Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

[Tony]

Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

Pleiadians, Extraterrestrials, Greys, Reptilians, Archons, Atlantians, Mars bases, and any ballpoint pen laying around... have Absolutely no reality! Like the image of ourselves, they are all a figment of our imagination and in our consciousness - or rather, in someone else's!

Anyone who says they do exist is telling you a big fib ;)

Why is this? Perhaps they've fallen under the mystic spell of whispering “whistle blowers” who also fell under someone else's mystic spell? Perhaps they want fame and recognition? Either they believe what they have been told, or they have seen something and believe it is real, which is not. Or they are making it up...

Here are the simple reasons why.

If there are Pleiadians, Extra-terrestrials, Greys, Reptilians, Archons, Atlantians etc, they exist in exactly the same way as we do – in Consciousness, in the mind.
Consciousness is the bit between outer phenomena and our true essence.
Consciousness can be twisted or misdirected by ourselves and others, so that anything can appear to be real, because we identify so strongly with 'our' thoughts! Or rather, what is put in our minds...that is the role of the magician!
This is all about Neuro Linguistic Programming: people are being led by the nose, to believe in things that have actually no absolute reality.

If we keep believing in these things as real, we will never escape from this compounded illusion...this nightmare! Oh! I forgot - it's fun... “Bring it on!”...? Bring what on? More suffering?

The imagination of the mind is a powerful tool: it can be used to analyse itself, or be made to invent and believe in all sorts of fantasies.

Every single thing you see, hear, touch, taste or smell – everything that is perceived through the senses - is only experienced in the mind. It is not experienced “out there”! Information passes through the senses to the brain and the mind interprets...by the time the mind looks out there, “out there” has changed, but it happens so quickly that we don't notice it – in the way that a film strip looks like a continuous image but is made up of individual frames.
Through propaganda, ideas have been placed in the mind and we maintain this through identification with these sets of thoughts..not all your thoughts are your own!

Let's look at the “believable” outward phenomena first.
Everything in the universe has no permanent nature.
Everything is created by causes and conditions
This includes our bodies, and every other sentient being's body, in any dimension or relative reality - whether we can see them or not, on any frequency - they are all 'created' by causes and conditions. Everything – including bodies – is created: it has a beginning, it has to be maintained, it deteriorates and then it has an end.
So everything has no permanent reality!

As some of you know, we are not this body, but let's look inside.

All creatures are sentient – meaning that they have a mind, which has conscious awareness...even a slow slug. We are only aware of events taking place in the mind.
Most sentient beings believe what they see, hear etc is reality. Solid. Never changing.
Beings of a higher level are able (only if they look) to be aware of a refined, lucid 'being' beyond normal consciousness.
A human body is one such vehicle to realise one's true essence. No doubt there are other beings with more or less the same potential.

All beings have an absolute enlightened essence.
There is no thing more than this.
If Pleiadians, Extra-terrestrials, Greys, Reptilians, Archons etc have a relative presence as we do, they must all wish to realise their true nature – but dwell in great or less confusion.

If you say Pleiadians, Extra-terrestrials, Greys, Reptilians or Archons etc exist, prove it!
Tell us - what special knowledge did they impart to you :cool:?
If you state they exist, the onus is on you to prove it.
Oh and by the way, saying “I've met them,” is not proof!

If you keep looking outside yourself, you will never find yourself.
Those who do know, look into themselves and find there is nothing to find.
We are that pure, lucid knowing.

This bizarre toying with fantasy Extra-terrestrials stops people looking at what is actually (provably) going on here and now. Every so often, another piece of "info" hits the forum, and off we go in circles with our “Oh yes it is!” and “Oh no it isn't!”.

But if you regard that nothing in the mind has any reality, reality is the observation of that non-reality.

We are like silly sheep, who have gone astray...it all comes down to a question of reality.

All the best
Tony

[Sirius White]

The biggest issue with the whole whistleblowing and channeling phenomenon, is we tend to come to major conclusions based off either false, or half-true information. This includes people with your viewpoint, and those in opposite viewpoint.

For example, Pleadian beings are very much real, and yes they have been here. BUT......they are not 24/7 here to help us ascend and destroy underground facilities. They communicate in subtle ways to those whose souls are connected to them. The rest is up to those here who do the work on the ground. In otherwords- NOTHING IN THE UNIVERSE IS GIVEN, it is EARNED.

So in general- these things, these false images of love and light. The deception so to speak (new age). Yea, its true. That doesn't mean that the whole thing can be simply discounted, because any time you see an effort to mislead people via false hopes, or through manipulation of images, it usually means there is something very true that is being hidden through these subversive means. An example? Christ, the Christos, the ability for MAN to bring the DIVINE into the MATERIAL PLANE- which before the times of Christ, was almost unheard of to the gnostic sects. This Truth was VERY conveniently hidden by many myths, prophets, channeling, and of course the creation of the religion that we know of today. In which it was all perverted and inverted.

This is a common and repeating pattern.

These beings are real, but you want to know the deception? They would never have you sit there, worship them, or wait for them, or love them thinking they are going to be the solution. They would in fact, and do so- keep their presence a secret, and furthermore at a VERY SUBTLE Level because they understand true spiritual and physical evolution does not come from intervention, and/or by showing themselves. They know VERY well our habits- and how we tend to worship and revere anything that appears to be above ourselves. The beings who do embellish in this, even when appearing to give positive messages are actually beings who have mastered aspect of the light to such an extent where they can BEND it to their will, to create ILLUSION. Euphoria can be stimulated by stroking the ENS/ANS system, and thus some people when encountering these beings are stimulated at this level and are essentially at a docile level of believing they have attained bliss by being in the presence of these beings. This is NOT to say that truly, enlightened and awe-inspiring beings do not exist. BUT many of these false teachings found in pseudo-new age ufo movements are there to help do some things, in particular : Cover up the truth of the alien presence, make people rely on false hope, make people NOT TAKE ACTION IN THE NOW, make people forget about their OWN DIVINITY by admiring those who seem to have more.

My point? Do not discount the whole phenomenon because 90% of the followers of these belief systems are choosing to dis-empower themselves. IT IS possible to understand the truth of hyper dimensional, multi dimensional, astral, and extra-terrestial contact, AS WELL as be extremely grounded, physical, and CONSCIOUS of ones own surroundings. It has taken me years since my first awakening- but there is nothing more rewarding than the ability to harmonize as above so below, in all its rainbow prism.

Yes, most of the mentioned beliefs...well, they are there to distract you from the truth.YOUR PHYSICAL LIFE HERE IN THE NOW. YOUR BEAUTIFUL EXPERIENCE AS A DIVINE SPARK EXPERIENCING PHYSICALITY.

Do you want to know my opinion of how to connect to Source the most direct and easiest way? By not running away..into angels, aliens, astral projection, or whatever. But rather....into the NOW, the PHYSICAL PRESENT MOMENT. EVERY SINGLE thing in your life is an expression of your divine intent to exist.

[Trinity]

Hi Tony,

Hope all is well..

Firstly, How do you come to explain our ancient ancestors knowledge of our solar systems and astrology in general actually..
If the sumerian tablets were by chance deciphered correctly then I think that may well actually pose some interesting questions..
African were used as tools, slaves to develop landscapes, platforms in which white man "thrived" for thousands of years..
Is it not possible that the Annunaki did the same with us..?

This is of course if you are placing the Annunaki in the same frame..?

Kindest regards

Alex

[Tony]

The Divine as one could call it, which OUR true nature is pure, beyond the material, it never changes.

Everything else, Pleadian, underground tunnels, ball point pens etc exist because of causes and conditions!
If there are Pleiadians, they are conscious like us, like all sentient beings.

Bring your proof to the table.

[PurpleLama]

But, but, but, Mr. Tony, I am a Pleadian!

Of course, this isn't to say I can prove my own Absolute Existence, even to myself!

[Tony]

Hi Tony,

Hope all is well..

Firstly, How do you come to explain our ancient ancestors knowledge of our solar systems and astrology in general actually..
If the sumerian tablets were by chance deciphered correctly then I think that may well actually pose some interesting questions..
African were used as tools, slaves to develop landscapes, platforms in which white man "thrived" for thousands of years..
Is it not possible that the Annunaki did the same with us..?

This is of course if you are placing the Annunaki in the same frame..?

Kindest regards

Alex

Hello Alex,

You are talking about a knowledge of a relative existence.
It's not easy to get one's head around what IS reality!


All the best,
Tony

¤=[Post Update]=¤


But, but, but, Mr. Tony, I am a Pleadian!

Of course, this isn't to say I can prove my own Absolute Existence, even to myself!


Hello Purple Lama,

Saying you are a Pleadian, proves this is a relative existence the moment you say "I"!


Regards,
Tony

[Anchor]

LOL - I like this game.

This is also proof that despite the oft whispered rumors of the Pie'n'eals, they and the rest, also do not Absolutely exist.

[Tony]

Nothing is real!

¤=[Post Update]=¤


LOL - I like this game.

This is also proof that despite the oft whispered rumors of the Pie'n'eals, they and the rest, also do not Absolutely exist.



Absolutely!

[Tarka the Duck]

Just because something is real does not mean it is true.

[Hawkwind]

I agree that Pleadians et al don't exist any more or any less than human beings exist, any more or any less than this interchange of posts on this forum exists. I am, however, a bit confused as to why you seemingly devote so much energy to trying to alter the nature of other people's delusions. Other people don't exist any more or any less than you or I exist as separate conscience. Right? They are merely creations of mind. Right? Then doesn't the energy you put into changing other people's delusions merely draw you more deeply into your own delusion? If not, prove it!

[Tarka the Duck]

I agree that Pleadians et al don't exist any more or any less than human beings exist, any more or any less than this interchange of posts on this forum exists. I am, however, a bit confused as to why you seemingly devote so much energy to trying to alter the nature of other people's delusions. Other people don't exist any more or any less than you or I exist as separate conscience. Right? They are merely creations of mind. Right? Then doesn't the energy you put into changing other people's delusions merely draw you more deeply into your own delusion? If not, prove it!



.......deleted.

[gooty64]

Sorry OP, I don't get this one. Nope not resonating. I'm going over to Galactic Channelings.....:ufo:

[Tony]

I agree that Pleadians et al don't exist any more or any less than human beings exist, any more or any less than this interchange of posts on this forum exists. I am, however, a bit confused as to why you seemingly devote so much energy to trying to alter the nature of other people's delusions. Other people don't exist any more or any less than you or I exist as separate conscience. Right? They are merely creations of mind. Right? Then doesn't the energy you put into changing other people's delusions merely draw you more deeply into your own delusion? If not, prove it!


Hello Hawkwind,

Altering far from it, merely clarifying. We have a responsibility to others, it's called compassion. This is a natural radiance of pure being...we all have it!
Karmically we have been brought together, so we work together. People have a choice to stay suffering or not. Everyone in their own time will wake up, we all need a helping hand.

The more possibilities presented to the mind, the more choice there is.

This pure being has three qualities, it is untainted, knowing and compassionate. That is the proof. It has the ability to respond to others needs. Should one sit back and not counter the deception being played on people, certainly not. That is why we are here.


All the best,
Tony

[Wind]

There is no spoon?

[Tarka the Duck]

There is no spoon?


Well, it will still hurt if you poke it in your eye!

[Cristian]

Hi pie'n'eal ,

Your buddhist views are a refreshing change from the usual perception of things.

They dont exist but then again neither do we.

However, I do want to ask you something...
If you see a burning house with 3 kids stuck inside would you go and help them? If yes why? If all is just a dream? And i agree it's a dream.

If you see a child about to be raped by a guy , or maybe by a reptilian, and you feel is in your power to stop that from happening ...would you step into duality and help him?
Is true that karma and stuff is the reason some of us experience this dream as a nightmare; so it's true it may be best, when looking at the big picture, not to intervene.

But the overhelming compassion and love you feel... It's hard to stay and meditate while everything is going downhill isn't it? How do one solves this paradox?


---------------
LE
didnt saw this when i posted , there is my answer i guess :thumb:



Altering far from it, merely clarifying. We have a responsibility to others, it's called compassion. This is a natural radiance of pure being...we all have it!
Karmically we have been brought together, so we work together. People have a choice to stay suffering or not. Everyone in their own time will wake up, we all need a helping hand.

The more possibilities presented to the mind, the more choice there is.

This pure being has three qualities, it is untainted, knowing and compassionate. That is the proof. It has the ability to respond to others needs. Should one sit back and not counter the deception being played on people, certainly not. That is why we are here.


All the best,
Tony

[Tony]

Hi pie'n'eal ,

Your buddhist views are a refreshing change from the usual perception of things.

They dont exist but then again neither do we.

However, I do want to ask you something...
If you see a burning house with 3 kids stuck inside would you go and help them? If yes why? If all is just a dream? And i agree it's a dream.

If you see a child about to be raped by a guy , or maybe by a reptilian, and you feel is in your power to stop that from happening ...would you step into duality and help him?
Is true that karma and stuff is the reason some of us experience this dream as a nightmare; so it's true it may be best, when looking at the big picture, not to intervene.

But the overhelming compassion and love you feel... It's hard to stay and meditate while everything is going downhill isn't it? How do one solves this paradox?




Hello Chris,
This is a huge important subject you bring up, and it is to do with understanding the unity of two truths. One is the relative truth, of things seeming to exist and the other the absolute truth, that all things and mind are empty by nature. We have to respect the relative truth are work within it, as we are in this body. This body needs food and shelter, if we have the energy and generosity we can help others.


Meditation is just 'being'. One can 'be' in a cave, or one can 'be' with others it make no difference. There are many levels of understanding this.

Though one may see someone suffering or having a good time because of their karma, If we are in 'their' vicinity we are part of 'their' karma, for that moment....and they are part of ours!



Tony

[PurpleLama]

But, but, but, Mr. Tony, I am a Pleadian!

Of course, this isn't to say I can prove my own Absolute Existence, even to myself!


Hello Purple Lama,

Saying you are a Pleadian, proves this is a relative existence the moment you say "I"!


Regards,
Tony

Hmmm....

I'm not sure so much that it's the "I" so much as the "am".

[Tony]

When one understands the two truths, everything becomes a symbolic teacher. Everything (a seemingly reality) has the nature of not truly existing (an absolute nature).
Like ourselves, we have a seeming reality- a feeling of me, which seems to exist, but we have an absolute reality which is constant which is just pure awareness.

Our absolute reality cannot be said to exist or not exist. If we say "I exist" we still have a duality. We cannot say "I do not exist" because who is saying this!
This is a very subtle business. In meditation there is just pure perception, there is no time to say " I am perceiving" because then one comes out of pure perception!

In the two truths one reflects the other, by virtue of one the other is known.


Tony

[Tony]

But, but, but, Mr. Tony, I am a Pleadian!

Of course, this isn't to say I can prove my own Absolute Existence, even to myself!


Hello Purple Lama,

Saying you are a Pleadian, proves this is a relative existence the moment you say "I"!


Regards,
Tony

Hmmm....

I'm not sure so much that it's the "I" so much as the "am".


Ah! If it is "am" then that is "being".
A Pleadian also is "being" but are too busy mucking around in flying saucers, to know what to do! If they exist, compassion doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary.
Those that claim to speak to the Pleadians, don't tell us much do they? Compassion doesn't seem to be part of the 'chosen one's' vocabulary either.


It's good to "be",

Tony

[RunningDeer]

Thank you for the thread and for others posting. You've all contributed to further clarity.

I want to say something more, but there's awareness of nothing more; just gratitude and intermittent silence. :wave:

[PurpleLama]

Awww, all the pleadians I know left the keys to the flying saucers back on the home planet, around here they tend to drive old rattle-traps, you know? As for compassion, not a one of them wouldn't give you the shirt off his back, and when you get down to it, that's where the rubber meets the road. Without the right actions to back it up, it ain't worth much.

That being said, I will recognize what drives you to beat your noggin up against the brick wall of people's minds. Love to you, my friend. :D

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Hi, Tony -- you sure spend a lot of time fussing over things that don't exist! :)

[Hawkwind]

Seems to me that on the level of the absolute there are no others, there is only one. If a deception is being played, it is only a deception this one consciousness is playing on and with itself. Within the deception/illusion/game suffering exists, but then so does compassion. Outside the deception/illusion/game there is no suffering, because there is no any-thing, only "no-thing-ness". At least for me, at least for now, rather than attempting to free myself (and any alleged others) from the deception, I'm seeking to be in the world but not of it- ie. play the game and still recognize it as such. Grabbing people by the shoulders, shaking them and screaming "Wake up!" could perhaps be viewed as an act of compassion...seems a bit heavy-handed to me though :P

Thank you sir, may I have another?

Love ya-

Rick


I agree that Pleadians et al don't exist any more or any less than human beings exist, any more or any less than this interchange of posts on this forum exists. I am, however, a bit confused as to why you seemingly devote so much energy to trying to alter the nature of other people's delusions. Other people don't exist any more or any less than you or I exist as separate conscience. Right? They are merely creations of mind. Right? Then doesn't the energy you put into changing other people's delusions merely draw you more deeply into your own delusion? If not, prove it!


Hello Hawkwind,

Altering far from it, merely clarifying. We have a responsibility to others, it's called compassion. This is a natural radiance of pure being...we all have it!
Karmically we have been brought together, so we work together. People have a choice to stay suffering or not. Everyone in their own time will wake up, we all need a helping hand.

The more possibilities presented to the mind, the more choice there is.

This pure being has three qualities, it is untainted, knowing and compassionate. That is the proof. It has the ability to respond to others needs. Should one sit back and not counter the deception being played on people, certainly not. That is why we are here.


All the best,
Tony

[Oouthere]

This is a great subject! And a bit difficult to put your mind around.

Being an abductee with training and testing by "them," this gives a little additional insight into how our consciousness can be manipulated. It rather frightens me to know that this whole game could be a pre-programmed experience of which we have zero free will, but due to the programming it appears we do. Meeting Dowser Dan put a completely new perspective on things as he and I have had some identical experiences concerning “them.”
One involved being captured by a reptilian and held in a country cabin for several days. We both remember being alone by a river/creek and ambushed by this huge reptilian. We both awoke in a cabin with other captured men. We both remember being lead through an Army base with helicopters and not being able to warn or ask for help.

We had the same emotions, everything. The only difference I can come-up with is he believes it was a real experience and I feel it was a matrix type environment. The perceptive evidence leans heavily toward a pre-programmed experience in which you are witnessing the event but think you are actually involved. It may be beyond our abilities to figure this out….

Rich

[greybeard]

Some scientists say that matter does not exist--- everything is consciousness ie a projection of the mind.

Ramesh Balskar said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"

inherent in that, is that the illusion is supposed to seem real and we are supposed to act as though it is real.
There would not be illusion-- duality-- without the ego.
So at the highest level, yes its not true as it is ever changing, only Truth is permanent.
However we must act according to our own spiritual level.

This video may help.
Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUU3p5iHMA

[Carmody]

There is no spoon?


Well, it will still hurt if you poke it in your eye!

Define 'hurt'.

good luck with all that, whatever good and luck and all might be.

[Simonm]

Wow. As the oracle says, "this is baking my noodle". :)
I am just starting out learning falun gong /dafa and reading about Buddha law is similar in your post. I feel like a baby having to re-learn all over again. Many thanks for this thread. I, if I actually exist have a long way to go it seems. :)

[RunningDeer]

For those using iPads, this is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUU3p5iHMA&list=HL1346424696&feature=mh_lolz


Some scientists say that matter does not exist--- everything is consciousness ie a projection of the mind.

Ramesh Balskar said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"

inherent in that, is that the illusion is supposed to seem real and we are supposed to act as though it is real.
There would not be illusion-- duality without the ego.
So at the highest level yes its not true as it is ever changing only Truth is permanent.
However me must act according to our own spiritual level.

This video may help.
Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUU3p5iHMA

[Tony]

-------

Hi, Tony -- you sure spend a lot of time fussing over things that don't exist! :)


Hello Bill,

You are right, I do fuss. It's good to be as precise as one can.
One increases one's intelligence by cutting out superfluous hearsay on forums. We can come to reality by investigating what the true nature of that which we believe to be real, when it is not. Time examining what is real and what is not, is well spent.

The interest in this thread says everything!


All the best,
Tony

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

Pleiadians, Extraterrestrials, Greys, Reptilians, Archons, Atlantians, Mars bases, and any ballpoint pen laying around... have Absolutely no reality! Like the image of ourselves, they are all a figment of our imagination and in our consciousness - or rather, in someone else's!

Anyone who says they do exist is telling you a big fib ;)

It is possible my friend to plumb too deeply, to over-analyse, and in so doing arrive at spurious conclusions and a kind of parallax that distorts ultimate truth... To think 'I]I exist, but does the world exist, or is it just a figment..?'[/I] Etc. It is as productive as chasing one's tail... a useful exercise for a while, for in chasing one's tail there can be an important lesson to learn insofar as contemplation, and evaluation of self, the reality of self, of reality itself, and one's place in it. But don't chase too long, you'll just end up where you began.

Now, to say a ballpoint pen has no reality is not true. And I'll tell you why. All that exists is energy: substance, matter, thought, even light is just energy, energy in variable and changeable states. Thought exists because it is energy, and that ball-point pen exists because it is also energy. Energy, of any kind, has no permanence in state or structure, but this does not make all that consists of energy 'unreal'.

Realities, all realities, all that there is, is energy. And it is ever changing. Therefore nothing actually is unreal, it is just a manifestation of energy in one state, form, or another.

To say that this world has no reality, that our 3-dimensional reality is merely an illusion, not real, is somewhat missing the point. It is real in the sense that it is energy, ergo: it exists. It is an ordered state that consists of physical, tangible effects; is governed by physical, tangible laws. However it is not the only reality/energy. Of course not. As far as densities go the third-density earth-plane is about the lowest form of reality in regards to sentient existence.


If there are Pleiadians, Extra-terrestrials, Greys, Reptilians, Archons, Atlantians etc, they exist in exactly the same way as we do – in Consciousness, in the mind.

I'm confused here. Is it your argument that they don't exist because you have trouble believing in such a 'reality', or that they can't exist, because by your definition of existence, 'nothing actually exists' ??

Friend, with the highest respect, I believe you have muddled the fundamental truth of our actual reality, in that we are incarnated beings - spiritual/thought beings - consciousness exactly as you say, who have projected our consciousnesses (incarnated) into a dense lower plane, a plane of forgetfulness, of toil, and spiritual entropy if you will. It is the kindergarten of the soul, actually.

But bear with me a moment. By your thought system it's quite possible that you remember this well, perhaps too well, in that your perceived actual reality is not native to here, that only thought/consciousness/spirit matters... And you'd be correct of course.

But you are here, attempting to have a physical incarnate experience in order to spiritually evolve, grow in compassion and humility - to serve others - and shed karma. That's what it's all about. But 'here' is by definition of the adverb 'a place'. It's no less 'real' than anywhere else. But it exists because you perceive that it exists. It is just a different type of reality. There are many more, and most far finer, brighter, and spiritually refined than 'here'.

Now I don't wish to preach. Plenty here won't understand that, much less believe it. And that's ok. Each to his or her own, and in accordance with his or her own understanding.

You stand where you stand, because you've walked where you've walked...


Consciousness can be twisted or misdirected by ourselves and others, so that anything can appear to be real, because we identify so strongly with 'our' thoughts! Or rather, what is put in our minds...that is the role of the magician!
This is all about Neuro Linguistic Programming: people are being led by the nose, to believe in things that have actually no absolute reality.

Many are thus programmed, that's true, Many are just walking through life in their sleep.

However, the things we encounter in our daily lives are tangible, are real, and just because some of us might encounter something out of our expected 'circle of reality', something mysterious, extraordinary, esoteric, does not mean that we are suffering from some kind of programming effect, some delusion...

Don't forget, people (well most of them!) are intelligent creatures, with acute and well-honed senses, and a fine grasp of the reality of their environment... which often makes the extraordinary, even paranormal when they encounter it as manifesting as especially real. (Because it's an unknown, and conflicts with our established paradigm, this can often be frightening).

Now, 'programming' of ideas (propaganda) is absolutely true. But I would argue that the general direction of programming over the years has been to persuade us that these things 'are NOT real', that they are a product of imagination, conscious figment, and to some degree crackpot craziness. I hate to say it, friend, that perhaps, in some degree, you may perhaps have been drawn in by the very programming you are trying to expose and explain here.


If we keep believing in these things as real, we will never escape from this compounded illusion...this nightmare! Oh! I forgot - it's fun... “Bring it on!”...? Bring what on? More suffering?

I'm afraid, in my view, a critical catalyst in how we break through this 'compounded illusion' is almost a complete 360 of this statement... In seeing the greater beyond, the greater reality out there, many shall at last turn inward to see what it is inside.

Only from the outer can the inner be most deeply touched.


The imagination of the mind is a powerful tool: it can be used to analyse itself, or be made to invent and believe in all sorts of fantasies.

Am I right in your supposition: that if one hasn't received an experience or perceived a reality that it does not (or at least might not) exist?

There is nothing more dangerous to a individual's mind/ego than thinking one's own paradigm as the sovereign one. Bad things happen when one tangles their thought in a complex where all others, the world itself, and the constructed realities of everyone else, seems false.


Every single thing you see, hear, touch, taste or smell – everything that is perceived through the senses - is only experienced in the mind.

I agree. Experientially this is true.


It is not experienced “out there”!

Untrue. Very frighteningly untrue. Would not such a philosophy furnish one with the idea that there is no accountability, no responsibility for their actions? Consider: I think therefore I am, yet all other people think not, and all the world is unreal...

If there is any illusion we should be careful in guarding against, it is in falsely believing that the world is not real, that it is a playground, and that all that we say and do here does not matter.


Information passes through the senses to the brain and the mind interprets...by the time the mind looks out there, “out there” has changed, but it happens so quickly that we don't notice it – in the way that a film strip looks like a continuous image but is made up of individual frames.

This is merely an effect of our biology, allowing us to hold and grasp our reality, and interact with it. It is merely the tool by which we must experience the world. It is unimportant, and contains no new or specific insight that would shed any light on the greater mysteries.


Through propaganda, ideas have been placed in the mind and we maintain this through identification with these sets of thoughts..not all your thoughts are your own!

I see this as unimportant. Whatever information, belief, or ideology one subscribes to has little bearing on the only thing that matters: that which resides in us all when you boil away all the detritus and refuse of human propaganda, as you say, all the philosophies and complexes... and that is love. (That is 'all you need' said John Lennon. And he was right).


Let's look at the “believable” outward phenomena first.
Everything in the universe has no permanent nature.
Everything is created by causes and conditions
This includes our bodies, and every other sentient being's body, in any dimension or relative reality - whether we can see them or not, on any frequency - they are all 'created' by causes and conditions. Everything – including bodies – is created: it has a beginning, it has to be maintained, it deteriorates and then it has an end.
So everything has no permanent reality!

Going back to what I said before, 'everything is reality', not nothing. Reality is energy, and energy is transient. Nothing actually ends, rather it simply changes...


All creatures are sentient – meaning that they have a mind, which has conscious awareness...even a slow slug. We are only aware of events taking place in the mind.
Most sentient beings believe what they see, hear etc is reality. Solid. Never changing.
Beings of a higher level are able (only if they look) to be aware of a refined, lucid 'being' beyond normal consciousness.
A human body is one such vehicle to realise one's true essence. No doubt there are other beings with more or less the same potential.

Spot on. I note you say 'other beings' at the end, which suggests you are at least open to the possibly of Pleiadians, greys, and whatever else... :)


All beings have an absolute enlightened essence.
There is no thing more than this.
If Pleiadians, Extra-terrestrials, Greys, Reptilians, Archons etc have a relative presence as we do, they must all wish to realise their true nature – but dwell in great or less confusion.

Some perhaps do. But try to imagine that this reality, this earth-plane that we live on as the realm of duality. The paths of thinking I follow holds that the higher spheres, the higher frequencies of existence beyond our own, contain those beings who have shed duality and embrace the universal constant of unity.

This is the next gradient in our evolution, upon whose threshold we as a planet now stand. In unity one merges purely with infinite intelligence and love, and the polarities thereby of 'confusion' (in which we are currently steeped) no longer exist. Now I don't claim this to be true of 'negative', self-serving, beings, such as the so-called Archons, reptilians etc. These, we are led to believe, (if they are real) would be mainly fourth-density, where polarity can still exist.


If you say Pleiadians, Extra-terrestrials, Greys, Reptilians or Archons etc exist, prove it!
Tell us - what special knowledge did they impart to you :cool:?
If you state they exist, the onus is on you to prove it.
Oh and by the way, saying “I've met them,” is not proof!

I cannot prove their existence to you anymore than I can prove your existence to me. I don't know if all the said claims of these ET races are real or not. I know some are, I've had contact experiences. I can prove nothing. Nor do I particularly wish to.

But the proof/truth is out there :rolleyes:

The positive ETs/EDs have done more than enough to provide for everyone to believe, consider and know... if they would let the petals of their inner minds open and flower just a tad.

Yet they offer never enough proof to be absolutely irrefutable to even the naysayers. Why? Because this would contravene a very important nature of our existence: free will. It is down to our personal, spiritual free will to accept/believe these realities into our paradigm. They have provided enough for those who are ready to (of course) believe it, but nothing blatant and unassailable (such a mass landings) so as to damage those who are not spiritually/mentally ready, who wish rather to continue about their daily spiritual, karmic lessons untouched and unaffected by a reality they are not yet ready to absorb.

This is why the ETs have done what they have done. The earth is a mixing-pot of many entities from many places in amnesic incarnation... striving to achieve goals of spiritual understanding in hardship and ignorance/separation (duality) from the Creator... and to aspire through wisdom, love, unity and purification to merge back with that Creator, whence we came. This is what it's all about. This is our reality. Lol, in one simple sentence, that is in fact is the meaning of life (on earth at this time).

The ETs understand this and know not to interfere with our natural progression - graduation to our next spiritual level (yes I'm talking about 'ascension' to a higher density, or whatever label you want to use). The fact that we have reached such a pitiful state, verging on self-destruction that could jeopardize this process, may suggest a potential change in policy. I don't know. Time will tell.



