SAMSARA: The Movie

[Muzz]

Hi

Just came across this film trailler and wondered if anyone had seen this? Its from the makers of Baraka which I found fascinating.

There is also an article about it at Reality Sandwhich (http://www.realitysandwich.com/samsara_movie).

qp967YAAdNk

[Nickolai]

Thank you, Murray!

Such a beautiful movie must be.

Nickolai

[Corncrake]

Thank you for posting - I have just watched the trailers for Baraka and Samsara and am ashamed to say I have not come across either before but will definitely watch both. Beautful and thought provoking.

[Shamz]

I found Full Baraka Movie on youtube. Its full HD (1080p). Downloading it now. Here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpQlw2YzBoM

I also found movie with name Samsara - but it is not the same movie whose trailer is given above. But I think this movie is also about enlightenment. If you do download the movie to see - make sure you turn the caption on. By default it will be in Czech, then click on Translate Caption and select English language.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iSoXBQoiSA

Hope you like it.

Much love

[Tony]

This is an interesting title, in sanskrit it Samsara means - "The vicious cycle of existence." Meaning we search for personal happiness, and this is the very cause of our suffering!

[Shamz]

This is an interesting title, in sanskrit it Samsara means - "The vicious cycle of existence." Meaning we search for personal happiness, and this is the very cause of our suffering!

The present day Hindi equivalent for it is "SanSara " - which basically means the same thing or the usual world that we live in.

[conk]

these movies are incredible. They are simply good on YouTube, but magnificent on a HD BluRay DVD.

[Shamz]

Samsara is not out yet - its available for PreOrder on amazon. Boraka is available for $18 - blueray

[4evrneo]

Wow ! Im only 20 min in Baraka, this is the most stunning, visually thought provoking video I have ever seen. Im in Awe at the beauty of this piece of art.
Thank you !

Annette

[Carmody]

I apologize, but feel I must make humorous comment on what I thought I first read.

"Samosa: The Movie"


http://www.embassyrestaurant.ca/graphics/samosa.jpg

mmmmmm..Samosa.....

(why, there is even an article link at 'reality sandwich')

[4evrneo]

I found Full Baraka Movie on youtube. Its full HD (1080p).
Hope you like it.

Much love

Shamz,
Thank you, this was so amazing, Im speechless.
Blessings,
Annette

[Shamz]

I figured that one of the best ways to find movies/documentaries on Youtube is to NOT search YouTube directly rather I go to
videos.google.com or http://www.google.com/videohp ( both are same )

then search for a name - after the results are displayed I filter them using Video length on the LHS, e.g If i know video length is definitely more than 20 mins. This way you can filter out most of the junk and video in parts.

Most of the links on videos.google.com point to Youtube only.

Much love

[crested-duck]

Thanks for full hd link. I enjoyed seeing the images !

[21CC]

:director:Nonverbal, yet I felt its message LOUD and clear. WOW. So emotionally gripping; I held back tears for as long as I could, then literally silently wailed and shed tears :cry:for all humanity upon the arm of the man next to me whom I'd just met two hours previous. :popcorn:This film played at the Cinerama in Seattle last Tuesday. My childhood/ forever friend and I were invited by an I.T. of a major international coffee retailer based in Seattle (big corporation). I had no idea what was in store. :doh: I can't imagine myself or anyone ever feeling okay about purchasing and consuming retail in the U.S. or other regions of relative wealth and privilege after experiencing the images on the big screen set forth in Samsara , or let alone eating poultry or meats that are not from one's local area. This film should be de rigeur for all of us reigning from privilege or consumer-based culture, to include school aged youth; so that they (we) together take responsibility for the impacts our supposed needs and desires have on our common humanity and environment. I am forever changed. :decision:

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Hi, All:

I wonder if anyone has seen SAMSARA, the visually stunning 2012 documentary by Ron Fricke.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_is73cRFTFY

To offer a synopsis, this is the kind of information package one might have put on an interstellar Pioneer probe to let the ETs know who and what the human race was all about. It says it all about who we are (and more).

I watched it last night. At once multi-sensory, beautiful, impactful and disturbing. I may say more a little further down this thread, because I woke up still thinking about it, and the dust has not yet settled.

[aniN]

I would love to watch it, but Utube says: This video is not available in your country ... :(

[Bill Ryan]

------

Here's the trailer, which gives a really good idea of what to expect.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1TV1XSs20k

[bruno dante]

Damn. Not available on mobile either.

[Bill Ryan]

I would love to watch it, but Utube says: This video is not available in your country ... :(

It says that for me too (in Ecuador). I downloaded it from this torrent:

http://thepiratebay.sx/torrent/7954458

** Ignore the large DOWNLOAD buttons and click where it says GET THIS TORRENT (a smaller button, in green).

Open the torrent file in a bit-torrent application which you can download from (e.g.) http://vuze.com.

(Side note: I have an archive of nearly 1 Tb of movies, documentaries and e-books, all downloaded via torrent. It's a fantastic resource.)

[Billy]

My brother downloaded Samsara from torrent for me. Amongst other films, Cloud Atlas amongst them also. I watched it just two weeks ago.

Yes the visuals and music are amazing. Beautiful Temples. creating mandalas, Scenery. Dancers. The power of nature.

We require to tread her with more care, Respect our animals.

Is she not a beautiful planet.

EDIT: If we sent that out to the universe they would all be booking for a holiday on planet earth. :p

[RMorgan]

Thanks Bill,

I´ll watch it this weekend.

If it´s from the director of Baraka, which is one of the best movies of this style along with the Qatsi trilogy, it surely must be an outstanding visual experience.

Cheers,

Raf.

[aranuk]

My server is Virgin Media and it has banned that torrent site. Boo hoo.

Stan

[InCiDeR]

My server is Virgin Media and it has banned that torrent site. Boo hoo.

Stan

Would this help if you go via this site?

http://www.hidemyass.com/


EDIT: Otherwise I might upload it to a place where everyone can "borrow" it.

[WhiteFeather]

Hey Bill. Thanks for sharing your thoughts from this movie. Try and Stay in this Bliss you have felt. And not be distracted by the daily disturbances if any by living in 3d. ;) Sounds like you have touched Utopia or New Earth my friend. Watching it now.

Peace

W.f.

[RunningDeer]

Thanks, Bill. I'm downloading now.

[Bill Ryan]

I watched it last night. At once multi-sensory, beautiful, impactful and disturbing. I may say more a little further down this thread, because I woke up still thinking about it, and the dust has not yet settled.


Hey Bill. Thanks for sharing your thoughts from this movie. Try and Stay in this Bliss you have felt.


Actually, I really didn't feel bliss at all. I found it quite disturbing.

Some of the beautiful natural images were simply breathtaking (mostly towards the first quarter of the movie). Then it got more 'real' -- a deliberate contrast by the director -- and I was left thinking:

Jeez, we'll never fix this place. It all needs to come down. ALL of it.
Then we can rebuild.

[DeDukshyn]

Thanks for the torrent link.


A comment on your above comment here Bill. I learned in the Landmark Forum; you can't fix major problems. They must be thoroughly removed to allow a proper plan to take it's place.

A solution that references a problem is always created around the problem. But ... I think I'm preaching to the converted ;)

[ghostrider]

I watched it last night. At once multi-sensory, beautiful, impactful and disturbing. I may say more a little further down this thread, because I woke up still thinking about it, and the dust has not yet settled.


Hey Bill. Thanks for sharing your thoughts from this movie. Try and Stay in this Bliss you have felt.


Actually, I really didn't feel bliss at all. I found it quite disturbing.

Some of the beautiful natural images were simply breathtaking (mostly towards the first quarter of the movie). Then it got more 'real' -- a deliberate contrast by the director -- and I was left thinking:

Jeez, we'll never fix this place. It all needs to come down. ALL of it.
Then we can rebuild.

I wrestle with that thought every day, the only fix, is bring it all down, start over , and have smart people in leadership , instead of rich people, everyone works for the good of everyone, everyone doing what they naturally are gifted to do as their job, working for the collective , in return the things they need are taken care of ... war, hunger, the homeless, all gone... our climate and our planet takes presedence over everything ...

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Yes. Members following my posts over time will know that I've often said (usually in response to someone's voiced 'Ascension' hope) -- Look, you need to travel in India and Africa, and then you can see the reality on this planet.

This film does that for the viewer. (And adds China into the mix, as well.) You really get it.

Like: Wow -- what a screwup this place is. A stupendously beautiful, stupendously tragic, really-mixed-grab-bag of an immense godawful screwup.

[DeDukshyn]

I watched it last night. At once multi-sensory, beautiful, impactful and disturbing. I may say more a little further down this thread, because I woke up still thinking about it, and the dust has not yet settled.


Hey Bill. Thanks for sharing your thoughts from this movie. Try and Stay in this Bliss you have felt.


Actually, I really didn't feel bliss at all. I found it quite disturbing.

Some of the beautiful natural images were simply breathtaking (mostly towards the first quarter of the movie). Then it got more 'real' -- a deliberate contrast by the director -- and I was left thinking:

Jeez, we'll never fix this place. It all needs to come down. ALL of it.
Then we can rebuild.

I wrestle with that thought every day, the only fix, is bring it all down, start over , and have smart people in leadership , instead of rich people, everyone works for the good of everyone, everyone doing what they naturally are gifted to do as their job, working for the collective , in return the things they need are taken care of ... war, hunger, the homeless, all gone... our climate and our planet takes presedence over everything ...

If one thinks from the perspective of the whole of humanity as opposed to an individual point of view, it is hard to not come to this realization. Something I accepted already. If it needs to come down to get fixed, give me a pry bar and sledgehammer ...

[Billy]

Then we can rebuild.[/I]

Did you not know that you are already rebuilding Bill.

[Harley]

and I was left thinking:

Jeez, we'll never fix this place. It all needs to come down. ALL of it.
Then we can rebuild.

This may sound sad, but it's been on my mind more and more as each day passes by.

The human race has been hinted to and/or warned about this throughout history (present incarnation) and yet the race has chosen to ignore it.

"We have been tested and found wanting. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wanting) [...] and now the reckoning is at hand." - Victor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EEFJ_C-wdlw)

"Sometimes to create, one must first destroy" - Prometheus (http://www.prometheusforum.net/discussion/3333/theme-sometimes-to-create-one-must-first-destroy/p1)

And hundreds more could be cited here.

According to the records the human race has been restarted many times. And judging from what I see the present iteration (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/iteration) is still far from what we should be.

Sorry to say.

Edit to add:


I learned in the Landmark Forum; you can't fix major problems. They must be thoroughly removed to allow a proper plan to take it's place.

Exactly

[mosquito]

Wow -- what a screwup this place is. A stupendously beautiful, stupendously tragic, really-mixed-grab-bag of an immense godawful screwup.[/I]

With 30 countries under my belt, a variety of jobs in and out of the rat race, a wide range of salaries (and therefore different economic perspectives) to boot, I can safely say that the above statement sums it all up nicely.

After writing that, I just went to have a look out of my window while contemplating our situation. I saw the neighbour's cat and dog playing together - why oh why can't we just get back to the simple things, like having fun with each other, helping, co-operating, supporting ? It's not that bloody hard is it ?!

[jagman]

-------

Yes. Members following my posts over time will know that I've often said (usually in response to someone's voiced 'Ascension' hope) -- Look, you need to travel in India and Africa, and then you can see the reality on this planet.

This film does that for the viewer. (And adds China into the mix, as well.) You really get it.

Like: Wow -- what a screwup this place is. A stupendously beautiful, stupendously tragic, really-mixed-grab-bag of an immense godawful screwup.

Good to see, you still have passion.Bill

[gripreaper]

I wonder if anyone has seen SAMSARA, the visually stunning 2012 documentary by Ron Fricke.

My torrent XBMC says Samsara was done in 2001? Starts with three dancers and then a volcano?

