The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs [Archive] - Page 6

TraineeHuman

18th October 2013, 02:08

I read a lot of things about higher regions of consciousness only being available to people who have raised their energy levels enough, but do you think that just knowing that certain places exist can have the same effect? Like could I snag a guide or angel in the afterlife and say, "Okay, zip me up past all this to the park bench in upper 4d."? Or would they say, "Sorry chump, you didn't get your energy levels up enough and can't get any higher than this pseudo-heaven full of these Catholics here." Part of me thinks the answer might have more to do with things that happen when we're asleep, which is a bummer because 3d-me is missing out on most of that action...

What happens after death is a huge topic. And if a person manages to consciously merge with their Higher consciousness at some stage after death then that becomes in some ways challenging to describe.

After death, there eventually comes a point where a person (their Higher consciousness) cuts free of their former 4D and 5D body. It may take decades before this happens. In the meantime, anyone with a strong belief system, such as a dogmatic religion, may well get stuck in a faux-"heaven" in 4D or sometimes 5D, that is really a group fantasy and a trap, created by other deceased fellow "true" believers. I know Monroe seemed to describe some of these false "heavens" in detail, and presumably Bruce Moen does too.

But when the 4D and 5D bodies have been totally let go of, it can feel/seem like one has almost totally been wiped out and become almost nothing. The more one has learnt to be aware of the HM in the past lifetime, the more it will be clear that this isn't becoming nothing. In that case one returns to their Higher part conscious that this is and has always been oneself. In either case, of course, it absorbs the essence of the experience and lessons of the last incarnation.

Also, 5D is the world of pictures and words and symbols. But once one gets to 6D, communication still occurs, but pictures or words aren't used. Something else is used. However, because pictures and words carry meanings, their meaning can point to any higher dimension at all, as I am doing now.

Finally getting to your question, Joe, unfortunately I have to use words and concepts, and if a person hasn't had the relevant experience to put the correct meaning to them, this will sound like abstract concepts or fantasy.

A person who has brought down their HM but not Source will know various wonderful things without fully knowing that they know. If and when one is in union with Source, at that time one fully knows what one actually knows -- remembering, though, that all knowing is embedded in and surrounded by unknowing and even by knowing unknowing.

So, after death you will be able to go to as high a dimensional level as you (experientially, not theoretically) know well enough to stay stable there. It depends on you, and what you are ready for. Immediately after death everyone goes to mid-4D to kind of wrap up the lessons from their now finished lifetime. Beyond that, it's up to you and you'll automatically go to your own true level -- provided you don't veer off into some belief system's Disneyland for a while.

I like (pure, silent) meditation because it involves continually throwing away lower levels and becoming "nothing" in order to go higher and becoming "something" at a higher level. Of course, that higher perception also has to be applied to the ego in the everyday to burn ever more of it away. That's also needed for consolidation of the higher true level.

TraineeHuman

18th October 2013, 04:51

I 'awoke' from a dream, without fully waking up. I assume it was the Phase because I felt distinctly between wakefulness and dream consciousness (partial lucidity, you might say).

So you were OB, but it seems like your lower mind tried to see if it confuse you a little by asking whether it was a dream or the physical.

what I could see ... was my bedroom as normal, except there were two figures there. Two little girls; one of which was like a centaur, except that the bottom half of her body was like a giant beetle rather than a horse. They were literally the only things 'out of place' from what I could see, and they had a light blue glow/aura around them. I had a case of sleep paralysis at the time, too. I remember struggling to move, or at least focus, but I didn't manage to do so before waking up in actuality.

It's great that these 5D beings (probably healers of some sort) trusted you with a glimpse of maybe how they really look. The human faces and upper bodies wouldn't have been how they really look but were of course just to let you know they were intelligent beings like you anyway.

It's a pity you didn't "embrace" them but instead ran back to the physical.

I've been seeing some of these signs for myself. For example, rejecting certain things which are harmful, or undesirable to expansion of consciousness. For one thing, for awhile now, I've been feeling basically incapable of doing harm to anything. Just the other day, there was a particularly annoying house fly in the room with me, just being as obnoxious as possible, but I still had no desire to kill it. A creature which, I think, most 'ordinary' people would not think twice about killing... once upon a time I was one of them, but not anymore. It feels like an understanding, that regardless of the level of consciousness within other creatures (which I cannot myself determine), and whatever my purpose here may be, it isn't my place to extinguish them... to bring any life to an end, whether large or small.

When the HM is present, your overall consciousness gradually becomes transformed. It starts to "naturally" reject anything that doesn't help you grow towards Source, anything that isn't true or right.

Do you believe that, in this regard, what is 'true or right' is universally the same? Or, at least, the same for every human being? On the other hand, could there potentially be levels of subjectivity, in regard to what would be the most fulfilling or self-actualizing on an individual basis? I'm thinking in terms of spiritual development, which I guess would be synonymous with pursuing/activating/'descending' the Higher Mind, no?

Meaning itself generally depends partly, and sometimes totally, on the current situation or context. Because of this, you can say it's true that what's good or bad is relative, in this sense. That doesn't mean that in any particular situation it's arbitrary what good is.

In some recent posts I've talked about the importance of self-honesty, and of being total. What, for example, self-honesty means may vary according to the situation you're in, but it remains what you would presumably call "objectively" true that self-honesty is always a good thing for you in the long run and in the big picture. You always know what it means, and often how to take it further.

Similarly, it's always ultimately good to strive for (at least inner) sincerity, (at least inner) peace, love, happiness, responsible self-acceptance, balance, kindness (if it's not likely to be exploited). and strength. Also, as you've implicitly mentioned with the example of the fly, it's always good to do no harm if reasonably possible, or minimal harm. And yes indeed, the HM continually leads us towards bringing more of all these things into our lives and our awareness. This is of course in conflict with the lower self's "natural" drives, to exclusively seek self-preservation and pleasure and procreation.

I guess with a fly you can often get rid of it by turning the lights off in the room the fly is in and opening a door or window to where there's a stronger light, so the fly can go outside because it's attracted by the light. It's also true, though, that if the fly manages to lay eggs in your food, that could be eventually lethal or cause serious disease. That means there could be some point where you need to reluctantly kill that fly, if the fly won't leave and you can't keep all your food covered or whatever.

It's great to hear that this material is making sense to you in your own experience.

Joe Akulis

18th October 2013, 13:57

Joe Akulis

18th October 2013, 14:09

TraineeHuman

19th October 2013, 01:23

"So, after death you will be able to go to as high a dimensional level as you (experientially, not theoretically) know well enough to stay stable there. It depends on you, and what you are ready for."

The same can be said for the new Earth, correct? Is it upon each of us to reach a level of experience necessary while we are still alive right now, in order latch onto the new Earth?

Perhaps you can tell us about what you consider "the new Earth" will be, Joe.

I do have premonitions that there will be a new golden age starting within decades. But that it will be preceded by a difficult period of at least a decade which will be chaotic and probably involve widespread lawlessness -- at a street level affecting every street.

The original meaning of "ascension" was individual evolution, part of which involves the development of and communication with higher-dimensional parts of oneself. It's also true that there's a kind of group mind/soul of humanity. And that its level has already been raised as a result of all the Volunteers incrnating as humans. But every individual still needs todo the work and go through all the necessary steps of evolvement. They'll just be able to do it quicker now.

TraineeHuman

19th October 2013, 06:34

Do you believe that, in this regard, what is 'true or right' is universally the same? Or, at least, the same for every human being? On the other hand, could there potentially be levels of subjectivity, in regard to what would be the most fulfilling or self-actualizing on an individual basis? I'm thinking in terms of spiritual development, which I guess would be synonymous with pursuing/activating/'descending' the Higher Mind, no?

I've been thinking about this. I have a feeling you are touching on one of the reasons why TH is often reluctant to tell us too much about some things in the hopes that we will experience them in our own way, without any preconceived notions being brought in due to something else that someone described about it. And I believe it comes back to the way we achieve spiritual growth. There are a lot of moments where we connect the dots or break through a barrier and when those moments happen, they stand out. Some people call it an "AH HA" moment, if it has to do with some ideas that just clicked together and helped to make much better sense out of a subject that you have been thinking a lot about. Other times it's with experiential breakthroughs, like having a really solid lucid dream, or conquering the full-body vibrations and actually having your first, brief OBE. Or standing still and suppressing the fear and learning more about something that you've been running away from.

All of these steps bring us higher. BUT, what I have learned is that whenever you have a moment like these, where you feel like you just made a huge stride forward, if you turn around and think that everyone else will benefit in the same way by using the same method, or by reading the same material that you just used, you'll quickly find that it doesn't really do much of anything for them.

In some ways I agree and in some ways I don't. That's a very broad, general statement/issue. You do bring up penetrating questions, Joe -- again, that suggests to me your HM is behind (coming up with) some or many of the questions.

Yes, I'd say it is by and large necessary for a person to experience things for themselves. And too much description beforehand can get them to form a mistaken idea of the thing to be experienced. Or it can lead them to imagine that the experience is much harder to obtain than it really is. This (too many beliefs) even applies to experiencing the afterlife worlds and understanding various things that the afterlife involves.

On the other hand, people are often lost initially unless someone can point in the direction of where they need to look. One example from my own past was that for several decades I would often find myself experiencing something during meditation that I assumed was the Buddhist Void. It wasn't really clear to me what the Buddhists' Void was supposed to be. Obviously it was formless, and hence omnipresent. Looking back, it would have been helpful to me to have known that what I was calling "the Void" was actually Source. I had read various accounts of what a grand experience it was to meet Source, that I didn't realize the McGuffin I was regularly experiencing in meditation was IT -- even though my first experiences of/with Source had been ever so grand. It seemed so simple, so direct, so familiar.

So, for me it's a matter of finding a balance that seems to work for people. I guess that as someone who's experienced all sorts of things and levels, I'd like to think I'm demystifying things more than confusing things. There's been so much dumbing down out there. I see major effects of it even on the great Indian gurus of the last two centuries. There's also so much ignorance -- no doubt because it has served the interests of the religions, particularly the Western (and middle Eastern) ones.

Let's take another example. There's in some ways only a subtle difference between using the mechanical mind to make visualizations and robotically seek to stamp them onto the fabric of the future; and on the other hand to use your open-ended imagination to discover what's there when you're in any OB world or dimension. The right use of your imagination involves first getting the vaguest impulse that a certain sort of scene might be there, then turning your visual imagination on and hey presto! your OB sight is on, maybe in full color, and you're seeing the whole movie. (This presupposes that you started from a grounded and calm and sober state.)

To make things more complex, what you then see with your OB sight, for most people (but not so much always for me), will be physical world scenes which aren't what you're really tuning in to. But they are still somewhat accurate in the sense that if the scene did take place in the physical instead of in a higher world, it would indeed look just how you see it in your imagination's eye.

Some of these distinctions are very subtle. And really, everything in existence is ultimately spiritual in nature, however hard the ego tries to mask this and even pervert it in certain areas where it really holds sway (such as all the vices and all forms of slavery). In the end, spirituality is just as complex as the whole of existence, excluding nothing.

TraineeHuman

19th October 2013, 13:49

All of these steps bring us higher. BUT, what I have learned is that whenever you have a moment like these, where you feel like you just made a huge stride forward, if you turn around and think that everyone else will benefit in the same way by using the same method, or by reading the same material that you just used, you'll quickly find that it doesn't really do much of anything for them.

What is true? We are all going to learn. And we already know a bit of the truth, yes, but the path to each greater truth is learned differently by an engineer, or an author. The same tidbit of information that blows the mind of a truthseeking schoolteacher may not even interest a truth seeking carpenter. And the same meditative technique that opened your third eye may never be of much use to the next person on Avalon who reads about what worked for you. And perhaps, the way you eventually end up seeing the universe may get put into words here in 3d in a much different fashion compared to someone else who has also seen the universe.

I have a feeling a great percentage of the truth will be common to everyone who eventually learns it all and sees it all and experiences it all and reaches the highest level of fulfillment. But not all of it. In some ways, the ultimate truth will be yours and yours alone.

Just specifically with regard to bringing down the HM: yes, it's true everyone has slightly different forms of resistance to accepting the HM. That's because everyone has a different nature, as you say.

I don't know if I've made it clear at all as yet that there'll be resistance at every little stage, every little step along the way, of the descent of the HM. I guess each such small step is much easier if a person is open to the following possibility. That if they let go of their own particular style and their own particular habits, of seeing, feeling, acting, spending their time, communicating, and so on, then -- and only then -- something better can come in and replace the latter. Often the HM will give you back something of "your style" anyway, but in an improved form.

Can you keep throwing away your (often subconscious or habitual) fantasies of the good life for you? I don't mean that you throw away your rational plans and arrangements that you've sensibly made and built. That's made and built not with your ego, and may include dreams or intuitions or direct insights that have come from your HM. There's a difference between sensible planning and prioritizing, as against using reasoning to justify or rationalize egoic fixations for getting or holding power or attachments or revenge or "martyrdom" or whatever else that's impure in your heart.

Yes, some steps may be too much right now. You just need to outgrow those ones over time. What your HM will do, though, is rather magically keep creating just the right work situations and friendships or commitments which push you to drop the biggest unreal attachments that are currently holding you back. This may take time, obviously.

So, accept everything totally. By that I don't mean be a pushover. I mean first face each thing and inwardly try out going fully with it. Out of that flow you may be moved to throw it or overturn it, judo-style. But as long as you first did your best to fully and totally accept it, that's probably fine.

TraineeHuman

20th October 2013, 04:41

Non-verbal communication is one of the major skills a person may develop through learning to astral travel fluently. According to Western psychology, 8% of what a recipient of our verbal communications receives is what our words actually say, 8% is what comes across in our manner of saying it, -- and a whopping 84% supposedly comes from the person's (kind of subconsciously) reading our body posture and facial expression, or possibly our physical gestures. I humbly suggest that is nonsense. Rather, I claim to have determined that most of the 84% comes via telepathy (or maybe similar forms of information transfer that lie beyond the physical). Everyone is slightly telepathic, but has been so since year zero and so doesn't notice they are using that skill to "read" others.

I believe it's very important for you all, though, to learn to develop your non-verbal communication skills more strongly in a conscious way. One of the best ways to do this is to practice communicating intimately with trees. Eventually you should be able to graduate to communicating clearly in this way with animals. You just need to practice it deliberately, and keep at it. It doesn't really matter whether you eventually find yourself astral traveling wjhile you do this or not. The experience won't be that much different either way.

Such non-verbal exchange will initially involve mostly emotions or, equivalently, energy that carries some sort of structure to it. It's especially important for you to become fluent at this. In popular culture, we say that a singer is very "soulful" or "has plenty of soul" if they manage to communicate deep emotion without artificiality. Notice that's emotion (4D), and not the Higher consciousness. However, although I've usually been talking of the Higher "Mind", the way that actually works is in many ways similar to the emotional part of ourselves. Similar to, but not to be mistaken for that! Both are quite flowing, quite capable of taking us over, quite (relatively) lacking in specific structure, quite bewitching or seductive.

Although the HM energizes us and connects us to the universe via the oversoul area above the head, it often guides us in everyday things via the heart center, from the back. But again, it's important not to confuse the heart center with the HM. "Listen to your heart" may often be extremely good advice -- provided that involves tuning in to where the HM is guiding us.

plotinus

20th October 2013, 10:59

Wow what a wonderful thread, you have bought back to me my own experiences so vividly , I was terrified when this first started happening to me , so much so it came to an NDE and a meeting and chat with death himself. He explained to me it was my choice and I needed to make my mind up, I woke very ill with blood poisoning, but also a certain sense I was getting well. Since then I have had many extraordinary OBE `s , they have changed my life for the better and helped bring amazing creative intelligence to some very human issues. The advice given by others here is very sound, the more you go out there with a altruistic intention the more you come back with. It seems very sad that so few do this, but I read somewhere that people seem to know when it is their time. Chi Rho plotinus

TraineeHuman

21st October 2013, 11:47

I was terrified when this first started happening to me , so much so it came to an NDE and a meeting and chat with death himself. He explained to me it was my choice and I needed to make my mind up, I woke very ill with blood poisoning, but also a certain sense I was getting well. Since then I have had many extraordinary OBE `s , they have changed my life for the better and helped bring amazing creative intelligence to some very human issues. The advice given by others here is very sound, the more you go out there with a altruistic intention the more you come back with. It seems very sad that so few do this, but I read somewhere that people seem to know when it is their time. Chi Rho plotinus

Hi, Plotinus. It sounds like you've experienced quite a variety of OB journeys and perceptions. Would you like to briefly share more about any of the with us -- and more details about how they have been significant in changing your life?

TraineeHuman

21st October 2013, 12:28

To start learning how to communicate with trees and plants, I would say you simply watch them and be as fully open as possible. Does anyone have any experiences of doing something like this that they care to share?

Her's my ten cents. It's better if you can think of trees as persons, as souls, only different. They just happen to remain fixed at the same spot their entire lifetime. Because of that, trees and plants absolutely love to reach out energetically. They live to do so.

The nonverbal communications they are constantly sending out are uplifting to all humans and animals. (The one exception is if the chief nature-spirits in charge of a wild area have decided not to welcome, say, humans, because they want to keep the area unpolluted by egoic energies.)

Each tree, plant or flower sends out a slightly different kind of communication. Roses are often the most popular type of flower because they send out messages for people to be kind to themselves, to accept themselves and forgive themselves -- and did I mention being kind to themselves? Flowers are a little like mayflies. Because their life is short, they strive extra hard to send out very pleasant energies telepathically to all who will receive them. Trees do this also, but less intensely and gaudily.

The best way I know to tune into a plant or tree is simply to admire it, to tune in to its beauty. If you look for it, you can uncover far more beauty than you noticed was there at first, perhaps.

You can also start by just noticing what kinds of "energies" -- that is, emotions, really -- different trees seem to show. Notice some differences between old trees and young trees. Notice how different particular trees get on with, or fail to get on with, nearby plants or trees. You don't need to be able to put it all into words. Some communications from trees etc will feel obviously positive but they may even be "downloads" which are or seem unsayable.

Practicing such communication will make it easier for you to become aware of "energies" in general. This in turn will make it easier for you to be aware of, and even "see", non-physical energies, i.e. energies from dimensions higher than the physical. If you want to be able to "stop the world" a la Castaneda, you need to have alternatives to "the (ordinary) world (or matrix)" that you can tune into. So, I suggest you need to practice exercises such as this.

No doubt it could be helpful to other members if some of you could can describe the results you get, or don't get. This is just a matter of enjoying Nature more intensely, of communing with it a little. It's not rocket science. But it does involve learning to "talk" in a different way, rather like you learned to talk when you were an infant.

TraineeHuman

22nd October 2013, 12:02

One example of someone who needed rescuing when they died was my mother. In her case it was because she had a strongly fixed belief that when we die we totally cease to exist. That belief made her very frightened indeed. And in the astral, of course, what you put your attention on you attract and in that way make real, even if it wasn't there at all.

The atheist or materialist types like her are only one example of he ones who all need the hospitals. For two weeks,a s soon as she had finished her life review she tried to follow me everywhere and interpolate her comments into my thoughts. Then I somehow found a way to cut all the attachments she was using to obtain some sort of control over me. Thank goodness I was able to make that cut somehow! Otherwise I would have needed rescuing for sure.

(She had also tried to do a walk-in to take over my body for the first five minutes after she died, but I successfully wrestled her off in the etheric. It felt like heavyweight wrestling. In the end I managed to push her off the back of my neck and my upper back.)

Then I got my g.a.s to arrange help, and they told me she was in a very bad space because she was totally mystified about where she was and she was extremely fearful, mostly that she was going through some kind of process of being extinguished somehow.

Less than two weeks later, however, she was out of hospital. She managed to call my name, to put what my brain "heard" as the sound of her voice quite loud in the middle of my head, not long before I was going to go to sleep. Her "voice" was very joyful and affectionate. All she needed to communicate was love, and she now appreciated I was someone with wonderful connections in that world, and goodbye (pretty much).

I believe the term "rescue" covers a diverse variety of situations. It may be instructive to look at that in a future post. In the meantime, does anyone else have any possible "psychic rescue" experience they have heard of or know of?

TraineeHuman

24th October 2013, 13:53

One apparently prevalent idea I believe it's useful for us to question is that as a person develops their awareness, maybe most/many of their dreams will become fully lucid. Why should remembering be that important? I'd like to ask.

I don't doubt there's initially value in recalling details while you're awake of what an astral or even higher world looks like. But I'd like to ask, once you've seen what that particular "scenery" is like, is it really so useful to keep remembering the details of your trips there? Why doesn't remembering the details become less important after a while, once you've established that other, higher worlds do exist, and that you do know how to get on touch with them sometimes? Almost like the way it isn't important for you to remember what happened in your day, say, exactly thirty-eight months ago, in the afternoon?

If you don't have a stable link to your HM as yet, I don't doubt the value of keeping a dream journal by your bed and recording details from your dreams. But what's important in that is it's one way for you to keep getting up-to-date access to part of what your HM is striving to tell you right now. Admittedly, you do need to use your memory to recall at least something of what was in your dreams.

Also, isn't much of your memory, at least as recorded in your dream journal, mostly part of your lower intellect? Isn't that significantly incomplete at best?

Memory isn't the only thing that connects 4D with 3D. For instance, our whole physical survival depends on our life-force, every moment. Our "4D body", our "emotional body/self", our own individual "life-force" -- let's take these as all being almost the same. And our body -- the totality of the cells' consciousness -- has to depend on it, or die. And be led by it constantly.

This dependence is the primary connection between the physical and the astral for each of us, surely. Regardless of whether we remember what the astral looks like or feels like, or not.

Because of this dependence the physical body has, our 4D body -- by which I'll mean, say, the totality of our emotions and what holds them together -- needs to be strong, and healthy. But as it says in the Bible (I think!), both the physical and the 4D (and 5D) body when combined needs to be a reasonably well looked-after temple to be fit for the "Holy Spirit" --almost something like the HM -- to hopefully dwell in.

And to make our 4D and 5D bodies "purer" or more positive, we do need some kind of psychotherapy or intensive personal growth etc. And the basis of psychotherapy is a re-experiencing of parts of our past. We may not consciously recall the full details -- or any details -- of past incidents if we're just "running their energy [i.e. emotions]", as I take it scientologists would say, or "running their pictures [5D ideas/beliefs/etc]".

What happens during any such process is that we're revisiting the ("energetic" or "pictorial") root of the painful memories we blocked from our awareness in the past and which had remained blocked until now. In this way we do come to remember the general essence of what really happened in our past.But it's more a matter of letting go of the baggage rather than retaining it and the memory of it. I guess that as a result of psychotherapy etc etc I can now remember the history of all the major things that happened in my life in years zero to nine, and also before and after. But I don't dwell on it. I don't reminisce about it at all. And I've actually most of the unpleasant parts of the details. These have been wiped away forever -- just went "pop" and vanished.. Better to let the Higher consciousness shine through directly wherever possible.

As discussed earlier in this thread, once one has learnt how to "ascend" to the experience of higher worlds, the end game is to learn to somehow eventually bring the essence of what you have learnt there into the supposed "mud" of the physical world and your life there.

Although the physical world can be said to be "lower" in certain ways, precisely because of that it gives us greater opportunities to grow. The HM has to compromise because of the limitations of the phsyical, emotional and mental vehicles through which it's seeking to shine and in so doing develop itself also. The HM has to accept these limitations but it gets its means of advancement out of that interchange!

About three months ago Ron Mauer pointed out something along the lines that an improved physical world would not be so bad at all. That it wouldn't be a place that some including him, would want to leave soon, or any lifetime in the near future or even distant future. I hope I haven't misrepresented Ron's meaning too much here.

In a somewhat similar vein, it's in the HM's interest for the 4D and 5D bodies to be strong -- but positive, and somewhat pure in the sense of relatively ego-free. Then the individual has plenty of energy and courage to create positive things. to be persistent in achieving such ends. It may also mean, though, that such an individual can be reluctant to surrender the driving wheel to the HM. If that individual has learnt how to become energetic and has developed various talents but has not purged her/himself sufficiently of the hold of negative emotions like hate, jealousy, fear, and so forth, then that energetic strength can become a liability. Instead of being a preparation for the HM to be able to do all of its work, it can be the vehicle for the misuse of that individual's inner power, once the HM has helped it to begin to grow stronger -- as I guess I've already mentioned in a previous post.

TraineeHuman

25th October 2013, 04:34

Here are some quotes regarding intuition by very famous people from various fields. The quotes are all taken from an issue of Psychology Today. They are all extremely accurate, in my opinion. I love these quotes. Sometimes people say things about intuition which are only half true, or misleading, in my opinion. But not here.

The only real valuable thing is intuition. - Albert Einstein

Insight is not a light bulb that goes off inside our heads. It is a flickering candle that can easily be snuffed out. - Malcolm Gladwell, Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking

At times you have to leave the city of your comfort and go into the wilderness of your intuition. What you'll discover will be wonderful. What you'll discover is yourself. - Alan Alda

The truth about life and lie about life is not measured by others but by your intuition, which never lies. - Santosh Kalwar

Every test successfully met is rewarded by some growth in intuitive knowledge, strengthening of character, or initiation into a higher consciousness. - Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

A hunch is creativity trying to tell you something. - Frank Capra

I feel there are two people inside me - me and my intuition. If I go against her, she'll screw me every time, and if I follow her, we get along quite nicely. – Kim Basinger

Intuition is the clear conception of the whole at once. – Johann Kaspar Lavater

Intuition comes very close to clairvoyance; it appears to be the extrasensory perception of reality. – Alexis Carrel

Intuition is the supra-logic that cuts out all the routine processes of thought and leaps straight from the problem to the answer. – Robert Graves

Often you have to rely on intuition. – Bill Gates

You must train your intuition - you must trust the small voice inside you which tells you exactly what to say, what to decide. – Ingrid Bergman

It is through science that we prove, but through intuition that we discover. - Henri Poincare

Intuition becomes increasingly valuable in the new information society precisely because there is so much data. - John Naisbitt

TraineeHuman

25th October 2013, 05:40

Some more quotes on intuition:

“Intuition is the source of scientific knowledge.” Aristotle

"A good artist lets his intuition lead him wherever it wants.” Lao Tzu

"As you see, I do not treat the creation of fiction, that is to say the invention and development of fantasies, as a form of abstract thought. I don’t wish to deny the uses of the intellect, but sometimes one has the intuition that the intellect by itself will lead one nowhere." J. M. Coetzee

“Every happening, great and small, is a parable whereby God speaks to us, and the art of life is to get the message.” Malcolm Muggeridge

“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” Albert Einstein

“When you expand your awareness, seemingly random events will be seen to fit into a larger purpose.” Deepak Chopra

“Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors where there were only walls.” Joseph Campbell

“Intuition isn’t the enemy, but the ally, of reason.” John Kord Lagemann

“Synchronicity is choreographed by a great, pervasive intelligence that lies at the heart of nature, and is manifest in each of us through intuitive knowledge.” Deepak Chopra

"But, you know, when I choose a film I need to believe in it and believe I can do something special with it, and after a while that means not trying to judge or analyze why I should do it. You have to follow this intuition thing, which is a mystery to me." Juliette Binoche

“Built into you is an internal guidance system that shows you the way home. All you need to do is heed the voice.” Neale Donald Walsch

“Intuition is a combination of historical (empirical) data, deep and heightened observation, and an ability to cut through the thickness of surface reality. Intuition is like a slow motion machine that captures data instantaneously and hits you like a ton of bricks. Intuition is a knowing, a sensing that is beyond the conscious understanding — a gut feeling. Intuition is not pseudo-science.” Abella Arthur

“If prayer is you talking to God, then intuition is God talking to you.” Dr. Wayne Dyer

“It is always with excitement that I wake up in the morning wondering what my Intuition will toss up to me, like gifts from the sea. I work with it and rely on it. It’s my partner.” Jonas Salk

“The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, and the solution comes to you and you don’t know how or why.” Albert Einstein

“Intuition is the clear conception of the whole at once.” Johan Kaspar Lavater

“Close both eyes to see with the other eye.” Rumi

The fact that modern physics, the manifestation of an extreme specialisation of the rational mind, is now making contact with mysticism, the essence of religion and manifestation of an extreme specialisation of the intuitive mind, shows very beautifully the unity and complementary nature of the rational and intuitive modes of consciousness; of the yang and the yin.” Fritof Capra

“There can be as much value in the blink of an eye as in months of rational analysis.” Malcolm Gladwell

“I rely far more on gut instinct than researching huge amounts of statistics.” –Richard Branson

“Intuition is a spiritual faculty and does not explain, but simply points the way.” Florence Scovel Shinn

“Trust your own instinct. Your mistakes might as well be your own, instead of someone else’s.” Billy Wilder

“Good instincts usually tell you what to do long before your head has figured it out.” Michael Burke

“Follow your instincts. That’s where true wisdom manifests itself.” Oprah Winfrey

“Trust yourself. You know more than you think you do.” Benjamin Spock

“Intuition will tell the thinking mind where to look next.” Jonas Salk
“Listen to your intuition. It will tell you everything you need to know.”
Anthony J. D’Angelo
“Come into the silence of solitude, and the vibration there will talk to you through the voice of God”. –Paramahansa Yogananda

“Truly successful decision making relies on a balance between deliberate and instinctive thinking.” Malcolm Gladwell

Faith is a passionate intuition. William Wordsworth

“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.” Albert Einstein

"Good design begins with honesty, asks tough questions, comes from collaboration and from trusting your intuition." Freeman Thomas

“Often you have to rely on intuition.” Bill Gates

"An absolute can only be given in an intuition, while all the rest has to do with analysis." Henri Bergson

TraineeHuman

25th October 2013, 06:43

More quotes about intuition. Must be something in it if so many wise people have gone to the trouble of making statements about how great it is. Also, many of these quotes are simply about listening to your intuition. And the more you manage to listen, the more fully the HM descends even as you're doing so.

"Common sense is instinct. Enough of it is genius." George Bernard Shaw

"Life is like music; it must be composed by ear, feeling, and instinct, not by rule." Samuel Butler

"Truly successful decision making relies on a balance between deliberate and instinctive thinking." Malcolm Gladwell, Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking

"One of the reasons why so few of us ever act, instead of react, is because we are continually stifling our deepest impulses." Henry Miller

"If you let your fear of consequence prevent you from following your deepest instinct, your life will be safe, expedient and thin." Katharine Butler Hathaway

"Trust your hunches. … Hunches are usually based on facts filed away just below the conscious level. Warning! Do not confuse your hunches with wishful thinking. This is the road to disaster. " Dr. Joyce Brothers

" Life is one long struggle between conclusions based on abstract ways of conceiving cases, and opposite conclusions prompted by our instinctive perception of them." William James

"Remember, there are no mistakes, only lessons. Love yourself, trust your choices, and everything is possible. " Cherie-Carter Scotts

"Intuition is given only to him who has undergone long preparation to receive it." Louis Pasteur

“Never ignore a gut feeling, but never believe that it's enough.” Robert Heller American Business Writer, Editor of Management

“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” Albert Einstein

“A leader or a man of action in a crisis almost always acts subconsciously and then thinks of the reasons for his action.” Jawaharlal Nehru

“Intuition is what tells a wife her husband has done wrong before he thinks of doing it.” Anonymous

TraineeHuman

26th October 2013, 12:49

I suspect that a major reason why some people find the idea of astral travel fascinating is as follows. At some level these poeple realize that most of what nearly everyone does , and even is, is just habits -- mostly!

Most people don't realize that that is so. Which means that all, or nearly all, of those habits are subconscious or unconscious! (By that I mean what's below consciousness in the sense of being a lower level of existence.)

Another thing. Habits are by definition always purely mechanical, purely robotic things. Even when they're not purely physical, they mostly don't have scarcely as much life-force in them as the non-habitual things.

The astral world, by contrast, is full of life-force almost everywhere -- but mostly not manifested into physical form. Also, to consciously travel there or experience there means to be conscious, and therefore not habitual. That, I suspect is a major reason why it seems so attractive.

When people complain about how most are required to work in effect as a slave, that's a very insightful complaint, because it clearly recognizes that we are capable of something much better. And of course, the way the ruling elite manipulate society etc is altogether monstrous. But I'd like to ask, even in a much better, reformed world, what other work will one be able to do well if they are mostly still the slave of subconscious impulses? After all, animals are also slaves to their subconscious impulses.

How many of those working in government, in science and technology, in academia, in the arts, and so on, are truly doing more than mostly regurgitating certain habits -- called things like their "policy" or their "style" or their "school"? Doesn't that make a mockery of what their field of practice could and should be like, in a better, more conscious world?

This is also why I consider it's great when people devote time regularly to doing their best to consciously wake up. Whether through meditation, or astral travel, or whatever, or through looking with a critical and informed eye at the issues found in any of the areas this Forum covers.

TraineeHuman

27th October 2013, 13:06

According to much of Western psychology, the only way to truly get rid of a habit is to replace it with a less offensive habit; plus gradually de-condition (i.e. re-program) yourself by rewarding yourself for gradually doing it less and less.

But the only thing I know of that permanently eliminates the source of a habit is the HM. When the HM begins seriously entering into you, it causes all your habits to bubble up to the surface in your dreams, and thereby get dissolved.

Equally, it's a great thing for any of you to work on accurately remembering your dreams. This also brings some of the light of the HM right in and thereby at least partially dissolves your biggest and worst habits. I kid you not.

You won't realize they're just habits. In this thread I've been saying (most of) your dreams are your HM's attempt to show you whatever you'e not facing the most this week. But you're not facing such things only because the habit has convinced you that it's an indispensable part of your core. (And so many of those habits are made mostly out of fear -- fears you have no conscious knowledge of even having.)

So, recording or remembering your dreams is a much bigger deal than most would imagine. (Having been "outed" by being identified, your habits will no longer be permitted to show themselves freely while you're in the waking state.) That's the real, wonderful reason why I've encouraged it considerably, and done my best to offer intuitive interpretations of some aspects of members' dreams or OBEs.

Please do keep it up, folks -- or start this week. keep a dream diary (a large pad or exercise book, etc) by your bed. Write whatever you remember of your dreams in the instant you wake up -- however much it feels like a nuisance for you to pry yourself from your pillow and write while your mind is still in a haze. Give it a try for. say, three weeks. What have you got to lose? (That question was an attempted ironic joke.)

I happen to have a psychology degree and a social work degree, and lots of experience in counselling and psychotherapy and psychic healing. I believe this is the most powerful way there is that you can be healed of your habits.

Incidentally, nearly all of the dreams members have shared in this thread in detail have covered very broad areas -- which is great. To me it means they have broken through in quite a big way in each case. Even if sometimes a little fantasy gets mixed in with the details. I'm truly proud for them that they've managed to get to that point. But they need to keep going, until all the biggest/broadest/deepest habits have been dissolved forever -- through their dreams or OBEs, no less. Sounds like the stuff dreams are made of, n'est pas? But as Shakespeare said, our lives are of such stuff as dreams are made of.

Jake

27th October 2013, 13:41

What have you got to lose? (That question was an attempted ironic joke.)

Priceless!! :) LMAO...

TraineeHuman

27th October 2013, 13:48

Freed Fox,for instance, has already had an experience of the kundalini rising fully. The kundalini energy rises through the 4D energy/emotional/subtle body, not the physical body at all. But once it has done so, it opens up what was up till then a barrier to the flow of energy (again, at a 4D level) of the crown area at the top of the head and in the area above it.

What happens then is there is clear communication between the HM and the body-bound consciousness (which includes the lower intellect and the emotions). Well, as clear as "communication" can be between something formless and hugely silent (but "saying" more than any non-silence) and a being who is trying to "translate" everything into forms.

I'm saying this because at least AwakeInADream and Freed Fox have evidently both had the barrier to their HMs removed already. I want to reassure them, and any others, that they do already have direct access to the Higher, non-separative consciousness as well as their ordinary mind.

I'm not convinced it's necessary for the kundalini to rise fully before that barrier can be broken. In my own case the two didn't seem to coincide.

I do know, though, that in India many holy men and women apparently with fully risen kundalini fell victim to epilepsy. Earlier in this thread I had suggested to Deneon that the experience of the abnormal heat in one's body was "normal" for someone with activated kundalini, which I strongly suspected he had also. And that I had been experiencing such body heat for decades. I believe the reason why some of the Indian sadhus developed epilepsy was through dehydration -- because the extra heat burns up extra water in the body. This is why I suggest it helps such individuals to drink plenty of water -- preferably with a dash of sea salt or mineral salts or fruit juice.

Now that I look back, for close to two years it looks like my body may have stopped overheating altogether, after decades of doing so. It had also been getting progressively less overheated for a few years before that.

I had told Deneon he probably had no option but to get used to perspiring abnormally at times, and having to drink plenty of water, and probably, like me, sleep with at most a single sheet for covering, except maybe in winter.

There's one thing I forgot to mention. I did manage to determine for sure that the heat had something to do with the gigantic (electromagnetic) energy that the presence of the HM continually brings. I've now narrowed this down further, to the conclusion that the heat is all caused by something like "static" or friction. And I'm almost certain now that that static or friction or whatever amounts simply to some level of resistance against the HM's full force and against surrendering to the HM.

I hope this information can save some individuals years of sweat, if they can learn to truly surrender.

By the way, if your third eye has been opened (i.e. if you could swear that sometimes there is an open tunnel into your head from the center of the lower half of your forehead), then your crown area will also be open energetically. It will be sufficiently opened that the HM will indeed have descended as far down as the mid-head and be active from there. To those who've done that: welcome to the end game (regarding reincarnating).

TraineeHuman

28th October 2013, 11:43

For the HM -- and intuition -- to come down into you more fully, you need to cultivate a state of being very open. That state, though, is also something others around you may try to take advantage of unless you're vigilant about that.

You need to become extremely vulnerable to whatever comes down from the Divine and the higher. At the same time, being vigilant about some others around you will mean to at times deliberately not show too much tolerance, patience, empathy, and so on to, say, some workmates and quite possibly some family members. You have to put on an act of being "tougher" in that sense. Otherwise, someone will take you for an easy target. Imagine negotiating with someone while you let slip your huge natural smile, and that instantly shows a great generosity inside you. How would you expect that would affect the whole negotiation, and the implementation of its conclusion?

Also, you need to be vulnerable only to the Divine and Higher forces, but somehow not to the forces of Darkness which live somewhere inside you, in your shadow side.

Simply through being vulnerable to the Divine influences, you'll become more and more conscious of them. As you become conscious, you need to surrender to them, to deliberately invite them in.

If you are someone who hasn't as yet become conscious that the Divine influences are present in and around you, you need to keep in some fashion deliberately calling on them -- which can be something like prayer, if you like, or affirmation, I guess; or, alternatively, you can concentrate on your heart center and to opening your heart fully to them, i.e. to loving them. (Maybe you need to practice meditation intensively for a few months, though, before you'll appreciate how hugely lovable they are.) That will bring the HM's forces and power down, though only so far as to (the 4D energies of) your heart area and above (i.e. including the head area). Keep at it. "If you build it, they will come."

If you're able to practice feeling the aliveness in you and you're able to let go into that really fully, that will bring the HM (at first temporarily) down into all your body at least down to the belly. Since fear "lives" in the belly area, that will automatically burn fear (and anger, and hate) away any time it descends to there. Talk about healing yourself psychologically!

Then, the price of getting the HM to stay is endless vigilance, I'm afraid -- until you can walk daily in the Light.

Getting the HM to come down right to your feet and below -- and therefore fully into your subconscious and unconscious -- is the hardest part. That does take real surrender all right, real letting go, in a way different from anything you did before. Maybe that's a "story" for another day. Especially since everybody gets tripped up at that point and-- in some special way of their own or other -- really gets things quite wrong for a while then, as far as I've seen. The Major Leagues. But as J. Krishnamurti said, something inside you can flower, quite unexpected.ly out of the blue, any moment, if you're ready, and if you truly let it. But you really have to have made some room ready for the possibility of a life that's genuinely full of roses.

Joe Akulis

28th October 2013, 16:56

"By the way, if your third eye has been opened (i.e. if you could swear that sometimes there is an open tunnel into your head from the center of the lower half of your forehead)..."

Hmm. Now I'm starting to wonder if what I've been feeling on the forehead was indeed a blockage, or something else... Over the winter last year, I'd been noticing more and more often during the daytime as I'm going about my usual routines, this pressure/buzzing right in this exact location. I've learned enough to know that this wasn't anything related to headaches, because it only started up after I had been working on my meditation practices. Up until now, I've been treating it like a blockage of my third eye, and whenever I'm in meditation and I feel it coming on, just like when I think any other of my primary chakras are complaining, I use a technique to sort of accept the blockage more fully and then send it to Source. I wonder if it's not a blockage. I will tell you some more about things that have been going on with me lately. (Sometimes I swear the things you're posting here Trainee, it feels like you are in tune with our progress, intuitively.)

About two weeks ago, I decided that I need to work harder at ditching some of my energy-killing habits. A couple coffees in the morning, a couple nightcap alcoholic drinks in the evening. Rather than treat it like some kind of challenge, I've been sort of just allowing my HS to help push it aside. It's not really a conscious effort as much as just an understanding. Like they are some mechanistic habits that I need to get above.

Before I tried moving out of my lazy mode and working meditation into my routine again, I went through a 3 or 4 month period where a particular recurring dream had hit me a couple more times: I'm always back at the place where I went to college. But it's later on in life after I've been well into my career. Almost like my place of emplyment has agreed to keep paying me while I'm at school. :- ) And it's the beginning of a new school year. The same thing always happens. I never go to pick up the form that tells me what time and location where each of my classes is going to be throughout the week. I know that there are a bunch of courses I need to be attending, and that I'm there to work on some kind of advanced degree, but I never go to any of the classes.

I haven't ever asked you about this one because I figured the meaning was pretty clear. I came here to Earth to learn. And I'm putting it off. I need to get crackin'! So I pick up the meditation, and try to work at improving my energy levels, and no more recurring dream.

Speaking of energy levels, I wanted to ask if anyone else has noticed different times when they are either writing something in an Avalon post, or when speaking to a group of people, where your body starts shivering? Does anyone else get the shakes? This is happening a lot to me lately. I have a feeling it's a lot like the phenomenon experienced by the group of people who called themselves the Quakers, in the early days of the colonization of America by the Europeans. Some pretty religious folks in Pennsylvania would gather together and pray, and a lot of them would all start shaking. My take on all this is that it's similar to the full body vibrations that hit before someone achieves an OOB state. But not sure. I've been treating it like a side effect that occurs whenever I am allowing my HS to come through and do the shining for me. I try to consciously reassure my body that this is nothing to be alarmed about, that the experience is welcome. That seems to help.

My intuition tells me that my HS has decended to the throat chakra level, and is just dying to break through to my heart... Being male, and growing up around males who sorta behaved like listening to your heart is something that makes you a woman... I guess there's still a little hesitation there. But, another question, can my HS have descended to the level of my third eye chakra if I still don't see things? I mean, I can't see auras, or see anything when I meditate, so I figure I'm blocked still, but I really don't know. Could be that I just need more practice in meditation.

With gratitude and love to all in this thread,
Joe

Joe Akulis

28th October 2013, 17:00

Little Joe: "I know you're up there, and I know that you can hear. Show me how to get to know you. Teach me the way to reach you."

Big Joe: "Wait there. I'm coming to you."

TraineeHuman

29th October 2013, 08:59

I'm starting to wonder if what I've been feeling on the forehead was indeed a blockage, or something else... Over the winter last year, I'd been noticing more and more often during the daytime as I'm going about my usual routines, this pressure/buzzing right in this exact location. I've learned enough to know that this wasn't anything related to headaches, because it only started up after I had been working on my meditation practices. Up until now, I've been treating it like a blockage of my third eye, and whenever I'm in meditation and I feel it coming on, just like when I think any other of my primary chakras are complaining, I use a technique to sort of accept the blockage more fully and then send it to Source. I wonder if it's not a blockage.

As far as I know, a strong buzzing, particularly anywhere near the surface of the mid- or upper head, isn't a blockage but means that that area is indeed opened. Remember, the chakras aren't physical anyway, though they have such strong energy people mistake them for something physical. You may like to read one or more of Lobsang Rampa's books. I understand at least one of his books is all about the opening of the third eye. Since he came from the Tibetan tradition, it would have been combined with lots of meditation and with working on the heart center first before one moves on to the third eye.

I don't know if it's in the book by Rampa that Ray provided us with a pdf of earlier in this thread, in April I believe. (I haven't read most of that book yet.) Maybe sway or someone else knows?

Sometimes I swear the things you're posting here Trainee, it feels like you are in tune with our progress, intuitively.

Because each person's HM is non-separative in many ways, it's not surprising that synchronicities and telepathic exchanges of information are going on. When Ray was making posts, there were two occasions when he beat me by one or two minutes with a post that said something very similar to one I had just drafted or was just finishing to write and was intending to post right then -- and I had to cancel what I was about to post. I believe I also managed to steal his thunder somewhat at least several times too. At times I've experienced some other very interesting synchronicities with regard to members contributing to this thread too.

TraineeHuman

30th October 2013, 00:53

My intuition tells me that my HS has decended to the throat chakra level, and is just dying to break through to my heart... Being male, and growing up around males who sorta behaved like listening to your heart is something that makes you a woman... I guess there's still a little hesitation there. But, another question, can my HS have descended to the level of my third eye chakra if I still don't see things? I mean, I can't see auras, or see anything when I meditate, so I figure I'm blocked still, but I really don't know. Could be that I just need more practice in meditation.

"Enlightenment" is a word that tends to be used to refer to any of a whole number of different things, which inevitably causes plenty of confusion. This is quite relevant to your insightful observation, Joe, that you're waiting for the HM to descend stably (permanently) into your heart center. I'll have to save discussion of the heart center for hopefully my next post, because that center serves different functions in different dimensional levels, which can also create confusion.

There are different levels of enlightenment. The first level is where the HM descends stably into the head area (the mid-head chakra). Obviously, its permanent descent into each of the major chakras further down the (subtle) body will be a slightly higher level of enlightenment.

Sometimes an individual experiences the HM's powerful descent into all the chakras for, say twenty minutes, but that may not be permanent and the HM will retreat but remain permanently at least in the head chakra. Nevertheless, that will often be a very transformative experience that totally changes how the individual sees reality from then on. Such an experience will include some experience of union with Source (actually not the fullest possible level of that, but the lowest). At that stage, Source will seem to the individual to be totally kind of aloof even though the individual sees that everything that exists inside it and that it is likewise somehow "in" everything. Fuller experiences of Source, if they happen, will eventually reveal to the individual that Source is not so "aloof" but quite "entangled".

Sometimes the entry of HM happens gradually. In the major Zen school, the Soto school, they prefer it to happen so gradually that the individual doesn't hugely notice the change until the HM has descended fully into the feet and therefore all the chakras.

TraineeHuman

30th October 2013, 02:49

True enlightenment, at any level as mentioned in my previous post, is not some kind of escapism. True, it's some kind of new birth, and that does involve a type of death or leaving behind. And it does, for example, always include some "escape" out of the matrix -- in just about any sense of "the matrix". But one "escapes" by facing and outgrowing, not by denying and not by losing one's vulnerability.

I prefer usually not to talk of "enlightenment", but of freedom from unhappiness instead. If I say I'm happy and you say no, I only think I'm happy, then I can ask: "Tell me what's the difference?" The only difference would be that I would be avoiding certain things or areas, carefully avoiding facing them at all. But the type of happiness that's linked to true enlightenment involves never avoiding anything, but facing it fully, as far as practicable.

For example, I would say I've outgrown movies on the whole. It's not that I'm avoiding movies, but I occasionally watch one that seems particularly promising and find I simply can't stay interested to stay in there till the end. After all, the reason why people watch movies or plays is primarily so they can vicariously play out some of the ego's dramas inside themselves. (The almost non-stop playing out continues in the subconscious for at least two days after you've finished watching. And drama is the ego's language, and only the ego's language.) I'd like to think I don't find some of the ego's nonsense so interesting or relevant, these days. I just don't find it interesting.

TraineeHuman

30th October 2013, 08:24

About two weeks ago, I decided that I need to work harder at ditching some of my energy-killing habits. A couple coffees in the morning, a couple nightcap alcoholic drinks in the evening. Rather than treat it like some kind of challenge, I've been sort of just allowing my HS to help push it aside. It's not really a conscious effort as much as just an understanding. Like they are some mechanistic habits that I need to get above.

You bring up many issues at once, Joe, because you intuitively see in a glance how they're interconnected in the big picture. To the HM, everything always looks connected, and simple, and one whole.

That's great, because that's exactly how the HM works. From five years ago to three years ago and on, most of my posts used to be "multiple-issue" like that. I eventually realized I was brining up way too many issues at the one time for most readers to grok what I was talking about. Still, I suggest, do keep managing to look at the big picture, Joe -- and everyone! Because that's the HM's home turf.

In this post there's more on the HM's descent. In my next post I'll say more of what I understand regarding the heart center -- which should address some of the other concerns in your post.

As I've said, you don't ever really fight with your bad habits/vices. And you almost never fight your conceptualizing mind. The ego will still be largely in control of that mind. It will win that "battle" every time.

You have to continually take a step back from anything that's mechanical, such as habits. You have to silently shun them. I believe you're saying you're already (usually?) doing that? You have to let anything lower wither away through lack of attention.

I don't mean that you should totally repress your sexual or other desires. What I am saying is there's a lower expression and also a higher one. I guess in the case of sexuality, the higher form is the expression of love. Unfortunately, in our society we are barraged with artificial sexual messages as part of the control matrix. Our body consciousness finds most of these sexual "hypnoses" or impositions painful and offensive and extraordinarily insensitive to how it actually feels. We need something like the practices of tantric sex, where I understand traditionally one only engaged in intercourse once a month, for instance. Certainly tantric lovemaking, when done rightly, is a way of bringing the HM temporarily down to the sexual chakra, and that is an enormously healing thing to do. The HM will always guide us towards such Higher expressions of the lower chakras, provided we're receptive enough.

Dealing with the mind. It's not so much a matter of turning off the mind altogether as it is of transforming or replacing what had been the lower mind (which sees thoings from the outside only) with the Higher Mind.

What does that involve? In brief:

First always look, instead of thinking

The HM is the part of you that does the looking. This is in contrast to your analyzing/critical mind. We do need the latter as well. It's simply a matter of one of the two -- the looking -- always taking priority.

One final thing. You don't use your (lower) mind to make efforts to somehow pull down the HM. that won't work, though staying open for the HM to descend does help.

Andrew

30th October 2013, 18:38

You can download all Tuesday Lobsang Rampa's books from here (http://www.lobsangrampa.org/research.html#Te) enjoy.

TraineeHuman

1st November 2013, 04:18

What is the heart center, and how does it fit in with everything else? Firstly, I'd like to say I wonder if Joe's interest in the heart center has something to do with his astral travel experiences. When a person is traveling in their (4D) emotional body -- which is usually the case for most astral adventurers -- they're in a rather wild world. This is because it's a world built of pure emotions. While we are in the physical body, the physical acts as a type of shock absorber that kind of dampens the full force of our emotions. It also creates limits on our emotions. In the physical world, we usually need to travel to where another person is, or at least communicate with them by some means, before we can express an emotion to them or regarding them. But in the 4D world we are by their side (the side of their 4D body) instantly, the moment we think of them. I'm wondering whether Joe's astral travel experiences may have influenced him to want to achieve something in his physical world life that's more similar to the emotional expressiveness of 4D.

Leaving that aside, let's look at the (4D) heart chakra. This actually does a few things. Firstly, half of its intended primary function is to filter out negative emotions. That means not to allow negative emotions (sadness, anger, fear, etc) to reach its level. Secondly, The other half of its major intended function is it amplifies whatever emotional energy it does allow through from the lower chakras.

Thirdly, it interconnects with the physical heart, which contains many brain cells and has an intensity of energy about a thousand times stronger than the brain -- though considerably less structuring or capacity to handle thoughts. Fourthly, through the thymus gland it regulates the level of life-energy in the physical body, and the flow of that energy.

In pratice the heart doesn't succeed in filtering out all negative emotion, though. What it doesn't succeed in filtering out is whatever has been lurking in your dark side -- which might equally well be called your "blind" side.

For instance, anger comes up out of your dark side and into your heart because your heart is fooled by the positive aspect associated with anger. This aspect concerns wanting to be successful in communicating something that the person you are angry with is failing to see and failing to be receptive to. The dark side of anger exists because anger involves the use of force -- ramming what you have to communicate down the person's throat. The physical heart -- which is also a brain -- gets fooled because when we're angry we temporarily aren't conscious of the negative side to what we're doing.

So far I'm talking mainly at a 4D level. Notice, however, how the 4D world is the world of emotions and therefore, naturally and ideally, connected with the heart center. Similarly, the 4D mid-head and inner eye chakra/center is naturally connected with the 5D world of pictures, thoughts, and concepts. And this is just one example of how interconnected the worlds of 3D, 4D and 5D get.

At this point I'd like to digress from the topic of the heart center. because I'd like to talk about what did and didn't happen (so far) with regard to "ascension". This will illustrate more about how 3D, 4D and 5D get interconnected. The next post will appear shortly.

TraineeHuman

1st November 2013, 04:55

"Ascension" did in one limited sense happen over 2012/2013. It wasn't "Ascension" as many fans of Ascension had conceived it to be. What I observed actually happened was, Gaia progressively strengthened and extended her energy field, apparently throughout the planet.

Specifically, starting somewhere around July 2012, Gaia began transforming the energy field at certain urban and agricultural locations. The energy at these locations suddenly had the strong, rather wild energy that up till then had only been found in some wild natural regions.

That energy is very re-vivifying. Truly spiritual people had before then felt strongly drawn to Nature and wanted to spend time in such places. But from July 2012, some urban and semi-urban locations became fully re-charged with the energies of Nature at her finest, no less. This re-charging gradually spread. By early March this year, all locations seem to have become totally re-charged -- certainly, at least, in the parts of Australia close to where I live and work. For various reasons, I suspect this has spread throughout the entire planet.

I need to be more specific about what I mean by "re-charged". (Can anybody who's been noticing it too help with what facts they've experienced or observed?) One thing I've been experiencing has been that Nature spirits, and their beautiful type of life-energy, are now strongly prevalent absolutely everywhere. Even in the most urban "concrete jungle" locations. It's almost as if Gai has everywhere -- and I mean everywhere -- transformed supposedly dead bitumen and glass and concrete into what feels like beings that are intelligent and sentient.

I guess that (and some other phenomena I haven't found an explanation for so far) amounted to "Gaia going 5D". So, one of the things predicted by the Ascensionists seems to have actually happened. But humanity going into 4D or even 5D while still in physical form? Not a crumpet, not a crumb, of anything resembling that.

My own limited experience has been that Gaia's ascended energies did indeed clean away or dissolve many great negative energies in the 4D worlds. Energies which had no doubt been there for millenia. (I hate sounding anything like a channeler. But I have to tell the truth as best I know it.) Nevertheless, we are still vulnerable to negative energies such as the aftereffects of Fukushima, HAARPs, and so on.

It also seems clear that the new Gaia isn't currently strong enough (yet, maybe?) to neutralize the effects of certain mind-control technologies. For instance, one member asked me to attempt some healing of his chronic anxiety and depression. I discovered (I believe) for certain that he was a victim of the type of thing Dr Barry Trower has described -- though a slightly milder version of that than Trower describes in his videos. To experience what this person's situation was really like, I needed to briefly astral travel to the hell-like area of the lower astral that he was currently stuck in. That area still existed in spite of Gaia's amazing "rebirth" of 2012/2013. I don't claim to have all the answers about this -- really, just incontrovertible clues.

soleil

1st November 2013, 18:33

Before I tried moving out of my lazy mode and working meditation into my routine again, I went through a 3 or 4 month period where a particular recurring dream had hit me a couple more times: I'm always back at the place where I went to college. But it's later on in life after I've been well into my career. Almost like my place of emplyment has agreed to keep paying me while I'm at school. :- ) And it's the beginning of a new school year. The same thing always happens. I never go to pick up the form that tells me what time and location where each of my classes is going to be throughout the week. I know that there are a bunch of courses I need to be attending, and that I'm there to work on some kind of advanced degree, but I never go to any of the classes.
weird moment, you have described my school dream. i had one like this this week, i even became lucid, and thought "what are the odds this is actually happening in real life? it must be my dream!"
id love to hear what its about. i never end up finding out what classes im taking and where my classes even are, and its like 1030 in the morning on day 3 or 4 into new school year (feels like combo of college and high school)....so "im so behind". thats the feeling, except im never really rushed, i just always feel like im on my way to finding out what i need next. and i almost always need to find my shoes first ( after i get there too!), and that takes me everywhere looking for them too before anything else starts; and so i end up meeting up with others that give me comforting social feelings like im happy they are there, no matter who it is, ex or otherwise.

on side:sometimes my shoes are in my car in the parking lot. haha

re: communicating with plants...ive been growing an avocado from seed and have been communicating with her since her first bit of roots/leaves. so far i know she loves sun and hates when i turn her around and grow back towards sun. its good for her though :) its about almost a year in feb/march. since this plant ive increased the amount of plants i personally watch /help grow to 8. :dance:

one thing i just remembered. i dreamt that i had looked into a mirror and saw an asian face looking back at me. i remember thinking, " oh i didnt know i was going to be 'her' today?" and was just going iut and about with friends...strange.

tip:
ive been giving myself eye contact and trying to also gain my lowerselfs trust. (so i read) for about a month now. the result has been a greater dream recall and obviously the lucidity, but it hasnt lasted. im attempted obe nightly now as i quit my day job.

on and upwards!:becky:

Joe Akulis

1st November 2013, 20:26

TraineeHuman

2nd November 2013, 06:15

Sway,
I like to guess at some of other people's dreams and then see what TH says. Most of the time my side guesses aren't even close. :-) So I'm not gonna mention my thoughts on the mirror one. But I think I am now curious to see what TH's take is on the school dream. It sounds to me like you are certainly making strides, so the idea that this is a prod from our HSes trying to tell us that we're slacking off may not be as accurate as I assumed. *shrug* Neat little synchronicity there though.

There is no one single interpretation of a dream that's "the" correct one. This is because the HM sees things so wholistically it goes beyond polarities. Let me try to explain it this way. We've all probably seen pictures which show two faces but you only "see" one at a time. There's the one that's either an old hag or a stylish young woman. Or even the pictures where your mind has to "see" rotation occurring, and 50% of people will see the rotation as being clockwise, while the other 50% will swear with equal certainty say it's anti-clockwise.

Although competing "seeings" of the same thing will be inconsistent if entertained at the same time, if you take them one at a time it's clear they're both right. Similarly, you can and always do have two or more interpretations for a dream which not only are both right while emphasizing different aspects/parts of the situation -- but when your HM made up the dream it quite deliberately gave it the many different sides. And they're all true. The HM has a way of seeing them at once without getting confused, either. (Whenever get to read the akashic records, as you will at least after your physical death, you'll find you have no trouble listening to and understanding many different people's points of view on the same situation simultaneously, without any confusion.)

