HUNZAS - a people who live to age 145!

[CeltMan]

HUNZAS, -a people who live to age 145!

http://thepdi.com/hunza_health_secrets.htm

This amazing race of people called Hunzas (pronounced ‘Hoonzas’) I first came across several years ago.

The book, about the Hunzas, was one I bought privately and was a fascinating read.
Whilst recently looking for another book, on alternative health, I came across this book and thought to share it's contents with you folk here.

There are many fascinating aspects of this people, who live in a remote and inaccessible part of the world.

Many live to an advanced age(for us) of 145 years.

To live to an age of 130, is considered quite normal for these people.

The Hunzas live in the Himalayas, between the borders of: Kashmir, China, India, Afghanistan.

At age 100, a Hunza is considered neither old nor elderly.

They number only about 30,000 as a population.

The West became aware of the Hunzas in 1920’s when a Scottish doctor named Dr. MacCarrisson came across them on his travels, and spent several years living amongst them.

He made copious notes on their: diet, lifestyle, health etc.

Part of the secret of their longevity seems to be their diet.

They eat very little meat, just poultry, then only once a week.
They eat sparsely, and do not overeat.
Hunzas eat only twice a day.

Their diet is essentially pure food: fruit, vegetables, nuts, grains, milk, yogurt & cheese.

They have as part of their essential staple diet the ‘chapatti’

*(I have a recipe as the Hunzas make Chapatti’s if anyone wants it)

Thy use mainly buckwheat & wholemeal flour,…with the germ still intact.(totally Unrefined)

They have boundless energy, working hard physical demanding tasks-for long hours.
Bearing in mind where these people live, this involves climbs up steep mountain paths.

A 15-20 Km walk is considered quite normal for them.

They also like to swim,-in the freezing mountain lakes & streams.(Brrrrrrrr!!!)

The Hunzas practice slow & deep breathing and yoga techniques.

The Hunzas also practice short meditation sessions a few time throughout the day.

Their day starts at 5am, and as there is no electricity they go to sleep at nightfall.

What is also extraordinary about the Hunzas, is that: there are no banks there; no prisons, …& NO DISEASES!

Apart from the influences of: diet; pacing oneself; exercise; breathing; etc it must be said that they have pure; air, water, & food.

Here is the west, getting old is considered a problem for most people, because it often entails ill health.

Just imagine if we could anticipate growing old and enjoying good health.

http://thepdi.com/hunza_health_secrets.htm

[13th Warrior]

They have as part of their essential staple diet the ‘chapatti’

Don't tell the gluten haters.

[Arrowwind]

Could it be because the eat a lot of goji berries?
The are the ultimate in superfoods.
I just planted them a couple of weeks ago
http://gojiberry.com/

Protects the liver — less fatigue
Helps eyesight – supports kidney function
Increases metabolic activity — burns fat and aids digestion
Boosts immune function – Lymphocytes, Interleukin 2, Immunoglobulin
Improves circulation — supports distribution of nutrients and quality energy levels
Improves sexual function and fertility — boosts libido and energy
Promotes longevity — brings life support to the blood and all internal organs
Rich in phytonutrients, antioxidants, particularly carotenoids such as beta-carotene and zeaxanthin.
Test studies are showing that Goji berries may prevent the growth of cancer cells, reduce blood glucose, and lower cholesterol levels.
Goji has unique bioactive polysaccharides (LBP) — key markers for building immune response

[ED209]

The Hunza don't actually live to be 145 calendar years old...the tribe calculates age based on wisdom. They increase the described age of particularly smart people. For example, an especially wise Hunza who is objectively 50 calendar years old can be described as being 130 years old to reflect that they have acquired the knowledge of someone that has lived much longer than 50 years.

Whole foods and exercise and clean air do significantly increase longevity no matter where you live, but not quite as much as 145 years.

Why I just happen to randomly know this is beyond me...the Hunza came up in a college anthropology course I took several years ago.

[Arrowwind]

The Hunza don't actually live to be 145 calendar years old...the tribe calculates age based on wisdom. They increase the described age of particularly smart people. For example, an especially wise Hunza who is objectively 50 calendar years old can be described as being 130 years old to reflect that they have acquired the kniwledgw of someone that has lived much longer than 50 years.

Whole foods and exercise and clean air do significantly increase longevity no matter where you live, but not quite as much as 145 years.

Why I just happen to randomly know this is beyond me...It came up in a college anthropology course I took several years ago.

With all the alternative health folks who have gone to Hunza land to investigate you would think that this would be understood. Ive never heard this before.
I'm gonna keep eating my goji berries anyway.

[ED209]

This age description system is understood. It is understood and has been academically written about. I think that alternative health experts might be exploiting an interesting social norm of the Hunza. Actually, I thought serious community wide health issues were a big problem for the Hunza people. They live very remotely, so they have few health care options, which leaves them with serious health and medical issues. The median life expectancy for a Hunza male is about mid-50s. Dental care is unheard of. Prenatal care is unheard of. And I think they suffer from a genetic propensity for blindness...but I am not sure about the blindness. My memory might not serve me well on the eye sight part of what I just wrote.

[Arrowwind]

Folks in the Himalayas eat goji... cant say if the Hunza do or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZKCzoKZCjs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZKCzoKZCjs)

[CeltMan]

The Hunza don't actually live to be 145 calendar years old...the tribe calculates age based on wisdom. They increase the described age of particularly smart people. For example, an especially wise Hunza who is objectively 50 calendar years old can be described as being 130 years old to reflect that they have acquired the knowledge of someone that has lived much longer than 50 years.

Whole foods and exercise and clean air do significantly increase longevity no matter where you live, but not quite as much as 145 years.

Why I just happen to randomly know this is beyond me...the Hunza came up in a college anthropology course I took several years ago.

I have NO idea where you are getting your 'dis' info from.

Suggestion, why not try looking and reading and seeing the positive in a thread, instead of looking for ways to dis it?

Or at least give an actual ref,...IF you do have any proof of your disinfo.

