Teachers (Revisited)

[Fred Steeves]

There has been an ongoing conversation/debate here, largely between me and Pie'n'eal (Tony), who'm I have much love and respect for by the way. Often times I feel we are saying basically the same thing, but maybe talking past each other. So please bear with me, but I want to try it one more time.

This is the direction I wish to come at this from. My official schooling really ended at the end of 8th grade, with 6th, 7th and 8th being private schools thank god. 9th and 10th were spent mostly skipping school, and smoking pot. So that was that. I knew the 3 R's atleast. Reading, Riting, and Rithmatic.:p I had the required teaching, and that teaching had come to it's completion.

As is evidenced though, it doesn't take a Master's Degree to to be able to effectively communicate with others, even on a forum with this high level of intellect.

For a decade or more I delved pretty deeply into Zen and Buddhism. This was a much needed teaching that I could not do myself, and I'm grateful for it. Those teachings still guide much of what I do day to day, although it's not so much of a conscious endeavor, it's now a way of life. Those great teachings gave me the gift of the 3 R's of the spiritual realms.

As is evidensed though, it doesn't take a lifetime in a monastery to be able to effectively communicate with others, even on a forum with this high level of spirituality.

So here's my bottom line with teachers. A teacher is needed to teach basic music notes and theory, but even graduates of Juilliard will likely never be mistaken for a Mozart or a Bach. It takes them just so far, and then it's basically "that's it kid, that's all we've got, the rest is up to you now".

I see people who choose to be lifetime academics, and I feel sorry for them. Their innate potential is forever limited to what acadamia has to offer, much of which is memorization, and not creativity.

I feel the same even with the greatest of Spiritual Teachings. I have all the respect in the world for them, of course, but I also think that they can be taken too far, and with too much diligence. Just like at Juilliard, even the best of teachers there would have to admit to even the brightest graduating student:

"Kid, that's all we've got, if you wanna be a Mozart, the rest is up to you now".

Cheers,
Fred

[another bob]

For a decade or more I delved pretty deeply into Zen and Buddhism. This was a much needed teaching that I could not do myself, and I'm grateful for it. Those teachings still guide much of what I do day to day, although it's not so much of a conscious endeavor, it's now a way of life. Those great teachings gave me the gift of the 3 R's of the spiritual realms.


Hiya Fred!

Normally, I don't like to post long articles, but because of your stated interest, I thought you might find the following talk worthwhile to ponder over. About 3/4 of the way down, the author, the renowned Chan (Zen) Master Sheng-yen, echoes your OP sentiment by noting:

Even an outstanding Chan master able to bring his student to this place will find himself unable to help any more. Although he has been to the other side, he cannot take you there with him, just as a mother's own eating and drinking cannot take the hunger away from the child who refuses to eat or drink. At that time, the only help he can give you is to tell you to discard all your experiences, your knowledge, and all the things and ideas that you think are the most reliable, most magnificent, and most real, even including your hope to get to the world of Chan. It is as if you were entering a sacred building. Before you do so, the guard tells you that you must not carry any weapon, that you must take off all your clothes, and that not only must you be completely naked you also have to leave your body and soul behind. Then you can enter.


The talk clears up a lot of misunderstanding about the spiritual practice of Zen, including the mistaken notion expressed here on the forum recently that Buddhism is all about achieving some kind of "merger with Buddha", or attaining "Oneness". He lays out 3 distinct stages of development in the clearest fashion I've ever encountered, and so I offer it here to you for your perusal, and that of any other members with similar interest:


"I wish to start by telling you that Chan is not the same as knowledge, yet knowledge is not completely apart from Chan. Chan is not just religion, yet the achievements of religion can be reached through Chan. Chan is not philosophy, yet philosophy can in no way exceed the scope of Chan. Chan is not science, yet the spirit of emphasising reality and experience is also required in Chan. Therefore, please do not try to explore the content of Chan motivated by mere curiosity, for Chan is not something new brought here [to the USA] by Orientals; Chan is present everywhere, in space without limit and time without end. However before the Buddhism of the East was propagated in the western world, the people of the West never knew of the existence of Chan. The Chan taught by Orientals in the West is not, in fact, the real Chan. It is the method to realise Chan. Chan was first discovered by a prince named Siddhartha Gautama (called Shakyamuni after his enlightenment), who was born in India about 2500 years ago. After he became enlightened and was called a Buddha, he taught us the method to know Chan. This method was transmitted from India to China, and then to Japan. In India it was called dhyana, which is pronounced 'Chan' in Chinese, and 'Zen' in Japanese. Actually, all three are identical.

Chan has universal and eternal existence. It has no need of any teacher to transmit it; what is transmitted by teachers is just the method by which one can personally experience this Chan.

Some people mistakenly understand Chan to be some kind of mysterious experience; others think that one can attain supernatural powers through the experience of Chan. Of course, the process of practising Chan meditation may cause various kinds of strange occurrences on the level of mental and physical sensation; and also, through the practice of unifying body and mind, one may be able to attain the mental power to control or alter external things. But such phenomena, which are looked upon as mysteries of religion, are not the aim of Chan practice, because they can only satisfy one's curiosity or megalomania, and cannot solve the actual problems of peoples lives.

Chan starts from the root of the problem. It does not start with the idea of conquering the external social and material environments, but starts with gaining thorough knowledge of one's own self. The moment you know what your self is, this 'I' that you now take to be yourself will simultaneously disappear. We call this new knowledge of the notion of self 'enlightenment' or 'seeing ones basic nature'. This is the beginning of helping you to thoroughly solve real problems. In the end, you will discover that you the individual, together with the whole of existence, are but one totality which cannot be divided.

Because you yourself have imperfections, you therefore feel the environment is imperfect. It is like a mirror with an uneven surface, the images reflected in it are also distorted. Or, it is like the surface of water disturbed by ripples, the moon reflected in it is irregular and unsettled. If the surface of the mirror is clear and smooth, or if the air on the surface of the water is still and the ripples calmed, then the reflection in the mirror and the moon in the water will be clear and exact. Therefore, from the point of view of Chan, the major cause of the pain and misfortune suffered by humanity is not the treacherous environment of the world in which we live, nor the dreadful society of humankind, but the fact that we have never been able to recognise our basic nature. So the method of Chan is not to direct us to evade reality, nor to shut our eyes like the African ostrich when enemies come, and bury our heads in the sand, thinking all problems are solved. Chan is not a self-hypnotising idealism.

By the practise of Chan one can eliminate the 'I'; not only the selfish, small 'I', but also the large 'I', which in philosophy is called 'Truth' or 'the Essence'. Only then is there absolute freedom. Thus an accomplished Chan practitioner never feels that any responsibility is a burden, nor does he feel the pressure that the conditions of life exert on people. He only feels that he is perpetually bringing the vitality of life into full activity. This is the expression of absolute freedom. Therefore the life of Chan is inevitably normal and positive, happy and open. The reason for this is that the practise of Chan will continually provide you with a means to excavate your precious mine of wisdom. The deeper the excavation, the higher the wisdom that is attained, until eventually you obtain all the wisdom of the entire universe. At that time, there is not a single thing in all of time and space that is not contained within the scope of your wisdom. At that stage wisdom becomes absolute; and since it is absolute, the term wisdom serves no further purpose. To be sure, at that stage the 'I' that motivated you to pursue such things as fame, wealth and power, or to escape from suffering and danger, has completely disappeared. What is more, even the wisdom which eliminated your 'I' becomes an unnecessary concept to you.

Of course, from the viewpoint of sudden enlightenment it is very easy for a Chan practitioner to reach this stage; nevertheless before reaching the gate of sudden enlightenment one must exert a great deal of effort on the journey. Otherwise the methods of Chan would be useless.

The Three Stages of Chan Meditation
At present [1977], the methods of meditation that I am teaching in the United States are divided into three stages.

Stage 1: To Balance the Development of Body and Mind in order to Attain Mental and Physical Health
With regard to the body, we stress the demonstration and correction of the postures of walking, standing, sitting and reclining. At the same time we teach various methods of physical exercise for walking, standing, sitting and reclining. They are unique exercise methods combining Indian Hatha Yoga and Chinese Tao-yin, and can bring physical health as well as results in meditation. Thus, one who practises Chan and has obtained good results will definitely have a strong body capable of enduring hardship. For the mind we emphasise the elimination of impatience, suspicion, anxiety, fear and frustration, so as to establish a state of self-confidence, determination, optimism, peace and stability.

A good student, after five or ten lessons here, will reach the first stage and be able to obtain results in the above two areas. One of our student's reports stated: "This kind of Chan class is especially good for someone like myself who, by profession or habit, has been used to having the brain functioning just about every minute of the day. I often find this Chan sitting very helpful as rest or relief. So even for no greater purpose, this Chan class has been very useful and should be highly recommended." [from Chan Magazine Vol.1; No.1]

In the first lesson of each class, I always ask each of the students individually his or her purpose in learning Chan whether he or she hoped to benefit the body, or sought help for the mind. The answers show that the latter were in the majority. This indicates that people living in American society today, under the strain and pressure of the present environment, suffer excessive tension, and many have lost their mental balance. Some are so severely tense that they have to consult a psychiatrist. Among those who come to learn Chan, I have one woman student, an outstanding lecturer in a well-known university, who asked me at the first meeting if I could help to relieve her from tense and uneasy moods. I told her that for a Chan practitioner this is a very simple matter. After five lessons she felt that Chan was a great blessing to her life.

The method of the first stage is very simple. Mainly it requires you to relax all the muscles and nerves of your entire body, and concentrate your attention on the method you have just learned. Because the tension of your muscles and nerves affects the activity of the brain, the key is therefore to reduce the burden on your brain. When your wandering thoughts and illusions decrease, your brain will gradually get a little rest. As its need of blood is reduced, more blood will circulate through the entire body. Meanwhile, because of the relaxation of the brain, all the muscles also relax; thus your blood vessels expand, you feel comfortable all over, your spirit feels fresh and alert, and your mental responses are naturally lighter and more lively.

If one's object of study is just to acquire physical and mental balance, and not to study meditation proper, then one will probably feel that the completion of the first stage is enough; but many students are not content with this, and indeed, some from the outset are looking for the goal of the second stage.

Stage 2: From the Sense of the Small 'I'
The first stage only helps to bring concentration to your confused mind; but when you practise concentration, other scattered thoughts continue to appear in your mind - sometimes many, sometimes a few. The concept of your purpose in practising Chan is for mental and physical benefits. This is a stage where your concept is purely self-centred. There is no mention of philosophical ideals or religious experience. When you reach the second stage, it will enable you to liberate yourself from the narrow view of the 'I'. In the second stage you begin to enter the stage of meditation. When you practise the method of cultivation taught by your teacher, you will enlarge the sphere of the outlook of the small 'I' until it coincides with time and space. The small 'I' merges into the entire universe, forming a unity. When you look inward, the depth is limitless; when you look outward, the breadth is limitless. Since you have joined and become one with universe, the world of your own body and mind no longer exists. What exists is the universe, which is infinite in depth and breadth. You yourself are not only a part of the universe, but also the totality of it.

When you achieve this experience in your Chan sitting, you will then understand what is meant in philosophy by principle or basic substance, and also what phenomenal existence is. All phenomena are the floating surface or perceptible layer of basic substance. From the shallow point of view, the phenomena have innumerable distinctions and each has different characteristics; in reality, the differences between the phenomena do not impair the totality of basic substance. For instance, on the planet on which we live, there are countless kinds of animals, plants, minerals, vapours, liquids and solids which incessantly arise, change and perish, constituting the phenomena of the earth. However, seen from another planet, the earth is just one body. When we have the opportunity to free ourselves from the bonds of self or subjective views, to assume the objective standpoint of the whole and observe all phenomena together, we can eliminate opposing and contradictory views. Take a tree as an example. From the standpoint of the individual leaves and branches, they are all distinct from one another, and can also be perceived to rub against one another. However, from the standpoint of the trunk and roots, all parts without exception are of one unified whole.

In the course of this second stage, you have realised that you not only have an independent individual existence, but you also have a universal existence together with this limitlessly deep and wide cosmos, and therefore the confrontation between you and the surrounding environment exists no more. Discontent, hatred, love, desire - in other words dispositions of rejecting and grasping disappear naturally, and you sense a feeling of peace and satisfaction. Because you have eliminated the selfish small 'I', you are able to look upon all people and all things as if they were phenomena produced from your own substance, and so you will love all people and all things in the same way you loved and watched over your small 'I'. This is the mind of a great philosopher.

Naturally, all great religious figures must have gone through the experiences of this second stage, where they free themselves from the confines of the small 'I', and discover that their own basic substance is none other than the existence of the entire universe, and that there is no difference between themselves and everything in the universe. All phenomena are manifestations of their own nature. They have the duty to love and watch over all things, and also have the right to manage them; just as we have the duty to love our own children and the right to manage the property that belongs to us This is the formation of the relationship between the deity and the multitude of things he created. Such people personify the basic substance of the universe which they experience through meditation, and create the belief in God. They substantiate this idea of a large 'I' the self-love of God and formulate the mission of being a saviour of the world or an emissary of God. They unify all phenomena and look upon them as objects that were created and are to be saved. Consequently, some religious figures think that the basic nature of their souls is the same as that of the deity, and that they are human incarnations of the deity. In this way, they consider themselves to be saviours of the world. Others think that although the basic nature of their souls is not identical to and inseparable from that of the deity, the phenomenon of their incarnation shows that they were sent to this world by God as messengers to promulgate God's intention.

Generally, when philosophers or religious figures reach the height of the second stage, they feel that their wisdom is unlimited, their power is infinite, and their lives are eternal. When the scope of the 'I' enlarges, self-confidence accordingly gets stronger, but this stronger self-confidence is in fact merely the unlimited escalation of a sense of superiority and pride. It is therefore termed large 'I', and does not mean that absolute freedom from vexations has been achieved.

Stage 3: From the Large 'I' to No 'I'
When one reaches the height of the second stage, he realises that the concept of the 'I' does not exist. But he has only abandoned the small 'I' and has not negated the concept of basic substance or the existence of God; you may call it Truth, the one and only God, the Almighty, the Unchanging Principle, or even the Buddha of Buddhism. If you think that it is real, then you are still in the realm of the big 'I' and have not left the sphere of philosophy and religion.

I must emphasise that the content of Chan does not appear until the third stage. Chan is unimaginable. It is neither a concept nor a feeling. It is impossible to describe it in any terms abstract or concrete. Though meditation is ordinarily the proper path leading to Chan, once you have arrived at the door of Chan, even the method of meditation is rendered useless. It is like using various means of transportation on a long journey. When you reach the final destination, you find a steep cliff standing right in front of you. It is so high you cannot see its top, and so wide that its side cannot be found. At this time a person who has been to the other side of the cliff comes to tell you that on the other side lies the world of Chan. When you scale it you will enter Chan. And yet, he tells you not to depend on any means of transportation to fly over, bypass, or penetrate through it, because it is infinity itself, and there is no way to scale it.

Even an outstanding Chan master able to bring his student to this place will find himself unable to help any more. Although he has been to the other side, he cannot take you there with him, just as a mother's own eating and drinking cannot take the hunger away from the child who refuses to eat or drink. At that time, the only help he can give you is to tell you to discard all your experiences, your knowledge, and all the things and ideas that you think are the most reliable, most magnificent, and most real, even including your hope to get to the world of Chan. It is as if you were entering a sacred building. Before you do so, the guard tells you that you must not carry any weapon, that you must take off all your clothes, and that not only must you be completely naked you also have to leave your body and soul behind. Then you can enter.

Because Chan is a world where there is no self, if there is still any attachment at all in your mind, there is no way you can harmonise with Chan. Therefore, Chan is the territory of the wise, and the territory of the brave. Not being wise, one would not believe that after he has abandoned all attachments another world could appear before him. Not being brave, one would find it very hard to discard everything he has accumulated in this life - ideals and knowledge, spiritual and material things.

You may ask what benefit we would get after making such great sacrifices to enter the world of Chan. Let me tell you that you cannot enter the world of Chan while this question is still with you. Looking for benefit, either for self or for others, is in the 'I'-oriented stage. The sixth patriarch of the Chan sect in China taught people that the way to enter the enlightenment of the realm of Chan is: "Neither think of good, nor think of evil". That is, you eliminate such opposing views as self and other, inner and outer, being and non-being, large and small, good and bad, vexation and Bodhi, illusion and enlightenment, false and true, or suffering of birth and death and joy of emancipation. Only then can the realm of Chan or enlightenment appear and bring you a new life.

This new life you have had all along, and yet you have never discovered it. In the Chan sect we call it your original face before you were born. This is not the small 'I' of body and mind, nor the large 'I' of the world and universe. This is absolute freedom, free from the misery of all vexations and bonds. To enter Chan as described above is not easy. Many people have studied and meditated for decades, and still have never gained entrance to the door of Chan. It will not be difficult, however, when your causes and conditions are mature, or if you happen to have a good Chan master who guides you with full attention. This Master may adopt various attitudes, actions and verbal expressions which may seem ridiculous to you, as indirect means of assisting you to achieve your goal speedily. And when the Master tells you that you have now entered the gate, you will suddenly realise that there is no gate to Chan. Before entering, you cannot see where the gate is, and after entering you find the gate non-existent. Otherwise there will be the distinction between inside and outside, the enlightened and the ignorant; and if there are such distinctions, then it is still not Chan.

When you are in the second stage, although you feel that the 'I' does not exist, the basic substance of the universe, or the Supreme Truth, still exists. Although you recognize that all the different phenomena are the extension of this basic substance or Supreme Truth, yet there still exists the opposition of basic substance versus external phenomena. Not until the distinctions of all phenomena disappear, and everything goes back to truth or Heaven, will you have absolute peace and unity. As long as the world of phenomena is still active, you cannot do away with conflict, calamity, suffering and crime. Therefore, although philosophers and religious figures perceive the peace of the original substance, they still have no way to get rid of the confusion of phenomena.

One who has entered Chan does not see basic substance and phenomena as two things standing in opposition to each other. They cannot even be illustrated as being the back and palm of a hand. This is because phenomena themselves are basic substance, and apart from phenomena there is no basic substance to be found. The reality of basic substance exists right in the unreality of phenomena, which change ceaselessly and have no constant form. This is the Truth. When you experience that phenomena are unreal, you will then be free from the concept of self and other, right and wrong, and free from the vexations of greed, hatred, worry and pride. You will not need to search for peace and purity, and you will not need to detest evil vexations and impurity. Although you live in the world of phenomenal reality, to you, any environment is a Buddha's Pure Land. To an unenlightened person, you are but an ordinary person. To you, all ordinary people are identical with Buddha. You will feel that your own self-nature is the same as that of all Buddhas, and the self-nature of Buddhas is universal throughout time and space. You will spontaneously apply your wisdom and wealth, giving to all sentient beings everywhere, throughout all time and space.

What I have said reveals a small part of the feeling of one who has entered the enlightened realm of Chan, and is also the course which one follows in order to depart from the small 'I' and arrive at the stage of no 'I'. Nevertheless, a newly enlightened person who has just entered the realm of Chan is still at the starting section of the entire passage of Chan. He is like one who has just had his first sip of port. He knows its taste now, but the wine will not remain in his mouth forever. The purpose of Chan is not just to let you take one sip, but to have your entire life merge with and dissolve in the wine, even, to the point that you forget the existence of yourself and the wine. After tasting the first sip of egolessness, how much farther must one travel?

What kinds of things remain to be seen?

I will tell you when I have the chance!"

1977

[Limor Wolf]

Hi Fred, I understand what you are saying, and I share your sentiment. we are students of life, there is no day passing without learning something, and the gift of being an aware person is even more clarifying and so very much gratifying.
A teacher, for me, is not a one who 'teach' , but a one who shares his human experience with another and out of that an insight is being born. it happened to me many times, also with Pie'n'eal's posts (talk about the devil :)


However,
Some people need teachers, some people need to teach, and some people like to be self-educated, as long as each of those meets the suitable other, all is fine and well.


~&^*~&*

Limor

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Love your take Fred.

IMO: A good teacher, like a good therapist, gives you tools and sends you on your way.

When one continues year after year to consistently go back to a teacher with every little problem, IMO, they are giving away their own power. The only way to ride a bike is to eventually take off the training wheels - if one keeps depending on the training wheels, one will never acquire their own balance.

[Fred Steeves]

Hi Bob, I'm going to have to read that bad boy after work dear sir, but I like what I saw so far in the first couple of paragraphs.

Hi Limor, of course, never let it be said that I'm anti teacher.:) Hell, if my next door neighbor were a Zen Master, you can bet I'd be hitting him/her up for over the fence conversation whenever possible. They just better not get preachy, or I'd whack em one.(LOL)

[Limor Wolf]

Hi Fred, as someone who has preaching tendencies, I oftentimes stop myself right before I am about to deliver it to another person, and than I preach to myself about not preaching to others... You know what I mean?

[<8>]

Thanks Fred..

I have also had lovely conversations with our dear Pie'n'eal (Tony), so I think I understand what youre saying here.
I believe there is a misinterpretation we easily overlook because we mistake "Understanding" for "Knowing".

"Don't mistake understanding for knowing" Because the knowing only arise after you had the experience.
That said, I have experienced people that seem to understand a lot, but they don't have a clue when you go deeper with the conversation.
And in my view is because they don't have the experience, they just have the understanding, and somethings you can't put words on.

I don't assume anything becuse I can only know what I have experienced so far, what I have experienced as of late.
Is when it makes the most sense to us, and we feel that we want to explain, to help out.
We are actually helping ourselves, because most of the time the person we trying to help are not listening, that person have already made his/her mind up no matter what we say.
But through going deeper into the subject in question, there is an realization how simple things really are when you have the experience.

So I have learned to not get caught up, because we rarely know the same thing, we all have our own unique experience, and that's the beauty of this experience I guess.



..8..

[Falcor]

i have read a few times from highly devoted spiritual people that they have reached some of the highest levels of awareness, but have trouble getting through to the next level

with some that are just on the cusp of breaking through to a higher level, just the presence of a teacher can bring them to the realization of that next level.

i have also heard stories of enlightened yogi's emanating much power from their solar plexus chakra to bring others into a meeting with their higher self. granted the person must be ready for the experience, i believe a teacher can be helpful at all levels of progress.

at the end of the day.....we all find our way back differently. but i do believe the quickest way to grow is through interaction with others :)

[Fred Steeves]

we all find our way back differently. but i do believe the quickest way to grow is through interaction with others :)

Bingo Falcor!!! Interaction here at Avalon has been the mother of all teachers for me. And you know what? I never ever saw it coming.

I actually look for teachers everywhere I go, except I look at it more as "those who help me remember". Something as simple as an odd look from one of my dogs at the right time can be such a piece to the great puzzle. If you want to get right down to brass tacks, we are surrounded by teachers every moment of our lives, we just need take notice

Oh sh!t, Limor, am I preaching???http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/smiley-slapping.gif

[Falcor]

"Don't mistake understanding for knowing" Because the knowing only arise after you had the experience.
That said, I have experienced people that seem to understand a lot, but they don't have a clue when you go deeper with the conversation.
And in my view is because they don't have the experience, they just have the understanding, and somethings you can't put words on.

this can be very true. i have had many go out of their way to tell me about how theyre into spirituality, but as they continue to talk and all i hear is an ego's idea, their level of awareness presents itself to me.

the mind can know about many things. it can read lots of books, it can claim to have lots of knowledge, it can form many opinions. but thats the limit of the mind, it can only 'know about'

to truly know, is to be that which is known.



So I have learned to not get caught up, because we rarely know the same thing, we all have our own unique experience, and that's the beauty of this experience I guess.
..8..

funny you say, it seems to me the only thing that we can ever truly know, is the same thing :)

[<8>]

"Don't mistake understanding for knowing" Because the knowing only arise after you had the experience.
That said, I have experienced people that seem to understand a lot, but they don't have a clue when you go deeper with the conversation.
And in my view is because they don't have the experience, they just have the understanding, and somethings you can't put words on.

this can be very true. i have had many go out of their way to tell me about how theyre into spirituality, but as they continue to talk and all i hear is an ego's idea, their level of awareness presents itself to me.

the mind can know about many things. it can read lots of books, it can claim to have lots of knowledge, it can form many opinions. but thats the limit of the mind, it can only 'know about'

to truly know, is to be that which is known.



So I have learned to not get caught up, because we rarely know the same thing, we all have our own unique experience, and that's the beauty of this experience I guess.
..8..

funny you say, it seems to me the only thing that we can ever truly know, is the same thing :)





Thanks...



funny you say, it seems to me the only thing that we can ever truly know, is the same thing

Do you care to elaborate on this my friend?, because from the view of the human experience we all seem to have a slightly different view, even if we had the same experience.
The only experience that seems the same, is when we experience who we really are. An that is funny, because you can't really explain it with words..




..8..

[Carmen]

Great thread Fred. I quite often ponder on what or who is a good teacher. I personally get miles of inspiration from ordinary people who do extra-ordinary things. I love other people's stories of what they have done. This inspires me. Endless quotes of great masters are great but if they are not applied or able to be applied in every day life, then they are not much use to me. Stuff has to 'work', not just be philosophy.

Also, teachers have to be 'nice' in general. I'm too soft or too stubborn to put up with the old school of 'thou shalt!' or to be whacked over the head to learn something. I blossom with encouragement and acceptance. Harshness just means my barriers go up. If a teacher has 'money in the bank with me' my saying for a certain level of love and trust, then I don't mind being 'pulledup' over something I'm doing incorrectly. Bullies I particularly dislike, and a bullying teacher who puts people down is one of my biases!