I love Zen master Joshu's metaphor for Source. He said Source was like a diamond with zillions of facets. Each facet (each flat "face") of the diamond represents each individual. Actually, the facet plus the whole diamond as well. Each individual is the whole diamond but seen from a unique and different angle. You could say that each individual is an "interpretation" of Source. Although no two "interpretations" are entirely consistent, Source manages to hold all of them at once and be all of them at once.

Every dream is expressed in the current context of the dreamer's life. For instance, sway's dream will be emdedded in the context of her recent major job change and the possible risks and rewards involved, plus maybe recent developments in her relationships -- with mum, with her fiancee, with her daughter, with herself, and so on. Joe may have had the exact same dream, but what's currently going on in his life may be totally different. Each individual needs to take their dream as a comment on at least some major area within their own current situation. It's also important to look at your dream as something that's calling on you to respond to what it's saying or showing.

Every dream is also asking you to respond to the honest facts about yourself currently. The only reason why we have trouble remembering or interpreting our own dreams is our egoic resistance to the truth. We may like to think we love truth, but sometimes when the rubber hits the road ...(well, you know what haoppens). To quote Jung: "No-one who does not know himself can know others. And in each of us there is another whom we do not know. He speaks to us in dreams, and tells us how differently he sees us from the way we see ourselves."

On the other hand, there are a number of universal symbols also. Schools and classrooms are one example. Generally, any building represents your life. It also can represent your entire mind or personality or body. A school is a building chosen for, and dedicated to, learning and personal growth. I guess any Avalonian, and their life, "is" a school building and therefore a school as well.

Maybe classes and classrooms can be interpreted as different areas of ourselves rather than as sequential scenes of some kind of learning that keeps advancing.

My intuition suggests, Joe, that a major interpretation of your dream that was intended by your HM was indeed that you need to stop kicking empty tin cans around and get serious. And kudos to you for having taken it that way and taken action accordingly.

My intuition suggests that isn't an interpretation that fits sway's dream. I'll post a suggested interpretation of that later.

TraineeHuman

2nd November 2013, 20:21

Before I tried moving out of my lazy mode and working meditation into my routine again, I went through a 3 or 4 month period where a particular recurring dream had hit me a couple more times: I'm always back at the place where I went to college. But it's later on in life after I've been well into my career. Almost like my place of emplyment has agreed to keep paying me while I'm at school. :- ) And it's the beginning of a new school year. The same thing always happens. I never go to pick up the form that tells me what time and location where each of my classes is going to be throughout the week. I know that there are a bunch of courses I need to be attending, and that I'm there to work on some kind of advanced degree, but I never go to any of the classes.
weird moment, you have described my school dream. i had one like this this week, i even became lucid, and thought "what are the odds this is actually happening in real life? it must be my dream!"
id love to hear what its about. i never end up finding out what classes im taking and where my classes even are, and its like 1030 in the morning on day 3 or 4 into new school year (feels like combo of college and high school)....so "im so behind". thats the feeling, except im never really rushed, i just always feel like im on my way to finding out what i need next. and i almost always need to find my shoes first ( after i get there too!), and that takes me everywhere looking for them too before anything else starts; and so i end up meeting up with others that give me comforting social feelings like im happy they are there, no matter who it is, ex or otherwise.

on side:sometimes my shoes are in my car in the parking lot. haha

What's actually happening at any time is that we keep repeating the same "lessons"over and over. Our HM is continually arranging our lives for that to happen. Actually, I've found that many people even manage to carry the same issues with them for lifetime after lifetime.

If you dream that you're repeating classes, that's good because at least you're managing to be aware that there's curently some important issue in your life that keeps coming up because so far you haven't faced it fully. Your gettig the dream now is good. It means your HM is hoping you'll look more deeply at what your current situation is revealing. Your HM is hoping you'll look deeply enough at it that this time you'll be able to resolve it, so that it will then stop repeating itself. Your getting the dream now means your HM is confident you can do this right now -- but it's all up to you, to how earnestly you're willing to be honest with yourself right now.

My intuition suggests the dream had the added significance for Joe that it was saying it's time for him to get more serious about evolving himself now.

sway's going barefoot has something to do with being willing to let go of her defenses (which are egoic).

one thing i just remembered. i dreamt that i had looked into a mirror and saw an asian face looking back at me. i remember thinking, " oh i didnt know i was going to be 'her' today?" and was just going out and about with friends...strange.

That dream was to do with learning not to worry about what impression you make on others. You have to be yourself, and others will accept you as you are, provided you find the right ways to communicate with them.

soleil

3rd November 2013, 00:07

very cool th. ive been having slightly more conscious mental/thoughts while dreaming. for example, i was in a chinese tea shop where i asked for tea. i must have forgotten my tea (and shoes as always) so i went looking for them. i went back, to the tea cart (wagon type) inside to get my forgotton tea, but managed to spill it on the floor. i got embarassed thinking theyd have to clean my mess, so i bumbled around for napkins to wipe my small spill. i told them it was me making an effort of quen xi (thats spelledwrong, its prounced something like quen shi), it means like trsuting friendship. i may be off, bc im recalling as best off the top of my head

soleil

3rd November 2013, 02:31

i wanted to add a couple funny ways i travel in dreams in dream state. if there are any stairs, its as though i have rollerblades on and i glide casually down the stairs rolling quite fast. if they are stairs on my way, its how i go down them.

there sometimes are elevators in my dreams (like last night i was going down a floor. but apparently i needed to take the left elevator, not the right.....because it wasnt going to go to the floor below that i was to go to) so i always tend to never go anywhere in them, as my destination involves going by "foot".

on occasion density messes with me (so ive read thats what it might be) and i must crawl/run/jump grabbing the ground/cement with my hands to get anywhere/away. i wish i can remember to fly next time....

and lastly, i tend to have maybe and at least 2 dreams per night...which ive barely been writing down...so im going to be taking them more seriously and i hope i can be diligent in writing them down.

ps, my school dream is never a repeating a class. more like a dream that i have that is almost ground hog day "like" as its the same scenario straight from the top, pretty often. maybe 3-4 times per yr or more. get to school, its 3 days or weeks into the curriculum. i dont know what ive signed up for but im looking forward to actually doing "it", ie taking it seriously. but etc ensues. :der:

TraineeHuman

3rd November 2013, 23:51

Coming back to the heart center, the HM has three points from which it communicates to us. The lowest of these is at the heart center, from behind. Anyone with their third eye not yet opened will be receiving the HM's communications -- or a vague feeling of them -- only through their heart center.

That's why "listen to your heart" and "let it be your lamp and your guide" and "follow your heart because only there will you find the true you / God" all really mean more than just listening to your heart center. It also actually means listening to your HM as best you can.

And if you're currently at the stage of not having the third eye opened. don't try to rush things. Because you can't develop greater receptivity and vulnerability if you're straining hard. If anyone here writes poetry, or composes music, or makes original jewellery, or paints or sculpts -- the way you wait for flashes of inspiration is an example of precisely how one needs to stay receptive to the HM's coming down to show itself.

Unfortunately, many intensive meditators, for the first few months, remember nothing after they come out of their meditation. Initially, in meditation -- or other direct contact with the HM -- they are in a state we can call a certain kind of "trance". But you won't recall anything until you begin to learn how to transfer some of what you get in that experience to your outer everyday life, where it will no longer be trance-like.

The reason why meditators don't at first remember their inner self is that they haven't learnt to accept such experiences. Those experiences are happening in their inner being. That will initially be disconnected from all body consciousness, so it may seem like "nothing". All I can do is reassure you that if you are getting as far as that disconnection from body consciousness, you're making faster progress than ever before. Eventually you'll start experiencing strong joy and peace -- and even get glimpses of the beginnings of Divine Love.

Divine Love is the love that the HM brings. However, everyone senses it and tunes into it slightly or vaguely when they feel ordinary love. Divine Love has greater power, and it's what can change the world.

Divine Love isn't an emotion. Not that ordinary love isn't a great thing. And the quickest way to develop Divine Love is to go to the max into ordinary love. Not that one doesn't get to such Love by going far enough in mediation. Divine Love is what everything is made of. It's like the air, in the sense that it's always everywhere around us. It's beyond all emotion, all ideas and all physicality. And yet it's hugely intimate and intense and caring.

It's a powerful force waiting for humanity to let it in so it can express itself. Gaia already has it, and lately has been doing her utmost to bring it closer to every one of us.

TraineeHuman

4th November 2013, 00:39

This raising of Gaia's energy grid... It's no coincidence that you are observing this right around the time that we are supposedly changing from one age to another, is it? Around the end of 2012 was supposedly the time (and there was another post on Avalon with some stuff from Russian scientists today confirming some of this) that our solar system moved into a more energic region of the galaxy. Referred to as the galactic plane by lotsa people. And it sounds like not only is this affecting us here, but also the other planets and moons in our solar system, and the sun too. I wonder if this also could explain why some people think "the veil is thinning." Could a more energetic region of the galaxy also bring a more energetic 4d space? Even if it's not a physical realm? Meaning, people who are working on spiritual growth work, like learning to consciously astral travel, or trying to develop a talent for healing, or trying to develop their 4d eyesight in meditation; around this time period we are entering, they are going to meet with much easier and greater success than at any other time in the cycle of equinoxes, correct?

Maybe you're quite right and it's been happening just as much to the other planets and to this entire region of space. That would no doubt mean that the Illuminati knew years ago that it was coming, and when it would come -- hence their haste, and also The Gulf spill and Fukushima occurring in advance of it, and so on.

But what did happen -- I believe planetwide by March -- in 2012/2013 was that Gaia created a permanent "field" of positive energies. I assume that includes "bio-energy", i.e. lots of negatively charged ["negative" as in electron-rich] ions, as you used to get in Nature but not everywhere else. This grid instantly wiped out and sent into non-existence many negative "grids" of "energies". Some of those "grids" were thousands of years old. I assume they were created by hostile rogue "ETs" or people -- such as black magicians -- acting under their influence or guidance. Some were man-made and recent.

There was a post made by AuCo in December on this thread, where he asked what was going on. Why had the 4D world been "emptied out"? That impressed me. An experienced and mature astral traveler, who had noticed the big picture of the 4D world. He was right, though presumably Gaia's "grid" was already up in the location where he lives.

Nevertheless, new technologies -- presumably intended by the ruling elite to feebly try to counter the effects of Gaia's "grid" -- are still able to cause physical and psychological (4D/5D) effects. Digital technology, wi-fi, microwaves. You still need a powerful solid-state ioniser to protect your home, and that, or shielding devices that really work, to protect you at work or out in the street.

On the other hand, this "grid" of Gaia's will have an effect in some ways similar to kundalini elevation for all humans worldwide. It's unstoppable, and ultimately undefeatable. Kundalini energy is Gaian energy that comes from the center of the planet and up your 4D body, hopefully as far as the oversoul point above the head. But it's individual, whereas this "grid" is planetwide, both in 3D and 4D at least. I don't have the expertise, as a dowser or studier of earth energies or any technologies, to be able to be much more specific than that. But I certainly expect to see plenty of 100% confirmation of this from such experts. It would take a huge misinformation enterprise to hide the news of this. And anyway, Gaia's "grid" is now there everywhere all around us. Deny it as much as you like, people will start to feel it. And everyone is being and will be affected by it, in a liberating sense -- even nasty 4D entities that are left.

TraineeHuman

4th November 2013, 11:53

while dreaming. for example, i was in a chinese tea shop where i asked for tea.

In all but the lowest of the 4D worlds, and higher, they don't have food, nor money. Instead, nourishment = consciousness, or at least = energy. When I first went astral traveling I used to find it really fun -- and something that took getting used to -- how in the 4D and 5D worlds others obviously saw me as very good-looking and wealthy. You can get used to being treated like a VIP, though. The reason I was treated that way was because I had lots of Light. In those worlds, fat, or big and wide anyway, is beautiful. My point is, sway, that your asking for "tea" represented asking for consciousness.

i must have forgotten my tea (and shoes as always) so i went looking for them. i went back, to the tea cart (wagon type) inside to get my forgotton tea, but managed to spill it on the floor.

I've done that heaps. It's quite normal to initially squander or not properly value the energy you're given or that you generate. Nobody ever did that worse than I did, for some years, in various different ways. Mostly many years ago. Sometimes you need to get really expert at how to do things the wrong way or fail, before you're ready to use things in the most constructive way. No big deal. I'm sure you'll learn how not to squander energy eventually. It's a bit like learning to handle money. After all, money is a form of energy, really.

i told them it was me making an effort of quen xi (thats spelledwrong, its prounced something like quen shi), it means like trsuting friendship.

So, you made it clear your basic intentions were good, and you understand the value of gaining greater consciousness, even though maybe you haven't quite gotten the hang yet of how to drive that racing car.

Joe Akulis

4th November 2013, 15:19

TraineeHuman

5th November 2013, 00:29

i wanted to add a couple funny ways i travel in dreams in dream state. if there are any stairs, its as though i have rollerblades on and i glide casually down the stairs rolling quite fast. if they are stairs on my way, its how i go down them.

In the astral worlds, travel is normally instant, and there's no gravity. Apparently some people do experience "denseness" in the lowest 4D level -- the etheric or "earthbound" level. But I can't remember ever experiencing that. Certainly, the general rule is that in 4D and 5D you get around by flying, and you get to your destination -- whatever or whoever you concentrate on -- instantly, in my experience.

there sometimes are elevators in my dreams (like last night i was going down a floor. but apparently i needed to take the left elevator, not the right.....because it wasnt going to go to the floor below that i was to go to) so i always tend to never go anywhere in them, as my destination involves going by "foot".

Elevators are highly structured and very rectangular and linear -- hence extremely rational -- and quite shut in and restricting, usually without windows. I wouldn't get in one in the astral either.

on occasion density messes with me (so ive read thats what it might be) and i must crawl/run/jump grabbing the ground/cement with my hands to get anywhere/away. i wish i can remember to fly next time....

OK, but you're now managing to pull away and get out of the density, rather than falling back into your physical body.

ATok

5th November 2013, 05:45

Hey :) Firstly I must thank you so much for this rich thread to learn from.
Yesterday I decided to master OBE's, from the first time I heard about it I knew this is the Holy Grail, but never took any serious decision about it.

I still reading all the threads including this one, so maybe my issues have been discussed but if so I will edit it then.

When I first started to meditate, I used to sit for hours and observe, mostly flow with the images.. At some point I became good at lucid dreaming, and could have an OBE after realizing Im aware of the dream, but at that time I thought that all I do is imaginary, so I mostly was flying around and visiting some castles in the clouds. After a while I felt like Im doing wrong the meditation so I read again what I suppose to do and how it suppose to feel etc, and realized that I really getting different outcome from what is described, so I quit all the OBE's and began mediating "properly". Only after a while I discovered what I was actually experiencing, but I didn't tried to practice it again since then.

Few years passed, I never stopped meditating, I have changed and experienced with different techniques.
Now from yesterday I tried about 4 times in different times of the day to do OBE. I know self relaxation technique so I easily can get to a state that my body so relaxed that I can't even feel it.
So I was laying down on my back fully relaxed, asked my Guardian Angels, Guides and Higher Self to protect me and help me in this, then I was chanting in my head "when my body fall a sleep, my mind stays awake", and I realized that Im staying in this posture for more than hour without any changes, from time to time there is some energy adjustment sensations that Im familiar with, nothing special. But, after about an hour (I believe) some parts of my body that Im laying on starts to pain, I tried to let go of it in thought that maybe its a test, but I suffered for some 20 min more and gave up because of no progress.

Now the conditions Im in:
My house is "handmade" XD in a sense that it is not a "proper" building but more a wooden summer house which enables me to hear everything around me all the time, and there is lot of action going on here (military planes, birds, cars, non-stop noise) all the time, even in the small hours of the night.

I tried the suggestion to lay on my back, but I must say this is very unusual posture for me because when I was a child I used to wet the bed almost every night, till at some point I tried to go to sleep laying on my stomach and since then I stopped wetting the bed, so I grew up to go to sleep on my stomach. If my intention is to sleep, no matter how much noise or distraction is around me, laying on my stomach Im off in 5 min. I can't recall the last time I fell a sleep laying on my back, I tried few times but it felt weird and uncomfortable, although that I could nap for some time when I started practicing Hatha Yoga, in the end there is a full relaxation guided by someone, I always felt a sleep even on my back, but after few times that I got used to the training it self it also stopped.

And the last thing that I feel like mention is that Im very awake and aware in my day to day life, it becomes even bolder for the last weeks, I choose to observe my life for some time and so I developed strong awaken state, not in the spirituality meaning but the physical. I can catch something falling behind me with my leg without even seeing it falling (Im still amazed my self), I pay attention to so many things that often I feel the urge to quiet my mind in meditation and still, since this awakening Im having hard time in meditation also because Im hearing everything around me, I can feel parts of my body having different sensations at the same time etc. Another thing is the pip in my head, I remember it strongly from the first time I felt this awakening, I have no idea what this noise about, but it ain't leaving me XD Its not somethings that distracts me, but its there, sometimes I even focus just on that to get some states, its like the noise you gets from the old TV's when the channel is blank and all you see is this "energy" on a grey\white back ground (if you know what I mean), really high tone that goes iiiiiiiii, I used to hear it all the time as a kid when someone turn on the TV, but now I hear it all the time and strong.

So, I tried also to lay on my stomach and chant, but the same, my body was fully relaxed but my mind felt like fully awake, to much awake, I was laying for about an hour, nothing happened and I was already tired and decided to try as I wake up and I did just before posting it, but was the same experience..

Any suggestions or insights?

Thanks again, and much love :)

TraineeHuman

5th November 2013, 07:17

When I first started to meditate, I used to sit for hours and observe, mostly flow with the images.. At some point I became good at lucid dreaming, and could have an OBE after realizing Im aware of the dream, but at that time I thought that all I do is imaginary, so I mostly was flying around and visiting some castles in the clouds. After a while I felt like Im doing wrong the meditation so I read again what I suppose to do and how it suppose to feel etc, and realized that I really getting different outcome from what is described, so I quit all the OBE's and began mediating "properly". Only after a while I discovered what I was actually experiencing, but I didn't tried to practice it again since then.

Hi, ATok! When a person meditates (properly), first they go inwards and then they go higher. When you were experiencing OBEs from while you were in meditation, you were going --putting your attention on -- outwards, on "the world out there", which was higher than the physical world because you had gone higher.

So, I believe the answer to your question is simply to do that. Once you get deep into meditation, simply pause and "look", or put all your attention on, what you can feel or "see" to be there outside yourself -- instead of turning inward all the time, as your meditation teacher would have told you you had to do.

Now from yesterday I tried about 4 times in different times of the day to do OBE. I know self relaxation technique so I easily can get to a state that my body so relaxed that I can't even feel it.

If you get to a state where your body is so relaxed, then you are already OB and in a higher world, even if you don't realize you are.

So I was laying down on my back fully relaxed, asked my Guardian Angels, Guides and Higher Self to protect me and help me in this, then I was chanting in my head "when my body fall a sleep, my mind stays awake", and I realized that Im staying in this posture for more than hour without any changes, from time to time there is some energy adjustment sensations that Im familiar with, nothing special. But, after about an hour (I believe) some parts of my body that Im laying on starts to pain, I tried to let go of it in thought that maybe its a test, but I suffered for some 20 min more and gave up because of no progress.

Pain means you are doing something wrong. It means you need to stop doing that immediately. Anyway, I don't think you need to wait for your body to be asleep -- but I may be wrong. And you don't need to lie on your back. For you, on the stomach is fine.

And the last thing that I feel like mention is that Im very awake and aware in my day to day life, it becomes even bolder for the last weeks, I choose to observe my life for some time and so I developed strong awaken state, not in the spirituality meaning but the physical. I can catch something falling behind me with my leg without even seeing it falling (Im still amazed my self), I pay attention to so many things that often I feel the urge to quiet my mind in meditation and still, since this awakening Im having hard time in meditation also because Im hearing everything around me, I can feel parts of my body having different sensations at the same time etc. Another thing is the pip in my head, I remember it strongly from the first time I felt this awakening, I have no idea what this noise about, but it ain't leaving me XD Its not somethings that distracts me, but its there, sometimes I even focus just on that to get some states, its like the noise you gets from the old TV's when the channel is blank and all you see is this "energy" on a grey\white back ground (if you know what I mean), really high tone that goes iiiiiiiii, I used to hear it all the time as a kid when someone turn on the TV, but now I hear it all the time and strong.

All of that sounds great. You say the way you are "very awake" isn't "spiritual", but I don't agree. I say the highest kind of spirituality is to bring your higher awareness and peaceful inner Silence into the physical world.

And I have also been hearing that high-pitched sound, for maybe four weeks now. Most of the time I hear it. At first I had trouble falling asleep for the first two nights. That high-pitched sound is coming from Gaia, and I know it's a good thing, but I don't know what it means. Some other people are hearing it too. At first it drives you crazy, but then you get used to it and it becomes almost normal.

Any suggestions or insights?
Thanks again, and much love :)

Before I read your post, my Higher Mind told me I needed to write the next two posts I will make shortly. The second one will simply describe how to relax properly, so of course you don't need that advice. But I'd like you to wait and read my next post, then please feel free to ask me any questions in more detail.

TraineeHuman

5th November 2013, 09:35

Astral travel involves the elements I'm going to list in this post. Successful astral travel/projection normally involves most and probably all of them.

As I've said in my previous post, if you're an experienced meditator like ATok, all you need do is get deep into meditation and then put your attention outwards, instead of inwards as you have been doing to meditate. That will be more than enough to "launch" you into an astral journey. At that point you shouldn't attempt to return to meditation -- or certainly not until that particular astral journey has been completed.

What if you haven't learned how to meditate fluently yet? Well, my next post will describe how to put yourself through a deep relaxation exercise. I once spent several years doing my best to teach people about meditation etc full-time. I found that quite a few who were new to meditation needed to start simply with practicing deep relaxation. That provides a great base for learning to meditate correctly.

My list of the elements of astral travel is as follows:
Relaxation
Concentration
Energization (and flexibility at handling pure energy)
Going inwards then higher then outward, i.e. Projection; OR ELSE: Transition from 3D to 4D (not via meditation but via the Vibrations)
Imagination
Breathing (while you're not fully OB; your 4D or 5D body doesn't breathe at all)

Now I'll comment on each element.

My next post will be about relaxation. From the HM's point of view, this has to do with openness and of cutting free from the walls of the (lower) self.

Concentration is to do with one-pointedness from the HM's point of view. As I mentioned in posts in February and March, concentration just on whatever is happening now is the beginning of awareness. Concentration also involves intention.

Unless you do it through meditation, the transition from 3D to 4D will involve intention and "turning all the lights off" and then at least partly turning a "new set of lights" on.

Energisation is really just to do with developing a small amount of mastery of handling energy. The exercise in post #10 is one example of an exercise which develops this. So is acting (theater), and qi gong, t'ai chi, aikido, judo, and indeed to some extent physical exercise of any kind if done intensively. As NancyV pointed out, it's also possible to get helpful extra energisation through using the appropriate magnetic equipment.

Imagination is to do with intuitive seeing whatever is there, without any preconception of what you will see. In this way it's quite distinct from visualization.

To appreciate how the breath is connected to going inward and surrendering to the higher, please see post #283 from February 3rd.

I would prefer people to largely find their way in learning to use each of the elements on the list. It's a bit like when an infant learns how to walk. They do it by lots of practice, and trial-and-error. For instance, do you realize that the way Western people walk is to put one leg forward then lean forward until they actually go off balance. Then they fall forward in a very controlled way. They don't fall over because the other foot comes swinging forward to break the potential fall -- even though we don't look at it that way, because we've forgotten what we saw when we were one year old and learning.

ATok

5th November 2013, 12:43

I am not sure that I meditate "properly" :) I learnt from a book called The Answer(Authors of The Secret), which may not be the best source to learn to meditate, but who knows I feel like it works :)
All I do is to relax deeply, including my mind, free my self from any thoughts and just feel, sense and observe the emotions and sensations Im feeling. Looking back I think that this is exactly what started me to lucid, after some self-exploration I focused on the outside, the smells, noises, feelings coming from outside of me.

Im not sure about being OB this times since yesterday, because I couldn't even go deep as I go in meditation, all I felt was the intense awaken state of mind, like when I open my eyes they are WIDE open, like having psychedelic trip.

When I said: "I developed strong awaken state, not in the spirituality meaning but the physical." I knew you will understand me right, but for the majority of people, especially "spiritual", the word awaken create different connotations but the physical one, I do also believe that to be fully spiritual as human-beings is to be fully physical, otherwise what is the point for the spirit to become physical?

About the high-pitched sound, I do not know what Gaia exactly means but I guess we talk about Mother Earth as consciousness, if so, I do not believe it is coming from her, and if it is, it mostly not a "good" thing but more than a scream of suffering and a call for help. I remember vividly hearing this sound from technological devises miles away as a little kid. Especially from the TV's, it is a synthetic sound and not a natural one. You know exactly how natural sound that comes from divine love sounds like :) And this is not it for sure.

I want to thank you once again, and send you unconditional love. I had an insight following our dialog.
Since the moment I began to meditate, my life started to change drastically, mainly my view of point about life and how I understand things. All I could think of was the increased amount of information I was reading back then(what I never did before) being the reason for this changes.. So I was comfortable with changing things in life according to new information I was exposed to, with time it created to some degree a dependence, seeking answers outside of me, and so many times I would feel disappointed and lonely because of my experience not being as described in the book.

The idea of me being God always resonated in my head, but as a kid being different from others wasn't beneficial to me so I tried my best to match the herd, but now Im realizing that I really do not need to seek anything outside of me, yes it true that some times my request coming in a form of a book or lecture outside of me, but most of what I can recall came from the inside, by insights and understanding without any background.

We are all unique and special, we are all Gods co-creating our reality, and therefore every person experience is individual for him, of course there is some guiding lines to certain group of souls, but mostly it very different. I come to know that my soul coming from different place than most of the souls on Mother Earth, I could see it since childhood but didn't want to face it. Because of some circumstances lately I had to face this fact and accept it, and to surrender and trust my self, my Higher Self, Guides and those pure entities devoted for our good and only.

I believe that all I need to do is what excites me the most at any moment, to ask my Guides and Higher-Self to represent me the opportunities for my desires, and to live, in a meditative state all the time.

Freedom is an interesting concept, most will define it as the ability to have infinite number of options, paths, choices, which I see lead to confusion, for me freedom is the ability to choose not to choose anything, this way I truly feel empowerment.

Thank you again everyone for your gift of sharing and spreading the light you are, they say humanity was given all the "bad" things possibly can be, but knowing and trusting the human spirit, we have been given Hope, and this is all you need in any situation in life.

peace

TraineeHuman

6th November 2013, 01:56

For the benefit of anyone who considers themselves totally new to meditation, the following is a description of a self-relaxation exercise.

Initially meditation involves relaxation plus concentration. Relaxation is a form of letting go, of as many of your physical sensations that will easily go, or fade somewhat. Strangely enough, the mechanical thinking process that goes on like a "chattering" inside you is also physical. You also let go of it, or at least make it go fainter.

ATok has mentioned that he can physically relax very deeply -- even though he lives at a constantly very noisy location. I said to him that when he fully relaxes, he must already be in the 4D world but doesn't realize he is. That's because if you totally let go of everything in the physical world (which is totally a world of sensation), anything you experience will now be beyond the physical level.

It's not unusual at all for someone to be OB and not know it. That happens for very brief periods (seconds) during the day for nearly everyone. Very early in this thread, gdelisle described a number of occasions when he did things such as what he thought was put his head on his pillow only to find that he fell straight through the pillow and down to the room on the level below, and so on.

Here's the relaxation exercise. Sit in a chair with a straight back. Or else lie down flat on a bed. If you're in a chair, make sure that your bottom and the small of your back are firmly pushed against the chair and totally secure, like an anchor for the rest of your body. It probably helps to have dimmed lighting or no lights on. Do the exercise slowly, taking at least ten minutes to complete it.

What you now do is really feel the sensation in each part of your body, starting from the feet and finishing at the head. so, first of all feel the sensation of the soul of your right foot, then your left foot, making contact with the floor. Get a sensation of where each foot is harder because there is bone there. Make your toes go very tense and hold for a few seconds, then release for a few seconds. Do this again four or five times.

Next do something similar with the lower legs and knees, then the upper legs, and so on. Your body should be divided up in this way into about ten or twelve different sections. In each section you tense, hold then relax the muscles a few times. You also try to feel where the bones or cartilages are and how it feels there, and any other sensations inside that section of your body.

TraineeHuman

6th November 2013, 07:22

"... this "grid" of Gaia's will have an effect in some ways similar to kundalini elevation for all humans worldwide."

This goes a long way to confirming my suspicions about what people are nicknaming "ascension symptoms." They always sounded a lot like things you would feel when reactivating chakras that have been dormant.

As I've explained some months ago, descension -- the HM coming down lower and lower into the body permanently -- is what I take it is happening to some of us. I see that as an individual thing. Similarly, before we can bring in the HM what we go through is an individual ascension, but I would think not in the sense the Ascensionists seem to believe.

It's quite true that in either case we need to persist against the opposing forces within us. These forces resist any major (and necessary) change. And they may remain "in power" over us to some degree for a long time. But I'd like to assume many are emotionally mature enough not to get stuck in depression ever, over anything.

All the "normal" varieties of depression should have little or no power over you, I hope. How else can you possibly handle the material in much of PA and remain balanced and maturely aware? It's decades since I've ever really felt the slightest "loneliness", for example. That's one example of a variety of depression that's really just a social construct -- something artificially created by the matrix of conditioning. It's a totally unnecessary and false emotion. Many Asian or indigenous people seem to be free of it -- unless they've been socialised into Western ways.

Also, in order to either ascend further or get the HM to descend further, even with Gaia's wonderful new "love is in the air" field all around us, you do need to get more specific insight, in detail, regarding the ignorance your own behavior shows. Again, if you get stuck in depression over that, you'll never progress. I've been talking about active, deliberate surrender to the Divine. But the Divine won't come anywhere near if the "house" is quite tainted by things such as depression.

Indeed, I would see the opening of the chakras -- either in the ascension direction or in the HM's descension direction -- as stages of major surrender of the entanglements our ego is hlding us in. And this is the same as letting go of more and more big chunks of our cherished personality. Plus a constant vigilance that we don't let in some fake Force other than the HM at any point.

This also involves the surrender of every last habit and selfish motive and way of doing things -- giving it away. Something better will fill in the space (as long as you're vigilant). But you have to keep casting your bread on the waters. You have to freely offer it all as a gift to the Divine.

If that's what people are experiencing as "ascension symptoms", that's great. But the very word "symptoms" implies a victim mindset that can't be anything but counterproductive to the supposed liberation it's part of.

What sorts of "symptoms" did you have in mind, Joe? What sorts of "symptoms", or dare I call them openings to something Higher plus phenomena of the ego's resisting, do you specifically see as occurring with the "opening of chakras", Joe?

TraineeHuman

6th November 2013, 08:31

Im having hard time in meditation also because Im hearing everything around me, I can feel parts of my body having different sensations at the same time etc. Another thing is the pip in my head, I remember it strongly from the first time I felt this awakening, I have no idea what this noise about, but it ain't leaving me XD Its not somethings that distracts me, but its there, sometimes I even focus just on that to get some states, its like the noise you gets from the old TV's when the channel is blank and all you see is this "energy" on a grey\white back ground (if you know what I mean), really high tone that goes iiiiiiiii, I used to hear it all the time as a kid when someone turn on the TV, but now I hear it all the time and strong.
...
Any suggestions or insights?

That noise is something you've noticed since you were a kid. That means you're unusually sensitive to some kinds of artificial energies. Maybe the reason why you hear it so often now is because you live so close to an air force base. Apparently Israel has very advanced military technology, so there could be something like an advanced kind of radar that your 4D body is hearing and then your brain changes it into audible sound.

One suggestion I would have is for you to try the basic method I use to handle any OB entity or consciousness that's trying to interfere with me or bother me when I'm OB (or partly OB). I send it positive, healing energy, plus a very clear, firm intention and message that it's trespassing in my space and I want nothing to do with it and I insist that it has to leave my space immediately, and never come back.

If that doesn't get rid of the noise, maybe you could try relaxing and then asking it questions such as what is it, and why is it bothering you.

If that doesn't work, please tell me and I'll visit you OB and see if there's some healing I can do, or at least identify what the source of the noise is. Energy in the astral is in itself neutral, but this energy seems to be clearly negative or even hostile.

Joe Akulis

6th November 2013, 15:37

[QUOTE=seeker1972;753228]What sorts of "symptoms" did you have in mind, Joe? What sorts of "symptoms", or dare I call them openings to something Higher plus phenomena of the ego's resisting, do you specifically see as occurring with the "opening of chakras", Joe?

I was flipping through a post on Avalon a couple days ago where people were talking about ringing in the ears getting very noticeable. Some were also talking about experiencing anxiety for no reason that they could explain. This one sounds like the butterflies in the stomach feeling. So, solar plexus chakra. My wife also had a pretty strong bout of the butterflies one night earlier last week. Other people mentioned their heartbeat. Perhaps some heart chakra effects. Headaches, those could be third eye or crown, possibly.

I've personally been dealing with the butterflies quite a lot, and then the forehead is there just about all the time now. I've been curious about the things I'm feeling, and think of them as a positive thing, so none of it has alarmed me. I'm just fascinated to be here and see all of this first hand.

You've recently suggested that the pressure on the center of my forehead was less likely to indicate a blockage as it is an indication that the third eye is open. Think this is also true with the butterflies in the stomach? Have I also mistakenly been treating this a a "fear blockage" and should stop trying to send it to source all the time? Rather just get used to it being like that, if it's just a sign that my solar plexus chakra is open?

I can feel the physical effects of the third eye, and the throat, and the stomach, but ... not the heart. I don't feel any interesting sensations going on there. Unless... Do you think one physical sensation of an open heart chakra is just that you can really notice your heartbeat a lot all day long now? I was just thinking my blood pressure was a little high and I needed to get back into my jogging routine...

Just some thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head the past couple weeks.

Joe

TraineeHuman

7th November 2013, 01:26

]What sorts of "symptoms" did you have in mind, Joe? What sorts of "symptoms", or dare I call them openings to something Higher plus phenomena of the ego's resisting, do you specifically see as occurring with the "opening of chakras", Joe?

I was flipping through a post on Avalon a couple days ago where people were talking about ringing in the ears getting very noticeable. Some were also talking about experiencing anxiety for no reason that they could explain. This one sounds like the butterflies in the stomach feeling. So, solar plexus chakra. My wife also had a pretty strong bout of the butterflies one night earlier last week. Other people mentioned their heartbeat. Perhaps some heart chakra effects. Headaches, those could be third eye or crown, possibly.

I've personally been dealing with the butterflies quite a lot, and then the forehead is there just about all the time now. I've been curious about the things I'm feeling, and think of them as a positive thing, so none of it has alarmed me. I'm just fascinated to be here and see all of this first hand.

You've recently suggested that the pressure on the center of my forehead was less likely to indicate a blockage as it is an indication that the third eye is open. Think this is also true with the butterflies in the stomach? Have I also mistakenly been treating this a a "fear blockage" and should stop trying to send it to source all the time? Rather just get used to it being like that, if it's just a sign that my solar plexus chakra is open?

I can feel the physical effects of the third eye, and the throat, and the stomach, but ... not the heart. I don't feel any interesting sensations going on there. Unless... Do you think one physical sensation of an open heart chakra is just that you can really notice your heartbeat a lot all day long now? I was just thinking my blood pressure was a little high and I needed to get back into my jogging routine...

Just some thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head the past couple weeks.

Joe

No, butterflies in the stomach is not a sign of the HM's descent there. Actually, at the beginning of 4D astral travel most people feel extreme discomfort and nausea, not unlike butterflies, in that area of the body. But it only lasts momentarily and then they take off. I managed to overcome having to experience any of that completely, but I had to free myself of the effects of my birth trauma, which is usually the most horrible experience in a person's life. The birth experience, I mean, though freeing yourself of its effects and the negative self-judgments embedded in it is quite an experience too. (That's not to deny that at birth the new child leaves a very, very powerfully positive energy behind -- separate from themselves -- at the location where they get born.)

The HM's descent into the heart area will result in a positive outlook and the ability to experience joy in many situations where others don't. It will also mean you'll probably be pretty free of any nasties in the astral world. That's because the astral energy is in itself neutral, but your positivity will keep taking you only to positive spaces there. You certainly write your posts like someone who has reached this point, Joe, and my intuition suggests you indeed have done so. Let me qualify this a little, though.

As in your case with the heart area, it's possible for the HM to stably descend to and remain at an area during most of the ordinary experiences you would go through in your week. But there will also be some unusual and very challenging situations where it is currently unable to be present in your heart area. My intuition suggests you do have some kind of blockage in the heart area, despite the HM's already having descended there!

The butterflies in your stomach, according to my intuition regarding you, Joe, are partly due to fears and partly to current insecurity about your identity -- which would mean big changes in career and/or family.

I guess I see now that what some people are referring to as "ascension symptoms" could be what happens because they are currently listening way too much to their ego's resistance to ascension. Hence experiences of anxiety and so on. So, Gaia may have "ascended", but I suspect these individuals aren't ascending, so far, on an individual level. Not if they're overcome by anxiety etc. Where is the inner Silence that wipes away the ego's power? Where is the willingness to go out of their comfort zones? If you do actually go into your discomfort zone head-on, at first you experience a little fear, but you burn it away in the quickest way possible if your're willing to stay with the discomfort. The fear is followed by some pain. Ditto regarding burning away the pain.

ATok

7th November 2013, 08:35

The thing is everything is possible.. It have been already few days since I back to meditation full power, like most of the day I just meditating, and Im getting more this insight, that everything is possible, and everything isn't. A paradox that says that the thought it self isn't real and just an illusion therefor everything I ever thought or thinking now is an illusion that Im creating, so my aim is to get free of all the concepts, beliefs and everything I ever knew or know at the moment.

Get a pure neutral understanding, to raise above the storm..

The noise isn't disturbing me, and I really don't pay to much attention to it, Im just aware of it.
But it will be a pleasure for me to have your visit :) You are mostly welcome with good intention and pure heart (It's for the protocol =P I say it each time Im welcoming entities.)

TraineeHuman

8th November 2013, 04:36

Before you fall asleep there are certain activities you can do. These will either increase the likelihod of astral travel (that you remember) or help you to make better use of your time in the astral.

One such activity is to meditate for ten or fifiteen minutes or more before going to sleep. Then you'll already have gone "inward and higher" before you put yopur head on the pillow.

Another thing you can do is to lightly out an intention in your head that while you sleep you'll work on some problem. You shouldn't go into detail about this -- just a very general intention, but regarding a specific problem. And lightly put, without effort.

At one time I was working full-time and studying for a degree as well. I found that all I needed to do was open a textbook at a page I wanted to read and digest, and leave the opened book in my bedroom not too far from my bed. In the morning I'd find that I had thoroughly read and digested the contents not just of that double page. I'd also managed to read and carefully ponder every single page in the textbook that had relevance to what was on that double page. How had I managed to read the closed pages OB? And to select all the ones that were relevant? Not only that, but I always had studied the material way more effectively than the way I did when awake. I also soon found that the more I did this, the better the marks I got.

These days I don't often read books, but I use something like this all the time. It's become second nature. You ask the question, go to sleep, and bingo! there's the full answer when you wake up. The question can be almost anything, any problem you have to solve in your life. Saves a lot of time.

If it doesn't work for you at first, keep on trying.

Crystine

8th November 2013, 05:03

As I explained in my previous post, OBEs don’t necessarily require any higher kind of “body” – such as an astral (i.e., 4D) body for you to travel in (or dare I say be in?) The traditional methods for getting out of your 3D body into a 4D astral body are quite tough. I would fail more often than not when I initially tried to learn them. Jake’s free ebook, The Book of Jacob, is available on this Forum. I haven’t read all of it, but what I have read is accurate. Jake describes the traditional methods, i.e. for learning to travel in 4D in your astral (4D) body.

I guess I used to astral travel (in 4D and also in higher Ds) lots of times as a kid, but didn’t realise I was doing it. At 24 I started teaching meditation full-time for two plus years, and in retrospect I sometimes astral traveled at a higher level (i.e., without traveling in some kind of “body”) without realizing I was doing so. But throughout my life I’ve found that astral travel experiences happen spontaneously for a week or two after any meditation retreat or, say, an entire weekend spent meditating intensively. So that’s one short cut I know of: intensive meditation, all day long. Or for days.

The only difference at 26 was that a few months before I had met an elderly man who wanted to mentor me in spirituality. Unfortunately he died within weeks of my meeting him. Then one night I woke up a few miles above the earth’s surface. In the first minute of that dream turning lucid I was still yelling out “Help!” to him and I caught a glimpse of him for a split second. He then disappeared and left me to my own devices. After that, I seemed to astral travel in 4D most nights. Usually I wouldn’t wake up until I was already OB. But from that point on I could control where I went, including return into my 3D body.

Then at 28 I joined a “psychic circle” for about 12 months. This was run by a lady who was in her eighties and had a beard. When she had been younger she had been President of the New South Wales psychics’ association for many years (New South Wales being the most populous state in Australia, with about a third of Australia’s population), in recognition of her outstanding talent. Some believed she had now gone senile, but I suspect she hadn’t. Each week she would take the entire group astral traveling in 4D. So: based on my experience, the best shortcut may be to get a teacher who really can easily get a raw beginner astral traveling even on their first attempt. I do need to caution, though, that it seems to me that most so-called professional psychics out there aren’t the genuine article. There are probably many who claim to be able to take you astral traveling, but can’t really. If they can’t do it to your full satisfaction in the first lesson, I strongly suggest you go elsewhere. There are many people out there who can teach you by throwing you in at the deep end, so to speak – and don’t worry, you won’t drown. You should be able to feel it for yourself. It feels like you are floating or flying. To answer Caren’s question, the type of “flying” I was talking about in my previous post was flying in pure formlessness, or half in it, rather than in the 4D world, which is full of forms and in which you can see everything in the 3D world as well.

I’ll make another post within half a day. My apologies, but I work full-time and am also in the middle of moving house this weekend. I'll try to answer anybody's questions. But there's also Jake's free book.

Can you shed any light on what may be happening in my dreams. I am aware of OBE's. I have been having them since I was a small child. The flying ones started about 25 years ago. As I understand them.....I went through a training period. Almost funny. You struggle to continually move higher. Sometimes the return trip is rather abrupt.. However, I believe some are chosen to help others perfect this skill. It cannot be taught. It is already within each of us. It is a matter of having perfect faith in yourself that you can do it. Learn that and you will fly.

TraineeHuman

8th November 2013, 05:13

I can feel the physical effects of the third eye, and the throat, and the stomach, but ... not the heart. I don't feel any interesting sensations going on there. Unless... Do you think one physical sensation of an open heart chakra is just that you can really notice your heartbeat a lot all day long now? I was just thinking my blood pressure was a little high and I needed to get back into my jogging routine...

A sudden increase in the life-energy flowing through the physical body can often lead to higher blood pressure, and/or to a seemingly louder heartbeart. Many people seem to experience that. The only solution that I know of seems to be to use one's healing energy to heal others more. If there isn't any specific person to heal, you can even (after setting up protection) release it several times a week to whoever is in need of healing and manages to accept the healing energy first, without you specifying who that might be.

As I've been saying, your "true heart" is your HM, and not your heart center. Anyone who has opened up the HM's access via the third eye may indeed be using their heart center less than most for sensing the "true heart"'s promptings. Bliss, or the joy that the HM brings, or Divine Love, isn't an emotion. It's not physical, emotional or mental, not in its central essence.

TraineeHuman

8th November 2013, 10:12

Can you shed any light on what may be happening in my dreams. I am aware of OBE's. I have been having them since I was a small child. The flying ones started about 25 years ago. As I understand them.....I went through a training period. Almost funny. You struggle to continually move higher. Sometimes the return trip is rather abrupt.. However, I believe some are chosen to help others perfect this skill. It cannot be taught. It is already within each of us. It is a matter of having perfect faith in yourself that you can do it. Learn that and you will fly.

Christine, I don't have the answers to all of your questions. I underwent a year of "training" in the sky like you, by non-physical beings all over the solar system and probably beyond as well. To me you're asking how come after such a training period someone who is or gets fluent at astral travel finds themselves with a "second job" at night, as some kind of cross between a social worker in the sky and a counsellor or guide. What I can do is describe some of my own past experiences. Maybe some of the conclusions I reached regarding what was happening, and why, may be of some help to you here or there.

When I first started astral traveling regularly, one thing that became clear to me was that it's just as hard for most people in the afterlife to see us in the physical as it is for most of us to see them -- particularly after about three years, by which time the departed are usually a long way away and hard to communicate with even if you know how to communicate. However, the exception to this was that the recently dead somehow seemed to have no trouble seeing me. It was like I was a lighthouse of bright light to them. They normally didn't realize I was living in the physical. Most of them would call me a guardian angel, and just matter of factly assume that was what I was and that role was what I could be counted on to fulfil. I found that amusing. However, several decades later I managed to ascertain that prior to coming to the physical here I had indeed been a guardian angel, and am due to continue in that role when I've departed from here.

It's quite relevant to talk about guardian angels here, because fluent astral travellers soon find themselves engaged in work similar to that of healing angels or guardian angels or guides, on rather a "full-time" basis at night while their body is sleeping. You ask why. Well, because you agreed to do that, even though you may have forgotten that you agreed. After all you were probably OB when you did. Basically, once you have certain skills it's normal to develop the desire to put them to use to help others in some big way -- even though you may never have expected this when you started out. Even though you may not be able to fully heal or protect someone who is suffering from the ravages of war or whatever, you can still do something for them, at an OB level. Because you are OB, such an individual could be anywhere on the planet or even the solar system or beyond.

I'll recollect some of my other experiences and describe them, and my conclusions, in probably my next post.

TraineeHuman

8th November 2013, 12:00

After I'd finished my year or so of nightly classes all over the solar system, I wasn't ready to help others properly at all, even though that's what all that tuition while one is OB was intended to enable one to do. I can see in retrospect that in my case , the reason for this was that I was interested in self-evolution at all levels other than the physical. To me at the time, the physical world was just a junkyard, a gutter, a sewer. I was interested in developing all sorts of abilities and skills at levels higher than the physical, but not in applying them in the physical. Hadn't Jesus said to gather up treasure in heaven and that was all that was important? Hadn't the Buddha said that everything in the physical was suffering? Yep. Why should I bother playing with the garbage much?

As a result my life in the physical around that time was always more or less in a mess. Most relationships seemed to involve too much of the physical, as did most issues of work and career. It seems, in retrospect, little could be done for me until I'd experienced the school of hard knocks sufficiently to understand that being an adult in this physical world required me to take that world seriously, and start applying all my skills with energy and intention and so on to the physical context, to things like career building and developing effective communication skills with all people. I mention this because I guess it's possibly one of the traps some others would also fall into.

This takes us to the time I joined the psychic circle. In retrospect I needed that circle, and the healing of my life that went with it, almost as much to develop my social and verbal communication skills at the time, as to develop my psychic skills. I already had loads of psychic skills anyway. In this circle, the teacher would take the entire group astral traveling. At the time I didn't realize how extraordinary a skill it was to be able to do that, and so quickly as well. Not only that, but everyone in the group could see the 4D scenery too, straight away.

After around two months I became aware I was sometimes traveling with the entire group on nights other than the evening when the psychic circle was held. We mostly seemed to be visiting war zones, and consoling those worst affected or even dying. I asked the teacher about this. She said she was giving the group work like this to do every night, and that if we came to her group we all had to make ourselves useful in this way every night. A few months later I stopped going with the group at nights OB, but continued to do similar work. I found myself drawn to specializing, when I could, in doing psychotherapeutic work OB.

As time passed I stopped trying to remember were most of my nightly journeys were to, or much of what happened there. It was usually much the same sort of thing, really -- but I'd still get a buzz out of doing it, every time. Finding ways to lighten the load of someone who had been through too much pain recently. Eventually I had clients who came to visit me OB overnight for psychotherapeutic healing sessions, and I almost stopped traveling elsewhere because there were enough individuals seeking out my services each night.

Joe Akulis

8th November 2013, 14:18

dpwishy

8th November 2013, 17:56

dpwishy

8th November 2013, 23:09

There is such an amazing feelings about being pushed that far and being able to come back. Our mind tells us at those times we will never come back and when we do we have a whole new level of understanding and appreciation. It happened to me the first time I went that far with psychedelics a decade ago. When you are that far gone the ego tells you there is no way you can come back from that. When you do there is this amazing feeling which allows you to go that far next time and know that you can come back. Its the same illusion and trick death plays on us. It happened to me the first time I had ego death also. I thought I died and that was it. There was no concept of I anymore, I was the universe, the whole. As I reassembled and came back to a body I realized through experience that there is no just thing as death. Its one thing to know you are eternal because it sounds/feels right or because you read it in a book. Its another thing all together to experience that you are eternal and the only way to do that is to "die" and reassemble.

Last night gave me the same type of thing. I had to go that far and come back to realize I can and that it would be ok. That this is possible without substances and is part of the human experience. To have that type of experience because you took something to make it happen is one thing because you are expecting that to happen. To have it happen when you are sober and out of the blue, scared the bag out of me as I thought I literally lost it for good and was never coming back. I thought I had a mental breakdown. I remember at one point I was SO GONE, I thought to my self "I couldnt get in a car right now, I would crash and die. How am I going to go to work?" Last night there was this spiral made of thousands of colorful eyes, kind of like Alex Grey paints and they were sucking me in and spitting me out. Such a frightening and beautiful experience all at once. I can't express in words how bat sh*t crazy I was. Absolutely gone in the sense of normal consciousness. What amazed me was how much it compared to altered states that are substance induced. I was dumbfounded all day today about this experience, I was speechless at work. The implications of this and where this can go in the future boggled my mind. I am still in awe.

I embrace my desire to
feel the rhythm, to feel connected
enough to step aside and weep like a widow
to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
to swing on the spiral
of our divinity and still be a human.

With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
I feel it move across my skin.
I'm reaching up and reaching out,
I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.

Spiral out. Keep going, going...

In divine friendship,
your brother,
-michael

soleil

8th November 2013, 23:28

dp, you are like me. i relate big time to tool, bc their music, its so spiritual. and gotta love that sick drumset....
you remind me of a dream i had, in dreamstate. i recall being in a meadow, there were hills and i saw everything, separately, each drop of dew glowing like crystals, on each surface of each blade of grass on the hill, and in the sky. if only for the different colours, like green grass, blue sky, the rest was. iridicent diamonds, that shimmers yellow, lilac and pink and gold iirc. my most beautiful (visually) dream. (from like at least 6-8months ago)

chocolate

8th November 2013, 23:33

In my opinion there is NO BETTER FEELING than the one you can feel totally sober and clean when you become aware of, as many as you can master, layers of awareness at the same time. For me OBE is still a bit of a staged experience, while just realizing the beauty and simplicity of what your human life is, is equal to completion of a cycle of existence. I have had glimpses of what this feels like, and I know it feels really quite powerful.
dpwishy, I am happy for you because you are gaining your strength and trust in yourself and in life back. Take it for someone who knows, being yourself is the best there is.

sway, you can listen to drumming only or rattle snake and you will be out, no need for anything fancy or spiritual.

TraineeHuman

9th November 2013, 00:06

"The only solution that I know of seems to be to use one's healing energy to heal others more."

Can you suggest any beginner exercises that I can start using? Are you talking about something like becoming more familiar with the energy centers in my hands and learning to use them to practice on small things, like physical things? For example, let's say my daughter pulls a muscle playing sports. Would that be good practice? Or are you thinking more like the kind of healing where it has more to do with people facing and forgiving and releasing various internal things? I've been stumbling around a little at attempts to pull off beginner healing work on myself, but I think I'm kind of uneducated on how to start.

To "set up protection", I can invoke my guardian angels, correct? or...

Seeker

As far as I understand, the opening of the third eye corresponds to (the lowest level of) enlightenment, which does release the ability to naturally use the golden light of Source for healing. That golden light only appears (or used to only appear) above a person's head after they had brought the HM fully down into their body to below their feet (which is the higher enlightenment, of the HM). It would become available for use in healing, though, once the third eye was open. But with Gaia's "grid" now active, there seem to be traces of the golden light in everyone's chakras and I haven't figured out yet what the new deal is. However, I don't believe it means that everyone has now become enlightened.

Before you start, you should protect yourself and the room you're in. I guess you do that by in effect healing yourself and the room first. Specifically, to do that you bring down (or, because you have the third eye open, it's enough to imagine you're bringing down) Light. Preferably it should be golden light. Plus, you hold the intention that the Light will remain and protect you and the room throughout the healing session.

Before you start doing he healing, you may need to cleanse the room of any negative or rubbish energies. You do that by "cleaning it out" with Light also, intensively shining Light into absolutely every little corner. Or you can have a kind of waterfall shower of golden Light falling on and cleansing every part of the room. including the ceiling.

If the person you're healing is physially there, get them to sit in a comfortable chair and close their eyes and imagine they're under a very shady tree on a hot summer's day. Stand about two meters in front of them. It helps to raise the palms of your hands and imagine there's Light flowing from them to the client.

Apart from that, just firmly keep holding the intention of healing the client for their highest good, and be silent inside. Plus "be one" with them, and with that intention. You step out of the way. Beyond that, you "do" nothing. You may be moved to move considerably closer to the client -- though don't touch them --, or to move your hands at different angles. Apart from that, let your HM do the work. None of that fancy mind stuff from the cunning lower mind.

Yes, it does help to also invoke Guardian angels to make sure you have good protection.

If you learn to heal a person physically, you'll find you're primarily healing them psychologically but you didn't initially know it. And you do that without trying to -- with an intention only to heal them physically.

All of the above is done wholistically. You already know how to do it. Keep it simple. The less effort you put in, and the more you just flow with it, the more powerful the results will be in the end -- to your great surprise.

TraineeHuman

9th November 2013, 00:51

I think I had my first fully conscious obe last night. I woke up from a sleep and couldn't move or talk. It felt like I took massive amounts of LSD. There was this feeling of altered state that I have never felt but on psychedelic drugs. There was immense fear. I thought I was being attacked or abducted. I literally thought I cracked and that I was never coming back. If I didn't have the experience level I have achieved with phycedelics, that experience would have been so frightening. I mean, it was but at some point I used my phycedelic training and just let go. I accepted I went bat sh*t crazy and thàt I was never coming back and just let go. Fighting it was to scary. I swore on awaking that it was a psychic attack as I felt an intense energy being pointed at my chest/heart. Like a frequency/wave was pulsing at it and I heard "whomp whomp whomp" every second or so as the energy would pulse. But i think this is feelings of obe and i just wasnt used to it. This experience lasted hours. It wasn't until I released the fear that I drifted off and then awoke at 2am back. Such an intense feeling. Now that I know there is a coming back from that, hopefully I can play with and explore this more next time without fear. I literally thought I was in the peak of a phycedelic experience and that I took so much that I forgot I took it. It's the only thing I could rationalize at the time. Any time I would try to think of something or use my imagination, my inner vision would take over and I would become even more immersed. So scary at first....

In divine friendship,
Your brother,
-michael

It's quite normal to feel the energetic connection to the middle of the chest and the heartbeat in initial experiences of astral travel. Whenever you're OB you're in a world where the energy is stronger (more intense, bigger) than what you're used to in the physical world. I suspect part of the reason for the phenomena close to the heart being so noticeable is because the physical heart itself stores and creates a large amount of energy. And suddenly there's the presence of a big energy (your 4D body) that's stronger than the physical heart's energy. That takes getting used to, and until one does get used to it, it's very noticeable.

As far as I understand, any drugs have the effect of being disconnected from the rest of you. And although they take you OB, naturally they create fear in you at least subconsciously, because they're acting like some foreign force that's not organically integrated with your conscious awareness. As a result that fear becomes part of your shadow and may sit in your subconscious unresolved. Because the drug(s) have kind of occupied parts of the gate to OB for you, once you do go consciously OB, as you did, that fear comes flooding into your awareness and because it's subconscious and connected to the entrance to OB for you, you can't stop it from overwhelming you initially. Or something like that.

You did exactly the right thing to burn away a lot of that fear as quickly as possible, Michael, so I'm impressed. I guess (initial) total acceptance is the key to everything, you could say. At least, as long as it's understood that total acceptance doesn't involve being a victim in any way.

TraineeHuman

10th November 2013, 12:41

To develop your intuition, one EXERCISE you may like to try is to use it to "tune in" to other people as much as you can, by being "at one with" them.

Normally, we only see another's facial expressions, perhaps a gesture or expressive body posture, and we usually hear some words from them and their tone of voice. From this hugely incomplete information -- which is kind of like a Rorschach inkblot -- we usually jump to conclusions about the other person. Actually we do use our "instinct" somewhat as well. But much of the time our impression of the other person is heavily colored by our ego, or by convenience. The other is just another "driver on the road" or "customer" or "child" or "female" or "male" or "employee" or "shop assistant" and so on. Who needs a matrix when we create our own voluntarily?

My suggestion, then, is to practice putting attention solely on what your intuition is telling you about a person. Much of what is called telepathy at least starts out in the form of getting a very general impression. Such as whether the person is at the moment sending positive "vibes" to you or negative ones.

If you do this, initially you'll get a shock. You'll discover how often others -- largely unknown to themselves -- have negative thoughts and feelings about you. Don't take that personally, of course. After all, most of this is going on in and from their subconscious. I believe this is a great exercise to try, partly because it teaches you to ignore the negativity of the ego. It also teaches you to put your attention on the good that's in a person separate from their ego. And also, importantly, because this will hopefully teach you how to do the same with your own ego.

And rather than asking you to cultivate your HM through practicing Silence, this provides a way you can exercise your HM, and in particular your intuition, in a specific activity.

One thing to be wary of, however, is that through doing this you may at times underestimate the negativity with which a minority of people may act. For instance, one thing I have experienced in a work context has been that others were jealous of me or felt I was too much competition for them, so that they felt they might look bad by comparison. This has occurred when I wasn't trying to compete with them, but simply to do a good job. Because I was tuning out attention on most of their negativity, sometimes they would be successful in setting me up to be a victim of some contrived situation where I looked bad. On the other hand, had I applied my pure intuition to understanding such individuals more thoroughly, I would have been able to better anticipate how they might have behaved. Although the HM tends to put a positive and often nonjudgmental gloss on everything, it does also penetrate to deeper underlying truth.

You need to keep practicing this exercise. It's not so much a matter of being able to put all that you "read" regarding a person into words. It's more just a matter of somehow tuning into their "frequency", and once you do you'll eventually pick up their thoughts and how their nervous system feels as a whole.

There's another benefit. The way to truly understand another person is through ego-free love. And that happens to be the way your HM sees others.