The book I refer to is: 'The Secrets of the Hunzas', by- Christian H. Godefroy.

[Unified Serenity]

I have NO idea where you are getting your 'dis' info from.

Suggestion, why not try looking and reading and seeing the positive in a thread, instead of looking for ways to dis it?

Or at least give an actual ref,...IF you do have any proof of your disinfo.

The book I refer to is: 'The Secrets of the Hunzas', by- Christian H. Godefroy.

I happen to appreciate his sharing what he learned. How do I know they actually lived to the age of 145? I can examine both bits of information, and go digging, but I don't think sharing what he learned is being negative, it's presenting more information for me to then act upon or not act upon. Truth is truth and are you so sure they don't arbitrarily apply an age? I mean, are you saying that someone could not be unaware of that fact and thus write a book sharing what they do know but leaving out facts that the other poster shared? How is it negative?

[Unified Serenity]

So, I decided to do some research and so far I have this:



The Hunza Longevity Myth.


John Clark did not make any mention whatsoever about the Hunza people living to an especially old age. The British general who first visited Hunza in the 1870s said there were old people but gave no indication as to the ages. At that time in history, a person beyond 50 years of age was considered to be well beyond the average life expectancy.

http://biblelife.org/Hunza-old-men.jpgThis picture shows old Hunza men who proclaim to a visitor that they are more than 100 years of age. They appear to be 70 to 80 years of age which would be more accurate. Because this is a recent picture taken by tourists, these gentlemen were probably never born or raised in Hunza. They most likely arrived from other areas of Pakistan, drawn to the opportunity of collecting a gratuity from the unsuspecting traveler for the privilege of taking their picture.

Hunzakuts are known for their folklore and story telling as are most primitive people. After switching from being a warrior people to a peaceful people, the Hunzakuts developed a highly over-inflated opinion of themselves. They thought the British soldiers had come to surrender to their leadership. They viewed themselves as living in the land of perfect, and they claimed theirs was the perfect society. They were and continue to be very much in denial of their true situation. This attitude is not uncommon among primitive peoples. Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson reported a very similar attitude among the primitive Eskimos who had never seen a white man. The Eskimos bragged that their Shaman (religious leader) could kill a bear on the other side of the mountain with a bow and arrow, and that he could travel to the Moon, converse with the people living there and return. The Eskimo considered themselves to be far superior to the white man who admitted to having never been to the moon. This was in 1910 before white man did travel to the Moon, walk on the surface and return, although not finding the people whom the Eskimo claimed lived there.
Stefansson 1 - Eskimos Prove An All Meat Diet Provides Excellent Health. (http://www.biblelife.org/stefansson1.htm)

Exaggerations of the longevity of the Hunza people have exploded because the British General reported that the Hunza people lived to a healthy old age. Some claims are now being made that the Hunzakuts lived 150 to 200 years of age. These claims are pure nonsense. The claim that the people lived to 110 years of age is also false. The thought of a Garden of Eden has many imaginations running wild. The following is a typical example of the wild myths being propagated.


"The Hunza of the title is a valley in the Himalayan foothills of northern Pakistan. The Hunza people are best known for their healthy diet and lifestyle that supposedly result in people living to the age of 150 and having an active sex life until the age of 200 — or something like that."

The health of the present-day Hunza is known for certain. The following is a present day observation.


"As someone who has lived and worked in the Hunza and Baltistan region of northern Pakistan for a decade, it is important to first debunk the myth that the Burushushki, Wakhi and Shina people of the Hunza region are blessed with the lives of Methusula. This was actually a myth which gained momentum when it was written up by Dr. Alexander Leaf, in the January 1973 issue of National Geographic magazine. There is absolutely no scientific validity to his claim. People of the Hunza suffer from malnutrition and nutrition deficiencies just as much as any other remote mountain region in SE Asia. Although the predominantly Ismaeli faith (branch of Shi-ite muslims) are progressive and relatively better off than most of their neighbours in nearby regions, they will all tell any visitor, that their life expectancy is around 50 - 60 years, just like any other region of northern Pakistan."

The lack of resources left the Hunza people in a constant struggle to obtain their food, and the mountain farming on the sides of the steep rocky valley required a lot of hard work. The caloric intake was naturally low and never in abundance. This combination of factors prevented the Hunza people from becoming obese and lead to the avoidance of diseases caused by a diet with an abundance of carbohydrates.
Absolute Scientific Proof Carbohydrates Are Pathogenic. (http://www.biblelife.org/carbs.htm)

The Mir gave Renee Taylor the secret to the longevity claim of the Hunzakuts, but she totally missed the implication. He said,


"Age has nothing to do with the calendar." See page 51.

Taylor confirmed that the people did not look to be as old as they claimed.


"He looked about fifty, but he told me that he was about eighty." See page 60.

The Hunzakuts had developed the practice of equating age with wisdom, experience, and achievement. A wise farmer of 50 years of age who had accumulated much more than the average farmer could rightly claim to be 120 years of age instead of his truly 50 calendar years. Taylor said she saw a man playing and jumping at a game of volleyball who said he was 145 years old but looked to be only 50 or maybe 60. See page 63. Taylor tries to lead the reader into believing these men were very old. In fact, they were not. It is doubtful that they were even 50 or 60. The dry, dusty air of Hunza and the nutritional deficiencies most likely made the people look much older than they really were. This man was probably between 40 and 50 years of age but claimed to be 145 years old.

Renee Taylor made no attempt assemble the descendants of any of the older people in order to gain some confirmation as to age. It certainly would have made a point if she had taken a picture, but it was impossible to take a picture of eight living generations because the man's age was a big lie. She could have easily taken such a picture if "nobody ever gets sick in Hunza." The picture would have been interesting and looked something like this.



Man claiming to be 145 years of age jumping and playing volleyball.

Son of 125 years of age.

Grandson of 105 years of age.

Great grandson of 85 years of age.

Great great grandson of 65 years of age.

Great great great grandson of 45 years of age.

Great great great great grandson of 25 years of age.

Great great great great great grandson of 5 years of age.


