Love and Logic.

[Tony]

Love and Logic.

It does sound odd, putting love and logic together. For Love to be real, it has to be unconditional: it must fit into all situations. This is logical.

If we are talking about romantic love, then we are talking about attachment. We are driven by desire, arising from excited hormones: this is conditional love. This is also logical.

But here we may be thinking, “Well, love comes from the heart. It is beyond logic!”
Is it? What is the heart? The answer to this is usually, “It's where my feelings come from.”

We know we have a body and a mind. So where is this heart? We can feel the effects of it in our body, especially if it is romantic, conditional love. That in turn comes from the ideas in our mind.
If love came from the mind, then it would arise from a set of ideas, which are impermanent in nature. So such a love would rely on conditions.

Perhaps we have to look beyond the mind. That would be logical! What is beyond the thinking mind? It must be an awareness that is present before thinking occurs. Perhaps we can call that pure being. So this pure being, having no ideas, must also know itself: it has a cognisant quality.

Being = pure and knowing! That is logical.

If this being is totally Pure and Aware, it would know everything. That is, it would know the nature of everything to be of a temporary and impermanent. It would also know that all thoughts are temporary and impermanent. Therefore everything would be known as unreal - except for this Pure Awareness.

So, where does love and the heart come in?
When this Pure Awareness (being) that knows its true nature looks out and sees other beings, who do not know or recognise their true nature, a sadness arises.
That very reaction is Love - unconditional Love, with no limits.
So what we are calling Heart is merely an expression of Pure Awareness. That's logical.

If it's not that, then our feelings are merely romantic ideas about ourselves and everything else. That is why we get upset so easily. This is logical.

Thus, everything is logical...or one could say, perfect.
If there is love, it has a perfect reason.
If there is a lack of love, (which is a love of self) there is a perfect reason.
Everything is logical. Everything follows universal laws.

Even the crew of Galactic Federation Starships must have the same confusion about love and logic!
Bones - loves emotions.
Jim - loves combat.
Ohura - loves sticking a finger in her ear.
Mr. Zulu - loves going fast.
Mr. Scott - loves dilithium crystals.
Mr. Spock - loves Jim and logic. (the others find him cold, but he gets does them out of scrapes with all those nasty emotional aliens!).

We tend to think logic is cold, only because it cuts through the emotions, which are over excited and hot.

Well, there we have it, it's undeniable - the Logic of Love! There is no mystery. We are just muddled about what the heart is. We may think that we are talking from our heart, when maybe it's from somewhere else. We will know the difference, if any of those nasty emotions are present..!


Tony

[music]

That pure Love (being = pure and knowing = unconditional Love) appears cold to us is my experience. Heat fuels only the love of the human heart because as imperfect beings we are filled with needs and desires. We equate this heat to Love, but heat itself is nothing but a by-product of physical processes, so any hot Love is fuelled by our ego-mediated corporeality.

The human heart is an analogue to the meeting point between the mundane and spiritual worlds, or the lower and upper dimensions. The root, sacral and solar plexus chakras equate to the 3 lower dimensions (our house here); the throat chakra is the gateway to time and space (higher dimensions); and the pineal, crown and supra-personal chakras relate to higher dimensions. We come into our personal power and the realisation of the true nature of ourselves and reality by uniting the masculine energy the we bring through the crown, and the feminine energy we bring through the feet, together within the heart chakra.

The heart is where we find our truth.

This truth is sometimes called “higher consciousness”.

Higher consciousness = Love

Magic is the intelligence of Love

When we act through the heart, we are in perfect alignment with the true nature of the All, so when can do no wrong. We require no morals, laws, rules or codices to direct our behaviour, because we are perfect. Our every action is to the higher good. We are within our power, and we are the creators of our own reality. This is not mumbo jumbo, we do, each of us, very much create our own realities. Be careful what you wish for.

[noprophet]

Love is the law, love under will. ;)

[music]

Spot on, noprophet, this is exactly where Crowley was coming from. The reggae band Culture also sum it up: "oh what a funny thing, to have a human being as a policeman." Love is the answer, that is why society is structured around the propagation of fear - to disempower us, a case of spiritual "castration/neutering".

