworks and a wall, investing thee and hemming thee in on every side.

and level you and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another in you; because you did not know the time of your visitation.’
[Luke 19:37-43]

All of the precise details Jesus foresaw for Jerusalem did indeed come to pass. Josephus recorded in War of the Jewsthat Titus ordered that the city be hemmed in ‘on every side’ Notice that Titus, like Jesus, saw the encircling of the city as an event sanctioned by God, who inspired the Roman soldiers with a ‘divine fury’ so they might accomplish this ‘great thing.’

That therefore his (Titus’s) opinion was, that…they must build a wall round about the whole city….,if any one should think such a work to be too great…he ought to consider that it is not fit for Romans to undertake any small work, and that none but God himself could with ease accomplish any great thing…. indeed there now came upon the soldiers a certain divine fury…Titus began the wall from the camp of the Assyrians, where his own camp was pitched, and drew it down to the lower parts of Cenopolis; thence it went along the valley of Cedron, to the Mount of Olives; it then bent towards the south, and encompassed the mountain as far as the rock called Peristereon, and that other hill which lies next it, and is over the valley which reaches to Siloam; whence it bended again to the west, and went down to the valley of the Fountain, beyond which it went up again at the monument of Ananus the high priest, and encompassing that mountain where Pompey had formerly pitched his camp, it returned back to the north side of the city, after which it encompassed Herod's monument, and there, on the east, was joined to Titus's own camp, where it began.
(Book III, Ch. VII)

Josephus also recorded that Titus did not merely burn Jerusalem and defile its Temple, but ordered that they should be left exactly as Jesus has foreseen, with ‘not one stone upon another.’ (Titus) gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and Temple...

Jesus stated that this calamity would befall Jerusalem’s inhabitants because they did not know the ‘time of your visitation.’ The coming ‘visitation’ that Jesus was referring to was to be made by someone he called the ‘Son of Man,’ a title used by the prophet Daniel for the Jewish Messiah. While it has been universally believed that Jesus was referring to himself when he used the expression the ‘Son of Man,’ he always speaks of this individual in the third person and never as himself. Jesus repeatedly warned the Jews that during the ‘Son of Man’s’ visitation various disasters, like those he foresaw above, would occur.

Be on the alert therefore, for you do not know the day on which your Lord is coming. Therefore you also must be ready; for it is at a time when you do not expect Him that the Son of Man will come. {Mat 24:42-4}

Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming. {Matt 25: 13}

Though Jesus did not say exactly when the visitation from the ‘Son of Man’ would occur he did state that he would come before the generation alive during his ministry passed away.

So you also, when you see all these signs, may be sure that He is near--at your very door.

I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place. {Mat 24:33-34}

Josephus War of the Jews, V, xii
Josephus War of the Jews VII, 1
Daniel 7:13

As Jews of this era saw a generation as lasting forty years Titus’ destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE fit perfectly into the timeframe Jesus gave for his prophecy. However, while Jesus did accurately predict events from the coming war there was a flaw in his ‘foreknowledge.’ That is, that the person whose ‘visitation’ actually brought about the destruction of Jerusalem was not Jesus, but Titus Flavius. If his prophecies did envision, (as Eusebius and other Church scholars have maintained), events from the coming war between the Romans and the Jews, then the ‘Son of Man’ Jesus warned of seems to have been not himself but Titus, a point that we shall return to.

There was little written between the fifth and fifteenth centuries commenting on the numerous parallels between the events Josephus recorded in War of the Jews and Jesus’ predictions. This is not surprising, as the Church is known to have actively discouraged scriptural analysis during this era. What evidence was left, however, suggests that during the entire Middle-Ages Christians viewed Josephus’ depiction of the war between the Romans and the Jews as proof of Christ’s divinity. Icons, carving on caskets and religious paintings from this era all portrayed the 70CE destruction of Jerusalem as the fulfillment of Jesus’ doomsday prophecies.

The importance of Josephus’ works to Christians during this period can also be gauged by the fact that the Eastern Christian churches of Syria and Armenia actually included his books as part of their handwritten Bible. This pairing also occurred in Europe where, following the invention of the printing press, Latin editions of the Bible included Antiquities and War of the Jews.

Following the Reformation, scholars were able to record their opinions and their writings show that they continued to view the relationship between the NT and War of the Jews as proof of Christ’s divinity. For example, Dr. Thomas Newton, wrote in his 1754 work, Dissertations on the Prophecies (On the Significance of A.D.70):

As a general in the wars (Josephus) must have had an exact knowledge of all transactions, and a Jewish priest he would not relate them with any favour of partiality to the Christian cause. His history was approved by Vespasian and Titus (who ordered it to be published) and by King Agrippa and many others, both Jews and Romans, who were present in those wars. He designed nothing less, and yet as if he had designed nothing more, his history of the Jewish wars may serve as a larger comment on our Saviour's prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem

Newton’s position was the same as Eusebius. Both scholars believed that Josephus ‘designed nothing less’ than to honestly record the war between the Romans and the Jews. The fact that the events Josephus recorded seemed to be the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy did not strike them as in any way suspicious. On the contrary, they saw the relationship between the two works as proof of Jesus’ divinity. They were in no way unusual in this understanding, which was held by the majority of Christian scholars until the end of the 19th century. It was a circular system...

Check out http://www.thenewsturmer.com/downloading/roman1_2.pdf