Visitors have taken many pictures of family groups in Hunza showing babies with their father and grandfather. These grandfathers are unlikely to be any older than they appear. They are perhaps 50 years of age as is common for a grandfather, not 120 years of age as some books falsely claim.

http://biblelife.org/black_bar.gif


The Hunza Vegetarian Myth.


The Hunza people were never vegetarians or even close to it. They refrained from eating many of their animals in summer because animals were the main source of food in the remaining 10 months of the year. They ate a high-fat diet all year long, especially in winter when the consumption of animal fats increased. The butter, yogurt, and cheese made from the goat, sheep, and Yak milk was very high in fat, especially saturated fats. The Hunza people were somewhat vegetarian for two or three months during the summer.

The diet that vegetarian authors claim was eaten by the Hunza people can be found in other modern and primitive societies. The present people in Southern India are strict vegetarians by religious conviction, but they have the shortest life span on earth as scientifically proven. They are ravaged by disease and diet deficiencies, and suffer from frail body structures. The children exhibit a failure to thrive, and the childhood mortality is very high.

The ancient people of Egypt in the days of the Pharaohs ate a diet almost identical to that claimed for the Hunza people by present-day vegetarian authors, but the health of the Egyptians was a disaster. The Egyptians had a written language that described diseases such as tooth decay, obesity, and heart disease. They lived on the fertile flood plain of the Nile River delta. Life was easy, and grains, fruits, and vegetables were grown in an overwhelming abundance. The Bible tells of the abundance in Egypt while surrounding peoples were suffering drought and famine. The Egyptians mummified hundreds of thousands of people whose preserved remains are available for study today. The bodies can be examined today to identify diseases and diet deficiencies. Even though they had a abundance of food they suffered terribly from rotten teeth, osteoporosis, diabetes, and heart disease. Soft tissue diseases such as cancer are more difficult to trace in the mummies. Heart disease would have not been identified had it not been for the Egyptian writings. The cause of the Egyptians poor health was the abundance of carbohydrate foods not unlike the abundance found in supermarkets today.
Absolute Scientific Proof Carbohydrates Are Pathogenic.
(http://www.biblelife.org/carbs.htm)



In Summary on that page, which obviously some will take great umbridge it says,




The Primary Books Written About Hunza.

John Clark (1909 - 1994) earned his doctorate in geology at Princeton University in 1935. As an officer in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Clark explored nine thousand miles of roads and trails in Kansu and Sinkiang, China. Clark decided to help the people of Hunza because of his wide geological experience and some medical expertise. He went to Hunza in 1950 and 1951 and wrote the book, Hunza - Lost Kingdom of the Himalayas, in 1957. He traveled by horseback over the rugged and dangerous trail for 70 miles from Gilgit and found the people to be strong, intelligent, and proud of their independence. In his 20 month stay, he got to know the Hunza people on a personal level, and with his 20 years' experience in first aid as a field geologist, he ran a free dispensary where he treated 5,684 patients with sulphas, penicillin, paludrines, atabrine, undecylenic acid, and other drugs. His reference medical books were Cutting's Manual of Therapeutics, Merck Manual, Gardiner's Handbook of Skin Diseases, and Medical Council Practice Papers. See page 75 in the 1957 first edition of the book. The pages in the pdf file below do not match the pages in the book.



Download book text in pdf format. Hunza - Lost Kingdom of the Himalayas.pdf (http://biblelife.org/Hunza%20-%20Lost%20Kingdom%20of%20the%20Himalayas.pdf)

Download book pictures in pdf format: Hunza - Lost Kingdom of the Himalayas Pictures.pdf (http://biblelife.org/Hunza%20-%20Lost%20Kingdom%20of%20the%20Himalayas%20Pictures.pdf)


Hunza was not a democracy as falsely reported. The Mir (King) was a strong dictator. His meeting with the ministers from each village was called a Durbar where the ministers brought up concerns and problems. The Mir ask for their opinion but in the end they were simply "yes" men. The Mir had such control over the subjects of Hunza that a farmer refrained from correcting the river channel when the river had begun eroding his farm land. The farmer had to get permission from the Mir before trying to save his farm. See John Clark page 105.

http://biblelife.org/Hunza-Mir-Jamal-Khan-1961.jpg The Hunza people did not enjoy exceptionally long life as falsely claimed. It is doubtful that anyone in Hunza ever lived to be 100 year of age. The ages claimed by the Hunzakuts were simply lies. They considered age to be a matter of wisdom and achievement, not calendar years. They kept no written records and did not know their calendar age.

This picture was taken in 1961. Queen Rani is on the left. Mir Jamal Khan is third from the left. His age was accurately known because he was royalty. He was born on September 23, 1912, and died in Gilgit, Pakistan, on March 18, 1976. He was only 49 when this picture was taken but looks much older. He only lived to age 64. He certainly was not a symbol of longevity.

The Hunza people were not healthy or free from disease. They suffered greatly from a multitude of diseases. They had poor dental health and infections. They lived in a very unsanitary environment. The one benefit was the extreme isolation that reduced the number of contagious diseases. Cancer and heart disease may have been rare, but it is unknown for certain because the dead were never examined by a professional.

The Hunza diet was not the perfect diet as claimed. Diet deficiencies abound. The diet was seriously deficient in iodine, omega-3 fatty acids, and amino acids from proteins. Many of the diseases treated by John Clark were the result of the a nutritional deficiency.

Tuberculosis is a good example of a disease that causes death for those with a protein deficiency. The Hunzakuts suffered and died from tuberculosis as reported by John Clark. The immune system is made entirely from amino acids derived from eating protein. Meat is the best source of amino acids. The Hunzakuts developed tuberculosis and died as a result of protein deficiency. Dr. Weston E. Price in the 1920s, and Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson in the 1910s discovered that Eskimos who developed tuberculosis while living in the white man's settlements and eating carbohydrates were cured after being transferred to live with the natives on their traditional all-meat diet. Moving the sick Eskimos out of the settlements to return to the native way was a proven cure for diseases.