If you keep looking outside yourself, you will never find yourself.

Partly so, I agree. But Looking only within is to see what's already there.

From looking without, experiencing without, in touching, tasting, knowing what's there, is to learn the important lesson of what is separate, what else there is: it is to sample what we lack, and to understand what we wish to gain.

It is an experiential universe. If it was the Creator's purpose for its separated self (us) merely to look within, there would have been created no tangible universe to explore, no outward lessons to learn, and no incarnations to live.

Yes I agree, we must look within along the way, to discover our growing shape, to see what we are becoming. But 'growing' is the key word here. Only from an outer source, a stimulus, an absorption of spiritual nutrition, if you will, can we grow. In growing, changing, we leave behind what was, and reach ahead for what yet is.

You have great wisdom friend. Absolutely! And we all seek in our own way, however there is a danger is seeking too far, analyzing too deeply. The waters in the well of mystery are deep, but plunge too far and you hit bedrock.



This bizarre toying with fantasy Extra-terrestrials stops people looking at what is actually (provably) going on here and now. Every so often, another piece of "info" hits the forum, and off we go in circles with our “Oh yes it is!” and “Oh no it isn't!”.

There is too much confusion, I agree. This is because there's too much disinformation. Yet the aspiration remains... Extra-terrestrials, the truth, the reality, the nature of otherness out there in the universe. I cannot perhaps convince you they are here, always have been here, and if not for them we would not even be here! That's another story, but suffice to say Humanity above all else desires Unity. Needs it! Unity with each other, unity with 'out there'. The ultimate unity is to touch and merge with All That Is.

Peace.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Hi, Tony -- you sure spend a lot of time fussing over things that don't exist! :)


Hello Bill,

You are right, I do fuss. It's good to be as precise as one can.
One increases one's intelligence by cutting out superfluous hearsay on forums. We can come to reality by investigating what the true nature of that which we believe to be real, when it is not. Time examining what is real and what is not, is well spent.

The interest in this thread says everything!


All the best,
Tony

Mind games. :)

Angels on a pin...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin?





The question, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" has been used many times as a dismissal of medieval angelology in particular, and of scholasticism in general. The phrase has been used also to criticize figures such as Duns Scotus and Thomas Aquinas. Another variety of the question is: "How many angels can sit on the head of a pin?" In modern usage, this question also serves as a metaphor for wasting time debating topics of no practical value.

(article continues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin?)...)

[Tarka the Duck]

-------

Hi, Tony -- you sure spend a lot of time fussing over things that don't exist! :)

One person's "fussing" would be another person's "attention to detail"…it's a matter of degree and personal interpretation.
After all, without nit-pickers, we'd be riddled with lice ;)
The devil is in the detail, as they say!

As Michelangelo (a renowned perfectionist!) wrote: "Genius is an infinite capacity for taking pains in whatever one is involved."
If we consider that something matters, I suppose we do run the risk of others labelling us as "fussing"…is a professional concert pianist "fussing" when they practise in order to be note perfect? Give me a "fussy" brain surgeon any day.

The thing that matters here is to be able to give sufficient attention to the little things while not losing sight of the bigger perspective: details
are only significant when they contribute to an end and are not a distraction.

Sorry sorry sorry - this is off topic…:yield:
I should be talking about the the content of the OP… "Form is emptiness. Emptiness is form".

[truth4me]

Tony has a right, his own, to believe if ETs and such exist. To me I believe that ETs and such exist and that is my right. I've never been to Iowa yet I still believe it exist. What's the old saying...."the Devil's greatist trick is to convince YOU he's not real" and the old dragon has done a pretty good job.....that is if he exist.........

[Tony]

Yes, it is all mind games...we make and believe.

[Vitalux]

Tony I am understanding in part of what you are trying to convey.

Tony, what are your thoughts, on what intelligence creates/ controls the reality?

Tony, what are your thoughts on why we appear to be governed by fear ...fear....fear....?


thanking you in advance :hippie:

[Tony]

Tony I am understanding in part of what you are trying to convey.

Tony, what are your thoughts, on what intelligence creates/ controls the reality?

Tony, what are your thoughts on why we appear to be governed by fear ...fear....fear....?


thanking you in advance :hippie:



Hello Vitalux,

Very interesting question!
The simple answer to both is our Consciousness.

Now we have to go deeper.
First we will have to define reality. If something is real, it has to be constant, it cannot come and go. It has to be real forever. To cut this short, nothing controls real reality. Reality is you true essence, it is pure, knowing and compassionate. Compassion is knowing purity.....that you! It is lucid spaciousness. In this totally open intelligent space, anything can arise.

If you are saying reality is the place where we stand at this body moment, then the answer is our consciousness. So what is consciousness? It's our thinking emotional mind. It works like this: FLOWER--------???!!!!??? CONSCIOUSNESS???!!!??------Essence. When we do not recognise our pure essence, we believe our consciousness to be us. What has happened is that essence identifies with our thoughts about ourselves. This creates a 'self' image. When we cling to our thoughts in consciousness, this is ego clinging.

Consciousness has a false view of reality, it has gathered concepts, and decides this is now reality....with a little help from the corporations! So, our consciousness creates the reality we find ourselves in.

Regarding fear. This false self fears being exposed. Consciousness has set up a mistaken reality, which it hold onto. We fear because we believe this body and mind to be the only real reality, and ego does not want to lose, what it has created.

Fear go hand in hand with hope. Fear is "I do not want". Hope is "I want." This is Desire and Aversion or Attraction and repulsion, two of the main principles that seem the govern this universe. This is why we get so involved. The third principle is Ignorance, we have Ignored our true nature, which is merely, Pure Cognisance, which radiates Love.


There is nothing to Fear and nothing to Hope for. We are already happy, just ordinary happiness. We have been led to believe look for happiness out there, this causes suffering.

Kind regards,
Tony

[Tony]

Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

Pleiadians, Extraterrestrials, Greys, Reptilians, Archons, Atlantians, Mars bases, and any ballpoint pen laying around... have Absolutely no reality! Like the image of ourselves, they are all a figment of our imagination and in our consciousness - or rather, in someone else's!

Anyone who says they do exist is telling you a big fib ;)

It is possible my friend to plumb too deeply, to over-analyse, and in so doing arrive at spurious conclusions and a kind of parallax that distorts ultimate truth... To think 'I]I exist, but does the world exist, or is it just a figment..?'[/I] Etc. It is as productive as chasing one's tail... a useful exercise for a while, for in chasing one's tail there can be an important lesson to learn insofar as contemplation, and evaluation of self, the reality of self, of reality itself, and one's place in it. But don't chase too long, you'll just end up where you began.

Now, to say a ballpoint pen has no reality is not true. And I'll tell you why. All that exists is energy: substance, matter, thought, even light is just energy, energy in variable and changeable states. Thought exists because it is energy, and that ball-point pen exists because it is also energy. Energy, of any kind, has no permanence in state or structure, but this does not make all that consists of energy 'unreal'.

Realities, all realities, all that there is, is energy. And it is ever changing. Therefore nothing actually is unreal, it is just a manifestation of energy in one state, form, or another.

To say that this world has no reality, that our 3-dimensional reality is merely an illusion, not real, is somewhat missing the point. It is real in the sense that it is energy, ergo: it exists. It is an ordered state that consists of physical, tangible effects; is governed by physical, tangible laws. However it is not the only reality/energy. Of course not. As far as densities go the third-density earth-plane is about the lowest form of reality in regards to sentient existence.


If there are Pleiadians, Extra-terrestrials, Greys, Reptilians, Archons, Atlantians etc, they exist in exactly the same way as we do – in Consciousness, in the mind.

I'm confused here. Is it your argument that they don't exist because you have trouble believing in such a 'reality', or that they can't exist, because by your definition of existence, 'nothing actually exists' ??

Friend, with the highest respect, I believe you have muddled the fundamental truth of our actual reality, in that we are incarnated beings - spiritual/thought beings - consciousness exactly as you say, who have projected our consciousnesses (incarnated) into a dense lower plane, a plane of forgetfulness, of toil, and spiritual entropy if you will. It is the kindergarten of the soul, actually.

But bear with me a moment. By your thought system it's quite possible that you remember this well, perhaps too well, in that your perceived actual reality is not native to here, that only thought/consciousness/spirit matters... And you'd be correct of course.

But you are here, attempting to have a physical incarnate experience in order to spiritually evolve, grow in compassion and humility - to serve others - and shed karma. That's what it's all about. But 'here' is by definition of the adverb 'a place'. It's no less 'real' than anywhere else. But it exists because you perceive that it exists. It is just a different type of reality. There are many more, and most far finer, brighter, and spiritually refined than 'here'.

Now I don't wish to preach. Plenty here won't understand that, much less believe it. And that's ok. Each to his or her own, and in accordance with his or her own understanding.

You stand where you stand, because you've walked where you've walked...


Consciousness can be twisted or misdirected by ourselves and others, so that anything can appear to be real, because we identify so strongly with 'our' thoughts! Or rather, what is put in our minds...that is the role of the magician!
This is all about Neuro Linguistic Programming: people are being led by the nose, to believe in things that have actually no absolute reality.

Many are thus programmed, that's true, Many are just walking through life in their sleep.

However, the things we encounter in our daily lives are tangible, are real, and just because some of us might encounter something out of our expected 'circle of reality', something mysterious, extraordinary, esoteric, does not mean that we are suffering from some kind of programming effect, some delusion...

Don't forget, people (well most of them!) are intelligent creatures, with acute and well-honed senses, and a fine grasp of the reality of their environment... which often makes the extraordinary, even paranormal when they encounter it as manifesting as especially real. (Because it's an unknown, and conflicts with our established paradigm, this can often be frightening).

Now, 'programming' of ideas (propaganda) is absolutely true. But I would argue that the general direction of programming over the years has been to persuade us that these things 'are NOT real', that they are a product of imagination, conscious figment, and to some degree crackpot craziness. I hate to say it, friend, that perhaps, in some degree, you may perhaps have been drawn in by the very programming you are trying to expose and explain here.


If we keep believing in these things as real, we will never escape from this compounded illusion...this nightmare! Oh! I forgot - it's fun... “Bring it on!”...? Bring what on? More suffering?

I'm afraid, in my view, a critical catalyst in how we break through this 'compounded illusion' is almost a complete 360 of this statement... In seeing the greater beyond, the greater reality out there, many shall at last turn inward to see what it is inside.

Only from the outer can the inner be most deeply touched.


The imagination of the mind is a powerful tool: it can be used to analyse itself, or be made to invent and believe in all sorts of fantasies.

Am I right in your supposition: that if one hasn't received an experience or perceived a reality that it does not (or at least might not) exist?

There is nothing more dangerous to a individual's mind/ego than thinking one's own paradigm as the sovereign one. Bad things happen when one tangles their thought in a complex where all others, the world itself, and the constructed realities of everyone else, seems false.


Every single thing you see, hear, touch, taste or smell – everything that is perceived through the senses - is only experienced in the mind.

I agree. Experientially this is true.


It is not experienced “out there”!

Untrue. Very frighteningly untrue. Would not such a philosophy furnish one with the idea that there is no accountability, no responsibility for their actions? Consider: I think therefore I am, yet all other people think not, and all the world is unreal...

If there is any illusion we should be careful in guarding against, it is in falsely believing that the world is not real, that it is a playground, and that all that we say and do here does not matter.


Information passes through the senses to the brain and the mind interprets...by the time the mind looks out there, “out there” has changed, but it happens so quickly that we don't notice it – in the way that a film strip looks like a continuous image but is made up of individual frames.

This is merely an effect of our biology, allowing us to hold and grasp our reality, and interact with it. It is merely the tool by which we must experience the world. It is unimportant, and contains no new or specific insight that would shed any light on the greater mysteries.


Through propaganda, ideas have been placed in the mind and we maintain this through identification with these sets of thoughts..not all your thoughts are your own!

I see this as unimportant. Whatever information, belief, or ideology one subscribes to has little bearing on the only thing that matters: that which resides in us all when you boil away all the detritus and refuse of human propaganda, as you say, all the philosophies and complexes... and that is love. (That is 'all you need' said John Lennon. And he was right).


Let's look at the “believable” outward phenomena first.
Everything in the universe has no permanent nature.
Everything is created by causes and conditions
This includes our bodies, and every other sentient being's body, in any dimension or relative reality - whether we can see them or not, on any frequency - they are all 'created' by causes and conditions. Everything – including bodies – is created: it has a beginning, it has to be maintained, it deteriorates and then it has an end.
So everything has no permanent reality!

Going back to what I said before, 'everything is reality', not nothing. Reality is energy, and energy is transient. Nothing actually ends, rather it simply changes...


All creatures are sentient – meaning that they have a mind, which has conscious awareness...even a slow slug. We are only aware of events taking place in the mind.
Most sentient beings believe what they see, hear etc is reality. Solid. Never changing.
Beings of a higher level are able (only if they look) to be aware of a refined, lucid 'being' beyond normal consciousness.
A human body is one such vehicle to realise one's true essence. No doubt there are other beings with more or less the same potential.

Spot on. I note you say 'other beings' at the end, which suggests you are at least open to the possibly of Pleiadians, greys, and whatever else... :)


All beings have an absolute enlightened essence.
There is no thing more than this.
If Pleiadians, Extra-terrestrials, Greys, Reptilians, Archons etc have a relative presence as we do, they must all wish to realise their true nature – but dwell in great or less confusion.

Some perhaps do. But try to imagine that this reality, this earth-plane that we live on as the realm of duality. The paths of thinking I follow holds that the higher spheres, the higher frequencies of existence beyond our own, contain those beings who have shed duality and embrace the universal constant of unity.

This is the next gradient in our evolution, upon whose threshold we as a planet now stand. In unity one merges purely with infinite intelligence and love, and the polarities thereby of 'confusion' (in which we are currently steeped) no longer exist. Now I don't claim this to be true of 'negative', self-serving, beings, such as the so-called Archons, reptilians etc. These, we are led to believe, (if they are real) would be mainly fourth-density, where polarity can still exist.


If you say Pleiadians, Extra-terrestrials, Greys, Reptilians or Archons etc exist, prove it!
Tell us - what special knowledge did they impart to you :cool:?
If you state they exist, the onus is on you to prove it.
Oh and by the way, saying “I've met them,” is not proof!

I cannot prove their existence to you anymore than I can prove your existence to me. I don't know if all the said claims of these ET races are real or not. I know some are, I've had contact experiences. I can prove nothing. Nor do I particularly wish to.

But the proof/truth is out there :rolleyes:

The positive ETs/EDs have done more than enough to provide for everyone to believe, consider and know... if they would let the petals of their inner minds open and flower just a tad.

Yet they offer never enough proof to be absolutely irrefutable to even the naysayers. Why? Because this would contravene a very important nature of our existence: free will. It is down to our personal, spiritual free will to accept/believe these realities into our paradigm. They have provided enough for those who are ready to (of course) believe it, but nothing blatant and unassailable (such a mass landings) so as to damage those who are not spiritually/mentally ready, who wish rather to continue about their daily spiritual, karmic lessons untouched and unaffected by a reality they are not yet ready to absorb.

This is why the ETs have done what they have done. The earth is a mixing-pot of many entities from many places in amnesic incarnation... striving to achieve goals of spiritual understanding in hardship and ignorance/separation (duality) from the Creator... and to aspire through wisdom, love, unity and purification to merge back with that Creator, whence we came. This is what it's all about. This is our reality. Lol, in one simple sentence, that is in fact is the meaning of life (on earth at this time).

The ETs understand this and know not to interfere with our natural progression - graduation to our next spiritual level (yes I'm talking about 'ascension' to a higher density, or whatever label you want to use). The fact that we have reached such a pitiful state, verging on self-destruction that could jeopardize this process, may suggest a potential change in policy. I don't know. Time will tell.



If you keep looking outside yourself, you will never find yourself.

Partly so, I agree. But Looking only within is to see what's already there.

From looking without, experiencing without, in touching, tasting, knowing what's there, is to learn the important lesson of what is separate, what else there is: it is to sample what we lack, and to understand what we wish to gain.

It is an experiential universe. If it was the Creator's purpose for its separated self (us) merely to look within, there would have been created no tangible universe to explore, no outward lessons to learn, and no incarnations to live.

Yes I agree, we must look within along the way, to discover our growing shape, to see what we are becoming. But 'growing' is the key word here. Only from an outer source, a stimulus, an absorption of spiritual nutrition, if you will, can we grow. In growing, changing, we leave behind what was, and reach ahead for what yet is.

You have great wisdom friend. Absolutely! And we all seek in our own way, however there is a danger is seeking too far, analyzing too deeply. The waters in the well of mystery are deep, but plunge too far and you hit bedrock.



This bizarre toying with fantasy Extra-terrestrials stops people looking at what is actually (provably) going on here and now. Every so often, another piece of "info" hits the forum, and off we go in circles with our “Oh yes it is!” and “Oh no it isn't!”.

There is too much confusion, I agree. This is because there's too much disinformation. Yet the aspiration remains... Extra-terrestrials, the truth, the reality, the nature of otherness out there in the universe. I cannot perhaps convince you they are here, always have been here, and if not for them we would not even be here! That's another story, but suffice to say Humanity above all else desires Unity. Needs it! Unity with each other, unity with 'out there'. The ultimate unity is to touch and merge with All That Is.

Peace.



Hello Star Mariner,
That is a lot to get through! For now I'll have to give a simple answer.
If one believes in a creator, then one will see things one way.
If one does not believe in a creator, then one will see things another way.

True phenomena has energy are moves around, but it is moved around by consciousness..ours and collectively.

Our present moment is created by our past. Because of our ignorance of our true nature, we merely go round in circles, creating and creating. When we realise our essence and exhaust our collected karma, we will be free of this vicious cycle of existence, of seeking happiness and creating more suffering.

"I am the King or Queen of all I create and survey, my kingdom goes a long long way!" All we have to do is keep letting go of it!


All the best,
Tony

[SKAWF]

how can i prove something like this? , ! .

right then....

i can understand how a man can observe the daily cycle.
night/day.

i can understand how a man can observe the lunar cycle
full moon, no moon, and the gradients in between.

i can understand how a man could observe the yearly cycle.
the seasons and so forth.

but i cant for the life of me work out, how an earth based man,
could observe a 26,000 year cycle,
as our whole solar system orbits a star in the pleiades called alcyone.

how does a man observe that?

my original thinking was that either.....

civilisation was much much older than we had been told,
(records would have to be kept for at least 25,920 years, in order to notice a repitition of the pattern)

OR

that knowledge was brought to earth from 'elsewhere'.

even when one looks at symbolism such as the 5 pointed star

embedded into its geometry is evidence of the great cycle

imagine a circle around the star
360 degree's in a circle

and the angle in between the points of the star is 72 degree's

72 x 360 = 25,920

i would say, from a pleiadian perspective,
that earth is the furthest hospitable planet,
which is still in alcyone's orbit.

i dunno, not proof exactly, but
i'm satisfied enough that they exist.

and i spose in comes down to the old argument,
that given there are more universes in space than there are grains of sand on the earth......

its kind of arrogant to think that we are the only race that exists.

steve

[Tarka the Duck]

Hello SWAWF

To my understanding, the OP isn't actuall about whether or not these beings exist in this relative world...it's about considering - even if they DO exist - that they have no absolute existence because they, like us, will come under the laws of causes and conditions.

Kathie

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Hello Star Mariner,

Hellooo :)


If one believes in a creator, then one will see things one way.
If one does not believe in a creator, then one will see things another way.

Agreed. But one single life is just one single moment, a transitory experience. What one disbelieves in one life they may wholeheartedly believe in another...


True phenomena has energy are moves around, but it is moved around by consciousness..ours and collectively.

Sorry mate, not quite sure i understand this sentence hehe


Our present moment is created by our past. Because of our ignorance of our true nature, we merely go round in circles, creating and creating. When we realise our essence and exhaust our collected karma, we will be free of this vicious cycle of existence, of seeking happiness and creating more suffering.

Couldn't agree more, with a slight amendment in regards to 'going round in circles'. I think many of us do go through this at one time or another... and it can be a productive experience, for to turn in circles we understand futility, and the nature of inertia: of that which doesn't change in us stagnates us. Thus we can break the cycle and find the straight and narrow way. Then truth is learned and wisdom is found.

There is a lesson in every experience.

[DeDukshyn]

Interesting article Tony, I like how you've used something catchy to draw people in to a grander concept. I also like where exactly you placed the word "absolutely" in your title .. I assume that was no accident - I was about to correct you on the grammar until I read the full post - I then realized that word is exactly wherre it should be.

[DeDukshyn]

Just because something is real does not mean it is true.

Exactly. Can anyone even define real? Sure they can - but it won't be a concensus -- this is for certain. Therefore "real" is not even real. It's a generalization.

At the same time - when nothing is real, isn't everything real? (in essence that label gets completely snubbed). I am reminded of the movie "The Incredibles" where Syndrome plans to sell super high tech gadgets to everyone on the planet so that everyone can have the same abilities as the superheros. "...Because when everyone is super ... NO ONE IS!!" I think was his catch phrase.

[greybeard]

Think what Tony bangs on about in various threads is that unless we have a change of perception there will be more of what is happening in the world right now and has happened ongoing for thousands of years.
Every conceivable way has been tried to bring about a peaceful caring society with a reasonable standard of living for every person on this earth.
Violence tried--- fight for our freedom and rights.
Peace initiatives abound.
Charities numerous.

Without a raising of consciousness its just "Ground Hog Day"
More of the same.

Tony is just asking us to look at what is really important--- at least to him---me too.
We live in a society where the pursuit of material things to make us happy is the norm.
Thing is, that few wealthy people who have made it are happy long term.

Studies have now shown that competition is never appropriate --- cooperation however brings life supporting progress. (Gregg Braden lecture)

The spiritual teacher are saying that a change in perception is a strong possibility soon, but the coming energy from the dark rift will act as a magnifier,
Those of good heart will become more so.
Those who are violent, unforgiving, selfish will become more so.
A separation is pointed to by these teachers
I dont know if that will happen but it seems that those that love violence will continue with that path, separate from those who are considerate and compassionate even to a small degree--- you dont have to be a saint.

So now is the time to raise your own spiritual vibration by being kind as best you can.
Now all that is still in the illusion but it is still helpful.
Not many make it out of the illusion at present (full enlightenment) --- however that may change soon.

Tony is teaching that we are not the body but spirit having a human experience.
When you know that you are not the body, or the story in the head, not the persona-- that's a big step forward and removes fear.
We need to get out of fear right now.

Respectfully
Chris

[Rollo]

Real or not, experience is so "solid" and designed to the smallest detail. Honestly we can't complain, we are looking at remarkable design. Do we enjoy this projection/hologram shared with Pleiadians and the rest... I think yes. Why? Somehow deep down we know it's important to be part of it.

Much love,
Rollo

[Sirius White]

The Divine as one could call it, which OUR true nature is pure, beyond the material, it never changes.

Everything else, Pleadian, underground tunnels, ball point pens etc exist because of causes and conditions!
If there are Pleiadians, they are conscious like us, like all sentient beings.

Bring your proof to the table.

I love your posts :)

It is beyond the material, and YET it is NOT. The Source is Present in EVERY SINGLE THING, EVERY MOMENT. The change is merely the UNFOLDEMENT of self, like the lotus opening up. God, when it expressed itself physically, the so called divine- created a construct from which it could experience physicality. In physical universes, nothing ever truly simply is, it is always Is-ing, or be-ing. BECOMING.

There are two major ways (and many others obviously) to connect to this ineffable experience. It cannot be described in words,and while it is beyond the material it is ALSO all of the physical, and the image of the whole is always contained in the smaller part. It may seem that change is a symptom of physicality, but change is actually where stillness is found. Hence the Daoists understanding the flow of nature and harmony of the universe- and were able to find the stillness within that.

Back to the two major ways. One is to go inward, and try to achieve absolute silence (this is the state, before anything existed). The other is instead, to become hyper aware of ones NOW moment, without the presence of the egos superficial judgements or distractions. All the sounds, all the details, all the things in the PHYSICAL embodiment, and the world around ourselves.

The veil, the idea of divine being entrapped in material- the gnostic belief of a separation between divinity and physicality is, and has been an illusion! A very cleverly done one (yes, the archons had something to do with this).

And what kind of proof do you want? Do you want pictures? Do you want an alien to come down to you right now and prove his existence? What reason would he have to do that? I hate to sound cheesy but proof is in he proverbial pudding. It is inside of you. You do NOT NEED Aliens, or supposedly higher beings for proof of anything.

Want to find proof, don't ask other people to bring it to you. Why don't you seek it out yourself? Learn to reach lower brainwave state and extend telepathy. See who comes along your way. Learn to remote view and look at the underground facilities (or try to...I don't recommend this, its dangerous). There are PLENTY of ways you can find proof for yourself. There are many people today who have learned how to remote sense, view, and do telepathy with off-world beings. They are EVERYWHERE, in and around near earth space.

My personal experiences of et's, were not wholly positive. They did not beat around the bush in trying to deceive me with delusions of enlightenment and false light. They cut straight to the chase in body-snatching attempts, psychic attacks, psychotronics,and much more. It also blew my mind, and for some time almost off my rocker because they were interdimensional. They could happen in my room without my consent (well, spiritually there was probably consent, more on this later), without almost anything visible, and on a frequent basis. Often times painful, from choking, to energy draining, to even astral abductions. But I learned, the human mind and spirit is powerful enough to ward these things through sheer will power. And I never regret this experience for a second- because it gave me strength, it revealed to me an occult part of reality very few ever see, and furthermore I now see it as part of my unfoldment process. Without it, I would never have asked bigger questions, and plunged myself into the dark side of research to understand the rotten core of this fiasco that needs to be healed. Unfortunately- it is a spectrum of abuse and horror that can't even be told to the most open minded, it is that unbelievable....

Oh, and BTW, what you say about them being conscious beings just like us. YOU ARE RIGHT. There is nothing more super majestic awesome evolved simply because they may be older/more technologically advanced than us. Human channels and people have been unknowingly deceived by these beings that WANT the worship. The beings who constantly channel information about 4th and 5th dimensional ascension are the kind who take over not just planets, but universes. They WANT you to forget about your physical life, and experience, and come to "where they are." This very conveniently leaves the planet with little healing, and in the clutches of dark energies who are already and have been proliferating.

BRING the change here. Let the divine into your heart, and allow it to unfold outwards. Like your hemispheres cohere, your EM field of heart, and its rhythims (frequencies) align with the collective of your cells, relax your body, open yourself up to Source. Touch the overunity state. "Ascension" happens now, in the physical life!

The divine and the physical are not as separate as people would like to think. Eventually, one can become the embodiment of that which has never truly been not present. When there is no longer a process of learning but simply remembering.

Take care

[SKAWF]

Hello SWAWF

To my understanding, the OP isn't actuall about whether or not these beings exist in this relative world...it's about considering - even if they DO exist - that they have no absolute existence because they, like us, will come under the laws of causes and conditions.

Kathie

cheers for that!

for some reason i read the thread title as 'absolutely do not exist'!!

but then getting back to the concept,

existence is relative then.

they do not absolutely exist in the same way that we dont absolutely exist,

but i accept that i am here, and i believe that they are there.... absolutely or not.

also, i think my response came from this paragraph from Tony

''If you say Pleiadians, Extra-terrestrials, Greys, Reptilians or Archons etc exist, prove it!
Tell us - what special knowledge did they impart to you ?
If you state they exist, the onus is on you to prove it.
Oh and by the way, saying “I've met them,” is not proof!''

its easy to say that no thing exists absolutely,
but that renders everything null and void.

without wishing to state the obvious, zen has no purpose.
there is no point to it.
i accept it..... in and of itself.....

but there is nothing there.

i do also accept that we wont find ourselves by looking towards the outside world

steve

[Jules]

Hi Tony (do you exist?):

My response is from a state of non-existence, and if I don't really exist, why respond at all. Does it matter how I respond?

I just don't know, I think my brain hurts now. But that really doesn't exist either. Oh well.

[greybeard]

The thing is you exist and are eternal but the body ego and persona dies at some point in time.
They are temporary -- you as awareness are permanent.
So if you define Truth as something that is eternal unchanging then only the Ultimate is True-- you are That.
There is only One without a second and you are That
When you get that even intellectually your view within the illusion changes--- when you see things differently, you act differently.
The right hand would not hurt the left.
So we begin to see the divinity within all things and we treat all with respect and compassion-- we see "others" as God sees them--- with unconditional love.
That will make the difference we want to see.

Chris

[DeDukshyn]

The thing is you exist and are eternal but the body ego and persona dies at some point in time.
They are temporary -- you as awareness are permanent.
So if you define Truth as something that is eternal unchanging then only the Ultimate is True-- you are That.
There is only One without a second and you are That
When you get that even intellectually your view within the illusion changes--- when you see things differently, you act differently.
The right hand would not hurt the left.
So we begin to see the divinity within all things and we treat all with respect and compassion-- we see "others" as God sees them--- with unconditional love.
That will make the difference we want to see.

Chris

When humans do this en mass -- this (and the subsequent results) is the "shift" that is so often misrepresented and misinterpreted. --My 2 cents ;)

[greybeard]

The thing is you exist and are eternal but the body ego and persona dies at some point in time.
They are temporary -- you as awareness are permanent.
So if you define Truth as something that is eternal unchanging then only the Ultimate is True-- you are That.
There is only One without a second and you are That
When you get that even intellectually your view within the illusion changes--- when you see things differently, you act differently.
The right hand would not hurt the left.
So we begin to see the divinity within all things and we treat all with respect and compassion-- we see "others" as God sees them--- with unconditional love.
That will make the difference we want to see.

Chris

When humans do this en mass -- this (and the subsequent results) is the "shift" that is so often misrepresented and misinterpreted. --My 2 cents ;)

Exactly my friend and it started with you.
Chris

[cloud9]

but Tony... where's the proof?

[DeDukshyn]

but Tony... where's the proof?

There was some but it was also deemed not real. ;)

[nonesuch]

Any average Joe can overuse the mind to grind itself into submission, insanity or boredom. I still hope to win an Academy Award by doing so now.

