Authentic Vs. Spiritual

[Fred Steeves]

So here goes. This has been eating at me for some time now, so I'm just going to say it.:rolleyes:(Oh boy, here he goes again LOL) I think spirituality is for the birds, and more than that, I think it's a trap. A person can meditate til the cows come home, memorize holy teachings of every sort, have powerful experiences, etc., but unless the coal of authenticity is burning hotly within, they're running in place, if not losing ground.

What do I mean exactly by authentic? The Oracle baking cookies in the original Matrix movie is authentic. Someone deeply into the dying process is likely to be authentic, or someone on death row, or someone who has truly been to war. Of course small children are authentic, as are our pets. We love them just for that don't we?

It's the realm of no games, and honesty, and the rest is dropping away like burnt flesh. I can't speak for anyone else, but it makes me sick when I see a small child who has been taught to be spiritual. Something precious has been taken away, like the ability just to be a little kid. Adults too.

What do I mean by spiritual? I don't rightly know, only that for the first time in easily a year recently, I found myself browsing the Spiritual section of Barnes And Noble to spend an old gift card. That particular realm not that long ago was my port in the storm so to speak, and now the feeling of being there again after some time was unmistakable: "Fred, you no longer belong here".

To sum things up, I feel strongly that the answer to our times leads directly back to the old "Know Thyself", and absolutely nothing else. To know one's self is to be at peace with one's self, and with that, comes peace with the world, and one's surroundings. (I'm nowhere near there btw) Anyone whose chief intent is anything other than this, is doing just fine of course, but it just means that this lifetime is likely not one of their chances to come here and remember. I think I've been through millions of those...

One more thing. Discernment between who is here to make another attempt at moving on past this plane, and who is here to spread out like a spiritual peacock, will be getting easier with noticing and practice. We've already seen this demonstrated nicely here on Avalon over the last couple of years.


Cheers Everybody, http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif
Fred

[Nanoo Nanoo]

aaah, another penny drops ; 0 )


well said

N

[Flash]

a person sometimes working with me and i were precisely discussing about this today.

A person can meditate til the cows come home, memorize holy teachings of every sort, have powerful experiences, etc., but unless the coal of authenticity is burning hotly within, they're running in place, if not losing ground.

What do I mean exactly by authentic? The Oracle baking cookies in the original Matrix movie is authentic. Someone deeply into the dying process is likely to be authentic, or someone on death row, or someone who has truly been to war.

We were talking about the meditation groups, where most compare themselves favorably of course with others, grading the spiritual awareness of all. I told her that once, fed up of this grading and judging, I just told them that in this life I did not meditate as much because I had done it in previous lifes. I wanted them to shut the comparisons and take a hike. I felt this attitude sooooo unspirtual from all involved (including me). My friend said the same, she is pitching all these meditation practices and spiritual egos away for a true down to earth involvement, helping on a down to earth way.

It is the same for me when people on forums make thread of who is "aware" and who is not, specifying that they are in the aware crowd. This makes me laugh. I have seen countless "aware" literally sleeping at the switch, and many "unaware" very conscious of what is going on in the world without having had the benefit of forums readings. To me, the latter deserve quite a lot of respect because they came to their own conclusions by themselves, which makes conviction quite strong.

Most of the time, in times of crisis, it is the "unaware" that are of most help. In spiritualiy, it is the ones having learned to control their ego, including the spiritual ego, that are the most helpful, not the talkers and weighters.

Therefore, to me authentic means with discipilned, controlled egos, spiritual can mean anything.

The theard tite could also have been, as far as I am concerned, Authentic vs Aware.

[RMorgan]

Hey Fred,

Man, I really loved the spiritual peacock expression! It fits perfectly in so many situations!

Cheers,

Raf.

[Kiforall]

Thanks for that,
It can be difficult to keep a lid on the energy.
Zoe x

[Maunagarjana]

I can see what you mean, Fred. I guess I would just express it a little differently. The difference as I see it is between true spirituality vs fake spirituality. Fake spirituality is about putting on pretensions, collecting and holding fast to beliefs, assuming an identity based on some image (a mask, no matter how spiritually inspired, is a mask.) True spirituality is about dropping all contrivances, pretensions, attachment to belief systems, and all masks. I try not to put down people I think might be caught up in the fakeness of spirituality, because it at least is an attempt at being spiritually attuned, however misguided. But there's no substitute for the real thing.

[another bob]

Humans are the least qualified to be passing judgments on each other.

Period.

[Chester]

I can see what you mean, Fred. I guess I would just express it a little differently. The difference as I see it is between true spirituality vs fake spirituality. Fake spirituality is about putting on pretensions, collecting and holding fast to beliefs, assuming an identity based on some image (a mask, no matter how spiritually inspired, is a mask.) True spirituality is about dropping all contrivances, pretensions, attachment to belief systems, and all masks. I try not to put down people I think might be caught up in the fakeness of spirituality, because it at least is an attempt at being spiritually attuned, however misguided. But there's no substitute for the real thing.