[Andreash94]

If we talk we can't hear . if we think we can't feel . That's what i try to LEARN atm. Peace

[Eram]

We tend to think logic is cold, only because it cuts through the emotions, which are over excited and hot.


Hi Tony,

When I was a kid,
I put logic above everything.
Then later in life when I became a young adult, I thought it was all about emotions and I found that I had difficulties in experiencing them.

Now that I use logic again, to see through the veil of the mind, as a daily exercise, I get to see and experience all the emotions that were so oppressed in me.
Isn't it funny?

Thank you for this thread!

[Tony]

There was something very important point I forgot to say.... Human warmth!

It's the bit in the middle of, excited loins and a pure heart. And I forgot to mention it..tusk tusk!
Sometimes we can be too base, or too high brow, to remember to be a decent human being.

Genuine warmth to another person does so much - it heals.
The problem with forums, we are either too sugary, or too aloof and detached.
If we want a better world, we first need more warmth.
Another problem with forums is that people have agendas, and that agenda
seems more important than being genuinely friendly.

All in all, people are pretty messed up. Making a connection these days is not easy,
one has to feel this inner warmth first, others may or may not notice it.
We cannot expect too much. People are so suspicious that they tie themselves in knots.
This is to do with our environment and fear.

When I go on retreat, which is in silence, people seem to become Zombies.
I had to put a notice up saying, “ You are not zombies, being silent does not mean don't smile!”
The only people that were normal, were the dinner ladies who fed us!

We have to make an effort to be kind, it's worthwhile.
In human relationships, be a friend first, love will grow.

Tony

[Rantaak]

This thread resonates deeply with my recent contemplations. I have noticed that in American or Christian culture, we have this despicable idea that, "Sometimes you know that you have to do something even though your emotions disagree with it, but you do it anyway because you know that you have to."

This is the definition of cognitive dissonance. If your logic and your emotions disagree with each other, something is very wrong. They must align and coalesce in order for us to find balance in our liveliness.

[music]

There was something very important point I forgot to say.... Human warmth!

It's the bit in the middle of, excited loins and a pure heart. And I forgot to mention it..tusk tusk!
Sometimes we can be too base, or too high brow, to remember to be a decent human being.

Genuine warmth to another person does so much - it heals.
The problem with forums, we are either too sugary, or too aloof and detached.
If we want a better world, we first need more warmth.
Another problem with forums is that people have agendas, and that agenda
seems more important than being genuinely friendly.

All in all, people are pretty messed up. Making a connection these days is not easy,
one has to feel this inner warmth first, others may or may not notice it.
We cannot expect too much. People are so suspicious that they tie themselves in knots.
This is to do with our environment and fear.

When I go on retreat, which is in silence, people seem to become Zombies.
I had to put a notice up saying, “ You are not zombies, being silent does not mean don't smile!”
The only people that were normal, were the dinner ladies who fed us!

We have to make an effort to be kind, it's worthwhile.
In human relationships, be a friend first, love will grow.

Tony

Beautifully said Tony! Forums have a fairly high percentage of sociopaths (and I mean actual clinical sociopaths), and as these people are vocal, prolific, intelligent and viscious, the forums tend to the lowest common denominator of the sociopath meme. Jung called this the "mobilisation of the shadow", and forums are shadow plays in both a Jungian and Platonic sense. No need to explain this to people like yourself who are aware, no point in explaining what it means to those mired in illusion.

Awareness has a side effect that we can only ever Love another human being, but it does not require us to like the behaviour of everyone. Friendship is that most human of needs, and I agree, there is not enough of it.

[the_vast_mystery]

There was something very important point I forgot to say.... Human warmth!

It's the bit in the middle of, excited loins and a pure heart. And I forgot to mention it..tusk tusk!
Sometimes we can be too base, or too high brow, to remember to be a decent human being.

Genuine warmth to another person does so much - it heals.
The problem with forums, we are either too sugary, or too aloof and detached.
If we want a better world, we first need more warmth.
Another problem with forums is that people have agendas, and that agenda
seems more important than being genuinely friendly.