Apart from being a long time student in the Ramtha school, I learn most from reading and then applying what I read. I'm the best experiment I have. I really love the thought that whatever I learn now or overcome now in this life, is with me for all time. So, I get to re-invent myself constantly, it only gets better. I love this sense of wonder and newness to a life that's gotten unstuck in many ways,from the attitudes that have limited me. It's ongoing though, I'll never be through with it.

[Mark]

Great topic, Fred. Teachers are indeed valuable, but even the best teachers will say that they are still students themselves. I appreciate all of my teachers, those who share their wisdom and experiences that have led me further along the path determined by my own experiences. PA and places such as this are wonderful teaching tools, the interplay of souls is ever fateful.



Because Chan is a world where there is no self, if there is still any attachment at all in your mind, there is no way you can harmonise with Chan. Therefore, Chan is the territory of the wise, and the territory of the brave. Not being wise, one would not believe that after he has abandoned all attachments another world could appear before him. Not being brave, one would find it very hard to discard everything he has accumulated in this life - ideals and knowledge, spiritual and material things.

Absolutely priceless write. Some should gain some benefit from you sharing it here, Bob.

It is possible to enter into this perception, have this experience, and then return to a normative life. But something is then different within. Certain knowledge of what lies beyond pervades the mental and spiritual and finds expression in all aspects of life. If the choice is made to carry on as previously, it is conscious and becomes an act of constant controlled folly, as Casteneda's Don Juan might explain. And yet, this explanation is limited, as the Yaqui sorcerer's insistence that compassion is an act of weakness negates the heart-centered realization of Samadhi and the Nirvanic state resulting from this infusion of what can only be described as experiential love (for lack of more descriptive term), completeness, oneness, wholeness, as the totality of consciousness.

[Limor Wolf]

I appreciate your choose of words, Carmen - "I re-invent myself constantly" , and I truly find myself empathic to your last sentence. In so many ways it is like untying the knot, the mixture of things we gatherd until an advanced stage in our lives, but are of no use to us now. I guess an interesting teacher can be a one who demonstrate things or have his own experience rather than one who only has the diagnosis and spill it out. although, in no way I reject anyone's observations, since an embodied diamond can be hidden in the most suprising places.


Originally posted by Fred:
Oh sh!t, Limor, am I preaching???

Before I answer that I need to know if you are identifying more with the right smiley, or the left one
A lot of psychology is hiding over there :cool:

[markpierre]

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecclesiastes I think. Gosh, who wrote that?

Someone here has an answer and can convey volumes of data to support a purposeless answer.
But did they hear what it said? Or care that there's a message?

At what point does the recognition of the repetition of the lessons become evident in as many languages as we can learn?
And the message gets in deep enough to begin to change the structure of the cells,
where all of the the mistaken memory and misinterpreted information has been stored and mutated into paralysis.
And you literally physically, emotionally, spiritually and energetically become the 'object' of the lesson,
and you can no longer 'be' something else?

'Learning' is unlearning what we thought we knew. Nothing more. And then we're free.

It's all a slow and excruciating and eventually thankfully a fast and exciting process of reestablishing communication
from totality and through the mind and down into the earth and back out through the heart.
That covers most of the 'teachings' doesn't it?

And then what do you do? Find another way to say it? For the benefit of whom?

Here are my teachers:
Anxiety, misguided trust and fraudulent doctors, Jim Beam, Bruce Springsteen, an illuminated car salesman,
abandonment, betrayal, devastation, my ignorant self,
discipline, mySelf, and Providence.
And a whole lot of accumulated irrelevant and largely false information that crushed me into letting go.
That was a different sort of path. Or very ordinary.

This is a weird place.

[Fred Steeves]

Originally posted by Fred:
Oh sh!t, Limor, am I preaching???

Before I answer that I need to know if you are identifying more with the right smiley, or the left one
A lot of psychology is hiding over there :cool:

Good question Limor, it's both actually. The good Fred slapping the bad Fred. Uh oh, have I just revealed my schizophrenic side?

http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/smiley-slapping.gif

[13th Warrior]

we all find our way back differently. but i do believe the quickest way to grow is through interaction with others :)

Bingo Falcor!!! Interaction here at Avalon has been the mother of all teachers for me. And you know what? I never ever saw it coming.

I actually look for teachers everywhere I go, except I look at it more as "those who help me remember". Something as simple as an odd look from one of my dogs at the right time can be such a piece to the great puzzle. If you want to get right down to brass tacks, we are surrounded by teachers every moment of our lives, we just need take notice

Oh sh!t, Limor, am I preaching???http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/smiley-slapping.gif


This is true for me as well; if you're preaching then you're preaching to the choir...

I'm glad you said it though; i don't see it said often enough!

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Fred:
Oh sh!t, Limor, am I preaching???

Before I answer that I need to know if you are identifying more with the right smiley, or the left one
A lot of psychology is hiding over there :cool:

Good question Limor, it's both actually. The good Fred slapping the bad Fred. Uh oh, have I just revealed my schizophrenic side?

http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/smiley-slapping.gif

No, only the many facets that we all have. Thank you

[Jenci]

I feel the same even with the greatest of Spiritual Teachings. I have all the respect in the world for them, of course, but I also think that they can be taken too far, and with too much diligence. Just like at Juilliard, even the best of teachers there would have to admit to even the brightest graduating student:

"Kid, that's all we've got, if you wanna be a Mozart, the rest is up to you now".



Hi Fred,

We are talking here about "learning" how to realise our true nature, so no we don't need a teacher because that would be a direct contradiction to what we are "learning".


....but to get to the point where we understand that we don't need a teacher for this, we may need a teacher to help us understand that we don't need a teacher.


We can only realise our true nature in the absence of everything else, which is why everything has to go to do this - all needs, all desires, all concepts, all ideas, all beliefs etc. They all have to go!

Just saying "I don't need a teacher" will not work here because all that will happen is the attachment that we have to a teacher will transfer to something else. We need to get to the point where the need for the teacher falls away and in the absence of the need for a teacher, something else will be revealed. :)

The way to move to the point of the need for the teacher falling away, is to uncover what is driving the need. Our beliefs can be very powerful and keep us attached to many things, fuelling desires and needs. Some beliefs can be incredibly subtle and we may not even realise that we have a belief which is causing us to act in a certain way.

A good starting point to uncovering the belief for the need for a teacher is to notice any resistance to the idea that one is not needed. Our resistance can speak volumes if we pay attention to it.


Sometimes a belief, which is doing the holding on, is buried beneath lots of other beliefs and it may take a lot of sincerity, honesty and patience to dig down and uncover it and then pull it up by the root.

Jeanette

¤=[Post Update]=¤



And a whole lot of accumulated irrelevant and largely false information that crushed me into letting go.
That was a different sort of path. Or very ordinary.



That was very ordinary, Mark ! :)


Jeanette

[Jenci]

Stage 3: From the Large 'I' to No 'I'
When one reaches the height of the second stage, he realises that the concept of the 'I' does not exist. But he has only abandoned the small 'I' and has not negated the concept of basic substance or the existence of God; you may call it Truth, the one and only God, the Almighty, the Unchanging Principle, or even the Buddha of Buddhism. If you think that it is real, then you are still in the realm of the big 'I' and have not left the sphere of philosophy and religion.



That's an excellent piece of writing, Bob. Well worth reading. Thanks for posting.
Jeanette

[Fred Steeves]

Hey Bob, after all that, I still find the one paragraph you pointed out the best, especially the last line.




It is as if you were entering a sacred building. Before you do so, the guard tells you that you must not carry any weapon, that you must take off all your clothes, and that not only must you be completely naked you also have to leave your body and soul behind. Then you can enter.



Nobody enters, not even yourself. That's a lot to leave behind there brother! (LOL) Of course as markpierre put it, as only he can:
And a whole lot of accumulated irrelevant and largely false information that
crushed me into letting go.

That makes things "easier", as I prefer the old fashioned being crushed method meself.http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/thumb.gifIt's a long hard road, but with a very dramatic ending.

[another bob]

And yet, this explanation is limited, as the Yaqui sorcerer's insistence that compassion is an act of weakness negates the heart-centered realization of Samadhi and the Nirvanic state resulting from this infusion of what can only be described as experiential love (for lack of more descriptive term), completeness, oneness, wholeness, as the totality of consciousness.

Thanks for your perceptive comments, Brother, and yes, the goal is not escape, but returning to the marketplace with both hands and heart open, and mind clear enough to respond spontaneously to whatever arises, without pre-condition or hesitation.

As far as Don Juan and compassion, I suspect that was Castaneda's insertion, and a misundertsanding at that, since it is not in congruence with a real way of wisdom. He may have been referring to what Chogyam Trungpa characterized as "Idiot Compassion".



Pema Chodron: Idiot compassion is a great expression, which was actually coined by Trungpa Rinpoche. It refers to something we all do a lot of and call it compassion. In some ways, it's whats called enabling. It's the general tendency to give people what they want because you can't bear to see them suffering. Basically, you're not giving them what they need. You're trying to get away from your feeling of I can't bear to see them suffering. In other words, you're doing it for yourself. You're not really doing it for them.

When you get clear on this kind of thing, setting good boundaries and so forth, you know that if someone is violent, for instance, and is being violent towards you —to use that as the example— it's not the compassionate thing to keep allowing that to happen, allowing someone to keep being able to feed their violence and their aggression. So of course, they're going to freak out and be extremely upset. And it will be quite difficult for you to go through the process of actually leaving the situation. But that's the compassionate thing to do.

It's the compassionate thing to do for yourself, because you're part of that dynamic, and before you always stayed. So now you're going to do something frightening, groundless, and quite different. But it's the compassionate thing to do for yourself, rather than stay in a demeaning, destructive, abusive relationship.

And it's the most compassionate thing you can do for them too. They will certainly not thank you for it, and they will certainly not be glad. They'll go through a lot. But if there's any chance for them to wake up or start to work on their side of the problem, their abusive behavior or whatever it might be, that's the only chance, is for you to actually draw the line and get out of there.

We all know a lot of stories of people who had to hit that kind of bottom, where the people that they loved stopped giving them the wrong kind of compassion and just walked out. Then sometimes that wakes a person up and they start to do what they need to do.


:yo:

[deridan]

its the blindness induced by language.
anycase, came once apon a 'matrix descriptor' where it pushes the "talking/moving" past each other to mere factors of 'personal(inborn)' tendency.{nothing to bother/worry about}
--for the above sentence:-what it comes down to is where we look for cues , this being different per individual- sothat we may be quite blind towards each other as a natural thing-


anyanycase, a system is normally so complex that u can throw my descriptor in there amongst others , all that u know is that the many 'tending-factors',
bring about the -occurance-

it has nothing to do with education,my explicit opinion

[another bob]

Hey Bob, after all that, I still find the one paragraph you pointed out the best, especially the last line.




It is as if you were entering a sacred building. Before you do so, the guard tells you that you must not carry any weapon, that you must take off all your clothes, and that not only must you be completely naked you also have to leave your body and soul behind. Then you can enter.



Nobody enters, not even yourself. That's a lot to leave behind there brother!

And also why so few are willing to go all the way, but eventually, one finds there's no other option, and so takes that leap into the unknown.

Now there's a ride!

:yo:

[mahalall]

There is much to the old schools and uni's where students and teachers did not gain entry for having a long alphabet after their name but on their presence.

A teacher took me home this weekend,
and whilst i basked in his sunshine,
of induced Samadhi,
he said something,
that made me smile on Avalon,

"Within the scale of the life of the cosmos, a human life is no more than a tiny blip. Each one of us is a visitor to this planet, a guest, who has only a finite time to stay. What great folly could there be than to spend this short time lonely, unhappy, and in conflict with or fellow visitors? Far better, surely, to use our short time in pursuing a meaningful life, enriched by a sense of connection with and service toward others"

(Dalai Lama.Manchester, 17/06/12)

[Fred Steeves]

Nobody enters, not even yourself. That's a lot to leave behind there brother!

And also why so few are willing to go all the way, but eventually, one finds there's no other option, and so takes that leap into the unknown.

Now there's a ride!

:yo:

Right. When one blinks at the moment of truth, it's like this:

ZGcxegx8Z34

And when they just say f**k it, let er rip, it's like this (Language)

H_rfvcNYUks

Of course our friends are there to greet us once we've caught our breath.http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif

[Fred Steeves]

Great topic, Fred. Teachers are indeed valuable, but even the best teachers will say that they are still students themselves. I appreciate all of my teachers, those who share their wisdom and experiences that have led me further along the path determined by my own experiences. PA and places such as this are wonderful teaching tools, the interplay of souls is ever fateful.


It's so cool to see fellow dissenters come straggling back home to Avalon Mark! We seem to be seeing things a bit differently now, each in their own accord huh?

Yes, I appreciate all of my teachers too. Especially the ones I have hated, or that still seemingly torment me. It's going to be drinks on the house for those old buzzards when I get home...

[ringwood]

Anyone read Seth Godin's manifesto about the overhaul needed in the education system (Stop stealing our dreams)?

Some great ideas about the paradigm shift needed in schools & with teachers.

[Carmen]

No, I haven't, but there sure as hell needs to be a shift in that cruddy system!!

[Mark]

Thanks for your perceptive comments, Brother, and yes, the goal is not escape, but returning to the marketplace with both hands and heart open, and mind clear enough to respond spontaneously to whatever arises, without pre-condition or hesitation.

Interesting. I wrote a paragraph, something strange happened and it just disappeared. And so again.

Yes. That clarity of mind that occurs following a chan/zen experience can indeed give one the capacity to act according to necessity as you say, "without pre-condition or hesitation". Upon immersion with that sea of something, somewhere beyond, within, outside, the return finds the synapses of the neural net wiped clean of the emotional content. It is as if the hypothalamus has been reprogrammed. It still works, emotion can be raised consciously, but the previous connects made in the mind that tied anger, hate, sadness, jealousy, envy and all the others to specific memories of people, events and things are gone. A particular aspect of your quote that I really resonated to was the sort-of underlying and gentle statement that Enlightenment is not an instant thing, you don't become the Buddha directly after the event. The patterns of thinking and acting are still there, just not connected to emotion. This is where continued practice and meditation come into play, as, by doing so, it is possible to re-program and train the mind. It is much easier to do when there is no emotional kick anymore to suffuse the body and demand unthinking action or fight or flight responses.



As far as Don Juan and compassion, I suspect that was Castaneda's insertion, and a misundertsanding at that, since it is not in congruence with a real way of wisdom. He may have been referring to what Chogyam Trungpa characterized as "Idiot Compassion".

I really hope so. But there are a couple of places in the series of novels where I am not sure. In essence, the path that Don Juan taught Casteneda was a lonely path, there was a point at which he instructed Casteneda that in order to gain the power he would need to progress, a sorcerer or man of power would have to steal energy back from his children, if he had them. The way that Don Juan spoke of it was quite unfeeling, he even stated that they probably wouldn't use it anyway, as most people live unremarkable lives. The nature of the socerers themselves, all of the apprentices, the adventures that Casteneda had were all markedly 'beyond' good and evil, events occurred of a questionable nature, for instance, Don Juan's first employment of controlled folly and his return to enslavement at a work camp, where his petty tyrant was killed by the end.

I do agree with you that compassion is indeed meaningful and your quote from Pema is a great illustration and pertinent for so many in varying degrees. The term, 'Idiot Compassion" is quite evocative!

[Fred Steeves]

The nature of the socerers themselves, all of the apprentices, the adventures that Casteneda had were all markedly 'beyond' good and evil, events occurred of a questionable nature, for instance, Don Juan's first employment of controlled folly and his return to enslavement at a work camp, where his petty tyrant was killed by the end.


That story Rahkyt, is easily in my top 5 of the Castaneda series. Is it true? I doubt it. I see the "Parable" the same as I see David and Goliath. The underlying Principal to me is no more powerful whether actually true or not.

But, what is certainly true to me, is that we all have our own petty tyrant/s moving in and out of our lives the whole way through, whether they be ourselves or others. Doesn't matter does it?

In the end, we either jump or we don't.

[mosquito]

Teach without teaching - a Daoist maxim I always endeavour to follow. I've been humbled in the past 2 weeks by my students' feedback, thanking me for teaching them things I hadn't taught them !!!!

I agree with your basic premise Fred, we need teachers for certain key things, and then it's up to us. Life is my teacher, helped by all the people I meet on the way. And obviously, if I need to acquire a new skill, then a suitable teacher will be required.

BTW - Chan/Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism ARE NOT the same thing !!

[nonesuch]

Teachers of enlightenment report back after the fact from a realm beyond thought. Once put into words, their off-the-cuff memoirs on the matter are no longer accurate or true, all because they spilled the beans.

More often than not, language used to describe states of enlightenment tends to confuse sincere students. We use our minds to conceive of 'what it's like' to be enlightened, or worse, we turn the enlightened one's story into a dogma of rules and regs about 'how to get there.' The final nail in awareness's expensive mahogany coffin is driven home when a so-called teacher is persuaded by his or her own thoughts to offer the latter option themselves...procedural DVDs to follow.

A true teacher is their teaching. It's not their fine conduct, concepts or methods that do the work. Those addenda to learning are space, time and thought fillers; a pleasant or worrisome distraction while the more subtle activation is taking place. Whatever is 'beyond thought,’ it is not a person, idea or teaching per sé, but it can be shared through a field of energetic conductivity ('Oneness") that offers a sort of effortless, awakening 'Hello!' to that same Unmanifest in other humans et al who are within whistling range and still interested.

Several years ago, I took up a homegrown practice of meditation made up of sitting quietly with my eyes closed for a period of time with the intention of tuning my inner receiver to whatever/wherever was beyond thought. All I knew was something like that was reported as real and ever-present; and therefore, sitting right next to me just outside conscious awareness.

I went into this knowing the goal would be impossible for me to reach because the idea of me was a thought too large to fit through that door. I figured not to expect any conscious gain or benefit whatsoever from this meditation. I would sit for various periods of time with a calm acceptance that I had no hope of success and probably no responsibility for it, as well.

I didn't allow myself to even make an effort in the 'right' direction, such as attempting to 'quiet my mind' or 'do' a breathing technique. I theorized that such methods would trap me into believing I had any say in the matter of establishing a foothold in the unwalkable lands beyond thought. Though I realized I was knocking on a door that didn't exist, I assumed the demeanor of one with manners and knocked anyway since it was highly unlikely I'd be able to enter without an invitation.

When a meditation concluded I’d get up and move on to my next activity, often wasteful sloth, without trying to glean anything from the experience. I usually felt peaceful enough just from sitting to easily leave analysis behind.

Sometimes in moment of remembrance during work or play I would casually switch my attention from whatever I’d been doing toward the inconceivable void for however long I had available.

I can proudly say the results of that bohemian experiment were a resounding success as I have nothing to report!

In all seriousness, I achieved at least some of what I was intending. I am sometimes surprised by reverberations in consciousness from that practice still present years later. Try it yourself sometime if you don't believe me or sooner if you think you do.

After reflecting on my labors—and off-topic for this thread—I want to comment on the power of intention because it was the only method I employed in those meditations besides sitting still in a chair.

I have learned that clear, concise intent, coupled with an acknowledgment and some realization of my deeper nature or source, can move me, often quickly, into whatever teaching, direction or experience I choose, whether or not I’ve ever experienced it or even understood what it would be like before its manifestation. But it was not quite that simple or easy for me for a very long time.

Prior to dedicating myself to the hobby of tackling the realms beyond thought, I spent over ten years daily identifying and clearing literally thousands of unconscious limiting beliefs and patterns that contradicted my conscious held beliefs, choices and convictions. If nothing else, I was successful obsessive-compulsive. There are more efficient ways to do that today.

Before the thrill of discovering of an effective way to repattern limiting beliefs that finally worked for me, my attempts at changing my personal reality were as fun and breezy as the final works of Sisyphus on the hill from Hell. My repeated invocations of intent at that time—a cheerful drone of artificially-flavored affirmations—were a masochistic drill in effecting failure for me and my beautiful career as a flailing weirdo and part-time human.

My fruitless fits and lurches toward change using what I considered questionable (but "please, please, please be true, godammit!") magic were reminiscent of a ship at sea trying with all engines ablaze to move forward yet unable to do so because, unknown to the captain, its anchor was firmly caught in a bed of unseen boulders far beneath sun sprinkled waves. That was a perfectly acceptable location when our cursing captain had intended to hold the ship at rest, but now, when accidentally forgotten, the once cooperative anchor served only as an unexplainable and rage-inducing hindrance.

Yet, as I lay here reviewing the past from my sagging memory foam mattress pad, I have to admit after all the years endlessly running in circles in the dark, it all eventually—and I'm talking decades-lugged-and-stacked-upon-decades later—worked out wonderfully and just in and as the nick of time as we know it takes its final bow.

[Tony]

This is a personal opinion, on a very important subject. The modern world is in danger of killing a life line.

A guru-lineage, a teacher-lineage, an instruction manual, a guide-line are very important tools.
I speak as a spiritual student, an Olympic squad fencer, and as a classical artist,
all of these disciplines needed expert instruction, from expert instructors.

These are people that can go into the minutest detail of a subject, to help the student.
Not to brain wash them! If you mistrust everyone ...where does that leave you?

If you just want to muck around doing your own thing, that is up to you,
but at some stage we get stuck in a rut, and just cannot get out of it ourselves.

To solve a problem one needs something more powerful. Once we have the tools we are free to express.
But free to express what, and for whom? There are three answers to this: one you just do it for yourself,
two you do it to be admired, and three you take your turn in helping others.....become a teacher.

It is always, always always, your choice.

Tony

[Mark]

It's so cool to see fellow dissenters come straggling back home to Avalon Mark! We seem to be seeing things a bit differently now, each in their own accord huh?

yes, fred, that is so. i know, for me, this is an invaluable space because of the unique collection of souls. i was checking the alternate news here anyway a couple times a week so why not come out of retirement to interact with those here i appreciate? and there are a few of those, you among them.


That story Rahkyt, is easily in my top 5 of the Castaneda series. Is it true? I doubt it. I see the "Parable" the same as I see David and Goliath. The underlying Principal to me is no more powerful whether actually true or not.

But, what is certainly true to me, is that we all have our own petty tyrant/s moving in and out of our lives the whole way through, whether they be ourselves or others. Doesn't matter does it?

In the end, we either jump or we don't.

Whether it is true or not, the attitude underlying it is one that is beyond the pale as far as good/evil are concerned, imho. Don Juan sets out to learn how to humble himself but he does so knowing that the end of it would be the death of the petty tyrant. That is the point I was making regarding the worldview Don Juan was teaching Casteneda. I've got this big thick book that compiles articles, scholarly and other, talking about how Don Juan wasn't real and Casteneda made him up. It's called The Don Juan Papers. After reading about 1/3 of the book and skimming another 1/3 I chalked most of it up to academic haters who wished they'd met Don Juan themselves and came to the conclusion that my opinion was just as valid as theirs, as I was an academic also. And I come down on the side of Don Juan's existence. If he taught with parables, more power to him. All the best teachers do.

:wizard:

[<8>]

There are many people who claim to know what doors we shall open to find the truth, every door is important because there is a new experience to learn behind each door.
But no man can ever open the door for you, not even the teacher. Only you can decide to take that leap of faith or decide against. Only you can make that decision.

When you open the door to who you are, you will find there never were a teacher, because you were never really a student.
Life are leading us to the door that we need to open, the mind will tell you another story, but that's just what it is, another story.

[Hermite]

Wow. I wanted to hit the Thanks button for every post in this thread, but I decided to just say it "out loud" instead to each of you: Thank You. There is so much value here, I can't begin to describe it. I just KNOW it.

Next week I have to go to court and literally fight for my life and I plan to read this thread again and again beforehand. The messages here about compassion, learning, intent, and what really matters in the end, these will be my companions on that day. If I could think of another word for Thank You, I would put it here...

[markpierre]

Wow. I wanted to hit the Thanks button for every post in this thread, but I decided to just say it "out loud" instead to each of you: Thank You. There is so much value here, I can't begin to describe it. I just KNOW it.

Next week I have to go to court and literally fight for my life and I plan to read this thread again and again beforehand. The messages here about compassion, learning, intent, and what really matters in the end, these will be my companions on that day. If I could think of another word for Thank You, I would put it here...

I hope you come back to read this again, because I'd like to acknowledge that situation that you described. It's something that can tip your understanding into the realm of the miraculous,
and I really need to hear myself say it, because I know it and I forget the power of it.

Not to compare situations, but I'll illustrate using one of my own.
Where everything seemed to swoop in for a piece of the carrion (me) and the 'conspiracy' came from every possible direction. Strangely from the conspirators it was nothing personal.
Simply the way it works in the world, where everyone reaches in to grab their own with no thought of truth or justice or the consequences, and especially the role of honesty.
From all of the places we were taught to trust and place our loyalty. Virtually all of them.
Some of them didn't even know me.
Some did, and didn't care.

And the stakes to me were everything I had, everything I'd accomplished, the hope of ever seeing my family again
after 10 years of aching for them.
Sounds like a lot to lose.

And what occurred in me (and this the miracle as far as I'm concerned) was what I'd trained myself and taught for years.
I didn't resist. I didn't know how to anymore. Or I fully knew better.
But until that experience had never understood what that was.
And all I would have had to do to 'fix' it was to lie.

And even though everything was arranged to not allow me to defend myself anyway, I knew that I was right and true and honest in every regard.
With everyone's best interests at heart.
And I also knew that I had to refuse to defend the truth. The idea that truth needs defending is a lie. The implication that what is not the truth is real and must be defended against.

I don't think it applies to 'truth' as in 'did you take that coin or not?' or which alien is which? or did the evil archons enslave me?
I really don't give a s__t about that stuff. Stuff of the world is meaningless except for self discovery.
Sorry, you can't enslave a soul. Please learn to laugh at that idea.
But in the truth of me. Where I really began to find out 'truthfully' what I really was and represented.
In my relationship with myself.