TraineeHuman

11th November 2013, 12:57

When a person dies, often they apparently see a very bright, huge light. Or else they see a "bright" and huge darkness, which I believe would probably amount to the same thing. What is that light, or that super-intelligent darkness?

Well, let's suppose for a moment that you had the role of being a creator, or co-creator, of a universe -- even one like this one, possibly. I'd like to ask you how might you best communicate or represent one of the deepest or highest "levels" or truths of reality? In particular, how would you represent or communicate pure, full Consciousness with a capital C? For one thing, such Consciousness would totally have the qualities of a subject as distinct from an object, to the nth degree. It would at least have the qualities of the purest, deepest, ultimate "I" , for instance. How to represent it?

Well, how about a very bright light, that isn't just a light but a very alive, very conscious Light? What else in ordinary human experience could be more suggestive of pure Consciousness -- which is basically the highest "level" of the HM? It's the "level" just before Source, i.e. pure Being or Universality. How else could it be that the most aware Beings choose to show the part of themselves that they project into existence in the physical as suns/stars?

When a person dies, therefore, they face pure Consciousness. How they respond to that very high level of existence determines where they head to after death. The question is, when you die will you be able to "see" pure Consciousness for what it is? Will you recognize it as home, or will you look for a home that is lesser?

Still, you may be wondering, how can we be both spirit/consciousness and matter at the same time? Spirit and matter seem at first glance to be totally different. Like black and white. But we don't live in a black-and-white universe. Instead, everything's connected.

I guess OB experience opens us up to the experience of more than just the very dense world of physical matter that we live in. It takes us a little closer to something nearer to "spirit" as distinct from matter. But how to have both at once? How to reconcile them totally with each other? And then when we die, how to separate the star from the mud?

Crystine

11th November 2013, 21:00

TraineeHuman

12th November 2013, 00:36

I no longer experience any confusion during an OBE. Nor do I experience the travel involved. I am suddenly consciously there. I used to keep a log. I don't any longer. I am so totally present to the task at hand, in the moment. I am as awake as in daily life on this plane. However, I can share one particular time I was sent out. I found myself looking in a large window. An elderly man was seated on the sofa, obviously in a great deal of distress. His children were gathered around. He was in the midst of a heart attack. But he would not allow them to take him to the car. He kept saying NO. Not until she comes. They told him no one else was coming. Then he looked up at the window and saw me. He laughed and told them HaH you are all wrong. She is here let her in. They wanted him to calm down. He did. And then he agreed to go to the car. Once he was outside he wouldn't let anyone sit by him. That was so he had room for me. Of course his family humored him. So Eddie and I sat in the back seak I held him in my arms. We arrived at the hospital. He and I left. He was very happy. I logged this one. Some time later I was going to some classes. I had some free time. So I brought out my log to make an entry. A young girl near me asked what I was doing. I explained to her about my log. She asked if she could look at it. So I thought, why not. And passed it to her. She was reading for several minutes when she burst into tears. Gosh, I felt so bad. I could not imagine what had happened. So I asked. She was crying quite hard. She said , you are the one that came for my father. He was so happy when he saw you in the window. She further related to me her recollection of his fussing about getting in the car. So I asked her dads name. She said Eddie. My last name is Eddie. I was there to be his escort. To take him on. He knew I was coming and he was waiting. Awesome responsibility.

I find it's a usually a wonderful experience and an honor to assist a dying person through and into their death. To me personally, death is the most beautiful and wonderful thing there is -- though I'm sure if I was foolish enough to commit suicide it wouldn't be wonderful. Not that I ever would commit suicide, of course.

While awake I also prefer, like you, to stay largely in my physical body while I project into some other dimension. I don't keep a log of any kind, though. I also don't remember most of the work I do while sleeping. I'm pretty sure many people do helping/healing work in the astral while they sleep, but don't remember it at all. For many years I have often specialized in psychological healing. Whereas psychotherapy involves a mixture of analysis and intuition, the work I do in the astral seems to be 100% intuition -- which is kind of vaguer but it's much more wholistic. Everyone has their own style. Mine involves usually relying on my HM as much as possible.

Usually I only "go lucid" if something unusual goes on. For instance, my mother died nearly thirteen years ago, and for about six months before she died she would come kind of barging in as soon as I fell asleep and demand to be the first client I worked with that night. She had a great deal of fear regarding death. When she did this, I would briefly "go lucid", and try to negotiate with her because my "client chair" had already been booked for so-and-so and then someone else after that. Sometimes she would yield the "chair" and wait her turn, and sometimes not. But I seemed to need to "go lucid" to handle the situation properly.

The types of work I do in the astral at night have evolved considerably over the years. And one does have considerable freedom to specialize or choose. Don't be surprised if you're all also doing spiritual "social work" of some kind at nights, folks.

TraineeHuman

12th November 2013, 01:04

There is such an amazing feelings about being pushed that far and being able to come back. Our mind tells us at those times we will never come back and when we do we have a whole new level of understanding and appreciation. ... As I reassembled and came back to a body I realized through experience that there is no just thing as death. Its one thing to know you are eternal because it sounds/feels right or because you read it in a book. Its another thing all together to experience that you are eternal and the only way to do that is to "die" and reassemble.

I sure wish everyone would allow themselves to totally let go like that. If they did, they'd experience Source.
It's so incredibly simple -- once you really know how to do it.

TraineeHuman

13th November 2013, 00:43

More about why memory -- and hence "lucidity" -- may not be all-important, as far as I'm aware.

Let's take a look at the Self, by which I mean what amounts to the lowest "level" of Source. To get a better idea of what I suggest the Self is like, let's consider white light -- of the ordinary physical kind. We know from physics that white light is a combination of all the colors of the rainbow -- all of them occurring together, in the same time and place. Our eyes don't see this combination, but only see white, unfortunately. Imagine, though, that you had maybe a second kind of physical sight. One which made it possible for you to see both all the colors of the rainbow as they do actually occur wherever there's white light; and at the same time to see the white light and to somehow know by direct experience that the white is simply the combination of all colors.

If we had such a second kind of physical sight then we would see that white light is an "everything" light. That it does in quite a few ways give the benefits of having each of the various colors, combined. It's something that's more than, and not less. In an analogous way, the Self has various qualities of "everythingness", such as timeless eternity. Because the Self is timeless, we may mistakenly suppose that for it time is meaningless. Not so. Rather, the Self is greater than time itself. And the Self has, or certainly can have, time itself as one of its qualities. And obviously, it may treat time itself as something that it can play with in various ways, or as something that's just reflected within it.

This quality of everything-ness, of being more than and not less, also applies to formlessness as opposed to forms of any kind. The whole notion of everything-ness, let alone formlessness, seems very slippery to grasp. You have to experience it. When you do, you know. You know that it's indeed more, that you haven't lost anything except what was worth losing anyway. And if you only have the memory of this "more than", that's only small change. It's no substitute for being more than, experiencing more than.

powessy

13th November 2013, 04:43

I have spent my whole life having obes but when I listen to others their descriptions of obe is not the same as my experiences this confuses me. I have had thousands of obes over the last 30 years and I have had close to as many vivid dreams each of which are completely different experiences and then I have had high vibrational experiences which are of a completely different nature and then there is the other place just between the eyes a place that is always present but I have long avoided till now. An obe is in the here and now you are floating over your own body and can move freely around known objects the only thing is that in most of these experience for me items are not in the same place or items are changed in color or appearance. I have tried to explain to many how to reach this experience but I think only certain people are capable of this of which I have meet none. As far as vivid dreaming this is usually at the end or the bottom of my obes when I relax and renter my body these dreams have taken me to places that I have never seen swam in oceans with marine life that doesn't exist on earth and viewed maps of terrain that i still try to compare with maps on earth but there is just no such place I have rode upon tornado type dust devils and have been accosted by several entities that just right down scared me, I have walked and played in houses that I have never been in and seen objects that I have never before seen here on earth, I have had so many wonderful experiences and trips but these are not obe. I have had higher vibrational experiences these fall before obe these have only happened five times in my life once each when I saw my two boys pryer to their births and once for my twin daughters and then once for my spirit guide this was my first time and then the last time was about six years ago when he died kind of, anyway long story but I met his replacement. I'm not one for sharing and usually work things out on my own but something has stirred inside of me lately. the other place I see all the time all my life a place that just stands clear if I look deep enough within myself my wife thinks this is strange but hasn't had me committed yet and then there is this place I can look inside of my head organize and build entire places build walls and rooms to store memories along with other things but lately I tore them all down and made a beautiful court yard out of them and planted a tree in the middle the brick from the walls I hid in as a child became a spiral floor design beware the edges their not complete imagination reality who knows but it is a place that makes me happy now.

Jake

13th November 2013, 06:13

TraineeHuman

13th November 2013, 12:45

Hi, powessy. I agree with you that absolutely everyone's experience of astral traveling seems to be rather different, even though there are commonalities. Does that need to be confusing, though? Also, what many people, including myself, see as OB covers considerably more than astral travel. But even the astral world has a number of distinct levels. Each level is a whole vast world in itself, rather like the whole physical world is. My experiences of the physical world may be quite different from yours, and they've depended hugely on some of my choices or failures to choose.

It sounds like you've preferred to explore the levels closest to the physical world. I wonder if you'd be willing to consider exploring higher levels than those? I'm saying that because after I had regularly been astral traveling most nights for about two years, I read somewhere how experienced travelers recommended traveling in what I've been calling the fifth dimension as distinct from what I call the fourth dimension. To oversimplify somewhat, the fourth dimension is made of magnetism and emotions, while the fifth is made of electricity and pictures or thoughts or symbols. It took me a prodding several months later from two other individuals I met who were experienced astral travelers plus then reading a second book about it before I tried traveling in that higher world. It was far more pleasant and satisfying, and required much less effort. If you can already astral travel, often it's suggested you can learn to "fly" in the 5D world by attempting to "fly" through abstract things like thoughts or pictures or concepts. And lo and behold. You discover that there's a whole world made just out of those things. After I learnt to "fly" in that world I didn't want to go "flying" much in those lower worlds, unless there was a reason to do it, such as helping someone in some way.

I don't see your interest in frequently astral traveling as unnatural or strange in some way, not at all. When you consider that we're all ultimately infinite spiritual beings temporarily putting nearly all our focus on the bio-electro-chemical robot we know as our physical body, that's kind of crazy, isn't it? Or at least it's unbalanced.

Also, I'm sure some members would love to hear you describe your method for how they can maybe learn astral travel.

And I'm sure everyone would love to hear something more about what you mean by "the place between the eyes". It sounds maybe like you have your third eye opened, though maybe you aren't familiar with that terminology.

It's also great to feel how much passion you have for astral traveling.

Freed Fox

13th November 2013, 16:28

I had an OBE last night, hope you all don't mind me sharing it here (since it is a pretty lengthy account).

------------------------------------------

Initially, I was having a nightmare (rare for me these days, but still come around every now and then). It involved a killer whom I was trying to escape from. Toward the end of this dream, I was riding a train over a stream and through a darkened tunnel. I knew he was waiting up ahead though, quite like a scary movie in which you can predictably tell when something bad is about to happen. I then had a sudden insight; why am I even here? I simply thought, "just wake up."

So I did, or thought I did. I was in bed with my vision mostly obscured by my makeshift blindfold. I reached up to take it off, but found that for some reason I couldn't. I tried again, and realized that the reason I seemed unable to do so was because I was engaging in astral movement rather than physical. So I rolled with it, and instead of trying to wake up fully or shift to moving my physical body, I applied my current effort to getting up and off of my bed, which I did.

I was now standing there in my room, knowing this was OB, but I still had about 70-80% of my field of vision obscured. This, to me, seems very strange; I don't know how to account for it exactly. Is it possible that the t-shirt I wear over my head has an astral double?? Or was I projecting one out of my own expectation that it should still be there?

At any rate, I figured trying to pull it off myself was folly so I tried something else; I said aloud; "Clarity now." Nothing. I tried it again several times, increasing the insistence and volume behind my voice each time. The last time I changed it to, "I wish to see with clarity now!" Still, it didn't seem to work. I decided to try something slightly different and shouted instead, "I go to my higher self now!" Rather Buhlman of me, I know ( :p ). I'm not sure why I went with that approach, as I'm not the closest adherent to his body of work or methodology. It was just the impulse that came to me, not wanting to waste any time but also wanting to stay with the experience and not become too critical/analytic about it. After a few times making this declaration, I noticed a bright golden ball of light in the center of my field of vision (which still seemed to be mostly blocked). It wasn't very big at all, but it had an appearance which looked to me as though it was at the end of a long tunnel stretching out straight in front of me (so, as if it was far away rather than actually small). It had streaks of light sprawling out from the center, much like what you see when you squint at a bright streetlamp or other such light source.

I then heard a voice addressing me. It was a woman, speaking softly in a rather soothing tone, but hers was not a voice which I recognized as anyone I've ever known. However, as soon as she began to speak, I heard a number of other voices simultaneously carrying on around me. It was very much like a crowded restaurant, in which a small-moderately sized crowd is yammering on all at once, carrying on multiple conversations simultaneously. This effect, as you know, results in a sort of white noise such that even though you can hear individual voices, you can't really make out any specific words or sentences unless you really focus in on one voice.

Well, I did my best to hear her over this inexplicable racket, but I was only able to make out two things she said:

"You could die in the next three months..." (I am unsure if this was a warning, concerning the possibility of death, or rather simply an explanation of some sort. As in, 'if you happen to die in this specific span of time, then...' At any rate, she seemed fairly unemotional about it, but in a kind of pleasant way. I personally felt no particular emotion whilst hearing it, other than the mild frustration and confusion stemming from not being able to hear clearly).

"...if the link is broken..." (Since I lack the greater context of what she was telling me, I cannot even guess... but this followed shortly after the first quote above).

I then had a sensation that felt distinctly like landing on my feet, back in my room where I had been before. This is despite the fact that I was never aware of leaving in the first place, but it does seem that I had visited the golden light rather than the other way around. Now, I no longer saw the golden light but I could still hear the woman's voice. She wasn't talking any more, however, but instead was singing. Frustratingly, there was still a white noise of sorts, inhibiting my ability to hear her, but it was no longer the sound of other people talking but rather a more generic/less identifiable white noise. Again, I could only make out two lines but at least this time they were consecutive and uninterrupted;

"Find the light that's shining through,
Nothing dark will come to you."

As she was singing, I saw a light coming from under my bedroom door. This time it was a clear white light - almost fluorescent - rather than gold-colored. As if heeding the words of her song, I walked closer to my door, intending to open it. Suddenly, a thought crept in from the back of my mind, and I believe it was tied to my (limited) understanding of the astral, and how dreams are tied to the same world which I was now in. The thought was; "What if I slip back into that nightmare? What if I open the door, and the killer is standing there?"

As this thought occurred to me, I suddenly noticed that I was holding something; what appeared to be an ethereal sword, almost formless but made of white light which looked remarkably similar to that which was shining in from somewhere on the other side of the door.

Finally, I opened the door and on the other side, there was an amorphous blob of darkness, like a living shadow. It immediately came towards me. I didn't really react; I did nothing more than hold the sword out in front of me, standing still. The dark mass proceeded to impale itself on the sword, subsequently dissipating. Shortly following this, I became strangely light-headed and fell back. I'm not certain why this happened, but it was not in any way as distressing as it may sound.

As I fell, my head was turned up. Such that when I landed (on my back), I was looking toward the horizon which had been behind me before. It seemed that during the brief fall I had gone at once from my home to an open, grassy field. By the way things looked, it appeared as though it was late in the evening (judging by the way light was cast upon the grass). However, it was more like an artificial twilight of sorts, and the sky was filled with moving, undulating shadowy 'vapors'. I beheld this sight calmly for only a second or two, before I felt a strong 'butterfly'/'roller-coaster' sensation and was lifted off of the ground and into the sky.

What I saw there was a beautiful star-filled night sky. The stars, however, were much more numerous than on even the clearest night, away from the cities here on Earth. Some of them actually were close enough to make out details aside from being merely shining points of light. A few galaxies were visible among the field of stars strewn out before me. I took this in for a few seconds more, before suddenly a number of symbols appeared, as if an overlay. They appeared quickly, and before I had a chance to study them, I was thrust back into my body and woke up. The only symbols I managed to look at in that very brief window appeared to be a fish and a goat's head. This leads me to believe they were symbols of the zodiac/astrology (further, from the fleeting glimpse I was given, I would estimate that there were around a dozen symbols there). The reason behind this puzzles me, as I have limited knowledge of astrology, and although I don't discount it necessarily, I haven't previously put a lot of stock in it either.

------------------------------------------

I would very much welcome any thoughts on this experience... the encounter with the sword of light struck me particularly as a kind of visual/experiential metaphor; that if one carries the light and does not give in to fear, the darkness has a way of defeating itself (considering that I did not strike the shadow or even try, but merely stood my ground).

Also, I should note that in line with the advice TH was giving on the previous page (post #1302) I had meditated just prior to falling asleep last night. Got some very energetic sensations around the third eye area too... Just for what it's worth, and to add to the 'OBE database' that this thread in some ways functions as. :)

learninglight

13th November 2013, 18:48

soleil

13th November 2013, 22:53

yep,i believe around the beginning of this thread (th always knows) theres some posts about images like that.

that being said, ive had a few (which ive shared here) and they are intricate, arent they? :D

Crystine

13th November 2013, 23:18

Welcome powessy, amazing journey you are on. Many thanks for deciding to share. There is a reason, after all this time, you have decided to speak up. Again, thankyou.

TraineeHuman

14th November 2013, 01:36

Hope it's ok to jump in here :)

I haven't experienced an OBE but have a question if anyone can help plz

I have had the sensations that are described for OBE ( i think ). My body vibrations are more like tingling sensations; and i have had the feeling of i'm about to 'pop' out so to speak, this is not me trying to have OBE just concentrating on my breathing as i go to sleep, but i stop myself as i don't feel ready yet to 'let go'. Want to keep this short so will cut to the chase

Last night i did the usual routine, concentrate on my breathing to go to sleep, the vibrations or tingling sound in my ears was amazing and i could feel/sense a whitish light, then i became aware of the feelings and pulled myself out of it.
I settled myself again and this time the whitish light appeared and then an image of a monk, or budda looking man, just him from the shoulder line up, he was young about 20ish, he looked so calm. Well with this i woke up, (although i didn't feel i was asleep but this image had come to me) I lay saying to myself 'wow! wtf! that was sooo cool!!

As i said i'm not having an OBE, it's like i'm somewhere else in my mind, i find it hard to put into words what happened, maybe i'm just nuts haha

Has anyone else experienced this 'vision' and is it to do with the OBE in anyway?

The man you are seeing is a guide (or possibly a guardian angel). I first learnt how to astral travel through a guide who was a wise elderly man I knew who had recently died. He had intended to give me personal tuition in spirituality and in psychic development, but he got ill and died before we really started. Your guide, Sharon, is there to teach you how to astral travel and advise you and protect you. That is the very easy way to learn to do it. Why not try going along with what he wants to teach you? The white light tells me he's a good guy and has considerable consciousness and power. Many people have trouble seeing anything or anyone when they initially learn to astral travel, but you wouldn't have that problem.

By the way, it certainly sounds like you did astral travel but you didn't think you were. What else could it possibly mean to say: "...I woke up, although I didn't feel I was asleep"?

powessy

14th November 2013, 02:34

I would like to say hello to everyone here and thanks for taking the time to read my post. First of all Trainee human I have ventured to levels many of you are not even aware of and have seen things that are imposable to even imagine the trick to successful obe is to lower your heart beat as low as possible then start at you feet and try making yourself as light as a feather work up words taking deep breaths continuing to slow things down eventually you should only be able to feel your heart beating you should almost feel paralyzed this is ok try and keep your eyes open as long as possible until all the noises fade I try to imagine being a bird or a cat so that when I leave my body I can move about. Freed fox you have had a successful obe the later part with the sword is vivid dream. The vale over your eyes is for your protection all the( this will sound weird) chosen have this vale over their eyes actually a chakra mesh of sorts black and white mesh pattern you will not be able to remove it till April 1st. we are currently on the last day of the three days of darkness this is what she was trying to tell you stay out of the dark light a candle. I want to explain more but I feel as though I must try and prove what I'm saying first. The voices you heard are the voices of the chosen you are all together in a safe place away from the darkness as long as I can hold it. I would like to show you something it will come in the form of three something and secondly have you ever learned the muscle test it is in the form of yes and no questions try looking in that place in your head just between your eyes and ask a question try seeing the response the only people you will be able to talk with will be the chosen their are no bad souls or evil thing where the chosen reside, trust.

Kalamos

14th November 2013, 03:19

..........

Freed Fox

14th November 2013, 04:14

Hi powessy, welcome to Avalon!

[...] a chakra mesh of sorts black and white mesh pattern you will not be able to remove it till April 1st. we are currently on the last day of the three days of darkness this is what she was trying to tell you stay out of the dark light a candle.
[...]
I would like to show you something it will come in the form of three something...

I don't want to press you or anything, but you've gotten me curious. Any chance you could elaborate on the above? I'd like to better understand where you're coming from. I appreciate what you said about wanting to prove the validity of what you're bringing to bear before you go into too much explanation though, so that is of course welcome as well. That takes us to the last line I quoted from you; just wondering, but when you talk about something coming 'in the form of three', are you talking about showing us something here on the forum, or elsewhere? Perhaps by way of astral travel, even? At any rate, whatever you're comfortable with... and again, welcome. :)

Calamus; I believe that when those sensations begin, it's optimal to proceed by engaging in some form of 'exit technique'. If you haven't read it yet, Michael Raduga describes these in The Phase. (http://obe4u.com/files/the_phase.pdf) <------- (large .pdf document).

It seems to vary with different people, though. For instance, it seems very common for people to report an exaggerated buzzing sound when entering the phase, but I've never had that happen personally.

Also, yes; I definitely think meditating just before sleep is a good move, and conducive toward instigating OBEs. Of course, it isn't a guarantee.

Anyway, best of luck!

powessy

14th November 2013, 04:28

Freed Fox I wish I could explain the complexities of this issue at his time but I need to think about it more, I am getting an overload of messages that keep interfering with my balance. I am transmitting a set of 3 numbers try and focus on them in your head, try to see what your soul is telling you don't over think it just see it your sole will guide you, try the yes no approach each of the numbers are under 10 but is in a sequence of 3 start with 1 through 9 and let yourself see the answer. I will put the answer in (spirituality -> the second coming -> post # 23

TraineeHuman

14th November 2013, 12:40

I had an OBE last night, hope you all don't mind me sharing it here (since it is a pretty lengthy account).

------------------------------------------

Initially, I was having a nightmare (rare for me these days, but still come around every now and then). It involved a killer whom I was trying to escape from. Toward the end of this dream, I was riding a train over a stream and through a darkened tunnel. I knew he was waiting up ahead though, quite like a scary movie in which you can predictably tell when something bad is about to happen. I then had a sudden insight; why am I even here? I simply thought, "just wake up."

So I did, or thought I did. I was in bed with my vision mostly obscured by my makeshift blindfold. I reached up to take it off, but found that for some reason I couldn't. I tried again, and realized that the reason I seemed unable to do so was because I was engaging in astral movement rather than physical. So I rolled with it, and instead of trying to wake up fully or shift to moving my physical body, I applied my current effort to getting up and off of my bed, which I did.

I was now standing there in my room, knowing this was OB, but I still had about 70-80% of my field of vision obscured. This, to me, seems very strange; I don't know how to account for it exactly. Is it possible that the t-shirt I wear over my head has an astral double?? Or was I projecting one out of my own expectation that it should still be there?

Darkness means a lack of awareness. It's quite possible there's some reason why a "veil" of darkness, or semi-darkness, might be placed on a person or people for purposes of protection. I don't know anything specific about such a veil. On the other hand, I do know that Gaia has upped her energies enormously during the last year or so to make the planet a considerably more positive place as far as earth energies are concerned. I guess if people aren't ready to accept the full implications of that, there could be a temporary veil in the astral worlds to give people time to make themselves ready to handle those implications at some future time -- which could then be in April as powessy says. Gaia has changed here energies so much, and for the better, it's hard to keep up with.

Darkness on an individual level would mean that the individual isn't willing to face something fully at the time. You ran away -- hence were unwilling to face -- the killer, who was some kind of "killer" aspect of yourself. Not necessarily a murderous or violent aspect, but quite likely an aspect that wants to make some big change for the better to your life's course.

At any rate, I figured trying to pull it off myself was folly so I tried something else; I said aloud; "Clarity now." Nothing. I tried it again several times, increasing the insistence and volume behind my voice each time. The last time I changed it to, "I wish to see with clarity now!"

Which "I"? Not your HM, at this point.

Still, it didn't seem to work. I decided to try something slightly different and shouted instead, "I go to my higher self now!" Rather Buhlman of me, I know ( :p ). I'm not sure why I went with that approach, as I'm not the closest adherent to his body of work or methodology. It was just the impulse that came to me, not wanting to waste any time but also wanting to stay with the experience and not become too critical/analytic about it. After a few times making this declaration, I noticed a bright golden ball of light in the center of my field of vision (which still seemed to be mostly blocked). It wasn't very big at all, but it had an appearance which looked to me as though it was at the end of a long tunnel stretching out straight in front of me (so, as if it was far away rather than actually small). It had streaks of light sprawling out from the center, much like what you see when you squint at a bright streetlamp or other such light source.

Now it sounds like "you" are being your HM. Its size would have seemed small only because maybe you weren't as fully open to it at that point as you can be.

I then heard a voice addressing me. It was a woman, speaking softly in a rather soothing tone, but hers was not a voice which I recognized as anyone I've ever known. However, as soon as she began to speak, I heard a number of other voices simultaneously carrying on around me. It was very much like a crowded restaurant, in which a small-moderately sized crowd is yammering on all at once, carrying on multiple conversations simultaneously. This effect, as you know, results in a sort of white noise such that even though you can hear individual voices, you can't really make out any specific words or sentences unless you really focus in on one voice.

Most skills take time to develop. I don't personally remember having any trouble hearing all the conversations at once, and following them all. I may have forgotten when I couldn't. But it's an honor and a privilege that they're bothering to address you directly.

Well, I did my best to hear her over this inexplicable racket, but I was only able to make out two things she said:

"You could die in the next three months..." (I am unsure if this was a warning, concerning the possibility of death, or rather simply an explanation of some sort. As in, 'if you happen to die in this specific span of time, then...' At any rate, she seemed fairly unemotional about it, but in a kind of pleasant way. I personally felt no particular emotion whilst hearing it, other than the mild frustration and confusion stemming from not being able to hear clearly).

"...if the link is broken..." (Since I lack the greater context of what she was telling me, I cannot even guess... but this followed shortly after the first quote above).

The "link" sounds like it's the silver cord. So this could indeed mean possible physical death. I've received health warnings and other warnings or information like that, in clear words, a few times. If I were you I would get a blood analysis and go to a good naturopath (or two) and probably even a GP, to get my health checked. My intuition suggests you need this anyway, even if the "possible death" spoken of was metaphorical, i.e. it meant some level of psychological death.

Freed Fox

14th November 2013, 16:55

dpwishy

14th November 2013, 17:45

As far as I understand, any drugs have the effect of being disconnected from the rest of you. And although they take you OB, naturally they create fear in you at least subconsciously, because they're acting like some foreign force that's not organically integrated with your conscious awareness. As a result that fear becomes part of your shadow and may sit in your subconscious unresolved. Because the drug(s) have kind of occupied parts of the gate to OB for you, once you do go consciously OB, as you did, that fear comes flooding into your awareness and because it's subconscious and connected to the entrance to OB for you, you can't stop it from overwhelming you initially. Or something like that.

You did exactly the right thing to burn away a lot of that fear as quickly as possible, Michael, so I'm impressed. I guess (initial) total acceptance is the key to everything, you could say. At least, as long as it's understood that total acceptance doesn't involve being a victim in any way.

Hey trainee, that reply has had my brain spinning and thinking all week. You opened up some new ways too see things which is always appreciated. My question after thinking this over for a week is this; if I didn't take psychedelics before this there is no doubt in my mind I would have been completely lost and taken over by my experience. I was coming in and out of ego death 5-8 times, completely dissolving and reassembling. I can't express in words how far I was. I have taken literally hundreds of shamanic sessions, at dose levels most would never think about and I can honestly say how far I was last week has only been something as a shaman using visionary plants that I have only experienced maybe five times out of my hundreds of sessions. I can't fathom being that far without previous experience, it would cripple you mentally. Do my obe's have this flavor and "spin" from all my shamanic work, is it just because those "doors" have already been unlocked? Or is it like this for everyone? To be honest if I have never had an experience like that prior, that would have shaken me to my core and left me speachless for days. I don't know how people could truly integrate something like that if it was out of the blue and their first experience like that. Are yours or other people's like this or is this due to my past experiences and what got me here?

Thanks for your service and time. You are truly appreciated

In divine friendship,
Your brother,
-michael

TraineeHuman

14th November 2013, 22:40

My question after thinking this over for a week is this; if I didn't take psychedelics before this there is no doubt in my mind I would have been completely lost and taken over by my experience. I was coming in and out of ego death 5-8 times, completely dissolving and reassembling. I can't express in words how far I was. I have taken literally hundreds of shamanic sessions, at dose levels most would never think about and I can honestly say how far I was last week has only been something as a shaman using visionary plants that I have only experienced maybe five times out of my hundreds of sessions. I can't fathom being that far without previous experience, it would cripple you mentally. Do my obe's have this flavor and "spin" from all my shamanic work, is it just because those "doors" have already been unlocked? Or is it like this for everyone? To be honest if I have never had an experience like that prior, that would have shaken me to my core and left me speechless for days. I don't know how people could truly integrate something like that if it was out of the blue and their first experience like that. Are yours or other people's like this or is this due to my past experiences and what got me here?

You had another enlightenment experience, Michael. Wonderful! That's the most powerful kind of inner healing there is, as far as I know. It's great that you're open to being so honest with yourself, but I would have thought this recent experience has healed you of much fear, maybe even all fear. As far as I understand, the shamanic approach is to give an individual extra problems, particularly through drugs or physical austerities, so that, as you say, the individual is forced to bring out all the inner strength they might never know or suspect they had, just to overcome those problems. But it sounds to me like you've sure done that. And yes, clearly that enabled you to go further than others usually do.

I've found that in psychotherapy it's quite easy to fully heal the hallucinatory effects of psychedelics quickly. It can be awfully hard to heal the effects of prolonged marijuana usage, though. But again, some individuals unearth the inner strength to heal themselves entirely of that too.

Another reason why I suspect your recent union with Source would heal any hallucinatory baggage is that in a sense, for Source fantasy is almost on an equal footing to reality. This is because, unlike us, Source knows everything that exists but also everything that doesn't exist. It's a little hard to explain, but Source can tell the difference between fantasy and reality and still in its Mind it can hold the fantastic, or the possible, kind of on an equal footing with reality.

Other people can be led (by themselves, and no doubt with the help of their guides) to ego death by other, probably less risky means than psychedelics, of course. As you've said quite beautifully, the depth of the enlightenment experience is only as great as the depth of the death of the former self.

powessy

15th November 2013, 02:59

Hello again to everyone here let me try and explain me for a moment. when I was around fifteen I was taking a nap in the afternoon this is when I met my first soul guide his name was Luna. shortly after that a image grew in that place in my head of a man with blue and yellow veins running through his body standing on a bridge facing a light at the end there are good souls on his right and evil souls on his left. before anyone assumes anything I haven't drank in around 18 years and I have never done drugs just to get this out of the way. I served 3 years in the military and 5 years of college with a concentration in electronics and computer science, this is not a brag fest just trying to lay down some credibility. I am a loner and seldom express emotion of any kind and if I do it is for the recipient. don't get me wrong there are times of joy and sorrow just very far and in between. Soon I started to experience obes and other things such to the point that I thought I could control different things and outcomes but I really didn't persue it to much I was enjoying teenage things if you know what I mean. Things all my life have been good not great but happy my obes continued to grow and my exploration of the other places was satisfying. When I joined the military I started to steel energy from thought as from the belief of god, the devil, Ala, Buddha not directly from them because I didn't even believe they existed Just the thoughts man empowered them with this took me to new places and brought things out of the closets that I cant even hardly describe. my obes continued they would sometimes occur two times a day. I have always had this ability to move about in the dream world till about 6 years ago. Not going to go into to much detail but something happened to my guardian there's this other place above obe one that is so close to this reality you couldn't even tell the difference this is a place that I first seen each of my children. Back to 6 years ago my new guardian showed himself to me it was dark and I had mistaken him for something else since Luna was so many years ago and the experience was a bit different since there were others in the room also, I thought I was going to have another child but I had a vasectomy a couple years earlier, soon after I noticed vibrations and activity around my friend on the bridge. I took on the defensive and created barriers he pulled my soul free and placed it in the barrier to help protect me from the battle this went on for over a year till finally I defeated her reciently I found out her name it was Gabre, that is another long story. My soul finally went back to sleep and the bridge is now back to what I remembered, Over the last six years I have had very few dream or obes I tried everything food meditation everything but every time I tried just as it would start A barrier or vale was blocking me from travel I tore holes in it but could never seem to break it finally I went to try something different, I thought I had a spell on me so I search the internet and someone mentioned to me the muscle test this was pretty interesting and the things that I was receiving was imposable to be by chance I am a probability person and rarely take chances that could cause me to fail, so I don't gamble except for the powerball from time to time. I base things on reason and how all the pieces fit together not on first impressions. I then learned the pendulum technique and then formed a 400 word word sheet to help communicate to my guide he then started to explane things to me about what is currently happening. Trainee human the energy that is being felt right now is not just gaias their are 8 others helping her this is why you can't keep up with this influx of energy. I woke up around October when my sole became one and now the story is being unfolded.

dpwishy

15th November 2013, 11:01

Other people can be led (by themselves, and no doubt with the help of their guides) to ego death by other, probably less risky means than psychedelics, of course. As you've said quite beautifully, the depth of the enlightenment experience is only as great as the depth of the death of the former self.

I know this is out of context but I felt the need to add to this as a disclaimer. I know that some of my posts here have glamorized psychedelics but I felt the need to be honest and clear about this. I am not promoting or encouraging anyone to partake. I have seen many friends who have not fared well with their use, others who were changed in a bad way forever.

Source has shown me why I am here. I am a traveler or sorts, a star seed at the very beginning of human development. I have come in and out of this planet and know the back doors to incarnating here. There is quite literally a group of people that make sure certain vibrational beings can not incarnate here. This is why the back door method must be used. I choose to come back in this time/life for a very specific purpose. The best way I can describe it is like a see-saw. The blocking of the souls with high vibration mixed with the control grid that is set up here made it so the see-saw was bent one way to allow only one side to win here. There are a bunch of us here now that have beaten "here" and left, not to be stuck in the incarnation cycle. We came back to tip the see-saw to a more even level. Its an evening out of vibrations if you will to allow what is planned to happen here happen. There is much risk is doing this as we forget who we are and what we have learned on re-entering. Source has shown me that psychedelics were my way of remembering. I was literally getting hundreds of lives worth of information and learning given to me over a decade. The leaps and bounds in information and remembering, even during a single session, is quite remarkable. I was shown that to fully re-remember everything I needed too and to also remember why I am here, I needed psychedelics. Its almost like cheating in a sense, or the warp speed for remembering information. BUT.... If you are not meant to be a part of it, it can truly destroy you or set you back on your path big time. I have seen it with many people.

I just want to add that I think they are dangerous and should be avoided unless its your calling. I am no way supporting their use or condoning it in anyway. It was part of my path and I understand many people can never understand this or see it eye to eye. But please don't take my posts as glamorizing their use at all. I had a contract with these spirits before I even came here for my remembering. I don't want to see or hear of anyone else getting lost or set back as I have seen in real life. With any high risk, there is high reward but I just want to be clear this is extremely high risk and I think should be avoided by many people. I don't want my posts to come off as supporting or advocating the use in anyway.

:focus:

In divine friendship,
your brother,
-michael

TraineeHuman

15th November 2013, 13:13

On the other hand, I do know that Gaia has upped her energies enormously during the last year or so to make the planet a considerably more positive place as far as earth energies are concerned. I guess if people aren't ready to accept the full implications of that, there could be a temporary veil in the astral worlds to give people time to make themselves ready to handle those implications at some future time -- which could then be in April as powessy says. Gaia has changed here energies so much, and for the better, it's hard to keep up with.

Do you know what the full implications are? Would you care to describe them?

Unfortunately, all I can tell you right now is that the "level" of the energies in the air, so to speak, is considerably higher thanks to Gaia, and permanently so, throughout the planet. And that this is certainly great news, because the general public will slowly become more and more aware regardless of what the ruling elite or any ET powers may do.

On the other hand, it's certainly not true that we are all somehow now in heaven -- which seems to be almost roughly what some of the proponents of "Ascension" are claiming.

Also, provided my assumption was correct regarding the symbols at the end being the zodiac, do you have any thoughts about what that could mean?

Before I attempt to give a response to your request, FF, could you please indulge my account of what your OBE was about, according to my intuition? When I first began to astral travel regularly, the most gratifying thing about it for me was that in the astral I would most often meet others who were extremely similar to myself, in some ways at least. It's not like in the physical world, where you can't ultimately avoid dealing with many people you don't really "gell" with. In this way astral traveling became for me a way of visiting a truer "home" and "circles of friends" than what I had in the physical. I remember you've posted about your thirst for your true home. Well, let me suggest that in this OBE you did go to somewhere that was more truly your natural home than anything in the physical.

What I soon found was that I could join a certain group of the likeminded almost effortlessly at night, and eventually a few such groups. It's great to be with others who truly appreciate you and yet also accept you as you are, and whom you equally appreciate and admire and enjoy. So I hope you find a way to keep visiting that group of beings who were in your OBE.

My intuition suggests that they took you beyond the solar system. Actually, it only seems possible to see the physical world clearly and fully if you're in the two lowest OB levels (of 4D). But sometimes the mind creates physical pictures and scenery that represent what you're experiencing even though where you are things actually don't look like that at all. Anyway, I suspect it was "beyond" the solar system in the sense of quite a high dimensional level. I suspect they were making the point that they are powerful and wise and you are really their "equal", and equally capable -- or at least you will be in the afterlife, if not before.

I take it you saw the constellations of Capricorn and Pisces in the sky near the solar system when you were coming back from the journey into a "bigger picture" it seems they took you on. You ask about the meaning of a goat symbol and a fish symbol. Well, firstly I'd like to say my intuition suggests there's no symbolic meaning there. Rather, that you saw those constellations in reality, and that's all that's important. Secondly, most symbols have a personal meaning and comment on your current situation, so you're the one who's the expert there. Thirdly, I happen to have my sun in Pisces and a Capricorn ascendant. Pisces and Capricorn are two of the most different signs in the whole zodiac. Capricorn is the most practical sign, and Pisces the most impractical -- though fortunately, the astrology books say that by having that ascendant I'm saved from the impracticality that most Pisceans enter the world with. What do those two signs have in common? Not much. They're both introvert signs, and they both like to see things as embedded in the universe or the world rather than egocentrically. That's about all the similarity I can think of, I'm afraid.

Incidentally, to a certain degree I experience the "likeminded company" effect in the OB worlds with other individuals who post in the thread or perhaps only read it. The amount of synchronicity I come across is huge, though I don't normally mention it. Like today, I received a PM from Michael (dpwishy) and before I had a chance to send a PM in reply, he made a post which essentially said most of the things I was intending to say in my PM in reply.

learninglight

15th November 2013, 17:32

Thank you Sway, i am reading the thread

The image i got was just so real, like he was with me, i could feel his presence

sharon

yep,i believe around the beginning of this thread (th always knows) theres some posts about images like that.

that being said, ive had a few (which ive shared here) and they are intricate, arent they? :D

learninglight

15th November 2013, 18:49

Thank you for your reply TraineeHuman

Spirit guide WOW! :)

I'm quite blown away as i just wasn't expecting any of this, i thought concentrating on my breathing and clearing myself of negativity would help me relax and have a better sleep. I have read about OBE and visited some forums in the past but i wasn't ready to find out if i could experience it for myself.
I'm not one to usually remember my dreams so when i do it feels more like an experience than a dream. This past year a few dreams that have stayed with me are when i had contact with a dolphin, in another i was semi-nacked highly sexually excited and tied to a post over hanging a cliff with the sea hitting rocks below, (this was not a pleasant dream), in another i was running towards myself; i mention these because they were so profoundly real. Another time (actually this has happened more than once) i woke feeling stiff as a board, couldn't move, but i was awake! I'm now aware this could be because i've 'popped' back in. Wow! How about that :) (if that's what happened)

If he comes again i will hopefully be more relaxed and be able to communicate

sharon

Hope it's ok to jump in here :)

I haven't experienced an OBE but have a question if anyone can help plz

I have had the sensations that are described for OBE ( i think ). My body vibrations are more like tingling sensations; and i have had the feeling of i'm about to 'pop' out so to speak, this is not me trying to have OBE just concentrating on my breathing as i go to sleep, but i stop myself as i don't feel ready yet to 'let go'. Want to keep this short so will cut to the chase

Last night i did the usual routine, concentrate on my breathing to go to sleep, the vibrations or tingling sound in my ears was amazing and i could feel/sense a whitish light, then i became aware of the feelings and pulled myself out of it.
I settled myself again and this time the whitish light appeared and then an image of a monk, or budda looking man, just him from the shoulder line up, he was young about 20ish, he looked so calm. Well with this i woke up, (although i didn't feel i was asleep but this image had come to me) I lay saying to myself 'wow! wtf! that was sooo cool!!

As i said i'm not having an OBE, it's like i'm somewhere else in my mind, i find it hard to put into words what happened, maybe i'm just nuts haha

Has anyone else experienced this 'vision' and is it to do with the OBE in anyway?

The man you are seeing is a guide (or possibly a guardian angel). I first learnt how to astral travel through a guide who was a wise elderly man I knew who had recently died. He had intended to give me personal tuition in spirituality and in psychic development, but he got ill and died before we really started. Your guide, Sharon, is there to teach you how to astral travel and advise you and protect you. That is the very easy way to learn to do it. Why not try going along with what he wants to teach you? The white light tells me he's a good guy and has considerable consciousness and power. Many people have trouble seeing anything or anyone when they initially learn to astral travel, but you wouldn't have that problem.

By the way, it certainly sounds like you did astral travel but you didn't think you were. What else could it possibly mean to say: "...I woke up, although I didn't feel I was asleep"?

Freed Fox

15th November 2013, 18:58

Before I attempt to give a response to your request, FF, could you please indulge my account of what your OBE was about, according to my intuition?

I'm not sure if you mean to verbally indulge here, or simply silently to myself. At any rate, I always try to engage in objective consideration with your feedback (which I do greatly appreciate, btw), but in case it is the former;

I guess if people aren't ready to accept the full implications of that, there could be a temporary veil in the astral worlds to give people time to make themselves ready to handle those implications at some future time -- which could then be in April as powessy says.

Although I'm not discounting this as a possibility, I had no feeling akin to any sort of avoidance or rejection. The only point at which I felt anything but open to the experience (as opposed to closed off, etc) was when I considered the possibility that 'the killer' was waiting outside my door. Even then, though, I didn't shy away from ultimately going through to face what was on the other side.

I remember you've posted about your thirst for your true home. Well, let me suggest that in this OBE you did go to somewhere that was more truly your natural home than anything in the physical.

That may indeed be true, but that's not the way it felt to me... Actually, up until the end (when I got that view of the stars/constellations), the only feelings I remember having outside of some initial excitement from going OoB, were mild frustration and confusion. These were primarly derived from my inability to either see or hear properly. I agree with the sentiment you stated before; I felt honored to be addressed by whatever or whomever it was attempting to speak to me. However, it still bothers me that I was only able to receive such a small fragment of whatever was being communicated. I feel like there was a larger message, and I've missed out on it.

I was not aware of any other individual presences around me (i.e. the other voices which constituted the 'white noise'). I wonder if a lot of that could be attributed to not yet having my 'astral legs', so to speak; abilities which have not yet developed much as I have only just started having conscious OBEs. I believe you alluded to this possibility as well, in your first response to this recent experience.

Anyway, thanks again for your time and patience.

Kari Lynn

15th November 2013, 22:05

I've read the last few pages here, wish I had time to read more, but am at the library.

I'm still trying to differenciate between OBE, Remote Viewing, Astral Travel and dreams. If there is any.

Most of what I do I've been told is Remote Viewing. I do this while wide awake. I will just tune into a thought sometimes, sometimes I have to mediate to get there. Sometimes, they just come to me.
When with the PRC (psychic research center) I did do a structured OBE, with an instructor that talked us through it. (group setting) I did leave my body, travel much further than just the room and explore. But when compared to RV, it does feel different. I felt free, but alone. I never saw anyone else that I could interact with. They never saw me.
Some dreams, (these I'm not even sure they are simply dreams) I meet a person and the feeling is more intense than humanly possible. (ei. wings dream I had of an angel)
The RV's though hard to attain, hard to concentrate, seem much more connected with other beings. Depending on whether they are human or other, the feelings I get can be out of this world.
Just wondered what some of you thought of the differences, if there is a difference, etc..

Jake

15th November 2013, 22:57

Hi, Kari. Remote viewing and OBE and Astral travel and Dreaming (and waking consciousness, for that matter) are all related in that they are different platforms that consciousness uses to create and manifest. None being more relevant than any of the others,,, imho... There are different terms we are beginning to use to try and differentiate between the different states. It gets confusing because we are trying to make sense of it all from our waking conscious state, which is limited. We have our waking minds, our dreaming minds, and our 'sleeping' minds. At a deeper level,,, there is no distinguishing one from the other.. But at this level, consciousness seems to be, well,,, layered. And peeling back the layers of consciousness (thank you Ray,, for helping me with my words) will expose different states of being.. Your dreaming mind, thinks that it is YOU. It thinks that it exists in, and of, itself. (same as our waking minds) We think that our earth-life experience is our true selves. It is not,,, only another level of the 'dream'. Physicality is illusory,, Reality is subjective. With all of that said...

Remote viewing is more of a mental 'projection',, No astral body phenomenon. It is more of a psychic 'knowing' than a fully conscious 'exit projection'. There is a 'real time' element to remote viewing that is similar to a 'real time' astral projection. Being fully able to sense a passing of moments, can sometimes help differentiate between 'states'. Remote viewing is quite natural. It is 'real time' clairvoyancy.

OBE,, in the traditional sense is the phenomenon where you are out of your body, as if you were a ghost or a specter. You seem to be in the real world, experiencing 'real time', yet you are in a sort of phantom state, unseen by physical senses. ie,,, out-of-body-experience. I will often refer to it as a fully conscious exit projection. Specific mechanics apply while in the astral, out of body. You will seem to have a phantom body, or astral body. Generally, one only has about a minute to a minute and a half in this 'state', before the experience slips into a more 'astral proper' state of consciousness.

A lucid dream is simply a dream that you bring a fully waking consciousness into... Being awake in a dream. VERY POWERFUL. Especially considering that I have had moments of lucidity, and have become awake in THIS dream,,, waking physical reality...

It is hard to deem yourself part of 'this world', once you wrap your brain around it all.... I am not a human. My BODY is!! (strange template btw lol) I am invisible. At least to the human senses....

I know that it seems like this waking physical reality is the only ONE... but it is not. It is soooooooooooo temporary.... We are dealing with colliding natures of consciousness. And we are doing just fine... :):):)

Love to you, Kari Lynn.
Jake.

TraineeHuman

16th November 2013, 07:58

I'm still trying to differenciate between OBE, Remote Viewing, Astral Travel and dreams. If there is any.

In this thread I've mostly been using the term "OB" or "out of body" to refer to anything that's directly known or perceived by means other than the physical senses, or by the physical senses accompanied by the thinking mind or the emotions.

That can seem confusing because, as Jake pointed out, we have a physical body but we aren't identical with our physical body, because we're much more than that.

Remote viewers do their work by accessing their intuition in a certain way. The intuition (as distinct from animal instinct) is most definitely something that's OB. But I understand the professional remote viewers don't need to disconnect from their physical sensations in order to "hear" their intuition clearly.

TraineeHuman

16th November 2013, 11:53

The beings we encounter in any OB world will not necessarily be human. They will often appear simply as beings. We also are just simply "beings". It just so happens that we are tied (if not chained) to a physical body, which is merely an electro-bio-chemical robot.

The beings we call "ETs" we consider to be quite different from us. In my experience, such beings seem to have all been in, or communicated through, an astral form on those occasions when I have encountered them. Such experience of such beings, then, is an interesting subset of OB experience.

I don't claim to have had anything extensive like the experience of a Stan Zemanek or the like. Still, I'd like to offer some of my own comments, from the point of view of ETs as an OB phenomenon, on excerpts from the piece by "Seeker" from ATS quoted by Hughe in post #3 of the "Prisoners of Titan" thread here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?65355-Prisoners-of-Titan&p=756956&viewfull=#1post756956 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?65355-Prisoners-of-Titan&p=759568&viewfull=#1post7569568)

One reason I'm quoting excerpts from this is that I consider Seeker's piece one of the most accurate accounts (maybe 90% accurate) of ETs I have read, based on my own experiences.

There is more than one way to fly alien ships, depends on the ship and the person, what you describe may be a real experience and not a dream. But the true experience would be different from the dream -- the dream or if it really happened to you -- the memory, are sometimes altered to fit the concepts we are familiar with on earth.

I find this interesting for several reasons. Firstly the issue of how reliable or necessary is memory in this. Secondly, alien ships are normally flown by pure intention plus being at one with the ship -- quite a different notion of technology from what we're used to.

Much of what goes on in the ship stays in the ship. Sometimes I have a clear understanding of everything I did but when I try to put it on paper -- I can't make it happen, nor can I verbalize it.

Sounds like something formless -- but totally real in spite of that.

The majority of people that come into conflict with aliens -- are terrified beyond belief for having done so, and have no desire to ever experience aliens again. ...Not for the faint of heart.

Yes, it's mighty unsettling -- initially verging on nauseating -- to look into the eyes of a being who knows everything about you at a glance, including your past lifetimes and everything you're thinking and your darkest secrets and more. And yet, Seeker elsewhere mentions at more than one point that s/he finds that each experience of contact with an alien left him/her feeling blissful for several days after. Me too. But it seems you have to overcome your fears to get to that point, where that very same experience of contact becomes highly positive. Otherwise, interestingly, it becomes very negative for you -- but solely because you're being a victim of your own fear.

We live in two realities -- and information does not transfer from one of those realities to the other very well. There are huge gaps -- how do we/I fill them in?

I would say meditation and other kind of OB experience help us greatly to see things from that other point of view.

ETs are not attracted to our personal intelligence, spirituality , intelligence or good looks -- ET works with everyone on some level. Most people don't need to understand what make the engine in a car operate -- to operate a car. ET works in a similar way -- ET is the engine that makes things go -- hidden underneath the hood.

I would say most of us won't understand how ETs work because they work so much from their HMs.

You never stop being you when you die --you will be aware of more than you are aware of now. All your memories will be intact and crystal clear [until your next physical incarnation, if any] -- unlike [how] they are here on earth.

TraineeHuman

17th November 2013, 03:19

I'd like to say more about learning to control and be aware of energy -- what some call bio-energy or orgone energy or chi or prajna. This topic is really just a sub-topic of what I mean by "energy work". I guess "energy work" comprises two areas. One is exercises like this, and the other is any kind of non-verbal work involved in any kind of psychotherapy or self-facing.

I've already talked about psychic healing in various posts. This is one form of giving out positive energy (though I would say that really effective healing also involves formless "Energy"). How to give out positive energy? Simple. First get grounded and calm. For ways of getting grounded please see posts from the first three months of this thread, such as:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=612059&viewfull=1#post612059

Second, briefly invoke or create some psychic protection. Third, get relaxed and then firmly focus on where you want the energy to go. It seems to help most people to lift their hands up, palms facing forward, because there are two gigantic chakras, one in the middle of each palm, that naturally outflow bio-energy. (Yes, it know it can sound confusing, but while you are grounded your astral body is (hopefully) fully inside your physical body. Normally we see and feel only the surface of everything that is going on.)

That's about all there is to it. You can keep practising this everywhere, and eventually some people will notice that you heal the psychic and emotional environment everywhere you go. It's also in your best interests, to remove many of the small negative energies that might otherwise bother you somewhere in your daily life.

Second exercise. This exercise is learning to take positive energies into yourself. If you can do the feeling the aliveness exercise, you'll automatically be doing this in a big way. Otherwise, the exercise I've recently described of being at one with trees or other parts of Nature is a great way to learn this skill. I know it's an exercise, but getting yourself charged up with extra positive energy is really to do yourself a favor, surely? But get grounded and protect yourself each time before you start. And this will also help you to discover through direct experience how huge those energies available to you are, but you can ride them without any problem.

It's all pretty easy and natural. You need to practice these exercises like a person obsessed, for a month or two or three until they become natural and fluent. Although I was taught how to astral travel easily by a guide, like hopefully Sharon (learninglight) will allow herself to be, before I did I had already worked very hard and with huge intensity at exercises like these and at nonverbal therapy. Maybe I got the personal tuition from the guide at every step, not only to get out of my physical body successfully every time but to attend lessons in the astral on other planets every night, because I'd done all that work to make myself ready. Like it or not, any worthwhile skill takes hard work.

soleil

17th November 2013, 18:51

the other night i requested to meet my guide or learn my guides name. that night i dreamt of meeting someone new..which always happens of course, but names are never exchanged, as in dreams the feelings indicate a knowing and not knwoing of familiarity. so as i was walking down some stairs, a lady that was friendly earlier in the dream says "im not waiting for anyone else, do you still want to get coffee?" (as she was on her phone talking to someone else). i said sure, and introduced myself, herself. as afukka, it sounded like ah-fuh-ka. and i cant recall now what happened after, i think we were building rapport. *shrugs*

TraineeHuman

18th November 2013, 12:23

the trick to successful obe is to lower your heart beat as low as possible then start at you feet and try making yourself as light as a feather work up words taking deep breaths continuing to slow things down eventually you should only be able to feel your heart beating you should almost feel paralyzed this is ok try and keep your eyes open as long as possible until all the noises fade I try to imagine being a bird or a cat so that when I leave my body I can move about.

This sounds lmostly different from the way many people quickly bring on the vibrations. I believe the method they use is to consciously energy up and down their body, from their feet to their head and back from the head to the feet, over and over. The idea is to do this slowly at first, but once you get a "handle"on it, to move the nergy up and down very quickly. And to keep doing that until the vibrations come.

One variation of this is to imagine and feel that you're sending a beautiful shower of pure white or silver and gold healing energy up and down the full length of your body quickly, and that it's cleaning out any pockets of emotional garbage from the day or even any bigger and more permanent energy blockages.

I believe this exercise takes you more than halfway to being disconnected from your physical body. The vibrations can indeed feel like a strong tingling, or like more dramatically vibrating energy.

The other way to disconnect from the physical body is through some form of meditation. When I meditate I start off first making sure there's a grounding energy flowing down my feet and between my tailbone and the ground. In addition, I've noticed that when a person is meditating properly there's a flow of energy from the oversoul area to the top of the head, then down the center front of the body to the lower belly, then up the spine and on to the oversoul area again. And this energy flow gets faster and faster, and when it does it disconnects the meditator from their physical body. Most meditators don't notice that energy flow, but it certainly occurs. Obviously it's subtler energy than in the first method, and one usually doesn't notice vibrations at all. If I've been meditating for more than an hour, I'm certainly somewhat disconnected from my physical body at the end of that period. I can't walk straight immediately after, and need to take several minutes to reconnect fully to the physical body.

Kalamos

18th November 2013, 15:54

..........

TraineeHuman

19th November 2013, 02:02

Source has shown me why I am here. I am a traveler or sorts, a star seed at the very beginning of human development. I have come in and out of this planet and know the back doors to incarnating here. There is quite literally a group of people that make sure certain vibrational beings can not incarnate here. This is why the back door method must be used. I choose to come back in this time/life for a very specific purpose. The best way I can describe it is like a see-saw. The blocking of the souls with high vibration mixed with the control grid that is set up here made it so the see-saw was bent one way to allow only one side to win here. There are a bunch of us here now that have beaten "here" and left, not to be stuck in the incarnation cycle. We came back to tip the see-saw to a more even level. Its an evening out of vibrations if you will to allow what is planned to happen here happen. There is much risk is doing this as we forget who we are and what we have learned on re-entering.

Fascinating. Thank you. If you'd care to describe any of that in greater detail, I'm sure we would all find it very interesting. For instance, who are that "group of people" who attempt to block the entry of higher vibrational souls, and how do they block "the front door"?

I can remember quite a lot of the details of my conception and of my choice to come here prior to that. I don't remember something I would call a "back door". I certainly remember, though, that I volunteered. And certainly I seemed to agree to be a volunteer and then it seemed a long time before I was asked to select (and get agreement from) the people who would be my parents. In fact, it seemed such a long wait it was almost like I'd forgotten all about having put my name on the volunteers list. Maybe that delay and (to me then) apparent randomness of timing could be part of a "back door"?

TraineeHuman

19th November 2013, 12:18

I guess the ultimate reason a person would be interested in learning to astral travel or otherwise experience OB things would be a desire to get closer to finding out the ultimate truth.

From my point of view, the ultimate purpose of astral travel etc is for people to free themselves of the limitations of all that is physical, emotional or mental (in the lower, i.e. ordinary sense) -- at least, to free themselves of these whenever they might wish to do so. Through that freeing process we are entering the realm of the Higher Mind. The Higher Mind sees the many as many, but also sees a unity of all things. I like to "travel" in the Higher Mind realms when I'm able to, though there is no longer any kind of "body" at those levels to do the "traveling".

Beyond that, there is the Divine Mind. Relative to our present limited perception, we can say the Divine Mind sees everything as the same. That may sound boring, but I assure you it's anything but. Can you for a moment drop the whole distinction between "one" and "many"? Can you go beyond that -- preferably in an experiential way rather than just conceptually? Nearly all the rules that applied even in the formless Higher Mind realms get broken here. That one whole that the Divine Mind sees is indeed the Truth. Everything falls into place within that. Nothing gets destroyed. Everything remains in place. All that seems to us to be separate continues to seem separate. But it's as if everything has a hidden essence of sameness. You only need to somehow turn each thing inside out, so to speak, to see that its true essence is sameness.

The Divine Mind is the whole and only gateway into Source, for those who are ready. It's how Source communicates, and acts. From the Divine Mind's point of view,there are no problems, ever. Ultimately, all major transformation for the better originates from the Divine Mind. It gets passed down the "food chain" of levels of existence until it reaches our own consciousness and endows our aspirations for the higher with feasibility, with the Divine Mind's cooperation.

Actually, the Divine Mind is at a level just below pure Source. But pure Source is too laid back, too detached and at peace, to act directly. But the Divine Mind is very dynamic, very enterprising. The Prime Mover is not Source, but the Divine Mind. This is kind of a little like the Christian notion that Christ is how God the Father expresses himself. Christ does all of the leg work, so to speak, of penetrating his influence down into all levels of existence, and creating positive change there.