All in all, people are pretty messed up. Making a connection these days is not easy,
one has to feel this inner warmth first, others may or may not notice it.
We cannot expect too much. People are so suspicious that they tie themselves in knots.
This is to do with our environment and fear.

When I go on retreat, which is in silence, people seem to become Zombies.
I had to put a notice up saying, “ You are not zombies, being silent does not mean don't smile!”
The only people that were normal, were the dinner ladies who fed us!

We have to make an effort to be kind, it's worthwhile.
In human relationships, be a friend first, love will grow.

Tony

Even being genuinely friendly and inviting is an Agenda. An Agenda is merely a goal you seek and that can be as simple as making someone smile or as complex as writing a symphony. We all plan for the future, that's not evil. ;p

[Tony]

There was something very important point I forgot to say.... Human warmth!

It's the bit in the middle of, excited loins and a pure heart. And I forgot to mention it..tusk tusk!
Sometimes we can be too base, or too high brow, to remember to be a decent human being.

Genuine warmth to another person does so much - it heals.
The problem with forums, we are either too sugary, or too aloof and detached.
If we want a better world, we first need more warmth.
Another problem with forums is that people have agendas, and that agenda
seems more important than being genuinely friendly.

All in all, people are pretty messed up. Making a connection these days is not easy,
one has to feel this inner warmth first, others may or may not notice it.
We cannot expect too much. People are so suspicious that they tie themselves in knots.
This is to do with our environment and fear.

When I go on retreat, which is in silence, people seem to become Zombies.
I had to put a notice up saying, “ You are not zombies, being silent does not mean don't smile!”
The only people that were normal, were the dinner ladies who fed us!

We have to make an effort to be kind, it's worthwhile.
In human relationships, be a friend first, love will grow.

Tony

Even being genuinely friendly and inviting is an Agenda. An Agenda is merely a goal you seek and that can be as simple as making someone smile or as complex as writing a symphony. We all plan for the future, that's not evil. ;p

Genuine compassion is beyond agendas, it has no needs. It's the natural come out of .....knowing timelessness. Where there is no past, no present and no future.

[music]

A true act of friendship is to offer help with no attachment to outcome, and no need or desire for thanks or praise or even recognition. Random acts of kindness, paying it forward and related ideas are considered shmaltzy by most, but properly performed, these are acts of the highest awareness. We are taught by society to perform every action with a "what's in it for me" mindset, but this is not true to our essential nature. Agendas are part of the survival kit for physical reality that we dispense with as we attain awareness. I am not yet "agenda" free, but I would say I'm making good progress down that road.

[Kristin]

I've put this vid up before on another thread, but I thought you might see the love - logic relationship. Here you go Pie:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrAgb1-UKQ8

From the Heart,
Kristin

[the_vast_mystery]

Genuine compassion is beyond agendas, it has no needs. It's the natural come out of .....knowing timelessness. Where there is no past, no present and no future.

On the contrary, if it has no needs then it does not care if it is ever expressed at all. Compassion very much has an agenda, it's merely dispassionate about whether or not its agenda is successfully received.

To act without agenda is to act without intent, which is something I personally have never seen myself. (You'd need no imagination or memory to act without intent, as there's no other way to prevent you from intending a consequence short of preventing you from knowing anything about anything you say, do or think.) Everyone wants their actions to do something even if to lift someone else's spirits. Benevolence and malevolence are therefore both properties of willful acts, and therefore cannot occur without some idea in the person's mind as to what they would intend for those acts to illicit in another.

Compassion merely states that it does not care how its agenda is received, as it sees itself the inevitable victor in personal relations.

edit:


A true act of friendship is to offer help with no attachment to outcome, and no need or desire for thanks or praise or even recognition. Random acts of kindness, paying it forward and related ideas are considered shmaltzy by most, but properly performed, these are acts of the highest awareness. We are taught by society to perform every action with a "what's in it for me" mindset, but this is not true to our essential nature. Agendas are part of the survival kit for physical reality that we dispense with as we attain awareness. I am not yet "agenda" free, but I would say I'm making good progress down that road.

Pure altruism is impossible, when most people speak of altruism they tend to exclude narcissistic gratification from the categories of reward. Narcissistic gratification is very much a reward and very much what is sought by people doing such things.

