Bible Topics and Questions [Archive] - The Project Avalon Community Forum

kreagle

17th August 2012, 06:34

After much prayer,.....thought,......discussion with an Avalonian member, (dearly loved and respected by "all", here),......and also at the "wise council" of one of our moderators, Kristin,.....I have elected to launch this "new thread",......."Bible Topics and Questions".

I have prayerfully chosen to name this "new thread" as such so that it should always be accommodating to the various Biblical subjects that I'm sure we will all be covering in the near future.

Kristin gave some very wise council as to how this "new thread" should operate, which of course is in compliance with the overall Avalon rules and guidelines. If anyone has any questions, regarding her post, it is linked here for your convenience........
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35019-the-Bible&p=528083#post528083

*******OP UPDATE FOR CLARIFICATION*******

This thread is NOT designed for 'debate purposes'. I intended for viewers to click on Kristin's link above in order for them to see, and understand this,....but many have not. This seems to be a very 'sticky situation' to some. Civil 'discussions',....where opinions may differ and are respectfully expressed, are certainly welcomed here. 'Debates',....never seem to follow the guidelines of 'respectability' and often wind up defined as follows,...."a debate is two teams with Boxing gloves waiting for Jerry Springer to ring the bell...". I cannot think of a better reason than this to exclude 'debates' from this particular thread.

Many thoughts and ideas have entered my "mind and heart" over the last several days in regards to an "initial thought provoking concept" to really get things "going in the right direction". After pondering on a couple of "ideas", I was ready to proceed, when suddenly I felt the "Spirit" stopping me dead in my tracks and hitting me right between the eyes with this simple word,..........."TRUST"!!!

I have actually had to "wipe away many tears", today, as I have pondered in my heart the magnitude of this "word",.....TRUST,.....and it's relationship to God and us!

In reality,......TRUST.......is the precursor to "another word" we call "CONFIDENCE"!

"TRUST", is exactly like the "Olympic sprinter" in the starting block,......who by "faith in his/her training routine",......."runs and completes" the race,......crosses the "finish line" and consequently...........gains "CONFIDENCE" in the whole process!

God's Spirit candidly asks today,......."With whom is your TRUST?"

Psalm 118:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

(Note to the "reader".......I am "fully persuaded" that this topic of "TRUST", in relationship to God, has bombarded "everyone of us",........including ME! Very painfully, I found out that it was "never God's fault" that this "TRUST" was breached, but because of the influence and/or interference of "mankind"! As in the case of my "illustration above",.....I was allowing my "TRUST" in God to be adversely affected as I was endeavoring to....."run my course"! Consequently I "allowed myself to be temporarily knocked out of the race",.......and delaying my "ultimate goal" of......"finishing the race"!! All of this simply occured because of a "few select individuals" who were masquerading about as "fellow sheep",.....but in reality proved to be "wolves in sheep clothing"! Never again!,......lesson learned,.....the hard way!)

Needless to say,.....it's my most "heartfelt desire" that this "new thread"......"Bible Topics and Questions" gets out of the starting blocks,....."properly".......and is "allowed to run a long, long, successful race",......all the way to the finish line,......where you and I, "all of us", can "raise our hands in victory"!

Hebrews 12:1-3
King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Let's discuss any "issues you've had" over "TRUST" and what you've been personally exposed to. I think it would really help us all in our "overall race", my friends.

Your friend, brother, and servant,............kreagle

Joe Akulis

17th August 2012, 18:10

Good day, kreagle.

Well, I'll toss out one of my biggest issues with trust. It has to do with trusting people who presume to be in positions of authority or expertise on doctrines related to the bible. I was raised a cradle catholic. I am now a little bit of everything, and nothing if not a complete wonderer. (Not a typo there, I didn't mean "wanderer", but there is some of that too.) I mainly just wonder at everything now. I think I've always been that way, it just took some good catalysts to dislodge me from the traditional catholic path.

We trust most professors of religion or most christian priests when they explain the things in the bible to us. After all, they've been to the Seminary, they're the theologists, not us. But part of the problems begin right there. They are not helping you to form your own system of beliefs by letting you do the seeking. They are saying, "This is your faith. Hold to it." It's more like they are giving it to you, or as they will say, "passing it down."

IF what they were teaching us was the most accurate truth to be known at present, then I would not have any issues with trust at all. But I believe there are flaws in what gets handed to us. For example, the majority of Christian teaching suffers from one dreadful flaw: the refusal to approach the subject of reincarnation; to study it, and to learn about it. After all, Jesus taught it.

Once a year in most Catholic churches you will hear them read aloud the passage in the new testament where Jesus asks, "Whom do men say that I am?" Do people start answering by saying things like, "You're gonna be our new king." Or, "You're the greatest prophet and healer of our day." Not really. They start guessing the names of dead people. "Some say you are Elias." (A dead guy.) "Or one of the prophets." (More dead guys.) It's something people with an understanding of reincarnation like to guess about great men. They wonder at who else they might have been in a past life.

Look, I could go on and on about all the other places in the bible where it's clear that Jesus not only taught about reincarnation and its influences, but also that the people he walked amongst already had some understanding of it to begin with. Whether you allow the same misleading interpretations to explain the weirdness of such passages away as nothing, well that is not something you can help someone with if they are not seeking. My point is, I think one of the greatest abuses of our trust is when the Christian faithful have their "truth" taught to them in such a way that we live our lives believing that we get only one life, and then we get "judged" when it's over. And anything that doesn't fit into that mold gets explained away as "God's mysterious ways", when in truth more things are explained with an understanding of reincarnation than wihtout it. And when you begin to understand that certain talents that you develop in one lifetime can be carried with you into the next, (read up on the story of Peter Teekamp), life changes, and the damoclean sword of "death" that christians are always so fearful of, "Will I be saved?", turns into, "I wonder what my next adventure will be?" "What else can I do with this lifetime that will be a fruit to aid and make my next one more pleasant?" "What might be some of the challenges or goals that I set out for myself before I began this life?" After all, you don't really think that a child who can play perfect Mozart on the piano at the age of 4 is one of "God's mysterious ways", or just "incredibly gifted", do you? I bet Jesus would tell you that they spent a lifetime or more getting good at it.

Or how about the big one: "Are some of the bad things in my life a result of something I brought upon myself in a prior life?" Why ELSE do you think Jesus' desciples would see a blind man in the street and then ask Jesus what that man or his parents did that he should be born blind?? They're inquiring about the karmic repercussions that this man might have brought upon himself in a past life. Part of the curiosity over it is because sometimes problems in a person's life can be a result of the cosmic justice that Jesus established in the first place, (if my theory about him being our Logos is correct), or other times it can simply be chosen by that person for a purpose. As Jesus explained in that case. The point there being, Jesus was able to tell why, and they couldn't. And if I was pals with someone who could very easily know these reasons for things being a certain way when people have problems in their life, I would be hounding him with questions like that all the time. Asking Jesus why a person was born blind, could that be called a small form of "regression therapy"? This knowledge can change "Well, God is mysterious in his ways," into "Oohhhh, I see..." Wonder. Learning about reincarnation and karma, to me, made this a more beautiful and just universe where you get out of it what you put into it. And where you have infinitely more freedom to walk whatever path you want to take.

Are there other Christians who have crossed the line from the "one lifetime" belief system over into reincarnation territory like me? If so, do you think there is a freedom that the understanding of reincarnation brings the more you learn about it? Could it be that this is something that was intentionally repressed when the romans and the catholic church decided to call reincarnation a heresy?

Well, I'll turn the thread over to someone else. I'm interested in hearing other opinions on the subject, or to hear what other neat things people have learned about it. (Maybe we could talk about the possibilty of a female in a previous life who is a male in this one. Or vice versa.) Oh my!

Unified Serenity

17th August 2012, 18:15

Elias refers to Elijah, and he was taken and did not see death. There are two of those in the bible and are believed to be the two end days prophets that will challenge anti-Christ. So, that bit of info does not play into the reincarnation aspect. There is talk of older esoteric texts that would support and idea of reincarnation, though Hebrews says it's appointed for man to be born once and then face judgement. I personally do not get my panties in a wad over this subject. I just like to keep things factual when it comes to biblical exegesis and discussions.

Joe Akulis

17th August 2012, 18:44

Yes, I know it refers to Elijah, but I didn't want to alter the original King James version of the quote. So that shouldn't be characterized as some kind of misstatement of fact.

As far as your notion of Elijah being an end-days prophet, are you saying this prophecy is a "fact", and that this is why people were guessing that Jesus was Elias/Elijah? I don't suppose that your understanding of that "fact" stems from what was written in Malachi chapter 4, does it?

Curious.

Kindred

17th August 2012, 18:49

nurgle

17th August 2012, 19:15

Beren

17th August 2012, 19:30

I wrote many times about this subject on various threads and it always pops back up. This shows all that inevitably there is something that`s in Bible which is quite telling. Current versions are with 66 books inside but some versions have more or less texts.

Core message of Bible is Love God and Love your neighbor. This is confirmed by Jesus.

Despite this being the core message there are many more which are hardly understandable and even Peter says something about this in one of his writings that got into Bible :

II Peter 3:

14 Therefore, dear friends, with this to look forward to, make every effort to have him find you at peace, without spiritual stains or blemishes. 15 Think of our Lord’s patience as an opportunity for us to be saved. This is what our dear brother Paul wrote to you about, using the wisdom God gave him. 16 He talks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in his letters are hard to understand. Ignorant people and people who aren’t sure of what they believe distort what Paul says in his letters the same way they distort the rest of the Scriptures. These people will be destroyed.

It`s clear as a day that Bible got many interpretations by many people.

Key for correct understanding of its writings and also many other texts outside of Bible is the holy spirit.
And this is a gift from God.

To whom?

To all with an open heart and soul that is willing to do good.

Last but not the least is that God was and is sharing its wisdom and holy spirit with anyone God so chooses wherever and whoever that person may be.
Christian preacher or native Indian or Zulu tribesmen ...
God cannot be limited whom will he grant his spirit and neither should we put any limits of God`s mercy.

kreagle

17th August 2012, 21:31

So as to avoid any potential 'pitfalls' for the life of this thread, I have a few questions for the OP (kreagle).

1 - Do you feel the Bible to be the inalienable and unadulterated Word of God, or, do you see this work as more a Parable for Greater Truths, Yet to be truly Understood? What 'constraints', if any, do you place on what is 'admissible' for discussion?

2 - Are you open to discussing the 'proscribed' books and works that are both contemporaneous, or predate the 'official' versionS of this text?
e.g.: Book of Enoch, the writings and concepts of Gnostic scripture (which were Removed from the 'historical' record of 'the bible', due to some machinations of the Holy Roman Empire, some 300 years, AD

3 - Are you open to discussing Newer works that help explain some aspects of history, relative to 'the Bible'.

Answers to each of these questions will help establish for all who wish to comment, the Purpose and Focus of said thread.

In Unity, Peace and Love

Kindred,

Thank you for your interest and opening remarks. The link that I supplied in my OP, by Kristin, gave pretty much what should be considered "admissible" for discussion. A "few select posters" on that particular thread were attempting to disprove most, if not all, of the Bible,....hence "not allowing the Bible to speak". This was totally opposite of the desires of "that OP",.....and, likewise, "this OP", too. This OP is designed to be a place where "all" can share their personal experiences concerning the Bible. It's a platform for personal growth,....if used correctly,.... with the right frame of mind and spirit.

As to your "3 questions",.....I don't see any real potential problem with them as long as they "meet the simple criteria indicated here", and are not designed and crafted to disprove, denounce, or discredit what the Bible already states.

1) Yes, I do unequivocally believe the Bible is the Word of God, (I personally use the KJV, but to "each his/her own")......and yes, I do believe that there are things "yet to be fully understood",.....(especially in the Book of Revelation).

2) "other Books".......(Book of Enoch, Book of Jasher, Book of Gad the Seer,...and others)
are "mentioned and referred to".... in the Bible, and as such, should not be "excluded" from one's personal development, in my opinion.

3) Yes,....as long as it fits in the "simple framework and criteria" as listed here.

Let's "all" look forward, with much anticipation, to "enriching and fulfilling" discussions concerning His Holy Word,.....shall we?

(Important Point)

I want it to be "expressly known" that I, in no way, view this "thread" as "mine,....or my thread". This is "our thread"!!! I strongly encourage everyone involved to "take complete ownership" of "Bible Topics and Questions" and learn to "share and relay" your personal knowledge of the Scriptures! This can be enriching if utilized correctly!

Your brother, friend, and servant,.............kreagle

kreagle

18th August 2012, 07:41

seeker1972,

Thank you, so much, for your input,....and let me be one of the first to extend a "hearty welcome" to you,...here at Avalon.

your partial quote.........

Well, I'll toss out one of my biggest issues with trust. It has to do with trusting people who presume to be in positions of authority or expertise on doctrines related to the bible. I was raised a cradle catholic.

You bring up several good points and I also noted, right off the bat,.......that you, too,....have been "hurt and seemingly somewhat wounded" by mankind. You may recall reading in the OP that I referred to some of "my experiences", so even though "our stories" may differ "in actual content",......I don't doubt that results were "just as profound and difficult" for you, too! My advice to you, in this regards, is to certainly not allow what "others", (whoever they might be), prohibit or keep you back, from obtaining what is "rightfully yours to begin with"! God definitely has a "plan and purpose" for your life,....(as He does for "all" of us),....if you are willing to "recognize and heed" His call upon your life, my friend.

another partial quote, by you......

But I believe there are flaws in what gets handed to us. For example, the majority of Christian teaching suffers from one dreadful flaw: the refusal to approach the subject of reincarnation; to study it, and to learn about it. After all, Jesus taught it.

You also appear to have developed an admiration for the concept of "reincarnation". You are certainly not the first to "misconstrue" what the Bible is actually saying,....which in turn,.....leads to you to believe that It is supporting "reincarnation",.....which, in fact,......It does not. Unified Serenity was certainly correct in her short reply to you,.....and I will give and quote, for you, the passage she was alluding to.......

Hebrews 9:26-28
King James Version (KJV)

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

While the "concept of reincarnation" has, I suppose, an "attractive side to it" to those who wish to have "multiple chances to get-it-right",......I'm afraid this concept is, in all reality, built upon the "false and selfish wishes of mankind"!

you also quote......

Once a year in most Catholic churches you will hear them read aloud the passage in the new testament where Jesus asks, "Whom do men say that I am?"

Here is the passage you are referring to.......

Matthew 16:13-20
King James Version (KJV)

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

This dynamic passage of Scripture is certainly misunderstood by many,.....including "11 of the 12 disciples" who were "first hand witnesses" when it originally came out of the mouth of our Lord! The "only one" who understood the "full ramifications and divine nature" of this question by Jesus,....was Peter!

You see, all the "other eleven disciples" could focus upon concerning this "divine question" by Jesus,......was from a "human perspective only"! Jesus was earnestly looking for them,....(and the world),....to recognize Him in His full "Divine State",....as God, manifested in the flesh!,.....and "not just in his fleshly nature as a man!!"

Hence,.....we see the "unanimous reply of the eleven disciples" as they pondered the question and replied,......"Some say that thou art John the Baptist,(a man,...humanity),: some, Elias;, (a man,....humanity) and others, Jeremias,(Jeremiah,...a man,....humanity) or one of the prophets, (a man,....humanity)." ( No one recognized His Divine Nature,...as God, manifested in the flesh,....but.....Peter!)

(Two important points, here)

1) The above passage,....Mt. 16:13-20,.....was "exclusively intended" to bring out, and highlight, the "Divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ".

2) Peter, consistently "dug much deeper" into "understanding Jesus",...which is certainly prevalent in the above passage and also throughout the New Testament. Certainly, no one should be surprised that it was this "same Peter" who boldly took the floor, on the Day of Pentecost, in Acts 2: 37-40,.....and delivered "the plan of salvation for all times and ages" in a nutshell!! The "keys of the kingdom of heaven" were being fully implemented, here, by the one whose possession they were in, the Apostle Peter!! (v. 19 above)

I'm fully aware, seeker1972, that the "reply and answer" that I've shared with you, here, may not be "exactly what you were looking for",.....but I hope you respect the fact that I've endeavored to "stay within the confinements of His Word",......for inevitably that's what will......"set us free"!, my dear friend.

Please make yourself a "regular", here....on this topic..."Bible Topics and Questions"

I look forward to much further enriching dialogue with you!

Your friend, brother, and servant,.........kreagle

kreagle

18th August 2012, 08:20

Beren, my dear brother and fellow-laborer,

Key for correct understanding of its writings and also many other texts outside of Bible is the holy spirit.
And this is a gift from God. (see Acts 2:38)

To whom?

To all with an open heart and soul that is willing to do good.

Last but not the least is that God was and is sharing its wisdom and holy spirit with anyone God so chooses wherever and whoever that person may be.
Christian preacher or native Indian or Zulu tribesmen ...
God cannot be limited whom will he grant his spirit and neither should we put any limits of God`s mercy.

No "truer words" can ever be spoken,......."This, folks,....is for EVERYBODY"!!!

Revelation 22:17
King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

AND......

Acts 2:37-40
King James Version (KJV)

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Folks,....the "ONLY ONE" who can "exclude you",......is........"YOU"!!!

Thanks!, again, my dear brother!

Your friend, brother, and servant,.........kreagle

Krullenjongen

18th August 2012, 14:33

kreagle

18th August 2012, 19:49

I like this thread because it gives non christians a place to ask questions they have about christianity.
The problem i have is that people ask to many questions at a time.
For me it would be reaaly good if you could ask just one or two questions and save the rest until these have been answered.
Just a thought to keep it a little organised.

Reincarnation
I the text that Seeker is refering to the deciples answer what the people are saying (this is not what Jesus is saying) and it has a basis in the bible like Seeker is also saying (maliachi 4:5 see: http://bible.cc/malachi/4-5.htm )
So if you look closely the teachers of the law and the people were thinking this and this is not what Jesus taught. (as also confirmed by other texts that man only dies once)

Take for granted what you are taught.
I don't think it is wise to just take everything a christian teacher is teaching for truth.
We are warned in the bible that in the latter days there will also be a lot of false teachers and we should be carefull that we are not deceived. Personally i like to see a lot of references by teachers on what parts of scripture their teaching is based on. If it is not in the bible but just an interpratation than i reject it until i find supporting texts in the bible. I a way i am doing the same as the jews in Berea where Paul went to preach.
This is " These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11

Karma

Or how about the big one: "Are some of the bad things in my life a result of something I brought upon myself in a prior life?" Why ELSE do you think Jesus' desciples would see a blind man in the street and then ask Jesus what that man or his parents did that he should be born blind?? They're inquiring about the karmic repercussions that this man might have brought upon himself in a past life.

The passage you are refering to is this one:
"1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him" John 9:3

As you can clearly see Jesus answers that it is not because of the sins of this man or of his parents that he was born blind. Jesus does not confirm any previous life or sin of a previous life.
It could be that the jews of the time also believed like the nowaday catholics that there is something like original sin. That the fall of Adam is carried throught the generations.
I must say that i don't know why the deciples asked this question. I would have to study it more carefull.

Hope this clears thing up a little.

Krullenjongen

Krullenjongen,

Great post, my friend and brother! I really like the "insight" you have added here, which is very beneficial.

You are correct, indeed, in your observation about "many questions" at one time, and also trying to "keep things more organized". I have a "few ideas" that I have already been previously thinking of and intend to use, in an effort to properly address what you have brought out, here. You'll see what I mean, as the "thread" progresses over time.

You know, your point about "many questions",....and the desire to answer them "all", first, before moving on to the "next topic",......highlights another "potential problem" that we need to avoid. "Everyone", here, needs to be able to "have the freedom and flexibility" to "ask questions....and.....receive answers" at "different times". You see, each of us will randomly access this thread,...Bible Topics and Questions at "different times". As a result of this, some questions may need to be "re-visited and addressed, again" in order that "everyone" be properly included in the discussion(s). Just because a "particular topic" seems to have been answered, or covered, earlier,....doesn't mean that a "newcomer" might have "additional questions" on this same topic,.....and they deserve to be answered also.

As I continue to say,......this is "our thread",.....to benefit us "all"!!

Keep up the "great work", my friend and brother!

Your friend, brother, and servant,...........kreagle

kreagle

20th August 2012, 03:13

I say believe in whatever you like, whatever gets you through life on a positive note is awsome!

my concern is the bible has been rewritten though history to serve whatever the powers to be at the time were... different versions for whatever a person wants to believe or not believe in

nurgle,

Thanks for your input,.....and let me also extend a "hearty welcome" to you, too,....here at Avalon. The "family" just keeps getting "bigger and better"!

Your "concerns" over the Bible have "some" merit,.....but you need to understand that the "overall Truth" is still there for those who wish to obtain it. The "core Truth" is still "unblemished" and available to "all" who reach out for it! Whatever you do, my friend, don't allow yourself to "fall into the trap" of simply discounting and not believing the Bible, altogether,....like so many "others" have unfortunately done!

Two "particular Passages" stick out to me, regarding this........

Psalm 119:89
King James Version (KJV)

89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

and.......

Matthew 24:35
King James Version (KJV)

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

It's simply through these "two Passages" that convince me that His Word,....(overall),....has and will,.....survive any onslaught that Satan has endeavored to utilize in his efforts to undermine the precious Word of God!

However, the "greatest factor" that totally convinces me about God's Word is,.....MY EXPERIENCE!!! You see, nurgle, when I allowed the "seed of faith, within me",...(and we "all" have it....Romans 12:3),....to germinate and come to fruition in my life,......here's what happened to me!,.......

John 7:37-39
King James Version (KJV)

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

You see,.....when I "let my faith grow",.....and then believed upon Him,....."as the scripture hath said",......then I "EXPERIENCED" the reality of being filled with His Spirit, the Holy Ghost. When I began to speak in "other tongues", as the Spirit gave the utterance,......then, and then only,......did I come to realize and understand what He meant when He said,......"out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water"! (v. 38 above)

Of course, my friend, it will be necessary for you to have "this EXPERIENCE", also,.....for you to fully comprehend what I am trying to convey to you here.

I truly hope you find the time, and the need, to "travel down this same road" that I have spoken about to you. Satan, and this world, will do everything he/they can to convince you that "It's a dead end",.....but I can assure you it is not!

Your friend, brother, and servant.........kreagle

Frogweaver

20th August 2012, 04:08

kreagle

20th August 2012, 06:19

I just have some things I want to write about the New Testament. It is normal of Christian followers to believe that other masters of 'enlightenment' are going to hell... and this contradicts everything Jesus meant to teach his followers; and follower means doing as he does, which most do not do, including:.. Jesus said to keep God's laws, and the first law is thou shalt not kill, and people still eat meat which kills animals.

Jesus said "Heaven and Earth are more likely to disappear then the universal laws." He also said, "Judge and you will be judged". "Condemn and be condemned". Why then do Christians continue to say that masters like Buddha are in hell?.. or anyone?.. not only are they condemning and judging, but they are ignoring the fact that any man who lives by God's laws are doing God's will.. THAT is God's will, and therefore, how can they be judged, belittled, or condemned. When you can follow these simple laws then you are in line with God; which we all contain.

It's not that religion is bad, it's just that so often people use it as an emotional clutch and forget their personal journey of true faith and obedience.

Oh, and I apologize if I didn't live up to some specified guidelines for this post or thread. :p

Frogweaver,

First of all, congratulations on your "3rd day" here on Avalon. Boy!,....you are "brand new", so-to-speak,.....and we all want you to feel "right at home" and I want to be one of the "very first" to wish you a long, long, fruitful journey, here, my friend!

Certainly, there is no need for you to even "begin to apologize", in that, you are perfectly "in line" with your comments and concerns.

Let me address just a "few" of them........

partial quote by you......

Jesus said to keep God's laws, and the first law is thou shalt not kill, and people still eat meat which kills animals.

It is certainly correct to say that "thou shalt not kill",.....which, in reality is the Sixth Commandment, and not the First. One needs to realize, though, that God made this law, (Commandment), in reference to "human life" and not from the viewpoint that we, humans, were not to eat meat. It is in "strict violation" of God's Law to take life, or kill, each other, as humans,....but we have His blessings when it comes to "killing animals", in order to have meat to eat.

The following "passages of Scripture" should help you to see this......

1) Genesis 1:29-30

2) Leviticus 11: 46-47

3) Acts 10: 9-16

(notice: I will be happy to "expound" on the above passages, for you, Frogweaver, if you need any further assistance about this.)

another partial quote by you........

Jesus said "Heaven and Earth are more likely to disappear then the universal laws." He also said, "Judge and you will be judged". "Condemn and be condemned". Why then do Christians continue to say that masters like Buddha are in hell?.. or anyone?.. not only are they condemning and judging, but they are ignoring the fact that any man who lives by God's laws are doing God's will..

You, quite frankly, are "completely correct", Frogweaver, when you plainly state that "Christians",...(whoever they might be),....are completely "out-of-line" when it comes to "them" taking on the role of a "judge". It's when "they" do this that "they" are, in all honesty, placing "themselves" in the role of being "the ultimate Judge", whether they fully recognize it, or not! God doesn't need any help being God,......He is fully capable of "filling this Office,.....all by Himself"!

Hence we have the Scripture that you have alluded to, here.......

Matthew 7:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I'm afraid that too many "Christians",.....in their zeal to be God/Christ-like,....take things "entirely too far",.....and consequently are deceived into thinking that they are God, too, and are "ordained to judge, also"! This is a grave, grave, mistake!

I will respectfully submit, here, that we "all" better leave the "Office of God,....to God"!

Thank you, my dear friend, for your "valued input"!

I sincerely hope you will become a "regular", here on this thread!

Your friend, brother, and servant,.........kreagle

kreagle

20th August 2012, 10:15

Hey "everyone",

Just got through "reading and watching".......cloud9's thread on "Just another great story". What a "understatement" this is!

I have provided a link, in an effort to make sure "more of us" get to view this and be tremendously blessed.

Get ready to "have your heart tugged" and to "clear out your tear ducts", my dear friends!

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48794-Just-another-great-story&p=541293&viewfull=1#post541293

Your brother, friend, and servant..........kreagle

P.S. I have a "short comment" two posts down, (#3), on this great inspirational story. FYI

Krullenjongen

20th August 2012, 12:17

my concern is the bible has been rewritten though history to serve whatever the powers to be at the time were... different versions for whatever a person wants to believe or not believe in

They always ask evidence of us christians to support our belief in the bible and i don't mind giving it but to be fair i would like to see some evidence to support this statement.
It is said by many that the bible has been rewritten, where do these claims come from and what is te supporting evidence of this?

The fact is that there is more supporting evidence for the correctness of the bible than for any other ancient text. So if you doubt the correctness of the bible than you should never believe anything written in any other ancient text.
For this see: http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence
or this http://carm.org/evidence-and-answers

Krullenjongen

20th August 2012, 12:55

I just have some things I want to write about the New Testament. It is normal of Christian followers to believe that other masters of 'enlightenment' are going to hell... and this contradicts everything Jesus meant to teach his followers; and follower means doing as he does, which most do not do, including:.. Jesus said to keep God's laws, and the first law is thou shalt not kill, and people still eat meat which kills animals.

Jesus said "Heaven and Earth are more likely to disappear then the universal laws." He also said, "Judge and you will be judged". "Condemn and be condemned". Why then do Christians continue to say that masters like Buddha are in hell?.. or anyone?.. not only are they condemning and judging, but they are ignoring the fact that any man who lives by God's laws are doing God's will.. THAT is God's will, and therefore, how can they be judged, belittled, or condemned. When you can follow these simple laws then you are in line with God; which we all contain.

It's not that religion is bad, it's just that so often people use it as an emotional clutch and forget their personal journey of true faith and obedience.

Oh, and I apologize if I didn't live up to some specified guidelines for this post or thread. :p

Thou shalt not kill
There is a big misunderstanding about the commandment "Thou shalt not "kill" (even among christians)
This commandment does NOT mean that you may not take someone's life under any circumstance, it is not the blanket statement that many make it out to be.
Just think about it for a minute.....
How can God say "thou shalt not kill" and a bit later command the jews to go to war agains people in the promised land???
That just doesn't make any sense.
The commandment "thou shalt not kill" is therefor sometimes translated with "Thou shalt not murder" which makes the text much clearer and covers better the meaning of this commandment.
The commandment is about Unlawwfull killing resulting in bloodguilt!
In this case Wiki does a nice job in explaining this.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_shall_not_murder

Next to this argument i totally subscribe to Kreagle's words that the commandment is a rule among man and does not apply to man and animals. Otherwise God would again go against Himself because earlier He said people were allowed to eat animals.

Judgement
I don't think any christian should say that someone is in hell becuase you can never know this for sure.
You never know what this person did or did not do in his life or even the last moments of his life.
As we know there is always forgiveness if someone repents and genuinely asks Jesus for it.
So we will simply have to wait and see.

The topic of judgement is not straitforeward either.
Judgement has to do with punishment. If you judge someone this implies that you have decided that a person should be punished. And this is not the place of man but this task is only reserved for God.
I also believe this is so because rightfull judgement can only be spoken by someone who knows and sees everything, and only God sees and knows everything.
But does this mean that i can't make a judgement about what someone is doing???
If someone is lying and i would say "you are lying" is this a judgement? and am i allowed to do this? i think so!
I think we are talking here about discernment.
If i say you are lying it does not include a punishment it is just a factual observation and not a judgement.
God said in his commandment "thou shalt not murder" if i see someone kill someone else in cold blood why can't i say that person is a murderer?

Don't know how to explain it better, i hope you get my point.
If it is not clear than just ask away!

Krullenjongen

Pam

20th August 2012, 14:36

nurgle

20th August 2012, 16:25

They always ask evidence of us christians to support our belief in the bible and i don't mind giving it but to be fair i would like to see some evidence to support this statement.
It is said by many that the bible has been rewritten, where do these claims come from and what is te supporting evidence of this?

The fact is that there is more supporting evidence for the correctness of the bible than for any other ancient text. So if you doubt the correctness of the bible than you should never believe anything written in any other ancient text.
For this see: http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence
or this http://carm.org/evidence-and-answers

One example of a rewrite/translation is a big one, the King James Bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_james_bible

You can watch the TV Series the Tudors, and see how King Henry stretched religion to fit his marrying needs. I know the show is a fictionalized non-fiction but still the main ideas are there.

But I state again.....
Believe in what ever you like, I have no authority to judge, believe in whatever makes you stay positive and feel better.

kreagle

20th August 2012, 18:30

Krullenjongen my dear brother,

your quote.......

Thou shalt not kill
There is a big misunderstanding about the commandment "Thou shalt not "kill" (even among christians)
This commandment does NOT mean that you may not take someone's life under any circumstance, it is not the blanket statement that many make it out to be.
Just think about it for a minute.....
How can God say "thou shalt not kill" and a bit later command the jews to go to war agains people in the promised land???
That just doesn't make any sense.
The commandment "thou shalt not kill" is therefor sometimes translated with "Thou shalt not murder" which makes the text much clearer and covers better the meaning of this commandment.
The commandment is about Unlawwfull killing resulting in bloodguilt!
In this case Wiki does a nice job in explaining this.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_shall_not_murder

Next to this argument i totally subscribe to Kreagle's words that the commandment is a rule among man and does not apply to man and animals. Otherwise God would again go against Himself because earlier He said people were allowed to eat animals.

You did a "really nice job" of further expounding on the topic,....."thou shalt not kill", brother. ( See,......I told you that your insight was "very beneficial"!). In my response to Frogweaver, it was my impending "aim and purpose" to differentiate between the killing of "humans......vs.........animals". Consequently I did not go in the direction of "further explanation" that you, so nicely, did. I completely concur with your explanation, in that, you are right on point, my friend.

Thanks again for your "valuable input"!

Your friend, brother, and servant.............kreagle

Joe Akulis

20th August 2012, 20:20

kreagle

20th August 2012, 20:25

You also appear to have developed an admiration for the concept of "reincarnation".

First of all welcome Seeker 1972 I appreciate your heartfelt comments. I would like to get past the intellectualism of the scriptures for a minute. I too have studied the bible in the past so I am not ignorant of it..What I would like us to use our god given logic for a minute...Do you really want to worship a god that gives you one chance to figure everything out in this hellhole of civilization or you are going to hell?????? The more important question is do you want to be a worshiper of a tyrant who would do that? And one more thing-Does an all powerful god really want worship and adoration...What would you think of a mere human that had those requirements??I would call him a psychopath...This is not meant to be disrespectful but all the intellectual tearing apart of these verses reminds of of the Pharisee's of old.

peterpam,

Welcome to 'Avalon', in that it also appears you are relatively 'new' here, too.

In your comments you state........

I too have studied the bible in the past so I am not ignorant of it..

No doubt, in your 'studies', of God and His Word, you have come to the point of 'visualizing the fullness of God'. Evidently you don't like what you see.

Romans 11:22 KJV
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:,......

Yes, the Apostle Paul gives us all an 'accurate visualisation', here, of the 'big picture',....to which many people simply cannot handle. Instead of 'continuing your studies', so that you might fully understand the 'fullness of God', you appear to have chosen to join 'this ever growing crowd' of offended individuals. This is certainly within your 'rights and privilege',....if this is the path you wish to follow.

I wish you nothing but the best, my friend,......but candidly I must advise you to,.....'continue your studies'! You don't know what you are missing!

Your friend, brother, and servant.......kreagle

kreagle

20th August 2012, 22:11

seeker1972,

I've got a 'reply' for you,.....but I'm going to be 'out of pocket' for a little while. I will be able to give you a 'complete answer' later on, sometime late this evening.

You've brought up a 'very interesting subject',......and yes,.......there's 'something out there'!

Later,......my brother!

Your friend, brother, and servant.........kreagle

Frogweaver

21st August 2012, 01:37

It is certainly correct to say that "thou shalt not kill",.....which, in reality is the Sixth Commandment, and not the First. One needs to realize, though, that God made this law, (Commandment), in reference to "human life" and not from the viewpoint that we, humans, were not to eat meat. It is in "strict violation" of God's Law to take life, or kill, each other, as humans,....but we have His blessings when it comes to "killing animals", in order to have meat to eat.

The following "passages of Scripture" should help you to see this......

1) Genesis 1:29-30

2) Leviticus 11: 46-47

3) Acts 10: 9-16

(notice: I will be happy to "expound" on the above passages, for you, Frogweaver, if you need any further assistance about this.)

another partial quote by you........

Jesus said "Heaven and Earth are more likely to disappear then the universal laws." He also said, "Judge and you will be judged". "Condemn and be condemned". Why then do Christians continue to say that masters like Buddha are in hell?.. or anyone?.. not only are they condemning and judging, but they are ignoring the fact that any man who lives by God's laws are doing God's will..

You, quite frankly, are "completely correct", Frogweaver, when you plainly state that "Christians",...(whoever they might be),....are completely "out-of-line" when it comes to "them" taking on the role of a "judge". It's when "they" do this that "they" are, in all honesty, placing "themselves" in the role of being "the ultimate Judge", whether they fully recognize it, or not! God doesn't need any help being God,......He is fully capable of "filling this Office,.....all by Himself"!

Hence we have the Scripture that you have alluded to, here.......

Matthew 7:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I'm afraid that too many "Christians",.....in their zeal to be God/Christ-like,....take things "entirely too far",.....and consequently are deceived into thinking that they are God, too, and are "ordained to judge, also"! This is a grave, grave, mistake!

I will respectfully submit, here, that we "all" better leave the "Office of God,....to God"!

Thank you, my dear friend, for your "valued input"!

I sincerely hope you will become a "regular", here on this thread!

Your friend, brother, and servant,.........kreagle

Hi Kreagle, and thanks for your kind reply. :) I don't want to get too in to bible debate, so im sorry; even if that is the purpose of the thread, but it is my belief that all religions are the same, and they all point to the same truth. We are talking about scripture, and not necessarily the 'accepted' truth of what religious people believe, but our beliefs about the scripture and its foundation of truth. For in Buddhism you find the same truth. The same Laws of God, although spoken differently. And in Buddhism they teach that eating flesh is bad, and that eating animals is like cannibalism. I feel strongly that man should not eat animals, so that we may evolve to be greater.

In kind regards to what you said, yes somehow I missed that it wasn't the first commandment! hah. Let me make it clear that I am not religious and don't believe Jesus to be the only path to Heaven. Period. He was a prophet of God and I love him as I love God, this is true. . yet I don't believe that Jesus wished people to only follow him or worship him as an idol, for why else would he say "But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void." It is all about understanding the laws, god's laws, and the universal laws.. Jesus said, "A disciple is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully qualified will be like the teacher." This must mean that we can become like Jesus, enlightened masters.. Jesus has demonstrated that there are others like him, and if we obey god's law then we are like god as well, and this applies to Buddha, and master Ching Hai, and many others. Maybe not prophets.. "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I tell you?"

With regards to the eating of flesh.

Genesis: states that animals are for humans to rule over, not to eat. Please state where it says that they are for us to eat in the book of genesis. It says clearly that the food of humans was planned to be plants and vegetables, etc. When you rule over something, it does not mean eating it; such as ruling over a people.

Genesis:
"God said, "see, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has breath of life, I have given every plant for food."

At least, this is how it was in the days of Eden. We changed. .

So, I don't see how genesis supports eating of flesh. Animals we rule over yes, so that they can become like us, so that they can have opportunities to incarnate as human, as every living being desires to have.. just as we need a master greater then ourselves to become greater, so do animals!.. this is why we rule over them. But the bible does not explain everything about heaven and earth.. you need other scriptures to understand it, or teachings from other enlightened masters.

Leviticus: People offered burnt offerings to the supposed God.. but when have you ever known god to need burnt offerings?...this wasn't god in my opinion. The Mayans followed a similar path.. In this same chapter you learn of the 'clean animals to eat'.. You see a lot of 'killing in the name of the lord' in the old testament. And in my opinion, it wasn't God that instructed killing and murder.. for eternal God does not need such things.. it is not the God I have gotten to know in my recent awakening.. not a God that would ever want such things.. because God is inside all of us, and the God inside you loves all beings, and therefore does not wish them harm. This would surely never change as god is the unchanging god behind all of us.

What is NOT in the bible, is what is happening in this forum and in this age we are living in. We are evolving, and hopefully to be more compassionate and conscious human beings that do not kill.... if we continue to eat animals, then this world will be destroyed from global warming.. animal agriculture is the leading cause... it sounds like karma to me. Not a very smart god who would advocate eating flesh, when the karma from this act is destroying us as we populate..

"Foods for the belly and belly for foods, but god should destroy both it and them".. Here today we have a choice about what we can eat.. we can go back to the days of Eden, or we can destroy ourselves by continuing to eat meat.. the belly is not for your enjoyment of food. It is for survival. it is LOGICAL!

Acts: In this particular reference, it seems like an unlikely scenario. I'm sorry but I don't accept every word of this bible, or; collection of scriptures, (tampered with or not) as truth. It doesn't sound true. I like consistency, and what I don't like is the idea that this god of the bible is less loving then my own neighbor. I don't believe that permission even equates to gracefulness, especially when the times change, and the laws are different to follow according to the times you are in.

Thou Shalt Not Kill. Does not mean thou shalt not kill humans. Otherwise it would say this.. this is such a non-universal viewpoint to assume it is just humans... what a twisted world we live in!

The Purpose of the Parables.
'Looking they may not perceive, and listening they may not understand"......

The Lawyer who stood up to test Jesus.
"'And who is my neighbor?'
Jesus replied, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan while traveling came near him; and when he saw him, he was moved with pity. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, having poured oil and wine on them. Then he put on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took out two denari, gave them to the innkeeper, and said, 'take care of him; and when I come back, I will repay you whatever more you spend. Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?' He said, 'The one who shows him mercy." Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

Why are animals not our neighbors? are we to rule over them and not be neighbors? are we to be poor masters and cook them for dinner?.. what would Jesus do? did he ever hunt for food? other then a few fish, for what was left over to feed the multitude.. that is grace friend.

We see animals eating other animals, and we think.. 'if they do it, then we can too', but they are not our masters. Only since the days of Eden does it seem to be the way of things, as animals have learned aggressive nature from us.. if we want the lion to lay down for the lamb, then we have to do it first.

One law of the universe is; Karma. Another is; the law of attraction. We will reap what we sow with the blood we spill to animals, and we will attract more death and violence. What do you envision for paradise?... meat eaters?..... it sounds like the past all over again.

kreagle

21st August 2012, 06:01

kreagle, I'll leave the reincarnation stuff alone for now, unless there are others who express a desire to expolore that some more. You're answering the way most christian evangelicals do, so there's no point in pushing that topic, but I decided to pop back on and get your take on something else as I'm very curious about your thoughts on this one as well. It has to do with ET's. The more I have learned over the past two decades, from a lot of different directions, has pretty much convinced me that there are lots of different races from lots of other places. Once I started to think this, I had a problem, because you won't hear many priests talk as if that is a possiblity... Is there room in the bible for us to be one of thousands of races spread all over the universe? Is there room in the bible for the notion of multiple "dimensions"? Because when I think about the possibility of a 4th or 5th dimension where there could be other beings reaching into third dimension to assist us, I automatically relate that to what we describe as angels. How about you? Ever read any good ET books, or watch a good Ancient Aliens show and get convinced?

seeker1972,

Finally back, and now able to give you a more 'in depth answer', or my take as I see it, on the 'topic called ET's'. As I alluded to, earlier,.....I know 'something is out there', in that there are way to many credible sitings, and evidences, from a wide variety of people. The calibre of people who have come forth to testify, basically convinces me that they are not just 'making this up'. 'Everybody' associated with these sitings and events cannot possibly be "all" lying, of that I am quite convinced. As I told someone before,.....I, personally, have never seen an UFO, alien (ET), myself,....but I also have never actually seen a 'tornado' in person, either!,...( just video footage, only). Just because I've never actually 'seen a tornado with my own eyes' doesn't mean that they don't exist,....for they certainly do, in that I have personally witnessed the devastation that they leave behind! Yes,.....something is out there,.....but what?

I have covered this 'topic', in some of my previous posts, but will gladly do so again,.....drawing from my understanding of the Bible.

Simply put, these 'entities' are nothing more than the 'fallen angels', who were cast down to the earth, along with Lucifer (Satan),...when he endeavored to 'exalt himself' and said,...."I will exalt my throne",......and,......."I will be like the most High". (Isaiah 14:12-15)

They are ED's,....(extra-dimensionals),.....not....ET's., and their 'agenda is to deceive mankind', my friend.

Deception is their game,....and they are very good at it!

(point)

Just how successful do you think they would be,...."if" they were to readily admit that they are , indeed, ED's, (demonic entities,...."fallen angels"), like they really are and have been from the very beginning?

By posing to be something that they are "not",...ET's...., they are then able to accomplish their "agenda",.....that is to ultimately "rend souls away from God".

They also know that the "ET" appearance and phenomena is something that "we" humans will "buy......hook, line and sinker"! This has been an "extremely easy sale" for them over the last "several thousand years".

As with any "sale",........"BUYER BEWARE"!!!!

Is there room in the bible for us to be one of thousands of races spread all over the universe?

There is 'plenty of room in the Bible for us,....and ED's',.......but from a Biblical standpoint, I can find no room, or place, for ET's.

Let me explain........

You see,......."us",......and the "fallen angels", (or ED's),.....can easily be found and accounted for within the Scriptural Texts,...the Bible.

A "ET standpoint",......(from another 'planet, solar system, galaxy, etc.),......cannot be found, at all, or accounted for within the Scriptural Texts,....the Bible.

In reality, everything is Biblically, and logically, cleared up when we 'understand and realize' who they really are,....(ED's, extra-dimensionals.....or "fallen angels")!

And yes,......they are very much, REAL!

But so is 'our God'!, my dear friend!

Romans 8:31
King James Version (KJV)

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Your friend, brother, and servant........kreagle

kreagle

21st August 2012, 07:48

Frogweaver,

There are a 'few points' that I'd like to go ahead and clear up with you before we go any further.

I don't want to get too in to bible debate, so im sorry; even if that is the purpose of the thread

I think I need to advise you to go back to the OP and read what I posted,....then click on the thread by Kristin, Avalon moderator, which I have also linked, again, here for your convenience.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...083#post528083

This OP, and the posts that are contained in it, is not designed for a 'debate', but for 'Biblical enrichment' to "all" who wish to participate. That certainly includes you, too,.....along these 'described lines'. You state that you don't want to get in a Bible debate,....and nor do I,....and won't, my friend. If you will, once again, click on Kristin's link, you will find that she 'suggested that a Bible debate thread' could be started by anyone who desired to do so,.....but I won't participate if one develops.

In kind regards to what you said, yes somehow I missed that it wasn't the first commandment! hah. Let me make it clear that I am not religious and don't believe Jesus to be the only path to Heaven. Period. He was a prophet of God and I love him as I love God, this is true. . yet I don't believe that Jesus wished people to only follow him or worship him as an idol, for why else would he say "But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void." It is all about understanding the laws, god's laws, and the universal laws.. Jesus said, "A disciple is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully qualified will be like the teacher." This must mean that we can become like Jesus, enlightened masters.. Jesus has demonstrated that there are others like him, and if we obey god's law then we are like god as well, and this applies to Buddha, and master Ching Hai, and many others. Maybe not prophets.. "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I tell you?"

Now that you've revealed that you ascribe to the Buddhists faith, I understand where you are coming from with your opposition to killing and eating any kind of animals. This is absolutely your right to choose this 'faith' to believe in,.....but I have to tell you that your 'belief system' will not be in harmony with the Biblical Scriptures that we are talking about, here.

This is 'why' we are having problems,.....right from the start,.....as we meet, here, in this discussion, on this particular thread,....."Bible Topics and Questions".

You may have noticed also, that another fellow Avalonian, Levent tonga, has since started his own thread named,....."The Noble Qur'an Topics and Questions", just yesterday. What a 'coincidence'!!!

Perhaps it would be advisable for you to start your own thread,...."Buddhists' Topics and Questions", or whatever you may choose, and then you should be able to proceed with your faith in harmony with your chosen beliefs!

I must say, in closing, my friend Frogweaver, that I, in no way, am trying to avoid your 'many questions' that you've brought up,....it's just the 'answers' I am going to give you to virtually each one of them are not going to be in harmony with the 'Buddhist faith' that you have currently chosen for yourself. To continue under these circumstances would create nothing but anguish for yourself,....me,....and the many others who wish to ascribe to the Christian faith outlined in the Bible.

There were 'many Scriptures' that I,.....began to use,....then thought about it,....and consequently 'erased' and did not use, at all,....in my response to you, here. I have absolutely no desire to 'challenge you', here, because that would be completely counter productive and contrary to the design of the OP.

I hope you understand. I wish you nothing but the best, my friend

Love and Peace,.......kreagle

Joe Akulis

21st August 2012, 14:15

Frogweaver

21st August 2012, 16:06

Joe Akulis

21st August 2012, 17:33

Beren

21st August 2012, 19:23

Reading responses here made me think of this next simple thing;
namely you and me are currently living somewhere on Earth. Now we have neighborhoods and neighborhoods.
In some you `d want to live all the time but in some you`d be away of.

With some you don`t bother to even pass since they are ugly or others are dangerous by your opinion.
but some are just gorgeous and for some you heard they are cool and great!

What`s the common thing here?

The mutual point for all this is that we`re not alone. Simply because you`ve never been into other places around it doesn`t mean they ARE ugly or bad or even good.

You`d have to experience them first hand to see what you`re dealing with.

Same is with other beings in vastness of the universe.
Be them ED`s or ET`s it doesn`t matter, they are all part of God almighty.

We have instance of Paul saying that he knows a person (and then adds that he doesn`t know either in body or out of body) has experiences different levels of heaven and heard words that are unspeakable to this level of consciousness on Earth.
There was one explanation and I can`t remember where that actual translation was that what that man saw was unspeakable simply because he didn`t understood what he was seeing and didn`t know how to describe things there,thus unspeakable.

I want to point out that there are many things in Bible spoken of in where one has to rely on holy spirit for understanding and does not block the answer from spirit when it comes.

If the answer isn`t what you expected for then maybe it`s time to broaden your vista. To grow in understanding.

Why Jesus said to them that if they don`t eat his flesh and drink his blood that they would not survive?

Was that a blasphemy???

For many it was.

We need to grow in Christ.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Now speaking about food, first what they ate in garden was fruits only.
But reading deeper one sees that they barely needed food at all!
They were in perfect body soul spirit connection and I am inclined to think that if they wouldn`t eat they would be OK concerning that they were united with God directly.

kreagle

21st August 2012, 20:37

Hmm. I think I see your viewpoint. Any time someone thinks they are dealing with a being from some other place, it's simply a fallen angel using that ... manifestation?... of the ET to mess us up. Which means we are alone in this universe... Perhaps the rest of the universe is simply awaiting our evolution, so that we may extend our human frontiers out into it.

