*ALL* Religion should die!

[watchZEITGEISTnow]

That's right - it is a lie, a con. A control system.

Jesus lived in my belief. Jesus was a cool cat, and who knows what really happened there? One thing is for sure Jesus was wholly (npi) opposed to religion.

You have been conned. There are some nice parts in scripts - some very wise and loving teachings. That is where it ends. It has been outdated for so long, and has caused just about every war invented (or by proxy) - and it needs to end!

Believe in what you want - go for it, just don't tell me your belief is any better than Freds, or Sally's. If someone pushes the agenda of recruiting for religion, they should be exposed.

Common ground is what I believe can bridge the gap - love, no war, and world peace for example. I guess I'm still trying how to deal with a blatant brainwashed blind follower that wants to inch their way in because they believe they are doing a god's work.

Avalon should be 100% against religions. Avalon should be 100% for spirituality.

*off soap box* (for a few minutes anyway) :P

[Khaleesi]

I guess I'm still trying how to deal with a blatant brainwashed blind follower that wants to inch their way in because they believe they are doing a god's work.


Emphasis mine.

Calling someone names is inappropriate , even if you hide behind the "I didn't say a specific name." excuse. My problem is this statement directly contradicts

Believe in what you want
this statemement. It seems you are not willing to 'agree to disagree' on a subject, but simply want to shut someone else up or derail their thread.

[Tony]

That's right - it is a lie, a con. A control system.

Jesus lived in my belief. Jesus was a cool cat, and who knows what really happened there? One thing is for sure Jesus was wholly (npi) opposed to religion.

You have been conned. There are some nice parts in scripts - some very wise and loving teachings. That is where it ends. It has been outdated for so long, and has caused just about every war invented (or by proxy) - and it needs to end!

Believe in what you want - go for it, just don't tell me your belief is any better than Freds, or Sally's. If someone pushes the agenda of recruiting for religion, they should be exposed.

Common ground is what I believe can bridge the gap - love, no war, and world peace for example. I guess I'm still trying how to deal with a blatant brainwashed blind follower that wants to inch their way in because they believe they are doing a god's work.

Avalon should be 100% against religions. Avalon should be 100% for spirituality.

*off soap box* (for a few minutes anyway) :P


Do you see a difference between religion and spirituality?
Spirituality meaning, experience beyond thought.

Religion could be seen as a stepping stone, but as we are humans we tend to be addicted to something or other. If it was not religion, it would be beer, GFL, UFOs, I did it my way.....!



Tony

[Rocky_Shorz]

uh oh, is this Tom Cruz, mad he lost his bride to the Catholics?

he'd be the first to say Scientology isn't a Religion... ;)

[StarDust]

As Marx once said, "religion is the opiate of the masses". Good luck getting the addicts to kick that habit while in 3rd Density;)

[Whiskey_Mystic]

As Marx once said, "religion is the opiate of the masses". Good luck getting the addicts to kick that habit while in 3rd Density;)

Marx was an idiot.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

That's right - it is a lie, a con. A control system.

Jesus lived in my belief. Jesus was a cool cat, and who knows what really happened there? One thing is for sure Jesus was wholly (npi) opposed to religion.

You have been conned. There are some nice parts in scripts - some very wise and loving teachings. That is where it ends. It has been outdated for so long, and has caused just about every war invented (or by proxy) - and it needs to end!

Believe in what you want - go for it, just don't tell me your belief is any better than Freds, or Sally's. If someone pushes the agenda of recruiting for religion, they should be exposed.

Common ground is what I believe can bridge the gap - love, no war, and world peace for example. I guess I'm still trying how to deal with a blatant brainwashed blind follower that wants to inch their way in because they believe they are doing a god's work.

Avalon should be 100% against religions. Avalon should be 100% for spirituality.

*off soap box* (for a few minutes anyway) :P

Your post displays a tremendous ignorance.

If Jesus was so opposed to religion, why did he tell Peter that he would found his church upon him?

There have been many wars fought over the Abrahamic religions. That only covers 54% of the worlds religious believers. When was the last Buddhist, Taoist, or Hindu Crusade? I don't remember the great Shinto war. You are lumping all religions into your very narrow experience.

Most religions do not espouse to be better than others and are not evangelical. Again, it sounds like you are speaking only of Abrahamic monotheism.

Avalon should be 100% against ignorance.

[lyubomir]

Hi Everyone,

All religions are made to create an understanding of the world, what is good or bad and people do not think about it, just follow the instructions... in religions there are good and bad things.

I see that you like Zeitgeist Movement, it's good for me but as everything else it could be turned to something very bad when it becomes powerful, so for me we have to change our understanding of the world, values and needs... then we can start a campaign like this. The whole Project Venus is something wonderful and I hope it will be realized one day on the best possible way...

Religions my friends is the same as the Medecine. In religion spiritual and good people are encouraged to serve a system that makes money, create fear and lots of suffer on this way people with potential are used to serve an institution that have rules... all we know about the Holly Incvision, Bloody crosades... but it's in nearly every institution on the World...

I visited many religious places and in everyone - it's business. I think only the sciences of life like Buddhism and Taoism for something good where people are encouraged to develop their inner power and potential, but I all these science start with creating of an understand and explain the real values...

I see that now most activist on themes like this want to speak about it. It's like a sharing of huge emotional energy and moment of happiness that fill with energy because people find the ultimate solution. But when something start emotional and in a moment when someone doesn't have enough energy or emotions are turned on other way - nothing happens.

That's my opinion :) Be active as much as possible and do it on a smart and wise way to create something good that can remain for centuries.

All the best my friends!

Kind Regards,

Lyubomir

[meeradas]

All organized religion will have to.

[Tony]

We need a boat to get to the other shore, but when we get there, we no longer need the boat....unless we intend to go back and help others. We are all on paths of discovery (“path” means our present confusion regarding our true being) and we have to travel this path alone: no one can do it for us. However, karmically, we rub shoulders for while and can support one another. Then we move on.