[edit to add] Wikipedia says 2011

[GlassSteagallfan]

Here it is in 2 parts: (and maybe a few pop-ups)

http://cosmos-documentaries.blogspot.gr/2013/03/samsara-hd-documentary-film.html

[Houman]

well... the full movie is here
http://www.letmewatchthis.ch/external.php?gd=1890237934&title=Samsara&url=aHR0cDovL2ZpbGVudWtlLmNvbS81eHNoZnU4dDNsM2Q=&domain=ZmlsZW51a2UuY29t&loggedin=0

[bennycog]

The message that was actually sent into space was the Arecibo message.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message

1.The numbers one (1) to ten (10)
2.The atomic numbers of the elements hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and phosphorus, which make up deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA)
3.The formulas for the sugars and bases in the nucleotides of DNA
4.The number of nucleotides in DNA, and a graphic of the double helix structure of DNA
5.A graphic figure of a human, the dimension (physical height) of an average man, and the human population of Earth
6.A graphic of the Solar System
7.A graphic of the Arecibo radio telescope and the dimension (the physical diameter) of the transmitting antenna dish


" there is also the golden records on Voyager 1 and 2 "

http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/images/golden_record_cover_sm.jpg

http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/goldenrec.html

Pioneers 10 and 11, which preceded Voyager, both carried small metal plaques identifying their time and place of origin for the benefit of any other spacefarers that might find them in the distant future. With this example before them, NASA placed a more ambitious message aboard Voyager 1 and 2-a kind of time capsule, intended to communicate a story of our world to extraterrestrials. The Voyager message is carried by a phonograph record-a 12-inch gold-plated copper disk containing sounds and images selected to portray the diversity of life and culture on Earth.

"scenes from earth"
http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/scenes.html
"greetings from earth"
http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/greetings.html
"music from earth"
http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/music.html
"and finally sounds from earth"
http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/sounds.html

Imagine if they had their decisions to make all over again..
We could add..
" wealth of earth"
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4670266877083932&pid=1.7&w=114&h=146&c=7&rs=1
"the spread of healthy lifestyle and living on earth"
http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4627609242044698&pid=1.7&w=215&h=145&c=7&rs=1
http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4751858370677354&pid=1.7&w=182&h=141&c=7&rs=1

" stage of earth "
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4679999224744056&pid=1.7&w=147&h=148&c=7&rs=1

could keep going and going.. but I still love the most beautiful thing we have here :)
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4670885326948281&pid=1.7&w=242&h=146&c=7&rs=1

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4664099315058832&pid=1.7&w=241&h=132&c=7&rs=1

[christian]

I'm sure this is a great movie, just like Baraka, Chronos, and the Qatsi trilogy. I used to describe them as documentaries about humanity in the style that resembles animal documentaries. You can't hear them speaking and there's little to no narration, but the images are so powerful.

In regard to how messed up this whole place is and how to deal with that... Well, I don't intend to analyze every last document that has been produced in this system... It's cancerous. It's like a balancing act between removing and understanding it.

In the bigger pictures, I have no worries whatsoever, I'm absolutely sure that all the big and small events that bring about change will unfold most magnificiently—because there's an army of light warriors focused on that.

And just because Samsara and this whole talk of getting rid of the old and started with the new gives me goosebumps, here's more material for that...





Some say it was a warning
Some say it was a sign
I was standing right there
When it came down from the sky
The way it spoke to us
We felt it from inside
Said it was up to us
Up to us to decide

You've become a virus
That's eating up its host
We've been watching you with all of our eyes
And what you seem to value most
"So much potential" or so we used to say
Your greed, self-importance, and your arrogance
You piss it all away

We heard a cry
We've come to intervene
You will change your ways and you will make amends
Or we will wipe this place clean

Your time is tick-tick-ticking away...


X3Gq1iLd7jg

[Timreh]

I took a close friend to see it at an independent cinema here in Sydney a few months ago.. the cinema was completely packed, knowing how incredible Baraka was I assured her she would love it! :thumb:

She was in for a suprise..

After ten or fifteen minutes she stood up in tears, deeply distressed and left, I soon followed to comfort her. :tsk:
Had I been alone I may have stayed to see it through but what I did see was very disappointing and nowhere near the magnificence of Baraka.
Maybe that was my mistake? Expecting something of that caliber to be reproduced?
I appreciate the story it may have been trying to portray but to me it was poorly done, I found it had no coherence, like a jigsaw puzzle scattered all over the floor
Graphic and depressing can be ok to tell a story.. If it works!

The coherence issue aside what I did see depicted life rather accurately.

[Daozen]

Jeez, we'll never fix this place. It all needs to come down. ALL of it.
Then we can rebuild.

I watched the trailer, yes it was effective. But we can clean up things without a melodramatic armageddon.

We have the technology, willpower and and resources to fix every single problem we've made. Industrial hemp and Bamboo would take care of a good fifty per cent of our issues.

We have pollution clearing tech, pure water technology, new farming systems.

If it all came crashing down we'd learn nothing.

We've been given a stay of execution. Grace. I'm just going to get on with things and let fate do what it wants.

[TargeT]

Wow -- what a screwup this place is. A stupendously beautiful, stupendously tragic, really-mixed-grab-bag of an immense godawful screwup.[/I]

With 30 countries under my belt, a variety of jobs in and out of the rat race, a wide range of salaries (and therefore different economic perspectives) to boot, I can safely say that the above statement sums it all up nicely.

After writing that, I just went to have a look out of my window while contemplating our situation. I saw the neighbour's cat and dog playing together - why oh why can't we just get back to the simple things, like having fun with each other, helping, co-operating, supporting ? It's not that bloody hard is it ?!

OR!

What an excellent full spectrum experience we have being expressed here on this planet, what more evidence is needed of a consciousness splintered into 7(+)billion perspectives all turned back on itself to experience the most that this planet can offer.

But then I suppose that's a bit too optimistic?

You are exactly where you are suppose to be doing exactly what you should be doing, you can choose to view that as terrible or wonderful, the ride is already going, enjoy it or not, the ride does not care.

[Zampano]

It is a breathtaking and eye-opening documentary for sure. Murray made a thread about it last year in summer.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48933-Samsara-The-Movie

Here is the documentary Baraka from the same makers, similar style.

dZMABHnBQT4

I just wanted to point out the post above by TargeT...he really puts it in good words!

[Bill Ryan]

It is a breathtaking and eye-opening documentary for sure. Murray made a thread about it last year in summer.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48933-Samsara-The-Movie



Thank you! I'll merge the threads.

[yuhui]

Thank you for the post and the torrent! so very grateful to it~

I remembered vividly that Japanese Butoh shot in Baraka, that silent screaming is such a representation of contemporary human psychic in this "stupendously beautiful, stupendously tragic, really-mixed-grab-bag of an immense godawful screwup."



-------

Yes. Members following my posts over time will know that I've often said (usually in response to someone's voiced 'Ascension' hope) -- Look, you need to travel in India and Africa, and then you can see the reality on this planet.

This film does that for the viewer. (And adds China into the mix, as well.) You really get it.

Like: Wow -- what a screwup this place is. A stupendously beautiful, stupendously tragic, really-mixed-grab-bag of an immense godawful screwup.


I know in this forum, mostly are from or live in the western world. But I wonder, really wonder that the western world is the fairiy land（or can be) in this world, because I have seen terrible things happening in there（I studied last year in London） and people walking happily towards the The Queen's Diamond Jubilee(All men are created equal?) . I just think there are different versions of reality and we people from western world or other parts of the world all have that.

Also there is a documentary called "Life in a Day" , it offers a worldview perpective of how differently people live on this planet, but how similar we really are on our "journey".
Introduction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_in_a_Day_(2011_film)
Youtube channel: www.youtube.com/user/lifeinaday‎

[Daozen]

Jeez, we'll never fix this place. It all needs to come down. ALL of it.
Then we can rebuild.

Bill (or anyone), if you list 3-5 of the main problems you believe we face, we can have a structured debate about our environmental future.

I haven't seen Samsara yet, but I wonder if it's subtly pushing the 'humans are a cancer they need to be wiped out' line....

[Daozen]

Anyone want to step up and have a lively + good humoured debate?

Serious offer.

If -anyone- thinks Earth's society is unredeemable, and needs to go down, I'd like to hear why.

[norman]

I just watched Samsara, having first read about it here and ordered the DVD which arrived this morning.

Whaw !

So sad.

I often think of the ways of the world as if it's all like electronic circuits. While watching the 'madnesses' in this film, I even saw how we probably create a fip side to everything we develop. The flip side is that even though we think we have built complex electronics to serve us, we have actually also made our own lives like that. It's so creepy to realise how cleverly we fool ourselves that we are smart.

What a waste of smarts !

[Fred Steeves]

Anyone want to step up and have a lively + good humoured debate?

Serious offer.

If -anyone- thinks Earth's society is unredeemable, and needs to go down, I'd like to hear why.

I can play a convincing devil's advocate if you like...:smokin:

[soleil]

I just watched Baraka, having first read about it here and ordered the DVD which arrived this morning.

Whaw !

So sad.

I often think of the ways of the world as if it's all like electronic circuits. While watching the 'madnesses' in this film, I even saw how we probably create a fip side to everything we develop. The flip side is that even though we think we have built complex electronics to serve us, we have actually also made our own lives like that. It's so creepy to realise how cleverly we fool ourselves that we are smart.

What a waste of smarts !
BARAKA was an awesome movie. i bought samsara on blu ray when it came out. very nice. i'll have to watch it again, as we had to ffwd somethings we thought we too mature for our toddler. :P as we tried to watch it with her. i think we'll need to give it another go. the music is unbelievable.

[Daozen]

I can play a convincing devil's advocate if you like...

Oh yeah. Then why don't you step up, Pilgrim?

:smokin:

[Fred Steeves]

Just as most junkies need to hit rock bottom on the road to perdition before a healing can begin, so it is with us here on planet Earth.

As above so below,
As below so above

[Daozen]

Agreed Fred, a low point can jolt you into a turnaround.

But how far do we need to sink? Riots, violence in the streets, world economic collapse? A glance at www.indiegogo.com tells me there are initiatives underway to tackle nearly every problem we have.

[Ilie Pandia]

Samsara (and Baraka) both are an X-Ray vision into our global society. It shows you the things you would rather not know about.

It shows you the price of cheap clothes and cheap oil. It shows you how the tasty looking, teasing smelling animal products are being produced.

It's safe to say that people working in those jobs are way to poor and busy to "debate things" on the forum like this. Life is way too real and too busy for them.

It is not strange, that at the end you see humans working in what is nothing more than "human farms": sit in your box and do the same move, over and over again...

No amount of debate will fix that... I would not be able to breath in some of the "office spaces" I saw in those movies.

We are accumulating a huge amount of debt in terms of health (both physical and mental), of pollution and environmental destruction and in our "in-humanity" to other humans. All of these are bound to return to us, and I am quite surprised it did not happen yet.

It's very easy to argue with your full belly, roof over your head and working computer that everything seems to be fine with the world.

[Ilie Pandia]

PS: I have nothing against abundance, comfort and a good living. It just does not seem right that a small part of humanity lives in luxury, shifting the price to all the rest. And when I see people buying stuff, only to throw it away... I cannot comprehend that. Some families could live a month on the stuff that other people throw away, to be disposed off.

[Fred Steeves]

But how far do we need to sink? Riots, violence in the streets, world economic collapse? A glance at www.indigogo.com (http://www.indigogo.com) tells me there are initiatives underway to tackle nearly every problem we have.

Well Daozen, here's a pretty good little analogy. I mostly remodel houses for a living, and learned from amongst the finest in that field. Somebody with a good eye, a good imagination, common sense and the experience to boot, can transform a shambles into a friendly little summer cottage in the woods.

Then again, there still has to be that little something something to work with in the first place... Sometimes a structure is impossibly riddled and devoured by termites, and is not all that far from simply collapsing under it's own weight. In these circumstances, even the master builder must concede that there is nothing he can do with it, and recommends the structure be razed to the ground to begin anew.

[Daozen]

You've made a bunch of good points Ilie Panda. I'll save this post and get back to you tomorrow.


It's very easy to argue with your full belly, roof over your head and working computer that everything seems to be fine with the world.

1) I haven't eaten for a few hours.

2) My laptops on the blink.

