Self vs Community

[Reaver]

This idea came up briefly in another thread and it may prove to be very useful to explore this topic in more depth.

Which one is more important? the individuality of a human being? or the well-being of a community?

What is a Self? how does it develop? how is it influenced?

What is a community? how is does it evolve? who decides what's best for the group?

I will try to throw in my thoughts when I can come up with something coherent.

[modwiz]

Which one is more important? the individuality of a human being? or the well-being of a community?

What is a community? how is does it evolve? who decides what's best for the group?

I will try to thrown in my thoughts when I can come up with something coherent.

That makes two of us. Good topic. It will reveal much about ourselves to us.

[ulli]

Great thread.
The spectrum is pretty large...
with anarchy at one end and a North Korea type collective at the other.
Neither of which are desirable. There has to be a middle way.

What makes a healthy society is a _system_ which allows sufficient freedom to its individuals for them to express their inherent talents while at the same time having a leadership that can manage and develop infrastructures that provide education, health, security, communication and transportation.

[write4change]

I know many people here are familiar with the Zeigeist movies. In them they talk about the cities of the future. They show big circular cities built concentrically in the middle of agricultural fields and oceans. Each city designed to house about 50,000 people in co operative living. A lot of young people are always thrilled by the idea. I cause them great consternation when I say if one of these cities were built and we were given it--it would fail because we do not have the experience of living cooperatively in almost anyway in the United States any more.

One of the crazy things about Texas is everybody believes the myth that somehow they are all cattle barons instead of the fact that 99% are really just settlers. The cattle barons worked bery hard to prevent fencing, homesteading, and water usage by anyone but them. The range wars of Texas were terrible and lasted about 50 years.

I spent 45 days and about 2500 dollars living as the oldest female resident in Occupy LA. I did that because I felt I had to know young people again and share the experience. Most of them claimed to be libertarians. Living with anarchists made me a fascist.

So let people start by telling short stories about their experience if any living communially.

[jagman]

I"ve Heard this concept some where before Reaver.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U0crhth_g9E

[write4change]

Jagman,

I know nothing about you. I would like to remove this topic from any tinge of inherent racism. Can we leave Obama out of this and focus on the initial questions that Reaver asked? The country is going to vote on this and we will get to see that play out.

Maybe we should focus on whether or not Avalon is a community or not. I am open to any suggestion. It is just that video made my hair stand up.

[modwiz]

I"ve Heard this concept some where before Reaver.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U0crhth_g9E

Who the hell let Obama in here. This is serious discussion, not send in the clowns. Jagman, you were the last person standing at the door. :tsk:

[jagman]

Jagman,

I know nothing about you. I would like to remove this topic from any tinge of inherent racism. Can we leave Obama out of this and focus on the initial questions that Reaver asked? The country is going to vote on this and we will get to see that play out.

Maybe we should focus on whether or not Avalon is a community or not. I am open to any suggestion. It is just that video made my hair stand up.

Sorry write4change,I Didnt mean to offend you but There was no racism involved in my comment nor in the video. It was simply Barack Obama explaining His belief.
"Collective Salvation". I wasnt trying to derail Reavers thread, But there is a correlation in Reavers Thread "Self VS Community" and Individual Salvation vs
Collective Salvation. See, Please dont think I wanted to Obama bash! I could Start
my own thread for that lol

[modwiz]

Jagman,

I know nothing about you. I would like to remove this topic from any tinge of inherent racism. Can we leave Obama out of this and focus on the initial questions that Reaver asked? The country is going to vote on this and we will get to see that play out.

Maybe we should focus on whether or not Avalon is a community or not. I am open to any suggestion. It is just that video made my hair stand up.

I didn't even give it the time of day. Politics is all lies of organized criminals. Jagman got lost and landed in the wrong thread. He tends to always turn right. :pound:

[Carmen]

Self first! To love Self first is important. Self acceptance, Self Love, Self responsibility. Without that we are wounded souls struggling to realize Self and projecting all the inner crap onto family, friends and community. Self sacrifice in favour of friends and community often hides a suppressed neediness that eventually leaks out!!

With Self love and Self authority governing our motivation and actions we are then able to be loving and effective community and family members. Self Love radiates and effects all others in our environment. We are then coming from wholeness and are not fragmented. We see a larger perspective.

[jagman]

Self first! To love Self first is important. Self acceptance, Self Love, Self responsibility. Without that we are wounded souls struggling to realize Self and projecting all the inner crap onto family, friends and community. Self sacrifice in favour of friends and community often hides a suppressed neediness that eventually leaks out!!

With Self love and Self authority governing our motivation and actions we are then able to be loving and effective community and family members. Self Love radiates and effects all others in our environment. We are then coming from wholeness and are not fragmented. We see a larger perspective.

Wow, This is absolutley one of the best comments I've read in a while!I give
4 and half stars.

[noprophet]

I believe when the self is content, the community follows.

In the cases of "harmfully-perverse" satisfaction I would look for prior attempts at controlling said action; some kind of associated repression. I do not believe negative issues gain momentum without opposition. This does not necessarily mean they do not occur though, or are even mirrored so far outside their initial inception that their source seems to become unknowable and therefore not seen as the result of a repression at all.

[ulli]

Self first! To love Self first is important. Self acceptance, Self Love, Self responsibility. Without that we are wounded souls struggling to realize Self and projecting all the inner crap onto family, friends and community. Self sacrifice in favour of friends and community often hides a suppressed neediness that eventually leaks out!!

With Self love and Self authority governing our motivation and actions we are then able to be loving and effective community and family members. Self Love radiates and effects all others in our environment. We are then coming from wholeness and are not fragmented. We see a larger perspective.

The present system is set up in such a way that many individuals remain fragmented.
From all sides people are made to feel inferior and disempowered.
The education system and the MSM are mostly to blame. Also the paradigm of scarcity.
So unless there is a major system change there is little hope for individuals to develop such an attitude towards themselves.
We here represent a tiny percentage. We are oddballs who have been brave enough to step out of the mould.

[write4change]

This is the scenerio I paint from Occupy LA:

You are three thousand people living in an acre in a half. Your tents are right up against each other. At least 50% of you are homeless and indigent. Half of that 50% are mentally ill. You are collecting donations from the general public to feed, cloth, and shelter these. The other 50% are providing their own tents. They have stuff --- computers, cell phones, etc. They feed themselves and often feed others. They also clean their own areas etc. You have a general assemble that meets each night at 7PM to decide the rules you will function on. Most of the homeless and indigent never show up. You have a group of radicals who bang the drums all the times so hearing anyone speak to a group is more than difficult. Half of the people from the general assembly come after work to participate in forming a new democracy but they have no connection or feelings for the people actually living there and trying to bring order out of chaos. You have a sliver of people from other countries who want to show Americans how to bring about a revolution. Almost immediately, someone gets a vote through the general assembly that nothing can be passed without a 95% consensus.

This is a small slice or reality of why America is no longer functioning. How do you form a society out of this conglomeration? And if you say it is impossible under these conditions--what would make it possible? What do you do with the homeless, the indigent, and the mentally ill? Shooting them is kinder than letting them spread disease and dysfunction and take a long time to die. Housing them is very expensive which is why we don't do it. They are way to far gone to get jobs or skills. You can only ignore them for so long. They are not out of the city now; they are simply out of sight again.

Do you start by identifying how we got here? Does it even help to know. Once you have destroyed what was can you ever go back to when it was working? What does it take to create something else. If you live any were and things collapse do you think this brutish force that society chose to create can allow you as an individual to survive? Can you really be all you can be by turning your back on those who cannot see what you see?

[mosquito]

Great thread.
What makes a healthy society is a system which allows sufficient freedom to its individuals for them to express their inherent talents while at the same time having a leadership that can manage and develop infrastructures that provide education, health, security, communication and transportation.

I nominate you for a position on the council of world elders, whenever we get round to creating it. This is the clearest, simplest and most astute observation of the relationship between self and society I think I've ever seen.

An oherwise difficult topic, as lots of people will be bringing their own inherited prejudices to the discussion.

Dare I suggest that self-awareness is crucial; awareness of who you truly are, rather than who you've been told you are. A society as outlined by Ulli can only really come about if all the selves in that society are fully aware, and the society has to be structured in such a way that people can become aware of themselves. It needs to be free of greed, free of scarcity, free of dogma and its' bedfellow, ignorance and to have direction/guidance rather than control.

So, instead of "Self versus Community", why don't we strive for "Self Within Community" ?

[jagman]

Self first! To love Self first is important. Self acceptance, Self Love, Self responsibility. Without that we are wounded souls struggling to realize Self and projecting all the inner crap onto family, friends and community. Self sacrifice in favour of friends and community often hides a suppressed neediness that eventually leaks out!!

With Self love and Self authority governing our motivation and actions we are then able to be loving and effective community and family members. Self Love radiates and effects all others in our environment. We are then coming from wholeness and are not fragmented. We see a larger perspective.

The present system is set up in such a way that many individuals remain fragmented.
From all sides people are made to feel inferior and disempowered.
The education system and the MSM are mostly to blame. Also the paradigm of scarcity.
So unless there is a major system change there is little hope for individuals to develop such an attitude towards themselves.
We here represent a tiny percentage. We are oddballs who have been brave enough to step out of the mould.


Ulli, I highly respect you but I do disagree with this comment.
So unless there is a major system change there is little hope for individuals to develop such an attitude towards themselves.
Positive change never comes from an external source, It lies within.Anyone
can achieve it Just my 2 cents

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Recognizing the benefits of community during and after an economic collapse, years ago I purchased some land where 5 fresh water streams converged. It cost more that I wanted to spend, but I was hoping the meditation group I was a part of, would purchase parcels of land and create that community. The community did not manifest.

The big issues that I could not resolve were:

How are group decisions made?
How does the group respond to dysfunctional behavior? What is dysfunctional behavior?

If anyone has answers I would love to listen/read.

[modwiz]

Great start Jai. Keeping it tied into experience will help. I am now in my third season of living in a holistic community. Of the past 26 months of my life, 16 have been in a tent in a community. My situation is different, but what I have learned has earned me a good reputation among others who have been a part of intentional communities. I believe there are certain guidelines we can follow and I have based them around a healthy body and immune system concept. With pathogenic/parasitic agents as huge concerns. I am still at work and need to get back to my tent. It is easier to type on my big keyboard. The little netbook I am on now is not conducive to lengthy posts.

[Carmen]

Ulli, the authentic Self is outside of any 'system'. Within us is the ability to break out of societies 'mold'. Until we do we are just flotsam and jetsam wafting back and forth, with no power to change anything. We are only fragmented when we agree to it. It takes a warrior spirit, a mongrel spirit, to say 'up yours' to society. It often takes 'tragety' or 'shock' to break out of society' 'mold', or is that 'mould'!!

[spiritguide]

Start with family and work outward. Selfless attitude with respect for all. Personal responsibility with ability to accomplish what one likes to do for the communities betterment. Leave ego and greed behind. Give of yourself and share your gifts. Without personal commitment community will not coalesce. When it is everybody's job then somebody will complete the task and nobody needs to take credit. Welcome all and discourage none. IMHO

[modwiz]

Start with family and work outward. Selfless attitude with respect for all. Personal responsibility with ability to accomplish what one likes to do for the communities betterment. Leave ego and greed behind. Give of yourself and share your gifts. Without personal commitment community will not coalesce. When it is everybody's job then somebody will complete the task and nobody needs to take credit. Welcome all and discourage none. IMHO

A dysfunctional family is a disease on a community. Families can pose the biggest problem. At least as they are conceived in current Western concepts. There are other models that are more community oriented.

