Faith and Will

[Anchor]

A paradox exists where faith is required to reckon with and make progress into the unknown and at the same time one must have the will to take those steps.

Without faith the steps may not be taken - the survival instinct prevents it.

Without the will to take the steps the feet shall surely not move.

How then does one nurture faith?

How does one nurture the strength of will?

Must they be done together?

Are they co-dependent and inter-related within a larger framework of a love/fear polarity ?

The answer to this paradox lies behind a locked door.

The key to that door is silence.

[Mark]

Faith is the evidence of things unseen.

Ive always loved that quote.

Theres someplace in the bible that talks about having the faith of a mustard seed.

The kind of faith that moves mountains is not what most people would call faith. Not really. What most people call faith, in their minds, is really hope. Hope framed by a bunch of doubt.

Thats not faith.

Faith is what we have each time we take a breath and their is air to breath.

Even though we cant see it we absolutely know it is there.

Its what we have when we take a step and there is ground beneath our feet. And it is solid.

Even though can see it we still know it is there.

Faith is certain knowledge. Not a hypothesis. Not a theory. Not a supposition, possibility or potentiality.

It is knowing there are OOBES because youve had one. Knowing there are ghosts because youve seen one. Knowing there is an overriding consciousness, source of love and eternal bliss because youve basked in it.

Then all of the questioners and their questions, doubts and itnorance can be discounted at the personal level even as they continue to cause a ruckus among non-experiencers.


But even for them, it is only a matter of time, measured in days, years decades and centuries, before they can move mountains too. Look at a mustard seed and understand the meaning of that parable.

[Jenci]

How then does one nurture faith?

How does one nurture the strength of will?



One does neither.

How about one throws faith and will out altogether.....discards them as beliefs and attachments of the illusory self.

What remains?


Jeanette

[Beren]

How then does one nurture faith?

How does one nurture the strength of will?



One does neither.

How about one throws faith and will out altogether.....discards them as beliefs and attachments of the illusory self.

What remains?


Jeanette

Absolute stillness.

[Anchor]

How then does one nurture faith?

How does one nurture the strength of will?



One does neither.

How about one throws faith and will out altogether.....discards them as beliefs and attachments of the illusory self.

What remains?

To reach that state requires will and faith.

One attempts to describe the intermediate steps, not the goal.

Its easier for me to do this at the moment as I languish in the luxury of knowing my illusory self and reserve the option to escape.

We are here to do a job are we not?

[Tony]

"The answer to this paradox lies behind a locked door."
"The key to that door is silence."


...then fearlessly open the door and step through.

[markpierre]

The only places I recognize faith anymore are in the places I'm most inclined to doubt.
I doubt my own experiences sometimes as delusional, I doubt information that was useful at the time is any use to me now.

There's no doubt about what's outside me now, it's even more meaningless and ridiculous than I'd ever dreamed.

I guess I have faith that whatever has driven me through everything it has, has 'me' as it's subject,
and i don't think it's possible for the little nearsighted contrary me to disappoint it.
I'm counting entirely on that. That's faith right?

Will is a tangled idea. The will, or the force that rules every move, to a human self identity is survival and comfort.
Even post human, identity furnishes it's own afterlife.

My 'will' as I identify it, is some times to stay in bed. I respect that act of will. All of the power in the universe
is used for that.
But something often wills for things I wouldn't willingly choose that I couldn't find my way home without.
I couldn't be stronger than that.

[Anchor]

That is very interesting.

I don't at this time see faith as a driver, more an enabler. It is more like the setting aside of obstacles.

Will I do see as the driver, and the two together enable movement in a direction that without these two would not be possible because other factors would be able to impede me.

Of the two, I see faith as the one containing the greater paradox.

To act in faith is to be able to choose without knowing all the facts.

We dont know all the facts but we must choose.

Faith seems to matter when you have things that are unknown, yet there we must go.

[markpierre]

That is very interesting.

I don't at this time see faith as a driver, more an enabler. It is more like the setting aside of obstacles.

Will I do see as the driver, and the two together enable movement in a direction that without these two would not be possible because other factors would be able to impede me.

Of the two, I see faith as the one containing the greater paradox.

To act in faith is to be able to choose without knowing all the facts.

We dont know all the facts but we must choose.

Faith seems to matter when you have things that are unknown, yet there we must go.

I have no faith in that definition.

[Jenci]

To reach that state requires will and faith.

One attempts to describe the intermediate steps, not the goal.

The absolute stillness is there before anything distorts it. It's the most simple (uncomplicated) of things yet as seekers we complicate it by adding in things that we need or we need to do, all of which become obstacles to obscure the very thing we are seeking.

Even the idea that there are intermediate steps is a belief and a concept which becomes an obstacle which will have to be removed. Why put the obstacle there in the first place?

Now in real life terms of the seeker, however simple this is, it's not easy. However, it was only people pointing out that the very tools that I thought I needed were the obstacles keeping me from where I was going, that I was able to realise the simplicity.

Right now, personally I am wielding a huge sword cutting out all the obstacles which I have built around me...or is that a huge scythe, I quite like that image, lol, and that is naturally going to reflect in my writing but I also know that everyone is where they need to be right now, all of it is perfect so if people need faith and will, that's fine by me.....it's all good, John :)






We are here to do a job are we not?

No, I am not here to do any job....


Jeanette

[Anchor]

However, it was only people pointing out that the very tools that I thought I needed were the obstacles keeping me from where I was going, that I was able to realise the simplicity.

Did you not develop faith in yourself in order to be able to do this (essentially discernment) ? What you have done is a marvelous thing by the way and I like the way you write about it so effectively.