True spirituality might just be being authentic... authentic may also be allowing your view to shift based on where you are authentically at at any given moment. That's one reason I am happy to be a quantum being... I can be all and everything (quantum) and also be any teensee tinesy aspect of the all that is within the all that is and shift from one aspect to another aspect on a dime.


Humans are the least qualified to be passing judgments on each other.

Period.

amen

[mosquito]

Yep. Authenticity, being who you truly are, is the key. But I am in no way knocking the spiritual path ...... The problem with trying to be "spiritual" is that your ego (which of course you now wrongly believe you have transcended) simply changes its' focus onto a new value and judgment system, hence "I'm more spiritual than you" etc etc. "Spiritual" is just another divisive term.

By being authentic, doing what makes your heart sing, you automatically move along the path of spiritual evolution, at the pace and in the direction which is right for you. And of course for some people, this path is an openly spiritual one !!!

The Dao De Jing talks about teaching without teaching, doing without doing. (But let's not dig up that bloody argument again !); Castaneda's Don Juan talks about "doing" versus "not doing" (if my memory serves me correctly), which Castaneda obdurately refused to understand ! Both of these are pointing at the essence of what you're saying Fred, and I have to add that you expressed it very clearly.

[D-Day]

Seems to me that 9eagle9 is still [indirectly] influencing this forum.

Great thread, Fred.

[Anchor]

Nice post.

Another nail being hit squarely on the head.

Meditation has its place and if anyone ever asks me then I still recommend giving it a go. Its one of the tools that help you "Know Thyself".

[Jenci]

So here goes. This has been eating at me for some time now, so I'm just going to say it.:rolleyes:(Oh boy, here he goes again LOL) I think spirituality is for the birds, and more than that, I think it's a trap. A person can meditate til the cows come home, memorize holy teachings of every sort, have powerful experiences, etc., but unless the coal of authenticity is burning hotly within, they're running in place, if not losing ground.

What do I mean exactly by authentic? The Oracle baking cookies in the original Matrix movie is authentic. Someone deeply into the dying process is likely to be authentic, or someone on death row, or someone who has truly been to war. Of course small children are authentic, as are our pets. We love them just for that don't we?

It's the realm of no games, and honesty, and the rest is dropping away like burnt flesh. I can't speak for anyone else, but it makes me sick when I see a small child who has been taught to be spiritual. Something precious has been taken away, like the ability just to be a little kid. Adults too.

What do I mean by spiritual? I don't rightly know, only that for the first time in easily a year recently, I found myself browsing the Spiritual section of Barnes And Noble to spend an old gift card. That particular realm not that long ago was my port in the storm so to speak, and now the feeling of being there again after some time was unmistakable: "Fred, you no longer belong here".

To sum things up, I feel strongly that the answer to our times leads directly back to the old "Know Thyself", and absolutely nothing else. To know one's self is to be at peace with one's self, and with that, comes peace with the world, and one's surroundings. (I'm nowhere near there btw) Anyone whose chief intent is anything other than this, is doing just fine of course, but it just means that this lifetime is likely not one of their chances to come here and remember. I think I've been through millions of those...

One more thing. Discernment between who is here to make another attempt at moving on past this plane, and who is here to spread out like a spiritual peacock, will be getting easier with noticing and practice. We've already seen this demonstrated nicely here on Avalon over the last couple of years.


Cheers Everybody, http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif
Fred

Hi Fred


The ego is the activity in a person which maintains the illusion of separation from the Source. We can see this manifest in people in terms of competition and comparison with others, with people constantly seeking to maintain that separation - my job is better, my house is better, I've got a better relationship, my phone is better etc.

After initial spiritual awakening the need for all these "things" to bolster a sense of identity is usually seen through and all the things which used to be important, no longer seem relevent.

The ego activity of maintaining separation will still remain and it will just shift from using those things to maintain its sense of self, to using spirituality. The spiritually awakened ego is a natural part of this process, everyone will go through it but the real trap is when it is not seen through.

The spiritual ego will label, judge and compare others on the spiritual path to maintain a sense of self or individual identity. The ego needs the comparison of others to remain in tact - it's the same ego activity as it has always been, its just transferred what it uses and become more subtle.

In fact it can become more stubborn to deal with at this point because the person believes that because they have had such a huge transformation in their self and life that they believe they are on the right path.

Of course they are on the right path and all these feelings of comparison and judgement of others are being stirred up within them to show them what is internally calling for attention, in terms of seeking out points of separation from the Source.

The problem arises with this process when the person, rather than dealing with the inner calling of attention, externalises this onto other people and makes it about "them" and what "they" are doing.

The truth is that everyone is having an authentic human experience, whatever they are doing. Everyone is doing what they need to be do to get where they need to go.


This has been eating at me for some time now, so I'm just going to say it.:rolleyes:(Oh boy, here he goes again LOL)
You said it here in the opening line of your post, something has been eating at you for some time? This is what is calling for your your attention and it has nothing to do with what "they" are doing. :)


Jeanette

[Limor Wolf]

Hi Fred,

To me, the answer is obvious - autenthicity.