[Mike]

i just consulted myself and he said the self is more important. of course, he's biased.

though if everyone thought that way, community would cease to exist, and therefore self would cease to exist, seeing as though community is made up of 'self's'. this is my 3d materialistic view.

my spiritual side seems to be saying that the greatest responsibility to the community is to present a healthy and multidimensional 'self', to contribute to the health of a thriving community. the community, in turn, will scratch the back of the 'self'.

this is also all a bit allegorical, and i'm not sure if it's Reaver's intent, but there is also an element of socialism vs capitalism here. and, as usual, the answer is heavily nuanced and lies somewhere in the middle.

"tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance" -- Albert Maysles

[ulli]

Group decisions are currently made through party political means. This is wrong, and creates duality, where much energy is wasted in battling against the opposition.
If the large global corporations had adopted such a system they would never have gotten off the ground.
Imagine the shareholders voting for different parties...ie four years the company is run by union leaders, the next four years by human resource staff. That would be absurd.
A community must elect its councils, who have only the well being of their people at heart, and who consult on the issues as they present themselves. If consensus can't be reached, then majority vote will decide what's to be done.
Regular annual elections. Secret ballot. No campaigning.

[spiritguide]

Maternal in nature vs paternal, the guys got us into this mess we need the girls to straighten it up now... just an observation.

[A Simple Human]

Balance

It has become apparent to me that a balance must be struck between selfishness and selflessness. Currently in this realm of existence, the vast majority of individuals exist within a community and the community is comprised of individuals; thereby, forming a symbiotic relationship.

If one only focuses on the self while completely forgoing the community, then one risks the likely chance that the community becomes permeated with entities that are also self absorbed and diametrically opposed to the well being of one's self. In this case, one becomes complicit in one's own demise through the degradation and encroachment of the community.

If one only focuses on the community while completely ignoring one's self, then one can help create an extremely vibrant, loving, and thriving community at one's own detriment. By totally neglecting one's self, the chances are great that one would eventually wither away and expire, while the community may continue to thrive. Essentially one would not get to enjoy the fruits of one's labor.

Of course the balance may not necessarily be static. There are times when one must focus more on one's self rather than the community, as well as the converse. I can only assume that the concept of balance transcends this realm of existence.

In my estimation our collective communities (human society) are presently out of balance and harbor too much individual selfishness. Balance must be struck at some point.

"Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself"

[ulli]

Self first! To love Self first is important. Self acceptance, Self Love, Self responsibility. Without that we are wounded souls struggling to realize Self and projecting all the inner crap onto family, friends and community. Self sacrifice in favour of friends and community often hides a suppressed neediness that eventually leaks out!!

With Self love and Self authority governing our motivation and actions we are then able to be loving and effective community and family members. Self Love radiates and effects all others in our environment. We are then coming from wholeness and are not fragmented. We see a larger perspective.

The present system is set up in such a way that many individuals remain fragmented.
From all sides people are made to feel inferior and disempowered.
The education system and the MSM are mostly to blame. Also the paradigm of scarcity.
So unless there is a major system change there is little hope for individuals to develop such an attitude towards themselves.
We here represent a tiny percentage. We are oddballs who have been brave enough to step out of the mould.


Ulli, I highly respect you but I do disagree with this comment.
So unless there is a major system change there is little hope for individuals to develop such an attitude towards themselves.
Positive change never comes from an external source, It lies within.Anyone
can achieve it Just my 2 cents

You are right, anyone can achieve it, but are they even aware of such an option?
Sure they can achieve it if they desire it.
It is the indoctrination mechanics of the current paradigm that stifles all possibilities of self inquiry,
let alone self change. Few people are looking within.
I thought that was pretty obvious.

[write4change]

Recognizing the benefits of community during and after an economic collapse, years ago I purchased some land where 5 fresh water streams converged. It cost more that I wanted to spend, but I was hoping the meditation group I was a part of, would purchase parcels of land and create that community. The community did not manifest.

The big issues that I could not resolve were:

How are group decisions made?
How does the group respond to dysfunctional behavior? What is dysfunctional behavior?

If anyone has answers I would love to listen/read.

Picking up on your intentions. I have been rhere you are and done what you did. I lost a million and half dollars doing it. I am going to do it again. Simplier, cheaper, and different.

One of the things I learned is that I threw away my own power trying to come to consensus. Part of my personal problem was trying to perserve myself within a community that really did not exist without contracts and committment.

This time I am buying a small piece of property close by that I can support and maintain myself on first and above all for if I do not survive this particular intentional community will not survive.

I recently traveled the country by back roads to see what was out there and what was possible. The west has a substantial number of survivalist particularly in Arizona. They have built fortresses on hills. They are off the grid. They have small canons. They fly the confederate flag or don't tread on me. They on one small bomb from extinction and they seem to think there will be no air power.

I have followed some groups for about ten years in various ways. I tried hippy communal living in the late 60s. All groups just like all forums have ego problems. Some of the professional approaches have been great in building but the living together is just starting. These people say things like we are taking 2,000 people, whe are going underground and building nine stories. You will make formal application listing your skills of various kinds including social, you will bring to the plate a minimum of 100,000 dollars. This filter gets people who get down to work right away. These people are determined in chrisis will they survive, they very realistically say it is a crap shoot. We take our best shot. They see inevitable collapse.

Groups who start totally poor make very little progress over ten years but they are content with their ten years. They began with no money for infrastructure and they remain with very little infrastructure.

My plan is to provide for myself first. I pretty much am guaranteed 150,000 to work with. 50,000 will provide for me. For a 100,000 I can buy 58 acres of rolling pasture land with wooded acreage of 50 foot or more pines, a full acre pond. I put 20,000 down which leaves me with 80,000 to function with to start. Another 10,000 will put down an 1800 sq foot manufactured home to work out of. That leaves 800 a month payments. Now I have 70,000 to choose if I make a well, drag in plumbing long distance, start totally off the grid electrically, put in wind mill, put in a minimum of 30 pecan trees which gets you agricultural rates on everything and in ten years a thousand dollar a tree income.

While I have doubly checked and this is remote enough that I don't need permits and is three generation land with clear fee simple. For some time I will keep the title of the land. But I plan to lease one acre lots for a dollar a year. Houses on them must be built as earthships, earthbags, cobb housing--plans must be approved by me. The least building cost acceptable is 10,000. Houses can be sold with the dollar a year lease contingent on my approval. This type of community exists in North Carolina and these 10,000 earthships have appraised out at 40,000 and can be sold for that amount. To not disturb the existing surrounding community the purpose of this community to have on going camps teaching survival skills and building experiemental housing that suvive disasters. see you tube the garbage warrior. We will build to create a litteral looking hobbit community. People can lease their houses out for other people to experience the living in concept. Eventually is stablity and committment manifests-=-it will become a 501c3, a permanent non profit survival skill operation that people lease from the nonprofit organization which eventually buys me out at my costs. We will build places and projects of eco entertainment. Mazes, stocked ponds, three sister agriculture, producing meat rabbits, chickens, and axis deer. We will lease small groups of goats or sheep with dog and shepherds to go in and clean up weeded tree area property. Everything to the height of the goat is eaten. This is a tumbnail sketch of how I think I can bring this about this time.

There is also a major TED professor at the University of Texas in Austin that I will invite to bring his students up to try this out who is out front in lot of this work. And I will eventually contact the University of California at Long Beach for interns--the only university giving a BA in recreation.

I put this out there because I have come back ready to implement a plan. I throw this out for the first let me have it feed back. Obviously many have considered me today dishing. So turn about is fair play and I never get in a kitchen where I can't handle the heat.

[Chester]

If one is not their authentic self, how can they be any good for any community? Something suggests to me it starts with the self and perhaps ends there as well... and the community thrives with folks of this ilk. And at least it wouldn't be boring. Chester

[Mike]

anybody here read 'The Holographic Universe'?. Michael Talbot?

it did a remarkable job, for me anyway, of proving practically -- thru dumbed-down psychics --what i previously thought of as the number 1 spiritual trite-ism, *we are all one*

truthfully, in the past i'd groan every time i heard someone say or write this, thinking it a default position for the mentally deficient, or maybe an ignorant repetition of something they'd read in an Eckhart Tolle book or something. but it became very real for me the second i imagined the world as a phantasmagoric interference pattern -- a hologram -- that is only divided up into parts the second it is translated by our eyes.

the self? the community? it's the same thing essentially in the final analysis. as Ulli pointed out, the spectrum is enormous here, and the permutations vast and the answers highly complex and heavily nuanced. we can come up with a million hypothetical scenarios, but generally we'll discover that what's good for the community is what's good for the self, and vice-versa.

(*Chinaski, retiring his poor man's Confucius after re-reading his pseudo-esoterica;))

[ulli]

Recognizing the benefits of community during and after an economic collapse, years ago I purchased some land where 5 fresh water streams converged. It cost more that I wanted to spend, but I was hoping the meditation group I was a part of, would purchase parcels of land and create that community. The community did not manifest.

The big issues that I could not resolve were:

How are group decisions made?
How does the group respond to dysfunctional behavior? What is dysfunctional behavior?

If anyone has answers I would love to listen/read.

Picking up on your intentions. I have been rhere you are and done what you did. I lost a million and half dollars doing it. I am going to do it again. Simplier, cheaper, and different.

One of the things I learned is that I threw away my own power trying to come to consensus. Part of my personal problem was trying to perserve myself within a community that really did not exist without contracts and committment.

This time I am buying a small piece of property close by that I can support and maintain myself on first and above all for if I do not survive this particular intentional community will not survive.

I recently traveled the country by back roads to see what was out there and what was possible. The west has a substantial number of survivalist particularly in Arizona. They have built fortresses on hills. They are off the grid. They have small canons. They fly the confederate flag or don't tread on me. They on one small bomb from extinction and they seem to think there will be no air power.

I have followed some groups for about ten years in various ways. I tried hippy communal living in the late 60s. All groups just like all forums have ego problems. Some of the professional approaches have been great in building but the living together is just starting. These people say things like we are taking 2,000 people, whe are going underground and building nine stories. You will make formal application listing your skills of various kinds including social, you will bring to the plate a minimum of 100,000 dollars. This filter gets people who get down to work right away. These people are determined in chrisis will they survive, they very realistically say it is a crap shoot. We take our best shot. They see inevitable collapse.

Groups who start totally poor make very little progress over ten years but they are content with their ten years. They began with no money for infrastructure and they remain with very little infrastructure.

My plan is to provide for myself first. I pretty much am guaranteed 150,000 to work with. 50,000 will provide for me. For a 100,000 I can buy 58 acres of rolling pasture land with wooded acreage of 50 foot or more pines, a full acre pond. I put 20,000 down which leaves me with 80,000 to function with to start. Another 10,000 will put down an 1800 sq foot manufactured home to work out of. That leaves 800 a month payments. Now I have 70,000 to choose if I make a well, drag in plumbing long distance, start totally off the grid electrically, put in wind mill, put in a minimum of 30 pecan trees which gets you agricultural rates on everything and in ten years a thousand dollar a tree income.

