How we are confused.

[Tony]

How we are confused.

We are confused by holding two ideas at the same time, which in fact cannot be done!
It's George Orwell's doublethink or doublespeak.

It's like being told 'They landed on the Moon and they didn't land on the Moon'. It has the mind running every which way. That's what happens on forums and the news. The information is never complete, just a suggestion, and off we go ….again!

This happens in spiritual talk as well, “Is there a me, or isn't there?”

We can take any subject or symbol and turn it around, superimpose, turn upside down and find geometry and meaning. But this still keeps us bound up in confusion.

Everything is a twist in the mind. Different cultures have different twists, and influences, so trying to solve a problem in the physical world is bound to cause confusion....it's meant to!

The idea of 'Oneness' is created to cause confusion, that we are all one. It's not going to happen, never has, and never will. This only serves for people to continue fighting among themselves. There has never ever been 'Oneness'. This is a distraction from understanding the unity of relative and absolute truth...there one could say oneness, but it's not the same as what is being promoted.

The whole point of a self imposed prison planet is CONFUSION! When we are confused we govern ourselves by pulling in all directions, this very reaction maintains this poison prison.

Inform one another, don't argue. Explain you position on a matter, and allow others to have a different view, because their culture is different. If you can clarify that would be wonderful, then we are getting somewhere.

We have to stop trying to be clever, and all knowing.
We 'are' clever and all knowing, in our own world.

If we play other people's games, we will never know all the rules. Our unique Knowing, will have a similar aspect to a few others, and we can be guided by similar methods, but the outcome will be unique.

Unity in diversity, is logical.:kiss:


Tony


PS. Old Art masters who were taught the same tradition skills of painting, all turn out unique and different. It is the same with Spiritual teacher.

[Maia Gabrial]

Thank you for those insightful words, pie'n'eal. They totally resonated with me because I FINALLY figured all that out by myself.... :becky:
It IS difficult to hold onto to contradicting ideas. (I'll use the word ideas to describe philosophies, beliefs and stuff, okay?)...

It drove me nuts when I had ideas and other people's ideas seemingly contradicted them. Up until about 10 years ago, I truly believed that everyone knew more than me, so I trusted what they said; even though I still had my own ideas. However, that's why I was always in turmoil and confusion. It seemed like I was always asking myself, "What do I believe now? Who's right?"
My biggest growth came from trusting my higher guidance for answers. It hasn't let me down yet. ButI have to admit that I'll always listen to new ideas and see how they resonate with me and my inner guidance.....

[DeDukshyn]

I don't believe the idea of "oneness" was created to cause confusion ... let me guess the CIA created that too just like they created "new age" lol ... ;) ;) ;)

More seriously though, the idea of oneness can cause confusion when there are no distinctions of what that means. "oneness" can mean many different things to many different people - herein lies the confusion - it is the attachment to the preconceived label of "oneness" and not the concept of "oneness" that causes confusion.

If I define oneness as a consistent regard to the whole as opposed to self when making decisions or taking actions - one can agree with that concept or not because I have removed the confusion caused by the label and made a distinction toward my meaning. It is language that is flawed, yet this can be overcome with the correct use of language, as I just demonstrated.

;)

[Tony]

I have met many people who believe in oneness as, we are all part of a whole.
That is just their interpretation.

They get a little aggressive if one says anything counter wise.
I used to be involved in Bhakti yoga, and one was bathed in the sugar of 'oneness'.

[Kelly]

Thank you for those insightful words, pie'n'eal. They totally resonated with me because I FINALLY figured all that out by myself.... :becky:
It IS difficult to hold onto to contradicting ideas. (I'll use the word ideas to describe philosophies, beliefs and stuff, okay?)...

It drove me nuts when I had ideas and other people's ideas seemingly contradicted them. Up until about 10 years ago, I truly believed that everyone knew more than me, so I trusted what they said; even though I still had my own ideas. However, that's why I was always in turmoil and confusion. It seemed like I was always asking myself, "What do I believe now? Who's right?"
My biggest growth came from trusting my higher guidance for answers. It hasn't let me down yet. ButI have to admit that I'll always listen to new ideas and see how they resonate with me and my inner guidance.....

I like this, this is similar to what i have experienced within myself too :)

[ulli]

Unity in Diversity is the art of holding two apparent opposites in balance.
It was a term already used in ancient times, in Taoism.
The Bahai Faith made it a slogan in 1938.
There is always much debate about it in Baha'i communities as it really is not that easily maintained.

Unity without uniformity, diversity without fragmentation.

[Kelly]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/cognitive_dissonance.htm

[Spiral]

http://www.simplypsychology.org/cognitive-dissonance.jpg

The more normal result would be illness.