Being 'spiritual' is only an outcome of getting to know yourself inside and out and striving to know more, there is nothing that one can 'do' to behave spiritual, otherwise, it is not real. it is an 'act'. In any case, in essence we are all 'spiritual beings' but not all of us are authentic (I know that I have to work on that in certain circumstances )

Recently I read the 'Twelfte insight' by James Redfield , a sequel to the 'Celestine prophecy, The tenth insight etc., a 'spiritual' book by all accounts, one of the insights there talks about the importance of authenticity.

From the book :


" As I read on, I realized I have only one page, which was torn and contained only single paragraph. It states that any person who holds the truth of his synchronistic journey, and listens to the truth in another person's journey, is helping to build a new world view which is more appropriate. Due to the respect that this person is developing in regards for truth this has a special effect that affects the world. All we have to do is to maintain our high level of energy...

The first integration has shown us that when we tell others the absolute truth, we help coincidences occur...

In modern times we tend to bend the truth for our own personal advantage or for a political purpose, so we see corruption and greed everywhere...

But in the higher stages of consciousness there is no lie or distortion that is justified. The law of truth is absolute. if we are not staying honest with our best awareness then all will suffer."



James Radfield talks about the need to return to integrity :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsjjfoTJrD4


What is certain is that being sincere is connecting us more to our spirituality.


Thanks for sharing your autenticity, Fred :)


~^&*~^&*

Limor

[Tarka the Duck]

I agree with much of what you say, Fred. Authenticity is an issue that practitioners and students must have been considering for time immemorial, and it seems to particularly relevant in this age. As you probably know, Chogyam Trungpa coined the phrase "Spiritual Materialism", to describe the way in which we manipulate spiritual teachings to preserve our belief in our small self as being our true self.

Turning to "spirituality" can be an escape from the discomfort and unhappiness found in our daily lives: it's seen as yet another way to deal with our problems. As you say, a visit to the Spirituality section of any big book shop - particularly in the the US - is testament to this. The "New! Re-packaged! Shiny! Easily digested!" spirituality that seems to be a blend of self help and DIY psychology and is conveniently palatable, with all the tough bits removed. And much of it is directed at healing and fulfilment of our small self. But even this offers a start for people - a way in.

For me, an authentic spiritual journey is the one that actually is, and not the one we wish it was or hope that it might be. It's not the one we create in our minds to fool ourselves, and it's not the one we pretend it is to impress others. We have to start from where we are right now, fully embracing this life. Concepts, theories, and philosophies can never be as valuable as the way in which we actually live our lives, and the lengths to which we are prepared to go to investigate our belief in a solid, continuous ego.

"Spirituality is about rediscovering the capacity to allow our life to flow from the source of authenticity, which is the silence that is at the core of our being" (I don't know who wrote this - unfortunately, it wasn't me:o).

Kathie

[Fred Steeves]

Sometimes when I start a thread like this one, and especially this one, a major concerned thought is: "Fred, you're about to expose to the whole world what ridiculous stuff is really going through your head". After listening to that repeated mantra the whole time writing, it gets one or two more real good listens at the end, and then the post thread button is pushed. Too late now, if what I'm thinking/sensing is absurd, way off base, judgemental, or whatever, then let it be exposed to the sunlight, right here and right now. Just like my all time favorite Alex Collier quote: "No more bulls**t".http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/no.gif The ego is afraid of being exposed, not the authentic self.

Limor, two excellent examples of authenticity, Don Juan teaching Castaneda, and James Redfield's Celestine Prophecies. The Don Juan character, real or contrived, is the epitome of an authentic human being. Then this snippet from your Celestine book quote sums it up nicely.


But in the higher stages of consciousness there is no lie or distortion that
is justified. The law of truth is absolute. if we are not staying honest with
our best awareness then all will suffer."


You know, I've spent most of my life not being authentic, just like most people. It didn't mean that I was not an authentic human being, because of course we all are. What it did mean is that my base motivation, the "intent" as Don Juan would put it, was not authentic. Therefore my actions were not authentic. Often enough they still aren't, and the deeper one goes into self observation, the more in your face obvious it becomes. Any more, when I'm not being authentic, I suffer. And when I am being authentic, things just seem to flow, even though it may appear they are about to fall apart. Like Don Juan also says, that no matter how dire a circumstance a warrior may find himself, there is always "and yet..."

There is a very fine line between judgement, and recognition. If I note non authentic behavior in a person, it is not judgement, it is recognition. It is recognition of an aspect of myself I know all too well. We are old friends. To somehow not notice this would be akin to not noticing/recognizing/judging an intruder in my house. This would be willfull blindness.http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif As in, how many people still want to hear what Drake has to say?

Cheers,
Fred

[Anchor]

Here is a way to be unauthentic : http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6153 (its a very old Project Avalon post on the old forum, 4 years ago!)

