Obamacare stands: your thoughts or opinions?

[dreamer]

Just wondering how my fellow avalonians feel about the 5-4 decision made today.

[CdnSirian]

It seems that the US is getting less and less shy about appearing as socialist as it is and always has been.

[conk]

I feel like puking my state owned guts out!

[bmdb]

First off just a correction it was a 5-4 vote...just want to have correct facts for whatever that is worth. Secondly, I think it is a sad day. The justices agreed that if you use the commerce clause then yes it is unconstitutional for congress to force you to buy something. But they determined that if you look at it in the context of Congress's right to tax then it is ok...in other words they aren't forcing you to buy anything but if you don't they will tax (not fine) you more. That is the biggest pile of bull dung I have ever heard of. Just SAD!

[Arpheus]

I work in MA so it doesnt change anything for me,because if you work in ma its mandatory anyway,but for all the other state out there,i am sure a lot of people are going to be unhappy about this,this just goes to prove that the govt can get away with anything these days,because the herdof sheep wont do crap about it,sad sad times really!!

[Kindred]

With this ruling, most likely I will not be able to afford to live in my home any more...

Perhaps this is the impetus I need to develop an alternate lifestyle...

OR... 'move on up' to Better Pastures.

We'll see how this truly pans out...

In Unity, Peace and Love... and a New Earth

[Lefty Dave]

Anyone with half a brain knows the fed govt has NO right to force a citizen to buy anything....

I look at WHO upheld this tyranny and WHO dissented ....this speaks volumes !!!

When will America , and the world, awaken to reality?





The court's four liberal justices, Stephen Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor, joined Roberts in the outcome. Justices Samuel Alito, Anthony Kennedy, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas dissented.

[noprophet]

Being american, and having ignored all this medical mumbo jumbo for awhile now, I have a two part question.

How much does it cost and what happens when I don't pay it?

[LarryC]

First off just a correction it was a 5-4 vote...just want to have correct facts for whatever that is worth. Secondly, I think it is a sad day. The justices agreed that if you use the commerce clause then yes it is unconstitutional for congress to force you to buy something. But they determined that if you look at it in the context of Congress's right to tax then it is ok...in other words they aren't forcing you to buy anything but if you don't they will tax (not fine) you more. That is the biggest pile of bull dung I have ever heard of. Just SAD!

I seriously doubt if these votes are authentic anyway. They always try to make it look like it's a fair vote, and close. I'm sure the decision was known long beforehand. I would have been very surprised if it had turned out otherwise.

[Unified Serenity]

Now, the economy will truly implode. Good job Congress, SCOTUS, POTUS, Rothschild, etc., the plan is coming together nicely and this old building we've been in will soon be a completely unlivable one and we will beg for a new one. Just as planned.

Nothing to see here, move along folks.

http://gisapps.co.union.nc.us/nothing-to-see-here.gif

[hardrock]

Great humanitarian concept to provide healthcare to everyone. Terrible and illegal execution though. Much like everything else the US government does.

[Belle]

I work in MA so it doesnt change anything for me,because if you work in ma its mandatory anyway,but for all the other state out there,i am sure a lot of people are going to be unhappy about this,this just goes to prove that the govt can get away with anything these days,because the herdof sheep wont do crap about it,sad sad times really!!

I, too, live in MA, where we have mandatory health insurance thanks to Romney.

It's a mess. So many people applied to MassHealth because they could not afford to buy insurance, and MassHealth has options from payments they decide people can afford to totally free insurance. It's costing the state a bundle.

Five years later, and it's almost impossible to get a pcp because of the shortage created by this law, yet they are central to health care...almost everything needs a referral from a pcp, who coordinates the care a person gets. The state legislature has been discussing a bill to allow interns to serve as pcp's of a sort to help the situation. Physicians assistants are almost totally useless. And the quality of care has diminished. God forbid you need anything more than a blood pressure check and lab work...you get passed around from pcp to specialist (if you're lucky enough to have an insurance they will accept!), back to pcp and little to nothing gets done. The pcp will tell you they defer to the specialist. The specialist will tell you they are there only to advise the pcp and they defer to the pcp. And round and round it goes.

I've been fighting the system for four years now trying to get some kind of firm diagnosis and care for my disabled son who is in chronic pain. All we've asked is to find out exactly what the problem is, can it be fixed, and if not, what are the alternatives. Still going from pcp to specialist, back and forth, without any answers they are willing to commit to. Four years with chronic pain and still no pain management...that's just crazy wrong.

It's bad enough when they write laws for our "safety" that comes with a price tag attached. But when they are allowed to tell us how we must spend our money on a sick system "for our benefit", that's going too far. It's never for our benefit, but rather for the greedy industries that profit from such legislation.

To take a system, the medical industry, that is fubar and require everyone to participate is the epitomy of just how disfunctional our government has become, imo. It just proves to me that we have the best government money can buy.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

They already force us to buy disability insurance and take it straight out of our pay. They already require us to buy into a retirement plan and take it straight out of our pay.

I laughed today at Romney's speech. The mandate was a great idea when it was his idea. The mandate was a great idea when Republicans proposed it during the Clinton era. Now it is a bad idea because anything Obama does must be opposed. If Obama proposed a policy that said we should not drink the blood of infants, the Republicans would quickly say that not drinking the blood of infants was a job killer. And still no real proposal to solve the health care problems we have faced for decades now.

If I believed in the two-party presidential puppet show, I would be annoyed that Republicans have still offered no ideas except "Oppose anything Obama does, no matter what" and "Lower taxes on the rich". Meanwhile the democrats renew the treasonous patriot act every year, haven't reformed the TSA, refuse to address illegal immigration issues, still haven't closed gitmo, and still haven't done jack for homeless veterans.

Don't pick sides in the stupidity circus, folks. That's what they want you to do. As Haymitch said to Katniss, "Remember who the real enemy is."

[hardrock]

The PCP shortage is a huge issue when they are the healthcare gatekeepers of a low paying system. In most states there is a delicate and highly political balance of whom and how many are accepted into medical school. More PCP's = lower pay for them. Not enough = low standards of care. Also, it takes on average about 5-6 years of school post Bachelor's to get your general med license, so anything changed today will not reflect in the amount of physicians for quite some time.

