A Different Happening - now and then?

[another bob]

[Mod-edit: This thread began its life as a series of posts on the thread Here and Now...What's Happening? (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30405-Here-and-Now...What-s-Happening&p=510042&viewfull=1#post510042), but was sufficiently unsuitable in tone for that thread that I made it into its own separate thread. -- Paul.]

===



I was really just wondering who else may have read this thread from start to finish

I'm in it for the tunes!

Actually, I started reading it a few months ago, and liked what I found, so decided to chip in. It's really a quite remarkable group assembled here! I've participated in various alt forums for a decade and a half now. What one typically finds are similar patterns emerging, regardless of topic. The latest issue with Songs and the pubsters is like a deja vu in that respect -- a charismatic personality with a few word hooks comes along, a clique is formed, a club house, and then the old us vs them theme that Fred pointed out. After you've seen this a few times, it gets rather wearying, which is why this Village is such a relief -- to find caring people without chips on their shoulders who can intelligently explore a variety of pertinent topics without rancor, and relate their everyday experience in a compassionate and vulnerable manner, with lots of support and humor. Pretty rare, but much appreciated!

Blessings to all!

[songsfortheotherkind]

It neither surprises me that you elect to have a go at me in a thread I'm not usually in, nor that so many thank you for the post.

If you want to dig at me, do it face to face, bob. Everything is hiding behind skirts. Do I go around other threads discussing you? Do I follow you into *your own* threads to pour my own particular perspective over you despite your having asked me not to? No.Yet here you are, having a go at me yet again somewhere else, because your tactics were called out in the Pub- and not just by me. Your suggestion that those who also called you out are nothing but a clique is also insulting, but that too is ok in this environment.

*shrugs* I must really be a prickle in your underpants to inspire the constant banging on. Oddly enough, you can't answer me intelligently and in autonomy language, so you choose to go elsewhere and be squidgy about it. That's unsurprising.




I was really just wondering who else may have read this thread from start to finish

I'm in it for the tunes!

Actually, I started reading it a few months ago, and liked what I found, so decided to chip in. It's really a quite remarkable group assembled here! I've participated in various alt forums for a decade and a half now. What one typically finds are similar patterns emerging, regardless of topic. The latest issue with Songs and the pubsters is like a deja vu in that respect -- a charismatic personality with a few word hooks comes along, a clique is formed, a club house, and then the old us vs them theme that Fred pointed out. After you've seen this a few times, it gets rather wearying, which is why this Village is such a relief -- to find caring people without chips on their shoulders who can intelligently explore a variety of pertinent topics without rancor, and relate their everyday experience in a compassionate and vulnerable manner, with lots of support and humor. Pretty rare, but much appreciated!

Blessings to all!

[ulli]

It neither surprises me that you elect to have a go at me in a thread I'm not usually in, nor that so many thank you for the post.

If you want to dig at me, do it face to face, bob. Everything is hiding behind skirts. Do I go around other threads discussing you? Do I follow you into *your own* threads to pour my own particular perspective over you despite your having asked me not to? No.Yet here you are, having a go at me yet again somewhere else, because your tactics were called out in the Pub- and not just by me. Your suggestion that those who also called you out are nothing but a clique is also insulting, but that too is ok in this environment.

*shrugs* I must really be a prickle in your underpants to inspire the constant banging on. Oddly enough, you can't answer me intelligently and in autonomy language, so you choose to go elsewhere and be squidgy about it. That's unsurprising.




I was really just wondering who else may have read this thread from start to finish

I'm in it for the tunes!

Actually, I started reading it a few months ago, and liked what I found, so decided to chip in. It's really a quite remarkable group assembled here! I've participated in various alt forums for a decade and a half now. What one typically finds are similar patterns emerging, regardless of topic. The latest issue with Songs and the pubsters is like a deja vu in that respect -- a charismatic personality with a few word hooks comes along, a clique is formed, a club house, and then the old us vs them theme that Fred pointed out. After you've seen this a few times, it gets rather wearying, which is why this Village is such a relief -- to find caring people without chips on their shoulders who can intelligently explore a variety of pertinent topics without rancor, and relate their everyday experience in a compassionate and vulnerable manner, with lots of support and humor. Pretty rare, but much appreciated!

Blessings to all!

You could have sent him a PM. How about copy/pasting your post now and taking it out of here?
If the pub was a predator-free environment please be informed that the same rules apply to this thread.

[Anchor]

Oh my, what do we have here! A thread equivalent of a collective ego manifesting? Thread wars?

Why should anyone be able to make snarky comments about others, with support given to them for so doing and then expect that to go uncontested as if nothing had happened?

This is probably throwing fuel on a fire, the moment this flared up it affected more than bob and songs; for one thing it affected me - there I said it.

That's me on my self authority speaking - and not just because I like songs and her art and craft, but because I like all of you and yours too.

This bubbled up into a collective presence HERE and now needs to be dealt with AND I suspect that you all have a pretty good idea what needs to be done about it.

So spank me for speaking up if you have too - I don't care. I don't want to make this any worse, just get it over and done with.

I've forgotten this happened already - apologies not required.

Acceptance?

--

[post move update: please note this post was written before Paul moved it. Its meaning is changed by being in this thread but I am not altering it. I am glad the posts were moved out of the Here and Now thread]

[RunningDeer]

Thank you, Anchor. I was tied up on another thread, but I knew I couldn't just leave things undone. What I want to say is that I care for both Songs and Bob. In their own ways they have been there for me in times that were important. I wasn't aware there was a second squabble, until too late. I knew of the one in the end of May.


So now, my plan is no plan. Only a wish for a speedy recovery. http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/wet-kiss-smiley.gif?1292867699




Oh my, what do we have here! A thread equivalent of a collective ego manifesting? Thread wars?

Why should anyone be able to make snarky comments about others, with support given to them for so doing and then expect that to go uncontested as if nothing had happened?

This is probably throwing fuel on a fire, the moment this flared up it affected more than bob and songs; for one thing it affected me - there I said it.