The Hunzakuts were not a wonderfully happy people as claimed. The women in Hunza were treated harshly. They were not allowed an education and were highly restricted in public. The women endured hard labor in smoky dwellings and suicide was not uncommon. They would either eat the poison pits from the bitter apricot or jump from a convenient cliff.

The grains did not mature faster in Hunza than other places as falsely reported by Dr. Allen E. Banik. The vegetation and trees in Hunza showed signs of nutritional deficiency as reported by John Clark. Hunza is an artificial environment that depends on hard manual labor to keep the terraced gardens watered and fertilized. The silt used to make the gardens is not organic soil. It is ground rock that originates from the grinding of the glacier as it moves down the high mountain valley above. The silt contains many minerals but lacks phosphates and organic matter. Fertilization with animal dung and human excrement is required several times during the growing season to keep the plants and trees healthy. Even so, the growing conditions are not ideal. Luckily, the glacial milk does not contain harmful minerals or metals in sufficient quantities to cause health problems for the vegetation, animals, or humans. No two glacial milks are the same. Glacial water from other areas of the Earth are each different from one another. The content depends completely on the composition of the rock over which they flow.

The Hunza people were no different from other people who lived in isolated high mountain communities. Most of the books written about the Hunzakuts are simply fiction and myths flamed by the imagination into believing the Hunza River Valley was a magical Garden of Eden where people never got sick. The people of Hunza recognized a century ago that pretending to be centenarians brought visitors bearing money and gifts. They certainly must have been laughing after retreating to the privacy of their homes. Primitive people the world over have been known to tell tall tales about themselves to strangers visiting their land. Lying about one's age is as old as mankind. The people of Hunza are known for their consistent exaggerations of age in order to gain respect and social status. The social structure of Hunza encouraged lying and cheating as a profitable way to better one's self.

Scientific facts about Hunza have been impossible to obtain. Since the British first entered Hunza, the ruling Mir has placed a severe restriction on visitors to the valley. Permission was required from both Pakistan and the State of Hunza. Scientific studies or independent investigations were strictly forbidden. An invitation from the Mir of Hunza was essential to obtain a special-entry permit. As late as 1960 there were no hotels, no restaurants, and no stores to buy food. Chosen visitors were generally guests of the Mir in the capital of Baltit where they were told make-believe story instead of the truth about Hunza.

The Mir of Hunza never provided verification of the longevity of the Hunzakuts and never allowed others to investigate. The Hunzakuts of the past were no older than they appeared and may have actually been younger than they appeared. The longevity was a hoax from the beginning, and the diet did not produce a super-human race. Hunza could best be described as an isolated high mountain kingdom founded on betrayal and struggling for existence by deceiving the world.


Reactions Received From This Web Page.
The myths, distortions, and lies about Hunza persist because many people jump on the bandwagon when they see a good scam for making money selling fraudulent books. This fact applies to the story about Hunza. John Clark has been the only honest author to write about Hunza. He lived in Hunza for 20 months. Others only visited for a few days. It was very rare that a visitor would be allowed to stay as long as John Clark did, but that was in the days before Hunza because an attraction for foreigners. Other book authors only allowed to visit for a few days. The ruler of Hunza would not let people stay for any extended period like the opportunity given to John Clark, but he too was kicked out of Hunza after 20 long months. The Hunza people realized their fraudulent lies filled their pockets with money from the rich visitors willing to cross the palm of the hand with generous amounts of money for an interview or picture. Old people from Pakistan who were in their 80s or 90s moved to Hunza to pose for money while claiming to be 150 year of age or so. Scammers are making money on both ends, the people of Hunza and the foreign book writers.


A Hunza resident has a tour guide business in Hunza for foreigners to see the people, gardens, and the surrounding rivers and mountains. He has written me several times in the last two years. He has NEVER contradicted anything on this web page. He is a very friendly and pleasant person. I enjoyed immensely each of his emails. I only get hate mail from English speaking vegetarians, never from the residence of Hunza.


Read (http://biblelife.org/hunza.htm)at the site.

So, I guess now is the time to look for proof they live to 145 years of age. Statements of "it is believed" or "It's been reported" are not facts. Is it conceivable that people have moved to the region to capitalize on the tourist aspect of "live to 145" or "See the longest lived people"? Eskimos have said their almost all meat diet is highly beneficial, and they live long lives. I know some of you will discount the information I just dug up cause it's from a site that has bible believers and some here like to discount anything written by a bible believer. I look for truth and factual data. Supply some of that, and I am game to learn. What the site I just found shows is not the same story of healthy people, happy people, or amazingly long lived people.

[K626]

The poor Hunza's colonised and re-colonised by western mythologies. :)

love

K

[ED209]

I did not 'dis your thread.' I responded to it. I do think it is misleading. I casually stated my source as being an anthropology course that I took. I took it at Cal State, if that matters. I stressed that I was going off of memory. So take it for what you will. I am not sure how I could have said that I don't agree with you in a different way as to appear to be more respectful. If someone can tell me how, that would be awesome.

Although, a simple google search shows that the claims to extreme Hunza longevity have not been substantiated by anyone and suspiciously seem to be sales fodder. It is commonly known that the part of the world that the Hunza call home, suffers from extreme poverty. Poverty is linked to poor health, low infant mortality rates, and shortened life expectancy no matter where you are. We also know that the Hunza do not keep birth and death records.

Do you know where/how Godefroy substantiates his claims? I just read through his 'Secrets of the Hunzas' and he gives no sources at all. He also says that they enjoy exceptional health, but that is in stark contrast to earlier ethnographies that discuss numerous terrible health and nutrition problems that the Hunza encounter. You may want to skim through John Clark's 'The Kindgom of the Himalayas.' It is from the 1950s, but does clearly demonstrate with authenticity that the Hunza are not exceptionally healthy to the extent claimed by Godefroy.