Right now, personally I am wielding a huge sword cutting out all the obstacles which I have built around me...or is that a huge scythe, I quite like that image, lol, and that is naturally going to reflect in my writing but I also know that everyone is where they need to be right now, all of it is perfect so if people need faith and will, that's fine by me.....it's all good, John :)

The conundrum shows its head.

I realize that you are quite capable of avoiding any intellectual obstacles that may be put in your way, and I would not want to act as an obstacle.

That said...

How can you wield a sword? You have made a decision. You act. Will is thereby evident. This is my working assumption.

I suspect that you favor the notion that you flow from action to action, choices are not consciously made in time, but they are impelled by something - what is that?

Divine will?

In that way of thinking, it may be an affront to break it all down into intellectually digestible components. However, doing so it has helped me, it may help others, but there is always the risk of reductio ad-absurdum.

I fancy that I hear once again your thought that I am over-thinking this. You are probably right as usual, but it is fun.


No, I am not here to do any job....

But you are doing it so well :)

I am from outside of time, projected into time. An unremembered choice that I know for sure I took.

I took it for a reason.

It could very possibly not be the same reason you did the same.

(Also off topic and I should have been more tightly focused and not mentioned it.)

[Beren]

How then does one nurture faith?

How does one nurture the strength of will?



One does neither.

How about one throws faith and will out altogether.....discards them as beliefs and attachments of the illusory self.

What remains?

To reach that state requires will and faith.

One attempts to describe the intermediate steps, not the goal.

Its easier for me to do this at the moment as I languish in the luxury of knowing my illusory self and reserve the option to escape.

We are here to do a job are we not?


It's quite funny actually John, as more people with spiritual insights are sharing their light the more I see the connection that I saw long ago studying scriptures.
As long as I can remember I was wondering of what Jesus or God religious people were talking about since I don't know them... Jesus is not Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant or anyone's.

Jesus spoke about this path of a soul who comes from ignorance to the light and what this means.
And no wonder why many didn't "get" him.

Faith and will are essential tools in soul's carriage while going through life.
Eventually each soul stop needing tolls anymore...

[Anchor]

It's quite funny actually John, as more people with spiritual insights are sharing their light the more I see the connection that I saw long ago studying scriptures.
As long as I can remember I was wondering of what Jesus or God religious people were talking about since I don't know them... Jesus is not Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant or anyone's.

Jesus spoke about this path of a soul who comes from ignorance to the light and what this means.
And no wonder why many didn't "get" him.

Faith and will are essential tools in soul's carriage while going through life.
Eventually each soul stop needing tolls anymore...

Thanks.

Well, I'm certainly a fan of Jesus, and he had a thing or two to say about faith.

(Rahkyt has already visited this idea above, but...)

KJV Mat 17:20 - And Jesus said to them, Because of your unbelief: for truly I say to you, If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you.

The idea for this thread arose out of something I was thinking about before I posted this morning (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?49171-what-is-your-3D-job-career-and-will-these-jobs-things-change-in-the-near-future&p=558781&viewfull=1#post558781).

Quoting myself from that other thread talking about manifesting things:



In performing conscious manifestation you need deployment of will and faith in good measure - and also a certain amount of practiced mental discipline - which is why I keep going on about meditation as that is the best way I know to acquire the mental "visioning" skills.

Its not easy, until it is... at which point you may find you don't actually do much of it - because along the way, you may well gain a more deep appreciation of why the mountain is where it is, and even if you have faith the size of a grain of mustard and could move it easily, you don't.

John..

[Jenci]

Did you not develop faith in yourself in order to be able to do this (essentially discernment) ? What you have done is a marvelous thing by the way and I like the way you write about it so effectively.

This process started for me at the point of surrender. When things starting happening for me and I saw the results of that surrender, I have, from time to time, developed faith and in developing faith I have gone from surrender (letting go) to faith (clinging)

Every time I have done that (and I still do somewhat) it's got very painful and I have had to go back to surrender.





Right now, personally I am wielding a huge sword cutting out all the obstacles which I have built around me...or is that a huge scythe, I quite like that image, lol, and that is naturally going to reflect in my writing but I also know that everyone is where they need to be right now, all of it is perfect so if people need faith and will, that's fine by me.....it's all good, John :)

The conundrum shows its head.

I realize that you are quite capable of avoiding any intellectual obstacles that may be put in your way, and I would not want to act as an obstacle.

That said...

How can you wield a sword? You have made a decision. You act. Will is thereby evident. This is my working assumption.

The sword being wielded is a metaphor but rather than implying action it is more non-action. It is more 'not paying attention to' or 'ignoring' rather than taking action to remove the obstacles.

For example a thought may arise that I have moved to a new stage of this awakening process and in that some faith or trust may appear in the process because it is working. This thought arises, I see this thought as nothing more than a story I am telling myself about "me" and I just shift my attention away from it back onto what is aware of it.

The reason for sword metaphor is that it shows that I have to be disciplined and brutal in not letting my attention get drawn to any of these stories about "me"....and also anotherbob told me to wield the sword and I thought it was a cool way of describing it. :lol:

I suppose you could say that even being disciplined and brutal is me using my will. I would say it is more Thy will, not mine although that can be misleading because it can bring up concepts about what "Thy" is.




I suspect that you favor the notion that you flow from action to action, choices are not consciously made in time, but they are impelled by something - what is that?

Divine will?

Any time I get into thinking what impels anything I get caught up into a story of me and my choices or whatever and get drawn back into time. Really, it just spontaneously happens and the more I am 'out of time' and the story of me, I see things spontaneously happening right out of nothing.




In that way of thinking, it may be an affront to break it all down into intellectually digestible components. However, doing so it has helped me, it may help others, but there is always the risk of reductio ad-absurdum.

I fancy that I hear once again your thought that I am over-thinking this. You are probably right as usual, but it is fun.

