The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs [Archive] - Page 7

TraineeHuman

20th February 2014, 07:33

There are many reasons why it's important to explore and understand the inter-subjective. Tom Campbell does this is in some detail, but mostly within the field of physics and the foundations of physics -- except that he also sees remote viewing and psychic healing and, I assume, meditation as applications of what ultimately underlies physics.

Maybe a more important reason for seeking to understand the inter-subjective is because without it we can't understand the Now. Unfortunately, people are tempted to suppose that they do understand and appreciate, and can easily experience, everything that's involved in the Now. Certainly, if you do manage to be sufficiently fully in the Now then -- and only then -- you will have a true center. Then your thought will simply stop wandering in circles. And your life will be largely in synch with the Universe itself. That, I suggest, is also what it means to be freed from the Fall of the human race.

Whenever you get truly centered like this, there is a mind -- the Higher Mind. It sees everything inter-subjectively. The Universe itself ultimately only exists for the sake of Consciousness -- for the HM and ultimately the Divine Mind. But alas, there are many types and levels of "mind". The HM, and the Divine Mind, is what gives human life its infinite value. But how to integrate and reconcile Spirit and Matter, or the Divine and Nature -- without denying or invalidating the reality of either?

Another reason why I suggest it's important to begin to ex-lore and understand the inter-subjective is because of one of the major forms of dumbing down in twentieth century society almost planetwide. This has been the myth of --as I would describe it -- objectivity-as-king-over-the-intersubjective. I've already done my best earlier to explain that, for example, the "I" is master of and dominant to and more real than the "me". One reason why this myth manages to retain some plausibility is the fact that we are limited beings seeking to understand the totality of what there is. We do therefore need to sometimes use imagination initially in a purely subjective way, to help our understanding or our inquiry to find broader horizons. Unfortunately, most of us have no definitive experience and understanding of a non-dual Divine, universal consciousness. But neither do we have any clear limit at all to our experience even while we still have the confines of a physical body. All forms of OB or meditation experience tend to affirm this quite clearly.

What we ideally all need is an enlargement of our individual consciousness into a truly universal consciousness. And the inter-subjective is the very area that points us towards this. It's what gives us insight into what it may be like. That expanded consciousness, if we do manage to experience it, clearly exists eternally and purely for its own sake, and is far, far more subtle than our physical body-mind. This brings us, though, to the topic of what is the true nature of Time, the Time that lies beyond all measurement.

It should be clear that that Time, being immeasurable, must be inter-subjective or at least subjective. By contrast, physical space, as normally understood, seems to be clearly objective (in the true sense of the word, i.e. object-like). It's divisible into units, each of which is the same as the other -- in so far as it's pure (physical) space. Notice, too, that "time" a la our clocks is that aspect of Time which can be objectified. That's because it's also divided (interesting word, "divided") into standard, identical units, known as minutes, hours and so on. By contrast with physical space, the experience of the HM often includes a vivid experience of "pure space" of a non-physical kind, and which is not passive at all but feels highly intelligent and dynamic and alive, and very truly present, unlike physical space, which is a kind of empty blandness.

In perhaps mysterious and certainly veiled ways, the universal Consciousness possesses a self-knowledge that secretly lies within all life, in everything animate -- and even, I would claim, in such things as rocks. Incidentally, that's a very interesting astral projection exercise -- to visit, say, rocks, and explore whether inwardly in them somehow there is some type of Higher consciousness after all, of which they themselves are not aware. Maybe out of that we could come to experience that there is such a thing as the unified, the one, consciousness that underlies all that's matter. One might call this "Matter".

The physical world is real precisely because it only exists in consciousness.

TraineeHuman

23rd February 2014, 12:38

The physical universe is indeed a hologram: Tom Campbell elaborates on some aspects of this in considerable detail. I don't completely agree with some of his details. But there is a profound and fascinating reason why the world as we like to think we know it has to be a hologram. It has to be not the full reality.

First let me suggest that this is something gigantically more radical, more "way out there", than just the idea that the physical universe -- or, if you like, the electromagnetic mental and emotional universe -- is a kind of projection, like some cosmic movie. Why do I say this? Well, just imagine for a moment, if you will, what something would be like if it's more than the universe, beyond the entire universe. Really, what could that be like? Certainly it won't live by all the same rules as the universe, so to speak. It would be wilder than that! What if there is a superior whatever it is Beyond, living in a rather inexpressible infinity and eternity? What if it isn't tainted by polarity or duality, for instance -- but can still hugely affect the world of polarities we live in? This of course is simply a perhaps more sophisticated version of the notion that God made, or makes, the universe. As I've already mentioned, though, God -- well, Source --- actually contains the entire universe also. The ground beneath our feet really is "holy", wherever we might be standing, and however dirty or bloodied it may also be. The world as God's hologram, God's ultimate toy. It has to be a hologram, because Source's signature is everywhere, if you know how to look, in even the tiniest fragment of the physical universe. As quantum physics to some degree suggests.

To know that Beyond, I guess we need to experience or be in that level of consciousness where we find ourselves totally -- and somehow undeniably -- one with all existence. And what a call to the wilderness it is just to experience that, to see with those "spectacles". How understandable that well-educated people select to become homeless, or others feel compelled to become utter ascetics. Misguidedly in both cases, in my opinion, by the way.

Can you imagine a Beyond which exceeds our known reality hugely, humungously, gigantically? So that all forms, to give one example, and all quantities, and even all qualities, get dissolved, transformed, into something much greater than themselves? Into something where what we knew seem like the palest shadows, or not even that? When I was sixteen I really wanted to write a tiny book which would describe some of this reality in simple terms others would understand, and they would see that it must be true. I had read a charming small book called Flatland. Flatland was all about mathematically-two-dimensional conscious beings who were things like triangles and rectangles and so on. In that world, single lines were considered lower-class and circles and multi-sided polygons were greatly admired and respected, and depth effects (i.e. from the third mathematical-dimension) were considered highly puzzling and supernatural and inexplicable. I decided the best working title I could come up with for my piece was Blobland. I never got to write most of Blobland, though I spent considerable time trying. The problem was that the English language was far too incomplete, far too inadequate. Also, concepts were largely inadequate. I guess there was no substitute for pure Being, and Being of a kind that's identical with consciousness, with no difference between the two.

It's already been mentioned in this thread that the HM has no difficulty holding two or more contradictory points of view or ideas or whatever at the same time. Even much more so the Oneness, or Source, where, for example, total absolute oneness is fully felt and experienced/lived, and at the same time all conflicts and everything else is also completely tolerated and accepted -- even if seen from the perspective of infinity, raather than from the viewpoint of the surface self.

I could say something like: in Source the Absolute and the Relative turn out to be identical; and the Absolute is actually relatedness itself. But whatever I say, it will include what our ordinary mind sees as a contradiction. Such is the nature of the "projector" of this hologram which we think we know as the universe.

Maybe -- I think probably -- even if one hasn't experienced Source directly (which is the ultimate metaphysical heart attack anyway), one can still have some kind of vague but firm sense of it inside oneself. Or maybe just the firm sense that the world we know is woefully incomplete, and must be only a shadow of something much greater and truer?

HaulinBananas

23rd February 2014, 17:50

. . . Can you imagine a Beyond which exceeds our known reality hugely, humungously, gigantically? So that all forms, to give one example, and all quantities, and even all qualities, get dissolved, transformed, into something much greater than themselves? Into something where what we knew seem like the palest shadows, or not even that? . . . The problem was that the English language was far too incomplete, far too inadequate. Also, concepts were largely inadequate. I guess there was no substitute for pure Being, and Being of a kind that's identical with consciousness, with no difference between the two.
. . .

Maybe -- I think probably -- even if one hasn't experienced Source directly (which is the ultimate metaphysical heart attack anyway), one can still have some kind of vague but firm sense of it inside oneself. Or maybe just the firm sense that the world we know is woefully incomplete, and must be only a shadow of something much greater and truer?

I was listening yesterday to a portion of William Buhlman's audio book How To Have an Out Of Body Experience, disk 2 of 6, section titled: The Direct Path to a Spiritual Experience and he tells of a natural evolution he experienced in OBE, as he progressed from experiencing forms in astral to moving beyond light speed within himself, through layers of color, beyond our multi-dimensional reality and going to higher or finer vibratory dimensions within himself, realizing that this was possibly a doorway to having a profound experience.

So, instead of exploring the form-based realities of the astral world he decided to intend to have a profound experience. He demanded to experience his Higher Self. William Buhlman's experience is described as shooting like at the speed of light in a vacuum, he says through layers of color, within himself, he says that it is hard to describe in words, but of he could only describe layers of color, mists, energy, as if his Beingness was being stretched throughout the entire Universe. Until he was floating in an immense sea of light (he says words are inadequate to describe it) He was part of it, it was pure Love, pure Beingness, pure Knowledge, Connection, all Wisdom.

To him, this was an experience that showed him the true potential and power of out of body exploration beyond exploration of the astral. He realized that it was a profound experience we all can have, and still remain a part of society. He says it's just a matter of focusing, taking the time, learning the techniques. And Doing It. He says this is the most powerful reason to OBE. It gives immense personal knowledge, that we suddenly Know, that beliefs are gone. That we realize what is important. That OBE is a direct inner path. William Buhlman tells his experience, and your description above is similar, especially the part where words cannot describe it sufficiently.

With regard to Tom Campbell, for about 4 months I thought Tom Campbell hadn't put up any new videos on Youtube. The number of videos stayed at 204. Then I found a new one last week, because the number went to 205. However, a comment below the Youtube video said to check the "Playlists" tab, that he had been adding a number of videos the past few months. And, he had. But you have to click Playlists to see them. He has a whole conference done in Mexico recently put up on his Youtube channel - a conference will include the lecture and exercises. So the Youtube video count on Tom Campbell's channel doesn't reflect the addition of new videos.

TraineeHuman

25th February 2014, 13:25

I was listening yesterday to a portion of William Buhlman's audio book How To Have an Out Of Body Experience, disk 2 of 6, section titled: The Direct Path to a Spiritual Experience and he tells of a natural evolution he experienced in OBE, as he progressed from experiencing forms in astral to moving beyond light speed within himself, through layers of color, beyond our multi-dimensional reality and going to higher or finer vibratory dimensions within himself, realizing that this was possibly a doorway to having a profound experience.

So, instead of exploring the form-based realities of the astral world he decided to intend to have a profound experience. He demanded to experience his Higher Self. William Buhlman's experience is described as shooting like at the speed of light in a vacuum, he says through layers of color, within himself, he says that it is hard to describe in words, but of he could only describe layers of color, mists, energy, as if his Beingness was being stretched throughout the entire Universe. Until he was floating in an immense sea of light (he says words are inadequate to describe it) He was part of it, it was pure Love, pure Beingness, pure Knowledge, Connection, all Wisdom.

To him, this was an experience that showed him the true potential and power of out of body exploration beyond exploration of the astral. He realized that it was a profound experience we all can have, and still remain a part of society. He says it's just a matter of focusing, taking the time, learning the techniques. And Doing It. He says this is the most powerful reason to OBE. It gives immense personal knowledge, that we suddenly Know, that beliefs are gone. That we realize what is important. That OBE is a direct inner path. William Buhlman tells his experience, and your description above is similar, especially the part where words cannot describe it sufficiently.

Ah yes, Light. If you should ever find there's Light everywhere, and unity everywhere around you, maybe that may sound like it could be monotonous, boring. But in my experience and knowledge that's not at all how anyone experiences pure Light, and even being pure Light. It's not some endless blanchmange at all. Although yes, in a way it's like being able to have more and more of the most delicious desserts, as much as you can handle, without any health backlash. But you could say it's also the opposite of the known.

We can and do, in moments, also experience Light in a metaphorical sense. "Light" as that which dissolves polarity and any absence of happiness or joy in you. The Light of the pure Self, ultimately. Something that seems so much the opposite of all that's material. This, as I understand it, is the starting point for the leap beyond the HM.

Vastness. A totality that contains -- well, all totalities, in their essence. No vagueness. No clouds. Just truth -- the most wonderful feeling just because of how things are, and of how right and true and beautiful they are in the Light.

Incidentally, I've read way too much about very bright white light(s) supposedly being a trap after our death. For one thing, the fact is the whole transition into the afterlife is under the full control of the guardian angels. No being messes with them, believe me. Any bright white light you see at death will be either your HM or some guardian angel, or possibly some highly evolved and benevolent guide. No exceptions.

Another funny thing about the Light. In many near-death experiences, it seems that what a person sees as darkness or blackness actually is the Light, no less -- though it can take them a while to realize that this is so. Interestingly, this is what I also went through when I began regular astral projection. I initially seemed to be traveling in a blackness, but then learnt to "switch" it to pure Light -- presumably sometimes the Light of the HM or even beyond. I suspect this is why I have rarely ever experienced negative or hostile entities or beings while astral projecting. It's only been when I did something like dabble with doing exorcisms, for example, that I encountered any "baddies".

Jake

25th February 2014, 14:43

I have rarely ever experienced negative or hostile entities or beings while astral projecting. It's only been when I did something like dabble with doing exorcisms, for example, that I encountered any "baddies".

Amen, brother. I started out in a different way... the 'baddies' were alive and well and seemed to take center stage... It is much different now!! :) I only wish that I had better mentorship as a child... In fact, I wish we ALL had better mentorship with regards OBE. A lot of time is wasted on the 'baddies'..... I would ask you to expand your teachings to the nature of the 'baddies',, but I no longer dwell there... you are a shining star, TH,,,,

Jake.

HaulinBananas

25th February 2014, 19:18

. . .Incidentally, I've read way too much about very bright white light(s) supposedly being a trap after our death. For one thing, the fact is the whole transition into the afterlife is under the full control of the guardian angels. No being messes with them, believe me. Any bright white light you see at death will be either your HM or some guardian angel, or possibly some highly evolved and benevolent guide. No exceptions.

Another funny thing about the Light. In many near-death experiences, it seems that what a person sees as darkness or blackness actually is the Light, no less -- though it can take them a while to realize that this is so. Interestingly, this is what I also went through when I began regular astral projection. I initially seemed to be traveling in a blackness, but then learnt to "switch" it to pure Light -- presumably sometimes the Light of the HM or even beyond. I suspect this is why I have rarely ever experienced negative or hostile entities or beings while astral projecting. It's only been when I did something like dabble with doing exorcisms, for example, that I encountered any "baddies".

Thank you for sharing your experience and understanding of Light.

With regard to your rarely experiencing "baddies" - I have spent some time listening to Marilynn Hughes audio books from Audible, and she shares her OBE experiences. The experiences she relates seem to be almost always in a vast astral belief system that has to do with religions. There are a lot of "baddies" there, but also Angels, Saints, famous religious figures, Jesus, Satan, demons by the multitude, ghosts, evil people, victims, what might be what is called a Soul Group set of characters that she keeps meeting again in different times, incarnation, astral levels. Near the beginning of one of her lengthy audiobooks she tells of another OBE person who was observing her in a religious setting, and said he was a physicist. Since I had previously listened to Tom Campbell in My Big TOE, I wondered if it was him. But, there are apparently other physicists who OBE (maybe Fred Alan Wolf for one?.) Both Marilynn Hughes and Tom Campbell have said in their respective books something about being able to hurl "lightning" in the astral.

I'm glad you are addressing the topic of the white lights being a trap after death, keeping people in an incarnation cycle. I've wondered about that. In Robert Monroe's trilogy of books, particularly in the second book, Far Journey, the idea of earth being a Space/Time experience, the M-Band, and the various levels that beings would be floating at after or in between incarnations, plus the description of the Focus 27 area, the glimpses he has of what comes after the Human Experience, and his look into Earth's future when humanity had evolved to a physical/non-physical experience . . . all combine to make the reincarnation cycle seem like a restrictive but educational experience. To get out one has to evolve.

Tom Campbell's My Big TOE trilogy also uses the Earth reincarnation cycles as an evolutionary experience. Although he likens Earth to be on a nursery school level.

After listening to Marilynn Hughes audio books several times now (Galactica, Prelude to a Dream, Mysteries of the Redemption), I am uncertain that she has backed up to get a big picture view, it all seems to be one "tree" after another and no view of the forest. I recall Sir Dipswitch saying in the other OBE thread here on PA that a person can spend an eternity in the Astral, and after listening to Marilynn Hughes' books, I wonder if that is what she will be doing. Maybe she is making a difference for each person she saves. Like that one starfish on the beach that is thrown back into the ocean, it makes a difference to that one, even though all the others drying out on the beach aren't saved.

Joe Akulis

25th February 2014, 19:37

I love reading stories from astral rescue workers. It really helped me to understand the areas of what Monroe called Focus 23-25 "the belief system territories". So many different ways for people to work things out, and mostly in environments that they think are "real". There's also so many ways for people to just get stuck.

It's probably hard for TH to hear people like me talk about all the things I've learned by reading from others, instead of just going out and experiencing it for myself. :-)

I'm working on it. I'm working on it.

TraineeHuman

26th February 2014, 01:18

Thank you for sharing your experience and understanding of Light.

There's some form of light at every level, and it's different at every level, but it usually points towards something from a level higher than that level.

With regard to your rarely experiencing "baddies" - I have spent some time listening to Marilynn Hughes audio books from Audible, and she shares her OBE experiences. The experiences she relates seem to be almost always in a vast astral belief system that has to do with religions. There are a lot of "baddies" there, but also Angels, Saints, famous religious figures, Jesus, Satan, demons by the multitude, ghosts, evil people, victims ...

Fine, but I found that if you can keep some of your attention on the Light and on how it nurtures you while you're in any any astral/mental/"causal"/... realm, you won't be bothered by demons etc etc.

Both Marilynn Hughes and Tom Campbell have said in their respective books something about being able to hurl "lightning" in the astral.
I've done that, but isn't it preferable just to share some Light, = good energy? For instance, you can nonphysically "hug" another being. After I learnt to astral project I found that my sexual relationships had a more satisfying side to them that was lovemaking in the astral and not the physical. This would sometimes continue for days or at least hours after physical sex. It seemed far more pleasurable to me, even if perhaps not exciting. But peaceful and blissful, and well -- detached in certain ways, certainly from the physical body. But also more sensual, in a pleasant way, at an astral level, because in the lower to mid astral levels sensuality can actually be experienced more intensely.

I'm glad you are addressing the topic of the white lights being a trap after death, keeping people in an incarnation cycle. I've wondered about that. In Robert Monroe's trilogy of books, particularly in the second book, Far Journey, the idea of earth being a Space/Time experience, the M-Band, and the various levels that beings would be floating at after or in between incarnations, plus the description of the Focus 27 area, the glimpses he has of what comes after the Human Experience, and his look into Earth's future when humanity had evolved to a physical/non-physical experience . . . all combine to make the reincarnation cycle seem like a restrictive but educational experience. To get out one has to evolve.

Well, yes, but we understand the white lights are benevolent. Ultimately, as I think you say, it's your own white light that's doing the restricting, because you're not ready to move on further yet.

After listening to Marilynn Hughes audio books several times now (Galactica, Prelude to a Dream, Mysteries of the Redemption), I am uncertain that she has backed up to get a big picture view, it all seems to be one "tree" after another and no view of the forest. I recall Sir Dipswitch saying in the other OBE thread here on PA that a person can spend an eternity in the Astral, and after listening to Marilynn Hughes' books, I wonder if that is what she will be doing. Maybe she is making a difference for each person she saves. Like that one starfish on the beach that is thrown back into the ocean, it makes a difference to that one, even though all the others drying out on the beach aren't saved.

The traps are all here in the physical while the person still has a physical body. There are so many traps. That's why psychotherapy and self-knowledge are so crucial. It can be harder to free a person from a trap once they've died. But they do manage to work their way out of them -- with the TEMPORARY exception of a kind of individual "black hole", by which I mean that the person feels totally hopeless under the weight of some issue and is sabotaging themselves without knowing it. So we do need the Marilyn Hughes types, provided they're aware enough to know what they're doing and strong enough to handle it. But there is also a gigantic "organisation" in the sky of all sorts of types of angels, who will eventually rescue such individuals.

In my twenties I used to have all sorts of mostly dead people trying to follow me around, wanting astral advice or instructions on the grounds that, according to them, I was a guardian angel. It was only in my fifties that I learnt that I really did have that past background. But I eventually decided it wasn't appropriate or natural for such beings to follow me around except maybe for a very short period. Because there are angels working in that area full-time. Also, I learnt that once dead people are truly ready to leave their trap(s), even the "black hole" situation, it was very easy to help them take the final small jump out. I simply had to create a small area of golden (Divine Mind) light and ask them to take one step into it. Then I would hand them over to some guardian angels, to do their normal job. One time I came across a group of over four thousand earthbound souls who were ready and had had enough. Each of them needed only a second to step into the golden light, and they were then freed of that trap already.

TraineeHuman

26th February 2014, 08:20

Light with a capital "L", as I see it, is almost the same as what I've been calling Oneness, so far. It's a kind of higher "octave" of the life-force. Light doesn't act individually, but seems to absorb all individuality into something greater, not in any destructive way but by some kind of osmosis, I guess.

Intuition, and intuitive knowing, occupies the middle territory between Light and our activity and awareness as an individual consciousness. So also does reason and the mind, at least when they are at their finest. Liberation is always ultimately a liberation into Light, as far as I'm aware. However, no-one achieves that full liberation at once, but only in many, many increments.

So, I guess I would say that once you can get into the HM world, what you seem to "see" as Light is actually the Oneness, or some partial view of the Oneness. This is certainly related to physical light, but the physical light is of course the analogue of the physical or astral body -- a veiled outreach from the Oneness into a lower-dimensional reality. Even physical light, though, is understandably mysterious. As Tom Campbell points out in the first video in post #1491, it's nonsense for physicists to claim that the very same "piece" of physical light, while remaining unchanged, takes the form now of a wave and now of a particle. That would be like saying it was now perfectly square and at other times perfectly circular, but without changing.

Still, it's a huge puzzle and mystery how Light which is infinite can shape and set in motion a finite universe. Even if Light was so to speak blindfolded and had all its infinity of "arms" tied (by itself) behind its "back", it's still extraordinary how it could pull off the miracle of creating finiteness. In my adolescence I frequently used to spend hours just looking at things like a street lamp at night, or the night sky, in wordless amazement and enthralment. It's only now that I've managed to verbalize anything about what the reason was that I did this -- and I'm sure this -- what I've said in this post -- was the exact reason.

TraineeHuman

26th February 2014, 12:32

All of Tom Campbell's ideas are important, I suggest, because he's wise enough to recognize one thing. This is that the only way to reconcile Spirit and Matter/materialism is through finding the utmost and complete unification of the two. In that sense, his view that physics somehow encompasses "everything" whatsoever is justified, and helpful. It also opens a way for people of today to consider profound spiritual questions ultimately via just understanding the foundations of physics. The inner reconciled with the outer.

As far as I understand, one starting point for everything Tom says is the following fact. Everything we experience or know to exist absolutely involves consciousness -- a perceiving, observing consciousness (or sometimes, maybe, being totally one with consciousness itself). There's no seen without a see-r, nothing known without a knower. Any kind of objectivity, full or partial, that can exist in that reality, which is the only reality we know, must, therefore, be active. And action can't happen without a subject, a doer.

It follows that therefore there's no such thing as a "world out there" if you mean any world that exists independently of consciousness. I trust that's very clear to everyone? (So, for example, there is no "matter" or "motion" prior to or in any way separable from consciousness.) Let me put the same thing in different words. We can only deal with knowable reality. Therefore, in the only reality we know, everything that exists exists for and in consciousness.

From the point of view of Spirit, the individual ego is a fiction. But we also live in a material world, and and if we emphasize the unreality of the ego too greatly, and deny its game, we'll alienate ourselves from ordinary life. However transitory or petty or neurotic or ultimately purposeless the ordinary world of Matter may be, we do live in it and are part of it also. Spirit per se is freedom, and matter is -- or seems like -- the chains. And somehow we have to cope with both as seamlessly as possible. T.S. Eliot said basically that between Spirit and Matter falls "the shadow", which seemed to be something ominous and meaningless. I think he was largely wrong. I would say what falls in between is Aliveness -- and that's something we can all directly feel if we try, deep within ourselves.

We shouldn't forget, either, how we are somewhat misled by words, always. Our limited (ordinary) minds see -- and yearn to see and clutch at -- sharp oppositions where these don't exist. And if we don't know, for instance, that truly the inner "I" lives beyond time, what point is there in talking of it -- unless it's to help us come to realize what is the truth. Who are we anyway, on the other hand, to believe we can impose limitations on Source? And what is the stillness and peace that transcends all our notions of stillness and peace? It does exist, though, and it is the creator of the hologram.

And what if the hologram is just a dream, a mistake, maybe?

chocolate

26th February 2014, 13:09

Funny, I wasn't going to intervene with the wonderful way you seem to be describing in fine English what I sometimes monologue in my mind, but somehow your 'words' made me.
Someone called me a see-r, and that exact word is the common point between my life over here and your post on the thread.

I lived for quite some time thinking that the way I see and experience things is the same for everyone, and somehow I expected everyone to understand me when I try to convey my 'ideas' (if they were to be ever 'my' ideas). But than, thanks to a constant clash of what I was seeing, and what people were telling me they were seeing and understanding, I came to the realization that something was terribly off (with me, at that particular moment years ago).
I obviously needed a lot of incentive to start to recognize the things for what they are with me personally.

Now it is getting easier to be with myself, but more difficult for everyone else around, if I ever decide to bring them into my understanding of things.

Reading your last few posts, I realized that is the case not only with me. But somehow, others seem to be experiencing the transition without that much trouble as I do.

I wrote on a thread yesterday how it would feel to have the ability to see beyond your immediate existence, but as far as I can tell, the majority of people don't necessarily read what you write, they read the way they are (I know, there is even an expression of similar sounding). And yet, when I decide not to be affected by the way what I see makes me feel physically, it becomes a very interesting and calming experience.

I don't do conscious astral travel, I tend to leave this to my higher guard to surprise me. But that is because I developed a very interesting close relationship with this higher person. That would mean that I can't be of much help here, sharing experience, but it is very enjoyable to read your posts, TraineeHuman.

chocolate

26th February 2014, 14:23

Tom Campbell explains, in the first video above, how physical reality must be both non-local and also not made up of anything resembling particles or objects.

[...]

What he means by saying that physical reality isn't object-like in nature is that it's ultimately not passive or inert at all, but active, and incorporating subjecthood -- much as in human beings there is both the "me" side but also -- and much more importantly -- the "I" side. Hence, he explains, physical reality isn't made of electrons or photons or quarks or strings. These are nothing more than metaphors.

I took the liberty to change color of what I feel is true for me.
I have come across threads where members want and insist on that science only, as experiments and proofs or scientific results, can bring them to the truth, while I cannot feel farther away from that notion.

Sorry for the small interruption, I will let you continue.

This thread is rather fantastic :). Thank you!

HaulinBananas

26th February 2014, 19:09

All of Tom Campbell's ideas are important, I suggest, because he's wise enough to recognize one thing. This is that the only way to reconcile Spirit and Matter/materialism is through finding the utmost and complete unification of the two. In that sense, his view that physics somehow encompasses "everything" whatsoever is justified, and helpful. It also opens a way for people of today to consider profound spiritual questions ultimately via just understanding the foundations of physics. The inner reconciled with the outer. . . .

Yes, I agree. After posting above, I felt strongly that I should have put a qualifying statement above where I mentioned about Tom Campbell and reincarnation that it was just one takeaway I got from a larger, well thought presentation of a larger reality. Just a tiny takeaway from a Big Picture.

I haven't been "trying" to do OBE like I was last year, but I continue to be interested in the topic, thus continue to find books and videos and audios to do with the topic, although I am exploring other ideas as well.

I have read in places that Hemi-Sync doesn't work, but saw this youtube clip, part of a series, that showed it working from the get go:

ehtZCemim0w

Perhaps something has changed, or maybe it was the setting, or maybe, as has been mentioned by other successful OBEers, this person often OBE'd as a child, remembering their activities, even as when an adult, looking back on their childhood (he mentioned in another clip of this series his childhood OBE experiences.) I only recall one OBE as a child, flying over my neighborhood at night, headed to the playground some blocks away. The last few years have been increasingly filled with paranormal or empathic or intuitive experiences or frequent synchronicities. Thus my continued interest.

I have, in the past few years, met people who have had spontaneous OBE and sincerely don't want to again, due to fear. I have met people in the past few years who claim to know me from ancient times and places, yet I have no such recollections. And none of them "remember" me from the same time and place, so I don't get any validation. One person I met, a friend of a friend, went into a strange channeling episode, of nearly an hour, as soon as I met him and claimed he, his new girlfriend (my friend) and I had all known each other for eons and keep meeting again. I think he may have been wanting to impress his new girlfriend and play on my ego though. I find it frustrating that I keep meeting people (in person) who have experiences and memories that I am working to understand - they do so spontaneously, and despite (a little) effort I don't.

One of the paranormal experiences I had a couple or few years ago might be called an OBE experience, except it happened in daytime, kind of spontaneously, and I was conscious of being both here, in my body, and there, both doing something else, and watching it at the same time. Which is kind of what is mentioned above in the video clip, too. (Of course, it could have been a very imaginative moment I was having too.) Maybe there would be two such experiences now that I think about it. I keep forgetting various paranormal experiences, and then something will remind me.

Well, TH, I hope you don't mind me posting a few things here, although I haven't much to offer in the way of genuine experiences or thoughtful insights. But, for a while it was getting quiet, and I didn't want you to think you were talking to yourself, I find both your thread and Sir Dipswitch's thread interesting. Thank you for your works.

TraineeHuman

27th February 2014, 07:19

One of the most honest and open-hearted and ego-free posts it has been my privilege to read in the Forum in some time, I believe, was made by chocolate yesterday, in the Spirituality thread 'The journey to discovering my true origins'. I'd like to quote most of it here, then do what I can manage to respond to it:

I have had quite some difficulty during my life, which I sometimes don't talk about, and I often express the idea that I would rather be somewhere else than here on Earth, but I guess the truth is, deep inside, I feel for so much that happens here that I will come again, by choice, not because of karma or anything else.
...
Yesterday I shared that I get to sense people's intentions and aspects of their life based on what they have written (on the forum or elsewhere), and that most of this it is painful for me, both for my emotions and feelings, and sometimes for my physical body. Especially if an animal or a plant is involved that suffers some trauma.
I seem to feel it all when it the correct state of mind. I have devised an explanation of why this happens, but since it involves also an explanation of what that reality is, I will not have the life force to write it all up in one go now, and will save it for the moment.

When I get to sense or see things, if I decide to share parts of them, most people feel threatened or violated and can become rather offensive toward me (or so it seems sometimes), so I just learned to not express much. Only on some very rare occasions as this one here, or if I decide someone needs some help, and by expressing how I feel that will be beneficial to them.
As I usually say I tend to be well around nature and animals much more than when humans get involved. There are exception of course, and I also do put effort to stay somehow inside the social situations. It is as if i need the interactions, but sometimes fail to cope with the results.

At the beginning I wasn't so well equipped to deal with this whole life here, and I encountered a few rough patches, but I survived them. There were family/parents issues, addictions, depression, and so forth in this colorful realm of life.

These past few years it started to get better, and easier when I learned to detach myself from almost all situations and all people involved that seem to be hurt me. In a way I became fear-less, which was liberating. At that moment I also started to recognize that what I was experiencing as being too different was actually quite okay to have, and that i am not alone in this.

I know I have a very strange unconditional love for most people which sometimes they misplaced or misunderstand as a weakness or low self esteem, but not in a spiritual or new age kind of a way (the Love term I mean). It is rather a special light feeling. I seem not to be able to find the right words now.

So whoever reads this, thinking how threatening it might be for someone to see more of the whole picture, you should know that it is not a position of feeling 'special', 'superior' (some mentioned term as elitist), ET rather than earthling, or different. I can think of it in terms of understanding and sensing probably a bit more than the usual. It is not at all that easy job, because I personally experience a lot of discomfort. But I am also learning to distance myself from the physical component of pain, and it may become easier with more practice.
I have to add that even though my soul or spirit or whatever you choose to call it is not from Earth, the connection to Earth is very strong, if not stronger than with many others that consider themselves native to the planet.

I'm replying to this post here because its primary theme is perhaps that of what to do with heightened sensitivity, and this was discussed a little early on in this thread.. Heightened sensitivity means that we feel pain much more strongly. If a person learns to astral project effectively, or to meditate effectively, or simply gets their life truly right, it's inevitable that they'll be faced with a great fineness of sensitivity inside themselves. All the more so if that individual is a Volunteer from some more harmonious world or planet, as chocolate and I certainly are. Also, I hope Freed Fox gets to read this, because it addresses a major problem for him also.

Early in this thread it was mentioned how the solution to the pain that great sensitivity brings is, in short, to learn to detach from one's identity as someone who's sensitive. (That's the only solution I know, Freed Fox!) Towards the end of her/his post, chocolate mentions coming to this realization. In this thread there was considerable mention of detachment mainly between November 2012 and April 2013, and that's why I'm responding to you in this thread, chocolate.

I can say: "Me too" to almost everything you say, chocolate. Yes, being a Volunteer doesn't mean feeling special, basically. It does mean feeling so connected, so intimate with everything and everyone. I've always instinctively loved to treat animals just as if they were people. So easy to share affection with them, without complications. And trees can teach one all sorts of wise things you probably won't get from other people. And yes, it was a problem in my life too, for several decades at least, that others would try to treat me like a victim sometimes because they noticed I was open or vulnerable -- and I was that way purely because inside I felt and knew that profound connectedness, that enormous intimacy with all, including all people.

But what sorts of masks to put on to protect myself from such exploitation? Some of them, for many years, involved looking like I was very detached in certain ways that others would sometimes interpret as uncaring. How to explain that I did so deeply care, underneath the protective mask? As you say, chocolate, hide it all inside, because others will feel threatened because you're too intense or too seemingly "strange" inside. At least others would eventually work out that I considered myself friend to absolutely everyone else -- so they'd come to deduce I must be friendly after all, despite the detachment.

And then there's the whole issue of being "different" at every turn, often without ever wanting to be, and feeling, as I say, so intimately connected, and therefore ordinary, inside. I guess I've already written about that a little in the other thread. It's taken me a few decades, but these days I've aleady learnt to look at everything as "ordinary", no dramas, and even if I act in some "special" way I seem to get away with it now, because people can see that I deeply accept myself as being that way -- and I guess they just think: "Well, that's just what he's like. He probably can't help being that way."

And wow, did I have a painful childhood and adolescence and twenties. To make it worse, at sixteen I realized that who I was was the entire universe -- which made it kind of tough to have to play the role of being someone in particular, and that seemed so incredibly trivial and petty and crazy sometimes. Then in my twenties I was expertly taught astral projection -- I believe mostly by ETs -- just to rub it in that that the real I was something other than what was going on in the physical world and society. Looking back on it now, though, I truly believe my life was richer for having not just the physical (and mental and emotional) side, but also a "double" beyond all that. Though it was tougher to learn to cope with both, after several or more decades the rewards finally came, and they were and are sweet, at least in my case.

chocolate

27th February 2014, 11:54

I am quickly stopping by to say that I have taken the hint. :)
The only reason for my interruption here is to say that I am very grateful for all the effort you have put into explaining your way of seeing the process.
I am at page 3, post 55, and will continue on diligently. It is actually not so much of an effort to read along, but rather a pleasant experience, I can only smile at the realization of how similar sometimes our lives are, and how similar some roads seem to appear.

I managed to find your way or wording perfect for my level of understanding, and my English (I am not a native English speaker). I am a female at this level here (mentioning this just for ease of communication).