We all fear being smothered by organisations and dogma, but what we really fear is our own inability to deal with these situations. There are people who are heavily into organisation, who tend to stuff it full of do's and don'ts...dogma – but we can still work within that set up if we have confidence. What is funny that, while being outside any organisation, we can still be dogmatic! There is a tendency to make religion out of anything: it is merely a stepping stone (or a boat).


Tony

[eni-al]

Its not so much the ideas of religion that is the problem. Its the certain people within it, and that follow it. Many (not all, a minority in comparison) distort it or use it for their personal gain or for others. Some are fairly close minded and arrogant, which is a lethal mix when they also follow a religion, they may be dedicated, no problem, but its when they begin to deny things or believe others what they do is wrong and sin or punishable etc (homosexuality for example). Look at the Westboro Baptist Church for the best example of people who use religion for their very strict somewhat personal beliefs, they want homosexuals and soldiers to burn in hell and delight in a soldiers death and picket the funerals, pretty sick, religion aside.
I don't really know much about any religion in much depth, so can't say there would be no trouble or conflicts between people as a result of following them, but I think there would be substantially less aggression from people if they paid more attention to the teachings. Greed and power thirst will always overpower it though, at all levels.
People will always be separated by something though anyway, if not religion, its skin colour, where you come from, who owns what or who you think should be in charge.

[gs_powered]

To me, religion is nothing but a control system that exploits one of humanity's purest thought form... Faith in something "higher".

At least organised religion, I can't speak for all of them.

[ulli]

Whether a group of people want to worship together or play tennis...
some organization is necessary.
It's about agreeing when and where. Even this forum has organized structure.

Already when someone tells another person that they need to meditate twice a day
you have the beginnings of organized religion.
What I believe has to go is not so much the organization of believers, but the antiquated rituals, and most important, the interpretation of holy text by so-called professionals.

But it isn't going to happen just because a bunch of futurists disagree.
Organized religion is upheld by traditionalists and the majority of those are women,
and women control the education of their children.

If these kids weren't forced to go to church when they are little,
what would they have left to rebel against later on?

[araucaria]

The spiritual component of religion is the morphine of the suffering

[heyokah]

This guy sums it up quite "nicely" .....


"The Horrible Truth about Religion" (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_18.htm)
by Andrew werner



What is the basic purpose of religion?
Religion is designed to focus the people's attention and energy on a single, unchanging, uncompromising and invisible supreme being who allegedly created an inferior human race just for some extra companionship and love for himself and then supposedly foisted a set of oppressive and in some cases arbitrary rules on them, which if broken would be met with unimaginable punishment.



This keeps the followers in a continuing state of fear and compliance. They are afraid to question the intentions of this invisible being and they are afraid of even expressing their own individuality in many cases. Christians and others are taught that they have virtually no power to do anything except pray, worship and do good deeds.



They are taught to practice self denial and are told that their own will is totally irrelevant. Religious followers believe that they are yielding their will over to a benevolent cosmic individual who has single-handedly created the whole universe and has their best interests at heart when in fact they are handing over their will and freedoms to hidden groups of religious elites for the elites own personal gains.

Read more : http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_18.htm

****

The "frustrations" on "The Bible thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35019-the-Bible&p=520404#post520404)" :rolleyes:

****

[Unified Serenity]

An Atheist Defends the Value of Religion

By Bruce Sheiman
author
As an atheist, I approach religion much like an economist. I believe religion persists in our market-based culture, despite the prevalence of secularism, because it provides net value over and above its required investment, and because it beats competing belief systems in the same value proposition. I evaluate religion in terms of its pragmatic usefulness to humankind and seek to answer the question posed by William James: "Grant an idea or belief to be true, what concrete difference will its being true make in anyone's actual life?"

Atheism is a bankrupt ideology on empirical grounds: Its benefits simply do not come close to covering its opportunity costs. Religion, by contrast, offers the vast majority of people a high-value transaction: Its enduring benefits far outweigh its costs. Religion persists, in short, for the reason that it provides the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Thus, by book "An Atheist Defends Religion" is not mainly a critical examination of the New Atheism. Rather, I am making a broad statement about the affirmative role of religion in the contemporary world and what is lost in a purely secular conception of the world.

For centuries, the theism-atheism debate has been dominated by two positions: hard-core believers fervently committed to their faith in a living God; and militant atheists vehemently driven to repudiate the Divine. The time has come to admit that after more than 2,000 years of back-and forth proofs and counter proofs, this debate has reached an insolvable impasse. The question about the existence of God can never be resolved to either side's satisfaction. But the discussion need not end there. We are still left with the important issue of the value of religion. And this is a debate that religion can win. "An Atheist Defends Religion" redefines the terms of the debate, offering a new direction and perspective.

I am not a person of faith: I do not feel the majesty or mystery of the Holy. But neither do I stridently repudiate God. Indeed, there is a part of me that wants to believe in God. That makes me an "aspiring theist." And I want to believe in the Divine because, on balance, religion provides a combination of benefits -- moral, emotional, aesthetic, psychological, existential, communal, and even physical-health -- that no other institution can replicate. These are the essential qualities that make religion so enthralling, enriching, enlightening, and enrapturing. They explain how we achieve our fullest humanity only in religion.

The question I present is not whether God exists, but whether the world is a better place because people believe God exists. This book, as a consequence, is not a defense of God; rather, it is a defense of the belief in God and of religious belief in general.

Being an atheist is not something that I or any one else rationally or deliberately chooses. I did not think through all the competing belief systems and chose unbelief. It is just something that I am. I must admit, however, that the more I understand the world as revealed by science, the more I find the materialist and reductionist explanation for our human destiny terribly devoid of depth, value and meaning. This offends not my religious sensibility (of which I have none), but my existential vanity - the strongly held personal view that my life counts in the grand scheme of things. As a consequence, I am an atheist who is sympathetic to religious aspirations and who is prepared, if not to defend God, then to defend the belief in God.

A mature view holds that religion is more about meaning and purpose than facts and events. Through religion, we experience the mundane as miraculous and the normal as numinous. Religion teaches us that our lives have inherent worth and that the world is shot-through with value. Paul Tillich said, "He who enters the sphere of faith enters the sanctuary of life." And that is because the core preoccupation of religion is the preservation and perpetuation of human existence.