Yes, but I know you are having fun ;)

Of course along the way there is probably going to be much reading, talking, studying, following, practising where a mutlitude of explanations and techniques will need to be investigated by the seeker but the obstacle to our seeking is our mind and simple one liners have a tremendous power to cut through all the mind stuff.

If you want to point someone to what they are seeking, then they needed to be pointed away from their mind. Too much information and words busies the mind and the mind cannot understand this stuff because it lies beyond its own understanding

Jeanette

[OBwan]

Faith = Knowing

Faith begins with choosing to believe is something that is beyond one’s belief system. The path to knowing (faith) on any topic has an emotional journey. I agree with the phase, “The key to that door is silence.”

When we silence the “Monkey Brain” other thoughts come into our lives. These thoughts move us along the emotional journey to another fork in the road.


“Two roads diverged in a wood and I took the one less traveled by.”
– Robert Frost –

In my reality, “The one less traveled” is the one that allows you to see if your fears are illusions.


Nurture = Choosing “The road less traveled”

Rather than using the word “Nurture”, the word “Choosing” works for me. Metaphorically speaking, we are all on the “Highway of Life.” We exit the freeway at times for rest and nourishment. Our bodies (The vehicle) can only travel finite amounts of time in this time-space reality.

The “Course in Miracles” teaches that only two thought types exist: Fear and Love. All emotional definitions are a subset of these two types. Frustration, pessimism, and anger fall under the heading of Fear. Joy, optimism, patience, and gratitude are in the Love category. For me, “The road less traveled” is the Love category.


Power = Peace

For me, I have found that peace is more powerful (strength) than the opposite. Rather than “Will”, the thought process of choosing love works for me.

[Tarka the Duck]

Faith is not, for me, a matter of unquestioning loyalty. To have faith without questioning is to conform mindlessly to dogma. So I see doubt as equally essential as faith on our journey. They are not mutually exclusive, as has often been portrayed by the religious controllers.

It seems our journey often begins with a question. That is the will to move forward and break the inertia. Just to start to ask, to look, to examine, to enquire inwardly, to consider upsetting the status quo takes courage and effort - and doubt is often the trigger and impetus. Without this questioning, we would grind to a halt. But this doubt is not self-doubt, or disbelief…and it's not an endless spiral of intellectual philosophising either. It's more of an acknowledgement.

Faith is a kind of trust, arising from the testing, the examination, the doubting. Trust in ourselves, and in the process of the journey. It is the doubt that opens us and gives us the courage to challenge ourselves and face our fears, and through this often uncomfortable approach, confidence/faith arises naturally.

No doubt…no faith
No faith…no doubt

Faith is an essential part of our practice. And so is doubt. A delicate equilibrium.

[Mark]

Excuse me, Anchor, for not addressing your questions in my first response. As a prequel, these statements are made in the context of someone along the path and as an operational discussion, taking into account the process-oriented nature of time-dependent experiential living. In other words, I'm speaking from the lower, material perspective, not the higher, eternal perspective where everything is already known and nothing need be learned.

1) Faith is nurtured by learning to rest in the Absolute. Stilling the mind.

Doing so causes the questioning to cease. Gets rid of history and the future, cultivates Presence. Presence is active, living consciousness totally immersed within the Now moment. Presence, being in the Now, reveals the illusion of Past and Future, making all questions meaningless when it comes to the immediate concerns of the moment. Faith arises when one is totally Present. Am I fine now? Is the world still here? Is there air for me to breath? A ground for me to sit on?

These questions are meaningless when they are happening. As all questions and their answers are meaningless in the context of immersing one's self within the experiential cornucopia of living viscerally.

Faith is not a question for a mustard seed. For a bird. For a spider. These souls do amazing things with no question as to how or why. They just do.

The evidence of things unseen is certain knowledge of the Absolute. Certain knowledge of the Absolute only occurs when questioning ceases. in the Now. No cognition, no need to do anything. No need to become, just to be.

In this way, Faith is implicit in Life itself. In existence itself. As so much depends upon this evidence (bodily processes, astronomical processes, etc.), it is actually moot to even question it or attempt to define it beyond the broadest scope of understanding. There were questions even the Buddha would not answer.

2. The capacity to nurture strength of will is dependent upon the connection of intent to the flow of the Absolute.

Emotion and desire give rise to intent expressed by the application of will towards manifestation upon the material plane. This interplay is the pendulum swing between light and dark, between oppositions, yin and yang, extremes of karmic involvement that result in cause and effect repercussions and continuous incarnation within the structure of the Dharmic wheel.

The closer one's intent is to expressing the will of the Absolute the stronger that expression of will will be.

Strength of will is also cultivated by stillness. Connecting with the eternal. Ending the conflict of the bicameral mind. Becoming singular of purpose not in the human sense of becoming obsessed with a particular goal or outcome that serves the ego-state but by becoming the conduit of a higher energetic source. The ego-state then becomes in microcosm, a perfect reflection of the super-ego (higher self, avataric being, etc.) state in macrocosm.

A potentiality that can only find expression if the tendencies of the mind to wander are conquered, presence in the Now is fostered and the higher connection to the Divine is cultivated.

3. It is a feedback loop. It can be said that they occur simultaneously. But, within time and through space, it is a process of letting go, as Jenci said. Of allowing the clarity that exists beneath to rise through the confusion of a lifetime of learning to become the primary expression of a personality. As the connection between the person and the Absolute becomes clearer, strength of will becomes stronger, more focused.

4. Alll polarities are expressions of the dichotomous nature of physical reality. The individual that cultivates the Absolute goes beyond those limitations and thusly is no longer limited by them.