They may not care about the other person at all, but they very much care about upholding their own idea of compassion or love. It's simply that they've moved on from needing the other person to acknowledge them or their efforts. In this light you could view altruism as an evolved form of pride or narcissistic vice. You make yourself feel good by upholding a standard because it works. There's nothing at all wrong with doing this.

Still, the nomenclature is deceptive in that it makes you think this is anything different than the same vanity practiced by those who stare at themselves endlessly in a mirror while grooming. You are very much that same person, still staring into an endless mirror of the soul, brushing your hair (virtue) and excessively washing (desire to purify) it to appear most beautiful of all. Your beauty in this case though is judged by yourself as to how you handled those situations in your life where you felt compelled to show your virtue (compassion) rather than physical attributes.

In the end negative or positive, either way you look at it you can draw the same parallels. What separates people's idea of "Good" or "Bad" is merely whether what you do has a strong mutual benefit to all.

[another bob]

To act without agenda is to act without intent, which is something I personally have never seen myself.


“The ocean moves, not because it wishes to move
or because it knows that it is wise or good:
it moves involuntarily, unconscious of movement.
It is thus that you also will return to Tao,
and when you have returned, you will not know it,
because you yourself would have become Tao.”

Wu Wei

[the_vast_mystery]

The ocean may be still and act without intent only because The moon (another) moves it. The Ocean does not care, because it is still and does not move of its own will.

[Tony]

Genuine compassion is beyond agendas, it has no needs. It's the natural come out of .....knowing timelessness. Where there is no past, no present and no future.

On the contrary, if it has no needs then it does not care if it is ever expressed at all. Compassion very much has an agenda, it's merely dispassionate about whether or not its agenda is successfully received.

To act without agenda is to act without intent, which is something I personally have never seen myself. (You'd need no imagination or memory to act without intent, as there's no other way to prevent you from intending a consequence short of preventing you from knowing anything about anything you say, do or think.) Everyone wants their actions to do something even if to lift someone else's spirits. Benevolence and malevolence are therefore both properties of willful acts, and therefore cannot occur without some idea in the person's mind as to what they would intend for those acts to illicit in another.

Compassion merely states that it does not care how its agenda is received, as it sees itself the inevitable victor in personal relations.

edit:


A true act of friendship is to offer help with no attachment to outcome, and no need or desire for thanks or praise or even recognition. Random acts of kindness, paying it forward and related ideas are considered shmaltzy by most, but properly performed, these are acts of the highest awareness. We are taught by society to perform every action with a "what's in it for me" mindset, but this is not true to our essential nature. Agendas are part of the survival kit for physical reality that we dispense with as we attain awareness. I am not yet "agenda" free, but I would say I'm making good progress down that road.

Pure altruism is impossible, when most people speak of altruism they tend to exclude narcissistic gratification from the categories of reward. Narcissistic gratification is very much a reward and very much what is sought by people doing such things.

They may not care about the other person at all, but they very much care about upholding their own idea of compassion or love. It's simply that they've moved on from needing the other person to acknowledge them or their efforts. In this light you could view altruism as an evolved form of pride or narcissistic vice. You make yourself feel good by upholding a standard because it works. There's nothing at all wrong with doing this.

Still, the nomenclature is deceptive in that it makes you think this is anything different than the same vanity practiced by those who stare at themselves endlessly in a mirror while grooming. You are very much that same person, still staring into an endless mirror of the soul, brushing your hair (virtue) and excessively washing (desire to purify) it to appear most beautiful of all. Your beauty in this case though is judged by yourself as to how you handled those situations in your life where you felt compelled to show your virtue (compassion) rather than physical attributes.

In the end negative or positive, either way you look at it you can draw the same parallels. What separates people's idea of "Good" or "Bad" is merely whether what you do has a strong mutual benefit to all.


Hello Vast-mystery,

We each have our view, and if it satisfies all well a good. I'll try and give a short reply, and come back later with a fuller reply, because what you say is very important.

Pure love, can only come from a pure essence. True we are all tainted, but if the ideal is denied then everything would seem pointless. That is why one practices, to refine one's understanding, and also to clear or strip away the taintedness. Personally I see it as possible, there has been a great change.