While I have doubly checked and this is remote enough that I don't need permits and is three generation land with clear fee simple. For some time I will keep the title of the land. But I plan to lease one acre lots for a dollar a year. Houses on them must be built as earthships, earthbags, cobb housing--plans must be approved by me. The least building cost acceptable is 10,000. Houses can be sold with the dollar a year lease contingent on my approval. This type of community exists in North Carolina and these 10,000 earthships have appraised out at 40,000 and can be sold for that amount. To not disturb the existing surrounding community the purpose of this community to have on going camps teaching survival skills and building experiemental housing that suvive disasters. see you tube the garbage warrior. We will build to create a litteral looking hobbit community. People can lease their houses out for other people to experience the living in concept. Eventually is stablity and committment manifests-=-it will become a 501c3, a permanent non profit survival skill operation that people lease from the nonprofit organization which eventually buys me out at my costs. We will build places and projects of eco entertainment. Mazes, stocked ponds, three sister agriculture, producing meat rabbits, chickens, and axis deer. We will lease small groups of goats or sheep with dog and shepherds to go in and clean up weeded tree area property. Everything to the height of the goat is eaten. This is a tumbnail sketch of how I think I can bring this about this time.

There is also a major TED professor at the University of Texas in Austin that I will invite to bring his students up to try this out who is out front in lot of this work. And I will eventually contact the University of California at Long Beach for interns--the only university giving a BA in recreation.

I put this out there because I have come back ready to implement a plan. I throw this out for the first let me have it feed back. Obviously many have considered me today dishing. So turn about is fair play and I never get in a kitchen where I can't handle the heat.
Love that Mike Reynolds and his Earthships. A young American is trying to build one here in Costa Rica near us, but the local municipality are giving him hell worse than the kind Reynolds went through.
Of course nothing a decent bribe can't solve, but most Americans are not used to going that route.

[rgray222]

I know nothing about you. I would like to remove this topic from any tinge of inherent racism. Can we leave Obama out of this and focus on the initial questions that Reaver asked? The country is going to vote on this and we will get to see that play out.

I think when we try to limit a discussion or put conditions on a discussion before it gets off the ground it diminishes the value of that discussion.

[Hughe]

@Reaver

When I realized the existence of soul that has transcending property beyond physical world humans conceive, I put "self" over "community."
This life, my past lives on Earth have been served as playground for learning. When there is nothing new to my soul one day, I'll simply go to somewhere in universe.

Ideal society must preserve individual's right and freedom. Why collective intelligence of Earthlings has been miserably failed so far?

[enfoldedblue]

hi
It's funny because I know what I am going to say sounds crazy/ idealistic, but I also KNOW it is true :). Self is not in opposition to community as the thread title suggests. Right now we are operating from a space of distortion where we experience ourselves as separate. Deep down we are scared of each other and at a deeper level ourselves. What we really fear is just the unknown.

When we reach down deep within and explore ourselves honestly and thoroughly we dissipate the unknown within and, eventually, we reach the point where we align/connect with our deepest truest self...the part of ourselves that is directly connected source point (or whatever term you prefer). Operating from this point of alignment we can exists in complete harmony with our environment. Our deepest desires (not our socially manipulated ones) are naturally in line with the good of the whole. We each become unique expressions of an incredible intelligent cohesive energy. We each have special gifts, something worth sharing and our roles to play. Right now everyone is vying for control and power and making decisions based on fear, but when we are brave enough to let go and trust the wisdom of our hearts, we open ourselves to experiencing a profound shift in our reality.

This is what I believe is occurring presently. There are many of us beginning to experience this shift within. We are shifting from distortion to alignment. I have no idea how long this process will take on a collective level...centuries, decades, years...? But I am sure it is happening :)

[write4change]

I listen to Graham Hancock's most recent interview of two and a half hours twice last night. Not my complete attention so I will do it again to night. I love his voice it is so soothing. I, like him, do not think something extremely cataclysmic is going to happen in December. OTOH, with me and paradoxes, buttercups in the stomachs of wooley mammoths said it once happened almost instantly so who knows. I, like Hancock, only want to be surrounded by friends and family. That being said, I have been really driven to get out of LA before then. I cannot repair my family damage in time to do much because deep resolution of tough psychic stuff requires substantial time and effort and I waited too long.

I too, like Hancock and others believe a shift is happening. I just can't see what it is. I feel propelled to take concrete action that makes a statement of what I believe. Shows I will walk the talk. I have a feeling that is important at least for me. I live in surrender to the universe but I have plan A and plan B and I believe they were placed in my mind by the universe. Coming into harmony even on this site requires action, We do something to achieve it.

I rarely indulge in channeled stuff from myself. When it happens I observe it but I have never put out this is what I got. But one of the things I have gotten more and more clearly is that every soul that has ever lived more or less is on this planet now so that this will be a planetary decision and that somekind of harvesting of souls takes place in some kind of form. I have seen multiple videos of the power of the flower of life in sacred geometry and the crop circles more or less saying a moment will come when all of humanity must telepatheically unite to produce mental force field to shild the planet and I look at us here at Avalon---and feel no way.

But I am still here. I am going to kick this can as hard as I can for the next couple of months. To me love is action. It is doing redeeming. Tell me what you would do. Tell me how you use your power.

Bill Ryan just posted on one of the threads the substantiation that the beings from the future fear more than anything that we weill discover our power which is as great as theirs. Go read it. hear it. Feel it and then tell me what you do---now.

[norman]

Self lifts community.

Without that, community becomes a prison routine or a mechanical intellect and a path to 'robo-me'.

[norman]

A dysfunctional family is a disease on a community........




Mostly to do with broken or trespassed upon personal sovereignty.

[jagman]

This is boiling down to the classic chicken or egg arguement. So Im taking chicken

[gripreaper]

Feel it and then tell me what you do---now.

Doing is only one aspect of creation. Both polarities, doing and being, need to be present. Doing is the masculine inertia and it needs the feminine "being" for creation to nest this energy for it to become manifest in a state which is in harmony and unity. Doing is the inertia with which we send the energetic signal out into the matrix, yet is is the "being" which receives, encapsulates, and engulfs this energy, for BOTH polarities are required.

The patriarchal notion that we need to DO something in order to change things is only half the story, and by itself forces an unbalanced creation which is not sustainable and will always fail. Until we realize, that our manifestations are mute without the receptive feminine, we will create polarized states which include the opposite polarized outcome.

What this means, is that those who adhere to "The Secret" may get what they want, but they will also attract the opposite. This is where we get good and evil.

In unity, there is no good and evil, only truth.

[Anchor]

Self first! To love Self first is important. Self acceptance, Self Love, Self responsibility. Without that we are wounded souls struggling to realize Self and projecting all the inner crap onto family, friends and community. Self sacrifice in favour of friends and community often hides a suppressed neediness that eventually leaks out!!

With Self love and Self authority governing our motivation and actions we are then able to be loving and effective community and family members. Self Love radiates and effects all others in our environment. We are then coming from wholeness and are not fragmented. We see a larger perspective.

Super good post but to my eyes it doesn't really thoroughly answer the question asked by Reaver.

It is undoubtedly important to sort our own lives out first, but we also can be massively aided doing that when working as part of a community.

The evolutions of self and other-selves are intrinsically linked anyway, which is why we have both. We are all connected - even if, as sovereign individuals, we are able to set that notion aside for a time.

In the majority of cases, we have chosen, for better or worse to evolve as a group consisting of the self and other-selves.

We benefit from community that acts as the external (to us) reflectors of that within us that needs work.

So we can prioritize the work on our selves, but we cannot ignore the fact that it is our relationships with our otherselves - the community - that enables that work to be catalyzed efficiently.

Another aspect of this is that it is not all about dealing with our inner "negatives" sometimes we have an abundance of inner "positives" that are naturally of use and aid to our other-selves.

Perhaps a more complete approach would be do divide the answer over the negative issues in ourselves and a different one for the positives that are blossoming flowers that also need care and attention - not just for ourselves, but for us all. The work we do on ourselves is not strictly confined to one or the other, but the negatives get more air time as they seem to be more pressing problems.

[Chuck]

Thanks Reaver, some very good thoughts here so far.

My 2 cents is about “how do we define self?”

“self” for many people is that which is defined by their physical body. (Yet even that is not understood… eg difference between that and mind/consciousness). Yet “self” for a mother will include her baby with herself. That which concerns her baby… that which harms or supports her baby, harms or supports her. So in that instance, we get the notion of “self” including another entity.

Many have experienced themselves or witnessed someone who, in their sense of “self” includes all their family members. When one entity suffers, he/she also suffers… or vice/versa when one family member experiences joy, they themselves experience the joy as if it is their own.

In rare instances we hear about an individual’s sense of self extending to a greater community. That community may be a work place, village/town/city, batallion/squadron/military unit, religious organization/commune where the “self” includes every entity within the group. As if the hologram/morphogenetic field of each quantized individual is resonant and coherent within the individual being aware of the whole.

Even rarer still is the individual whose sense of “self” includes an entire country or planet.

For most of us we slip in and out of identifying ourselves with others... we include our sense of “self” with others depending on when/how we are thinking of them. It is not as disciplined and not as passionate… yet we still do it.

So “self” can be an individual person yet can be multiple persons depending on how you define yourself to be.

Be aware and be conscious of the fact that a good leader will seduce you and your thinking into including yourself as part of their whole. This is NOT a bad thing provided there is a pay back for you… just don’t blame them for you falling for the seduction. Sadly most broken marriages ends in a blame game. Clearly pissed off that they at one time identified themselves as two people, not one. heheheh

[Flash]

Self first! To love Self first is important. Self acceptance, Self Love, Self responsibility. Without that we are wounded souls struggling to realize Self and projecting all the inner crap onto family, friends and community. Self sacrifice in favour of friends and community often hides a suppressed neediness that eventually leaks out!!

With Self love and Self authority governing our motivation and actions we are then able to be loving and effective community and family members. Self Love radiates and effects all others in our environment. We are then coming from wholeness and are not fragmented. We see a larger perspective.

This is strange, but I truly think that the reverse can also be true. Totally forgetting the self, diving into helping others, being totally dedicated to others may also lead to self authority and self love. In the old times this was called sacrifice. Which lots and lots of our ancestors have made in order for their keen, families, nation to survive. Many mothers/fathers still do it, giving their life for their family.

I was reading a book last week end on the kiling field in Cambodgia under the Kmers Rouge, and lots of parents gave their life for their children. I sincerely think that forgetting about the self and completely submerging in communities needs is a path to wisdom as well, at the minimum a path to wisdom of the heart.

Then self love is in turn developped through love of others and self responsibility is accomplished through reponsibility for others as well. I do not agree with self sacrifice leaking a supressed neediness that eventually leaks out. Sometimes self sacrifice is simply acting to solve an emergent urgent problem, with not much thought towards self other than love for others (I am not talking of those in need of helping to satisfy a craving to be recognized and considered, but those helping because there is a need, nothing more). How would you explain spiritual development within the service to others framework otherwise?

I would tentatively even say that this great self consideration, loving the self, self self self, in the west is in part the cause of our corrupted govenrment, crooked ways of thinking, etc.

If you talk of the Higher Self, then this another story altogether.

[conk]

Self must come first. A community of misfits would be disfunctional.

[Peace of Mind]

You are to preserve yourself first and foremost. Once you love yourself you will begin to see how ridiculously easy it is to love others. When we stop spending so much time in the mirror attempting to make that image fit the mainstream image we will have more productive citizens and communities. When we decide to be ourselves instead of blind followers we all will lead humanity into a prosperous future. We can do whatever we want to do in this world just as long as we don’t hurt others in the process. The mind is infinite in thought and the many different people and personalities represent this. Life would be totally boring if everyone thought and did the same exact thing, very little would be learned much less experienced. Just be who you are and let no one deter you from that, your uniqueness is needed, don’t be afraid to be you and never make attempts to change who you are just to fit within a community, always be real and remember that we are all advancing and no one is better than the other.