More than any other institution, religion deserves our appreciation and reverence because it has persistently encouraged people to care deeply - for the self, for neighbors, for humanity, and for the natural world - and strive for the highest ideals humans are able to envision. And there is no more eminent ideal than religion's clear declaration of human specialness and the absolute sanctity of life.
Faith is one of the most powerful forces in human development and a strong impetus to personal transformation and collective progress. Religion's misdeeds may make for provocative headlines, but the everyday good works of billions of pious people is the real history of religion, one that parallels the growth and prosperity of humankind. There are countless examples of individuals lifting themselves out of personal misery through faith. In the lives of these people, God is not a delusion, God is not a spell that must be broken - God is indeed great.

The debate about the existence of God is never ending. What is not in dispute is that God exists in people's hearts, minds and spirits. What is not in dispute is that religion is adaptive, constructive and healthful - and thereby makes a positive difference in people's lives. Reflecting James' pragmatic conception of belief: When we act as if religion is true, we act with greater optimism, hope and benevolence.

The take-away from this book is that religious experience is the essential human experience. Mine is a human-centric evaluation of religion. By any empirical measure -- defined in terms of theism's practical impact on individuals, society, and culture -- religion is profoundly beneficial.
In the end, "An Atheist Defends Religion" cogently explains that the most rational and definitive argument for dismissing atheism is not found in the interminable debate over the existence of God, but in elucidating the enduring value of religion itself.

Bruce Sheiman is the author of the new book "An Atheist Defends Religion: Why Humanity is Better Off With Religion than Without It."

[Unified Serenity]

I find this a very odd topic.

1. How are you going to get rid of it?

2. The people who do evil things in the name of a religious sect would what, not do evil things in the name of something else?

It sounds like some of you think if religion were gone all man would be good, but history does not prove that out at all. In fact, the societies that have attempted to remove it were complete failures in the emotional and physical and spiritual wellness of their people. Like it or not, most of us in the world know there is more to life and believe in the Divine. When someone has an extra-ordinary experience it changes their life. I can't think of any religion that was founded by a power mongering evil person just bent on abusing their fellow man and said, "I shall control this stupid people with an idiotic idea like religion".

No, what I think happens is someone has a deeply spiritual experience and their life is changed by it. Their heart, mind and soul connects to the divine and their life becomes a beacon of truth. When you are around such people, they don't have to tell you something wonderful happened to them, it's obvious. They may or may not share what happened, but trust me, word got out as most lived in very close communities and cared about one another. From that the person shares their story. Maybe they continue to have experiences and share them. Eventually, a group forms and the kindred spirit builds. It is only later when someone wants to use that group they join it, and overtake it and little by little they use the power of the group which was created by the groups pious good deeds that people trusted them.

That person would use anything to take over. Then obviously people became kings and queens and learned how valuable manipulating people through religion could be. Those people are just evil people. Man has an intrinsic knowing there is a Divine source. Man instinctively asks, "Where did I come from" or "Why am I here". That won't disappear because religion is gone.

Now for the Judeo-Christian aspect, many have experienced incredible spiritual events and in those events they believe are all true. Some of you come from a wounded Christian background, and I am truly sorry for that. For me it is obvious that just because someone does an evil thing in the name of something, that does not make that something responsible for it. It sort of reminds me of people who say take away all the guns because they kill people. Guns don't do anything but operate. It's the hand holding the gun and pulling the trigger that uses it. What can be used in a negative way can also be used in a positive way, like feeding and protecting your family. Do you really think if we got rid of all guns on the planet there would be no killing of one another? If I remember correctly, we have always had wars and guns are a fairly new invention. What are you going to do take away sticks, knives, pencils, pointy things, heavy things, oh and let me add a more spiritual thing, ostracizing. That's a nice weapon. Many who do not like my views try to do this one, and in fact I have dealt with it my entire life. I have never fit in anywhere. I never could go with the crowd who no matter their leaning seemed to take pleasure in hurting other people. Is it so spiritual to seek to ostracize others to make them conform to the behavior you want? The whole banning and vacationing of people upsets me because the option I would choose is to take their voice away. To moderate their posts when you think they have possibly learned how to share their views without attacking others. Give them a chance to post and if they attack again, just use the mute button while they are having their temper tantrum, and then try again.

I feel I am slightly going off topic now, but the point was that it's about people. People make bad decisions all the time, and the idea of all religion should die is in my opinion very simplistic of a view of the problems in the world. Religion is the outcome of a wonderful divine enlightenment. All religions have to deal with a person who wants to use it to control others, whether we hear about it or not. It's human nature unfortunately.

[Eagle Eye]

Avalon should be 100% against ignorance.

Quoting this one....

[Arpheus]

Oh my here we go again last time i decided to post my opinion view on this,i got my post edited by an admin,and mind you was the first time that ever happened to any of my posts in my 2 years as an avalon member.From now on i wont speak about it anymore.

[Unified Serenity]

Oh my here we go again last time i decided to post my opinion view on this,i got my post edited by an admin,and mind you was the first time that ever happened to any of my posts in my 2 years as an avalon member.From now on i wont speak about it anymore.

You already are. Might as well just say we hurt your feelings and speak your heart within the guidelines of the forum. I am never offended by people politely sharing their heart and views. I understand we all err, I certainly do, but it's in the spirit of expression we tend to judge another. I would like to hear what you think and why you think it, and may I express for Avalon as a sincere member, I do apologize for your spirit being hurt, and I hope we can move forward.


*edit: i am saying "for Avalon" simply as a member and representative. I am sure there are plenty who would express things differently, but this is my way of expressing my views on this issue.

[Arpheus]

I love you Serenity you are a wonderful human being!!

[Unified Serenity]

I love you Serenity you are a wonderful human being!!

Thank you Arpheus, that is very kind of you to say. You are a wonderful human being as well, and I do look forward to hearing what you have to say when you are ready to share it.