Do all ETs have to be evil manifestations created by malevolent, fallen angels? Why couldn't a benevolent, non-fallen angel use the same technique to do something to help one or more of us? There are an awful lot of UFO/ET experiencers who don't feel like the being/s they interacted with were evil... And didn't Jesus say something about evil being unable to masquerade as the light?

seeker1972,

You bring up a very interesting point, my friend.

Why couldn't a benevolent, non-fallen angel use the same technique to do something to help one or more of us?

These 'non-fallen angels',...(the good guys),.....that you refer to, here, do exactly this! They literally 'minister to the heirs of salvation',.....as seen in this passage.....

Hebrews 1:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Furthermore, the Apostle Paul warns the saints to always be 'hospitable' towards every 'stranger you might meet',......for you might never know just who you are 'actually entertaining'!

Hebrews 13:2
King James Version (KJV)

2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

There are an awful lot of UFO/ET experiencers who don't feel like the being/s they interacted with were evil...

This, my friend, is what can make this 'encounter' even more dangerous, in that the contactee doesn't even realize,.....'what they are truly dealing with'! Just because an 'entity',...(fallen angel, or ED) doesn't appear to be 'evil' doesn't mean that they, in fact,.....are indeed EVIL! It's all part of their 'deceptive plan'. This is the only 'mode of operation' that Satan and his minions utilize,.....and that's 'lies and deception', my dear friend.

And didn't Jesus say something about evil being unable to masquerade as the light?

The Apostle Paul clears this up for us also! Notice this 'piece of advice' that he gave to the 'church at Corinth' during one of his visits there.......

2 Corinthians 11:13-14
King James Version (KJV)

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

You see, seeker1972,.....even though 'these angels fell' it doesn't mean that they lost any of their 'properties' as an 'angelic being'! They, quite frankly, were still 'beings of light',......but now no longer the 'beings of THE LIGHT'! They were no longer His, (God's), representatives,.......but his, (Satan's)!

This is what can make 'their deception' even stronger to recognize,.....and the only accurate way we are able to 'recognize' their many 'deceptive ploys upon mankind' is to be 'filled with the actual Spirit of God, Himself,....and that's the Holy Ghost"!!!

(an 'extremely important' point!!!)

A 'spirit-filled child of God' has nothing to fear, in reference to being approached or contacted by one of these ED, (fallen angels),...or even Satan himself! They don't want anything to do with a 'child of God'! I can assure you,....they 'fully recognize God indwelling in this individual',.....as the 'same God' that they so foolishly rebelled against in Heaven, causing them to be expelled for ever more!

Furthermore,.....the only 'weapon' that the 'spirit-filled child of God' need use against Satan and his minions,....is to invoke, or say, the 'precious name of JESUS'!!! They cannot stand in the presence of His name! The name of JESUS will cause them to flee,.....every time!

Philippians 2:9-10
King James Version (KJV)

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

I hope this helps you, my friend!

Your friend, brother, and servant........kreagle

ghostrider

21st August 2012, 22:09

The main thing is knowing God is spirit, Jesus is flesh. ONE and the same. I am in the father and the father in me. flesh is in the spirit and spirit is in the flesh. the word trinity does not appear in scripture... The revelation of Jesus . What ever name you want , allah , budda , etc it's all ONE SPIRIT. That spirit will reveal the word or hide it depending on your heart being pure. People read the word and get sleepy, others read it and can't put it down.

Unified Serenity

21st August 2012, 23:15

And didn't Jesus say something about evil being unable to masquerade as the light?

Quite the contrary, we are told that Satan masquerades as an Angel (Messenger) of light. In fact, anti-Christ means instead of Christ which is sort of like Splenda or Equal being "instead of sugar" or "anti-Sugar".

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

We were warned that Lucifer / Satan would pretend to be Christian, use the church, and do things within it and through it with lies and deception, but it does not mean the foundation is wrong, just those who would remain ignorant and not understand the truth. Most never really read or study the bible so they only know what they've been told.

kreagle

22nd August 2012, 09:02

wynderer

22nd August 2012, 09:19

after the first time i met Jesus the Living Christ -- i have met Him as both Jesus the Man, & as the Living Christ -- one & the same, yet not [ the flesh & the Spirit -- both are good, the God/Creator's creation]-- i began going to churches, looking for Him there ['wherever 2 or 3 are gathered...'] --

so much division -- so much excluding of so many others who do not 'belong' to the 'Christian' faith/church

in despair one night i reached out to Him for an answer -- He answered, w/His Presence, & w/these words: 'Where ever Love Is, there I Am'

The main thing is knowing God is spirit, Jesus is flesh. ONE and the same. I am in the father and the father in me. flesh is in the spirit and spirit is in the flesh. the word trinity does not appear in scripture... The revelation of Jesus . What ever name you want , allah , budda , etc it's all ONE SPIRIT. That spirit will reveal the word or hide it depending on your heart being pure. People read the word and get sleepy, others read it and can't put it down.

Beren

22nd August 2012, 09:52

That's right wynderer!

Love is the key that opens all doors.
But Love is an energy that is wondrous in many ways and has to be lived.

Many times would Christ say things that were very harsh to an ignorant or lower level of conscience-man or woman just to see do they grasp the Love which is free of religion .

Christ is God in flesh and now in spirit.
And people are accustomed on religious institution for a guidance.
What better institution we have than in Living God???

Joe Akulis

22nd August 2012, 14:53

kreagle

22nd August 2012, 19:43

Thank you for your reply kreagle. You reaffirm some of the things that I felt about my traditional Christian upbringing. One of those being that there isn't room for other civilizations in other places. Anyone who begins to believe in the existence of ETs--be they hostile, friendly, or ambivalent toward us--eventually will have a stressful, troubled period to go through as they start to expand their beliefs beyond what the church gave them. It's not easy, because they most likely have this "thing" hanging over their head that makes them think they are playing games with their salvation, and risking their eternal soul... I do remember Pope John Paul II once said that if ETs did exist, it would present us with a great opportunity to teach Christ risen to them. But something tells me a lot of them already know who he is. Just a hunch from a wayward soul who has been badly deceived, I suppose.

I'm probably becoming a pest at this point, but I have another question if you're interested. It has to do with predestination. This was the kicker for me. Do you believe that a person born into a muslim household who is taught to hate certain people from a very young age, who goes and blows himself up in a market in order to whack as many infidels as he can... Do you believe he is headed to hell for all eternity?

seeker1972,

Thank you, brother, for your continued support and 'valuable input'! Please get the silly notion out of your head that,...."I'm probably becoming a pest at this point,...."! On the contrary, my dear friend!

I have another question if you're interested. It has to do with predestination. This was the kicker for me. Do you believe that a person born into a Muslim household who is taught to hate certain people from a very young age, who goes and blows himself up in a market in order to whack as many infidels as he can... Do you believe he is headed to hell for all eternity?[/

A situation, like you are referring to above, is very tragic and unfortunate, to say the least. Your 'example', here, is a perfect one, in showing and highlighting the awesome responsibility we have as parents to 'properly' raise and instruct our children.

Proverbs 22:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Tragically we see that this 'Godly principle' can also work in 'reverse' when it is employed in the 'wrong direction'! A 'young mind' is so impressionable! No wonder Jesus expressed such fondness towards 'little children'.

In my answer to you about the misguided Muslim,....I must, once again, go back to what I have earlier said in a reply to Frogweaver.

Matthew 7:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I'm afraid that too many "Christians",.....in their zeal to be God/Christ-like,....take things "entirely too far",.....and consequently are deceived into thinking that they are God, too, and are "ordained to judge, also"! This is a grave, grave, mistake!

I will respectfully submit, here, that we "all" better leave the "Office of God,....to God"!

My advice to you is to simply not 'clutter up your mind' over situations like this, and simply 'turn it over to God'. If you will adopt this policy on a 'regular basis' you will one day find that it won't be necessary to 'turn it over' any more,.......for you will have reached the point,.....where you 'never had it in the first place'! Then you will come to the full realisation that you are 'free'! That should bring a 'big smile' on your face, my dear friend!

God richly bless you, my dear friend!,............kreagle

P.S. ( write back, soon!)

kreagle

23rd August 2012, 04:08

Thanks Kreagle, and you are wrong about me being a Buddhist.

I simply stated that all religions are the same and point to the same truth of God.

The holy ghost is something that can be felt by non-christians as well; like I.

It's not that I'm afraid your words will not be in line with my beliefs Kreagle, it's just that I'm worried your beliefs aren't in line with the times we're in.

The Word of God; I believe many think this means the words of the bible.. (even though they've been translated)... but the word of god existed before the bible did. And the word of God is SOUND.. vibration and light. For example: the quan yin method of meditaition, given by master Ching Hai, gives people instant enlightenment through which they can connect with God, and it is a meditation on your inner light and sound vibration. Truth is the word of god.

"God said, "see, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has breath of life, I have given every plant for food."

If anything is to be responded to, then let it be that.. what do you make of this quote?..why does it say that our food is to be plants and fruit, if we are meant to eat meat?..

With Love and Respect,
Frogweaver

Frogweaver,

I have, at your request, taken a 'closer look' at the issue that you seem to be 'hung up on',......and have a response for you, my friend.

First, here is your quote......

"God said, "see, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has breath of life, I have given every plant for food."

If anything is to be responded to, then let it be that.. what do you make of this quote?..why does it say that our food is to be plants and fruit, if we are meant to eat meat?..

Frogweaver, in regards to your 'adamant rejection' of killing animals/eating meats, (another hallmark trait of Buddhist's),..... I suppose that must come from the teachings of your 'master Ching Hai',....( I have no idea who he is).

Actually, seeker1972, gave some 'excellent replies' to you about this!

The 'Genesis account' on food to be eaten,....is as follows......

Genesis 1:28-30
King James Version (KJV)

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Now to your credit, Frogweaver, some of my fellow Christian comrades, here, basically feel that there was 'no eating of meats, (animals), to begin with. I certainly wasn't there, nor you, nor my comrades, to personally witness this. If you wish to adamantly believe that they didn't,.....then do exactly that, my friend.

The wording, here, in the Genesis' account of man's dietary menu, is somewhat intriguing to me, for it is basically a 'continuous and flowing thought' in text, with no 'periods' in some cases and 'no exclusions', especially. You see, the way I read it, God does not, in any way, specifically 'exclude animals,..( ie. beasts,....fowl of the air,....everything that creepeth,....fish of the sea,....wherein there is life),....from this 'dietary menu for mankind' that He lays down, here in Genesis. It goes without saying that this 'prescribed menu from God',.....does indeed contain,....every herb bearing seed,.....the fruit of a tree yielding seed,....and every green herb,.....BUT,....I don't see where He 'excluded' the animals, beasts, fowl of the air, fish of the sea, and everything that creepeth! In 'all my dealings with God',....I've never known Him to be hap-hazard in His overall 'planning efforts'. If anything, He is a very detailed, structured and organized God,.....down to the most minute detail!

If you will go back and look at the 'passages that I've highlighted' in your quote above, you'll notice that 'sandwiched in between the green texts, (fruits, herbs, etc.) are where the meat, (animals, fish, fowl) portion are'. Sounds to me like a 'legitimate sandwich' to me!

I respectfully submit to 'each of you' that there was a very valid reason 'why' these 'beasts, fowl of the air, fish of the sea, and everything that creepeth' were specifically mentioned in this Genesis' account, (these 3 verses), in reference to 'mankind's dietary menu'!

If anyone wishes to believe otherwise,......that's your choice to do so.

The 'Old Testament' goes on to give many accounts where mankind, indeed partook of eating meats, (animals), fishes, and fowl of the air,.....as seeker1972 pointed out, so well. The only 'exception to this rule' were whether they were considered to be 'clean or unclean' in the eyes of God,....as to whether they could be 'consumed or not'. (The account is recorded in the Book of Leviticus)( You appear to completely question and reject the Bible's account, here)

The 'New Testament' basically is a continuation of the same,....with the 'addition' of many new meats,(animals), that were formerly considered 'unclean' by God,....but now accepted by Him. (note: this account and proof is found in the Book of Acts,....which you seem to question, or deny, It's authority, also.)

Maybe you can begin to see why it may be 'very difficult', if not downright impossible, to have a 'fruitful dialogue' with you as you seemingly have no difficulty in rejecting any written 'Biblical proof' that I, or anyone else here, may present to you.

Here is another quote from you on a 'previous post'.....

One law of the universe is; Karma. Another is; the law of attraction. We will reap what we sow with the blood we spill to animals, and we will attract more death and violence. What do you envision for paradise?... meat eaters?..... it sounds like the past all over again.

What do 'I' envision for paradise? I can only 'see with Biblical eyes, right now', in that I have to, once again, go to my 'Answer Book' and see what It tells me.

At the conclusion of the cataclysmic events, recorded in the Book of Revelation, the prophet Isaiah gave us a 'glimpse' of what the New Jerusalem was going to look, and be, like.

Isaiah 65:25
King James Version (KJV)

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Sounds like there's going to be a 'complete dietary change' to me, in reference to what we read from Isaiah's prophetic vision, doesn't it? This should make you 'very happy',....and I am, very much, looking forward to it myself,.....especially the 'peaceful conditions' that will usher in along with this!

Also take a look at the prophet Hosea's vision.......( a little 'lengthy' but worth the read!)

Hosea 2:14-23
King James Version (KJV)

14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.

15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.

16 And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.

17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the Lord, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;

22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.

23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

What a 'beautiful and overpowering' passage of Scripture this also is, in allowing us to get just a 'glimpse' of the future, when Jesus sets up His New Jerusalem.

Like I said, earlier,.....this is the 'only way' that I, or anyone else, can accurately 'envision what God has in store for us',....if we will only grasp what He 'has for us, right now' and 'faithfully continue' to the end, my friend.

Hope this helps answer your questions.

Your friend, brother, and servant........kreagle

Krullenjongen

23rd August 2012, 08:13

I wanted to give my viewpoint on two subjects here.

Eating of animals

I think we all agree that God said in the garden of eden "I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."
I believe we cannot add to that or can make any conclusion from the fact that the eating of animals is not named. i believe if God wanted us to eat animals at that time he would have said it was allowed. And we cannot say it is allowed because God did not say anything about that. Saying what you can eat is just as clear as saying what you can't eat, i don't think that everything that was not allowed to eat should be included.
So i think a little different that Keagle here.

I'm glad Kreagle mentions the time after everything is made new.
The bible says that everything will be made new and perfect in the end.
Kreagle mentioned Isaiah 65:25 (see above) and this shows me indeed a diatary change when everything has been made new.
Revelation 21:4 also speaks of this time of renewal.
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

If the bible says that in that time there will be no more death than from that we can conclude that we will not be eating meat anymore. Because some animal must die for that.

I conclude from this that God never meant for us to kill and eat animals because for this an animal will have to "suffer" and he will again make it so that we will not be eating animals after everything has been made new. So my opinion is that as it was in the beginning and will be in the end that was how God intended it, no meat for man!

Then the big question where did God allow it.
And this is the text that i have been missing in this discussion.
Genesis 9:1-3 (this is when Noah leaves the ark and God speaks here)
"And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things"

So here it is, here gives God permission to eat animals.
So if you are a vegetarian, good for you, i believe you are in line with the original purpose of God with creation. If you are a meat eater, no worries it is allowed, but i believe it is missing Gods original purpose because the eating of meat causes suffering and death.
Why did God permit us to eat animals, i really don't know (i should studie the subject some more)
The reason could be, and i am speculating here, the same reason as why God first allowed a man to sent away his wife and later through Jesus said it was not Gods intended purpose but because of man's hardness of his heart.
Maybe God knew we could never refrain from the eating of meat throughout history and he permits it untill all evil and death will be wiped out?

Aliens, Extraterrestrials

The bible is very quiet about this subject. I does not say there are beings on other planets in the universe but it also does not exclude it. It simply does not directly say anything about this subject (as far as i know).
So i could be but it also could not be. I believe myself that there are no real extraterrestrials.
I believe that there are other beings that God created, you can read about them in the bible.
These are not always angels.
So i believe that there are other created beings like angels (or fallen angels) that are not indiginous to our reality but can manifest themselfs in this reality.
I think most of the things like ghosts, et's, apparitions, channelings e.g. can be credited to these beings.
They can be called fallen angels, demons, unclean or familiar spirits.
If you are interested you should at least watch the first part of the video below where some other christians give an answer to the question "do you think God created extrarerrestrial biological entities?"
My thoughts on the subject are very much in line with the answers given there.

PRbgbuV9k_4

nosgib

23rd August 2012, 08:26

ulli

23rd August 2012, 10:18

nosgib

23rd August 2012, 11:52

Oh no. He/ She would try to get their Story out, but the Establishment would hinder their efforts in all manner of speaking. (metaphorically; they would be Stonewalled)
So even a cure for cancer is not enough. As they say, so you say, and I say no. God says.

kreagle

23rd August 2012, 11:58

Hey Krullenjongen,

I know that my posts have, somewhat, heavily 'implied' that I believe that they, did indeed, eat animals.....fish.....fowls, etc. However I have not come out and 'flatly stated that they did'! I see, exactly, where you are coming from, brother. Prior to this 'thought coming out, per Frogweaver, I hadn't given it a 'real thought', quite frankly,....so I guess my journey into this topic finds me in somewhat 'uncharted territory'. I really don't know if they did,....or didn't, to tell you the truth! In the 'grand scheme of things', I'm not even sure we should be in this territory to begin with, to be honest with you, and everyone else! Time will tell I suppose.

In addition to what I have already written on this 'topic' of 'eating animals',....I have another interesting 'angle to consider'. In the Genesis' account, where God outlined the, then existing, dietary menu for mankind to follow, (Gen. 1:28-30), I need someone to explain to me the following. No one has satisfactorily done this yet. Number one,.....it's plain to see that, for some reason, God included the terms,....beast of the earth, fish of the sea, fowls of the air, and everything that creepeth on the earth,....right 'smack in the middle' of these '3 verses of Scripture', dealing with His dietary menu for mankind, right? Number two,.....even though we don't see specifically where God states,...."I've given them to you for meat",.....like He does the 'fruits, herbs, and trees' , He certainly doesn't give 'specific directions to not kill/eat them, does He? Now we all know that God didn't have a problem at all,....'earlier',.....in giving Adam and Eve 'specific instructions on what not to eat, did He?' He certainly was adamant in telling them......."But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen. 2:17)

In light of what I have laid out, above, I can't figure out, for the life of me, how,....or why,....our God would make such an issue about.....'what not to eat', in one incident,....(and believe me, I know exactly why they were 'not' to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil!),......when it was His Divine will for them to abstain from that, and then to turn around 'later' and.....'not say a single thing about what not to eat in Gen. 1:28-30 !'

Let's also factor in that we all know that our God is, among many other things, 'Omniscient', (complete and unlimited knowledge). Mind you,....there is absolutely nothing that 'takes our God by surprise', in that He 'already saw it coming to begin with'! In reality, God 'already knew,.....He saw it coming',....that Adam and Eve were going to disobey Him and partake of the 'forbidden fruit',....didn't He? Do any of us think that the 'actions of Adam and Eve' took Him by surprise? Hardly, my friend! He knew it,....long before they ever committed the sin in the first place,......and thank God,.....He already had a 'plan in place' for when it did happen!

What a mighty God we serve!

It's simply because of the aforementioned passages of Scriptures, that I have alluded to here, that simply makes me wonder,....that's all.

Why He didn't make it 'crystal clear',....or.....point blank state, like He did about the 'forbidden fruit',......"thou shalt not eat, thereof"!,....I simply don't know!

Points to ponder, my dear friends! I really haven't fully made up my mind, yet. I'm probably around a 60/40 split, right now.

I know one thing!,......I sure hope we are not "all" guilty of 'this'!!!!!

Matthew 23:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

****GULP!!!****

I'm really convinced there are 'more important things' to talk about,.....which are 'far more relevant to us today' than this topic!..... IMHO!

Love you 'all' !!!,............kreagle

nosgib

23rd August 2012, 12:08

Also, in addition, they would not have to prove who they were previously as the proof offered by them would be absolute, hence no room for debate that they did not represent God.

Krullenjongen

23rd August 2012, 15:40

Without agreeing or disagreeing with any words said here.
The one thing that I do know is: that no Seer, Prophet etc
would claim to be anyone from the past, as they full-well know that to do so would have huge ramifications to him/herself (in the greater scheme of things)
And that's all I will say on the subject.

I don't understand your remark.
As far as i know no biblical prophet or Jesus claimed to be someone from the past. We spoke about some passages where other people think jesus was a person who lived in the past and had returned (some people thought Jesus was elijah who returned) but Jesus never claimed this.

@ Kreagle
Sorry if i misunderstood you brother.
I believe God excluded the tree of knowledge in his commandment in what to eat because the first commandment was all inclusive

Look: "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:7 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"

God first said "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat"
If God stopped there then it would have included the tree of knowledge of good and evil. that is why He directly after this says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it"

if we were having a discussion about dieet and i were to explain to you what you should eat in your dieet and would say "Kreagle you should eat vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds" would you think i mean you can/should eat meat too because i did not mention it?

We don't have to come to an agreement here, just wanted to explain as clear as i can.

blessings to you,

Krullenjongen

P.s. if you have more relevant / important issues we can talk about i am open to all suggestions.

Joe Akulis

23rd August 2012, 17:51

This might be a good time to finish that one point about people guessing that Jesus may have been Elijah... It was because a lot of people were familliar with scripture. In particular the part in Malachi where it says the coming of the messiah would be preceded by the return of Elijah. That had a lot of people keeping any eye out for Elijah, and it was why that was one of the popular guesses to who Jesus was. If he was Elijah returned, then they could expect to see the Messiah right around the corner, right? There are three places in the new testament where Jesus clears this up. He tells his followers that yes indeed, the spirit who previously was Elijah has returned. And he tells them who he was this time around, and that bit of info fulfills what was written in scripture. I'm sure kreagle can tell us who it was.

BTW it also means that, even though we don't have a prophet trying to tell people who he used to be, we do have a clear case of a prophet telling us who another prophet used to be. :-)

Joe Akulis

23rd August 2012, 18:01

Rocky_Shorz

23rd August 2012, 18:17

old school preachers still use fear to keep their flock together...

the big bad wolf is hiding in the shadows...

the modern churches gathering now talk of good, the future and lessons of the past without Satan ever being mentioned...

we've grown beyond the boogie man...

Rocky_Shorz

23rd August 2012, 18:25

Rocky_Shorz

23rd August 2012, 18:38

kreagle

23rd August 2012, 20:27

here is a question to ponder...

God gave man 7 stars to watch over them...

was this written thousands of years ago, knowing sooner or later we would realize there are ET's here that literally are watching over us?

Hey Rocky_Shorz,

The ' 7 stars', that your speak of here were first spoken, or prophesied about, by the prophet Amos.

Amos 5:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The Lord is his name:

These 'seven stars' are talked about, in greater detail, in the Book of Revelation. Here they are 'identified as the seven angels of the seven churches',.....not,....seven ET's!

The 'seven angels', here, are 'angels from God', (the good guys),....NOT,..... 'fallen angels', (the bad guys). 'Fallen angels' , from today's technological view, can be 'classified as ED's,.....for ET's do not exist!,..., (only in the imaginations of mankind)!

Revelation 1:19-20
King James Version (KJV)

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

You do 'bring up a point', though, in reference to 'ET's potentially 'watching over us',....to which I particularly reject.

On more than one occasion, I have heard, and read, about incidents where a 'supposedly ET visitation occurs',.....and they would 'casually tell those they were visiting',......"we've been watching over you!",.....(as if they've been 'caring for us' and 'showering us with love') (note: they call themselves 'The Watchers'!,....anybody seen this?)

Just how 'deceptive can that be',....for an ED, (fallen angel),....to appear as 'something he is NOT, an ET',......and to then further 'deceive mankind into believing that they are watching over us?'

Is there anyone here that doesn't believe that Satan, and his minions, (the fallen angels, ED's) wouldn't try this very tactic to 'rend us away from God?

Don't you think they would like to take away the 'credit from God' that He and His angels are 'watching over us,....and taking care of us?",.....and then to 'take credit for this, themselves?' The answer to this has got to be 'undeniably yes!',.....and that's 'exactly what they are trying,....and will continue to try to do if we are not 'spiritually awakened to this poisonous ploy of deception they are endeavoring to 'cram down our throats!!

Let me say, here, that I fully realize that 'this particular topic' is considered 'completely taboo' in virtually 'every Christian realm'! It seems that the 'general attitude towards this' is for most to completely avoid it and to 'bury their heads in the sand, as the camel supposedly does! Personally I feel the 'overwhelming responsibility to warn each of my fellow brothers/sisters in Christ' of any potential deception that is, and has been, creeping up on us all!

1 Peter 5:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

also......

Ephesians 6:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

'This' is another,....(out of 'many'),...reason why we 'must' have the indwelling Spirit of God, resident in our lives,.....to make us vigilant, prepared, and knowledgeable for that which is coming,....my dear, dear, friends!

Your friend, brother, and servant.......kreagle

Jules

23rd August 2012, 21:18

Thank you Kindred,

I took a class in Introduction to the New Testament, not as a religious class, but as a look at it from a more historical view, and we looked at the writings themselves from an objective view. There were books excluded from the New Testament, and examples of contradiction in agreed upon Bible. As for the "lost" books, the instructor stated they were the part of a family that didn't fit in, like a crazy aunt, or weird cousin. Who compiled the book, and decided what material was worthy is an interesting thought. Also, based on the time of Jesus, what was the culture, and what did some of those things mean in that culture, compared to ours. If you in your heart want to know the truth, pray about it with that intent in your whole heart, and it will be shown to you. Seek truth, and truth will be shown, send that message out in thought, and through your experiences you will be shown.

Much love.

kreagle

23rd August 2012, 23:14

Krullenjongen,

We don't have to come to an agreement here, just wanted to explain as clear as i can.

blessings to you,

Krullenjongen

P.s. if you have more relevant / important issues we can talk about i am open to all suggestions.

Hey, brother,.....I'm really more in 'agreement with you, here' than you might think. When I stated, earlier, that I was 'pretty much around 60/40' on this 'topic',....
I really meant 60% against them eating meat in the Genesis' account, to begin with. Like I said, I just don't know,...and I really have pretty much exhausted my feelings on this 'topic'. There are so much more 'relevant topics for today' that need to be discussed. IMHO !

God bless you, always!,.....your brother,.......kreagle

Frogweaver

24th August 2012, 01:25

"There are so much more 'relevant topics for today' that need to be discussed. IMHO !"

Sorry for bringing it up again then in response.

Interesting response! I see the prophecy for the no more eating of meat in Isaiah. In my opinion it doesn't change what was right in the beginning or after, for my belief about the law of not killing is that it means do not kill anything, and the laws are universal laws, and they are eternal.. and this is a mere testament to karma.. killing things, especially small things by accident is no big deal.. but when we are more conscious of life and have love then we kill less.. and that allows people to do it for survival; when they need to. This is why the times have changed now, because we no longer need to, and it is killing the planet. . The bible merely predicts what God knows about the future times, not that what is right really changes.. only slightly.. more perfect.

Master Ching Hai is an enlightened master and it is a she. ( www.godsdirectcontact.com )
( www.suprememastertv.com )

Ching Hai teaches that the word of God is vibration.. and this is why religions disagree... because they are protecting words of impurity, not pure vibrational truth. Words are confusing.. so many translations.. and mistranslations.. you can ponder the words of scripture forever, and ponder at what the they meant exactly.. but the truth is in our DNA. Everyone has it! And this is where the laws are truly kept.

I believe Christ returns in consciousness. Christ is the way; but his ways are the way, not the man in flesh.

"How happy are those who do not need to see me to believe?"

"Maybe you can begin to see why it may be 'very difficult', if not downright impossible, to have a 'fruitful dialogue' with you as you seemingly have no difficulty in rejecting any written 'Biblical proof' that I, or anyone else here, may present to you."

Indeed.. not when the old testament bible is confusing word for word.. but when you see through it, that involves the idea of rejection because the way things are written are not consistent.. and I am basing it off of present teachings from those masters who have already been to heaven and seen for themselves; not distorted teachings from the past.

If we are to live up to the true God, then the God jesus spoke of would suffice well; but everything is wrapped in parable. The God that I believe in which is pure joy suffices well. The God that we all are behind our cloak of mind and body. And I see more evidence for this God. People only feel the wrath of the God they've designed with their minds because of guilt and karma....

Do you feel that one must be christian to go to Heaven?..
Who are these masters of deception then that give enlightenment and a path to heaven?.. the devil? how is one tricked when they are given the LIGHT AND SOUND of heaven?

Love and respect,
Frogweaver

Frogweaver

24th August 2012, 02:29

Frogweaver.... One problem with the quote you gave. If that is the word of God: that everthing that creeps and has breath of life has been given every plant for food, then, uhm, what's a crocodile doing here? Or a tiger... You don't usually see a shark eating plants... Are all of these things abominations? I think we can assume then that the albacore was not given for sharks to rule over... And when the Israelites were in the desert after they left Egypt, and they were at risk of starvation, one of God's miracles ... didn't a giant flock of game birds come flying in? Soo... "Thou shalt not kill unless you are starving and/or your species is unable to digest kelp?" Okay, I'll give you one point I see coming, that the partridges that flew into the Israelite camp may not have been sent from God, and they wrongly attributed serendipity to a miracle.

I do agree with you that we need to cut way back on the meat eating. But I don't think that it was never supposed to be on the plate. Seems like our creator designed things certain ways. So maybe look at it like this. A cow's digestive system is tailor made for eating grass. You however, try to eat a couple pounds of fress grass without boiling it first, and you will probably have issues. Perhaps if we weren't meant to eat flesh, we would've been given digestive systems that wouldn't allow it to begin with. Just a thought. And another one behind that: If the planet started running out of grass to eat, would the digestive system of a cow begin evolving to allow him to survive on other things? Cows that eat crickets and grasshoppers perhaps? Hmm. That would imply that "every plant for food" would kinda be getting taken back by God though...

:-) Fun stuff to wonder about.

You're a thinker, and I like that.

It's a very good question about the crocodiles and the sharks.. "everything that has breath of life"... that would certainly include them, wouldn't it? perhaps this planet has been a dwelling for genetic modification in the past.

I know you dont want to believe in E.T.'s because there's 'no room in the bible for it,' but I find that all evidence not need be found there. I find a similarity between rigid religious preachers and scientists... they both require you to ignore your experiences as viable knowledge.. in religion they say it's because everything is the devil.. in science they say it's because your mind is not adequate to tell reality from fantasy...

is there no middle ground? Why is religion and science so polarized like this? There are of course answers to this question.. but I think it's necessary to understand that there is life in this universe other than us. Ching Hai also speaks on them, and she tells of the humans that live under the surface of Mars, because they destroyed the surface of their planet millions of years ago. Yes she is another E.T. human advocate.. please don't brush it off so quickly. There are heavenly miracles revolving around her presence here on Earth, and I hardly think she is the devil....

Edit: When it comes to all life on the planet, it's the vibration that affects all living things... lower vibration means eating meat... higher vibration means eating fruits, plants, or light. This explains why certain beings eat what they eat.. they are on a lower or a higher vibration.

Love and Respect,
Frogweaver

Frogweaver

24th August 2012, 02:48

Frogweaver,

Who is your 'master Ching Hai'? Is he Buddhist? Sorry if I 'read you wrong',....but brother, you sure had a 'strong sale' going on there, regarding the Buddhist's faith. The entire matter was 'further complicated' with your adamant views and defense of 'abstaining from meats/not killing animals, etc.',...in that this is certainly a 'strong Buddhist belief' from my limited understanding on Buddhism.

What does your 'master Ching Hai' say about Jesus' Divinity,.....or the New Testament, specifically? Does he accept Him or His Divine nature? You've already expressed your disapproval of many texts in the 'Old and New Testament',....does he feel the same way? Am I safe, or accurate, in saying that their may be 'some passages in the Christian Bible' that you agree with,.....but many that you don't and consequently reject?

(point)

I promise you that I'm not trying to be 'problematic', here, for you. I'm just trying to figure out how we can conduct a 'fruitful dialogue' under the circumstances we have discussed thus far.

Love and Peace,......kreagle

Thanks for your sincerity Kreagle!..

I apologize for seeming rigid and adamant in my views.. but it's a sense of knowing god's law not through scripture, (buddha or christian), but through pure light consciousness. Scripture harmonizes with this, but only if you're willing to accept the problems with it..

Ching Hai belongs to no religion and does not teach buddhism. She does however teach from all religious scriptures. It is a comfortable thing to be able to do that, and not feel like you are betraying your lord.. this has to do with guilt; from genetic modification of our energy circuits... humans are genetically modified and thats why we have many broken circuits, which can be repaired. But no, Ching Hai does not teach about that!.. So, back on topic about her..

Ching Hai agrees that Jesus was divine. He was a prophet. She has not spoken about who is greater, as I don't believe any genuine enlightened master would say such things.. her example leads in the way of greatness. She became enlightened in the similar fashion that Jesus did.. because there are two kinds of masters in the world.. one kind who comes down and takes someone's karma.. the other kind who becomes a master by receiving initiation from another master (disciple and teacher).

She has many thousands of initiates around the world, and she gives the Quan Yin Method of meditation, which is a meditation on your inner light and sound vibration. You receive instant enlightenment upon initiation and the meditation method which is to sustain this on your own, to achieve your own mastery.. or 'buddhahood'.. this is a level to which one can leave thebody and go to heaven, though surely not all achieve this.

She does use words from the buddha world, as it is a part of her history, but she does not single out any religion. Her volunteer initiates created the www.suprememastertv.com which is a free internet television with many channels and many things to learn. She has initiation centers all around the world.

Reading all scriptures, one finds greater awareness... not relying soully on one school of thought, which is what the bible is.. one could invest their whole life in to this... book... And not gain a thing... but as Jesus said.. "If he is not against you, then he is with you.." therefore it matters not what religion people partake in, or what they say necessarily..

Love and Respect,
Frogweaver

Frogweaver

24th August 2012, 03:09

¤
[/COLOR]Now speaking about food, first what they ate in garden was fruits only.
But reading deeper one sees that they barely needed food at all!
They were in perfect body soul spirit connection and I am inclined to think that if they wouldn`t eat they would be OK concerning that they were united with God directly.

Yes, truly!..

This helps me to respond to seeker1972 when he mentioned the digestive systems of animals and their correlation to the types of foods we eat.. but, food I believe was originally meant for healing... people eat it now for pleasure and they are hooked... even the animals are being perverted with sensuous foods... there is even toothpaste for your pet cats.. CHING HAI has many vegan pets, and they are happy..for those who believe the digestive system is a reason to think that a creature must eat meat.. ALL animals are capable of being vegan, regardless of their stomach or intestines. The noblest or most intelligent animals are often vegan, like gorillas and elephants.. and the least friendly are like hyenas or vultures..

Edit: When it comes to all life on the planet, it's the vibration that affects all living things... lower vibration means eating meat... higher vibration means eating fruits, plants, or light.

Love and Respect,
Frogweaver

Rocky_Shorz

24th August 2012, 06:24

if God said don't eat the apple..

who made the saying "an apple a day keeps the doctor away..." ?

was that Satan, or someone writing the public health care manual for cutting costs?

I actually had quite a few questions for this thread, but I'm looking for unwritten answers and it isn't fair for me to expect anyone would know them...

everyone says the same thing, get ready...

and yet not one has a clue what they are getting ready for...

kreagle

24th August 2012, 07:14

It's troubling to be told to ignore questions about predestination. Why teach about hell--a topic that would make anyone fret--if questions about hell shouldn't be fretted about? If I shouldn't worry about a soul who is damned because most likely God "has it taken care of", then why teach us that souls can be condemned? Does it mean that people who never had the chance to come to know Christ, do they get a special pass? That sounds like a slippery slope to me... Besides, early church fathers wouldn't say that. They would talk about how a condemned soul is predestined, but a saved soul was never really predestined and had freedom of choice. Or did I get that backwards...

seeker1972,

The wording of your 'previous text' had me convinced that you were more concerned about the 'destination of this poor, misguided Muslim's soul' more than anything else and that's why I responded to you in the matter that I did. I will, once again, highlight this 'previous text' for you to review again!

I'm probably becoming a pest at this point, but I have another question if you're interested. It has to do with predestination. This was the kicker for me. Do you believe that a person born into a Muslim household who is taught to hate certain people from a very young age, who goes and blows himself up in a market in order to whack as many infidels as he can... Do you believe he is headed to hell for all eternity?

With your 'last sentence' of this 'previous post',......do you now see why I arrived at my conclusion?

I don't know if you 'fully recognize the magnitude of the question you have asked me, here!' Do you not realize that when you asked me this 'specific question', that you were, in reality,.....asking me to 'put on a judicial robe and pass judgement on this poor man's soul?'

Regardless to which way I may have answered 'this question by you',....either by saying,......."yes, he's going to hell!",......or,......."no, he's not going to hell!",......that the very instant I would have made 'this proclamation', (in either direction), I would have become,......a judge!

(Remember.......'Judge not,.....that ye be not judged.' Matthew 7:1)

I,....nor any 'other wise person', cannot afford to be guilty of 'occasionally slipping on that judicial robe'! There are, unfortunately, many who feel that they have 'earned the right' to make these kinds of decisions on another person's fate,.....but they are very, very, wrong if they do! The 'only One' who is able to wear that 'Judicial Robe',.....is,......you guessed it!,.....Jesus Christ, Himself! He is the 'only One' that the 'Judicial Robe' will properly fit. On 'anyone else' it will just 'droop and sag' very miserably,.....for no one can 'properly fill',.....His shoes,.....His Judicial Robe, etc. It's got to be Him,......and Him, only!,....my dear friend.

Now a person could, I suppose, say,....."look,...I'm not asking you to 'send them to hell',....or......'let them go, Scott free',.....I'm simply asking for your 'opinion'." You see, seeker1972, this angle may seem 'innocent enough to some',.....but even this angle is problematic, in that,.....'you simply don't guess about, or play around with, another man's/woman's soul! Even when you 'guess, or give your opinion,.....you are 'still guilty of 'passing judgement',....so you're right back to where we started from on this discussion, my friend. You can pray for them,.....but let God be God, for that's the only wise choice to make that will keep you out of trouble!

You could even give 'advice', (not judgement), to the misguided Muslim, (in your particular scenario) about this particular heinous crime. (Now that's 'if' you were given the chance before he 'detonated himself'!) You could certainly advise him,.....plead with him,.....and show him the warnings in God's Word. You could even go as far as telling him that he was going to be in 'complete violation of God's Word',....and would have to stand before Him at His Judgement seat,....but that's really the 'limitations of your Scriptural authority' as a believer in Christ!

If there's anything more that you would like to discuss on this 'topic' then 'specify exactly what you would like to know, my dear friend!

I have a 'hunch' about a direction you want to go in,.....but I'm going to allow you to 'specify it to me',....in that I don't want to be guilty of 'putting words in your mouth'!

Your friend, brother, and servant........kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

24th August 2012, 07:29

so Jesus recognized God, and you don't, and that's OK by your teachings?

kreagle

24th August 2012, 09:23

so Jesus recognized God, and you don't, and that's OK by your teachings?

Rocky_Shorz,

I understand your 'angle' in claiming that God was an 'ET',......but that is incorrect,...by the simple definition of the word.

'ET', by definition,......literally means,.......'originating outside, the limits of this earth'. God is 'infinite', my friend and has no 'originating',..(or ending, either), point.

Jesus, was none other than,.......

'God manifested in the flesh' ( John 1:1-14)

'had the fulness of the Godhead dwelling in His body' (Colossians 2:9)

'the only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords' ( 1 Timothy 6:15)

This is 'just the beginning' of His many attributes,.....for He is, quite simply,....God!

This is who I 'recognize Him to be',.....my dear friend.

I actually had quite a few questions for this thread, but after the first response, it has me shutting down reminded of the rigid Book TEACHINGs interpreted by those who were taught answers, and not Spirituality or knowledge...

everyone says the same thing, get ready...

and yet not one has a clue what they are getting ready for...

Rocky, I can assure you I know 'exactly what I/we are getting ready for', my friend.

I also know, and fully recognize that you have a 'very brilliant mind', quite possibly on an intellectual level as great, or greater, than everyone on this Avalon board. I've read some of your in-depth responses on several topics, and my hat is off to you.

It would be wonderful if you would choose to 'share some of your wisdom' with all of us here,....just not in such a condescending way to me, especially. I have the utmost respect for you,....and I'd like you to consider giving me the same.

I'm sure your animosity stems from some of the 'religious words and terms' that you've already seen here. One thing you 'haven't seen, here, though' is a mean and haughty spirit, from me.

If you will just be patient, my friend, I know that you will be able to 'learn some things,....from a Bible standpoint,....that you didn't already know. I am also quite sure with the attributes you have that we 'all' can learn a few things from you, too!

If my comments about 'ET's not being my/our watchers' riled you up, I'm sorry. If I was forced to believe that,....I would simply 'close up my Bible and go home'!

God is the 'One in control',...my friend,....and He and His angels, (the unfallen ones), are the ones who 'watch' over us all,....plain and simple.

There are going to be some very deep, and enriching Biblical topics, that we are going to be 'revealing and discussing' in the very near future, here.

I really hope you will stay and join in!

Your brother, friend, and servant........kreagle

Joe Akulis

24th August 2012, 13:20

Also, based on the time of Jesus, what was the culture, and what did some of those things mean in that culture, compared to ours.

Yes, it definitely can enrich your understanding of a lot of things that you read in the new testament. Like when you learn how semitic hyperbole was used back then, i.e., "better to fit a rope through the eye of a needle", "taking the log out of your own eye", etc.

My favorite bit of trivia when it comes to understanding the culture back then was when I learned about Levirite Marriage. That explains why James is referred to as Jesus' brother in a number of places. I think it was Clopas(?) who was the older brother of Joseph, and James' father?

Neat stuff.

Rocky_Shorz

24th August 2012, 14:00

:rofl:

better work on your understanding...

Jesus is the light and the way, not God...

how are Christians going to move forward without knowing what is in the hidden scroll?

if you spoke with the one that created tomorrows reality, who would it be?

ps... if you were the Pope I would be asking the same question...

Joe Akulis

24th August 2012, 14:56

Beren

24th August 2012, 17:08

Food is just food .Plants are conscious aswell as animals so I don't recall anyone complaining or taking stand with plants and how they feel about being food...

Point is that all is energy in one or another form. Denser or lighter.
In perfect state a human barely needs anything physical to sustain itself. The connection with Almighty is so strong that the very connection is sustaining the man.

That's why they ate only fruits in the garden...
Not the whole plants or so and even this is questionable since it's not written that they actually have to eat something to survive. They had the possibility of eating food if they so chose.

Anyways it wasn't an apple or so - just fruit and this whole thing was not about food. It was about choices and repercussions of the same.

So let's not get sidetracked about this and Bible.
If you want to eat plant only -fine . If you want to eat meat -fine too.
We're much more above this and our true nature excludes a need for physical food.
Christ ate and drank and still was condemned by low level humanity...

kreagle

24th August 2012, 22:02

kreagle,

Yes, I think I would like to continue a little more on the hell subject. But if my hypothetical disturbs you, then we'll use a better one. In the bible there's a guy who winds up in hell, and then asks if Lazarus can be sent to his 5 sons to tell them not to do what he did, so that they don't suffer his fate. In this example, it's already an established fact that the guy is in hell, so we avoid the hazardous prospect of slipping on our judicial robes and may continue to discuss the fact that yes indeed, there are things that can land you in hell. I'm not as concerned about the things that can land you there. My problem is the fact that anyone at all can wind up there. Eternal torment for eternity. All because you made some stupid mistakes during your one and only very short lifetime. WOW.

God is Love. Would God really set things up this way? Humans, who are not very good at being put to the test, get this grand test to determine if they rot forever in an eternal dungeon? Or if they follow their hearts and choose God then they manage to avoid the thumb's down? THAT'S Love?? Why not just create people with the kind of heart that will win the test to begin with? Why even create people who could even potentially fail this test called life? Just to see what they will do? That's not Love. That just seems heartless... Want to make that whole prospect a little worse? Read Venerable Louis of Grenada. He does a wonderful job of helping a person understand just how much love is poured into each and every human soul. God loves all of us so much. And He loves us all equally. I do believe that. But should I let go of that silly notion and believe that God could care less about half the humans he creates? They're doomed anyway. Hmm.

Thankfully it's not that cut and dried. :-)

Matthew 5:25 - Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Luke 12:58 - When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

Wait... We won't get out... UNTIL the last penny has been paid? Does that mean we do get out? Is Jesus just talking about purgatory here, or what? Now we're having some fun.

Is it possible that hell is not necessarily a place where souls rot forever and regret for eternity something that they did in the small, tiny window of time when they were mortal? "Yeap, I'm going on my millionth year now. Boy do I wish I hadn't been born to those rich parents with bad values, way back those one million years ago. And boy does it stink, spending a million years paying for something I did for only 40 years..."

Is there just one hell? Are there different varieties of hell for different varieties of sinners? Are any of them eternal? What really IS the real purpose of hell? Did God create it? Are you sure about that? Or did we? Just how much data is there in the Bible to sort out all of these questions? And if we can't sort it all out in such a way that allows us to maintain our understanding of God as a god of love, then we're missing something, aren't we? Did the devil create it? If so, why would God allow the devil to create it? Am I playing games with my own soul by even asking these questions?

seeker1972,

First of all, let me genuinely say that my 'heart goes out to you' in an enormous way, right now. I wish that I was, somehow, 'physically close to you',....for if I were, I would simply give you a big, warm, hug. My reply, here, may 'startle you' ,.....but that's exactly part of the 'remedy' I feel that God would prescribe for your condition.

Let me explain. (Initially, you may think that I am avoiding your 'request',....but I assure you I'm not!)

I can painfully see that you are suffering over the 'topic concerning hell' based upon your strict Catholic upbringing. Unfortunately you are among the count of a 'multitude of souls' that have been bombarded by the 'Catholic teachings', especially on hell! This certainly seems to be a 'favorite ploy of theirs' to beat their pupils/subjects over the head with this!

Let me make a statement, here, that I am very adamant about, (in the Holy Ghost), and that's this,....."If a person is 'serving God' because they are 'scared to death of hell,......that person is serving Him for 'all the wrong reasons!" And furthermore,......may God have mercy on the individual who taught them to do so!

You don't serve God because of your 'fear of hell',......you learn to serve Him because of His glorious love,....(called agape)! Another 'closely related term' that I want to equally address is the 'fear of God' phrase. It has been stated that one must 'fear God'! I believe, and know, that the more 'accurate statement' would be,.....'that one must learn to 'fear God'! First, we simply need to understand that there is, by definition,......'fear, (to be 'afraid of'),......and then we have......'fear, (to 'respect')! Once this is realized and understood, then its just a simple matter of 'eliminating' the fear factor and adopting, or implementing the respect factor. It's then, and then only, that we will have properly 'learned' the correct Biblical concept about the phrase 'fear God'!

Why not just create people with the kind of heart that will win the test to begin with? Why even create people who could even potentially fail this test called life? Just to see what they will do? That's not Love. That just seems heartless...

You need to understand, my dear seeker1972, that God, at no time, had any desire to create an 'army of robots' to serve Him and carry out life on this planet. To have done so, would have been 'dictatorial in principal'. Your 'hypothetically intended' question here, if carried out by God, would have to mean that He 'programmed us',...(or 'hard-wired' us), so-to-speak. And 'that would not be Love'!!,....my friend,.....but a dictator creating 'robotic subjects', incapable of 'failing'!

Instead,...He created us 'all' with a 'free will' to choose whether we want to 'wilfully serve Him',....or not. Then, and then only,....can we truly 'define the true nature of love',....one that is built upon the principles of 'choice',.....( 'I simply 'want' to serve you, Lord!)

Is there just one hell? Are there different varieties of hell for different varieties of sinners? Are any of them eternal? What really IS the real purpose of hell? Did God create it? Are you sure about that?

seeker1972,....I'm going to make an 'extremely profound' statement here. It may take you by 'complete surprise' and 'shock you beyond your wildest imaginations'! I want you to 'brace yourself',......are you ready? Here goes,.......kreagle doesn't know everything!

No, as shocking as it may seem, there's a lot of things that 'I simply don't' know about'. I have been 'blessed to accumulate' a great deal of wisdom and knowledge over my, soon to be, 58 years,....but I still find myself in the 'pupils seat' on virtually a 'daily basis'. ('Wisdom' tells me, here, to never abandon the 'seat of the pupil'!)