3) Things are NOT fine with the world. It's a complete mess. What I'm saying is that technology and solutions exist for many, many of the issues you've named.
It's not easy, and it might take decades to get it worted, but it can get done.

I was waiting for someone to finally start naming the problems so we can try and break down the issues.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Then again, there still has to be that little something something to work with in the first place... Sometimes a structure is so impossibly riddled and devoured by termites, and is not all that far from simply collapsing under it's own weight. In these circumstances, even the master builder must concede that there is nothing he can do with it, and recommends the structure be razed to the ground to begin anew.

I understand your analogy.

But are you or I the master builder? And do either of us have the power to start the razing?

I don't, and I don't want to.

So as we're still here, in a grey area.

So I'm going to get on with projects in my sphere of influence.

[Daozen]

PS: I have nothing against abundance, comfort and a good living. It just does not seem right that a small part of humanity lives in luxury, shifting the price to all the rest. And when I see people buying stuff, only to throw it away... I cannot comprehend that. Some families could live a month on the stuff that other people throw away, to be disposed off.

You're right, its a mess. There are plenty of projects underway to reclaim, recycle and redistribute goods. Computers to the developing world, plastic bottles into houses etc.

Ideas to sort out our trash problem would help a lot. I've seen plenty.

OK must go.

[Ilie Pandia]

@Daozen, I understand why you thought my post was aimed at you, as I used some of the words you have used. But if you look at the movie you will understand what I mean...


3) Things are NOT fine with the world. It's a complete mess. What I'm saying is that technology and solutions exist for many, many of the issues you've named.

Indeed, and as far as I am concerned, technology is not even a problem any more... we can feed and clothe everybody since the 60's (if not much much earlier). But before starting to fix anything, we must first see that there IS a problem. However, seeing that there IS a problem, for some people means to see that other humans (and the environment) pay dearly for their comfort. These people have a vested interest in NOT seeing that something is totally messed up...

[Fred Steeves]

I understand your analogy.
But are you or I the master builder? And do either of us have the power to start the razing?.

In this case it is the example I gave of the termite infested house, and it's about to collapse on it's own. The collapse can happen either sooner (with just a little nudge), or later (on it's own).

You and I are not the master builder by the way, we are the clean up crew.



So as we're still here, in a grey area.

So I'm going to get on with projects in my sphere of influence.

By all means do so! As many lives were lost on the Titanic, so were many saved. :)

[Bill Ryan]

Anyone want to step up and have a lively + good humoured debate?

Serious offer.

If -anyone- thinks Earth's society is unredeemable, and needs to go down, I'd like to hear why.

It's a serious question, and I'm comfortable sharing some of the inner debate in my own mind about this. I suspect I may not be alone. :)

As I posted on the first page, I was really quite disturbed by the movie. And I should not really have been, having traveled extensively in India and Africa, and currently living in Ecuador. But I was left thinking: It may all have to come down.

By that, I meant the forest may have to experience a drastic and serious fire, to enable the new growth to appear. I'm not talking about giving up on the human race. But there is SO much that is way out of balance here, sometimes it seems hard to imagine that it could readjust itself without a major catastrophe.

Here's is the classic catastrophe theory diagram:
http://proopnarine.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cusp_catastrophe_b.png

This is not unthinkable or impossible. In fact, this may have happened a number of times before in Earth's history.

Even if the planet itself hasn't experienced catastrophes affecting the human population (the sudden destruction of Atlantis may have been one such event), individual cultures certainly have.

Thom Hartmann, in his masterwork [/URL][URL="http://www.amazon.com/Last-Hours-Ancient-Sunlight-Revised/dp/1400051576"]The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight (http://http://www.amazon.com/Last-Hours-Ancient-Sunlight-Revised/dp/1400051576), describes how every major ancient civilization so far has fallen into swift decline when they ran out of fuel and resources. Even though (as Ilie points out above) we may have the theoretical means to support an even larger population than we have now, the fact is that resource allocation is being massively mismanaged (wither by conspiracy or incompetence).

The world is an enormously unequal and unfair place. I still remember when I first read -- I think it may have been in Hartmann's book -- that there were at the time it was written two billion people who had never made a phone call.

And here we are, the privileged elite -- that's you, the reader, and me! -- with our laptops and coffee, living already in what Richard Dolan calls a breakaway civilization. (That breakaway happened quite a long time ago.)

There are a number of ways that the catastrophe could happen. We don't need an 1859-scale 'Carrington Event' CME, or Clif High's 'Global Coastal Event', or Ed Dames' Killshot, for that. A nuclear World War III is not impossible. Neither are widespread global famine, or global plague.

And ever since I first learned of the DUMBs (Deep Underground Military Bases), the planet's largest ever construction project, which has been in accelerating progress since the early 1950s, I've been worried about what the military planners may be anticipating that we on the surface do not know about.

And they may well be trying to kill all of us but the most aware and capable, in the planet's largest ever EUGENICS project: fewer mouths to feed and transport, or bodies to care for, pensions to pay out. I have had a direct and vivid personal experience (last year, when standing in a large supermarket in Loja, Ecuador), that they really were trying to kill us all -- frog-in-the-heated-pot-slowly, and with enough information leaked out there so that disregarding it is our responsibility, not 'theirs'. As my friend George Green has always insisted, eliminating the 'useless eaters' may be the plan. The Georgia Guidestones (http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/sinister-sites-the-georgia-guidestones/) have it all carved in 12 languages for all to see.

Seen from the point of view of the controllers, this makes a dreadful kind of sense: the logic of the forest keeper, who culls the herd to care for the deer, shooting individuals in order to preserve the balance of the majority. The deer think he's an evil murderer. The forest keeper knows he's responsible, though necessarily dispassionate. I've always maintained that the global controllers care greatly about the human genome -- but not for individual people, not one bit.

Can we make it without a catastrophe, either engineered or naturally inevitable? I don't know. Maybe we can. We do have the technological means to do so. Right now, we can clean and repopulate the oceans, grow enough food (without Monsanto, too), and provide clean energy for everyone.

But only if the controllers see fit. As I write this stream of thought, it feels abundantly clear that they do NOT see fit, and have other plans. It all might depend on whether the controllers hold on to their power, or not. The population is certainly waking up -- but the controllers' grip is pretty much undiminished. That's the setup for the next 25 years. After that, I think it really will be irreversibly decided.

And if there is a catastrophe, can we rebuild, without the controllers presiding over that as well? Maybe we can. But then THEY would have to burn in the forest fire, as it were.

That would necessitate an event that was either unplanned by the controllers -- or be one so major that all their own trillion-dollar prepping would come to naught. Such an event might be a plague, a pole shift (crustal displacement), or a 'Killshot'-scale CME that wipes out all electronics everywhere. (The largest solar flare in recent years was an off-the-scale X-40+. If that had been earth-directed, you might not be reading this now.)

This post has been not so much an argument or a thesis, but a sharing of thoughts that might be interesting and stimulating for others to consider. If that is the case (that they are interesting or stimulating), then I'll consider it to have been worthwhile.

:)

[william r sanford72]

thank you Bill.for post above.yet again my thoughts.feelings voiced and expressed at just the right moment.Fred to.thumbs UP.

[norman]

Yes, there are probably good technologies nearly available to "solve" the crisis, but, when we think about them we tend to 'blink' and imagine a super sane use of those technologies as part of the cure.

The current brood of humans are clearly missing some vital point in the idea of progress. 'We' just don't seem to "get-it". Until 'we' do get-it, no fancy technology will fix this mess. The social dynamics are out of control ( and that includes the idea that we are so 'liberal' there shouldn't be any control ).

Our notions about freedom are perverse and destructive. Democracy, as we do it, is nothing more than a focus group to empower the next wave of social foolery. Even if we 'did' democracy as it was meant to be done, there's still the likelihood that we'd act like a bunch of junkies all voting unanimously to convert all farmland into poppy fields.

Our notion that 'talk is good' is as much a part of the problem as anything else is. When 7 billion people get talking there isn't going to be much quiet thinking or meditation going on. As long as the "solution" remains inside billions of heads, we can all imagine that we agree what needs doing. As soon as we realise we don't agree what needs doing, all hell will break loose.

It seems me that the current controllers have thought about all this and are expoliting our enthusiasm for trashing the past, in full awareness that when we reach the point where we've trashed almost everything, we will fall apart instead of unite to fix the world as we think we will. At that point they'll either wipe us out or possibly give us one shot at becoming a hive of insects they can manage centrally towards some sort of long term gain for them and their project.

Well, that's my current train of thought.

[Sierra]

This discussion reminds me of a philosophical scifi novel Stand on Zanzibar by John Brunner, written in the sixties. Eerily, he pretty much describes the world we have now, and the problems we face.

The "solution" John Brunner found was a property, equivalent to a chemical ascension, hidden in the DNA of a peaceful African tribe, that could be used to transform everyone into a sane human being.

I wish. We are the issue after all.

Sierra

[RMorgan]

Hello Bill,

Well, I agree with you.

Sadly, everything is going to the wrong direction and I can´t see any immediate indicator that this course is about to change.

If things continue like this, the ultimate decision will be to save humanity or to save the planet.

If you ask me, I´m all for saving the planet because we, as a species, have miserably failed over and over again to peacefully and harmoniously coexist with ourselves and all other species that equally have the right to live here on Earth. Honestly, the planet will do much better without us.

The thing is, that people like to talk about change, about building a better society, but they´re not so good in applying such ideals in the real world; People complain about pollution but still drive their cars and couldn´t care less about where their own excrement is going after they flush the toilet. People complain about the excessive exploitation of natural resources but don´t really do anything about reducing consumerism...I could give a thousand examples.

The power to change is actually in the hand of the middle class; The so called elite are the ones who take care of production, but the middle class families are the ones who buy the products and keep the machine´s engine running at full speed.

Unfortunately, I don´t perceive any realistic intention to change from middle class citizens; They are mostly too worried trying not fall into poverty or too worried trying to climb to the top of the pyramid; In other words, they are too busy to think of anything else but to keep or improve their social status, privileges and comforts.

Anyway, along history, humans had numerous chances to make things right, to build intelligent societies, but always failed, mostly for the same reasons, which can be reduced basically to greed on one side and cowardice on the other.

The Mayas, the Egyptians, the Romans...I bet all of them thought their magnificent empires were going to last forever, just like we do...Lost in their arrogance, greed and cowardice and unable make long term planning, they all failed, just like we probably will. It´s not history which tends to repeat itself, we´re the ones who never learn from it.

Real change comes with a price. Don´t think for a second that there´s the slightest possibility of building a sustainable society while continuing to enjoy the average "first world" country middle class lifestyle. If we want real change, we´ll have to make a lot of sacrifices, but people simply don´t want to lose any of the conveniences of modern society.

People can delude themselves as much as they want into thinking that all of a sudden things will change for the best and it will all happen smoothly, but except for a miracle, it simply wont happen like that.

Anyway, our short biological lifespan is a strong limiting factor; We´re too good at ignoring our responsibilities in the now, always hasty to fulfill as many of our futile desires as we can in our short lives, always pushing the problems to future generations until eventually it´s too late.

Fred used an interesting metaphor; Most junkies just decide to quit when they get really close to death. Others, unfortunately, ignore the warning and end up dying from overdose.

So, here we are. Just like the junkies. Either we quit or we die. We may not have much time left to make the call, though.

Cheers,

Raf.

[Fred Steeves]

Devil's advocacy hat off...

In my personal view, one point overlooked here thus far is the title of the movie itself: "Samsara".

From Wickipedia:


Specifically, samsara refers to the process of cycling through one rebirth after another within the six realms of existence,where each realm can be understood as physical realm or a psychological state characterized by a particular type of suffering.

Rather like the Hotel California huh? You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. (LOL)

According to ancient traditions, the idea is that Samsara can basically never be conquered (or escaped), only transcended. We all reside in the realm of Samsara, and the movie is holding that mirror directly in front of our collective face.

Ain't a pretty sight fo sho, as Samsara is basically hell. Being natural born Creators, we both create our own hell/Samsara, but can also create any other reality of our choosing. SHOULD we choose to do so that is...