The reason why the Higher Mind is needed as well as the Divine Mind is something along the following lines. The Divine Mind is so full of wisdom and Light that it could never create such a limited world as the physical universe and be satisfied with it. It could not allow itself to rest after creating so much limitation, so much imbalance and darkness. It would regard the job as badly incomplete, and in need of radical improvements.

And so the HM acts like a kind of reducing valve for the Divine Mind. It takes the Divine Mind's dynamism and tones it down into something that's maybe only a spark from the original but that spark is something we can understand and work with.

Jake

19th November 2013, 15:14

My experience this morning:

So last night I went to bed with the intent to follow the directions and achieve Phase -- this is the word Michael Raduga (author of The Phase (http://obe4u.com/)) uses to cover all states from OBE to Lucid dreaming.

I feel I succeeded, or I had a dream about succeeding, lol.

No, it was something.

I remember waking from sleep, and immediately going into the indirect techniques (from The Phase book (http://obe4u.com/)) to separate from my body. I was cycling between 3 exit techniques when one started to work. I felt like I 'physically' was getting out of bed, but I knew my body was not awake.

I stood up in my room, and glanced back at my bed. I initially thought I had seen my body, so I was like, "cool! obe!"

I then went over to my dresser to look into the mirror, as was my intention, or goal for this session as suggested by Raduga in the book. I started to scrutinize the little objects on the dresser. (also a suggestion to establish a clarity).

Oh, in the mirror, I don't remember seeing an 'astral body' or anything reflected back, but I could see my bed in the reflection, and I again the thought was that my physical body lay there.

On the dresser I saw my bar of deodorant, and I had the silly(!) thought to move it a little, to see if upon waking that had some affect in the physical (lmao).

I turned back to my bed now to scrutinize my 'physical body' that I thought was laying there asleep. It turns out my bed was empty. The sheets in The Phase state were just such that it looked like a person was laying there. I was not OBE, it turns out.

[I'm going to call this an Astral Projection]

At that point I got discouraged of the situation, cause I really thought I was OBE (something I look as more advanced then astral or dreams). My thinking and 'processing' in the dream moved fast and not very deep, you see. I wish I had thought, "okay, maybe no OBE, but Lucid none the less."

After what seemed like 1 to 2 minutes in this state, and right after realizing in the Phase that I was not OBE (at least not how I imagine it to be), I remember being at my door, as if ready to exit it. My memory ends there.

final notes: While my room's layout was the same in the Phase, my deodorant isn't kept on my dresser however (it is in the room though). And my sheets were different colors, not the plain blue that I have. The many little objects on my dresser in the Phase, are not there in reality.

HenryBowen,,,, you said
My memory ends there.

Bravo. Excellent call. Your experience did not end there, your memory of it did..

final notes: While my room's layout was the same in the Phase, my deodorant isn't kept on my dresser however (it is in the room though). And my sheets were different colors, not the plain blue that I have. The many little objects on my dresser in the Phase, are not there in reality.

This phenomenon is called a 'reality fluctuation' by Robert Bruce's terminology. I remember talking with William Buhlman on the Art bell show (many years ago) about this phenomenon, and the implications. My best take on it is that you are no longer in the physical, and the items on your dresser, just like everything else in the astral,, are a construct and a creation, and that YOU may not be the only element alive in the astral. In fact, everything is alive. everything has memory. You may also not be in the proper 'time' phase.

I would say that you were out of body, HenryBowen. I am excited for you. Most projections where you are in the real worlds (albeit phased) will only last about a minute or a minute and a half, before they slip into a more 'astral' (less dense/more intense) experience. and yes, the experience changes, and we have difficulty remembering because we have moved into realms that our physical minds do NOT have a reference, and therefore cannot process the experience. Which means that you will not remember it. NOt yet...

A journey into less dense,,, (astral proper) environments will (more often than not) be remembered in the same way that we remember dreams. ie,,, deeply vague archetypal visuals and understanding. Many flying dreams are OBE's that we remember via the dreaming states. But an ASTRAL PROPER PROJECTION may seem like a dream, altogether,,, if we are to trust our physical memory of it. Each aspect of processing reality is as relevant as the other. Dreams/Waking/Obe/Astral,,,, Different ways in which our overall viewpoint can manifest and create and experience.

Awesome.... Calamus,, you are an amazing soul...
Jake.

Karezza

19th November 2013, 19:32

jTdZLwVaBrI

They are seemingly no shortage of OBE techniques. This video has some chanting/ mantra techniques on astral projection. With a few explanation on what may inhibit an OBE.

-n6aEamiang

Kalamos

19th November 2013, 19:56

..........

TraineeHuman

20th November 2013, 12:40

Great video, Astrolabe. Near the beginning the presenter explains, probably more clearly than I have anywhere in this thread, why daily meditation is quite essential for learning to astral project/travel. And why if you're someone who never seems to have been able to have a single astral projection/travel experience or anything close, there's most definitely hope for you -- within, say, six months if you're willing to meditate, say, an hour per day. Developing your ability to meditate will move you closer and closer to the day when you can get lift-off.

The presentation makes the very important point that astral projection/travel is initially learnt (as, by the way, is meditation, traditionally) through developing the heart chakra and one's emotional maturity, and by getting out of your head (e.g. through grounding) each time before you start doing anything else too. As the presenter points out, our contemporary Western culture values the intellect and massively devalues the heart. I would add, though, that ultimately we need to get to the point of developing our intuition and our HM's presence. If we just developed the heart center, we wouldn't get the Higher heart operating. So we'd still have wars and I needn't tell any of you what other such things. Only with the HM in operation can Divine Love be present.

After one learns to project/travel with the emotional body, one can graduate to doing something similar with the mental (intellectual) body. And beyond that, of course, we have the realm of the HM.

The presenter suggests the way to exit the physical body is by focusing your awareness on your heartbeat. That seems to be the same as powessy's method, or roughly so. Over the years I have sometimes found myself focusing on my heartbeat before going to sleep and finding the only way to get it to be less loud and therefore less annoying was to be "one" with it. Sometimes I astral projected but usually I didn't, and until now hadn't thought of it as a method of astral projection.

As the presenter also strongly suggests, it seems to me the all-important ingredient for successful astral travel is being able to hold awareness (Consciousness) stably to some degree for a brief time. And the initial step to developing such awareness is to practice concentration. If you need to say to yourself: "Clarity now!", that can only be because your concentration skills are poor (so far). The solution is not to say "Clarity now!", but to develop your ability to concentrate more onepointedly. Next, not only your ability to concentrate strongly but your ability to be aware.

When one concentrates on a mantra, the quality of the concentration changes as the mantra is repeated over and over. Eventually one is no longer focusing on the sound or even the meaning of the mantra. Instead, one is simply watching whatever is happening, now, as the mantra continues to be repeated. That "simply watching" is what awareness is. In this way, mantra meditation progressively strengthens one's ability to hold awareness continuously, at least for a short period. Only then will you be able to fly, but you will be able to.

The presenter also recommends sometimes using visualization. But I would point out that if a person already can bring on (higher) Consciousness, i.e. the awareness of "just watching", that person then breathes life and power into the robotic shell that visualization is. Then visualization can be used to help point that individual in a certain direction. But without such awareness, visualization alone is just extra programming of your self, extra conditioning and ego.

TraineeHuman

21st November 2013, 00:27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS6pQ_jAkMg

I'd like to take the liberty of posting Part One of the wonderful video that Astrolabe kindly posted Part Two of above. Part Two is certainly much more important, because it gives you plenty of hands-on details of what you need to do -- and what anyone can do, including the rawest "beginner" -- to teach yourself to astral project/travel successfully and safely. I'm posting Part One as well partly because the speaker expresses himself so clearly and he's very easy to listen to. Also because he does a great job of presenting the subject simply, and giving examples of how different people will have certain different experiences and what those experiences mean. It's also great how he sometimes gives examples of what some different experiences are like, and particularly of how different such phenomena are normal, and just variations on the basic experience.

I understand the speaker in these videos is the current "leader" of Eckankar, which is really probably the contemporary school of Gnosticism that has the most members -- and also it's almost worldwide. You may have been exposed to the Gnostic cosmology through individuals such as John Lash -- who I would say is promoting his own unique interpretation of Gnosticism. Then again, Lash is reinterpreting it in ways that he feels are the most relevant to the times we are living in.

At the beginning the presenter asserts that the two things we need to learn that are absolutely essential for our proper (spiritual) evolution are concentration and astral projection. As I did mention twice already, only when we are in a higher world than the physical do we have access to all information -- ultimately to the Divine Mind. We won't be able to "read" it fully, so our information will be incomplete. But at least we will be able to access a certain amount of pure Truth regarding any question or topic -- which we can't generally do while we're in the physical. Of course, when I say "in the physical", really what's going on is that much of the time our perception will probably be quite superficial. Many dimensions are actually present right here, all kind of interwoven, but we don't normally manage to separate them out from one another, nor to have full awareness of how they may be influencing us.

Some of the terminology the presenter uses is different from what I have been using. Occasionally, but only occasionally, some of the things he says are oversimplifications. For instance, he does say several times that in the astral world there is no time. Strictly speaking, the timeless worlds begin at the lowest formless level (presumably what Bruce Moen calls the "No time" level and beyond). Even there there is the possibility of seeing sequential time but at the same time as one sees the current version of eternity (which itself keeps changing).

powessy

21st November 2013, 04:50

TraineeHuman

21st November 2013, 13:12

Trainee Human
This is what confuses me. I think his theory or explanation is backwards I'm not a expert in this field but I have had so many experiences that this just sounds wrong. Let me explain, though astral projection is pretty cool it is whimsical and fantasy it can be what ever I want or feel, this to me is the lowest dimension and lies just above dreaming. Astral projection has no consequences and lollies around the 3rd dimension because of it's abstractness the true sense of self is mistaken this is where the human soul lies, in these dimensions. The forth dimension is here where we reside currently. The fifth dimension is this reality but lacks the factor of time, this is the place where past meets future. There are variances in perception that can make the observer feel as though he or she has entered into a new place or dimension. Think of it like an ultrasound even though the machine is the same level it changes with the quality of the person that is observing it.
I am using dimension vary loosely here but I believe there are only 5 distinct dimensions with many other things wound in between them, this is my take on this subject.

Like I tell my kids the universe in all of its entirety with no outside interactions is predictable down to the most precise moment but this is without outside interaction, conscious souls or minds create chance and project unforeseen events that can effect every part of their reality and ours. If an observer in the fifth dimension were to look into the fifth dimension river of time to say find a prediction of an event, there would have to be some sort of (I call it a node) an event that all events lead up to, only at this moment will the observer find what they seek. Even the most advanced races can not predict future outcomes in a pool that has so many ripples its only when equilibrium occurs that one can truly see.

When I obe I can here my fan in my room come to a complete stop I can see and here dreams of the sleeping members of my house, I am fully aware of my surroundings this is not to be confused with astral projection. Obe is of the real, the clearer the more entered one is, Obe is also more solid but timeless, I like to astal project but to me it is less fulfilling, obe I have the true feeling of weightlessness and flight that keeps me yearning to go back.

I understand why you regard astral travel as a higher or fuller phenomenon than astral projection. I used to dearly love flying too, and I did it very often, for about a decade after I first learnt to astral travel. Back then, by the way, it was usual for me to go astral traveling every night.

After about four years I discovered that it's possible to fly -- and still "see" scenes in astral worlds -- while I was fully awake. After a time I discovered that everything I could "see" while astral traveling I could "see" (and feel) equally well while in that split state where I was certainly awake, and quite aware of my physical body -- though slightly disconnected from it too I guess. I could also feel the full thrill of flying while I was thus fully awake. Some people call this "bilocation".

Today I don't very often astral travel, but I usually bilocate instead. I know that various extremely experienced "experts" prefer to do likewise. Certainly Tom Campbell, and I understand also Bruce Moen, who are two of the most well-known Monroe graduates. In the Part One video above the speaker, who I understand (I hope correctly?) is the current Grand Master of Eckankar, and therefore extremely experienced in and very expert at astral travel, explains that their masters can bilocate in a matter of seconds and at such a time can experience and know everything that one can possibly experience while astral traveling. So I guess I would ask you why, if you haven't mastered bilocation yet, do you consider yourself in a position to judge?

As far as your statement that you know there are only five dimensions or levels goes, again, many very experienced individuals, including myself, have experienced way more dimensions than that. For instance, there are a number of dimensions of Source, and as far as I can gather from your comments so far, they are well above your "fifth dimension".

This is complicated somewhat by the fact that Source is actually present on -- or I should say penetrates into -- all levels, all dimensions, if we can only find it. The problem is, it's disguised by "veils", if you like. Only at the very, very high level of an individual being in or with the Divine Mind can it even begin to be seen in an undisguised form.

I've seen quite a few examples of where individuals believe they've experienced "the highest", when all they've experienced is the highest on some level of existence which regrettably is a long, long way from the level of Source. Let me give just one example.

Enlightenment, at the level it's usually experienced initially, is, in my understanding, merely the beginning of the descent of the HM into the physical body. (If you don't understand what I mean by that, I've been making posts about that constantly in this thread since March.) Now what I've noticed is that it's very easy to wrongly suppose that the HM (which begins in the largely timeless zones) is the Divine Mind, and many do, unfortunately, even though the HM is lower than the Divine Mind. The reason they do that is that only with the descent of the HM can one begin being realistically aware that the Divine Mind exists -- or that Source exists. Prior to reaching that point of initial enlightenment, anyone who claims to know through direct experience that "God" or "Source" exists is deceiving themselves. They only know that the HM exists, I'm afraid.

Then suddenly in the initial enlightenment experience they bring the HM (the Soul) into themselves permanently. They can also from that point on see the Light from Divine Mind. To see it is like Orphan Annie suddenly winning the lottery. This doesn't mean they now have stable access to the Divine Mind, That would be a considerably higher level of enlightenment. It merely means they've become able to have glimpses of it. But for the first time they can see how mind-blowing glorious the Divine Mind must be, and that there is something that amazing and Divine that really exists.

Everyone is always taking more steps on their journey (hopefully). It's always a matter of rising in the level of your awareness step by step. Much of the time you can only clearly see several steps ahead -- and it may be hard to imagine there exists anything more than what you see.Step by step. You can all do it. Some members seem to have been taking many or some steps from the ordinary human mind to something well beyond it -- namely, into living in intuition instead.

powessy

22nd November 2013, 03:29

Trainee human
firstly I am not judging I'm not familiar with your terminology but ok I can work with that. I can and do bi-locate Like I have said before I have traveled all over to so many places and have seen places one could only imagine but to me it is like a dream in the higher sense of things, I can feel and touch and I can do or be what ever I want, but I don't think many see the place that I'm talking about. There pain is still pain awareness is as clear as I am siting here the only thing is the rules of this environment are not the same as the here. Through out the internet there are many explanations of obe, astral projection, astral travel, NDE but none of them explain what it is that I'm experiencing the closest is OBE + NDE. Like I said it is the experience of the observer that tries to facilitate his dimension level. I agree you are talented in your quest but I believe in my sense of things the fifth dimension is the highest arena and it most likely includes all of the same experiences that you have undertaken. The human spirit is trapped here on earth and it will never evolve to a higher level. You see the bridge of time is in the fifth dimension it is the gate to the universe it bridges worlds instantaneously allowing a evolved soul to freely move between other worlds and be reborn to them. The soul loses all memories during this process and the human soul can only be reborn here. If someone says that they have ascended and they actually have they do not have a human soul.

As a teenager I started to be able to look in that place I can't explain it but this place exists. I just have to look there and what I saw was a being standing on a bridge and souls lined each side of the bridge. This being has been with me all my life though we have been separated by this place, I feel as though he has always looked over me insuring my well being. In the end of September I was looking for the reason for the grid covering my eyes so I tried the pendulum and I found much more. The ring spoke to me telling many things but most importantly I found my guide and found that the being on that bridge was in fact my soul waiting for me to acknowledge him. Powessy is his name he is slittune of the planet Phane, I watched as he reached up to me and we started to fuze together the bridge is empty now and I feel and see him inside of me as I look in that place, Yes I have won the lottery he has helped me tear down walls that have been with me my whole life he has made me aware of source and I have been visited by the mother of light. He has agreed to go slow and to only give me the things that I'm prepared to receive. In the highest life forms the soul can split, as a portion of their soul is reborn on earth or else where, the main part of the soul awaits for the moment of the individuals enlightenment or awakening this is how a soul can maintain all there memories without the rebirth process.

I am awake, and things are much clearer now, Powessy says that there are only 350,000 higher vibrational souls currently on earth and there are around 450,000,000 human souls on earth that will make it in the end. I have swept the internet for information that matches my visions and what he has told me that is how I came along this site. My intentions is not to measure Dimension size it is only to find the truth.

Kalamos

22nd November 2013, 03:57

..........

TraineeHuman

23rd November 2013, 04:16

Interesting how many members have experienced the lowest level of enlightenment at least. These members could presumably benefit from discussion or material regarding how to increase their level of conscious contact with the Divine Mind. And there's so much about the Divine Mind that can be pointed at for hopefully the benefit of such people -- even though the Divine Mind defies words and description all that much more than the HM does. By the way, folks, although I'm using the word "Mind", don't forget this is Consciousness. In many ways it's more like feeling than thinking, or even more like sensation than thinking. But it's all about knowing (via greater unknowing) -- or I should say experiencing, or being (fully, or more fully). Words words words.

On the other hand, as I've just recently said, anyone who hasn't reached that level of enlightenment and believes they know or understand "God" or "Source" or "the Divine Mind" is, unfortunately, deluding themselves and experiencing nothing more than their HM, I regret to say. This is perhaps a most unfortunate byproduct of the fact that mainstream Christianity -- that instrument of twisting the truth -- speaks of "God" and indeed of "Jesus" as if these were beings anyone is in direct daily contact and perhaps direct daily communication with, provided only that the person professes to have faith in certain dogmas. By contrast, Judaism went through a period of a number of centuries where it was forbidden to talk of "God" by any name -- except to refer to "what cannot be named". A much more honest attitude, and much closer to the truth.

Before I say more about the Divine Mind, I'd like to clarify several points about the descent of the HM. Firstly, the HM (initially) communicates only through a point just to the right of the center of your chest -- very close to the thymus gland. (I suspect it's to the right slightly to ensure that you can distinguish its energy from that of the physical heart.) Once the HM enters permanently and starts to descend, the brain becomes for it only a passive instrument that's silent except when relaying the HM's messages. The brain is a center -- the most dominant center -- of the physical consciousness only. As the Eckankar master says in the videos, intellectuals find it harder to learn to astral travel successfully. That's because the physical brain is what's ultimately responsible for a person's identifying with their physical body or body-consciousness.

If you manage to somehow watch the flow of physical (electromagnetic) energy through your body while you're meditating, I believe you'll notice that it comes down from the oversoul and into the top of your body and down the front of the body, then does a U-turn and travels up your spine to the oversoul area again, and then comes down just to the right of center, from the top of your head and down the surface of your lips and chin and thence to your chest, stopping just to the right of center, level with the physical heart. If you can feel that last downward flow at all, you'll notice the energy is much subtler and feels much nicer. If you can feel that, you simply concentrate on it and thereby you listen to your HM -- as powessy, for example, is now doing. With that "voice" the physical limitations to your mind gradually get removed. Not only that, but more and more you see things, and people, just as they are.

One final thing, for now, about the descent of the HM. Usually it descends in the order: crown chakra, third eye, heart chakra, and so on. But that's not always the case. If it first starts to be stable in, say, the solar plexus center, that will cause certain problems. But that's rare, so I won't go into it now.

And of course for anyone whose HM hasn't begun to descend yet, you still access your HM during each day for moments at least -- whenever you are "just" looking to see what is.

powessy

23rd November 2013, 05:35

Kalamos

23rd November 2013, 06:13

..........

TraineeHuman

23rd November 2013, 07:53

TraineeHuman
I have no idea of HM or all the other stuff that you have found labels for. I just know what he has told me and I am learning what he feels I'm ready for, its as easy as that. Let me ask you should I follow your advice and learn these things or listen to him and allow him to show me in his own way. Powessy has started to show me how to remote view while awake and has refused to talk to me on the ring till I learn these other skills he says that I must first let go of some scars that are still plaguing me so that I can see clearer. I need to learn patience and I need to learn to use the gifts he has given me. I can now imagine anything that I think about but these skills I have just started to try. for example when I try to imagine who you are I see four different girls your age 36 and your name starts with I think a K or it is kay the three girls I seen one is with short blond fluffy hair kind of frizzed, the second was a dark haired girl short rides bike and had sunglasses, the third was a long haired woman with her hair in a pony tail I saw her with a dark haired man walking out of her house, each view was in a climate that didn't require a coat. none of this may be correct but I am going to keep following his advice. You have no idea what he has told me so far so please don't presume that you know what I am going through. I am A person of reason and take nothing for granite. I am atheist and have always been atheist and still am. When you have had all the walls in your life torn down and watch as he sorts through your memories as they flash before your eyes then you can find A label for it, but till then keep thinking the way you do. I didn't ask for this I wasn't even looking for it, I have cried harder in the last month then I have in my whole life every time I feel him I wonder if he is ashamed of me or if he judges me for the simple life I live but love. I have not chosen this and I tear up even now writing this, He always assures me that I have lead the life that I was intended to live and there is a reason. I am a loner I don't acquaint with people nor do I find anything in common with anyone but the members of my family they are my life. I hope that I haven't offended anyone, I was only looking for someone that may be able to help me better understand what I am going through, I will keep looking. Thanks for all the advice TraineeHuman I will look up and read some of the stuff that you have mentioned though I do not feel it will shed light on this problem for you have made it to complicated, it should just flow. You see I could have done all that you have said and still have never meet him, but it was me acknowledging him and seeing him that was all it took none of all that other stuff. look inside of yourself and perhaps you will find what you seek and if you ask her and tell her you are ready she may just grant you your guide for she is source.

If you're able to hear the "voice" of Powessy, that's all you need. As long as you manage to not stop listening to Powessy. By the way, what I mean by "the HM" is, in your case, exactly the same thing as Powessy. You're right -- you don't need to listen to or figure out anything I say, but just to Powessy.

And even if maybe you don't sometimes hear Powessy's "voice" clearly, I find that quite often it's only necessary to know it's better for you to "go left" instead of "go right". Just simple choices like that.

My own version of Powessy eventually, after many years, brought me to where I experience great joy most of the time in the most ordinary things. These are things which others find boring or hard work or unpleasant. My wish for you is that Powessy will eventually lead you to similarly experiencing joy nearly all the time, all day every day. And there are steps beyond that stage too.

My age is 63, not 36. Sounds like you got the "6" and the "3" right but put them in the wrong order. My name doesn't start with a K. Don't worry. Keep working at developing the accuracy of your intuition. I don't know who the people are that you described. I assume they must be guides of mine. But I get so many different guides, and they seem to change quite often. I also have three guardian angels, and they don't change. They come from your "fifth" dimension, and are at a higher level than most guides.

By the way, I'm absolutely sure Powessy isn't ashamed of you.

Also, I happen to know for a fact that the highest spirituality is not the having of the highest level experiences but, after all those highest experiences, in coming back into the ordinary world of work and relationship and still not losing your simplicity and making everything that you got from those high spiritual experiences practical.

Rolci

24th November 2013, 03:40

Can anyone tell me the difference between lucid dreaming and astral projection? Thanks

TraineeHuman

24th November 2013, 08:13

Roki, astral projection is usually used as a synonym for astral travel (though I see it as something a little broader than that). When people talk of astral projection they mean conscious astral projection. "Conscious" and "lucid" really mean exactly the same thing.

When we're dreaming we're astral projecting, but often not consciously. Usually people talk of a dream as "lucid" if the dreamer "wakes up", i.e. becomes conscious they are in a dream, without physically waking up. Usually lucid dreaming is accompanied by the ability to alter parts of the dream itself. One becomes the scriptwriter instead of just one of the central actors. In fact, usually one becomes both simultaneously. One can also often consciously move to a higher level, or do other strange things.

Joe Akulis

25th November 2013, 19:01

Powessey, (or maybe I should call you TraineePowessey? :-)

Please don't leave. For those of us following this thread, like me, who don't have the benefit of the kinds of personal experiences that you have had, it's people like you who are the reason I joined Avalon.

Even though it can be difficult for each of us to compare and contrast all the things we are learning, I wish you would continue to stay around and converse with us about things you are going through. It's my suspicion that more and more people are going to be facing this kind of expansion of ourselves and our abilities and experiences in the future, and I personally feel greatly benefitted by having a place where I can learn from other people who are already going through it. Hearing about what else is out there from just one person may help, or it may confuse. But once you've heard about what's out there from a thousand different people who all come from a thousand different places, THAT's when it all starts to make sense, for me anyway.

Seeker

One word of advice to all on this thread, however: Take care not to just assume that personal details about any of us are okay to share in a forum post, without getting permission from that person first by sending them a private message and asking permission. I like to read about people who can remote view, because it's something I hope to be able to do some day too. But I would definitely be upset if someone just remote viewed me and posted what they saw in a forum thread without even asking me if it was okay first.

Much love to all.

Jake

25th November 2013, 19:34

Powessy, T.H. Has made great effort in trying to keep this particular discussion within the context of what he has learned from his experiences. I have experienced the humility of many of these truths.

If I am to try and explain to others, what my subjective experiences are,, I will be forced to come up with labels. Behind the labels are meanings, and behind them, truth. A truth that can only be experienced. Communion with 'higher self' is set in the eye of the beholder, no? :)

There several threads here at Avalon that attempt to shed light on the Out of Body phenomenon. I certainly do not find myself agreeing with everything everyone says in this discussion,, but I read every single post. And I am enlightened by T.H. and the wisdom put forth in this discussion. I, too, have a strong, passionate, unending fascination with my natural ability to 'project' into the 'astral'. Part of my overall vision is that we learn from each other. And, of course, ourselves.

Obviously, we can gain from your experiences. I would love to hear more. Maybe you should start a discussion that would be able to fully highlight your own wisdom and passion for truth.

I hereby challenge you to help us to understand more about your experiences... :):):)

Peace to you,,
Jake.

TraineeHuman

26th November 2013, 08:11

Once an individual has achieved the initial stage of enlightenment, they can for the first time see what I've called glimpses of the Divine Mind. How this works is that the individual briefly sees or experiences true Oneness now and then, or for hours. Experiencing the Oneness fully. That's what it is in a nutshell. And how does one do that? I'd like to turn that question over to all those of you who have already reached that level.

Usually, in my observations, that initial level of enlightenment happens at close to the same time as the opening of the third eye, and also, alternatively, of the first kundalini experience where one feels the energy (coming from the center of the earth and Gaia) rise to the crown chakra, above the head. So, I believe a number of you are there, and of these at least some have also probably worked sufficiently, or close to it, at disempowering the ego. To anyone who fits that description, I'd like to challenge you to begin exploring and tasting absolute Oneness. Just reach for it.

Oneness is a little like your shadow, in the sense that it's nothing like what you ever imagined, and it continues to surprise you in a similar way even as you do manage to begin to explore it.

I'd like to invite you to share anything about this. For me personally, Oneness has usually felt like a white hole. I mean a white hole as physicists use that term. That's the reverse side of a black hole, and it's where new things get created at the most astonishing pace. In some ways for me it's also often felt like a black hole too, in that it's so riveting it demands the center of your attention. I don't mean a physical white hole or black hole, of course. But something that's a true absolute. Something so huge and powerful that whatever you add to it just gets integrated into it. And blissfully wonderful too.

Kalamos

26th November 2013, 11:41

..........

soleil

27th November 2013, 01:14

i had a dream last night, i was aware and there the entire time, slightly dream state but it was not lucid....amazing. my recall this morning, as though, this event actually happened. colours, faces, feelings. i even felt, physically, in the dream moment, my lips go numb. i felt water go cold. i just was surrounded by amazing friends that i dont know. i hope my dream recall and awareness keeps improving. im going to keep at it, till i am lucid and conscious to obe.

i remember it so well it seems linear like things happened in sequence :)

soleil

27th November 2013, 01:20

powessy

27th November 2013, 04:54

The vision may not be of who you are now but perhaps who you once were or wish you still were I am sorry if I posted information about you incorrectly, I am working at it harder know and as far as you and your guides go they are from the here and so she must have great belief in you. My awakening was supposed to happen years ago but an event occurred that was unforeseeable to me and him, we are now together. over the next few days the hidden will seek you in your dreams they are your souls and will ascend within you, you shall feel a moment of calmness and meet an unfamiliar face be assured this friend will be with you always. I apologize again for any misunderstanding. Those of you with more experience will realize the change immediately others will take time but it is a gift from her.

TraineeHuman

27th November 2013, 05:39

TraineeHuman

27th November 2013, 07:01

(the beginning of) Enlightenment is the liberating realization that you've been thoroughly enslaved and likely still are.

(it doesn't 'feel' good)

Oneness: all consciousness perceives itself in all forms at once. The forms lose their glamour. a hoPe that the glamour becomes steady in the light of oneness, at least for glamour's sake.

Enlightenment -- particularly at its initial level (for lack of a better label) -- is the realization or experience that Thou art That -- that in reality you literally are everything. Further levels beyond the initial one are to do with more and more fully somehow integrating that realization with one's life of having a physical body and mind and feelings -- that is, with life as we know it. And also with eventually all the time seeing and feeling oneness everywhere, penetrating all.

"The" beginning of enlightenment? There are many beginnings that may lead to enlightenment. As long as they're a beginning of the process where the butterfly sees it isn't just its cocoon.

I did once know someone who was badly tortured in Chile, years ago. He was tortured purely because all the educated men in the country got tortured at that time, apparently. And to survive the psychological scars of that, he had found himself experiencing enlightenment as the only way to resolve his problem of having been personally devastated and violated.

The ego is in many ways the antithesis, the opposite, of Oneness. In their "advanced" or esoteric forms, all the ancient Asian meditation traditions were mostly preoccupied with psychotherapy. That's because, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, enlightenment won't free you of the ego. If you don't work very very hard and long at disempowering the ego, then if you're enlightened you'll be a menace. I guess you may even eventually become one of the demonic or archontic beings. Still powerful, and in that sense freed, but a slave to the now powerful ego.

True Oneness implies an extraordinary kind of inner balance. If one is in Oneness, what would there be to be discontented about? There would first and foremost be room for positivity, for profound joy in being all existences at once. Only against that background of extraordinary expanded being could any discontent exist. Such a consciousness could not be enslaved in spirit, I believe, even if it spent its entire physical life behind bars, or in some dead-end job, or some extraordinarily stressful life situation -- like extreme poverty, perhaps.

Living in Oneness means not only seeing from the point of view of Oneness but also from the point of view of all the infinitely many manynesses too. Plus taking delight in them and transforming them somewhat through the power of the Light of Oneness.

Now isn't that worth psychologically dying for, may I ask? That would mean dying to everything you had held to be known to you. That costs nothing less than everything. Dying even to the very notion of being a "self" -- because you never ever were one. You are sure "something", in the sense of being. Only, you're much greater. You really are infinity. But to realize that, you have to have the courage to throw away all that's finite -- at least to do that for one blessed moment. That's when enlightenment happens. Only then. You have to stop trying to scoop up the infinite ocean in a bucket. You have to just try being the ocean.

soleil

27th November 2013, 13:59

sway, I agree with powessy that you seem to be in touch with some positive and helpful guides. In the astral one often needs to be wary of deceptive beings trying to pose as being attractive or positive when underneath their disguise they're something very different. But you don't need to worry about that in this case.

I also agree with powessy that the "get over yourself" insight meant you were clearing away some stuck energy from the past -- which is what the ego is made of anyway. I guess I would "label" what you were doing as some form of self-psychotherapy rather than meditation -- although some types of meditation can certainly be both at the same time. But whatever you did there. I'd keep on doing more of the same.

You do seem to have a gift for what can be called mediumship -- in a broader sense than that of communicating with the dead. I'm sure you would be good at seeing other people's guides. I used to be a natural medium, but for most of my life I've tried to avoid cultivating that particular skill, actually. Just a preference.

i didnt fully describe my dream...so perhaps the guide scenerio could be the case. it was like a "party" at my house. i was going to bed (in dream) and thought how tired was i, but there were things about to happen, that i didnt want to sleep through. so i must have gotten out of bed, and my fiance stayed there. i proceeded to welcome friends, ex colleagues, and friends that i dont know. the friends that i dont know were mainly males, with one female that stood out. i recall saying to her, girlfriends can be back stabbers, and that i hoped she was a good friend. i also, recall explaining to ex colleagues WHY. i quit my job. i said, i can make money anywhere, i dont need to do it at a downtown, multi national company. i can do it living in the country too. mostly i was walking around, being befriended by a few people, mostly they were good looking males, my age joining me for conversation, or for the moment. those are the good feelings, of friends that i dont know. i spent much of the dream, looking for my fiance who was "surfing on the coast". it was a sort of beach party at my house, althought irl there's no beach, but theres one 10mins from here. and a lake beach at that, so no oceans here. i recall one of the males close by said thats where he was. the feeling these people gave me were - very "comfortable to be around" them, but still a feeling of "getting to know you again", with a bit of i "wish they are always around and never leave".

a small other part, (happened in between walking around the party)i was walking around and walked into an office. it looked like one ive worked in, but not exactly. there was a girl there that i used to,work with(she was getting a new keycard) i assumed it was a promotion, but imdidnt want to stay i just kept walking through. the girl is someone that we used to be tight good friends, but i went granola and irl she must not have been ready to,stop clubbing.

the part where my lips went numb, was because i smoked something and it was also quite rainbow and glittery, it made my lips go numb.

last night i dreamt of ....

my grandpa (rip). i think i wrote here before, how he last appeared to me in a dream right after he died, saying it would be the last time i hear his voice. this time, i saw him as how i remembered him, and i remember realizing the feeling, its grandpa! and realizing that he never comes to me. so i go up to him to,ask for help;which is weird bc i probably would have wanted a hug first...he was helping me find my car. which i used to "get there".... he said a few things i wish i COULD remember, but i cant....maybe something like, it is gone, broke down, somone too, it, etc...i dont know.
i also dreamt of my step dad, who was walking in the same parking lot i suppose it was. (hes alive) who i dont talk to. we were amicable in the dream, he was happy to see me, and i felt sorry for my behaviour(for irl- hes an ass and i had to stand up for my self, and help my mom realize she needed to leave him).

i also recall trying to text message someone that called themselves, the "main lane", but on my phone it said danny. i dont know a danny, or a "lane" so this i dont know how to interpret, if at all.

and i stepped into class again, it was like an advanced photography course. i got up to go register, bc i always need to register (lol). i woke up shortly after that. that was all from last night. (so 2 dreams in this post)

i am not sure if it was meditation or maybe a deeper part of me, (or guide?) that tells it to me like it is. i was having a hard time adjusting to a life change and my (get over yourself) was in my perspective to let go of what i think i want, and enjoy what happens.

soleil

27th November 2013, 14:20

Kalamos

27th November 2013, 14:33

..........

TraineeHuman

28th November 2013, 09:13

The afterlife is one subject regarding which there has been little mention in this thread so far, apart from Seeker Joe's references to Bruce Moen's work regarding the somewhat lower levels where every religion under the sun has its own pseudo-"heaven". The afterlife is a huge and important area in itself, for serious people. It has a huge effect on the quality of our next life that comes after our stay there.

I believe there has also, to say the least, been gigantic misunderstanding by quite a few individuals on the Forum over the years, and elsewhere. All the misunderstanding I have in mind has been from individuals who in the end completely and utterly failed or fail in some way to understand or see the difference between the personality on the one hand and the soul or Higher Mind/Self on the other. You are not your personality, your identity. Your personality is just your astral (emotional) body (or sheath) plus your mental body. These do eventually die (usually only after centuries, but they stay kind of frozen and don't evolve for all that time, but at least they eventually separate off from you even if you didn't know you had a HM). Of course they don't deserve respect from any aware being in the afterlife, and so may get "very badly mistreated". Of course you should ideally separate from them at the time of your physical body's death, though few do. These bodies are far easier to identify or "see" than the HM, which is formless, and therefore impossible to pin down or capture. So many people acquire the clairvoyant skill to identify these non-physical bodies, but lack the skill to actually see the HM in itself. This is also complicated by the fact that after death the HM is hampered a little by the strong attachment most people retain to their personality and their insistence to be blind to the fact that they are their HM and not their personality, even though this is quite counterproductive to the HM's own journey. But let's take this slowly, from the top.

When we die we (normally) disconnect from the physical body and are then in our emotional/magnetic body. That disconnection is majorly traumatic for significantly many (something like 25% of people). If you can meditate, it won't be traumatic or difficult for you. Rather, it will be joyful and peaceful. If you can astral travel, or almost astral travel, even a little, then that will also make things immediately comfortable and pleasant for you at this time. Whether the disconnection is positive for you or negative, though, unfortunately you may be like the majority of people and identify your emotional body as the "you" that has passed through death. It isn't the real you at all, though.

We recognize that our physical bodies need exercise. But equally, both of our two after-death bodies need their own kind of exercise -- ironically, so as to make it easier for us (our HM) to shed them more quickly. Meditation enables you to be both "in" and "above" at the same time, even after death. The "above" position enables you to witness whatever's really happening -- to see it from the outside and to see the big picture. When you can see both from the outside and from the inside, that's awareness -- awareness of what you're doing and where you're at. I know it sounds like a contradiction, but as we know the HM has no trouble at all seeing and holding both sides of a contradiction.

With your consciousness (i.e. the formless, and rather invisible, HM) now relieved of the big burden of maintaining a physical body, now it will be much easier for you to astral travel at this time -- and all the more so if you've had any success or partial success at it while you were still with a physical body. In that world, learning to astral travel will be the equivalent of learning to walk and talk was in the physical.

It will be useful at that time if during your physical stay you did plenty of "energy work": psychotherapy, self-facing, defusing of the ego's impulses, plus a general ability to move energy around such as taking it in or giving it out, holding it very steady, and being able in a very general way to "read" the energies in someone else's nervous system any time.

All of the above will certainly make it easier for you to see yourself as separate from, and let go of, your emotional body soon after death. Believe me, you don't want to cling to that emotional body like a security blanket as some (under 10%) do. Those particular individuals may and often do then get reborn still carrying their core baggage with them into their next physical lifetime. That's a tough ride for anyone. Must be lots of horror stories around souls being "recycled" or "kept in prison until rebirth" around that one! So, what you want to do is shed your emotional body ASAP. Then the horror stories certainly won't apply to you. I repeat: the horror stories aren't a picture of what the majority of afterlifers experience.

At this point -- with your emotional body shed -- you'll be there with your mental body, which many at that point unfortunately assume to be their new "self" at this point in their afterlife journey. In this thread I've already made the suggestion that anyone who learns to astral travel a little should learn to mental travel instead. But even if you haven't learnt any OB travel, the education system, despite all the dumbing down, will have given you plenty of mental flexibility and "exercise". It sure still helps, though, if you have learnt to concentrate strongly and to meditate.

Many, many people still have trouble letting go of their mental body, of dying to it at this point. That's because it's the last part of their personality. Many, many people get reincarnated with part of this body still there -- because they haven't learned to let go of that. Lifetime after lifetime, repeating and repeating but slowly making progress.

At some points in this thread I've rather laboriously emphasized the significance of learning to cultivate and stay with and bear silence in your meditation. One reason I've done this was so that hopefully after death you will already have some skill at leaving your personality -- "your" whole identity -- behind, forever. Another reason of course is that "silence" actually isn't nothing. There's no such thing as nothing, in point of fact. But if you truly aim to be silent than you'll stop doing whatever you have been doing so far, leaving the space clear for something deeper to emerge. Something you maybe had never realized was a deeper part of whatever makes "I".

At different times and stages it will become clear that that "silence" is not nothing by any means, but something very conscious, very intelligent. There are various levels to this. At different levels the silence can indeed appear to be "nothing" for a certain period. For example, in the initial experience of enlightenment it seems it's usual to get a glimpse of Source as being extraordinarily (seemingly) passive and "beyond". It's even common for people to jump to the conclusion then that the highest part of whatever they deeply are is "nothing". And indeed, it is nothing that they ever imagined or probably until now understood they were like. Still, it is not nothing. It is existence, fuller existence. To some it can also be "the silence that says far more than any non-silence ever could".

Some may assert that to be concerned with the afterlife -- which is in one's future or past -- is to fail to live in the present. I claim, on the contrary, that the dead and the afterlife are all right here, in the present moment, just in other dimensions. The problem is that what someone is aware of as being in the current moment is usually only a tiny fraction of what is actually there. And that to concentrate entirely on that tiny portion is actually to fail to be aware of the true present moment.

There are many other things to say about the afterlife that we have been misinformed about or received very partial, and therefore very distorted and sometimes quite paranoid information about. Many of these can only be understood properly if one understands certain features of astral travel, meditation, awareness, and the Higher Mind.

Gekko

28th November 2013, 18:38

Hello, and thanks for the thread. I admit I've only read pieces here and there, but I wanted to share a lucid dream which I had a few nights ago. Possibly the very first I've had in which I was able to "test" myself and attempt to get my bearings.

************

I'm walking through some kind of Russian mill town which is situated near the base of a volcano. The sky is very dark, covered by layers of rapidly moving clouds. I'm heading back to a commune of some sort where I have been staying a few nights.

I stop and look up at the volcano. The peak is covered in snow and I notice the beginnings of a sunrise, purple tinged with pink amid swirling smoke and darkness. A few times I see the sun poke out from behind the clouds, still veiled in black smoke rising. The words come to mind: "lavender sunrise". I vaguely make out a series of flags and cell phone towers dotting the peak, with blinking red lights. They're swaying in a violent wind. I am partly in awe of the sight, and partly uneasy considering the possibility of an avalanche.

When I reach the place where I'm staying/living, the dream becomes somewhat lucid. I'm not totally aware of my waking identity, but there is the understanding that this isn't "reality". I ask the people there questions (I don't remember what those first questions were) but they are reluctant to give me answers. I walk into an adjacent room where I see a closed door and a boiler on the far side of the room. Testing myself, I swing the door I had just passed through partly closed, blocking my view, and imagine that the boiler won't be there when I look again. When I look, the boiler has disappeared.

Excited, I walk back into the main room, and as I do, I become aware of a nagging sensation in my REAL (waking) leg. I have a vague understanding that if I move the leg I would wake up and the dream would end. Since I already dreamed of this place many times during the night, I feel it important to ask them what its meaning was and why I'm here. Again, they seem reluctant but just as they're about to answer, my leg moves and I wake up.

************

I find it fascinating that lucid dreaming (or this dream, at least) seems to occur in a delicate intermediate space between waking and deep sleep. Similar to what I experience as hypnagogia, but deeper in the sense of having imagery and characters, rather than the symbolic internal dialogue which usually happens.

TraineeHuman

29th November 2013, 12:19

... i proceeded to welcome friends, ex colleagues, and friends that i dont know. the friends that i dont know were mainly males, with one female that stood out. i recall saying to her, girlfriends can be back stabbers, and that i hoped she was a good friend. i also, recall explaining to ex colleagues WHY. i quit my job. i said, i can make money anywhere, i dont need to do it at a downtown, multi national company. i can do it living in the country too. mostly i was walking around, being befriended by a few people, mostly they were good looking males, my age joining me for conversation, or for the moment. those are the good feelings, of friends that i dont know....the feeling these people gave me were - very "comfortable to be around" them, but still a feeling of "getting to know you again", with a bit of i "wish they are always around and never leave".

...

i am not sure if it was meditation or maybe a deeper part of me, (or guide?) that tells it to me like it is. i was having a hard time adjusting to a life change and my (get over yourself) was in my perspective to let go of what i think i want, and enjoy what happens.

I would question whether these were purely dreams, rather than OBEs in part.

It seems to be the usual pattern that pretty soon an astral traveler wants to meet with others in the astral, and exchange information and companionship. Pretty soon after that, it's usual to develop astral acquaintanceships with others who have very similar interests or talents to yourself.

I remember when I started out I had a whole number of groups of such friends, particularly in North America. I guess that was partly because I needed people who were asleep (but "awake") at the same time as I was. When it was 10 p.m. here in Eastern Australia it would be 4 a.m. or 5 a.m. or 6 a.m. in the Western states of that continent. Because the cities didn't have gigantic signs up with their names, I used to know most major US cities by their bridges.

One day I noticed that not everyone in such an astral group of friends had a silver cord -- which of course meant they weren't currently physically alive. You'll probably come across that sooner or later too.

There are many places to go and things to learn. It depends so much on you. Like attracts like, so if you want to go "higher", you need to be "higher", e.g. happier (I don't mean through alcohol or drugs), more ego-free.

TraineeHuman

29th November 2013, 13:04

soleil

29th November 2013, 17:13

Gekko

29th November 2013, 20:11

If I may ... The volcano obviously represents a gigantic change and personal breakthrough that you're currently resisting. The dream suggests you should simply let it happen. You know you really want it to happen. After all, you're spending your time at the base of the volcano -- conveniently, so close to it that you can't help being affected by it hugely when it erupts. You won't die when it erupts, but the old you will. Take the plunge. Sounds very impressive, very positive.

I do do feel, and see the necessity for, a breakthrough. With all my fervor. The past few months my personality has been running much as it always has, with the usual neurosis, but there is something else happening too. I'm becoming more deeply aware of when I close down... watching myself closely, seeing what thinking patterns and events trigger which emotions, and noting where those reservoirs of potential (whether 'positive' or 'negative') are. Sometimes it's as simple as looking someone in the face and feeling what's there, instead of habitually lowering my gaze. I'm at the point where I can bring those things just below the surface of expression or catharsis. I recover more quickly from negative spirals, and on some days I even find a sort of joy poking through in the presence of crowds (something that used to leave me drained and depressed by the end of the day).

I would protest that I don't know what this breakthrough is, or more specifically, what it would look like. I'm standing at a crossroads with paths leading in every direction; not just in terms of what I should do, but everything about what I am, inside and out. I mean that literally. Perhaps it's not anything I could conceive. But then, it leaves the question of how to let such a thing happen. Maybe I'm too intimidated to know at this time.

Thanks for the insight.

TraineeHuman

29th November 2013, 23:43

hi th, not sure if this question is related, i suppose it is. when i do energy work on myself; such as feeling my awareness in my body or attempting to move my body in energy only, my body twitches big time. for example, rbruces rope method, and once i was writing with my hands energy(just testing out my movements) and i will twitch and snap out of my mindset/trance. am i being too forceful with my movements?

The fact that the twitching is coming up means your awareness is bringing it to the surface to get rid of it. If you see this type of energy in the astral, it looks a bit like a printed electric circuit. People can acquire that type of energy around them by doing such things as playing video games or card games or wasting time in various ways, as well as through doing anything robotic -- which I believe can include self-programming such as visualization exercises/techniques. That energy is all robotic energy. In a sense it's harmless. But in another sense it's something that a person working on their growth needs to get rid of, because the robotic energy sometimes blocks or impedes what's truer and deeper in you. It's a certain kind of facade.

You just have to watch that energy when it comes up, and let it all run itself out. The end result will be that you'll have more true control of yourself, in a good sense, such as it will be very hard for anyone to ever make you a sitting duck. Just allow the twitching to do what it does, and simply watch it, and know it isn't the real you.

TraineeHuman

30th November 2013, 12:31

I'm becoming more deeply aware of when I close down... watching myself closely, seeing what thinking patterns and events trigger which emotions, and noting where those reservoirs of potential (whether 'positive' or 'negative') are. Sometimes it's as simple as looking someone in the face and feeling what's there, instead of habitually lowering my gaze. I'm at the point where I can bring those things [to] just below the surface of expression or catharsis.

If you keep on being very aware of yourself, as you have been, surely that will keep the momentum towards your breakthrough going, and building -- if you don't run away at some point? After all, whatever you put your attention on keeps getting bigger and bigger, surely?

I would protest that I don't know what this breakthrough is, or more specifically, what it would look like. I'm standing at a crossroads with paths leading in every direction; not just in terms of what I should do, but everything about what I am, inside and out. I mean that literally. Perhaps it's not anything I could conceive.

May I suggest it's always the mechanical -thinking mind that asks: "How?" Instead, why not just be, and stay with whatever's there and already in process? Honestly, your ego is what is intimidating you or making you feel confused. The ego isn't who you really are. A crossroads in every way, in every direction of your life? Wow! How wonderful. The feeling that all hell is breaking loose is the best sign that the breakthrough is already starting. You simply have to continue and not give up. The ego has some life-force (it's a living entity) and a little awareness/consciousness. It knows exactly what levers to pull to get you to regret ever taking the plunge. And it seems clear you are already taking the plunge into the "abyss" of shedding some identities. You're already starting to do it. The ego fights you and will fight you with all its might, now. Maybe more vigorously than ever in your life before. Don't be fooled. Bear with the pain and discomfort and fear and confusion -- and just feeling ever so rotten. Face them head on. To get a big breakthrough you have to show what you're made of. Bear it! Stay at peace. Please, none of this feeling a victim because of your discomfort that you don't have a road map.

By the way, thank you. In this thread we like to look at the heart of how the ego operates and what it is, particularly through real-life examples.

Let me digress for a moment to a different point. It's paradoxical, but the biggest breakthroughs take you to a place of having no identity -- at least in the area(s) of your psyche where the breakthrough will occur. And if you can't get to "no identity" (which I doubt), I guess an identity of being "the greatest (in the world)" would be the most preferable, over any other identity. But far better to have no identity, and use only "portable, demountable" identities that your intuition keeps creating afresh for you from moment to moment.

In this thread I've stressed the importance of continuing to bear silence, emptiness, stillness during meditation. You just let the Silence come into you and stay. That higher stillness, or silence, is the key to everything. It will open up your intuition. Your intuition will show you the way, show you what new identity you need (if, indeed, you need any at all) in each moment. The intuition is very creative, always. But you have to listen to the silence before you will be able to hear it.

Essence is what matters, and what survives eternally beyond one's death. Essence is the really big "picture" re you, and is certainly not the particular form that you are, nor any of the details regarding you. Freedom means, in part, being content "just" with the essence. There is such a thing as formlessness. I've been continually aware of it most of my life. It's a higher plane than the world of forms. I've tried hard to make this real to members earlier in this thread.

And if I may, I'd like to ask why should it matter so much whether you can see "the" path for you to go ahead on or not. Do you need to plan everything you do, or what? Firstly, the Higher Mind (the intuition), and indeed even the Divine Mind, usually only reveals the next step to one, or maybe the next two steps. Secondly, until the veil that hides your Higher Mind (your soul, the eternal you) from "you" has been fully removed, you're not really seeing the real you most of the time, but the illusory veil instead. One of the drawbacks of having free will is that you never have enough information to know which is the best possible choice, or why it would be that. Either you have to live with that uncertainty (if you're honest), or you surrender to the Divine and freely give up your free will.

powessy

30th November 2013, 20:04

soleil

30th November 2013, 20:27

powessy

30th November 2013, 22:57

powessy, its happened before, but i dont always do energy work as priority; so it just happened to happen when i Was actively doing energy work recently.

i do admit to playing video games, my fiance bought a few new ones recently as well.

Sway
It is possible that the video games and other things are interfering with your attempts as "TH" had mentioned.
I have been sweeping the internet for weeks now reading from site to site, here is a link to "Dream Views" there are thousands of dreams here from kids and adults alike. http://www.dreamviews.com/content/ "select the dream journals" I realize that you are using a rope technique and are not trying to astral project but many of the kids here on this site play some serious video games it shows in the dreams they have I am not sure this is the problem.
Try not to use the rope technique. just focus an energy band starting on your feet working it upwards to your head try this and see if this helps.
try not to use anything right now that requires your hm to work outside your body.

TraineeHuman

1st December 2013, 00:21

The following is most of a PM from sway, which I'm quoting with her permission, and my response to it.

i did (again last night) dream about my grandpa. which is roughly two nights in a row. i was again somewhere like a subway (subs) shop, and when i left i saw my grandpa in parking lot where my weird little car was.

In dreams, a person's car always symbolically refers to the course of their life, or their life jouney or life situation. Interesting that you currently consider yours to be "weird" and "little". I guess weird allows you freedoms, and I guess maybe in relation to grandpops you were considering yourself a little girl. The fact that you parked your car suggests your life journey is kind of stuck or weighed down a little. Presumably the conditioning related to your family, since gramps was also "parked" i.e. stuck there.

Well, whose inner life isn't stuck due to conditioning from their family -- or used to be until they got free of it? Fortunately, your dream (and therefore your HM) is identifying there's an issue you currently need to face in some way, and break free of inwardly. The family conditioning is holding you back. Do you know what sort of person your parents had "decided" you should be while you were age one, and four, and six? The older a person gets, though, the more practical they become regarding career choices, among other things. (Sorry if that sounds awfully uncool.) It can be very tough, unfortunately, to separate the useful, practical part of your parents' advice from the part that's not really you at all. Trouble is, while you're young you don't know who the real you is, including in the sense that you probably don't know what line of work you would best be suited for, in many cases. Maybe that's not true in your case, sway, but I'm giving an example of how parents' advice does have a very positive side to it in spite of any of their baggage.

I wonder why in the dream you seem OK with having the Subway version of food. In the astral, "food" = awareness. Sounds a little to me like turning your back on some classy traditional restaurant that can serve you truly good quality "food". Just notice that your dream says you're settling for Subway food.

the police were there, inspecting me/himand our cars i think but they advised they were leaving and my grandpa was insistant on leaving NOW. so i insisted to help him, we were moving fast (like on rollerskates) so i held on to him to keep him up and safe. when we were at the bottom of a hill (now near pavement) his sweaters, socks and blankets where strewn all over the place in a mishandled manner. so i urgently picking them up for him to put in/on his trunk. then i went to my car, which was more like a two seater that looks like it attaches to a motorecycle but it wasnt...and my brother was there.

I suspect "the police" were guides or other evolved beings (or they represented some piece of honest truth), and gramps wsn't ready to hear the truth they wanted to say.

It sounds like your brother is stuck in a similar place to you, as far as family conditioning goes. Maybe you could brainstorm with him regarding what that conditioning was? One of the best clues to determing what the family "curse" might be like (I'm using the word "curse" as a humorous exaggeration) is as follows. Look at what you and your brother are determined not to be like. Opposites have a way of becoming variations of the same exact thing in this situation, via your shadow self. You become what you resist.

is this likely to be 2visits from him?
Probably. Being a grandparent, he'd be there just to re-confirm your lovability and worth. Even if he's not there, the dream is reminding you of your worth and lovability in spite of the negative impact of that family conditioning.

im really trying to grasp the mediumship thing....so im trying to understand what the difference is between obe, dreams and talking to spirits? what im experiencing, in your POV.

ive had 5 or 6 ghost/spirit/unexplainable experiences in my life. one, i saw a woman in my periphery, four times my possessions were moved around in a extremly odd fashion ( for me) and i was once pushed by a spirit in my friends house. i havent had anything happen since i was about 22-23 yrs old now.

Well, "spirits" means either beings or entities in some dimensional level at least a little higher than the physical. In most dreams other than nightmares, as far as I know you go to the upper mental ("upper 5D"). I guess "spirits" can be at a lower level. Also, where you go in OB travel may well be a lower level than that. Most travelers seem to find "their" level, but on the other hand I would go to all levels, and it sounds like Bruce Moen did something similar perhaps.

Also, quite often mediums, channelers, clairvoyants etc may pick up (part or all of) a dead personality that the original owner has been smart enough to detach from and "eject" after death. But it will still seem like an intelligent being, and like that person. Many of the readings that some psychics do regarding departed loved ones are probably only tapping into the departed personality and not the real person. That personality has a "database" of most of the memories the person had in their last lifetime.

By the way, you need to let go of any sorrow or longing about losing grandpops. And of any other unfinished business with him. That will only delay his journey of return to the sublime peace of dwelling in/as his HM.

soleil

1st December 2013, 01:13

side note, i was in the shop but i wasnt eating in it. :D

TraineeHuman

1st December 2013, 01:44

Whatever I say about the Divine Mind is going to be misleading for anyone who hasn't had certain experiences. Those experiences need not have been experiences of the Divine Mind itself. But they do need to be of some higher consciousness. They need to be experiences where at least a glimmer of the Divine Mind's light really has shone through. Such experiences will be more vivid and unforgettable than anything else in one's life.

I also feel that maybe there's value just in stating, to anyone interested in spirituality, that true (inner) freedom is only possible with and through the Divine Mind. I guess for some people that might at this stage amount to a challenge to them. Do they realize that the true inner freedom we all thirst for isn't realistically possible, not without an extraordinary leap? What is real freedom anyway? How do you know when you have it? Is it freedom to do what you like? If so, are you perhaps a slave to your likes, and to avoiding all your dislikes? And is there such a thing as purely individual freedom when no man (nor woman) is an island? Doesn't freedom mean being part of something that's really good that's bigger than just one individual? And why is it that all the greatest geniuses claimed they were only taking dictation?

Then there's the fact that the seeds are there, in every human being. Even if it may not be clear what the Divine Mind might really be like, some sort of process and growth towards it is going on, amazingly enough, even if that process might take lifetimes plus. Anyone can still choose to have the strong intention to get closer to the Divine Mind, and to ever so courageously follow that intention -- come what may.

Or, can you simply take the step to living by pure intuition? Jack Kerouac wrote a book called Dharma Bums, based on the experience he and a friend had of basing absolutely every choice in their lives for a number of years on the arbitrary roll of a dice. I suggest that isn't freedom. But maybe some rather rare ones of you can tone down the ego, or have already done so, so much that your intuition is basically clear and true, and so you can let the intuition take over -- your whole life. That intuition will still probably be rather imperfect, but it might be just enough to keep pointing you in the general direction where true inner freedom lies. Maybe it'll be a pretty rusty and 100% reliable compass at first, but still you'll see how it will correctly point, say, "East" as distinct from "West".

Intuition also involves looking inside yourself and finding and mastering the world deeper within, and gently taking control of all the forces and energies within yourself. First and foremost you do this by learning to constantly observe what is happening within.

You have to start somewhere. It will sure be a patchwork job at first. Do it, and the higher Forces (and beings from formless dimensions) will smile on you and lend you support. They will teach you and inspire you -- because you may seem to have bitten off more than you could chew, but that's where the helpers are very willing to come in. But it will cost you the discomfort of having to give up, say, as far as practicable all of our habits, eventually. Well, you said you wanted freedom?

That includes, as far as practicable, all the ancient ego-habits you'd long ago stopped noticing you have. All the shadow habits. This will and does for some time require endless work, endless application of your intention and will, endless more self-watching and flowing. Did I say flowing? Must mean everything gets lighter, including all your burdens. And it means learning to be better and better at giving. Giving more and more, and then some (but not being a soft touch). How broad and deep can you go?

And by the way, you do all that, and I'll bet the higher Forces will make learning to astral travel a cakewalk for you -- even if they have to literally pull your astral body Higher.