Getting back to your question,......seeker1972,.....I simply don't know, brother!,....but let me share with you 'my personal definition of hell'!

Personal definition of Hell,....per kreagle

Hell, to me,....is a place totally 'void' of the presence of God!

That's it, in a nutshell, my friend! Hell is a place where God is not! I can't think of a more 'hellish place to be' than to be where,......God is not. 'This' would be my torment! I must have God!!!

In this 'same vein of thought',....I wonder if 'any of us' recognize, or even 'give it a remote thought' what the world would be like without the 'hovering presence of God's mercy and grace' saturating us and our entire planet on a 24/365 basis? I can assure everyone here,...(by the Holy Ghost),...that you,...or no one,....wants to be caught in a world under the total 'absence of God'. One day this world is going to be faced with this 'very selfsame scenario',....and that will be when our Lord God, Jesus shall come to 'claim His Bride, the Church'! Once the Bride is collected and gone,.....the presence of the Bridegroom, Jesus,.....will be gone also,...my dear friends.

And that will be 'Hell" for the 'rest of the world'!!

Am I playing games with my own soul by even asking these questions?

No, my dear brother,....your just a 'little confused, right now'!

God loves you, dearly, my brother. 'Chew' on some of the things that I have endeavored to share with you, here,....and let's talk some more!

Your brother, friend, and servant,.........kreagle

kreagle

25th August 2012, 04:33

kreagle

25th August 2012, 07:48

To 'all' Avalon members,......(note: I submitted this on the 'What does it mean-BE Christian' thread,.....and wanted to post it, here, also!)

We have, in our own ranks, a 'member', (dreamer), who is......hurting, searching, and as he says,....."stumbling in the dark".

He and his family need,......our love,.....prayers,......and support! (Now 'this' is.......'What does it mean- BE Christian?")

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48909-spiritually-lost&p=542922&viewfull=1#post542922

Your brother, friend, and servant..........kreagle

P.S. ( You have all heard the saying,...."put your money where you mouth is!",........let's,.........."put our Bibles where our heart is!")

John 13:34-35
King James Version (KJV)

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

kreagle

25th August 2012, 20:18

Beren

25th August 2012, 20:25

A 'new question' for EVERYONE.......

What makes God jealous?

Deuteronomy 4:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

"This is a topic' that will, once again,........'stretch our Biblical minds'! What in the world does God have to be 'jealous over'? What are your 'impressions' of this particular passage and it's meaning?

Love and Peace,...your brother, friend, and servant........kreagle

I`ll jump in brother,

I understand this as jealousy of God in this light:
a strife of God to show his children that it`s worthless for them and a negative experience that they should worship anything save God itself.
Why?
Because they `d lower their capability of divine nature.

In reality God is high above the possibility of jealousy but it`s written this way so lower consciousness minds can grasp this concept.
When they do they would realize that being God`s child you are on the pedestal of the universe and all life so you don`t need to worship anything or anyone.
Worshiping God the Father is acknowledging your own true nature revealed in him.
And revealed in you.

And all this is far beyond of self adoration or self service or selfishness...
Jesus would state that Father and him are one but also Jesus was very humble.
But he would always speak the truth.

wynderer

25th August 2012, 20:30

the true 'God' is not jealous -- the Reptilians who have co-opted/perverted much of the OT are, indeed, 'jealous'

i.e. --'Thou shalt not kill' vs 'an eye for an eye, & a tooth for a tooth'

kreagle

25th August 2012, 21:07

Beren,

Right on, brother! You are certainly 'on target'!

I understand this as jealousy of God in this light:
a strife of God to show his children that it`s worthless for them and a negative experience that they should worship anything save God itself.
Why?
Because they `d lower their capability of divine nature.

Your brother, friend, and servant........kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

25th August 2012, 21:23

divine destiny is a wonderful path...

in a land with no Kings, one visits and has a child...

is the child a King with no lands?

how in modern times with no tracking of history, would two royal families come together to have this child unknowingly?

that is were destiny comes into play...

Hey Rocky_Shorz,

how in modern times with no tracking of history, would two royal families come together to have this child unknowingly?

Methinks God must know what He is doing!,.....at least that's what me thinks!

A great point to 'think and ponder' upon, my brother!

Your brother, friend, and servant.........kreagle

thanks kreagle,

I've been on a long lonely path, if it wasn't for my friends at Avalon, I wouldn't have anyone to share this with...

your kindness following my frustrated outburst is what Christianity is known for...

it's the hearts of Christians that makes Christianity so special...

kreagle

25th August 2012, 21:47

the true 'God' is not jealous -- the Reptilians who have co-opted/perverted much of the OT are, indeed, 'jealous'

i.e. --'Thou shalt not kill' vs 'an eye for an eye, & a tooth for a tooth'

wynderer,

You're getting 'somewhat close', sister,.....but the Bible 'does say in more that one place',.....that He 'is', not only a jealous God, but that His actual name is Jealous!

Exodus 34:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

In the 'light of this Passage',I think it's a 'natural human response' for us to 'cringe and recoil' at the perception of God being jealous! You see, we humans recognize the 'term', jealous, in a completely negative way! We see it, (jealous and/or jealousy), as being something 'self-centered',....( a hint is given here!). Jealousy to us means,....."you've got something that I want!,...now 'give it back'!,...or 'give it to me!") If we see our children displaying 'jealousy' than we, adults, recognize that this is a 'bad trait' for them to develop,....so consequently, we 'teach them better'! Later in life, when we see an adult, (someone who is suppose to 'know better'), displaying 'jealousy' we automatically remember our children's antics, from 'yesterday',...and we make this response to the them,......"why don't you 'grow up',...and quit acting like a child?").

There really is a 'very valid reason' why God is jealous and that 'even His name is Jealous'!

Follow the 'trail of my hint'!,.....

Your brother, friend, and servant,.........kreagle

Frogweaver

26th August 2012, 02:08

"everyone says the same thing, get ready...

and yet not one has a clue what they are getting ready for... "

That's not true. They quite often say to get ready for the transformation of Earth, while we move in to the Golden age.. such as the pole shift/reversal. . this is new beginnings.. but a fresh start for growth may require getting rid of some of the deadwood.. and you see the preparation for this happening already as people are becoming enlightened. I believe there is enough information to attest that people know what they are getting ready for.

Rocky_Shorz

26th August 2012, 02:18

I agree that many Christians are awakening and know most are being held back by written rules...

it is causing an enormous turmoil for many, with no one to turn to...

afraid of talking to the church for being called a Heretic or a witch and getting burned on a stake...

this is how many of the gifted are ending up promoting men with evil plans...

drawn into orgs more forgiving with others experiencing the same controlled by those who know.

those of us who are gathering can awaken everyone around us quickly, but it needs to be done in terms they understand and accept.

it isn't easy to tell a friend that keeps tipping over it's ok they just joined the borg...

start it with humor...

then say do you really think I was kidding?

just enough to start curiosity on why earth angels are waking up...

kreagle

26th August 2012, 03:15

Frogweaver,

I believe there is enough information to attest that people know what they are getting ready for.

I agree with your statement, here,......but this is where it strictly becomes a 'numbers game'. Numerically speaking,......the Bible tells us that a 'few will know and have taken proper measures to be ready',.....and that,.....a 'majority will not have a clue, nor be ready'. This is very sobering to realize and calls for a more concentrated effort from the 'saints of God' to ramp up their 'warnings to the masses'! Every soul is 'precious' and needs to be 'extracted from the majority,....in order to be added to the minority!"
God is still looking for a 'few good men/women' to ultimately add to His kingdom!

Love and Peace,.....kreagle

kreagle

26th August 2012, 10:26

Rocky_Shorz,

those of us who are gathering can awaken everyone around us quickly, but it needs to be done in terms they understand and accept.

Hey brother,........

Your statement, here, really 'stuck out to me' with something I was feeling, (in the Spirit), today. Your 'term above',.....'awaken everyone around us quickly'! Exactly who, around here, likes to be 'awakened quickly,.....suddenly'? I know I don't,.....and I bet none of you do, either! Another 'factor to be thrown in', is ,......'who likes to have the light suddenly flipped on', when you're in a deep sleep?',.....man, that's almost enough to 'fight over', right?

The point being is, the light, (or His glorious Light), has got to be 'turned on.......gradually,.....so that you can become acclimated to the light, (or Light)!!!

I shudder when I think of the many times I have personally seen, or heard, of someone 'being bombarded, or blasted away, with God's Light,....by some well-meaning, albeit overzealous believer! Folks, we've got to,.......gradually,.....turn on the 'Light'! They can't take it,.....all at one time,...the 'whole ball of wax', so-to-speak! How many souls have there been 'blasted away',....because they weren't given the proper 'wattage of Light'?

As usual, Jesus always knew just 'how much light to give'.......and.......'when to give it'!

John 16:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

The 'wisdom of God'!

Your servant, friend, and brother,.......kreagle

Jules

26th August 2012, 12:24

kreagle

26th August 2012, 20:43

kreagle

27th August 2012, 10:15

Rocky, LOL. God didn't say don't eat apples. It was conveyed not to eat from the tree of knowledge. In the bible, what did it mean to know someone? It meant sex. Who wanted Adam and Eve to engage in sex, the serpent? How do you like them apples? That also raises questions that I can't answer.

Hey Jules,

You are completely correct in 'referring' that the Word of God,.....never 'identifies the forbidden fruit as being an.....apple'! Isn't it amazing how so many things are 'quoted by people, about the Bible....without any valid Scriptural basis?

This may seem to be a 'small matter' to most,....but the problem is 'it just gets bigger, and bigger, and completely 'out of hand'! The old 'proverbial saying' comes to mind, here,......."this is just the tip of the iceberg!". Just ask the 'Titanic' how dangerous a 'little ice sticking out of the water' can be!

2 Timothy 2:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Apples or Oranges,.....does it matter?,.......I say we better 'take Him at His Word'!!!

Thanks for your contribution, here!

Your friend, brother, and servant,.........kreagle

kreagle

28th August 2012, 01:06

What makes God jealous?

Deuteronomy 4:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Thanks, so much, to those who have participated in this 'question'. Certainly, any further questions on this 'topic' are equally worthy of discussion, so don't hesitate to post 'your view'!

my quote to 'wynderer'.....

In the 'light of this Passage',I think it's a 'natural human response' for us to 'cringe and recoil' at the perception of God being jealous! You see, we humans recognize the 'term', jealous, in a completely negative way! We see it, (jealous and/or jealousy), as being something 'self-centered',....( a hint is given here!). Jealousy to us means,....."you've got something that I want!,...now 'give it back'!,...or 'give it to me!") If we see our children displaying 'jealousy' than we, adults, recognize that this is a 'bad trait' for them to develop,....so consequently, we 'teach them better'! Later in life, when we see an adult, (someone who is suppose to 'know better'), displaying 'jealousy' we automatically remember our children's antics, from 'yesterday',...and we make this response to the them,......"why don't you 'grow up',...and quit acting like a child?").

There really is a 'very valid reason' why God is jealous and that 'even His name is Jealous'!

Follow the 'trail of my hint'!,.....

In my personal 'role as a parent', (raised three children), naturally I wanted 'only the best' for them! Whenever I became aware that they were 'venturing into dangerous territory',...(running into the road, etc.),....I always 'sprang into action' and got them 'out of the way of harm' as quickly as possible! Conversely, more often than not, many believers, today, don't realize the many 'highways and byways of danger' that we carelessly venture into! Most of the time many are 'totally oblivious to them'! It's 'times like these' that we certainly need a 'Concerned Parental Figure' to 'intervene on our behalf' and to 'lead us back to safety'! Jesus Christ is, without a doubt,....that 'Concerned Parental Figure'!

Satan, and his minions, is/are the one who has 'lured so many' into the 'highways and byways of danger',....and many are, yet again, 'oblivious to what's happening to them'!

It's there,....on the 'highways and byways of danger' that we can become 'fixated on various concepts, ideas, or things' that we wind up 'putting on a pedestal, and becoming 'objects of our worship'! All the while, as we are in our 'state of fixation,....,.....guess who is 'just waiting to run us over,....and destroy us, spiritually?' You got it,.....Satan is bearing down on us in his 'semi-truck called Deception',.... at that very time, just waiting to make 'each one of us another bug splattered in his grille!'

It should be here, that we can fully come to 'realize and appreciate' why 'our God becomes jealous, to the point of even taking on the actual name, Jealous!'

He, alone, readily recognizes that in our 'state of fixation on the highways/byways we've been lured into!', just how vulnerable we truly are! Our 'individual fixations', whatever they might be, rapidly can become 'objects of worship',...and gradually take us away from Him!

It's here, that God's jealous nature fully kicks in,.....as His jealousy screams out,...."your fixations have become objects of worship,....which will ultimately 'rend you away from Me', in the end!" "Worship belongs to Me, only!!!" " I want it back!" "Satan, I want what you have stolen from Me!"

(conclusion)

Realistically,....it should be noted, that it is perfectly permissible for us, as believers, to accumulate various 'interests in life'......(be they hobbies, sports, crafts, activities, etc.,....the list goes on)! God certainly wants us to 'enjoy life'! The real danger comes in when we take things to the 'next point of fixation',....and these 'interests' become 'everything to us'! We become totally 'fixated on them'....and then we 'place them on a pedestal of worship'!

'Many will say',.......your God is tyrannical to 'demand worship this way'!!!

I say,....."Thank you, Lord Jesus,....for keeping me out of the road!!!"

"Thank you, Lord Jesus,.......for being jealous,.......over,....ME!"

Your brother, friend, and servant.........kreagle

kreagle

28th August 2012, 18:24

Question for the 'One with the Answer'.....

Do you have a 'question for God'?

Matthew 7:7
King James Version (KJV)

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

What 'pressing question' would you ask God,.....'if' you were given the chance? Often, we become frustrated simply because He doesn't......'audibly answer us',.....or 'does He'? Let's hear your question(s) and view on this!

Love and Peace,.....your brother, friend, and servant,.........kreagle

kreagle

29th August 2012, 18:40

Hey 'everyone',......thought I'd share a very moving 'praise song' with you! God is great, my friends!

w9E0d4bwczk

Don't be "ashamed to express your love', my friends!

Mark 8:38
King James Version (KJV)

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Your brother, friend, and servant..........in Jesus' name,.........kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

30th August 2012, 06:41

kreagle

30th August 2012, 08:09

hi Kreagle...

there is a reason why politics and religion need to stay separated...

you only care about one leader, the others will do as they will... ;)

I try to stay neutral, but will take sides for balance when the other starts going wild...

so what does the bible say about respecting leaders that are trying to take care of the poor by asking the rich to pay their share?

Rocky_Shorz,

Hey, my brother, good to hear from you, again!

I am under the assumption that you are referring to 'this particular passage of Scripture' where the Pharisees were endeavoring to 'trip Jesus up with His Words'. It has to do with the taxation system of their day.

Mark 12:13-17
King James Version (KJV)

13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.

14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?

15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.

16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

The 'political leader', is Caesar,.......and........the 'religious leader' is Jesus. ( ie. Keep 'them' separate!)

As a believer, one should only give their 'true allegiance to the Lord'!.,......and as you've alluded to,.....'the rest will take care of itself'.

Luke 16:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

As far as 'respecting the leaders',.....the Bible has 'clear indicators' on this also. Common sense should also come into play, here, in that we are to 'obey the laws of the land and our leaders.' Certainly, Jesus would not condone 'rebellion, in any way, form, or fashion'! The 'laws of the land, and our leaders,......are literally 'schoolmasters' to us. 'They teach us a valuable lesson', if we will but learn. We should, first, 'naturally,....learn and apply.... the laws of the land',......and then be able to graduate to the next level of,......'spiritually, ....learning and applying the Laws of God' to our lives, equally!

Jesus, further backed up this 'respecting leaders' issue by,....observing the coin,...having them 'identify whose image, (Caesar), on the coin,....and then candidly telling the Pharisees to......'render, (or give), to Caesar the things that belong to Caesar,......and give to God the things that belonged to God!

In essence He was telling them to 'honor the taxation system of their day'!

Your brother, friend, and servant.......kreagle

Krullenjongen

30th August 2012, 17:37

hi Kreagle...

there is a reason why politics and religion need to stay separated...
you only care about one leader, the others will do as they will... ;)

Let me first say that the "separation of church and state" is not found in the US constitution. it is taken from a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a babtist church.
Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State".
I believe it was meant more as a one way sign. In other words the state should not meddle in the business of the church and make rules and regulations limiting the freedom of religion.
I believe Jefferson thought that it was good to make legislation based on the christian values and that way influence the state.
(i am not a US citizen so i could be wrong but i have seen/heard it explained this way)
I feel the same way on this subject.
The state should not tell the church what they can and cannot do but the christian values should prevent the making of legislation that goes against Gods commandments.

so what does the bible say about respecting leaders that are trying to take care of the poor by asking the rich to pay their share?

a few verses come to mind.
Marc 12: 30-31 Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment is and He answers.
"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Acts 2:44-46 Speak about how the first christians lived.
"And all that believed were together, and had all things common. And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart"

I think these verses make clear how we should treat our neighbours (which are the poor too!)
We should have a caring heart for those of us that do not have much or are in need.
You can see how the first christians sold everything they had and shared it with everyone who needed it, they possessed everything together. They were certainly not materialistic.
But i know that the apostle paul said somewhere that it should not be so that some work and others do nothing and have a free life on the expense of the others. (don't know the verse, if you want i will look it up)
I think rich people would be doing good to give substantial part of their income to which are in need and do not have the means to support themselves, if they do, i believe the Lord will abundantly bless and reward them.

The bible does not say anything specific about leaders who want to do this specific thing but i think God would agree that we should have more equality in income and possesions.

@kreagle
Loved the video!!! It goes straight in the video worship collection, thanks.

wynderer

30th August 2012, 17:49

hi Kreagle -- a suggestion: instead of bringing up Old Testament & New Teastament quotes from the Bible, how about focussing more on the Gospels? -- granted, all Holy Books have been perverted to some degree by The Enemy, but a lot of what Jesus said & meant gets thru those 4 books/accounts

i have noticed, on tv[when i can't escape it] & on the radio , that 'Chritian' preachers seem to never talk about what Jesus said -- they're big into Paul, who had that weird thing about women's hair & the 'fallen angels [or whatever he called them] -- & , of course, Revelations is exciting -- & one can wander around in the Old Testament for a lifetime, even getting into 'secret codes' & such

meanwhile, right in the heart of your book, stands some pretty interesting thoughts, in the Gospels

wyn

CD7

30th August 2012, 18:09

kreagle

30th August 2012, 20:32

Hey wynderer,

hi Kreagle -- a suggestion: instead of bringing up Old Testament & New Teastament quotes from the Bible, how about focussing more on the Gospels? -- granted, all Holy Books have been perverted to some degree by The Enemy, but a lot of what Jesus said & meant gets thru those 4 books/accounts

As always, I appreciate any 'suggestions' and help I can get. I believe you will find that I use the '4 Books of the Gospel' quite often, in that I greatly love them myself. My usage of the other 'Old and New Testament Scriptures' come as the 'Spirit' guides me, and according to when they are relevant to the 'subject matter being discussed'. We must remember that Jesus did, indeed, say,......" It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4) I do take the words of Jesus, here, as meaning 'the entire Word of God', and not omitting anything. It 'all blends together, beautifully',.....from Genesis 1:1......through.......Revelation 22:21....where It concludes with 'Amen!' I have yet to find 'any contradictions' in my Bible. I welcome anyone who wishes to 'point out some', if they should wish to do so!

Thanks, greatly, for your reply and valued input, my dear friend!

Your brother, friend, and servant.........kreagle

kreagle

30th August 2012, 20:44

Oh lordy hell....................................the previous posts that go round and round in their dissection of phrases to the bloody end is what happens with this book! It is words written in a book that appear jumbled up and misplaced. Each scripture sentence word syllable analyzed and interpreted into a tower of babble. Whew! OK Got tht off my chest hehehehe

the kingdom is within and you are your own god are pieces i resonate with

christinedream7,

Oh lordy hell....................................

My dear,...you definitely turned onto the 'right thread',........but you are going in the......'wrong direction!!!'

Required reading, my dear friend!,......
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?49175-Focus-and-Respect---Or-you-ll-destroy-cogent-conversations.-&p=546035&viewfull=1#post546035

Please come back, with a little more respect, my friend!

Your brother, friend, and servant..........kreagle

CD7

30th August 2012, 22:45

Rocky_Shorz

31st August 2012, 01:42

Rocky_Shorz,

Your brother, friend, and servant.........kreagle
thanks kreagle,

I've been on a long lonely path, if it wasn't for my friends at Avalon, I wouldn't have anyone to share this with...

your kindness following my frustrated outburst is what Christianity is known for...

it's the hearts of Christians that makes Christianity so special...

Hey brother,

It's 'times like these' that gives the believer a chance to 'put his money where his mouth is', so-to-speak!

The 'message you deliver, during trying times',.....has a rather certain sound, which should be nothing but, .......charity, (love)!

[I]1 Corinthians 13:1
King James Version (KJV)

well remember who it was that created the start of the King James Bible...

It was the ‘wisest fool in Christendom’, King James I, who ‘authorised’ the translation and publication of the first Protestant version of the Bible into English. He came to the English throne in 1603 and quickly became unpopular because of ‘his disgusting personal habits and his unsavory character’.

He pretended to be a scholar in theology and philosophy, but his learning was shallow and superficial. He wallowed in filth, moral and physical, but was endowed with a share of cunning that his associates called, ‘a kind of crooked wisdom ’.

For his new edition of the Bible he issued a set of personal ‘Rules’ the translators were to follow and ordered revisions to proceed, although he never contributed a farthing to its cost. Work began early in 1607 and took a committee of forty-seven men (some records say fifty-four, others say fifty) two years and nine months to rewrite the Bible and make ready for the press...

it is still in a language I don't understand, so I have a modern translation that has much different meaning to what my mind translates from KJV

I've been chewed out for quoting from it because it wasn't "Original translation"

sorry I still prefer English... ;)

Rocky_Shorz

31st August 2012, 01:47

remember Kreagle, more here understand christinedream7, than what you are sharing...

we are a motley crew all looking for answers, we have our quirks, but huge hearts that really mean well...

to share your wisdom, sometimes you need to come down to a level of understanding for all of us...

you should be happy she came in to join the conversation...

Patience is a virtue... ;)

she's my bud

Rocky_Shorz

31st August 2012, 03:36

kreagle

31st August 2012, 04:42

Please come back, with a little more respect, my friend!

Your brother, friend, and servant..........kreagle

Expressing personal emotion is in no way disrespecting you...its a "saying" "an expression" nothing was directed at you.... If you were truly my friend you would appreciate my expression not judge it

christinedream7,

You need to understand that I, in no way, have taken your words to have disrespected 'me' ! I don't matter,.....only Him,...Jesus Christ! It's the part that's between your 'opening line',......"Oh lordy hell,........................and....................Whew! OK Got tht off my chest hehehehe.",....that is the disrespectful part, my friend. Either you didn't read the OP,...or the link by Kristin,....or the link by Dennis Leahy,.....or perhaps you simply don't understand, or are indifferent.

Between your 'opening remark,.............and your hehehehe', you state the following.......

the previous posts that go round and round in their dissection of phrases to the bloody end is what happens with this book! It is words written in a book that appear jumbled up and misplaced. Each scripture sentence word syllable analyzed and interpreted into a tower of babble

I'm simply going to point out that.....

1) This was your 'first post' on this thread,.....(not a good way to begin, my friend!)

2) You express complete disdain for the 'previous posts'......

3) ......and systematically categorize it as....'interpreted into a tower of babble'

4) Your 'middle sentence' is the most damaging of all,......"It is words written in a book that appear jumbled up and misplaced." ( Question: Do you really 'feel this way' about God's Word? Don't you understand how 'disrespectful' this is to Him, and His Word?)

5) Finally you end your statement, (mind you, your '1st post here!'),....with a very childish statement, ''Whew! OK Got tht off my chest hehehehe."

Now,.....do you still want to 'proclaim your complete innocence', here?

Is 'this' your 'standard general approach you use when you don't like something'?

Don't you think you've been a 'little out of line, here?'

( For 'those who will listen',......"I have a plea from my heart!"......)

christinedream7,.....and 'everyone else',.....

I have a great desire and 'calling from God' to share some 'special things' with 'any and all' who would like to 'enrich and improve' your 'personal walk and relationship with God!' I can't imagine ANYONE turning an opportunity like that down, that's if their heart is honest in God! I've already stated,...back on page 4 of this thread, Post #68,....that 'kreagle doesn't know everything!' If any of you have gotten that impression,.....boy are you wrong! I am still learning,....and will be 'still learning',......all the way to the grave, or the 'rapture of His Church', whichever comes first! Guess what?,.....I am learning from you, too!

I 'implore each and everyone of you',....to be patient, and to allow the 'operation of the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, to continue to work within this 'thread' so that we can 'all achieve the desired results' that I spoke about above. I am sure that there have been things presented, here, that many of you don't completely understand,.....and that's to be expected. I will make a solemn promise to 'everyone' that I will prayerfully endeavor to 'break things down' as much as possible, so that everyone can prosper in this thread!

If a question arises that one doesn't understand,....let's discuss it,...however you may like. It may be conducive for us to discuss it via a PM, etc. I only ask 'everyone',....from this point on to be respectful,...in this order:,...1) To Him, Lord Jesus,.....2) His Word, the Bible,.....3) and finally to 'each other' !!! Anything less, is completely 'out of order' and totally non-Biblical. If we can commit to 'these simple rules',...we will prosper!

We must 'continue in harmony',.....that's the least God expects from you and I!!!

A 'previous post of mine'.....link:http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?49181-Harmonizing-together---&p=546115&viewfull=1#post546115

Remember the 'lesson of the babies, folk!!!'
to7uIG8KYhg

By the way,....christinedream7,.....I expect, and want, you to come back,..OK?

Your friend, brother, and servant,........kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

31st August 2012, 04:51

kreagle

31st August 2012, 07:10

I know what I am sharing sounds very harsh, I myself feel getting recognition every time a passage is read for the life of Christianity is a bit much for this King...

let me share what your gift is, you can understand what is written and translate it into words we understand.

you could stop quoting, and start sharing the meaning behind each message instead...

very very few are capable of what you do naturally...

PBUK is asking for peace for the messenger in case the translation wasn't perfect... ;)

Hey again, Rocky_Shorz,

I know what I am sharing sounds very harsh

Brother, let me say, here, that since we had a little 'PM time together', and also on this thread, that I sense a totally different direction,...to the good,....in you spirit. I fully appreciate what I have observed and heard, since then!

I myself feel getting recognition every time a passage is read for the life of Christianity is a bit much for this King...

let me share what your gift is, you can understand what is written and translate it into words we understand.

you could stop quoting, and start sharing the meaning behind each message instead...

very very few are capable of what you do naturally...

Let me say this to 'all',....in relationship to 'quoting the Word of God',.....and I implore you to think of the significance of what I say, here!,........

'ONLY HIS WORDS,...THE BIBLE,....CAN SAVE YOU!!!',.......'kreagle's alone, cannot!'

Let me explain......

Do you realize that 'time after time' when Jesus was faced with 'monumental moments',.....( ie.,.....being tempted of the Devil,.....battling the Pharisees,.......talking about John the Baptist,......cleansing of the Temple of God,....when He was betrayed by Judas,.....when referring to Elijah the prophet,....and on, and on, and on.......) HE.....said 'three simple words'..........

When 'great men of God' equally 'time after time' were also faced with 'monumental moments',......(ie.,..... the Prophet Samuel,......the Prophet Ezra,.....the Prophet Nehemiah,.....King David,.....the Prophet Isaiah,.....the Prophet Jeremiah,.....the Prophet Daniel,......and on, and on,.....) THEY,...equally said 'three simple words'........

And 'those three simple words',....were 'these',.......'IT IS WRITTEN'.......

And from that point, in each of these cases involving #1),..our Lord,....and #2) His Servants,......they went on to attach a 'particular passage of Scripture' to those three golden words,....'It is written'.

You see, Rocky_Shorz, no one like our Lord, Jesus Christ and His servants, (great men of God that they were), understands the 'complete power and victory' of the 'spoken, recorded, and written Word of God!!', like He,..and they did!

I can, most humbly, assure you Rocky_Shorz, that 'this servant' fully realizes and recognizes it , also!

That's 'exactly the reason I use it',(and will continue to do so)......every chance I get!

Oh, I am fully cognizant to the fact that there is a 'massive attempt to silence the Word',....and to 'tone things down'. Satan wants to 'silence us',....for he cannot fight, or win,....against the Word! He didn't back then,...in ancient biblical times,....and he can't now,...in modern times,.....'if',....we will utilize the 'same tools our Lord used on him, too!

Now with this in mind, Rocky_Shorz, I completely and fully agree with you, as you state.....

you can understand what is written and translate it into words we understand.

also.......

and start sharing the meaning behind each message instead...

Believe me brother, in the name of Jesus',...( and by His Spirit, the Holy Ghost),....I am carefully, and prayerfully, endeavoring to do,....'exactly that!'

( To 'those who know',....His words,.....are 'pure light',....that some and/or most,...cannot see or understand!,.....BUT,.....the Spirit will 'guide the hungry and the thirsty',....so my solemn advice to 'all' is to develop a 'hunger and thirst' for the Word of God!

Remember,......God will,......NOT,......'force feed you'!

But 'if',....you really,...I mean really,...want it,.....He will feed you and 'open your understanding!!!'

Matthew 5:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled

I will also insert what I previously stated in my reply to christinedream7,...and 'all', here,.......

I will make a solemn promise to 'everyone' that I will prayerfully endeavor to 'break things down' as much as possible, so that everyone can prosper in this thread!

I can assure you 'all' that I eagerly anticipate 'our' next conversation!

Your brother, friend, and servant,.........Love to 'all'!,.....kreagle

P.S.,.....brother,...this is the 'only thing that has me 'stumped',...please explain?

PBUK is asking for peace for the messenger in case the translation wasn't perfect ??????

kreagle

31st August 2012, 10:20

To 'everyone',......got another wonderful 'praise song' for your enjoyment, in the Lord!

The 'title' to this song 'says it all'......."Our God!!"
cDwT6tc71hc

He, alone, is worthy to be praised!

I love you 'all', very deeply and profoundly,........in Jesus' name,.........kreagle

Tarka the Duck

31st August 2012, 11:06

Hello Kreagle

I'm not understanding the use of the word "Our" in that song. Is that as opposed to "Your"?

kreagle

31st August 2012, 11:17

Hello Kreagle

I'm not understanding the use of the word "Our" in that song. Is that as opposed to "Your"?

Sounds like you're,....'ducking the issue',.....my dear friend. He's 'your's, also,.....'if' you want Him!

Peace,.....brother!

kreagle

Tarka the Duck

31st August 2012, 11:56

Hahahahaha! :rolleyes:

For me, the constant repetition of the word "our" is a bit disturbing and could be heard as divisive if one was of a particular mindset.

In fact, if I'm going to be brutally honest, the whole presentation of this is comletely alien to my delicate European sensibilities...I'm sure they are sincere, but I run a million miles from this type of razzmatazz. Just a taste thing :o

Kathie

Rocky_Shorz

31st August 2012, 14:05

Peace Be Upon Kreagle = PBUK ;)

if ever in doubt, it's a joke... ;)

King James does not deserve recognition each time words are quoted from this translation since it was done by 47 under direction of the Templar, not him.

each time you recognize him before a message, what do you think readers are thinking...

leave it at KJV and readers can fill in Kinda Jumbled Version in their mind...

You, the one delivering this message from the bible, is far more important to me than a dead King...

kreagle

31st August 2012, 22:10

Tarka the Duck, my 'sister'

Let me begin with profoundly apologizing, once again, for referring to you as 'brother'. I've done this before, elsewhere,....and I've got to remember to 'do a little more 'investigative work' before I 'open my big mouth' ! Please forgive me, 'sister!'

Hahahahaha!

For me, the constant repetition of the word "our" is a bit disturbing and could be heard as divisive if one was of a particular mindset.

In fact, if I'm going to be brutally honest, the whole presentation of this is comletely alien to my delicate European sensibilities...I'm sure they are sincere, but I run a million miles from this type of razzmatazz. Just a taste thing

Kathie

I want you to know that I 'fully understand' where you are coming from, sister. What you need to realize is that what you, and others, are viewing on that particular video clip, is a large group of people who have 'literally been set free!' That, to be brutally honest with you, also,.....is 'exactly what you are seeing there. Consequently, it has become an 'ownership thing to them',.....hence the term,..."Our God"! Thank goodness, this 'ownership thing' is not exclusive, in that, it is unquestionably for 'whosoever will'! Anyone can 'join right in,....and join up',......'membership is wide open', my 'European' friend.

You know, Tarka the Duck,....(or 'more realistically', Kathie), I've got a suggestion for you that might illustrate, more adequately, what I am trying to convey to you, here. Why don't you click on the above video clip, one more time,....but this time,....'MUTE' the sound. That's right,.....don't listen to the 'music or words' at all,.....just simply 'observe' what's going on before your very eyes! Span the large crowd that's there, Kathie,.....what do you see? Kathie,....these people are free! ('If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.' John 8:36)

No, Kathie, my dear,.....it's not your 'delicate European sensibilities' kicking in, here,.........it's much, much more sensitive than that, my dear friend!

God bless you, my dear friend!,......your brother, friend, and servant.........kreagle

kreagle

1st September 2012, 06:28

Hey Rocky_Shorz,

King James does not deserve recognition each time words are quoted from this translation since it was done by 47 under direction of the Templar, not him.

each time you recognize him before a message, what do you think readers are thinking...

leave it at KJV and readers can fill in Kinda Jumbled Version in their mind...

You, the one delivering this message from the bible, is far more important to me than a dead King...

I know you have made reference to the usage of the KJV, on this and other threads, and I understand where you are coming from, my friend.

If it's any consolation to you,...my current pastor, (a wonderfully anointed man of God), also does not care for the KJV, primarily because of the 'language used', (ie. 'thee,....thou,......shalt,.....dieth,....killeth, etc). He, point blank, has stated that 'God doesn't use the King's language,.....as stated in the KJV'. I also understand where He's coming from, but we both are in complete agreement that the 'core Gospel Message' and 'validity of It's contents' remain in contact and that It's integrity has not been compromised!

I also am in agreement with you that old King James, himself, was basically a 'reprobate' in character, to say the least. However, the many scholars who gathered themselves together for one of the 'oldest English translation's available' went through some pretty rigorous steps and procedures to ensure that the 'original texts',....( Hebrew for the Old Testament,....and.....Greek for the New Testament),....were meticulously copied and recorded,....word for word. I know this is up for debate, in certain scholastic minds,....but I am thoroughly convinced that this would still be the case, regardless if 'all' of the scholars who gathered themselves for this event had been ushered there on the 'wings of angels!'

This brings me to my final comment on the KJV, which I use. In the infancy of my new-found 'walk with God',.....I remember that I, too, had a good deal of difficulty understanding many of the passages in the KJV, also. I had purchased my 'new KJV Bible', (one of my most prized possessions), just a few days after I had been baptized in Jesus' name back on January 30, 1981,( 26 yrs. old, then). I vividly recall that as I was 'tarrying to be filled with the Holy Ghost',....I would earnestly read the scriptures, from my 'new KJV Bible', and quite frankly, wasn't fully understanding or comprehending what I was reading! All of that completely took a 'dramatic turn' when, on February 22, 1981, ( 23 days after I was baptized in Jesus' name), I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, God's Spirit, and began to 'speak in other tongues',...which gave me the unquestionable evidence that I had, indeed, been filled with His Spirit!! Suddenly, and miraculously, I immediately came to realize that I was under the 'tutelage' of a 'New Schoolmaster'. The Spirit of God literally became my Teacher!

John 16:13-14
King James Version (KJV)

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Rocky_Shorz, it may be just as hard for you 'now',....(just like it was for me, back 'then'), to understand, fully, what had just happened to me! Miraculously,.....those 'same passages' that I had read,....'just a few days earlier',.....made 'perfect sense to me, now!' Friend,.....I was totally blown away! Time after time,.....page after page,.....scripture after scripture,.....'It was all making sense to me, now!' I would call my wife into the room, where I was reading my Bible, and begin to 'share with her my 'findings'! As I would 'cross reference' various passages,....from the Old Testament to the New Testament,.....from this passage to that passage,....connecting the 'dots',....here and there,.....my wife would look at me in 'utter amazement' and ask,....."How, in the world do you see this?,......Who showed you this?",....to which I could only humbly, and honestly, reply,......"God!!!" Not only had God filled me with His Spirit,....but now He was beginning the task of 'renewing my mind', too!

Romans 12:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rocky_Shorz,......brother, I could literally go.....'on and on',.....but I think, and hope, you are grasping my point, here, my dear friend. You see,.....regardless if a person uses the KJV,....or NKJV,....or NIV,....or NASB,...or NLT, etc.,.....grab hold of 'one of them' and use it, my dear, dear, friend!!

And let me lovingly warn 'every one of you',.....that it will be imperative for you,.....just like it was for me,.....to equally place yourself in a position so that you, too, can receive the 'infilling of the Spirit of God, the Holy Ghost',...likewise, in your life!

For without His Spirit, fully resident in your life, you're going to wind up being 'frustrated,....unfulfilled,....and lacking' in your 'walk with God', my dear friends. Furthermore, you will find that,.... (regardless of the 'version of Bible' you choose),....you're going to wind up 'scratching your head',....and ultimately clueless as to what He is 'really trying to say, and reveal, to you!'

'Spiritual material,........requires a,.......Spiritual mind!!'

As always!,.....your brother, friend, and servant.........kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

1st September 2012, 06:56

there are translations done from the original texts, into modern English instead of a language 500 years old, it just relates better with people who want to know the bible's messages, it takes someone very dedicated to understand the KJV, but these questions really had nothing to do with the book as much as your replies... ;)

most here at Avalon are very Spiritual they are connected far beyond most, because they understand God is there for all of us, we don't need someone to speak to him for us.

you are here for a special reason, there are many reading that are hurting and needing your knowledge, but they write with personalities, part of a different generation.

be like me and understand it's them being them, they are coming to you with questions they've always wanted to ask someone, you are in the confessional ready for the knock on the door... ;)

kreagle

1st September 2012, 10:26

Lightworker87

1st September 2012, 12:59

The message of a master.
the scret.
the lost book of enki.

just a few suggestions that helped me understand the bible more...

Lifebringer

1st September 2012, 13:35

This Trust should have also have been applied to helping this President who speaks for 99% of the people suffering the party of NO. When you run a car without oil/little people moving the gears of the economy, you wear it down and you either keep the vehicle by repairing the engine, (rebuilt or new) or buy a new vehicle. The vehicle has to be "trustworthy if used" Romney is used/car salesman and liar, who is supported by the Koch brothers, plain and simple. These brothers funded both sides of the WW2 and this is who their voters are supporting. A communist/facist warmongering group, that keeps the party of reason, out of the conversation. People are tired of getting the middle finger by Republican Corporate Wall Street Puppets.

They should vote for their freedom, not more outsourcing, because that is how MITT made his BILLIONS he has offshore, and his taxes will prove it.

Krullenjongen

1st September 2012, 14:08

Hello Kreagle

I'm not understanding the use of the word "Our" in that song. Is that as opposed to "Your"?

I think this has nothing to do with devision as in mine in opposition to yours.
It has to do with perspective.
Some songs are written from a personal perspective and you sing things like "i love you Lord..." and "You are my God"
The other category is written from a communal perspective. you must keep in mind that a lot of song are sang in a communal form like in church where you sing with a whole bunch of other people who are there for the same reason and have the same goal.
So from that perspective you can also sing thing like "we love you Lord..." and "You are our God"
I think this song some falls in the later catagory.

Krullenjongen

1st September 2012, 14:15

Peace Be Upon Kreagle = PBUK ;)

LOL, i didin't get it either, but it is very funny Rocky_Shortz

Krullenjongen

1st September 2012, 14:35

kreagle

1st September 2012, 20:55

Are there any thoughts on this 'event' in Victoria, Texas?

Here is the passage that has caused this 'uproar'.

Psalm 109:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.

kz89kVZQICE

Well this verse comes to mind.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." (Rom 13:1)

Doesn't that mean that Obama is in power because God allowed him to be?

Hey Krullenjongen my brother,

I have to say that I, equally, agree with you,...and especially in the light of the passage you have shared here, (Romans 13:1). Regardless to whether one might 'support or reject' Obama,.....(or whoever might be currently in office),....we owe it to ourselves to 'respect the office'.

I, purposely, was 'neutral on this subject' at the onset of this particular question. I wanted to get the opinions of 'others' without influencing their thinking. I will admit that I was hesitant in this particular 'subject matter',....because I fully realize the potential 'can of worms' that often wind up being opened, in reference to 'politics'!

The usage of the 'actual Word of God', here, appears somewhat 'crafty', at the first glance of what It says here. Surely there are a great deal of Americans who would agree with the sentiments of what this passage says here,......'Let his days be few; and let another take his office.' On the 'surface' this passage looks harmless enough, but,.....that's the problem,...because for those who will go to the trouble to look beyond the 'surface,......to the innermost meaning' of the passage, you will find that there is much 'ill will and intent' surrounding that passage in Psalms 109:8.

Was it the desires of the 'user of this passage' to cause Obama's 'children to become fatherless,....or his wife to be an widow?' If you go to this chapter in the Bible you will find that this passage does, indeed, say this. It was originally said by a distraught David in reference to his 'enemies',.....and in a totally different light.

The point that I would like to make, here, is that we don't have the 'right,...or the permission' to take the Word of God 'out of context', like it was done in this example.

None of us should ever use the 'Word of God as our own personal whip!!' I'm afraid this is what this individual did, in reality!

This is also an 'excellent example' where various individuals 'pick and choose' various passages,...('by themselves'),......in an effort to 'prove their point'. To make matters worse,....more often than not, they know better to begin with, in that they know they are 'bending and molding the passages' to fit their agenda.

Two passages come to mind, here,......

2 Peter 3:15-16
King James Version (KJV)

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

and also,........

Proverbs 14:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Just a few points that merit our 'serious consideration!'

Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

P.S. Thank you, so much, brother, for your PM's to me. They are a great 'asset' to me and I cherish your insight. kreagle

kreagle

1st September 2012, 22:28

Guess what?,.....I am learning from you, too!

We are all gathered here at Avalon to learn from each other, I enjoy leaning back as the student as much as teaching...
one day at a time my friend...

now, where were we...

hello again Rocky_Shorz,

Brother, I completely concur with your statement, here,....especially the part I 'highlighted!' God forbid that I ever get to the point in my 'personal walk with God' that I become disillusioned into thinking that I have 'reached a graduating point' of being a 'student!' This particular 'class is always in session' and you don't want to be 'tardy,.....or certainly not absent' when the 'roll call is given!'

Speaking of class,.......do you know that I,...just now,....'finally' got what you were referring to in your 'joking statement'........

PBUK is asking for peace for the messenger in case the translation wasn't perfect...

"Duh!,.....boy can I be stupid, sometimes!" Even after you revealed to me what PBUK meant,....I still didn't 'get it' until a follow-up comment by Krullenjongen made me take another look at your statement above.......

per Krullenjongen......

LOL, i didin't get it either, but it is very funny Rocky_Shortz

Finally, I understand your 'jest',....followed by a 'chuckle', myself.

However, as I return to the 'somber truth' of the task that's before us all,....I have to, and will, rely upon the 'leading of God's Spirit' to continue to do as He promised. He promised to 'lead and guide me',.....and to that I am persuaded that He is not going to lead me off the end of a 'dead man's plank!' When you think of the 'ploys of Satan' and his deceptive tactics,.....that's exactly what he would like for all of us to believe! But by faith in Him, and His glorious Word, the pathway realistically becomes a 'roadway to His Glory!'

In regards to this, Paul warns us all,....to keep walking.....

1 Corinthians 15:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

There is a 'prize' for us all,...on the 'other side',.....keep walking, by faith!

Your brother, friend, and servant..........kreagle

kreagle

2nd September 2012, 05:48

Hey, brother's and sister's,.......got a little topic here, that we all deal with some time or the other.

"What's Itching you?"

Just beyond the reach of satisfaction,........
http://moogoo.com.au/media/InlineContentImages/pic7702novforweb.gif

No!,....I'm not talking about 'itching' that!,...well, (you know what),....but I'm referring to the 'areas of our lives' that irritate us, to the point of developing an almost 'uncontrollable desire to be itched',.....or satisfied,....or shall we more pointedly say,.....'answered!!' You all know what I mean,......we all have them,....no one is immune! It's times like these that we really 'need each other',....for more often than not,....those 'spiritually irritated areas' of our individual lives are, once again,.....just beyond the reach of satisfaction! We simply can't reach them,...alone!

Ponder, my friends, brothers', and sisters'!

Let's,.....help each other out!!!

'Itching to hear from you!',........your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

kreagle

3rd September 2012, 06:36

To 'everyone'......

There is a very wonderful topic by mariposafe, titled 'Abundance' that I highly recommend to each of you to 'view and contribute' to, as you can. You will see that I posted my comment on post #14. I don't mind telling you that I became pretty emotional, (as I do in most of my posts), as I recalled and related my dealings with an 'Abundant God'. Once again, I highly recommend it to you! I've also enclosed a link to it for your convenience,...now or later!

link:http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?49327---a-b-u-n-d-a-n-c-e--&p=547759&viewfull=1#post547759

God bless you all,.....your friend, brother, and servant,.........kreagle

kreagle

4th September 2012, 02:46

The 'actual photo' says one thing,.....but,......the 'shadow' says something entirely different!'

Are we passing up, (or by),.....'golden opportunities?'
http://assets.perfectlytimedphotos.com/hashed_silo_content/silo_content/34298/resized/perfect2.jpg

Hmmmmmm,.....makes you wonder, doesn't it? Ever wonder, in life, if you've somehow been guilty of passing by your 'chance of a lifetime',....or even your one, and only, 'true love?' Maybe someone, here, would like to discuss this!

You know,....it appears that the dog is the only one in the picture who is 'sensitive enough to see the potential union', here, doesn't it? No wonder the dog is known as 'man's best friend!'

Psalm 91:1
King James Version (KJV)

91 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

As always,....your brother, friend, and servant,......kreagle

kreagle

6th September 2012, 06:04

A 'room' made especially for you! (Genesis 6:14-22)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zyjI5r45aIs/UCNLSY3BTdI/AAAAAAAACgY/0ipSCw97Fmw/s1600/medium_684442050.jpg

I realize that 'at first glance', many might become offended at this particular age old Biblical image. I can assure you that our adversaries, ( Satan and whoever else they may be), would like you to believe that God is, once again, treating us all like a 'bunch of animals',.....corralling us all together,....and cramming us on a 'vessel of salvation! This 'mentality' is further backed-up and proven to be true by our 'many detractors' who seem to derive great pleasure in referring to the 'dedicated Christian of today' as nothing more than a 'sheeple!' In other words,.....we are literally 'half people.......half sheep........and 'all' NUTS!' The same voice(s) we hear today is nothing more than an 'echo from yesterday' which said much the same thing as this 'magnificent vessel', (above), was constructed.

http://densmodelships.zoomshare.com/files/N.A.Store_Pics/Ark_Of_Noah.jpg

Those 'same voices' have further tried to prove that it 'just isn't possible' for the ark to be able to contain everything that it 'was suppose to contain'. They say 'there just isn't enough room!' What a horrible indictment to charge God with!!

Not only was there 'plenty of room' on Noah's ark, (specifically designed by God),.....but, in reality, there were 'rooms' left over,....and never actually used,....if you look just a little deeper into the mindset of our Lord God!

Note the following,......The ark was in construction for approximately 100 years, (begun around the time Noah was 500 years old, and concluded in his 600th year,...Gen. 5:32 and Gen. 7:11). Noah was also referred to as a 'preacher of righteousness... 2 Peter 2:5). Consequently, whenever Noah was not actively 'building the ark' with his 3 sons,....he was 'preaching and warning' of the coming calamity upon all of mankind, the Flood.

It was the 'full intention of God' for others,....many others,....to have joined Noah, his 3 sons, and their wives! Only 'eight souls' were saved from this calamity, ( 1 Peter 3:20),...far short of the 'design and desires' of God!

The 'casual observer' might inquisitively ask,...."just how do you know this?"