[jagman]

Shame on you, Chief justice John Roberts! You sold your soul sir. You were probably compromised but it makes no difference now. Pearl Harbor
also caught us off guard. I fell ill today when this decision......abomination was delivered. I feel so sad. I need to get some perspective before
I comment any further.

[Unified Serenity]

Shame on you, Chief justice John Roberts! You sold your soul sir. You were probably compromised but it makes no difference now. Pearl Harbor
also caught us off guard. I fell ill today when this decision......abomination was delivered. I feel so sad. I need to get some perspective before
I comment any further.

You have to have one first in order to sell it.

[Arpheus]

I work in MA so it doesnt change anything for me,because if you work in ma its mandatory anyway,but for all the other state out there,i am sure a lot of people are going to be unhappy about this,this just goes to prove that the govt can get away with anything these days,because the herdof sheep wont do crap about it,sad sad times really!!

I, too, live in MA, where we have mandatory health insurance thanks to Romney.

It's a mess. So many people applied to MassHealth because they could not afford to buy insurance, and MassHealth has options from payments they decide people can afford to totally free insurance. It's costing the state a bundle.

Five years later, and it's almost impossible to get a pcp because of the shortage created by this law, yet they are central to health care...almost everything needs a referral from a pcp, who coordinates the care a person gets. The state legislature has been discussing a bill to allow interns to serve as pcp's of a sort to help the situation. Physicians assistants are almost totally useless. And the quality of care has diminished. God forbid you need anything more than a blood pressure check and lab work...you get passed around from pcp to specialist (if you're lucky enough to have an insurance they will accept!), back to pcp and little to nothing gets done. The pcp will tell you they defer to the specialist. The specialist will tell you they are there only to advise the pcp and they defer to the pcp. And round and round it goes.

I've been fighting the system for four years now trying to get some kind of firm diagnosis and care for my disabled son who is in chronic pain. All we've asked is to find out exactly what the problem is, can it be fixed, and if not, what are the alternatives. Still going from pcp to specialist, back and forth, without any answers they are willing to commit to. Four years with chronic pain and still no pain management...that's just crazy wrong.

It's bad enough when they write laws for our "safety" that comes with a price tag attached. But when they are allowed to tell us how we must spend our money on a sick system "for our benefit", that's going too far. It's never for our benefit, but rather for the greedy industries that profit from such legislation.

To take a system, the medical industry, that is fubar and require everyone to participate is the epitomy of just how disfunctional our government has become, imo. It just proves to me that we have the best government money can buy.

Am sorry to hear about your issues with your son,but like i said in my post we get to eat ths kind of crap because the herd of sheep that we are all part of doesnt have the guts to do anything solid and concrete enough to end this madness,because thats what i call this stuff its just MADNESS.And if you think this is bad imho this is just the beggining,i honestly believe this was some sort of test to see how far they can keep pushing us little lambs to keep doing this things its just insanity and my blood boils when i think about it , arrgghh,sorry folks but its getting harder and harder to swallow the crap lately it really is !!

[StarDust]

I think that this is just another side show designed to distract people from what is really going on in the world. Soon we will have technologies presented to us that will CURE people. That will mean the end of medical treatment as we know it - end to health care, end to big pharma, end to insurance companies. In the interim, I think that everyone having some form of coverage is the right thing to do. Why should people who purchase health insurance always have to carry the burden of those who go without it. I think we should have gone to a single payer system just like every other civilized country in this world. But if we need to 'stick' with our current system where insurance companies make profits off of other peoples pain, then so be it. Proper health care should be a human right, not a privilege reserved for those with money.

[Belle]

I posted to share what has happened in just one state after 5 years of a mandatory health "care" system. Obamacare may just prove to be an even bigger nightmare...imo, MA was a test run.

Just a reminder that there are alternatives to the medical industry...as most of you know. We've had more success with chiropractic, acupuncture, Chinese herbal medicines, MAP, biofeedback, etc., as well as hemp which provides instant pain relief when we can get it. Of course, MA has not passed a medical marijuana bill yet...can't go taking profit away from pharma now, can we?

[jagman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=P3hY1eagq88

[scarletfire]

The alt media keeps telling us that Obama takes orders from the Bush gang, I thought it was interesting that it was justice Roberts who allowed Obamacare to slide by 5-4.
Chief Justice Roberts was appointed by Bush Jr and has always been seen as somebody who will uphold conservative ideals. I think what fools everybody is that Obamacare is a corporate fantasy not a liberal or socialist fantasy. I think Obamacare went through because it helps the insurance companies more than the american people just as citizens united helps corporations instead of the American people. Obamacare forces citizens to become customers of the insurance companies which is obviously good for insurance companies. I'm not totally convinced that Obama is a pawn of the Bush gang but it is kinda awkward how the Bush appointee held the door open for the Obama plan to go through. Kinda like orders are being taken from the same folks. Is this too far of a stretch?

[Fred Steeves]

Interesting what has happened since I finally decided to take total and complete responsibility for my life, with no one else to blame for anything, but who I see in the mirror daily. These people seemingly in charge are nothing of the sort, they are just acting that way, and they are desperate, and terrified..

You know how contagious laughter can be? Wait til a small but vocal group just starts publicly laughing at the authority this select group seems to think they still have. Hell, I think they may even start laughing themselves, it might just be the kind of relief they are looking for.http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif

Cheers,
Fred

[Alie]

I was thinking this would be / may become a FLASH POINT.

[kcbc2010]

Being american, and having ignored all this medical mumbo jumbo for awhile now, I have a two part question.

How much does it cost and what happens when I don't pay it?



There's a fine of $750.00 (approx. guess) if you don't buy. How much it costs is TBD? Nobody knows and it depends on what plans are available to you through your work place. If your workplace doesn't provide insurance, then you have to buy something from the "government health care exchanges." Again, who knows what it cost......how much does it really cost for America to get sold down the river?

[kcbc2010]

If it wasn't evident before, then it's evident now that the American people have got some serious clean-up work to do. I'm wondering who got threatened and who got bought off, 'cuz this is just not the America that I remember growing up. Sadly, it won't be another 10-20 years before the masses realize what a freakin' mess they've asked for and made for themselves.