I sensed a great level of feeling 'safe' on your threads, and that is the main reason why I decided also to share some bits (not that I haven't plastered parts of me on some other threads). You probably will understand what I mean by saying this.

I have grown to learn that I must be careful with my trust, but in some way I am allowing you to come in and do whatever feels best to you while I am travelling the worlds. I will take precautions, some of which you have described, but I don't have much fear, at least that I know of.

Later on when I feel the inspiration will share more.

My best ways of deep mediation is gi gong standing warrior mediation, and running long distances. I am about to embark on some of the latter, hoping that the picture will get clear once again.

Thank you ,TH for everything you have done on this forum, for all of us who needed to find it, to read it and see ourselves in your words.

chocolate

1st March 2014, 10:30

TraineeHuman, :)
I tried to suppress my impulse to write more in this thread out of fear that I might unnecessary dilute the almost perfect feeling of bliss here. But you have made few comments that I just felt compelled to respond to, to share some thoughts of my own. I will try to be brief, but not sure if it will work (being brief).

~~~

As far back as I can think of, I am one who remembers dreams, a great percentage of them. I have reached page 10 of the thread, and I learned a few more concepts, so I will not repeat anything that has been already said, but mostly how I experience things.
I had one particular dream that I will remember for ever.
I was a kid still when it happened. In the dream it was some sort of a night. I was walking on a wide desolate filed, and all around me there were killed people, parts of them, heads, torsos, arms, spread around, in some sort of bags, or not. I woke up scared, and since that moment I was afraid of the dark. But with time, and some more dramatic periods I reached the point where I read that the possible meaning of the dream is that it might show a breaking of a programming, so to speak, a rebirth of the psyche. When I was reading the Horus Ra thread I came to some sort of the same conclusion.

When I read this:

I experience quite a lot OBE's. Not completely sure if it's DNA memory direct access or real body spirit split. HT are you descendent from "royal" bloodline? This would explain why...

Yes, my mother belonged to the Merovingian and Franco-Prussian royal bloodline. I was born in Australia, but she was a migrant from a country where, up till the start of WW2, her clan had been probably the most powerful and the richest in the country.

But, can you tell us why this would be relevant?

I guess I have seen "genetic" memories coming via my cells and DNA, but as far as I'm aware that's quite different from most of the OB perceptions/awarenesses I experience.

[...]

Not long ago I had same your belief, body spirit split and everything you describe so accurately.

However, I changed my POV when I was told very simply, there is only genetic memory passing from generation to generation (the bloodline).
In essence, you are almost a copy of all that was before you. [...]

I realized that it might have parts of truth inside, but I do resonated with my own experience and know that the strictly mechanical memory passing can be broken and transformed.
My father is a strange guy. He had shared with me some thoughts that at the time i never though he would.
He is a natural in OBE. He laughed when explained how he would watch at himself sleeping in his bed, and stories like that. He also has ' healed' me with his mind alone, while I have been a baby. I think it is possible some genetic predisposition plays a certain role in one's make up, but that is only part of the real story (for me).

~~~

When it comes to dreams, I have managed to except meaning from them in a very strange way. I know for myself that nothing I dream has a literal meaning, and that seemingly unrelated dreams are connected. Yesterday I had a situation when I would see flashes of dreams forming a picture or a concept. That is how I managed to know certain things about certain issues I had raised in my mind.
TH, your exercise about posing a question and waiting for the first answer I have done in my life many times. I just did not know that this can be view from the POV of Out of Body, until I read your posts about it. :)

Another way of finding answers is when I learned Remote Viewing. It was a crash course, a practical training, and without going into much details, I can firmly say that the base of the process is what you have described as posing the question in a stilled mind. Many people can do it without the intellectualizing of it, including myself, but I did connect some more dots for myself reading your posts.

~~~

Few days ago I found an article describing a possible explanation of why some people remember dreams. Science believes that this is connected to more blood flow to certain areas of the brain of some people. Could be true, considering my own genes. I also know for a fact that I have an unnatural amount of blood flow in my thyroid region. The doctor though I have an autoimmune disease, and he almost made me physically sick when I 'tried' to imagine it.
Needless to say, I took precautions and don't think I have Hashimoto's Thyroid Disease. But it is possible I have unnatural supply of blood in some areas of my brain, and possibly the whole body. I just will not go into any medical examination. If I can help it.

I will go into more detail of what I think of energy flows and grounding (related to my own physicality) in the next post.

chocolate

1st March 2014, 11:23

I find sometimes people conceptualize that thinking of your own experiences (past, present) is some sort of a narcissism (like saying "get off your bike, TH, would you").
For me, knowing my odds and my adventures in this not-so-perfect perfect world, I have done this only as means to understand. Otherwise I wouldn't have made it so far.
I have come to realize that one definitely needs lots of time to pass before being able to realize how everything is connected in retrospect.
When I opened the forum page today, I felt a sudden sharp feeling of sadness, until I thought of this thread. And that is a very honest opinion. I don't want to burden it with too much expectation, because I already know what is inside, and even if no one else writes in it, except for the ones that are still here, it is perfectly fine with me. I need no more than that.

~~~

I was once a young adult being totally confused about why so much doesn't make sense. Until I understood that I was trying to make sense of the outside's world 'sense', and it didn't go that well at the time. I let parents, relatives and friends tell me what is what and why, and they almost killed me (in all kinds of meaning), with their attempt to project their views on me. Good thing is my inner connection to my inner self, higher self, or in whichever you decide to title it, was never broken completely.

I have witnessed here people coming and going, swinging left and right, and it always puzzled me why they seem to loose their center all the time. One of the reasons I resonated with what has been written here is because it comes from a very natural and practical approach, which is what I have also developed after the initial years of feeling out of it.

~~~

The way I go about life, in the world of taking care of one's body, is based on few activities and philosophies that work for me.
I am coming from sport, so the physical activity is a natural way for me to get centered in a way or to fly around, depending on my needs.
I combine this with yoga, but that is not the yoga today, though by the western mind. I have learned from a real person, without any payment involved, and I managed to let it all in the way it has been supposed to be. I sometimes am surprised when people come to the realization of how to breathe properly, and why it is important.
I don't do a routine daily, since I value my inner child's attempts to do it differently all the time, but when I need to, I know what to do.

~~~

The same with the eating habits. I witness constantly the flow of pros and cons of being vegetarian/vegan/paleo, etc. I learned the base of it that when I was 16. I do read and try different approaches when compelled these days, but I have my center in that area, and now I just avoid all threads and information of that type flying around (here).
I am a vegetarian, and have been such for 20 some years. Whatever that would mean to some people. It comes from my deep (non-current-scientific!) understanding of how this world and I need to work together. And I am going to continue to be as such until I discover that I need to change it, to adapt to something new. I don't 'hate' people who eat meat, nor I 'love' people who don't eat meat.
But I do admire people who know where their balance lies.

I don't do drugs, of any sort (weed, cigarettes, alcohol, etc. etc), despite the fact I had a training in shamanism, or whatever you may call it. I value plants, for what they are, energetically speaking, and use them as teas and seasoning, but I don't smoke, or do anything fancier than that.
I am mentioning it here after reading some posts from the past.
From my own understanding, nothing is better than the state of 'clear' mind.

Except for chocolate and coffee. :)
But I do understand my body with its complex signals, after years of studies (!), and don't over-do anything in any way.

~~~

When it comes to grounding I value mostly gi gong.

[...]
I find Q'i Gong very powerful, and would recommend it to everyone. Even though it's exercise, it's still a very valid form of meditation -- which is quite a paradox in itself. I love to do walking q'i gong. But I don't do it much because fifteen minutes of it it leaves me sort of intoxicated with bliss for hours afterwards. I haven't met anybody else on whom it has quite that effect. It's great for anybody, though. A woman in China cured herself of very advanced cancer just through practicing it. And, it's a great way to safely learn to begin to bi-locate. That's because you're doing the exercise, and therefore in your body, yet the energizing is so strong that your energy body gets stronger than normal, and hence you're more aware of it than normally.
Now you have met me as another one. :)

I seem to not be able to sit in mediation the yogi's way out of discomfort in my knees and legs. But I can do a standing qi gong mediation, and it feels amazing. The secret of this is that when you breathe in, the air (if the body is aligned correctly) goes straight to your abdomen, and feeds your center of balance in the region of the second chakra.
{ I have some medical qi gong videos available to anyone who finds this to be of interest. Send me an email. I don't allow the option of having private messages as a way of communication here, out of respect for my own peace, having some unpleasant encounters in the past }

One important thing I need to mention is that with any 'running energy' one does on one-self, the most important stage is to run your energy back to your center (second chakra). (That is how I 'ground' or actually more of a 'center' myself.) Otherwise there is a very real danger of disrupted energy balance of the body. Mentioning this in case someone is new to it.
I have learned it from a T'ai chi ch'uan teacher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T'ai_chi_ch'uan

[ I though I am the last one to discover that practice (qi gong). Here on this forum people have expressed opinions about it, that I can see come from a very shallow, if not nonexistent understanding of the practice. Not in this thread, but in many other threads.
That is not something that in any way can affect the way I feel about it. Because nothing replaces the sense of the actual practice, no amount of intellect can measure to the sense of being in touch with the 'real' world. ]

I read yesterday another thread ( I will not mention the name intentionally), devoted to grounding and breathing. For me the energy, when in need of grounding, standing up right, needs to run from the center of the body to the ground, not necessarily running through the legs or through the tail bone. The real energy stream runs naturally through the middle between the legs (sorry for the uncomfortable association, but that is how it is, not because I say so).

With that I can conclude my second post in sharing.
A bit lengthy, but not everyone is prone to 'mind' communication. :)

After this I will come with two important questions from my own need to discover more of the world of (conscious awake and aware) OB. I seem to love my sleep, so the only way to have an aware Out of Body seems to elude me right now.

*I will write my next bit tomorrow.*

TraineeHuman

2nd March 2014, 01:39

When it comes to dreams, I have managed to except meaning from them in a very strange way. I know for myself that nothing I dream has a literal meaning, and that seemingly unrelated dreams are connected. Yesterday I had a situation when I would see flashes of dreams forming a picture or a concept. That is how I managed to know certain things about certain issues I had raised in my mind.

As I've mentioned before, the higher a dimension one goes to (and most dreams, I would say, occur in a higher dimension than the physical), the less specific things get. This means the meanings can't be entirely literal.

And as Tom Campbell explains at great length in the second video in post #1491, although higher-dimensional "forces" in some ways have some control over what happens in the physical, it's also true that what manifests in the physical is often random even though the more probable is still the more likely.

chocolate

2nd March 2014, 11:18

I think before I pose my questions I can do more of the exercises, and if I get to encounter more problems will come back and share them.
So far I managed to get one glimpse of everything while experimenting with shaman journeying, when I encounter the vibrations and the pull, and I think after that I managed to get a brief Out of body.
Yesterday I got a very strange light-headed-ness, and felt what should be the solar plexus pull (as you have described it), but I think I am a bit an opinionated fella, and have to figure out my own practical ways.
I will do so, at this stage there isn't all that much else to keep me occupied/ to keep me interested.
I also do read this thread quite carefully.
I know of a few more exercises, and I am certain after some experimentation things will align themselves.
It is a sort of a familiar feeling, that I still haven't gotten to experience it fully, but I recognize the road to there.

Thank you, TraineeHuman.

chocolate

4th March 2014, 12:10

TraineeHuman, I am still reading your posts from the past, and although I try not to comment, after a few moments these past few days I came to the realization I actually have a problem staying grounded more than having an OB experience, because I am mostly travelling, as you have described it in lengths in past posts. I am not saying I am a special kind of special, but that could be partially true.

I am quite susceptible to external influence, coming from a non-physical 'dimensions', and sometimes that could be a problem for me.
Few days ago I experience that type of an influence, which in itself I am sure was only beneficial to me, but it was also very dramatic for me. I thought I was about to collapse on the floor, so I had to lay in my bed for a while, than do a standing mediation, and drink and eat some food.
Later on I think I recognized what was happening, but it felt so strong at the time, that initially had me in a bit of a panic.
It has happened before in a milder version, which helped me deal with it better.

Thinking back I have the sense I am mostly floating around instead of staying well centered in my body. Probably that is a reason I so much enjoy physical activity, it grounds me better than anything else, or my sleeping magnetic cover, which also gets my inner self well inside opposed to floating above me.
This is probably related to the fact that I stay in concept world more than in physical around here (connected to my work, my inner explorations, or the way I just am). Or because I feel better at home out there than 'in here'.
In my past this has lead to some very difficult experiences, one of which was (almost, if not a complete) NDE. The way I feel right now, I sense I am not very interested in the 'living' as much as in continuing upward (or for the most honest out there, I more welcome physical death than physical living, not in a suicidal way, but as a means of ending something that doesn't feel quite right here and now). This is something completely opposed to the 'roller coaster' way of life, mentioned on occasion. but to see me in that light one needs to understand me better, and words are not the best tool for it. I think I can continue in that fashion, longer than on the up-and down kind of way, which proved to be unnatural for me in the past. I have a great joy being around stable, balanced individuals and situations, and have real trouble dealing with instability in every form or shape.

I am also not entirely sure I experience the internal loop-dialogue you have mentioned (the repeated reminder of activities related to physical survival). That is one of the reasons I could have been hit a few times in my life walking around and crossing streets. These days I have somehow switched an inner protection while navigating my movements. It keeps me safe on most occasions.
It hasn't been like that all the time, but now, because I am in a period when I don't need to fit into a physical reality of constant work and travel, I feel relaxed to be my normal self, and that in itself had a profound effect on healing wounds and fixing externally-created inner problems.

I certainly enjoyed the 'descension' part you have mentioned on several occasions. It is how I feel about the process, too.

I wanted to write a few things about Tom Campbell's take on the world (well, my own take on what I see), but I am not sure it belongs out in the open, or fits this thread precisely, so if I manage to write anything, I will probably send it as a pm.
I certainly have no desire to write about it on the forum. May be I learned a few more things while being around, but one thing I sensed is that almost everyone seems to be in a need of being distracted, repeatedly and constantly, which doesn't correspond to the way I feel, so I just don't see myself fitting into that reality much longer. I tried to fit in, but it created a few problems here, as it has been with me in the physical times and again, and I realized, I need to fit no more.

I will see how this comes along.

TraineeHuman

5th March 2014, 04:52

these past few days I came to the realization I actually have a problem staying grounded more than having an OB experience ...

I am quite susceptible to external influence, coming from a non-physical 'dimensions', and sometimes that could be a problem for me.
Few days ago I experience that type of an influence, which in itself I am sure was only beneficial to me, but it was also very dramatic for me. I thought I was about to collapse on the floor, so I had to lay in my bed for a while, than do a standing mediation, and drink and eat some food.
Later on I think I recognized what was happening, but it felt so strong at the time, that initially had me in a bit of a panic.
It has happened before in a milder version, which helped me deal with it better.

Thinking back I have the sense I am mostly floating around instead of staying well centered in my body. Probably that is a reason I so much enjoy physical activity, it grounds me better than anything else, or my sleeping magnetic cover, which also gets my inner self well inside opposed to floating above me.
This is probably related to the fact that I stay in concept world more than in physical around here (connected to my work, my inner explorations, or the way I just am). Or because I feel better at home out there than 'in here'.
In my past this has lead to some very difficult experiences, one of which was (almost, if not a complete) NDE. The way I feel right now, I sense I am not very interested in the 'living' as much as in continuing upward (or for the most honest out there, I more welcome physical death than physical living, not in a suicidal way, but as a means of ending something that doesn't feel quite right here and now). This is something completely opposed to the 'roller coaster' way of life, mentioned on occasion. but to see me in that light one needs to understand me better, and words are not the best tool for it. I think I can continue in that fashion, longer than on the up-and down kind of way, which proved to be unnatural for me in the past. I have a great joy being around stable, balanced individuals and situations, and have real trouble dealing with instability in every form or shape.

I am also not entirely sure I experience the internal loop-dialogue you have mentioned (the repeated reminder of activities related to physical survival). That is one of the reasons I could have been hit a few times in my life walking around and crossing streets. These days I have somehow switched an inner protection while navigating my movements. It keeps me safe on most occasions.
It hasn't been like that all the time, but now, because I am in a period when I don't need to fit into a physical reality of constant work and travel, I feel relaxed to be my normal self, and that in itself had a profound effect on healing wounds and fixing externally-created inner problems.

I certainly enjoyed the 'descension' part you have mentioned on several occasions. It is how I feel about the process, too.

.... May be I learned a few more things while being around, but one thing I sensed is that almost everyone seems to be in a need of being distracted, repeatedly and constantly, which doesn't correspond to the way I feel, so I just don't see myself fitting into that reality much longer. I tried to fit in, but it created a few problems here, as it has been with me in the physical times and again, and I realized, I need to fit no more.

I will see how this comes along.

Yes! Being too enamored with higher realms and not staying fully in your physical body. That's a really big one. In retrospect, it's what my very life used to be about, for over half my life. No doubt the details were quite different from your life, but basically it was that one issue. I've mentioned before that I've had over a hundred spiritual and/or psychological teachers that I worked with intensively for months at least in each case. And just about every last one of them hounded me so much and seemingly picked on me hugely and singled me out in what I usually regarded as unfair ways at the time. But they intuitively knew roughly what they were doing. Even my mother would forever nag me about my supposed lack of practicality. Actually I have Capricorn rising, which does give me some practicality. But I'm sure what she meant too was that I was somehow so enamored with the transcendental, and certainly the non-physical, that I would inevitably neglect certain physical requirements that it wasn't in my best interest, in this world, to ignore. And feedback from friends and acquaintances too. Things like: "You're not really as physically clumsy as you seem to be determined to act." Not that I experienced accidents with traffic or whatever like you did, chocolate.

After I got into regular astral, then mental projection, it got even worse than before, for at least ten years. It's kind of ironic what happens once one does learn how to very readily get into higher realms. Others may have to work for years to begin to do the same. Yet the temptation to then not live totally in the physical world becomes so awfully great. I guess many people who experience NDEs experience something of very much the same thing while they're in the NDE. They don't want to come back into this vale of suffering. But they do, usually because it seems they agree they have little or no choice at the time. I've observed that psychotic individuals are simply individuals who've permanently and unknowingly thrown the "off" switch and in effect separated from their body even though they're not physically dead. But we need to be stronger than that. Escapism like that is too easy -- not that I'm denying that psychotic individuals bring great pain on themselves.

Along with the (often unconscious or only half-perceived) alienation I had from staying fully in the physical prison planet world, for decades I felt a strong alienation from work. Not that I didn't usually work hard, but I always felt that I deserved much better jobs and that I deserved to be paid or to make considerably more. After all, wasn't I subjecting myself to degrading ridiculousness and pettiness -- and for what? For money, but that seemed so unimportant.

I believe an ultimately somewhat similar resistance to having to be in the prison planet lies behind most people's (the majority of the population's) failure to stay grounded much of the time -- but quite subconsciously, for most.

Ultimately, descension, in its fullest forms, is an extremely long process with many stages and twists. So many. At what point, if ever, to give one example, does an individual come to realize that all their suffering comes from, and is equivalent to, their failure to totally accept reality -- including the physical reality they find themselves in? However, it seems to me that descension is also tied very closely to liberation from having to necessarily return to this physical world. How else can one truly fully accept and understand the life of other individuals?

TraineeHuman

5th March 2014, 05:21

I wanted to write a few things about Tom Campbell's take on the world (well, my own take on what I see), but I am not sure it belongs out in the open, or fits this thread precisely, so if I manage to write anything, I will probably send it as a pm.
I certainly have no desire to write about it on the forum. May be I learned a few more things while being around, but one thing I sensed is that almost everyone seems to be in a need of being distracted, repeatedly and constantly, which doesn't correspond to the way I feel, so I just don't see myself fitting into that reality much longer. I tried to fit in, but it created a few problems here, as it has been with me in the physical times and again, and I realized, I need to fit no more.

I will see how this comes along.

I wonder if part of what you don't want to discuss publicly even though Tom Campbell speaks about it has to do with the spiritually enlightened understanding. When I was sixteen I really did experience spiritual enlightenment. I strongly suspect Tom Campbell has experienced it too. One of the most central insights that true enlightenment brings is that reality is not in any way like a body, or like an object, or many bodies, or objects. Anyone who denies this surely hasn't experienced true enlightenment. It's as simple as that, I'm afraid. Jeffrey (some, if not all, of whose threads have been extraordinary and wonderful) has recently started a thread where he describes everything in the universe as a type of "body", and I believe he means to include all levels of the non-physical in that. What could I say in response to that? What could any enlightened person say?

The Buddha tried to explain this, and most of the unenlightened completely misinterpreted what he was saying, both in his day and even today. Then the Buddha reincarnated as J. Krishnamurti. I once saw a video of K. talking about the very same subject at great length. Present at the talk were at least five members of the Philosophy Departments of Oxford and Cambridge Universities. And even they completely misunderstood. They kept "deducing" that K. was denying that there is anything that survives death. He insisted he wasn't denying that, at all.

I could go on and on with examples from genuinely enlightened individuals. If such an individual takes the trouble to accurately conceptualize the most central insight in enlightenment, one way to describe it is as follows. The concept of "substance" -- which is the most central and basic concept of Western thought and Western philosophy -- totally and radically fails to capture true reality. Instead, we need a foundational concept like "pure relatedness" or something like that. I greatly admire the way Tom Campbell is trying to guide people towards that realization based purely on very honest, tough-minded analysis of the implications of what quantum physics and twentieth century physics have uncovered.

TraineeHuman

5th March 2014, 08:20

Many individuals have communicated to me or to us that they've been making real progress in some (inner) areas, but they find that astral travel/projection eludes them, or only happens rarely no matter what they try.

On the best evidence I've found so far, I still consider that the best and safest preparation is to develop a very solid "skill" level in meditation first. Secondly, though, I remain convinced that the best way to learn is through direct "transmission" from someone else who has mastered astral projection. But what do I mean by direct "transmission"?

That term is familiar to practitioners (terrible term!) of Buddhism and Zen and at least some types of Yoga and Sufism. For instance, the Buddha chose his successor when he gave his totally silent Flower "Sermon". The Buddha held up a sunflower and communicated silently, nonverbally. He wasn't giving a "sermon" on appreciating flowers, of course. And his successor was the one who was able to very fully "receive" everything he was transmitting. I'd like to describe some of what this means to me in the light of my own experience. Also, in Zen the highest wisdom is considered to be passed on entirely through some kind of silent one-to-one transmission.

There's an unspoken rule that any meditation or esoteric guru -- Eastern or Western --, and almost any spiritual teacher or healer or whatever, "transmits" to everyone in the audience when he or she gives a public lecture or class or darshan, etc. What I have found this means in practice is that such an individual will be an advanced meditator and will spend perhaps several hours in meditation just prior to the lecture/class/darshan/discussion. As a result, those attending will definitely perceive a reflection of something higher within themselves. The effects of that will typically last for three days. During that time they will feel more joy and inner integration and peace, and will feel very good when they wake the next three mornings.

I've researched this a little, and found that the effects only last for three days or so. Still, during that time the individual does have a special window to make some personal breakthroughs -- if they truly face themselves. But there's a strong tradition, particularly in the East, that to sit before a very enlightened being -- even in a large group -- is supposedly of extreme benefit on its own. I believe I've found this is not true for most, unfortunately. On the other hand, after whole man-years spent developing the ability to "read" any person nonverbally -- and I don't mean on any intellectual interpretation of body language, but I do mean directly nonverbal -- I can say as follows. A person like myself can indeed "read" and absorb a great deal of what is being transmitted in such a situation. That can indeed be hugely life-changing -- if I take action very soon after, if I put the higher consciousness into manifestation in my life in the world. I have been in situations where either only I, or I and a small number of others, could "read" a full version of the transmission. In each case the guru or healer etc knew exactly who had received how much.

The good news is, it does seem to be possible for the entire skill of astral travel to be "transmitted" directly if you can find the right teacher, in person. And you don't need to be super-aware or anything like that, either. When I was twenty-nine I would go to a weekly psychic circle where the 80+ year old teacher could somehow "lift" the entire class into the astral, in no more than one or two minutes, and take them traveling there as a group. Maybe that teacher did have a rare skill level. But everyone who came to her weekly class would travel successfully, usually even on the first night they came -- though the nausea in the stomach and the intensity around the heart would take some time to be outgrown.

Anyway, I'm here to say that such teachers obviously seem to exist. I'd like to encourage everyone to seek one out. It didn't take much for me to find that particular lady. I just had to ask the right person who they could recommend for a psychic development class. Mind you, if the class is very expensive, I'd be very suspicious. One class, or two at most, is plenty for such a teacher to demonstrate to you that they undeniably do have the ability to "lift" you into astral travel. If they don't, walk away. If they practice some kind of "guided visualization", in my experience that's a sure sign of a lack of true talent and you should keep away.

chocolate

5th March 2014, 11:13

TraineeHuman, than you for the careful examination of what I presented.

The reason why I don't want to discuss what I feel, or think, regarding my understanding of reality, out in the open as on a forum, is a very personal reason, that I've only felt so far (without the necessary logic to back it up).
But you managed to clear it for me in a simple way.
I guess my hesitation to speak comes from the concept that some thoughts, or truths, or whatever one might call them, need to be communicated only to people who can appreciate and understand them fully, without distorting them in any damaging way, as you have described already (Buddha and the flower). You know how many people feel about Krishnamurti? In their logical explanations he is nothing, but a charlatan. I never saw him in this way, but it is a know fact, that sometimes one needs to have the necessary base of understanding to view reality in the intended way.
Same can be said for many past 'masters'.

I know how that process of non-verbal transmission of ideas/concepts feels like, because I personally experienced it when I was initiated in Reiki by a person higher on the Reiki practice path. It felt completely right at the time, although my logical self was suspicious. I feel the same constantly with some normal people, like me, given the opportunity to meet them in person. I myself do it also, I have been told.

At present I feel all knowledge is accessible for anyone, but not everyone is open for it in the same way. That is why, if I start talking about my 'whatever understanding', I would take away the choice of everyone else to get to their own conclusion(s). And I think life is just about that, finding your own explanations and concepts that work for your circumstances.

I feel sometimes compelled to do some talking, when I see people worried about this place (the Earth) being a prison, or that 'life' is a form of a prison, or that it is a farming operation, about all those mean aliens, and dark overlords, and so forth.

From what I have come to see, it isn't literary that, at all. I know I am not 'enlightened', so I cannot say, you have to trust me, because I am the enlightened master.

Besides, I am really tired of everyone (except you here!) using words with so elusive and subjective meaning, that the moment I see those words I switch off completely from what has been presented. One of the reasons I am still reading your thread is mainly because you have taken the long road to clarify a lot in the process from your perspective. I may not understand everything fully, or at least some parts do seem more fuzzy than others, but I appreciate the care and the respect for the subject and for the viewer/reader.

I read through Jeffrey's posts yesterday, and I saw where he is heading (which is a path many have explored). But even though many have walked before him, or me, or us on the same path, every time a new person advances on it, more trees release the scent and the leaves of spring, as you had written about it some time in the past.

In my understanding I can say I am on Tom Campbell's side, except for a major detail. He mentions the computer with the button, but he spends less time talking about the person pressing the button. That is where I would start. I have a very conceptual, non-materialistic material explanation. A lot of what I feel has been expressed in buddhism, or so I think having some limited knowledge of that. So my way is not unique, or first of its kind, but it seems to be very practical and gives me hope in times when hope seems to be lost for many people.
I have my trust in life that if I have to speak up, I will be given the opportunity, or the like-minded people to share this with.

I am practicing my astral travel ways, TraineeHuman. It will come the day when I will be fully 'out there' :)

chocolate

5th March 2014, 12:09

When I was reading your few posts today, I had the sense of a silent question being posed, so I will try to say as much as I can, spread probably through out several posts/days.

Recently I read an article about an artificial hand being developed that would give the sense of touch to people who have lost their natural limbs.
When we think about our bodies, I think we need to think about sensations and information more than actual material parts. For me the human body is like that glove with sensors being attached to it, so that the hand and the mind can experience the current reality in which the glove is positioned. In certain perspective, yes, one can think of the body as a prison, if one feels that way temporarily, but in my own reality the body is the sensor that creates the whole experience. Sometimes it is not 'perfect' the way we think we need it to be, but if one learns to be in communication with the body, one can see its real importance and role in this existence. That is why we need to take proper care of the physical, and of the physiological aspects of our experiential parts here.

I have read in the past the idea of 'the suffering', but for me it is not exactly suffering, not at all. Please, note than those words come form someone who is not all that excited about staying alive! So imagine how it should feel if someone is well in tune with his body, and feels the surge for life. :)

Having said all of the above, I need to note that your explanations about the relationship between body - mental self - soul - ego - Higher self, etc (I am not correct in my labeling here and in the correct sequence, just mentioning what comes to my mind), I will not repeat, because I am not an expert in those areas. I sense most of what I understood from your words seems valid for me.

Tom Campbell describes this reality as digital, but I see it as an expression of electromagnetism, as if our holding forces are the same that are created by the computer in his explanations. I cannot use words as digital, or holographic anymore, but they seem to run really close to what seems true for me.
With that clarified, I will use the concept of 'virtual reality simulation' for our Earth life here. For me it is more of a concept than a real material 'thing'.

Our lives are a duration of this simulation, while our bodies are the shells/avatars/ that the mind above us (the one that is pressing the button of the computer so to speak) occupies as a glove to sense and experience. That is how from the perspective of this higher person above our time here has a meaning only while we are being functional, and when the stage of this simulation runs its course for each individual person here, and for his corresponding operating mind above, we return to where we come from.

Tom Campbell explains in great deal the rendering process of the simulation, but in order to understand him one needs to have done that in real life. With a little bit of advanced imagination a still rendering turns into a full life circle easily. I work in architecture, and making renderings of spaces is what I do, so this concept is easily accessible for me. But I cannot explain everything to someone who hasn't seen the logic of it, I guess.

Having said all of the above, nothing new as you have seem, I can easily say that this 'life' we have agreed to experience here is not a punishment, or a prison, or a suffering, although it may seem like that sometimes form our current life situation 'on Earth'.
It is a just a way to experience. And the part that does matter, the one thing that animates the bodies, apart from the electrical signals of the shells, is not from this reality, and cannot be accessed by this reality. Thus all the talk about the mean aliens trapping our souls, is in a way a simplistic way of skewing the real thing. That is the part I also have seen you have come to understand, and I am not afraid to state the same on your thread. But I will not go and speak about it anywhere else, because I am not in the correct state of mind to battle with others.

I sometimes see this image of a large room or space, with our Higher Selves sitting/standing/being, around engaged in the virtual reality experience.

I will end my post for today here, and will try to pick up the subject tomorrow. If you, TH, are okay with me doing so.

:)

TraineeHuman

5th March 2014, 12:48

I should probably explain that when I recently used the phrase "prison planet" and also "vale of suffering", I basically meant that from the (illusory) point of view of most people , life in the physical world really is rather like a prison sentence. But yes, I agree that's not the truth, as you eloquently explain, chocolate.

I also partly had in mind, though, how life in the physical world does bring physical bodily pain at times. I recently turned 64, and the older one gets the more one has little choice, if one is sensible, but to pay great attention to one's health. And even then there are physical discomforts or pains or weaknesses that one isn't always totally free of, at an age such as mine.

Also, I see enlightenment as just the beginning, the first step, in a way. Just a return to our true state. I've seen so much nonsense written about enlightenment, such as "Anyone who says they're enlightened ipso facto can't be", and so on. Yes, sadly it seems to be beyond many people's reach, and yes, it takes enormous work for most to get there. But really, it's just the first step. There's such a long journey to go through beyond that point, with so many twists and stages along the way. Which is why I don't indulge in embarrassment or inhibition about mentioning that I've reached that first step. Big deal. By the way, your explanation that you know that all psychological/emotional suffering is ultimately unreal, or based on misperception of reality, is surely the essence of an enlightened take on things.

chocolate

5th March 2014, 20:22

I feel compelled to clarify I found nothing in your words to disagree with, and everything I tried to referred to in my last post was based on what I have read on the forum as a whole, and what I have experienced in my own life, again as a whole. It might have sounded a bit differently, but I didn't have anything specific in mind. I operate almost always form a point of view that is more general. That could often lead to a bit of a misunderstanding.

The more correct phrase probably to start my post could have been to say that I felt a silent approval to write my opinion.

I still hold my position of being not-enlightened.
I come from science, several of them, and I come from non-religion, several of them, but I did not find much excitement, or should I say, comfort in any single one of them, until I managed to take pieces from everything to make my own picture. That is one of the reasons I don't try to follow any scientific approach when it comes to figuring out this life. It seems to me we need certain amount of science, and spirituality, in order to reach a level of wisdom, if I may, or a level of simplicity in the way we think of the whole.

Yesterday I was looking at the top of the forum page, where it is said 'where science and spirituality meet", and I felt how all my doubts, and all remaining traces of feeling unsettled, evaporated.
It was a good feeling. I wish more of us could experience it, or I wish I could share that feeling with everybody.
Again, I don't refer to you, TH, for I sense you feel in much of the same way as I do.