It is often said that God is Love. Which gives rise to the retort, then what of hate? What of fear? How can such exist within an all-pervasive continuum of endless and eternal Love? Love is the ocean, which is acceptance. Like the World Ocean, which accepts all of humanity's refuse while being the bounty that continues to give, to support our very essence and being and from whence we once emerged in some form or another. All of our pain, our agony, our separation anxiety expressed physical as plastics, as human waste, nuclear waste. Our separation from each other, the world, the cosmos, expressed as tons of trash dumped into an oceanic abyss, out of sight, out of mind.

An illusion. A dangerous one.

There is no separation. Thus, there is no fear. There is no hate. There is no refuse. There is no trash. There is always and only Love. There is always and only the World Ocean. Even those expressing the extremes of disfunction and maladjustment, the angry, the murderous, the envious, the hateful, are reacting to that all-encompassing field of love within which we all exist. Rejection and densification, self-imposed separation and further devolution, returning to Source/the Absolute by way of a different route, yet a valid choice and path all the same.

[Selene]

Rahkyt, of your many eloquent and insightful posts at Avalon, this is surely one of your finest.

Absolutely beautiful.

Many thanks,

Selene

[Sebastion]

Simply magnificent, Rahkyt........



Excuse me, Anchor, for not addressing your questions in my first response. As a prequel, these statements are made in the context of someone along the path and as an operational discussion, taking into account the process-oriented nature of time-dependent experiential living. In other words, I'm speaking from the lower, material perspective, not the higher, eternal perspective where everything is already known and nothing need be learned.

1) Faith is nurtured by learning to rest in the Absolute. Stilling the mind.

Doing so causes the questioning to cease. Gets rid of history and the future, cultivates Presence. Presence is active, living consciousness totally immersed within the Now moment. Presence, being in the Now, reveals the illusion of Past and Future, making all questions meaningless when it comes to the immediate concerns of the moment. Faith arises when one is totally Present. Am I fine now? Is the world still here? Is there air for me to breath? A ground for me to sit on?

These questions are meaningless when they are happening. As all questions and their answers are meaningless in the context of immersing one's self within the experiential cornucopia of living viscerally.

Faith is not a question for a mustard seed. For a bird. For a spider. These souls do amazing things with no question as to how or why. They just do.

The evidence of things unseen is certain knowledge of the Absolute. Certain knowledge of the Absolute only occurs when questioning ceases. in the Now. No cognition, no need to do anything. No need to become, just to be.

In this way, Faith is implicit in Life itself. In existence itself. As so much depends upon this evidence (bodily processes, astronomical processes, etc.), it is actually moot to even question it or attempt to define it beyond the broadest scope of understanding. There were questions even the Buddha would not answer.

2. The capacity to nurture strength of will is dependent upon the connection of intent to the flow of the Absolute.

Emotion and desire give rise to intent expressed by the application of will towards manifestation upon the material plane. This interplay is the pendulum swing between light and dark, between oppositions, yin and yang, extremes of karmic involvement that result in cause and effect repercussions and continuous incarnation within the structure of the Dharmic wheel.

The closer one's intent is to expressing the will of the Absolute the stronger that expression of will will be.

Strength of will is also cultivated by stillness. Connecting with the eternal. Ending the conflict of the bicameral mind. Becoming singular of purpose not in the human sense of becoming obsessed with a particular goal or outcome that serves the ego-state but by becoming the conduit of a higher energetic source. The ego-state then becomes in microcosm, a perfect reflection of the super-ego (higher self, avataric being, etc.) state in macrocosm.

A potentiality that can only find expression if the tendencies of the mind to wander are conquered, presence in the Now is fostered and the higher connection to the Divine is cultivated.

3. It is a feedback loop. It can be said that they occur simultaneously. But, within time and through space, it is a process of letting go, as Jenci said. Of allowing the clarity that exists beneath to rise through the confusion of a lifetime of learning to become the primary expression of a personality. As the connection between the person and the Absolute becomes clearer, strength of will becomes stronger, more focused.

4. Alll polarities are expressions of the dichotomous nature of physical reality. The individual that cultivates the Absolute goes beyond those limitations and thusly is no longer limited by them.

It is often said that God is Love. Which gives rise to the retort, then what of hate? What of fear? How can such exist within an all-pervasive continuum of endless and eternal Love? Love is the ocean, which is acceptance. Like the World Ocean, which accepts all of humanity's refuse while being the bounty that continues to give, to support our very essence and being and from whence we once emerged in some form or another. All of our pain, our agony, our separation anxiety expressed physical as plastics, as human waste, nuclear waste. Our separation from each other, the world, the cosmos, expressed as tons of trash dumped into an oceanic abyss, out of sight, out of mind.

An illusion. A dangerous one.

There is no separation. Thus, there is no fear. There is no hate. There is no refuse. There is no trash. There is always and only Love. There is always and only the World Ocean. Even those expressing the extremes of disfunction and maladjustment, the angry, the murderous, the envious, the hateful, are reacting to that all-encompassing field of love within which we all exist. Rejection and densification, self-imposed separation and further devolution, returning to Source/the Absolute by way of a different route, yet a valid choice and path all the same.

[sirdipswitch]

Faith gives us the will to act... on something we hope... is true. Nothing more.

Knowing... eliminates... faith and hope.

Why does one waste so many words, in attempting to explane something simple.

[Anchor]

...
1. Faith is nurtured by learning to rest in the Absolute. Stilling the mind.
...
2. The capacity to nurture strength of will is dependent upon the connection of intent to the flow of the Absolute.
...
3. It is a feedback loop. It can be said that they occur simultaneously. But, within time and through space, it is a process of letting go, as Jenci said. Of allowing the clarity that exists beneath to rise through the confusion of a lifetime of learning to become the primary expression of a personality. As the connection between the person and the Absolute becomes clearer, strength of will becomes stronger, more focused.
...
4. Alll polarities are expressions of the dichotomous nature of physical reality. The individual that cultivates the Absolute goes beyond those limitations and thusly is no longer limited by them.
...


