Thorium would sensibly be the way to go

[steve_a]

Hi Everybody,

Now the cat is out of the bag I'm sure there will be a lot of pressure put on world governments from both sides of the energy business, from oil producers wanting to keep this stuff hidden to green earthers who would probably want this stuff to be exploited. The 'stuff' is called Thorium and apparently it's much safer than uranium - it cleans its' own waste, is cheaper - it's almost free, in abundance and two hundred times more powerful than uranium.

Check out the article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/7970619/Obama-could-kill-fossil-fuels-overnight-with-a-nuclear-dash-for-thorium.html

Best regards,

Steve

[Anchor]

I have my doubts as to the energy solution being nuclear based, but man that was a good article. Ignoring the technology - just the idea of essentially free energy in a thorough mainstream media article is a pretty good development!

I love the comments on it as well - some are superbly cynical :D - demonstrateing a real awareness of the wider issues.

John..

[Ixopoborn]

Thanks Steve - I would have missed that completely except for your post. Hopefully, we will be able to jump over the need for Thorium development and move directly to so called "free energy". The existence of Thorium as a viable alternative to uranium nuclear underscores the general subterfuge which exists in media coverage of this and other topics of central importance to our energy future.

This information underscores the need to keep pushing for more and more people to wake up to our reality and push for full disclosure in 2010.

[Fredkc]

Dr Rubbia says a tonne of the silvery metal – named after the Norse god of thunder, who also gave us Thor’s day or Thursday - produces as much energy as 200 tonnes of uranium, or 3,500,000 tonnes of coal. A mere fistful would light London for a week.

Thorium eats its own hazardous waste. It can even scavenge the plutonium left by uranium reactors, acting as an eco-cleaner. "It’s the Big One," said Kirk Sorensen, a former NASA rocket engineer and now chief nuclear technologist at Teledyne Brown Engineering.

"Once you start looking more closely, it blows your mind away. You can run civilisation on thorium for hundreds of thousands of years, and it’s essentially free. You don’t have to deal with uranium cartels," he said.

Thorium is so common that miners treat it as a nuisance, a radioactive by-product if they try to dig up rare earth metals. The US and Australia are full of the stuff. So are the granite rocks of Cornwall. You do not need much: all is potentially usable as fuel, compared to just 0.7pc for uranium.
[...]
Nuclear power could become routine and unthreatening. But first there is the barrier of establishment prejudice.

The global energy crunch needs equal "action". If it works, Manhattan II could restore American optimism and strategic leadership at a stroke: if not, it is a boost for US science and surely a more fruitful way to pull the US out of perma-slump than scattershot stimulus.

So... until someone figures out how to make money with "Free", perhaps we can settle for "dirt cheap". I'd say the US economy is about ready for it.
Fred

[Luke]

Dirt cheap is helluva way to go.

But you all know ramifications. No govt/system funds would ever go into research that supports easily obtainable/personal solutions.
Every solution that threatens centrally controlled power is direct threat to all powerful men on this planet and will be treated accordingly.
Even pursuing theoretical ways for such tech is forbidden, and will be unlit system lasts.
Remember: manhattan project was govt one, and war one to that. Designed to create weapons. normal reactors were created before that, By Fremi at Chicago University in 1942 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Pile-1). Call for new "project manhattan" is then a mental trap. Never, ever such project would work towards personal freedom.
Only solution is to create needed technology ourselves, outside limitations of the system. Quite tough, but doable ... but wait , isn't thorium "controlled substance", due it's radioactivity? .. then kiss your free/cheap energy goodbye, at least any official way to it.

Earth is "Occupied territory". Time to act keeping this crucial fact in mind.

Btw: look carefully at "rare earth elements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element)" that thorium is byproduct of. 97% current annual world production comes from China (http://dailyreckoning.com/another-chinese-resource-grab), and these are crucial for any electronic technology. Control this and you control electronics. Funny, Isn't it?

[Carmody]

You are making me think of the Ex-US general who started the world's first artificial diamond factory.

Double walls, double fences, and 10,000% military hard-armed protection/security forces at the site. Just to prevent direct interference and/or malfeasance by the DeBeers/Rhodes/etc crew.

You would have to come into it.....at least that hard and that forcefully, for the people and forces you'd be messing with would make the DeBeers crew look like a bunch of pikers.

[Carmody]

Dirt cheap is helluva way to go.

But you all know ramifications. No govt/system funds would ever go into research that supports easily obtainable/personal solutions.
Every solution that threatens centrally controlled power is direct threat to all powerful men on this planet and will be treated accordingly.
Even pursuing theoretical ways for such tech is forbidden, and will be unlit system lasts.
Remember: manhattan project was govt one, and war one to that. Designed to create weapons. normal reactors were created before that, By Fremi at Chicago University in 1942 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Pile-1). Call for new "project manhattan" is then a mental trap. Never, ever such project would work towards personal freedom.
Only solution is to create needed technology ourselves, outside limitations of the system. Quite tough, but doable ... but wait , isn't thorium "controlled substance", due it's radioactivity? .. then kiss your free/cheap energy goodbye, at least any official way to it.