~~~

I probably should leave all of this at that.
I will send a pm with the rest of what I was trying to bring about, including the point where I discovered why all of this has to do with OBEs, and you can decide what part of it, and how to share it here. I've written it today, but will need a day or so to finalize it.

~~~

We live in a beautiful world, the way I came to see it. It is a great illusion, and quite imperfect, but still, quite beautiful.

Jeffrey

6th March 2014, 22:36

I wonder if part of what you don't want to discuss publicly even though Tom Campbell speaks about it has to do with the spiritually enlightened understanding. When I was sixteen I really did experience spiritual enlightenment. I strongly suspect Tom Campbell has experienced it too. One of the most central insights that true enlightenment brings is that reality is not in any way like a body, or like an object, or many bodies, or objects. Anyone who denies this surely hasn't experienced true enlightenment. It's as simple as that, I'm afraid. Jeffrey (some, if not all, of whose threads have been extraordinary and wonderful) has recently started a thread where he describes everything in the universe as a type of "body", and I believe he means to include all levels of the non-physical in that. What could I say in response to that? What could any enlightened person say?

Hello, TraineeHuman! I've only just now read this, and I feel like there's an opportunity here. :)

I feel like what's been written in the thread you are referring to has been misunderstood, and it's because it's difficult to communicate the concept clearly for a number of reasons.

Firstly, some definitions need to be clarified. I think a mutual understanding about what a particular term means is important for clear communication, and it would be helpful for me to learn how to communicate ideas more clearly.

Everyone has their own unique definition of a term of course.

For me, a body is a collection of interacting parts that work together to sustain some greater whole. This whole has an emergent intelligence that is greater than the sum of it's parts.

A body doesn't have to resemble a physical human body; it doesn't have to resemble the body of any animal or plant either. It's the characteristic of a coherent cooperation between the parts of the body to maintain itself. This is organization. I guess a body is really an organization, which indicates intelligent cooperation.

Another characteristic of a body is that it has a mind. For me, the key characteristic of mind is the ability to relay information and energy throughout a network in a meaningful way. A network being a system of interconnected parts in this case. Most of the networks of mind are branched filaments in my opinion. Also, crystalline structures can relay information and energy. They can also store information and energy, which is another key characteristic of mind -- to store memory.

Yes, the non-physical fits within this pattern too because it precedes the physical in terms of pattern and form.

That is what is meant by the universe operating like a body. It sustains itself by cooperating parts, which themselves are bodies. Bodies have minds as well. The isn't confined in the head either, it can exist throughout the whole body. The idea is that the entire universe, physical and non-physical, exists as a nested hierarchy of bodies and it has a mind. This mind exists as the collection of minds that make it up. It too has an intelligence that is greater than the sum of it's parts.

This would be the ultimate concept of a higher God, with form. There's also the idea of things without form. Which couldn't even be considered things, but that's one of the unfortunate shortcomings of language.

Things with form are all objects. They are a concrete reality for the level of mind experiencing them as a part of their reality (unique to their level of perception). Therefore they are objects that interact together within the body on that level of the nested hierarchy.

Here's a major point. The things in our mind -- ideas, thoughts, and the like -- are illusory abstractions about those objects around us. The objects are real, but our perception of them isn't. This is because the reality is distorted by the structure of the mind of the observer. Each mind is slightly different and is shaped in ways unique to that individuals experience.

If we take that precept and apply it to the whole, zooming out of this nested hierarchy as high as we can imagine, then we all become abstractions within the ultimate mind of which we are a part. Which means we are ultimately nothing more than the play of light within the dreaming mind of an unfathomable reality above us and everything really is an illusion.

That's not the level we are at right now, but since the entire pattern is maintained throughout each level that knowledge is a part of us. Just like a cell keeps the knowledge of the whole body within it's center -- the nucleus -- we keep this knowledge at our center as a spiritual being.

The mind and body grow from and around this center. This center is like the pupil of an eye, it's like a doorway where light flows through. The mind is like the splintered, colored muscles that form the iris. The soul is like the lens of the eye, it distorts the light in conjunction with the muscles operating the iris. The mind and the soul change the way reality is perceived. They are our instruments of perception just like the eye is an instrument of perception for our physical body.

Reality is not like a body, but the physical and non-physical universe that exist to experience reality, they are like a body. The body is a part of that reality, because the body wouldn't exist if there were no reality to experience.

Out of body experiences wouldn't be possible without a mind and a soul to perceive. They constrict, dilate, weave, and distort reality. It's in this manner that objects are differentiated. A prism takes a beam of white light and distorts it into different colors. It differentiates and unpacks the implicate order contained within the white light. It splits the light into different objects. This is what the soul does, then the mind twists and weaves those objects in different ways. This is our perception.

Hopefully, this clarifies the way my mind has perceived and made sense of the world around/within me. This is an ongoing and ever-changing process of course. So, it would be helpful and constructive to listen to alternate perceptions and feedback!

Thanks :)

chocolate

6th March 2014, 22:56

Jeffrey

6th March 2014, 23:05

Jeffrey, I am not TH, but the way it came across to me at that particular post, it was that he was actually prizing you! ( :) ), and asking me to clarify my POV. At least that is how I felt about it, without allowing personal feelings to be involved.
I was only hinting at the time, related to Tom Campbell.

We had the conversation started sometime back.

TH, I have finished part 2, saved and sent. In no way I see it being 100% relevant to your space here, that is why I haven't posted it.

Thank you again for your patience!

Chocolate! Hello :D

Yes, I reached out to TH for a perspective based on what I had read of his experiences. I didn't feel like I had expressed the ideas clearly enough in the COSM thread. The above post isn't a rebuttal, just an attempt at clarifying a concept about bodies.

Thank you both! I'm still very curious about what you feel and think. I also appreciate it :)

PS - I enjoy listening to Tom Campbell too ... thanks again ... I'm now wondering whether the post should be moved? If it doesn't feel appropriate for the thread theme just let me know, I may move the post over to the COSM thread anyways (or just cross-post it).

TraineeHuman

7th March 2014, 00:21

Jeffrey, the topic of "what is a body really?" is a fascinating one. I guess because Matter and Spirit are ultimately one, there would possibly need to be some notion of "(meta-)body" that applies universally -- though you say yourself that the fullest reality lies beyond any "body".

The experience of all the great mystics has been that most of what there really is is formless. So, it would be necessary to stretch the term "structure" so it covers "things" which are quite utterly formless. It would also have to cover pure emptiness, which all mystics also directly and very vividly experience -- not as the vacuum of science but as, paradoxically, the most real and intelligent "thing" there is. Personally I don't at the moment see how any notion of "structure" could begin to do that. I guess "organization" is important, but not with many of the connotations that word "normally" carries. The point is that mystics engage hugely with the formless, and even with the universal (including the formless but going even further in that "direction"), and that's where all the "action" silently and ever so mysteriously originates from. I believe that for me and any true mystic, the cosmic (including the formless) needs to be the starting point and the base and the primary area of attention, conceptually. It's not OK for me for someone to say that we don't or somehow can't know or discuss the formless, let alone the Absolute. But for me, everything that lies outside the Absolute, let alone the formless, is like the tiniest dot in comparison to all the rest.

You seem to be saying you realize some or all of this, and that you agree with chocolate and myself. But for me, it's not enough just to say that the world of forms is the teeniest tiniest illusion really if we are honest. What's needed -- and I believe what's very helpful -- is to talk at some level of detail about what lies beyond that illusion. That's what I've been trying to do most of the time in this thread. And I don't agree with the notion that it's entirely unsayable, not at all. Words carry meanings with them that point far beyond the sayable. We are all magical beings.

Yes, the Higher Mind (or Self) does adopt a particular form for interacting with things in the world of form, even though in its essence it's quite formless. Something kind of similar is even true of Source. But the particular form each Higher Mind chooses to adopt isn't all there is to the Higher Mind, by any means.

Again, ultimately the only "mind" there is, as far as I know, is actually the "emptiness" I mentioned. And as far as I know, it's absolutely everything there is -- anywhere or when, and also beyond all place and time. There's only one mind in the entire universe, and even beyond that. (When I talk of each person's Higher Mind, that too is ultimately just a metaphor, like "the body".)

As chocolate has in effect said, and as you say, our "physical body" is really an illusion because really we just have the physical senses. Turn off your physical senses and -- as far as you know -- there's no longer any physical body there, though there are still the senses. We are really all the universe playing a game of limiting itself for now, but we've managed to forget that. But I want to talk about the (cosmic, formless) Universe.

GuyFox

7th March 2014, 09:31

I am still reading through this interesting thread.

I think this recent interview (that I did) and posted on Youtube fits well here

Introduction to RV and Astral Projection

= XJlgnOV9HkQ =

TraineeHuman

7th March 2014, 12:16

The Higher Mind sees no conflict with different theories, about anything. The Higher Mind never has been through a Fall. It's only interested in creating and collaborating, basically. Not in putting on blinkers. The ordinary, separative mind is preoccupied with claiming to have the best and only version of the truth. It tries to deny or condemn all competing positions, and to prove that they're definitely inferior. For it, everything that's different has to be false. Not so at all the HM, which is what it is that gets released at the earliest stage of enlightenment. I mean -- lightening one's load really does involve dropping a great deal of nonsense. Whew! (This is still very, very far from Source and its Mind, though.)

So, there's this whole major side to the HM of "do your own thing" or "whatever (turns you on)", and so forth. The HM happily concedes to every theory and view and position and attitude its right to have a place. (A bit like the PA Forum, perhaps.) The HM allows the whole struggle for "survival of the fittest" among conflicting views to just play itself out. It embraces them all, but also watches to note which ones perhaps win out more. The thing is, though, the HM has flipped over into emphasizing the underlying oneness that's the glue holding everything together. That, rather than a state of collision or conflict with every other individual or being or view. Are you ready for that leap, dear reader? This isn't an intellectual or theoretical act. No, this is the great line to cross. I mean, it's the portal to the HM! Simple as that.

On the other hand, even with all that understood and imbibed, I'm happy to criticize any view or position that leads to excessive narrowness. A very major form of dumbing down throughout the twentieth century has been the view that you are nothing more than a physical body. (Not a body that's manifested by something infinite that gives rise to Life.) Not only that, but it then follows that you have one identity only, one history, one personality, "your" one point of view, and so on. In this way your "free choice" quite often also becomes a way of perpetuating individual narrowness and self-centeredness. Also, getting a human being to identify with only being a physical body is an act of black magic, including sex magic. Talk about putting a person in prison. It's a way of getting them to deny any other point of view than that they're a somewhat robotically driven hunk of meat.

chocolate

7th March 2014, 14:21

Hello Jeffrey!

I managed to read your post yesterday, and tried to see your ideas as a picture in my mind this morning. Which I somehow managed to accomplish.
I reread it just now once again.

We seem to be observing the situation from what it would seem as opposite viewpoints. But having said that, I also feel that there is no correct answer to anything so profoundly big, and every one of us perceives in his/hers most natural way. Your parallels to this whole world being a type of a body structure seem to be sound, and I see it coming from a more logical perspective.

I am not going to stop at particular words and expressions, but wanted to say, that you know best what feels correct for the current observation and from the position you stand right now. And I feel you should continue to investigate your point of view.

We have the disadvantage of being educated and constantly under the influence of externalized knowledge and ideology, even if we don't realize it on occasion, so one way of staying detached, being centered, having an OBE, or whatever one decides to call it, is probably only going to be beneficial for the final goal.
We seem to strive to know the unknown, all of us writing here on this thread.
I guess this is better, than to stay in one place, and just hope to get excited by the flying around objects (symbolically speaking).

I will probably try to follow my own advice here as well. :)

Eventually we will meet, somewhere, symbolically speaking again, all of us, in due time.
Until then, it is an adventure.

TraineeHuman

8th March 2014, 12:33

I take it scientologists would like my next statement. I consider it's more important to be able to "run pictures" (in the mental plane) than to be able to astral or mental project regularly. "Running pictures" is one important part of what I would use the term "energy work" to cover. But I'll get back to that word "energy" in a little while. I believe I primarily learnt how to "run pictures" through direct "transmission" of that skill one-to-one, nonverbally. And through endless practice one-to-one with many different individuals. If you can clearly see the "pictures" , the long "movies", that make up or that distort the worldview of others or yourself, who needs clearly remembered dreams, or OB travel in mental realms? More subtly even than "running pictures", though, after years of enormous practice I found one can to some degree also "run intentions", or "run points of view".

But I found there is something quite beyond that also, that's more liberating. Let's come back to the concepts of "energy", or "light". To a great many, these concepts supposedly point to realities or Forces that are somewhat similar to the physical version of "energy" or "light". But I happen to see these very differently. I see these terms as labels that people have given to infinities, to indeterminate realities, as they manifest in this world of finiteness. (What a miracle it is that the world of finiteness even exists. How did the infinities ever generate it?) Experientially speaking, what most advanced meditators do is sooner or later they hit and for a very long time remain at a profound "nothingness", what seems like a wonderful blank but still a blank. The reason it seems that way is that they haven't as yet begun to learn how to cope with infinities instead of finite realities. However, I'd like to think I know maybe a shortcut to "unraveling" that blankness. Let me emphasize that at this level "energy" and "light" have no such thing as any frequency, or any kind of waveform, and so on.

I don't claim to have mastered that, but partly I did learn it through direct "transmission". I hesitate to mention Gods at all because frankly it seems to me that the misinfo propaganda regarding the benevolent Gods is so massive it seems to have poisoned or misdirected the notions of nearly everyone on Forums such as this. Without direct experience, one's notions will be false anyway. But the being I got the direct "transmission" from was Shiva, who is the supreme benevolent God, the God of liberation and enlightenment, and close partner of Gaia (or the being sometimes known, I assume, as "Mary"; also as "Kali", although there are also many imposters who call themselves "Kali" and seem to be demonic).

So what is this "infinity-busting" skill? Well, I've already talked in this thread about how the HM -- let alone the Divine Mind --- knows primarily through union, through seeing nonseparativeness. In other words, to know X the HM almost makes itself temporarily identical with X. This is the only type of knowledge that's close to being complete knowledge. Not that full completeness is even possible, of course. Any other type of knowledge -- including scientific knowledge -- is laughably superficial at best; except that the inventor of a great scientific theory or paradigm will have used at-one-with knowledge to create the theory. Being totally at-one-with a whole issue, if you like. Earlier in this thread I did my best to encourage people to practice truly being at-one-with in the hope they would discover some of its significance and power. So far, not much fruit. I can only do my best. The HM sees the nonseparativeness all the time but still lives in a world full of separativeness. On the other hand, the Divine Mind/ Source lives in a world of total unity in many ways. But you can't even see what the HM (or Source) is like, and what the view is like from there, without being it. And the view becomes very different, I suggest.

chocolate

8th March 2014, 14:55

Hello, TraineeHuman,
Being-at-one-with is how I would explain my ability to sense intentions and understand people/animals/plants/etc. including feeling sensations in my body as a direct result of that state of at-one-with. I probably haven't reached the post from the past where you have emphasized this, yet.

I don't think I am psychic as some may suggest, but I do have the ability to associate with someone without being that particular someone. I have managed to do something similar with several people. One of them in particular was also very intuitive and creative, and we somehow managed to stay tuned to a similar wavelength. It was a very good experience. We live on the opposite sides of the world right now, but on occasion he sends me some images.

Of course there are those, who I have happened to allow in my more personal world, and who can also manage to send me pictures, but on occasion I block them because of the nature of those pictures. It is a two way communication, but as with every other communication, it should be done with care and responsibility.

Some people just do it, but I don't think we all have the necessary knowledge to put it in words the way you have done it in your post.
All of the above, of course, if I understood the concept correctly.

Running pictures is a way of communicating with animals for me. I mean, sometimes I can see a reaction, but mostly I let them talk to me. I receive either a sensation, or some sort of a glimpse of something resembling an image.

I also had the idea that if one could hold a mental picture in one's mind stable long enough, that would be a direct communication of ideas with everyone around that person, including animals and plant spirits, even if the people cannot exactly understand it consciously. I thought this to be the ultimate way of non-offensive counteraction of the current state of affairs on Earth.

If one can remember Lord of the Rings, the way Aragorn managed to engage all spirits, 'living' and 'dead', together with the trees and the animals for the final battle against the darkness, I think he did it exactly though mental images. I don't know if that concept has been mentioned in the books (I haven't read the books), surely it wasn't in the films, but regardless, that is how I 'saw' it recently.

So if anyone is interested in helping the world in a non-aggressive way, which I think is the only option that has any future, that would be it.
:)

[ I probably need to note that I apologize for being the one to constantly reply to your posts, TH, but this thread is mostly what I read right now.
I will try to stay in the shadows more, just to let other express... ]

soleil

9th March 2014, 02:25

hi all, i have been busy and really need to catch up on last 2 months of posts. i shared with th via a pm some updates, and if he thinks theres relevant material worth sharing he can. im day 3 of oobe attempting and not gonna give up like william buhlman/robert bruce. mainly im using only rope method to stick to something. its been successful with blind oobers so visualization is not needed. so fay day 3 my tactile imagining has improved.

on another note, i tried a guided meditation for astral projection, by paul santisi. i got deep into trance, aware and alert with my body asleep...i even felt intense heart chakra thundering in my chest and then since this recording was doing obe via a guided roll out method, well it threw me off completely and so i think it fizzled. under normal circumstances it would work for just about anyone. im just 6mos pregnant and the thought of rolling over messed with my logic. if anyone has any binaural beats or guided meditation for obe that works please share here. 21 days to form a habit, within the subconscious so here goes, wish me luck.

oh and anyone else care to join in the committment, go for it!

TraineeHuman

10th March 2014, 12:53

I am still reading through this interesting thread.

I think this recent interview (that I did) and posted on Youtube fits well here

Introduction to RV and Astral Projection

= XJlgnOV9HkQ =

Outstanding video, GuyFox. One issue it raises is the whole relationship between remote viewing and astral/mental travel/projection. The presenter seems to regard remote viewing as something that any astral traveler can do easily. Unfortunately, I believe there's more to the story than he implies. As far as I understand, the best RVers -- the ones that got used by governments (and probably others still are) -- are individuals who have not only attained enlightenment but probably have also developed certain particular skills extensively.

Back when I began nightly astral travel, I'd visit likeminded (living human) individuals in various locations. (A little later I spent most of my time going to classes on higher-dimensional skills, mostly given by friendly non-human beings living in the astral or mental but connected more to some other location than this planet, and covering all over the solar system.) Because I live on the east coast of Australia, a number of my night-time contacts were from the western half of North America (initially). I simply needed to think of a particular contact, and suddenly I (my astral body) was there, in their town and often their bedroom. That was useful, because many of the cities and towns looked much the same, so I would have had trouble finding them by how they looked. I guess you could call my finding of my friends like that one form of "remote viewing" perhaps, even if a narrowly specialized form.

I guess in a similar but more adventurous way, in the Camelot/Avalon Forums a few years before this Forum started, two separate individuals attempted to astral travel to military instalations of some sort. I assume somewhere like Dulce or Pine Gap or Area 51 or whatever. One individual got scared out of his/her wits by some (apparently) very powerful dark being guarding an installation. The other heard a type of alarm go off (I assume in the astral), with various soldiers rushing out to counter the incursion into the protected space; then the message: "False alarm. It's only an amateur." So, it certainly seems that such bases are protected probably at many astral and mental levels. That doesn't make it clear for me, though, whether or not RVers from a different nation (China, Russia, etc) need at some point to astral travel, in an astral level very close to the physical, in order to gather accurate information.

I haven't tried to learn RVing, so that's an area where I too am an amateur. But I'd like to make it clear there are many psychic abilities. And just because someone has developed one, it doesn't follow that they'll be good at all. It's a little like saying that a person's a musician. That could mean they're a composer or melody writer, or it could mean they play a certain instrument. Very often someone who's great at playing isn't so good at composing, and vice-versa. Also, just because someone can play one instrument, it usually doesn't follow that they're good at playing all instruments.

I also suspect that the truly reliable RVers utilize knowing through identity (as in my most recent post). That is, I suspect they consciously access a formless dimension and somehow consciously perform a descension into their target while retaining full-on oneness consciousness. That's impossible for most people to do (at present), but it would explain why the truly reliable RVers are so few in number. It would also explain why the great majority of channelers unfortunately don't seem by any means to be the conduits to pure Truth that they fancy themselves to be.

Initially, my astral traveling was in worlds which included a representation of the physical world, and so looked rather like the physical world. At higher levels, such as the mental level, this certainly was no longer the case. But I suspect much of modern art comes and came from artists who somehow saw the mental worlds rather clearly -- or some of the formless worlds, in the case of the abstract expressionists. And van Gogh's paintings sometimes somehow depict descension of Source into the physical.

Some astral explorers want to explore every nook and cranny of the lower levels. I've always been the opposite of that: I just wanted to keep moving to an ever higher level. To do that, one needs to stop looking at the scenery. Otherwise one will get attached to that level, and be unable to go higher.

chocolate

11th March 2014, 00:35

Hi, TraineeHuman!
I found an article which made me a bit unsettled, since I though Michio Kaku to be a bit more than pure scientist:

Dreaming in Code
Michio Kaku's 'Future of the Mind' (a book review)

"For Kaku, the brain is a computer made of meat, and understanding the mind is just a really, really hard engineering problem. The fundamental laws are already known, and Kaku tells us we’ll soon be manipulating the stuff of consciousness with the same acuity we push electrons around in our digital devices. This singular confidence is both strength and weakness as Kaku unspools his narrative, and doubts about his core convictions begin to trail the reader like a parade of ghosts.

[...]

But are you nothing more than the sum of your brain’s connections? Here’s where Kaku stumbles. It’s been almost 20 years since the philosopher David Chalmers introduced the distinction between “easy” and “hard” problems in the study of consciousness. Easy problems, according to Chalmers, were things like figuring out how the brain cycles through signals from the arm allowing you to pick up an object. Researchers developing the next generation of prosthetics will tell you this “easy” problem remains pretty hard, but as Chalmers rightly pointed out, control of the arm is nothing compared with developing a scientific account of the vividness of our own experience. It’s the internal luminosity — the “being” of our being — that constitutes Chalmers’s hard problem and that eludes Kaku’s engineering-based perspective.

The problem is that we still don’t have much in the way of a working model of consciousness. With a physicist’s eye for economy, Kaku tries to provide one through what he calls a “space-time theory.” It’s a model of consciousness with a graded scale of awareness based on the number of feedback loops between environment and organism. Thus, in Kaku’s view, a thermostat has the lowest possible level of consciousness while humans, with our ability to move through space and project ourselves mentally backward and forward in time, represent the highest level currently known.
I’ve spent most of my professional life running supercomputer simulations of events like the collapsing of interstellar gas clouds to form new stars, and it seems to me that Kaku has taken a metaphor and mistaken it for a mechanism. There has always been the temptation to take the latest technology, like clockworks in the 17th century, and see it as a model for the mechanics of thought. But simulations are not a self, and information is not experience. Kaku acknowledges the existence of the hard problem but waves it away. “There is no such thing as the Hard Problem,” he writes.

[...] "

So from affecting water with our minds, or should I say with our consciousness, to this book, I would presume it hasn't been much 'fashionable' to deal with the hard question, and probably not much profitable, too.

Full article here: http://nyti.ms/1geXmeP

TraineeHuman

11th March 2014, 04:44

Being-at-one-with is how I would explain my ability to sense intentions and understand people/animals/plants/etc. including feeling sensations in my body as a direct result of that state of at-one-with. I probably haven't reached the post from the past where you have emphasized this, yet.

I don't think I am psychic as some may suggest, but I do have the ability to associate with someone without being that particular someone. I have managed to do something similar with several people. One of them in particular was also very intuitive and creative, and we somehow managed to stay tuned to a similar wavelength. It was a very good experience. We live on the opposite sides of the world right now, but on occasion he sends me some images.

Of course there are those, who I have happened to allow in my more personal world, and who can also manage to send me pictures, but on occasion I block them because of the nature of those pictures. It is a two way communication, but as with every other communication, it should be done with care and responsibility.

Some people just do it, but I don't think we all have the necessary knowledge to put it in words the way you have done it in your post.
All of the above, of course, if I understood the concept correctly.

Running pictures is a way of communicating with animals for me. I mean, sometimes I can see a reaction, but mostly I let them talk to me. I receive either a sensation, or some sort of a glimpse of something resembling an image.

I also had the idea that if one could hold a mental picture in one's mind stable long enough, that would be a direct communication of ideas with everyone around that person, including animals and plant spirits, even if the people cannot exactly understand it consciously. I thought this to be the ultimate way of non-offensive counteraction of the current state of affairs on Earth.

If one can remember Lord of the Rings, the way Aragorn managed to engage all spirits, 'living' and 'dead', together with the trees and the animals for the final battle against the darkness, I think he did it exactly though mental images. I don't know if that concept has been mentioned in the books (I haven't read the books), surely it wasn't in the films, but regardless, that is how I 'saw' it recently.

So if anyone is interested in helping the world in a non-aggressive way, which I think is the only option that has any future, that would be it.
:)

I'm sure everything you've said in this post is valid, chocolate. It's great for me to hear that someone else does use or practice some form of at-oneness, in some sense or other. What I would add, though, is that there are many deeper and deeper "levels" to this. I know it may sound curious that "oneness" has many degrees, but that's how it is. At-oneness may be simple to conceive, or to feel to a certain degree (as genuine love). I'd like to say something about polarity, which is one of the biggest things that need to be overcome or mastered before one is able to develop a very deep level of oneness.

But before I do that, I'd like to say some things about one of the biggest basics of meditation, partly because in my experience someone like sway who wants to learn astral travel fluently does need to master this basic first. It's every bit as much a basic for astral travel as it is for meditation.

To find and experience something new, we have to make our very being truly young. We have to leave all that's old behind as if we were leaving it forever -- which means "all" that's known to us, so far. We have to drop it at least temporarily. And we have to be ever so determined to do this. Everything depends on the strength of that determination in us. In this thread we've talked about intention. Can you totally live it and give it every fibre of yourself?

So now we come to the basic skill that has to be acquired before anything else. This is the skill of being able not to think -- to silence the superficial mind at will. The ability to not-think. Even when we learn to do that, we make all kinds of discoveries. Do it for ten minutes, and you'll get some direct self-knowledge about how you're probably dominated by a swirling maelstrom of habits, of robotically repeating voices and impulses, ruled over by a few competing (sub-)personalities that you're only partly conscious of. And there's no instant "off" switch to that ceaseless thinking. It takes much time, and patience, and meditation, to get there. Proper meditation is initially mostly the practice of doing that anyway -- although I do like walking qi gong, where one gets preoccupied with concentrating on the movements and breathing and there's just no time to think. You can't force the mind into silence. Struggling with it only makes it stronger. We have to let it eventually, gradually subside under its own weight, and under the light of our ceaseless watching ourselves, day and night.

And the trouble is, we don't know who we are. We don't know what may awake and be released in us from deeper and higher within. We just have to keep clearing the ground for we don't know what. And when that something beyond does eventually come, we'll need to live it every moment in our daily lives -- and very especially whenever it seems to be the most difficult to do so in our ordinary lives. That's the only place you'll find true enlightenment, by the way.

And when, as I say, that transition eventually comes -- and subsequent transitions come --, well, let's say I never promised you a rose garden, not yet. Much later on, eventually, yes, a life that's full of roses, and healthy chocolates and a beautiful feeling of a kind of felt coolness and so pleasant inner peace. I've seen many meditators go through months or even much longer in an arid no person's land, where they've seen the aridity and superficiality of the exterior world but no real life flowering or awakening has opened in them yet on an inner level. (And even, they may have got to the point where the current has stopped flowing up the spine but the current flowing down from above the head -- which is the HM's -- won't have started yet. Later on the descension current will slowly get greater and greater and greater, but then just feel normal and not noticeable. By the way, if you practice anything like kriya yoga then I'm sorry to say you'll need an expert teacher to help you get the current to flow down at this point. But if you're practicing awareness, and something like Zen meditation, it'll all happen naturally without the need of any expert rescue at all from an experienced teacher.)

Well, I could go on and on about the basics. But in my next post I'd like to jump to talking about polarities -- which amounts to almost the same topic as that of the ego.

TraineeHuman

11th March 2014, 13:52

Obviously, oneness involves reconciling opposites, transcending them. But what does that mean in practice? Such a huge and important topic. So relevant to what mastery over the challenges of living in the physical world involves. Firstly, I would say the ego is that part of us that thrives on polarities, and it's what seeks to exploit them or dramatize them. chocolate has said she recognizes the "roller coaster" phenomenon that I have said centrally characterizes how the ego operates within our life. I would say that phenomenon involves major swings between opposites -- often dwelling at one pole perhaps for days and then jumping to the other pole. For instance, jumping between boredom and excitement. There are, of course, much more short-term swings or clinging to contrasts, such as feeling hurt by another in some way at one moment but contemplating revenge -- hurting the other -- in the next moment.

I'd now like to say some things about polarities from a more general or conceptual point of view. One of the most popular polarities is that of good versus (or supposedly versus) evil. I admit that there do exist demonic beings who are malevolent. But some individuals seem to have beliefs regarding good and evil such as the following, for instance. The view is that the universe needs the evil or dark forces to be in balance with the forces of pure light -- and hence it needs the evil ones to be very strong. Somehow, as this theory goes, a strong opponent is needed for us to struggle against because only that way will we learn how to truly become strong. Almost kind of like weightlifting, I guess. Pardon my flippancy, but I don't buy it.

Certainly, the HM has a very different view of and attitude towards polarities than that. I've already mentioned (I believe in some detail) how the HM overcomes the problem of pleasure or pain with bliss. I guess bliss is a kind of super-pleasure, although the HM feels bliss at the mere fact of existing, at existence or being alive just in itself. That does really take all the sting out of (emotional or psychological, and often even physical) pain. It also takes all the addictiveness and excitement out of ordinary pleasure, because ordinary pleasure can't hold a candle to bliss. (Actually, I've also said that bliss has a second face, of peace/indifference -- but it's not at all escapist either. And I don't want to divert from the discussion right now to explain how and why that's so.)

This is just one example, but all the polarities get resolved in a similar way. What cuts the Gordian knot each time is something super-positive. And to really understand and use "at-oneness" and whatever Light from the Divine Mind comes into the HM, we need to get beyond being affected so much by polarities any more. Let me try a brief indication or maybe even explanation of why this has to be the case.

Because there literally is nothing other than Source, it follows that Source has no opposite, at all. (Or, if you like, Source is its own and only opposite.) Not only that, but everything that Source as a whole ever does -- or that's basically in true harmony with that -- is always good, true, and right. This is because there's no such thing as "opposition," from somewhere outside of Source, that matches or conflicts with Source, at all. Everything Source does (acting as a whole) is truly positive. That's what the multiverse is ultimately like at its deepest level. And the HM always leads one towards insight into what's truly positive.

chocolate

11th March 2014, 20:17

Obviously, oneness involves reconciling opposites, transcending them. But what does that mean in practice? Such a huge and important topic.
[...]
One of the most popular polarities is that of good versus (or supposedly versus) evil. I admit that there do exist demonic beings who are malevolent. But some individuals seem to have beliefs regarding good and evil such as the following, for instance. The view is that the universe needs the evil or dark forces to be in balance with the forces of pure light -- and hence it needs the evil ones to be very strong. Somehow, as this theory goes, a strong opponent is needed for us to struggle against because only that way will we learn how to truly become strong. Almost kind of like weightlifting, I guess. Pardon my flippancy, but I don't buy it.

I wrote my post initially, and later on modified it.
I am sure it is not a strange concept to realize that this world is structured based on polarity. It is all around us, in and outside of us.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Yin_yang.svg

But I struggle with the idea that living in this world, we need not to become affected by those polarities.
In my view the purpose of being here, right now, is because we need to learn how to handle that balance. And on occasion, some weight lifting is only going to help the overall wellness of the body (that is a proven science fact).

On the level of being at-one-with the HM I presume handling the balance wouldn't be an issue since that would be behind all of us.
But while I am still a mortal human, I guess I am also still learning how to balance it all.

Personally, I think having the opposition, present and alive, is a prerequisite for being (here). Mastering it- and we move on.

I think I am ready to move on.
Thank you, TraineeHuman.

TraineeHuman

12th March 2014, 01:50

There's a reason why the yin-yang symbol has a white dot in the center of the black part, and a black dot in the center of the white. I believe that's intended to say that ultimately, at their heart, opposites are the same. Kind of like a mirror image: just with the directions changed, but still more similar than they are different. I believe the yin-yang symbol was intended to suggest that while we need to live in this world of oppositions we need to at the same time find how to maintain a nondual consciousness. That's why various features of that symbol emphasize the integration of the opposites, it seems to me. Opposites don't just somehow cancel each other out, but combine to create something greater, that's not in itself opposed to anything -- or that's how I understand Taoists intended that symbol to be understood.

It's not so easy to achieve stability in the nondual consciousness. And yes, only through growing through and beyond the conflict between dualities is it possible to get there. Basically, the exoteric form of all religions has taught and teaches: "Be good." Unfortunately, it doesn't provide people with much help on how to begin to become good. That leads to easy denial to oneself of when/how one is not being good. Psychologists call that one's "defense mechanisms".

On the other hand, the esoteric ("advanced") teaching in virtually all religions has been that you can only become good by totally facing your shadow -- and by facing it integrating all polarity, at least to a considerable degree. Only then will you be eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good Without Evil.

Through thousands of hours of practice, I learnt to refine at-oneness with any individual person, and to some extent with groups. However, I also learnt to somehow stop myself from consciously knowing, or remembering, what I was seeing. This was because it was interfering with the privacy of the other individual. So today I'm still partly in the strange situation where if I have an individual in front of me I'm able to say things relevant to their deepest concerns or secrets. But I don't consciously think of that as their secrets. I just let my intuition take over what I say, and it knows their secrets. Also, sometimes I'll find my intuition saying things which aren't to my advantage but the other individual needs to address one of their issues somehow -- and if they get angry at me it's what they needed to vent somehow, to further their own process. Also, human communication involves such things as the inner child, which doesn't properly understand nonduality. I'm still gradually learning to make sure I communicate through my inner child and yet also use my HM to consciously know their secrets if that's helpful.

TraineeHuman

13th March 2014, 12:46

Your thoughts are not your thoughts. They actually come from outside of you, much like the thoughts of others, ultimately. But let's start at the beginning, with more about how the ability to not-think is very relevant to astral travel, and various other important things.

Once you begin to learn, after regular practice, how to not-think, then at times during the day you'll be reminded to "change gears" into pausing for a moment and doing that. Then, after a while, you'll notice a split, where you constantly feel the not-thinking part of you. That is actually the HM, and a true center. You'll also feel the other parts of you, which are busy with practicalities of living and so on.

At some point -- after some years, for some people -- you'll notice something very curious. Now that I'm pointing this out, it hopefully won't take you years. You'll notice -- eventually quite precisely -- that all thoughts come from and occur outside of you. Not only that, but they're quite mechanical. They -- thoughts, thinking itself -- contain no knowledge in themselves. All knowledge comes from within you, from a space wholly beyond and above thoughts. It descends down into the mental, where it finds expression in words -- or pictures, or symbols. Thoughts are just dumb receptacles, like chess pieces. That's why through not-thinking, through silence, you can know everything you ever did using thinking, but you know it more fully and more directly.

Not only that. You'll discover that you can access not only "your" knowledge but any knowledge you like. I guess that's beginner RVing. The knowledge could be about someone or something on the other side of the world. The HM is connected with everything. In my experience, the whole thrill, the whole essence, of astral traveling -- and even more so of mental traveling -- is in being able to know and/or experience anything, anywhere. Even though it takes at least years of practice to learn to do that with great accuracy. But it's easy very, very early on to experience the overall "feel" of whatever you'd like to visit. In other words, the thrill and fascination and pleasure of the experience lies almost entirely in the experiencing of "exotic" or useful knowledge. And that's done by and through the HM. Not by hypnosis or affirmations. Nor do you need to move your awareness out of your physical body as in astral travel, either.

Strangely, all you need to learn to do this is how to "feel" in you the all-pervading Silence at all times, the Silence that watches all. You need to gradually learn to let its knowledge, its ideas take priority in your life -- even though they seem to come out of "nothing", out of some kind of whim. You have to gradually unhook from all your old, mechanical inner habits more and more. Only then will will you be able to "point" that silent Mind to anywhere or anything or anyone in the multiverse, and receive all the knowledge you need regarding that.

And as I say, eventually you can learn that you only "borrow" all your thoughts. You may even learn to see them entering into your energy field before you "think" them. They look like little rotating balls of electricity, and you can learn to actually see them all coming in from outside of your energy field. You don't create your thoughts. The Divine Mind created and creates them all, every last one.

Reinhard

13th March 2014, 16:20

Hi TH,
....co-incidently non-thought has been on my "mind" for quite a while now. Since the weather has warmed up, I restarted my daily walk through the woods, close to where I live. I started to calm my mind-chatter down and 'be' on my walk---at least for part of the way. Sometimes I can almost 'see' pieces of mind-chatters from previous walks still hanging in the trees --- I'm ignoring them. I consider those walks my daily meditation --- with more and more stretches of thought-lessness and being-ness.
It hasn't occured to me that thoughts come from the outside....I'll have this in mind on my next walks......before I switch over to thought-lessness, of course ;)
I don't post much, but I am following some threads regularly (yours being one of them). I just don't want to be glued to the screen too much.
In case you remember our few thread and PM contacts quite a while ago, I'm still trying to enhance my field of conscious perception (OBE etc).....No direct success, yet........

One reminder that might help you and chocolate in your dialogue about duality ('good' vs 'bad', etc): the (2-d) yin-yang symbol seems to exclude (or take it for granted) the (3-d) position of the observer....only an observer 'outside' the symbol would notice the black dot in the white. For me that indicates that detachment from the duality 'plane' could be the first step to deal with e.g. 'good' and 'bad', without denying either one of them..............oh, well, my 2 cents.
Reinhard

TraineeHuman

14th March 2014, 00:12

Yes, I certainly remember your earlier posts, Reinhard. It's with people like yourself in mind that I've been trying to explain for some time now in this thread that you don't need to master the skill of astral travel to get the essential part -- based on my own lengthy and ongoing experience of it -- of most of the benefits that could come from doing so.

I hope my latest two posts on not-thinking clarify this further. I'm very glad to hear that they seem to have gotten the "message" across to you in a way that you can now confirm as the truth. It's simply a matter now of learning to trust that the Silence in you is the real you. A little like learning to drive -- or to ride a bicycle "no hands". It involves trusting the Silence so much, eventually, that you listen only to it, pretty much, regarding anything important at least. After that, you mostly just let it be your guide. After all, it is your Light anyway, and always has been the real you.

I'm reminded of the lyrics of a Bob Dylan song:

My love, she speaks like silence,
Without ideals of violence.
She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
Yet she's true like ice, like fire.
People carry roses, make promises by the hours.
My love she laughs like the flowers.
Valentines can't buy her.

In the dime stores and the stations
People talk of situations,
Write books, repeat quotations,
Draw conclusions on the wall.
Some speak of the future,
My love she speaks softly.
She knows there's no success like failure,
And that failure's no success at all.

(I forget the rest, though there's a line "in ceremonies of the horsemen even the pawns must hold a grudge", which Avalonians will appreciate as a reference to the conditioning coming from the ruling elite.)

TraineeHuman

14th March 2014, 14:14

It takes powerful concentration to be able to silence all your thoughts and really hold them off. But if you ever manage to do that, and hopefully repeat it a hundred times, then you'll know for an absolute fact that the thoughts all come strictly from outside. At that point you won't believe that any of "your" thoughts are something you need to hold onto. You'll be able to throw them away ever so quickly, like used tissues. Can you imagine what a liberation that would be? If no thoughts are yours in particular, then you are, or can be, everywhere, and everything.

Well, if you master not-thinking, or careful self-watching, fully enough, you'll discover something even more shocking. It's not just that all your thoughts come from outside of you -- even if their coming does happen at the invitation of whatever it is that lies inside of you. All your feelings - except for basically one -- also come from outside of you. You'll discover that too. Ditto all combinatioons of thought and feeling, such as all desires. Even all -- or virtually all -- your intentions. And would you believe all your impulses, in the usual sense of that word?

You may be protesting: "But, they're my pains, my feelings, my desires! That's who I am, and all that I am!" Poor Reinhard, and others -- just getting used to looking at the proposed fact, or beginning to discover the fact, that everything inside is in reality in a state of no-thought. And now I want to add no-feeling and no-everything, just about.

Well, at least I'll concede you one feeling -- the feeling of aliveness. That is, the feeling/sensation of what it's like just simply to be alive. And whenever you're truly in touch with that feeling/sensation, it does feel very, very good. That's where I profoundly differ from mainstream sociology, which claims that your individuality is just a myth, a social construct, and nothing more. It's also where I differ from behaviorism, which claims you're nothing more than a "black box" which doesn't contain anything inside, and that "you" are just a space for stimuli to come into the black box and leave it as responses attributed to that black box.

The feeling of aliveness is actually Source (well, the Divine Mind, to be exact -- which is the active face of Source), but its true nature will be veiled from you until you can raise your awareness to the point where you can see that that really is the ultimate Divine.

Joe Akulis

17th March 2014, 16:15

Okay, so your last post brings up the question:

Different types of thoughts originate from different places then, don't they?

I've been thinking a lot lately about the notion of the brain being a transmitter/receiver linking with whatever is actually doing the thinking. The mind is external, that kind of thing. So, if my inner voice can't stop singing a song in my head, does that come from some place other than the HM? What about all the more dualistically influenced thoughts? Like your example of someone being hurt and then dwelling on a desire to exact revenge. Would those thoughts also come from the HM?

My guess is that they are more tied to this "personality" we create which exists at a lower level than the HM, and is part of the thing that you talk about us shedding on our way back to integration with our HM after we leave our physical bodies behind.

Hopefully this isn't something already covered in depth here, and I just missed it or can't remember it...

Joe

chocolate

18th March 2014, 12:15

seeker1972, I want to join you and expand in a certain direction:

From time to time we tend to experience what some call 'possessions', other call 'interference', etc. All of the above, doesn't it appear as some sort of a thought-feeling?

I know TH has explained a lot about what possession is, and the energies involved, not only here, but on other threads as well, but I think it might be very useful for a lot of people around to receive some more down-to-earth explanation of all of that related to our mind-thoughts-perception-reaction etc.

There are many ways one can approach the issue, but from my experience on this thread I think this is the best place for a question such as this to be answered.

It is not an easy question, so I don't expect a fast and easy answer.

But I know, whatever the answer implies, it will be very useful for a lot of us to know how to look at life without the fear that the terms 'interference' or 'possession' carry within.

Thank you, TraineeHuman, in advance.

TraineeHuman

18th March 2014, 14:12

Okay, so your last post brings up the question:

Different types of thoughts originate from different places then, don't they? ...

Joe

Absolutely. For instance, your HM or even the deeper "I" selects certain thoughts, words, actions to express itself and to give its knowledge/knowing flesh. I've hopefully been doing my best to confine most of the words I put in this thread to that category of words in the relevant situations/topics. The HM lies just beyond thoughts and words, but it adopts certain words and brings them in briefly. It hires them, so to speak.

Before I respond to more of your post, Joe -- which probes deep as usual --, I'd like to mention an example of something that's beyond thoughts. I'm impressed and touched by some of Reinhard's actions. Specifically, by his zeroing in on two activities which he just happens to have "picked' as the ones he's had some success with. It isn't the words or so much the thoughts, it's the doing. Back in April or June or whenever he "got"' at least some of what's genuinely involved in the art of feeling the aliveness. Now, recently, he's having at least some success at learning to not-think. What a great choice. He's zeroing in on what's important, and doing it -- and that somehow cuts beyond thoughts and words.

In one or two of my next posts I'll respond to more of the many issues you bring up in your latest post.

TraineeHuman

19th March 2014, 03:02

chocolate, I suggest that to talk about what possession is does implicitly involve talking about what trance is. So here are some comments regarding that. Firstly, there are a number of quite different kinds or meanings of "trance". There is indeed one sense where "trance" is always something quite safe, for any sane person. That's where a person is having a direct experience of and absorption into Source, or the Divine. To do that, one does in a sense need to leave some of one's lower faculties switched off or almost switched off, in order to fully experience or be the higher. Also, it's true that we can't bring back any record of the Divine. We can maybe manage to say some things about what it was like, but they'll always sound paradoxical. Such as: "There was total oneness." Someone else, who hasn't had the experience, may say that total oneness doesn't make sense, that there's no such thing as that in this world -- and they would be right, there isn't, within this lower world. (Incidentally, in another thread recently I wasn't referring to "trance" in this or some other senses I'll mention here. But people can jump to (false) conclusions easily, unawarely.)

Another sense of "trance" is basically how, as I understand it, Source sees its entire presence in matter. Ultimately, everything is Source. Even matter. But the infinite consciousness of Source is present as matter only in what to it is a kind of deep trance or deep sleep. For various reasons, I like and love to try to "read" Source's point of view about all topics, as far as I can possibly manage to do so. And this seems to be the most obvious or prevalent type of "trance" from Source's point of view, so I admit when the word "trance" comes up maybe I'll tend to first think of "trance" in this sense.

There is also at least one sense of "trance" that involves something like sleep, but with staying awake or being awake in a way we (most people) normally are not. It involves pulling back some of the veil that in our surface existence makes us (or most of us) blind to where all our thoughts and ultimately our being is coming from. Astral travel is one example of this. It's also possible to basically pull back the entire veil that is the personality. As far as I''m aware, astral and mental travel unfortunately involve still being largely within parts of that veil of personality. However, as far as I know most dreams involve temporary removal of the veil of the personality, leaving the HM in an unveiled state while we are having many of our dreams. Unfortunately, by the time we wake up the veil has come back, and it distorts our memory of what we really understood at the time of dreaming. This isn't exactly the sense of "trance" I was referring to in the other thread. But people could mistake it for that. And certainly, if people go astral traveling without first learning how to come from and remain in a positive space while OB, then I guess that does indeed amount to an example of "trance" in the sense I strongly object to.

The problem is, our personality is intertwined with the negative side of the subconscious. If we want to go deeper than the surface, we need to do it in a safe way. Traditionally, astral travel/projection was taught only to people who had first learnt meditation -- not some kind of self-hypnosis! I guess there was also traditional shamanism, which as far as I know usually involved some self-torture, by exposing one to the negative side of the subconscious (as, I believe, does marijuana). The idea, as I understand it, was that the way you experience heaven was through being plunged into hell -- and thereby you would be forced to make yourself strong in a hurry, strong enough to get out of hell and therefore to get into paradise also -- once you've somehow healed all the deep scars. Sounds like abuse to me! So, as I have emphasized in this thread, you need to learn meditation first, if you're sensible and you're kind to yourself. The safest kind is awareness meditation, such as I described one simple form of in post #283. In fact, even some kinds of concentration meditation, as distinct from awareness meditation, can land you in that trouble we're trying to avoid. Though Eckankar, for example, do use mantra meditation, which is a type of concentration meditation. So maybe there's a safe way to use that too. I don't know. I'm not a member of Eckankar.

Jake

19th March 2014, 14:25

TH. I have recommitted myself to my meditative practices. I took a hiatus.. :) I have learned to stay away from trying to 'induce' the conditions for OBE. (last night, I was being taught by myself some of the nuances of mentally navigating through the dense astral that is the 'out of phase' projection of the 'real world'...) Yet, I didn't have the presence of mind to turn and face my 'teacher'. I have learned not to try and induce levels of trance, as they will occur naturally, and safely,, if I simply focus on my meditations. Sometimes I will drop into trance very fast and heavy. Sometimes it is smooth and slow. I can't help but think that my natural ability to 'project' comes from a natural tendency to drop into trance. And it is that simple!! I am also learning not to call EVERY single transcendental experience as an OUT OF BODY experience... Peeling back layers of consciousness,,, is a much better way to describe it than mind-awake/body-asleep. (Which is the traditional, Robert Monroe approach.)

Thank you for your commitment to knowledge and truth... It takes courage to embrace these aspects of self... THAT I CAN tell you, without hesitation...

I may not comment often,, but I am on the edge of my seat,,, Thank you....

Jake.

TraineeHuman

20th March 2014, 05:06

When I say that thoughts and feelings and so on come from outside of you, that's quite true and verifiable -- within the "matrix" or the "spectacles" with and through which most people view reality. You may ask, though, what does it involve to throw those spectacles and that matrix away altogether? I can tell you the answer quite simply -- as long as you understand that I'm using English. And English grammar (like the grammar of all Indo-European languages) is flawed in that it thoroughly incorporates that matrix.

It happens to be the case that everyone who experiences enlightenment experiences the complete transcending or collapsing of the subject-object distinction. That leaves them with the truly real. (I suspect chocolate has also done it, for example, even though she doesn't choose to describe it the same way.) The trouble is, English grammar dictates that every sentence you or I speak or write must be of the form subject-verb-object. English grammar dictatorially presupposes -- and creates by fiat -- subject/object divisions absolutely everywhere you look. When a person has an enlightenment experience, they see that this is a false and fallen presupposition, a pure fiction. But how to describe this -- in a language like English -- and bypass the inbuilt fiction masquerading as "the rules (of reality)"?

By the way, languages like Tibetan, Eskimo, most Polynesian and some American Indian don't have any nouns. As a result they have no subject/object distinction grammatically "legislated" into existence prior to and in defiance of reality. Instead of saying: "The cat sat on the mat," they say something a little closer to: "There is past-wise sitting mat-fashion cattishly." That's only a rough indication, because what they do actually say is partly unsayable in English.

The problem is, as every enlightened person knows or implicitly knows, nouns are a pure fiction. And unfortunately, we consider thoughts, and feelings, to be very noun-like. Actually, if one could truly, deeply understand "thought" and "feeling" as utterly nothing like nouns, as neither subjects nor objects, then I wouldn't have to say: "Practice not-thinking." One would be there already.

This does also make it tough to talk in English "about" anything like Source or Oneness. If you imagine, for instance, that Oneness is something that you can in any way treat or regard like an object, then I'm afraid much of what you'll suppose you understand about it will be way off.

Subjects and objects are pure fictions. That's the plain enlightened truth.

Having said this, in a further post or two I'll move on down and respond to Joe's recent questions not so much from the enlightened view as from the coalface of how the people around you see "reality".

Still, behind or underneath all else, there's a question that won't go away, for eternity, however much we may ignore it at times: "Can you have a relationship to, e.g., thoughts that treats them neither as objects nor as subjects (that pull your strings or your buttons or whatever)? Can you find the cracks in between subject and object and slip through them to the "other side of the looking glass", where there's the one true reality, largely or fully unveiled?"

TraineeHuman

21st March 2014, 04:29

Even if your thoughts and feelings do come from outside of you, nevertheless, you'll be saying, there's someone, something that's alive, that's the "you" or should I say the "I", that has or adopts or dons various thoughts, feelings, impulses, sensations, and so on.

But let's not forget here how deceptive thought -- the ordinary mind -- can be. (Particularly if we have some attention on the topic of possession. Not that I at all want to preempt hearing seeker Joe's views on this subject too, if he cares to comment.) Quick as lightning, the ordinary mind immediately seizes on absolutely everything all the time, and tries to stick a label on it. Unfortunately, like some magic sleight of hand trick it then pretends that the label is the reality, the only reality -- that the word is the thing. What's more, this isn't totally a bad thing. Thought is the only "organ" of consciousness that covers everything -- all that lies above and all that's below -- and invites at least some attention to be put on all of these. Thought, the great labeller. Superficial, yes. But also -- what a paradox! -- the great little torch that lights things up so that we can see them and put our attention, and thereby awareness itself on them. Otherwise, the world of the unconscious and all lower worlds would remain outside our attention. Until, that is, we stumbled into them the hard way, getting trapped in them. Likewise perhaps, all the higher worlds which perhaps may be too inaccessible for us at present.

The problem is, thinking -- thought -- constructs a whole faux-universe. And you get so strongly and subtly conditioned into mistaking that for reality -- which also means mistaking it for you, the real you. You protest: "They're my thoughts, my desires, my choices!" and so on. And I have to insist that no, they're just your personality, or mostly your personality, your self-image, and not you. At what point, then, you may wonder, can the real you please stand up, so to speak? Well, only, I claim, when we realize that the real "me" is ultimately sustained and moved by much greater forces, by something much bigger, by many higher planes of consciousness acting in harmony and in hierarchy. Leaving the superficial "me" that has all those desires and thoughts and so on to be just the surface froth of a cosmic wave that's quite different from that "me" and overshadows it in almost every way. For instance, that deeper reality within doesn't really concern itself nearly so much with "my" problems and "my" desires. Nothing belongs to us. It all comes from outside.

Having said this much, I finally feel I've laid enough background to attempt to respond specifically to Joe's recent questions.

TraineeHuman

21st March 2014, 08:56

Different types of thoughts originate from different places then, don't they?

Yes, our thoughts come from many different places. I wonder, though, if you've considered the possibility that many thoughts are the thoughts of Source? In science and so on we imagine we understand how things work. But I sugggest we don't fully understand anything. We know that if you combine X and Y you get Z or whatever, but we don't deeply understand the basics. Such as, say, just to give two examples, what is existence itself? Surely, to us, that's unknowable . How could we grasp and seize and hold the Infinite in our embrace? As if existence itself had only one particular state of being,or could ever even be defined. As if we could ever divide the indivisible. Or, what is time really, and why is it the way it is? And what would be the alternatives to it -- in some very different possible universes?

Obviously, then, it looks like I'm hinting I consider that the world we see is some sort of product of the thoughts of Source. And I do so consider. One may straight away ask, though, why did Source have such imperfect thoughts, thoughts that seem to invite so much unhappiness and conflict and limitation? The only answer to that that makes sense, I suggest, would have to be that Source itself is somehow present and working everywhere within the limitations. That Source is right here incognito, forever opening up new possibilities and pathways to creating something better.

I've been thinking a lot lately about the notion of the brain being a transmitter/receiver linking with whatever is actually doing the thinking. The mind is external, that kind of thing. So, if my inner voice can't stop singing a song in my head, does that come from some place other than the HM?

If you keep hearing a song in your head, maybe that could be a message from your intuition, which roughly amounts to the same thing as your HM, for these purposes. Intuition comes from the other side of a big veil that thoughts keep us within. Of course, the song may simply be one more part of the repetition process out of which we form "our" own personality. I don't know if you know that it's been proved that if you see a movie, it goes on replaying subliminally inside your head for about the next three days -- and it takes up about half of your consciousness for that length of time. The reason why it could be a message from your HM, though, is that the HM has a foot in both worlds. Although it knows that a person's personality is usually largely ego, the HM plays along and deeply respects and accepts the personality, all the while knowing how illusory it is and how greatly interconnected everything is. I suggest the HM's great respect for the personality is what some people are in reality talking about when they say: "God loves you, just as you are" -- because they're mistaking the HM for Source itself.

What about all the more dualistically influenced thoughts? Like your example of someone being hurt and then dwelling on a desire to exact revenge. Would those thoughts also come from the HM?

My guess is that they are more tied to this "personality" we create which exists at a lower level than the HM, and is part of the thing that you talk about us shedding on our way back to integration with our HM after we leave our physical bodies behind.

Those thoughts are, of course, egoic, as is almost everything that features polarity. I'd say that although they come from outside of you, you choose to take them in. You can choose to bring in thoughts "egoically" or not.

TraineeHuman

24th March 2014, 06:50

Stillness has many practical applications and interconnections-- including to OB travel. So far I've mentioned very few. I've also often talked of stillness as "silence". It's a major part of most things that I would call "detachment". Because I've said little so far, that's made it sound almost like it was nothing. Which, of course, it's not. Fortunately, by now people will have at least some experiential grounding in it.

Although thoughts and feelings etc come from outside us, they come strictly at our (mostly unknowing) beckoning. Everything we call "daily life", with all its problems and complications, is an exact image of what we identify as ourselves -- unknowingly in large part. This is where stillness is very valuable. We can learn to create and carry around with us a kind of "protective layer" that keeps us from identifying with, or latching onto, negative emotions or thoughts. Maybe not 100% of the time, but certainly most of the time. And not so fully at first, perhaps. That "protective layer" is the stillness. Not so protective in some ways, because there's a type of insecurity it keeps plunging us into -- which is fine, though, because of the inner peace.

We probably won't realize this when we're meditating or otherwise practicing stillness, but while we're doing that we've actually somehow let go of "our story" and "our history" and "our personality". For at least that short time, we're no longer under the temptation to compulsively grab at and identify whatever is happening as "my problems", "my temperament", "my restlessness", "my discontent", "my desires". The key, though, is to be able to detach from all of those, even throw them all away, while you are about your daily life. Although it isn't possible to live a life involved in all the complexities of mingling and working with others without adopting an identity, the key is that word "adopt". The stronger the stillness gets inside you, the more you can see your identity as something that's provisional, almost like a disposable tissue. The key is to see the world of identities and personalities and at the same time to see through your own identity, to know that it's temporary and somewhat arbitrary. And to feel the stillness at the same time. The more you learn to do this -- almost constantly, after some time --, the more free you will be to throw away your current identity and history and take on an entirely new identity tomorrow. (Of course, even with your new identity you'll still need to take responsibility for any consequences of what your old identity did.)

Stillness, and holding it for a period, is very important in psychic healing. The healer needs to have it. Otherwise the healer will take on some of the negative or weak energies being healed in the client.

To travel/project in the astral world with greater control and ease, surely it's helpful to "unglue" yourself from "your" feelings, "your" desires. Otherwise you''l be at the mercy of the latter, because you're "glued" to them, and they have a dark side you're not normally even conscious of. This is also important because in the astral world forces and energies become stronger, more intense than what they are in the physical.

Highwhistler

24th March 2014, 11:36

In my experience as a meditator, the words "stillness, emptiness & silence" ... all describe the same thing. They are words that we use to describe a foundational quality of the Universe that appears to be everywhere. That is: not only does the meditator sense, feel and know stillness-emptiness-silence during the meditative process ... but also even when she sees & feels any object in the physical world, or listens to sounds, or is talking with or touching a person ... she senses the stillness that is underneath, behind and supporting the entire Universe.

Stillness, emptiness & silence are the most natural common "elements" of all Creation, and they also are the most over-looked, under-appreciated, the most mis-understood and under-valued qualities within the human psychic Universe.

Once the meditator realizes that emptiness, stillness, silence and peace are at the foundation of all things perceived ... she realizes that she is also describing aspects of her fundamental nature.

The perception, feeling and knowing of the qualities of emptiness ... is a quantum experience. You realize in the truest sense: you are also the emptiness, silence & peace of the Universe of Universes. All of Creation, including you, is living, dancing and swirling forever within fields of emptiness.

Once you understand that you and emptiness are One -- entangled in the quantum field -- with absolute ease your perceptual & knowing abilities are set free. The emptiness that you perceive, feel and know ... is the same emptiness in the atom and between the stars. On the wings of silent emptiness, the meditator's attention can focus on the microcosm, the macrocosm, past lives, saints and sinners anywhere and everywhere, anything and everything ... for all realms of the so-called "real" & "imagined" Universes can be summoned forth, for you to experience.

You are the non-physical Presence. You, the Presence is silent and quantum. It has the ability to enter temporary bodies and empower creative existence in this world and others. Your Presence is with you in thoughts, dreams, memories ... it visits worlds within worlds, travels through infinite time, and explores, perceives, ponders, changes & assists in the expanding-evolving Universe.

But now: sense and feel it for yourself ... where are you, the Presence, living? The Presence is living in a vast world of silence, peace, tranquility, emptiness. In fact, that's your home.

25346
http://projectavalon.net/forum4//forum4/images/misc/pencil.png

chocolate

24th March 2014, 19:23

Hi TraineeHuman!
I have decided to stop by just to tell you that I have read all that your wrote recently, here and elsewhere.
At one point I felt bogged down by the weight of the forum, in whichever way people want to translate those words, and decided to step out, for a while or for longer.
I am braking that promise temporarily.
I have felt this need to stay aligned to the purpose of the forum more than to what it may feel staying logged in or out of the forum, as a place or as people.
I also want to thank Jake for his last post, because he has summed up the way I have felt for some time, too.

My reason for asking you to explain a lot of things related to possessions and thoughts came from some of my friends. Since my patience isn't all that great, on many levels, to get to explain things that are difficult enough to put in words, I thought you are the best one for the job.
I have had my own moments, but I have learnt to figure things out for myself. I still go about life this way.

The main reason I stopped today is to share that ... last night was funny. In a good and interesting way.

I was feeling rather sick since the night before. And I have this busy way of sleeping on those days.
Last night someone stopped by and offered me a hand. I was completely aware of what was going on. I was able to rise to a sitting position, Out of Body, and almost stood up, but while I was at that state, aware of what was going on, I felt...lost. I couldn't figure out where I wanted to go. I mean, it was really funny. Than I felt I may just get back in, and I tossed and turned in my bed for 2 hours later. My body was actually burning. I don't think I had fever, but it felt that way. Down by me feet I felt this strong pulsation, and also a firm tension all the way through to the crown of my head.

The person who helped me, I have to say, I apologize, but I probably am opinionated indeed.
I think later on in a dream (which I remember almost completely), I managed to visit the destination that was offered to me.

The experience was really amazing.
I am sharing here, for you, to know that someone's making some conscious progress! (who knows, I might get enlightened all of a sudden :) ).
I have had some of those before, but that was somehow different.

Now I need to figure out where I do want to go (OOB).
That is the funny part.

Thank you for all the effort you have put forward!
And thank you person, who stopped by. Next time I promise to be better prepared.

:)
this life is funny this way...

chocolate

25th March 2014, 09:33

I am listening to this talk right now.
I just remembered about some audio files I once encountered from Stephen LaBerge. I did use them at the time.

QRs8sR3B2AY

:)

TraineeHuman

26th March 2014, 12:22

Highwhistler has said that self-inquiry / psychotherapy etc isn't necessary if you have established the stillness strongly enough within you -- or words to that effect. And I happen to know she's quite right. If a person has reached the stage where the stillness is truly strong, then they can indeed use it to kind of blot out any negativity, or temptation to negativity etc at all, that arises. And yes, this is much, much more effective and final than endlessly reflecting on each particular individual failing or particular incident in one's life after another.

What I'm saying, though, is that before one attains that deep level of stillness there are less deep levels which are still basically very effective. chocolate has been talking of "possession", though perhaps (because I take it English isn't her first language) I suspect she also means less extreme influence or control by beings or personalities other than our own. Certainly, stillness is the best antidote, and the only full antidote, for all such interference. These days it's considered normal to let in every passing urge to feel fear, or anger, or desire, and so on. But the truth is, fear and anger and hurt and so on and on are continually prowling around outside us. The "normal" person lets them in instantly, without even realizing they're coming from outside. They have a free admission pass. The "normal" person reacts to so much, so often. Each time they do, a little demonculus of negativity takes over their body and their consciousness for a fleeting moment at least. At that moment of reflex-like reaction, the person identifies totally with the demonculus. They literally then are the anger, or whatever.

The point is, though, that through cultivating such things as silent meditation, or not-thinking, or feeling the aliveness, or awareness of the stillness, or presence, we begin to see all those negative would-be feelings of ours actually prowling around. We can learn to let fewer and fewer of them in, less and less often.

To me this is one of the most important things that true spirituality involves. The more fully we can hold that dual consciousness (of stillness and of the rest of reality), where we strongly feel the stillness burning brightly, or peacefully, and at the same time we can discern some negative feeling or impulse or an identity, the more fully we can burn the latter away, never to return -- not in quite that form, anyway. To me this is the (main) ultimate point of practicing meditation at all. It's such a huge gate to freedom.

There are some things that I had to work out for myself, where it took decades before I found and understood what worked, exactly. If someone had told me about this stuff thirty or fifty years ago, I feel that would have saved me years. So I hope this post helps someone else now. The stillness does come, after a while, through meditation and other similar practices.

chocolate

26th March 2014, 13:28

Thank you, TraineeHuman, that is exactly the way I have felt it, too.

And by saying that I have learnt to figure things out for myself, I have managed to do so in the way you have described above. Not that I knew several years ago the exact terms and words for that state to be able to describe it, but I know the act of being at this state of, let me call it "quietness" for myself, and the feeling while at it. That is also one of the reasons I seek quiet environment constantly.

My life has been not very ordinary, and also not very easy, and the only way for me to make it (alive) thus far, however perfect or not at present my life could seem, is through relying on my own inner or intuitive knowing. Society and family can suppress and had suppressed my intuitive voice for a very long time, but whenever I needed it, it came and gave me a hand (or two).

I used "possessions" because of the way it was discussed elsewhere, it is an exact copy-paste from a thread.
And language is just totally exhausting my powers, to be honest.
In order for me to write here, I need to invest a lot of energy and concentration, to manage to come across semi-normal, sane or appropriate.

:)

I hope EVERYONE comes here to read your last post. :wave:

EDITED TO ADD:
I just came back here to ask a simple question. It came to me yesterday after I fell to sleep in the afternoon. But I didn't know how to express it until your last post.
For some time I know of a person who has been (involuntarily I hope) influencing the way I feel. It is both physical and also reflects on my state of 'mind'. I have never met this person, but I am aware that such indirect influence is possible and happens more often than people realize.

Does this mean I need to be in a state of constant "stillness" or "quietness", or how do I achieve a detachment, for it is an unpleasant feeling that I experience? Is there a way to limit this influence completely?

Joe Akulis

26th March 2014, 13:49

"If a person has reached the stage where the stillness is truly strong, then they can indeed use it to kind of blot out any negativity, or temptation to negativity etc at all, that arises."

Why? :-)

Why work towards this elimination of negativity?

Time to reiterate the reasons for all of this inner work. What are we prepping ourselves for?

We're trying to become the kind of person that no one would have any concerns about handing great power to. Most of us don't have to look very far to see examples today of people who have one form of power or another, even if it is in this limited physical existence, and even here they can't handle the "responsibility" of it. Being responsible with power means learning all about and mastering how to use it, AND knowing what kinds of effects your use of power will have on you and everything else around you. Why give power to someone who gets angry at the drop of a hat? Or seeks retribution for an insult?

By seeking the OBE experiences that were at the heart of this thread to begin with, we are asking to be allowed into a territory where "what you think" can now be manifested in an instant. So if you can still be offended by things, and if you still entertain urges to seek retribution for an offense, why would you want to hastily dive into a place where there would be nothing stopping you from causing that harm?

The place where we currently reside is here for us to learn that maturity. We have a great school where we are teaching ourselves all about the power that we will inherit one day. If we race to put that power in our hands--the power to think something and have it happen--without understanding it, and learning about what it means to be responsible for it, then we will only bring harm. (And more often than not, that harm will be to yourself.)

While we are still here on Earth, learn everything you can about this next dimension where our evolution will take us, from people who have been there. That will help us to understand what we will need to pack for the trip. All this inner work that has been covered here, it's on our packing list. But when you're working out your list, understand what it is for: To be allowed into a place where what you think with your mind becomes real. If you don't prepare, you can end up trapped in something of your own making. Or causing more harm than you realized you could. Or setting back your growth by a mile.

How do we practice? You can practice a limited form of that power to create while you're here. Know that you can lay out your own reality here. Begin to set up for yourself here in this lifetime the lessons that you need in order to become a more responsible soul. Just by placing this desire in the forefront of your thoughts from day to day will cause it to happen.

TraineeHuman

26th March 2014, 13:56

last night was funny. In a good and interesting way.

I was feeling rather sick since the night before. And I have this busy way of sleeping on those days.
Last night someone stopped by and offered me a hand. I was completely aware of what was going on. I was able to rise to a sitting position, Out of Body, and almost stood up, but while I was at that state, aware of what was going on, I felt...lost. I couldn't figure out where I wanted to go. I mean, it was really funny. Than I felt I may just get back in, and I tossed and turned in my bed for 2 hours later. My body was actually burning. I don't think I had fever, but it felt that way. Down by me feet I felt this strong pulsation, and also a firm tension all the way through to the crown of my head.

The person who helped me, I have to say, I apologize, but I probably am opinionated indeed.
I think later on in a dream (which I remember almost completely), I managed to visit the destination that was offered to me.

The experience was really amazing.
...
I have had some of those before, but that was somehow different.

Now I need to figure out where I do want to go (OOB).
That is the funny part.

If the person who helped you the other night was myself, chocolate, the only memory I have is that I know that someone connected with the Forum did consider they got some help from me that night (or morning, in my time zone). Maybe I should explain that I attempt to make myself available as a healer in the astral worlds now and then. But my preferred method of healing is to be "nothing", to be still as far as possible and simply let the the Light "flow". The less I consciously try to do, the more effective the healing will generally be. And no, while I'm doing that I'm definitely not being used by some unfriendly djinn etc. I do, however, happily work in collaboration with healing angels -- who are mostly quite evolved dead humans.

Having said that, I do happen to know I briefly appeared in about half the dreams that members have described in this thread. It's been quite amusing to read their descriptions of this character in their dreams. What I always had attempted to do was to exit their dream/etc as quickly as possible and return into stillness. But I've still managed to get a glimpse of their dream in each case. In psychic healing, the healer simply facilitates the client's self-healing rather than trying to get involved. But it's been interesting the way I've seen many details, for example beasutiful luminous-blue wriggling shapes and lines seeming to form into amoebas and quickly going through a very accelerated version of the evolution of biological life, that featured in one member's dream, and so on.

Whoever helped you, chocolate, I've no doubt they only did so because you were obviously quite ready and very able to move out of your body -- which doesn't surprise me. The pulsation and "burning" experiences were quite normal for a first conscious OB travel experience. Congratulations.

And while we're on the subject of healing, may I mention in passing that in my experience negative energies and entities and even personalities can and do get removed and taken "upstairs" by angelic beings. But "eaten", as some members dogmatically assert? In the astral and mental worlds, food -- and, for that matter, money -- doesn't exist. In its place there's energy, or life-force. I do know that negative energies get removed from further interaction with the physical world. Trouble is, all electromagnetic energy is actually astral and/or mental, but it interacts with the physical -- and physics treats it as part of the physical world. If the entity doesn't have a soul, isn't a fragment of Source, then in my experience that usually means it's electromagnetic -- it's just a thought-emotion-form. In that case, removal from all further interaction with the physical world will indeed mean destruction of its entire form and structure -- but without destruction of the pure e-m energy that made it up, because the latter can't be destroyed.

chocolate

26th March 2014, 14:42

TH, it is possible that the person who helped me was you. All I saw was an avatar related to the forum. I don't want to name who's avatar I saw, because this is a personal matter. It wasn't your avatar, but in all possibility it could have been you, I usually 'see' things which seem not obviously related. And that experience that night was nothing less than amazing. I was also sick in a very strange manner ( I had a dream of having the flu or virus Bobd mentioned in a recent thread, and I woke up that night from very strong chills, which later on did not appear again...). That situation would explain why you may have appeared, probably we are indeed connected on levels above.

I have never had any doubts about your and anything related with what you can do. You are an amazing person, that much I know.

But here I was asking about someone else. It started a month or so ago. A male person, who I haven't met in real life.

In general I have managed to connect with people in my life, predominantly family and men, who I have happened to meet in real life, and somehow connected to me (not always in a physical way).

I will figure this one out somehow.
I will ask for help my intuitive helpers. :)

EDITED TO ADD:
TH, I figured things out. Helpers helped. :)

powessy

26th March 2014, 23:29

TH, it is possible that the person who helped me was you. All I saw was an avatar related to the forum. I don't want to name who's avatar I saw, because this is a personal matter. It wasn't your avatar, but in all possibility it could have been you, I usually 'see' things which seem not obviously related. And that experience that night was nothing less than amazing. I was also sick in a very strange manner ( I had a dream of having the flu or virus Bobd mentioned in a recent thread, and I woke up that night from very strong chills, which later on did not appear again...). That situation would explain why you may have appeared, probably we are indeed connected on levels above.

I have never had any doubts about your and anything related with what you can do. You are an amazing person, that much I know.

But here I was asking about someone else. It started a month or so ago. A male person, who I haven't met in real life.

In general I have managed to connect with people in my life, predominantly family and men, who I have happened to meet in real life, and somehow connected to me (not always in a physical way).

I will figure this one out somehow.
I will ask for help my intuitive helpers. :)

http://www.starseeds.net/forum/categories/starseed-talk/listForCategory maybe a place to seek the answers you are looking for.

Highwhistler

27th March 2014, 11:50

Stillness is the common denominator of the entire Universe. If its not out front and obvious to your attention ... then it's underneath and behind whatever you are experiencing.

Once you understand what it is -- that it is outside, inside, and throughout you and part of your being -- then you can have conscious stillness "anytime," in less than the twinkle of an eye.

Also, stillness is eternal. It is not bounded by space and time. It is ever-present as part of the fabric of the Universe ... whether we are focused on it, or not.

25373

TraineeHuman

27th March 2014, 11:58

"If a person has reached the stage where the stillness is truly strong, then they can indeed use it to kind of blot out any negativity, or temptation to negativity etc at all, that arises."

Why? :-)

Why work towards this elimination of negativity?

Ouch! My arm hurts because you're twisting it, Joe. Your post is forcing me to reveal some tough esoteric truths. These are usually kept secret, and guarded with great care.

The truth is, if an individual starts to get good at going into Stillness even a little, then Life, and indeed Source, will start plunging them into hells -- purely to make them stronger in the end. The individual doesn't need to flagellate themselves or go ascetic or anything ridiculous like that. Life will take them to tougher places automatically -- provided they don't seclude themselves from the world. The truth is, the only way to experience a heaven is by going through the guts of a hell first. There is no other way. And someone who has attained a kind of permanent immersion in stillness like Highwhistler can only have gotten there by going through all the hells and out the other side. That's not through any denial of negativity, then -- wouldn't you say? I understand one of the most popular lines from any song ever is: "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." Substitute "Stillness" for "freedom" if you like (not that there's any need to), and there you have it n a nutshell.

Stillness will take you further and further out of the narrow "bandwidth" most people these days live in. A broader "bandwidth" means you have to discover how you're really far more animalistic than you ever imagined (the "hell" side) but also more angelic or divine (the "heaven" side). Each hell is a gate to a heaven, to a certain amount of bliss. In the past I've already said I beg your pardon, but I never promised you a rose garden -- except near the end of the great journey.

In two days or so I'll have time to continue (can you all, dare I ask, really handle, um, the truth?) and also to address the rest of your post, Joe.

Highwhistler

27th March 2014, 12:06

"If a person has reached the stage where the stillness is truly strong, then they can indeed use it to kind of blot out any negativity, or temptation to negativity etc at all, that arises."

Why? :-)

Why work towards this elimination of negativity?

For me ... here's my perspective and what I do:

I do not try to push negativity away, eliminate it or blot it out.

I allow negativity to exist. After all, it is part of the grand Universe and of course, the quantum field.

That being said, I simply do not put my attention on it. By not putting my attention on negativity, it is allowed to exist somewhere ... but it does not have a home in my thoughts, feelings & spirit.

Again: I allow everything in the Multiverse to exist ... but then the key for me is to put my attention on the things that I want to see, feel, experience, ponder, remember, imagine ... including the non-physical things like stillness, tranquility, gratitude, presence, and the nature and abilities of the attention, itself.

The attention is one of the most powerful things in the human Universe. It creates and guides your present experience and set's-up a lot of what you will be experiencing in the future.

Thanks to all of you for sharing your insights & experiences!

25374

TraineeHuman

27th March 2014, 20:25

As long as we are in a physical body, our task is firstly to transform ourselves and then, having done that, to transform our immediate surroundings.

As I said, the stillness takes us through the self-transformation process by leading us to transform all our inner hells into heavens. This is the process of attaining freedom from unhappiness. And it's quite doable.

Then, to anyone else a particular situation may seem like being in hell, but by the end of this process to us it'll always seem like being in heaven. We may even forget that it ever was a hell, because everywhere around us, wherever we go, inside ourselves we genuinely feel like we're in heaven. That's the take on things that we end up adopting. We're fundamentally happy no matter what.

That's not to say that the physical world or the society and civilisation we live in is perfect, by any means. Rather, it's full of limitations and chaos and error everywhere. But in our homes and workplaces and everywhere we go, we now have the attitude that we can always find solutions to any problems. We automatically become proactive and purveyors of good will and a positive atmosphere, wherever we are.

My choice of the phrase "blotting out the negativity" was unfortunately ambiguous and probably misleading, but this is what I meant by it. This involves seeing reality more clearly, yet also continually having a positive take on things wherever it's realistic, or potentially realistic, to have that. And even if it's a tragic situation, within ourselves we'll still remain happy just at the fact of our existence.

chocolate

28th March 2014, 13:58

You know TH, I can handle the truth, I just hope I'm alive at that point to be able to read your post.

But you are indeed a remarkable being. I guess if I let my more powerful reality take control of the present situation, I will be able to handle the truth, when it becomes revealed.

I hope you are well and will continue to be so,
chocolate

TraineeHuman

28th March 2014, 16:02

... by saying that I have learnt to figure things out for myself, I have managed to do so in the way you have described above. Not that I knew several years ago the exact terms and words for that state to be able to describe it, but I know the act of being at this state of, let me call it "quietness" for myself, and the feeling while at it. That is also one of the reasons I seek quiet environment constantly.

My life has been not very ordinary, and also not very easy, and the only way for me to make it (alive) thus far, however perfect or not at present my life could seem, is through relying on my own inner or intuitive knowing. Society and family can suppress and had suppressed my intuitive voice for a very long time, but whenever I needed it, it came and gave me a hand (or two). ...

... to ask a simple question. It came to me yesterday after I fell to sleep in the afternoon. But I didn't know how to express it until your last post.
For some time I know of a person who has been (involuntarily I hope) influencing the way I feel. It is both physical and also reflects on my state of 'mind'. I have never met this person, but I am aware that such indirect influence is possible and happens more often than people realize.

Does this mean I need to be in a state of constant "stillness" or "quietness", or how do I achieve a detachment, for it is an unpleasant feeling that I experience? Is there a way to limit this influence completely?

As far as identifying who this unwelcome person or being is, chocolate, I'd prefer to leave that to you right now, since you're intuitively quite sensitive. Though if you don't succeed in working it out some time soon, I'm happy to try then.

In my experience of such cases, maybe 50% of the time such an interfering being is a dead relative. Usually a grandparent or parent or aunt or uncle. When such a relative was alive, they considered it was appropriate for them to keep an eye on how your life was progressing, and they felt that if they voiced their concern at something, it would have a real influence on you or at least your parents. If the person bothering you is such a relative, then they're being unpleasant because you're doing something way outside their standards or their expectations of you -- which may be very conservative, say, but may well also contain some wisdom that comes from life experience and the valuable insight and good judgment that comes with older age.

It so happens my father died when I was 17, and after that he was a huge nuisance to me in the astral for 31 years after that -- which was an unusually long time, all right. Both my parents had very hard lives even though they were talented and intelligent individuals. My dead father felt I wasn't honoring all the sacrifices they made for the sake of giving my brother and me a better life. My brother became a lawyer specializing in international commercial law, and his company is worth some millions at least. I was supposed to become something like that. So, some relatives can hang around in the astral and won't budge for years, and you may not be able to get rid of them altogether. But you can still do something to lessen their impact on you, as I'll explain eventually.

Another, similar or overlapping category is well-meaning would-be guides (dead people who may or may not have known you) who aren't quite highly evolved enough to be helpful, even though they do mean well.

A different category again is dead ratbags, criminals, con artists, and so on. Typically these are not so highly evolved. Or, even if they are, they are a little malicious. They enjoy annoying you or playing tricks on you. And because you're intuitively sensitive, chocolate, and you no doubt look like a bright light to them, they can target you easily and know that their unpleasant messages will or can be easily received.

Another category is that of the Dark Forces, or the demonic beings. I'm not sure everyone realizes that all such beings, though very powerful in some cases, are only allowed to exist and exert power by the ultimately more powerful forces of good and Truth. And only for a time. At present, the Dark Forces still serve a useful purpose. They are the ones behind putting people through hell whenever they take a big step to evolve, or make a genuine attempt to do so. For instance, suppose on a certain day you know you've had the inspiration o whatever to truly "go for it" and take a step to greater evolvement. Bang. All hell breaks loose in your life. Everything seems to fall apart, tempting you to cave in to being overwhelmed by a horrible feeling in the pit of your stomach. This is no accident. This is the Dark Forces at work, testing you. By taking that step maybe you've overcome one big weakness you had, but those Forces will immediately bring up ten other weaknesses you didn't fully realize you had up till now. Not only that, they'll cause those weaknesses to suddenly all manifest repercussions, to some degree, in your daily life. As I said in my last two posts , the only way to a heaven is through the depths of a hell first. And those Forces are there to make damn well sure of this. The final purpose of the benevolent Forces, who may not act right now but who are superior to all the demonic Forces, is to enable you to grow stronger quicker. By the way,my understanding is that we weren't meant to take drugs or do black magic, because that generally invites more powerful Dark Forces in than we can handle at the time.

In another post I'll make soon, I'll make at least some general comments on how to handle all of the above categories, and also one or two I haven't mentioned yet. Of course, chocolate, since you already know how to use stillness to deal with anything negative, that's one of the biggest tools already.

If one goes astral traveling, one may get to see all of these types of beings around. That's why I've suggested things like grounding yourself before you go to bed and setting up psychic protection in advance, and using positive healing energy everywhere you go in those worlds.

TraineeHuman

29th March 2014, 14:02

chocolate

29th March 2014, 17:43

TraineeHuman,
My ego had no objections while reading your last post, not even one.
And that comes from an ex-emotional freak.
( Something like the ex-smoker type of a guy. )

I wanted to share this with you: Sevan Bomar - Astral Quest - Season 1 Episode 4 (http://livestre.am/4BrEh) .
( I have to say I lost my original link, I am listening to this part right now. The first video I watched was as if coming out of your posts. )
I don't know how to post the actual video here, but if you click on the link it will lead to a separate window. I am trying to share the first video, which is about 3 hours long, but those are some good 3 hours.
There is a person who speaks language I can understand ( let's say someone like you, just a bit different ).

Sending some (newly discovered) positive vibes! Or at least trying,
Chocolate

Edited to add:
I forgot to say: Thank you for your offer to help.
I hope to be able to take care of all of this on my own. Or put differently, I'd rather not involve anyone into this apart from myself.

I guess if I run into a major trouble, somehow you'll know, even if I am not forum-present at the time.

:)