That's me on my self authority speaking - and not just because I like songs and her art and craft, but because I like all of you and yours too.

This bubbled up into a collective presence HERE and now needs to be dealt with AND I suspect that you all have a pretty good idea what needs to be done about it.

So spank me for speaking up if you have too - I don't care. I don't want to make this any worse, just get it over and done with.

I've forgotten this happened already - apologies not required.

Acceptance?

[Carmody]

Anchor:

The problem comes when very subtle aspects of circularity are paraded as clarity. And others gather around that, and reflect it back. This leads to an associated subtle undercurrent of us vs them, which is the point that is so sorely missed, but ultra critical, in the final analysis. All of that, is a pattern of signposts along the way, along the road to the more further reaches in this thing we call incarnation -and all it's twists and turns. Bob recognizes that, and so do I. So I hung an 'alternative take' shingle out, in that other thread.

In return I received a rather large and involved response, somewhat in the form that one might expect to receive from a lawyer who was making a rather meaningless response that went nowhere, but in a circle.

I said, well, there's apparently no breaching that gap, at this time, so I let it go. I tried to contribute in the spirit of the thread, and then was slapped again, with some allusion to this one using logic, as some sort of wrong aspect of clearing the self.

That stunk so badly as responses to my input could go.... that I called it what I considered it was. Prattle. And parade. And then, I left it alone.

Now, another circular logic thread has emerged, I see the same pattern emerging.

I'm staying away from that one as well.

All I know is that we need all the awareness out there that we can get.

And as in the DW bashing thread, I'm not sure that anyone who is in any part of this stage or grand game, is ultimately a negative.

Another point is that attempts at being the steering committee do indeed generate karma. It's a fine line between helping.... or generating karma - when ensconced in the flesh.

Another is that life, existence, in all dimensions is, well... expressed in differential. Whether it be value between dimensionally related quanta or quanta within a single dimension itself. Time expressed as quantum differential, is not unique; a secondary layer is formed between dimensions. This differential is passage for data, information, or....organized intelligence. (sorry, a sidetrack. I thought I'd write it while it came to form in mind)

Back to the point, which is ultimately, I don't see anyone in a bad light, or way. And I don't like these kinds of posts, so I try never be in position to make them.

[Eram]

Thank you, Anchor. I was tied up on another thread, but I knew I couldn't just leave things undone. What I want to say is that I care for both Songs and Bob. In their own ways they have been there for me in times that were important. I wasn't aware there was a second squabble, until too late. I knew of the one in the end of May.


So now, my plan is no plan. Only a wish for a speedy recovery. http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/wet-kiss-smiley.gif?1292867699




Oh my, what do we have here! A thread equivalent of a collective ego manifesting? Thread wars?

Why should anyone be able to make snarky comments about others, with support given to them for so doing and then expect that to go uncontested as if nothing had happened?

This is probably throwing fuel on a fire, the moment this flared up it affected more than bob and songs; for one thing it affected me - there I said it.

That's me on my self authority speaking - and not just because I like songs and her art and craft, but because I like all of you and yours too.

This bubbled up into a collective presence HERE and now needs to be dealt with AND I suspect that you all have a pretty good idea what needs to be done about it.

So spank me for speaking up if you have too - I don't care. I don't want to make this any worse, just get it over and done with.

I've forgotten this happened already - apologies not required.

Acceptance?

I'm afraid this is not about a squabble between two persons, as it is made out to be now.
This is about something else.

Carmody explained this to some extend, but I feel that there is more to be said about this.

It has to do with energy flow and the remaining of autonomy of people, and I'm not talking about the autonomy-heteronomy discussion.
I'm talking about the simple autonomy of a person.

In the interaction on the threads where the discussion is about, I feel that the autonomy of certain people is at stake to some extend and that energy flows are not back and forth.

I have a close family member who is a narcissist, and I know where I am speaking about in this case. In many cases I don't, but in this case I do.

Sorry that I add to this discussion in this thread and bring dis harmonic energy here, but I don't know a way of adding something useful to it in the other thread yet.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Anchor:

The problem comes when very subtle aspects of circularity are paraded as clarity. And others gather around that, and reflect it back. This leads to an associated subtle undercurrent of us vs them, which is the point that is so sorely missed, but ultra critical, in the final analysis. All of that, is a pattern of signposts along the way, along the road to the more further reaches in this thing we call incarnation -and all it's twists and turns. Bob recognizes that, and so do I. So I hung an 'alternative take' shingle out, in that other thread.

In return I received a rather large and involved response, somewhat in the form that one might expect to receive from a lawyer who was making a rather meaningless response that went nowhere, but in a circle.

Want to bring this to me personally? Because the Pub thread is there for all to see, as to what was actually said at the time. You are making an entirely subjective response and stating it as a fact, which it's not- it's simply subjective, which is different and perfectly fine. I get that my writing style is not everyone's cup of tea- I've also learned that there are those on this forum who, while making out they can engage in complex discussions, actually can't and thus resort to personal attack and lofty but meaningless waffling disguised as higher wisdom when they can't understand entirely what I'm saying and assume they know my intention and meaning rather than ask.

If you have an issue with my thought processes and way of communication, that's perfectly fine, I get that, I have no illusions regarding everyone being everyone else's cup of tea. When this moves into judgement and innuendo regarding me as a Being, or casting aspersions on my motives and the sincerity with which I bring things to the forum, that's a different matter and has devolved into a personality issue. There's no evolution in that.


I said, well, there's apparently no breaching that gap, at this time, so I let it go. I tried to contribute in the spirit of the thread, and then was slapped again, with some allusion to this one using logic, as some sort of wrong aspect of clearing the self.

That is a straight up judgement and suggestion of abuse being disguised as something else. Do you wish to back that up? Because that is a serious suggestion in my world, given my own experience and history. As I said, the dialogue is there in the thread, although I personally haven't been keeping an eye on if and how much editing has been going on behind the scenes, because I don't care about that. If you wish to suggest that you were treated unfairly, bring it to the Pub or into conversation: nothing was cleared at the time, you just did what you did and left. Apparently though, it's not cleared, because here you are at the first clear opportunity and airing your grievances in a thread I don't normally come into.