Wow! Stellar post! You really nailed that one mate.

Thanks so much.

Once again Avalon brings some clarity to a subject that is difficult to express.

John..

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Faith gives us the will to act... on something we hope... is true. Nothing more.

Knowing... eliminates... faith and hope.

Why does one waste so many words, in attempting to explane something simple.

Because perspectives.

[GloriousPoetry]

The color of faith doesn't have a name, its inner gaze shines on an amazing grace.....perhaps grace is the name of the game here...?

[Anchor]

The color of faith doesn't have a name, its inner gaze shines on an amazing grace.....perhaps grace is the name of the game here...?

I was considering Jeanette's post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?50159-Faith-and-Will&p=558994&viewfull=1#post558994) above and I was coming to a similar conclusion.

I have bubbling around in my head an interesting and competing basket of thoughts on this topic (and the Love one)...


Love/Thanksgiving/Praise of the creator
Grace
Faith
Will
Power
Freewill
Responsibility
Identity/Ego
Service (and to whom service is rendered)
Incarnation
Time and no-Time
Harmony
Manifestion
Creation
Creator


Sometimes I just chuck them up in the air and let them fall. Pick one or two and see where it takes me next.

[Reaver]

I don't see how those two ideas could be a Paradox, if anything I see them as two ideas which are different from each other, but deeply interrelated (perhaps there lays the Paradox).

It is true that the word Faith has been seriously prostituted, especially by organized religion. Irrational faith, the kind of faith which is demanded by insane priests can only result is superstition and ignorance. On the other hand I think there's a kind of faith which to a degree is based on Knowledge and self-confidence. Think of a chemist who is going to perform an experiment which he has done many times before. He has the know-how and the experience which reinforces his faith in the success of his experiment. If he lost this faith, this confidence all of a sudden, then it's very probable that he would make a mess of the experiment despite having replicated it many times before.

Will, in my view, is the force which sparks action or movement. One could say that its the invisible and primary force behind many human activities, I also think there are degrees to this Force. A very superficial Will could be seen in a professional runner who is tired, yet his Will (his potential desire to move) is strong enough to keep him running fast.

Will and Faith can be seen together within the human being, in such as simple action as the movement of the body. When you move your body you are exercising certain amounts of Will and Faith. You must have a desire to move (in this particular case it seems that this underlying idea of movement flashes through the Unconscious and Conscious) and the confidence, the unshakable Faith that your body is capable of moving.

Years ago I saw a T.V. program where this guy used NLP on other people. One of the things he did was to override people's Faith and Will so that they were convinced of their incapacity to take their hands away from a wall. This is a superficial example, but I guess you could take the core idea of breaking people's Faith and Will to project it on modern society and their apparent incapacity to better themselves.

Now I feel that Faith and Will are pretty much core elements of every single human activity, from trivial stuff to the innermost creative and uplifting activity. The problem is that this kind of Magical Thinking is being wiped out from people's awareness and they take every single activity they do for granted, so it's likely that many would see these two ideas as stupid. Not to mention that these two Forces can act in very subtle ways at times, you won't have a big display every single time and yet... they can still be very powerful.

As I said, I think Faith and Will are deeply interrelated. You can't hope to accomplish anything if you lack any of those two. What use is Faith without the underlying impulse of Will, to do something, then it would seem to me that Faith would be an astray force which can't be anchored to some idea-space. What use is Will without Faith? without the conviction and self-confidence in your own capacity to do something, to create something, to think something? without this Faith, only demoralization can follow.

But there are also times when Faith and Will are required to venture into the unknown, where the familiarity of Knowledge disappears and you can only stare at the Abyss, the moment where you have to make the choice, go back or take a leap of Faith, Will being the Force which plunges you into the Abyss of the Unknown.

The Hero who ventures to Hades must posses and must be able to channel large amounts of Will and Faith in order to survive and pass the numerous trials on his journey so that he can rise like the Phoenix: wiser, stronger, more intelligent. How would the Human Being reach divinity without these two Divine Forces?

The truth is that this matter goes deeper than mere Faith and Will, just as a human being is more than a Heart or a Brain... the Human Being is a Totality and so are the creative impulses within himself, like Will and Faith. A Human Being should use this creative forces as a Totality. Faith and Will should be integrated with Forces like Knowledge, Intuition, Love, Compassion, Imagination, etc.

There may be Forces which are more powerful, more elementary than others, but at the end of the day, they should be used as a Totality, as a system which creates constant feedback between its own foundations. I feel that the idea is to refine these Forces throughout the Individual Journey.The aim I suspect, is to become a better version of Ourselves every time we take a step.

[DeDukshyn]

Faith gives us the will to act... on something we hope... is true. Nothing more.

Knowing... eliminates... faith and hope.

Why does one waste so many words, in attempting to explane something simple.

I don't see faith and hope as related at all. I see hope as allowing a state of hopelessness -- because hope is never needed unless a state or feeling of hopelessness is the starting point.
I see faith as moving past the hopelessness into a conviction that the hopelessness is unwarranted and unreasonable altogether - despite not "knowing"

I see them as opposites.

My 2 cents ;)

[Anchor]

DeDukshyn,

I also see them unrelated.

If I act in faith, it is with inner certainty of the correctness of my choice - even if I don't know the outcome.

Hope seems to be a plea for a benevolent outcome. No harm in that, but its grist to the mill, not the deciding factor.