I say that because I've seen how my interest will wane in specific area and then (it seems) like everyone decides that this will be the trendy new "thing". Sadly, freedom (like we talk about it) won't be trendy for awhile. I wish I was wrong, but some events need to play out fully before people realize they are a bad idea.

I totally wish that I was smarter because when I was younger, like 20 years ago, I thought some of these more Socialist ideas were actually good for society and didn't know any better. Now, I have to suck it up and realize that part of this was created with my energy.... I'm not sure "you win some, you lose" some applies because we do the best we can at the time. However, I am more aware of how my energy and thoughts can change things. So, I try to be more aware of my "creations". Though - admittedly, I'm not very successful a lot of the time - as this whole idea is still rather new to me. I'm rambling now - sorry.

ObamaCare bad. Being awake good. That's the only way to really sum up how I feel.

[jjjones]

more taxes for our waning middle class. the fate of our health is left to the decisions of "others". wish the citizens of corporate america would open their minds and eyes to "UNDERSTAND" that there is only one body with two heads that equates our political system. it is not even necessary to vote for president, IT DOESN'T MATTER! the top of the pyramid puppeteers already "SELECTED" their "CHOSEN ONE". such drama! hope "we the people" wake up and unite and "LET FREEDOM RING". if we don't get our arses moving, woe are we. everyone take care. namaste, peace and love universally :)

[Rocky_Shorz]

It seems that the US is getting less and less shy about appearing as socialist as it is and always has been.

I love Canadians with public health care that give 25% of their national income to the queen...

in a Nation that prides itself as one nation under God why would anyone not believe they should take care of the less fortunate...

call it socialist like your banker masters program you to say...

we call it being humane...

[rgray222]

We all know that social security, medicare, medicaid teeter on the brink of insolvency, we all know that fraud and theft from these social programs is epidemic. The supreme court, specifically, one man, justice roberts just created the largest entitlement program on the planet. If you look at the numbers, the health care law that was passed is on a fast track to insolvency. Therefore it puts the United States on a track to financial insolvency. No matter how much the media pretended the president was actually surprised, I honestly believe that this decision was a foregone conclusion.

The impact of this ruling will not be felt for a few years, between now and the election you will hear about all the great stuff in this bill without feeling any financial impact whatsoever. There will be a day of reckoning and it will be painful to the many if not most people in the country.

Also, we now know that the federal government can tax its citizens for virtually any reason. As of today the arm of the national government can reach through any state border and tax a citizen for whatever reason they want. Under the constitution this is not allowed but all bets are now off the table. We have moved away from a collection of states to nationalistic society.If you are familiar with world history you then know that this is a very dangerous road to be on! This takes away the underpinning of what has made america strong, centralizes money and power to a very small collection of powerful politicians.

Obama said he was going to fundamentally change the united states, as of today that has actually happened!

[CdnSirian]

Same old question...who benefits?

[Rocky_Shorz]

if you are going to keep shoveling money at banks, why not shovel it at the 2nd largest business in America... Healthcare...

the only way health care cost will go down, is if the ones who have been fighting healthcare, instead start going after bloated bills the healthcare is paying...

why should a cast cost $75 in one location, but charges of $10K for the same injury sent to healthcare to pay...
(http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?46787-The-high-cost-of-health-care&p=512838&viewfull=1#post512838)
once we get beyond this election, maybe the world will start working with their brains again to get back on track, this tug of war over the 99 percent is coming to an end...

News stations broadcasting gloom...

wars coming... spike in oil prices caused by the media
everyone is unemployed... it's so bad you shouldn't even try... Media depression...
and yet it takes 30 minutes longer to drive to work today than 6 months ago... people are getting back to work...
Iran farted... spike in oil prices caused by the media
Banks are going Broke... but yet they are having the largest profits since 08...

America's underground economy is $4T which means every bank in the world could fail, and nobody would notice...

now you asked what everyone thinks about today's ruling...

an old friend passed from a disease that could have been prevented with health care...

auto deduct 3% of everyone's pay to cover health care and shut IRS taxes don't need Fed Res collection agents...

flat tax along with the start of healthcare...

big changes are needed, and they won't come from whining because you don't like the President...

they will come when we the people stand up and start marching demanding change...

[ghostrider]

forcing me to buy something I can't afford will not help me . making me pay a penalty for not buying something I can't afford wont help me . Government knows best ? hell they can''t balance their own checkbook , last time I looked they were 16 TRILLION in the red . freedom is gone. next will be free speech, then guns, then the right to assemble, then religion, one by one they will take away every article of the constitution. health insurance companies once again will get all the money. once again corporations get help and the working man gets crushed. time for a revolution, and fire all politicains, judges, and end federal government and get back to the states, let the governor and the people of each state run THEIR state. I don't need a politicain in DC telling me anything about how to live, period ...sad we need protection from our own government. our founding fathers would be on horseback racing towards the white house with guns blazing and the flag flying and the entire population would be right behind them cheering . FREEDOM !!!

¤=[Post Update]=¤


The alt media keeps telling us that Obama takes orders from the Bush gang, I thought it was interesting that it was justice Roberts who allowed Obamacare to slide by 5-4.
Chief Justice Roberts was appointed by Bush Jr and has always been seen as somebody who will uphold conservative ideals. I think what fools everybody is that Obamacare is a corporate fantasy not a liberal or socialist fantasy. I think Obamacare went through because it helps the insurance companies more than the american people just as citizens united helps corporations instead of the American people. Obamacare forces citizens to become customers of the insurance companies which is obviously good for insurance companies. I'm not totally convinced that Obama is a pawn of the Bush gang but it is kinda awkward how the Bush appointee held the door open for the Obama plan to go through. Kinda like orders are being taken from the same folks. Is this too far of a stretch?

another chess move. bush's hands still on the wheel. there are no accidents. maybe bush put him in the position knowing he would make sure we lose freedom to choose.

[jackovesk]

I think 'Dees Illustration' as per usual is around the mark of the situation at hand and who really is to benefit...:yes4:

http://rense.com/1.imagesH/screw_dees.jpg

[jcocks]

You know, something like this should actually help improve the health of the average american..... But the way your health system is going, I wouldn't be surprised if the system suffered a complete collapse in the very near future once this bill has time to settle in....