This is enlightened behaviour? As is the tolerance of such? Interesting.


That stunk so badly as responses to my input could go.... that I called it what I considered it was. Prattle. And parade. And then, I left it alone.

That would have been interesting, had it happened that way. As it was, a few people called you on certain dodgy behaviour, asked if you wanted to do things differently and you didn't like it, so you left, which is entirely your prerogative and nobody thought anything of it: horses for courses. Prattle and parade indeed.


I'm staying away from that one as well.

Excellent. Natural selection at work in every direction.

One of the way abusive individuals stopped showing up in my life was that I learned to call the abuse exactly what it was- abuse. Not what the *abusers* were calling it. This is the information that was put into the Pub and that culminated in those leaving who did. For those interested, here http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/AbuseInFamilies/VerbalAbuse1.htm is an interesting article that links to the elements of verbal and emotional abuse that came up in that discussion, elements of which were considered relevant. The article also goes into some interesting aspects of how abusive behaviours can be entrenched and supported with a framework of religious or spiritual expression. It's not everyone's cup of tea, I know, and I offer it as a counterpoint to the current maligning that is being pointed in my direction, because regardless of the current suggestions, I actually value integrity and clarity in communications.

I've also learned to call out those who would suggest otherwise, as an example to my own daughters: my 14 year old is learning to calmly look anyone in the eye who is trying to trivialise her experience, or dismiss her with any of the other tactics described in the article, call the behaviour as she sees it, expresses her desire to not have that pointed at her and asks clearly if this is how they are intending to continue treating her. I am very big on calling something what it really is, in order to prevent continuation of behaviours that have no place in an evolved and intelligent society.

So here I am, standing in the open, carrying nothing but my own integrity and autonomy. You want to discuss things in the open, with a view to raising the vibration of the entire forum, then I am up for that. If you are sincere in 'we're just not each other's cup of tea, peace be with you' as we move out of each other's sphere, this is also perfect, because even this sincerely practiced on the planet will radically alter society. You and bob want to keep taking swipes at me in other threads, I'm going to keep calling the abusive behaviour exactly what it is because I'm not afraid of the low vibration purpose and intention behind abuse.

You also might consider moving this out of the Here and Now thread; personally, I never intended to engage either of you again after what you were both called on in the Pub, but it seems neither of you can deal with me in integrity and you've underestimated my personal integrity if you think I'm going to just let you both malign me in other threads. If you want to call a halt and just let the differences be what they are- I haven't gone into other places to make pointed posts about either of you and didn't mention bob until he really started getting pointed in the new thread- then I have demonstrated a willingness to simply move in other circles. I've mostly stayed out of this thread out of the understanding that it was a familiar ground for the two of you: I do understand the concepts of autonomy and sui generis *and* I actually live them to the best of my ability because I truly am interested in an EVOLUTION, not a recycling of old rubbish and systems.

I'm clear on who I Am.

[Mark]

:grouphug:

[songsfortheotherkind]

http://daytobeyou.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Always-be-kind-for-everyone-is-fighting-a-battle.jpg

http://feministactivism.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/child-abuse-leads-to-prison.jpg

Some are enduring a harder battle than others. The cycle remains- while we refuse as a society, as a collective, to call something what it is, *in ourselves* as well as without, then it remains. I have had to really look honestly at the elements of abuse within me- I was raised by a woman whose behaviour resulted in my looking much worse than this at times- and I have continue to bring out in the sunshine the things that the virus would use to twist and shame me. I live my code. I *personally* do not see an end to the virus unless its symptoms are no longer acceptable, no matter how challenging that is to us as individuals. The cycle will not be broken by pretending there isn't one. This is my view. It may not be the view of anyone else and I am happy to keep my perspective to threads I start my Self. Being kind, loving and understanding to my mother resulted in my having lifelong injuries and being on life support several times.

There are some things that need more than kindness.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Hi Songsfortheotherkind. We don't know each other and you may have a valid reason for posting here with such impressive vigor, but what you've done is akin to walking by a house with an open window, hearing someone speaking about you and then bursting through the door to confront them.

Hmm. So if someone is in a general area and is bagging out another individual publicly this is acceptable, but my coming in and declaring my Self to the individuals concerned is not? Interesting. So in your view, how would I have more properly approached this? Given that the bagging was public and unremarked. Like domestic abuse committed behind closed doors- have I erred in speaking about the hidden thing in public?


You may have cause to do so, but you've trod rough-shod over social convention.

Social convention allows the rapists to go free, the child abusers to keep their high paying jobs, the corporate leaders to order the massacre of the West Papuan peoples in the name of gas pipes, and the poisoning of the land, air and water in the name of economic progress and corporate rule. Hmm. I'm not really big on social convention when it's used as a tool for social manipulation and hiding corruption.


I've only read a bit of your threads but I do find your presentation interesting. As I've watched the edits you've made to your above post in the past half hour, I've seen you become a bit more aware of the above, although, from what I understand of your weltanshau, your autonomous rights trump the heteronomy, which I expect all community must conform to, in your view.

Given that you have limited experience with my concepts, you're making a great deal of supposition there. All community is free to do what it wants, which is what I've said in the responses to both bob and carmody; I am free to respond to a situation that is carrying over from another environment. I've also indicated I felt this better taken out of the here and now if they wish to continue it, for obvious reasons. Yes, I do edit my posts, this is true. I do try to get accurate with what I am intending. I generally add to it rather than remove.


I expect that means that you feel it is alright to enter what many consider to be a safe-zone, no-conflict zone, with your claims of abuse.

Ah. So it's safe from any *response* to abuse, but the action of posting abusively is acceptable? I see. As for claims, if you knew the history, you would understand the context. You don't, therefore you feel you can make such definitions as 'claims'. *shrugs* This happens.