There is a certain "flow" to things, a sort of Universal harmony so to speak. The more we ignore that harmony in lieu of pure intellect, planning, plotting, fighting, complaining, etc., the deeper into the pit of Samsara we fall. The more we start becoming in sync with that harmony, the more we start moving on to other "things".

Change yourself, change your world.

As above so below, as below so above.

Cheers,
Fred

[Sunny-side-up]

I think you have come to the actual conclusion Bill i'm sorry to say.

We the populas are far behind in knowledge of what the PTB have, I would guess they are fully automated in there massive underground cities now, we have all worked so hard to supply them with the goods lol that they really don't need us anymore, they certainly don't like us that's for sure.

I've reasoned a long time ago that any attempt to make them See Reason,Admit and or change things to help the big global Earth/humanity problems are totally futile, we are waste product to them!

Back before I ever saw koyaanisqatsi and Powaqqatsi I was quite ill and totally ashamed by most of my fellow beings.
The majority I could see where quite happy rapping and destroying the planet, no hope for the majority i thought!

I used to postulate this question

'if a button appeared in front of me and if pressed would take away, wipe out any beings that where the problem to the Earth, even if I was included, well would I press it'

Back then I used to think yes I would press it to save the Earth but now I've grown above that mind set (finding beings in ever increasing numbers like Avalon members have saved my view, so many deserve to live on this Planet and or move on to even better realms)
but I don't think the PTB have.
They of course would push the button for totally different reasons....

Yes Fred so well said, I posted as you was posting so diden't see your words of wisdom :)


There is a certain "flow" to things, a sort of Universal harmony so to speak. The more we ignore that harmony in lieu of pure intellect, planning, plotting, fighting, complaining, etc., the deeper into the pit of Samsara we fall. The more we start becoming in sync with that harmony, the more we start moving on to other "things".

Change yourself, change your world.

As above so below, as below so above.

[Craig]

isn't this depressing, but Bill is right seems like a purge is required, but I have a question, where do aliens fit in with this idea? Are they here to watch our eventual demise, help it or advise on how to avoid it? The idea of an evil elite surviving whilst millions of naive innocents die doesn't sound like compulsive viewing does it?

Normally I would think to sit back and enjoy the ride, but I don't think I will like this one muchly

[Daozen]

Indeed, and as far as I am concerned, technology is not even a problem any more... we can feed and clothe everybody since the 60's (if not much much earlier).

Sure, I'm not pushing hi tech solutions. Mainly simple agricultural systems, water filtration and the like. Our problems are largely social.


However, seeing that there IS a problem, for some people means to see that other humans (and the environment) pay dearly for their comfort.

Sure I agree. But our mass environmental destruction is due to outdated, industrial tech. It's *not* an unavoidable co-effect of 'overpopulation'. Plenty of clean, simple tech in the wings. And yes, it's been around for a century or so.


These people have a vested interest in NOT seeing that something is totally messed up...

Sure, but they make up 1-5 per cent of the world population. Now we can circumvent them with crowdfinanced initiatives. It may take decades, but hey...

¤=[Post Update]=¤


You and I are not the master builder by the way, we are the clean up crew.

Well said. So I'm trying to be the 2013 ounce of prevention instead of the 2015 pound of cure.

[Daozen]

Thanks for your intelligent contributions everyone. I've downloaded your replies and will get back this week I hope. This discussion could go on til TEOTWAWKI

[gripreaper]

I watched Samsara this weekend, and I too was affected. I wish I had written down my thoughts right away that night, but it was so late and I had to get up for work the next day. I did lay there for a few hours though because my field was perturbed.

Out of balance. When we look at nature and planet earth and the systems which are in balance, we see abundance and the ability to sustain balance. How did we get so out of balance? How do we go from 3.5 billion people to over 7 billion in the last 60 years? How is it that exponentially, it looks like a runaway train expanding our of control, as a parasite consumes it's host without any thought whatsoever? How is it that 85% of the people on this planet are in abject poverty, fear and starvation? How is it that 1% are uber wealthy and control 90% of the worlds resources, while the other 90% have none?

it's the 1% who are the problem. They came here (see the movie Avatar) from off planet, messed with our DNA, turned us into slaves, got tired of the genetic manipulations of reproduction, and designed us to reproduce like rabbits without thinking about the long term consequences EXCEPT...who gives a rats ass anyway, we'll just nuke the bastards when there gets to be too many of them.

THESE elite caused the imbalance in the natural order of this planet, by introducing anomalies for selfish nefarious reasons, and the answer is to get rid of this cancer, this virus infecting this natural order and balance, and yes, we need a reset. Can the reset be done based on the cloned chimeric species WE ALL ARE occupying this planet, consuming all it's resources, and F-kin like rabbits? Probably not.

But...I do believe the technology is available to tweak our DNA back to the original template to where we have full capacity to be conscious , without any type of cataclysmic event wiping out the existing clones. Heck, if the elite can design and create super soldiers, or design a new chimeric human 2.0 (which some have postulated exists and earth is being terraformed for now) then why can't we overthrow them, take the free energy and nano technology, fix the problem, load up the bastards in their spaceships and send them the hell out of here.

I know this may be somewhat Pollyanna with over 85% sound asleep, but? If we don't do it, nature will. She only tolerates imbalance for so long before she shakes us off like a dog shakes off fleas. She don't care if it takes 200,000 years to recover, she is not stuck in linear time like we are. And then, the emergent species will evolve, and if they are not manipulated and remain in balance, the golden age can go for millions of years and be sustainable. It matters not.

Whether this planet is just a speck of dust in someones closet and the vacuum cleaner is on and headed this way, or we are powerful creators with the power of the entire universe within us, it all comes out in the wash.

[norman]

They came here (see the movie Avatar) from off planet, messed with our DNA, turned us into slaves, got tired of the genetic manipulations of reproduction, and designed us to reproduce like rabbits without thinking about the long term consequences EXCEPT...who gives a rats ass anyway, we'll just nuke the bastards when there gets to be too many of them.




Feels like the way I feel it's supposed to be understood, too.

[jiminii]

I think you have come to the actual conclusion Bill i'm sorry to say.

We the populas are far behind in knowledge of what the PTB have, I would guess they are fully automated in there massive underground cities now, we have all worked so hard to supply them with the goods lol that they really don't need us anymore, they certainly don't like us that's for sure.

I've reasoned a long time ago that any attempt to make them See Reason,Admit and or change things to help the big global Earth/humanity problems are totally futile, we are waste product to them!

Back before I ever saw koyaanisqatsi and Powaqqatsi I was quite ill and totally ashamed by most of my fellow beings.
The majority I could see where quite happy rapping and destroying the planet, no hope for the majority i thought!

I used to postulate this question

'if a button appeared in front of me and if pressed would take away, wipe out any beings that where the problem to the Earth, even if I was included, well would I press it'

Back then I used to think yes I would press it to save the Earth but now I've grown above that mind set (finding beings in ever increasing numbers like Avalon members have saved my view, so many deserve to live on this Planet and or move on to even better realms)
but I don't think the PTB have.
They of course would push the button for totally different reasons....

Yes Fred so well said, I posted as you was posting so diden't see your words of wisdom :)


There is a certain "flow" to things, a sort of Universal harmony so to speak. The more we ignore that harmony in lieu of pure intellect, planning, plotting, fighting, complaining, etc., the deeper into the pit of Samsara we fall. The more we start becoming in sync with that harmony, the more we start moving on to other "things".

Change yourself, change your world.

As above so below, as below so above.

the cabal was given an ultimatum to leave ... they already have mars terriformed and looks similar to earth ... and they are just giving us old photos of the planet to fool us ... they have copied all the master piece arts around the world and moved them there along with their gold ... as far as I know and apparently we hear a lot of resignations everywhere .. don't know it this is true ...

maybe someone here can look and find out

jim

[Daozen]

the cabal was given an ultimatum to leave ... they already have mars terriformed and looks similar to earth ... and they are just giving us old photos of the planet to fool us

Interesting. Just wondered what your source on this is??? Thanks.

[jiminii]

the cabal was given an ultimatum to leave ... they already have mars terriformed and looks similar to earth ... and they are just giving us old photos of the planet to fool us

Interesting. Just wondered what your source on this is??? Thanks.

some site says they are speaking from andromeda .. a captain bill ... but .. a lot of his data starts from 2010 mostly about nibiru and what the stars ships are doing about it around the planet ... he sounds very authentic .. but I can't prove it ... don't know if it is another disinformation sight .. he answers everyone's questions about the peramids and everything else ... but I have no way myself to verify the data .. so I thought someone here would know

JIm

[jiminii]

Anyone want to step up and have a lively + good humoured debate?

Serious offer.

If -anyone- thinks Earth's society is unredeemable, and needs to go down, I'd like to hear why.

It's a serious question, and I'm comfortable sharing some of the inner debate in my own mind about this. I suspect I may not be alone. :)

As I posted on the first page, I was really quite disturbed by the movie. And I should not really have been, having traveled extensively in India and Africa, and currently living in Ecuador. But I was left thinking: It may all have to come down.

By that, I meant the forest may have to experience a drastic and serious fire, to enable the new growth to appear. I'm not talking about giving up on the human race. But there is SO much that is way out of balance here, sometimes it seems hard to imagine that it could readjust itself without a major catastrophe.

Here's is the classic catastrophe theory diagram:
http://proopnarine.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cusp_catastrophe_b.png

This is not unthinkable or impossible. In fact, this may have happened a number of times before in Earth's history.

Even if the planet itself hasn't experienced catastrophes affecting the human population (the sudden destruction of Atlantis may have been one such event), individual cultures certainly have.

Thom Hartmann, in his masterwork [/URL][URL="http://www.amazon.com/Last-Hours-Ancient-Sunlight-Revised/dp/1400051576"]The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight (http://http://www.amazon.com/Last-Hours-Ancient-Sunlight-Revised/dp/1400051576), describes how every major ancient civilization so far has fallen into swift decline when they ran out of fuel and resources. Even though (as Ilie points out above) we may have the theoretical means to support an even larger population than we have now, the fact is that resource allocation is being massively mismanaged (wither by conspiracy or incompetence).

The world is an enormously unequal and unfair place. I still remember when I first read -- I think it may have been in Hartmann's book -- that there were at the time it was written two billion people who had never made a phone call.

And here we are, the privileged elite -- that's you, the reader, and me! -- with our laptops and coffee, living already in what Richard Dolan calls a breakaway civilization. (That breakaway happened quite a long time ago.)

There are a number of ways that the catastrophe could happen. We don't need an 1859-scale 'Carrington Event' CME, or Clif High's 'Global Coastal Event', or Ed Dames' Killshot, for that. A nuclear World War III is not impossible. Neither are widespread global famine, or global plague.

And ever since I first learned of the DUMBs (Deep Underground Military Bases), the planet's largest ever construction project, which has been in accelerating progress since the early 1950s, I've been worried about what the military planners may be anticipating that we on the surface do not know about.

And they may well be trying to kill all of us but the most aware and capable, in the planet's largest ever EUGENICS project: fewer mouths to feed and transport, or bodies to care for, pensions to pay out. I have had a direct and vivid personal experience (last year, when standing in a large supermarket in Loja, Ecuador), that they really were trying to kill us all -- frog-in-the-heated-pot-slowly, and with enough information leaked out there so that disregarding it is our responsibility, not 'theirs'. As my friend George Green has always insisted, eliminating the 'useless eaters' may be the plan. The Georgia Guidestones (http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/sinister-sites-the-georgia-guidestones/) have it all carved in 12 languages for all to see.

Seen from the point of view of the controllers, this makes a dreadful kind of sense: the logic of the forest keeper, who culls the herd to care for the deer, shooting individuals in order to preserve the balance of the majority. The deer think he's an evil murderer. The forest keeper knows he's responsible, though necessarily dispassionate. I've always maintained that the global controllers care greatly about the human genome -- but not for individual people, not one bit.

Can we make it without a catastrophe, either engineered or naturally inevitable? I don't know. Maybe we can. We do have the technological means to do so. Right now, we can clean and repopulate the oceans, grow enough food (without Monsanto, too), and provide clean energy for everyone.