As the saying goes “It takes a village to raise a child”. Knowing this… I like to think a strong community can change the course of history. The elite community has proven this time and time again.

Peace

[DoubleHelix]

I find myself in agreeance and at odds with some of the posters in this thread. I don't agree with the whole "self first" notion, this can be dangerous if utilised in the wrong fashion - causing one to tend to only their own needs and subsequently becoming distant from others. This type of behaviour can largely be attributed to the new age community.

I think many can benefit from being apart of a community, but only when the community is built upon a strong foundation, contains structure and adheres to certain principles. A community of balanced members can aid an individual to grow as a person, learn to respect one another and find their true purpose in life. Like a large family of sorts the strength of a pack can allow individuals to develop their weaknesses by gaining wisdom from lots of different sources(people).

[Arrowwind]

. This type of behaviour can largely be attributed to the new age community.

).

you lost me right there... the new age community that brought forth renewed interest in food co-ops, communal living, advances in alternative medicine, renewed support of extended family as opposed to nuclear family, open hearted communication.

I dont know what newage folks you know but they aint the newage folks I know.

[ulli]

I find myself in agreeance and at odds with some of the posters in this thread. I don't agree with the whole "self first" notion, this can be dangerous if utilised in the wrong fashion - causing one to tend to only their own needs and subsequently becoming distant from others. This type of behaviour can largely be attributed to the new age community.

I think many can benefit from being apart of a community, but only when the community is built upon a strong foundation, contains structure and adheres to certain principles. A community of balanced members can aid an individual to grow as a person, learn to respect one another and find their true purpose in life. Like a large family of sorts the strength of a pack can allow individuals to develop their weaknesses by gaining wisdom from lots of different sources(people).

Very true.
One should never forget that a community is made up of people of all ages, newborn babies included, and the elederly, and some of them sick, so there has to be an interchange going on at all times.
Whoever is fit to assist should do so, because further down the road it might be their turn to be on the receiving end.

[Arrowwind]

[
This is strange, but I truly think that the reverse can also be true. Totally forgetting the self, diving into helping others, being totally dedicated to others may also lead to self authority and self love. In the old times this was called sacrifice. Which lots and lots of our ancestors have made in order for their keen, families, nation to survive. Many mothers/fathers still do it, giving their life for their family.

.

Actually forgetting the self is the same as putting the self first... When one forgets all the petty needs and wants suddenly who we truly are, our true self, emerges. You can't escape.

[Flash]

Actually forgetting the self is the same as putting the self first... When one forgets all the petty needs and wants suddenly who we truly are, our true self, emerges. You can't escape.

[/QUOTE]

Exactly. The egg or the chicken?? Therefore, the solution to this thread if found. Wherever you start, you end up at the same place.

[ulli]

Self must come first. A community of misfits would be disfunctional.

Spot-on. Everyone here is right.
Since physical existence ends in death and the individual dies alone, it is the self that matters most.
Wherever it goes afterwards, that new world is harvesting it as a fruit from the tree of this world.

There was an interesting movie, black and white, in the sixties called Shock Corridor...
A thriller about a murder in a mental asylum, and the investigator goes in as a patient to try and find out who did it.
Guess what happened to the sane guy in an insane community?

[modwiz]

Self must come first. A community of misfits would be disfunctional.

Spot-on. Everyone here is right.
Since physical existence ends in death and the individual dies alone, it is the self that matters most.
Wherever it goes afterwards, that new world is harvesting it as a fruit from the tree of this world.

There was an interesting movie, black and white, in the sixties called Shock Corridor...
A thriller about a murder in a mental asylum, and the investigator goes in as a patient to try and find out who did it.
Guess what happened to the sane guy in an insane community?

He happened as the screenwriter wrote him.

[ulli]

Self must come first. A community of misfits would be disfunctional.

Spot-on. Everyone here is right.
Since physical existence ends in death and the individual dies alone, it is the self that matters most.
Wherever it goes afterwards, that new world is harvesting it as a fruit from the tree of this world.

There was an interesting movie, black and white, in the sixties called Shock Corridor...
A thriller about a murder in a mental asylum, and the investigator goes in as a patient to try and find out who did it.
Guess what happened to the sane guy in an insane community?

He did what the screenwriter wrote him to do.

Duh! Where have you been all my life? Trust you to come up with that line...
Ok, so I slacked a bit...Modwiz is back, I had better watch out.

Instead of mentioning a fake movie I should have told my own story...
But that would have hurt, and woken up the ol' pain body.

[modwiz]

Self must come first. A community of misfits would be disfunctional.

Spot-on. Everyone here is right.
Since physical existence ends in death and the individual dies alone, it is the self that matters most.
Wherever it goes afterwards, that new world is harvesting it as a fruit from the tree of this world.

There was an interesting movie, black and white, in the sixties called Shock Corridor...
A thriller about a murder in a mental asylum, and the investigator goes in as a patient to try and find out who did it.
Guess what happened to the sane guy in an insane community?

He did what the screenwriter wrote him to do.

Duh! Where have you been all my life? Trust you to come up with that line...
Ok, so I slacked a bit...Modwiz is back, I had better watch out.

Instead of mentioning a fake movie I should have told my own story...
But that would have hurt, and woken up the ol' pain body.

So, what point was the screenwriter wanting to make? It does have relevance, IMO.

[Carmody]

Self must come first. A community of misfits would be disfunctional.

Spot-on. Everyone here is right.
Since physical existence ends in death and the individual dies alone, it is the self that matters most.
Wherever it goes afterwards, that new world is harvesting it as a fruit from the tree of this world.

There was an interesting movie, black and white, in the sixties called Shock Corridor...
A thriller about a murder in a mental asylum, and the investigator goes in as a patient to try and find out who did it.
Guess what happened to the sane guy in an insane community?

He happened as the screenwriter wrote him.

I caught the Mod on the Mod.

Which I think is more appropriate.... :p

[Carmen]

Yes Flash, I do mean the Higher Self, the authentic Self. The ego self is generally self serving. Mothers generally always protect their young, because their babies are part of themselves, not separate. Actually, all in my world is part of me and not separate. My animals, plants, systems, vehicles are part of my vibration. How I nurture, care for, maintain, comes under my sphere of influence. I nurture and inspire my family and friends by sharing with them my insights and experience. I do not control them in any way, I observe and enjoy the creative difference in all others and that's inspirational for me. At the moment my friends and some family are really brainstorming the ideas and ideals of holistic farming so ideas and project ideas are flying thick and fast.

I have no experience and no desire to be in a totally close and shared community. It would just not work for me. I'm far too private, independent and solitary for that. But I do enjoy interacting, sharing, swapping, trading goods and services with family and friends. We do it all the time and it's nothing formal and has no set rules. I like the idea of small partnerships with shared profit as in one partner perhaps supplying the finance and the other the work for a shared profit. My husband has done thIs for years and enabled many young farmers to end up owning ther own farms. My family and friends will ideally share in my extended farm in a way that their interests and creativity will enhance their income and job satisfaction. Accommadation in a high country hobbit house is one idea being pursued. Horse trekking another one.

[ulli]

Self must come first. A community of misfits would be disfunctional.

Spot-on. Everyone here is right.
Since physical existence ends in death and the individual dies alone, it is the self that matters most.
Wherever it goes afterwards, that new world is harvesting it as a fruit from the tree of this world.

There was an interesting movie, black and white, in the sixties called Shock Corridor...
A thriller about a murder in a mental asylum, and the investigator goes in as a patient to try and find out who did it.
Guess what happened to the sane guy in an insane community?

He did what the screenwriter wrote him to do.

Duh! Where have you been all my life? Trust you to come up with that line...
Ok, so I slacked a bit...Modwiz is back, I had better watch out.

Instead of mentioning a fake movie I should have told my own story...
But that would have hurt, and woken up the ol' pain body.

So, what point was the screenwriter wanting to make? It does have relevance, IMO.

Found this statement, which takes it even further than the initial point I wanted to make about environment

"What makes this movie brilliant -- a masterpiece -- is the incredible manner in which Fuller takes this basic story of one man's overwhelming desire for fame and recognition and extrapolates it allegorically, creating a powerful parable that reveals this seat-squirming truth: if one man can be destroyed by an absorption into irrational thoughts, so can an entire society. Once you admit America is one big asylum, then it's hard to tell the sane from the crazy when we're all walking down that same symbolic corridor."

[SKAWF]

my view is that we've been adjusted so that the external world takes priority over the internal world.
so in order to fix that,
we must, on an individual level, re-adjust back to having the internal world as the master.
once we've all done that, and we are back to our position of strength,

THEN, we create a new community.

only much stronger than before.

this may have already been suggested, i havnt read every post yet!

(between you and me, i havnt read any post yet........ but i will!)

[modwiz]

My approach to community, especially intentional communities, is based on the inherent wholistic health of a properly function body. I spell wholistic here the way I believe it is properly spelt. The common holistic has a hole in it. Health is about the whole, and not the hole. I further function on proper immune functioning and response and have taken some cues from both subtle anatomy knowledge and scientific anatomy. They do belong together and their separation is a contrivance of those who would pick either brain lobe over the other rather than their proper integration and coordination.

The other focus for me is culture and getting to, what I believe is, the root of its' meaning. To make this quick and easy I will pick yogurt and cheese cultures. Both are made from milk. Milk represents the masses and the the yogurt/cheese culture represent a specific coherence and "way", or tao.
What is interesting about these cultures is their ability to take something that spoil and break down quickly into something that can have a considerably longer existence and is self perpetuating given a supply of the right medium. Here is where culture and people, the medium, find a symbiosis.

I will end this part here. This needs to unfold in digestible servings. Too much to discuss will create garbled conversation or long posts that many might find daunting and skip over.

I will say that self vs. community describes what could be called an auto-immune response. Reaver opened the thread with a phrase that came up in another discussion. It serves fine as a thread name. I will not follow it as a template for greater discussion but address it as a form of pathology in a healthy community. In a broken society it becomes the seed vault, so to speak, of what was once wholesome and viable.

Write4change is an amazing asset to this discussion. Her intellect and experience will persent ideas from another perspective than mine. Her piece is a very important consideration and certainly addresses the nuts and bolts aspects of monetary and legal issues. I will be addressing the spirit or DNA of a community. Together I believe a very comprehensive picture will emerge. One that may enable the discussion to find real world applicability.

[music]

Difference between self and other? Interesting concept, yes, let's discuss something that actually doesn't exist. But I guess it "exists" in the fear-based illusion we now find ourselves in. Liken it to evolution then - we are born in to seperation and we evolve into realisation of unity. In this process love of self is first and foremost. I am a beautiful and amazing person, and so are each and every one of you. We don't see this beauty because instead of instead of playing here, we have allowed ourselves to be led into fear by those who fear. The big power players on this planet are the most fearful of us all, and these are the souls that we let guide and shape the direction and quality of our time here. Is that not insane? Love ourselves honestly - look into all our dark corners, find the things we fear - accept them - love them. When fear is gone we are left with love - the desire for love - our one common need - the pull of the truth of our true nature. Find the commanality within our fellow humans - accept the fact that we are one, glorious, beautiful being isolated by fear. Admit we fear, admit we fear, admit we fear. Don't be swayed by the fragile ego and its need to appear to be in control. If we don't operate through love, we are controlled by fear. Fear comes from giving pre-eminence to the head, love is the condition of the pre-eminent heart. The choice, be controlled by fear or rejoice in love - its a no-brainer as they say. Community is an analogue to unity consciousness, why do we think the power-brokers do their best to destroy it? Our political system even has polarised the concept further - the fear based selfishness of capitalism and the concept of a true social(ist) community-based system (which we are yet to have, but which is the intent of left-handed politics). In fact, the social manipulators have been very careful to demonise the concept of community in politics, while fostering the fear that drives people to consideration of self above all others.

