What do you think hit the Pentagon?

[Beth]

What do you think hit the pentagon?

[Operator]

Maybe you should add some more choices .... e.g. a plane AND a missile was mentioned ... also I noticed that the subject changed from 757 to plane. Perhaps it's an idea to make a distinction ...
There's also several other possibilities if you allow exotic ideas ... missile + payload container etc.

[Lost Soul]

Aeroplane. I spoke with a museum curator who was granted access to the site to collect stuff to preserve. He saw several large jet engine assemblies and other parts.

[observer]

Not to be smart here, but I think upon reflection of all the blurred images, misrepresented testimony, and confusion being promoted as probative inquiry,
and, considering "something" hit the pentagon connected to the overall Coup d'état of that particular day....

I would have to conclude that an AGENDA hit the Pentagon....

Since we are now approaching the tenth anniversary of that Coup, and the global situation has only gotten worse, why don't we all focus on how to stop the Agenda, and stop dwelling on the minutia of the spicific events along the way....

[Operator]

Aeroplane. I spoke with a museum curator who was granted access to the site to collect stuff to preserve. He saw several large jet engine assemblies and other parts.

The parts did not necessarily arrive there mounted on a plane ... Maybe someone wanted these parts to be seen ... be careful with conclusions ;)

[Operator]

Since we are now approaching the tenth anniversary of that Coup, and the global situation has only gotten worse, why don't we all focus on how to stop the Agenda, and stop dwelling on the minutia of the spicific events along the way....

You are so right ... it makes no sense to go back and forth on the WHAT did hit ....

The only possible gain we get from it is that we learn not to conclude too quickly from what is 'presented' to us.

More important is not to get hit again ...

[Fredkc]

What do you think hit the pentagon?

Approximately $1 Trillion every year, for the last 11 years, more than they deserved.

Fred

Oh! and I picked plane for reasons of human nature.
184 people who were aboard American Airlines Flight 77.

If I assume this was an inside job, I'd guess it probably wasn't planned by idiots. You could call them many other things, but not idiots. So more than likely the possibility that something might go wrong, must have come up.

If so then someone had to have considered the fact they would have to tell, at least, 500 family members their loved one had died.

Now, it's bad enough, with the doubts flying around to get all these people to stay out of the issue. I can even admit the possibility that, if it leaked out it was somehow "allowed" to happen, you might still keep them quiet either through fear, or some patriotic duty. But...

If these people ever found out, a missile/drone/whatever hit the Pentagon, and their loved ones were taken to some desolate spot and coldly executed.... I don't think you would get two, let alone 500+ to just sit quiet and take it. Not out of duty, fear, or for any amount of money.

So I doubt the planners would risk it. Just human nature stuff.

[Anchor]

I chose, missile, but that has to do, because I acutally think it was a unmanned surveillance plane flown by remote control

[Dale]

Hello, all. I'm quite sure that it was a jet, but, who can possibly know?

I don't believe it was a Boeing 757 jet, though. It was a smaller, more sleek jet; likely some type of small, navy aircraft.

Maybe I said this in an earlier comment, but I'll type it out again. I've talked to several pilots about the 9/11 attacks, and their answers were nearly the same when I brought up the Pentagon dilemma. There is no way that a hijacker, who failed at flying a Cessna, could fly a 757 low enough to knock street lamps over, long enough to take aim at a low-rise building, all at 570 miles per hour. A plane that large flying that fast at that low of an altitude would be defying physics. The lowest that 757 could get to the ground at that speed, without losing control, would be roughly 60 feet. A strong, physical draft would push the plane upward extremely fast, preventing the plane from maintaing that particular altitude and speed; all of which would be causing a great deal of instability for the inexperienced pilot, as well.

This is only the physics of the descent of Flight 77; I'm not even describing some of the support beam data issues, or the film, or even the heat produced by the engines vs. the ground.

In the past, I have given a complete 9/11 presentation to groups, and I am willing to revamp the slideshow to contain more data about Flight 77 if the Avalon Community is interested.

But, my best guess on what hit the Pentagon that morning... A jet.

[jaybee]

Thanks yaya551


I've voted...not sure.


Because 'not sure' covers all the permutations other than, the either/or choice.


For example....car bomb and/or helicicopter could go into the mix?

This news report happening as events were unfolding is very interesting, the
reported fire on the Mall....the talk of explosions and helicopters....(at 5:40)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxV2X0vwSas&feature=related


I'm going on holiday today...and I feel like I need one after just a few days
of doing internet-based research on the Pentagon 9/11 incident...
god only knows what it must feel like to spend years on it.

But it's kept a lot of genuine, intelligent people busy....eh?....;)

[I_Am]

No brainer: It was a black hole.

A black hole of lies.;)

[BMJ]

Pentagon - missile, cruise missile.

Twin towers - miltary boeing 757 itype jets.

I really don't know how there can still be any uncetainity on these facts.