[Feren]

I don't like religion either, and by religon I mean organized belief systems that claim to be absolutely true. I dislike anything that gives truth for granted (even science does it sometimes). But the fact that I dislike religions doesn't mean that I believe they SHOULD dissapear. I don't believe they should disappear as well as I don't believe they sheould continue to exist. Why would I believe one thing or the other? I only find life as necessary; if in someone's vision religion is a medium of life, so be it, not my choice.
Maybe we have to stop fighting "evil" actively and just do good.

[Arrowwind]

That's right - it is a lie, a con. A control system.

Jesus lived in my belief. Jesus was a cool cat, and who knows what really happened there? One thing is for sure Jesus was wholly (npi) opposed to religion.

You have been conned. There are some nice parts in scripts - some very wise and loving teachings. That is where it ends. It has been outdated for so long, and has caused just about every war invented (or by proxy) - and it needs to end!

Believe in what you want - go for it, just don't tell me your belief is any better than Freds, or Sally's. If someone pushes the agenda of recruiting for religion, they should be exposed.

Common ground is what I believe can bridge the gap - love, no war, and world peace for example. I guess I'm still trying how to deal with a blatant brainwashed blind follower that wants to inch their way in because they believe they are doing a god's work.

Avalon should be 100% against religions. Avalon should be 100% for spirituality.

*off soap box* (for a few minutes anyway) :P

So you are a Zeitgeist supporter? I wonder how after supporting that movie you could even insinuate that Jesus was a real "cat"

Zeigeist attempts to undermind the supposed "true history" of Jesus. I accept most of its premise as close to the truth.
But I agree with what United Serenity has presented, without religion we would likely be in a much more dire situation than we are currently in
for man has had little faith in himself to be spiritually independent. Its a big scary world after all and most dont know that all the answers lie within
so they perpetually look outside of themselves to create a wall of protection.

But I also feel that we are collectivley on the precipus of jumping off the religion cliff into the wonderful and unknown void of human exploration into our own self revelation.
When we do that we start to realize that god is not outside of ourselves but with in us and the Jesus manefestion is a potential for all. We are all the "sons of man" and hence hold the potential reality to be living gods. Even some Catholic priests are saying stuff like this now.

In that bible they say "these things you shall do and even greater things"
I believe that. I have seen it and experienced it.
Its hard to get there
within the confines of religion and all is rules and laws,
all its shame and admonishment
all its tendency to make you wrong.

You have to leap into your freedom.

If you leap into your freedom
it doesnt matter anymore what religion you belong to
for you see the truth in them all
and you see the prision of them all
and the world of spirital doctrine
and rules and laws no longer has a hold on you
and you clearly see the bondage that others reside in

yet you stay where you are
for you realize that the bondage is the same
no matter where you look, no matter what,
so you start your work from where you reside,
within your own religion
within yoiur own self,
right where you stand
where you have always stood
for it really doesnt matter
to a free person
what type of prison they appear to stand in
for all prisons are illusion
once freedom is yours.

[D-Day]

Questions are great, answers... even more so ;)

1. Would human beings still be SPIRITual if religious systems/constructs had never been "introduced" into our society/culture?

2. Do externally created systems/constructs [like religions] truly help human beings to become more SPIRITual?

3. How is religion relevant/necessary/useful/productive in terms of modern day human society/culture?

4. Do religious systems/constructs have the potential to inadvertently [or intentionally] diminish an individual's state of self awareness, self authority, or personal sovereignty?

5. Is it possible that today's religions are little more than human constructs designed and implemented by our controllers for the purpose of programming, conditioning, manipulating, influencing, and/or controlling large segments of the human collective consciousness?

6. Historically, how has humanity benefited from the existence of religious systems/constructs?

7. Alternatively, how much has humanity suffered either directly or indirectly as a result of the existence of religious systems/constructs?

8. Who/what was responsible for creating the religions that currently exist in modern human society/culture?

9. Historically, thinking in terms of power/control/influence, who has benefited most from the existence of religious constructs, systems, ideologies, extremism, and fundamentalism?

[heyokah]

Man has an intrinsic knowing there is a Divine source. Man instinctively asks, "Where did I come from" or "Why am I here". That won't disappear because religion is gone
Thanks Unified Serenity.

I've not been brought-up with any religion, nor have I had the urge to belong to any.
So I can read the Bible with an open mind, as well as books on Humanism, Sjamanism, Buddhism or Native American wisdom, to mention a few.

I don't feel anything for organized Religions. as they have been the cause of too much hate, fear and deaths. Christians, Jews and Muslims, they are and will always be fighting each-other.
Who's god is the best (or the least evil) one ?.....

Does this make me an atheist?

The God of Unconditional Love, the Cathars called him/her Amor, has been "weeping" for ages. Hardly anybody listens.
It almost seems Amor doesn't live here anymore.

The Creator God lives through me though .... without Religion ....just as he/she lives through all and everything.

It seems that Religions have their own gods.

[Beren]

That's right - it is a lie, a con. A control system.

Jesus lived in my belief. Jesus was a cool cat, and who knows what really happened there? One thing is for sure Jesus was wholly (npi) opposed to religion.

You have been conned. There are some nice parts in scripts - some very wise and loving teachings. That is where it ends. It has been outdated for so long, and has caused just about every war invented (or by proxy) - and it needs to end!

Believe in what you want - go for it, just don't tell me your belief is any better than Freds, or Sally's. If someone pushes the agenda of recruiting for religion, they should be exposed.

Common ground is what I believe can bridge the gap - love, no war, and world peace for example. I guess I'm still trying how to deal with a blatant brainwashed blind follower that wants to inch their way in because they believe they are doing a god's work.

Avalon should be 100% against religions. Avalon should be 100% for spirituality.

*off soap box* (for a few minutes anyway) :P

So you are a Zeitgeist supporter? I wonder how after supporting that movie you could even insinuate that Jesus was a real "cat"

Zeigeist attempts to undermind the supposed "true history" of Jesus. I accept most of its premise as close to the truth.
But I agree with what United Serenity has presented, without religion we would likely be in a much more dire situation than we are currently in
for man has had little faith in himself to be spiritually independent. Its a big scary world after all and most dont know that all the answers lie within
so they perpetually look outside of themselves to create a wall of protection.