Using the mind and ego to convey a message that says the mind and ego are illusions simply piles on more evidence that mind and ego are real….at least to anyone who’s listening—or worse, listening and believing.

Its like designating an organ of the body…say, the ear…to be the most credible spokesmodel to spice up a worn out marketing campaign promoting the idea that the effects of noise canceling headsets prove that sound doesn’t exist because (and who doesn’t agree?) ‘the ear knows best’.

Not to be crude, but such circular arguments are like masturbating in front of a mirror…flattery will get you everywhere. But tragically, upon deeper reflection in dawn’s tepid light, it can no longer be denied that feigned romance is not the greatest show on earth.

This post should reasonably end here. But in honor of those unwary enough to request further explanation, I’ll complete this waste of time so as to paradoxically not make it a complete waste of time.

What may be true about the nature of illusion can’t be conveyed accurately from within the illusion. Any thoughtful explanation is bound by illusion and is therefore meaningless, betrayed by its own unconsciously grasped admission ticket to the electrical system’s limitations inherent in an ensouled human body.

Proposing that God is real, we might also agree that God didn’t create the ego.

But God created—or is—everything, right?

Therefore the ego has just as much claim to divinity, or existence, as anything else about which thought claims authority.

However, based on having voiced all this, my final point is that none of the above can be proven true.

The lovely chirps of crickets remind me that summer is almost over and fall is upon us.

The envelope, please.


Note: Heavily discounted noise canceling headsets are on sale at the rear of the auditorium on your way out.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

particular wording is interesting. hmmm

who is this guy , really /...

[DeDukshyn]

Any average Joe can overuse the mind to grind itself into submission, insanity or boredom. I still hope to win an Academy Award by doing so now.

Using the mind and ego to convey a message that says the mind and ego are illusions simply piles on more evidence that mind and ego are real….at least to anyone who’s listening—or worse, listening and believing. .. <trim excess>


Cold is not a thing - there is no such thing as cold - only heat exists. Yet we have a label for "cold" and can perceive it with our senses, have measurements to measure it by and make our decision by it - yet it does not exist - only heat exists, yet we have a full on perception of cold.

Ego is not a thing - there is no such thing as Ego - only God exists. Yet we have a label for "ego" and can perceive it with our senses, have judgements to measure it by and make our decisions with it - yet it does not exist - only God exist, yet we have a full on perception of ego.

There is, and there is the absence of.

[nonesuch]

Any average Joe can overuse the mind to grind itself into submission, insanity or boredom. I still hope to win an Academy Award by doing so now.

Using the mind and ego to convey a message that says the mind and ego are illusions simply piles on more evidence that mind and ego are real….at least to anyone who’s listening—or worse, listening and believing. .. <trim excess>


Cold is not a thing - there is no such thing as cold - only heat exists. Yet we have a label for "cold" and can perceive it with our senses, have measurements to measure it by and make our decision by it - yet it does not exist - only heat exists, yet we have a full on perception of cold.

Ego is not a thing - there is no such thing as Ego - only God exists. Yet we have a label for "ego" and can perceive it with our senses, have judgements to measure it by and make our decisions with it - yet it does not exist - only God exist, yet we have a full on perception of ego.

Maybe rethink your post? ;)

If only God exists, exactly what is there to perceive BUT God, even in the form of ego. What is ego created by, or made of, except God? Even toys are real.

[DeDukshyn]

Any average Joe can overuse the mind to grind itself into submission, insanity or boredom. I still hope to win an Academy Award by doing so now.

Using the mind and ego to convey a message that says the mind and ego are illusions simply piles on more evidence that mind and ego are real….at least to anyone who’s listening—or worse, listening and believing. .. <trim excess>


Cold is not a thing - there is no such thing as cold - only heat exists. Yet we have a label for "cold" and can perceive it with our senses, have measurements to measure it by and make our decision by it - yet it does not exist - only heat exists, yet we have a full on perception of cold.

Ego is not a thing - there is no such thing as Ego - only God exists. Yet we have a label for "ego" and can perceive it with our senses, have judgements to measure it by and make our decisions with it - yet it does not exist - only God exist, yet we have a full on perception of ego.

Maybe rethink your post? ;)

If only God exists, exactly what is there to perceive BUT God, even in the form of ego. What is ego created by, or made of, except God? Even toys are real.

If cold doesn't exist - how do we have this perception of it? There is, and there is the absence of.

ADDITION: The absence of isn't a thing within itself, but it still has an effect on perception (key word being perception). Thus if our perception is affected - how can we say anything we say even have relevance? I think this was part of Tony's point.

[nonesuch]

Any average Joe can overuse the mind to grind itself into submission, insanity or boredom. I still hope to win an Academy Award by doing so now.

Using the mind and ego to convey a message that says the mind and ego are illusions simply piles on more evidence that mind and ego are real….at least to anyone who’s listening—or worse, listening and believing. .. <trim excess>


Cold is not a thing - there is no such thing as cold - only heat exists. Yet we have a label for "cold" and can perceive it with our senses, have measurements to measure it by and make our decision by it - yet it does not exist - only heat exists, yet we have a full on perception of cold.

Ego is not a thing - there is no such thing as Ego - only God exists. Yet we have a label for "ego" and can perceive it with our senses, have judgements to measure it by and make our decisions with it - yet it does not exist - only God exist, yet we have a full on perception of ego.

Maybe rethink your post? ;)

If only God exists, exactly what is there to perceive BUT God, even in the form of ego. What is ego created by, or made of, except God? Even toys are real.

If cold doesn't exist - how do we have this perception of it? There is, and there is the absence of.

I don't think we disagree on that. Even cold hearts are real, but they're not necessarily the most accurate expression of a spiritual heart's purpose. My point is, when speaking of reality vs. illusion, we're using physical sense perceptions to divine and speak truths and then using the same tools to disprove them. It's not a moral judgement to say that a closed loop is an inaccurate measuring tool when talking about awareness, consciousness, ultimate truth and other things physical senses don't cover. Everything is real, but not everything is true. Depending on how we measure truth, each of us comes to our own conclusions about what is real. With such a smorgasbord at our fingertips, we have to make wise dietary choices. I think the OP was emphasizing that above the question of the reality of Pleiadians. Maybe. But i read that a long time ago. And I'm probably off topic anyway.


(And sorry, but I have to run to the grocery store, so I'll respond to your comment later.)

[RunningDeer]

Me thinketh, my brain has checked out for the evening. This thread now feels different than it did earlier in the day. It sat in my heart and gut knowing, but now I've lost it again. I am reminded of the game called "Chutes and Ladders".


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Calz/Chutes-and-Ladders.JPG

[Kindred]

Yes, it is all mind games...we make and believe.

NOPE!.... As opined in your OP... 'We' don't exist... 'We' is the Creator...

'We' are All figments of IT'S imagination!

In Unity, Peace and Love...

(Within OURSELVES)

[Bill Ryan]

Me thinketh, my brain has checked out for the evening.

Tony is confusing concepts that have validity at a level out of this reality -- with the concepts that have validity at this level.

If I shoot and kill someone in an argument, then that's a meaningless and maybe even amusing (or 'unreal'!) thing to happen viewed from other levels.

Here, the police will lock me up -- however much of a philosopher or metaphysician I consider myself to be.

And it was probably pretty real to the guy I shot, as well.

When you cross the road, the bus that might hit you is real. Whatever you believe. :)

[Anchor]

Tony is confusing concepts that have validity at a level out of this reality -- with the concepts that have validity at this level.

If I shoot and kill someone in an argument, then that's a meaningless and maybe even amusing (or 'unreal'!) thing to happen viewed from other levels.

....

When you cross the road, the bus that might hit you is real. Whatever you believe. :)

I think Tony is playing not confusing.

Sure, one must tread carefully when outside the walls of Avalon and articulating this stuff...

I am sure that what I may have formerly called reality is illusion - and is made by me; but I also know that it is done for a SHARED purpose.

However you are right, illusory murder will be met with illusory policemen and illusory jail.

We made it a powerful illusion and we need to follow our own self made rules in it.

Or change them... and it...

[PurpleLama]

Still, I say the "I" isn't really the problem here, it's the "am", has been all along.

[PurpleLama]

If they exist, compassion doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary.


You don't know many Pleadians, I'd wager.

[another bob]

Ixnay and a disciple once went camping in the Lumenurium Desert, and after a day of exploring, found a suitable camp spot, set up their tent, enjoyed a modest meal and some star gazing, and finally turned in for the night.

Some hours later, Ixnay woke the disciple.

"My Friend, look up at the sky now and tell me what you see."

The disciple replied: "I see a wondrous celestial display filled with millions of stars."

"What does that tell you?" asked Ixnay.

The disciple pondered for a minute.

"Astronomically speaking, it tells me that there are countless galaxies and trillions of stars, circled by planets more numerous than we can hope to measure.

Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Libra, which could be a time for taking relationships more seriously.

Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three, but then again, time is a relative mental construct with no inherent reality, save for that which we grant it, based on our own particular subjective filters and conditioning.

Theologically, it might be inferred that Yah the Lord Creator is all powerful and we are small and insignificant in contrast, and consequently could not even begin to fathom the Divine Plan that has brought forth this magnificent manifestation.

Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow, with clear skies and pleasant temperatures.

Beyond all of that, I am finally beginning to recognize that these perceptions, and even our very appearance here, are nothing but random, transitory, and non-binding modifications of consciousness Itself, and only reflect a provisional reality.

Moreover, they are inherently without meaning, except for the meaning we may arbitrarily attribute to them -- again, based on dreamy fantasies of interpretation.”

Ixnay listened, but remained silent.

Finally, the disciple asked, "What does it tell you, Master?"

Ixnay first looked up, then to the left, then to the right, then back to the disciple, and then, laughing, replied:

"It tells me that someone has stolen our tent!"

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Still, I say the "I" isn't really the problem here, it's the "am", has been all along.




http://i48.tinypic.com/11imkg6.jpg

[PurpleLama]

When one understands the two truths, everything becomes a symbolic teacher. Everything (a seemingly reality) has the nature of not truly existing (an absolute nature).
Like ourselves, we have a seeming reality- a feeling of me, which seems to exist, but we have an absolute reality which is constant which is just pure awareness.

Our absolute reality cannot be said to exist or not exist. If we say "I exist" we still have a duality. We cannot say "I do not exist" because who is saying this!
This is a very subtle business. In meditation there is just pure perception, there is no time to say " I am perceiving" because then one comes out of pure perception!

In the two truths one reflects the other, by virtue of one the other is known.


Tony

There is that which is not dual, it is real/unreal. Not to be confused with unreal/real. Even truth, as you or anyone else sees it, is true/untrue. We don't have the right goggles, here and now, to see all that clearly out of this one. Same, but different. That's pretty much the best we've got.

[PurpleLama]

Everything inherently contains it's opposite, but still we can confuse one for the other. Always the one and the other, who is to say for sure which is which.

[another bob]

Everything inherently contains it's opposite, but still we can confuse one for the other. Always the one and the other, who is to say for sure which is which.


http://i48.tinypic.com/hv85l5.jpg

[truth4me]

I BELIEVE something is behind our Governments. Look at the U.S.government and Obama. Almost 15 trillion in debt and killing innocent people left and right in other countries for the sake of oil. Ether Malevolent ETs/interdimensional beings. All I know is the U.S.government/shadow government is as evil as it comes and the proof is 9/11. Even Alex Jones is seeing the light about these eneties.....

6EE7PsuMJoE

[nomadguy]

If there really are beings from another place in space.
Would they call themselves the names that we loosely associate with a assorted groups of stars that, really are not so close to one another? Pleiadians Arcturians Orions? No. Those names are human-imaginary ideas that may or may not be so. We humans are the only ones whom use these distinctions as we are the ones whom created thiose names in the first place.

example
The white settlers from Europe had all sorts of names for themselves.
It is very likely that none of these names are what the Natives of America called them when they came upon the shores for the first time.

[DeDukshyn]

Any average Joe can overuse the mind to grind itself into submission, insanity or boredom. I still hope to win an Academy Award by doing so now.

Using the mind and ego to convey a message that says the mind and ego are illusions simply piles on more evidence that mind and ego are real….at least to anyone who’s listening—or worse, listening and believing. .. <trim excess>


Cold is not a thing - there is no such thing as cold - only heat exists. Yet we have a label for "cold" and can perceive it with our senses, have measurements to measure it by and make our decision by it - yet it does not exist - only heat exists, yet we have a full on perception of cold.

Ego is not a thing - there is no such thing as Ego - only God exists. Yet we have a label for "ego" and can perceive it with our senses, have judgements to measure it by and make our decisions with it - yet it does not exist - only God exist, yet we have a full on perception of ego.

Maybe rethink your post? ;)

If only God exists, exactly what is there to perceive BUT God, even in the form of ego. What is ego created by, or made of, except God? Even toys are real.

If cold doesn't exist - how do we have this perception of it? There is, and there is the absence of.

I don't think we disagree on that. Even cold hearts are real, but they're not necessarily the most accurate expression of a spiritual heart's purpose. My point is, when speaking of reality vs. illusion, we're using physical sense perceptions to divine and speak truths and then using the same tools to disprove them. It's not a moral judgement to say that a closed loop is an inaccurate measuring tool when talking about awareness, consciousness, ultimate truth and other things physical senses don't cover. Everything is real, but not everything is true. Depending on how we measure truth, each of us comes to our own conclusions about what is real. With such a smorgasbord at our fingertips, we have to make wise dietary choices. I think the OP was emphasizing that above the question of the reality of Pleiadians. Maybe. But i read that a long time ago. And I'm probably off topic anyway.


(And sorry, but I have to run to the grocery store, so I'll respond to your comment later.)

I think I see where your are coming from - "everything is real" -- and as defined earlier in this thread "real" has no consensus and perception is the key.

[DeDukshyn]

Woah!, I just read through the latest posts and am thinking that not all really see that this is a philosophical thread. Tony's post was not literal, but philosophical exercise. Maybe that's just the way I saw it? ... My 2 cents.

[Tony]

No-thing is real, however................................................................ you know it!;)

[Tarka the Duck]

Tony is confusing concepts that have validity at a level out of this reality -- with the concepts that have validity at this level.

If I shoot and kill someone in an argument, then that's a meaningless and maybe even amusing (or 'unreal'!) thing to happen viewed from other levels.

Here, the police will lock me up -- however much of a philosopher or metaphysician I consider myself to be.

And it was probably pretty real to the guy I shot, as well.

When you cross the road, the bus that might hit you is real. Whatever you believe. :)



What a great thread! Thank you to all who have contributed - it's really enjoyable to read everyone's thoughts.

It's not surprising that you find it confusing, Bill! This is not easy to understand. I'm very far from qualified to even attempt to explain it but I'll have a go - there are others here who could do a much better job :o

This thread is about the two truths, according to Mahayana Buddhism, and is from the teachings of Nagarjuna known as the Madyamika.
In this, existence can be understood as ultimate AND conventional (absolute and relative).

Conventional truth is how we usually see the world, a place full of diverse and independently-existing things and beings.
Ultimate truth is that there are no independently-existing things or beings.

BUT...

To say there are no independently-existing things or beings is not to say that nothing exists; it is saying that there are no distinctions.

The absolute nature of all things is known in Sanskrit as dharmakaya. Pure. Lucid. Empty.

We cannot say that things do exist or don't exist: each of these views are extreme.

Nagarjuna realised that all phenomena lack independent self-existence: they are dependant on causes and conditions and are a collection of things brought together temporarily.

Let's say you see your cat asleep on the bed. That is your conventional view - one object(cat) and another separate object (bed). We speak about them as if they have their own individual nature - "My bed HAS four legs", but they can be broken down into component parts...wood, cotton, metal / fur, whiskers, blood etc. and each of those components can be broken down again atoms. Where's is the bed then? It was just an arrangement of atoms existing in space for a short period of time. And then we compound this by seeing the bed as "my" bed or a "stylish" bed - labels from our own minds.

Absolute truth is not made of parts. There are no boundaries: it described with words like boundless, pure, and perfect. And this boundless, pure perfection is as true a part of our existence as is fabric, wood, fur, skin...

It's easy to get confused with this, and lean towards the extremes nihilism (nothing exists) or eternalism (everything truly exists for ever). That's why this teaching is known as The Middle Way - between these two extremes.

There are so many pitfalls when studying this philosophy! I suppose that's exactly why one has to be "fussy" ie precise.
It's easy to slip into thinking that the absolute is true, "proper" reality and the conventional is false reality.
It's easy to forget that these are the two truths... not the one truth and one lie...
One truth is not better than the other.

BOTH TRUTHS ARE TRUE!

[Simonm]

Hello SWAWF

To my understanding, the OP isn't actuall about whether or not these beings exist in this relative world...it's about considering - even if they DO exist - that they have no absolute existence because they, like us, will come under the laws of causes and conditions.

Kathie

Hi, If I may? given my limited understanding of Buddha law. It tells you that there are many levels to existence and each level has the Buddha law, but that each is not the same as the previous or the ones after. Each law is precise, but for that existence only, so how can we consider what absolute existence is? Surely it differes for each and every level of consciousness?

[Tony]

Hello SWAWF

To my understanding, the OP isn't actuall about whether or not these beings exist in this relative world...it's about considering - even if they DO exist - that they have no absolute existence because they, like us, will come under the laws of causes and conditions.

Kathie

Hi, If I may? given my limited understanding of Buddha law. It tells you that there are many levels to existence and each level has the Buddha law, but that each is not the same as the previous or the ones after. Each law is precise, but for that existence only, so how can we consider what absolute existence is? Surely it differes for each and every level of consciousness?





Hello Simonm,

This will depend on what tradition one follows, as there are slight differences in traditions.

There are nine 'stages', each use the same words but the meaning changes.They are all true, but as one proceeds perception refines.

Like, at one level compassion is being kind and causing no harm. At the highest level, compassion is knowing the true nature of another being, and seeing that they do not recognise their true nature...compassion naturally arises. But here one of the four enlightened activities comes into play: Pacifying, Magnetising, Enriching or Destroying....egos games!

There is much to be aware of, as on the path of refining perception, intertwined is the path of deception from demons. I'll be writing about this on another thread called, Undeniable Truth.


Kind regards,
Tony

[modwiz]

I'd say something but :note:"Nothing is real. And nothing to get hung about.":note:

[Tony]

Tony is confusing concepts that have validity at a level out of this reality -- with the concepts that have validity at this level.

If I shoot and kill someone in an argument, then that's a meaningless and maybe even amusing (or 'unreal'!) thing to happen viewed from other levels.

Here, the police will lock me up -- however much of a philosopher or metaphysician I consider myself to be.

And it was probably pretty real to the guy I shot, as well.

When you cross the road, the bus that might hit you is real. Whatever you believe. :)



What a great thread! Thank you to all who have contributed - it's really enjoyable to read everyone's thoughts.

It's not surprising that you find it confusing, Bill! This is not easy to understand. I'm very far from qualified to even attempt to explain it but I'll have a go - there are others here who could do a much better job :o

This thread is about the two truths, according to Mahayana Buddhism, and is from the teachings of Nagarjuna known as the Madyamika.
In this, existence can be understood as ultimate AND conventional (absolute and relative).

Conventional truth is how we usually see the world, a place full of diverse and independently-existing things and beings.
Ultimate truth is that there are no independently-existing things or beings.

BUT...

To say there are no independently-existing things or beings is not to say that nothing exists; it is saying that there are no distinctions.

The absolute nature of all things is known in Sanskrit as dharmakaya. Pure. Lucid. Empty.

We cannot say that things do exist or don't exist: each of these views are extreme.

Nagarjuna realised that all phenomena lack independent self-existence: they are dependant on causes and conditions and are a collection of things brought together temporarily.

Let's say you see your cat asleep on the bed. That is your conventional view - one object(cat) and another separate object (bed). We speak about them as if they have their own individual nature - "My bed HAS four legs", but they can be broken down into component parts...wood, cotton, metal / fur, whiskers, blood etc. and each of those components can be broken down again atoms. Where's is the bed then? It was just an arrangement of atoms existing in space for a short period of time. And then we compound this by seeing the bed as "my" bed or a "stylish" bed - labels from our own minds.

Absolute truth is not made of parts. There are no boundaries: it described with words like boundless, pure, and perfect. And this boundless, pure perfection is as true a part of our existence as is fabric, wood, fur, skin...

It's easy to get confused with this, and lean towards the extremes nihilism (nothing exists) or eternalism (everything truly exists for ever). That's why this teaching is known as The Middle Way - between these two extremes.

There are so many pitfalls when studying this philosophy! I suppose that's exactly why one has to be "fussy" ie precise.
It's easy to slip into thinking that the absolute is true, "proper" reality and the conventional is false reality.
It's easy to forget that these are the two truths... not the one truth and one lie...
One truth is not better than the other.

BOTH TRUTHS ARE TRUE!



You are right young Duck!
We can easily fall into the two extremes, of nihilism and eternalism.

We all know, this is our nature. Being still is our essence.
This is relative truth and absolute truth...together.

When this is recognise, compassion naturally arises.

[jackovesk]

Gutsy Title you got going on there Pie'n'eal...:)


Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

...and 'Gutsy Thread' to boot...:yes4:

That'll shorely throw the 'Cat agmonst the Pigeons'..!!!

But if your 'Denial of their Existence' is true..?

Then 'How do you Explain' this Alien looking fellow...:pound:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/customavatars/avatar5101_19.gif

PS - I 'Trust' you still have a sense of humour...:)

Good-Luck & Bonne-Chance my friend, your going to need it......:behindsofa:


I've got a 'Spare 'Bullet-Proof' vest if required..? :painkiller:

[Tony]

Gutsy Title you got going on there Pie'n'eal...:)


Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

...and 'Gutsy Thread' to boot...:yes4:

That'll shorely throw the 'Cat agmonst the Pigeons'..!!!

But if your 'Denial of their Existence' is true..?

Then 'How do you Explain' this Alien looking fellow...:pound:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/customavatars/avatar5101_19.gif

PS - I 'Trust' you still have a sense of humour...:)

Good-Luck & Bonne-Chance my friend, your going to need it......:behindsofa:


I've got a 'Spare 'Bullet-Proof' vest if required..? :painkiller:


You are right Jack ...look at those ears!...it ain't natural!

The point of this thread is to be more precise about our fears....and to dissolve them! There are 'things' going on which is causing suffering, and has to be addressed ie. Corporations and Governments! One can suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or by opposing end them!

One can sit in a cave waiting for enlightenment, or one can engage in the world of suffering. Even though one knows it is all an illusion....it is not an illusion for others, and so they suffer. People have enough to put up with, with their own confusion. Blessed, if I'm going to stand by and have Governments controlled by Corporations to take advantage of this confusion!

We need to be more precise about what 'is' reality. When we know what reality 'is' no one can ever pull the wool over our eyes again!

But we still have to do the laundry!


Tony

[Tony]

Hello SWAWF

To my understanding, the OP isn't actuall about whether or not these beings exist in this relative world...it's about considering - even if they DO exist - that they have no absolute existence because they, like us, will come under the laws of causes and conditions.

Kathie

Hi, If I may? given my limited understanding of Buddha law. It tells you that there are many levels to existence and each level has the Buddha law, but that each is not the same as the previous or the ones after. Each law is precise, but for that existence only, so how can we consider what absolute existence is? Surely it differes for each and every level of consciousness?





Hello Simonm,

This will depend on what tradition one follows, as there are slight differences in traditions.

There are nine 'stages', each use the same words but the meaning changes.They are all true, but as one proceeds perception refines.

Like, at one level compassion is being kind and causing no harm. At the highest level, compassion is knowing the true nature of another being, and seeing that they do not recognise their true nature...compassion naturally arises. But here one of the four enlightened activities comes into play: Pacifying, Magnetising, Enriching or Destroying....egos games!

There is much to be aware of, as on the path of refining perception, intertwined is the path of deception from demons. I'll be writing about this on another thread called, Undeniable Truth.


Kind regards,
Tony



An important addition to the above.
One of the reasons we may disagree is that we are talking from different understandings of the same thing. We may even use the same words, but our understanding will be different, this is to be expected. That is why tolerance and patience is so necessary. We need time to digest where others are coming from.

If we find we are just gut reacting, this is bound to explode...in our face! This is precisely what the secret corporations want....division! No body is wrong, but we may just be holding onto ideas that are not helpful, just wishful thinking.

Sooner or later we will let go.

[ViralSpiral]

The cat in the grey's hat
Fish on a sirian bicycle
Charlie and the chocolate pleiadian 
Pavlov's lounge lizard

Hey diddle diddle
Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come

All naught, and naught to do.


I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. EB White


Oh, and the washing

Love that you love, Pie :)

[ghostrider]

Pleadians do exist, you are the decendant of them, they are of Lyra decent. You carry the DNA of both and more.

[Arrowwind]

when appearing to give positive messages are actually beings who have mastered aspect of the light to such an extent where they can BEND it to their will, to create ILLUSION. Euphoria can be stimulated by stroking the ENS/ANS system, and thus some people when encountering these beings are stimulated at this level and are essentially at a docile level of believing they have attained bliss by being in the presence of these beings..

Please explain what this ENS/ANS system is.

[Arrowwind]

If they exist, compassion doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary.


You don't know many Pleadians, I'd wager.

You may know more than you are aware of.

[Bill Ryan]

A Pleadian also is "being" but are too busy mucking around in flying saucers, to know what to do! If they exist, compassion doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary.


The Brazilian rain forest Indians probably say that about the strange white men they see in helicopters from time to time.

(Some, who are anthropologists, are compassionate.... some, working for the mining and logging companies, are not.)

[Spiral]

Gutsy Title you got going on there Pie'n'eal...:)


Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

...and 'Gutsy Thread' to boot...:yes4:

That'll shorely throw the 'Cat agmonst the Pigeons'..!!!

But if your 'Denial of their Existence' is true..?

Then 'How do you Explain' this Alien looking fellow...:pound:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/customavatars/avatar5101_19.gif

PS - I 'Trust' you still have a sense of humour...:)

Good-Luck & Bonne-Chance my friend, your going to need it......:behindsofa:


I've got a 'Spare 'Bullet-Proof' vest if required..? :painkiller:

I knew the rhetoric sounded familiar :) any room behind that sofa ?

http://www.cgarena.com/gallery/3d/description/fullimages/YOda_900.jpg

[Lightworker87]

Placebo effect - "The Secret" :) its true though. we are the creators of our environment.

[geofffxdwg]

Well at least "nothing" is real and everything else must be an illusion .Quoting you "Here are the simple reasons why"

If there are Pleiadians, Extra-terrestrials, Greys, Reptilians, Archons, Atlantians etc, they exist in exactly the same way as we do – in Consciousness, in the mind.
Consciousness is the bit between outer phenomena and our true essence.
Consciousness can be twisted or misdirected by ourselves and others, so that anything can appear to be real, because we identify so strongly with 'our' thoughts! Or rather, what is put in our minds...that is the role of the magician!
This is all about Neuro Linguistic Programming: people are being led by the nose, to believe in things that have actually no absolute reality.

If we keep believing in these things as real, we will never escape from this compounded illusion...this nightmare! Oh! I forgot - it's fun... “Bring it on!”...? Bring what on? More suffering?

The imagination of the mind is a powerful tool: it can be used to analyse itself, or be made to invent and believe in all sorts of fantasies.

Every single thing you see, hear, touch, taste or smell – everything that is perceived through the senses - is only experienced in the mind. It is not experienced “out there”! Information passes through the senses to the brain and the mind interprets...by the time the mind looks out there, “out there” has changed, but it happens so quickly that we don't notice it – in the way that a film strip looks like a continuous image but is made up of individual frames.
Through propaganda, ideas have been placed in the mind and we maintain this through identification with these sets of thoughts..not all your thoughts are your own!

Let's look at the “believable” outward phenomena first.
Everything in the universe has no permanent nature.
Everything is created by causes and conditions
This includes our bodies, and every other sentient being's body, in any dimension or relative reality - whether we can see them or not, on any frequency - they are all 'created' by causes and conditions. Everything – including bodies – is created: it has a beginning, it has to be maintained, it deteriorates and then it has an end.
So everything has no permanent reality! End quote.Another possibility Tony might be that what your seeing in the world and in those around you is only in your mind.You make some very valid points and I enjoy your point of view.Here is another one of your quotes ;
Every single thing you see, hear, touch, taste or smell – everything that is perceived through the senses - is only experienced in the mind. It is not experienced “out there”! Information passes through the senses to the brain and the mind interprets...by the time the mind looks out there, “out there” has changed, but it happens so quickly that we don't notice. End quote.Keep up the good work Tony.....regards Geoff.

[Spiral]

My subjective reality now contains the illusion that my brain hurts, the subjective causality being this thread, or so I believe.

Is it the case that an abducted Buddhist would tell the ETs that they don't exist ?

[Tony]

My subjective reality now contains the illusion that my brain hurts, the subjective causality being this thread, or so I believe.

Is it the case that an abducted Buddhist would tell the ETs that they don't exist ?





My Dear Spiral,

I cannot begin to tell you how much I would dearly love have a little chat with these fellows!



Live long and prosper,
Tony

[RunningDeer]

My subjective reality now contains the illusion that my brain hurts, the subjective causality being this thread, or so I believe.

Is it the case that an abducted Buddhist would tell the ETs that they don't exist ?

My Dear Spiral,

I cannot begin to tell you how much I would dearly love have a little chat with these fellows!

Long life and prosper,
Tony

Ohhhh!, so you're the guy the ET fellows are talking about, Tony...
You're the cause for some of them coming. And you're the cause for some of them staying away. http://forums.newtorrents.info/style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif

May the force be with you, http://serve.mysmiley.net/fighting/fighting0040.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net)
WhiteCrowBlackDeer

[Tony]

A Pleadian also is "being" but are too busy mucking around in flying saucers, to know what to do! If they exist, compassion doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary.


The Brazilian rain forest Indians probably say that about the strange white men they see in helicopters from time to time.

(Some, who are anthropologists, are compassionate.... some, working for the mining and logging companies, are not.)