Boy I'm glad to be living in Australia at the moment..... (Not that it's all that better, but at least we have a healthcare system that works, by comparison)...

[DeBron]

I read a couple posts on here about going to several doctors and still not knowing what the true ailment of the child is. Let us look at that example.
In the previous system, for you to be able to do that you would have to be rich or have a REALLY good health plan. If you didn't have a really good helath plan your child would've either been kicked off coverage, or you would get large bills for all his tests and procedures that they no longer would pay for. Also, the doctors still wouldn't know what was wrong with your child.


Under the current system you are under, you are frustrated because the doctors don't know what your child is suffering from. You still get to go to the doctors and try and find out what is wrong. Also you dont have hundreds of thousands of dollars of bills that you owe.

So under the old way, you have large medical debt that you would not be able to pay off, and your child still suffers.
Under ACA(Affordable Care Act) you don't have those large bills, and your child still suffers.


Moral of the study, try holistic medicine, change in diet, maybe even change in location(some places are polluted with unconfirmed disease causing chemicals)

The point of the Bill is to get more people insured, because neither Democrats or Republicans are willing to end Health Insurance(which is what would happen if there was a single payer system).

A lot of people want single-payer but neglect to think about all the people that will suddenly not have jobs
The people that would be unemployed would be half of those ladies you see in the doctor's office(don't need medical billing technicians if there is only one type of bill) and all insurance companies and their employees

This does total well over a million people

So a compromise was to do the exact thing that Republicans had tried to do since Reagan was in office ie. Put everyone on insurance.

Everyone is covered, everyone shares the burden. Perhaps even everyone will start to take personal responsibility and the costs will go down because noone is sick(a dream of mine).

[humanalien]

It really isn't obama care, it's health insurance company care.
It was them that drafted this bill and it's them that will make
billions from it's passing, just like the auto insurance companies
made out like bandits when auto insurance was forced down
our throats.

Now, if you don't buy health insurance, the irs has the right to tax
you for not buying any. It isn't health care but an irs tax.

One of their main goals is to stop wasting money on the elderly
and just let them die. Kiss your dear mother and father good-bye
because the government will have them killed.

[jagman]

A line in the sand has been drawn. We The People, Are at war with a liberal socialistic, insidious and radical ideology. Dont kid yourself anymore This is war. The night before SCOTUS handed the decision down, A well known and highly respected democratic political strategist
Pat Caddell stated on Hannity that "Be very careful because you dont even know what your up against!" It's in the hands of the American people now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI1X6ejawxA&feature=player_detailpage

[risveglio]

It seems that the US is getting less and less shy about appearing as socialist as it is and always has been.

I love Canadians with public health care that give 25% of their national income to the queen...

in a Nation that prides itself as one nation under God why would anyone not believe they should take care of the less fortunate...

call it socialist like your banker masters program you to say...

we call it being humane...

But if you believe in God and want to take care of the less fortunate, that should be done by the individual. It is wrong, morally and I would assume in the eye of God to use force to take from one person to give to another, no matter how much that one person has.

[modwiz]

It seems that the US is getting less and less shy about appearing as socialist as it is and always has been.

There is nothing remotely socialist about Obamacare and it is something our media regurgitates for the unthinking to vomit out yet again. Obamacare is pure monopolist wet dream.

Socialist?? I am almost struck dumb by this.

Obamacare is sheer criminality in service to the robber barons. It is rape.

[Rocky_Shorz]

It seems that the US is getting less and less shy about appearing as socialist as it is and always has been.

I love Canadians with public health care that give 25% of their national income to the queen...

in a Nation that prides itself as one nation under God why would anyone not believe they should take care of the less fortunate...

call it socialist like your banker masters program you to say...

we call it being humane...

But if you believe in God and want to take care of the less fortunate, that should be done by the individual. It is wrong, morally and I would assume in the eye of God to use force to take from one person to give to another, no matter how much that one person has.

you give offerings in church to help the less fortunate, many feel required to give 10% of their income...

but in healthcare, paying 3% of your salary is the same as most are spending on insurance...

for upper incomes, they will still want private insurance so won't be paying the 3%

bankers took $850B and turned it into $30 Trillion in derivatives...

why are bankers allowed to do what our government isn't?


because bankers are above the law...


everyone that isn't a banker... is a socialist... ;)

[risveglio]

Like government has not been helping the bankers rob us blind.? Isn't mostly governments fault that most of us even know what a billion is? And, isn't both the government and the bankers that would be more than happy to just make your above statement also be true in 25 years but instead it will be $850T into $30Q? And for the average man 10% of his salary is still only going to be around $10.

I do not think this health care bill is going to help many people. I think we will find that there will be plenty of unintended consequences and health quality will drop dramatically along with availability. I think the only people we will of ended up helping with this bill is the health insurance companies, big pharma, and government. It is just the reality of government, everything they attempt to do gets more expensive, expands, leads to misuse of power and simply does not work.

Now back to God. I would think God wants you to help the less fortunate. I would think God would want you to convince your neighbor to help the less fortunate. I would think God would want you to preach it to the world to help the less fortunate. But, I am quite sure from the scripture I have read that God would not want you to use force to make your neighbor help the less fortunate.

Evan an atheist gets it

"It’s amazing to me how many people think that voting to have the government give poor people money is compassion. Helping poor and suffering people is compassion. Voting for our government to use guns to give money to help poor and suffering people is immoral self-righteous bullying laziness.

People need to be fed, medicated, educated, clothed, and sheltered, and if we’re compassionate we’ll help them, but you get no moral credit for forcing other people to do what you think is right. There is great joy in helping people, but no joy in doing it at gunpoint." - Penn Gillet

[Rocky_Shorz]

well the 3% is your healthcare costs, not to pay for the poor, they are already insured, this is your part in covering your family...

no gun to anyone's head, you are setting aside 3% of what you make for the day you need help, may not be today, or next year, it might be 20 years away...

now, that 3% given to a Banker turns into 300%

what if Bankers weren't allowed to create derivatives unless they paid into the health care fund?

a 10% tax on the $240 Trillion created in the last year would pay off the National Debt and fund health care...

bet you never hear that move through congress, but it is the answer if this madness is to continue...

stop trying to stop the direction health care is moving and get the spot lights on the criminals of the Federal reserve, America is ready to lose the ball and chain...