Here is a link to Godefrey's complete book that I found (there are no sources listed or references): Health Secrets of the Hunzas (http://www.educationalservice.net/ebooks/ebooks-001/eseb20090302_health-secrets.pdf)

Here is a link to Clark's complete ethnography: Hunza Lost Kingdom of the Himalyas (http://biblelife.org/Hunza%20-%20Lost%20Kingdom%20of%20the%20Himalayas.pdf)

If I can figure out a source for where the unique Hunza social age calculation comes from, I will post ASAP, but for now all I can offer is that I learned it in college.

[ThePythonicCow]

Welcome ED209 - and tsk tsk a couple of others who should know better.

I just deleted four posts that didn't contribute anything to this discussion that I could see.

[ED209]

Thank you for the welcome. I love Project Avalon...it is so addictive and interesting! :-)

[Buck]

Geez
US, this is so tiresome - you seem so heavily invested in using the tools of conflict, argument, insult and ego level mud slinging so deftly. The last time I said something to you I got a note from a moderator about my attitude, so when I see you mentioning reporting Celtman for reacting to your "contribution" to his thread I think it is only fair I drop in with my two cents. You carry a big club, always have. Maybe it is time to accept that you are a powerful force and to move it up a notch. Because if you are willing to let go of the ego level battle, maybe you can free yourself to move into a place of true service, where you can connect with truth in whatever form it presents itself. Even in a book like the one that Celtman mentions here- where fact is laced with fiction, where unsubstantiated rumors and tall tales have been embellished and distorted in the service of all manner of secret agendas, there is an underlying truth that is being offered, for those with eyes to see.

Like the bible, for instance.

Perhaps it is no longer a sufficient excuse to indulge in negativity by saying you are merely asking questions. The time has come for all of us to at least consider that we are participating in every experience, every conversation, everything- in a more substantial way than our "rational" intellect can possibly comprehend.

And if you must base your vantage point in the (prevailing paradigm of the ptb) Newtonian mechanics of debate and argument- consider at least starting with the modern equivalent of the parable of the mustard seed- and take it to quantum level. Then we can really get to the truth about the 'facts'.
with love and respect to all-

[karelia]

Taking mod hat off, in case you wonder.

Having read this entire thread now, I feel the need to remind you that just because you "learn" something at university or read an article by some academic doesn't mean you learned the truth. The biggest mistake the vast majority of Westerners make when it comes to looking at third world countries is that they see everything from their point of view. If the writer/teacher cannot imagine what it's like to live without a medical system, then of course they pity anyone who does so. I've had access to medical care all my life, but guess what – my health only improved once I turned my back on it. So, please, take a step back, leave your arrogance at the front door and LOOK at other nations/races. Maybe you will *gasp* LEARN from them instead of reeling in your superiority and thinking, We have it soooooo good while those poor bastards don't even have toilets in the house.

The Hunza people live in the Himalayas, in a region just low enough to avoid altitude sickness, accessible enough to enable anyone who wishes to visit, and high enough to have the cleanest air I've ever breathed. I visited in 1988, and I will NEVER forget the feeling of breathing in that air. Of course it's a hilly area; it's the Himalayas after all! So of course it looks like they all work hard walking up and down this hill or that hill, but they do it from the minute they can walk, so what's the big deal? If you grow up that way, it doesn't feel like work, let alone hard work; it's simply a way of life. The same goes for the diet: If ever you get a chance to eat apricots from Hunza, goodness, run, don't walk! Nowhere else will you find apricots as good as those grown in Hunza. They are a staple of the diet because they grow in abundance, they are easily dried, and even the kernels are edible (and unbelievably healthy to boot. So healthy they were banned in various Western countries!). Of course they don't eat much meat! They are a normal people! They haven't been corrupted by endless advertising nor a Meat Council who tells you meat is really good for you and therefore the more meat the better and the more GMO-fed the better ad nauseum. They use their common sense when it comes to living. They eat what's in season, and when nothing is in season they eat what they preserved from the last season. You can call that healthy living. Why would they need "health care," which really should be much more appropriately named "sick management care"? Why would they need pre-natal care??? Goodness, gracious me, how on earth did humanity survive for thousands of years without the Rhogam shot, without the endless pre-natal checks and ultra-scans and flu shots??? Oh, hang on, all those are gimmicks to increase profits. Why would people with common sense need those? Their way of birthing is still natural, the way it should be, with the women of the family and from the neighbourhood in the room, saying the right things at the right time and doing the right things at the right time to ease the pain and make the new mother as comfortable as possible. This is the way it should be. If you think that today's Western way of giving birth is anything remotely human, then you have a lot to learn.

Their days are filled with surviving, just like your days are filled with that purpose, but you know what? These people still have enough time to get together in the evening, to dance, to dine together, to play together, and to simply live in joy, the ability of which many if not most in the Western world have lost. They have time to take an hour out during the day to share a cup of tea, to share the joys and the pains of the neighbours, and yet their work always gets done.

There is so much we could learn from such communities, if only we looked instead of feeling superior about having things we never needed.

[K626]

Great post Karelia.

They might not live that much longer but I bet time goes slower. ;)

love

K

[Arrowwind]

Clearly some on this thread do not have an interest in getting to the truth.
They will believe what ever they read and do not want to see opposing views.
There is nothing positive in believing misinformation
And there is nothing positive in keeping one's mind closed to new possibilities.
Now, I cant say where the truth stands on this matter of the Hunza
But the reactions going on here are quite astounding!

Perhaps we should send out an Avelon Team to visit Hunza land.
From my reading it shouldn't cost too much because they only let you stay a few days
... not long enough to figure anything out.

I see nothing that has shown to me that United Serenity is being negative.
Just that she doesn't swallow everything sent out.
What is wrong with wanting or seeking verification?

I post a lot of stuff on this forum... some quite strong opinions
some presented as facts as I see the world regarding what ever the topic is.

Anyone who accepts what I have to say without doing their own research is a dam fool.
They need to find out for themselves.
We, I, you, them, can only provide clues, keys, research, opinions, ideas and tall stories.
Everyone has to discern the truth for themselves.

I face this frequenlty with my experiences and beliefs about MMS.
Lots of folks think Im nuts. They have that right to disqualify MMS for disease treamtents.
I do not expect people to blieve me.... but I hope that they can believe in a possibilty
enough to go out and prove it one way or another to themselves.
What will be will be.