Ah! The point is, the indigenous people of this planet, know the white man is insane and dangerous, for believing in their toys.
I am a cock-er-ney from the land of pie and mash, I too think they are mad.

However this thread is about Absolute reality, and.... there is nothing to fear! Fear is created in the mind, to believe anything that arises is real.
The Pleiadians are just some guys like us, trying to find their way home.

The way home is realising reality.



All the best,
Tony

[Jules]

If they exist, compassion doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary.


You don't know many Pleadians, I'd wager.

No I can't say any Pleaidians have been beating down my door or having conversations with me, but I'll try not to hold that against them, since they do not Absolutely exist.

[Tony]

Pleadians do exist, you are the decendant of them, they are of Lyra decent. You carry the DNA of both and more.

Dear Ghostrider,

You are talking about the physical body. This is the same argument as the Church and Dawinism...did we come from Apes or God(s)?
We are talking about our essence beyond the mind here, we are embodied 'spirit' 'energy' 'light' 'intelligence' 'LOVE'.



We are so many incarnations, so yes, we have probably been Pleiadians. In fact every sentient being has been our Mother.....and run off with our watch!



All the best,
Tony

[truth4me]

I'm not much into quoting bible scriptures here on the forum but in this instance it might shed some light if there are really Pleiadians.

Job38:31 KJV-Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades,or loose the bands of Orion?

Evidently the writer of the book of Job believed in Pleiadians and maybe even Reptilians from the constellation of Orion.

[Tony]

My subjective reality now contains the illusion that my brain hurts, the subjective causality being this thread, or so I believe.

Is it the case that an abducted Buddhist would tell the ETs that they don't exist ?

My Dear Spiral,

I cannot begin to tell you how much I would dearly love have a little chat with these fellows!

Long life and prosper,
Tony

Ohhhh!, so you're the guy the ET fellows are talking about, Tony...
You're the cause for some of them coming. And you're the cause for some of them staying away. http://forums.newtorrents.info/style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif

May the force be with you, http://serve.mysmiley.net/fighting/fighting0040.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net)
WhiteCrowBlackDeer


Dear Paula,
There are 'others' to talk to......in prayer!


Tony

[Finefeather]

So I take it from all the posts on this thread that everything is just an illusion..
So I was just wondering what we were all doing here then and what is it that we need to achieve?
If everything is an illusion, is reality also an illusion and if so what is this thing we call reality?
Who is having this illusion and why would this someone be having such an amazing illusion.
Is this guy delusional? Is 'God' delusional? Is 'God' actually on some massive dose of mind altering drug and we are just the illusion?

:boink::boink:

[truth4me]

pie'n'eal,I have a question. If you were a star traveling Pleiadian and wanting to make contact with the people of Earth how would you go about it? Would you go straight to our governments? or would you by pass that and just land?

[Phoenix]

Hi pie'n'eal ,

Your buddhist views are a refreshing change from the usual perception of things.

They dont exist but then again neither do we.

However, I do want to ask you something...
If you see a burning house with 3 kids stuck inside would you go and help them? If yes why? If all is just a dream? And i agree it's a dream.

If you see a child about to be raped by a guy , or maybe by a reptilian, and you feel is in your power to stop that from happening ...would you step into duality and help him?
Is true that karma and stuff is the reason some of us experience this dream as a nightmare; so it's true it may be best, when looking at the big picture, not to intervene.

But the overhelming compassion and love you feel... It's hard to stay and meditate while everything is going downhill isn't it? How do one solves this paradox?




Hello Chris,
This is a huge important subject you bring up, and it is to do with understanding the unity of two truths. One is the relative truth, of things seeming to exist and the other the absolute truth, that all things and mind are empty by nature. We have to respect the relative truth are work within it, as we are in this body. This body needs food and shelter, if we have the energy and generosity we can help others.


Meditation is just 'being'. One can 'be' in a cave, or one can 'be' with others it make no difference. There are many levels of understanding this.

Though one may see someone suffering or having a good time because of their karma, If we are in 'their' vicinity we are part of 'their' karma, for that moment....and they are part of ours!



Tony

But pie, you did not answer the question. Can you drop the rhetoric for a minute and answer Chirs82's question?

[Tony]

Hope and Fear.

Hope and Fear are two poisons that control us. They cloud our 'view'!

Our 'clear view' is our true being, which is naturally Pure, Knowing and Compassionate.
This is undeniable. These are the three natural qualities of our being, Emptiness, Cognisance and Love. So now we know what we truly are! We are embodied spirits of pure light.

But, of course, we have an opposite side - not-pure, not-knowing and not-compassionate, because of this “I” fixation!

These three aspects create the three main emotions of Desire, Aversion and Ignorance.
Ordinary confused humans are governed by “I like”... “I do not like”... and “I do not care”.

So we blindly react, and our clouded view stays the same. This is because we Ignore our true nature. That is the first poison, Ignorance.

It is strange that the laws of this universe have to same characteristics:
Attraction, Repulsion and Inertia. Maybe, our Ignorance, Desire and Aversion created the laws of this universe, that keeps us in this vicious cycle of existence...?!

Ignorance creates Hope and Fear. Ignorance also create Pride and Envy.

Of course they are other beings in 'this' universe, who have the very same spiritual-potential-essential nature as us. An enlightened nature!

But we also have an endarkened nature, that gives into the emotions of Hope and Fear.

Hoping that there are beings in spaceships off planet to help us, and Fearing what is happening here on Earth creates a confused mind. We can cut through our confusion, by cutting through our cloud of Hopes and Fears.

We are Pure, Knowing and Compassionate beings - This is an undeniable truth.

[RunningDeer]

My subjective reality now contains the illusion that my brain hurts, the subjective causality being this thread, or so I believe.

Is it the case that an abducted Buddhist would tell the ETs that they don't exist ?

My Dear Spiral,

I cannot begin to tell you how much I would dearly love have a little chat with these fellows!

Long life and prosper,
Tony

Ohhhh!, so you're the guy the ET fellows are talking about, Tony...
You're the cause for some of them coming. And you're the cause for some of them staying away. http://forums.newtorrents.info/style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif

May the force be with you, http://serve.mysmiley.net/fighting/fighting0040.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net)
WhiteCrowBlackDeer


Dear Paula,
There are 'others' to talk to......in prayer!


Tony
Dear Tony,

I am in full agreement. I've got some big guys that I talk with. Though of late, I've asked for them to step aside to see if whom I'm speaking with are an illusion or are of Great Light. Like always, they are in full support that it's my life, my choices, my decisions.

The post above was intended for a humorous exchange. I find that I need more smiles and belly laughs these days. http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/big-smile2-smiley.gif (http://emoticoner.com)

Peace and Smiles,
Paula

[Kindred]

Hi pie'n'eal ,

Your buddhist views are a refreshing change from the usual perception of things.

They dont exist but then again neither do we.

However, I do want to ask you something...
If you see a burning house with 3 kids stuck inside would you go and help them? If yes why? If all is just a dream? And i agree it's a dream.

If you see a child about to be raped by a guy , or maybe by a reptilian, and you feel is in your power to stop that from happening ...would you step into duality and help him?
Is true that karma and stuff is the reason some of us experience this dream as a nightmare; so it's true it may be best, when looking at the big picture, not to intervene.

But the overhelming compassion and love you feel... It's hard to stay and meditate while everything is going downhill isn't it? How do one solves this paradox?

Hello Chris,
This is a huge important subject you bring up,... {snip)
Tony

But pie, you did not answer the question. Can you drop the rhetoric for a minute and answer Chirs82's question?

Yes Tony... in reading this thread last night, I had the same question arise. I do wish to hear what your training has to say in relation to this important question posed by Chris.

Thanks!

In Unity, Peace and Love

[Tony]

So I take it from all the posts on this thread that everything is just an illusion..
So I was just wondering what we were all doing here then and what is it that we need to achieve?
If everything is an illusion, is reality also an illusion and if so what is this thing we call reality?
Who is having this illusion and why would this someone be having such an amazing illusion.
Is this guy delusional? Is 'God' delusional? Is 'God' actually on some massive dose of mind altering drug and we are just the illusion?

:boink::boink:


Dear Fine feather,
Brilliant question!

Conventional reality is the illusion....it only seems to be real!
Absolute reality is knowing the illusion...that seems to be real!

You are Absolute reality, your mental self image is a conventional reality.
As we are in this body we need the conventional reality, to realise this absolute reality.

I think the body can be a good anchor, it can keep us grounded.
Otherwise we could float off anywhere!

God, is a different question
This idea may help some and not others.
I might say, "I do not believe in God, but in the very nature of God!"
..which is my own true nature...and yours!


Yours, Tony

¤=[Post Update]=¤





Hi pie'n'eal ,

Your buddhist views are a refreshing change from the usual perception of things.

They dont exist but then again neither do we.

However, I do want to ask you something...
If you see a burning house with 3 kids stuck inside would you go and help them? If yes why? If all is just a dream? And i agree it's a dream.

If you see a child about to be raped by a guy , or maybe by a reptilian, and you feel is in your power to stop that from happening ...would you step into duality and help him?
Is true that karma and stuff is the reason some of us experience this dream as a nightmare; so it's true it may be best, when looking at the big picture, not to intervene.

But the overhelming compassion and love you feel... It's hard to stay and meditate while everything is going downhill isn't it? How do one solves this paradox?

Hello Chris,
This is a huge important subject you bring up,... {snip)
Tony

But pie, you did not answer the question. Can you drop the rhetoric for a minute and answer Chirs82's question?

Yes Tony... in reading this thread last night, I had the same question arise. I do wish to hear what your training has to say in relation to this important question posed by Chris.

Thanks!

In Unity, Peace and Love


Is this to do with meditation?

Tony

[Kindred]

Yours, Tony

¤=[Post Update]=¤





Hi pie'n'eal ,

Your buddhist views are a refreshing change from the usual perception of things.

They dont exist but then again neither do we.

However, I do want to ask you something...
If you see a burning house with 3 kids stuck inside would you go and help them? If yes why? If all is just a dream? And i agree it's a dream.

If you see a child about to be raped by a guy , or maybe by a reptilian, and you feel is in your power to stop that from happening ...would you step into duality and help him?
Is true that karma and stuff is the reason some of us experience this dream as a nightmare; so it's true it may be best, when looking at the big picture, not to intervene.

But the overhelming compassion and love you feel... It's hard to stay and meditate while everything is going downhill isn't it? How do one solves this paradox?

Hello Chris,
This is a huge important subject you bring up,... {snip)
Tony

But pie, you did not answer the question. Can you drop the rhetoric for a minute and answer Chirs82's question?

Yes Tony... in reading this thread last night, I had the same question arise. I do wish to hear what your training has to say in relation to this important question posed by Chris.

Thanks!

In Unity, Peace and Love


Is this to do with meditation?

Tony

No... it has to do with an important set of questions posed by Chris82 and Phoenix about whether or not a 'non-existent' individual should render assistance to another 'non-existent' individual being attacked or subjected to harm by some 'non-existent' physical phenomena.

Do we let others suffer, if we have the power to offer assistance?

In Unity, Peace and Love

[Spiral]

Is it the case that the perimeters of our consciousness are defined by the nature of our corporeal nature ?

Different beings seem to operate within the bounds of different perimeters, some of the things we attribute to being a sentient life form such as compassion are absent, whilst they have a nature of being we can only guess at, and being human always anthropomorphise those things so that the reality rests beyond our ken.

Being able to chat with an ET would be a good way of trying to translate their modalities into something our cognative faculties could digest :)

The trouble is it seems that everyone else uses telepathy, so there is not the comfort of considering & moulding that which you want to say, as soon as a thought appears it is instantly known by them !

At least higher beings communicate in a manner that is akin to flashes of realisation in deep meditation, as opposed to the brutal & concise way that some of the nastier types relate.

[Tarka the Duck]

Hi pie'n'eal ,

Your buddhist views are a refreshing change from the usual perception of things.

They dont exist but then again neither do we.

However, I do want to ask you something...
If you see a burning house with 3 kids stuck inside would you go and help them? If yes why? If all is just a dream? And i agree it's a dream.

If you see a child about to be raped by a guy , or maybe by a reptilian, and you feel is in your power to stop that from happening ...would you step into duality and help him?
Is true that karma and stuff is the reason some of us experience this dream as a nightmare; so it's true it may be best, when looking at the big picture, not to intervene.

But the overhelming compassion and love you feel... It's hard to stay and meditate while everything is going downhill isn't it? How do one solves this paradox?

Hello Chris,
This is a huge important subject you bring up,... {snip)
Tony

But pie, you did not answer the question. Can you drop the rhetoric for a minute and answer Chirs82's question?

Yes Tony... in reading this thread last night, I had the same question arise. I do wish to hear what your training has to say in relation to this important question posed by Chris.

Thanks!

In Unity, Peace and Love

Apologies for jumping in here...:o

In my reply to Bill (post 75) I tried to explain this: BOTH TRUTHS ARE TRUE and BOTH need to be respected.
They are a unity.
It's not a matter of the conventional world mattering more than the ultimate or vice versa.

I remember hearing someone talk about this and they explained that the attitude towards the conventional world is similar to staying in a hotel room: you take care of everything in there respectfully, but because it doesn't belong to you, you don't obsess on it. You know you will leave it behind when you leave.

Appearances that we relate to and care for etc are part of relative truth.
The true nature of these appearances is the ultimate truth.

The ultimate truth cannot be realised by thinking.


Do we let others suffer, if we have the power to offer assistance?

Compassion - the wish to remove suffering - is a key aspect of Buddhism...so definitely not!!

[Tony]

pie'n'eal,I have a question. If you were a star traveling Pleiadian and wanting to make contact with the people of Earth how would you go about it? Would you go straight to our governments? or would you by pass that and just land?


Hello truth4me,

I often ask this question myself!
This is what I 'believe' and practice. I feel certain that there are enlightened beings, and they shower us sentient beings all the time with blessings...now!
I would do exactly the same, in fact I do this in my prayers everyday! (this includes governments). All we need to do is open the door...mind and heart, to receive these blessings.

Our journey to realising our true nature is individual, as we are all at different stages. But we do have a collective aspect...we can work more together!

Now and again enlightened beings do come to Earth to teach. Their effects last a long time. Some of us merely repeat their teachings. The teaching are there for those that hear, like attracts like. Governments are too immersed in their power to hear about absolute truth, they are only interested in relative truth...what they can gain!

The way to liberation is here now, it is very simple, maybe too simple! Love thy neighbour as thy self, I and my father are one. The problem is translating this:
"I" = imagined self, "father' = is our true nature. This unity is the two truths relative and absolute.
Love thy neighbour as thy self = unconditional Love.

We have alway had the same choices, do good, do no evil, tame the mind.

Blessings can come in many forms to suit...it can come in the form of clarity!



All the very best,
Tony

[Tony]

No... it has to do with an important set of questions posed by Chris82 and Phoenix about whether or not a 'non-existent' individual should render assistance to another 'non-existent' individual being attacked or subjected to harm by some 'non-existent' physical phenomena.

Do we let others suffer, if we have the power to offer assistance?

In Unity, Peace and Love

Dear Kindred, Chris82 and Phoenix,

IT IS ALL ABOUT COMPASSION, LOVE, EMPATHY. ...helping others!
The problem is with the word non-existent, or not truly existing.

This relates to contrived embellished concepts of ourselves. It's in the imagination.
However there is that which is aware of these mental adornment, the stuff we hang onto.

That pure awareness is you! This pure Awareness has the power to radiate out to help others,
if it has the capacity.

The safe guard to all spiritual practice is compassion to all sentient beings.
Unconditional never ending compassion.


However it is true that there are practitioner who live in caves, and want enlightenment, and to be free, that is their right.
We are what is termed house holders, we work within society, and that is our choice.



All the best,
Tony

[RunningDeer]

Post removed by me because it doesn't fit the tone of the thread.

[Jake]

pie'n'eal,I have a question. If you were a star traveling Pleiadian and wanting to make contact with the people of Earth how would you go about it? Would you go straight to our governments? or would you by pass that and just land?


The Most obvious meeting place would be in the Astral! (Sorry, I had to,,, :))

Also, I loved the Bible verse,,, Very good find. Jake.

[another bob]

pie'n'eal,I have a question. If you were a star traveling Pleiadian and wanting to make contact with the people of Earth how would you go about it? Would you go straight to our governments? or would you by pass that and just land?


The Most obvious meeting place would be in the Astral! (Sorry, I had to,,, :))

Also, I loved the Bible verse,,, Very good find. Jake.

There seem to be two separate (and somewhat conflicting) elements going on with this thread, and although I understand why Tony chose to include the provocative element about ET, conflating ET existence with Nagarjuna's Buddhist polemics and the Two Truths Doctrine has clearly been the source of some confusion.

One can visit Buddhist forums and encounter endless threads exploring the subtle aspects of the Two Truths, as well as pro and con arguments about the validity of Nagarjuna's "Tetralema", and his elucidations of emptiness, and walk away either intellectually inspired or, more likely, with a big headache. The point being, unless one has a direct experience of emptiness (sunyata), all discussion about it just adds, in the words of the great Zen Master Hakuin, "more foulness onto foulness still."

On the other hand, speculating about the existence of ET is just that, unless one also has a direct experience. One member here, our Friend BrightGarlick, has documented a number of such encounters, and since he just posted about the subject on his blog today, I am passing on a very interesting link:

http://otherworldyencounters.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/july-2012-alien-encounters-a-rough-account/

[Tarka the Duck]

Yes indeed, AB, it's been fascinating seeing this thread develop! Funny...I don't find that a basic grasp of the two truths (which is all I could hope to have;)) is at all headache-inducing. It's actually pretty simple - unless you choose to travel down the philosophical route.

The infinite debates surrounding the of their connectedness - they probably would bring on a migraine - but a simple explanation of the relationship between relative and ultimate can actually be pretty life-changing stuff. For me, the first time I read that everything is made up of parts, and is therefore not independently existent was a true Eurika moment :cool:
and the inspiration for a journey to experience sunyata.

Unless we have a basic understanding of the importance of the relative world as well as the ultimate nature of all things, an experience of emptiness can actually be very depressing: I've known people find life loses all meaning and everything seems pointless.

[another bob]

Unless we have a basic understanding of the importance of the relative world as well as the ultimate nature of all things, an experience of emptiness can actually be very depressing: I've known people find life loses all meaning and everything seems pointless.

That's why it is so often emphasized that, if we are going to embark on such a journey, we develop a working relationship with a qualified guide.

Blessings!

[Tarka the Duck]

Unless we have a basic understanding of the importance of the relative world as well as the ultimate nature of all things, an experience of emptiness can actually be very depressing: I've known people find life loses all meaning and everything seems pointless.

That's why it is so often emphasized that, if we are going to embark on such a journey, we develop a working relationship with a qualified guide.

Blessings!

Yep! Absolutely agree there, AB.

[Chester]

Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!


As some of you know, we are not this body, but let's look inside.


All the best
Tony

Hi Tony, I agree with you... yet, when I wake up in the middle of the night having to pee, stumble towards the bathroom and stub my toe massively in the process... while I am hopping up and down screaming expletives, I find its certainly an extremely annoying illusion to say the least.

Ohhh and one more thing Tony. If someone came up to me and asked me if I ever knew a Pleiadian, I would show them your picture and respond, "You tell me!" hahaha meant totally in jest. I say this because I remember when I started reading your posts and saw your picture and all (those awesome soothing blue eyes)... I loved you instantly! Meant with all my heart. Thanks for being here, Tony, you are one of the reasons I keep coming back to Avalon. Chester

EDIT: Honest Truth! - I had not yet seen Post #80 by jackovesk! hahahah hillarious!

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?49260-Proof-that-Pleiadians-and-the-rest-do-not-Absolutely-exist-&p=547402&viewfull=1#post547402

[Jake]

Tony, You are one of my heroes.... I know that we have not touched base on a personal level,,, but I feel your joy and passion. and I would love to 'but heads' ,, in a joyful manner.

I am not of this world,, or of this human body! I wonder if transcending ego,,, is the same for each and every representation of life.... from plant to animal to human to ET??? i am not Buddhist,, (that I remember) but i do resonate with many of the buddhist philosophies that I come accross.

Have you ever had an OBE??? (maybe a topic for another thread, or PM..)

[DeDukshyn]

Any average Joe can overuse the mind to grind itself into submission, insanity or boredom. I still hope to win an Academy Award by doing so now.

Using the mind and ego to convey a message that says the mind and ego are illusions simply piles on more evidence that mind and ego are real….at least to anyone who’s listening—or worse, listening and believing. .. <trim excess>


Cold is not a thing - there is no such thing as cold - only heat exists. Yet we have a label for "cold" and can perceive it with our senses, have measurements to measure it by and make our decision by it - yet it does not exist - only heat exists, yet we have a full on perception of cold.

Ego is not a thing - there is no such thing as Ego - only God exists. Yet we have a label for "ego" and can perceive it with our senses, have judgements to measure it by and make our decisions with it - yet it does not exist - only God exist, yet we have a full on perception of ego.

Maybe rethink your post? ;)

If only God exists, exactly what is there to perceive BUT God, even in the form of ego. What is ego created by, or made of, except God? Even toys are real.

If cold doesn't exist - how do we have this perception of it? There is, and there is the absence of.

I don't think we disagree on that. Even cold hearts are real, but they're not necessarily the most accurate expression of a spiritual heart's purpose. My point is, when speaking of reality vs. illusion, we're using physical sense perceptions to divine and speak truths and then using the same tools to disprove them. It's not a moral judgement to say that a closed loop is an inaccurate measuring tool when talking about awareness, consciousness, ultimate truth and other things physical senses don't cover. Everything is real, but not everything is true. Depending on how we measure truth, each of us comes to our own conclusions about what is real. With such a smorgasbord at our fingertips, we have to make wise dietary choices. I think the OP was emphasizing that above the question of the reality of Pleiadians. Maybe. But i read that a long time ago. And I'm probably off topic anyway.


(And sorry, but I have to run to the grocery store, so I'll respond to your comment later.)


I think my metaphor has not been fully received as intended - allow me to clarify what I meant:

Cold is a concept only - but it does not exist - there is only heat - only heat can be measured - any and all thermometers measure heat - they cannot measure cold because it does not exist - it is the absence of a vibration and nothing more - even something at 1 degree kelvin has a infinitesimal amount of heat, but no cold. Cold is merely a lack of heat. At absolute zero, there is merely the absence of the vibration that determines the level of heat.

Does heat contain cold? No it does not - yet we "feel" cold, have a concept of it, and have to make decisions by it - but it still is not real except in the mind as a perception of the opposite of heat.

Does God contain Ego? Or do we just have a perception to the absence of something? Ego is formed when there is a separation from Source - an absence of that connection is what causes these perceptions.

Your initial point was that God must also be Ego. I say no it does not - in the same way that heat does not contain cold - yet both are real to perceptions, if defined by the consciousness.

[DeDukshyn]

After reading Tony's first post - I came to the conclusion that this thread is not really about whether pleiadians exist or not .. am I wrong? Maybe I have gotten this thread all wrong and was looking too deep into what Tony was actually saying? I don't know. Bill and others seem to think that this is what it was a bout -- does almost no on on Avalon understand philosophy? I don't know ... Maybe I'm just on another planet ... and Tony came to visit? ;) ;) ;)

[RunningDeer]

After reading Tony's first post - I came to the conclusion that this thread is not really about whether pleiadians exist or not .. am I wrong? Maybe I have gotten this thread all wrong and was looking too deep into what Tony was actually saying? I don't know. Bill and others seem to think that this is what it was a bout -- does almost no on on Avalon understand philosophy? I don't know ... Maybe I'm just on another planet ... and Tony came to visit? ;) ;) ;)

"Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!"

I was thinking that from the greater perspective, Pleidians and everything else does not exist because All Is the "Absolute". But I appreciated hearing the difference between relative truth vs. absolute truth.

[another bob]

After reading Tony's first post - I came to the conclusion that this thread is not really about whether pleiadians exist or not .. am I wrong? Maybe I have gotten this thread all wrong and was looking too deep into what Tony was actually saying? I don't know. Bill and others seem to think that this is what it was a bout -- does almost no on on Avalon understand philosophy? I don't know ... Maybe I'm just on another planet ... and Tony came to visit? ;) ;) ;)

"Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!"

I was thinking that from the greater perspective, Pleidians and everything else does not exist because All Is the "Absolute". But I appreciated hearing the difference between relative truth vs. absolute truth.


Alright, it's Saturday Night, so what the heck:

The great Sage Ramana Maharshi once asked: "When we awaken from the dream, do we go searching for the characters in that dream, to awaken them?"

For those of us with less than transcendental knowledge of the way things really are, it’s easy to fall into a logical fallacy called "Category Error". That is, we conflate the world of the absolute with the world of the relative, and because we fail to properly distinguish between these two, we often end up confusing ourselves and others.

Certainly, there is an ultimate truth indicated by the simile "like a dream," wherein there is nothing whatsoever which is real, or independently existent, and yet we believe that there is something which is real, based on our conditioned and conditional interpretation. Upon awakening, we realize that there was nothing at all, just dependently arising phenomena that temporarily create the appearance of stable objectivity.

It is on account of the power of this sleepy ignorance that, in the midst of all manner of phenomena which do not ultimately exist, we nonetheless perceive them to exist: the so-called "self", "persons", “ice cream”, "countries", and so forth.

Mysteriously, the unchanging Absolute appears to manifest in the midst of the relative, as the quicksilver play of consciousness, as energies and forms and functions to infinity. In the midst of it all, what we can re-cognize is the self-evident fact that we ARE. We don't really know what we are, but it is undeniable that we are.

This awareness of our beingness is the only thing that doesn’t change, though worlds after worlds arise, thrive, and pass away. Our bodies change, our self-concepts change, our beliefs change, and our relations change, but we do not change, or rather, awareness does not change. That unchanging awareness is just another name for what we fundamentally are, and it as this awareness itself that Source plays in the fields of creation.

The relative is recognized as the relative because it is impermanent. It consists of everything that changes, and that includes everything perceivable or conceivable. Just so, if the absolute did not want to express itself in this dreamy density of transience, then we would not be incarnating as these bodies, in the midst of the changing circumstances in which we find ourselves appearing. We are the absolute, expressing itself as the relative.

By reflecting on our original identity to the point of gnosis, or re-cognition, we can realize that we are indivisible from Source, the Absolute. Moreover, we have never been separated, despite the transient illusionary flow of relative phenomenal existence. A critical by-product of such gnosis is the realization that the function of the absolute in manifestation is unconditional loving. Why is there anything, rather than nothing? Love.

Notably, this is not a mere intellectual deduction, but a matter of direct gnosis, attained upon the re-cognition of our prior indivisibility from Source. The testimonies of Realizers throughout the ages attest to and confirm this gnosis, and it is also the birthright of all peoples, should they inquire into their own true nature and primordial identity to the point of re-cognition.

Since love must love, all beings must be served and even saved, despite the fact that there has never been a single independently existing being in need of saving, including ourselves. This is a great and marvelous mystery, and a humorous one too, though confounding to the discursive mind that would like to have everything filed and figured out.

Buddha's concept of saving beings was to cause them all to enter into Nirvana. If one was to become a Bodhisattva, dedicated to saving all beings, the aim was just this, to cross all sentient beings over to Nirvana. However, in the Diamond Sutra, Buddha demonstrated his sense of humor by noting:

"All types of beings, whether egg-born, womb-born, moisture-born, or transformationally-born, whether possessed of form or formless, whether possessed of thought or free of thought, whether neither possessed of thought nor free of thought -- I cause them all to enter the nirvana without residue and thus cross them over to extinction. As I cross over to extinction in this manner an incalculable, innumerable and unbounded number of beings, in truth there are no beings whatsoever who succeed in being crossed over into extinction. Why is this so? Subhuti, If a bodhisattva retains the mark of a self, the mark of a person, the mark of a being or the mark of one with a life span, he is just a non-bodhisattva."

The point is, when we see someone in need of being served, we must serve them, even though it is a dream, a mirage, a hallucination of the mind. After all, we are love, and love must love. Thus the wise do all sorts of foolish things, like lecturing on nothingness to nobody, teaching emptiness to empty chairs, and performing countless compassionate good deeds, even though there is no such thing as good or bad, absolutely speaking.

There is only Source, without a second, and so who is there to benefit from good deeds? Still, love must love. As long as there is the illusion of separation, the function of love comes into play, even though it may not even look like love to the mind that still makes distinctions of “me and mine”.

This is no contradiction to the Realized, only to us who still see some difference between saved and unsaved, lost and found, plus and minus, sacred and profane. Paradoxically, that's apparently the way the absolute would have it played, just so that It, Source, can discover Itself over and over again in the relative -- in these humble and transparent forms of you and me and everyone.


:yo:

[Tony]

Emptiness.

I thought it may be a good time, as we are talking about absolute reality, to look at what empty essence is. There isn't much that can be spoken about emptiness as it is experience. It is natural and the simplest of experience. Talking about it, does not need to confuse the mind, if our attempt is to clarify.

Emptiness is just a word to describe our essential nature, or essence. It is our pure perception. Different translators use different words for Emptiness. It's untainted, not a product of something, limitless, open, pure, clear light ....it is just there...isness!

I like the word or purity, but then that has to be qualified as being crystal clarity...not acting holy!
If you can think of a better word so be it!

This essence is natural and is reality, it is just there, is never born and cannot die. Realising this essence can be done through years of insight training, deduction, or having essence pointed out.
It can also be realised through devotion or, and compassion. It is self-less-ness. The “I” identification is removed, to be pure. Though to work in the world we need a mere “I”!

For the 'pointing out instruction' one needs a qualified authentic teacher. Not me! But we can go some of the way – we can get a flavour of it. An intellectual understanding is of benefit, so when one does see 'it' it is recognised.

I've had the pointing out instruction many times, so I have a taste. The word I would use to describe it is...ordinary! But that has a special meaning for me, you may have or need whistles and bells!
We are not all the same.

When emptiness is first seen, one realises that it was there all the time...your guardian angel was you! This first seeing is only a baby emptiness, it needs practice to sustain it, as we keep falling back into conceptual existence.