[risveglio]

As the law is written, there is a gun to you head. And the fact is that health care is moving in the wrong direction. If something is not done to remove the government from health care then costs will continue to rise, quality will continue to drop and some day some bureaucrat in Washington will be making the decision on who gets the critical surgery or the right medicine.

Hate the bankers all you want but they are only playing by the rules set by the awful government. You want quality healthcare, get the government out of the way.

[eileenrose]

Here's what happens, how often I don't know (but lately the rumors are flying that this is commonplace occurence now), with socialized medicine (please note how many people at this hospital lied. I count 5 plus individuals....nurses, orderlys and doctors (in training?...didn't understand the term used)...pretty much anyone on that floor lied to protect themselves.

This is from 2009 (the case), just posted on David Icke's site.

title: "Patient dying of thirst rang 999: Inquest hears of mother's fury at nurses who neglected son"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167643/Patient-dying-thirst-rang-999-Inquest-hears-mothers-fury-nurses-neglected-son.html#ixzz1ziYR4xSI


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167643/Patient-dying-thirst-rang-999-Inquest-hears-mothers-fury-nurses-neglected-son.html

[RedeZra]

You know how contagious laughter can be? Wait til a small but vocal group just starts publicly laughing at the authority this select group seems to think they still have. Hell, I think they may even start laughing themselves, it might just be the kind of relief they are looking for.


i think they are laughing already


http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/media/blogs/blog/37/The-political-elite-37.jpg



about obamacare

the punch within its pages

is the chip implant

or Mark of the Beast



Ay3Al1EDdXY

[eileenrose]

Here is the latest article on the matter from Brother Nathanael (who I love...you can see quite a few interesting stories/videos/articles on his website...he quite cheerful...for what he does/promote....I mean I'd be a depressed person if I covered as much conspiracy as he does...between lunch and dinner...)

ObamaCare…
Chief Justice Roberts Is A Traitor
By Brother Nathanael Kapner, Copyright 2012

http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=735

snip


A TAX ON ‘DISSENT’ is now the law of the land in the United States of Amerika due to Chief Justice John Roberts voting to uphold ObamaCare.

Never before in the history of Amerika has a tax been levied on a decision made by an American citizen. And “bizarre” is not quite the word to define this unprecedented tax.

More accurately, what Roberts has bequeathed to the youth of Amerika is the quashing of all legitimate DISSENT by IMPOSING A TAX on any American citizen who protests against what the Jewish-run Congress demands he or she should do.

In a 5-4 vote ushering in the totalitarian-inspired ObamaCare, Roberts sided with the 4 Jews who sit on Amerika’s highest bench: Elena Kagan, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, and Sonia Sotomayor.

Rather than recuse herself due to her involvement in promoting ObamaCare during her tenure as Solicitor General, Kagan and her co-religionists voted to solidify the centralization of Jewish power by yet another Federal encroachment on the American citizen’s autonomy.

And John Roberts, in his egoism to show off just how very “clever” he is by morphing a penalty into a tax, sided with Jewry’s ultimate agenda: The enslavement of the Goyim through Federal centralization usurping States’ rights.

And what is even weirder, Roberts wrote BOTH opinions on ObamaCare…a very strange treason indeed.

end snip

source: Rense

Run, Nathanael, Run (like Born Free).....or for those that miss the joke

Go, Nathanael, go!

[eileenrose]

another good article. I've been searching for articles with easy to read stats. ie. what is actually going to occur. This one is aimed at small business and how they are responding (to this debacle).

title: Small Business Assault from Obamacare

http://www.batr.org/negotium/070412.html

snip


Hold on to your socks, the part time hiring of employees will become the new normal. The biggest prohibitive hit against job creation is in full motion. The consequences from Obamacare place a drag on the economy that is undeniable. This mugging of small business will guarantee that the primary engine of employment will sputter and knock, as the federal government forces higher and higher taxes on the last semblance of free enterprise.

Do not ignore the significance of this seminal moment. Forget about any economic recovery on Main Street. The unemployment stats will be stuck in a permanent loop, as the gross domestic product stagnates, at best. The more likelihood is that the characterized "double dip" recession will experience a full-blown depression. Government’s response will inflate prices in a feeble attempt to stave off deflation retractions.
Ponder the fallout of this escalated assault on the middle class. Larry Kudlow portrays in John Roberts Is a Super-Taxer the Supreme Court ruling as a dangerous precedent.

"The Roberts court has served up a "tax mandate" that is more powerful than the still-limited Commerce Clause regulatory mandate. Roberts has created a huge new loophole. Instead of new purchase mandates, we'll have new purchase tax mandates.

Americans for Tax Reform estimates that Obamacare contains 20 new or higher taxes on American families and small businesses. Investor's Business Daily says this comes to a $675 billion tax hike over the next decade."

Watch the video of Stephen Moore, Senior Economics Writer with the Wall Street Journal, explaining that nearly 75% of Obamacare costs will fall on the backs of those Americans making less than $120,000 a year.

How Will The Supreme Court’s Decision To Uphold Obamacare Affect Small Businesses And Job Creation?, confronts the consequences of approving the tax mandate.

Beginning in 2014, the "Employer Responsibility" provision would require employers with 50 or more workers to provide health coverage.

Critics say it could hurt small businesses that have more than 50 workers and can't afford to offer health care coverage. Moreover, it could curb hiring among companies that have fewer than 50 employees.

Also, "A lesser-known provision of Obamacare penalizes small businesses for hiring more than 25 employees, said Ben Piper, President of Ben Piper Consulting LLC. "Small businesses that have 25 or fewer employees and offer health care insurance will receive a 35 percent tax credit under the law."

end snip

[eileenrose]

Last article for today

http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/cliff-kuang/design-innovation/infographic-day-how-bad-us-healthcare

title: Infographic of the Day: How Bad Is U.S. Health Care?
It is just one paragraph and a easy to read graph. It shows the cost on average for the various countries and the US cost of health care (per person). We don't even fit on the charts!