But I also feel that we are collectivley on the precipus of jumping off the religion cliff into the wonderful and unknown void of human exploration into our own self revelation.
When we do that we start to realize that god is not outside of ourselves but with in us and the Jesus manefestion is a potential for all. We are all the "sons of man" and hence hold the potential reality to be living gods. Even some Catholic priests are saying stuff like this now.

In that bible they say "these things you shall do and even greater things"
I believe that. I have seen it and experienced it.
Its hard to get there
within the confines of religion and all is rules and laws,
all its shame and admonishment
all its tendency to make you wrong.

You have to leap into your freedom.

If you leap into your freedom
it doesnt matter anymore what religion you belong to
for you see the truth in them all
and you see the prision of them all
and the world of spirital doctrine
and rules and laws no longer has a hold on you
and you clearly see the bondage that others reside in

yet you stay where you are
for you realize that the bondage is the same
no matter where you look, no matter what,
so you start your work from where you reside,
within your own religion
within yoiur own self,
right where you stand
where you have always stood
for it really doesnt matter
to a free person
what type of prison they appear to stand in
for all prisons are illusion
once freedom is yours.


Bless you for your words!

These are my soul's words and knowledge too.
This is what I am speaking on every thread that I write in.

I get sometimes a brand or a stamp as religionist or other terms but my message is always simple, freedom in God and Christ.
Anyways we're called to be free but it depends upon our choice...

[Praxis]

Your post displays a tremendous ignorance.

If Jesus was so opposed to religion, why did he tell Peter that he would found his church upon him?

There have been many wars fought over the Abrahamic religions. That only covers 54% of the worlds religious believers. When was the last Buddhist, Taoist, or Hindu Crusade? I don't remember the great Shinto war. You are lumping all religions into your very narrow experience.

Most religions do not espouse to be better than others and are not evangelical. Again, it sounds like you are speaking only of Abrahamic monotheism.

Avalon should be 100% against ignorance.

You are assuming that Peter is telling the truth about this. What do you think it means to betray someone? Did Judas really betray jesus, or just play his part in the whole game(leaving aside the material from I think peter levenda talking about how Christ and Judas conspired to have a fall guy for the cross which is why the apostles denied him)?
Betrayal requires a countering of intent. If jesus was to be crucified as part of GOD's plan then Judas did not betray. So who really betrayed Jesus? Even in the bible Jesus repeatedly says things like " OMFG you morons are not getting, HERE IT IS AGAIN"

Dont hold Buddhist up on the pedastool. They have done some terrible things in Tibet. There are also Buddhist sects that do fight, supposedly they guard the Queen of England. All the eastern religions have had disciples that have also done atrocious things. The difference is western people do not learn about that part of the worlds history.

But blaming religion is the easy way. The real issue here is the people who follow the religions, most of the time improperly(LOL Christians being ok with ANY violence perpetuated by the state or other christians for that matter.)

Is it Christianity that is wrong with the country? No it is the people who are not compassionate and can not think beyond themselves or their thoughts.

Here it is. Brace yourselves the answer is coming: All small minded, self righteous, bigoted, hateful, greedy, malevolent people of this world should be required to go deep into themselves with the aid of some sort of Hallucinogen and a spiritual master. They should take a trip with the Ayahuascaros(sp). Shedding the ego is the most important thing. Some can do this without the aid of outside chemical substances. Others require a more firm hand. Joe Rogan once had an idea for a show called Douchebags on Mushrooms. I think he was on to something

[RMorgan]

Hey folks,

In my humble opinion, as an agnostic, I think all religions do is packing beliefs as truths.

The fact is that nobody actually knows who created us (if someone actually intentionally created us), why we were created, if this supposed creator actually cares about us at all, etc...

We just don´t know anything significative about the complexity of the universe and creation.

Religions are purely speculative; nothing more than that.

Personally, I can live quite well with the idea that I don´t know a lot of things.

For those who can´t live with the "I don´t know" idea, just pick a religion and then pretend to know the answers; It´s ok if it makes one feel better, really, as long as he doesn´t try to shove his religious "truths" down my throat.

Cheers,

Raf.

[NancyV]

Here it is. Brace yourselves the answer is coming: All small minded, self righteous, bigoted, hateful, greedy, malevolent people of this world should be required to go deep into themselves with the aid of some sort of Hallucinogen and a spiritual master. They should take a trip with the Ayahuascaros(sp). Shedding the ego is the most important thing. Some can do this without the aid of outside chemical substances. Others require a more firm hand. Joe Rogan once had an idea for a show called Douchebags on Mushrooms. I think he was on to something
Thanks! That was awesome! I can't stop laughing about Douchebags on Mushrooms! :rofl: :rockon:

[StarDust]

As Marx once said, "religion is the opiate of the masses". Good luck getting the addicts to kick that habit while in 3rd Density;)

Marx was an idiot.

Regardless of your personal view of Marx, it does not make his statement any less true.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


All organized religion will have to.

And they will once the veil has been lifted within 4th Density.

[Cartomancer]

Religion has become less of a spiritual pursuit and more groups of people with similar or taught values banding together to make politically viable entities. As time goes by any spiritual aspects are put in the back seat in order to simply maintain the survival of the group. Alternately if everyone simply formed their own faith there would always be groups like secret societies or other religions that would band together just to subjugate all of the individual free thinkers. That is a sad aspect of human nature.

In a way complaining about this is like being sad that the sky is blue because there isn't really anything you can do about it except keep on believing what you believe and being happy. There will always be those that have to validate their faith by debunking others faith as well.

[goinghome2012]

the next religion is the the religion of unconditional love, unity, oneness, cooperation, peace, truth, joy and bliss, abundance

transcend all belief system and embrace the truth of the universe; unconditional love and divine light

it is almost complete

[Tony]

All Humans hold onto something as a comfort blanket...and the main thing they hold onto is ideas about themselves, and what they think!

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! :banplease:

Tony

[Whiskey_Mystic]

As Marx once said, "religion is the opiate of the masses". Good luck getting the addicts to kick that habit while in 3rd Density;)

Marx was an idiot.

Regardless of your personal view of Marx, it does not make his statement any less true.