I would think the point of that would not be obvious to most people, but i heard Jesus say once
"in my defenselessness, my safety lies'. And I must not have understood until it was real for me. I was self-branded innocent. I fully understood how I'd always condemned myself for what wasn't true. And why.
I had participated in lies. I hadn't really ever recognized the difference.

The 'outcome' was disastrous. Far worse than I could have ever imagined. But.........

I lost everything that had been keeping me from making the leap that everything I'd ever done was alluding to.
Such a loss. To learn absolutely what integrity is, and discover your own is priceless.
And to learn that if you have to sacrifice it for an outcome, the cost is just too high.
And it's funny. We'll still often do that just to save our pride.

I wish you the best with this exercise you've taken on. Any outcome is the right one. I hope you'll try to trust that.
These experiences are our teachers. We must be ready for the tough lessons.
Almost graduation time.

kind regards

[Selene]

This is such a beautiful thread; it’s a privilege to read each of you here. You are all wonderful teachers – whether you want to be that or not!

And you are each great teachers because you are each unashamedly students and practitioners of that which you seek.


A true teacher is their teaching. It's not their fine conduct, concepts or methods that do the work. Those addenda to learning are space, time and thought fillers; a pleasant or worrisome distraction while the more subtle activation is taking place.

Exactly. There is only so much that words can convey. Beyond that, it is the presence of a master – of any art or form. It is in their doing and being that the true inspiration happens for the student. A good teacher shows you – by living example – what is possible for you to achieve.

But they cannot achieve these things for you. You must learn to play your own instrument, sing your own song, dance as well – or hopefully even better than – your teachers.

A teacher is a door that opens for you. But you must pass through that door to gain anything. A teacher is not something to cling to, but to respect and thank for showing you what lies beyond.

My fondest and most respectful thanks to each of you.

Regards,

Selene


Yes, I appreciate all of my teachers too. Especially the ones I have hated, or that still seemingly torment me. It's going to be drinks on the house for those old buzzards when I get home...

Fred, your comment reminded me of a story my own beloved master once told us:

“As the seeker goes along his path, he will find himself continually harassed by Troubles of all kinds. No matter where he goes, Trouble will follow and dog him endlessly day and night.

“But when he finally attains his goal, the wise seeker will pause before bowing at the feet of the Most High. And turn instead to bow in gratitude at the feet of his loyal servant Trouble, without whose constant pushing and badgering he would never have travelled so far….”

Cheers,

Selene

[Ceedub]

Thanks Fred for this thread and to all those who have posted, I see Truth in every post here. I've always said that the only thing of value I learned in high school was the skill of typing. So there is some value to teachers. I could of course have taught myself this skill but it was of some help to learn it in the way it is taught in schools. As to how I can apply this skill, school and all the teachers in the world haven't a thing to offer me. But wait, it's so easy to forget the real lessons I learned back then. I learned to tune out the voices of authority, I learned the indispensable value of petty tyrants and the joy they can bring, I learned about oppresion and cruelty and mental enslavement and many other life lessons of that sort. True there might have been a few other helpful skills on offer that I missed because I was skipping class, smoking pot and eventually dropped out.

Later I returned for a second go at university. I thought I was receiving a wonderful classical education as a physics/philosophy/pre-med major. After, I always said that what I learned there was the skill of how to learn (also how to fill out financial aid forms). It took some years to understand that, while my statement was correct, it was in a different way and for a different reason than I first thought. They taught me how to learn indirectly. They actually taught me how not to learn and thus opened the door for me to discover how to educate myself properly. In terms of knowledge gained from university, again the things that remain most helpful today are the skills aquired in chemistry and mathematics. Like typing, these are skills, not knowledge per se, and none of my teachers could have spoken a helpful word about how these were to be used. They exposed me to all the great western philosophers so now I can say with some confidence that (for me at least) I know I need not look there for answers.

Well who knew but, under pressure from Sallie Mae, I soon discovered the job market for phys/phil majors (disillusioned with med school) wasn't what I hoped it would be. Well, coming from good parents and good upbringing I just knew the answer was education so I'ld have one more go.

This time it was trade school, automotive tech... I needed a job. Everything that is taught in such programs is useful (unlike my previous educational experiences). This time the lessons I should have already gotten were unavoidable. In any honest type of trade, incompetence has nowhere to hide (well there are exceptions to prove the rule I guess). You are responsible for every decision and action you make and every action has consequences that are totally obvious. Your skill and knowledge, great or small, is totally apparent. You are judged by your success which is laid bare for all to see (embarrasingly so). This is why we call these trades "honest work". You can't reallly pretend you fixed something if it still doesn't work.

The unavoidable lesson was that all of the skills and knowledge learned through the autotech program were helpful and necessary but there was just no substitute for experience. You emerge from such a program an apprentice and are still all but worthless, even a hazard, in a real shop. There you go kid, that's all we've got. The foundation was necessary but not sufficient to earn the title of master tech. Only through experience can you become a master and in the real world of automovive repair, the master tech knows well that the learning never stops. Experience, experience, experience... this is why we are here.

But this is all just allegory to real teaching, real knowledge and real mastery. I've been searching all my life for teachers to show me the way to enlightenment. I am still searching today, right now, with full knowledge of the folly for that perfect system or key to unlock the mysteries. I thank the stars that throughout my life I have been blessed, so very blessed with a scarcity of teachers and an abundance of petty tyrants because to paraphrase Don Juan, it's saved me the trouble of having to go looking for them.

As several posters have said already, the true teacher is no teacher at all. The only way to teach is to be the lesson. That's not always or even often a shining example of what ought to be, although this is how I seek to teach and thus serve. No preaching or even explaining, it only detracts from the message. More often it is the tyrants and false profits who offer the greatest lesson. As I say often in the real world to peers and coworkers, (and I'm pretty sure I'm plagerizing but I don't know who from) I learn nothing from my successes, it is only through my failings that I learn for when I succeed I know not why, I don't see the obstacles I avoided through dumb luck but when I fail the lessons are right there to kick me in the nuts. The same can be said from learning from others success and failure.

My gratitude goes out to all who have tried to block me, befuddle me, trap me, limit me and generally be a pain in my arse. Without you I surely would have wasted my oppertunities for real experience and the chance to fail.

Gratitude, CW

[Fred Steeves]

This time it was trade school, automotive tech... I needed a job. Everything that is taught in such programs is useful (unlike my previous educational experiences). This time the lessons I should have already gotten were unavoidable. In any honest type of trade, incompetence has nowhere to hide (well there are exceptions to prove the rule I guess). You are responsible for every decision and action you make and every action has consequences that are totally obvious. Your skill and knowledge, great or small, is totally apparent. You are judged by your success which is laid bare for all to see (embarrasingly so). This is why we call these trades "honest work". You can't reallly pretend you fixed something if it still doesn't work.

The unavoidable lesson was that all of the skills and knowledge learned through the autotech program were helpful and necessary but there was just no substitute for experience. You emerge from such a program an apprentice and are still all but worthless, even a hazard, in a real shop. There you go kid, that's all we've got. The foundation was necessary but not sufficient to earn the title of master tech. Only through experience can you become a master and in the real world of automovive repair, the master tech knows well that the learning never stops. Experience, experience, experience... this is why we are here.


Hi Ceedub, I like your story. Being a carpenter by trade, and now a contractor, I'd say you're dead on! In my case, if I hang a door and it's crooked, or doesn't quite close right, it's rather difficult to convince the customer that this is simply not so.(LOL) Virtually every skill I have is from a wide variety of people over the last 25 something years. A small handful of them were very demanding master carpenters, to whom I'm grateful at having had the opportunity to see how they work, and attempt to duplicate their precision. Most though were prime examples of how not to operate, and yet they were also teachers.

But it's now up to me to wind it all together, stamp my name to it, and produce my own unique creations, in my own unique way. I don't think there is a teacher who can do that for me. It's right back to "there ya go kid, you've got the fundamentals down, now go get em".

Cheers,
Fred

[Carmen]

I liken the Ramtha school I am a student of, to a spiritual university. It too, is practical though. Every learning has to be experienced through certain disciplines, such as blindfolded archery, remote view, sending and receiving (mind to mind) labyrinth, (where the objective is to find the centre of a huge maze while blindfolded, going through wormholes and up ladders with crowds of people doing the same thing), the field, (where you draw on a card something you wish to manifest or change, it is put on the fence and again, blindfolded one has to focus and go to the card) the Inner GodSelf can achieve all these disciplines. For the emotional, personality self, the disciplines are impossible.

Some beginning students come to school thinking they are psychics. The disciplines soon sort out how talented they are. Where I stayed at one event, my next door caravan neighbours were a delightful couple, but the lady had quite a meltdown, she is quite a well known psychic and has her own radio show. She sort of came expecting instant results! Well, her well meaning husband, who only came to accompany her really, reached the middle of the labyrinth on his first go and his wife couldn't achieve any of the disciplines! She was devastated and he kinda down played his achievement to placate her. It was quite an initiation for both of them. They were great in the end. My point of telling you all this is the primary importance of hands on experience. There is no substitute and and a great teacher points the way but cannot do it for you.

[Fred Steeves]

Some beginning students come to school thinking they are psychics. The disciplines soon sort out how talented they are. Where I stayed at one event, my next door caravan neighbours were a delightful couple, but the lady had quite a meltdown, she is quite a well known psychic and has her own radio show. She sort of came expecting instant results! Well, her well meaning husband, who only came to accompany her really, reached the middle of the labyrinth on his first go and his wife couldn't achieve any of the disciplines! She was devastated and he kinda down played his achievement to placate her. It was quite an initiation for both of them. They were great in the end. My point of telling you all this is the primary importance of hands on experience. There is no substitute and and a great teacher points the way but cannot do it for you.

Heya Carmen, I'm glad things turned out o.k. for that couple, that demonstrates a mature relationship for sure. But how many times have we seen it in very simplistic terms, where say a couple goes on a day long fishing trip, the woman winds up grabbing the hero's catch, and the silly husband goes home in a huff. (LOL)

My lovely wife surprises the living hell out of me from time to time with things Carmen. She's not really much into this "stuff", so to speak anyway, yet she listens quietly, and sometimes pops out with a tought or insight that makes me just stop, look at her, and say something like "damn, I never thought about it that way before". I like that though, and at times she'll stun me with a question that takes me a day or two to come back with a reasonable response. This is a good thing, and I reckon we each married a teacher.

[Fred Steeves]

Rahkyt, during this lovely evening thunderstorm we're getting, I was going back to the Castaneda talk. Maybe I'm now arguing for teachers(LOL), go figure man. Another of Don Juan's gold nuggets I've scooped up is "And Yet", from the book I recently read for the third time "The Power Of Silence". But this reading was the first time I actually caught it.

From what I recall right off hand, is Don Juan saying basically that in the way of the warrior, there is always "And Yet". My interpretation? "And there he stood, the last living human on Earth, staring down the steamroller of destruction of this now living and breathing New World Order. He was now alone, all hope lost of course, "And Yet..."

Cheers,
Fred

[Fred Steeves]

You know, I just recalled another old and great Teacher: The Teacher "Failure". Church summer camp, a week on the lake, one of my first times away from Mom and Dad. I was probably 11 or 12, but "the bosses" were 16 or 17. This great failure came right towards the end, the big day when everyone learns to water ski, before the big bon fire that night to end things.

I was rather intimidated of that big screaming motorboat racing to and from shore all day, letting all my peers experience their first time walking on water. I mainly kept to the side of the action, just messing around with the same friends who were awaiting their turn. The day grew close to the end, and the call was broadly and loudly put out to come forth, all who haven't yet had their turn on skis.

I wanted to, and I was also so intimidated... But at last call I sucked it up and volunteered myself to the attending staff. Long story short? I fell right over, spitting and coughing lake water, maybe 4-5 times in a row, in front of everybody of course. All of my buds had done it successfully, and then I had failed miserably to cap things off.

It wasn't that big of deal, really, I just never forgot. Turns out though, Failure is one of those old buzzards back home who will be receiving free drinks from me when I arrive...

[Jenci]

Rahkyt, during this lovely evening thunderstorm we're getting, I was going back to the Castaneda talk. Maybe I'm now arguing for teachers(LOL), go figure man. Another of Don Juan's gold nuggets I've scooped up is "And Yet", from the book I recently read for the third time "The Power Of Silence". But this reading was the first time I actually caught it.

From what I recall right off hand, is Don Juan saying basically that in the way of the warrior, there is always "And Yet". My interpretation? "And there he stood, the last living human on Earth, staring down the steamroller of destruction of this now living and breathing New World Order. He was now alone, all hope lost of course, "And Yet..."

Cheers,
Fred


Hi Fred, there is power in the silence!


Another aspect to this subject of teachers, is the need to teach others. Often we learn something and then think it is our job to go out there and teach everyone else what we know. But it's not.

Even this desire to teach must be disregarded as we see that this is the ego, using what has been learned to re-establish its identity.

In fact the more we learn, the quieter we become.

Ramana Maharshi very often used to teach in silence.

Verse 56 of the Tao te Ching says:

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."






If you spend a long period of time in study and self-cultivation, you will enter Tao. By doing so, you also enter a world of extra-ordinary perceptions. You experience unimaginable things, receive thoughts and learning as if from nowhere, perceive theings that could be classified as prescient.

Yet if you try to communicate what you experience, there is no one to understand you, no one who will believe you. The more you walk this road, the farther you are from the ordinary ways of society. You may see the truth, but you will find that peopel would rather listen to politicians, performers, and charlatans.

If you are known as a follower of Tao, people may seek you out, but they are seldom the ones who will truly understand Tao. They are people who would exploit Tao as a crutch. To speak to them of the wonders you have seen if often to engage in a futile bout of miscommunication. That is why it is said that those who know do not speak.

Why not simply stay quiet? Enjoy Tao as you will. Let others think you are dumb. Inside yourself, you will know the joy of Tao's mysteries. If you meet someone who can profit by your experience, you should share. But if you are merely a wanderer in a crown of strangers, it is wisdom to be silent.


365 Tao:Daily Mediations by Deng Ming-Dao

[Ceedub]

Hi Jenci,



"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."



Very a' propos. Also something from "The Ra Material" has always stuck with me. They always spoke of concepts such as teaching in the dualistic form so instead of "teaching" they use the phrase "learn/teach". You can't do just one. It sometimes has had me sounding like a crazy person when I speak (if I knew I would be quiet) but I find it very useful.

CW

[Jenci]

Hi Jenci,



"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."



Very a' propos. Also something from "The Ra Material" has always stuck with me. They always spoke of concepts such as teaching in the dualistic form so instead of "teaching" they use the phrase "learn/teach". You can't do just one. It sometimes has had me sounding like a crazy person when I speak (if I knew I would be quiet) but I find it very useful.

CW

Hi CW

I found the more I learned, the more I wanted to teach. I wanted to tell the whole world what I had learned and shake people to wake them up to seeing what I could see.

And then I realised the more I wanted to teach, it meant the more I needed to learn. :)

Jeanette

[Ceedub]

Hi Jenci,



"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."



Very a' propos. Also something from "The Ra Material" has always stuck with me. They always spoke of concepts such as teaching in the dualistic form so instead of "teaching" they use the phrase "learn/teach". You can't do just one. It sometimes has had me sounding like a crazy person when I speak (if I knew I would be quiet) but I find it very useful.

CW

Hi CW

I found the more I learned, the more I wanted to teach. I wanted to tell the whole world what I had learned and shake people to wake them up to seeing what I could see.

And then I realised the more I wanted to teach, it meant the more I needed to learn. :)

Jeanette

Well said, I feel the same. I was doing a lot of shaking as my learning accellerated and I always met with frustration. I mostly hold my tongue now. (not a statement of knowledge mind you, I've just learned to shut it) You are on the mark with what you said about ego establishing itself too. It seems more often than not our attempts to be of service to others are a trick of the ego.

I've been thinking about free will lately and coming to some new understandings. I think that I've been violating others free will by pushing knowledge on them. Proving something is true may violate anothers will to believe otherwise, hence friction or disconnect. That may be at the root of the trouble. These days I'm very sensetive with free will as it's tricky business.

CW

[markpierre]

[QUOTE=Ceedub;510572]Hi Jenci,

[QUOTE]
"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."


/QUOTE]

Hi CW

I found the more I learned, the more I wanted to teach. I wanted to tell the whole world what I had learned and shake people to wake them up to seeing what I could see.

And then I realised the more I wanted to teach, it meant the more I needed to learn. :)

Jeanette

But we should be able to recognize when real teachers are among us, and that should be whenever anyone is really being honest.
They're not teaching, they're being themselves. You know the joy in that.
There's a difference between convincing and certain. Certain has power that you can feel. Convincing feels like whining.
Well, that's how it feels to me.

Power puts people off sometimes, unless it spends the time and labor to censure away everything it has to say. Power doesn't think that way.
People react to certainty like arrogance. See you can't really tell by the way it reads. You have to be able to want to hear it.
Remember the early days? How it felt to be so hungry? It's a different hunger when your life is at stake.

You may be convincing, but that implies there are options, because you have to give separate thinkers options
because they freeking insist on it. And everything fails from there.
There aren't really options. It takes a drunk to know that.

But power gets in there. Sometimes you want to recoil because facing truth is uncomfortable these days. It has it's rewards, but the layers of 'truth beneath that truth' either seem or actually are endless.
Its not always (often) fun.

But we take it to dinner with us, and then to bed and maybe wake up that way. That's how change occurs.
There's a lot of value in that. You help a lot of people by being yourself..

Hey that was really just a weird circular compliment Jenci. Did you like it? I've missed you. Wirya ben?

[Jenci]

But we should be able to recognize when real teachers are among us, and that should be whenever anyone is really being honest.
They're not teaching, they're being themselves. You know the joy in that.
There's a difference between convincing and certain. Certain has power that you can feel. Convincing feels like whining.
Well, that's how it feels to me.



Good to hear from you, Mark.


I'm with you on the whining and I have heard myself whining at times. I think it may have been you who posted about the truth the other day - along the lines that it does not need to assert itself, and I agree with that.

The truth is already the truth. It doesn't need to jump up and down and make itself heard. The truth is found in the silence before the noise starts and when you start to tune into the truth, then the noise starts to sound like whining.





You may be convincing, but that implies there are options, because you have to give separate thinkers options
because they freeking insist on it. And everything fails from there.
There aren't really options. It takes a drunk to know that.

LOL, exactly. Talking of teachers, Professor Pinot Grigio gave this drunk that important lesson on options. There are none. This is it :)







Hey that was really just a weird circular compliment Jenci. Did you like it? I've missed you. Wirya ben?
and thank you.

I've been around in forum land, interests elsewhere.

Like you said:


Sometimes you want to recoil because facing truth is uncomfortable these days. It has it's rewards, but the layers of 'truth beneath that truth' either seem or actually are endless.
Its not always (often) fun.

It's just like that.

The realisations of the Truth of what I am mean that life becomes very ordinary and incredibly simple. Yet in that realisation there is a recoil because the realisation, to the mind, is far to immense and intense...... and like instant coffee, I throw it out because I can't bear it.

I choose a slower filtered version, letting it perculate through slowly. So my interest and attention goes elsewhere while the truth drips through at a speed that I can handle it.

But there really is no choice and while I think I am taking the easy route to understanding the realisation, I'm like the pebble on the beach that the tide drags back into the ocean and tumbles me around for a while and then washes me up on the beach for another period of contemplation and rest.

The rough edges are being smoothed nicely but I'm looking forward to more of the tumbling.

There's no rush. I have all the time in the world.....and I literally mean that :)
Jeanette

[Mark]

From what I recall right off hand, is Don Juan saying basically that in the way of the warrior, there is always "And Yet". My interpretation? "And there he stood, the last living human on Earth, staring down the steamroller of destruction of this now living and breathing New World Order. He was now alone, all hope lost of course, "And Yet..."

Good catch, Fred!

It's like the movies you watch where the happy ending has happened and then, there's a scene that shows the bad guy, not dead, or the situation not fully resolved as the protagonists think it is ... of course, perfect setup for the sequel, but also a fundamental truth. That there is no end to the story, that there is always something more. An elevated understanding of the nuances of materiality and the inability of the un-awakened mind to fully perceive all of the potentialities inherent in a moment, in an event, in a series of moments and events ... chaos theory, quantum truths, life always finding a way despite the obstacles, all aspects spelling out future sentences on a chalkboard spanning the infinite.



Another aspect to this subject of teachers, is the need to teach others. Often we learn something and then think it is our job to go out there and teach everyone else what we know. But it's not.

Even this desire to teach must be disregarded as we see that this is the ego, using what has been learned to re-establish its identity.

In fact the more we learn, the quieter we become.

Ramana Maharshi very often used to teach in silence.

Verse 56 of the Tao te Ching says:

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Hi Jenci,

when the Buddha attained enlightenment he didn't want to teach it. He was adamant against it. he didn't want to get followers, he didn't want to create a religion, he didn't want any of it. he thought it was all too difficult for the majority of people, most were not ready for his teachings. But, he had a vision I suppose you could say. In that vision the Hindu creator god came to him and convince him to teach the dharma.

I find that he expressed his unwillingness to teach by refusing to proselytize. From what I've read, he only ever answered questions. He did not go around preaching, yelling out to crowds and haranguing the people, he sat somewhere quietly until someone asked him a question. Perhaps that is the key aspect of sharing information, not to beat people over the head with it. And there were always questions that he refused to answer as well, dealing with infinity, the soul, things of that sort.

I find it a testament to free will and the nature of inquiry, as well as the propensity of people to build institutions for better and for worse, usually for worse. We hear a good thing and we gotta make a church around it. Sheesh.

[21CC]

Interesting facets of etymology for our understanding of "teacher" might include; preparer, one who leads forth, and one who shows.

[Fred Steeves]

In fact the more we learn, the quieter we become.



"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."


Hi Jenci, you know that I lean heavily towards that we are remembering from whence we came, as opposed to learning. Of course we are all dragging each other along that rugged path of remembrance. I fall, you pick me up, you fall, I pick you up.

Being given a hand up from a big stumble doesn't usually require a lot of words, does it?

I reckon we could call these teachers?

[mosquito]

....
I find that he expressed his unwillingness to teach by refusing to proselytize. From what I've read, he only ever answered questions. He did not go around preaching, yelling out to crowds and haranguing the people, he sat somewhere quietly until someone asked him a question. Perhaps that is the key aspect of sharing information, not to beat people over the head with it.
....

Exactly ! Preaching ain't teaching !!!

Far better to simply be yourself, live by your heart, as fully as possible, and if some of that attitude rubs off on those around you - great. If not, that's equally OK.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Everyone and everything I interact with is my teacher, if I am paying attention. Those who push my buttons the most are my greatest teachers.

[another bob]

He did not go around preaching, yelling out to crowds and haranguing the people, he sat somewhere quietly until someone asked him a question. Perhaps that is the key aspect of sharing information, not to beat people over the head with it.


One ounce of practice is better than one ton of preaching.”

~Gandhi

[21CC]

My definition of a good teacher: One who can inspire students to formulate their own questions, show students where to find and how to utilize all the available resources to allow them to discover answers with personal relevance. With this degree of preparation and guiding care, significant learning is bound to happen! Thanks to all the devoted teachers who give of their life energy toward that continuous end!

[Carmen]

I love this ancient Arabian proverb that that Annalee Skarin included in her book "The Temple of God" I think it fits well in this thread.

"He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool! Avoid him!

He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is simple, teach him.

He who knows and knows not that he knows, is asleep, Wake him.

He who knows and knows that he knows, is a wise man, follow him.

[Tony]

As has been said many times, we are all discoverers (students), and when we know (we know we know).

The label teacher (knower), is given by a discoverer (student), when the discoverer (student) discovers that what the knower knows, they too know.
Then it's possible to refine the knowing, because we trust.

Tony

[Tony]

May I share something with you?

I am a painter (pictures). my greatest teacher is....is.....a mirror! My brain sees one way, the mirror shows up all the imbalances, in design, tone and colour! Our own brain gets a bit fixed. At the Academy we use a clear mirror and a dark mirror, they are an artists best friend.

A human guide does the very same thing, shows you your imbalances. Who you consider your foe, does the very same thing, but your guide helps you to read the situation, until you can do it on your own.

Then you can love thy neighbour with all your heart...and not find fault.

They just need a little adjusting, as I do, all the time!
"Mirror mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all?"


Tony

[Fred Steeves]

"Mirror mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all?"


Ugh, that damn mirror...It's like, "what long cherished delusion are you going to expose THIS time?" (LOL)

[Jenci]

In fact the more we learn, the quieter we become.



"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."


Hi Jenci, you know that I lean heavily towards that we are remembering from whence we came, as opposed to learning. Of course we are all dragging each other along that rugged path of remembrance. I fall, you pick me up, you fall, I pick you up.

Being given a hand up from a big stumble doesn't usually require a lot of words, does it?

I reckon we could call these teachers?


I agree, many who have helped me have been my teacher....but on the other hand those who have put the boot in and kicked me when I was down, have also been the teacher.

Here's something to consider, if we know who our teacher is, are we open to learning?

Everything is energy and needs to flow freely. As soon as we hold onto something we block the flow of energy. If a teacher comes into our life and we then create a belief which tells us this is our teacher, we are holding onto something. This is quite a natural tendency of the mind/ego to grasp at something and make a story about it. In doing so we cling and hold on to a belief/idea/concept about where the teacher is. This is where the energy gets blocked and the flow stops.

There's a saying, 'When the student is ready, the teacher will appear'

If the student already knows where the teacher is, how can the teacher appear?