Empty pure perception is our natural being. It is there all the time. but goes unnoticed because it is so simple and ordinary. Extra-ordinary! We don't notice it because the mind/consciousness, is kept busy.

I write because we can have the wool pulled over our eyes about this subject, unintensionally of course. This is because a full explanation is not given...or known.

Essence is your natural being, you will see it how 'you' see it, unmodified! This is where we need precise instruction, because of a mistake in seeing clear consciousness as essence.

This gets a little subtle so will need an explanation. There is a difference between consciousness and essence – consciousness is still conceptual. There is consciousness clarity and essence clarity.
They are very close, and knowing the difference can help see clearly where one is.

Consciousness clarity is a very high state, but it is a stepping stone. When someone says, “I know myself!” that is a duality, that is consciousness clarity...still conceptual, there is still a sense of time. If it's a little annoying to hear this...it's only ego sticking it's nose in!

This is where we have to be kind to ourselves. All clear consciousness has to do is look in on itself, to realise empty essence. But these are just words, you need the experience.

The pointing out instruction, may be given in words, or gesture. One of my teachers was handed a cup of tea, and his teacher said, “That's it!” One sits there with no thoughts in the mind. At that moment one doesn't alter anything, create or modify...just let it be. It may be essence clarity or consciousness clarity, it does not matter...just let be.

With practice one will see the difference. Some get this, some do not. There are other ways.

This is a brief explanation. On a retreat this can take a week to explain...as we need to warm up to it!

Remember working in the world we need a mere”I” to be able to allow expression to take place.

This is but half the story. The next stage is mingling this with daily conventional reality life, this is to do with exhausting karma...not reacting out of habit, letting be!

As one proceeds everything becomes our teacher, as knowing the nature of everything as having no true existence, only a temporary form. One also realises that one's thought are also of a temporary nature. But, the moment these appearances arise, their absolute nature is seen..emptiness!

There are many levels of this:
Like a knot in a snake untying itself.
Like drawing on water.
Like a thief entering an empty house...there is nothing to take and nothing to defend. At this stage one wears emptiness as an adornment as it is constant, and is called complete emptiness - Dharmakaya.




Tony

[Bill Ryan]

After reading Tony's first post - I came to the conclusion that this thread is not really about whether pleiadians exist or not .. am I wrong? Maybe I have gotten this thread all wrong and was looking too deep into what Tony was actually saying? I don't know. Bill and others seem to think that this is what it was a bout -- does almost no on on Avalon understand philosophy? I don't know ... Maybe I'm just on another planet ... and Tony came to visit? ;) ;) ;)

I do understand philosophy, and Tony is fiddling while Rome is burning -- but, wait a minute, Rome doesn't absolutely exist either, and neither does Tony absolutely exist (except to himself) -- so it all doesn't absolutely matter at all.

:)

[Tarka the Duck]

After reading Tony's first post - I came to the conclusion that this thread is not really about whether pleiadians exist or not .. am I wrong? Maybe I have gotten this thread all wrong and was looking too deep into what Tony was actually saying? I don't know. Bill and others seem to think that this is what it was a bout -- does almost no on on Avalon understand philosophy? I don't know ... Maybe I'm just on another planet ... and Tony came to visit? ;) ;) ;)

I do understand philosophy, and Tony is fiddling while Rome is burning -- but, wait a minute, Rome doesn't absolutely exist either, and neither does Tony absolutely exist (except to himself) -- so it all doesn't absolutely matter at all.

:)

Morning Bill! But it does matter if Rome is burning...:o As I tried - probably not very well - to explain in my reply to you (post 75), both the relative AND absolute matter!

The point is that, in understanding to nature of the relative and ultimate, fear is dissolved and therefore it's harder for people to control you. This is, for me, what freedom is all about...

Kathie

...and one man's fiddling is someone else's Violin Concerto in D by Beethoven :o

[greybeard]

Some scientists say that matter does not exist--- everything is consciousness ie a projection of the mind.

Ramesh Balskar said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"

inherent in that, is that the illusion is supposed to seem real and we are supposed to act as though it is real.
There would not be illusion-- duality-- without the ego.
So at the highest level, yes its not true as it is ever changing, only Truth is permanent.
However we must act according to our own spiritual level.

This video may help.
Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUU3p5iHMA

There is no matter----

In the words of John Lennon---"Nothing is real nothing to go on about"
Davis Icke "Only unconditional love is real"

However it is vital that compassion, forgiveness, love is shown to our own self and others.
Enlightenment is freedom from ignorance that we are individuals separate from "God/source"
There is only One without a second.
That which we resist persists -- the more we try to correct the ills of this world, the more weight we give to them.-- we strengthen their reality.
The Truth is Consciousness is both form and formless and neither--- the mind cant get that.

The middle path seems to be an answer.
Honour the form that life has taken but see beyond it.
Wear the world like a loose garment (Jesus quote)
Being knee jerk reactive has not worked.
Gandhi’s way worked up to a point.

Regards Chris

[RunningDeer]

Since love must love, all beings must be served and even saved, despite the fact that there has never been a single independently existing being in need of saving, including ourselves. This is a great and marvelous mystery, and a humorous one too, though confounding to the discursive mind that would like to have everything filed and figured out.

Beautiful, Another Bob. Thank you.

Sage Ramana Maharshi assisted greatly in my understanding about life and living.

This is an example of where understanding relative truth vs. absolute truth is helpful:

My hardest challenge is knowing when to accept, from the place of Love, to allow another to walk their path. I’ve made some hard decisions that have caused pain to our illusionary selves. That is, until I remind myself that if I were to do it all over again, it would be the same decisions. Still, in those moments, I am aware of holding my breath.

Peace,
Paula :wave:





After reading Tony's first post - I came to the conclusion that this thread is not really about whether pleiadians exist or not .. am I wrong? Maybe I have gotten this thread all wrong and was looking too deep into what Tony was actually saying? I don't know. Bill and others seem to think that this is what it was a bout -- does almost no on on Avalon understand philosophy? I don't know ... Maybe I'm just on another planet ... and Tony came to visit? ;) ;) ;)

"Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!"

I was thinking that from the greater perspective, Pleidians and everything else does not exist because All Is the "Absolute". But I appreciated hearing the difference between relative truth vs. absolute truth.


Alright, it's Saturday Night, so what the heck:

The great Sage Ramana Maharshi once asked: "When we awaken from the dream, do we go searching for the characters in that dream, to awaken them?"

For those of us with less than transcendental knowledge of the way things really are, it’s easy to fall into a logical fallacy called "Category Error". That is, we conflate the world of the absolute with the world of the relative, and because we fail to properly distinguish between these two, we often end up confusing ourselves and others.

Certainly, there is an ultimate truth indicated by the simile "like a dream," wherein there is nothing whatsoever which is real, or independently existent, and yet we believe that there is something which is real, based on our conditioned and conditional interpretation. Upon awakening, we realize that there was nothing at all, just dependently arising phenomena that temporarily create the appearance of stable objectivity.

It is on account of the power of this sleepy ignorance that, in the midst of all manner of phenomena which do not ultimately exist, we nonetheless perceive them to exist: the so-called "self", "persons", “ice cream”, "countries", and so forth.

Mysteriously, the unchanging Absolute appears to manifest in the midst of the relative, as the quicksilver play of consciousness, as energies and forms and functions to infinity. In the midst of it all, what we can re-cognize is the self-evident fact that we ARE. We don't really know what we are, but it is undeniable that we are.

This awareness of our beingness is the only thing that doesn’t change, though worlds after worlds arise, thrive, and pass away. Our bodies change, our self-concepts change, our beliefs change, and our relations change, but we do not change, or rather, awareness does not change. That unchanging awareness is just another name for what we fundamentally are, and it as this awareness itself that Source plays in the fields of creation.

The relative is recognized as the relative because it is impermanent. It consists of everything that changes, and that includes everything perceivable or conceivable. Just so, if the absolute did not want to express itself in this dreamy density of transience, then we would not be incarnating as these bodies, in the midst of the changing circumstances in which we find ourselves appearing. We are the absolute, expressing itself as the relative.

By reflecting on our original identity to the point of gnosis, or re-cognition, we can realize that we are indivisible from Source, the Absolute. Moreover, we have never been separated, despite the transient illusionary flow of relative phenomenal existence. A critical by-product of such gnosis is the realization that the function of the absolute in manifestation is unconditional loving. Why is there anything, rather than nothing? Love.

Notably, this is not a mere intellectual deduction, but a matter of direct gnosis, attained upon the re-cognition of our prior indivisibility from Source. The testimonies of Realizers throughout the ages attest to and confirm this gnosis, and it is also the birthright of all peoples, should they inquire into their own true nature and primordial identity to the point of re-cognition.

Since love must love, all beings must be served and even saved, despite the fact that there has never been a single independently existing being in need of saving, including ourselves. This is a great and marvelous mystery, and a humorous one too, though confounding to the discursive mind that would like to have everything filed and figured out.

Buddha's concept of saving beings was to cause them all to enter into Nirvana. If one was to become a Bodhisattva, dedicated to saving all beings, the aim was just this, to cross all sentient beings over to Nirvana. However, in the Diamond Sutra, Buddha demonstrated his sense of humor by noting:

"All types of beings, whether egg-born, womb-born, moisture-born, or transformationally-born, whether possessed of form or formless, whether possessed of thought or free of thought, whether neither possessed of thought nor free of thought -- I cause them all to enter the nirvana without residue and thus cross them over to extinction. As I cross over to extinction in this manner an incalculable, innumerable and unbounded number of beings, in truth there are no beings whatsoever who succeed in being crossed over into extinction. Why is this so? Subhuti, If a bodhisattva retains the mark of a self, the mark of a person, the mark of a being or the mark of one with a life span, he is just a non-bodhisattva."

The point is, when we see someone in need of being served, we must serve them, even though it is a dream, a mirage, a hallucination of the mind. After all, we are love, and love must love. Thus the wise do all sorts of foolish things, like lecturing on nothingness to nobody, teaching emptiness to empty chairs, and performing countless compassionate good deeds, even though there is no such thing as good or bad, absolutely speaking.

There is only Source, without a second, and so who is there to benefit from good deeds? Still, love must love. As long as there is the illusion of separation, the function of love comes into play, even though it may not even look like love to the mind that still makes distinctions of “me and mine”.

This is no contradiction to the Realized, only to us who still see some difference between saved and unsaved, lost and found, plus and minus, sacred and profane. Paradoxically, that's apparently the way the absolute would have it played, just so that It, Source, can discover Itself over and over again in the relative -- in these humble and transparent forms of you and me and everyone.


:yo:

[Tony]

Some scientists say that matter does not exist--- everything is consciousness ie a projection of the mind.

Ramesh Balskar said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"

inherent in that, is that the illusion is supposed to seem real and we are supposed to act as though it is real.
There would not be illusion-- duality-- without the ego.
So at the highest level, yes its not true as it is ever changing, only Truth is permanent.
However we must act according to our own spiritual level.

This video may help.
Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUU3p5iHMA

There is no matter----

In the words of John Lennon---"Nothing is real nothing to go on about"
Davis Icke "Only unconditional love is real"

However it is vital that compassion, forgiveness, love is shown to our own self and others.
Enlightenment is freedom from ignorance that we are individuals separate from "God/source"
There is only One without a second.
That which we resist persists -- the more we try to correct the ills of this world, the more weight we give to them.-- we strengthen their reality.
The Truth is Consciousness is both form and formless and neither--- the mind cant get that.

The middle path seems to be an answer.
Honour the form that life has taken but see beyond it.
Wear the world like a loose garment (Jesus quote)
Being knee jerk reactive has not worked.
Gandhi’s way worked up to a point.

Regards Chris




You are right Chris, if we can do everything with as much love as we can muster, we cannot go far wrong!


Love,
Tony

[ljwheat]

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ttwVRNlXPoI

Yes your right Tony, but the opposite is true also, since everything is energy--- and we are experts in arranging that energy anyway we so choose---- hence the "word"--- creators of our own world. All things I create ---- is my created energy bubble--- I choose to have. My reality only. That’s why everyone is correct ---and no one is wrong--- as long as they stay in there own bubble. ---- Care to look into mine ?

John xoxo :bump:

[ljwheat]

Once one has a handle on the reality of energy is what we are and everything in our perception--- is space between particles moving as energy, and that we can manipulate this personal energy--- then what Bashar talks about changing to a parallel world is very possible in dead as all things are nothing but energy, and our perception of it--- is the world we create.

5lsfnYm3GbE

[we-R-one]

Once one has a handle on the reality of energy is what we are and everything in our perception--- is space between particles moving as energy, and that we can manipulate this personal energy--- then what Bashar talks about changing to a parallel world is very possible in dead as all things are nothing but energy, and our perception of it--- [B]is the world we create.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lsfnYm3GbE

That is such a great video/audio lj! It just can't be posted enough! And yet, people still operate in fear and put much focus and energy into fear based topics. I mean how much more "physical proof" does one need that you are the creator of your own reality. The science is there to back up what Bashar is saying, so why are so few listening??? Sigh....

[ljwheat]

Once one has a handle on the reality of energy is what we are and everything in our perception--- is space between particles moving as energy, and that we can manipulate this personal energy--- then what Bashar talks about changing to a parallel world is very possible in dead as all things are nothing but energy, and our perception of it--- [B]is the world we create.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lsfnYm3GbE

That is such a great video/audio lj! It just can't be posted enough! And yet, people still operate in fear and put much focus and energy into fear based topics. I mean how much more "physical proof" does one need that you are the creator of your own reality. The science is there to back up what Bashar is saying, so why are so few listening??? Sigh....

Now is the time to really look at what matter and reality are from what we know in science. The internet plays a big part in showing how everything in this world was handed to us, and for a reason. “CONTROL” money, and greed.

Once your at Energy thinking and Energy seeing level --- you realize that everything is barrowed energy from some where, you can not possess anything. Its just barrowed. Used and returned to its source - more energy. If this were taught in kinder garden on,---then we would be the Pleiadians' instead of dreaming them into existence. The elites know this and are keeping us from the truth shall set you free-- in all this energy control awareness. All the Drama is there for a purpose, For Drama kills awareness--- the beginning of sight into everythingness is energy--- and the controllers are wizards. Free masonry is all about wizards and Energy Masonry Manipulation.

Because at birth all the movies set in place by men--- are shown and taught-- in our schools -- that we are people and have rights----- instead of we are energy and can creat anything we need, we never had a chance till now. The cat is out of the bag, and there scared sh - - less that we will start using it as they have and turn it all around on there ass. these two video's hold the ultimit freedom for man kind. its finaly out of the bag. thanks Tony for opening this thread. John xoxo

[Tony]

Where science and spirituality meet....?

[DeDukshyn]

After reading Tony's first post - I came to the conclusion that this thread is not really about whether pleiadians exist or not .. am I wrong? Maybe I have gotten this thread all wrong and was looking too deep into what Tony was actually saying? I don't know. Bill and others seem to think that this is what it was a bout -- does almost no on on Avalon understand philosophy? I don't know ... Maybe I'm just on another planet ... and Tony came to visit? ;) ;) ;)

I do understand philosophy, and Tony is fiddling while Rome is burning -- but, wait a minute, Rome doesn't absolutely exist either, and neither does Tony absolutely exist (except to himself) -- so it all doesn't absolutely matter at all.

:)

There's nothing wrong with exercising your mind via exploration of these concepts. It may even strengthen it to help deal with the persistent illusion of a burning Rome ;) My 2 cents ;)

[ljwheat]

If we could see like Neo did in the matrix when he was standing in the hall way at smith and the other two agents and his vision suddenly turned x-ray -- seeing everything including himself as a energy stream.

Then all this would be a piece of cake, like it is for Mr. Smith and the rest of the elite that see this why since birth they were taught this way of living. We have just entered the hall way at last.

Now we must teach each other this new sight and understanding. That anything is possible in the matrix -- now that we know what it is we are dealing with. Shall we start a new thread -- a class in walking in energy as energy, emphasis on seeing the energy stream in the hall way as a start.?

Staying away from isums that lead back to control programs. Names and lableing.

John xoxo


The new class or thread is open, http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?49342-OPEN-Class-RM-Matrix-Energy-You-Everything

[deridan]

why the emphasis?
should we consider that we do see ufos
well something alien does exist (from another planet, or interdimensionally intersecting time), or its perhaps us, future humans, time travelers

yes there is something. tony once again attacks the group consciousness it supports and hubs, something i have no problem with [for if i had time of inclination (that's if the weeds had really troubled me) i'd ...]

the title is marketory(p), the text is dissolving(all)
i guess the need is,..well, no contactee, jsut an observator, to explain the plethora of reactions:
..i.e. something bad scary is going on and it must be greys...
or,..nothing scary ever happens to me, must be our cousins.

yes, they don't exist as in the impact on us is absolutely zilch
secretly behind the machinations they must exist
& to me who was not involved in mass consciousness anyway, i don't need to regard the squanderings

[we-R-one]

Once one has a handle on the reality of energy is what we are and everything in our perception--- is space between particles moving as energy, and that we can manipulate this personal energy--- then what Bashar talks about changing to a parallel world is very possible in dead as all things are nothing but energy, and our perception of it--- [B]is the world we create.

That is such a great video/audio lj! It just can't be posted enough! And yet, people still operate in fear and put much focus and energy into fear based topics. I mean how much more "physical proof" does one need that you are the creator of your own reality. The science is there to back up what Bashar is saying, so why are so few listening??? Sigh....

Now is the time to really look at what matter and reality are from what we know in science. The internet plays a big part in showing how everything in this world was handed to us, and for a reason. “CONTROL” money, and greed.

Once your at Energy thinking and Energy seeing level --- you realize that everything is barrowed energy from some where, you can not possess anything. Its just barrowed. Used and returned to its source - more energy. If this were taught in kinder garden on,---then we would be the Pleiadians' instead of dreaming them into existence. The elites know this and are keeping us from the truth shall set you free-- in all this energy control awareness. All the Drama is there for a purpose, For Drama kills awareness--- the beginning of sight into everythingness is energy--- and the controllers are wizards. Free masonry is all about wizards and Energy Masonry Manipulation.

Because at birth all the movies set in place by men--- are shown and taught-- in our schools -- that we are people and have rights----- instead of we are energy and can creat anything we need, we never had a chance till now. The cat is out of the bag, and there scared sh - - less that we will start using it as they have and turn it all around on there ass. these two video's hold the ultimit freedom for man kind. its finaly out of the bag. thanks Tony for opening this thread. John xoxo

I'm so glad this is being discussed as I feel the same way....and not because some book is telling me, but through my own personal experiences with energy. Energy is everything, it is our future. At a very young age and into my adulthood I was quite familiar with the power that one could create by using energy. Most of these skill sets became evident through my metaphysical abilities. Before I fully understood all of this, the only word I could come up with to describe what I was doing was the utilization of energy. Now I am more than confident based on what I have learned, that energy was exactly what I was harnessing and utilizing. It was so natural for me, as if I had subconsciously always known. Most likely my star seed attributes had much to do with the skill set, but that being said, I believe it is something that all can do, it's not for just a select few...it's the mind that makes one think this is not possible and the set of beliefs are what limits the masses from understanding. Compile that with living in a lower frequency environment and the task to harness becomes even more challenging.

There is energy all around us and as I have mentioned in previous threads, it's a fuel source! There's so much fuel around us that's not being tapped into!!!

And the reason it's not being tapped into, is because people don't recognize it to be that of a fuel source.
Jumping up and down now!! :clap2:

One example is the energy of emotions. Often when I've experienced a metaphysical occurrence, I have noticed that it's tied into my emotions.....I "feel" it. Meaning I "feel" the energy. It's not like my hair stands on ends, lol. But the activity generated is felt through my emotions. For example, I have shaken someone's hand before and "felt" their thoughts at that very moment go right up my arm without them even speaking. I knew without a doubt what they were thinking. Another example, when I was a little girl, I could "feel" bugs on the wall even when the lights were out. I could tell you exactly where on the wall they could be found, and it wasn't because I was hearing them either, lol. I knew how to "feel" energy, enough so that I could read it. There are countless other examples I could describe, but I think you get the point.

Instead of looking at oneself of as a victim to a particular event, I encourage those to change the way you think. Look at your situation as fuel, when something awful happens to you! Transmute the energy! This serves two purposes, it pulls you out of victim hood and it transmutes the energy; by doing this, you are also changing your environment and your reality. By taking the negative energy of the bad experience and transforming it into emotions of love and forgiveness by being grateful, you are aiding in the transformation of both this planet and yourself to a higher frequency. Additionally you are changing your DNA structure! This is the future and only a tip of the iceberg as to what one can really do. Imagine the effects of this realization on a mass scale?

It is my belief that all these bad things happening around us are necessary and needed. No, I'm not kidding and it will continue to get worse. If earth is going through such a huge transformation on a planetary scale, which I'm convinced it is......you need that negative energy to continue the transformation. The opportunity is offered to everyone, whether you have something bad happen to you are not. You can take any situation and transform the negative energy that is provided- it doesn't necessarily have to belong to you. And if it does belong to you, remember, Earth is an illusion and we know this isn't real down here, it's a game. And this is how you play!

THE SOLUTION
In one hand I want you to think about all the good things out of this situation that have happened and I want you to be grateful......in the other hand, I want you to think about all the bad things out of the this situation and I want you to be grateful. I want you to do this thought process in your heart, not your brain, extremely important and not to be overlooked! Integrating both of those thought processes is acceptance. You accept each side of the experience, good and bad, for what they have to offer. Integration point of acceptance should be the emergence of thoughts of love, compassion and forgiveness, which in turn transmutes the negative energy into an energy of a higher frequency, or positive.

This is your solution, this is our solution, this is heart-centered, and this is the future.

Now, no guru taught me this, so I don't want to hear that excuse. This was self-taught and the very concept that allowed me to experience a kundalini. The kudalini was the result of transmuting energy, so I know this works. I offer this information to you for free, no strings attached as it was meant to be given.

What will you do? Will you walk away or will you be a part of the solution? Better yet, what have you got to loose by implementing this thought process?

[Moxie]

Illusion/Maya is that which is temporary.
In that context, may I suggest to you that Evil is Temporary.

And too, the saying that "you create your own reality" is true to the extent that one has their private perceptions and actions, but it does not mean that you created your body or this world or this dimension. You may be a "part" of that which did, however, the micro to the macro I'm speaking of.
Evil being temporary certainly means that it is real Now.
Our bodies are temporary for example. But until they die, they are surely real. I'm more than implying that your physical body is a tool created by the Evil Demigod.

I'm saying the Demigod/Demiurge of this physical dimension is a temporary, abberant, delusional, fabricator God and this dimension is an evil fabricated one. There are Two Creations, evil and Divine. An accident, as True Gnosis reveals, called the Great Celestial Error, is very real. A 12 year old could come up with a better creation than this one where you live some 80 yrs and die. .... born in a temporary body, into amnesia w/no knowledge of who you are or what is going on, completely dependent on care for several years... having to eat other conscious life forms, subject to microbes, pollution (environmental, mental and spiritual), false indoctrinations,
split into genders with a hardwired, sexual program, aging, disease and finally death, to mention but a few attributes of the physical "life". We even take antioxidents because oxygen does its own damage.

This world is cruelty. The sooner that sinks in the better.
So many people, True Beings, have despaired in alcoholism, drug addictions because of the torments that happen in this life. However momentary are your perceived reprieves, nonetheless, everything around you is a depiction, a pictorial illustration of a terminal existence.

Ask yourself : What kind of god created the death experience? I think that is fundamentally an important question and would cause one to sit back and consider that this temporary life is Evil, fundamentally because a Divine Consciousness of Purity does not intend such things. The word evil is a trigger word that may have a religious tone, but I'm suggesting that we sorely underestimate just what evil is. Some actually say that All if ONE. The Lord's Prayer even says "lead me not into temptation"(as if Divine Consciousness WOULD>>>> hello? But the next part has been heard "deliver us from evil".

AND we certainly underestimate Divinity, another trigger word... benevolence.... that the predominance of Divine Life is actually above and outside this physical dimension. infinitely filled with pure Divine Life, and yes, where Evil delusionally intends to encroach, and has begun, such is the complexity. There are many dimensions other than this one.

I'm also suggesting that the biggest lie we've accepted is that there is only one Creator God status being. There are many in the hierarchy without such things as envy, one upmanship, that sort of thing.

I think back to all the many "one liners" I've read these past several years online, that stuck for me in putting together this grand puzzle. Even prior to having my first computer in '97/'98, my father, a man of few philosophical words, said out loud one day, "Life feeds on Life". That one STUCK and was placed on the backburner for later. Where did that put me on the "food" chain I wondered? Another one someone posted at the original Avalon. They wrote "whatever makes you think that the creator of this world is benevolent?" And I think it was Bronte Baxter who wrote "that we die and have to eat other life forms", all thoughts I'd had since very young and here was permission gifted to finally say it out loud! Who IS this God??? Thank you Bronte.

Prior to pc world, I had already studied the origin of religions, experienced a cult or two personally. I studied the food chain, the medical industry, etymology (the study of words) and it was ever clear to me that there was a parallel bottom line in whatever subject you cared to research. Deception, delusion & mind control. Some "rabbit holes" told of pretty sick and vile, disgusting practices. All of it wasn't an effing waste of time but WAS of energy, (some of it angst, leaving me very troubled), yet it was a damned shame because it took the greater part of this temporary life to arrive where I am now. This real-eyes-ation resulted from an inner, unquenchable, incessant drive to KNOW and it was the necessary ingredient that brought me personally confronting all these horrible facts that were discovered in this messed up world... that there was seemingly NO way out or no way to remedy any of it, because I too, as so many here think, and arrogantly so, that I could emanicipate or graduate this world on my own! How many threads here are addressing "solutions"? It was with utter humility that I finally "got" the total download, well, much of it :)

I could see BY the exposures I had, that Goodness, benevolence, the Divine inner being was entirely disadvantaged in this plane, living in a body that is, by its nature, a type of prison itself. The Divine Mind does not naturally consider such things as what Evil has produced if and/or until the evil means presents itself in a recognizable way, however subtle and hidden many were initially. This point is often entirely overlooked because from the get-go of birth, we are swept into the madness right away and indoctrinated in this One God Creator status being deception. It sounded right.

It was easy for me these past couple of years especially, to arrive to recognize the profound conclusion that this physical dimension is, by its nature, Evil and is ruled by an Evil God, an evil force that is not explained better anywhere else than in True Gnostisicm (which takes discernment too mind you, it's been distorted too). Gnosis means knowledge and that knowledge was already available within me, as someone mentioned earlier, as an Essence, which is why I was initiated to understand this important "news".

It's also clear to me that not all people are ontologically homogenous and I'm not talking about skin color / race.
I don't care if you are from Orion or Dallas, a physical being is a physical being, subject to the same conditions, hence this entire dimension (including the astral) is Evil. Divine Beings can be in the physical dimension, in fact, the Evil Dimension could not survive without the trapped Divine Essence because that is its fuel, the ones that draw on True sustenance, Divine Pranic Energy, or at least it was until it too became distorted. Evil, however, cannot abide within a Divine Dimension, but such is Evil's power and intention to do so, to infiltrate even higher dimensions. It will not happen as this dimension will soon be destroyed and transmuted to Primordial Unmanifest.

We are, in fact, living within an evil god's creation, known as Jehovah/Yaldabaoth/Rex Mundi, the one in the Old Testament that delusionally declares itself the Only True God

If it's your need-to-know the details how this came to be, you can tap into the knowledge. I do accept it because it's the only thing that make any sense... that there was a great Celestial Error that spawned an abberative force (known as Evil) that has grown in power at first by subtlety, which crystalized this dimension, managing to sequester itself off from Source, trapping the unaware Divine Beings within in, fabricating these bodies as an overlay so to speak, along with its program of reincarnation AND karma. This IS the Terminal Situation in which we find ourselves.

How could we not know that Evil is Temporary, an Accidental Creation BY an "upline" Creator God (yes, they make make experimental errors, usually corrected immediately) and THE Correction for this error is in progress meaning EVERYTHING you could think of has already been tried... unconditional love, compassion, beauty, it's all been exhausted. I dont' know about you but I'm damned tired myself! The Supreme of Supremes itself has deemed FIT and IS the Power to carry out the extermination (the ridding of [ex] this termination which is erroneously called Life in this dimension).

I chuckled to myself a couple years ago when the subject of psychopathy emmerged into our awareness and discussions soon filled the talk forums... I thought "oh good, let's bring it down a notch to something people can better relate to "other than ETs, which managed to bubble itself into a conspiratorial realm, unable to "win" adherents.

ETs, aliens, psychopaths, angels, humans... all words that mean one and the same thing, to me. But we must stop looking at people including ETs as bodies but as Essences... evil or divine.

Psychopaths are defined as not having certain attributes, such as remorse while also being highly intellingent, but most importantly, they cannot be rehabilitated. They will use your love against you but, as with yours, their bodies too feel pain and all that goes with the physical senses. It's the Essence within that carries out purpose.

It's clear to me that there are TWO essences and either one of them can be awake or asleep. That being the case, we have physical bodies (shells) in three states:
>Evil Essence, aware or unaware (minions specially created by its God)
>Hybrids w/both good & evil essences within (awake/asleep)
and >True Divine Essence, awakened or not.
Plus we're operating as divided genders, to boot!
There are, of course, Special Beings created in this "war" and there is NO chance that True Divine Consciousness loses.

STILL I think we could agree that MOST people are asleep, hence they are not conscious of what is going on, which means their consciousness is in error, who may or may not awaken. That makes the predominance of people in the world operating Evil's influence unaware. Those with the true may suffer dearly!

Not a pretty picture. This whole situation is about Energy.
To lose your Divine Essence is energetic loss and is the goal of Evil, the capture of your energetics to maintain and enlarge its empire.

There is Nothing to actually be gained here except to become contaminated w/the influences of Evil.... to lose your Essence which is your demise. That means to give your energy away by the choices one makes willfully or in ignorance. What you eat, what you drink, thoughts (including implanted memes), mind parasites I call them [archons exist] that dictate actions. Seems to me that our food chain is a major programming tool because I do believe that what we eat affects our brain which like a radio, enables expression of the mind. The sexual program is the most successful means of energetic loss. No spiritual progress... ANY which you subjectively experience and deem as progresse is all simply part of the awakening, however in degrees it happens.