The statement is simply not true. Throughout history, religion has been used to pacify populations. It has also been used to fire rebellions. Are suicide bombers pacified? Controlled, yes, but not pacified. The Romans certainly didn't think that religion was an opiate. They saw it as a primary threat of rebellion. How about Ireland? Religious rebellions are evident throughout history.

People like to quote Marx because it sounds authoritative. But Marx was an idiot.

[Billy]

Maybe one day there will be no religions, but in the meantime we live with them around our world. would it not be of more beneficial to assist in breaking down the divisions between religions other than hating them.

There are some gems of truths within all religions if you take the time to study.

I embrace them all.

peace

[Tarka the Duck]

As Marx once said, "religion is the opiate of the masses". Good luck getting the addicts to kick that habit while in 3rd Density;)

Preceding that phrase, Marx wrote that religion is:
" ...the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation"
so he didn't have THAT big a problem with it!

And these days, surely it's more relevant to say that spectator sports/soap operas/Facebook/celebrity magazines are the opiate of the people...

I may have missed it, but has anyone here actually defined what they mean by "religion"? Is it meant in the sense that there a prerequisite for a belief in a creator-being of some sort? Or in the broader sense of a personal belief system? Or in the sense of an organisation prescribing behaviour and setting up cultural activities?

We would only know if the world would be a better place without religion if there was a society that had never been exposed in any way to religion.

Is there such a place for us to examine? A religious-free state that has developed and evolved organically - not somewhere where the freedom to practise religion has been forcibly suppressed, religious belief has been eradicated or has lost its popularity. As far as I know (which isn't very far...) all indigenous peoples have what would be termed religious beliefs.

[ghostrider]

religion and the jews/high priest killed jesus. it didn't stop the belief in a better life, it spread like wild fire. you aint gonna stop an idea in a better way to live by ridding the world of religion. as was said here already = religion as a stepping stone on the path to something better. Let go of your anger, it only clouds the mind ... remember your an immortal soul , this life is just a temporary stop on a longer journey friend ...

[StarDust]

As Marx once said, "religion is the opiate of the masses". Good luck getting the addicts to kick that habit while in 3rd Density;)

Marx was an idiot.

Regardless of your personal view of Marx, it does not make his statement any less true.





The statement is simply not true. Throughout history, religion has been used to pacify populations. It has also been used to fire rebellions. Are suicide bombers pacified? Controlled, yes, but not pacified. The Romans certainly didn't think that religion was an opiate. They saw it as a primary threat of rebellion. How about Ireland? Religious rebellions are evident throughout history.

People like to quote Marx because it sounds authoritative. But Marx was an idiot.

What you view as "truth" is merely a point of view. If not, a 'truth' would be universal without any disagreement. Clearly the statement has struck nerve with you. The statements inclusion in this discussion was not intended to be authoritative in spite of your emotional response to it. It is merely another point of view and may represent "truth" to some but clearly not to others.

You are welcome to view religion any way you desire. Conversely, I have never interpreted this statement to mean that pacification is it's only effect; although that is a narrow way of interpreting what an opiate does to the body. My view is that organized religion creates ideological blinders for most as a control mechanism to dismiss what is being done in this life-time with the illusion that one will be rewarded in the next; and thus has opiate-like effects.

I found the following to provide some reasonable background into Marx's thinking on the topic:


Karl Marx on Religion
Is Religion the Opiate of the Masses?

By Austin Cline,

This quote is reproduced a great deal and is probably the only Marx quote that most people are familiar with. Unfortunately, if someone is familiar with it they are likely only familiar with a small portion that, taken by itself, tends to give a distorted impression of what Marx had to say about religion.

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.

Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

Usually all one gets from the above is “Religion is the opium of the people“ (with no ellipses to indicate that something has been removed). Sometimes “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature“ is included. If you compare these with the full quotation, it’s clear that a great deal more is being said than what most people are aware of.

In the above quotation Marx is saying that religion’s purpose is to create illusory fantasies for the poor. Economic realities prevent them from finding true happiness in this life, so religion tells them that this is OK because they will find true happiness in the next life. Although this is a criticism of religion, Marx is not without sympathy: people are in distress and religion provides solace, just as people who are physically injured receive relief from opiate-based drugs.

The quote is not, then, as negative as most portray (at least about religion). In some ways, even the slightly extended quote which people might see is a bit dishonest because saying “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature...” deliberately leaves out the additional statement that it is also the “heart of a heartless world.”

What we have is a critique of society that has become heartless rather than of religion which tries to provide a bit of solace. One can argue that Marx offers a partial validation of religion in that it tries to become the heart of a heartless world. For all its problems, religion doesn’t matter so much — it is not the real problem. Religion is a set of ideas, and ideas are expressions of material realities. Religion is a symptom of a disease, not the disease itself.

Still, it would be a mistake to think that Marx is uncritical towards religion — it may try to provide heart, but it fails. For Marx, the problem lies in the obvious fact that an opiate drug fails to fix a physical injury — it merely helps you forget pain and suffering. This may be fine up to a point, but only as long as you are also trying to solve the underlying problems causing the pain. Similarly, religion does not fix the underlying causes of people’s pain and suffering — instead, it helps them forget why they are suffering and gets them to look forward to an imaginary future when the pain will cease.

Even worse, this “drug” is administered by the same oppressors who are responsible for the pain and suffering in the first place. Religion is an expression of more fundamental unhappiness and symptom of more fundamental and oppressive economic realities. Hopefully, humans will create a society in which the economic conditions causing so much pain and suffering would be eradicated and, therefore, the need for soothing drugs like religion will cease. Of course, for Marx such a turn of events isn’t to be “hoped for” because human history was leading inevitably towards it.

So, in spite of his obvious dislike of and anger towards religion, Marx did not make religion the primary enemy of workers and communists, regardless of what might have been done by 20th century communists. Had Marx regarded religion as a more serious enemy, he would have devoted more time to it in his writings. Instead, he focused on economic and political structures that in his mind served to oppress people.

For this reason, some Marxists could be sympathetic to religion. Karl Kautsky, in his Foundations of Christianity, wrote that early Christianity was, in some respects, a proletarian revolution against privileged Roman oppressors. In Latin America, some Catholic theologians have used Marxist categories to frame their critique of economic injustice, resulting in “liberation theology.”