As one who has brought conflict into the village previously, I certainly understand where you are at now and hope that your energy expenditure has satisfied your sense of victimization.

Ah, now the condescending suggestions of 'sense of victimisation'. I have no sense of victimisation at all, which you would know if you actually knew me. I don't use the word victim, nor do I have an interest in the approach. You apparently have decided that you have an accurate bead on both me as a Being and on my internal processes. Curious and yet unsurprising: anyone supportive of social convention as it currently stands frequently does use those perspectives- of thinking that they have a bead on a situation and know what's 'really' going on- to attempt to shame other individuals into more acceptable behaviour.


Both Carmody and Bob are very protective of this space so I'm sure they will do what is necessary to make sure this conversation does not continue here.

I'm quite sure of this too. For my own part, I am quite sincere in keeping out of this thread, as I get it's horses for courses. If the general tone here is that it is acceptable to malign others publicly but not for those maligned to stand up for themselves, this is not the droid I seek anyway. :)


Hope the rest of your day goes better. Although I am also sure you are fine and this is not emotional at all, just you setting the record straight.

I have actually been having an awesome day, thanks, and yes I am very peaceful and clear. It's all good.

[ulli]

@ Songsie
Its 3 am and the commotion in the Village woke me up.
And I find one of your tl;dr posts, and immediately thought "oh no!!!"
but after some inner debate whether to engage or ignore you I came to the conclusion to engage even though it is clear to me that as far as personalities goes you are high maintenance and a lot of other people will end up in the waiting room while I deal with you. I even hate that expression to "deal" with someone but in your case it is the closest that describes interaction
with someone I don't want to get sucked in by. Because to be honest that is what I fear here. Total engulfment.
Here is my history with you... I was hoping this would never have to come up as it was a case closed situation, but when you first opened the Pub I was quite happy to drop by even though I'm not really into pubs, being more of a street cafe person.

And just at that moment I saw a post by someone who had once abused me via PM and who has since then been banned from the village by the mods. So that's the real reason I stayed away. I saw after a while that it was for the best as I observed you and saw someone who is operating a show business. Nothing wrong with that, in fact I honor people who have artistic talent, and wish them success and all, but being audience or fan is not on my agenda as I am into community development now.
I hardly watch movies these days. Nor do I want to go into explaining why that is so. After all, I am an autonomous being too.

Then one day I read the posts that Carmody, Borden and yourself had exchanged. I was horrified at how badly you had misread Carmody, and noted Borden's nasty attack against him. I also saw your bitchy comment after Carmody left, re "logic".
Maybe you are only aware of other's judgement of you and feel the right to reject them outright simply for being perceptive of your own flawed behavior, yet you do not grant equality back. Your posts are packed with judgemental comments and anger and pet peeves. I see no fair play in you at all.

A community has come together here in the Village where people respect each other, even though they may see each others flaws here and there these are overlooked to keep the flow oing, and nobody posts massive defensive posts because of perceived slights.

One more thing, if you want to be in show business be prepared that there might be the odd critic in the audience.
I'm mad at you because of what you did not only to Carmody and another bob, pinning unfair labels on them, but also your entire luring schtick which means you can reel people in close enough to where you can then chew them over before spitting them out again.
While I undestand that life may have scarred you which left deep anger issues that you have chosen not to address, I feel you have no right to go around calling others abuser after just one meeting. It smacks of projection.

So as a thread owner I must ask you to leave before you scar others with your overreactive and drama-loving behavior.

[Mark]

I have actually been having an awesome day, thanks, and yes I am very peaceful and clear. It's all good.

Well then, your life is perfect. Celebrate it! Thanks for the analysis, you have an interesting way of seeing things. Now let's go eat some fish. LOL

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=17029&d=1340328160

[songsfortheotherkind]

ulli, I'd already indicated a willingness to leave. I have no issues with that. I respect your wishes.




@ Songsie
Its 3 am and the commotion in the Village woke me up.
And I find one of your tl;dr posts, and immediately thought "oh no!!!"
but after some inner debate whether to engage or ignore you I came to the conclusion to engage even though it is clear to me that as far as personalities goes you are high maintenance and a lot of other people will end up in the waiting room while I deal with you. I even hate that expression to "deal" with someone but in your case it is the closest that describes interaction
with someone I don't want to get sucked in by. Because to be honest that is what I fear here. Total engulfment.
Here is my history with you... I was hoping this would never have to come up as it was a case closed situation, but when you first opened the Pub I was quite happy to drop by even though I'm not really into pubs, being more of a street cafe person.

And just at that moment I saw a post by someone who had once abused me via PM and who has since then been banned from the village by the mods. So that's the real reason I stayed away. I saw after a while that it was for the best as I observed you and saw someone who is operating a show business. Nothing wrong with that, in fact I honor people who have artistic talent, and wish them success and all, but being audience or fan is not on my agenda as I am into community development now.
I hardly watch movies these days. Nor do I want to go into explaining why that is so. After all, I am an autonomous being too.

Then one day I read the posts that Carmody, Borden and yourself had exchanged. I was horrified at how badly you had misread Carmody, and noted Borden's nasty attack against him. I also saw your bitchy comment after Carmody left, re "logic".
Maybe you are only aware of other's judgement of you and feel the right to reject them outright simply for being perceptive of your own flawed behavior, yet you do not grant equality back. Your posts are packed with judgemental comments and anger and pet peeves. I see no fair play in you at all.

A community has come together here in the Village where people respect each other, even though they may see each others flaws here and there these are overlooked to keep the flow oing, and nobody posts massive defensive posts because of perceived slights.

One more thing, if you want to be in show business be prepared that there might be the odd critic in the audience.
I'm mad at you because of what you did not only to Carmody and another bob, pinning unfair labels on them, but also your entire luring stick which means you can reel people in close enough where you can them chew them over before spitting them out again. While I undestand that life may have scarred you which left deep anger issues that you have chosen not to address, I feel you have no right to go around calling others abuser on just one meeting. It smacks of projection.
So as a thread owner I must ask you to leave before you scar others with your overreactive and drama loving behavior.