And I am with you on the idea this is all about remembering where we came from :)
Jeanette

[Unified Serenity]

It would be an incredible experience to have a camp out with all the people on this thread. To sit and discuss the truths shared within this and then experience the rabbit trails and revelations that came from the conversations. This is what Avalon is about imho.

[Tony]

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Sorry I cannot agree with this at all, it just does not make sense! It's so New Agey.
I've been to many many teachings by wonderful inspiring teachers, what would be the point of going there and the teacher saying nothing? One can easily sit in silence and totally totally misunderstand!....I did!

There very subtle levels of consciousness that can be misunderstood for 'being there', when in fact it is a blank vacant state. I've been to teaching that have explained this with great precision. How can one communicate finer details by saying nothing? What you will get is a mood, and that is useful. But that can easily be turned into a sentimental state.

As well as a heart, you have a head. They work together....don't leave home without either!

Tony

[another bob]

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Sorry I cannot agree with this at all, it just does not make sense! It's so New Agey.
I've been to many many teachings by wonderful inspiring teachers, what would be the point of going there and the teacher saying nothing? One can easily sit in silence and totally totally misunderstand!....I did!

There very subtle levels of consciousness that can be misunderstood for 'being there', when in fact it is a blank vacant state. I've been to teaching that have explained this with great precision. How can one communicate finer details by saying nothing? What you will get is a mood, and that is useful. But that can easily be turned into a sentimental state.

As well as a heart, you have a head. They work together....don't leave home without either!

Tony


"Not only are books the mere discarded husk or shell of wisdom, but words themselves... are irrelevant to the deeper experience of Tao, the 'wordless doctrine'. If the Taoist speaks and still more if he writes, he does so merely to arouse interest in his doctrines, and not in any hope of communicating what another can not be made to feel, any more than you can feel the pain in my finger."

- Athur Waley

[Antagenet]

IN my experience Teachers came in the form of:

Role Models - for the inspiration of what direction to go towards
Mentors - for their belief in my abilities, and hands on advice
Coaches - for their love and encouragement
Psychologists - for the best and most personal questions I ever received.

[Unified Serenity]

It's been my experience that we are all teachers and students. It is key to know which are are at any given time and embrace that experience from a loving standpoint.

[Mark]

Exactly ! Preaching ain't teaching !!!

Far better to simply be yourself, live by your heart, as fully as possible, and if some of that attitude rubs off on those around you - great. If not, that's equally OK.

It is ALL ok. Coming to that realization is coming to the recognition that we don't have to beat others over the head with anything. I used to teach college classes. Introductory Geography classes. Physical, human. Students paid to go to the colleges I taught at, they paid to sit in a chair and listen to me pontificate on different aspects of geography. I did not go out in the street to scream at them. There has to be a willingness factor on the part of those who become privy to the information presented. A free will choice.

There is an agreement between teacher and student, one that actually puts each in the position of the other at different stages of the interaction. The agreement is to engage in this knowledge-building endeavor together and to come out of the interaction different people. When there is resistance on the part of the one receiving the information. The agreement is null and void because no teaching occurs and no learning is involved. It is thusly that karma is accrued.

[Unified Serenity]

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Sorry I cannot agree with this at all, it just does not make sense! It's so New Agey.
I've been to many many teachings by wonderful inspiring teachers, what would be the point of going there and the teacher saying nothing? One can easily sit in silence and totally totally misunderstand!....I did!

There very subtle levels of consciousness that can be misunderstood for 'being there', when in fact it is a blank vacant state. I've been to teaching that have explained this with great precision. How can one communicate finer details by saying nothing? What you will get is a mood, and that is useful. But that can easily be turned into a sentimental state.

As well as a heart, you have a head. They work together....don't leave home without either!

Tony


"Not only are books the mere discarded husk or shell of wisdom, but words themselves... are irrelevant to the deeper experience of Tao, the 'wordless doctrine'. If the Taoist speaks and still more if he writes, he does so merely to arouse interest in his doctrines, and not in any hope of communicating what another can not be made to feel, any more than you can feel the pain in my finger."

- Athur Waley

Being an empath, I can most definitely feel others pain. The most natural thing is to teach an open heart and ear, ask any mother.

I also add, that no one could follow tao if someone who brought it about did not teach it and hand it down to one another.

[Fred Steeves]

It would be an incredible experience to have a camp out with all the people on this thread. To sit and discuss the truths shared within this and then experience the rabbit trails and revelations that came from the conversations. This is what Avalon is about imho.

What a cool idea US, wouldn't that make for an awesome weekend? I call fire duty.http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif

[Fred Steeves]

Those who push my buttons the most are my greatest teachers.

Ain't that a bitch Ron? Just because we may know this little bit of useful information, doesn't necessarily translate into behaving like a saint when those buttons are being pushed does it? Me thinks the really important aspect of that is in the noticing, and the acknowledgement that we just had our buttons successfully pushed again. Where there is atleast an acknowledgement, the possibility exists to carefully extract that hair from the butter's surface, and gently lay it aside.

[Jenci]

Those who push my buttons the most are my greatest teachers.

Ain't that a bitch Ron? Just because we may know this little bit of useful information, doesn't necessarily translate into behaving like a saint when those buttons are being pushed does it? Me thinks the really important aspect of that is in the noticing, and the acknowledgement that we just had our buttons successfully pushed again. Where there is atleast an acknowledgement, the possibility exists to carefully extract that hair from the butter's surface, and gently lay it aside.

If we always behaved like a saint when our buttons got pushed, would we ever learn the lesson? ;)

Jeanette

[Fred Steeves]

Those who push my buttons the most are my greatest teachers.

Ain't that a bitch Ron? Just because we may know this little bit of useful information, doesn't necessarily translate into behaving like a saint when those buttons are being pushed does it? Me thinks the really important aspect of that is in the noticing, and the acknowledgement that we just had our buttons successfully pushed again. Where there is atleast an acknowledgement, the possibility exists to carefully extract that hair from the butter's surface, and gently lay it aside.

If we always behaved like a saint when our buttons got pushed, would we ever learn the lesson? ;)

Jeanette

Well Jence, maybe it would be time for us to just like, float away into the clouds, and dimensions beyond, if we had the "button pushers" mastered huh?

Mission accomplished...http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif

[another bob]

Well Jence, maybe it would be time for us to just like, float away into the clouds, and dimensions beyond, if we had the "button pushers" mastered huh?

Mission accomplished...http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif

Well, just because one may finish grammar school, doesn't mean there's no more to learn.

[Sebastion]

You can certainly say that again Anotherbob......!






Well Jence, maybe it would be time for us to just like, float away into the clouds, and dimensions beyond, if we had the "button pushers" mastered huh?

Mission accomplished...http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif

Well, just because one may finish grammar school, doesn't mean there's no more to learn.

[Unified Serenity]

Maybe that is the role of some of us on earth now, Official button pushers :D

[Fred Steeves]

Maybe that is the role of some of us on earth now, Official button pushers :D

I've certainly pushed my fair share, and likely continue to do so. :cool:

[another bob]

Maybe that is the role of some of us on earth now, Official button pushers :D

I've certainly pushed my fair share, and likely continue to do so. :cool:


"Causing and bearing each other's burden"


M: Strife and struggle are a part of existence. Why don't you inquire who is responsible for existence?

Q: Why do you say that existence and conflict are inseparable? Can there be no existence without strife? I need not fight others to be myself.

M: You fight others all the time for your survival as a separate body-mind, a particular name and form. To live you must destroy. From the moment you were conceived you started a war with your environment - a merciless war of mutual extermination, until death sets you free.

Q: My question remains unanswered. You are merely describing what I know - life and its sorrows. But who is responsible you do not say. When I press you, you throw the blame on God, or karma, or my own greed and fear - which merely invites further questions. Give me the final answer.

M: The final answer is this: nothing is. All is a momentary appearance in the field of universal consciousness; continuity as a name, and form as a mental formation only, easy to dispel.

Q: I am asking about the immediate, the transitory, the appearance. Here is a picture of a child killed by soldiers. It is a fact - staring at you. You cannot deny it. Now, who is responsible for the death of the child?

M: Nobody and everybody. The world is what it contains and each thing affects all others. We all kill the child and we all die with it. Every event has innumerable causes and produces numberless effects. It is useless to keep accounts, nothing is traceable.

Q: Your people speak of karma and retribution.

M: It is merely a gross approximation: in reality we are all creators and creatures of each other, causing and bearing each other's burden.

~ Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, "I Am That"

[Fred Steeves]

It is ALL ok. Coming to that realization is coming to the recognition that we don't have to beat others over the head with anything. I used to teach college classes. Introductory Geography classes. Physical, human. Students paid to go to the colleges I taught at, they paid to sit in a chair and listen to me pontificate on different aspects of geography. I did not go out in the street to scream at them. There has to be a willingness factor on the part of those who become privy to the information presented. A free will choice.


Yes Mark, don't know if you meant to or not here, but I think you touch very well on the subtleties of "those who know do not talk". I've never found that to mean an absolute either way, between "talking" or "not talking". It's like everything else in life, if the action is appropriate then do it, if not then don't.

If say, me and a neighbor find ourselves sipping a couple of frosty cold ones one evening together, and they wind up asking me something like: " So Fred, have you ever thought about what 'all this' is about?", then certainly I would share, to a point of course, all depending. But, if I just belly up to the bar at me local pub for a couple of frosties, it's a different story. Now of course knowing me(LOL), I'll likely wind up raising a few unsuspecting eyebrows anyway before I pull up stakes, but I reckon ya'll know what I mean.http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Maybe that is the role of some of us on earth now, Official button pushers :D

I've certainly pushed my fair share, and likely continue to do so. :cool:

I tend to not push too hard or too often, but sometimes it gives me a mildly perverse good feeling.

When mine are purposely pushed and recognized, I usually use great effort to not provide the expected reaction. I wonder why? Probably some sort of game I play.

[Fred Steeves]

Sometimes a simple old tune can just sum things up the best, thank god for music.

ym_mJokfTQg

[ViralSpiral]

Thank you Fred, and others for this wonderful thread.


Sometimes I am just the door and other times, the knocker ;)

Over time, it has become easier to welcome the buttons too




This being human is a guest house
Every morning a new arrival.
A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out for some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.
Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
Rumi

[Tony]

There are many teachers.
There are not many students.
There are those that acquire a life-style.


Though it is said, a human existence is as rare
as a blind turtle coming to the surface of an ocean
once every hundred years, to put it's head
through a rubber ring,

finding a student is even rarer!






Tony

[Eram]

Everything is energy and needs to flow freely. As soon as we hold onto something we block the flow of energy.

Wauww!!

So cool.

That's exactly what I see in my minds eye when I'm practicing "let all that is to be" and "releasing identification".
I see a construction of pipes and tubes and when I shift from clinging to a mindset to releasing it, I see a tube that is clamped down, suddenly opens up and a burst of energy start flowing. The feeling to it is corresponding.

I'm open for correction, but what you wrote here is in essence what it is all about isn't it?
It's all there if you contemplate this.

Ehhm,
Sorry I don't have anything to add to the OP Fred.
Just wanted to point this one out!

Well there's one thing...
Just don't get hung up on the word 'teacher' :P

[Tony]

If you can read this.......thank a teacher!

[Tony]

Somethings that are said here, just do not make sense!

Some of you are saying, there is no need for a teacher. Are you saying, “There are no problems?”
Are you saying, there are no problems, because you understand everything, or are you saying I'll find out in my own good time? If you have no problems then you are enlightened!
Or if you have no problems, perhaps you are not looking closely enough!

Let's be honest, there are things to be discovered, learnt or peeled away. It's all down to how directly one wants to achieve this. One can stay in ignorance a little longer, or find out. You are frightened not of teachers, but of your own reactions in your mind. This killing of teachers, is exactly what the New World Odour is all about.

Genuine teachers are students. It is the passing on of knowledge out of compassion for others.
If you continue to kill this knowledge, you are part of the New World Odour of destruction.

It's your choice...or is it?



Tony

[Fred Steeves]

Somethings that are said here, just do not make sense!

Some of you are saying, there is no need for a teacher. Are you saying, “There are no problems?”
Are you saying, there are no problems, because you understand everything, or are you saying I'll find out in my own good time? If you have no problems then you are enlightened!
Or if you have no problems, perhaps you are not looking closely enough!

Let's be honest, there are things to be discovered, learnt or peeled away. It's all down to how directly one wants to achieve this. One can stay in ignorance a little longer, or find out. You are frightened not of teachers, but of your own reactions in your mind. This killing of teachers, is exactly what the New World Odour is all about.

Genuine teachers are students. It is the passing on of knowledge out of compassion for others.
If you continue to kill this knowledge, you are part of the New World Odour of destruction.

It's your choice...or is it?


Hi Tony, good timing on that post. I almost wrote about this yesterday evening, but didn't for whatever reason. I remember so vividly the years of devouring books of every spiritual subject under the sun, all the while being on sharp lookout for the day when my ship would come in, and I would cross paths with a teacher. Eventually it just got to where it was dawning on me, that I was not one of those fortunate people who would have this privilege, same as being a psychic, healer, etc. Sort of like saying to myself: "Fred, things like these are only for 'special' people, and son you ain't one of them". So I said screw it then, don't worry about it.

Looking back now with the 20/20 vision of hindsight, it's very clear that from the very moment I first open up to the idea of wanting a teacher, I had one. Hell, they were all over the place, and they still are! You're one of them! I was under the false assumption, in my opinion anyway, that some wise old soul was going to just show up one day for me to start asking questions of, like young Grasshopper with his master in the old Kung Fu t.v. series.

Now that's not to say if I encountered one of these beings that I would not want some time with them. Like I said in an earlier post, if one moved in next door, I'm no fool, and I'd be chatting them up every chance I got, except for one critical point. I wouldn't be full of questions like Grasshopper any more, I would simply like to talk with them, just like I talk with you, and other people I highly respect on this forum.

So far as I'm concerned, being at Avalon is like being at a damn teacher's convention! http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif

Cheers Mate,
Fred

[markpierre]

Somethings that are said here, just do not make sense!

Some of you are saying, there is no need for a teacher. Are you saying, “There are no problems?”
Are you saying, there are no problems, because you understand everything, or are you saying I'll find out in my own good time? If you have no problems then you are enlightened!
Or if you have no problems, perhaps you are not looking closely enough!

Let's be honest, there are things to be discovered, learnt or peeled away. It's all down to how directly one wants to achieve this. One can stay in ignorance a little longer, or find out. You are frightened not of teachers, but of your own reactions in your mind. This killing of teachers, is exactly what the New World Odour is all about.

Genuine teachers are students. It is the passing on of knowledge out of compassion for others.
If you continue to kill this knowledge, you are part of the New World Odour of destruction.

It's your choice...or is it?

Thanks Tony, I like that. Maybe it boils down to; what does it take to get you to ask a question that's serious enough,
that you realize you're not going to be able to answer it yourself?

An illumination just points out the problem. A teacher just kept looking at me. Discipline just shows me the ball is always in my hand.
In the end that emerging Self has to take over teaching, if that's all the teaching ever was.

We talk about students surpassing their teachers as if that were someone else's goal.
Some teacher and his student and the purpose and such,
But at what point does that actually occur in us? Is that just an organic thing and just happens? Because I don't see much outside evidence of it.
Or is that also just a choice? Because i don't see much evidence of that either. I can't answer that one, it seems like it's both.

[Jenci]

Over time, it has become easier to welcome the buttons too

I agree, over time it does become easier to welcome the button pushing when how it works to dissolve the illusion is seen.


It's all Grace but our mind/ego judges the gift by the packaging and likes to reject what is not appealing.......yet when we learn to ignore the packaging we see the inherent beauty and perfection of the gift inside.








This being human is a guest house
Every morning a new arrival.
A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out for some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.
Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
Rumi


Thank you, those are beautiful words by Rumi. Lots to learn from there :)

Jeanette

[Shadowman]

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Sorry I cannot agree with this at all, it just does not make sense! It's so New Agey.
I've been to many many teachings by wonderful inspiring teachers, what would be the point of going there and the teacher saying nothing? One can easily sit in silence and totally totally misunderstand!....I did!

There very subtle levels of consciousness that can be misunderstood for 'being there', when in fact it is a blank vacant state. I've been to teaching that have explained this with great precision. How can one communicate finer details by saying nothing? What you will get is a mood, and that is useful. But that can easily be turned into a sentimental state.

As well as a heart, you have a head. They work together....don't leave home without either!

Tony

Hi Tony,

Jen’s quote is from verse 56 of the Tao Te Ching;

Those who know do not talk. Those who talk do not know. Keep your mouth closed. Guard your senses. Temper your sharpness. Simplify your problems. Mask your brightness. Be at one with the dust of the Earth. This is primal union. He who has achieved this state Is unconcerned with friends and enemies, With good and harm, with honor and disgrace. This therefore is the highest state of man.

Are you familiar with Buddha’s flower sermon and Mahākāśyapa’s response?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon

Paradoxically, those who have realized the “Self”, (appear to) speak to lead/inspire others to silence, not just a verbal silence, but a silent or quiescent mind. How many of us remember the screen, while watching a movie? It is only when the movie stops that the ever present screen is clear. Once this is realized, ie you are the screen, not one of the characters in the movie, it will be clear that your true Self has never really spoken a single word, hence those who know do not speak; and the following will also make perfect sense;

“One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created of material nature, and sees that the self does nothing, actually sees.” - BG 13:30

“Subhuti, whoever says that the Tathagata (‘Thus-come One’) comes, goes, sits, or lies down does not understand the meaning of my teaching.” - Diamond Sutra

"Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." - Matt 8:20

All the texts say that in order to gain release one should
render the mind quiescent; therefore their conclusive teaching
is that the mind should be rendered quiescent; once this has
been understood there is no need for endless reading. In order
to quieten the mind one has only to inquire within oneself
what one’s Self is; how could this search be done in books?
One should know one’s Self with one’s own eye of wisdom.
The Self is within the five sheaths; but books are outside them.
Since the Self has to be inquired into by discarding the five
sheaths, it is futile to search for it in books. - Ramana Maharshi


So, as long as you identify with an ego, constructed by the mind from various dependent transitory phenomena, you will believe that “you” talk, and will relate to apparent “others”, hence you will talk, but not know (the Self). The silent transmission is only usually groked by “ripe” students. The true teacher is your Self, from which you never really were separate,

With Love/ Namaste,
tim

[Jenci]

Everything is energy and needs to flow freely. As soon as we hold onto something we block the flow of energy.

Wauww!!

So cool.

That's exactly what I see in my minds eye when I'm practicing "let all that is to be" and "releasing identification".
I see a construction of pipes and tubes and when I shift from clinging to a mindset to releasing it, I see a tube that is clamped down, suddenly opens up and a burst of energy start flowing. The feeling to it is corresponding.

I'm open for correction, but what you wrote here is in essence what it is all about isn't it?
It's all there if you contemplate this.


Yes, this is what it is about, Waky.

Our true nature, Awareness, is pure allowing.

Our ego is an activity which will either grasp or resist. If a something is unpleasant, the ego/mind will resist it. If something is pleasurable the ego/mind will want to hold onto it. Both these activities will block or hold energies which would otherwise be allowed to flow freely within Awareness.

Jon Bernie likes to talk about spirtual practice in terms of 'energy management'. In other words allowing everything to unfold in the space that is Awareness, noticing when there is grasping or resisting. With practice we can learn to become very aware of these contractions of grasping and resisting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coi5CTk1lVA&feature=autoplay&list=UUnd3iNIcwCVnDUHy4XvRB9Q&playnext=1




Incidently I found in another of his videos he is talking about what a teacher is which seems appropriate for this thread too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wmFSixVQWE&feature=relmfu


Jeanette

[kathymarie]

Hey Steve....there's no ' in "whom"......:p

[crested-duck]

Those who push my buttons the most are my greatest teachers.

Ain't that a bitch Ron? Just because we may know this little bit of useful information, doesn't necessarily translate into behaving like a saint when those buttons are being pushed does it? Me thinks the really important aspect of that is in the noticing, and the acknowledgement that we just had our buttons successfully pushed again. Where there is atleast an acknowledgement, the possibility exists to carefully extract that hair from the butter's surface, and gently lay it aside. That butter just doesn't taste the same since seeing the hair and pulling it out, now I can never look at butter the same way I used to... Damn it... Oh well it's for the best anyway....LOL--Rob

[Tony]

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Sorry I cannot agree with this at all, it just does not make sense! It's so New Agey.
I've been to many many teachings by wonderful inspiring teachers, what would be the point of going there and the teacher saying nothing? One can easily sit in silence and totally totally misunderstand!....I did!

There very subtle levels of consciousness that can be misunderstood for 'being there', when in fact it is a blank vacant state. I've been to teaching that have explained this with great precision. How can one communicate finer details by saying nothing? What you will get is a mood, and that is useful. But that can easily be turned into a sentimental state.

As well as a heart, you have a head. They work together....don't leave home without either!

Tony

Hi Tony,

Jen’s quote is from verse 56 of the Tao Te Ching;

Those who know do not talk. Those who talk do not know. Keep your mouth closed. Guard your senses. Temper your sharpness. Simplify your problems. Mask your brightness. Be at one with the dust of the Earth. This is primal union. He who has achieved this state Is unconcerned with friends and enemies, With good and harm, with honor and disgrace. This therefore is the highest state of man.

Are you familiar with Buddha’s flower sermon and Mahākāśyapa’s response?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon

Paradoxically, those who have realized the “Self”, (appear to) speak to lead/inspire others to silence, not just a verbal silence, but a silent or quiescent mind. How many of us remember the screen, while watching a movie? It is only when the movie stops that the ever present screen is clear. Once this is realized, ie you are the screen, not one of the characters in the movie, it will be clear that your true Self has never really spoken a single word, hence those who know do not speak; and the following will also make perfect sense;

“One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created of material nature, and sees that the self does nothing, actually sees.” - BG 13:30

“Subhuti, whoever says that the Tathagata (‘Thus-come One’) comes, goes, sits, or lies down does not understand the meaning of my teaching.” - Heart Sutra

"Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." - Matt 8:20

All the texts say that in order to gain release one should
render the mind quiescent; therefore their conclusive teaching
is that the mind should be rendered quiescent; once this has
been understood there is no need for endless reading. In order
to quieten the mind one has only to inquire within oneself
what one’s Self is; how could this search be done in books?
One should know one’s Self with one’s own eye of wisdom.
The Self is within the five sheaths; but books are outside them.
Since the Self has to be inquired into by discarding the five
sheaths, it is futile to search for it in books. - Ramana Maharshi


So, as long as you identify with an ego, constructed by the mind from various dependent transitory phenomena, you will believe that “you” talk, and will relate to apparent “others”, hence you will talk, but not know (the Self). The silent transmission is only usually groked by “ripe” students. The true teacher is your Self, from which you never really were separate,

With Love/ Namaste,
tim


Hello Tim,

Hmm.....

Over a a year ago I wrote.....hmm. Hmm, was my article. The moderators deleted it because they said is was meaningless.
I argued that it carried great meaning. They said, “but no one else's knows what that means!”

That's when I decided to use more words!

Free spirits are like that ...versatile!
Though a few people have told me to shut my mouth on this forum, I shall continue being a free spirit.


Tony

[Unified Serenity]

It's your choice...or is it?


Thanks Tony, I like that. Maybe it boils down to; what does it take to get you to ask a question that's serious enough,
that you realize you're not going to be able to answer it yourself?



Khaleesi and I were talking about this very aspect yesterday and it came down to Pork Butt and Brisket! You see, I am an aspiring Pit Master and well hell, if it were not for Myron Mixon and Trigs, I wouldn't have a prayers chance on cooking a proper Pork Butt or Brisket. Oh, I don't want to leave that anal retentive one out, I think his name is Sonny or something with his group "Cool Smoke". The fact is, I would have had to buy at least 25 pork butts and briskets to be anywhere near able to make them edible. There isn't a human being alive with internet that has any excuse for being a bad chef!

I want to know something of extreme importance such as Pork Butts and I can google it, youtube it, and find out from the masters.

I do appreciate my latest teacher, Myron Mixon

http://www.tvchannelsfree.com/tcfcrawler/thumbs/000/058/58160.jpg

[markpierre]

It's your choice...or is it?


Thanks Tony, I like that. Maybe it boils down to; what does it take to get you to ask a question that's serious enough,
that you realize you're not going to be able to answer it yourself?



Khaleesi and I were talking about this very aspect yesterday and it came down to Pork Butt and Brisket! You see, I am an aspiring Pit Master and well hell, if it were not for Myron Mixon and Trigs, I wouldn't have a prayers chance on cooking a proper Pork Butt or Brisket. Oh, I don't want to leave that anal retentive one out, I think his name is Sonny or something with his group "Cool Smoke". The fact is, I would have had to buy at least 25 pork butts and briskets to be anywhere near able to make them edible. There isn't a human being alive with internet that has any excuse for being a bad chef!

I want to know something of extreme importance such as Pork Butts and I can google it, youtube it, and find out from the masters.

I do appreciate my latest teacher, Myron Mixon

http://www.tvchannelsfree.com/tcfcrawler/thumbs/000/058/58160.jpg

Yes, that's about what we regard as a serious question. Well illustrated.
Hell is a platter of brisket in the sun and no propane for the barbie.
Or a brand new Lexus with a chronic ghost in the computer.