Marx’s relationship with and ideas about religion are more complex than most realize. Marx’s analysis of religion has flaws, but despite them his perspective is worth taking seriously. Specifically, he argues that religion is not so much an independent “thing” in society but, rather, a reflection or creation of other, more fundamental “things” like economic relationships. That’s not the only way of looking at religion, but it can provide some interesting illumination on the social roles that religion plays.

http://atheism.about.com/od/weeklyquotes/a/marx01.htm

[Whiskey_Mystic]

What you view as "truth" is merely a point of view.

"Reality is subjective" is always the final argument of someone who does not want to examine how wrong they are. This is your ego trying to find an unassailable position.


If not, a 'truth' would be universal without any disagreement.

Disagreement has nothing to do with what is true and what is not. I would think you would know that.


Clearly the statement has struck nerve with you.

This is a projection on your part.


The statements inclusion in this discussion was not intended to be authoritative in spite of your emotional response to it.

I think that it clearly was and your classification of my response is more projection. You project a lot, do you know that?



It is merely another point of view and may represent "truth" to some but clearly not to others.

Truth exists separate from perception.


You are welcome to view religion any way you desire. Conversely, I have never interpreted this statement to mean that pacification is it's only effect; although that is a narrow way of interpreting what an opiate does to the body. My view is that organized religion creates ideological blinders for most as a control mechanism and thus has opiate-like effects.

This is simply lawyer-speak redefining what Marx meant in order to defend your position. Anyone who who has studied Marx knows very well that he was referring to pacification. I know it and you know it.

Stardust, thank you for trying to argue with me just for the sake of arguing. Although I find it entertaining, I suggest that you get some practice at it if you are going to continue trying to "win" instead of considering where you might be wrong. You are not very good at defending your position just for the sake of ego, so put that aside and see what can be gained. Stop worrying about who you think you are. It is your prison.

[StarDust]

Whisky,

Your pseudo psychoanalytic responses are always good for a laugh or two. There is no ego here, as you put it, as I am fundamentally neutral on the topic. I didn't grow up with any form of indoctrination. I was wisely given the choice by my mother to pursue any direction once I saw fit to do so. I see religion as being useful to some people's lives and worthless to others. Since I don't have any skin in the game one way or another, I personally couldn't care less what happens to religion over time although I don't see it withstanding the true test of time.

Once the veil is lifted, it will become crystal clear how organized religion has been used to control people. Once revealed, it will be the choice of the individual to determine if they wish to remain in the illusion or to move beyond it.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

I may have missed it, but has anyone here actually defined what they mean by "religion"?

I have done this on several threads. We seem to have this conversation every four months or so. It does not seem to accomplish much. It is fashionable to denounce all religion based on experiences and perceptions of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. All religion is this. All religion is that. George Carlin said it so it must be true. Foolishness.

I propose that there is a difference between religion itself and religious institutions. Institutions are inherently political and have agendas. They are composed of people and so subject, as all human constructs, to corruption. There is, even so, a wealth of wisdom embodied in every religion that I have studied. These are treasures. Guidelines and pathways for those that need and desire them. Not for you? That's fine, but some people do find them useful and who are we to decide for them which path to take?

"There are many paths up the Mountain, but the view of the moon from the top is the same." -Ancient Japanese Proverb

[778 neighbour of some guy]

As Marx once said, "religion is the opiate of the masses". Good luck getting the addicts to kick that habit while in 3rd Density;)

Marx was an idiot.

Marx did not have a problem with being the peoples messiah either so as far as him saying religion is the opiate for the masses, he became quite a big dealer himself and did quite well for a good while, he was defenitely one of the homies of his day and ****ed up a few continents, just like religion did, does, and will keep doing for as long as they can get away with it.

XwFLgBKK6ug

And the Slayer version of this clip is even better.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Hey folks,

In my humble opinion, as an agnostic, I think all religions do is packing beliefs as truths.

The fact is that nobody actually knows who created us (if someone actually intentionally created us), why we were created, if this supposed creator actually cares about us at all, etc...

We just don´t know anything significative about the complexity of the universe and creation.

Religions are purely speculative; nothing more than that.

Personally, I can live quite well with the idea that I don´t know a lot of things.

For those who can´t live with the "I don´t know" idea, just pick a religion and then pretend to know the answers; It´s ok if it makes one feel better, really, as long as he doesn´t try to shove his religious "truths" down my throat.

Cheers,

Raf.

Some religions actually espouse that you explore an idea and decide what is true and what is false for yourself based on your own experience and insight. Also, not all religions are concerned with creation myths or whether or not a divine entity exists. Oh, and not all religions are interested in shoving their beliefs down your throat, either. Many teach that whatever you believe is fine. Again, I make the point that if we are going to make blanket statements about all religions, we should know first what we are talking about.

"Believe nothing, O monks, merely because you have been told it or because it is traditional, or because you yourselves have imagined it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings, that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide."
-Buddha

[Tony]

Why stop at religion?

[Beren]

Hey folks,

In my humble opinion, as an agnostic, I think all religions do is packing beliefs as truths.

The fact is that nobody actually knows who created us (if someone actually intentionally created us), why we were created, if this supposed creator actually cares about us at all, etc...

We just don´t know anything significative about the complexity of the universe and creation.

Religions are purely speculative; nothing more than that.

Personally, I can live quite well with the idea that I don´t know a lot of things.

For those who can´t live with the "I don´t know" idea, just pick a religion and then pretend to know the answers; It´s ok if it makes one feel better, really, as long as he doesn´t try to shove his religious "truths" down my throat.

Cheers,

Raf.

Some religions actually espouse that you explore an idea and decide what is true and what is false for yourself based on your own experience and insight. Also, not all religions are concerned with creation myths or whether or not a divine entity exists. Oh, and not all religions are interested in shoving their beliefs down your throat, either. Many teach that whatever you believe is fine. Again, I make the point that if we are going to make blanket statements about all religions, we should know first what we are talking about.