This plays out at so many levels, parents that tell you tell you things that aren't true as a child but you have to act as if they are, then it happens at school, the TV does it too.

Then you enter the world of work where modern management culture & NLP will push anyone who doesn't die inside over the edge.

This is why so many people are having breakdowns these days, you can program the mind with all kinds of stuff, from my mother is wonderful to Kill Mr X however the spirit will always try to put you straight, and this can cause real heartache, as well as physical & psychological problems.

[DeDukshyn]

I have met many people who believe in oneness as, we are all part of a whole.
That is just their interpretation.

They get a little aggressive if one says anything counter wise.
I used to be involved in Bhakti yoga, and one was bathed in the sugar of 'oneness'.

Once again ... that would have to be explained in real-time within the context it was intended by the speaker before unprejudiced judgement can occur. Again, the issue is that "we are a part of whole" is not clearly defined. So you can disagree with that but without knowing exactly what is meant, the judgement is biased based on the assumption that your understanding is the same as everyone else's.

This issue is not with the concepts but the labels that assume generalizations. The problem is in the language -- not in who is "right or wrong". We've been playing the right and wrong game for thousands of years because few realize the issue lies in the lack of the correct use of language.

Whenever one is using a concept to define something abstract (such as in the case being exampled), two things must happen for it to be successful: the speaker must declare, define and make distinct, the context and the meaning, and the listener must agree that those are the parameters in which to base the understanding. Without this process we merely get confusing generalizations and misunderstandings.

[Kelly]

In one way, we are all one, ie; we are all connected, but we are not all one.
We are all part of this thing called humanity, and as we have to live together on this planet, we have to learn to live and love and get along together, regardless of our cultures and beliefs.
Everything is inextricably linked, and there are certain boundaries, which can become blurred, the oneness statement, is an attempt, at blurring these boundaries even more, so too confuse people.
This is where cognative dissonance comes in.
You are told something, and it has to be true, so many people are saying it, so many people believe it, you too have to believe it, if you want to fit in, if not, you will get ridiculed, and you dont want that do you?????
So, what you feel, but what you must say, are two different things!
The new religion being promoted is, we are all one!!!!
Well, in some sense, yes, but in real time, no!
We are all individuals, with the real sense of our individuality, no one else has the same blue print as you, the same thought processes as you, the experiences.............etc............
But, in this society, we must conform, so we must now conform to the new religion, which is, we are all one, we all must think, act and feel the same.
That to me is a robot!
Conformity, and oneness, are really the same thing, just different names.
I will be who iam, you will be who you are, we are one, in the sense we are connected by life, and on some level, what we do affects each other, but on another, it is an individual journey.

[DeDukshyn]

Again, the issue is people falling for generalizations of concepts thinking that means something without any distinctions then, feeling the need to either accept or reject it. The problem is in both the perception of the issue and the reaction to it. Not the thing itself. We spend so much energy on judging the details and having only one of two choices - "wholeheartedly agree" or "wholeheartedly reject". For some reason, people feel the need to have either on or the other of these upon every information or concept they come across ... why?

I'll just go away now. I've had my say ... a problem was presented, I presented why it occurs and how to prevent it from both the perception level and reaction level. My 2 cents ;)

Enjoy your day!

[Kelly]

To be honest, i dont really know, these are just things that have risen to the surface of my awareness since this conversation began.
Its always good to think and talk about these things.
Conformity is what we are always being told to do, to conform, to the norm, and right now, it seems that oneness is the new conformity, the new norm but what about individuality within the oneness?

[DeDukshyn]

To be honest, i dont really know, these are just things that have risen to the surface of my awareness since this conversation began.
Its always good to think and talk about these things.
Conformity is what we are always being told to do, to conform, to the norm, and right now, it seems that oneness is the new conformity, the new norm but what about individuality within the oneness?

ok, I lied .. I'm back .. ;)

So, oneness = conformity and conformity = "wrong", therefore oneness is "wrong"?

Conformity: the act of matching attitudes, beliefs and behaviours to group norms.

Here is the generalization again into "right" and "wrong". What if we used the word conformity to describe the coming together of individuals of their own volition in a consistently loving, peaceful and respectful environment? We can't if we have the generalization that conformity = "wrong". We can if the distinction is allowed to continue to exist. When a generalization is used in this way, it is used to cause confusion. If the perceiver can always see where these generalizations occur and where distinctions are being hidden, then there is far less confusion .. and far less "mind control" via false association.

For the viewer / receiver, asking questions about generalizations tends force the distinctions out of hiding, and forces riddance of the confusion. Reacting to the generalization without knowing the distinctions that define the context, exacerbates the confusion; I think this can be easily seen here in this thread.