~~~

Okay, I figured it out ( That is what I wanted to share before ):
V2tBSxxhh3Y

But because the video/ sound quality is bad on utube, there is a better one: Sevan Bomar – Astral Quest – Season 1 Episode 5 (http://livestre.am/4C5xa)
Just seeing someone talk about the same what you have been talking about here, and what I have been thinking on occasion, makes me feel better. Much better.

~~~

TraineeHuman

30th March 2014, 03:47

TraineeHuman,
My ego had no objections while reading your last post, not even one.
And that comes from an ex-emotional freak.
( Something like the ex-smoker type of a guy. )

Yes, but the ego is very clever and cunning, in its way, because it has hijacked a copy of all your thinking "software", so to speak, and it knows you intimately. And the ego is a living thing inside you, with intelligence and some life-force. Often when the ego feels there's too much heat on it, it retreats into the shadows where you can't be aware of what it's doing, or planning to do. In a day or a week or two, it will come out of the shadows and casually throw you an impulse to forget all of what was in my post, or that that information wasn't too important and you don't need to worry about it. The ego manipulates you by being inconsistent like this -- often apparently disappearing from your view for a time.

TraineeHuman

30th March 2014, 09:08

I haven't experienced physical intrusion as you have been experiencing, chocolate. But as you say -- however reluctant most members would seem to be to consider the possibility -- , Hitchhikers/etc do seem to live deep inside most people and probably everyone, and there's also more interference going on from other personalities than most would consider likely or believable.

The best ways to get rid of almost any kind or level of interference are similar. So I'd like to briefly discuss some of them in general terms. As I've already in effect said, they can only intrude if they've got an "in", a hook into you, which you've unwittingly given them. Also, if you can identify who they are -- or even that they're there -- , that's almost half the battle, because now you can apply the power of your awareness. You can also hopefully demand that they tell you who they are and what they are doing there. But you may need to concentrate hard to make sure they're not trying to sell you a fib.

Let me describe how a Hitchhiker typically gets attached to your body and psyche. Typically, you feel inadequate in some area. It could be anything. Maybe as a kid you just don't know how to cope with bullies, and there's a bully who's been beating you up. Or for some reason you would love to have a certain talent that you obviously lack -- maybe you'd desperately like to be a professional musician or whatever, but you lack the talent. Usually this happens while you're a kid, but voila! Suddenly a new personality attaches itself to you that's expert in the very skill you've been lacking. You're probably not going to ask too many questions, and you'll allow this new "side to your personality" to remain a part of you. In every situation of your life, though, its vote will now carry a certain weight, and probably very considerable weight for all situations it considers itself expert in. The only trouble is, sometimes, at certain crucial points in your life, a Hitchhiker will manage to take over so dominatingly that you end up doing something the real you didn't want, and that isn't good for you in the long run.

So, I'm saying it helps greatly if you can identify and admit the area of weakness you have that your intruder is taking advantage of to connect with you.

Another thing you absolutely need to do may sound strange. Let's consider the fact that all the other dimensions are actually here, but we simply don't see them most of the time. If the intruder comes from the astral, they can stand in your space and usually you won't notice that they're there. In that way, you've unknowingly been giving tacit permission for the intruder and any others to occupy part of your space. What you now have to do is say: "Hey! This body and this room is my space. Keep out! Go now, and don't ever come back," or maybe something slightly more polite but meaning the same thing. It helps greatly if you already truly accept yourself and like yourself just as you are.

chocolate

30th March 2014, 11:52

Thank you, TraineeHuman.
You are correct on almost all points. I can probably assume you are 100% correct.
I haven't even seen the complete scope of this probably.

I know who the person is with almost 100% certainty.
I know that he can astral project at will, something he probably has learnt during his childhood. He has been subjected to a level of physical and psychological trauma (probably). He has become aware of this himself. I know that because of the few emails we exchanged while I still wasn't completely aware of what is going on.

I was a bit careless to allow for the situation to happen. And yes, it happened because there was one area where I am more vulnerable than the rest of me.
Or perhaps I somehow knew it was going to happen, and I knew I will be able to handle it.
A lot more serious has happened to me, but never in this way. I think.

I tried to iron myself out for several years, and because my intention was probably pure enough, I was given everything I needed to accomplish that. Except for that certain personal area.

I also have to say I tend to accept people from their positive side, and that can lead me to some unpleasant encounters later.

What had been happening to me is closely connected to this person, and to this forum, unfortunately, but I can't blame anyone except myself.
I managed to find help while on the forum, in your face and in the faces of some of my friends, for which I will be forever grateful.

Synchronicity would have it you wrote what I was planning to write in the other thread. I would prefer not to write on any thread for a while, and I also will not visit the forum for a while, or for longer. I will come by your space and read your posts, though.

I have noted your advice, and I also took matters in my own hands, so to speak, so that I try to untangle the situation.
I thank you again!

Chocolate

chocolate

30th March 2014, 12:07

powessy

30th March 2014, 17:26

I also need to note the following. ( I would like to prevent certain amount of discomfort to anyone who decides to take matters in their own hands, too, hoping to help me in some way ).

First off, I have to point out that the person I am referring to hasn't visited openly this thread. He is not related to it in any direct way. But he has read it, especially he has read all my posts here. ( I am well aware of that ).
He is also quite young, and probably much more careless than would be good for all of this work to be done without harming another person.

Another detail I can add is that this person might have been subjected to a lot of pain, something similar, if not identical, to the way people have been 'conditioned' by MK Ultra / Milabs. He may also have implant inside of him for better control over him. I am not certain of this, but I suspect it to be true. ( As to the purpose of this whole situation, I take it it isn't any good. )

In this way not only he can be controlled, but also the people who he gets in contact with, with or without his knowledge. And that could lead to danger for the other individual. ( I have tried to warn some people of this, but I take it the message itself wasn't understood correctly, and I also noted a certain level of resentment going on. Which is fine with me, as long as those others take care on their end. The people know who they are )

That is why I don't ask for help at this stage.
I don't doubt people's abilities ( your abilities ), but if there is a human ( or not ) technology involved, I don't think the solution would be all that easy.

I would rely on the person himself to put an end to this first. I know he is reading, and I hope he will read the full message too.

After that, I will see.

I am writing this because I see a miss understanding forming ( TH, you are not involved in this, I have message to prove it ) as of who that might be.

TH

I promised myself that I would not interfere with your thread or advice again, other then to read and try to understand things from another perspective such as yours. You bring much information and respect to this topic, I commend you. I grew up to all this through self exploration and realization never trying to seek others advice perhaps my personality ratings reflect this fact Introvert(67%) iNtuitive(62%) Thinking(50%) Perceiving(22%), a little self realization here. A promise now broken for I wish to speak upon this issue.

chocolate

In the early days of my awakening, I to came under attack through the astral by a group of people not just one. I to believe that these people are watching these post's rather closely, there searching for something they will not get if i can help it. I believed this group to be from western European countries due to the times of attack moving in the line from Italy to Spain in this vicinity or window. This group is run by three individuals of money and power and they prey on the weak. This is why I kept trying to ask for details about what was going on with you. This group is weak, and I would say their now missing something they will never get back. Having any trouble getting out, what ever could be your problem.

If this attack is coming from a lone source or group "I'm your huckleberry". You have all the information you need to play, I will find you now that I know there is more of you remaining. I am now interfering in this, and have set things in motion they will block these attacks from happening, there space is shrinking and it will be easier to find them now. The only thing you will see in the astral pretty soon will be me, so come on down. If I don't find you now I will get you later.

Joe Akulis

31st March 2014, 19:54

Joe, the thing that the stillness is most obviously the opposite of, I would say, is not negativity, but excitement -- for lack of a more precise word. It's also certainly the "antidote" for excitement, or at least for all addiction to excitement. This is particularly so in the world of emotions, and hence in all of the astral levels. All true feelings, I claim, come from somewhere much deeper and higher within than that.

And once we have hopefully learnt all the lessons we needed to learn about how to master power and everything else, I would describe what we move on to as more like an empty emotional slate, a stiller emotional "body". Words can be tricky, but the sense is more that we don't take all the lessons in growing up emotionally with us. Rather, we leave them all behind then, because we no longer need to bother about issues in such an area.

Getting back to before we've graduated, the truth is, for most people the world of their emotions is a big part of the ego's kingdom. It's not the real them. It's all a big monkey, continually mocking the true consciousness within. I would say one of the ego's chief weapons or tricks is to get us to take our emotions -- how we emotionally "feel" -- for truth, the truth, the only truth. Sentimentality of any kind is 100% (egoic) emotion, I'm afraid, and not true feeling. The truth is, emotional excitement is rather closely related to the root of unhappiness. We don't realize that this is so because of the time gap between our (that is, our ego's, taking us over) feeling excited and the unhappiness that hits us later on, maybe days later.

The ego likes infatuation just as much as hate, deprivation as much as overindulgence, and so on. It craves extremes. One sure way to tell when the ego is at work is that the ego can't genuinely help others (except by accident and unintentionally). Yes, it helps, or strokes, others' egos -- but only in so far as creating excitement or drama together. The ego doesn't actually care about others, at all. The other person's ego, or even your ego, may for example decide in an instant to flip to the opposite emotion -- simply because that way there's greater drama. The ego only cares about drama, whatever gives greater excitement in the moment. This is the false kind of "living for the moment". There's a very famous opera aria titled "La donna (est) mobile", i.e. "Woman is fickle". A more truthful and nonsexist song could have been called: "Sentiment is fickle," or "The ego is fickle".

But stillness is a much more authentically masterful condition. One which involves a much more panoramic view of all that is going on. Despite the neutrality which the ordinary mind wrongly imagines stillness to imply, stillness is extremely positive and more fully knowing, and that positivity radiates and shines and uplifts. And did I mention the greater energy and the sense of generous authority and the freedom from unhappiness?

Now I'm wondering what the ego of anyone who reads this will do. Deny it? Forget it as quickly as possible, and dull all memory of it? Dismiss it as just an ideal or a concept and not the lived reality?

Not sure about others, but for myself, I would say that since I've been a student of this thread for over a year now, as well as a student of many of the OOB authors that have been mentioned, I've already made some decent strides toward owning my ego instead of having it own me (I hope), and understanding the layers of the universe and where the ego leaves the scene on your way inwards.

I think the best my ego can do for now is try to keep my interest elsewhere on other things that don't involve this subject.

I did have a neat dream last night, so pull up a chair, and I'll fill you in on me lately.

I took a crack at using the OOB induction method from "The Phase", where you wake up early, grab a drink of water, then go back to sleep and focus on trying to catch yourself just as you're waking up. I ended up being a little too excited about it and never fell back to sleep. :-)

Then for some reason, I haven't been inclined to try again. I've batted around reasons and excuses in my head for a few days now wondering if I should blame myself for not being dedicated enough to it, especially since I'm pretty obsessed with the topic lately.

Then this morning, I had a pretty clear dream about driving along a road that leads from my parents house where I grew up. At a certain stretch in the road, there were numerous children at play in the road, and once they noticed that I was in a hurry to get past them and keep moving on, they got worse and started putting themselves right in my way. This made me upset to the point that I put such a priority on the hurry I was in that I ran over some of their legs and sped out of there to get on with my trip.

The dream didn't trouble me at all, again because I react to a lot of things more analytically nowadays rather than emotionally, but in the shower I think I figured out the message to me.

If you think of my parent's house where I grew up as my old mindset, with the beliefs that I have moved beyond now, you might say that the dream was a message to me that in my life at this time, I may be in too much of a rush to further my development by working towards these OBE's, and my impatience to get "out there" is/or could cause harm to my kids. (I have four, all still young.)

I think I take the message as a confirmation that it's okay to wait a little longer before seeking to go OBE, to keep making my kids the priority for now. That's the meaning that seems to fit for me, but there could be other ways to read it too.

Seeker

TraineeHuman

1st April 2014, 01:46

I think the best my ego can do for now is try to keep my interest elsewhere on other things that don't involve this subject.

Joe, it's the HM -- the Stillness -- that does all the astral traveling. Period. If a person has integrated into it (allowed it to "bring itself down and in"), then it can quite easily go astral or mental traveling, if it so chooses. I certainly don't believe that trying to unnaturally force it to take you astral traveling is what it's all about. The Phase, or whatever name you give that. Nor that that has much value.

On the other hand, your HM will go on teaching you and slowly integrating more with you, because it sets up your major life experiences that teach you valuably and advance you a little anyway -- with your kids, at work, and so on. Some of the things you least expect to be lessons you needed often turn out to be the biggest lessons.

The whole notion that one can manipulate the HM to give one an astral travel experience seems crazy to me. That would be to treat the HM as if it were an object, which it sure ain't. I did describe some exercises early in the thread, but in my mind the idea was purely to coax the HM to come and play. I was genuinely shocked to discover that seemingly everyone seemed to take it for granted that the exercises were some kind of technology -- some means to force or conquer or rape the astral environment, as it were. Instead of taking the gentle but supremely powerful Presence of reality for granted. I'm sorry the phrase "how to make them happen" in the thread title was evidently that misleading to some people. Quite naively, right at the beginning it hadn't even occurred to me that anyone with any sense or understanding would try to force astral travel to happen. And then I realised that everyone was doing that! I'd like to think that isn't how I usually make things happen. I believe I do it in some kind or degree of collaboration with Stillness. It's a co-creation. Like a dance. You move together, not individually. Even if sometimes Stillness is your only partner -- and no matter if the whole population of the world is sitting on the other end of the lever. Any other way would be miserable, and so stiflingly dull. You have to walk hand in hand with joy or peace in life, and have it and work to keep it strongly there inside, even if circumstances are temporarily making you sweat on the outside. The other approach is a product of the insanely sick Western mind. I thought that on this Forum, everyone was looking at doing everything a slightly different way than that!

I still need to spend ten minutes each morning in meditation. Because I already have the Stillness descended and (partly) released, I guess for me it is indeed like just flicking on a switch for ten minutes. Kind of like when you let yourself relax after a very busy and tiring day. Just beautiful. Then, somehow, the "aftertaste" of that ten minutes of staying fully in the Stillness stays and stays with me throughout the day. Even at times when I don't immediately notice that it still must be there.

TraineeHuman

1st April 2014, 06:48

I wanted to share this with you: Sevan Bomar - Astral Quest - Season 1 Episode 4 (http://livestre.am/4BrEh) .
( I have to say I lost my original link, I am listening to this part right now. The first video I watched was as if coming out of your posts. )
I don't know how to post the actual video here, but if you click on the link it will lead to a separate window. I am trying to share the first video, which is about 3 hours long, but those are some good 3 hours.
There is a person who speaks language I can understand

... But because the video/ sound quality is bad on utube, there is a better one: Sevan Bomar – Astral Quest – Season 1 Episode 5 (http://livestre.am/4C5xa)

Interesting angle on conditioning in this video, chocolate (the second video, that's captured directly in your post). I believe the main point at the beginning is that the matrix of how our society is set up forces us to enact and manifest or, like it or not, support a certain rather enslaved situation -- and even, especially, on subtle levels of reality. That without being fully aware of it, we make ourselves entrapped in the control of demonic or otherwise hostile beings of some kind.

It seems clear, though, that some individuals can be aware of and see through all of that control. And that such awareness brings us the subtle power to largely remove, or minimize, the effects of the psychic enslavement. (In the English language, "possession" is a word that has a special and extreme meaning, in relation to exorcism and so on. I guess how you mean it, chocolate, may be more along the lines that psychically these beings may in many ways be acting like they're our owners.) For instance, I've pointed out that those people who have enlightenment experiences go fully beyond the subject/object distinction, even though in Indo-European languages the language itself presupposes (in its grammar) that such a thing is impossible, or meaningless. Similarly, through sufficient awareness it's possible for us to transcend the demonic matrix, whatever the "language" and the distorted, narrow view of reality may be that that matrix imposes on us. It doesn't matter if we have litle choice but to support "the system" as part of our work -- often even if we are intelligent and lucky enough to be successfully self-employed.

But yes. I agree with you that people often underestimate the power of (negative) conditioning on them. The conditioning the man in the video talks of is socioeconomic, and cultural in the sense of modern Western culture. Negative conditioning on a specific individual from others in their life is also, I believe, deceptively deep-reaching and difficult to extricate oneself from fully. I was somewhat brought down to earth about eight years ago by a lesson in this area. At that time I had the sudden insight that what I thought were some of my biggest passions in life ultimately came from my (by then dead) stepfather's values, not those of my true self. Eight years ago I thought I had peeled off so many layers of the onion already, dropped so many identities and points of view and so on. I even knew for certain who the five individuals in my life were in association with whom I had the greatest degree of negative conditioning. They were, in order, my ex-wife, my mother, father, brother, and stepfather. The stepfather's aberrating influence had only been fifith deepest. And yet, here I was discovering that his worldview had somehow dominated many things I was doing in and with my life. Admittedly, I had certainly made these into a more spiritual and creative or proactive version of what I believe my stepdad had ever conceived. I do believe I had allowed my HM to transform these into something nobler and better and more contributive to others. But my stepdad's worldview was still like lead weights that for years had been pulling down what the real I wanted to do. And if my stepdad --as the fifth heaviest set of lead weights in my life -- had had that big an effect on my current life, what about numbers one to four?

But even if I had never discovered those lead weights, I was still successfully manifesting my HM's "agenda" in many ways, before coming to this realization. So yes, I agree that negative conditioning slows us down, but it doesn't ever need to remain strong enough to stop us.

TraineeHuman

2nd April 2014, 07:49

I consider Joe's lucky to have four teachers -- whoops, I mean four young children. Young children (with the exception, I believe, of most orphans) live mostly in the spontaneity -- and hence the freedom -- of their HMs. If an infant feels like crying, it cries.

Then, they begin their schooling. To survive in the Western or modern world, they do need to learn that twelve times table and so on. But all that is a matter of learning to slowly become more machine-like, to gradually shut off the direct line of communication with their own consciousness -- or with "God" or the Universe, if you like. It's torturous, no less. The trouble is, even while we're young we forget how horrible early childhood and also adolescence was. Indeed, the great majority of Western people have what's called "childhood amnesia". They remember absolutely nothing, or virtually nothing, of what happened in their first four years of life. Let me strongly suggest that's solely because the pain of losing paradise at around age five is just too much for them, so they forget it totally and thereby shut off all the pain of that loss.

Then the dire process goes on and on, year after year. In high school it gets worse. The whole "education" process, particularly in high school and adolescence, is a shutting down of the spirit. A few decades ago and before that also, nearly all the most successful self-made entrepreneurs had dropped out of school at fourteen or earlier. Funny, that -- wouldn't you say? The whole education program is a shutting off of of the free flow of the intuition, an imprisonment of the intuition that slowly turns into its being left out to die. Unfortunately, our civilization doesn't know any other way. I don't see this as some kind of Illuminati or alien plot, at all. Rather, it's just the reality of Fallen beings coming to grips with a technological way of living.

The greatest pain is experienced in the first year or two of schooling, but the greatest deadening of the spirit (i.e. the HM's connection to us!) happens throughout adolescence. If there's any great spontaneity still left in a person, "higher" education will probably take care of that -- particularly in fields such as law, medicine, accounting, science, and so on.

I suggest this is precisely what Jesus/Yeshua/ whoever was referring to in the saying that you can't get (back) into heaven (that's back into full touch with your HM) unless you become like a little child again. And that the work and ingenuity involved in doing so seems almost rather like squeezing a camel through the eye of a needle (well, not quite: I understand there's a mistranslation in the usual versions of the Bible, and that one of the gates to Jerusalem was called The Eye of the Needle because it was narrow, but a camel could indeed be squeezed through it, just).

By early to mid adolescence, the spontaneity of the free flow of the intuition has been replaced, in nearly all cases, by the reactive flow of the ego, of the sentiments. By mid to late adolescence the adolescent starts to quite strongly rebel, at least inwardly. This is because once upon a time what you felt, as a small child, was your HM's promptings. Now, what you "feel" is basically what the individual, now as an island cut off from the rest of the universe and therefore the emotional, sentimental, one-eyed ego, feels instead. Unfortunately, this is always out of step with the flow of the universe. And, as I've said, it's a long process to unravel Ariadne's thread.

I appreciate this information may be obvious to some. But I consider it's worth a post to help clarify the issue of "listening to what you feel".

chocolate

2nd April 2014, 08:19

TH,
I am much better at present. It was a bit rough, but I have to say you were correct on many points.

I found Sevan Bomar and his point of view on the 'whole story' two days ago. Ever since the other day I am absorbing everything that he has uploaded online. I think you, and many who share your ideas and experiences, can appreciate his reality view.
He is a young fellow, I mean he is a bit younger even than me, but he has a lot to say. On occasion it seems even eerie, when I get to hear some of my thoughts coming out of some of his interviews.
One of his websites: The Resistance (http://www.resistance2010.com/) ( one needs to register in order to access everything, but if you can watch the video channels they will be enough information and registering is not necessary )
Livestream: The Resistance TV (http://www.livestream.com/innerstanding)
Youtube channel: Innerstanding (https://www.youtube.com/user/Innerstanding)

At present your thread, and his videos are few of the things ( together with coffee ) that can keep my 'frequency' high enough to be able to get across.

Joe Akulis

2nd April 2014, 13:38

FYI - The famous quote from the bible about the camel, yes it is a mistranslation. It's an example of what is called Semitic Hyperbole. Where you take something and overexaggerate it to an extreme in order to make a point. There are a few places where Jesus uses this technique, like when he talked about calling attention to the spec of dust in someone else's eye and ignoring the log in your own. A spec of dust magnified to an overexaggerated level could look like a log.

Now the quote about the camel, if you go back to the original language used was supposed to be translated as a "rope". If you look at what you would normally pass through the eye of a needle, it's a thread. And if you magnify a thread to an overexaggerated level, it could look like a rope. So it's easier to pass a rope through the eye of a needle... Makes more sense when it's put in the correct English. :-) Every year I tell our priest, "That camel has GOT to go." But every year it gets misread over and over. Heh heh.

chocolate

3rd April 2014, 09:28

Hi TraineeHuman.
My last stop is in your thread. I guess if someone comes after me and deletes my post it would probably mean I've gotten it correct to a good extend this time.

It dawns on me, from time to time when I allow myself to see through. You know, these rare moments when you let all your conditioning to not exist.

If you have followed that other thread you know I went through a few stony rivers. Well, it wasn't exactly mystical, it was more with a 'malicious' intent that whole situation. But since I do not subscribe under the idea that some people are 'bad' and some others are not, I will remain neutral in the situation.

I only hope what happened to me will not have any lasting effect.

It never ceases to amaze me what some people can do in order to obtain something, or someone. But as we both know there we are in our human bodies, but there we ALL are in spirit and formlessness, when it then becomes important what we have done and why.
From all of this experience I learned that the technology to 'influence' us is available. And the people to do it, also. It can render us immobile and it has power over our subtle bodies.
One day, I hope quite soon, I will know what to do in such situation.

But I also know that outside the body the laws are somewhat different, and no one has the power over anyone else, unless stated otherwise. In such state harming another is much different than while we are still physically walking around. I am saying all of this here, in the open and without using names, because I do see through people. Sometimes I just refuse to believe in what I see. This is not directed at you, quite the opposite. You are and ever will be the only person who ever helped me when it was vitally important. That is something I know.

I hope to meet everyone on the astral level, on a soul level, and have a chat with them. Because it may turn out the 'female' weakness is actually pretty darn strong.

I also hope nobody will do any harm on this thread and everyone who ever wrote in it.
If something happens, I will know about it.
I will also copy this and send it to you as a message.

I will always remain the person that I am, for better or worse, and I hope to continue on my way, although at times it is not easy.

:)

EDITED TO ADD, for all the 'guests' of the thread, and not only.

I will also know if anything 'else' happens to the forum as a whole, not just to the thread and TH.
Few things need to remain as they are, to the best of all of our abilities, or it's all going to go crumbling down, with everyone involved inside of it.

At this stage I know who is behind whom, how and why. I can distinguish between friends and foes, words and intentions alike.
( Without any judgement, just pure undiluted awareness and keeping an open road ahead )

TraineeHuman

5th April 2014, 02:43

Psychic interference or attack, chocolate? I've found it's possible to make oneself somewhat immune from the effects of anything of that sort. Not entirely, I do concede. But largely. Let me try to explain. And by the way, I'm truly sorry to hear that you currently feel so greatly affected by such attack or interference.

Being free of unhappiness is a relative term. It's a matter of still having some ups and downs -- well, more like ups and neutrals --, but they're much smaller. And you rebound much faster than "normal". And you do reach a point where -- going on my experience -- nothing could possibly crush you any more. You're then like a cork floating on water. It pops straight back up to the top, however hard someone or something may try to push it down. I suspect this is also Teka's (Highwhistler's) experience also, but probably even more so, maybe much more so, than my own. You just get steadier and steadier inside, and your feeling and knowing that there's ultimately no problem about life or the universe never gets shaken. That's precisely what the fully descended HM means, in practice. Freedom from unhappiness. It's an achievable reality -- though it takes a long journey to get there.

A month or so ago I worked at another location from where I normally work. A number of times in the first week I needed to carry out a certain task with another individual, to whom I know I was a complete stranger. He was Asian, probably south-east Asian. Because of his cultural background, he was naturally very able to be inwardly aware, to dwell in the inner much more than a "normal" Western person does. He also looked very tranquil outwardly, for the same reason. On the other hand, because of my Western culture I don't look so tranquil on the outside although I am like that on the inside. The task we were doing together was something we both undoubtedly regarded as the most unpleasant one that was part of our job. The third time we had begun on this task, he looked at me and said: "You know, I like to work with you. Every time I'm with you there's something about you that just makes me feel happy all the time. It's very strange." What I deduced from this was that when I was feeling OK but not wonderful -- which was how I felt when doing this task, and which was the closest I seem to get to feeling "down" --, to him that still felt "up", and he could feel what he considered happiness in the air. So it's all relative. (And I'm sure he isn't gay, either.)

The point is, freedom from unhappiness also means there are real limits to how much any kind of psychic attack, chocolate, or any kind of oppression, can get you -- well, maybe as long as you haven't been heavily drugged or tortured to the point of physical exhaustion or whatever. Because anything less just won't manage to worry you greatly. As I've said, freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose, psychologically -- but I mean that in a very positive sense, that you have no major baggage left to lose. You don't need dark chocolate any more then, chocolate -- though it doesn't hurt to still have some every day then if you really like to, particularly if it's sugar-free. And psychic attack or control by other beings no longer becomes something to fear. However they may try to mess with you, you'll still stay happy regardless. And the karma for them of throwing negativity at someone who gives back joy to them is bad, because it means their malice will all bounce back onto them, automatically.

People seize on certain things that do put them temporarily in touch with their HM, chocolate, and they suppose that that's where the HM lies -- instead of seeing clearly that it's inside themselves all along. It could be a beautiful piece of artwork, maybe their partner or kids, or beautiful natural places (which of course therefore haven't been gotten at by the educational system), it could be videos, or a book, and so on. In your case, chocolate, since you've mastered qi gong so much I expect it wouldn't be such a big leap for you to make the transition to freedom from unhappiness, in the HM all the time. I'll say more about this in my next post.

TraineeHuman

5th April 2014, 12:57

One real life story which may throw some light on what's involved in getting free from unhappiness is the following. I used to have a spiritual teacher called Barry Long. He was also Eckhart Tolle's teacher, and, for example, Barry was the sole inventor of such things as the exercise of feeling the aliveness. Barry had a child -- it was his partner's child, actually. Any time that child showed significant unhappiness or moodiness, from the age of six on, Barry would spend up to several hours with him, if that was necessary. Barry would patiently but uncompromisingly insist that he had to identify and face exactly what it was that was bringing some unhappiness into his life, and why. (Of course, I would suggest that maybe 50% of this would be the demands of the education system and other kinds of socialization.) It didn't even matter if it was past the young man's bedtime. The sun was not going to set, so to speak, on that young man's unhappiness. It had to be nipped in the bud.

Our inner being should be free, and joyful yet very calm. No great need to be or do anything. Nothing is too lowly for it, since in its state of peace it gently spreads at least hints of peace almost everywhere it goes.

In your case, chocolate, I would also suggest you try the exercise of feeling the aliveness. You can simply go to Search Thread at the top of the page and type
the aliveness
and press Enter.

Everyone needs to have their awareness watching out for whenever their HM wants to dial in, so to speak. In the past, after childhood and early adolescence the HM had kept trying to call in, but over time it came to the conclusion: "I kept trying to call in, but those guys [the ruling sub-personalities or personality] kept turning a deaf ear to me, so what's the point in trying? Or else they'll occasionally catch what I was sending but mistake me for some beautiful artwork or inspiring video or for being in love with some person, or whatever. But they never seem to see me, any more. I'm always there, just underneath the surface of all that. I'm plainer than the nose on their face -- which they also, from habit, pretend not to see."

chocolate

6th April 2014, 00:31

TraineeHuman,
What would the higher self say about someone who decides to relocate ( temporarily I hope ) in someone's body?
I mean, even with the best of intentions, if the feeling is obviously present and unpleasant; even if the recipient person is tired, but cannot fall to sleep, what then.
I guess this is completely rhetoric question at this stage.

And I guess when you have a chance may be I could use a hand here.
I need my star family here, now. And if they are those who are putting me under this ... test or improvement, or whatever, may be this just has to be titled as an unlawful entry.

Someone used someone else to create what I think was an energy entry to my body, and from there on it is ... whatever.
I am sorry in a way to spoil the thread. If this is inappropriate, please notify for me some of the mods to come and delete the post.
I will go back now and search for some information that you probably already wrote about this before my arrival here.

Thank you.

Edited to add:
I also requested several times to get unsubscribed, so if I don't say thank you, you should know I have said it in my mind.
The truth is, I don't think I will get the help in this way, to say it in such a way.
But I will figure it out at one point, I promise.

But again, thank you.
With my very warmest wishes to you ~ chocolate

TraineeHuman

6th April 2014, 02:17

What you're talking about, chocolate, is a Hitchhiker. Bill Ryan started a thread in I think December 2012 on this. I haven't read all of that thread, unfortunately. As I've said, most Avalonians won't have their awareness fine-tuned or developed highly enough to even consider it's possible or likely that there's at least one Hitchhiker living deep inside their "heart". Even though it's a fact that there is. Nothing could be more certain. But you're not special, chocolate, in the sense that this -- a Hitchhiker -- happens to everyone.

I did manage to remove a Hitchhiker in me. That happened not long after I became aware of his presence, and very aware of some unfortunate effects of his presence and influence. It sounds like you've done just that. I consider that very encouraging, because it seems to me that half the battle was simply becoming specifically aware of the Hitchhiker and of his destructive effects on my life.

So, that identification of the Hitchhiker, and the awareness that the Hitchhiker is specifically doing certain majorly destructive or limiting things to your life, is the first step. Because a Hitchhiker is there as a wolf in sheep's clothing, supposedly protecting you and giving you added skills, when in fact it's sabotaging your own (your HM's) true agenda.

The second step is to get very, very detached -- again, a very advanced skill -- and disengage from your Hitchhiker. It's like temporarily having the ruthlessness of a butcher. Your HM is every bit as detached and, wherever necessary, ruthless as that -- even though, paradoxically, it's also very caring. So, getting right into your HM and learning to let absolutely everything else go -- which I would tend to think of as an advanced meditation skill -- should increase a person's ability to be more fully in the detached side of their HM.

In my case, the Hitchhiker was the dead personality of a monk, so after the separation I had to avoid doing anything too monklike for some time. I even stopped meditating for a few months. That monk hasn't entirely gone away, but I believe I know how to keep him at arm's length from me.

I don't know if I can do this long distance, but I'll at least try to assist you in this way, and I'll send you an email in advance when I've picked the time to make an attempt.

powessy

6th April 2014, 05:28

Hello Chocolate
When I was younger around thirteen, an entity in the shape of a man appeared in my mind’s eye, he stood around twice the height of a typical man, had bluish skin with both dark blue and yellow blood veins, His name is Powessy. Powessy stood on this bridge arms stretched at shoulder height and spoke the words “spirits of evil and good enter into my soul and body walk with me down the path of limbo with good on my right and evil on my left walk with me into the light”, this has been my mantra ever since. Six months ago Powessy Reached up and grabbed onto my ankle then told me that we were now going to become one, he then ascended within me. This feeling to me was of excitement and curiosity as the fine feeling of static energy arouse throughout my being, I can now see him beneath my skin through my third eye.

Over the past six months, I have been reading many reports of this same type thing many are referring to them as walk-ins, I see it as connecting with my soul. Years ago I experienced a profound experience, I found myself in a astral projection where I was inches from the ground in a unknown location I could see three women walking down a sidewalk in a semi lit path between buildings. Only two of the women were talking the third girl was just looking down not involved in the conversation which seemed odd to me. I started to get curious and began to fly towards them, she then looked up at me and I stopped. I then noticed she had no mouth, this girl then pulled me towards her and her mouth started to form as the skin pulled back in dripping type imagery. She then put her hand out and screamed as she touched me, I awoke instantly, and I believe this was this girl’s soul. After this my astral projections were solo experiences, I think my HS decided I was not ready for these type experiences so I became a Builder and player in many beautiful arenas throughout the universe, but still always alone.

Recently over a month ago I had a new type of experience I was sitting on the couch next to my wife in a meditative position when all of a sudden I could hear static overriding all my senses. In the static I could make out the voices of people talking over a hand radio. I opened my eyes to find myself sitting on the corner of a twin sized bed maybe even queen, the static felt so well and the feeling was so relaxing. I then felt something trying to pick me up like a miniature ship or something. I could make out a dresser against the wall with a TV on it, and surrounding the base of the TV I could see small stuffed animals, the one that stands out the most is a small fuzzy blue elephant, then the experience broke. As I awoke I was left with the feeling of jack and the beanstalk, unsure where this thought came from. This was neither an obe nor an Astral Projection that I have experienced before but kind of a shared moment or something similar to a mind meld.

I have had thousands of obes and thousands of astral projections. TH and I disagree on the meaning and the purpose of astral projections. AP are only dreams, but on the same hand they can be shared dreams. Many APers Have symptoms of obe but are actually only dreams, these dreams carry tell tell marks of obe but then the experiencer walks into the next room and finds themselves in a totally new environment this is the clue you are not obeing. The new environment is perhaps another APers holographic projection our guides teaching you something new. The obe is behind the veil and is the actual arena of the dead. A near death experience (NDE) also has many elements to them but the one that is most relevant is when the person having this type experience comes into an operating room dead on arrival, and then brought back, they have a full account of the room and the things that happened that science and man cannot explain, these are my obes.

You talked of an astral attack this is actually quite imposable as a physical attack, the astral is for learning lessons, what is projected there are images projected by you and then by others, which can be malicious. AP isn’t very good for information gathering due to the dream inconsistencies and the limited number of people who experience AP, simple Ideas and fear can be installed through inception, but again this is not physical. Ap inception requires both persons to be sleeping at the same time and their sleep rem periods need to match, again very unlikely to be an astral attack.

If you are being attacked it is coming from the veil not the astral. The attack will start out like something landed on your head a fly or small insects which are actually small black orbs, souls moving throughout the veil or real obers skilled in this process. You will feel a numbing sensation start just above the eye brows and the sensation of great pressure building up in the frontal cortex moving upward towards the crown. The pain can last for minutes or hours as the invader tries to gather information and manipulate you through suggestion. The Veil is shrinking and only the hidden are left and I believe you are amongst them. You must decide if the arrival of this walk-in is here for you and is in your best interest. If you were attacked this is the reason for your souls ascension. The soul can block these attacks and prevent the intruder from invading your mind.

After submitting my previous post, I again after months of solitude (and not posting on this forum) received this type of attack again that very next day, so there is something to your claims, and this person was working alone but again the attack came on around midafternoon and lasted for around an hour, this soul will not be bothering you again. I do not expect anyone to understand this but unless you have felt this you have no idea what I am referring to. This also explains why your sleep cycle and theirs does not need to overlap. The attacker only needs to OBE and have your name or way of opening a door between you and them, the rest you are not even aware of if your soul has not ascended.

I cannot explain the sleeplessness but many of the walk-ins\hidden are also experiencing this, I sleep only 4 to 5 hours a night and awaken as if my adrenalin glands are working overtime but excitement not fight or flight, I do not understand this but whatever the reason I do not feel bad or indifferent from it.

When I first became a member of project Avalon I thought I was joining a group of people who would mainly comprise the so called hidden I was told about, but since that time I have come to the realization that there are not as many here as I had originally thought. Where there are so many who come together, there will always be those that have misplaced intentions wishing to do harm on others.

It is not my intentions to side rail this discussion, I am only concerned for someone I believe is amongst a hidden group of people and wish to help you get through this time of disparity. These are only my perceptions from the things I have been going through and due to my connection to the veil it is also possible I am being deceived, with that in mind why have they not attempted to harm me or the one’s I love. My diet has taken a 180, I feel more confident and I have more energy, patience and acceptance than ever before. I have always had very little faith in people which also creates trust issues but now these feeling are changing for the better, my emotions seem to be equalizing not that I am an emotional person in the first place but he is keeping me balanced through meditation and astral lessons.

If this was a hitchhiker I am experiencing I am simply going to adopt him, I am still looking for the bottom of that damn rabbit hole though and as long as there are not to many wrong turns I hope to see what’s there.

ADDED NOTE

Attacks can also come from those persons verse in the black arts through manipulation of the souls and the veil, this requires personal information to open the door between you and them even a user name can be enough for someone more talented. Guides usually serve to help many protected by them from suffering from this type of attack but it still happens. The thing one needs to remember is the door goes both ways, a piece of information that comes in handy when one wants to return the attack in kind.

chocolate

6th April 2014, 06:46

Thank you both, TH and powessy!
I am getting the message.
I probably did something I shouldn't have done, on so many levels, but that is I guess life, and people.

:)

I am not experienced in astral travel, yet.
But even if I were, I would never cause anybody any pain or discomfort, if that was the intention.

I am adding here: there are definitely people with advanced knowledge and quite some practice here, and I sure am not one of them. But that is like to try and outrun a 7 year old kid while you are lets say 17. Few things are just not comparable.

As the saying goes:
"if you don't want to kill the lion, that doesn't mean the lion wouldn't want to kill you",
especially considering all other details that distinguish you from that lion.

I'm tired right now, from a lot of surrounding details.

Cheers.
one ex-chocolate cat

PS. I appreciate your offers for help, but I am also afraid for anyone else getting hurt, that is why for now, leave it alone. TH, I guess it will be better if you also don't try to help me in a way. If i get to sleep a little these days, may be we'll meet there.

powessy, you are correct on many points.

I still love my guest, even if he laughs at me. :)

PS2.
Okay, we figured it out together.
Now I would humbly ask the dear spirit to go and have some sleep.
I will take a shower and do the same.
Seriously, we are in communication, no help necessary.
Obviously I am in school again. I hated school, probably that is why I am repeating it.
I have made the mistake to take it the other way around.
...

TraineeHuman

6th April 2014, 13:05

powessy

6th April 2014, 13:54

Hello Chocolate
I am, and have always been a loner when it comes to this side of me. I have attempted many times to explain these things I see to others, only to be met with strange looks and alienation. How can you tell someone something when they will never have this same experience, and this is where I have stood regarding this for many years? I don’t want to be more static to those that have already found peace through others help, for it was I who chose to remain silent in the first place. TH does a good job when it comes to assisting with others experiences do to his years and thirst for knowledge on this subject, with a calming I am unable to equal. Again I am sorry for my intrusion here TH, I will make my point and go, but I must add just a few more things here first.

TH, your description of the phase this is also my impression of it, I do not agree with their method for the mind will show you through astral projections what it is that you want to see. Sir dipswitch and William Buhlman also have tied themselves up in this type experience forcing something that should come natural.

Powessy has at no time showed any interest in taking the leads only to show me things through the astral and my dreams. I have had hundreds of entities touch me and try and stand within but to no avail for my HM and HS are very strong. When one has the number of experience I have had you can feel fear or hate, you can see distraction and misguidance through their touch, and yes I am still fooled from time to time.

My reference as walk-in is not someone else’s soul it is your soul, I will attempt later to write on this matter in full but for now I must gather a few more pieces to my reasoning.

When my life long walk-in decided to come within I encountered a small problem a glitch of the mind you might say. My whole life I have lived recklessly but within a strict set of morals which I use as guides to make sure to remain on a solid path. As a teenager when the lion was the loudest I seemed to have lived quite close to these lines I had created and perhaps even crossed them from time to time but I always found my way back. During these times I would build strong rooms with walls within my mind to stuff these things away into, this allowed me the time needed to get back between the lines faster and gave me time to digest with reasoning rather than beating myself up and moving in the wrong direction. As Powessy entered he rambled through these rooms and tossed these memories in the air sorting and looking through them not in a critical manor but in a way that left me feeling vulnerable for the first time in my life. What will he think and how will he judge me was the only things on my mind. My ego started to fight back, but I could see the good behind what Powessy was attempting to do so for several days I found ways to silence my ego and in the end we came to some agreements which have stood ever since. This room in my mind is now empty of structures, I have even planted a tree in the center to remind myself that I must face things in life and not bottle them up. I have cried more times in the past six months then I have in my entire life, this I believe is due to the fact that I am now sharing this reality with him and he can see me for all the things that I am, this is a sobering thought. Your walk-in is not here to judge you it is here to help you realize you are so much more.
Good luck to you chocolate in the times that lie ahead.

PS. ADDED To Clarify walk-in

TH, The way I am referring to the walk-in is in a way where the soul and the HS are fusing together to form something else, not where one is becoming dominant over the other.

chocolate

6th April 2014, 18:32

I don't believe powessy has my view of AP entirely correct. I consider such phenomena as AP to be activities conducted by the HM. And I do consider there's an important distinction between dreams and what the HM does. Even though I also do claim that many "dream recollections" are distorted and partial recollections of communications from the HM while one was asleep. Think of the "dream" part as the ego's distortion and attempted veiling. I also thought that all the supposed descriptions of AP by students of The Phase sounded to me like nothing more than (distorted) dreams, that didn't impress me, actually, because they seemed to somewhat lack "spirit" and "inspiration".

I don't understand how you're using the term "walk-in", chocolate. I've met and known some individuals who I know for a 100% fact were walk-ins. Also, although I had a strongly affectionate relationship with my mother, when she died she waited until 5 a.m. before exiting, in the hope that I would be asleep and so she could more easily do a walk-in into my body. She didn't succeed, because I intuitively stayed awake and got myself strongly energized with life-force, and successfully fought her off in several minutes -- also, I believe, through sheer power of intention and awareness. But the point is, in my experience a "walk-in" means that the walker-in takes over the physical body and the former owner of the body goes through physical death and departs for other places. I don't understand it to mean that two individuals now somehow share the one body. I guess, though, that you're saying you're the old owner and in this case you remained? I can't help wondering, then, if the "lion" is maybe your HM? So many famous people claimed they got all their creative inspiration from their "angel" (or their "daemon", which in those days meant "angel"), and that they were merely taking dictation. So many of the famous poets, artists, mystics, and so on.