Thats the reason I didn't take part in the other thread about the airliner hitting the pentagon, there is huge amount of evidence on this saying it was MISSILE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsWZHKIg3Cs

[iceni tribe]

those that think it was a plane , please show me a picture , show some evidence and not a written report from some spook or shill from ATS.

after 9 years their must be one image of this alledged plane , their quite large you know.

quite a extrodinary feat by the pilot to fly into a low level building at that speed and getting it so pricise that the grass is unscathed . really unbelievable ................REALLY

[BMJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhROd7Jt3-w&feature=related

[RAKMEiSTER]

a drone or a small single seat plane ive seen.
but my guess on it years ago was drone or cruisemissile

[Fredkc]

BMJ, and other missile voters;
1. Where are all the people?

2. That particular plane used Rolls Royce engines. While I have never seen the insides of one, I have seen the equivalent parts of the G.E. CF6 engine used on 747's and other "sister planes".

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/CF6-6_engine_cutaway.jpg

By "seen" I mean "cut on them" as a machinist, and helped develop the programs used to control computer driven machine tools to do this work. What I'm trying to say is, I know the main stator (that thing what goes round & round real fast in the middle) when I see one.

There is one in the wreckage, just inside the Pentagon in several pics.

That said, yes, you can photo-shop anything (dear god how I hate the 21st century ;)). Which means the avg. 12 yr old can add or subtract anything they like to a picture. But, once you go there, then there is absolutely no evidence for any conclusion whatsoever, and this simply becomes a mental exercise with no solution (see: Kobiyashi Maru).

Fred

[Kulapops]

Was it a Great Pyramid ??

See pyramid thread...

Now, I mean no disrespect to anyone, least of all the dead... but I totally stand alongside Fred's later paragraphs...and that is

...there is no evidence for any conclusion whatsoever...

Just how are you going to know ?

So, then... everything else is just mental gymnastics, isn't it... unless you do something really whacky, like go ask your higher self what the truth is.... and if that resonates.. well, stick with that.

As for trying to convince a single other human being of your higher truth... you can forget it.. because we all want proof, and proof is so easily forged....

So... erm... like some kind of Wile Coyote cartoon... this leaves you exiting the screen to the right, and arriving on the screen to the left, stopping suddenly and going:

MEEP MEEP !

I'm speaking metaphorically , of course.

http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2008/06/roadrunner.gif

Just keep eating the free bird seed... is all I'm saying.....

meanwhile, what's that sound ? oh yes.. it's the grains of sand that are your life making that whooshing sound again.....

(and mine too of course, cos I'm in the room wid cha !)

K

[Fredkc]

Thanks Kula (the check is in the mail ;) )
Fred


...there is no evidence for any conclusion whatsoever...

Rule 1 in any assassination plot: Kill the assassin.

If no planes hit anything, then someone murdered 3 planes worth (about 500 people) in cold blood, somewhere. And they did it without leaving one speck of evidence.

Question is, If you're that good, why stop there?

Were I this dastardly, I would have begun my plot by making damned sure that, anyone involved who could have drawn a straight line between any two 'suspicious facts', was playing Pinocle with Jimmy Hoffa, within 30 days.

[Kulapops]

Thank you Fred... do you take... American, Canadian, Mexican dollars these days... or should I just send you a bag of gold ??

Speaking of assassins... somebody sure 'did in' this little lot...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11101398

Incidentally, that little article mentions 10,000 migrants being abducted...in six months! hmm... off topic I know, but...

Thing is.. that is one giant fly in this whole ointment... if somebody 'did it'... then it ain't just one somebody... it's a group... and that's a lot of sleepless nights for somebody since 9/11....

I can't believe the human race is so efficient at anything... that nobody would squeal on a deal like that one...

Anyway.. it's fine for mental gymnastics... but let's not expect to get to the bottom of anything...

K

P.S. To look at this kind of thing in action, I'd recommend the movie "Very bad things"... To clue you in.. one of a group on a bachelor party accidentally murders the stripper...and they resolve to try and cover it up. No one needs to know...but then the hotel security happens upon them.. and he gets whacked too.... sometime later the tension of keeping a secret is starting to show on them...I think this scene shows quite dramatically how human beings can start to unwind under stress...little by little it starts to come out... Now we can also live in a universe where the men in suits have such a tight lid on things that nothing ever comes out... but then.. if that's true... what's the point in going looking for the truth in the first place, huh ?

WARNING - this is not for the squeamish and there is some swearing in context. Mods.. I understand if you need to remove this, if not appropriate to this thread - I'm not totally sure about the rules on that... Fred.. maybe you could check it out, seeing as you're here ? Thx...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfqtmIDzDog

[Operator]

There IS one thing very certain in this case ...

They do want you to believe that a 757 hit the pentagon (either for real or not). So it's not surprising that all 'presented' material will support just that.
The difference between Pentagon and Twin Towers is that there is no material 'shot' by the public. It makes the Pentagon case ideal for reinstating that
hijacked airliners were the cause of it all. Surprise, surprise ... yes they got us debating/distracted again


1. Where are all the people?

Well, 757 or not ... was anybody found and/or identified ? Sad as it is but this doesn't proof either side of the case ...