This is probably down to semantics and what we each mean by faith - which as Reaver appeared to me to point out above is a word over-loaded with meaning.

I have been giving this faith and will some more thought....

I see faith as a mandatory life lesson.

Furthermore, I wonder if it is even possible to "wake-up" without it.

The more and more I see of life, the more I see some people experiencing fiercer and fiercer catalyst - sometimes to the brink of death and beyond before they are forced, kicking and screaming by the machinations and grace of their higher-selves to take a step in faith and faith alone.

I think I was one of the lucky ones because when I did it, it was just "for science" - an inner experiment. I was between 18-24 - jaded, life unexplained, science not providing the answers - took a leap of faith into the unknown realms and then never really looked back or considered a return to the "rational" world.

Do I feel lost in that illusion? No! Do I look lost ;) That would be for others to judge - I care not.

[Delight]

Simply magnificent, Rahkyt........

Excuse me, Anchor, for not addressing your questions in my first response. As a prequel, these statements are made in the context of someone along the path and as an operational discussion, taking into account the process-oriented nature of time-dependent experiential living. In other words, I'm speaking from the lower, material perspective, not the higher, eternal perspective where everything is already known and nothing need be learned.

This was a magnificent post.
The discussion of faith and will is excellent too Anchor thanks.

In the last year, I have been certain that I want to understand how to behave differently in the world. Yes, I really think that this is the only reason to be here...to experience the experiment of living in the constraints. Through relinquishing the grasp of insisting that little me be the one in "charge", I am having a new kind of relationship to my "life". By knowing that One who is aware of me is in charge, I am able to let much more of feeling benevolent about everything be what i do.

The will to focus on the Presence of the One in charge takes effort. To focus on thoughts that reflect what will feel good is quite a challenge. That is a kind of willingness that would be impossible EXCEPT .....I now have had experience enough of the miracles that One can actually deliver. These miracles show me that i can be faithful to the focus and willing to be free of my own previous plan of control against malice.

To a certain extent, i have forgotten to be paranoid now. The will to protect and defend (against expected harm) has shifted to the will to be glad of grace. This is a step through the mirror that can't be rushed...All is well is a phrase I also have taken in to use as my faithful mantra. Maggie

[Jenci]

I see faith as a mandatory life lesson.

Furthermore, I wonder if it is even possible to "wake-up" without it.


Yes it is possible to wake up without it and I would even say that faith itself can actually prevent the waking up.




The more and more I see of life, the more I see some people experiencing fiercer and fiercer catalyst - sometimes to the brink of death and beyond before they are forced, kicking and screaming by the machinations and grace of their higher-selves to take a step in faith and faith alone.
I agree that this is happening but the fact that they are 'forced, kicking and screaming' is suggesting it is nothing to do with will which was the point I was making earlier.


Sorry, I am being awkward again ;)


Jeanette

[kreagle]

Faith is the evidence of things unseen.

Ive always loved that quote.

Theres someplace in the bible that talks about having the faith of a mustard seed.

The kind of faith that moves mountains is not what most people would call faith. Not really. What most people call faith, in their minds, is really hope. Hope framed by a bunch of doubt.

Thats not faith.

Faith is what we have each time we take a breath and their is air to breath.

Even though we cant see it we absolutely know it is there.

Its what we have when we take a step and there is ground beneath our feet. And it is solid.

Even though can see it we still know it is there.

Faith is certain knowledge. Not a hypothesis. Not a theory. Not a supposition, possibility or potentiality.

It is knowing there are OOBES because youve had one. Knowing there are ghosts because youve seen one. Knowing there is an overriding consciousness, source of love and eternal bliss because youve basked in it.

Then all of the questioners and their questions, doubts and itnorance can be discounted at the personal level even as they continue to cause a ruckus among non-experiencers.


But even for them, it is only a matter of time, measured in days, years decades and centuries, before they can move mountains too. Look at a mustard seed and understand the meaning of that parable.


Rahkyt,

I, too, like a great deal of what you have to say, here. I would like to 'point out' an 'angle' that most fail to recognize.


Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


While 'most' are captivated by the descriptive term of faith being,....'the evidence of things not seen',......I'm afraid that little, to no, attention is being paid to the first descriptive part of the Scripture which tells us that,.......'faith is the substance!!'

Until 'mankind' starts viewing, and treating, faith as a 'genuine substance', I'm afraid there are going to be a lot of people failing to fully realize and achieve what God has in store for them.

To your credit, you accurately point this concept out, with your example of 'breathing air' that we can't see, but that we all know it's there. My only problem with this is that I'm really not sure how many, of those same people, are really, truthfully, understanding what the Bible is telling us about 'substance' and it's relationship to 'faith!'

Herein lies the problem. If we wave our hand through 'open air', and our 'eyes are open', then we do not expect to 'hit anything',.....right? Under this simple exercise, we fully expect to come up 'empty-handed', don't we? After all, we have our 'eyes wide open' and we've all clearly seen that 'nothing is there',....right?

Conversely,....can anyone, here, imagine, (just for a moment), how you would feel, or respond, if you were to complete this 'same exercise', but 'this time', to your amazement, you actually 'feel a tangible object striking against your hand?' As your eyes 'widen with astonishment', you begin to 'feel this tangible object'. which has now become 'substance'.You can't 'see' it,...but you can 'sure feel it!' What would you do? How would you respond? Would you become a 'believer',.....or would you 'scream and run for the hills?'

Is anyone 'beginning to see', (understand), why we humans have so much problems with this kind of 'Biblical faith?'

Faith has 'substance', folks! By definition,....'substance has mass and occupies space!!' If you and I walk up to 'each other' and 'extend a hand for a handshake',.....I fully 'expect to feel your hand as both of our hands unite!' I do not expect to come up 'empty handed!'