~~~

TH, I used that allegory, because I am not a lion compared to the other person. On the other hand I might be underestimating my own power and point of view. I just decided to paint the picture with this expression. I haven't used walk-in. I think it was used by another to explain the situation in which I might be potentially.
The whole story seems as a constant test, and I gather that I need to rely only on my own judgement, which I usually do, sometimes getting a bit extreme perhaps.
So no, no walk-in, I think. More of a coach, to say it in this way. I am aware I am not all that experienced, so I know I have things to learn more than you, for example, or someone of your stance. But I am also not a pet to be trained, and unless I am treated with respect, I will take no orders, so to say.
At least I am aware that I am still on the human plane, to a great extend, and not completely under some technology, or other type of 'magic'.

I will perhaps have to test the one that tests me, just so that we are on the same ground. But I also know i love that person, and my judgement will always be a little off.
This could be the over soul taking part in the play, and can be just a play. Or can be a honest attempt to give and receive helping energy.
I am weirdly balanced that way.

I sometimes wonder if life is indeed a constant interplay. Which mostly puts me off a little, for I don't like games except for volleyball.

Only time, and my higher connection, which nobody else can and will sever ever, will tell.

I hope I managed to say everything with the greatest respect possible regardless of who stands where. We could be standing in physical form in reverse to our position on the spiritual/soul plane. But until we stop using one another we might get somewhere where it is worth being.

I am super tired, so I will leave the topic at peace.

~~~

TraineeHuman

7th April 2014, 15:07

Some more about what is the HM, in my understanding without necessarily any connection to chocolate's or anyone else's experiences. I would say I first became really intensely aware of my HM when (at sixteen) I considered I had encountered "God" in a very full-on way. At the time, for me "God" meant someone -- not something -- personal, and in no way impersonal. And yet, at the very same time that I had this profound encounter, I saw/knew very directly, as the most vivid and certain of all facts and of all experiences I had ever had, that somehow (in defiance of all logic and all evidence to the contrary) I actually was "God", and also that "God" either was the entire universe, or was at least quite inseparably interwoven and intertwined with the entire universe, and indeed with all there is. I hasten to add that I consider it's preferable for a person to discover their HM slowly, and therefore less spectacularly than this, so please don't feel intimidated or discouraged or whatever if you one day find your HM in a quite unspectacular way by comparison. Actually, the truth is I would probably envy you a little if you did.

For a few years after this realization/experience, I strongly preferred to emphasize the personal side of "God". Even though I now knew that I was "God" in my essence and that there was no barrier, somehow also "God" also lived outside my body. As such, "God", to me, was extremely intimate, and unbelievably close at hand, and the most loving and ideal personal friend.

At the same time, though, I noticed I was being watched in a quite clinical way non-stop, by a being from "on high". Every single thought and feeling and word and action was being thoroughly read and looked at. This was spooky to me, and sometimes felt very unsettling. My very deepest secrets were no secrets at all, to this watcher, who somehow had a hold on me. It was only three years later I realized that the one who had been watching had been me, the real me, all along. Whew!

At exactly the same time -- that's after those three years --, I developed the ability to go into what I would now call the Divine Mind or Source. This was at a deeper (higher) level of reality than the constant watcher. It was more blissful, more inviting, I felt. I did know that that watcher had a "code of conduct" that he expected me to live up to. And it was tough, and chilling. It involved living a life strictly of integrity and courage and total acceptance -- or that was how I saw it. And I saw myself as frequently failing to do things that met that tough standard, every day. Sometimes he (my HM) even "told" me somehow I needed to do X and avoid Y. (Retrospectively, it was always great advice. But back then I felt I had to express my free choice and so on.) When I didn't "obey", the contact would drop off for a while. But I soon clearly realized that what I call the Divine Mind was now just as easily accessible to me, and was better, superior -- with the one difficulty that it wasn't so great at anything practical or ordinary or routine. If only it had been! Under its influence I could become incredibly vague in any situation. Apart from that problem, though, the Divine Mind could bypass the constant watcher altogether, regardless of whether the watcher was also walking hand in hand with me at the time or not.

These are just some of my experiences and conclusions, from a period of a number of years all kind of telescoped into a summary in retrospect. But one very big development was that after almost ten years or so I started to find, then in subsequent years found more and more, that it was easier to emphasize the impersonal side of that which is higher than the personality. For instance, if you find yourself willing to throw away or discount "your" thoughts and "your" feelings, isn't what's left rather impersonal? The HM certainly has one foot in the personal, and one in the impersonal. In this way it manages to be both, I've found. A fascinating topic indeed, I believe. I mean, how can Source be everything and yet still specifically personal to you?

Of course, with expanded consciousness comes an expanded number of possible pathways and perspectives, to put it mildly. Everyone's is probably different. William James wrote a book called The Varieties of Religious Experience which illustrates this variety somewhat.

TraineeHuman

9th April 2014, 01:38

It can sound quite confusing or ridiculous to some people when I say that going into Stillness clarifies and exposes one's deepest identities. This may be even more confusing because the HM in itself is formless but it also "wears" a definite form, kind of like we wear clothes, and that makes it look like some other person. The purpose of that "suit" is to facilitate communication with aspects of ourselves that are in the lower worlds of the unconscious, the physical, the emotional, and the mental. Sometimes a person gets in touch with the HM's "suit", and then it will only be a short jump to the HM itself, in the formless worlds.

Anyone coming from a meditation practice will, I suppose, have eventually discovered through direct experience that at least some formless world exists. And maybe even that Stillness isn't passive, but it's intelligent and dynamic -- in some formless way.

chocolate

9th April 2014, 11:04

~~~

I have to say, it does feel quite intense, at times, and I agree with TH ( need I say why? ).
I don't want to spoil the aftertaste of TH's words, just want to share something I received today from one entirely different source
( indeed, pun intended ):

http://api.ning.com/files/8XZ9tNduvb1uFCH2iJxGkq1IQmgpQ3noG3AyfEWrwsWic8PmIsEzl0JLBt2sPIQklMztIOoEyzXAmSOHno2qrgr1kyc5PStF/kathykleindanmala9.jpg
https://www.danmala.com/samudra/

I'm sure this will assist, its a synchronistic thing

If every time we hear about the Universe's diverse strangeness we go in to fear. This cannot be seen any different then how you feel when the curtain is about to raise, and it is your first time performing in front of an audience, or a million other things that cause the same frequency. Experience is the Key. You must become firm, stable, weathered. Bend your mind without it breaking. It is clear that you return to these phases of new/fear, because you are a Seeker by nature, in times when everything was calm, perfect, Namaste, you knew there was another layer. Guess what, you'r headed in the right direction. Soon the term "All is Self" will have greater meaning to you and serve to calm the restless spirit within. Anything you fear you must eat, you are bigger then all of this, keep that in mind.

[...]

As a final note let me clarify in regards to this statement step by step:

"The last thing I want is to fear - especially the One who created all things. I have always wanted to believe this Being is pure love - not judgmental or egotistical (thus needing worship)"

This is a paradox, it just so happens that the "One" who created all things is you/Us we all did it together, in the event we all pull together that will be obvious and apparent you can even imagine it now because it was and is. Watch last show, there is always One missing from your inner world development until you accept it is you, until then there will be gods, aliens, demons, fraggles, and all sorts of things running around the mind unchecked. I had no choice but to eat them, hence the number 8 or ate. This is the step before you become a 9, then Whole O, or 0 again. What places you in fear is bitter medicine meaning you often times don't want to hear about nether world actions and behavior, such conversations are dense but they make great foundation/walk on them with no fear.

"But I am doubting it is possible for pure love to even exist. I really wonder why evil has a much stronger effect on everything and everyone than good has. "

Both exist to the dual mind, one is stronger and the other weaker based on the worlds magnification meaning what cycle its on. Imagine the universe as a giant lunar cycle, sometimes it waxes, sometimes it wanes so it is in itself caught in time. You are timeless so you do have the ability to exit stage left, with proper training and then jump back in when you wish as the world moves much slower while you are in dreamtime.

Surely you don't believe true love can actually be defined and that means our idea of love is fabricated while in division. The Vast Mind Vast Face Omniscience decided everything was the best expression of love. It was all given to us, yet we refuse the bulk of it.

The great thing is We are with you and there are lots of people here that will assist, arriving on all sides to comfort you in your process, they are the true companions no matter how long it takes since time is not a factor for the Soul Force.

P.S. There is no Souls only Soul as the word indicates. Together!"
J. E. B. III ( James Evans Bomar III, or Sevan Bomar )

~~~

TraineeHuman

9th April 2014, 14:03

powessy

10th April 2014, 02:34

Hello TH

I would like to tell some bits of my own personal experience regarding “all hell breaks loose” perhaps to better create an overall image of where I have come from and where I think things are heading.
First of all my mind has formed some ridged lines in the sand from years of conditioning it to things I have seen and perceived regarding, religion, morals, emotions and my other experiences that lie beyond this reality. I am an atheist have been and will always be. I follow strict morals formed through truths I have found within myself these attributes are non-challengeable and backed by a life time of reasoning. Though emotions are not my strong point, I test all things said analytically seeking how they were said prior to acting upon them this process insures how I will act upon these stimuli. As for my other experiences I have had them for as long as I can remember. The reason I am telling of these things is because if it weren’t for my firmness in life, I feel the trip would have been a hundred times harder.

I am unsure what trip this person is trying to take, but I do know one must insure they are prepared to let go of everything they thought they were and surrender your deepest darkest thoughts to move forward. Your soul will not judge you, but it does want you to let go of the things that hold you back from being all you can be. When I realized Powessy’s ascension within me I was unprepared to have all my thoughts gone through, this has caused me to rethink everything about my life and how he might view them, and whether or not he will agree with my sand drawn lines. I was so wrapped up in creating excuses and trying to evade these thoughts, I started to fall off the balance beam I have walked upon my whole life. The thing I came to realize is that he is not here to judge me but to help me remove all the things that are holding me back. So yea if hell is realizing I am not perfect, that I do have many flaws and sharing your life’s views with another(my soul) then I landed hard onto the bottom floor, and if heaven is letting go of those things and realizing the beauty within myself and others then I have ascended nearly to the top. I still find it hard to accept certain things, love others or silence my mind but he keeps removing walls, so who knows anything is possible in time.

The only other advice I can tell him is to be strong, find balance often and never compromise your morals. I find balance by imagining two lines moving upward, coming together at the top with a ball bouncing back and forth across an imaginary line in the center. When You start off the ball will bounce back and forth in the widest area always moving back and forth the goal is to get it to the top as you start to settle within, and finally reaching a point of stillness as the ball comes to rest in the peak. The sides represent the release of the things holding you back, and the center line represents your center of balance.

Good luck to you.

chocolate

10th April 2014, 07:50

~~~

Greetings everyone,

In the light of my very recent personal explorations, and looking back at them, I decided to stop here shortly not to give advice ( I sense it to be too early for me to do that ), but rather to share an observation. But before that I wanted to say that although TraineeHuman and Powessy seem to think they have some differences in their understanding of the process ( OBEs, terms and conditions that go together with some sort of a spiritual path and so on ), while reading their posts I saw that they have more overlapping areas in their understanding than anyone else I have noticed writing here. Or that is how it looks from where I stand right now.

I was having a conversation yesterday with a close friend, and we somehow touched on the same subject as presented in TH's post above. We were talking about Tarot Cards ( as interpretations / readings ) and 'life's journey', because my friend was constantly complaining about a lot of events 'not happening' in his life. The more we talked the more I realized that he is in fact very close to the real reason why he feels stagnant in life, which of course I would never say openly since it should be the person's choice to look at that area and divine his truths, but never putting enough of himself and some critical thought into why the situation looks the way it does currently.
The fact is, the more I tried to say what I think in a very polite and obscure way, but still, I tries, the more my friend kept pushing the conversation in one specific direction. And even when we reached a subject he was interested in, as the Tarot cars as reading life tools, I tried to give a practical advice and information that is already available on internet, so in case someone is indeed interested it is there ready to be accessed. And than came the realization that we all go about life in pretty much the same way.
We often lack the determination to explore in depth areas that appear to interest us and to be of importance at the same time.
And I am not saying this as if I want to judge anyone, I have had moments of exactly the same appearing ( still have them on occasion ) over and over again. That is what was happening to my friend. He is a lovely person, and he has been through a lot, but he does lack the necessary inquisitive mind and the ability to drop his seemingly sound understanding of what life is all about and how things go. I tried to help, and as a result I only hope he would take a few hints here and there.

I know it has been important for me to listen to my inner voice in the most difficult and also the most important moments of my life, but I have 'been made' that way, or I have developed myself in that way with time. And from this current point of view, the only thing I can say is that when something/someone/etc. does interest us or challenge us, we should also have the proper grounding and balance to go and explore it further, steadily, but not superficially.

To help the person asking the question of what to do 'when all hell breaks loose' and why he/she encounters the same over and over again, I would simply ask

If one decides to go for it, then why stop at the gates of hell, or at the seemingly difficult choice or situation without putting it to the test? Why not go further? After all, we know ( I hope most of us do ) that we don't die in the widely understood and promoted way -- in other words there is no death as such, only moments of what I would call supreme clarity -- why are we still afraid of taking each and every next step?
It seems to me we sometimes get discourage by what would look like 'hell'. But what if we just see the situation from a very narrow and limiter point of view. What if what appears as 'hell' is something different altogether?

I can share some more on this topic, but I would rather not do that just yet. I only decided to give some extra encouragement to someone who is obviously interested in exploration, but encountering some drawbacks.

And don't misunderstand me, I am definitely not as experienced in this as TH or Powessy, but as a female person decided I could add a bit of a different taste to the conversation.

~~~

TraineeHuman has a very interesting line in his signature, whenever that signature appears. It goes in pretty much this way:

'There is no teaching, only learning'.

I would say, that is the perfect answer and advice anyone could ever get. The question one could ask himself in times of difficulties would be why stop at the gates?

:)

~~~

TraineeHuman

11th April 2014, 14:09

A hell obviously isn't something you ever go looking for. It's something that turns up in your life when you're -- er -- ready. It's always a "guardian of the threshold", that you need to answer to before it will let you progress upwards to the next level of freedom or consciousness. The higher the level of spiritual unfoldment you decide you want to reach to, the more the "opposite pole" of the correspondingly deep level of hell suddenly rears its head before you.

At a certain stage this can be not just at your own individual level, and not just at someone else's individual level in your life, but also at the level of humanity as a whole -- or the archetypal levels Jung wrote about. If you want to go far enough, you'll have to bear such levels of suffering also, and learn to integrate them and dissolve them within yourself. For a brief time, this will often be a torturous experience, or certainly very painful, even if only for a brief period.

Here at PA everyone gets at least an indirect taste of the suffering of all humanity, just by reading about it and considering it. This can only make people a little stronger, a little more mature.

My experience has been that often a spiritual seeker begins by learning to master silence at least moderately well, and maybe after a few months of daily practice there has undeniably been a positive breakthrough. Then suddenly, the individual becomes his or her own worst enemy by doubting what was achieved. He or she suspects having misled her/himself with an enthusiasm that now looks like it was unfounded, just a kind of dream.

That individual really has become more aware. But greater awareness also means being able to see more of everything. That includes more of the psychological burdens that have been weighing one down. These don't go out of existence and -- pop! -- get replaced by peace and light. Rather, the more aware one gets, the greater one's ability gets not to be bothered by them. But one has to break one's attachment to one's ego. The ego complains bitterly about being disturbed by this disruption of its comfort zone.

powessy

12th April 2014, 02:32

When I was 18 years old I joined the military for the sole purpose to go to college, ~~by means of the Montgomery GI Bill. During my time in the military I started receiving many forms of OBES, But there was a time when they stuck out the most. I have always believed that the human mind is strong and if you get enough people thinking about the same thing then it might be possible to use this energy to your advantage. I started to meditate and conjure power from the world’s deities believing they were in control of the greatest amount of power granted to them through thought and prayer. During these months of meditation my OBES changed dramatically diving me into a realm of apparitions I thought did not exist. At first there were only four dark entities all of which would grab onto my extremities and forcefully pull me out of body, these entities were a dark mosaic of dots taking the shape of smaller sized human’s. One night I laid in meditation chanting my mantra over and over again knowing I was able to overpower the dark ones I was going to see what laid beyond them. As they pulled me from my body I jerked free and eyes wide open to find myself standing in my room but what I saw still stands as clear today as it did then. I saw many people standing in my room it seemed they were from all parts of the world then the crowd broke and something moved pushing its way through them as I looked up I saw what I believed to be the devil he was reddish in color and had the horns protruding from his head. Any way I turned tail and ran running into the door and waking to a painful shoulder and head.

Did I see the devil that night perhaps, but it was I who conjured him and the others that stood in that room. Did I stop trying to get out of body, no way! I just learned to go or do things that were not so intense, I also learned to stop calling others into my OBES this allowed me to learn more about me and my abilities before taking on things I was not prepared for. The thing that I learned the most is that taking small steps to reach your goal is more practical than trying to play on the last level, so slow down and do it in increments as you are ready for them.

I am going to pass on one thing that may help you but it could also hinder you if you are unprepared for it. If you believe you have a close connection to the veil you will be able to feel it and your guides. How do other’s communicate with their higher self or guides is it through meditation? I communicate through several different forms of physical contact and meditation. The EYE is my main method of contact, this requires relaxation and clearing of the mind. I relax my eye and then ask a question, the answer comes in the form of yes, no, I’m thinking and a series of dots. My guides tell me that any others having a closeness to the veil will also have this ability so you can try this but don’t be afraid if something does come answering. You must request a clear sign for yes and a clear sign for no for these directions change depending on the speaker. My guides are around me all the time and then the others come to check on me quite often they all seem to know me well, I only wish I could remember them. And just because you have found a new way to communicate with them you still have to filter out the lies from the truth for it is this process that teaches us to dig deeper into ourselves to find the answers we seek.

Even with all my many strange experiences within the astral and the veil that had occurred in my life up till six months ago, they all fail to compare with what I am experiencing now, but I intend to play this out in its entirety till the end with their assistance.

Just a few more words to maybe help soften the journey you are on.

25512

TraineeHuman

12th April 2014, 14:35

I believe the true underlying motivation behind a person's desire to experience, or master, astral travel is ultimately a desire or urge towards something considerably greater than that. I believe this urge is ultimately irresistible to us all, however buried and veiled it may be inside our hearts. I'm talking of the urge for the consciousness within us to become free and in harmony with all there is and with all other beings. Another way I would describe this is the urge to finally bring Heaven down to earth, completely. This, of course, is what I've been saying about going through all hells and out the other end of them, so that for you in the end they become transformed into paradises.

Bringing Heaven down, and fully into, Earth. It's not a matter of somehow performing a metaphorically surgical "operation" on all that is evil or negative or unawake within us. It's a matter of transforming our lives so that "small is beautiful" applies ultimately to everything we do -- because it's we who transform the everyday and the dull into something positive and proactive, where all problems are only challenges to our resourcefulness and creativity. Paradoxically, to get to that point we do need to go into the depths of consciousness, into uncharted territories we don't even recognise as familiar to us. Go deeply beyond the superficial, and keep going there, throughout your day. That's the true journey. Can we begin to see the beauty and unity and harmony which are actually there all the time, but only through our narrowness we fail to see them, and instead see chaos and conflict?

In my experience, there are two stages one needs to go through in the elimination of (emotional) suffering. Firstly, we need to replace the shrinking and contraction we do so habitually we don't even notice it, with its opposite. That opposite is to face and bear and ride through all the barbs and shocks of our life. To face everything and avoid nothing, but to do so with a calm smile inside our heart. It involves learning not to let anything throw us off. Kind of like wild bronco riding, in a way.