[Operator]

Oh .. by the way some bodies WERE found ... alive and well. May need some verification perhaps but alleged hijackers seem to have survived the attacks and
are walking around in their home countries. ;)

[Kulapops]

I know... wasn't that info on the loosechange video ? But then again.. how do we know that is really true ? Just because someone says it is ? Can we phone 'em up and ask em about it ??

[rhythm]

http://www.susiebrown.co.uk/world_championships/big/12_Custard_pie_champs_a.jpg

wa s it a custard pie :washing:

[Fredkc]

Well, 757 or not ... was anybody found and/or identified ? Sad as it is but this doesn't proof either side of the case ...

CAUTION: Response contains unpleasant, 'juicy' material.

Real "icky" subject, I know... but if there were planes with people in them, you wouldn't find them.

People don't do well in major airplane crashes. The fact is they basically become "liquid" in a fraction of a second.

What happens is the corrugated metal skin of the aircraft comes apart. What happens next is, all the people are "strained" through several tons of 'razor blades' at about 450 mph. Mostly what you find are their passports and their shoes.

So unfortunately, we're still stuck in the same place. The lack of people is neither evidence or the lack of it.

[Kulapops]

Hmm... I didn't know razor blades could vapourise bone though... isn't that a bit like finding Mohammed Atta's passport at WTC when no bigger particle than a dust bunny was found at the site...

Gee... just what do they make those passports out of ??

My vote is, if they build any more important buildings... they should make them out of passports...

Kind of like a house of cards... I used to know quite a good one with a roof and everything.. then you could stack em up...

[Operator]

People don't do well in major airplane crashes. The fact is they basically become "liquid" in a fraction of a second.

That's odd ... a plane crashed in Libya a couple of months ago with at least 61 dutch people on board. A team went down to Libya, it took them more than 2 months
but every one was identified, returned to family and properly burried ....

[Moemers]

Fred raises the point that no one seems to have an answer to, and the one that frustrates me the most: Where are the people?

I'm not discounting that our own government did this to us...but if they DID use a missile...where's the people?

[Operator]

Fred raises the point that no one seems to have an answer to, and the one that frustrates me the most: Where are the people?

Even without the image of people in a crash the answer is 'juicy' ... try reverse engineering ... it's not the presented material but the whacky inconsistent official explanation
that justifies considering this is a false flag operation. Try to think as a perpetrator for a moment ...

A false flag means something really bad/shocking needs to happen. So the perpetrators accept in advance they will be fully responsible for manifestation of a shocking event.
It can only be a 'false' flag if there is strong evidence pointing in another direction ...

- What they need is sufficient material to make you believe a plane was there.
- the purpose was to shock and they are prepared to do shocking things, including murdering people.
- they can't include people in the evidence because autopsy will inevitably point out they were killed otherwise.

This is a harsh exercise and you might not be able to imagine this as a 'normal' human ...
but don't forget who/what we're dealing with. Although that may already be an impossible task for lots of people.

[SPIRIT WOLF]

Aeroplane. I spoke with a museum curator who was granted access to the site to collect stuff to preserve. He saw several large jet engine assemblies and other parts.

Doubtful, have you seen the size of 757 engines?, we have pictures of the building taken within minutes of the alleged crash, these show one hole in the side of the building, no perceivable wreckage, certainly no large engines which would have made a mess of the building anyways.

[Operator]

Doubtful, have you seen the size of 757 engines?, we have pictures of the building taken within minutes of the alleged crash, these show one hole in the side of the building, no perceivable wreckage, certainly no large engines which would have made a mess of the building anyways.

Two projectiles .... one to punch a nice hole ... a 2nd one to deliver a truckload of 'wreckage-debris' ... answers to the tactics required and corroborates
with the material that was released soonest after the event. That's why all the parts of debris were relatively small ...

[SPIRIT WOLF]

exactly, IF a real 757 had hit that building you would have seen much more damage and the engines would have been seen as they would have remained relatively intact

[Deega]

Hi,

From the video I have seen, articles that I've read, I don't think that a plane (757) hit the Pentagon! If it is, it was a small one (drone type) tele-commanded from the ground or the sky (another plane or satellite).

I don't think that the highjackers were that well organized, it had to be planned for it to succeed and it did on the back of all those who died.

If we recalled the Report on Iron Mountain, amongst the recommandations were mentioned that America must be at war, the price to pay to be at peace was to high and if an event should be created to be in it, then it was!

All my blessings.

Deega

[BMJ]

Doubtful, have you seen the size of 757 engines?, we have pictures of the building taken within minutes of the alleged crash, these show one hole in the side of the building, no perceivable wreckage, certainly no large engines which would have made a mess of the building anyways.

Spot on SPIRIT WOLF, where is the wreckage, bodies & two 10 ton jet engines, (the size of a truck), where are the wing impact marks on the Pentagon?