[Ceedub]

I am loving this thread. It seems as though the composite of all the differing points of view paint a very useful and true portrait of 'Teacher'. The light of wisdom is bright here, thanks Fred. (btw, can wisdom be taught? Hold up I think that might be a whole other post...) It might seem to some readers that there is a divide between those who are speaking of looking within, remembering etc., and those who speak of the importance and significance of good teachers, looking outside. This is a false division as I see it however and I sense most others see that as well. It seems Knowledge comes from within while we find knowledge externally, this I think is where that artificial boundary lies. Archtype vs manifestation. It raises a philosophical question as to whether real Knowledge can, in principle be handed from one to the next. Awareness perhaps but Knowledge... there may well be a good reason for this obstacle here in our collective university. Language it seems will never suffice to describe the realm of the archtype (with gratitude to that great teacher Plato).

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Great words of wisdom from one of the greatest teachers to grace this planet... ironic, perhaps but still true. Perhaps those words are best understood as wisdom rather than as K/kowledge but I'm trying to stay concise, don't laugh, I really am. As with all of the verses of the Tao Te Ching, this must be meditated on and digested slowly lest the student take it as solipsism or nihlism or just a condemnation of teachers generally. Such is Tao.

I keep running up against this phenomenon of what I've come to describe as the deconstruction of truth. It seems, in any subject you care to choose, from plumbing to metaphysics, as you aquire knowledge you come to plateaus of understanding where it feels comfortable enough to say you've got a handle on the subject; your knowledge and awareness are such that you understand the nature of the subject, it's breadth and depth. If we are diligent and curious enough though the good students will discover that there will inevitably be one or two inconvenient facts that cause you to pick up the shovel again only to realise that your understanding was just a useful metaphor, a compressed simile for the Truth (at best). There were many respected scientists and philosophers a century ago who where foolishly proclaiming that scientific discovery was all but finished. We knew all we needed to know, all but a few minor details.

Many who call themselves teachers, experts or masters (that's usually a clue, self-proclomation) or who allow themselves to be thought of this way, and who write or lecture on this path or that, are teaching from one of those plateaus, just like the scientists who could tell you all about billiard balls, balistic tragectories and the completeness of the periodic table but whose theories would collapse catastrophicaly when they were confronted with quantum theory. Newtonian physics is usefull if you're interest is in cannon balls and steam locomotives but is limiting in the extreme if cosmology or metaphysics is your game. Anyone I meet who proclaims they Know are usually in my life to teach me about limitation and boxes. A good teacher will aid one to raise their awareness, facts and figures may be helpful for that surely. A good teacher will inspire the student and dismantle limitations showing the way for the student to eclipse and go beyond the teachers highest heights. A good teacher is a catalyst. A good teacher opens up what is within. A good teacher is humble. A good teacher can be invaluable.

I get a little perterbed thinking back on all the college professors and scientists (or doctors quite noteably) who proclaimed their facts were true only to be usurped by new true facts and a new paradigm from which to interpret our world after only a few short years. It's their certainty that gets to me. They claimed authority and I yielded to it. I relenquished free will. I made myself smaller to accomidate the authoritarian relationship common in schools of all sorts. The result was an intellectual limiting. They were building and mainting boxes. The mistake was not that I tried to absorb all of the knowledge on offer, but I mistook their claims of authority for real Knowledge. I notice a trend that the longer someone stays in the educational system the more trapped in the box they tend to become, but the educational system is just an example, of course I mean to discuss the learn/teach in the broadest terms and the same holds true outside that system as within. The same happens at spiritually oriented seminars for example, or listening to the highest yogi, or channelling Ra, authority is granted (variously). It is a mental state that does not require vice-principals or deans or overbearing professors. At some level it is unavoidable in the exterior dynamic.

Over time I learned the best way to learn is through apprenticeship and mentoring, ie., guided experience, which is always lower case 'k' and always just a begining... "There you go kid, you're on your own from here" (love that, thanks Fred). Although, even in the best case you spend most of your time sweeping up the shop anyway. When the apprenticeship is done we strike out on our own, now seeing the mistakes and limitations our mentor opperated with, their antiquated ways, now able to reinvent what they taught us, now with confidence in self to do better than and be smarter than the silly old man, grateful though we are. Conversely, I've learned through the experience of tutoring that the best way to master a given subject is to teach it.

The greatest teachers are seldom if ever the ones with the greatest K/knowledge or the largest number of facts at their disposal. To list a few of the most notable teachers in my life, the plants in my garden taught me the way to overcome difficulties is to grow out of them, shedding what doesn't serve me as I go, all the universe is cycles, there are times for all things, in the darkness have faith, the light will come again, experience is unfoldment, to blossom is to die, to die is to be born. Lindsey the cat taught me how to be comfortable in my skin, sleeping for a chance to dream, astral planes, imagination, time is an illusion, in stillness there is motion. Jenna the dog taught me everything I know about Loyalty and Truth, the honor of service, courage, the dignity of humility. These lessons are truely valuable to me and those teachers never knew their role... to be fair Lindsey might have. I do also have a closet full of outgrown boxes sold to me as important by professors and yogis, parents and teachers, all speaking from within the same illusion as me. They are still full of all manner of useful facts and when I need a few facts I rumage through and find what's useful amongst my old model train and and the pocket knife grampa gave me, all once cherished, now just artifacts. I guess like Fred I was never blessed with that one special teacher to guide me on my path but I think if I had been I would never quite be sure if my ideas were really true or just useful metaphors.

If a statistitian were to compile all the K/knowledge, skills, facts, truths and understandings I have aquired in this life, it would be obvious that my greatest teacher has been myself. On the other hand if they compiled all the falsities, dead-ends, mistaken interpretations, mistruths, short-truths, narrow-truths, low-truths, half-truths and the ideas that have limited or befuddled me, it would be clear to see that they all originated from my mistakenly granting authority to teachers who were not in fact teachers in the way we mean on this thread but who claimed to be. This is no accident.

In this world, all there is are lessons. With so many lessons everywhere we turn we shouldn't be waiting for teachers, if we need one, and sometimes we all get stuck, there will be one, but hopefully the teachers are spending most of their day drinking coffee back at the van while we do the necessary work ourselves. Everyone and every situation we encounter are our teachers if we are humble and open to the lessons. We are here as humble students to learn in the greatest university of all. I don't think we came all this way to sit and hear lectures, we are in the field now. Perhaps the biggest lesson of all is to learn to look within and Know the answer is there.

CW

[Shadowman]

"Hello Tim,

Hmm.....

Over a a year ago I wrote.....hmm. Hmm, was my article. The moderators deleted it because they said is was meaningless.
I argued that it carried great meaning. They said, “but no one else's knows what that means!”

That's when I decided to use more words!

Free spirits are like that ...versatile!
Though a few people have told me to shut my mouth on this forum, I shall continue being a free spirit.

Tony"



Yes Tony, most awakened ones do (appear to) use speech for those who are not ready for silence. And to those identified with the rational mind, the truth does seem nonsensical and hard to grasp, with or without words.

Hence they stress the importance of direct realization and the way to it. Seekers can be led to the door, or the correct teacher for their level of understanding, but if they do not recognize the door/teacher, they will be unlikely to persevere in their practice of sadhana/vichara/dhyana etc. Ultimately each seeker must "walk the path" themselves, teachers can only shine the light on the path.


Warm Regards,
tim

PS So the silent transmission doesn't work so well on an internet forum, hmmm ;)

[Tony]

"Hello Tim,

Hmm.....

Over a a year ago I wrote.....hmm. Hmm, was my article. The moderators deleted it because they said is was meaningless.
I argued that it carried great meaning. They said, “but no one else's knows what that means!”

That's when I decided to use more words!

Free spirits are like that ...versatile!
Though a few people have told me to shut my mouth on this forum, I shall continue being a free spirit.

Tony"



Yes Tony, most awakened ones do (appear to) use speech for those who are not ready for silence. And to those identified with the rational mind, the truth does seem nonsensical and hard to grasp, with or without words.

Hence they stress the importance of direct realization and the way to it. Seekers can be led to the door, or the correct teacher for their level of understanding, but if they do not recognize the door/teacher, they will be unlikely to persevere in their practice of sadhana/vichara/dhyana etc. Ultimately each seeker must "walk the path" themselves, teachers can only shine the light on the path.


Warm Regards,
tim

PS So the silent transmission doesn't work so well on an internet forum, hmmm ;)






................................................. ....... ... . .!

[Jenci]

Some great thoughts in your post Ceedub, thanks.


I am loving this thread. It seems as though the composite of all the differing points of view paint a very useful and true portrait of 'Teacher'. The light of wisdom is bright here, thanks Fred. (btw, can wisdom be taught? Hold up I think that might be a whole other post...) It might seem to some readers that there is a divide between those who are speaking of looking within, remembering etc., and those who speak of the importance and significance of good teachers, looking outside. This is a false division as I see it however and I sense most others see that as well. It seems Knowledge comes from within while we find knowledge externally, this I think is where that artificial boundary lies.

It's not a choice between internal or external teachers. It's not either/or. Both apply. It's the holding onto the idea that something or someone is the teacher because as soon as we do that we create belief that says "I know this is my teacher". If we already know something, are we open to learning? As soon as we hold onto something, we are stuck.

When we don't know who the teacher is, we are open to what life presents us. Teachers will come and go. Lessons will come and go.....all of them arriving and going at exactly the right time that we need.





"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Great words of wisdom from one of the greatest teachers to grace this planet... ironic, perhaps but still true. Perhaps those words are best understood as wisdom rather than as K/kowledge but I'm trying to stay concise, don't laugh, I really am. As with all of the verses of the Tao Te Ching, this must be meditated on and digested slowly lest the student take it as solipsism or nihlism or just a condemnation of teachers generally. Such is Tao.
Perfect :) I agree entirely.



Anyone I meet who proclaims they Know are usually in my life to teach me about limitation and boxes.
I agree. I would also say that when I was proclaiming myself that "I knew" I was also teaching myself about the same.





A good teacher will aid one to raise their awareness, facts and figures may be helpful for that surely. A good teacher will inspire the student and dismantle limitations showing the way for the student to eclipse and go beyond the teachers highest heights. A good teacher is a catalyst. A good teacher opens up what is within. A good teacher is humble. A good teacher can be invaluable.
Excellent.

Assessing these qualities in others is easier than assessing them with ourselves. I've had an opportuntity to be a teacher not because I wanted to but because someone made me their teacher. There were good intentions on my part to be that catalyst for them and I did that but very sneakily the ego attached a very subtle hubris to my new role. The humility I recognised in teachers that I admired and gravitated towards was lacking in me and deep down I knew it but the attachment to being the "teacher" is very persuasive, particularly when the other party is benefiting so much from it.

Ulimately everything has to be seen through. It takes courage and sincerity to deal with what we hold onto. Humility is still a lesson that I am learning but I note that the more humble I become, the less I speak about this. Or does it work the other way, the less I speak about this, the more humble I become....

It's in living this, that the wisdom of the Chapter 56 of the Tao is seen - ""Those who know do not talk. Those who talk do not know."






Lindsey the cat taught me how to be comfortable in my skin, sleeping for a chance to dream, astral planes, imagination, time is an illusion, in stillness there is motion. Jenna the dog taught me everything I know about Loyalty and Truth, the honor of service, courage, the dignity of humility. These lessons are truely valuable to me and those teachers never knew their role... to be fair Lindsey might have.

My dogs were my teachers and I suspect that some of them knew that was the role they were here for :)





In this world, all there is are lessons. With so many lessons everywhere we turn we shouldn't be waiting for teachers

Nothing but lessons :) This is what it is about.





Everyone and every situation we encounter are our teachers if we are humble and open to the lessons. We are here as humble students to learn in the greatest university of all. I don't think we came all this way to sit and hear lectures, we are in the field now. Perhaps the biggest lesson of all is to learn to look within and Know the answer is there.



This is great insight. Thank you.

Jeanette

[Tony]

Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know.

Regarding this: this 'new age' is very fond of cherry picking phrases to suit its purpose. Many of these are taken from the Buddha. If these sayings are quoted out of context, they can be used to manipulate and to enhance our conceptual views (or even used as weapons).

What is sometimes not understood is that there are many vehicles within Buddhism, and the same words are used but the meaning of these words changes...perception changes!

Let's say there is the T path, the M path, the V path and M/D path...
The T path is all about personal enlightenment, and therefore when one knows, one doesn't need to say anything. One can just sit, chop wood, carry water.

The other paths consider Compassion to be of paramount importance: if one is resting in pure essence, in pure being, and one is satisfied with that, all well and good. But some find this can be rather dry, and lacks the juice of loving compassion. Another word for this is “Essence Love”.

And so one introduces back into one's experience a 'mere I' in order to communicate with others with loving kindness. There was an age where a gesture was enough, but that doesn't work now.

The sign of spiritual development is an increase in faith, compassion and intelligence.
Don't leave home without them!


Kind regards,
Tony

[Tony]

I received this, this morning!





Warm Heart Open Mind (2)
His Holiness the Dalai Lama

I think judging from the past experiences, and awareness about what happened in the past, I think now there is a greater chance or opportunity for this century to be more peaceful, more harmonious. I think you can make a great contribution regarding that. So now here as a conclusion I want to say one sentence which is that everywhere, children and students pay much attention to education, to the development of the brain.

It’s wonderful, it’s very good and very important. But sometimes they don’t pay equal attention to the development of a warm heart. Now please think more about this while you study, while you are getting brain development, think also about the sense of caring for one another; a compassionate sort of heart. And that’s very essential.

[Fred Steeves]

Hi Tony, this is a question in all seriousness my friend. Do you think that the teachings from Siddhartha have been passed down in their pure essence, with no convenient edits along the way? I'm thinking along the lines of Yeshua being conveniently misquoted from "I am A son of God", to "I am THE son of God". Just one little word can completely derail everything the person was trying to get across. No?

Is someone dis-respecting The Teaching by not following this common mis-translation, which is nothing more than a trap to give our power away?

I hear much good from the Dalai Lama, but also some things that cause me concern. This is not dis-respect for Buddhist Teachings, this is much practiced discernment.

Thoughts dear sir?

[13th Warrior]

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Sorry I cannot agree with this at all, it just does not make sense! It's so New Agey.
I've been to many many teachings by wonderful inspiring teachers, what would be the point of going there and the teacher saying nothing? One can easily sit in silence and totally totally misunderstand!....I did!

There very subtle levels of consciousness that can be misunderstood for 'being there', when in fact it is a blank vacant state. I've been to teaching that have explained this with great precision. How can one communicate finer details by saying nothing? What you will get is a mood, and that is useful. But that can easily be turned into a sentimental state.

As well as a heart, you have a head. They work together....don't leave home without either!

Tony

Hello pie n eal,

I agree with your assessment of the phrase as it is written.

Perhaps the meaning of the author is as stated; i don't know...

Perhaps what is meant(understood) is...Those who talk(loudest) do not know?

Is the adverb superfluous, for those who understand?

“The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.”
― Charles Bukowski

Another quote i'd like to add to the discussion is:

"Your wise man don't know, how it feels; to be thick as a brick"

[Mike]

Tony said: "those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know."

agreed. but boy, we do an awful lot of speaking here, don't we? i think most of us (myself included) have a long way to go. i have a terrible time imagining a truly enlightened person posting endless text on an internet forum;)

it's said that words are powerful, but i don't really agree. i think experiences are infinitely more powerful. but try and describe an experience, an experience composed mainly of *feelings* and *sensations*. and good luck!

zen masters understand this, and masters of other disciplines, and it's why they say very little, imo. to say or overly suggest anything will only cause the practitioner to develop prejudices or expectations, and this is distracting. furthermore it confuses people.

for example, there are arguments all over the forum about various spiritual practices, and i often wonder whether the people arguing are arguing about the same thing. i've only been meditating seriously for a month or so now, but i've had dozens of subjective experiences -- usually while meditating very deeply --and trying to line them up with the corresponding labels in the zen literature isn't always easy. i may think i've had such n such experience but due to the truly indescribable nature of the meditative experiences it's sometimes hard to tell. words are terribly limited.

@13th WArrior: thanks for that great Buk quote! the guy's a genius.

p.s. great thread, Fred.

[Tony]

Hi Tony, this is a question in all seriousness my friend. Do you think that the teachings from Siddhartha have been passed down in their pure essence, with no convenient edits along the way? I'm thinking along the lines of Yeshua being conveniently misquoted from "I am A son of God", to "I am THE son of God". Just one little word can completely derail everything the person was trying to get across. No?

Is someone dis-respecting The Teaching by not following this common mis-translation, which is nothing more than a trap to give our power away?

I hear much good from the Dalai Lama, but also some things that cause me concern. This is not dis-respect for Buddhist Teachings, this is much practiced discernment.

Thoughts dear sir?

Hello Fred,

What you say is so very important!
There are lineages that are directly handed down by word of mouth (breath). These are called transmissions. They are kept alive by genuine practice. Believe me, keeping up the transmission commitments take up a lot of time. Over the years teaching have be refined, and adapted for different cultures, but these are only methods, which adheres to, not too tight and not too loose.

The power comes from practice, and experience, plus popping down to see the teacher once a year to say, "I see it like this, is this so?" Now here is the thing, sometimes he'll say "No." So I have to review it, and I've been known to stick to my guns! It turned out to be a cultural difference.

There is much more to all this, and it's to do with practices that cannot really be spoken of in public, due to misunderstandings. You have no idea how much I have to sit on my tongue! In this case ...one does not talk!

Tony

[Tony]

Tony said: "those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know."

agreed. but boy, we do an awful lot of speaking here, don't we? i think most of us (myself included) have a long way to go. i have a terrible time imagining a truly enlightened person posting endless text on an internet forum;)

it's said that words are powerful, but i don't really agree. i think experiences are infinitely more powerful. but try and describe an experience, an experience composed mainly of *feelings* and *sensations*. and good luck!

zen masters understand this, and masters of other disciplines, and it's why they say very little, imo. to say or overly suggest anything will only cause the practitioner to develop prejudices or expectations, and this is distracting. furthermore it confuses people.

for example, there are arguments all over the forum about various spiritual practices, and i often wonder whether the people arguing are arguing about the same thing. i've only been meditating seriously for a month or so now, but i've had dozens of subjective experiences -- usually while meditating very deeply --and trying to line them up with the corresponding labels in the zen literature isn't always easy. i may think i've had such n such experience but due to the truly indescribable nature of the meditative experiences it's sometimes hard to tell. words are terribly limited.

@13th WArrior: thanks for that great Buk quote! the guy's a genius.

p.s. great thread, Fred.

Hello Chinaski,

You are right words words words...!

We need reminders, reminders reminders!

Once we understand the words, and constantly remember, then all we do is...love love love!

Yours thick,thick,thick for using words, words, words to need to be reminded, reminded, reminded!

Tony

[Mike]

usually, when i feel myself going on too much, or if my sentences have too much ornament, i can almost feel DonJuan leaning over my shoulder saying "you're a funny guy. you talk way too much."

then i usually strip my words down to their bare minimum, and shave a paragraph or 2 down to a couple meaningful (i hope) sentences. though words are very limited, it's almost always the barest, most skeletal sentences that are usually the ones that hit home best.

[Unified Serenity]

I think the spirit of what Tony said in the times I have heard that saying is more about hostile debate. When one is walking in their higher self and not letting the world get the better of them, the do not get into useless debates. I still debate if I feel there is a use, but once it shows as a useless situation I quit. I might joke and go off in another direction, but the effort to converse about it is gone for me because it's obvious they don't want to hear what I have to say or consider an other viewpoint from their own.

There is an old saying which most here have heard I am sure, "Those who can, do and those who can't, teach".

[13th Warrior]

"Those who can, do and those who can't, teach"

I don't like this quote; I've only ever seen it used as a condescending put down in a witless argument.

I find little too no wisdom in those words.

A teacher can only set the environment for learning to take place; the learning is up to the student.

[Unified Serenity]

Yes, I can see where you would not like that quote 13th warrior and it usually is said in an insulting manner. I think there is some truth in it though based on my experience in University getting my BS in Marketing, Management and Sociology. The best business professors were part time and very successful in the private sector. The useless ones were academics who had never made it in the private sector and found a nice job teaching. Having said that, we need teachers, but we also need teachers who come from a place of experience.

Let me ask you, if I went to Engineering school, got my masters and PhD and never tried to build a skyscraper or a bridge or road would you rather have me show up on your job site and oversee the work or would you rather have someone who has my credentials but has also been building such things for 20 years before you shell out 200 million dollars to pay me or him? Just a reality check. No offense intended.

[Dorjezigzag]

I feel that the circle is coming around again, I will just make my little addition (or maybe subtraction?) into the spiral.

The discussion seems to have moved to language, which is inevitable seeing that is the vehicle on this forum.

I am quoting someone else who is talking about someone else talking about language. that someone else is William Burroughs.



Burroughs claimed that language is infectious and exerts limitations and controls over people's minds by it's very existence and utility. He believed that the ability to think and create was limited by the conventions of grammar and usage. For example, most people have not difficulty grasping the idea of a "kitchen sink," but a "sinking kitchen" gives most of us pause. Most words and phrases in our native language are indelibly linked to the concept they represent. What comes to mind when I say black cat. I'll wager it wasn't a white horse. I'll further suggest that it wasn't a dark-colored boat, a dominatrix's whip, or an African-American jazz musician. Yet all are possibilities. Burroughs thought that eventually, such associations would eventually lead to complete thought control, by limiting the mind's ability to free associate. All possibilities would be accounted for by existing words in expected patterns.

Burroughs made his living in the medium of words, but he reportedly believed that "'Word and image locks' and 'association blocks' lock the mind into conventional patterns of thinking, speaking, acting, and perceiving things."' This led him to use a variety of techniques for breaking out of the virus's control including cutting and folding word groupings to form such gems as "The great skies are open. Supreme bugle burning flesh children to mist."

Sometimes there is a a need for silence, sometimes perhaps not.

I'm glad that people such as william burroughs, Jrr Tolkein, herman Hesse took some time to attempt to put there thoughts onto paper and did not remain silent.

We are all cherry pickers
some claim purity
but in reality we are all mongrels
standing on the shoulders of giants.
Even the Buddha

Some may not respect because of percieved illuminati connections but I think there is even a time for U2

Xh_AQUYvRvg

[13th Warrior]

Yes, I can see where you would not like that quote 13th warrior and it usually is said in an insulting manner. I think there is some truth in it though based on my experience in University getting my BS in Marketing, Management and Sociology. The best business professors were part time and very successful in the private sector. The useless ones were academics who had never made it in the private sector and found a nice job teaching. Having said that, we need teachers, but we also need teachers who come from a place of experience.

Let me ask you, if I went to Engineering school, got my masters and PhD and never tried to build a skyscraper or a bridge or road would you rather have me show up on your job site and oversee the work or would you rather have someone who has my credentials but has also been building such things for 20 years before you shell out 200 million dollars to pay me or him? Just a reality check. No offense intended.


Hi Unified Serenity,

Can you think of a more applicable hypothetical situation? I struggle with the one you've posed as it suggest inexperience as the core of the problem. Your quote would suggest that one can be experienced but, not adept at what they do.

No offense taken or offered.

[another bob]

"The role of the teacher is simply to be him or herself. That's really the ultimate role of the teacher. The role of the teacher is to respond to the questions of the student in such a way that the question is used to point back to the student's true nature, which is exactly the same as the teacher's true nature. So, ultimately the true desire of all authentic teachers is to put themselves out of business as quickly as possible. This means to have the student rise to the same level of consciousness that they are no longer needed. As long as a true teacher understands that, then their motivation will be very pure."

~Adyashanti

[Dorjezigzag]

"The role of the teacher is simply to be him or herself.

We appear to have an interesting contradiction with this statement because a role is

A role or a social role (also spelt rôle) is a set of connected behaviours, rights and obligations as conceptualised by actors in a social situation.


role
   [rohl] Show IPA
noun
1.
a part or character played by an actor or actress.
2.
proper or customary function: the teacher's role in society.
3.
Sociology . the rights, obligations, and expected behavior patterns associated with a particular social status.

so are you saying that a teacher should act like their self, not be their self.

Purity is another one of those interesting words, for if there is pure, then there must be impure.
Many religions claim to be pure lineages and criticise others for their impurity, some nationalities have claimed to be the master race, labelling others as impure.
The word pure for me is too self important but I respect peoples autonomy to use it.

That is why I prefer the word essence in relation to ones autonomous self, although like all language it undoubtedly has its shortcomings and infections. To say someone is not coming from essence does not seem so insulting as that they are impure.

I feel I need to add the definition of pure
pure
   [pyoor] Show IPA
adjective, pur·er, pur·est.
1.
free from anything of a different, inferior, or contaminating kind; free from extraneous matter: pure gold; pure water.
2.
unmodified by an admixture; simple or homogeneous.
3.
of unmixed descent or ancestry: a pure breed of dog.
4.
free from foreign or inappropriate elements: pure Attic Greek.
5.
clear; free from blemishes: pure skin.
EXPAND

[Unified Serenity]

Sure I can apply it another way. I want a teacher who can create or do what they themselves are telling me to do. If they cannot or have not tried, then they are speaking theory and not fact. In the case of a spiritual teacher, they will be known by their fruit. If they are teaching one how to have a sound life, be a good husband, wife, partner, keep one's house in order and I go to visit them and their house is in disorder, they are begging money or giving sermons on gifts and tithes often, if they are divorced and their children are unruly or if they have never been married then by their fruit they don't know what they are talking about.

As for the silent guru on the mountain top who may bequeath wisdom to some aspirant, there is little to struggle with in the world when one has removed themselves from it, and they themselves are doing nothing but taking up oxygen. It's better to be a master of some aspect and share that with open hearts than to be a master of all and help no one.

[Mike]

I feel that the circle is coming around again, I will just make my little addition (or maybe subtraction?) into the spiral.

The discussion seems to have moved to language, which is inevitable seeing that is the vehicle on this forum.

I am quoting someone else who is talking about someone else talking about language. that someone else is William Burroughs.