TraineeHuman

2nd December 2013, 12:58

Why does the ego exist? And why does evil exist? By now we've briefly explored, sometimes indirectly, some aspects of what the ego is, and some aspects of how it seems to work. That includes the shadow aspect, which we all have, and which shows up when a person unwittingly allows the ego to be in control of them at a certain time.

Several months ago I also asserted that desire is generally the root of the ego. Can we go deeper than that? I feel it's time. Let's start by noticing something that happens as a result of living in limitation, as we currently do (when we're not one with our HM, or with something even higher). In being stuck in such a world of limitation, absolutely everything we attempt to feel or know or see will be self-limiting.

We have to start from somewhere, though. And we have all put ourselves into this physical world of severe limitations -- and that's a fact. We've done so with the aim of ultimately outgrowing and mastering those limitations. To do this at all, we needed some kind of working reference point to begin from. That reference point, that "self", was the ego. How can the ego even begin to help us learn those lessons, though? The ego was just what we were stuck with, initially -- it was all we had at that point. How, though, could the ego, unwittingly, prepare the ground for something higher (the HM) to eventually step more and more into its place?

The ego could make this possible only by making mistakes, which we've then learnt from, again and again. I believe that's the only way. Does anyone out there have a better idea of a way to achieve the miracle of growing out of severe limitations? If you do, I'm sure certain Higher Forces would be glad to create a new kind of universe somewhere to try your idea out.

Eventually dissolving all the limitations. Miraculously, turning all the ignorance or lack of consciousness or wrong consciousness into all-consciousness. That's the omega point -- that kind of secretly underlies everything that leads up to it. A kind of "anti-shadow you" -- the antithesis of your shadow self. Anyone whose consciousness saw things absolutely truly would be incapable of evil.

What can we do practically to speed up this learning process? The first thing is to keep looking at ourselves very, very deeply. We need to see for a fact that, for instance, our "personality" is really a conglomeration of many smaller sub-personalities. These come from who knows where -- past lifetimes, conditioning, our own ideals or dreams. Looking deeper still, we need to become very aware of how little control of all this we have.

Not only do we have little control, but if we look very honestly we will soon figure out that the forces within us -- for good and for evil -- are gigantic. Jung talked about how all sorts of Archetypes live within us. They're not made of cardboard or something -- they're alive and intelligent. These Archetypes are huge -- they're universal, as big as the universe. They are much, much bigger, greater than what the "normal" human in our society conceives themselves to be. The only way to overcome the power of the archetypal evil in us is to find something greater in us that's positive.

This is ultimately the reason why it's so important to begin to find your HM. And to consciously, actively put it in antithesis to your ego, so that it strongly overshadows the ego. Once you do, the super-forces of good in you and coming through you will become stronger than those of evil, that manipulate you through the ego.

Otherwise, forces which are or seem Demonic may take root in a person -- as I take it the Horus-Ra thread attests. On the other hand, positive forces of and for good can come to "possess" a person. But these do it with the person's full cooperation and choice. That's ultimately where we all should aspire to be, I suggest.

By the way, it isn't absolutely necessary to learn to "talk" to your HM or hear it "talk" to you, the way NancyV or sirdipswitch or, presumably, powessy do. You can bypass that stage and go directly into receiving fragments from the Divine Mind, which is at a far higher level of consciousness than the HM.

In my (probably) next post I'd like to talk yet again about intuition. In the light of this post, I trust it'll now be clear that cultivating the intuition is in fact to cultivate a truly gigantic Force for good in your life.

TraineeHuman

3rd December 2013, 02:28

In this thread I've very frequently referred to the importance of constant self-watching, including staying right in touch with whatever you feel inside you at each moment. Once you're able to do that all the time, you've indeed united with your HM at least, and any suffering or unhappiness in your life eventually becomes lighter and lighter. And as I've said before, I'm not exaggerating when I say "all the time", until it becomes normal to you. But it's not a "practice", not a chore at all, like some sort of homework. It's not about effort, but about letting go of effort and using something far subtler -- though you do initially use some will, and later a much subtler form of (Higher) will. Constant self-watching is a way of being (more) truly alive and awake. It's also a very important component, if not the most important one, in eventually getting into permanent union with your HM. There's a video in the recent thread
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66037-Kiran-Mystic-Girl-in-the-City-Buddha-at-the-Gas-Pump-Interview--Video-&p=766153&viewfull=1#post766153
which explains various aspects of how to do proper self-watching extremely well and easily.

Kiran also ties this in extremely well with what I've talked about as feeling the aliveness. Also with what we've said earlier in this thread about the crucial importance of self-acceptance, unconditional self-liking, and self-forgiveness. In this video these and some other "spiritual" "practices" we've mentioned are explained in ways that hopefully will give you insights into many of the most important issues. And Kiran reminds us that it all brings greater fun, or as I would say, it eventually brings huge bliss, even if it may mean sacrificing some pleasures or comfort zones in exchange for that bliss.

She also often makes it clear that these sorts of practices, and meditation, aren't stodgy, tight-assed "disciplines" primarily, even though I guess it's true that a certain amount of self-discipline and self-denial is involved. But it's not the main thing in the foreground, and it's also in some ways the opposite both of stodginess and of flakiness.

TraineeHuman

4th December 2013, 00:47

Intuition doesn't work accurately if you haven't deconstructed and defused most of the ego's action. Until that time, the ego is the point from where the very powerful negative Forces mentioned in my second last post have leverage over you. The easiest way I know to contact the very powerful positive Forces is through intensive meditation. These positive Forces strengthen the true intuition.

In my own experience of meditation, what happens is that I go deeper and deeper into a stillness that seems to be so very much "nothing" that it goes way beyond time and form and then even beyond the subject/object distinction. OB to the highest levels, if you like. All distinctions collapse, except that the seeming emptiness that is left turns out to be the true "I". The totality of creation and life could be wiped out and extinguished, and this true "I" is still very contentedly there. Nothing else is as certain. To me, intuition is a type of aftertaste of that, which I bring into my life in the physical and into my life in levels only slightly above it. It's part of the gigantically great joy of the true "I" reaching into the lower world we live in.

In addition to strengthening the positive, though, we need to defuse the negative. The two areas of work are mostly not reciprocal. After I first experienced Source fully at sixteen, it was particularly harrowing for me to handle the demands of "normal" social interaction. As a result, for two decades I was exceptionally nervous and stressed on the outside while hugely at ease and at peace on the inside. I was outwardly nervous because couldn't everyone see how insane and petty so much of what they considered normal life actually was? When I did psychological tests at that time, the scores I got suggested I wasn't neurotic, unlike the scores of most of the population. But there is a special kind of suffering in adjusting to not living in suffering within yourself and yet playing the game of normal/ordinary. Witness Kiran's suffering, in the video above, after going fully into Source and then immediately after, when she returned to the world of the physical body and society. It took about three decades before I began to learn how to play the normal/ordinary game and outwardly demonstrate the gigantic ease which had always been there deeper inside since my first experience of Source. One day I hope to bring the profound peace down into the physical so fully that, I'd like to hope, wherever I go people will somehow feel a strong peace in the air.

When intuition works without the interference of the ego, it's like a light, like lightning, that flashes on and puts us in strict sight of, or direct contact with, the truth. This is a more direct knowledge than that from the senses or the mind. For a long time of working with intuition, it comes to us only in flashes, with darkness all around. Please note: it is we who must become broader and grow bigger, in order to be able to receive it less partially. Becoming broader in this sense can enable an individual to bypass the need for various reincarnations. Those would have been needed to make that individual's consciousness more rounded, more fulfilled.

Especially we need to open up our inner part, and make it much better at listening and receiving. Again, the need for solid, intensive meditation, plus practice practice of exercises, such as all the exercises I've described in this thread. Can we be big enough inside to receive the whole universe? And then, to hold that realization while learning to keep our feet on the ground? Can you swallow an elephant?

TraineeHuman

5th December 2013, 05:39

It occurs to me that some members may not have had any or much serious "training" in the basics of meditation. I'd like to recommend the following videos to any such members:
http://www.adyashanti.org/cafedharma/index.php?file=video

Here adyashanti explains how the essence of Stillness is "allowing everything to be just as it is". This was also what the Buddha used as the primary instruction for what the basis of meditation is. You'll also find it in videos by anyone coming basically from the Advaita Vedanta tradition, such as Andrew Cohen, for instance. "Allowing everything to be exactly what it is" takes some trial-and-error practice for most people.

Actually, feeling the aliveness in you is another way to get into Stillness too, but it's best just to do one or the other -- and not worry about thinking about them.

TraineeHuman

6th December 2013, 05:58

There's an interesting view on why astral projection/travel/bilocation is difficult for most people in part of the material in pumashared's thread in General Discussion entitled: Your opinion? The Revelations of an Elite Family Insider (2005). The document containing Insider's replies to questions that pumashared links to is:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/403303/The-Revelations-of-an-Elite-Family-Insider-2005

The two excerpts from Insider's comments are as follows.
Insider: "The [physical] body [consciousness] forces you to experience empathy, hate, remorse and all other emotions, together with desires and passions, to confuse you, make you forget yourself, become a dumbed-down version of yourself. They have their foundation in this material/physical world. The more you let them be your masters, the stronger you will chain yourself to this world, which is contrary to your duty, yet do not loath them, respect. I channel them to a place where they can be used for something substantial."

"... your physical body ... rebels every time you reach higher to that realm. Physical body has the task to let you experience this reality and whenever you search for the other, it resists. It is it´s duty so respecting it and gently taming it is the best approach. Also beings will accompany your thoughts and try to divert them, again it is their duty, show respect and that will be recognised by them. Never see them as malicious or evil, they only react to your actions. There is not a force which does not want you to be what you really are, the opposite is true but they also have their tasks that they must fulfill. This is about a material part of you."

I see the first excerpt as referring to the ego -- which is always strongly attached to the physical body and also to a physical-mind image of oneself. The second excerpt is also about the ego and how it can attract "hostile" or deceptive entities or beings who can't actually harm you unless you let yourself be conned into believing they can -- and then, through your power, maybe they can.

Does anyone have any comments or reflections?

I have almost always preferred to enter the astral or mental worlds from above (e.g. from deep meditation), and not from the physical which is below (though very intertwined with these). That way, I'm entering from a space of Silence that, initially at least, is beyond the ego, and therefore not subjected to the above difficulties.

TraineeHuman

6th December 2013, 08:48

The Upanishads are full of verses that talk about Oneness in various ways. The following extract from near the beginning of the Maitri Upanishad asserts that the only real intelligent/aware being that inhabits the physical body is "eternal, unborn" and so on -- which amounts to them being the Higher Self/Mind at the very least. If this is true (and I claim to know it is), that casts a whole different light on who/what it really is that goes traveling beyond the body. Here's the extract from the Maitri Upanishad:

Now, the Vālakhilyas are reputed as free from evil, of resplendent glory, living in chastity. Now, they said to Kratu Prajāpati : “Sir, this body is like a cart without intelligence (a-cetana). To what supersensuous being, we ask, belongs such power whereby this sort of thing is set up in the possession of this sort of intelligence? Or, in other words, who is its driver? Sir, tell us what you know!”

Then he said to them:—

“He, assuredly, indeed, who is reputed as standing aloof, like those who, among qualities, abstain from interaction with them—He, verily, is pure, clean, void, tranquil, breathless, selfless, endless, undecaying, steadfast, eternal, unborn, independent. He abides in his own greatness. By him this body is set up in possession of intelligence; or, in other words, this very one, in fact, is its driver.”

Then they said: “Sir, how by this kind of indifferent being is this sort of thing set up in possession of intelligence? Or, in other words, how is this one its driver?”

Then he said to them:—

"Every truly awakened person is a partial individuation of the supersensuous, self-limiting Person. Verily, that subtle, ungraspable, invisible one, called the Person, takes up residence here [in the body] with a part [of himself] without there being any previous awareness [other than his], even as the awakening of a sleeper takes place without there being any previous awareness."

jtcribbs

9th December 2013, 05:25

TraineeHuman

9th December 2013, 23:24

Hi Gekko, most of my lucid activity is also on that intermediate stage between waking and coming out of deep sleep in early morning. I'm getting more a sense that our higher bodies, astral bodies and higher, basically need a "recharging" for most of the overnight and then coming out of that waking consciousness can basically turn back on. What happens as people develop great skill at OBE appears to be them gaining that waking consciousness in their astral body before they manage to gain waking consciousness in their physical body...

It's important to lay down to sleep with intent at the start of the night and often you find later your waking consciousness in lucid dream then doing what you intended to do at the start of the night. As if the memory of that holds, the bodies get a recharging, and waking consciousness turns back on right where it was thinking...

Yes, indeed. I agree completely. When we sleep we re-energize ourselves. More specifically, we go through a certain cycle of states. One of these is that of deep sleep. This is when the physical body does virtually all its self-healing, and probably when most of our psychological/emotional healing occurs also. During deep sleep, our brain operates with delta waves -- slow, extremely low frequency waves. Of course, the brain is not the mind or the consciousness (the HM). But when people are awake, usually the only ones who manage to experience delta waves are very experienced meditators. Also, there are studies that suggest that the most effective psychic healers are individuals who can drop into delta (while awake) within a matter of minutes, and that they do their healing while in that state -- which is a state of full connection with the HM and probably, I expect, of connection with the Divine Mind.

By the way, whenever a person dreams their brain waves become what are known as theta waves. These are not as deep or slow as delta waves, but they're the second slowest type of brain waves.

I'll make a post shortly saying more about the relationship between the consciousness and the energy bodies, and the effects of this on our daily life, both waking and sleeping.

TraineeHuman

10th December 2013, 04:46

The astral and the mental bodies you can OB travel/project in are parts of you, and specifically they are parts of your personality. As far as I understand, they are created by your consciousness prior to or at birth. At birth and in the first nine years they are extremely impressionable, and are moulded in certain ways by one's parents and by other conditioning -- and significantly by any traumatic experiences. Your consciousness also controls all the systems in your physical body -- digestion, breathing, circulation, and so on. It does this in collaboration with your cells -- each of which has some consciousness.

Your (higher) consciousness is your Higher Mind. We could say that it is you, except that most individuals don't know who/what they are. They will at least have moments of (higher) consciousness, whenever they are being truly aware. Really, who/what you are is more than this. But until you are basically united with your HM, you won't be able to appreciate or know that you are more than the HM. This is despite the fact that, know it or not, you are in communication with your HM throughout most dreams. And also despite the fact that your being goes into delta -- which is superconsciousness, and part of the Divine Mind -- while you are sleeping, and the part of what is really you that you think of as "you" sleeps unconsciously, and probably doesn't want to face the superconsciousness that, as I say, an important part of the true fuller "you" already is.

Ironically, it's been very thoroughly proved by childhood psychologists that for approximately the first eight months of life, a child sees itself as being the whole universe, and therefore in effect as Source. In an adult this would be called a state of enlightenment, and certainly it's a state of seeing everything in a non-separative way. On the other hand, usually at age four (or maybe earlier), virtually everyone in our society goes into "childhood amnesia". What this means is that a new "self" takes over their personality, and shoves virtually all the child's prior memories into their shadow, into the unknown. One part or spin-off of an individual's journey to liberation is the recovery of memories of everything major that really happened in those first four years. Usually it's also necessary to re-view what really happened at later ages as well, and beyond childhood. Around eight years ago, for instance, I finally reached a full enough awareness regarding my stepfather, who didn't come into my life before age ten. I was able to figure out that he was a paranoid schizophrenic throughout all the years I knew him -- and that he was paranoid about me also! To him, my mother liked me too much, and probably more than she often liked him, or at least that was what he imagined. As a result he had spent many years trying to covertly sabotage me in ways I had never suspected, until eight years ago. That's only one example of one layer of "the onion" of one's past that we all need to unravel and come to insights of broadly what really happened.

What's also ironic is that you could quite truly say that your physical, emotional and mental bodies are all just different and secondary states of your consciousness. The trouble is, most people allow themselves to be largely dominated by their moods. We should be aware that we are constantly affected by the contents of such energy bodies in other people and even in different places and different objects. (Actually, also by the bodies that make up our own personality -- which is why we need the HM to come back and transform them.) Although we don't physically see these, actually we do feel a strong impact from the "energies" or the mood of others as well. For example, if the boss walks past many people will suddenly go quiet and perhaps behave in an inhibited or conscientious way. And they will do this because they directly "feel" the impact of the boss's "energies".

In light of this, I recommend meditating before you go to sleep or before you astral project, because hopefully that will enable you to partially or fully detach from the personality, which is the part of you affected by moods and so on. Another related issue is that your personality will typically have thousands of energetic cords to the personalities of others, living and maybe even dead. Particularly to your parents and any spouse/partner or children, but also to friends, schoolteachers, employers, and so on, past or present. This was discussed early in this thread, but the more you can detach and be aware of your HM or bring in your HM, the less strong the effect of those chords will be. If you're astral projecting and you have some strong cords to someone who's currently in a bad mood or currently feels negativity towards you, that unpleasant energy will partly affect the quality, or the pleasantness, of your astral projection experience. Again, the best solution, if you can do it, is to get united with consciousness (your HM) permanently. Then, just as "enlightenment" means a great lightening of any and all emotional suffering or burdens, you'll be largely free of unpleasant experiences of any sort any time you astral project.

Another structure or system is that of the chakras. Some claim that there exists something called "the etheric body" between the emotional/astral/magnetic body and the physical body. I claim that the facts are, there is no body there, but only energies of connection between the two types of body. The chakras are located in the emotional body, but they have substantial connections into the physical body, and help to regulate its health. Actually there are some chakras that connect to above the head or below the feet of the physical body, and therefore not to the physical body itself. Because the chakras connect in this way, when you astral project you temporarily turn off most such connections. This is why beginners in astral travel will always briefly experience something like quite worrying nausea in their solar plexus area, and maybe some other unpleasant sensations at other major chakra areas of the physical body.

Joy_P

10th December 2013, 16:40

TraineeHuman

11th December 2013, 02:08

TraineeHuman, Can you have a different personality in the astral realms?

I dreamed once that I was trying to help a ghost realize she was dead. When she stubbornly resisted, I thought it was hilarious. That's usually my attitude in the astral (or whatever it is). I think everything is funny. This is not my normal state of mind in 3D. I'm usually pretty serious.

Yes, the astral seems to have at least seven different levels or worlds, and the mental at least three. When you're in any of these levels except probably the lowest astral level -- which is the level where earthbound individuals, the "ghosts", stay --, you temporarily shed your connection to your most dense or "rubbish" energies, more and more the higher the level. Beyond the two lowest levels of the astral the law of gravity stops operating at all. But there are many other ways in which these worlds/levels operate under fewer "laws of nature", hence there's greater freedom and a higher and higher level of energy the higher you go. Also a different kind of perceived reality. I find it amazing to observe a person going through death, just after they physically die. They shed ever so many of their negative qualities and sub-personalities within the first few hours. And underneath all that, their strong positive qualities (which are mostly part of the HM) have been right there trying to shine their light all the time -- mostly without the person having recognised this while they were physically alive.

When a person dies they initially go to the middle of the seven astral levels. I've noticed that many seem to spend parts of their first day after death flying around like a young kid with their first bike, because they've found themselves in a world with no gravity. Admittedly, immediately after death everyone also needs to do a stocktake and work out where the "hell" they now are, and that's a major issue they have to get through initially.

As far as I'm aware, most of our dreams (other than nightmares) occur in the highest of the mental worlds. That's certainly a much more joyful and easeful place than the physical world we live in. And yes indeed, Joy, the "you" at that level, with all that's you at lower levels temporarily disconnected, is a much more joyful being who can see humor in everything.

Kalamos

11th December 2013, 03:15

..........

TraineeHuman

12th December 2013, 04:19

I have been learning to differentiate between the lower self (personality) and the higher self (SELF or Soul) by a method I'm learning through Esoterics.

That's certainly a good attempt at describing a very big picture of things, Henry. In this and another post or two, I'd like to point out at what points I disagree or believe I know more correct information. That's not to deny for a moment, though, that your post presents insights which may be very useful.

When you say you're learning to differentiate between the lower and Higher self, do you by some chance mean you're learning to differentiate experientially? I'm afraid I need to say that pure reason, or conceptual information, is on its own no substitute for the experience. It can, however, guide one towards certain experiences, and show one where to look further and commit to. But the experiences -- some experiences at least -- need to happen.

I'm taught the SELF (atman, monad, whatever) is involved and enveloped in material bodies of different grades, for want of a better term (vibration, density).

Well, I understand the experience of all or virtually all the greatest mystics has been that even the lowest of the formless worlds have absolutely no defining "vibration" at all -- certainly none in anything like the physical or energetic sense of "vibration". (As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, there are Higher analogues, e.g. change itself is a Higher analogue of what most people consider time to be -- though the "time" of science is only the measurable part of time, which is only a tiny part of what time actually is. By the way, all of time other than that tiny part, is an example of something that's formless. Anyone who supposes there are no such things as the formless will be committed to believing that the "time" of science is the only true kind of time. If you go to any Philosophy Department at any university, they'll politely laugh at you if you believe that. The truth is, real time doesn't flow at all, and the only real time that exists is the eternal, ever-changing Now -- containing all pasts and futures in it as concepts now.)

The experience of the greatest mystics has also been that there definitely and absolutely is no such thing as a Causal "Body". In the Zen tradition, for instance, its most famous debate, continually revived for centuries, was over whether the HM should be considered to be "Big Mind", or instead "No-Mind", i.e. no "Causal Body" of any sort whatsoever. The "No-Mind" faction totally won this debate, and with a vengeance. And they did it partly by applying pure reason, but primarily through careful reflection or deep enlightened experiencing of what reality is at deep levels. (There have been various books written about this.)

Again, in the Vedanta (Hindu) tradition, every last single great or famous guru has claimed, and realized for a fact in their own experience, that there is absolutely no such thing as a Causal "Body".

I'm not saying to blindly follow the true experts or authorities. But unfortunately, as far as I can tell, everyone I have come across who claimed there exists such a thing as a "Body" at a Causal (or HM) level seemed to do so out of ignorance and out of a lack of adequate direct experience of sufficiently higher levels of reality. I also suspect that the claim that a Causal Body must exist is partly based on the false assumption that, at any level, if you don't have a "body" of some description, you can't exist there.

On the topic of "matter" and "material" so-called "bodies", I wonder to what extent you're aware that by the early twentieth century atomic physics had proved that matter is nothing but a fiction, as far as any of it existing in the physical world goes? (Kind of like an optical illusion with practical usefulness , but still purely a fiction when you carefully investigate what it really is.) This revelation inspired or strongly catalyzed gigantic upheavals in the world of the arts.Physics had for some centuries continually discovered only forms and empty space, and nothing else, where it had been supposed that "matter" existed. In this way physics had proved that the (purely) physical world is made out of nothing but form and space.

The advent of the further development of quantum theory, along with quark theory and string theory, not only "rubbed it in" that physics doesn't actually deal with matter (as anything at all that's in any way other than pure form and space only). It also added the fact that the physical world of forms and space contains major areas of unknowability. Just one example was something I mentioned and explained particularly in post #1061 here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-hapen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=697302&viewfull=1#post697302
In that post I explained how it is simply a fact -- not a theory! -- that electrons are not object, or particles -- and that physics has proved that the physical world is ultimately not made of particles at all. This is a "matter" of simple fact, not opinion. Some two weeks after there appeared the following thread: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61206-How-to-Create-a-New-Self-Deepak-Chopra&p=7027988viewfull=1#post702798
This began with a video of Deepak Chopra saying the same thing, plus some of the implications of it that I hadn't mentioned. Some of Deepak's language was simpler than mine, and he described more of the implications of this than I had done.

I'll save my further specific comments for another post or two, Henry. For now, back to some general issues. At the risk of sounding boring, let me say that spirituality is primarily about having certain experiences -- and integrating them into one's life. I don't care what level of experience a person is at, provided they're meditating daily and working daily to uncover and face their ego at least in some small way. Preferably also every day putting aside all their limitations, somehow. All my posts are intended for individuals such as this. You don't go to cookery classes unless you're willing to work on making meals.

Spirit and mind are different things, and it helps not to confuse them. I've been talking much about the HM, which is a type of Consciousness, as a Higher Mind. The word "Higher" is meant to signify that this is something radically different from and way beyond the limitations of ordinary mind. It knows directly, though often not completely. The intellect or ordinary mind (even though it has many distinct parts) never knows anything directly. It knows only superficially, from externals. All it has is symbols or words or pictures, which are indirect, and not the thing itself. I use words here because I expect readers to (use their HM to) penetrate directly to the meaning.

Kalamos

12th December 2013, 04:44

..........

Eram

12th December 2013, 06:29

Hi TraineeHuman,

I've hesitated to post here for a while, since I have been reading in the Laurency material, which contradicts some of what you teach and I don't want to create disturbance in this beautiful thread.
After your last post, the temptation to jump in and discuss what you wrote got the better of me though :P. I hope you don't mind and if you do, I'd be happy to delete the post.
But.... maybe a small debate might fit in here without disturbing the flow of the thread too much.
It's an interesting debate after all :)

I know, you said that experience is king and I fully agree, but we need certain hypotheses to work by in order to accomplish growth isn't it? So it is of great importance that this hypothyses represents reality as best as possible.
By the way.... experience is king yes, but it only becomes so after we are able to reach an objective (factual) interpretation of this experience imo.

The debate of matter and it being an illusion or a reality is a difficult one and in the end, there might not be an objective proof for either of those ideas.
Not at the level of physical life anyway.

Just the observation that electrons don't behave as particles is no proof that therefore matter is not real. It is a subjective conclusion that is drawn out of the observation that electrons don't behave as particles.
Another explanation might be that all the worlds (their matter) are created out of the matter from the next higher world (which in case of the physical world would be the first etheric world) and what scientist observe are the borderlines of this model of creation.
In this model, matter can be both real and behave in unknown ways at a subatomic level.

The hylozoic (esoteric) explanation of reality teaches that reality (in all worlds) consists of three major components.
Matter, motion and consciousness.
I have not found objective proof for this so far, but however I toss this idea around and fit it in with other ideas and observations, it is by far the most sensible idea that I've ever come across.
Better even, it allows me to see through a lot of ideas that I clung to before.

How would you explain the existence of consciousness if there is no matter and motion to be conscious of TH?

The experience of the greatest mystics has also been that there definitely and absolutely is no such thing as a Causal "Body". In the Zen tradition, for instance, its most famous debate, continually revived for centuries, was over whether the HM should be considered to be "Big Mind", or instead "No-Mind", i.e. no "Causal Body" of any sort whatsoever. The "No-Mind" faction totally won this debate, and with a vengeance. And they did it partly by applying pure reason, but primarily through careful reflection or deep enlightened experiencing of what reality is at deep levels. (There have been various books written about this.)

Again, in the Vedanta (Hindu) tradition, every last single great or famous guru has claimed, and realized for a fact in their own experience, that there is absolutely no such thing as a Causal "Body".

Could you provide some reading material (titles of books) were I can read up on these matters TH?
I'd be interested to learn more about this and how they came to the conclusions that they made.

TraineeHuman

12th December 2013, 09:47

Hi Eram,

If a particular conceptual framework works so well for you, why not stick with it -- until maybe (and I personally would say hopefully) you're clearly experiencing things that don't fit with it.

Some of the issues you're raising are central issues of philosophy. Unfortunately I'm not interested in trying to provide a lengthy lecture course in pure philosophy, which is what I believe your questions would require. I am somewhat interested in applied philosophy, though, because it's relevant to helping people understand their spiritual experiences and insights -- particularly phenomena like enlightenment and what is really involved in getting to enlightenment and even to liberation. Some academic philosophers believe that philosophy shouldn't even be taught to undergraduates. That's because it would be too abstract and subtle (and probably is!) for most university undergraduates to grasp. Unfortunately, I believe it would be too demanding for me (or almost anyone) to write and conduct an online philosophy course.

The most easy to read account of much of the metaphysics (i.e., the implicit order of what sorts of things exist) of modern physics, up till about the mid-twentieth century, is The Dancing Wu Li Masters, by Gary Zukav. There is, or was, a paperback version. I guess you could also watch Deepak Chopra's video that I referenced above.

Another book that is simply written, and it's also short, is The Concept of Mind, by the late Prof. Gilbert Ryle (1959 I think, Cambridge UP). In that book, Ryle proved by pure reason that the whole notion of mind is like a ghost in a machine -- just an illusion. Well, actually, he did give an alternative, which he called "pantheism" -- or, rather, that there is one Great Spirit throughout the universe that we mistakenly believe we see as all our separate individual minds --, which he dismissed as ridiculous. Mystics know the latter is the case, but they know it through direct experience/awareness. Read the Upanishads, if you like.

All the literature of Zen is packed with references to formlessness and things even beyond that, though it may be in terms such as "that which is unborn in you". Similarly, the Vedas, the Gitas, the Upanishads are absolutely full of references to formless phenomena and even far beyond, though they won't always explicitly say something like "that which has no form". All the Masters or Gurus from those traditions directly or indirectly refer to what their "scriptures" discuss. And formlessness is mentioned continually.

As far as your saying that pure consciousness needs something to be conscious of, again, mystics like me know through direct experience that such objectless consciousness is the only type of consciousness to be found in the worlds of Source. Since Source creates everything else, that consciousness is self-sufficient without the need for matter.

If this reading list isn't enough for your purposes, Eram, please let me know.

Kalamos

12th December 2013, 14:10

..........

Highwhistler

12th December 2013, 14:12

Jake

12th December 2013, 16:01

soleil

12th December 2013, 16:17

Highwhistler

12th December 2013, 17:39

When you are having an OBE, and if you realize that you can control where you're going, try to go to a quiet place in Nature ... like the top of a noble, favorite old tree. Settle into the tree ... and then meditate. Meditation is absolutely spectacular when in the out of body "form" as you are not using the same mind-brain instruments that you use here in the physical world.

Actually, you may have a visible form (like a "light body" or something that looks like your physical body but that is not limited by gravity or walls) ... or you may not have a physical form. Either way ... try not to be afraid. Fear usually brings you right back to your physical body in 3D -- and the OBE is over.

I feel that the important thing to realize during a fully conscious OB experience is that YOU are a functional, non-physical, center of life and consciousness, whether you have a form or not.

The meaning of "functional" in the last sentence is that you have directional control abilities, that is: you can travel up, down, left, right, and even instantly teleport to other physical locations or dimensions ... you can think if you want to (but what is "normal thinking" here in 3D is usually irrelevant during an OBE), you even can check-in with your 3D body from time-to-time to make sure its OK, and then return to your OB experience as a wide-awake center of awareness.

And so during an OB experience, you may notice that at times you have a body (like you may be soaring over a forest and you notice your hands and legs) and at other times you do not have a body ... but you still are a fully functional, awake center of consciousness. Both form and formlessness can happen over an over again during a single OB experience. Just know its totally natural and normal. You might be looking at your hand and forearm ... and then it fades away into nothingness ... but you remain unharmed in any way as a functional, alive and awake center of consciousness (and you can continue on with your OB experience). That scenario -- of having a body and then not having one during an OBE -- is called the "Alice and Wonderland Effect."

Highwhistler

12th December 2013, 17:55

before i forget...ive been on and off about whether i should be asking about this. as im slowly losing the exact memory.
in a dream last weekend, i came across a being, that was blue like tourquoise etheric, even though i could even see clothes and face and shape. it was obviously non physical to me, although i had never seen this type of "person" before, ever, anywhere. as soon as i saw this being, i realized i was the only one who could! i was exclaiming, "hi ghost!" and "cant you see them?" then, the blue etheric looking person/being started to come towards me; and i got spooked, so i was saying "no no dont come here" but it/they( may have been 2) appeared beside me as twolittle light like orbs, that i blew away from me as though i was blowing out a candle. they didnt blow out, they just blew away. i didnt intend to be afraid, or shut them out. i just felt unprepared to interact up close.

was this obe or a dream? is this a typical look, of a being in astral?

I think it was a dream as you start out the story by saying "in a dream last weekend."

But then, I feel that dreams are not exactly like what our parents, teachers and priests believe them to be.

I sense (from direct, first-hand experiences) that we are full, active participants in a Multiverse. Being human on Earth is not just living in a 3D world ... each human being is a center for the experience of multiple dimensions, multiple universes. And so a simple dream can be threads of our awareness that are popping into other dimensions and worlds that are as valid as physical Earth.

A human being is really more like a multidimensional, atmospheric, quantum field-based, spiritual center of awareness -- and one aspect of ourselves is seen here in the physical world.

TraineeHuman

12th December 2013, 20:51

22The causal world is sometimes called the formless world, a misleading expression. The causal
world is filled with the forms of the natural kingdoms existing in that matter. The term formless
has been assigned to that world, since the vibrations of evolutionary beings in causal matter do not
form any material aggregates, as occurs in the emotional and mental worlds. The manifestations of
causal consciousness do not produce any forms but rather colour phenomena that dissolve at
12
lightning speed.
http://www.laurency.com/DVSe/ps2.pdf

Henry, you say you aspire to not being attached to beliefs and opinions, because that, you believe, amounts to freedom at the level of the mental plane. So, why all the attachment to (apparently) believing that hylozoics is "the truth"? One thing I would like to mention to you and Eram is as follows.

The history of post-medieveal philosphy has been that for three centuries all the greatest philosophers each tried to construct a "theory of everything", also known as a philosophical system. Through a gradual process of learning from the inadequacies of the attempts of all who had gone before, by the late nineteenth or early twentieth century it became clear to philosophers that no such thing as an accurate "theory of everything" is even possible. So, just on that basis I know in advance that hylozoics, or whatever else you like, will be full of serious flaws. If you want to treat it as a theory of everything, I already know in advance that you're misleading yourselves.

What I write about in posts is mostly based on direct experience. There's no belief in that, but direct and certain knowledge. I don't attach to any belief system. Either I know, or I don't know. And hopefully I'm ruthlessly honest with myself regarding all that I don't know. And I do happen to know as fact, from much experience over most of my life, that what hylozoics says about the formless is altogether a false belief -- no doubt based on inadequacy of direct relevant experience. The truth doesn't need to be defended.

Sri Aurobindo
Writings in Bengali
The Vision of the World Spirit

The Form and The Formless
The worshippers of the formless Brahman without qualities dismiss any statement about its qualities and form as being only metaphors and similes. The worshippers of the formless Brahman with qualities deny its lack of attributes by explaining the Shastras in a different way and dismiss any statement about its form as being only metaphors and similes. The worshippers of the Brahman with form and attributes are up in arms against both of them. We hold all the three views to be narrow, incomplete and born of ignorance. For, those who have realised the formless Brahman and the Brahman with form, how can they hold one view to be true and discard the other as being false and imaginary, and thus abrogate the ultimate evidence of knowledge and confine the infinite. Brahman within the finite? It is true that if we deny the formlessness and the lack of attributes of the Brahman we belittle God. But it is equally true that if we deny the qualities and the form of the Brahman we belittle Him again. God is the Master, the Creator and the Lord. He cannot be tied down to any form; as He is not limited by His form, so also He is not limited by His formlessness. God is all-powerful. If we feign to catch Him in the net of the laws of the physical Nature or of Time and Space and then tell Him, “Though you are infinite, we shall not allow you to be finite, try as you may, you will not succeed, you are bound with our irrefutable logic and arguments like Ferdinand with Prospero's magic.” What could be more ludicrous, impertinent or ignorant? God is bound neither by His form nor by His formlessness; He reveals Himself in a form to the seeker. God is there in His fullness in that form, yet at the same time pervades the whole universe. For God is beyond time and space, unattainable by any argument; time and space are His toys. He is playing with all beings caught in his net of time and space. But we shall never be able to catch Him in that net. Every time we try to achieve this impossibility with logic and philosophical argument, the Jester eludes the net and stands smiling in front of us, behind us, near us and far from us, spreads out his World Form, and the Form beyond the universe, defeating the intellect. He who says, “I know Him,” knows nothing. He who says, “I know Him yet I do not know Him,” has true knowledge.
[…]

Sri Aurbindo most certainly did not deny here that the higher planes are formless in nature. Let's look more carefully at what he's saying. He's saying that Brahman (which effectively means the same here as the Divine Mind) -- which he elsewhere makes clear is in its essence not only formless but universal and omnipresent -- can descend into worlds of form, and then it does indeed have a form. This happens, for instance, when a Divine Being incarnates in human form. I happen to have had direct one-to-one conversations and encounters with a few of the greatest Gods who did incarnate, such as Shiva and Gaia. Those have been amazingly vivid and detailed and unforgettable experiences, and did not involve any belief, or anything else indirect. Have I not expended considerable energy in this thread tirelessly explaining that true spirituality begins with descension? I don't disagree with that quote from Aurobindo at all. But let's be clear on what he does and doesn't mean to say there.

soleil

12th December 2013, 21:51

thanks highwhistler. i know that i said it was a dream, (what is a dream anyway?) anyways, if youve read throughout this thread, TH usually says we are obe when we dream. and he gives great interpretations of them, that help my growth. which is why this thread is so wonderful, and not really about the obe itself. its about it all.

Kalamos

13th December 2013, 00:21

..........

TraineeHuman

13th December 2013, 01:30

before i forget...ive been on and off about whether i should be asking about this. as im slowly losing the exact memory.
in a dream last weekend, i came across a being, that was blue like tourquoise etheric, even though i could even see clothes and face and shape. it was obviously non physical to me, although i had never seen this type of "person" before, ever, anywhere. as soon as i saw this being, i realized i was the only one who could! i was exclaiming, "hi ghost!" and "cant you see them?" then, the blue etheric looking person/being started to come towards me; and i got spooked, so i was saying "no no dont come here" but it/they( may have been 2) appeared beside me as twolittle light like orbs, that i blew away from me as though i was blowing out a candle. they didnt blow out, they just blew away. i didnt intend to be afraid, or shut them out. i just felt unprepared to interact up close.

was this obe or a dream? is this a typical look, of a being in astral?

Beyond the physical, all beings, imcluding animals and ETs, often look like just another "being". Based on my own experience, I'd say you met with an ET (two ETs?) in the astral. There is a friendly, gentle, I believe fully benevolent ET race that look the beautiful bright light blue/turquoise color humanoid shape that it sounds like you're describing. If so, and you meet them again, I suggest just chill out and let them show you whatever they're willing to show you. You say nobody else could see them, but that would probably be because there are different levels/planes/worlds in the astral, and one will see only the beings on one's own plane.

TraineeHuman

13th December 2013, 02:59

[W]hen we really 'open our mind' and as we go about looking for better answers and ideas, which is the very impulse of our Spirit to do (to KNOW), then we fight against that programing. We fight against our Mental Self, our Mental Body... It takes the effort of True Will and Real/Free THINKING to break free from the chains that bind our Mind.

Then there are pitfalls, as one Ideology or Paradigm might free us from an older, outdated, less expansive one, only to now bind us in a new Meme or Ideology; a higher Place in the Mental World, but still bound to that World.

For instance, Buddhism might free one from Dogmatic Christianity, but then you are bound to the Mental Ideas of Buddhism, and on an intellectual level at first (as no one is Enlightened just by considering Buddhism). The same thing, a philosophy of scientific materialism might free you from Religious Mental complexes.

So the key is to identify this process; to objectify the different functions of your lower bodies as they pertain to your thinking, whether reactive/subjective, or proactive/objective.

This is how I personally see Mindfulness.

What I continue to struggle to do, and it is freeing and yet an awfully scary place to be, is to BELIEVE NOTHING, but just observe things and your reaction to things.

It is difficult to have no belief, and maybe impossible (I might be fooling myself), but as it is, this is how we discover the underlying World View of our Spirit, perhaps how discover The Knowledge of Reality.

So when I get emotional, I immediately look for the cause. Easy.

When I consider a new paradigm or Idea, I realize that I'm comparing it to something else (in my Mind), so I step back. Not so easy.

The way I would put it is, I find that most individuals seriously working to liberate themselves will have rather quickly freed the mental part of themselves at least to the extent that it becomes convinced of the need to work deeply on the inner level, and in cooperation with the HM and Higher Forces.

But very often I find it's on the emotional plane -- in the emotions -- that such individuals are held back. This emotional "self" has not agreed to the evolution the individual has mentally convinced themselves about working towards.

These emotions need not just be pure emotions such as anger or fear. Often they will contain a mental part, but still be emotions. Some examples: greed, addiction to power, narcissism, obsession, and possessiveness, to name just a few. These are what slow most people down. One has to find a way to keep them on the periphery and superficial. One needs to become more strongly conscious of dwelling more deeply inward, calm and at ease there. Then the outer emotions can more easily fall away -- if one faces them. I guess all the stuff you said about mindfulness amounts to a detailed version of much the same as what I'm saying here.

There is actually also a different kind of blockage on the mental level that it's also very important to overcome. This is made up of very negative self-judgments everyone has made at the time of their life review just after their most recent lifetime. These judgments are put into oneself at the time of birth. Often a person is tougher in their judgment of themselves than anyone else is. The trouble with these judgments is that they are lodged in the subconscious. Most people (perhaps secretly) simply don't like themselves, and feel unlucky in life. That's largely because the person is carrying over those judgments from the end of their previous lifetime. The best way to get rid of such self-judgments seems to be through calmly putting oneself into a higher state and yet at the same time being willing to let rip with feeling whatever negative emotions are sitting in your belly.

The other, longer-term way to specifically help free yourself of those negative judgments is by cultivating genuine self-esteem. This means consciously liking yourself or thanking or congratulating yourself more, accepting yourself more, warts and all, forgiving yourself more without neglecting any of your responsibility.

We should appreciate that the body itself, strictly speaking, isn't just physical. It too has a certain level of separate consciousness. To some extent it's able to disobey the mind. The negative emotions mentioned earlier tend to "anchor" themselves to areas of the body, in what is really a form of attachment.

Joy_P

13th December 2013, 15:24

TraineeHuman

13th December 2013, 20:04

Friends -- thank you for all the contributions to this most fascinating topic.

You are invited to download this essay that I wrote several years ago:

Introduction to the OBE (http://www.soulconnection.net/downloads/OBE_Intro.pdf)

If you find something interesting in it ... please share here.

Lovely ideas, Teka, expressed so nicely. I'm 100% in favor of emphasizing the wholistic view at all times, and the Oneness -- which is the glue that holds everything else together. It may not help us do our budgeting at all, but it's what keeps the Higher perspective alive in us.

Yes, the everyday world we live in as an intermeshing of the physical, astral/emotional and mental worlds, like some tightly woven tapestry. And we often notice only what's on the surface. I'm continually amazed that people are even able to say things like: "I walked through a wall, so then I knew I must be OB", because it's amazing that we're able to disentangle the physical from the other strands. And yet we learn to do that naturally.

I'd love to hear more specific details, but in non-scientific terms, from someone out there regarding how the physical world is a hologram, and what does this mean for us? Maybe HaulinBananas or someone can give us a link to something by Tom Campbell or whoever on this subject? I don't necessarily agree with Tom Campbell that the physical world must be digitally generated by some supercomputer in the sky. Long ago I did read a book by Karl Pribram called (I think) The Holographic Universe, written in the 1970s I think. Although that book was intellectually fascinating, I'm not sure it taught us anything specific about how to master the physicality hologram -- how to be in it and yet not part of it.

There's a sense in which the physical is a hologram of the Oneness. We can use meditation, astral projection, bilocation, and various psychic skills to trace back more of our ultimate origins to the Oneness. So, how does the notion of a hologram relate, for example, to our being a small copy of the Whole, even though we (think we) are only a small part? How does this relate to our capacity to be the Oneness -- free from any need to demand or desire or grasp at anything, because we already have it all?

Finefeather

13th December 2013, 20:06

I happen to have had direct one-to-one conversations and encounters with a few of the greatest Gods who did incarnate, such as Shiva and Gaia.

This statement is incorrect and without truth or reality.

The ‘God’ Shiva is a mythological figure...no such Being exists in a single form because Shiva cannot exist without Vishnu and Brahma. Shiva, the destroyer, is the (motion) aspect of the Hindu Trinity...together with Vishnu the preserver (consciousness) and Brahma the creator (matter)...just as in the Christian religion we have Father, Son and the Holy Spirit...or Spirit, Soul and Body...or Motion, Consciousness and Matter...Father, Son and Mother etc etc. Each cannot exist without the other...at any level. If we look at this from a physical point of view we will see each of these aspects depicted in the manifestation called the human Being.

These are not separate manifestations but the 3 aspects of every state in the entire manifested cosmos.

Objective Consciousness...in any plane, or dimension, or state, or world is only possible because of the manifestation of objectivity...by the 3 aspects of the trinity...in some permutation or aggregate...there are 7 such levels each having 7 sub levels making a total of 49 levels of different aggregates of motion, consciousness and matter.

The fact that we cannot perceive such objectivity, in higher realms, is only due to our lack of objective consciousness in that level of consciousness...a common downfall in Indian philosophy and most of the so called gurus, who so many follow, and accept as the highest source of knowledge and attainment.

What is perceived by most is merely subjective consciousness...and the perception is thus dependent on the state of the perceiver...this is commonly known as the great illusion...because the mind can only perceive what it is capable of. Objective consciousness in all the subtle worlds beyond the physical is attained through the growth and evolution of consciousness.

“Maya”, or the “great illusion”, means that the individual without esoteric knowledge inevitably takes the physical world, then the emotional world, and later the mental world, accordingly, as his envelopes of incarnation (emotional, mental) dissolve, to be the only existing reality. This should be a clue to the more advanced esoteric student that the level reached by the average guru is not very high...especially when many of us still think that Nirvana is some great state of enlightenment when all it represents is Causal Consciousness or what some incorrectly call their Higher Self...a non existent entity which some have the impression they own. We are Monads...Individual primordial atoms...evolving our consciousness to become a 'Higher Self'...we are not Higher Selves yet!

Those who have not attained objective consciousness in higher worlds, like the emotional or mental, will create their own emotional illusions and mental fictions such as the example depicted in the above statement. It is a sure sign of the ego at work.

Take care
Ray

Highwhistler

14th December 2013, 07:50

I happen to have had direct one-to-one conversations and encounters with a few of the greatest Gods who did incarnate, such as Shiva and Gaia.

This statement is incorrect and without truth or reality.

... It is a sure sign of the ego at work.

Ray

If the Multiverse is infinite, then the statement above can be correct, true and real.

On the other hand, if the Multiverse is not infinite, then Finefeather may be right.

But, what the heck? What if Traineehuman actually had "direct one-to-one conversations and encounters with a few of the greatest Gods who did incarnate, such as Shiva and Gaia"?

It wouldn't get me upset. I'd think it's terrific!

What if Shiva, Gaia, Jesus, Whosits, or who ever else in the whole Multiverse decides to break the rules just a little bit, and comes to Traineehuman to have a little conversation? ... well ... why not? Good for both of them.

What if some of the ancient scripts, holy books, Masters, Teachers, gurus, saints, and brilliant people who express incredible ideas so eloquently (like yourself) ... what if they have some of it wrong? In fact ... I expect that's the case.

I would just shrug my shoulders and say "OK."

Final question: What if a person who is pointing at another person and saying that his ego is at work ... what if that person was actually projecting? That is, his ego was at work and he didn't realize what was going on, and it made him feel smart and powerful to point away from himself and call someone else egotistical.

That sort of think happens all the time.

I've done it myself. When I realized that I was projecting, I felt like a fool and I apologized to the person that I insulted.

24140
Click to Enlarge.

Kalamos

14th December 2013, 09:24

..........

TraineeHuman

14th December 2013, 11:49

It sounds like both Joy_P and sway may have been experiencing the same variety of astral helpers/healers/guides -- ones who, as I say, I suspect are from a certain ET race. There are many different kinds of such beings.

There's one type that's particularly interesting, and significant. Astral projectors may at some point notice that at least sometimes when they project they are not alone. Rather, they may come to notice, there's a subtle benevolent being there with them, gently guiding their journey. They may also nortice or conclude that this being is not their HM -- not that it's important for everyone to "identify" their HM as an individual being (supposedly), rather than as certain Higher Forces to which they have some kind of special connection.

Such very subtle guidance will in fact often be coming from one or more guardian angels. As these come from a similar level of existence to the HM, it may be very hard to "tune in" to them, except through intuitions (or maybe through synchronicities or -- yes -- certain voices in your head). In this way we have help and guidance/advice available to us not only from our HM but from our GAs also. But we need to develop the skill of listening at that somewhat rarified and subtle level. Some people -- and presumably most people --, when they die, discover that a GA whom they had vaguely considered to be an inner part of themselves actually wasn't part of them.

Actually, as far as I know GAs invariably assist whenever a person is successfully projecting OB, and also even when they're unsuccessfully attempting to. I wonder if maybe that's one thing that subconsciously attracts some people to OB projection -- the feeling of actively experiencing OB company.

I consider it's interesting how all the Schillers and the Goethes and the Keatses and the Wordsworths said that their creations came via the intuitions of their "angel" (or their "daemon", which a few centuries ago meant "angel" in a good sense). On the other hand we have all the channelers. In reality it's often very hard to hear or grok what GAs or the HM is saying, partly because most of the time they don't "talk" in words. And yet the channelers claim to be getting "truth" word for word, even arranged into grammatical sentences. Doesn't add up, I suggest.

There are guides and there are "guides". Any discarnate being or entity, at any level, is capable of attempting to guide you. Unfortunately, many such beings may be too heavy with ego to be able to see clearly. Some may have the best intentions, but their "help" may often be counterproductive. Some may even be so possessed by their ego that they deliberately attempt to misguide you.

The usual model of how a channeler does their deed is that they supposedly go temporarily unconscious and allow the channeled being to take over their physical body. Unfortunately, I can assure you that any channeler who works in that way is of necessity a fraud. Any truly High being will always have way too much respect for the "vessel" of their messages to do anything but allow that "vessel" to consciously hear their message, and to retain conscious control of their physical body.

Highwhistler

14th December 2013, 12:52

The problem is that many people have conversations in the higher worlds with many gods and the like. We have to question whether these beings are the original consciousness or a representation based in our mind or a 'being' impersonating other beings.

Buddha said something like, "If you meet me on the path, kill me."

Hey may have meant, slay or subdue that impression, as it is not the Real Buddha (but a projection, illusion)

Ray and TH both explore higher worlds, so I pay equal attention to their experiences and knowledge.

Amen Calamus. Thank you.

One could say that to an Observer, the entire physical universe is empty and an illusion. After all, we think that the trees, people and everything in the physical world is "out there" ... but all our lives we've actually just been looking, hearing and sensing the physical world, from inside ourselves.

For instance, when you are looking at a tree in your yard ... what is actually happening is that the light coming from the tree has traveled to your eye ... it has entered your eye and the gone into your brain, and you are literally looking at an image or movie of the tree that is being projected inside yourself.

Years ago I became fascinated with this understanding when I was using a telescope and looking for the Andromeda Galaxy. Now most people think that through a telescope, your vision is going way out into space to see distant objects. But what's really happening is the light from stars and galaxies have traveled for thousands and millions of years, and tiny bits of their light has fallen on the front lens of the telescope, which sends the light down the tube and into the eye piece. But the light does not stop there, as the observer bends over the eye piece and looks at it, the light of stars and galaxies enters through her eyes and is projected back into the theater of her brain. And so the person is actually and truthfully looking at the stars and galaxies that are being reflected inside herself.

And so if you extrapolate this knowledge and understanding to the entire physical universe ... you will realize that you have been seeing, feeling, hearing and interacting with your family, loved ones, pets, wildlife, gardens, ecosystems, clouds, rivers of stars ... all of it, every bit of it, every second of your life, from inside yourself.

24141
Click to Enlarge.

Then a meditator, upon realizing that the physical universe that she has always known, throughout her entire life -- has just been a projection, a beautiful unfolding reflection WITHIN herself.

Lost in contemplation, she asks "What are those images and movies inside myself, that I am seeing and feeling, and that I am a part of ... what are the raw materials that compose those images?" That is: what are those inner pictures and movies of the so-called "outside world" made of?

Off the top of her head she makes a list:
light
light is shaped into forms
sound
meaning
energy
consciousness
emotion
space
seen and experienced in a theater of present time
emptiness
me, the observer
She notes that there probably are other raw materials that make up the inner pictures and movies ... but that's all that comes to mind in this moment.

The meditator then notices and becomes aware that all thoughts, feelings, dreams, memories, inner visions, imaginative movies and psychic pulsations -- all are made of the same raw materials of consciousness (that reflections of the "outside world" are made of) ... and the outside and inside worlds are being seen in the same inner theater.

Then she asks: "What pictures, images and inner movies are real? ... and what are not?" ... She replies to herself "Every observer can figure that out for herself, if she cares to do so ... or she can leave it open to be answered in the future when more understanding and knowledge from first-hand experiences come our way."

She also notices that memories, thoughts and imagination are made of the same raw materials of consciousness ... and that they are often hybrids of one another. That is: parts of memories are mixed in with imagination, dreams and so on ... and she cannot, exactly, categorize them into nice little boxes with pretty little explanations.

She realizes that Jesus, Buddha and all the saints, sinners and everyone in between ... they all, in a very real sense ... have just been stories and energies passed along by others, that she has been interacting with, inside her self.

Sometimes images of the Buddha emerge from the depths of inner space ... they live for a while ... and then they slip back into the infinite depths of inner cosmic wonder.

But now she does not ask if that version of the Buddha is real or not ... she does not grasp it at all ... she just lets it be. She allows it to exist in infinite forms ... coming and going freely ... but always returning to the vast inner fields of silence, space and emptiness.

Joy_P

14th December 2013, 13:59

Thank you, TH, for your comments. I love this thread. I'm slowly reading every post from the beginning. There is so much information.

I was very interested in your comments about the blue humanoid. I have received a lot of instruction from other beings in the astral realms. I wish I were a better student! Still learning after all these years. Thank you again, TH!

Finefeather

14th December 2013, 18:34

Hi Dear Highwhistler
Well you sure are a ‘what if’ person now aren't you? :)

If the Multiverse is infinite, then the statement above can be correct, true and real.

On the other hand, if the Multiverse is not infinite, then Finefeather may be right.
Well, first...you are asserting that there is such a thing called the Multiverse which, according to many, is a hypothetical set of infinite or finite possible universes. I like your mind, because I also think that that is true, but with just one exception. I think the name is incorrect and should be termed, Muliple Cosmos’s. The word Cosmos was first used instead, of Universe, by Pythagoras because it is an ordered version of a Universe...there is order in the Cosmos. Just a little trivia :)

Infinity, on the other hand, is impossible to prove by any means because it is an abstract concept describing something without any limit...endless. I wonder who actually invented this word because it means nothing...yet it means so much :)... and practically it does not exist because no one can prove it and reach it...even the ‘Gods’? Even when calculations end up as infinity it tells us nothing...everyone is still in the dark after getting the answer...despite the attempt to resolve the equation and enlighten us.

In esoterics the term absolute is used to signify a manifested Cosmos and it has bounderies which we, with our limited minds, cannot grasp.

But, what the heck? What if Traineehuman actually had "direct one-to-one conversations and encounters with a few of the greatest Gods who did incarnate, such as Shiva and Gaia"?

It wouldn't get me upset. I'd think it's terrific!

What if Shiva, Gaia, Jesus, Whosits, or who ever else in the whole Multiverse decides to break the rules just a little bit, and comes to Traineehuman to have a little conversation? ... well ... why not? Good for both of them.

What if some of the ancient scripts, holy books, Masters, Teachers, gurus, saints, and brilliant people who express incredible ideas so eloquently (like yourself) ... what if they have some of it wrong? In fact ... I expect that's the case.

I would just shrug my shoulders and say "OK."
I am delighted to read of your nonchalant attitude towards others. When reading this I was wondering at what point you might take some interest in the person, or subject, you might be considering...so let me add one more ‘what if’ to your list for possible consideration:

What if there is a reality out there, that can explain the phenomena, which many experience, which leads them to believe, and be convinced, that what they are subjectively experiencing, is real and a fact...yet it is not the real reality but just an illusion?

I guess from your easy going attitude you might just “shrug your shoulders and say "OK.""
Or would you be interested to learn more about it?

Final question: What if a person who is pointing at another person and saying that his ego is at work ... what if that person was actually projecting? That is, his ego was at work and he didn't realize what was going on, and it made him feel smart and powerful to point away from himself and call someone else egotistical.

That sort of think happens all the time.

This is really an example of an old and common, emotionally devised, form of twisting the situation around to take the focus off a point of contention.

When does criticism become constructive to you? Never? Are you the type of person who cannot handle criticism because it might just wake you up one day? Or are you frightened that criticism might threaten your belief system?

Do not seek praise. Seek criticism. [..] If, instead of seeking approval, you ask, ‘What’s wrong with it? How can I make it better?’, you are more likely to get a truthful, critical answer.

Although receiving compliments is far more satisfying in a superficial kind of way, I learned to value criticism more. Most of the times, it improves my work and when I don’t agree, I can always reject it.

Finally...my mind is far from consciously choosing to criticize and be nasty to any human. When I notice a statement, in this forum, which I have a right to respond to, which I might be able to shed some light on, I do. In this post I spent the majority of time giving my idea and knowledge of why this statement is incorrect, untrue and not real. You can choose to accept it or not. I made no claim to it’s authenticity or correctness...other than that it is knowledge which I have gained from my experiences on this earth and beyond. I have realized many years ago just how little I know...and how far we are from our goal because of ignorance.

As far as TraineeHuman is concerned...I am aware of his large contribution to some peoples growth and I respect that and wish him well. My love for him is not, and will never be tainted by some statement which is made, possibly in the 'enthusiasm' of the moment.

I love your pictures on your posts...thanks.
Take care
Ray

Highwhistler

15th December 2013, 11:50

Buddha said something like, "If you meet me on the path, kill me."

Some people may not of done this, or know what this means, and I would like to make a contribution ...

"Slaying the Buddha" is an understanding and meditation technique that has been passed along from Buddhist to Buddhist down through the centuries. I, personally, do not think that Buddha actually ever said those words (in his native language of course), but the idea was conceived by Buddhist meditation teachers several centuries after Buddha passed away, and then passed along to everyone ever since.

The "slaying the Buddha" technique is widely accepted to be connected to great Buddhist meditation teachers, monks and Lamas, and so many meditators think: "Well, of course it's true, correct, good, and a very advanced technique."

I personally, have used the technique every day for over 40 years. But in my opinion, it is just a run-of-the-mill technique and should be used wisely ... being guided by you, through you own personal intuition and from your own direct, everyday, ordinary, first-hand, continual, inner experiences. Please take the technique out for a test drive and see what it's like.

The technique

During meditation, here is what "slaying the Buddha" entails (this is just one example, and it can take an infinite number of forms):

The meditator begins meditation and turns her attention from the so-called "outer world" to the inner universes. She becomes peaceful and quiets her body-mind-emotional complex. Her relaxed presence uses the tool of attention, to be completely focused in the inner theater.