This is the real issue. And I've seen it in my own hospital bills. They went from $500 in 2000 to $2000 in 2010 for the same ER procedure...which takes a doctor 1 minute and an orderly 2 min to do...and an actual time in the ER of 45 minutes thereabouts. Who can afford $2000 (I didn't pay that much due to medicare)? Who indeed.

[Kindred]

The pushers of this bill (primarily Democrats) characterized it as a 'mandate' and NOT a tax, and was the reason it was started in the Senate. Note that ALL Tax Bills MUST Originate in the House of Representatives.

However... the Supreme Court upheld this piece of legislation BECAUSE IT IS A TAX...

Therefore, it is completely Null and VOID, as, since it's a TAX... but it Did Not Originate in the House.

You Can't have your cake and eat it too!

Unfortunately, these fools don't care, as it Does Not Apply To Them, and it's another way to take from the 'have-nots', and Give to the Haves.

How Sad...

In Unity, Peace, and Love

[Azt]

Obama using kids for selling OBAMACARE ... Unbelievable.

1LuNBaSRRes

[sheme]

Has anyone considered the possibility that this is Obama the man -preventing a national disaster? What if the 'tptw' was about to launch their virus to reduce the population, wouldn't it be fairer if everyone had Health insurance? Could this forced health plan stay 'tptw' hand -if 'tptw' was to be forced to pay the bill after all, due to the fact they own big pharma and the insurance companies and the laboratories that make the diseases in the first place.

From here it looks like you are getting your own National Health service, and like here you are asked to pay for it, like UK if you are poor you don't pay. No big deal.

[mountain_jim]

From there you are not seeing it right at all, in my informed opinion.

My (poor) insurance was cancelled, and the replacement more than doubled in price, to over $1000 a month, which will likely force me to have non-qualifying or no insurance and pay fine.

True national health insurance would have been either extending medicare to younger folks, or the 'public/universal option', and cutting out the profits of the insurance companies, which wrote the bill to protect their interests and bought congress to insure their position in the future. The public option never had a chance, as the committee Bauchus chaired made sure. Once they knew some kind of bill would happen, AHIP (the insurance lobby industry) made sure they both helped write the bill and controlled what could pass, to insure no real nationalized health care.

I predict this law and Obamcare is going to implode, with more folks like me refusing to go along.

[Azt]

If Obama is really thinking about its people in America, the Obamacare would be free.
If he bailed out the banks , why not support the American citizens by giving free healthcare for all.

[AutumnW]

It seems that the US is getting less and less shy about appearing as socialist as it is and always has been.

Where do the profits from the health insurance go? In order to be 'socialist', they would have to go back to the govt. Sadly, they are enriching the few, insurers and pharmeceutical companies at the eventual expense of the taxpayer.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


From there you are not seeing it right at all, in my informed opinion.

My (poor) insurance was cancelled, and the replacement more than doubled in price, to over $1000 a month, which will likely force me to have non-qualifying or no insurance and pay fine.

True national health insurance would have been either extending medicare to younger folks, or the 'public option', and cutting out the profits of the insurance companies, which wrote the bill to protect their interests and bought congress to insure their position in the future. The public option never had a chance, as the committee Bauchus chaired made sure. Once they knew some kind of bill would happen, AHIP (the insurance lobby industry) made sure they both helped write the bill and controlled what could pass, to insure no real nationalized health care.

I predict this law and Obamcare is going to implode, with more folks like me refusing to go along.

When they eliminated the universal option, I knew it was doomed.

[jagman]

I do not like the idea of giving something away for nothing, although as a society
we must have saftey nets for the poor and sick. We also must have some kind of
requirements built into these saftey nets encouraging those who can return to
work. Help them find jobs, give them training. Otherwise were building a culture
of dependence. It's a very delicate balancing act. Obamacare has failed and i'm
just not talking about the website. Over 5 million people have lost their insurance
and the last count on people being insured on obamacare was 26 thousand for the
website and 79 thousand signed up threw state exchanges. They need 7 million
young healthy people to make it work or insurance companies have already stated
that premiums will go up across the board.
"This will be the death of liberalism" -Charles Krauthammer

[jackovesk]

I'll go out on a limb here and say...

Don't ask an Aussie for an Opinion on Obamacare...

Most can't get there heads around the fact the we have a semi-socialized Healthcare system, so why can't America..?

They all too often forget that there is a Massive difference between a population of only 23 million as against 320 million...:yes4:

Hence the 'Nightmare' that has fallen onto the American people who have had to deal with LIE after LIE after LIE & False Flag after False Flag after False Flag after, not to forget (ALL) the End-less Wars...Then...

Barry wants to throw in Obamacare which legislation was written by the Big Insurance & Big Pharma Corporations and he wants you all to (ACCEPT IT) with no cumbrance whilst lovingly accepting your Serfdom with a (Smile on your Dial) to boot...:faint:

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/cont_dees.jpg

PS - With the US Economy in (Implosion) mode, Obamacare should be renamed...


"OBAMACRUNCH"..!!! :usa2:

[mountain_jim]

A current, accurate synopses:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/11/18/the-obamacare-disaster/



November 18, 2013

The Poison of Party Loyalty

The Obamacare Disaster

by NORMAN SOLOMON


Four years ago, countless Democratic leaders and allies pushed for passage of Barack Obama’s complex healthcare act while arguing that his entire presidency was at stake. The party hierarchy whipped the Congressional Progressive Caucus into line, while MoveOn and other loyal groups stayed in step along with many liberal pundits.

Lauding the president’s healthcare plan for its structure of “regulation, mandates, subsidies and competition,” New York Times columnist Paul Krugman wrote in July 2009 that the administration’s fate hung in the balance: “Knock away any of the four main pillars of reform, and the whole thing will collapse — and probably take the Obama presidency down with it.” Such warnings were habitual until Obamacare became law eight months later.

