Jordan Maxwell debunked

[Unified Serenity]

I know, another guru and truth "researcher" debunked. It's not easy critically examining facts, but things are what they are whether I like the facts or not.

I have enjoyed many of Jordan Maxwell’s presentations. He is quite intelligent and engaging with a pretty funny sense of humor. I have learned quite a few things from him, but I have come across some extra information that reveals how he is working very hard to bring people into this New World Order in the Light of Lucifer. One he most reveres and appreciates of teachers is Helena Blavatsky of Theosophy fame. It is now quite apparent to me that his scholarship is very lacking, but his ability to apparently outright lie or misinform is what I would deem near sociopathic (http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html).


I ask you to avail yourself of this very straight forward presentation, and ask yourself if you are a real fan of his, has he been truthful with you? Why would you follow anyone who has not? I had this on another thread about how the teaching that Israel is really Isis, Amen Ra, and El is not correct. I think it deserves it's own thread, and let the chips fall where they may.



eKBCEBfIdCw



The video description:

Debunking Jordan Maxwell, The Movie Jordanus Maximus From http://nowheretorun.podomatic.com This is a film detailing the many mistakes and outright lies of Jordan Maxwell. After months of research and checking Jordan Maxwell's "facts" I found him to be a very deceptive and manipulative teacher. In addition to debunking many of his claims this films looks at his motivations and associations and shows that his philosophy is exactly that of the So called New World Order although its very cleverly hidden.


You will find his devotion to Theosophy includes naming Himself "Jordanus Maximus" I used to believe everything this man said. Not anymore. Does the sun die on the cross of the zodiac? Is the compass rose an acronym for "NEWS" Does Christ mean "oil"? Does anoint mean "sex"? Is God merely a volcano? Does the ark of the covenant represent the feminine ability to give life? Did King Solomon exist? Is the name Solomon derived from Sol OM On Does OM mean The Sun? Do we call turning on lights "on" because of Heliopolis? Does Solomon's temple represent sex? Was Manna in the bible psychedelic mushrooms? Where is the mushroom painting? Does mushroom art in the 1200 speak for Christianity? Does Judaism come from Saturn Worship? Did the Egyptians say the sun was setting because of their god Set? Does Yahweh or YHWH mean the building up and releasing of dynamic energy? And is it associated with sex?


Did Jordan Maxwell get His name from Blavatsky "Jordanus Maximus" and why is he lying about it? Jordan Maxwell calls for a new world order He says God communicates with us only through symbols He says the non-human/human hybrids are here and that they have a "divine right" to rule over us and that he is smart enough to accept it. He also says that these hybrids are going to reward him for understanding their symbols.


Some history about the Nephilim and the sons of god Jordan Maxwell describes his encounter with aliens Jordan Maxwell explains how he told these entities that he would do their will as long as the didn't come to him in his room or "abduct him" And he explains how this deal was later confirmed and they would "channel" through him. He describes his uncle and family in the Vatican and the mob and says they are one in the same.

[trenairio]

[edit][edit][edit]

[Jeffrey]

This criticism is from Chris White of Youtube, a christian fundamentalist, who tries to debunk alternative researchers that don't agree with his beliefs in Christ

Sorry. So the guy has a bone to pick, it doesn't mean he didn't do his homework.

[watchZEITGEISTnow]

and 126 dislikes... one thing about the 'tube' is that the likes/dislikes are usually spot on.

I love Maxy - he rocks!

Re: Christians/fundos - we have to bridge the gap by finding common ground. More of what we agree on , rather that what we do not agree on. Start with love, no war, peace on Earth - they all agree on this - it's a small start. But debating or arguing with religious blind faithful does no good. If anything it backs them into a corner that affirms their need for religious dogma.
:)

[Bill Ryan]

This criticism is from Chris White of Youtube, a christian fundamentalist, who tries to debunk alternative researchers that don't agree with his beliefs in Christ.

Chris White has also made a companion video debunking David Icke.

[Jeffrey]

It's probably because David Icke tried to debunk the historical Jesus Christ, and I'm sure David Icke's research had nothing to do with him realizing he wasn't Jesus Christ.

[Carmen]

Right!! Who else can we bring down today? Must be someone else out there who we will all just love to hate! Cripes this place is a negative, attacking 'free for all' at the moment.

[SKAWF]

This criticism is from Chris White of Youtube, a christian fundamentalist, who tries to debunk alternative researchers that don't agree with his beliefs in Christ.

i thought i recognised the voice.

also, i'm fairly sure that at no point has jorden said that christ was anointed with sexual fluid.
in fact i think i got it from one of his vids or lectures that its the fat of the nile crocodile they used.

and then to try and debunk the middle syllable of solomon!,
by saying that OM isnt related to the sun is a bit much.

i rate the info that maxwell pus out at about 85-90% reliable .
he did his research the hard way, and for years.

there's not enough in the above video to discredit a lifes work imo.

steve

PS i watched the vid all the way through

[woodshreder]

....
After nearly 6 years of being a member of the PC and PA family...I have come to the conclusion these once special sites shared by those of us who shared a determined purpose, have been overthrown by a few provacatuers by using a simple divide and conquer strategy . The same type of souls who have kept the war drums beating for hundreds and hundreds of years seem to have infiltrated us and pushed some of the best minds away from this forum. I think we need to not engage these souls for they are not worth our time or effort It just turns positive energy into negative .Think about it next time someone provokes you into a response
.......Peace Always Peace.....

[Unified Serenity]

And, I wonder how many of you who are offended by this thread watched the video I shared. I doubt any of you did. Jordan Maxwell most definitely did make those claims, it's in the video, and so much more of his claims which are outright twisting of facts. If you can't be bothered to watch the video and deal with the facts therein then you are just reacting emotionally to something you think without regard to information given. One cannot discuss intelligently what one is ignorant of.

Again, facts are facts. I might not agree with everything this guy has ever said, I haven't watched it all, but this video is very revealing. I do not think you can accuse him of lying, he is using Maxwell's own presentations and not just snippets out of context.

[21CC]

I have learned a lot from, and my interest in specific topics piqued by, J-Max. Like anything, take from the experience what works for you and leave the rest behind.

[D-Day]

I haven't watched the OP video yet, so I can't/won't comment on that at this stage.

However, I just wanted to chime in and say that Jordan's consistent assertion that TPTB have total control/dominion over humanity and we are all destined to suffer their wrath never sat well with me.

I find his message and take on things to be very disheartening and disempowering.

I feel he is misguided and has misjudged/underestimated humanity's ability to overcome adversity.

Peronally, I hope his dire predictions regarding the future of humanity are not manifested into reality.

I also suspect he was infulenced by "negative forces" who showed him a future timeline and convinced him it was set in stone when in fact it was simply one of many potentialities.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

I look forward to the day when I have done work that is significant enough to be debunked by Mr. White. How else will I know that I am on the right track?

Now then, back to reading Blavatsky.

[Unified Serenity]

I have posted another thread dealing with MUFON and their discovery on how to stop alien abductions. I am sure it will upset some as well, which is not my intention. I wrote this on that thread, and feel it is appropriate on this thread as well:


Now, you can watch the above video and hear the facts presented that call into question much of what Jorden says. I do not like upsetting people. I know many here on Avalon would find that quite ironic because many do get upset by my views. It is not my goal in sharing my heart and views to upset people. I care about truth, and when I find information that seems worth sharing like the above video, then I will share it despite the fact that I know people do not like to have their apple cart upset. This thread on debunking Jordan Maxwell is not to just stir trouble. It's to examine what he teaches and put it in context of real research as given very succinctly and clearly which shows how tricky a wordsmith Maxwell really is. It's all factual, and people are already complaining that I have some agenda to cause disruption. Let me ask you this. You try to wake people up or help people and complain they refuse to look at facts about various conspiracies. They think you are nuts. They ridicule you for believing on one thing or another. I am in that same position here with those of you who refuse to examine the information I come across and share.

You are digging in your heals, making judgements about me, and not even examining the information with an open mind. No, your mind is already made up. So and so is a christian, or so and so debunked David Icke so this must be wrong. I don't agree with everything David Icke says, but that does not mean I can't gain knowledge from his experience and what he shares. I just listen carefully and use discernment for what does not ring true so I can examine it myself, and not just take some man or woman's views as gospel. I am not afraid of information because I believe the truth always wins out. How sure of your views and beliefs are you if you are too afraid to hear what is presented? It seems to me that you are just a little afraid there might be truth in it. Just like the sleepers who refuse to look at 9/11, Illuminati, Vaccines, GM foods, chem trails, you are afraid that maybe someone you hold in high esteem might not be all you thought. That is not my problem. That is for you to wrestle with. If Bill Ryan asks me to leave the forum because I present information that makes you uncomfortable, I shall. Until that time, I will participate and share what I find. We can discuss it politely, but please don't get into accusations and such. If you want to discuss the information, by all means. I find the emotional attacks are more revealing about those who do it than some perceived agenda some think I have. I post on a lot of topics and start threads on different subjects. I think my track record speaks for itself. I am a truth seeker, and I have no sacred cows except to treat one another with respect and due respect shall be given until you throw monkey poo in my area, I will give your poo back as politely as possible. Sound fair?

[Unified Serenity]

I have learned a lot from, and my interest in specific topics piqued by, J-Max. Like anything, take from the experience what works for you and leave the rest behind.

I agree with that, and I too have learned a lot from Maxwell, but I also learned tonight that sometimes I did not listen to him carefully enough. I seek truth and I don't care where it comes from as long as it proves out. That is why when I saw this video, I realized everything is not quite as it seems in his presentations.

[seantimberwolf]

I did not even bother watching the video i believe what i know to be true to me.

As for his david icke video it borders on embarresing, most of these FUNDOS (great word btw)
are embarresing to there faith i happen to be pagan so i guess my view is one thats quite negative of the church, but im almost certain that christ is looking down on his "children" saying

"guys you got it all wrong, come on!"

[centreoflight]

I have posted another thread dealing with MUFON and their discovery on how to stop alien abductions. I am sure it will upset some as well, which is not my intention. I wrote this on that thread, and feel it is appropriate on this thread as well:


Now, you can watch the above video and hear the facts presented that call into question much of what Jorden says. I do not like upsetting people. I know many here on Avalon would find that quite ironic because many do get upset by my views. It is not my goal in sharing my heart and views to upset people. I care about truth, and when I find information that seems worth sharing like the above video, then I will share it despite the fact that I know people do not like to have their apple cart upset. This thread on debunking Jordan Maxwell is not to just stir trouble. It's to examine what he teaches and put it in context of real research as given very succinctly and clearly which shows how tricky a wordsmith Maxwell really is. It's all factual, and people are already complaining that I have some agenda to cause disruption. Let me ask you this. You try to wake people up or help people and complain they refuse to look at facts about various conspiracies. They think you are nuts. They ridicule you for believing on one thing or another. I am in that same position here with those of you who refuse to examine the information I come across and share.

You are digging in your heals, making judgements about me, and not even examining the information with an open mind. No, your mind is already made up. So and so is a christian, or so and so debunked David Icke so this must be wrong. I don't agree with everything David Icke says, but that does not mean I can't gain knowledge from his experience and what he shares. I just listen carefully and use discernment for what does not ring true so I can examine it myself, and not just take some man or woman's views as gospel. I am not afraid of information because I believe the truth always wins out. How sure of your views and beliefs are you if you are too afraid to hear what is presented? It seems to me that you are just a little afraid there might be truth in it. Just like the sleepers who refuse to look at 9/11, Illuminati, Vaccines, GM foods, chem trails, you are afraid that maybe someone you hold in high esteem might not be all you thought. That is not my problem. That is for you to wrestle with. If Bill Ryan asks me to leave the forum because I present information that makes you uncomfortable, I shall. Until that time, I will participate and share what I find. We can discuss it politely, but please don't get into accusations and such. If you want to discuss the information, by all means. I find the emotional attacks are more revealing about those who do it than some perceived agenda some think I have. I post on a lot of topics and start threads on different subjects. I think my track record speaks for itself. I am a truth seeker, and I have no sacred cows except to treat one another with respect and due respect shall be given until you throw monkey poo in my area, I will give your poo back as politely as possible. Sound fair?

Beloved Sister of Light,
you have a point there. I also got deceived by a so called guru. In India I learned that the demons have more knowledge than the gods. This is probably right to a certain point. I learned a lot from Jordan Maxwell, but would not exclude what you suspect about him. It is important to use discernment, specially when many friends and family members want to force us to belief something. On the other hand there is the "divide and rule" aspect. It is important to have good friends to trust and not let us divide by some difference of opinion.

Thank you
George

[D-Day]

I did not even bother watching the video i believe what i know to be true to me.

As for his david icke video it borders on embarresing, most of these FUNDOS (great word btw)
are embarresing to there faith i happen to be pagan so i guess my view is one thats quite negative of the church, but im almost certain that christ is looking down on his "children" saying

"guys you got it all wrong, come on!"

Ah, a modern day Pagan, good for you Sean.

I'm curious though, what led you to the conclusion that undertaking a faith in Paganism would be a good path to follow?

When and why did you decide to label yourself as 'a Pagan'?

Do you feel being a Pagan defines who you are and what you're about?

I often wonder why people feel the need to choose a religion and to have faith in something outside of themselves.

I guess the whole idea of religion just never made much sense to me for some reason.

Ever since I was born I've always been a strong believer in Daniel Day, I have A LOT of faith in him.

Throughout my life he's always had my back, always had my best interests at heart, always been there for me... I kinda like the guy ;)

I feel like I made the right choice for me, I guess you probably feel the same way too.

All the best :)

[jackovesk]

Jordan Maxwell debunked...?

I don't think 'Debunked' is the right choice of word..!:nono:

Let me give you the 'Average Internet Users' definition of the word 'Debunked'...

Hint - Its not like a Virus (False Positive) its more final than that...

It generally means some thing or some one is a Fake/Phony & (Full of Sh#t)

I think the 'Average Internet Users' definition does NOT apply one iota to Jordan Maxwell

Re: The 'Clip' which I have watched some time ago, does point out what appears to be some innacurate theories & research that has been (Hand-Picked) by a nemisis..? What's commonly known in the industry as a (HIT - PIECE)

It by no means has the 'Power' to banish Jordan Maxwell's (Full Body Of Work) into a black hole forever...:nono:

Jordan Maxwell has admitted he is by no means an Academic, but just a man who literally fell into the research of The Occult & Symbology by chance and association (Family)...

IMHO Jordan Maxwell is one of the 'Good Guys' :thumb: who is nearing his return home...

I can quite confidently say "NO WAY - Is JM a Shill for the NWO...:nono:

Why...?

a) Because he would'nt even think of doing it in the 1st place..!

&

b) If he was a NWO Shill, Why is he so Poor...?

What's he, the only NWO Shill in the World whose NOT making any $$$Money out of it...:pound:

More to the Contrary JM is Poor because of his fascination with the Occult & Symbology...:faint:

[GCS1103]

Hi, U.S.-

I agree with 21CC- take what you feel is true for you and reject what you don't find credible. I have researched for over 20 years the UFO phenomena and listened to many interviews, videos, live presentations and had personal conversations with those involved in this field. Jordan Maxwell, being one of those people. It is obvious that he has spent a good portion of his life studying his field, but that doesn't necessarily mean his conclusions are correct. I learned some interesting things from him, but based on other research I have personally done, my conclusions differ from his. We all have the right to agree or disagree with any of these people who present their case, so long as we research and study the subject to make an intelligent analysis. To say we "resonate" with someone, is not a basis to make an informed decision if we have not spent the time to look into what that person is purporting as "truth."

It is my opinion that some of the "truths" these "experts" are expounding on, are encouraged by entities/spirits that may not have our best interests at heart. To put it bluntly, there may be demonic forces involved that have guided some of these men and women in their work. I can use Steven Greer, as an example. Dr. Greer insists, without reservation, that ALL ET's are benevolent. He says this in all his seminars and interviews. All one needs to do is speak to a few abductees who have gone through hell and back to refute his claim. Where I once respected the work he did, I now put no trust in his claim that there are no negative ET's.

To have a difference of opinion on a forum such as this, is perfectly normal. I find our fellow members dig their heels in more than the average person who has no interest in these subjects. We all want to believe that we have found the "truth". In reality, none of us know for sure, what the "truth" really is. We can research, we can read and listen to people who have spent years working in their fields, but at the end of the day, no one here can lay claim to having all the answers. It's the proverbial rabbit hole- none of us have gone down far enough to come up and know, for sure, that we have all the facts.

Giving one's point of view, via videos, or whatever means, most certainly does not make them provocateurs. We, on this forum, don't all walk to the same beat. It's beneficial to listen to all points of view and then we can do our own digging to see what we come up with. I think Unified Serenity provides a good service here- she spends the time and energy to show other sides of those people we may like- or in some cases, put on a pedestal. I, personally, see that as a positive thing and hope she continues to add her knowledge and opinions to this forum.

[andrewgreen]

His overall message is negative, enough said.

[Lazlo]

Debunked? Shill? NWO tool? Revealer of truth and hidden secrets? All of the answers are too simple.

Jordan is interesting to listen to and makes some good points...he also draws some inappropriate conclusions. I have an annoying ability to remember facts and recall them instantly (my wife calls me the keeper of useless information, but she uses me like a google search ;) ) It's a very useful tool, both professionally and when doing my own "fun" research.

After stumbling upon Jordan's work, I made mental notes of quite a few things that jumped out at me, then took the time to double check my suppositions. I found that he does indeed make some leaps in logic that are simply not supportable.

So what do I do? I file his information away and use it as a resource. As I "learn" new information that either supports or contradicts his claims, I adjust my perceptions accordingly. The same thing goes for virtually every personality in the alternative community. As mentioned earlier, Greer falls into the same general category. As does Wilcock, Icke, and even our own dear Mr. Ryan. We are all just human, and any person would be mistaken to accept anything that they hear as "TRUTH." (big) TRUTH is unknowable, as we force realities to fit into our limited repetoire of categories. (little) truth is personal, and we all hold our own dearly.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

The problem is with the video-maker's (or the debunker's) intention. Here's what I mean:

Unified Serenity, I genuinely very much appreciate your passion, and integrity, and your let's-face-the-truth-whatever-it-might-be attitude.

But -- supposing I had an agenda to discredit you, or smear you, or somehow cause the readers here to be much more likely to ignore the value you add.

What I could easily do -- if I wanted to! -- is sift through your 2,700 posts, find some juicy out-of-context extracts, highlight the chosen ones, and find apparent contradictions, times when you had expressed yourself a little impulsively, or simply when you had something quite wrong (maybe quite some time ago).

Listing those, and with some clever presentation, I bet I could make you look like anything I wanted to. I could make you look like a troll, or a poor researcher, or simply stupid.

Or if I was a fan of your work, I could go the other way and make you look brilliant and incisive. This is the problem.

I know Jordan Maxwell personally, and in 2010 spent six straight weeks with him 24/7 (on his visit to Europe). I know he has some things wrong. I know he has misinterpretations of some of the linguistics behind certain terms, etc etc, and that he over-stresses those. I've talked with him about that.

But he's genuine, beaten-up, brave, wounded, exhausted, persistent, and has been an imperfect, heroic champion of almost all of the the causes we all stand for. See the tremendous video interview which Kerry did of him in Sept 2009 (http://projectcamelot.org/jordan_maxwell.html) -- one of her very, very best -- at the end of which Jordan was in tears, and after which (off-camera) Kerry simply could not speak.

Here is a man who devoted his life to a mission, and believed he had failed. These are the real issues. Not the details.

[GCS1103]

Debunked? Shill? NWO tool? Revealer of truth and hidden secrets? All of the answers are too simple.

Jordan is interesting to listen to and makes some good points...he also draws some inappropriate conclusions. I have an annoying ability to remember facts and recall them instantly (my wife calls me the keeper of useless information, but she uses me like a google search ;) ) It's a very useful tool, both professionally and when doing my own "fun" research.

After stumbling upon Jordan's work, I made mental notes of quite a few things that jumped out at me, then took the time to double check my suppositions. I found that he does indeed make some leaps in logic that are simply not supportable.

So what do I do? I file his information away and use it as a resource. As I "learn" new information that either supports or contradicts his claims, I adjust my perceptions accordingly. The same thing goes for virtually every personality in the alternative community. As mentioned earlier, Greer falls into the same general category. As does Wilcock, Icke, and even our own dear Mr. Ryan. We are all just human, and any person would be mistaken to accept anything that they hear as "TRUTH." (big) TRUTH is unknowable, as we force realities to fit into our limited repetoire of categories. (little) truth is personal, and we all hold our own dearly.

Well said, Lazlo.

[Jeffrey]

I look forward to the day when I have done work that is significant enough to be debunked by Mr. White. How else will I know that I am on the right track?

Now then, back to reading Blavatsky.

Let me ask y'all something.

Are you actually following up on any of this?

Or are y'all just choosing who to believe?

Blavatsky did her "research" while being heavily influenced by these "ascended masters" that she was in contact with . . . Sri Aurobindo has a sobering perspective on Blavatsky. Go look it up.

Mr. White has chosen his Bible, and people are shrugging off his research because his impetus touches some sore spot people have with his faith. That is ridiculous.

So, after turning your nose up at his research, you let Blavatsky and Maxwell write you a bible to cling to?

Also, about people taking only what works for them. Really? No research? Are you not just believing other peoples research, taking it on good faith?

Is this really about Truth, or chosing who to believe? Because if it WERE about TRUTH you'd watch the video, set everybodys BELIEFS aside, and DIG into the INFORMATION.

[sigma6]

my, my, my everything is so clear, so crystalline, black and white, if it were only true, and I used to believe that the truth in information would always win out, maybe in other cultures and languages, but I am not so sure about the English language any more... at least not without some extraneous balancing factor, like heightened awareness or intuition... or if we could all live for several hundred years (to do our own research) I believe I have that vid in my collection, but will double check and the Icke video as well.. They are disturbing. But overall is J-Max a secret plant of the NWO? use the same rational logic and look at ALL his videos and this is clearly not the case.

Freud was, and still is attacked the same way today in University psychology lectures by none other then the other professors themselves Why? because its the vogue thing to do, and 'technically a sure point'. As he doesn't stand up to the body of knowledge and standards of methodology that exist today (which is a joke given all the corruption and contamination, but that's another story...) So by taking the man out of the context of his time, when there wasn't even a vocabulary to describe the science, because there wasn't even a science to build a methodology of study around is ridiculous, but professors are cheap shot artists with major ego issues, much like chefs on Ramsey's show that always need to be 'deflated' back to reality.

I don't doubt that J-Max may have made a few factual errors, it is entirely possible, and I am not so sure about the complete 'evilness' of Blavatsky either, since Tsarion makes a good argument that her movement like many others was taken over by Satanic forces within England (Satanic Freemason types, we all know the kind) But the man brought this Promethean knowledge to the world, woke us up. His labour cost him dearly I don't doubt, he did it under great opposition and constant threat. The body of knowledge of which he speaks is so vast, so complex, so diverse, it is amazing the job he has actually done. I think that Jordan, looking at some of his older work, might consider revising it. Icke has backed off from earlier positions he took. Have you ever considered contacting him and asking?

What Freud, J-Max and Icke actually all have in common is they are what is termed 'intuitive geniuses'... They are pioneers delving into relatively uncharted waters, blazing their own trails, building their own structures where there were none for the benefit of future generations. They are humans just like you and me. Fragile, imperfect, emotional human beings that make mistakes, have regrets, fears and anxieties just like the rest of us. But they stood up and took action and never looked back. So that we would have the luxury of running down their rough hewn trails and putting up our own opinions, conjectures, and further research (hopefully) Jordan was also one of the first to talk about the Fed and how BC is a form of trust way, way ahead of its time, and no NWO agent would dare do that, NO WAY.

Thing is when you have an intuitive understanding of something, and yet others can't see it, sometimes it is hard to justify. How do I justify a gestalt of innumerable leads and information? that form as a result of years of study and research... I think all of these men fell into that pressure that may have biased their self expression in that regard and I can't blame or judge them for that... Today we now know that intuitive knowledge, (Akashic records, etc) is very possible and can be validated. We can correct mistakes, as I am sure and would be interested to see what Jordan would do if given the opportunity. And perhaps he may have even more information and context that might justify some of them...

Point is there is some aspect of truth to many of these things that he points to, and instead of just tossing the whole thing out, we should be discussing the exact relationship, adding more research, there is some connection between those mushrooms and the cultural icons of the Roman Vatican and the Santa Claus portrayal, there is a relationship between Sun worship and the Christian extrapolation of the Bible, maybe NEWS isn't directly derived from the cross, but it is metaphorical and good memory device one might use/confuse during research and study...

I'm just saying take a deeper look, there is too much foundation and precious research, 40 years of somone's life can't be summed up in a 1 or 2 hr critique and if that is the case I would like to see his critique of the Bart Ehrman's interpretation of the Gospels, haven't heard anything there... maybe he should pick on someone his own size and leave the Giants of the alternative movement to a less literalistic interpretation... it's just not that simple I have delved into the Commercial Redemption, which I believe is just one avenue of his research, as I just recently discovered Jordan was one of the earlier researchers on this as well, and I can say there ain't no deeper rabbit hole, or expose on how convoluted and twisted all around us the Roman system really is... that would literally take years and years to truly study and learn, no exaggeration, it is what today's entire legal system is based on! and still not even come close to seeing the bottom...

David Wilcock has recently stepped into this briar patch, with the help of Fulford and Winston Shrout, who himself has been studying and lecturing on it for the last 12 years, and he is as brilliant a thinker as they come, but you can tell his head is absolutely spinning... We wouldn't have this context of what is happening in the world today with the US INC. 'government' and the global banking cartel, Vatican Crime Syndicate without this context of understanding and this is just one little niche!

There's a reason it's called a rabbit hole, and it is not because rabbit foot prints and tuff's of dirt have been found in a thicket out in a forest somewhere, and no it isn't about bunny rabbits at all, in case anyone was taking me literally there...

[Christine]

We are ALL part of huge tapestry, NO ONE person has all the pieces or is privy to the TRUTH. Jordan Maxwell has done more than most beings on this planet to try and unveil (decode) those that would deceive. YES, it is up to every individual to use their own discernment in discovering the TRUTH.

I am sure this truth is much more bizarre and paradoxically simple than any of us can imagine.

I salute Jordan Maxwell for his courage and his fortitude. I had the pleasure of meeting him and it is clear that he has suffered greatly on a personal level (sacrificed personal interests) and has dedicated the whole of his life to publishing what he has discovered. Does he know everything...does he claim to know everything? NO. In my view he is a hero, not perfect but a hero none the less.

So instead of debunking Jordan Maxwell how about debunking some of our own biases and self deceptions.

[Jeffrey]

Bill Cooper interviews Jordan Maxwell.

You want a good interview, here it is.

http://remnantradio.org/Archives/articles/William%20Cooper/Mystery%20Babylon/audio/mystery%20babylon%2023.mp3

[seantimberwolf]

I did not even bother watching the video i believe what i know to be true to me.

As for his david icke video it borders on embarresing, most of these FUNDOS (great word btw)
are embarresing to there faith i happen to be pagan so i guess my view is one thats quite negative of the church, but im almost certain that christ is looking down on his "children" saying

"guys you got it all wrong, come on!"

Ah, a modern day Pagan, good for you Sean.

I'm curious though, what led you to the conclusion that undertaking a faith in Paganism would be a good path to follow?

When and why did you decide to label yourself as 'a Pagan'?

Do you feel being a Pagan defines who you are and what you're about?

I often wonder why people feel the need to choose a religion and to have faith in something outside of themselves.

I guess the whole idea of religion just never made much sense to me for some reason.

Ever since I was born I've always been a strong believer in Daniel Day, I have A LOT of faith in him.

Throughout my life he's always had my back, always had my best interests at heart, always been there for me... I kinda like the guy ;)

I feel like I made the right choice for me, I guess you probably feel the same way too.

All the best :)

Well its down to who i am mate,
I have faith in nature in the old gods of valor (i believe in the asatru pagan rites)
i cant put faith in a god who asks i go to one knee to him, a real god is knowing of his/her power and respects the ideals of man,

Jesus died for my sins yet i have to atone for them, weather i have comited them or not? no thanks Odin asks no such act of me, he meets me as a warrior as a man with faith in him, he does not ask i attend a mass to worship him, or that i FEAR his judgement, he does not damn me to eternal hellfire for not believing in him, he is there and i CHOOSE to embrace him as my god.

That to me is true power, is true deification, the choice is mans, why should god hold his followers to ransom?

It never added up in my mind, i beleive in HONOR, VALOR, STRENGHT, and standing up to adversity with my mind and body, not weeping martyrs on crosses, (no offence to christians)

[Fred Steeves]

Here is a man who devoted his life to a mission, and believed he had failed.

I know he believes this is so Bill, and that's very sad, because that is an area where he is profoundly mistaken. I truly hope he sticks around here with us long enough to see otherwise.http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif

[sigma6]

We have Serenity on Maxwell, about White on Maxwell, and now Cooper on Maxwell... and then there is John Lear on Cooper... lol.... and don't get me wrong I really think Cooper was doing a fantastic job, had great integrity, again, he was ahead of his time, his work was prophetic, and his expose on UFOs, the NWO and the Freemason movement was incredible in it's depth of detail and research... But he too was a lone voice, and all too late in the game realized the enormous monstrosity that he was up against too late, too late... (RIP) ....the terror... the terror...

add in: (for those who didn't 'catch' the 'movie' quote): if only people were exposed to the full naked depth of the truth of what was going on behind closed doors, they very well could lose their sense, their courage, and retreat into some kind of insanity, as manifested in various degrees by many today, but then 'they' would want that, wouldn't they...)

[Pam]

I appreciate your point of view. You can believe whatever you like. While reading your response to others it occurred to me that you are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing. I have no doubt your intentions are sincere. Put your info out there and don't try to control the outcome...You will be much more balanced that way...

[Unified Serenity]

The point is made regarding during the video that alias names are fine with them. Lots of people change their names, but they call into question Maxwell's explanation and point out his website. Here is a screen shot of his website which I have visited in the past many times. Of course I was too stupid until now, to really check out his name. So, let's start with this picture:

17331

sorry, not a great screenshot, but unless he changes it and he hasn't for years, just go and look for yourself at:

http://jordanmaxwell.com/words.html

You see, he claims he had no notion of those words until he got that email from a Rabbi. That's pretty amazing really since he claims to be a wordsmith, one of his favorite writers and deep teachers is Blavatsky, and this is part of her holy trinity! She also reveals this fact in a work she wrote which he openly stated in his presentation that was his favorite work of hers! So, we are to believe this is all a coincidence? He is a devotee to her, he uses facts she presents in her works that do not stand up under true historical and linguistic scholarship, and just happens to be named pretty damn close to the Second in command in the Holy Trinity she pushes?



NAZARENE.
First Trinity.
Lord FERHO — the Life which is no Life — the Supreme God. The Cause which produces the Light, or the Logos in abscondito. The water of Jordanus Maximus — the water of Life, or Ajar, the feminine principle. Unity in a Trinity, enclosed within the ISH AMON.

from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/isis/iu2-07a.htm
I just found this comment on ATS


Click here if the above link doesn't play( i always have trouble with that thing)
Watch video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1155202722043130535)
This is a film detailing the many mistakes and outright lies of Jordan Maxwell.
After months of research and checking Jordan Maxwell's "facts" I found him to be a very deceptive and manipulative teacher. In addition to debunking many of his claims this films looks at his motivations and associations and shows that his philosophy is exactly that of the So called New World Order, although its very cleverly hidden.
You will find his devotion to Theosophy includes his name "Jordanus Maximus"

I used to believe everything this man said.

Do I Think he is one of THEM?
I don't know, but I do know that whether he is or not he is helping sell so called Truth Seekers the New World Order religion on a silver platter.

Some Questions I answered:

Does the sun die on the cross of the zodiac?
Is the compass rose an acronym for "NEWS"
Does Christ mean "oil"?
Does anoint mean "sex"?
Is God merely a volcano?
Does the ark of the covenant represent the feminine ability to give life?
Did King Solomon exist?
Is the name Solomon derived from Sol OM On
Does OM mean The Sun?
Do we call turning on lights "on" because of Heliopolis?
Does Solomons temple represent sex?
Was Manna in the bible psychedelic mushrooms?
Where is the mushroom painting?
Does mushroom art in the 1200 speak for Christianity?
Does Judaism come from Saturn Worship?
Did the Egyptians say the sun was setting because of their god Set?
Does Yahweh or YHWH mean the building up and releasing of dynamic energy? And is it associated with sex?
Did Jordan Maxwell get His name from blavatskys "Jordanus Maximus" and if so why is he lying about it?
Why does he….
Jordan Maxwell calls for a new world order
He says God communicates with us only through symbols
He says the non-human/human hybrids are here and that they have a "divine right" to rule over us and that he is smart enough to accept it.
He also says that these hybrids are going to reward him for understanding their symbols
Some history about the Nephilim and the sons of god
Jordan Maxwell describes his encounter with aliens he explains how he told these entities that he would do their will as long as the didn't come to him in his room or "abduct him"
And he explains how this deal was later confirmed and they would "channel" through him. He describes his uncle and family in the Vatican and the mob and says they are one in the same. More weird associations and conclusions.


Here is the audio if you cant watch movies for some reason
nowheretorun... (http://nowheretorun). podomatic. com/enclosure/2008-05-15T18_30_10-07_00. mp3

Also I did an interview with a guy a while back he does a radio show too and he did a movie on Maxwell too exept his was a very pro one, he stayed with Jordan for around a week in LA getting footage, so anyway this guy had me on to talk about this, he like maxwell a lot, so it was interesting.
this was before I put this movie together, anyway it's a very interesting show it can be downloaded here
nowheretorun.podomatic.com... (http://nowheretorun.podomatic.com/enclosure/2008-05-09T13_05_25-07_00.) mp3Besides the screenshot I took, here is the rest of the info on his name:


First of all, Jordan Maxwell derived his name from Jordanus Maximus, a character created by Helena Blavatsky in her book, Isis Unveiled – which Jordan Maxwell has publicly admitted is his favorite book by Blavatsky, whom he has also publicly acknowledged great admiration for (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7i0XctXxl0&feature=related). From here (http://www.reality-choice.org/42/who-is-jordan-maxwell)The point is made regarding during the video that alias names are fine with them. Lots of people change their names, but they call into question Maxwell's explanation and point out his website. Here is a screen shot of his website which I have visited in the past many times. Of course I was too stupid until now, to really check out his name. So, let's start with this picture:

Click image for larger version Name: maxwell screenshot.jpg Views: 0 Size: 203.4 KB ID: 17331

sorry, not a great screenshot, but unless he changes it and he hasn't for years, just go and look for yourself at:

http://jordanmaxwell.com/words.html

You see, he claims he had no notion of those words until he got that email from a Rabbi. That's pretty amazing really since he claims to be a wordsmith, one of his favorite writers and deep teachers is Blavatsky, and this is part of her holy trinity! She also reveals this fact in a work she wrote which he openly stated in his presentation that was his favorite work of hers! So, we are to believe this is all a coincidence? He is a devotee to her, he uses facts she presents in her works that do not stand up under true historical and linguistic scholarship, and just happens to be named pretty damn close to the Second in command in the Holy Trinity she pushes?




NAZARENE.

First Trinity.

Lord FERHO — the Life which is no Life — the Supreme God. The Cause which produces the Light, or the Logos in abscondito. The water of Jordanus Maximus — the water of Life, or Ajar, the feminine principle. Unity in a Trinity, enclosed within the ISH AMON.

from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/isis/iu2-07a.htmI just found this comment on ATS


Click here if the above link doesn't play( i always have trouble with that thing)
Watch video
This is a film detailing the many mistakes and outright lies of Jordan Maxwell.
After months of research and checking Jordan Maxwell's "facts" I found him to be a very deceptive and manipulative teacher. In addition to debunking many of his claims this films looks at his motivations and associations and shows that his philosophy is exactly that of the So called New World Order, although its very cleverly hidden.

You will find his devotion to Theosophy includes his name "Jordanus Maximus"

I used to believe everything this man said.

Do I Think he is one of THEM?
I don't know, but I do know that whether he is or not he is helping sell so called Truth Seekers the New World Order religion on a silver platter.

Some Questions I answered:

Does the sun die on the cross of the zodiac?
Is the compass rose an acronym for "NEWS"
Does Christ mean "oil"?
Does anoint mean "sex"?
Is God merely a volcano?
Does the ark of the covenant represent the feminine ability to give life?
Did King Solomon exist?
Is the name Solomon derived from Sol OM On
Does OM mean The Sun?
Do we call turning on lights "on" because of Heliopolis?
Does Solomons temple represent sex?
Was Manna in the bible psychedelic mushrooms?
Where is the mushroom painting?
Does mushroom art in the 1200 speak for Christianity?
Does Judaism come from Saturn Worship?
Did the Egyptians say the sun was setting because of their god Set?
Does Yahweh or YHWH mean the building up and releasing of dynamic energy? And is it associated with sex?
Did Jordan Maxwell get His name from blavatskys "Jordanus Maximus" and if so why is he lying about it?
Why does he….
Jordan Maxwell calls for a new world order
He says God communicates with us only through symbols
He says the non-human/human hybrids are here and that they have a "divine right" to rule over us and that he is smart enough to accept it.
He also says that these hybrids are going to reward him for understanding their symbols
Some history about the Nephilim and the sons of god
Jordan Maxwell describes his encounter with aliens he explains how he told these entities that he would do their will as long as the didn't come to him in his room or "abduct him"
And he explains how this deal was later confirmed and they would "channel" through him. He describes his uncle and family in the Vatican and the mob and says they are one in the same. More weird associations and conclusions.