What else... vaccines, microbes, pollution, the media, schools, sexuality (hardwired /energy exhange), religious indoctrinations, drugs (street or prescription), alcohol, the outer mind (EGO), the company you keep.... everywhere you turn, it's constant opportunity to become emotionally depleted, to lose your Divine Essence, if you have one.

Personally, I can accept that Evil can not be turned or be changed and no amount of Love or compassion has made a difference.

And it's clear to me that ALL spiritual "masters" that have made historical record (of which became distorted too) were NOT here to SAVE anyone. (Most True Beings are incognito). Almost all of them arrived in a baby's body just as you did and had Initiatives/Initiations that awakened them just as you had. Mentally blank slated on arrival! Their Divine Essence (which became trapped here when this dimension was spawned) awakened as an inherent ability/capacity and ultimatley came to Liberate others' consciousness to this simple (but not easy) reckoning of the fundamental condition of being human, to allow your Inner Nous to awaken so that you could then cleanse yourself and protect yourself from further damage and know Joy.

There is nothing else you can do while you still have this body and are still trapped here in this recycling dimension that is out of your control. These "Avatars" were NOT the actual Liberator, they came to awaken you to the eventual and ultimate Liberation to come, the destruction and transmutation of this evil dimension back to Primordial Unmanifest, liberating your Being to its Original State. (and yes, there is such a thing as "walk-ins" both good and evil).

The "Avatar's" messages told of a Great Liberation to take place wherein the Error would be finally corrected by the Power that can do it. The definition of the Correction is Transmutation. Prophecies from all cultures speak of this.

I believe that we are fast approaching the End of the Correction process. And I believe that it will happen in my lifetime and I'm sixty yrs old. I mean the Final and Complete End of the physical dimension ! I'm advised that we are the generation that will not know death, some of us. Some of us will require modifications to survive in the New dimension.

You can entertain yourself with reasons of why you think you are here, doesn't matter. You are still HERE and you are still in a body with restrictions no matter HOW awakened you are. Psychic ability is not an indication of which essence abides within you but more and more people are regaining these powers.

It amazes me that people can hash on about whether this or that alien is evil or good, it doesn't matter because they are ALL in the physical dimension and the entire dimension (and astral) is to be done away with. It doesn't matter if the elite go off world! And humorous too, many think that because they are here that this place must be divine somehow, some way! Any beauty that you may see is the result of Wisdom itself bestowing upon Evil, you could say, in a valiant attempt to "turn" the Error. Nature is Wisdom's handiwork but chances are you don't want to sleep in the woods much either because of predatores there as well. Animals also have Divine Essence and Evil Essence... all things are conscious.

Divine Beings are eternal. They are Permanent Essence. It is not within them to "sin". It's impossible that Divine Beings lose their Essence in Divine dimensions. It's only via this dimension where Evil is present along with its fabricated human bodies and various other means to distract and cause one to partake of the many ways to extract your energy that you find here in this world. Sin does not exist in the True Divine Creation. There IS no Hell created by Divine Creator, that is the doing of the Evil Demigod/Demiurge but this world itself could certainly qualify considering all the suffering and injustice everywhere. A Higher Divine Being actually has to lower its energetic fullness just to incarnate here.

And the Divine Creator did not create death, anguish, terror and such tormenting emotions that result from physical bodies. ALL emotions are energetic loss. The True Divine Creator does not bless Evil nor Love evil. Stay away from whatever Evil you see operating. Evil is not present in order for you to guage your spiritual progress as there is no progress here. That's all horse pucky! Divine Essence manifests itself as the ability to bypass your Ego, for example. It doesn't first torture it or punish it. Divine Creator is not punitive, that's Evil's work re: karma.

And I believe there is in fact, a Divine Hierarchy of Creator Beings, evolving infintely, all sourced from the same "pool". For someone to abstain from invoking Divine Assistance and further knowledge via meditation and contemplation is beyond me when everything that is really Divine is outside the physical dimension OR hiding anonymously within your "covered over" Inner True Essence, your Inner Mind while here is the only avenue for connection. Truly awakened beings do NOT find it "the good life" to be here when they know what sufferings and injustices prevail.

We already knew we were going to die, that's not a shock and awe thing to grasp. Be CLEAR on it though, that your Divine Essence is eternal, it's permanent and You are NOT your body. It can only bring great Joy to know that Evil is to be destroyed, never to be again. It erases fear. Spiritual Evolution WILL continue unencumbered by Evil or its reincarnation program & judgments. I understand that approx 30% of people presently are hosting pure evil and it's increasing daily. Talk about Illusion, how's that for one?

Illusion/Maya is Temporary and it is Evil. Temporary but very real. I'm advised that the End will manifest as Supramental Consciousness itself descends in plasma form. All will become aware of what's happening. You will just know what to do. There will be no faking as to who you are.

We must Prepare for and Endure what time is left.
"Suffer" whatever comes without Emotion as much as possible because the Evil ones are starving for energy at this "time". A very large portion of Divine Consciousness has already vacated this plane. Many of us are a part of the "Rescue" Team. See people not as bodies but as Essence and it makes it far easier. Your true family is with Divine Beings and not physical bodies.

I understand too that there is a New Energy coming in, created especially for this period and is ONLY available to those with Divine Essence. More and more people will be "losing it" as we are already seeing. You may have received the quality of this New Energy that is sustaining you, allowing you to bypass and endure the whiles of this world's distractions. Turn to it daily, eat wise, drink wise, meditate, protect with Divine Light, be helpful where you can.


****
Bill Ryan wrote: "I do understand philosophy, and Tony is fiddling while Rome is burning -- but, wait a minute, Rome doesn't absolutely exist either, and neither does Tony absolutely exist (except to himself) -- so it all doesn't absolutely matter at all.

Me: I appreciate that kind & light hearted critique. Some heads are lost in the clouds.

Good day. I will likely not be participating any more.

[greybeard]

Having watched the Bashar video posted here http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?49260-Proof-that-Pleiadians-and-the-rest-do-not-Absolutely-exist-&p=547868&viewfull=1#post547868

I can truthfully say that in my world there are only positive experiences.
thanks ljwheat for posting it.

Chris

[we-R-one]

Moxie,

I have to tell you, I was going to politely read the small novel that you posted, but you know what stopped me? Seeing your last comment, "I will likely not be participating anymore". Really?

I'm glad I caught that before I started reading your post. I think it's disrespectful to other forum members to come on another persons thread and expect all the posters to listen to your commentary and a long one might I add, to only have you say, "I will likely not be participating anymore." So I see no point in even reading your post as you seem to project that you have no interest in discussing your comments/claims or anyone else's for that matter. What a disappointment,

Respectfully yours,

we-R-one

[RunningDeer]

Thought more of this post... needed to be deleted.

[we-R-one]

WCBD, thanks for the applause- that photo is so funny, lol. I usually try and stay neutral, but that was just something that needed to be said. I spend a lot of time reading what others have to say, more than I do commenting myself. I found Moxie's disposition to be offensive and not the proper etiquette that so many of the posters on Avalon deserve, especially those that put a lot of time into sharing their wealth of information and experiences day in and day out. I mean seriously, we're suppose to read what Moxie has to say, but the helll with the rest of us and our opinions? Am I missing something?

¤=[Post Update]=¤

of course I posted the same time as you, so I see that you deleted what you had originally shared.... anyways...it needed to be said.

[Anchor]

I would just like to thank everyone of you (and me) for helping me to create the reality I experience.

[RunningDeer]

Thought more of this post... needed to be deleted.


WCBD, thanks for the applause- that photo is so funny, lol. I usually try and stay neutral, but that was just something that needed to be said.

Hi We-R-One

I admired how you spoke your truth, and I agree with your points. Then, I thought it's unfair for me to "gang up".

Ramdom thoughts:

I haven't experienced the clarity that you have like the bug on the wall in the dark, or hearing specific thoughts through the hand shake. I pick up impressions of feelings, auras and their sense of presence. It's time we all use them as just another part of our tool set.

I've written elsewhere about my son's passing. When I read your post of using all energies, the perceived negative and positive, that came to mind. It was the most transformative experience so far. The willingness to be vulnerable and open to whatever comes up, without expectation of a prize in the end. Face it for no other reason than because it's what's sucking life out of you in that moment. I've promised myself not to wait so long. Awareness is the tool, and an open the heart, and some courage to move it along. To use your words: "...which in turn transmutes the negative energy into an energy of a higher frequency, or positive."

And your take about all through the heart...yes! I use heart/mind. That's my critical understanding for what drives this vehicle. You are your beliefs, another big one.

And now I'm rambling. It's been nice visiting with you. :wave:

Peace,
WhiteCrowBlackDeer

[we-R-one]

Thought more of this post... needed to be deleted.


WCBD, thanks for the applause- that photo is so funny, lol. I usually try and stay neutral, but that was just something that needed to be said.

Hi We-R-One

I admired how you spoke your truth, and I agree with your points. Then, I thought it's unfair for me to "gang up".

Yes, I understand.

Ramdom thoughts:

I haven't experienced the clarity that you have like the bug on the wall in the dark, or hearing specific thoughts through the hand shake. I pick up impressions of feelings, auras and their sense of presence. It's time we all use them as just another part of our tool set. Yes, I agree, it's almost like creating another "sensory" organ, in addition to having our abilitites to see, touch, hear, feel and taste. I suppose this could be described as your sixth sense.

I've written elsewhere about my son's passing. When I read your post of using all energies, the perceived negative and positive, that came to mind. It was the most transformative experience so far. The willingness to be vulnerable and open to whatever comes up, without expectation of a prize in the end. Face it for no other reason than because it's what's sucking life out of you in that moment. I've promised myself not to wait so long. Awareness is the tool, and an open the heart, and some courage to move it along. To use your words: "...which in turn transmutes the negative energy into an energy of a higher frequency, or positive."

First I'd like to say my condolences for the loss of your son. I'm sure this has been extremely painful for you. That being said, what you are conveying is music to my ears as it says that someone not only understands what I'm saying but is actually considering trying the thought process AND is all ready thinking about which situations in their life they can apply the very concept to. You exemplify exactly how I would hope people would begin to think. I can't ask for anything more. I believe we are seeing an uptick in terrible events, because it has to be so in your face, for people to "get it", and even then, most won't. Because if the negative situation always made sense.....well then, you would just blow it off as an expectation of what one can expect to endure in this lifetime. The point being, is it's not always suppose to making sense. The pain, is your fuel if you choose to change the way you perceive your situation. The more pain, the more fuel.

I hope if you try it, that it brings you the peace, relief and insight that it has brought me. This is how you get away from the eye for an eye concept, which is no longer needed, this is how you remove anger and the lower vibrational frequencies that accompany that emotion......and yes, with no expectation of a prize. Had I not come to this conclusion when I did, the situation that created the path to my kundalini experience would have eaten me alive and there's no telling where I'd be today had I not chosen to change the way I think.

And your take about all through the heart...yes! I use heart/mind. That's my critical understanding for what drives this vehicle. You are your beliefs, another big one.
Agreed

And now I'm rambling. It's been nice visiting with you. :wave:

Peace,
WhiteCrowBlackDeer


Hi WhiteCrow,
My responses are in blue above. Hugs to you and thanks so much for sharing your thoughts :hug:

[Tarka the Duck]

Does anyone else find it really funny when you return to a thread the next day, and find it's headed off in a direction that you never would have foreseen!!! :o I feel like I've stepped into a parallel universe here...!

It's interesting to read what people have wanted to write about, so thank you for that. And threads are dynamic I know - but wasn't the OP about the NATURE of reality rather than whether we create our own relative reality? Or have I misunderstood something?

[Tony]

Manifestation.

Consciousness creates everything. It has the power to create the world in which we live. Although we seem to be in one world, we actually live in separate worlds...our own relative bubbles! We are the creators of our own mental reality: whatever we do or think creates our present moment.

Most of the time we create and maintain confusion, and our own confusion creates suffering.

This thread is about absolute reality, and confused reality.
Our absolute essence just...'is'.
It is pure and aware. That's it!
It does nothing. It watches as flowers grow and Rome burns, all with one taste.
This is pure awareness.

Here's where the confusion comes in.
That pure awareness can either express itself for the benefit of others, or manifest selfish activity.
The manifestation of pure awareness is love.
The manifestation of selfishness is not.

Actually, pure awareness is quite dry: however, when realised, it naturally radiates as 'expression pure awareness' - which is compassion. The juice is compassion.

If we ignore pure awareness, and merely want to express ourselves, then “I” create “my” reality - which is a mental illusion.
We can either use energy for the benefit of others (using whatever skills we have), or we can use energy to destroy (sending little barbed arrows, and causing suffering for our entertainment).

Wanting to create a beautiful manifestation is what the 'elite' are all about. The physical world can never be perfect and happy, because it has to be maintained and defended, which produces aggression. We all feel this within when our selves our attacked. This is because we have a relative conventional view, 'believing' it all to be absolutely real, when it is all a temporary mirage.

However, this human body in this physical world is perfect if viewed from an absolute pure awareness viewpoint.
The absolute sees this manifestation as a perfect illusion, and a perfect place to transcend confusion!

This may not be easy to understand as we have had fixated ideas about reality for a very long time. This is why we have to be kind to our relative self, and others!

We start to wake up when our minds and hearts open...a good heart = easy path.

Our contrived (relative) reality is challenging, and our clinging consciousness (ego) will feel threatened at every turn. That is the very moment to let go, and create space....space!
That spaciousness of just letting go will bring such joy.

First, have Compassion for yourself and then the juice will just flow.

A good heart means not holding onto ideas about others or oneself.
A good heart is naturally unconditional...true Compassion is the only reality.

Tony

(I would sincerely like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread...every single entry has added to the clarity of this topic. Without all our different views, clarity is not possible. All this triggers our insight. Thank you.)

[Omni]

I see no proof they do not exist in your post pineal. I have many posts about what I have learned with ETs. Asking for proof of ETs isn't exactly the best thing to do. You'll have to settle for evidence not proof if you are interested in the real stuff.

[Tarka the Duck]

When we use the word "illusion", it seems there is a "double illusion".

The first is the illusion of all phenomena appearing to be real when in fact it has not true reality as it is just a temporary arrangement of atoms.
The second is our personal way of perceiving these phenomena - we see them in an incorrect illusory way, by ascribing them a reality they don't have.

[Tony]

I see no proof they do not exist in your post pineal. I have many posts about what I have learned with ETs. Asking for proof of ETs isn't exactly the best thing to do. You'll have to settle for evidence not proof if you are interested in the real stuff.


Hello Omniverse,

All beings exist in two realities at the same time:
one is a body/mind reality......"If you prick me, do I not bleed?"!
and the other is a pure being, beyond this body/mind reality.

We are embodied beings.

All being who identify with a body/mind reality will suffer. This reality is changeable and impermanent, so has no constant reality. It cannot in fact then be called reality - just a seeming reality!

When pure being is realised, there is no suffering...there is no thing going on!

As long as we play in consciousness/mind we will suffer.
There are those who will take advantage of our holding on to a body/mind 'reality'! In Consciousness we can be made to believe anything. That is what the magician does! They may be of earthly origins or not: it doesn't matter.

But they too have the same dilemma of misunderstanding absolute reality.

Tony

[ljwheat]

Do not trouble the mind, and the mind will not trouble you.

Mooji

[Tarka the Duck]

Do not trouble the mind, and the mind will not trouble you.

Mooji

Hello ljwheat

Which mind do you think he is referring to? The conceptual, conventional mind or the non-conceptual mind, which is the fundamental purity that realises emptiness?

I'd be interested to hear more about how you understand that statement.

Kathie

[ljwheat]

Do not trouble the mind, and the mind will not trouble you.

Mooji

Hello ljwheat

Which mind do you think he is referring to? The conceptual, conventional mind or the non-conceptual mind, which is the fundamental purity that realises emptiness?

I'd be interested to hear more about how you understand that statement.

Kathie

I would have to think Mooji was referring to the non-conceptual mind. As in a child is a pure witness to but not attached to any built conceptual trigger’s. Neutral in acceptance of what is being witnessed.

Do not put the mind in gear, and it will not run away with you in tow. The tow line being conceptual.


John xoxo

[Fred Steeves]

Most of the time we create and maintain confusion, and our own confusion creates suffering.

This thread is about absolute reality, and confused reality.
Our absolute essence just...'is'.
It is pure and aware. That's it!
It does nothing. It watches as flowers grow and Rome burns, all with one taste.
This is pure awareness.


Hey Tony, here's my little take on this. I don't think for one second, that the absolute awareness aspect of ourselves could simply find itself in our present situation, without the intent to make it so in the first place. Therefore, the confused state of Samsara can be seen as the state of suffering at one level, or a flawless divine plan from another.

What matters more, that things do or do not exist? Or that we see this through to the best of our ability, and let the chips fall where they may?

Cheers Mate,
Fred

[ljwheat]

Like the "Red dot" On a location Map “you are Here”. The red dot your standing on is a neutral mind looking over the map.

The conceptual mind try’s to leave the Dot behind. When the Dot is permit ink always present. --- “always neutral “

The power of NOW is the red Dot your standing on.

John xoxo

[Tony]

Hello Fred,
(missed you!)

We all have our own take on things.

Hence.......“Consciousness creates everything. It has the power to create the world in which we live. Although we seem to be in one world, we actually live in separate worlds...our own relative bubbles! We are the creators of our own mental reality: whatever we do or think creates our present moment.”.....we also maintains it!

It all depends if we 'believe' that we can effect a change or not, in our present situation or awareness. Do we naturally evolve, or do we make an effort to cut through our present limited view?

I know my view is very limited, I'm always asking for help!

If we are satisfied with our lot, then is wonderful. If we are not satisfied with our lot, that too is wonderful. We go at our own capacity, it is neither good or bad. The more we are aware of the possibilities of human potential, the more we realise that what we 'hold' onto is worthless.

However, saying that, sometimes we need a support, for awhile. As in meditation, when thoughts are wild, focusing on the breath will help. Knowing different methods can help us. We can use whatever method is useful.

The point of this thread, is questioning the absolute reality of 'outsiders', conventionally we are led to believe they exist. Which creates hope and fear, which creates confusion.



Tony

[Tony]

I wonder if we have different understanding of the word 'Absolute'?

Here it is meant as absolutely real.
If a thing is real, it has to be always real, if it truly 'exists', it must always 'exist'.
No thing that is created is permanent.

Parts of a thing come together for a while then disperse.

Absolute here means 'something' that does not change, as in space.....and pure being.
....and subtle elements flying around!

[Jenci]

I wonder if we have different understanding of the word 'Absolute'?



I would say so, Tony. Unless a person reaches the Absolute in their enquiry and investigation, then any understanding of it will be limited.



The Absolute is that which cannot be perceived.

or

Everything that is perceived is not the Absolute, including my description of what the Absolute is.


Jeanette

[DeDukshyn]

When we use the word "illusion", it seems there is a "double illusion".

The first is the illusion of all phenomena appearing to be real when in fact it has not true reality as it is just a temporary arrangement of atoms.
The second is our personal way of perceiving these phenomena - we see them in an incorrect illusory way, by ascribing them a reality they don't have.

Excellent distinction!

[DeDukshyn]

There is the "Nagual" and the "Tonal" -- the former being all that is unnameable or ineffable, the invisible, unknowable, the sea of unrealized potential. The latter being the nameable, the label-able, the "real", the actualization of consciousness, the realm of matter and thought.

There are those two components of reality, but it is more complex than that, because of the perception from an incomplete state - perception from the Tonal, which is different for every being, and therefore means something different to every being.

Until one knows the Nagual intimately, which contains all the Tonal, one cannot truly know the nature of reality, but must rely on his / her incomplete perceptions of the Tonal.

Another way of looking at it? My 2 cents ;)

[Tony]

I wonder if we have different understanding of the word 'Absolute'?



I would say so, Tony. Unless a person reaches the Absolute in their enquiry and investigation, then any understanding of it will be limited.



The Absolute is that which cannot be perceived.

or

Everything that is perceived is not the Absolute, including my description of what the Absolute is.


Jeanette




I suppose the problem is, as the awareness refines, we use the same word or words to (sort of) describe 'something', but the experience is different. So we all constantly talk at slightly cross purpose. On retreats, the worse thing one can do is discuss anything! A nod and a smile is enough!


Tony

[another bob]

There is the "Nagual" and the "Tonal" -- the former being all that is unnameable or ineffable, the invisible, unknowable, the sea of unrealized potential. The latter being the nameable, the label-able, the "real", the actualization of consciousness, the realm of matter and thought....Until one knows the Nagual intimately....


How are you going to know the unknowable, Brother? The eye cannot see itself. Fact is, you can not know it, because if you do, then it is merely an object of perception, and the Absolute is that which is neither perceivable or conceivable. You cannot know it, but only be it.


Any knowledge of any kind that you think you have can only be in the consciousness. How can the consciousness which came later give you any knowledge about that state which exists prior to consciousness’ arrival?

Any thought that you have reached, or are going to reach that state which exists prior, is false.

Whatever happens in consciousness is purely imaginary, a hallucination.

Therefore keep in mind the knowledge that it is consciousness in which everything is happening.

With that knowledge, be still, do not pursue any other thoughts which arise in consciousness.

All you need to understand is you are the source of reality, you give reality instead of getting it, you need no support and no confirmation.

With sure conviction Know that all is temporary, and does not reflect your True State.

~Sri Nisargadatta

[PurpleLama]

Funny, it is the "being" part, not just the identity, that is the problem, if that's how one chooses to see it, here. Just as the "I" is relative, so too is the "am". Seeing both as a relative thing, this "I" is really just "", and therefore has no problems, at all.

:cheers:

Confusion is just the flip side of Mystery.

[DeDukshyn]

There is the "Nagual" and the "Tonal" -- the former being all that is unnameable or ineffable, the invisible, unknowable, the sea of unrealized potential. The latter being the nameable, the label-able, the "real", the actualization of consciousness, the realm of matter and thought....Until one knows the Nagual intimately....


How are you going to know the unknowable, Brother? The eye cannot see itself. Fact is, you can not know it, because if you do, then it is merely an object of perception, and the Absolute is that which is neither perceivable or conceivable. You cannot know it, but only be it.


Any knowledge of any kind that you think you have can only be in the consciousness. How can the consciousness which came later give you any knowledge about that state which exists prior to consciousness’ arrival?

Any thought that you have reached, or are going to reach that state which exists prior, is false.

Whatever happens in consciousness is purely imaginary, a hallucination.

Therefore keep in mind the knowledge that it is consciousness in which everything is happening.

With that knowledge, be still, do not pursue any other thoughts which arise in consciousness.

All you need to understand is you are the source of reality, you give reality instead of getting it, you need no support and no confirmation.

With sure conviction Know that all is temporary, and does not reflect your True State.

~Sri Nisargadatta


"How are you going to know the unknowable, Brother? The eye cannot see itself. Fact is, you can not know it, because if you do, then it is merely an object of perception, and the Absolute is that which is neither perceivable or conceivable. You cannot know it, but only be it." -- exactly ;)

EDIT:
Perhaps the words "is the Nagual intimately" - are words better suited. I often choose my words less accurately than intended ;) ;)

Thanks for pointing that out ;)

[Tony]

Different views of reality.

Of course you may see this differently!

I have no doubt whatsoever that we all have the same potential as enlightened beings.
Our essential essence is Pure and our nature is Knowing.
All we have to do is recognise this, and drop all our habitual attitudes of conceptual fixations,
and there we are... Enlightened! The dropping all our habitual attitudes of conceptual fixations, does take a little work!

Without these two qualities of Clarity and Knowing there would be no... being!

But we must never forget the key to the unity of Clarity and Knowing, and that is the third quality of Compassion.

Compassion is not exactly the same as Love. Compassion is a noun – it is a quality, it is an empathy. Love is noun and verb – a quality and an action, it is an expression of Compassion.
First there is Emptiness, then Knowing, then Compassion, then Love....that then is Essence Love (the love that comes from essence, rather than sentiment).

Of course you may see this differently!

If either of the first two qualities, Emptiness or Knowing are missing, we fall into one of the two extremes of nihilism or eternalism...spaced out/pointless or everything is real/entertaining.

One of the problems in seeing or knowing reality, is that our consciousness (our mind)...and our brain set up... get in the way.

The problem seems to be in our different backgrounds, experience and usage of words, which will have an effect on our...brain neuro-pathways. We are 'joined up' differently, although with practice this can be changed...'firing and wiring'! The mind and brain is where experience is translated, and this is why we talk in many tongues. This is also where we need tolerance.

Of course we must not forget the influence of Aldus Huxley's “Brave New World” (illuminati) conveyor belt cocktail of drugs and propaganda, which has been introduced to our system since childhood!

Certain aspects of reality may not register with us, due to our understanding, vocabulary and brain neuro-pathways. Some people's reality is a geographical location (where they physically are), whereas for others it is something beyond their imagination. For others, reality is always changing, and for others it is knowing...for others it is just emptiness...

All we have to do is recognise our own habitual patterning, and ask ourselves,
“Is there more to know...or is there less to know?”




Tony

[Tony]

I recently went to visit an astronomer, and asked about unusual sightings, and was there anything coming our way. He said, that our planet is full of amateur astronomers who are connected. They have video cameras attached to their telescopes to record time lapse of any unusual movements. It just takes three photos run together to form an animation...stars stay still...anything unusual moves.

All they pick up are comet, meteorites and other bits of rocks. I asked have you seen anything unusual, he said "No". I asked could anything be hidden from us. He said, "No, too many people watching!" Of course he could be lying....

[Bill Ryan]

I recently went to visit an astronomer, and asked about unusual sightings, and was there anything coming our way. He said, that our planet is full of amateur astronomers who are connected. They have video cameras attached to their telescopes to record time lapse of any unusual movements. It just takes three photos run together to form an animation...stars stay still...anything unusual moves.


That's just in the visual spectrum. Amateur astronomers are not using infrared (very expensive, specialist equipment needed)... or third generation night vision goggles. :)

[Tony]

This was the place I went to: http://www.spaceguarduk.com/


The Spaceguard Centre is the only organisation in the UK addressing the hazard of Near Earth Objects.
NEOs are asteroids and comets that come close to, and sometimes collide with the Earth.
Such impacts can have devastating effects – they have in the past and will in the future unless we use available technologies to prevent them.

READ MORE...

[ljwheat]

Three D visual range. > I - I <

Four D visual range. > I ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I<

Five D visual range. > infinity <

Above this there are no words or labels > only pointing at a knowing > no ones been able to verbalize. In 3D

[ljwheat]

“Horton Hears a Who” Who is 3D, Horton is 4D, and the video that follows Dr. Seuss trailer is all the rest. How can our ego’s get so great and Inflated living on a speck.?


vax9r0ojlSA


SptZUP5nCpM


Inflated are men’s minds, Horton Hears a who, keeping it all in context. One speck bumping into another speck seemingly rubbing against enlightenment ? ‘REALLY’ ? :crazy:

The point of the needle that meet the record. 3D were all the noise is at. >I-I<

[Kristin]

Pie, LOL, and this it intended with the utmost humour...

After reading this thread I have decided that you do not exist, nor can you provide any profs that would convince me. Your avatar is a flock of birds and swamp gas. All I have ever known about you I have found on the internet... there is no substantial prof of your existing at all.

With much love from another non-existent,
Wormhole;)

[Fred Steeves]

With much love from another non-existent,
Wormhole;)

I can see a joke in the makings here Kristin: How many non-existents does it take, to screw in a non-existent lightbulb? http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/tounge.gif

Fred dives for cover!!!

[Tony]

Pie, LOL, and this it intended with the utmost humour...

After reading this thread I have decided that you do not exist, nor can you provide any profs that would convince me. Your avatar is a flock of birds and swamp gas. All I have ever known about you I have found on the internet... there is no substantial prof of your existing at all.

With much love from another non-existent,
Wormhole;)


Then I must be a ...sock-puppet!

[another bob]

How many non-existents does it take, to screw in a non-existent lightbulb? http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/tounge.gif

Fred dives for cover!!!

http://i45.tinypic.com/11r983k.jpg

[greybeard]

Pie, LOL, and this it intended with the utmost humour...

After reading this thread I have decided that you do not exist, nor can you provide any profs that would convince me. Your avatar is a flock of birds and swamp gas. All I have ever known about you I have found on the internet... there is no substantial prof of your existing at all.

With much love from another non-existent,
Wormhole;)


Then I must be a ...sock-puppet!

As long a your not unravelling Tony.
No fear of that--lol.
On the other "hand" there would be nothing left.
Chris

[Kristin]

:cantina:

I'm laughing and I thank you all!!!

[Hervé]

https://qy9cnq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pcvBHKVWrcbayeYzwskWzd0NjQqjfE6FkO8tjkyqdmHWyWN2HxGyVBWA0Elor1EdLrfs3jeZu-TjD3Xd5zOEY066CnzyQ7p0_/Zen%20crossword-a.jpg?psid=1

Point (geometry)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In geometry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometry), topology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology), and related branches of mathematics, a spatial point is a primitive notion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_notion) upon which other concepts may be defined. In geometry, points are zero-dimensional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-dimensional_space); i.e., they do not have volume (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume), area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area), length (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Length), or any other higher-dimensional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension) analogue. In branches of mathematics dealing with set theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory), an element (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Element_(mathematics)) is sometimes referred to as a point.

This might give you an inkling as to why Bill Ryan has a "point/dot" for his chosen location under his avatar....

[WHOMADEGOD]

"I often wonder if i had not fragmented my awareness into an infinite puzzle, would I have survived the loneliness and madness better than the loneliness and madness I now feel"

Perceived Reality can never be either real, or unreal, it must be both at once or everything will cease to exist.

We are cursed to search for the truth to hide from the truth. So we may as well make it interesting!

[another bob]

We are cursed to search for the truth to hide from the truth. So we may as well make it interesting!


"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."