One tries to avoid this kind of behavior if one is able :)

[Beren]

Excellent thread!

A reminder to all to rediscover themselves. But even following other writings is a calling card to rediscovery...
With some it lasts longer but when it comes it's a miracle!

[WHOMADEGOD]

I suppose we have to question why we are trying to be spiritual?

Generally there is an inner calling, a niggling thought or idea that does not fit within our societal structure of beliefs. This is our cue to turn inwards.

In doing so, we able to centre ourselves by avoiding the deliberate distractions placed upon us and have time out and by doing so wake up and distance ourselves from the drama and recognise and learn from the many lessons to be had in a more objective capacity.

The danger now is that to be "spiritual" is seen as fashionable. And this could very easily work against us unless we realise why we choose to turn inwardly, for peace, for re-connection with our true natures.

[Sebastion]

Methinks you are right D-Day. Seems to me she was all about getting passed and seeing through your societal and parental programming and imprinting. Only then could one begin to truly "know thyself" and approach authenticity. Tis not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination.





Seems to me that 9eagle9 is still [indirectly] influencing this forum.

Great thread, Fred.

[genevieve]

I've recently lost my self-described "enlightened Buddhist visionary" friend because I told her I wanted only ten minutes' notice before a visit from her since she somehow almost never arrived when she said she would (and sometimes never arrived). And after 44 years of being left hanging, I felt ten minutes' notice would suit us both.

In response she sent me three e-mails in two days (none of which I responded to). In the first she tried to justify her unpredictability, in the second she referred to me as her "bright and shining flower" and herself as a "sorry ass," and in the third she washed her hands of me because she couldn't "bear the weight of [my] control freak ways."

This gal has all the trappings of being a Buddhist (statues of Buddha, pictures of the Dalai Lama, om symbols, etc.), attends Buddhist retreats, etc., yet when asked for something as bottom-line courteous as ten-minute notice, she wouldn't do it because she needed freedom to go with the flow, no matter how I was impacted. That seems pretty authentic to me, although I wish she'd been able to be authentically courteous.

I haven't tagged myself as anything in particular. Labeling myself (or another) as authentic or spiritual doesn't make sense to me because no one is static. Each action or thought can vary from the next. I guess I'm just not into labels, which I think tend to be self serving on some level.

Peace Love Joy & Harmony,
Genevieve

[Joe Akulis]

Fred, your thankyou ratio on Avalon is way better than most, so we know you're more spiritual than we are. :-)

Sorry. (I was physically unable to prevent myself from typing that.)

Okay, on the other lighter side of this conversation, I would echo a similar sentiment as others have. When you said, "I can't speak for anyone else, but it makes me sick when I see a small child who has been taught to be spiritual." It reminded me of a thread I was reading last week about someone explaining that by placing a priority on this strive toward righteousness--or, in this case, spirituality--we are being less authentic.

However, I bet there are some lifetimes we have entered into with the specific intention of surrounding ourselves with people who we knew would try to curb certain of our authentic traits. Once we see that a natural tendency in ourselves has led to a lot of hurt for a lot of other people, it will hopefully be identified as something we would like to conquer. If I cling too strongly to excess hedonism and physical pleasure, and I've been in the habit of ruining lots of marriages, (or take your pick of any vice and insert it here), perhaps later on I would choose a life among people who I knew would try to lay on the non-authentic spirituality as a way of loosening hedonism's grip on me. Then in the lifetime after THAT my authentic self would indeed be less hedonistic. :-)

So, could have it's plusses and minuses, it seems. Human Earth School. No place else like it.

Thank you for the food for thought.

[modwiz]

There is a very fine line between judgement, and recognition. If I note non authentic behavior in a person, it is not judgement, it is recognition. It is recognition of an aspect of myself I know all too well. We are old friends. To somehow not notice this would be akin to not noticing/recognizing/judging an intruder in my house. This would be willfull blindness.http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif As in, how many people still want to hear what Drake has to say?

Cheers,
Fred

A lot of new age sociopaths hide behind the "judgement" shield. "You're being judgemental," they shriek. Like I can't tell a snarling, bad intentioned, dog from a friendly one.

Bite me! :jester:

[NancyV]

There is a very fine line between judgement, and recognition. If I note non authentic behavior in a person, it is not judgement, it is recognition. It is recognition of an aspect of myself I know all too well. We are old friends. To somehow not notice this would be akin to not noticing/recognizing/judging an intruder in my house. This would be willfull blindness.http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif As in, how many people still want to hear what Drake has to say?

Cheers,
Fred

A lot of new age sociopaths hide behind the "judgement" shield. "You're being judgemental," they shriek. Like I can't tell a snarling, bad intentioned, dog from a friendly one.