But only if the controllers see fit. As I write this stream of thought, it feels abundantly clear that they do NOT see fit, and have other plans. It all might depend on whether the controllers hold on to their power, or not. The population is certainly waking up -- but the controllers' grip is pretty much undiminished. That's the setup for the next 25 years. After that, I think it really will be irreversibly decided.

And if there is a catastrophe, can we rebuild, without the controllers presiding over that as well? Maybe we can. But then THEY would have to burn in the forest fire, as it were.

That would necessitate an event that was either unplanned by the controllers -- or be one so major that all their own trillion-dollar prepping would come to naught. Such an event might be a plague, a pole shift (crustal displacement), or a 'Killshot'-scale CME that wipes out all electronics everywhere. (The largest solar flare in recent years was an off-the-scale X-40+. If that had been earth-directed, you might not be reading this now.)

This post has been not so much an argument or a thesis, but a sharing of thoughts that might be interesting and stimulating for others to consider. If that is the case (that they are interesting or stimulating), then I'll consider it to have been worthwhile.

:)

bill this is what I have been trying to tell you .... we in the future knew it was an unfair game ... the cabal manipulated by the reptilians .. with only so many spirit beings compared to Genetic Entities .. means ... they don't dump as many spirits here as people breed babies ... and those GE's are all being programmed by mass media and fear and everything else ... so that is why a lot of us in the future sent millions of new spirit beings created right out of source ... this means ... they don't have 76 trillion years of pain pulling them down ... they can't be messed with very easy in one short earth lifetime ... and it is like you said and THIS IS REALLY TRUE ... we are everywhere mixed across every country .. and in every land ... we can be farmers or even peasants but we are holding all those positions and our theta level is at the top ... if you compare the average person on this planet with 76 or more trillions of years losing and losing and pain .. and more pain .. you can see how much free theta they might have ... and they are really worn to the bone ... so it was not balanced ... but now like you said ... we will start to rise ... the cabal played their game and we held our ground and we proved we can hold it so we do have a voice now ... so we will be rising out up now out of all this mess and WE WILL CHANGE IT for the better ...

just look around and you can already see it happening

jim

[jiminii]

Anyone want to step up and have a lively + good humoured debate?

Serious offer.

If -anyone- thinks Earth's society is unredeemable, and needs to go down, I'd like to hear why.

It's a serious question, and I'm comfortable sharing some of the inner debate in my own mind about this. I suspect I may not be alone. :)

As I posted on the first page, I was really quite disturbed by the movie. And I should not really have been, having traveled extensively in India and Africa, and currently living in Ecuador. But I was left thinking: It may all have to come down.

By that, I meant the forest may have to experience a drastic and serious fire, to enable the new growth to appear. I'm not talking about giving up on the human race. But there is SO much that is way out of balance here, sometimes it seems hard to imagine that it could readjust itself without a major catastrophe.

Here's is the classic catastrophe theory diagram:
http://proopnarine.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cusp_catastrophe_b.png

This is not unthinkable or impossible. In fact, this may have happened a number of times before in Earth's history.

Even if the planet itself hasn't experienced catastrophes affecting the human population (the sudden destruction of Atlantis may have been one such event), individual cultures certainly have.

Thom Hartmann, in his masterwork [/URL][URL="http://www.amazon.com/Last-Hours-Ancient-Sunlight-Revised/dp/1400051576"]The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight (http://http://www.amazon.com/Last-Hours-Ancient-Sunlight-Revised/dp/1400051576), describes how every major ancient civilization so far has fallen into swift decline when they ran out of fuel and resources. Even though (as Ilie points out above) we may have the theoretical means to support an even larger population than we have now, the fact is that resource allocation is being massively mismanaged (wither by conspiracy or incompetence).

The world is an enormously unequal and unfair place. I still remember when I first read -- I think it may have been in Hartmann's book -- that there were at the time it was written two billion people who had never made a phone call.

And here we are, the privileged elite -- that's you, the reader, and me! -- with our laptops and coffee, living already in what Richard Dolan calls a breakaway civilization. (That breakaway happened quite a long time ago.)

There are a number of ways that the catastrophe could happen. We don't need an 1859-scale 'Carrington Event' CME, or Clif High's 'Global Coastal Event', or Ed Dames' Killshot, for that. A nuclear World War III is not impossible. Neither are widespread global famine, or global plague.

And ever since I first learned of the DUMBs (Deep Underground Military Bases), the planet's largest ever construction project, which has been in accelerating progress since the early 1950s, I've been worried about what the military planners may be anticipating that we on the surface do not know about.

And they may well be trying to kill all of us but the most aware and capable, in the planet's largest ever EUGENICS project: fewer mouths to feed and transport, or bodies to care for, pensions to pay out. I have had a direct and vivid personal experience (last year, when standing in a large supermarket in Loja, Ecuador), that they really were trying to kill us all -- frog-in-the-heated-pot-slowly, and with enough information leaked out there so that disregarding it is our responsibility, not 'theirs'. As my friend George Green has always insisted, eliminating the 'useless eaters' may be the plan. The Georgia Guidestones (http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/sinister-sites-the-georgia-guidestones/) have it all carved in 12 languages for all to see.

Seen from the point of view of the controllers, this makes a dreadful kind of sense: the logic of the forest keeper, who culls the herd to care for the deer, shooting individuals in order to preserve the balance of the majority. The deer think he's an evil murderer. The forest keeper knows he's responsible, though necessarily dispassionate. I've always maintained that the global controllers care greatly about the human genome -- but not for individual people, not one bit.

Can we make it without a catastrophe, either engineered or naturally inevitable? I don't know. Maybe we can. We do have the technological means to do so. Right now, we can clean and repopulate the oceans, grow enough food (without Monsanto, too), and provide clean energy for everyone.

But only if the controllers see fit. As I write this stream of thought, it feels abundantly clear that they do NOT see fit, and have other plans. It all might depend on whether the controllers hold on to their power, or not. The population is certainly waking up -- but the controllers' grip is pretty much undiminished. That's the setup for the next 25 years. After that, I think it really will be irreversibly decided.

And if there is a catastrophe, can we rebuild, without the controllers presiding over that as well? Maybe we can. But then THEY would have to burn in the forest fire, as it were.

That would necessitate an event that was either unplanned by the controllers -- or be one so major that all their own trillion-dollar prepping would come to naught. Such an event might be a plague, a pole shift (crustal displacement), or a 'Killshot'-scale CME that wipes out all electronics everywhere. (The largest solar flare in recent years was an off-the-scale X-40+. If that had been earth-directed, you might not be reading this now.)

This post has been not so much an argument or a thesis, but a sharing of thoughts that might be interesting and stimulating for others to consider. If that is the case (that they are interesting or stimulating), then I'll consider it to have been worthwhile.

:)

bill this is what I have been trying to tell you .... we in the future knew it was an unfair game ... the cabal manipulated by the reptilians .. with only so many spirit beings compared to Genetic Entities .. means ... they don't dump as many spirits here as people breed babies ... and those GE's are all being programmed by mass media and fear and everything else ... so that is why a lot of us in the future sent millions of new spirit beings created right out of source ... this means ... they don't have 76 trillion years of pain pulling them down ... they can't be messed with very easy in one short earth lifetime ... and it is like you said and THIS IS REALLY TRUE ... we are everywhere mixed across every country .. and in every land ... we can be farmers or even peasants but we are holding all those positions and our theta level is at the top ... if you compare the average person on this planet with 76 or more trillions of years losing and losing and pain .. and more pain .. you can see how much free theta they might have ... and they are really worn to the bone ... so it was not balanced ... but now like you said ... we will start to rise ... the cabal played their game and we held our ground and we proved we can hold it so we do have a voice now ... so we will be rising out up now out of all this mess and WE WILL CHANGE IT for the better ...

just look around and you can already see it happening

jim

there is one other problem we had with this .. a lot of the societies in the stars and galaxies around not just this one ... thought this place was not worth the trouble ... like it was a slum and very unpopular ... but we were given a chance anyway after we voiced out thoughts that if given a chance to prove ourselves ... without endless years of pain and torture and etc ... what would they think then .. so they gave us a chance ... and part of it was to allow us to balance out this game and see what will happen to the people here .... and so we held our grounds in the back ground giving aide as we can ... silently ... or not ... as it came out .. to see what will happen... and the people did rise up and they proved they were worthy to be given a chance under all this pressure ... so i told you WE WON ... and it is TRUE ... so it will be going up from here ...

ok??

that is something coming straight from me and something I KNOW FOR SURE

jim

[Bill Ryan]

the cabal was given an ultimatum to leave ... they already have mars terriformed and looks similar to earth ... and they are just giving us old photos of the planet to fool us ... they have copied all the master piece arts around the world and moved them there along with their gold ... as far as I know and apparently we hear a lot of resignations everywhere .. don't know it this is true ...

maybe someone here can look and find out

jim


Jim, as best I know this is not true.

Mars is certainly not terraformed to resemble Earth. And I have not heard or read anywhere that the cabal have been given an "ultimatum to leave".

They might have been archiving some material on the moon. There is some anecdotal evidence for that.

What's the source of your information? (Please quote links to other material if you've found it elsewhere on the internet. Or if it comes from what someone told you, please also let us know if that's the case. Otherwise, it makes statements like this hard to have a conversation about.)

[northstar]

By that, I meant the forest may have to experience a drastic and serious fire, to enable the new growth to appear. I'm not talking about giving up on the human race. But there is SO much that is way out of balance here, sometimes it seems hard to imagine that it could readjust itself without a major catastrophe.

This is not unthinkable or impossible. In fact, this may have happened a number of times before in Earth's history.

Even if the planet itself hasn't experienced catastrophes affecting the human population (the sudden destruction of Atlantis may have been one such event), individual cultures certainly have.

The world is an enormously unequal and unfair place.

And here we are, the privileged elite -- that's you, the reader, and me! -- with our laptops and coffee, living already in what Richard Dolan calls a breakaway civilization. (That breakaway happened quite a long time ago.)

There are a number of ways that the catastrophe could happen.

And ever since I first learned of the DUMBs (Deep Underground Military Bases), the planet's largest ever construction project, which has been in accelerating progress since the early 1950s, I've been worried about what the military planners may be anticipating that we on the surface do not know about.

And they may well be trying to kill all of us but the most aware and capable, in the planet's largest ever EUGENICS project: fewer mouths to feed and transport, or bodies to care for, pensions to pay out. I have had a direct and vivid personal experience (last year, when standing in a large supermarket in Loja, Ecuador), that they really were trying to kill us all -- frog-in-the-heated-pot-slowly, and with enough information leaked out there so that disregarding it is our responsibility, not 'theirs'. As my friend George Green has always insisted, eliminating the 'useless eaters' may be the plan. The Georgia Guidestones (http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/sinister-sites-the-georgia-guidestones/) have it all carved in 12 languages for all to see.

I've always maintained that the global controllers care greatly about the human genome -- but not for individual people, not one bit.

Can we make it without a catastrophe, either engineered or naturally inevitable? I don't know. Maybe we can. We do have the technological means to do so. Right now, we can clean and repopulate the oceans, grow enough food (without Monsanto, too), and provide clean energy for everyone.

This post has been not so much an argument or a thesis, but a sharing of thoughts that might be interesting and stimulating for others to consider. If that is the case (that they are interesting or stimulating), then I'll consider it to have been worthwhile.

:)

Bill thanks for this excellent and well reasoned assessment.

Here are my thoughts.

With regards to the controllers, I don't think anyone could disagree at this point that there are a very small elite on this planet who are making trillions of dollars profiting from the systematic and deliberate poisoning of the skies, the food, and the waters. They are fighting an undeclared war upon all life on this planet including plants, animals, insects, birds, fish and people. And from what I can see they appear to be doing it purely to extract as much short term profit from these predatory and parasitic business practices as they can with absolutely no concern for the sanctity of human life (or any life whatsoever). This is not even considering massive governmental and military malfeasance, the secret programs, the secret weapons, etc. In addition, it saddens me greatly that far too many scientists appear to have been bought and paid for and are willing to make their research results say whatever their elite masters expect.