[songsfortheotherkind]

I have actually been having an awesome day, thanks, and yes I am very peaceful and clear. It's all good.

Well then, your life is perfect. Celebrate it! Thanks for the analysis, you have an interesting way of seeing things. Now let's go eat some fish. LOL


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=17029&d=1340328160

*grins at you* We can have it with our tea and sit here in Wonko the Sane's lovely waiting room.

[markpierre]

Problem 1. The idea that something outside of you can offend you.

Problem 2. The idea that you can correct it by changing what's outside of you (see problem 1.).

What's outside you IS you.

[ulli]

Oh dear,
here comes markpierre
preaching to the choir.
What else is new?
Let's have a few
Drinks on the house
Rum, wine and beer.

[Sebastion]

It sure would have been nice if you could have kept Song's (cough) "art" in a single thread...




[Mod-edit: This thread began its life as a series of posts on the thread Here and Now...What's Happening? (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30405-Here-and-Now...What-s-Happening&p=510042&viewfull=1#post510042), but was sufficiently unsuitable in tone for that thread that I made it into its own separate thread. -- Paul.]

===



I was really just wondering who else may have read this thread from start to finish

I'm in it for the tunes!

Actually, I started reading it a few months ago, and liked what I found, so decided to chip in. It's really a quite remarkable group assembled here! I've participated in various alt forums for a decade and a half now. What one typically finds are similar patterns emerging, regardless of topic. The latest issue with Songs and the pubsters is like a deja vu in that respect -- a charismatic personality with a few word hooks comes along, a clique is formed, a club house, and then the old us vs them theme that Fred pointed out. After you've seen this a few times, it gets rather wearying, which is why this Village is such a relief -- to find caring people without chips on their shoulders who can intelligently explore a variety of pertinent topics without rancor, and relate their everyday experience in a compassionate and vulnerable manner, with lots of support and humor. Pretty rare, but much appreciated!

Blessings to all!

[markpierre]

Oh dear,
here comes markpierre
preaching to the choir.
What else is new?
Let's have a few
Drinks on the house
Rum, wine and beer.

I can't drink, but I can party with you.

Was this a private party?

[ulli]

Oh dear,
here comes markpierre
preaching to the choir.
What else is new?
Let's have a few
Drinks on the house
Rum, wine and beer.

I can't drink, but I can party with you.

Was this a private party?

Only PurpleLama showed up. Cracked one can of beer and left.
Talking of drinking...apart from the odd glass of wine with dinner I don't drink much either.
Life itself is my wine of astonishment.
Too much wine turns me into a whiner.

[ulli]

It sure would have been nice if you could have kept Song's (cough) "art" in a single thread...


[Mod-edit: This thread began its life as a series of posts on the thread Here and Now...What's Happening? (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30405-Here-and-Now...What-s-Happening&p=510042&viewfull=1#post510042), but was sufficiently unsuitable in tone for that thread that I made it into its own separate thread. -- Paul.

Which thread? The Here and Now Village has a policy that says brawls belong in the Pub, but the Pub hasn't been open lately.
So here is a new venue, we could call it "The Heart of the Central Sun Caf".

[songsfortheotherkind]

Oh dear,
here comes markpierre
preaching to the choir.
What else is new?
Let's have a few
Drinks on the house
Rum, wine and beer.

I can't drink, but I can party with you.

Was this a private party?

*grins* not at all, now the rabble's moved out of the house and out into the beer garden. :D We were being too unruly near the china cabinet, you know how it is. :P

[songsfortheotherkind]

It sure would have been nice if you could have kept Song's (cough) "art" in a single thread...

this *is* a single thread... *wiggles eyebrows* The rules are different here.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Which thread? The Here and Now Village has a policy that says brawls belong in the Pub, but the Pub hasn't been open lately.

Yes it has, it's just been vigorously pm-ing itself. We were in stealth mode, see...


So here is a new venue, we could call it "The Heart of the Central Sun Caf".

/headtilt/ Ok, so is this a new thread? Because I thought this was the 'take the brawling outside' thread- are there behaviour expectations that I don't know about? You and I have nodded to our different ways of doing things and I respect that- and this isn't the Here and Now, nor the Pub. *grins at you, eyebrows raised*

My previous points regarding naming things as they are still stands, and my posts to bob and carmody stand. So are we crafting something new?

[markpierre]

Oh dear,
here comes markpierre
preaching to the choir.
What else is new?
Let's have a few
Drinks on the house
Rum, wine and beer.

I can't drink, but I can party with you.

Was this a private party?

*grins* not at all, now the rabble's moved out of the house and out into the beer garden. :D We were being too unruly near the china cabinet, you know how it is. :P

Oh good. I hate not drinking alone. And I like you guys.

[crested-duck]

I offer to be designated driver, but rowdy's will have to ride in the bed of my truck, only happy drunks get to ride up front. LOL!--Rob

[ulli]

Which thread? The Here and Now Village has a policy that says brawls belong in the Pub, but the Pub hasn't been open lately.

Yes it has, it's just been vigorously pm-ing itself. We were in stealth mode, see...?

What is there to see? By the way, if you check the latest sun pictures there is nothing there either...all gone, every last blemish.
They must have ascended while I was not paying attention.

[songsfortheotherkind]

*grins* not at all, now the rabble's moved out of the house and out into the beer garden. :D We were being too unruly near the china cabinet, you know how it is. :P

Oh good. I hate not drinking alone. And I like you guys.

well, us Aussies, we do know how to organise a pissup in a beer garden...

[RunningDeer]

Updated:

It hurts when there's disharmony. But I also know it's all part of these ending days of darkness moving into Light of the New. So I will not take sides because it is not my way. Love and healing pulsate out to All. It's not something I'm 'doing', it's an awareness of what's happening.