The answer to this lies clearly in the scriptures, in that,.....#1) Noah was instructed to 'make rooms in the ark' (Gen. 6:14),.....#2) Noah was a 'preacher of righteousness', warning humanity as the ark was in construction ( 2 Peter 2:5),.......and #3) If God thought enough of humanity to 'send them a preacher',.....then He equally had a 'room to put them in' should they simply come to Him and heed the warning of Noah! The 'plans of God' are always completely thought out by Him and prepared for any scenario!

Those many 'rooms' in the ark, constructed by Noah per the 'blueprint of God' were in no way meant to be 'exclusively for the animals', nor just for the 'eight souls' consisting of Noah, his wife, Ham, Shem, Japheth, and their 3 wives. Somewhere on that massive ark, there were literally 'empty rooms' meant to be filled!!

(in conclusion)

Clearly the 'vessel of salvation' of the Genesis' account was a massive ark, designed by God. Today's 'vessel of salvation' is spoken of, and revealed, as the 'New Testament Church' born into existence on the Day of Pentecost, and equally designed by God. As Noah was instructed to 'add the animals and his family' to this 'vessel of salvation',...We find that God, Himself, is doing the 'same today!',.......

'......And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.' (Acts 2:47)

The 'dissenting voice of yesterday' even echos loudly today, too, with the 'same message of unbelief'. It still blares out the message that,....."God's vessel of salvation is inadequate and doesn't have room for you!''But not only are they wrong about the 'room',.....but the 'size of it , also!'

John 14:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

It seems that those 'rooms',.......have become,......'mansions!'

And just think!,......'one of them has got your name on it!'

Reservations,.....anyone?

As always,....your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

6th September 2012, 20:46

kreagle

7th September 2012, 01:50

did you know Black ops had dropped in on Noah's Ark to recover objects from inside, it is sitting 13,500 feet high in Kurdistan...

we have the video here on Avalon somewhere...

close is what they call the Garden of Eden, on the edge of Armenia, also the oldest Christian Church that is still standing on the side of the lake.

of course the dog saw what was happening, can't spell dog without G O D... ;)

Hey Rocky_Shorz,

Here is a link to a story,....along with pictures, and video link to what you are probably referring to. If anyone can produce anything additional, I would like to see it, as I am sure others would, also.

link:http://www.wnd.com/2010/04/146369/

http://www.wnd.com/images/arkbeam1.jpg
Is this a beam from Noah’s Ark? Explorers with Noah’s Ark Ministries International have released this photo of a wooden structure it says it has documented at an altitude of 13,000 feet on Mount Ararat in Turkey.

“It’s not 100 percent that it is Noah’s Ark but we think it is 99.9 percent that this is it,” Yeung Wing-cheung, a Hong Kong documentary filmmaker and member of the 15-person team from Noah’s Ark Ministries International, told Agence France-Presse.

The team says it recovered wooden specimens from a structure on Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey at an altitude of 13,000 feet and that carbon dating suggested it was 4,800 years old.

Several compartments, some with wooden beams, are said to be inside and could have been used to house animals, the group indicated.

Yes, Noah’s Ark is completely real! Now find out “what you don’t Noah” about the story as well as your spectacular destiny they rarely ever mention in church in this autographed No. 1 best-seller!

Another NAMI explorer, Yuen Manfai, said at the Hong Kong news conference: “The search team and I personally entered a wooden structure high on the mountain. The structure is partitioned into different spaces. We believe that the wooden structure we entered is the same structure recorded in historical accounts and the same ancient boat indicated by the locals.”

http://www.wnd.com/images/arkexploring1.jpg
In this photo from Noah’s Ark Ministries International, an explorer is investigating a wooden structure on Mount Ararat in Turkey that may be the remnant of Noah’s Ark mentioned in the Bible

The group of archaeologists ruled out an established human settlement, explaining one had never been found above 11,500 feet in the vicinity.

“The search team has made the greatest discovery in history,” said Prof. Oktay Belli, an archaeologist at Istanbul University. “This finding is very important and the greatest up to now.”

http://www.wnd.com/images/arkwithice1.jpg
The structure reportedly found on Mount Ararat is surrounded by rock and ice (courtesy: Noah’s Ark Ministries International).

Ahmet Ertugrul, leader of the search team, was first to get information on the location before commencing the hunt.

“I got to know the secret location in June 2008,” he said. “The source told me that this is Noah’s Ark. I took a team there for the search around the region and found a wooden structure. I took some photographs of the interior structure. Since I have worked closely with NAMI for some years, I informed them of the discovery.”

Some video of the find has already been posted on YouTube and can be seen here:

AGIUfWXvwJI

The team also said local officials would ask the national government in Ankara to apply for United Nations World Heritage status so the site can be protected during an archaeological dig.

As WND has reported, after centuries of scouring the Earth for Noah’s Ark, numerous claims have been flooding in
over the past few years regarding possible discoveries of the Old Testament ship.

In June 2006, a 14-man crew that included evangelical apologist Josh McDowell said it
returned from a trek to a mountain in Iran with possible evidence of the ark’s remains.

The group, led by explorer Bob Cornuke, found an unusual object perched on a
slope 13,120 feet above sea level.

They said some of the wood-like rocks they tested proved to be petrified
wood.

Meanwhile, another ark hunter is the late Edward Crawford, a former draftsman illustrator for the U.S. military who taught Christian theology at Evergreen Bible Presbyterian Church in the Seattle area.

Crawford made numerous climbs up Ararat
and said in 1990, he discovered a large, rectangular structure buried in the ice
at an elevation of 14,765 feet.

“I don’t have any doubt about it at all, and
the Turks don’t either,” he told WND.

He said the structure sits under snow
and ice, which he called “ridiculously hard stuff.”

Crawford put much of his discovery online
at a website called Project von Bora, where photographs and
diagrams are available, and he believed the structure has 90-degree angles.

http://www.wnd.com/images2/vonborasite.gif
Edward Crawford believed a rectangular Noah’s Ark
lies at this location on Mount Ararat (courtesy Edward Crawford).

“Those don’t happen in nature,” he said. “If
you think someone went up there to build that, it would take a greater miracle
than the Flood [of Noah] itself.”

Not far from Crawford’s “structure” on Mount
Ararat is something which made headlines in March 2006 with the release
of a new, high-resolution digital image of what has become known as the “Ararat
Anomaly.”

http://www.wnd.com/images2/AraratAnomaly1.jpg
Satellite image of ‘Ararat Anomaly,’ taken by DigitalGlobe’s
QuickBird Satellite in 2003 (courtesy: DigitalGlobe).

The location of the anomaly on the mountain’s
northwest corner has been under investigation from afar by ark hunters for
years, but it has remained unexplored, with the government of Turkey not
granting any scientific expedition permission to explore on-site.

“I’ve got newfound optimism … as far as my
continuing push to have the intelligence community declassify some of the more
definitive-type imagery,” Porcher Taylor, an associate professor in paralegal
studies at the University of Richmond, said at the time.

For more than three decades, Taylor has been a
national security analyst, and has also served as a senior associate for five
years at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington,
D.C.

“I had no preconceived notions or agendas when
I began this in 1993 as to what I was looking for,” he said. “I maintain that if
it is the remains of something man-made and potentially nautical, then it’s
potentially something of biblical proportions.”

The anomaly remains ensconced in glacial ice at
an altitude of 15,300 feet, and Taylor says the photos suggest its
length-to-width ratio is close to 6:1, as indicated in the Book of Genesis.

The mountains of Ararat

Some 15 miles from Mount Ararat is perhaps the
most well-known candidate vying for the title of Noah’s Ark.

http://www.wnd.com/images2/arkwyattsite1.jpg
Many believe this is Noah’s Ark, already found on
a mountain next to Mt. Ararat (courtesy: wyattmuseum.com).

A boat-shaped object thought by many to be the
fossilized remnants of the the vessel sits in Dogubayazit, Turkey, and was first
photographed in 1959 by a Turkish air-force pilot on a NATO mapping mission.

It gained worldwide attention after its photo
was published in a 1960 issue of Life Magazine.

The man most responsible for promoting this
location as the ark’s actual resting place from the Bible was Ron Wyatt, who
died of cancer in 1999 after years of searching for biblical antiquities, who also claimed to have found the remains of Pharaoh’s chariots that chased Moses
through the Red Sea and the “true” location of Mount Sinai in Arabia.

In 2004, Wyatt’s widow, Mary Nell Wyatt Lee,
published a history of the discovery in a book titled, “The Boat-Shaped Object
on Doomsday Mountain.”

She writes that on Dec. 12, 1987, “it was the
official decision of members of [Turkey's] Ministry of Foreign Affairs, of
Internal Affairs, and researchers from Ataturk University, among others, that
the boat-shaped formation did indeed contain the remains of Noah’s Ark!”

An Associated Press story from that month
read:

NASHVILLE, Tenn. — A group of Turkish
researchers has decided that a boat-shaped formation found in 1977 on a hill in
eastern Turkey is the remains of Noah’s Ark, a Turkish tourism official
says.

Mary Nell’s Cornersville, Tenn.-based
foundation, Wyatt Archaeological Research, is filled with on-location photographs and charts promoting its case with
physical evidence including radar scans of bulkheads on the alleged vessel, deck timber and iron rivets and large “drogue” stones, which are thought to have acted as types of
anchors.

However, there’s been no shortage of critics
from both scientific and Christian circles who think the Dogubayazit site is
erroneous.

Lorence Collins, a retired geology professor
from California State University, Northridge, joined the late David Fasold, a
one-time proponent of the Wyatt site, in writing a scientific summary claiming the location is
“bogus.”

“Evidence from microscopic studies and photo
analyses demonstrates that the supposed Ark near Dogubayazit is a completely
natural rock formation,” said the 1996 paper published in the Journal of
Geoscience Education. “It cannot have been Noah’s Ark nor even a man-made model.
It is understandable why early investigators falsely identified it.”

In both the Old and New Testaments, the Bible speaks of Noah and the ark, and
Jesus Christ and the apostles Paul and Peter all make reference to Noah’s flood
as an actual historical event.

According to Genesis, Noah was a righteous man who was instructed by God to
construct a large vessel to hold his family and many species of animals, as a
massive deluge was coming to purify the world which had become corrupt.

Genesis 6:5 states: “And God saw that the wickedness of man
was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
was only evil continually.”

Noah was told by God to take aboard seven pairs of each of the “clean”
animals – that is to say, those permissible to eat – and two each of the
“unclean” variety (Genesis 7:2).

Though the Bible says it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, it also mentions
“the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.”

Genesis 8:4 does not say the ark rested on “Mount Ararat,” but rather the “mountains of Ararat,” and it was still months
before Noah and his family – his wife, his three sons and the sons’ wives – were
able to leave the ark and begin replenishing the world.

Note: Media wishing to interview Joe Kovacs, please contact him.

As always,.....your friend, brother, and servant,.......kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

7th September 2012, 02:09

there were a bunch of threads on it in the old forum, this was a clip of Bob Dean's interview... pardon the French... ;)

Noah's Ark (http://projectavalon.net/forum/showpost.php?p=78143&postcount=23)

kreagle

7th September 2012, 08:25

there were a bunch of threads on it in the old forum, this was a clip of Bob Dean's interview... pardon the French... ;)

Noah's Ark (http://projectavalon.net/forum/showpost.php?p=78143&postcount=23)

Yeah,......that was some pretty 'graphic French', brother! ;)

Nevertheless, thanks for the link!

God Bless!,.......kreagle

CD7

7th September 2012, 22:03

LOL u r quite the character! Youve dissected my post to what you THINK i was expressing...interesting! OK lets play the logical tit for tat game shall we.....

christinedream7,

You need to understand that I, in no way, have taken your words to have disrespected 'me' ! I don't matter,.....only Him,...Jesus Christ! It's the part that's between your 'opening line',......"Oh lordy hell,........................and....................Whew! OK Got tht off my chest hehehehe.",....that is the disrespectful part, my friend. Either you didn't read the OP,...or the link by Kristin,....or the link by Dennis Leahy,.....or perhaps you simply don't understand, or are indifferent.

I believe in your opening post you wanted to discuss 'different' thoughts ideas about the bible...you wanted to discuss it with others, i chose to give MY THOUGHTS on the bible

like i stated earlier..'oh lordy hell' and 'Whew got tht off my chest' and 'hehehhehe' YES are EMOTIONS! (not directed at you or any other poster)....

Oh lordy hell comes from a long history in my past with EXPERIENCES with religion and the church my parents happen to belong to growing up. This church was strict..i dont feel like going into details but suffice to say they proclaimed to be the ONLY church to be saved (part of the 144 million to make it in the end of the world AND the bible was discussed and all scriptures dissected into what they thought would FIT into their ideology and our path to salvation.

Got tht off my chest was exactly that i wanted to express this emotion that is layered in much more of the iceberg then you can see that is my life experiences and observations

The hehehehe was a exhale of RELEASE--not laughing at anyone in particular just the thoughts and memories of it all!

Between your 'opening remark,.............and your hehehehe', you state the following.......
Quote the previous posts that go round and round in their dissection of phrases to the bloody end is what happens with this book! It is words written in a book that appear jumbled up and misplaced. Each scripture sentence word syllable analyzed and interpreted into a tower of babble
I'm simply going to point out that.....

1) This was your 'first post' on this thread,.....(not a good way to begin, my friend!)

It was an honest expression of how i view the bible and if you were honest with yourself and have been studying this book for any amount of time you would agree YES scripture is analyzed and interpreted to mean a MYRIAD of things

2) You express complete disdain for the 'previous posts'......

This is YOUR PERSPECTIVE, i have no disdain for the previous posts

3) ......and systematically categorize it as....'interpreted into a tower of babble'

Why Yes YES it is interpreted in a tower of babble as many come up with 'different' meanings to one sentence, line, word

4) Your 'middle sentence' is the most damaging of all,......"It is words written in a book that appear jumbled up and misplaced." ( Question: Do you really 'feel this way' about God's Word? Don't you understand how 'disrespectful' this is to Him, and His Word?)

LOL really the most damaging? Why Yes the sentences and words DO appear out of place...ive read the bible front and back and as you read you will SEE it all of a sudden changes course mid sentence into another subject, meaning??

5) Finally you end your statement, (mind you, your '1st post here!'),....with a very childish statement, ''Whew! OK Got tht off my chest hehehehe."

Explained above

Now,.....do you still want to 'proclaim your complete innocence', here?

Never said i was innocent Please do not put words into my mouth

Is 'this' your 'standard general approach you use when you don't like something'?

Don't you think you've been a 'little out of line, here?'

No, No i do not

( For 'those who will listen',......"I have a plea from my heart!"......)

christinedream7,.....and 'everyone else',.....

I have a great desire and 'calling from God' to share some 'special things' with 'any and all' who would like to 'enrich and improve' your 'personal walk and relationship with God!' I can't imagine ANYONE turning an opportunity like that down, that's if their heart is honest in God! I've already stated,...back on page 4 of this thread, Post #68,....that 'kreagle doesn't know everything!' If any of you have gotten that impression,.....boy are you wrong! I am still learning,....and will be 'still learning',......all the way to the grave, or the 'rapture of His Church', whichever comes first! Guess what?,.....I am learning from you, too!

I 'implore each and everyone of you',....to be patient, and to allow the 'operation of the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, to continue to work within this 'thread' so that we can 'all achieve the desired results' that I spoke about above. I am sure that there have been things presented, here, that many of you don't completely understand,.....and that's to be expected. I will make a solemn promise to 'everyone' that I will prayerfully endeavor to 'break things down' as much as possible, so that everyone can prosper in this thread!

If a question arises that one doesn't understand,....let's discuss it,...however you may like. It may be conducive for us to discuss it via a PM, etc. I only ask 'everyone',....from this point on to be respectful,...in this order:,...1) To Him, Lord Jesus,.....2) His Word, the Bible,.....3) and finally to 'each other' !!! Anything less, is completely 'out of order' and totally non-Biblical. If we can commit to 'these simple rules',...we will prosper!

We must 'continue in harmony',.....that's the least God expects from you and I!!!

YES lets discuss and not assume what others are thinking...ask before you presume my meanings....and HARMONY IS THE CONNECTION within all instruments if someone is beating to a different drum it adds to the ensemble of the whole. :becky: Now ive said my peace i wont tit for tat anymore

A 'previous post of mine'.....link:http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post546115

kreagle

8th September 2012, 04:14

christinedream7,

Since you've come to this thread you've expressed a great deal of hostility and critical thinking towards religion/Christianity as a whole. With your latest comment I am beginning to see the reason why........

Oh lordy hell comes from a long history in my past with EXPERIENCES with religion and the church my parents happen to belong to growing up. This church was strict..i dont feel like going into details but suffice to say they proclaimed to be the ONLY church to be saved (part of the 144 million to make it in the end of the world AND the bible was discussed and all scriptures dissected into what they thought would FIT into their ideology and our path to salvation.

Got tht off my chest was exactly that i wanted to express this emotion that is layered in much more of the iceberg then you can see that is my life experiences and observations

The hehehehe was a exhale of RELEASE--not laughing at anyone in particular just the thoughts and memories of it all!

What you need to understand, christinedream7, is that holding on to the 'critical views and hostility' that you currently have ingrained into your heart and soul is not going to benefit you in any way,....and will one day completely destroy you if you don't wise up and do something about it. I, obviously, don't know anything about your parents, or your upbringing, but it's certainly clear that you harbor some very deep-seated negative emotional feelings towards them in relationship to religion/church/Christianity.

I'm going to suggest something to you that may appear to be crazy to you on the 'surface' but has huge implications 'down deep inside!'

Have you ever considered,.......'Forgiving your parents?'

I'm sure that this may seem to be the 'furthest thing from your mind' as you originally view this suggestion, my dear friend,.....but let me implore you to take God to task and apply this wonderful concept called,.....'forgiveness!'

If you will really,......think about it,......pray about it,......and then 'totally forgive them from your heart',.....you will find that a huge burden will suddenly be lifted from your soul and you will then be able to move on in a more positive way in your life!

christinedream7, what ever you do, don't allow this awful burden of your past weigh you down for the rest of your life. If you do you will find yourself becoming more, and more cynical, pessimistic, and completely unfulfilled in life.Now, you can be sure that there is a huge crowd of individuals that will listen to your 'current views and stances' and pat you on the back. There certainly is no shortage of people whose views are cynical, pessimistic, and opposed to religion/church/Christianity.

I will tell you, though, that it will take a 'hard hearted' person to be like this,....and something down deep inside tells me that you've really got a 'good and soft heart',.....just waiting to come out and reveal itself! You've gone on to relate your life as the 'proverbial iceberg'. To that I completely agree. So far, on this thread, you've shown us the 'hurt-side' of christinedream7 that is 'sticking out of the water' for us all to see. If you'll take my advice, my dear friend, and follow His advice,.....'to forgive from your heart',......not only will we all begin to see that you have effectively dealt with the 'hurt-side' on the surface of your life,.....but we will all begin to see the 'real you',....that 'majority' which is just below the surface. It's there, dear,.....we just haven't seen it, yet. Only you can really bring it to the surface combined with God's glorious help!

Let God talk to you, my dear, dear, friend,........

Luke 6:36-38
King James Version (KJV)

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Best wishes, and God Bless you,.........kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

8th September 2012, 18:50

I always point people to watch Joel when they think all of Christianity is harsh...

the nice thing about a million churches is there are always others if you don't like the one you are in.

Spirituality is your connection to God, Religion is a gathering of like believers, who are there more for the friendship than the message...

Kristin

8th September 2012, 19:38

kreagle

8th September 2012, 21:09

Hello Kreagle and Christine Dream,

Obviously not everyone has the same belief system. Though I personally have not found any posts to be overtly hostile in any way, it is important that the opinions of others are respected on all levels... Christine has every right to have an opinion that differs from yours Kreagle, as you have every right to have an opinion that differs from hers. Can we agree to disagree? The title of this thread is: Bible Topics and Questions, this suggests that if anyone has a question about a Biblical topic, and wishes to express it then the door is open to do so. Perhaps leaving emotions at the door is best when trying to have a discussion. I'm not sure that this is the intention of this thread, however, it is clear from the OP that this door is open to such an emotional discussion.

The OP states: Let's discuss any "issues you've had" over "TRUST" and what you've been personally exposed to. I think it would really help us all in our "overall race", my friends.

That being said... it is important that it will be understood that not everyone who comes here is looking to be "converted" to Christianity, and that people are allowed to state their "feelings" as well as why they have come to their own conclusions. From the OP it is important to understand that since this conversation was suggested... it should also be allowed. Kreagle, my question to you is that since you have opened this door are you willing to proceed or do you want to change the stated intention of the OP?

Clarity is the best corse here. Kreagle, this is your thread... however, you have given an invitation for such a conversation and that invitation was accepted. Do you wish to continue or would you like to create something different then the OP states? That is also fine, however, clarity and respect for all will allow for things to flow here. Thanks for listening.

From the Heart,
Kristin

Kristin,

Thanks for your timely and thoughtful reply. There is absolutely no reason to alter what has already been started here, in that you are, indeed, correct in your assessment of the OP. I don't know how I could have been any clearer in my intentions for this thread than what I have stated. christinedream7 has indeed been 'on topic' with her response and view on 'TRUST', or the lack of it. However it was only after the latest reply by christinedream7 that I was able to understand her feelings that led her to respond in the way she originally did, and also now.

It is my 'natural response' to be concerned for anyone who is having great difficulty over any issue, as christinedream7 has clearly indicated that she is having. Perhaps if I'm guilty of anything here, is that I did not specify in the OP that not only was this a place for,.....'Bible Topics and Questions',......but that it would also be a place for some 'Answers' to those questions, also. Some of those answers to come perhaps from 'me', as God would direct me,.....and also answers from the many valued Avalon participators, here.

In order to be able to assist anyone you must be able to see if they are even 'listening to begin with',....or otherwise any answers of help you are endeavoring to give them will fall on 'deaf ears!' It was christinedream7's original line in her post that clearly told me she wasn't listening,.......

Oh lordy hell....................................the previous posts that go round and round in their dissection of phrases to the bloody end is what happens with this book!

If christinedream7, whose post there was #91, had not listened or respected any of the 'previous 90 posts' as she said, here, then I was certainly concerned for any 'future posts', likewise.

My only desire is to 'help and assist',....not to 'debate and quarrel'.

My latest response to christinedream7, post #126 above, was from the depths of my heart, and I sincerely hope and pray that she takes it that way. The advice that I gave to her comes from the very 'heart of God',....in the form of 'forgiveness'. This is the very nature and heartbeat of God,...and that's to 'forgive'.

In her own words, christinedream7 compares her past like the 'proverbial iceberg' , to which I completely agree. I am totally convinced that 'just below the surface' where the 'majority' resides, is a very beautiful and caring individual. She just really needs to deal with the 'hurt-side' that is so prevalent above the 'troubled waters of her life, right now!'

Once again, thanks for your help, Kristin!

Sincerely, and God Bless,.......kreagle

*******post updated for special thought********

"christinedream7,.......God loves you, dearly,....and so do I,......and don't you ever forget it, either!"

your brother,......kreagle

Cristian

9th September 2012, 05:52

from http://www.oshoteachings.com/osho-on-tolerance-religious-tolerance/

Question : Osho why can’t i tolerate people who belong to other religions?

Osho : Maria, IT IS BECAUSE OF YOUR UPBRINGING. You have been brought up as a fascist, as a fanatic — as Christians, Hindus, Jainas, Mohammedans; you have not been brought up as human beings. You are hypnotized from your very childhood; you are living in a kind of hypnosis. To live as a Christian or as a Mohammedan is to live in a hypnosis, is not to live really.

That’s why you cannot tolerate people who belong to other religions, because deep down you know they are wrong, they are stupid, they are committing a great crime. They have to be put right, they have to be brought under your flag, into your flock — because only Jesus saves or only Buddha saves. You cannot tolerate them because they look like pretenders.

To a Christian, a Buddhist is a pretender, because God has only one son. It is very strange — why should God have only one son? Is he in favor of birth control? But Jesus is the only-begotten son of God, and the Buddhists claim that Buddha has arrived, that he has attained. It becomes intolerable, the very idea. It creates suspicion in you, it creates doubt. Maybe the Buddhists are right, and you don t want to see this doubt inside yourself, because doubt is heavy and doubt disturbs your peace and doubt disturbs your sleep.

Hence you would not like to read the Buddhist scriptures, you would not like to read the Koran, you would not like to read Mahavira, because their words can be dangerous. Or even if you read them you will read them as ordinary books, because there is only one holy book, the Bible, or only one holy book, the Koran. Your book is the only holy book and all other books are unholy.

There are many things involved in this attitude, Maria. And this is not only your attitude: this is the attitude of the greater masses. It is good that you have become aware of it.

[...]

Secondly: a person belonging to a different religion hurts your ego; you would like your religion to be the suprememost, the only religion. It hurts your ego that there are other religions also claiming the same supremacy

You have a double-bind mind: for yourself you think in one way, for others in a totally different way. If you claim your Bible as the holy book, you don’t allow Mohammedans to claim their book as the holy book. And the Mohammedans don’t allow the Hindus to call their Vedas the holy book. And the people who believe in the Vedas — the Hindus — they laugh at the nonsense of calling the Koran or the Bible holy books. The Vedas is the only holy book — because the Vedas are written by God himself; all other books are written by human beings. Maybe they contain something good, but written by human beings they are bound to be fallible — the Vedas are infallible. This is the way of the ego.

[...]

You apply double standards. For your own religion you have one valuation, for the others, different valuations. You don’t weigh on the same weighing machine. This is the way of the ego; it is always doing it in every dimension of life.

And let me repeat again: each religion creates fascism in you. Each religion creates Adolph Hitlers because of this idea that “My way is the only right way.” And when you are a fascist and when you are a fanatic you are murderous. You may not murder, but deep down you are murderous. You may not murder anybody, but one thing is certain: you will murder your qualities of love and compassion and brotherhood.

I don’t want you to be tolerant of other religions. Mahatma Gandhi used to teach people: “Be tolerant of other religions.” But if you become tolerant of other religions that simply means intolerance persists underground.

I don’t teach tolerance; tolerance is ugly. It is better to be knowingly intolerant; at least the disease is on the surface and sooner or later you will become aware of it — as Maria has become aware of it. If you become tolerant, as Gandhians have become tolerant, then the disease goes deep into the unconscious. On the surface you are very polite, sweet, and you say good things, that the Bible and the Gita, they say the same thing: ALLAH ISHWAR TERE NAM SABKO SANMATI DE BHAGWAN — all are names of the same God, and let God give understanding to all.” You go on saying these things, but deep down it is not so.

Mahatma Gandhi his whole life prayed morning and evening saying that Allah and Ram are the names of the same God. But when he was shot in Delhi…by a Poonaite, remember! Beware of the Poonaites! The man who murdered Gandhi, Nathuram Godse, was a Poonaite; Poona is one of the strongholds of Hindu orthodoxy. I have knowingly chosen a place to create trouble for you!

When Gandhi was shot dead he didn’t say Allah. The last words were “Ram — Hey Ram! Oh Ram!” He forgot all about Allah. His whole life…but still deep down he knows that he is a Hindu. The Gita he says is his mother. And who is his father — the Koran? That he never says anything about. The Gita is his mother but the Koran is not his father. And he chooses words from the Koran which are really nothing but echoes of the Gita, and he also chooses words from the Bible which are echoes from the Gita. He is REALLY clinging to the Gita; the Gita is the criterion. Whatsoever is in the Gita is right; if it is in the Koran, then too it is right because it is in the Gita. He leaves out everything that goes against the Gita. This is tolerance….

I don’t teach tolerance. I teach freedom from all the nonsense of being Hindu, Mohammedan, Christian. Be free from all prejudices. Be just a human being! And in that freedom you will find great joy, and in that freedom. for the first time you will feel love for other human beings, compassion, brotherhood. You will start feeling the whole universe as your family, your commune. And not only with human beings — when the fascist in you has disappeared and the fanatic is gone, even with the trees and the birds and the animals you will have a communion. You will be constantly in a beautiful dialogue with existence.

Maria, drop all this nonsense. To be a Hindu, to be a Mohammedan, to be a Christian, to be a Jaina, to be a Buddhist, these are stupid hangovers from the past. Be finished with them, and in a single blow — not slowly, not gradually. See the point and be finished with them RIGHT now, this very moment! Because who knows? — tomorrow may come, may not come. Who knows? — the next moment may come, may not come. This is the only moment available. Rebel against all nonsense! Be free!

kreagle

9th September 2012, 07:30

Chris82,

A very interesting read you have there, my friend.

I think it would be safe to say that we all have a rather large plethora of 'belief systems' to choose from, don't we?

With this in mind, I'm also reminded of a very somber warning that is given to us all out of Proverbs concerning the 'way we choose',......

Proverbs 14:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

This passage plainly reveals that even with the 'best laid plans of mankind',.....the choice that one makes can easily lead to 'grave consequences' on our 'journey of choice',....doesn't it?

Decisions of this magnitude certainly must be 'Divinely inspired and endorsed', my friend.

I certainly can't begin to speak for all the 'others',....but I can say this much.

God 'robed Himself in flesh',....became the sacrificial Lamb,....and endorsed the Christian faith/belief system with a 'crimson stream of blood!'

That's what I call,......'Divinely inspired and endorsed!!!'

And I have yet to hear of another god/deity who has done that for his followers!

Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

Cristian

9th September 2012, 07:56

I think it would be safe to say that we all have a rather large plethora of 'belief systems' to choose from, don't we?

Or maybe the point made by that wise man was we all have a rather large plethora of 'belief systems' NOT to choose from ...

Question : Osho, Jesus said that his sacrifice on the cross was for the salvation of the world from the sins of man. Please would you comment on this.
Osho : Anand Geetam, THE FIRST THING TO BE UNDERSTOOD about a man like Jesus is that whatsoever the church that is bound to grow around such a man says about him, it is bound to be wrong. What the Christian church says about Christ cannot be true. In fact the Christian priest does not represent Christ at all. He is the same old rabbi in new garments, the same old rabbi who was responsible for Jesus murder. The Pope is not a different kind of person.

It makes no difference whether it is a Jewish establishment or a Christian establishment or a Hindu establishment; all establishments function in the same way.

Jesus is a rebel, just as Buddha is or Lao Tzu is. When the church starts establishing itself it starts destroying the rebelliousness of Jesus, Buddha, because rebellion cannot go with an establishment. It starts imposing its own ideas — once Jesus is gone it is very easy to impose your own ideas. It starts selecting what to keep in the Bible and what not to keep. Many things have been dropped, many things have not been included in it. For example, the Gospel of Thomas has not been included in the New Testament. It was just discovered a few years ago — and it is the MOST important gospel. The four gospels that have been included are nothing compared to it, but it is very rebellious.

[...]

I don’t know Jesus through Christian theology; I know him directly. And my knowing is that he cannot talk in terms of sacrifice — first thing, the very first. A man like Jesus does not talk in terms of sacrifice; it is celebration, not sacrifice. He is going to meet his God dancing, singing. It is not sacrifice; he is not a martyr. The Christian church tries to make him the greatest martyr, the greatest man who has sacrificed himself for the salvation of the world from the sins of man. In the first place it is not sacrifice — sacrifice looks business-like — it is celebration! Jesus is celebrating his life and his death.

Secondly: nobody can solve the problems of others, nobody can be the salvation of the world. And you can see it: the world is still the same. Twenty centuries have passed and Christian priests go on talking nonsense, that he sacrificed himself for the salvation of the world. But where is the salvation of the world? Either he failed, he could not manage… that they cannot accept, that he failed. Then what happened? The world seems to be exactly the same — nothing has changed! Humanity remains in the same misery. But Jesus cannot have said, I have come for the salvation of the world.

But it happens always when a church starts establishing itself that it has to create such ideas, otherwise who is going to listen to the priests? Jesus is salvation — not only that but the ONLY salvation! Just the other night I was looking at a book: JESUS, THE ONLY WAY. Why the only way? Is Buddha not a way? Is Lao Tzu not a way? Is Zarathustra not a way? Is Moses not a way? Is Mohammed not a way? There are infinite ways to reach God. Why make God so poor? — only one way?

But the Christian priest is not interested in God: he is interested in creating a business. He has to claim that Jesus is the ONLY way, that all other ways are wrong. He is in search of customers. That’s why every religion creates fascists and fanatics. EVERY religion claims, My way is the only right way — only through me can you arrive at God. If you go on some other way you are destined for hell, you are doomed.” This is a fascist way of thinking and this creates fanatics. And all religious people are fanatics, and the world has suffered very much from this fanatical approach. It is TIME, ripe time now, to drop all kinds of fascist and fanatical attitudes.

Jesus is a way, but the way has to be walked. The way can go on lying there; it is not going to help you. Just by being there, just by being crucified, Jesus cannot be the salvation of the world — otherwise it would have happened! Then what are we doing now? Then what are the priests doing now? What is the Pope doing now?

http://www.oshoteachings.com/osho-jesus-sacrifie-cross-salvation/

kreagle

10th September 2012, 00:21

Chris82,

The article you have quoted from on both of your posts, here, are the teachings of 'osho'. In reading your posts, it appears that you have 'copied and pasted' his, (osho), comments. Do you have any comments/questions that you wish to ask yourself? The OP states,.....'Bible Topics and Questions', ....so I'm having some difficulty trying to see where your articles fit in, here.

Your friend, brother, and servant,........kreagle

Cristian

10th September 2012, 03:40

kreagle,

I copy/pasted those articles because they represent exactly what I wanted to say. Sometimes it's hard for me to put in english very complex issues.

I admit I also wanted to see how willing are you to get out of your comfort zone and engage in an interesting discussion.

kreagle

10th September 2012, 04:45

Chris82,

I'm always completely open to a 'productive discussion', (for both parties), my dear friend.

I really didn't know how to respond to you earlier, in that there were no actual words from you,.....just these articles.

Feel free to ask and/or discuss as you please, but I must ask you to to abide by the simple guidelines of the OP. I think I have made it clear that this thread is not a place for debate. For example, another Avalon member, Levent Tonga, started a similar thread approximately one week after I began this one, titled,.....'The Noble Qur'an topics and Questions.' Since I personally do not ascribe to his particular belief system, I feel that I would be 'out of place' frequenting his thread and trying to participate in a topic that I am not a believer in. First of all, it would be disrespectful of me, secondly it would more than likely lead to a heated debate by one or both parties, and last, but not least, probably lead to a complete derailment of his thread. Even though I may not believe in his personal 'belief system',......I still respect his desire and right to have his thread and topic, without my interference. I also expect the same, here.

Some people enter into discussions with the ultimate goal of throwing the proverbial 'rock in the hen house' and gleefully 'watching the feathers fly!'

I can assure you that I am not one of those individuals.

You imply that you would like me to 'get out of my comfort zone', in an effort to discuss your views. If the material you have to present here is designed to 'negate His Word or His Divinity' than I must advise you that you won't be comfortable here.

I hope you understand where I am coming from with these statements. The above illustration should fully indicate to you, and everyone else, that I respect others 'rights and belief systems'. It has been suggested by one of our mods, Kristin, that someone could start a thread that would involve 'debate' if that is what they wanted to do. I do not, and will not, participate in any such thread.

your friend, brother, and servant,.......kreagle

Cristian

10th September 2012, 05:03

Cristian

10th September 2012, 05:09

kreagle

10th September 2012, 06:24

kreagle,

From my understanding there is a topic called The Bible where users can share Christian views and interpretations on this issue without any derailment.

on that topic Kristin wrote :

[...]
If it is important to have that DEBATE between the two factions and a DEBATE is agreed to by both sides... then by all means continue... but I suggest that another thread "Bible Debate" would be appropriate, as there are people here who just want to talk about God and Jesus and who really were not looking for a debate in the first place.

Let's try to be understanding enough of others to allow them to have their conversation. I INVITE any of you who wish to DEBATE the Bible as a foundation to do so on another thread. Debate is healthy, eye opening, and can create change of opinion, beliefs, and help the world see itself for what it is; especially when engaged in respectfully.

From the heart,
Kristin

You quote this post of her in your OP here. That is the reason I think me and other users are under the impression that we can debate variuos issues on this topic.
If you only wish to stick to the Bible and Christian dogma why open another thread and not just post on The Bible thread?

Chris82,

You have 'conveniently' only copied and pasted a 'portion of Kristin's advice' in an effort to gain your wishes as you have laid out here for a 'proposed debate'. It's conditions like these where only 'partial statements' are cherry-picked that lead to complete misunderstandings. I can only 'imagine' what it would be like to enter into a debate with anyone who would deploy such deceptive tactics.

Once again, I will supply Kristin's link and her 'entire post' on this matter,.......
Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35019-the-Bible&p=528083&viewfull=1#post528083

Re: the Bible
Hello again, I see two things happening here: First we have those here who are discussing the Bible within the context of the OP: "let the Bible speak to inform and explore what the Book says about our origin history and purpose"

These folks are having a respectful conversation within the context of a belief system. The conversation is about the nuances of the belief system in practice. This could apply the same if it was a conversation about Buddhism, Sufi, or Wiccan beliefs. The participants are here due to a familiarity of the subject matter. Some may be practicing Christians, others may be fringe Bible readers. Regardless, it is about Dogma and religious practice.

Now the second thing that is going on is that the thread is being derailed by those who from the outside do not believe in the entire premiss of the Bible as a foundation. This is absolutely your right to believe... HOWEVER, this is not the intention of this thread. I suggest that a new thread is started which is about the "Question of the Bible" and then those who wish to engage in peaceful conversation about the content are allowed to do so without further derailment.

Understood? People have a right to their own belief systems, and they also have a right to have a conversation about them. People also have a right to think that the Bible as a whole is a pure fantasy and not anything more then clever parables and myth; and they have a right to discuss that as well...

If it is important to have that DEBATE between the two factions and a DEBATE is agreed to by both sides... then by all means continue... but I suggest that another thread "Bible Debate" would be appropriate, as there are people here who just want to talk about God and Jesus and who really were not looking for a debate in the first place.

Let's try to be understanding enough of others to allow them to have their conversation. I INVITE any of you who wish to DEBATE the Bible as a foundation to do so on another thread. Debate is healthy, eye opening, and can create change of opinion, beliefs, and help the world see itself for what it is; especially when engaged in respectfully.

From the heart,
Kristin

Chris82, had you paid more attention to the 'entire thread' of Kristin, you would have easily picked up her suggestion for a 'new thread' possibly being started with her suggested title of,....'Questions of the Bible',....which I opted, instead, for 'Bible Topics and Questions'. I, and the other Avalon posters on this current thread belong squarely in the upper portion of Kristin's post,( the highlighted blue part).

If you, and 'others', wish to have your debate, which is perfectly within your rights to do so, you can either follow Kristin's advice and start 'such a debate thread' of your choosing, or you can resurrect that old thread,....'the Bible' and pick up where they left off. The level of 'debate' there had gotten entirely 'out of hand' and even played a 'partial' role in the 'originator of that OP' to be dismissed from this Avalon forum.

With this, I've stated my full position. For me to opt to 'join you and others' in debate here, would mean that even I would have to be in violation to the very design of this OP set down by me to begin with. I will not go down that pathway, my friend.

I have precisely followed the advise of our moderator, Kristin, as indicated in the 'entirety of her post' above,.....and I ask for you, and others to do likewise.

Peace and Love,......kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

10th September 2012, 07:02

kreagle

10th September 2012, 07:03

If the material you have to present here is designed to 'negate His Word or His Divinity' than I must advise you that you won't be comfortable here.

I'm more interested on what some people turned His Word and His Divinity into. I'm interested in discussing the great evil the church is and has been for generations.

So I'm happy I found this thread where we can debate all this things. ;)

Chris82,

The previous thread you are referring to,.....'the Bible' is located here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35019-the-Bible&p=358629&viewfull=1#post358629

In that thread, I personally had 56 posts, and some of them dealing, (or hinting) towards, the very topic you are referring to here. You'll see towards the latter end of that post, where the originator of the OP was dismissed, where there were certain individuals who adamantly only wanted to debate with their own material and to completely dismiss Biblical texts, etc, as any viable or reliable evidence.

If you wish to 'start a debate thread', or pick up on this one,......by all means go right ahead. I, quite frankly, wouldn't mind 'discussing' the topic/statement you have made here........

I'm more interested on what some people turned His Word and His Divinity into. I'm interested in discussing the great evil the church is and has been for generations.

If you 'search' some of my many posts, etc., you'll begin to get an 'overall' impression of my views on this. However, I will not discuss it, in a debate form, on this particular thread, as I have stated, and for the reasons I've made known, here.

If you should start a 'debate thread' I will perhaps 'view' it, and, deciding upon the civility of it, either decide to contribute to it, or not.

I really mean you well, in all things, and genuinely look forward to having and conducting fruitful discussions with you in the very near future!

Your friend, brother, and servant,.......kreagle

Cristian

10th September 2012, 07:06

You have 'conveniently' only copied and pasted a 'portion of Kristin's advice' in an effort to gain your wishes as you have laid out here for a 'proposed debate'. It's conditions like these where only 'partial statements' are cherry-picked that lead to complete misunderstandings. I can only 'imagine' what it would be like to enter into a debate with anyone who would deploy such deceptive tactics.

kreagle,

I did use the [...] sign which clearly states that i'm only quouting a portion of her post. So much for deception...
I will stop posting my questions here, since you made it clear this is not a debate thread.

You can go back and do the Lord's work. Never ask questions, never contemplate another vision. Never debate. Never nothing.
The devil is waiting for you to make a mistake, so he can have your soul forever. Never believe that aint so. After all it must be pretty hot down there...

Chris

Rocky_Shorz

10th September 2012, 07:09

how many of you have every looked at the Biblical Archaeology thread where we discuss scientific findings that prove what the bible shared is true...

Biblical-Archaeology (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?22804-Biblical-Archaeology)

or the Lord Sid's thread he ran for the nuggets explaining truths of the different religions and how they relate...

kreagle

10th September 2012, 07:51

To 'Everyone',..............

I regret that the last several posts, here, have been dedicated and presented in a 'somewhat uncomfortable' manner. Long before this particular thread came about, I was party to the 'vicious cycle' that was developing on the previous thread,....'the Bible'. At the conclusion of each session spent on this 'past thread' I usually left it feeling 'terrible, depressed, and feeling like I needed to take a bath'. And this was all coming from participating on a topic called,....'the Bible?' (Something is very wrong with this picture, folks!)

Our moderator, Kristin, wisely stepped in, and gave us 'all' a solution to this festering problem,.....and I personally took her advice, along with a variety of PM's to another highly respected Avalon member, and laid the groundwork for this particular thread as you see it now.

I hope everyone here understands. God's Word is too precious and pure to argue and fight over to me. He deserves so much more than that from us!

And to complete my thought process on this, it might even be a 'good idea' for SOMEONE to either start a 'new Bible Debate' thread,....or resurrect the old 'the Bible' thread, again! I just don't want to be that particular, (SOMEONE), for personal reasons.

Your brother, friend, and servant,.........kreagle

********post update********

Can you believe we are now 'arguing' over not being able to,.........'argue?' (Satan is 'slick' isn't he?)

Kristin

10th September 2012, 08:02

kreagle

10th September 2012, 22:17

Kreagle,

Actually, you opened the door to debate yourself... that is why people are coming here to do so. I say ONCE AGAIN and for the last time quoted from my own words,

"That being said... it is important that it will be understood that not everyone who comes here is looking to be "converted" to Christianity, and that people are allowed to state their "feelings" as well as why they have come to their own conclusions. From the OP it is important to understand that since this conversation was suggested... it should also be allowed. Kreagle, my question to you is that since you have opened this door are you willing to proceed or do you want to change the stated intention of the OP?"

You can not have it both ways. Either you do not wish to talk about the legitimacy of the Bible and it's foundation, which fits into "Bible Topics and Questions" and your original OP or you do. I would suggest rewriting the OP to clearly state that intention. As of now, the door is open.

From the Heart,
Kristin

To 'Everyone',.......

At the request of Kristin, I have made the following modification to the OP. This was 'always the intentions' of the OP,....but evidently misunderstood by some. For those who wish to look, again, at the OP, you will see the change, there, in bold 'red' and I've included the same, here, for your convenience.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35019-the-Bible&p=528083#post528083

*******OP UPDATE FOR CLARIFICATION*******

This thread is NOT designed for 'debate purposes'. I intended for viewers to click on Kristin's link above in order for them to see, and understand this,....but many have not. This seems to be a very 'sticky situation' to some. Civil 'discussions',....where opinions may differ and are respectfully expressed, are certainly welcomed here. 'Debates',....never seem to follow the guidelines of 'respectability' and often wind up defined as follows,...."a debate is two teams with Boxing gloves waiting for Jerry Springer to ring the bell...". I cannot think of a better reason than this to exclude 'debates' from this particular thread.

I hope everyone understands the real intent, here, and that we can now move into a more positive direction.

As always,.....your friend, brother, and servant,............kreagle

kreagle

10th September 2012, 22:31

remember everyone, kreagle isn't a Priest, Bishop or Pope, he's one of us and has never seen any of the evils that are talked about on conspiracy forums...

99.9999% of the people in the world haven't it is a beheading offense in some countries, luckily most of us aren't there or we would be viewing the world from our head stuck on a post...

I asked him in the beginning if he believed in ET's and he gave a very direct answer... no, which I respect, but also shared why I believe there are...

that is a discussion...

a debate is two teams with Boxing gloves waiting for Jerry Springer to ring the bell...

PBUK...

you'll need it with this crowd... ;)

Rocky_Shorz,

Brother, I want to profoundly thank you for your, eloquently put, definitions and differences, between 'discussions and debates'.

I asked him in the beginning if he believed in ET's and he gave a very direct answer... no, which I respect, but also shared why I believe there are...

that is a discussion...

a debate is two teams with Boxing gloves waiting for Jerry Springer to ring the bell...

It seems that both you and I, Rocky, have been around the block 'more than one time', my dear friend. You will see that I used your quote to 'modify the OP', in an effort to quell the demand, or request, for debates here.

Thanks again, Rocky_Shorz,..........kreagle

Kristin

10th September 2012, 23:17

kreagle

11th September 2012, 00:42

Kreagle,

Would this statement sum up your thoughts on the thread?

""I would like this thread to be a place where other Christians looking to heal from past traumatic experiences may feel free to express themselves. I am not looking for a debate on the basis of the Bible or the Christian religion as a whole, but rather a place where others of like mind can share in a discussion of Biblical Topics with healing intent."

If not, I would like you to clarify.
Thank you,
Kristin

Kristin,

On the 'surface' your statement seems perfectly harmless and I'm in complete agreement with, other than the two areas that I have highlighted. This would seem to imply that any, and all, 'non-Christian's' who were not 'like minded' would be excluded from this thread,....and that's the 'furthest thing from my mind'. Another valuable Avalon member, Krullenjongen, expressed what my sentiments were also when he said,.......

per Krullengongen (in Post #11), ......

I like this thread because it gives non christians a place to ask questions they have about christianity.

My latest comments, and further comments by Rocky_Shorz, should confirm and distinguish the wide gulf between the terms,.....'discussions......and......debates'.

Discussions where differences are exposed and expressed,.....then in respect to each party, agree to disagree if needed, then move on to better things!

Debates operate generally under a 'system of their own', in that the participators involved won't hesitate to abandon 'rules, regulations, and instructions' in an effort to prove their point. It becomes a literal 'means justify the ends' to them. Whatever they have to use by 'hook or crook' in order to justify, in their minds, what the end results are, is what they will use. Consequently the 'argument' goes on, and on, and on,...with no end in sight! Both sides using 'material/evidence' that the other side does not recognize or accept! Rocky_Shorz could not have summed it up more perfectly than what he did with his candid definition of a 'debate',.......

per Rocky_Shorz,......

a debate is two teams with Boxing gloves waiting for Jerry Springer to ring the bell...

Some people may like 'throwing chairs and pulling hair',....but I can assure you that I don't and I fully understand that God 'expects more out of me than that!'

Kristin, with your earlier 'wise council' you gave us all, here at Avalon, a choice between 'two different paths' to follow along the lines of a 'thread of this magnitude,...the Bible' Consequently, I've chosen to follow your advise and have done 'exactly' that. I have 'prayerfully' constructed the pathway to the 'first half of your suggestion',...( Questions of the Bible). Now I implore 'SOMEONE ELSE' to fulfill the 'second half of your suggestion' to construct that 'other pathway' that you advised,... 'Bible Debate'.

If 'someone' will please do that,....then your 'wise council' will have completely been fulfilled!

And that, to me, seems like a pretty wise thing to do!

With complete respect and love to all!,.........kreagle

kreagle

11th September 2012, 03:29

Praying,....Together!!!

At the conclusion of a football game that I was just 'casually watching' a scene 'identical to this' specifically caught my attention.......