Here is the audio if you cant watch movies for some reason
nowheretorun.... podomatic. com/enclosure/2008-05-15T18_30_10-07_00. mp3

Also I did an interview with a guy a while back he does a radio show too and he did a movie on Maxwell too exept his was a very pro one, he stayed with Jordan for around a week in LA getting footage, so anyway this guy had me on to talk about this, he like maxwell a lot, so it was interesting.
this was before I put this movie together, anyway it's a very interesting show it can be downloaded here
nowheretorun.podomatic.com... mp3Besides the screenshot I took, here is the rest of the info on his name:


To many in the truth movement, Jordan Maxwell has become a revered source of information. Appearing many times on the Alex Jones Show, and the author of many books and videos of his own, Jordan Maxwell has been supposedly exposing the Machiavellian machinations of the global elite for many years.

However, what most in the truth movement have failed to realize is that they are unwittingly being led into the New World Order by Maxwell, Jones, David Icke, Alan Watt and others. I will cover those others at a later date, but for now, I will focus upon Jordan Maxwell.

First of all, Jordan Maxwell derived his name from Jordanus Maximus, a character created by Helena Blavatsky in her book, Isis Unveiled – which Jordan Maxwell has publicly admitted is his favorite book by Blavatsky, whom he has also publicly acknowledged great admiration for.

Helena Blavatsky was the founder of the Theosophical Society and the movement known as Theosophy, which is, to quote Wikipedia, “a doctrine of religious philosophy and metaphysics. Theosophy holds that all religions are attempts by the ‘ Spiritual Hierarchy ’ to help humanity in evolving to greater perfection, and that each religion therefore has a portion of the truth.” To quote Blavatsky, herself: “We assert that the divine spark in man being one and identical in its essence with the Universal Spirit, our “ spiritual Self ” is practically omniscient, but that it cannot manifest its knowledge owing to the impediments of matter. Now the more these impediments are removed, in other words, the more the physical body is paralyzed, as to its own independent activity and consciousness, as in deep sleep or deep trance, or, again, in illness, the more fully can the inner Self manifest on this plane. This is our explanation of those truly wonderful phenomena of a higher order, in which undeniable intelligence and knowledge are exhibited.”

While this mumbo-jumbo may seem harmless enough, pay close attention to some further quotes from Blavatsky:

“Lucifer represents.. Life.. Thought.. Progress.. Civilization.. Liberty.. Independence.. Lucifer is the Logos.. the Serpent, the Savior.” The Secret Doctrine, pages 171, 225, 255 (Volume II)

“It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God.” The Secret Doctrine, pages 215, 216, 220, 245, 255, 533, (VI)

“The Celestial Virgin which thus becomes the Mother of Gods and Devils at one and the same time; for she is the ever-loving beneficent Deity…but in antiquity and reality Lucifer or Luciferius is the name. Lucifer is divine and terrestrial Light, ‘the Holy Ghost’ and ‘Satan’ at one and the same time.” The Secret Doctrine, page 539.

Blavatsky was a Co-Freemason. Co-Freemasonry is simply a form of Freemasonry that admits both men and women as members. Therefore, Blavatsky was a Freemason.

So, in admitting to being an admirer of Blavatsky, Jordan Maxwell is, by extension, subscribing to Freemasonry and to Theosophy, as well. In fact, Maxwell is also caught on video admitting to having been a close personal friend of the late Freemason Manly P. Hall.

Manly Palmer Hall’s most noted work was The Secret Teachings of All Ages: An Encyclopedic Outline of Masonic, Hermetic, Qabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolical Philosophy, published in 1928. Note that the word “ Qabbalistic ” refers to Kabbalism, or the Kabbala, “… a discipline and school of thought concerned with the mystical aspect of Judaism. It is a set of esoteric teachings meant to explain the relationship between an eternal/mysterious Creator and the mortal/finite universe, ” to quote Wikipedia. What Wikipedia doesn’t tell you, though, is that this “mysterious creator” is Lucifer.

Now, whether one believes in gods and devils or not is irrelevant, here. I’m an agnostic, myself. The point is, the global elite certainly do believe in all this and it is from this twisted thinking that the justification for all they do is derived. If we accept that Luciferianism is, at it’s base, an excuse for the practice of evil in the world – and I think we can establish this, based upon the many ritual sacrifices of innocent human beings carried out by these people in the name of their “mysterious creator” Lucifer – then it follows that those who subscribe to such beliefs are very likely to be practicing evil in the world. I think the very fact that the elite, who do subscribe to this worldview, are carrying out an evil agenda to wipe out up to 90% of the human race and to subjugate the remaining survivors to slavery under a world government is all the proof we need of the danger posed by such beliefs, whether they have any basis in fact or not. From here (http://www.reality-choice.org/42/who-is-jordan-maxwell)The simple fact for me, is until yesterday I did not question really what Jorden Maxwell was sharing except I thought he was a very gifted researcher. I did not do my due diligence in verifying all the stuff he was pushing as facts about ancient history and such. When someone gets a reputation and those I respect show such respect for that person, then I stupidly accepted it. The fact is, there is a lot I did not know until yesterday, and I have watched a lot of Jorden Maxwell stuff. I owe David Wilcock an apology for riding his ass for not vetting people better and just putting them on the air. They talk a good game, friends vouch for them, but did he look into their background himself? Probably not, and so I rode his ass for putting the likes of Brockbrader and Drake on the air. I apparently just as guilty of trusting this community to vett people and now, I know not everything Maxwell shares is based on real research nor is it even plausible he believes it. Maybe he does believe it, but anyone claiming to be a linguistic scholar doing research and sharing his deep insights to word origins should really know what they re talking about.

Jorden Maxwell example A:

Quote Did King Solomon exist? Is the name Solomon derived from Sol OM On Does OM mean The Sun? Do we call turning on lights “on” because of Heliopolis?
These are actual comments made by Maxwell. His premise is asking:

King Solomon didn't even exist anywhere outside of the bible, and his name is just the peoples worship of the sun. Maxwell says that Solomon is just a word combination of:

Sol = Sun

Om = Sun god

on = some aspect of turning electricity on

Well, first of all, the name Solomon doesn't even exist in the Hebrew bible. That is an anglicized name for Shlomo. I know Jewish men whose name is Shlomo and they get called Solomon. If my name was Shlomo I'd want to be called Solomon here as well.

Now, electricity was even being used back then and so the idea that the word "on" was looking forward some 1800 years is a real stretch. There is no proof to back up the "Om" is a Hindu sun god. Om is a mantra used in meditations, it's not a name of a god. Often they put "Om" in front of a name or just chant it over and over.

Here is another one of Maxwell's claims:

The Egyptian god Set is so named because he's a sun god, and the Sun sets. Well, that would be handy if the word for setting sun had anything in common with the sound of the name Set, but it doesn't. According to touregypt.net, "Set (Seth, Setekh, Sut, Sutekh, Suty) was one of ancient Egypt's earliest gods, a god of chaos, confusion, storms, wind, the desert and foreign lands." What Maxwell claims is ridiculous when looked at closely, but he just says stuff like it's matter of fact knowledge for any linguistic scholar, and it's not. It does though cause people to doubt the bible, and I think that's the purpose of why he does this.

Let me do one more of his poor word explaining. Maxwell tries to say that the Hebrew religion is a mushroom cult because they gathered manna in the wilderness which were psychedelic mushrooms and when you ate them you could talk to God, and that's why they call the High priest the Highhhhhhhh Priest. Now, as in the video, I agree, Maxwell was having a joke, but there are actual people who think that's part of what Maxwell teaches, that High refers to being blown out of your mind on funny shrooms. But let's get back to this whole manna was mind altering mushrooms that allowed you to talk to God.

Where in the bible are we told the people ate manna or the priests in order to talk to God? Please show me the bible reference. In fact, the bible says it was angels food provided to the people to feed them while they chased their tails for 40 years wandering in the desert. Ok, it doesn't say chased their tails, but they were wandering because they lost faith in God. So, they were given manna to eat for FOOD! How much could they eat and could they store it? The bible says this about the manna:

Exodus 16:15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they knew not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.
Exo 16:16 This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.
Exo 16:17 And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.
Exo 16:18 And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.
Exo 16:19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.
Exo 16:20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
Exo 16:21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.
Exo 16:22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
Exo 16:24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
Exo 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
Exo 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
Exo 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
Exo 16:31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.
Exo 16:32 And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth, Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations; that they may see the bread wherewith I have fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt.

Do you know how much an omer of manna would be to eat? It's about about 3.64 litres! If you ate that much funny mushrooms you would die! No where in there is it called a mushroom. In fact, no where does it say it's for talking with God. I have never taken psychedelic mushrooms, but I have a brother who has and friends who have, and they have never said they tasted like wafers made with honey. My point here is Jorden Maxwell is taking a lot of liberty with historical texts and trying to imply things they just don't say or even hint at. The video I posted has a ton more stuff. Things that he is just saying that come straight from Blavatsky but upon true scholarly research shows zero credibility.

My other thread about Is Ra El, puts that whole twist to rest as well.
The Egyptians never called her Isis. In fact her name would best be written as "Eusat". Some go so far as to say they don't pronounce the "t" in ancient Egyptian (I guess the Egyptian goddesses Baset, Ma’at, Nekhbet, Nut, Sekhmet, Selkhet, Taweret, Bat, Mafdet, Chensit, Hatmehit, Hedetet, Hemsut, Heqet, Pakhet, Unut and Tefnut all just happen to be freak exceptions to this rule to name a few). From here (http://benstanhope.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html) If you care to learn the another viewpoint on these matters and finish the explanation of why Israel is not some joined words then check out this thread I started.

The simple fact for me, is until yesterday I did not question really what Jorden Maxwell was sharing except I thought he was a very gifted researcher. I did not do my due diligence in verifying all the stuff he was pushing as facts about ancient history and such. When someone gets a reputation and those I respect show such respect for that person, then I stupidly accepted it. The fact is, there is a lot I did not know until yesterday, and I have watched a lot of Jorden Maxwell stuff. I owe David Wilcock an apology for riding his ass for not vetting people better and just putting them on the air. They talk a good game, friends vouch for them, but did he look into their background himself? Probably not, and so I rode his ass for putting the likes of Brockbrader and Drake on the air. I apparently just as guilty of trusting this community to vett people and now, I know not everything Maxwell shares is based on real research nor is it even plausible he believes it. Maybe he does believe it, but anyone claiming to be a linguistic scholar doing research and sharing his deep insights to word origins should really know what they re talking about.

Jorden Maxwell example A:


Did King Solomon exist? Is the name Solomon derived from Sol OM On Does OM mean The Sun? Do we call turning on lights “on” because of Heliopolis? These are actual comments made by Maxwell. His premise is asking:

King Solomon didn't even exist anywhere outside of the bible, and his name is just the peoples worship of the sun. Maxwell says that Solomon is just a word combination of:

Sol = Sun

Om = Sun god

on = some aspect of turning electricity on

Well, first of all, the name Solomon doesn't even exist in the Hebrew bible. That is an anglicized name for Shlomo. I know Jewish men whose name is Shlomo and they get called Solomon. If my name was Shlomo I'd want to be called Solomon here as well.

Now, electricity was even being used back then and so the idea that the word "on" was looking forward some 1800 years is a real stretch. There is no proof to back up the "Om" is a Hindu sun god. Om is a mantra used in meditations, it's not a name of a god. Often they put "Om" in front of a name or just chant it over and over.

Here is another one of Maxwell's claims:

The Egyptian god Set is so named because he's a sun god, and the Sun sets. Well, that would be handy if the word for setting sun had anything in common with the sound of the name Set, but it doesn't. According to touregypt.net, (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/set.htm) "Set (Seth, Setekh, Sut, Sutekh, Suty) was one of ancient Egypt's earliest gods, a god of chaos, confusion, storms, wind, the desert and foreign lands." What Maxwell claims is ridiculous when looked at closely, but he just says stuff like it's matter of fact knowledge for any linguistic scholar, and it's not. It does though cause people to doubt the bible, and I think that's the purpose of why he does this.

Let me do one more of his poor word explaining. Maxwell tries to say that the Hebrew religion is a mushroom cult because they gathered manna in the wilderness which were psychedelic mushrooms and when you ate them you could talk to God, and that's why they call the High priest the Highhhhhhhh Priest. Now, as in the video, I agree, Maxwell was having a joke, but there are actual people who think that's part of what Maxwell teaches, that High refers to being blown out of your mind on funny shrooms. But let's get back to this whole manna was mind altering mushrooms that allowed you to talk to God.

Where in the bible are we told the people ate manna or the priests in order to talk to God? Please show me the bible reference. In fact, the bible says it was angels food provided to the people to feed them while they chased their tails for 40 years wandering in the desert. Ok, it doesn't say chased their tails, but they were wandering because they lost faith in God. So, they were given manna to eat for FOOD! How much could they eat and could they store it? The bible says this about the manna:

Exodus 16:15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they knew not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.
Exo 16:16 This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.
Exo 16:17 And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.
Exo 16:18 And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.
Exo 16:19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.
Exo 16:20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
Exo 16:21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.
Exo 16:22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
Exo 16:24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
Exo 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
Exo 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
Exo 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
Exo 16:31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.
Exo 16:32 And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth, Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations; that they may see the bread wherewith I have fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt.

Do you know how much an omer of manna would be to eat? It's about about 3.64 litres! If you ate that much funny mushrooms you would die! No where in there is it called a mushroom. In fact, no where does it say it's for talking with God. I have never taken psychedelic mushrooms, but I have a brother who has and friends who have, and they have never said they tasted like wafers made with honey. My point here is Jorden Maxwell is taking a lot of liberty with historical texts and trying to imply things they just don't say or even hint at. The video I posted has a ton more stuff. Things that he is just saying that come straight from Blavatsky but upon true scholarly research shows zero credibility.

My other thread about Is Ra El, puts that whole twist to rest as well. The Egyptians never called her Isis. In fact her name would best be written as "Eusat". Some go so far as to say they don't pronounce the "t" in ancient Egyptian (I guess the Egyptian goddesses Baset, Ma’at, Nekhbet, Nut, Sekhmet, Selkhet, Taweret, Bat, Mafdet, Chensit, Hatmehit, Hedetet, Hemsut, Heqet, Pakhet, Unut and Tefnut all just happen to be freak exceptions to this rule to name a few (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Egyptian_goddesses)). If you care to learn the another viewpoint on these matters and finish the explanation of why Israel is not some joined words then check out this thread I started. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47178-Israel-Isis-Ra-El-another-viewpoint)

Ok, I have edited the above article with full block quote of the article on "Who is Jordan Maxwell". It brings into question people I am not looking at at this time. In fact, you can go into my past threads and see where I really like Alan Watts and David Icke. I am not on a witch hunt to ruin these people. Everyone makes mistakes, but what is shared in the Maxwell video are specific points he makes that are quite deceptive in my opinion. If you don't watch it, then you really don't have a valid opinion. If you do watch it and want to raise some points that bring the explanation into further light, please do so. I am not one to discuss with another on a topic who has not the time, inclination or intellectual honesty to actually be on the same page of the subject at hand.

[Jeffrey]

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[RMorgan]

Hey folks,

Personally, I don´t have anything against making mistakes.

It´s better to make mistakes searching for the truth than to be correct buying a big mac.

The point is if the mistakes are genuine or if they are deliberately made to misdirect.

In Maxwell´s case, I don´t have anything concrete to conclude that he´s trying to misdirect people.

I think he´s honest, differently from other characters (I don´t even need to name them again).

Anyway, my conclusion is only based on what you call "gut feelings". I really don´t believe he´s deliberately trying to spread disinfo but, of course, I might be wrong.

Cheers,

Raf.

[Jeffrey]

So, Mr. White thinks "Maxwell loves Blavatsky's work, Blavatsky loves Lucifer" and chocks all of Maxwell's work to be an agenticity colluding with the enemy.

Then, we turn around and say, "Mr. White loves his faith, he believes in Jesus Christ" and we chock all of his research up to his intentions.

So, we have Mr. White's intentions versus Jordan Maxwell's intentions. Both are well intended, hell if we were driven to believe people based on their intentions then a lot more people here would get behind Drake.

Break down Maxwell's work, break down White's work. The real conflicts of interest lie in beliefs in Jesus Christ (as with Icke too). Alright, well strip that off and there is still information worth looking at.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Unified Serenity, you're busted :) -- a substantial amount of your long post #33 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=519326&viewfull=1#post519326) above you copied verbatim from http://ppjg.me/2010/03/04/who-is-jordan-maxwell. (http://ppjg.me/2010/03/04/who-is-jordan-maxwell)

Please: if you're quoting other blogs and websites, cite your sources and make it clear when you are copying what others have written.

*** By the way, Jordan is both humbled and proud to have known Manly P. Hall pretty well -- and was astounded when Hall gifted him his entire esoteric library upon his death. That's an extraordinary, invaluable archive of deep information.

Jordan openly talks about how he knew many Freemasons (how do you suppose he learns about stuff?) and was even invited to some meetings -- but always remained objective and critical, and while remaining sociable (the mark of any good researcher) -- he always kept his personal distance from their purposes and agendas.

[Unified Serenity]

Vivek, you have a point in the comparative religion class. The difference here is what is being told is meant to undermine through very questionable research what is real about the bible. There is an agenda to put it in the books of yesteryear fables. I don't mind examining the bible, but to make statements such as are done in this video is very suspect. Where do we see Christians taking the book of Satan and twisting it all around. Amazingly, the vast majority of the alt media UFO movement centers around dumping Christianity and embracing a new spirituality. Another point I did notice in the MUFON video I posted was the sheer logic of raising the observation that if Aliens have traveled all this way, care about our planet, and us then why are they not sharing scientific stuff and other things like that to their channels? No, they focus on spirituality and telling them that "Yes, we are angels, but not as your bible teaches" or "We were your creators, and viewed as God, but we have come to show you that you are just as much God, and through your help we will bring in a new age and ascend to your rightful place with us". Wow, so, they came all this way to talk to us about God? They came all this was to help us dump our backwards spiritual beliefs and get on board to make us one big happy family in the New Age of Enlightenment and knowledge? Gee, I think we did this once before only it was called the garden of Eden and we were promised we'd be as God knowing good and evil, and we would not die. Wow, how stupid are we?

[shadowstalker]

*** By the way, Jordan is both humbled and proud to have known Manly P. Hall pretty well -- and was astounded when Hall gifted him his entire esoteric library upon his death. That's an extraordinary, invaluable archive of deep information. Jordan knew many Freemasons, but never embraced the order.

That's a very good point to make, I have many books on the occult and witchcraft and the like to help me do my research but that don't mean I sleep with the devil..

My grandfather was prolly a mason cuz I saw him wear a masonic ring once or twice but that didn't make him holy knowledgeable to what really happens at the top of the pyramid.

My folks practiced the wiccen ways when I was a child, but that don't mean i was used in negative rituals.

and so on and so on and so on...

[Unified Serenity]

Bill, I reworded sections, and I quoted sections. If you want me to do a long post with a full unaltered quote I will, but people complain if I do that, so I reworded it. If that upsets you then I am happy to quote it verbatum. It is not my intention to plagiarize, and if you think that is what that was, I will just do a whole block quote. That being the case, researching and sharing what is found with citing it would all be plagiarism. If I had intended to actually plagiarizer and thus it be criminal, I would not have actually linked to the very page of hers where I reworded portions.

No harm was meant. I just got tired of people claiming all I do is copy and paste. My article is a mixture of what I have found on other sites, and my insights.

Thanks for understanding.

[sigma6]

Usually when someone changes their name they would like to keep it private, (otherwise what is the purpose of changing your name) John Doe, doesn't want to be known as John Doe - Henry Smith. Kinda takes away the effect. So might someone fib about it?... damn right, if only to protect their privacy, so what? Timberwolf wants to be a "Pagan" (which belies the point, say no more) do you think when he is 60, with a pot belly and can barely lift a cane that he will feel the same? doubt it, it's call life, I remember very well my rural upbringing and in Highschool and we DID live like Vikings, we didn't think we would live past 30 (LOL) Looking back, I almost CAN'T believe what I did back then, (other then I did it, and some paid dearly) but at some point, it woke me up too, I realized I couldn't test fate anymore. Not in full knowledge (karma) Point is, it changed me as a person. It's called experimenting. Limp Bisket said it - "Life is a lesson and you'll learn it when your through"

Serenity, (and this isn't an attack) just a leap, but you strike me as a perfectionist, I'd be curious as to what you do for a living (not to pry) but just for context... I remember feeling everything you were feeling when I first came across all this... then I thought about people who changed their names, it's a very personal thing... time and consciousness change things, people don't like advertising stuff like that, is all...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtPL2YhK6h0&feature=related

[Bill Ryan]

-------

A name change means nothing (Jordan's real name is Russell Pine, as is well known). Kerry Cassidy isn't her real name, either! She changed it when she was in her 20s.

Many people do that, for all kinds of reasons, especially if they are or want to be a public figure. Ask anyone in Hollywood or in the music industry, or even in publishing.

[Kristin]

Here's a snip of an interview with Jordan Maxwell trying to respond to Chris White directly and in his own words. Take it for what you see in terms of personality and how these two individuals react to one another. I would like to hear more of Jordan talking about his views point by point with Chris, however, I doubt that Jordan would be able to finish a sentence without a strong and competent moderator at hand.

From the Heart,
Wormhole

By the way, it took a long time to find this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh57aSvIGfs

IN no way was my respect diminished for Maxwell.

[seantimberwolf]

I think to go out of your way to create a documantary and damn a person who has only tired to bring about truth, you must have a private agenda.
And this is what we are seeing here,
And trust me Sigma my "faith" is a direct to this thread because its my "faith" that stops me from making rash decisions with information from zealots.
And i hope i dont have a beer belly considering i dont drink often enough lol.

[Jeffrey]

I think David Icke is wrong about Jesus Christ. I think Madame Blavatsky is wrong about Jesus Christ. I think Christianity is wrong about Jesus Christ.

I think David Icke, Blavatsky, Maxwell, etc - all of their thoughts are influenced by their beliefs, and if we can dig past them (maybe I am being naive) the information is just as valuable.

I think my thoughts are influenced by my beliefs. I try not to let my beliefs get the best of me, as I think our beliefs should reflect knowledge, so I would rather knowledge get the best of me. I also think that we should never stop learning. So,
I never get too comfortable with what I think.

I think we shouldn't be trying to find the common thread (ie God) in all belief systems, because once you start tugging, the sweater unravels and reveals a one world religion. That presents the same problem as social-memory-complexes. They shed smaller egos to join a bigger one.

I think we should be concentrating on tugging that thread that exposes the common enemy in all belief systems, and real world systems.

What's that saying? The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

[Lazlo]

A recalled a personal experience while reading this thread that perhaps may be a good reminder for all of us.

I had a close associate, and dare I say friend, whom I regarded highly. I knew the man's family, and even worked on a critically injured patient with him. We literally held a woman's life in our hands while we packaged her for a helo ride to a trauma center (she made a full recovery by the way). The man was intelligent, caring, and also an attorney.

He was arrested on charges of siphoning off funds from a trust that he was executor of. A really tragic story in that the fund was set up for the young woman's care after she was criminally injured in an auto accident. I came to his defense loudly, only to discover that all of the allegations were true, and was extremely disappointed and embarrased by defending a man who had stolen from a disabled person.

What lesson did I learn from this?

A person can be both good and bad, and nothing is black and white. We saved a person's life together, he is a loving father, and he was a liar and a thief, and now a convicted felon.

You can know someone deeply and personally, and not ever really know them.

Is Jordan Maxwell a good man? I don't know, and neither does anyone else really. It's between him and the creator (or whatever term you prefer). All I know is what I perceive and can validate for myself. Jordan has made an invaluable contribution to the search for the truth, and he has made some mistakes.

He is merely human, as are we all.

[Jeffrey]

Here's a snip of an interview with Jordan Maxwell trying to respond to Chris White directly and in his own words. Take it for what you see in terms of personality and how these two individuals react to one another. I would like to hear more of Jordan talking about his views point by point with Chris, however, I doubt that Jordan would be able to finish a sentence without a strong and competent moderator at hand.

From the Heart,
Wormhole

By the way, it took a long time to find this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh57aSvIGfs

Wow, thanks, this is great for the thread. I wish they had had more time too.

rh57aSvIGfs

[sigma6]

re: your concern Maxwell is 'undermining' Christianity...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFmeDfsv4j8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-1hdqNDQ9E

Unfortunately, and it is not easy for me either, as I am no 'Atheist' or 'Sun Worshipper' (I am still wading through it...) but these guys are serious, methodical, and detailed, it's above board, on the table, take it or leave it... no guessing, or hard to interpret information sources here... Not to distract but this is part of the equation too... We are ALL learning, ALL on the path, all being exposed, this is the age of Revelations perhaps, but there is a theory that the Bible does create it's own future, on one side and the elites use it as a 'Play book' on the other side much as Frank Herbert played up in Dune... after all, it does appear they wrote it... I have heard the original 'Christians' were originally called 'Followers of the Way' (sounds a bit Eastern philosophical to me...) so even the word 'Christian' has been tacked on after the fact for us... let's face it, this is bigger then what all of us put together know... but I agree with on one thing...

the bottom line is trying to find the Truth, in order to live in accordance with it, It is turning out for me that is a journey more then a destination...

and respect to you Timberwolf, no harm, this thread is moving fast, and Vivek nice interview, critic guy definitely lost my vote, he is just jumping all over Jordan, it's funny people believe in Demons but find it hard to accept Angelic beings, then again what is demonic? what is angelic?

[21CC]

To garner information that's relevant and useful we use our idiosyncratic filters to avoid "blind faith". Research is the given, it takes effort to sort out myriad conflicting information. Be safer by citing sources and always, but always, be discerning!

[Unified Serenity]

Usually when someone changes their name they would like to keep it private, (otherwise what is the purpose of changing your name) John Doe, doesn't want to be known as John Doe - Henry Smith. Kinda takes away the effect. So might someone fib about it?... damn right, if only to protect their privacy, so what? Timberwolf wants to be a "Pagan" (which belies the point, say no more) do you think when he is 60, with a pot belly and can barely lift a cane that he will feel the same? doubt it, it's call life, I remember very well my rural upbringing and in Highschool and we DID live like Vikings, we didn't think we would live past 30 (LOL) Looking back, I almost CAN'T believe what I did back then, (other then I did it, and some paid dearly) but at some point, it woke me up too, I realized I couldn't test fate anymore. Not in full knowledge (karma) Point is, it changed me as a person. It's called experimenting. Limp Bisket said it - "Life is a lesson and you'll learn it when your through"

Serenity, (and this isn't an attack) just a leap, but you strike me as a perfectionist, I'd be curious as to what you do for a living (not to pry) but just for context... I remember feeling everything you were feeling when I first came across all this... then I thought about people who changed their names, it's a very personal thing... time and consciousness change things, people don't like advertising stuff like that, is all...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtPL2YhK6h0&feature=related

Thanks for the questions. About a year ago, both my parents died within a short time of one another. My dad was expected, but mom suddenly died in February a few months before my dad. We had a big upheaval and as I was working for an evil empire at the time, I told them to take a hike when as the general manager and my father dying in my home slowly they insisted I work 100+ hour weeks when I was contracted to 52 hours. It felt really good to tell the regional manager to take the keys and shove it. I decided to pull back and slow down. We have enough to live on and so I write and research now, but I may choose to venture back out and do something I like. Currently, I am devoted to being a pitmaster and have smoked ribs, shoulders, butts, and brisket to try to get the perfect recipe of rub, wood, time, and mopping down. I love bbq and would love to do it competitively. So, for now, I am being pretty lazy and just writing and researching. I've been working on a very big project research and writing for about 15 years now, and everytime I think I know exactly how I want it to be, I come across more stuff. I don't know if it will ever be published, but it's primarily research I desired and have benefited from. It would probably just piss off every group on the planet if I did publish it.

As a side note.... I changed my full name when I was 14. I won't go into the details, but I had reasons to do it. The point is made in the video and in my article that I have zero problem with people changing their names or using and alias, but for a man as intelligent as Maxwell who admits his love of Blavastky and the very book she used the name Jordanus Maximus is his favorite book that he somehow had no knowledge of that until some Rabbi sent him that name? That is really just asking me to swallow a bit too much malarkey.

[Jeffrey]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8856218871691609737&hl=en#

Bill Cooper and Jordan Maxwell.

This video really highlights the descrepancies.

Actually, I never realized Cooper read from Maxwells books during the Babylon Series.

[Fred Steeves]

Tell you what, I don't know how long I could talk to Chris White, before I would just have to disengage. Thanks for that Kristin.

[Unified Serenity]

re: your concern Maxwell is 'undermining' Christianity...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFmeDfsv4j8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-1hdqNDQ9E

Unfortunately, and it is not easy for me either, as I am no 'Atheist' or 'Sun Worshipper' (I am still wading through it...) but these guys are serious, methodical, and detailed, it's above board, on the table, take it or leave it... no guessing, or hard to interpret information sources here... Not to distract but this is part of the equation too... We are ALL learning, ALL on the path, all being exposed, this is the age of Revelations perhaps, but there is a theory that the Bible does create it's own future, on one side and the elites use it as a 'Play book' on the other side much as Frank Herbert played up in Dune... after all, it does appear they wrote it... I have heard the original 'Christians' were originally called 'Followers of the Way' (sounds a bit Eastern philosophical to me...) so even the word 'Christian' has been tacked on after the fact for us... let's face it, this is bigger then what all of us put together know... but I agree with on one thing...

the bottom line is trying to find the Truth, in order to live in accordance with it, It is turning out for me that is a journey more then a destination...

and respect to you Timberwolf, no harm, this thread is moving fast, and Vivek nice interview, critic guy definitely lost my vote, he is just jumping all over Jordan, it's funny people believe in Demons but find it hard to accept Angelic beings, then again what is demonic? what is angelic?

I have not listened to this yet, but I do not want this thread derailed into the truths about Christianity. I am fully happy to have another thread on that subject as a polite discussion and researched information. I just think while it does tie in to this topic it would be best as it's own thread discussed there please.

[Unified Serenity]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8856218871691609737&hl=en#

Bill Cooper and Jordan Maxwell.

This video really highlights the descrepancies.

Actually, I never realized Cooper read from Maxwells books during the Babylon Series.

Wow, this is better than the OP video! Thanks Vivek! I gain no pleasure in debunking Maxwell. I do take joy in revealing what the hell has been going on with how we are being manipulated to go back to the Old time Religion of Babylon just as prophesied we would in the last days. People are doing it all over the place by doing exactly what this video shows by claiming Christianity is a fraud, and the real truth is in the earlier religions. Thanks for posting this, excellent explanation. I love the explanation over and over that Cooper is reading Maxwell's book, and there is no way to say that Maxwell is just repeating the mystery schools as reading it but not believing it. Maxwell says he believes this stuff which is the illuminaties faith in mystery Babylon.

[sigma6]

Hmm, very interesting, very candid... not entirely inconsistent.... and re: topic I do appreciate your concern, re: Jordan - but he does deny it... None the less, when you check it out, I believe you will see it provides overwhelming support for a Roman manipulation of an offshoot Jewish movement that was by definition, anti-institutional, superimposing upon it an institution ... a military empire transformed into a Religious empire, pure deception by a desperate empire losing it's grip on world power, and thus lends support to what Jordan is saying regarding Biblical interpretation and the NWO, (search Empire of the City - World Superstate) the relationship between the two, etc... they do tie in... that's what is so crazy about all this.

Again I can't stress enough, every time I reach a vista of new information I only find a higher mountain in the distance... the chain of history is unbroken and does go back thousands of years. We are just witnessing a 'quickening' ie tsunami of data points, faster then we can connect the dots because of the exponential increase in technology and information, which I will agree may have been alluded to in biblical text as well... point is, there is a bigger picture here, Jordan isn't, can't be, a NWO agent if you check out some of his other videos ... he is 'sloppy' at worst

[Awakened]

I have to first point out that I came across this web-site and joined it in hopes of connecting and sharing with other like-minded individuals. As well, I honestly had no idea who Jordan Maxwell was or is, and had never heard of him until this discussion. I have never looked to others for answers, but have always looked more within myself.

I will say however that listening to the radio phone-in with Jordan Maxwell explaining to Chris White about his 'encounter' with what he believes to be "angels", did not sit right with me. While I am no "expert" and I do not claim to be, I am someone who has had many odd encounters and experiences throughout my life, and do feel that I know what I am talking about. I am quite certain that I can quite reliably refer to my experiences.

I have had many "encounters" with deceased relatives, as well as what I would describe as angels and aliens. (I prefer to call the aliens I have had encounters with, my space family).

I have been given many, many premonitions of things to come that did eventually come to pass and were ironically 100 % correct. I have been given information and ideas about things I knew nothing of, which I end up discovering to be true. My point, without going into great detail is this, Jordan Maxwell discussed being in "awe" when in the presence of these so-called angels he encounters. He describes being "respectful", and he talks about "fearing" these "all powerful beings". He then makes reference to the bible etc.

Many of my "encounters" with deceased relatives, as well as with angels and aliens have weirded me out to say the very least. But at no time did I ever, for even a moment feel any type of fear.

My encounters with what I believed were angels and aliens only left me in complete and utter awe. The immense unconditional love I felt from these beings was so intense that I cried. Yes, I wanted to fall to my knees in reverence. The outpouring of love from these things was just so utterly intense. I have never experienced or felt anything like it. The only thing that is somewhat similar that I can relate it to, is the intense love I felt the very first time I held and saw my newborn baby. The unbelieveable outpouring of love I felt for my child, that was simply too strong for me to even find the proper words to describe, is exactly what I felt emanating from these angels and aliens I have encountered.

So, could it be possible that perhaps Jordan Maxwell did infact encounter beings that were less than positive?

I find it rather interesting that so many are so quick to defend Jordan Maxwell without even checking out the video or evidence for yourself. Many of you talk of "seeking the truth", yet are very closed off if something differs from your belief system. Perhaps you are not as "open" as you believe yourself to be. :confused:

[Jeffrey]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8856218871691609737&hl=en#

Bill Cooper and Jordan Maxwell.

This video really highlights the descrepancies.

Actually, I never realized Cooper read from Maxwells books during the Babylon Series.

Wow, this is better than the OP video! Thanks Vivek! I gain no pleasure in debunking Maxwell. I do take joy in revealing what the hell has been going on with how we are being manipulated to go back to the Old time Religion of Babylon just as prophesied we would in the last days. People are doing it all over the place by doing exactly what this video shows by claiming Christianity is a fraud, and the real truth is in the earlier religions. Thanks for posting this, excellent explanation. I love the explanation over and over that Cooper is reading Maxwell's book, and there is no way to say that Maxwell is just repeating the mystery schools as reading it but not believing it. Maxwell says he believes this stuff which is the illuminaties faith in mystery Babylon.

It really comes down to Jesus Christ versus mystery Babylon. Many Christians average out Maxwell's contributions like this:

1) Maxwell sheds light on Freemasonry/Illuminati/New World Order plans
2) Maxwell supports mystery Babylon theories, thereby undermining the authenticity of Jesus Christ and Christianity
3) Mystery Babylon is the religion of the enemy and they hate Christianity

So, 2 and 3 tip the scales enough for justifying (according to Mr. White) the opinion that Maxwell is colluding with the conspirators. I don't think it can be averaged out like that. It's got to be picked apart. Set all the stuff about religion aside and there still would be a conspiracy, and it still would be Luciferian with or without religion.

[sigma6]

got it, watched it, it's in the 'library', but how honest is it to focus on one video against his other 50 to a 100 out there? how 'truthful' is that? Have you guys watched any of those? You will soon see this is 'bigger' then just whether Jordan is perfect in his knowledge... We're talking some pretty fringe topics here... and I don't buy into what is 'politically correct' either, as that was a term used by communist and Edward Bernays... (see the Century of Self) This is called a gray area for good reason, a study on colour perception by Eastman Kodak (no less) showed that gray will change it's tint depending on the colours adjacent to it, an apt metaphor.... btw interesting experiences Awakened... meanwhile the rest of us are still 'awakening' (as still in process...)

[Unified Serenity]

I find it interesting that Maxwell talks about the British Israel movement or Anglo-Israel movement as part of the NWO. He then goes into the Illuminati New covenant is 500 years old. Word games are funny things. My bible speaks of God making a New Covenant with Israel not like the first covenant which they broke which was the law written on stone tablets and their promise they broke to obey it, but a New covenant of the law written upon their hearts that they would be as one by a unified heart relationship. So, we have plays on words here. America was called the New World, and I think there was a plan to use this as a means to gain power and control the world, but it does not negate the coming New World after the Millennial kingdom as prophesied in the bible.

