The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

[greybeard]

Both Ramana Mharshi and Nasargadatta died of cancer. Nasargadatta was a heavy smoker.
Ramana when asked is he was suffering pain said--"There is pain"--the pain was not personally owned though.

You can be calm, at peace, with a still mind no matter what.
Dont test me yet though--smiling.

Love Chris

[Wind]

Thanks Chris, I think that nothing happens by chance. If it wasn't for certain experiences, I wouldn't be here.

[Joe Akulis]

Dont test me yet though

Awww, man!

*shoos the lions back into their cages*

[Guish]

If the body doesn't function well, the mind loses its stillness.

This is true to an extent, I would know. That also begs the question, can someone ill achieve everlasting peace no matter what the body goes through? Is my body not working due to karma or some other reason? I know that the body, mind and soul are all connected though. I am not my body and I am not my ego, but I am the self. Yet my body is my temple and I have to balance between my heart and mind. I pray more often that I meditate, but I have tried to meditate as often as I can. I don't feel like forcing it, but I should make a habit out of it.


Meditation is a practical way of achieving detachment from the ego and body and it is one of the ways of knowing one is beyond the body and mind. Having a regular practice of even 10 mins with your prayers will be good. Previous karma and current living style affect our current state. Realising that one needs to do one's maximum to keep the body fit and mind calm and focused is a major step. If the mind is not calm, actions that follow won't be calm and may generate bad karma. Tibetan monks created exercises based on balancing chakras and working out the muscles because there needs to be a balance between spirit and body.

[Guish]

Thanks Chris, I think that nothing happens by chance. If it wasn't for certain experiences, I wouldn't be here.


Same as you. Having a tough childhood with a mother who used to beat me and my own battles with sickness made me another person eventually becoming nothing... Is it the divine putting us through tests to realise truth or our own previous karma being cleaned? I'd go with the second hypothesis as why would God want to cause harm? We all come from source. We just lost track of our core existence. As the ego fades, one's divinity shines more and more.

[TraineeHuman]

There seems to be considerable confusion regarding what dreams are and aren't. Let me say up front that at any level above the physical, you are whatever you dream you are -- even though you may often forget many or most of the details. Even in the physical, the life you experience is in many ways determined by whatever you dream yourself to be, except that practical limitations and practical implications do significantly come in as well.

But in all planes above the physical, we can truly say that, there, imagination can no longer ever be fantasy -- which it very often is within the physical. Rather, imagination becomes effectively the same thing as choice, choice of what possible world you manifest in that higher plane.

Because of this, your best defence against all negative or malicious beings/ ETs/ entities/ thoughtforms/ demonic beings/ archons/ hostile djinn, and so on, is to be largely and essentially free of fear. I would claim, for example, to have been so since my mid-twenties at least, and to have apparently gotten there mostly through meditation but also through personal growth and self-reflection. Freedom from fear seems mostly to come down to having courage. I still have a fear of heights, for example, but it's much more a matter of being courageous in spite of feeling the fear, and then courage wins out. If you don't have significant fear, the baddies are literally powerless to harm you -- except possibly they might be able to influence someone else in the physical to act in a way that harms you.

[Orph]

..... your best defence against all negative or malicious beings ..... is to be largely and essentially free of fear. ...... Freedom from fear seems mostly to come down to having courage. ......This doesn't sound right to me. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding it. To me, freedom from fear isn't about courage, but rather just not believing in fear.

For instance, a child might be afraid of the dark. There are monsters under his bed and in his closet. This child might go to bed with his toy sword. He isn't afraid of any monsters because he'll slay them if they come out. He is courageous. Or, this child might realize that there are no monsters to begin with except those that he creates with his imagination. Therefore he need not fear them. He isn't courageous. He simply understands where the fear is coming from and decides not to make it part of his reality.

So what is there to fear? It's true that if I stand on a cliff with the possibility of falling to my death, I'll feel certain symptoms such as my heart beating faster, shortness of breath and so on. But, if, in that scenario, I am able to collect my senses, I'll realize that although my body may die, the "I" that I am will still live on. I'll then be able to calm myself in the face of death. To me, that really isn't courage so much as a lack of fear.

Can you see my point?

[TraineeHuman]

For instance, a child might be afraid of the dark. There are monsters under his bed and in his closet. This child might go to bed with his toy sword. He isn't afraid of any monsters because he'll slay them if they come out. ...

So what is there to fear? It's true that if I stand on a cliff with the possibility of falling to my death, I'll feel certain symptoms such as my heart beating faster, shortness of breath and so on. But, if, in that scenario, I am able to collect my senses, I'll realize that although my body may die, the "I" that I am will still live on. I'll then be able to calm myself in the face of death. To me, that really isn't courage so much as a lack of fear.



We -- our soul, our HM -- may be essentially free of fear regarding some situation while often our body-consciousness experiences considerable fear and anxiety about it. One sees this with even the most experienced performers and speakers. Initially the body-consciousness gives them butterflies, every time. But then they'll get so absorbed in their performance that often they may completely detach from and forget about the body-consciousness's concerns.

Another example is one's attitude to death. Death involves a disconnection from our body-consciousness. But no-one seems to have a body-consciousness that's evolved enough not to be terrified of death (not enough stands of DNA, perhaps?). On the other hand, in dying one is disconnecting from that anyway.

Also, I would say that being basically free from fear doesn't mean one somehow stops feeling fear. What's important is what significance or interpretation one places, or doesn't place, on it, and whether or not it dominates one's consciousness. I would say one is stuck in fear whenever one's consciousness gets rigidly frozen or else overwhelmed by a need to flee or go into denial.

I guess I was using "courage" as a word to describe one's transcending of the body-consciousness's fears.

[Guish]

Sometimes, I think only peace is real. In deep meditation, everything is dissolved and only vastness, emptiness and fulfill ness is experienced. Everything else is an interpretation of the body senses. The more one goes in the vastness, the more detached one is from the body.

[TraineeHuman]

Sometimes, I think only peace is real. In deep meditation, everything is dissolved and only vastness, emptiness and fulfill ness is experienced. Everything else is an interpretation of the body senses. The more one goes in the vastness, the more detached one is from the body.

Yes, but then, having an experience of Source isn't the ultimate, by any means, by a long, long way. My experience leads me to mention that, as Zen and Nietzsche and Sri Aurobindo and Steiner emphasize, you haven't experienced Source in the fullest or the most expansive way until you're experiencing Source added to, and descended into, the lowest levels.

For instance, once Source has descended as far as the astral body, Source itself, as you know it, gets added to, expanded and made greater by taking on an astral "face"; and the more so the lower the level that it penetrates into and is "incarnated" into.

The Christian notion of hearing "God's voice" in the minutiae of their everyday lives, and of having a felt, intimate friendship with God, is not as naive as it sounds at face value. It's actually something we need to attain and live by. Though, since Source respects us as an equal, it doesn't comment on many things but leaves them up to our free choice -- unless we somehow manage to fully surrender to the Divine will, and even then, many things are up to our own judgment. The only trouble is, of course, that the great majority of Christians aren't hearing Source's voice at all, however much they may like to assert that Jesus told me this and Jesus told me that.

[Chris Gilbert]

Getting a glimpse of divine bliss or hearing "God's voice" is good in the beginning if one is depressed or feels lost, for me such a experience initially came in the form of an energy projection that caused me to feel intense bliss and love even when walking around work or doing daily chores. Further refinement is necessary however, one needs to burn through their filters and expand awareness to better hear and interpret the voice/harmony of Tao/God.

[TraineeHuman]

Getting a glimpse of divine bliss or hearing "God's voice" is good in the beginning if one is depressed or feels lost, for me such a experience initially came in the form of an energy projection that caused me to feel intense bliss and love even when walking around work or doing daily chores. Further refinement is necessary however, one needs to burn through their filters and expand awareness

Dear Enishi, welcome again, from me, to the Forum. Earlier in this thread, particularly between April and June 2013 and at other times in 2013, I went to considerable lengths to promote discussion and understanding of what listening to the "voice" of the Higher Mind (the soul, the Higher Self) is like. I believe at least some individuals gained the insight that they are indeed "hearing" that "voice" quite often, even though it operates subtly and often quietly. The "voice" of the HM is a long way from what I would call the "voice" of Source. I've made a number of posts in this thread to clarify how different the HM is from Source.

Nevertheless, the HM does in itself exist primarily beyond time and space and form. It also acts beyond like and dislike, and beyond pleasure, pain and indifference -- except that it does adopt an individual position, and sometimes very strongly if it believes there's a positive and just cause. No-one is more individualistic, more willing to be "different", than someone into whom the HM has fully descended. Also, the HM "eats" bliss all the time, by which I mean a more intense expression of what's known as "love", and so although it's more sensitive than anyone else, and therefore able to experience more intense pain because of its vulnerability, for the HM love is what everything is made of, and it's in the air everywhere, so to speak.

Although the HM certainly isn't Source (which is universal, and not individual), to the body-consciousness the HM seems to be, precisely, "God". I suspect that some Christians would manage to eventually get in touch with their HM and take it to be "God". However, I unfortunately suspect that the great majority of Christians would only experience flashes of this. The rest of the time they would in fact be worshiping an "idol" of their own making, in accordance with their sociocultural and family conditioning.

Listening to the "voice" or the will of Source is an advanced practice. Source, or at least the Divine mind, has access to absolutely all knowledge. However, such knowledge or power usually can't fully be accurately brought into the physical unless Source itself has fully descended through all the planes and fully into the physical and the individual's physical body. Once it does so, as far as I understand that individual will be able to perform miracles in the physical and e.g. will be fully able to create a new physical body for themselves if they so desire.

[Guish]

Nevertheless, the HM does in itself exist primarily beyond time and space and form. It also acts beyond like and dislike, and beyond pleasure, pain and indifference -- except that it does adopt an individual position, and sometimes very strongly if it believes there's a positive and just cause. No-one is more individualistic, more willing to be "different", than someone into whom the HM has fully descended. Also, the HM "eats" bliss all the time, by which I mean a more intense expression of what's known as "love", and so although it's more sensitive than anyone else, and therefore able to experience more intense pain because of its vulnerability, for the HM love is what everything is made of, and it's in the air everywhere, so to speak.


Thanks for this TH. I went to work today and felt very worn out and anxious for no apparent reason. While I have always been very calm and in control of everything happening, I felt very vulnerable. The only difference is that I was able to observe these feelings come and go away and saw the body struggling as an observer. It's so funny that one can spend days unfazed by anything and spend other days being vulnerable. An increase in awareness takes time for the body to adjust I guess. Is accepting inconsistency what truth is all about?

[TraineeHuman]

While I have always been very calm and in control of everything happening, I felt very vulnerable. The only difference is that I was able to observe these feelings come and go away and saw the body struggling as an observer. It's so funny that one can spend days unfazed by anything and spend other days being vulnerable. An increase in awareness takes time for the body to adjust I guess. Is accepting inconsistency what truth is all about?

The question of what truth is is a whole topic in itself. Basically, truth has quite a close connection to unity, and even to Oneness. In the world of philosophy, by far the most favored account of what truth is is known as the coherence theory of truth. This says that the more fully a piece of information fits in with all the trusted other pieces of information, the more likely it is to be true.

Perhaps at least as importantly, I would say Truth is something we need to feel and to live. The more Truth we seem to have at work in us, in our being, the more evolved we seem to be. Eventually it should possess us, no less. Some of the most important Truth is clearly eternal, and surely a manifestation of the Divine even in this world of polarities and duality. That makes Truth something paradoxical -- Spirit made flesh, the unlimited breaking into this limited world. And yet our intuitions make it clear that higher (planes') Truth is undeniably there and is beyond questioning. Somehow the truth of the timeless's existence is what makes time even possible. In senses such as these, to accept the Truth is already to sit astride a great contradiction -- to accept both the timeless and time, both the infinite and the finite. The HM already does this, and although it can easily and gladly hold two or more contradictory points of view at the same time, it is always on the lookout for (and hence very vulnerable to) finding the truest point of view, subject only to its not giving up its individuality.

Psychologically speaking, though, to fully face and not flinch from the discomfort that comes with holding the two sides of some conflict within ourselves, or between ourselves and our environment or another -- that is surely one of the quickest ways to evolve spiritually and also to burn away the scar such a conflict may leave on us. Also, the unity of all things in the universe is clearly and undeniably true to anyone who has experienced it even once, yet so also is the truth of the multiplicity of existence. To quote Sadhguru: "The purpose of existence is to exist. It is too fantastic to have a meaning." (Or, to put it slightly another way, the meaning of X is always X, and never Y, so why ask what the meaning of life is?)

In each situation, and each state we are in, we also experience things at least a little differently -- and hence the truth looks different in each case, and often is somewhat different. From the total calm of Source in itself, for instance, the "view" is different.

[Guish]

I'd use different terms TH. I'd say being spiritual is staying between dualities rather than holding them because none of the extremities are real. Staying between impulses till they all fade lead to liberation. One gives less importance to intellectual interpretation as one keeps letting go of evaluation of events. A good pointer of awareness is looking at the reactivity of oneself. The less one reacts to events, the more one is detached and aware. A second good pointer is the ability to act only when there is a need.

[TraineeHuman]

The Higher Mind sits between the higher and the lower parts of our nature. For that reason it's key. It's the part of us that saves us or heals us from all that's base or misguided.

Sincerity of will is initially crucial here. However ignorant we or our will may be, simply having the will, the strong intention, to bring all that's higher in eventually will break open the floodgates.

However concealed or ignored the HM may have been inside us, to courageously follow its promptings is our only hope. It's the light that shows us what path to take. It's the next, higher state of consciousness for humanity.

We activate our HM whenever we're true to ourselves. Whenever we say what we feel and know, for instance. But of course we need to say it in an appropriate fashion and an appropriate situation, or the communication won't get through. We don't need the approval or acceptance of others, though, just self-acceptance. It's a balancing act, as far what style we choose to communicate what we feel and know goes. All such self-acceptance is really acceptance by our own HM. This brings a great power into our lives, something which empowers those around us as well.

All the other, or the lower, parts of us are too unreliable: our (ordinary) mind, our life-force and emotions, our body-consciousness. These are too unreliable as guides. They cling to the old, always. They always resist change into something truly better. They often do this by habit, unconsciously.

Those lower parts of us are still there when we break through into the HM, e.g. through adopting true self-acceptance. It's very important at that point to accept any lower promptings only for what they actually are. They are out to sabotage the joy and power and Divine Love coming from the HM. For example, almost any form of excitement (as distinct from joy) comes from the lower nature. The HM isn't, and could never be, just a higher "copy" of the animal consciousness.

[Guish]

I was watching an episode from Shiv Puran and Shiva said something that I realised during my years of spiritual seeking. All we need is cloth to cover the body, enough food to make the body survive and devote our life to God. Any other thing does not provide full satisfaction. Keep it simple and go deep.

[TraineeHuman]

Guish, in my previous post I was talking about a quite different level of attainment than what you're talking about. I was talking about temporarily bringing in the HM, the soul, through honestly liking oneself, or forgiving oneself, or accepting oneself and truly valuing oneself, or expressing oneself genuinely, or being one-pointed, or truly respecting oneself. Anyone can do that easily enough. And that's something a long way from the level of enlightenment where one lives in a state of freedom from unhappiness, through being effectively free of desire for anything except one's basic needs -- which is what you're talking about.

At the lowest level of enlightenment one experiences the One -- that all things are one, and that you also are the One. With such an experience the HM does at least descend from the oversoul and into the mid-head center, usually permanently or almost so. As far as I'm aware, freedom from unhappiness doesn't occur until the HM has permanently descended all the way to the feet (though the chakras turn golden in reverse order to that, i.e., the lowest chakras first and the crown and oversoul chakras last). I suspect that coincides with what is known as satori in Zen. Of course, it typically seems to take a Zen monk something like twenty years of full-time meditation etc, if ever in the current lifetime, to get from the lowest level (kensho) to something like freedom from unhappiness.

[Guish]

Guish, in my previous post I was talking about a quite different level of attainment than what you're talking about. I was talking about temporarily bringing in the HM, the soul, through honestly liking oneself, or forgiving oneself, or accepting oneself and truly valuing oneself, or expressing oneself genuinely, or being one-pointed, or truly respecting oneself. Anyone can do that easily enough. And that's something a long way from the level of enlightenment where one lives in a state of freedom from unhappiness, through being effectively free of desire for anything except one's basic needs -- which is what you're talking about.




I think many people know what they have to do to be at peace with themselves but the animal instincts kick in and they are not controlled. Everyone knows that anger is not appropriate. Yet, they do get angry. Everything you described is very true but a calm mind will definitely help to do these. However, I've noticed that actions can lead to peace of mind as well and this makes your assumptions very true. If I'd just help people and treat them like I'd treat my son, for example, I'd be filled with bliss. However, at a certain point, we do not need anything. I get a calling at times. My breath would slow down by itself and I'd be filled with bliss at random times. Usually, that's an invitation to meditate and connect to my Center.

[TraineeHuman]

I think many people know what they have to do to be at peace with themselves but the animal instincts kick in and they are not controlled. Everyone knows that anger is not appropriate. Yet, they do get angry. Everything you described is very true but a calm mind will definitely help to do these. ... If I'd just help people and treat them like I'd treat my son, for example, I'd be filled with bliss. However, at a certain point, we do not need anything. I get a calling at times. My breath would slow down by itself and I'd be filled with bliss at random times. Usually, that's an invitation to meditate and connect to my Center.

You're saying that many "at a certain point" know what to do to be at peace with themselves, but they don't do it because the lower nature "kick[s] in". I do agree that it takes a very long time before the lower nature's influence dies away. Some of the lower nature's habits will only die off very slowly. I agree it's not an "all or nothing" process, but rather it's like reclaiming more and more land from the sea. Still, over time, the higher nature will win out more and more, provided we do pause to passionately exercise the will to go inward and be aware of something higher within us, whenever we are reminded.

This issue becomes particularly important if we're seeking to be free at least of the lower mental (not to mention astral, i.e. emotional) attachments by the time we pass from our physical body. We can't afford for the higher nature to be abnormal or unfamiliar to us by that point, but rather, by that point it needs to be "our" usual state. So, we need to get to the point where we get beyond the desire to be free, because inwardly we'll already be living mostly in a state of freedom (from the lower nature).


This is why at our mental level we need to call down, to reflect, something higher, something beyond the mental (the mental being that which includes e.g. the world of all our desires), to replace or at least take over what's going on inside us there. In some way we need to join with a process of "self"-enlargement, or, at least, of ever expanding awareness of how high, how great, how vast and kind and loving our true nature is. The result will be a greater and greater independence between an inner seeming passivity we have that grows greater and greater, and the activity of the outer part of us, which grows freer and freer of the influence of the lower nature. More and more we need to get used to our actions not being actions of our "selves", but of something greater. That's the only way the lower nature can come to eventually be fully transcended. The Higher Mind is indeed such a greater "self", and that is why we need to allow it to take over our actions more and more fully.

[Reinhard]

[QUOTE=Guish;996121]
..... In some way we need to join with a process of "self"-enlargement, or, at least, of ever expanding awareness of how high, how great, how vast and kind and loving our true nature is. The result will be a greater and greater independence between an inner seeming passivity we have that grows greater and greater, and the activity of the outer part of us, which grows freer and freer of the influence of the lower nature. More and more we need to get used to our actions not being actions of our "selves", but of something greater. That's the only way the lower nature can come to eventually be fully transcended. The Higher Mind is indeed such a greater "self", and that is why we need to allow it to take over our actions more and more fully.

Great re-minder! Thank you, TH.

[TraineeHuman]

We don't have just one personality. Certainly, at least, the heart, the intellect, the body, the desires -- each of these has its own personality, plus often a quite different personality at work than at home. Quite often each such personality may not be consistent with itself, because it will often be conflicted, divided against itself. The only thing holding all this together is, in the first place, the HM, the soul. Without consciousness of its presence within, we're all drowning, not waving.

The ego, or an aspect of the ego, does attempt to put up a single self-image and self-projection that's an attempt to stitch together and provide excuses for the behaviors of all the separate personalities. But this only serves to make our life rather chaotic, and is in any case superficial and it leaves us (or, rather, it) dissatisfied.

Moreover, if we look carefully we'll discover that a majority of our thoughts have their own "center of gravity" and their own "momentum", so much so that they come from outside of us. Never mind any parasitic archons or astral beings or whatever -- it suffices to look at the parasitic nature of most of our thoughts, which themselves all have their own "life", in a far more literal and potent and deceptive sense than we would like to imagine. Ditto for more than half of "our" feelings, not just for "our" thoughts. Kahlil Gibran says that your children are not your children -- but equally if not more so, neither are most of "your" thoughts and feelings. Also, the (ordinary) mind is really just a kind of switchboard, a machine that constantly reflects and tries to make sense of all the input coming from many sources, of which it is actually nothing more than a puppet. Thank goodness, however, that rather many of these sources are from higher worlds or planes. And thank goodness that these higher influences and forces strive to guide and lead us, if only we have sufficient sincerity of will to accept them.

All this complexity needs to be simplified, but we can only do it if we find our true center, the secret nature of who we are, and gradually rebuild ourselves from there. Then, we are faced with a new challenge, of continually growing bigger and vaster, ultimately to begin to move more and more in the world of infinity, and of the sameness of all things.

[greybeard]

Therapy can be closely linked to spirituality
I did a N.L.P. course which was very interesting
There is a negotiation of parts which goes on with every decision we make---conflict can happen as there may be pay value for one part but the reverse for another--- can be said that each part has its own unique personality, wants and needs,
NLP can help to unify, balance.

http://nlp-wiki.wikispaces.com/Parts+Integration

Chris

[TraineeHuman]

Seeing how our mind and personality are altogether a "can of worms" will lead us to going within, which is the only solution. Once we commit to going deep within, we'll normally need patience and huge persistence before great things and great experiences happen. True, if we meditate we'll have some glimpses of something great, probably within a few months or so. But if we're to make the transition from a mental (or mental and emotional) being to a spiritual (or formless) one, there's an obvious reason why that's going to take patience. We need to transform our entire world, all our activities and perceptions, the whole universe as we see it, no less. That's because we carry that universe around inside us wherever we go. Making this adjustment alone is a very drawn-out process, and could last a lifetime. It involves a kind of reversal, or rather outgrowing, of the whole momentum of our past. Stop the world, I want to get off. Well, not off, exactly, but "through", and higher, and that without escaping from anything.

How do we transform our human nature, our mind, feeling, life and body, without annihilating them? That's the question. The traditional answer is through an ascension, but individually, and occuring right here, -- not, I suggest, into some elevated "new physical world" that's "4D or 5D". The worlds of 4D and 5D are where we go (at least initially) when we die anyway. And it's much harder to go through such great change there.

This in turn raises the question of how much of what's in our lives and in ourselves we consider we need to abandon and replace. Some claim the answer is nothing, and that only a permanently uplifted and transcendentally energized spirit is what we need, along with an acceptance of life just exactly the way it is. Even that is much easier said than done. What becomes of our current life, our current activities, all the pursuits of our mind and/or our emotions, all the ways we have learnt or taught ourselves to behave so far, all our struggle for survival in a tough world? How do we avoid becoming "lost", now that we have to rely on our "own" inner and higher wisdom in place of the prescriptions of the social and cultural matrix? So you wanted freedom, did you? And are we now ready to lose some of the control we had over ourselves, our life, because we'll discover that the higher wisdom is not so much our "own", but comes from surrender to certain higher forces -- at first surrender to our HM, and then something even higher?

The Bhagavad Gita says that even the most enlightened soul should continue to do all the normal everyday activities and take part in the biological life-cycle and work and so on, because that is the divine plan while we are in this world. Of course, such an individual may grow to the point where they transcend all that. Then they'll be creating something extraordinary, something that's perfection relative to the imperfect outward life they were in before.

[Guish]

in simple terms, we need to go beyond our thoughts and conditioning by having the right concentration and focussed mind. With practice, we'd be behaving in a way based on intuition rather than intellectual debating. This is why in Zen, koans are studied and students need to find solutions not by using critical thinking but by going beyond the intellectual mind. We become intuitive when we stop holding to things, things being thoughts, status, caste, greed, ambitions, desires, basically anything satisfying an average human.

[TraineeHuman]

The notion of "The Fall" has many interpretations or meanings. Most of them are relevant to the fascinating question of what is the difference between one dimension and another.

Simply to be born into the physical world is itself a Fall, because just prior to that we've been living on a higher plane. And if the birth trauma isn't enough to drop us into being trapped by, and therefore falling into, unhappiness, our subsequent life as a child in the physical is. It's not an "original sin", but simply that our society and civilization is very far from being based on enlightenment. It practically forces us to live by the ego, at least in our younger years, unless we have parents who can teach us equanimity and great inner honesty.

And again, the astral levels are worlds of dualities, which means we get born having already "fallen" beforehand into a state of continual awareness of duality.

There's also a much grander sense of "fallen" which we all somehow understand clearly. Limitation, suffering, alienation, negative emotion, unhappy thought, unfulfilment, discord, desire, death. We all have a sense that these can be overcome, at least ideally, through the universal, or the Divine, fully entering and healing the individual and also the physical. Not as if the Divine isn't already at least dormant inside of all of us. The "fallen" world is in some sense one big mistake, it seems. Or, it may be a kind of "perfect" mistake that Source has deliberately made, in order to expand the extent of reality, of existence, further.

There's a very common meme in alternative circles that we, or at least all our suffering and our negative emotions and thoughts, serve as "food" for certain lower astral beings. I don't accept that it's been proved this is true, though I would concede that undoubtedly we serve as somewhat helpless objects, or economic slaves, for archons and reptilians to exercise power over. As Kissinger said, power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.

[TraineeHuman]

One source of confusion, regarding spirituality and how to live, is the difficulty of finding a synthesis between various conflicting schools. This is true even though intuition, and other higher vision, sees all things from the very big picture, holistically. The intuition simply knows with total, direct certainty that all of Reality is one whole, and that all details are just different sides of that one whole. Unfortunately, however, we live in a world where the application of logical reason pervades every corner of reality. Not only that, but the only "normal" way to communicate anything accurately is through the use of logical reason and words, and maybe pictures.

Take the notion of Nature, for example. In the Tantric traditions (and also in Steiner), Nature is seen as the Divine's complete fingerprint, if not finger, so to speak, and therefore the Energy of Nature is worshiped, or relied on, as ultimately the sole force behind all spiritual evolvement. In the Vedic traditions, by contrast, Nature (Shakti) is the source of all illusion and all imprisonment of the soul, and the only way to find Source is to go through and into whatever it is that lies behind inactivity. In the original Taoist teaching and in Zen, the only Nature that counts is the Buddha-Nature. So there "Nature", in the sense of anything that exists at any lower dimensional plane than Source itself, needs to be fully uplifted or transformed. The Buddhist approach, as far as I understand it, is to see everything, including Nature, as a kind of byproduct of awareness, of consciousness. For a Buddhist, therefore, Nature is just something interwoven with the rest of reality, rather like the way a piece of wood has a grain that isn't anything separate from the wood itself.

Four different approaches, or sides of the Truth, not just in theory but in practice as well. Whenever we speak of freeing ourselves from the ego, or overcoming or transcending the ego, we're apparently opting for, or favoring, the Vedic position regarding Nature. One of the biggest drawbacks is that this tells us what we need not to be -- egoic --, but it presupposes we have considerable patience or we have sufficient experience of the more positive alternative, preferably, even, such as the perception of a boundless energy of infinite existence, with infinite activity pouring itself out in limitless Space, in eternal Time. And not as something artificially induced by a noxious substance such as marijuana, but simply a part of our normal, un-"assisted" reality.

The Tantric approach, on the other hand, is to take the ego, the lower self, into higher planes to allow it to be transformed and purified and made wiser by the experience. The known self is not discarded, but expanded more and more, ultimately towards identity with the universe itself.

"Self is everywhere, shining forth from all beings, vaster than the vast, subtler than the most subtle, unreachable, yet nearer than breath, than heartbeat. Eye cannot see it, ear cannot hear it nor tongue utter it; only in deep absorption can the mind, grown pure and silent, merge with the formless truth. As soon as you find it, you are free; you have found yourself; you have solved the great riddle; your heart forever is at peace. Whole, you enter the Whole. Your personal self returns to its radiant, intimate, deathless source."

Mundaka Upanishad (c. 8th - 5th century BCE)

[Guish]

No need for any koan
No need of theology
No need of logic
No need of faith
Find yourself behind the thoughts
Everything comes from there
There is no need to understand anything.

[greybeard]

No need for any koan
No need of theology
No need of logic
No need of faith
Find yourself behind the thoughts
Everything comes from there
There is no need to understand anything.

All I can say to that is "Amen" (meaning total agreement)
Chris

[TraineeHuman]

Understanding is everything -- as long as it's free of any fixed or foregone conclusions (as far as most of the big questions of life are concerned).

[Guish]

A moment in Zazen is worth any explanation. Any understanding in fact comes from that still mind, a mind that doesn't try to understand.

[greybeard]

I suspect it comes down to, find out who is trying to, wants, or needs to understand.
That's really Self enquiry as set out by Ramana---this lead to the "awareness" that the seeming separate entity is non existent.
The Self is complete --nothing separate to understand
Yet--it can not be denied we are in duality until we are not--so to my mind its a question of what seems to be helpful.

This video I found helpful--though in parts the sound quality is not good.

Chris


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDVQC_uHRCI

[TraineeHuman]

I certainly never said that understanding essentially involves any thinking, at all.

In this thread I've emphasized many times that the only way to see the Higher Mind/Self (let alone Source) is through total silence/ stillness.

It's through a totally integrated mind that our problems get solved -- particularly the big problems. However, the solutions do need to get implemented, applied.

[TraineeHuman]

We can see and hear things through eyes and ears, but we only experience them through presence.

~ Swami Vivekananda

[Guish]

I'd say it's wisdom/understanding obtained without relying on only senses or the ordinary mind. It's not even instinctive. It's spontaneous and defies any logic, norm or belief.

[TraineeHuman]

The reason why I've emphasized the importance of stillness so much is simply that whatever is unique to any higher level seems like nothing in the terms of any lower level or plane of existence.

The expression "as above, so below" refers to the fact that any "laws" that do apply on a higher level will continue to apply on any lower level. Equally, though, what makes any higher level higher, and therefore unique relative to the lower level, is that it has fewer laws -- which means that some of the lower level's laws turn into "nothing" there. For instance, gravity doesn't apply once you get to mid-astral levels and higher. Similarly, all features to do with polarity disappear by the time one gets to the Divine worlds, and also they even grow much weaker by the time one gets beyond the conceptual or mental planes.


It's paradoxical and ironic that immortality is hiding somewhere deep within us, if we can only be aware, while we inhabit a mortal and ever so frail body. And that as long as we're not truly aware of that immortality, it remains "nothing" to us, something unknown or at best guessed at.

To add further irony, we may conceptually see that our very notion of time and space doesn't ultimately make sense unless there is a metaphysically prior timelessness and spacelessness. Eventually, through such means as meditation or contemplation but not through reason, we can discover through direct experience that timelessness and spacelessness do exist. There is nothing else that can truly satisfy our thirst, nothing else that can lead us to freedom from suffering. Maybe that's why it can be so fascinating to gaze at the stars, while our spirits try to reach to whatever lies beyond.

[Guish]

Everything leads to the quest of the divine. The body falls sick and the mind gets tired while trying to control things or hold on to things. To end suffering, one has to go beyond the normal routines and ways of thinking. 10 minutes of meditation a day helps me a lot throughout a given day.

[Guish]

The right action can take any form, even violence in some cases. In the Bhagvad Gita, there's a battle between right or wrong. The video I'm putting is about an Indian man who finds a Pakistani girl who got lost in India. He looks after her and gets no help from the embassy to return the girl to Pakistan. He decides to sell all his belongings and get the girl to Pakistan in illegal ways using a Pakistani agent. The guys sells the little girl and the man tears them down. Eventually, the movie is about the guy bringing the girl to Pakistan himself in illegal ways.

He makes reference to the hanuman chalisa at the end. The one who has lord inside can do anything. He sacrifices his job, his love and everything to help a little girl he hardly knows. He operates from a higher plane in this scene. It's probably me over elaborating but my throat Chahra went nuts when I saw the movie. Sorry no subtitles.

dYoVwkhGthQ

[TraineeHuman]

The highest planes of reality are known as the divine worlds. The most characteristic quality of these worlds is their universality and totality.

Unfortunately, the mainstream and traditional Christian, and therefore the Western, account of the Divine, of God, has been that God is both totally "transcendent" of the world and also, paradoxically, "immanent" in it. These two things are a total contradiction when taken together. A "dilemma". So, in practice the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition, and Western thought generally, nearly always --99.9% of the time -- treats God, and all that's "spiritual" or "holy", as utterly beyond the world we know. The supposed gulf between God and human beings is painted as hopelessly vast, and virtually impossible to cross. Any authentic experience of the Divine (and hence even any talk of experiencing Divinely higher planes) is treated with huge scepticism and ignorance.

And, for example, it becomes the biggest puzzle and paradox and the most inexplicable mystery of all how it could ever possibly be that God could become man, and still be divine. For that matter, how could God (or the One) even conceivably exist, if God is so utterly "other"?

In certain traditions of ancient Eastern spirituality we find a conceptually far superior and far more sophisticated and benign and accurate understanding of what divinity is and implies. We find there a more integral and more holistic view of how higher realities relate to the ordinary world. Consider the fact that we don't need to give up the bodily life in order to truly experience the mental and spiritual. Similarly, that we can arrive at a point of view where the preservation of our individual activities is no longer inconsistent with our comprehension of the cosmic consciousness or our attainment to the transcendent and the Divine. Our individuality isn't then lost, but preciously needed. After all, if all the illumined individuals were meant to be removed from the ordinary world to some plane higher, then surely the ordinary world would be doomed to remain in darkness.

Despite a dumbing-down denial inbuilt into all Western culture, the truth is, God (the One) doesn't exclude the universe, but embraces it in the most intimate and inclusive and unitary fashion possible. The individual is a centre of the whole universal consciousness. The universe of form and definition is in fact occupied by the Formless and Indefinable.

This is the true situation, "veiled from us" -- as Yoga and Vedanta and Zen put it --by our ignorance or our wrong consciousness of things. When we attain to knowledge or right consciousness, nothing essential is changed. All that needs to change, ultimately, is our perception, our consciousness.

[Guish]

Hi TH,

Watch at 45.26. It's what I realised too.

G6KyQIo9Q7M

[TraineeHuman]

In this thread I've promoted the use of meditation as a safe means (for people without any mental health problem) of temporarily ascending to higher planes or dimensions, and of doing so quickly -- provided the meditator is being total and one-pointed. I'd like to say some things now about a whole other method, which is perhaps not quite as fully safe but it's also essential.

The method I have in mind is that of the intense cultivation and use of sensitivity. This method is used very, very extensively by all creative artists. Any true creative artist has quite strongly dedicated their life to creating or expressing beauty. The only way they can do this is by continually "sharpening" their sensitivity to make it very, very fine, very subtle. Sensitivity is like a lens, through which the creative artist (in whatever field) can see beauty and originality where others generally don't. Or, if you like, sensitivity is like a laser, that through great fineness penetrates deep beyond superficial appearances to the underlying greater and truer, and more powerful and meaningful, reality.

In my own life at least half of my serious romantic relationships have been with professional creative artists (or, when I was younger, with women who grew up to become that). I'm sure a major reason for my choosing them has been that such women were familiar with all the basics of true spirituality, even though they didn't know that this was true spirituality and it didn't involve religion. Rather, it involves such things as sensitivity and other "super-powers" (or forms of super-consciousness), such as bliss (intense "love") and some accurate mastery of the intuition and also of accessing inspiration and of the continual use of lateral "thinking" in place of conventional thinking.

The cultivation and use and implications of sensitivity is a huge topic, which I can't cover in just one post. For now, I'd like to say something about its biggest danger. Many of the most famous painters and poets and writers of recent centuries became durg addicts or alcoholics. They did that because they couldn't bear the intensity of the pain which which the extreme cultivation of sensitivity exposed them to. In my own experience and that of creative individuals I have known, the way to avoid this problem is to learn to use sensitivity as a tool but not identify with it to the point where (subconsciously) you believe that you are sensitivity.

I'm not saying that you won't experience greater pain as well as greater pleasure/bliss than other people. You will. I've done it, and I've seen it in others. But the only way to get to freedom from unhappiness, freedom from suffering, is to go into deeper and deeper hells in the right way. Those hells will simply be the contents of your own ego materializing as the universe around you. This is what the myth of Orpheus and Euridyce was all about. Euridyce represents your consciousness, and the only way to rescue your consciousness from the grips of suffering is to go into and through hell in the right way. The hell gets worse and worse, but eventually, if you face it fully enough, it will become weaker and weaker and begin to fall away. Sensitivity will make you very vulnerable and hence get you into experiencing hells very quickly, but it will also help you get through them quicker, provided you don't allow it to take you over. This is because the higher a plane or dimension is, the more subtle or fine its "energy" is. Because of this, sensitivity can eventually become an express ticket to the divine worlds.