Blessings,
WhiteCrowBlackDeer

[meeradas]

hwYcsMiB2UM

[songsfortheotherkind]

It hurts when there's disharmony. But I also know it's all part of these ending days of darkness moving into Light of the New. So I will not take sides because it is not my way. Love and healing pulsate out to All. It's not something I'm 'doing', it's an awareness of what's happening.

You know I don't need the evolution to look all hearts and flowers- since when does it do that, really?- and I'm also aware that it is many things, in many elements. For me, there's no disharmony, there's evolution in every moment, which works for some and not others, and that's cool. I don't expect everyone to be into the things I'm into, or to experience things the way I do, *and* those things are part of my *own* evolution and autonomy. You know how I feel about agreement and homogeny of thought, and I know you experience some of the ways I am as dissonance; it's all ok with me. infinite possibilities are *not* going to always look or be harmonious and harmony isn't the point, at least to me: sure, I don't want uproar and chaos to a ridiculous degree and I've also seen you do tai chi, I know you know sometimes boundaries call to be honored.

I'm not fighting with anyone, that would be heteronomy and regurgitated virus. I kick my own arse about that when I find it in me. :)

[PurpleLama]

I'm pretty sure, whatever you look for, that you will find.

Being the happiest of drunks, I'm calling shotgun.

[ViralSpiral]

I'm pretty sure, whatever you look for, that you will find.

Being the happiest of drunks, I'm calling shotgun.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_V9Y0QobCIn8/TKhj7QpDc_I/AAAAAAAAADY/6XK5exCF8g0/s1600/vw_sidecar.png


Chong, mate, is that mostly Maui wowie and Labrador?


:biggrin1:

[nearing]

Gosh, I feel like I just opened a door off the street and peeked in to see a huge family quarrel of the Italian kind. Lots of yelling and hand waving. I don't understand a word of it but it makes sort of chuckle as I back slowly out of the door before I get hit by a thrown vase.

Just remember - you all touch each others lives to work out the Karma...

:fencing::fish::boink::moony::argue:

:yield:

[Fred Steeves]

Gosh, I feel like I just opened a door off the street and peeked in to see a huge family quarrel of the Italian kind. Lots of yelling and hand waving. I don't understand a word of it but it makes sort of chuckle as I back slowly out of the door before I get hit by a thrown vase.

Just remember - you all touch each others lives to work out the Karma...

:fencing::fish::boink::moony::argue:

:yield:

Hey nearing, you mean kind of like this?http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif

j_kVCfzRctU

[nearing]

Gosh, I feel like I just opened a door off the street and peeked in to see a huge family quarrel of the Italian kind. Lots of yelling and hand waving. I don't understand a word of it but it makes sort of chuckle as I back slowly out of the door before I get hit by a thrown vase.

Just remember - you all touch each others lives to work out the Karma...

:fencing::fish::boink::moony::argue:

:yield:

Hey nearing, you mean kind of like this?http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif

j_kVCfzRctU

LOL! Exactly!!!!!!

[Mark]

hey, i was just the guy who tries to step in between the brawlers and finds himself flat on his back and then gets up to go back to the bar for one last shot before the cops get there and then heads home for a soft bed and a dreamless sleep to wake up and find himself in the pokey with everybody else. lol

so much for my new-found commitment to staying out of the way of colliding paradigms. i`ll take my tea half cream and 10 spoons of sugar please, and a soft, gentle song to sooth my aching head. it was a looong and eventful night.

[another bob]

Well, apparently I've inadvertantly started a thread here, so I may as well speak up and directly address the complaintant. Before doing so, I apologize to the Village for the ensuing disturbance caused by a remark I made in an earlier post, which seems to have raised the ire of Ms. Songs (who btw is no stranger to using her pub thread to take shots at all those she deems "infected"). So, without further ado . . .


Hiya Songs!

As you may recall, I was an early supporter of your writing, finding it fresh and creative, and consequently i joined the Pub at the outset, and was a frequent contributor. It was only after watching that venue, which started out light and fun, steadily degenerate into a rather top-down cult of personality that I became dismayed, and eventually suggested that you "get over yourself". Nor am I alone in that assessment, which has been shared frequently with me by many Avalon members who have had a taste of your offerings.

On numerous occasions, I found you arrogantly characterizing the rest of the Avalon forum as somehow "virus-infected", and indicating that your little gathering was the only place on the forum safe from such a self-styled scourge. This was a clear warning sign for me -- the beginning of "us vs them". The mind which is so fascinated by seeing the virus everywhere is itself a virus by-product.

I must say that I have rarely encountered someone so self-enamored, and impervious to alternate points of view. In retrospect, I suspect you even perceived yourself to be in some kind of competition with me. One can usually find envy at the root of most conflict, and it seems you deperately needed maximum approval. This became more apparent towards the end, in your mis-characterization of my posts on 'no-mind' as reflecting some kind of zombie death culture, despite my (and others) repeated attempts to clarify the matter.

I also found this attitude of yours more than a little ironic, given your fantasy assertion of being an fanged and horned succubus, replete with the jpeg after jpeg of blood-dripping mouths of buxom sci-fi babes and dark demons feasting on victims with which you regularly assault the viewers. Moreover, you insist that you are some kind of superior non-human "otherkind", with special powers and capacities, which we puny humans can't access. Hmmm . . . where have I heard that one before.

At any rate, to the immediate issue: I do not intend to get into a go-round with you, because I have discovered, as have many others, such effort will lead nowhere, except to be met with an avalanche of wordy bs from you and yours. I referred to your current game as a readily-apparent example of the kind of dysfunctional clique that I have witnessed develop on certain forums over the years -- a cult of personality. I call it as I see it, Songs, and I felt that example was pertinent as a comparison with the Here & Now thread, which offers a totally different vibe and possibility.

Now, I'm sure you'll have plenty to say in defensive rebuttal. Knock yourself out! I will not engage you further -- I'm no masochist. I've made my view open and clear on the matter, I wish you well in your ongoing pursuits, and will leave it at that.