Sometimes it's hard to break down where Maxwell really stands. The church once taken over by the Roman's incorporated the old symbolism and Babylonian methods, but that does not mean the foundation which Jesus laid was a take off on the Babylonian system. It just means Lucifer is pretty smart and he tries to twist anything of God here on earth and he's pretty darn good at it. Jesus also said he came to gather back the lost sheep of the house of Israel who had been scattered amongst the nations. He was not talking about Judah. Judah knew exactly who they were, and they were not lost. It was the other ten tribes who God divorced and sent over the caucus mountains who became known as Caucasians. It is a historical fact that these tribes did this. Now are all caucasians Israel? I don't know that. I do know that history proves out they went to Scotland, Ireland, England, and other areas of Europe. My point is that Maxwell does not like this idea, and he throws it out as some NWO agenda and I do not see that in their system. The NWO is going to be a one world system of government, religion, and control with Lucifer as it's shining one. His children, the Kenites, hate Israel, and there is no way they would work with Israel. Oh, they will use Israel, but work with them? No, we are as stupid and stiff necked as we were all those thousands of years ago.

[Cartomancer]

Jordan Maxwell has all kinds of useful information and ideas. He does kind of espouse a "Zeitgeist" (movie) kind of point of view about the creation of all faiths and belief systems including Christianity. Jordan's information like David Icke, Wilcock, Hoagland, Melchezidek, and others must be taken with a grain of salt and one must discern the parts of their theories that resonate with them. If you are a conservative Christian you are not going to like Jordan Maxwell.

I believe the people who created the United States wanted people like Jordan to be able to think and believe what ever they choose to without harassment or being judged. If Jordan jumps on the mass arrest bandwagon then I may take part in disapproval but he is just o.k. with me and I find him relatively unoffensive.

Chris White also has a lot of interesting things to day. I wholly disagree with his assumption that the Romans did not manipulate or change the scope of Christianity. That is one of the most out of touch uniformed statements I have heard him make. The Romans didn't do anything without homogenizing it and bending it to their will. I think Christians need to see that the Theosophist movement is their enemy and not others. Theosophy ultimately leads to fascism just as it did in Germany.

[Kristin]

Here is Jordan Maxwell, Paul Tice, and Alan Shaw's (all co-written) "That Old Religion". I down loaded a free copy that was available on line for any who are interested. I believe the work is excellent and well researched.

I think that it is great that Chris White is a strong defender of his faith. I do not however confuse defence of one's faith with truth, or confuse well thought out research with trying to uphold an Illuminati agenda. Jordan Maxwell has very strong Christian based beliefs himself.

I personally have a great respect for Jordan, but never thought him or anyone else was perfect by any means. I hope that through looking at both sides of the story with an open mind we can see also motivations by both parties are important here and there is an earnest desire to look at truth from both. One motivated by revealing history, the other motivated by faith and a desire to prove it.

A good read for any who are interested.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

http://dc366.4shared.com/download/Qy27UZe4/Jordan_Maxwell_-_That_Old_Time.pdf?tsid=20120710-171808-eb43d897

[Unified Serenity]

got it, watched it, it's in the 'library', but how honest is it to focus on one video against his other 50 to a 100 out there? how 'truthful' is that? Have you guys watched any of those? You will soon see this is 'bigger' then just whether Jordan is perfect in his knowledge... We're talking some pretty fringe topics here... and I don't buy into what is 'politically correct' either, as that was a term used by communist and Edward Bernays... (see the Century of Self) This is called a gray area for good reason, a study on colour perception by Eastman Kodak (no less) showed that gray will change it's tint depending on the colours adjacent to it, an apt metaphor.... btw interesting experiences Awakened... meanwhile the rest of us are still 'awakening' (as still in process...)

I have watched a lot of Maxwell's videos and as I said in an earlier post, this one has me learning a few new things .. the one in the OP. It's not cherry picking, these are Maxwell's beliefs and he is sending a message of how stupid anyone is who thinks they know what the bible means, and he then brings up things that are factually just wrong to prove it. I am a stickler for being truthful and when you screw up you admit it. You don't ignore it or pretend you didn't say it. You fix it if you believe it's wrong. Show me where Maxwell now does not believe manna was a mushroom the people ate to talk to God. Show me where Maxwell now understands there was a King Shlomo and therefore his whole teaching on Solomon was wrong. Show me where any number of the facts brought up in that video are addressed by Maxwell and he admits his work was not quite accurate. I haven't found it yet and I am looking. I think he very much believes in the Theosophical religion and just as the other video posted about Cooper debunking Maxwell, we see the one and only times he wiggles out of being caught and agrees it's all symbolic and not actually Christians stealing an older religion and using it's terms and Jesus is the Sun I mean Son of God.

It's all telling on many levels. An honest person corrects their errors and thanks the person who pointed it out. A dishonest person avoids it, calls names, and accuses you of having a nefarious agenda because you dared to point it out.

[21CC]

I followed the assigned link of the term "[B]sociopath" in the OP to try to undertand what felt like slander. I decided that none of the criteria significantly (any more than to you or me) applied to J-Max. :confused:

[Unified Serenity]

I followed the assigned link of the term "[B]sociopath" in the OP to try to undertand what felt like slander. I decided that none of the criteria significantly (any more than to you or me) applied to J-Max. :confused:

I find pathological lying and blaming others very sociopathic. He exhibits many qualities on that list imho, but we can agree to disagree.

[MMA_Fan]

... and was astounded when Hall gifted him his entire esoteric library upon his death.

Did he?

I read the biography of Hall (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Master-Mysteries-Life-Manly-Palmer/dp/193417002X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341945010&sr=8-1) a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was the PRS (http://prs.org/wpcms/) he gave it too?

I will have to borrow the book back and check.

I'd encourage anyone to read that book and listen to his talks, especially if they think Manly P. Hall was in any way a malevolent person.
Flawed like the rest of us, but not an evil man.

[Ceedub]

I followed the assigned link of the term "[B]sociopath" in the OP to try to undertand what felt like slander. I decided that none of the criteria significantly (any more than to you or me) applied to J-Max. :confused:

I find pathological lying and blaming others very sociopathic. He exhibits many qualities on that list imho, but we can agree to disagree.

I concur with 21cc that the characterization of J-Max as "very sociopathic" to be slanderous if not backed up and illuminated a little further. Agreeing to disagree seems a bit of a cop out in light of the link you provided to the term sociopathic which included the DSM IV definition.

Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)


1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:
A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest.
B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases.
C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive.
D. Repeated assaults on others.
E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety.
F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations.
G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others.

2. At least eighteen years in age.

3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen.

4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder.


I respect your opinions but I do not agree to disagree as this is not just an opinion but a diagnosis and a slanderous one at that.

Respectfully CW

[21CC]

I followed the assigned link of the term "[B]sociopath" in the OP to try to undertand what felt like slander. I decided that none of the criteria significantly (any more than to you or me) applied to J-Max. :confused:

I find pathological lying and blaming others very sociopathic. He exhibits many qualities on that list imho, but we can agree to disagree.

It takes consent and usually more than one individual to enter into an agreement, however. It is only now that I agree to an agreement.

[SEAM]

Somewhat off topic, but hopefully relevant.. One (Late) Professor Smiley of Cornell thinks Christ is Oil! I think a lot of this stuff is the old school text, which I happen to fully endorse.. no internet to cloud the mind... just good old fashion research...

Sorry I can't copy and paste:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/52358943/PROOF-CHRIST-WAS-REALLY-KUNDALINI

[mountain_jim]

I also chafe at the assumptions made that anything associated with books and writings from The Theosophical Society is evil.

I can't recall in detail how much I read from Blavatsky and Hall years ago, as I don't own those books, borrowed what I did read....

But I still own Man, God, and The Universe, by I. K. Taimni, found great value in reading it, as well as these other smaller works from Quest Books:

The Glorious Presense - Ernest E. Wood (Vedanta Philosophy)
Esoteric Christianity - Annie Besant
Psychism and the Unconscious Mind - Theosophical Research Center



Quest Books are published by the Theosophical Society In America, a branch of a world organization dedicated to the promotion of brotherhood and the encouragement of the study of religion, philosophy, and science, to the end that man may better understand himself and his place in the universe. The Society stands for complete freedom of individual search and belief. Quest Books are offered as a contribution to man's search for truth.

[sigma6]

I find it interesting that Maxwell talks about the British Israel movement or Anglo-Israel movement as part of the NWO

Not sure whether your agreeing or disagreeing, but if they ain't then who is? (here I would reference Empire of the City - World Superstate, it is long but thorough and gives you a perspective of history from a Freemason point of view, a Freemason's daughter in fact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwnWni9HLEY (note: it talks about 9/11, but that is just one angle, it explains in great detail the historical relationship between Isreal, Great Britain, the Vatican (Rome) and the origin of the 'Hebrews' which actually originated out of Egypt, thus the heavy emphasis of Egypt over the true originating culture of the last 6000 years (this cycle) which by all rights is the Sumerians, (but that a study of that culture would really blow the cover off the matrix... one possible reason for the attack on Bagdad and the looting of the Museum Saddam was going to present to the world...)


He then goes into the Illuminati New covenant is 500 years old. Word games are funny things.
Illuminati is an open term, anyone who is rich beyond the pleb legal system who is bent on maintaining the status quo might be termed an Illuminati, Freemasons, Vatican, Inner City of London (Freemasons) Washington DC, CIA Drug Cartel, Banker Cabalists, Ashakanazi Zionists Jews, etc...


My bible speaks of God making a New Covenant with Israel not like the first covenant which they broke which was the law written on stone tablets and their promise they broke to obey it, but a New covenant of the law written upon their hearts
To this all I can say is everyone has broken both covenants, as no one according to the Biblical creed is worthy, or capable or earning a status of worthiness, short of Jesus himself... (ie. we ALL fall short, we all need his 'sacrifice', forgiveness, etc) I have to admit that is a humbling thought... and if I had to look for a Roman manipulative angle assuming you have watched the vids I presented and realized they 'had' (at least at one point) totally controlled that book... the 'other interpretation' is that it takes self empowerment completely out of our hands... (as opposed to; your faith in the Lord, trust in him, etc... ) but that is by definition how the occult part works doesn't it, ie. don't look too close here, the sign says 'occult' ie. the 'Roman' word for hidden... let's face it the Bible is not an unequivocal source but may be purposely designed to be ambiguous so that anyone can superimpose a manifold number of interpretations, esoteric, or otherwise, and one of the biggest questions I got from the videos, if it was truly and purely the word of God, then why didn't he keep original copies intact?, as the earliest version was well after the council of Nicea, ie. about 400 AD, the source; - the Vatican, which has nothing to do with Jesus and what he taught, they have the ability to create documents that cannot be detected by experts since they have vallum and ink that dates farther back than a thousand years, so they can recreate any 'historical' documentation they want... these aren't just run of the mill videos, they will open the eyes of the the hardiest skeptic, I still don't want to believe them, but for now it's not really refutable...


that they would be as one by a unified heart relationship. So, we have plays on words here. America was called the New World, and I think there was a plan to use this as a means to gain power and control the world, but it does not negate the coming New World after the Millennial kingdom as prophesied in the bible. I think this is proof, how the the NWO (in this case the Freemasons) use the Bible as their 'playbook'... could there be a higher master plan... 'God' only knows... (and those who believe in the unblemished book of the Bible)


Sometimes it's hard to break down where Maxwell really stands. The church once taken over by the Roman's incorporated the old symbolism and Babylonian methods, but that does not mean the foundation which Jesus laid was a take off on the Babylonian system.
Again according to Erhman, and the other vid, the 'church' wasn't taken over by the Romans, it was flat out created by the Romans...

Another hard core archeological evidence of this is Simcha Jacobovici's "Secrets of Christianity/Decoding the Ancients"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD0eSqFJ7J4
We can't have it both ways, ie. it's either the perfectly recorded unblemished word of God or it was written and crafted by the Roman Vatican with its vast resources and army of scholars. It's one or the other... whether Lucifer is responsible or not, and Jesus himself never wrote a book of the Bible, nor did he command anyone to write or memorialize the gospels in his name.


It just means Lucifer is pretty smart and he tries to twist anything of God here on earth and he's pretty darn good at it. Jesus also said he came to gather back the lost sheep of the house of Israel who had been scattered amongst the nations. He was not talking about Judah. Judah knew exactly who they were, and they were not lost. It was the other ten tribes who God divorced and sent over the caucus mountains who became known as Caucasians. It is a historical fact that these tribes did this. Now are all caucasians Israel? I don't know that. I do know that history proves out they went to Scotland, Ireland, England, and other areas of Europe. My point is that Maxwell does not like this idea, and he throws it out as some NWO agenda and I do not see that in their system. The NWO is going to be a one world system of government, religion, and control with Lucifer as it's shining one. His children, the Kenites, hate Israel, and there is no way they would work with Israel. Oh, they will use Israel, but work with them? No, we are as stupid and stiff necked as we were all those thousands of years ago.

That may be, it is just as valid an interpretation as any other... but I am sure many may find things to question just as any other... I am going to predict if you truly follow the 'evidence' with an open mind, apart from what your 'faith' instructs you after watching Empire of the City, Bart Ehrman, The Empty Tomb, and there are just so many others, pointing to how 'borrowed' the narrative of the Bible is... (Sumerian reference (circa 4000 BC) to 'Eden1' and 'Adamu' you will have some serious questions... I guess what I am saying is let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater... in either case, as there is more that we don't know then what we do, more often then not.

welcome to the Matrix... ("why do my eyes hurt?... because you have never used them before...")

[Carmen]

I must say, Unified Serenity, your thread has opened up a very lively and interesting discussion, which is great. Theosophy was my first introduction to things esoteric. Most of it I couldn't understand at the time but I found it fascinating. I have Manly P Hall's 'Secret Teachings of All Ages', and I really treasure this book. I've said in other threads that those who research, live and experience the esoteric sciences then share it through their writing are to be applauded. There is much wisdom to be gained and be inspired by. It's very easy to sit back and critisize those who put themselves out there. I don't care who they are or whether I like them or not, they are out there doing it. They are the 'Spiritual Warriors', warts and all. To me, they are to be admired. It can't be easy being subject to attack and ridicule when one is doing ones best to make a difference, to bring some light to a very controlled world.

[Unified Serenity]

I have read quite a bit of Theosophical works since about the 80's as I was very interested in it. My point in discussing what the video shares, is it's a little hard to do that without having watched it to see how JM is dealing with various topics. Those who don't know the info can't talk about it at all based on what he is saying. I have read a lot within alternative systems, and it seems some have an idea about me not founded in any facts whatsoever, but just emotional reactions. I find that typical on many forums where people dont wish to exam facts, but just shut down anyone who would think critically about a topic.

[Unified Serenity]

I must say, Unified Serenity, your thread has opened up a very lively and interesting discussion, which is great. Theosophy was my first introduction to things esoteric. Most of it I couldn't understand at the time but I found it fascinating. I have Manly P Hall's 'Secret Teachings of All Ages', and I really treasure this book. I've said in other threads that those who research, live and experience the esoteric sciences then share it through their writing are to be applauded. There is much wisdom to be gained and be inspired by. It's very easy to sit back and critisize those who put themselves out there. I don't care who they are or whether I like them or not, they are out there doing it. They are the 'Spiritual Warriors', warts and all. To me, they are to be admired. It can't be easy being subject to attack and ridicule when one is doing ones best to make a difference, to bring some light to a very controlled world.

I assume nothing, and others should not either. I look at the facts, weigh the evidence, and see if it lines up with the truth of their teachings. I don't quite understand this apparent need to assume one person is a "spiritual warrior" and because someone looks into the teachings and such they must not be or something akin to just ridiculing for the sake of it. If it does not ring true to you fine, but you really dont know anything about me carmen. I also don't equate misleading others through a message they like to hear as bringing light, but then again, many here seem to think Lucifer is a wonderful light messenger. That's their right, but we obviously see things very differently.

[Carmen]

Hmm! I have watched the first ten minutes of the video Uniified Serenity, and apart from the opening statements that what you put out you get back, the rest is a load of cobblers (lies). I will watch the rest this evening. Going by the first ten minutes, what he is saying is deeply flawed. So, I am inclined to agree with you. But, I still say that putting themselves out there is courageous.

My understanding of the old testament is different to many anyway. Jehovah, who led the children of Israel, for forty ruddy years!!, was a terranical god with a small 'g'. He was a misogamistic arsehole and not the God that I recognise.

[Cartomancer]

CHRIS WHITE DEBUNKED

I just listened to the Chris White's video again. That reminded me of something you would see on the CBN network or something. I kept expecting Jimmy Swaggert, Pat Roberts or Ernest Angley to chime in at any moment. I have to say that he is just as wrapped up in the wrong kind of dogma as many of the people that have been heavily criticized here lately. He isn't being objective about anything. His entire purpose is prove that his religion is better than anyone else's and that what ever he says is right etc. And, oh yeah, you are a Satan worshiper if you don't agree with him. Just the fact that he needs to value his faith by attacking someone else with a different view is very telling. If we have to see criticism of Maxwell lets at least see an rational unbiased one instead of a bunch of fear based I'm better than you crap.

I think its kind of funny. The ground Chris White is standing on is a quaking fear of made up b.s. that he can't prove empirically at all any more than Maxwell can prove his truth. Its all about faith. You just have to believe in it no matter how flimsy the evidence is or how long the after the fact the book was written and by whom? After they exterminated all of the people who worshiped Christ before Rome adapted it. First they kill them all and then realize their religion is just the thing for them. Then they consistently exterminated any opposing views that weren't of any use to them for the next 2000 years?

This is who you want to trust for the word? If you dig Christ you need to dig in and think about what the man's life was beyond all of the hype. You can almost guarantee that Christ's life was radically different than that portrayed in any book.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Did you know?

There is a difference between debunking a person and debunking their beliefs or research.

Now you know. And knowing is half the battle


http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=5016599709484040&id=9b8ac92da02820149492c402a9665d6f

[Jeffrey]

How do you know what portion of Blavatsky's material is channelled versus researched?

[Bill Ryan]

long time listener, first time caller...

Welcome. Good to have you here! :)


To Bill... Manly Hall gave Jordan a copy of a set of books, not his entire esoteric library... the library is a part of the school.

Thanks for that input. Here's the transcript from the Sept 2009 Camelot interview of Jordan -- one of Kerry's very best. It can be seen how I misunderstood that Hall had given Jordan his whole library. (The gift does seem to have been rather more than "a copy of a set of books", though!)

http://projectcamelot.org/lang/en/jordan_maxwell_interview_en.html






JM: Manly Palmer Hall, I believe, was one of the finest and most dearest men I have ever met in my life. He was not only charming, an extraordinarily brilliant mind, but he was one of the most decent and beautiful people that I have ever, personally, have ever met.

Manly Palmer Hall was an extraordinary teacher. He never promoted anything. He merely educated people, as: This is where this came from; this is where that came from; this is what that word means. So he was an educator. People have called him all kinds of names because he was a Mason. I knew him personally. I’ve been to his home. When he died, he left me a beautiful gift – all of his research journals, he left to me.

KC: That’s amazing.

JM: I was shocked when I got a phone call from the Philosophical Research Society in Los Angeles and Obadiah Harris, the president at that time, said: Mr. Hall wanted you to have something when he passed away.

And I said... "What is it?" I was in San Diego.

And he said... "I’m not going to tell you. Just come pick it up." So I drove up that day to Los Angeles from San Diego and it was all of the research journals of Manly Palmer Hall, he gave to me. And I consider that to be a monumental gift from a very powerful man.

KC: Did you find some clues there to follow out? [laughs]

JM: Tons of stuff there.

KC: Okay.

JM: Manly Palmer Hall, as I said, was one of the greatest teachers the world has ever known. In my humble opinion, I don’t think there’s ever been in any era of time a man to come close to what Manly Palmer Hall was able to do. Anyone who has an open mind – and of course, your mind is like a parachute: it doesn’t work if it’s not open – anyone who is intellectually honest, which you don’t find very much -- intellectually honest with an open mind, mature and intelligent person looking at the work of Manly Palmer Hall would have to say this is one of the greatest men that ever lived.

I don’t know how many... maybe 70 or 80 books on esoteric subjects of the whole world; over 46 sets of lectures, like six 90-minute audio lectures of 46 esoteric subjects of the world.

KC: Wonderful.

JM: Incredible. Plus thousands of lectures. Incidentally, I have everything he ever did. Every lecture he ever did I have, digitized. Monumental work. But he was a personal friend of mine and I loved him dearly. I’m saying this because there are so many people who put him down because he was a Mason. He was a wonderful teacher, a brilliant man, to which his detractors could not even hold a candle.

[Lazlo]

Jordan Maxwell has all kinds of useful information and ideas. He does kind of espouse a "Zeitgeist" (movie) kind of point of view about the creation of all faiths and belief systems including Christianity.

He should espouse those views as the Camelot interview says that the movie was entirely based on his work


http://projectcamelot.org/lang/en/jordan_maxwell_interview_en.html

DW: Where would the truth movement be without you? Specifically, Zeitgeist is a movie that was in the top five most-viewed on Google Video for like a year at least and I would like the Project Camelot viewers to be apprised of the situation in regards to your involvement with Zeitgeist because it seems like Management, as I call them, put you in a position in which the whole conspiracy theory movement wouldn’t be anywhere near what it is now if it wasn’t for your influence.

JM: Yes, Zeitgeist is a two-hour movie made by a guy named Peter Joseph in New York. I didn’t know anything about it, but Peter Joseph produced a two-hour video and the last that we heard... because on Zeitgeist it was one of the first times Google pulled the counter off of something that’s on Google Video? Usually it would have a counter, how many people have seen this video. They pulled the counter. They pulled it, I think it was at 28 million when they pulled it and that was like a year-and-a-half ago.

KC: And that’s based all on your work, isn’t it?

JM: All of it was based on my work. Jeff Rense had Peter Joseph... and you can go to my website, www.Jordanmaxwell.com , and go to the audio/video page. One of the first entries is a big banner saying Zeitgeist Interview, and it’s only about five minutes long.

But Jeff Rense interviewed Peter Joseph about Zeitgeist and talked about how, you know, they pulled the counter a year-and-a-half ago at 28 million and it’s probably more than 50 million now.

BUT HE SAID: Why did you make this video?

AND HE [Peter Joseph] SAID: Because the whole thing was Jordan Maxwell’s work. I was listening to him; I’ve been following his work and I just decided since he hasn’t done anything, I will.

So he put all of my work together on religion, ancient theology, the Federal Reserve, banking, and 9/11 and all that nonsense, and put it all together into a two-hour video called Zeitgeist, which I am told by people...

My friends in Hollywood (and I’ve lived in Hollywood for 48 years) my friends have said that if they had 28 million and they pulled it off a year ago; probably seen by 50 million – that’s a very good showing in Hollywood! If you can get 50 million people watching something that represents you, that’s pretty heady stuff in Hollywood.

KC: Absolutely.

[Snoweagle]

When Eric Von Daniken released Chariots of the Gods in the 1970s to the world, who could have anticipated the amazing interest across all levels of the community to the startling revelations made about gods, angles and aliens. We loved it. Every little snippet of archaeological discovery was chocolate brownies smothered in strawberry ice cream. We couldn't get enough:-)
Most of it was later researched or hidden. Today we face the same problems that Von Daniken had. What real truth known is hidden deeply away from the public and what is portrayed as truth requires backward engineering through the gamut of idolatrous scriptures, misconstrued translation and the unverifiable.

So attacking Jordan Maxwell serves no purpose other than to confirm that the alternative media will be heavily influenced by misinformants, disinformationalists and unemployed writers:-) And lookee here, debunk heaven, everyone else is wrong except the those that quote the book of evil, the bible.
Whether he is right or wrong is immaterial. He introduced thousands, nay millions, to another world of research to topics many of us would not have normally ventured. His success is immeasurable. Am overjoyed that he has been attacked by this "debunk" claim, which has more value these days than the Nobel prize. (valueless when Obama (did Gore get it as well, or did Gore invent that as well) is awarded)
You see, the bottom line is, do your own research. Jordan Maxwell will tell you not to believe him but to do your own investigation and based on that, United Serenity, you have a fail. If you had presented alternative information contrary to current beliefs then state your case and we would assimilate and review collectively here within this fine forum. But you didn't; choosing to present an orchestrated commissioned piece of secular garbage, I suspect professionally prepared, to discredit an established and respected orator who lifted the veil of secrecy impacting the style of our governance and therefore us.

So now I would like to raise the "spirits" with the voice of Avalonians in a sing song as Jordan Maxwell is "Simply the Best" and United Serenity, you're not:-)

I call you, when I need you, my hearts on fire
You come to me, Come to me, wild and wild

You come to me, give me everything I need
Give me a lifetime of promises and a world of dreams
Speak the language of love like you know what it means
And it cant be wrong, take me heart and make it strong, Jordan

You're simply the best, better than all the rest, better than anyone, anyone I've ever met
I'm stuck on your heart, I hang on every word you say
Tear us apart? ...Oh Jordan I would rather be dead

In your heart I see the start of every night and day,
In you eyes, I get lost, I get washed away
Just as long as I'm here in your qualms, I could be in no better place . . .

You're simply the best, better than all the rest, better than anyone, anyone I've ever met
I'm stuck on your heart, I hang on every word you say
Tear us apart? ...Oh Jordan I would rather be dead

It's the time you leave me I start losing control, you're walking away with my heart and soul
I can feel you even when I'm alone, oh Jordan don't let go!

And your the best, better than all the rest
better than anyone, anyone
I've ever met!
I'm stuck on your heart, I hang on every word you say
Tear us apart? Jordan, I would rather be dead
ohh you're the best!
(Ike & Tina Turner & The Ikettes) (freaky how Ike and Tina were able to facilitate Jordans name into the verses, maybe David Wilcocks dreams should have seen this, whadya say US?)
dUvPf_zuySA

[Unified Serenity]

Hmm! I have watched the first ten minutes of the video Uniified Serenity, and apart from the opening statements that what you put out you get back, the rest is a load of cobblers (lies). I will watch the rest this evening. Going by the first ten minutes, what he is saying is deeply flawed. So, I am inclined to agree with you. But, I still say that putting themselves out there is courageous.

My understanding of the old testament is different to many anyway. Jehovah, who led the children of Israel, for forty ruddy years!!, was a terranical god with a small 'g'. He was a misogamistic arsehole and not the God that I recognise.

Carmen,

I respect your right to view the bible that way. What you did not do is say they wandered around the Sinai, because of the sin against the eye. That would be more like what I saw from what Maxwell was saying. Granted, that example is made up on my part, but it's to the point of what I am getting at. Or I could also add, that it's called the Sinai because of the Sin of the Hebrews who were against the all seeing eye. See my point?

[Unified Serenity]

CHRIS WHITE DEBUNKED

I just listened to the Chris White's video again. That reminded me of something you would see on the CBN network or something. I kept expecting Jimmy Swaggert, Pat Roberts or Ernest Angley to chime in at any moment. I have to say that he is just as wrapped up in the wrong kind of dogma as many of the people that have been heavily criticized here lately. He isn't being objective about anything. His entire purpose is prove that his religion is better than anyone else's and that what ever he says is right etc. And, oh yeah, you are a Satan worshiper if you don't agree with him. Just the fact that he needs to value his faith by attacking someone else with a different view is very telling. If we have to see criticism of Maxwell lets at least see an rational unbiased one instead of a bunch of fear based I'm better than you crap.

I think its kind of funny. The ground Chris White is standing on is a quaking fear of made up b.s. that he can't prove empirically at all any more than Maxwell can prove his truth. Its all about faith. You just have to believe in it no matter how flimsy the evidence is or how long the after the fact the book was written and by whom? After they exterminated all of the people who worshiped Christ before Rome adapted it. First they kill them all and then realize their religion is just the thing for them. Then they consistently exterminated any opposing views that weren't of any use to them for the next 2000 years?

This is who you want to trust for the word? If you dig Christ you need to dig in and think about what the man's life was beyond all of the hype. You can almost guarantee that Christ's life was radically different than that portrayed in any book.

I would really appreciate it if you would take a section of the video you disagree with what Chris points out compaired to what JM was saying. Please site the start and end point so we can watch it and maybe you can elucidate on something actually in the video and not school me on the terrible man Chris White is for pointing these things out. Please pick one of the topics he brings up and shows how JM is off course we can discuss it in a mature manner.

Thank you for taking the time to deal with the video.

[Unified Serenity]

Did you know?

There is a difference between debunking a person and debunking their beliefs or research.

Now you know. And knowing is half the battle



http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=5016599709484040&id=9b8ac92da02820149492c402a9665d6f

You know whiskey, that is a good point. I sort of titled it what the video was titled, but one can certainly have a teaching wrong and it does not make them bad in all research. So, I concede that point. I do find it quite interesting that I have yet to see a post actually deal with any of the points of the video. That would be most refreshing. I guess my reaction to what I saw in the video was the audacity for JM to say that about Solomon and the outright misrepresentation of what Manna was according to the bible. I just gave of course the cute word smithing of "sinai" and how one could play with that. It's catchy, but not very scholarly.

[Unified Serenity]

it seems some have an idea about me not founded in any facts whatsoever, but just emotional reactions. I find that typical on many forums where people dont wish to exam facts, but just shut down anyone who would think critically about a topic.

it seems some have an idea about Blavatsky not founded in any facts whatsoever, but just emotional reactions. I find that typical on many forums where people don't wish to examine facts, but just shut down anyone who would think critically about a topic.

Not trying to go after you US, merely trying to point out how your own words and feelings about certain responses to your thread can be applied to the bigger conversation at hand.

Hey A.D., I appreciate your point, and I do have some serious issues with Blavatsky and what she says regarding the bible, Christianity, religion and her love of Lucifer the misunderstood bringer of light. I have done a lot of research into the false messiah stuff that tries to say there were all these "messiah" stories predating Jesus life and written texts about it, when in face there are no existing texts saying this prior to 120 AD.. Cooper took this on regarding this intense what seems like hatred Christianity by those who believe in this stuff as they accuse Christianity of stealing their stories when in fact it's the other way around and all twisted at that. I am trying to keep my wording in check right now, but from what I can see it's like I posted a thread bringing into question a near saint here on Avalon and it's like the lions came roaring out of the cages in the gladiator arena all at once because they want some blood. It's ok, I am well protected, LOL.

[Fred Steeves]

I am trying to keep my wording in check right now, but from what I can see it's like I posted a thread bringing into question a near saint here on Avalon and it's like the lions came roaring out of the cages in the gladiator arena all at once because they want some blood. It's ok, I am well protected, LOL.

Geez US, Really? Maybe we should fudge that ole 1st Ammendment around a bit to suit your cause here? Also, playing the victim card now doesn't become you. I'm just sayin...

By the way, did you ever consider atleast showing Jordan Maxwell, the actual person(he is a person), the respect of informing him of the "evidence" you have on him, and that you were planning on presenting a "Jordan Maxwell Debunked" thread, on one of the most read forums of this type on the internet?

He's easily gotten hold of, unless you don't care for dissenting opinions?

[Carmen]

US, I'm not that familiar with the bible, just a little from my Anglican upbringing, but what is, "the sin against the eye"?

[Unified Serenity]

US, I'm not that familiar with the bible, just a little from my Anglican upbringing, but what is, "the sin against the eye"?

Well, thanks for proving my point about people not really reading my posts or dealing with the OP. I said that was not a real example but the sort of thing I see JM doing in the video regarding how the words mean things that do not compute to real linguistics. It's just an example.

"edit" If you are going to call me to task for being offended by JM's skewed presentation as shown in the video, please do the same for every other forum member who chooses to take others to task in any other arena. I thought this was a forum for discussing facts, information, and seeking truth, but as yet, still no one wants to actually deal with the points in the video or the things I have shared that are part of it. Until that happens, I really don't think we have much to discuss here. It's quite obvious you all want to do anything but that. So, the OP is not of interest, just damning the person who dares to notice discrepancies. I fall on the sword of having offended the members for posting this video which should never have been made and promise to never question on Avalon another piece of information.. ok, I promise it for 1 week.

[MoSh187]

It was fairly suynchronistic today. After a year of not even looking into conspiracy theory that today I re-watched "David Icke Debunked." (I've seen it before last year) that I came onto this website and found that there was a chris white topic. I'm not a christian But Chris brings up some very valid voids. I agree that most of these channelled entities who's theosophical views have infiltrated the truth movement is a very worthy cause to investigate. Forget attacks on Maxwell or David Icke. Though it's hard to understand where chris white is coming from until you watch some of his videos and what his views really are. In my investigations of the NWO and what they believe to be spiritual truth mirrors exactly the kind of spirituality that exists within the truth movement. I've noticed this far before I have ever watched Chris White's videos.

Don't take my word for it. But watch David Icke debunked with a slightly open mind. Suspend your emotions and beliefs only temporarily to critically view what is being presented in that video.

It goes in depth later on (In the video). That humanity is being prepared: After a devastating event (This is chris white's view) Engineered by the NWO that will have humanity on it's knees. The X factor (stated by david Icke) will come into play, which might be full disclosure of aliens. Who claim that they have created humankind and are here to save us from ourselves and help humanity evolve to a new paradigm. Among these entities is a single Ruler (Which is supposed to be the REAL biblical anti christ) which will help bring forth the end times Yadda yadda yadda.

Now what I find Fascinating is this: At the same time I discovered chris white and his views on how the end times might come into play. I especially paid attention to the symbolical "Anti christ". Avalon came out with it's new video on Inelia benz. She states that not only is there an owner of the earth. but there are owners of each part of the globe. and that these highly evolved beings are returning.

I also watched an interview done by Camelot some years ago with bob Dean. He claims he actually travelled to other planets to meet these advanced beings. And also states that and Owner of Planet earth will Return. Now... my prepared mind put the two and two together. I emailed chris white and pointed out what I had learned that corroborated his claims. This is what he told me: "I think Project Camelot/Avalon is very bad news"

[Unified Serenity]

It was fairly suynchronistic today. After a year of not even looking into conspiracy theory that today I re-watched "David Icke Debunked." (I've seen it before last year) that I came onto this website and found that there was a chris white topic. I'm not a christian But Chris brings up some very valid voids. I agree that most of these channelled entities who's theosophical views have infiltrated the truth movement is a very worthy cause to investigate. Forget attacks on Maxwell or David Icke. Though it's hard to understand where chris white is coming from until you watch some of his videos and what his views really are. In my investigations of the NWO and what they believe to be spiritual truth mirrors exactly the kind of spirituality that exists within the truth movement. I've noticed this far before I have ever watched Chris White's videos.

Don't take my word for it. But watch David Icke debunked with a slightly open mind. Suspend your emotions and beliefs only temporarily to critically view what is being presented in that video.

It goes in depth later on (In the video). That humanity is being prepared: After a devastating event (This is chris white's view) Engineered by the NWO that will have humanity on it's knees. The X factor (stated by david Icke) will come into play, which might be full disclosure of aliens. Who claim that they have created humankind and are here to save us from ourselves and help humanity evolve to a new paradigm. Among these entities is a single Ruler (Which is supposed to be the REAL biblical anti christ) which will help bring forth the end times Yadda yadda yadda.

Now what I find Fascinating is this: At the same time I discovered chris white and his views on how the end times might come into play. I especially paid attention to the symbolical "Anti christ". Avalon came out with it's new video on Inelia benz. She states that not only is there an owner of the earth. but there are owners of each part of the globe. and that these highly evolved beings are returning.

I also watched an interview done by Camelot some years ago with bob Dean. He claims he actually travelled to other planets to meet these advanced beings. And also states that and Owner of Planet earth will Return. Now... my prepared mind put the two and two together. I emailed chris white and pointed out what I had learned that corroborated his claims. This is what he told me: "I think Project Camelot/Avalon is very bad news"

Thanks for sharing this viewpoint. I don't think PA is bad news. I happen to like many of the members here and find they have very sincere hearts. I do come from what appears to be a minority viewpoint here, but that's ok. As long as we all show respect for one anothers views, I'm copacetic with it. I am reminded of the old Petra song, "Stained glass windows". I think this is the perfect place to sojourn.

ahcvBSbdces

[MoSh187]

I don't share hias beliefs either that PA is bad. But I have found some truth in what he has presented.

[gripreaper]

Jordan Maxwell's most recent interview.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-3IEh7jNjM&feature=player_embedded

[jagman]

Question with boldness even the existance of God. For if there be a God he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind-folded
fear. T.J. Good job US. Your on your way in becoming a thorn in Avalon side lol just kidn ya.

[watchZEITGEISTnow]

after listening to this:
rh57aSvIGfs
Jordan rebuts the BS easily.
Chris White comes off as a complete ignorant, arrogant twat!

He is highly suspect in my view.

**edit to add Who exactly is Chris White? Any links to clue up on this one?

[gripreaper]

after listening to this:
rh57aSvIGfs
Thanks for uploading this.

On another note, Jordan speaks very highly of Santos Bonacci, and I'm going to make a prediction right here: Jordan is now 71, so when he passes, he will give all of his life's work, along with Manly Hall's work which was given to him, to Santos. Santos is the current astrotheologian, along with Michael Tsarion, for those who don't know.

[watchZEITGEISTnow]

How can anyone try and tell someone what a personal experience (that they did not see or experience for them self), try and dictate to someone else what it was? Height of blind arrogance.

If Jordan said he had an experience with what he believed to be angels, who is Chris White to tell him "No that was a deception." WHAT THE HELL? Chris White would have to have one huge ego to believe that. So only Chris White can tell you if your experiences are real or not? Give us all a break - what a load of codswallop! Chris White has zero credit - zilch, none.

Check this out anagram maker: http://www.ssynth.co.uk/~gay/cgi-bin/nph-an?line=chris+white&words=no+limit&dict=antworth&doai=on

:)

[Unified Serenity]

How can anyone try and tell someone what a personal experience (that they did not see or experience for them self), try and dictate to someone else what it was? Height of blind arrogance.