Bite me! :jester:

We are all authentic beings who put on different masks depending on the play we are involved in and the role we choose to assume. Authentic is original, real, true… There is only one original being, energy or state of awareness: Source. The authentic Source sends out the creation in a never ending cycle, a wave of energetic patterns creating this masterful and illusionary work of art in progress. We who are aware/alive in this particular vibrational frequency we call the material world are all authentic and entirely spiritual parts of the authentic Source. All beings in all vibrational frequencies/dimensions are authentic creations of and emanations from the Source.

We cannot be other than authentic and spiritual because we are the Source. When we lie, pretend, criticize, play games, etc. it does not make us one whit less authentic because the Source cannot be anything BUT authentic. Our egos simply like to compare minutiae about other seemingly separated parts of ourselves and pass trivial judgments about their behaviors. We have fun thinking we are right and they are wrong. We also like to feel guilty by thinking WE might not be authentic when we lie, pass judgments, puff up our egos or behave stupidly. This is also perfect and authentic. No one is more or less spiritual or authentic than another. We are all a part of this authentic and spiritual game of Source playing with itself.

Of course there is always at least ONE exception to everything. In this case we have Modwiz. I'm thinking he's just a little bit more authentic than the rest of us! :p

[modwiz]

Of course there is always at least ONE exception to everything. In this case we have Modwiz. I'm thinking he's just a little bit more authentic than the rest of us! :p

That is sooo judgmental. :pound:

[Fred Steeves]

Authentic?

18742

[Strat]

To sum things up, I feel strongly that the answer to our times leads directly back to the old "Know Thyself", and absolutely nothing else.

Agreed 100%.

I don't have any tattoos but I plan on getting a few and that phrase may be one of them.

[Eram]

Authentic?

18742

very authentic.

5rj_zCsOkJg

[NancyV]

Authentic?

18742
Absolutely one of the authentic and spiritual people who is the most fun for me to detest and judge harshly! :fencing:

[ThePythonicCow]

I don't have any tattoos but I plan on getting a few ...
I recommend bumper stickers instead ... you can more easily remove them, or plaster over them, or get a different car, or something like that, when your view changes again :).

[sirdipswitch]

I rest my case

[Limor Wolf]

I don't have any tattoos but I plan on getting a few ...
I recommend bumper stickers instead ... you can more easily remove them, or plaster over them, or get a different car, or something like that, when your view changes again :).

Paul, apparently not everyone has a problem with long-term commitment .
Ttattos are like a Catholic marriage, you can change your mind only when you die :rolleyes:

[another bob]

We are all authentic beings who put on different masks depending on the play we are involved in and the role we choose to assume. Authentic is original, real, true… There is only one original being, energy or state of awareness: Source. The authentic Source sends out the creation in a never ending cycle, a wave of energetic patterns creating this masterful and illusionary work of art in progress. We who are aware/alive in this particular vibrational frequency we call the material world are all authentic and entirely spiritual parts of the authentic Source. All beings in all vibrational frequencies/dimensions are authentic creations of and emanations from the Source.

We cannot be other than authentic and spiritual because we are the Source. When we lie, pretend, criticize, play games, etc. it does not make us one whit less authentic because the Source cannot be anything BUT authentic. Our egos simply like to compare minutiae about other seemingly separated parts of ourselves and pass trivial judgments about their behaviors. We have fun thinking we are right and they are wrong. We also like to feel guilty by thinking WE might not be authentic when we lie, pass judgments, puff up our egos or behave stupidly. This is also perfect and authentic. No one is more or less spiritual or authentic than another. We are all a part of this authentic and spiritual game of Source playing with itself.




Along the same lines (although somewhat mis-titled):


RytUHQ3HD8Y



Based on what I learned in the afterlife, I'd say there is no way to evaluate where a character within Source is on its spiritual evolutionary path based on anything it does while in a human. And, more importantly, only a human would want to judge such a thing because being judgmental is a uniquely human character trait.

~Nanci Danison

[Fred Steeves]

Authentic?

18742
Absolutely one of the authentic and spiritual people who is the most fun for me to detest and judge harshly! :fencing:

You do know how to thread that needle dear lady, I've gotta give it to you. http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif

Just between you and me though, don't let Bob know about your little judgement confession.(LOL)

Cheers,
Fred

[Maunagarjana]

We are all authentic beings who put on different masks depending on the play we are involved in and the role we choose to assume. Authentic is original, real, true… There is only one original being, energy or state of awareness: Source. The authentic Source sends out the creation in a never ending cycle, a wave of energetic patterns creating this masterful and illusionary work of art in progress. We who are aware/alive in this particular vibrational frequency we call the material world are all authentic and entirely spiritual parts of the authentic Source. All beings in all vibrational frequencies/dimensions are authentic creations of and emanations from the Source.

We cannot be other than authentic and spiritual because we are the Source. When we lie, pretend, criticize, play games, etc. it does not make us one whit less authentic because the Source cannot be anything BUT authentic. Our egos simply like to compare minutiae about other seemingly separated parts of ourselves and pass trivial judgments about their behaviors. We have fun thinking we are right and they are wrong. We also like to feel guilty by thinking WE might not be authentic when we lie, pass judgments, puff up our egos or behave stupidly. This is also perfect and authentic. No one is more or less spiritual or authentic than another. We are all a part of this authentic and spiritual game of Source playing with itself.