Burroughs claimed that language is infectious and exerts limitations and controls over people's minds by it's very existence and utility. He believed that the ability to think and create was limited by the conventions of grammar and usage. For example, most people have not difficulty grasping the idea of a "kitchen sink," but a "sinking kitchen" gives most of us pause. Most words and phrases in our native language are indelibly linked to the concept they represent. What comes to mind when I say black cat. I'll wager it wasn't a white horse. I'll further suggest that it wasn't a dark-colored boat, a dominatrix's whip, or an African-American jazz musician. Yet all are possibilities. Burroughs thought that eventually, such associations would eventually lead to complete thought control, by limiting the mind's ability to free associate. All possibilities would be accounted for by existing words in expected patterns.

Burroughs made his living in the medium of words, but he reportedly believed that "'Word and image locks' and 'association blocks' lock the mind into conventional patterns of thinking, speaking, acting, and perceiving things."' This led him to use a variety of techniques for breaking out of the virus's control including cutting and folding word groupings to form such gems as "The great skies are open. Supreme bugle burning flesh children to mist."

Sometimes there is a a need for silence, sometimes perhaps not.

I'm glad that people such as william burroughs, Jrr Tolkein, herman Hesse took some time to attempt to put there thoughts onto paper and did not remain silent.

We are all cherry pickers
some claim purity
but in reality we are all mongrels
standing on the shoulders of giants.
Even the Buddha

Some may not respect because of percieved illuminati connections but I think there is even a time for U2

Xh_AQUYvRvg



well you've got me thinking '1984' here, and the way the man in the 'Ministry of Truth' had bragged to Winston that he'd cut the current dictionary of 'Newspeak' in half, eliminating many of the 'unnecessary' words.

the goal: to remove nuance, and therefore nuanced thought.

"tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance." -- Albert Maysles

[Fred Steeves]

Purity is another one of those interesting words

Alrighty then, you lost me with that one Dorjezigzag. If you have a reasonable counter view to put forth on this thread, then please feel free to do so, minus the gaming of semantics. O.K.?

Thanks,
Fred

[mosquito]

I'm saddened to see that this thread appears to be going the way of so many threads on Avalon ........

I may be completely wrong, but I thought Fred's intention with this thread was to highlight how there are many situations in life where a teacher is not only unnecessary, but at times completely counter-productive. There is no need fo any "teachers", real or self-proclaimed ro take offence at this point of view.

Tony - If I want to learn how to paint, sing, fence, speak Arabic - then OF COURSE I need a teacher ! No-one is denying that. But when it comes to being me and living authentically, it is the height of arrogance to assume that you or anyone else can teach me, or to assume that your particular path is the "right" path for everyone. Countless times over the last 10 years or so, life its-self (or Dao, or God, or dharma, whatever you want to call it) has shown me that I need to learn things for myself, by being, by living, by experiencing. Your labelling of the Dao De Jing as "new age" is insulting and is unworthy of your wisdom. If you really fail to comprehend its' meaning, contemplate any of our politicians, you choose, they speak about "peace" and "human rights", yet what do they do ?

In my opinion, our world is too full of people who think they know best, whether they be scientists, moralists or gurus. Of course we need teachers to help us learn new skills, but when it comes to the really important things, life and experience are the best teachers. Ask any parent or, dare I say it, teacher. My students have humbled me and taught me so much, especially in this past month, and I value that above any self-styled "master".

[another bob]

As for the silent guru on the mountain top who may bequeath wisdom to some aspirant, there is little to struggle with in the world when one has removed themselves from it, and they themselves are doing nothing but taking up oxygen.

Several famous Indian Swamis had gone West to bring the Vedantic knowledge to America, including Vivekananda and Yogananda. A devotee asked Bhagavan Nityananda if he too would be going. He answered, "One has to go abroad only if one cannot see places from here or deal with people there."


http://i45.tinypic.com/97rvx2.jpg

[Mike]

As for the silent guru on the mountain top who may bequeath wisdom to some aspirant, there is little to struggle with in the world when one has removed themselves from it, and they themselves are doing nothing but taking up oxygen.

Several famous Indian Swamis had gone West to bring the Vedantic knowledge to America, including Vivekananda and Yogananda. A devotee asked Bhagavan Nityananda if he too would be going. He answered, "One has to go abroad only if one cannot see places from here or deal with people there."


http://i45.tinypic.com/97rvx2.jpg



"one must have cosmetic surgery if one is to rid oneself of man-boobs" -- Chinaski

p.s. sorry Bob, i just couldn't help myself;)

[crested-duck]

I can see and relate to both sides of this subject/debate because of my learned/researched written knowledge and my hands on experience, very much like Freds path.There have been times I wasn't exactly sure how to approach a construction related problem over the years. But instinctually I went and found the oldest most experienced carpenter/contractor I could find and asked for helpfull advice. And always got what I needed exactly when I needed it from the older men who no longer had a dog in the fight. But asking young guys was/is useless because they look at me as their competition. Needless to say the old boys most always sent me in the correct direction, but it was still me that had to do the actual work myself to gain the required hands on experience and greater self confidence to complete the work .The only difference between a ok job and a excellent job is a little more time and effort.There's a right tool for every job, you have to know what it is and how to use it properly. Sometimes that requires a teacher in one form or another!---Rob

[Tony]

I'm saddened to see that this thread appears to be going the way of so many threads on Avalon ........

I may be completely wrong, but I thought Fred's intention with this thread was to highlight how there are many situations in life where a teacher is not only unnecessary, but at times completely counter-productive. There is no need fo any "teachers", real or self-proclaimed ro take offence at this point of view.

Tony - If I want to learn how to paint, sing, fence, speak Arabic - then OF COURSE I need a teacher ! No-one is denying that. But when it comes to being me and living authentically, it is the height of arrogance to assume that you or anyone else can teach me, or to assume that your particular path is the "right" path for everyone. Countless times over the last 10 years or so, life its-self (or Dao, or God, or dharma, whatever you want to call it) has shown me that I need to learn things for myself, by being, by living, by experiencing. Your labelling of the Dao De Jing as "new age" is insulting and is unworthy of your wisdom. If you really fail to comprehend its' meaning, contemplate any of our politicians, you choose, they speak about "peace" and "human rights", yet what do they do ?

In my opinion, our world is too full of people who think they know best, whether they be scientists, moralists or gurus. Of course we need teachers to help us learn new skills, but when it comes to the really important things, life and experience are the best teachers. Ask any parent or, dare I say it, teacher. My students have humbled me and taught me so much, especially in this past month, and I value that above any self-styled "master".


How can words on a page tell one what to do? This is a forum, to discuss matter. The teacher can have many levels, for some, toilet is a teacher, it reminds one of the impermanence of aaaaaaall matter! Everyone and everything is or can be our teacher. What we are talking about is the 'speed' that suits us. How directly or the shortest path we want to go. We are not all at the same 'speed'.....keenest. Most os this 'speed' is to do with dropping what is unnecessary, but that is a individual choice.

From what is gathered here, it seem that people do not fear teachers, they fear their own mind, not being able to deal with the their own responses.
We do learn from everyone and every encounter, because the teacher is....the reaction in the mind! That's when we learn what needs to be dropped.

However I do apologise for saying all this, as it sound like teaching!.....what to do? I'll get my coat!;)


Tony

[Fred Steeves]

However I do apologise for saying all this, as it sound like teaching!.....


Nah, we're just chatting, and a fine chat it is too!...

[Fred Steeves]

I was just spending some time getting caught up on Rahkyt's Ear tones thread, and came across a post by Charlie Pecos that I think fits in very timely with this thread, especially the last part. So here it is:

Hi Rahkyt,

You know, it's interesting you should bring up learning from others. This concept has spent much time of late rolling around in my mind. I think of all those who I worked with and for in the past and I reflect on how much I learned from them. I learned many things I don't think the other person ever intended to teach, yet there it is. I think that's the way it is for most people. We learn from others constantly by watching and observing. We make mental notes, and at least for myself personally, we change how we walk through this experience accordingly. I think that this is the way to be a teacher to others, an unintentional teacher. As we grow and develop spiritually and as humans, we conduct ourselves in an ever evolving manner- Ascension. This particular incarnation seems to be on fast forward. I think that many of us are learning lessons that would have taken us many lifetimes to figure out before this time.

[mosquito]

However I do apologise for saying all this, as it sound like teaching!.....




Nah, we're just chatting, and a fine chat it is too!...

Keep the coat ON brother, no need to go anywhere !!!

You said it yourself - anything and everything teaches us in some way.

An example if I may - Last week my portable diskdrive (500 GB) decided it no longer wished to be read. I took it to the shop, they sent it to the manufacturers and ... it's stuffed. Pissed off does not adequately describe my state of mind, it was almost half full with copies of ALL my photos, videos, private documents etc. etc., some of which I had no other copies of !!! I'd deleted everything I've downloaded over the past year in order to keep my laptop unclutered, and now It's gone. Fortunately, the really imporatnt stuff I still have, but the lesson is simple - attachment. There was plenty of material which I don't need and it's time to let go of.

[ThePythonicCow]

Last week my portable diskdrive (500 GB) decided it no longer wished to be read. I took it to the shop, they sent it to the manufacturers and ... it's stuffed.
Backups :).

[Jenci]

To realise the role that silence can play in teaching, let's differentiate between the nature of our minds and our true nature.

Our mind’s nature – to understand, organise, make sense.

Our true nature – silence (out of which everything arises, including infinite wisdom)

Owing to its nature, the mind is a very effective tool for problem solving but it is not the source of our identity, although most people believe it is. The role of the spiritual teacher is to point us away from our minds, so that we stop using our mind as a reference point of identification and we go beyond it, to realise our true nature.

The first thing that the spiritual seeker wants to do, is understand what the teacher is talking about and this creates a difficulty. The need to understand, is the mind, as this is its nature. To allow the student to continue to try to understand what is being taught, puts attention onto the mind and re-enforces the mind to be the source of identification.

In other words the mind is saying “I need to understand this”. If the student acts on this thought and tries to understand then the student believes the mind is the “I” which created the thought that it needs to understand. Therefore the student is identified with the mind.

So the last thing the spiritual teacher wants to do is re-enforce the need of the student’s mind to understand. The teacher wants to free their identification with their mind and turn their attention to go beyond the mind, onto their true nature.

As I stated above, our true nature is silence as opposed to the mind’s nature which is the need to understand. So very often the teacher will use the silence to convey a sense of their true nature to the student, giving the student the opportunity and awareness to differentiate between the two and to stop paying attention to the mind’s need to understand.

The line from the Tao te Ching "Those who know do not talk. Those who talk do not know" doesn't mean that no words are used. This verse was written from the infinite wisdom, which arises from the silence of our true nature.

If it is read from the mind, which tries to make sense of it, it will most likely seem like nonsense. This is OK, as the mind is doing exactly what it is meant to do but the earnest seeker should not dismiss the wisdom. It will make sense as more is revealed during the awakening process and the identification with the mind is freed.

Some time ago, I went to see the spiritual teacher Eckhart Tolle. He was teaching to a large audience in big auditorium. As he sat on the stage ready to begin a 2 hour speech, there were quite a few people in the audience who took out notebooks and pens.

Tolle began by saying that he advised people to put away their notebooks and not to take notes on what he was saying. They didn’t listen though and I think he repeated it another two times before he began. They still didn’t listen though.

It was an important instruction from the teacher but to the student’s mind, which needs to understand, it doesn’t make sense.

To take notes during a two hour talk, the student would have to be using their mind to listen but Tolle was not talking to their minds. His talk was to convey a sense of what our true nature is by appealing to our true nature, which is lying dormant within the seeking student, hidden by the thoughts of the mind.

That which needs to understand, will understand when attention can be shifted away from the mind.

The role of the spiritual teacher is to shift the student’s attention away from and to go beyond their minds. Really, there is no understanding needed as our true nature doesn’t need to understand. It just needs to remember.

[ulli]

To me Avalon is like a university. I have learnt tons here in just the last few months.
But I also noticed quite a few people here express their belief that nothing from outside of us
should be accepted, while it is evident that they are expecting others to accept their statements.

This is just as absurd as taking all information from others as gospel.
Inner and outer teachings, both are necessary.

Outer teachings is called tuition, education, indoctrination, even brainwashing.
Inner teachings is IN-tuition. It serves us to discern what to discard, and what to absorb.
But even intuition can be misleading as those inner voices could still be originating from an outside source.

So it comes back to making a conscious choice, carefully evaluated.
And what about those feral children then?
Like Kaspar Hauser?
Deprived of all education and human contact and instead raised by animals.

[Mark]

It is ALL ok. Coming to that realization is coming to the recognition that we don't have to beat others over the head with anything. I used to teach college classes. Introductory Geography classes. Physical, human. Students paid to go to the colleges I taught at, they paid to sit in a chair and listen to me pontificate on different aspects of geography. I did not go out in the street to scream at them. There has to be a willingness factor on the part of those who become privy to the information presented. A free will choice.


Yes Mark, don't know if you meant to or not here, but I think you touch very well on the subtleties of "those who know do not talk". I've never found that to mean an absolute either way, between "talking" or "not talking". It's like everything else in life, if the action is appropriate then do it, if not then don't.

If say, me and a neighbor find ourselves sipping a couple of frosty cold ones one evening together, and they wind up asking me something like: " So Fred, have you ever thought about what 'all this' is about?", then certainly I would share, to a point of course, all depending. But, if I just belly up to the bar at me local pub for a couple of frosties, it's a different story. Now of course knowing me(LOL), I'll likely wind up raising a few unsuspecting eyebrows anyway before I pull up stakes, but I reckon ya'll know what I mean.

I do know what you mean. I tend to let others lead the conversation in group situations like that, accepting it as it is and, if possible, entering the conversation only in support of the general flow of conversation. I'm not much for small talk or banter. I don't watch sports regularly and so can't participate in those conversations and politics and religion, which I know a lot about, are things you're not supposed to bring up, especially in venues where alcohol is part of the social entertainment. It's all good though. In those situations, I end up watching mostly, designated driver kind of attitude. Taking care of those I came with and people-watching.

Now, if someone asks me a pointed question, "Katie, bar the door", as my old HS Basketball coach used to say.

There has been a great convo ongoing regarding that quote, "those who know vs those who don't know", there is little I can add. Great quotes, awesome interpretations going straight to the point, silence vs speech, teaching vs learning, higher mind vs ego. Every experience, every person we interact with and sometimes those we don't are our teachers.

What I might say in addition is only that all is well.

But I think that phrase is pretty well taken too.

Carry on! LOL

:wizard:

[mosquito]

Last week my portable diskdrive (500 GB) decided it no longer wished to be read. I took it to the shop, they sent it to the manufacturers and ... it's stuffed.
Backups :).

Backups of BACKUPS - to be precise !! Yes, I should know :p

[Carmen]

I had quite a useful lesson this past week. I was observing the progress of a young horse I bred that is being 'started' by a local trainer. 'Starting' a young horse in the natural way as opposed to the old way of 'breaking in' is a process of desensitisation and sensitisation to being around humans and being ridden. This is done by way of groundwork exercises and ridden exercises. The horse gradually trusts the leadership/alpha position of the human and 'gives' its mind/body to the directions of the trainer/rider. When this training is well on the ridden horse is soft, light on the bit, it responds to subtle cues and is ready for any cues the rider gives it. This willing partnership is a joy to experience.

I got to thinking about this and decided that there are many similarities to training a horse and training the human personality, bodymind!! I kid you not! The human bodymind personality, once in contact with the greater spiritual Self starts a similar training of willing cooperation to a greater intelligence. And, the human personality can be likened to a wild horse out of control, reactive, biting, kicking, running in fear. A horse can be an emotional mess just like some humans, especially if they have been abused in some way. I did say in another thread that I can learn from anything!!LOL. Also, it takes time to train the personality just as it does a horse. One must be consistent, persistent and patient. The rewards come in there own time and are quite magical.

[mosquito]

Indeed Carmen, and children respond much better to love, affection and encouragement than to threats and violence, simple really !!!;)

[Jenci]

I did say in another thread that I can learn from anything!!


And this is what it is about. Being open and available to learn from anything rather than fixated on a specific 'teacher'.

Fascinating about the horses too :)
Jeanette

[Sebastion]

I would like to take this moment to say "thank you" to all of you! My 1st love is learning. Everyone here is my teacher and there is seldom a day that goes by that something, somewhere on this forum cannot be learned, if you are of a mind to learn.

I have come to grow fond of many of you because you impart sound wisdom in your postings. Jorr was an excellent example of the fondness I speak of. Because of the various posts which make me think and reflect I have come to see that unity consciousness within the self is the direction to go in, at least for me. I am now traveling that particular path.

My deep and sincere thanks to all of you for just being genuinely-you-!









However I do apologise for saying all this, as it sound like teaching!.....


Nah, we're just chatting, and a fine chat it is too!...

[21CC]

As has been a constant for me while reading these threads of our forum, referencing wikis, and following various video tutorials online; I glow with gratitude toward the individuals that freely share their knowledge, skills, wit, charm, opinions, and facets of their individuality. The folks that take time to communicate their articulate thoughts or add to existing works, or say, upload a video of how to play "Margaritaville" on ukulele complete with chords and lyrics, are sending out gifts that will resound infinitely. This they do without ever knowing the magnitude of their reach! Thank you!

[crested-duck]

We all give a little bit and teach each other! :cool:--Robx1Uicc-6I-M

[Dorjezigzag]

My view was not counter it attempted to add to the knowledge and draw attention to the limits of language. You may have noticed that I actually liked the post I was commenting on.

Just because you cannot follow me in this knowledge and you are lost does not mean it has no relevance.
I honestly have a problem with the word purity again you question others intentions?

Semantics is extremely important If you had read my posts on the previous teachers thread (why did you feel the need to start a new one?), you will see how I posted a thread regarding IN SEARCH OF THE MIRACULOUS, by P. D. OUSPENSKY which fittingly for this thread is a book written by the student Ouspensky about his teacher Gurdjieeff.

Castaneda was highly influenced by Gurdjieeff


Anyway to cut a long story short A successful beginning of work on oneself requires the happy occurrence of an equal development of personality and essence. Such an occurrence will give the greatest assurance of success.
The work requires personality to work with the essence.
Personality is one's entire influence that has been taken from the external world it is entirely 'other' (impure?) which can then work with the essence

purity in my opinion does not encapsulate enlightenment,

In my opinion this is the reason that many people attempt to destroy their personality thinking that what is left is pure essence or non ego state. Usually what is left is a damaged easily controllable husk.

The path of destroying the ego is mistaken as realised by John Lennon when he realised that he was destroying himself.

One has to identify ones essence, not an easy task and even more so for some due to choices and perhaps conditioning and then work on this with the personality.

Fred If you wish to define my intention can you please try to appreciate other peoples viewpoints even if it is outside your experience, before insinuating that they are gaming. OK?

Thanks Dorje





Purity is another one of those interesting words

Alrighty then, you lost me with that one Dorjezigzag. If you have a reasonable counter view to put forth on this thread, then please feel free to do so, minus the gaming of semantics. O.K.?

Thanks,
Fred

[Carmen]

Dorjezigzag, I understand, I think, what you are getting at. In my understanding, and experience, the ego is not wrong, evil, or anything else. It's part of our divine makeup. It is a misguided child, disconnected from its great parent in consciousness, left to make its own way in the world and therefore it's only source of information on how to proceed is given by outside sources, parents,friends, enemies, school, government. It then becomes altered, controlled by others with no real autonomy of its own. The great source within the being is still there but covered over by a thick veil of conditioning.

It sometimes takes a huge shock or great change of some sort to pause that chatter, that belief, and for the greater intelligence to make itself known. If the being gives attention to the wonder of that, the learning can begin, otherwise the veil just drops again. It can take months and sometimes years for another parting of the veil, but once experienced its never forgotten. The altered ego can then start to be guided in the ways of spirit, but it's like a wilful child, it takes time, persistence and patience. And I agree with you, it's a partnership. The ego is the expert on earthly sensory bodily matters, the spirit is not. Nothing we have in our makeup is a mistake, it's all perfect, it's just that we have forgotten this partnership. We are disconnected from it. It a matter of remembering.

[Fred Steeves]

It sometimes takes a huge shock or great change of some sort to pause that chatter, that belief, and for the greater intelligence to make itself known. If the being gives attention to the wonder of that, the learning can begin, otherwise the veil just drops again. It can take months and sometimes years for another parting of the veil, but once experienced its never forgotten. The altered ego can then start to be guided in the ways of spirit, but it's like a wilful child, it takes time, persistence and patience. And I agree with you, it's a partnership. The ego is the expert on earthly sensory bodily matters, the spirit is not. Nothing we have in our makeup is a mistake, it's all perfect, it's just that we have forgotten this partnership. We are disconnected from it. It a matter of remembering.

Nice summary Carmen! All I can do is nod my head and say "yep". http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/yes4.gif

[Ceedub]

There have been so many good posts on this thread lately. It has been made aparent that understanding language is essential to understanding the topic at hand. Introducing the Tower of Babel archtype, or rather Orwellian language concerns and the ideas of Gurdjieeff, are very timely additions to the conversation. I am also delighted that Lao Tzu has become a centerpiece of this discussion. Considering language manipulation and limitation prompted me to dust off the several translations of Tao Teh Ching sitting about the shelves here.

I was first concerned that the "those who know" quote was at risk of being oversimplified especially regarding the choice of the word "talk". There seems to be nuance between the idea of talking and the idea of written or vocal communication or communication in general. Checking the different translations I have, I was reminded how strikingly different they are. Different passages seem to carry whole different meanings in the various translations. One translation uses "talk" while another uses "speak" for example, which have subtle differences in association I think. Both are distinct from the bare concept of choosing to use language to teach or not.

There is also some subtlety in context as well. Perhaps, given the focus the quote has received it is time to quote verse 56 in full. I quote from the Feng/English translation:


Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.

Keep your mouth closed.
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the earth.
This is primal union.

He who has achieved this state
Is unconcerned with friends and enemies,
With good and harm, with honor and disgrace.
This therefore is the highest state of man.

So in the broader context it is more a poetic expression about "primal union" and "the highest state of man" rather than a simple statement of fact regarding teachers and talkers. Works of great wisdom like the Tao Teh Ching are best appreciated if they are revisited through out the course of the student's development and the good student will find new meaning on each visit. Well I might as well quote the Wu translation while I'm at it:


He who knows does not speak.
He who speaks does not know.

Block all the passages!
Shut all the doors!
Blunt all edges!
Untie all tangles!
Harmonize all lights!
Unite the world into one whole!
This is called the Mystical Whole,
Which you cannot court after nor shun,
Benefit nor harm, honour nor humble.

Therefore, it is the Highest of the world.


Verse 56, Wu

The first thing I notice is the apparent difference between "blunting" and "Tempering all sharpness", and the difference between "mask your brightness" and "harmonize all lights". So we can see the tower of Babel influencing the transmission of wisdom here. This alone should give the reader pause before they take anything too literally or try and understand such things through the mind alone.

While flipping through these books, literally flipping the pages and letting them fall open as they will, I came across a couple of other on topic gems:


Keep your mouth shut,
Guard the senses,
And life is ever full.
Open your mouth,
Always be busy,
And life is beyond hope.

Verse 52, Feng/English, excerpt


Truthful words are not beautiful.
Beautiful words are not truthful.
Good men do not argue.
Those who argue are not good.
Those who know are not learned.
The learned do not know.

Verse 81, Feng/English, excerpt

Compare to the Wu translation:


Sincere words are not sweet,
Sweet words are not sincere.
Good men are not argumentative,
The argumentative are not good.
The wise are not erudite,
The erudite are not wise.

Verse 81, Wu, excerpt


What is a good man?
A teacher of a bad man.
What is a bad man?
A good man's charge.
If the teacher is not respected,
And the student not cared for,
Confusion will arise, however clever one is.
This is the crux of mystery.

Verse 27 Feng/English excerpt

Compare to Wu:


Hence, good men are teachers of bad men,
While bad men are the charge of good men.
Not to revere one's teacher.
Not to cherish one's charge,
Is to be on the wrong road, however intelligent one may be.
This is an essential tenet of the Tao.

Verse 27, Wu, excerpt


The Tao is elusive and intangible.

Verse 21, Feng/English, excerpt

Appologies for being a bit of a bore, I just wanted to hang a light over the centerpiece. Now back to the real conversation which is far more interesting than picking over Lao Tzu.

CW

[Mark]

I haven't read the Tao in a while. I remember pondering over the text we've been talking about for quite a while. I've mentioned in other threads how the Buddha didn't preach. He answered questions. He spoke when spoken to and directly to the point. He also didn't answer some questions. He chose silence. The wise choose silence. When they don't have anything to say, they don't talk. He and others represent the epitome of this type of development, how the personality becomes a reflection of one's inner state at a certain point.

Words remain power. The vibrations they create are actually a form of energy, a waveform that can carry the suble energy of the emotions to the intended target(s).

You don't talk just to talk. You talk for a purpose. You teach for a purpose.

Wasted words can be harmful and indicative of a mind prone to discursiveness or overly emotional states.

[Ceedub]

I haven't read the Tao in a while. I remember pondering over the text we've been talking about for quite a while. I've mentioned in other threads how the Buddha didn't preach. He answered questions. He spoke when spoken to and directly to the point. He also didn't answer some questions. He chose silence. The wise choose silence. When they don't have anything to say, they don't talk. He and others represent the epitome of this type of development, how the personality becomes a reflection of one's inner state at a certain point.

Words remain power. The vibrations they create are actually a form of energy, a waveform that can carry the suble energy of the emotions to the intended target(s).

You don't talk just to talk. You talk for a purpose. You teach for a purpose.