Fear is the product of a sick ego, anger is fear mediated by consciousness, the goal of ego is to foster seperation, this is why it is unwise for us to let the ego take the driver's seat.

This is worth repeating:


enfoldedblue: Self is not in opposition to community as the thread title suggests. Right now we are operating from a space of distortion where we experience ourselves as separate. Deep down we are scared of each other and at a deeper level ourselves. What we really fear is just the unknown.

[modwiz]

Recognizing the benefits of community during and after an economic collapse, years ago I purchased some land where 5 fresh water streams converged. It cost more that I wanted to spend, but I was hoping the meditation group I was a part of, would purchase parcels of land and create that community. The community did not manifest.

The big issues that I could not resolve were:

How are group decisions made?
How does the group respond to dysfunctional behavior? What is dysfunctional behavior?

If anyone has answers I would love to listen/read.

Group decisions? This can be a tricky question unless we cut to the chase and realize we are not equal in capabilities. Any other discussion is fraudulent, IMO. However, we all excel in something, if we are showing up and not just freeloading. Intentional communities are magnets for parasites. The good intentions of such communities make them very susceptible to the sociopathic cunning of parasites. Good people project wholesome motives upon others. That is where the equivalent of an immune system is needed in any community that hopes to last and be healthy and viable.

Back to decisions. Pursuant to the body of material I am introducing to this thread is the concept of culture. There must be a coherent beginning culture to deal with the influx of people/growth medium. It is the established culture that makes decisions. None of this is frozen or static, but is must be harmonious. Like a chord or key structure, dissonance is not hard to spot unless one is tone deaf. So a cultural concept with a future view of itself is required. This is the DNA of a community and must be present. Imagine a body forming in the womb, and then after emerging, without some plan of its future iteration. The original operating system of DNA is just a coherent template. As many of us are learning, DNA is a dynamic interface system and is open to new facts and direction. Those of us who take responsibility for our own health and well being know how crucial our future view of our self is to a pleasing life unfolding for us. The relationships we choose are one of the most important decisions we will make in out lives. The impact of these decisions on our health is often overlooked.

Decisions must be made by those who have the cultures DNA. People in the community form the cells of the body. Obviously decisions will be for the benefit of all. Unhappy cells are out of harmony and either require attunement or ejection. This is an immune response. Improper immune response will result in the body sickening, and perhaps death.

Dysfunctional behavior is disruptive behavior that effects the health of the body/community. The group/body, if healthy, will have an immune response which either directs health providing energy to the pathogenic area or dismantles/ejects the pathogen. Any other response is the self not loving the self enough to take the action that will bring back equilibrium and health.

One of the reasons that sociopaths and psychopaths are found at the top of societies is they make these immune decisions with ease. With healthy people it is more about proper love of self, the healthy community, that allows for hard, but necessary decisions to be made. Most would rather find a compromise and then you have a compromised immune system and the poor, dysfunctional, health that goes with it.

[CD7]

This idea came up briefly in another thread and it may prove to be very useful to explore this topic in more depth.

Which one is more important? the individuality of a human being? or the well-being of a community?

The true cultivation of an individual being IS the WELL BEING of the PLANET

What is a Self? how does it develop? how is it influenced?

A being develops through the heart...INFLUENCING any being is not really developing their true self....provide examples for them to choose. CURRENTLY the examples are not in our best interest--we all know this...

What is a community? how is does it evolve? who decides what's best for the group?

I tend to think more of the whole globe as the community......we have been conditioned to think in more complex terms...to me its much more SIMPLE then we discuss....WHO needs to decide anything??? We need air water food shelter...our needs to me do not appear so great! Mankind has made it F'kin complex-----FOR A reason. All resources are FREE...man is the only one who requires payment (for ALL our needs) WHICH makes things complicated..................................................

I will try to throw in my thoughts when I can come up with something coherent.









my view is that we've been adjusted so that the external world takes priority over the internal world.
so in order to fix that,
we must, on an individual level, re-adjust back to having the internal world as the master.
once we've all done that, and we are back to our position of strength,




Yes i see this too...readjusting to the internal world would be a benefit, and No i dont believe many brought up your point, glad u did!

OK theres my 2 cents :)

[scanner]

We are 1, 1 people,1 mind .

[PurpleLama]

It takes a, er, village to raise a village.

[modwiz]

We are 1, 1 people,1 mind .

And then there is the phenomenal world, where most sleep walk through their programmed life. You must be new to this spiritual stuff. Your point of view is valid, at very rarefied levels. There would be no TV or Hollywood if we were one mind in our day to day lives. The ones we wake up to after a night spent where we are all one.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


It takes a, er, village to raise a village.

That's right. It takes a culture to make more of itself.

[Carmody]

Self must come first. A community of misfits would be disfunctional.

Spot-on. Everyone here is right.
Since physical existence ends in death and the individual dies alone, it is the self that matters most.
Wherever it goes afterwards, that new world is harvesting it as a fruit from the tree of this world.

There was an interesting movie, black and white, in the sixties called Shock Corridor...
A thriller about a murder in a mental asylum, and the investigator goes in as a patient to try and find out who did it.
Guess what happened to the sane guy in an insane community?

He did what the screenwriter wrote him to do.

Duh! Where have you been all my life? Trust you to come up with that line...
Ok, so I slacked a bit...Modwiz is back, I had better watch out.

Instead of mentioning a fake movie I should have told my own story...
But that would have hurt, and woken up the ol' pain body.

So, what point was the screenwriter wanting to make? It does have relevance, IMO.

Found this statement, which takes it even further than the initial point I wanted to make about environment

"What makes this movie brilliant -- a masterpiece -- is the incredible manner in which Fuller takes this basic story of one man's overwhelming desire for fame and recognition and extrapolates it allegorically, creating a powerful parable that reveals this seat-squirming truth: if one man can be destroyed by an absorption into irrational thoughts, so can an entire society. Once you admit America is one big asylum, then it's hard to tell the sane from the crazy when we're all walking down that same symbolic corridor."

As I started to read your post, this song started playing:

VM6nuaBazo8

Nixon's spirit will be with us for the rest of our lives
Whether you're a me or Bill Clinton or you
or Kurt Cobain or Bishop Tutu or Keith Richards
or Aimee Fisher or Boris Yeltsin's Daughter
or her finance's sixteen year old beer drunk brother
With his braided goatee and his whole life like a
Thunder cloud right in front of him.

This is not a generational thing
You don't even have to know who Richard Nixon was
To be a victim of his ugly Nazi experiments.

He has poisoned our water for ever
Nixon will be remembered as a classic case
Of a smart man ****ting in his own nest
But he also **** in our nest and that was a crime
That history will burn on his memory as a brand

By disgracing and degrading the presidency of the United States
By fleeing the White House like a diseased cur
Richard Nixon broke the heart of the American dream

[13th Warrior]

For some reason when i think of "community" i cant help but think of people being dependent upon another person(s) which seems to always end in control issues...

What i can envision are; self sufficient/reliant people who can live in close proximity of each other. You make your own decisions and ask help of others if you need it.

[scanner]

We are 1, 1 people,1 mind .

And then there is the phenomenal world, where most sleep walk through their programmed life. You must be new to this spiritual stuff. Your point of view is valid, at very rarefied levels. There would be no TV or Hollywood if we were one mind in our day to day lives. The ones we wake up to after a night spent where we are all one.
¤=[Post Update]=¤


It takes a, er, village to raise a village.

That's right. It takes a culture to make more of itself.Indeed , not new though, I've been around for many lifetimes . Time for me to return home .

[Ron Mauer Sr]

For some reason when i think of "community" i cant help but think of people being dependent upon another person(s) which seems to always end in control issues...

What i can envision are; self sufficient/reliant people who can live in close proximity of each other. You make your own decisions and ask help of others if you need it.

13th Warrior, that is an excellent response to the issue of community. As Modwiz pointed out communities are a magnet for dysfunctional people. Dysfunctional people will soon destroy a community.

The most functional community is to have self sufficient neighbors with a variety of skills and supplies, neighbors with their own property and who want to help each other. Hopefully that will be created next to me. I can contribute fertile land for gardens, plenty of water and more.

[another bob]

Much appreciation for the many excellent contibutions offered in this thread!



http://i50.tinypic.com/2cruc8y.jpg

[ulli]

Self must come first. A community of misfits would be disfunctional.

Spot-on. Everyone here is right.
Since physical existence ends in death and the individual dies alone, it is the self that matters most.
Wherever it goes afterwards, that new world is harvesting it as a fruit from the tree of this world.

There was an interesting movie, black and white, in the sixties called Shock Corridor...
A thriller about a murder in a mental asylum, and the investigator goes in as a patient to try and find out who did it.
Guess what happened to the sane guy in an insane community?

He did what the screenwriter wrote him to do.

Duh! Where have you been all my life? Trust you to come up with that line...
Ok, so I slacked a bit...Modwiz is back, I had better watch out.

Instead of mentioning a fake movie I should have told my own story...
But that would have hurt, and woken up the ol' pain body.

So, what point was the screenwriter wanting to make? It does have relevance, IMO.

Found this statement, which takes it even further than the initial point I wanted to make about environment

"What makes this movie brilliant -- a masterpiece -- is the incredible manner in which Fuller takes this basic story of one man's overwhelming desire for fame and recognition and extrapolates it allegorically, creating a powerful parable that reveals this seat-squirming truth: if one man can be destroyed by an absorption into irrational thoughts, so can an entire society. Once you admit America is one big asylum, then it's hard to tell the sane from the crazy when we're all walking down that same symbolic corridor."

As I started to read your post, this song started playing:

VM6nuaBazo8

Nixon's spirit will be with us for the rest of our lives
Whether you're a me or Bill Clinton or you
or Kurt Cobain or Bishop Tutu or Keith Richards
or Aimee Fisher or Boris Yeltsin's Daughter
or her finance's sixteen year old beer drunk brother
With his braided goatee and his whole life like a
Thunder cloud right in front of him.

This is not a generational thing
You don't even have to know who Richard Nixon was
To be a victim of his ugly Nazi experiments.

He has poisoned our water for ever
Nixon will be remembered as a classic case
Of a smart man ****ting in his own nest
But he also **** in our nest and that was a crime
That history will burn on his memory as a brand

By disgracing and degrading the presidency of the United States
By fleeing the White House like a diseased cur
Richard Nixon broke the heart of the American dream

The rotten apple that spoiled the whole basket...like Tony Blair did for Britain?