Of course there is always at least ONE exception to everything. In this case we have Modwiz. I'm thinking he's just a little bit more authentic than the rest of us! :p

Maybe so....but some people's way of manifesting their intrinsic authenticity is really annoying. :p

[modwiz]

Authentic?

18742

The revulsion and disgust I felt looking at him is authentic.

Go ahead and put Mitt, all of congress, the senate and the supreme court up in pictures and you'll get the same result from me.
:bad::bad::bad::bad::bad::bad:

[modwiz]

I rest my case

I looked, but could not find one that you made. :noidea:

[Fred Steeves]

Authentic?

18742

The revulsion and disgust I felt looking at him is authentic.

Go ahead and put Mitt, all of congress, the senate and the supreme court up in pictures and you'll get the same result from me.
:bad::bad::bad::bad::bad::bad:

Better Rad? Best I could do on short notice.

18744

[Chester]

So here goes. This has been eating at me for some time now, so I'm just going to say it.:rolleyes:(Oh boy, here he goes again LOL) I think spirituality is for the birds, and more than that, I think it's a trap. A person can meditate til the cows come home, memorize holy teachings of every sort, have powerful experiences, etc., but unless the coal of authenticity is burning hotly within, they're running in place, if not losing ground.

What do I mean exactly by authentic? The Oracle baking cookies in the original Matrix movie is authentic. Someone deeply into the dying process is likely to be authentic, or someone on death row, or someone who has truly been to war. Of course small children are authentic, as are our pets. We love them just for that don't we?

It's the realm of no games, and honesty, and the rest is dropping away like burnt flesh. I can't speak for anyone else, but it makes me sick when I see a small child who has been taught to be spiritual. Something precious has been taken away, like the ability just to be a little kid. Adults too.

What do I mean by spiritual? I don't rightly know, only that for the first time in easily a year recently, I found myself browsing the Spiritual section of Barnes And Noble to spend an old gift card. That particular realm not that long ago was my port in the storm so to speak, and now the feeling of being there again after some time was unmistakable: "Fred, you no longer belong here".

To sum things up, I feel strongly that the answer to our times leads directly back to the old "Know Thyself", and absolutely nothing else. To know one's self is to be at peace with one's self, and with that, comes peace with the world, and one's surroundings. (I'm nowhere near there btw) Anyone whose chief intent is anything other than this, is doing just fine of course, but it just means that this lifetime is likely not one of their chances to come here and remember. I think I've been through millions of those...

One more thing. Discernment between who is here to make another attempt at moving on past this plane, and who is here to spread out like a spiritual peacock, will be getting easier with noticing and practice. We've already seen this demonstrated nicely here on Avalon over the last couple of years.


Cheers Everybody, http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif
Fred

Hi Fred


The ego is the activity in a person which maintains the illusion of separation from the Source. We can see this manifest in people in terms of competition and comparison with others, with people constantly seeking to maintain that separation - my job is better, my house is better, I've got a better relationship, my phone is better etc.

After initial spiritual awakening the need for all these "things" to bolster a sense of identity is usually seen through and all the things which used to be important, no longer seem relevent.

The ego activity of maintaining separation will still remain and it will just shift from using those things to maintain its sense of self, to using spirituality. The spiritually awakened ego is a natural part of this process, everyone will go through it but the real trap is when it is not seen through.

The spiritual ego will label, judge and compare others on the spiritual path to maintain a sense of self or individual identity. The ego needs the comparison of others to remain in tact - it's the same ego activity as it has always been, its just transferred what it uses and become more subtle.

In fact it can become more stubborn to deal with at this point because the person believes that because they have had such a huge transformation in their self and life that they believe they are on the right path.

Of course they are on the right path and all these feelings of comparison and judgement of others are being stirred up within them to show them what is internally calling for attention, in terms of seeking out points of separation from the Source.

The problem arises with this process when the person, rather than dealing with the inner calling of attention, externalises this onto other people and makes it about "them" and what "they" are doing.

The truth is that everyone is having an authentic human experience, whatever they are doing. Everyone is doing what they need to be do to get where they need to go.


This has been eating at me for some time now, so I'm just going to say it.:rolleyes:(Oh boy, here he goes again LOL)
You said it here in the opening line of your post, something has been eating at you for some time? This is what is calling for your your attention and it has nothing to do with what "they" are doing. :)


Jeanette

Hi Jeanette, great post. I want to make sure no one might get the idea I have 100% transcended judgement of others, but lately I have found a sustained, significant decrease in that particular activity of my own mind. I have noticed this profound drop in judgement of others and have considered perhaps I have finally "gotten" at least some of "it." It is a strangely peaceful place. Now, I must also add that I am currently under little stress too these days. Meaning I am not under and significant pressure that I might not be able to support my family and meet my own basic needs. So I also attribute my ability to experience more peace because of this external (fortunate) circumstance.