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m50z8ab0Qs1rohtg9.jpg

It also did not 'escape my attention' that just a few moments earlier, these 'two opposing sides' were at each others' throat, banging the 'fool out of each other',...but at the end of the day,...they were civil enough to 'come together and pray!'

Does this mean that they all went to the 'same church' together,....or that they were all of the 'same mind, or belief system?' I suppose that it could be 'possible', but something tells me that this is a very unlikely scenario. No, I'm sure that those different players, scattered throughout that particular 'huddle of prayer', consisted of various 'opposing beliefs, ideas, concepts, dogmas, etc.' In complete fairness, it should be equally noted that not 'all' of the players from the opposing teams were in this particular 'huddle of prayer!' No, there were several players, from both sides, who seemingly went their own 'separate ways',....without any repercussions from those who 'prayed together'.

Is there a 'Divine Message', here, for all humanity to observe and learn?

Perhaps we should learn to 'respect each others huddle of choice?'

You know,...perhaps all that 'banging each other' in this game we call 'football' has a 'real purpose after all!' Maybe the act of 'knocking each other senseless' leads to the realisation that, at the end of the day, there is a genuine need to 'huddle up and pray,...together!'

Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

Kristin

11th September 2012, 13:50

kreagle

11th September 2012, 20:00

Thank you for the clarification. As discussion is on the table please be prepared that not everyone that comes here for a discussion is likely to agree with everything you say, that being said, kudos and good luck on this thread venture!

From the Heart,
Kristin

Kristin,

As I pointed out in my PM to you, I thank you for the beautiful job you have done.

As discussion is on the table please be prepared that not everyone that comes here for a discussion is likely to agree with everything you say

These were 'basically the same words' that Jesus told to His disciples as He dispensed them into the world,......so I've always recognized them to be for me, likewise. The 'key' is, as you put it, to be 'prepared'.

Once again, thank you, my dear friend!

As always,....your friend, brother, and servant,.......kreagle

kreagle

12th September 2012, 08:27

Rocky_Shorz,

remember everyone, kreagle isn't a Priest, Bishop or Pope, he's one of us and has never seen any of the evils that are talked about on conspiracy forums...

99.9999% of the people in the world haven't it is a beheading offense in some countries, luckily most of us aren't there or we would be viewing the world from our head stuck on a post...

One thing is certain, Rocky, is that this place is no place for the 'faint at heart!' If a person is prone to 'blush' they will wind up 'being red all the time' with just a few trips to this forum each day. I'm afraid I've been 'around the block' more times than I'd like to remember and there's not much 'these eyes haven't already seen.'

But, like everything else in life, you can normally find the good in the midst of the bad, if you look hard enough,......or if you approach it the right way,....make a 'good situation out of a bad one'.

Thanks for 'watching my back', brother!,............kreagle

kreagle

12th September 2012, 21:12

Where do 'you' fit in?,...and what do you see?

Some can't get enough of It!
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Admin/BkFill/Default_image_group/2012/5/18/1337378220658/Girl-reading-the-bible-008.jpg

Others like to 'mock It',......
http://www.atheistmemebase.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/031-Follow-every-part-of-the-bible.jpg

Some seem to only see the 'Gore',....
http://www.dustoffthebible.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Cross_stabbing_bible_bloody-2.jpg

And fail to see the 'Beauty!'
http://www.flixya.com/files-photo/h/u/d/hudayazik-2257155.jpg

While 'others' struggle with a choice
http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/164/957/164957296_640.jpg

A few 'take a closer look' at what they've got...and what's this beginning to appear?
http://img.webme.com/pic/e/evdradio/corazon_biblia.jpg

They find 'love between the pages!',......
http://faithwriters.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/bible.jpg

Psalm 119:162
King James Version (KJV)

162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil

Realistically, we 'all' fit in one of 'these categories' somewhere!

Love and Peace,..........kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

13th September 2012, 00:03

kreagle

13th September 2012, 07:52

well remember, this forum is mainly made up of the third group...

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/560377_10151160760827722_849682284_n.jpg

if you understand where the questions are coming from, they become much less hurtful...

Hey Rocky_Shorz,

I'm wondering if the 'third group' you are referring to is in my grouping of the '7 pictures', ( #3 being the ones who see the 'Gore'),...or the 'third group' in your example, ( Atheist Extremists),....or is it perhaps a 'combination of them both?'

Regardless,.....I am convinced there are some 'really good folks' here on our Avalon forums. Some of them might have a 'hard exterior', right now,....some may even be a little 'hard on the inside',....but still good, nevertheless. I go back to a statement I made to you in just a few posts back......

But, like everything else in life, you can normally find the good in the midst of the bad, if you look hard enough,......or if you approach it the right way,....make a 'good situation out of a bad one'.

Wisdom tells me to 'not be hurt, or offended' by the questions being asked, or the statements being made,.........for in reality they come from wayward hearts who have, somewhere along the line, been 'offended or hurt' themselves. They just need a friend, a little love, and brotherhood during this time in their lives.

As always,......your friend, brother, and servant,........kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

13th September 2012, 17:25

Mark (Star Mariner)

13th September 2012, 18:22

kreagle

13th September 2012, 21:21

Hi kreagle, much love and friendship to you brother, I sincerely mean that.

Just wanted to say Greetings!

I would be very happy to participate in your Bible discussions, for I love and enjoy any form of philosophy, theology, theosophy, and so forth, for I believe knowledge of any kind, particularly ideas at variance with our own, offers up a contemplative lesson, even if we feel it is incorrect and merely reaffirms what we already know.

For the record I am not a Christian, though I was raised one. I simply found ‘God’ in my own way. And know that I would never hijack this thread, or skew it off into a tangent away from Biblical or Christian themes, for this is your topic... I am looking only to engage, interact with those who have a different outlook. Knowledge given and knowledge likewise received is how we find wisdom.

For my own part, simply this: I know that the way to inner spiritual truth is simply to know thyself, and to go forth in life with love; to give it freely to all who would receive it, or shun it, and to proceed with humility, compassion and patience… details (denomination) does not matter.

Star Mariner,

Welcome aboard!,.....just pull up a chair and make yourself at home, my friend! It's great to see that you're open-minded and are leaving room in your life for 'more spiritual growth!' Too many today, (without realizing it), have allowed themselves to reach a pinnacle in their own individual lives by adopting the view that they have 'fully arrived' in their quest of learning/wisdom. Consequently they 'turn off' or reject new ideas, or concepts, before they fully investigate them. This is very tragic, in that this never allows any, or very few, 'seeds of truth' to germinate in their lives and to come to fruition.

Let me make one 'small point,.....again' about this comment you made,....

And know that I would never hijack this thread, or skew it off into a tangent away from Biblical or Christian themes, for this is your topic...

As I've said at the onset of this thread,.....this is NOT my topic/thread,.....it's OURS!,....it's YOURS, too, Star Mariner. That's what I wanted to make 'unique' about this thread. I fully understand the premise behind what you're saying in your comment, and fully thank you for your respect of the thread, don't get me wrong, friend, this is a place for 'all of us!'

So,.....pull up a chair, friend,.....you're at 'home!'

Your friend, brother, and servant,........kreagle

kreagle

14th September 2012, 06:22

you know there is a lot of interest in what you are sharing this thread activity has kept it in the top 10 of Avalon...

I've noticed the gifted have really hard times in the days leading up to the full moon which we are in now, what does the Bible say about in the end psychics, mediums and teachers etc will appear on the earth?

there is one verse that had a positive outlook for all these gathered with Big hearts that have been shunned by the church, who listened to the wrong message...

Rocky_Shorz,

Throughout the Bible it has been made clear that God has been opposed to psychics, mediums and teachers, ( of this sort). You are not going to find that in one 'period of time' that He was adamantly against them, teaching His children to stay away from such, and then in 'another period of time', (either now or in the future), suddenly reversing His earlier position and now accepting them.

I'm going to provide a link that expounds, clearly, God's thoughts and directions for His people as indicated by this Scripture in Leviticus 19:31. This particular link provides 'several Biblical versions' interpretation on this passage in Leviticus.

Leviticus 19:31 link: http://bible.cc/leviticus/19-31.htm

However, I do think I know what you are referring to,....and it is found in this particular passage from the Book of Luke. (note: If I am wrong in what you are referring to, Rocky, please tell me.)

Luke 9:49-50 (KJV)

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

In this above passage, John and the rest of the disciples had basically 'rejected this individual and his works' because he was not, as they saw it, a 'follower of Jesus' as they had been taught and instructed by Him. They fully recognized that this individual was lacking in the 'full revelation' of the Gospel Message that they were to teach later, beginning on the Day of Pentecost, (when the 'church' was originally born into existence), and also were to teach later everywhere they went. I'm sure they were quite amazed when Jesus candidly told them to 'not stop' him,....as He explained to his disciples that this individual was 'not working against them' but was actually working 'in their favor!',.....and for the 'furtherance of God's Will!'

I think it's important to know, here, that Jesus, will indeed, 'honor the deployment of His name' in doing the Will and the work of God as he sees fit with the occasion. This individual, (though he may be 'lacking in complete Gospel understanding'), was well meaning in his efforts to 'cast the devil out of some wayward soul', and guess what?,....the Lord honored the deployment of His name, and the devils, indeed, came out when the name of Jesus was invoked!

A point of great confusion can easily arrive here, (especially in the mindset of this particular individual who is successfully 'casting out devils', etc. in Jesus' name). The confusion being where the mindset says,....."I must be completely O.K. with God, in that I am able to do these great things for His Glory,....right?"

However, as we go deeper into the Word of God, we find that the 'opposite of this' is actually applicable.

Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV)

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It's here, in God's Holy Word, that reveals to us all the 'personal responsibility' that we all have, and that's to 'fully embrace' His Word and It's teachings. It would be a 'tragic mistake' to think that our 'personal works or endeavors', (no matter how noble they might be), would enable any of us to reach a point of being 'exempt' from having our own personal 'Upper Room experience', like the rest of the disciples had also, and noted in Acts chapter two.

This is why Jesus so plainly made this statement to Nicodemus, in John chapter three.

John 3:1-7 (KJV)

3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

there is one verse that had a positive outlook for all these gathered with Big hearts that have been shunned by the church, who listened to the wrong message...

I certainly agree that it is a 'very positive thing' that God would use someone for His Glory who might not necessarily be 'everything, that they should be,....just yet!' And on an 'even greater positive note', we find that His 'mercy and grace' still beckons us 'all' to follow the stairway to our own 'personal Upper Room experience, too!'

As always,.....your friend, brother, and servant,.......kreagle

modwiz

14th September 2012, 07:18

I miss Redezra.

kreagle

14th September 2012, 10:56

Hey modwiz,

Good to see you 'poking your head in the door', brother! You've always seemed to add a great deal of insight in many topics that I've seen, so I hope that you'll try to make yourself 'more available here' as much as you can!

God bless you, brother!,............kreagle

Mark (Star Mariner)

14th September 2012, 14:19

[quote]As I've said at the onset of this thread,.....this is NOT my topic/thread,.....it's OURS!,....it's YOURS, too,
Hehe, thanks for that. Just wanted assure you nonetheless that I wasn;t going to be wandering too far from the thread subject matter, that's all :)

Too many today, (without realizing it), have allowed themselves to reach a pinnacle in their own individual lives by adopting the view that they have 'fully arrived' in their quest of learning/wisdom. Consequently they 'turn off' or reject new ideas, or concepts, before they fully investigate them. This is very tragic, in that this never allows any, or very few, 'seeds of truth' to germinate in their lives and to come to fruition.

Couldn't agree more, my friend, and couldn't have said it better. There is a trap contained in any Spiritual knowledge that is conveyed to us lowly Earth Beings. It is this: sometimes one may become so impressed with the revelation, the material, that we plateau in our understanding and are blinded to all else.

In truth, the pursuit of wisdom never ends.

I have studied many, many philosophies and religions (not on a professional level however), and in my opinion they all possess wisdom and virtue, some more than others of course.

My view of Christianity – all religion (and I have no intention whatsoever in criticizing or attacking, this is just statement of my personal belief...) is that religious doctrine whether it was written onto the page by God or not, is and always has been controlled by Man nonetheless. Man is a distorting creature, one shaped, predisposed to distortion – ego – which invariably directs his actions.

Man is far from a pure Being. If he were, Jesus would not have needed to walk here. Man contaminates all that he touches. Thus, what we have with the Bible, particularly now after 2,000 long years, is in my opinion a diluted account – or at the very least an account which contains enough semantic variation to manoeuvre one’s thought into a distorted interpretation.

That is merely how I view the nature of orthodoxy/canon. It must be noted that letters, words language is a highly delicate tool, a simple word here or there changing the entire context. There are multiple versions of the Biblical text, laid down by multiple individuals, decreed and re-ordered by multiple Ecumenical Councils – politicized, culturalized… diluted.

At the end of the day, my friends, all the incontinuities between the Old Testament God and the New is, personally speaking, of no concern to my thought process. Who begat who isn’t of interest. Whether the formation on Mount Ararat is really Noah’s Ark or petrified wood is irrelevant. Minutia does not really matter to me.

Details Do Not Matter.

All that does matter is the teachings of the Spiritual Masters, in the Christian world or outside of it. All that matters to me in the Bible is the example of Jesus and the life that he led: the purity of the wisdom; in love, sacrifice, and forgiveness... If only the Bishops, Popes, Priests, Holy Men, and the Fundamentalists, had over the last 2,000 years invested their time wholly on that which was given, rather than distorting, contesting, politicizing, and branching this way and that with their various creeds and denominations, then what of division, persecution, schism and war would we have seen over the years?

Too much evil has been done over the years by way of Human Distortion, and in the name of what details one believes against another. Concentrating only on the parables and teachings of Jesus, and the example that he led with his life, no ‘interpretation’ is necessary, and distortion cannot get a foothold.

I would not presume to declare what Jesus would say or what Jesus would believe, but I do very much suspect that he would agree that the finer details not really matter, not when you boil it down to the elemental truth in the teachings: that all that matters is to love all, to treat thy neighbour as you would have your neighbour treat you – this, and far more besides that reminds us how to live our lives when we remember that the spirit of God is within us.

All the best,

kreagle

14th September 2012, 20:31

Star Mariner,

Wonderfully put and thought provoking, my dear friend and brother. We've all got a long way to go in order to achieve the ultimate goal that Jesus would like for us to achieve. I'm very grateful for His extension of Mercy and Grace to us all. Once again, thanks for your valuable input, my friend!

Your friend, brother, and servant,......kreagle

kreagle

16th September 2012, 09:02

What's 'really behind the curtain?'

http://www.themoneymasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/toto-exposes-oz1.jpg

Perhaps one of the most quoted phrases, (especially used in the political arena), comes from the movie classic,.....The Wizard of Oz,....and that phrase simply states,...."pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

It's not particularly hard to figure out, (even in the young mind's that are watching), why Dorothy, Lion, Tin Man, and the Scarecrow are instructed to 'pay no attention' to this man behind the curtain. What's perceived to be the 'Wizard of Oz' turns out to be, not only an 'ordinary man',....but in reality a 'deceiver',....a 'humbug',....with no special powers, whatsoever. He keeps his 'subjects' spell-bound with his many deceptive 'bells, whistles, and controls' which he deploys behind the cloak of the curtain. Once again, man's best friend, (a 'dog' named Toto),....is instrumental in 'revealing the truth' by pulling the curtain open and revealing the deception.

Over the course of time, I have been amazed at the multitude of 'movie moments, etc.',.....where concepts are 'thrown out there' for us to muse over that have 'subtle subliminal messages' interwoven within them. More often than not, these 'underlying messages' are God-orientated, whether we fully realize it, or not. Furthermore, these 'God-orientated' messages from our 'Hollywood friends', (term loosely used), generally are designed to 'bring out the negatives' in relationship to God,.....certainly not to highlight any positives. Such is the case, in my opinion, regarding this 'Hollywood classical quote',...."pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

From a Biblical standpoint, I ask you to simply consider the following,.......

In the days of the Old Testament, the 'blueprint of God' called for a Tabernacle, (portable to begin with,....and then stationary later), where God, Himself, would dwell among His people, Israel. And it was in this Tabernacle that God had a 'specific place' where He would dwell, and that was in the Ark of the Covenant, above the Mercy Seat,.....which was 'specifically placed behind the curtain', (or vail), separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies! It was there that God chose to operate, through Moses and Aaron, the High Priest.

(note: I've supplied 'four different versions' on Exodus 26:31 for your convenience.....)

New International Version (©1984)
"Make a curtain of blue, purple and scarlet yarn and finely twisted linen, with cherubim worked into it by a skilled craftsman.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"For the inside of the Tabernacle, make a special curtain of finely woven linen. Decorate it with blue, purple, and scarlet thread and with skillfully embroidered cherubim.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“And you shall make a veil of blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen. It shall be made with cherubim skillfully worked into it.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:

In the days of the New Testament, once again, the 'blueprint of God' called for another Tabernacle, where God, Himself, would again dwell among His people,.... as He trained disciples and carried out His ultimate plan at Calvary. And as the following 'four passages' clearly point out, He was, once again, behind another curtain,...this time, one made of 'flesh!'

(note: these 'four versions' highlight the passage from Hebrews 10:20 for your convenience,.....)

New International Version (©1984)
by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

New Living Translation (©2007)
By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.

English Standard Version (©2001)
by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

In both of my examples of,....the Old Testament,....and.....the New Testament, above, we clearly see God dwelling and operating in His full capacity,....behind the curtain! A 'curtain made by mankind' in the Old Testament,......and a 'curtain made out of mankind' in the New Testament!

Very many, today, do not 'see', (understand), this,....and they have also fallen into a 'vicious trap!' Whether it is the 'voice of Hollywood', or not, the same prevalent statement is being echoed throughout the world, in an even more deadlier version,....."pay no attention to that God behind the curtain!"

Not only is this 'same quote' being broad-casted world-wide, but 'it's message' is more deadlier than ever.

'The message' being,.......your 'God behind the curtain'

......doesn't have the power/abilities you claim that He does......

......He keeps you, (His 'subjects',...or sheeple), spellbound with His endless religious 'bells, whistles, and mind-control'.....

......He's nothing more than a 'deceiver!'

......He's nothing more than a 'bad God',.....a 'humbug!'

And the saddest thing behind 'all of this',....is that many, today, are 'listening and agreeing with this message.'

So consequently,......they 'pay absolutely no attention to the God behind the curtain!'

What's 'really behind the curtain?'

Where in the world is 'Toto' when you really need him?

Your brother, friend, and servant,......kreagle

Mark (Star Mariner)

16th September 2012, 13:40

Very interesting interpretation there kreagle. To be honest I've noted a number of Hollywood allegories where the character's goal in the story is to find that curtain, pull it back to expose who's hiding behind it. The Michael Douglas movie 'The Game', is a good example of that, also the the 'X'-Files, and the awesome series 'Lost'. All are about penetrating the hidden veil, not ignoring it, but plumbing the mysterious depths of deception, misdirection, and beholding what is truly there controlling their lives...

Perhaps there is another type of curtain, perhaps one more metaphorically germane than the tabernacle curtain, and that is the hidden powers that be who control this world - the controlling elite, the secret societies, the mega-corporations... They are truly the deceivers, the humbugs, and they do not want anyone paying attention to that - it is they who want to keep on hiding (and steering us away from this curtain protecting them).

For me, if there is any illusion at all it is that there is no curtain that separates us from God, the Great Spirit, Allah, the Source, whatever you wish to call him/her/it. So the message we should all take here is not 'pay no attention to what is behind the curtain', rather 'pay no attention to curtain itself'! It isn't really there.

kreagle

16th September 2012, 15:03

Star Mariner,

For me, if there is any illusion at all it is that there is no curtain that separates us from God, the Great Spirit, Allah, the Source, whatever you wish to call him/her/it. So the message we should all take here is not 'pay no attention to what is behind the curtain', rather 'pay no attention to curtain itself'! It isn't really there.

In an effort to provoke further thought on this, I deliberately did not bring out what you are actually alluding to, here. Indeed, Star Mariner,...you are totally correct, my friend! With the conclusion of Jesus' crucifixion at Calvary, we see that the 'elimination of this curtain' was forefront on our Master's mind!

Mark 15:37-39 (KJV)

37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Miraculously, by the Hand of God, we see that the 'curtain was eliminated, or moved out of the way' the very moment of Jesus' death on the Cross. No longer would it be necessary for mankind to have to go through a high priest in order to access God,.....he could now do it himself! Calvary, indeed, accomplished so much more than we can every imagine, through the intricate planning of our thoughtful God!

Now, if we can only get mankind to 'pay attention!'

God bless all!,.....your brother, friend, and servant,..........kreagle

kreagle

18th September 2012, 03:00

Star Mariner,

As I read your post, once again, you actually bring up another great point for consideration.

Perhaps there is another type of curtain, perhaps one more metaphorically germane than the tabernacle curtain, and that is the hidden powers that be who control this world - the controlling elite, the secret societies, the mega-corporations... They are truly the deceivers, the humbugs, and they do not want anyone paying attention to that - it is they who want to keep on hiding (and steering us away from this curtain protecting them).

I completely concur with your statement here, brother! Of course, this ruse they have employed was always with the intentions of 'setting themselves up on the Throne' of our lives. Others have attempted this in the past, ( see 'Lucifer',...Isaiah 14:11-15), and they will ultimately wind up in the 'same place' as Lucifer has, also.

In the 'Wizard of Oz' example, above, we find that a ( d o g ) pulls this curtain back for revelation. Some may think that this is 'just a play on words', but I don't think it is strange at all that, in reality, it will take ( G O D) to pull back this 'curtain' that I alluded to, earlier. He specifically did 'just that' at Calvary, when 'the vail of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottom'. He is still, to this very day, attempting to do the 'very same thing' in the hearts of those who will truly observe. Closer observation of the Scriptures reveal a saturation of 'this type of evidence'.

With the disciple, Philip,......Jesus was attempting to 'pull back the curtain', ( his flesh), and expose His True Self to them.

John 14:9 (KJV)

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

With the disciple, Thomas,......it appears that after he 'originally doubted',....a subsequent 'hands on experience' completely 'pulled the curtain away', in Thomas' mind and heart!

John 20:24-29 (KJV)

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Yes, my dear friend Star Mariner, the 'curtain has come down' for all to see,....but unfortunately not all have seen, as of yet. It takes time,...sometimes 'hard times',.....before many will see what is 'really going on'. But make no mistake, the time will fully come when 'all will see' that our ( G O D ), has indeed, pulled back the curtain. Mankind will then clearly see the 'humbugs' who have attempted to rule over us in their desperate attempt to scale the 'Throne' of our lives,.....and THEN for all to fully recognize who was on the 'Throne all alone to begin with!'

Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

Mark (Star Mariner)

18th September 2012, 14:18

kreagle

19th September 2012, 02:28

Yes I do absolutely resonate with this interpretation my friend.. In regards to the 'humbugs', I do think that at least one corner of this curtain has indeed already begun to flap a little, and what lies beyond is beginning to emerge. But I differ slightly in that it will not be 'God' who will play any direct part in pulling that curtain aside for Mankind, rather free human will - whether a person wishes to take a peek or not, and in taking a peek whether to heed what was shown, or not.

The 'truth will set you free'... But only when an individual is ready to be set free. Unfortunately there are so many still addicted to darkness, or at least the safe, comfortable ignorance of their vacuous lives. But 'the light' of truth, of love, of God, is infinite and it is changeless. It's there, always, just waiting for each of us to turn towards it, and let the truth flood in.

All the best mate,

Hey Star Mariner,

Just wanted you to know that I really, really appreciate your approach and demeanor with your responses, here. You have been 'true to form' in what you originally stated, and I fully understand and respect your stance in regards to the 'issue on God'. If I come off as being a little on the 'over zealous side' sometimes, I ask you to please forgive me. No one can really fully understand, or appreciate, what I am really attempting to relay unless they have 'walked in my shoes', my dear friend.

Our 'growing dialogue' is very productive, in my opinion, and I'm looking forward to much more enriching moments for you, I, and the rest of our dear Avalon friends.

As always,.......your friend, brother, and servant,..........kreagle

kreagle

20th September 2012, 10:40

Dawning of a New Day....Revelation for Mankind

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lduonlcL5j1qcxxkt.jpg

Through the wisdom of God's Word, we have been advised to 'properly equip ourselves' against the onslaught that we would, and have, encountered from the 'rulers of the darkness of this world'........

Ephesians 6:11-13 (KJV)

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

It certainly should not take a genius to figure out that 'darkness', and the forces thereof, have ruled over mankind for as long as history has been recorded.

But,.....that's all about to change! A 'new day is dawning',....a 'day of revelation' is beginning to come up on the horizon for you and I!

It's in this 'light of revelation' that we are now beginning to see the 'true wickedness of man' and what many 'select groups' have done in their secret chambers over the course of our lives, and the lives of our forefathers, as well. Yes, this particular knowledge has been realized by a 'select few' for some time,.....but as this 'Divine light of revelation' becomes brighter and brighter we are now finding that it is becoming obvious to 'all' men, likewise.

It should be, equally, pointed out that this 'Divine light of revelation' is not going to be concentrated in just 'one area only!' As with from the 'Source in which it came', it likewise, will be 'no respecter'. This 'light', will indeed, seek out all of the 'hidden crevices of our lives' as it 'shines in all directions'.

John 1:5 (KJV)

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not

It will be an 'eye opening event',.....if,......we will only 'open our eyes!'

Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

Mark (Star Mariner)

21st September 2012, 14:38

I ask you to please forgive me. No one can really fully understand, or appreciate, what I am really attempting to relay unless they have 'walked in my shoes', my dear friend.

I thank you for having me here kreagle! But there is nothing to forgive! I see only enthusiasm, and that's to be celebrated – for you have the love and light of God in your heart, and that breeds such a strong desire to spread it around to your fellow beings. It is much appreciated!

Zealousness, however, is a different thing entirely, and that is not you! Zealousness is bred by negativity, by those who prefer to spread words of fear, of warning, and thou shalt not!; and that matters/forces which they can’t explain must be ‘the Devil’s work’, rather than being simply the greater mystery of God. But that is not the way, and you and I know it well :)

The 'Divine Light of Revelation' of which you speak has never been absent, but now it shines with ever greater intensity. I do agree that a time of great change is upon us all. The time is truly now to stand up and walk with the Light. A new realm beckons where The darkness will be stripped away...

Yet those who have fed off the dark and grown fat from it, have a chance yet to withstand in the evil day, and stand. But time grows short. Some will, I feel, and some will not. Those who spurn the opportunity for redemption will recede like a shadow against the approaching noonday sun, and be left behind. For the rest of us the wonders of a brand new world await...

Krullenjongen

21st September 2012, 17:41

Mark (Star Mariner)

21st September 2012, 18:38

I think I understand what you’re saying, and if so you have underlined this concept: that a collection of Bibles at variance in their composition/translation will nonetheless contain the same general messages, with an emphasis on the revelation that the finer details therein which divide them (generated by politics or the ego-distortion of Man) are not what’s important.

Yet so many miss the point, and cling on to these themes, establishing cults and subdivisions of faith which serves only to divide people yet further, resulting in bias, bigotry, even war. It’s been happening for centuries.

The only important message to understand, whether you’re reading the Bible, the Koran, the Vedas, the Vinaya Piṭak, or any religious, philosophical or spiritual text, is when you boil away all the outer material, the knowledge, the wisdom, all the specifics, eminently important though all that may be, what you are left with is hope, humility, compassion, and pure, pure love.

kreagle

21st September 2012, 21:29

Star Mariner,

Once again, you've outdone yourself with your heartfelt words of kindness. You really do have a 'keenness' about you, brother,....as illustrated with your following quote........

The 'Divine Light of Revelation' of which you speak has never been absent, but now it shines with ever greater intensity. I do agree that a time of great change is upon us all. The time is truly now to stand up and walk with the Light. A new realm beckons where The darkness will be stripped away...

Yet those who have fed off the dark and grown fat from it, have a chance yet to withstand in the evil day, and stand. But time grows short. Some will, I feel, and some will not. Those who spurn the opportunity for redemption will recede like a shadow against the approaching noonday sun, and be left behind. For the rest of us the wonders of a brand new world await...

Brother, those 'poetic words',......"have a chance",.....literally made the 'Spirit of God within me', to leap for joy,.....for as long as 'repentance is available to us',.....we 'all' still,......have a chance!!!

What a message of love,....mercy,.....and grace,.....our Lord extends to us 'all!' In the face of our 'many dark deeds',.....He still finds a way to love us,.......and give us a chance!

Star Mariner, your 'final comment', quite frankly, borders on 'genius',........

Those who spurn the opportunity for redemption will recede like a shadow against the approaching noonday sun, and be left behind. For the rest of us the wonders of a brand new world await...

Isn't it amazing how 'one man's poetic words of future promise',.....when applied in reverse,....become 'another man's condemnation of exclusion?' Especially, when we 'all' have access to the 'same doorway?'

Revelation 3:19-21(KJV)

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Be sure, my dear brother, to 'listen to yourself!'

Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

kreagle

22nd September 2012, 06:11

My view of Christianity – all religion (and I have no intention whatsoever in criticizing or attacking, this is just statement of my personal belief...) is that religious doctrine whether it was written onto the page by God or not, is and always has been controlled by Man nonetheless. Man is a distorting creature, one shaped, predisposed to distortion – ego – which invariably directs his actions.

Man is far from a pure Being. If he were, Jesus would not have needed to walk here. Man contaminates all that he touches. Thus, what we have with the Bible, particularly now after 2,000 long years, is in my opinion a diluted account – or at the very least an account which contains enough semantic variation to manoeuvre one’s thought into a distorted interpretation.

That is merely how I view the nature of orthodoxy/canon. It must be noted that letters, words language is a highly delicate tool, a simple word here or there changing the entire context. There are multiple versions of the Biblical text, laid down by multiple individuals, decreed and re-ordered by multiple Ecumenical Councils – politicized, culturalized… diluted.

At the end of the day, my friends, all the incontinuities between the Old Testament God and the New is, personally speaking, of no concern to my thought process. Who begat who isn’t of interest. Whether the formation on Mount Ararat is really Noah’s Ark or petrified wood is irrelevant. Minutia does not really matter to me.

Details Do Not Matter.

That is an interesting point you make there.
I think that in some cases details can be important and especially when you dig into certain subjects but in general i agree with you.
Now let's take christianity for a subject and apply your train of thought.
If i take ten or even fifty different bibles from the year 300 AD to our time and say what the details are not that important. I will look at the general story and message in these bibles you will find that the basic story and message is the same.
Would that make you more inclined to take that message serious?

Star Mariner and Krullenjongen,

Greetings, my brothers, and God richly bless you both!

The 'dilemma' you speak of, Star Mariner, is 'no dilemma at all' if you look at this from a 'proper perspective' and from the angle that God intended for 'all of mankind' to view it from, originally. Krullenjongen is certainly correct, and on track, with his statement, (highlighted in blue). Additionally I will point out the the 'entire problem' begins when mankind 'strays from the overall Biblical concept' of,.........'one Lord, one faith, one baptism'.

Precisely, the Bible records it 'this way',.......

Ephesians 4:4-6 (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Because of this, it's important to know that the 'basic fundamental truth' of 'One Lord' is what our God built a nation, (Israel), with and then consequently chiseled in stone, (the Ten Commandments), that 'same fundamental truth' of 'one Lord God, and one only!' ( Deuteronomy 6:3-15 and Exodus 20:1-18 )

Israel realized, first-hand,.... the value and benefits that would be 'heaped upon them' whenever they held 'this concept and realization of one God' close to their heart and served Him, and Him, only. They also learned, the hard way, what would happen to them whenever they 'strayed from this heavenly mandate'.

The 'New Testament Church',...( just like the 'nation' of Israel),..realized the 'same identical thing' when It was 'born into existence' on the Day of Pentecost and recorded in the Book of Acts, chapters one and two. The 'church', which we can all belong to today, by virtue of It's 'born again experience', has become 'an holy nation' to God, and not just a 'nation' like Israel is.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV)

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

As such,....we the 'church', will equally be required to recognize, and serve, one Lord God, and Him, only! Blessings still flow abundantly for those who embrace and practise the 'belief and servitude' to one God, and Him only,......and 'others', I'm afraid, still have to 'learn the hard way'.

(conclusion)

Something that was always intended to be 'easy' has become very distorted and complex in the minds, hearts, and souls of many, entirely too many, individuals. Consequently they are faced with 'learning the hard way!' When one sits back and ponders the 'vast amount of doctrines, concepts, Biblical versions, etc.', it can leave a person in complete bewilderment, if your not careful and wise to what's going on. Quite simply,...God, at no time,...has ever become divided into 'more than one Deity! He has never become a 'plurality of Persons', as the 'doctrine of the trinity' will attempt to teach you. He was 'One to Israel',.....ALWAYS!,......and He is 'still One to the Church', today!

Malachi 3:6 (KJV)

6 For I am the Lord, I change not;........

Yes, indeed, He 'still hasn't changed!',......

He is 'still',........'one Lord',......with 'one faith, and one baptism'......

And that's 'exactly what His Apostles taught to the 'infant church',...beginning in Acts chapter two, verse thirty-seven by the Apostle Peter. Each subsequent church would be, equally, taught 'this same message' by these 'same Apostles', who 'never deviated in this message' of......one Lord,....one faith,....one baptism!

I have 'expounded on this before' on a thread, by Beren, titled......What does it mean-BE Christian, and I will supply the link for your viewing,( please read posts #83 and #84 which are back-to-back),.......

Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48101-What-does-it-mean-BE-Christian&p=546613&viewfull=1#post546613

Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

Rocky_Shorz

22nd September 2012, 06:28

I was down by the beach today and heard of a Blue whale sighting from the shore...

page 777 is Jonah and the whale...

I hopped in my car and drove inland... ;)

kreagle

22nd September 2012, 07:34

I was down by the beach today and heard of a Blue whale sighting from the shore...

page 777 is Jonah and the whale...

I hopped in my car and drove inland... ;)

Ha!, Ha!, Ha!, Ha!,......hey, you weren't' close to Nineveh, were you?

Good to see you, brother!,.............kreagle

Krullenjongen

22nd September 2012, 12:40

The only important message to understand, whether you’re reading the Bible, the Koran, the Vedas, the Vinaya Piṭak, or any religious, philosophical or spiritual text, is when you boil away all the outer material, the knowledge, the wisdom, all the specifics, eminently important though all that may be, what you are left with is hope, humility, compassion, and pure, pure love.

I agree with you that you can find wisdom, insight and good messages in other text ( i read a few of them myself) We christians call the attributes like you name them the "fruit of the Holy Spirit"
The Fruit of the Holy Spirit is a biblical term that sums up the nine visible attributes of a true Christian life of which you named a few.

Gal 5:22-23 (KJV)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

That is all great and a very worthy goal to strive for but i believe to fully express these attributes i need Gods help and a change of heart.

I wanted to ask you a question Star Mariner.
You say you have read different sacret texts. Then you must have seen that the christian faith is different in one way than all the other faiths. That is that we believe that every human being is a sinner and needs to repent and be forgiven before he can enter heaven. Jesus says that no man can come to the Father than by him. Most if not all other faiths say that you can better yourself and by that be worthy to enter heaven.
In other words they follow a path of self "enlightenment" and rely on self growth end good deeds to get to heaven. a christian strives for growth and the fruit of the spirit but relies on faith is Jesus Christ to get to heaven, This is very different.
What do you think about these differences?

Mark (Star Mariner)

22nd September 2012, 16:30

I wanted to ask you a question Star Mariner.
You say you have read different sacret texts. Then you must have seen that the christian faith is different in one way than all the other faiths. That is that we believe that every human being is a sinner and needs to repent and be forgiven before he can enter heaven. Jesus says that no man can come to the Father than by him. Most if not all other faiths say that you can better yourself and by that be worthy to enter heaven.
In other words they follow a path of self "enlightenment" and rely on self growth end good deeds to get to heaven. a christian strives for growth and the fruit of the spirit but relies on faith is Jesus Christ to get to heaven, This is very different.
What do you think about these differences?

Thank you for the question Krullenjongen, and it's a good one. In fact a very good one. I could go into great detail in describing my own personal beliefs, relating to any question you have in accordance with my level of understanding at this time, but I have asserted that I would not stray from the mission brief of this thread with 'my own stuff', so I'll try not to go too overboard.

Firstly, and at the risk of sounding pretentious in quoting myself, I would underline my answer by again stating: 'in accordance with my level of understanding at this time'. If God is infinite, and God is Wisdom and Knowledge and Love etc, then Wisdom, Knowledge and Love is infinite also. And the pursuit of them is infinite. They do not, in my belief, end with the Holy Bible, or any text or philosophy on Earth. They merely begin here. Thus whatever I think and whatever I believe is only a reflection of an ever-changing, ever-evolving exposition in how I perceive truth, spirituality, and the Universe.

I may see, experience, or just contemplate something today or tomorrow that would reshape that picture, and I would push forward with a new and clearer understanding. You or kreagle or anyone else could tell me something that has the same effect. Learning is the beginning of Knowledge. Knowledge is the beginning of Wisdom. The Illumination of truth, forever unravelling, never ends...

Anyway, your question, based on what I comprehend today :)

In other words they follow a path of self "enlightenment" and rely on self growth end good deeds to get to heaven. a christian strives for growth and the fruit of the spirit but relies on faith is Jesus Christ to get to heaven, This is very different.

You say the methods are very different, but to be honest I don't recognise any differences fundamental to the issue. I'll explain why in a moment, but I shall intercede slightly on the mission brief by stating that I believe ‘Heaven’, the spiritual realms from which we all come, are open and available to all on departure from this life. We shall rise up into those higher realms, as certainly as a fish shall rise to the surface of the water when it too passes on. However, the ‘vibrational’ level you have attained in life determines the level/layer of Heaven to which you will go. The vibrations of which I speak you need not pay attention to. It’s not a Christian idea I know, think of it only as a kind of graduating level of awareness, humility, purity, etc. The Talmud spoke originally of ‘seven heavens’, so consider it the same kind of idea. ‘Hell’? That’s another post.

That is that we believe that every human being is a sinner and needs to repent and be forgiven before he can enter heaven.

I think that Jesus arrived in such chaotic, salacious, and evil times for a special reason. So many lived a life that was… well, not of the virtuous way! and not a way that was likely going to get them far once they passed over. Vast numbers needed saving in those oppressive, godless days (worse than today believe it or not). But of course those messages resonate through time, to today, and his lessons remain the same.

We are all ‘sinners’, if you wish to use that word, for ‘sin’ need not just be an ‘evil’, or a ‘depravity’, quite often for most of us it is just a form of ‘self-indulgence’ at the expense of another. The most important theme in Christ’s teachings, for me, is that human-beings are all brothers, sisters; that to transgress against a brother or a sister, to harm, extort, or ill-treat another is to harm, extort, or ill-treat oneself.

It is such an important message… To be ‘saved’, people must first and foremost learn to regard other people as they would have themselves regarded in others’ eyes: that is to say an intelligent, sovereign, yet flawed being. We are at the end of the day all flames of the same fire, all leaves of the same tree (of life), all sons and daughters of the same God-Creator.

Secondly, and I believe this very strongly. That to ‘cleanse’ ourselves of a sin, we must not look outside for absolution, to a practitioner of the faith to do it for us, or even to God… but to the inside. We may seek the forgiveness of God, and he will give it, for he is love, but should we not most of all learn to forgive ourselves? For doing so must be contingent on how we can then forgive others […as we forgive those who trespass against us…]

In not forgiving, we withhold love. And Alex Collier said: the love we withhold is the pain that we carry. Whatever you think of the man is irrelevant. What wonderful words. Pure truth, my friends. If we withhold love, how we can expect to receive it? If we do not receive it, how can we expect to be saved?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.

**

May I say also that Buddhists practice a form of forgiveness for transgressions (and negative karma) in the form of reciting Mantras (for the record I am not a Buddhist, but just wanted to add that, for the difference you see between faiths are not quite so black and white.).

The path to enlightenment which is, say, the Buddhist way, or salvation in the Christian faith, are not all that different. Buddhists seek Nirvana, complete oneness in surpassing the inner distortions of Aversion, Desire, and Delusion. A path to the light then is through self-purification. And that is the way of Jesus Christ, is it not? though rendered by means of different language and methodology.

Jesus says that no man can come to the Father than by him
By his way, certainly, but not necessarily through his name. Because his name is not known by all humanity, before his birth or after it. Christ was the way-shower. Follow that way, aware of his name, or not (a rose by any other name would smell as sweet), and the way to God is shown.

Mark (Star Mariner)

22nd September 2012, 17:22

The 'dilemma' you speak of, Star Mariner, is 'no dilemma at all' if you look at this from a 'proper perspective' and from the angle that God intended for 'all of mankind' to view it from, originally.

Thank you so very much for your kind words kreagle. And you're absolutely correct here, I agree completely. Krull is spot on also when he says: I will look at the general story and message in these bibles you will find that the basic story and message is the same.

The messages of the highest importance are the same, and the dilemma of which I spoke begins only when Man attempts to deviate from what is important (the teachings of Christ) and starts to focus on largely irrelevant backdrop issues.

Something that was always intended to be 'easy' has become very distorted and complex in the minds, hearts, and souls of many, entirely too many, individuals. Consequently they are faced with 'learning the hard way!' When one sits back and ponders the 'vast amount of doctrines, concepts, Biblical versions, etc.', it can leave a person in complete bewilderment, if your not careful and wise to what's going on.

There is great wisdom, as well as fascinating insights to history, found throughout the Bible. And a great deal of doctrine, put forth by a great number of different characters and individuals. And this is where the confusion of which you spoke arises. And it is why the most important information, for me, has always been found with the life of Jesus, his life, his example, as outlined in the New Testament.

Thank-you for linking to that other thread by the way. I wished to quote this part of what you said below:

Not only do we 'understand and acknowledge' what Jesus did for us,.... 'exactly',....with His death, burial, and resurrection,.....but now we also,....'understand and acknowledge' how,...we,too,....can 'follow in His same footsteps',....be 'Christ-like',...be a 'Christian',......and 'experience our own personal,....death, burial, and resurrection'!,.......NOT......in a 'physical way' like He did,.......but in a 'spiritual way'!!

I’m in total agreement with this interpretation. I think that is exactly what is meant!

I’m not sure if you meant this yourself, but here is a slightly different interpretation, a further little nugget to chew on, if you will.

And it is that all of us, throughout our lives undergo a kind of repeated spiritual death, burial, and resurrection, in that as we strive forward in our understanding, in our execution of being the best possible human-being we can be, we put aside those parts of ourselves that we no longer want, shed them like an old skin, and we resurrect inside of ourselves, like a pupa taking shape in a cocoon. I see that process continuing throughout our lives, all the way to our actual, physical deaths, where we break free of the cocoon at last, and fly free.

In love and light, my friends..

Rocky_Shorz

23rd September 2012, 03:51

kreagle

24th September 2012, 04:41

All 'Hands' on deck!,....

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/WunderWagen/2010%20VW%20Touareg%20TDI/FingerCFsteeringwheel.jpg

How many of you have been guilty of steering your vehicle using the 'finger steering method'? I know I have,....and continue to do so in situations, (driving conditions), where I feel 'fully in control'. Unfortunately, we are living in an era where there are those 'select individuals' who shamelessly only use 'one middle finger', towards others, as they navigate their way through our, sometimes, hectic lives. I hate to admit it, but prior to the Lord's intervention in my own personal life, there were times that I, too, didn't hesitate to charter my course with this 'same navigational tool'. What a difference Jesus can make in your life!

Of course, this casual 'finger steering method' changes, ( or should change), when we enter hazardous driving conditions. It's then that 'our grip' takes on a more serious tone as we enter into a heightened awareness of our surroundings. It's now time for 'both hands on the steering wheel!!!'

http://www.alz.org/maine/images/iStock_000000306214_lowres.jpg

I think we can all agree with 'both examples above' as we seem to have no problem recognizing our own 'responsibilities behind the wheel',.....but what about that 'other vehicle',...( our own souls),...that we are equally, and more importantly, required to navigate through this 'highway called LIFE?'
How many times are we, perhaps, guilty of casually employing the 'finger steering method',....when we should really be applying 'both hands on the steering wheel!' Are there times in this life that we can 'really afford' to let our guard down, completely? Don't get me wrong, for I fully believe that God intends for us to, occasionally 'kick back and enjoy a ride in the country',.....but we certainly need to be aware that 'hazards even exist' on those country roads, also! Those yellow caution signs, ( ie.,..Deer Crossing..), were put there for a reason, you know!

1 Peter 5:8 (KJV)

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The Apostle Peter warns us to 'be sober'. Now, certainly 'drinking and driving' don't mix,....we all know that,...right? We all understand the 'horrors of drunk driving' for I doubt seriously that there is anyone here who has not been affected, (directly or indirectly), by someone driving 'under the influence'. It's while 'under the influence' that one easily looses perception and begins to casually take a 'hand off the wheel', (among other things). But something tells me that Peter wasn't speaking of 'alcoholic beverages', here, in relationship to us being 'sober'. Again, we are speaking about the 'navigation of the soul',...and the 'drunkenness of the soul' we are relating to, here, doesn't come 'from a bottle'. Quite frankly, this type of 'drunkenness' is far more intoxicating than anything that can possibly.....come from a bottle, or 'smoked', or even 'shot in the veins'. Mankind seems to easily become drunken on his/her own,...abilities,....intellectualism,....wealth,....pride,....lusts,....etc. This ultimately leaves him/her in such a stupor that they are completely unaware of the pending 'disaster of the soul'. In this state, they've completely taken their 'spiritual hands' off of the 'steering wheel of their soul' and casually go down the road of LIFE using the 'finger steering method'. This is just another, (out of many), reasons we need to be filled with the Spirit of God to help guide us through this 'turbulent life' and help us 'keep both hands on the wheel!'

The 'things that matter the most',.......deserve 'both of our hands attention!'

And they 'do to our Creator,.....also!' Notice the following scriptures.......

Psalm 8:3-6 (KJV)

3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

and,........

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

and,........

Psalm 119:73 (KJV)

73 Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

Even the Scriptures, themselves, accurately 'paint a beautiful picture' of God's 'handy work', here. As magnificent as the heavens, moon, and stars are,...it appears that our loving Creator casually took the 'finger approach', and with His infinite power brought them into existence. They were the 'work of thy fingers',....but when it came to His prized creation, ( you and I ),....He reached down with His Hands and,...."Thy hands have made me and fashioned me:,..."

The 'things that mattered most to Him, (you and I)',.....deserved, and got,.....'both of His Hands attention!!!'

What a 'Sober,....Righteous,....and Loving God we serve!'

Perhaps it's time to get a 'better grip' on things,......perhaps it's time for 'both hands!'

As always, your friend, brother, and servant,.......kreagle

kreagle

24th September 2012, 09:28

Star Mariner,

Thank-you for linking to that other thread by the way. I wished to quote this part of what you said below:

Posted by kreagle (here)
Not only do we 'understand and acknowledge' what Jesus did for us,.... 'exactly',....with His death, burial, and resurrection,.....but now we also,....'understand and acknowledge' how,...we,too,....can 'follow in His same footsteps',....be 'Christ-like',...be a 'Christian',......and 'experience our own personal,....death, burial, and resurrection'!,.......NOT......in a 'physical way' like He did,.......but in a 'spiritual way'!!
I’m in total agreement with this interpretation. I think that is exactly what is meant!

I’m not sure if you meant this yourself, but here is a slightly different interpretation, a further little nugget to chew on, if you will.

And it is that all of us, throughout our lives undergo a kind of repeated spiritual death, burial, and resurrection, in that as we strive forward in our understanding, in our execution of being the best possible human-being we can be, we put aside those parts of ourselves that we no longer want, shed them like an old skin, and we resurrect inside of ourselves, like a pupa taking shape in a cocoon. I see that process continuing throughout our lives, all the way to our actual, physical deaths, where we break free of the cocoon at last, and fly free.

Hey brother,

Your analogy of the 'caterpillar becoming a butterfly' as compared to the 'new birth process achieved by the personal completion of the death, burial, and resurrection' is a 'good one',.....with the exception of the word,....'if'.

You see the caterpillar, by design and nature, has 'no choice' but to become a butterfly, for it is 'hard-wired' to do so. It has absolutely no alternative but to become what it was designed, by God, to become. If a bird doesn't alter the 'end results' of it's developmental stage by 'gobbling it up' in it's 'caterpillar stage', it will, indeed, 'fly away' at it's appointed time.