Let me share, with you, a very interesting Passage that should 'illustrate this concept further',.......


Matthew 14:24-31 (KJV)

24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.

25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.

28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?


As 'Creator, Savior, and Restorator',......Jesus took His 'Creative Word', rebuked His Creation, (the 'elements and the boisterous sea'), He 'over-rode' their properties, and walked 'triumphantly over them, and upon them!' He simply 'walked upon His Word!'


He wants His Creation, (us), to be 'triumphant, also!',....over the many 'obstacles we face!'


If we will 'only learn' to follow in the 'steps of our Master', and 'stand on His Word,.....put 'faith' in His Word,.....and start treating 'faith like it has substance',.....we will 'all' begin to find that we are 'walking on top of situations/problems' that were 'formerly sinking us!'

While there are 'those' who believe that there was 'water underneath Peter's feet',....as he walked, ( for awhile), towards Jesus,.....I will submit to 'each of you' that this is a 'complete misunderstanding and interpretation of the Scriptures!'

You, nor I, ( nor Peter), can 'walk on water',.....it's an 'impossibility!'

But,.....we can, ( and Peter did),.....walk on 'faith' in His Word,.....and 'if' we 'just happen to be',.....over water,.....or......any other potential 'sinking problem/situation',....we will 'rise to the top and be victorious in Jesus' name!'

Between the soles of Peter's feet and that boisterous sea was a 'thin layer of faith',.....'faith with substance',......'real faith',.....'tangible faith',.....'you could feel it',.....'he knew he could rely upon it',......and consequently 'it held him up as he got out of the boat to walk to Jesus!' It was only 'after he doubted and took his eyes off of Jesus and viewed the storm', that the 'substance of faith' began to 'dissipate' causing him to sink and to call out to be saved.

Perhaps it would be wise to 'reach out and grab hold of faith', my friends,....and whatever you do,....don't be surprised and 'run away' when 'something tangible' winds up in your hands!


Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

[Anchor]

Sorry, I am being awkward again ;)

Your welcome. Very.

I'm willing to bet we are talking about exactly the same things, but have semantic differences.

I'll have another go from a different perspective and we might be able to see if this is true or not.



Furthermore, I wonder if it is even possible to "wake-up" without it.
Yes it is possible to wake up without it and I would even say that faith itself can actually prevent the waking up.

This says to me that we mean subtly different things by faith and the context in which we are using the word. So I will clarify as best I can how I mean the word.

My context in which faith matters at all, is when one is making a choice which the totality of the consequences of that choice is unknown.

Normally one assembles as much data as one can in order to make an informed choice. No faith required, just plain old reasoning.

What happens if you dont have all the information, but you still need to make a choice and act accordingly...

Context A) Maybe you can rely on external data to help. You read something, or someone told you something about this scenario before and you decide you accept that data, you could say you are taking it on faith. I wonder if this is the context you refer to in which faith can impede you? External data, perhaps unwisely trusted and untested against ones discriminatory powers; blind faith? However, without the faith, you wont act. But if the data was wrong or you were badly advised - the outcome may not be the best.

Context B) Now lets consider the same scenario, but one makes a choice based on what one has come to know as inner knowing; but with no conventional evidential based data, or experience to back this up, I'd say that was faith too. When that dialogue starts with your inner world, with your "higher self", you never quite know if its real to start with. One tests it out. Gains experience. Refines the skill. Soon one may choose using data gained from that inner conversation with your higher self, your holy spirit connection and then you may start to act unquestioningly in faith in that source of guidance. There is always a point in this process when you are acting in faith.

That's a big step, because there comes a time when you have to override some pretty basic inhibitions and fears, and let them go, because you are comfortable following your highest knowing, you have faith in the process and knowing that all will be well - and you may end up doing something that looks positively foolhardy, but it was ok for you really because you were acting on information that you had faith in - and your higher-self looks out for you!

Am I making sense?



The more and more I see of life, the more I see some people experiencing fiercer and fiercer catalyst - sometimes to the brink of death and beyond before they are forced, kicking and screaming by the machinations and grace of their higher-selves to take a step in faith and faith alone.
I agree that this is happening but the fact that they are 'forced, kicking and screaming' is suggesting it is nothing to do with will which was the point I was making earlier.

Forced kicking and screaming to take a step, but without will, that step wont be taken.

No act can happen without will.

Perhaps we are splitting hairs here. The faith side of this debate is more interesting :)

[PurpleLama]

Unfortunately, in my view, the word faith has been hopelessly conflated with the word belief, what the word faith points to is that which is most occult.

Faith is simply, I would attempt to convey, a practical, working knowledge of the underlying mechanics/physics of the reality and the relation of the consciousness' interface with this.

It is not a phenomena of mind, although one may use mind as a tool within the interface, from the perspective of mind nothing of this may be grasped and used.

Understanding one is a field of coherent, self aware energy, and being aware of the ocean of energy it inhabits, and the way these interact, this is the substance of what is to be but is not yet or once was, what faith is can clearly see the is and the isn't, so knows how to be in the right place at the right time.

The instant we mix this with a belief, which is a desire made into it's own construct, an idea, then we lose it altogether, for faith is nothing about what you want, but what actually is.

I am attempting to put into words some small part of my own inquiry, and the experience I've had as a result. The intellect just clams up in the face of it, and I pat it on the head and assure it that all is well, very well, in fact, when the mind can relax and not have to be so busy with all it's mental stuff. Faith is a part of my everyday, but still I try to keep the balance and not lose the importance of the most mundane, everyday things. I've gone full circle and come to find that there is more value in appreciating what's around me than finding somethin more profound, more esoteric, than I did yesterday.

As for the other question, what is will besides controlling energy?