[Guish]

In this thread I've promoted the use of meditation as a safe means (for people without any mental health problem) of temporarily ascending to higher planes or dimensions, and of doing so quickly -- provided the meditator is being total and one-pointed. I'd like to say some things now about a whole other method, which is perhaps not quite as fully safe but it's also essential.



Hi TH,

Can't meditation cure some mental diseases?

[TraineeHuman]

In this thread I've promoted the use of meditation as a safe means (for people without any mental health problem) of temporarily ascending to higher planes or dimensions, and of doing so quickly -- provided the meditator is being total and one-pointed. I'd like to say some things now about a whole other method, which is perhaps not quite as fully safe but it's also essential.



Hi TH,

Can't meditation cure some mental diseases?

I take it that by "mental problems” you mean what these days are called mood disorders, Guish. I appreciate that Japan didn’t have any psychiatric hospitals/etc at all until some time in the 80s, because the Zen Masters there were extremely good at coping with individuals with mood disorders, and with doing so generally better than any mental health professionals.

Their programs would include some meditation, certainly. But my understanding is that they were and still are master psychotherapists. I believe the psychotherapeutic relationship -- the relationship with the Master -- was probably the primary factor in facilitating the individuals’ improvements, though meditative practice was undoubtedly used as a support.

Certainly, though, a meditation discipline will involve dealing with many, many aspects of the mind (from dealing with such things as silliness or confusion or worry, to such things as the right or faulty emergence of one’s true feelings, to mention only a few) and the will and the subconscious, and also with developing higher forms of “mind” in various ways.

[Guish]

In my experience, sensitivity has been an effect of having a still mind. A still mind allows one to be extremely focused and free of conceptual knowledge. This allows one to see things as they are. Most of the time, we are evaluating things we see and this prevents us from seeing the beauty of things around us. Sensitivity brings a lot of pain till detachment is practised. I may still get depressed watching an injured dog after years of practising detachment. There are many layers to fall.

[TraineeHuman]

In my experience, sensitivity has been an effect of having a still mind. A still mind allows one to be extremely focused and free of conceptual knowledge. This allows one to see things as they are. Most of the time, we are evaluating things we see and this prevents us from seeing the beauty of things around us.

Yes, agreed. I would say the esthetic perception, or the sensitive experience, of anything, involves seeing the thing (or person, or whatever) as it really is. And yes, that means in a detached, nonjudgmental way, divorced from all things of the ego, such as "What's in it for me?" In fact, it involves forgetting about "me" and being absorbed just in the true essence of the thing. Something done for its own sake. Included in this is the joy inherent in the fact of existence. Existence itself is a delightful thing.

Notice also that esthetic perception is something quite different from emotional, conceptual, or (life-force-)energetic perception. It's different from these because it comes from a higher plane than these -- i.e., directly from the Higher Mind.

One of the best ways to learn about how to sharpen your sensitivity is to spend time just watching some part of Nature. Any large tree will do. Through just watching, you'll start to notice more and more details that are beautiful. You'll also begin receiving a reflection of yourself, of what's in some higher planes within yourself.

[Zampano]

I talked to a good friend of mine some weeks ago...he is a medical doctor specialized in psychiatry.
We were discussing religion and the idea of "enlightenment" or Self Realization.
He agreed when you take the I/Ego out or if you dont identify with it, lots of "mental illnesses" would go away.
Because there is no refering point to a "sufferer".

[Guish]

I talked to a good friend of mine some weeks ago...he is a medical doctor specialized in psychiatry.
We were discussing religion and the idea of "enlightenment" or Self Realization.
He agreed when you take the I/Ego out or if you dont identify with it, lots of "mental illnesses" would go away.
Because there is no refering point to a "sufferer".

It's a big task though or in Zen it's said that it's so simple that the task becomes complicated. Basicallly, any meditation makes one realise the fake ness of the invented self, the ego. How many people want to lose their identities? That's why meditation for only relaxation can be difficult and risky as proper meditation transcends one's entire perception of reality and one loses the material side. To a layman, an enlightened would be a loser who gave up on life's challenges. However, TH and I have mentioned that a balanced spiritual life leads to an accomplished physical life as well.

[TraineeHuman]

While we're talking partly about sensitivity to pain, let me mention my preferred way to use it during meditation, for anyone who's up for this. You don't access bliss in the quickest way by seeking bliss, but as the eventual end result of not resisting your pain. You just simply stay very willing to experience whatever pain is inside you. But instead of resisting it, as so many do 99% of the time, just allow it to be present in you, and watch it. This will increase your sensitivity -- to pain.

I've recently said that the myth of Orpheus is a description of how one's spiritual evolution works. For a long time the "hells" one experiences get greater and greater. No sooner have you gotten free of one and there's an even bigger "hell" waiting for you, no matter what you do. But eventually, you can reach the point where the "hells" get smaller and smaller, and are replaced more and more by bliss.

[Guish]

While we're talking partly about sensitivity to pain, let me mention my preferred way to use it during meditation, for anyone who's up for this. You don't access bliss in the quickest way by seeking bliss, but as the eventual end result of not resisting your pain. You just simply stay very willing to experience whatever pain is inside you. But instead of resisting it, as so many do 99% of the time, just allow it to be present in you, and watch it. This will increase your sensitivity -- to pain.

I've recently said that the myth of Orpheus is a description of how one's spiritual evolution works. For a long time the "hells" one experiences get greater and greater. No sooner have you gotten free of one and there's an even bigger "hell" waiting for you, no matter what you do. But eventually, you can reach the point where the "hells" get smaller and smaller, and are replaced more and more by bliss.

Excellent information, Trainee. There's no escaping from the hells during meditation. However, the essence of meditation is to solve or let go of problems in a detached way. In fact, it's an excellent way of dealing with problems in the physical world by not getting emotionally involved in the very problems. Bliss happens in an empty mind. As we get rid of the hells, we create space for the bliss to penetrate.

[TraineeHuman]

I'd like to say more about why I consider the explicit cultivation of one's sensitivity to be an essential practice for anyone who professes to be serious about spirituality. (It's no accident, for instance, that in the Zen monastic system, still to this day in Japan, monks are required to spend two hours per day sharpening their sensitivity through the practice of certain fine arts.)

One might imagine that developing one's sensitivity would lead one to less detachment; to greater impressionability. But in my experience and observation this isn't ultimately so at all. Not for those who develop themselves in a sane and disciplined and drug-free way. Rather, more fully developed sensitivity leads one to ever greater and greater sovereignty and inner power.

This seems to be so because greater sensitivity leads to the experience of not just greater pleasure and pain but to the eventual bypassing of these. Sensitivity, when developed rightly, naturally becomes a deeper and deeper sensitivity to bliss. Once one gets through the very long journey of Orpheus, one is confronted with the experience of greater and greater bliss. And that bliss isn't just something experienced in meditation, but it's a response more and more to real life generally, to more and more of whatever events may happen there.

Before we get to that point, esthetic experiences are a taste of how to experience bliss at such things as tragedy or terror but within the safe setting of a dramatic literary story or eloquent poem. These are just "training wheels" and just approximate experiences of what true and more universal bliss is like, but they're a stepping stone to our appreciating how liberation feels.

[TraineeHuman]

One way to view what spiritual evolution (traditionally also known as "ascension") gives us is that it makes our conscious experience broader, not to mention deeper, truer, higher and more complete. It's a little like we were living in a world where everyone "normally" insists on keeping their eyes closed at all times, and their ears blocked. In such a hypothetical world, anyone who dares to ever open their eyes will be considered very weird and to be behaving in a totally improper and dangerous way. But certain individuals -- those who follow their sensitivity to wherever it leads them -- do open their eyes and even keep them open.

In this way "the world of blindness" is literally seen by such individuals in a new and superior way from how the blind "see" it by means of braille and walking sticks and so on. Here, sight becomes something higher that is brought into the "lower" world of the voluntarily blind. Sight brings into existence things (e.g., color) that were previously unknown and treated as non-existent. This is how sensitivity works. I would even say that sensitivity is always a type of "sight", metaphorically speaking.

Notice that all that was characteristic of the world of blindness -- all that was "lower" -- gets transformed into something with qualities from a "higher" plane. In a similar way, I would say that all that was animal or egoic in us doesn't totally disappear so much as get "upgraded", radically transformed, and imbued with new, higher values, with true intelligence and more sublime awareness.

[TraineeHuman]

Vulnerability (and sensitivity) is usually dangerous, though we can't live without it. We have to make ourselves vulnerable in order to have a romantic relationship, for example. More generally, let me suggest we live fully -- in the sense of not behaving like machines -- solely by means of the process of making one leap of faith after another into the unknown. Indeed, that's the only way to reach anything that's on a higher plane, or to be at a higher plane or even see what's there. And the only way to ever break free of any fear is, ironically, to take a chance (on "optimism") without knowing what all the dangers that await us might be.

The problem is, unless vulnerability is vulnerability to the Divine, it always brings some disappointment and suffering. The dilemma for so many, though, is that they don't consciously know what the Divine, or even the infinite, truly is; and yet, the only way to find the Divine in the first place is through being hugely vulnerable to it.

It's common for individuals to make themselves very vulnerable to a romantic relationship, and also to a parent-child relationship. The problem is, our social conditioning vigorously teaches that a successful romantic relationship, or family, is what brings us happiness. That isn't true. Only the Divine can bring us true happiness. And it's only rarely, in our culture, that a couple can grow their romantic relationship into something that involves and encompasses a relationship with the Divine (which is quite impersonal, for instance). Without the Divine's involvement, the expected payoff of "getting" true happiness doesn't come. Once it becomes clear that it isn't going to come, some degree of trauma ("heartbreak") or attachment is inevitable.

Vulnerability to the Divine is very useful at the time of our death, because vulnerability (in combination with positivity of the will plus the perception or certainty of that which lies higher) is the only way out of fear. If we carry fear with us at the time of death, that (and that alone) enables certain dark forces to temporarily impede our ability to rise into the higher planes. What you believe is what you get: be afraid and you'll get something scary. But if we're vulnerable to the Divine, our attitude will be one of dissolving into the vastness of the infinite or even of the Divine. We won't actually dissolve, either, so much as expand and free up.

[TraineeHuman]

In recent posts I've been looking at sensitivity because it's a different way of approaching the Divine, as a gateway to experiencing higher planes. The Divine, in turn, is something essential for us to make contact with to see reality in the fullest, and ultimately the most accurate, way.

As I've said, sensitivity is the "technology" for our perception of beauty. Most of the ancient Greek philosophers took it for granted that if one explores beauty deeply enough, in doing so one will automatically uncover very deep levels of truth as well; and vice-versa. This is a long way from how most Westerners see things today. That's so even though the former outlook fits quite well with Vedic and Tantric and Taoist understandings. And even though the inventors of major new scientific theories invariably do so by finding some very "elegant" or beautiful new way of viewing things.

Not only that, but it's easy to find examples of how truth and beauty certainly do seem to be closely related. For instance, love is something beautiful if it's "true" love. And it's beautiful exactly to the extent and intensity that it's true love.

Our post-modern, Western way of seeing reality today is heavily based on the outlook and influence of one Greek philosopher, namely Aristotle. Aristotle considered that factual truth was the only way to valid insight or knowledge. This laid the foundation for science to develop, but also things like accountancy, AI, economic rationalisation and "the bottom line" and bureaucracy and corporations, and so on. While Aristotle considered esthetics to be a valid branch of philosophy, he marginalised it from from general philosophy, which for him was the part concerned with finding the truth.

The misinformation industry is based on the assumption that if people can't find the true facts, they'll never find reality. I don't believe that's so at all. Not that it's a bad thing at all to try and sort out what the true facts are.

If we can individually develop sufficient sanity and emotional stability to be able to learn how to use imagination not as a form of fantasy but as a tool for finding the truth, there lies the next step for humankind's -- er -- ascension.

In the past I've described some of the many inbuilt flaws in the scientific method. Just to throw in another one that I haven't mentioned, let's look at what's called the paradox of deduction. This is the truth -- well known to philosophers -- that we can never logically deduce anything, from any starting assumptions, that isn't already contained in and a part of those assumptions. So, deductive logic is in itself far more impotent than we tend to uncritically believe.

[Guish]

In the past I've described some of the many inbuilt flaws in the scientific method. Just to throw in another one that I haven't mentioned, let's look at what's called the paradox of deduction. This is the truth -- well known to philosophers -- that we can never logically deduce anything, from any starting assumptions, that isn't already contained in and a part of those assumptions. So, deductive logic is in itself far more impotent than we tend to uncritically believe.

Good point but I don't think proper research is far from proper ways of experiencing "reality" by Zazen or silent meditation. For example, as a Statistician, I have been trained to be objective. There's a concept called hypothesis testing. You take a claim and test it against data without really getting attached to any claim. Hence, it forces oneself to be empty in search for truth which is exactly what Zen or other meditation techniques do. You assume that there exists something beyond the body and mind and truth is revealed by direct experience with that state. There's no learning by books or do's and don'ts.

[TraineeHuman]

as a Statistician, I have been trained to be objective. There's a concept called hypothesis testing. You take a claim and test it against data without really getting attached to any claim. You assume that ... truth is revealed ...

Well, a hypothesis eventually becomes a theory if there's sufficient evidence to (apparently) support it. But why, do you suppose, is a scientfiic theory considered acceptable only if it's falsifiable?

And note that a theory can only be falsifiable if it's false -- but it's just very hard to prove that it's false, if it's what's considered a good theory.

I guess that does show that however hard science supposedly tries to find the truth, it can never quite get past falsehoods. It can never directly experience the truth. (I'm not stating anything that's in any way controversial to philosophers of science or well-informed scientists.)

[Guish]

as a Statistician, I have been trained to be objective. There's a concept called hypothesis testing. You take a claim and test it against data without really getting attached to any claim. You assume that ... truth is revealed ...

Well, a hypothesis eventually becomes a theory if there's sufficient evidence to (apparently) support it. But why, do you suppose, is a scientfiic theory considered acceptable only if it's falsifiable?

And note that a theory can only be falsifiable if it's false -- but it's just very hard to prove that it's false, if it's what's considered a good theory.

I guess that does show that however hard science supposedly tries to find the truth, it can never quite get past falsehoods. It can never directly experience the truth. (I'm not stating anything that's in any way controversial to philosophers of science or well-informed scientists.)


In testing, there's significance level and a significance level of 100% is impossible to achieve. Therefore, one concludes and gives the validity of the conclusion- how much accurate it can be. Most things like opinions, claims and theories are hypotheses but some closer to truth and some further. Truth is infinite and knowledge is infinite.

[seah]

Hello, I'd like to say thank you to all who contribute to this thread, particularly, in earlier times. So much of the information shared is priceless, could never be found in one place alone, and for me has proven to be most valuable. I'm still sorting through it all, but I've had a read from the beginning, and let me say that is quite a commitment.
It's not that agree with everything, some things resonate and others not, but this journey into the esoteric, for me, anyway, is one I make alone; it is good to find validation of my own experiences and findings reflected in what others share. I have found reinforcement here, additional ways to interpret my personal experiences, and of course, more work, but that's okay, this is the work I live for now.

The exercise about visualizing how great it is to just be and connecting to each individual cell in body is now something I practice daily. I know it was given as a protecting exercise but it feels to me that it is opening previously unused receptors that will lead me somewhere new. Some visualizations have visions injected into them, not of my making. Cells have been added where there were none, some appear more alive/brighter than others, etc.

[TraineeHuman]

Hello, seah. Thank you for your very wise comments and the nice feelings and will. Yes, it does take plenty of "practice" for a long time if one seriously wants to get anywhere. I believe the right balance is to be focused about 90% on actually doing the practices, and no more than 10% on any discussion or reading or thinking. I'm very glad to see that you certainly seem to have that balance about right, as far as I can tell.

Yes, connecting and working with the consciousnesses of one's cells is very important. They keep you in touch with Earth, so to speak. All advanced spirituality is 100% about bringing Heaven "down" into and into integration with Earth (once one has earlier truly experienced and linked with Heaven), though it sounds like you're pretty much aware of that.

As I mention in this thread, I don't really approve of most of what's called "visualization". After all, everything that's useful comes strictly out of the world of no thoughts. And it seems to me that most of what most mean by "visualization" is often almost nothing more than some form of thought, or fantasy.

[seah]

That is a good reminder. I must admit I am not at the 90% level of doing, I do have responsibilities that take me away from practice, and loving pets that usually wonder in or on me and distract me, but it all works out.

I have read that you mentioned you were not fond of visualization before, I guess I have adapted the exercise to include it, not intensionally, it seemed to just happen. May I ask how you would do the exercise without visualizing? Perhaps it is because your mind is so comfortable in meditation and mine is still a work in progress.

Do you think that fantasy is a waste of time, or are you against it because it can lead us into risky situations? I do agree that the world of no thought brings great rewards, but having seen in my work with children, and having raised three of my own, how imagination is such a large part of a healthy childhood, I have always felt that it was worth holding on to a bit of it no matter how old we are.

[TraineeHuman]

I would insist that there's a huge difference between fantasy and properly used imagination, seah. Imagination is the main way we ever know anything (that the world even exists, etc). To use imagination properly and more or less accurately ("objectively", i.e. inter-subjectively, to use the term all professional philosophers recognise to be the correct one) for gaining useful insight (e.g. about your life etc), you do need to be grounded and make the ordinary mind and the ego relatively quiet. (And you do need to be fairly free of mental health problems, because psychotic people are at times simply unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.) Your pets aren't necessarily a distraction, because they also use grounded imagination (though not very self-consciously) in order to know anything beyond pure instinct.

In a recent post I've mentioned how logical deduction cannot possibly ever get you anything more than what's in the assumptions your logical deduction is based on. So, how do you ever possibly get any new knowledge/insight/understanding beyond your current presuppositions -- about anything at all? Only through "induction", i.e., properly used imagination. Anyone familiar with indigenous wisdom of any variety can tell you this. It was the point of the exercise in post #24.

If you get any knowledge through your physical senses -- or through experience on any higher plane whatsoever --, what you get is actually your interpretation of what that experience means, and for making that interpretation you use guess what?

Imagination is one part of the working of the Higher Mind, the Higher Self, existing essentially beyond time and space though interacting with them also.

By the way, another method for grounding oneself that I haven't mentioned comes from Taoist healing. You stand and take deep breaths and on the inbreath slowly move your arms in a circular fashion to "pull down" sky-energy (pure white, or, better yet if you can, gold) into your body and energy field, then as your arms come down on the outbreath you turn your palms to face the ground and you draw in Earth energy (which looks a bright orange color if you happen to be able to see the Earth's aura).

I'm not sure which exercise you're referring to when you ask how do I do it without using visualization. Could you please clarify?

[TraineeHuman]

I suspect "the exercise" you were referring to, seah, was to do with out-of-body "travel". Firstly, let me clarify that that's not really travel at all, but just the illusion of it -- though it took me a few decades to make that fact more and more fully real for me. For me these days, usually I can just be in another state or world of reality, and travel is unnecessary. The "travel" is a bit like if you were at a theatre play and you were standing in the wings backstage. There the equivalent of "travel" would be the scene changes -- furniture being moved if not removed and replaced, and so on. Going beyond "travel" would be the equivalent of being able to see one scene, then the next scene without a break in between. Which of course we do all the time in a movie.

I take it that you're saying that where you need to use visualization is that you consider you need to visualize a scene (in, say, the astral) before you can be there. I'm saying that you don't actually get there by visualizing, but by (more direct) doing, combined with an act of will. When I say an act of will, though, I mean something very subtle and gentle and relaxed, and not anything remotely like a sledgehammer. Will can take you as far as the threshold to the formless worlds and the infinite worlds. Beyond that, it's a matter of "higher will" or "Divine will", but that's more like surrender than "will" as we might think of it.

Paradoxically, the most powerful kind of wanting almost isn't "wanting" at all. It's more a kind of holding still and gathering one's inner forces, to produce something that works kind of like a laser beam, that cuts through and penetrates everything. And it's at its most powerful when it's also a wanting to become free of all wanting.

[seah]

I would insist that there's a huge difference between fantasy and properly used imagination, seah. Imagination is the main way we ever know anything (that the world even exists, etc). To use imagination properly and more or less accurately ("objectively", i.e. inter-subjectively, to use the term all professional philosophers recognise to be the correct one) for gaining useful insight (e.g. about your life etc), you do need to be grounded and make the ordinary mind and the ego relatively quiet. (And you do need to be fairly free of mental health problems, because psychotic people are at times simply unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.) Your pets aren't necessarily a distraction, because they also use grounded imagination (though not very self-consciously) in order to know anything beyond pure instinct.

In a recent post I've mentioned how logical deduction cannot possibly ever get you anything more than what's in the assumptions your logical deduction is based on. So, how do you ever possibly get any new knowledge/insight/understanding beyond your current presuppositions -- about anything at all? Only through "induction", i.e., properly used imagination. Anyone familiar with indigenous wisdom of any variety can tell you this. It was the point of the exercise in post #24.

If you get any knowledge through your physical senses -- or through experience on any higher plane whatsoever --, what you get is actually your interpretation of what that experience means, and for making that interpretation you use guess what?

Imagination is one part of the working of the Higher Mind, the Higher Self, existing essentially beyond time and space though interacting with them also.

By the way, another method for grounding oneself that I haven't mentioned comes from Taoist healing. You stand and take deep breaths and on the inbreath slowly move your arms in a circular fashion to "pull down" sky-energy (pure white, or, better yet if you can, gold) into your body and energy field, then as your arms come down on the outbreath you turn your palms to face the ground and you draw in Earth energy (which looks a bright orange color if you happen to be able to see the Earth's aura).

I'm not sure which exercise you're referring to when you ask how do I do it without using visualization. Could you please clarify?

I apologize for being MIA yesterday.
I see the distinction now, and totally agree. I was referring, of course, to imagination and not fantasy.

I don't feel that I use fantasy at all while doing spiritual work, nor in general, and only begin from a state of higher mind, always, yet my imagination seems to conjure up scenarios, when I follow exercises such as yours. and so when I first followed your exercise, beginning to feel good to be alive and so forth, which I will copy below, I began feeling warmth in certain parts of the body, and scenery of cells formulated in my mind's eye, as I said previously, that is what I meant by "visualizing".

to quote your explanation of exercise, you wrote: "Now, finally, more description of what to
do to protect yourself as I described in post #45.
Close your eyes and focus on what it feels like just simply to be alive. Hopefully you can say it feels OK. Preferably, you can say it feels good, if not wonderful. But I’ll take OK if that’s the best that you can muster up.
So, the method of protection is to feel what it’s like to simply be
alive, and imagine that feeling as joining up all your individual cells.
At the same time, say to yourself with strong intention that the
healing light is protecting, and will continue to protect, yourself and
all your cells in every way. That’s all you need to do."

There is another exercise I do, can't remember where this one came from any longer, but it is about entering your heart, and the same thing happened while doing that one for the first time. I do not will any scenery to appear, it unfolded in my mind's eye, and I follow its lead as a child might while exploring a new part of a forest.

That is interesting about my pets being grounded, that's wonderful to know. I'm so glad you shared it.

Sometime ago, I was guided to Sufi whirling as an exercise, and also am attempting to fit that into my week on a more regular basis. By no stretch of the imagination do I look as eloquent as the dervish dancers, but it brings an attention to my center which I feel I want to explore more of.

Thanks for the new grounding exercise, I will give it a try. I do have issues at times with grounding, especially in winter, when it isn't possible for me to be barefoot outside.

I will answer your following post next.

[Guish]

Paradoxically, the most powerful kind of wanting almost isn't "wanting" at all. It's more a kind of holding still and gathering one's inner forces, to produce something that works kind of like a laser beam, that cuts through and penetrates everything. And it's at its most powerful when it's also a wanting to become free of all wanting.

I always ponder on this. Do I just let go or do I focus on the no-mind state, the stillness?

[Meggings]

Paradoxically, the most powerful kind of wanting almost isn't "wanting" at all. It's more a kind of holding still and gathering one's inner forces, to produce something that works kind of like a laser beam, that cuts through and penetrates everything. And it's at its most powerful when it's also a wanting to become free of all wanting.

I always ponder on this. Do I just let go or do I focus on the no-mind state, the stillness?

The best for me is when, of a sudden, all holding on to the threads of living and doing here in this body are left behind, as I sink gently within and then "up", and sit in near bliss.

There is no wanting for this to occur, there is no focus on a no-mind state - there is merely the brief pause in my living here in which I withdraw and "fall upwards".

This does come upon me with the "tap on the shoulder" by the Father in me. But these are inadequate words used to point the way to what occurs so often each day. There is simply a pause then a touching upon the higher within me.

I feel a tad silly putting these words down, but maybe my experience of this is one gentle non-path-stepping up. Just focusing on getting this written has brought a bliss pressure in my head that nearly stops everything. In the years I lived in the light I had to consciously focus on my partner to hold me "down". Guish has mentioned this kind of thing as well. Often I wonder how Mooji can keep speaking, or Eckhart Tolle, when the bliss descends and takes hold - one's mind goes "out the window" sort of.

[seah]

I suspect "the exercise" you were referring to, seah, was to do with out-of-body "travel". Firstly, let me clarify that that's not really travel at all, but just the illusion of it -- though it took me a few decades to make that fact more and more fully real for me. For me these days, usually I can just be in another state or world of reality, and travel is unnecessary. The "travel" is a bit like if you were at a theatre play and you were standing in the wings backstage. There the equivalent of "travel" would be the scene changes -- furniture being moved if not removed and replaced, and so on. Going beyond "travel" would be the equivalent of being able to see one scene, then the next scene without a break in between. Which of course we do all the time in a movie.

I take it that you're saying that where you need to use visualization is that you consider you need to visualize a scene (in, say, the astral) before you can be there. I'm saying that you don't actually get there by visualizing, but by (more direct) doing, combined with an act of will. When I say an act of will, though, I mean something very subtle and gentle and relaxed, and not anything remotely like a sledgehammer. Will can take you as far as the threshold to the formless worlds and the infinite worlds. Beyond that, it's a matter of "higher will" or "Divine will", but that's more like surrender than "will" as we might think of it.

Paradoxically, the most powerful kind of wanting almost isn't "wanting" at all. It's more a kind of holding still and gathering one's inner forces, to produce something that works kind of like a laser beam, that cuts through and penetrates everything. And it's at its most powerful when it's also a wanting to become free of all wanting.

Hello TraineeHuman, I don't remember the exercise you mention here, but you now understand which exercise I was referring to originally.

I think I know the subtle willing you are speaking of. I actually feel it as not part of the personality at all, more the higher self's wants. For some time, What I sense It wants generally happens for me. There is not much of anything I want these days beyond basic needs.

I don't use visualization in astral traveling. Most of the traveling I experience these days is in tandem with another self, who may very well be my higher self, I am not big on labeling. I don't think we are always in the astral. It has a process and I am learning from it.
Had a lucid dream not long ago of a baby breathing into another baby’s mouth. My other self looked at me and said, ”he is breathing life into you".

I don't have obe's where I try performing tasks which my personality has predetermined while awake and never had much interest in pursuing this type of experience. Though, as a child I would wake up in the night to find the ceiling on top of me, or that's how it appeared to me. I realized later that it was I who was going up to the ceiling.

Again, thank you for your comments and insights even with the little info you had to go on.

[TraineeHuman]

I think I know the subtle willing you are speaking of. I actually feel it as not part of the personality at all, more the higher self's wants. For some time, What I sense It wants generally happens for me. There is not much of anything I want these days beyond basic needs.



Since, as you describe, you're pretty much getting beyond wanting, seah, that means you're getting beyond unhappiness, which I regard as a very important level or stage of enlightenment. (The body-consciousness, the "human animal", will often still continue to experience some unhappiness, and the body will still (perhaps, and probably) usually experience pain or tiredness or disease. But your inner self will be free, beyond unhappiness.)

In terms of the ten Zen Oxherding Pictures, this stage is the beginning of the Ninth Picture. Once you've become free of unhappiness, at your core nothing can rock you, not even the deepest descent into matter, into hell.

People who are at stage Eight or earlier believe (as, for example, Mooji clearly does, or pretends to) that the experience and realization of the One or the Unknowable is the ultimate and highest and most evolved one can reach or be.

I guess I'll be making a post shortly to explain why the Unknowable isn't the highest thing there is. But you don't need to bother about that, seah, because you already implicitly know it and are moreover living it. I would suggest you merely need to keep doing what you're already doing. Then again, I guess freedom does also mean continually doing things in a new way in some non-superficial sense. "If you want something in your life you’ve never had, you’ll have to do something you’ve never done." ~ J. D. Houston. But you'll be doing that naturally, no doubt. I've encountered a few other individuals like yourself through PMs or emails or other encounters. They usually haven't posted much at all, or even not at all. But it was very joyful to hear about what they were experiencing, at such advanced levels.

[TraineeHuman]

If you seriouisly want to believe that Source or the One is just pure unity, let's consider what that belief necessitates must be true. Because the One is total unity (according to you), there can't be any space in it, because space implies difference, and therefore disunity. The very notion of space must be utterly meaningless there, in the One. Ditto with time, for similar reasons.

The One, if it's pure unity, therefore can't include in it anything that's physical, because such a thing would belong to space and time.

Similarly, because the One (when conceived to be pure unity) can't contain difference, it follows that it has to be the plainest, most boring blancmange. And it can't contain one thing inside it, because the latter would get swallowed up and stripped of all identity.

If experiencing the One as pure unity were in fact the ultimate experience, I therefore suggest -- and insist -- that that would be an experience of the uttermost blandness. Obviously, that's not what happens.

Instead, I suggest, what actually happens when an individual experiences one of the Divine worlds is as follows. One experiences the Divine while one is within, and therefore simultaneously experiences with, some lower world, such as the physical. The Divine can only be real and understandable and experiencable to someone in the world of physicality to the degree that that physicality is made real to and communicated to the Divine. In other words, our very experience of the Divine depends entirely on the connection we have between the Divine and the physical or other plane we are in.

And the experience is the experience of the relation between the Divine world and the physical/etc world. It's not an experience of that Divine world itself. That's why the Eighth Oxherding Picture isn't the ultimate. Although the individual at that stage believes they have experienced the Divine, actually they're deluding themselves. What they actually experienced was the relation between that Divine and their physical self. Undoing that delusion fully is what Pictures Nine and Ten are all about.

A very similar argument applies with regard to the Unknowable as to the One.

[TraineeHuman]

Perception of the One (or, rather, of one's true relationship to the One) at first comes in flashes, and is at first quite piecemeal. It usually continues only in flashes at first. It's very important for the ego, and the cruder instincts, to have first been subdued somewhat. Otherwise, those flashes become blinding, and thereby can be very harmful. I think the myth of Icarus is no doubt an attempt to symbolically say that.

This is why it's not a good idea to attempt to have glimpses of higher planes through the use of drugs. I appreciate it can be ever so tempting for someone to seek to gain a glimpse of the ultimate secret of existence. But imagine directly seeing, if only in a flash, that everything you imagined to be reality is just a cardboard cutout, so to speak. And that in the fullest, most complete way possible. The secret turns out to be more shocking than almost any secret could be. Are you sure you would be ready for that? Ready to be torn between knowing and seeing the only true Reality on the one hand, and thereby, initially and for a long time after, being ever so utterly "lost" like a shipwrecked sailor totally at the mercy of the winds and the currents in a wild storm which are far stronger than himself; and meanwhile having to play the game of pretending that the version of "reality" as others see it is real, however tiny and petty and arbitrary it incessantly seems in comparison to the true Reality? Are you ready to do that for the whole of the rest of your lifetime? And will you know how not to "drown", and how to sanely adopt "lostness" as your constant companion in life? And are you ready for a Reality far larger than any you have known or conceived, a Reality that can only be known through pure intuition ("imagination") and inner experience, or by something even higher; but not at all by reason? How unknown, and how proactive, would that be, do you think? A Reality far more complex than anything you have known, yet permeated by a supreme great simplicity that integrates all the complexity? And though reason cannot grasp it, it somehow acts ultimately with supreme reasonableness on its own gigantic scale.

Not that there isn't also a sense of immense significance and connection as well.

[Ikarusion]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-95qGWsbvN7c/Udj0dLazSzI/AAAAAAAADfY/f3XkOW2Fo4s/s400/1335139465_sunglasses-shocked-reaction.gif well, didnt i pick a good name for myself here.

i dont have much to add. as with anything, some people integrate/manage these experiences better then others.
i actually used to seek heavily altered states of consciousness through drugs. i wanted to see something completely different from regular life.
i havent found what i looked for. dreams are more fantastic then drugs. more surreal and interesting.

almost a year ago, you told me im not commited enough to achive obe's and work on myself. you told me how important wanting and commitment is when trying to achive something. you where right and i told myself to hang loose for a couple of months, until my desire grew. wanna guess? im still not meditating regulary and im still smoking cannabis regulary.

but lately, i get less and less satisfaction from it. drugs in general really. i also am very disappointed for making progress with meditation but now, seemingly regressing.

i guess what i want to say is: drugs are not the answer, everything has to come from within. in the end everyone needs to be as independent as possible.
you cant rely on people or drugs for your happiness or anything else. this is strength to me. this is, what im aiming at.
alas, its still a process though and not as easily fulfilled as going to the supermarket for food.

i have great respect for you and for your input here, trainee. thank you.

btw: can i find anything better in regards to tantra teachings of barry long, then what currently is on youtube?
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=barry+long+tantra

[TraineeHuman]

Hello, Ika. Thank you very much or your question, which may be helpful to some others. If you go to the Barry Long Foundation website and check the audio downloads at http://www.barrylong.org/reduced_list/Download+MP3 in addition to the video downloads, you may find what you were looking for.

Regards,
TH

[animovado]

Hello TraineeHuman.


; and meanwhile having to play the game of pretending that the version of "reality" as others see it is real, however tiny and petty and arbitrary it incessantly seems in comparison to the true Reality?

Aren't love and compassion bridging this "gap"?

[TraineeHuman]

animovado, I'd suggest that genuine, pure love is Divine, and not a part of the lower planes. The trouble is, love is highly abused, and that's precisely because what often goes on on the lower planes pollutes it. A spouse or a parent or a teacher will in effect say: "I'll love you provided you always satisfy the following list of my conditions ..." A romantic partner will in effect say: "I'll love you, but that's provided I can get you, and have you as mine." And so on. That's only two examples.

On the other hand, yes, pure, genuine Love brings the Divine into the everyday, for someone who can access it in the midst of their absorption in and involvement with the everyday. That rarely happens, though -- in spite of what all the media conditioning tries to tell us. What we usually get, if we're able to bring in the higher at all, is bliss. That only brings a kind of vague taste or reminder of the Divine.

[Guish]

animovado, I'd suggest that genuine, pure love is Divine, and not a part of the lower planes. The trouble is, love is highly abused, and that's precisely because what often goes on on the lower planes pollutes it. A spouse or a parent or a teacher will in effect say: "I'll love you provided you always satisfy the following list of my conditions ..." A romantic partner will in effect say: "I'll love you, but that's provided I can get you, and have you as mine." And so on. That's only two examples.

On the other hand, yes, pure, genuine Love brings the Divine into the everyday, for someone who can access it in the midst of their absorption in and involvement with the everyday. That rarely happens, though -- in spite of what all the media conditioning tries to tell us. What we usually get, if we're able to bring in the higher at all, is bliss. That only brings a kind of vague taste or reminder of the Divine.

Teaching provided me with a good platform. In the past, one parent complained about my teaching and I had to set my ego aside and give my full attention to the student. Being a good teacher is being selfless as one has to teach students who hate the subject and sometimes hate the teacher as well. Teaching Mathematics enabled me to have an objective point on view on things too.

[animovado]

Thanks for your answer TraineeHuman,
but maybe I should replace the term "love" with "empathy" in my question above for a better understanding. That would fit much better my comprehension of love on the lower planes, although I am in lack of an appropriate tool for measuring spiritual planes, anyway.

See you,
animovado

[seah]

I think I know the subtle willing you are speaking of. I actually feel it as not part of the personality at all, more the higher self's wants. For some time, What I sense It wants generally happens for me. There is not much of anything I want these days beyond basic needs.



Since, as you describe, you're pretty much getting beyond wanting, seah, that means you're getting beyond unhappiness, which I regard as a very important level or stage of enlightenment. (The body-consciousness, the "human animal", will often still continue to experience some unhappiness, and the body will still (perhaps, and probably) usually experience pain or tiredness or disease. But your inner self will be free, beyond unhappiness.)

In terms of the ten Zen Oxherding Pictures, this stage is the beginning of the Ninth Picture. Once you've become free of unhappiness, at your core nothing can rock you, not even the deepest descent into matter, into hell.

People who are at stage Eight or earlier believe (as, for example, Mooji clearly does, or pretends to) that the experience and realization of the One or the Unknowable is the ultimate and highest and most evolved one can reach or be.