:yo:

[Lifebringer]

Do you feel the "reptilian back biting" now on Avalon is just the newbies awakening and not understanding. I don't. I feel there are infiltrators that have no good on their mind, just negative chaotic blathering, either political, or just bashing those who ask. I feel it's time to air out the dunderheads doing this for "fun." The Elite do stuff like this for fun too. It's called casting doubt and fear, and so I will take my leave "FOR NOW," until the vibration picks up again.

[Sierra]

Well, apparently I've inadvertantly started a thread here, so I may as well speak up and directly address the complaintant. Before doing so, I apologize to the Village for the ensuing disturbance caused by a remark I made in an earlier post, which seems to have raised the ire of Ms. Songs (who btw is no stranger to using her pub thread to take shots at all those she deems "infected"). So, without further ado . . .


Thank you Bob! I've been reading the Pub thread backwards for hours trying to find the post where things blew up and it made NO sense to me that Borden got on yours and Carmody's case for the sharing of your paths and experience. I guess you weren't supposed to share over there ... (?) I gave up at that point. Signal noise took over ...

It still doesn't make sense to me ... oh well, some days I am short a few bricks in the fireplace...

[Borden]

I am still too furious and disgusted to post anything substantial about this whole business.

I hope that other readers will understand that the silence of some does not mean acquiescence.

There's one thing I need to comment on though. To you, Ulli, I will say that to describe my reaction to Carmody as a 'nasty attack' is manipulative and I won't stand for it. There are two occasions you might be citing, and on both those occasions what you saw was a robust defense, not a 'nasty attack'. One was a defense of myself, and the other a defense of someone else. If Carmody had wanted to discuss this with me I'm sure he would have, and I would happily have engaged him on whatever level he chose to engage me. I am not 'set against' anybody, and I am far more reasonable than you would paint me with your remark.

I have absolutely zero interest in arguing with you on this or any subject, and I have never posted in your here and now thread. If you want to use loaded language that twists the facts, I would rather you not aim it me again please, because I resent it. I haven't said a word about you prior to this, whatever I've witnessed and whatever I may think. I have seen several 'nasty attacks' on Songsy now, yours included, and I'm neither surprised nor impressed. However, she doesn't have or need bodyguards, and for that reason - despite extreme temptation - I am not willing to launch into the response I feel those attacks deserve. Please don't draw me in with off-hand, hit and run comments like the one you dropped about me. The reason I write this is because there are some who might see what you said and assume it to be the truth. I'd rather they make their own minds up, and there are plenty, by the way, who can - and who at the time saw what you refer to and the way you refer to it rather differently.

~

Sierra, I would never 'get on anyone's case' for simply sharing their paths and experiences, however different they may be from mine. I've made that quite clear in previous posts. Sharing is fine. Imposing is not.

[DeDukshyn]

What another interesting thread. All I see is people over-reacting to the image that other people hold them in inside their heads (although it has been civil, many are clearly participating - not singling anyone out). One cannot "argue themselves better" in that regard, but people sure still do like try though don't they ;-) What's the definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing over ..... ;)

Thanks for the read!

[songsfortheotherkind]

I will not engage you further -- I'm no masochist. I've made my view open and clear on the matter, I wish you well in your ongoing pursuits, and will leave it at that.:yo:

excellent, bob- take more potshots- I stopped reading after the first few and jumped to the end- disguise them as higher whatever and then walk away. I was simply interested to see if you'd address the issue or keep doing what you've been doing- the personal potshots and judgements- and you've answered that.

I'm happy to leave you to it, as I was before. I go where the evolution is possible and present for me and everyone's evolution- or devolution, in many cases- looks different.

From now on, if you take potshots at me from other threads, I will be asking the mods to deal with it rather than involve the general community; involving others isn't actually my style- if it *was* I'd have been all over the board. Once you and Carmody left and the issue you both created was discussed and resolved, neither of you were ever mentioned badly in the Pub- or mentioned at all, as I recall, except certain individuals hoping you were well- and it will remain that way, as we've got way more fun stuff to get into. I just accepted that you and I were different Beings and didn't need to gnaw any bone about that.

You have made your subjective opinion of me public on quite a few occasions now, so it can be considered known. You have no further reason to mention me in any thread except to expound your opinion, which would have only negative energy, and your opinion of me indicates that the only reason you would turn up in any thread I create in the future would be to bring dissonance. As I'm looking for *what works*, we have no reason to ever communicate again. I can do that quite peacefully.

*nods and walks away*

[Anchor]

So, its done.

Take the rest to the pub.

I petition for thread closure.

[DeDukshyn]

Mixed feelings .. not on thread closure .. all for that ... on Songs and Bobs "differences" ... if you can call them that ... ;)

[songsfortheotherkind]

Thank you Bob! I've been reading the Pub thread backwards for hours trying to find the post where things blew up and it made NO sense to me that Borden got on yours and Carmody's case for the sharing of your paths and experience.

As in any situation that involves two different parties, a third party coming in with nothing more than a glossy and vague understanding of the situation can really contribute nothing of value to the matter: aide workers in other countries learned this lesson over a long period of time from the 1960s attitude of going in thinking that *they* knew what was necessary for all concerned, to the more long range view held now; many aide workers actually live in the communities for several years, keeping their mouths mostly shut and opening their ears, eyes and hearts, learning which are the *important* questions to ask and which are simply pre-loaded with assumption. Great work has been done with this approach- effective, beneficial to the locals and carrying the signal of true transformation. The old way simply created more issues- ever heard of the 'Green Revolution'?

The Pub is a community that has evolved in the time it has been operational. There is a context embedded language that has already evolved there, because that's what the individuals gathered there are, in part, interested in. The situation you are referring to happened within the context of the community and a brief perusal of a skinny portfolio of papers isn't going to give you any platform from which you can speak informedly and with insight. So perhaps you might want to rethink the judgements and assessments because you actually don't have any idea of what happened and anything you say is going to be from your subjective assumptions based on the little you know. It was an ongoing situation that resulted in a lot of discussion and platform shifting in the Pub, involving quite a number of the Pub community. I respectfully suggest that you are allowing personality preference masquerade as informed knowledge.