Persoanlly, my stance on the Hunza thing is that I would side with Clark,
this based in my knowledge of public health and what it takes to be healthy,
and diet and nutrition, all combined. I doubt the Hunza are the epitome of model health,
but perhaps they could be if they were a little better educated.
Apparently they dont eat goji berries... that would be a good start for them.;)
I live in an area not too different than Hunzakut, not quite as high,
but very similar terrain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunzakuts

[Arrowwind]

–
Of course they don't eat much meat! They are a normal people! They haven't been corrupted by endless advertising nor a Meat Council who tells you meat is really good for you and therefore the more meat the better and the more GMO-fed the better ad nauseum. They use their common sense when it comes to living. They eat what's in season, and when nothing is in season they eat what they preserved from the last season. You can call that healthy living. Why would they need "health care.

So what do they eat all winter, just dried apricots? I suspect these people eat a lot of meat in the winter, yak, goat, sheep and all the milk products they offer. One cannot live on apricots alone. Meat is one product that can hold over through the winter without decay if you know what your doing... and mostly that is keeping it alive on the hoof until needed. Meat I suspect is their winter seasonal source of protien along with milk year round.

Have you seen what they eat in the dead of winter?

[karelia]

So what do they eat all winter, just dried apricots? I suspect these people eat a lot of meat in the winter, yak, goat, sheep and all the milk products they offer. One cannot live on apricots alone. Meat is one product that can hold over through the winter without decay if you know what your doing... and mostly that is keeping it alive on the hoof until needed. Meat I suspect is their winter seasonal source of protien along with milk year round.

Have you seen what they eat in the dead of winter?

No, they do eat meat. When I said they don't eat MUCH meat, I meant it in comparison to the average American diet. They grow vegetables in Hunza Valley, too, and preserve those, and of course they have dairy (milk, yogurt, probably less cheese aside from paneer, perhaps). The point I was trying to get across is that those people live much more in tune with nature, which is very unlike the Western way of mindless consuming as much as possible and not giving a damn about consequences in either health or nature.

[ED209]

I never once said that academic perspectives were superior. Or that there is something inferior with the Hunza way of life. The professor that I got my information from worked as an NGO translator in the Himalayas. She was anything but conventionally academic and one of the most humane, genuine, kind people that I have ever met. Just because I learned something from a university does not mean it isn't the truth either. It certainly has more credence for me personally, and goes through more rigors than an online e-book with no references or even mention of the author acting as a primary source. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, K., regarding legitimacy and about not everything you learn in school being true, especially once you throw in a good dose of subjectivity -- but still, I have a problem really buying into this original post.

That said, poverty is poverty. Malnutrition is malnutrition. Mortality rates are mortality rates. I am not going to get day-dreamy and sentimental about how wonderful the Hunza lifestyle is. I am sure it is awesome day to day. But the region has a lot of poverty issues.

Prenatal care does not always imply high-tech. It also means simple things like having a mid wife that can recognize importance of hemmoragic warning signs to take preventative steps to save a mother's life.

As far as academia goes, especially in the social sciences, especially in this day and age, there is tremendous consideration given to avoid superiority complexes and to view the world through an empathic, non-judgement, culturally-competent lens and worldview. Judgements are quickly weeded out. Academia is very different now!

I don't want to blindly accept that people are living like 100 years over the life expectancy for their region of the world just because of apricots and food scarcity. Would I believe longer life? Yes! Would I believe less cancer? Yes! Would I believe less heart disease, no diabetes, etc.? Heck yes! But what about malnutrition? Or the genetic issues associated with small isolated gene pools? Obviously people that have died from malaria and malnutrition will not be there to smile at you and give you apricots. I really appreciate that you have at least been there, which I have not, but I just can't idealize the Hunza like this. They are human beings and they by default of their humanity, have problems too. Really, the only person that could say what is what would be someone who is Hunza, not you or me.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

I heard about Hunza long ago -- mentioned in the same breath as Vilcabamba and Georgia. (And also, more recently, Okinawa in Japan.)

I don't think it matters whether they live to 145, or 125, or 105. The learning for all of us in the western world, where food comes from supermarkets, yogurt is sweetened with aspartame, and no-one walks farther than to the postbox and back, is that there's a different way of living in the world which is itself rapidly becoming extinct.

Note that many elderly people in these areas cannot prove (or even properly remember!) their age. They never had birth certificates in that culture over 100 years ago. But they're in very good shape, and have certainly been around for quite a long time.

We also must remember that quality of life is critical. Age is not the only statistic. A 100 year old man in Hunza or Vilcabamba might still be riding his horse and tending his garden. A 100 year old man in London or New York is quite likely to be in a hospital, unable to cope on his own.

[ED209]

I think that is very well said and that you got to the heart of this matter quite perfectly and with tremendous insight. :-)

[karelia]

I never once said that academic perspectives were superior. Or that there is something inferior with the Hunza way of life. <snipped for space-saving purposes>

Hi ED209,

It wasn't my intention to slam the academic world; I simply pointed out something I see over and over again, and that is that arrogance that the Western world only sees everything from their point of view, and it has to be right in their view. I was by no means idolizing the Hunza way of life either, I was trying to encourage people to look at them from a different perspective than that of the privileged white/western human.

I doubt malnutrition is a problem there. Pakistan isn't India, and whilst there are many poor people, the majority do have enough to eat. Malaria isn't a problem as far as I know anywhere in Pakistan and least likely up in the mountains.

Genetic problems due to inbreeding are rampant all over the Indian Sub-Continent as well as the Arab world. If generation after generation cousin marries cousin, you end up with problems; it's inevitable. So that is a problem that isn't limited to the people in Hunza if it does exist there as well.

But overall, I maintain that we can learn from their way of life, just as we can learn from Natives all over the planet, if only we look and are open.