I guess I'll be making a post shortly to explain why the Unknowable isn't the highest thing there is. But you don't need to bother about that, seah, because you already implicitly know it and are moreover living it. I would suggest you merely need to keep doing what you're already doing. Then again, I guess freedom does also mean continually doing things in a new way in some non-superficial sense. "If you want something in your life you’ve never had, you’ll have to do something you’ve never done." ~ J. D. Houston. But you'll be doing that naturally, no doubt. I've encountered a few other individuals like yourself through PMs or emails or other encounters. They usually haven't posted much at all, or even not at all. But it was very joyful to hear about what they were experiencing, at such advanced levels.

I had to look up the ox-herding story as I was not familiar with it. Though, I don't feel worthy of the 9th position on a list of ten, I'll agree that it does appear to describe my place in things; "In the ordinary events of life are found the most profound truths." This is a wondrous gift to have been handed so late in a life I had pretty much figured would not ever know joy. The beauty of birds and trees in the first light of morning, can bring tears to my eyes, it sounds corny, but in the moment...I think, there is nothing more.

So upon reaching the 10th stage in the Zen practice does the practitioner stay content with his "enlightenment" and consider himself a teacher? I think we are all teachers, as this thread proves by sharing our experiences with one another.
I hope enlightenment for me is only a stepping stone on a river of many other moments of enlightenment. It feels like I've known a couple already.

The other thing I want to mention is that in my experience it hasn't been a continuous uphill learning curve of spiritual growth, I mean it isn't linear for me. There are days where I seem to take two steps back, can't find my center, and ego is challenging me, those are the days I listen or read Tolle. Next day is usually better.

[TraineeHuman]

I had to look up the ox-herding story as I was not familiar with it. Though, I don't feel worthy of the 9th position on a list of ten, I'll agree that it does appear to describe my place in things; "In the ordinary events of life are found the most profound truths." This is a wondrous gift to have been handed so late in a life I had pretty much figured would not ever know joy. The beauty of birds and trees in the first light of morning, can bring tears to my eyes, it sounds corny, but in the moment...I think, there is nothing more.

...

The other thing I want to mention is that in my experience it hasn't been a continuous uphill learning curve of spiritual growth, I mean it isn't linear for me. There are days where I seem to take two steps back, can't find my center, and ego is challenging me ...

That's a harder post to respond to than it may seem, seah.

Firstly, let me suggest that for someone who has presumably had quite a number of peak-experiences in the past, which I assume would be true of you, the absence of any peak-experiences now may mean, or partly mean, that the contrast between "peak" and "everyday" is no longer so great. I've noticed that, regardless of what "level" of spiritual evolution an individual might be at, everyone seems to sell themselves short in the following way. They don't realize that nothing they experience gets lost. It's not a case of: "This peak-experience lifts me higher and then I drop back down again to where I was." That's simply a trick of the ego's. It's actually a matter of that peak-experience/realization always taking you to a higher level, permanently. Deep inside, you don't ever lose the insight or the increased level of evolution such an experience brings. In this way, if things feel much the same most of the time these days compared to how it was in the past, for someone such as yourself that's a good sign, and again, would tend to suggest what I would recognize as early Picture Nine.

I'll respond to the rest of your post in a different post from this one. One of the problems is that I have to write in English -- one of the ordinary mind's languages --, which means the mind will always, always start from a totally divisive attitude towards, and interpretation of, everything. So, when one is trying to talk about genuine oneness, one needs to try to indicate how to "neutralize" the mind's bias and narrowness. It would probably take a whole book to cover that, but I'll see what I can do.

[Ezekiel]

Enlightenment is a process : the destination is the present - whether that be a state of pleasure or pain ; dispassion is the indifference that allows the quiet sentience of existence to shine forth… a relentless light - irrepressible… where all of the answers to life are immediate - our troubles are self inflicted - for there is perfect ego - I or self… this is the whole aspect of life ; the infinite existential psyche - from which the worlds emerge as stars and planets as simple as past seconds and deaths of intergalactic lives… our balance is a decision - which in turn is determined via individual emotional thresholds : what knowledge are we prepared in strength to witness… veiled as we are… occulted as we opted to be…

Evil the denial of truth | Love an endless sea…

31931
-
I am… in the word
Exist in the world
See in the breath
Live in the wind
Pass as the light
Quiet I die…
A life in the flames
the Bonfire of experience…

[TraineeHuman]

maybe I should replace the term "love" with "empathy"

Excellent point, animovado. And yes, I agree that empathy is often the most important kind of understanding. At least whenever we're involved in communication or relationships with people.

More generally, I would say that understanding is the supreme virtue we need to ideally have -- on all planes. Though it's also very important, of course, to have the closest we can manage to get to genuine love (whatever that may really imply) -- not only of others but of everything around us -- at any particular moment. There are other virtues I guess I would list as important too, including sincerity, honesty, originality, tolerance, generosity, endurance, forgiveness, including self-forgiveness, responsibility, and gratitude.

But for "normal" individuals that doesn't solve everything. In a world of polarity and conflict, there is chaos and disharmony that currently is part of its very nature. It's only if someone succesfully brings Heaven down into Earth that some small piece of the polarity can get fully transformed and resolved. Suffering, imperfection, problems, unavoidable catastrophes big or small -- these seem to be the rule of what prevails on Earth for most people. They have to live with that, even though they know it's not legitimate, particularly whenever it's manmade.

As we see Ezekiel has no doubt noticed, this also brings up what's known as the problem of evil. In other words, why should evil even exist? And how does what's evil, or supposedly evil, come about? Basically, if you truly, completely didn't have desire, and you were sufficiently unattached to both pleasure and pain, you wouldn't know or experience that there was such a thing as "evil" -- would you? What happened would just happen, and you would simply seek to deal with it in an optimal way. A "good" way, yes, but I claim that good (or God) simply has no relationship to evil. I suspect that may also be close to the point you probably had in mind, animovado.

[TraineeHuman]

"In the ordinary events of life are found the most profound truths." This is a wondrous gift to have been handed so late in a life I had pretty much figured would not ever know joy. The beauty of birds and trees in the first light of morning, can bring tears to my eyes, it sounds corny, but in the moment...I think, there is nothing more.


There's an important transition from living by ideals or other mental concepts, to a state of being primarily under the control of the Superconsciousness. To the mental-based consciousness that almost everyone lives in, anyone under the Superconsciousness's influence seems to continually be guilty of lateral "thinking". Actually, though, that's simply a matter of continually responding directly to reality, without the veil of a mentally constructed "world". It means that every moment is being created anew, and the individual seems to be compulsively doing absolutely everything in an original if not outrageous way, often without noticing that they're being orginal and not quite conventional -- to others, perhaps, seemingly being original for the sake of being original. To the best of my knowledge and observation, I believe this is probably the primary change that marks entry into the Ninth Picture stage.

You could describe that as living more fully in the here and now, except that I'm afraid, if I may say so, that most won't have much practical appreciation that that's what being more fully in the here and now would actually be like.

I'd suggest that if hearing the birds sing touches you so deeply you want to weep, seah, then probably what's moving you so much is the glory of the reflection of what's inner to your true self (and non-self), and I would say that's certainly an example of the Superconsciousness at work in you.

As I see it, the Tenth Picture describes a stage where the Superconsciousness is working in such ways, except it has, in turn, now been (fully?) taken over by the Divine. The Tenth Picture talks of one's being able to do miracles, apparently everywhere one goes, as one's ordinary state.

Of course, anyone (well below the Tenth Picture level) who is a genuine psychic healer will be able to perform certain physical healing miracles -- and have their actions described as such by the most sceptical physicians. How psychic healing works is that the healer surrenders their Higher Mind (not to mention their thoughts, emotions and will) to the Superconsciousness. In a sense, the more fully the healer can let go of self-consciously doing anything, the more effective the healing will be. Interestingly, psychic healing also involves the Superconsciousness then temporarily bringing in the Divine, no less. But that is done as much by the client as by the healer.

I believe the Tenth Picture is referring more to fuller mastery over such things as life and death, and, for example, being able to create a new physical body for oneself without having to go through the usual biological channels. I used to know Barry Long, whom Ikarusion mentioned recently. I saw Barry quietly do some out of the ballpark spectacular miracles at times. However, he died of cancer and suffered considerable bodily pain in the final years. Did he perhaps have the potential ability to heal himself of that but never got to learn how to develop the particular skill required? Or perhaps not -- at least, based on his painful last years he didn't seem to have a fully developed "supernatural" power over life and death generally.

Another feature of the Ninth Stage is that it's necessary to develop the awareness level, the "strength", of the body-consciousness to at least a certain issue-free (i.e., relatively "karma-free") level. Otherwise, one won't be able to deal with the everyday with equanimity and upliftment, because one's instrument for doing everyday things won't be evolved enough to express itself that way. Many traditional and other spiritual practices involve initially and for a long time repressing or neglecting the body-consciousness's needs (e.g., in relation to sexuality). That isn't so surprising when one considers that it isn't easy to live life not only at the phsyical and emotional/mental levels but at other levels as well -- all at the same time. But eventually there's a point where everything needs to get fully integrated.

[animovado]

As we see Ezekiel has no doubt noticed, this also brings up what's known as the problem of evil. In other words, why should evil even exist? And how does what's evil, or supposedly evil, come about? Basically, if you truly, completely didn't have desire, and you were sufficiently unattached to both pleasure and pain, you wouldn't know or experience that there was such a thing as "evil" -- would you? What happened would just happen, and you would simply seek to deal with it in an optimal way. A "good" way, yes, but I claim that good (or God) simply has no relationship to evil. I suspect that may also be close to the point you probably had in mind, animovado.

Yes, TraineeHuman.
I don't like to speak for God, but in my life it is like when I live to the fullest and there fits no hair between me and my experience of this world, this "me" is dissolving and I AM the experience. I can see something our mind calls evil in it's bizarre beauty, in believing things that are actually not true.

I gravitate to the idea that God has no relationship at all, because it IS everything.

[greybeard]

animovado. Thats true --in normal use of the word relationship you can not have a relationship with your self.
According to Mooji what you are is neither subject nor object and can not be described.
I like "One without a second" as a pointer.

Chris

[seah]

"In the ordinary events of life are found the most profound truths." This is a wondrous gift to have been handed so late in a life I had pretty much figured would not ever know joy. The beauty of birds and trees in the first light of morning, can bring tears to my eyes, it sounds corny, but in the moment...I think, there is nothing more.


There's an important transition from living by ideals or other mental concepts, to a state of being primarily under the control of the Superconsciousness. To the mental-based consciousness that almost everyone lives in, anyone under the Superconsciousness's influence seems to continually be guilty of lateral "thinking". Actually, though, that's simply a matter of continually responding directly to reality, without the veil of a mentally constructed "world". It means that every moment is being created anew, and the individual seems to be compulsively doing absolutely everything in an original if not outrageous way, often without noticing that they're being orginal and not quite conventional -- to others, perhaps, seemingly being original for the sake of being original. To the best of my knowledge and observation, I believe this is probably the primary change that marks entry into the Ninth Picture stage.

You could describe that as living more fully in the here and now, except that I'm afraid, if I may say so, that most won't have much practical appreciation that that's what being more fully in the here and now would actually be like.

I'd suggest that if hearing the birds sing touches you so deeply you want to weep, seah, then probably what's moving you so much is the glory of the reflection of what's inner to your true self (and non-self), and I would say that's certainly an example of the Superconsciousness at work in you.

As I see it, the Tenth Picture describes a stage where the Superconsciousness is working in such ways, except it has, in turn, now been (fully?) taken over by the Divine. The Tenth Picture talks of one's being able to do miracles, apparently everywhere one goes, as one's ordinary state.

Of course, anyone (well below the Tenth Picture level) who is a genuine psychic healer will be able to perform certain physical healing miracles -- and have their actions described as such by the most sceptical physicians. How psychic healing works is that the healer surrenders their Higher Mind (not to mention their thoughts, emotions and will) to the Superconsciousness. In a sense, the more fully the healer can let go of self-consciously doing anything, the more effective the healing will be. Interestingly, psychic healing also involves the Superconsciousness then temporarily bringing in the Divine, no less. But that is done as much by the client as by the healer.

I believe the Tenth Picture is referring more to fuller mastery over such things as life and death, and, for example, being able to create a new physical body for oneself without having to go through the usual biological channels. I used to know Barry Long, whom Ikarusion mentioned recently. I saw Barry quietly do some out of the ballpark spectacular miracles at times. However, he died of cancer and suffered considerable bodily pain in the final years. Did he perhaps have the potential ability to heal himself of that but never got to learn how to develop the particular skill required? Or perhaps not -- at least, based on his painful last years he didn't seem to have a fully developed "supernatural" power over life and death generally.

Another feature of the Ninth Stage is that it's necessary to develop the awareness level, the "strength", of the body-consciousness to at least a certain issue-free (i.e., relatively "karma-free") level. Otherwise, one won't be able to deal with the everyday with equanimity and upliftment, because one's instrument for doing everyday things won't be evolved enough to express itself that way. Many traditional and other spiritual practices involve initially and for a long time repressing or neglecting the body-consciousness's needs (e.g., in relation to sexuality). That isn't so surprising when one considers that it isn't easy to live life not only at the phsyical and emotional/mental levels but at other levels as well -- all at the same time. But eventually there's a point where everything needs to get fully integrated.

for now, just some quick thoughts on this post, TrainingHuman. Yes, living in the here and now is what it feels like for me.

Do you see superconsciousness = higher self? this would be how I would interpret it.

It is quite possible there is some healing ability developing in me, but so far it is untapped. It feels as though I am perhaps a shaman in training, it isn't clear yet. For now, I'm being kept too busy with survival issues which makes it impossible for me to surrender the ego entirely, but there have been physiological changes, and there is some lively energy in my hands and feet.

As for Barry Long possessing such abilities and yet succumbing to cancer in the end, it seems that is often the case with those who give of themselves to others. I wonder if during a healing session the healer isn't always out of the way completely, and unknowingly is allowing the ills of others to enter into his/her bioenergetic body.

On the tenth picture, I appreciate the insight. I wasn't aware of one's ability to grow an entire new body, that would definitely be miraculous. I can't imagine the process.

On karma, an interesting aspect of how it presents itself in my life, for at least a decade now, is that the turn around time is between 24-48 hours. I don't seem to accumulate any.

Do I understand you correctly in saying it is beneficial for spiritual advancement to suppress one's sexuality?

[TraineeHuman]

Do you see superconsciousness = higher self? this would be how I would interpret it.

No. The Superconsciousness is the bridge between the Divine worlds and the HM. The Superconsciousness doesn't consider itself to be "individual", or attach to any one individual point of view or position, while the HM does.

However, there's a huge amount of misunderstanding here because "individuality", or independence, is the fundamental basic concept of Western thought. In other words, to be real is supposedly to be an independent particle or object -- according to Western thought. In ancient Eastern spirituality, to be real was not to ever be an object or a "this" at all. "Absence" was considered to be ontologically prior to "presence". So, I don't think anyone who doesn't frequently have experience of realities such as Superconsciousness would be wise to even try to conceptualize about all this. The concepts only make sense to help one understand one's experiences. Not the other way around. Experience is king. Direct, full experience. As I've said, experiencing or meditation or self-reflection should take up at least 90% of one's time. Because of that, I considered putting this response in a PM to you, actually, instead of posting it publicly here.



I wonder if during a healing session the healer isn't always out of the way completely, and unknowingly is allowing the ills of others to enter into his/her bioenergetic body.

Not at all, if the healer knows how to do psychic healing properly. Part of the skill of being a psychic healer is to have learnt how to "radiate" the energy without taking any negative energy in, at all. In fact, the healer collaterally gets healed somewhat too, because of the interaction with their Superconsciousness.


On karma, an interesting aspect of how it presents itself in my life, for at least a decade now, is that the turn around time is between 24-48 hours. I don't seem to accumulate any.

Yes, the more fully developed an individual's awareness is, the quicker the feedback they get from the universe, generally speaking, and usually.


Do I understand you correctly in saying it is beneficial for spiritual advancement to suppress one's sexuality?

This is almost impossible to respond to briefly, but here are afew thoughts. For some individuals I suppose voluntary prolonged abstinence from sex can be beneficial, for certain periods of their life. But as I said, at some point everything needs to get reintegrated, including all the needs and drives and conscioousness of the body-consciousness.

The key to becoming free of the ego (and of attachment, and of unhappiness) is to become free of desire. Sexual desire is one of the strongest forms of desire. And from a practical point of view, I guess some self-denial early on while one is seeking to teach oneself to overcome any form of desire is indeed very helpful and recommended. It's not a matter of (temporary, mild) asceticism for asceticism's sake, though.

Unfortunately, in our civilization sexuality carries extremely, gigantically complex social and mind-control overlays. I've noticed a reaction to that from many Western spiritually-inclined individuals, particularly youngish males who've attended segregated schools. For instance, for a long time they seem to have unusual difficulty in learning how to maintain a stable, good, long-term physical relationship. I wonder, are they trying to explore the implications of what true freedom may supposedly mean, and they subconsciously want to avoid having children because that would tend to force them to become a wage-slave while in their twenties? On the other hand, no doubt a female partner will generally be extremely god at providing feedback that will assist their self-improvement.

[Ezekiel]

Ego is self + I am Infinite…

32042

Subject + object are parts of self : also infinite…

Passions are emotions + physical sensations : these are infinite too…

32040
…
As for sex + the infinite erotic…
-
32043
-
Are we energetic vampires that vicious eviscerate
or shall we be enlightened lovers who offer all for life + truth




? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY_jjjah_XE)





…

In what spirit then shall we love each other?
-
32038
-
In devotion from pure hearts expressive in the
intense physical knowledge of these temporal vessels…?
…

[a perspective worlds apart from the evils of false shame]

32039
…

Or perhaps in place of a righteous lust for spiritual perfection
we ought to persecute ourselves in a vulture wretchedness
…through devilish incarnations of exploitative intention + aesthetic
degradation : the violation of truth via its objective | subjective forms…

|

An infernal vision also known as rape…
that is to violate the self…

+ this is the Quintessence of Evil…



NB
-
Desire is a phenomenon within self - as is revulsion… whilst to be
enslaved to the passions is to develop a negative style of existence…

slaves require liberation

+ to liberate oneself requires the dissolution of the negativities…
sex is the sensualities : to an extent that eclipses orthodox thought…

all sentience is in essence sensation
experience + life + existence :
each in their substance are sensual

|

therefore as with all of the infinite in this theatre
of experience the question is how to be + what to do

a simple riddle of intention… + limitless possibilities…

which brings the discussion back to evil…

the rejection of self…

†

[TraineeHuman]

Ezekiel, I'm very glad to hear that you apparently have a strong awareness of your consciousness as something that's infinite. That would mean that you are in touch with, if not in conscious union with, your Higher Mind. Yes, the journey of spirituality does involve learning to see infinite significance and beauty even in all ordinary things (and in all sexual experience), and ultimately even understanding that all evil is illusory in a certain sense (though not in certain other senses, I would argue).

Unfortunately, your assertion that ego is infinite contradicts the accepted understanding of what the ego (as that term is standardly used in spiritual traditions) is, and I'm not sure what you mean. The whole point is that attachment (to use a word different from "desire" and "ego") does always, always bind us and limit us and bar us from participating in the freedom of the infinite.

There are two kinds of pleasures. There are attachment-based pleasures, and attachment-free pleasures. The attachment-based pleasures are the cause of all unhappiness. By their very nature they also are never infinite, but imprison us instead, though we don't immediately realize that. If someone is angry, for instance, for that time they 100% become the anger. They temporarily lose all touch with infinity or with anything higher.

To become freer from the attachment-based pleasures takes ever so much work. This is partly because we are born with an animal nature which does have attachment-based drives, including some that are sexual or develop into sexuality later. Some of these drives are essential to our survival in our first four years, particularly the need to attach to our mother. It takes work to outgrow these, because in our early years our animal drives teach us to deal with the physical world solely through habits and comfort zones -- which are all 100% attachment, even though we take all these for granted and pretend to ourselves that they're neutral and part of the furniture.

Indeed, if you're not doing something original and creating something totally new in every single moment, then you're totally bound up in the prison of attachments. Sorry. Of course, the great majority of people are that, by and large, most of the time. And that's the problem. I even often get the "bad smell" of habit when I mix with meditators, etc, who, in most cases, depend so hugely on their "spiritual" habits -- an oxymoron if ever there was one, I'm afraid.

[Enola]

One thing that can be confusing is the way higher self (or over-soul) is used to refer to many different consciousness layers. Or it can mean both your casual, buddhic, or atmic body. I guess the same can be said for the term "lightbody" (if it's not a complex of the higher bodies).

[TraineeHuman]

Welcome to the Forum, Enola. I'd heartily agree that what's most important is simply having the experience of something that's higher, rather than bothering about exactly what level one might be experiencing. After all, we're talking about the most pleasant and sublime kinds of human experiences here. What use would they be if we didn't enjoy every drop?

Unfortunately, I'm not so familiar with the terminology you apparently prefer to use. Most of the time in this thread, I've favored using the standard Vedic terms (or those of transpersonal psychology): Higher Self/Mind, then Superconsciousness, then Source/the Divine/the One. Each of these levels of experience is very distinct, as I've tried to explain very, very extensively in the course of this thread.

I don't understand how there could be such a thing as an "Atmic body", though, Atman being the lowest plane of Source or of the Divine worlds. Surely anything that's a body needs space to exist in, and in Atman (as everywhere in the worlds of pure Source), there's just no such thing as space, in my experience. I like to experience Divine worlds with my eyes open, and when I experience Atman with eyes open, it looks to the eyes like a black but bliss-filled and intelligent voidness that simultaneously permeates absolutely everything in the physical world and makes everything physical look transparent and somehow hollow.

Similarly, I don't have any experience of Superconsciousness as being possible with, or requiring, anything like a "body". Superconsciousness is far too slippery and formless and unpindownable for that. I suspect it corresponds to what you call the buddhic aspect. Superconsciousness also exists beyond all time and space, for example, but it's not universal while the Divine worlds are.

I've come across the term "Causal self" apparently being used to refer to the Higher Mind/Self. I've also come across it apparently being used to refer to a mental level of reality that exists at a slightly lower plane.

As far as I'm aware, when people talk of a "light body" they usually seem to be referring to something in one of the formless worlds, and that could be either the Higher Mind/Self or the Superconsciousness.

I hope that can contribute slightly to overcoming the confusion.

[Enola]

Yes. This is something that seems to be very confused. But I think this could be a good representation.


https://omraamwordsoflight.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/the-subtle-bodies.gif?w=651&h=560


http://omraam-words-of-light.org/2015/01/24/expressing-our-true-divine-nature/

[Guish]

TH,

How would you describe the difference between the spirit and the soul?

[TraineeHuman]

TH,

How would you describe the difference between the spirit and the soul?

In my experience the word "Spirit" is mostly used by Christians. As far as I understand, it's primarily used to refer to the Universal Soul. The main spiritual task is for the individual soul to contact and be more and more transformed by the Universal Soul. (This also requires the individual soul to be developed beyond so much identification with the ego and personality and into a very active Higher Self/Mind first, before such contact can even be remotely possible. Unfortunately, most Christians, for example, don't talk to "God" but to some part of themselves, in a form of self-hypnosis, I'm sorry to say.)

The problem, though, is that the Universal Soul is unknowable intellectually and emotionally. It's not unknowable to itself, though! This means that we -- something that is the true "us", however veiled -- need to become it in some way, at least temporarily (in an enlightenment experience), to lift the elephant by becoming the elephant. Becoming, or even "being at one with", is a form of knowing whereby Source isn't unknowable after all. That's why in this thread I invented the "being at one with" exercise and gave it so much emphasis.

Or else, we need to somehow develop a certain kind of intuition that operates at a level quite beyond any form of mind or Mind and directly and truly taps into the Universal Soul in some other way -- more and more fully. That's where the Superconsciousness comes in, and that's precisely its function (plus "being at one with" Source). But that's way beyond where individuals mostly are at.

[TraineeHuman]

A major topic in Western esoteric spirituality is that of "thresholds". Thresholds are the shaky bridges we have to get across to spiritually evolve further or higher. In esoteric Western traditions, each threshold is often said to have its own personified "guardian", supposedly some powerful being who absolutely won't allow us to cross unless we pass certain tests, and, indeed, unless we defeat or slay that guardian.

I would suggest that thresholds are important because they are to do with our freeing ourselves from our own unconscious and subconscious and shadow -- and thereby of the most major or powerful parts of the ego. In keeping with Eastern esoteric traditions, I would suggest that the adversary we need to overcome is not something sitting at the threshold, but rather, it's the fact that so much of our behavior comes from the unconscious or subconscious part of ourselves, and tends to get stuck or comfortable there through habits, which form themselves effortlessly. Many unconscious physical habits are practically useful if not necessary, but not so our undesirable psychological habits.

In my experience, the biggest value of such things as meditation is seen when it breaks through some threshold inside us. And when it does so break through the most effectively, there is a kind of shell of unconsciousness that energetically gets broken or dissolved. Such unconscious energy always seems to manifest itself physically, as a feeling of great pressure around the third eye or some part of the skull. I come across individuals who get to the considerable skill level of being able to elicit the pressure of their unconsciousness in this way. But they then make the mistake of resisting that pressure, complaining about it. The right way to deal with it is to totally accept it and feel good about it and not resist it at all. This very quickly makes it something blissful and subtle instead of (supposedly) very unpleasant, and also makes it very quickly dissolve and disappear.

All suffering, other than physical discomfort, is caused by our resisting the experience. Resisting the unconsciousness in ourselves is trying to fight suffering with even greater suffering.

[Guish]

Th, your post reminds me of Buddha fighting Mara by not fighting. He didn't react to any of the mind games and eventually the mind couldn't control him. That was his biggest teaching; Complete silence with detachment and this is the essence of Zen as well.

[TraineeHuman]

Can you simply let everything go?

Can you let go of all "normal" knowing, which is then replaced by a lightness and freedom which come from dropping it all, from not knowing (and not-knowing) -- well, everything?

That not-knowing is what I've also been calling "stillness".

Can you practise not-knowing, not as any kind of mechanical exercise but as a deeper and greater though "emptier" form of awareness? Not a negating of anything, either. Whenever conscious not-knowing underlies whatever you're doing or knowing, there's a different and fuller and more intimate kind of "knowing" that gets born out of it effortlessly. That's what the Higher Mind is, and does.

Over time you can learn to drop everything more and more deeply and permanently --preferably not while in some monastery, but in the midst of busyness and all the messiness and chaos of everyday life. Deeper and deeper. Do it fully enough, and you're in the early stages of enlightenment, of Divine Mind.

The paradox is, we all already know how to do this. It's just a matter of doing it.

[Guish]

Th, your post reminds me of this Zen story. We won't need to let go if we do not hold as from the start.

Once upon the time there was an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. “Such bad luck,” they said sympathetically.

“Maybe,” the farmer replied.

The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. “How wonderful,” the neighbors exclaimed.

“Maybe,” replied the old man.

The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.

“Maybe,” answered the farmer.

The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son’s leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out.

“Maybe,” said the farmer.

[TraineeHuman]

Yes indeed, Guish. Learning to continually drop everything, and making that our baseline, our starting point, frees us from the self-imposed prison of living with our own (usually unfounded) interpretations of everything. Those interpretations include our snap judgments that something is (absolutely, for us) good or bad. Also, ideally, let me add, to drop everything involves being able to at least sometimes drop the petty non-stop game of "like versus dislike". Well, that's the baseline, so to speak. Once we have some of that freedom, though, there are more things for us to master too, that are also a part of what true detachment means.

Following on from and adding to my previous post, then, and I hope this doesn't add confusion: one misconception I come across quite often regarding what is detachment is the notion that detachment means withdrawal only. Many traditional ascetics and monks and nuns, and so on and so forth, seem to fall for that fallacy. But that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, every time. Not to mention adopting a worldview which I would argue is philosophically untenable, once you examine its conceptual presuppositions carefully (but I won't do that here). Nor do I want to underemphasize the importance of being able to withdraw ever so deeply, as my previous post did describe. But, monklike people please beware. I never said you can't also engage, even while, paradoxically, your inner self is in some state of withdrawal. Withdrawal is lesson one. Then the subsequent lessons are to do with not losing the insights and the power of withdrawal while you add on involvement, and engagement, but you still stay in harmony, or in touch, with what's inner and higher.

I would emphasize that detachment really means two simultaneous things. It means a going into or looking into what you are experiencing in the everyday world, plus the going or looking outwards from the everyday situation which was described in my previous post. The latter, the withdrawal "outwards" or "dying in the present moment" part, is also, may I mention here, actually itself a looking into your truer or inner self (which of course is huge and, as I've explained in this thread, largely formless and even infinite and more, for those who've learnt how to consciously find it, at least a little).

Two arrows: one in, one out of the ordinary world. Both of them necessary. It's the combination of the two, withdrawal and involvement. Heaven brought down into Earth. That's what gives us the true benefits. That's what brings liberation. Those arrows are arrows of awareness, of higher consciousness. This is what it means to be awake. It may take a lot of words to describe what this involves, but it's very simple if you just do it, and keep on doing it. Using both the arrows gives us a broader view than just using either of the single arrows on its own.

Yes, we do go into the mud. But, admittedly, in a light way, with discretion, and only as far as is necessary for us to learn from. As J. Krishnamurti said, you certainly don’t need to go as far as becoming an alcoholic to understand that getting drunk is generally a bad thing.

This no doubt in theory sounds like a contradiction, but please do activate the two "arrows" together, and it should become clear that to do so works in practice, and is what true detachment is -- provided one confines the "involvement" part to only what is needed. And yes, reality is contradictory, even at its most sublime and supreme levels.

[TraineeHuman]

I used to have a spiritual teacher who claimed to believe in taking action first and asking questions later. He admired Julius Caesar's statement that it's much better to take action and make a thousand mistakes than to fail to act because one is trying to first determine what the best action might be. In my opinion my teacher could have profited from practising a greater degree of withdrawal. But he was reacting somewhat to the meditation traditions' emphasis on "detachment", which as I've admitted was and is very often apparently misinterpreted, by many practitioners and gurus and monks, as an emphasis just on withdrawal. To his credit, though, his partner did happen to tell me that he was unbelievably "detached", yet very present, when making love with her.

At some point in the 1970s, I happen to know that the two High Sheikhs of Sufism visited all the serious spiritual teachers here in Australia. (These were the High Sheikhs of the Naqshbandi sect. Officially this is the middle sect of Sufism, though it's an open secret that that sect is in fact behind the scenes the ruling sect of Sufism, and considers one of its roles to be that of accurately assessing all forms of spiritual practice on the planet. They dress very plainly, though.) They visited my teacher, whom they located "blind", purely by telepathy. I happen to know for a fact that my teacher was in turn being taught via telepathy several times a week by Muktananda, who was in India, and also by a Tibetan in Nepal.

The High Sheikhs camped in a tent in his living room for two weeks and telepathically scoured his mind and consciousness. At the end of the two weeks, they gave him their assessment of him. They said he was trying to "reach the other shore" by vigorously "wading through the mud". They assured him that this would never work in the end, and that eventually he would drown in the quicksand of negativity and attachment because there is no end to the mud, it is infinite. The only way to "the other shore" is to learn how to "fly across" all the mud, they said. So, he was doomed to eventual failure, they said, unless he changed his methods in favor of a considerably greater emphasis on the mastering of the withdrawal side of detachment. Events in his life ultimately seemed to confirm this warning, I'm sorry to say, because he stuck to his own lights (and, presumably, those of Muktananda and the Tibetan).

True detachment does also involve not being attached to anyone. Getting to that particular place is quite a ride, and a whole can of worms in itself, particularly when you consider that your body-consciousness, your playful "animal" side, doesn't understand this and absolutely needs companionship from others. It took me a very long time to get this particular issue largely into balance in my own life. If you're detached you'll (hopefully) still cultivate the companionship and the animal fun and warmth, but you'll also understand that any attachment causes suffering, always, and you'll act accordingly.

[Guish]

I used to have a spiritual teacher who claimed to believe in taking action first and asking questions later. He admired Julius Caesar's statement that it's much better to take action and make a thousand mistakes than to fail to act because one is trying to first determine what the best action might be. In my opinion my teacher could have profited from practising a greater degree of withdrawal. But he was reacting somewhat to the meditation traditions' emphasis on "detachment", which as I've admitted was and is very often apparently misinterpreted, by many practitioners and gurus and monks, as an emphasis just on withdrawal. To his credit, though, his partner did happen to tell me that he was unbelievably "detached", yet very present, when making love with her.

At some point in the 1970s, I happen to know that the two High Sheikhs of Sufism visited all the serious spiritual teachers here in Australia. (These were the High Sheikhs of the Naqshbandi sect. Officially this is the middle sect of Sufism, though it's an open secret that that sect is in fact behind the scenes the ruling sect of Sufism, and considers one of its roles to be that of accurately assessing all forms of spiritual practice on the planet. They dress very plainly, though.) They visited my teacher, whom they located "blind", purely by telepathy. I happen to know for a fact that my teacher was in turn being taught via telepathy several times a week by Muktananda, who was in India, and also by a Tibetan in Nepal.

The High Sheikhs camped in a tent in his living room for two weeks and telepathically scoured his mind and consciousness. At the end of the two weeks, they gave him their assessment of him. They said he was trying to "reach the other shore" by vigorously "wading through the mud". They assured him that this would never work in the end, and that eventually he would drown in the quicksand of negativity and attachment because there is no end to the mud, it is infinite. The only way to "the other shore" is to learn how to "fly across" all the mud, they said. So, he was doomed to eventual failure, they said, unless he changed his methods in favor of a considerably greater emphasis on the mastering of the withdrawal side of detachment. Events in his life ultimately seemed to confirm this warning, I'm sorry to say, because he stuck to his own lights (and, presumably, those of Muktananda and the Tibetan).

True detachment does also involve not being attached to anyone. Getting to that particular place is quite a ride, and a whole can of worms in itself, particularly when you consider that your body-consciousness, your playful "animal" side, doesn't understand this and absolutely needs companionship from others. It took me a very long time to get this particular issue largely into balance in my own life. If you're detached you'll (hopefully) still cultivate the companionship and the animal fun and warmth, but you'll also understand that any attachment causes suffering, always, and you'll act accordingly.

This has been on my mind during the last few years. The balance between the animal side and the potential higher mind is very important and different situations demand different reactions but there can be extreme involvement without any dark energy. As a house master, there's no one more aggressive than me on a football pitch. I'll openly play mind games with the other housemasters and I'd be very loud and passionate when we play. Only a win matters. This is supposed to be non-spiritual, one would say. However, after a game, I'd be back to my quiet self. What I have learned from life is giving all and forgetting all. Attachment kills love in the long run if not balanced. Forgiveness is needed at an initial stage. At a higher stage, an enlightened person would just do a harmonious action lovingly without trying to prove anything and wouldn't be affected by his/her surrounding. He/She wouldn't be a zombie but just someone who has realised impermanence completely. I always quote this story to support what I say.

Is That So?

The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbors as one living a pure life.

A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child.

This made her parents very angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin.

In great anger the parents went to the master. “Is that so?” was all he would say.

When the child was born, the parents brought it to the Hakuin, who now was viewed as a pariah by the whole village. They demanded that he take care of the child since it was his responsibility. “Is that so?” Hakuin said calmly as he accepted the child.

A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth – that the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fishmarket.

The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask his forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back again.

Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was: “Is that so?”

[TraineeHuman]

Enlightenment simply means that you permanently no longer ever feel that life is a problem, twenty-four hours a day. Plus you know for certain that that is how you feel: you know that you know. And you permanently know that it's all good, that simply to be alive is good. That's all. Isn't that so, Guish?

If you get aggressive during a school sports match, so what? Only if suddenly now there's a problem for you about being that way, only if it spoils your non-stop enjoyment of the fact that you're alive, only if you focus on the trouble instead of on your inner light and joy, only then is there any issue whatsoever.

[Zampano]

Enlightenment simply means that you permanently no longer ever feel that life is a problem, twenty-four hours a day. Plus you know for certain that that is how you feel: you know that you know. And you permanently know that it's all good, that simply to be alive is good. That's all.

I agree completely. Life with all its ups and downs, being with the flow of life-but untouched somehow.
The road to this conclusion or "way of life" can be bumpy, but its all worth it, as long as stay commited to find this truth for yourself.
No teacher or guru can give you this conclusion...you have to find it out for yourself. Then the real and limitless life starts.
In the last months I read lots of the classical philosophers from the 17th to 19th century (Kant, Spinoza, Leibniz, Kierkegaard,...) with my brother, who studied Philosophy.
And well, when read with the right eyes so to say, they point to the same.
Pointers everywhere, but the work has to be done by the individual.

Things are happening, everything is moving-thats the only constant there is. But what you are is always untouched...deepening into this state of being happens.
If there is no movement, there is no progress.