[another bob]

We’re always being given tests, to see what our reaction will be. For example, there is that dubious moment when potato peelings happen to jam the kitchen sink’s garbage disposal unit, creating in the process a most disagreeable sound, usually accompanied by a sudden sense of intestinal distress.

My Darling smiled encouragingly at me and boldly proclaimed,

"I have perfect faith it will fix right up!"

Based on the immediate evidence, I was sincerely doubtful, recognizing to some extent the wry nature of hopeful interpretations on plumbing perception, even when viewed from an exalted state, and so my faith was weak at best. The claims that faith can move mountains always seemed somewhat exaggerated, though I can certainly appreciate the concept.

Judiciously, I let her faith be the case, and so it was -- the clog was cleared and soon small mountains of peels were being mechanically digested and sorted off into their next incarnation, and we proceeded to dine on some deliciously prepared peeled potatoes forthwith.

It’s nice when things work out that way, the test is when they don’t.

[Mark]

TY Selene, Sebastian, Anchor.

Delight, what you're describing is expressed in the tradition I grew up in (Christianity) with the phrase, "Let go and let God."

When life has beaten you down enough and you get tired of fighting, it seems to be all you can do. Call it what you will, Dark Night of the Soul or the Death of the Self. It seems to be an important state in the release necessary to experience that which lies beneath and encompasses the totality of All That Is.

Kreagle, I would submit to you that, minus the Christian proselytizing, what you wrote is pretty much what I stated in my 1st post in this thread, which you quoted. Faith is certain knowledge. I used Christian parables because I generally use Buddhist ones and wanted to switch it up a bit. Glad you appreciated it and were able to extend the discussion further as a result.

Purple Lama, excellent and concise description.

All of creation is energy, able to be molded into form at the behest of the human will given its correlation to the greater Laws of Creation, which correspond to the greater Will of the Divine which can be accessed through many different paths or traditions. That energy can indeed be manipulated in order to 'walk on water', heal or perform other amazing feats. Many different languages and phrases, descriptions, words, many with slight differences but with the same underlying meaning and intent.

It is always words, so limiting, so easy to misconstrue or misunderstand, as Sirdipswitch perhaps was implying. We use so many in order to clarify meaning, yet obscurations remain.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

If eyes are but a window to the soul, then why not use them to view the universe :-)

N

[DeDukshyn]

...

I see faith as a mandatory life lesson.

Furthermore, I wonder if it is even possible to "wake-up" without it.

....

I'm going to try to chime in on this statement with my 2 cents worth. I didn't read much of this thread so other's opninions on this will not bias me -- sorry if I repeat something that someone else may have already stated.

The term "wake-up" is a generalization.

Let's assume this:

"Waking Up" = realizing that things are not what they seem -- that our "reality" is just an illusion and energy is the real currency.

"Enlightenment" = using the above realization in action -- using that concept to create a new "reality" for yourself through commitment to serving others and minding thoughts / actions.

One is the event of coming to a new realization - the other is putting that realization into guiding actions.

"Faith" has nothing to do with waking up. but everything to do with enlightenment - of course this may be exactly what you meant -- I am just making some distinctions so it can be easier to talk about.

Even though "Faith" is a noun, it is more like an action (as without an action it cannot be observed), therefore to use it, action without reason is what is required.

Some may have noticed that I say this a lot: "Be un-reasonable", "Abandon your reasons", "Your reasons define your ego", etc. I liken "Faith" to making decisions out of Love as opposed to fear. Fear always has a reason -- always. Love never has a reason - Never. (It may align with a reason - but is never dependent on one)

In fact if your "Love" is given because of a reason - you have been fooled by your ego -- love is unconditional and therefore CANNOT have ANY reasons attached -- zero, else it is not love but a "reason" driven by fear. If anyone disagrees I will gladly debate this on another thread, but not here.

Therefore acting in "Faith" is to abandon reasoning in favour of love based decision making which is un-reasonable.

One cannot utilize faith in an environment with "reasons". If reasons are ever found in the same environment as faith, as with love, it then was a "fake" faith and not even a real one.

So to answer your statement based on that breakdown, I'd say one can "wake-up" without faith, but faith is the tool that is required to bring enlightenment. Without TRUE faith, enlightenment cannot happen, as I have defined it above (to rid semantic interference from my post).

My 2 cents ;)

[DeDukshyn]

We’re always being given tests, to see what our reaction will be. For example, there is that dubious moment when potato peelings happen to jam the kitchen sink’s garbage disposal unit, creating in the process a most disagreeable sound, usually accompanied by a sudden sense of intestinal distress.

My Darling smiled encouragingly at me and boldly proclaimed,

"I have perfect faith it will fix right up!"

Based on the immediate evidence, I was sincerely doubtful, recognizing to some extent the wry nature of hopeful interpretations on plumbing perception, even when viewed from an exalted state, and so my faith was weak at best. The claims that faith can move mountains always seemed somewhat exaggerated, though I can certainly appreciate the concept.

Judiciously, I let her faith be the case, and so it was -- the clog was cleared and soon small mountains of peels were being mechanically digested and sorted off into their next incarnation, and we proceeded to dine on some deliciously prepared peeled potatoes forthwith.

It’s nice when things work out that way, the test is when they don’t.

An exact and perfect example of being "unreasonable" to have "faith" which resulted in the desired outcome ;) Thanks Bob -- this is exactly what I was talking about! It was unreasonable to think that it would clear on its own -- yet it did ;) ;)


from my sig: The State of Grace already exists. It always has. Yet most humans are blinded to it by the incessant machinations of the rational thought processes that they worship.


"machinations of the rational thought processes" = "Reasons" = "Lack of Faith"

[Nanoo Nanoo]

have faith and the will is there.