Nothing but a whole in the wall and then a wall that collapses. Sounds like a missile to me.

http://projectcamelot.org/elizabeth_nelson_flight_93.html

[Beth]

Bump, so we can get some more votes.

[Fredkc]

Oh no !!

Not a bump!

http://fredsitelive.com/images/post/bump2.jpg

[Kulapops]

I take it it wasn't a pregnant Chad then ?

:)

Though who ever heard of Chad getting pregnant ???

I may be uninformed as usual... but does it actually matter what I think hit the pentagon ? I mean, anymore than the usual uncertainty surrounding history... maybe it was a bomb, maybe it was a missile, maybe it was a plane. The fact remains that it was the incident that kick-started the war on terrorism.

Just as the killing of Franz Ferdinand (great name for a band by the way) was cited as the justification for a war that went on to kill millions of innocents....

Was that really justified ? what were the 'real' reasons for the Great War? Was the assasination a false-flag attack? Does it matter? The elephant in the room for me is not the WHAT HAPPENED but the YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO KNOW.

How will you ever get to the bottom of this? Does it matter what other people think? All that matters is what you believe. But having a belief then sets a paradigm, a fixture that needs energy to align or defend.

So, erm.. what's the point ? We might just as well talk about the number of angels on a pin... which I suggest could be 4... one on the drums, one on the bass and one keys and one on guitar...

[Fredkc]

Unfortunately Kula;
I march to the beat of a different elephant.
What they did world-wide in the name of those who lost their lives.
THAT is the real crime.

PS: remind me to never borrow pins from you. I'd need a truck to bring one home.
Fred

[Strat]

Hello, all. I'm quite sure that it was a jet, but, who can possibly know?

I don't believe it was a Boeing 757 jet, though. It was a smaller, more sleek jet; likely some type of small, navy aircraft.

Maybe I said this in an earlier comment, but I'll type it out again. I've talked to several pilots about the 9/11 attacks, and their answers were nearly the same when I brought up the Pentagon dilemma. There is no way that a hijacker, who failed at flying a Cessna, could fly a 757 low enough to knock street lamps over, long enough to take aim at a low-rise building, all at 570 miles per hour. A plane that large flying that fast at that low of an altitude would be defying physics. The lowest that 757 could get to the ground at that speed, without losing control, would be roughly 60 feet. A strong, physical draft would push the plane upward extremely fast, preventing the plane from maintaing that particular altitude and speed; all of which would be causing a great deal of instability for the inexperienced pilot, as well.

This is only the physics of the descent of Flight 77; I'm not even describing some of the support beam data issues, or the film, or even the heat produced by the engines vs. the ground.

In the past, I have given a complete 9/11 presentation to groups, and I am willing to revamp the slideshow to contain more data about Flight 77 if the Avalon Community is interested.

But, my best guess on what hit the Pentagon that morning... A jet.

I'm voting plane, but by that I mean jet.

Silly question; of these people you talked too did they mention if it is possible for a jet to fly at that height at those speeds? If so is that a fairly simple thing for a jet? We also need to consider if the wingspan of said jet is long enough to take out the light posts.

[SPIRIT WOLF]

Many very experienced pilots have openly, publicly stated that even a very experienced pilot would find the task of flying either a small military jet let alone a large cumbersome civilian 757, an impossible task. Coming round over 33degrees then coming in at zero feet just above the ground at high speed, IMPOSSIBLE for an experienced pilot, so how could a rank amateur do it? THEY DID NOT

[Kulapops]

No... I'd say it's the same elephant Fred because I agree with you... the FACTS of the matter is what happened afterwards... and that is the REAL crime. A war fought on an inconvenient truth or half truth... just as the Great War was fought the same way.

That there are crimes committed by those in power, who will never have to atone for the loss of life or injustice (well, not in this life perhaps) is clear to me. And it is very sad and it is very bad.

What you cannot say with any certainty however is who, what or even why. Well, I'd say certainly not at my level because I don't have the facts , nor access to any credible source that I could verify. And people who set themselves up as 'credible' well, how would I know? Or anyone else.. without a lot and lot and lot of research... and then... some one comes along.. and they say... 'look... I've done loads of research , me.. so you won't have to...so let me tell you what happened....'

And in order for me to know they are telling the whole truth and are not misguided, well, I'd have to do almost as much research as they have...

which is great.. if you have the time and the inclination....

But I just don't see where debates on 'whaddaya think hit the pentagon?' can bring you a baby step closer to the truth (no offence yaya... it's totally understandable to be curious about these things.... maybe I'm just being a party pooper here...)

I guess my point, if I have one... that every minute spent in a debate you can't solve is a minute less for doing the things that you can do.

Or are we just throwing out a net to say.. ok , "Someone tell us how they did it...please " and expect that someone is going to fill in the correct answer?