Wasted words can be harmful and indicative of a mind prone to discursiveness or overly emotional states.

Wise words indeed. I think Buddha is kind of the symbol for the archtype of the great teacher. If a student were to ask one such as Buddha if they had their lesson correct, or about some Truth or other the answer, if not silence or a whack with a stick would likely be "what is mu?" A good teacher will not rob a student of discovery with their words.

[Fred Steeves]

Actually CW, I think you may have just opened up a whole new dimension to this conversation. Thank you for that! The whole reason I chose to re-open this subject, was that I can see pretty clearly now that there is some sort of communication breakdown between supposed "followers of teachers", and "non-followers of teachers". It looks to be a false debate to me, but how to settle a false debate, with language that is wide open to interpretation? Especially this generic type written word.

Your examples are very pertinent. I always like the example of did Yeshua supposedly say "I am THE Son of God", or "I am A son of God". Big difference huh? My thinking is that the written, passed down words from Masters of days gone by are of immeasurable value, right up until the point to where they aren't any more. And to boot, this is exactly as they intended.

I've read through my version of "The Kybalion" 4 times I think it is now, and each time I saw things that somehow weren't there before.(LOL) Just lately am I beginning to comprehend why Hermes, upon being asked a certain question, answered with nothing but his finger crossing his lips, accompanied with "shhhhhh".

Passed down wisdom can prepare the student for their real education/remembrance, and nothing more IMHO. And thankfully that is still around, for the higher truths to be sifted through by the occassional curious, and thus homesick soul, seeking a starting gate for the Great Return!

Please tell me (I mean anyone), are these ancient truths there just to lead us to a certain destination, or a brand new beginning?

So here I guess is what I'm trying to get across. I've read books, listened to the interviews of the "big shots", watched the documentaries by the Gregg Braden's and what have you, and not a one of them could teach me how to notice what a gentle breeze is telling me, by the way it hits my skin just so. Are you with me? All that studying can prepare the student to be of mind to accept...Whatever...That...Is... But it cannot take them by the hand to the bull's eye of their inner truth. That is necessarily a solitary journey.

I know it's alredy been said here, but maybe it's worth reiterirating. Being a teacher should be as brief of a service to another as possible, and then of course the teacher is humbled by the lesson of "teaching". If the teacher was not humbled by their service, then the student has been mislead. There's a pattern developing here isn't there?

Hmmmmm...

[mosquito]

....
I was first concerned that the "those who know" quote was at risk of being oversimplified especially regarding the choice of the word "talk". There seems to be nuance between the idea of talking and the idea of written or vocal communication or communication in general. Checking the different translations I have, I was reminded how strikingly different they are. Different passages seem to carry whole different meanings in the various translations. ....


An excellent post !!

I'll elaborate a little on your discovery, if I may ......

Translating between different languages is never an exact science, especially when we're translating languages from different families, languages with radically different structure, grammar and, importantly, world view. The Dao De Jing was written in ancient Chinese, which is written with an economy of style that is bemusing to the likes of you and I. Most Chinese people struggle with the Dao De Jing, so it's no easy task for a foreigner to make an accurate translation. That said, I've found that it needs to be read with the right brain, i.e. the non-logical, non-rational mind. It also needs to be read with the heart, and meditated on. Even then, there are passages which remain quite elusive, which I suppose is why it annoys so many people and they discard it as some sort of gibberish. Note that the subtle nuances in the meaning of speak and talk don't exist in Chinese, so neither translation is "wrong".

OK, so passage 56 actually says (in simplified script) this ....

知者不言, 言者不知 (zhi zhe bu yan, yan zhe bu zhi)

zhi means know; yan, in modern Chinese simply means word, in ancient Chinese it also meant to talk; bu means not; zhe is a verbal suffix meaning "a person who".

Which gives us - "know (person who) not word, word (person who) not know - So you get my point !! :confused:

Delving into the Do De Jing in order to improve my understanding of the language is a constant joy, and frustration

I'm glad you've got several tarnslations Ceedub, that's by far the best approach, unless you can read Chinese of course ! I only have one at the moment, which is a leeeetle too analytical for my mind, and it loses some of the poetry.

[Mark]

There are a lot of translations on the net. Here's an interesting one:


56.

Those who know don't like to say
Those who say don't know
Close the mouth and guard the senses
You'll see more than what's on show

Untie tangles, dim the glare
Dull the sharp and join the dust
Abide in primal unity
And then do what you must

You cannot hold it or let go
It can't be blamed or praised
In all-embracing oneness
Be astonished and amazed


Here's a link to a page with many online versions of the Tao (http://www.vl-site.org/taoism/ttc-list.html).

[mosquito]

There are a lot of translations on the net. Here's an interesting one:


56.

Those who know don't like to say
Those who say don't know
Close the mouth and guard the senses
You'll see more than what's on show

Untie tangles, dim the glare
Dull the sharp and join the dust
Abide in primal unity
And then do what you must

You cannot hold it or let go
It can't be blamed or praised
In all-embracing oneness
Be astonished and amazed


Here's a link to a page with many online versions of the Tao (http://www.vl-site.org/taoism/ttc-list.html).

The problem with that one is that ..
a) line 1 is not a faithful representation of the original, which contains nothing about "liking",
b) none of the rest of it bears any resemblance to what's being said, and
c) typical new age here - it's been made to rhyme in English !!!!

So while I value your contribution, this is a typical attempt (not by you Rahkyt) by someone to "disneyfy" a beautiful poetical truth.

Some interesting translations on the provided link - all goes to show how difficult it is to really pin it down. I stick by what I said this morning - read it with your heart, and meditate upon it.

[Sebastion]

It didn't take me long after I started my one and only thread on Avalon to realize some things, understandings, nuances of thought, etc, cannot be conveyed through the use of words regardless of language. Language is severely limited and limiting in many instances.

There are a number of good wordsmiths on this forum and I envy their ability to write as clearly as they do. I have noted that even when two or more people have similar experiences, their descriptions can be vastly different in the wording of it.

[Ceedub]

....
I was first concerned that the "those who know" quote was at risk of being oversimplified especially regarding the choice of the word "talk". There seems to be nuance between the idea of talking and the idea of written or vocal communication or communication in general. Checking the different translations I have, I was reminded how strikingly different they are. Different passages seem to carry whole different meanings in the various translations. ....


An excellent post !!

I'll elaborate a little on your discovery, if I may ......

Translating between different languages is never an exact science, especially when we're translating languages from different families, languages with radically different structure, grammar and, importantly, world view. The Dao De Jing was written in ancient Chinese, which is written with an economy of style that is bemusing to the likes of you and I. Most Chinese people struggle with the Dao De Jing, so it's no easy task for a foreigner to make an accurate translation. That said, I've found that it needs to be read with the right brain, i.e. the non-logical, non-rational mind. It also needs to be read with the heart, and meditated on. Even then, there are passages which remain quite elusive, which I suppose is why it annoys so many people and they discard it as some sort of gibberish. Note that the subtle nuances in the meaning of speak and talk don't exist in Chinese, so neither translation is "wrong".

OK, so passage 56 actually says (in simplified script) this ....

知者不言, 言者不知 (zhi zhe bu yan, yan zhe bu zhi)

zhi means know; yan, in modern Chinese simply means word, in ancient Chinese it also meant to talk; bu means not; zhe is a verbal suffix meaning "a person who".

Which gives us - "know (person who) not word, word (person who) not know - So you get my point !! :confused:

Delving into the Do De Jing in order to improve my understanding of the language is a constant joy, and frustration

I'm glad you've got several tarnslations Ceedub, that's by far the best approach, unless you can read Chinese of course ! I only have one at the moment, which is a leeeetle too analytical for my mind, and it loses some of the poetry.

Ha! Excellent, now we're talking!

What a gift to have a teacher in this conversation with such knowledge. Much Gratitude Mariposafe.

CW

[Tony]

A teacher is anything we learn something from.
A student is someone who will learn from everything.
An idiot learns nothing.

[Fred Steeves]

An idiot learns nothing.

Until they atleast learn that they are an idiot that is.

[Dorjezigzag]

The direction the thread has encouraged me to look back at a dissertation I wrote on the shamanic qualities of film and TV in the late 90s. I was lucky that my tutor was a practising witch who could appreciate where I was coming from, although she had different beliefs she could appreciate my viewpoints. Normally academia would have laughed at a work that sources Castaneda, Burroughs and various magical texts.

I have seen so many people whose essence has been smothered by academia as can happen with some so called spiritual groups who I believe would be more correctly defined as cults.
Anyway I have included this excerpt because of the current translations considerations from ancient Chinese to English. I would be interested if mariposafe could confirm the dyslexia statement I have made, which was not based on experience but taken from scientific papers.





William Boroughs the experimental artist, film- maker and writer had a keen and sympathetic interest in shamanic ways of perception. Like Artaud who saw theatre as a potential disease, Boroughs saw language as a virus; sharing Artauds belief that language and the spoken word made mankind slaves to the linear verbal experience at the expense of non-verbal experience.
He was interested in finding out what words are and how they function.
‘They become images when written down, but images of words repeated in the mind and not the image of the thing itself.’

Boroughs was fascinated by more pictorial, character based languages such as Ancient Mayan, Egyptian and modern day Chinese, as these have a stronger connection with the image. In the West we have totally lost this link. Many people relate the outbreak of the previously undiagnosed affliction called dyslexia with the widespread introduction of the image-based medium of television. ‘Ninety percent of language centres normally reside in the left hemisphere of right-handed people. In the right-handed dyslexic, the distribution is a more balanced 80/20 or 70/30.’ Although we cannot be sure dyslexia was not always with us, just undiagnosed; is it mere coincidence it exploded as television became widespread and people began to use the right side of the brain more. Unsurprisingly, in ideographic China, no cases of dyslexia have been diagnosed.

Borough’s believed that the word had achieved a state of stable symbiosis with the host, though this symbiotic relationship is now breaking down. Language is the means of control of organisations that benefit from our compliance such as corporations and governments. As Artaud and certain films attempt to connect us with a more direct symbolic language, Borough’s attempted the same with writing.

Interestingly I also wrote a lot about ‘silent’ film, which I perceived as having many shamanic qualities.

[Ceedub]

An idiot learns nothing.

Until they atleast learn that they are an idiot that is.


To realize that our knowledge is ignorance,
This is a noble insight.
To regard our ignorance as knowledge,
This is mental sickness.

Only when we are sick of our sickness
Shall we cease to be sick.
The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness;
This is the secret of health.

Verse 71, Wu
I really must stop quoting Lao Tzu. Don't worry, I'll get it out of my system soon, but the book just falls open to the needed verse every time.

[Jenci]

It didn't take me long after I started my one and only thread on Avalon to realize some things, understandings, nuances of thought, etc, cannot be conveyed through the use of words regardless of language. Language is severely limited and limiting in many instances.

There are a number of good wordsmiths on this forum and I envy their ability to write as clearly as they do. I have noted that even when two or more people have similar experiences, their descriptions can be vastly different in the wording of it.


This is very true, Sebastion and has been my experience too.

Jeanette

[Jenci]

We perceive life through filters.

Our filters are individual and are based on our conditioning, beliefs, ideas, concepts, moods, fears, desires etc..... so when someone speaks to us using words we perceive the words through our filters which tell us what the words mean.

These filters are the ego movement of grasping and resisting.


For example the teacher, when describing the emptiness which is our true nature, may use the word "space".

A student who has agoraphobia will immediately resist this idea as the word "space" will be filtered through their fear.

A student who has claustrophobia will immediately grasp this idea as the word "space" will be filtered through their experience of seeking comfort in it.

On the other hand the teacher may use the word "God" to describe our true nature and the student with a religious upbringing will cause them to either grasp or resist the concept of God they have grown up with.


So words have their limitations in teaching and will be understood differently.


Awakening is a process of dissolving all these ego grasping/resisting filters so that the perception of the truth is clarity.


Jeanette

[21CC]

It happens all the time
Meanings are compromised
For the sake of the rhyme

[Unified Serenity]

The first step to wisdom


I want to learn


The first step to Divinity


Love

[Tony]

The True Teacher.

In the quiet of a devotional mind,
the aspirant is blessed with clarity
to inspire.





¤=[Post Update]=¤


The wise knows nothing.
An idiot knows nothing.
A student isn't sure who is who.

[Mark]

Awakening is a process of dissolving all these ego grasping/resisting filters so that the perception of the truth is clarity.

This is a simple truth but we - and so many others throughout history - try to use so many words to describe it to help people understand what it is. I'm coming quickly to the conclusion that the Buddha was right to be reticent in teaching it. Only those who are 'almost there' can get it. The rest intellectualize at best, which only results in further obscurations.

The simplest language is best. The shortest, with the fewest and most basic of words. Which, again, is why I think teaching in parables is what all of the wisest have done, do and will continue to do.

EDIT:

In relation to the language issues currently on the table, by teaching in parables the right brain is engaged, the visual cortex and imagery, which brings imagination into the teaching context, which can lead to deeper understanding and gnosis.

[Dorjezigzag]

Never under
estimate
the power
of a 'empty'
cliche

[Tony]

Never under
estimate
the power
of a 'empty'
cliche


If is it self inspired is it a cliche?

[noxon medem]

..
-



Never under
estimate
the power
of a 'empty'
cliche


If is it self inspired is it a cliche?

Yes, by the same rule :

In common ground, then yes.
In personal space, then no.

And who said :

A cliche is a cliche because it works, simple enough, common ground

And ultimately , yes and, or , no
is a futile exercise in human folly .
- here , or there
( for you to enjoy, if you want ..).

Be well, you and be all you are .

:- )

Ps.
Do not call it dualism ..
- Think of free float

[Dorjezigzag]

Never under
estimate
the power
of a 'empty'
cliche


If is it self inspired is it a cliche?
Most phrases now considered clichéd were originally regarded as striking, but lost their force through overuse.

In this connection, David Mason and John Frederick Nims cite a particularly harsh judgement by Salvador Dalí: "The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot."

Ironically, in making this statement, Dalí was appropriating the words of French poet Gérard de Nerval: "The first man who compared woman to a rose was a poet, the second, an imbecile."

[Dorjezigzag]

Hi Rahkyt,

When reading this statement


The simplest language is best. The shortest, with the fewest and most basic of words. Which, again, is why I think teaching in parables is what all of the wisest have done, do and will continue to do.

I could not help thinking of this from Chinaski


well you've got me thinking '1984' here, and the way the man in the 'Ministry of Truth' had bragged to Winston that he'd cut the current dictionary of 'Newspeak' in half, eliminating many of the 'unnecessary' words.

the goal: to remove nuance, and therefore nuanced thought.

"tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance." -- Albert Maysles

and further made me think of this famous parable

War is Peace , Ignorance is Strength , Freedom is Slavery

I think we should give people the autonomy to express themselves how they feel best. Parable, Novel, poem, short story – whatever.

[Fred Steeves]

Hi Rahkyt,

When reading this statement


The simplest language is best. The shortest, with the fewest and most basic of words. Which, again, is why I think teaching in parables is what all of the wisest have done, do and will continue to do.

I could not help thinking of this from Chinaski


well you've got me thinking '1984' here, and the way the man in the 'Ministry of Truth' had bragged to Winston that he'd cut the current dictionary of 'Newspeak' in half, eliminating many of the 'unnecessary' words.

the goal: to remove nuance, and therefore nuanced thought.

"tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance." -- Albert Maysles

and further made me think of this famous parable

War is Peace , Ignorance is Strength , Freedom is Slavery

I think we should give people the autonomy to express themselves how they feel best. Parable, Novel, poem, short story – whatever.

Curiouser and Curiouser, what exactly ARE your intentions in this thread Dorje? Besides firmly inserting your foot in your mouth that is...

[Dorjezigzag]

Hi Rahkyt,

When reading this statement


The simplest language is best. The shortest, with the fewest and most basic of words. Which, again, is why I think teaching in parables is what all of the wisest have done, do and will continue to do.

I could not help thinking of this from Chinaski


well you've got me thinking '1984' here, and the way the man in the 'Ministry of Truth' had bragged to Winston that he'd cut the current dictionary of 'Newspeak' in half, eliminating many of the 'unnecessary' words.

the goal: to remove nuance, and therefore nuanced thought.

"tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance." -- Albert Maysles

and further made me think of this famous parable

War is Peace , Ignorance is Strength , Freedom is Slavery

I think we should give people the autonomy to express themselves how they feel best. Parable, Novel, poem, short story – whatever.

Curiouser and Curiouser, what exactly ARE your intentions in this thread Dorje? Besides firmly inserting your foot in your mouth that is...

My intentions hmmmmmm?

Foot in mouth isn't that a disease sheep get? Actually no its foot and mouth

Do you feel uncomfortable by someone who is able to go against the herd, that is not just trying to agree with everyone else but is free to question when it seems a little Orwelian?

Again stop defining what I am doing, leave me the autonomy to define myself.

Perhaps you agree with Rahkyt that the wisest people talk in parable with as few words as possible?

Wise people come in many personalities, expressing themselves in many ways. Some let their Art do the talking what ever that is, some use maths etc etc. Parable is one medium which has its strengths and weaknesses, there are many others


I ask an extremely relevant question and I question why anyone would wonder about the asssociated intention of my disputing that statement which in my opinion is Orwelian.

One should ask the question to ones self do you want to teach because you want to share knowledge or because you want to control?

[Fred Steeves]

Tell you what Dorje, I tend not to get too emotionally attached to my own threads, they're just "things" like all else don't you know. If you are drawn to hover around here spreading your finely tuned sophistry, have at it. I've learned to carefully pick my battles, and one with you ain't it. Now disengaging.

Cheers Mate,
Fred

[Dorjezigzag]

Fred,



Hovering? Kind of insulting
No you have never discused points I have raised but you have defined it as sophistry without anything to back up your accusation.
and for anyone who does not know the definition of sophistry here it is

1.
a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.
2.
a false argument; sophism.

Again kind of insulting, I have only ever presented my opinions as I saw it, on a subject I have an interest as I have extensive experience of being a teacher, if you were aware perhaps you would pay more respect

I have no battle with you but you obviously have one with me, you have continuously not engaged on the subject at hand but resorted to personal insults.

Glad you have disengaged because you were getting quite abusive. Be sure if I find disgreement with your posts I will engage with them although I will not fall to your level and use personal insult.

[Mark]

I think we should give people the autonomy to express themselves how they feel best. Parable, Novel, poem, short story – whatever.

You are free to draw whatever conclusions you like, as they are a reflection of your own mind and experience and that is all. How you interpret things is all yours, you own it. How you wish to perceive and be perceived is all yours as well. We tend to draw to us the energy that we put out there and my statements are directed to those who find value in them.

Not everybody does.

I work and write in every example you listed above so my meaning can be taken with fewer or more words, as a person so desires.

Language is notoriously imprecise when it comes to meaning and, as far as understanding goes, more words or less, it depends upon the listener what is taken from what is said.

And that is fine as it is apparently how things are meant to be.

[Dorjezigzag]

I think we should give people the autonomy to express themselves how they feel best. Parable, Novel, poem, short story – whatever.

You are free to draw whatever conclusions you like, as they are a reflection of your own mind and experience and that is all. How you interpret things is all yours, you own it. How you wish to perceive and be perceived is all yours as well. We tend to draw to us the energy that we put out there and my statements are directed to those who find value in them.


Not everybody does.

I work and write in every example you listed above so my meaning can be taken with fewer or more words, as a person so desires.

Language is notoriously imprecise when it comes to meaning and, as far as understanding goes, more words or less, it depends upon the listener what is taken from what is said.

And that is fine as it is apparently how things are meant to be.

Exactly, I am aware of your very wordy posts so I did not know why you were now equating limited language use with wisdom.
I'm glad that you have confirmed that this is not the case.
I can only comment on what was in the post.


The simplest language is best. The shortest, with the fewest and most basic of words. Which, again, is why I think teaching in parables is what all of the wisest have done, do and will continue to do.

It seemed that the thread was going to end up with everyone talking like the Tao sage on the mountain top:o

[Mark]

Exactly, I am aware of your very wordy posts so I did not know why you were now equating limited language use with wisdom.
I'm glad that you have confirmed that this is not the case.
I can only comment on what was in the post.


The simplest language is best. The shortest, with the fewest and most basic of words. Which, again, is why I think teaching in parables is what all of the wisest have done, do and will continue to do.

It seemed that the thread was going to end up with everyone talking like the Tao sage on the mountain top:o

No, I am not a Buddha or a Christ. I do write parables, but I also write scientific expositions, so I am not the one. Your point is correct and I trhink it's been made previously in this thread. All methods of teaching are viable, a student learns from wherever they are. So they are drawn to the teacher who best expresses what they are able to understand.


Again, language remains moreproblematic than it should be, leading to unnecessary and unfortunate ends. More wars have started from misunderstandings than anything else.

[mosquito]

... Unsurprisingly, in ideographic China, no cases of dyslexia have been diagnosed. ...


I can't confirm that with any kind of verifiable evidence, I can however agree with your thsesis 100%, based on my experience.

I'd thought this was probably the case long before coming to China, as the process of parsing a pictographic language is completely different to the way we parse our language. Once again, I have no "scientific" evidence for this, it's just common sense. Actually, the excerpt you provided from your dissertation is the evidence, it's spot on !

I've been working with young children here constantly, and have noticed on many occasions that quite a lot of children have difficulty with writing and reading in English, but have not encountered anyone who is dyslexic with Chinese characters ! Interestingly, I don't know of anyone who is dyslexic with pinyin (the Chinese system of romanization) which suggests that the problem is not just to do with letters as such. I'll elucidate .... (anyone who isn't interested in this, you can skip to the next paragraph !!;)

English and other languages are made up of discrete sounds, called phonemes, which we can combine in many different ways, although convention limits us to what we actually do. For example - I can invent a new word, thnarg, and you can read it and pronounce it with no difficulty. Another example might be gnothel, which again you can read and pronounce, but we're unlikely to ever see such a word in English, as it's cumbersome. The point is though, we can make these words. Chinese on the other hand is made up of phonetic blocks, comprising an initial and final phoneme. And these are set in stone, there is no variation, and there can be no new spoken sounds introduced to the language. So for example, we have bei, pei and fei, and we have bin and pin, but NO fin !. So I believe that when Chinese students read pinyin, they are still constructing phonetic blocks in their brains, rather than parsing left to right for phonemes.

I have an English friend here who is dyslexic, and I asked him about how he manages with Chinese, and as expected, he said that he has no problem with Chinese characters. Interesting.

So yes - it seems that sometimes the use of words is necessary in order to convey a message, and at other times not !! I hope some of you can start being friendly to one another again ;)

[another bob]

Life is the only teacher

Excerpts from the book ‘As It Is’ by Tony Parsons.

Question: There have been enlightened masters who have had great charisma and who've also been capable of magic, manifestation and so on. People have reported very powerful physical, emotional and mental experiences not only in the master’s presence, but even thousands of miles away. What’s that all about?

Tony Parsons: It’s about someone who has a lot of charisma and the gift of manifestation or magic. It’s about nothing more than anything else of any relevance inside the wheel of life. Someone recently told me that she looked into the eyes of a so-called master and vanished for a moment. But if it meant anything, why was she still asking questions? Nothing of any relevance is happening here with these phenomena that is any different or more liberating than selling hamburgers in the market place. The difficulty arises when people believe that these kind of events somehow vindicate some sort of personal enlightenment... they then also come to revere these people, and this creates a schism. They see these apparently magnificent beings and immediately come to believe that they can never attain such a level of importance. This is another way in which awakening is avoided. It is of course the infinite expression again wishing to have this experience, but so is my response to this question, and so is your sitting there and hearing it.

What we are talking about here today is the ordinary and the incredibly breathtaking magnificence of the ordinary. It is only ever and always simple, seemingly unremarkable and yet we pass it by and look for magic. Immediately, here, is the seeing of what we are. If there is a need in people to see magic there will always be magicians to fulfill that need, but none of this is relevant to awakening.

Question: So what do we look for in a teacher?

Someone who gives you absolutely nothing and leaves you feeling helpless. Then it is possible that you are left only with what is. If someone tells you that there’s something that you can do or there is a certain way that you can be in order for awakening to happen, they are simply feeding your own avoidance.

Question: What do you mean by that?

We all have a deep longing and a deep fear of the discovery of what we are, and the mind devises any way it can to avoid this discovery. The most effective way it avoids awakening is to seek it. When there begins to be an opening up to the revolutionary possibility that is being communicated here, then the mind sees this as a threat. I am finding with some people that for a time their strongest fears arise and they feel they want to run away or try to do something about being overwhelmed by those fears. This can be a pivotal period, and often escape routes are sought.
Some who hear this message will move away at some point to find a teacher who seems to be giving them something... a process or way of being such as transcending thought, vanquishing the ego, being honest, being moral, and so on. Others will also be very attracted to those who will offer to help them attain something they call enlightenment. Usually these teachers imply that in some way or other they are especially unique, and they will often act in such a way as to create a dependency in the follower. All of this personalized teaching is irrelevant to awakening, but it intrigues and satisfied the mind enormously, for a while.

Question: Is a guru needed at all?

Life is the only guru. Everything that has so far happened for you is your teaching and is absolutely appropriate for your awakening. At this moment it is sitting in this room and hearing these words and possibly allowing them to go deeply inside. It is the seed that is scattered and drops onto fertile or infertile ground. You are ready to hear when you are ready to hear. You don’t need anything except that which you have. isn't that wonderful? So don’t get worried about what you need or don’t need. All is provided. Let go and rest in that which is and you will surely meet the beloved and rediscover your original nature.

Q: How can you recognize a real or true guru?