The second stage is where we become able, in the words of Rudyard Kipling: "to meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same". In other words, to treat all experiences as essentially the same, in that nothing can throw us off center any more. I don't care if you learn to do this by learning to love everything and find joy in everything and everyone, or if you learn to find a detachment and inner peace so strong that to you it's really all the same. And I don't expect or believe that anyone (or almost anyone) manages to do this fully or perfectly. But basically, the transformation is to taking this attitude most of the time, instead of the egoistic attitude, of dramatizing, of jumping to one extreme or another.

TraineeHuman

12th April 2014, 15:52

It may be worth quoting Kipling's poem "If" in full:

If—
BY RUDYARD KIPLING
(‘Brother Square-Toes’—Rewards and Fairies)

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

Source: A Choice of Kipling's Verse (1943)

powessy

12th April 2014, 16:54

An example of a astral message that I received this morning.

I hope my last post did not offend or scare anyone these things have been part of me my whole life but they were always in the back ground it is I who has decided to recognize them and bring them to the front of my human experience. I had only wished to share a time of youth and innocence in a quest to seek answers at that time in my life in attempts to explain the pain and suffering my life had held as a child and onward until that moment.

Today I awoke to an astral projected dream and new lesson that seems appropriate to the problems I am having I wish to share.

I found myself at this house where a man was testing me on my knowledge of things around me and my sense of the astral and the veil. There were younger children around they were all playing some games, watching tv and others just doing regular things children do screaming, playing and laughing. The man said I passed this written and verbal portion of the test but had one more thing he wanted me to do, a board puzzle. I sat down in front of this multi- tiered puzzle which had many boards all representing different tests he used. A woman entered the room she seems to be in her mid-forties and had a long connection to this man, she wanted advice from him but he was compelled to get me to finish his test so she went and sat in a sofa chair. I looked up at her and she just stared back agitated, this attitude seemed to be off putting to me but I felt compelled to begin, by this time I was unsure of the puzzle he had pointed to but grabbed the closest one to the vicinity that he had pointed.

As I grabbed the puzzle the lights started to dim and all I could soon see is a young boy sitting in front of the tv with the light it was emitting, The puzzle changed and they all started to fall towards the table top from where they were originally positioned, now all I could remember was some small aspects of the puzzles texture which I was feeling for in the dark trying to still put it together. Soon the lights started to come back on and as I looked down at the puzzle in my hand I soon realized the pieces had all changed and I wasn’t even holding any of the pieces I thought I had gained during the darkness.

The message I received from this is I have the power inside of me to figure out the puzzle but I still stand in the dark, if I wish to see the actual pieces I need to bring them into the light to see them for what they truly are, In Hinduism They call this MAYA. The other thing I see here that may be causing interference is all the distractions around me but this is a life one must endure when one has four children and a spouse , so the answers will come they just might not come as fast I hoped for.

25528 25697

TraineeHuman

15th April 2014, 08:03

For the benefit of any new or newish readers of this thread, within the next two weeks I'm going to provide a kind of summary or guide about some of the topics that have been covered in this thread, and where maybe some of the important posts on those are to be found.

It feels necessary, though, to clarify a few background things first. Traditionally, astral travel (which I would consider only one of many OB phenomena, and probably not the most important) was taught as one of various psychic skills in spiritual traditions or systems, usually somewhat as sidelines. These traditions or systems primarily taught -- or, at least, gave equal weight to -- meditation or self-observation or psychotherapy.

The longer I've deeply considered the topic, the more clear it seems to have become to me that the essence of all this is to do with releasing and becoming more aware of one's Higher Mind -- or Higher Self, Witness, Consciousness, Soul, or perhaps whatever other similar term you prefer. To even attempt to learn astral travel in any way other than in an integrated program where astral travel is only one of various byproducts of getting in touch with one's inner consciousness, does now seem to me to be absurd, I'm afraid. It's like the Kentucky Fried or Macdonalds approach -- and I think we all have some knowledge about how toxic the so-called food is that such merchants flog to the public.

In post #9, I mentioned how at any time at least 90% of the population aren't quite in their bodies anyway, but are actually floating in their energy body about six inches above where each corresponding part of their physical body is. I'm not sure everyone took the hint here. Until you can be aware with reasonable certainty of when and that you're fully grounded in your physical body, wouldn't it perhaps be foolish to even attempt to be aware of going out of your physical body, especially at will? Isn't that somehow rather obvious? Well, apparently not, to many writers of books and teachers of what look like they may be Kentucky Fried courses on the subject.

I guess it must be an unwritten rule that a discussion Forum is firstly about just discussing. Then secondarily about doing things in whatever way you decide seems best for you. I was a rather rare bird in that I discovered my HM and even Source virtually without any tutoring or reading. But afterwards I did unbelievably many exercises and therapies and classes and hands-on courses. That's why my summary guide will be centered around what exercises to do.

In addition, I've had direct, wordless interactions with many spiritual teachers. One of the most memorable was U.G. Krishnamurti (no relation to J. Krishnamurti), though I met him only once. That is, U.G. met with a group of eleven, that included myself, here in Sydney when he quietly visited for several weeks. At the beginning of the meeting with the group he immediately established himself as the ultimate nihilist. Virtually every question anyone asked him, he would respond by saying they were just revealing themselves to be a puppet of their social conditioning, or some such thing, and they therefore weren't asking a question with any depth to it. I eyeballed him without any evasion and telepathically asked him why he was so nasty, so negative. To my surprise, he responded. He went into a description of how when he was growing up, some adult in his town had pointed out to him that he "had the heart of a butcher" -- and he wasn't able to deny it, at all. Obviously, he considered he was still very much that way. Nonverbally, though, he conveyed more to me. By chance I had caught him out, just for a moment. I had glimpsed that his true underlying modus operandi was to play the devil's advocate to the nth degree, outrageously, all the time, yet insist that what he was saying, as devil's advocate, was what he sincerely believed. Not by a long chalk, in fact. I've seen a video clip on this Forum of U.G. on his deathbed. He passionately and very irritably proclaims that there's absolutely no survival of physical death. His secret,though, which I somehow accidentally penetrated, was that all the while he had his tongue harder in his cheek than anyone else ever has. What a radical teaching method! I have not the slightest doubt that he absolutely knew he (his higher consciousness) would survive his physical death magnificently. The question was, with how much awareness would his onlookers pass through their own transitions, when their time came? That was what he was actually concerned with, even to his last breath.

What a teacher. What a process that was for me. U.G. was in fact one of the most enlightened and liberated beings I've ever met. For reasons which would take too long to explain, almost any time you drop some major identities, one of two things happens. Either you get extremely energised for several days after. I've sometimes found I didn't need any sleep for several days at such times. The other thing that often happens is that you get hugely drained of energy, at an outward level. This is because your body needs to create new identities to match the new you. Several hours after I returned home after the group meeting with U.G., my body felt so lacking in physical energy I went to sleep in the early afternoon and slept for eighteen hours.

chocolate

15th April 2014, 19:26

A member has written to me asking what is the best thing to do when all hell breaks loose whenever one decides to "go for it". He says he has decided to do that many times, and always with the same result. I'd really like to invite anyone reading this to offer any possibly useful insight or anecdote from their own experience. And I'm impressed to hear that this member has "gone for it" many times.
[...]
This is such a huge topic, and there are so many different things to say in response. That's one reason I would love to hear others' accounts or ideas about what going through hell has meant for them -- from the positive view, of doing it successfully. And please don't feel you need to agree with me, at all.

Greetings!

I have been reading the last few posts TH has made recently, and I don't really want to disrupt the stream of thought there. But since I am cartching up on some of the earlier posts on the thread ( quite a few gems there! I have to say ), I decided to share a post that can be related to any situation that seems as if 'all hell has broken loose' on oneself:

[...]
I guess the point I am trying to make is that we often are locked into the thinking of our parents and friends and cultures and this can be a great deterrent in the discovery of the beauty which is present in us all. It often takes great commitment and will to lay down our past and seek a new beginning in our attitudes to those around us. It becomes a kind of death of the ego, and can be preceded by pain and turmoil in our minds when we need to come to terms with possibly losing friends or members of the family, or our whole old identity, for the sake of truth and love in our lives.

This is what happened to me and I found myself in great inner conflict and my 'dark night of the soul' lasted for quite a few months, until one day I just woke up, and it was not long after that that I experienced my crown chakra opening...this experience was so overwhelming that it took me weeks to settle down. Since that day, 40 years ago, my life has been dedicated to serving others and my Soul/HS has been in my life daily and constantly...it is a feeling of great humility and joy...everything around you and everyone you meet and are with becomes a picture of the love that we are surrounded in...truly breathtaking at times...just what are we waiting for?...when all it takes is to remove the mask which has been hiding our true natures all this time...the dear old ego.

I went through a similar thing at a similar age, Ray. Not because of racism, which wasn't such a big public issue at that time where I was living. But I felt similarly compelled to totally reject the kind of society I was living in. Little did I realize that most of what I considered "me" came totally from that society, so I was cancelling the old "me".

And yes, experiencing union with Source certainly left a feeling of great empowerment. When you're so hugely empowered inside, it's unthinkable not to want to make helping and contributing to humanity be the center of your life, one way or another.

As time went by, I would find myself repeating something that resembled that journey, but in miniature. Mostly it came down to finding more and more different ways to put myself (the ego, that is) out of my (its) comfort zone. For more than five years, for instance, I survived through cold selling, mostly in my own business. That did wonders for getting rid of a considerable amount of shyness.

When you first take the plunge into the discomfort zone, it feels like all hell has broken loose and is targeting you, and that everything you do is wrong and stupid and mostly fails. But most of that is the ego working on your subconscious, "arguing" that you need to give up this foolishness. So you don't give up (unless it's genuinely sensible to do so), and all that part of the ego that was interested in those obstacles has to drop off, never to bother you again if you persist in going on.

It also helps to go into the discomfort zone to do things that are directly of service to others, because that seems to make it easier for the HS to get involved.

No matter if it's many years later, this process still goes on. "Life" continually throws one into new discomfort zones if one isn't going into them voluntarily anyway. I guess we could and do sometimes run away or pretend it isn't happening, but what's the point of that?
The quote was from post #559 on page 28 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=660250&viewfull=1#post660250) if anyone is interested to read on.

As a person who has been extremely shy to start with, working on a supervising arena for a while, and having to feel responsible for project's outcomes, people and situations, I've managed to accomplish something similar to what TH was describing as overcoming 'shyness'.
As it has been stated before me, being in service to others ( even if one doesn't necessarily see it in this way while at it ), and when done full-heartedly, does create a safe space for dealing with negativity, doubts, insecurity, etc. I have even thought back on some moments feeling incredulous as to what kind of person has been acting in my role. This has come as a natural state for me, feeling responsible, of feeling 'the love' for some cause and people involved, but I can attest it does create some amazing -- at a more close examination -- results. But it has it drawbacks too -- it can become addictive, as a state of 'mind', or 'being', as any other 'state' that creates with itself the sense of feeling some sort of a 'pleasure'.

TraineeHuman

17th April 2014, 11:14

In post #10 I described an exercise for easy astral/mental traveling to view one of one's past lifetimes -- or I thought it was an easy exercise. I was certainly surprised by readers' lack of much success with it. After all, almost each time I had done the exercise (starting from 36 years ago), I had seen a type of short movie showing several very brief detailed scenes out of what seemed to be a past lifetime, a number of them having occurred definitely not on this planet. Unusually, in my case I happen to believe this is my first incarnation on this planet. So I believe that a number of the lifetimes I saw, at least on this planet, were "imprints" I had adopted. That is, they were actually past lifetime memories belonging to others, but I'd evidently "borrowed" them as if they were my own, to help me understand life on this strange mixed-up planet better. One such borrowed lifetime memory was, believe it or not, that of the Roman general Pompey, and I'll describe a few details of that further below.

As I say, I was surprised when I kept hearing that Forum members who tried this exercise didn't experience "movies" of some of their own past lifetimes at all. Scarcely even glimpses. It then eventually dawned on me that when I first did this exercise I was already an experienced meditator and that therefore my HM, being always prominently with me, could easily do such "tricks", it seemed.

There are a number of reasons why I believe things work that way. One of these is as follows. The exercise actually requires one to do a certain form of remote viewing. But it's a personal form of remote viewing. And successful remote viewing -- even when confined to viewing one's own past (lives') memories -- requires an extraordinary degree of control over precisely what one allows oneself to view. It's not a matter of experiencing a vague blur, but of capturing sophisticated details. And meditation strongly develops one's control or mastery of oneself -- and hence of all one's memories, even including those from past lifetimes or imprints. Meditation doesn't on its own further your mastery of the world so much, though it provides some of the tools for that. But your own memories rather than the entire physical world -- it does, or can, on its own help you master that much.

To me it's sad that this particular exercise has proved so difficult to various members. All my experience has been that very deep and full self-knowledge is one of the biggest keys to anything wothwhile ("spiritually"). It's something I believe everyone should make a major lifelong project of theirs. And the exercise from post #10 is a great way to know your self better in a very efficient way. Seeing what you were like, what kinds of major decisions you made, under quite different circumstances -- those of one after another past lifetime of yours -- is such a great way to get accurate insights into who you really are, what you are really like. Two of the most talented clairvoyants I have known both independently accused me of trying to somehow live many different lifetimes all crammed into one lifetime, my present one. They seemed to think this was a mistake, a weakness. But I couldn't help thinking: "But isn't that partly what getting free of having to reincarnate physically is all about?" Such freedom is closely tied up with everything the HM is about. And to move into the presence and freedom of the HM you need to be become good at being Still, and therefore at being "nothing", in a sense. Why? Because the better you are at being "nothing", the more easily you can be everything, or anything. And to the best of my knowledge and memory, that's very closely related to the "well-roundedness" that seems to be the most essential quality in being free from having to physically reincarnate. For instance, the more easily you can "be" anyone, the more fully you know what it would be like to be in anyone else's shoes, and so you find it easy to be empathic or understanding.

Just for the sake of interest, here are some of the things I learnt, through this exercise, about Pompey as seen through his own eyes. He came from a family much richer and more aristocratic than Julius Caesar or virtually anyone else in Rome did. He was immensely independent by nature, and hence even though he had very much of the refinement and education of an aristocrat, he was also strongly a nonconformist at heart. He considered he would have won the Roman Civil War (because, it would seem, he was a superior tactician to Julius Caesar). The only thing that enabled Caesar's faction to win was Pompey's being betrayed by someone very close to him. That person, however, had felt uneasy about the implications of Pompey's nonconformist nature. In particular, Pompey was no diplomat, and he had openly told the entire Roman Senate that their opinion didn't count on a certain important issue, simply because Pompey didn't agree with them. No doubt, this would realistically have led to his prompt assassination anyway had he won, much as what happened with Julius. Pompey had a great vision to make Rome as glorious as Greece had been in the realm of the arts and philosophy and physics. He did manage to found the city of Pompeii as a bohemian paradise for artists and sculptors and writers. As we know, though, by the time the city was destroyed by larva flowing from Mt Vesuvius, the city intended to nurture great art had degenerated into a place of pornography. Actually, the first thing I noticed when I looked through Pompey's eyes was that he was quite colorblind by today's standards. A color such as orange was virtually indistinguishable from violet or purple, for instance, and almost indistinguishable from bright red. I later learnt that color awareness is indeed considered to be something that has only evolved strongly over the last thousand years or so.

chocolate

17th April 2014, 13:15

Hello TraineeHuman,

I reread post #10 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=585496&viewfull=1#post585496) to refresh my memory.
I had done one such exercise as part of a program done by Gerald O'Donnell -- The Complete Remote Viewing Training System -- long ago, before joining this forum. ( I have covered few versions of RV, but I prefer the one that doesn't involve OBEs ).

I did manage to feel as if I am flying at the time, but I will have to adjust the exercise so that it includes the parts that you have added.

I've never felt compelled to try and remember details from past lives, for no particular reason, or may be because of some specific reason. In much of the same way I wanted to be able to go Out of Body just so that I visit places and events that I find interesting -- present, past or future, but not as part of the goal to become 'enlightened' or to meet my 'Higher Self'. I guess I am at the level of a 7-years old ( I wrote first 5 but than I realized that those kids may be still remembering past lives, so I changed the number slightly ).
:)

Recently I was almost forced to 'remember' some details of one of my past lives ( I have to 'believe' that is a 'true' past life ), and I still fail to see the point of the task. Even if it seems I have gone through some identical or similar situations, and even if it seems to explain health problems and emotional problems I have in this life time. Probably that is just me, failing to see the point.

But I will do the exercises you have included in post 10 and 461, and will report back.

chocolate

17th April 2014, 13:54

TraineeHuman

18th April 2014, 01:57

I've never felt compelled to try and remember details from past lives, for no particular reason, or may be because of some specific reason. In much of the same way I wanted to be able to go Out of Body just so that I visit places and events that I find interesting -- present, past or future, but not as part of the goal to become 'enlightened' or to meet my 'Higher Self'....
:)

Recently I was almost forced to 'remember' some details of one of my past lives ( I have to 'believe' that is a 'true' past life ), and I still fail to see the point of the task. Even if it seems I have gone through some identical or similar situations, and even if it seems to explain health problems and emotional problems I have in this life time. Probably that is just me, failing to see the point.

But I will do the exercises you have included in post 10 and 461, and will report back.

Everything we ever know is filtered through ourselves. It's very important to Know Thyself very well. Otherwise we won't appreciate what sort of filter we have and are.

It goes deeper than that, too. All our experience of "the universe/multiverse" is forever within our individual consciousness. So, to thoroughly know what's in our own consciousness turns out to be the same as knowing the entire universe/multiverse.

As far as I know and have experienced, being able to see what you were like and what your style of doing things was like in previous lifetimes does significantly help a person to know themselves better. I claim it also happens to be a fact that many of a person's deeper psychological issues have their origins and developments in past lifetimes. And again, it can be very helpful to know something about such details in healing such issues.

TraineeHuman

18th April 2014, 14:18

Concentration, or "focus", is a skill basic to achieving almost anything. In post #1294 (and various posts in February and March 2013) I mentioned it as one of the necessary skills one needs (unlocked in and developed by one's HM) to astral project successfully. It's also very closely connected to intention. Posts #241 to #251 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=619151&viewfull=1#post619151), for example, discuss some issues to do with intention.

Through concentration, we can come to achieve anything the mind can imagine. That includes "mind" in any higher sense of "Mind" also.

As mentioned in a post in February 2013, there is such a thing as too much concentration on one thing. Awareness requires a certain level of concentration, but it also requires opennes to the totally new and unexpected.

Exactly how much concentration to cultivate and how much open willingness you need in order to go wherever your positive consciousness takes you -- that has been a hot topic between various of my past spiritual teachers and myself. Some have chided me for being too willing to "veer off" into exploring some new approach or insight rather than sticking steadfastly with what I already know clearly works very well. Others have favored being so immersed in the flow of a deeper awareness that one may completely fail to remember the details of what one has seen while in such a state.

I suggest the answer -- if there is one -- may lie somewhere in between those two positions.

TraineeHuman

19th April 2014, 01:06

I do realize the need to find the middle path of an 'emotional balance' in most situations, but somehow I feel this life wouldn't have much adhesion to me if I were not able to feel my emotions, regardless if they were positive or negative ones.

Freedom from suffering doesn't mean that you in any way stop having feelings or become unable to have feelings. Though I guess it does mean you'll often -- more and more often -- freely opt for feeling bliss or joy rather than some form of misery. It sounds paradoxical, but bliss somehow contains everything that's in both pleasure and pain, plus more. Pleasure and pain are partial or limited or "baby" forms of bliss, once you understand their nature more fully. They're simply ways of feeling much less fully, of having much less passion. Enlightenment means enormous passion, for the rest of one's life.

Freedom from suffering also means not continually getting trapped in some negative emotion or other. For instance, if you get jealous then for that moment you become totally identified with jealousy. Then you are that jealousy and nothing more. That's being trapped, and temporarily blind and very narrow. The energy of potential jealousy can still be there but you can learn to watch it and work with it from a distance, and hopefully transform it into something constructive. I would claim that when you do, your awareness of it is much greater than if you let it come in and narrow you down while it takes you over. From a position of not identifying with it you can still go into its implications and even briefly feel them for a moment without getting sucked in. Kind of like watching a movie. I claim you're not missing out on anything, at all, except the suffering and imprisonment.

It also seems to be a fact that your body has a much less aware consciousness of its own. Your body will still largely feel the jealousy or fear or whatever it is anyway, but because you have "dual vision" you can watch that whole show. That whole show will still go on, but only in your body's consciousness now.

TraineeHuman

20th April 2014, 11:35

I do realize the need to find the middle path of an 'emotional balance' in most situations, but somehow I feel this life wouldn't have much adhesion to me if I were not able to feel my emotions, regardless if they were positive or negative ones. The buddhist way of detachment is probably very liberating, but I am not sure it would work for my personal journey.

"Buddhist"? Well, detachment and detached understanding are very central to every major spiritual tradition, as far as I know. In Christianity I would say it gets made a little confusing because it takes the form of the notion of "the holy". But still not so confused and unfortunately dumbed-down that the point gets entirely lost that it's our job to somehow "be holy". Actually, Advaita Vedanta is really all about the HM (called Atman, among other names) and the Divine Mind and/or Source (called Brahman, among other things). So I would have thought the "slant" I take on things might more accurately be described as "Vedantist" (or maybe "Zen") rather than "Buddhist". And by the way, it happens there are about ten quite different religions that come under the heading of "Buddhism," most of them emphasizing quite different things.

And anyway, unfortunately I'm not so familiar with "Buddhism" per se (except for Zen, which is really a form of Taoism) -- with several qualifications. As you may have noticed, I do strongly favor paying great attention to achieving freedom from unhappiness, or to coming closer and closer to that. What's the point of talking much about anything that lies beyond that, unless it's linked back in some way -- as I'd like to think I've tried to do throughout this thread -- to the basic aim of coming closer to freedom from unhappiness. After all, if you can learn to get freedom from your physical body in a controlled way, the act of doing so will have automatically required some inner progress towards the earlier-mentioned freedom. And I believe one of the "basics" of the Buddha's teachings was that one should look at and then overcome the five or so sources of (psychological) unhappiness or suffering at an individual level.

The other big qualification regarding my ignorance is that I'm quite familiar with a number of the videos and books of J. Krishnamurti. I consider there's good prima facie evidence that J.K. was a reincarnation of the Buddha. Part of this evidence comes from the last lecture/discussion series J.K. gave before his death. This included a dialogue with a Burmese monk from the University of Paris. That monk was widely regarded in the academic world as the foremost expert on what the Buddha actually taught. That monk also had the most wonderful and attractive smile. You can tell a lot about how far a person has "progressed" spiritually if you can see them smile uninhibitedly. Does the smile light up the whole room? Does it reveal great generosity? That monk asked J.K. a number of pointed questions, using different words than what Buddhists are presumably familiar with. To every answer J.K. gave, the monk had the same response:"That is precisely the same position as the Buddha would have taken." Perhaps I should mention that J.K. claimed he never read or studied Buddhist material his entire life.

In his lectures, J.K. was forever talking about what freedom from "thought" means. If that's Buddhism, then I'm familiar with that. See my description of how to practice one of the most common types of "watching the breath" meditation in post #283 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=628399&viewfull=1#post628399), and also the practice, fundamental to many if not most forms of meditation, of letting everything be exactly as it is (while you meditate), as discussed e.g. in post #1396 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=767722&viewfull=1#post767722) and in the link there. J.K. of course certainly didn't imply that we should discard discard critical analysis from our lives. Rather, he was saying that we need to also develop and continually exercise a higher type of "Mind", for lack of a better term, that goes far beyond what the ordinary mind can do. Such as learning to get reasonably accurate knowledge through our intuition. J.K. considered that being kept limited to and within "thought" was the chief means by which human beings of today are kept dumbed down and limited and unaware of their true capabilities. It wasn't just a matter of particular kinds of conditioning or manipulation -- including microwave signals, no doubt, and whatever else.

J.K. pointed out that the tricky Western mind would always make a mess of solving humanity's problems. That mind generally fails to possess or understand true integrity, which is mainly found in the HM (or whatever we call the latter).

TraineeHuman

21st April 2014, 12:53

It's not the impossible dream. In post #114 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does=the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=606494&viewfull=1#post606494) the exercise of feeling the aliveness was introduced. There was some discussion of it, with frequent posts about between May 2013 and August 2013. Never mind the second stage of the exercise, as described in that post. for now, let's confine ourselves to stage one.

This simple and very easy exercise is basically freedom-from-unhappiness on training wheels. If you do it, you'll have direct experience of what freedom from unhappiness feels like.

The aim is to learn to do this exercise well -- so that you feel not only the OK-ness but the delight simply of being alive.

Then it's a matter of learning to feel the aliveness at times while you're immersed in everyday activities, of all kinds eventually. Once you learn how to fully feel the aliveness, you'll know just what freedom from unhappiness is. The challenge then becomes to learn to do it all the time.

How is this relevant to OB reality? Well, the Aliveness is part of the HM.

And please, folks, any time I again mention freedom from unhappiness, please don't assume it's something you can't have a direct if partial taste of quite easily -- if you just take the time to sit down quietly and experience it. That's not the impossible dream.

TraineeHuman

22nd April 2014, 03:00

In Zen, blindfolds are used to teach archery. Why? Obviously, because the aim must be to develop excellence in archery through developing a person totally. Also, I understand, to develop the ability to consciously surrender to the HM. The HM knows how to find the skill to hit that target, even when one is blindfolded. I consider that development of the skill to astral travel fluently ideally, and most safely, works in a similar way.

The surrender to the HM is an extremely lengthy process, with ups and downs. I guess, with extraordinary good luck, one can just one day come to the insight that learning to surrender to the HM is what everyone's life is really all about -- except that nearly everyone is taking the most major detours imaginable to resist this. Short of having that insight, though, the only smart way is as follows. The heart and the will have to turn. They have to commit to --well -- Stillness. So also does the mind, and for this a discussion Forum or other access to knowledge is helpful, and needed. There also needs to be change in one's actions. They should automatically become more proactive, more constructive -- though at the start one can also deliberately aim to work to make them more that way. One's actions need to provide proof of one's greater understanding; otherwise the understanding needs more perfecting, whatever that may involve practically. One's self-reflection needs to turn also. May I emphasize here the importance of self-honesty. Please see post #1234 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=740055&viewfull=1#post740055) for more details about that. Another turning needs to be into surrendering more to your intuition. Post #959 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=688531&viewfull=1#post688531) expands on that.

The total person needs to surrender, eventually. It's quite OK to begin with just one area, but as you progress it becomes necessary to combine all of them in surrender to the Stillness. That surrender is the main power that unlocks the HM.

But anyone new to spirituality probably should proceed slowly, gradually, because otherwise they can get "burnt". This is the great game of life, folks, and you need to build up your fitness gradually at first before you play in the pro league.

Surrender means you keep giving your free assent for the Force that is the HM to take over more and more of your life -- and yet, what that releases is more and more of the true you. It's a gradual rebirth. And the HM doesn't shirk from continually throwing up tough lessons in your face, if you can see what's truly happening in your life. The challenge is to stay in the inner yet live fully in the outer world. A matter of not letting yourself come from any place except within -- in any action, thought or feeling. Now that's the real meaning of being centered. Easy? Hell, no. But it's what we need to learn to do, more and more fully. And you only learn through making quite a few mistakes.

And yet, surrender is incredibly light, and subtle. There was a famous novel made into a movie about 30 years ago called The Unbearable Lightness of Being. It was about certain individuals getting free of living under the Soviet system. But for some of them, where they were at, that freedom seemed unbearable. Freedom is a gradual process. but it does absolutely require more and more surrender.

TraineeHuman

23rd April 2014, 04:36

The easiest OB exercise to do that I know of is described in post #24 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=586384&viewfull=1#post586384). This is an exercise in mental travel and beyond, rather than in astral travel. In all my experience, mental travel is much more fun. This is also an exercise in "listening" directly to your HM -- often for about two seconds initially, but preferably for ten seconds initially, or as long as you can keep your ordinary thinking mind's interference basically switched off.
I don't understand why more readers of this thread didn't learn to thoroughly practice and somewhat master this exercise, rather than complaining quite so much about how they supposedly couldn't experience anything OB. For some reason, some seemed to assume that superficial techniques such as those of The Phase or Buhlmann or whatever were the real deal, when this wasn't, in their eyes. All I can say is, that's not reality at all, not the truth. It's the reverse of the real truth, for most -- as many have attested with their words of disappointment.

Consider, if you will, what happens when you do this exercise. You are actually in a world made of pure symbols or movies or pictures, usually for two seconds initially, but then at least ten seconds once you genuinely get the hang of it. Never mind whether you have some kind of mental "body" at the time. What's important is that you're actually there in that nonphysical world, seeing the symbols or pictures directly. Not only that, but you're actually receiving what your HM wants to "tell you" in answer to the question you're asking.

I've sometimes spent considerable time mental traveling through various worlds made of nothing but symbols, or nothing but pictures, or both, among other things. This exercise teaches you how, if you keep doing it.

This exercise has also been discussed in another thread such as at this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?38661-The-journey-to-discovering-my-true-origins&p=789354&viewfull=1#post789354). I'll continue with more about the implications and applications in my next post.

TraineeHuman

24th April 2014, 06:57

We "jump" directly into the upper mental by doing the exercise in post #24. You may wonder how this is possible? How to bypass alll the astral levels that might be described as lying between the physical and the mental? The answer is that there is ultimately the one, same reality present at every level -- for someone who has the "eyes to see" that deeply. It's just that in the physical world what we use to "read" what that reality is telling us is our physical senses. In the upper mental we "read" roughly the same message, but what we use is symbols or pictures. I believe the exercise from post #24 is something everyone is well-advised to practice regularly. That way, when they die then for one thing they'll simply be able to switch to using a different "language" than that of the physical senses to "read" the universal messages. This is something crucially important, as I'll explain further below. All the other dimensions and worlds are right here, going on right now -- if we can learn to tune in.

Another thing worth mentioning about this exercise (before I get to the crucially important info) is as follows. It's easy through this exercise to slowly learn to "listen" to your own HM, but it's a little harder to use it to "hear" another person's HM. In post #974 I did suggest you could work with a friend and each of you could tune in to the other's HM to find answers to questions that were important to the partner. I believe that's a good exercise. However, I also believe that probably over 90% of the individuals who charge money for clairvoyant readings don't do what's essentially this exercise (as described in post #974) accurately enough. The trouble is, it's somewhat easier to get yourself calm and grounded in relation to your own ego because you do after all know yourself better than you know anyone else. Your answer regarding another's question may be inaccurate because you may not be as familiar with the other's baggage, and therefore as able to cope with it, as you are with your own.

Similarly, people who fancy themselves as channelers no doubt believe they can apply this skill to give accurate readings with regard to the future of all humanity, or the planet as a whole. But I suspect they don't realize they would probably have to be able to handle the burden of all the sorrows of humanity before their "readings" will begin to be accurate.

I believe you all need to work at the exercise from post #24 because we were all meant to be continually in touch with the true us. This will also make the transition into physical death into something almost seamless -- whereas for the unaware individual there's the shock that at physical death "all the lights go out" temporarily. Not only that, but at death such an individual does go into a type of deep sleep.

The physical body is a very special place. It's the only place where all the higher planes, in fact all the other planes or dimensions, meet. We're actually in all of those all the time -- if only we can become conscious of this fact. The exercise in post #24 is the first step to achieving such awareness. Even if you or I may not have perfected the art of always, always staying conscious of the upper mental while we're physically awake. So, through this exercise we're learning to be conscious of an important realm we all go to every night, perhaps unconsciously, during sleep. In this way we begin to break down the difference between "I'm physically asleep" and "I'm physically awake" -- and even between "I'm physically alive" and "I'm (physically) dead"! And that's what the great game is all about us doing, in the end.

And by the way, we really desperately need this exercise because we need to have a way to "listen to" our HM after death. That's because after death the HM works to unify us into having at least a true individual (aware) consciousness. Otherwise, after death we probably don't have much developed in the way of extra-physical parts of ourselves. All we would then have would be, say, emotional and intellectual development which may even be very refined, but it's all based around life in the physical world. At physical death that all falls away, because it's no longer relevant to (nor makes sense in) your continued existence. So, I need to tell you you really can greatly benefit from having the "insurance" of developing yourself at a totally nonphysical level while you're still in the physical world. And the exercise in post #24 kind of hands it to you on a plate, folks. I could talk about how in the past I concentrated on developing myself at nonphysical levels. I somewhat neglected the physical one, by comparison. because the nonphysical worlds are real real real -- even the world of our dreams at night. That emphasis certainly made life in the physical tougher for me, for those decades. But today I have no regrets. As it says in the Bible, gather up for yourself treasures in heaven, treasures which can't be spoiled by moths or mould or rust. Even though I guess it does help to then find practical, physical applications of those treasures.

We weren't meant to fall into a semi-unconscious sleep when we die -- but unfortunately, most people do, initially and then for some time after death. They go into a "sleeping" state not unlike animal or vegetable life is in the physical. Like how a human fetus goes through a long animal stage prior to being born. I don't believe in fear-mongering. But let's face the facts regarding how greatly fallen human beings are these days. (Any experienced astral travelers out there: have you noticed all the dead humans who are sleeping?) Let's practice the exercise. Let's also practice some form of meditation as well, however nebulous or hazy it may seem at first. Better to break through the haziness now than to have to do it in the afterlife. AwakeInADream did the exercise in post #24. Wrongly at first, but he got there. He managed to be at least partly true to his avatar name. Unfortunately, though, I've heard from few others about their success at this. It's not rocket science.

TraineeHuman

25th April 2014, 04:53

The exercise in post #24 is a great training in several different things. One of these is learning that the HM -- or, if you like, some other OB part of yourself -- is conscious in a quite different kind of way than the "normal" consciousness of the ordinary waking Western mind. It's actually super-consciousness. But people tend to get stuck in the comfort zone that the only kind of consciousness is the "normal" one -- very cunning, very grasping, quite manipulative, very involved in getting itself attached to everything it experiences, and so on. All forms of super-consciousness, on the other hand, are very flowing, and continually gaining knowledge seemingly out of nowhere. They're not un-consciousness at all, but some people wrongly suppose they are. I recently came across an example of that wrong supposition in the sanitasradio.com show for April 22, which was titled "Hands On Healing", and featured an academic by the name of William Bengston. He has learnt to be a psychic healer and has studied a very competent psychic healer who was a close acquaintance. Unfortunately, Dr. Bengston doesn't realize that intention initially comes from the HM, and not the ordinary mind. Also, he makes it clear that for him, anything outside the ordinary mind is some form of unconsciousness -- except that he also recognizes that the body also has its own form of consciousness separate from our own "normal" consciousness.

I can hardly do better than quote post #1152 here:

We (most people) believe we are separate from the rest of existence.

In the end this is the only reason why we fail to appreciate that ultimately reality is so interconnected that not only are we interacting with every single other that there is, at some deep level, but every single other is also interacting with and penetrating us. The deeper truth is that there is a kind of inseparable unity.

Ultimately, the real, deepest “I”, which is Source, is just playing with limitation and division, in what’s really a kind of hide-and-seek, and hence with darkness and suffering. Can you see, though, that if you can stop being controlled by desire and non-acceptance, you’ll inevitably be dropping parts of that veil? You’ll be willing to allow whatever there is in the universe to interact with you more, and not in the sense of being a victim either.