~Sir Winston Churchill

[geofffxdwg]

Tony I like your way with words.This thread helps me to see things in several different lights and possibilities.Much like I felt the first time I saw some of Bill and Kerry's earlier interviews.Regardless of weather or not the content was true, it helped me to have a more open mind about anything.Its very difficult to come up with a conclusion on any subject given the less than if not completely inaccurate data out there to base a conclusion on.I am no different than the next person.I have to try and get a rough overview based on my research and go from there.What I am saying is that I have never come to a 100% conclusion on anything in this life time.But I have become content based on research I have done to get an overview I am content with.Thank you again Tony.

[geofffxdwg]

"
Five D visual range. > infinity <

Above this there are no words or labels > only pointing at a knowing > no ones been able to verbalize. In 3D " Will infinity goes in both directions so in Five D any direction is ugly.I think when we verbalize to each other it hinders us the most.It is like using mores code to tell a dog to stop barking.Most accounts of abduction witnesses never hear verbalization throughout their whole experience.There might be an important reason for this.Never mind my dry humor its been a personal issue I am constantly working on to better myself and the way I treat others.I say that with all due respect.........Geoff.

[gooty64]

FWIW, here IS a real life pleiadian! This is part 1 of an 18 "movie" series created by Alaje from the Plieades beginning in 2008. Enjoy

XtgmjjZdeak

[DeDukshyn]

FWIW, here IS a real life pleiadian! This is part 1 of an 18 "movie" series created by Alaje from the Plieades beginning in 2008. Enjoy

XtgmjjZdeak

I thought that was going to be cheesy ---- despite the "Arnold no-last-name-needed with a slight nut squeeze" narrator, it was quite a good and accurate message. Although it won't count as "proof" to most. ;)

[Tarka the Duck]

Although it won't count as "proof" to most. ;)

I'd have to disagree with you there DeDukshyn...for many, that video will be sufficient proof that Pleiadians definitely don't exist ;)

[Tony]

If you listen carefully to this video, it is full of 'Barnum' statements, the same type of 'Barnum' statements politicians use, to whoop people up into a tearful joyous frenzy of hope, but also creating fear at the same time. Don't forget the soft music lulling you to sleep!

Nothing is mentioned that you do not already know, they persuade you that you have heard this for the first time... so sending you back to sleep.

A certain whistle blower who smokes a fat cigar, claims the Pleaidians gave him a 'silver certificate'.
Now that was a useful piece of information, wasn't it!

If there are Pleaidians who are superior to us human, could you please explain exactly what humans have to do? What are you doing?

My belief is that certain humans have persuaded themselves through propaganda, that 'they' are Pleaidians, Starseeds, Indigos etc, and that they have powers to change everything.

I repeat, “What are you doing?”





Yours just ordinary,
Tony

[greybeard]

In general
there are a lot of teaching-- teachers saying "Claim your power" "Your authentic self/power"

Every genuine teacher says "I am nothing-- I point to the truth within you and all others" " No one is special, except all are equal without exception"
The genuine teacher promotes humility-- when the Supreme Self is acknowledged who needs personal power-- is there such a thing as the individual?
Oneness is promoted without the realisation of the meaning of this----- One without a second.

One could say New age style teachings are the spiritual merry go round-- just a distraction from finding the Ultimate Truth-- the answer to the question What am I?
People want to fix the world when they dont even know what they are.
Spirit having a human experience.

Chris

[greybeard]

Like a lot of people I have spent a lot of time examining my personality my actions my defects in order for self improvement to happen.
Going on courses, getting various diplomas, learning to be a therapist, learning about the mind.
Yes it was very worthwhile and helps me through the day.
However it revealed the ego and the persona not the true immortal Self.
On exiting this world the ego and persona are left behind-- the True Self remains.
If I have done enough to uncover the Tue Self I dont need to reincarnate-- if I haven’t back I come to Earth University for more hard lessons till I finally get what is important. Freedom from the ignorance which says I am an individual person rather than One with all that is.
I honour and respect the persona this life and all I meet but I am aware that that is not what I am.
I endeavour to have compassion kindness and love for the seeming other and this self/container.
What I do to/for another I do to myself. All true teachings say that and Thy will be done not mine.

The last remaining prayer for me is.
Beloved Lord please show me how I may serve You.

Chris

Chris

[Cristian]

My belief is that certain humans have persuaded themselves through propaganda, that 'they' are Pleaidians, Starseeds, Indigos etc, and that they have powers to change everything.



How did you end up with that belief Tony? If you accept there is a cycle of reincarnation on Earth...is it such a big leap in imagination to accept the posibility that beings from other planets can chose to be born here?
Just because some things are not spoken of in ancient (buddhist) texts...that means we cannot improvise a bit?
Why say no to a big galactic/Universal wheel of reincarnation?

Is bad enough that i found out that A LOT of roads lead to buddhist teachings :noidea: . I mean i didnt expect that when i first started looking around for the truth.
But there is no way you guys are taking from me my Star Trek fantasies and turn everything into this boring letting go of ego existence. :rant:

[Tony]

My belief is that certain humans have persuaded themselves through propaganda, that 'they' are Pleaidians, Starseeds, Indigos etc, and that they have powers to change everything.



How did you end up with that belief Tony? If you accept there is a cycle of reincarnation on Earth...is it such a big leap in imagination to accept the posibility that beings from other planets can chose to be born here?
Just because some things are not spoken of in ancient (buddhist) texts...that means we cannot improvise a bit?
Why say no to a big galactic/Universal wheel of reincarnation?

Is bad enough that i found out that A LOT of roads lead to buddhist teachings :noidea: . I mean i didnt expect that when i first started looking around for the truth.
But there is no way you guys are taking from me my Star Trek fantasies and turn everything into this boring letting go of ego existence. :rant:



Dear Chris,

Yes, it is all a leap of imagination!

As we have had infinite incarnations, we have been Pleaidians, monkeys, swamp monsters on AphlaSantori, I have even been your Mum and you were my kittten!

Asking to about truth can take us down some very strange roads, it's just a matter of finding 'something' that seems to tie it all together....makes sense!

And we can start from anywhere.- Mr. Spock seems to hints a thing or two...he does smile occasionally!


Personally I like a good cowboy film, the hero does no bend!



If the Pleaidians are reading this, "Any chance of a Pow Wow?"
Tony

[Fred Steeves]

If the Pleaidians are reading this, "Any chance of a Pow Wow?"
Tony

We'll think about it Tony. http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/spy.gif

[Tony]

Like a lot of people I have spent a lot of time examining my personality my actions my defects in order for self improvement to happen.
Going on courses, getting various diplomas, learning to be a therapist, learning about the mind.
Yes it was very worthwhile and helps me through the day.
However it revealed the ego and the persona not the true immortal Self.
On exiting this world the ego and persona are left behind-- the True Self remains.
If I have done enough to uncover the Tue Self I dont need to reincarnate-- if I haven’t back I come to Earth University for more hard lessons till I finally get what is important. Freedom from the ignorance which says I am an individual person rather than One with all that is.
I honour and respect the persona this life and all I meet but I am aware that that is not what I am.
I endeavour to have compassion kindness and love for the seeming other and this self/container.
What I do to/for another I do to myself. All true teachings say that and Thy will be done not mine.

The last remaining prayer for me is.
Beloved Lord please show me how I may serve You.

Chris

Chris







Dear Chris,

It's interesting you should mention beloved Lord.
The mantra OM MANI PEME HUM is a supplication to the Lord of Compassion.
Now that Lord can be any image we wish, it's still Compassion!

Om mani peme hum is actually the mantra of Chenrezi(g). The reason I mention this is that at death, and during the after death process, and just before taking a new incarnation, if one does not have a specific practice of any method, one can call on the 'Lord of Compassion'.

The point is, as we are driven by our karma we will not be sure of our next incarnation, unless we recognise all the stages of what is called the gaps between death and birth (Bardo). So, calling on the Lord of Compassion and seeing everything as 'Unconditional Love' and all potential couples in union as deities, then this pure intention will help for a positive incarnation.



Tony

[Tony]

Like a lot of people I have spent a lot of time examining my personality my actions my defects in order for self improvement to happen.
Going on courses, getting various diplomas, learning to be a therapist, learning about the mind.
Yes it was very worthwhile and helps me through the day.
However it revealed the ego and the persona not the true immortal Self.
On exiting this world the ego and persona are left behind-- the True Self remains.
If I have done enough to uncover the Tue Self I dont need to reincarnate-- if I haven’t back I come to Earth University for more hard lessons till I finally get what is important. Freedom from the ignorance which says I am an individual person rather than One with all that is.
I honour and respect the persona this life and all I meet but I am aware that that is not what I am.
I endeavour to have compassion kindness and love for the seeming other and this self/container.
What I do to/for another I do to myself. All true teachings say that and Thy will be done not mine.

The last remaining prayer for me is.
Beloved Lord please show me how I may serve You.

Chris

Chris







Dear Chris,

It's interesting you should mention beloved Lord.
The mantra OM MANI PEME HUM is a supplication to the Lord of Compassion.
Now that Lord can be any image we wish, it's still Compassion!

Om mani peme hum is actually the mantra of Chenrezi(g). The reason I mention this is that at death, and during the after death process, and just before taking a new incarnation, if one does not have a specific practice of any method, one can call on the 'Lord of Compassion'.

The point is, as we are driven by our karma we will not be sure of our next incarnation, unless we recognise all the stages of what is called the gaps between death and birth (Bardo). So, calling on the Lord of Compassion and seeing everything as 'Unconditional Love' and all potential couples in union as deities, then this pure intention will help for a positive incarnation.



Tony





Dear Tony,
You seem to have written this on the wrong thread, this should be on the mantra thread....fool!


Tony


Dear Tony,
I was writing to my friend Chris, and the subject was applicable, but I shall now put it on the mantra thread.

Tony

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Tony, why do I have the feeling that you were one of the people in the 13th century who was insisting that the world was flat!

Do the Pleiadians really exist! Do we really exist?!?! Scientists keep breaking matter down into smaller and smaller increments, and so far what they are finding is smaller forms of energy and space. So then, why do we see trees and tables and each other?

Edgar Cayce said that as we evolve we will see more. It has been said that when early Greeks described the wine-colored sea, they weren't being poetical, but because of where consciousness was at that time, the color blue had yet to be perceived. We've all heard the story of how the ancient S. American indians couldn't see the ships of the conquistadors because the perception of something vertical (i.e. their tall masts) in the ocean was not in their consciousness. Also Deepak Chopra has talked about kittens raised in boxes that only had vertical lines in them and when they first came out how they couldn't see things that were horizontal.

Perhaps it is time for some of us to get out of our boxes - or not. Each in their own time.

People who can't hear the music think those that dance are crazy.

[Tony]

Tony, why do I have the feeling that you were one of the people in the 13th century who was insisting that the world was flat!

Do the Pleiadians really exist! Do we really exist?!?! Scientists keep breaking matter down into smaller and smaller increments, and so far what they are finding is smaller forms of energy and space. So then, why do we see trees and tables and each other?

Edgar Cayce said that as we evolve we will see more. It has been said that when early Greeks described the wine-colored sea, they weren't being poetical, but because of where consciousness was at that time, the color blue had yet to be perceived. We've all heard the story of how the ancient S. American indians couldn't see the ships of the conquistadors because the perception of something vertical (i.e. their tall masts) in the ocean was not in their consciousness. Also Deepak Chopra has talked about kittens raised in boxes that only had vertical lines in them and when they first came out how they couldn't see things that were horizontal.

Perhaps it is time for some of us to get out of our boxes - or not. Each in their own time.

People who can't hear the music think those that dance are crazy.




Did you read the opening post?!

[Tarka the Duck]

Dear BaBaRa

I can only assume by your post that you haven't read this thread: it's been a great discussion about the nature of reality. It's worth a browse ;)

Regards
Kathie

PS never did understand that idea of the Aztecs not seeing the ships...but that doesn't seem relevant here, and so would be for another thread.

[ljwheat]

Dear BaBaRa

I can only assume by your post that you haven't read this thread: it's been a great discussion about the nature of reality. It's worth a browse ;)

Regards
Kathie

PS never did understand that idea of the Aztecs not seeing the ships...but that doesn't seem relevant here, and so would be for another thread.

No she was on the money, with the indians not seeing the ships. Just as a cave man would walk right past a cigarette lighter, its simply not in there reality. I don’t see were she’s off thread at all. You just cant see were her reality is coming from.

[DeDukshyn]

Dear BaBaRa

I can only assume by your post that you haven't read this thread: it's been a great discussion about the nature of reality. It's worth a browse ;)

Regards
Kathie

PS never did understand that idea of the Aztecs not seeing the ships...but that doesn't seem relevant here, and so would be for another thread.

No she was on the money, with the indians not seeing the ships. Just as a cave man would walk right past a cigarette lighter, its simply not in there reality. I don’t see were she’s off thread at all. You just cant see were her reality is coming from.

I agree ljwheat,

Before my Toyota Previa was strong within my attention - never saw any, now that I have one, I see every single one that comes into my field of view. Are there more now? Of course not - they just weren't a part of my attention at all and thus were never perceived even if one drove right past me.

It is the exact same thing - this is partly how we create our own reality -- via our attention. It is not hocus pocus - the brain is a giant filter that filters out billions of pieces of information and lets a select few bits through based on attention. -- this side of it isn't even spiritual or ethereal -- it is almost physiological and is also how atheists and skeptics can participate in conscious creation without having to even believe in a soul or spirit. The spiritual part doesn't come into play until one realizes the connection to what your attention is on, is based on a feedback loop between mind and matter -- then it starts to get fancy ;)

[ljwheat]

Dear BaBaRa

I can only assume by your post that you haven't read this thread: it's been a great discussion about the nature of reality. It's worth a browse ;)

Regards
Kathie

PS never did understand that idea of the Aztecs not seeing the ships...but that doesn't seem relevant here, and so would be for another thread.

No she was on the money, with the indians not seeing the ships. Just as a cave man would walk right past a cigarette lighter, its simply not in there reality. I don’t see were she’s off thread at all. You just cant see were her reality is coming from.

I agree ljwheat,

Before my Toyota Previa was strong within my attention - never saw any, now that I have one, I see every single one that comes into me field of view. Are there more now? Of course not - they just weren't a part of my attention at all and thus were never perceived even if one drove right past me.

It is the exact same thing - this is partly how we create our own reality -- via our attention. It is not hocus pocus - the brain is a giant filter that filters out billions of pieces of information and lets a select few bits through based on attention. -- this side of it isn't even spiritual or ethereal -- it is almost physiological and is also how atheists and skeptics can participate in conscious creation without having to even believe in a soul or spirit. The spiritual part doesn't come into play until one realizes the connection of what your attention is on is based on a feedback loop between mind and matter -- then it starts to get fancy ;)

Wow ! well said I meant every word you spoke, thank you for those words of wisdom WoW! John xoxo

[Tony]

We seem to have different views on ultimate reality.

Relatively everything seems real, we pay value added tax to what we see, and create. But none if it lasts, it only has a seeming reality, everything we see returns to dust.....or gas!
A ship that we have never seen before, is given a 'name' ship. This 'ship' is created of parts that come together for a while and then return to dust..or gas! Things to the natives, only seem to be real, or a ghost. The magician can make you believe anything, therefore the magician has the control, not you.

We only take the control back when we realise that it is all an illusion....a beautiful illusion...which returns to dust....or gas!

Most of our minds is full of gas!

[HaveBlue]

Nobody can prove something does not exist. At best it can only be said that it is yet to be proven. Belief systems do exist and can contain anything.

If someone choses to believe in Pleiadians they exist for them.

[greybeard]

David Sereda-- whom I have a lot of respect for claims personal communication with Pleiadians and much more in this recent interviews see link
Me, I dont know.
Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=550471&viewfull=1#post550471

[Tarka the Duck]

No she was on the money, with the indians not seeing the ships. Just as a cave man would walk right past a cigarette lighter, its simply not in there reality. I don’t see were she’s off thread at all. You just cant see were her reality is coming from.

Thank you John - but I still see a difference in the type of reality being discussed.

Here we are talking about "inattention blindness" or "perceptual blindness". That is certainly one way in which we don't perceive the world around us as it is, and would be, in itself, a fascinating topic of discussion.

But that kind of "mistaken view" is not the "mistaken view" posited in the OP and discussed on this thread: with perceptual blindness, I'm pretty sure that there is no investigation of the relationship between relative and ultimate reality.

Kathie

[Tony]

Nobody can prove something does not exist. At best it can only be said that it is yet to be proven. Belief systems do exist and can contain anything.

If someone choses to believe in Pleiadians they exist for them.


The point of this thread, is not about whether we believe, or see, or have actually met beings in this universe, that are not from this planet. There must be beings other then what we experience of this planet, trotting around eating stuff that looks like potato chips, but isn't!

Any being in body, in any dimension, has an ultimate nature....just like us. So even if we see or meet a strange being from another place or dimension, what we are seeing is only a temporary covering with a name...just like us!

Haveblue, Pie'n'eal, pleiadians, is just a name given to a confused consciousness that believes that it's body and others are real permanent fixtures.

I am not Pie'n'eal, it's just a name I give myself. So what is myself? Well, it certainly is not this body, or this mind full of temporary ideas about itself!

My true nature and yours and any Pleaidain watching is, Pure Cognisance. The manifestation of this is pure Compassionate love, tolerance, generosity......intelligent open space!

That is the only real reality, because this pure cognisance and love can never die!


All the best,
Tony

[Tony]

Nobody can prove something does not exist. At best it can only be said that it is yet to be proven. Belief systems do exist and can contain anything.

If someone choses to believe in Pleiadians they exist for them.


The point of this thread, is not about whether we believe, or see, or have actually met beings in this universe, that are not from this planet. There must be beings other then what we experience of this planet, trotting around eating stuff that looks like potato chips, but isn't!

Any being in body, in any dimension, has an ultimate nature....just like us. So even if we see or meet a strange being from another place or dimension, what we are seeing is only a temporary covering with a name...just like us!

Haveblue, Pie'n'eal, pleiadians, is just a name given to a confused consciousness that believes that it's body and others are real permanent fixtures.

I am not Pie'n'eal, it's just a name I give myself. So what is myself? Well, it certainly is not this body, or this mind full of temporary ideas about itself!

My true nature and yours and any Pleaidain watching is, Pure Cognisance. The manifestation of this is pure Compassionate love, tolerance, generosity......intelligent open space!

That is the only real reality, because this pure cognisance and love can never die!


All the best,
Tony



PS. If someone wishes to 'believe' something, that belief is just an idea in the mind. We can be made to believe anything, in fact we are sometime willing participants in the illusion. The ego needs to hold onto something, and that is the very act of holding on creates our illusions our dream world.

There are those out there who think keeping us in a dream world is a good idea...........for them!

[ljwheat]

So it’s the diversity confusing perception that we are not, and ultimately there is only unrealized streaming energy, of witch only Is, neutral of definition and label’s. Vaster than the count of drops in all the oceans. ‘One.’

The kayos, come’s from diversity instead of blending, in neutrality - Is’ness.

So how dose Oil & Water fit in all this? Or am I still thinking in label’s ?


John xoxo

[marique3652]

David Sereda-- whom I have a lot of respect for claims personal communication with Pleiadians and much more in this recent interviews see link
Me, I dont know.
Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=550471&viewfull=1#post550471

Thanks for the great link!

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

PS. If someone wishes to 'believe' something, that belief is just an idea in the mind.

I still don't quite follow this reasoning. A belief is not merely an idea in the mind. You 'believe' that I, Star Mariner, exist, but that does not mean I am an illusion, some figment of your imagination.

I'm sure what you mean is that we, Earth, this universe, is not ultimate reality. We are merely projections of our true essence in this realm, for this place embodies change, growth, polarity and entropy, and we enrich the purity of that essence by extruding ourselves through it.

We are spiritual beings incarnate in physicality. Physicality is a reality nonetheless, however it is not our native form.

Add a slice of ever dependable Vulcan logic to the debate: 'Nothing unreal exists'... :)

[Tony]

So it’s the diversity confusing perception that we are not, and ultimately there is only unrealized streaming energy, of witch only Is, neutral of definition and label’s. Vaster than the count of drops in all the oceans. ‘One.’

The kayos, come’s from diversity instead of blending, in neutrality - Is’ness.

So how dose Oil & Water fit in all this? Or am I still thinking in label’s ?


John xoxo



Dear John,

What you are saying is very important. We clearly (All) see things differently, and that's ok. My feeling is that we all have an abstract feeling about ourselves and the universe. This is because of our backgrounds of different experiences.

To a certain degree we can agree, but there comes a point when our methods are different, and we cannot sew with a two headed needle! Even in Buddhism it's the same, we all agree to a certain point and then find subtle differences. So we smile and nod to each other, but do not speak!

My guess is that, we all are climbing a mountain, and we find our own method of doing so. At times we can help one another, at times we have to leave others to do their own thing. If we are seen to be skilful in climbing our method may inspire others, until they find their own way.

So in the journey there seems to be 'no' Oneness! However, once at the top, we may have the same view!!!!

Your travelling companion,
Tony

[Tony]

PS. If someone wishes to 'believe' something, that belief is just an idea in the mind.

I still don't quite follow this reasoning. A belief is not merely an idea in the mind. You 'believe' that I, Star Mariner, exist, but that does not mean I am an illusion, some figment of your imagination.

I'm sure what you mean is that we, Earth, this universe, is not ultimate reality. We are merely projections of our true essence in this realm, for this place embodies change, growth, polarity and entropy, and we enrich the purity of that essence by extruding ourselves through it.

We are spiritual beings incarnate in physicality. Physicality is a reality nonetheless, however it is not our native form.

Add a slice of ever dependable Vulcan logic to the debate: 'Nothing unreal exists'... :)




Dear Starmariner,

I get your drift and totally agree...with your second part!

However Starmariner, is a designated name for a beautiful being. This being's presence is pure awareness, but it identifies with its made up designation...Starmariner. One could call that a social "I". - one that mingles with others to communicate. But then there is a self-cherishing "I" that holds onto its beliefs about itself.

I do not believe that Starmariner exists at all, but I know there is a conscious being who really has an enlightened nature present....beyond imagination, dreams, beliefs, ideas and the mind. Words are so difficult, as we use them differently.

No thing is real........so nothing to get hung up about!



All the best,
Tony

[polly1022]

I've come to the conclusion that our existence and that of the multiverse is all a big video game. A holographic one. Knowing that all simultaneously exists and does not exist, that all is paradoxical, is helpful....yet I still can't shake this erroneous perception of time and my sedimentary entrapment in the current perception of the game, hence why I tend to play the game at times, to simply relieve the boredom that would overtake me if I did'nt. I wonder what would happen, if anything, if all of the people on the planet stopped playing at the same time ? Perhaps some hundredth monkey consciousness in evolution would occur...which of course would be the next level of the game.

I think some people in the thread are missing the point of the post. Without understanding that this is about the nature of existence of ALL, they agressively defend their encounters as "real". I've had many ETI encounters. They are no more real or unreal than I am. The game continues.

[Carmody]

snSGhAdFznk

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I do not believe that Starmariner exists at all, but I know there is a conscious being who really has an enlightened nature present....beyond imagination, dreams, beliefs, ideas and the mind. Words are so difficult, as we use them differently.


Thanks Tony. In fact what you just said there about words being difficult sums up and perfectly explains the contrast in opinion here: reality, what is real, what is truth.

That debate will go on.

But I cannot see this 'reality' as unreal or untrue. It's just another expression of the Creator, just as I, Star Mariner, is another expression of my higher ultimate self, which in turn is a splinter of the Creator, as we all are: just a (temporarily) individualized spark of the Creation. We are all but flames of the same fire.

That I am here, now, in this identity, this social-memory-mind complex that we call an incarnation, does not make me an illusion, or an unreality. I am just a shard of it, one facet of the greater, hidden whole.

[DeDukshyn]

No she was on the money, with the indians not seeing the ships. Just as a cave man would walk right past a cigarette lighter, its simply not in there reality. I don’t see were she’s off thread at all. You just cant see were her reality is coming from.

Thank you John - but I still see a difference in the type of reality being discussed.

Here we are talking about "inattention blindness" or "perceptual blindness". That is certainly one way in which we don't perceive the world around us as it is, and would be, in itself, a fascinating topic of discussion.

But that kind of "mistaken view" is not the "mistaken view" posited in the OP and discussed on this thread: with perceptual blindness, I'm pretty sure that there is no investigation of the relationship between relative and ultimate reality.

Kathie

This "mistaken view" is primary creator of everyone's reality -- this process is very persistent and cannot really be measured - the example I gave is the very simplest form of the power that this process has in creating reality - no one knows that which is not available to them due to where their attention is. Keep in mind the spiritual aspect of this -- the feedback loop where what you experience drives that which is in your attention, and that which is in your attention drives your response to those experiences - this feedback loop is process in which individual realities are created and maintained.

In this case the absence of evidence never is evidence of absence.

My 2 cents ;)

[Tony]

I do not believe that Starmariner exists at all, but I know there is a conscious being who really has an enlightened nature present....beyond imagination, dreams, beliefs, ideas and the mind. Words are so difficult, as we use them differently.


Thanks Tony. In fact what you just said there about words being difficult sums up and perfectly explains the contrast in opinion here: reality, what is real, what is truth.

That debate will go on.

But I cannot see this 'reality' as unreal or untrue. It's just another expression of the Creator, just as I, Star Mariner, is another expression of my higher ultimate self, which in turn is a splinter of the Creator, as we all are: just a (temporarily) individualized spark of the Creation. We are all but flames of the same fire.

That I am here, now, in this identity, this social-memory-mind complex that we call an incarnation, does not make me an illusion, or an unreality. I am just a shard of it, one facet of the greater, hidden whole.





Hello Starmariner,

I see your point. It will all depend on whether one believes in The Creator or a creator (meaning we create our worlds). The Creation being an extension of the Creator, is one way of looking at thing, so everything would seem real and purposeful. In a way I cannot disagree, at one level! It's to do with how we translated the words....

"I and my father are One." May be looked at as, I am a spark of the Creator, or, I am a spark of my higher self, or, I am God Consciousness, or I am Pure Awareness, and that spark can either be of benefit to others or that spark creates a world of selfishness.


I wrote this to John earlier:

What you are saying is very important. We clearly (All) see things differently, and that's ok. My feeling is that we all have an abstract feeling about ourselves and the universe. This is because of our backgrounds of different experiences.

To a certain degree we can agree, but there comes a point when our methods are different, and we cannot sew with a two headed needle! Even in Buddhism it's the same, we all agree to a certain point and then find subtle differences. So we smile and nod to each other, but do not speak!

My guess is that, we all are climbing a mountain, and we find our own method of doing so. At times we can help one another, at times we have to leave others to do their own thing. If we are seen to be skilful in climbing our method may inspire others, until they find their own way.

So in the journey there seems to be 'no' Oneness! However, once at the top, we may have the same view!!!!



Your climbing companion,

Tony

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Cheers Tony! I agree with that interpretation. I've always resonated with the climbing analogy. But I will add my only own little addendum to the end part:


So in the journey there seems to be 'no' Oneness! However, once at the top, we may have the same view!!!! Once at that top the polarity that was will be transformed into unity, for we shall have merged together. We shall stand together - in the same place, on the same peak, from which we all once separated and fell into the lower darkness. We are all climbing back up to that pinnacle Light-Source, via an infinite combination of routes, paths, ledges and footholds, and with perfection in intelligence and wisdom accumulated along the way. At the top we will see the same view indeed, and it will be All That Is.

[OnyxKnight]

What a load of nonsense. You think your OP debunked every single claim of that nature out there? I guess "we" are not the only ones living in a sea of illusions ...

[Tony]

What a load of nonsense. You think your OP debunked every single claim of that nature out there? I guess "we" are not the only ones living in a sea of illusions ...

Dear OnyxKnight,

Could you elaborate a little more?



Tony

[Tony]

This thread is about the Absolute reality of Extra-terrestrials, not about whether they exist in a relative reality. It's the same question in relation to our true 'selves' and the ideas and names we give to a mental image and body we call ourselves, and think it is real. Perhaps that is not clear, or perhaps people have not understood what was meant, but it has made a few people angry, so let's look at that anger.

To repeat, reality or something truly existing, has to be constant...it never not exists! A temporary appearance, is a temporary phenomena, is a seeming reality. One might well say, “Well, it's true for me!” If you are satisfied with that answer, that is your choice, it does not make it true for everyone.

Here it is being examined that things do not truly exist, they are only of a temporary nature. Nothing truly exists. However there are two constance, which are not things - Space and Pure Essence.

If I wrote about this on a separate thread it would be over looked, so it's good to write about it while it is happening here! I apologise for taking this thread in a slightly different direction...for a while.

Actually it is related, because creating a belief about something that doesn't exist in reality, can make one angry, if others do not see it the same way or have the same belief.
That is exactly what causes strife and aggression!

If we have a fixated view about phenomena and ourselves – believing them to be real, and have invested a lot of time and effort into this belief, it is bound to make us defensive.

We get angry because we find that the world is not what we want or how we see things. If we were truly confident with the way we saw things, no-thing would upset us. Unfortunately anger or aggression only hurts our clinging ego-consciousness.

This dislike is in fact hatred. Hatred has taken control, this is exactly what attracts more negativity.
There are “demons” who feed off this negativity. It is created by our own 'likes' and 'dislikes'.

This is how we create and maintain our world, believing it to be real.

To repeat, the illusion is real, it is a real illusion! The illusion is a tool, as it's illusory nature is it's Absolute nature!

I know that sounds a bit zen, but on closer inspection one will realise this reality. Here we are talking about two truths - Ultimate reality and seeming reality, one reflects the other. Anything that appears in the mind, or through the senses, is only a conceptual idea. It is a mental image.

Reality is precisely that which is aware ….of these images, not the images themselves. We are in a physical body, living a relative existence, living the dream. We can use this relative existence to find our ultimate nature.


If we see things, as us and them, we live in a duality. If I just looked at the anger of a person, I would not be seeing reality. But I know that, that very anger, is an inner conflict between the person's true nature and the beliefs they hold. Therefore this very anger can illuminate our true nature, if we are watching. The wisdom is in just letting go...of everything, even the watching.