The scale of the destruction, the suffering, and the peril we find ourselves in at this point in history is truly overwhelming and unspeakable. It is hard to adequately describe it in words. In addition to the suffering and destruction caused by the humans, as you described above, humanity could easily be facing an extinction event from any number of sources (you mentioned just a few).

Clearly when people really stop and reflect on this situation and allow their internal defense mechanisms (such as denial) to fall away the only logical human response is shock, grief, terror, and hopelessness.

So then, shall we sit in shock, grief, terror and helplessness and allow the elite (the entities who occupy those human bodies) to proceed with the blood soaked culling as outlined on the Georgia Guidestones? Shall we simply sit back and allow the elite to complete the terraforming of this planet so it will be uninhabitable by human life? Because that is the extremely obvious end game. By the time the elite controllers are "done", the atmosphere will be irradiated, the air will be toxic, the food will be toxic, the water will be toxic and our children's children will be dying of organ damage and tumors.

Can each of us, in our deepest heart of hearts, allow that to happen?

Personally, I made my decision and vow not too long ago that the path of the spiritual warrior is where I will make my last stand on this issue. I stand for life. I stand for Mother Gaia. And those forces which are clearly anti-life (the elite controllers who are making this planet uninhabitable for life) ARE THE ENEMY.

We don't need to be sheep calmly eating in the fields as the elite controllers proceed with our culling. What is called for at this perilous time is not the calm quiet of sheep energy but
the far seeing focus of eagle energy,
the efficient warrior skills of wolf energy,
the fierce fighting strength of bear energy,
the unstoppable determination of bull and ram energy
and the fiery heart of lion energy.

Peace.
Namaste.
Blessings.

[WEAREONE]

Have not seen the movie. On the topic however of Earths society as unredeemable I would like to suggest that....

I think most on Avalon would agree there is some forces that have in the past and currently are manipuating the world we live in. The definitions used to define the negative forces range widely from;the Annunaki, Fallen Angels, Archons,Reptilians, Satanists...to the more pedestrian, Bilderbergs, Bankers, Rothchilds, Zionists, etc etc. The list can vary far and wide ranging from other dimensional forces, to just greedy old buggers. Caught in the middle is US and not to be disregarded the living creatures of the planet makes up the US. When we consider the US I think it must be pointed out that despite the constant predation, manipulation we all for the most part want peace, love our families and friends, do not want war and violence etc etc. Sure there are some outliers but when I consider the 6-7 billion people of the world I think of US as the child who has been beaten and badly treated, who defense mechanisms have turned us cold and brutal. Now imagine all the possible scenarios in which we are manipulated, whether it be by our DNA, Our Religions/Beliefs subliminal programming, toxins pumped into the air, and water, GMO's, mass marketing of everthing ranging from the food we eat, to the wars we pursue. Well, I think that despite all this humanity if could be truly free would choose as I stated above, to be peaceful, to love one another, to be fair, to be just.

And heres the thing for me, I beleive in balance, the negative forces have a counter, it is not all negative, I believe life on Earth is reaching a sort of mini climax, the current system is not sustainable. And I believe there is a rising up of the masses. More and more people are becoming aware, and given the choice which I believe is coming most would choose the path of peace and light. The system can IMO change peacefully for the better, it will be more in line with Native American ideas of balnce with nature, balance with everything,there will be less material things but the things we will have such as clean water and food, equality, will be in ways priceless. How this change will be triggered is still a mystery to me, but I personally believe that there are more and more spirits that are coming to our world, that are more and more aware and who want change. I belive in the US, I have trouble with having any Faith in religion, but I do find it easy to have Faith in US.

[Bill Ryan]

the cabal was given an ultimatum to leave ... they already have mars terriformed and looks similar to earth ... and they are just giving us old photos of the planet to fool us

Interesting. Just wondered what your source on this is??? Thanks.

some site says they are speaking from andromeda .. a captain bill ... but .. a lot of his data starts from 2010 mostly about nibiru and what the stars ships are doing about it around the planet ... he sounds very authentic .. but I can't prove it ... don't know if it is another disinformation sight .. he answers everyone's questions about the peramids and everything else ... but I have no way myself to verify the data .. so I thought someone here would know

JIm

Jim, this is nonsense.

My strong, sincere, personal advice to you: keep away from all the bad information on the internet. If it's true or valid or contains any substance, you'll read about it here on Avalon.

Your value here as an Avalon member is to share your own personal experiences, which are fascinating and may be important.

This is not intended to be an invalidation of your intentions, but you may not be well-informed or experienced enough to be able to analyze in depth and detail what's true and what's not -- out there on the net.

It's safest to stick with what you're an expert on-- and that is yourself.

The risk is that if you copy and re-post silly internet claims here as if they were facts, you will accidentally discredit your own personal story. The Avalon members are pretty smart. :)

The downside of that is that they will jump on things that are silly internet rumors. And if you are perceived as being gullible and falling for those, then your very interesting 'baby' may be thrown out with the bathwater.

:)

[RMorgan]

Hey folks,

Well, there´s always the thought around here that a minority, an elite, is exclusively responsible for all the mess we´re going through.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I can´t stand listening to it anymore. This is purely and simple escapism.

Sure, there´s an elite in control of most aspects of modern society...That´s true.

However, such controllers would never exist if we, the average people, didn´t support them.

The logic is simple: They have a business and we are their clients; No business can survive without clients.

So, people complain about the tyranny of bankers but still use banks; People complain all the time about pollution, but still drive cars; People complain GMOs, but still buy GMOs; People complain about misuse of public money, but still pay taxes; I could go on and on and on...

Sorry to say that, but if we´re in this bad situation, is because we, the average people, are cowards. I´m not talking about you or me, specifically, but about humanity as a whole.

You know, all of it makes me remember of a city which used to be the capitol of Brazil; Ouro Preto.

Back in the days when there was still formal slavery, the slaves outnumbered the masters by 100 to 1 over there. They could have easily taken over the city by themselves but they didn´t.

Things haven´t changed much, except that the chains that keep us slaved are invisible, and we have actually learned to love the whole thing.

This is like a love and hate relationship; We hate the elite, the controllers, but we are so used to being controlled that we simply can´t figure out how to break these invisible chains. Besides, the huge majority of people simply love the conveniences of modern society, which are services provided by them.

So, just think twice before exempting yourself from responsibility and blaming a small group for all this mess. When you do that, it may have more meaning than you ever imagined.

We´ll only have the moral right to blame them once we stop supporting them, in the meantime, our complains are just acts of alienation, hypocrisy and escapism...You know, you can´t complain about how much you hate pizza while eating pizza at the same time; It´s simply insane.

The funny thing is that they know it and this is exactly what gives them their distorted sense of ethics; They look to us as ungrateful useless eaters, who do nothing besides complaining. They believe we´re nothing without them and actually they are right to a certain point, because they´re the ones who provide the greatest conveniences of modern society which we love so much.

When these folks look in the mirror, they don´t see villains; They see misunderstood martyrs. They see us as cowards incapable of doing anything but complaining, while they see themselves as our guardians and saviors. They feel responsible for us, and see it as a burden; In fact, if they stop producing what they do, half of the human population will die in less than a year.

No wonder why Atlas Shrugged is one of their favorite modern books...I wouldn´t be surprised if they simply decided to leave, just like happened in the book, stopping all industrial production and leaving society to succumb among the chaos...Perhaps this is what those DUMBS are for.

Anyway, the fact is that, the world is ours to take; Like Ouro Preto´s slaves, we outnumber them 100 to 1. If we didn´t do anything to change it, it´s either because deep inside we don´t want, because we´re unable or because we´re babbit cowards.

Things are much simpler than most people can realize. What employees do when they are not happy with the company they work for? They go on strike.

If we´re unhappy with the system of which we´re the workers, then what´s stopping us from going on a massive global strike? The answer is nothing, but ourselves.

There´s no physical difference between slaves and masters, only psychological. The slave mentality is what´s stopping us from engaging a revolution and as long as we keep blaming everyone else for our disgrace, we´ll never get rid of it. A free man must be completely aware of his responsibilities and knows that freedom comes with a price. Are you ready to pay the price?

Raf.

[greybeard]

I agree with Raf
It would seem if you believe the information put out in the book Power vs Force by the Late Dr David Hawkins that people get the level of government that the countries collective energy attracts. I believe in the principals expounded in the book.

We are all individually free to attract what we want into our lives.
I have never felt restricted by any outside "Authority"
As the saying goes I render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's
God being life --spirit which is what I am ---that is no challenge.
A very positive video regarding our evolution here (Bruce Lipton)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=683120&viewfull=1#post683120

[Agape]

http://proopnarine.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cusp_catastrophe_b.png


Just a thought or two before it ever happens .

Is there a threshold of human evolution , both biological, sociological and psycho-spiritual evolution , using the term 'evolution' as freely as possible now ,
that can only be achieved after reaching certain 'critical mass' of humans inhabiting this planet and why .


What really happens when population density increases . Sort of similar to what happens in human brain , more synapses between individual neurones providing more information transfer and more activity altogether, of all sorts .

Sooner or later, heating your head up with accumulated stress , suppressed archetypal fears and atavisms and constant 'wake up , wake up '' drills from the brain control centres ,

it finds out that the summa of all information and its ramifications is endless rather than it would possess definite solution and suppose there is such a solution, it will require few generations of its own life time to find one .

Some parts of brain ( and society ) may happen to end up paralysed by the sheer idea while other parts start committing mass suicides aka brain strokes .

While the control centre is still trying to maintain full control of the operation and feeds population samples with different sorts of stimulants so they can survive longer ..
or even heal,

what really matters is to keep the whole body of human society ( brain likewise ) in harmonious state with itself, with nature .. with its own Source in faraway Universe .


The stress curve in dense inhabited areas is much higher than in areas with low density of population, in long term observations .

However , there are two or three advantages in the fast recycling of human genome while allowing population grow.

Number one, learning . With each new generation, we've learned something new.

Number two, more people available to be compared , better for them .

Number three, the probability of finding unique solution using more human power rises


Disadvantages are obvious ..

Stress factor increasing exponentially with limited living place, lack of privacy and enforced information patterns

Biological and all other forms of heat are increasing , resulting from information exchange , require more energy sources than ever consumed by so called 'primitive societies' ( non technological ) even in long run , simply to operate

. Mankind 2 will always require better nutrition and more energy to run successfully and forwards than Mankind 1 , no matter what we do

there is a demand not only to keep the civilisation alive but also to keep it running high speed at the end ..

At the same time, and before the civilisation itself runs out of time and reproduction cycle exhausts itself to a degree ..
and will eventually progress to the state of mankind 3

it of course needs to reach stable number of living members fitting everyones needs.

I know you or i hate the word 'everyone' but if you exclude someone, at the end, it may be you.

Fitting in the great cataclysm theory here and fight for resources that inevitably kills out weaker portions of meaty populace to feed meat eaters ..

when all the vegetables were already consumed and the rest of them is planted in unhealthy underground bunkers called DUMBs ..etc.


There are several options as what will happen at the end , quite possibly, of the blue and reg guys in the picture, one will go to explore universe and settle somewhere else ( it happened already couple of times, during ancient human history i believe ) and the others will stay here and handle the rest .

Alternatively, we all will go home at the end ..to where we came from..

leave few guys here with equipments to look after the place and next time we come to see them there will be another mayhem here and 4 billion kids running around hungry .


That's what this place does


:fish2:

[jiminii]

some site says they are speaking from andromeda .. a captain bill ... but .. a lot of his data starts from 2010 mostly about nibiru and what the stars ships are doing about it around the planet ... he sounds very authentic .. but I can't prove it ... don't know if it is another disinformation sight .. he answers everyone's questions about the peramids and everything else ... but I have no way myself to verify the data .. so I thought someone here would know

JIm

Jim, this is nonsense.

My strong, sincere, personal advice to you: keep away from all the bad information on the internet. If it's true or valid or contains any substance, you'll read about it here on Avalon.

Your value here as an Avalon member is to share your own personal experiences, which are fascinating and may be important.

This is not intended to be an invalidation of your intentions, but you may not be well-informed or experienced enough to be able to analyze in depth and detail what's true and what's not -- out there on the net.