[modwiz]

Yes Flash, I do mean the Higher Self, the authentic Self. The ego self is generally self serving. Mothers generally always protect their young, because their babies are part of themselves, not separate. Actually, all in my world is part of me and not separate. My animals, plants, systems, vehicles are part of my vibration. How I nurture, care for, maintain, comes under my sphere of influence. I nurture and inspire my family and friends by sharing with them my insights and experience. I do not control them in any way, I observe and enjoy the creative difference in all others and that's inspirational for me. At the moment my friends and some family are really brainstorming the ideas and ideals of holistic farming so ideas and project ideas are flying thick and fast.

I have no experience and no desire to be in a totally close and shared community. It would just not work for me. I'm far too private, independent and solitary for that. But I do enjoy interacting, sharing, swapping, trading goods and services with family and friends. We do it all the time and it's nothing formal and has no set rules. I like the idea of small partnerships with shared profit as in one partner perhaps supplying the finance and the other the work for a shared profit. My husband has done thIs for years and enabled many young farmers to end up owning ther own farms. My family and friends will ideally share in my extended farm in a way that their interests and creativity will enhance their income and job satisfaction. Accommadation in a high country hobbit house is one idea being pursued. Horse trekking another one.

I have far more privacy, in my tent in my community than I ever did in my own house with a wife. I live where socializing or privacy is a sovereign choice. One has to experience it to understand the wholesomeness of it. Concepts of it are will-o-wisps of the mind.

That being said, I am unsure if my experience of living in an ongoing seasonal community, that has lasted for 30 years will weigh against the opinions of those who have not actually lived it. I will wait to see if further contributions from me are really welcome. Us hermits often do not mix, or play well with others. So we send ourselves to our room. LOL :p

[SKAWF]

Yes Flash, I do mean the Higher Self, the authentic Self. The ego self is generally self serving. Mothers generally always protect their young, because their babies are part of themselves, not separate. Actually, all in my world is part of me and not separate. My animals, plants, systems, vehicles are part of my vibration. How I nurture, care for, maintain, comes under my sphere of influence. I nurture and inspire my family and friends by sharing with them my insights and experience. I do not control them in any way, I observe and enjoy the creative difference in all others and that's inspirational for me. At the moment my friends and some family are really brainstorming the ideas and ideals of holistic farming so ideas and project ideas are flying thick and fast.

I have no experience and no desire to be in a totally close and shared community. It would just not work for me. I'm far too private, independent and solitary for that. But I do enjoy interacting, sharing, swapping, trading goods and services with family and friends. We do it all the time and it's nothing formal and has no set rules. I like the idea of small partnerships with shared profit as in one partner perhaps supplying the finance and the other the work for a shared profit. My husband has done thIs for years and enabled many young farmers to end up owning ther own farms. My family and friends will ideally share in my extended farm in a way that their interests and creativity will enhance their income and job satisfaction. Accommadation in a high country hobbit house is one idea being pursued. Horse trekking another one.

I have far more privacy, in my tent in my community than I ever did in my own house with a wife. I live where socializing or privacy is sovereign choice. One has to experience it to understand the wholesomeness of it. Concepts of it are will-o-wisps of the mind.

That being said, I am unsure if my experience of living in an ongoing seasonal community, that has lasted for 30 years will weigh against the opinions of those who have not actually lived it. I will wait to see if further contributions from me are really welcome. Us hermits often do not mix, or play well with others. So we send ourselves to our room. LOL :p

i have a similar disposition.
i'm happier in my own company, than i am when i'm around others
but on the other side....
i really do appreciate the people that i consider to be my friends.

we havnt spoke or communicated much,
and we are capable of creating a bit of friction between ourselves

but i appreciate you mod..... because you are unique.

the things you write come from your own perspective.
and not the result of some meme, or programmed mass belief.

i didnt feel the need or anything....
but i'm happy that ive said this to you.

cheers

[modwiz]

I have far more privacy, in my tent in my community than I ever did in my own house with a wife. I live where socializing or privacy is sovereign choice. One has to experience it to understand the wholesomeness of it. Concepts of it are will-o-wisps of the mind.

That being said, I am unsure if my experience of living in an ongoing seasonal community, that has lasted for 30 years will weigh against the opinions of those who have not actually lived it. I will wait to see if further contributions from me are really welcome. Us hermits often do not mix, or play well with others. So we send ourselves to our room. LOL :p

i have a similar disposition.
i'm happier in my own company, than i am when i'm around others
but on the other side....
i really do appreciate the people that i consider to be my friends.

we havnt spoke or communicated much,
and we are capable of creating a bit of friction between ourselves

but i appreciate you mod..... because you are unique.

the things you write come from your own perspective.
and not the result of some meme, or programmed mass belief.

i didnt feel the need or anything....
but i'm happy that ive said this to you.

cheers

In my community I am very well liked. Loved even. People respect my need for privacy. A little dialogue with me goes a long way. I have a healthy sense of humor and laughter fills my dialogue often. Ask Fred S. They also know I work on/with people all day long and further respect my dedication to my craft by taking the time out to renew myself for another day. Many wear themselves thin with constant socializing and little time for reflection. They show up for their jobs frayed and less than prepared to give their best. Society and community benefits from people being their best and not frazzled from constant stimulation and little re-creation of self.

Thank you for the kind words.

[modwiz]

For some reason when i think of "community" i cant help but think of people being dependent upon another person(s) which seems to always end in control issues...

What i can envision are; self sufficient/reliant people who can live in close proximity of each other. You make your own decisions and ask help of others if you need it.

All of life as we see it would refute this premise. Imagine the cells of your body or your organs adapting this attitude. Of course that would be an impossibility. We would not have bodies with the vision you propose

[Flash]

Body cells are codependent on one another. Which is fine because in codependency, every cell specific needs has to be respected as well if you want the ensemble to work.

I think you have the best of communities Modwiz. And yes, renewal when constantly working on or with people is essential. I often do not want to socialise at night either. First because I need to refresh myself, second because I need to repair for replenish for the following day. My time alone is respected because I have a large enough house and we are only two in it, and my daughter has the same needs. So she understand very well. And I do too, she won't hesitate to tell me to bug off is she needs to, because she knows this is acceptable to me and respected.

[ThePythonicCow]

Would we title a thread "atom vs molecule", or "molecule vs cell", or "cell vs tissue", or "tissue vs organ", or ...

I think not.

Each layer of self-organizing structure is essential for the layer(s) above, but the well being of a higher layer is not solely dependent on the quality of layers below, nor competitive with such.

As humans, we are both individuals, responsible for the well being ourselves, and participants in larger communities, sharing in the manifesting of their well being.

The levels interact both ways. Healthier communities support healthier individuals, and vice versa.

But each level each has its own logic as well, the essence of which can only be understood on its own terms, even as no level can violate the essential principles of other levels.

[modwiz]

Body cells are codependent on one another. Which is fine because in codependency, every cell specific needs has to be respected as well if you want the ensemble to work.

I think you have the best of communities Modwiz. And yes, renewal when constantly working on or with people is essential. I often do not want to socialise at night either. First because I need to refresh myself, second because I need to repair for replenish for the following day. My time alone is respected because I have a large enough house and we are only two in it, and my daughter has the same needs. So she understand very well. And I do too, she won't hesitate to tell me to bug off is she needs to, because she knows this is acceptable to me and respected.

It is a healthy and reasonable co-dependency though and not the clingy underdeveloped emotional neediness that typifies many relationships. It sounds like you have a good set up in your home and good mental health practices. IMO.

[modwiz]

Would we title a thread "atom vs molecule", or "molecule vs cell", or "cell vs tissue", or "tissue vs organ", or ...

I think not.

Each layer of self-organizing structure is essential for the layer(s) above, but the well being of a higher layer is not solely dependent on the quality of layers below, nor competitive with such.

As humans, we are both individuals, responsible for the well being ourselves, and participants in larger communities, sharing in the manifesting of their well being.

The levels interact both ways. Healthier communities support healthier individuals, and vice versa.

But each level each has its own logic as well, the essence of which can only be understood on its own terms, even as no level can violate the essential principles of other levels.

I agree with you completely and have mentioned in a post what I thought is a less than ideal thread heading, but am proceeding as seems fit to me. This thread does seem destined for the dust bin for lack of interest and participation. It is apparently a topic outside of the general interest.

So be it, if it is.

[Taurean]

I think you may have to wait until people start having to co-ordinate food production and supply.

Maybe when people start feeling hungry then there will be sufficient motivation to self organise in to communal effort.

My biggest concern right now is that 90% of the food consumed in the UK is imported.

Even during WWII 60% of our food was imported and we stuggled with a rationing system. Yet there was a massive effort to increase home grown, which created a certain unity amongst the people.

[Carmen]

Mod wiz and SKAWF, you guys sound very much like me. I like to mingle sometimes and I'm not anti social, but my alone time is important and I certainly do not 'need' people around me! Most of my mates are the same. I do not have needy people as friends, or not close friends. A community of Independant people, coming together at times to share ideas, break bread, sing, dance and drink some wine, that suits me fine.

[Anchor]

I like to mingle sometimes and I'm not anti social, but my alone time is important and I certainly do not 'need' people around me! Most of my mates are the same. I do not have needy people as friends, or not close friends. A community of Independant people, coming together at times to share ideas, break bread, sing, dance and drink some wine, that suits me fine.

Listen up - Carmen has defined heaven on Earth !

We recognize the need for space, and space to be different, but also recognize the nice things about having other people around too.

I nearly have this - all I need is to quit working in a city during the week, and people to stop learning to fly small fixed wing aircraft over my farm and I am set :)

[Carmody]

When a community , after a long settling time..reaches a population level where strangers can perpetually exist, meaning too many people to have a small basic aspect of understanding of who someone is on sight..that is the time the manipulators can walk in and manipulate the fear aspect of not knowing. They can get between people and interrupt for their own purposes, which will be cross or against that of the group. The point where that really begins to take off and exist as a solid aspect which may not be recoverable, is suspected to be around the 10,000 population mark. (isolated group, ie no towns nearby, thus the isolation is real) The smaller the group, the easier any societal error can be repaired, and be less likely to rear up in the first place.

Under duress, even bigger isolated groups can band together and fix community issues. The most current example of that, is the isolated community of Iceland.

Note that this type of consideration is written, IIRC, on the Georgia Guidestones?

[modwiz]

When a community , after a long settling time..reaches a population level where strangers can perpetually exist, meaning too many people to have a small basic aspect of understanding of who someone is on sight..that is the time the manipulators can walk in and manipulate the fear aspect of not knowing. They can get between people and interrupt for their own purposes, which will be cross or against that of the group. The point where that really begins to take off and exist as a solid aspect which may not be recoverable, is suspected to be around the 10,000 population mark. (isolated group, ie no towns nearby, thus the isolation is real) The smaller the group, the easier any societal error can be repaired, and be less likely to rear up in the first place.

Under duress, even bigger isolated groups can band together and fix community issues. The most current example of that, is the isolated community of Iceland.

Note that this type of consideration is written, IIRC, on the Georgia Guidestones?

A very welcome addition to this conversation, Carmody.

[amandapoet]

Alright, I finally read through the posts and can now comment....

Anytime I have to describe myself on a profile etc. I refer to myself as an advocate for self, family, and community. Now this is a gross generalization of my opinion regarding this discussion.

When I say advocate, I mean empower and take ownership for your life. How many times do we see people just give their lives away being a victim to circumstance??

My name in Latin means worthy of love, and I have struggled during my 30 some years with actually believing that. So much of the destructive behaviors of humanity are the direct result of people not truly knowing the value of their life...we are programmed to discern our self-worth on the external conditions and judgements surrounding us. So many people are completely dependent on those external influencesthat without them they would view themselves as worthless.