Is one of these options even true ??? (Plane.. missile.. bomb.... ?) How about Harp.. or Aliens did it... ? :cool:

I agree it seems highly unlikely that a 757 could fly that close to the ground with out being in it... but it seems equally unlikely that you would just fire a missile at the Pentagon in broad daylight and expect that no one would see anything... yes.. bomb and one ACME lorry load of miscellaneous plane bits might do the job... but what are we looking for here? A story , that, when I tell someone, they are going to say, 'yeah, that sounds pretty damn likely'... or the actual TRUTH ??

Because the truth is out there... we're just never going to know.. and imagining that we will is probably akin to believing in fairies...

which is not to say they don't exist... but I'll be pretty (un)lucky if I ever see one (not least of which because no one would believe me if I did see one...)

Best wishes to all...

K

P.S. Spirit Wolf's post just got me thinking too. All this conspiracy conjecture is a bit like the Magician's trick with the rings. "See these two rings? Perfectly solid. Now watch what happens when I bang them together..."

Now why do you suppose two solid rings join together like that??

Because one of the rings is not solid... see the facts in these stories are just like the rings. We are presented with ,say two, facts in a story and we are amazed at the hypothesis or outcome. But some where... one of the facts is not solid...

For example... either it's not a 757... or it's not an inexperienced pilot... or it wasn't coming in at ground level? Who saw it come in ? Anyone report seeing a 757 in the vicinity? How come everyone saw the towers and no one saw the pentagon ? Does it have a cloak of invisibility around it ???

Basically, you need to find the magician.. and ask him how he did it.... and the better the trick and the magician... the less likely he's going to tell...

[SPIRIT WOLF]

Those in charge, those whom manipulated events, the media, and the people, scaring the bejesus out of everyone saying "look, these nasty vile terrorists have done this to us, we must take revenge"
The rest is history, and a saddening one at that

[norman]

I voted for "Plane" but definately NOT! a 747, 757 or any kind of mass passenger plane. I'm going to stick with the early work that was in agreement then that an old A10 was resurrected and retro-fitted with computer guidance equipment and the explosive parts of a missile. Basically, a custom built 'cruise' missile made from an old fighter jet and a modern missile payload.

[Beth]

But I just don't see where debates on 'whaddaya think hit the pentagon?' can bring you a baby step closer to the truth (no offence yaya... it's totally understandable to be curious about these things.... maybe I'm just being a party pooper here...)


Actually this thread was in response to another thread where someone asserted that the majority here believe it was a 757, and that it had been definitively been proven that it was a 757 by a post from ATS.

Yes, I realize that the most important point is and has been the aftermath, and I don't focus all my time on the what and when.

Just used this poll to show the other poster that no, the majority of us do not believe the official story. To be honest, I wouldn't have cared if anyone posted in the thread at all, just that the poll was done.

[Dale]

Silly question; of these people you talked too did they mention if it is possible for a jet to fly at that height at those speeds?

From what I remember, they had stated that a Boeing 757 traveling 570 miles per hour, as declared by the official reports, could not fly at such a low height. I would assume that because of both the size and speed of the plane, physics would not allow for it to fly in such a manner. A jet that large traveling that fast would be pushed upward by some kind of natural force. An experienced pilot would have a great deal of difficulty maintaining control over the jet at such a low altitude; simple physics would be pushing the plane upwards.


Coming round over 33degrees then coming in at zero feet just above the ground at high speed, IMPOSSIBLE for an experienced pilot, so how could a rank amateur do it?

Some of the maneuvers of Flight 77 were mind boggling, to say the least. I have yet to meet a pilot who pull these "stunts" off. The sharp turns, flight changes, unbearable G Forces, and simply getting the plane to fly that fast all prove to be immense challenges.

Solid, proven laws of physics seem to have been defied on several occasions that morning. In all honesty, I cannot explain how a Boeing 757 piloted by a clueless mountain man from the Middle East could have slammed into the Pentagon. It seems more reasonable, after looking at many other data points involving structural failures of the outer rings of the Pentagon and support column collapses, that a small jet, or maybe even a missile, did the majority of the damage.

Who knows what else was involved :p

[Strat]

Well we (at least our community) can deduce that a 757 could not realistically do what was stated in the commission report. My question was could a military grade jet do it? I generally assume the answer is yes, I just figured id go ahead and ask.

I feel this is a good way to attack this subject. Point out what the commission report states and show how it is impossible. One thing that's also had me thinking is the description of the flight 93 events. In the commission report it states that the terrorists tried to turn the plane abruptly to the left and right to throw passengers off of their feet as they tried breaking down the door. I imagine this would really show the maneuvering capabilities of a 757. Typically we only see them list to the side as the gently aim into another direction, I've never seen them make abrupt turns that could knock someone down. Is that even possible?

[Carmody]

And on the 10th of September 2001, Donald Rumsfeld addressed the public, on TV, over the findings of an outside audit and accounting firm...that the Military had 'misplaced' 2.2 Trillion dollars of taxpayers money.