But the key point I am trying to raise is that the last person on earth I would consider to be "spiritual" is me and yet based on my recent, sustained experience of peace that happens to coincide with this new "non-judgmental" view of others suggests that perhaps this massive ego of mine is taking a wee break?

Who knows... anyway, good thread IMO

[Anchor]

I've recently lost my self-described "enlightened Buddhist visionary" friend because

Genevieve - you win :)

Everyone is entitled to boundaries and to set them as appropriate.

I am sure that your friend is recognized and appreciated for the service she bought you.

[Fred Steeves]

I am sure that your friend is recognized and appreciated for the service she bought you.

Nice one John, unfortunately/fortunately we can get so lost in the weeds via the printed word, and language in general. George W. Bush was my personal catalyst for beginning the awakening process, because I always trusted him...Right up til the moment I didn't, when even a mind numbed, skull full of mush like me at this exact time 4 years ago, could plainly see he was a liar.

The rest of this post Anchor, is meant to be addressed to this thread at large, and not to you personally, just so you know. Your post just rattled loose a couple of things for me.

I'm very well aware that the Universe overall is functioning in exquisite synchronicity. That the "dark" should be respected just as the "light", that we should be ever so hesitant in perceiving someone as an "enemy", and that every incarnate thing, just by being here, is Divine in nature.

4 years ago, George W. did lost Fred a service that no other being on Earth could have pulled off at that time, by being a Divine Catalyst, for lack of a better term.(LOL) In the misty ancient "past" when I was a George W., surely just by me being me, helped some lost soul begin to remember their true self. While I floundered.

I'm going to leave it there for now, as an incomplete thought...

[Kiforall]

Could Divine Catalyst also be described as inflammatory? or are they the complete opposite? :dizzy::laugh:

[Flash]

Genevieve, your friend was pretty authentic and you now know exactly where she stands. That is what authenticity is about, everyone knows where everyone stands and it is not always pretty. But it is the necessary step for evolution imho.

You were also very authentic expressing your fundamental need, and this is where you stand. Having expressed it before would probably have changed the relationship years ago.

A few years ago, I was friend for 20 years with someone whom I knew was drinking, and whom I knew had a very stubborn and judgemental attitude, she is like that. I had talk with her about the drinking habit, which she would deny, me explaining that her defense was so vehement and the defense of her 2 drinking bodies, her "best friends" was so rude, that it was the proof to me a problem existed.

She was more and more calling me after being drunk, or making a nice birthday dinner for me, but getting drunk during the dinner. When drunk, she would start putting me down every time she could. At that birthday dinner, I finally got enough, and left. She was very angry, telling me I was not educated, she had prepared the dinner for me, and i was a bitch.

I tried to reach her a few time, but gave up, she would stubbornly not respond, even if I knew she was hurt. Well, 5 years later, this last May, she called me to have news. I returned the call. We never talk about her drinking, but:
- she is not more friend with her drinking bodies
- I haven't seen her drunk,
- She has not called me drund, yet called me after dinner, but straight (before she would have been drunk by 7hPM)
- We are taking walks every Sunday and enjoying our conversations and time.
- We briefly discussed the birthday party and the whole putting down and concluded it was from the past and that we would go forward.

I do not know what will happen, but being authentic most probably helped her in recovery.

In conclusion Genevieve, the situation may still change, one cannot know, remaining open, without judgement, just being authentic will make a difference. I think.

[Flash]

Back down to earth 3D Nancy V. We may all be authentic beings from Source, but here and now, we often chose not to be, putting masks on as you say. Authenticity IS taking off the masks, whichever they are, such as gently telling a friend to call us prior to knocking our door, such as telling a friend that being put down is effecting you and putting down your conditions, such as being loving and caring, or being a true exposed psychopath if you are one. THere is no judgment in authenticity, things are as they are. Choices we make show up right away (choice of being away from Source for example).

We are putting masks on to avoid judgment, to avoid misery, in the old time to avoid having our head chop off by the King. Inauthenticity is a survival mechanism of the body and ego and is based on fear, for us and for the psychos of this world. I think it is still useful to put a mask on sometimes, but we have to know we are putting it on for survival or to ease a situation. Consciousness about when and where one can be free and authentic and when not is essential in this world is where true choice reside. But consciousness without fear is better. This is called discernment.

Authenticity and consciousness are linked. Discernment is necessary for its application (until we are all of us evolved). Authenticity is, for me, an inner state that I wish to share with those around me. It is my choice to chose the environments favoring it or not, as long as I am consciously doing it (still need a lot of practice in my case).

[Anchor]

A lot of new age sociopaths hide behind the "judgement" shield. "You're being judgemental," they shriek. Like I can't tell a snarling, bad intentioned, dog from a friendly one.

Bite me! :jester:

Yes, well the main dividing line as I see it is if the judgement is solicited or not.