[13th Warrior]

I never once said that academic perspectives were superior. Or that there is something inferior with the Hunza way of life. <snipped for space-saving purposes>

Hi ED209,

It wasn't my intention to slam the academic world; I simply pointed out something I see over and over again, and that is that arrogance that the Western world only sees everything from their point of view, and it has to be right in their view. I was by no means idolizing the Hunza way of life either, I was trying to encourage people to look at them from a different perspective than that of the privileged white/western human.



The term that describes this attitude is "ethnocentric" and although "The Western World" contains many people with this sort of attitude it happens to be a rather common human condition...

[Buck]

who said anything about accepting what someone says as truth without discernment? That is a leap from what I wrote, or any other post I have seen on this thread.

And what is "misinformation" ? define.

I have been to the Himalayas. Recently. And thanks to the generosity of some of the people of that region, I had the good fortune to be shown that there are other forces at work that influence our health and longevity in much more profound ways than how much meat or berries we consume.

The real question is what is the value of that "truth" to you? Is it more important to disprove the chronological ages, the accuracy of the diets, the condition of their teeth? Or what if there something else Celtman wanted to share with you? Or what if I returned from the Himalayas with something special that I learned- an insight into something potentially far more important than what they were eating? Are you interested in hearing it? Are you ready? Or are you more invested in scrutinizing the mountain dust on my shoes laces and double checking my passport stamps? It's up to you.

Take a look at Bill Ryan's most recent thread regarding the true mission of Avalon. I have a hunch that Celtman's intent was inviting a much more subtle and profound conversation with this thread.

[CeltMan]

"But overall, I maintain that we can learn from their way of life, just as we can learn from Natives all over the planet, if only we look and are open. "

Thanks Karelia,

That is exactly the point that I was trying to convey, .... obviously I failed miserably!

I did however put in at the end that the Hunzas are not affected by pollution-of either: water, air, or food....or 'electronic devices'

The accounts were from a medical doctor, who actually lived with the hunzas for a lenghty period of 7 years. So he had ample time to study them, their lifestyles, diet, health etc,.

No of course we cannot prove what age they live to, but the rest still stands as a testiment to what healthy living can do for us.
I can say that I have taken positive lessons from what I have learned, and have applied them where possible.(bearing in mind that I live in a 'modern society'-with all that entails!)

Bill: "Note that many elderly people in these areas cannot prove (or even properly remember!) their age. They never had birth certificates in that culture over 100 years ago. But they're in very good shape, and have certainly been around for quite a long time.

We also must remember that quality of life is critical. Age is not the only statistic. A 100 year old man in Hunza or Vilcabamba might still be riding his horse and tending his garden. A 100 year old man in London or New York is quite likely to be in a hospital, unable to cope on his own. "

I totally concur.

[ED209]

How is one supposed to intuit what you are saying about intangible spirituality from that original post from Celtman? The post looks like it is about using a specific diet to increase longevity. I just don't get a message about enriched spirituality and connectedness from it.

Please don't assume that I am incapable of open-mindedness just because I read something that talked about tangible, measurable things and responded to them in a way that addressed tangible and measurable things, albeit casually, but in part because the original source links are pretty casual. I originally responded because I thought the idea of living that long was fascinating, so thanks to Celtman for that.

I dunno...who knows...I probably am missing the point. Would you mind telling me how to find the Bill Ryan post about the mission of Project Avalon? I looked but I am not sure where it is. I would greatly appreciate the help with that.

[karelia]

I think THIS (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48125-The-Spiritual-Conspiracy) is the post referred to with regard to the mission of PA.

We're all here to learn, and sometimes things are tougher to learn than others. *shrugs* We'll all get there in the end.

[CeltMan]

How is one supposed to intuit what you are saying about intangible spirituality from that original post from Celtman? The post looks like it is about using a specific diet to increase longevity. I just don't get a message about enriched spirituality and connectedness from it.

Please don't assume that I am incapable of open-mindedness just because I read something that talked about tangible, measurable things and responded to them in a way that addressed tangible and measurable things, albeit casually, but in part because the original source links are pretty casual. I originally responded because I thought the idea of living that long was fascinating, so thanks to Celtman for that.

I dunno...who knows...I probably am missing the point. Would you mind telling me how to find the Bill Ryan post about the mission of Project Avalon? I looked but I am not sure where it is. I would greatly appreciate the help with that.

ED,

Here is the part you missed in my original post: "The Hunzas practice slow & deep breathing and yoga techniques.

The Hunzas also practice short meditation sessions a few time throughout the day.

Their day starts at 5am, and as there is no electricity they go to sleep at nightfall.

What is also extraordinary about the Hunzas, is that: there are no banks there; no prisons, …& NO DISEASES!

Apart from the influences of: diet; pacing oneself; exercise; breathing; etc it must be said that they have pure; air, water, & food."

What i was attempting to convey, was that by living a 'healthy, body, mind' existence, one MIGHT, just live a longer and more worthwhile existance.

Thanks for your belated 'thanks' for my O.P..no ego involved here, was only attempting to share what I thought in my misguided way, was positive info...lol

Cheers

CMan

p.s. A belated welcome to P.A. from me also

[ED209]

Thanks so much for the link, Karelia. I did read that earlier.

[ED209]

Hi CMan,

Lol...I didn't miss that. But thank you, I see why that is important. Just curious...aren't the Hunza muslim? Is the meditation referring to traditional daily prayer?

[modwiz]

Somehow, I'm not feeling the love...............yet.

[CeltMan]

Hi CMan,

Lol...I didn't miss that. But thank you, I see why that is important. Just curious...aren't the Hunza muslim? Is the meditation referring to traditional daily prayer?

Hi Ed,

I cannot in all honesty speak for their relgious persuations.

I 'meditate' daily,(absent healing & 'manifestatuion/intent/collective conciousness') no big deal, and at best, (despite having been a: Catholic, Christian, Shinto, etc) i merely 'tune into nature/ & the one true source'.

So its possible that the Hunzas did/do the same? (Please don't anyone shoot he messanger ..again!)

Also interesting to note that they had become a 'peaceful people over past 200 years' - after several centuries of 'raiding neighbouring communities for supplies'.