If Jordan said he had an experience with what he believed to be angels, who is Chris White to tell him "No that was a deception." WHAT THE HELL? Chris White would have to have one huge ego to believe that. So only Chris White can tell you if your experiences are real or not? Give us all a break - what a load of codswallop! Chris White has zero credit - zilch, none.

Check this out anagram maker: http://www.ssynth.co.uk/~gay/cgi-bin/nph-an?line=chris+white&words=no+limit&dict=antworth&doai=on

:)

I believe that Chris spoke from what he believes the bible says about lying spirits. Out of the whole video that is what bothered you? Ok, so you agree with everything else Chris challenged then, because an opinion of the experience was a pretty small part of the video. Do you believe Jordan Maxwell's interpretation of the things he said in that video or do you believe Chris' questions and exposing the very bad "scholarship"?

Look I don't agree with Chris' take on everything he says, and maybe I will take up a few minutes eventually to show what I think are his biblical errors, and he would probably say I was nuts, which is fine. I am not going to throw out everything because I don't like his take on some aspect of the bible I think of in a different way, but it would not be because I can't read Hebrew or Greek and misapply words that have no relevant meaning. I mean, Sol Om On? Really? You call that accurate teaching? I really would like an honest discussion of what's on the video, but if that's the best you can do to point out a fault, then I guess the video stands very well on it's own.

And, do you believe Jordan Maxwell changed his name with zero knowledge of the name "Jordanus Maximus"[/URL] from Helena Blavatsky work which he says is his favorite and whom he holds in very high regard according to his own words? That seems like quite a stretch to me that he just happens to mirror the second in the Trinity she espoused.

Interestingly, I found on the old PA forum this thread about:


J[URL="http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21038"]ordanus Maximus and why I have trouble taking Project Camelot seriously anymore:
(http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=40220.0)
Hi folks,

I know this will be hard for some people to stomach, and others will understand where I'm coming from. This year I learned that Jordan Maxwell is an Illuminati shill who's goal is like Michael Tsarion's and Zeitgiests, and many other "truth" movement people who are targeting people looking for the truth but then misdirecting them. Just about all of Jordan Maxwell's material and insights regarding religion is simply and demonstratively, and provably wrong. They come directly from the occultist Madam Blavatsky and IS the religion of the Illuminati elite which he, on the other hand, is also exposing. I'll say the reason why in a moment.

Watch these videos to see Jordan Maxwell's claims are false and misleading (and that's being kind):
Here's why in a nutshell Jordan Maxwell and people with similar message such as Michael Tsarion say what they do.

My Rebuttal to the People/Religion is the Cause of Problems and War in the World

I have not been very religious in my life but I know religion is certainly not the problem nor the cause, the problem is also not people in general nor any war like characteristics. People can be stupid for sure but also overall forgiving and peaceful.

What causes war is simply the manipulations of the Illuminati political and financial elite which uses war to divide people, maintain fear and control, and to destroy sovereignty which societies normally gravitate toward. In this game of war religion is sometimes used as a false cause but it is religion which is the Illuminati's biggest scapegoat. By setting up and blaming religion for the world's problems they take the eyes of society off of them--the real problem--and by blaming religion they create a false enemy for people to hate and which they themselves can then replace and "save" the world from. This is an old game at hand. For example when the Roman Empire couldn't control and conquer Christianity they took it over creating the roman catholic church.

The religion they will replace our current religions with will be one of their own construction—a "new age" religion which we have been peddled for some time now.


You know, this member said a lot there. I think this is why I am so bothered with much of this sort of misinformation. Religion isn't the problem, it's the convenient scapegoat, and they love having one they can control so well, and that's exactly what Blavatsky et al are doing in my opinion. Sure, expose them and promote their darn faith. So, the ones who think they are seekers will just stop munching in this pasture we took over 2000 years ago, and start eating out of this pasture of Mystery Babylon! This was a very insightful post to find, and I am glad I am still looking.

At least that thread had a different tone. Pretend I started my thread that way and see if we can talk about the issues here and stop just emotionally reacting. I care about the truth. I want the truth, and if it causes me to have to re-examine something I have thought then so be it. I think there is a lot to what this member said in their op here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21038.

[Mulder]

I did not even bother watching the video i believe what i know to be true to me.

As for his david icke video it borders on embarresing, most of these FUNDOS (great word btw)
are embarresing to there faith i happen to be pagan so i guess my view is one thats quite negative of the church, but im almost certain that christ is looking down on his "children" saying

"guys you got it all wrong, come on!"

Ah, a modern day Pagan, good for you Sean.

I'm curious though, what led you to the conclusion that undertaking a faith in Paganism would be a good path to follow?

When and why did you decide to label yourself as 'a Pagan'?

Do you feel being a Pagan defines who you are and what you're about?

I often wonder why people feel the need to choose a religion and to have faith in something outside of themselves.

I guess the whole idea of religion just never made much sense to me for some reason.

Ever since I was born I've always been a strong believer in Daniel Day, I have A LOT of faith in him.

Throughout my life he's always had my back, always had my best interests at heart, always been there for me... I kinda like the guy ;)

I feel like I made the right choice for me, I guess you probably feel the same way too.

All the best :)

Well its down to who i am mate,
I have faith in nature in the old gods of valor (i believe in the asatru pagan rites)
i cant put faith in a god who asks i go to one knee to him, a real god is knowing of his/her power and respects the ideals of man,

Jesus died for my sins yet i have to atone for them, weather i have comited them or not? no thanks Odin asks no such act of me, he meets me as a warrior as a man with faith in him, he does not ask i attend a mass to worship him, or that i FEAR his judgement, he does not damn me to eternal hellfire for not believing in him, he is there and i CHOOSE to embrace him as my god.

That to me is true power, is true deification, the choice is mans, why should god hold his followers to ransom?

It never added up in my mind, i beleive in HONOR, VALOR, STRENGHT, and standing up to adversity with my mind and body, not weeping martyrs on crosses, (no offence to christians)

It's nice to read a post from you - I haven't come across anything from you in a while. I have definitely turned away from Christianity & the Catholic Church, which has been Sprirtually "unwholesome" for some time - e.g. Witch-hunts, the rat-line, sexual abuse... I'm drawn toward paganism as my surname means the word "pagan" so I'm going to research it some more. I know it's not like in the movies (E.G. Human Sacrifices!), but is a Earthy, happy religion.

[watchZEITGEISTnow]

All I ask is who is Chris White and what is his bio ?

Too many "experts" randomly popping up for my taste. They stand out a mile too.

Jordan has HEART and SOUL. He does what he believes to be best for humanity to wake it up. He has earned his stripes easily. He has sacrificed much.

It actually reminds me of Jesus and how he was persecuted by the sheeple of that time. Chris reminds me of the Roman Emperor that crucified Jesus in this situation.

Chris also lacks conviction in what he is accusing/judging Jordan for - you can hear it in his voice - the spoiled child that refuses to budge - because well that would just be too much for his own ego.

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115), below. Paul.]

[Mulder]

I have problems with "debunking" the entirity of Jordan's lifetime. I'm sure everyone has made mistakes, or changed their minds about things, or has been deceived. For example, when my grandfather studied medicine in the 1940s DNA hadn't been discovered and the University taught the wrong number of chromosomes. So I don't agree with this "debunking" of all his work.

I absolutely loved his presentation at the "Awake and Aware" 2009 Conference. Treat yourselves and have a look:

bvjROPfv0X4

[D-Day]

...
As for his david icke video it borders on embarresing, most of these FUNDOS (great word btw)
are embarresing to there faith i happen to be pagan so i guess my view is one thats quite negative of the church...

Ah, a modern day Pagan, good for you Sean.

I'm curious though, what led you to the conclusion that undertaking a faith in Paganism would be a good path to follow?

When and why did you decide to label yourself as 'a Pagan'?
...

Well its down to who i am mate,
I have faith in nature in the old gods of valor (i believe in the asatru pagan rites)
i cant put faith in a god who asks i go to one knee to him, a real god is knowing of his/her power and respects the ideals of man,

Jesus died for my sins yet i have to atone for them, weather i have comited them or not? no thanks Odin asks no such act of me, he meets me as a warrior as a man with faith in him, he does not ask i attend a mass to worship him, or that i FEAR his judgement, he does not damn me to eternal hellfire for not believing in him, he is there and i CHOOSE to embrace him as my god.
...

It's nice to read a post from you - I haven't come across anything from you in a while. I have definitely turned away from Christianity & the Catholic Church, which has been Sprirtually "unwholesome" for some time - e.g. Witch-hunts, the rat-line, sexual abuse... I'm drawn toward paganism as my surname means the word "pagan" so I'm going to research it some more. I know it's not like in the movies (E.G. Human Sacrifices!), but is a Earthy, happy religion.

You know, you can still have a strong connection to and relationship with Mother Earth/Nature without subscribing to a religion.

In truth, the fact you both are here on this planet tells me that each of you is already intrinsically connected with Mother Earth and Nature.

You do not need a religion to achieve that, the connection has already been established... all you need to do is "tune in".

People really need to start remembering who they are, where they came from, and how they got here.

Being part of a religion does not enhance a person's spirituality or make them any more likely to benefit from spiritual experiences.

Again, the reasons why people feel the need to align themselves with religions continues to baffle me.

I guess we each have our own path to follow though... I wish you both all the best on your respective journeys :)

[Mad Hatter]

Mad Hatter dons his 'Just marking this thread cap'...(auto bump not required but oh well)

>start # superfluos to discussion loop

Fiction = From the mind of man, albeit that is my current operational definition. Thus I get...

All law is fiction,
Unity through Trinity or contract trust law for anyone in the know. :cool:

All Truth is fiction. Now I know a fair few dare I say, energy vampires, are going to choke on that somewhat, so be it, but that choice is theirs to make.

In light of that I could form an opinion which came down on either side or the middle of the divide but if I am to be honest with myself about it and based it on 'What do I really know' about the subject matter at hand, besides all the heresay I may have read or watched at some point, in reality it would be nothing more than more fiction, no?

So IMHO for those wishing to assess all this fiction, call it truth if you want to, one would be wise to weigh very carefully the heresay from those who do not have intimate knowledge of both beings on display in the OP, lest any fictional conclusions you may draw end up of poorer quality than the very best fiction available. ;)

>end # superfluos to discussion loop
>resume # normal program

All is well :p

[Vitalux]

I know, another guru and truth "researcher" debunked. It's not easy critically examining facts, but things are what they are whether I like the facts or not.

I have enjoyed many of Jordan Maxwell’s presentations. He is quite intelligent and engaging with a pretty funny sense of humor. I have learned quite a few things from him, but I have come across some extra information that reveals how he is working very hard to bring people into this New World Order in the Light of Lucifer. One he most reveres and appreciates of teachers is Helena Blavatsky of Theosophy fame. It is now quite apparent to me that his scholarship is very lacking, but his ability to apparently outright lie or misinform is what I would deem near sociopathic (http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html).


I ask you to avail yourself of this very straight forward presentation, and ask yourself if you are a real fan of his, has he been truthful with you? Why would you follow anyone who has not? I had this on another thread about how the teaching that Israel is really Isis, Amen Ra, and El is not correct. I think it deserves it's own thread, and let the chips fall where they may.




I think I will close this thread and go plant a tree and give something positive to the world.

Jordan Maxwell is a wonderful soul.

http://theweatherchannelkids.com/images/Kid%20planting%20a%20tree_5311371.thb.jpg

[ulli]

It's nice to read a post from you - I haven't come across anything from you in a while. I have definitely turned away from Christianity & the Catholic Church, which has been Sprirtually "unwholesome" for some time - e.g. Witch-hunts, the rat-line, sexual abuse... I'm drawn toward paganism as my surname means the word "pagan" so I'm going to research it some more. I know it's not like in the movies (E.G. Human Sacrifices!), but is a Earthy, happy religion.

You know, you can still have a strong connection to and relationship with Mother Earth/Nature without subscribing to a religion.

In truth, the fact you both are here on this planet tells me that each of you is already intrinsically connected with Mother Earth and Nature.

You do not need a religion to achieve that, the connection has already been established... all you need to do is "tune in".

People really need to start remembering who they are, where they came from, and how they got here.

Being part of a religion does not enhance a person's spirituality or make them any more likely to benefit from spiritual experiences.

Again, the reasons why people feel the need to align themselves with religions continues to baffle me.

I guess we each have our own path to follow though... I wish you both all the best on your respective journeys :)


The word Religion comes from the Latin re ligere which means to re-connect.
Millions of people find peace in communal worship connecting to higher spirit.
Also not to forget, most religions have decent teachings in their essence.

The moment a group of people join in the focus on a higher power, or principle of goodness,
their personal power can still come into play.

Admittedly group worship can also diminish personal power,
but not unless the person allows it.

And what is worship, if not love. Love for the highest ideals will then eventually manifest those ideals.
Not all religions are Satan oriented. Of course those that are should be avoided at all cost,
especially those Christian churches that talk more about Satan than God.

[SEAM]

I too, grew up in the "Shadow of the Catholic Church".. My sib's and Mother are still devout.. We still debate.. We still agree to disagree.. Neither side wins - EVER.

Catholicism taught me how to "Time-travel" at a very early age. And I've used it my whole life.. virtually every road trip when I'm not behind the wheel:
I tuck my head down to my chest, and go out. I wake up, and I'm at my destination.. Flawlessly.. For me, it's a couple minutes and I've arrived. Thank you Father!

Everything else they tried to teach me... Well, I was busy traveling, so I missed it!

[Kristin]

[QUOTE=watchZEITGEISTnow;519728]All I ask is who is Chris White and what is his bio ?

Too many "experts" randomly popping up for my taste. They stand out a mile too.

Jordan has HEART and SOUL. He does what he believes to be best for humanity to wake it up. He has earned his stripes easily. He has sacrificed much.

It actually reminds me of Jesus and how he was persecuted by the sheeple of that time. Chris reminds me of the Roman Emperor that crucified Jesus in this situation.

Chris also lacks conviction in what he is accusing/judging Jordan for - you can hear it in his voice - the spoiled child that refuses to budge - because well that would just be too much for his own ego.

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115), below. Paul.]

Theories are welcome here at Avalon and are open for respectful debate. Pleas keep that in mind when responding to another's post. Thank you.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

[Cartomancer]

CHRIS WHITE DEBUNKED

I just listened to the Chris White's video again. That reminded me of something you would see on the CBN network or something. I kept expecting Jimmy Swaggert, Pat Roberts or Ernest Angley to chime in at any moment. I have to say that he is just as wrapped up in the wrong kind of dogma as many of the people that have been heavily criticized here lately. He isn't being objective about anything. His entire purpose is prove that his religion is better than anyone else's and that what ever he says is right etc. And, oh yeah, you are a Satan worshiper if you don't agree with him. Just the fact that he needs to value his faith by attacking someone else with a different view is very telling. If we have to see criticism of Maxwell lets at least see an rational unbiased one instead of a bunch of fear based I'm better than you crap.

I think its kind of funny. The ground Chris White is standing on is a quaking fear of made up b.s. that he can't prove empirically at all any more than Maxwell can prove his truth. Its all about faith. You just have to believe in it no matter how flimsy the evidence is or how long the after the fact the book was written and by whom? After they exterminated all of the people who worshiped Christ before Rome adapted it. First they kill them all and then realize their religion is just the thing for them. Then they consistently exterminated any opposing views that weren't of any use to them for the next 2000 years?

This is who you want to trust for the word? If you dig Christ you need to dig in and think about what the man's life was beyond all of the hype. You can almost guarantee that Christ's life was radically different than that portrayed in any book.

I would really appreciate it if you would take a section of the video you disagree with what Chris points out compaired to what JM was saying. Please site the start and end point so we can watch it and maybe you can elucidate on something actually in the video and not school me on the terrible man Chris White is for pointing these things out. Please pick one of the topics he brings up and shows how JM is off course we can discuss it in a mature manner.

Thank you for taking the time to deal with the video.

I think the whole video is a bunch of b.s. from beginning to end. I will absolutely not go through the video and site instances. The whole thing is a steaming pile of misdirections and half truths. Again he is stooping to attacking people based on things he cannot prove any more than Maxwell can. That is enough. Why don't you empirically prove that the bible is correct? Verse by verse. Then I will defend my thesis. Otherwise you are blindly clinging to dogma you can't prove at all. Can you prove that Christ was ever even alive? I bet you can't. Its a matter of faith that you have chosen to believe just like everyone else's faith. Lets start there.

[Unified Serenity]

Yes, let's throw some straw man argument out and not deal with the OP yet again and try to derail the thread. So, rather than taking your bait and noting that I have proven the biblical history and truths of the texts of the bible and life of Jesus has more historical documents outside of the church than almost all other ancient leaders people do not doubt the existence of in this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37709-Anunnaki-Jesus-and-NLP--split-from-another-thread-&p=391899&viewfull=1#post391899). This thread is not about whether Jesus existed, it's about Maxwell's ridiculous claims and creative use of linguistics to prove points he claims back up his take on his new age Theosophical religion. Maxwell clearly embraces astro theology and theosophy, and that is his right, but his "facts" trying to make the bible and those who trust it look stupid are based on very poor research and just plain ol' jumping to weird conclusions not based in any historic facts.

Is there anywhere in the original biblical texts a mention of a King Solomon? If so, cite it. The man Jordan goes on and on about and uses to prove his point about sun worship being Sol Om On is a completely false premise. There was no SOLOMON in the bible. His name was Shlomo, and that is clear in all Hebrew texts. Thus his whole explanation that Sol is the sun and Om is a Hindu sun god (false) and On is about turning on a light bulb is ridiculous. Is this a wise way to debunk ancient texts and put out a false belief?

What about manna being used to help people talk to God because it was a psychedelic mushroom? Do you really think people could eat 3 liters of mushrooms a day and even live to talk about it? Where in the bible does it mention manna is to help people talk to God? I have stuck to these two simple examples of Maxwell's weird claims because no one will talk about it. All those who refuse to examine the facts in Maxwell's presentations are not dealing with the OP.

If you want to read about the historical fact of Jesus existing read it in this post. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37709-Anunnaki-Jesus-and-NLP--split-from-another-thread-&p=391899&viewfull=1#post391899)

[Khaleesi]

Can you prove that Christ was ever even alive? I bet you can't. Its a matter of faith that you have chosen to believe just like everyone else's faith. Lets start there.

Yes she can and has on numerous occasions here at Avalon, but it seems ...

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115), below. Paul.]

[Cartomancer]

Yes, let's throw some straw man argument out and not deal with the OP yet again and try to derail the thread. So, rather than taking your bait and noting that I have proven the biblical history and truths of the texts of the bible and life of Jesus has more historical documents outside of the church than almost all other ancient leaders people do not doubt the existence of in this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37709-Anunnaki-Jesus-and-NLP--split-from-another-thread-&p=391899&viewfull=1#post391899). This thread is not about whether Jesus existed, it's about Maxwell's ridiculous claims and creative use of linguistics to prove points he claims back up his take on his new age Theosophical religion. Maxwell clearly embraces astro theology and theosophy, and that is his right, but his "facts" trying to make the bible and those who trust it look stupid are based on very poor research and just plain ol' jumping to weird conclusions not based in any historic facts.

Is there anywhere in the original biblical texts a mention of a King Solomon? If so, cite it. The man Jordan goes on and on about and uses to prove his point about sun worship being Sol Om On is a completely false premise. There was no SOLOMON in the bible. His name was Shlomo, and that is clear in all Hebrew texts. Thus his whole explanation that Sol is the sun and Om is a Hindu sun god (false) and On is about turning on a light bulb is ridiculous. Is this a wise way to debunk ancient texts and put out a false belief?

What about manna being used to help people talk to God because it was a psychedelic mushroom? Do you really thing people could eat 3 liters of mushrooms a day and even live to talk about it? Where in the bible does it mention manna is to help people talk to God? I have stuck to these two simple examples of Maxwell's weird claims because no one will talk about it. All those who refuse to examine the facts in Maxwell's presentations are not dealing with the OP.

If you want to read about the historical fact of Jesus existing read it in this post. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37709-Anunnaki-Jesus-and-NLP--split-from-another-thread-&p=391899&viewfull=1#post391899)

Why would I waste my time picking out points in a thesis that is based soley on fairy tales and halt truths? I think that anything Jordan Maxwell says is infinitely just as possible as what is written in the bible much less what some brainwashed hit man like Chris White says. Anything the Roman or Byzantine Empire had a hand in creating is just simply something I wouldn't trust. That would be like trusting George Bush to be the creator of a faith. All of the Christians that existed prior to Rome's adaptation of Christ were slaughtered and persecuted. They even continued to slaughter other Christians after they adapted the faith.

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115), below. Paul.]

[Cartomancer]

Can you prove that Christ was ever even alive? I bet you can't. Its a matter of faith that you have chosen to believe just like everyone else's faith. Lets start there.

Yes she can and has on numerous occasions here at Avalon, but it seems so many here are living in blind hatred of Christianity instead of realizing that they should hate what SOME people have done IN THE NAME OF Christianity that they can't actually read a post without having the screaming mimi's over it.

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115), below. Paul.]
I am a Christian. I a take his existence as a matter of faith and not some effluvia I read in the bible. Show me one piece of actual physical proof that that man walked the earth. You have nothing but words.

[Khaleesi]

Can you prove that Christ was ever even alive? I bet you can't. Its a matter of faith that you have chosen to believe just like everyone else's faith. Lets start there.

Yes she can and has on numerous occasions here at Avalon, but it seems so many here are living in blind hatred of Christianity instead of realizing that they should hate what SOME people have done IN THE NAME OF Christianity that they can't actually read a post without having the screaming mimi's over it.

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115), below. Paul.]
I am a Christian. I a take his existence as a matter of faith and not some effluvia I read in the bible. Show me one piece of actual physical proof that that man walked the earth. You have nothing but words.

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115), below. Paul.]

I usually try not to add 'tone' to someone's typed words but I can't help but hear the venom dripping here. You want evidence? Serenity has provided evidence on other threads, just as I stated above. Historical evidence not related to the Bible, btw. Things like records kept by the Romans.

[Cartomancer]

Can you prove that Christ was ever even alive? I bet you can't. Its a matter of faith that you have chosen to believe just like everyone else's faith. Lets start there.

Yes she can and has on numerous occasions here at Avalon, but it seems so many here are living in blind hatred of Christianity instead of realizing that they should hate what SOME people have done IN THE NAME OF Christianity that they can't actually read a post without having the screaming mimi's over it.

Oh I see the other half decided to chime in as well. I am a Christian. I a take his existence as a matter of faith and not some effluvia I read in the bible. Show me one piece of actual physical proof that that man walked the earth. You have nothing but words.

The other half? I am an individual and a member of Avalon and as such have every right to respond to your posts. I usually try not to add 'tone' to someone's typed words but I can't help but hear the venom dripping here. You want evidence? Serenity has provided evidence on other threads, just as I stated above. Historical evidence not related to the Bible, btw. Things like records kept by the Romans.

I went and read that "evidence." Clearly just as questionable as anything else I have seen on the subject. Just as questionable as all of the evidence showing that "Christos" was used to describe any one of several prophets from that era. This is the evidence? Anything on this forum is taken as a matter of faith based on the evidence. Again one more time: If the Romans are saying it you definitely should not believe it other than to figure out how they were lying and manipulating. That is just like trusting the New World Order or the mainstream media for your information. With that said I would say the same thing about Theosophy and the Lucius Trust crowd.

[Arpheus]

There is absolutely no proof that Jesus existed,thats a fact, ...

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115), below. Paul.]

[Khaleesi]

There is absloutely no proof that Jesus existed,thats a fact, ...

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115), below. Paul.]


I stopped at the word ... [Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115), below. Paul.]

[21CC]

I went and read that "evidence." Clearly just as questionable as anything else I have seen on the subject. Just as questionable as all of the evidence showing that "Christos" was used to describe any one of several prophets from that era.



I always thought it interesting that "prophet" is a homonym to "profit".

[Mike Gorman]

This should not be called 'De-bunking' it should be called 'personal prejudice spite'; Jordan has many faults, like most Human Beings,
he can be condescending and pedantic-but he derives a scalpel sharp analysis of the cultural origins of many of our religious and political
symbols and myths. This guy 'de-bunking' him is ...

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115), below. Paul.]

[Cartomancer]

Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result

*
1 Kings 10:1 ASV
And when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon concerning the name of Jehovah, she came to prove him with hard questions.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
1 Kings 10:1 BBE
Now the queen of Sheba, hearing great things of Solomon, came to put his wisdom to the test with hard questions.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
1 Kings 10:1 CEB
[Queen of Sheba] When the queen of Sheba heard reports about Solomon, due to the LORD's name, she came to test him with riddles.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
1 Kings 10:1 CEBA
[Queen of Sheba] When the queen of Sheba heard reports about Solomon, due to the LORD's name, she came to test him with riddles.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*

Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result
Bible Books: Song of Solomon

*
2 Samuel 5:14 ASV
And these are the names of those that were born unto him in Jerusalem: Shammua, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon,
Read 2 Samuel 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
2 Samuel 5:14 BBE
These are the names of those whose birth took place in Jerusalem: Shammua and Shobab and Nathan and Solomon
Read 2 Samuel 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
2 Samuel 5:14 CEB
The names of his children in Jerusalem were as follows: Shammua, Shobab, Nathan, Solomon,
Read 2 Samuel 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
2 Samuel 5:14 CEBA
The names of his children in Jerusalem were as follows: Shammua, Shobab, Nathan, Solomon,
Read 2 Samuel 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result

*
1 Kings 10:10 ASV
And she gave the king a hundred and twenty talents of gold, and of spices very great store, and precious stones: there came no more such abundance of spices as these which the queen of Sheba gave to king Solomon.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
1 Kings 10:10 BBE
And she gave the king a hundred and twenty talents of gold, and a great store of spices and jewels: never again was such a wealth of spices seen as that which the queen of Sheba gave King Solomon.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
1 Kings 10:10 CEB
The queen gave the king one hundred twenty kikkars of gold, a great quantity of spice, and precious stones. Never again has so much spice come to Israel as when the queen of Sheba gave this gift to King Solomon.

[21CC]

the temple of the soul o' man.... is the body.

I have the Blues Brothers. song "I'm a Soul Man" reverberating!

[Unified Serenity]

Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result

*
1 Kings 10:1 ASV
And when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon concerning the name of Jehovah, she came to prove him with hard questions.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
1 Kings 10:1 BBE
Now the queen of Sheba, hearing great things of Solomon, came to put his wisdom to the test with hard questions.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
1 Kings 10:1 CEB
[Queen of Sheba] When the queen of Sheba heard reports about Solomon, due to the LORD's name, she came to test him with riddles.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
1 Kings 10:1 CEBA
[Queen of Sheba] When the queen of Sheba heard reports about Solomon, due to the LORD's name, she came to test him with riddles.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*

Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result
Bible Books: Song of Solomon

*
2 Samuel 5:14 ASV
And these are the names of those that were born unto him in Jerusalem: Shammua, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon,
Read 2 Samuel 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
2 Samuel 5:14 BBE
These are the names of those whose birth took place in Jerusalem: Shammua and Shobab and Nathan and Solomon
Read 2 Samuel 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
2 Samuel 5:14 CEB
The names of his children in Jerusalem were as follows: Shammua, Shobab, Nathan, Solomon,
Read 2 Samuel 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
2 Samuel 5:14 CEBA
The names of his children in Jerusalem were as follows: Shammua, Shobab, Nathan, Solomon,
Read 2 Samuel 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result

*
1 Kings 10:10 ASV
And she gave the king a hundred and twenty talents of gold, and of spices very great store, and precious stones: there came no more such abundance of spices as these which the queen of Sheba gave to king Solomon.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
1 Kings 10:10 BBE
And she gave the king a hundred and twenty talents of gold, and a great store of spices and jewels: never again was such a wealth of spices seen as that which the queen of Sheba gave King Solomon.
Read 1 Kings 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
*
1 Kings 10:10 CEB
The queen gave the king one hundred twenty kikkars of gold, a great quantity of spice, and precious stones. Never again has so much spice come to Israel as when the queen of Sheba gave this gift to King Solomon.

As I said, ORIGINAL texts. Like Jordan, you read what you want to read it seems. Here is the actual Hebrew of those texts:

1Ki 10:1 And when the queenH4436 of ShebaH7614 heardH8085 of(H853) the fameH8088 of SolomonH8010 concerning the nameH8034 of the LORD,H3068 she cameH935 to proveH5254 him with hard questions.H2420

The numbers after each word are the corresponding Hebrew words in the ORIGINAL texts. Note after Solomon is H8010:

H8010
שׁלמה
shelômôh
shel-o-mo'
From H7965; peaceful; Shelomoh, David’s successor: - Solomon.

Here is the alphabet for reference:

http://www.jewfaq.org/graphics/hebrew.gif

I assume since you are trying to school me in Hebrew that you can actually read the Hebrew alphabet. I have studied it since 1987, how long have you been studying it? Oh, and just for reference, you read from right to left. There are no proper vowels in Hebrew really so the 4 letters spell out Sh L M H and that spells out for English, Shlomo which comes from the root word Peace which is Shalom. The jots and tittles of Hebrew give the little accents just for info purposes. So we know that H8010 is SHLOMO. Any Jewish boy or girl getting ready for their Bar or Bat Mitzvah can read these texts in the Hebrew, it's part of their training and it is why the Hebrew language never really died. They have to be able to read the Torah.

So, let's take all your other references and see what number is next to the name Solomon.

2Sa 5:14 And theseH428 be the namesH8034 of those that were bornH3209 unto him in Jerusalem;H3389 Shammua,H8051 and Shobab,H7727 and Nathan,H5416 and Solomon,H8010

Well, how about that, it's also H8010. So, I guess the ORIGINAL text there also says SHLOMO.

1Ki 10:10 And she gaveH5414 the kingH4428 an hundredH3967 and twentyH6242 talentsH3603 of gold,H2091 and of spicesH1314 veryH3966 great store,H7235 and preciousH3368 stones:H68 there cameH935 noH3808 moreH5750 suchH1931 abundanceH7230 of spicesH1314 as these whichH834 the queenH4436 of ShebaH7614 gaveH5414 to kingH4428 Solomon.H8010

Well, I'll be darned, it's H8010 there, again SHLOMO. The grafted in gentiles anglicized the names. Do you think Jesus was ever called Jesus? No, there is no Hard J sound in Hebrew or Aramaic. It is a Y sound and it is Yeshua. His mother by the way was Miriam and his earthly father was Yosef. King James even had an Apostle named after him. Do you think there is a real James the Apostle? His name was what we would call today as Jacob or yakobus. Now that would have been a more accurate translation, but boy, James just had a better ring to it I'm sure when they made the KJV bible.

G2385
Ἰάκωβος
Iakōbos
ee-ak'-o-bos
The same as G2384 Graecized; Jacobus, the name of three Israelites: - James.

He did not live in Jerusalem either, but yerûshâlayim

H3389
ירוּשׁלים ירוּשׁלם
yerûshâlaim yerûshâlayim
yer-oo-shaw-lah'-im, yer-oo-shaw-lah'-yim
A dual (in allusion to its two main hills (the true pointing, at least of the former reading, seems to be that of H3390)); probably from (the passive participle of) H3384 and H7999; founded peaceful; Jerushalaim or Jerushalem, the capital city of Palestine: - Jerusalem.

Oh, Moses was not called Moses either despite all those bibles you quoted, his name was :

H4872
משׁה
môsheh
mo-sheh'
From H4871; drawing out (of the water), that is, rescued; Mosheh, the Israelitish lawgiver: - Moses.

So, let's not play games. No true linguist expert thinks much of the sort of "research" Jordan Maxwell does. They actually know the difference between a translation and a true original manuscript.

Here is 1kings 10:1 in Hebrew and English:

1 Kings Chapter 10 מְלָכִים א

א וּמַלְכַּת-שְׁבָא, שֹׁמַעַת אֶת-שֵׁמַע שְׁלֹמֹה--לְשֵׁם יְהוָה; וַתָּבֹא לְנַסֹּתוֹ, בְּחִידוֹת. 1 And when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon because of the name of the LORD, she came to prove him with hard questions.

Note the jots and tittles? Ok, I hope this helps explain how there is no King Solomon and gosh, I guess Jordan is right, there never was a King Solomon, he made him up to play his word games, but there was a King Shlomo, and it's a historic fact despite how much Jordan doesn't want it to be.

EDIT NOTE:

If anyone on Avalon really is interested in studying the bible I have a prophecy thread that has a video showing you how you can read it and study it word by word in the original languages. I also have a version of the bible called the "Complete Jewish Bible" that is both Old and New Testaments. I love reading it with the proper words in place, though it's done for the English reader, it keeps the spirit of the texts in place much better I believe. Here is a the same section in this translation:

1Ki 10:1 When the queen of Sh'va heard what was being said about Shlomo because of the name of Adonai, she came to test him with difficult questions.
1Ki 10:2 She arrived in Yerushalayim accompanied by a very great retinue, including camels bearing spices and gold in great abundance, and precious stones. When she appeared before Shlomo she spoke with him about everything on her heart,
1Ki 10:3 and Shlomo answered all her questions; nothing was hidden from the king that he could not explain to her.

[ThePythonicCow]

Seriously you're on PA ...


... but it seems so many here are ...


Another thing I don't understand is why ...


Oh I see the other ...


... you can ...


I stopped at the word ...


... This guy 'de-bunking' him is ...

I have mod-edit'd out some material from the above posts. What I removed focused too much on finding negatives in other forum members, rather than on the topic at hand.

Perhaps it would be best not to post when one's disdain for a fellow forum member is dripping profusely onto one's keyboard.

[Carmody]

It's probably because David Icke tried to debunk the historical Jesus Christ, and I'm sure David Icke's research had nothing to do with him realizing he wasn't Jesus Christ.

When entering the threshold of what the Buddhists might call the 'clearing of the self',' one will invariably encounter a state of mind which will feel like one is free to the point of confusing it with omnipotence/omnipresence, or freedom, or all encompassing communication, connection to source, what have you. David's feeling at that time was true and normal. Afterward his condition calmed down, like it does for everyone who approaches this point of clarity..

The trick is to not allow the state of mind in that moment to rule one's logic formation from that point forward, which David sensibly understood.

His "problem" as it was..is that he made this pronouncement on the Terry Wogan Show(IIRC), and thus became a public point of continual ridicule, when it was a simple expected and normal temporary state of mind.

The continual ridicule on this point comes from those who are not clear and not of good mental clarity and they do not understand this point. some are purposely vengeful in using this ignorance in the vast majority of humanity as a weapon against David Icke.

[Jeffrey]

It's probably because David Icke tried to debunk the historical Jesus Christ, and I'm sure David Icke's research had nothing to do with him realizing he wasn't Jesus Christ.

When entering the threshold of what the Buddhists might call the 'clearing of the self',' one will invariably encounter a state of mind which will feel like one is free to the point of confusing it with omnipotence/omnipresence, or freedom, or all encompassing communication, connection to source, what have you. David's feeling at that time was true and normal. Afterward his condition calmed down, like it does for everyone who approaches this point of clarity..

The trick is to not allow the state of mind in that moment to rule one's logic formation from that point forward, which David sensibly understood.

His "problem" as it was..is that he made this pronouncement on the Terry Wogan Show(IIRC), and thus became a public point of continual ridicule, when it was a simple expected and normal temporary state of mind.

The continual ridicule on this point comes from those who are not clear and not of good mental clarity and they do not understand this point. some are purposely vengeful in using this ignorance in the vast majority of humanity as a weapon against David Icke.

Redemption is sweet.

0nMq6gc1yMg

[GCS1103]

Unified Serenity- It's obvious to me that you have a real expertise and great knowledge in this field. I'm enjoying the learning experience here.

[Unified Serenity]

often times these days christians are feeling under attack... like the victim, like everyone is trying to take away their beliefs.

I too once looked at religion as foolish dogma to control the masses. Anyone with any sort of rational mind could see it was a blatant control mechanism. I still believe that, however I recently have seen not only the bible in a different light but all the ancient scriptures.

For the christians out there, what if you still could keep your faith, the message of the bible and jesus, however you just saw the teachings of the bible in a new light?

For those out there who feel religion is a bunch of nonsensical fairy tales and should be paid no mind, realize that this too is a control mechanism playing to our egos, that we are far too smart to believe such silliness. So we don't even look at it. We throw the baby out with the bath water and hold our noses up in the air looking down on the ignorant fools who fell for such nonsense. This too is a very deliberate form of conditioning the masses.

For as I myself have recently discovered, the bible, like all the ancient texts hold the keys to our evolution.

I'll assume most of us here fall within the western world, and have grown up in a world of christianity and the bible... let's look at that more closely, keeping in mind this could be applied to all religions of the world.

Again, to the christians out there, this is not an attempt to strip you of what you believe so strongly in, in fact it could re-enforce your beliefs in a much different way.

This is a very extensive line of study, and fills many books, so I'll try and share a taste of what I've stumbled upon to begin with... this is not my work, nor anything new, in fact it is quite ancient... everything in life is cyclical, and this knowledge is starting to return to us...

"There is no doubt that the Old Testament is a physiological and anatomical textbook to those capable of reading it from a scientific point of view. The functions of the human body, the attributes of the human mind, and the qualities of the human soul, have been personified by the wise men of the ancient world, and a great drama has been built around their relationships to themselves and to each other."