Standing behind him, was Dov Zakim, a Jewish Ordained Rabbi and dual Israeli citizen.. who was the comptroller of the Pentagon. Ie, in charge of the money.

The next day,This drone plane or whatever it was, hit the Pentagon.

It hit the offices of the accounting and killed 22 members of the audit firm and permanently destroyed the base records of the audit.

The Pentagon Strike bears the marks of being a hastily erected add-on to some other base plan.

[Operator]

Well we (at least our community) can deduce that a 757 could not realistically do what was stated in the commission report.

There have been accidents with airliners on air shows because they are not designed to fly that low ... e.g. board computers took over and thought a landing was intended.


My question was could a military grade jet do it? I generally assume the answer is yes, I just figured id go ahead and ask.

I remember that in the Netherlands fighter jets were used on June 11, 1977 to fly over a hijacked train at 100 feet and less to shock the hijackers and end the situation.

[Kulapops]

Call me a toad for semantics, but I'd have thought 'not sure' was the only possible choice on this list.

Or at least to expand on that , you could have

'I'm not sure, but I think it was a plane'

'I'm not sure but I think it was a missile'

'I'm not sure, but I think we'll never know for sure'

In which case, I'd still have picked option 3... but at least the other two choices are now accurate

;0)

[morguana]

Agree kula, is it a bird, plane or superman?
I don't think we will ever know for sure, all I can go on is my gut, and as far as I can 'feel' it was expertly demolished, remember that was my first thought when I watched it happening at the time via tv
m

[Kulapops]

Would have been kinda neat... and following the 'new physics' we now know to be true...if ... a couple of hours after the 757 hit the pentagon... the entire building would have collapsed into a pile of dust.

Due to the intense heat of the fire inside...etcetera,, etcetera....

[Celine]

How many here, saw the second tower get hit live? on tv?

i did, and i was on the phone with my mother who did also...i remember feeling dizzy and nauseated...i did not speak for ...minutes.. the handle of the phone just laid in my hands..

"stunned" is an understatement...

But i truly felt what i was watching...was hypnotizing... i couldnt stop watching...over and over again..

million felt that way to if i remember..glued to the tv...watching..

felt like i had jumped down the rabbit hole

...perhaps just a "reaction to stress"

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Would have been kinda neat... and following the 'new physics' we now know to be true...if ... a couple of hours after the 757 hit the pentagon... the entire building would have collapsed into a pile of dust.

Due to the intense heat of the fire inside...etcetera,, etcetera....

Great point Kula..

Hmm

[Kulapops]

I know , slightly off topic. But I'd love to know if anyone out there on avalon actually saw the planes hit the towers with their own eyes... (that can surely only be a group of a few thousand people who were close enough at that time)... and for those people, how many would say that what they saw ties up with what was shown on tv.

I wonder how many saw what hit the pentagon as it happened. A bit like seeing a shooting star.. you'd have to be looking in the right direction at the right time.. even if you were there.

Another point.... of those who saw the first plane hit.. how many commuters within seeing distance of the tower would actually be looking up at the point it hit ?? maybe plenty after... but how many before ?

yes, I know.. tv footage shows people stopping and gazing up.. just before.... but have you ever seen a movie ?????

How many of us felt at the time, it was just like watching a scene from a blockbuster???

I'm not saying it didn't happen.. I'm just saying, how can you know what really did?

Millions of people worldwide saw tv images of what happened as it happened and after it happened, yet maybe only a couple of thousand saw something (and did it even crash at the same speed as we see on tv... seems to happen in slow motion to me... did they slow the footage down? Just as people don't see what hit the pentagon because it happened so fast... perhaps the same was true of the towers. did the people who 'saw' just hear a noise and look up ? or look up in time just to see a flash of something and an explosion? Could also have been missiles.

...and rest of us got the information via the media and trust implicitly what we see on tv. but remember what I say about the magician's rings... they are not both solid facts.

Would be lovely to hear from a few eyewitnesses and hear their story. And I'm not even talking about loosechange here. How do you know the eyewitnesses from these kind of vids were even eyewitnesses ???

Just because someone says to you 'I saw it with my own eyes'... does that mean they did ?????

Oh.. conspiracy conspiracy... it's a never ending road.... I think I better go do the washing up instead...

[Celine]

You should start a poll maybe Kula.

[Operator]

But I'd love to know if anyone out there on avalon actually saw the planes hit the towers with their own eyes...

Well if I was a paid agent I would love to convince everybody I was there and saw an airliner ... how credible is that ? It simply can't be verified ...
Along the same lines I saw news footage of an eyewitness coming from the area ... the reporter asks about the plane. The response:
"What plane ? There was a bomb !"

The footage seems credible as the witness is hurrying out of the area all covered in dust ... but even that footage can be 'planted' and not verified (anymore).

The only thing left now is your intuition ... and some things you really can be certain of

1. something did hit the twin towers and the pentagon
2. the official explanation is fishy, some of it physically not possible and thus not credible

For me personally it leads to the conclusion that something in the higher ranks is terribly wrong. And this is actually no news at all,
perhaps only more prominent evidence that could stir up the amount of people questioning today's reality.