Earth is "Occupied territory". Time to act keeping this crucial fact in mind.

Btw: look carefully at "rare earth elements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element)" that thorium is byproduct of. 97% current annual world production comes from China (http://dailyreckoning.com/another-chinese-resource-grab), and these are crucial for any electronic technology. Control this and you control electronics. Funny, Isn't it?

Much of it is available in the ground in other countries, it is just not being harvested as the costs are too low due to Chinese production standards and costs being what they are. The Chinese, for example, are buying up similar resources in other countries in order to control those facilities as well.

Lots of thorium in Canada and the US. See the wiki on Thorium:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium


China isn't even on the list.

the top four are Brazil, Turkey, India, and the US.

[steve_a]

Hi Carmody,

The Chinese are buying up (and have been doing for many years now) a load of rutilated quartz from Brazil taking it out as iron ore. Why? because iron ore is a fraction of the cost of quartz so the taxes are none existent. Of course back handers help at the critical points of the journey.

That's big business for you....

Best regards,

Steve

[Luke]

First let me clarify: China produces 97% of rare earth elements, not thorium.

I've dug out some data, and fact is, sadly, the Thorium is hyped up. Every technology involving it is using U233 element too, with very advanced chemical preprocessing needed. Known fuel cycles do involve materials with weapon potential. And the most promising technology, Molten-salt reactor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor), is not something you could fit in your backyard:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Molten_Salt_Reactor.svg
Another cul-the-sack if you ask me. Sure system could use that card to delude some do-gooders, but that is not a gamechanger at all.

OT
Brazil/quartz situation is not only one. Currently there are raw material deposits pillaged from Africa in similar manner, due "governments" being owned by Chinese companies, with exception of Nigeria and some other countries which is owned by western companies. And all of them are only interested in pillaging. Neo-colonialism at it's worst. And now Chinese cash is flowing into Iraq and Afghanistan buying what Americans were unable to obtain by force. And do not forget Iran. From what I see it's quite similar resource grab Japan tried to do on the verge of WWII.
/OT

[GlassSteagallfan]

5458

While we in the west 'go green' with propellers and solar panels, the pacific region is embracing the latest technology in energy. (click the map for larger view)


The Importance of the Development of Thorium as Nuclear Fuel
www.larouchepac.com/node/15639

Japan Developing Its Own Thorium Reactor
www.larouchepac.com/node/16025

China Launching Thorium-fueled Nuclear System
www.larouchepac.com/node/17409

[sigma6]

A library of links on Thorium:

Kirk Sorensen - TEDxYYC - Thorium
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2vzotsvvkw

Kirk Sorenson - Thorium Molten-Salt Reactor (TMSR): Why Didn't This Happen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbyr7jZOllI

Kirk Sorenson - LFTR in 5 Minutes - THORIUM REMIX 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbucAwOT2Sc

Kirk Sorenson - Energy From Thorium:
A Nuclear Waste Burning Liquid Salt Thorium Reactor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZR0UKxNPh8

Joe Bonometti - Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor (LFTR): What Fusion Wanted To Be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHs2Ugxo7-8&feature=relmfu

David LeBlanc - Liquid Fluoride Reactors: A New Beginning for an Old Idea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F0tUDJ35So

Robert Hargrave - Aim High: Using Thorium Energy to Address Environmental Problems
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgKfS74hVvQ&feature=related

The Thorium Dream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbGZ_Y-xkPM

[Sidney]

Hey, heres a thought.. How about lets stop making bombs, and stop having wars, and give our kids, (ok grand kids, probably too late for our kids) a planet that will provide them with clean air water and food.

[GlassSteagallfan]

Thorium Will Increase Energy Resources By 155,000 Years, Says India's Banerjee

March 11, 2010 • 11:32AM

The Paris International Conference on Access to Civil Nuclear Energy focussed on examining future energy needs and the different kinds of nuclear technologies to deal with those needs, both now and in the future. Indeed, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) expects energy demand to increase by 40% by 2030. Dr. Khaled Toukan, the chairman of the Jordan Atomic Energy Commission, stated that global energy demand is in the process of doubling between 1990 and 2030. It is in this context that 43 new countries are considering acquiring nuclear reactors and 25 others have shown interest in doing so.