What is meant by "oneness"? it is a concept used here without distinction - therefore a generalization. Reacting to the generalization IS the confusion ... it happens on both sides of the fence -- both the accused and accuser arre victims to this confusion.

I hope I didn't add more confusion ... ;) ;) ;)

[Kelly]

No, i do understand what you are saying, and to an extent, i agree, and it does happen on both sides, but it can mean different things to different people, as you say.
So, where do the boundaries begin and end?
Where does oneness, your perception of it, (individuals lovingly coming together) begin to blur into my perception of it (robots conforming) ?
Personally i like your version, and i wish it were true, but, generalizations yes do exist, and it is the overuse of this oneness word, which meant what you said, into becoming what i said.
The word has been overtaken and hi-jacked for an ulterior motive, which is not good IMO.
Language has long been used to create a different version of reality and to hi-jack our subconciousness, and the word oneness, im afraid, will create a world full of conforming robots, instead of the version of the world which you said you wanted, which i think is what we all really want.

[Chester]

To be honest, i dont really know, these are just things that have risen to the surface of my awareness since this conversation began.
Its always good to think and talk about these things.
Conformity is what we are always being told to do, to conform, to the norm, and right now, it seems that oneness is the new conformity, the new norm but what about individuality within the oneness?

A comment that vaguely may relate to this thread in that the word confusion has been mentioned. I am more easily confused when I get distracted> I also enjoy Kelly's posts. I hope Kelly does not mind my comment, but the constantly blinking eye causes me to be distracted every time I try and read her posts. I find myself holding my left hand over the blinking eye when i try to read Kelly's posts. Apologies, Kelly... I think it's cool, but had to mention how it really makes it hard for me to concentrate on your posts.

And now for "oneness"... from my POV. "Oneness" has the component "ness" which denotes to me "like being" thus in this case we are not exactly speaking about "one" we are speaking about "like being one."

I sense there are several ways to approach this idea. For example, knowing that when I observe anything, I affect what I am observing suggests to me I through some medium I am connected to the "thing" I am observing. And by examining oneness in this way, I am doing so within the physical (measurable) realm. If we remain within that realm, and we accept the quantum physical reality, then it can be argued we are all connected and that though it may be so infinitesimally small the affect of one observer upon another, if our instrument of measurement is precise enough, we could measuer the impact of each of us upon each other and upon everything else observable.

But then we have the physical, measurable realm and then the not physically measurable. If we see these two as the two and only two parts of some giant new whole, maybe we cannot all be one.

I am sure I confused most everyone here, so I will try and state my point. There's a place where words can no longer suffice... they can only point to "something." I have had moments where I felt I had entered into that something... very brief moments, but was "there."

That place felt like "all is one."

[Kelly]

haha, no, i dont mind you saying, ive never noticed it, but now you have pointed it out, i will always look at it, i just think its a beautiful eye, i didnt know it blinked until i chose it as my avatar ;)

A few years ago, i had an experience like this, where i saw all these amazing colours blend into one another, like a lava lamp, in front of my closed eyes while i was doing self healing.
I laughed and cried at the same time, i knew something profound had happened to me, an experience i have never had, before, or since.

One one level, we are all spiritual beings, having a human experience, and, regardless of our cultures, or beliefs, we are all one part, of the whole experience of the human race.
On another level, we all have our own truths, subjective, truths, which are part of the ultimate truth, which is awareness maybe?
We are all ONE part of the truth, maybe the truth being our individual selves???

(lol, im gonna have to think about changing my avatar now, it keeps bloody winking at me:eek:

[DeDukshyn]

No, i do understand what you are saying, and to an extent, i agree, and it does happen on both sides, but it can mean different things to different people, as you say.
So, where do the boundaries begin and end?
Where does oneness, your perception of it, (individuals lovingly coming together) begin to blur into my perception of it (robots conforming) ?
Personally i like your version, and i wish it were true, but, generalizations yes do exist, and it is the overuse of this oneness word, which meant what you said, into becoming what i said.
The word has been overtaken and hi-jacked for an ulterior motive, which is not good IMO.
Language has long been used to create a different version of reality and to hi-jack our subconciousness, and the word oneness, im afraid, will create a world full of conforming robots, instead of the version of the world which you said you wanted, which i think is what we all really want.