What is left is Pure Perception = Absolute reality.



A good heart, is an easy path.
Tony

[Finefeather]

What a load of nonsense. You think your OP debunked every single claim of that nature out there? I guess "we" are not the only ones living in a sea of illusions ...

Dear OnyxKnight,

Could you elaborate a little more?



Tony
Tony,
I guess, sometimes it just takes a while for some to understand,
after all you are dealing with someone who claims to have literally gone round the block a few times with the neighbors of the Pleiadians.
Regards
Ray

[music]

Hmm, semantics. Not very useful.

[Anastasia]

Dear Pi'ne'al:

Thank you so much for your thread.

I have not read all of the input into this subject...I have not studied all of the responses, but I have clicked into your ideas-thoughts. I agree. And, it is such a relief for me to "hear"...what I read.

The journey I am on is to experience that I AM...the me, and ultimately, to realize myself as the creator of my reality. I am currently reading the writings of Joel Goldsmith...I am also listening to the recordings of his talks which took place in the 1940's and 1950's...

In one of his talks, he was asked if he believed in extra-terrestrials (1958!). He responded, that he'd never, personally met an extra-terrestrial, and that he could speak from his own experiences, only. He did state that whatever created all that we see must have created more than we currently see here on earth! He left the answer open.I found it interesting that the question was asked. I found it more interesting that the question never made him blink an eyes. He was smooth as honey with his immediate delivery in 1958...controversial subject, for that time, don't you think?

He speaks as you do, of consciousness as the ultimate creator of the individual's reality.

He speaks of accessing a space at the center of one's own individual being where, all that exists is the individual's divine spark.

Since the experience of moving into a state of consciousness is possibly beyond words, the relaying of such expeiences in terms of the linear/logical mind can be difficult to convey. The beauty is that we continue to do so...we do communicate, we long to share our reality with "the other"...

I long to share my inner experiences with others. I suppose that is why I am Here!

I am always learning. These times we live in are amazing in so many ways. My goal is ultimately, to heal the 'fear', to have no fear, to be courageous, to be helpful, to love self and others.

I am open to whateve may be presented. I am a student.

Thank you,

Sincerely,

Anastasia

[Tony]

Hello Anastasia,
Each of us is on a journey of discovery, but instead of going forwards we are returning! It's an uncovering. At certain times we are satisfied with what we have found, but then a doubt arise, and we recognise there is a little further to go. The funny thing is, we get 'an' answer, but find it not totally satisfying, and we sort of say "Hmm, no not this!" So there is 'something' we know, but it has not revealed itself yet!

Of course there all sort of beings in the universe, but they too have the same dilemma as us, that this 'body' and 'mind' is not them.

Hope and fear are two sides of the same coin - I want, I don't want. Because we identify with an "I", this "I" wants things a certain way, and doesn't want things a certain way, and so we suffer. I want the world to be perfectly happy - this is unreasonable! It's like herding cats onto a nice fluffy blanket!!!! It's not going to happen all at once, it will happen in everyone's good time, when they have let go of every drop of "I".

When there is no "I" just pure 'being' there can be no hope or fear, as we will be..... .. just be! In that openness love can be expressed.




Yours, still scampering with the other cats,
Tony

[Tony]

Hope and Fear are not permanent states, they come and go.
When Hope and fear subside, natural being is just there, all we have to do is recognise it.
I sometime wonder if these moments are blessings from enlightened beings!



Tony

[Tony]

Our heart is naturally soft and open. Do you want to see it?


A true story:

An eight year old girl had a blood disease and needed a blood transfusion. The only available donor was her six year old brother. The parents asked the boy, if he would do it. The boy said, he'd have to think about it. After a couple of days he said, “Yes!”

When the brother and sister were connected and the process begun, the six year old boy called the doctor and whispered, “How long will it take me to die?”


When our heart is naturally soft and open, there is no fear. Isn't it nice to feel it?

[greybeard]

Our heart is naturally soft and open. Do you want to see it?


A true story:

An eight year old girl had a blood disease and needed a blood transfusion. The only available donor was her six year old brother. The parents asked the boy, if he would do it. The boy said, he'd have to think about it. After a couple of days he said, “Yes!”

When the brother and sister were connected and the process begun, the six year old boy called the doctor and whispered, “How long will it take me to die?”


When our heart is naturally soft and open, there is no fear. Isn't it nice to feel it?

A beautiful true story Tony
Many thanks
Chris

[Anastasia]

Dear pi'n'eal:

That is the only peace. I felt it as you 'spoke'.

A leaf falling from a tree...? chuckle!

I know that cats cannot be corralled! I have four little ones right here in my midst!

Sincerely,

anastasia

[Tony]

We are all aliens.

Aliens are sentient (having mind) just like us. They think, they feel, they have empathy or a lack of empathy...just like us, more or less.

The word Alien is a misnomer as it is a relative term indicating someone foreign. The point is we are ALL aliens. On a relative level an alien is someone who looks different from us, remembering we look different to them!

If reincarnation is true, then we have all been Reptilians, Nordics, Pleaidians, Atlanteans, 'green monkeys' and part of the 'elite'. What we are describing are different bodies and different attitudes, which are all temporary realities...we all come and go...we all come to pass.

Some beings hold on tightly to their physical temporary reality, while others see through this illusory reality, just like us.

I am an alien to my neighbour, my neighbour is an alien to me. All of you are aliens, goodness knows where you last came from!

The point is, you are here now. Wherever you are is the result of your causes. Thinking or speculating about the past or future or what's over there is of no help whatsoever.
The funny thing is -you are here....and cannot be found!

It is the same for all sentient beings. When we strip away all those alien covering, those temporary covering, there is no thing there, but the quality of pure knowing love.

It's been there all the time...just covered up with appearances!:ufo:





However we all can influenced by our dark side (lack of love) as well as our light side (love).





Tony

[Tony]

Ordinary Tibetans before 1940ish saw all foreigners as devils, and would poke their tongues out at them ...I don't blame them!


NB.A 9th century Tibetan king, Lang Darma, known for his cruelty, had a black tongue. As Buddhists, Tibetans believe in reincarnation, and they feared that this mean king would be reincarnated. Consequently, for centuries Tibetans have greeted one another by sticking out their tongues demonstrating that they do not have black tongues, that they are not guilty of evil deeds, that they are not incarnations of the malevolent king.

Another:

This custom reportedly derives from a belief that demons have black tongues, and sometimes that is all that differentiates them visually from humans. A demon won’t stick out its tongue in greeting because you’ll see the color and know it for what it is.

It seems it still happens.....
ND96ZCTP1lo

[ljwheat]

We are all aliens.

Aliens are sentient (having mind) just like us. They think, they feel, they have empathy or a lack of empathy...just like us, more or less.

The word Alien is a misnomer as it is a relative term indicating someone foreign. The point is we are ALL aliens. On a relative level an alien is someone who looks different from us, remembering we look different to them!

If reincarnation is true, then we have all been Reptilians, Nordics, Pleaidians, Atlanteans, 'green monkeys' and part of the 'elite'. What we are describing are different bodies and different attitudes, which are all temporary realities...we all come and go...we all come to pass.

Some beings hold on tightly to their physical temporary reality, while others see through this illusory reality, just like us.

I am an alien to my neighbour, my neighbour is an alien to me. All of you are aliens, goodness knows where you last came from!

The point is, you are here now. Wherever you are is the result of your causes. Thinking or speculating about the past or future or what's over there is of no help whatsoever.
The funny thing is -you are here....and cannot be found!

It is the same for all sentient beings. When we strip away all those alien covering, those temporary covering, there is no thing there, but the quality of pure knowing love.

It's been there all the time...just covered up with appearances!:ufo:





However we all can influenced by our dark side (lack of love) as well as our light side (love).





Tony

Travel back, travel back to the womb, just before you took your first breath, and opened your eye’s on this world.

Spirit entered this body, spirit (a dense Orb of pure energy) traveled herefrom beyond the stars. From beyond the 3d dimension. From beyond even the 11th dimension traveled here to become a reprehensive of the higher self.

Like the main bank, and we are just a branch or the main bank representing the main office outside and above the 11th heaven(demension).

This Orb of spiritual energy is now rapped in a physical blanket soon to be diapered for waste management.

Even though it had implication on the same line of thought in the Garden of Eden -- the statement ‘who told you that you were necked’? meaning two things, physicaly and mentally came the question.

Back to opening your eye’s for the first time this Orb of spirit that we are, with or with out the body, is pure, spirit totally complete it’s a branch of the main spirit above all this. Its first set of cloths -- a physical body. In a matter of just hours mental cloths started showing up, your name was the first label to be mentally engrained into you, naming a perfect pure, complete spirit incased in a body now tattooed with a label.

Then comes the labels and definitions of the physical word around you. Cat, dog, run, stop, pretty much what we need to communicate.

In a couple years school begins with all the disinformation mental cloths for the mental republic your expected to ware the proper mental cloths to get along in a mental world, leaving or covering that prefect Orb of spirit. All this mental cloths so we don’t embarrass the person (alian) we are standing next to you.

‘Who told you that you were necked’? >This physicality did< and everything in it.

All the mental cloths, programs, labels, agenda’s of beliefs not real, none the less more cloths your mental baggage gaining weight every time you turn around on this planet.

This perfect Orb of spiritual energy came into this world needing nothing but nurturing, is instead clothed physically and mentally with disinformation on a grand scale, all to do one thing. to keep you from spiritually staying alive and in tune with your spirit and that Orb conversing with the main bank or office outside of all these bubbles of deception.(higher self)

We are ambassador’s from beyond the 11th heaven (dimension) all the crap (cloths) were getting is from the 3D and 4D programmers of control and containment.

So everything outside of you and the perfect, complete, energy of this Orb (representative of higher self ) above all this. is now carrieing all this weight.

Doping the programs, agenda’s, labels, and beliefs we have put on hiding the Orb of spiritual completeness is the blindness holding us down. Shed those cloths, get necked, in mental, wisdom.

Remember the tree of knowledge, ’do not eat of this tree for surly you will die -- spiritually -- but eat of the tree of life -- the higher self main office Orb of life we all carry inside of us.

We are complete; everything else outside of this completeness; is disinformation and the cloths that keeps us blind and dumbed down.

We didn’t have a chance from the START with all the ‘put this on’ and ‘you have to wear this’ and ‘the more you put on, the better off you’ll be in life’ all, ALL, set in place to keep you well clothed, and blind to spirit.

Representative of life the energy Orb of spirit; we all came into this world with.

Its still there Neutral -- hole and will it never changes,---- the cloths do. -- were all wearing mental cloths, and our boots are stuck in mental beliefs, our hands in glove’s of self defense, when some one tries to decode us. Or help us get undressed mentally.

We are so used to being dress in the finest cloths money can by; "Oh we look good" when we strut around mentally dressed in all that "garbage."

r6tlw-oPDBM

And just like this last t-shirt says, I feel like NOBODY wearing all this CRAP.:doh:

John xoxo

[Kiforall]

The Egyptians in Australia gives a good argument about alien beliefs.

Glad to be meeting everyone,
Love to all,
Zoe

[Jules]

Ordinary Tibetans before 1940ish saw all foreigners as devils, and would poke their tongues out at them ...I don't blame them!


NB.A 9th century Tibetan king, Lang Darma, known for his cruelty, had a black tongue. As Buddhists, Tibetans believe in reincarnation, and they feared that this mean king would be reincarnated. Consequently, for centuries Tibetans have greeted one another by sticking out their tongues demonstrating that they do not have black tongues, that they are not guilty of evil deeds, that they are not incarnations of the malevolent king.

Another:

This custom reportedly derives from a belief that demons have black tongues, and sometimes that is all that differentiates them visually from humans. A demon won’t stick out its tongue in greeting because you’ll see the color and know it for what it is.

It seems it still happens.....
ND96ZCTP1lo

Sometimes it is nice to find a good excuse to stick your tongue at someone in fun. If someone gets annoyed at me for doing it, I'll tell this story, and hopefully we'll laugh.

[Tony]

We are all aliens.

Aliens are sentient (having mind) just like us. They think, they feel, they have empathy or a lack of empathy...just like us, more or less.

The word Alien is a misnomer as it is a relative term indicating someone foreign. The point is we are ALL aliens. On a relative level an alien is someone who looks different from us, remembering we look different to them!

If reincarnation is true, then we have all been Reptilians, Nordics, Pleaidians, Atlanteans, 'green monkeys' and part of the 'elite'. What we are describing are different bodies and different attitudes, which are all temporary realities...we all come and go...we all come to pass.

Some beings hold on tightly to their physical temporary reality, while others see through this illusory reality, just like us.

I am an alien to my neighbour, my neighbour is an alien to me. All of you are aliens, goodness knows where you last came from!

The point is, you are here now. Wherever you are is the result of your causes. Thinking or speculating about the past or future or what's over there is of no help whatsoever.
The funny thing is -you are here....and cannot be found!

It is the same for all sentient beings. When we strip away all those alien covering, those temporary covering, there is no thing there, but the quality of pure knowing love.

It's been there all the time...just covered up with appearances!:ufo:





However we all can influenced by our dark side (lack of love) as well as our light side (love).





Tony







If we spend our time looking for aliens, when we are here now, is a total waste of a precious life.
At death all (all) sentient beings are driven by their hurricane of karma, and can go anywhere.
In that state they are no longer human, something from the planet Zog, or a slug...so we are all what you call aliens! Confused aliens!

Some are every fortunate to be born as humans. Those that choose to be born human will leave an indication before death where they will be found. In Tibetan they are called Tulkus. Though there is much debate about this subject, the Tulkus I have met certainly do something good for humanity, without making claims about themselves.


The purpose to human birth is to understand and recognise our true nature, not run around looking for phantoms, we have been doing that forever!
Absolute reality is looking at the essence of a being not the physical body. The physical body is only a temporary event.


There are those who twist our investigation of knowing our true existence, to divert and divide us.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

If we spend our time looking for aliens, when we are here now, is a total waste of a precious life.


I think seeking that which we do not understand - in searching for truth, is a very noble life, my friend.

I know for certain that 'life' is everywhere, in this Universe/Realm/Reality, and others. To try and understand 'it', to connect with that outside, 'alien' it, is no different than trying to understand or connect with any other life on earth. Because we are all connected.

And that is a beautiful thing.

[mahalall]

"The purpose to human birth is to understand and recognise our true nature, not run around looking for phantoms, we have been doing that forever!" pie' n' eal

Sankharupekka (pali=equanimity to ones conditioned karma) is essential to Bhanga (dissolution into light) expand out from ones light and the phantoms will talk.

Within the Sangha many hours were spent meditating in the company of a close good friend. Within this friend's past he had an experience that would be viewed as an alien abduction. He continues to be haunted both for good health and for ill. The event seems to have affected his perception. So much so that he regular sees ufo structures both in the sky and shooting out of the ground. One can only observe his emotional reactions, listen, empathy and not to judge. He has spoken to many to gain an understanding an assurances that his not alone. Whilst at Samye Ling, Tibetian centre in Scotland, one monk advised him to avoid the sausage shaped structures as they had bad intent?

For fifteen years i have been listening to this friends events so decided to step of the cushion and explore the region the event occurred. With five spare days i resided in the area. A beautiful part of England. Lots of old copper mines and charming rolling hills but no fluorescent close encounter. On the fifth day i had a light meal by a quiet lake and was resting when i looked up and saw a bright orb structure zoom across the sky and stop. The interesting thing is that it spoke and said, "you should not be able to see me" before flying off. Being at one with the structures presence one felt how ominous powerful it was. I was disappointed because fear arose but thankful for the understanding, that there can be a naive tendency to place faith in such entities being wholly compassionate.

[GloriousPoetry]

If all is consciousness in our universe then anything is possible in the human imagination even E.T. s. I have no desire to make direct contact with any of these realities that some humans have witnessed even though the subject of ufology is fascinating. However just because you can't prove something or bring it to the table doesn't mean that it doesn't hold substance. I have experienced some bizarre awakenings within my own being which I will never be able to prove to anyone but I know what I saw and experienced. I feel some of those awakenings were and continue to be interdimensional knowledge. The most important thing for me now is to understand my soul's purpose in this world and move forward with that wisdom.
At the end of the day all you really have is your soul.

[Tarka the Duck]

If all is consciousness in our universe then anything is possible in the human imagination even E.T. s. I have no desire to make direct contact with any of these realities that some humans have witnessed even though the subject of ufology is fascinating. However just because you can't prove something or bring it to the table doesn't mean that it doesn't hold substance. I have experienced some bizarre awakenings within my own being which I will never be able to prove to anyone but I know what I saw and experienced. I feel some of those awakenings were and continue to be interdimensional knowledge. The most important thing for me now is to understand my soul's purpose in this world and move forward with that wisdom.
At the end of the day all you really have is your soul.

Hello gloriouspoetry, and welcome to Avalon!

The OP was not really about the existence of ETs/EDs...fascinating as the subject may be, it is still part of the relative reality that we inhabit. Pie's point was that there is nothing - neither ETs nor humans nor pickled eggs nor diamonds - that absolutely exists.

Kathie

[Realeyes]

The OP was not really about the existence of ETs/EDs...fascinating as the subject may be, it is still part of the relative reality that we inhabit. Pie's point was that there is nothing - neither ETs nor humans nor pickled eggs nor diamonds - that absolutely exists. Kathie


If 'nothing' actually exists, I am trying to gather the 'point' of this thread then?............ (scratching head).............it makes it all rather 'pointless'?

If nothing actually exists ..... it is pointless to do anything (seeing as nothing exists) ........ it is even pointless to breathe........

IF the OP is the case....

Why do we keep arriving here in this halucination each new day? I am sure there are other parts of 'nothingness' we would prefer to explore?

Perhaps we are missing a very important 'point'?........... Perhaps thinking only of 'there being nothing in existance', we have missed the godly magic of a no-thing containing 'all-things' 'potentially yet non-materialised' waiting for us here in 3d to consciously wake up and dream it into life...........and bring Heaven upon Earth!

[Tony]

The OP was not really about the existence of ETs/EDs...fascinating as the subject may be, it is still part of the relative reality that we inhabit. Pie's point was that there is nothing - neither ETs nor humans nor pickled eggs nor diamonds - that absolutely exists. Kathie


If 'nothing' actually exists, I am trying to gather the 'point' of this thread then?............ (scratching head).............it makes it all rather 'pointless'?

If nothing actually exists ..... it is pointless to do anything (seeing as nothing exists) ........ it is even pointless to breathe........

IF the OP is the case....

Why do we keep arriving here in this halucination each new day? I am sure there are other parts of 'nothingness' we would prefer to explore?

Perhaps we are missing a very important 'point'?........... Perhaps thinking only of 'there being nothing in existance', we have missed the godly magic of a no-thing containing 'all-things' 'potentially yet non-materialised' waiting for us here in 3d to consciously wake up and dream it into life...........and bring Heaven upon Earth!








Well, there does seem to be some confusion and misunderstanding doesn't there!;)

[Tarka the Duck]

The OP was not really about the existence of ETs/EDs...fascinating as the subject may be, it is still part of the relative reality that we inhabit. Pie's point was that there is nothing - neither ETs nor humans nor pickled eggs nor diamonds - that absolutely exists. Kathie


If 'nothing' actually exists, I am trying to gather the 'point' of this thread then?............ (scratching head).............it makes it all rather 'pointless'?

If nothing actually exists ..... it is pointless to do anything (seeing as nothing exists) ........ it is even pointless to breathe........

IF the OP is the case....

Why do we keep arriving here in this halucination each new day? I am sure there are other parts of 'nothingness' we would prefer to explore?

Perhaps we are missing a very important 'point'?........... Perhaps thinking only of 'there being nothing in existance', we have missed the godly magic of a no-thing containing 'all-things' 'potentially yet non-materialised' waiting for us here in 3d to consciously wake up and dream it into life...........and bring Heaven upon Earth!

OK, to clarify, as it seems you perhaps haven't read the thread :o It's about the relationship between our relative reality and absolute reality: the fact that this reality is real (it appears to our perception) and as such deserves our respect and care, but is not true (it has no lasting, inherent existence).

Kathie

[danimyl]

While there's a great deal of valid thinking on the contrast between relative and absolute realities here, there are many errors to be made when confusing the two and the approaches they each require. In the absolute reality, relationship is inherent. It's startlingly obvious. In the relative reality of the world it's possible to persist in the perception that separation is the natural state of consciousness. Philosophizing highly on the illusion of the relative reality doesn't make it any less necessary to pass through it on the way to a greater capacity for relationship. Simply saying "I know you don't exist, world" fails to make the world vanish in a poof of enlightenment. Only dissolving the illusion of separation through relationship can do that. An idea alone can't accomplish it.

[Tarka the Duck]

Only dissolving the illusion of separation through relationship can do that

Hello danimyl
I would agree that confusion regarding the relationship of the two is at the root of the human condition.
Could you please explain more about what you mean by the above quotation?

Kathie

[gooty64]

Here is an avalon member pleiadian.

TUgB6ke438k

[Tony]

The OP was not really about the existence of ETs/EDs...fascinating as the subject may be, it is still part of the relative reality that we inhabit. Pie's point was that there is nothing - neither ETs nor humans nor pickled eggs nor diamonds - that absolutely exists. Kathie


If 'nothing' actually exists, I am trying to gather the 'point' of this thread then?............ (scratching head).............it makes it all rather 'pointless'?

If nothing actually exists ..... it is pointless to do anything (seeing as nothing exists) ........ it is even pointless to breathe........

IF the OP is the case....

Why do we keep arriving here in this halucination each new day? I am sure there are other parts of 'nothingness' we would prefer to explore?

Perhaps we are missing a very important 'point'?........... Perhaps thinking only of 'there being nothing in existance', we have missed the godly magic of a no-thing containing 'all-things' 'potentially yet non-materialised' waiting for us here in 3d to consciously wake up and dream it into life...........and bring Heaven upon Earth!




Dear Realeyes,

Sorry I didn't have time to chat yesterday. You bring up a very important point.
It all depend on what one calls real. Real as in everlasting...real all the time...for ever.
The Earth is not even everlasting, nor is the Sun.

So the question is: What is real?


Best wishes,
Tony

[Tony]

Here is an avalon member pleiadian.

TUgB6ke438k




There is a man on a sofa saying he is Pleiadian.

[Tony]

While there's a great deal of valid thinking on the contrast between relative and absolute realities here, there are many errors to be made when confusing the two and the approaches they each require. In the absolute reality, relationship is inherent. It's startlingly obvious. In the relative reality of the world it's possible to persist in the perception that separation is the natural state of consciousness. Philosophizing highly on the illusion of the relative reality doesn't make it any less necessary to pass through it on the way to a greater capacity for relationship. Simply saying "I know you don't exist, world" fails to make the world vanish in a poof of enlightenment. Only dissolving the illusion of separation through relationship can do that. An idea alone can't accomplish it.



This is to do with the unity of the two truths. One exists by virtue of the other. This thread is about believing something to be real when it is only a seeming reality. It doesn't dismiss the importance of respecting relative reality as this is where we are now. This is not philosophising at all, as many people are getting themselves into quite an hysterical state about aliens...

Seeing the illusion is reality.
Believing the illusion is delusion.


Tony

[danimyl]

Only dissolving the illusion of separation through relationship can do that

Hello danimyl
I would agree that confusion regarding the relationship of the two is at the root of the human condition.
Could you please explain more about what you mean by the above quotation?

Kathie

Yes, gladly. Sorry for the delay.

A definition that I accept for what God is: the sum of all relationships in Creation. The physical reality has been spun of from the absolute reality (which dwarfs the physical part of Creation) for the purpose of... well you could just read this post that I wrote yesterday (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?50521-Shocking-News-Adyashanti-says-Humanity-is-Going-Down-this-Rathole--&p=567677&viewfull=1#post567677) where I excerpted a couple paragraphs from a brilliant Teaching from the New Message called "What is Creation?"

The return to the absolute, the oneness, the union with the Divine - whatever you want to call the arrival point of "getting back to God" - must necessarily be a process of increasing your capacity for relationship if God is really the sum of all relationships, as I certainly feel it must be. How you can you reunite with the Divine in a sea of oneness if you can't experience the deepest reality of one other person even one time in life? Certainly this is the case for many people, even those who can really talk the talk and seemingly walk the walk of consciousness, spirit, etc. So all this talk you hear about spirituality and oneness and illusion is sort of missing the point if we can't recognize that it is relationship that really matters. Outside of that context all our talk about spirituality is rather academic, no matter how true. If you can't be with another person as they truly are in the present then how can you go back to God? God doesn't know us as miserable beings or even as beings full of brilliant ideas, or even as powerful points of consciousness that have shed the mind and/or ego. God knows us in a state of permanent and intrinsic relationship and the path back to that state is a long river of greater and greater relationships joining together to experience larger unions for purposeful action (when you're in the physical) for the assistance of every single being's choices to make that return trip. The physical reality is here to give you the option to do whatever you feel like doing to distract yourself until you decide you're tired of it and want to go back.

I recommend this Teaching (http://newmessage.org/nmfg/The_New_God.html) also for a simple definition of God and what God is doing in the world and in Creation.


This thread is about believing something to be real when it is only a seeming reality. It doesn't dismiss the importance of respecting relative reality as this is where we are now.

Ok yes, I get it, and I won't argue with the essential truth of this statement. What I'm saying above, quotes and excerpts all, doesn't conflict with that essential truth. But... well, where does it end? Where do you stop in the "it's all illusion" answer? Should I not bother eating tomorrow because I'll only "seemingly" die of starvation? I don't see this as a solution to anything. It's just more for my mind to chew on. I can embrace this idea all I want and try to do something with it but what is it really good for? What has been accomplished by chalking any or all of existence up to illusion or impermanence? It's still just an idea. My experience of either reality has not shifted just because I accept this.

[Tony]

The point of this thread is attachment - attachment to ideas and things that have only a seeming reality.

If we believe things to be real and solid, we will get attached to them and thereby create suffering for ourselves and others around us. People actually fight over nothing or hearsay! However because everything has no inherent reality and so in an illusion, does not mean we do not eat...nice things like tomatoes on toast, the body needs food.

If we constantly swing between the two extremes of thinking, everything is permanent and real, and everything is a total illusion we will never, ever, realise the truth.

We live in a physical body, so it has to be taken care of...washed, clothed and fed. All the things we use have to be cared for so we can function in life. Knowing that everything has no inherent reality, merely stops us clinging to them for dear life, and attacking others!

We live in a seemingly real world, that will not last forever. It is only because of our attached to our bodies and ideas that it all seems real. Our true nature is not of the body or our ideas!

However we can use the time here in this temporary existence, to realise our true nature...that is why we are here, not to keep on arguing!

The real nature of any thing, is its non real existence. This is called emptiness in some traditions, I prefer to use the word, pure. (You may wish to call it something else.) Within emptiness everything arises and dissolves. Things arise because of consciousness, which is a desire within a sentient beings mind. If enough beings have a similar consciousness, a group dream manifests...a group attachment!

Just look how people cling to their ideas and beliefs, about impermanent states.
If there is an illuminati they must be laughing all the way to the ...bank!



Tony

[greybeard]

We might have different paths Tony but the end result is the same.
Freedom from attachment--- belief systems-- concepts--ignorance.
You put it beautifully in your post.

Best wishes
Chris

[Chester]

We might have different paths Tony but the end result is the same.
Freedom from attachment--- belief systems-- concepts--ignorance.
You put it beautifully in your post.

Best wishes
Chris

Freedom from attachment - that is it. Three words - Bammo!

I cannot conceive of any greater personal goal. Though I would follow that accomplishment up with a decision to live in positive relationship with all... the universe.

Simple, sweet, three words. I will add, and I as well as others have mentioned it before on this thread... I crack myself up in uncontrollable fits of laughter when I read the OP and look at the OP's pic! I mean... no words needed here. You can't make this stuff up. Tony is the greatest! Man I wish I could get a hug from Tony... maybe one day. You know... like at an "Avalon Bash" - just, please, don't do it in Vegas... anywhere but Las Vegas PLEASE!

[Chester]

The OP was not really about the existence of ETs/EDs...fascinating as the subject may be, it is still part of the relative reality that we inhabit. Pie's point was that there is nothing - neither ETs nor humans nor pickled eggs nor diamonds - that absolutely exists. Kathie


If 'nothing' actually exists, I am trying to gather the 'point' of this thread then?............ (scratching head).............it makes it all rather 'pointless'?

If nothing actually exists ..... it is pointless to do anything (seeing as nothing exists) ........ it is even pointless to breathe........

IF the OP is the case....

Why do we keep arriving here in this halucination each new day? I am sure there are other parts of 'nothingness' we would prefer to explore?

Perhaps we are missing a very important 'point'?........... Perhaps thinking only of 'there being nothing in existance', we have missed the godly magic of a no-thing containing 'all-things' 'potentially yet non-materialised' waiting for us here in 3d to consciously wake up and dream it into life...........and bring Heaven upon Earth!




Dear Realeyes,

Sorry I didn't have time to chat yesterday. You bring up a very important point.
It all depend on what one calls real. Real as in everlasting...real all the time...for ever.
The Earth is not even everlasting, nor is the Sun.

So the question is: What is real?


Best wishes,
Tony

I have found the answer (and this is just my view, but a view I have settled in as of now) - the answer is

BOTH

My deep self... that which is the face behind the face and, the brick I just dropped on my big toe. Both are REAL. At some point, when my "spirit" leaves this container, I am sure I will no longer view my big toe as "real" anymore. But at this moment, it is real and so is that which lies behind or prior to my deepest self... that which I can only point to.

This type of "thinking" is now being called (by some of my friends) - paralogical thinking and I find it absolutely non dual as BOTH are true and the mystery in how that is may never be solved. In fact, at this time I have no desire to solve it as life is just too fun - even knowing I have just 6 to 9 months left to experience it in this body in the location I reside at this time, San Jose, Costa Rica.

As one of the wisest people I ever met has said to me over and over for years (though he is not the originator) -

"Dad, its all good." Stephen Hunter - age 21, my oldest son.

Love to ya son, Dad