Now let's take the person who is aware, knowing their life belongs to only them and that the actions they choose in their life also belong to them and those actions have the capability to affect the lives of others...this level of awareness would make performing actions for self gratification at the cost of another individual more difficult for most people. One who can love themself unconditionally as we all are worthy of being loved would know the same value would apply to every other human beging and you would value the lives of others as you value yourself.

Again it is late...and I really need to work on communicating this more consisely. In simple terms when we apply Mazlov's pyramid of needs to a community of individuals who have achieved the highest level the collective of enlightened selves raise the whole community..

Typing on my phone's and deleriousness is interfering with what I really wanted to convey...try again tomorrow...sorry if tips...will edit layer, lol

Blessings and good night /morning ;)
Amanda

[Carmen]

Maybe the kind of community that forms in a natural way from people awakening is where we are all heading. Independant, but in tune with others of like mind, forming a natural community of Self sufficiency. No rules, as the rules are self generated from our own Inner Authority, our own sense of self responsibility.

A shared vision of wholeness which encompasses all systems synegestically working together.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I think there is a confusion here over semantics which is muddling the issue. Some are speaking of community in regards to society, in how we may best function and progress in a cohesive, cooperative civilization.

Others speak in regards to spiritual unity. Which is a slightly different ball game.

For the former Ulli said it best for me:
What makes a healthy society is a _system_ which allows sufficient freedom to its individuals for them to express their inherent talents while at the same time having a leadership that can manage and develop infrastructures that provide education, health, security, communication and transportation. I would add a couple of things though: to do all that 'with complete transparency', whilst providing an opportunity for all members of society to oversee, even contribute to the process.

For the latter, in regards to spiritual unity, to firstly recognise that every organism, every consciousness, is merely a subdivision of Source/God – a biological extension of a universal constant that you, along with all-that-is, is an equal part. Knowing this dissolves the many ego-distortions that created division in the first place. Then comes self-love, which Carmen described so beautifully. Self-love in its purest spiritual sense is the beginning of all-love. And true unity.

Ideally we'd all like to see social and spiritual unity go hand in hand.

[13th Warrior]

For some reason when i think of "community" i cant help but think of people being dependent upon another person(s) which seems to always end in control issues...

What i can envision are; self sufficient/reliant people who can live in close proximity of each other. You make your own decisions and ask help of others if you need it.

All of life as we see it would refute this premise. Imagine the cells of your body or your organs adapting this attitude. Of course that would be an impossibility. We would not have bodies with the vision you propose

I understand your point if you're considering your community model based upon the biology of the human body based around the concept of biological systems being interdependent.

In this case all i can say is; my body's function is self reliant and has no dependence of your body; unless i seek to interact with you in a mode of healing.

[centreoflight]

Beloveds,

for about 10 years now I am dreaming to live in a community and I know that I will one day. Many call me a dreamer, but I am not the only one.

What I realized is that communities don't work when there is hierarchy involved. Of course on the outside it looks good when people are gathered around a guru, but the wake up call comes when the guru dies. Usually the main disciples are creating their own communities and mostly are in conflict with each other, because their different interpretations of the masters words.

Love is the base of all; when we are loving we always want to be of service.

My suggestion how to manage a community:
1) Self love and acceptance. Self responsibility (Thank you again Carmen)
2) Common vision of the founders about what to create
3) New members are are only able to join if 100 % of the existing members agree.
4) In a first meeting a coordinator gets elected and that person is responsible for one season. It could also be a group of elders (accepted by all) which are coordinating the activities.
5) An agreement between the members about the different duties. Agreement which is possible to change anytime.
6) Instant conflict resolution. Humbleness is a necessary quality of the members. We all do mistakes and by admitting them we open up to wisdom.
7) Stable relationships. We learned from the 60s that free sex does not work at this point in our evolution.

This are my points, I am looking forward to hear from other dreamers....

Blessings
George

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Some practical 3D questions here.

If farmland is available for a tiny house or trailer, does anyone expect the current owner(s) to make a love donation of property to potential community members?

Or do the potential community members live in a tent through the cold winter, hot summer, dealing with bugs and snakes?

If a community building(s) already exist, then rent (barter) may be workable, but I am thinking about a situation with no existing structures, just farmland.

Does everyone share electricity? Solar equipment is very expensive.

I'm sure others have solved some of these issues. I'd like to hear how it was done. Does the community still exist?

[Arrowwind]

. The common holistic has a hole in it. Health is about the whole, and not the hole. .

I like that... and I may have to run with it at another time on other threads..
It is expounding exactly the hammer I have with 'holistic nursing' ... a pet peeve of mine.
Words can be soooo revealing.

[13th Warrior]

Some practical 3D questions here.

If farmland is available for a tiny house or trailer, does anyone expect the current owner(s) to make a love donation of property to potential community members?

Or do the potential community members live in a tent through the cold winter, hot summer, dealing with bugs and snakes?

If a community building(s) already exist, then rent (barter) may be workable, but I am thinking about a situation with no existing structures, just farmland.

Does everyone share electricity? Solar equipment is very expensive.

I'm sure others have solved some of these issues. I'd like to hear how it was done. Does the community still exist?

I think the individual should be responsible for a certain portion if not all of their food requirements and a single house hold doesn't require a lot of acreage to grow enough food for their needs. Smaller, scattered food plots have less impact upon the ecosystem then large corporate farms. We all do not like the same foods and soil type can be very different from location to location, this impacts the kind of foods that can be grown even on adjacent plots. I may be able to grow tomatoes very well, you may be able to grow beets better. If you like tomatoes and i like beets there shouldn't be a problem trading...

[noxon medem]

I"ve Heard this concept some where before Reaver.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U0crhth_g9E


This OR That , Allways false .
( so many shades of grey ..).

..
-

[Carmen]

My idea of community living, which is also my experience is that each family owns their own land. Otherwise there is dependency. Maybe initially an owner with land makes available land for future ownership. This is what my husband does. He goes into a working partnership with someone with skills or potential skills and they work toward owning the property. This is on a larger scale and is a straight business project. It works very well though and enables people who would have no possibility of owning their own farm to realise their dream.

My idea is on a much smaller scale but it kinda involves the overlapping of skills in a particular area. As I've mentioned on my holistic farming thread, I am planning and implementing mob grazing on my farm. I hope to involve one of my daughters in this, but that may or may not happen. At the moment she is too bloody untidy and that would drive me bananas!! The property would also lend itself to tourism. A couple of cottages for people to stay in. These could be built high up on the property to take in the great views. Another daughter and son-in -law have experience of tourism and catering. This type of business interests them. Another friend who lives next door is interested in horse trekking on the property. My barn is set up for events and the place would make a great rustic wedding venue! The possibilities are endless. At the same time my friends and family are all on their particularly spiritual quest and self sufficiency quest so we are all on the same page there, at different levels.

But with all this, most of us do own, or will own,our own place, or our own particular component within the whole. We share the same vision but we are also independent in our field. This is what makes it work or will keep it working. It has to have abundance and prosperity to work and that still involves money. We swap and share tools and equipment all the time, and produce, but there has to be profitable endeavour also, meaning it has to make money. This should be reinvested back into the whole venture (the vision) to further enhance or make possible someone else's ideas or dream. Brainstorming within the group would be a regular occurrence.

[13th Warrior]

I have conflicting views on ownership but, ultimately i believe the premise is a good one to work from. Ownership tends to instill greater care taking of those things in possession.

[Carmen]

To me, there is no greater model of community living than that set out in the Ringing Cedar series of books. It is a model from Russia that has spread around the world. It is based on each family owning a hectare of land (two point five acres) in a community of like minded others on their own hectare. The movement has a wonderful magazine called 'The Space of Love'
I have the book series and have read them at least twice. Pre communist, pre religion and pre Tzar Russia, was a very different place. A wonderful environment of intelligent advanced beings.

When the architecture, clothing and goods used by ancient people's is very ornate and fine it indicates an advanced culture where daily living flows well and people have time and inclination to artistic endeavours. Simplistic base culture indicates mere survival and dog eat dog mentality. Of course in some cultures with fine ornate architecture and clothing it was supported by a slave subculture. Seemingly this was not the case in the ancient Russian culture. Not sure when this period was. Must have been before Genghis Khan invaded. The Mongols ruled Russia for about 200 years!!

[13th Warrior]

To me, there is no greater model of community living than that set out in the Ringing Cedar series of books. It is a model from Russia that has spread around the world. It is based on each family owning a hectare of land (two point five acres) in a community of like minded others on their own hectare. The movement has a wonderful magazine called 'The Space of Love'
I have the book series and have read them at least twice. Pre communist, pre religion and pre Tzar Russia, was a very different place. A wonderful environment of intelligent advanced beings.

I am less conflicted with "like minded" communities; i do not subscribe to this criteria

Nature favors diversity so, so do I...

Like minded can lead to "group think" which is undesirable for many reasons.

[Carmen]

Yes, natures model is an excellent touchstone for community living. The holistic farming practice brings back diversity to any degree of monoculture.time spent observing nature, observing animal behaviour, it's rhythms and cycles is time well spent. Mankind thinks he can control nature but we can only work with her. She will have the last say and man is humbled by her power.

[spiritguide]

For some reason when i think of "community" i cant help but think of people being dependent upon another person(s) which seems to always end in control issues...

What i can envision are; self sufficient/reliant people who can live in close proximity of each other. You make your own decisions and ask help of others if you need it.

Here is a link to an article that puts it on the line. http://www.infowars.com/decentralize-or-die/

Here is an excerpt.....

Decentralize Or Die!

Brandon Smith
Alt-Market
September 21, 2012

The single most often broached argument that Liberty Movement writers, analysts, and strategists are confronted with by skeptics alongside well meaning but cynical newcomers is the assertion that while we happen to be very effective at pointing out the dangers of globalism and centralization, we rarely seem to take the initiative to offer “solutions” to the problem. This same argument is also used by establishment shills as a way to distract the public’s attentions from the very real despotic enterprises of their elitist employers. It is an often used disinformation tactic; demand that those who expose the truth of a criminal enterprise also offer an all encompassing solution to the complex dilemma. When the truth-tellers cannot present a neatly packaged miracle on a gold plated platter, the shills claim that their exposures of wrongdoing are meaningless, because they can do nothing about it anyway. And thus, the cycle continues…

This article goes to the core of what individual corrective action is and how to apply it.

More dots.... IMHO

[write4change]

Okay, I have read all these again and many of you have given me something to work with, like spirit guide's link above. Breaking back down into small independent communities is what I see for the future if FE does not appear on the horizon.

Modwiz, since I was gone for a year I may have missed it, but I have no idea of what your community really does or how it really functions. You always make it seem to be part of the mists of avalon.

The one long term community I have know that worked was Murietta Hot Springs which began in the late 60s and lasted 30+ years when it was sold as a resort and I am told everyone cashed out with at least a million dollars.

In the 60s, 36 people nought 50 acres with natural hot springs that had been used by Native Americans for centuries. At the time, it had a few handmade stone huts which were used initially for living and then permanent food storage. There was a small core leadership that fronted the money and the vision. The vision was living off the grid as much as possible, living vegan and growing all their own food, and providing a healthy retreat for people to chill out. I went there many times over the years.