I'm speaking Pub language here. Every member of the Pub Club will understand pretty much exactly what I just said and will resonate, to one degree or another, with the essence and foundational concepts I'm basing these remarks on. I'm not saying that to brag in any way, I'm saying it to demonstrate that you as, say, an English speaker from suburban Somewhere, with a fresh degree in Sociology clutched in your hand, have come to the rainforest on an far distant planet where the natives speak a local dialect, have utterly different customs, history and perspectives- and you think you know what's going on.

In situations such as have arisen over the past 24 hours, it's really, really, really easy- and, in fact, modern society's default position- to attack and destroy the messenger, rather than consider the message, in what the messenger brought directly or indirectly to the situation. It's a combination of first brain (I don't use the term reptilian, it's erroneous) and limbic brain reactivity without any significant neocortex function- what I call "Burn the Witch" mode. Pitchfork wielding mob mentality, except these days it's done verbally. The foundational platform is the same- squash anything that doesn't fit the dominant society within any area- science, art, education, religion, politics, society and forums- they *all* mirror each other in their reaction to anything that doesn't fit the prescribed parameters.

I am utterly disinterested in this recursive and closed system behaviour. It makes me look many things to many individuals, few of which are flattering: as it happens I don't give a rats about social memes and conventions, I'm interested in what is beyond that because the issues that currently plague the sentient Beings of this planet aren't going to go away by tweaking and refurbishing the same paradigms that create the issues.

You may have absolutely NO interest in this perspective whatsoever, in which case you will continue to hold your views, perceptions and assumptions, which you are *entirely* within your autonomy to do. I'm not interested in engaging in personality differences. If, however, you are interested in perspectives without personality, then perhaps what I have written will have some interest to you and co-creative exploration can ensue. I open to this and I have no problem if you have the former, 'no thanks', providing it doesn't turn into Burn the Witch, in which case I will respond if necessary.

Now, perhaps, you know me a little more.

[songsfortheotherkind]

So, its done.

Take the rest to the pub.

I petition for thread closure.

Mmm, this was never about personalities, Anchor- it's about operating platforms that have profoundly different perspectives and expressions. Personally I have seen this as a micro-macro exploration, on many levels, and I still do- I'm really not interested in 'personalities', because there's no evolution in that - and my personal view is that without some kind of *profound* EVOLUTION things look rather grim for the sentient Beings on this planet.

This is supposed to be a forum for evolutionaries, yet as soon as evolution comes up in a form that the general population isn't comfortable, the default 'burn the witch' position comes to the fore- and from an evolutionary standpoint that is a problem. I can handle the flak- heck, if I couldn't I would have been drummed out of this place long ago with the rigid social mores and thought policing that operate beneath the surface here- but that stuff doesn't bother me: I grew up being beaten the crap out of by my peers in the schoolyard because at 8 I knew words like antidisestablishmentarianism and could read at a year 12 level and that threatened their world, so they knew exactly how to deal with that. I know I'm short, weird looking, and physically scarred, so the physical insults don't work, the personal insults don't work, the insults hidden behind convoluted intellectualism or pseudo- spirituality don't work- so the *only thing left* is to either consider intelligently what I"m talking about, discuss the platform I'm pointing to, consider the possibilities I'm bringing to the table, rather than looking at the messenger, making personality based judgements and trying to set fire to them. I am *made* of fire, so that's not going to work either.

I'm not saying I'm everyone's cup of tea- I have *zero interest* in being so, it's honestly and truthfully not my thing- it does feel yuck to be abused or maligned, sure, *and* if that was going to shut me up it would have done so by now; I process the yuck, take a few deep breaths, reconfigure and keep following my path. I'm not interested in those who want to respond to me with insults and potshots at my personality, they truly are a dime a dozen and represent nothing but the dominant paradigm to me; I am looking for individuals who can think outside the boxes, who will help me refine and enrich this platform I'm building, who are interested in *creating* something new, not in clinging to what has been because that's all they've got.

I'm actually totally ok with the way things have gone, because there have been some who wouldn't come to the Pub because of things that have been said about me personally in other places that were less than flattering and actually cast me as the resident Bad Witch, deserving nothing more than a good pitchforking and tossing. Now that's slightly different and there's a different energy in the place, including in the Pub. I keep saying, and I will KEEP saying, agreement, homogeny and consensus are NOT necessary- there are better elements to work with, AUTONOMY being a foundational one.

If someone doesn't like me personally that's totally understandable, I'm weird! I'm outspoken! I don't play 'nice' a lot of the time, because *to me* that's a waste of time- and there are others who take what I talk about and reword it so that others don't have to deal with the way *I* express my Self. I have *zero interest* in being a guru, god or geisha for *anyone*- so there's really no issue for me there. I don't even care if what I'm talking about interests or suits others- that's their autonomy in action, which I fully resonate to- it gets really tedious when any individual equates 'I don't resonate with either you as an individual or with what you talk about' with 'and that gives me the right to malign you to others, tear you down any way I see fit, write posts that spread my negative judgements as if these are absolute truth and make a point of pointing negative energy at you whenever I can'- *that* is just the same old controller paradigm's tactics, and I'll call them as I see them, not because I'm interested in personality conflict but because the tactics they are employing are part of the foundation for every act of terrorism, brutality and war on the planet- and THAT matters to me. Calling something what it is is the first act of empowerment, *in my experience*.

That's who I am, that's what I'm about. This thread being out in the sunlight, rather than hidden in the here and now thread, means that others are involved in the conversation. That's fine with me- to me, it all serves the evolution and that's what I'm personally interested in.

[Carmody]

I don't play 'nice' a lot of the time, because *to me* that's a waste of time-

I'd like to believe that there is more to it than prattle, but alas, I do not see it. And circular, at that.

Note that I did indeed thank Bob's post. It was not a casual thanking.

Your posturing does not impress, nor confuse my sight. It might (confuse), for others, but that is the heart of the issue, is it not?

[Marianne]

This thread is closed.