..."The building of temples in the form of the human body is a custom common to all peoples. The Tabernacle of the Jews, the great Egyptian Temple of Karnak, the religious structures of the Hawaiian priests, and the Christian churches laid out in the form of the cross, are examples of this practice. If the human body were laid out with the arms spread in the shape of any of these buildings, it would be found that the high altar would occupy the same relative position in the building that the brain occupies in the human body."

..."These wise ones realized that there was a great deal more involved in religion than the chanting of mantras and the signing of hymns; they realized that the path of salvation could be walked successfully only by those who had practical, scientific knowledge of the occult functions of their own bodies. The anatomical symbolism which they evolved in order to perpetuate this understanding has come down to modern Christianity, but the keys apparently have been lost. It is a tragic situation for religionists that they are surrounded by hundreds of symbols which they cannot understand. But it is still sadder that they have ever forgotten that these symbols ever had any meaning other the the foolish interpretations which they themselves have concocted." - The Occult Anatomy of Man, Manly P. Hall.

Keep in mind when he says "foolish" he is not speaking solely to christians, but as he says, to religionists. It is not a direct attack on christianity, but on the larger concept of religion.

man, know thyself.... too often this phrase is thought of metaphysically, that we must know we are more then this material body, we are eternal, we are spirit... which seems like an important piece of the puzzle of existence... yet it diminishes the role of the physical body... the temple of man... modern medicine still knows very little about the brain and the glands within the brain... we don't truly know ourselves, for as much as we do understand about the body, there's still a huge portion referred to as "junk" because we have no idea what it's there for.

As I promised not to start any new threads for a week, could you please start a new thread, and I will post this there. Thanks.


I am willing to see where this is going, but I have some inklings already, but I consider all information and to be fair I must tell you I will probably drive you nuts as when I embark on a study, I do my best to set aside my "beliefs" as it were, and look at it first from just the information. Then I tend to read everything I can about it from someone who wholeheartedly and expertly believes in it and can teach it. Then I read everything I can from those who absolutely do not believe in it and can expertly share their views and research. Thus with that in mind, can you provide me with the earliest known churches with this structure, pictures, documents if they exist that talk about the method of construction and design?

Thank you

[GCS1103]

I think that some people confuse the love and belief in God and Jesus, as the love of "religion". I don't belong to any religious organization and never have, but my love of our Creator is very real. Perhaps my Creator is different than someone else's concept of Creator, but that is something that is a useless debate. Those of us who have a deep, personal belief in God will never be swayed from that belief, no matter how many quotes, videos, etc. are shown to us. I'm not a "fundamentalist" nor a fanatic. I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they want; so I hope you too will respect those of us who choose to believe what we do.

Our spirituality, or lack thereof, is very personal and a huge part of who we are as individuals. I think it's the very foundation of an individual. I take offense when someone tells me that "the facts are.........". No one here has the facts, including myself. We won't have the facts until we leave this world we live in. Until that time, I hope we can all respect each other, and not criticize what is "the truth" for each of us.

[buckminster fuller]

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #139 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520299&viewfull=1#post520299), below. Paul.]

[Mad Hatter]

Mad Hatter dons his semantic cap... (since so much of this is about semantics)

Hiya GCS1103 no malice intended but it struck me that when you wrote...


will never be swayed from that belief, no matter how many quotes, videos, etc. are shown to us.

followed by...


I'm not a "fundamentalist" nor a fanatic.

could it not be percieved by some of the audience that these statements taken together are slightly at odds? For what is a fanatic if not someone who refuses to be swayed from a particular path? Just food for thought...


We won't have the facts until we leave this world we live in.

I agree but am fully prepared for a very rude shock which could go one way or the other. However as part of that understanding I will be asking for the 'creator(s)?' definition of paradise.:p

One must also keep in mind the very real possibility that when one dies one is simply put in a hole in the ground and your best friends get to throw dirt in your face one last time which if one is to be reasonable is not wholly out of the bounds of possibility.


Until that time, I hope we can all respect each other, and not criticize what is "the truth" for each of us.

Once again I tend to agree but it seems to me the difficulty here is in attempting to discuss the nature of an individuals core beliefs, Jordans, Whites, yours, mine, which filtered through the restrictions of language so often end up perceived as criticism despite the best of intentions thus bogging down any investigative attempts to get at, shall we say in light of my earlier post regarding fictions, the heart of the matter without causing some discomfort for all involved.

Having said that I do really appreciate your input to this discussion, for that matter everyones, but suggest that some of the other participants keep in mind the utmost civility stemming from purest intent is a an absolute pre requisite for discussions of this nature. Obvious to some I know but seemingly not apparent for others....

Namaste

[watchZEITGEISTnow]

Not too fond of the mods censorship. Seems like the OP has accused Maxwell of being disinfo - shouldn't that be censored too?

Negativity exists. To deny "negative" comments (opinions) is not the reality we live in.

We should embrace the negativity - not hide it or pretend it does not exist.

Also Jordan has no right of reply here - is that not unfair on him?

Positive and negative co-exist - and if you deny that - you'll miss a lot.

[jackovesk]

Seriously you're on PA ...


... but it seems so many here are ...


Another thing I don't understand is why ...


Oh I see the other ...


... you can ...


I stopped at the word ...


... This guy 'de-bunking' him is ...

I have mod-edit'd out some material from the above posts. What I removed focused too much on finding negatives in other forum members, rather than on the topic at hand.

Perhaps it would be best not to post when one's disdain for a fellow forum member is dripping profusely onto one's keyboard.

:bump:

...and a Big Thank-you to Unified Serenity, who isn't afraid to "Ask the Tough Questions" & "Let the Cards Fall where they May"...!

Nothing at all Wrong to constantly Question, Question, Question...In search of the 'Truth'...:yes4:

Tip: If some of you continue to argue for arguings sake..? Time to move-on to another 'Thread'...

[161803398]

I will tell you my story about the Theosophists. I learned about the Theosophists in university because I briefly studied WB Yeats and he, like many other very fascinating people was interested in the teachings of the Theosophical Society. A friend of mine who knew a lot more than I did told me about the changes that were anticipated to come around now and those were the basis of Yeats's poem "The Second Coming" and his book "A Vision'.

So I had some little knowledge of the the Theosophical Society when after graduating from university, I opened an office in an old building downtown. As it happened, there was an office of the Theosophical Society next door to my office and occupied by two little old ladies. I thought of the Theosophical society then as some sort of antiquated group of little old people....forgetting of course, what my friend had told me several years before about the coming new age.

A few years later, I arrived home one Friday night, turned on the television and there was a program on that attracted my attention. It was someone I not heard of giving a talk: a younger Benjamin Creme. I watched the program because he was introduced as being from the Theosophical Society.

Well, Benjamin Creme used to be a pretty convincing speaker. The topic of his talk was that Christ was back on earth. I thought this was totally ridiculous but the strange thing was this: Benjamin was such a good speaker then that I actually started to believe him even though I thought he was talking a lot of crap. When my room mate came home I told her about the show. I told her that even though I thought it was a load of crap; he was such a good speaker that I started to believe him.

Now, here is the really strange part that I never thought about until many years later: the television program was going to be on the next night as well which was Saturday night. It was also going to be on on Sunday night same time....and all prime time. It never occured to me then how not only strange but expensive a prime time one hour BCTV spot would be. At that point, I was mostly amazed how a guy I never heard of could say something as ridiculous as Christ is back on earth and it sounded believable. My room mate said she would watch it the next night and she told me she had exactly the same experience as me...she was sure it was crap but she still believed it....we were still hooked on the then quite impressive speaking skills of Mr. Creme.

It wasn't until years later...after the Ziegeist movie came out that I thought about the expensive prime time spot on BCTV three nights a row on the weekend juxtaposed with the cheap little office in an old building downtown occupied by the two little old ladies with an old desk and some fading magazines. The reason I thought about it was because I was wondering who put up all the money for the promotion of the Zeiteist movie and who was behind it all.

The thing that interested me most about Zeitgeist was the use of the information about 9/11 which was compelling coupled with this bit at the beginning about Christianity which was really a half truth. But because it was with the 9/11 information; it seemed much more credible and people were so impressed. Because of the propaganda about Christianity at the beginning of Zeitgeist I knew, even before I knew about Jordan Maxwell, that the Theosophical Society was behind Zeitgeist.

Then there is Jordan Maxwell himself who isn't that impressive to me. I watched a couple of videos of him giving talks at various places and it seems to me he is a bit simplistic and obviously obsessed with sex. So my interest in Jordan Maxwell is quite limited and I think he doesn't really have that much to say. I also felt, although I could be wrong, that he was trying to set himself up as a kind of prophet of the new age.

I don't really understand why the Theosophical society is using Jordan Maxwell to promote their message. They have some pretty incredible and brilliant people on their team but maybe they think he will appeal to some people.

I guess I should add that because of the experiences that I've had; the way I see things is sometimes a bit different. What is happening in the world seems so much like a play with a script. I know it does to many people as well. But I knew that Yeats as well as others hated the passivity of Christianity and were excited about the coming of the new heroic age. They could be wrong. All this could be the manipulations of some devil determined to take over the earth and its inhabitants who has lied to the Theosophists to make them think the new heroic age will not be an age of evil. But I think not. I always remember my Christian friend, Steve. One day I finally told him he was going to grow roots out of his ass and get stuck to the couch. Not that I dislike Christianity (personally, I think the real message was perverted early on). I just think there is a point to be made here and now everyone is learning to be involved.

I definitely don't see history in terms of Yeats' Gyres. That is much too neat. I think Christianity never really got off the ground. Either that, or its a failed philosophy, perverted in itself and we should get rid of it. I am fairly certain that Christ was not a "Christian" as we know it and I do believe, if anything, the world at the moment is in that hands of a devil. I don't understand how anyone can read our history without running screaming from the room. The fact that high school and university students of history don't jump up in class and exclaim that we are all out of our minds is astounding to me. Our history is year after thousands of years of complete idiocy and we are supposed, in high school, to learn this crap as if it was something important. The only thing that is important about our history is that there can be no clearer indication that we are failing as a species and if we don't get out act together soon we don't deserve to be here.

[ThePythonicCow]

Seems like the OP has accused Maxwell of being disinfo - shouldn't that be censored too?
Maxwell isn't a member of this forum.

I'm not opposed to negativity ... just ask me (on some other thread, it would be off topic here) what I think of certain recent US Presidents :).

But I do make an effort to discourage having the discussion of negative topics spill over into a negative discussions of the qualities of other members.

[ThePythonicCow]

[Mod-edit: material deleted, as explained in Post #139 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520299&viewfull=1#post520299), below. Paul.]
I mod-edited one more post ... as I explained in Post #125 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47192-Jordan-Maxwell-debunked&p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115) above

[GCS1103]

Mad Hatter dons his semantic cap... (since so much of this is about semantics)

Hiya GCS1103 no malice intended but it struck me that when you wrote...


will never be swayed from that belief, no matter how many quotes, videos, etc. are shown to us.

followed by...


I'm not a "fundamentalist" nor a fanatic.

could it not be percieved by some of the audience that these statements taken together are slightly at odds? For what is a fanatic if not someone who refuses to be swayed from a particular path? Just food for thought...


We won't have the facts until we leave this world we live in.

I agree but am fully prepared for a very rude shock which could go one way or the other. However as part of that understanding I will be asking for the 'creator(s)?' definition of paradise.:p

One must also keep in mind the very real possibility that when one dies one is simply put in a hole in the ground and your best friends get to throw dirt in your face one last time which if one is to be reasonable is not wholly out of the bounds of possibility.


Until that time, I hope we can all respect each other, and not criticize what is "the truth" for each of us.

Once again I tend to agree but it seems to me the difficulty here is in attempting to discuss the nature of an individuals core beliefs, Jordans, Whites, yours, mine, which filtered through the restrictions of language so often end up perceived as criticism despite the best of intentions thus bogging down any investigative attempts to get at, shall we say in light of my earlier post regarding fictions, the heart of the matter without causing some discomfort for all involved.

Having said that I do really appreciate your input to this discussion, for that matter everyones, but suggest that some of the other participants keep in mind the utmost civility stemming from purest intent is a an absolute pre requisite for discussions of this nature. Obvious to some I know but seemingly not apparent for others....

Namaste

Hi, Mad Hatter-

Thanks for your response. It's the kind of post that I appreciate- civil and free of personal attack.

I said that nothing will sway me from my beliefs because, in my very being, I know my truth to be that God is real, God is my creator and when I was going through a very sad time in my life, I was filled with the holy spirit. It is just like that- my body was filled with a spirit of love and I knew it was from God. If people here want to believe that it was not a divine experience, so be it. The belief of others has, and never will, change what I know in my heart. On the other hand, I have never, and will never, attempt to argue or debate anyone else's core beliefs. This isn't a subject that can be debated with another, who is just as certain of their truths as I am of mine. For me, the bottom line is that we each have our own "knowledge" of what is true for us. What can another human being say that will change that knowledge?

This isn't a discussion of chem trails, global warming, or who the most corrupt politician is. Research and investigation are important to those answers. I am simply saying that if we have such a core belief, listening to someone else's words (spoken or written) will not change what we feel in our hearts. That's not to say that I don't find other viewpoints interesting; they just don't influence my beliefs. I wasn't indoctrinated into a religion when I was young, nor have I ever been. I don't spend my time in churches and I don't proselytize, ever. I don't think one person's beliefs are any more important or valid than another's. It's arrogant to suggest to anyone that their very foundation is faulty, nor as worthy as mine. So, Mad Hatter, that's how I feel. If that makes me a fundamentalist, I'll wear that badge.

You are right that we cannot discuss, without our own prejudices and conditioning, the personal values and beliefs that others share through their writings. All we can do is listen to what they have to say (in this case, we are discussing Jordan Maxwell) and acknowledge that the man has spent a good portion of his life studying and researching what was important to him. We can all agree he's a very dedicated man; that doesn't mean we have to agree with all his conclusions. This spirituality subject is a very touchy one, because it's so personal and such a big part of our make-up, as an individual. You merely need to read some of the posts to see some pretty heated reactions. It touches a nerve in all of us. The key is not to devalue one's points by attacking another personally. Once that is done, the credibility factor drops to zero. Plus, Paul comes in and wipes out your post.;) A very wise thing to do, in my opinion.

[Mad Hatter]

Hello again GCS1103

To be honest I was actually relying on your faith and self evident good manners to see if such an exercise might raise the bar concerning the current level of discourse on this thread. Rude of me not to have given you a heads up I know but that would have defeated the purpose somewhat by introducing a conspiratorial angle. I therfore thank you for your unwitting but intelligent assistance and hope you do not look upon my actions in too bad a light. Maybe the horses are at the water now but it remains to be seen if they choose to drink... ;)

Namaste

As for some of you I know a man with a carrot I'd like to introduce you to, consider it an opportunity for taking the fast path in terms of growing up!! :p

Hint: If Paul keeps editing your posts how the hell do I work out what your trying to say!?!! Sometimes it's the fourth of fifth draft on the second or third day that ends up suitable for posting...just sayin...

>resume normal program

[Strat]

Just watched the entire video. Here are my opinions:

I do find the 'on' thing hard to believe.

I also just don't believe his theory on manna. I have eaten those mushrooms. Many folks vomit after eating them (considered 'normal' by some) so it would be impossible to use that as sustenance.

That being said, I disagree with the debunkers opinion as well. I think JM is closer to the target. There is a book I want to get that delves into the theory that Christianity was originally a mushroom cult. That sounds very logical from the get go. So what's my opinion on what the Bible means by 'manna'? Frankly, I just don't know. But I just can't say I believe either party in this matter.

-----------
Now, one of my concerns about this video is the out of context tactic he uses. A short clip will play of a JM presentation, then the clip will pause, he will make a smart-ass remark (bad move), then mention his own opinion. See what I mean? He isn't proving JM to be a fraud, he is simply pointing out his difference in opinion. He'll simply translate things differently. We can all make up our own mind! How does this make JM a fraud?

There are a few instances where he will pause the video and say, "Jordan is wrong" (paraphrased) and then go to his next point. Yet, he doesn't back up his argument.

If I were to debunk someone, I wouldn't base the majority of my info on what Wikipedia says. Seriously, there's like 5 instances where he is showing a screen shot of Wikipedia. Imagine talking to both of these gentlemen while trying to decide who knows more of what they're talking about. JM makes multiple references to books, while the other keeps citing Wiki.

The Frank guy is simply a jackass. "If you read the words of the Bible it's very clear." (In reference to the story of fallen angles and Noah.) Nothing in the Bible is clear. And he says that Esoteric Symbolism is bs (again, paraphrased) because God wouldn't do that. God want's people in heaven so he would make it clear what people should do. Are you f------- kidding me?

This fellow without a doubt has an agenda, and the fact that we're 142 posts in shows that he's doing his job. I believe, at this moment, his agenda is simply promotion (garner traffic).

Serenity, you mentioned earlier that you don't agree with everything in the video (right? or am I crazy). What do you think? Am I being too harsh, missing the point or something like that? I don't mean to stir the pot. Speaking of which, when you master your secret BBQ recipe hit me up!

p.s. On a smaller note, I will bet everything I own that this fellow hasn't read the Hiram Key. He really, really should. I also think John Anthony West somehow flew under his radar.

p.p.s. JM is a tall dude, I never noticed that before haha.

[mountain_jim]

Just watched the entire video. Here are my opinions:

I do find the 'on' thing hard to believe.

I also just don't believe his theory on manna. I have eaten those mushrooms. Many folks vomit after eating them (considered 'normal' by some) so it would be impossible to use that as sustenance.

That being said, I disagree with the debunkers opinion as well. I think JM is closer to the target. There is a book I want to get that delves into the theory that Christianity was originally a mushroom cult. That sounds very logical from the get go. So what's my opinion on what the Bible means by 'manna'? Frankly, I just don't know. But I just can't say I believe either party in this matter.


I have that book. (original hardback edition) And it was signed in person for me by it's author :)

(edit - well actually there are several - I mispoke)

The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross theory first proposed in 1970 by Biblical scholar John M. Allegro as to the origins of Christianity

Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GnMjdqKlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Food of the Gods: The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge A Radical History of Plants, Drugs, and Human Evolution



From Kirkus Reviews
The ethnobotanist co-author of Psilocybin: The Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide (not reviewed) puts forth the theory that magic mushrooms are the original ``tree of knowledge'' and that the general lack of psychedelic exploration is leading Western society toward eventual collapse or destruction--controversial statements, to say the least, though the argument's details often prove fascinating. In the beginning, McKenna tells us, there were protohumans with small brains and plenty of genetic competition, and what eventually separated the men from the apes was an enthusiasm for the hallucinogenic mushrooms that grew on the feces of local cattle. Claiming that psilocybin in the hominid diet would have enhanced eyesight, sexual enjoyment, and language ability and would have thereby placed the mushroom-eaters in the front lines of genetic evolution--eventually leading to hallucinogen-ingesting shamanistic societies, the ancient Minoan culture, and some Amazonian tribes today--McKenna also asserts that the same drugs are now outlawed in the US because of their corrosive effect on our male-dominated, antispiritual society. Unconsciously craving the vehicles by which our ancestors expanded their imaginations and found meaning in their lives, he says, we feast on feeble substitutes: coffee, sugar, and chocolate, which reinforce competition and aggressiveness; tobacco, which destroys our bodies; alcohol, whose abuse leads to male violence and female degradation; TV, which deadens our senses; and the synthetics--heroin, cocaine and their variations--which leave us victimized by our own addiction. On the other hand, argues McKenna, magic mushrooms, used in a spiritually enlightened, ritual manner, can open the door to greater consciousness and further the course of human evolution- -legalization of all drugs therefore is, he says, an urgent necessity. Provocative words--often captivating, but not often convincing. -- Copyright ©1991, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.


another review



Food of the Gods explores mankind's connection with the Earth as an organism. The author's speculations on our long lost mutualist relationship with plants has deep implications in science and offers sound insight into modern conditions of human iniquity.

To give you an idea, McKenna postulates that:
- The loss of the feminine in today's 'dominator' cultures
has been further catalyzed by our abuse of plants, drugs,
and nature as a whole

- The psychedelic experience, with its ego dissolving effects
represents an important component of the symbiosis of man
on Earth

- The striking similarities in the chemical structures of
neurotransmitters in the brain and indole compounds in
hallucinogenic plants are no coincidence

Despite the exhaustively researched and largely scholarly presentation of this work, unfounded criticism ensues when the subject matter stands as evidence in the indictment of many commonly held belief systems. However, most often the tone of McKenna's opponents caries the confident smirk of one safely distanced from his fierce intelligence, by their lack of experience with psychedelics.

Terrence McKenna didn't write for the amusement of those unfamiliar with the psychedelic experience. It was well within his mental capacity and scholarly abilities to legitimize his work for an audience of intellectual indifference. I wont say it's easier, but it certainly displays less integrity and truth of cause for one to cater to the lowest common denominator when attempting to relate ideas of this scope, even if they are only speculative.

Neither was it that the uninitiated were intentionally ignored and his priceless intellectual contribution was meant to be out of reach from common people, in an extension of Huxley's philosophy which he is often mistaken for representing.

Rather, his weakness seems to be his naivety in assuming that people inexperienced with psychedelics would approach his work with the unbiased mindfulness due of a reader of any great work of cultural and spiritual diagnosis.

The fact is that any intelligent, honest approach to this work will inevitably lead one to an intersection with a reality that cannot be negated.
Those who are experienced with psychedelics are likely to find in this book truths which they will integrate without hesitance - truths with implications profound enough to dissolve many of the illusions that largely pass as fact.

This book is a powerful catalyst of intellectual growth for anyone engaged in the pursuit to understand this world.



I thought Terence made an excellent case myself, and my own direct experiments with this 'food' did not hurt his case with me either. :)

[CdnSirian]

The Hiram Key - excellent book.

[Khaleesi]

What do you think? Am I being too harsh, missing the point or something like that?

Strat, I know you are addressing Serenity but I wanted to respond to your thoughtful post. I agree, Chris White could have easily used some references other than Wiki. He could have made a longer video and included more references for where he got what people are calling 'his opinion'. He says 'this is wrong' etc and explains why, but should have included references to show this is not his opinion alone. If I take the points where he disagrees with JM and do my own research using some reputable references (etymology etc.) I find most of Chris White's arguments with JM are reasonable. For instance, wordsmithing English words instead of the original language that an article, text etc becomes a real problem. Try doing this with the original languages (Ancient Egyptian, Hebrew etc.) and it doesn't work. This has always been a problem for me when I've watched JM.

Does he take JM out of context? I don't think so, but that is my opinion. He doesn't take two word clips. He takes whole statements and then disagrees with JM. Does he have an agenda? Hmmm. I can't read his mind and don't know him personally so I really don't know. He is dealing with the Biblical aspect so you could say his agenda is to promote Christianity. The same could be said of JM since Blavatsky is clearly JM's reference point. I don't really care other than I want to know truth and from that aspect JM's lectures are not logical to me since he doesn't use original languages or in some cases distorts and changes the known and documented meanings of words.

[gripreaper]

Jordan is not an etymologist and his context is astrotheology. Chris White is not a researcher and his context is bible thumping fundamentalist christian.

What did you expect? That's why I have avoided this thread like a ten foot pole. it was doomed from the OP.

[Laurel]

What about manna being used to help people talk to God because it was a psychedelic mushroom? Do you really think people could eat 3 liters of mushrooms a day and even live to talk about it? Where in the bible does it mention manna is to help people talk to God?

"7 characteristics: Small, round, wafer-like, sweet, can be hard, can be melted, and from heaven"

Obviously manna is Twinkies

Seriously though, there are good arguments on both sides. One thing that no one has mentioned yet is that JM in this video is talking about Judaism being a solar religion, which is not correct. It is a lunar religion. Shabbat, holidays, etc begin and end at sundown and are based on the lunar calendar. I cannot remember a single prayer or verse from the Torah or Talmud which is sun worship.

On the other hand, the JM in this video is a very differently portrayed JM than is in the PC interview (which I adored). It's like two completely different people talking.

[GCS1103]

Jordan is not an etymologist and his context is astrotheology. Chris White is not a researcher and his context is bible thumping fundamentalist christian.

What did you expect? That's why I have avoided this thread like a ten foot pole. it was doomed from the OP.

On the contrary, I think this thread has very lively debates and the members have made some really good contributions, on all sides of the fence. I would substitute "doomed" with "engaging". Unified Serenity makes this forum a more interesting place and gets us thinking. I'm waiting for her next thread...:popcorn:

[gripreaper]

Jordan is not an etymologist and his context is astrotheology. Chris White is not a researcher and his context is bible thumping fundamentalist christian.

What did you expect? That's why I have avoided this thread like a ten foot pole. it was doomed from the OP.

On the contrary, I think this thread has very lively debates and the members have made some really good contributions, on all sides of the fence. I would substitute "doomed" with "engaging". Unified Serenity makes this forum a more interesting place and gets us thinking. I'm waiting for her next thread...:popcorn:

Maybe you missed all of the ad hominem attacks? They were deleted by the mods, since this thread has not stayed on topic but maybe a few posts in 8 pages. Your entitled to your opinion. I just can't see what it is based on. No matter. This post is an example of NOT being on topic.

[Unified Serenity]

Thank you Strat for your very thoughtful and engaging post, this is more of the exchange I have been looking for. I will answer the things I think are appropriate for me to address. I respect your opinion so I can't address that as it's your opinion and you like me are entitled to it.



Now, one of my concerns about this video is the out of context tactic he uses. A short clip will play of a JM presentation, then the clip will pause, he will make a smart-ass remark (bad move), then mention his own opinion. See what I mean? He isn't proving JM to be a fraud, he is simply pointing out his difference in opinion. He'll simply translate things differently. We can all make up our own mind! How does this make JM a fraud?

Well, I don't think he was taking JM out of context, and thus he spoke to statements made by JM that are pretty assumptive on JM's part in my opinion. JM will say something like, "It's known" or "The experts agree" as if that makes it a fact. I have actually heard JM tell people when pressed for a source to back up his work so they can validate the veracity of the scholarship of the source, that he doesn't have the time to go dig that up again or something to that effect, and then basically tells them to go do their own research, which is fine, but he certainly is not standing up to "peer" review then, and he is the one doing the teaching. If someone is going to put themselves out there in public as an expert then they should be able to back up their facts with data. So, you do have a point about Chris making his own assumptive remarks that he should have backed up his comments with some hard data and where to find it so we can verify his sources. Yes, he is a Christian and comes from that background. I know where he is coming from and why he would say that's wrong or maybe I am assuming I know where he is coming from because of my own studies.

As for JM being a fraud, what is the definition of a fraud?

1.deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/breach) of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.

2.a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election frauds.

3.any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and a waste of time.

4.a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fraud

The whole Jordanus Maximus part I do think is fraudulent. He wants us to believe he never heard of that term until a Rabbi emailed that to him? Despite Jordan openly saying he is a big fan of Helena Blavatsky. I mean when he was asked if he had ever heard of "Helena Blavatsky", Jordan cuts the woman off who was asking him and he gives Ms. Blavatsky's full name and says he most certainly knows of her. He says he is very impressed with her and his favorite book of hers is "Isis Unveiled" where we read:




NAZARENE.

First Trinity.
Lord FERHO — the Life which is no Life — the Supreme God. The Cause which produces the Light, or the Logos inabscondito. The water of Jordanus Maximus — the water of Life, or Ajar, the feminine principle. Unity in a Trinity, enclosed within the ISH AMON.
Second Trinity.
(The manifestation of the first.)

1. Lord MANO — the King of Life and Light — Rex Lucis. First LIFE, or the primitive man.
2. Lord Jordan — manifestation or emanation of Jordan Maximus — the waters of grace. Second LIFE.
3. The Superior Father — Abatur. Third LIFE.
This Trinity produces also a duad — Lord Ledhoio, and Fetahil, the genius (the former, a perfect emanation, the latter, imperfect).
from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/isis/iu2-07a.htm
So, do you really think the man born Russell Pine just happened to change his name to Jordan Maxwell on a fluke? The evidence does not seem to say so. Of course, there is no way to prove it, he can say it all he wants that one day he just woke up and said, "Hmmmm, I think I will change my name to Jordan Maxwell" and then Shazam! later down the road, "Well, I'll be gosh darned, it has some meaning!" Jordan Maxwell does not strike me as a man who does things without much forethought and research. Changing one's name is not a small matter, and most people put some thought into the name they choose. I think those who want to dismiss this are really not willing to even consider the facts in this and admit, it doesn't look like Mr. Maxwell has been completely honest and more than likely is being deceitful with this pretense of a Rabbi sending him an email.





There are a few instances where he will pause the video and say, "Jordan is wrong" (paraphrased) and then go to his next point. Yet, he doesn't back up his argument.

If I were to debunk someone, I wouldn't base the majority of my info on what Wikipedia says. Seriously, there's like 5 instances where he is showing a screen shot of Wikipedia. Imagine talking to both of these gentlemen while trying to decide who knows more of what they're talking about. JM makes multiple references to books, while the other keeps citing Wiki.I think I addressed part of this already, but I will add that I too do not like wiki; however, it does not mean wiki is wrong. It just is not a trusted source for factual research because anyone can post on a topic. I think the real issue now, is if someone does care about facts and research, and not blindly following what some man, no matter how well respects, says, then it's really up to us to do that research if we care. I do care, and have been busy doing my own research. I am waiting to hear back from an expert Linguist now, but it may take some time and he may not want to get involved as I want to interview him on specific issues raised by JM about astrotheology and historical claims Maxwell makes. What I am seeing from those who love JM is they don't care to do any fact checking and anything that comes from a Christian is just **** and close the topic. They can do that, but then I hope they don't think they really are a truth seeker, because, I truly enjoyed JM until a few days ago, and now I am kicking myself in the ass as I dig up more information. Depending on how things go here, I may or may not post it because if no one wants to hear it, then I won't create strife for them. I will just post on my blog what I find and my opinions on the matter. I do think there is a very old plan the elites have worked on, they have a system of doing things, and sadly, I do now think JM plays a part in it either knowingly or not. I can't judge his heart.


The Frank guy is simply a jackass. "If you read the words of the Bible it's very clear." (In reference to the story of fallen angles and Noah.) Nothing in the Bible is clear. And he says that Esoteric Symbolism is bs (again, paraphrased) because God wouldn't do that. God want's people in heaven so he would make it clear what people should do. Are you f------- kidding me? I have to go back over that section, because this may be were Chris White and I would have a very lively discussion. As a matter of fact the bible is very clear about Noah's day when you read it in it's original languages, and it's kind of an interesting coincidence, but I am working on that section for a blog post now. The fact of the matter, I have discussed it on other threads, and RedEzra and I have had some interesting discussions about it. I think the bible is extremely clear in that section, and the average Christian just doesn't like what it ultimately reveals. It's just too much of a mind ****. As a matter of fact, this section is so important to understand that Jesus specifically spoke regarding "As in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the son of man" which was one of Jesus / Yeshua's titles. Most people don't' dig into it, or know how to study it in the original texts so they just ignore it or trust what some person says. I am so thankful I had someone show me how to study in Hebrew, Greek and Chaldea. It's not that hard, but it seems to intellectual.


This fellow without a doubt has an agenda, and the fact that we're 142 posts in shows that he's doing his job. I believe, at this moment, his agenda is simply promotion (garner traffic).While I respect your right to think that, I don't know how you can know what his agenda is. I think he has an agenda, and that is to promote the truth as he understands it and since Jordan Maxwell has done so many presentations attacking Judeo - Christian texts and beliefs then that is part of his field of interest and profession. Look, we take the media to task for their lies about false flag events. How can we do that? What is our agenda? What gives us the right to put out videos, blog, facebook, emails, whatever that upset people who are just pursuing their truth? I mean the average joe or sadly some of our own families don't want to hear our latest psy-op, false flag, discovery of ancient artifacts truths! Yet, we do it to them. Jordan Maxwell is a public figure who lays claims out there that the foundational beliefs millions of people have are all false! How can he not expect someone to look into his claims and how can you on Avalon be offended that someone is challenging them, especially when Jordan makes some outrageous claims?


Serenity, you mentioned earlier that you don't agree with everything in the video (right? or am I crazy). What do you think? Am I being too harsh, missing the point or something like that? I don't mean to stir the pot. Speaking of which, when you master your secret BBQ recipe hit me up!Look, I could probably have started my OP out better. As I said later on, the other one I found on the old PA forum would have worked probably a bit better, but I was pretty upset when I found this stuff. It's been around a long time, and I have not gone looking to debunk Jordan Maxwell. I don't know if Khaleesi will want to comment, but I do a lot of research and drive her nuts with it at times so much so, I have to just put my headphones on and not go..."Oooh, look at this" or "Hey, watch this video" or "Did you read this article" because quite frankly her bullsh*t meter went off a long time before that and I won't let something go until I have exhausted every angle. When it came to the Jordan Maxwell videos and info on the NWO stuff I was impressed. I didn't get into the astrotheology stuff, didn't look for it, well because I know based on my research it does not hold up to scrutiny in my opinion. I know many here do believe it, and that's fine, but I have been doing a lot of research into it, how long ago these thoughts really existed on astrotheology verses what timeline we are told they existed. There are highly reputable ancient astrology experts who completely discount Acharya S, Jordan Maxwell, and others who teach it. That being said, I didn't even look for that stuff on Maxwell. I've read his other stuff, but for some reason I just didn't go there, and in my research I came across that video, and then watched a few of JM stuff on it, and I was floored! Khaleesi can vouch or not, she had to put up with me.

I think Chris White is a pretty standard "orthodox" fundamental Christian. I deal with them a lot. I know how he is going to view some of my more controversial positions on the bible. I also know he said a few things I went, "ok, whatever" and continued to listen because I don't expect everyone to be perfect and I make mistakes too. What I do expect is once one is made aware of their mistake to not act fraudulently / deceitfully and try to twist it around or ignore it. An honest person who is really a truth seeker will thank the person bringing the error to their attention, and they will correct the error. If they did the error publicly then they will admit it publicly. I don't see JM doing that, I don't see others in the truth community who are public figures doing that, and that my dear friends is fraudulent and deceitful in my book.

When I perfect my bbq, I will pm the recipe. It's almost there... dewicious!

[ThePythonicCow]

This thread is re-opened, after being closed for the last half hour.

I removed the last few posts, and gave one member a three day vacation.

Please find a way to speak to the topic of this thread, with respect for fellow forum members.

[Strat]

Thanks for the reply Serenity. If I wasn't so pressed for time I'd give you a decent reply as well. I am particularly interested in the Noah's Ark subject. I find that to be mysterious for lack of a better word. The Sumerian version is quite different. Maybe that's another thread though, I don't want to derail the topic on semantics.

@Mountain Jim: That's not the book I was talking about, but I wasn't aware of that one. I'll have to check it out. Thanks!

[observer]

Back in the mid 70's, I first learned about the Reptilian agenda. This was long before the world even heard of David Icke, so when he came along, it was evidential verification of what I had already learned.

During those years, I also learned there was a much Bigger Cosmic Picture than most individuals are aware, here within this particular reality. Long ago I learned, within the context of the "Bigger Picture", it is a violation of Cosmic Law to manipulate a population into servitude without first informing that population of your intentions, thereby gaining permission, by proxy.

This is the "true" purpose of Hollywood - to inform the Masses of the intentions of those Dark Reptilian Masters, through clever revelations designed to inform, yet confuse, thereby releasing those Masters from any liability within the context of Universal Law.

Thus, the name, Hollywood.

Traditionally, the magicians wand, or staff was made from the wood of a holly tree. It's all about the manipulation of the Masses through Magic Ritual.


Arthur C. Clark:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

This is how these Hyperdimensional Reptiles have been able to do what they've been doing for so long without any interference from benevolent hyperdimensional entities - they have our permission, by proxy.

I'm not certain of Jordan Maxwell's agenda as I can't speak for Mr. Maxwell. I can testify that Maxwell's videos have informed me of the meaning of symbology - which is Maxwell's area of expertise. His word associations may be a bit off target, but his interpretations of symbols are right-on-the-money.

Is Mr. Maxwell's agenda more of the Controllers informing the Masses in order to relieve themselves of any liability? You be the judge.

It is the responsibility of each individual to learn from any lesson presented. Only through individual understanding can we each assume the responsibility of releasing our individual self from this matrix, in which we are locked.

This I can say for certain. When searching for the Truth, one must be willing to follow each and every evidential trail. A true pilgrim of the 'Truth' cannot lock his mind into a box of dogma. One must be willing to look at all aspects of any understanding. This is mandatory action in investigative research.

Assuming you have found all the answers within the context of a failed religious dogma - a dogma that has served the manipulators of control well - is analogous to delusional behavior.

I have read comments in this (and many other threads of this forum) that have expressed an unwillingness to look at any new evidence. My question to those who are unwilling to look at every aspect of an investigation would be: "What are you doing on this forum"?

Avalon is a forum of investigation. Debunking the investigators is counterproductive to the process.

....And, additionally, I personally would never be so presumptuous to come into my host's house and slander his good friends. Debunking Jordan Maxwell is the same as slandering the host's friends inside the host's house, as both Kerry and Bill are good friends of Jordan Maxwell.

I say to the debunkers in this thread, show some respect, we are all guests in this house....