They kept the ownership to 36 which is the number of the Lamo Vad (not sure if that is right, having a brain fart). I intend to use that number also with 58 acres. The first ten years no one was allowed to have children--to distracting and no time. They are hand building with stone and simple cement mixers--mud bath spas and personal houses, trails, and growing stuff, and chickens and goats. Serving food their way was very time consuming expecially three meals a day. Theirs was the best vegan food I have eaten. The first time I was told you could not gain weight on vegan--my first time I gained 5 lbs. Homemade cheese and butter and bread along--OMG.

Originally they only opened to the public in the winter--too hot in the summer. And their first groups turned out to be old rich people who had no where they really wanted to spend the holidays. Originally it was all word of mouth and they were always filled. Originally, there were no planned programs. The only rules, no phones, no TVs. Generally, you got up meditated, went for a walk and then breakfast. In the beginning, various people just volunterred to lead or share whatever they knew.

As time passed and the vision developed, they took in people to live a walk your talk life. Anyone joining brought something to the plate both money and skills. To join you presented a paper to the group about how you saw yourself fitting it and adding to their vision and purpose. Over time meditators, messeuers (sp), physical therapists, counselors, chiefs, carpenters, etc. all came on board until they had their 36. Some left earlier and we're replaced.

They eventurally built small cottages for themsleves and a kind of monastic kind of motel with not a lot of luxury but private baths. All money was put into the pot and paid all expenses. After expenses, the amount of money given to you as an individual monthly was based on the percentage that you held in what was like the endowment fund that began the place. The original core continually divided up their shares until the 36 and they were paid the fair market value for the shares they gave up. All of this was always up front and transparent. Anyone joining after the first core, had to have unanimous approval to become essentially a life time member. There was a provisional period of one year and if it did not work out--that person's money was returned and they were paid for their time.

In time they added air conditioning and began year round retreats with programs and providing for people like Dwayne Dyer's groups etc. When they sold out each of the 36 received a cool million that I know of to live in their retirement.

[write4change]

I forgot legally they functioned as an LLC partnership of 36 and they were never incorporated.

[write4change]

Oh, yes, one of the people who was there from the beginning was a lawyer and he made sure they were never threatened with law suits etc. He also cooked and loved it but knew his law and the fact he could step out at any time and do the legal hussel meant they never had to. If I had known what I know now I would have finished my law degree and practiced this way. One of the people I will be looking for is a lawyer who does not really want to be one and has some out of the box cross skills.

[modwiz]

Modwiz, since I was gone for a year I may have missed it, but I have no idea of what your community really does or how it really functions. You always make it seem to be part of the mists of avalon.

. When they sold out each of the 36 received a cool million that I know of to live in their retirement.

I will experiment with being even mistier. A vacation might do me, and those who tire of me, some good.

My parting comment will be that selling out is not an accomplishment. If money trumps quality of life, then maybe something was wrong with the quality. Should we clean up the planet and see if we can get some aliens to buy it? We all get a "cool" million. Not so cool in my book.

Feel free to snark away, Jai. Invoking my name will not conjure me up like some lower astral entity.

:bolt::bolt:

[write4change]

I don't think they considered it selling out. They had modeled what they believed; they just got too old to serve as they had. I am not even sure they sought it out. They were offered a deal; they considered if for a year and decided by vote to do it. This allowed each to reinvent themselves and follow another dream. Small communities are able to form and disform or more or immigrant. The earth is always in constant flux. Part of why I wrote this to illustrate the only group of communal living that I knew personally that sustained 30plus years. All the others lasted for the most part 2 or 3. I think even Ken Kesey lasted less than a decade and he had substantial money to start but no real vision.

I actually thought people discussing various kinds of communities would give us more concrete facts as to how people worked at it. There is no right or wrong only different.

[spiritwind]

I used to attend some meetings with folks who wanted to see if they could come to some consensus about what an intentional community would look like and they never did reach any kind of agreement. Strangely, to me anyway, the biggest issues seemed to be over things like alcohol use and how personal property was handled. I have a handful of good likeminded friends who I could definitely see myself living in community with but I also know it’s not always as easy to live with/around even people you love as one might think. I had a very good friend move in with me some time ago and thought we’d have just a wonderful time together. At the time I was smoking some herb on occasion to help me sleep and found out that even though she had claimed to have no judgment about it, it was a BIG deal to her but she never really was able to express herself honestly about it in a way that allowed for us to clear the air. I’m not a health/diet fanatic (at least I don’t think so) but I do try to eat a lot of fresh foods, veggies, fruits etc. generally only eat fish/chicken on occasion but I have a strong background in nutrition so I guess I can come off sounding like a text book which can be irritating to some. She, on the other hand, had learned as a young child to hate vegetables and even most fruit so mostly ate lots of meat, cheese, sweets, soda etc. (I can’t really say anything about the chocolate cause I have a weakness for it too). As much as I wanted to be completely non-judgmental I was constantly battling myself over this. She got really winded just walking up a small flight of stairs and yet claimed her health was better than mine (which, who knows, she may live longer than me and how do you define health?). I still love her dearly and know that these were just petty issues but we don’t really even talk anymore because we weren’t ever able to clear the air (although I will probably try again). I have been happily in a relationship for 12 years now after a succession of dysfunctional failed relationships. I actually thought I would never try again. One of the reasons I think it works for us is that we seem to be able to adapt to change and have an incredible capacity for forgiveness. To just decide to let things go and move on and a healthy respect for each other’s need for independence. I think those qualities could probably be assets in any relationship. But conflict resolution is of primary importance. We also never leave things hanging for very long. So I would love to hear more about what people have tried that actually does work. I know it can be done. It sounds like Modwiz has some positive experiences to share. So far I mostly know about what doesn’t work. One last thing, my husband and I managed mobile home parks together for years and one of the other things I discovered is you have to have some way to call out the outright trouble makers and call them on their you know what. We were trying to have community meetings at one of the parks we managed and there was one couple that were purposefully causing conflict and dissension and, unfortunately, because I was the manager it created kind of a conflict of interest for me because I couldn’t say “hey, these people haven’t paid their rent in 3 months and they’re probably being evicted anytime now so don’t listen to them”. They did end up getting evicted but not before they pretty much ran off everyone who really had something positive to offer. Anyway, it’s a topic I’m really interested in. I think the human dynamics part is probably more crucial than how much money you can contribute or property you have.

[write4change]

The problems of personality in an intentional community wind up being the end all and be all. I never got to the intentional part because I was so fixated then years ago on developing the physical plant first. At one point, I had ten employees. I found that sharing my vision while employing people hoping to get them to buy into the vision was not a good idea. For example, one of the things that I thought I was at the time was in the position to give second chances.

Someone wrote here that intentional communities attract dysfunctional people. My experience in the 60s would ditto that. My experience in the 90s is similar but different. I picked up minimum wage people and then gave them many perks that were way beyond minimum wage. What I learned is that if someone worked for a kennel for minimum wage for ten years cleaning dog poop, they have no ability to invision doing anything else for themselves much less a community. If you let these people have use of a communal car, they will not check the oil. Everything is easy come, easy go. It is not theirs, and it being the community means nothing to them.

Thus, the intentional communities that work have big skills and money filters. The first question is what do you bring to the plate. If the answer is nothing but I want/need to live here. You have nothing to work with. At the time, I was holding myself out to the community as Jewish but because I had so much housing, these Four Square Evangelical mega churches would hear about me and the property and send all their loosers there. Can I hang out for the night in exchange for working etc? Only they become someone else to watch--a big property has a lot of stuff. Tools are expensive etc. I had to go and talk to the ministers and say do not send anyone else down to my property for any reason.

Those communities that work have a vision or purpose that people want to pursue and a consensus is created about how to best serve the vision. If you are doing eco tourism--an artist may be a wonderful person with a number limit of how many the community can support, they may not make the cut. But someone who weaves and is a textile artist may have a place.

The idea that we are not in communities now is ludicrious. Even if we are out in the boonies with tents, we now all want to be connected to the net and see the big picture. Self sustaining for a small group is possible but big groups become very expensive unless you are really going underground and believe the catastropic is about to happen. From what I have read surviving that is a crap shoot. What you are is being with people who share your vision and encourage you to be the best you can be in this setting that you have chosen.

Each group will have its own signature based on its own needs. One of the ways ancient wisdom was perserved for so long is that small groups or monasteries in remote places saw that as their mission and they were self sustaining for centuries doing just that. I just watched a documentary on the upper Mustang area of Nepal. They have been self sustaining for centuries but are now falling apart because they glaciers are almost totally gone and they no longer have sufficient water. Only the old and the determined are staying. Loosing the numbers of monks they are used to leaves them vulnerable. People will steal the monks treasures if they think they can get away with it.

Finding people who will embrace the sum is more valuable than the separate parts is a major filter from the beginning. I think only sovereign adults can understand the profoundity of that statement in the first place. A half adult plus a half of adult does not make a whole person ever. So you have to have integrated adults to have an integrated community. The more broken people you have the more disfunctional the community. Saving the self may eventually mean consolidating with like minded people within chaos. This is how I experience this country. We are one paycheck away from bankruptcy in all the big cities. Small towns in a Mad Max scenerio may or may not be viable. But small towns definitely reflect their leadership for good or ill. The trick seems to be that diversity and its tolerance brings a stable community. Rigid status quo is slow spiraling death.

[13th Warrior]

For some reason when i think of "community" i cant help but think of people being dependent upon another person(s) which seems to always end in control issues...

What i can envision are; self sufficient/reliant people who can live in close proximity of each other. You make your own decisions and ask help of others if you need it.

Here is a link to an article that puts it on the line. http://www.infowars.com/decentralize-or-die/

Here is an excerpt.....

Decentralize Or Die!

Brandon Smith
Alt-Market
September 21, 2012

The single most often broached argument that Liberty Movement writers, analysts, and strategists are confronted with by skeptics alongside well meaning but cynical newcomers is the assertion that while we happen to be very effective at pointing out the dangers of globalism and centralization, we rarely seem to take the initiative to offer “solutions” to the problem. This same argument is also used by establishment shills as a way to distract the public’s attentions from the very real despotic enterprises of their elitist employers. It is an often used disinformation tactic; demand that those who expose the truth of a criminal enterprise also offer an all encompassing solution to the complex dilemma. When the truth-tellers cannot present a neatly packaged miracle on a gold plated platter, the shills claim that their exposures of wrongdoing are meaningless, because they can do nothing about it anyway. And thus, the cycle continues…

This article goes to the core of what individual corrective action is and how to apply it.

More dots.... IMHO

Thanks for the link, i hadn't read this article before you'd posted it; it's on par with my intuition on the importance of self sufficiency and a healthy community structure.

Here's two paragraphs from the body of the article that to me sum it up well:


One can form or be a part of a community that does not require him to cast aside his individualism or sovereignty. “Community” does NOT necessarily denote “communism” as long as it respects the pursuit of independence by its members. There is such a thing as voluntary compassion, charity, mutual aid, and industry. Societies have in the past functioned quite well without overt government administration and mandatory participation. The suggestion that mankind cannot survive without being told how by some faceless bureaucracy is absurd, not to mention historically inaccurate.

Decentralization and voluntary community go hand in hand. In order to defeat a collectivist system which seeks to dissolve individual liberties and focus social power, we must build communities outside of the mainstream that foster individual liberty and disperse social power. This begins with personal sustainability, or what some of us call “prepping”. Each and every Liberty Movement proponent can and should distance himself from the globalist construct. This takes time, and planning. It requires us to learn useful skills, to produce many of our own goods, and to eventually form legitimate face-to-face networks which localize businesses and services.