Meanwhile, some progressives were pointing out that — contrary to the right-wing fantasy of a “government takeover of healthcare” — Obama’s Affordable Care Act actually further enthroned for-profit insurance firms atop the system. As I wrote at the time, “The continued dominance of the insurance industry is the key subtext of the healthcare battle that has been raging in Washington. But that dominance is routinely left out of the news media’s laser-beam concentration on whether a monumental healthcare law will emerge to save Obama’s presidency.”

Today, in terms of healthcare policy, the merits and downsides of Obamacare deserve progressive debate. But at this point there’s no doubt it’s a disaster in political terms — igniting the Mad Hatter Tea Party’s phony populism, heightening prospects for major right-wing electoral gains next year and propagating the rancid notion that the government should stay out of healthcare.

That ominous takeaway notion was flagged days ago on the PBS NewsHour by commentator Mark Shields, who worried aloud that “this is beyond the Obama administration. If this goes down, if … the Affordable Care Act is deemed a failure, this is the end — I really mean it — of liberal government, in the sense of any sense that government as an instrument of social justice, an engine of economic progress… Time and again, social programs have made the difference in this country. The public confidence in that will be so depleted, so diminished, that I really think the change — the equation of American politics changes.”

At this pivotal, historic, teachable moment, progressives should not leave the messaging battle about the ACA to right wingers and Obama loyalists. While critiquing the law for its entanglement with the profit-voracious insurance industry, we should fight for quality healthcare for everyone — definitely including the people who live in states where right-wing officials are blocking expansion of Medicaid coverage. (In a recent Nation article, historian Rick Perlstein cited a grim example of a chronic mentality: “the policy wizards in the Obama White House build a Rube Goldberg healthcare law that relies on states to expand Medicaid and create healthcare exchanges, and then are utterly blindsided when red-state legislatures and governors decline.”) We should challenge all efforts to deny the human right of healthcare.

What we should not be doing is what MoveOn.org is now doing — proclaiming that the Obamacare law is just fine. In a November 14 email blast, subject-lined “Obamacare in serious trouble,” MoveOn acknowledged that the rollout “has been badly botched” but flatly declared: “Obviously, the law itself is still really good.”

Huh?

The problems with Obamacare involve far more than simply bad website coding. They’re bound up in the enormous complexity of the law’s design, wrapped around a huge corporate steeplechase for maximizing profits. As a Maine physician, Philip Caper, wrote this fall, the ACA “is far too complicated and therefore too expensive to manage, full of holes, will be applied unevenly and unfairly, be full of unintended consequences, and be easily exploited by those looking to make a quick buck.” The ACA is so complicated because it has been so relentlessly written for the benefit of — and largely written by — insurance companies.

Along the way, the “individual mandate” cornerstone of the ACA — required by government yet actually enriching the private insurance industry — is a tremendous political boost to demagogic GOP leaders. I’m not engaging in hindsight here. Like many others, I saw this coming before the ACA became law, writing in March 2010: “On a political level, the mandate provision is a massive gift to the Republican Party, all set to keep on giving to the right wing for many years. With a highly intrusive requirement that personal funds and government subsidies be paid to private corporations, the law would further empower right-wing populists who want to pose as foes of government ‘elites’ bent on enriching Wall Street.”

Obamacare is a mess largely because it builds a revamped healthcare system around the retrenched and extended power of insurance companies — setting back prospects for real healthcare reform for a decade or more. Egged on by corporate media and corporate politicians, much of the public will blame higher premiums on government intervention and not on the greedy insurance companies which, along with Big Pharma, helped write the law in the Obama White House and on Capitol Hill.

It should now be painfully obvious that Obamacare’s little helpers, dutifully reciting White House talking points in 2009 and early 2010, were helping right-wing bogus populism to gather steam. Claiming that the Obama presidency would sink without signing into law its “landmark” healthcare bill, many a progressive worked to throw the president a rope; while ostensibly attached to a political life preserver, the rope was actually fastened to a huge deadweight anvil.

In the process, the political choreography included a chorus of statements by Congressional Progressive Caucus members before ultimate passage of the Affordable Care Act. Having previously removed the words “single payer” and “Medicare for all” from their oratorical vocabulary while retaining the laudatory language — and after later excising the words “public option” in a similar way — those legislators still pretended that passage of the ACA would be an unalloyed positive triumph. Like the president, they resolutely oversold Obamacare and made believe it would bring about an excellent healthcare system.

With such disingenuous sales pitches four years ago, President Obama and his Democratic acolytes did a lot to create the current political mess engulfing Obamacare — exaggerating its virtues while pulling out the stops to normalize denial about its real drawbacks. That was a bad approach in 2009. It remains a bad approach today.

Norman Solomon is co-founder of RootsAction.org and founding director of the Institute for Public Accuracy. His books include “War Made Easy: How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death.” Information about the documentary based on the book is at www.WarMadeEasyTheMovie.org.

[Cidersomerset]

I don't know much about Obama care and its up to the American people to decide.

I am humanist probably leaning more to the left than right as a working class man.

Yes 'Class' its still alive and well here & around the world. The important thing for
me about the NHS is it is free for all when needed, even if you have not worked and
not paid your NI deductions from your pay packet. Before 1948 it was a lottery and
the poor and lower classes suffered much more than the middle and upper
class's.obviously.

The same class structure is alive and well in the US whether you live in the Bronx
or The Hamptons . I know many conservative Americans see it as charity and
against their ethics and other reasons, but a equal health care for emergency and life
threatening illness' and operations and some other conditions, should be a minimal
goal imo .

Of course there are abuses and waste , but that is secondary to the principle
everyone should have access to first class health serviceif and when needed.
Whether you still want to pay for private care is a separate argument, we have
private insurance and hospitals on a smaller scale here to. Ironically manned on the
whole by the same surgeons !!!




NHS allocations for 2013/14

Overall, NHS England has a budget of £95.6 billion to deliver the mandate. Within this overall funding,
it has allocated £65.6 billion to local health economy commissioners: that is, CCGs and local authorities.
This represents 2.6% growth compared to equivalent 2012/13 baselines – a real term increase of 0.6%
at a time of limited resources.

http://www.england.nhs.uk/allocations-2013-14/

The population of England not the UK 56.100,000 & aprox 3 million for wales as they are combined with
the English NHS I think ,Scotland being separate.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/england-population-2013/
http://worldpopulationreview.com/wales-population-2013/

The US population is 316,364,000...... 2013
http://www.worldpopulationstatistics.com/us-population-2013/

So that is over 5 times the population of England & Wales.so
it would equate to aprox £ 500 Billion that's aprox $ 805 Billion.
An exact comparison cannot be made for many reasons but gives
an idea of the current UK spend.It would be more complicated in
the US with all the pension plans etc, and some of this would be
the responsibility of individual States, this is just info & my thoughts.