[Unified Serenity]

Thanks for your reply Observer. It seems a bit hard to say we must all be able to question via our investigations and then intimate that doing this regarding Maxwell is poor form as the host of this site is a good friend of Maxwell's. Are you saying that or are you just saying the way I opened this thread could have been better? I have already stated that, so at this point, I would like to continue the investigation of the veracity of Mr. Maxwell's claims.

[observer]

Thanks for your reply Observer. It seems a bit hard to say we must all be able to question via our investigations and then intimate that doing this regarding Maxwell is poor form as the host of this site is a good friend of Maxwell's. Are you saying that or are you just saying the way I opened this thread could have been better? I have already stated that, so at this point, I would like to continue the investigation of the veracity of Mr. Maxwell's claims.

The veracity of Mr. Maxwell's claims are self evident.


He leaves a lot to be questioned with his word associations.
He has much to teach with regard to his expertise in symbology.

.... and yes, I wouldn't have started a thread attacking the jugular of Mr. Maxwell without first giving some explanation of my intentions, i.e. finding fault with some of Jordan's message.

Jordan Maxwell is an icon within the community, whether he is a shill on not, there is much to be learned from his message.

Are any of us so perfect that we don't misinterpret evidence from time-to-time?

[GCS1103]

Perhaps if Unified Serenity, or some other member would have started a thread entitled "Jesus is a fake" it would be more palatable to some here?
I will go out on a limb and say, since I have met Bill Ryan personally, I don't think he would forbid any member from speaking their minds about a "whistleblower" so long as one is not slanderous. He's a very fair individual and I believe there could be some "whistleblowers" that he may not resonate with either. (I don't mean to be presumptuous, Bill, but I think you may have one or two that you no longer agree with).

[Unified Serenity]

Perhaps if Unified Serenity, or some other member would have started a thread entitled "Jesus is a fake" it would be more palatable to some here?
I will go out on a limb and say, since I have met Bill Ryan personally, I don't think he would forbid any member from speaking their minds about a "whistleblower" so long as one is not slanderous. He's a very fair individual and I believe there could be some "whistleblowers" that he may not resonate with either. (I don't mean to be presumptuous, Bill, but I think you may have one or two that you no longer agree with).

Thanks Goldie, but it seems to me threads like that start all the time, and posts that say that are all over Avalon, but it's quite ok to say that, just don't ever ever question a whistle blower or "teacher" of new age philosophy or that is ugly, rude, and deserving of the "treatment". LOL

I do have to say a large thank you to the Mods who have done an excellent job of trying to keep this thread on track and stopping members who have made inappropriate posts and the subsequent posts rebutting them.

[Unified Serenity]

Maybe this should be asked on another thread, but ...

This is not part of the discussion of this thread, but you are welcome to make one of your own if you like. I would appreciate we stick to the topic of this thread, and not try to change it to a topic you would prefer.

===

[Mod-edit: The original version of gripreaper's post, and various replies to it, did indeed seem to me like appropriate material for another thread. So I moved these posts to a new thread called Being filled with the Holy Spirit (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47338-Being-filled-with-the-Holy-Spirit), leaving just this one vestige of that interaction behind here, to serve as a cross-linking post. -Paul.]

[jackovesk]

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/customavatars/avatar50_6.gif

Perhaps US (Unified Serenity), you could provide a 'Baby Photo' to show your 'Detractors' that your NOT the OGRE some make you out to be...:pound:

I'm a Fan of ANYONE who has the GUTS to continually Question & Challenge others to rise above their petty beliefs and force them to do their Homework in order to remain in the debate...

Why are the harshest 'Critics' (Always the Ones) who rarely start their own 'Threads' and NEVER EVER have the GUTS to put their own Head on the chopping-block and open themselves up for ridicule...:confused:

Although at times we may disagree US...



Jordan Maxwell debunked...?

IMHO Jordan Maxwell is one of the 'Good Guys' :thumb: who is nearing his return home...

I can quite confidently say "NO WAY - Is JM a Shill for the NWO..!


It doesn't take away from the Fact that You Rock US :rockon: - Keep up the Good-work...:thumb:

...and to the US Detractors I say "Have a Good Look in the Mirror" and start a Thread "Putting your Truth on Line" opening yourself up for ridicule, by going up-against the majority which may (Rock-the-Boat)..!? and See just how long you can remain in the Debate...:confused:

See, its more difficult than you may of thought isn't it...:yes4:

If &/or When the SHTF US..?

I want you right there along side me fighting the PTW/OWO from the trenches...:fencing:

[Unified Serenity]

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/customavatars/avatar50_6.gif

Perhaps US (Unified Serenity), you could provide a 'Baby Photo' to show your 'Detractors' that your NOT the OGRE some make you out to be...:pound:

I'm a Fan of ANYONE who has the GUTS to continually Question & Challenge others to rise above their petty beliefs and force them to do their Homework in order to remain in the debate...

Why are the harshest 'Critics' (Always the Ones) who rarely start their own 'Threads' and NEVER EVER have the GUTS to put their own Head on the chopping-block and open themselves up for ridicule...:confused:

Although at times we may disagree US...



Jordan Maxwell debunked...?

IMHO Jordan Maxwell is one of the 'Good Guys' :thumb: who is nearing his return home...

I can quite confidently say "NO WAY - Is JM a Shill for the NWO..!


It doesn't take away from the Fact that You Rock US :rockon: - Keep up the Good-work...:thumb:

...and to the US Detractors I say "Have a Good Look in the Mirror" and start a Thread "Putting your Truth on Line" opening yourself up for ridicule, by going up-against the majority which may (Rock-the-Boat)..!? and See just how long you can remain in the Debate...:confused:

See, its more difficult than you may of thought isn't it...:yes4:

If &/or When the SHTF US..?

I want you right there along side me fighting the PTW/OWO from the trenches...:fencing:

You've got my solemn pledge to be right there by your side Jack! I am starting to realize that much is not as it seems. I have information I am investigating in other areas, and lots of irons in the fire so to speak, but it's like when building a house, you have to do a lot of foundational work and it doesn't look like much until you get to a certain point and then everything comes together, and the work is done. I have been working on "The Plan" for almost 20 years, and this past year which I stepped out of the rat race, I have dedicated myself to looking into these "foundational" things, and well, as I said, the more I find out, the more things are not as they seem.

We on Avalon know the general population is being lied to an manipulated, it's so obvious to us. Now, imagine that the enemy is not stupid, and expect truth seekers to be looking as well. Is it impossible for us to be manipulated and used for their goals and purposes as well? Isn't our very existence the divide and conquer aspect compared to the asleep? So, how awake are you if you have never really tried to verify what you are told? Are you so different than someone raised in a belief system who accepts that as truth and never really looks for the misdirections? I mean, why look for misdirection when you like what you think you know? It sounds right, feels right, and gosh darn it, you have a lot of friends telling you it's right. If you believe there is more to our existence than this life, meaning you are an eternal or at least not limited to this clay body being, do you think it matters a tinkers damn how many agreed with you in regards to your choices, actions, and beliefs?

Each one of us is responsible for our own soul. We make up our minds, but if we won't look for whatever reasons, are our minds made up based on facts or just what made us feel right / good? That's for each one of us to decide. For me, it does matter, and I will not follow anyone or believe anything without thoroughly investigating all sides of it, and in the future if someone comes to me and says, "Yeh, well did you know this?" I want to know what they have to say, and then it's up to me to investigate the veracity of the claims. I think the reason I was most upset with this whole Maxwell issue is I did know a lot of the symbolism already which he talks about, and so I was comfortable with him. I was not into astrotheology and did not examine his presentations on that really, and had I taken my own friggin advice years ago, I would have examined where he is coming from and done a proper investigation which I DID NOT DO then, and making amends for it now. Love me, hate me, don't give a damn about me, it matters not in the grand scheme of things. I appreciate the love, I am used to the hate, and I like the love better, but I cannot let others views of me determine my self worth, honor, integrity or actions.

I have always been honest with you all. I am telling your right now, that there is a lot you don't know about some of our "Pillars" of the alternative media / truth movement and you do yourself a disservice in my opinion by just believing what they say because it resonates with you, but that's your right to do so.

Jack, thank you for your post. All those who have contributed thoughtful words here showing the heart of a truth seeker, I thank you. It does make me feel like I am not alone completely in my passion for truth. Always know there is a remnant.

[Mad Hatter]

On topic - Check out handshake(s) at the end of JMs interview with Sitchin. One very normal followed by one very Masonic...:confused:

Off topic - but in response to the 'Manna' aspect some might like to watch 'The Pharmacratic Inquisition' (fascinating collection of data points) and others may find interesting David Hudsons speculations on it being white powder (Monoatomic) gold.

>resume normal program ;)

PS sorry got nuthin for the rabid detractors :p

[ProperLogic]

You've got my solemn pledge to be right there by your side Jack! I am starting to realize that much is not as it seems. I have information I am investigating in other areas, and lots of irons in the fire so to speak, but it's like when building a house, you have to do a lot of foundational work and it doesn't look like much until you get to a certain point and then everything comes together, and the work is done. I have been working on "The Plan" for almost 20 years, and this past year which I stepped out of the rat race, I have dedicated myself to looking into these "foundational" things, and well, as I said, the more I find out, the more things are not as they seem.

We on Avalon know the general population is being lied to an manipulated, it's so obvious to us. Now, imagine that the enemy is not stupid, and expect truth seekers to be looking as well. Is it impossible for us to be manipulated and used for their goals and purposes as well? Isn't our very existence the divide and conquer aspect compared to the asleep? So, how awake are you if you have never really tried to verify what you are told? Are you so different than someone raised in a belief system who accepts that as truth and never really looks for the misdirections? I mean, why look for misdirection when you like what you think you know? It sounds right, feels right, and gosh darn it, you have a lot of friends telling you it's right. If you believe there is more to our existence than this life, meaning you are an eternal or at least not limited to this clay body being, do you think it matters a tinkers damn how many agreed with you in regards to your choices, actions, and beliefs?

Each one of us is responsible for our own soul. We make up our minds, but if we won't look for whatever reasons, are our minds made up based on facts or just what made us feel right / good? That's for each one of us to decide. For me, it does matter, and I will not follow anyone or believe anything without thoroughly investigating all sides of it, and in the future if someone comes to me and says, "Yeh, well did you know this?" I want to know what they have to say, and then it's up to me to investigate the veracity of the claims. I think the reason I was most upset with this whole Maxwell issue is I did know a lot of the symbolism already which he talks about, and so I was comfortable with him. I was not into astrotheology and did not examine his presentations on that really, and had I taken my own friggin advice years ago, I would have examined where he is coming from and done a proper investigation which I DID NOT DO then, and making amends for it now. Love me, hate me, don't give a damn about me, it matters not in the grand scheme of things. I appreciate the love, I am used to the hate, and I like the love better, but I cannot let others views of me determine my self worth, honor, integrity or actions.

I have always been honest with you all. I am telling your right now, that there is a lot you don't know about some of our "Pillars" of the alternative media / truth movement and you do yourself a disservice in my opinion by just believing what they say because it resonates with you, but that's your right to do so.

Jack, thank you for your post. All those who have contributed thoughtful words here showing the heart of a truth seeker, I thank you. It does make me feel like I am not alone completely in my passion for truth. Always know there is a remnant.

*Sigh*

Unified Serenity, I love you...! You amaze me! :dance:

[observer]

The problem with Christian Fundamentalism, individuals in the class of Chris White, and consequently, those who spend their energies debunking "Pilgrims of the Truth", the likes of Jordan Maxwell, is that they are supporting the very 'tool' used to keep the Mass of Humanity locked in a vile prison of Satanic Blood Ritual Sacrifice - since the Dawn of Man

I honor men like Jordan Maxwell for their courage to step-out of the prison of dogma and shed a light on the Darkness behind what motivates world conditions - ever since the system was created.

See this comment for more insight:


Click-on forwarding arrow to see content of comment.

[Unified Serenity]

The problem with Christian Fundamentalism, individuals in the class of Chris White, and consequently, those who spend their energies debunking "Pilgrims of the Truth", the likes of Jordan Maxwell, is that they are supporting the very 'tool' used to keep the Mass of Humanity locked in a vile prison of Satanic Blood Ritual Sacrifice - since the Dawn of Man

I honor men like Jordan Maxwell for their courage to step-out of the prison of dogma and shed a light on the Darkness behind what motivates world conditions - ever since the system was created.

See this comment for more insight:


Click-on forwarding arrow to see content of comment.

I would have no problems with Maxwell if he were actually dealing with dogma, but he is instead making false claims about the origin of Christianity and not backing his information up with anything a real ancient history scholar would find credible. The whole astrotheology teaching makes assumptive statements and quotes obscure sources, and upon actual critical peer review one finds that their very core elements do not hold up about ancient astrology. I seriously wonder if those who really support these theories of Maxwell and others such as Acharya S. have ever really examined their sources. Maxwell often used the standard sort of broad brush statements, and says check him out. Well, check him out, and see if his sources are respected in any real historical research sort of scholarship communities. Having some guy from 1800 who had no formal training in Egyptology but wants to teach about it really isn't trustworthy. He should be able to back up his statements condemning the foundation of Christianity or Judaism with more than they worship the sun and it's obvious because they worship the son of God, and then linking everyhting back to that via weird linguistics and astrology. I find it pretty funny that he doesn't even think that maybe the elites got into the Church way back after it was started and realized if they can't beat them then join them and use them.

Maxwell's buddy Lucifer shot two birds with one stone doing that. He helped wipe out small bands of pagans, solidified the power of his children which aided in taking over control of whole regions. Then having joined the church, murdered countless people through the church he hates, he turns around and blames the church 800 years later. It's a perfect Hegelian Dialectic.

Problem = Church

Crisis = Inquisition / spiritual lies

Solution = New Age Mystery Babylon

I also sort of see what Maxwell has done as sort of Good Cop / Bad Cop tactics. He exposes the political new world order machine and then does not recognize their workings within the church to destroy the church, and uses all their negative stuff to denounce the church and promote Theosophy and astrotheology.

[observer]

[....snip]
".... but he is instead making false claims about the origin of Christianity and not backing his information up with anything a real ancient history scholar would find credible. The whole astrotheology teaching makes assumptive statements and quotes obscure sources, and upon actual critical peer review one finds that their very core elements do not hold up about ancient astrology".
[....snip]


Serenity,

I most humbly object to your line of reasoning.

May I point-out, the very systems of higher learning you are insisting be the litmus test for 'Truth and Understanding', i.e. the peer review system of 'credentialed' PhD's, and other 'legitimate' experts, is an extension of what can be defined as "The Oxford Template of Learning".

This is all part of a system that was expressly designed to compartmentalize any true understanding into drawers in some warehouse and mark those discoveries 'anomalous'.

If, what you say is correct, than you must apply the same rigid standards to researchers like:


Lloyd Pie (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2335499), "Everything You Know Is Wrong (http://www.lloydpye.com/eykiw.htm)".

Michael Cremo, "Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race (http://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Archeology-Hidden-History-Human/dp/0892132949)".

Richard Hoagland (http://projectcamelot.org/richard_hoagland.html), "Dark Missions (http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Mission-Secret-History-NASA/dp/1932595260)"

Joseph Farrell (http://projectcamelot.org/joseph_farrell.html), "Yahweh, The Two Faced God (http://www.lulu.com/shop/joseph-p-farrell-and-scott-d-de-hart/yahweh-the-two-faced-god/paperback/product-18879875.html)"

The above links are just a sampling of the work of these truth researchers.



Lets also include:

Jim Marrs (http://projectcamelot.org/jim_marrs.html)
Peter Levenda (http://projectcamelot.org/peter_levenda.html)
David Icke (http://projectcamelot.org/david_icke.html)
Klaus Dona (http://projectcamelot.org/klaus_dona.html)
Richard Dolan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=veQ-LCjDCAc)
Henry Deacon (http://projectcamelot.org/henry_deacon.html)
John Lear
(http://projectcamelot.org/john_lear.html) Even our own, Bill Ryan

Why not 'toilet paper' the entire living room?.... teardown the very fabric of the truth movement.... and return to the futile systems created by Biblical Christianity.

Something MUST change.... and Jordan Maxwell, as imperfect as you may perceive him, represents a small step in that change.

Dare anyone question the sacred halls of orthodox learning....

[Unified Serenity]

There is a difference in presenting actual artifacts from antiquity like Klaus Donna does. Things we cannot produce today like the magnetic goblet and such with the solar system visible on it when hit with a black light, and citing as proof of his (Maxwell's) thinking from non-educated people who claim to be historians. Their "proof" does not check out under scrutiny. I guess, I will now have to post the information about Acharya S. work that she has reworked because she had to admit her "sources" were not up to speed, so she went and found obscure sources from other countries that when fact checked actually went back to her original sources as their sources.

Jordan Maxwell and Acharya S. do not present artifacts. They spin a story, and at this point as we do in the South regarding telling a fairy tale, they should start their presentations with,

"You aint gonna believe this sh*t......"

edit to add (Maxwell's)

[Unified Serenity]

Richard Carrier cannot be viewed as a Christian with an axe to grind. He does not support Christianity, and yet, he has a lot to say about Maxwell and others who teach the Christian myth ideas espoused in Zeitgeist. This video is quite telling:

7lI-dwDMhtc

I am currently on a very large atheist site that doesn't buy the whole astrotheology debunking Christianity as a myth belief system. This guy wrote a very good article which I will paste a few of his thoughts, and encourage you to go to the page and also read the dialogue he has with the fanclub of Acharya s. and by extension Jordan Maxwell because they are pretty much saying the same things on this debunking of where Judaism and Christianity really come from:

Problems with Acharya S: A Brief Review

http://www.rationalresponders.com/sites/www.rationalresponders.com/files/pictures/picture-33.jpg
Submitted by Rook_Hawkins on October 21, 2007


Over the past few weeks I have been getting an increase if fanboys (literally) of Acharya S, who pour in from who knows where (perhaps the Raves and Shindigs are letting out earlier then usual?). Perhaps they mean well, but this is really what the Jesus Mythicist Campaign was meant to expose - the poor and sloppy scholarship of some of the mythicist defenders out there. Among those who would discredit the movement, I feel Acharaya S is a valid candidate who has been among other things sloppy.



Worse yet, many of the fans that have come to my website seem to have no rudimentary knowledge of antiquity, nor do they seem to have any grasp of the methodologies employed by modern scholars and historians who have to face a rigid peer review before they publish. When two of her fans attempted to go head to head with me in my forum, I confronted them are some of their very glaring historical inadequacies. Here is a brief list of some of these errors:
1. Comparing Jesus to Krishna/Buddha
2. Claiming the Moses/Jesus stories are Midrash based on the Bhagavad Gita
3. Claiming that both Julius Caesar and Plato were both said to be born of virgins and sons of God
4. Claiming ALL Caesars were deified






First, before one can even claim that there were influences on early Christians/Jews by the Bhagavad Gita or the works of Buddha (life of Buddha?), several things must be established:
1.) Settlements. What evidence does one have of Jewish settlements in India? What archaeological finds have been presented for this? Example: We have inscriptions (on tomb stones and buildings) and dedications in Alexandria, Rome, Syria, and Cyrenaica of Jewish neighborhoods and businesses, synagogues and temples. Alexandria has the highest concentration of evidence of Jewish life, however outside the Ancient Near East, we have found settlements in Italy and Greece and that is really it. Please consult J.M.G. Barclay's, Jew's in the Mediterranean Diaspora: From Alexander to Trajan (1996).
2.) Holy Book Location. One must show evidence at one of these other Jewish locations, especially Alexandria where papyrus was found and made in great numbers (hence why we have so many manuscripts from Egypt), where the Gita has been found.
3.) Assimilation and Socio-Cultural Accommodation. One must present some level of sociological assimilation or acculturalization where the Jews have lost some of their cultural distinctiveness to the Hindu religion, or the following of Hindu religious practices, such that we see with Orpheus and Orphic traditions (i.e. Poems written in Hebrew to Orpheus, or mosaics in Jewish synagogues of Orpheus) - we should see poems or literature written of Krishna in Hebrew, or some sort of art or graffiti in Jewish living areas dedicated to Krishna. The opposite should also be seen as well: Those who follow Hinduism should have held in some regard the Jewish religion in some areas (where these Jewish Settlements could be found in India) much like the Greco-Roman populace produced many "god-fearers" who although did not become circumcised would have certainly respected (and even tithed) to Yahweh.
4.) Holy Book Access. Not only must the Gita be found in a location near or in a Jewish neighborhood or settlement, but evidence of earlier usage of the Gita before the Gospels, or Paul, where Jews have been accustomed to seeing it, or would have at least had knowledge of it.
5.) Holy Book in the Vernacular. Similarity in languages must be established. Is there evidence that Jews even would understand the Gita if they read it, or would have been in a position to transliterate the language into Hebrew or Greek in a manner which would allow one to show a common link between the Gita and the Gospels in the original languages (not the English summarizations)? Do such translations of the Gita in Greek or Hebrew even exist?
If these five venues can be established, there certainly would be sufficient reason to accept that Krishna and Hinduism would have had some sort of influence on the Jewish culture, to the point where one might suggest acutely that Christ would have been recycled trope from Hinduism. The same five must-haves would also have to be established for Buddha as well. (By the way, all five of these can be established for Orphism, and the traditions of Orpheus.)
Yet this is not what we have. In fact, we have the converse of what we would need to adequately establish a base claim that the tropes of Jesus were taken from Hinduism and Buddhism. Of the many non-biblical Jewish writers we know of, none discuss or refer to any Hindu god or Buddha, nor do they refer to dealings with Hindus or Buddhists, or having ever read the Gita. We have a very loud argument from silence on the part of Acharya's claim here, and this position that is being parroted by the fanboys on the message boards do not help her case.
What of references in non-Jewish sources are also non-extant. Can it be established that Greek city-states or the Roman Republic/Empire had access to these documents and myths? This must also be looked at and considered, and clearly it hasn't.
That isn't to say that there aren't some similarities between Buddha, Krishna and Jesus (Buddha was not a God, hero, king or queen, although Acharya claims so on her site. Nor would Buddha have been called "anointed" or "wetted," as she claims - such concepts were entirely Jewish in nature) but the similarities are themes shared by a wide variety of cultures having absolutely not connection with each other. The theme of life over death for example is one of these. So is the theme of dualism, the battle between light and dark - however in Judaism it is clear such trends developed from the Greeks. Clearly, one cannot be so careless as to assume that Krishna and Buddha influenced the development of Jesus Christ.




For a historian, comparative religion is a tricky thing. It's very cool to see how different societies have common tropes and themes, but that doesn't imply that these themes CAME from each other - at least not all the time. (And not without loads of data and evidence!) It is next to impossible most of the time to establish the connection many conmythispiracists (kon-myth-a-spiricists: my new title for mythicists who resort to this sort of rubbish) wish to establish. There are better ways, and certainly better explanations, for such tropes to exist in the New Testament. You only need one strong case of recycled tropes to show the Jesus of the Gospels isn't historical. And you only need one strong case of recycled tropes to show that those earlier tropes came from other Near Eastern cultures in antiquity. To go to the extremes of Acharya is not only pushing buttons, but begging for scholarship to look at one as amateurish.
Certainly, Acharya has been sloppy in her research, and her claims seem more like sensationalism than actual scholarship. Certainly she sells books, and that is good. I'm glad she is doing well for herself. We should all be so lucky. But, I will not, nor will I let others, promote such incredulous tripe as what we have seen above. There is certainly reason to be skeptical and even cautious about reading Acharya's work. It should be read carefully, with a grain of salt, and it should always be remembered that such claims need to be researched beyond her books. Certainly she misses some very powerful claims in need of citation, and even more does she need to spend more time reading the works of other historians and scholars in the field.
These are serious mistakes, and they need to be corrected.
For further reading: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/graves.html


He raises the pertinent points regarding scholarship, and how proper research is done and cited.

Read the whole article. (http://www.rationalresponders.com/problems_with_acharya_s_a_brief_review)

[jagman]

My gut always told me Jordan was a hack & a conman but that's just my opinion. I have to confess, I absolutely love a good story being spun by
a master like Bob Dean or Jim Mars. Jordan's got to make a living somehow. So I am not knocking him for telling his stories or ie (theories)
I just dont find him that entertaining. I know some of you will take severe umbridge with my above statements about Jordan being a hack and a
conman but guess what? That is my opinion and I'm entitled to it

[gripreaper]

They spin a story, and at this point as we do in the South regarding telling a fairy tale, they should start their presentations with, "You aint gonna believe this sh*t......"

LOL. Maybe if we qualified all our statement with this phrase, they would be more palatable! Funny thing is, usually the stories in the south that are qualified with this statement are true!

[Unified Serenity]

This guy is like your favorite comparative religion professor. He's written a book, but he put together some overviews of the chapters. For those who like a straight forward presentation of history without all the glitz of eye candy, mood music, and such, then these are for you. Great video about the rebirth of astrotheology:


BOCk2gCXoOQ

4cc76vwqp4s

LmA2N2AOj1s

2_t2VmCh11Y

[Unified Serenity]

So, you like Maxwell's expressing his views on how Jesus being the lamb of God is really going back to the Dali Llama! Yes, folks, this is classic Jordan Maxwell linguistic gymnastics:

NKwQGPIWgMg

[Unified Serenity]

Oh yes, now let's find out where Maxwell says the church comes from, this is the most amazing linguistic twisting :

6t9OBErbsHs

[Unified Serenity]

Oh, maybe it's Jordan's explaining how the myth of Noah's flood really came about that has you proving the bible is a lie and a myth:

-HzkvreBlyw

[Unified Serenity]

Well, now we can find out how Crisco is linked to the concept of the word "Lord", this is classic Maxwell:

-qA5oK9ZuPU

[heyokah]

Serenity, are you that desperate to make your point ....... Or is it to keep this thread alive.......?

[Unified Serenity]

Well, actually Heyokah, since so many attacked my even asking the question, and have not dealt with the actual initial video, I figured small topic issues that can be handled in less than five to ten minutes would help others. I also find it pretty disingenuous for you to ask me such a question to imply I have some agenda. I bring up a topic to explore a topic. When it's apparent that straw man arguments, attempts to derail the topic by attacking the messenger are plain for all to see, then maybe it's just possible to actually investigate the claims. Have you watched any of the videos I have posted? If you have then do you agree to the conclusions Maxwell draws and agree to his methods of coming to those conclusions? Thus, do you believe the premise he makes on how the church is basically a made up myth and the truth is all about astrotheology and our answers are in the stars? This of course despite the fact that the Egyptians did not use the zodiac at all until the Hellenists influenced them.

Your post though does have the apparent tone of yet again questioning my character and motives. I'd really love to hear how you deal with Maxwell's creative linguistics.

[heyokah]

Yes Serenity, I saw this video over a year ago and "jumped through" it again when you posted it.


U.S.: I also find it pretty disingenuous for you to ask me such a question to imply I have some agenda.
"Attack is the best form of defense. " ??

I'm not going to argue with you over this, as English is not my mother tongue. Besides there are more important things in life....


Bill Ryan said it so well




-------

The problem is with the video-maker's (or the debunker's) intention. Here's what I mean:

Unified Serenity, I genuinely very much appreciate your passion, and integrity, and your let's-face-the-truth-whatever-it-might-be attitude.

But -- supposing I had an agenda to discredit you, or smear you, or somehow cause the readers here to be much more likely to ignore the value you add.

What I could easily do -- if I wanted to! -- is sift through your 2,700 posts, find some juicy out-of-context extracts, highlight the chosen ones, and find apparent contradictions, times when you had expressed yourself a little impulsively, or simply when you had something quite wrong (maybe quite some time ago).

Listing those, and with some clever presentation, I bet I could make you look like anything I wanted to. I could make you look like a troll, or a poor researcher, or simply stupid.

Or if I was a fan of your work, I could go the other way and make you look brilliant and incisive. This is the problem.

I know Jordan Maxwell personally, and in 2010 spent six straight weeks with him 24/7 (on his visit to Europe). I know he has some things wrong. I know he has misinterpretations of some of the linguistics behind certain terms, etc etc, and that he over-stresses those. I've talked with him about that.

But he's genuine, beaten-up, brave, wounded, exhausted, persistent, and has been an imperfect, heroic champion of almost all of the the causes we all stand for. See the tremendous video interview which Kerry did of him in Sept 2009 (http://projectcamelot.org/jordan_maxwell.html) -- one of her very, very best -- at the end of which Jordan was in tears, and after which (off-camera) Kerry simply could not speak.

Here is a man who devoted his life to a mission, and believed he had failed. These are the real issues. Not the details.

Maybe you should take up some hobby.
Fishing perhaps.

Love and Peace,
heyokah

[NewParadigmGuy]

Somewhat off topic, but hopefully relevant.. One (Late) Professor Smiley of Cornell thinks Christ is Oil! I think a lot of this stuff is the old school text, which I happen to fully endorse.. no internet to cloud the mind... just good old fashion research...

Sorry I can't copy and paste:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/52358943/PROOF-CHRIST-WAS-REALLY-KUNDALINI

I don't want to derail this wonderful thread, but the idea that Christ is an oil which circulates in the body fascinates me. Does anyone know if there is a thread on this forum which explores this idea?

[Unified Serenity]

WARNING: IF YOU ARE NOT A TRUTH SEEKER READ NO FURTHER. I MAY SAY SOMETHING THAT CAUSES YOU TO QUESTION YOUR BELIEFS

Heyokah,

I am more than happy to come under anyone's scrutiny when I write an article or if I were to do a presentation. Be my guest. Was what Bill wrote supposed to intimidate me or shame me for caring to ask questions regarding the information Maxwell puts out that quite frankly some have had effect their families, spiritual paths, and outlook on the future? Take up a hobby? Take up a hobby is again, an insult trying to insinuate I am some nut job who needs to get a life, or at least stop interfering in your life. If you don't like my views or posts, don't click on them. It's really quite easy to ignore me if my views cause you so much discomfort. I have yet to see anyone who supports what Maxwell teaches actually deal with the topic of the thread.

The first emotional reactions were "How can you do this!" or "How dare you attack Maxwell"! Then the reactions were to switch from being aghast anyone would dare examine the facts and truths of Maxwell, to focusing on the guy who did the video. The information suddenly was not even worthy to be looked at because he had a right wing Christian wacko agenda! Then, it was back to attacking anyone for daring to come onto Bill's forum, "his house" and bash a friend of Bill's.

So, I gathered more data, I warned you all that when I start digging I do not stop until I have unearthed as much as possible, and while you, Heyokah might not be interested in the information, I imagine hearing Maxwell exposed for the linguistic subterfuge and idiocy that he uses by an Atheist debunker no less, no wait, TWO atheist debunkers might be of interest to others. Now, I have some more information just posted for the viewing and research pleasure of members who do actually care about the truth. So, Crisco Oil is Lard and that's where the word Lord comes from? The Ancient Egyptians Nile flooding and having some supposed Argha-Noa party was where the Ark of Noah comes from? There is no Argh-Noa story, and is Maxwell actually saying the the English word Ark was somehow magically in the minds of the bible writers thousands of years ago?

I want you all to examine your beliefs. You seem to love to think how stupid Christians are. [edit: How they only read the bible and listen to preachers and parrot back stupid traditions without investigating other data.] How uneducated and misguided they are and how they refuse to wake up to the truths shared by the likes of Jordan Maxwell whose teachings Zeitgeist used as a template for their movie, and yet when I lay evidence before you, you either ignore it, ridicule it or question my motives. [edit: how are you any different than the very people (Christians) whom so many of you believe are deluded ignoramuses who follow a fake system and don't even know it because they buy the story without investigating it. How are you any different when you can't deal with some ridiculous things Maxwell teaches?] How much of a truth seeker are you or am I scaring the sh*t out of you? How's it feel to actually be in the place of defending your beliefs that I think if they are based on Jordan Maxwell's ideas do not hold up to scrutiny.

I work very hard to dig into truth. To find out as much as I can before moving onward. I think I have pretty much found out Jordan Maxwell's take on the roots of Judea-Christian beliefs is completely made up or comes from such twisted linguistics that it's not worth examining. The last video I watched has me now interested in the whole Constantine being a pagan worshiper and how that all got started. I don't think Constantine was a devout Christian, but a good politician, but now, I have to start digging there. I do believe in symbolism and hidden stuff, but I will certainly be very careful with anything linked in any way to Maxwell.

Here is that video. This guy is dry and you want him to hurry up, but he actually does have a point and will get there. I can put up with irritating people if they have something to share. But then again, I actually want to learn the truth:

E2lwmp6RFOc

[Unified Serenity]

Somewhat off topic, but hopefully relevant.. One (Late) Professor Smiley of Cornell thinks Christ is Oil! I think a lot of this stuff is the old school text, which I happen to fully endorse.. no internet to cloud the mind... just good old fashion research...

Sorry I can't copy and paste:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/52358943/PROOF-CHRIST-WAS-REALLY-KUNDALINI

I don't want to derail this wonderful thread, but the idea that Christ is an oil which circulates in the body fascinates me. Does anyone know if there is a thread on this forum which explores this idea?

Messiah is where the Greek word Christos comes from which means "Anointed one". And though there is no evidence of Jesus being anointed say as King David was, the idea is the title of Messiah means the Anointed of God, promised to redeem the world. I do find it very interesting that the sacred oil of the JEWISH temple is the same word we have for American Indian Holy man/woman - Shamman.

H8081
שׁמן
shemen
sheh'-men
From H8080; grease, especially liquid (as from the olive, often perfumed); figuratively richness: - anointing, X fat (things), X fruitful, oil ([-ed]), ointment, olive, + pine.

edit to add:

H4899
משׁיח
mâshı̂yach
maw-shee'-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: - anointed, Messiah.


G5547
Χριστός
Christos
khris-tos'
From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

[NewParadigmGuy]

Messiah is where the Greek word Christos comes from which means "Anointed one". And though there is no evidence of Jesus being anointed say as King David was, the idea is the title of Messiah means the Anointed of God, promised to redeem the world. I do find it very interesting that the sacred oil of the JEWISH temple is the same word we have for American Indian Holy man/woman - Shamman.

H8081
שׁמן
shemen
sheh'-men
From H8080; grease, especially liquid (as from the olive, often perfumed); figuratively richness: - anointing, X fat (things), X fruitful, oil ([-ed]), ointment, olive, + pine.

edit to add:

H4899
משׁיח
mâshı̂yach
maw-shee'-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: - anointed, Messiah.


G5547
Χριστός
Christos
khris-tos'
From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

I am less interested in any oil that is rubbed on or otherwise applied to someone. Rather, I want to explore the idea of an oil that is produced within the body and needs to be properly circulated within the body (through some concerted effort) to achieve Christ consciousness.

I do think this is off the topic of the present thread, however, and I was wondering if another preexisting thread explores that idea...

[heyokah]

Messiah is where the Greek word Christos comes from which means "Anointed one". And though there is no evidence of Jesus being anointed say as King David was, the idea is the title of Messiah means the Anointed of God, promised to redeem the world. I do find it very interesting that the sacred oil of the JEWISH temple is the same word we have for American Indian Holy man/woman - Shamman.

H8081
שׁמן
shemen
sheh'-men
From H8080; grease, especially liquid (as from the olive, often perfumed); figuratively richness: - anointing, X fat (things), X fruitful, oil ([-ed]), ointment, olive, + pine.

edit to add:

H4899
משׁיח
mâshı̂yach
maw-shee'-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: - anointed, Messiah.


G5547
Χριστός
Christos
khris-tos'
From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

I am less interested in any oil that is rubbed on or otherwise applied to someone. Rather, I want to explore the idea of an oil that is produced within the body and needs to be properly circulated within the body (through some concerted effort) to achieve Christ consciousness.

I do think this is off the topic of the present thread, however, and I was wondering if another preexisting thread explores that idea...

Try this thread. Very interesting.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47289-The-Silent-Trip-Two-Selves-and-Induced-Religious-Experiences

[Unified Serenity]

Messiah is where the Greek word Christos comes from which means "Anointed one". And though there is no evidence of Jesus being anointed say as King David was, the idea is the title of Messiah means the Anointed of God, promised to redeem the world. I do find it very interesting that the sacred oil of the JEWISH temple is the same word we have for American Indian Holy man/woman - Shamman.

H8081
שׁמן
shemen
sheh'-men
From H8080; grease, especially liquid (as from the olive, often perfumed); figuratively richness: - anointing, X fat (things), X fruitful, oil ([-ed]), ointment, olive, + pine.

edit to add:

H4899
משׁיח
mâshı̂yach
maw-shee'-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: - anointed, Messiah.


G5547
Χριστός
Christos
khris-tos'
From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

I am less interested in any oil that is rubbed on or otherwise applied to someone. Rather, I want to explore the idea of an oil that is produced within the body and needs to be properly circulated within the body (through some concerted effort) to achieve Christ consciousness.

I do think this is off the topic of the present thread, however, and I was wondering if another preexisting thread explores that idea...

I believe you want to do a search on the pineal gland and the golden oil talked about in those threads.

[GCS1103]

WARNING: IF YOU ARE NOT A TRUTH SEEKER READ NO FURTHER. I MAY SAY SOMETHING THAT CAUSES YOU TO QUESTION YOUR BELIEFS

Heyokah,

I am more than happy to come under anyone's scrutiny when I write an article or if I were to do a presentation. Be my guest. Was what Bill wrote supposed to intimidate me or shame me for caring to ask questions regarding the information Maxwell puts out that quite frankly some have had effect their families, spiritual paths, and outlook on the future? Take up a hobby? Take up a hobby is again, an insult trying to insinuate I am some nut job who needs to get a life, or at least stop interfering in your life. If you don't like my views or posts, don't click on them. It's really quite easy to ignore me if my views cause you so much discomfort. I have yet to see anyone who supports what Maxwell teaches actually deal with the topic of the thread.