[TraineeHuman]

To talk about one area of ups and downs, Zampano, if I may, several years ago I received a total of no less than six separate PMs, all from male members, enquiring about the soulmate phenomenon. I suppose the members were enquiring about this since a soulmate, being a close past-lives connection, would presumably be recognized in this lifetime (and certainly in the period between lifetimes) via the Higher Mind somehow. I think the members probably wanted to know if there was some kind of clear sign from the Higher Mind, such as some kind of light or energy or inner voice or unmistakeable OB energetic interaction, that very clearly identifies that the person in front of you is a soulmate. Or even kind of like in the movies, just perhaps? You know, maybe astral firecrackers going off or mental rockets getting launched or at least animals suddenly being able to talk at some astral or telepathic level? Not to mention clocks showing "111" or "222" (or "666"?) everywhere (which they'll surely do, won't they, if you keep an eye out for that long enough)? Or, these members wanted to know how one might make use of or communicate with the Higher Mind directly to at least facilitate such a relationship getting off to a great start. Though as you say, Zampano, we need to do it all ourselves, we all need to put in, and in the end there are no shortcuts.

At that time I replied that I didn't have much knowledge of the soulmate phenomenon. However, on reflection I've more recently realized I do have quite significant experience of a number of examples of this phenomenon in relation to myself. So here goes, better late than never. In particular, though, with regard to one such potential romantic connection (many years ago), I managed to miss out on having a romance or even a friendship with that individual, for reasons I'll explain further below. This was true even though she had approached me out of the blue and told me we had very high personality compatibility (which I much later realized we certainly did, though I stupidly denied it at the time, for reasons I'll also explain).

I would also point out that most of your past-life connections won't be potential romantic partners. Normally they'll include your parents and siblings and other relatives, and particularly your mother, and probably your very closest friends of the same gender (if you're not gay).

Firstly, let me say I now know of several ways to recognize a past-life connection. One -- the most reliable, in my experience -- is that one instantly feels totally comfortable and totally undefensive in the other's presence, and totally trusting of them, and totally free just to be oneself. Pretty "total" all round, I guess, which admittedly does reference the Higher Mind or even the Superconsciousness. (Or, instead, one is almost explosively conflictual with the individual yet strangely drawn to such a conflict.)

A second way to recognize a romantic connection with such an individual is via astrology. The combined chart for yourself and the other individual will probably show a relative lack or near-lack of conflict aspects (squares, oppositions or pentiles, and afflictions) and unusually many (at least several) major harmonious aspects (trines, sextiles or conjunctions). Plus probably a sexual compatibility aspect (primarily, one person's Mars in trine or sextile to the other's Venus) or else a true-love connection such as Neptune conjunction or trine the partner's Sun, in the case of a romantic connection. The lack, or near-lack, of conflict will reflect the fact that the two individuals have devoted, and I do mean devoted, a number of lifetimes (and time between lives) to resolving the psychological issues which had caused them conflict or a lack of personality alignment between them. They've literally changed who they were, even though that's painful to do, in order to adapt to the needs of the other. Typically the individuals will have been married to each other in the past, and/or in parent-child relationships, and/or siblings, and/or business partners etc., if not all of the above over various lifetimes.

Life in this physical world is very tough anyway (unless you can find the way to transcend suffering, which does always involve first going through great suffering anyway). Romantic relationships will unavoidably have rocky times because such a relationship involves two individualities trying to continually act like they're harmoniously one. I can therefore understand how it's very sensible and practical to try and find a romantic partner with whom one has already ironed out most of the disharmonies in prior lifetimes. That's not a panacea, though. When I was an adolescent the weekly super-popular Disney program on TV on Sunday evenings would always include part of the song about "Some day my prince will come ..." This clearly guaranteed to every young female that somewhere out there there was a young shining white knight just waiting for the right moment to boldly ride into her life and magically bring her happiness on a plate. The truth is, of course, that only you alone can bring yourself happiness. And that no relationship can bring you happiness, but if you have found some happiness then you can bring that into a relationship and the sharing will celebrate it and augment it -- but never will the relationship actually be the origin or the cause. But then, too, conflict is precisely the thing that mars a romantic relationship. So, even if you have found some freedom from unhappiness, you won't be able to share it effectively even in a marriage/etc unless you have extremely high over all compatibility, plus few areas of low compatibility, with your partner. And your own inner conflicts, they're your own problem to solve.

If you haven't learnt yet how to be free of ever feeling loneliness any more, you can be lonely in a crowd and you can be lonely in a marriage. Conflict is what brings tbat, and it's what kills off affection and turns it into attachment the quickest, and strips away the protection that comes from harmony. Who has the time for that in the center of their home, honestly?

Two last things. Firstly, I promised to explain how I managed to miss out on having a romantic relationship with a certain very closely past-life-connected lady. At the time I met this lady, and then until a year afterwards, I was involved in a very intense relationship with someone else, with whom I had only some past-life connection. However, that relationship did involve some very high personality compatibility. That made it something mind-blowingly beautiful and special, because both she and I could go into realms of extraordinary sensitivity and subtlety together. I had experienced something like this before, nonphysically though, with some nature-spirits, but nothing like this with human women. Unfortunately, there were also areas of substantial incompatibility. These created conflicts, which over time turned into attachments, and eventually became destructive to the bliss -- even though we never ever directly quarreled (that would have been way too unsubtle) and somehow always maintained an extraordinary type of independence.

When that relationship finally ended, I was somewhat traumatized, shattered, even though it hadn't been a destructive relationship at any stage. I was simply stunned at the fact that it had had to end. I was rather like someone in mourning. At the time I didn't realize I was in such a state. The lady who was the potential soulmate approached me at this time. The last thing I could handle right then was another very intense romantic relationship. Subconsciously I knew this, and as a result I somehow managed to reject her at that time. Although several months later I started to allow myself to become aware of my attraction to her, at the time it so happened I moved to another city, unfortunately.

The other thing I wanted to say is that the great majority of individuals would have trouble consciously communicating accurately with someone else at a super-physical level. (I learnt this when, early in this thread, I tried to visit some members astrally, but they weren't capable of recognizing it was me at all.) Because of this I suggest it's better to rely on physical-world clues as to who might be a potential soulmate. But do please "listen" in calmness and quietness.

[Zampano]

In my experience the people who showed up as so called "soulmates", come for a short time and give you a lesson or another hint. Then they disappear.
But when the mind is more still, its easier to hear advice given from "the flow", when you ask for it. Anything other is resistance and can result ultimately in psychological problems/illnesses.
Family, close friends stay. Normal day interactions.

Then "miracles" are happening. It is one distinctive impuls/thought that makes you go somewhere or call a person or behave out of the ordinary or what you have planned.
Nobody has to ask anything-its all here. Instead of giving some advice, ask people what they think about it and they will come to a conclusion. It is their way to figure the whole thing out. Psychotheraphy or maybe a person you meet drunk at the club or also on a forum :-). Strangers.
You can provide a listening space for them.
If somebody shows up from a past life, live through this experience.
For example...Happened to me some years ago in Italy, when I met a girl and I had the sudden thought....we know each other from a past life. At that time I wasnt so much into that, but it came out of my mouth without thinking. Of course, she was overwhelmed with that statement.
I like the idea of resonance...

[Zampano]

About the past life thing, I am not so sure. I did some past life regression and I saw this and that.
Maybe the frequences matched at that time in my life...that I attracted a matching life or a life-illusion that would benefit at that specific moment.



But do please "listen" in calmness and quietness.

Even if it does not make sense at all.

[TraineeHuman]

My own memories from past lifetimes don't come from some kind of hypnotic regression. They're just memories. That makes me a freak, I guess. But that also tends to give such memories almost equal status with memories from my current life. Admittedly, for a long time I wasn't completely sure whether I had any past human lives because maybe all the past-life memories were just imprints. But even if they were imprints, they were always the memories of someone whose life I'd "adopted" as my own.

I prefer to follow Sherlock Holmes' principle that once you've eliminated the other possibilities, whatever's left, however unlikely it may seem, must be the truth. Why else do some people -- including myself -- instantly on first meeting feel, with certain very rare individuals, that we totally trust and feel totally comfortable with this stranger -- and I emphasize instantly? Assuming we're not quite insane, isn't it more plausible to conclude that we must be feeling that way because we already know them from the past somehow, and we know them so well that it would actually be rational for us to trust them with our lives and our deepest secrets and so on with them?

Then there's the phenomenon of choosing your current parents during the inter-life period prior to your current birth. Quite a few people seem to at least remember that they did that. I claim to have a sufficiently clear memory of that that I know my choice was made just on the basis of watching a kind of movie of each set of prospective parents and siblings. How could I have chosen well based on so little information? Maybe it was just a kind of lottery, you may say, but I find that to be the less plausible explanation. That would be like getting married after the first date. And at that point I then made telepathic contact with the members of my chosen prospective family and got the agreement of each of them to have me in their family. When I did, why did they all act like they already knew me well from somewhere, and pondered and gave me their judgment that they could handle living with me, all things considered -- even if they subsequently wouldn't have consciously remembered doing so (except in the case of my mother, who was super-clairvoyant and thought it was totally normal to communicate with dead people and so on)?

[Guish]

The soulmate phenomenon confuses me. Since we change everyday and at every moment, how can there be someone for a person in a given life? It's possible only if someone clings to a certain belief system all his/her life. As we change, people in our environment change and different people get attracted to us.

[animovado]

Since we change everyday and at every moment, how can there be someone for a person in a given life?

Despite the fact that every day and moment are changing, they fit to us, nevertheless, in any given moment. To share the life with a soulmate over a longer timespan can feel like an exceptional commitment. Maybe these soulmates we're sharing our life with have a similar rhythm and willingness to create a freedom for growth. To dance together for a while. For a moment or a lifetime, it depends...

[TraineeHuman]

At some level the spiritually aware individual loves everything and everyone, and has at least a vague sense that they do. Why then single out one, or perhaps a few, individuals?

I suggest the main reason we (perhaps unconsciously) prefer to have a soulmate is because we have a sex instinct that is part of us and that we have to live with. And given that, we have no choice but to seek to transform it by the most effective means possible from the animal or human into something ultimately spiritual and even Divine. And having a soulmate efficiently elevates not just the body but the mind as well.

[6pounder]

Traineehuman, could you give some basic (or not so basic) guidelines on how one should meditate please?

Is it have to be in a lotus position? Or can I just lay on my back?

[Highwhistler]

.
Experiencing Emptiness

Just as a person who loves a song, can sing the song inside herself when she is sitting, walking, laying down, eating, working, playing -- nearly anytime and anywhere -- so can a person who loves emptiness, have emptiness be in her awareness, nearly anytime and anywhere.

Just as a person who loves a song, can instantly begin singing the song inside herself without any delay, so can a person who loves emptiness, have emptiness be in her awareness instantly, nearly anytime and anywhere.

For one who has fallen into true love with emptiness ... the length of time that passes between normal daily awareness, to the awareness of emptiness, is far less than the blink of an eye.

And so when she begins a meditation session, a true lover of inner silence enjoys complete concentration on emptiness, instantaneously. All of the normal thoughts are gone from the sphere of her awareness. The only thing she's interested in, is emptiness. And, she can be with emptiness, and be dissolved into it, indefinitely. The most significant aspects of her being, that allows for such complete and thorough concentration, is her love and fascination for emptiness.

Some people who have a life-long love for music and become devoted to it ... their love naturally leads them into researching the ecosystem of music -- the instruments, the sound rooms, the musicians, the notes, beats, tones, cadence, song writing, the recording instruments, the practice sessions, and so on -- all of which gives them greater insight, appreciation for, and more direct experiences of their true love: music.

And so it is with some people who have an enduring love for emptiness and become devoted to it ... their love naturally leads them into researching the ecosystem that emptiness is part of -- the awareness, the attention, consciousness, silence, tranquility, concentration, ultra-subtle pulsations, psychic states of being, timelessness, psychic content related to emptiness, impermanence, the senses, first-hand experience of emptiness, and so on -- all of which gives them greater insight, appreciation for, and more direct experiences of their true love: emptiness.

In meditation, as she focuses on emptiness -- she floats with it, it is her -- she identifies with it. While floating as emptiness itself, she occasionally becomes aware of the tiniest pulsations that wave across the surface of emptiness. She can study these for hours, without loosing sight of her true love -- emptiness.

For a lover of emptiness, it is of little value to simply recall the experiences of emptiness from memory. Reading about emptiness in books, on web pages, or hearing about it from second and third hand sources, is of less value. The only significant experience of emptiness to the meditating lover of emptiness, is the ongoing experience of it -- here and now.

The experience of emptiness happens within, and is part of, our living psychic ecosystem. It turns out that emptiness is the host for the very pulse of life and the consciousness that expresses all of Creation. Emptiness is the foundation of conscious experience, but it forever remains completely unattached from the rising and disappearing of consciousness that plays upon it.

[TraineeHuman]

I agree that experiencing the emptiness is very much the essence of "advanced" meditation. It may be emptiness but it's infinite emptiness, and anything but boring.

You could say it's also at the same time a fullness, actually, but a filling up of and swallowing up of everything with and into pure, vibrant, super-alive emptiness.

I've nearly always preferred to meditate with my eyes half-open, though quite often with them out of focus as well. In this way it's easier to still at least partly retain visual contact with the physical world even as one experiences emptiness absolutely everywhere.

In my experience, many seem to initially experience quite strong pressure in the head (third eye) when they initially go into the emptiness. It's important for such individuals to stay with the experience of such pressure rather than seek to escape it or avoid it, and then it will go away soon enough anyway.

I think that for a beginner at meditation, learning to practise total calmness, not only during meditation but in life situations (particularly the tough ones), would be one way of getting a better "grip" (for lack of a better word) on what emptiness is like.

I guess a beginner at meditation might do well to practise sitting with their back straight initially, because that's the most "calm" position for the body other than lying down, and for lying down and relaxing there's the danger of falling asleep too easily.

And 6pouinder, here's a link to post #1757 regarding how to meditate: http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?52121-The-Higher-Self-and-transcendent-experience-including-OBEs&p=867948&viewfull=1#post867948

[Guish]

At some level the spiritually aware individual loves everything and everyone, and has at least a vague sense that they do. Why then single out one, or perhaps a few, individuals?

I suggest the main reason we (perhaps unconsciously) prefer to have a soulmate is because we have a sex instinct that is part of us and that we have to live with. And given that, we have no choice but to seek to transform it by the most effective means possible from the animal or human into something ultimately spiritual and even Divine. And having a soulmate efficiently elevates not just the body but the mind as well.


As we tend towards equanimity, the urge/instinct becomes weak as well because we tend to be happy with what we have and make the most of the current moment. If someone asks me what you'd love in a woman, I'd be speechless. I never had an answer for such things since a child as I don't search for things. Things come to us as long as we do the inner work.

[Guish]

"The most significant aspects of her being, that allows for such complete and thorough concentration, is her love and fascination for emptiness."

This is very dangerous. If one is fascinated by something, it's already a bad start to meditation and it can cause attachment to emptiness or bliss. Meditation is about staying still no matter what happens and this helps us to develop equanimity in our actions in the Physical world. It's perhaps my Zen background that make me have such an approach. I read an advert today about a big gathering where transcendental meditation will be taught to relieve people from stress. I get the impression that people are being taught the wrong thing.

[Finefeather]

I suggest the main reason we (perhaps unconsciously) prefer to have a soulmate is because we have a sex instinct that is part of us and that we have to live with. And given that, we have no choice but to seek to transform it by the most effective means possible from the animal or human into something ultimately spiritual and even Divine. And having a soulmate efficiently elevates not just the body but the mind as well.
Great way of putting it ... thanks.
We should not forget that the sacral chakra is primarily there for the function of perpetuation of the races... in more advanced beings this energy transmutes up into the throat chakra which manifests in the creation and expression of art... beauty and higher ideology.


If someone asks me what you'd love in a woman, I'd be speechless.
I am also speechless :)
Surely you can see clearly the part woman play in the scheme? If it was not for a woman you would not even be here wondering what to love in a woman.
Your statement is actually quite chauvinistic against women... you're lucky my daughter is not on this forum :)

[Finefeather]

Traineehuman, could you give some basic (or not so basic) guidelines on how one should meditate please?

Is it have to be in a lotus position? Or can I just lay on my back?
Stand on your head if you like... but I'd recommend a pillow because it gets a bit uncomfortable :)

The lotus position is only comfortable if your legs are subtle and thin because most of the Indians have this body feature... in the west those who have very muscular or fat legs will hardly be able to twist themselves into this position.

In many western zendos people bring a low stool along... the main thing is comfort.

If you lay on your back you might fall asleep...

I meditate in cars, buses and trains... anywhere I have time to pass.

[Finefeather]

This is very dangerous. If one is fascinated by something, it's already a bad start to meditation and it can cause attachment to emptiness or bliss. Meditation is about staying still no matter what happens and this helps us to develop equanimity in our actions in the Physical world.

Guish… sorry brother but I do not agree with this…

Fascination could very well be passion for some idea or subject.
We often hear statements like...”he has a lifelong fascination with science”
What someone may be fascinated about may very well be the very subject of his/her meditation… because I disagree that meditation is ONLY about being still as the Indian philosophies claim.

It is my experience that meditation is about… control of consciousness… which leads to focus of consciousness… which leads to intense analyses… which results in some form of enlightenment to do with the subject of focus.


Prolonged concentration on something particular is called meditation. Anyone who is
absorbed in some creative activity “heart and soul”, meditates unwittingly. The businessman
who just thinks about business; the artist who just sees forms, colours, and lights; the actor
who lives his part; the philosopher who analyses his problems; all of them are good examples
of various ways of concentration and meditation.
Contemplation (absorption) ensues when consciousness is lost in, identifies with the
object. Anyone who has not experienced this will not understand it.
Concentration is another word for attention, meditation for methodical and systematic
thinking. The chess-player is a good example of the man practising concentration and
meditation.

I would encourage everyone to read the above pdf… you don't even have to agree with it.

http://www.laurency.com/L1e/kl1_1.pdf


If you meditate about nothing you get nothing… except maybe some fancy light show or even interference from astral. If you leave your door wide open something someday will enter it.

It is my experience also that detachment... as you have been stressing in another thread...can very easily become nonchalance which many people see as arrogance.

It's ok and useful to be calm and relaxed and not worried about those things which we are tying to avoid or overcome in our lives... but we first need to analyse these experiences by meditation.

Maybe if you meditated about the importance of women in the world you might have seen their beauty and contribution more easily.. :)

Take care

[Finefeather]

Have a great new year in 2016... for those who are into that...

Unconditional love is still the only way to celebrate life...

And thank you TH for your quest to enlighten the weary... the two of us are not always in sync... but we should not let our differences get in the way of our hearts.

Love you all... I'm off for today...
Ray

[ulli]

[QUOTE=Guish;1033551
This is very dangerous. If one is fascinated by something, it's already a bad start to meditation and it can cause attachment to emptiness or bliss. Meditation is about staying still no matter what happens and this helps us to develop equanimity in our actions in the Physical world.

Guish… sorry brother but I do not agree with this…

Fascination could very well be passion for some idea or subject.
We often hear statements like...”he has a lifelong fascination with science”
What someone may be fascinated about may very well be the very subject of his/her meditation… because I disagree that meditation is ONLY about being still as the Indian philosophies claim.

It is my experience that meditation is about… control of consciousness… which leads to focus of consciousness… which leads to intense analyses… which results in some form of enlightenment to do with the subject of focus.


Prolonged concentration on something particular is called meditation. Anyone who is
absorbed in some creative activity “heart and soul”, meditates unwittingly. The businessman
who just thinks about business; the artist who just sees forms, colours, and lights; the actor
who lives his part; the philosopher who analyses his problems; all of them are good examples
of various ways of concentration and meditation.
Contemplation (absorption) ensues when consciousness is lost in, identifies with the
object. Anyone who has not experienced this will not understand it.
Concentration is another word for attention, meditation for methodical and systematic
thinking. The chess-player is a good example of the man practising concentration and
meditation.

I would encourage everyone to read the above pdf… you don't even have to agree with it.

http://www.laurency.com/L1e/kl1_1.pdf


If you meditate about nothing you get nothing… except maybe some fancy light show or even interference from astral. If you leave your door wide open something someday will enter it.

It is my experience also that detachment... as you have been stressing in another thread...can very easily become nonchalance which many people see as arrogance.

It's ok and useful to be calm and relaxed and not worried about those things which we are tying to avoid or overcome in our lives... but we first need to analyse these experiences by meditation.

Maybe if you meditated about the importance of women in the world you might have seen their beauty and contribution more easily.. :)

Take care[/QUOTE]

I've always had similar ideas about meditation, having tried various forms.
Deep meditation where no thoughts destroy serenity is very precious though,
as is is so totally relaxing and beneficial to health.

But I also bellieve that there is a need for shielding the self, as one can be vulnerable to influences and beings entering that are bent on destroying one's relationships and family life.

Sure, those events may have beneficial results, too, as they may speed up one's spiritual progress, for anyone who wants to turn all negative into positive.

But what about the fabric of family life then?
Or is the ideal for everyone to become cloistered monks or nuns?
I doubt it.

The highest calling is to find one's gifts with which to serve humanity as a whole.

[Flash]

I suggest the main reason we (perhaps unconsciously) prefer to have a soulmate is because we have a sex instinct that is part of us and that we have to live with. And given that, we have no choice but to seek to transform it by the most effective means possible from the animal or human into something ultimately spiritual and even Divine. And having a soulmate efficiently elevates not just the body but the mind as well.
Great way of putting it ... thanks.
We should not forget that the sacral chakra is primarily there for the function of perpetuation of the races... in more advanced beings this energy transmutes up into the throat chakra which manifests in the creation and expression of art... beauty and higher ideology.


If someone asks me what you'd love in a woman, I'd be speechless.
I am also speechless :)
Surely you can see clearly the part woman play in the scheme? If it was not for a woman you would not even be here wondering what to love in a woman.
Your statement is actually quite chauvinistic against women... you're lucky my daughter is not on this forum :)

I do not understand the chauvinism in Guish statement, I took it as "speechless" meaning so much beauty and high consideration that he would remain in awe, speechless, he could not name the "unnamemable"..

Am I wrong or right Guish?

If I am wrong, then allow me to replace Finefeather's daughter and whip your ass and your heart with a love wand, and it buuuuurrrnnnnsss....
If I am right in my perception of what you wrote, thank you, but take us to our real measure.

To tell the truth, once I had given birth, I was in admiration towards women strenght and courage. And as I raised a child, I became in true awe towards all women doing a great heartfilled job with their children, and they are a majority.

I am very happy that we are incarnating in turn in women and men bodies it seems. Because my male counterparts, who did not understand much of the amplitude of true service mothers provide, will have a chance to experience it. And hopefully, when incarnating in a male body, I will remember and support.

Thanks Ulli, Finefeather, Guish, TraineeHuman, and all others here for giving us your ways of meditation practices, it helps me.

I had difficulties in meditating until i recognize that some type of bodies and personnalities have a more difficult time meditating. What would take days to learn for some would take years for me. Soooo discouraging... Then I understood that when i am truly concentrating on something, it was a form of meditation - lolllll - I had done that most of my life - sometimes in the action. I just had to add the intent to it, the light intent, the love intent, whatever was needed. Lately, late in life, I am getting better at plainly meditating.

[Finefeather]

If someone asks me what you'd love in a woman, I'd be speechless.
I am also speechless :)
Surely you can see clearly the part woman play in the scheme? If it was not for a woman you would not even be here wondering what to love in a woman.
Your statement is actually quite chauvinistic against women... you're lucky my daughter is not on this forum :)

I do not understand the chauvinism in Guish statement, I took it as "speechless" meaning so much beauty and high consideration that he would remain in awe, speechless, he could not name the "unnamemable"..

Get off your high horse there girl!… I was'nt meaning that you girls are that good !

Only joking :)

I should have quoted the whole thing which is:


At some level the spiritually aware individual loves everything and everyone, and has at least a vague sense that they do. Why then single out one, or perhaps a few, individuals?

I suggest the main reason we (perhaps unconsciously) prefer to have a soulmate is because we have a sex instinct that is part of us and that we have to live with. And given that, we have no choice but to seek to transform it by the most effective means possible from the animal or human into something ultimately spiritual and even Divine. And having a soulmate efficiently elevates not just the body but the mind as well.
As we tend towards equanimity, the urge/instinct becomes weak as well because we tend to be happy with what we have and make the most of the current moment. If someone asks me what you'd love in a woman, I'd be speechless. I never had an answer for such things since a child as I don't search for things. Things come to us as long as we do the inner work.
In this conversation I understood it as a reply to soulmates etc…. And to say what is quoted above by Guish is to me a kind of opting out of the human race and it's facts.

Male and female are human requirements and humanity cannot exist without both genders. To say that he is speechless about what he would love in a woman… and then continue by saying that he never had an answer to this since a child is to me a gross blindness of the role woman play in life.

The fact that we can be male in one life and female in another does not take from the fact that we are all part of the continuation of humanity...

Maybe Guish should ask himself then “what is there to love in a 'soul?”

The idea that he is possibly trying to put forward is that as we become more advanced we see less of gender… this is not the case… because it is known that advanced beings do not see sex in the narrow light that most humans do. They know that the sacral energies can steer the week willed to a life of sexual dependence… and even the cause of rapes and other sexual deviousness… but when we take control of that energy and transmute it to the throat chakra… the white magic begins.
This is so significant that esoterics has a special word for it… “sublimation”

The sacral energy is also what many gurus or philosophers wrongly call Kundalini...

[greybeard]

With respect Ray I had a profound Kundalini awakening and had never heard of Kundalini or its significance.
Sidhis came with this.
When your body starts to gyrate while sitting meditating and having stopped it, it gyrates in the opposite direction--in large sweeps---then something unusual is happening. The energy has moved up the spine bit by bit over the years.
I only found out later what it was.
This was a very personal on going event--not influenced by prior knowledge.
Here is a link to the preface of a book on the subject.
there is a lot of information on this

With love
Chris

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/kundalini-liberating-force-discourses-questions-and-answers-and-views-IDK142/

[Finefeather]

With respect Ray I had a profound Kundalini awakening and had never heard of Kundalini or its significance.
Sidhids came with this.
When your body starts to gyrate while sitting meditating and having stopped it, it gyrates in the opposite direction--in large sweeps---then something unusual is happening. The energy has moved up the spine bit by bit over the years.
I only found out later what it was.
This was a very personal on going event--not influenced by prior knowledge.
Here is a link to the preface of a book on the subject.
there is a lot of information on this

Chris I don't need a link but thank you all the same.

Many people have had what you call a profound Kundalini awakening including all manner of physical phenomena… but this is not a Kundalini awakening.

Then you go further and say that Sidhids came with this?

There is no such thing… it is Siddhis… which is Hindu meaning...complete understanding or enlightenment. And a Siddha is “one who is accomplished” or a perfected master or an ascetic who has achieved enlightenment...or paranormal capabilities.

Does that sound like you in your mind Chris ?

I have no doubt that you might have had some strange experience in your life… many do… so have I… but the fact that you do not give out this accomplished enlightenment… but only quote text from all sorts of gurus and supposed enlightened beings… does not give me the impression that you even came close to a real Kundalini awakening.

Did you know that only Causal Beings have Kundalini rising from the Base chakra through the central etheric channel to the crown in a controlled way?

Did you know that you can have a similar experience when the sacral energies snap through into the head? Ask the Tantra experts.

Did you know that you could have a similar experience when unwanted entities are forced out of the body after alcohol abuse or drug abuse?

Did you know that kundalini is an effect of causal consciousness not the cause of of it... or the cause of some sudden enlightenment?

But I have no problem with you believing what you want to believe… it always helps to keep the ego shiny.

Love you brother
Ray

[Guish]

I suggest the main reason we (perhaps unconsciously) prefer to have a soulmate is because we have a sex instinct that is part of us and that we have to live with. And given that, we have no choice but to seek to transform it by the most effective means possible from the animal or human into something ultimately spiritual and even Divine. And having a soulmate efficiently elevates not just the body but the mind as well.
Great way of putting it ... thanks.
We should not forget that the sacral chakra is primarily there for the function of perpetuation of the races... in more advanced beings this energy transmutes up into the throat chakra which manifests in the creation and expression of art... beauty and higher ideology.


If someone asks me what you'd love in a woman, I'd be speechless.
I am also speechless :)
Surely you can see clearly the part woman play in the scheme? If it was not for a woman you would not even be here wondering what to love in a woman.
Your statement is actually quite chauvinistic against women... you're lucky my daughter is not on this forum :)

I said that I'd be speechless because I do not look for qualities in people and do not judge. People show qualities when you stop judging them. I'm surprised how this discussion went out of hand. I thought people knew me better here. I personally worked with two ladies who did everything to make themselves known in the workplace. They went as far as backstabbing and lie to dominate the surrounding. I always helped them selflessly because this is the way without judging. They ended up asking me advice about many personal things and trusted me blindly. That's how the world works. I operate with detachment and compassion. I don't work on these traits. These are natural traits which everyone has.

[greybeard]

Im dyslexic Ray spell check does not do that word Siddhis which I pasted from your comments.
You seem reluctant to go to links which might contradict your belief.
small extract from that link

"To awaken Kundalini Shakti, the safest way is to receive the grace of a blessed Siddha-Guru, who have already merged his identity with the Supreme consciousness, the Shiva, and have become one. When Kundalini Shakti gets active by a Siddha-Guru it automatically starts functioning. Kundalini becomes the master of jiva, whose goal is Shiva, the source of existence."

I was advised to go to that guru (who wrote the book) which I did and he confirmed Kundalini awakened and gave Shaktipat so that the continuing awakening would be controlled/safe.

Several people experienced healing in my presence--it was not intended or looked for but the energy came out of my side into the other.
I had no prior knowledge that one was awaiting major surgery which was no longer necessary--- She was a staff nurse and did not know anything about me. We met at my Aunt's funeral and that's where that happened --she told me later she was aware of a sudden surge of energy coming into her and realised that the source was me. We were sitting together. When she went for the pre opp check the consultant could find no trace of the injury.
I dont claim to do anything.

I am not enlightened.

So there you go.

Love Chris

[Finefeather]

You seem reluctant to go to links which might contradict your belief.
I am not reluctant Chris I have been there before... in this life and a previous one and funny you should say that because you do the same with me… and I know you have not been where I have given you a link to… hey?..:)

Why should I go to a link where I know that the whole thing is fiction.

I have studied your belief for years and I have moved on from it... none of it will ever contradict my belief... because I do not have a belief system... what you have to do is stop thinking that you are going to change me with links and quotes... It's just not going to happen

You Chris were the one who decided to comment on my post... I never ever said anything in that post like... "and Chris, if you're out there and listening... this is for you brother" :)

Just accept that we think different... the reason I have never posted one post on your thread is because I think it is fiction... but I have not ever gone on there and tried to disrupt your sermon.



small extract from that link
"To awaken Kundalini Shakti, the safest way is to receive the grace of a blessed Siddha-Guru, who have already merged his identity with the Supreme consciousness, the Shiva, and have become one. When Kundalini Shakti gets active by a Siddha-Guru it automatically starts functioning. Kundalini becomes the master of jiva, whose goal is Shiva, the source of existence."
I was advised to go to that guru (who wrote the book) which I did and he confirmed Kundalini awakened and gave Shaktipat so that the continuing awakening would be controlled/safe.

It is clear to me from what this 'guru' wrote that he has no idea what reality is… never mind Kundalini.

We do not merge our identity with anyone let alone with the supreme consciousness, he calls Shiva… because Shiva is actually the energy aspect of the trinity… Shiva a a mythological god the same as Brahma and Vishnu, the other 2 aspects of the Hindu trinity… which corresponds to the Christian trinity which is Father, Son and Holy Ghost… the same as others who talk of Body, Soul and Spirit… which is in reality Matter, Consciousness and Energy.

If I can find such an error in this guru's book in one paragraph then I can imagine what other fiction he has written.

I would not go to this 'guru' if he paid me :) How much did he charge you?:)

I am not enlightened.
Then you have not had a Kundalini awakening… because where in the world has it gone to now my friend?

Love you brother
Ray

[Finefeather]

I said that I'd be speechless because I do not look for qualities in people and do not judge. People show qualities when you stop judging them. I'm surprised how this discussion went out of hand. I thought people knew me better here. I personally worked with two ladies who did everything to make themselves known in the workplace. They went as far as backstabbing and lie to dominate the surrounding. I always helped them selflessly because this is the way without judging. They ended up asking me advice about many personal things and trusted me blindly. That's how the world works. I operate with detachment and compassion. I don't work on these traits. These are natural traits which everyone has.
Actually you did not come close to saying that at all... in my mind.... the first time... but your second go at it is much clearer.

We could debate the judgement bit of your statement because you were talking about women and soulmates etc and it is not been judgemental to say some facts about women as a species... like their ability to have children and the part they play in humanity.

If my English is failing me please educate me... I love been educated :)

Take care and have a great 2016
Love you brother
Ray

[greybeard]

In fairness to the late Dr Goels I have posted the entire preface Ray
In addition I meant Kundalini awakened I did not claim that I awakened
I was not charged other than a minimal amount for food and electricity In the six weeks I spent on the Ashram.

Further it is all levels---ultimately there is no person to awaken.

"Events happen
Deeds are done
There is no doer there of"

Jesus said "Even the wisest of my disciple will enter by faith alone"

I have forgotten most of what I learned about energy body’s chakras etc
I had to know this in order to become a bio-energy therapist years ago.

Preface

Salutations to the Mother Kundalini the Divine Cosmic Energy! You are present in every existing being. You are the supreme knowledge, maya, intellect, memory and delusion. O Devi! You are the mind, the sky, the air, the fire, the water and the earth. Nothing is outside You. You are the Shakti of Shiva. Your Own blissful conscious form gives the shape of the world.

Kundalini Yoga is the most archaic form of spiritual sadhana practiced by Indian sages and saints to achieve Oneness with the Supreme Reality. Kundalini, the serpent power or mystic fire, is the primordial energy that lies sleeping or in dormant state at the base of the spinal column in all human beings. It is also the cosmic power in individual bodies. It is the spiritual potential of cosmic power. It has no form. But the mind has to follow a particular form in its initial stage. From this grosss form, one can easily understand the subtle formless Kundalini. Prana, ahamkar, buddhi, indriya, mind, nerves and all the five gross elements are all products of Kundalini.

Kundalini becomes active, when it is awakened. There are many methods to awaken the sleeping Kundalini, like Pranayama, Asanas, Meditation, etc. all such methods may sometimes lead to complications. One may also become a psychic patient. It can also prove fatal as one feels the urge to attempt suicide without any reason.

To awaken Kundalini Shakti, the safest way is to receive the grace of a blessed Siddha-Guru, who have already merged his identity with the Supreme consciousness, the Shiva, and have become one. When Kundalini Shakti gets active by a Siddha-Guru it automatically starts functioning. Kundalini becomes the master of jiva, whose goal is Shiva, the source of existence.

In this world, despite all that we achieve, we never feel contented and never attain permanent peace, happiness or bliss. Complete fulfillment is only possible when we realize our own self, when the Kundalini Shakti gets aroused in our bodies and the backward journey towards Shiva gets initiated, till one day, with the mercy of Kundalini, the jiva gets liberated from all the attachments with the world.

As this Kundalini Shakti is very powerful, no one else other than Shiva can control this Kundalini Shakti, when it is awakened. Under the guidance of a Guru, the movement of the Kundalini is controlled, the six spiritual centres get slowly pierced, the nervous system gets cleansed and the individual becomes transformed completely. He realizes his own Self at the sahasrara, the seventh spiritual centre and becomes One with the Supreme Consciousness, the Shiva. The main principle is that when awakened, Kundalini Shakti ceases to be a static power, which sustains world consciousness. Once set in movement, she is drawn to its other static centre in the thousand petalled lotus (sahasrara), by merging Herself and the jiva with Shiva consciousness or the consciousness of eternal ecstasy beyond the world of form. When Kundalini sleeps a man is awake to the world, when she wakes up, he sleeps, that is, he loses his consciousness of the world and enters his causal body. In this Yoga he passes beyond to the formless consciousness.

This is the glory of Mother Kundalini who through Her infinite grace and power gently leads the sadhaka from charka to charka and illumines his intellect and makes him realize his identity with the supreme Brahman!

Sadgurunath Shri Siddeshwar Baba was a God-realised Siddha-Guru. Thousands of seekers got their Kundalini Shakti awakened by His Divine Grace. He used to awaken the Kundalini Shakti by the divine touch of His right thumb at the Trikuti of His devotee and sometimes by His gaze. He had even initiated some sadhakas in their dreams.

The book on Kundalini enables aspirants and spiritual seekers as well as those interested in the phenomenon of Kundalini to understand the deeper implications of Kundalini awakening.

The first part of this book contains discourses of Shri Guruji delivered between 14 October 1992 and 15 March 1997 during the Meditation Camps held at Siddheshwar Ashram.

The second part contains queries from devotees about Kundalini Shakti and the answers/clarifications given by Shri Gurudev.

The book ends with salutations offered to the Guru who is established in knowledge and power, who grants both worldly prosperity and liberation, who has made it possible to realize Him and by Whom all this world animate and inanimate, movable and immovable, is pervaded.