Perhaps shows that we can evolve,- if we have the motivation, and are left alone to do so?

I was never saying that their existance was/is perfect, but I for one hope we can take some good and feasible parts and emulate them?

Cheers

[ED209]

Yeah...I did shoot the messenger, my bad. And my apologies.

This is what I get for trolling the Internet instead of doing the work piling up on my desk. Stop me if I do it again!

[LarryC]

<< Although, a simple google search shows that the claims to extreme Hunza longevity have not been substantiated by anyone and suspiciously seem to be sales fodder. It is commonly known that the part of the world that the Hunza call home, suffers from extreme poverty. Poverty is linked to poor health, low infant mortality rates, and shortened life expectancy no matter where you are. We also know that the Hunza do not keep birth and death records. >>

The statement "poverty is linked to poor health, etc." sounds like a cliche from a textbook or government report. Poverty by whose standards? I'm not claiming to be an expert on the Hunza, but the fact is that by modern Western standards any "primitive" people are extremely poor. But that doesn't mean anything if they aren't living according to the same type of economic model. You mentioned anthropology. Isn't the anthropologist supposed to be able to see the culture he/she is studying from that culture's perspective?

If they don't keep birth and death records, that indeed makes it hard to substantiate any claims -including the one that says that most of them die in their 50s (someone else posted that in this thread).

Finally, there's an interesting thing to keep in mind when speaking of longevity and especially when comparing modern and primitive societies. There's little argument that less advanced cultures have a higher infant mortality rate. That's one of the few clear cut advances Western medicine has made. Yet it also distorts the picture. Consider the following article, which suggests that actual longevity has hardly improved at all in modern times:

http://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-000-years.html

[CeltMan]

Yeah...I did shoot the messenger, my bad. And my apologies.

This is what I get for trolling the Internet instead of doing the work piling up on my desk. Stop me if I do it again!

Ed,

You've got me thinking, ........a serious question.

Q. I wonder if there is any way (with our 'advanced Western science') of proving how old a person is, either whilst they are alive or deceased.

I mean, I know one can tell from a tree by 'counting its rings'....but with us hoomans??.....lol

This is one for my older Bruv?... a retired senior microbiologist.

p.s Apology accepted.

p.p.s. Modwitz,...feeling the love yet mate?..........lol ;)

[WhiteFeather]

Do we have anyone on this forum from Hunza that can interject here? Wouldnt that be a trip.

[ED209]

I don't think the Hunza are primitive at all. They are simply a people that are living within very meager means. That entire region of the world struggles with poverty in terms of access to health care and food. I didn't necessarily mean poverty as we would define it in the US or EU with a definitive monetary marker. I meant poverty as in many Hunza live in a place with few resources..no hospital, little access to education (despite the fact that the Hunza actually greatly value formal education), little food. Stuff that they would consider markers of wealth or even just comfort.

Awesome point about life expectancy, btw!

[The Truth Is In There]

i guess the reason why many people are fascinated with allegedly "long-lived" people is that they'd like to live that long as well, and help that along by incorporating the diet of these people.

what many seem to forget, however, is that it's very unlikely that anyone living in a "westernized" country will be able to reach such an advanced age by adopting a "hunza-like" or any other supposedly healthy diet because of other factors that contribute to the destruction of the physical vehicle, such as toxins in air, water, soil etc. and even in the food itself, as carefully selected as it may be. there are probably not very many chemtrails over the hunza territory but a lot over all of our gardens where we try to grow healthy food.

my point is this, adopting a certain diet that works for a certain group of people in a certain territory won't do you much good if the conditions in which you live aren't similar and if the basics of proper nutrition aren't considered as well.

for instance, one thing that's absolutely essential for a long and healthy life but that many people are quite unaware of are enzymes. nobody on a diet that consists of mostly cooked food will get very old because the body's enzyme stores get depleted rapidly if they're not replenished on a regular basis.

that's especially noteworthy since the hunzas seem to consume grains on a regular basis which are not only harmful to the human body because of enzyme inhibitors and phytotoxins but also need to be cooked or baked in order to be more or less digestible by humans (unless they're fermented), thus depleting enzyme stores, raising blood sugar and insulin to unhealthy levels and increasing physical decay. the same is true for diets that incorporate lots of fruits because fructose is basically a slow working toxin in any but very small amounts.

bottom line is this - people can dream about getting very old by eating or living like certain people but it's unlikely that their efforts will meet with success if they don't understand how the body and metabolism functions and how they can counter the problems that may develop while they're on a certain diet. that's specially true for vegans and vegetarians, not to mention "fruitarians".

[Arrowwind]

So what do they eat all winter, just dried apricots? I suspect these people eat a lot of meat in the winter, yak, goat, sheep and all the milk products they offer. One cannot live on apricots alone. Meat is one product that can hold over through the winter without decay if you know what your doing... and mostly that is keeping it alive on the hoof until needed. Meat I suspect is their winter seasonal source of protien along with milk year round.

Have you seen what they eat in the dead of winter?

No, they do eat meat. When I said they don't eat MUCH meat, I meant it in comparison to the average American diet. They grow vegetables in Hunza Valley, too, and preserve those, and of course they have dairy (milk, yogurt, probably less cheese aside from paneer, perhaps). The point I was trying to get across is that those people live much more in tune with nature, which is very unlike the Western way of mindless consuming as much as possible and not giving a damn about consequences in either health or nature.
Granted, these people will eat much more in tune with nature seeing that thay have no refrigerators, packaged foods, chemical preservatives, etc. I even wonder if they have canning jars? I think that may not be likely due to the need to replenish them and their lids frequently.

I do not assume that eating in tune with nature will always equate to better health. One must look to see if the local nature provides all that is needed in sufficient quantity year round to prevent misscarriage, low birth weight, birth defects, neonatal death, rickets, goiter, other vitamin D3 deficency diseases, other nutritional deficency diseases and poor immune response with associated infection rates.

Im sure its a big plus for them being disassociated from our chemical and drug laden world and being able to drink pure living water and breathe clean air.