The first emotional reactions were "How can you do this!" or "How dare you attack Maxwell"! Then the reactions were to switch from being aghast anyone would dare examine the facts and truths of Maxwell, to focusing on the guy who did the video. The information suddenly was not even worthy to be looked at because he had a right wing Christian wacko agenda! Then, it was back to attacking anyone for daring to come onto Bill's forum, "his house" and bash a friend of Bill's.

So, I gathered more data, I warned you all that when I start digging I do not stop until I have unearthed as much as possible, and while you, Heyokah might not be interested in the information, I imagine hearing Maxwell exposed for the linguistic subterfuge and idiocy that he uses by an Atheist debunker no less, no wait, TWO atheist debunkers might be of interest to others. Now, I have some more information just posted for the viewing and research pleasure of members who do actually care about the truth. So, Crisco Oil is Lard and that's where the word Lord comes from? The Ancient Egyptians Nile flooding and having some supposed Argha-Noa party was where the Ark of Noah comes from? There is no Argh-Noa story, and is Maxwell actually saying the the English word Ark was somehow magically in the minds of the bible writers thousands of years ago?

I want you all to examine your beliefs. You seem to love to think how stupid Christians are. How uneducated and misguided they are and how they refuse to wake up to the truths shared by the likes of Jordan Maxwell whose teachings Zeitgeist used as a template for their movie, and yet when I lay evidence before you, you either ignore it, ridicule it or question my motives. How much of a truth seeker are you or am I scaring the sh*t out of you? How's it feel to actually be in the place of defending your beliefs that I think if they are based on Jordan Maxwell's ideas do not hold up to scrutiny.

I work very hard to dig into truth. To find our as much as I can before moving onward. I think I have pretty much found out Jordan Maxwell's take on the roots of Judea-Christian beliefs is completely made up or comes from such twisted linguistics that it's not worth examining. The last video I watched has me now interested in the whole Constantine being a pagan worshiper and how that all got started. I don't think Constantine was a devout Christian, but a good politician, but now, I have to start digging there. I do believe in symbolism and hidden stuff, but I will certainly be very careful with anything linked in any way to Maxwell.

Here is that video. This guy is dry and you want him to hurry up, but he actually does have a point and will get there. I can put up with irritating people if they have something to share. But then again, I actually want to learn the truth:

E2lwmp6RFOcUnified Serenity-

As Jackovesk has said before, you have the guts to start a thread and back it up with research and fact. It's easy for someone to sit at their computer and post a comment, just for the sake of arguing because they don't like your premise. Now, if they post a comment and back it up with real facts that they spent the time to research, then they have a legitimate reason to dispute your conclusions. When someone starts attacking you personally or thinks they're being funny, at your expense, their credibility is lost.

If anyone here attended the Awake and Aware conference last year, you would have witnessed quite a "confrontation" between some of the speakers- all of which were seated on the stage for a question and answer period with the audience. Bill Ryan, Kerry Cassidy, Rich Dolan, Richard Hoagland, Bob Dean and the list goes on and on. There were some heated exchanges between some of the speakers, who simply don't agree with the premises of some of the other speakers. So much so, that the audience members had to stand up and say "this is uncomfortable for us." But not once, in all the frustration that was very evident, did anyone on stage personally attack another speaker. There was no sarcasm, snide remarks, nasty personal comments, etc. Maybe we can learn from their good manners, when we disagree with one another.

[Fred Steeves]

Hey there US, most of us are here because we are compelled to ask the tough questions, so I don't think that's really an issue. Speaking solely for myself though, when I hear "debunked" my eyes glaze over. Everything has been debunked, right down to the debunkers being debunked.


http://davidickedebunked.com/

http://conspiracydebunked.com/new-world-order-conspiracy-debunked/

http://www.debunking911.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5yj-WVqQC0

http://pragcap.com/debunking-ron-pauls-talking-points

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1AiAqiOfk

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/DebunkingChristians/Contents.htm

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/national_world/2010/04/11/area-51-theories-debunked.html

http://socyberty.com/paranormal/the-philadelphia-experiment-debunked/

http://www.skepdic.com/ghosts.html

http://www.livescience.com/10594-alternative-therapies-debunked-denounced-2009.html

http://www.livescience.com/10594-alternative-therapies-debunked-denounced-2009.html

Maybe you wouldn't be facing so much headwind, if you started out by having a conversation about Theosaphy and things related. Jordan Maxwell's material would naturally be a part of that, and it wouldn't come off as a personal attack on someone that many respect, myself included.

It's not a politically correct thing, it's a respect thing. We can have very intelligent conversations, even when the views of the participents vary greatly. But seriously US, tell me how a conversation between you and I would go for instance, if I started a thread titled: "Khaleesi Debunked"?

I wouldn't anticipate a warm response.:p

Cheers,
Fred

[Unified Serenity]

Fred, I have already dealt with the title of this thread. Why must you even bring it up and try to take me to task for how I started this thread. It's water under the bridge as they say. Now, would you like to deal with Maxwell? He is the foundation for Zeitgeist, and Acharya S. says the same astrotheological junk Maxwell does, but she is smart enough to not get into stupid linguistic games. Fred, why not deal with what I have written in the thread as proving my points? That would be so refreshing.

edit to add:

This thread is about Jordan Maxwell, his honesty, his methods and teachings. I believe I have proven without a shadow of a doubt how truly awful his methods are. His teachings don't hold up under any sense logically once you examine how he puts his thoughts and theories together. He tries to prove a point about the foundations of Judaism and Christianity, and he has no problem telling those who believe in said religions to "Get a life" with the venom dripping from his lips like the poison fangs of a cobra. He doesn't back up what he says, he is not easy to get a hold of, and quite frankly, at this point I would love to debate him.

[GCS1103]

Hey there US, most of us are here because we are compelled to ask the tough questions, so I don't think that's really an issue. Speaking solely for myself though, when I hear "debunked" my eyes glaze over. Everything has been debunked, right down to the debunkers being debunked.


http://davidickedebunked.com/

http://conspiracydebunked.com/new-world-order-conspiracy-debunked/

http://www.debunking911.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5yj-WVqQC0

http://pragcap.com/debunking-ron-pauls-talking-points

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1AiAqiOfk

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/DebunkingChristians/Contents.htm

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/national_world/2010/04/11/area-51-theories-debunked.html

http://socyberty.com/paranormal/the-philadelphia-experiment-debunked/

http://www.skepdic.com/ghosts.html

http://www.livescience.com/10594-alternative-therapies-debunked-denounced-2009.html

http://www.livescience.com/10594-alternative-therapies-debunked-denounced-2009.html

Maybe you wouldn't be facing so much headwind, if you started out by having a conversation about Theosaphy and things related. Jordan Maxwell's material would naturally be a part of that, and it wouldn't come off as a personal attack on someone that many respect, myself included.

It's not a politically correct thing, it's a respect thing. We can have very intelligent conversations, even when the views of the participents vary greatly. But seriously US, tell me how a conversation between you and I would go for instance, if I started a thread titled: "Khaleesi Debunked"?

I wouldn't anticipate a warm response.:p

Cheers,
Fred

Good point, Fred. Perhaps a different title would have been better. As to "Khaleesi Debunked", I understand what you're saying; however, Khaleesi is not out there on Youtube, the internet, speaking at conferences, doing interviews. If she was, then she would be held to a standard of high responsibility that all public figures/semi public figures should be held to, when they have a large audience and are espousing their views.

If we're going to be "politically correct" then that must apply to all threads posted. I can think of a few that got me very upset. Maybe I should start a thread about "Political Correctness in Avalon Thread Titles".;) I do get what you're saying, though.

[gripreaper]

He tries to prove a point about the foundations of Judaism and Christianity, and he has no problem telling those who believe in said religions to "Get a life" with the venom dripping from his lips like the poison fangs of a cobra. He doesn't back up what he says, he is not easy to get a hold of, and quite frankly, at this point I would love to debate him.

If you want to enter into a debate between the gnostic astrotheological view of the origins of man and his development into religions, versus messianic christianity, you would be better off looking into Santos Bonacci, or Michael Tsarion. These two scholars are younger and better researched and would probably be more willing to debate you. You can call into Bonacci's radio show on AFR any time you want. Jordan Maxwell did not have an academic background and is now 71 years old, tired and not interested in taking on the debate.

You realize the debate you are attempting to engage, is underscored to the very core of our existence and would need to back engineer our origins and our development from the very beginning, including each step of the way? I'm not prepared to take that on, for I'm sure you would be a formidable opponent, and this discourse would take years and thousands of hours in research.

So, Maxwell got a little cocky while he was in his heyday and said some stuff which is bogus, and White called him out on it, and Jordan chose not to debate him or defend it or apologize. Gee, I wonder why. Acharya S. does her homework more thoroughly, and due to the nature of her research, it's no wonder the Messianics are going after her.

Put the fundamentalist messianic christians and the gnostic astrotheologians all alone in a room for 24 hours, and when you reopen the door, you're likely to find both of them dead or at least all their eyes clawed out. It's not a debate which I would consider it would go to well.

So far the idea that the fundamentalist christian messianic viewpoint is correct and the gnostic astrotheological viewpoint is wrong, does not bear out completely. The jury is still out and may always be out, due to the fact that our earliest historical documents get scarcer and scarcer the further back we go. Once you leave the Egyptian epoch and look for the history previous to that, it's tough.

[Unified Serenity]

Grip, I am wondering if you have actually watched the videos I have posted. Acharya S. does not do her research more thoroughly. She cherry picks fringe "historians" and fudges citing her works. I guess maybe it's time to do a thread regarding the facts about Acharya S.' research. She apparently does not know that ancient Egypt did not use the zodiac at all, that they did not use the progression of the houses and thus her going from age of Pisces into the age of Aquarius doesn't work either. It wasn't until the Egyptians were exposed to Hellenistic views of astrology that the idea of zodiac came into their thoughts.

I think it might be time to actually look into the foundations from which they launch their theories. I like to look at all sides of a topic. There is also a topic of the Gospel in the stars, and it's a very good presentation.

40vfN6LWy3s

I might should begin an astrology / Zodiak thread now. Here is an excellent study:

http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/

[gripreaper]

Grip, I am wondering if you have actually watched the videos I have posted. Acharya S. does not do her research more thoroughly. She cherry picks fringe "historians" and fudges citing her works. I guess maybe it's time to do a thread regarding the facts about Acharya S.' research. She apparently does not know that ancient Egypt did not use the zodiac at all, that they did not use the progression of the houses and thus her going from age of Pisces into the age of Aquarius doesn't work either. It wasn't until the Egyptians were exposed to Hellenistic views of astrology that the idea of zodiac came into their thoughts.

I went to Egypt in 2008 and saw the zodiac at Dendara with my own eyes. I have listened to Whites critique of Maxwell, although it's been a year or two since. I've listened to several of Acharya S. interviews in years past and have done some of the research.

While in Egypt, I took the river cruise and stopped at each of the temples along the Nile. I stood in the Kings Chamber of the great pyramid at Giza. I've done "some" research into the origins of mankind and the development of religion, although I am not an academic or a scholar. I've read Joseph Farrell's work, Michael Tsarion, Santos Bonacci, and Graham Hancock and I've looked into the subject enough at this point to where I am of the gnostic astrotheological camp and reject messianic christianity.

I think you are probably aware of that. Even though I am following this thread, I don't have the wherewithal or the inclination to enter into a debate. I'm open to new information which could expand my viewpoint, or change it.

[Mad Hatter]

Mad Hatter dons his sarcasm cap...

Ah yes the 'Oxford Template' that gave us global warming, er make that climate change, um on second thoughts would you like some weather with that??? All proudly held up as peer reviewed mark you...

While empirical evidence shows 10 years of no change in temperature despite rising CO2 levels....

As those who can Pile Higher & Deeper might put it Loop me in to High level Bandwidth Best of breed who Bring to the table Mission-critical Low-hanging fruit facilitating the Next steps Proactive Synergy Circle back Outside the box to Incentivize Elevator pitch Value-add Learnings with Actionable items;

This is not what the funding seeks....

/sarcasm and moving right along,

US despite your misgivings, do you at least accept that JM is, at the very least, a useful tool for assisting those new to the area of occult symbology and etymology who are just arriving at the event horizon of the ‘Truth’ rabbit hole?

You don’t strike me as the type to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak, so if not why not?

Obviously others have goaded you to the point of 'Faceplant' type posts but since you seemingly hold in high regard the peer review process (obviously something I have problems with) you should know that such tactics are not 'de rigueur' for the level of discourse you wish or for that matter normally espoused by those adopting such methodologies.

That said, I note your pointing to evidence that attempts to falsify certain points of view because of your claim that that evidence is based on misrepresenting earlier evidence recorded in Hebrew.

Fair enough. However I am wondering if you consider that as case closed. I say this because the same process can be used to falsify your position as well so wondered if you had factored that into your view.

IIRC on a column in one of the temples in Egypt, etched into granite at a such a depth we cannot duplicate the process with the best laser technology available to us today is what is colloquially known as the 'Flower of Life' !!!

Astrotheological maybe but I'm yet to find any reference to such in any of the Abrahamic desert religions.

This obviously begs questions such as who put it there? How much more advanced where they than we are now?

The clincher for the line of argument you used in that example, based entirely on EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE would have to be...

What language did they speak some thousands of years before Hebrew arrived on the scene?

QED, no?

Food for thought...

[GCS1103]

Mad Hatter- How many hats do you have? (I really like them all)

[Unified Serenity]

The issues of Egypt with regard to ancient astrology do not seem to hold true per Egyptologyst who speak of a completely different system to mark the heavens than what we commonly call astrology today. The example Acharya S portrays of the zodiac in her works is from after the Hellenistic period which is much later than the times she is describing. As for oddities in the ancient world and stone carving and what appear to be machine or laser technology or something more advanced than chisel and hammer don't have anything to do with the astrotheology aspects.

I have already stated what I believe is going on either knowingly or unknowingly with Maxwell. He "exposes" some aspects of the elites, trashes the church and does not bother to connect the dots of the elites working in the church and he is thus just throwing the whole church out as garbage and a myth. The Church did not go down the road of corruption until approximately sometimes between 300 and 400 a.d. which is evident because of the problems of Christians not doing what the church started to try to do which was incorporate pagan practices into it.

I have zero problems with whatever spiritual path someone wants to pursue, but don't say the bible is all fake because of Argha - Noa, Sol Om on - God is dog spelled backwards - Crisco is Lard and that's were we get Lord from- Abraham is the Ram of astrology and his name was not Abraham but Abram or Ab ram - that the Dali Llama is the Lamb of God and is proof of Buddhism using that symbology before Christianity when that sect of Buddism did not exist until after Christianity was well established... the list goes on and on. I think it's highly suspicious that the man who loves theosophy and it's creator Blavatsky changes his name to a derivative of the second in her trinity and he agrees with her teachings that Lucifer is the true God and light bringer and then turns around exposing the elites in the governmental system who we know worship Lucifer and are adherents to Free Masonry, worship the owl at Bohemian grove, love to use the sign of Lucifer.

How can I believe anything but that JM is doing anything but pseudo waking people up to only help move them over into the very system via a new age spiritual path dedicated to the very same goals as the NWO? I truly believe theosophy and astrotheology is the coming New World Order system religion where all religions are all united working as one under a political as well as religious leader. How is learning from Maxwell only to discover these things about him going to help them? I am frustrated because the more I have dug, the worse it has gotten. I agree there is most definitely some important symbolism to be aware of, but if one is a newly awakened person and is not prepared, they could be in deep kimshi before they even realize how off the mark they are. I am more than stunned how after everything I have shared about what he is teaching that so few Avalonians have anything to say. My logical conclusion is you all believe this stuff too, you have no critical thinking of Maxwell combining modern English with ancient words and that somehow it all explains away the bible. Go look up Set, Isis, Om, Meri, Argha-Noa...... nothing he says pans out. I am highly disappointed that someone I once respected really is not held to a higher standard by the community I love and respect. I think I have said enough on it, it is quite apparent to me that you all don't give a flying flip what people come here and say. It seems any line can be thrown out and people are going to jump on that flaming piece of crap and ride it until it splats into reality called the ground. I'm sure there are still those who think Drake, Brockbrader or Charles were just trying to wake people up.

There was a saying I learned, "with friends like that who needs enemies".

Dissappointed doesn't describe how I feel right now.

as for


Fair enough. However I am wondering if you consider that as case closed. I say this because the same process can be used to falsify your position as well so wondered if you had factored that into your view.

You can certainly put out absolute false information if you want to. I stick with ancient texts. When I speak of peer reviewed I am speaking of a very factual study of when events were known to have happened, actual documents that exist. Acharya S now says that it's the very fact she has no proof that proves she is correct. It's all the churches fault that is no proof to back up her theories which are the exact same ones of Jordan Maxwell. If an Egyptology expert says Isis was not her name, and thus Maxwell's saying Gen Isis comes from the Egyptian system despite that is again and ENGLISH word as there is no Hebrew word Genesis, it's the book called "Bere****", but that would not work in Maxwell's world, then are you going to call that expert an idiot or Maxwell?

Krisha experts laugh at Maxwell's ideas of the life of Krisha. None of them believe Krishna's mother was a virgin! Apparently according to them, and they believe in him, Krisha's mother had seven children before she gave birth to Krisha so how is she a virgin? But, don't let someone who has dedicated their career and life to the study of Krisha confuse you, if Maxwell says Krishna was born of a virgin it must be so. Same goes for any of the other deities. Experts in the field completely disagree. Why would you want to encourage anyone to study Maxwell? Tell me, who would you say is a better person? I like Klaus Donna a lot. I can see the artifacts, and examine them in the pictures. He doesn't make wild claims, but shares where they were found, what age they are and any interesting properties. He isn't slamming Christianity with a bunch of weird claims. I am open to hear any information and have studied the Nazarenes, Essenes, Gnostics, esoteric texts and find information interesting. Let me ask you, would you believe Drake if he got on the radio proclaiming some big event happening in a week? Would you move out of town if he said a disaster was coming in YOUR town and you needed to get out NOW? Would you tell all your friends right now to pull up the Drake interviews and watch them knowing all the misinformation he gave? I wouldn't and therefore I'd never recommend reading anything by Maxwell. Would you read the Onion and take it seriously or GLP? You can only make so many ridiculous statements before you are not trustworthy anymore.

Peter Joseph of Zeitgeist now tries to act like he has no idea or ever heard about Theosophy before he did Zeitgeist. He had to pull parts from Zeitgeist out and redo all the sources because they showed just how inane the ideas were. If someone has the facts then they don't need to get rid of all the source work and pretend they never heard of Blavatsky! He said that the whole move of Zeitgeist was a walk through of Jordan Maxwell's work! Does he really expect us to believe he studied Maxwell that much and never heard of Blavatsky from Maxwell? I mean the whole movie is this theosophical teaching.

[observer]

[....snip]
Jordan Maxwell and Acharya S. do not present artifacts. They spin a story, and at this point as we do in the South regarding telling a fairy tale, they should start their presentations with,

"You aint gonna believe this sh*t......"



Well.... "You aint gonna believe this sh*t......", either, Serenity.

I wasn't that familiar with Acharya S's background, so beyond the debunking website you posted earlier, I looked into Acharya S. myself. Seems she is supported by and reviewed by credentialed individuals after all, much to the contrary
of what your Mr. Rook_Hawkins had to say in your comment #167.


Click-on forwarding arrow to see content of comment #167

So, I went to Mr. Hawkins' page and read his scathing review of Acharya S., but I didn't want to take his word for it so I simply went, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S).

Here's a link to D.M. Murdock's (Acharya S.) rebuttal to Richard Carrier:
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1461&p=25012#p25012

Her interpretations all seem to be well documented, but I'll leave it to our favorite debunker to find something wrong with the list of footnotes and bibliography found at the bottom of her article where the above rebuttal to Carrier came from, you can find, here (http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/luxor.html).

As to Mr. Hawkins claim that she has not been properly reviewed, and that she is a poor scholar, simply scrolled-down to the section on "Popular reception" where you will find some facts that seem to characterize both Mr. Richard Carrier's review, and Mr. Hawkins' analysis quite opinionated, to say the least.


Wikipedia
...."Theologian Robert M. Price, who is sympathetic to the Christ myth hypothesis, wrote a critical review of Murdock's first book.[22] He has, however, retracted it previously from his website, for reasons unknown currently. He has been supportive of her subsequent work, promoting Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled in a recommended reading list[23] along with promoting the same book in The Pre-Nicene New Testament: Fifty-Four Formative Texts,[24] penning the foreword to Who Was Jesus: Fingerprints of the Christ and writing a positive review of Christ in Egypt.[25] The Christ Conspiracy received a favorable review from author Earl Doherty.[26]"

It was also noted that she published a rejoinder to Christian apologists, notably Mike Licona and James Patrick Holding, which can be found, here (http://www.truthbeknown.com/holding.htm).

Please, Serenity scroll-down to the first paragraph of "Prove Jesus Exists" and tell me this woman hasn't experienced exactly the same consequence when questioning the sacred halls of organized religion.

So, Serenity, with just a cursory review of your sources, it appears the debunkers are simply promoting their opinions and favorite causes much the same as you are doing in this thread. Bill Ryan pointed this out to you in his comment #23.

Maxwell may not have all his facts correct. In my opinion he has more on the money than is off-target. Everything we think are facts from history is a lie. History is the story the guy that wins gets to tell. That's why they call it his-story.

Keep in mind, Maxwell was at the forefront of this movement for the truth well over twenty years ago. There is much more exposed today than was twenty years ago.

In reviewing most of the videos you have included in your debunking of this man, I noticed most of the clips were from many years ago.

Bill was much more political than I have been in my comments when he spoke to you in his comment #23:


Click-on forwarding arrow to see content of comment

He politely explained to you his relationship with Jordan, and he gave you details regarding the state of Mr. Maxwell's psyche in his declining years

Still you persist in picking this man's bones....

....and, you become incredulous when some member, out of sympathy for Jordan, attacks your character....

It appears to me, you are offended by the 'can of truth' Mr. Maxwell opened, so many years ago, and instead of using your zeal to find conformation in the understanding that we have all been lied to, you choose instead to spend all your energies on proving Jordan Maxwell wrong.

Good luck with that one!

This forum is suppose to be about tearing-down the old, failed paradigms and finding insight into new understanding.

I really get a hair-up-my-a$$ when members start beating-up on the pilgrams of truth....

[GCS1103]

U.S.-

I hope you know that there are many members here who enjoy your input and knowledge on certain subjects. Some members don't post because they don't want to be in the middle of a debate, which often escalates a little too much. You're very much appreciated here and, as I said to you before, you make this forum much more interesting. Never let anyone here stop you from giving your opinion or viewpoint on anything. That's what this forum is all about.

[RunningDeer]

U.S.-

I hope you know that there are many members here who enjoy your input and knowledge on certain subjects. Some members don't post because they don't want to be in the middle of a debate, which often escalates a little too much. You're very much appreciated here and, as I said to you before, you make this forum much more interesting. Never let anyone here stop you from giving your opinion or viewpoint on anything. That's what this forum is all about.

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/computer3.gif:moil: Conflict. Shiver.

I stop by for visits. http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/marshmallow-smiley.gif?1292867635

I am one of those that have tons of admiration for your stick-to-itiveness, keen powers of observation, and intelligence.


http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/camp-fire-smiley.gif?1292867563 Thank you, Unified Serenity. It's easy to see why you are on Mother Earth.

Peace,
Paula

[Carmody]

What the whole thing, Serenity, seems to be coming down to...is that you appear to be just a little bit too black and white to function in a way ....which by some form of necessity.... seems to require shading.

Judgement is a reflection from within, which anchors one in the self lies of their own past.


(don't read anything more into what I've written than what the words directly say, I'm not playing innuendo games here. I never do. Such would be interpretation/reflection only) (ie, I've got no comment on the JM thing)(I respect your desire for discernment)

[gripreaper]

The issues of Egypt with regard to ancient astrology do not seem to hold true per Egyptologyst who speak of a completely different system to mark the heavens than what we commonly call astrology today. The example Acharya S portrays of the zodiac in her works is from after the Hellenistic period which is much later than the times she is describing. As for oddities in the ancient world and stone carving and what appear to be machine or laser technology or something more advanced than chisel and hammer don't have anything to do with the astrotheology aspects.

The current egyptologists under Zahi Hawass are protecting their rendition of the story to protect their interests, but the archeology does not bear out their timeline. Our group met Zahi Hawass because he insisted on meeting our group because our group was causing quite a ruckus doing meditations and anchoring energies and such all up and down the Nile.

At any rate, the pyramids perfectly align with the Orion belt, while the portals align with certain stars at certain times during the precession of the Equinoxes, and the Sphinx pointing toward the constellation of Leo places the pyramids AT LEAST 13,000 years old. Also, the water marks on the Spinx, which the Egyptologist have tried to hide, indicates that the monuments on Giza plateau predate a time when the plateau was underwater, which makes them older than the last deluge.

The civilization which first occupied Egypt sure as heck understood astrology, aligned all of the monuments to the stars, and did in fact place the zodiac at Dendara.

[Unified Serenity]

So, I go and read her article and visit Carriers page. I find this interesting exchange:


Murdock’s full text should be appreciated, for it is a classic of a polemical gem:
” He’s releasing a new book about mythicism; hence, he’s trying to get attention by attacking others in the field who seem to have a significant following, in order to garner those followers to himself. Such “professional jealousy” constitutes classic behavior – and something I avoid.
Indeed, I am very helpful and supportive of other scholars in this field, as my reviews of Earl Doherty and Bob Price’s books reveal. I could have done the same for Carrier, but he seems to be interested in competition rather than cooperation. (Notice that my review of Doherty’s book garnered 180 votes, while Price’s received 165 thumbs up – Carrier could have benefited likewise, had he not chosen to be adversarial.)


It’s too bad fellow mythicists feel the need to attack me in order to promote themselves. We should all be working together.”
It means: scratch my back,and I’ll scratch yours, and forget about scholarship and textual and high criticism.
You see, both Earl Doherty and Robert Price are very lucky to see their reputation enhanced by Murdock’s Amazon reviews.
So, you see, Carrier is making a big mistake by alienating Murdock and forgoing the great positive review she could have contributed in favor of his new book.

Carrier doesn’t want to play the game? Too bad, for now he’ll have to earn his approval votes on Amazon the old-fashioned way, by wowing his readers with the value of his own scholarship, and the brilliance of his arguments — without the “friendly” support from Murdock and her happy band of followers, who are now, alas, ready to crowd in and post their negative reviews and “unhelpful” evaluations of reviews and comments on Amazon.

And perhaps, he may be more interested in the positive reactions of the established scholars in the field than in the Amazon meters of popular votes.


In answering Acharya S. response to Carriers review, he responded and I include a portion of his response and some others comments. If anyone cares about what's going on in the scholar community regarding the mythicist research, then they might find these exchanges valid. I note that those who are posting against Carrier on his site seem to enjoy throwing our ad hominems for the most part and not deal with the issues he is bringing up, which as it appears, this is how "scholars" who support the likes of Acharya S. prefer to debate. So, here is the portion I am including here from Carrier, and you can read the entire exchange at his site. (http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/580/comment-page-1#comment-6044):


That Luxor Thing Again

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/wp-content/themes/BlueFTB/images/date.png March 16, 2012 at 7:10 pm http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/wp-content/themes/BlueFTB/images/user.png Richard Carrier
Acharya S (aka D.M. Murdock) responded to my post on That Luxor Thing (http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/294), with a number of weirdly paranoid claims, but one valid criticism, and a few incorrect criticisms and more bad arguments, and it is worth addressing these in this new post. To read her entry in this exchange see Parallelophobia, Personal Attacks and Professional Jealousy: A Response to Richard Carrier’s ‘That Luxor Thing’ (http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1461&p=25012#p25012).



Paranoia vs. Professionalism

One of the reasons Murdock’s methodology goes off the rails is that she assumes everyone is out to get her and that there is always some sort of evil conspiracy against her work. Which insulates her from listening to criticism and correcting the way she does things. That is one of the surest ways to fail as a scholar. It likely also prevents her from having useful dialogs with experts in ancient history. Which is the surest way to make yourself irrelevant as a scholar. But that’s her own lookout.


What concerns me more is her mean-spirited paranoia. For example, she says of me that “He’s releasing a new book about mythicism; hence, he’s trying to get attention by attacking others in the field who seem to have a significant following, in order to garner those followers to himself.” Huh? Why on earth does she come to that conclusion? It’s not even logical, much less in evidence. I’m not interested in “followers” (although by her expressed fear, she evidently is; which is more characteristic of a guru than a scholar). I am interested in persuading academic professionals that a particular theory is true, or at least plausible enough to treat as respectably as other theories in the field. Every time I attempt to do that, I have the sloppy methodology of other mythers thrown in my face as a reason to dismiss all mythicism, and I have to spend a great deal of additional time explaining why my methods are valid and that mythicism can be supported with valid arguments. (I have also had mythers’ unfriendly paranoia cited at me by professors in the field, forcing me to also prove I don’t act like that–I had dismissed that claim about Murdock in the past, but now seeing it flung at me, evidently the scholars who mentioned it to me were correct about it; this is not doing her or mythicism any good, it makes them both look like tinfoil hat.)


By contrast, I have said many times that Earl Doherty’s approach is the most methodological and theoretically sound of any so far (despite only some minor flaws), and I have adapted his theory into its most defensible variant, and I always recommend his book The Jesus Puzzle (http://astore.amazon.com/supportcarrier-20/detail/0968601405) as the best case yet made for mythicism. My review of his work (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/jesuspuzzle.html) mentioned all the ways it was correct, and all the ways it could be improved. In what way does this fit Murdock’s theory about me? Contrary to her paranoid fantasies, I address the validity of facts and methodology, praise where praise is due, censure where censure is due. Instead, Murdock thinks this is a political game whereby we should all “up vote” and “positively review” each others work, and never be “adversarial.” That is a perfect example of why her methodology sucks. That is not how a professional should ever behave. You can never make progress toward any true knowledge if you never criticize or call out error, if you show no interest in the validity of the methods being employed, if you show no desire to root out errors and improve methodologies. If it’s all a “back slapping” game whereby our only aim is to promote each others’ book sales, then we are not scholars. We’re hucksters.


Thus, Murdock intimates that she will now negatively review any books I produce, simply because I did not play her game (which is ironic, as it implies a level of vendetta and dishonesty in her that she projects onto me, to the eternal satisfaction of Sigmund Freud). Instead, I acted like actual scholars act: we criticize each other’s work, specifically so as to identify error and improve our methods and conclusions as a collective enterprise. Instead of being objective and simply evaluating works on their merits, Murdock says she “could have” positively reviewed my work as she did Doherty’s and Price’s, that I “could have benefited likewise,” had I “not chosen to be adversarial.” So, simply because I dared criticize her, now she will trash my work or ignore it, like a pouting child. Not behave, apparently, like a professional. (Notably, “personal attacks” is in the title of her post, yet between us, the only personal attacks I see are hers against me, impugning my motives and honesty; she fails to adduce any actual personal attacks from me against her.)


Another person responds:


Will says: March 19, 2012 at 3:37 pm (http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/580/comment-page-1#comment-6180)
I agree! in fact, it looks to me like Acharya is guilty of the petty motives that she was projecting onto Carrier.. I couldn’t believe she said some of the things she did… she seems to be emotionally married to her intellectual positions… which is anathema to the necessity of scholarly detachment needed to progress and develop ideas in the search for truth.


Carrier goes on to explain more challenges to what's been said:


tat tvam asi: She clearly laid out a situation where The oldest birth cycle inscription included some “sexy” parts, about century later Amenhotep III repeated the older birth sequence leaving the bulk of the “sexy” parts out.

He did not, though. The long redaction is already coy; the short redaction is simply an abbreviation of the same coy narrative, and has proportionally as many hints as before (as I quoted an example of). All the differences between them can be explained by simply that fact: abbreviation. By contrast, so radically changing the fundamental character of the story (from sexual to asexual conception) would require explicitly stating what has changed, not simply abbreviating it. As otherwise anyone of the time who read the short redaction would understand it in light of the long one, the latter being already the one most familiar and established. Her theory therefore defies all probabilities. That it is based on additional speculations only makes it less likely. Because by comparison, my theory (which every Egyptologist agrees with) requires none.
And she feels that this evolution of nativity scenes starting in Egyptian may have influenced the gospel effort, especially in light of the mountain of evidence she presented in CiE for Alexandrian origins through Philo’s “Therapeutae” and the various “collegia” brotherhood network spread throughout the entire region.

I am not getting into what’s wrong with all of the latter; it’s just more bad methodology. And like I said, I don’t have time for this nonsense. The only issue here is “may have influenced” is a useless theory (anything “may” have influenced; what we want to know is what did). By contrast, we can show causal and conceptual influence from the OT and surrounding (non-Egyptian) pagan and political teachings to explain every feature of the Gospel nativities. Thus, her theory rests on a vague and unprovable “maybe,” while the more obvious and mainstream theory rests on abundant facts and sound inferences.
This is what I mean by the difference between good and bad methodology. Indeed, had she actually argued a mere “maybe” she would be on stronger footing. But she does not. She insists with absolute certainty that she is right, and everyone who suggests otherwise is an incompetent liar out to get her.



It would actually be fruitful to discuss the plain evidence of Egyptian divine nativities around the era of Christ what the evidence plainly indicates without excess ad hoc assumptions (along the lines of the quality scholarship of Frankfurter’s 1998 Religion in Roman Egypt: Assimilation and Resistance (http://astore.amazon.com/supportcarrier-20/detail/0691070547)), and not speculations or radical new interpretations, but what experts already conclude, from citing current peer reviewed literature or equivalent, then maybe trace this status quo back to Luxor show change over time, and then compare this with other nativity traditions in surrounding cultures (including Jewish, e.g. Moses), to see if any differential influence can be indicated. But she doesn’t do any of this. She relies on hundred year old articles by amateurs declaring certainties, doesn’t summarize the current state of scholarship on key pieces of evidence or Egyptian belief, and she doesn’t test her theory against alternatives (such as that Matthew is weaving adaptations from the narratives of Moses, Balaam, Daniel, and Hellenistic kings, using provably extant Jewish holy spirit and divine son theology).


What I find of interest is that Carrier is not anti-mythicism. He is against poor research methods which given his subject of interest he has to fight an uphill battle with those among his peers who do not buy into the mythicism argument. He uses proper research, looks for proper citing of work to back up what is said, and believes that ideas are great and worth exploring, but if someone points out an error then deal with it, fix it, and move on. No one is perfect, but instead that is not how DM Murdock / Acharya S. handles any factual criticism of her work. Apparently, people are supposed to just take her word for things and not ask questions.

As for having a respected researcher back her up, I do believe I posted a video today that actually mentioned that she finally got one, though it was also mentioned she apparently attributed more to what was said than the gentleman actually did say. I am only going into this issue on this thread because Murdock and Maxwell are both seeming to be going down the same paths. As for the graves issue, Carrier might not be attributing Murdock's leaning on him a lot, but I will because in the first edition of Zeitgeist she cited him plenty of times. She seems to want to deny using him and at the same time defend his work which almost no one in the historical research community appears to do.

Actually, Observer, I appreciate this exchange, because we are at least looking at what is going on rather than just questioning our own personal motives. My motive is factual evidence. Of course there are hard core types like the Egyptology head in Cairo who won't budge on anything and is playing to good ol' boy game denying any pertinent information that might bring into question the true origins of the Pyramids. I think the issue comes in how conclusions are drawn from one possible event happening in some time period and thus claiming because it's possible that it's plausible and thereby it's not fact instead of just an idea.

I was reading today and came across one of those videos on the Dali Lama example that Maxwell uses, and he just leaps to the conclusion that it's pre-Christian because it's Buddhist, when upon his research that sect didn't come to being until after the time of Christ. He said, and I agreed that would be like the Methodists coming up with some doctrine and because they are Christian some researcher saying it was established at the time of Christ. Do you see the error in that sort of wild fact telling? If someone is going to put forth a theory then they should be able to back it up with some hard data. Let me give another example on a site I was on earlier.

Just because there may have been a Jewish community in India, does not mean they were taking in Hindu beliefs. To say something like Judaism is founded upon Hindu spirituality based on X,Y, Z village located in Calcutta. Well, a true researcher would want something more than that to connect the Jewish beliefs with Hindu influence like maybe a Hindu god story written in Hebrew, some Hindu god images on the walls of the Hebrew homes, and some writings by the Hebrews / Jews proclaiming their faith in this Hindu god. Just because you find a Jewish community in India does not mean that Judaism obtained it's beliefs from the Hindu religion. That is all Carrier is talking about as well as other historians.

Now, as far as Maxwell goes, I have yet to find him recant any of his theories, admit that English words to not apply to transliterated Egyptian or Indian words and thus they do not debunk the bible. On the contrary, all I hear is crickets chirping, and sense people's hurt feelings for my noticing his eschatology, deductions, transliterations, and linguistics are at this point comical. And, please remember, just as you all want me to show some respect for his work, how about the same shoe fitting on the feet of those who want to trash the religion / faith of millions of people who actually are basing their beliefs on known history. I am open to some real interesting information, but Maxwell and I still include Acharya S. will not allow themselves to be questioned nor do they show the slightest humility in admitting they might be wrong, ever. I was told to check him out by him in a presentation where he said, "You don't believe me, check it out for yourself". So I did, and what I found has been shocking to say the least.

I am all for looking into the past, not just ignoring interesting stuff, but I am also aware lots of stuff has been proven to be hoaxes, lies, and outright subterfuge to sling mud at Christianity, and when questioned for proofs and facts, the attack of motive and character bashing is played and it's becoming a broken record player now. I get it, no one cares about proof. They like the story and that's good enough for them. Fine, i'll take my toys and play by myself.

[jagman]

It will all come out with the wash, Unified Serenity. That is what my mamma always said.

[Unified Serenity]

The issues of Egypt with regard to ancient astrology do not seem to hold true per Egyptologyst who speak of a completely different system to mark the heavens than what we commonly call astrology today. The example Acharya S portrays of the zodiac in her works is from after the Hellenistic period which is much later than the times she is describing. As for oddities in the ancient world and stone carving and what appear to be machine or laser technology or something more advanced than chisel and hammer don't have anything to do with the astrotheology aspects.

The current egyptologists under Zahi Hawass are protecting their rendition of the story to protect their interests, but the archeology does not bear out their timeline. Our group met Zahi Hawass because he insisted on meeting our group because our group was causing quite a ruckus doing meditations and anchoring energies and such all up and down the Nile.

At any rate, the pyramids perfectly align with the Orion belt, while the portals align with certain stars at certain times during the precession of the Equinoxes, and the Sphinx pointing toward the constellation of Leo places the pyramids AT LEAST 13,000 years old. Also, the water marks on the Spinx, which the Egyptologist have tried to hide, indicates that the monuments on Giza plateau predate a time when the plateau was underwater, which makes them older than the last deluge.

The civilization which first occupied Egypt sure as heck understood astrology, aligned all of the monuments to the stars, and did in fact place the zodiac at Dendara.

So, you are trying to say that the stars of Orions belt are the 3 kings and Sirius ahead of them point to the rising sun despite the fact that they are below the horizon when the sun comes up? Here is the problem, the bible never said 3 of anything visited the birth of the son. It never said Kings visited the birth of the son either. I never said that the pyramids did not line up with Orion's belt or have any set up with the equinoxes, but that is not what Acharya S, Maxwell or Zeitgiest promote and if you have watched the movies I have provided then you would know that or I am totally missing your point. I do not see how what was said by them despite the fact they are not in the sky at the same time as the sun can work. I think we are talking about two separate but similar issues. The issue is about trying to say the events in the sky are the real truth and the bible is just some made up story, when in fact their astrology is not accurate and the story they are comparing it to is not true to begin with. If there were no kings, no 3, then what does the Orion stars and sirius have to do with the story of Jesus birth, and by the way, the magi did not show up until Jesus was like 2 years old, not at his birth, that's another made for movie child's program called "The little drummer boy" which does not portray the bible correctly. It almost seems like their bible scholarship is based on Sunday School songs and Christmas tv shows and not what the bible actually says.

[Unified Serenity]

I went to Egypt in 2008 and saw the zodiac at Dendara with my own eyes. I have listened to Whites critique of Maxwell, although it's been a year or two since. I've listened to several of Acharya S. interviews in years past and have done some of the research.



Thanks for bringing this up. This is from Acharya's book, "Christ in Egypt":

17405
This is a good example of the criticisms of her work. Notice the amount of time she says, "May have" or some derivative of that, and thus a researcher cannot go from May to, "It's a fact that this is how ancient Hebrews were influenced by Egyptian astrology. A couple hundred Years before Christ is not exactly a long time in the grand scheme of things.

I also just did a study which is on my blog. It goes into the fact that long before the written word there was the oral tradition and this can go many ways. One could say, "whose oral tradition". Nonetheless, the bible speaks volumes about the Mazzaroth and the message in the stars, and I do believe there is a very interesting message. I read E.W. Bullinger's work, "Witness of the stars" back in the late 80's. See, the problem with most fundamental Christians is you even say something like that and they get their crosses out like you're a vampire and start talking about casting out a demon from you. My Rebbitzen wouldn't even let me finish telling her about the book in women's bible study back in 91 because astrology is ungodly. :rolleyes:

So, I do appreciate the frustration people have when it comes to the whole star and astrology issue and bible thumping believers. My issue is that apparently there are some pretty big discrepancies in what the ancient Egyptians did in marking the heavens for seasons verses how it works today. Things were not as neat and orderly in the houses and break-down of houses and degrees then. Now, it appears from the bible that they did have a system and the scriptures bear this out. You can read my study (http://unifiedserenity.wordpress.com/astrology-mazzaroth-vs-astrotheology/)there if you are interested.

[observer]

I awoke this morning, and in my rush to get ready for work, I did a quick search on "age of the zodiac". This is what I came-up with from Space.com (http://www.space.com/15722-constellations.html)

In the second paragraph, it clearly states:


From the article, "Constellations: The Zodiac Constellation Names".
"....The Greeks adopted their system from the Babylonians, whose origins in turn may have stemmed from Sumerian traditions 3,000 years before. Even further back, scientists suspect that markings on a the cave walls at Lascaux in southern France — created over 17,000 years ago — may chart the Pleiades and Hyades star clusters, making it the first known star map....."

....such a big difference between 17,000 years ago, and the Hellenistic period of 330 BCE. Makes me wonder who's book of facts these Astrotheology debunkers are working from. Just what is the agenda here?

As I've been pointing-out since joining the Avalon forum, back during the days of the old Avalon Forum: "everything we think we know is part of a bigger lie.... and, the lie is different at every level."

My only agenda for being on this forum is to tear-down the walls of the ideologies that have been used to keep the Mass of Humanity in a state of obscene servitude since the Dawn of Man.

Apparently other members have a different agenda....

[DNA]

I look forward to the day when I have done work that is significant enough to be debunked by Mr. White. How else will I know that I am on the right track?

Now then, back to reading Blavatsky.

Holy crap Whiskey. You rock! Such a wonderfully consice statement. I'm laughing my ass off and still amazed at how well you said that in so few words.
That takes talent. On top of it, your avatar is amazing as well. Thanks. :)

[Mad Hatter]

Mad Hatter dons his intrigued cap...


From the article, "Constellations: The Zodiac Constellation Names".
"....The Greeks adopted their system from the Babylonians, whose origins in turn may have stemmed from Sumerian traditions 3,000 years before. Even further back, scientists suspect that markings on a the cave walls at Lascaux in southern France — created over 17,000 years ago — may chart the Pleiades and Hyades star clusters, making it the first known star map....."

Only 17,000 years ago? I may well be ignorant in this matter but I was under the impression that an integral part of the zodiac system (at least one of them) involved the procession of the equinoxes. Now knowledge of that particular component requires some form of ability to record accurate information in either a verbal manner or some trail of ancient texts to track a phenomenon that takes some 26,000 odd years to figure out and that is assuming you knew what to look for in the first place... even for highly observant individuals playing such a long game of Chinese whispers how likely is that to be true?

One should of course dismiss such as nonsense since no proper empirical evidence based peer review taking another 26,000 years has been carried out and to date no ancient texts from that era have been discovered....

So why do so many feel convinced of the truth of such a phenomenon or is that simply a display of some sort of faith?

*Mad Hatter wanders away scratching his head*

All is well :p

[Unified Serenity]

http://www.lindahall.org/events_exhib/exhibit/exhibits/napoleon/images/learn/lowerzodiac.jpg


The problem Observer, is that you seem to be assuming how times are marked and counted today are how they did it back then. No one is debating that constellations were named, but the whole order of the counting of time as we do it today just doesn't line up. It's like saying we have our modern methods of farming straight from the sumerians because they have pictures of food on tablets. Of course we have no explanation of those pictures, nor do we even have a written system of how they rotated crops, got the seeds ready, did they pre-germinate them or just drop them in the soil? Did they use raised beds or just dig a hole. Just because they had star clusters and names does not mean they had the same system of counting time. It also does not mean their system was better or worse.

I don't know if you are missing the point on this purposefully or you just don't get what I am saying. The system that astrologers use today to mark the houses in the zodiac and their degrees does not line up with what was going on in ancient egypt. That is from the oldest information on Egyptiian representations of the wheel in the sky or lack thereof. The one at Dendera is from the Hellenistic time period and that is around 300 BC. This is important because it shows a change, which throws into question the whole astro theology foundation regarding the mythicists explanations of where the bible really came from.

The Dendera zodiac is the first depiction in Egypt of the complete zodiac such as we have today. Much controversy has surrounded this carving,



Stripped from the portico of a chapel dedicated to Osiris at the Hathor Temple at Dendera (http://heritage-key.com/site/temple-hathor-dendera) in 1820, then shipped to Paris, the beautifully carved bas-relief played an unlikely role in fierce disputes over science and faith in Napoleonic and Restoration France.


Today, the zodiac continues to spark debate. As the first known depiction in history of the classical zodiac of twelve signs, spiritualists peer at its enigmatic symbols looking for a reflection of modern-day astrological beliefs. Egyptologists insist it has no modern application, and is little more than an early planisphere created to document the heavens exactly as the Egyptians witnessed them at a specific point in mid-50 BC.



...The ideological battle raged back and forth, before Jean-François Champollion (http://heritage-key.com/egypt/jean-fran%C3%A7ois-champollion) – who was on the verge of cracking the mysteries of Egyptian hieroglyphics thanks to the Rosetta Stone (http://heritage-key.com/egypt/rosetta-stone-ancient-interpreter) – stepped in and unlocked the secrets of the zodiac. Despite being a thoroughly antireligious fellow himself, Champollion proved the church reactionaries right, albeit for all the wrong reasons.
By interpreting the hieroglyphic side markings depicted in Denon’s drawings of the zodiac in situ, he was able to accurately date the artefact to the very late period of Greco-Roman domination of Egypt in the 1st century BC, thus upholding – at least for the moment – Christian beliefs in the relative youth of Egyptian society. Consequently, the argument over the zodiac slowly died out.





...The great bas-relief freezes, quite literally in stone, a very specific moment for the movements of the heavens, by displaying a certain configuration of the planets among the constellations that occurs only once every thousand years or so. An astrophysicist has dated this point to between 15 June and 15 August 50 BC (further proving just how clever Champollion was in his accurate dating of the zodiac).



...“The representations of the signs of the zodiac as we know them today did not appear in Egypt until the Greco-Roman Period,” writes Étienne. “This monument reflects the way Egyptian cultural elements merged with Babylonian and Greek astronomical and astrological theories, as a result of the Assyrian and Babylonian deportations of the 8th and 6th centuries BC, and the Persian and Greek invasions of the 6th and 4th centuries.” ARTICLE (http://heritage-key.com/egypt/dendera-zodiac-worlds-first-horoscope)
rWW9xJNgkcU


Let's look at the points Acharya S makes.




The Southern Crux (Cross)

The Souther Crux, which is called "the cross of the Zodiac" in the Zeitgeist film, is described in the movie as reflective of the sun while traversing the sky over the span of the year. It appears that not much research took place in the course of adding this to the production, since if the makers of Zeitgeist had checked into this constellation they would have found that it is a modern discovery[64] (http://ct.grenme.com/index.php/Zeitgeist_Part_I#_note-63). The reason the crux was not discovered until the sixteenth century is because it was not visible from the Northern Hemisphere for much of the year (note: not during the winter), and it became identified and used because explorers and ship captains who sailed in the Southern Hemisphere would use it as a guide[65] (http://ct.grenme.com/index.php/Zeitgeist_Part_I#_note-64).
It is evident that this claim made in the film mixes up ancient astrologies with more modern versions in order to make its dubious case. How do the makers of this film justify this mistake? The simple way: they don't. Despite the fact that the Southern Crux only appears in the lexicon of astrology 1600 years after the beginning of the Common Era and more than a millenium and a half after the beginning of Christianity, the film attempts to use this constellation as a 'proof' in a tautological fashion.
we are told in Zeitgeist about the zodiac that,



http://xrystiann.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/cross-of-the-zodiac.jpg




"This is the cross of the Zodiac, one of the oldest conceptual images in human history. It reflects the sun as it figuratively passes through the 12 major constellations over the course of a year. It also reflects the 12 months of the year, the 4 seasons, and the solstices and equinoxes. The term Zodiac relates to the fact that constellations were anthropomorphized, or personified, as figures, or animals."


The zodiac wheel is also sometimes referred to as the "wheel of fortune" (yes, like the game show) or the "zodiac wheel of fortune" [28] (http://ct.grenme.com/index.php/Zeitgeist_Part_I#_note-27) [29] (http://ct.grenme.com/index.php/Zeitgeist_Part_I#_note-28). The reason this is misleading is because the narrator never mentions the names for what he is describing by their actual names and the wording is such to give the impression that the name that the narrator (or one of his sources) has conjured up is supposedly somehow the actual name even though there is no proof to back up such a claim. What makes the deceit most blatant is that the maker(s) of the film used a very modern zodiac wheel that is printed with English words on it. This is blatant because modern English is less than 600 years old, and even the Old English and Middle English languages weren't around until the sixth and twelfth centuries CE, respectively. From the very beginning of the film the narration is setting the viewer up with mistaken and misleading information.

Furthermore, throughout the film the narrator continually refers to the zodiac as containing 12 constellations, but that claim only applies to the pseudoscience of astrology. In the real science of astronomy, the number of constellations varies between thirteen or twenty-four constellations depending on which method you use to measure it [30] (http://ct.grenme.com/index.php/Zeitgeist_Part_I#_note-29). Article (http://ct.grenme.com/index.php/Zeitgeist_Part_I#Modern_Astrology)

I believe that if one is telling the truth, then they don't need to use misleading images, vague correlations and then treat all who bring up questions as to the veracity of the claims she makes as though they are in error because all of academia is controlled by the cabal. I mean, she 's happy to get a review from these bastards, but I guess they are trustworthy when one or two who want her followers to buy their books give her a positive review.

I mean, professors of academia would not stoop to supporting or showing some support for Acharya's work just to sell some books would they?

I really dont care who is supporting her or who isn't. I care about claims she makes, that Maxwell makes and Zeitgeist pushes that when asked for some proof, they don't give it. They point at the zodiac and say, see it's right there, but when pressed to explain how the ancients who did not have that zodiac and how the star of the crossing was not in that sky at that time, and how Orion's belt was not in the sky when the sun came up, how can they stand there accuse those asking questions based on THOSE KNOWN facts of being against them because what, they have the truth and those who can look at the sky and now star charts are wrong?

[sleepy]

[xxxxx xxxxxx

[shadowstalker]

U.S.-

I hope you know that there are many members here who enjoy your input and knowledge on certain subjects. Some members don't post because they don't want to be in the middle of a debate, which often escalates a little too much. You're very much appreciated here and, as I said to you before, you make this forum much more interesting. Never let anyone here stop you from giving your opinion or viewpoint on anything. That's what this forum is all about.

US,

What he said,


sleepy

What they said , and much love...

[observer]

"The problem Observer, is that you seem to be assuming how times are marked and counted today are how they did it back then. No one is debating that constellations were named, but the whole order of the counting of time as we do it today just doesn't line up.
[....snip]


No, Serenity, I'm making no such assumption. It couldn't matter to me how you, or for that matter, anyone other individual makes an interpretation of any of this evidence.

My debate with you is regarding your support of a Christian perspective and using that perspective to debunk any interpretation contrary to your perspective. You are using interpretations from individuals whose methods are as dubious as your claim regarding Jordan Maxwell's methods.

The point of my comment #203 was to demonstrate there are many ways to interpret the data. And, I've already elaborated on the fact that there is more data hidden-away in drawers marked 'anomaly' than there is data to interpret.

If you don't believe that, than just listen to Michael Cremo, Lloyd Pie, Joseph Farrell, Klaus Dona, or any of the others I listed in my comment #165.

My comments in this thread are designed to point-out that there are other ways to interpret the data then the ways you are using to debunk Maxwell, yet you insist that the only way to interpret that data is the way in which you are doing it.


There are so many aspects of the record that are incomplete.
There is so much that has been hidden from the Masses.
There is so much intention in the reason your sources are debunking Mr. Maxwell. Clearly, all of the evidence has not been discovered.


I have openly stated my intentions on this forum. If you review my comments, you will see most of them - with few exceptions - are designed to tear-down the walls of ideologies.

Yahwist theologies - in their three major forms - are foundationally the major cause of obscene human suffering on this planet since these theologies were contrived.

From my few interactions with you on this and other threads, it is my perception that you are supporting at least two of these theologies as being the "Word of God".

Your agenda, appears to me, to be in direct opposition to my agenda, and it is for this reason that I'm making comments in this thread.

....That, and the fact I personally respect Jordan Maxwell and his bravery to come forward at the time he did - regardless if his interpretations were absolutely correct or not in the eyes of some interpreting his conclusions.

I will leave this thread. It is a waste of my valuable energies.

....and, I will leave this pointless debate with you, suggesting a simple admonition:


The world was once flat, and the center of the universe.
There are many who still believe the universe is only 6,000 years old.
Just a little over one hundred years ago, the Bible was used to justify slavery, here in the U.S.A.
There are still places in the world where the Koran is used to justify genital mutilation of women.
Within certain communities and within certain periods of time, if you didn't believe in the theology of one of these Yahwist religions, you could be burned at the stake.


I would really like to see the members spend their energies - here in this forum - in pursuit of new understanding to tear-down the walls of these ideologies, in-lieu-of debunking those who are making an attempt to do so....

[Unified Serenity]

um, that picture of bush flipping people off was not in my post. It's really very odd that was there. I will put up the correct image. Pretty funny though.

[Unified Serenity]

The world was once flat, and the center of the universe.
There are many who still believe the universe is only 6,000 years old.
Just a little over one hundred years ago, the Bible was used to justify slavery, here in the U.S.A.
There are still places in the world where the Koran is used to justify genital mutilation of women.
Within certain communities and within certain periods of time, if you didn't believe in the theology of one of these Yahwist religions, you could be burned at the stake.





Your list of ignorant views goes right along with my problems with Acharya S. and how she does research and jumps to conclusions as well as Maxwell's creative linguistics. Your list is inane and as crazy as those ideas sound, that's really how what Acharya S. and Maxwell seem like to those who actually care about proof and factual data. Thanks for proving my points.

It's really too bad you don't want to actually examine the points raised. You don't deal with the factual errors about where the stars are, what system of Astrology was being used, and what was visible in the sky. I can understand it though, because it's pretty obvious those arguments they use to "debunk" the bible which you don't seem to see that nuance in all of this that these people are debunkers themselves, do not stand up to critical scrutiny.

Let me ask you or anyone else this. Do you think there were symbolic images or portrayals in movies ahead of the 9/11 events? I mean like the simpsons show, that lone gunman pilot show, the gremlins reporters having 9 and 11 on their microphones, the clocks and pc screens in movies showing 9:11 or 9/11? Do you think there are funny images on some of our money like the $5, $10, $20, and $50 bills from America? I am curious if you give those images credence to some plot / plan going on in our world.

[heyokah]

***I will leave this thread. It is a waste of my valuable energies.

....and, I will leave this pointless debate with you, suggesting a simple admonition:



The world was once flat, and the center of the universe.
There are many who still believe the universe is only 6,000 years old.
Just a little over one hundred years ago, the Bible was used to justify slavery, here in the U.S.A.
There are still places in the world where the Koran is used to justify genital mutilation of women.
Within certain communities and within certain periods of time, if you didn't believe in the theology of one of these Yahwist religions, you could be burned at the stake.


***I would really like to see the members spend their energies - here in this forum - in pursuit of new understanding to tear-down the walls of these ideologies, in-lieu-of debunking those who are making an attempt to do so....




Your list of ignorant views goes right along with my problems with Acharya S. and how she does research and jumps to conclusions as well as Maxwell's creative linguistics. Your list is inane and as crazy as those ideas sound, that's really how what Acharya S. and Maxwell seem like to those who actually care about proof and factual data. Thanks for proving my points.

It's really too bad you don't want to actually examine the points raised. You don't deal with the factual errors about where the stars are, what system of Astrology was being used, and what was visible in the sky. I can understand it though, because it's pretty obvious those arguments they use to "debunk" the bible which you don't seem to see that nuance in all of this that these people are debunkers themselves, do not stand up to critical scrutiny.

Let me ask you or anyone else this. Do you think there were symbolic images or portrayals in movies ahead of the 9/11 events? I mean like the simpsons show, that lone gunman pilot show, the gremlins reporters having 9 and 11 on their microphones, the clocks and pc screens in movies showing 9:11 or 9/11? Do you think there are funny images on some of our money like the $5, $10, $20, and $50 bills from America? I am curious if you give those images credence to some plot / plan going on in our world.

***added by heyokah

****

Ohhhh, you really ARE "clever"....... (or a bad reader,.... but I don't think so)

That's why not many of us want to go in discussion with you.

And that's very wise.


I will leave you with observers words :


"I would really like to see the members spend their energies - here in this forum - in pursuit of new understanding to tear-down the walls of these ideologies, in-lieu-of debunking those who are making an attempt to do so.... "



****


btw



um, that picture of bush flipping people off was not in my post. It's really very odd that was there. I will put up the correct image. Pretty funny though.

..... Was Bush playing Rex Mundi on you ?

His finger was up there for quite long though....


****

My comment will probably been seen as "off topic" and reported....., so it will be removed .

Only you Serenity seem to be allowed to cynisism and discrediting members....:confused:

[observer]

Since, Ms. Serenity, it was you who drew 'first blood' with your reference to my "ignorance", I am compelled, now, to come back into this travesty to defend my integrity - one final time.

1. The list of items I included in my final statement to you (comment #209) was a list of items that are irrefutable. These are not my beliefs, rather those beliefs of many individuals subscribing to these Yahwist text.

2. I used this list to demonstrate how exclusively perverted one can become when believing this sort of Yahwist doctrine. I could have continued the list to 100 items.... even 1,000 items, but what point would that have made? Five items were sufficient to demonstrate my point - which was an admonition to you, and summarized in the final sentence of that #209 comment.


observer's final statement:
"I would really like to see the members spend their energies - here in this forum - in pursuit of new understanding to tear-down the walls of these ideologies, in-lieu-of debunking those who are making an attempt to do so...."


3. With reference to your "ignorance" statement, I would submit, who is really the bozo on this bus? I make reference to the below quote as foundational to what I'm about to tell the members.



[....snip]
How can I believe anything but that JM is doing anything but pseudo waking people up to only help move them over into the very system via a new age spiritual path dedicated to the very same goals as the NWO? I truly believe theosophy and astrotheology is the coming New World Order system religion where all religions are all united working as one under a political as well as religious leader. How is learning from Maxwell only to discover these things about him going to help them? I am frustrated because the more I have dug, the worse it has gotten. I agree there is most definitely some important symbolism to be aware of, but if one is a newly awakened person and is not prepared, they could be in deep kimshi before they even realize how off the mark they are.
[....snip]


In summation:

Ms. Serenity is subscribing to a fundamentalist Christian point of view with the above statement. It is no great secret that Christians lump everything "Gnostic" into one bag and use their very limited understanding of what Gnostic actually means to herald their cause, which is: that the New World Order is trying to take their religion away and replace it with a new World Religion, i.e. New Age Religion.

Most of the 'informed' members, here, understand this concept (that there is a plan in play to create a new world religion that coincides with the plans of the global elite to create a New World Order) so, Ms. Serenity is making no new revelations with that rant.

The point that intrigues me is that she is debunking the very man that some twenty years ago pointed this very fact out.

I draw your attention to her summarizing statement in her comment #211:



[....snip]
"Let me ask you or anyone else this. Do you think there were symbolic images or portrayals in movies ahead of the 9/11 events? I mean like the simpsons show, that lone gunman pilot show, the gremlins reporters having 9 and 11 on their microphones, the clocks and pc screens in movies showing 9:11 or 9/11? Do you think there are funny images on some of our money like the $5, $10, $20, and $50 bills from America? I am curious if you give those images credence to some plot / plan going on in our world.


It was Jordan Maxwell who, in his role as a symboligist, first introduced the idea that the symbol on the back of a dollar bill was a symbol of a secret society, and that by its presence on the dollar bill, it was thereby indicating there was a control mechanism in play being managed by what has become known as the New World Order.

Only someone who had done extensive research into Jordan Maxwell's message would know this, as Ms. Serenity obviously does not know this fact.

I submit, she is researching and debunking a man based on what the Christian community is saying regarding the life work of Jordan Maxwell, and only looking at that point of view. This method is in direct opposition to her stated goal, that she goes deep into her research.

This single point, made here, should be evidence enough that she is using exactly the same techniques that she and her sources are accusing Jordan Maxwell of.

So, as my final statement in this pointless debate I ask the discerning members of the Avalon Forum: who is the one appearing to be ignorant in this issue? It's a rhetorical question.

:closed:

[sigma6]

Let me ask you or anyone else this. Do you think there were symbolic images or portrayals in movies ahead of the 9/11 events? I mean like the simpsons show, that lone gunman pilot show, the gremlins reporters having 9 and 11 on their microphones, the clocks and pc screens in movies showing 9:11 or 9/11? Do you think there are funny images on some of our money like the $5, $10, $20, and $50 bills from America? I am curious if you give those images credence to some plot / plan going on in our world.

Absolutely, and there's tons more including the Terminator movie truck chase scene with the warning sign 9'11'', the classic X-files episode 7-9 months prior, Cooper's and Jone's predictions, the predictors that made Clif High's Webbot famous and if you have checked out any of the vids I suggested, especially Empire of the City - World Superstate, you know there were huge 'shorts' placed by various Banks and Insurance companies that could have easily been traced (normally a high risk investing strategy, unless you know something about the market) the signs were everywhere... btw, I was kinda disappointed I didn't get much response on any of my stuff? Have you checked out any of the vids I suggested as part of your 'research'?... Anyhow, why do you ask? I am not exactly sure what you are getting at here?

[watchZEITGEISTnow]

Hey I just want to add, I am sorry if I came off as angry in my posts in defense of Jordan. I just feel very strongly this thread is a hit piece on Jordan Maxwell, and I just have to learn to convey that in a more unified tone - usually I am posting how I speak, so it's just a 'silly anger' not a evil one..

On topic I was frustrated that Unified Serenity seemed to be very defensive, and lash out at me (not speaking for others) - without understanding my personal and researched viewpoint. Observer has articulated this much better than I have, and I wish I could say English is my second language, but it's not. :P

LANGUAGE causes a lot of confusion with different dialogs. The perpetrators of control mechanisms such as those of religion or say mind control know and exploit that confusion.

I'd recommend Kathleen Sullivan's book Kathleen Sullivan - Unshackled a survivors story of mind control http://www.scribd.com/doc/3839510/Kathleen-SullivanUnshackled-a-survivors-story-of-mind-control on her personal experiences of the religious version of MK, and

Cathy O'Brien book Trance Formation of America - Cathy O'Brien http://www.scribd.com/doc/46291934/Trance-Formation-of-America-Cathy-O-Brien as more proof of this.

thank you for listening. :)

[jimmer]

...
You are digging in your heals, making judgements about me, and not even examining the information with an open mind. No, your mind is already made up.
...

US, I know what you mean and what you are up against.
If you like to see another example of 'attacks without examining the information' check out this past PA thread on the 9/11 Pentagon attack.
An excellent example of bypassing credible information in order to defend a weak conspiracy theory.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?4867-Evidence-That-A-Boeing-757-Really-Did-Impact-the-Pentagon-on-9-11&p=44374&viewfull=1#post44374

[OnyxKnight]

This criticism is from Chris White of Youtube, a christian fundamentalist, who tries to debunk alternative researchers that don't agree with his beliefs in Christ

Sorry. So the guy has a bone to pick, it doesn't mean he didn't do his homework.

Oh but it does. When he picks everything in the alternative community apart, and every other researcher, not just Maxwell.

[Unified Serenity]

Since, Ms. Serenity, it was you who drew 'first blood' with your reference to my "ignorance", I am compelled, now, to come back into this travesty to defend my integrity - one final time.

Actually observer, I said those beliefs were ignorant. Now I feel silly because I actually did not think you thought the earth was flat which to me and well most of the people on planet earth do not think it's flat, but I guess you do support that idea. I said all those ideas in your bullet list were ignorant ideas. I never called you ignorant as far as I recall. Please quote where I called you ignorant.


1. The list of items I included in my final statement to you (comment #209) was a list of items that are irrefutable. These are not my beliefs, rather those beliefs of many individuals subscribing to these Yahwist text.So, are you saying this as a bible thumper would or are you saying this is your belief? Are you saying someone can try to make the bible say these things and thus somehow you are thus proving how much in error the bible is? Quite frankly, I can say that the car company Honda is prophesied in the bible, after all it does say they were all in one accord! It's funny and cute, and childish, but it does not explain or teach anything of spiritual significance. Using the bible out of context is how Lucifer has abused the people of the world with the taken over Church.

One can know what the bible says by understanding Greek Grammar rules, the original languages, and idioms of the day, and keeping it all in context. If you choose to say it's a fairy tale then that's your right. However, the work of Zeitgeist, Maxwell, and Acharya S. makes wild claims about the stars and seasons and then compares them supposedly to the bible in ENGLISH no less to try to say the bible is just a myth. I find it kind of funny that these same people who would go around like Maxwell does and say we have symbolism pointing to actual things happening in the world and people are too blind to see it cannot possibly entertain that his dogma of theosophy is wrong. The Stars do tell a plan, they do speak of what's to come, and no one can monkey around with their story or deny what is in the heavens. You dont even need to speak a special language because it's picture language.

My question about the 9/11 symbolism, and story being played out in that pilot program and the images on the money of the twin towers and Oklahoma city bombing, and pentagon being hit as well as some stuff that hasn't happened yet have pointed to real events of significance we have recently experienced. Did God leave us a record of his plan in the heavens? Does the bible speak of this plan? Did the ancients know of this plan and build their own ideas around it? The fact for me is the message in the stars does not negate the truth of Judaism or Christianity as myths that take their beliefs from these ancient stories. They are the result of events portrayed to come that have happened and we have historic record of those events happening. Accept it or reject it, I don't care, but don't discount archeological evidence and artifacts as well as other written documents supporting the accounts and people who have passed them down from generation to generation.

Call me whatever names you want to call me. I know from where my evidence comes, I know who I am, and it does seem the new word of shame is "Fundamentalist". If you Heyokah are trying to lump me in with those who follow fundamental bible doctrine that would be foolish on your part. I do believe in having some fundamentals, but the label fundamentalist is akin to saying "can't think and should be ignored from here on out". I do believe calling names on the forum is not allowed. I am not a Baptist or whatever that church is that is out burning Korans is. I am a messianic believer and I care about truth. I believe I have shared where there are serious errors in what Acharya S, Maxwell and Zeitgeist have tried to say about Christianity.

I find it pretty funny that you are so fast to jump to a conclusion of what I am saying. I have been a communicator for a very long time, and often do a pretty swell job of making a point and proving it. It is the issue that Maxwell does see these awful NWO elites using symbology to show us what is going to happen and the irony that he can't accept that the God of creation did the same thing about what is going to happen on earth. No, he has to go around making fun of Christians and trashing their beliefs because there are symbols in the heavens. That's the real irony that you can't see how he is so sold out to this Luciferian religion that he ignores his own teachings about how the system has worked.

[Unified Serenity]

US, I know what you mean and what you are up against.
If you like to see another example of 'attacks without examining the information' check out this past PA thread on the 9/11 Pentagon attack.
An excellent example of bypassing credible information in order to defend a weak conspiracy theory.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?4867-Evidence-That-A-Boeing-757-Really-Did-Impact-the-Pentagon-on-9-11&p=44374&viewfull=1#post44374

Hey Jimmer,

I have not looked at that thread or what evidence your are speaking about. I am one of those people who do believe that there is a preponderance of evidence showing that the 9/11, 7/7, Oklahoma city bombing, Pearl Harbor, Vietnam Tonkin bay, Lusitania were all false flag events... oh and let's not forget Reighstag fire in that whole mess. I will look at the thread to see what you are talking about. I also believe we are given hidden symbols about what is spiritually happening like all those blasted pine cones in the religions pointing to the importance of the pineal gland and how the use of fluoride seems to be tied to calcifying that spirit connecting gland so we cannot focus spiritually like we used to. Anyone who knows me, I love a good conspiracy, but I also investigate them as thoroughly as I can to my satisfaction in how I come to a decision. Thanks for your reply. I am more than happy to discuss those events on another thread.

¤=[Post Update]=¤




This criticism is from Chris White of Youtube, a christian fundamentalist, who tries to debunk alternative researchers that don't agree with his beliefs in Christ

Sorry. So the guy has a bone to pick, it doesn't mean he didn't do his homework.

Oh but it does. When he picks everything in the alternative community apart, and every other researcher, not just Maxwell.

So, are you suggesting that if he is ever wrong on something then we cannot trust him? If you are saying that, then how can you trust Maxwell who I have shown over and over is wrong in some of the things he has been teaching thousands upon thousands of people.

[heyokah]

Dear Serenity,
I would not DARE to call you a fundamentalist. :)
I know you would have me thrown out of the forum immediately, as calling names is not allowed.


Call me whatever names you want to call me. I know from where my evidence comes, I know who I am, and it does seem the new word of shame is "Fundamentalist". If you Heyokah are trying to lump me in with those who follow fundamental bible doctrine that would be foolish on your part. I do believe in having some fundamentals, but the label fundamentalist is akin to saying "can't think and should be ignored from here on out". I do believe calling names on the forum is not allowed. I am not a Baptist or whatever that church is that is out burning Korans is. I am a messianic believer and I care about truth. I believe I have shared where there are serious errors in what Acharya S, Maxwell and Zeitgeist have tried to say about Christianity.

So you be careful when you state that fundamentalists are people that "can't think and should be ignored from here on out"
Someone might feel offended ......

Btw
Very wise you made that edit ...... ;-)

Off topic....I know, I know.
I will not be bothering you again :nod:

[Khaleesi]

Dear Serenity,
I would not DARE to call you a fundamentalist. :)
I know you would have me thrown out of the forum immediately, as calling names is not allowed.


Call me whatever names you want to call me. I know from where my evidence comes, I know who I am, and it does seem the new word of shame is "Fundamentalist". If you Heyokah are trying to lump me in with those who follow fundamental bible doctrine that would be foolish on your part. I do believe in having some fundamentals, but the label fundamentalist is akin to saying "can't think and should be ignored from here on out". I do believe calling names on the forum is not allowed. I am not a Baptist or whatever that church is that is out burning Korans is. I am a messianic believer and I care about truth. I believe I have shared where there are serious errors in what Acharya S, Maxwell and Zeitgeist have tried to say about Christianity.

So you be careful when you state that fundamentalists are people that "can't think and should be ignored from here on out"
Someone might feel offended ......

Btw
Very wise you made that edit ...... ;-)

Off topic....I know, I know.
I will not be bothering you again :nod:

I'm not sure where this came from. I have seen some members calling Serenity a fundamentalist. She did not specify anyone in particular. She simply noted she has been called a fundamentalist. As for those of you that want to label Serenity a fundamentalist, I beg to differ. Do a little searching of some of her post. I don't know of a fundamentalist congregation/denomination that doesn't preach the 'Pauline doctrine'. Serenity has posted on numerous occasions her feelings about Paul/Saul of Tarsus based on her studies of the Bible in the original languages. While much of what Paul taught was truth, he also contradicted Jesus. Her studies showing Paul to be a false Apostle is NOT fundamentalist teaching and she has had many disagreements with them on this issue alone.

PS Serenity does not have the power to 'have you thrown out of the forum'. I have seen many members calling names that have not even been dealt with so this seems to be an attempt to attribute mod actions to some 'power' that Serenity does not have. When mods 'throw someone out' it is due to their own actions.

[heyokah]

Khaleesi,

Well I'm not sure where this came from either.
And I will leave it like that.

Thanks for your concern :)

Maybe we could ask Serenity.....?

[ThePythonicCow]

Good grief ... too much of this thread is a waste of the reader's time.

[WhiteFeather]

Good grief ... too much of this thread is a waste of the reader's time.

Couldn't agree with you more Paul. ~Wanishi~

[OnyxKnight]

So, are you suggesting that if he is ever wrong on something then we cannot trust him? If you are saying that, then how can you trust Maxwell who I have shown over and over is wrong in some of the things he has been teaching thousands upon thousands of people.

'Some' is the key word here.

Tell me one person who has it all figured out flawlessly, and is still alive.



I didn't say I trust Maxwell (it is irrelevant whether I out of all people trust him or not - I'm no factor), I just said I don't like this so called debunker dude.

[buckminster fuller]

From wikipedia :

"Fundamentalism is the demand for a strict adherence to specific theological doctrines usually understood as a reaction against Modernist theology, combined with a vigorous attack on outside threats to their religious culture.[1] The term "fundamentalism" was originally coined by its supporters to describe a specific package of theological beliefs that developed into a movement within the Protestant community of the United States in the early part of the 20th century, and that had its roots in the Fundamentalist–Modernist Controversy of that time.[2] The term usually has a religious connotation indicating unwavering attachment to a set of irreducible beliefs.[3] "Fundamentalism" is sometimes used as a pejorative term, particularly when combined with other epithets (as in the phrase "right-wing fundamentalists").[4][5]"

... -_-