1) Boundries begin and end where we allow or indicate. How to fix this? From a speaker point of view -- don't use generalizations, use distinctions to say what you need to say. This way no one can mistrue your words for things you did not mean. From a perceiver / receiver point of view -- learn to identify generalizations, and ask for distinctions before reacting / responding; in this case if someone is trying to use a generalization to trick your mind into conforming to thier definition of the generalization, ask for distinctions - if they were genuine they will be provided and you can simply choose to agree / disagree or wait for more info, or be indifferent, or have no opinion. Again, agree and disagree are not the only options but this process has made it seem so -- "if your not with us, your againts us" is the perfect example of someone using a generalization to create a polarity.

2) I don't have a perception of oneness in that sense -- as I don't believe or disbelieve or assign any value to generalizations on their own, due to this issue. Therefore if we lay out clear distinctions on the table between us on the topic - the question of "oneness" becomes as irrelevant as the generalization it represents, and the distinctions within that assumed concept of "oneness" become the things that can clear the confusion and actually drive the topic forward. An example might be to add small statements before reacting like: "So by 'X', what exactly did you mean? Did you mean that ... <trying to force out the distinction>", and ensuring that you are not responding to the generalization itself. Responding to a generalization is the problem -- making the generalization disappear by drilling down into it's distinctions and see the real meaning that previously had to be assumed.

3) All kinds of concepts have been hi-jacked and used in this way to make you assume something by default - like the meaning of "oneness" for example. "New Age" is another perfect example. It behooves us to not fall for reacting to generalizations .. period, in both percieveing and speaking / teaching modes.

Your last sentence -- yes you are very correct, language is powerful it is "spelling" as in casting spells -- this not a coincidence. it can be used to manipulate minds (due to the fact that we are trained to use linguistically structured thought - this actually isn't natural) but it can also be used to free minds if used properly. So it is not the "oneness" or "conformity" or any "thing"; it is the ability or inability to keep or create distinctions and cancel out the effects on a mind of the generalizations. It is each of our responsibility to learn to use our language in this manner and prevent the "spells" that can happen from within language itself.

[DeDukshyn]

haha, no, i dont mind you saying, ive never noticed it, but now you have pointed it out, i will always look at it, i just think its a beautiful eye, i didnt know it blinked until i chose it as my avatar ;)

A few years ago, i had an experience like this, where i saw all these amazing colours blend into one another, like a lava lamp, in front of my closed eyes while i was doing self healing.
I laughed and cried at the same time, i knew something profound had happened to me, an experience i have never had, before, or since.

One one level, we are all spiritual beings, having a human experience, and, regardless of our cultures, or beliefs, we are all one part, of the whole experience of the human race.
On another level, we all have our own truths, subjective, truths, which are part of the ultimate truth, which is awareness maybe?
We are all ONE part of the truth, maybe the truth being our individual selves???

(lol, im gonna have to think about changing my avatar now, it keeps bloody winking at me:eek:

If we are all part of ONE truth -- isn't that a point for consideration of oneness as in being part of a whole (truth) that Pie appeared to reject? ;) ;) see what I mean? It can mean or have relationship to a million different things. It is not the things in themselves - it is the way in which they are expressed / understood .. or not. Thank you for prodding this discussion out of me, I feel it is a very important topic to bring into the open.

Edited a bit ... clarified it a little I think.

[Vitalux]

How we are confused.

We are confused by holding two ideas at the same time, which in fact cannot be done!
It's George Orwell's doublethink or doublespeak.

It's like being told 'They landed on the Moon and they didn't land on the Moon'. It has the mind running every which way. That's what happens on forums and the news. The information is never complete, just a suggestion, and off we go ….again!

This happens in spiritual talk as well, “Is there a me, or isn't there?”

We can take any subject or symbol and turn it around, superimpose, turn upside down and find geometry and meaning. But this still keeps us bound up in confusion.

Everything is a twist in the mind. Different cultures have different twists, and influences, so trying to solve a problem in the physical world is bound to cause confusion....it's meant to!

The idea of 'Oneness' is created to cause confusion, that we are all one. It's not going to happen, never has, and never will. This only serves for people to continue fighting among themselves. There has never ever been 'Oneness'. This is a distraction from understanding the unity of relative and absolute truth...there one could say oneness, but it's not the same as what is being promoted.

The whole point of a self imposed prison planet is CONFUSION! When we are confused we govern ourselves by pulling in all directions, this very reaction maintains this poison prison.

Inform one another, don't argue. Explain you position on a matter, and allow others to have a different view, because their culture is different. If you can clarify that would be wonderful, then we are getting somewhere.

We have to stop trying to be clever, and all knowing.
We 'are' clever and all knowing, in our own world.

If we play other people's games, we will never know all the rules. Our unique Knowing, will have a similar aspect to a few others, and we can be guided by similar methods, but the outcome will be unique.

Unity in diversity, is logical.:kiss:


Tony


PS. Old Art masters who were taught the same tradition skills of painting, all turn out unique and different. It is the same with Spiritual teacher.