The "inner theater" is composed of her non-physical presence as the observer, and an infinite space of emptiness, silence and peace that the presence is aware of, is a part of, and lives in. The space of emptiness, silence and peace is like the home for who and what she is -- the awake presence. In this theater, in the empty areas all around ... stuff begins appearing: inner content like thoughts, feelings, dreams, imaginative movies, lights, sounds, psychic pulsations and so on ...

As she -- the fully awake, alert presence -- is chilling out in the silence of the inner theater -- fully focused, absolutely relaxed -- she starts noticing thoughts, feelings, dreams, imaginative movies, memories and psychic phenomena rising out of the emptiness. Each stream of thoughts and movies live for a while ... and then each of them disappear back into the vast field of silence and emptiness, within. It's like each thought and memory has its own life cycle in the field of her awareness. Each thought can also be recalled out of the depths of inner silence, just by her wanting it to appear before her presence, so that she may experience it again, and again, and again ...

The meditator simply allows all the inner content to come and go, come and go, come and go, without becoming involved with any of it. "Becoming involved" in this case means attaching her attention, emotions, and/or subtle energies to certain thoughts and movies that arise from the inner stillness ... because when she does, those thoughts and movies will live on, and on, and on ... as attention, energies and emotions are powerful creative fuels that run the rich content of the inner worlds that she, the meditator, the Presence ... is viewing.

One of the most powerful techniques for the meditator is the skill of letting go. "Letting go" is an art and a science. She learns how to let inner content rise up out of the stillness on its own, live for a while, and then naturally disappear ... without her giving the thoughts, memories, psychic stuff and imaginative movies any of her extra attention, her energies, and certainly not her emotions.

She just allows the inner content have a normal life span ... to come and go like clouds in the sky. Just as she is not attached to pushing a cloud this way or that ... all the inner content is treated in the same way. She lets it all go.

OK now: some of the imagery and movies that appear in her inner world are of the magnificent, beautiful and wise Buddha! They appear because she loves Buddhist teachings, philosophy, techniques, culture, ideas, dominant feelings and world views ... and all this stuff that have been passed along to her from others. She is tuned-into the same energetic frequencies as Buddhism, and so the collective Buddhist community is naturally pulsing with Buddhist imagery-teachings-feelings that are telepathically floating to Buddhist everywhere, for them to share and experience in their minds and hearts.

"Slaying the Buddha" is a symbolic term, of course, as when imagery of the Buddha appears in her inner worlds ... she, with no emotion, just says to it "so what?" She doesn't care at all. In this meditation technique, images of the Buddha, Jesus, or whoever appears before the inner gaze of her Presence ... they are the same value as anything else that appears during meditation. And so she uses her highly focused skill of letting go to simply keep her fully awake presence sitting back in the emptiness ... and allow the imagery of the Buddha, or saints, or holy anything and everything to just come and go normally. She does not reach out with her attention and grab the so-called sacred images with her attention or emotions ... she just lets them disappear in the same manner as every other thought. She does not push against the inner material to make it go away ... and she does not attempt to draw it to her, grasp it, or make it live longer. She just lets it all go.

My experience and POV

If you are a person like me, who's been meditating hours a day for over 40 years ... well, you've literally "slayed" millions upon millions of Buddha's, Jesus's, Shiva's -- whoever and whatever that rises in your fields of inner perceptions.

Again: "slaying" in this sense just means letting go and not caring at all about the Buddha and his imagery, ideas, the feelings and history connected to him. Sacred imagery and spiritual things are really no big deal to the experienced meditator who is using the "slay the Buddha" technique, as you're going to ignore all of them anyway and get back into the inner stillness where you belong.

I've not only "slayed the Buddha" during meditation for decades, but using the same symbology: I've also slayed all the meditation teachers, gurus, and spiritual-types that have passed along their meditation techniques to anyone. I've not read their books, not collected their posters, I don't have their holy beads, little statues, burned candles for them, or whatever -- I've tossed all of their favorite sayings and teachings out of my life. I've ignored them all and have gone my own inner path ... following my own continual, direct, first-hand experiences, developing my own techniques and have grown my own understandings. All the teachers and saints are certainly present, as they are part of the Multiverse. Its just in my inner being, I don't emphasize them more than, say ... a flower in the garden.

During meditation, I really couldn't care in the least about what the saints or the Dalai Lama, or Jesus, or any meditation teacher says ... even those who have suggested that "slaying the Buddha" is a good idea. I let them and their teachings go.

My main love is for the silence, stillness, peace and emptiness of the Universe, and for me, those inner elements has become a significant part of my identity.

Once you have that identity, and you can quiet your mind in less than the twinkle of an eye -- because YOU ARE THE STILLNESS -- then you can take a look at meditation teachers and their techniques with neutrality and without emotion. This has caused me to ponder if some of the great holy people down through the ages, some of the teachers that have students and followers -- I wonder if perhaps some of them were off their psychic-spiritual rockers? Maybe some of the techniques being passed along are not so great. Maybe some of them are flat-out wrong, or truly unhelpful? Maybe the "Slay the Buddha" technique that teachers have suggested is not advanced at all. Perhaps its over-emphasized, no big deal, and sometimes down-right a stupid thing to use during some meditation experience? That's certainly the case for me.

Think clearly about this: what kind of spiritual pervert suggests that you slay every time imagery of the Buddha, Jesus or whoever, appears before your awake presence in the inner Universe? In my opinion -- its insane.

I do appreciate knowing how to do the "slay the Buddha" technique, and I see how using the technique casts big influences over the inner energetic ecosystems as well as the unfolding of inner content. But for me ... it's just a technique. Learn it. Learn how to use it. But it's no big deal. Again: I've used it for decades ... but no freekin' way will I use it all the time, for everything, for every spiritual being that appears in my inner Universe.

For me ... sometimes when the Buddha or any other kind-hearted presence appears, rather than "slaying him or her" ... we merge, we share, we become entangled ... we become lost in one another. I am grateful.

The Multiverse is a big place ... and there's plenty of room for each person to use any techniques they want and to have all the inner experiences they so desire. I invite you to go exploring.
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Click to enlarge.

TraineeHuman

15th December 2013, 13:28

With wonderful passion and the most extraordinary clarity, Highwhistler has been describing what sort of terrain you discover once you get seriously into meditation. In my experience it seems to take most genuine people at most a few months of meditating an hour a day, every day, before they start having some seriously deep experiences of that same terrain, at least once or twice, if not more, even after several months. And then more and more as they continue.

As she so eloquently and simply explains, the answers to so many of your questions just become apparent once you're in that terrain. You can see the answers for yourself then. They become very obvious, most of them. The basis of meditation is allowing absolutely everything to be exactly as it is. You can find absolutely all you need to know about how to do that -- and I do mean absolutely all -- in the first fifteen minutes or so of the second of the three videos of Adyashanti's referenced in post #1396.

When a person is learning to drive, they don't study the car manual and try hard to get a good theoretical model of how the engineering and the thermodynamics of the car works. They just simply do it -- they turn the ignition key on, and off they go. Although they have an instructor at hand they can ask questions of, they ask the questions as these come up in the action of doing it.

I write posts about stuff like this because to me just to talk about the beloved is exhilirating. It's a bit like a newlywed talking about their partner. I'm sure Teka (Highwhistler) feels similarly.

I guess the kind of terrain Teka has been talking about may only become real to you once you start to get realizations, however small, coming to you in the waking state as you go about your everyday business. That's because at such a point you've changed who/what you are. For example, when you relax you no longer do it the same way as the average non-meditator, but you do it in an aware way, with the "inner" now effortlessly switched on.

If I may take the liberty of trying to echo part of what Teka has recently been saying: consciousness must have the power and the opportunity to unfold completely. Its true nature is to be perfectly aware, and first and foremost it's aware of itself, rather as your eyes can't help seeing part of the nose on your face wherever they may look. Once it's aware of itself it sees directly that everything supposedly "out there" isn't "out there" at all, in reality, in fact. Meditation involves developing your consciousness to make it perfect -- and that's much easier to do than it may sound, though it does take time. Again, another reason to shut up and just do it.

"The ecstasy of the individual who has attained the Silence sets into motion the two births, the human self-expression and the divine, and moves between them. " -- Rig Veda.

HaulinBananas

15th December 2013, 19:54

. . . Yes, the everyday world we live in as an intermeshing of the physical, astral/emotional and mental worlds, like some tightly woven tapestry. . . I'd love to hear more specific details, but in non-scientific terms, from someone out there regarding how the physical world is a hologram, and what does this mean for us? Maybe HaulinBananas or someone can give us a link to something by Tom Campbell or whoever on this subject? I don't necessarily agree with Tom Campbell that the physical world must be digitally generated by some supercomputer in the sky. Long ago I did read a book by Karl Pribram called (I think) The Holographic Universe, written in the 1970s I think. Although that book was intellectually fascinating, I'm not sure it taught us anything specific about how to master the physicality hologram -- how to be in it and yet not part of it.

There's a sense in which the physical is a hologram of the Oneness. We can use meditation, astral projection, bilocation, and various psychic skills to trace back more of our ultimate origins to the Oneness. So, how does the notion of a hologram relate, for example, to our being a small copy of the Whole, even though we (think we) are only a small part? How does this relate to our capacity to be the Oneness -- free from any need to demand or desire or grasp at anything, because we already have it all?

Hi TraineeHuman: Recently, for various reasons, have been lightly following your thread and see your request, but it comes at time when I am digesting a lot of information. Tom Campbells' entire trilogy finally is available as an audio book (via Audible) and I have listened to the three books, some parts twice or three times and am absorbing the information. I take breaks by going to other OBE authors or their websites or youtube videos, some of which were posted in your thread. I don't have much to offer in answer to your request, other than a suggestion to read some of the pdf forms found in Tom Campbell's website titled Gems from the Forum and this quote from his book:

(Book 2, Section 3, Chapter 40)

"OTHER DIMENSIONS - The concept of "dimension" is not as strange or difficult to understand as it first seems. Thoughts, ideas, or mental constructs that are held by AUM (in memory) define individuated existence and the dimensions (interaction boundaries) of that existence. One way to think of dimension is that it represents constraints on the allowable interaction between independent reality systems - similar to dividers in a notebook, a wall between rooms, or the glass between Petri dishes. . . .

. . . dimensional separators are often porous. To understand why, we can look at our own multi-dimensional nature. A more accurate description of space-time based humanoids is that they are individuated units of conscious awareness who constrain a portion of their consciousness to a sense-limited 3D experiential physical reality. We can, through the doorway of our subjective mind, learn to transcend the barriers of dimension. Being aware and operant in multiple dimensions is what allows the Big Picture to come into sharp focus through firsthand experience. Exploring the multidimensional properties of your consciousness enables you to examine AUM and he nature of your reality scientifically from the inside, rather than hypothetically, from the outside. Thus, you can see how important it is that you do not allow your ignorance, fear and belief to shut off this incredibly important pathway to a greater understanding. . . . " (AUM = Absolute Unbounded Manifold)

But dear TH, this answer is supplied from within a fog of thoughts. I have been a glutton for OBE information and feel like a full sponge floating in a bucket of water. Yesterday I spoke with someone who goes OBE, and received a very insightful email this morning from that same person who pointed out that I am avoiding the actual experience by spending more time trying to learn more about it. This thread, and others, have had wonderful informative and helpful posts from OBE experiencers. Thus, I thank you for your acknowledgement of my existence, which makes me feel validated in some strange way, and offer up this weak response to your question . . . done more to politely respect your request, but with less to offer than most on this thread. I am dog paddling in place, surrounded by skilled swimmers.

Highwhistler

15th December 2013, 22:29

Hi Dear Highwhistler
Well you sure are a ‘what if’ person now aren't you? :)

If the Multiverse is infinite, then the statement above can be correct, true and real.

On the other hand, if the Multiverse is not infinite, then Finefeather may be right.
Well, first...you are asserting that there is such a thing called the Multiverse which, according to many, is a hypothetical set of infinite or finite possible universes. I like your mind, because I also think that that is true, but with just one exception. I think the name is incorrect and should be termed, Muliple Cosmos’s. The word Cosmos was first used instead, of Universe, by Pythagoras because it is an ordered version of a Universe...there is order in the Cosmos. Just a little trivia :)

Infinity, on the other hand, is impossible to prove by any means because it is an abstract concept describing something without any limit...endless. I wonder who actually invented this word because it means nothing...yet it means so much :)... and practically it does not exist because no one can prove it and reach it...even the ‘Gods’? Even when calculations end up as infinity it tells us nothing...everyone is still in the dark after getting the answer...despite the attempt to resolve the equation and enlighten us.

In esoterics the term absolute is used to signify a manifested Cosmos and it has bounderies which we, with our limited minds, cannot grasp.

But, what the heck? What if Traineehuman actually had "direct one-to-one conversations and encounters with a few of the greatest Gods who did incarnate, such as Shiva and Gaia"?

It wouldn't get me upset. I'd think it's terrific!

What if Shiva, Gaia, Jesus, Whosits, or who ever else in the whole Multiverse decides to break the rules just a little bit, and comes to Traineehuman to have a little conversation? ... well ... why not? Good for both of them.

What if some of the ancient scripts, holy books, Masters, Teachers, gurus, saints, and brilliant people who express incredible ideas so eloquently (like yourself) ... what if they have some of it wrong? In fact ... I expect that's the case.

I would just shrug my shoulders and say "OK."
I am delighted to read of your nonchalant attitude towards others. When reading this I was wondering at what point you might take some interest in the person, or subject, you might be considering...so let me add one more ‘what if’ to your list for possible consideration:

What if there is a reality out there, that can explain the phenomena, which many experience, which leads them to believe, and be convinced, that what they are subjectively experiencing, is real and a fact...yet it is not the real reality but just an illusion?

I guess from your easy going attitude you might just “shrug your shoulders and say "OK.""
Or would you be interested to learn more about it?

Final question: What if a person who is pointing at another person and saying that his ego is at work ... what if that person was actually projecting? That is, his ego was at work and he didn't realize what was going on, and it made him feel smart and powerful to point away from himself and call someone else egotistical.

That sort of think happens all the time.

This is really an example of an old and common, emotionally devised, form of twisting the situation around to take the focus off a point of contention.

When does criticism become constructive to you? Never? Are you the type of person who cannot handle criticism because it might just wake you up one day? Or are you frightened that criticism might threaten your belief system?

Do not seek praise. Seek criticism. [..] If, instead of seeking approval, you ask, ‘What’s wrong with it? How can I make it better?’, you are more likely to get a truthful, critical answer.
Although receiving compliments is far more satisfying in a superficial kind of way, I learned to value criticism more. Most of the times, it improves my work and when I don’t agree, I can always reject it.Finally...my mind is far from consciously choosing to criticize and be nasty to any human. When I notice a statement, in this forum, which I have a right to respond to, which I might be able to shed some light on, I do. In this post I spent the majority of time giving my idea and knowledge of why this statement is incorrect, untrue and not real. You can choose to accept it or not. I made no claim to it’s authenticity or correctness...other than that it is knowledge which I have gained from my experiences on this earth and beyond. I have realized many years ago just how little I know...and how far we are from our goal because of ignorance.

As far as TraineeHuman is concerned...I am aware of his large contribution to some peoples growth and I respect that and wish him well. My love for him is not, and will never be tainted by some statement which is made, possibly in the 'enthusiasm' of the moment.

I love your pictures on your posts...thanks.
Take care
Ray

Wow! Thanks Ray. I really appreciate your messages ... and also that the concepts that you express are so clear and detailed. Your points of view are equal to mine ... and maybe even more correct than my angles of vision. And so again: thanks for sharing.

I started reading your messages to my partner and she enjoyed them so much, we started reading them out loud to each other and enjoyed that time together.

Both of us took a long time to digested and assimilated your words and good ideas. She asked me to say "thank you" for sharing your personal insights with us.

In peace & with blessings ...

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Personal Inner Holograms > symbolic art by Highwhistler.

Eram

16th December 2013, 09:51

Henry, you say you aspire to not being attached to beliefs and opinions, because that, you believe, amounts to freedom at the level of the mental plane. So, why all the attachment to (apparently) believing that hylozoics is "the truth"? One thing I would like to mention to you and Eram is as follows.

The history of post-medieveal philosphy has been that for three centuries all the greatest philosophers each tried to construct a "theory of everything", also known as a philosophical system. Through a gradual process of learning from the inadequacies of the attempts of all who had gone before, by the late nineteenth or early twentieth century it became clear to philosophers that no such thing as an accurate "theory of everything" is even possible. So, just on that basis I know in advance that hylozoics, or whatever else you like, will be full of serious flaws. If you want to treat it as a theory of everything, I already know in advance that you're misleading yourselves.

What I write about in posts is mostly based on direct experience. There's no belief in that, but direct and certain knowledge. I don't attach to any belief system. Either I know, or I don't know. And hopefully I'm ruthlessly honest with myself regarding all that I don't know. And I do happen to know as fact, from much experience over most of my life, that what hylozoics says about the formless is altogether a false belief -- no doubt based on inadequacy of direct relevant experience. The truth doesn't need to be defended.

Hi TH,

Just for the record, so there are no misunderstandings about this:
Hylozoics is not a philosophy and it even claims that philosophy will never be able to construct a clear world or cosmic view that is in touch with reality.
It claims that it is a form of esoterics that has been taught by Pythagoras, who was a evolved being when he incarnated here to teach his knowledge in a secret knowledge order to personally picked initiates.
This is the way that knowledge about reality has been shared through the ages since the fall of Altantis according to Laurency. Secret knowledge orders where only people with a certain level of consciousness and responsibility could participate.

The knowledge comes from a higher plane of being and understanding, directly accessed by the incarnated being (Pythagoras in this case) and is shared with the initiates.
Secret because certain parts of this knowledge (especially the knowledge that grants access to magic/manipulation of reality) have been abused in both Lemuria and Atlantis and lead to the destruction of these societies.

The esoterics claim to paint a correct view to reality and one can use this view to develop ones self, but one has to find proof for the claims in esoterics every step of the way.
No blind belief here, but merely a working hypotheses which can act as a guide to understanding and growth in consciousness.
It's approach is one of personal experience above all, just as you advocate, so there is no difference there :).

[W]hen we really 'open our mind' and as we go about looking for better answers and ideas, which is the very impulse of our Spirit to do (to KNOW), then we fight against that programing. We fight against our Mental Self, our Mental Body... It takes the effort of True Will and Real/Free THINKING to break free from the chains that bind our Mind.

Then there are pitfalls, as one Ideology or Paradigm might free us from an older, outdated, less expansive one, only to now bind us in a new Meme or Ideology; a higher Place in the Mental World, but still bound to that World.

For instance, Buddhism might free one from Dogmatic Christianity, but then you are bound to the Mental Ideas of Buddhism, and on an intellectual level at first (as no one is Enlightened just by considering Buddhism). The same thing, a philosophy of scientific materialism might free you from Religious Mental complexes.

So the key is to identify this process; to objectify the different functions of your lower bodies as they pertain to your thinking, whether reactive/subjective, or proactive/objective.

This is how I personally see Mindfulness.

What I continue to struggle to do, and it is freeing and yet an awfully scary place to be, is to BELIEVE NOTHING, but just observe things and your reaction to things.

It is difficult to have no belief, and maybe impossible (I might be fooling myself), but as it is, this is how we discover the underlying World View of our Spirit, perhaps how discover The Knowledge of Reality.

So when I get emotional, I immediately look for the cause. Easy.

When I consider a new paradigm or Idea, I realize that I'm comparing it to something else (in my Mind), so I step back. Not so easy.

The way I would put it is, I find that most individuals seriously working to liberate themselves will have rather quickly freed the mental part of themselves at least to the extent that it becomes convinced of the need to work deeply on the inner level, and in cooperation with the HM and Higher Forces.

But very often I find it's on the emotional plane -- in the emotions -- that such individuals are held back. This emotional "self" has not agreed to the evolution the individual has mentally convinced themselves about working towards.

These emotions need not just be pure emotions such as anger or fear. Often they will contain a mental part, but still be emotions. Some examples: greed, addiction to power, narcissism, obsession, and possessiveness, to name just a few. These are what slow most people down. One has to find a way to keep them on the periphery and superficial. One needs to become more strongly conscious of dwelling more deeply inward, calm and at ease there. Then the outer emotions can more easily fall away -- if one faces them. I guess all the stuff you said about mindfulness amounts to a detailed version of much the same as what I'm saying here.

There is actually also a different kind of blockage on the mental level that it's also very important to overcome. This is made up of very negative self-judgments everyone has made at the time of their life review just after their most recent lifetime. These judgments are put into oneself at the time of birth. Often a person is tougher in their judgment of themselves than anyone else is. The trouble with these judgments is that they are lodged in the subconscious. Most people (perhaps secretly) simply don't like themselves, and feel unlucky in life. That's largely because the person is carrying over those judgments from the end of their previous lifetime. The best way to get rid of such self-judgments seems to be through calmly putting oneself into a higher state and yet at the same time being willing to let rip with feeling whatever negative emotions are sitting in your belly.

The other, longer-term way to specifically help free yourself of those negative judgments is by cultivating genuine self-esteem. This means consciously liking yourself or thanking or congratulating yourself more, accepting yourself more, warts and all, forgiving yourself more without neglecting any of your responsibility.

We should appreciate that the body itself, strictly speaking, isn't just physical. It too has a certain level of separate consciousness. To some extent it's able to disobey the mind. The negative emotions mentioned earlier tend to "anchor" themselves to areas of the body, in what is really a form of attachment.

We have had some communication about these issues for the last year, both in this thread and through PM's TH and I have recently had an experience that I'd like to share here.

Both my girlfriend and me have done a session with iboga (http://www.iboga.co.za/) some time back.
For the ones that don't know about iboga:
It is the bark of a tree that lives in Africa and for some time now people in the west use it for a variety of reasons.
Mostly to end addiction to heroine or other drug like that, since it gets rid of any signs of withdrawal, so people can stop with drugs and have no more cravings for it.
They also call it the reset button, since many people report to feel like they did as in their teens again afterwards.
Also, it is said to cram 20 years of psychotherapy into one session and this is the reason why we both felt drawn to it.

Just so everyone is clear on this:
Iboga is no joke.
It is heavy for the liver and the heart and the experience itself is also not to be underestimated because while in this altered state of consciousness, one is forced to face all self judgments, grief that one has stored in the unconsciousness. Also many trauma's from the past, especially from early on in age are addressed there.
it is a though ride and one has to be able to stomach it (for me, it was almost to much to bare :)).
So, there is no risk to getting addicted to it.

How I experienced it was that in this altered state of awareness, the conscious and the unconscious part of me started to communicate freely.
I could focus my intent on certain issues that I wanted to deal with, and the unconscious part of me responded with motion pictures and impressions/feelings that were of concern in regards to that topic. It did so until I found a new understanding (more in line with reality).
Also, whenever I took a little break, it started to bring issues to the table on it's self.... pointing out certain trauma's that I wasn't even aware of.
Looking back now, I'm also quite sure that lots of inherited family issues got dealt with, without being aware of it.

The reason why I felt like bringing it to the conversation here is that it brought me in contact with my self judgments (relentlessly) and ever since, I feel that much of it is resolved.
I agree that underneath, many people are their hardest critics and I have been able to get a taste of it :).
Afterwards, in the last few weeks, I have been able to access these self judgments on a more regular bases. Sometimes, I focus on them ans put them on like one would a coat. Just experiencing it, becoming more aware of it.

The whole experience changed me more then I ever expected and still to this day, I am figuring out how and what exactly.
It is a bit like I have a whole new bunch of settings and features and I'm still learning how to access and to operate them.
For instance:

I have always been pretty lazy (subjective judgment) and now, I can put on my cloths in the morning, drink a cup of tea and start working at the renovation of our house for the whole day, for weeks on end now. I enjoy the whole day that I am working and even have to hit the breaks every now and then to avoid exhaustion.
I am much more confident about myself, but I'm still working out this if some sort of overconfidence or that I just resolved certain issues in regards to this subject.
Playing computer games have always had an attraction to me to the point that I had to restrict myself in order to have enough time for everyday life. Now, I couldn't care less about it. No attraction what so ever.
A lot of PTSD symptoms seem to have disappeared. (we talked about these through PM before). My family couldn't be more happy about this :).
There is an enormous increase in intellectual, mental investigation. Like a new driving force that I never had before. I can't wait to read new material and build new ideas with it etc.
There is more, but much is still in the process of discovering and evaluating.

Anyway, this experience brought me into contact with my self judgments big time and I'm pretty sure that some of them have been resolved to a certain degree and I agree with you TH, that these judgments are powerful and need to be addressed at some point in life.

TraineeHuman

16th December 2013, 11:21

Eram, you've agreed absolutely that "experience is king", so I wonder if Hylozoics is a collection of experiential exercises? If it isn't, then I'm afraid I don't really see how experience really is king. I'm not saying that as a way of trying to put Hylozoics or whatever you are pursuing down. If it's a collection of experiential exercises, I would really be interested in seeing them and doing them, or their equivalent. If it's not, well, my own individual focus is on experience, actually.

Spiritual evolution isn't primarily achieved through intellectual study or debate. Such debate tends to have a harsh edge to it. It's always far easier to criticize others and claim they are wrong than to face oneself. Everyone -- or virtually everyone -- isn't aware of their shadow, but debating of the right-fighting sort ("I am right and you are wrong") is a great way to ignore all those areas within themselves that a person isn't facing, and doesn't even know about. It's not helpful.

The reason why I chose the OB (intended in the broadest sense) as a topic to start a thread about was, it's pretty hard to talk about it except in reference to the experiences of it you've had -- or at least the experiences you've been having of failing to get OB. The only reason I fail to stick to pure experience all the time in this thread is that it seems too many readers, for whatever reason, won't overcome their resistance (mostly originating in their shadow, no doubt) to just do it -- and only talk after they've done something. I've included various exercises in this thread, and if memory serves me, only AwakeInADream and sway have come back with any truly detailed comments about what they experienced in such exercises -- even though I've tried to emphasize that that was what it was all about. (My apologies if I've left someone out.) I've also commented on members' dreams because again, at least that was experience, not theory.

Eram

16th December 2013, 12:19

As far as I'm able to judge at this moment (I am still reading the material), hylozoics teaches how to set up ones own experiential exercises.
It teaches how we can use our senses to come to objective interpretations of our experiences and reality.
It also makes some suggestions as to how here and there.

But, it is not all about setting up experiential exercises, just as this thread is not only about experiential exercises.
In order to come to the most essential part (the experiential exercises), there is also a model of reality which is to be used as a guide, just as you explain a lot too about reality with the same purposes.

The problem is, there are some fundamental differences in the explanation of reality in hylozoics (or in esoterics in general) and the more popular view that mostly originates from the east.
Also the exercises that are derived from hylozoics, are less pointed towards getting rid of the mind (the investigative part) as in general the enlightenment movement is.
Hylozoics is more about following the path of logic and the interpretation of sensory experiences in the physical, combined with an explanation of reality derived from an higher point of existence (or so it is claimed).

I have been putting my attention to the enlightenment movement (I don't know a better word to describe it) for more then a year and when I got in contact with hylozoics, I got really upset when I read about some of the different views on reality.
I can only imagine how it must feel for people who invested more then a year (maybe 40 years or more) in it :P.

Certain reservations and observations that I had about this enlightenment movement, were all explained in hylozoics though, up to a degree that it made perfectly sense to me why I had these reservations.
Íf you like, you can read most of it in two chapters here.
The first is to give the basics of the hylozoic model and the second is for its explanations about al streams of yoga and how they are right in certain aspects, but also where they got it wrong.
the problems of reality part one (laurency.com/KVe/kr1.pdf)
yoga in the light of esoterics (laurency.com/KVe/kr7.pdf)

I have done a lot of your exercises by the way.
Some with success, some with less :)
Everything that has to do with meditation though... there is some sort of resistance involved on my part and I'm not so certain that I agree that it has only to do with my shadow (though I agree that a part of it is ;)).

All in all, I find great value in what you offer here, but well, I stumbled into this material that has a different explanation to certain parts of your explanations about reality.
It's difficult to be a participant here and not to mention them.

As far as I'm concerned, we can agree to disagree (only on some topics) and I'm not at all interested to get into a "my truth is more true then yours" debate :P.
(I have to confess though, that I sometimes want to bring the hylozoics interpretations to a discussion, just to see if others are able to see flaws in it, because I'm still new to this hylozoics there still some doubt here and there. it will remain till I found objective proof I guess :))

I just want to make clear where I stand and that the record on hylozoics is straight.

Highwhistler

16th December 2013, 12:54

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Part 1: .Natural abilities I've noticed when Out of the Body

In my OB experiences, I am absolutely and brilliantly awake, clear, completely calm and ultimately centered.

The "I" that I am when OB, is a non-physical functional center of awareness.

The awareness is not spread out over a large area of space, it is individualized into a center ... and the center is me -- a presence -- a non-physical, conscious, alert and fully awake presence that is outside and free of my physical body.

As mentioned in an early post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=771182&viewfull=1#post771182), the center of awareness is weightless ... it sometimes will be in an atmospheric human body made of light (kind of like a ghost), but usually it is without any form, whatsoever.

Me, as this center of awareness outside of the body, naturally looks forward as if the center of awareness has eyes that are looking in 1 direction, but remarkably, with the absolute ease, it can have 360-degree vision if it so desires -- something that is impossible when in the physical body, of course.

When out of the body in a wide-awake fully conscious experience, I find that the center of awareness that I am, is not using the normal terrestrial-oriented mind that is woven into my physical body. And the center of awareness when out of the body does not have the same concerns or interests that my physical body-mind-emotional instrument has.

For instance, one may think "When I get out of my body, I want to go see how my Mom is doing in Florida." But, once you are wide awake and out of the body, you might find that you could care less about visiting your Mom in her physical form, in her physical house, in Florida. You might not even feel that you are related to her in any grand sense. You might feel throughout your being, and know with supreme confidence, that you are more related to other Presences elsewhere on the planet and in other realms throughout the Universe.

When OB and wide awake, you have new abilities. For instance: rather than seeing your Mom at her physical location on Earth, you simply have instant awareness of her. With the knowledge that she is OK, you might find yourself more interested in trees nearby, or meditating when out of body, or pondering spiritual things, or using your abilities to visit other places, other dimensions and so on ...

In my experiences, there are two general ways to travel when fully conscious out of the body. One way is to soar like a bird. This is good for taking in views like landscapes. Soaring also is what I do when I first get out of the body and pass through walls and go to the outside physical world. I often move slowly ... at a human-like pace, or I can speed up and fly as fast as a bird.

But you don't have to be limited to that type of travel when out of the body. The other way is just to be in another location instantly -- as a wide awake, functional center of awareness. There is no time involved. Your presence simply wakes up in a new location, or even another dimension or realm.

Experiencing the mechanics of travel in this way -- instant relocation without any barriers of time and space -- has lead me to believe that the functional center of awareness that I am (and everyone is, I imagine), when out of the body, is quantum field-based.

It is like we are already entangled with infinite locations, and can simply appear in other locations (as a fully awake center of awareness) in less than the twinkle of an eye.

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TraineeHuman

16th December 2013, 14:29

Eram, I have the following comments regarding the second piece, "yoga in the light of esoterics". I don't claim to be expert on Yoga or on Vedanta, and my own preferred philosophical/metaphysical outlook is probably closer to Taoism than anything else. However, the ridiculous things that the author claims are subscribed to by "the yogis" certainly aren't true of "yogis" such as Sri Aurobindo or Ramana Maharshi. Aurobindo, following the Rig Veda, says that there is a higher and higher level of "Matter" at each higher level of reality, for instance. So it seems to me that the author is quite intellectually ignorant or dishonest when it comes to "yogis" such as these. It seems to me that the author is conveniently setting up a phoney paper tiger. The author also makes many dogmatic assertions without arguing for them. That seems to imply that the author believes such assertions to be self-evident truths. But that's not an OK excuse for not providing any argument to support them.

I happen to have a postgraduate degree in philosophy, and to me the author sounds very ignorant of a great many issues and methodologies from philosophy, yet writes as if he or she is an expert on philosophy and its history, among other things, and frankly makes some errors that would rank him or her a long way below some philosophy undergraduates.

I've recommended the book The Dancing Wu Li Masters to you because it explains in very easy-to-read terms why certain Taoist concepts explain the discoveries/phenomena of subatomic physics much better than if one takes one's primitive concepts to be form, matter and space. In doing so, it also gives the reader some idea of what sorts of foundational concepts one might use as an alternative to the concept of "matter".

But as I've been saying, the number one question is what have you been experiencing, and did it make your life better at some deep level?

Eram

16th December 2013, 15:14

Well, the exploration of the shadow self that your recommended have brought great change in my life (on a deep level I would say).
The iboga session that I wrote about in my first post today was a direct continuation of that exploration.

This is the part that fitted me easiest about all that you wrote about.

I guess we are all different in our approach and the way we travel and I would argue that not all the follow up on some recommendations that you make post about them here.
Most of them are not even members to begin with.

So Laurency was wrong in some of his assumptions eh?
That's highly suspicious ;).

I had downloaded the books that your recommended for future reading btw, thanks!

Kalamos

16th December 2013, 16:40

..........

TraineeHuman

17th December 2013, 01:54

As far as I've seen so far, from the proponents of Hylozoics, H. is what I would call an ideology or belief system. Also, so far it seems to me to be an extension of, or a New Ageish branch of, something many call scientism, or positivism (which has absolutely nothing to do with being positive). Many analysts suggest that scientism/positivism replaced Christianity as the dominant religion subscribed to at least by academics and the elite and some other intellectuals from about the eighteenth century onwards. Many consider the rise of corporations in the twentieth century and this century, and the destruction of the environment, to be direct byproducts of its influence and methods (plus greed, which some consider it unwittingly also promotes). Think "bean counters", KPIs, downsizing, among others. Up until about 1970ish, the University was scientism's Church, and then Institutes of Technology began to take over. The destructive side of scientism had to do with its narrow view that anything other than "objective facts" is nonsense. For instance, in 1931 one of its leading proponents, Rudolf Carnap at the University of Chicago, organised a huge international conference where he proclaimed that all values and all emotions and all aesthetics are meaningless and nothing but illusions -- and the conference was designed to explore how to systematically apply that dogma throughout society. Hence the "civilised" world became a kind of drab, grey place, particularly in the world of work and education. Scientism/positivism also leads to behaviorism as the model of robotic -- er, sorry, I meant human -- behavior.

Scientism also had many direct or indirect connections with modernism. The basis of scientism was the belief that nothing is true except what can be ascertained from the experience of the physical senses, or through the scientific method. Today we are considered to be in a post-modern era. Partly this is because it became clear that the scientific method contained some false assumptions, and hence is limited and flawed. You might like to read some of the writings of Paul Feyerabend, who for some decades has been the most influential figure in the philosophy of science. One of the things Feyerabend argues for in great detail is that science is simply one game among many, with its own unique rules, but that there are other games which are no less valid/real and no less important. Many of the most influential sociologists discuss and argue for similar conclusions. I don't remember the names of most of them, but Baudrillard and Derida are two I can recall right now. One thing that is a part of mystical experience at a certain level -- and which I have also experienced and know -- is the discovery that there is no such thing as "the world out there". In the worlds of sociology and philosophy this fact is proved through intellectual arguments and considerations, so you guys might like to read up on those arguments.

Eram

17th December 2013, 08:21

To compare hylozoics with new-age and scientism is completely incorrect TH.

If you were to compare it with other models, you might try Gnosticism or Theosophy.
At least there, you can find overlaps. :)

TraineeHuman

17th December 2013, 09:08

Fine, if you say so, Eram. I guess scientism is usually accompanied by the denial of any level of reality beyond the physical and its epiphenomena. But as far as I can see so far, Hylozoics admits the existence of higher planes of reality but seems to have basically the same (or equivalent) assumptions about each higher plane as scientism and positivism have regarding the physical plane?

Eram

17th December 2013, 09:17

Ahh, I see how you got to such a comparison.

Well, my knowledge of hylozoics does not go very deep at the moment, so I am on thin ice when trying to explain this...
Hylozoics says that the emotional worlds and the lower mental worlds are thought responsive, so you get conformation for everything that you hold for truth and so it is not possible to find objective proof for anything there.

Calamus might be able to give a better explanation. :)

Highwhistler

17th December 2013, 11:15

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Part 2: .Natural abilities I've noticed when Out of the Body

In my fully conscious OB experiences -- no matter where my non-physical out of body "form" is at on the planet or anywhere in the Multiverse -- I have the ability to instantly and effortlessly check back in with my meditating physical body-mind at its physical location on Earth.

For example: during an OB experience in which I (as a functional center of awareness that is wide awake and separate from the physical body) am exploring a lake and forest ecosystem that is hundreds of miles away from my meditating physical body-mind, when I get the notion to check in on my physical body-mind to see if it's OK -- I don't have to travel back to my body in physical terms. What happens to me is that a part of my awareness instantly appears in my physical body ... and I can see and hear what the physical body-mind is thinking, how its meditation is going, how the body is calm and relaxed, I can even use the body's ears to detect sounds in my home and in the world that surrounds my physical home ...

Then, when I'm satisfied that all is well with my physical body ... in less than the twinkle of an eye, I am fully back into the conscious OB experience and will resume exploring the lake and forest ecosystem.

What I believe is happening here, is that the non-physical individualized Presence that is me (as well as you and everyone, I imagine), is not locked into a psychic box as a single Presence. It is not exclusively a single conscious functional center of awareness all the time. It has the natural ability to duplicate itself -- or to send parts of its awareness to other locations. Each part is functioning in the here-and-now as an individualized Presence, all are working simultaneously ... and all are linked and can share their experiences back to you, the dominate awake Presence. This all happens effortlessly and you know it's a totally natural thing to do, when out of the body.

In the example I gave above, about being out of the body and having a fully conscious experience and then having the ability to check back into my physical body mind -- that example expresses the understanding that my physical body-mind is not turned off during the fully conscious OB experience, but it has a relaxed functioning Presence that is continuing normally. But, the dominate focus of my awareness is in the version of myself that is OB and having experiences at a distance.

I believe that the webs of connection that link the different offsprings of Presence to one another is not the electromagnetic field or anything physical -- it is a quantum field-based communication system.

For instance, when the awake and alert OB Presence has the desire to see, feel, know what is happening at a distant location, it can stay at its current location and effortlessly make a conscious part of itself appear in that distant location, and send back information and experiences from that other location. It's kind of like the dominant OB Presence is the central intersection where all information is being gathered up and experienced, and it has conscious satellites of itself at other locations gathering their own experiences and telepathically sending their data back to you, the dominate Presence.

To me, this ability is not used during every OBE ... but it's just one of the unique natural abilities that I've noticed I have (and I assume everyone has) while OB.

It is also evidence that says that Presence is not limited to a single, local version of itself, but that it is much larger, it is quantum field-based, and that conscious parts of it can be in multiple locations simultaneously.

Once you go on several bright and awake, conscious excursions away from your body, you realize that you (as a functional non-physical center of awareness -- a Presence) can appear fully conscious back in your body instantly. There is no need to worry that you will not be able to find your physical body, because you will know throughout your being that you are linked to it.

For instance, let's say you are in a full-blown conscious OB journey, and you are a thousand miles in physical distance from your physical body ... but back at your physical body and physical home, your baby cries or your dog barks -- in less than the twinkle of an eye and with no effort whatsoever, you will suddenly appear fully conscious and fully present, back in your body so that you can immediately check on your child, or see what the heck the dog is barking at.

Just in case you're interested, here's the link to Part 1 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=772865&viewfull=1#post772865) of "Natural abilities I've noticed when OB."

24183

Highwhistler

17th December 2013, 12:19

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2 FREE OBE DOWNLOADS

Hi Friends,

I just remembered that in a book of short stories that I wrote several years ago, there are 3 stories that contain out of body experiences.

You are invited to download a pdf version of the book for free. Click the image or link below:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/www.soulconnection.net/downloads/project_avalon_community/SFT_book_3D_medium4.gif24184 (http://www.soulconnection.net/downloads/books/project_avalon_community/SFT_Vol1_eBook.pdf)
Stories for Transformation > Volume 1 > pdf (http://www.soulconnection.net/downloads/books/project_avalon_community/SFT_Vol1_eBook.pdf)

Here are the start pages for the 3 stories and a brief intro into the intention behind each one:

Starts on page 80
Tree of Life
This story will help people who are bothered by obsessive thinking.

Starts on page 100
Finding My Inner Father
This story helps people who have issues stemming from a very dysfunctional relationship with a parental figure.

Starts on page 130
Eternal Heart
Two stories, read separately, intertwine into one. The stories speak of compassion that knows no boundaries, multi-dimensional reality, the prime importance of pets and the magical ways that the Universe can use our Presence and its natural abilities to help others.

.................................................................................................... ..

And just in case you missed one of my earlier posts on this thread, here's an essay I wrote that you are also welcome to download and freely share with others:

24185 (http://www.soulconnection.net/downloads/books/project_avalon_community/OBE_Intro.pdf)
Introduction to the OBE (http://www.soulconnection.net/downloads/books/project_avalon_community/OBE_Intro.pdf)

TraineeHuman

17th December 2013, 22:49

One thing I take it Laurency is apparently quite unaware of is that these days philosophers and sociologists generally agree that that which is certain is not objective, but intersubjective. For instance, if you attempt to doubt everything, the one thing you can't doubt at all, whatsoever, is that there is some kind of consciousness in whatever "you" are that's doing the doubting. That certainty is something each person experiences subjectively. But it's essentially the same experience, and hence the same certainty, in everyone's case. Hence it's intersubjective.

Also, recently we're seeing Teka very clearly describing direct experiences in astral projection and also in "mystical" states of consciousness. These would also be considered intersubjective, because they are direct -- I would claim often more direct than any physical sense experience -- and because everyone can experience them, provided they realize their potential to do so.

On the other hand, objective truth generally has to do with scientific theories. And a necessary condition for a scientific theory to be acceptable is that it has to be falsifiable. If it's discovered not to be falsifiable, it gets trashed. However, anything that's falsifiable is, by definition, false. The idea is that a good scientific theory will also be one which it's extremely hard to falsify. From some recent posts regarding the electric universe I understand that Newton's theory of gravity is getting significantly falsified, or at least qualified, at last -- but that's been an exceptionally long run for a scientific theory to last.

I'd also like to briefly mention one of the inadequacies of the scientific method. I'm not denying that science provides us with some valuable knowledge -- but it's not the only valuable knowledge, despite the scientific mindset's egocentric worldview that no other knowledge is valid. The scientific method involves extreme manipulation and overcontrol of whatever is being experimented on. Preferably it should be inanimate, but if animate it needs to be rendered almost inert, and restricted to a very narrow set of choices of how it's allowed to behave. Notice how this ties in with heavy conditioning and things like fascism and the way communist states have usually been governed. If the experimental "subject" -- it's actually very objectified or blindfolded and gagged, so to speak -- is a living creature, then the experiment won't work unless the experimenter either de-creaturefies (or de-humanizes) the "subject" successfully, or can discount most of the creature's animate qualities -- such as the exercise of freedom of choice. But you need to read the discussions in the philosophy of science of the last few decades, particularly by Paul Feyerabend, who is the generally acknowledged star in that field.

Highwhistler

18th December 2013, 12:27

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Part 3: .Natural abilities I've noticed when Out of Body

Before I begin with Part 3, I would like to be clear that all of what I'm sharing about the OB experience has come from my direct, first-hand experiences. This does not mean that what I've experienced happens to everyone and in the same way. My experiences are not the laws of the land, the laws of the spirit, nor the laws of the cosmos. They simply are my experiences. Everyone can and will have their own unique OBEs ... and your experiences may be 180-degrees different than mine. I welcome that to be the case.

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OK, this sharing will be about once you are out of the physical body and fully awake as a functional, mobile, center of awareness -- if you are anything like my non-physical Presence in OB, by default you are self-balancing, self-orchestrating, self-realizing, you are cool, calm, and have arrived in a state of being that has ethics beyond the current cultures of the physical world.

For instance, one might think when in the physical body, when using the physical mind, and having the normal thoughts, desires, and passions of worldly life ... you might think:

"Man ... when I get out of the body, I'm going to immediately go over to check out my hot neighbor, maybe try to see him or her in bed, in the shower, or with her top off." or "When out of the body, I'm going to spy on such-and-such, and get to the bottom of this conspiracy." or "When out of the body, I'm going to pay a little visit to my enemy, or to this celebrity that I'm crazy about, or to the President."

But when it actually happens -- when you are out of the body and fully aware about what is happening -- if you are like me, you could care less about any of those things mentioned in the paragraph above. Not only do you not care, you would never dream of doing those things. Those burning desires and fantasies usually do not even arise in your awareness when involved in the wide-awake OB experience. That's just worldly stuff ... and those considerations have nothing to do with your essence, with your nature, your desires, your understandings and your relationships to Spirit, Nature and the Cosmos, when out of the body.

When out of the body, you are in a different part of your being ... which does not use the mind, desires and passions that are part of the physical body-mind, or the character that you portray in the physical world. The wide-awake centered Presence when out of the physical body, in my personal experience, instantly knows itself to be a part of Nature, a part of the spiritual multiverse, a part of the vast Cosmos ... and you are utterly comfortable in this identity.

One who does not remember having OB experiences, may think that when they go out of the body for the first time and are wide awake in full consciousness, they may think that they will freak out and go crazy in fear. But in my experience, just the opposite happens. You, as a non-physical Presence that is out and away from your body -- you are totally calm, clear, at peace, at ease. You are more awake than ever before. The out of body Presence that you are, is absolutely composed ... you feel and know that you've done this a million times before, you inherently know your nature and abilities, and you may even feel more at home in OB, than when in the physical body and doing your daily external life. You may feel for the first time in your life, that Nature and the Universe are embracing you, supporting you in every way, and certainly sustaining your freedom to be in the OB state.

When fully awake out of the body, there are natural high ethics of the cosmos built-into you and part of the very fabric of your nature. All the desires that you have in physical form, are gone. You feel that you do not want to hurt a fly, that you have no enemies, that you are part of Nature ... you are emotionally harmonious at an other-worldly level. All that is self-evident. You do not feel like a citizen to any country, a member of any religion or culture ... you feel more like a natural awake Presence and totally interwoven into the earthly ecosystems that come into your awareness, and the entire Universe.

Simultaneously, without even thinking about it, you have deep respect for all the significant considerations that your physical body-mind has in its current incarnation. Hence, if your body in physical form needs to go to work, or attend to a child, or go to the bathroom, or whatever ... your out of body Presence respects that and will end the OB experience immediately. All of the consciousness that was focused out of the body having experiences at a distance, will instantly, effortlessly, and harmoniously, be reassembled back into your full awareness in the physical body.

And so the abilities to be self-balanced, self-orchestrated, self-realized, and to act completely ethical are part of the dna of the OB Presence.

Equally fascinating is what happens to the part of your being that is here in 3D -- you, here in the physical world. After having fully conscious OB experiences, you develop a new level of street smarts about how to see, feel, know and behave in the physical world. The OB experience does not make you more wacko ... you don't think: "Well, since I can fly in OB, I can jump off a building and everything will work out just fine." You don't think: "My kid can play in the street because she's really a non-physical Presence." You don't have those types of thoughts. You will have your head screwed on straight in healthy new ways, effortlessly.

The OB Presence transmits some of its knowledge about the Multiverse to you, and you assimilate it into your practical day-to-day physical world existence. It may no longer be a problem to get up and go to work, the little things don't bother you, you now have a deeper respect for your physical body and creating a harmonious environment at home for your loved ones. You are instantly drawn to things like hospice work, and protecting the energetic atmospheres of your loved ones, you're more appreciative of gardens, trees, rivers, the star-filled skies, the magic and mystery of life.

Once you have the fully awake OB experience, and if you can figure out how to have the experience at will ... something else may change for the version of you in the physical world: You certainly will have no need for meditation teachers, gurus, saints, priests, books, their holy messages, their words of wisdom, you will no longer give them adoration, you will have no interest in their temples, churches, websites, workshops, Youtube videos and so on. They will now appear to you as normal, everyday people -- no wiser, no better, no more sacred than you or any of your neighbors.

If they (professional spiritual teachers) happened to be across the street ... you probably will not even take the time to walk across the street to go see them, as to you they now appear to be no different than the average Joe. If fact, they, their words, and what they represent may no longer be interesting to you at all. More than likely, their teachings will seem to be a bunch of words and hype -- wishy-washy crap designed for mass consumption, that has absolutely nothing to do with your own daily spiritual reality composed of your own direct, clear, repeatable, normal, first-hand experiences. When you have your own dynamic spiritual experiences continually and with ease ... who needs a spiritual master to mentor you in the physical world?

Just in case you're interested, here are links to Part 1 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=772865&viewfull=1#post772865) and Part 2 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=773272&viewfull=1#post773272) of "Natural abilities I've noticed when OB."

24193

TraineeHuman

19th December 2013, 13:10

Highwhistler, I love your superbly clear descriptions, and the great depth of your experiences and realizations. My only concern -- if I may -- is that most members -- including most of the very earnest, very genuine ones who undoubtedly thirst to begin to find liberation, or more of whatever they've achieved so far -- most of these will have trouble relating fully to many of your experiences because they haven't had such experiences themselves, or not as fully or consciously.

I guess it's probably a little like the way the South American Indians simply didn't see all the tall Spanish galleons that had weighed anchor in plain view of their shores. I understand it was only when after a few days some of their shamans observed that the galleons were clearly there, that the rest of the Indian population started to at least admit the possibility that those ships were there. The shamans, of course, had diligently trained themselves to see reality much more clearly or fully. But I understand it took weeks for any of the other Indians to become vaguaely conscious they might indeed be seeing such ships. I understand that for most of them, it was only when Spanish soldiers appeared before them that Spaniards ceased to be invisible in their eyes.

I'll be the first to admit that in this thread I've probably put too much emphasis on describing higher level experiences and phenomena that I too know or have seen. And I've hopefully learnt a little regarding that from reflecting on some of your posts. In many of my posts, though, I've made at least some attempt to look for connections with the situation of the beginner, etc. It would be great to hear more about your journey to getting where you are now. Including anywhere that you failed, or felt temporarily discouraged. It sounds like you've practised meditation -- or Silence -- for an hour or two (?) close to every day over many years. It also sounds like you developed your OB projection, including bilocation, abilities via what you achieved or experienced through meditation?

One question I imagine many would be wondering about is: what kind of journey (for lack of a better word) did you go through to get where you are today? What kind of potholes did you encounter? What kinds of suffering? What types of misguidance from yourself or others?

Another major question would be what were some of your experiences of the journey of slef-psychotherapy (or whatever) and self-watching -- to transform the ego, and the shadow. And how did you manage to do that successfully? And, for example, did you find yourself going through a very, very long period of what seemed like increased suffering before the suffering eventually started to become lighter and lighter? And how did you deal with the insanity of our society and civilisation before you were stable in the Silence? Also with the need to both survive in it financially and emotionally and also to learn from it in a psychological/spiritual sense, by engaging in it and experiencing relationships?

Then there's the issue that in an internet forum much of what we can offer is only words. How do we help others get over the tendency to want to figure it all out intellectually -- in advance! Can you perhaps offer an instructive exercise or two, or something along those lines? And can you, for example, perhaps offer something more to any people who insist there are no infinities because they have never experienced one?Other, that is, than something along the lines that once they have directly experienced and realized a sufficiently high level of reality, they will understand?

Highwhistler

21st December 2013, 11:57

TH requested that I share a little of my own spiritual background as well as meditation & OB techniques that I feel might be helpful to beginners. I will divide my responses into 2 posts ... one today and another in the next couple days. This message is about my spiritual background.

But first I should say that even tho I've meditated everyday for 40 years, I too, am a beginner. Every moment I'm right back to the original psychic starting point -- the beginning -- with no rules about how I will do this or that, or with preconceptions about what should happen, and what will happen next.

Actually, the beginning is a great place to be as you are not bound by spiritual teachers and systems, their messages, their energies, psychic spaces (as well as empty spaces), their stories and techniques.

A beginner with an open heart is like a child who is free to play, explore, and to create experiences -- beyond the boundaries and levels of perceptions that popular spiritual systems are trying to get you to engage with, to see, feel, and to believe in.

............................................................................

I started meditating in 1970 and have done it everyday, ever since. I was initiated by a lovely guru of sound & light meditation, and from 1970 to 1985 I meditated at least 3 hours a day ... usually getting up at 3am and meditating straight to dawn -- doing classic meditation, sitting in the full lotus, meditating the way that I was taught, sometimes with mantras and other times with silent inner focusing techniques. I followed all the suggestions by my meditation teacher and moved right up the levels of perception, as prescribed. Countless times I awakened at midnight and would meditate straight through to sunrise ... and would get in hours of bonus meditation on days that I was free.

I also was not locked-into a single meditation technique or system, but was interested in everything. I gave a good test-drive to all techniques and their belief systems that came my way. I especially liked the open psychic spaces of Buddhist meditation, but found the male monks and their followers to be spiritually robotic in 3D space and not very much fun to be around. I still love their safron robes and all that ... but felt most of them to be lacking in true joy, expansive inner freedom, and without any assimilation of the energies, insights and mind-styles that are native to children and women. Still, when people ask me what type of spiritual thing I do, I often reply: "It's like Buddhism ... but with a hell of a lot more fun."

While my early spiritual meditative explorations were unfolding, I married and had 4 children. Two are now teachers of English and Physics ... and 2 passed away, one in my arms. These profound experiences got me interested in hospice ... and through the years I've been at the bedside of many to assist & comfort them and their families, and to witness their last moments of this incarnation. Btw: I've worked in a hospital emergency room for a few years and am not squeemish with bandaging wounds, helping the sick, and being with people when they pass on.

A few years after my kids passed away (in the early '80s), I slowly awakened to new understandings about who and what I am as an ordinary human being, the nature of normal consciousness experienced continually, as well as the entanglement of conscious Presence with local physical ecosystems as well as simultaneously a part of the infinite non-physical Multiverse.

Again: these realizations were a gradual, slow unfolding and they did not come in a flash. But over time I had continual realizations about the anatomy of consciousness, the nature and abilities of Presence, and the entangled infinitely well-designed Multiverse that we are part of.

My meditation master, nor the Buddha, nor any teacher of any spiritual system, nor any book that I had come across, had ever mentioned the things that I was realizing. Understanding that I was in an original incredibly alive spiritual space and not wanting to break the continuity of my love for it ... I boldly tossed out every scrap of material spiritualism that I had collected over the years. I thew out my guru, his teachings, his spiritual system, his view of the Universe. I deleted every conventional meditation technique from the spaces within my heart, mind and subtle energy systems. I tossed out all spiritual ideas that I had ever used, all books, articles, holy beads, posters, meditation cushions, clothing, all sacred sayings, shrines in my home, all teachings -- everything gone-gone-gone.

And so I started all over from scratch.

Rather than using the energies, transmissions and ideas from meditation teachers -- I went on my own path with nothing ... just my Presence and the Multiverse. From then on, everything would be from direct first-hand, repeatable, continual experiences.

Very quickly, this freedom allowed me to instantly quiet my mind in creative new ways -- to "stop the world" so to speak -- and to merge with the silence, stillness and infinite peace of the Universe. Not clinging to or limited by anything taught before, I became able to use my Presence and attention in new ways ... with absolute ease. This unfolding of ongoing self-realization, self-balancing, self-orchestration began close to 3 decades.

I'm most interested in:

the anatomy of awareness

the nature and abilities of Presence, and

the entangled Multiverse that the Presence experiences first-hand, in this ... the eternal moment of Now.

Within the anatomy of awareness, I have a special interest in:

the nature and abilities of our primary focusing tool of awareness: the attention.

I do not study what popular meditation experts say, I don't buy or read their books, their essays, their articles. I don't go to their classes and workshops. I'm uninterested in the teachings of classic meditation teachers as well as the trances they share with others. For me, that stuff is not inspiring. Simultaneously, I embrace the Multiverse and welcome ALL to exist and freely express their insights, beliefs and passions in whatever ways they so desire ... whether I'm dancing in-tune with them, or not.

Again: my own, personal, primary method of research, exploration and understanding is through direct, repeatable, wide-awake, first-hand, ordinary, everyday, completely natural, normal, fully conscious experiences.

I'm not a teacher of anything ... just a gardener, that's all.

But continuing with TH's request, in my next message I'll share with you a condensed form of the meditation techniques and points of views that I currently use, that may also be helpful to open-hearted beginners.

I am a spiritual radical and my messages will certainly step on the toes of many people's belief systems as well as go against the grain of conventional meditation and OB techniques. And so you are invited to toss my ideas to the side without a single care in the world.

Indeed! -- Please -- go your own way, develop your own methods and views, don't follow me or anyone else. Find your own truths ... and change, delete, and update your truths whenever you please.

Be a light for thy Self.
24214

TraineeHuman

21st December 2013, 12:33

Part of a PM from Libico:

I was wondering if you could recommend a few books designed to introduce quantum physics to the layman? I recall you mentioning The Dancing Wu Li Masters but was wondering if this is the best place to start.

My response is as follows. Physicists have had little option but to accept quantum theory, because without it they're unable to describe or explain all the physical phenomena they study. But quantum theory isn't the ultimate, either, by any chalk. Basically, I'd describe what quantum theory is pointing to as the interaction of infinities with the worlds of forms and objects.

In the language we use we have words occurring one at a time in a single, one-dimensional sentence.That isn't how the HM works. The HM doesn't take in or give out one "word" or sentence at a time, but huge, gigantic numbers of them simultaneously -- all from many, many different directions at once, so to speak. That makes it very difficult for anyone to describe what the HM equivalent of "language" is like.

But I'll give it a bash. The first language I learnt was Lithuanian, which in its original form is a universal language. (It's older than Sanskrit, and very closely related to Sanskrit.) In a universal language, any two words that sound similar have closely similar meanings. One word in English which kind of almost behaves like a word in a universal language would is the word "see". In English we also have the word "sea" -- which, if you ponder it, really refers to your entire horizon of view, without singling out any one item. And that's what the sea looks like when we're looking at ocean, but you can -- at a slight stretch of the imagination (bigger than what you'd need in Lithuanian) -- just manage to stretch it to this. If you look at them carefully, words like "seat" and "scene" and "seem" and "seep" are all kind of linked to what we see. Even the ending "-cy" usually means "whatever we see of" whatever precedes it. I'm not sure if "cedar" or "cease" can fit into this. But maybe you get the idea. When I was very, very young I learnt most Lithuanian words by guessing, and getting my parents to correct me where necessary. That was because I already knew roughly what the new word I was looking for would sound like. Can you see, though, that in an important sense when you're using one word in such a language you're also pointing to all the words that have a similar sound -- and even, more indirectly, to all other words in that language at once? I've read in the Forum how more evolved ET races seem to use universal languages, or something even beyond that. Well. of course they do. Universal languages -- such as Lithuanian and Sanskrit -- give at least a hint of what the HM's true "language" is more like.