In the case of the 'new birth' experience, mankind has, in no way, been 'hard-wired' by God, for He has given each one of us the 'free-will' to choose to follow and obey His Word. If we follow in His footsteps,....complete the 'new birth' process of death, burial, and resurrection, with an Acts 2:38 experience, then we, will indeed, 'fly away' ourselves when our appointed time arrives!

To further distinguish the difference between the analogy you have supplied, the Apostle Paul speaks, in great detail, along the lines of God's Spirit dwelling in believer's,....but qualifies this with his usage of the word 'if' on multiple occasions. Again, this word 'if' clearly indicates there are 'qualifying principles in play' in order for His Spirit to be 'activated in the life of the believer.' This is found in Romans chapter 8, and I will supply the passage that he uses to indicate that we will 'fly', (or ascend), one day.

Romans 8:11 (KJV)

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

But,....make no 'ifs,...ands,....ors,....about it,,.......the 'new birth',...IS....available to 'whosoever will', my dear friend!

Your brother, friend, and servant,......kreagle

Mark (Star Mariner)

24th September 2012, 17:58

You see the caterpillar, by design and nature, has 'no choice' but to become a butterfly, for it is 'hard-wired' to do so. It has absolutely no alternative but to become what it was designed, by God, to become. If a bird doesn't alter the 'end results' of it's developmental stage by 'gobbling it up' in it's 'caterpillar stage', it will, indeed, 'fly away' at it's appointed time.

In the case of the 'new birth' experience, mankind has, in no way, been 'hard-wired' by God, for He has given each one of us the 'free-will' to choose to follow and obey His Word. If we follow in His footsteps,....complete the 'new birth' process of death, burial, and resurrection, with an Acts 2:38 experience, then we, will indeed, 'fly away' ourselves when our appointed time arrives!

Hey mate! I do see what you saying here, but I am at variance on the interpretation, and I’d like to discuss why:

I think that we are hard-wired, very much so. And this is defined by the very purpose of our existence. We, as humans, are no accident. There are no accidents. No soul that incarnates arrives by accident, or even in the wrong place. We began in a specific place, because, if you like, God put us there. And for a reason!...

For a Plan.

Even though that Plan maybe hidden from us (until the End). But every soul that comes into this life has a Plan.

There is a life-path in front of us, reaching toward a mysterious prospect. A highway. And it is that which we are hard-wired to follow, our allotted personal path that guides us through the lessons in life. No Life is set into the wilderness to wander witlessly. We have a hard-wired path, and we are meant to follow it.

But in our own way, and in our own good time, because that is free-will. That is our Gift. Free-will defines how we follow that path, that highway set aside for us. How we adhere to it (or not).

I hope you understand what I’m driving at here (pun intended!) Because I agree, there is an ‘if’, involved, based on choice. But there is a hard wiring involved, and it is to know, and to be, with God (at the end of that highway).

It is very much like your excellent car analogy – one finger on the wheel. You succinctly and very precisely highlight this process. We may idle along, wavering perhaps from this lane or into that – via free-will – but with one finger in charge of our rudder. And we may skew awry of where we really should be going. We get diverted. Some may even career far wide, and bump along on the shoulder, flirting with destruction.

In a nutshell, the spiritual rebirth of which I spoke is there for us all if (there’s your ‘if’) we have both hands on the wheel, and heed the signposts of life which follow the Way to it, the true path to Destiny.

Alternatively we may reject it, and go right off course!

But,....make no 'ifs,...ands,....ors,....about it,,.......the 'new birth',...IS....available to 'whosoever will', my dear friend!

Absolutely! It is an ‘if’ – whether we go this way, or that way. But the way is always there, hard-wired in us, if only we would but recognise it. Some do, some do not. But all is in accordance with our own free will to follow it (or not).

Anyway mate... these are my beliefs. And it's fine of course if they don't jive with your own! Differences of opinion, variations in belief... it doesn't really matter, does it. As I said before these are just details. Compassion, humility, love... that’s all that counts. They trump all!

kreagle

24th September 2012, 22:59

Star Mariner,

Thanks again, for your valued response. Perhaps an additional word, that I could have used, would have been the word 'robotic', along with the word 'if'.

I think that we are hard-wired, very much so. And this is defined by the very purpose of our existence. We, as humans, are no accident. There are no accidents. No soul that incarnates arrives by accident, or even in the wrong place. We began in a specific place, because, if you like, God put us there. And for a reason!...

'Hard-wired', in definition, prohibits and completely removes the 'if factor'. A 'hard-wired' human would be, in effect, a 'robot' to go in 'one direction', and one direction, only. I used this illustration, earlier, on this thread, where 'seeker1972' wanted to know why God just didn't create people who were 'incapable of failing the test we call life' Our conversation, on this, is back on page 4 of this thread, and I have supplied the link, if you wanted to glance at it.

Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48678-Bible-Topics-and-Questions&p=543821&viewfull=1#post543821

We, as humans, are no accident. There are no accidents. No soul that incarnates arrives by accident, or even in the wrong place. We began in a specific place, because, if you like, God put us there. And for a reason!...

I could not possibly agree with you any more than the 'entirety of your statement, here.' You are completely correct, in that, we are no 'accident'. God definitely put us here for a reason. He had a 'specific plan and design' for us when He originally set us down in the Garden of Eden,....but those 'designs and plans' were altered drastically when Adam and Eve disobeyed God's simple instructions. Because they, like us today, were not 'hard-wired' they made an 'alternative choice' which led to them being expelled from the 'Utopian surroundings' that the Garden of Eden afforded them. It's because of our 'great ancestor's choice' then that has relegated mankind to the position of being the 'original Prodigal son'. Sin caused this 'prodigal existence' and drove us away from God,....and now we 'all' must make 'another choice!' We 'all' must either choose to,.....#1) remain where we currently are in life,......OR, 'if we'.......#2) come 'to ourselves and return to our Father's house! Once again, we see 'sandwiched in between' our choices that pivotal word 'if'. Our 'God-given choice' will ultimately 'swing the pendulum one way or the other'.

'Hard-wired' means we've got 'no choice', and that we must accept the terms of our 'wiring'. We've been pre-programmed towards our robotic end. Should we desire to 'alter our course', we can't, because,....after all, we've been 'hard-wired!' In all actuality, we are the 'only Creative Act of God' that isn't hard-wired. An acorn, when planted is 'hard-wired' to become an oak tree. It will never produce lemons. The 'seed of a dog' will become a puppy, then grow to be a dog, likewise. It will never be a monkey.

We, humans, are the 'only Creative Act of God' that have been granted the 'privilege of choice'. The trees don't have it, all of herbal life doesn't have it, animal life doesn't have it, the fish and fowl don't have it. Only,...you and I do! They have been 'hard-wired' to be what they are, without a 'choice in the matter'. It's in the 'soul of mankind' that makes the 'ultimate difference'. Because of the 'value of the soul', we have been given the 'exclusive rights to choice' that the rest of God's creation does not have.

It's because of the 'boundless Mercy and Grace' of God, we've been given the privilege of 'choice' to decide the 'direction in life we want to go'. Of course, with that choice comes responsibility,...for we will have to be responsible and accept the terms of the 'choice we all make'.

Choose wisely, my dear friend!

I look forward, with much anticipation, to our 'next' dialogue, brother!

Your brother, friend, and servant,......kreagle

Mark (Star Mariner)

25th September 2012, 15:51

'Hard-wired', in definition, prohibits and completely removes the 'if factor'. A 'hard-wired' human would be, in effect, a 'robot' to go in 'one direction', and one direction, only. I used this illustration, earlier, on this thread, where 'seeker1972' wanted to know why God just didn't create people who were 'incapable of failing the test we call life' Our conversation, on this, is back on page 4 of this thread, and I have supplied the link, if you wanted to glance at it.

Thank you kreagle again. I enjoy these discussions a lot!

Anyway, I accept everything you’re saying and you’re right in the explanation you give, and in your later exposition by way of Christian thinking, but this isn’t exactly what I meant. I was trying to get to the root of something different when I said ‘Hard-wired’.

It’s something more fundamental than what you mean. I’m talking firstly about purpose, about human destiny. And secondly about God ‘himself’. In fact I overlapped in my description of ‘two’ separate forms of hard-wiring that we have.

Perhaps the problem here is that ‘Hard-wired’ is not a good term for this human complex which exists in our minds and our spirits. ‘Desire’ is better – an innate (subconscious) draw firstly to our accorded paths.

For example, some are meant to be doctors, some farmers, some astronauts, or ministers, or fishermen and so forth. These are paths put here for us to follow, in accordance with our naturally given gifts and abilities. And along those special paths meant for us are the signposts we are meant to read along the way, and the lessons we are meant to learn. Everyone is instilled with a need to explore our given plan, with our given gifts, and put them to a specific use in our lives. This is what one type of hard-wiring (that word again) is.

The other I mention is an urge for God. Because we all are a part of God, a divine fragment that, for a short while, has separated from God, but is one day destined to return.

It is in us, every single one of us – yes even the bad guys – that urge to find God, experience God, understand through life, and transition, and revelation, what is the nature of God and our connection to him.

Because it is the nature of ‘life’ that we come into it with complete ignorance of our origin – amnesia – of what we truly are, and it is a struggle all the way. This is the Test… to stumble through the dark and find that shining light to Revelation. This is the entire point to it. And this is your second hard-wire.

When those who have moved for so long through the dark eventually find it? It’s well… I don’t need to tell you I think. You’ve found it, so you know what it felt like.

But it was there inside of you all along, and for so long you just didn’t know what it was. But it was there… an urge, an impulse, that is to say an instinctive longing for a spiritual connection to God.

'Hard-wired' means we've got 'no choice', and that we must accept the terms of our 'wiring'.

For me it means that choice is programmed within us! But you’re right of course in that it is absent in life-forms that have no free-will, such as the dog, or the acorn. But a life imbued with free-will, which is us humans, have the capacity to choose our ultimate path. We may heed what is given, or override it; turn off that wire – or it may be more accurate to say allow ourselves to be distracted away from it. And from here begins the root of all Human distortion.

The misery we see on this earth is borne out of everything – everyone who has failed somehow to follow their path. The criminal, the murderer, the drug-addict… This was not God’s intent, this was not their original intent either – these choices in life were never a part of their Plan. They ran off the road, and to compensate for their disconnection from God, from Love and from Source, they attempt to fill in the gaps with the dark energies of selfishness, indulgence, hedonism, drugs, you name it.

So this is what I am saying. Hard-wiring is merely a blueprint, imprinted in our consciousness and in our souls. How ultimately it is realised in the final architecture is down to choice.

It's in the 'soul of mankind' that makes the 'ultimate difference'. Because of the 'value of the soul', we have been given the 'exclusive rights to choice' that the rest of God's creation does not have.

Absolutely. Here's another way to look at it in a Christian sense: Think of the two trees of Genesis. And forget for a moment the deeper symbolism found therein, this is just a simple example. But let’s say the fruit of one tree is a path to light, the other leads away from that light. The hard-wiring is the inevitability that Eve will be tempted to eat one of the fruit presented, because she is hard-wired to be hungry. But which fruit? That is her own choice. And that’s your free will.

kreagle

26th September 2012, 03:30

Star Mariner,

Quite frankly, your latest post reveals to me that, in a round about way, we both have a little bit more 'common ground' on this 'hard-wire' subject than I originally thought.

Perhaps the problem here is that ‘Hard-wired’ is not a good term for this human complex which exists in our minds and our spirits. ‘Desire’ is better – an innate (subconscious) draw firstly to our accorded paths.

For me it means that choice is programmed within us! But you’re right of course in that it is absent in life-forms that have no free-will, such as the dog, or the acorn. But a life imbued with free-will, which is us humans, have the capacity to choose our ultimate path. We may heed what is given, or override it; turn off that wire – or it may be more accurate to say allow ourselves to be distracted away from it. And from here begins the root of all Human distortion.

Whereas, you view the concept of mankind being 'hard-wired' but still having the ability to 'choose', ( override, or turn off the wire),.....I, personally, understand that the term itself, ( hard-wired), means to not have the capability to alter the course it has been programmed for. Please forgive me for being a 'stickler for words', but my curiosity went a 'step further' to actually 'look up the definition' of the term, and this is what I found.

hard-wired /ˈhɑrdˈwaɪərd/ Show Spelled[hahrd-wahyuhrd] Show IPA
adjective
1. Computers .
a. built into a computer's hardware and thus not readily changed.
b. (of a terminal) connected to a computer by a direct circuit rather than through a switching network.
2. (of electrical or electronic components) connected by hardwiring.
3. pertaining to or being an intrinsic and relatively unmodifiable behavior pattern: Every cricket has a hard-wired pattern of chirps.

As you can see, by definition #3 especially, to be 'hard-wired' means to have a relatively unmodifiable behavior pattern. Further review of this 'specific term' does tend to lend some 'wiggle room', ( but not much), towards your viewpoint. I will let you know that I 'wholeheartedly agree' that mankind has been 'programmed to know and/or respond to God', and I have always felt that way, as indicated by this 'earlier post' about 'Do you believe in God?'. If you decide to click on the link I have provided, scroll down to the 'true story' I relate about 'there are no atheists in foxholes' that shows that, I too, ascribe to the fact that we 'all' have it 'programmed' within us to call out to God.

Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43906-Do-you-believe-in-God&p=470618&viewfull=1#post470618

You went further, Star Mariner, by selecting a 'better' term than 'hard-wired', and that was the word 'desire', to which I equally agree. From a Biblical standpoint, the Bible uses the 'best' term by simply calling it 'faith!'

Romans 12:3 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

When God, in His infinite Wisdom,....'dealt to every man the measure of faith',......He literally put within each one of us a 'seed' that was meant to germinate and come to complete fruition, if we would only allow it to grow.

Luke 17:6 (KJV)

6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

I believe here is what the Scriptures are endeavoring to relate to us about our 'inward abilities'. It's not a matter of being 'hard-wired' and 'robotic in nature', but instead it's a matter of 'allowing the seed of faith to grow' and to reach maturity in our lives.

Conversely, every horticulturist knows that in order for a 'seed' to grow,.....it must 'first seek out the Light!'

And Jesus is the 'only Light' that will germinate the 'seed of faith' that the Bible is speaking about, here.

John 1:9-10 (KJV)

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not

As always, ........your friend, brother, and servant,..........kreagle

Akasha

26th September 2012, 07:53

Hi there Kreagle and thanks for this thread. I have especially been enjoying the latter part so far and in particular your dialogue with Star Mariner (thanks Star Mariner!).

With regard to 1 John 4.8 and specifically within it the iconic phrase "God is love" would you say it is fair to extrapolate from that that love is God? (A notion I personally subscribe to).

kreagle

26th September 2012, 08:58

Akasha,

Hey, my British friend!,.....let me be one of the first to 'warmly welcome' you to Avalon, brother! Great to have you on board, and I sincerely hope you will make yourself at home, here. I, too, am greatly enjoying the conversations between Star Mariner and myself, and of course with everyone else, also. It will be great to have 'additional comments' from you,....so join right in!

Hi there Kreagle and thanks for this thread. I have especially been enjoying the latter part so far and in particular your dialogue with Star Mariner (thanks Star Mariner!).

With regard to 1 John 4.8 and specifically within it the iconic phrase "God is love" would you say it is fair to extrapolate from that that love is God? (A notion I personally subscribe to).

1 John 4:8 (KJV)

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

'God is love',........and.......'love is God'. Forward and backwards,...Backward and forwards,.......it sounds like you've 'subscribed to the perfect combination', brother!

God's love transcends into a 'level' that we, humans, really can't 'fully comprehend!' It is occasionally referred to as 'AGAPE' and fully put on display at Calvary.

What a mighty God, we serve!

Once again, welcome brother!,.........kreagle

Mark (Star Mariner)

26th September 2012, 16:05

Star Mariner,

Thank you very much for the thoughtful reply, kreagle. I’m sure we have found the same page now and a common ground to work with!

Yes it really was just a matter of language, of semantics. A ‘technological’ phrase like ‘hard-wired’ was not quite accurate for the depiction of the concepts that we were both trying to explain.

As you can see, by definition #3 especially, to be 'hard-wired' means to have a relatively unmodifiable behavior pattern. Further review of this 'specific term' does tend to lend some 'wiggle room', ( but not much), towards your viewpoint. I will let you know that I 'wholeheartedly agree' that mankind has been 'programmed to know and/or respond to God', and I have always felt that way, as indicated by this 'earlier post' about 'Do you believe in God?'.

Perhaps, to coin a term, ‘Soft-Wired’ might do the best job of all? We could call “Soft-Wired” then, ‘a preternatural orientation’, a persuasion – in this instance to seek out and connect with the Power all around us, and within us, that is God.

If you decide to click on the link I have provided, scroll down to the 'true story' I relate about 'there are no atheists in foxholes' that shows that, I too, ascribe to the fact that we 'all' have it 'programmed' within us to call out to God.
Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43906-Do-you-believe-in-God&p=470618&viewfull=1#post470618

Thank-you for the link. A very interesting story there about Vietnam, describing a universally repeating theme in the life-experiences of many which elucidates that ‘Soft-wiring’ again. Ignored all their lives, when it came to the crunch, and that desperate situation, it ‘lit up’, and God was very suddenly and very abundantly clear in those soldiers’ minds!

Atheism. Those that believe in nothing, in no higher power at all… I have always had a kind of bemused fascination with Atheists, perhaps the same way that a fish of the ocean is bemused, and a tad incredulous, of another fish that doesn’t believe in water. Atheists have their lessons nonetheless, their personal journey in life. So it is not for me to cast judgement, only in that one day the Light will be revealed, and they will slap their foreheads in wonder of their obtuse thinking.

I need not preach to the choir.

Atheism does however have a clear purpose when it is viewed through… ahem, the lens of a certain subtle force which will most likely not sit easily on the shelves of your ideological library. And that is ‘karma’. So I won’t go there :) (unless you wanted to explore it).

You went further, Star Mariner, by selecting a 'better' term than 'hard-wired', and that was the word 'desire', to which I equally agree. From a Biblical standpoint, the Bible uses the 'best' term by simply calling it 'faith!'

Faith is a great term to use, but only as an end-result. I feel that it cannot exist if the inclination has not yet been tapped into. As you say here:

When God, in His infinite Wisdom,....'dealt to every man the measure of faith',......He literally put within each one of us a 'seed' that was meant to germinate and come to complete fruition, if we would only allow it to grow.

I believe here is what the Scriptures are endeavoring to relate to us about our 'inward abilities'. It's not a matter of being 'hard-wired' and 'robotic in nature', but instead it's a matter of 'allowing the seed of faith to grow' and to reach maturity in our lives.

I agree, that is exactly right. The ‘seed’ exists, is there, and always will be, yet only as a potential until it is fed, until it is en-lightened, and shoots forth into Faith.

Conversely, every horticulturist knows that in order for a 'seed' to grow,.....it must 'first seek out the Light!'

Right on mate!

I really must commend and admire your command of scripture, and in plucking out just the right passage. Do you have much of these memorized?!

**

Hi there Akasha and welcome to the discussion:

With regard to 1 John 4.8 and specifically within it the iconic phrase "God is love" would you say it is fair to extrapolate from that that love is God? (A notion I personally subscribe to).

I need add nothing more than what kreagle has already said, except that although God is love, and Love is God, God can be much more than even that!

Have you or kreagle ever seen Star Wars? The Jedis talk about ‘the Force’, this incredible unseen force that ‘binds the galaxy together’ etc. Well that is a very good interpretation of describing another aspect to God (however Mr. Lucas seemed to miss out the part about love). But the galaxy, the universe, the All-That-Is really is in essence, for me anyway, a materialization – a communication if you will – a wonderful and infinitely various expression of God manifesting itself/himself/herself into tangible reality. There are quite a few who subscribe to this kind of idea, and some of them call it ‘the God-verse’.

Akasha

26th September 2012, 19:58

I need add nothing more than what kreagle has already said, except that although God is love, and Love is God, God can be much more than even that!

Have you or kreagle ever seen Star Wars? The Jedis talk about ‘the Force’, this incredible unseen force that ‘binds the galaxy together’ etc. Well that is a very good interpretation of describing another aspect to God (however Mr. Lucas seemed to miss out the part about love). But the galaxy, the universe, the All-That-Is really is in essence, for me anyway, a materialization – a communication if you will – a wonderful and infinitely various expression of God manifesting itself/himself/herself into tangible reality. There are quite a few who subscribe to this kind of idea, and some of them call it ‘the God-verse’.

I'm glad we're all on the same page regarding the notion that love is God. However, in response to your statement that "God can be much more than that" I'm struggling to wrap my head around the idea that love can be "much more than" love. How d'you figure the "All-That-Is" can be "much more than" the "All-That-Is". :confused: Don't get me wrong, I'm open to what you are saying. Maybe I just need an example to get where you're coming from.

In response to the hard wired/soft wired conundrum which you and Kreagle have been discussing, I feel that we are all manifestations of love (wether we choose to accept it in this lifetime or not) and as a result it is this that is responsible for the sub-conscious yearning or "preternatural orientation" which you mentioned previously.

Sorry if I'm drifting off topic slightly. There wasn't much biblical content in the above was there? :ohwell:

kreagle

27th September 2012, 03:56

Star Mariner,

Hey brother and friend!

I really must commend and admire your command of scripture, and in plucking out just the right passage. Do you have much of these memorized?!

I thank you kindly for your commendations, but I gladly reflect them back to the One who deserves them,.....our Lord Jesus. Since being 'filled with His Spirit', some 32 years ago, I have learned the value of 'collecting and storing' His Word within my heart, much like the little squirrel 'collects and stores' his nuts for the long winter months he is facing. I have, indeed, memorized a 'great deal' of various passages, which His Spirit brings back to my recollection for those 'golden moments' in which they are to be deployed and used. Thanks to 'modern technology', ( and a 'search engine' on my Bible app!), I am able to remember a 'few select words, or passages,.....type them in the 'search engine',.....and then recall the precise passage I am looking for to use in that particular 'golden moment'. Of course, I wouldn't have a particular 'point to draw from' if I had not, earlier, 'collected and stored' the passage in my heart somewhere in the past. Here are a couple of 'hallmark passages' that began my quest........

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Psalm 119:11 (KJV)

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

It was basically from these 'two passages' that I began to allow God to write upon the 'canvas of my heart' with His Glorious Word. For any 'willing candidate' who will avail himself/herself to the 'Hand of the Master', the Work that He does will put to shame the 'greatest Rembrandt's and Picasso's of this world!' As in the case of the Genesis' account of creation,... when He finishes a Work that He is 'allowed to do', ( which certainly applies in 'our' case ),....these 'words of completion',...." and God saw that it was good.",....still 'echo today!'

and in plucking out just the right passage.

As I alluded to, earlier, It literally comes from Him, brother, in that I know, understand, and accept, that my ability only 'goes so far.'

Mark 13:11 (KJV)

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

again,.......

Luke 12:11-12 (KJV)

11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say

I can't begin to relay, here, the vast 'numbers of times' that God has placed me in various situations, (over the last 32 years), where I would begin to 'speak on His behalf' and to be absolutely astonished at the 'things that were coming out of my mouth!' Yes,....it was my mouth and voice being used,....but, the Words and Wisdom were not coming from 'kreagle',....they were coming from Him!

Consequently, I have come to realize, and observe, the many times where He has 'skillfully used me' to speak the 'right Words,....at the right time!'

Proverbs 25:11 (KJV)

11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.

http://gotfruitblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/proverbs-25-11-20090314.png

********************The 'Word of God'*********************

While 'some' have discarded It and trampled It under foot,......'others' stumble upon It on a road paved with 'mercy and grace', and cherish It for the rest of their lives!

Psalm 119:162 (KJV)

162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.

Your brother, friend, and servant,...........kreagle

Mark (Star Mariner)

27th September 2012, 14:40

I'm glad we're all on the same page regarding the notion that love is God. However, in response to your statement that "God can be much more than that" I'm struggling to wrap my head around the idea that love can be "much more than" love. How d'you figure the "All-That-Is" can be "much more than" the "All-That-Is". :confused: Don't get me wrong, I'm open to what you are saying. Maybe I just need an example to get where you're coming from.

Hey Akasha. Yes I do see what you’re saying, it does seem a bit of a non-sequitur that God can be more than well, God! But the context is all important. I did not mean to say that ‘love can be more than love’, love is just love, and God is the embodiment of love, however God is also the embodiment of wisdom, grace, humility, patience, compassion… and much more.

There is also a misconception in the Human perception of God, in how many maintain a very simplistic, humanized impression of God in their minds, most often an elderly man with a flowing white beard etc. Our view of this issue may differ here, which is absolutely fine…

In response to the hard wired/soft wired conundrum which you and Kreagle have been discussing, I feel that we are all manifestations of love (wether we choose to accept it in this lifetime or not) and as a result it is this that is responsible for the sub-conscious yearning or "preternatural orientation" which you mentioned previously.

A very good interpretation. Everybody is exactly that, a God in microcosm incarnate upon the earth – infinite power and infinite love in every being, however that divine core is most often darkly and deeply shrouded behind many layers of doubt, fear, and ego-distortion. Unfortunately so many have no clue about that, and that is exactly where TPTB would prefer to keep it!

Proverbs 25:11 (KJV)
11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.

Hey kreagle, and thanks again for your thoughtful words! You are a learned man my friend to have absorbed, and be able to retain, that amount of information – and blessed to be put in a humbling position to be an instrument through which truth can flow!

But it really is beautifully apt, isn’t it, that the truth stays with us. That is because truth is already in us from the beginning (that wiring again!), but it is forever struggling, striving, to survive amid the detritus of earthly distortion… but when the chord is struck, and the truth hits home, it truly is like an apple of gold, suddenly, in pictures of silver. (I love that saying, mate!) And it is impossible to lose it once it is found… Never thereafter can Truth slip beneath the detritus.

All the best!

Akasha

27th September 2012, 19:56

Akasha

27th September 2012, 20:53

Star Mariner, I should also add that I totally agree with you regarding the "misconception in the Human perception of God". My concept of love actually being God helps to avoid that anthropomorphic trap too, instead summoning up images of energy or "the force" as you mentioned in one of your earlier posts.

Beren

27th September 2012, 22:02

Devil-liar

Devil (the concept) is a lie in motion or a person who identified with a or the lie.
This can be anybody.

Thus God sent his son in flesh to prove to all souls in existence that being in flesh is also divine and Godly.
Literary all is one on the highest level.
So God decided to materialize though Jesus and show other non materialized souls of how divine and Godly is to be human.

In the same time Jesus was separate being or a soul of the highest order.
But in essence Jesus is one with Father who is the spirit.

So dichotomy as it looks like but in essence the perfection at work.
God is spirit. So God is omnipresent and all-powerful and most importantly God is Love.

Jesus is God`s own image in flesh and further on in spirit world.
Only when one attains this level where Jesus was is and will be CAN see the Father.
No one ever saw God save Jesus.

But here`s the call from Jesus noted in Bible ; to whole humanity to become as Jesus is, to be at his level so we can see God wholly for the first time by merging with it.
Jesus is the door and no one can come to God unless through Jesus.

This is the core of his message, to grow into that frequency where he is so one can be united with God in all levels.

Full unity is only possible when one merges utterly with God and all separateness is dissolved into God - which is all that is ,which is Love.

kreagle

27th September 2012, 22:25

Akasha,

Thanks, so much, for your valued input, my friend!

Thanks for that, Star Mariner. I understand what you are saying now, but would you not agree that "wisdom, grace, humility, patience, compassion" are in fact attributes of love, not to mention the other qualities ascribed to "the Spirit" in Galatians 5.22-23 ?

I am confident that Star Mariner is more than able to 'speak for himself' on this, but I thought I would offer some insight on what I see, here. In reading Star Mariner's post, again, I don't believe he was putting a 'division' between the 'love of God' and, as he says........"however God is also the embodiment of wisdom, grace, humility, patience, compassion… and much more." As I see it, one needs to realize that when you begin to 'accept the terms and concepts of God, you get the 'whole package', so-to-speak.' You really can't get 'one' attribute of Him,....without getting the 'other',.....in that He just doesn't come 'packaged like that!' This is, sadly, where a great deal of 'individuals' really get themselves in a lot of spiritual/religious trouble because they try over and over to 'piece-meal' God out in their lives. They try to 'pick and choose' the 'terms and concepts of God', ( the 'ones they want'), instead of accepting Him in His entirety!

Matthew 4:4 (KJV)

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Star Mariner, I should also add that I totally agree with you regarding the "misconception in the Human perception of God". My concept of love actually being God helps to avoid that anthropomorphic trap too, instead summoning up images of energy or "the force" as you mentioned in one of your earlier posts.

Akasha, this 'misconception in the Human perception of God', is something that continues, ( and will continue), to haunt 'carnal mankind'. The 'only way to begin to understand Him' is to 'escape the bondage of carnality' and to be filled with the 'Holy Ghost', just like the 'early believers' were on the Day of Pentecost, in Acts chapter two. Then, and then only, will this 'misconception', you speak of, be defeated, finally allowing the 'rays of truth to shine in your heart!"

Romans 8:5-10 (KJV)

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

And 'this', my friend and brother, is certainly part of that 'package deal' that I spoke of earlier! The 'infilling of the Holy Ghost', ( with the evidence of speaking in 'other tongues' , as the Spirit gives the utterance).

And 'then' you will 'fully see,.....with no misconception!'

Your brother, friend, and servant,.........kreagle

778 neighbour of some guy

27th September 2012, 22:26

kreagle

28th September 2012, 03:08

This is the core of his message, to grow into that frequency where he is so one can be united with God in all levels.

Full unity is only possible when one merges utterly with God and all separateness is dissolved into God - which is all that is ,which is Love.

Matisyahu... Lord raise me Up

hhbJMlBzWd8

hey brother,

Have to admit that I did not recognize this individual, so I 'Googled his name' and educated myself by reading about his life through Wikipedia. He's had a very interesting life. I only wish I knew the Hebrew language so I could 'fully enjoy' what he was singing about. It 'sounded good', but without 'understanding the words' it's hard to really make an educated decision as to 'how much' I enjoyed it.

your brother,........kreagle

kreagle

28th September 2012, 08:12

It 'doesn't take much',...to make 'all the difference in the World!'

************The 'Measure of Faith'************

From 'this',........
http://c0013699.r32.cf1.rackcdn.com/x2_53b1886

Luke 13:19 (KJV)

19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.

To 'one of these',........
http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-new-intro-modal/ehow/images/a08/as/kr/size-mustard-seed-tree-800x800.jpg

On 'another thread', by Anchor, ( Faith and Will), I submitted the following post. This deals with 'faith', (which we've recently talked about), and I want to equally share it, here, with you. I sincerely pray that it helps each of you in your personal quest for a 'victorious Christian life!' I've supplied the link,...if you care to view it.

Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?50159-Faith-and-Will&p=560821&viewfull=1#post560821

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

While 'most' are captivated by the descriptive term of faith being,....'the evidence of things not seen',......I'm afraid that little, to no, attention is being paid to the first descriptive part of the Scripture which tells us that,.......'faith is the substance!!'

Until 'mankind' starts viewing, and treating, faith as a 'genuine substance', I'm afraid there are going to be a lot of people failing to fully realize and achieve what God has in store for them.

To your credit, you accurately point this concept out, with your example of 'breathing air' that we can't see, but that we all know it's there. My only problem with this is that I'm really not sure how many, of those same people, are really, truthfully, understanding what the Bible is telling us about 'substance' and it's relationship to 'faith!'

Herein lies the problem. If we wave our hand through 'open air', and our 'eyes are open', then we do not expect to 'hit anything',.....right? Under this simple exercise, we fully expect to come up 'empty-handed', don't we? After all, we have our 'eyes wide open' and we've all clearly seen that 'nothing is there',....right?

Conversely,....can anyone, here, imagine, (just for a moment), how you would feel, or respond, if you were to complete this 'same exercise', but 'this time', to your amazement, you actually 'feel a tangible object striking against your hand?' As your eyes 'widen with astonishment', you begin to 'feel this tangible object'. which has now become 'substance'.You can't 'see' it,...but you can 'sure feel it!' What would you do? How would you respond? Would you become a 'believer',.....or would you 'scream and run for the hills?'

Is anyone 'beginning to see', (understand), why we humans have so much problems with this kind of 'Biblical faith?'

Faith has 'substance', folks! By definition,....'substance has mass and occupies space!!' If you and I walk up to 'each other' and 'extend a hand for a handshake',.....I fully 'expect to feel your hand as both of our hands unite!' I do not expect to come up 'empty handed!'

Let me share, with you, a very interesting Passage that should 'illustrate this concept further',.......

Matthew 14:24-31 (KJV)

24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.

25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.

28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

As 'Creator, Savior, and Restorator',......Jesus took His 'Creative Word', rebuked His Creation, (the 'elements and the boisterous sea'), He 'over-rode' their properties, and walked 'triumphantly over them, and upon them!' He simply 'walked upon His Word!'

He wants His Creation, (us), to be 'triumphant, also!',....over the many 'obstacles we face!'

If we will 'only learn' to follow in the 'steps of our Master', and 'stand on His Word,.....put 'faith' in His Word,.....and start treating 'faith like it has substance',.....we will 'all' begin to find that we are 'walking on top of situations/problems' that were 'formerly sinking us!'

While there are 'those' who believe that there was 'water underneath Peter's feet',....as he walked, ( for awhile), towards Jesus,.....I will submit to 'each of you' that this is a 'complete misunderstanding and interpretation of the Scriptures!'

You, nor I, ( nor Peter), can 'walk on water',.....it's an 'impossibility!'

But,.....we can, ( and Peter did),.....walk on 'faith' in His Word,.....and 'if' we 'just happen to be',.....over water,.....or......any other potential 'sinking problem/situation',....we will 'rise to the top and be victorious in Jesus' name!'

Between the soles of Peter's feet and that boisterous sea was a 'thin layer of faith',.....'faith with substance',......'real faith',.....'tangible faith',.....'you could feel it',.....'he knew he could rely upon it',......and consequently 'it held him up as he got out of the boat to walk to Jesus!' It was only 'after he doubted and took his eyes off of Jesus and viewed the storm', that the 'substance of faith' began to 'dissipate' causing him to sink and to call out to be saved.

Perhaps it would be wise to 'reach out and grab hold of faith', my friends,....and whatever you do,....don't be surprised and 'run away' when 'something tangible' winds up in your hands!

Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

Mark (Star Mariner)

28th September 2012, 16:34

Thanks for that, Star Mariner. I understand what you are saying now, but would you not agree that "wisdom, grace, humility, patience, compassion" are in fact attributes of love, not to mention the other qualities ascribed to "the Spirit" in Galatians 5.22-23 ?

You are absolutely right! And very nicely put. All those good things I mentioned are sub-divisions of love, just as we are subdivisions of God - just walking capsules of love, if only we all knew it.

I should also add that I totally agree with you regarding the "misconception in the Human perception of God". My concept of love actually being God helps to avoid that anthropomorphic trap too, instead summoning up images of energy or "the force" as you mentioned in one of your earlier posts.

Yeh absolutely. I do understand why many feel they need to place a human face on "God", and Christians may quote: 'god created man in his own image', so that is quite likely the origin of that ideology.

While there are 'those' who believe that there was 'water underneath Peter's feet',....as he walked, ( for awhile), towards Jesus,.....I will submit to 'each of you' that this is a 'complete misunderstanding and interpretation of the Scriptures!'

You, nor I, ( nor Peter), can 'walk on water',.....it's an 'impossibility!'

Even though me and you may differ in the woven pattern and colour of our ideologies, kreagle, we share the same source nonetheless, and the yarns of our understanding weave toward the same destination. That is why I visited this thread, to help bring to the table different or even completely disparate themes that can still find a common ground. Religious separation is a great evil in this world, perhaps the worst of all. I would love for all of us, of whatever belief, and from whatever background, to sit down together, break bread and celebrate that which brings us together rather than what sets us apart. (see my Avatar).

See… in an amused sort of way I’m a tad confused! You strike me as someone who interprets the bible very strictly to the letter, so it really surprises me that you derive a metaphorical meaning in this passage rather than a literal. Normally I’d say that was a good thing, the separation of which I spoke before, the ‘taking corners’ arises from reading everything by the letter.

But here kreagle, and mate I think you’ll laugh at this! For here is a spiritual free-thinker telling the Christian that his interpretation of scripture is not hard-core enough!! Lol.

I do believe that we can, very literally walk on water with the Power of thought – belief, if we know how to manifest it. I must think that you do believe that Jesus himself did do this right? From walking on water to curing the sick, he performed what in our day to day existence is nothing short of miracles, right? If he did not, and we are left with completely with metaphor, then the life of Jesus is reduced to what, a fairy-tale?

I submit to you, kreagle, that walking on water is NOT an impossibility. Christ could do this, not as a parlour trick, and not because of some stupid human distortion that would call it witchcraft or some other nonsense. He did it because he was so advanced in Spirit that he literally had command of Matter manifested around him. Nothing he did was outside of natural law – and yes that means Science. Parapsychology.

Radical Christians would have this as the devil’s work, which is garbage talk. For the sake of all that is merciful, Jesus did it!! Jesus showed it, at work before the disbelieving eyes of his followers. The Romans crucified him because he was so advanced in the Mysteries that he posed a massive threat to them.

Spirit trumps matter, every day of the week!

Listen, my friend. Jesus was a symbol of all that we can become if we could just understand that there is a Power in our soul, waiting to be tapped. We are not Humans with a spirit inside of us, we are Spirits clad in human shape, and that we are each and everyone one of us a sub-division of the Creator-Source. This is what Jesus came to tell us. This is what Jesus came to show us, to present a perfect paradigm for us to aspire to.

The power of Spirit can alter physiological states. We see this in healing performed. We see this in prayers answered. We see this in advanced yogis who can enter such a deep state of mental clarity that they can levitate! IT.IS.TRUE. Open yourself to this reality – this is the power of the burgeoning Spiritual Human at work, because we can attain the perfection that Jesus demonstrated. And no I don’t just mean walking on water, that was merely an illustration that Matter is illusion, and that Spirit is the reality, which poor Peter was not quite ready to believe in.

No one that I am aware of, has yet ever emulated the degree of perfection and understanding that Jesus possessed. So no one will be walking on water any time soon. Small wonder, as humanity is still (very unfortunately) locked within a dense, dark prison of subjugation, of pain, of hatred, of persecution, injustice and war. This is our paradigm. And now do you see why TPTB want to keep it this way, just as the Romans wanted to keep it this way 2,000 years ago?

Water, food, the air we breathe… poison, to keep us dumbed down to our base emotions, our weakest capacity. And men behind curtains turn the wheels of the world. 2,000 years since Christ, and but for technology, how far have we developed? Not far, my friend. Not far. TPTB keep it this way for a damned good reason. They don’t want humans to unite, evolve, change… or embark upon the revolution that we are Spirits clad in Human shape and all that Jesus was we can become. Jesus wanted us to BE as he was, become what he had become… Quote the passage kreagle, I’m sure you have one that outlines that very clearly!... TPTB don’t want a population of Christs on their hands!

We can become everything that he was in heart, in mind, and in spirit, if we learn to cultivate the faith that he teaches, and the love that he embodies.

It is in us, my friend. Dormant. IT IS IN US ALL OF US.

kreagle

28th September 2012, 22:20

Star Mariner,

See… in an amused sort of way I’m a tad confused! You strike me as someone who interprets the bible very strictly to the letter, so it really surprises me that you derive a metaphorical meaning in this passage rather than a literal. Normally I’d say that was a good thing, the separation of which I spoke before, the ‘taking corners’ arises from reading everything by the letter.

But here kreagle, and mate I think you’ll laugh at this! For here is a spiritual free-thinker telling the Christian that his interpretation of scripture is not hard-core enough!! Lol.

I do believe that we can, very literally walk on water with the Power of thought – belief, if we know how to manifest it. I must think that you do believe that Jesus himself did do this right? From walking on water to curing the sick, he performed what in our day to day existence is nothing short of miracles, right? If he did not, and we are left with completely with metaphor, then the life of Jesus is reduced to what, a fairy-tale?

I submit to you, kreagle, that walking on water is NOT an impossibility. Christ could do this, not as a parlour trick, and not because of some stupid human distortion that would call it witchcraft or some other nonsense. He did it because he was so advanced in Spirit that he literally had command of Matter manifested around him. Nothing he did was outside of natural law – and yes that means Science. Parapsychology.

Radical Christians would have this as the devil’s work, which is garbage talk. For the sake of all that is merciful, Jesus did it!! Jesus showed it, at work before the disbelieving eyes of his followers. The Romans crucified him because he was so advanced in the Mysteries that he posed a massive threat to them.

Spirit trumps matter, every day of the week!

Your perception of me 'straying from my normal, literal, interpretation of the Bible' is with error, my dear friend. It actually goes much deeper, in that direction, than you can possibly realize. I knew this statement about 'walking on water' would be alarming, but it 'ties-in' with the concept of faith, so beautifully! Don't get me wrong, for I can agree with 'many' of the things you are saying, here. As with 'everything else' Jesus did while He was here on Earth, He did it 'as an example' for us to learn by. A 'lesson' was to be absorbed, for future use,....if we would only avail ourselves to the Teacher as 'willing and observant' pupils. As you, accurately, pointed out,....the 'walking on water' incident was not a 'parlour trick', ( as if He had nothing else better to do ), but a sincere 'classroom session' for all of humanity, if we will pay attention. Likewise, I think it would be 'safe' to say that Jesus is certainly not 'giving out lessons' on 'walking on water!' I believe that in His 'infinite Wisdom' He probably knew that 'water' wasn't going to be the 'guilty culprit' that would wreck havoc in our daily lives,...but that there would be, indeed, many other various 'real-life,... problems/situations' that would, and could, potentially 'sink us!' Consequently, we find it's 'these problems/situations' He is interested in, and focused upon,......and teaches us 'how to walk above, and victoriously, over!'

Did Jesus walk on water?,........Yes, He did!

Did Peter walk on water?,........Yes, He did, too!

If you will kindly look at my post, once again, and read, you will see that I am 'endeavoring to point out' how we humans fail to give 'faith' any 'substance!' We treat it, (faith), like it really doesn't exist, because we simply cannot 'see' it! Because of this, it's absolutely no wonder why we find ourselves 'sinking' in despair at the many problems/situations we all face as we endeavor to navigate our ways through this life!

I'd like to re-post some of my 'final comments' of that post, here,.......

While there are 'those' who believe that there was 'water underneath Peter's feet',....as he walked, ( for awhile), towards Jesus,.....I will submit to 'each of you' that this is a 'complete misunderstanding and interpretation of the Scriptures!'

You, nor I, ( nor Peter), can 'walk on water',.....it's an 'impossibility!'

But,.....we can, ( and Peter did),.....walk on 'faith' in His Word,.....and 'if' we 'just happen to be',.....over water,.....or......any other potential 'sinking problem/situation',....we will 'rise to the top and be victorious in Jesus' name!'

Between the soles of Peter's feet and that boisterous sea was a 'thin layer of faith',.....'faith with substance',......'real faith',.....'tangible faith',.....'you could feel it',.....'he knew he could rely upon it',......and consequently 'it held him up as he got out of the boat to walk to Jesus!' It was only 'after he doubted and took his eyes off of Jesus and viewed the storm', that the 'substance of faith' began to 'dissipate' causing him to sink and to call out to be saved.

And 'before' I comment on this,.....I want to add a 'statement from you',......

Spirit trumps matter, every day of the week!

To 'your statement', Star Mariner, I eagerly say,......Amen,....Amen,......and a 'resounding' Amen!!!

If you will 'look a little closer' at the contents of my quote, you will see that I am not 'denying the fact' that they, ( Jesus and Peter), walked on water,....but I'm simply pointing out what was between the 'sole of their feet' and that water.

In Jesus' case,...As the 'Word/God/Spirit,... manifested in the flesh',....He was fully in charge 'over His Creation', ( the 'elements and boisterous seas'), and He completely over-rode their 'properties', ( gravity and 'unstable liquid surface'), and 'easily walked upon, and over, them! The 'lesson', here, is that He 'already knew' that He would, (and could), dictate the 'terms' to Nature, and not the 'other way around!' It's this 'lesson' that He wished to 'convey' to His Creation, (you and I), to which Peter, ( to his credit), picked-up on, and 'got out of the boat!'

In Peter's case,....He simply had to accept the 'invitation' to 'come!' When the 'Word' came forth from Jesus' mouth, Peter literally had an 'open invitation' to 'get out of the boat.'It was 'faith', (exercised here by Peter), in His 'invitation to come', that caused Peter to be completely convinced that his God would 'not let him down!' He was totally persuaded that Jesus was not 'luring him over the side of the boat,....just to let him sink beneath the tumultuous waves!' Without him 'fully realizing it', Peter was placing something between the 'soles of his feet' and those treacherous waves, and that was the 'substance of faith' that I spoke of, earlier. 'Substantial faith' in the Word that he heard 'with his own ears' as Jesus invited him to 'come!' Thus,....we find that Peter had 'no problem getting out of the boat!'

Likewise, God is desperately endeavoring to 'lure each one of us' to 'get out of the boat,....and walk with Him,.....walk as He walked, in places where no else walks, or can walk!,.....walk over your problems/situations that formerly caused you to sink,.....follow in My footsteps and be victorious!

What I am about to say, here, will be 'radical to some', but I am convinced by the 'knowledge of my God', that when Jesus completed His 'walk on the water' and re-entered the boat you could have 'immediately examined the soles of His feet' and found that there was absolutely 'no water on them!'

Peter would have been 'totally dry, also' had he not experienced a 'short bout with doubt', causing him to 'begin to sink and cry out to be saved.'

This, further illustrates, the 'completeness of God's Work and Purpose!'

Not only does He desire, ( and 'will allow'), for His Creation to 'rise above and walk over, and upon, the many problems/situations of life that try to sink us all',....we find that He will 'even keep the residue off of us, likewise!'

BUT,.....for 'that', my dear friends,.....we will need to put 'substance' between our many problems/situations in life that are endeavoring to sink us,.....and that's 'faith with substance',......tangible faith,.....unswerving faith,.....in His 'unsinkable and reliable Word'.

2 Corinthians 5:7(KJV)

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

God bless you 'all',..........kreagle

Akasha

29th September 2012, 13:31

I'd like to share an experience I had which I consider to be "spirit trumping matter", but first a bit of background. Between 1999 and 2003 I was intermittently detained (for a total period of 13 months) under section 3 of the UK mental health act over my behaviour due non-compliance of an anti-convulsant/mood-stabilising pharmaceutical called Epilim. I had been taking this drug to combat epilepsy since 1987 and in 1999 I decided to stop taking it to see if I had, in fact, grown out of the condition. Whilst not having any seizures, over the next 6 months I became increasingly manic to the point where I was eventually arrested and sectioned.

Whilst in the hospital I was given all manner of anti-psychotic medication until finally being put back on Epilim, resulting in my slow but steady stabilisation until some months later the section was lifted and I was allowed home. However in the 6 months of initially not taking the tablets prior to my first admission, I gained an insight into life without them which was infinitely preferable, even if the risk of seizures and temporary mania was part of the deal. So.....within months of coming out of the hospital I stopped the med's, felt great for a short period and then went crazy again! Because of my persistent desire to not be medicated, this cycle continued repeatedly until, by the summer 2003, I had been sectioned 7 times.

Obviously being banged up in the lock-up ward for over a year in total allowed much time for pondering my predicament. The consultant was adamant that I had bipolar affective disorder and that it was about time I started facing up to that reality but as someone who grew up in an overtly christian home, although now not a practising christian, I was still open to the notion of healing in light of the miracles attributed to Jesus. It was with this in mind that I started to go within, focusing on the New Testament references to love, and in particular the phrase "God is Love" which I decided I would take literally and in totality rather than your interpretation of it in previous posts, Star Mariner. I then expounded on that concept with basic reasoning and logic, taking it as far as my mind would go in every direction I could think of and always bearing in mind the K.I.S.S acronym (keep it simple, stupid).

I ended up coming to the conclusion that if what I was now contemplating was true, it could well be my escape route out of the psychiatric system for good. So I decided from that point on and to the best of my ability, to be motivated by love in all I did starting right there in the lock-up ward. As I'm sure you can imagine sharing a living space with 12-15 other people with severe psychiatric issues offered plenty of opportunities to carry this out......or not! To start with, with each situation I was faced with, I had to constantly ask myself how love would approach that situation and then try to act accordingly.

Within just a few days, the day nurses were miraculously going against the consultant's better judgement and allowing me to non-comply with the med's and I was still managing to maintain a non-manic state within myself. The night nurses however had the reputation for being more ruthless so I decided I would aim to avoid the night time med's by going to my bedroom and feigning sleep prior to the time they were due to be dished out. I figured they wouldn't wake some one up in order to sedate them again and I was right. So approximately 2 weeks later I had improved without medication to the point whereby I was transferred to the low security ward next door.