I lost some of the confusion when I came aware that life is just an amusement park.
My purpose here is just a soul enjoying a physical experience in a physical illusion.
Nothing to fear at all, it's just a ride.



http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3236/2884586984_877531a733_m.jpg

[turiya]

How we are confused.

We don’t think of confusion as a desirable state.
But it is merely a sign that old rigidities and limitations are becoming dislodged.

It is good that you are feeling a little confused.
That shows that there is the beginning of intelligence.
Because, unless you have some intelligence you cannot be confused.

With confusion, there is also certainty.
Confusion arises because there is certainty.
The clinging to what is known... to what is certain... is stored within the intellect, and used to create the foundation of ego.
When another bit of information/knowledge enters, which is in contradiction to what is known, and the foundation of certainty (ego) is shaken. Hence, confusion.

When confusion disappears, certainty also disappears.
The moment you accept that "I don’t know", all confusion will disappear, it will simply evaporate.

-*-

[Tony]

Would people like to explain what Oneness is for them?

For me Oneness suggests a coming together of many. Has this ever happened? If Oneness truly existed, wouldn't be here now? People can hold the same idea, but that does not mean oneness. They just 'think' the same. I go on retreats a couple of times a year, we all receive the same teaching, but there is no oneness, as we are all individuals.

It's a like taking a lit candle and lighting other candles from that light, it's the same light, but the other candles are different. Of course not 'that' different, but different.

Do we mean Oneness with God or a deity? Are we saying, “I am one with God,” that is still two.
Are we saying, “I am God,” or “I and God are the same thing.” Does you have God powers? No.

Are we saying there 'will' be Oneness? Then we are not One now.

For many years I have done deity practices. There are hundreds of deities all having different attributes. Each one has a quality that one can emulate. I can imagine I am the deity, but I am not The deity.

In meditation I look into the mind and find no-thing-there, the 'I' drops away and it is empty, pure ...zero! The moment the “I” reappears there is ONE and Zero! A duality.

Where there is a oneness or unity, is in the inseparability of the two truths, relative truth and absolute truth. Meaning one reflects the other, so they are a unity, but they are not quite oneness. They could be said to be two sides of the same coin.

We can be at one with one another, or have a meeting of minds, but that is still not oneness.

Nope, I still see the idea of Oneness as an unachievable goal. It is a control mechanism, to make us feel not good enough, not totally perfect.

The perfection is in zero...and being happy with that knowing. Then Compassion is Knowing Zero.


Of course you may see this differently!

Can't stop laughing,
Tony

[music]

I find that we can experience oneness without feeling somehow lessened. The feeling of diminishment stems from the ego. I also find that one can exist in more than one state simultaneously, indeed, our true nature is that we are all simultaneously, yet at the same time we are nothing. We are everything, and we are nothing - we can't find a more contrary state than that.

The problem as I see it is that we approach these concepts which express our true nature with a toolkit that is calibrated to 3-D existence. These things are best appreciated when one is out of the body, or to put it otherwise, from the perspective of higher consciousness. I will say that I can and do experience our oneness and inter-connectedness in a very real way, but when I try to relate the experience to others it is four times removed from truth. 1) I must process it with my 3-D toolkit; 2) I need to convert what I think I understand into language I feel another will understand; 3) The information is received by another's unique 3-D toolkit; and 4) The idea is processed and turned into thoughts (generally tied to language) by the other person. Is it any wonder there is confusion?

Yes, the idea of oneness is used by vested interest, usually portrayed in an ersatz form with rainbows and unicorns in attendance. The concept is one of power, so again, of course attempts will be made to subvert/divert us from this power.

[Tony]

Recognising my confusion and that it cause me suffering, was the beginning of my looking for the cause of this confusion..... and the cause was not outside of my own mind, it was the mind itself. From that moment things only got better!

[Sirius White]

The concepts of Oneness

And Love and Light

That are pushed forward by new age ideologies are fascimilies of very basic truths that we know deep inside.

True understanding, true consciousness of higher degree which causes a connectivity between people, the earth ,the universe and life itself comes from a genuine connection- not through pseudo spirituality of patented positivity. Understanding the truth of all the details is a very small part of the battle- those things matter little when you reach a state of knowing within yourself. There is NO confusion then.

Ironically, Unity, true connectivity is going to found by people EXPLORING THEIR MAXIMUM INDIVIDUALITY themselves! This is not about conforming to any new religions, new age teachings, or any belief system for that matter.

But confusion has a role from a higher vantage point: the illusion of free will is paramount to spiritual essences who wish to forget their immortality and lack of separation. Physicality, by its very nature is born into confusion. It is this confusion, this awe and bewilderment that causes people to want to figure it all out. Which is merely the process of discovering a facet of self.