[Eric J (Viking)]

found this...


http://www.project.nsearch.com/video/us-cameraman-has-proof-911-was?xg_source=facebookshare


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLd_mUXS5E8&feature=player_embedded

viking

[Celine]

Someone needs to buy Bill a plane ticket to Buenos Aires...

22 hours?..hmm working for the goverment? hmm..

[Beth]

Call me a toad for semantics, but I'd have thought 'not sure' was the only possible choice on this list.

Or at least to expand on that , you could have

'I'm not sure, but I think it was a plane'

'I'm not sure but I think it was a missile'

'I'm not sure, but I think we'll never know for sure'

In which case, I'd still have picked option 3... but at least the other two choices are now accurate

;0)

If you look at the title of this thread and the question in the poll, it says what do you "think" hit the pentagon.

[Carmody]

I'm not at all that concerned about what exactly hit the Pentagon. It is distracting and relatively useless to focus on that.

what I'm more interested in, is the proof in the pudding, which is Rumsfeld stating quite clearly that the $2.2T was missing ....and that the money likely went into black ops projects and outright corporate and 'other' theft.

That's the real topic of discussion as it is observably the real reason that these entire fishy events at the Pentagon - took place.

The sept 10, 2001 Rumsfeld Pentagon Press conference is on the net,as a video. Go look at it.

Once again it is not important what hit the pentagon. The reason for it occurring is paramount. All the evidence of that direction to go in - is out there.

As was said to the Student in 'Enter The Dragon (Bruce Lee points and the student looks), "Stop looking at my finger, or you will miss all that heavenly glory!"

[Kulapops]

If you look at the title of this thread and the question in the poll, it says what do you "think" hit the pentagon.

Ok... fair point !

I'll get me coat...:becky:

[truthseekerdan]

The difference between misinformation and disinformation is one of intent: Misinformation is accidental, while disinformation is purposely spread. Tune in to learn more about propaganda techniques -- and what makes a disinfo agent -- in this episode. Click here (http://podcasts.howstuffworks.com/hsw/podcasts/conspiracy/2010-07-23-conspiracy-disinformation.m4v) ;)

[jimmer]

not sure if you all saw this forensic reconstruction (found on the thread that started this conversation).
if not, take a look (all the way to the end) and then ask yourself how a missile could do all the
blunt impact damage at and around the building. and what about all the aircraft debris?

if this doesn't fit your scenario, then keep thinking.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8&feature=related

[iceni tribe]

oops the guys that know let slip it was a missile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3LJXoXpAHE

[Beth]

oops the guys that know let slip it was a missile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3LJXoXpAHE

Nice find!!

[Samson]

The 911 case study above doesnt point out the impact zone was in tact the first 40 minutes, most windows were in tact and there was no hole anywhere near the size of that plane Find those pictures and do the math and youll know.
Several security cameras have filmed the impact. Why are those tapes not released to the public? The answer is it would jeopardise public safety according to government statements... Yeah sure the whole world could see a missile hit the pentagon and then....well guess. The vew frames that are released show nothing but an explosion.
Im from Holland and in Dutch there is http://www.waarheid911.nl/ ive read and seen all the info and disinfo there is about that day. In my opinion anyone who can see and/ or read can prove 911 was an inside job within a day or two. Just a vew official pictures can do the trick basicly. The case study above is not fact but fake.
Info for whos interested in why NIST Denies Access to WTC Collapse Data published on July 12, 2010 and
52 Photos of World Trade Center 7 Collapse on March 13 2010 can be found here http://cryptome.org/cryptout.htm
1 picture can say more then a thousand words.

if this doesn't fit your scenario, then keep looking. Government employees are lousy photoshoppers. 'all' the debris? Are you kiddin...

[iceni tribe]

jimmer's case study is done by INTERGRATED CONSULTANTS INC , they are a goverment navel base called POINT LOMA san diego at the foothills of the rockies..............Mmmmmmm

[SPIRIT WOLF]

not sure if you all saw this forensic reconstruction (found on the thread that started this conversation).
if not, take a look (all the way to the end) and then ask yourself how a missile could do all the
blunt impact damage at and around the building. and what about all the aircraft debris?

if this doesn't fit your scenario, then keep thinking.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8&feature=related
LOL What debris? a few small pieces. a large round hole was punched thru the building, lets see, a large airliner is composed mostly of crushable aluminum and would totally crumble into nothing at speed hitting a building. Work it out guys

[wynderer]

i remember reading that the part of the building that was hit [not by a plane or missile, imo] contained the offices of one part of the military w/a substantial number of patriots [non-NWO]

edit: if it was a missile, it must have been small & easily removed

really -- how can anyone still believe it was a plane? & i don't even know why i'm posting here -- there are far worse things going on in the present

[SPIRIT WOLF]

From my 8 years looking into this I have seen a large percentage of good honest US citizens still falling for the official story, no matter how strong the evidence against it. It was the part of that building that was undergoing renovations, it also was deliberately manned with minimum employees. Small debris was photographed, conveniently placed no doubt, but in absence were the two large engines. They carried out something under a blue tarp but that was fairly light in weight certainly no engine. If anyone cares to look at this with any logic they will see how ridiculous it was to assume a large aircraft could arrive at zero feet at probably 300mph or so and hit the building. All those that openly publicly said they witnessed such an aircraft are paid disinfo.