Throughout history humans have investigated to know what their true nature is. Once it is recognised, and true confidence is found, then its expression is love. At least a good heart. ....and it is so natural!

Tony

[Hermite]

Tony, when I read your posts my mind sometimes says: that's just not possible, we can't rise above what we truly "are." Sort of what mystery is saying here, I think. BUT, then I think of the Dalai Lama and he shows me that yes it is possible. I've only seem and heard him on media but his beingness is so bright, it's just clear to me that he embodies unconditional love, pure essence. all the things you explain to us. So, I read the words and think, no no, but think of him and say, oh yes.

I just thought that since that helps me to comprehend, maybe it would be of help to others, as well. Oh, and I also fully comprehend he didn't get to be the way he is by spending a few weeks at an ashram. It is truly a life-work. But evidently well worth it. So, keep up the good work, fellow travelers.
:grouphug:

[Tony]

CLARITY.

There are two forces at work in this universe: good and evil, or rather beneficial and non-beneficial.
We can see these work within ourselves: we can either have a good heart or a bad heart.
A good heart is all about others, and a bad heart is all about me.
However, the apparently non-beneficial can be beneficial - if viewed in the right way!

The non-beneficial is a mistaken, limited view of who and where we are.
The beneficial is a truthful, limitless view knowing who we are and where we are.
Here, we have to be honest, we may think we hold the right intention, but in practise we are still..having a go!

These two forces work on an external, internal and innermost levels of our being, and much depends on our clarity (or lack of it). What is needed is a clarity in the seeing, with an open mind.
The enlightened beings are attracted to this open mind and heart, whereas the un-enlightened beings are attracted to our closed minds and hearts...created by our emotions!

So we are the creator!

Let's see how this could work.
Here is a diagram: (the dotted line represents 'viewing')

CUP---EYE---MIND---ESSENCE.
As we can see, if the senses are clear, and the mind is clear and the essence is clear, we have pure perception = it's not absolute reality yet as that entails knowing the nature of the object seen, and that which sees.

So what has gone 'wrong'?

Here is our usual view:

CUP---EYE---££$$**mind**@??!!---ESSENCE.
The mind is now not clear = relative reality!
Perception is no longer pure. Essence is clouded.

What happened in the second case is that our pure view from essence has gone unnoticed, because our attention is now taken up with thoughts and emotions about ourself and outer phenomena, This produces likes and dislikes. We have been ambushed ! The ideas of “me” and “mine” are now the main focus. This is how we are as sentient beings. The mind looks out and relates to the world through the thoughts in the mind...we have forgotten our true nature.

This obstruction in the mind is what can be termed, ignorance.

It is through meditation that the mind can start looking inwards and realise its true nature.
Note: Meditation is actually the practice of investigating what and how things are in the mind, and not merely reading it from a book...

That is what spiritual work is all about.
We are spiritual beings: we are beyond this temporary mind and body, but we have learnt or acquired an identity clinging to this mind and body.
Being told this does not actually help the situation - we have to do some looking ourselves.

Enlightened beings send out blessings to all sentient beings, but we have to have our door open, even just slightly. We are all spiritual practitioners of some sort: we all get feelings, but if they are not recognised, they are just a temporary event, and we soon fall into our same old ways.

Once we have a glimpse of Pure Essence, it can be refined and stabilised. In Pure Essence there is no ego, no I. But one merely stayed in Pure Essence it would feel a little dry. This is where we move into Expression Essence, or Essence Love...the juice! Here there is a mere 'I' present to be able to relate with others. If there is an agenda it is to bring about balance or harmony.

This is done through Pacifying, Magnetising, Enriching or Destroying.

(There are other way to look at all this, this is but one.)