It's safest to stick with what you're an expert on-- and that is yourself.

The risk is that if you copy and re-post silly internet claims here as if they were facts, you will accidentally discredit your own personal story. The Avalon members are pretty smart. :)

The downside of that is that they will jump on things that are silly internet rumors. And if you are perceived as being gullible and falling for those, then your very interesting 'baby' may be thrown out with the bathwater.

:)

thanks I just wanted to clear that out of my head

so I asked if anyone could verify it or not

...

the thing is this site is so big ... I don't even know where to go ... or what to look for .... ... I have this surety .. we are all ok ... nothing will stop that not even the military .... we have enough theta on the planet to prevent that .. and it seems it is all kicking in now .... I can feel ... the theta kicking in everywhere ... so expecting to see some major changes


jim

[music]

jiminii: I have this surety .. we are all ok

Me too


RMorgan: No wonder why Atlas Shrugged is one of their favorite modern books

Wasn't Ayn Rand a Rothshild mistress? That would make this book something that was commissioned to order.

Raf, you make some good points, as usual. Some of the things you suggest are easy, others are kind of out of our control aren't they? Salaried people get their tax withheld before they see any money (at least where I live), and if you are self-employed and don't pay tax, the police will soon be at your door. I do what I can, given the straightjacket of society, and many here would be the same. Perhaps the most important change we can make is the change in our hearts and minds? Starting out, for me, anyway, with not being so hard on those who still have the slave mentality, and trying to help them at least see the shackles :)

[Bill Ryan]

RMorgan: No wonder why Atlas Shrugged is one of their favorite modern booksWasn't Ayn Rand a Rothshild mistress? That would make this book something that was commissioned to order.

No, that's incorrect.

The Ayn Rand story is here. Well-researched, contains much historical footage, and beautifully presented (as usual) by Adam Curtis, one of the best documentarians of modern times.


http://www.vimeo.com/57157436
Source: http://vimeo.com/57157436

[jiminii]

jiminii: I have this surety .. we are all ok

Me too


RMorgan: No wonder why Atlas Shrugged is one of their favorite modern books

Wasn't Ayn Rand a Rothshild mistress? That would make this book something that was commissioned to order.

Raf, you make some good points, as usual. Some of the things you suggest are easy, others are kind of out of our control aren't they? Salaried people get their tax withheld before they see any money (at least where I live), and if you are self-employed and don't pay tax, the police will soon be at your door. I do what I can, given the straightjacket of society, and many here would be the same. Perhaps the most important change we can make is the change in our hearts and minds? Starting out, for me, anyway, with not being so hard on those who still have the slave mentality, and trying to help them at least see the shackles :)

I think it only cost 100 dollars to make a corporation .. I did .. and then make youself a consultant .. and all the pay you get is put in the corporation and then pay yourself 50 dollars a month and put all expenses on the corporation ... and no more taxes

jim

[Lifebringer]

Bill you posted that "you haven't seen anything in the pages about "the ultimatiim for the elites to leave." Bill, don't you remember about 3 months ago, people here and around the world, when asked about the forgiving emotion that must be obtain, in order to have forgiveness? Well anyway a question was posed about mercy for those trapped because of blackmail, death threats or other reasons they deem reason to keep up the façade. Most here and in the world realized they too may have absorbed the material world trappings and they themselves became trapped. So for those who had the heart and mind of the material, that were trapped, we asked that they return to improve their karma in the new world for "mercy." The others that refused, we asked that they be "Divinely removed, because of the knowledge they know and was kept from us on the spiritual deliberately/intentful TO "POOF" BE GONE?

If we are going to practice walking in Christ Conscious of love, we can't have those here that have harmed so many intentfully. Since this is the time to put it out there and create and set the future for our children's future and any other Human incarnate being coming for the lessons, what WE sow now is so important and coming at the nick of time, that we cannot afford, nor can we delay, the Universal Justice of All to be judged, and since we cannot get with their understanding of so much hidden, we cannot trust those who should not be trusted. They have been bitten by the "greed, selfish bug, and it will take an act of GOD to change their hearts and minds, therefore with so much to recover/dis-cover, and the soul's need for progression for the next dimension, I myself and others of whom I'm sure have done this before and come to help, will keep the focus on the immediate suffering and needs of the poor, downtrodden, and broke in spirit. Some cannot take more of this, and it is necessary for prayer and giving it over to the Creator of All. He knows ALL. We are but pieces in the game/spark plugs of infinity that must be connected to make a change. A certain number multiplies tenfold and therefore, I believe that the removal by "them" is necessary if we are to develop the LOVE and heart/mind consciousness for consideration of continuation, during the future cataclysmic shift.

Anyway this is my opinion, and after so much thinking on it, and coming up with the same answer, I believe, this to be true.

They must be Divinely removed, and if we are to witness this as proof, so be it! With so many lies in the media, that we don't trust, we must go within when asking for help. They guide us and are with us at this time. Those that fell by the secret are here also to guide, especially the most recent murdered people, who have gone back at this time to bare witness of what is still going on and the ":pulse of the world Human population." Whether through justice of the global human planet population who is awakening and making the decisions to stand and fight for our existence as a peaceful species of being, working with ALL that is good in the Universe.

After all time is limitless, infinite, and we are all a part of it. Take your place, rev up and let's get er' done.

[Lifebringer]

On the depopulation mania: How do we know if the earth and all it's volcanic activity of expansion will remain in the same circumference? Who can verify if the earth has expanded with the population size, until the greed of the few ruined it?

Volcanoes are the earth's resurface and continent creator, depending on the activity when it implodes/explodes from the build up.

Minerals distributed, and soils turned? I'm thinking that since we've hit the 9billion mark in population, that if the hearts and minds are right, and God provides ALL that we need, if we needed more space and resources, and the asteroids held the water, and the volcanoes create the landforms/continental shelves, perhaps another one will be born...Cayce says Atlantis will rise, as well as Nostradamus, and in Revelation it says Behold a NEW Jerusalem?

WE don't know the whole plan of the Divine, they do. We have to keep our hearts tuned into what is right and just. After all we can do nothing that is not allowed, in either dimension and as soon as ye know the keys to the kingdom/Universe, we will be the better off. Until then just buckle up, change ahead for the GOOD.

[DNA]

Good stuff.

I see Samsara, I think buddhastavia vow


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uMHUSJDDTA

[David Topí]

the cabal was given an ultimatum to leave ... they already have mars terriformed and looks similar to earth ... and they are just giving us old photos of the planet to fool us ... they have copied all the master piece arts around the world and moved them there along with their gold ... as far as I know and apparently we hear a lot of resignations everywhere .. don't know it this is true ...

maybe someone here can look and find out

jim


Jim, as best I know this is not true.

Mars is certainly not terraformed to resemble Earth. And I have not heard or read anywhere that the cabal have been given an "ultimatum to leave".

They might have been archiving some material on the moon. There is some anecdotal evidence for that.

What's the source of your information? (Please quote links to other material if you've found it elsewhere on the internet. Or if it comes from what someone told you, please also let us know if that's the case. Otherwise, it makes statements like this hard to have a conversation about.)

He probably refers to the quote in one of Kerry's latest interviews that Mars resembles Phoenix, Arizona, and that it is impossible for somebody to differentiate if they are out there or in the US if they are not told. That what it came to mind...

[Hervé]

RMorgan: No wonder why Atlas Shrugged is one of their favorite modern booksWasn't Ayn Rand a Rothshild mistress? That would make this book something that was commissioned to order.

No, that's incorrect.

The Ayn Rand story is here. Well-researched, contains much historical footage, and beautifully presented (as usual) by Adam Curtis, one of the best documentarians of modern times.


http://www.vimeo.com/57157436
Source: http://vimeo.com/57157436

Well, all right...

... where the hell am I missing something?... :



From http://truth11.com/2011/06/14/atlas-shrugged-outlines-the-illuminati-purpose-and-plan-for-world-takeover/

Atlas Shrugged Outlines The Illuminati Purpose And Plan For World Takeover

THE ILLUMINATI PURPOSE AND PLAN FOR WORLD TAKEOVER

John Todd
The Conspiracy for world takeover is as old as man himself. The Illuminati, in recent history, has twice tried to control the world — in Napoleon’s day and during World War I.

Only about 5,000 people in the entire world know the true purpose of the Illuminati and its conspiracy to rule the earth. Their plan was written down in code, as a fictional novel, in 1957.

In the mid-1950′s Philippe Rothschild ordered one of his mistresses, Ayn Rand, an established authoress and philosopher, to undertake the writing of this code to the witches of the world. This novel, Atlas Shrugged, was never intended to be a best seller, although it turned out to be one.

The main characters of Atlas Shrugged are code names for individuals or companies. The code is as follows:

John Galt — Philippe Rothschild
Dagny Taggart — Ayn Rand
Dagny’s brother — The combined Railroad System
Ellis Wyatt — David Rockefeller
Hank Rearden — U.S. Steel, Bethlehem Steel
Francisco D’Anconia — Combined Copper Mines
Galt, D’Anconia, and the Pirate –Rothschild Tribunal
The Tribunal in the book went around convincing certain major corporation presidents of their philosophy and plan, getting them to bankrupt their own businesses. The owners of these companies would then vanish and leave with either Galt or D’Anconia to a retreat area in the Colorado mountain regions. “Colorado” is the code name for the “Bermuda Triangle”, the place where the key figures of the Illuminati will be when the world crashes.

There are six areas of society in which the Illuminati intends to rule:

1) Religious 4) Educational
2) Political 5) Military
3) Economic 6) Social
On August 1, 1972 Philippe Rothschild sent some papers to a meeting of the Council of 13 by State courier to San Antonio, Texas. Besides the usual pay-off notes and progress reports, the papers included a projected takeover plan. It read as follows:

1) Remove the President and Vice-President
2) Republican Successor throws election to Democratic
3) Democratic President gets following laws enacted:
a) Federal gun law taking weapons away from citizens.
b) Removal of tax exemption from churches (This is House Bill 41)
c) Genocide Act — Making it a crime equal to murder to convert a person from one religion or faith to another.
d) Presidential Martial Law Act — This allows the President in time of “National Emergency” to suspend the Constitution, Congress, and the economic system. The President, in essence, becomes dictator of America.
e) Anti-Hoarding Act — This makes it a felony to have more than 30-days supply of food, fuel or medicine stored up at one time.
f) Anti-Business Acts Equalization of Opportunity Act Fair Share Law Directive #10-289
President Carter was able to get some of these laws enacted before leaving office.

Plans for America: Make every person totally dependent of the government by:

1) Creating a pseudo-fuel shortage and food shortage.
2) Confiscate all guns.
3) Calling for “Helter Skelter” (All trucks, trains, planes, and ships, except Military, will stop. An army of some 200,000 white prisoners and motorcycle gang members will create mass insanity in the streets by bombing church buildings, raping, murdering, and other fear tactics.)
4) Declaring Martial Law. Activate the National Guard to keep order, after the public cries out for any kind of help. There will be one policeman to every 5 people. Once this “National Emergency” is declared, it will never be cancelled.
All countries except America will be sent against Israel for oil. The use of neutron bombs allows destruction of people while leaving all buildings, natural resources, and croplands intact. When the war is over, the world is to be ruled from Jerusalem.

In addition:

90% of the population of the US supposedly is to die in the 1st half hour of WWIII.
3,000 missiles are to hit the US within the first hour.
Most industrial cities are to be destroyed.
Russian missiles placed in major US Lakes and Rivers (up to ten Nuclear Warheads/Missile); put there with American Government knowledge and approval.
To date, approximately 90% of the Conspiracy plan has been fulfilled on schedule.


Bumping this extremely important post.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Yes -- Atlas Shrugged clearly spells out the Illuminati agenda! :)

But the book wasn't "commissioned to order". Ayn Rand was fiercely independent and impassioned, most certainly her own woman.
That was the point I was making. The Adam Curtis documentary is a fascinating portrait of who she really was. She certainly rubbed shoulders with some influential people -- but that was after the book was written.