[noxon medem]

Voted not sure,
not because am not sure
but between the altenatives
it migfht be the best.
Not sure it was the allegded
plane that hit it, but have no problem
accepting the idea that a remote controlled
"airplane" hit that unlikely section of the pentagon.
It is possible the "hijacked" flight 77 also was
in, or over, the pentagon area at that time.
(the fly-over, theory)

[Zook]

not sure if you all saw this forensic reconstruction (found on the thread that started this conversation).
if not, take a look (all the way to the end) and then ask yourself how a missile could do all the
blunt impact damage at and around the building. and what about all the aircraft debris?

if this doesn't fit your scenario, then keep thinking.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8&feature=related


Flashy simulation. Suggestive, yes. But not investigative. First of all, the evidence at the other nodes of the 9/11/2001 attacks (specifically, the WTC7 collapse node) ... establishes the Inside Job nature of the attacks. Short of the preposterous situation where Inside Job can be established at one particular node and Osama bin Laden can be held liable at another node ... we can confidently assert that any genuinely investigative account of the Pentagon attack must produce evidence that corroborates the establishment of Inside Job (e.g. courtesy of the WTC7 collapse node). The following is one such corroborative account:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4196580169348087802#

The witnesses are all compelling (especially so, the two police officers who - thinking they are confirming the Official Story slash modern tall Arabian tale of Osama bin Laden and Nineteen Boxcutting Sheikhs - recount with absolute certainty the Northside passage of the putative Boeing jetliner that is alleged to have hit the Pentagon). Indeed, both officers assume the Boeing jetliner hit the Pentagon; a reasonable assumption given the huge fireball that they remember seeing. But here's the crux. The official story requires Southside passage relative to the Citgo gas station, e.g. in order to account for the downed light poles. Also, the third Citgo witness recounts how the jetliner pulled up to avoid hitting the "stop sign" structure (that spanned across the road next to the Pentagon). This is consistent with a flyover because, once you pull up at that speed and that close to the Pentagon, you won't have opportunity or enough reaction time to pull down again to impact the building.

One other note, in your simulated version, the Boeing jetliner is alleged to have impacted several light poles, a generator and housing box, and went headlong into a fairly tall tree (three floors high). How it had enough energy remaining after that to disappear into the building ... well ... I'm guessing Mike J Wilson, the man behind the magic, added fairy dust into his calculations.


Uncle Zook

[Snowbird]

If no planes hit anything, then someone murdered 3 planes worth (about 500 people) in cold blood, somewhere. And they did it without leaving one speck of evidence.

Question is, If you're that good, why stop there?

Were I this dastardly, I would have begun my plot by making damned sure that, anyone involved who could have drawn a straight line between any two 'suspicious facts', was playing Pinocle with Jimmy Hoffa, within 30 days.

Exactly. However, it is thought/believed that there were a few who survived the gulag. I have copied/pasted a portion of my post from the other 9/11 conspiracy thread. Hani Hanjour in no way could have flown a 757 or a Cesna or a kite for that matter. The plane that hit the Pentagon could have contained on board, the parts that were seen after the fact. If the flight 77 passengers and crew were on board the plane that hit the Pentagon, they were already relieved from this life. That plane was auto-piloted.

"For those who wonder why after all this time, non of the air traffic controllers or the military personnel or eye witnesses have not come forward to tell their stories, I have two responses. One, they want to live to see their children grow up and two, many have already come forward...certainly not to talk to the government or the mainstream media, but they have covertly approached the victims' families. How do I know this? I have heard some of the family members state this very thing. The victims' family members know the truth of what happened. They have done the deep deep research.

What hit the Pentagon? A missile and a possible holographic plane. This "plane", was definitely not a Boeing 757. It was also definitely not flight 77.

I hate to sound so cold on this thread, but where were the strewn bodies and luggage, etc.? Yes, I have seen many pictures of burned unidentifiable bodies. Does anyone really think that our government is telling truth when they state that these bodies were recovered and returned to the families? And again, I don't mean to sound cold and heartless, but I have read that there exists a distinct possibility that a few, if not more than a few, of the passengers, especially some of the more famous ones, are alive and well...they just look a lot different than they used to look."

[bennycog]

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?4867-Evidence-That-A-Boeing-757-Really-Did-Impact-the-Pentagon-on-9-11&p=49060&posted=1#post49060

just a post on another thread here.. did not want to double post..

bennycog