You can’t. You can however come to see that there is no such thing as the truth, there is only what is, as it is right now. Whoever you meet along the way, that’s how it’s meant to be. If you sit with someone who appears to be a great master, but speaks from ignorance, that is the infinite expression. If you listen to someone who is awakened and speaks with clarity, that is also the infinite expression, but there’s no guarantee that you will hear. For some people they feel the need to be with somebody who seems to be very special and magical and important. I would say seek out a teacher who gives you nothing at all, no hope, no method, no personal offer to take you there, because of course there isn't anywhere to go. Look for someone who destroys all of your belief systems and who is always throwing you back onto what is, right here. Any teaching that advises you that you need to be serious or honest or purified or changed through some process, is simply not relevant. I have met people who have been with very powerful eastern teachers and who have had many so-called spiritual experiences. These people have considerable difficulty in accepting and living with the idea of the divine being in the ordinary. They still seek the excitement of these so-called spiritual experiences, and have very little time for the idea that a single footstep could be miraculous. As a consequence these people are often a bit lost in the ordinary world, and still look for the extraordinary wherever they can.

Q; But isn't enlightenment an extraordinary thing?

No, not at all, that’s the point. Enlightenment is our natural and ordinary way of being. In comparison with separation, awakening is extraordinary. Suddenly there is no longer a feeling of alienation. Nothing in particular changes in one’s life except the perception of everything.

Q: What is the seeker/teacher relationship?

Again there isn't one. In awakening there is no relationship because relationship implies two apart who have some kind of agreement to be with each other. If the so-called teacher is no longer invested in separation, and has moved beyond the illusion of self-hood, then who can relate? What is seen in that form by the seeker is a freedom, a spaciousness, a celebration which resonates. This is only a recognition of what the seeker already is. You are the light, simply rest in that and celebrate your natural birthright.

Q: How did your teacher help you?

I have never had a teacher, or seen anyone as a master. I knew when I was a kid that life must be the teacher. I prefer the word invitation. This was confirmed when walking across the park.

[Mark]

We all have a deep longing and a deep fear of the discovery of what we are, and the mind devises any way it can to avoid this discovery. The most effective way it avoids awakening is to seek it. When there begins to be an opening up to the revolutionary possibility that is being communicated here, then the mind sees this as a threat. I am finding with some people that for a time their strongest fears arise and they feel they want to run away or try to do something about being overwhelmed by those fears. This can be a pivotal period, and often escape routes are sought.

I like this guy's attitude. Breaking down all presupposed ideas. Great quote, thank you for sharing it ...Reading discourses like this makes clear why some spiritual teachers instruct by doing unexpected things and acting in ways that most people would not believe an Enllightened person would act.

[another bob]

We all have a deep longing and a deep fear of the discovery of what we are, and the mind devises any way it can to avoid this discovery. The most effective way it avoids awakening is to seek it. When there begins to be an opening up to the revolutionary possibility that is being communicated here, then the mind sees this as a threat. I am finding with some people that for a time their strongest fears arise and they feel they want to run away or try to do something about being overwhelmed by those fears. This can be a pivotal period, and often escape routes are sought.

I like this guy's attitude. Breaking down all presupposed ideas. Great quote, thank you for sharing it ...Reading discourses like this makes clear why some spiritual teachers instruct by doing unexpected things and acting in ways that most people would not believe an Enllightened person would act.



There is a great momentum of suffering and confusion that every spiritual seeker encounters. It is the momentum of ignorance which manifests as the experience of conflict and confusion and which causes suffering. In order to discover the perspective of Liberation, which alone transcends this entire movement of ignorance and suffering, one needs to let everything end.

"Letting everything end" means to stand in the moment completely naked of attachment to any and all ideas, concepts, hopes, preferences, and experiences. Simply put, it means to stop strategizing, controlling, manipulating, and running away from yourself--and to simply be. Finally you must let everything end and be still. In letting everything end, all seeking and striving stops.

All effort to be someone or to find some extraordinary state of being ceases. This ceasing is essential. It is true spiritual maturity. By ceasing to follow the mind's tendency to always want 'more', 'different', or 'better', one encounters the opportunity to be still. In being still, a perspective is revealed which is free from all ignorance and bondage to suffering.

~Adyashanti


:yo:

[Fred Steeves]

I think Bob, that that "letting go", is more likely once every other conceivable path has been tried, and failed.

Cheers Mate,
Fred

[Camilo]

Hi Fred, I second your statement. Henry Ford once said, he wouldn't have been able to accomplish what he did, has he gone to college, because there "they would have thought him to think within a box" and limit his potential.

[another bob]

I think Bob, that that "letting go", is more likely once every other conceivable path has been tried, and failed.

Cheers Mate,
Fred

Hiya Fred!

Synchronistically, just posted this over at "Here & Now", in response to a great and wise post from Jenci:

Usually all the mind's strategic options must be exhausted before we finally get to this point and let the struggle end.

The Buddha told his followers there are four kinds of horses. The first sees merely the form of the whip and runs. The second reacts when the whip taps its hair. The third is aroused when the whip contacts its flesh. The fourth is animated when the whip touches its bone.

“In his book Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind, Zen Master Shunryu Suzuki approaches the question of fast and slow learners in term of horses.

"It is said that there are four kinds of horses: excellent ones, good ones, poor ones, and bad ones. The best horse will run slow and fast, right and left, at the driver's will, before it sees the shadow of the whip; the second best will run as well as the first one, just before the whip reaches its skin; the third one will run when it feels pain on its body; the fourth will run after the pain penetrates the marrow of its bones. You can imagine how difficult it is for the fourth one to learn to run. When we hear this story, almost all of us want to be the best horse..."

But this is a mistake, Suzuki says. When you learn too easily, you’re tempted not to work hard, not to penetrate to the marrow of the practice…. The best horse, according to Suzuki, may be the worst horse. And the worst horse can be the best, for if it perseveres, it will have learned whatever it is practicing all the way to the marrow of its bones.

[Jenci]

I like this guy's attitude. Breaking down all presupposed ideas. Great quote, thank you for sharing it ...Reading discourses like this makes clear why some spiritual teachers instruct by doing unexpected things and acting in ways that most people would not believe an Enllightened person would act.


I love this piece written about the teacher Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj by someone who knew him.





Maharaj was clearly mischievous and loved to be “challenged” in discussion. When confronted by a questioner, the subsequent “battle royal” that ensued seemed to make his day. The nonchalance with which Maharaj approached his cancer clearly reflected the depth of his enlightenment and complete freedom of concern about death. Maharaj’s sense of being an individual entity had “died” many years before; I believe that as part of a great soul’s realization, such a one would have experienced a kind of physical death, almost like a “dress rehearsal” for the real event.

Maharaj, was not inclined to live up to any prevailing definitions of sainthood, at least so far as diet and personal habits were concerned. Consistent with the caste into which he was born, he included meat as part of his diet. However, his habit of smoking dismayed some of those who visited him and even led a few to dismiss him outright. Despite several indignant protests over his incessant smoking of biddies (hand-made Indian cigarettes), Maharaj, when asked why an enlightened man continued to smoke, responded: “Even after enlightenment the body is allowed to continue a few of its habits and to me it is not a big deal. Wake up, look through apparent appearances, examine your own righteousness and judgment, and separate the wheat from the chaff. If you can’t see beyond surface appearance and get caught up in your superficial judgments, then you have no business being here with me.”

Just prior to my visiting Maharaj and after he was diagnosed with cancer, he had apparently given in to the entreaties of his close devotees to stop smoking. But to my surprise, I found him sneaking a daily dose of nicotine through the surreptitious use of snuff; he was truly a noncompliant rascal! When he knew that I had uncovered his trickery, he gave me a wonderful sly grin with a glint in his eye—the kind you usually see in the eyes of children for whom the thirst for play had not been squelched. I still remember this moment as if it were yesterday.

http://www.innerdirections.org/journal/conscious-living/nisargadatta-maharaj-and-health-and-healing/

[Dorjezigzag]

"Letting everything end" means to stand in the moment completely naked of attachment to any and all ideas, concepts, hopes, preferences, and experiences. Simply put, it means to stop strategizing, controlling, manipulating, and running away from yourself--and to simply be

Many talk the talk,
few walk the walk

[Tony]

................................... ............... .... ...!

[Unified Serenity]

blink...............................

blink

[Mark]

I love this piece written about the teacher Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj by someone who knew him.





Maharaj was clearly mischievous and loved to be “challenged” in discussion. When confronted by a questioner, the subsequent “battle royal” that ensued seemed to make his day. The nonchalance with which Maharaj approached his cancer clearly reflected the depth of his enlightenment and complete freedom of concern about death. Maharaj’s sense of being an individual entity had “died” many years before; I believe that as part of a great soul’s realization, such a one would have experienced a kind of physical death, almost like a “dress rehearsal” for the real event.

Maharaj, was not inclined to live up to any prevailing definitions of sainthood, at least so far as diet and personal habits were concerned. Consistent with the caste into which he was born, he included meat as part of his diet. However, his habit of smoking dismayed some of those who visited him and even led a few to dismiss him outright. Despite several indignant protests over his incessant smoking of biddies (hand-made Indian cigarettes), Maharaj, when asked why an enlightened man continued to smoke, responded: “Even after enlightenment the body is allowed to continue a few of its habits and to me it is not a big deal. Wake up, look through apparent appearances, examine your own righteousness and judgment, and separate the wheat from the chaff. If you can’t see beyond surface appearance and get caught up in your superficial judgments, then you have no business being here with me.”

Just prior to my visiting Maharaj and after he was diagnosed with cancer, he had apparently given in to the entreaties of his close devotees to stop smoking. But to my surprise, I found him sneaking a daily dose of nicotine through the surreptitious use of snuff; he was truly a noncompliant rascal! When he knew that I had uncovered his trickery, he gave me a wonderful sly grin with a glint in his eye—the kind you usually see in the eyes of children for whom the thirst for play had not been squelched. I still remember this moment as if it were yesterday.



Gurdjieff used to drink like a fish and get his disciples drunk, it is said, to know their unconscious behavior. It is also said that Osho loved sex, took drugs (nitrous oxide) and the drama of his last years seems as worldly as it gets. Enlightenment seems not to be any indicator of ultimate behavior, especially when it comes to conforming to any set standard of "good" or "evil".

Or maybe, the teachers are just really creative in how they get their students to learn. :)

[Fred Steeves]

Gurdjieff used to drink like a fish and get his disciples drunk, it is said, to know their unconscious behavior. It is also said that Osho loved sex, took drugs (nitrous oxide) and the drama of his last years seems as worldly as it gets. Enlightenment seems not to be any indicator of ultimate behavior, especially when it comes to conforming to any set standard of "good" or "evil".

Or maybe, the teachers are just really creative in how they get their students to learn. :)

Well thank you Rahkyt for the green light to keep on sucking down the frosty cold Budweisers! Hooray! http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/drink.gif

[another bob]

Or maybe, the teachers are just really creative in how they get their students to learn. :)

1973

It was Sasaki Roshi's birthday, and we had all gathered around him in the dining hall to celebrate. He sat at the head of the table, and asked for a cigarette. I had never seen him smoke before, so I wondered if this was some sort of celebratory thing. Somebody gave him a Marlboro Lite, which he lit and promptly put out with a disgusted face. Recognizing the problem, I reached into my robe and pulled out a pack of Camel non-filters and offered him one.

He lit it, smiled, and said, "I understand you!"

"What do you understand, Roshi?" I asked.

"I am going to give you a diamond gift on my birthday!" he replied.

He closed his eyes for a moment and became perfectly still. After a few moments he opened them, and spoke in clear English, emphasizing each word:

"Like

a dream,

a bubble

on a stream,

a shadow,

a drop

of dew . . .

a flash

of lightning

in a dark

sky,

see all

as

thus."


Then he just smiled and smiled.

We all smiled along.

It was a Happy Birthday!

[another bob]

Well thank you Rahkyt for the green light to keep on sucking down the frosty cold Budweisers! Hooray! http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/drink.gif

Heya Fred!

Another quick story, related somewhat:

Once in the Sanzen room, where students went before the Master to express their understanding, Roshi told me that I had a good understanding of the Absolute, but was too attached to it. He said I was on my way to sainthood, but the purpose of Zen was not to become a saint. He told me I needed to plunge fully into the objective world, in order to find the meeting place, or matrix, of "plus and minus", and so unify them.
Then he said that I should "read dirty books". "I like dirty books!", he smiled. I supposed that he meant porn, which held little interest for me. I pondered over his statement when I left the room, and when I go back to my cabin later that day, I found a new student had moved in. On his bed was spread out a few porn magazines, and I had to crack up at the way the universe plays!

[Carmen]

Life is the only teacher

Excerpts from the book ‘As It Is’ by Tony Parsons.

Question: There have been enlightened masters who have had great charisma and who've also been capable of magic, manifestation and so on. People have reported very powerful physical, emotional and mental experiences not only in the master’s presence, but even thousands of miles away. What’s that all about?

Tony Parsons: It’s about someone who has a lot of charisma and the gift of manifestation or magic. It’s about nothing more than anything else of any relevance inside the wheel of life. Someone recently told me that she looked into the eyes of a so-called master and vanished for a moment. But if it meant anything, why was she still asking questions? Nothing of any relevance is happening here with these phenomena that is any different or more liberating than selling hamburgers in the market place. The difficulty arises when people believe that these kind of events somehow vindicate some sort of personal enlightenment... they then also come to revere these people, and this creates a schism. They see these apparently magnificent beings and immediately come to believe that they can never attain such a level of importance. This is another way in which awakening is avoided. It is of course the infinite expression again wishing to have this experience, but so is my response to this question, and so is your sitting there and hearing it.

What we are talking about here today is the ordinary and the incredibly breathtaking magnificence of the ordinary. It is only ever and always simple, seemingly unremarkable and yet we pass it by and look for magic. Immediately, here, is the seeing of what we are. If there is a need in people to see magic there will always be magicians to fulfill that need, but none of this is relevant to awakening.

Question: So what do we look for in a teacher?

Someone who gives you absolutely nothing and leaves you feeling helpless. Then it is possible that you are left only with what is. If someone tells you that there’s something that you can do or there is a certain way that you can be in order for awakening to happen, they are simply feeding your own avoidance.

Question: What do you mean by that?

We all have a deep longing and a deep fear of the discovery of what we are, and the mind devises any way it can to avoid this discovery. The most effective way it avoids awakening is to seek it. When there begins to be an opening up to the revolutionary possibility that is being communicated here, then the mind sees this as a threat. I am finding with some people that for a time their strongest fears arise and they feel they want to run away or try to do something about being overwhelmed by those fears. This can be a pivotal period, and often escape routes are sought.
Some who hear this message will move away at some point to find a teacher who seems to be giving them something... a process or way of being such as transcending thought, vanquishing the ego, being honest, being moral, and so on. Others will also be very attracted to those who will offer to help them attain something they call enlightenment. Usually these teachers imply that in some way or other they are especially unique, and they will often act in such a way as to create a dependency in the follower. All of this personalized teaching is irrelevant to awakening, but it intrigues and satisfied the mind enormously, for a while.

Question: Is a guru needed at all?

Life is the only guru. Everything that has so far happened for you is your teaching and is absolutely appropriate for your awakening. At this moment it is sitting in this room and hearing these words and possibly allowing them to go deeply inside. It is the seed that is scattered and drops onto fertile or infertile ground. You are ready to hear when you are ready to hear. You don’t need anything except that which you have. isn't that wonderful? So don’t get worried about what you need or don’t need. All is provided. Let go and rest in that which is and you will surely meet the beloved and rediscover your original nature.

Q: How can you recognize a real or true guru?

You can’t. You can however come to see that there is no such thing as the truth, there is only what is, as it is right now. Whoever you meet along the way, that’s how it’s meant to be. If you sit with someone who appears to be a great master, but speaks from ignorance, that is the infinite expression. If you listen to someone who is awakened and speaks with clarity, that is also the infinite expression, but there’s no guarantee that you will hear. For some people they feel the need to be with somebody who seems to be very special and magical and important. I would say seek out a teacher who gives you nothing at all, no hope, no method, no personal offer to take you there, because of course there isn't anywhere to go. Look for someone who destroys all of your belief systems and who is always throwing you back onto what is, right here. Any teaching that advises you that you need to be serious or honest or purified or changed through some process, is simply not relevant. I have met people who have been with very powerful eastern teachers and who have had many so-called spiritual experiences. These people have considerable difficulty in accepting and living with the idea of the divine being in the ordinary. They still seek the excitement of these so-called spiritual experiences, and have very little time for the idea that a single footstep could be miraculous. As a consequence these people are often a bit lost in the ordinary world, and still look for the extraordinary wherever they can.

Q; But isn't enlightenment an extraordinary thing?

No, not at all, that’s the point. Enlightenment is our natural and ordinary way of being. In comparison with separation, awakening is extraordinary. Suddenly there is no longer a feeling of alienation. Nothing in particular changes in one’s life except the perception of everything.

Q: What is the seeker/teacher relationship?

Again there isn't one. In awakening there is no relationship because relationship implies two apart who have some kind of agreement to be with each other. If the so-called teacher is no longer invested in separation, and has moved beyond the illusion of self-hood, then who can relate? What is seen in that form by the seeker is a freedom, a spaciousness, a celebration which resonates. This is only a recognition of what the seeker already is. You are the light, simply rest in that and celebrate your natural birthright.

Q: How did your teacher help you?

I have never had a teacher, or seen anyone as a master. I knew when I was a kid that life must be the teacher. I prefer the word invitation. This was confirmed when walking across the park.


That's a very interesting passage Bob. I'll never forget back at the end of the eighties travelling to America to go to a Ramtha event for the first time. I went, having pushed out the walls of my grid, my belief system, to include new agey stuff, it was all very exciting. I thought I would push the walls out more when I learned more stuff from Ramtha! Well, my god, all my belief systems, my walls, we're totally shattered. I felt like a lone survivor in the little life raft on an empty sea. Nothing that I knew survived the experience. The whole lot was cleaned out!! I went home to spend many years dealing with, understanding, all my karmic, connections, my habitual thinking. Talk about going through the fire and I was totally alone in this endeavour. No one understood what the hell I was on about or what I was going through. It was one hell of an initiation. I didn't actually get back to the Ramtha school again for over ten years, but I had enough homework to be getting on with!! I didn't go back until I noticed Ramtha's predictions coming true and I had dealt with my crap! It was time for more learning!!

[another bob]

It was time for more learning!!

Thanks so much, Carmen! I feel that sharing our personal experiences with teachers really helps to round out this consideration and ground it in our actual lives.

:yo:

[M6*]

Very well said, Limor! M6*

[Jenci]

Gurdjieff used to drink like a fish and get his disciples drunk, it is said, to know their unconscious behavior. It is also said that Osho loved sex, took drugs (nitrous oxide) and the drama of his last years seems as worldly as it gets. Enlightenment seems not to be any indicator of ultimate behavior, especially when it comes to conforming to any set standard of "good" or "evil".

Or maybe, the teachers are just really creative in how they get their students to learn. :)


Or maybe the teachers knew something that the students didn't.

The student thinks that the human life is about them becoming enlightened.

If that is the case, it suggests that before this life they are unenlightened.

Now maybe the teacher has realised that this life is not about enlightenment.

And that it's about experiencing life as a human - life, feel, hear, see, smell, taste, touch, think, food, drink, drugs, sex, music, mountains, rivers, teachers, students.........


Why waste the opportunity of life trying to be something that we already are. We already free.
It's not freedom from, it's freedom to...




Jeanette

[Fred Steeves]

Gurdjieff used to drink like a fish and get his disciples drunk, it is said, to know their unconscious behavior. It is also said that Osho loved sex, took drugs (nitrous oxide) and the drama of his last years seems as worldly as it gets. Enlightenment seems not to be any indicator of ultimate behavior, especially when it comes to conforming to any set standard of "good" or "evil".

Or maybe, the teachers are just really creative in how they get their students to learn. :)


Or maybe the teachers knew something that the students didn't.

The student thinks that the human life is about them becoming enlightened.

If that is the case, it suggests that before this life they are unenlightened.

Now maybe the teacher has realised that this life is not about enlightenment.

And that it's about experiencing life as a human - life, feel, hear, see, smell, taste, touch, think, food, drink, drugs, sex, music, mountains, rivers, teachers, students.........


Why waste the opportunity of life trying to be something that we already are. We already free.
It's not freedom from, it's freedom to...


Yes, I have a feeling that once this overall experience has seen it's rightful completion, we will look back on it as a treasured experience, but also one that we would not care to repeat. Funny dat.

[Mark]

Or maybe the teachers knew something that the students didn't.

The student thinks that the human life is about them becoming enlightened.

If that is the case, it suggests that before this life they are unenlightened.

Now maybe the teacher has realised that this life is not about enlightenment.

And that it's about experiencing life as a human - life, feel, hear, see, smell, taste, touch, think, food, drink, drugs, sex, music, mountains, rivers, teachers, students.........


Why waste the opportunity of life trying to be something that we already are. We already free.
It's not freedom from, it's freedom to...

LOL We take this discussion wherever we go.

There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity. ~ Shunryu Suzuki

I read this quote when someone else here on the forum posted it some time ago and it has remained with me ever since. It comes up in thought sometimes as I'm driving, or other times, right before I fall asleep. I think it is a concise statement of what you just wrote, Jenci ...

... there is the perception that Bob addressed in his most recent blog entry (http://feelingtoinfinity.wordpress.com/2012/07/04/mind-character-will/) that talks about some of the misperceptions surrounding the process and what the state actually represents, as well as the potential failings for those who assume the mantle of teacher and take on the illusion of mastery.

Everything is everything.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3_dOWYHS7I

[Ivanhoe]

I just wanted to thank you all for this wonderful conversation.
Silence is golden. :peep:
I'd add my two cents, but I've only got a penny. LOL

[Jenci]

Yes, I have a feeling that once this overall experience has seen it's rightful completion, we will look back on it as a treasured experience, but also one that we would not care to repeat. Funny dat.


...or maybe we won't, Fred.

Maybe the idea that we would not care to repeat this experience is only something that happens in the human experience.

Even in a profound realisation of what we truly are, beyond all the illusion, the ego grasping of still seeking a better experience can be found hiding. And I keep finding it :)

Jeanette

[another bob]

Even in a profound realisation of what we truly are, beyond all the illusion, the ego grasping of still seeking a better experience can be found hiding. And I keep finding it :)

Jeanette


Q: Was your realization sudden or gradual?

Nisargadatta Maharaj: Neither. One is what one is, timelessly. It is the mind that realizes when it gets cleared of desires and fears.

Q: Even the desire for realization?

M: The desire to put an end to all desires is a most peculiar desire, just like the fear of being afraid is a most peculiar fear. One stops you from grabbing and the other from running. You may use the same words, but the states are not the same. The one who seeks realization is not addicted to desires; he is a seeker who goes against desire, not with it.
A general longing for liberation is only the beginning; to find the proper means and use them is the next step. The seeker has only one goal in view; to find their own true being. Of all desires it is the most ambitious, for nothing and nobody can satisfy it; the seeker and the sought are one, and the search alone matters.

Q: The search will come to an end. The seeker will remain.

M: No, the seeker will dissolve, the search will remain. The search is the ultimate and timeless reality.

Q: Search means lacking, wanting, incompleteness and imperfection.

M: No, it means refusal and rejection of the incomplete and the imperfect. The search for reality is itself the movement of reality. In a way, all search is for the real bliss, or the bliss of the real. By search we mean the search for oneself as the root of being conscious, as the light beyond the mind. This search will never end, as long as there remains a restless craving for anything else, and only then can real progress take place.
One has to understand that the search for reality, or God, or Guru, and the search for the self, are the same. When one is found, all are found. When ‘I am’ and ‘God is’ become in your mind indistinguishable, then something will happen and you will know without a trace of doubt that God is, because you are -- you are, because God is. The two are one.

[Ceedub]

Yes, I have a feeling that once this overall experience has seen it's rightful completion, we will look back on it as a treasured experience, but also one that we would not care to repeat. Funny dat.


...or maybe we won't, Fred.

Maybe the idea that we would not care to repeat this experience is only something that happens in the human experience.

Even in a profound realisation of what we truly are, beyond all the illusion, the ego grasping of still seeking a better experience can be found hiding. And I keep finding it :)

Jeanette

I've been stuck on this paradox since I was a young man. In my formative years I experienced an above average amount of loss and turmoil (by American standards anyway). In taking stock of my life it is obvious that these early difficulties were insturmental in shaping my 'character' and building spiritual strength or more accurately, recognizing my own inate strength of character.

If were raising children I feel I would be perplexed because I would never subject my children to suffering obviously, but I think we can all see easily enough that people who do not experience a certain degree of suffering don't seem to develop the same kind of inner strength as those who overcome suffering and adversity. Or to paraphrase Sun Tsu, "in order for a general to be a great general he must first suffer defeat in battle".

Likewise children of afluent families seem to be at risk of growing up underdeveloped for similar reasons. But as a parent I would want to be afluent so that my children could have the best education and opportunities for experience only afforded the well to do. Although it could be said that this is just another obstacle to overcome and grow through.

I suppose this is a question without an answer and thus no question at all. After a few decades of struggle and strife I can't say that my conscious mind is eager to repeat the experience but something tells me when the ride is over I'll be sprinting back to get to the head of the queue. I might even choose to raise the degree of difficulty another notch... ughh, I could just see myself doing that too, dang.


CW

[Fred Steeves]

"A hero has faced it all: He need not be undefeated, but he must be undaunted".

Andrew Bernstein


True dat...:nod:

[Dorjezigzag]

It is so beautiful that so many of you have shared the fine words of so many gurus, here are some words from a very special guru, the love guru!

MJRDVwL1qwM

[21CC]

:oWhen the student is ready the teacher appears!