[Hervé]

Then there this account from PA's own first hand witness:


I am the mother in law by marriage to Ayn Rand's adopted son Dr. Leonard Peikoff. I have done a lot of thinking about revealing what I know about these people. First, and formost they are all hypocrites. It is not simply happen stance that almost all of her inner core were Jews. They may not believe in god but they believe in genes. And what they all believe is that the Jews are by far smarter than anyone else in the world. They may not think god made them the chose people but they think the myth has served them well and they have the best genes in the world. Behind closed doors, at least in the 80s, they were always talking about the fact that 80% of all Nobel Prize winners were Jews etc. Dr. Peikoff got up and left a family wedding because the Jewish groom was marrying a Christian and no one had told him.

The bottom line belief of objectivism is that if everybody takes care of themself then no one would have to take care of any one else. This would work if everyone was born equal but they not. Not even equal opportunity. They also believe ideology. Atlas Shrugged is essentially a work of science fiction that is not even done well. It was really trashed by the critics when it came out. She was never accepted by Hollywood. None of the men she was turned on by would give her the time of day. That is why she left for New York. She was huge on self re invention.

She could get the seconds in their field to pay attention but not the greatly gifted. She posed nude for Salvadore Dali and these paintings were in her living room. They flattered her and they still weren't that good---you would not say she was sexy. Her need to have who she wants as sexual partner with young men 25 years or more her juniors would be considered child abuse. sound familiar. Dr. Peikoff was 17 when he met her and on the way to becoming a classical pianist when she totally derailed his life.

He did not marry until she died and at 54 he married a 31 year old and had his first child at 56. He then abandoned that child for a 25 year old at 65.

Atlas does really does not stand as literature, philosophy, or science fiction. There are huge linear reason problems if you really know what you are talking about. Most of these people function by having absolutely nothing to do with people by way of discussion or debate with people who do not agree with them.
Her interview with Phil Donohue and her total disregard for the audience is an example of what would be considered the contempt for the masses.

As far as I am concerned, and I have both the experience and the education, Ayn was both delusional and irrationally selfish giving not a fk for who she wounded in any way as long as she got what she wanted. She really never does deal with aspects of causality. Many of her followers had no real educational chops including Greenspan but who they knew and who they were willing to provide the reasons for the public being screwed. In essence, the cabal used her and still does--there is nothing of substance there except these people are paid extremely well.



Sigma,

To clarify -- my husband's daughter married Dr. Peikoff and they had a daughter together who was really angry at ten about her father and the new 25 year old. At 21, she is now living in New York City again and living well and a reporter for one of Rupert Murdock's newspapers. Now she has nothing critical to say of her father because that is where the money is. Rand did not adopt Dr. Peikoff until her husband died.

Nathaniel Brandon probably did more to damage the US education system than any one person I know. His creation of the concept of self esteem over the concept of self respect is IMHO a huge bullsh t idea that is so destructive. His so called doctoral degree came from a non accredited university at the time--it has since been accredited and in its beginning gave much credit for those with money for life experience. The concept of self esteem is that the pscyche must be protected from negative projections of other people at all costs. Ways of doing this is constant reinforcement of affirmations and self affirmations like god don't make no junk.

The problems with that is no matter how much you hear good job or good boy, the inner you still knows bull****. When education was focused on teaching skills that gave the self confidence it could actually learn to do things and learn to respect the things you do--we had sounder educational programs. Nathan was the one who actually conceived the idea of creating a philosopy out Rand's writings. At 25 he was her lover and they told both their spouses they were just going to have to put up with it. There were huge ramifications of this kind of behavior in the sexually repressed 50s. From his concepts of self esteem which is more style than substance, came the more acceptable rationalization for essentially being immoral regarding doing business. You have no obligation to be honest if the person is too stupid to be aware of your misrepresentations.

One of Ayn's first indepth character analysis was her fascination with a serial killer who she found to have the courage to fulfill his own needs first.

I am glad to see how you evolved from being young. I have never been able to get through Atlas and I have tried many times. I am also a serious science fiction buff and that is why I found her writings to be so lacking. Asminov had stilted characters in the Foundation Series but nothing to my mind compared to the unreality of hers. But I am also aware that my bias to her writings are intense.

When Peikoff divorced his wife--they don't believe in alimony etc.--she was hired to write the script for Atlas for a cool one million. She had never written anything before or since to my knowledge. She was immediately voted into the writers guild and allowed to attend and vote for the oscars. I can tell you if this was a known fact there would be huge bruhaha. A lot of writers of movies actually produced do not make the writers guild. I can not get thru Shrugged on Netflix yet and she has no screen credit for that script. It is interesting that this movie could not get made for 40 years. Why because the reality is that most people do not want to see it. The theaters for one week were essentially empty. As Abraham Maslow said good art in any form is universally recognized across all classes and cultures. I always bear that in mind. Randians are usually initially sucked in because they are told --- you are frustrated because you are so special and most people fail to see the greatness in you that you can rationally proclaim to exist. Prior to this, people did not go around proclaiming how good they are --- they had to demonstrate it.

Our economy is going down the tubes because the banksters were able to convince people that free market was god -- even though all the proof exists that the free market never existed and capitalism only works with checks and balances and so it goes.

The essence for me is that none of these people work their talk. They always want something for nothing for them because they deserve it because they are so special but everybody else deserves bupkus.




[...]

... Ayn Rand--objectivism. Essentially, if everybody takes care fo themself then nobody has to take care of anyone else. You can be born rich and intelligent, and stable and have all the goodies in life and still be struck down where you can't get up without help. Ask FDR. And so he created the March of Dimes just asking people to send one dime. And they got 13 million dollars worth of them and we got the polio vaccine. Part of a nation's consciousness, concern and caring. Pain can produce miracles when shared with vision and wisdom. Producing pain for the glory of it which is the advocate of a science fiction novel poorly received by the entire literary world of its day and turned into bank policy of the Federal Reserve by a Rand who stoked those who said she was brilliant by declaring them brilliant and strong. I personally knew Ayn Rand. I consider her the epitome of a fake and hypocrite. i am willing to defend that position to those who object with more specifics. I am using it as as analogy because I want you to see how dangerous a charismatic personality can be. Ayn Rand wrote a book, and not a very good one, and it has rippled through the thoughts of many of leaders with almost no critical thinking of the reality of its implications.

[...]

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Yes. This...


Her interview with Phil Donohue and her total disregard for the audience is an example of what would be considered the contempt for the masses.

As far as I am concerned, and I have both the experience and the education, Ayn was both delusional and irrationally selfish giving not a fk for who she wounded in any way as long as she got what she wanted.

... is totally the impression I got from Adam Curtis' portrait of her. I don't think I'd ever have wanted to be in the same room as her. She was fiercely (disproportionately!) intellectual, and almost certainly highly neurotic as well.

[Water33/6]

Hey folks,

Well, there´s always the thought around here that a minority, an elite, is exclusively responsible for all the mess we´re going through.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I can´t stand listening to it anymore. This is purely and simple escapism.

Sure, there´s an elite in control of most aspects of modern society...That´s true.

However, such controllers would never exist if we, the average people, didn´t support them.

The logic is simple: They have a business and we are their clients; No business can survive without clients.

So, people complain about the tyranny of bankers but still use banks; People complain all the time about pollution, but still drive cars; People complain GMOs, but still buy GMOs; People complain about misuse of public money, but still pay taxes; I could go on and on and on...

Sorry to say that, but if we´re in this bad situation, is because we, the average people, are cowards. I´m not talking about you or me, specifically, but about humanity as a whole.

You know, all of it makes me remember of a city which used to be the capitol of Brazil; Ouro Preto.

Back in the days when there was still formal slavery, the slaves outnumbered the masters by 100 to 1 over there. They could have easily taken over the city by themselves but they didn´t.

Things haven´t changed much, except that the chains that keep us slaved are invisible, and we have actually learned to love the whole thing.

This is like a love and hate relationship; We hate the elite, the controllers, but we are so used to being controlled that we simply can´t figure out how to break these invisible chains. Besides, the huge majority of people simply love the conveniences of modern society, which are services provided by them.

So, just think twice before exempting yourself from responsibility and blaming a small group for all this mess. When you do that, it may have more meaning than you ever imagined.

We´ll only have the moral right to blame them once we stop supporting them, in the meantime, our complains are just acts of alienation, hypocrisy and escapism...You know, you can´t complain about how much you hate pizza while eating pizza at the same time; It´s simply insane.

The funny thing is that they know it and this is exactly what gives them their distorted sense of ethics; They look to us as ungrateful useless eaters, who do nothing besides complaining. They believe we´re nothing without them and actually they are right to a certain point, because they´re the ones who provide the greatest conveniences of modern society which we love so much.

When these folks look in the mirror, they don´t see villains; They see misunderstood martyrs. They see us as cowards incapable of doing anything but complaining, while they see themselves as our guardians and saviors. They feel responsible for us, and see it as a burden; In fact, if they stop producing what they do, half of the human population will die in less than a year.

No wonder why Atlas Shrugged is one of their favorite modern books...I wouldn´t be surprised if they simply decided to leave, just like happened in the book, stopping all industrial production and leaving society to succumb among the chaos...Perhaps this is what those DUMBS are for.

Anyway, the fact is that, the world is ours to take; Like Ouro Preto´s slaves, we outnumber them 100 to 1. If we didn´t do anything to change it, it´s either because deep inside we don´t want, because we´re unable or because we´re babbit cowards.

Things are much simpler than most people can realize. What employees do when they are not happy with the company they work for? They go on strike.

If we´re unhappy with the system of which we´re the workers, then what´s stopping us from going on a massive global strike? The answer is nothing, but ourselves.

There´s no physical difference between slaves and masters, only psychological. The slave mentality is what´s stopping us from engaging a revolution and as long as we keep blaming everyone else for our disgrace, we´ll never get rid of it. A free man must be completely aware of his responsibilities and knows that freedom comes with a price. Are you ready to pay the price?

Raf.

Bravo... So very well said. I'm guilty of blaming also and post threads about "them".... When them are "us". Personal responsibility. "You are your governments" .... Bashar

[Daozen]

Well, there´s always the thought around here that a minority, an elite, is exclusively responsible for all the mess we´re going through.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I can´t stand listening to it anymore. This is purely and simple escapism.

Sure, there´s an elite in control of most aspects of modern society...That´s true.

However, such controllers would never exist if we, the average people, didn´t support them.

The logic is simple: They have a business and we are their clients; No business can survive without clients.

So, people complain about the tyranny of bankers but still use banks; People complain all the time about pollution, but still drive cars; People complain GMOs, but still buy GMOs; People complain about misuse of public money, but still pay taxes; I could go on and on and on...

This is one of the points I was going to make.

I'll add to it and say to Bill etc: Having clean water, agri, pollution etc tech is no longer contingent on the decisions of a small elite. A lot of that stuff is WELL into the commerical public domain now.

We may not have the fabled little black box that powers a house, but a Mag Lev VAWT is good enough for me now.

WE are the controllers.

[Bill Ryan]

:bump::bump::bump:

This is the companion movie to Baraka, posted here. Both are astonishing, moving pieces of work about the human condition and the world we share. HIGHLY recommended.


BARAKA... an amazing and thought-provoking tour de force (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?4458-BARAKA...-an-amazing-and-thought-provoking-tour-de-force&highlight=baraka)



D0g1zS9tERrz

[Satori]

:bump::bump::bump:

This is the companion movie to Baraka, posted here. Both are astonishing, moving pieces of work about the human condition and the world we share. HIGHLY recommended.


BARAKA... an amazing and thought-provoking tour de force (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?4458-BARAKA...-an-amazing-and-thought-provoking-tour-de-force&highlight=baraka)



D0g1zS9tERrz

Wow! Just, wow!

[Tintin]

Both Baraka made in 1992, and Samsara made in 2011 are now in the Avalon Library :muscle: YES!:whoo::cheers:

Links:

BARAKA: https://avalonlibrary.net/BARAKA_%28by_Ron_Fricke%29_%281992%29.mp4

SAMSARA: https://avalonlibrary.net/SAMSARA_%28by_Ron_Fricke%29_%282011%29.mp4