Unfortunately, however, no doubt due to the financial crisis, the question of extending considerably the line of the present nuclear facilities is high on the agenda and much energy will be wasted in extending the lives of current nuclear reactors rather than building new and more efficient ones. Bernard Bigot, Chairman of the French Atomic Energy and Renewable Energies Commission told the panel on "The Medium- And Long-Term Outlook For Nuclear Power," that "the extension of the operational life of nuclear installations beyond 35-40 years whilst maintaining the highest safety levels is a major economic issue," and studies will be conducted on the aging equipment, as well as R&D on nuclear fuels aimed at optimizing the current pressurized hot water reactors (PHWR). Most indicative of this economic predicament was the statement by Warren Pete Miller, special advisor to U.S. President Obama on nuclear energy, who declared that one of the five strategic imperatives for the U.S., is to extend the life of the 104 American nuclear reactors to 60, even 80 years, if that can be done safely!

While some speakers, including Nobuo Tanaka, executive director of the OECD's International Energy Agency, which co-hosted the conference, insisted on the fact that the next 20 years will be reserved entirely for third-generation reactors, Bigot clearly stated that beyond extending the life of the present reactors, the priority is to "prepare nuclear technology by coming up with the means to develop Generation IV systems which can produce 100 times more energy" by drawing the maximum potential from uranium and using the plutonium produced by the reaction. Note that most of the countries involved in this conference are coordinating this effort in the Generation IV international forum, even though for most of these countries it has not been until now a kind of life or death issue.

In terms of the future, however, it was Srikumar Banerjee, chairman of India's Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) who stole the show in his remarks to the panel on "Nuclear and Energy Mix in a Perspective of Durable Development." Taking off from previous speeches stating that there are currently 56 new nuclear power plants under construction, Dr. Banerjee noted polemically that this only represents a 1%-2% growth annually, while India and other developing sector nations need at minimum 10% annual growth to provide electricity to millions of poor. Dr. Banerjee presented India's ambitious three-stage nuclear program. The country is moving rapidly from Phase 1 — 17 reactors (15 PHWR and 2 boiling water) in use, plus 5 under construction (3 PHWR and 2 LWR) at three different sites — to Phase 2, where it will shift to liquid sodium-cooled fast breeder reactors. The use of fast breeders, which produce more fuel than they consume, will enlarge the scope of fission resources for humanity until the end of this century, said Dr. Banerjee, but not enough to go beyond. This is why India's third phase of nuclear development is the development of advanced heavy water reactors using thorium as fuel. Since thorium is three times more abundant than uranium, this process will extend the life of that resource to 155,000 years, said M. Banerjee.

That resources are scarce is something that we know for 40 years, said Dr. Banerjee polemically, but we have done nothing to solve the problem. We have been waiting for a miracle to happen and that miracle has not happened. He called for international support of India's thorium project to deal with that problem. He was very happy to answer a question from Nouvelle Solidarité Editor Christine Bierre, on the need to move aggressively towards such more efficient technologies, in the particular the pebble bed reactor (PBMR), to give humanity an adequate energy base, rather than extending the life of much less efficient power stations and sticking to the third generation EPR.

[sigma6]

Same old story, fat greedy bastards, making billions off of bilking the govt, if they move to LFTR, they cut manufacturing and production costs, the fuel will be 100s of times cheaper, 1% efficiency vs 95% efficiency? Come on, they missed that? and it totally eliminates the super complicated fuel processing step. and what happened to human safety being the most important factor? This is on top of all the cost savings and greater efficiency. If ever there was proof a bunch of scum bags are running the show, what more do you need? What a joke, otherwise Thorium LFTR would win hands down.

BS, on BS, on BS as usual while they scrape the last nickels and dimes out of bankrupt governments. Also Thorium 232 is 500 times more abundant then the rarer Uranium 235 which is the actual isotope required for their reactors. It's so many pluses, there isn't really a comparison. We can thank that scum bag Nixon, as he certainly made a dirty deal out of this. Another example of Government special interests (Military) Government kickbacks (Trillions have been spent on plutonium research) Classic example of orchestrated scarcity and "CONTROL OF DISTRIBUTION". In this case govt funding on the one hand and energy on the other.

These parasites that are running the government and this planet have to go.

[TargeT]

Same old story, fat greedy bastards, making billions off of bilking the govt, if they move to LFTR, they cut manufacturing and production costs, the fuel will be 100s of times cheaper, 1% efficiency vs 95% efficiency? Come on, they missed that? and it totally eliminates the super complicated fuel processing step. and what happened to human safety being the most important factor? This is on top of all the cost savings and greater efficiency. If ever there was proof a bunch of scum bags are running the show, what more do you need? What a joke, otherwise Thorium LFTR would win hands down.

and you CAN'T make weapons grade material with this type of setup, all other active reactors in the world (so called "breeder" reactors) have a primary purpose, and it's NOT producing power, its producing yellow cake and power is a by product.... this is ultimately the reason one technology was chosen over another (yet again more deception)

[sigma6]

Just like the 'moon mission' was to build intercontinentals, the astronauts were just strapped onto the tip of the rocket as a side show. We live in a fish bowl matrix of pure SH**.