I pray to Shri Gurudev and Goddess Mother Kundalini to shower Their blessings on all their loving children, so that Their inner paths open and their search for the final goal, the Supreme Truth, comes to an end, and they achieve birthless and deathless eternity.

Back of the Book

Despite being successful in life and having all the material comforts, individuals constantly crave for the feeling of complete fulfillment. This is only possible when we realize our own self and merge with the source of our existence. This journey towards Shiva (the source) only gets initiated with the arousal of the Kundalini, the primordial energy that lies in a dormant state at the base of the spinal column.


Born on 25 March 1935, a post-graduate in political science and history and a doctorate in education, Dr B.S. Goel (Siddheshwar Baba) was chosen by destiny to be a yogi with the mission of unraveling to the people the deepest secrets of the Mind, individual consciousness and Cosmic Consciousness. At the age of 28 his Kundalini got awakened on its own. His uniqueness lies in his experience of classical psychoanalysis along with meditation, which he advocated and applied in the quest of the final goal: transcendence of the Mind and union with the Lord. On 3 October 1998 Siddheshwar Baba took Samadhi leaving behind his dedicated devotees to work for the Society of 'Third Eye Foundation of India' founded by him in 1982 to preach and propagate Indian culture, Yoga and spiritualism.

[animovado]

... because I do not have a belief system...

What do you have instead i wonder? I love to be educated too, Ray.

[greybeard]

Ray if you wish to dismiss the testimony of Ramana Maharshi--Nasargadatta--Ramesh Balsekar--Eckhart Tolle--- Mooji---and others as fiction that is your choice.
I did check out the book that you linked me--I dont dismiss it but it did not haul me in.

In my forties I went to Theosophical meeting regularly for years so I wasn’t ignorant of that then, but time passes and the memory has let that go.
In debate with you I am not attempting to change your mind--far from that--Im just putting across an alternative point of view to an audience I am aware of--this gives choice.
I do not dismiss what you say as fiction, it may or may not be completely accurate.
Same I can say of what I post.
I just share what I find to helpful to me and benefit from what many share.

With love
Chris

[Hym]

WE have a couple of interesting viewpoints here, both of them equally valid. However, for my sake and the sake of some viewing these posts, without further explanation and exploration I doubt we could understand what drives both.

I see a great deal of experience, obviously real from Greybeard's posts. What may be missing is his mainly posting the quotes from someone else's understanding, even if he thinks they may better describe his experiences. I'd prefer Greybeard's words more than those of anyone else, no matter how accomplished they are, or if they were from any of his teachers. Since I have had more than my share of very close friends who have had those experiences, who could really see your thoughts, etc., I surely get what he is talking about and do understand his use of words here.

From Finefeather's words I get, from my limited viewpoint ONLY, the distaste of all of those many pseudo-guides who have b.s.'d their egos into hiding the truth from the unknowing, by spiritually thirsty, students who listen to them. I agree that it is now time to do this all on our own, since many have the full inherent capabilities to bring themselves to being more aware. I do get the old hat use of living guides who may be of help, but this is not the time anymore to give your power away. If there are helpful practices to share, if you are so aware, then share them. Reverence is a viewpoint deserving of all living beings, well most ("how unevolved you are hey it's me"). I have never really had any respect for the liars and the thieves, the abusers of power whether they could read my thoughts or not. I'm not impressed. Please bugger the F. Off and move on. We've got some things to do here.

The use of the words enlightenment and kundalini, especially "kundalini yoga", have been so abused and vaguely described, hidden by the abusers that at this point, in this time, I think they both miss the point. Who cares? I look at my life and the lives and energies of those I choose to spend time with and all i seem to be attracted to is the qualities of the lives these people live.

On a separate but connected note I would never describe loving women, enjoying, being nourished by their presence (when it is positive) as dismissing their role in society simply because a man says nothing out of great awe. Do you also look at the beautiful sunrise and ask me to describe it, when my words would be incapable of giving you the truth of my experience?

For me, in my life, I see a definition of women as one of initially being in Awe at the energetics, the beauty and the power to affect men in both good and bad ways. My definition would be Yum, Wow, and a Big Smile. Despite the fact that the power of good women, (and good men, good souls here to serve others), cannot be defined, I do know that many need to be acknowledged for all they do, as well as actively being involved in removing the seemingly unending crap women are subjected to.

The fact is even good men, very good men, very, very good men cannot help anyone escape the bonds of victimhood. I gave, I sacrificed, I stood up, even with my own misconceptions and I only was here to lend a hand, didn't need or want any acknowledgement of my efforts. I just desired to see you smile and carry on, knowing what I knew when I was born, that you can do anything and you can protect yourself in your travels here. The disconnect from your self-empowerment runs deep, so deep that you sometimes forget who you really are. Hence, the attack on someone not taking to describe what may be indescribable....

[TraineeHuman]

Beautifully said, Hey it's me. Just to add a small point (not for you). Why so much preoccupation -- or any preoccupation, for that matter -- with defending one's self-image? Isn't that what the whole aim is to get beyond the clutches of (in a safe, constructive way)? We're all going to die anyway, and at that point we won't care in the least about proving we were "right", nor about getting caught with our pants down, or supposedly down.

[Flash]

hum hum.... I see...

My whip is ready Guish! lollllllll

If by not seeing genders you stop from seeing the greatness of each, there is definitely a blindness into it. And I would say more, potentially a blindness of the heart. Do not deny or reject what I am saying before the next 30 days. Please, ponder on this. And then, in 30 days, do as you wish with the result of pondering.

Genders exist, nature made us with genders. Even in the higher spiritual realms of the human make up, we remain with genders (astral, mental, causal, call it what you wish). There is a reason for it.

I can tell you that as a woman, I have understood the incredible energy required to manufacture throught one's body and then raise a child, and more if that child has difficulties, the total giving that one has to provide, the complete forgetting of oneself needs at times - most of the time. No meditation ever beats that for the opening of the heart and the increase wisdom ones reaches. Unconditional love starts right here.

I sincerely have not seen many men able of that much (although I have seen some that were absolutely great, namely my recently deceased step father and my own dad). Unless they are in total love with the mother of the child, they restrict their giving to what is bouncing back to them.

What I have seen are men that cannot come close to understanding what is required from one's heart, to raise children. If they were, they would help without even hesitating in raising the children (some do, I am aware of it, but nowadays, lots don't - they rather divorce without helping anymore, or getting to become laid back and having the wife doing multiple jobs, bringing money, raising the kids and cleaning/cooking - I am also aware that some men are deprived of the possibility of helping their child by scr ew ed up woman, these do suffer a lot).

And this, the children care given by mothers, is pretty much highly charged with unconditional love throughout the world. Be it the very poor woman in the sahara desert or the rich woman in Montréal rich suburbs.

There is, in my view, no equivalent to spiritual growth - raising children and giving oneself fully is the greatest potential for advancement. And it is often woman who go throught that exponential growth. Even when inviting again and again their male counterparts.

And some men

this is why I admire woman so much. Their strenght, courage, care and their love in action.








If someone asks me what you'd love in a woman, I'd be speechless.
I am also speechless :)
Surely you can see clearly the part woman play in the scheme? If it was not for a woman you would not even be here wondering what to love in a woman.
Your statement is actually quite chauvinistic against women... you're lucky my daughter is not on this forum :)

I do not understand the chauvinism in Guish statement, I took it as "speechless" meaning so much beauty and high consideration that he would remain in awe, speechless, he could not name the "unnamemable"..

Get off your high horse there girl!… I was'nt meaning that you girls are that good !

Only joking :)

I should have quoted the whole thing which is:


At some level the spiritually aware individual loves everything and everyone, and has at least a vague sense that they do. Why then single out one, or perhaps a few, individuals?

I suggest the main reason we (perhaps unconsciously) prefer to have a soulmate is because we have a sex instinct that is part of us and that we have to live with. And given that, we have no choice but to seek to transform it by the most effective means possible from the animal or human into something ultimately spiritual and even Divine. And having a soulmate efficiently elevates not just the body but the mind as well.
As we tend towards equanimity, the urge/instinct becomes weak as well because we tend to be happy with what we have and make the most of the current moment. If someone asks me what you'd love in a woman, I'd be speechless. I never had an answer for such things since a child as I don't search for things. Things come to us as long as we do the inner work.
In this conversation I understood it as a reply to soulmates etc…. And to say what is quoted above by Guish is to me a kind of opting out of the human race and it's facts.

Male and female are human requirements and humanity cannot exist without both genders. To say that he is speechless about what he would love in a woman… and then continue by saying that he never had an answer to this since a child is to me a gross blindness of the role woman play in life.

The fact that we can be male in one life and female in another does not take from the fact that we are all part of the continuation of humanity...

Maybe Guish should ask himself then “what is there to love in a 'soul?”

The idea that he is possibly trying to put forward is that as we become more advanced we see less of gender… this is not the case… because it is known that advanced beings do not see sex in the narrow light that most humans do. They know that the sacral energies can steer the week willed to a life of sexual dependence… and even the cause of rapes and other sexual deviousness… but when we take control of that energy and transmute it to the throat chakra… the white magic begins.
This is so significant that esoterics has a special word for it… “sublimation”

The sacral energy is also what many gurus or philosophers wrongly call Kundalini...

[Hym]

Yeah Flash, as a man i never much identified with the way women were treated by many societies. Even as a young boy I never had the same vibe. It sucks on so many levels, but I don't live in that lie. As far as not living for your children, I did it alone and will do it until I leave this body, as many men do. I do not understand how so many other men leave their children, or how a man could even consider that.

(Hey, TraineeHuman, I just am now editing what I wrote because only now did I see "not you" in your post. Maybe what follows can be seen in another way, as I see from your post that so many men cannot admit mistakes or even see their insensitivity towards their women and their children and thus they need to be seen as doing the right thing. If that's the right thing, not taking the loving responsibility for your children, then I have no words for the shallow soul inside.
I'd have to say that it takes a lot of weakness not to know your responsibility is born out of loving who you are, as much as loving those in your care.

Please disregard my remarks if they do not make sense in light of you saying "not you". )

Allow it to be a Great Year !!!!

[Chester]

Two beings posting recently on this thread. Both have had experiences. In one case, those experiences suggest a paradigm. In that case, the one who had the experiences which suggests a paradigm seems to suggest the suggested paradigm is universally true for all (by stating someone else's eternal destination based on their experiences is fiction.

Is it possible that the subtle realm allows for varying paradigms which a gross realm anchored mind cannot reconcile as possible to co-exist?

There seems to be room (and an honoring) of the experiences of one of these two posters by the other poster. There seems to be an authoritarian knowingness which is then imposed by the other poster where anything beyond what is deemed truth by this poster is fiction.

Just an observation.

Yes, its already 2016 in most parts of the world so I felt compelled to kickoff the new year thoughtfully.

May the retorts begin!

[Clear Light]

Two beings posting recently on this thread. Both have had experiences. In one case, those experiences suggest a paradigm. In that case, the one who had the experiences which suggests a paradigm seems to suggest the suggested paradigm is universally true for all (by stating someone else's eternal destination based on their experiences is fiction.

Is it possible that the subtle realm allows for varying paradigms which a gross realm anchored mind cannot reconcile as possible to co-exist?

There seems to be room (and an honoring) of the experiences of one of these two posters by the other poster. There seems to be an authoritarian knowingness which is then imposed by the other poster where anything beyond what is deemed truth by this poster is fiction.

Just an observation.

Yes, its already 2016 in most parts of the world so I felt compelled to kickoff the new year thoughtfully.

May the retorts begin!

Ah, now the following isn't meant so much as a retort as it is a rhetorical question :


Isn't Spiritual Dogmatism just as Repugnant as Religious Dogmatism ?



________________________________________

"Dismount your donkey at the summit"

Some places in this world are very hard to climb, and people
use animals. Each person can only ride one, and each animal
might have a different name. The riders go up the trail in dif-
ferent orders, and they discuss their varying opinions about
their experiences. They may even have conflicting opinions:
One traveler may think the trip thrilling, another may find it
terrifying, and a third may find it banal.

At the summit all the travelers stand in the same place. Each
of them has the same chance to view the same vistas. The
donkeys are put to rest and graze; they are not needed any-
more.

We all travel the path of Tao. The donkeys are the various
doctrines that each of us embraces. What does it matter which
doctrine we embrace as long as it leads us to the summit? Your
donkey might be a Zen donkey, mine might be a Tao donkey.
There are Christian, Islamic, Jewish, and even Agnostic don-
keys. All lead to the same place. Why poke fun at others over
the name of their donkey? Aren't you riding one yourself?

We should put aside both the donkeys and our interim ex-
periences once we arrive at the summit. Whether we climbed
in suffering or joy is immaterial; we are there. All religions (*)
have different names for the ways of getting to the holy sum-
mit. Once we reach the summit, we no longer need names,
and we can experience all things directly.

Deng Ming-Dao

________________________________________

(*) And Spiritual Traditions eh ?

[Finefeather]

Isn't Spiritual Dogmatism just as Repugnant as Religious Dogmatism ?

All dogmatism is repugnant... but truth is neither dogmatic nor arrogant... it's just the ignorant who believe it to be so... because to the ignorant truth just becomes another hypothesis to choose from, from the many out there.

[Clear Light]

Isn't Spiritual Dogmatism just as Repugnant as Religious Dogmatism ?

All dogmatism is repugnant... but truth is neither dogmatic nor arrogant... it's just the ignorant who believe it to be so... because to the ignorant truth just becomes another hypothesis to choose from, from the many out there.

Hmmm perhaps ... nevertheless you made your choice at some point too (from the many out there) no ?

[Guish]

L
hum hum.... I see...

My whip is ready Guish! lollllllll

If by not seeing genders you stop from seeing the greatness of each, there is definitely a blindness into it. And I would say more, potentially a blindness of the heart. Do not deny or reject what I am saying before the next 30 days. Please, ponder on this. And then, in 30 days, do as you wish with the result of pondering.

Genders exist, nature made us with genders. Even in the higher spiritual realms of the human make up, we remain with genders (astral, mental, causal, call it what you wish). There is a reason for it.

I can tell you that as a woman, I have understood the incredible energy required to manufacture throught one's body and then raise a child, and more if that child has difficulties, the total giving that one has to provide, the complete forgetting of oneself needs at times - most of the time. No meditation ever beats that for the opening of the heart and the increase wisdom ones reaches. Unconditional love starts right here.

I sincerely have not seen many men able of that much (although I have seen some that were absolutely great, namely my recently deceased step father and my own dad). Unless they are in total love with the mother of the child, they restrict their giving to what is bouncing back to them.

What I have seen are men that cannot come close to understanding what is required from one's heart, to raise children. If they were, they would help without even hesitating in raising the children (some do, I am aware of it, but nowadays, lots don't - they rather divorce without helping anymore, or getting to become laid back and having the wife doing multiple jobs, bringing money, raising the kids and cleaning/cooking - I am also aware that some men are deprived of the possibility of helping their child by scr ew ed up woman, these do suffer a lot).

And this, the children care given by mothers, is pretty much highly charged with unconditional love throughout the world. Be it the very poor woman in the sahara desert or the rich woman in Montréal rich suburbs.

There is, in my view, no equivalent to spiritual growth - raising children and giving oneself fully is the greatest potential for advancement. And it is often woman who go throught that exponential growth. Even when inviting again and again their male counterparts.

And some men

this is why I admire woman so much. Their strenght, courage, care and their love in action.








If someone asks me what you'd love in a woman, I'd be speechless.
I am also speechless :)
Surely you can see clearly the part woman play in the scheme? If it was not for a woman you would not even be here wondering what to love in a woman.
Your statement is actually quite chauvinistic against women... you're lucky my daughter is not on this forum :)

I do not understand the chauvinism in Guish statement, I took it as "speechless" meaning so much beauty and high consideration that he would remain in awe, speechless, he could not name the "unnamemable"..

Get off your high horse there girl!… I was'nt meaning that you girls are that good !

Only joking :)

I should have quoted the whole thing which is:


At some level the spiritually aware individual loves everything and everyone, and has at least a vague sense that they do. Why then single out one, or perhaps a few, individuals?

I suggest the main reason we (perhaps unconsciously) prefer to have a soulmate is because we have a sex instinct that is part of us and that we have to live with. And given that, we have no choice but to seek to transform it by the most effective means possible from the animal or human into something ultimately spiritual and even Divine. And having a soulmate efficiently elevates not just the body but the mind as well.
As we tend towards equanimity, the urge/instinct becomes weak as well because we tend to be happy with what we have and make the most of the current moment. If someone asks me what you'd love in a woman, I'd be speechless. I never had an answer for such things since a child as I don't search for things. Things come to us as long as we do the inner work.
In this conversation I understood it as a reply to soulmates etc…. And to say what is quoted above by Guish is to me a kind of opting out of the human race and it's facts.

Male and female are human requirements and humanity cannot exist without both genders. To say that he is speechless about what he would love in a woman… and then continue by saying that he never had an answer to this since a child is to me a gross blindness of the role woman play in life.

The fact that we can be male in one life and female in another does not take from the fact that we are all part of the continuation of humanity...

Maybe Guish should ask himself then “what is there to love in a 'soul?”

The idea that he is possibly trying to put forward is that as we become more advanced we see less of gender… this is not the case… because it is known that advanced beings do not see sex in the narrow light that most humans do. They know that the sacral energies can steer the week willed to a life of sexual dependence… and even the cause of rapes and other sexual deviousness… but when we take control of that energy and transmute it to the throat chakra… the white magic begins.
This is so significant that esoterics has a special word for it… “sublimation”

The sacral energy is also what many gurus or philosophers wrongly call Kundalini...


My initial point was that we are continuously changing and we can't be having a soul mate because of that. The second point is that as we grow spiritually, we develop equanimity and love/respect every life form. At this stage, one wouldn't be looking for certain qualities in certain women because one would be appreciating all of them and develop compassion for those who have egos and cause harm. It's so funny that I got branded as a sexist here. On a side note, I manage 8 people in my department and 5 are women. On a personal note, my wife starts work at 7 and finishes at 8 pm everyday. I look after my 2 year old son everyday and I understand when you talk about the upbringing of children. Sorry if anyone felt offended. Those who know me well understand that it's not intention to cause harm or win any debate.

Concerning not having a belief system, I use my spiritual intuition when taking serious decisions or in my workplace, I'd stick to facts backed by data. One can't have a fixed belief system because new data changes our beliefs. Hence, we hang to hypotheses which can change.

[greybeard]

My spiritual search began with AA
The founding member Bill W had a spiritual awakening and through that millions have been saved from a life of misery.

1 We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2 Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3 Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4 Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5 Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6 Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7 Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8 Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9 Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10 Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11 Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12 Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

These 12 steps of AA saved my life and are my constant guide.

As set out by the 12th step it could be said that a spiritual awakening happened.

Accepting that "One man's ceiling is another man's floor"

Chris

[Finefeather]

Isn't Spiritual Dogmatism just as Repugnant as Religious Dogmatism ?

All dogmatism is repugnant... but truth is neither dogmatic nor arrogant... it's just the ignorant who believe it to be so... because to the ignorant truth just becomes another hypothesis to choose from, from the many out there.

Hmmm perhaps ... nevertheless you made your choice at some point too (from the many out there) no ?
Well of course I did... but you seem to have the impression that I made 'the choice' while incarnated in my present life... when the knowledge that I am offering was experienced first hand 1000s of years ago... and you can believe that or reject that... i'm not the slightest bit worried either way... I am not here to win medals and attract fanatics.

Most of the choices we see handed out in the last 2000 years by almost every Tom Dick or Harry guru are the fiction stories created by those who do not want humanity to advance consciously... or stories misinterpreted to the point where no one knows which way to turn.

Don't get the impression that I am not aware of the truths which many are also handing out.

[Clear Light]

Most of the choices we see handed out in the last 2000 years by almost every Tom Dick or Harry guru are the fiction stories created by those who do not want humanity to advance consciously... or stories misinterpreted to the point where no one knows which way to turn.

Don't get the impression that I am not aware of the truths which many are also handing out.

Hmmm ... I suppose though it depends on what you mean by such "conscious advancement" (or perhaps an evolution of consciousness) ?

[Finefeather]

-


Most of the choices we see handed out in the last 2000 years by almost every Tom Dick or Harry guru are the fiction stories created by those who do not want humanity to advance consciously... or stories misinterpreted to the point where no one knows which way to turn.

Don't get the impression that I am not aware of the truths which many are also handing out.

Hmmm ... I suppose though it depends on what you mean by such "conscious advancement" (or perhaps an evolution of consciousness) ?
This is what I mean by consciousness advancement... or development... read it... and once completed you can come back and ask questions... don't just skip over it i'll know :)

http://www.laurency.com/L2e/Kl2_7.pdf

[Chester]

Most of the choices we see handed out in the last 2000 years by almost every Tom Dick or Harry guru are the fiction stories created by those who do not want humanity to advance consciously... or stories misinterpreted to the point where no one knows which way to turn.

Don't get the impression that I am not aware of the truths which many are also handing out.

Hmmm ... I suppose though it depends on what you mean by such "conscious advancement" (or perhaps an evolution of consciousness) ?

This is what I mean by consciousness advancement... or development... read it... and once completed you can come back and ask questions... don't just skip over it i'll know :)

http://www.laurency.com/L2e/Kl2_7.pdf



The theological and philosophical idiologies waged an unceasing war against each other...

I read enough because what I have read in many of the posts of the last few pages has emulated this very dynamic and thus has instantly eliminated itself from having any validity (to me) of being used to "back" a position inside the same dynamic as for me the dynamic in and of itself appears immature.

I am happy to accept that the experiences of another are true (to the experiencer) and I see it as healthy that the same experiencer explore the paradigm(s) those experiences suggest.

What I have learned no longer to do is to impose the paradigms my own unprovable, other worldly experiences suggest upon another and I do not take the position that the paradigm(s) suggested by my unprovable other worldly experiences are true for any other being, a group of other beings or universally.

It is sad to me when I read someone telling another that the other worldly paradigm of another is fiction while stating their own is fact.

Most of us do not rob children of their own exploration of their own wonderment... why do some of us do that to what we call "grown ups?"

[Chester]

My spiritual search began with AA
The founding member Bill W had a spiritual awakening and through that millions have been saved from a life of misery.

1 We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2 Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3 Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4 Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5 Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6 Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7 Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8 Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9 Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10 Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11 Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12 Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

These 12 steps of AA saved my life and are my constant guide.

As set out by the 12th step it could be said that a spiritual awakening happened.

Accepting that "One man's ceiling is another man's floor"

Chris

Two of the many wonderful things I experienced with Alcoholics Anonymous are -

AA does not promote, it attracts.

AA is made up of many individuals who share their experience, strength and hope.

In both of the above cases, there is no imposition of any paradigm, there is no calling of any unprovable other worldly opinions outside of those expressed within the 12 steps, the 12 traditions and the AA produced literature as "fiction."

In fact, some of the most humble, loving people I ever met have been met at AA meetings and in many cases were folks with 30 or more years of sobriety. Their avoidance of the allure of power that comes with authoritarianism has likely played a direct role in increasing the numbers of folks who have recovered from alcoholism (and other addictions).

[Flash]

You are all in luck today, my computer is broken, wont even shut down, nor start up, no screen nothing, so i type from iphone. The luck: my answer will be short

Guish, i am so happy you are such a good dad and husband, who share tasks with his wife. You just plainly understood something about active love. I just think that what makes the difference right now in your last answer is the true sharing of your personal experience which brings a different color to your spiritual one for the reader (me) instead of what looked like generalities about women at first. Personal experiences leading to and living spirituality seems always more powerful to explain or share. As long as the recipient mind and heart is ready and able

[ulli]

too much like a paradigm for some.

Sorry to see these posts deleted.
Just to let you know that I read and saved the Henry T. Laurency essay to my desktop, and am glad I caught it in time.

[Finefeather]

Most of the choices we see handed out in the last 2000 years by almost every Tom Dick or Harry guru are the fiction stories created by those who do not want humanity to advance consciously... or stories misinterpreted to the point where no one knows which way to turn.

Don't get the impression that I am not aware of the truths which many are also handing out.

Hmmm ... I suppose though it depends on what you mean by such "conscious advancement" (or perhaps an evolution of consciousness) ?

This is what I mean by consciousness advancement... or development... read it... and once completed you can come back and ask questions... don't just skip over it i'll know :)

http://www.laurency.com/L2e/Kl2_7.pdf



The theological and philosophical idiologies waged an unceasing war against each other...

I read enough because what I have read in many of the posts of the last few pages has emulated this very dynamic and thus has instantly eliminated itself from having any validity (to me) of being used to "back" a position inside the same dynamic as for me the dynamic in and of itself appears immature.

I am happy to accept that the experiences of another are true (to the experiencer) and I see it as healthy that the same experiencer explore the paradigm(s) those experiences suggest.

What I have learned no longer to do is to impose the paradigms my own unprovable, other worldly experiences suggest upon another and I do not take the position that the paradigm(s) suggested by my unprovable other worldly experiences are true for any other being, a group of other beings or universally.

It is sad to me when I read someone telling another that the other worldly paradigm of another is fiction while stating their own is fact.

Most of us do not rob children of their own exploration of their own wonderment... why do some of us do that to what we call "grown ups?"
The irony of the matter is that at least you have captured the link to something that might change your life...but it seems that you are one of those rare humans who can judge a book just by reading half a line.

So not to be the cause of any disruption in your thinking I have removed my last posts... which might get you back on the track of your paradigm. :)

Your strange method of posting by not actually giving the names of the people you want to praise and criticize and thinking how clever you are by doing that is truly remarkable.

Welcome back to Avalon... and try to lighten up this time... you won't believe what a little sense of humour can do for your spiritual growth :)

[Flash]

I am sorry too, seeing these posts deleted Finefeather. I do think you deserve as much presence here as any other - although the terminology you use sometime hits egos straight on, and sometimes the content as well. But what you bring is needed at this time in my views.

A shame egos get in the way, because to understand and succeed in getting rid of ghe dark forces that have overtaken this planet, meditations and half kundalinis are not enough. However instead of opposing to each other, would' t it be necessary to let go of our beliefs , put everything each of us know on the table and teach each other. No right or wrong, just teaching, even when one is convinced his is it. And learning.

And why not all of us stop writing posts that contains negativity. Lets make this place a meeting of able high minds and spirits / souls.

Finefeather is hitting egos. When we react to anything emotionally, our egos are at play. Why not learn to have it obey higher purpose instead? Believe me, that man has a lot to bring in, if we just patiently listen for a while.

While i am here, i would also like to thank Guish, Greybeard, Human trainee, clear blue sky, Ulli, hey its me, for your high level spiritual input in this forum. And of course finefeather too.
O


too much like a paradigm for some.

Sorry to see these posts deleted.
Just to let you know that I read and saved the Henry T. Laurency essay to my desktop, and am glad I caught it in time.

[Flash]

AA does not have to promote. When you are in total ditch. You will take the last resort offered to you to save your butt. Ant it is entirely fine

However, i have seen certainly seen as many very humble people in other study groups, other helping groups, or plain society for sure. As i have known many AA members who had these qualities. (And some who had stop drinks and drugs thanks to AA brotherhood, but whom i would not have left my daughter or my house alone with them lol)

Why not being positive Sam instead of being sly and oblique? Because you have been in a few posts on this thread. Have you withdrawn from the dark side to which you had pledge yourself last year? If so , show it in your behavior. And stop the mind fu. Ck. Games.



My spiritual search began with AA
The founding member Bill W had a spiritual awakening and through that millions have been saved from a life of misery.

1 We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2 Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3 Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4 Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5 Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6 Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7 Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8 Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9 Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10 Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11 Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12 Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

These 12 steps of AA saved my life and are my constant guide.

As set out by the 12th step it could be said that a spiritual awakening happened.

Accepting that "One man's ceiling is another man's floor"

Chris

Two of the many wonderful things I experienced with Alcoholics Anonymous are -

AA does not promote, it attracts.

AA is made up of many individuals who share their experience, strength and hope.

In both of the above cases, there is no imposition of any paradigm, there is no calling of any unprovable other worldly opinions outside of those expressed within the 12 steps, the 12 traditions and the AA produced literature as "fiction."

In fact, some of the most humble, loving people I ever met have been met at AA meetings and in many cases were folks with 30 or more years of sobriety. Their avoidance of the allure of power that comes with authoritarianism has likely played a direct role in increasing the numbers of folks who have recovered from alcoholism (and other addictions).

[Chester]

Hi Flash, if you read the point I made, you would answer the question you asked.

Anyone can have whatever view they wish to have of other worldly unproveable experiences and the paradigms those experience suggest yet to state their paradigm is "the truth' and all others "are fiction" is what prompted me to state my opinion that makes no sense and is simply paradigm wars. If folks enjoy paradigm wars then have at it... if perhaps one might consider the effect those paradigm wars have on vulnerable readers, then perhaps my point has a point.

The AA way of communicating such things (for me) leaves plenty of room for each individual to grow on their own and in their own way... to explore their own wonderment to. The authoritarian way creates a box which restricts individual growth unless the individual fits within the tiny stream provided by the teacher.

I simply shared my opinion about that dynamic, you may agree or... you may not and clearly you have the right.

Some demonstrate passive aggressiveness by taking their ball and going home.

[TraineeHuman]

I can tell you that as a woman, I have understood the incredible energy required to manufacture through one's body and then raise a child, and more if that child has difficulties, the total giving that one has to provide, the complete forgetting of oneself needs at times - most of the time. No meditation ever beats that for the opening of the heart and the increase wisdom ones reaches. Unconditional love starts right here.

I sincerely have not seen many men able of that much (although I have seen some that were absolutely great, namely my recently deceased step father and my own dad). Unless they are in total love with the mother of the child, they restrict their giving to what is bouncing back to them.

What I have seen are men that cannot come close to understanding what is required from one's heart, to raise children. If they were, they would help without even hesitating in raising the children (some do, I am aware of it, but nowadays, lots don't - they rather divorce without helping anymore, or getting to become laid back and having the wife doing multiple jobs, bringing money, raising the kids and cleaning/cooking - I am also aware that some men are deprived of the possibility of helping their child by scr ew ed up woman, these do suffer a lot).

And this, the children care given by mothers, is pretty much highly charged with unconditional love throughout the world. Be it the very poor woman in the sahara desert or the rich woman in Montréal rich suburbs.

There is, in my view, no equivalent to spiritual growth - raising children and giving oneself fully is the greatest potential for advancement. And it is often woman who go throught that exponential growth. Even when inviting again and again their male counterparts.

And some men

this is why I admire woman so much. Their strenght, courage, care and their love in action.

Oh yes, women are "normally" forced to find genuine love, which underlies the selflessness required of mothers in our society, or else they'll have to go through hell (and often the latter too anyway, as I guess you say, Flash).

As far as I understand, you can only find genuine love by finding love in abstract, so to speak, in universality. You need to love love itself, and not in the sense of infatuation, but "unconditional love". Even if you're with a soulmate, fail to find that and the relationship will fall apart eventually, or become just coexistence . Do most mothers truly find it through having to be a mother, though, I wonder? Perhaps imperfectly, but still they kind of get there?

People at least like to believe that they appreciate the overwhelming importance of love. I suppose in our culture that's from the influence of Christianity, which has been by far, by a huge order of magnitude, the most murderous and hypocritical of the major world religions -- and, of course, controlled almost entirely by men.

In the major Eastern religions, the importance of both wisdom and love are stressed (and bliss, too). In this thread I've tried to add beauty (and sensitivity, which is true beauty's constant companion) to that list, but I've found that most people from our culture would seem to have little appreciation beauty's importance. Anyone who truly understands wisdom and (unconditional) love will know better, though, I would have thought.

w4W7iRVUv8A

[Highwhistler]

.
Please know that I'm only reporting and describing my direct, first-hand, ongoing experiences, and my understandings, about my meditations. There are countless ways to have OB experiences, and I see everyone's methods and experiences, as being equally as valid and real as mine. And so whatever meditation paths you take ... I support you!

This is a report about the first-hand experiences that I've had hundreds of times while meditating. This is not about experiences that I've had while dreaming, or day dreaming, or when I'm in the state of awareness the floats between being awake and asleep. This is while I'm wide awake and brilliantly alert doing Vispassana-based meditation. This report condenses the first stage and only the first stage, of the OB experience into one place. If I use the words "you" or "we" or "your" or communiate in 3rd person ... please know that they are just figures-of-speech, as I'm truly only talking about MY experiences. I use those words to make my sentences and concepts flow, in the best way I can. OK ... here we go ...


Wide-awake Out-of-Body Experiences
while doing Vispassana-based Meditation (VM)

A VM session begins and I'm wide awake, relaxed and completely fascinated with the inner ecosystem.

For me, there is no effort to quieting the mind -- it is instantly silent. The reason this can happen, is because my center-most identity is the spacious and empty state of being -- which I call the Fundamental State of Being. It is not that thoughts and sensations don't come up -- of course they do! -- but I'm utterly unattached and not interested in them while meditating.

OK ... I am sitting there in bliss-filled silence ... and let's say, I feel a tingling in the foot, or a slight current of tension in the back of the neck. In true Vispassana tradition, it is noticed and let go. Even the noticing that I noticed it, is let go. Anything that floats into simple awareness is noted and let go. I'm wide awake as a center of awareness (a Presence) in which consciousness flows in and out effortlessly, within the vast theater of emptiness, within. All is well.

Then without my intention, effort, or will ... it is noticed that me, as the center of wide-awake awareness, is moving up ... up above its normal "location" within. Still, I remain totally relaxed ... and let that observation go. It's no different than letting anything go, and just as easy.

It is noticed that the "center of wide-awake awareness" is still observing and letting go of bodily sensations, thoughts, feelings, and so-called "external" noises, even tho it is a foot or two above the physical head. It is functioning normally. As taught in my Vispassana training and practiced for decades, I stay cool and utterly calm. It is absolutely easy to let go of the knowledge and consciousness that the "center of wide-awake awareness" is above the head of the physical body, below.

The "center of wide-awake awareness" rises to the top of the room. All consciousness during this meditation session is flowing through it ... and all of it is let go without effort, with the greatest of ease.

It is noted and let go, that the wide-awake meditation experience when out of the body is absolutely spectacular! All normal thoughts have utterly ceased from rising. Relaxation is supreme -- more thorough and complete than when in the body. The whole universe being perceived is filled with tranquility. The "center of wide-awake awareness" is floating in one moment -- the Now -- and consciousness, sensations, time and space float by.

Still, I'm connected to the body and can feel and let go of any of its sensations that arise. In fact, following along with my VM letting go skills, the entire body is now seen as a sensation ... and it is let go. No problem.

The meditation and clarity when fully awake and out of the body is remarkable. I let that understanding go, too.

I describe the "center of wide-awake awareness" as "functional" ... as it has the natural ability to move left, right, up, down, here, there -- without thinking about it, and with no effort what-so-ever. It can also re-enter the body instantly ... or slowly ... anytime it pleases. And it has the ability to select topics in consciousness to experience ... then release them, and instantly return to the spacious, silent, awake, state of being.

The feeling when out of the body is stunningly natural ... often feeling far more natural and certainly more relaxed, than when the center of awareness is in the body. And in true Vispassana fashion ... that feeling is released.

When brilliantly awake and out of the body, I notice that the consciousness that's expressing existence is constantly changing, and its floating within the center of awareness's "view" so to speak. The center of awareness is in one moment -- the Now -- and the center of awareness allows all of the consciousness and sensations of Creation to rise, flow, and disappear with absolute ease. The understanding that the "center of wide-awake awareness" is designed to be a consciousness experiencer, is noted, not judged as being either true or false ... then released, as well.

Finally, there comes a moment when the "center of wide-awake awareness" feels the need to re-enter the physical body ... and instantly -- boing! .. it is here in the body, totally at home, feeling relaxed and refreshed. All is well.

I open my eyes, get up, make coffee, and go to work.

[Highwhistler]

Two beings posting recently on this thread. Both have had experiences. In one case, those experiences suggest a paradigm. In that case, the one who had the experiences which suggests a paradigm seems to suggest the suggested paradigm is universally true for all (by stating someone else's eternal destination based on their experiences is fiction.

Is it possible that the subtle realm allows for varying paradigms which a gross realm anchored mind cannot reconcile as possible to co-exist?
.
Thanks for that thoughtful open-minded response, Sam.

I've been meditating for 3+ hours a day for nearly half a century. In my ongoing first-hand experiences, there's plenty of room in the Multiverse for countless meditators to have vastly different, but equally valid and very real experiences. There's so much room for creativity, exploration and discovery, that one meditator can have experiences, insights, and gain first-hand knowledge that are 180-degrees different than a meditator sitting right next to her.

I'm a meditation experiencer with the understanding that Multiple Simultaneous Realities are spread across countless dimensions and universes.

Thanks again.
.

[animovado]

Good to see the recovery of coherence! :heart:

[Finefeather]

I am back from the new year lunches and surrounding love that flows during this period… and decided to respond to Sam's posts with greater clarity in my heart.

Two beings posting recently on this thread. Both have had experiences. In one case, those experiences suggest a paradigm. In that case, the one who had the experiences which suggests a paradigm seems to suggest the suggested paradigm is universally true for all (by stating someone else's eternal destination based on their experiences is fiction.
If you had used the names of the persons you were referring to (Chris and Ray) it would have been a lot clearer to follow your hidden conflict with Ray :)

All your “suggestions” are dependant on the consciousness level of the person doing the “suggestion”… which in this case is you Sam.

That you cannot come to a better analyses of your dilemma here, seems to indicate that you are grasping at straws to create some meaningful argument. What you continually call a paradigm is nothing more that our minds placing things we cannot fathom out with our current knowledge in a basket called paradigms.

You don't like it because you cannot understand it yet.

But it would be worth checking in this basket every now and then just to see if any of the paradigms we have set aside may now be true.

Sam your entire history on this forum suggests that you are searching for truth… and I have been at the brunt of your hopping ideologies on a number of occasions… every new ideology you have embraced has become for you reality and I was just wondering if their was anything in your life that you believed in at some point and now regard as fiction?

Do you really believe that if someone knows… for a reason that you may not even yet understand… that what you are doing is a result of fiction… that that person should just sit back and let the other person walk in ignorance all the time?

And if your answer is something like… “well it is just an experience and we need the experience” then it's just the ego talking and making excuses.

What is the very purpose of teaching?

If there was no one telling us that what we are doing is a result of fiction how on earth do you think anyone is going to advance?

Fiction is the greatest cause of wrong thinking in this planet but how would you Sam or anyone be able to determine which is fiction and which is real?... the answer is objective experience and consciousness of worlds which few even know exist.

And just because someone has experienced his/her entire life practicing some philosophy or even things like the vipassana meditation technique... does not mean they have any idea what reality is... these are all practices which serve only self... in real life we serve others... because we know that serving others is the quickest way to reaching the next Solar kingdom.



Is it possible that the subtle realm allows for varying paradigms which a gross realm anchored mind cannot reconcile as possible to co-exist?
Well absolutely it does… you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the differences in people's thinking… but there is a very big difference between a paradigm and true reality.
The things that make us different are complex but understandable if you took a little of your time to study some of the links I have posted in threads… instead of showing your stubborn attitude and egotistical attachment to your puzzling philosophy… and no I am not belittling you or trying to present you as a fool… it is you who keeps knocking at my head… and you are failing to see the reason why this is happening.


There seems to be room (and an honoring) of the experiences of one of these two posters by the other poster. There seems to be an authoritarian knowingness which is then imposed by the other poster where anything beyond what is deemed truth by this poster is fiction.
I am certainly not authoritarian I value freedom above everything… but freedom comes with a price… and that price is knowledge of the laws of life… and without such knowledge our lives become steeped in fiction… because we get fooled by the very people we profess to want to avoid… the fiction writers, who are the main controllers in our lives.

We don't have to be frightened of truth... the ego loves to be right and hates to be wrong...

Only unconditional love and unity count... the rest is just the detail.

Take care
Ray

[ulli]

The paradigm of the non-existence of absolute truth is pretty wide-spread at this moment.
Sam is not the only one who insists on his right to assert that his experiences are less valid than for instance those of J. Krishnamurti.
Egalitarianism is what's behind it. Yet egalitarianism is a false paradigm.
There is no such thing. Not even two grains of rice can be found that are absolutely identical.

People deny the existence of the upward ladder, yet have no problem admitting the existence of a downward scale,
one filled with archons and reptilians.
The self sees itself at the apex of all that is, and has no clue that invisible eyes are watching, ready to assist and show the way. They would never impose, but will help when asked. Asked nicely.

Few are willing to admit that there might be a hierarchy of knowledge out there.
That there is an orderly and rational and logical design behind the world.

Stating that one has experienced such a reality will not produce any curiosity nor inquiry, but instead one is ridiculed, or even attacked.

One example of absolute truth, for those who might give the idea a try:
watching the nigh sky is a good start.

[Finefeather]

I read enough because what I have read in many of the posts of the last few pages has emulated this very dynamic and thus has instantly eliminated itself from having any validity (to me) of being used to "back" a position inside the same dynamic as for me the dynamic in and of itself appears immature.
Sam you make me laugh… but it is not because you are so funny but because of statements like this.

You read enough of the pdf I linked to make some kind of assessment when it has taken Beings billions of years to even begin to see some light in Hylozoics?

I notice even Chris says things like….


In my forties I went to Theosophical meeting regularly for years so I wasn’t ignorant of that then,
As if what I am presenting is Theosophy.. Hylozoics actually says some pretty sad thing about Theosophy so I am not sure why he even brought that up.

You see the problem is that people are so frightened that something is actually going to make more sense than their 50 year old dogma that they avoid it at all costs… too much like hard work I quess just to read a book which will take maybe a week… But even then one may not even get it because our consciousness is just not ready for it.



What I have learned no longer to do is to impose the paradigms my own unprovable, other worldly experiences suggest upon another and I do not take the position that the paradigm(s) suggested by my unprovable other worldly experiences are true for any other being, a group of other beings or universally.
It is sad to me when I read someone telling another that the other worldly paradigm of another is fiction while stating their own is fact.
So does this mean that all your theories(paradigms) which you currently believe in are provable? How does the average person live Sam?… they live by believing in some paradigm which may or may not be provable.

What you have to ask yourself is… “is everything I believe in now going to become provable one day or not?”… while you are waiting for truth and reality to dawn in your mind.

That is why I said I do not have a belief system… simply because if I cannot prove it… I do not believe it… my life is based on facts and reality… with lots of humour sprinkled in.

There was a time too where I needed to study all the gurus and philosophies and religions… years of days and nights in deep concentration and participation... but that was all in order to gain the knowledge in order to realise their fictitious nature… before my past memory was activated.

Everything I have said is provable… everything Hylozoics states is provable and correct… but that does not mean it is provable to everyone yet… as we all know when bringing up children… because there is such a thing as consciousness level… consciousness advancement in humans... which allows us to see logic and reasoning from a different level… a level which every human will eventually achieve… and for some this could be billions of years.

In the meantime humans will continue to flock to and be fanatical about their latest guru's utterances... when not one of these so called enlightened Beings or gurus or religions...or philosophies have even a clue that the Causal world even exists... that's how low level their teaching is... and don't get the impression that I am saying that everything they say and do is fiction... there are basic and obvious truths even in the barbarian and it may help a bit here and there but in general they are all fiction... in the bigger scheme... and you can prove this to yourself if you get off you belief system and do some research in the history of religions and philosophies... it's all out there... waiting for you.

Did you know that:

There are classes. In order to comprehend what is taught in a higher class the
comprehension gained in lower classes is required. There is a great difference between those
who have 150 000 incarnations behind them and those who have only 30 000. That is the real
ground for the diversity in people’s understanding of life.
Man is an individual (monad) who has passed from the animal kingdom to the human
kingdom. Those who have sojourned in the kingdom the longest time causalized seven eons
ago. The youngest ones are only 18 million years old. The older ones have cultivated the most
reckless selfishness during eons.
(7 eons is around 30 billion years old)
But you should know that Sam because you already “read enough” to know ;)




Most of us do not rob children of their own exploration of their own wonderment... why do some of us do that to what we call "grown ups?"
Because Sam most in this planet are not yet “grown ups” and you would be reckless if you let your child wonder off into an unknown place.

Take care
Ray

[animovado]

This discussion brings a very important point for me to my attention.
Humility.

Thank you all for that!

[greybeard]

Sorry I was not clear Ray, through the Theo and Bio-energy training i knew at that time about the various bodys/sheaths nadi--nervous system, chakras also a little about ascended masters angels hierarchy etc I also went to yoga classes.
I cant remember a fraction of what I once knew.
I went to seminars on angels put on by Dianne Cooper, had healing crystals implanted in my hand by them--well seemed so, as I could feel that happening

The late Dr David Hawkins, whom I met and have spoken about often enough-- admitted to talking in an authoritarian way because he was speaking Truth.

He claimed that enlightenment came when he was dying and shouted out "If there is a God I ask Him for help" He said that a passing Archangel brought about that state.

I have no opinion on this.

He taught Devotional -Non-duality and included in that was the Absolute, various levels of God the Archangels etc---all the same energy just different levels--l liken it to voltage. So there is nothing but "God" manifest in different forms at different energy levels. --my understanding is that we are "form-formless both and neither."

I am not claiming to be right--this is my understanding of the moment.

With love
Chris

[21g]

Dear all,

I have benefitted greatly from the contributions of the senior members here on this thread
and Avalon in general. Invaluable wisdom being shared. Greybeard, Trainee human,Uli and others. Thank you.

Hylozoism has sparked my interest and Finefeather, i have no doubt, i could, and hopefully will, benefit from what you choose
to share. Again, Thank you for sharing.

But damn, are all advanced Monads such Gonads ? !

Please take that enquiry with the levity intended. I am not as eloquent as Sam H.
Now, i feel better now i have that off my chest. Hopefully see this,( their is a dutch word for it- it translates as:
" coming crazy out of the corner " ) as a bit of contrast on an otherwise vivid discussion.

[greybeard]

Whilst it is in my memory
Dr Hawkins could remember past lives and said that whilst enlightenment seemed complete, finished, there is further revealing of Truth, also there are different levels of enlightenment. He also said that to higher beings, enlightenment here would seem like kindergarten.
Eckhart Tolle said similar---all this is contained within Non-duality--no separation, beyond mind to get this.
All are equal in Oneness. That seems contradictory but same essence. Made in His "image". Think that should be in His Energy
Ps
Memory memory to add.

Dr H said when he left this world last time he ended up in the void and while it seemed real, it lacked Love. He had been a Buddhist but had misunderstood part of the teaching --so he had to reincarnate to clear that up.

Im just endeavouring to point out that to the best of my knowledge Non-duality is far from fiction

Chris

[Finefeather]

Sorry I was not clear Ray, through the Theo and Bio-energy training i knew at that time about the various bodys/sheaths nadi--nervous system, chakras also a little about ascended masters angels hierarchy etc I also went to yoga classes.
I cant remember a fraction of what I once knew.
I went to seminars on angels put on by Dianne Cooper, had healing crystals implanted in my hand by them--well seemed so, as I could feel that happening

The late Dr David Hawkins, whom I met and have spoken about often enough-- admitted to talking in an authoritarian way because he was speaking Truth.

He claimed that enlightenment came when he was dying and shouted out "If there is a God I ask Him for help" He said that a passing Archangel brought about that state.

I have no opinion on this.

He taught Devotional -Non-duality and included in that was the Absolute, various levels of God the Archangels etc---all the same energy just different levels--l liken it to voltage. So there is nothing but "God" manifest in different forms at different energy levels. --my understanding is that we are "form-formless both and neither."

I am not claiming to be right--this is my understanding of the moment.

With love
Chris
Even if I wrote a book on the many many reasons why Hawkins is not giving out reality... and all the many times he has conned people... it would not change your belief... and I am quite ok with that...

The majority will have their personal beliefs for many lifetimes... until truth and reality comes to them one day... like the mist over a mountain... pure and refreshing... cleansing and enlightening.

[Flash]

I am just starting to understand, this year, following a tiny epiphany, that in fact i should not hold ANY belief as such, for anything or anyone. And even this is kind of a belief.

It is difficult to differentiate between beliefs, desires, will, anything that we (I) project outside from our inner self, and truth.

It is also difficult to differentiate between beliefs offered by others we hold in high esteem, and truth because beliefs are mixed with truths quite often. And , furthermore, many beliefs are a definite temporary help, which makes them very difficult to let go of.

As for myself, for the moment , i have decided to remain opened and may be hold beliefs that seem to help me at a given time, and be ready to discard any belief or anything contradicting perceived truth later on. Until i get smart enough in all aspects.

And "believe me" lolll some of the conspiracy theorists or references for ET endeaviours that i believed have now been classified as untrue abd beliefs related to their saying or doings discarded.

Had I been holding on my beliefs, what once helped temporarily a little bit would have become quite detrimental to me and those i love

In the end, all beliefs systems, all of them, have to go in order to see reality. This I now understand, slowly delicately threadibd towards that parh



Sorry I was not clear Ray, through the Theo and Bio-energy training i knew at that time about the various bodys/sheaths nadi--nervous system, chakras also a little about ascended masters angels hierarchy etc I also went to yoga classes.
I cant remember a fraction of what I once knew.
I went to seminars on angels put on by Dianne Cooper, had healing crystals implanted in my hand by them--well seemed so, as I could feel that happening

The late Dr David Hawkins, whom I met and have spoken about often enough-- admitted to talking in an authoritarian way because he was speaking Truth.

He claimed that enlightenment came when he was dying and shouted out "If there is a God I ask Him for help" He said that a passing Archangel brought about that state.

I have no opinion on this.

He taught Devotional -Non-duality and included in that was the Absolute, various levels of God the Archangels etc---all the same energy just different levels--l liken it to voltage. So there is nothing but "God" manifest in different forms at different energy levels. --my understanding is that we are "form-formless both and neither."

I am not claiming to be right--this is my understanding of the moment.

With love
Chris
Even if I wrote a book on the many many reasons why Hawkins is not giving out reality... and all the many times he has conned people... it would not change your belief... and I am quite ok with that...

The majority will have their personal beliefs for many lifetimes... until truth and reality comes to them one day... like the mist over a mountain... pure and refreshing... cleansing and enlightening.

[greybeard]

Even a sick chicken can lay healthy eggs Ray--LOL
I am not stupid enough to take the word of any one sage or man.
As I have said I don't claim to be right.

Love Chris

[Finefeather]

Even a sick chicken can lay healthy eggs Ray--LOL

Chomp away brother...:)

Love Ray

[TraineeHuman]

s not a virtue -- certainly not, at all.

[Guish]

At some point in our lives at least, we all need to believe nothing and then find out what we actually know and what we don't know. This throws us back onto our own direct experience and our aware reflection on our experience, and hopefully onto our inner self-discovery. And that's very, very hard work too, for many years. That's the only option, in the end. You have to keep putting in, and there's no shortcut, other than learning how not to fall into every trap along the way.

In the astral worlds, the levels where belief systems reign are, as a matter of fact, low, dense levels of astral existence, and I for one have never been interested in lingering there. Many people get trapped there after death for decades before they eventually break free, so please beware of holding too rigidly to any dogmatic belief system -- while you're in this world also. Danger. It's a prison. "Faith" is not a virtue -- certainly not in esoteric ancient Eastern spirituality. On the other hand, faith is considered a huge virtue in Christianity and similar religions. And it's an historical fact that Christianity (along with Christian countries also) has been by far -- by a huge margin and a significant order of magnitude -- the most murderous major world religion of the past two thousand years. That's not "normal". Don't accept anything on faith, at all. Especially not dogma, of any flavor.

The emperor, who was a devout Buddhist, invited a great Zen master to the Palace in order to ask him questions about Buddhism.
"What is the highest truth of the holy Buddhist doctrine?" the emperor inquired.
"Vast emptiness... and not a trace of holiness," the master replied.
"If there is no holiness," the emperor said, "then who or what are you?"
"I do not know," the master replied.

[greybeard]

I see still have not been clear enough
Clear Blue Sky posted else where about the donkey.
Simply the donkey which got you to the door is not that by which you enter.
Through "Not this, not this" (Neity Neity" all concepts belief systems have been let go of--there is still an awareness of the helpful part they played.
However what Is left is an awareness that "I am"----all the "know how" everything is redundant--there is still an echo of it. It served its purpose.

What else is needed but the fact "I am"?--Nothing, That's it!!!!
Belief is not needed---concepts certainly not. I exist without name or form.
Mind complicates and limits.
Chris

[Finefeather]

Simply the donkey which got you to the door is not that by which you enter.

Just imagine how much further along the way you would have been if you had used a race horse to get you to the door.

Whilst experiencing so called 'evil' is often a good thing to know that side of life...it does not mean that we need to have had a wrong spiritual belief system to understand truth... because... if truth and reality is known we can immediately recognize false belief... simply because it does not conform to reality.

This idea is just what the controllers want you to believe because that way it takes that much longer before they see the back of us.

Their very goal is to keep you here as long as possible steeped in fiction and dogma... and the irony of it is that most have actually learnt to love and protect the very thing that shackles them to the wheel of incarnation.

[Finefeather]

Sorry I seem to have missed this part...


What else is needed but the fact "I am"?--Nothing, That's it!!!!
……...I exist without name or form.
Impossible...
Everything that exists, including all humans are monads… and monads have form because a monad is matter… and just because the yogi or the guru cannot see this does not mean there is something called formless.

There are no formless worlds. “Formless” can only be understood in the sense that the forms existing do not correspond to human experience of form. Even the so called 'atom' is a material form… and all the sub-particles of an 'atom'. All worlds...far far higher than any guru or Yogi has ever ventured...is filled with the forms of the natural kingdoms existing in the matter of each world.

Anyone who says they have been OB or meditating and came across a formless world was not paying attention… and just because we can walk through stuff during OB does not mean it's formless… even light shows in the Causal World are forms.

And did you know that each different monad/Self has it's own unique 'name' in the form of a sound tone?


Mind complicates and limits.

Mind does not complicate or limit...it is our inability to control mind that complicates and limits…
If it was not for mind you would be unconscious… unable to think…

Mind is mental consciousness…. Just as feeling is emotional consciousness.

If we never had a mind we would be unable to think… we would be unconscious.
When we go OB we have a mind… so we can think…
When we meditate we have a mind… so we can think about the subject of our meditation… thoughtless meditation is about as useful as having a nap… our minds are on idle.

Thinking is a consciousness expression and without consciousness we cannot think.
Some quotes on thought:

Control of thought is acquired by constant attention to the expressions of consciousness.
Control of thought brings about control of life.
Controlling his thought the individual becomes the master of his destiny.
Thought is the power that shapes matter.
Thought is not the effect but the cause of the composition of matter.
Life and consciousness are not the products of matter. The function creates the organ, not
the organ the function.
Thought is a consciousness expression creating forms in mental matter (producing a mental elemental).
Thought is energy.

[Flash]

this is plainly beautiful:

"Control of thought brings about control of life"!

Mind brings about consciousness.

Control of thoughts brings about right creations - our purpose, to become real creators in our own rights

This is why we, as a race, are caught in the astral/emotional, not able to reach a thinking process through it - because through emotions our thoughts are directed to places where we would not wish to create, if we were conscious, yet we do create, very similar to the batteries supply we are in the movie The Matrix, raw energies organised by others to create their world.

The thick fog of emotionality and astral - in which it seems we are incredibly active but pretty unconscious leaves us stagnating - I bet some races have the thick fog of mental, without yet further development which is needed to become worlds creators lollll

Higher the thoughts, finer the matter created I bet.

We must be sprayed constantly with higher thoughts by some benevolent beings, in order to balance the negativity there is here. Thanks to the sprayers. Many thanks.

Until we, the children, are grown to a level where we handle our own thinking and be consciousness - benevolent sprayers needed ;)

My question remains always and I know I should not dwell on it: why are there emotional control through fear, and other energies, stopping our growth? What is the purpose?

To me it feels like a bad family where scre wed up parents scr ewed up their children from generation to generation, very unconsciously - but it started somewhere, somewhere, a crooked thinking process had to be started with the will of using it. Why? what is the greater purpose? Why impose that on a whole race altogether? Or put another way which is out of victimhood belief system, why has an entire race accepted to play that game in this way, to the risk of never evolving?

who knows I may never get this answer... not at my level of development.

Well, coffee time:coffee:

And remember Flash, become, be... the sprayer, for the good of all. Consciousness!



Sorry I seem to have missed this part...


What else is needed but the fact "I am"?--Nothing, That's it!!!!
……...I exist without name or form.
Impossible...
Everything that exists, including all humans are monads… and monads have form because a monad is matter… and just because the yogi or the guru cannot see this does not mean there is something called formless.

There are no formless worlds. “Formless” can only be understood in the sense that the forms existing do not correspond to human experience of form. Even the so called 'atom' is a material form… and all the sub-particles of an 'atom'. All worlds...far far higher than any guru or Yogi has ever ventured...is filled with the forms of the natural kingdoms existing in the matter of each world.

Anyone who says they have been OB or meditating and came across a formless world was not paying attention… and just because we can walk through stuff during OB does not mean it's formless… even light shows in the Causal World are forms.

And did you know that each different monad/Self has it's own unique 'name' in the form of a sound tone?


Mind complicates and limits.

Mind does not complicate or limit...it is our inability to control mind that complicates and limits…
If it was not for mind you would be unconscious… unable to think…

Mind is mental consciousness…. Just as feeling is emotional consciousness.

If we never had a mind we would be unable to think… we would be unconscious.
When we go OB we have a mind… so we can think…
When we meditate we have a mind… so we can think about the subject of our meditation… thoughtless meditation is about as useful as having a nap… our minds are on idle.

Thinking is a consciousness expression and without consciousness we cannot think.
Some quotes on thought:

Control of thought is acquired by constant attention to the expressions of consciousness.
Control of thought brings about control of life.
Controlling his thought the individual becomes the master of his destiny.
Thought is the power that shapes matter.
Thought is not the effect but the cause of the composition of matter.
Life and consciousness are not the products of matter. The function creates the organ, not
the organ the function.
Thought is a consciousness expression creating forms in mental matter (producing a mental elemental).
Thought is energy.

[greybeard]

Ray you are just the opposition party, that's what Dad called Mum.
You are flying in the face of traditional teachings--everyone/thing out of step but what you are pointing to.

I don't need thought to know, without words, that I exist.
I am the in-dweller I inhabit this body---that which I am becomes form.
I became human temporarily.
What exactly am I before I was Chris and I after this persona --body is exited?

Sages since time -im memorial have discovered, some times spontaneously, exactly the same Truth.
Not from books, not from teaching, not from linage, but direct Self realisation.

I do not continuously contradict what you post-- I don't claim to be an authority--Not saying there is only one valid teaching.

With love
Chris

Ps the un manifest became manifest.
Thought is without form.
Could be said we are all thoughts of God

[TargeT]

My friend from Alaska recently has a business go under and was stressing out, I offered a spare room to him for as long as he needs at my place so he can De-compress.


Going to pick him up from the airport in a hour; hopefully my house & this island will be the perfect thing to help him reset.

I'm not sure that he totally understands what he's getting into; the animals far out number the humans at my place... haha

[Flash]

My friend from Alaska recently has a business go under and was stressing out, I offered a spare room to him for as long as he needs at my place so he can De-compress.


Going to pick him up from the airport in a hour; hopefully my house & this island will be the perfect thing to help him reset.

I'm not sure that he totally understands what he's getting into; the animals far out number the humans at my place... haha

This is truly the right thread for this Target, thanks for reminding us, in the action, how it is done.

[TargeT]

This is truly the right thread for this Target, thanks for reminding us, in the action, how it is done.

I have to remind myself of this often... being present & mindful is a constant struggle & my actions are my favorite litmus test for how I did (actions aligning with ideals (which I hope is my "higher self")).

Lots of paths, do what feels naturally right to you and you can't be going to far wrong!

[Flash]

My friend from Alaska recently has a business go under and was stressing out, I offered a spare room to him for as long as he needs at my place so he can De-compress.


Going to pick him up from the airport in a hour; hopefully my house & this island will be the perfect thing to help him reset.

I'm not sure that he totally understands what he's getting into; the animals far out number the humans at my place... haha

This is truly the right thread for this Target, thanks for reminding us, in the action, how it is done.

Greybeard - Chris

I exist is a thought - it is consciousness
I was, I am, I will be is a thought, consciousness - the consciousness of the eternal being we are, forming a thought - emitting energy - light
Thought is the conscious regard/look
Thought is energy, is the first impulse, the creator and the creation, sounded or seen or sensed
Our soul/monad, the center is also a pure thought
Resting on a thought/energy of love :sun:

In the eternal being, the presence in this body is not even the space of the blink of an eye thought experiencing dense matter

in fact, this is wordless, and i am trying to expresse it in a language i do not even master lollllllllll silly of me

[greybeard]

My friend from Alaska recently has a business go under and was stressing out, I offered a spare room to him for as long as he needs at my place so he can De-compress.


Going to pick him up from the airport in a hour; hopefully my house & this island will be the perfect thing to help him reset.

I'm not sure that he totally understands what he's getting into; the animals far out number the humans at my place... haha

This is truly the right thread for this Target, thanks for reminding us, in the action, how it is done.

Greybeard - Chris

I exist is a thought - it is consciousness
I was, I am, I will be is a thought, consciousness - the consciousness of the eternal being we are, forming a thought - emitting energy - light
Thought is the conscious regard/look
Thought is energy, is the first impulse, the creator and the creation, sounded or seen or sensed
Our soul/monad, the center is also a pure thought
Resting on a thought/energy of love :sun:

In the eternal being, the presence in this body is not even the space of the blink of an eye thought experiencing dense matter

in fact, this is wordless, and i am trying to expresse it in a language i do not even master lollllllllll silly of me

Yes Flash wordless.
Be still and Know that I am God.

What is permanent?

Thoughts come and go.

I remain.

According to Eckhart Tolle and others, contracted conscious is evolving to know it self and even beyond consciousness is awareness.
Its just words but awareness is permanent and not personal.

Again not claiming to be right but thats my understanding --which has changed over the years and certainly is not permanent.

With Love Chris

Ps to add Self realisation Self is Self aware without anything else necessary for validation.---no subject or object = One without a second--as spoken of in ancient text. Nothing separate.

PPs Thoughtless awareness.

[TraineeHuman]

hey were hopefully having. You can find some similar arguments for part of this conclusion in the following video: IBnhpEXXnbo
I'm simply not interested in debating facts which have already been proved, as far as I understand.

Far better to go further, and celebrate the glories of intuitive perception, of the Divine. They can't really be put neatly into a rational expression.

[Flash]

I started this thread with the very strong intention that readers would only speak based on their own direct experiences, and the direct implications of those. Not their theories or beliefs. Intuition is a faculty that lies behind the veil and that is higher, and cuts deeper, than any "rational" arguing or denying. It quite often contradicts, and thereby supercedes, reason (and all thought). The exercise in post #24 gives the reader the first step in how to learn to use the intuition. (Do it, please! And keep doing it! Plus all the other exercises I've given.) Of course, it takes ever so much practice and trial and error and development of consciousness to develop the intuition to an accurate level. For many, it takes years, and it takes seemingly super-human dedication. Action, as TargeT says, and mindfulness, and experience.

Unfortunately, in this thread I did then include some material about how quantum physics has proved that the physical world can't be made (ultimately) out of objects or forms. And about some other ontological topics. This was intended purely to help readers make sense of the intuitive experiences they were hopefully having. You can find some similar arguments for part of this conclusion in the following video: IBnhpEXXnbo
I'm simply not interested in debating facts which have already been proved, as far as I understand.

Far better to go further, and celebrate the glories of intuitive perception, of the Divine. They can't really be put neatly into a rational expression.

Intuition is based on experience often, HumanTrainee, and experience is also based in part of acquisition of knowledge - I won't go in space and apply quantum physic knowledge or I won't apply new mathematical know how, yet I can intuit if this know how is useful or not in my understanding. You see...

When I hear everything is about intuition, my straight hair get curly a bit and my nose itchy. Lots of people talk about intuition as an extension of their highly emotional world, which has not much to do with spiritual intuition, if I can name it like this. I feel therefore I intuit = false equivalence, in my book. I have seen people teliling me they intuit my inner state, lollll, while entirely based on emotions. Or they intuit that I am angry when I was having a hot flash. You see.

I prefer to name it inner development, or consciousness development.

And to tell the truth, i have not seen many consciousness development that were proven facts. Therefore, much is debatable.

Finally, Human Trainee, I can't talk for others, but for me, whatever I wrote was based on my own experience, which takes into account intelligence, knowledge acquisition, and heart development. I am that way. This is the way I understand things, and this is one of the ways that pushes me to have intuition.

In fact, when I write on this forum, it mostly comes from my own reflexions, that they are stupid or not does not matter. They are based on what I feel, learn, know.

So, please, do include material that is calling for our intelligence as well as our heart. This is how one develops, I intuit :Angel:

PS: if we avoid theories (which sometimes help in understanding) and beliefs, we may as well have nobody here, because humans are sadly a bunch or walking beliefs. One of the greatest and most difficult work to do is to handle these beliefs so that we can evolve throught and then without them. Show me someone who has no beliefs, I will tell you he is not human anymore.

Intuition supersede reason and all thoughts??? Then lets get rid of Carmody and Ulli, because although very intuitive, they are also very strong at thoughts. At a human level, as describe right above, maybe (because we think very little, we emote a lot), but on a higher level, I do not think so. We may be the end result, us human, and our soul, of universe's thought, of god's thought. Who are we to say we aren't?

But in the end, you know, we may be talking of the same thing, but on different levels and points of observation.

[Guish]

I started this thread with the very strong intention that readers would only speak based on their own direct experiences, and the direct implications of those. Not their theories or beliefs. Intuition is a faculty that lies behind the veil and that is higher, and cuts deeper, than any "rational" arguing or denying. It quite often contradicts, and thereby supercedes, reason (and all thought). The exercise in post #24 gives the reader the first step in how to learn to use the intuition. (Do it, please! And keep doing it! Plus all the other exercises I've given.) Of course, it takes ever so much practice and trial and error and development of consciousness to develop the intuition to an accurate level. For many, it takes years, and it takes seemingly super-human dedication. Action, as TargeT says, and mindfulness, and experience.

Unfortunately, in this thread I did then include some material about how quantum physics has proved that the physical world can't be made (ultimately) out of objects or forms. And about some other ontological topics. This was intended purely to help readers make sense of the intuitive experiences they were hopefully having. You can find some similar arguments for part of this conclusion in the following video: IBnhpEXXnbo
I'm simply not interested in debating facts which have already been proved, as far as I understand.

Far better to go further, and celebrate the glories of intuitive perception, of the Divine. They can't really be put neatly into a rational expression.

Excellent insight Trainee. The problem is that the left hand side of the brain which is responsible for rational thinking cannot understand spirituality. Initially, I didn't try this exercise on post 24 because I wasn't interested in OB. I'm unable to do any mantra meditation right now. I used to do "So hum" meditation a few years ago and yesterday, after 5 minutes of chanting, I lost my body consciousness totally. Only Zazen seems to work right now. You talked about being grounded and I pasted something from the Divine life society which can be useful to readers.

VISIONS OF SPIRITS

Sometimes, bad spirits will trouble you. They may have ugly, fierce faces with long teeth. Drive them with your strong will. Give the word of command: "Get out." They will go away. They are vampires. They are elementals. They will not do any harm to the Sadhakas. Your courage will be tested here. If you are timid, you cannot march further. Draw power and courage from the Atman within, the inexhaustible Source (Avyaya). You will come across very good spirits also. They will help you a lot in your onward march.

There is a kind of vision one occasionally gets during meditation. You may behold a dazzling light with abrupt motion. You may behold a head of marvellous form, of the colour of a flame, red as fire and very awful to look at. It has three wings of marvellous length and breadth, white as a dazzling cloud. At times they would beat terribly and again would be still. The head never utters a word, but remains altogether still. Now and again, there is beating with its extended wings.

During meditation, some of the visions that you see are your own materialised thoughts, while some others are real, objective visions.

BREAK VEIL AFTER VEIL

If you get experiences of the glimpses of Self during intense meditation, if you see a blazing light during meditation and if you get spiritual visions of angels, archangels, Rishis, Munis, Devatas and any other extraordinary spiritual experiences, do not fall back in terror. Do not mistake them for phantoms. Do not give up the Sadhana. Plod on. Persevere diligently. Break veil after veil.

If there is any error in Sadhana (meditation), at once consult the senior Sannyasins or realised souls and remove the mistake. If your general health is sound, if you are cheerful, happy and strong, physically and mentally, if the mind is peaceful and unruffled, if you get Ananda in meditation and if your will is growing strong, pure and irresistible, think that you are improving in meditation and everything is going all right.

March on boldly. Do not look back. Cross the intense void and darkness. Pierce the layer of Moha. Melt the subtle Ahankara now. Svarupa will shine by itself. You will experience the Turiya (Arudha state).

OBSTACLES TO MEDITATION

Obstacles to meditation are really from within. Environments are from within; you create your own environments. Try to be happy in whatever situation you are placed. Do not complain. Bear sufferings. You can conquer Nature. Maya is Tuchha (nothing) or Alpa (small or non-entity) for a Brahma-Jnani.

The obstacles to meditation are only from within. Sleepiness, passions, confused state of the mind, Manorajya (building castles in the air) are the chief obstacles that stand in the way of fixing the mind on God or Brahman. The five hindrances to meditation, viz., sense-desire, ill-will, sloth-torpor, flurry-worry and perplexity should be removed. For, when these are not removed, meditation cannot arise. The mind that lusts after many things through sense-desire is not concentrated on one object; or being overcome by sense-desire, it does not enter upon the progress of meditation in order to put away the sensuous element. The mind that is harassed by ill-will concerning an object does not proceed at once. The mind that is overcome by sloth and torpor is unwieldy. Obsessed by worry and flurry, it does not repose, but flirts about. Struck by perplexity, it does not go on the path that leads to the attainment of meditation and Samadhi. Obstacles to meditation are thus really from within. They are not from without. Train the mind properly.

Laya (sleep), Vikshepa (tossing of mind from one object to another), Kashaya (memory of sensual pleasures) and hidden Vasanas and Rasasvada (the happiness derived from Savikalpa Samadhi) are four stumbling blocks in meditation.

[Guish]

TH,

Since you talked about beauty in the thread. I'm posting something with English subtitles but I know you'd listen to it "intuitively".

SiIu-COuHKw

[greybeard]

As far as science goes, if an "experiment" or process is "duplicated" and produces the same result then it is accepted as proven.
From that I would say that Self realisation is proven but beyond mind to describe adequately.
That which can not be spoken of.
Also as far as Kundalini goes that is my direst experience, on going, though I have not gone into great detail, or mentioned all that happened associated with this. The pulling at the third eye, the scalp tingling the over whelming love of self and others, the bliss--just to mention a few "side affects"
The gradual transcending of ego--still work in progress.
You could say that this is of the Higher Self.
I appreciate the work of Tom Campbell.

Chris

[Valley]

I started doing a meditation exercise several years ago, which advanced through several different 'stages' in a short amount of time. I'll share here in depth for the first time in this thread, as I like TraineeHuman's 'approach' of asking for personal experiences, as opposed to relaying someone else's.

I started about an hour after waking up from my normal sleep cycle and sitting with eyes closed in an adjustable reclining easy-chair, with legs straight out and the back at an angle of around 45° or so. I was in a position where all the muscles in the whole body could be relaxed, and I wouldn't fall asleep. I found that if I laid back too far, then I would fall asleep easier on accident.

Then started completely relaxing the whole physical body in segments, one slow deep breath per segment... starting with the feet... then lower legs... then lower legs with feet... then upper legs... then the whole legs as one... and so on, until finishing with the head... then relaxing the whole body as one complete unit for a number of breaths. If one area didn't feel quite as relaxed as the rest, then would do extra on that area... and would do extra 'repititions' for the hands and face. Interestingly, the face seemed to be the area that contained the most tension.

The whole body began to noticeably get warmer and feeling very relaxed, so I could tell that it was having a direct effect already. Then moved on to relaxing the mind... again using slow deep breaths to relax and visualize releasing each new thought with every long, slow exhale.

This is around the part of the meditation where odd noises started to 'appear' like footsteps walking into the room, or a door opening and closing, or sounds of someone talking... which, at first caused me to open the eyes and look around to always see nobody there. It was almost like a half-sleep state, yet still fully conscious, and many of these sounds corresponded to thoughts I was thinking earlier in the meditation. These sounds spooked me and almost caused me to stop meditating completely, and it would take a while before I could get that 'deep' again if I opened the eyes and looked around... but decided to just keep using the slow deep breaths to relax more and more, even if the sounds appeared.

To be continued...

[TraineeHuman]

I prefer to name it inner development, or consciousness development.

And to tell the truth, i have not seen many consciousness development that were proven facts. Therefore, much is debatable.

Finally, Human Trainee, I can't talk for others, but for me, whatever I wrote was based on my own experience, which takes into account intelligence, knowledge acquisition, and heart development. I am that way. This is the way I understand things, and this is one of the ways that pushes me to have intuition.

In fact, when I write on this forum, it mostly comes from my own reflexions, that they are stupid or not does not matter. They are based on what I feel, learn, know.

So, please, do include material that is calling for our intelligence as well as our heart. This is how one develops, I intuit :Angel:

PS: if we avoid theories (which sometimes help in understanding) and beliefs, we may as well have nobody here, because humans are sadly a bunch or walking beliefs. One of the greatest and most difficult work to do is to handle these beliefs so that we can evolve throught and then without them. Show me someone who has no beliefs, I will tell you he is not human anymore.

Intuition supersede reason and all thoughts??? Then lets get rid of Carmody and Ulli, because although very intuitive, they are also very strong at thoughts. At a human level, as describe right above, maybe (because we think very little, we emote a lot), but on a higher level, I do not think so. We may be the end result, us human, and our soul, of universe's thought, of god's thought. Who are we to say we aren't?

But in the end, you know, we may be talking of the same thing, but on different levels and points of observation.

Yes, I claim that intuition is a "senior partner" to reason and emotion, but I agree it's a "partner" none the less.

But it's a matter of direct experience, for myself and many others, that (genuine) intuition penetrates into a realm that lies beyond the mental, a realm far more obviously interconnected with Source, with the One. Saying such things as "Thou art That" ("You are God/ the One") does indeed very accurately describe how the intuition sees things. (Please see also the recent film on Living Nonduality.) On the other hand, as soon as you start to bring reason in, you've dropped out of the intuitive realm (where nonduality is known, consciously or at least implicitly). You've allowed the mental to be your master and for it to organize all the (individual version of) reality around you -- unless you have your intuition's very wise insights fresh at hand, that is.

The purpose of the exercises and practices I've presented has been to enable readers to quickly switch their reason off, temporarily, and also to go into direct intuitive perception/being. Not just verbal descriptions such as "Thou art That" (which I see as rather useless unless one takes such action to go beyond just the descriptions), but the direct experiencing of that whole world/realm, the world (or the level) of (pure) intuition.

Because we live in a physical world, though, and a society conventionally/consensually dominated by mental reasoning, I'm certainly not saying that rationality is useless, Flash. I am saying, however, that the ability to often switch into genuine intuition -- and, indeed, quickly back and forth between that world and the world of reason -- is desirable, and it's an essential "skill" for certain things, most notably, perhaps, for achieving freedom from unhappiness, and for being in communication with one's Higher Self and beyond.

I also agree that what many individuals call "intuition" has nothing to do with the genuine kind of intuition I'm talking about. "Spiritual" intuition sounds fine, if you like. And may I suggest that "the mirror" for your reflections, plus what integrates them together, is none other than what I would call your intuition.

[Finefeather]

Unfortunately, in this thread I did then include some material about how quantum physics has proved that the physical world can't be made (ultimately) out of objects or forms. And about some other ontological topics. This was intended purely to help readers make sense of the intuitive experiences they were hopefully having. You can find some similar arguments for part of this conclusion in the following video: IBnhpEXXnbo
I'm simply not interested in debating facts which have already been proved, as far as I understand.

(my emphasis above)

I watched this 'proof' that you presented TH and was quite glad I did because this has opened my eyes to yet another fiction writer.

Tom Campbell starts off by saying that we should not believe anything and we must have experienced something first hand to understand it…. And I agree entirely… he ends off stating categorically that “reality is not objective”… based on his lengthy presentation of the double slit experiment...which I will not go into here… except for one conclusion he has come to…

He says that “particles are not particles, they are probability distributions”… which means roughly that they are what they are in the same manner as the number which will come up when throwing a dice… who knows… and forgetting that we observed particles every day… because a particle is just a minute portion of matter.

Tom Campbell contradicts himself by believing in something he has never personally experienced…. He has come to his conclusions by believing in the very scientists who he himself says were once confused/ignorant… as if the new bunch could not possibly be missing something now!

How many more times must scientists come to new conclusions before it will be realised that they are still far from uncovering the reality of life?

It is quite clear to me that this entire 'double slit experiment' is doomed to be misunderstood simply because the very scientists who are performing them have no idea what reality is… and that includes Tom Campbell.


The primordial atom is the least possible part of primordial matter and the least possible firm point for an individual consciousness.
It is in the cosmos that the primordial atoms’ potential qualities are actualized. Our cosmos is a globe in primordial matter. In primordial matter there is an unlimited number of such globes. The cosmos is composed of primordial atoms, which are the sole content of the cosmos. The cosmos is built in such a manner that primordial atoms form a continuous series of ever more composed kinds of atoms, ever coarser particles.

What is it that prevents anyone from understanding that everything that exist in our Cosmos...in all of it's worlds... from the densest to the finest (49 worlds) is made up and manifested from crystallised primordial matter which is so tiny that no human will ever be able to observe it?...and although you might even know of it... because this is the real you... the real Self... no human has yet actually realised it... and when you finally do... you are no longer human... that is the purpose of consciousness growth... the goal of the humans.

We are electric Beings...atomic Beings...light Beings...Divine by nature and each with the consciousness which we have individually achieved.

Take care
Ray

[Flash]

Dear Trainee Human,

To me, you seems to be confounding brain (and in particular the left hemisphere) or mental and reason, with thought. To me, they are not the same. The brain thinking processes are organised for this 3D environment, to be able to analyse and survive. It creates some thoughts which when mix with emotions, become thoughtforms, and it mostly processes other thoughtforms that are not his creation. And yes, you then allow the mental to be your master (believe me, I am a master in allowing this brain to be my master lollll - very difficult habit to get rid of)

However, when "illumination" happens, meaning illumination of the body by the soul, illumination of the brain (light in the head- which is I think different from kundalini rising), a transformation occurs (for me, a slow transformation indeed, with on and off light, the switch being often at off still, lollll). Thought has then a very different quality - reason is then the equivalent to intuition with a quality vastly different from when it is from the brain, at another level. And intuition becomes processed through the heart, not the head (and I do not mean through emotions).


TraineeHuman:
I also agree that what many individuals call "intuition" has nothing to do with the genuine kind of intuition I'm talking about. "Spiritual" intuition sounds fine, if you like. And may I suggest that "the mirror" for your reflections, plus what integrates them together, is none other than what I would call your intuition.

Of course.


switch their reason off, temporarily, and also to go into direct intuitive perception/being

The key word here is "temporarily"

Direct perception, yes, not necessarily intuition, in my book. This is like in 3D seeing, versus realising one is seeing nice trees and a lake.

Love you all anyhow, whatever you are processing for the moment

[TraineeHuman]

Flash, I did say I'm just not interested in debating intellectual positions, and unfortunately it seems your response is with an intellectual position and little else, as far as I understand. Rather, I would be interested in your telling us what you have experienced of "spiritual" intuition, primarily through such things as exercises I have provided in this thread or meditation or any other ways to open up that which lies beyond all reason and all thought. As I said, that's all I'm interested in discussing --plus its implications.

Reason alone will never save anyone, and certainly can't access or explain higher reality at all. Reason is a needed servant of something higher in us (which most people have been dumbed-down about to the point that they don't know about what's higher than reason), but one (advanced, and difficult) part of the spiritual journey is to get the insight that there are also far higher and fuller levels of reality and truth and of "the Force" than anything mental or conceptual (which includes all reason and all thought).

One exercise you might like to try is the feeling the aliveness exercise, described in post #114. This was ingeniously invented by Barry Long, who was Eckhart Tolle's spiritual teacher and also my spiritual teacher for a few years. This exercise is based on, and captures, the essence of Krishnamurti's teaching (which was all about going beyond all thought), plus no doubt slightly influenced by Ramana Maharshi as well. It also directly shows one, temporarily, very precisely what spiritual enlightenment (beyond all thought) is like, if the exercise is carried out properly.

I do happen to have a postgraduate degree and publications in philosophy (and three other degrees). Ever since Kant's main work, The Critique of Pure Reason (plus the critiques by Nietzsche, Kierkegaard and Marx), academic philosophy has been preoccupied with exploring just how hugely limited and impotent pure reason, and therefore also philosophy and science, is. It's often referred to as "the death of philosophy" -- where for "philosophy" you should read "thought, or reason, as king".

One of the problems with reason is that it's based on division as its first and fundamental and unquestioned act (as if that had something to do with the Truth!) before it does anything else. Having cut things up with a sword, it then proceeds to try to glue the pieces back together somehow. But they remain pieces because quite a few pieces are quite incompatible with others now, and it's impossible to remove many of the conflicts and contradictions after such chopping up.

By contrast, "spiritual" intuition always is moving towards direct synthesis and totally unified knowledge. It means always seeing holistically in the truest sense, which involves seeing an indivisible whole.

[Flash]

I litterally cannot believe what I am reading here!

My response is an intellectual position!!!

Right now I am experiencing disappointment (ego based) and dismay.

What a lack of respect for others' experiences!! You ask for us to describe our experiences and when we do, this is the answer we get? !

Why? Because it is not falling in your paradigms? If not, why then?

How will we ever learn from each other EXPERIENCES if we are thrown out and discarted when we mention ours?

I have done all the exercises you are mentioning (truly did most of yours). AND MORE for over 25 years. I went through the thoughtless, and this is not the end of the trip. I do know this.

And I have never studied philosophy as such, apart from readings, starting with Teilhard de Chardin when I was 14, and 4 college courses aons ago, but I did experience some. I am not interested at all in Nietsche or Marx or the big philosophers (althought I could follow their thinking if I would wish). Or in pure reason defined as Kant defined it. Although I do have degrees, and a strong brain/intelligence, since this seems sooo important to you. And such a hindrance sometimes when going through awareness then awakening.

I am glad you had the same trainer as Eckhart Tolle, good for you. But, Who told you I have not been taught a bit? Why would your experience be more genuine than mine??? I still can't believe what you just wrote about my experiences. Ask your teacher maybe!

And i did mentioned that YOUR reason, and MY reason (because the way you present it I have to make it divisive here, for your understanding) is not the same. Maybe a vocabulary problem here???? not the same definition, because not talking about the same levels. Simple ain't it?

HT, get out of your thinking loop (yes, I said your thinking loop) and look at others at face value for god sake.

I said before that everything I wrote up to now on your thread was stemming from my own personal experience, this means everything I wrote was stemming from my own experience. Period. At face value. No books here.

Even if you do not see it, this is what is.

And tell me why this:
By contrast, "spiritual" intuition always is moving towards direct synthesis and totally unified knowledge. It means always seeing holistically in the truest sense, which involves seeing an indivisible whole would not be higher heart energies when intuited or higher reason when with thought (the creation / creative thought) - why couldn't they both be holistic and both work together, unified, receptive and emitive, encompassing all????

I do not understand your reactions.

Now, reread my posts, this is what I experienced, and more, in my lifelong life.

I have strong doubts that you want experiencers here.


Flash, I did say I'm just not interested in debating intellectual positions, and unfortunately it seems your response is with an intellectual position and little else, as far as I understand. Rather, I would be interested in your telling us what you have experienced of "spiritual" intuition, primarily through such things as exercises I have provided in this thread or meditation or any other ways to open up that which lies beyond all reason and all thought. As I said, that's all I'm interested in discussing --plus its implications.

Reason alone will never save anyone, and certainly can't access or explain higher reality at all. Reason is a needed servant of something higher in us (which most people have been dumbed-down about to the point that they don't know about what's higher than reason), but one (advanced, and difficult) part of the spiritual journey is to get the insight that there are also far higher and fuller levels of reality and truth and of "the Force" than anything mental or conceptual (which includes all reason and all thought).

One exercise you might like to try is the feeling the aliveness exercise, described in post #114. This was ingeniously invented by Barry Long, who was Eckhart Tolle's spiritual teacher and also my spiritual teacher for a few years. This exercise is based on, and captures, the essence of Krishnamurti's teaching (which was all about going beyond all thought), plus no doubt slightly influenced by Ramana Maharshi as well. It also directly shows one, temporarily, very precisely what spiritual enlightenment (beyond all thought) is like, if the exercise is carried out properly.

I do happen to have a postgraduate degree and publications in philosophy (and three other degrees). Ever since Kant's main work, The Critique of Pure Reason (plus the critiques by Nietzsche, Kierkegaard and Marx), academic philosophy has been preoccupied with exploring just how hugely limited and impotent pure reason, and therefore also philosophy and science, is. It's often referred to as "the death of philosophy" -- where for "philosophy" you should read "thought, or reason, as king".

One of the problems with reason is that it's based on division as its first and fundamental and unquestioned act (as if that had something to do with the Truth!) before it does anything else. Having cut things up with a sword, it then proceeds to try to glue the pieces back together somehow. But they remain pieces because quite a few pieces are quite incompatible with others now, and it's impossible to remove many of the conflicts and contradictions after such chopping up.

By contrast, "spiritual" intuition always is moving towards direct synthesis and totally unified knowledge. It means always seeing holistically in the truest sense, which involves seeing an indivisible whole.

You make me think of someone who was telling me that I was copy pasting paragraphs on a dating site, while chatting with him, because I type fast for one and because there was real depth in what i was writing (he told me that afterwards, after testing me). Let me tell you, he could not follow lollllll, it did not go far. I was certainly not copy pasting, no more than replicating books or others experiences here.

[Flash]

The paradigm of the non-existence of absolute truth is pretty wide-spread at this moment.
Sam is not the only one who insists on his right to assert that his experiences are less valid than for instance those of J. Krishnamurti.
Egalitarianism is what's behind it. Yet egalitarianism is a false paradigm.
There is no such thing. Not even two grains of rice can be found that are absolutely identical.

People deny the existence of the upward ladder, yet have no problem admitting the existence of a downward scale,
one filled with archons and reptilians.
The self sees itself at the apex of all that is, and has no clue that invisible eyes are watching, ready to assist and show the way. They would never impose, but will help when asked. Asked nicely.

Few are willing to admit that there might be a hierarchy of knowledge out there.
That there is an orderly and rational and logical design behind the world.

Stating that one has experienced such a reality will not produce any curiosity nor inquiry, but instead one is ridiculed, or even attacked.

One example of absolute truth, for those who might give the idea a try:
watching the nigh sky is a good start.

I want to give this post a bump, following my last post. It does say much and it is full of "inspired" "intuited" "knowledge".

The bold is my doing.

Thanks Ulli

[Valley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewFyVq-VMUY

[ulli]

Sorry, TH, if this is off topic, and interference, but since Flash just used my post to boost her position, I feel a need to clarify what appears to be a misunderstanding on her part.

I hope I can be of help and clarify this misunderstanding.

Trainee Human made a request, he wants people to SHARE, not talk "ABOUT".
I can see what he means, and am also aware that you, Flash, need to try a little bit harder to accommodate his wishes.
After all, this is his thread.

If you will only take in what exactly Trainee Human was saying, instead of asserting your own position, and even lecturing him, you will then have a starting ground for a true 'here and now' moment.

I suggest you reflect a bit on what "debate" means, when compared to "sharing".

When people _share_ an experience they are not _talking about_ it.
I know this sounds crazy, but there is a subtle difference.

With sharing there is no competition.
The self is then truly equal to all the other selves in the room.

Then there is no need to be confrontational, nor defensive,
nor is there any need to discuss at all.

I strive to calm my own mind, even though I consider myself a thinker.
But even thinkers need to give the mind a rest, and move beyond thought.

It's like turning off the engine of the car when one is back in the garage.
In fact, not doing so can be deadly.

[Ikarusion]

I went to seminars on angels put on by Dianne Cooper, had healing crystals implanted in my hand by them--well seemed so, as I could feel that happening
so wait, those crystals werent physical then, or how am i supposed to understand your statement?

i ask, because i once pondered on the usefulness of actually having crystals placed in your body, perhaps thin ones under the skin.
i have literally no clue if this would be a good idea or not, though.

a pleasantly well year to you all,
ika

[greybeard]

I went to seminars on angels put on by Dianne Cooper, had healing crystals implanted in my hand by them--well seemed so, as I could feel that happening
so wait, those crystals werent physical then, or how am i supposed to understand your statement?

i ask, because i once pondered on the usefulness of actually having crystals placed in your body, perhaps thin ones under the skin.
i have literally no clue if this would be a good idea or not, though.

a pleasantly well year to you all,
ika

Ika it was probably about 15 years ago and it was one of these "Nothing ventured nothing gained moment"
There was about 200 people there--Dianne claimed she could summon up angels and if any one want healing crystals implanted please stand with you arm out and palms up. I did so not really expecting anything to happen but something seemed to.
It may be that the energy was implanted.
I am a Reiki Master and as such had Reiki symbols implanted.

Crystals have an energy but I am not sure that having anything implanted for real is a good idea.

Hope this helps
With love
Chris

[Flash]

I shared Ulli, I did not talk about. I shared things I never told you on skype or elsewhere. But I will retire from that thread, since the misconceptions are not mine here. I am not asserting a position, I am truly disappointed. I start sharing once in my life on this forum, about inner experiences, and this is the reception i get, even from you Ulli.

And there is no competition. About nobody knows my schooling here, or even the spiritual schools i went to. HT brought his up. So I felt the need to answer. What I saw in his anwer to me was a bunch of positioning as being the philosopher, the students from the school he went to that was the same as Eckart Tolle implying "he knows" and the suggestion to do his proposed exercise that I have done previously from this thread and had done hundreds of times before as well. No kidding, hundreds of times.

As right now I am somewhere else in the experiences, I did not talk bout those one from the exericises above.

I understand your post very well Ulli.

As for the brain, turning off the engine is sometimes difficult with thinkers. I do know this. It is a constant effort for me. Sometimes with results. Certainly with results when living or sharing experiences.

This is fine, I never felt the need to share any of those experiences before here on this forum. Except with those very close to me where I live and where I study with whom I can share, so I don't see why I should start here now.

But I may have some good work to do still with my ego, because these posts truly upsets me, HT and your post

Before I retire, I did listen to Barry Long life story yesterday, I want to thank HT for this really good reference.


Sorry, TH, if this is off topic, and interference, but since Flash just used my post to boost her position, I feel a need to clarify what appears to be a misunderstanding on her part.

I hope I can be of help and clarify this misunderstanding.

Trainee Human made a request, he wants people to SHARE, not talk "ABOUT".
I can see what he means, and am also aware that you, Flash, need to try a little bit harder to accommodate his wishes.
After all, this is his thread.

If you will only take in what exactly Trainee Human was saying, instead of asserting your own position, and even lecturing him, you will then have a starting ground for a true 'here and now' moment.

I suggest you reflect a bit on what "debate" means, when compared to "sharing".

When people _share_ an experience they are not _talking about_ it.
I know this sounds crazy, but there is a subtle difference.

With sharing there is no competition.
The self is then truly equal to all the other selves in the room.

Then there is no need to be confrontational, nor defensive,
nor is there any need to discuss at all.

I strive to calm my own mind, even though I consider myself a thinker.
But even thinkers need to give the mind a rest, and move beyond thought.

It's like turning off the engine of the car when one is back in the garage.
In fact, not doing so can be deadly.

[greybeard]

Thank you for genuine sharing Flash---that takes courage.
With Love
Chris

[TraineeHuman]

IThat's about as much as beginners at meditation are usually taught. The more advanced level teaching in all the traditions is in part that, as I've said in a recent post, the space of "no thoughts" is something called "the intuition" in many traditions. And the intuition, in its fullest and most complete expression, sees that its essence is "Thou art That (the unified Whole)". The more advanced teaching is also that in everyday life we need to master the art of quickly going back and forth between the bliss (i.e., intense love) and peace in which the (fully developed) intuition lives on the one hand, and the ordinary self's reason on the other. It's somewhat analogous to how the AC electricity that gives us electric light works only because of the constant oscillation between, and in a sense the combining of the effects of, two opposite poles. I don't believe anything I've said differs significantly from what all meditation and contemplation traditions claim to be the truth. It's not my own individual opinion, except in the sense that my own individual experience fully confirms what the traditions teach regarding this. Because it's not my own individual opinion, I'm not hugely interested in trying to debate against what the (better and truer parts of) the traditions tell us.

Meanwhile, as of mid-November something extraordinary has happened, and it's become considerably easier to access bliss via our intuition -- though no doubt most of the population are merely experiencing this subliminally and not consciously at all. Alex Collier claims that the quarantine "fence" around the planet was permanently taken down at that time. But whatever the cause or explanation, it's happening. There was also a big energetic change of some kind around late 2012 and for about six months before and two after, because it occurred in progressive stages. But this latest, apparently permanent change feels bigger, to my intuition.

[TraineeHuman]

TH,

Since you talked about beauty in the thread. I'm posting something with English subtitles but I know you'd listen to it "intuitively".

SiIu-COuHKw

I found the intensity of her passion to be quite beautiful. Some types of "passion" are pure ego, but hers isn't that here.

[Guish]

TH,

Since you talked about beauty in the thread. I'm posting something with English subtitles but I know you'd listen to it "intuitively".

SiIu-COuHKw

I found the intensity of her passion to be quite beautiful. Some types of "passion" are pure ego, but hers isn't that here.

I do not know whether you watch football over there. A few years ago, Barcelona were playing a kind of football whereby you could see that they were so good at what they are doing that it gave the impression of no effort being made and there was no need to for a game plan while everything was fluid. It's the same mental state one goes into during meditation or when playing music. We become one with the activity just as the observer becomes the one observed in meditation. If we can have that level of concentration, nothing can stop us.

[TraineeHuman]

I do not know whether you watch football over there. A few years ago, Barcelona were playing a kind of football whereby you could see that they were so good at what they are doing that it gave the impression of no effort being made and there was no need to for a game plan while everything was fluid. It's the same mental state one goes into during meditation or when playing music. We become one with the activity just as the observer becomes the one observed in meditation. If we can have that level of concentration, nothing can stop us.

The activity of watching sports brings up many issues. One issue is that of how can someone in whom a nondual consciousness is strong not be disinterested in what is a celebration of the essence of duality, the essence of certain kinds of desire and conflict, even if intended to be enjoyable and supposedly not violent in a physically or emotionally harmful way? Wouldn't a Divine being equally support both sides, plus the referees as well? Wouldn't such a being therefore quite miss out on most of the thrill of mock-war? Mightn't the Buddha leave at half-time, if not sooner?

Many years ago, I decided it seemed too emotionally immature to barrack for one team but not the other. Up till then I had been in the habit of sometimes watching televised matches of one of the varieties of football that is popular here in Australia. I found it was a different but still interesting kind of experience to equally applaud good play by either side, in that I now appreciated many more good plays because I appreciated them regardless of which side was responsible for them. I soon discovered, though, that everyone else --at least every football fan -- considered this way too weird. I guess I continued to watch, albeit in this more peaceful way, because it seemed to amuse my body-consciousness.

In a recent post I said that detachment involves both the "arrow" of withdrawal and also the "arrow" of some level of involvement. Source is certainly on every being's "side" equally, but not from a totally withdrawn position but by being simultaneously involved in taking part (in its own special way) in every being's particular experience, at all times.

Another thing I discovered years ago was that if I barracked for my team only, if my team lost I would feel rotten, unhappy. And if my team won I would feel OK but it didn't seem to be enough to compensate for the misery I experienced after losses. Also, more careful self-observation revealed that the excitement (being purely egoic) would a few days later turn into prolonged ennui. I came to the conclusion that it was better to always support both sides, and that I had by then outgrown the need to inwardly replay any violent urges I had, and certainly not in this particular way any more. As it says in the Dhammapada and the Upanishads, it's better to sacrifice the inferior source of joy or pleasure in favor of making room for the greater joy or bliss.

Not only that, but anyone who's serious about spiritual liberation will need to go through quite a long if not very, very long period of gradually letting desire go. As one progresses, more and more powerful inner forces are unlocked, and these can therefore potentially be more and more destructive until they are let go of. Freedom means ultimately finding a state of greater and greater equality, from which one will hopefully be able to serve or uplift others more and more effectively.

[Guish]

I'd rather see sports as the art of practising the middle way. In the Gita, it's mentioned that success and failure should be treated the same. This means that someone doesn't get carried away by one's success or one doesn't feel very bad with failure. There are lessons to be learnt from each of them. How does it teach the middle way? You are forced to train and be very calm under very extreme conditions. Imagine hitting a penalty during injury time. I do understand your point of view too but isn't life about pushing limits? I prepare a game for my team by exploiting the weaknesses of the opponents too. My tactics are usually about frustrating opponents and not letting them play. Not so spiritual, you'd say. In the physical world, we have to play the game as we need to be loyal to our wife, the company we work for even if we know a life beyond this. It's a big drama and we play the role. Live the moment but don't get attached to it.

[greybeard]

Gregg Braden quoted a meeting of scientists where they came to the conclusion, unanimously, that competition was not productive ever, that cooperation is the way forward. Accepting that sport may be different but in order to lift everyone’s game some cooperation might be beneficial.

I was a dinghy sailing champion but endeavoured to help others to get the best speed out of their boats.
Not much enjoyment if you win most times by a fair margin.
Many champions write books full of advice.
That action may come from "higher self"

Chris

[TraineeHuman]

Can an enlightened individual, or a spiritually developed individual, legitimately be competitive, or ambitious, or toughly aggressive? I would say yes definitely, but this depends on what the answer is to a different question. That question is: does such behavior ultimately serve the good of the whole (whatever that means in practice)? Is it, in the particular case, ultimately more constructive than destructive -- or maybe neither? Is it "impersonal", in the sense of seeking the good of the whole (even if through individual excellence, admittedly)?

Also, in any sports situation there's an ambiguity present. On the one hand, the game isn't real, and therefore doesn't count (as violence, or hate, or nastiness, or prejudice). Because of this "doesn't count" factor, the situation is potentially therapeutic for both the players and the spectators. It provides a means for the release of stuck negative emotions inwardly without their being seriously enacted in the real world (at least not in the case of the spectators, normally).

Theater plays a similar role. Probably internet discussions can too, as that's all at face value just words. The internet poster's inner intentions can only be guessed at, most of the time, and how the reader takes them will usually no doubt be closer to the reader's interpetration of them than to reality.

The sports match can be helpful because it brings up emotions of hate or aggressiveness or fear and so on that the individual otherwise doesn't realize they have. If that individual manages to observe those emotions and process them, then or later, then I guess that will be serving the good of the whole. After all, the individual has an effect on everyone they come across.

There's a fine line here, though, because barracking "for" or playing "for" a sports team is communal or social egoism pure and simple. I suggest everything depends on one's exercising a strong ability to fully detach from that, at least once the game has reached full time.

[dirmanam]

All the Best ( peace ) to all

[TraineeHuman]

dirmanam, you are already in a beautiful place by being aware. I grew up somewhat consciously living and interacting in other, higher worlds than the physical but of course in the physical world as well. Meanwhile around me, it was considered "normal" to live in the very Fallen state where one experienced only the physical world (plus mental and emotional constructs on the physical). The higher worlds are ever so much a part of reality also, and are part of having greater sanity (for those strong enough), and they are such a necessary part of finding true freedom and liberation. Yes, please do tell us something of your experiences of them. And yes, please don't lose touch with them. And stay aware of the abilities and sensitivities and greatness they opened up in you.

I believe it's absolutely vital to cultivate our awareness of many higher worlds while we have our physical body. This is because in the afterlife it's very, very hard to evolve. That's the true reason why people incarnate in this very difficult physical world. Only by having to struggle or seeing our limitations do we summon up new strength and new abilities we didn't know we had.

What is going on "beyond" right now, you ask? As best as I can tell, a huge cleanup and liberation has recently occurred (around mid-November), bringing a greater opening up to higher wisdom that's now easier for all of us to access.

[dirmanam]

All the Best ( peace ) to all

[TraineeHuman]

I have seen the explosion of an atomic bomb in the horizon
About 20 meter under me I see a traffic cue on a hilly road, american cars,
some people standing, looking towards the bomb

How to view or interpret visions like this is still important for me.
Through what kind of «glass» do I see it ?


Was this a dream? Some people do have premonitions, i.e. accurate "warning" dreams or visions, about the probable future, but it happens much more rarely than most seem to believe. If this was a dream, most likely its meaning was that you needed to face up to a gigantic, groundbreaking change that was taking place in your life at the time. The "atomic bomb" was probably just symbolic.

I happen to have seen some visions of "actual footage" from the distant past of an entire planet being bombed out of existence with gigantic nuclear bombs, and the spin-off impact this had on many intelligent beings in other dimensions. This was shown to me as something that would never be allowed to happen again, and it was shown in the context of discussions about what sorts of qualities (such as "human animal" or gemu"t qualities) need to be emphasized in a civilization to help steer a civilization away from the possibility of nuclear war. The physical world is still something of an experiment, I believe.

I'll respond to the rest of your post in another post, Jarle.

[dirmanam]

All the Best ( peace ) to all

[TraineeHuman]

I am however aware of the translation problem from pictures to words, though words is not always accurate either.
As the Bulgarian magus Michael Aivanhov speaks of the silent speech of intuition as most accurate.

I do not have this true inner voice present, so I know I take a risk by moving in the invisible realm



An inner "voice"? No, I don't agree it's true that the intuition primarily operates by an inner voice. Actually, I'm a little suspicious of anyone who would claim that that's the main way the intuition communicates with them (or with their mind). Actually, I believe the intuition usually prefers to use inner "movies" or symbols or pictures (or even a formless higher side of the intuition, that conveys "feelings" that aren't emotional or astral).

The intuition (in the true sense) is not simply another mental self, competing with or superior to one's personality, and perhaps a little like Freud's "superego". The intuition isn't a mental self; it's something higher than the mental. That''s the whole point. It's silent and seamless.

The intuition reaches right into the Divine, a place where nothing mental can ever go. Then it crosses back into this side of the veil. Amazing.

If the intuition is an "oracle", I would say it's a "silent oracle". What it does is, with total certainty it gives us a (wordless, formless) sense of some truth (that may even be unknowable by any other means). Then we grasp that piece of truth with our intention and we pull it down into the mental. And if our intuition has indeed been well developed and liberated, that piece of truth will usually be accurate if not very accurate, and will give great insight into why we've been stumbling in some area of our lives. The intuition is also that part of us that gives us an undeniable taste that the Divine exists, and from that there arises in us a will to live more in harmony with the Divine.

Perhaps the following story from my own life may clarify a little also. I've often had friends who were professional creative artists of some kind. Such people depend on their intuition for the creation of their works. They would insist that you can't wait for "inspiration" to somehow come, and do nothing until it does. No, you just have to do your best at putting originality and ingenuity into the work at hand. But surely, it seemed to me, when such a work was completed it looked like it was, and therefore no doubt really was, a product of their intuition after all.

[dirmanam]

All the Best ( peace )

[TraineeHuman]

dirmanam, some of the scenes you describe seem to be of cities probably somewhere in the astral. The gigantic, vertically rotating ring of light that others were drawing from certainly sounds like something that would exist in the astral. When I started consciously OBEing every night, one of the first things I noticed was that I was extremely popular in the astral worlds. Everywhere I went in the astral it was like being a movie star. Everyone acted like they knew me, and wanted to be my friend. I eventually came to understand and accept (not so easily!) that dead people and other beings regarded me as being very good-looking and very rich, in their world. It became clear to me that in (middle to higher) astral worlds, light takes the place of both food and money, and maybe of affection as well, and I happened to have a very big light, and found I could easily spare giving a little to anyone nearby.

I don't have as much experience as you do with dragon/reptilian beings, but I'm aware that some species of them are much more positive than the Alpha Draconians, and that some of them seem to play a positive role as protectors or peacekeepers, very prominently, in different parts of the galaxy. I've experienced some very positive dragon creatures that very generously protected me completely against demonic beings and also against Annunaki. I suspect many humans wouldn't have done so in the same situation even if they could have.

On the Earth, all the dinosaur species evolved to possessing intelligence and consciousness millions of years before the humans did, and for some reason you seem to have spent considerable time with them in the astral. The scenes you have seen of them evolving on this planet are presumably from the past, millions of years ago. I wonder whether you can time-travel with any control, in the sense of having some very specific control about seeing scenes from the past or the probable future?

Also, I think that readers might find your thoughts interesting about what kind of war or conflict might be going on in outer space.

I was also wondering about your experience of different dimensions or levels of reality. For instance, I initially learnt astral travel but then started mental travel, which was subtler and more interesting. A considerably higher level again was (Super-)consciousness "travel", by which I mean a state where you are somehow half-merged with any place or being you are visiting or interacting with. It's as if you actually are "over there" as well as "here". Meanwhile at a physical level and an astral level you hover "everywhere" outside of your body. A higher level again, I would say, is one of pure being, where there is absolutely no "travel" at all, and therefore no need for any type of "body" to travel with. The last two seem to have much in common with what professional remote viewers do. So, I was wondering how you actually do remote viewing.

[dirmanam]

All the Best ( peace) to all

[seah]

Recently, my mother, who is in a senior's home, told me that while she slept, what she called a 'crocodile man', took her on a trip and showed her the truth of life [according to said entity]. He showed her many visions, how they are responsible for our creation and how they oversee humanity and the solar system. He told her their species are the most powerful and she used the word 'beautiful', but I don't remember now why that is. She said he showed her many things that she can't put into words.

Needless to say, this lady, is in her late seventies and has never been on a computer, never read any 'conspiracy theories'.

[TraineeHuman]

I don't know much about galactic wars, dirmanam. Joseph Farrell has one video on the subject here: Ga_MlMeXuWo

Or also try something like this: XQ2nUDtX1h0

I do know, though, that at sufficiently higher dimensional levels there is great harmony everywhere, and certainly no war. Christianity and Judaism and Islam were, unfortunately, in many ways primitive peasant religions, originally. (Maybe we should remember that for the first few centuries a bishop was merely a viscopos, i.e. anyone who could read.) The notion that there is a Devil who is almost equal with God and a kind of anti-God is pure fiction. Such a total split at the very core of the universe would make it impossible for the universe to cohere at all.

I'm not convinced that Draco reptilians are necessarily any worse or more warlike than the humans on this planet, who I believe are genetically half-reptilian anyway. And as you and seah say, it seems that dragons get a bad press on Forums like this. Also, the Chinese traditionally regard dragons as very benevolent creatures.

Time as we think of it is an illusion that isn't found at high enough dimensions and also even, it seems, in many parts of the fourth or fifth dimension not connected to places like the Earth. (In this thread I've also said that a truer notion of time would be to see it as pure change, as well as the eternal Now.) This means that in some weird sense other ET species must all really be us, perhaps from the future.

I also know without any doubt that in the big picture the benevolent and harmonious forces are ultimately in charge, so in the end there is nothing to fear. Generally, most paranoia seems to me to be an attempt by people to lay the "blame" for their own victim mentality onto something or someone else than themselves -- instead of getting busy on working on transcending their own ego.

[Guish]

lxFaUIxezkc

Th, another one for you to ease the mood. Look at the lyrics. I'm just a thought.

[dirmanam]

All the Best ( peace ) to all

[TraineeHuman]

The following video seems to give a broad overview of the history of the galaxy:

PR4EapObDmE

[TraineeHuman]

Starting at around 1:16:00 in the following video, Linda Moulton Howe, who is very highly respected for the accuracy of her information and her insights, argues that World War 2 was in a certain way undeniably part of an interdimensional conflict:

9zRFxPlQkDI

She then goes on to suggest the ultimate issues may be to do with humans being important to ETs because what happens to humans after death reveals important information to benign ETs regarding what the soul is and how it works.

[seah]

I do have some questions about the White Brotherhood you mentioned.
Anyone having experience with them ?


dirmanam, my understanding of the WB is that they are the spiritual hierarchy of earth. I'm sure on some level I've had interaction with some members...

[dirmanam]

All the Best ( peace )

[TraineeHuman]

The Sage from Cyprus that I mentioned, said that WB can be called for help. ... Its not clear for me if they are spiritual entities or evolved humans still living..!?
I have tried to make contact with them but despite the effort I have not seen them when I feel I need them, making me conclude ; I dialed the wrong number.. BUT they might be present without my knowing, just giving the small touch of help, you know the kind we give our children, not realize they're given help, building self esteem from within, the building of I ?



If you need help or protection at any time at all, you can call on your own guardian angels -- just say it in your mind. They do many things behind the scenes that will seem like coincidences, but they typically save a person from much embarrassment and bring some degree of healing to one's relationships and situations.

The guardian angels come from higher dimensional levels than the upper fifth (the upper mental), but the upper fifth is where I've encountered the WB as having its headquarters and dwelling place. I used to have a spiritual teacher for 8 years, up until about 10 years ago, who was extremely clairvoyant and intelligent (and I believe I know for a fact that she was a reincarnation of the famous Oracle at Delphi). She eventually became interested in researching the giant light beings who are the guardian angels. She discovered that they come from somewhere beyond all the mental worlds, and that they don't like, for very long, to stay lower than the borderline area between the upper mental and the lowest level of the formless/intuitional worlds -- not unless they have to, to perform some task. But from there they watch over us in the physical.

Once that spiritual teacher began to communicate fluently with people's guardian angels, the GAs kept telling her that they all knew me as one of them, and that I am in human form temporarily, to gather certain experience and information. Partly for that and related reasons, I'm very confident that the GAs are different from the WB as I've experienced it (even though many GAs usually look like bright white lights). It certainly also seems clear that the GAs are in charge of the afterlife of humans: they are the local council, the guides, the police and judges, the employment agents, the administrators of the health services, and so on -- all combined in one. It hasn't happened recently, but at many times in my life I've had dead people (several times even thousands of them) expecting and totally trusting me to perform the functions of a GA, and they were apparently unaware that I'm currently in physical human form.

[TraineeHuman]

The Who is visiting Who question seem central for me.. asking someone to leave the room is not polite if its their room ??


Why is this question so central for you?

If you manage to be aware that some being is occupying an astral version of your room, then you have at least some right to require them to leave because it's your room. They may consider it's totally OK for them to "squat" in your room as long as you don't know that they're there, but once you do, the rules change significantly. There are many different kinds of reasons why either a dead human or an astral non-human may be occupying such a space, and some dead humans can be almost impossible to get rid of. But I don't agree that it's ever impolite for you to let them know that you'd prefer them to vacate the room because you consider it's yours. Also, if they're an earthbound human then you may be able to do them a huge favor by helping them to move to a higher astral level (by telling them to go to the golden Divine light, or even by creating such light).

[dirmanam]

All the Best ( peace ) to all

[dirmanam]

All the Best ( peace ) to all

[TraineeHuman]

Most of my animal visions has been of spiders, and they might not classify as insects.
I would really appreciate if other could share their experiences with them to me personally or here?

I do not know on which « level» this visions occur. It has been palpable to me.
Some has been connected to Japanese or Chinese symbols, as occurring at the same time,
giving me the impression that these ETs, this race ( as I believe is the force behind the spider-expression)
has an affinity towards people from the East.
I have also seen, as small men gestalts are « liberated from the spider body, they get weak, and has created a clear balloon
to enter. Inside this ballon a universe opens up, birds are present,space, buildings etc..

As you asked for experiences TH I followed up with this.. Pardon for my philosophical tour but I am
trying to imply a Connection for Man and Ets, via Insects, A definitely vital part for our existence on Earth.

Some of the things one may see in the astral world are whatever picture you create, or whatever you are drawn to seeing. The Law of Attraction isn't always valid in the physical, but is considerably more valid in the astral and higher worlds. Leaving that aside, here are some comments about spiders.

The general spider shape is a common one among lifeforms in the physical as well as the astral. The shape of a human hand, for example, or of the major end of a human nerve cell.

Miles Johnston of The Bases Project claims that some number of years ago he became aware of spider-shaped electronic lifeforms which are hostile alien AI and which began invading TV transmissions to the public. Miles undoubtedly sees Harald Kautz-Vella's research such as summarized here: O7zvan4sTjc as a further probing into what this phenomenon is and how it works.

On the other hand, I have experienced a benign being in the astral very well known to some of the American Indians and to the Tibetans as Iktomi. Iktomi is preoccupied with doing constructive things: advanced psychic healing, and the support of major projects which achieve something worthwhile and involve some group of people. I happen to know that the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama and their Tibetan associates continually make use of Iktomi's assistance. Also, I understand that tobacco was invented by the Iriquois Indians under Iktomi's inspitration and guidance. If you want Iktomi to visit you during the night, you must have total darkness, no hint of light at all, in your bedroom, plus a pouch full of fresh tobacco which you offer to Iktomi. If she comes, she "eats" the life-force in the tobacco at an astral level.

I believe Iktomi will only visit someone who is engaged in a benevolent project that involves a group of maybe ten or more people. Around 18 years ago I was involved in such a project, and Iktomi visited me frequently at night for over a year or more. She looks like a huge black spider in the astral, about two meters long, but doesn't look threatening. Occasionally she would do some psychic healing, for which she would first create a huge, thick web in the astral, and all over my ceiling, made of golden strands several inches thick. She had the lightest, most pleasant touch imaginable.

[dirmanam]

All the best ( peace ) to All

[Deega]

I don't know if this video has been in this Tread?, if not, enjoy!


UjPllnlJfAU

[dirmanam]

All the Best ( peace) to all

[TraineeHuman]

If there are "visions" that repeat over and over again for you, dirmanam, then I suggest you should try to ask and find out why you keep visiting the same places and why you re-enact the same or similar scenes. You can always interrupt the "movie" to ask for answers to your questions. What issues within yourself (maybe from some past lifetimes?), do you suppose, are you trying to resolve by visiting these places again and again? What happened to you there, or what are you learning about there? Why can't you move on to new experiences -- if indeed you can't move on? If you're being taught something there, what is it, and who is doing the teaching?

Knowing yourself involves having the courage and bigness to genuinely stand aside from all your conditioning and your opinions and preferences. The same is what is required for a person to be able to remote view accurately. You say you can do remote viewing easily, so I suggest that should give you a huge head start at successfully coming to know yourself deeply -- which I consider is a huge part of what human life is all about. I suggest you can think of all the "visions" you see as small reflections of the mystery of who you truly are.

While I'm on the subject, I don't agree that it's a good idea to judge another person. You can judge what some of their behavior apparently was like in the past; but to judge them in the present is to substitute your opinion for reality. Unless it's clear they're being very abusive. Your opinion may always be wrong. All the more likely to be so if your opinion is based only on words (or an absence of words) on a screen that you read without meeting the person.

For myself, I don't normally find it interesting to visit alien civilizations or even bases in the physical or astral worlds the way you apparently do. I would suggest that you could meditate and raise your "level" of consciousness before you go traveling. I have usually been more interested in exploring the formless realms or even the Divine (or universal) realms. These can, but usually don't, contain any pictures or definite shapes. It's very hard to explain or describe the formless realities because language as people know it is very much form-based. And talking about "blobs" or "locationless points" or something doesn't help much either. Many others typically see bright (presumably "fuzzy-edged") lights in the formless realms, but I seem to "feel" more often rather than see, so I don't seem to usually have any experience of color in those realms either. Different levels of higher realms do seem to each have their own distinctive sound -- you mentioned a sound like crickets, which belongs to one such level. However, again, I personally seem to tune out regarding the sounds also. Also, the formless realms have various infinite features, but that's hard to begin to describe to anyone who maybe hasn't knowingly experienced reality outside the "box" of finiteness.

Admittedly, too much awareness of higher worlds can make one's life less balanced, and lead to one's having a weaker inner child than usual. That problem can be overcome through doing sufficient inner work on developing one's inner child, but it can take years. That's something I had to go through as a result of being too fascinated with higher realms in themselves rather than bringing the bliss down into everyday life in the physical world, where the inner child lives.

On the other hand, practically all the indigenous cultures say we are living within the Earth consciousness's "dream" or "dream way". By calling it a "dream" they are emphasizing that we are living in the astral and mental as well as the physical -- even though most Westerners are blind to what is happening in the astral or mental per se at any time, except when they're asleep or dead. Not only that, but since the Earth is a Divine being -- one of the greatest benevolent gods in the galaxy, as far as I understand --, the Earth's consciousness involves the full integration of all levels of reality from the Divine down to the physical. As I've mentioned in this thread, one's experience of "What is Source?" varies greatly depending on how far (if at all) one has integrated Source with planes lower than those of Source. This means that to experience the Earth's consciousness in the same way that the Earth experiences it would be to have the fullest and deepest experience of Source as well as of the Earth at the same time.

[dirmanam]

All the Best ( Peace ) to all

[TraineeHuman]

I'd like to throw a little bit of light on how the breath fits into meditation. In post #283 http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-The-Higher-Self-and-transcendent-experienec-including-OBEs&p=628399&viewfull=1#post628399 I described the practice of watching one's breath, as in my experience that practice (well, about equally with mantra meditation and also with t'ai chi) seems to be the easiest form of meditation for Westerners to learn.

In the practice of watching the breath, it's important not to manipulate your breath in any way. You're really exercising your consciousness, not your breath. It's also, however, true that there are meditation techniques such as pranayama which do involve manipulation of the breath.

With techniques that do manipulate the breath, the end goal is still that eventually one will gain awareness of more than the breath, and of something more subtle -- in fact, that one will gain awareness of consciousness. In Indian traditions they speak of prana, and in Chinese traditions, of chi or qi. There is actually a whole ocean of prana existing all around us all the time. The goal is to become aware of it, eventually all the time, ideally. Eventually we become aware that we can interact with this ocean, and direct it locally somewhat, by using our will. We also eventually become "tangibly" aware that this ocean contains great energy or power, and once we're aware of that, that that greater power tends to become available to us. We also become aware that we can "tune in" to that ocean at any time, and to do so is blissful. That at a subtle level the world is actually made out of "love" (bliss). Probably all the bonds within atoms and molecules are bonds of love, I have no doubt.

The "force" or energy of that ocean is what initially takes us into higher and higher planes or dimensions of reality.

[seah]

dirmanam, I'm not sure why you decided to retire but if it was because you thought the material you shared was not of interest to us, you were wrong. Not many saw it here in this thread, alone. It's unfortunate you didn't start a new thread with your adventures in other dimensions. The thing is, it doesn't matter how many people respond to a post, the important thing is that we put it out there. While you were here, you were audacious...how do you retire from that?

[TraineeHuman]

There has been mention on this Forum and elsewhere of such things as "soul-catchers" and the supposed capturing or even destruction of "souls", and so on. I'd like to discuss just some of the concepts that are relevant to this, and relevant to the question of what a "soul" is anyway.

Let's start at the very beginning. Basically, the word "soul" usually just means "individual". "Your soul" is simply whatever it is that gives you your individuality. I know, you're brought up to think that your individuality is simply all of "you" as an isolated, discrete person, and being . But that's simply not the case. It's wrong.

Why is it wrong? Well, notice that individuality is itself something that, strictly speaking, just doesn't make sense without universality. For instance, wherever you go and whatever you do as an individual, you always have the rest of the universe inseparably "glued" onto you, so to speak (or vice-versa). You can never ever shake it off, at all, not even a tiny bit. So, you don't need to have had any profound or ultimate spiritual experiences at all in order to understand, intellectually at least, that pure individuality is just an illusion anyway -- because there is never, ever any pure individuality without universality being present and moreover it being inseparable from the individuality. You can't ever fully isolate yourself and put the entire rest of the universe "out there", at all. Reality just isn't "built" that way. We are far, far vaster than we're brought up to think. Talk about the desperate need to reclaim our sovereignty and our greatness! The one common factor in all your experiences is you.

Notice that I'm not saying that individuality doesn't exist, either (once universality is also present), or that individuality isn't important. Actually, the universe needs individuality almost as much as the individual needs the universe -- again, not that an individual can ever exist without being inseparably embedded in the entire universe anyway, as I've explained.

The question is, can we at some stage become fully, truly aware of our universality -- our (ultimate) infiniteness and more? If we can become aware of that vividly and fully enough, then simply through that awareness our soul will ultimately become consciously universal. At such a point, our soul will finally transcend any dichotomy, any perceived disharmony, between being an individual and being universal. How would we then live as a universal being? Well, we need to transform ourselves. We would need to be able to conceive all things, love all beings, constantly be a physical incarnation of unity and harmony in sync with the Force and in touch with Oneness. And for us the Oneness would not in any way conflict with or impede the existence of manyness as well.

All the talk about "soul-catching" or "soul destruction", then, is to do with the notion that supposedly we can totally and utterly and permanently "lose" all traces of our individuality, usually at some point in the afterlife, and in some very nihilistic and very fear-mongered manner. ("Who is it that does the losing?" we might ask here, I suggest.) "The soul" is here conceived of as being some kind of physical or magnetic thing, like some suitcase or magnetic field -- without any explanation at all of how that which is the very antithesis of the physical body comes to be considered to be a physical or quasi-physical body after all. And it is very much conceived of here as being totally separable from and isolated from "the rest of the universe". I've already tried to explain why such separation is nonsense -- it doesn't even make coherent sense! I would want to suggest that the soul is so powerful it can even powerfully restrict itself and delude itself that it's just a passive suitcase or whatever.

But suppose we may under certain unfortunate circumstances happen to lose all consciousness of ourselves, or at any rate come to have no more consciousness than, say, a rock. After all, Nature, and even Source, does have a huge aspect of going into profound rest. Even then, consider how great the intelligence and sophistication of Nature and of the subconscious is. Where does it come from, in the apparent absence of individual consciousness in a rock, for example? Notice that the "soul destruction" school necessarily have no answer to this question. There is still a kind of universal, highly intelligent soul there, even if it may mainly be the same for, say, all rocks rather than strongly differentiated into individual rocks.

About 5 or 10 percent of human beings do get reborn before they've managed to get rid of their current astral body or "sheath" in the afterlife. Yes, that's not good for them, and yes, it certainly means that after death they didn't manage to directly identify themselves with their Higher Mind (where one's individuality is anchored and based and preserved intact) in every way 100%. The latter isn't possible to do (totally) anyway, unless one has first gotten rid of one's mental sheath as well -- which not so many manage to do, unfortunately. But phenomena such as these, and various others I could mention, certainly don't mean that one has been totally wiped out as an individual, and therefore as a soul. Various individuals, particularly from Western esoteric traditions, wrongly assume or believe that such a wiping out does occur, but I hope I've at least sketched out some of the reasons why their knowledge is partial, and mistaken. By the way, the Higher Mind is always original. That's what truly living in the Now involves. You may notice you rarely do anything that's truly original -- except during an act of kindness or delight, probably.

Another example among many of an issue that's relevant here and that can produce misunderstanding is the philosopher David Hume's story about a sock. That sock got patched up more and more, until one day none of the original material of the sock was left, and it was all patches. The question to ask is: is it still the same sock at that point? And what if we somehow managed to gather up all the original fabric of the sock and by some miracle of invisible mending we managed to reconstruct the original sock. Would that now be the real sock instead? Or, would the original sock have been lost? And if so, at what point can we say that the original sock "died" forever? And would that matter very much anyway, except if someone is for some reason very attached to that particular old smelly sock? Ideally you will indeed change your "sock", your "soul" greatly, so that by your efforts in this lifetime you ("it") will transform into something very different than what you started with -- the "patches" won't just be stopgap and makeshift, but will include huge improvements, upgrades.

Again, the truth is, you are quite separate from your personality, which is made up of the astral and mental sheaths. (Can you negate, temporarily, from all your opinions and expectations and beliefs and likes and dislikes? Actually that puts you into your Superconsciousness, but a small step down from that is your Higher Mind. This sees and understands all points of view, but still has some strong opinions of its own.) Ideally you should separate from your personality at the time of death, and the mental body does live on usually for a number of centuries or millenia, regardless. (I wonder whether the notion of "zombies" first came from all the astral/mental zombies of the "sleeping" personalities of all those dead people, from lifetime after lifetime.) The personality eventually attaches to animals, then plants, then mineral lifeforms as it slowly burns up and very, very slowly fragments. Certain unwholesome beings in the astral, or the bad type of ETs such as small greys, do manipulate or adopt or enslave or use personalities. But again, you are not a personality, at all. And after death your personality will eventually become refuse, so to speak. That is the only thing that can get "captured" and so on.

Can you tell the difference between you and your personality -- that's the big question. Can you even know who you truly are? Can you separate from your personality, and thereby master it, and do so before you get to the afterlife?

[seah]

Hi TH, I respect that you can say with total assurance that there are no agendas to "capture" souls in the non physical worlds, but I simply don't feel the same. For one thing, I've realized as my level of awareness has grown that certainty is relative to where I happen to be, evolutionarily speaking. So that there has already been a handful of times when I felt certain of something which when my awareness expanded, proved to be, well, no longer true, because I possessed a deeper level of understanding.

I try to stay away from phrasing any knowledge I've acquired this far in the context of it applying to humanity as a whole. I hope I convey that well enough because it is always in the back of my mind, that we all carry a wide range of genetics and as much as the the new age folks would like us all to believe 'we are one' this is a simplified meme that is far from the truth. We are not all the same.

As much as you feel your soul is never in harms way, this can not be said for all souls, in my experience. As well, due to the numerous terminology for souls and energy bodies in use at the this time, we are not even talking about the same things, most times.

I continue to learn new things on a weekly basis on this path I am on. What I used to believe the soul was ten years ago no longer applies because of new experiences that have come my way. There is profound joy in this state of being for me, I am becoming...and it is the ride that is paramount to me not the destination. Enlightenment is a rather peculiar notion to me now, but all have to find what suits them best.

[Ikarusion]

in understand "we are all one" as for example all countries etc. make up the whole planet, once you zoom out and look at the whole.
when you look at your tv, not all parts in it are the same, but together they can be seen as one, the whole tv.
besides physically being built out of a mixture of the same known elements, separation usually vanishes if you zoom out far enough.

[TraineeHuman]

The Higher Mind is what lies immediately beyond the mental, the world of concepts and thoughts and pictures and symbols and languages. I've come to realize that one of the best ways to understand what lies beyond the mental could begin if I talk about the very essence of what the mental is and how it works. Notice, though, that only your direct experience of what lies beyond the mental will take you there. At the very least, though, I can begin to describe where you're absolutely not going if you're going beyond the mental.

The philosopher Kant caused probably the biggest shock and ideological revolution in the entire history of Western philosophy when he made it irrefutably and absolutely clear to everyone that we never experience things in themselves; and, secondly, that the whole essence of how the conceptual or thinking mind works is to every moment ceaselessly pretend that the things it's dealing with are the very things in themselves. The thinking mind can't act, can't take a single step, so to speak, without fully immersing itself into something that's altogether quite fictitious.

The thinking mind is a certain limited form of consciousness. Probably its biggest flaw is that can't ever, ever act without cutting everything into pieces. In reality, everything is the same, everything is one, an indivisible whole. But the thinking mind pretends that it can totally ignore the fact that absolutely all the things it deals with are aspects of the whole. The thinking mind continually shoots itself in the foot. It distorts its perceptions more and more by cutting up and dividing all things, and then even treating what it's left with as if they were wholes.

Kant's discovery created a burning question in the world of philosophy. Namely, if the thinking mind can't gives us or lead us to reality, then what is the difference between appearance and reality? And how can we know it? Which is the appearance and what the reality? This question is also fully relevant to any discussion regarding holographic simulations of reality.

In a future post I'll continue with this consideration. But my main focus is to clarify how you can know you're consciously, or unwittingly, using your Higher Mind. Notice that from the above we already know that this happens whenever you stop cutting everything up, and also whenever you experience the bliss of oneness (which is basically the same as (non-artificial) bliss), or of selfless giving or sharing.

[TraineeHuman]

In my previous post I was saying how thought, or the ordinary mind, ignores the existence of oneness, of the indivisible whole. Many of us have been so hypnotized, so misled by the ordinary mind and the education system and our parents, and by a bewitchment with measuring (the basis of science), that we can't or won't experience the oneness. If we practice meditation, though, at a certain level of advancement in meditation one does experience the oneness directly and vividly and as altogether undeniably real. The sense of it deepens in us, subliminally at first.

Another way we can move towards the recovery of having an awareness of the oneness (and of "the Force") is if we deliberately practise looking, in a total and intense way, much more wholistically. Notice I said "looking", as distinct from "thinking". I'd very seriously like to recommend this as an ongoing exercise.

The ordinary thinking mind has to flat out deny the oneness, because otherwise it can't play its game of pretending it cuts out and grasps each thing in itself, and then conceiving or perceiving or sensating or fantasizing about its cutout toy. The thinking mind is all about being possessive, and in a variety of ways. Beyond the act of grasping, of playing at possessiveness, it's out of its depth and becomes helpless.

The ordinary mind can't consider the infinite or the truly whole to be real. Such things are part of The Unknowable -- unknowable to the ordinary mind, that is.

The (ordinary) mind is the apple that makes human beings fall out of paradise, out of oneness, into a world of ignorance and possessiveness. It's a good servant. You couldn't read this without its help. But our civilization is fallen precisely because it insists on putting the mind in the position of being the master, and making us slaves to it.

[Guish]

Th, when you say looking in an intense way, you mean to get fully absorbed in the event and be devoid of thoughts?

[TraineeHuman]

Th, when you say looking in an intense way, you mean to get fully absorbed in the event and be devoid of thoughts?

I should have mentioned that there's a long transition out of having one's mind trapped so much in the false version of "the world" or "the universe" or "the self" that's created by the thinking mind. The transition is from having "the world" created by your thinking mind replaced. It's replaced by an "emptiness" that's not really total emptiness but it's a perception of reality that comes entirely out of and through the intuition -- which has an altogether different kind of movement. At first the higher "messages" will get mixed up with the thinking mind's activities, other than by their being extremely joyful and inspiring.

Thoughts don't stop going on (even though yes, during meditation the experienced meditator will successfully keep concentrating on something else than thoughts). So, "devoid of thoughts" is fine during meditation, but I'm talking about everyday life. Before enlightenment you chop wood. After enlightenment you still chop wood.

I hate to use the word "channel" because almost all public chanellers (except a handful of the top RVers, it seems) seem to be frauds and hypocrites and deluded. But you truly do need to gradually and genuinely turn into a "mere" "channel" through which the intuition now flows. The thoughts and everything you do and are should then come straight out of a "nothing" rather than out of any thinking mind. Ultimately, everything you do should come to be governed by a kind of higher "instinct", for lack of a better word.

The ordinary mind's knowledge is always very partial. The Supermind actually can do everything the thinking mind does, but in a different and superior way. The Supermind uses something quite different from thoughts, though, something more holistic, to arrive at its kniowledge. It still then also makes use of thoughts -- just like it makes use of the physical and the emotional. It's not "devoid of" thoughts any more than it's devoid of usiing physicality or emotionality.

[Guish]

Th, when you say looking in an intense way, you mean to get fully absorbed in the event and be devoid of thoughts?

I should have mentioned that there's a long transition out of having one's mind trapped so much in the false version of "the world" or "the universe" or "the self" that's created by the thinking mind. The transition is from having "the world" created by your thinking mind replaced. It's replaced by an "emptiness" that's not really total emptiness but it's a perception of reality that comes entirely out of and through the intuition -- which has an altogether different kind of movement. At first the higher "messages" will get mixed up with the thinking mind's activities, other than by their being extremely joyful and inspiring.

Thoughts don't stop going on (even though yes, during meditation the experienced meditator will successfully keep concentrating on something else than thoughts). So, "devoid of thoughts" is fine during meditation, but I'm talking about everyday life. Before enlightenment you chop wood. After enlightenment you still chop wood.

I hate to use the word "channel" because almost all public chanellers (except a handful of the top RVers, it seems) seem to be frauds and hypocrites and deluded. But you truly do need to gradually and genuinely turn into a "mere" "channel" through which the intuition now flows. The thoughts and everything you do and are should then come straight out of a "nothing" rather than out of any thinking mind. Ultimately, everything you do should come to be governed by a kind of higher "instinct", for lack of a better word.

The ordinary mind's knowledge is always very partial. The Supermind actually can do everything the thinking mind does, but in a different and superior way. The Supermind uses something quite different from thoughts, though, something more holistic, to arrive at its kniowledge. It still then also makes use of thoughts -- just like it makes use of the physical and the emotional. It's not "devoid of" thoughts any more than it's devoid of usiing physicality or emotionality.

This is a very good description and comes close to my experiences as well. I'd just add that actions occur with great ease when we do not rely on the thinking mind and the super mind operates. When I meditate consistently, I notice that I'm suddenly able to not feel stress/pressure as the ego no longer corrupts the experiences. As one no longer gives so much importance to the low self, no one is affected and the focus is on doing something greater. The beautiful thing is that there's no need to prove or an urge to do great. It's spontaneous and seems very natural.

[TraineeHuman]

In a recent post I've mentioned how the individual and the universal don't seem to make their fullest sense unless they are joined to each other, intertwined, and inseparably so.

The universal is really the same thing as the Divine. Therefore -- surprise! -- we always, always have the Divine with us and a part of us -- because as long as we have a body we clearly do have individuality, and true individuality is ultimately inseparable from universality. How wonderful. Most people constantly and altogether deny their universality, though -- and that's a huge problem.

Unfortunately, this is because after the age of around eight months we learn (we get constantly taught, by example, from our parents) to deny it. Actually, as an infant we continue to sometimes have the beautiful feeling of Nature inside us (which seems to be all inside our body), which does still connect us to our universality, no less. I suggest that's the reason why young children are so beautiful.

We also have most unfortunately been taught at a young age, though, that we have the right to be unhappy, and with each outburst of unhappiness we cut off more fully from beautiful Nature, not to mention from universality. Once the parents have taught their child that it's "normal" to be unhappy and that unhappiness is unavoidable and a very frequent occurrence, a big part of the battle has already been lost. The child has supposedly now learnt that "to be" means "to be attached", which one can only do by supposedly being an individual without, supposedly, any connection to the universal. The only way out of Ariadne's maze now is to at some time learn more and more to "be nothing" in the right ways.

The universal gets fragmented and hence supposedly made "finite" by attachments, and then our attachments become precisely what cuts us off from consciously experiencing our universality. Sell your birthright for a potful of lentils? In adulthood the attachments continue even further -- to career, to family, to whatever we consider we like most or hate most. But the strongest attachments normally remain those formed in early childhood to our parents, plus attachment to our spouse/partner and maybe other romantic partners from the past, and to our children. Love and friendship and family are wonderful things, but we are taught to experience them wrongly by allowing them to cut us off more deeply from our universality, when by rights we should be using them to do the opposite. Modern society, and Western civilization, with an education system that among other things teaches us to get fixed in like and dislikes, have no doubt been deliberately designed to induce us to compromise ourselves to our attachments and close relationships, and to career and money. Any rare individual who has broken free of the hold of such attachment will, paradoxically, be able to perform any job etc and still not lose touch with bliss, most of the time.

Unfortunately, the particular type of individuality it's considered normal to identify with in our society is that who/what you are is nothing more than your emotional likes and dislikes -- and that to threaten their survival is to threaten the survival of "you", no less.

Whether "you" like it or not, though, the universal, which is super-likeable but uncapturable, is always there. And in the afterlife, the likes and dislikes will get stripped away.

[Guish]

It's funny how perception creates the illusion. So much time is spent arguing about what's great or not, what's right or not? People fight because of such things.

[TraineeHuman]

It's funny how perception creates the illusion. So much time is spent arguing about what's great or not, what's right or not? People fight because of such things.

Yes. “Perception creates the illusion,” and what initiates or creates illusory perception is the limited thinking mind. What's important is experience, not words. Words are only useful if they help someone to have the right experiences, and to integrate them practically into the fabric of their lives.

The exercise of feeling the aliveness (post #114) http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-The-Higher-Self-and-transcendent-experience-including-OBEs&p=606494&viewfull=1#post606494 puts one temporarily into feeling the universal, the Divine -- which we're all already familiar with, as it turns out. This, when experienced fully or intensely, is the same thing as enlightenment, only enlightenment means being able to access the practical essence of this state continuously, or almost continuously.

Everything finite is only a fragment of something infinite. Time and space are only possible because of the prior existence of timelessness and spacelessness. Limited minds are only possible because a universal consciousness exists. The thinking mind comes to discover its own limitations, and so Nature ultimately leads it to search for something higher than itself and all its perceptions.

But also, the Divine is already present within all that is limited. The only trouble is, it's veiled to most of us. This is what David Bohm (building on some of Krishnamurti's insights) called "the implicate order". Simply find a pathless way to unwind Ariadne's thread, and that will reveal the true unlimited underlying order. Finding and making practical that implicate order while at the same time living in the explicate order -- that was the ultimate in spirituality and in understanding, for both Krishnamurti and Bohm.

[Guish]

Everything finite is only a fragment of something infinite.



I was helping a student with his essay on Fractals and occurrence of Mathematics in nature. I gave the following example. A piece of wood has an infinite number of points on it and yet has a finite weight and length. Between every finite number is an irrational number which is infinite. There are some infinities greater than other infinities. Cantor who worked on this ended in an Asylum as he was ahead of time. He said that a voice in his mind told him about infinity and he was trying to understand god all that time.

[TraineeHuman]

As William Blake put it in his 'Auguries of Innocence':

"To see a World in a grain of sand,
And a Heaven in a wild flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand,
And Eternity in an hour.…

...

Joy and woe are woven fine,
A clothing for the soul divine;
Under every grief and pine
Runs a joy with silken twine.…

Every tear from every eye
Becomes a babe in Eternity.…

The bleat, the bark, bellow, and roar
Are waves that beat on Heaven’s shore.…

He who doubts from what he sees
Will ne’er believe, do what you please.
If the Sun and Moon should doubt,
They’d immediately go out.…

God appears, and God is Light,
To those poor souls who dwell in Night;
But does a Human Form display
To those who dwell in realms of Day."

[TraineeHuman]

Given that our individuality and our universality are inseparable from each other (as I've tried to explain), the following question immediately comes up. Why (in recent millenia) do only rare individuals ever get to experience that universality -- in the course of a physical lifetime?

Part of the answer is that that universality lies well beyond anything that we can experience through the physical senses. Even though admittedly it can be interwoven with and even elicited by physical sense experiences, such as Blake's "seeing Heaven" in a wildflower. Unfortunately, most of the time, for most of us at least, our physical senses apparently (rather than actually) force our attention to be focused on the limited and finite, and not on the universal; on the many, and not also on the One; on pleasure and pain, and not at all on bliss and peace. Because, for instance, our eyes never see the entire physical universe, but always only a limited part of it. As I see it, this is the benefit of partially switching off the physical senses, which most forms of meditation do. And in my experience physical forms of meditation (t'ai chi, qi gong, hatha yoga, tantra) all "switch on" something transcendental to the physical in addition to carrying out some kind of physical activity.

The physical senses aren't the only deceivers (and not that I'm in any way advocating asceticism or self-flagellation or failure to honor the body's wisdom and its needs). Another contributor is our habit of allowing ourselves to be dominated by a superficial and imperfect consciousness. And our switching off from or denying a much more profound, holistic consciousness, that comes from deep within us. That more profound and vaster consciousness takes delight in all experiences. It always sees and is preoccupied with the positive side of all experiences, whatever they may be -- and yet it isn't naive or gullible.

[TraineeHuman]

What does it mean to be living in and with a universal consciousness, at least temporarily, or in sublime moments? Or even regularly? This is a fascinating and beautiful question. But it's also as broad and deep as the universe, so to speak.

I'd like to offer some observations related to my own experience, regarding making it become practical in one's life. There are also some things I don't want to describe, because it's something we all need to individually (begin to) discover and experience for ourselves.

One huge area of difficulty and misunderstanding is the long transition from renouncing or negating or outgrowing the ego on the one hand, and living in the full universal consciousness on the other. In this in-between situation one may in all kinds of ways, large or small, be disengaged from "normal" society and from other individuals and their lives and sufferings. Both U.G. Krishnamurti and Eckhart Tolle spent something like two years living as homeless hermits, for example -- begging for all their food and sleeping on park benches or in other public places. I suspect that for that period they would have been in this in-between land. In their case, for that period they experienced an almost total personal rejection of Western civilization and of social relationships. But I suggest they couldn't have been fully or properly in touch with the universal consciousness, not continually and not deeply and fully. Because, as the Buddhists say, anyone who is is immersed in a sea of infinite compassion for others, and in expressing that in some way or other. This transition period can last much longer than two years.

The universal consciousness is something one enters gradually, one stage at a time. At first one needs to somehow, in spirit, successfully disconnect from the insanity of our society that passes for normal. Next, one needs to gradually learn to stop discriminating between individuals on the basis of personal like and dislike (i.e., to stop being a respecter of persons); one needs to be detached from any identification of oneself with "one's feelings", yet be altruistically motivated. That altruism will still at first sometimes be egoic -- i.e., one feels proud and satisfied about doing good and having a positive influence. Next, we need to have such a strong sense and perception of our unity with each individual that we have true empathy for everyone we meet, and we act without personal motive. And even at that point we will only be beginning to enter into universal consciousness. After all, universal consciousness means no personal identification with what we experience, no attachment to narrow our consciousness down.

In another post I'll say more about what is practically involved in opening up to the universal consciousness within each of us.

[Guish]

What does it mean to be living in and with a universal consciousness, at least temporarily, or in sublime moments? Or even regularly? This is a fascinating and beautiful question. But it's also as broad and deep as the universe, so to speak.

I'd like to offer some observations related to my own experience, regarding making it become practical in one's life. There are also some things I don't want to describe, because it's something we all need to individually (begin to) discover and experience for ourselves.

One huge area of difficulty and misunderstanding is the long transition from renouncing or negating or outgrowing the ego on the one hand, and living in the full universal consciousness on the other. In this in-between situation one may in all kinds of ways, large or small, be disengaged from "normal" society and from other individuals and their lives and sufferings. Both U.G. Krishnamurti and Eckhart Tolle spent something like two years living as homeless hermits, for example. I suspect that for that period they would have been in this in-between land. In their case, for that period they experienced an almost total personal rejection of Western civilization and of social relationships. But I suggest they couldn't have been fully or properly in touch with the universal consciousness, not continually and not deeply and fully. Because, as the Buddhists say, anyone who is is immersed in a sea of infinite compassion for others, and in expressing that in some way or other. This transition period can last much longer than two years.

The universal consciousness is something one enters gradually, one stage at a time. At first one needs to somehow, in spirit, successfully disconnect from the insanity of our society that passes for normal. Next, one needs to gradually learn to stop discriminating between individuals on the basis of personal like and dislike (i.e., to stop being a respecter of persons); one needs to be detached from any identification of oneself with "one's feelings", yet be altruistically motivated. That altruism will still at first sometimes be egoic -- i.e., one feels proud and satisfied about doing good and having a positive influence. Next, we need to have such a strong sense and perception of our unity with each individual that we have true empathy for everyone we meet, and we act without personal motive. And even at that point we will only be beginning to enter into universal consciousness. After all, universal consciousness means no personal identification with what we experience, no attachment to narrow our consciousness down.

In another post I'll say more about what is practically involved in opening up to the universal consciousness within each of us.

Interesting, TH. you sum it quite well. One becomes less reactive and more calm in everything one does. In zen, we say that the effort becomes effortless.

[greybeard]

Adyashanti had an awakening but felt it was not complete---years later there was a completion--though I suspect that complete is always relative.

The late Dr David Hawkins spent many years in virtual solitude after the "event," for after a period of time it was no longer possible to function in a normal way, so he left the city for Sedona--he said each level seems complete.
He implied that eventually he reached the highest level of Enlightenment possible in the human body.
He said that only God walks through the final door.
I don't have an opinion on this and other of his statements--however his books are the most detailed I have read on the subject of enlightenment.
At first Eckhart tried to carry on as normal, then it became obvious that this was not possible hence the two years "homeless".

Chris

[Guish]

It keeps you grounded if you have a family. Buddha got enlightened and came back to teach people what he found. He promised his wife that he'd come back and he did. However, not a husband came back but someone who loves everyone in the same way, hence no attachment. It was natural for him to help everyone on his way. Hence, living as a recluse makes no sense. I realise in the western society, it may be harder to come back because of the materialistic focus and the rat race. In Zen, it's often said to chop wood and carry water even after enlightenment.

[TraineeHuman]

Buddha got enlightened and came back to teach people what he found. He promised his wife that he'd come back and he did.


Presumably the Buddha and U.G. and Tolle adopted an ascetic-style life for a period not because of a reasoned decision to cut themselves off from a society that is based on things that often create suffering. Rather, I suspect all three were propelled to "drop out" by an inner Force they couldn't resist. And this because they intuitively knew -- their Superconscious within them knew -- that the only way out of the trap of attachment was to temporarily cut off all the entanglements by which society kept them trapped in attachment, and by which material Nature kept them trapped in limitation. Only then could the universal consciousness begin to flower, away from the weeds. Had there been a much saner, attachment-free version of society for them to go to to grow stronger and greater in, I believe they would undoubtedly have preferred to go there for a period.

"All of humanity is my family": anyone who truly transcends the world embraces the universe and is one with it, and so doesn't exclude anything, paradoxically enough. As Zorba the Greek put it: "If you say you love God but you hate something that God has created, you are a liar." Just as the One embraces that individual and doesn't exclude him or her.

[Guish]

Buddha got enlightened and came back to teach people what he found. He promised his wife that he'd come back and he did.


Presumably the Buddha and U.G. and Tolle adopted an ascetic-style life for a period not because of a reasoned decision to cut themselves off from a society that is based on things that often create suffering. Rather, I suspect all three were propelled to "drop out" by an inner Force they couldn't resist. And this because they intuitively knew -- their Superconscious within them knew -- that the only way out of the trap of attachment was to temporarily cut off all the entanglements by which society kept them trapped in attachment, and by which material Nature kept them trapped in limitation. Only then could the universal consciousness begin to flower, away from the weeds. Had there been a much saner, attachment-free version of society for them to go to to grow stronger and greater in, I believe they would undoubtedly have preferred to go there for a period.

"All of humanity is my family": anyone who truly transcends the world embraces the universe and is one with it, and so doesn't exclude anything, paradoxically enough. As Zorba the Greek put it: "If you say you love God but you hate something that God has created, you are a liar." Just as the One embraces that individual and doesn't exclude him or her.


Good point. However, Like Neo in the Matrix, at the end, one feels safe and unaffected in any environment. Just like a flower blossoms in mud, the enlightened is unfazed by the corrupted society.

[TraineeHuman]

Like Neo in the Matrix, at the end, one feels safe and unaffected in any environment. Just like a flower blossoms in mud, the enlightened is unfazed by the corrupted society.

Not being affected by the mud? That would to me usually suggest that one has dulled oneself to fully feeling the mud. Which most people do ever so compulsively, one way or another. People do this with drugs or alcohol particularly, but also with obsession with their work or a thousand other things, including entertainment such as TV. My understanding is, it's a matter of deeply feeling and experiencing most of the mud that's there in your face, but at the same time experiencing a bliss which outshines the negativity in the mud but doesn't remove it from existence. This remains true if one has reached enlightenment or even Divinity. In a recent post I talked about the necessity to have two arrows at work simultaneously. Feeling that mud continually is inevitable (except during certain forms of meditation) if one has the arrow pointing "in", to involvement. Enlightenment doesn't mean anesthetization, but very much the opposite.