I'm saying all this because, as I see it, in some respects even quantum theory is only really a baby step to such a more evolved level of "language". I certainly know that, and deeply feel the inadequacy of English. I'm pretty sure Highwhistler, for instance, would agree. One other thing I'd add is that quantum theory is used in physics to link to, or to reinterpret, talk of objects and energy. But I'd suggest that in itself it's more a gateway to other things than objects. The concepts of form, matter and space were invented, in recent times, by Socrates, and developed by Aristotle. But Socrates, Aristotle and Plato all freely admitted that Heraclitus' conceptual framework was incomparably superior to their own. And that they didn't teach the latter only because it was too hard for others to understand at that time.

The language we use, and the concepts we use, aren't neutral, at all. Nor are they anywhere near as passive as most would imagine. They actively mold what things seem "visible" to us and what ones seem quite invisible. In posts # 1446 and #1440 I've already described what I understand to be some of the negative or destructive consequences of using object- or matter- related concepts -- as long as they're taken to cover the whole truth rather than a limited, finite subset of a much bigger picture.
It's way past time for the human race to take the leap of adopting a a different set of its most basic underlying concepts.

Moving now to books or whatever regarding quantum theory. Yes. The Dancing Wu Li Masters is the easiest to read -- though some of the Tom Campbell videos, such as those quoted in this thread, are also simply expressed. And there's an older book by Fritjof Capra, called The Tao of Physics, which doesn't cover as much territory.

In your case, Libico, you may find interesting connections with some of the Kabbalistic teachings. Most (though not all) of the physicists who developed atomic and subatomic theory were of Jewish descent. Some of them noticed that the phenomena they were trying to make sense of as physicists seemed to make sense only in terms of various Kabbalistic notions, which they seemed to fit with like a glove. They weren't aware of Taoist notions, but the Kabbalistic ones are very good also. Some of the developers of modern physics wrote extensively about their own deep mystical experiences, inspired by the discovery that even the physical universe reveals so much about much higher dimensions. de Broglie and Bohr in particular wrote wonderfully and at length. A more contemporary leading physicist, if you can follow him, is David Bohm, who died a few(?) years ago. After J. Krishnamurti's death in 1986, Bohm took over the leadership of Krishnamurti's "followers". Krishnamurti being rather widely recognised as the authentic latest reincarnation of the Buddha.

In another post I'll respond to the rest of your PM, Libico.

TraineeHuman

22nd December 2013, 01:00

To continue in response to Libico's PM, in that PM he writes:

when sending out strong thoughts and intentions I find I often get shivers up and down my spine. Since I've been meditating more frequently when asking to connect with my Higher Mind or guides I get these shivers too (quite a bit and they've been happening more frequently as of late). It used to be when meditating I'd for example say "I would like to connect with my GA over x (Shiver)", now I am sending the thoughts much sooner on apparently so I am getting shivers much earlier and for longer lasting intensity. I get the same when projecting white healing light to my kids as I put them to bed, but the strongest shivers occur during meditation. I assume this to be normal but would be interested to hear your experience with such things. If it weren't coming from a positive place, the physical feeling would be indistinguishable from the same shivers you get from fear.

The shivers you're experiencing, Libico, are what occurs because you're pulling the meditation or healing "energy" into your physical body somewhat, no doubt in an unconscious attempt to experience it more fully through the body. I'm sure it feels very nice indeed, very loving, even if it also possibly feels intense or even, therefore, worrying. Both meditation and psychic healing are more effective in their power and their level of transcendence if the meditator or healer is able to detach from themselves (in any lower senses of the self, including the physical body). Paradoxically, the less you try to "do" anything as you, the more powerful the meditation or healing will be. Ditto the more you can relax/expand effortlessly into the Silence of letting everything be just as it is. In the case of psychic healing, though, that's with the qualification that you also need to be focused on the client and being uninvolvedly one with them and the intention of their getting healed. So, healing is a little more complicated. It involves staying with and in the transcendent and yet from that position reaching back into the physical. But you're slightly overdoing the reaching at present.

Such shaking or shivers of a positive kind can certainly be quite useful, though, to anyone who isn't sure about when or if they're experiencing their HM at all. In the nineteenth century, members of the Society of Friends used to be known as the Quakers. That was because at their meetings they would sit in silence -- and ideally in the Silence -- , and if a member felt they received an inspired message from their HM, they would stand and share it with the others. They called themselves Quakers because they considered that when the Spirit filled them their bodies would shake with heightened energy. We should remember, though, that they lived in a very puritanical and uptight age. In that rather repressive culture, allowing themselves to feel something physically that was very pleasurable would have been considered taboo, except under certain special circumstances.

If you detach from trying to feel the physical energies of shivers or tingling in the spine and hands or whatever, you can still learn to more subtly feel the beauty and positivity of such energies. Actually, that's how I usually go to sleep -- feeling the subtle ever so sweet pleasure and love of -- my HM, I guess.

I'd also like to mention here that in a fairly recent post I unfairly neglected to acknowledge how much a number of members have in fact been working on some or all of the exercises in this thread. In addition to Libico and the ones mentioned in my earlier post, these would certainly include seeker1972 and Eram and no doubt Freed Fox, as well as at least several members who haven't posted much or at all, including Laura Elina, for instance.

TraineeHuman

22nd December 2013, 13:16

My meditation master, nor the Buddha, nor any teacher of any spiritual system, nor any book that I had come across, had ever mentioned the things that I was realizing. Understanding that I was in an original incredibly alive spiritual space and not wanting to break the continuity of my love for it ... I boldly tossed out every scrap of material spiritualism that I had collected over the years. I thew out my guru, his teachings, his spiritual system, his view of the Universe. I deleted every conventional meditation technique from the spaces within my heart, mind and subtle energy systems. I tossed out all spiritual ideas that I had ever used, all books, articles, holy beads, posters, meditation cushions, clothing, all sacred sayings, shrines in my home, all teachings -- everything gone-gone-gone.

And so I started all over from scratch.

Rather than using the energies, transmissions and ideas from meditation teachers -- I went on my own path with nothing ... just my Presence and the Multiverse. From then on, everything would be from direct first-hand, repeatable, continual experiences.

Very quickly, this freedom allowed me to instantly quiet my mind in creative new ways -- to "stop the world" so to speak -- and to merge with the silence, stillness and infinite peace of the Universe. Not clinging to or limited by anything taught before, I became able to use my Presence and attention in new ways ... with absolute ease. This unfolding of ongoing self-realization, self-balancing, self-orchestration began close to 3 decades.
...
I do not study what popular meditation experts say, I don't buy or read their books, their essays, their articles. I don't go to their classes and workshops. I'm uninterested in the teachings of classic meditation teachers as well as the trances they share with others. For me, that stuff is not inspiring. Simultaneously, I embrace the Multiverse and welcome ALL to exist and freely express their insights, beliefs and passions in whatever ways they so desire ... whether I'm dancing in-tune with them, or not.

Again: my own, personal, primary method of research, exploration and understanding is through direct, repeatable, wide-awake, first-hand, ordinary, everyday, completely natural, normal, fully conscious experiences.

...

Indeed! -- Please -- go your own way, develop your own methods and views, don't follow me or anyone else. Find your own truths ... and change, delete, and update your truths whenever you please.

Be a light for thy Self.

Once one is stably in touch with Presence, one is at a higher level than the mental worlds. Anybody else's words will exist only at such a mental level. I believe that's the reason why no guru, master, teacher, book, system, and so on can point fully or adequately into the Presence one experiences then. So yes, you're quite right. And it's so ironic that beginners and seekers don't realize it, don't even imagine it could be so, but there's far, far more wisdom and true knowledge available effortlessly when you're in touch with Presence. By comparison, who needs books, or systems, or forums, or whatever?

On the other hand, I find others' words may still be of some use even when we are the zillionaires of life who have Presence. That's provided, of course, that we don't put too much trust in those others' words rather than in our Selves, in our Presence.

I've listened to and worked intensively with many teachers. They could all see, though, that I always kept my own counsel and my own self-sufficient esteem -- rooted in my own Presence, in the light of which they always somehow fell short, and that purely because only I could be my truest teacher. I first had an enlightenment experience just after my sixteenth birthday. That was without any (physical) teacher -- except maybe some very old trees! After all, it was just a matter of experiencing Silence at its deepest, which included experiencing that what I truly was was that.

Then I eventually had more than a hundred teachers with all of whom I worked intensively for several months or occasionally years. In most cases I did everything, or nearly everything, that they claimed was necessary. Quite often they claimed that theirs was the best method -- at least for achieving certain skills or releases. Many of those teachers would judge me according to how much progress I made in mastering their particular methods. If they did so, they would mostly invalidate and trash whatever I had already achieved in Presence. Or they would say something like that I was with great certainty just remembering a previous lifetime or whatever when I had been living at a higher level. Liars. But the very best ones never said anything like that at all.

As (so-called) time put more and more distance between a teacher and me, I realized that in many cases their area of skill was more limited than what they had believed. But each time I also acquired some sets of skills with which to transform or face the ego more effectively -- and that was nearly always the major benefit of having known that teacher. Not that I didn't learn other skills as well -- including psychic skills like astral projection.

loungelizard

22nd December 2013, 14:16

@Highwhistler

So are you basically saying that we should test everything for ourself?
If so, I would agree. And so would the Buddha!

"Do not accept any of my words on faith,
 believing them just because I said them.
 Be like an analyst buying gold, who cuts, burns,
 and critically examines his product for authenticity.
 Only accept what passes the test  
by proving useful and beneficial in your life."
 The Buddha (Jnanasara-samuccaya)

The Four Reliances:
"Rely on the teaching, not on the person;
Rely on the meaning, not on the words;
Rely on the definitive meaning, not on the provisional;
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary mind."

The Kamal discourse:
"Do not believe a spiritual teaching just because:  
1. it is repeatedly recited,  
2. it is written in a scripture,
 3. it was handed from guru to disciple,
 4. everyone around you believes it,
 5. it has supernatural qualities,  
6. it fits my beliefs anyway,
 7. it sounds rational to me,  
8. it is taught by a respectable person,
 9. it was said to be the truth by the teacher,
 10. one must defend it or fight for it. 
However, only when it agrees with your experience and reason, and when it is conducive to the good and gain of oneself and all others, then one should accept the teachings, and live up to them."

Where I would disagree with you is when it comes to the role of a teacher. There is no problem - in any area of life, including the spiritual practice - in appreciating the help a genuine teacher can offer. Let's be honest here…if we want to learn anything in this lifetime, we need the help of those who have gone before, and owe them a debt of gratitude.

The role of a teacher is to help us discover our own inner teacher.

One of the main reasons I value my teachers is they confront me, they stretch me. That which I have considered to be profound insights and realisations have often disappeared in a puff of ego-perfumed smoke when challenged :o !

In your journey, how do you ensure that you don't slip comfortably into smugness, or arrogance? It's very tempting to want to wrap up our wounds carefully in soft bandages, instead of exposing them to scrutiny and so start the healing process.

@Trainee Human - I apologise if I have taken your thread off slightly.

Kalamos

22nd December 2013, 17:33

..........

TraineeHuman

22nd December 2013, 21:17

Highwhistler

22nd December 2013, 23:58

Do you ... believe in reincarnation?

Have you considered that people are on different developmental levels?

Yes, I believe in reincarnation because it seems to be by far the best explanation for certain very clear memories I have, such as of what happened before, during and after my conception just before this lifetime.

I personally believe that reincarnation is the real deal.

I think and feel that it is the normal and natural method of existence that unfolds for an individuated Presence, as it explores and experiences the physical dimension ... and other dimensions, as well. You, the reader, are an individuated Presence -- which is commonly known as a "soul."

In no way are my words, ideas and beliefs written in stone. They are not Universal Truths that apply to every being, everywhere. After all ... my beliefs are only derived from my own continual direct first-hand experiences. You, and every other being in the whole Universe may have first-hand experiences that are 180-degrees different than mine. I whole-heartedly welcome and embrace your experiences and your points of view, as being equal to mine, and as valid as mine ... and that our realities & perceptions exist, simultaneously.

I admit that my first-hand experiences are limited, regarding an individuated soul essence living on, after the physical body dies.

My experiences involve being with many people in a hospice situation over 3 decades, at their bedsides, and witnessing when they pass away. I've repeatedly noticed that a non-physical Presence that inhabited a body, has left the physical form at the moments of so-called "death," and outside of the body the Presence is doing just fine -- in fact, It is way-way better than fine -- it feels FREE. Other people in the room at the moments of transition often comment on experiencing the same thing. There is frequently a collective sense that the individuated Presence that everyone knew, is grateful for all who are gathered, It is so happy to complete the transition, It is loving and utterly calm, and the Presence most often transmits a sense that It is ready to move on to new worlds, new dimensions, and new experiences in the Multiverse.

Also, for over 2 decades I've had many of my own personal experiences of me -- as a wide-awake fully conscious Presence -- being outside of my physical body, and I'm functioning totally naturally and comfortably at a distance from my physical body. These experiences have made me think and feel that the Presence does indeed live on ... and that it has the ability to migrate to new lifetimes, bodies, and dimensions ... maybe even to other Universes.

There are countless additional data streams of experiences, intel, memories and knowledge that have flowed through me (as well as many-many-many people in 3D -- especially children) regarding the knowledge that an individuated Presence does indeed live on, and on, and on. In the near future I will attempt to describe these first-hand experiences in understandable, entertaining ways.

I believe that you -- the Presence who is reading this message ... when your physical body passes away, that you will awaken into another reality. That is ... you will be a Presence in another reality. The transition time from the physical world to the next existence will be immediate ... and for most people, no matter what they did, or thought, or believed in the physical world ... they will feel completely at home, and the actual mechanics and unfolding of the transition will be surprisingly smooth and easy. I believe that most Presences feel more at home and more real after they leave the physical body, than they ever felt here in the so-called physical world.

After the body passes away, rather instantly you will realize that the recent journey into the physical world was primarily for the pure joy of exploring and experiencing for a limited period of space and time, the physical dimension, its cultures, families, mind-styles and collective realities. You may want to return to a new body, a new family, and in a new space and time, and many Presences do ... but you certainly don't have to.

When no longer attached to the physical dimension, you as a dynamic, alive, vibrant, multi-dimensional Presence are far free-er (is that even a word?) than what the popular religions, greatest enlightened gurus, and the most respected spiritual teachers who have ever lived on Earth, have ever said you are.

Happy trails! ... in peace ...

jounai

23rd December 2013, 06:21

Oooh, I like your energy/experience,TraineeHuman. :) Haha, no I didn't read through all the pages posted so far (70+ pages...bit to lazy for that :rolleyes:). Have you read my ET contact thread? What I'm doing in that thread is very close to what you describe as OBE though I haven't got to the stage where I completely separate from the physical body. I have been holding myself back in this somewhat since I already go very fast forward. When I do my traveling in Spirit to different dimensions (been to densities in the range of 3-7th so far) I seldom have the experience of "traveling" somewhere. I just are where I intend to be, much like teleportation. Hehe, sometimes I even exist at several places at once when I'm messing around with the beings I hook up with wherever I travel. I also have a habit to poke people. :P Haha.

I don't really have anything I wish to ask you since I will probably wake up fully to the experience of Spirit travel and whatnot soon enough. Everything has its time. :) I have been doing this traveling, in some shape or form, for about 6 months now and meditation for about 4 years on and off, so I'm kinda new to this still. I'm the type that is completely self learned besides reading some posts like yours and practically experience things for myself. Luckily I have a strong sense of intuition that guides me to not go to fast forward but take my time enjoying the experience. Oh and I'm 26 so I guess I'm just as old you were when you started with this. Haha. :heh:

TraineeHuman

23rd December 2013, 13:54

Hi, jounai. I hadn't read any of your thread, but from what I've read of it so far I don't think it's covering much similar or parallel territory to this thread. After all, virtually all of the multiverse exists "OB" or maybe even beyond that. The physical world is only a tiny corner -- versus all the rest of what exists. So, as I see it, "things OB" covers ever so many different things, and almost everything there is.

You're concerned with exploring ET civilizations. Although I've been visited by various ETs and other beings, and briefly seen all sorts of worlds -- and nearly all the physical or almost physical ones I saw seemed more utopian than ours --, my focus has always been, and continues to be, very different. My interest has been focused on two things. One of these is psychotherapy and psychic healing, and using OB skills and phenomena for that. My other focus has been on not lingering in any world if possible, but always going to higher and higher dimensions/levels, mostly via the Silence; but also on integrating that into one's life in the physical world. Obviously you're on a roll, and nothing could stop you from continuing to explore ET civilizations even further.

I'm also interested in the Higher Mind for many reasons. One is that that is what takes us OB, as far as I know. Secondly, in the physical world we have a physical mind, but the Higher Mind is non-physical, so we can't have physical-mind memories of it or its world. I don't believe we can "translate" everything we see in OB worlds into physical terms. The higher the level of OB, the more "untranslatable" things become.

jounai

23rd December 2013, 16:42

Haha, yeah that might be true. :) Everything spiritual has kinda merged into one theme now for myself...so I don't tend to separate between different types of ideas within the same theme. :) An analogy might be if you have two different flavored icecreams...some people might name them after their different flavors (such as strawberry and chocolate) while i just say "icecream" to them both. ^^

Ah, okay I believe I understand you to some degree. For myself the separation between what you call "higher mind" and "physical mind" is very thin and undefined as I kinda go around with an higher mind perspective during most of my days...it is very close to normal consciousness level for myself. I don't really use the visitations of other worlds and dimensions for healing and such ideas but rather just to explore, enjoy and see what is out there. I have a different more direct process for transmutation of limitations in the physiological and emotional matrices. Of course both these ideas complement each other very well as coming in contact with the higher realms of physical and non-physical experiences has a tendency to accelerate the transmutation process as well...and make the limitations of different types become more apparent. It really is exciting to see how the perspective changes from day to day. :)

Now I will stop hijacking your thread and wish you (and everyone else) a merry Christmas. :) Enjoy! :heh:

Highwhistler

24th December 2013, 13:28

TH requested that I share a bit of my meditation background (click here for that (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=775057&viewfull=1#post775057)) as well as meditation and out-of-body techniques for beginners. This is the post regarding techniques.

Also, related to this message are my 3 earlier posts "Natural abilities I've noticed when Out of the Body:. Part 1 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=772865&viewfull=1#post772865) .|. Part 2 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=773272&viewfull=1#post773272) .|. Part 3 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=773803&viewfull=1#post773803)

Before we begin, please know that everything shared in this message is from my own experience.

You and everyone in the whole Multiverse are infinitely welcome to have your own experiences. I invite and support your differing points of view and I truly want you to develop your own personal techniques that work well for you. And of course: you are FREE to change and update everything, whenever you please! Your experiences, beliefs, techniques and truths are as valid as mine. You are equal to me, and I to you.

I bow to you. You are another me, and I another you.

In this message, I use the worda "I" and "you" and "we" ... and I also write in 3rd person -- all are in a poetic, artistic sense. I'm not saying that my messages are a truth for you, or anyone else in the whole Universe ... nor am I saying that they are Laws of Consciousness written in stone. No freekin' way!

All I'm doing here is translating my first-hand experiences into words ... and trying to make the messages understandable, digestable and entertaining for a broad, diverse audience. And so again: please know that when I use "I" or "you" or "we" and when I talk in 3rd person ... those are figures of speech to help make these ideas flow through words, more clearly.

OK, this message will be divided into 2 parts: The first part explains my Self Identity, Cosmic View & a natural ability of the Presence ... which is essential to understanding the mechanics of the second part that covers Out-of-Body & Meditation Techniques for Beginners.

Btw: I am a beginner with you. I'm not a teacher.

............................................................................

Self Identity, Cosmic View & a natural ability of the Presence

I, like you Dear Reader, are a Presence -- a non-physical, atmospheric, spirit-essence -- a functional center of life and awareness.

We, as Presences, have many extraordinary but completely natural abilities that most of humankind are not presently aware of. But there will come a time in the not-so-distant future, when the knowledge of who and what we are and the positive, creative applications of our abilities will be considered completely normal and commonplace.

Our type of Presence, our species of Presence you might say, are called Creators. One of the many things that we have been designed and educated to do is to is occupy human forms on 3D life-bearing planets. When incarnated into a physical human form -- we are local and interwoven into the exterior fabric of the terrestrial ecosystems, the physical human families and cultures that we know so well. Simultaneously, there is a silent, but more dominant part of our being that is non-local (quantum field-based) -- it is united with other Presences, and in fact, it is entangled with the Universe of Universes -- the Multiverse.

The dominant part of what we are as Presences, primarily lives in fields of infinite silence, emptiness, peace, love, creativity and acceptance. It is at-home in the quantum field. It is ever-present in our physical bodies throughout our lives. But at this moment in humanity's evolution on Earth, the dominant spiritual Presence that we are, stays largely behind the scenes and is not commonly visible or even understandable to the outward-oriented materialistic awareness of most people.

Again: there is a part of our Presence that is oriented to the physical world ... and simultaneously there is the larger part of Presence that is quantum field-based.

To have intentional, fully conscious out-of-body experiences, I use the natural abilities that are part of the normal functioning of the quantum part of my Presence. Specifically: it is the natural ability to effortlessly make a part of my awareness appear and function in another location, while simultaneously having a part of my awareness remaining in my original location. Esoteric writings have called this "bi-location" -- it is that, but it's also much more.

Actually, everyone has experienced this in their normal everyday lives, but since it's as common and ordinary as breathing, no one talks about it. To make this clearer, let's first look at how mobile a feature of the Presence is ... I call this feature "dominant awareness."

For example: when you are walking on a path through the forest and loving it, your dominant awareness is focused "outside" to the beautiful trees, the path, the incredible smells of the woods, the twittering of the birds and so on. But when you are day dreaming or when you are having a dream while sleeping, your dominant awareness it totally focused in the inner worlds. You are not aware of the external worlds. And so you can see that your dominant awareness easily goes from the external physical world ... to the inside worlds of dreams and imagination. This movement of your dominant presence, from outside to inside, is absolutely effortless. It is an essential part of our basic everyday human nature.

But its also totally natural for your awareness and Presence to be in 2 places, simultaneously. For instance: all of us have been on a long boring road trip, and many times during the trip our awareness drifts off into wonderful daydreams, imaginative inner movies, memories of the past or plans for the future. Have you ever been so lost in your inner thoughts while driving ... that when you suddenly return to full awareness that you are driving on the highway ... you realize that you don't have a single memory of driving for the last couple miles? Yet ... you stayed safe on the road, passed cars, you were aware of other vehicles in front and behind, you might even of noticed some of the ecosystems beside the highway.

What actually happened in this situation is that your dominant awareness was indeed focused in the inner worlds of your day dreams ... but you intuitively had the street smarts to leave enough of your awareness out in the physical body-mind-eyes-and-ears, so that you could safely navigate the physical world, pass cars, go around curves, look behind, look forward and all that. You see: your awareness was actually in both locations simultaneously -- that's how you pulled it off. It is so natural and ordinary, that we aren't even aware that it's happening.

Now just imagine, this same process and natural ability of awareness has been happening throughout our lives, in all areas of our lives. Not only do we have parts of our awareness tuned-into the outside world and the inside worlds simultaneously ... we can also have multiple parts of our awareness outside our physical body at the same time, and all parts are functioning with consciousness ... aware of their surroundings ... and it's so absolutely easy and natural that most people don't have a clue that its happening.

For instance: most of the time we are not aware of our heart beating, or that we are breathing ... but those processes are happening quietly and simultaneously in the background of our awareness while we are going about our daily lives. Similarly: the ability of our Presence to send parts of its awareness to other locations, and all function quietly behind the scenes, doing their jobs with the greatest of ease ... well ... that's just an absolute normal, natural, common, and "no big deal" type of thing that we do. Most people are not aware of it, but it is happening all the same.

An Out-of-Body Technique for Beginners

To intentionally create a fully conscious OB experience, I use that natural ability described above. First I use my attention to send a part of my awareness out of the body to an external area -- say to the top of the room that I'm meditating in -- and then I get my dominant Presence to appear in that center of awareness that is away from my body.

Once my dominant Presence is out of my body, I usually take a few moments to settle into it. Once settled-in, I start moving in full awareness to other locations in my home, and to the outside world -- all while fully conscious and out of my body.

Not only can you in the OB experience, move to other locations in the physical world, you can also jump to other dimensions as well.

When out of the body as a dominant wide-awake Presence, you also have the natural ability to check back in with your body-mind in the physical world, in the room where it is meditating, to see how it is doing. Now, the awareness in your physical body while you are fully OB will be similar to the quantity of awareness that you left in the physical body when you were driving along daydreaming ... as in the example above.

Get it?

Babies and young children are probably going OBE as a normal part of their lives ... but over time their parents, teachers, friends and society slowly orient their energies, awareness and beliefs to those of modern cultures. Eventually, the fully conscious aspects of their OB journeys disappear from their awareness.

And so if you are an adult and you want to do fully-awake OBE's, you probably will have to practice. Again: the reason that you may have to practice is because most of us have been conditioned by our parents, teachers and society to only be aware of an incredibly narrow range of conscious spiritual experiences. Practicing helps to dissolve the energetic, psychological and belief barriers that block our natural, first-hand, valid, on-going, psychic experiences ... and the knowledge that comes with them.

First, find ways to totally relax your body, so much so that your physical body can, more or less, disappear from your awareness. I do not recommend sitting in classic meditation poses -- like the lotus or half-lotus -- as they often create noticeable physical stresses on people in different areas of their bodies. Try meditating in a comfortable chair that has the ability to lean way back ... or simply lay in bed, or on a couch. You want to be wide awake and totally fascinated with the process.

Next, practice projecting a small part of your awareness out of your body, and looking around the room with the senses that are functioning in that projection. I call this type of projected awareness -- functional centers of consciousness -- as they have the ability to function: to see, hear, feel, gather intel, and move to other locations at will. The streams of data that they gather (imagery, sounds & feelings) are sent back to you -- YOU, the dominant Presence in the physical body.

You can also practice projecting during your normal day ... when it is safe to do so. For instance, don't do it when you are driving a car. Practice projecting a fragment of your awareness out and away from your physical body when you are doing dishes, or taking care of the garden, whenever you are relaxed and doing a chore that does not take all of your awareness.

For myself, I find it most easy to project a part of my awareness straight up and out the top of my head -- 2 or 3 feet away, and slightly to the right, slightly forward. Then, once it is up there, see if you can get a "satellite feed" from its observations. At first you may get foggy glimmers of it (the functional center of awareness above your body) looking down at you doing the dishes, or looking out the window. At this moment, your dominant awareness will be in your body, doing dishes ... and you will be receiving data streams of imagery and movies from what the external center of consciousness is observing.

You may naturally think "This is freekin' crazy! Pure imagination, that's all." But I encourage you to not judge or label anything that appears in your awareness ... just let all the imagery come and go, come and go, come and go. Be neutral. You don't have to believe it ... and you don't have to not believe it.

If you practice this enough, you will see that the visual streams being received from the external center of consciousness, are getting brighter and clearer. Believe me: these streams of awareness have the ability to eventually become crystal clear ... as if you are bright and wide-awake, looking around, above your physical body and using your actual physical eye.

The next step is to get your dominant Presence into the center of consciousness that is outside your body. Experienced OBE'rs can instantly teleport their dominant Presence to an external location with absolute ease. Other people may have to consciously pull their dominant Presence out of their physical bodies and up into the functional center of awareness that is at the top of the room, or wherever.

A common technique is to imagine a rope made of silver light extending from the center of your body to the center of awareness that is at the top of the room. Then take your energetic hands and arms, and like you are climbing the rope, you take one hand and pull your energetic self up ... and then with the other hand, you put it farther up the rope and you pull your self up a little higher. Eventually you will get totally up and out of your body and be at the top of the room as a dominant center of full awareness. In the beginning, after arriving at the top of the room, I suggest that you not open your "eyes" right away ... but just float in bliss out of your body for minutes or more. Feel what its like ... and how good it is. Then slowly open your "eyes" and look around the room. Look down at your relaxed, meditating body.

For the first wide-awake excursions (knowing that you can repeat the process at will in the future) there is no need to go anywhere. You can just practice being out of your body and floating at the top of the room ... and then when you intuitively sense you are ready, return to the body -- it is as easy as can be. You return to your physical body as a dominant focus of awareness and you are fully present.

Once you are comfortable with this process, then you begin exploring the nature and abilities of your Presence when out of the body. You can see what it is like to go through physical walls ... go through the roof of your home, and outside to the physical world ... where you are hovering as a functional, wide-awake center of consciousness & Presence. When outside, I suggest that you fly to a nearby tree or favorite nearby natural place where you can be quiet ... so you can get use to being in this nonphysical conscious form.

In future excursions you will see that you have the ability to soar over your neighborhood, to nearby ecosystems, and even to other dimensions that can rightly be called "spiritual."

Meditation Techniques for Beginners

I am part of a family of Presences that use a meditation technique called Love. But this message has gotten so long, I will share this technique in another post in a few days.

If interested, here is a thread that I started on Silence & Love (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66477-I-fell-in-love-with-...&p=772043&viewfull=1#post772043).

24249

TraineeHuman

24th December 2013, 13:46

I gave a good test-drive to all techniques and their belief systems that came my way. I especially liked the open psychic spaces of Buddhist meditation, but found the male monks and their followers to be spiritually robotic in 3D space and not very much fun to be around. I still love their safron robes and all that ... but felt most of them to be lacking in true joy, expansive inner freedom, and without any assimilation of the energies, insights and mind-styles that are native to children and women. Still, when people ask me what type of spiritual thing I do, I often reply: "It's like Buddhism ... but with a hell of a lot more fun."

I've seen not only Buddhist monks who were, say, very ascetic and consequently not much fun, but many people, some of them also female, who've come from different traditions or systems or combinations of traditions etc. If they were Buddhists, surely they were contradicting the Buddha's middle way, which as we know says moderation in absolutely all things -- and there are strongish hints in that about the need for coming back to groundedness and practicality and true balance with the Whole, and all its parts, right now.

Another behavior which I'd consider misguided is to become a hermit, or semi-hermit, even maybe a homeless person, for a significant period. I've seen this happen with quite a few advanced "spiritual practitioners" or extremely aware people. Such people reach a point where they clearly see that interactively living in the everyday world and society requires them to tolerate and implicitly support various idiotic things. But total withdrawal certainly isn't what I see as true detachment. If you're detached enough it shouldn't really affect your cool whether actually you're in garbage and insanity or not. There are various shades of withdrawal, too. They can be useful for a certain period, for reasons analogous to how a baby plant can grow in a hothouse with a better chance of its survival. But it can be very tempting for a person to remain withdrawn. That can affect their confidence at doing certain things "in the world".

One of the difficulties with asceticism is that it can repress the inner child, put heavy weights on it. It so happens I used to have a Hitchhiker who had been a fourth century Chinese Ch'an Buddhist head monk. Everybody seems to have at least one Hitchhiker living right in their heart or the center of their personality. There's no point arguing or pretending that isn't real -- even if it's subtle. That Buddhist monk made it tough for me for a while to retrieve my inner child and some of the carefree aspects of my sense of playfulness. These are essential, though, because without them you're deprived of much of the pleasure of human-to-human communication. That monk was rather ascetic in various ways. It's quite a subtle skill just to become accurately and precisely aware of who a Hitchhiker inside you is. It also takes great detachment to remove such a Hitchhiker from yourself, or someone else. You can partly work out who the most dominant Hitchhiker deep inside you is by looking at feedback from other people. What do they see in you that you don't really see as "you"? That identity you're somewhat blind to, and that's maybe most of the time part of your shadow, that's what we're looking for.

Actually, my own research suggests that maybe over 50% of Hitchhikers are actually a person's own personalities from relatively recent past lifetimes.

That Chinese monk identity didn't know or understand that in our society it's necessary for a spiritually aware individual to save money or assets, particularly for their retirement. In fourth century Chinese culture, for a spiritually aware individual to have done so would have been hugely shameful and crooked. Because this monk identity was just the mental body, the personality, of a monk who had died in the fourth century and not the monk himself (not his HM), it had no capacity to fundamentally change the knowledge it had. It was frozen in time. To make matters worse, it was one of my past-life personalities, and therefore believed itself to be at least as expert regarding me, and what's good for me, as myself. Let me explain that as far as I know this is my first physical incarnation on this planet, But because I was such a newbie when I volunteered to come here, I adopted some "downloads" of others' past-life memories to serve as if they had been my own.

I got rid of the monk personality at ten a.m. one morning. I felt so tired I immediately had to sleep, and didn't wake up till six p.m. I had tickets for a theater performance that evening, went to that and returned home and slept till after mid-day the following day. That was how drained of energy my body and nervous system felt. Such tiredness isn't unusual, except in degree, after we successfully and suddenly release a major identity we've had which wasn't really us.

Some of you may have seen the astral or mental bodies of people who died centuries ago, and separated from. These bodies will often make themselves look just like their owner did. The mental body lives on for centuries before it even begins to decay. It contains quite a lot of life-energy for all that time, and a small amount of what we could call small "c" consciousness of a rather robotic variety.

That Chinese monk identity managed to retain at least some cords to my emotional, mental and physical bodies even after the separation. For that reason, I've done my best to avoid monk-like behavior. I don't want to invite him back in. This is a big deal. On the other hand, all the evidence available to me suggests that lengthy periods of many hours of meditation are quite necessary for one's continuing higher spiritual evolution. I usually only meditate for ten or fifeteen minutes per day, and usually that does bring a Silence deep enough to extend through the day. But at some point soon I need to put attention on how I've by now decided to have certain working values that are greatly different from that monk's in certain areas. And I've been inspired by your story, Teka, to take up meditation for an hour or more per day again, hopefully a little longer on weekends maybe.

Finally, I imagine that what you've said about some Buddhist males lacking a true heart connection would, in my terms, partly amount to or have connections with the following. The initial stage of the HM's descent normally involves its entry into the mid-head and throat chakras. But it's quite a further step before permanent descent into the heart center. That brings a great sense of direct intimacy with all other people and beings.

Joy_P

25th December 2013, 14:15

TH,

Have you ever met a personality who was originally created by a novelist? Someone in the astral told me they had been created as a character in a novel and they continued to exist afterwards. I wasn't sure if this was possible or not. Have you ever experienced this?

TraineeHuman

25th December 2013, 15:09

Joy, I understand the way most professional playwrights and novelists work is that they live as hermits or semi-hermits and create their characters in their heads. They do so in such detail that they imbue their characters with considerable life-force of their own. I understand many of them then get their characters to talk to them telepathically or "in their head", and in this way they write their material. It's also not uncommon for a professional fiction writer to seem obsessed or "possessed" by their characters.

There are certainly plenty of thought-and-emotion forms or entities in the astral that have been created by a living person or a group of such people. I avoid engaging with such entities at all if possible. So I'm not aware if any I've come across was a fiction writer's creation, though the astral is so full of entities I've certainly come across entities. They have much less life-force and awareness than a being.

Think of how when you go to to see a movie, sometimes you can get so engrossed in it maybe you forget it isn't reality until the movie ends and the lights come on.

TraineeHuman

26th December 2013, 00:47

For example: when you are walking on a path through the forest and loving it, your dominant awareness is focused "outside" to the beautiful trees, the path, the incredible smells of the woods, the twittering of the birds and so on. But when you are day dreaming or when you are having a dream while sleeping, your dominant awareness it totally focused in the inner worlds. You are not aware of the external worlds. And so you can see that your dominant awareness easily goes from the external physical world ... to the inside worlds of dreams and imagination. This movement of your dominant presence, from outside to inside, is absolutely effortless. It is an essential part of our basic everyday human nature.

But its also totally natural for your awareness and Presence to be in 2 places, simultaneously. For instance: all of us have been on a long boring road trip, and many times during the trip our awareness drifts off into wonderful daydreams, imaginative inner movies, memories of the past or plans for the future. Have you ever been so lost in your inner thoughts while driving ... that when you suddenly return to full awareness that you are driving on the highway ... you realize that you don't have a single memory of driving for the last couple miles? Yet ... you stayed safe on the road, passed cars, you were aware of other vehicles in front and behind, you might even of noticed some of the ecosystems beside the highway.

What actually happened in this situation is that your dominant awareness was indeed focused in the inner worlds of your day dreams ... but you intuitively had the street smarts to leave enough of your awareness out in the physical body-mind-eyes-and-ears, so that you could safely navigate the physical world, pass cars, go around curves, look behind, look forward and all that. You see: your awareness was actually in both locations simultaneously -- that's how you pulled it off. It is so natural and ordinary, that we aren't even aware that it's happening.

Now just imagine, this same process and natural ability of awareness has been happening throughout our lives, in all areas of our lives. Not only do we have parts of our awareness tuned-into the outside world and the inside worlds simultaneously ... we can also have multiple parts of our awareness outside our physical body at the same time, and all parts are functioning with consciousness ... aware of their surroundings ... and it's so absolutely easy and natural that most people don't have a clue that its happening.

For instance: most of the time we are not aware of our heart beating, or that we are breathing ... but those processes are happening quietly and simultaneously in the background of our awareness while we are going about our daily lives. Similarly: the ability of our Presence to send parts of its awareness to other locations, and all function quietly behind the scenes, doing their jobs with the greatest of ease ... well ... that's just an absolute normal, natural, common, and "no big deal" type of thing that we do. Most people are not aware of it, but it is happening all the same.

I consider the example of what happens when we're driving -- or breathing -- is extremely revealing about the nature of awareness generally. I certainly agree that when a person is driving they are primarily using their intuition or HM, even though in the interests of safety they also retain a sufficient degree of awareness of what's going on at a detailed physical level. And yes, the intuition, which keeps the driving on "automatic", is the dominant focus there much of the time. The problem as I see it is that for many people driving is one of the few situations where they ever make their intuition primary or dominant in a prolonged way. The fact that they don't do so in most other situations (in my view) is the whole problem, in a way. In this thread I've described that problem as the result of at least two factors. One is that most people live superficially instead of from an inner position. The second is that even if they learn to go deeper and therefore come from and be centered in what is inner, they don't stably bring higher level level realities, and in particular their Higher Mind, down into where they are and where they live in the physical, or they don't permanently hold them there. One of the obstacles causing the second difficulty is that most people haven't transformed the ego sufficiently and reduced its power to influence them negatively.

Unfortunately it's not enough just to tell people to use their intuition, or whatever you want to call it, in all situations, or to notice that it's already operating but they don't realize it is. For yourself and me and various individuals, it no doubt is always working. So it's very easy for us to look at what's happening for ourselves and say: "Oh look, it's so simple. Obviously the intuition is operating all the time and we have that Higher level switched on all the time, in addition to a more everyday level." While I appreciate the clarity and beauty of your post, and indeed all your posts, Teka, what I was trying to ask you about your journey was its beginning. You seem to be describing what's there at the destination, but what I think most members are concerned with is what's at or near the beginning, or only a relatively little way after the beginning, or certainly more what's closer to the beginning than to the destination.

Kalamos

26th December 2013, 03:59

..........

Highwhistler

26th December 2013, 11:46

...
Unfortunately it's not enough just to tell people to use their intuition, or whatever you want to call it, in all situations, or to notice that it's already operating but they don't realize it is.
...

I believe that you might be suggesting that I'm telling people what to do, or not telling them enough about what to do -- as suggested in your quote above.

But I never said that. Nor have my messages ever meant to transmit the message contained in your words, above.

My messages are simply and purely translations of my own, direct, first-hand experiences into words. Hence, I believe that you may of misunderstood my central intention that is at the foundation of the words, stories and meaning of my posts.

I am not telling people to do anything. I'm not telling any reader how they should do something, or how they should think about this or that, or even for them to use their natural abilities to a lesser or greater degree. I do not tell people how they should perceive themselves, or the right way to understand the Universe they are part of ... and I welcome them to not even believe anything that I share. I've never said "use their intuition, or whatever you want to call it, in all situations."

I'm definitely not a teacher or a guide for anyone.

I am no different than anyone and everyone. I'm the average person. We are on the same level -- living here and now in this magnificent intersection of awareness, worlds and dimensions, that I fondly call the "Multiverse." Essentially, we are the same. Basically, I am another you.

All that I do in my messages is share my direct first-hand experiences as best I can, and explain my points of view. That is all I'm doing and nothing more.

Please note that I most often say in each message, something like this: "You are more than welcome to have experiences and understandings that are 180-degrees different than mine. Whatever your experiences and points of view are -- they are equal to mine, they are as valid as mine ... and so thank you! I bow to you for sharing your spiritual life with us. Please know that I'm only talking from my first-hand experiences ... that is: whenever I use the words 'you' or 'we', they are only used as figures of speech to make my messages flow more poetically. We all know that I'm only talking about my experiences ... and I welcome everyone to have their own experiences, their own knowledge and their own wisdom. And, more than likely, your truths will be in a range that is a little different than mine ... or totally different than mine! ... and again: please know that I feel that your messages and truths are absolutely equal to mine."

Thank you for saying that my posts have clarity and are beautifully written.

And, I wholeheartedly welcome your observation and opinion that my messages are, as you say: "Unfortunately it's not enough." Thank you for that review.
.
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OK, let's turn this around. Please allow me to look at you and make suggestions. Here are my honest, heart-felt opinion, reviews, requests and suggestions for YOUR messages:
.

Your messages are whole and complete.

I would not add, edit or change a single word.

They are clear, insightful and also entertaining.

Thank you for generously sharing your experiences, time, energies with us, in the ways that you have chosen to do so.

Great job TraineeHuman! I encourage you to feel confident about your experiences, perceptions, understandings, your messages -- and please keep them coming! I really appreciate your unique Presence, here on Project Avalon.
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...................................................................................................
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...
What I was trying to ask you about your journey was its beginning. You seem to be describing what's there at the destination, but what I think most members are concerned with is what's at or near the beginning, or only a relatively little way after the beginning, or certainly more what's closer to the beginning than to the destination.
...

{NOTE: All the blue bold phrases in the paragraphs below are links. Click them if you want to learn more.}

I thought the request about "your journey in its beginning" was answered in this post from 5 days ago. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=775057&viewfull=1#post775057)

If you would like more information ... a more complete spiritual bio ... you can have it. My message from 5 days ago was a brief summary, of course.

In an expanded bio I may tell you the details about my journey in the US Air Force and getting kicked out for being a pacifist and troublemaker (example of spiritual courage). Building fortunes and families ... and losing them ... only to have new fortunes and families rise into my life, again (experiencing how all things in this world are temporary). I could tell you that during the first 18 years of my life, I was a hunter, fisherman, fur trapper and I killed thousands of animals ... and now I've been a vegetarian for over 40 years, a vegan for the last 2 decades (changing my life-style, thoughts, words and deeds to be more peaceful ... as compared to my earlier life).

I would mention the outstanding quality of my home-grown food (http://www.soulconnection.net/galleries_gardening.html) that allows my mind and heart to be at peace. I might share my mystic poetry (http://www.soulconnection.net/galleries_of_inspiration/poetry/quiet_thunder_of_the_heart.html) and soul stories (http://www.soulconnection.net/galleries_soul_stories.html), which may help some readers see deeper into my own spiritual journey ... and my sense that we truly are creating beauty together (http://www.soulconnection.net/about_teka_luttrell.html).

If I were to write a longer spiritual bio, I would probably share about being into water-fasting (one time for 30 days straight -- only consuming water & air for a month) which is spiritually illuminating. And during the 7 years that I owned a wholesale fresh juice manufacturing company, twice I "juice fasted" for 6 months straight, and 9 months straight another time (consuming no solid foods what-so-ever -- only fresh juices, which created by far the healthiest years of my entire life), and which certainly were spiritually uplifting things for me to do.

Finally, in the expanded bio I would mention how just living a normal life as I have, being thoughtful and meditating daily for 40 years ... is a form of self-psychotherapy that transformed my ego, the understanding of the so-called "shadow" aspects of Self, as well as generates empathy and the tone of equality with all beings, all ecosystems, all civilizations in the vast Multiverse of my experiences.

You can have those stories if you really want them. Just let me know ...

24265

TraineeHuman

28th December 2013, 09:10

I am not telling people to do anything. I'm not telling any reader how they should do something, or how they should think about this or that, or even for them to use their natural abilities to a lesser or greater degree. I do not tell people how they should perceive themselves, or the right way to understand the Universe they are part of ... and I welcome them to not even believe anything that I share. I've never said "use their intuition, or whatever you want to call it, in all situations."

I'm definitely not a teacher or a guide for anyone.

I am no different than anyone and everyone. I'm the average person. We are on the same level -- living here and now in this magnificent intersection of awareness, worlds and dimensions, that I fondly call the "Multiverse." Essentially, we are the same. Basically, I am another you.

All that I do in my messages is share my direct first-hand experiences as best I can, and explain my points of view. That is all I'm doing and nothing more.

Please note that I most often say in each message, something like this: "You are more than welcome to have experiences and understandings that are 180-degrees different than mine. Whatever your experiences and points of view are -- they are equal to mine, they are as valid as mine ... and so thank you! I bow to you for sharing your spiritual life with us. Please know that I'm only talking from my first-hand experiences ... that is: whenever I use the words 'you' or 'we', they are only used as figures of speech to make my messages flow more poetically. We all know that I'm only talking about my experiences ... and I welcome everyone to have their own experiences, their own knowledge and their own wisdom. And, more than likely, your truths will be in a range that is a little different than mine ... or totally different than mine! ... and again: please know that I feel that your messages and truths are absolutely equal to mine."

Yes, we all have our individual take on things. And yes, that's wonderful. Equally, though, by posting in a Forum such as this we're automatically having some level of influence on others -- even if the influence might be to prompt them to avoid you or disagree with you. Yes, it's totally up to the reader to decide for themselves whether or not a post could be partly or wholly "right" or "interesting" or "prompting enquiry" or whatever. But I'd point out we're still in a sense seeking to influence, in that we're in effect saying: "Try putting on the special type of glasses that come with this post." It may be largely irrelevant whether the poster is claiming to be "right" or "giving good advice" or whatever. And equally so if the poster makes the major kind of disclaimer as you like to do, that it's all strictly your own point of view only.

With all that understood, though, I'm not going to be at all inhibited about asserting things like: "In our Western culture and society most people don't overall live anywhere near inwardly enough, in the sense of being very aware of what's inner to them rather than only the superficial, exterior things." I've actually said something like that a number of times in this thread already. And added something like: "True, deep peace and ease only comes in the inner depths, initially. It's the only place in you that has the endurance never to give up, and never to be overcome by external distractions or discouragements." I don't stop to consider whether that's "teaching", or just stating what appears to be an extremely important fact. Because the truth -- our best shot at it -- should be shared. Even if it could be expressed better or more accurately, as long as it's pointing in the general direction of something important, that's enough for me.

You talk of how the reader simply needs to subtly shift their point of view, and they'll appreciate what you're saying. Well, points of view come from one of the formless worlds. They're quite subtle and light and can seem almost like nothing, on their own. But to truly shift one's point of view -- or to fully understand all its implications -- means to realize the new point of view physically, emotionally, mentally, to embody it, to live it. And that's a huge change. It's not just a matter of considering a new point of view, but of physically manifesting it in the flesh, significantly changing your life.

I thought the request about "your journey in its beginning" was answered in this post from 5 days ago. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=775057&viewfull=1#post775057)

If you would like more information ... a more complete spiritual bio ... you can have it. My message from 5 days ago was a brief summary, of course.

In an expanded bio I may tell you the details about my journey in the US Air Force and getting kicked out for being a pacifist and troublemaker (example of spiritual courage). Building fortunes and families ... and losing them ... only to have new fortunes and families rise into my life, again (experiencing how all things in this world are temporary). I could tell you that during the first 18 years of my life, I was a hunter, fisherman, fur trapper and I killed thousands of animals ... and now I've been a vegetarian for over 40 years, a vegan for the last 2 decades (changing my life-style, thoughts, words and deeds to be more peaceful ... as compared to my earlier life).

I would mention the outstanding quality of my home-grown food (http://www.soulconnection.net/galleries_gardening.html) that allows my mind and heart to be at peace. I might share my mystic poetry (http://www.soulconnection.net/galleries_of_inspiration/poetry/quiet_thunder_of_the_heart.html) and soul stories (http://www.soulconnection.net/galleries_soul_stories.html), which may help some readers see deeper into my own spiritual journey ... and my sense that we truly are creating beauty together (http://www.soulconnection.net/about_teka_luttrell.html).

If I were to write a longer spiritual bio, I would probably share about being into water-fasting (one time for 30 days straight -- only consuming water & air for a month) which is spiritually illuminating. And during the 7 years that I owned a wholesale fresh juice manufacturing company, twice I "juice fasted" for 6 months straight, and 9 months straight another time (consuming no solid foods what-so-ever -- only fresh juices, which created by far the healthiest years of my entire life), and which certainly were spiritually uplifting things for me to do.

Finally, in the expanded bio I would mention how just living a normal life as I have, being thoughtful and meditating daily for 40 years ... is a form of self-psychotherapy that transformed my ego, the understanding of the so-called "shadow" aspects of Self, as well as generates empathy and the tone of equality with all beings, all ecosystems, all civilizations in the vast Multiverse of my experiences.

You can have those stories if you really want them. Just let me know ...

The specific details of your personal history are of course largely irrelevant, when it's all said and done. All that is important is your essence. Still, I'm sure some of us will greatly enjoy reading your kindly provided soul stories and mystic poems, and they'll help us appreciate your essence in a slightly different way.

In my life, the pursuit of the evolution of consciousness, and all that implies, has for decades been something I've always pursued as if my life depended on it. And it did, and does. I guess the only details that are important are things like that. In the past I've gone through ever so long periods of failure or apparent lack of tangible results, in the work of evolutionary self-development, for so long and in so many shades of ways. Like some sort of long-distance runner. So I believe it does help members to know that you went on, say, a juice fast, consuming nothing but fresh juice (and water?) for nine full months. Or that you've meditated three whole hours every day for forty years. And still managed to create and run your own thriving businesses, raised some kids, often successfully pursued a number of different careers/professions, and so on. Need I say anything about what kind of endurance and passion and dedication it must have taken to keep meditating for three full hours every day through all that? Yes, I do consider there's some kind of "lesson" here: that to achieve even the beginnings of spiritual liberation requires utterly total commitment such as this. As one of the characters says in Through the Looking Glass -- or was that Alice in Wonderland? -- : first you have to eat all your spinach, and only then can you have the dessert. That's been in quite a few ways the story of my own life and my own spiritual journey. More recently there's been an abundance of dessert. It can happen, folks.

Highwhistler

28th December 2013, 10:35

With all that understood, though, I'm not going to be at all inhibited about asserting things like ...

Excellent! Thank you. You're doing a great job. Remember in my review of your messages I said something like:

"I would not add, edit or change a single word of yours ... and I encourage you to feel confident about your experiences, perceptions, understandings, your messages -- please keep them coming!"

You talk of how the reader simply needs to subtly shift their point of view, and they'll appreciate what you're saying.

Again, just to be clear: I don't talk about how the reader needs to do anything.

I don't give advice to anyone.

I'm only sharing my first-hand experiences and points of view.

The pace, direction, the twist and turns of a reader's spiritual evolution is none of my business.

Besides, I trust that their soul-essence is infinitely more wise and knowledgeable than me in offering guidance to the aspects of themselves here in the so-called "physical world."

24286

TraineeHuman

31st December 2013, 01:37

Do we or can we see ourselves -- or begin to see ourselves -- as a hologram of Source or the Divine Mind, as Teka says? I could provide a lengthy argument that would look at what really is spiritual evolution and how could it even be possible; and from that argument I'd conclude that we must all be eternal, infinite Beings who at their core had and have infinite self-knowledge but suddenly decided to go on the ultimate trip. That trip was into the darkness of dwelling partly in unconsciousness, in fact mostly in unconsciousness at first -- at first (before reaching the human level of consciousness and life) even without a clear notion of individuality. The ultimate and the longest possible roller coaster ride -- except that mostly it just keeps going up, and it no doubt usually takes millenia or even much longer before it's finished.

That argument I could provide would partly be based on the idea that how could we develop into something higher without already having the spark and the reality of something higher buried somewhere deep inside us. The only alternative would be that something higher keeps in effect donating part of itself to us, to pull us upwards and transform everything we are. In this post I won't go into the details of why that alternative couldn't be possible. Rather, I'd prefer to challenge the reader to experience Source, ideally, or at least something infinite or more resembling the cosmic -- which would mean the HM. Can you experience at least a glimpse, or an undeniable hint, that somehow there really is an entire universe inside of little old you, as Teka suggests? You can do this through astral projection if you manage to begin to be aware of who it is that is ultimately doing the projecting. Or you can do it by meditating an hour or more per day for probably a few months, or maybe longer if necessary. Preferably you'll continue doing that anyway, of course.

And so we see that Source, the infinite true "I" behind and beyond the "I", expresses itself in an individual existence -- yours. You are a part of the hologram of Source. Absolutely all your consciousness of the universe or anything that is exists within your individual consciousness,or currently seems to. (By the way, that point is part of the argument that refutes the alternative I mentioned above.) That's why your individual consciousness (if you can see all that's there) is a smaller copy of the entire whole -- of Source itself. Source is both personal -- in the sense of taking on individual existences -- and impersonal, at the same time. That's how holograms work.

And neither the whole Multiverse nor all the individual consciousnesses seem to be all there is. Source, being present in and sustaining and containing both, is beyond even that, it seems. Maybe in some sense it's like the projector that creates the hologram.

jounai

31st December 2013, 16:45

Highwhistler

31st December 2013, 21:04

What we call the "physical mind" and the "higher mind" are the same thing reflecting itself as different aspects. The physical mind is an idea crystallized as a person or a presence, most humans experiencing the idea of a person. The higher mind can be seen as the foundation energy or material which everything exist in, including the physical mind matrix. However the physical mind and the higher mind is the same thing, the same being, which means that when the being experience one thing on a physical level that will be reflected on the higher mind's level. As below so above. :)
The funny thing is that every human being is both the physical mind and the higher mind at once which may seem strange as the higher mind is everything. This means that everything contains other everythings. Eh, okay that sound strange. :twitch:

Anyone which to reflect on the ideas I shared here? Haha, I don't know if it is appropriate to take this further...what do you think? :flame:
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Thank you, Jounsi, for bringing that up.

I call what you are talking about:

Simultaneous Multiple Realities

For instance:
.
You are singular
and you are a collective
simultaneously

You exist
and you do not exist
simultaneously

You are real
and you are imagined
simultaneously

You are
and you are not
simultaneously

You talk out loud
and there is silence underneath the sound
simultaneously

You are physical
and non-physical
simultaneously

You are here,
and you are there
simultaneously

A courageous hero to some cultures
is a cowardly terrorist to other cultures
simultaneously

Your mind thinks these things to be impossible
but your Presence knows them to be true
simultaneously
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These symbolic representations above reflect the understanding of Simultaneous Multiple Realities that are known to be the status quo, ordinary, normal, no big deal, natural & true to the most central part of you -- your center-most identity -- the soul-essence Presence reading this message.

24322

TraineeHuman

1st January 2014, 01:31

For any of those who are presently still working on learning to astral project more easily, or at all, I'd like to quote two pages from a book called The Astral Codex that's available as a free download from the site www.belsebuub.com
While I don't agree with maybe 10% of the contents, the book does go into what I would consider some useful details. The extract is taken pretty much at random:

"...Once you relax, concentrate on the exercise without paying attention to the sensations that are happening. When your body felt like it was sideways even though you were lying on your back, your astral body had already split. This was your astral body moving, although other parts of the astral body can also move separately from the physical body. Next time, slowly get up from bed, and then you can find yourself in the astral plane. You were not doing anything wrong— you were very close. As far as dietary precautions go, the main thing is not to eat a heavy meal before you sleep or try to astral project.

Sometimes, when trying the exercise, I start feeling a heaviness and I start feeling as if I am being tilted in a circular motion and feel dizzy. I can carry on, but I have never got beyond this and I never feel as if I have fallen asleep. Am I doing the exercise correctly?

If you feel as though you are being tilted and are moving in a circular motion and this is quite noticeable, you can try slowly getting up from the bed to see if you are in the astral world, because you may just catch the moment after you have split. But if you are not quite there, it’s important to concentrate on the exercise you’re doing— the focusing of the mind will bring about the split.

Can you concentrate on breathing for astral projection? Because sometimes breathing blocks the feeling of the heart beating.

Yes, you can use concentration on the breath to astral project with; many people have had success with it, but don’t mix the two (concentration on the breath and concentration on the heart). If you’re concentrating on the heart, forget about the breathing— let it go on normally and just stay with the heart. You can also concentrate on the breathing alone as an exercise, but remember to stick to it. Don’t switch between it and the heart or anything else, or you may spoil the exercise.

I tried relaxing my body. The heartbeat was there and I could feel my heartbeat even shake the bed in rhythm, but when I tried to project there was nothing. Are we asleep when this happens or are we in that in-between stage of sleep and awake?

You’re getting close, but if you’re not relaxed enough, you won’t be able to sleep, while sleep is needed for projection (watch you don’t get emotionally involved either, with tension for example). Make sure you carry out the relaxation exercise firstly. Then concentrate on the heartbeat, but relax into it. Try also to visualize the heart a bit more when you do it. You may find that other exercises like mantras help you to relax more into the projection, until you learn more about how it works. Don’t give up on the heartbeat though, because with a bit more practice you could get somewhere with it. It can take a lot of patience and persistence to get it right. When you felt your heartbeat shake the bed in rhythm you were in the in-between stage of sleep and wakefulness , when the splitting of the astral and physical bodies takes place, but as soon as a projection happens, the physical body is asleep."

Belsebuub. The Astral Codex: Out-of-Body Experiences and Lucid Dreaming for Spiritual Knowledge (Kindle Locations 1040-1053). Mystical Life Publications Ltd.

TraineeHuman

4th January 2014, 13:37

jounai has evidently reached the point where the Higher Mind has descended quite fully into the physical. No doubt Teka will have done that as well. At such a point, the HM and the ordinary physical mind will be operating in tandem very harmoniously all the time, or almost all the time. When I say "in tandem", that means the physical mind will largely be operating as the faithful servant of the HM. Let me elaborate a little.

The HM doesn't live in a world of polarities. At least, that is, it doesn't see or experience polarities "in black-or-white (and preferably no shades of grey)", at all. It literally sees the world, the Universe, quite differently. Let's take a number of examples of issues: say, death, individuality (versus Oneness), evil, suffering, and rejection/loneliness. How does the HM "de-negativize" these? How does it eliminate the jarring antagonism towards the opposite polarity that polarity implies?

Regarding death, I wonder is it even necessary for me to point out that death, at various levels and degrees, is quite inseparable form the essence and the process of life? Like breathing in and breathing out. And that our physical death is (normally) simply a rebirth into a new life, on a higher, more pleasant and powerful plane? Our physical death is just one more changeover in the eternity of our immortal journey.

Regarding loneliness, I would say that loneliness is nothing but a fiction we get conditioned into giving teeth to. The HM enables you to begin to be aware of Oneness as a "tangible" reality. There you see the fact that you are certainly never alone in the universe. If you can truly have the entire Universe, why settle for or be in need of anything less?