Unsolicited judgement is very often unwelcome, with no regard for its quality either!

Not always, but I try not to offer unsolicited judgement, but if I am asked - well then this changes everything.

If people judge me though, even though I might not like it - its really a challenge for me to see if I can follow my own advice which is to consider the judgement given to me by other people as friendly advice, but the only judgements I will really trust are the judgements I make about myself.


Does my bum look big in this?

[WHOMADEGOD]

When does an observation become a judgement?

[Anchor]

When does an observation become a judgement?

I think that the answer is that it happens when you become attached in some way to that which is observed. (Even if that attachment is very short lived).

Judgement must involve the intellect IMO.

[Beren]

An observer sees all angles and all facts or most of them and lays it out with caution and care.
Judgement is born in this:

You see a problem in someone's life. You approach it with care and essentially good vibe and lay it out- truthfully and wholly.
That's an observation.

Same thing as above and the same facts but you approach with cynicism , sarcasm and negative vibe- that's judgement.

Same thing but two different states of mind and being.

[WHOMADEGOD]

As you previously touched upon, one man's observation can be interpreted as a judgement. That in turn can generate a return judgement so the trick is to observe judgements too.

Easier said than done, but a realisation is an earnest start.

Great replies Anchor and Beren, thank you.

Mark

[Beren]

As you previously touched upon, one man's observation can be interpreted as a judgement. That in turn can generate a return judgement so the trick is to observe judgements too.

Easier said than done, but a realisation is an earnest start.

Great replies Anchor and Beren, thank you.

Mark


You're welcome!

It always depends what do you want to do with an information or facts of which you know of.
Use it or abuse it.

If someone reacts badly to an observation then they will return, as Flash here described earlier, and be thankful.
If it was judgement ,the judged will almost always stay away from you. No matter of time span after the incident.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Fred ,
would you agree that being authentic is always remembering who you are and who others are despite the masks their or your soul is wearing occasionally?

[Fred Steeves]

would you agree that being authentic is always remembering who you are and who others are despite the masks their or your soul is wearing occasionally?

Well now we're getting down to the nitty gritty, aren't we Beren? Very good question, and it leads me right back to where I was forced to leave off last night when saying this:


I'm going to leave it there for now, as an incomplete thought...

Obviously we're in agreement, many of us atleast, that "knowing thyself" is essential. Let me make a stab at it as simplistic as I can in metaphor, like a third grade teacher at the chalkboard, for my own benefit as well.(LOL)

Every soul breathed into life on the outbreath of Creator is authentic and self knowing, as they are equal to Creator by birthright, same as a human baby is to it's parents. I want that to be crystal clear, there is no judgement of souls going on here. However, from that point outward, it turns into honky gone haywire.(LOL) In Jesus' Parable Of The Lost Son, the father rushes to greet the returning wayward son, and to prepare the biggest banquet he can muster to both honor and welcome him home. He couldn't have cared less what his son had done during his lost and wandering years, because he had realized the error of his ways, and had long last returned home.

We are all that "lost son", in varying stages of the journey. When any given "lost son" begins to remember who they really are, there is a recognition of how they are now somewhat different from those around them. As he packs his bags to return home, he honors those still flitting about, pretending to be something that they aren't, while at the same time knowing that he no longer belongs amongst them. He is now on the road of returning to being his true authentic self, and he would be a fool to pause, and give a listen to whoever the big spiritual guru happened to be popular in that time and place.

[Tony]

Isn't it just a question of reality?

[lookbeyond]

Trouble is, the father forgave the wayward son, but his brother was resentful, the Bible story doesnt go on to continue the story how there was a rift now in the family, friends got involved, took sides, the prodigal son afterwards became the victim of rumour and gossip, became depressed because even though he had been "forgiven" he had still been judged and condemned by the "world"

[Swan]

When does an observation become a judgement?

When you know that they are wrong, and you are right. Observation is coming from a neutral stance. ( With your heart and mind open to the possiblity that they might well be right, and you wrong...)

I can be very judgemental. I have found though that when I label somebodies behavior as wrong, I often later find myself in a similar position. As if by judging it I am expressing a need to experience it.

There´s alot to be said about walking in somebodies shoes before judging.

[Tony]

Images on a wall, on a TV screen, in the mind...what is the difference?

It's all about seeing clearly - seeing the truth behind the truth.

h-DRdTsnbr0

[Fred Steeves]

That story and video would certainly be authentic Tony. IMO.

[Fred Steeves]

Images on a wall, on a TV screen, in the mind...what is the difference?

It's all about seeing clearly - seeing the truth behind the truth.

h-DRdTsnbr0

Maybe the old man in the story, which is one of my favorites by the way Tony, is merely seeing the lad through graduating from kindergarden, to the first grade so to speak. Hopefully, the education/remembrance process doesn't stop at that particular "truth" he's just discovered.

The next one is going to blow his fragile eggshell mind open just as much, if not even a lot more. He'd best get used to it. http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif

[latshaw]

ditto! :whoo: