Condemning religions.

[Tony]

Condemning religions.

Over the past few weeks, there have been more and more negative threads about religion – other people's faith. If one chooses to condemn another's faith, the intelligent thing to do is to explain why, and not just keep saying 'mind control'. More importantly, there needs to be an explanation of what you intend to put in its place that you know is better for that person. Claiming that they have a belief system but that you do not, is proof that you have a belief system...!

Some people choose religion, some science, some both. Some do not know, some do not care.
Every sentient being finds their own way of coping with life. We may not agree with them, but we do not have the right to show disdain towards them: that shows a feeling of superiority. Well, we can...but that is just perpetuating a world of hatred.

In order to have an intelligent discussion, one has to be able to put forward something better than the thing one is condemning. One needs to attract, use logic, enrich, show that one has a heart and that one is tolerant and generous. After all, we should practise what we preach.

Personally, I have a problem with religions, when they seem ritualistic and dogmatic, but I reason that that is all a person can cope with. The esoteric side of faith takes a lot of work, study, practice and personal, empirical experience. This is very challenging, and not everyone is able to take that path.

Religion is just a set of ideas about ourselves and the universe. There are many to choose from.
I chose Buddhism (which I actually consider to be a spiritual science), but within that, there about fifteen different traditions, some I do not quite agree with. But that is only to do with a way of understanding a certain topic at a certain subtle level. To tell you the truth, I do not even agree with those who are in my chosen tradition...but that is a problem I have with human beings! Humans are human everywhere.

As humans, we are a self cherishing lot. We are quick to find fault, and fall into disagreement, because of this thing called “me”! We are all made of many different shapes and sizes: t doesn't matter whether we are scientists, naturists, French, vegetarian, Pleiadian, reptilian, believe in God... we are all governed by a self-made identification.

Everyone who is sentient is biased in some way...and it is generally towards “me”or “my group”.

You may not need a religion, but you still have a belief system all of your own. Condemning others to make yourself look better and more righteous stands out a mile. In this world of strife, it is difficult enough for us to get along, and merely adding to this strife is futile (unless you are a member of an illuminati unconscious sub-division...!)

If we blame the mindset of an organisation, then we have also to blame conspiracy forums for mistrusting everything. We all will have to admit that we have bought into some very strange, unproven ideas over the years! An organisation will have rules to go by: if one is intelligent one can work within that system (or choose to stay in a cave). Just being alive means we are within some kind of system.

Different systems have different methods of approaching inner peace. There are many levels of inner peace: some are temporary, while some are a little more permanent. If it is true that we have had many lifetimes, then the picture of our progress – or lack of - is much larger.
Some of us take time to digest the steps to complete understanding.
Others may be near the end of their journey.
Anything can appear in those last moments to test us, and it is not for others to interfere...maybe 'you' are their last obstacle!

Of course, as in every other aspect of life, power can corrupt. But it corrupts the corruptors.
The participants then have a choice to move on and look for something more satisfying: we just have to be aware. Our life is in our hands.


Yours, sad but joyous,
Tony

[greybeard]

For myself I am not drawn to any religion however I accept that a lot of people get support, security, fellowship, in being part of a religious way.
Each to their own.
Chris

[ROMANWKT]

Hi Tony

Agree with everything you say, but as we move on seeking what may really be the truth as best we can, on that road we find inconsistencies in all religions and philosophies, so when somebody does criticize, it better be for a good reason.

I have given the reason, do you have time to read it? http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?51214-Mutant-humanity

Regards as always

roman

[Billy]

Well said Tony. This is what came to me in 1985.




She then said. In God there is no religion, religion is man made and brings division, there is no division in God, But at the same time please have respect for All religions.
End Quote:

I have lived my life with this message ever since.




Peace be with you.

[13th Warrior]

I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean
Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box
Religion is the smile on a dog

I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep

What I am is what I am
Are you what you are - or what?

I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean
Philosophy is a walk on the slippery rocks
Religion is a light in the fog

I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep

What I am is what I am
Are you what you are - or what?
Don't let me get too deep
Read more at http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/74096/#2XmWSSh1qg2Zm8JO.99


tDl3bdE3YQA

[Tony]

The secret of secrets is,....is........is.....pure awareness, pure knowing, or anything you wish to call it. You can call it GOD or NO GOD, it makes no difference to the purity of pure awareness. Pure awareness is God, and it is unconditional loving. However 'it' being pure experience has no identity.

You are it which you seek. It is not something separate from your pure awareness.

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."




Always look for the truth behind the truth.
Tony

[wobbegong]

...
More importantly, there needs to be an explanation of what you intend to put in its place that you know is better for that person.
I agree with most of what you said Tony, especially your phrase I quoted...and thanks for this food for thought, to say the least.
Personally I am only against any religion that has been fabricated with the purpose of leveraging on human desires and expectations in order to gain control.
Unfortunately, even though I believe that the true religions of the world have been initiated by (humans driven by) some unseen divine force, over the millenia there have been many injections of the above mentioned "ingredient"...manipulation, control etc. So it's a pretty tricky subject IMO and what you say about being aware is paramount.

[markpierre]

Hi Tony

Agree with everything you say, but as we move on seeking what may really be the truth as best we can, on that road we find inconsistencies in all religions and philosophies, so when somebody does criticize, it better be for a good reason.

I have given the reason, do you have time to read it? http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?51214-Mutant-humanity

Regards as always

roman

That's an interesting looking book. But it's all irrelevant to the purpose of a lifetime invested in any belief.
How many times do you suppose we engaged in all the awful things that we blame religion for, when we should have blamed ourselves.
Still won't.

Religion is one man waking up. Religions are how mankind learns to consider his Soul, for better or worse. That's all it's meant to be.
What's ahead is what's been learned in every experience that you've ever had. Why would anyone want to take that away from someone else?

If you think your Self chose poorly when it manifested as your body however genetically dubious, remember that Self isn't a body.
Meet yourSelf and find that out. Any religion can tell you that much.

[Tony]

...
More importantly, there needs to be an explanation of what you intend to put in its place that you know is better for that person.
I agree with most of what you said Tony, especially your phrase I quoted...and thanks for this food for thought, to say the least.
Personally I am only against any religion that has been fabricated with the purpose of leveraging on human desires and expectations in order to gain control.
Unfortunately, even though I believe that the true religions of the world have been initiated by (humans driven by) some unseen divine force, over the millenia there have been many injections of the above mentioned "ingredient"...manipulation, control etc. So it's a pretty tricky subject IMO and what you say about being aware is paramount.

Hello wobbegong,

I'm afraid you are right!
There is evil in the universe. Throughout the ages, demons have been portrayed and written about...fallen angels!

From my own chosen tradition it goes like this. Fallen angels / 'mara' / demons, are practitioner who acquired certain levels of skill, but never completed their training, they abuse their power, and so hates anyone who practises purity. They hate compassion. Whenever we like or dislike something, we attract demons. When we remain in equilibrium we cannot be touched, because we are then beyond likes and dislikes. But we are always in danger of falling into an ambush by our own emotions.

I know it's a cliche but...truth is beauty, beauty is truth.

In a way the demons are part of the path, if we react to them, we are caught. But understanding their presence can enhance our practice. They do not have the power they want us to think they have. I asked my teacher about what to do about demons, he said, "rest in pure awareness/emptiness."

So demons fed off our emotions, or try to cause trouble for practitioners. As a practitioner I welcome them, they brighten the mind!
It's a bit like the New World Order, they in fact help us, precisely because we are now more aware of them, and what they are about.

Their truth has no beauty.


Tony

[Kryztian]

There are certainly reasons to be critical of religions, but condemning them is another matter. I feel especially free to criticize my own religion, Roman Catholicism, and there is certainly a lot there worthy of critical of - please go right ahead, you may find me in complete agreement, and that my negative criticism goes above and beyond yours.

What I find objectionable and even infantile is that you can reject and condemn a religion and it's adherents based on a few of its faults, as if I know one or two of your personal faults and can reject you as a person. The people most harmed by these one-dimensional views of religion are the ones that hold them.

Some people have to realize that being religious does not give you a monolithic view of the universe. It's no longer the Middle Ages. Just because some of us who describe ourselves as belonging to a certain faith, does not mean we have an absolutist world view defined by one institution. We know about science, we find meaning in the precepts of other religions, we might even admire atheism in some ways. We are open to other ideas contrary and critical of our religion and even find it possible that someday we might give it up.

I believe it's Jordan Maxwell who states "God is too big for one religion" and I believe GOD is even greater than ALL of our religions. But there isn't enough time to practice more than one or two religions in a lifetime, and I find that I get a lot out of my practice. There is more than just theology and dogma - there is architecture, music, liturgy, history, philosophy, and it is a place of community to meet and get involved with some of the diverse beings that walk this planet.

Critically evaluate my religion and others, PLEASE DO. But if you outright condemn it you are making yourself blind to part of the truth and beauty of the universe.

[Prodigal Son]

All it takes is for the mind to think that God is outside of oneself and a person is hopelessly impotent and will never wake up. All religions contain this core truth but the orthodox corrupted interpretation of them has created Babel (Babble), and its been that way for a very long time. Its a nefarious thing for the religious leaders to have done but what else is new. They can't have people waking up, it would be the end of their rule. And then with the fluoride and whatever they're spraying up there we have an entire race pretty much in a coma that will never be a threat to the Old World Order. I do believe though that the new energies will reverse the process rather quickly for those who know they're asleep. For those who don't, all I can say is Dream On.

[Tony]

We are all sleep walkers and day dreamers, more or less.

All around us are sleep walkers and day dreamers, unconsciously doing the bidding of negative forces. “I will be done.” As it is unconscious, much compassion is needed. No one wants to be evil and unhappy, they just cannot help themselves. As we have all been there, we can empathise with them, and show compassion.

Evil doers suffer, and do not know how to escape their suffering. We see all around us people trying to maintain a certain life style, proving to themselves that they are better than others. In this sleep walker day dreamer world we need to protect ourselves, with understanding, the ability to know, and a degree of purity. Purity meaning even having a glimpse of pure awareness.

However this very glimpse of pure awareness, give us a little power, and can easily corrupt us!
That is why we have to be on the lookout for self deception, that is why compassion for others is the antidote.

One doesn't normally talk about one's personal practices and experiences in the Dharma, as it is so easily misunderstood, and can cause conflict, but maybe this will give some insight into dealing with negativity. Everyday in one of my practices I repeat these words, it's from a Heruka wrathful deity practice:

“Clear away the obstacles of physical sickness, evil forces, misdeeds and obscurations....clear away speech obscurations, stuttering and muteness....pacify the mental obscurations, insanity, strokes and illness...Moreover, turn away sorcery and evil spells...Annihilate viciousness and ill-will....Pacify all illness, negative forces and obstacles....Perform the activity of reducing animosity and obstructing forces to dust...Turn away all black magic and evil spells.”

It says some nice things as well, but you get the idea of how seriously the ancients took negative forces.

My teacher gave me this practice as I was a very, very very angry boy!

Yours no longer angry,
Tony

[Arrowwind]

Some people have to realize that being religious does not give you a monolithic view of the universe. It's no longer the Middle Ages. Just because some of us who describe ourselves as belonging to a certain faith, does not mean we have an absolutist world view defined by one institution. We know about science, we find meaning in the precepts of other religions, we might even admire atheism in some ways. We are open to other ideas contrary and critical of our religion and even find it possible that someday we might give it up.

I believe it's Jordan Maxwell who states "God is too big for one religion" and I believe GOD is even greater than ALL of our religions. But there isn't enough time to practice more than one or two religions in a lifetime, and I find that I get a lot out of my practice. There is more than just theology and dogma - there is architecture, music, liturgy, history, philosophy, and it is a place of community to meet and get involved with some of the diverse beings that walk this planet.

I agree with you. New persectives are springing out of old religous formats, even in Catholicism from amongst it's more enlightened members.

But I will work at revealing those religions or aspects of religions or works of religious teachers that teach people hatered and separation. That teach children to be psychotic and closed minded, that teach repression and abuse, that teach original sin and instill fear.

This is still the foundation of many religious teachings... and I will not stand silent in its face.

[sirdipswitch]

You will all have a good laugh,
when you find out who you really are.

[Fred Steeves]

You will all have a good laugh,
when you find out who you really are.

I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, and I love a good laugh. Now bracing for full disclosure dear sir, let's not be cryptic. http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif

Cheers,
Fred

[GloriousPoetry]

The color of faith doesn't have a name its inner gaze shines on an amazing grace...

Amen

[Arrowwind]

Faith eh? Faith in what?

I know someone who's faith it is to decry all those who don't believe in Jesus Christ and in their heart of hearts KNOWS that those who do not will burn in hell.

It was not amazing grace that got spewn all over me and my husband when we attended the funeral of a man I cared for in the last two months of his life... The Christians were all over him in his weakened state in his last days trying to get him to accept Jesus Christ into his life before he died so he could be saved.

When we were alone and he was close to death he told me what they had been doing to him when I wasn't around. He said that he just went along with them so they would leave him alone.

When I left that church that day after the funeral I had to wash the psychic pollution off of me...it felt more like fear, condemnation and hatred towards my very being for being who I am.

Faith: a belief in something without proof. Kinda like those farmers who believe monsanto products are good for food production or so many many other things.

[kreagle]

pie'n'eal,

Thanks for the thread, my friend. I don't mind admitting that when I 'originally' viewed the headline for this topic I instinctively recoiled in anguish as I said to myself,......"oh boy, here we go again! Just what we need,....another 'witch-hunt' to seek out and destroy anything resembling religion."

I will have to admit that I was pleasantly surprised to find that my 'original fears' were somewhat unfounded, ( for now), and to personally thank you for your seemingly 'balanced' view on this subject. More often than not, humanity, in general, is guilty of 'throwing the baby out with the bath water', when it comes to dealing with religion. It's never been the fault of God that the 'term' religion has become what it is today, for that 'honor' rests squarely on the shoulders of mankind and his never ending wicked agendas. God made religion 'pure', ( and It still is),......and mankind has, once again, taken something that was intended to be 'pure, productive, and positive' and completely 'polluting, poisoning, and polarizing' it.

Once again, God's Word informs us that 'pure religion' exists!,......but it's up to you and I to 'find it!'


James 1:26-27 (KJV)

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.


The 'responsibility' that each one of us has to 'seek and find' the 'pure religious experience' that God's Word speaks of is further highlighted by the 'harsh reality' that our friend, Kryztian, points out,( in part),........

per Kryztian.......

I believe it's Jordan Maxwell who states "God is too big for one religion" and I believe GOD is even greater than ALL of our religions. But there isn't enough time to practice more than one or two religions in a lifetime,........

In light of this 'sobering truth',.......( "there isn't enough time to practice more than one or two religions in a lifetime"), how much more important must it be to 'get it right the first time!',....or at least as close as possible,.....the 'sooner the better!'

Now, so that no one misunderstands, or misinterprets, what I am saying here, I refer back to the title of the OP,.....'Condemning religion(s)'

One 'should notice' that it is the 'plurality of religions' that has fostered this problem to begin with. This, through the wicked agendas of mankind, has fueled this 'uncontrollable fire' from the onset, and will continue to do so until it has 'consumed every burnable resource at it's disposal', namely our 'chance at salvation!'

Religion,......or more adequately 'pure religion', as defined by God, is recorded in the 'singular context' and as such should always be treated in a 'singular' manner.

(in conclusion)

One might gather that I am in 'favor of condemning religion(s)', based upon the above statements I have made, but in reality that's the 'furthest thing from my mind!' In order to do that I would have to be opposed to our United States Constitution which protects the rights of 'all religion(s)', within the borders of our great nation. Even God, Himself would 'frown upon that',.......and so do I.

Condemning religion(s)?,........undeniably NO!

Personally 'selecting' religion,....a 'pure religion', as Biblically defined?,......unquestionably YES!!!



Your brother, friend, and servant,.....kreagle

[GloriousPoetry]

Faith in my inner awakenings....or experiencing faith as a sublimating push in life that gives you the rhythmic experience of living despite all the dark moments one experiences in this world. Melting into grace where I caress the softness of my heart's tender gaze and where there is no end nor beginning to attend love fulfills itself in my inner most ways. Therefore the color of faith has no name since what I experience is a faith born inside of me.

Faith is a belief in something without proof....for who?

There are all types of people in this world who give names to their understanding of faith, some of these people are beautiful people while others are ugly people.
Some people choose to wear the coat of religion while others don't wear it but those not wearing the coat of religion can be just as ugly too.

Many Blessings,
Gloria

[S-L]

This is an interesting thread.

I too have issues with organized religions that place more importance on pageantry and moralism than finding your inner Knowledge. I accept the idea that not everyone is currently ready to undertake the preparation necessary to attain that inner light. At least not in this lifetime. That's fine; how can it be otherwise?

I think an interesting way to approach this topic would be to try and imagine what this world would be like without religions. It would be useful, for the sake of discussion, that we temporarily agree that all major religions come from a Divine Source and were gifted to humanity to be of benefit to us.

The question arises: why was Christianity/Islam/Buddhism/etc gifted to humanity at that particular time and place? What was the Divine intention behind it? Did it ultimately make the world a better place? What if it never arose? What would the world look like then?

It's very easy to look back in history and point out the crimes and corruptions of any major religion. I don't deny them. Can you say for certain what the world would look like without them? I don't hold these answers, but I like looking at it from this perspective. It's like taking out all spiders from the ecosystem because you don't like spiders. Are you really sure you want to do that?

Having said that, a more interesting thread of discussion is this:

If God was to create a new religion for the world to help humanity in this great time of need (earth changes, environmental collapse, worldwide economic collapse, intervention from Alien species, etc.)... what would it look like? what would it focus on? would people care?

[Rocky_Shorz]

what is the difference between condemning religions and having them condemning you?

being a Spiritual being should put you far above such pettiness...

by condemning them, you are hurting the Spiritual beings that have gathered in faith...

to each their own is something we should all live by...

[Tony]

what is the difference between condemning religions and having them condemning you?

being a Spiritual being should put you far above such pettiness...

by condemning them, you are hurting the Spiritual beings that have gathered in faith...

to each their own is something we should all live by...


Good evening Rocky,

If a religion condemns, it's says something about the religion. The hallmark has to be compassion, compassion, compassion.
Thinking about it, if someone condemns us, it give us a chance to see how confident we are in our own understanding!

I've been kicked out of spiritual centres, and it has only helped...to grow up. In interviews with lamas I use to ask, "Do I have to be like them?" Meaning the other students. It took me some time not to ask that question again!!

You are right each to their own.



All the best,
Tony

[Rocky_Shorz]

I taught a Pastor how to Pray for healing, he has always known there is more to what we've been taught...

the whole world is evolving, but saying he is a bad man is wrong, he has spent his whole life helping others...

the only evil, is those "using" religion to control the populous...

most have no spirit or belief...

when someone condemns me, I just look at them and smile...

if they only knew the truth...

[GloriousPoetry]

Great Post S-L

I think that if God (Source) was to create a new religion for the world to help humanity during this harsh time on earth it would be called "The Soul of the World." We humans would worship and praise mother earth's beauty and its vibrations in all directions while learning to redeem the demarcation of what becomes seen between the generation of physical formation and regeneration of spiritual sensation.

Many Blessings,
GLORIA

[TOTHE]

I suspend judgments on all religions personally, however I relish the the experience to perceive them and all their glory. After all I am a conscious aspect of the greater I AM currently occupying this body in this particular lifetime..en-souled being. When I pass on from here all my genetic memories will have all the religious strife that I have perceived down here to pass on to my soul who is a lot smarter than me anyway. Since my singularity of soul has been around from the time of The Big Bang and through millions of lives I sure hope it is a lot wiser than me as it watches me play the game of consciousness down here on Earth. I wonder how many times I had to repeat class?

My meditation is self induced psychosis. I am my own psychiatrist so to speak. I always now pretend, daydream, visualize that I am living and walking in my divinity. I learned that thought directs matter, where the focus goes energy flows. Example: for the last couple of years I wanted access to quality organic foods. Four months ago Trader Joe’s on Wolf Road in Colonie, NY opened within walking distance of where I live. I am creating my reality.

To keep this post on topic of “The God Wars” & religion, here is what I wrote on another Avalon thread:


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?49864-Just-a-thought......God-Exists&p=554489#post554489
About 3 years ago I realized I Am. It was so simple too: consciousness is I Am.
About 1 year ago I realized I reincarnated by choice from the Creator Gods to one notch below, below them as “Human” 18 months before events of August, 1945. What a mess I got myself in.
Sure enough like any I Am singularity: I created a bunch load of non physical attachments called “aspects” of myself. And I and my other brother & sister singular seeds of consciousness have been doing this from time of the ‘Big Bang’.

Some of my aspects think I am an idiot an won’t have anything to do with me.
Other of my aspects have been distorted by the parasitic sorcerers doing and up to their trans-dimensional old tricks.
Most of my aspects help me out in my dreams and intuition pointing me the way to remember.
They tell me to take better care of the body & mind because other than my own aspects don’t want me to remember and are inflicting damage to me. Other than that I have to figure my own way through this war being waged on a psychic level above and physical level below.

The God wars above reflect here and now on the physical 3-D Earth and massive Human Collective Consciousness in residence. So happens above happens below.
I volunteered for this? This all for the experience? You can die down here! Shot at, murdered, enslaved, eaten alive by bacteria, poisoned, starved, tortured and even buried alive.
I must have been the best to be allowed to come here.
After all I AM anyway, I love all and feel loved.
All is good with creation above, all that is happening here means all is well & good with creation.

To all who read this possibly psychotic rambling: I send you Love , tenacity, health and courage.

[Tony]

All we need is an open mind and an open heart.....= Fearless Dignity!