The "knowledge of good and evil" the book of Genesis was talking about is no doubt the HM's knowledge. Never mind about eating apples, or pomegranates. The HM's knowledge provides us with at least the beginnings of the fruit of Source, of the Divine or universal or timeless, and of that which is certainly not in a fallen state.

To the HM and all that's Higher still, all opposites, including that between good and evil and that of suffering versus happiness, are reconciled or, rather, transcended. All the dark aspects -- pain, evil, death, limitation, and so on -- are seen ultimately as paper tigers. That's because the HM integrates them into a bigger picture. One in which they're needed, in certain ways and contexts, in worlds such as the physical. I realize this sounds like gigantic optimism and idealism. "To dream the impossible dream," supposedly -- but it's "impossible" for the physical mind to understand. Meanwhile the experience of all mystics is that the deeper, truer reality is indeed very, very "optimistic".

That doesn't mean, of course, that we should drop out and live as hermits. Because we find ourselves in this world of duality, of polarities, we effectively have an obligation -- unless we're somehow very stingy -- to share some of the HM's opposites-resolving light wherever possible.

Strictly speaking, the Divine Mind doesn't reconcile opposites, by the way. rather, it transforms them into something harmonious. Something that totally wipes out all the conflict that made them be opposites.

And while we're on the subject of mind and polarities, consider the following. A big problem, for those who haven't integrated properly with the HM as yet, is: what to do with reason/intellect, or so-called rationality? For instance, consider how the most basic so-called law of, and underlying, reason is the law of consistency. Unfortunately, reality often -- very, very often -- behaves inconsistently. In an attempt to cope with that fact and still claim to keep to rationality, scientists and others talk of probabilities. They claim there still appears to be consistency among different possibilities of things. But I would point out, for instance, that the whole idea of mere probability contradicts that of strict consistency. And the only true consistency is strict consistency, is it not?

Similarly, the other of the very most basic laws and foundations of reason is the principle of (non-) contradiction. But let's take, say, the apparent contradiction between individuality and universality. According to reason, with any two opposites like this it's strictly either or, but never both. Well, I would say, on the contrary, that with individuality and universality it's "both and". It so happens that two opposites don't somehow usually cancel each other out if they're both present. Rather, they're a little like mirror images of each other -- just reversals of each other. Very alike, in certain ways. The opposites of, say, black and white don't wipe each other out. Taken together, they illustrate shading, and also contrast, and depth. For instance, a black and white (and grey) photo shows both of these opposites. And the opposition between black and white is what makes the photo interesting and useful and accurate.

What to do with reason, then? Reason is what distinguishes humans from the animals, and seems to promise so much. Truth. Exposure of errors. Ideals. The physical mind is not useless. The only trouble is, it wants to be Source. And yet it clearly sees this can never be. It dreams of eliminating unsatisfied desire -- through "totally" satisfying it, "this time". It marshalls all the senses and the body to defy death, even to defy and indeed avoid physical pain wherever possible. But the physical mind -- by itself, without the HM such as the way jounai has it -- is very short-sighted. It can never see beyond the immediate facts to the deeper potential that's yet to be fully realized. It has no imagination, at all. And it is incessantly jumping from one extreme to yet another, never finding balance.

Can you transcend death, and suffering? Can you find the Universe, the All, in the individual? Can you master your limitations sufficiently to see the clear horizon that comes into view when you put them all aside? Gaia is patiently waiting, and ever laboring, to give birth to that.

TraineeHuman

5th January 2014, 02:34

In any OB experience -- by which I mean to include meditation and any experience of any higher plane -- we can take one of two (well, more than two) attitudes. We can either attempt to consider what we're experiencing as some (higher) kind of "matter", or as "energy". Basically this is to view reality as being like or as the world of blind "forces" that Newton's classical physics saw reality as being made of.

There's another way -- well, among several others -- to view what you experience. This is to see everything as being ultimately yourself, even if you don't clearly see how the real inner you is pulling all the strings. That's how the HM sees everything that people would describe as "the world out there". Once you've fully activated your HM, you'll begin to see this at times. Instinctively you'll know it, but all your conditioning will continue to work hard to keep you from consciously seeing it most of the time. It may well take, say, twenty or thirty years of meditation before you completely break through that.

Interestingly, quantum physicists discovered long ago that it was absolutely necessary for them not to think about, or have conscious wishes or feelings about, a quantum physics experiment, while that experiment was going on. Why? Because they found that this affected the results of the experiment itself. They had experimentally proved that you are actually part of the world "out there". Not that many of them would be willing to be quite that honest -- except for most of the greatest physicists, who made all the discoveries, that is. Plus Tom Campbell, for instance.

What if the real, true you is infinite and indivisible and in all things? What if that true, deeper "I" is simply playing with all the surface things we see, in the most exhilirating shell game in the Multiverse? What if the Multiverse is made not out of atoms, but of the incredible joy of being alive, of being conscious -- of one's Self?

TraineeHuman

6th January 2014, 13:03

What kinds of worlds are there beyond the mental levels? Early in this thread I've said that these are where I prefer to visit, whenever I can. I'd like to say just a little more about what they're like. I also mentioned that one doesn't use any kind of higher "body" to go there. As Teka says, one is simply there in an instant. This post may also hopefully shed a little more light for people regarding what "quantum" phenomena are really about.

In the worlds of Source, one of the things that stood out for me was (and still stands out) that what I -- and everyone else -- is, in essence, is absolutely nothing like an object in any way -- or anything like what philosophers call a "substance" -- which until the twentieth century was what Western thought (including all the nineteenth century Western esoteric schools, such as everything Mark Passio talks about, and so on) and Western philosophy had assumed at step one that everything real was an instance of. My problem has always been, how to begin to describe this deeper, truer reality to anyone else? Even to myself? How do you negate what others -- in the West, that is -- uncritically assume to be the most basic concept of all, and explain that it's ultimately an unreal and inadequate concept? How do you explain that it's just a concept, and the ground under their feet won't collapse if they let go of it? The following is very much just a partial attempt.

I'd like to invite you to throw away all your suppositions about what pure mathematics is or is like. Instead, please let me describe some things about it. I do happen to be very, very well informed in this area. For instance, I used to personally know two internationally eminent Chairmen of Mathematics departments who both liked to talk about how pure mathematics is in essence a fine art and not a science at all. Yes, I appreciate that statistics and the application of quantitative approaches are usually dehumanizing and are used for things like workforce rationalization, and worse. But I would argue that many such things are a perversion of Nature and of the true essence of mathematics. The essence of mathematics is qualitative, not quantitative. Let me explain a little.

But please, if possible, put aside your preconceptions first, just while you're reading this post. Please read it and try to absorb its own logic and point of view. Later, feel free to go back to whatever else. Not that anything at all that I'm saying isn't generally known as the truth, either to professional philosophers or else (and that's only a few things I'll say) to mystics.

Pure mathematics is simply the intellectual investigation of that which is the most universal. You may think it starts from and with the counting numbers: one, two, three, and so on. (By the way, pure mathematicians continue that sequence to infinity. It's the simplest, the "smallest" kind of infinity, to any pure mathematician.) Well, pure mathematics isn't exactly about the counting numbers. If you read about the foundations of mathematics, you'll find it's ultimately about what are known as relations, or (formless) variables representing them, and also about functions. A relation is simply any connection, between one or more items with one or more (usually, other) items. It doesn't include the items themselves, though. A function is just a many-to-one connection, i.e. it's just one special kind of relation. So, pure mathematics treats these (sometimes, in fact usually, formless, or, if you like, indefinite, indeterminate) gossamer "webs" as the (only) ultimate reality. And it so happens that this closely corresponds to what many mystics experience as the ultimate reality -- pure connectedness, without anything else. Pure mathematics isn't primarily interested in the properties of constants at all, and regards the whole idea of constants as a derivative one -- if you like, as implicitly unreal in an ultimate sense.

Also, I'd like to explain that in the world of professional philosophy, since around the early 1970s it's become accepted that what's known as "comparative philosophy" is one of the four or so varieties of contemporary philosophy that's more sophisticated and advanced than any of the philosophical schools or worldviews that went before, in the West. "Comparative" philosophy is that branch of philosophy that seeks to understand and discuss ancient Chinese and ancient Indian philosophy. It's well understood and appreciated by philosophers that the "level" of the best of the philosophizing and conceptualizing in those ancient philosophies was generally at least the equal of anything in contemporary Western philosophy. They are therefore clearly much more sophisticated -- to any professional philosopher -- than, say, the eighteenth century philosophy of Leibniz.

Leibniz's philosophy was the philosophical system of "monads". It's true that Leibniz was the Head of the German Masons and also probably the leading philosopher and mathematician of his day. However, as far as I've seen so far, perhaps the most philosophically sophisticated thing in Hylozoics is the theory of monads, apparently taken almost unchanged from Leibniz. Similarly, Alice Bailey (or was it Alice in collaboration with Blavatsky?) incorporated much of Leibniz's theory of monads into theosophy -- as if it were "the truth". But it was only Leibniz's philosophy, and as I say, by the later twentieth century we had things in philosophy that were incomparably, well, better than that. Professional philosophers agree these would ultimately win any argument with a proponent of Leibniz's philosophy.

I've mentioned that to try to make it clearer that the best of ancient Indian philosophy was superior to any of the various nineteenth century esoteric systems. Ancient Indian philosophy went through centuries of extremely sophisticated and insightful agonizing over what is the true relationship between "subject" and "object". Their conclusion: what's ultimately real is the relation between subject and object, but neither any subject nor any object. It follows that a person won't be truly spiritually enlightened, or certainly not have achieved spiritual liberation, unless they can let go of seeing themselves as either a "subject" or an "object". Back to pure relation again.

One last side note. Another thing which had become clear in the world of philosophy last century is that language is never neutral or passive. This means that your choice of language, or of your conceptual framework, has a big effect on what you're actually able to "see". It's a little like the way the South and Central American Indians weren't initially able to see the Spanish galleons. This makes things harder for mystics, because to others they may seem to speak a different language. And by the way, it's no accident that quantum physics is in many ways based on "probabilities" -- for which, I suggest, read infinities -- that only the language of mathematics makes it possible for us to see as being present.

TraineeHuman

9th January 2014, 00:36

You can see why the notion of "object" or "substance" doesn't work as the cornerstone of reality, or as the most basic concept of all, by considering arguments such as the following. This follows on from my previous post.

Let's say you have a sock (or it could be anything else -- say, a yacht) and you keep sewing patches on it to cover up holes. Let's say eventually there are so many patches that none of the original material is left. Is it still the same sock? If it's now a different sock, at what point did it become a different one? And what if you somehow managed to gather all the material from the original sock and quite imperfectly re-created the sock out of that material? And what about, for instance, various other borderline situations: at what point of alteration or transformation does the sock stop being a sock? By looking at questions like these, philosophers have worked out that the very concept of "object" or "substance" is inadequate to describe reality fully. Hence not all of reality can be an object, or a substance.

And so, for example, I don't ultimately see a "body" as something more than a mirage. That puts a whole different slant on how I see astral bodies and mental bodies. And then beyond those, I've talked of being "bodiless" -- but that doesn't involve ceasing to be real. On the contrary, it involves existing in closer connection with Source.

TraineeHuman

12th January 2014, 03:51

In general, in my own experience and observation, a person's inner spiritual progress doesn't depend on their circumstances, their parents, their occupation, their gender, their ethnicity, their socioeconomic category, their theoretical knowledge/understanding of metaphysical things (well, not hugely on that), or whatever. It does depend greatly on how the individual responds to or views all these external things. Call it attitude. Call it perception or point(s) of view -- as in: "What you (choose to) see -- or what you're most able to see -- is what you get."

One of the key ingredients in success at this is inwardly staying "cool", at ease, unperturbed at a deeper level. It takes a strong commitment, a quiet but truly firm determination or intention. Determination from the individual that they will somehow remain in that still place, the still point of their turning world, regardless of what crops up -- disaster, failure, illness, death, wealth.

All this is fully relevant, I believe and have found, to achieving success in astral travel or meditation or being in one's intuition -- it's fully relevant to any of these. Such inner stillness can go through many bumps on an external level, for a very long time indeed. For instance, I once went through five years or so where I made the mistake of often going deadpan in social situations whenever someone was being (what I considered to be) too negative. I did that because I was of course staying with a more detached, inwardly calm level of reality. This was during the period when I would go astral traveling, then mental traveling, each night, and also several years after that time. I had a spiritual "teacher" -- mostly at nonverbal or energetic/mental/intuitive levels of skill and communication, that is. (He wasn't really a teacher because I would only take advice from anyone rather than unquestioningly accept what they said.) This person kept suggesting I need to play the game of "being willing to be a bit of a bastard", in situations where others were engaging ion bastardry towards myself. I should mention that over here in Australian culture, particularly back then, the word "bastard" probably had milder connotations than in other countries' cultures. The "teacher" used to emphasize that it was simply a matter of showing the other that I was willing, rather than actually carrying out any negative behavior to (detachedly) play them at their current level. I guess this did eventually help me to learn how to retain my inner cool without needing to deadpan others any longer. I simply learned to play their game with detachment, without letting myself be shocked or provoked into reacting to the negativity. But it took a few years at least before I got that anything near finetuned. In a sense, you no longer get sucked "outwards" into getting lost in the superficial reality -- without losing your vulnerability of caring about others. It's also important to consciously feel and see more and more that's false as not being a part of who you truly are.

Another example, among many, of a trap I fell into was the following. It took me around 30 plus years before I realized I was in it. because I was in touch with something higher, I naturally tended to smile a lot, genuine smiles. But when someone saw me smile, they would often jump to the conclusion that I was generous and very tolerant. Unfortunately, this led some individuals to conclude that they could defraud me, misrepresent me, steal from me, or do various kinds of exploitative things, and that I would be too tolerant and forgiving to assert my rights. They were wrong about the latter point, but that didn't stop quite a number from trying, and sometimes being successful. I developed at least one sub-personality in early childhood that attempted to counter this, and the deadpanning was just one extension of this, but all that still wasn't enough. After thirty or forty years or more, I eventually took grip of the issue and, for example, learnt how to put on a slight frown in various situations, such as negotiations.

In astral travel, let's say you have truly learnt to persist in staying inwardly "cool" as described earlier above. Then if you should find yourself encountering some negative or deceptive being or entity, you'll have taken away their power to play you for a victim in any way, at all.

In that inner peace, there is room for higher feelings, higher thoughts, and especially (higher) intuitions to come and flourish, to co-habit with the peace. The peace brings greater truth, greater insights into your thoughts and feelings and actions. You can also say that inner peace is consciousness itself -- at least, the consciousness of and from the HM. It's like an endless spring out of which waters of life keep bubbling. Even if you believe you don't have the HM stable in you, if you can first commit to holding the stillness inside, then whenever you're doing that, you have it. The rest will come with time, with your active practice. Of course it may take several years or more to perfect.

TraineeHuman

16th January 2014, 05:43

Why is the inner silence so crucial? And how does it lead to further things? In this post I'd like to say a little more regarding these questions. Firstly, that silence, or Stillness, is the very foundation of all the dimensions higher than the mental. It's their very "air", so to speak, or the "Matter" -- dare I say "spirit" -- out of which they arise.

The inner silence doesn't mean, for example, that we stop using thoughts altogether. However, the thoughts which come out of our inner silence are always much deeper. The knowledge that comes out of it is much truer knowledge. I guess I should also emphasize that how deep our inner silence is is a matter of degree, that may take many years to reach its ultimate depth. Never mind. The same principles still apply, pretty much, though less strongly at first. Those deeper thoughts are the way they are because they come from dimensions higher than the mental. They come down into the mental plane (or they wouldn't exist as thoughts). But they have the capacity to turn into real, living activities or creations or forms of life, and helpful and useful, and true to the situation they come into, and solving the problems there. Because they have come down from a higher level;, they have greater power. They're not superficial.

More important always than the all the thoughts is the Stillness, the inner peace. This needs to eventually become so strong that it even in some way breaks into and takes over the surface, such as in all your conversations with others. The best way to develop the strength, the intensity of that inner peace seems to be meditation and a very strong intention, mostly. But once you get that peace to be deep enough, all forms of psychotherapy become less relevant, or maybe even quite irrelevant. At least in the sense, that is, that there is no longer any need to look for your negative points! Nor is there any need to fear any negative entities or archontic beings or supposedly negative ETs in the astral or mental realms. You get an embarrassment of riches, and overflow of positivity that leaves you with far less time to be bothered by negativity or triviality. We have seen intimations of this theme quite a lot in most of Teka's posts. Once the inner peace is really strong, nothing can really get to you any more, dare I say.

Another thing that happens is that as we grow stronger and stronger in peace, we usually don't recognize just how much stronger we've actually grown. It may be more apparent to people around us. We tend to wrongly suppose we're still the same old us, and we'll cling to old habits like old clothes until eventually a habit or two falls apart because it can't cling to the new us any more.

That inner peace gradually takes possession of you. The more it does, the more you'll become able to receive from above. And there is so much to receive. Creativity,including practical creativity, where without consciously trying so much, you become an influence for changes for the good at your workplace and in your family and among your friends. Not just creativity, but joy, even bliss. Now you find joy in everything, under every stone, in every corner; and this joy involves a permanent freedom from restlessness, from discontent. For the first time, you find true equilibrium. This means the ability to not react in any situation, but to remain unmoved and treat all situations equally. The inner peace is also a fertile soil or source of true knowledge of an intuitive kind -- seeing the inside of all things and beings. It is also a wellspring of extraordinary inner energy, of a dynamic inner strength that nothing can stop. It's like if you try to pull a cork floating in water down: the instant you let go of it, it pops straight back up to the top again.

All this takes time to develop. It happens degree by degree. You can't rush it or fast-track it. You can't be over-eager. You have to remain steady, staying with and bearing more and more peace.

TraineeHuman

19th January 2014, 01:35

If time is an illusion, how could we be so wrong about something we seem to experience? If time -- as we think we know it --is purely an illusion then what else is? How much more of what we take as reality could be pure 100% absolute illusion? I'm speaking of the time of the physicists.That's also the time we're conditioned to take as "rock solid" reality. That is indeed an illusion. We know this to be a fact. All philosophers and many physicists, for example, are today aware that this is absolutely a fact.

No physicist has ever been able to tell anyone what time actually is -- in the false sense of time that I'm speaking of so far . Relativity theory, for example, proved that the illusory time -- if you take it as real -- runs at different rates, and is at least slightly intertwined with space. It depends on you -- even an object -- because it depends on the speed you're moving at. It's not completely independent of you after all.

I've mentioned a few times that in all the dimensions beyond the mental we experience being "beyond time" in the sense of time we're used to. But the only true time is the eternal (ever changing and unfolding) Now. So, really what we experience in those dimensions is the same as what we're really actually experiencing even in the physical world when we're not OB. The trouble is, while we're in the physical we usually only see a tiny slice of the total Now. We need -- at least while we're learning -- to withdraw from all the physical distractions -- all our physical senses -- to see more than just one tiny slice of the Now.

TraineeHuman

20th January 2014, 00:32

How do deeper levels of reality differ from the physical reality, you may wonder. One aspect is that in certain higher dimensions one only experiences (or is) the general instead of the specific. I don't mean the concept of something more general, but the actuality of it.

The physical world, and our confinement to a body and our having to contend with all the details that entails, is part of Source's plan. The physical is like the finger of God. It's something that's necessary for us to be able to emerge, to flower and expand. As I see it, we can only become free of having to reincarnate in the physical if we can come to see the general as being continually present in the specific details of our life in the physical. Only while we're down here immersed in the particularity, the details, can we see both the details and the general (such as the Oneness that actively holds everything together), see them at the same time and see them interacting. As Wordsworth put it: "to see a world in a grain of sand". This is the promise of Life. It's what all living things in the physical world are ultimately striving towards. And only by deeply seeing how both the Oneness and the limitations are totally intertwined with each other can we attain freedom from reincarnation -- if we'll even want that, at that stage.

It seems as if Life itself is constantly battling against the inertia and the entropy of the physical world, and ultimately losing that battle to our physical death. When someone activates their Higher Mind, their true consciousness, the gap initially seems even greater. But as we progress in consciousness we eventually come to see that that battle, that defeat is only an illusory one. Actually we aren't some kind of remote outpost of Life because we are here in the one of the densest locations/conditions in the universe. We're at the cutting edge of many things. Somehow we're transforming the world of physical matter into something that very, very very slowly will turn into a part of Source. Once that happens, this will presumably be the most exciting place/condition of all. It will combine the general and even the universal with the specific in the most exhilarating and powerful way, with everything somehow transformed into pure Spirit.

Joe Akulis

20th January 2014, 17:44

Actually we aren't some kind of remote outpost of Life because we are here in the one of the densest locations/conditions in the universe. We're at the cutting edge of many things. Somehow we're transforming the world of physical matter into something that very, very very slowly will turn into a part of Source. Once that happens, this will presumably be the most exciting place/condition of all. It will combine the general and even the universal with the specific in the most exhilarating and powerful way, with everything somehow transformed into pure Spirit.

Beautiful words, TH. You echo my hopes for this place. There is such potential here. Individuality, if protected somehow from this tendency to lose touch with our true selves, and with our creator, can be a very addictive way to express ourselves and to interact, and to share.

But there is quite a bit of maturity to be achieved yet, in my opinion. Not enough people in my part of the world are even aware yet that there is a conversation about ego that needs to happen. What is it. How does it rule us. How to recognize and move away from its influence. It's not enough to be someone who wants to "avoid drama" if you don't have a decent understanding of ego, in my opinion. But not many people on this continent seem to be giving any thought to things like this yet. And until we do, the rest of the fruits of this potential paradise here would simply be misused, or misdirected.

After that, I think people need to have a conversation about what true freedom means. But if we haven't made those strides toward management of ego, and towards finding the inner peace that you spoke of above, then talk of real freedom would not bring us to its full understanding.

I have a feeling that many other regions of the world are moving in this direction a lot better than mine right now, but it is still enjoyable to be along for the ride here, and to consciously observe our progress and to help when I can.

Much love to you all,
Seeker

TraineeHuman

20th January 2014, 21:23

there is quite a bit of maturity to be achieved yet, in my opinion. Not enough people in my part of the world are even aware yet that there is a conversation about ego that needs to happen. What is it. How does it rule us. How to recognize and move away from its influence. It's not enough to be someone who wants to "avoid drama" if you don't have a decent understanding of ego, in my opinion. But not many people on this continent seem to be giving any thought to things like this yet. And until we do, the rest of the fruits of this potential paradise here would simply be misused, or misdirected.

After that, I think people need to have a conversation about what true freedom means. But if we haven't made those strides toward management of ego, and towards finding the inner peace that you spoke of above, then talk of real freedom would not bring us to its full understanding.

I have a feeling that many other regions of the world are moving in this direction a lot better than mine right now, but it is still enjoyable to be along for the ride here, and to consciously observe our progress and to help when I can.

I would say it's a matter of us behaving much more sanely, and then others around us will automatically be influenced to want to transform their ego. Others know deep inside that most of the time they've lost touch with the truer them, which is the HM. That's why they behave not as their true selves but instead they're insecure, frustrated, lonely, defensive, and feeling unloved inside, or unfairly done by. All that (emotional) suffering in their life is just the very, very, very slow and gradual falling away of their escapism -- of their becoming conscious that there is no escape other than to face ordinary life and live it consciously and even love it. It's simple if one can surrender to that, but granted, most people don't -- which means they're doing it the hard way, the very gradual way.

It's amazing how much we influence others around us by our example, even if they may not always show any sign that they've been influenced. I'd say the ego needs to be transformed rather than "killed".

Also, the root of the ego is fear. It's not natural to have continual fear, or much fear at all. I don't mean we have to prove we're fearless by doing stunts like Evil Knevil, or anything like that, but quietly, naturally. To get rid of fear, you need to stop being addicted to excitement. Deeper joy comes out of the Stillness.

TraineeHuman

23rd January 2014, 09:14

Libico sent me a PM that raises an important issue about astral projection:

I've been having a period of clear dreams lately and have reached the vibrational state a few times over the past weeks, including a minor OBE. I find something very strange though, and would appreciate any insight you could give me on this. If you recall, early on the OBE thread I posted regarding a recurring pain in my lower back I've been having since very early childhood (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=591147&viewfull=1#post591147) that has never really stopped.

Over the past week I've had a few very vivid dreams lately which I started recording, but my latest dream started as an OBE attempt, which lead to a vivid dream, 3:30 wake up and recording, and upon returning to sleep I had another vivid dream of which I had very clear recollection. Both dreams started very negative, but I did end up turning them into a positive experience. This OBE attempt started with me lying down on my back in bed and feeling the onset of strong vibrations. I was able to see my bedroom, but not detach (something that has always been problematic when trying to transition when not in a lucid dream). During this experience when trying to detach I felt the Zuul presence (nothing visual) and very strong pain in my back. I tried to accept the pain as part of me, to allow it take over me without any sort of resistance so as to merge and become one with it, and a few other methods I can't recall, but the pain eventually woke me out of the vibrational state. This has happened at least 5-10 times when trying to go OBE, although there have been a few times within dreams where I have succeeded to push aside the pain and have a successful OBE.

This event had me puzzled, and the following night when lying down and still very much awake; I consciously thought of Zuul - I realize this is just a label but it's how I refer to the source of the pain since childhood. Something even more strange happened and while keeping my focus strongly on this I felt subtle energy (as best as I can describe) on my lower back - it wasn't painful but it was definitely noticeable and I kept my focus strong on Zuul to observe and study this. It seemed to me that I have become sensitive to what my astral body would experience, but since my physical body is at a lower vibrational rate it seems to have been dulled - it's possible that since I was about to go to sleep the veil was thin enough for me to feel something. To be clear, I don't fear this experience when awake nor when I am directly experiencing it (in childhood I would wake up from fear to escape), but I am wondering why I am not able to confront and overcome this recurring situation. I've tried fighting it, taunting it, showing love, acceptance, etc; nothing seems to work. This latest attempt at merging was a first, but I do think I held back a tiny back due to a tiny bit of apprehension there.

Another interesting recent event, I recently met a like-minded individual in my country who I connected with, and who happens to be a certified QHHT practitioner. I decided to undergo a session and one of the my questions to my HM was regarding this Zuul experience. The answer I got back was that it was my ego manifesting and holding me back.

Back in the thread you wrote this may be due to cording which is a real possibility, but whatever the source of this is, I would appreciate any insight you could give on what I can do to stop this from recurring. Also, the fact that I felt a muffled version of this while awake is amazing! Have you had or know of similar experiences?

I'm aware that many people experience some pain when they begin astral projection, even though I never have myself. I'm not referring to the energized feeling in the chest, nor the brief nausea experienced in the stomach. Nor even the experience of sleep paralysis, which itself can often be a little uncomfortable if not slightly painful. Actually, we go through sleep paralysis briefly every time, on the way out of the physical body and then on the way back in.

In a nutshell, I believe the pain you're talking about, Libico, is primarily to do with not separating the astral body and the physical body fully from each other. Secondarily, the pain is caused by the projector not being highly enough energised, or by trying to "jump out" too quickly or in too much of a forced way or too hurriedly. By far the best antidote I know of is to become more proficient at meditation first. The second best antidote is to become more proficient at healing your self prior to starting any OB travel. I also agree that your problem can be partly described as part of the ego's resistance, as your QH therapist said.

Think of it this way. To astral project well, you need to be able to really, truly let your physical body go, and to let it sleep. Just let it totally sleep. That's simple enough. Don't try to fiddle with it or unhitch from it. You have to (almost entirely) forget it and let it be and not try to know how it is. The challenge is to truly be "just a mind/consciousness" that's disembodied. I appreciate you've done a lot of astral projection, Libico, but have you fully learnt this particular basic? Secondly, your mind and consciousness are being stretched, having their horizons broadened, if you are learning this newish skill of astral projection, or learning it more. Partly the pain is the ordinary mind's kickback against venturing into newer territory -- a type of growing pain.

I have plenty more to say about this, and will do so in my next post. I'm busy at my place of my work at present doing extra hours, but will have more comments in a few days.

Libico

23rd January 2014, 12:13

Thanks TH - looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

Do you think that this pain could be present from such an early age if it is related to detaching or jumping out? Like I said it's been present for since I was 3 or 4, and once I got over the nightmare fears, I would say it would be recurring in dreams maybe once per month on average. I have had a few isolated occurrences of sleep paralysis combined with this during my life, but since actively studying and practicing OBE it has happened more often during the pre-sleep phase, although also in dreams. Out of the past 5 or so attempts to go OBE during my dream state, each time it has manifested out of nowhere (without the usual trigger to cause it to appear) with about a 50/50 rate of OBE success.

I tried again last night while lying down to bed to actively focus on this and again felt something in my lower back, although without anything else significant happening. I think I will try focusing on this during meditation (after grounding myself) tonight as I feel like I am at the cusp of breaking through on this issue.

TraineeHuman

24th January 2014, 00:19

As usual, Libico, you raise something which is difficult to respond to in just one post, even a long one. In this post I'd like to begin by sharing some quite unusual phenomena in my own experience which may possibly, in a certain sense, have some similarity to yours, before I go on to other issues in a later post.

One thing I have experienced was that from between the ages of five and fifteen -- mostly throughout that whole period -- I experienced certain pains or weaknesses in certain specific locations of my body which exactly corresponded to the locations where I have minor or major health issues today, a little over a month before I turn sixty-four. At fifteen I developed cancer and then healed myself of it. Two weeks ago I again experienced cancer at the exact same location and again completely healed myself of it, though that only took several days to do this time around. Obviously, this phenomenon is some kind of very clear message that my HM set up -- exposing me in advance, during my childhood, to apparently all the health issues that would come up in older age, or old age. It's also significant because what happened at age fifteen was that I found myself having to face death full on. What that triggered was my first enlightenment experience -- the discovery that I was really the universe and Source. I take it my recent "take two" of cancer was a synchronous message that it's time to start seriously considering retirement from full-time work as a real option, and to make sure it can be a wonderful and transforming rebirth of some kind. Incidentally, my father had ten brothers and one sister and he died at 47, which was still older than any of his siblings except one who reached 50 and one who got to their early 50s. So I have some terrible genes healthwise, from that side of the family. Thank goodness I'm a natural psychic healer, because otherwise you probably wouldn't be reading these words today.

Incidentally, I additionally had a certain physical pain for many years which belonged to a hitchhiker. That pain would actually get much, much worse whenever I went astral traveling at twenty-six -- until I got rid of that hitchhiker. The hitchhiker wasn't human but had been a member of an intelligent species on this planet millions of years ago, well before humans arrived here. Today's whales and dolphins are the ancestors of those members of that species that stayed on the planet. I wrote about that species in the following post and some of the posts that followed it:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?38661-The-journey-to-discovering-my-true-origins&p=403277&viewfull-1#post403277

Before moving on to consider healing and the psychosomatic and the somatopsychic, I'd like to point out that if you've had that problem since age three or four, Libico, then it's what I sometimes call the "baby elephant problem". When circus elephants are very small, they get restrained by having a rope tied around one of their legs. Initially they try hard to pull free of the rope, but find they're not strong enough. Later, as an adult elephant, they simply never try to break that rope, even though at adult size they easily could do so with one flick of their leg. Similarly, at three or four you were so young that you probably told yourself the pain in your back was part of the essence of who you were -- including "you" at an astral level. Ironically, at that age you would probably have been astral traveling quite freely without being old enough to understand that that was what you were doing. But what happened at that young an age is usually buried deep in an individual's subconscious, and it takes something like psychotherapy to peel back the layers before the real offending issue (which in your case probably involves parental cording, at least partly) can be uncovered and re-visited and thereby resolved and removed.

Again, in some lateral kind of sense I experienced a similarity to your situation in my childhood. My mother was extremely clairvoyant and in her head could astrally-see clear movies of everything I ever did, even when she wan't present. In that sense she kept me in a cage -- though she soon learnt she had to make it a very, very gilded cage with quite abnormally great love and affection and validation, even compared to other mothers. Also, I believe that even from the age of at least four or so I had some kind of clear sense of myself as a HM, or certainly as an extra-physical being. Although she didn't realize it, she could never put that in a cage. Because I knew that that extra-physical part was what I truly was, mostly, I could happily often following the path of non-resistance when it came to the cage around my physical self. The irony was, though, that at twenty-six I was still largely in that cage -- that personality that was mostly a kind of copy of my mum -- while I was being taken on astral journeys to every corner of this solar system, usually every night. And then later, when I was thirty, I had still only just broken free of that personality -- but not fully -- and was again taken on similar journeys and taught courses of some kind or other, or trained, every night in the astral.

To be continued.

TraineeHuman

26th January 2014, 08:53

The astral body is intertwined, interconnected with the physical body. So is the mental body, and the HM, and ultimately even Source. But all of these are veiled. The higher the dimension, the greater and more radical and difficult to penetrate the veiling is. This is part of the background from which I'd like to (in my next post) discuss psychosomatic phenomena, a topic presumably relevant to Libico's recently expressed concern.

One might suppose the easiest way to begin penetrating the veil is to start with the veil over/to the astral body, which is after all the first veil -- and hence to start by attempting to learn astral travel. But the more I reflect on the experiences of various individuals and groups and also of myself, the more clear it seems that the best way to start is through becoming extensively skilled at (silent) meditation. That's before one even attempts to learn astral travel, unfortunately. Silent meditation takes one into and through the very essence of progressively higher dimensional veils. Meditation is a matter of coming to terms with such things as formless or half-formless realities, and things which don't have a specific existence but a general one only. Hence much of the "fog" and apparent boredom or apparent meaninglessness that many beginners and post-beginners experience in meditation, possibly for many years.

Ironically, what happens in meditation is that one is learning to go into or be at higher and higher levels, often, for beginners and post-beginners, with little or no appreciation that one is indeed then at some high dimension and that one is actually learning to cope with the essence of almost everything involved in being at that dimension. Meditation may not be the only way. Indeed, I happen to know that thirty or more thousand years ago every human being lived so much in a state of spiritual enlightenment they didn't need meditation at all. Today, given our fallen state (which happened gradually, not suddenly, by the way), extensive meditation does seem to be necessary -- also to ensure that you won't be bothered by any negative or hostile beings or entities when you astral travel. It's like you have then already built launching pads (or possibly even stargates?) in higher dimensions for easy entry into them.

But because overcoming the veils seems to be such a gigantically lengthy process, I find it hard to make sense of Drunvalo's claim, and apparently the claim of some indigenous elders, that in the near future all the veils, all the way to Source, are going to be ripped open for all of humankind. But even assuming that could be possible, I claim we would probably continue to experience something like a physical world -- only, we would be conscious of non-polarity and Oneness shining through at every point.

TraineeHuman

28th January 2014, 07:10

All healing is self-healing. The way psychic healing works is, the healer facilitates the client's own self-healing. I've seen threads in the Healing section in the past where this has (very correctly) been compared to the healer acting a little like jumper leads -- that restart a stalled car's engine, which then takes over and hopefully has no further need of jumper leads. I have found that psychic healers are the individuals who are in touch with their HM. Basically, what they do is facilitate the client's temporarily getting in touch with their own HM -- long enough for the client's HM to kick in to healing the client's organism. I'm mentioning this here because apparently some members don't realize that psychic healing doesn't work by magic, and that it's not ultimately carried out by the healer.

There are limits to how much the client's organism can heal itself. These don't depend on the quality of the healer -- or not very much, even if the healer has powerful skills in white magic. I think some people have taken the stories about the healing powers of Jesus or whoever and jumped to the conclusion that such a healer can break all the "laws" of biology and physics and chemistry. Not so. All that a Jesus, etc might be able to do would be to facilitate the client getting more powerfully in touch with their HM. A Jesus may have the clairvoyant insight that a particular supposedly lame individual can in fact walk. For that particular individual, saying: "Get up and walk" will be the right thing to say. But not for presumably 99% of paraplegics and the like. For instance, of the people who travel to John of God in Brazil, I understand only around 10% or 20% experience any physical healing. You don't need John of God. Any true psychic healer will do. And the quality of the results depends on you, not on the quality of the healer.

All psychic healers will be aware that quite a few cases are "chronic". This means that possibly the condition can be psychically (self-)healed through many healing sessions (involving the psychic healer's facilitation). This is analogous to a motor car having deteriorated to the point where some part has been broken or somewhat worn out. Although the client's organism does have an extraordinary capacity to regenerate itself, there are limits to this, and usually the body cannot grow a new organ etc.

In Libico's case we have a bodily pain that clearly seems to be psychological in origin -- i.e., created by his astral and mental bodies. This also can gradually be overcome and removed through self-healing, and I'll discuss that in my next post.

Deneon

30th January 2014, 16:36

Hi TH, and everyone else!

I haven’t posted in a long, long time. I experienced what I believe(d) to be my first conscious OBE last night, and I have some questions, doubts and thoughts about it. I am hoping you are willing to share your views on my experience.

Short recap: Over a year ago I became very interested in OBEs. Read some books, tried techniques, read all of the OBE threads here. I had very intense energy sensations following all this a few nights, but nothing more. I kept trying for a while, always felt these energies. To this day I can conjure up energy sensations within minutes, but I never seem to be able to get the famous vibrations in full force. Time passed, interest faded a little, real life problems came up, you know how it goes.

The last couple of months, I must have read at least 10 books on OBEs, just because I again became very curious. Tried more techniques. Results have been the same as before. Dream recall has increased enormously over the last few weeks. I began studying, more than reading, Michael Raduga’s book The Phase (available freely on http://www.obe4u.com if anyone is interested). So last night, the following happened:

I woke up around 3:15, got up, went to the toilet, got a glass of water and went back to bed. I might as well do some techniques I thought. I tried some phantom wiggling, with no real success. I began to get in the hypnagogic state and just peered in the blackness and enjoyed the imagery that comes with it. After a while, I became very lightheaded and got a bit dizzy. At this point I began thinking “Get out, get out of my body!”. Suddenly the image of the door to our apartment building began to form. I touched the door to open it, and as I touched it it’s like my consciousness was suddenly completely at that door. I noticed that the more I looked around and the more I touched that door handle, the more aware I felt and the clearer I could see. While this was going on, I knew that I was still lying in bed, I even felt the cat on my leg. That was a weird feeling, as if I was in 2 places at the same time.

I ran out the door onto the street and looked around. I was on the street I grew up in. It was dark outside but I could still see very clearly. Suddenly though, my vision became ‘smaller’. It was like darkness crept in from the corners of my eye up to a point where all I could see was a little speck of the street with darkness all around. Knowing how clear the picture got when I touched the door, I did so again by touching a lamp post on the street. I rubbed my hands together, really felt the texture of the lamppost. Vision came back until it was crystal clear again. For some reason I wanted to try to teleport to an old friend’s house which was 200 meters away on the same street. I closed my eyes and wished myself there. It didn’t work at all. I began to doubt the experience. I thought to myself, just go see if your body is still in your bed and if so, this is a real OBE. Next thing I know I am opening the front door of my apartment. It looks like my current apartment, only the layout of the hall is mirrored. I think to myself “I should turn on the lights” As I thought this, the light outside of my apartment went on. I actually laughed to myself for that happening. I went into my room and I could hear breathing even before I saw anything. I saw my bed, it was dark, but upon close inspection I actually did see myself lying there. There was no fear at all, just curiosity. I had read some nights ago that someone tried touching himself on his cheek and that he actually felt that touch on him in his ‘2nd body’. So I tried that. I didn’t feel it myself, but a second later I was back in my physical body with a jolt of an electric feeling in my bed.

I could not believe at first what had happened. It all felt completely real and there was no gap in consciousness from being in my bedroom seeing myself to being zapped back in my physical body. During the whole experience I thought to myself many times “This can’t be a dream it’s all so real and I’m really here.” During the experience, I was convinced this was a completely conscious real OBE. I wrote everything down and went back to bed. It was hard to fall asleep because I was so excited.

The day after I am beginning to feel like it wasn’t a real OBE. It feels more like a (lucid) dream now (something I have only experienced once before, years ago). I had expected that once I would have a real OBE, there would be no shred of doubt in my mind about the reality of the experience, even the next day (or week, or month). There was no doubt right after the experience, but now that I think back it sort of just feels like a dream. I should be really happy, but I somehow feel disappointment that I remember it as a dream instead of an unforgettable experience. Do some of you recognize this as something you also experienced in ‘the early days’?

Some other thoughts:
- There was not really a feeling of separation. Not even any energy sensations. No weird sounds or visuals or anything. I was just somewhere else suddenly. Could this mean it wasn’t really an OBE but that I just became conscious in a dream?

- I had always set myself the goal to try flying, and to examine how I look while out-of-body, but somehow I ‘forgot’ to do these things, even though I remembered very clearly other things about my physical life (e.g. what I read the day before, wanting to tell someone about this in real life). Is this normal?

- I thought to myself a couple of times things like “wow this is real” and “I am really outside”. I find it odd that I didn’t seem lucid enough to question why I was in a different street than where I live. Can this be attributed to lucidity not being as high as it could be?

- There was no fear at all. All I could think about was to experiment and verify the situation. Isn’t that weird, considering this would be my first real OBE?

Looking forward to hear what others think!

TraineeHuman

31st January 2014, 05:26

I experienced what I believe(d) to be my first conscious OBE last night, and I have some questions, doubts and thoughts about it. I am hoping you are willing to share your views on my experience.

Short recap: Over a year ago I became very interested in OBEs. Read some books, tried techniques, read all of the OBE threads here. I had very intense energy sensations following all this a few nights, but nothing more. I kept trying for a while, always felt these energies. To this day I can conjure up energy sensations within minutes, but I never seem to be able to get the famous vibrations in full force. Time passed, interest faded a little, real life problems came up, you know how it goes.

The last couple of months, I must have read at least 10 books on OBEs, just because I again became very curious. Tried more techniques. Results have been the same as before. Dream recall has increased enormously over the last few weeks. I began studying, more than reading, Michael Raduga’s book The Phase (available freely on http://www.obe4u.com if anyone is interested). So last night, the following happened:

I woke up around 3:15, got up, went to the toilet, got a glass of water and went back to bed. I might as well do some techniques I thought. I tried some phantom wiggling, with no real success. I began to get in the hypnagogic state and just peered in the blackness and enjoyed the imagery that comes with it. After a while, I became very lightheaded and got a bit dizzy. At this point I began thinking “Get out, get out of my body!”. Suddenly the image of the door to our apartment building began to form. I touched the door to open it, and as I touched it it’s like my consciousness was suddenly completely at that door. I noticed that the more I looked around and the more I touched that door handle, the more aware I felt and the clearer I could see. While this was going on, I knew that I was still lying in bed, I even felt the cat on my leg. That was a weird feeling, as if I was in 2 places at the same time.

I ran out the door onto the street and looked around. I was on the street I grew up in. It was dark outside but I could still see very clearly. Suddenly though, my vision became ‘smaller’. It was like darkness crept in from the corners of my eye up to a point where all I could see was a little speck of the street with darkness all around. Knowing how clear the picture got when I touched the door, I did so again by touching a lamp post on the street. I rubbed my hands together, really felt the texture of the lamppost. Vision came back until it was crystal clear again. For some reason I wanted to try to teleport to an old friend’s house which was 200 meters away on the same street. I closed my eyes and wished myself there. It didn’t work at all. I began to doubt the experience. I thought to myself, just go see if your body is still in your bed and if so, this is a real OBE. Next thing I know I am opening the front door of my apartment. It looks like my current apartment, only the layout of the hall is mirrored. I think to myself “I should turn on the lights” As I thought this, the light outside of my apartment went on. I actually laughed to myself for that happening. I went into my room and I could hear breathing even before I saw anything. I saw my bed, it was dark, but upon close inspection I actually did see myself lying there. There was no fear at all, just curiosity. I had read some nights ago that someone tried touching himself on his cheek and that he actually felt that touch on him in his ‘2nd body’. So I tried that. I didn’t feel it myself, but a second later I was back in my physical body with a jolt of an electric feeling in my bed.

I could not believe at first what had happened. It all felt completely real and there was no gap in consciousness from being in my bedroom seeing myself to being zapped back in my physical body. During the whole experience I thought to myself many times “This can’t be a dream it’s all so real and I’m really here.” During the experience, I was convinced this was a completely conscious real OBE. I wrote everything down and went back to bed. It was hard to fall asleep because I was so excited.

The day after I am beginning to feel like it wasn’t a real OBE. It feels more like a (lucid) dream now (something I have only experienced once before, years ago). I had expected that once I would have a real OBE, there would be no shred of doubt in my mind about the reality of the experience, even the next day (or week, or month). There was no doubt right after the experience, but now that I think back it sort of just feels like a dream. I should be really happy, but I somehow feel disappointment that I remember it as a dream instead of an unforgettable experience. Do some of you recognize this as something you also experienced in ‘the early days’?

Some other thoughts:
- There was not really a feeling of separation. Not even any energy sensations. No weird sounds or visuals or anything. I was just somewhere else suddenly. Could this mean it wasn’t really an OBE but that I just became conscious in a dream?

- I had always set myself the goal to try flying, and to examine how I look while out-of-body, but somehow I ‘forgot’ to do these things, even though I remembered very clearly other things about my physical life (e.g. what I read the day before, wanting to tell someone about this in real life). Is this normal?

- I thought to myself a couple of times things like “wow this is real” and “I am really outside”. I find it odd that I didn’t seem lucid enough to question why I was in a different street than where I live. Can this be attributed to lucidity not being as high as it could be?

- There was no fear at all. All I could think about was to experiment and verify the situation. Isn’t that weird, considering this would be my first real OBE?

Looking forward to hear what others think!

The astral body is in conflict with the physical body in important ways. So also is the mental body with both of these. Even the HM has a very detached and impartial take on all three bodies. In, say, Freed Fox's case, it evidently saw fit for him to live most (all?) of a lifetime with a major physical handicap.

Notice even that the whole phenomenon of the vibrations is just simply the astral body being unstable, while the physical body still commands most of -- too much of -- one's attention.

Because of the conflict between the astral body and the physical one, Deneon, both bodies have their own version of sight. These can sometimes be in conflict because both types of sight can be switched on at the same time. You may possibly have noticed yourself going "lucid" in both the physical and the astral body at the same time, for instance. More experienced individuals (including myself) typically experience simultaneous "vision" or "feeling" or whatever at different levels. But a beginner may often already experience switching from one type of vision seamlessly, in a moment. In initial astral projection experiences one goes to one or other of the astral levels that still look almost the same as the physical world and have some form of gravity still operating. There it may be difficult to tell which form of sight is "on" at a given moment. Some people don't initially have their second (i.e., astral) sight working. So congratulations on having that, Deneon. (There is some good advice on how to develop such sight in The Astral Codex -- see post #1472.)

I usually didn't experience floating or flying astral "sensations" in the initial two years of regular astral travel -- even though I could (astral) see from the start that I was often flying rapidly over distances and even into other levels. Many such things take time to develop. It's a little like becoming, say, a musician. It takes years. I understand American Idol is currently one of the most popular TV shows. Consider how much is involved for a new singer to win the first prize in that. Also, some "locations" in the astral are shrouded in a kind of fog, so one can never see very far while in those locations anyway.

I prefer to think of the physical, astral and mental bodies, and even the HM, as different ways of "seeing" or experiencing. You can indeed simply jump from one to the other, and that's what I normally do -- except that one learns to "see" from more than one level at the same time.

All the different bodies were after all created by our Consciousness at the level of Divine Mind. It's only by eventually raising our consciousness to such a level that we can finally resolve the conflict between different levels of reality in us -- and indeed all conflict, all oppositions and polarities, altogether.

In the meanwhile, we may experience, as in Libico's case, a specific physical pain, lasting many years, that is created by or through the astral body. In Libico's case the discomfort or pain is in the lower back, which is the back part of the solar plexus chakra area. That chakra is all about one's identity, one's role, one's vocation. Who made you feel insecure at age three or four, Libico? Who took away your confidence, your power in some way? Most individuals wouldn't remember what happened at that age, not without digging very hard.Discomfort or pain from the rear side means external control by someone else, usually a parent or sibling (at that age), and that's why I mentioned cording earlier on, Libico.

One phenomenon very well-known to psychic healers is that at least 99% of the problem underlying a physical healing -- if the condition is indeed healable -- is emotional/mental. Interestingly, though, the healer doesn't heal the entire psychological problem, but only does so enough to keep it temporarily in check. That somehow gives the physical organism temporary "breathing room" to rebalance itself and often remove the physical sickness or condition, or at least to improve it significantly. Notice, though, how this is another example of how the astral and mental and the physical interact -- and of how the HM can bring in greater balance regarding how they affect one another.

Lifeforce is already a very important and central feature of reality in the astral levels. Notice that lifeforce in itself is already semi-consciousness, in the astral. My understanding is that there are higher levels of Lifeforce. From the HM level on, such Lifeforce can instantly shift gears, so to speak, now to the physical, now to the astral, or the mental.

More comments from me later, Deneon.

TraineeHuman

1st February 2014, 05:10

The last couple of months, I must have read at least 10 books on OBEs, just because I again became very curious. Tried more techniques. Results have been the same as before. Dream recall has increased enormously over the last few weeks. I began studying, more than reading, Michael Raduga’s book The Phase (available freely on http://www.obe4u.com if anyone is interested). So last night, the following happened:

It's great that you're taking action. Unfortunately a discussion Forum, or a book, can only present knowledge. As you've proved in your case, that's no doubt when the knowledge becomes genuinely valuable. Experience gradually turns into consciousness. That's because the essence of the experience becomes integrated more and more into one's life, so that eventually its essence is constantly there. This need not just be the experience of astral projection. The experience of meditation will do also, for instance.

As long as the HM is in a veiled form only, or mainly, it's mixed up with emotional (astral) and mental baggage. We have seen quite dramatically, I feel, in the case of our friend Freed Fox, how much despair and frustration and dissatisfaction the urge towards the HM can bring as it finds imperfect expression in emotional form. For many individuals, however, both emotional and mental frustration of this order may need to be gone through. Ultimately, though, it's the call of the HM, as it strives towards breaking through. Both the emotional and the mental parts of a person have to agree to listen to the voice of the HM, however distorted (by emotional and mental baggage) and seemingly tiny a voice it may initially seem to be.

More comments from me shortly.

chocolate

2nd February 2014, 01:39

A forum search for the name of Tom Cambell (Thomas Campbell) redirected me to this thread, and I am going to disturb the OBE experiences only to post several videos in which Tom Campbell explains the nature of reality, gives some tools for accessing 'super abilities', and a lot of other interesting facts and speculations. I have to say I agree to a degree with what he is saying, but not 100 %. Yet. I haven't read his books.

Part 1 deals with the double slit experiment and what currently science has established:
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Part 2:
_wISsxE-EZU

And part 3 which is the practical part with some techniques for Remote Viewing, healing and such:
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The information presented is quite fascinating, but it is not easily put into the framework of the current understanding of the world. I apologize if this has been covered, skimming through the thread gave me only a rough overview.

I hope you will have a fun time watching/listening.

TraineeHuman

2nd February 2014, 02:37

Hi, chocolate. I'm sure your contribution is appreciated. Tom Campbell is very interesting because he describes many unfamiliar concepts and phenomena in simple language. That's not easy to do, by any means. Like you, I don't agree with Campbell's own individual take on certain things. But that's often not important, because he nearly always starts by painting the broader, background picture first, the picture that's generally accepted by most physicists and cosmologists. Campbell seems to like to think that physics, in the broader sense including quantum theory, includes absolutely everything else. That's not true. However, he has used deep investigation into the foundations of physics as a way of penetrating far into reality -- where everything is deeply interconnected with everything else, including with the foundations of physics.

Reality is very, very different from the very superficial version of "reality" that our senses and conditioning lead us to suppose we're experiencing. When deeply experienced as it truly is, it forces the most radical changes to our most basic concepts. It challenges everything we ever imagined we knew to be true. I'm happy to talk about the ideas of anyone who points us in that direction, be it Carlos Castaneda or Tom Campbell or Gary Zukav or many others. I experienced this deepest underlying reality at the ages of fourteen to sixteen. Prior to that, I had considered that philosophy was totally useless, because it seemed to be concerned with proving that the most obvious things were true, when didn't we already know these were true? But unless one is willing to question absolutely everything that one supposes to be obvious or real, one sure will never truly appreciate what the deeper reality is like, nor how it acts. Talk about going far inside rabbitholes.

chocolate

2nd February 2014, 15:00

Hi TraineeHuman!
I am having a little bit of a trouble understanding Mr. Campbell's view on the larger "consciousness" being a digital information field?! without any way of proving exactly that he is correct. I feel he is travelling on the stream of everything else being digital information, so presumably that thing is what he says it is. He makes certain assumptions regarding this, as well as regarding his version of the holographic simulation I am having problems with. It could be just my own limitation speaking, but it could as well be different. But even having a bit of a skeptical eye on some of his explanations, I truly appreciate his effort and details. It is fascinating. I can see very few people being able to relate to what he is saying. May be here on PA more would be able to relate to his words, but outside I cannot even imaging who I could talk to using the same language / explanations and such. People seem to shut themselves off the moment they start to see where I am heading with my thoughts. Or so it seems.

I wrote on a thread just before I stumbled upon the videos above using almost the same terminology, but in my view the larger consciousness is a bit different from whet he explains it to be. I had a bit of a shock to hear someone speak about it 3 years before me coming to the same conclusions on my own.
I will not go in detailed explanations. I will re-watch the videos again to see how they sound today.
personally I always found philosophy to be true when I approached it with my intuitive understanding. I have a long practice of yoga, and later qi gong before that was popular to the extend it is today. I have learned at the time suspending my technical/logical mind.

Regarding the thread, it is strange to me that some people spend so much time and effort trying to do things that come naturally to all of us, being conscious or not of them occurring. I will read through the thread more carefully in the next couple of days. But talking about OBE is not going to be my thing. :)

TraineeHuman

3rd February 2014, 10:29

I am having a little bit of a trouble understanding Mr. Campbell's view on the larger "consciousness" being a digital information field?! without any way of proving exactly that he is correct. I feel he is travelling on the stream of everything else being digital information, so presumably that thing is what he says it is. He makes certain assumptions regarding this, as well as regarding his version of the holographic simulation I am having problems with. It could be just my own limitation speaking, but it could as well be different.
I wrote on a thread just before I stumbled upon the videos above using almost the same terminology, but in my view the larger consciousness is a bit different from whet he explains it to be. I had a bit of a shock to hear someone speak about it 3 years before me coming to the same conclusions on my own.

Tom Campbell believes that our physical universe is a hologram; and that from this it follows that it must be generated by some super computer in the sky. Certainly it seems very likely and plausible that the physical world is some kind of hologram. But why would it follow that that hologram was generated by a computer? Computers, as we know them, are fundamentally very much digital in nature, in the way they work. Hence Campbell's claim that the physical world is fundamentally digital.

I haven't come across Campbell's explanation for why he believes this. But I wonder if maybe it was based on the supposed fact that we supposedly can't tell the difference between a virtual (physical) reality generated by a sophisticated computer -- as in the predicted technology of the future -- and physical reality itself.

One objection I have to Campbell's claim comes from looking at the Pythagoreans of ancient Greek times. This is a little technical. But the Pythagoreans claimed that all physical reality was reducible to, and fully measurable in, whole numbers, or fractions of whole numbers. It was however proved in their day that the square root of two cannot be equal to any fraction of two whole numbers (one whole number divided by another). Not only that, but by the eighteenth century mathematicians had proved (absolutely) that virtually all finite lengths or numbers are not only not fractions of whole numbers but moreover are "transcendental". A transcendental number is one which cannot be described by any polynomial. The square root of two, however, is the x which satisfies the polynomial "x squared minus two equals zero". (An example of an infinite collection of numbers is every possible length between zero inches and one inch on a ruler.) The first number proved to be transcendental, by the way, was pi, the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter.

I suspect Campbell is assuming that because it's possible to generate at least a rough-grained picture of a complete hologram out of any part of it, that generating must be done by some kind of computing process. But for me, that's way too mechanical. I suspect holograms, and the way they hang together, are something much more wonderful than that. One thing experienced meditators get a lot is the direct insight into the sameness of all things. That sameness is in no way boring, and in no way mechanical, or dull, or lacking in vitality or beauty. I suspect this is the key to what makes a hologram work, and not some computer or computer-like process. The sameness, and also the Oneness that is the glue that holds everything together.

TraineeHuman

6th February 2014, 01:03

I began to get in the hypnagogic state and just peered in the blackness and enjoyed the imagery that comes with it. After a while, I became very lightheaded and got a bit dizzy.

It's great that you can apparently identify the hypnagogic/hypnapompic state. Such a state is not far at all from being touch with one's HM, or may mean one is so in touch. Can you learn to retain that state, for periods at least, while you're going about your everyday affairs? In my own case (I know, you may ask why am "I" bringing in individuality after you've read my paragraph to come below), one of the biggest benefits of practicing astral projection and mental projection was that it enabled me to do that better -- i.e., to live at "two levels" simultaneously. It was something I greatly treasured during those years, and it was a transition to learning how to, considerably later on, stay largely free from unhappiness.

The day after I am beginning to feel like it wasn’t a real OBE. It feels more like a (lucid) dream now (something I have only experienced once before, years ago). I had expected that once I would have a real OBE, there would be no shred of doubt in my mind about the reality of the experience, even the next day (or week, or month). There was no doubt right after the experience, but now that I think back it sort of just feels like a dream. I should be really happy, but I somehow feel disappointment that I remember it as a dream instead of an unforgettable experience. Do some of you recognize this as something you also experienced in ‘the early days’?

If a truly unforgettable and extraordinary vivid experience is what you truly want and need, may I suggest that that would be the initial experience or two or more of spiritual enlightenment. In such an experience one clearly sees, for example, that the whole notion of individuality is false and utterly unreal. Mind you, as long as we continue to have a physical body (or an astral or mental one), we have no option but to honor what we then know to be the illusory matrix in which such things exist and make their demands on us.

There was not really a feeling of separation. Not even any energy sensations. No weird sounds or visuals or anything. I was just somewhere else suddenly. Could this mean it wasn’t really an OBE but that I just became conscious in a dream?

No! On the contrary, the lack of separation means you were right in touch with your HM. In fact, you were in touch with a higher dimension, that of the HM, where there is no such thing as a body of any kind within that dimension. This is great. Once again, Deneon, I have to insist that you are doing much better, and reaching higher levels, than you suppose.

There was no fear at all. All I could think about was to experiment and verify the situation. Isn’t that weird, considering this would be my first real OBE?

Again, I would repeat my last comment.

Finally, one principle I have always sought to follow, and found extraordinarily fruitful, is to always look for what is beautiful. Beauty is an extraordinary royal road to real (absolute or ultimate) Truth. I'm not saying be a Polyanna or wear blinkers. But if you want vivid and unforgettable experiences in any dimension, including the physical, stay with what is beautiful when it happens to be there -- the beauty of Nature or whatever. And when it isn't there, have your antennas out for it. I've already mentioned the great importance of being always very honest with yourself about yourself, and how that takes you deep into Truth. But beauty helps you get there as well.