"Believe nothing, O monks, merely because you have been told it or because it is traditional, or because you yourselves have imagined it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings, that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide."
-Buddha


Or " test every spirit " -Bible.
So we can know from which stand point it comes- fear or love.

[Krullenjongen]

Why stop at religion?
Wow, provocative question!
But you are right to question where this would lead to (if that was your intention)
Because you can't kill religion without getting rid of the religious people.....

[Tony]

Why stop at religion?
Wow, provocative question!
But you are right to question where this would lead to (if that was your intention)
Because you can't kill religion without getting rid of the religious people.....

If we gave up clinging to 'things' we'd be happier. We the humans are the problem, we make a religion out of anything. Even going down the pub, you have to lean on the bar a certain way, drink several pints, do not sip-swallow, wee a lot, scratch under-carriage, and pontificate about everything.

But this does depend on the individuals. Even in eastern monasteries there are those that study and practice esoteric teachings, those that chant and do the rituals, those that organise and those that sweep up.

It all depends on what one wants and can cope with....sweeping is the best!

[Feren]

Do you know what really bothers me? All that 'should', 'must' and 'know' bull****. You (me, everyone) know nothing, have no ultimate truth about nothing and have no right to tell anyone about their basic values. You can tell me that 4+4 equals 8, because I don't own mathematics. But you can't tell anyone about right and wrong without the basis of their agreement.
I'm not saying "reallity is subjective", which would be absolutely passionate or stupid, but I'm saying that ALL PERCEPTION IS SUBJECTIVE, and that's a basic value, not only a belief like "4+4=8".
Sorry if I sound rude, it's just a thought.

[watchZEITGEISTnow]

MeSSwKffj9o
3ky0ml2ZNHg

n9YzOkxB-Gc

PxsGyljd6B0

h4_lIOfQDyk

wVU3e6t0kfk

qcU0tDUafwk
:cool:

[kreagle]

That's right - it is a lie, a con. A control system.

Jesus lived in my belief. Jesus was a cool cat, and who knows what really happened there? One thing is for sure Jesus was wholly (npi) opposed to religion.

You have been conned. There are some nice parts in scripts - some very wise and loving teachings. That is where it ends. It has been outdated for so long, and has caused just about every war invented (or by proxy) - and it needs to end!

Believe in what you want - go for it, just don't tell me your belief is any better than Freds, or Sally's. If someone pushes the agenda of recruiting for religion, they should be exposed.

Common ground is what I believe can bridge the gap - love, no war, and world peace for example. I guess I'm still trying how to deal with a blatant brainwashed blind follower that wants to inch their way in because they believe they are doing a god's work.

Avalon should be 100% against religions. Avalon should be 100% for spirituality.

*off soap box* (for a few minutes anyway) :P

Your post displays a tremendous ignorance.

If Jesus was so opposed to religion, why did he tell Peter that he would found his church upon him?

There have been many wars fought over the Abrahamic religions. That only covers 54% of the worlds religious believers. When was the last Buddhist, Taoist, or Hindu Crusade? I don't remember the great Shinto war. You are lumping all religions into your very narrow experience.

Most religions do not espouse to be better than others and are not evangelical. Again, it sounds like you are speaking only of Abrahamic monotheism.

Avalon should be 100% against ignorance


Whiskey_Mystic,



Avalon should be 100% against ignorance


I concur with you, completely, my friend. Furthermore, I would like to believe, and do, that "most" Avalonians, here, feel the same way also!

Just because one has failed to "properly study and rightly divide", the Word of God,....it does not mean that "all" religion is faulty and unreliable. I, too, have readily recognized that there is a tremendous amount of "religious bunk" out there,.....but that, in no way, has,......(or is).....going to hinder me from pursuing and obtaining the "true religion" that is still available, even today!

"Religion" can be defined as either being,.....acceptable to God,.....OR.....unacceptable to God.


example......


James 1:26-27
King James Version (KJV)

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.


Unaccepted Religion- in verse 26,... we see that because of the "deceitfulness of man's own heart,....there will be "proceedings",..."ideas",....that will be emitted from him that will be "unacceptable to God",....hence a "vain religion"!


Accepted Religion- in verse 27,....this passage defines for us the role,...and the requirements, one must be willing to obey, in order for his "religion", (pure and undefiled), to be "acceptable to God".


Now, with this "line of thinking",....(directly from the Word of God),....how intelligent would it be to,....now.....destroy, or kill,......*ALL* Religion?,......., including the "acceptable to God" portion?


Even I, kreagle,...(to the surprise of many),...do "not" have a desire to "take matters in my own hand",.....and kill, or, eliminate,......the "unaccepted religion"!! (note: "As bad as I despise some of the "complete garbage" that is offered today in the name of "religion",.....I am convinced that it is the "will of God" to,....."leave it all alone",....."good and bad"! I genuinely believe that "this",.....("religion" as it is),.....is another "mechanism", specifically placed by God,....in an effort to "give us all a choice",......and to find our where "our heart" really is!)


Choose wisely, my fellow Avalonians,......your servant,.....kreagle

[Cartomancer]

I believe that the reference point for most of if not all modern religion is the mystery schools. As such all of the concepts are meant to be metaphorical and interpreted by each individual based on what they have learned and know. Its up to you to dig in and make of it what you will. Its there as a kind of vision quest that you identify with.

[Arrowwind]

[Some religions actually espouse that you explore an idea and decide what is true and what is false for yourself based on your own experience and insight. Also, not all religions are concerned with creation myths or whether or not a divine entity exists. Oh, and not all religions are interested in shoving their beliefs down your throat, either. Many teach that whatever you believe is fine. Again, I make the point that if we are going to make blanket statements about all religions, we should know first what we are talking about.

I]

No not all are interested in shoving their beliefs down your throat, but certainly most... and those who say you must explore and decide for yourself often have an attidude of self righteous superiority.

[taurad]

As Marx once said, "religion is the opiate of the masses". Good luck getting the addicts to kick that habit while in 3rd Density;)

Marx was an idiot.

with all due respect for u, this claim of yours' pretty naive, probably un uneducated guess...

Marx was all BUT an idiot

check Marx and Satan, for a start

cheers friend