Distraction, confusion- even that is relative. Haha just kidding :)

This is why all the the traditions of the Yogi's, as well as alchemists of the west focused on transforming mind and consciousness. And to be less bound to its natural state of confusion, slave to thoughts/emotions, as well as our perceptual illusions. The mind and the body is programmed and sort of designed to cause a state of confusion and disconnection to the Self, or so it seems. But there is also, interestingly enough latent psychophisiologies as well as aspects of DNA, and capacities of the mind to evolve itself- along with the spirit.

It's just a simple mastery of the self, the body and mind. To gain clarity is to de-clutter the confusion, and make way for self to emerge.

[crested-duck]

Interesting thread for me today, I agree and understand most all individual perceptions here. I believe the reason for so much confusion,and deliberate use of language for personal motives, should be clear for most reading this. I feel "motive" behind language and actions is the key here to be understood. I get gut reactions to certain phrases such as-all are one-god is the answer- fair and balanced,etc....I watched fox news for about 1 week and couldn't stand it any more. Every time I heard "fair and balanced news" My subconscious screamed "full of s**t". Every time I hear "god is the answer" ,subconscious screams "bulls**t". When I hear "oneness" subconscious screams "more political correctness bulls**t".----Do we all see the intentional confusion in action now for what it's worth yet? I see it and do not agree or appreciate it at all.--Rob

[Kelly]

I think maybe being at one with ourselves is more important than actual oneness with others.
Maybe when we find the peace within ourselves, it can flow out and touch others hearts.

[Chester]

Would people like to explain what Oneness is for them?

For me Oneness suggests a coming together of many. Has this ever happened? If Oneness truly existed, wouldn't be here now? People can hold the same idea, but that does not mean oneness. They just 'think' the same. I go on retreats a couple of times a year, we all receive the same teaching, but there is no oneness, as we are all individuals.

It's a like taking a lit candle and lighting other candles from that light, it's the same light, but the other candles are different. Of course not 'that' different, but different.

Do we mean Oneness with God or a deity? Are we saying, “I am one with God,” that is still two.
Are we saying, “I am God,” or “I and God are the same thing.” Does you have God powers? No.

Are we saying there 'will' be Oneness? Then we are not One now.

For many years I have done deity practices. There are hundreds of deities all having different attributes. Each one has a quality that one can emulate. I can imagine I am the deity, but I am not The deity.

In meditation I look into the mind and find no-thing-there, the 'I' drops away and it is empty, pure ...zero! The moment the “I” reappears there is ONE and Zero! A duality.

Where there is a oneness or unity, is in the inseparability of the two truths, relative truth and absolute truth. Meaning one reflects the other, so they are a unity, but they are not quite oneness. They could be said to be two sides of the same coin.

We can be at one with one another, or have a meeting of minds, but that is still not oneness.

Nope, I still see the idea of Oneness as an unachievable goal. It is a control mechanism, to make us feel not good enough, not totally perfect.

The perfection is in zero...and being happy with that knowing. Then Compassion is Knowing Zero.


Of course you may see this differently!

Can't stop laughing,
Tony

Not sure why... but I didn't really get your OP. Perhaps I was a bit tired, perhaps my mind was distracted... but this post I totally get and I happen to totally agree with it.

Ahhh, it just hit me why. You did the zero and 1 thing. I have done that one. Of course, I forget it unfortunately, but that is where I discovered exactly what you posted, Tony. Great thread... great reminder for me. Thank you. justone

[turiya]

Would people like to explain what Oneness is for them?
For me Oneness suggests a coming together of many. Has this ever happened? If Oneness truly existed, wouldn't be here now? People can hold the same idea, but that does not mean oneness.


It is better to view this from its converse.
Instead of bringing the many together to make Oneness.
Oneness already exists. It is the mind that makes many out of it.

In other words - without mind, there is oneness.

'Oneness' cannot be described with words. As words are a function of mind.
As Zen people have indicated, 'Oneness' is simply "No Mind".

Mind is what divides, makes oneness into two, and into many more.
Mind acts as a prism dividing light into many different colors.
Whatever passes through the mind comes out being divided.
This is what mind does best. It divides, analyses, dissects, separates, categorizes & classifies.


Are we saying there 'will' be Oneness? Then we are not One now.

There is oneness, when the "I am" is not, when the ego is not.
Descartes was correct when he uttered "I think, therefore, I am." For he meant the "I am" as the ego.
To clarify his statement even further, is to say... "I think, therefore, I am & Oneness is not."


I still see the idea of Oneness as an unachievable goal. It is a control mechanism, to make us feel not good enough, not totally perfect.
The perfection is in zero...and being happy with that knowing. Then Compassion is Knowing Zero.


Certainly the idea of Oneness is an unachievable goal.
Because Oneness is the way, not a goal to be achieved.

If you think you are somewhere outside of Oneness, separate from Oneness, trying to get to, or achieve to Oneness, there is no way, there is no path that will take you there. Because in reality, you are already there, just thinking your are not.

This is why the so-called "established" religions have been sold in the marketplace. They sell people the idea that they know the way. Become a member, hop on our bus, and you will be taken to Oneness.

There is no way to get to a place called Oneness. Oneness is the way, not a goal to be achieved.
Drop the idea of needing to go somewhere, and suddenly you are there. Oneness is happening now.
Thinking about it, and making it a goal to be achieved, this is why people are missing it.

turiya

[DeDukshyn]

This discussion has turned out quite well.

For me personally,

I prefer the word "connectedness" as it is a bit more specific, echoing some others' sentiments here, "oneness" is just too vague. But what I would describe in my sense of the understanding of the word would be pretty close to my original post -- being consciously in a place where you mind has full regard to the whole of humanity and the Earth and the Universe and God, if applicable; as opposed to just being driven by it's single ego with only regard for itself.

I also echo Turiya's sentiment in that it can relate to returning to a more original state, to a state of having a less fragmented mind.

[Tony]

I agree that our confusion is 'not knowing' our essential nature, and how we find our way to uncover it.
This essential nature is Knowing and Pure. The outcome of Pure Knowing is Compassion.


Tony

[DeDukshyn]

I agree that our confusion is 'not knowing' our essential nature, and how we find our way to uncover it.
This essential nature is Knowing and Pure. The outcome of Pure Knowing is Compassion.


Tony

Yes, I share this sentiment exactly, but I learned it in likely an entirely different way than you. For me the premise of 'not knowing our essential nature' drives the question 'who am I?' or 'What am I?'. From that question begins the process of seeking for that answer outside ourselves. During this process we begin to accept the labels and generalizations we put on ourselves and that others put on us. Once we realize that this is a road to nowhere in our quest to understand, we look for ways to uncover what was always within us. The way to dig down past all the labels we have accepted and find that essential nature once again, but with the wisdom this time around to accept it wholly.

Also Tony, I claimed that these issues extend from language and / or the use of it; you claimed that it is in the mind. I just wanted to clarify I believe we both mean the same thing, as all language is both formed and perceived within the mind, the language is an abstract concept to the mind in this regard. (sometimes things can look different but represent the same ideas)

Interesting thread, Thanks!

[Maunagarjana]

Would people like to explain what Oneness is for them?

I could say so much about this....write volumes really, because it's not a simple topic. Well, it is exquisitely simple and it isn't. Anyhow, I'll just say this. Essentially, we are all one being, and that being is all there is.

Anyone who objects to this for whatever reason, I'd like you to show me where I end and the rest of the world begins. On a physics level, on a psychological level, or on a spiritual level, I do not believe this is possible. I've tried to find this and have concluded to my satisfaction that there is no separation.

I know those out there who are very wound up about sovereignty will not like this because they like to believe they live in some kind of sovereignty bubble which must be guarded at all times. To me, we are not *just* sovereign beings. We are simultaneously sovereign *and* integral beings. It seems like a contradiction, but it's not. It may be appropriate to accentuate one or the other, given the circumstances, but that doesn't change the underlying essential nature.

Behind all the illusions of manyness, there is oneness....like the sun behind the clouds. I would think most Buddhists could understand this, as long as you point out to them that knowing this intellectually doesn't mean anything, and it still doesn't do anything about the problem of suffering.

For those of a more theistic mindset who want to maintain the separation between us and the creator, or between the creator and creation, I would say that any supposed cosmic creator *has only itself to create with*. What it may create may be stepped-down versions of itself (or stepped-down versions of stepped-down versions), but it would still essentially be part of that one being. If you can understand what the implications of that are, you can understand oneness.

Some people don't want to understand oneness and find many ways to purposefully misunderstand it, because they don't like the idea of it. It's not how they prefer to relate to their environment, other beings, or their creator (or what have you).

But for those who do want to understand it, it is crucial that one is able to understand paradox, or seeming contradiction, in order to see how it relates to the realm of duality and relative truth. To get to ultimate truth, you are always going to have to go through the gate of paradox. One of the great paradoxes is that we are already all one, learning more and more to become one.

[Tony]

I agree that our confusion is 'not knowing' our essential nature, and how we find our way to uncover it.
This essential nature is Knowing and Pure. The outcome of Pure Knowing is Compassion.