According to this chart the fed already allocate $ 523 Billion to medicare..

http://www.aaas.org/spp/rd/fy2013/FedPie.gif

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=2013+Federal+Spending+in+dollars&id=021B337179AF7ED19E13F6CBC5F9CE1E082C1552&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=439E4EB6A77B9943CD8EDDEAC0BF4A249DD84130&selectedIndex=3

My figures are probably not accurate when taking other local
circumstances and vastness of the US compared to UK....

But the principle every citizen should be treated equally
in the casualty dept or operation theatre should be a
basic human right imo....


Or you could build more of these...The first Gerald R. Ford-class aircraft carrier

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/CVN-78_Artist_Image.jpg/775px-CVN-78_Artist_Image.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CVN-78_Artist_Image.jpg

Construction began on components of CVN-78 in the spring of 2007,[33] and is
planned to finish in 2015. It is under construction at Newport News Shipbuilding, a
division of Huntington Ingalls Industries (formerly Northrop Grumman Shipbuilding)
in Newport News, Virginia, the only shipyard in the United States capable of
building nuclear-powered aircraft carriers. In 2005, it was estimated to cost at least
$8 billion excluding the $5 billion spent on research and development (though that
was not expected to be representative of the cost of future members of the class).[
11] A 2009 report said that the Ford would cost $14 billion including research and
development, and the actual cost of the carrier itself would be $9 billion.[34] The
daily operating cost is estimated at $7 million.[35]

A total of three carriers have been authorized for construction, but if the Nimitz-
class carriers and Enterprise were to be replaced on a one-for-one basis, eleven
carriers would be required over the life of the program. However, the last Nimitz-
class aircraft carrier is not scheduled to be decommissioned until 2058.

In a speech on 6 April 2009, then Secretary of Defense Robert Gates announced
that the program would shift to a five-year building program so as to place it on
a "more fiscally sustainable path". Such a measure would result in ten carriers by 2040.[36]

In 2013 a GAO report cast doubts on the delivery schedule.[37][38

[Jake]

I hesitate to post. My brother has damn near disowned me based on deep feelings about 'redistribution of wealth' politics. (You wouldn't be able to tell hem from Rush Limbaugh, if you were to hear his political view) I have not the same path. Now that it is law,, I have no choice but to be considered Socialist, by every single person that has to pay extra taxes... This is only the beginning, folks. What happens if I show up in the E.R. and don't have my 'papers' to show that I am a proper citizen by way of Obamacare??? Right now, NOTHING... Just wait.. Nobody knew that it was all a ruse to,,,, a) Massively take over and own the 'funnels' of wealth that pay into the INSURANCE (snake oil) industry. b) Massively take over and enforce the INSANE cost of healthcare. There is no going back now. c) Impose a web of taxation with broad definitions of what is considered 'medical supplies' (at least 2.9% taxes on fishing poles and motors for boats at Cabelas for 'medical equipment') d) The impose taxation of 'penalties' for those who do not legally conform!!!!!!!!!!!! e) Status Quo,,,, nobody ever talked about the PRICE OF HEALTCHARE!! Just how to pay for it... Now the price will NEEEEVVVVEEEEERRR be an issue again....

America loses.....

Now, by law, I have to sign up for AHCA. And by law,,, I am a socialist by many of my friends and family... Even my brother,,, Socialist??? That is like being the devil to Alabama Republicans....

What do I think? I think it is the politics of DEVIDING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. If it were the politics of 'redistribution of wealth', we would be 'redistributing' the wealth of corperations,,,, HEAVILY.

It has become immoral to support the Unites States Government. As an American, I am ashamed,,, My own brother has disowned me,, over OBAMACARE!!!!!!


Nobody addressed the issues about the cost of healthcare,,,,

Jake.

[pyrangello]

There has been wealthy and poor in societies for thousands of years, everything has it's check and balances sooner or later. However , free will gives us the ability to become successful should we choose to put the time and effort in to make that happen. Everybody has their own definition of successful. For me it's the ability to not worry so much about money, create jobs for people to support their families and donate money for many special causes from animals to disasters to people in need that are less fortunate.

In my 20's and 30's while my buddies were all out partying I choose to work til midnight on whatever jobs I could get, now at 50 that's starting to pay off. But that was my choice. If I had grown up in a system where wealth was confiscated once achieved, there is no incentive !

[GreenGuy]

I've said this in another thread, but I feel it's worth repeating: we do not have health care in the US. Instead, we have disease management.

Disease is not the natural state of any organism. Disease is caused by something, and the crux of health care is prevention, with amelioration as a second "Plan B" backup. Disease is caused by poor nutrition, poisoning, damaged immune systems. If we had actual health care, very few people would get sick. Doctors would be lonely, and pharmaceutical companies would not be the massive financial parasites that they are.

All of this is no accident. Our nation doesn't wait for people to get sick, before moving in with pills and surgeries. They're proactive, putting poison in the food, the water, the air. It is illegal to promote natural substances for healing. And Obamacare does nothing whatsoever to address any of this.

The only solution I know is to learn about nutrition, grow as much of your own food and medicine as you can, and avoid doctors and commercial medicine (including the stuff on the shelves at CVS) whenever possible.

[Crystine]

It is very quiet out there. Obamacare is upon us. There were warnings from many people.
I can't say much except the cost of an office visit with my doc went from $79.00 last year, to $160.00 this year. Holy cow.

[GreenGuy]

We've desperately needed healthcare reform in this country for a long time. It's kind of devastating to see a program like this pushed through that simply panders to the worst elements of what has caused our healthcare crisis in the first place. On the other hand there's a pretty good chance that the whole thing will be repealed as soon as Obama leaves office.