[Tarka the Duck]

The vast mystery wrote:

Pure altruism is impossible, when most people speak of altruism they tend to exclude narcissistic gratification from the categories of reward. Narcissistic gratification is very much a reward and very much what is sought by people doing such things

In Tibetan Buddhism there is a practice called Tonglen, that translates as "sending and receiving". It involves a visualisation of breathing in the suffering of others and breathing out relief and happiness to them. It's a fairly standard practice that many do.
I was recently listening to a lama talk, and brought up the subject of Tonglen...and proceeded to remind everyone in no uncertain terms that the chances are, we are doing this practice primarily to feel better about ourselves...that it's easy to sit in a quiet room and indulge in kind, generous thoughts. That it's not so easy to get out there and help those who need practical help. And that - if we were bluntly truthful - we would not actually be able to take on the suffering of others in a literal sense. How many of us would literally take the disease and pain of someone else on to ourself?

That is not to say that this practice doesn't have the psychological effect of turning one's attention to others and wishing them well. But we need to be honest with ourselves!

The main point, I feel, is the intention. Of course we have agendas: we'll have them until the moment of enlightenment I assume! So what are we going to do?! Presumably, we work on dismantling our agendas while at the same time, doing our best to engender an altruistic attitude.

[deridan]

Beautifully said Tony! Forums have a fairly high percentage of sociopaths (and I mean actual clinical sociopaths), and as these people are vocal, prolific, intelligent and viscious, the forums tend to the lowest common denominator of the sociopath meme. Jung called this the "mobilisation of the shadow", and forums are shadow plays in both a Jungian and Platonic sense. No need to explain this to people like yourself who are aware, no point in explaining what it means to those mired in illusion.

Awareness has a side effect that we can only ever Love another human being, but it does not require us to like the behaviour of everyone. Friendship is that most human of needs, and I agree, there is not enough of it.

just for the joy of being grouped into the ungroupable (& stomping into a lower meme).
music, you seem to have some knowledge of Crowley. I know him for his satanic bible, which was a bit of a laugh for it seemed so religious, and what religist or non religist would make a trade-in for another religion. .... But I have encountered Crowley interpretations of the tarot, and recently too, Crowley verse for the I-Ching,
he must have been a great coordinator of things spiritual,.. what would you have to say about this, if there is anything to say...would just like the opinion of an educated neutral

Great TAOIST verse Another Bob,
would we say that these Taoist had the logic love/emotion bridge down to a single keel,(thus a ancient art in advance of what we are now attempting to decontaminate from our beingness)

[another bob]

Great TAOIST verse Another Bob,
would we say that these Taoist had the logic love/emotion bridge down to a single keel,(thus a ancient art in advance of what we are now attempting to decontaminate from our beingness)

Hiya D!

With the direct realization that we are being lived (whether we say by Source, or Tao, or Love, or Life), our angle of vision undergoes a radical transformation, a reversal at the core, and in this process, the rug is pulled out from beneath our arrogant self-images, and an authentic humility is born. This humility proves to be the "bridge".

[RMorgan]

Hey Tony,

I agree.

Also, different parts of our brain are responsible for logic and emotions like love, but whenever we remove one of these parts, neither logic or love can exist.

For instance, logic and abstract thought are carried out primarily in the neocortex. That said, specific reasoning is primarily conducted in the frontal lobe, while spatial reasoning is parietal lobe characteristic.

The reward center of the brain associate with love is the nucleus accumbens.

Major inputs to the nucleus accumbens include prefrontal association cortices, basolateral amygdala, and dopaminergic neurons located in the ventral tegmental area, which connect via the mesolimbic pathway.

I really doubt that a lobotomized person, who is unable to reason properly, is able to feel love, at least the way we know it.

Also, if you damage the nucleus accumbens or the ventral tegmental area, I doubt that a person will be able to reason properly.

We have all the tools we need inside ourselves.

It´s completely stupid to try to isolate these tools and use them individually, while they were supposed to be used together!

Psychopaths, who are mostly only rational and are unable to feel emotions properly, can kill.

Very emotional people, who are unable to properly use reason, can kill as well.

As always, the key is balance...Always balance.

Cheers,

Raf.

[Tony]

Balance is the key.
There seems to be three qualities of our being: Purity, Knowing and Love. (you may see this differently).
Logic seems to be connected to Knowing. But if we use just Knowing without Purity we will just chase after
our tails. When this Knowing knows its own Purity, then there is nothing more to Know.

Knowing one's Purity, joy must arise. The wish to express this joy, must be Love.

Is this not Logical?