Tony

Yes, I share this sentiment exactly, but I learned it in likely an entirely different way than you. For me the premise of 'not knowing our essential nature' drives the question 'who am I?' or 'What am I?'. From that question begins the process of seeking for that answer outside ourselves. During this process we begin to accept the labels and generalizations we put on ourselves and that others put on us. Once we realize that this is a road to nowhere in our quest to understand, we look for ways to uncover what was always within us. The way to dig down past all the labels we have accepted and find that essential nature once again, but with the wisdom this time around to accept it wholly.

Also Tony, I claimed that these issues extend from language and / or the use of it; you claimed that it is in the mind. I just wanted to clarify I believe we both mean the same thing, as all language is both formed and perceived within the mind, the language is an abstract concept to the mind in this regard. (sometimes things can look different but represent the same ideas)

Interesting thread, Thanks!

I absolutely agree with you.
Depending on the path we tread, we will use a set of terminology unique to that path, but there are many ways of describing the same thing. In my tradition there are nine paths each uses the same words but the meaning changes. But. they are just words, they are not the actual experience...that is beyond words. I'm sure there was a time when we could communicate without words, but that time has past, we are now in the Iron age!

However this Age of Strife and Emotions does bring some benefits with it........faster progress!


Kind regards,
Tony

[Black Panther]

Damn Tony, now I'm confused :confused:

[DeDukshyn]

Would people like to explain what Oneness is for them?

For me Oneness suggests a coming together of many. Has this ever happened? If Oneness truly existed, wouldn't be here now? People can hold the same idea, but that does not mean oneness. They just 'think' the same. I go on retreats a couple of times a year, we all receive the same teaching, but there is no oneness, as we are all individuals.

It's a like taking a lit candle and lighting other candles from that light, it's the same light, but the other candles are different. Of course not 'that' different, but different.

Do we mean Oneness with God or a deity? Are we saying, “I am one with God,” that is still two.
Are we saying, “I am God,” or “I and God are the same thing.” Does you have God powers? No.

Are we saying there 'will' be Oneness? Then we are not One now.

For many years I have done deity practices. There are hundreds of deities all having different attributes. Each one has a quality that one can emulate. I can imagine I am the deity, but I am not The deity.

In meditation I look into the mind and find no-thing-there, the 'I' drops away and it is empty, pure ...zero! The moment the “I” reappears there is ONE and Zero! A duality.

Where there is a oneness or unity, is in the inseparability of the two truths, relative truth and absolute truth. Meaning one reflects the other, so they are a unity, but they are not quite oneness. They could be said to be two sides of the same coin.

We can be at one with one another, or have a meeting of minds, but that is still not oneness.

Nope, I still see the idea of Oneness as an unachievable goal. It is a control mechanism, to make us feel not good enough, not totally perfect.

The perfection is in zero...and being happy with that knowing. Then Compassion is Knowing Zero.


Of course you may see this differently!

Can't stop laughing,
Tony

Not sure why... but I didn't really get your OP. Perhaps I was a bit tired, perhaps my mind was distracted... but this post I totally get and I happen to totally agree with it.

Ahhh, it just hit me why. You did the zero and 1 thing. I have done that one. Of course, I forget it unfortunately, but that is where I discovered exactly what you posted, Tony. Great thread... great reminder for me. Thank you. justone

I didn't get it at first either and I took the thread on a bit of ride, but I still think it was productive overall. The zero and one thing is pretty good -- I liked that. ;)

[Chester]

Its funny... but in rereading this thread, it's almost like we are all saying the same thing... something we are pointing to at least.

Definitely a paradox. I have heard this referred to as THE Mystery and its almost like we can never solve it as long as we exist in form.

[DeDukshyn]

Its funny... but in rereading this thread, it's almost like we are all saying the same thing... something we are pointing to at least.

Definitely a paradox. I have heard this referred to as THE Mystery and its almost like we can never solve it as long as we exist in form.

I believe a single word sums it up: Ineffable -- because we use linguistically structured thought - anything that falls outside our labels and agreements falls into the category of the ineffable. Linguistically structured thought is incredibly restrictive. Then I think about the fact that the English language actually has about 600,000 words in it's completeness, those moderately educated will use/know about 60,000 different words and the very well educated about up to 120,000 words. To me this fact of expression reduction is like a vice tightening its grip. This is why I put so much emphasis on the language aspect of the mind -- the proper usage and using it to free minds rather than restrict minds.

And yes I totally agree. I've studied a few different religions and philosophies - they are way more similar then they are different if you take step back and look at it - but the fragmented mind has a tendency to only see the differences, thus those get emphasized.