[Bob]

1990's late.

I published research on "table top" Thorium - with a neutron trigger system that one can turn on and off, like the ignition of an auto-engine.

The design utilized a concept of a few grams of Thorium with an "ignition plug" (the neutron source as part of the refuel package).

As to "filling stations", a recycle system allowed for the recovery of the spent contained module, and a new one installed, not much harder than going to a petrol station to get refueled.

This system is scalable to home heating, industrial heating and home power and industrial power.

The keys to this system are controlled safe neutron ignition module plus safe Thorium. The output is HEAT. Heat exchangers can just transfer heat and leave any ionizing particles inside the device. Converting the heat through small thermoelectric solid state modules and/or using closed cycle microturbines is possible to run conventional generators.

A totally closed electric production system and heating system is possible.

I had estimated a month's worth of travel (assuming greater than 1800 miles) in an electric vehicle could be achieved with about 10 grams of Thorium. Total cost of the Thorium would be about 10 pounds Sterling.

http://chanlo.com/images/TNG-1b.gif

Of course, this could never be licensed as TPTB want folks to support Aramco, Mobil/Exxon, Shell and Texaco. That the science is there doesn't mean it will ever see such being made available. (sigh)

[TargeT]

uK367T7h6ZY

the truth has been withheld from us.... but it is out there for us to discover.

[Bob]

A few points to note about workable Thorium energy independence.

De-Centralization is the KEY - to decentralize removes the necessity for massive power transfer lines between the power station and the end user. NO massive electric field pollution.

De-Centralization means a person's home won't be without fuel, without energy if enough stock pile is obtained.

One is actually OFF-THE-GRID with de-centralized personal generation of heat light and energy.

One is off the grid for having to obtain new petrol daily or weekly, and prices can remain stable for fuel.

A central power station cannot be sabotaged as there would not be one with De-Centralization.

Thorium reactions are totally contained in recyclable modules able to be easily exchanged and serviced. There is no radiation leakage, no potential to have meltdowns or critical reactions. No weapons use possible.

A note: to make massive multi-giga-watt (billions of watts) power stations as many Countries have looked at is very expensive and doesn't look at the de-centralization benefits. Massive single power reactors require a lot of safeguards to shut off the neutron sources.

Small decentralized modules using miniature neutron generators provide a safe on/of switch, that when the neutrons are turned off the HEAT production stops.

It only makes sense if one is wanting to GET OFF THE GRID is to focus on miniature safe modules - neutron ignitor plus thorium heat source.

[TargeT]

Small decentralized modules using miniature neutron generators provide a safe on/of switch, that when the neutrons are turned off the HEAT production stops.

It only makes sense if one is wanting to GET OFF THE GRID is to focus on miniature safe modules - neutron ignitor plus thorium heat source.

Lets build a few; it can't be that hard.

I'm about to go into debt to get off the grid with solar, but I'd rather see something like a thorium based power unit become a reality, thorium is highly available and such a great energy source.

[Bob]

Small decentralized modules using miniature neutron generators provide a safe on/of switch, that when the neutrons are turned off the HEAT production stops.

It only makes sense if one is wanting to GET OFF THE GRID is to focus on miniature safe modules - neutron ignitor plus thorium heat source.

Lets build a few; it can't be that hard.

I'm about to go into debt to get off the grid with solar, but I'd rather see something like a thorium based power unit become a reality, thorium is highly available and such a great energy source.

The neutron generators I would believe the various groups that deal with nuclear materials would have a say or two. All that stuff is under license through NRC, basically one of the reasons such never took off.

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part040/part040-0013.html
was one of the first regulations that prevents experimentation with any significant quantities of thorium.

One can't have "refined ore", of a specific grade, or any significant quantities other than incidental material, such as in certain optical camera lenses, or gas mantles

On the same website, do: http://www.nrc.gov/site-help/search.cfm?q=%22neutron+generator%22&s=+

And there are about 449 reasons why one can't have a neutron generator.

Point is one is BLOCKED from even trying to get any product available that will combine thorium in sufficient quantities plus the neutron source to evoke the heat generation.

This below legislation is kinda a good starting point to read up on and to show how one must have immense safeguards in place to work with the neutron generators used in doing oil well logging (peering into the rock through the casing to see if there is oil on the other side of the pipe).

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part039/full-text.html

The technique IS simple to get heat, plus energy out of the reaction of neutron plus thorium. There are some direct energy to electricity down-converters to deal with the particle creation in the reaction. I was envisioning something like how the fluorescent lamp coatings will convert one frequency energy into another. If one coupled concepts behind the photovoltaics, layered in with assorted thorium layers, like a polymer lithium battery, and build up the design like that, then very solid state systems could be created, using heat, plus "light" output (thermo-electrics).

It is absolutely fascinating the possibilities, the licensing though to get to the stage of anything more than a few milligrams of low grade unrefined material is staggering. I would believe a group willing to actually follow up on something like that could be successful. The science isn't rocket science for small modules.

[TargeT]

well, I guess this just depends on how seriously you take words written on paper, rules and regulations are all fine and dandy, I can collect thorium from the ground, or old used smoke detectors, since thorium comes from the ground as refined as it needs to be either option would work.

If meth can be cooked from ingredients at Waymart, I think a resourceful human could work around the NRC; my failing here is a lack of understanding; I work in information technology not electrical engineering or any other engineering field.

I'll take the risk, someone has to... where should I start?

[Bob]

well, I guess this just depends on how seriously you take words written on paper, rules and regulations are all fine and dandy, I can collect thorium from the ground, or old used smoke detectors, since thorium comes from the ground as refined as it needs to be either option would work.

If meth can be cooked from ingredients at Waymart, I think a resourceful human could work around the NRC; my failing here is a lack of understanding; I work in information technology not electrical engineering or any other engineering field.

I'll take the risk, someone has to... where should I start?

I would start on looking at if one could create something public service, it should get some traction. I think if the goal would be commercialize, TPTB would have one jumping through all sorts of hoops, maybe never getting started. There are articles on the creation of neutrons without needing a nuclear reactor.. Simple types of generators. That would be a good start too - research those generators and come up with costs, where to obtain the materials. From what I remember none of those materials needed to make such neutron generators are on any restriction list. But when the generator is assembled then it comes under a regulation. Operating it places it under another regulation. Thorium of all things exists in electrodes in WELDING RODS used in plasma torches to facilitate keeping the ARC going. Thorium is great for creating an extra charge in the plasma when the high plasma temps are there.. I used a plasma torch with a thorium active electrode that had an argon gas cone around it - I have used one with a nitrogen gas cone also.

One would then need to decide, what is the best method - the postage stamp method has been suggested. A method of coupling layers of transparent photovoltaic plus thorium plus photoluminescent coating (the phosphor down converter to visible) and then using a method of a heat pipe to couple the excess heat out to the heat exchanger. Different types of heat pipes are possible.. Some have been used on motherboards for getting the heat from the chips under a fan for removal of those BTU's.

There has been talk about OPEN SOURCING such a project, maybe crowdfunding to develop.. Todd and I talked about such things in the past but there never seems to be any traction. It could happen I believe if the people together want it, and can show it can be safe to operate..

The detection systems for neutron generation generally would be a neutron pickup tube available off the internet.. A gamma ray scintillator which can do monitoring for the full spectrum would give one an idea of what energy level one is working with.. Used to "tune" the reaction.

Those are some of the starting considerations TargeT.. It IS very doable. It is solid science. The breadcrumbs above should point one in the right direction. BobD

[TargeT]

Residing in the virgin islands gives me a little freedom from regulatory ..... regulation.

I've worked with plasma torches before, but purely for cutting on projects.

I'll need a bit more than breadcrumbs, unfortunately, though I'll look into alternate neutron generation.

thanks for the nudges.

[Bob]

I'll need a bit more than breadcrumbs, unfortunately, though I'll look into alternate neutron generation.

thanks for the nudges.

Nuclear Triggers, as they are alternatively known, (neutron exciters) are the first step at looking at controlled nuclear reactions.

Uranium devices, plutonium devices and a whole host of nasty isotope configurations for boosting have taken the safe use of neutrons out of the mindset of good meaning folks, and warped it into weapons development.

In the 50's believe it or not it was HIGHLY encouraged that kids study nuclear energy for its peaceful uses, such as solving energy, creating nuclear medicines (those proper dose proper level radiation based medicines), BUT something came in and sabotaged it all - and it went crazy. Lots of folks have said look towards Rockefeller and that "type" of empire building as the independents movement sabotage.

I researched this as and had found part of the 50's programs encouraged students to create OVER UNITY batteries, free energy in other words, AEC was backing this type of work back then. To me when it was show that ENERGY could be derived other than from OIL that had to be rapidly controlled by TPTB. There is a book long out of print if one can find it, with amazing experiments that the AEC suggested for high school students, not even college trained folks. THAT is how safe they felt proper nuclear studies could be.

Done right thorium can produce 6X more energy out cleanly. That is WAY over unity.

This works btw:

http://chanlo.com/images/Atom-1.gif

The above can be adopted to other "electron" generating sources.

As I had mentioned, coupled with a phosphor (like on the inside of fluorescent tubes), and coupled to a photovoltaic, you have energy being produced in the DARK, pretty much for many years..

It is NOT rocket science, it was just HIDDEN science, manipulated to create SHORTAGE MANIPULATION - SCARCITY.. to make a buck.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

1990's late.

I published research on "table top" Thorium - with a neutron trigger system that one can turn on and off, like the ignition of an auto-engine.

The design utilized a concept of a few grams of Thorium with an "ignition plug" (the neutron source as part of the refuel package).

As to "filling stations", a recycle system allowed for the recovery of the spent contained module, and a new one installed, not much harder than going to a petrol station to get refueled.

This system is scalable to home heating, industrial heating and home power and industrial power.

The keys to this system are controlled safe neutron ignition module plus safe Thorium. The output is HEAT. Heat exchangers can just transfer heat and leave any ionizing particles inside the device. Converting the heat through small thermoelectric solid state modules and/or using closed cycle microturbines is possible to run conventional generators.

A totally closed electric production system and heating system is possible.

I had estimated a month's worth of travel (assuming greater than 1800 miles) in an electric vehicle could be achieved with about 10 grams of Thorium. Total cost of the Thorium would be about 10 pounds Sterling.

http://chanlo.com/images/TNG-1b.gif

Of course, this could never be licensed as TPTB want folks to support Aramco, Mobil/Exxon, Shell and Texaco. That the science is there doesn't mean it will ever see such being made available. (sigh)

such things can be made on small scale in a manner that infiltrates un suspecting markets... then once the technology has infiltrated the mass it can be reverse engineered by many all at once and made into a larger scale .. like injecting a virus ... once the virus is spread to millions of humans the technology will kill the existing virus we wish to be done with ..

these things can be done if those with the technology meet those with the resources ...

mwa mwhahahahahaaaaaaargh cough !

N

[TargeT]

such things can be made on small scale in a manner that infiltrates un suspecting markets... then once the technology has infiltrated the mass it can be reverse engineered by many all at once and made into a larger scale .. like injecting a virus ... once the virus is spread to millions of humans the technology will kill the existing virus we wish to be done with ..

these things can be done if those with the technology meet those with the resources ...

mwa mwhahahahahaaaaaaargh cough !

N

this is sort of the mind set I was looking at, get it out there in a small but vastly (via internet) distributed way, don't make a bunch of money off it, don't rock the financial world.. push out "seed" technology that can easily be extrapolated into something more beneficial.

"virus" is a good analogy; I think attempts to change society need to be approached in this manor, it's too subtle when compared to the current patterns, too hard to catch and head off.

[Bob]

1990's late.

I published research on "table top" Thorium
http://chanlo.com//images/TNG-1b.gif

Of course, this could never be licensed as TPTB want folks to support Aramco, Mobil/Exxon, Shell and Texaco. That the science is there doesn't mean it will ever see such being made available. (sigh)
(snipped)
N: "such things can be made on small scale in a manner that infiltrates un suspecting markets... then once the technology has infiltrated the mass it can be reverse engineered by many all at once and made into a larger scale .. like injecting a virus ... once the virus is spread to millions of humans the technology will kill the existing virus we wish to be done with ..


N

It was hoped that it could be fully open sourced, crowd funded. The issues were really the NRC folks want total control on the technology. After the GPS fiasco in the '69-'71 era i vowed never to try the patent route again.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

such things can be made on small scale in a manner that infiltrates un suspecting markets... then once the technology has infiltrated the mass it can be reverse engineered by many all at once and made into a larger scale .. like injecting a virus ... once the virus is spread to millions of humans the technology will kill the existing virus we wish to be done with ..

these things can be done if those with the technology meet those with the resources ...

mwa mwhahahahahaaaaaaargh cough !

N

this is sort of the mind set I was looking at, get it out there in a small but vastly (via internet) distributed way, don't make a bunch of money off it, don't rock the financial world.. push out "seed" technology that can easily be extrapolated into something more beneficial.

"virus" is a good analogy; I think attempts to change society need to be approached in this manor, it's too subtle when compared to the current patterns, too hard to catch and head off.

pretty much all modifications happen through virus , in this case modification of our current dis ease. If we can inject small tech into un suspecting markets the techology can be replicated into larger working models by thousands and tens of thousands of individuals which will make current technologies obsolete.

N

[Bob]

TargeT - I found this on Way Back machine - Nuclear Stuff

http://blogs.mcall.com/.a/6a00d8341c4fe353ef0120a9414a5d970b-800wi


"Why Should These Guys be the ones to have all the Fun (http://web.archive.org/web/20120405034648/http://members.fortunecity.com/reactor1967/)"

some of the links and articles on that page are WILD - Seems one may want to archive that page quick..

Another link I found in the above WayBack machine archive refers to this page in looking at different types of particle beam exciters, neutron proton etc..

http://www.focusfusion.org/

[Shannow]

TargeT,
think it was you who posted about the Farnsworth "fusors" a while ago.

They, or a variant of them can, and are being used to generate neutrons.... http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2012/ph241/klopfer2/

And kids are making them in highschool.

http://fusor.net/newbie/files/Ligon-QED-IE.pdf

[Eram]

1990's late.

I published research on "table top" Thorium - with a neutron trigger system that one can turn on and off, like the ignition of an auto-engine.

The design utilized a concept of a few grams of Thorium with an "ignition plug" (the neutron source as part of the refuel package).

As to "filling stations", a recycle system allowed for the recovery of the spent contained module, and a new one installed, not much harder than going to a petrol station to get refueled.

This system is scalable to home heating, industrial heating and home power and industrial power.

The keys to this system are controlled safe neutron ignition module plus safe Thorium. The output is HEAT. Heat exchangers can just transfer heat and leave any ionizing particles inside the device. Converting the heat through small thermoelectric solid state modules and/or using closed cycle microturbines is possible to run conventional generators.

A totally closed electric production system and heating system is possible.

I had estimated a month's worth of travel (assuming greater than 1800 miles) in an electric vehicle could be achieved with about 10 grams of Thorium. Total cost of the Thorium would be about 10 pounds Sterling.

http://chanlo.com/images/TNG-1b.gif

Of course, this could never be licensed as TPTB want folks to support Aramco, Mobil/Exxon, Shell and Texaco. That the science is there doesn't mean it will ever see such being made available. (sigh)

Hi Bobd,

How is your look on safety in respect these kind of little thorium reactors?
Would some one be able to sabotage one and create a disaster?

[Etherios]

1990's late.

I published research on "table top" Thorium - with a neutron trigger system that one can turn on and off, like the ignition of an auto-engine.

The design utilized a concept of a few grams of Thorium with an "ignition plug" (the neutron source as part of the refuel package).

As to "filling stations", a recycle system allowed for the recovery of the spent contained module, and a new one installed, not much harder than going to a petrol station to get refueled.

This system is scalable to home heating, industrial heating and home power and industrial power.

The keys to this system are controlled safe neutron ignition module plus safe Thorium. The output is HEAT. Heat exchangers can just transfer heat and leave any ionizing particles inside the device. Converting the heat through small thermoelectric solid state modules and/or using closed cycle microturbines is possible to run conventional generators.

A totally closed electric production system and heating system is possible.

I had estimated a month's worth of travel (assuming greater than 1800 miles) in an electric vehicle could be achieved with about 10 grams of Thorium. Total cost of the Thorium would be about 10 pounds Sterling.

http://chanlo.com/images/TNG-1b.gif

Of course, this could never be licensed as TPTB want folks to support Aramco, Mobil/Exxon, Shell and Texaco. That the science is there doesn't mean it will ever see such being made available. (sigh)

Hi Bobd,

How is your look on safety in respect these kind of little thorium reactors?
Would some one be able to sabotage one and create a disaster?


thats the good about thorium ... if you stop / sabotage the reactor it will stop working by it self and as it isnt radioactive it will just shutdown nothing else.

not an expert tho thats what i read in a few articles about it.

[TargeT]

Hi Bobd,

How is your look on safety in respect these kind of little thorium reactors?
Would some one be able to sabotage one and create a disaster?


thats the good about thorium ... if you stop / sabotage the reactor it will stop working by it self and as it isnt radioactive it will just shutdown nothing else.

not an expert tho thats what i read in a few articles about it.


yes, this is the MAIN reason why Thorium based reactors (a Thorium based reactor is usualy refering to a LFTR (Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor) system).


here's the basic gist of the system:

Thorium is suspended in molten Fluoride (a salt, Liquid salts are one of THE MOST chemically stable liquids we currently know of). in a "loop" system, where the natural heating and cooling of the liquid salt will circulate it through the reactor, while the reactor is creating power there is a drain line with a cooling fan at the bottom (gravity will do all that is needed) of the unit; if any failure or need to stop reaction occurs, the cooling fan is simply turned off, the molten salt melts the solid salt "plug" and the solution flows out of the reactor into a collection tank, where it can no-longer react and will solidify back to solid salt.

So LFTR systems run at regular pressure, do not need a cooling system & have a built in safety over ride that needs nothing but gravity (which we can pretty much count on). These alone make it suicidal to not be using a LFTR system.

Here's a diagram of what I'm trying to explain:
http://www.energyfromthorium.com/images/LFTR_TMRgraphic.png

That's the basic top-of-my-head break down on LFTR (thorium) systems.

Here's an indepth explanation in 5 min about LFTR systems:
ZsmezEOXDjU


NOTE

all of this does not answer the question posed here:



Hi Bobd,

How is your look on safety in respect these kind of little thorium reactors?
Would some one be able to sabotage one and create a disaster?

I have next to zero knowledge on neutron powered thorium packs... I don't understand how they create heat; though I think I do (which is dangerous... haha I could probably guess at how they work and sound like I know what I'm talking about) I'd imagine they are similar to the LFTR system (or could be made to be so) and would benefit from the same safety bonuses.

you see, we purposefully create heavy water reactors (aka BREEDER reactors (BREEDER reactors are what every single nuclear "power" plant is currently on this planet)) which run at ultra high pressure with multiple very dangerous systems that take extensive, expensive systems and highly trained individuals to maintain.

your question now might be... "why?"

well, aside from their concentrating/refinement of nuclear material (for weapons grade plutonium); I postulate that the ultimate control structures the planet currently faces are first: Money, and Second: Energy. With these two things controlled (and energy is the real item IMO...) all else is easily guided in the direction of choice, either by a knowing conspiracy or just "instinct" of predatory sociopaths (Lion's don't meet in dark smokey rooms before they gang up and take down zebra's.. they just do it).

[Bob]

Hi TargeT, Etherios, and Eram - the questions are on safety. With gram amounts of thorium and sub-gram amounts of material to make up the neutron "spark plug", and no "polonium" in the system, nor plutonium, there's no dirty bomb capability, there is no "criticality" capability. I would liken it as dangerous as a lithium battery pack. Safer than gasoline tanks, safer than compressed natural gas. I'd consider it the alternative to hydrocarbon fuel burning. Frankly I would prefer a series parallel arrangement of smaller modules, never having any larger quantity of thorium. It makes for redundancy. A failure of the neutron source means no heat output, no electricity output. I would call these systems energy amplifiers, or multipliers - small amount of energy in to run the neutron "spark plug" and large amount of thermal calories out.

[TargeT]

This video is a tour of the Oak Ridge facility


8hA8V8y52BM

Note: at about 2 hours (1:56:00) they are talking about accelerated particle reactors, the whole video is pretty interesting if you are interested in this topic.

[Bob]

:bump:

Going to briefly bump this thread upwards..

There are some other posts circulating around the forum that thorium is a dangerous leaky method - that is nonsense unless the systems are designed in a shoddy manner.

MACRO multi-gigawatt systems (liquid fluoride-thorium salt reactors) are like saying one knows how to handle an ocean liner after driving a model toy boat in the bath tub..

COMMON SENSE - if thorium can be produced in a micro-thorium-heater package the size of a D sized dry cell USE THAT instead of gigawatt reactors; that "D-Cell" size is back to the model toy boat size, but the energy output is more like a swimming pool in capability instead of a "flash light battery". D-Cell sized thorium heater modules mean recycling is simple, no problems drop it off at the recycling center for the return on the "cash deposit".

Easy to do, clean, doesn't cost billions to setup or maintain, and puts the REAL POWER back to the people who would be energy independent.

Put thorium in a big reactor, and one CAN develop a URANIUM waste burner, taking depleted uranium from dirty bomb technology reactors and inside of 100 years, (not millions of years) we can have ZERO NUCLEAR WASTE on the planet.. This reactor as talked about has been done by General Atomics, the Energy Multiplier reactor.

This isn't rocket science people, it is using a HIDDEN suppressed science which was hidden so TPTB could build a WAR POLITICAL structure to enslave nations and perceived enemies.

Let's move into this REAL over-unity clean energy using the micro-thorium-heater "batteries", please?

[TargeT]

COMMON SENSE - if thorium can be produced in a micro-thorium-heater package the size of a D sized dry cell USE THAT instead of gigawatt reactors; that "D-Cell" size is back to the model toy boat size, but the energy output is more like a swimming pool in capability instead of a "flash light battery". D-Cell sized thorium heater modules mean recycling is simple, no problems drop it off at the recycling center for the return on the "cash deposit".

these small scale energy sources, what are they using to convert heat to electricity? or am I just not understanding how they are harnessing the energy; traditionally it's by using heat to turn a turbine, but there are some alloys that convert heat directly to electricity (http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-06/new-alloy-can-convert-heat-directly-electricity) (we've all seen or heard about the lightening created in volcanoes, so the natural precedence is there).

I guess the concept just isn't solidified in my mind as "ready for market" right now.

[Bob]

I'm not going to get into the precise technical methods (like exactly HOW they are put together) in this thread.. trying to keep this as much as possible in laymens terms so that people don't start getting into nuclear insanity (it leaks, is gonna melt down, etc..) suffice to say, all energy output from the reaction, heat, particle generation, high energy photon production is converted into electricity. Thermopile junctions have worked when the junctions are solid state, not the conventional two types of wires used in thermostatic thermometers.. I would venture more than 6X energy out than in with this configuration. (theory says 60X energy out is the maximum possible in the spallation methods that the liquid salt thorium reactor produces.. I don't believe it as I would add in the cost to run the linear accelerator.. in that configuration, still tho, they are way over unity). A large system could run a closed loop gas turbine like to run a house or factory on, similar in size to one's existing "gas fired furnace", not much different in construction 'cept the thorium modules inserted into the system would be able to be pulled out and recycled easily..

[Rocky_Shorz]

Bump......