Now of course the above testimony could itself be described as spirit, or as I prefer, love trumping matter but the scenario that followed was, in my eyes, even more profound.

I was about to go to bed for the first night in the low security ward when the head nurse asked me to come and get my night time med's. Slightly shocked that he was unaware of my regime of non-compliance, I informed him that I had been refusing them in the lock-up ward without issue and with continued improvement to the point where I was now here! The nurse, ironically a self-confessed born again christian, informed me that he had no such information and that if I did not comply and take the Epilim I would be given Haloperidol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloperidol) intra-muscularly and by force if necessary. From several previous experiences of being c&r'd (control and restraint) and forcibly shot up with that stuff, I knew he was serious.

It's worth noting at this point that Haloperidol was then (and probably still is) the go-to emergency intra-muscular anti-psychotic in all psych' wards across the UK and my previous experiences with it had always been extremely unpleasant resulting in immediate acute anxiety coupled with heavy sedation and tardive dyskinesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardive_dyskinesia).

With all this in mind I decided if I was to follow the path of love in this situation it would mean taking the shot without fear or judgement towards the nurse in question. After the injection I waited a few minutes, expecting the all too familiar dreaded waves of the drug to envelope me, but to my astonishment nothing happened! I waited a few more minutes......still no reaction. After an hour had passed, I was still feeling absolutely none of the symptoms. In all past experiences with this drug, it had seriously put me flat out, but now with this love based mindset I had managed to transmute it into something totally ineffectual.

Now obviously it wasn't walking on water but it was a profound paradigm busting experience for me and as I see it an example of love "trumping matter".
For the record, my notes were transferred the following day which then allowed my continual non-compliance of the med's resulting in me walking out of there for the last time completely drug free a couple of weeks later: an almost unheard of scenario within the UK psychiatric system.

kreagle

29th September 2012, 19:03

Akasha,

My dear friend, what a powerful and profound message you have, here! I really commend you, brother, for having the wisdom to 'turn to God' and the 'power of His love'. So many, today, turn totally in the opposite direction, trying everything 'but God's way', and with devastating results. But not you!,....and glory to God for that! The power of God is 'limitless' and our personal 'accomplishments through Him' have absolutely no boundaries,....'if' we put our trust in Him!

Philippians 4:13 (KJV)

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

I will be praying for you, brother, for your 'continued strength' and victorious results!

Your brother, friend, and servant,.........kreagle

Mark (Star Mariner)

29th September 2012, 19:24

That's a heck of a tale Akasha, I'm truly very sorry for the illness and suffering you endured here. You clambered out of a dark paradigm, with love as you ladder. Very inspiring, mate, and quite truly a very good example of love/light/God trumping all.

You also demonstrated one of the most empowering of all human virtues - strengthened within by that love - and that was bravery. What an effort it must have been to turn yourself around and get out of that situation! It is very sad that so many go into them and become 'institutionalized,' and never come out again. Surely even the sane would lose it in those psyche wards, and pumped full of horrible 'medication'. In severe cases I’m sure it supplies a necessary and merciful benefit to the patient, and some safety for the staff, but all the same there are brain-draining chemicals at work that do nothing to 'heal' the affliction in question.

The healing energy of Love got you out.

I sincerely hope that today you are perfectly well, my friend, in mind, body and spirit!

(one slight, and very off-topic thing, it was a bit difficult to read your last post Akasha as it was one long block of text. Splitting up the paragraphs with spaces makes it a lot easier on the eye. Thanks! :))

Hey kreagle and thanks for your response, and putting right my misinterpretation. ‘Misinterpretation!’ That was a good example really of the foibles of our mental constructs (me in this case!), through which all inward stimulation and information is thereby filtered.

I misunderstood, my friend. I had really thought for a moment that you perceived the deed of walking on water was merely a metaphor… But I see now that you were alluding to a very enlightening, yet subtle, extra meaning! Deduced with great wisdom, and expertly expressed. I tip my hat, sir.

It is patently clear in your example, that yes, in lieu of the actual demonstration of this tremendous feat, illustrating to us backwards humans that Spirit can easily conquer the ‘matter’ in which our nuts-and-bolts world consists of, we are provided with another lesson which also shows us that with faith in the Power within us, distended through God-Source, we can rise above anything that stands in our way.

What I am about to say, here, will be 'radical to some', but I am convinced by the 'knowledge of my God', that when Jesus completed His 'walk on the water' and re-entered the boat you could have 'immediately examined the soles of His feet' and found that there was absolutely 'no water on them!'

I think you’re also quite right here. And I see nothing radical about it. In many ways you are correct in saying that ‘it is impossible to walk on water’, or any Newtonian fluid structure, because of the volume of water displaced by someone trying 'to walk on it' – just the simple laws of buoyancy at work. So there are two possibilities. Either some sort of transmutation, in which the water itself was changed at the molecular level to be something non-Newtonian (such as liquid of high viscosity), or more likely that Jesus simple floated – levitated just above the water level, giving the impression that he was walking on it. In this instance both his and Peter’s feet would have effectively remained dry..

kreagle

29th September 2012, 21:27

Star Mariner,

Let me say, first, how grateful I am to your 'thoughtful and loving' response to Akasha! There's a saying we use around our Church, ( in a good-natured way), that says, (....and I will 'paraphrase' for clarity),...."Akasha needs our prayers,....and we need the practise!!!' I have told him that I will certainly 'pray for him',......and I equally 'invite you to practise with me!'

So there are two possibilities. Either some sort of transmutation, in which the water itself was changed at the molecular level to be something non-Newtonian (such as liquid of high viscosity), or more likely that Jesus simple floated – levitated just above the water level, giving the impression that he was walking on it. In this instance both his and Peter’s feet would have effectively remained dry..

How about a 'third?' And 'this' is not just a 'possibility',.....but a 'reality!'

When Peter said,...."Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.",.... Jesus responded with 'one word',......'come'. I submit to you, Star Mariner, that it was at that 'precise moment' when He 'issued the invitation to come' that He literally 'threw out a life preserver' from His mouth, (the 'Word, come), to Peter! Not one to 'put around his waist',....but 'one to stand and walk upon!' That 'one Word,....come' was His Word,.....God's Word,......and when Peter allowed his faith to really gain some 'substance', he 'got out of the boat' and 'stood and walked upon the Word of God!' You can stand and walk upon the Word of God, my dear friend.

That's the 'substance' I've been talking about, my friend. A 'type of faith' that has 'real substance' by an 'unswerving belief and confidence' in God's Word. One you will 'stand upon' in the 'midst of a raging storm!'

And 'this type of faith' will 'keep you completely dry and on top of your problems/situations!'

I, personally, hear the Lord Jesus,......and He's still saying to us,......"Come!"

Your brother, friend, and servant,......kreagle

Akasha

30th September 2012, 15:35

Thanks for your thoughts, both of you. In answer to your question, Star Mariner, I've never been better........so definitely don't feel sorry. The whole thing was a game changer I couldn't be without................and if I ever write that much again I'll definitely take your advice and break it up a bit.

Mark (Star Mariner)

30th September 2012, 23:11

Akasha, very glad to hear this my friend. May it long continue!

Heya kreagle, and thanks for the response! I think what I was trying to do was bring a tangible aspect to the table in order to describe and thus fathom what physically ‘happened’ with this story of walking on water, what processes were actually at work. Because even when we talk about ‘the Divine’, it need not be mysterious, supernatural, or even immeasurable, because there is a tangible and rational process in everything.

If you can indulge me I really do need to speak to you about this, and anyone who would like to listen…

I preach nothing… please know I preach nothing. I am merely voicing, merely echoing the shapes and patterns of my own perception filters… But in doing so I want to open up a bit more about myself, my own personal beliefs – some in variance with religious doctrine – so you have a better understanding/grounding of where I am coming from for our future, continued discourse. Know that I speak with the best of intention, and only to ‘throw in my lot’ and submit the philosophy which my life has submitted to me. The following may not sit well with your own understanding. And that is absolutely ok. But there maybe something in the following which might ‘resonate’ with your truth, if you take a moment to consider these possibilities…

Because there are very important aspects here that need to be explored. If you take them on board, kreagle, my dear new friend, there might be a sliver of new insight which will serve to show a glimmer of an even more glorious revelation of God – the All-That-Is – than you already perceive. I myself search for new glimmers every day. They are there! There is still much to learn spiritually, and still so much to share between us spiritually, between all of us here at Avalon. If there was nothing more to it than the doctrines we already hold on to, none of us would be here!

Please bear with me (and I apologise for the length of the post) this is very important.

That 'one Word,....come' was His Word,.....God's Word,......and when Peter allowed his faith to really gain some 'substance', he 'got out of the boat' and 'stood and walked upon the Word of God!' You can stand and walk upon the Word of God, my dear friend.

Of the Walking on Water theme, and the ‘Word of God’, or of Jesus, which you explained, for me it can have no meaning or any substance at all unless there is a context at work. Let me explain.

Everything that happens, or can happen, in this Universe is decreed by Natural Law. It is a grave oversight in any religious or spiritual thinking to believe that everything we are and everything that we see in this wonderful world ‘simply is’ because God ‘simply says it is’. There are Laws that determine every single cause and effect, every action, reaction, and inter-action. Without such Laws the Universe would be chaos – actually just one enormous floating blob of disorganized quantum soup.

Physical Laws create order, but the Spirit creates purpose.

As just an example, picture the Universe, if you will, as one vast, breathing, and very living organism. God is the beating heart of this organism – the Universe. DNA determines the Natural Laws I speak of that makes it function. Spirit is the blood that moves from that central God-heart within and throughout it. We, us, our spirits, our individual souls, are merely the billions of blood cells adrift in this glorious circulation.

No one, not even Jesus Christ can break Natural Law, the DNA that regulates ‘what is’ and ‘what can be’, in this Universe. Everything he did can be defined by Natural Law. Not that we backward humans can possibly understand the subtleties and complexities of these Natural Laws. We comprehend many of the fundamentals now, as described by science and witnessed in technology. Many, very unfortunately, think that certain effects ‘that they cannot explain’ are magic. To a prehistoric man, radio is magic. Quantum physics is unexplainable even to the biggest names and greatest intellects in theoretical physics… it seems like magic. But it is not. The patterns of Law therein are yet to be unwoven.

What I’m trying to say, my friend, is that Jesus walking on water, or turning water into wine, was not commanded by ‘faith alone’, or a special word spoken at the right time… It seems a ‘miracle’ to our eyes because there is a process at work that we cannot understand. He used the Power of Spirit within him (and through him) not to simply and miraculously walk on the water, or appear to do so, but to ‘change something’ about his physicality, about reality, and it was completely in the confines of Natural Law.

Perhaps, one could surmise, that with the purification of the mind and the body, and through the power of thought alone, Jesus was able to harmonize the vibration of his entire being with his surroundings, and psychically levitate across the water. This is exactly what psychic phenomena is – using the power of thought which is consciousness which is spirit which IS God!!

And it is all perfectly within the confines of Natural Law. ‘God’ himself did not ‘come down’ and make it happen, Jesus made it happen with God already present; he needed only to summon the energetic skill required for this deed, and the natural capacity which was within him – in all of us – because Spirit can overpower matter. He knew this. And he showed this.

There is nothing either unnatural, immoral, or ungodly about this phenomena, because we see it in microcosm every day. A prayer in church is answered, the hands-on healing of the sick, even the 100 lb woman who lifts a car off a child who is trapped beneath it. It happens, with the Power within us, amplified I’m sure from higher forces Beyond, through God, but it happens every single day… psychic – thought… phenomena adheres normally and naturally in clockwork precision as decreed by pre-determined Natural Laws. But it is, unfortunately, not as simple as just ‘faith in God’, or a ‘word of command’; that you can literally ’walk on the word of God’. It takes a massive effort on your own part to energetically do something like this, and it usually only happens in extraordinary, sometimes life-and-death circumstances, that allow us to tap the hidden potential.

Think of a man dangling from a cliff by a slender rope. It’s a life and death situation. If he doesn’t expend energy, physical or mental – in will, determination, belief, then he’ll fall. That’s what happened to Peter. But Jesus still needed to be there as the facilitator, he was the rope that held him up, and Peter’s was the belief that permitted him to hold on to it. But we are just Homo Sapiens you and I, and not yet the perfectly evolved paradigm that Jesus was – biologically, mentally and spiritually (that we may call Homo Spiritualis), and as a matter of course we don’t have a rope to work with, not on a daily basis. In exceptional conditions we may just surprise ourselves, perhaps short of walking on water however, but who knows! I doubt that any amount of ‘faith’ would have helped Peter walk on water if he was by himself. Jesus had to be there to hold him up, perhaps rather tenuously and by a frail strand on Peter’s part. But he wavered, he fell in, because it all just seemed so impossible to his paradigm.

Jesus may be in your heart and mine, kreagle – and it is! But there is no amount of faith we can summon, or word of command we can ‘simply’ invoke that would allow us to walk on water. If there were, you and me could walk out upon the Atlantic ocean and meet in the middle right now! We can’t because we lack the cognitive/spiritual/ and even dimensional understanding that such a feat would take. But there are some Tibetan Yogis that can produce aspects of basic levitation. But Jesus could do far more besides, infinitely more, because he was quite probably the most advanced example of Human Being that has ever lived.

To some, no doubt, what I describe here in a tangible way can certainly be classified as Psychic Phenomena – or ‘occult science’. This the Bible will frown upon, and you too kreagle I’m sure. The phrase carries a negative connotation, which is a misconception, but there is a massive piece to the puzzle of understanding which is often overlooked and unspoken by canon. I’ll explain shortly why.

If it is an occult science, then Jesus was the master of them. He showed what was possible. You won’t of course find these Natural Laws precisely defined in his teachings. 1st century peasants (for the most part) would understand it no more than many of us would. It was entry-level education. In accordance with his word they needed only to trust in him, and believe in the Power of God, and in themselves, always, and to be good, loving beings, and do the right things. The precise workings of the Natural Laws Jesus demonstrated were of no importance to them (and even if they were, and Jesus cited them in detail, then of course certain authoritative powers saw fit very early on to omit them from scripture).

As to the missing pieces to the puzzle of understanding I spoke of, here’s a good candidate for where it can be sourced. I will quote from the Old Testament here, as listed in another post regarding channeling where the ‘aberration’ in occult sciences might well have originated:

Deuteronomy 18 (as written in my Bible)

10: There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Firstly this quote from Deuteronomy, long before Christianity, is part of the ancient teachings of Yahweh, and was meant in the main to re-educate the wayward Caananites and Phoenicians from their devotion to the Ammonite God Moloch, whose practises were deeply immersed in mysticism and indeed barbarism.

I am saying that my knowledge base, such as it currently stands, says that Yahweh was not the Christian God at all! I’m sure my friend you will have no inclination to accept that as true. But listen on. These far pre-Christian teachings have been massively distorted, and revised, to ‘fit’ in with the later New Testament – it serves a powerful purpose in orthodoxy insofar as it lays the groundwork for the New Covenant of the Christ that is prophesied to come…. But, Human history as far back as you can go is absolutely riddled with meddling ‘higher powers’ like Yahweh – extra-terrestrials trying I’m sure their very hardest to ‘educate mankind’, and bring him out of the darkness in accordance with their philosophies. The earliest myth-Gods and the various pagan pantheons were of the extra-terrestrial, and many such unfortunately masqueraded themselves as God. And in the name of God did some pretty bad things!! But none were God.

Some Christians seek only to generalize in the broadest possible sense by categorizing such God-beings as simply ‘fallen angels’, or ‘devils’ in disguise. Nay, and Nay! Fallen angels and their like ARE extra-terrestrials, in that they came down from the sky as sovereign beings just like ourselves, and though far advanced of us in philosophy and technology, were still flawed beings like ourselves. In myth, legend, traditions, prophecies, cave-art, and so many numerous ancient histories, in Europe (particularly Greece and Egypt), the Far East, and Meso-American cultures, they are everywhere. Believe it my good friend. Take a look. They are everywhere.

There is info here on this very forum which talks about ‘the Yahweh group’, and what they were up to. The true God has no need of hovering clouds on the mountain, or burning bushes, or damn techno devices like the Ark of the Covenant. All ET stuff mate! The Old Testament is full of it, page after page.

The true ‘God’ has never ‘come down’ to do this or to do that. That was (and to some to degree still is!) ET theatre. The true God has never ‘appeared’ to Man, never spoken to Man, and has certainly never ‘smitten’ a man like a Zeus-thunderbolt from Heaven. All that is ET manipulation and violence – spiritual violence in a very great sense! Yup Zeus wasn’t the true God either!

The only manifestation of the true Father-Source-God was in the shape of Jesus Christ – spoken, acted, and loved through – Jesus Christ.

And so of course Yahweh was highly motivated in manipulating its creed to insist that divination and certain occult practises be banned. That’s your Deuteronomy. Because it/they didn’t want the people to see past the very curtain that they themselves had raised!

Think of how many ‘Prophets’ listed in the Bible are otherwise thus guilty of ‘heresy’ – Jesus included, if Yahweh’s mandate was the Law? I’m sure there are many Christians who cannot help but feel there are numerous strange and uncomfortable ‘variations’ (dare I even say inconsistencies) quoted in the scriptures when you compare Yahweh with the Father of Jesus. In my belief – and I stress this quite strongly – in my personal belief the two are not the same at all. This is accentuated by another agency, which I touched on in a previous post, which describes:

There are multiple versions of the Biblical text, laid down by multiple individuals, decreed and re-ordered by multiple Ecumenical Councils – politicized, culturalized… diluted.

That other agency is Man. In light of the many squabblings over the ages in the interpretation and selection of Biblical apocrypha, there is a problem somewhere. And it is due to the amount of material in scripture that does not and cannot gel. That is because it is diluted with the self-interested ramblings of what Christians term false prophets, like Yahweh, who passed themselves off as God, and are today in the minds of many, still God. From here springs many of the distortions. Please my friend this is not blaspheme. The hearts of these ‘false prophets’ are not with God-truth, and are not with God-Love… Do you not see it? The OT is a tale of puppet-strings being moved from above, destruction, persecution, and war down below. As much as ‘trying’ to bestow human thought with virtuous ideals, these ETs were immersed also in material machinations, in politics and social engineering… and control! And no less so were the later bishops and Popes who drew up the canon!

There are false prophets still today, and there will be false prophets tomorrow – just as there were plenty yesterday. Yahweh was such a one… just another one of those flim-flam men. And if he said ‘I am the One God’, then he merely repeats what was said by Moloch, or any other of the flim-flams that came before it. And after it. There are plenty around today, just look around today! None of them act with true-love in their hearts. Because the true God is Love, and True-Love does not judge, True-Love does not terrorize, ruin, and smite. The True-God-Love never has, and never will.

Jesus Christ – One mouth, One truth, One love. Disregard everything else mate! including the OT!

That brings me back to these Natural Laws, and those things beyond what we currently understand of them which some call ‘occult sciences’. Not a word do I recall from Jesus that tells us divination etc should be banned. And of occult sciences there are both White polarities/applications and Dark, just like any other science! The dark… well that goes without saying. It is negative. But if anything like levitation, divination, psychic phenomenon etc – like walking on water – is at all possible it is because it’s perfectly natural and consistent with Natural Law, but should of course only be demonstrated with love and the very best of intentions, just as Jesus did. It is not evil.

In the first instance I follow that school of thought that insists that the Old Testament God is not the God of New Testament. The two ‘Gods’ (thus books) are utterly in opposition. Because one is God, the other is not. This I will always continue to believe. It is so patently clear. My interpretation of God is in line only with what JESUS alone revealed: that he is a God that loves; does not anger, does not judge, and does not Smite. And he is universal, and far more than the anthropomorphised God of the OT. Whatsoever ‘being’ the Old Testament God is, it is not the True God, and it is not my God. And I do not believe it is Jesus’s God either. And this conundrum is at the root of all biblical distortion, and all the divisions and false comprehensions that have ever, ever arisen over the last 2,000 years.

[long breath]

I’ve probably totally lost you with all this, and I am dearly sorry friend! But when I seek pick up the Bible, seeking the pure spiritual truth through the actual nitty-gritty of ‘truth-speaking / truth-teaching’ I need look only to that which is spoken through the mouth of Jesus Christ himself. Everything else is a disfigurement of human ego (or extra-terrestrials long ago, who, although they probably had the best of intentions, they ended up doing the right thing in the end – they packed up and left: mission not accomplished!).

If you have any response kreagle, I would love to hear from you. And I mean you, dear friend, rather than the recited (scripture) words of other men… even Jesus, on this matter – I would love to hear from you, your own thought and mind, and heart…

All the very best.

kreagle

1st October 2012, 04:41

Star Mariner,

If you have any response kreagle, I would love to hear from you. And I mean you, dear friend, rather than the recited (scripture) words of other men… even Jesus, on this matter – I would love to hear from you, your own thought and mind, and heart…

Brother, I have always enjoyed our many 'discourses', and I certainly hope to continue them in the foreseeable future. It almost appears, at this point, that a 'gauntlet of sorts' has been laid down, by the message you convey here. To your credit, I sense that you are seeking 'answers', and that you have allotted some 'room in your life' for these 'moments of truth to reside in. Interwoven in your 'many words of discourse', I have seen this 'willingness to listen', which is a great characteristic to have, but 'few' fail to give 'audience to. You have, shall we say, a 'way with words', and your 'intellectual ability' is second to none.

The 'ball appears to be in my court', now, and you are awaiting my 'return.'

The 'first thing I see', (and quite frankly it's one that bothers me, greatly), is whether you are going to allow this 'intellectual ability' to 'completely destroy you',.....or.......whether you will learn to 'harness' it so you can advance to the 'next level', or not! There is, ( believe it or not), something you can combine with that 'extraordinarily efficient intellectual ability' you possess.

I'm talking about the 'genuine' infilling of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of God, Himself!

I'm talking about the 'same experience' the Apostles,....Mary, ( His mother),....His 'natural brothers and sisters,......and the rest of His followers, ( 120 in total), had when they 'listened and obeyed His commandment' to,......"tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."

I'm talking about the 'same experience' that went 'one step further', by filling '3000 additional souls', ( after the 'original 120'), for a 'grand total of 3,120 souls' on 'day-one of the birth of the New Testament Church', as outlined and described, in the Book of Acts, chapter one and two.

And,....I'm talking about the 'same experience', that 'I,...kreagle', likewise encountered and had as I found my own personal 'Upper Room' and experienced a duplication of what those 'early New Testament Church members' experienced, also!

Star Mariner,...on February 22, 1981,....I, too, was gloriously filled with the Holy Ghost, the actual Spirit of God, Himself. I had 'purposely' put myself in a position to 'believe upon Him, as the Scripture hath said',......and consequently 'out of my belly there began to flow rivers of living water!' ( John 7:37-39)

As with the 'experience of the 120',......I, too, began to 'speak in other tongues' (another language that I had never been taught and was unlearned in). It was, as Biblically described, a glorious event and 'beyond my wildest imagination', my dear friend! It completely changed me,....gave me 'real substance' to my life,.....and consequently, today, you and 'others' get a 'rare glimpse into the life' of someone who has been 'born again!'

Now, Star Mariner, I've taken the time to share this with you, and 'others', for one simple reason. (Please do not be offended in what I am about to say, brother!) I clearly see you 'struggling with truth', my friend, and whether you fully realize it, or not, you are trying to wrap your 'carnal mind, and thinking, around Spiritual matters!' Countless 'scores and scores' of individuals have travelled down this 'same pathway' of trying to utilize their 'intellectual ability' to figure out the 'Spiritual aspects and concepts of God', only for their pathway to wind up on a 'dead end', my dear friend.

Brother, at your request, you may have 'noticed' that I have 'significantly reduced' my normal usage of quoting the Scriptures. However, at this time, I find that it is 'imperative' that I use the following text.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Brother, I can talk and 'expound' to you 'all day and all night long',....I can 'summon up my greatest oratory skills, possible',.....I can talk to you, and 'others', with the 'tongue of an angel', and you'll 'never see it if you exclude the experience of being 'filled with the Holy Ghost!'

There is no 'discrepancy between the Old Testament and the New Testament', my friend!

And your going to need the 'experience of the Holy Ghost',...in order to 'fully' see, (understand), this!

Now, did I, kreagle, 'see, or understand, all of this to begin with?'

No,....and a 'thousand times, no',....so I 'started out with faith',....until I got there, myself,......'had my own personal experience in my Upper Room',.....and 'now',.....I see it 'clear as day!'

(important and 'crucial point': You'll notice that I simply stated 'I started out with faith'. This is what, quite frankly, scares me about 'you and others', because 'most' inevitably try to 'bypass' this crucial stage on their personal quest for truth. It cannot be done,....pure, plain, and simple! Don't allow your 'intellectualism dictate the terms to you', my dear friend, Star Mariner! Take charge over your 'intellectualism' and tell it to 'temporarily take a back seat and be quiet' while you give 'faith' a chance in your life! If you will listen to me, brother, this will be the most 'intellectually smart thing you've ever done in your life!' I personally 'guarantee it', as this piece of advice is backed up with the Word of God!)

Of course, everything that I've endeavored to say, here, is predicated on 'just how clearly do you want to see?'

John 16:13 (KJV)

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

The 'other' issues you've brought up,.....(divination,....levitation,....channeling,.....psychic phenomenon......Yahweh not being God......'occult sciences', etc.), will 'clear themselves up rather nicely, and completely', if you'll listen to my advice, my dear, dear, friend!

And 'with that',.....I suppose the 'ball is back in your court!'

Instead of 'swatting it back',...I suggest that you might want to 'catch it in stride',....pause for a moment.....and 'ponder upon' the advise 'old kreagle' is giving you, my dear brother, and friend

I would love to hear from you, your own thought and mind, and heart…

From my 'mind and heart', these are my thoughts, especially for you,......I can only hope and pray that you will 'listen!' I would like for you to be able to 'see' what I see for the 'view is absolutely glorious!'

Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

GloriousPoetry

1st October 2012, 18:24

Check out Neville Goddard....his version of the bible always blows me away.....

Mark (Star Mariner)

1st October 2012, 21:24

From my 'mind and heart', these are my thoughts, especially for you,......I can only hope and pray that you will 'listen!' I would like for you to be able to 'see' what I see for the 'view is absolutely glorious!'

My friend I listen! I listen, I hear and I know truth, in all that I hear you say!

Thank you very much for the response kreagle. You know what, I know truly that the ‘Holy Ghost’ as you term it is in you, because whatever ‘discrepancies’ one may turn up in scripture, it doesn’t matter. I know it doesn’t matter, yet still, my mind is keen on discerning every facet I can uncover which relates to intellectual history, in all scripts and documents of the ancient past, so I can paint a truly detailed picture of what was, what is, and what yet shall be.

I do feel the same way as you, my friend. It doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. And the reason why it doesn’t matter? Because it takes nothing away from the glorious truths of Jesus, that both you and I share.

The Holy Ghost is in you. It is in me too. I may choose to call it something like Spiritual Light, or God-Truth or whatever language-term you want to use. But I know it, I see it, and I feel it! Don’t doubt it, my friend. Do not doubt it. Surely you can see the shape of it in my manner, my words thus far revealed in this thread. Yes here and there I steer on to intellectual tangents, lol, but that is only because there are intellectual issues as hand, as well as spiritual, that can reveal a deeper layer of reality and truth to that which we hold already.

I love mysteries, kreagle. Who does not? Mankind should never pass over a mystery and say ‘it is, because it is’. That is the path of ignorance. I am hungry for all knowledge, fascinated with all wisdom, and all the minutia contained or hidden in the obscure fabric of God-Universe. Mysteries must be solved. The rock overturned reveals the greatest prize! This is human nature, and has been since the very beginning. Stone tools would still rule the day if it was not.

I know, as do you, that the only place we can ultimately find Truth is within. But as a study, I am also interested in rationalising the without, for there outside of us is life, is other people, and the whole world in which we live. That journey of personal expansion, of penetrating the outer mystery, never ends.

On this matter, we shall vary, but again, it’s absolutely fine! Because – and I state this with heartfelt gladness – my heart is in the right place as is yours. I feel the love and the Power of Spirit and God within me. And I feel it within you as a bright and radiant warmth. And I know that intellectual concerns aren’t important to you mate, but for me there are questions, many questions still that have no answers.

Consider again the OT and NT ‘God’. Please consider these questions, kreagle my friend. Lay aside the indoctrination for but a moment, and consider the intellectual questions. Because, I submit the two together must ride hand in hand, for a man who has Spirit but no Wisdom can be duped, and thus many men have fallen into the trap of false worship.

Nahum 1

2: God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

Galatians 5

22-23: [The Spirit of God}… is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Galatians from the NT. That is my God, not this imposter God from the OT above. Can you claim otherwise?

Nahum 1 again

4: He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers

This is not God-work, unless a spiteful, wrathful God, and not the Farther of Jesus. I think this passage is purely the pre-intellectual rationalizations of early MAN, putting the forces of nature that he does not understand at the feet of a God he does not understand.

The Old God is a nasty piece of work. Check out: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

Just rationalize for a moment this ‘God’… and the loving Father of Jesus.
The God of the OT and NT are not the same being, another indication being:

Exodus 33

11: And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
John 1

18: No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

And even this statement below in Romans that quotes the OT, but there is no such statement to be found in the OT, proving that splices, cuts, edits, and additions have occurred throughout history. Basically the Bible you hold in your hands is a different document than what it once was.

Romans 10

11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I am not trying to create any spoilage for you in your enjoyment of scripture, only pointing out that there is, in an academic sense, many grave discrepancies relating to the ‘varied’ teachings in the Bible. Because they have different sources. I choose to disregard that which does not emanate from Jesus Christ. You ask me to set aside the ‘intellectual’. I ask only that you set aside religious tradition, just for a moment, and perceive the questions herein.

I submit that for Christians what holds the Old Testament and the New together is the stubbornness of Tradition – Christian tradition that will not let go of the ancient Torah. The latter is an ancient Jewish tradition, that is perhaps as outmoded alongside NT scripture as, say, the ancient Greek legends; of their Gods and their spurious deeds.

I mean not to offend or disparage either you, any other Christian, or the Good Book, just to point out that ‘tradition’ is a very powerful yoke that serves only to keep us in bondage. Jesus spoke to many a Rabbi who heeded the ancient teachings, and with his wisdom put them to shame.

I aspire to bring us all people together, in Unified Understanding. That can be so simply done by seeing the truth of the teachings of JESUS, and feeling the Power of God in your Heart. And there is a special Purity to be witnessed, perhaps hitherto unseen, by letting go of all the religious framework – the traditions – that weigh it down. Let them tumble I say; cast off the shackles of an ancient world long since passed away… and listen to the truth of Jesus’s words.

…Which you do! Which so many of us do. But the stalwart blinkers of folklore, and institution, so set in its way, shades us from so much more wisdom that is ours for the taking!

I will do some quoting of my own now! Consider this, now what I tell you. Another Good Book! And one close to my heart, that brings a new teaching, and new perspective, of Jesus Christ. It is not of the Bible, but see this now, and tell me this is false.

Kreagle, expand your teachings, and embrace a new paradigm! Add these to your scriptural collections! Please read these, only that I ask. Read them all, and tell me that they are not truth!

Some of my favourite lines from The Aquarian Gospel, some of them variants of what you might already be familiar with :

CHP 8, Verse 23:

The David of the light is Purity, who slays the strong Goliath of the dark, and seats the saviour, Love, on the throne.
CHP 22, Verse 27:

And Jesus said, Salvation is a ladder reaching from the heart of man to the heart of God.
CHP 25, Verse 26:

Just live as you would have your brother live, unfold each day as does the flower; for earth is yours, and heaven is yours, and God will bring you to your own.
CHP 40, Verse 7:

Jesus said, it matters not where men abide, on mountain top, in deepest vale, in marts of trade, or in the quiet home; they may at once, at any time, fling wide the door, and find the Silence, find the house of God; it is within the soul.
CHP 44, Verse 23:

This Holy Breath knocks at the door of every soul, but cannot enter in until the will of man throws wide the door.
CHP 155, Verse 16:

Death does not mean the end of life. The grave is not the goal of men, no more than the earth is the goal of seeds.

Love and Light to us all!

Akasha

1st October 2012, 21:26

kreagle

1st October 2012, 23:27

Star Mariner,

Before I attempt any answer to your latest post I would like to have a 'little more clarity', my friend.

Some of my favourite lines from The Aquarian Gospel, some of them variants of what you might already be familiar with :

CHP 8, Verse 23:

The David of the light is Purity, who slays the strong Goliath of the dark, and seats the saviour, Love, on the throne.
CHP 22, Verse 27:

And Jesus said, Salvation is a ladder reaching from the heart of man to the heart of God.
CHP 25, Verse 26:

Just live as you would have your brother live, unfold each day as does the flower; for earth is yours, and heaven is yours, and God will bring you to your own.
CHP 40, Verse 7:

Jesus said, it matters not where men abide, on mountain top, in deepest vale, in marts of trade, or in the quiet home; they may at once, at any time, fling wide the door, and find the Silence, find the house of God; it is within the soul.
CHP 44, Verse 23:

This Holy Breath knocks at the door of every soul, but cannot enter in until the will of man throws wide the door.
CHP 155, Verse 16:

Death does not mean the end of life. The grave is not the goal of men, no more than the earth is the goal of seeds.

Do you 'ascribe to the Aquarian Gospel', or are you a 'member' of this group? If not, do you ascribe, or adhere, to 'any' particular 'doctrines, dogma, etc.' from any particular group/denomination? The following should 'clear up' why I am asking this particular question.

The simple reason I ask for 'further clarity' is because I have 'twice' fallen into my 'own trap' of 'assuming something', only to be told later that I was 'completely wrong.' In 'one example' a young lady, here on Avalon, went to great lengths to 'prove her point', (on another thread), and the 'supporting documentation' she used was laced with 'atheism content, complete with a picture of it's atheistic leader'. Even after I specifically asked her for a simple 'yes,....or......not', ( about being or not being an atheist), on '3 separate occasions', she continued to basically 'evade the question'. The 'next example' had an individual doing the 'same thing', (on this thread), only this time in support of Buddhism. Even this was in light of the 'fact' the 'spiritual leader he followed', herself, adhered to the 'Buddhism beliefs and concepts'. I consequently was chastised for 'going with the obvious', and was told I was completely wrong. ( Go figure than one out!)

For 'this reason', it would be very 'helpful to know' exactly where you are 'coming from',.....and I certainly want to 'avoid any further misunderstandings!'

And I must 'remind you' that the OP, ( 'originally',...and specifically with a 'follow-up' addendum), states that this is 'not the place for a debate'. Let me further state, that our discourses, up to this point, have been 'very cordial and respectful', to which I, once again, salute you with 'much admiration!' I really, really, mean that!

Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

kreagle

2nd October 2012, 00:49

Dear Kreagle, thanks for sharing your experience of "speaking in other tongues". I trust and hope that, as with the linguistic miracle that happened during Pentecost, others of a foreign persuasion were able to appreciate your words in their mother tongue, rather than the vocal nonsense that has been taking place in pentecostal churches since the 1960s.

Acts 2. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (NIV)

Akasha,

You are correct, my friend, in that when the Holy Ghost was 'originally poured out', on the Day of Pentecost, there was 'at least 16 different nationalities of Jewish, and/or converts to Judaism, who were 'present' and 'heard them speaking' in their respective 'native tongues' and not in the Galilean dialect that they were 'learned in". They fully understood what they were saying at the 'moment of being Spirit-filled'.

One must remember, this was the 'first time' that God had imparted and 'poured out His Spirit, on humanity'. As such, He certainly wanted to make sure that everyone who was present that day, clearly knew what they were 'seeing and hearing' on that spiritually fateful day. Even today, there have been 'many occasions' where someone else was present to 'hear and understand', exactly, what was being spoken by the 'newborn believer', at the moment they were Spirit filled. However, it has not always been the case, ( nor is it today), that there just 'happened to be someone around who could understand' what the 'newborn believer was saying in their 'native tongue'. We see that, here, in the case of the ' 12 disciples of John the Baptist, ( all Jewish brethren), who were baptized in Jesus' name, filled with the Holy Ghost, and likewise 'also' began to 'speak in other tongues'. The only ones who were present for this 'glorious event' were 'themselves, besides the Apostle Paul, also.

Acts 19:1-7 (KJV)

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, [B]the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

In agreement to what you are bringing out, Akasha,........are there accounts, today, where the 'speaking in tongues phenomenon is being misused?' To that I would have to say, undoubtedly,..... yes. They also did this in 'some of the early churches', ( especially some in Corinth), and consequently the violators were 'scolded and corrected by the Apostle Paul' for doing so. This 'gift from God' is just like anything else that 'comes from God and meant to be Holy and used correctly'. Satan, and his minions, have always been around to 'muddy the waters', and to 'attempt to pollute' anything as pure as the 'gift of being filled with the Holy Ghost', actually is. If he is able to cast just a 'glimmer of doubt' on the validity of someone experiencing, and/or observing someone receiving the Holy Ghost,....then he has accomplished his mission. Sadly, he has been able to do 'just that' in the minds and hearts of many today!

But God shall not be 'mocked',...and 'genuine new births' are being recorded, daily, to and for, the Glory of God!

post update......

Dear Kreagle, thanks for sharing your experience of "speaking in other tongues".

Brother, I fully understand the 'intent of your comment',....but in reality I 'shared my experience of being filled with the Holy Ghost',.....which accompanied me 'speaking in other tongues', as the Spirit gave the utterance, signifying that I had, indeed, been Spirit-filled! The 'evidence', ( speaking in other tongues),....should never override the 'experience', ( of being filled with the Holy Ghost ). But, the 'experience',.....and the 'evidence',....go hand-in-hand, brother, in that you can't have 'one', without having the 'other', my dear friend!

Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

Akasha

2nd October 2012, 09:17

Thanks for that Kreagle, but I'm unable to see a definitive answer to my question in your last post. It's clear that in the first account of "speaking in tongues", that ability was given in order to share the gospel with people present in the vicinity who spoke foreign (but very real) languages. I would say that from that account, it is fair to extrapolate that in the Acts 19.6 reference, Paul was descibing "tongues" in the same way he did before. After all, first century Corinth was a very cosmopolitan town so this linguistic gift would, again, have been of great benefit in the spreading of the gospel in that region.

I feel that the modern day pentecostal movement's interpretation of "speaking in tongues" and claiming it as evidence of an outpouring of the spirit only serves to misrepresent the spirit and more importantly dis-empower the individual by creating the illusion that something has happened when in fact it hasn't.
It could even be regarded as blasphemy against the holy spirit and we know where that leads (mark 3.29) and rightly so, because if one is under the illusion they are not in "sin", how can they be forgiven?

I should point out that I don't, as a rule, subscribe to the Bible although there is plenty within it that does resonate with me. That said, I'm with Star Mariner with regard to the OT impostor god. Vengeance and Jealousy are very clear symptoms of fear (lack of love) and are forever irreconcilable with love. To unite the god of the old and new testament, I would have to conclude that he was an acute schizophrenic (and I'd know).
I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on how you manage to conclude that:

"There is no 'discrepancy between the Old Testament and the New Testament', my friend!

And your going to need the 'experience of the Holy Ghost',...in order to 'fully' see, (understand), this!" ...........

.........afterall, your experience of the "Holy Ghost" should have imparted discernment to you in order that you share it with others.

I hope this doesn't all sound too confrontational, Kreagle, but if you allow yourself to be questioned on the Bible within the Avalon forum, it may well lead to some challenging impasses.

kreagle

2nd October 2012, 09:37

Akasha,

I can assure you that an 'answer to your questions' is forthcoming, my friend. Unfortunately, it is 4:35 a.m. in my part of the world, right now. I don't know why I stay up so late,....but I'm going to have to get a little 'shut eye'. I can barely keep my eyes open right now.

Good evening, and God Bless,.........kreagle

Mark (Star Mariner)

2nd October 2012, 16:29

Do you 'ascribe to the Aquarian Gospel', or are you a 'member' of this group? If not, do you ascribe, or adhere, to 'any' particular 'doctrines, dogma, etc.' from any particular group/denomination? The following should 'clear up' why I am asking this particular question.

Hello kreagle my friend, first to answer your question post-haste, I am not part of a church, or a cult, or a group of any kind. If there is a group for the Aquarian Gospel then I don’t know about it, and would have no interest in knowing about it.

If I was to say I subscribed to any group at all it would be a group of one – ’me’. I carve a solitary path for myself, as best as I can in the steps of Christ. Plain and simple.

I am sorry to hear of your experience in another thread. I come neither to indoctrinate anything, or to ‘un’-doctrinate, if that makes sense. If I have come over heavily in places I am very sorry. Truly I am. Those who are blessed with a truth in their hearts are susceptible to zealousness, one of the very trappings I myself disapprove of!

The truth that you know is not unlike my own truth at all. If you could picture it as a tangible thing the two would share the same mass (the intense self-knowledge of Truth), but a slightly different shape. That is all.

I proceed from this dictum: the teachings of Jesus as they were in their most original Biblical form are true, yet they are ‘ornamented’ with other peripheral stories and materials. Much of those are steeped in ancient Judaistic mysticism. I do not mean to disparage Judaism, the tribulations of the Jewish people, or the rich tapestry of history that stretches back far beyond Christianity. But Jesus sought to steer away from those traditions, to liberate the people from the dogma by which they had been oppressed by the priesthood.

New religions, as they are shaped, do have a habit of absorbing the old ones they replace. Come to Europe my friend, in every country the various Christian orthodoxies here are absolutely teeming with old pagan remnants – cultural and mythological traditions that had to be assimilated into the whole for the comfort of the people of those times.

This happened also at the very beginnings of Christianity, in Israel, in Rome very much so, and right across the Mediterranean lands.

And that was done by imperfect Men. Jesus teaches us that ‘power’ is illusion, it corrupts men’s hearts. And when the Word of Jesus began to sweep the world ’Men’ did all that they could to ‘Control’ it, and hold on to ‘Power’. The old priesthoods of Control fell down, and new Christian priesthoods of Control rose up. With little difference between them.

Only this you need know: the teachings of Jesus is the way it is. He lays down the Laws of spiritual truth. Nonetheless, when you consider the Bible as a whole it is a highly inconsistent – at least incomplete – account, because it was transcribed and compiled by Man. And when Man stands as intermediary to God, it is as a perfect beam of light cast through a frosted window.

Jesus himself said it well, when he perceived clearly what truly sat in the heart of the early movers and shakers of the spiritual and political world:

Matt23

27-28: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

He would say exactly the same of the many spiritual and political movers and shakers today. I very much doubt you’d disagree!

It is no different with ‘New Age’ people either, who likewise scatter what was a perfect beam of God-Light by way of the imperfect mental-social-ego lens of the Human Being. Not that it’s their fault! That’s just the way we are! So caution is always advised. But we go forth always with encouragement, because we cannot help but hear the door when the truth comes knocking,

I am sorry my friend to come over all cynical. But ‘the Church is not for me’. There are Churches and Denominations and Interpretations, because that is Man at work whose ego dictates that he must control information to control the people, and in doing so garner great wealth! Consider how many ‘Men’, over a period of 2,000 years, has stood between the Jesus that lived, and the words you read of him today. Consider also the fabulous riches stored at the Vatican, whose collected wealth could feed a starving world. But it is spent on ornaments, artwork, and lavish decoration. It is hoarded by greedy men with greedy hearts. Abuse and paedophilia as well? I don't want to go there. But this is the reality of which I speak when the Church is an imperfect, in fact, dreadfully flawed ‘intermediary’ for God.

I don’t half wish Jesus himself had put to pen to paper and been the author of gospel himself. Think of that my brother! Wouldn’t that have been wonderful! What man would dare interfere then, or attempt to edit or politicize what was written?

I have no choice but to accept the reality we are faced with, and accept there is more to the real Biblical account than what was presented to us by the church ‘authorities’ centuries ago.

For me in the path I walk I am gladdened by my freedom. Because doctrine and tradition does not bind me to doctrine and tradition. I am free to explore and expand my horizons. And I say he who shuns a possibility just because it sits ill-at-ease in his understanding denies himself the prospect of new insight.

The Bible does not serve as an end for me, but a sling-shot into ever greater truth and understanding. This is where I am coming from my friend, and I would love it if you hitched a ride with me! Never shall you be sundered from the Light of God, or from Jesus who perished for the salvation of Mankind’s folly… and the redemption of our souls. It can, possibly, bring you even nearer.

Because I look around and I see new materials, new ideas, and new philosophies which aspire to augment the knowledge I have already gathered.

And what I have found in the New Age has done nothing at all to either detract or diminish the words of Jesus; in fact they are corroborated, and many times amplified.

Hold Jesus in your heart. But lay aside the trappings of dogma, and search for yourself. So to answer your original question, all this is where I am coming from my friend.

Cristian

2nd October 2012, 17:19

mojo

2nd October 2012, 17:55

Good day...I have a topic I would love to have others discuss. Early in my sighting event I wanted to share UFO observations in confidence with someone so I chose a Pastor that I respected. What ended up was a little surprising. He told me to drop it and not put my energy into it. He felt as most Christians feel, that UFO's and ET's are negative. Researchers like L.A. Marzulli, Gary Bates, and Tom Horn seem to agree on this belief as well. There is a very short list of Christian researchers that believe otherwise. Gary Stearman's UFO encounter posted below is in stark contrast. Anyway, it might helpful to hear feedback.

bxbMFG5r_f4

Cidersomerset

2nd October 2012, 18:52

Well Mojo I did not think I would end up on this thread. It sounds like a straight forward ET encounter with missing time.

Whether the encounter was because the ET's monitoring him realised the craft was malfunctioning and performed a mercy

mission or some other reason, it is being interpretated as an act of God. Just what the Plejarens are afraid of...LOL...

Interresting story anyway, however you want to interprate it...Cheers Steve..

P.S...I just realised what I said a straight forward missing time event......Theres nothing
straight forward about that! I must have been logged on to long !!..LOL..

mojo

2nd October 2012, 20:06

Thanks Steve, I'm glad you weighed in on the question as it has been in my mind for some time. It's kind of the reverse of Dr Greers stance that they are all benevolent ETs. Both seem to be an extreme.

Mark (Star Mariner)

2nd October 2012, 22:02

I thank you very much for that input Mojo. That is a very interesting video, and an important one for many a Christian to take into account. I very much hope kreagle will take a look at that and give it some serious thought, because it's a perfect illustration of the many things in particularly the Old Testament that strongly, definitively, indicate extra-terrestrial visitation.

Ezekiel's fiery wheel that came down from the sky, is a famous example. A rock solid ET encounter if there ever was one.

kreagle

2nd October 2012, 22:29

Star Mariner and Akasha,

The following statements are very 'troublesome and problematic' if taken in 'complete context' of God's Word, in It's entirety.

In the first instance I follow that school of thought that insists that the Old Testament God is not the God of New Testament. The two ‘Gods’ (thus books) are utterly in opposition. Because one is God, the other is not. This I will always continue to believe. It is so patently clear. My interpretation of God is in line only with what JESUS alone revealed: that he is a God that loves; does not anger, does not judge, and does not Smite.

and,.......

Nahum 1

2: God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
Galatians 5

22-23: [The Spirit of God}… is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians from the NT. That is my God, not this imposter God from the OT above. Can you claim otherwise?

Nahum 1 again

4: He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers
This is not God-work, unless a spiteful, wrathful God, and not the Farther of Jesus. I think this passage is purely the pre-intellectual rationalizations of early MAN, putting the forces of nature that he does not understand at the feet of a God he does not understand.

The Old God is a nasty piece of work. Check out: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../atrocity.html

The 'troublesome' part of these statements comes from the realization that our society, ( and many 'ascribed Christians'), are buying into this, very much, misaligned concept of our God.

The 'problematic' aspect of these statements should become more lucid if one would simply avail themselves to 'study the Word', for the answer to this 'perceived discrepancy' lies neatly nestled within the Scriptures, my dear friends. While some, ( actually, too many), are satisfied with a 'thumbnail' picture of God, ( of their own 'making and desires'),........we find that the 'seasoned believer' will go much deeper and require, ( and accept), a 'complete profile' of God, and not just a 'snapshot view of Him'.

Nobody knew, or understood, the 'complete profile' of God better than the Apostle Paul as indicated by this response, by him, to the Church in the Book of Romans.

Romans 11:22 (KJV)

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

( Notice that 'this is a New Testament quote',......and not from the Old Testament where many are seemingly having their problem, from.)

Paul is accurately telling us, ( along with the Church in Rome), to behold, or look, at the 'entirety of God',....( the goodness and severity),...and for us to not just look at Him from the 'angle in which we choose to view Him from!' This is a 'complete profile' of our God,.....who has a 'good side', ( one that everyone 'eagerly gobbles up' and ascribes to,........and He also has a 'severe side', ( one that many simply 'refuse to accept!') It's here, that many are given over to a 'form of idolatry', (whether they realize it, or not). In 'refusing to acknowledge and accept' God, in His entirely, they, in essence, are getting out their own 'individual paint brush' and painting a 'version of what they want, or desire, for their personal God to be'. Anytime,.... and every time,.... one begins to 'mold, or remake, God into something other than what He already is',.....that's exactly, and precisely, the definition of 'idolatry!' You cannot make your own God!! Those who do will find that their 'handy-work' will, likewise, 'wind up on it's face, mutilated and destroyed' just like the Philistine's god, Dagon, did! ( 1 Samuel 5: 1-7)

To those who simply cannot get beyond the 'God is love 'only' syndrome', and cannot understand, or accept, God in His entirety, I simply invite you back to a day in time, when that particular 'side of God', ( love 'only'), was all that you could see. Welcome back,.....to the Garden of Eden,.....'prior' to the 'fatal bite of disobedience'. It was there, (in the Garden of Eden), when Adam and Eve walked in harmony with God's full intention for mankind, that we see nothing but the 'pure love of God' for His Creation. But 'all of that' took a drastic turn with 'one simple bite',....didn't it?

Prior to this 'fatal bite', LOVE was 'all that existed',.....and needed to exist! As long as they walked in 'harmony with God', and in full compliance to His simple Word, they, ( and even you and I today), would have never had to see, and experience, the 'severe side of God',....the one that judges,....expresses anger,.....and is even 'warlike in nature' on behalf of His people.

In light of this, is it really that hard to see 'why' God revealed His 'other side',...immediately 'after that fatal bite of disobedience' which literally rent His 'prized possession and Creation, ( you and I ), from Him? Did He not 'immediately' reveal His 'severe side' by pronouncing judgement upon the 'serpent', (Satan), and 'mankind', ( Adam and Eve)? Did 'love tell Him',.....#1) "Oh, well,...easy come, easy go,.....but I still love them and 'maybe they'll do the right thing' and come home, one day!,.....OR.......#2) did His 'love motivate Him' to put a 'series of plans together,......write, and enforce, some 'Laws',.....fight for His people, when necessary,......and ultimately 'robe Himself in flesh' for a 'date with Calvary'?

While there are 'those' who wish to 'mold their own ideology around' the 'God is love 'only' syndrome', I will gladly, and candidly, tell you that I will stay 'entrenched' with the 'full profile of God'. The 'goodness and severity' of God tells, and reveals, the whole story, if one will avail themselves to the entirety of God's Word. I sure don't want to have my God to wind up 'face down', and I'm confident He won't if I will 'leave Him alone,....accept Him as He is,.....and keep my 'creative hands and ideologies off of Him!' As long as I do this,....He will remain 'erect and entrenched in my heart!'

Isaiah 40:8 (KJV)

8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Star Mariner,

My friend, there is, no doubt, a good deal of 'truths' that you are 'hitting upon', but I'm afraid you are, unfortunately, guilty of the proverbial,......'throwing the baby out with the bath water', also. Dismissing the 'God of the Old Testament', and failing to understand, or accept Him, is grievously problematic, my dear, dear, friend. Even though my post, here, is somewhat lengthy, it still cannot adequately explain the 'fullness of the mysterious God we serve and all of His complexities!'

I will always endeavor to 'enrich my knowledge of God', brother, but never without first comparing the 'new-found knowledge' with the 'Word of God'. While there are great numbers of individuals who try to 'validate the Word of God' with other material and/or documents,......I personally do the 'exact opposite',....in that I first 'validate the material/documents......'by the Word of God'. That is my 'plumb-bob, or plummet', my friend, and assures me that everything is going to 'line up perfectly, from a Scriptural standpoint'.

There are many things, brother, that we are just going to have to,.....'agree to disagree', and the God of the Old Testament 'issue' that you keep bringing up is definitely in this category.

I have many 'other' things that I will be expounding upon in the future, my dear friend.

Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

Kristin

2nd October 2012, 22:39

Mark (Star Mariner)

2nd October 2012, 22:53

kreagle

3rd October 2012, 03:18

Kreagle,

I do not think that anyone is stating here that possible Alien influence on the Bible depicts their desire to worship Aliens themselves. It's a good conversation to have, but be aware of the difference.

As to the rest, these are serious questions. Though it may be troublesome to you. I can see you are doing your best to reply from your own perspective, and I commend that as well as all of the very well thought out inquiry.

Your Quote: "There are many things, brother, that we are just going to have to,.....'agree to disagree', and the God of the Old Testament 'issue' that you keep bringing up is definitely in this category." - Very well said, and thank you.

From the Heart,
Kristin

Kristin,

Thanks for 'looking in', and I hope, and would like, to see you contribute to the thread, yourself, as you see fit. When I make reference to the word 'troublesome', I am strictly making that statement, in that, I'm 'worried about any possible damage a person might be doing to themselves'. It is my 'nature' to be concerned for 'others',.....especially when there are those who do not understand the full scope of their actions. I can assure you that I'm, personally, fine,.....but it 'never has been about me', but for 'them!'

To mojo,

As far as the 'ET discussion', I've already covered and expressed my 'views' on this topic back on page 2, post #26, ( of this thread). to seeker1972. I will re-post what I said there. Of course, this can be discussed in greater detail, if this is the general consensus of everyone here.

Here is the link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48678-Bible-Topics-and-Questions&p=541935&viewfull=1#post541935 .......and the post

kreagle, I'll leave the reincarnation stuff alone for now, unless there are others who express a desire to expolore that some more. You're answering the way most christian evangelicals do, so there's no point in pushing that topic, but I decided to pop back on and get your take on something else as I'm very curious about your thoughts on this one as well. It has to do with ET's. The more I have learned over the past two decades, from a lot of different directions, has pretty much convinced me that there are lots of different races from lots of other places. Once I started to think this, I had a problem, because you won't hear many priests talk as if that is a possiblity... Is there room in the bible for us to be one of thousands of races spread all over the universe? Is there room in the bible for the notion of multiple "dimensions"? Because when I think about the possibility of a 4th or 5th dimension where there could be other beings reaching into third dimension to assist us, I automatically relate that to what we describe as angels. How about you? Ever read any good ET books, or watch a good Ancient Aliens show and get convinced?

seeker1972,

Finally back, and now able to give you a more 'in depth answer', or my take as I see it, on the 'topic called ET's'. As I alluded to, earlier,.....I know 'something is out there', in that there are way to many credible sitings, and evidences, from a wide variety of people. The calibre of people who have come forth to testify, basically convinces me that they are not just 'making this up'. 'Everybody' associated with these sitings and events cannot possibly be "all" lying, of that I am quite convinced. As I told someone before,.....I, personally, have never seen an UFO, alien (ET), myself,....but I also have never actually seen a 'tornado' in person, either!,...( just video footage, only). Just because I've never actually 'seen a tornado with my own eyes' doesn't mean that they don't exist,....for they certainly do, in that I have personally witnessed the devastation that they leave behind! Yes,.....something is out there,.....but what?

I have covered this 'topic', in some of my previous posts, but will gladly do so again,.....drawing from my understanding of the Bible.

Simply put, these 'entities' are nothing more than the 'fallen angels', who were cast down to the earth, along with Lucifer (Satan),...when he endeavored to 'exalt himself' and said,...."I will exalt my throne",......and,......."I will be like the most High". (Isaiah 14:12-15)

They are ED's,....(extra-dimensionals),.....not....ET's., and their 'agenda is to deceive mankind', my friend.

Deception is their game,....and they are very good at it!

(point)

Just how successful do you think they would be,...."if" they were to readily admit that they are , indeed, ED's, (demonic entities,...."fallen angels"), like they really are and have been from the very beginning?

By posing to be something that they are "not",...ET's...., they are then able to accomplish their "agenda",.....that is to ultimately "rend souls away from God".

They also know that the "ET" appearance and phenomena is something that "we" humans will "buy......hook, line and sinker"! This has been an "extremely easy sale" for them over the last "several thousand years".

As with any "sale",........"BUYER BEWARE"!!!!

Is there room in the bible for us to be one of thousands of races spread all over the universe?

There is 'plenty of room in the Bible for us,....and ED's',.......but from a Biblical standpoint, I can find no room, or place, for ET's.

Let me explain........

You see,......."us",......and the "fallen angels", (or ED's),.....can easily be found and accounted for within the Scriptural Texts,...the Bible.

A "ET standpoint",......(from another 'planet, solar system, galaxy, etc.),......cannot be found, at all, or accounted for within the Scriptural Texts,....the Bible.

In reality, everything is Biblically, and logically, cleared up when we 'understand and realize' who they really are,....(ED's, extra-dimensionals.....or "fallen angels")!

And yes,......they are very much, REAL!

But so is 'our God'!, my dear friend!

Romans 8:31
King James Version (KJV)

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Your friend, brother, and servant........kreagle

Here is also a 'follow-up', with seeker1972, on post #32.....
Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48678-Bible-Topics-and-Questions&p=542241&viewfull=1#post542241

Krullenjongen had some 'very valuable information, and video', also, on post #41
Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48678-Bible-Topics-and-Questions&p=542997&viewfull=1#post542997

Here is another 'valuable discourse' I had with Rocky_Shorz, on post #53
Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48678-Bible-Topics-and-Questions&p=543265&viewfull=1#post543265

I think the above should give everyone a little to 'chew on' and also to indicate my 'feelings and willingness' to discuss this matter openly.

post update

To those who haven't seen it yet, there is a pretty interesting thread, just started by last50cobra, titled 'Ancient Aliens Debunked'. Even though he is 'newcomer', there appears to be some very interesting information for your 'viewing' if you care to spend the time to see for yourself. I've only watched 3 of the videos, thus far, but the contents of it sure make more sense than the 'original broadcasts' of the program. I remember watching many of these 'same programs'. I am, in no way, trying to validate this information,.....I'll leave that up to you to decide. One thing is certain, and quickly comes to my mind, is this following passage of Scripture,.......

Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?50473-Ancient-Aliens-Debunked--3-Hour-Documentary-&p=563277&viewfull=1#post563277

Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Even the 'best laid plans and concepts' of mankind seem to easily come 'tumbling down' when they are not founded upon absolute truth.

John 17:17 (KJV)

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

Cristian

3rd October 2012, 04:00

kreagle

3rd October 2012, 04:16

And I must 'remind you' that the OP, ( 'originally',...and specifically with a 'follow-up' addendum), states that this is 'not the place for a debate'. Let me further state, that our discourses, up to this point, have been 'very cordial and respectful', to which I, once again, salute you with 'much admiration!' I really, really, mean that!

Hi kreagle,

How can you have a thread on a FORUM where you ask people not to debate? Isnt the whole forum idea, from ancient Rome , by definition a place to debate?
I respect you for sharing your views, I think you are doing a great thing, and the Bible does have a lot of wisdom for all of us.
But, every time someone takes things a bit further, every time they want you to step into their world and imagination...you refuse.
You dont have to agree...but you can go with the flow and see where that goes. Just out of curiosity...

Chris82,

Good to see you again, brother! You know that the 'debate issue' has been more than 'adequately addressed', here, my friend. I fully understand you are 'chomping at the bits' to have your debate, but let me provide for you a 'small snippet' from the OP addendum, brother.

'Debates',....never seem to follow the guidelines of 'respectability' and often wind up defined as follows,...."a debate is two teams with Boxing gloves waiting for Jerry Springer to ring the bell...".

I will not 'bludgeon you, ( nor anyone else), over the head' with God's Word,......pure, plain, and simple.

God's Word is not to be debated, in that,......It says what He means,....and He means what It says. You either believe It, or you don't. I think you have made it 'abundantly clear' that you disagree with a great deal of It,.......while I do not, and won't.

We will have to 'agree to disagree', brother, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to carry on other 'productive conversations!'

As you can see, Star Mariner and myself have been involved with various 'discourses' that haven't exactly come out of the 'same mold', but we've been able to 'fashion together' some productive and fruitful discussions, nonetheless. This 'civility is what I expect for this thread',.....and especially for His Word!

You tried to 'disguise your intentions', originally, but upon further questioning you finally 'came clean' with your 'real motive for a debate'. You even re-enter this thread with this 'same mentality', brother, by still referring to it, as a 'debate!' Consequently, I see quite a lot of difference between Star Mariner and yourself, to this point. I would like for you to prove me wrong, brother!

Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

kreagle

3rd October 2012, 05:26

kreagle,
I understand that from a Biblical standpoint you find no room and place for ET's.
But from a personal point of view, what do you think when you look at stars on a beautiful summer night? Do you ever wonder?

Chris82,

Brother, as I've pointed out in my reply to mojo, and seeker1972, I've never personally seen an UFO, but I know 'something is undoubtedly out there'. There actually 'was' a time in my life, many, many, years ago, when I 'internally questioned myself' as to what was going on in outer space, but I no longer have any 'unanswered issues' on this phenomena. To me, everything about the 'alien theory' has all the 'hallmark traits' contained in the deceptive nature of 'fallen angels'.

Love and peace,.........kreagle

kreagle

3rd October 2012, 07:37

No worries kreagle and there’s no hard feelings at all on my part for any of it. I enjoy these discussions, no matter the outcome, and no matter the differences of viewpoint between any of us.

I shall offer a couple of brief retorts though:) One being in light of Paul's statement: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God. My main objection is that it came from Paul, rather than Jesus, and I would very seriously question that Paul understood the true nature of God better than Jesus did.

And secondly, the word 'Severity' was drawn from the old Greek rendering of the text, and that word was "apotomia". The use of this word is generally figurative, and it means 'decisiveness'.

A word, such a small thing, and an ideology is thus coloured, in some, forever…

Sorry if I'm being a pain, but it just illustrates again the earlier point regarding versions, renditions, translations and re-translations. Heads up matey, but sometimes what you see, what you think, and what believe, is not actually what you think it is.

Star Mariner,

I'm not sure you realize, brother, just what you are actually 'accusing Jesus of, here!' This is tantamount to you saying that,...." Jesus doesn't know what He's doing!"

It was Paul, ( named Saul, then), who literally got a 'first-hand' look, (and experience), of God's severe nature, when Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus with a 'blinding light!' As I said, earlier,....if anyone understood the 'complete profile of God', (including His 'severe' side), it was Paul, (Saul)! The entire account of this is in Acts chapter 9, verses 1-20.

Jesus took 'severe measures' to 'get the undivided attention of Saul' that day,....because He had a 'mission for him'. Strange as it might seem that Jesus would use the 'very one' who wrecked such havoc in the church, (Saul), our Lord, Jesus, had to go, one step further. This step included convincing Ananias, ( another disciple), to take 'blinded' Saul in,....and lay his hands upon him that he might receive his sight,....and for what reason?

Why?,....because he, (Saul/Paul), was a 'chosen vessel of God!'

Acts 9:13-16 (KJV)

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Star Mariner, not only did Jesus put a 'calling on his, (Saul/Paul's), life' but he literally backed up 'his calling' with many infallible proofs, with a great deal of tremendous miracles! ( Elymas blinded Acts 13:11, Lame man cured Acts 14:10, Damsel with spirit of divination Acts 16:18, Eutychus restored to life Acts 20:10, Viper's bite Acts 28:5, Father of Publius healed Acts 28:8, just to name a 'few')

In light of all of these 'miraculous events' at the hand of Paul, I ask you to consider this passage,......

Hebrews 2:3-4 (KJV)

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

My 'whole point' in bringing this to light, Star Mariner, is to specifically highlight just how 'Spiritually endorsed' Paul, ( and the 'rest of the Apostles'), actually was/were.

I submit to you, and everyone else, here, that when the Apostles spoke, or acted, they were specifically 'backed up' by God,....our Lord, Jesus Christ, Himself!' He specifically 'endorsed and backed up' their words, and deeds, just as if He was still on Earth doing them Himself!

I will be 're-visiting' this 'extremely vital point' in the very near future, Star Mariner, my brother and friend. It's more important than you can possibly realize. There is 'purpose and design' in everything that our God has put, and will put, in motion.

As far as the Greek word, 'apotomia', ( for 'severity'), literally meaning 'decisiveness', since when does 'decisiveness' not normally, ( more often than not), require a 'quick and severe response?' Is it not 'decisiveness', ( and 'very quickly'), we employ when we have become distracted,....begin to run 'off the road',.....requiring 'severe measures' to wrench the vehicle back on the road? Another descriptive term for 'apotomia' is literally 'sharpness', which even better associates itself with the concept of 'severity', my dear friend!

'Now',....can you begin to realize why I stated that you may not realize what you are actually 'accusing Jesus of?' This would completely 'clear itself up' and reach a totally lucid state, if one might acknowledge 'just how anointed these Apostles actually were,...and why!'

As 'always',...your brother, friend, and servant,......kreagle

Akasha

3rd October 2012, 13:41

Kristin

3rd October 2012, 14:46

Kreagle,

Thank you for your response. Your perspective is understood as it is clear where you are coming from: Quote: "especially when there are those who do not understand the full scope of their actions. I can assure you that I'm, personally, fine,.....but it 'never has been about me', but for 'them!'"

I am sure that you understand that from another perspective the information provided by others is to help YOU gain a wider perspective, and to many YOU do not understand the full scope of your actions. So it's a clear juxtaposition. This will not be resolved here on this thread, however, what I commend is the ability for all parties here to agree to disagree with each other as each case is stated. That type of communication (allowing EVERYONE to have the right to express their own opinion in a civil manner and with love) is highly regarded here.

It is obvious that you come form the standpoint that the Bible stands on it's own and is a pure and divinely inspired work that includes no mistakes. I do not agree with this opinion personally, however, I do support the positive inspirations that the Bible has instilled in many. Each to their own. However, the opposite is also true as all things can be subverted to less desirable outcomes. It is the individual person who creates this reality either way. Inspiration can be found in the Bible and in a rock... perspective has everything to do with it.

Importantly, we all have a choice to create spaces for positive communication with each other. Our inspirations will come from many sources that are available to use as tools for higher development. Dogma with each person will be varied and have a powerful effect as a guide for each. Belief systems exist in abundant various forms everywhere. It is our personal choice as to how we each use that information to treat one another.

Though your beliefs are very different then many here on the forum, it is clear that you have been inspired by the Bible to create a space that includes respect for all, whether they agree with you or not. I commend you for that, as this is not always the case.

From the Heart,
Kristin

Mark (Star Mariner)

3rd October 2012, 15:12

Thank you kreagle for your explanation here, but going back to the original question I never had any intention of accusing Jesus of anything. I think we had a muddle with that beautiful but rather defective contrivance called ‘language.’

I stand corrected. I had simply taken your statement as meaning that Paul’s experience with the profile of God meant that Paul somehow had a better understanding or closer ‘grasp’ of what God was and is, than Jesus. But I think I understand what you’re saying now… If I still have it wrong please clarify.

I submit to you, and everyone else, here, that when the Apostles spoke, or acted, they were specifically 'backed up' by God,....our Lord, Jesus Christ, Himself!'

I do have to slightly scratch my head with this statement my dear friend. Are you referring here to the potency of power of God through Jesus, or that Jesus himself was God? Because I would strongly differ here, in that my perception of Jesus is as an emissary of God on earth, and not God ‘himself’, if that makes sense.

Back to the other stuff we were talking about before, I see no reason to plough ahead with any of it between you and me, kreagle. If anybody else wants to talk about ET’s, the OT and NT God complexes etc etc, then no problem, for my part I’m happy to chat away about whatever. But kreagle I fully respect your opinion and perception as it currently stands, and I have no desire to push the issue at you, or expound upon anything we’ve already discussed.

I do hope that some time or another you think on some of these things. Though you go forward with open heart, which is a beautiful thing, see that it is not compounded by a closed mind. My only desire with bringing any of this up, was to try and make you perhaps a little ‘curious’, enough to ask a question. You have your understanding and your paradigm, I only ask now, and for the last time, that you consider ‘paradigm’ as a fluid, an ever changing thing; and our pursuit of God, of wisdom, and our knowledge of Self/Universe/Reality, is a long road with many turns, and it has no end…

Of other matters to clear up, indeed ‘apotomia’ has other synonyms. But the word ‘severity’ could have been transcribed in this passage instead as ‘decisiveness’, or even ‘sharpness’ as you say, and would convey a slightly different meaning to ‘severity’. Severity implies maybe ‘hard or even cruel nature’, whereas ‘decisiveness’ instead could imply ‘purposeful, or determined’. It is in the eye of the beholder or rather in the eye of the transcriber, and later the translator whose toil it is to transpose the text into various other tongues.

Anyway I just wanted to bring that up as a single example to illustrate that no matter what we believe was originally said, and meant, it reaches us through imperfect renderings of the down-to-earth and material nature of language, and sometimes language (just as we’ve see at the top of this post) has a habit of transporting quite assorted meanings and values.

You might well disagree… but there ya go! :)

As far as ‘debate’ goes, I’m happy to ‘discuss’ anything. But when there is a hot issue at hand, like a Bible topic on a Free-Thinkers forum, debate often quite simply ends up meaning argument. I don’t want to see any bad energy here. So by all means let us talk! But let’s leave the boxing gloves out of it.

Mark (Star Mariner)

3rd October 2012, 15:36

Though your beliefs are very different then many here on the forum, it is clear that you have been inspired by the Bible to create a space that includes respect for all, whether they agree with you or not. I commend you for that, as this is not always the case.

Kristin I thank you. Commendations to one and all! You said it very well, that even though kreagle, me, and the others all may share slightly different schools of thought, different classrooms, we all share the same Principal in Chief – and that is God/Light/Love/Spirit, whatever you want to call it.

As I said in an earlier post, the details do not matter that much. I think the incentive here is to champion our own particular classrooms, but not to say that any one has a better understanding, rather to share our respective lessons, and to sample each other’s knowledge so we can better understand our own.

That’s my desire anyway! And I do have the utmost admiration for all concerned here, because we have proven each of us that no matter how potentially controversial or passionate the matter at hand, there is a quality in all our energy that stipulates a flaming war will not and cannot occur.

Cristian

3rd October 2012, 17:18

kreagle

3rd October 2012, 18:09

Dear Kreagle, Thanks for elaborating on how you tie the OT and NT god together. I'm glad it works for you. I am, however, unable to cope with the cognitive dissonence involved in such ventures. That's not to say I, any more than Star Mariner, have thrown out the baby with the bath water. For me, the "baby" is love. As long I remain in step with that, I feel I'm on the right track.

Regarding the Pauline doctrine issue, much has been said elsewhere and some would suggest that Paul was in fact very effective in what Saul set out to do, namely going down the road of subtle usurpation of the gospel rather than direct persecution as a means to oppose the early church.

And Finally, I would still appreciate it if you could answer my question regarding your speaking in tongues experience. What language did you speak? I'm guessing that from your alluding to Acts 19.6 it was not of a terrestrial nature.
You may have also noticed that I countered the Acts 19.6 point which you put forward. What are your thoughts on my response?

All the best.

Hey Akasha,

When I was 'initially' filled with the Holy Ghost, back on Feb. 22, 1981, unfortunately there wasn't anyone in attendance, at our Church, who was able to understand what language I was speaking in. Nor did I know, either, in that I am only 'learned in the English language'. This 'experience' of being filled with His Spirit, is accompanied by the 'evidence' of speaking in 'other' tongues.

From a 'Biblical standpoint', there is.....

'other tongues',.....which is, ( as you say terrestrial), a language from somewhere on this planet, and uniformly produced when someone is genuinely filled with the Holy Ghost.

'an unknown tongue',.....which is not a recognized language used by anyone on earth, but used by God to communicate a 'message to His Church'. This deployment of His special gift requires an 'additional gift', and that being someone who has the 'gift of interpretation' to relay to the Church what is being said by His Spirit. Paul speaks of this, at length, in 1 Corinthians chapter 14.

I feel that the modern day pentecostal movement's interpretation of "speaking in tongues" and claiming it as evidence of an outpouring of the spirit only serves to misrepresent the spirit and more importantly dis-empower the individual by creating the illusion that something has happened when in fact it hasn't.
It could even be regarded as blasphemy against the holy spirit and we know where that leads (mark 3.29) and rightly so, because if one is under the illusion they are not in "sin", how can they be forgiven?

I should point out that I don't, as a rule, subscribe to the Bible although there is plenty within it that does resonate with me. That said, I'm with Star Mariner with regard to the OT impostor god. Vengeance and Jealousy are very clear symptoms of fear (lack of love) and are forever irreconcilable with love. To unite the god of the old and new testament, I would have to conclude that he was an acute schizophrenic (and I'd know).

In connection to your quote, here, I'm not sure that I would ever be able to adequately answer, ( to your 'satisfaction'), your question and response to the account in Acts. 19:6

The '12 disciples of John the Baptist' were, quite simply, filled with the Holy Ghost in the 'same manner' that occured in Acts 2:4, Acts 8:17, Acts 10:46.

Quite frankly, Akasha, your response is totally in-line with the many other responses I have heard by people who have yet to 'experience this phenomena of being filled with the Holy Ghost.' This line of thinking, accompanied by the evidence in Scripture, becomes very problematic to most, because it highlights a deficiency in one's personal walk with God that needs to be addressed and corrected. As you candidly point out,....."that I don't, as a rule, subscribe to the Bible". This only exacerbates the problem because one simply cannot see, or understand, that which they don't believe in, to begin with.

I've answered your question, but I'm, currently, doubting that you'll be satisfied with it's content.

Love and Peace,.....your brother,.....kreagle

mojo

3rd October 2012, 19:19

Hi kreagle,
I appreciate your response and it was the response the majority of believers would share. The Gary Stearman video was presented to show a supporting view held by some, including myself. I want to propose that there is room in the equation for angels or benevolent beings (beings that were never fallen). There is good and bad throughout the universe and some are seeking after the mysteries of the Creator. I say some and not all. My own observations showed love portrayed by them as love can easily cross communication boundaries. I don't think Fallen angels or bad ET's would hang around this energy, and if it was a facade it would eventually be seen through plus you would agree using the name of Jesus would chase fallen angels or demons away would you not? These beings could sense fear in us and if that happened they would back off. They would never act aggresive. And the plan for salvation does not mean one has to believe in ET's or UFOs. It's extra credit...lol. My point is and your not far from it in the first response you provided is that there is a wide spectrum of things out there, some good and some bad. Not all ET/ED can be one thing... peace

Mark (Star Mariner)

3rd October 2012, 19:44

My point is and your not far from it in the first response you provided is that there is a wide spectrum of things out there, some good and some bad. Not all ET/ED can be one thing... peace

Yes quite true Mojo, there is a veritable cornucopia of sightings and visitations taking place at this time, as in times far behind us. And it is to be understood that, just like down here on earth, there is polarity out there also, of both positive and negative influences.

Because a devout Christian experienced the UFO described in this video, it is an important document for all Christians to consider - to at least listen to and form their own judgement. He expresses his experience as a kind of 'miracle' in of itself, that his stricken aircraft was saved from potential disaster, by this UFO. Clearly the work of more ‘angelic’ influences, than ‘demonic’.

The whole fallen angel thing doesn't reach me at all. I do not understand this mythological construct of fallen angels anyway. These craft are machines first and foremost, not apparitions. To create them required the application of science, technical prowess in engineering, and highly advanced technology to achieve their aeronautical and navigation effects, as well as to travel from wherever they have come from. That's the basics in very lay terms, I know far more about it, and 'them' than this, and it is an irrefutable fact that they are living, breathing beings - people - just like us, who originate in other star systems and realities, and are far ahead of us in every conceivable way.

mojo

3rd October 2012, 19:49

Excellent insight my friend...I feel this is one of the most important considerations in the Oregon sighting event and why they returned to show a perspective few seldom see and learn from.

kreagle

3rd October 2012, 20:21

Kristin's last post is so spot on :)

Kreagle,

What are your views on today's church? What are your views on the Vatican?Do you think we need the church and priests to reach God?

Do you agree with the quote "Where love is , God is"?

What do you think of this quote : Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Chris

Hey Chris82,

What are your views on today's church?

As defined by the Scriptures in Acts 2:47, the 'Church' that was born on that day via the 'Apostles' Doctrine', ( Acts 2:42), is doing just fine. Of course, as in the days of Paul, and the rest of the Apostles, there periodically are 'local problems' that have to be addressed and corrected as necessary, but this is to be expected when dealing with mankind.

What are your views on the Vatican?Do you think we need the church and priests to reach God?

These 'questions' obviously belong together, but I will answer them both.

I disagree with, and categorically reject the teachings of Catholicism.

At the moment of Jesus' Crucifixion, the Vail of the temple was rent in two, from 'top to bottom', ( miraculously), signifying that mankind 'no longer needed a priest' to go to God for him, for now he was able to approach Him on his own.

Do you agree with the quote "Where love is , God is"?

With 'my concept of love',.....yes I do. Everything that God is, and does, issues forth from a complete deployment of a term called AGAPE! This is a 'level of love' that only God can fully impart, and 'few individuals' can fully comprehend, let alone appreciate.

What do you think of this quote : Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

I think that many today completely misjudge, and overlook, the true meaning of this passage of Scripture. God has never shown the propensity to base His 'handy-work' on 'outward appearances' but instead starts on the 'inside and works His way out' When this passage refers to,....'in his own image',.....I am convinced that this is specifically referring to the 'image He had in His Divine Mind' of what He wanted mankind, ( male and female), to ultimately be, and to further 'maintain that image' throughout their lives here on earth. Of course, we all know that came to a 'crashing halt' over that fatal 'bite of disobedience', don't we? I do, however, still believe that God is 'maintaining that Divine image' of His desires for mankind and that they will ultimately come to 'complete fruition' according to His, overall, Divine Plan.

At least, that's how I see it, by design of the Scriptures.

Now, would you kindly respond, and answer, your own questions, also?

God bless,......your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

kreagle

4th October 2012, 03:52

Star Mariner and mojo,

As I've said, earlier, I personally have never seen a UFO, or entity, ( ET or ED). I'm curious,....have either of you?,....and if so, would you elaborate on your experience(s)?

Star Mariner, I can understand how you might 'reject the fallen angel concept', based upon many of your 'other views'. However, your claim that 'their crafts are machines, and not apparitions' doesn't line up with many of the 'witnesses and contactees' that I've read about, coupled with a great deal of information I have viewed on videos, etc. Many of these 'eye witness accounts' testify to the fact that 'they suddenly appeared, and/or, suddenly disappeared into thin air.' According to 'them' it was not because of 'rapid speed' , going or coming, but that they appeared to be coming from a 'different dimension other than ours!'

Angels,...good, or bad,........unfallen, or fallen,......fully have the ability to do exactly this. They can 'materialize' and 'de-materialize' with ease. The 'same identical traits' you attribute towards these 'entities', ( ET's to you), apply precisely towards the 'unfallen, and fallen' angels, ( ED's in my mind). Your words, brother,......they 'are far ahead of us in every conceivable way.'

mojo, as you can see by my response to Star Mariner, I'm in agreement there are good, ( unfallen), and bad, ( fallen), angels. Unfortunately it appears that the 'fallen angels' are the ones who garner most of the attention and make all the 'news highlights', ( ie.,......abductions, deception, hybrid programs, etc.)

Love and Peace,.....your brother, friend, and servant,......kreagle

Akasha

4th October 2012, 07:06

kreagle

4th October 2012, 09:02

Dear kreagle, Thanks very much for your response regarding speaking in tongues. You have now sufficiently answered my question. I should really apologise for my "vocal nonsense" comment since in reality I don't know whether it's nonsense or not. I can only speak from my own experience on the subject, being that I was brought up in an extremely pentecostal/evangelical household which inevitably led to being introduced to these phenomena at a rather tender age. I accepted Jesus at the age of 7 approximately (it's so long ago), was "baptised in the spirit" around the age of 10 and baptised in water at the age of 12.

I have to say that the kundalini type awakening experience I had when I was 28 totally blew those previous experiences out of the water and showed them up for the contrivances they were. Not that I'm in any way implying that your experiences are also contrived: I'm not! It's just that for me, the whole ongoing speaking in tongues episode was literally a case of copying the gobbledeegook I would hear week in week out at the church from the adult members and leadership.

Akasha,

Thanks, brother, for your kind response, and gracious apology. I can 'feel your pain' through the volume and magnitude of your words. I, truly, am so sorry that you had to endure an unpleasant 'childhood experience' in regards to your religious past. I genuinely hope, for your benefit, that you won't completely jeopardize any 'future blessings' you might receive because of the 'past you might have experienced'. I'm sure your parents meant well in the 'experience' they were exposing you to, so try to remember that as you mature in life.

Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

Akasha

4th October 2012, 09:24

No pain, just awareness.

greybeard

4th October 2012, 09:41

kreagle

4th October 2012, 17:23

Mark (Star Mariner)

4th October 2012, 19:10

Star Mariner and mojo,

As I've said, earlier, I personally have never seen a UFO, or entity, ( ET or ED). I'm curious,....have either of you?,....and if so, would you elaborate on your experience(s)?

Thanks for your response here kreagle, this is the first time you’ve asked me about my experiences, and the basis of my beliefs, which I truly do appreciate. This is a big question, so it’s going to be a big answer, and a controversial one, but here goes…

Let me tell you this, first off. My beliefs are not rooted merely in what I’ve ‘read’, or what I’ve seen on youtube etc, I have had first hand experience.

I have seen these craft. Many of them. Many experiences starting in childhood, which picked up big time in 1989 and ran through to the end of the 90’s. I have seen, touched and interacted with the ‘visitors’ who occupied them, during that same period of time. Of course I know I could never make anyone believe that reality who already holds an established paradigm contrary to a belief in UFOs and alien reality. I’ve been there and done that, and there’s often nothing you can really say. But I know it was real, and no-one could possibly claim otherwise.

You know and believe what you know and believe because of a catalyst in your life that made it so. You may call it the day the spirit of God entered into you; the Holy Ghost, and the speaking in tongues, or whatever it was that was your personal revelation. But it was a personal, enlightening experience that told you: this is real.

This is how we define our reality at the end of the day. It shapes our actual awareness of things, and not merely our beliefs: it is what we see, touch, hear… experience which carries the greatest weight of all. Would you not agree?

That is the story and background of your entire Christian paradigm, kreagle, I’m sure of it. And no-one can tell you otherwise, or take any of that away from you. And don’t think for one second I doubt a word of what you say. I know it was real, because there is nothing in your belief structure of God, Jesus, and the messages he brings, which conflicts with my own.

Yours doesn’t conflict with mine, but mine does conflict with yours, as you see it, just as yours may also conflict with a Buddhist or an Atheist or whatever. As you would try explaining more to him/her of your perspective, I will try and tell you more of my own…

Star Mariner, I can understand how you might 'reject the fallen angel concept', based upon many of your 'other views'. However, your claim that 'their crafts are machines, and not apparitions' doesn't line up with many of the 'witnesses and contactees' that I've read about, coupled with a great deal of information I have viewed on videos, etc. Many of these 'eye witness accounts' testify to the fact that 'they suddenly appeared, and/or, suddenly disappeared into thin air.' According to 'them' it was not because of 'rapid speed' , going or coming, but that they appeared to be coming from a 'different dimension other than ours!'

That is simply explained by their incredible technology. First of all they can very literally ‘warp’ the heck out of wherever they are at unbelievable speed by ‘negating’ the space between two points in space, which gives the impression of suddenly vanishing. But yes they also can slip out of our perceived reality - ‘translocation’ in effect. This may be hard to grasp but our ‘reality’ is layered like an onion, with different vibrations or ‘frequencies’ – octaves – of matter, if you like. They can literally be occupying our physical space, just ‘out of phase’ with our frequency. And they will be invisible and undetectable.

So I do not deny, these dimensions exist, and there is physicality in those dimensions just like here, but the quality of the matter is different, finer, lighter, and more spiritual. Here, Earth, this is the bloody lowest of them all! Don’t confuse these other realms with the ‘astral plane’, where negative entities roam, and can on occasion be a menace! But they are disembodied – the spirits of… well, not nice people in this life who, after passing over, got stuck there, because they do not love the Light and could go no further.

But ETs. Chalk and cheese. These ETs come from higher up the frequency ladder from us. But mate even I can’t quite fully comprehend how it works, because how can a 3-dimensional brain comprehend a super-dimensional construct? It can’t.

Jesus himself appeared to ‘vanish’ after his resurrection … and then reappear somewhere else before vanishing again. He was materializing/dematerializing. But he didn’t go nowhere, and certainly he didn’t slip into some dark under-realm between appearances. He could change his vibration at will, shifting between this dimension and up into another.

Don’t Christians consider a concept similar to this in the process of rapture?

*****************************

I know this sounds confusing, because we have Jesus possessing a mental/spiritual capacity to shift, and then UFO’s which use technology. It’s easier just to imagine that the ETs down-shift their vibration in order to physically interact in our lower, denser vibration. And to function here and travel from A to B there, they use technology. I can’t explain it much better than that.

Angels,...good, or bad,........unfallen, or fallen,......fully have the ability to do exactly this. They can 'materialize' and 'de-materialize' with ease. The 'same identical traits' you attribute towards these 'entities', ( ET's to you), apply precisely towards the 'unfallen, and fallen' angels, ( ED's in my mind). Your words, brother,......they 'are far ahead of us in every conceivable way.'

Yes they are! But Mankind from a few thousand years ago obviously wouldn’t understand extra-terrestrial visitation. ‘Angels’ (fallen or otherwise) would undoubtedly be the only term he could attribute to what he was experiencing. This confused, homogenized labelling needs to be changed, refined, to see ETs as ETs, and Angels as Angels, etc.

It would be useful to classify these entities thus, to better understand:

ETs: Extra-terrestrial beings, sentient species that developed on other worlds.

Angels: Spiritual ‘angelic beings’. In the higher echelons of our own spirit world, or Heaven, indigenous to our Earth, there are a whole host of light-beings, ‘angels’ if you will, that again are far beyond our conception. But they are Spirit, and they are most definitely Positively orientated, but they are entirely non-corporeal, disincarnate, and most if not all have never incarnated here (on the Earth plane).

Spirit Beings: You and me – people, the pure essence of who and what we are in our native state, and what we return to in the spirit realm (Heaven) after death.

Astral Beings: Negative human-beings (prior to second death/shedding of the etheric body) trapped in the limbo place between Earth/physicality and the Spirit World of Light. The properties of this dark and heavy realm are in direct alignment to the nature/vibration manifested by the experiencer. In a sense: ‘Hell’. (I don’t know, but it may be that a polarized opposite of ‘angels’ exist down here. I guess that would be your ‘demon’-kind.)

EDs: Extra-dimensionals. Energy beings, including elementals, that exist in other realms, even other universes, far removed from our own. ‘Some’ could be classed of ‘ETs’ – or rather were once ETs, but have ascended beyond the need for any kind of physicality/biology/technology, and exist as pure Light/Thought/Energy.

Thus, some ETs may appear ‘extra-dimensional’ even supernatural, but that is only because they have surpassed our quality of physicality, and have attained a higher, more advanced state of ‘ascended’ existence. And it is possible to ‘ascend’ to this next level up (and there are at least 10 levels between us and ‘God’) and not be positively orientated. That does not necessarily mean ‘evil’, but instead what is called ‘service-to-self’ (ie not others – the act of holding love in for ourselves, rather than giving it freely – our world is full of those! and by no means all are ‘evil’).

If these so-called ‘service-to-self’ ETs were evil, we would not be here now talking about it. They are simply immersed in ‘service-to-self’ activities here. As far as I can tell they are harvesting Human DNA for certain attributes, then hybridizing it, and introducing the net result into their own gene-pool. These attributes (which they lack) are believe it or not closely centred around our capacity for spirituality, our indomitable strength of will, and our sense of emotion and compassion which has atrophied in their own race. Yes there is other stuff they are doing with our military. Non-interference from our authorities in exchange for technology. Which isn’t good to be honest, but there you go…

I am sure there are quite negative ones as well, negative in how you would interpret the word – even malevolent. Some talk about the Reptilians, which are to some degree kept in check by the positive ETs. I don’t know for sure to be honest. I only know about the reality which I have experienced, just as you know only about your own reality. Anything else we can only speculate about.

I have never come to harm in my interactions, I am still here. The beings I experienced have been both positive as well as… indifferent, is the best way to term it. Some have been filled with love, while others extremely clinical, scientific, unemotional, but not ‘evil’. This is their lack of emotion in action. But they have a society and a culture which developed on another planet, in another system. They manipulate science, materials, and natural law in order to achieve an end: technology, just as we do. There are living, breathing, corporeal beings, just as we are. They are not the ‘Astral entities’ – shades who flit around in the dark layers of a netherworld. They are species, they are biological people from elsewhere in the universe. They are not part of this fallen angels concept because, more than anything else, they not even ‘of the earth.’

It is so unthinkable to me to believe that we, a virus of a civilization, on a tiny speck of a planet in a remote arm of the galaxy, and amongst a host of several hundred billion galaxies, can be the sum total of THE CREATION. And that we would hence brand any other life out there (and I am sure it is teeming with it), as ‘fallen’, or some sort of demon. This is the thought of dark age superstition that knew no better. But now, we do know better.

Hundreds of Exo-Planets have now been discovered, and as science develops the number will increase.

18492

Gliese 667 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_667C_c#Planetary_system) being a typical example. Do not underplay the magnificence and diversity of our Universe.

There is nothing unbiblical or unchristian about life elsewhere in this galaxy, or even in this solar system in the shape of microbes on Mars or whatever. There is nothing in scripture that insists that ‘life’ can’t develop space technology, far more advanced than our own space technology, that would be capable of travelling to Earth to visit us. Believe me, if we had the tech to travel to the stars, we’d do exactly the same as they do. Explore. Reach out… and touch/feel/know the rest of Creation.

The biggest mistake we can make is to be so conceited as to think ‘we’ are the pinnacle, or that we are the centre of it all. Remember: billions of planets, billions of stars, in billions of galaxies. They are real. They are observable. They are out there.

mojo, as you can see by my response to Star Mariner, I'm in agreement there are good, ( unfallen), and bad, ( fallen), angels. Unfortunately it appears that the 'fallen angels' are the ones who garner most of the attention and make all the 'news highlights', ( ie.,......abductions, deception, hybrid programs, etc.)

Here we come to the crux of it… The positive ETs are only able to assist in subtle ways. You will not believe this one iota… but if it were not for them, we would not be here now, my friend. We would have annihilated ourselves in nuclear horror perhaps decades ago. Check out the many, many instances and testimonies of military personal who have witnessed and recorded ‘UFO’s tampering with missile silos and bombs tests etc. They are saying to the evil men in our world: ‘no you don’t! We will not allow you to harm this world!’ and ‘We are watching!’ And they are. We owe much of our continued survival in this the most perilous phase in our entire history, to them.

And where is God’s part in this, Jesus’s, the angels? Consider why don’t you that the positive ET’s are performing a mission on their behalf. Ezekiel himself would claim no less…

Akasha

4th October 2012, 19:30

Dear Kreagle, as a vegetarian I would respectfully like to share some thoughts on the topic of diet. I know it became rather heated some pages back but please bear with me if you will.

Firstly let's look at three different versions of Genesis 1.29

King James Version: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

English Standard Version: And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

New International Version: Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

Now it is clear from all of the above versions of Genesis 1.29 that the pre-fall diet did not include meat. No debate there and certainly no sandwich references.

With that in mind I would like to share my thoughts on Isaiah 65.17-25. For those that don't know, the context of Isaiah's prophecy is with regard to a new Heaven and a new Earth. Whilst he does not prophesy specifically about the new Earth diet for humans, he presents a clue in the first half of verse 25 by prophecying that the animals will return to their pre-fall diet when he says that "The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox." (NIV)

Now your comments with regard to Isaiah 65.25 were:

"Sounds like there's going to be a 'complete dietary change' to me, in reference to what we read from Isaiah's prophetic vision, doesn't it? This should make you 'very happy',....and I am, very much, looking forward to it myself,.....especially the 'peaceful conditions' that will usher in along with this!"

Kreagle, I submit to you that the vegetarian diet is a very important "peaceful condition" in the ushering in of the new Earth. I'm sure I can speak for most if not all vegetarians when I say that it is a peace-inducing diet. The carnivorous diet is obviously based on violence rather than peace.
With that in mind I would especially like to thank you for your above comments because it shows a willingness, when the time comes, to return to the pre-fall diet.

In light of the above we are faced with a very important question: when will that time be? Will it come when we, as well as turning our lives around in other ways, return to the pre-fall diet based on the recognition that it is one of the active precursors in a palpable, tangible transition to the New Earth which Isaiah spoke of or will that time come about when the divine wand is waved, the heavens are opened and the rider on the white horse descends?

In my eyes a return to the Edenic state will not happen with us looking up into the clouds and waiting faithfully and patiently for the second coming of Christ. Most if not all biblical scholars would agree that Revelation is there to be decoded, not taken literally. I'm sure you yourself have your own favoured interpretation of that book. With that in mind, I respectfully propose that the new Earth will be brought about by a critical mass of people who, above all things, have decided to choose love and have aligned themselves with all the ramifications of that decision.

Now if you are "very much, looking forward to" that dietary change yourself, why wait?

All the best.

greybeard

4th October 2012, 20:09

Some say that Kundalini awakened is a great blessing and that it is the Holy Spirit moving within the body.
When that happened spontaneously to me I had no knowledge of Kundalini, I had not even heard the word Kundalini, so it could not have been influenced by the experiences of any other
The awakening brought great peace and quietened a previously noisy mind, that is a marvellous gift in a troubled world.

Chris

Hey greybeard,

Long time, no see, brother! Great to hear from you again!

I would be very interested in your testimony, or what exactly happened and transpired when you had this 'experience' in your life. How long ago was it, and how old were you at the time. What had you done, or measures had you taken in order to 'set yourself up' to receive this 'experience'? What 'manifestations', ( mental, physical, or spiritual), occured to signal to you that something 'profound' had taken place? Could you elaborate and explain precisely what you underwent in clarity, brother? Since you relate in your post, here, that you had never heard the word, 'Kundalini', and 'had no knowledge' of such, how did you know, ( or who told you), that this is what 'happened to you?' You do mention the term, 'Holy Spirit', so I'm curious as to whether 'this', in reality, is what occured in your life, and you, perhaps, just didn't 'know any better!'

Love and Peace,.....your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

Hi kreagle
I will do my best.
This link covers a lot.
http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/kundalini-liberating-force-discourses-questions-and-answers-and-views-IDK142/

Dr David Hawkins (see obituary here http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=562640&viewfull=1#post562640) a member of the Episcopalian church commented that Kundalini could be compared to The Holy Spirit.

The personal point.
When I was 46 thats twenty years ago, I was kneeling on a meditation stool when all of a sudden my body started to rotate from the waist-- my forehead nearly touching the floor--- I knew I had not made this happen-- I stopped it and the body rotated the other way--- all accompanied by a very pleasant feeling-- no fear.

When meditating I was beginning to get a tingling on the scalp and a strong pulling at the forehead and a feeling of brushing on my cheeks very gentle and loving--- there was also a feeling of energy moving up my spine.

I had several spiritual friends, some went to Yoga- some just meditated. I shared what had happened and one said that sounds like Kundalini. He knew a person in London who had spent time studying the subject.
I phoned him and he sent me a news letter which had ten symptoms of K awakening I had 6 out of ten.

To cut a long story short I went to the ashram of the author of the book in the link above.

While there I had some amazing experiences--- filled with overwhelming love for everyone there-- states of bliss.
When I got home I thought oh well that was just because of being on the ashram but no, states continued in or out of meditation.

By accident I found an ability to heal had been gifted to me.
I was sitting in church with a friend of my aunts at aunts funeral--- I hardly knew her--- I felt energy flow out of my side towards her-- I said nothing but afterwards she had said that she felt an energy enter her body and attributed it to me.
She said she was due a spine opperation which might save her life or leave her paralysed--she was an ex nursing sister-- she was due a pre opp examination and to the surgeons surprise the growth and associated problems had gone.

There were quite a few similar events after that.

The energy continues to flow up the spine and now there is a stirring, a movement in the spiritual heart (right side of the body but near center)

Of myself I do nothing kreagle-- I dont claim to the healer, I can ask for it and I always ask that it only be done if it is the will of God in Whom I trust.

The link here below also gives excellent information.

I appreciate what you do kreagle-- I see the love and open mindedness within you.
With love
Chris

http://www.thesoulsjourney.com/kundalini.html