Extending the same logic further, would you not then agree that what we consider to be “body” is limited; and what we consider to be “Mind” is also limited because it doesn’t have the flexibility to go outside “the box” of its ideas (in the higher sense of “ideas” – not so much concepts but intuitions or understandings); and what about what we consider as “life” itself: will that also not be too limited, perhaps?

But how do we, in a state of limitation, reach out beyond so that we can recover our natural state as unlimited Source? Apparently, first we need to explore knowing and not-knowing about what may lie beyond this limitation. In other words, we need Mind – the Higher Mind – as a kind of bridge through which we can at first glimpse and then break through to the inseparable interconnection with all beings, and with infinity.

The world, in truest reality, is born out of something that is beyond Mind.

And post #1190:

In my last post I talked about the omniscience of Source, or of someone who experiences being Source. This type of all-knowing, however, operates completely free of the kind of “knowing” we are used to. Normally, we tend to use ideas, or conclusions which are really just hypotheses, or accepted “knowledge” which is always incomplete – and all of it usually frozen into dead thoughts that are part of some matrix, but not of reality.

The way Source knows things is through never having any idea in advance, about anything – including itself. All-knowing always operates through utter not-knowing. It’s a kind of humility. It involves first giving up any pretense or belief or thinking that one knows anything, in advance. Everything becomes totally fresh every moment, as if both you and it are freshly born. And out of that complete but happy insecurity of not having a clue about anything – out of that very gateway is where all omniscience comes from. Source dares every moment to completely throw away any supposed knowledge it may have had, to be in the same moment forever surprised once again by direct knowing.

Cristian

25th April 2014, 08:57

@TraineeHuman - Chocolate says hi :P

from http://realitysandwich.com/218735/sufi-path-annihilation/

The following is excerpted from The Sufi Path of Annihilation, published by Inner Traditions, Bear and Co.

I was a young man traveling from Istanbul by bus with an acquaintance. It would be two hours before we were due to arrive at a small town at the northern part of the Bosporus. During this time I did all the talking. My companion, a middle-aged man who was dressed in an elegant, business-like way, listened. A few times the name of a mutual friend was mentioned. He had recently passed away and just before his death had asked this gentleman to introduce me to the person we were about to visit. My gentleman friend had promised to do so.

The person we were to meet was named Hasan L. Shushud. I knew nothing about him except that on a few occasions when I was fasting and trying to hold my breath intentionally for a minute or two (I was doing this out of desperation and curiosity), this mutual friend mentioned the name of a person, adding, “He would certainly like to meet you.” He said nothing more than that. I didn’t think he would take this so seriously, like a last will at the end of his life.

I was a young, arrogant snob, interested in metaphysics, literature, and philosophy. I knew a lot of people, but they were mostly artists, poets, and self-made philosophers whom I spent endless hours with, drinking wine and arguing new philosophical ideas of Europe or religious dogmas of the Middle East.

One of my acquaintances was a theater critic who told me that one day his brother would like to meet me. The brother turned out to be a bank executive who belonged to an entirely different world, but felt he had a mission to introduce me to his friend.

When we arrived at the house, which was very little and old and situated next to a small shrine with a white marble building, which made everything more interesting, a rather elderly, thin, white-haired man opened the door. He was well dressed and apparently waiting for us. With a faint smile he invited us in. Just before he closed the door, I noticed he looked up and down the street as if trying to see if anyone was watching us.

The house was meticulously clean, well decorated with old antique furniture, carpets, and curtains, which were drawn. On the small tables were valuable lamps, and there was a library packed full of old books.

He wanted me to sit next to him, almost within arm’s reach. I noticed his eyes, withdrawn, but very deep, dark, and powerful. In his oval-shaped face his eyebrows were bushy, the lips very narrow, and they carried a most beautiful, meaningful, intelligent smile. He spoke very softly and I noticed there were long pauses when he finished a sentence as if he was catching his breath. Later, I saw his face contract with a light spasm and a few drops of tears come after such a long, breathless period.

If nothing else had been spoken that day, I knew at least one thing: When one holds his breath, I knew what would happen at the end. But on him this was spontaneous. After a few words about our deceased friend, he said I could ask some questions.

If I had been somewhere else or someone else, I would have been glad to throw in many questions. But that day in that particular house, in front of this unusual man, I had a hard time finding any. Instead of asking questions, I started telling him about the books I had read, and mentioned several names that had influenced me. His look disappointed me, but I went on and on, telling all my frustrations. He was listening patiently, which made me aware of how trivial my talking was. I looked at the person who had brought me here and was now sitting silently, begging his help, wanting him to say something to save me. He just sat there silently.

Our host understood my situation. He reached out to my hand, looked in my eyes, and said, “Have you ever thought, there are more things than books and people can ever give you?” Then softly he added, “You can reach new perception beyond yourself.”

I asked, “How?”

He smiled with his eyes half-closed. “You’ll know when the time comes.”

“When?” I asked again.

“Just the way the days end and night comes, seasons change, trees and flowers blossom, and grass grows.” Then, he added with that half-shy smile, “gradually, naturally.” He then asked me, “I hear you do fasting and holding your breath. How did you start?”

I tried to summarize the events that had eventually led me into fasting. “All the talks, books, and schools haven’t changed me. It doesn’t matter if I think I exist, or I exist, then I think. I want more than that. I am tired of all this mental buffoonery.”

He corrected me, “Mental abstraction. You want bodily abstraction.”

I looked at his face with a big question mark.

He said, “Yes, it is possible. You were born with talent, which is passive. You have to work for it, which is active. All I can suggest and promise you is lots of hunger, breathlessness, and when the time comes, you will go through a hell of suffering. This road of Itlak is paved with fire, which burns you while you travel it.” He paused and looked at me with those half-closed eyes, then after another period of breathlessness said, “This is not what you know. This is the way of Annihilation, Extinction.”

That was the first time I had heard these words used that way. I was totally lost.

He understood my confusion. He reached to my hand again. “Son,” he said softly, “don’t be discouraged with all these big words. With patience, with persistence, and with the help of God, you’ll experience them all.”

I asked him again if there was anything I should read, just to get my Self familiarized with myself. He looked at me rather disappointedly. “Well,” he said, “I’ll send you a couple of pages if you leave your address.”

When we left, I had no idea what I was getting into.

I spoke very little with my companion. He was just happy to see his mission accomplished.

But I felt mine was just beginning.

A few days later, I received an envelope from Mr. Shushud. Inside were two typed pages of his writings, the book I had forgotten and left at his house, and a short note.

“I didn’t ask your permission, but I am answering some of the questions in this book. I hope you’ll read it. You can stop by some Sunday at my house.”

The book I had accidently left at his house was The Prophet by Khalil Gibran. In Hasan Shushud’s handwritten note, he had taken liberties with the text of this book by devising similar questions to those posed in The Prophet, and penning his own answers to those questions.

A Poet said,

Tell us about beauty.

And he answered.

Reach the Absence.

You won’t need all the beauty.

An old monk said,

Tell us about Religion.

He answered,

Reach the Source of Religion.

You’ll be exempt from Religion.

It is time, they said,

To question you about Death.

And he answered,

You are such

That Life and Death

Are your appearances.

A young woman asked,

Tell us about suffering.

And he answered

Nothing but suffering can purify us.

Somebody asked,

Tell us about our faults,

And he answered,

Your faults and virtues don’t count
for much.

A teacher asked,

Tell us about teaching.

And he answered,

It is not by teaching or learning.

It is by annihilation.

A young man asked,

Tell us of friendship.

He answered,

The one who really knows Himself

Is in love with Himself.

An astronomer asked,

Tell us about time, oh, saint.

And he answered,

If you don’t experience timelessness,

You don’t know time.

An elder of the town asked,

Tell us about good and bad.

And he answered,

Bad belongs to your existence.

Good is your nothingness.

One of the priests asked,

Tell us about prayer.

And he answered,

Prayers are evidence of weakness and incompleteness.

Have you forgotten your divine destiny?

Then, a visitor, who came to town once
in a while asked,

Tell us about pleasure.

And he answered,

The only pleasure of Earth

Is the detachment from Earth.

A young bride asked,

Tell us about marriage.

And he answered,

Marriage is the collision of two universes.

And the mother who held a babe in her
arms asked,

Tell us about babies.

And he answered,

Your children are nothing but your extensions.

A rich man asked,

Tell us about giving.

And he answered,

You cannot give anything,

Even if you try to give Earth and Heaven,

They are illusions.

And the grocer asked,

Tell us about food.

And he answered,

Fasting is the food of saints and prophets.

The two-page letter was not as easy to decipher. Although it was typed in Turkish, I had read it, then read it again, but still couldn’t understand it.

I was a university graduate and thought I was very literate, but this writing was full of old Turkish, which is full of old Arabic-Farsi terms, and the content was extremely abstract.

All I could understand was fasting and some kind of breathing were essential. Books and discussions were not. I didn’t understand much of anything about the suffering. Subconsciously, I didn’t want to get into it so much and I just left that part alone.

I showed the letter to some of my close friends. They didn’t understand it either. One asked me if he could show it to his uncle. “Maybe,” he said, “he could explain it to us.” His uncle was an expert in these kinds of matters.

A couple of days later, he brought Mr. Shushud’s letter back and told me his uncle was very much impressed and wondered how come the person who wrote this letter and who was obviously at a very, very high level of Sufism would send it to some novice like me.

I wondered that, too. I realized I should keep silent and save the letter and any further communications from Mr. Shushud.

I still wasn’t sure what it was all about. I was familiar with fasting because in this country, Turkey, one month of fasting is a common occurrence for most of the people. They just don’t eat or drink anything until sunset. Then they have everything they desire to eat or drink until they sleep. Even extending this type of fasting for a period longer than a month—if the person can tolerate it—is not an extraordinary concept. After several months, I had adjusted to this style of daily fasting without any hardship.

I didn’t know any special way of breathing. I used to breathe rather fast and deep for a period of half a minute, then hold my breath as long as I could, which was sometimes one and a half to two minutes.

What other requirements were needed for the way of Itlak? I could hardly wait for the following Sunday to ask Mr. Shushud.

When I arrived, his room was very crowded. There was hardly a place to sit. He was very kind, brought a chair, and again had me sit very close to him.

I was the youngest guest in the room. The others were middle-aged or older. There were a few women, but most were men. They seemed to know each other.

Again, he was answering questions rather than giving a formal speech or lecture. Some of the people were writing down his answers.

I kept quiet, though I didn’t understand most of the conversation. I also recorded some of his answers. (Thank God, I kept doing that for the rest of our meetings, which became historically important to me later.)

Mr. Shushud was very patient, extremely modest, and he went out of his way to make everyone feel most important and welcome.

When we were all ready to leave, I felt sorry that I hadn’t understood most of the conversation. I was extremely comfortable and happy there. Also, I couldn’t help but be amazed at all these hours of informal conversations with no earthly, moral advice, or any sign of sermon, formality, or hierarchy.

No requirements other than fasting and breathing were mentioned.

He quietly told me, just before I went out the door, “Son, I apologize that I couldn’t talk to you personally. Next time, instead of Sunday, you come on Saturday.”

I was so happy, I wanted to kiss his hand. Instead, he kissed mine.

On the bus, I sat next to one of the elderly guests. He was well over seventy. He asked me how long I had known Mr. Shushud. I told him I had known him for just about a week.

He looked in my eyes and said, “Do you know how lucky you are?”

I didn’t answer.

He continued, “I have known Mr. Shushud for the last forty years. We started almost together. I am now the same, except much older, but he has changed. I have probably read more books and listened to more talks. He did something else. I’m sorry I didn’t do the same.” Then he corrected himself, “I couldn’t do it.”

“But,” I said, “you are still interested. You will eventually.”

“No,” he answered, shaking his head. “It is too late. Maybe next time.”

I didn’t specifically ask him what he meant. Did he believe in reincarnation? What was the thing he would do differently if he had a second chance?

Somehow, I felt lucky to have met such a remarkable man as Mr. Shushud. I was twenty-six years old then. It was the beginning of a lifelong relationship.

TraineeHuman

25th April 2014, 10:05

That quote fits perfectly with what I have been saying about the exercise in post #24, Cristian. (I just hope members will practice that exercise conscientiously, and listen to the guidance from within themselves that it brings.)

The only small comments I might add to what's in your post would be, firstly, that in my experience "annihilation" has a very positive side indeed. Because nothingness turns out to be the same as everythingness. If you can be nothing, so also you can be everything.

Secondly, it's been my experience the suffering does come to an end eventually, or almost to an end.

Cristian

25th April 2014, 12:04

Christine

25th April 2014, 12:17

I think I might just hang out here for a while... breathing deeply in and exhaling slowly. :)

TraineeHuman

26th April 2014, 02:39

Cristian, in this thread I've seen posts by about twenty different people saying they can't astral travel but greatly wish and hope they will some day, plus about ten PMs saying much the same. Then there've been about a dozen or more posts where the poster did successfully astral travel once or twice but only by accident. All of these, and others, have in effect been saying: "Give me the instant, just-add-water method for going OB." Well, the exercise in post #24 does do that (in what I claim is definitely a full enough fashion), though for most it'll work for about two seconds initially, but for at least thirty seconds after some practice.

I don't see astral or mental travel as such a big deal. Once or twice a week, as soon as I close my eyes before going to sleep, I see a "movie" that isn't imagination but usually initially involves flying very quickly over some physical landscape, probably not always on this planet. I don't need to do anything to go OB because it just clicks on instantly. I believe I know how to always stay aware of such a journey for its full length, but usually I choose to tune out of it and just go to sleep, because most of the time for me it's not a big deal, and I trust my HM to go wherever it chooses while I sleep. I'm more interested in the formless worlds anyway, and beyond. Mostly I use astral or mental travel to obtain certain information. For me it's kind of like Wikipedia. Though I do also use it when I'm doing psychic healing, for instance.

On the other hand, I do consider it important for people to have some way of not going into deep sleep for a lengthy period after they die, as mentioned in post #1621. If a person can just learn to do the exercise from post #24 with some fluency -- which they'll do through practicing it regularly for an initial period --, then when they die they'll have fluency in a nonphysical "language" and moreover be experienced in communicating directly with their HM. And that will be enough to keep them awake in the afterlife and save them from having to go to one of the "hospitals in the sky" initially after they die -- even though they may feel pleasantly at ease in their sleep there. I happen to believe that's important.

There's a lot more to this issue too, as I believe anyone who has read most of the thread will appreciate. It's not just a matter of saving people from being in a deep sleep state after they die.

Sure, if a person is highly aware to a sufficient degree, I guess they don't need any particular kind of practice. But for example Teka (Highwhistler) says she still needs or wants three hours of meditation per day. I also certainly need to practice meditation every day, for example. Where are the people who genuinely don't need it? I'm not sure I've met any (apart from the greatest of the benevolent Gods), though I have met many individuals who were considered to be greatly enlightened beings. I remember Teka mentioning how meditation helps her stay more in touch with bliss. In my experience, regular experience of even the briefest moments of bliss even, say, no more than once a week, automatically seems to bring, among other things, a direct awareness of the reality of one's own immortality. I certainly need to practice meditation each day for that and also for considerably less highblown things. I can also see that meditation is only a boat that could eventually need to be set aside, but certainly not yet.

I do appreciate that eventually one starts experiencing certain things much of the time, or almost all the time, without doing some kind of set "exercise". It's a little like a composer doesn't need to practice scales and chords because that was what s/he already learnt to master at the beginning stages of learning musicianship. After that it becomes a matter of clicking into the feeling of it any time. That's true too, regarding one's contact with their HM. But meditation and bliss, and what lies beyond bliss? For me, and Teka, for example, it's still necessary to "practice" in a certain sense in addition to all the spontaneous experiences and feelings etc, though we're not beginners (except that hopefully we continue to always see everything fresh like a beginner).

On the other hand, authentic spirituality seriously requires surrender, which I believe many can (begin to) learn to do better if they have some training exercises to start with. If such individuals choose not to do them, or to not keep faithfully persisting with them on and on, that's probably just neurotic resistance. This is the whole idea of sadhana, surely.

Now that I reflect on it, I need to write an additional post regarding how and why I have presented "exercises" in this thread, and regarding just what it takes to get them to work -- always with the frustration that I can't really get anyone to do anything, and if they just read something on the internet they can ignore it if it doesn't seem to work for them instantly, or if it doesn't work after a few weeks of attempts.

animovado

26th April 2014, 09:56

Hey TH ,

How about not doing any exercises.

Or how about members coming up with their own exercises? Is that ok or a bit like reinventing the wheel ?

Are exercises really necesary in order for us to reach the truth that has been with us all the time?

Hi TH, hi Cristian,

this is a good idea and my proposal is:

Let's STOP exercising "to be here".

wegge

26th April 2014, 10:15

Hey trainee

Got a question regarding mental travelling exercise.
I´m familiar with closing my eyes and kinda watching a film on the "blackscreen" my view becomes with eyes closed.
When asking something of higher mind and waiting for 30seconds no thing appeared at this particular blackscreen. ( I know you said the feeling/form of the blackness is also a message)

But what is also happening sometimes also when I´m not particular practicing your suggested mehtod is, something is popping up but it seems it is 3steps (or whatever) behind this normal blackscreen. I also not really see it but get a word/concept and then see what it is but not in the blackscreen and not in some way I would definitley say it is "seeing".

kind regards

TraineeHuman

26th April 2014, 12:47

TraineeHuman

26th April 2014, 15:03

Hey TH ,

How about not doing any exercises.

Or how about members coming up with their own exercises? Is that ok or a bit like reinventing the wheel ?

Are exercises really necesary in order for us to reach the truth that has been with us all the time?

If you can come up with an exercise, or description, or story, or whatever you might care to call it, of your own that works to give at least a significantly big percentage of people a direct experience of the essence of astral travel or mental travel in seconds, or the essence of freedom from unhappiness in a matter of seconds, or anything else remotely like that, then please tell us the details, and I'll be the first to applaud hugely. I guess what I've been calling "exercises" are usually what might more accurately be described as "practices". By the way, those two exercises/practices (Feeling the Aliveness in you, and the exercise in post #24) are the products of great geniuses. I don't claim to have invented them. The Feeling the Aliveness exercise was invented by the late Barry Long, who developed it through mastering all of J. Krishnamurti's teachings, and taking them further, and also from incorporating much of the essence of Ramana Maharshi's teachings. It's like the very essence of both Barry's and Krishnamurti's and Ramana's teachings all combined. (Barry was also Eckhart Tolle's teacher.) So you consider you can -- or could -- ever possibly make up your own exercise/practice that can better that? Really?? Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Maybe you consider you're above and beyond all that? Or equal, anyway? Really??? I'd now like to share a few of my experiences and my past and present views regarding spiritual or self-evolutionary practices.

I've had probably more spiritual or psychological teachers than seemingly anyone else, with the possible exception of Drunvalo Melchizedek or whoever. Almost half my life has been taken up with working with them. I have no regrets, basically, in the end. Those teachers all taught certain practices which they favored. With quite a few of those teachers I often worked harder, or for longer hours regularly, than anyone else in the class/etc, at the practices they taught. There were some areas where I still continued to have really huge weaknesses nonetheless -- worse than many students, or at least much worse than some other students. Today I can track most of those weaknesses very specifically back to my recent ET origins. This includes such things as awkwardness at knowing when and how fully to bring in my "inner child" (that loves fun), for instance, because the human point of view is basically that that's central to good human communication. But whatever weaknesses I had, it was a matter of continually facing them head-on, as far as I possibly could, and never giving up, and working towards one day finding true balance, however distant from me it may have seemed in respect of those weaknesses.

The reason I persisted so much was because I knew for a fact that most laziness is pure ego. And that most of the "inability" to do a practice properly is usually due either to not working tirelessly at practicing it and understanding it and integrating it fully enough and intensely enough and long enough, or else it's due to one's own ego's backlash at the very idea that one would dare to evolve quite further than it. I also considered -- and still consider -- I knew that persistence, persistence, persistence is biggest the key to success in any field.

In the course of this thread, one thing that stood out for me was how around April to August 2013, one member, AwakeInADream, seemed to be attempting to master the exercises heart and soul, boots and all, without so much as one word or hint of excuse or complaint. His commitment level stood out from everyone else's so hugely, like a great tower or something. He seemed to have a much more conscientious and more mature attitude to just working hard and very long at the exercises. At stretching himself beyond what he believed he was capable of, and still not giving up, whatever hells might bar the way. I believe that's what it takes, folks. It was never about just the exercise, the practice. It always was and is about "you" -- and about changing who/what "you" are. I believe everyone could save themselves a huge amount of time and disappointment if they tried never blaming the exercise, or the practice. Rather, they might look in the mirror more carefully, I believe.

The practice from post #24, or some equivalent or parallel, is particularly important because it's all about equipping yourself with a very easy and direct way to "hear" what your HM has to communicate. If someone wants to be or become their own teacher, how can they even begin to do so unless they continually have some knowledge of who "they" truly are? And that's only possible if they can continually know and receive what their HM, the only true them, knows. Your HM is the wisest part of the real individual you. It's your most faithful guide. If you don't know it intimately, I'm sorry to say you then have not the slightest idea of who you really are, in many of the most important senses of that expression.

In addition to doing my best to present exercises/practices on the cutting edge of the sum total of the accumulated spiritual knowledge of humanity, I've also done my best to present exercises/practices in the safest possible way. By contrast, I've certainly come across the opposite of this. For instance, around 37 to 39 years ago I used to belong to the Rosicrucian Order AMORC. I later learnt that their lessons, which I mostly did by correspondence, were regarded as the fullest version of the Masonic degrees. I was involved for under three years, and got to about the twelfth degree. The whole of (I think, from memory) the ninth degree was about learning to astral travel, by the way. What really worried me instinctively was that many of the exercises seemed to involve looking at your own reflection in a mirror, through the light of a large candle. Intuitively I knew there was something highly irresponsible about doing so. I eventually inquired about this with some of the individuals in my city who were generally considered top experts at psychic subjects. Some of them told me this was a dangerous practice, and can send a person insane quite easily. In the years just after that, some of my most expert teachers volunteered the same information -- either because they were telepathic and they picked up the question in my mind, or through synchronicity. So, that's an example of the type of irresponsible exercise I've been at pains to avoid exposing readers to.

By the way, Cristian, since you've quoted someone talking about fasting, let me say I know that fasting is one of the quickest ways a person can go insane -- as I'm sure some professionals at psychiatric institutions can probably confirm for you. I suspect there may be some ways to make it much safer, but I haven't researched that topic, as yet.

Another possible misunderstanding may come from someone reading some of the experiences or insights or phenomena I have talked about in this thread. Many of these took me perhaps decades to reach, or at least to understand and realize. So let me make it clear: it's not a matter of doing any of the exercises/practices in this thread every day for a few weeks and expecting you'll experience maybe the same as what I experience, or Teka (Highwhistler) or whoever experiences. It's a lifelong career, not a pastime.

So, let me repeat. Please, if you can, do put your money where your mouth is. If you can come up with an exercise, or story, or idea, or whatever you might care to call it, of your own that works to give at least a significantly big percentage of people a direct experience of the essence of astral travel or mental travel in seconds, or the essence of freedom from unhappiness in a matter of seconds, or anything else remotely like either of these in any way, then please tell us the details, and I'll be the first to applaud, and also even to acknowledge that you must truly be a great genius. It's many thousands of times easier to criticize anything than it is to create something of genuine value.

Cristian

26th April 2014, 18:31

TH,

To quote Jake's thoughts I'm kind of an arrogant fool. Let's keep that in mind.

let me say I know that fasting is one of the quickest ways a person can go insane

Fasting is such a beautiful experience...

TraineeHuman

27th April 2014, 00:51

I'm kind of an arrogant fool. Let's keep that in mind.

Anyone who's willing to admit they're being a fool -- which we all often are but hide the fact from ourselves -- is either no fool or most likely will stop being so shortly.

I would say this is what dealing with one's shadow is all about -- admitting to one's weaknesses, which brings them up into the light of day. The Catholic practice of confessing your sins is great -- but for the fact that I would say the whole notion of "sin" is itself a great sin. I think it's a form of black magic on oneself -- putting a curse on oneself and not accepting or liking oneself.

TraineeHuman

28th April 2014, 13:10

my proposal is:

Let's STOP exercising "to be here".

Although, yes, everyone's physical body is here, after a certain point in childhood the great majority of people lose the ability to truly pay full attention to what is actually going on. This happens because the abstract mind develops and the child's major emotional traumas initially happen somewhere in the first nine years. In our Western society and culture, this leads us to losing the ability to pay full attention easily and naturally because, for example, the mind subconsciously keeps repeating all traumatic episodes over and over. The more an individual "grows" into adulthood, the more they narrow themselves into being trapped in neurotic identities and attached to their "own" personality. They can no longer "just be" because their personality considers that that's strictly its job.

Or, let me put it another way. For the great majority of adult members of the population today, particularly in Western countries, most of the time to "just be" actually means to be asleep -- without knowing one is asleep. I don't mean physically asleep, but simply not truly aware.

If an individual has reached just about the highest level of enlightenment, for them to be would be precisely the same thing as to be aware, in the sense of (higher) consciousness. But not for anyone else, except in early childhood.

animovado

28th April 2014, 20:17

TraineeHuman

29th April 2014, 13:48

After some time of Zen-Meditation in a group someone asked me, shortly before he left the gathering, if he has to meditate all the time now?
Back then I said "Yes", but I can't remember any explanation I gave him.

Today I would tell him that we can't "Do" a meditation, because meditation is what we really are.
It's more about how we live our life from day to day in every moment.
It's just happening.

If we choose to pay attention to "being here" at certain times during the day, might it build up a pattern we are attached to?

I like J. Krishnamurtis question "Why don't we start right at the destination?"

For now I stop being here...

In the past there've been several very long periods when I too would tell people I was living in a meditative state continually, animovado. And that I therefore didn't need to engage in any kind of (outer or inner) practice of meditation or awareness or whatever, any more. Although this probably doesn't apply to you, today I realize I was wrong. In light of my own experiences of this issue, I'd like to respectfully ask you just a few of the many, many questions I have, in case you care to respond.

(1) When you are what I take it you would describe as "just being" (I take it, consciously) all the time, who is being aware/conscious? Two possibilities would be as follows. Firstly, there's the individual embodied mind that got born in the physical world, yes? Secondly, there'd be some other, greater kind of organized Mind? Maybe this could even be some Intelligence that is aware of the entire universe, at all dimensions. Would I be right in assuming you'd say it's something along the latter lines that you are simply being in all the time? And that you would be fully and specifically aware of that cosmic Intelligence as being the true "you"? And would you be aware of that all the time?

(2) I was being brief in my earlier post. So, in that post I didn't mention the fact that (what I call) the personality itself already has a certain level of awareness. (You could substitute 'the ego" or "the body consciousness" for "the personality" in most of this too.) So I'd like to ask, if I may, how do you clearly distinguish your (higher/truer) awareness from that of your personality at all times? Or if you don't so distinguish, then have you totally transformed your personality into something Higher? In this thread I've talked a few times about how eventually the ego needs to be in some ways transformed, so your insights about this could be very valuable, and certainly interesting. Alternatively, do you have "the dual consciousness" at all times? That is my experience, and as far as I understand you would either have to have that constantly or else the very, very greatly transformed ego/personality.

There are many interesting side-issues here. For instance, it's impossible to have any knowledge or awareness of the contents of the self in any sense of that word (or of the Self, at whatever level, including "nothingness") without first having true knowledge or awareness of their container -- namely, the self (or the Self). Not only that, but all forms of authentic mysticism or true spirituality that I know of are almost entirely based on understanding the Divine and the entire universe; and on doing so almost solely by means of knowing one's true Self more and more fully.

(3) The exercise/practice of Feeling the Aliveness In You (which, by the way, is based on the most central core of J. Krishnamurti's teaching) isn't, essentially, an exercise in just being but rather in feeling or being aware of the great joy or delight or bliss of simply existing. Do you feel that bliss or delight at all times -- or am I misunderstanding what you're claiming? If I'm not misunderstanding, then I take it you're constantly and continually in touch with and aware of the indivisible oneness of things, or at least with the delightful feeling that pervades it always? And if so, do you constantly directly see everything else, other than the oneness, as just kind of surface waves or ripples on the oneness? If you have such experience/awareness to share, that would be very interesting to some members, and probably helpful.

TraineeHuman

30th April 2014, 13:08

While we sleep we ascend -- our central focus ascends --into higher and higher parts/levels of ourselves, level by level, one at a time. That's why we feel refreshed in non-physical ways after sleep. The more evolved the individual (for lack of a better term), the more likely they are to even spend a little time focused on being in union with Source itself on a given night. Generally we visit each and every one of the higher levels within ourselves that have been significantly activated and developed.

Actually, there is, so to speak, an "us", or a part of us, that goes on living 24/7 at each such higher level. People at PA sometimes love to speculate about alternate timelines. But what about all the "selves" of yours that actually do live continuously at these higher levels and you mostly don't have a clue what they have been experiencing or doing? These are all indeed parts of yourself. Many people achieve all sorts of wonderful or remarkable or influential or at least very different things in these other worlds, all sorts of interactions and relationships, often without ever consciously knowing about it -- except, perhaps until after their physical death, or after their permanent liberation from the physical world. You do lead many lives simultaneously. How can I explain that what we call dreams are actual happenings? They are one part of these secret forces behind the scenes that determine what happens in our physical lives.

So far, I've only mentioned one method of accessing details of our dreams, apart from OB travel. That method was keeping a dream diary by or in one's bed. I'd like to describe a different method, but it will take more background description first about what happens when we sleep and dream. So I'll give you that in my next post. (Pressed for time today.)

wegge

30th April 2014, 17:09

my dreams became more intense since I started meditation

TraineeHuman

1st May 2014, 14:23

my dreams became more intense since I started meditation

Interesting. The exercise I was about to suggest has two variants. One variant is to meditate before you go to sleep, and just before you're falling asleep, hold the intention that you'll wake up at some point while your consciousness is in some higher-dimensional world (or whatever you call it); and that you'll then consciously explore that higher world.

I expect most people will succeed at this exercise, if they have e.g. some experience in meditation. The only trouble is, most likely they'll then forget all about it because they'll fall asleep again straight after, and won't remember in the morning.

The other variant may be easier for many, but on the other hand it will probably require lengthy practice before people have any success with it. This variant goes as follows. At the moment you find yourself waking up in the morning, make sure you keep your physical body totally still, and also keep totally silent, inside and out. Don't turn your body even the tiniest bit, nor any limb or part of it. You also need to not-think at this time, that is, to keep the screen of your mind blank, in Stillness. The mind is definitely not what does any of the remembering. At this point what you do is the same as what was described as the exercise/practice described in post #24, with the exception that you don't ask your consciousness any question at the beginning of it. You just wait, in profound Stillness. Eventually an image will just appear -- but you can't force it or be impatient in any way. Where such an image comes from is like a whole separate universe, belonging to a whole separate "island" from the one you normally live in. The problem is that you don't initially have any bridge for connecting to that island. And you have to let it come and show itself, very slowly and gradually at first, in its own time. You can't hurry it in any way, nor try to grab it. You can't try to understand it in any way. These things kill it straight away. The understanding, the interpretation, will come later. I can't guarantee you won't have to wait for months, but that will be worth it. In the end you'll have broken through into an entire different universe as huge as the only one you probably know so far.

TraineeHuman

3rd May 2014, 03:33

Much that lies beyond the physical senses' capacity isn't an illusion or hallucination. In fact, to equate reality with being solely whatever the physical senses experience certainly is to indulge a hallucination. There is a huge amount of anecdotal evidence and direct experience, by OB experiencers and meditators, that there certainly are senses and other faculties and ways of knowing that are all quite different from the physical senses. These bring us into contact, then, with other realities, other worlds, other lives of parts of our selves. Not just at the astral (or magnetic) and mental (or electric) levels, but well beyond these (and hence beyond time) also.

When we sleep we do visit such other levels. As I've mentioned, the astral body or sheath and the mental body or sheath together make up our personality, but at death we need to shed them. I happen to know that in very rare cases some individuals can make their mental or astral body immortal, and therefore retain it forever. But they need to have activated the bliss level of their HM before they can do so -- in which case, paradoxically, they'll be able to not identify with that body/sheath even while they possess it. But the normal situation is that a person sheds them well before the next reincarnation. As I said, these personalities go on having their own lives, although once shed they no longer possess a soul or HM. This doesn't stop them from surviving on for centuries after our physical death. Clairvoyants see them everywhere. There are certain famous battlegrounds where (in the astral) the dead astral bodies that belonged to soldiers have continued to march in columns 24/7 for centuries, for example.

Studies show that we each night experience most of our self-healing, both at a physical level and at emotional and mental levels, while our physical brain slows down to its least active phase, known as delta waves. It's at this time that our focus rises to our highest inner level, certainly to that of full communication and union with our HM if not even higher. To quote the Bridhadaranyaka Upoanishad:

"He (or she) becomes a dream-self and passes beyond this world and its forms of death.... There are two planes on which this conscious being now exists: this plane, and that of the other worlds. But there is also a third state, which is the place of their joining, the state of dreaming."

Our sleep goes through a few cycles each night. The astral or mental pictures or symbols stage is the REM sleep stage. During that stage we engage in a type of psychodrama where we rehearse out some of the implications of the healings we have gained while we were in the most recent delta stage. The reason I have encouraged members to share their dream "movies" is that the contents of their dream will always reflect what their HM has just managed to change, or failed to successfully change, in them, or what the direction of change or attempted change is. Our HM is our most benevolent friend, but unfortunately it tells us the plain truth about ourselves straight, during the delta stage. Unfortunately, we rarely want to directly face the truth about ourselves directly, but if we face the contents of our dreams, that will be enough, provided we're correctly understanding roughly what the dream was really about.

You may of course be wondering why, if the HM is so brilliant and loving and self-empowered and just radiating positivity and Light everywhere, how it can be that the HM is evidently so nitpicking and apparently such a spoilsport. The only answer I can give is that it acts out of true love. Because of its love, it greatly wants you to be perfect.

At the end of one of the Shakespeare plays there's the line: "Our lives are of such stuff as dreams are made of." The point it's making, of course, is that in most of our dreams we face the very issues regarding our current life that our true self is currently most concerned with.

TraineeHuman

4th May 2014, 10:07

There are things which go beyond what language can express, or fully express, it seems. But we long to grow, and so we need to talk of these things as fully as possible. One of the strangest such things is that the very notion of self, even of capital S Self, is in some ways an inadequate conception. People sometimes jump to the conclusion that this amounts to some kind of self-extinction. But I have to insist that isn't the full truth either. Because the truth is, this doesn't go beyond the inner vs outer distinction, as far as I understand. Yes, there may be a kind of absolute calm inwardly. But what happens is that outwardly this inner Stillness takes the form of actions in the physical world, wonderful actions that are the products of love and truth and true virtue.

Here we have the paradox of being both Spirit and Matter -- and of having to totally reconcile these two. There is the absolute freedom of pure Spirit, which reaches beyond everything, even beyond itself. At the same time, we live in a world where Matter doesn't stop molding everything we engage ourselves in, incessantly demanding our respect. Basically, the Matter dominates our external experience, and Spirit dominates what is inner. (Although we may speak of some experiences as "out of body", the truth is they are so much inner they are "out of the physical".) We need to master the art of getting the outer and the inner to interpenetrate completely, in the long run.

The way I see it, we get far too engrossed in the "toys" that come with and from the world of Matter. One major such "toy" is that of desire, and all that goes with it. How does one even begin to get free of this? Surely, such freedom involves no longer always doing whatever you like. You can't have true mastery over intention, for example, unless you also have mastery over desire. But how can we even begin to learn to be willing to stop wanting everything to be done just how you desire, without "interference" from anyone or anything else?

My proposed solution is, in part, to offer some alternative "toys". These toys are what I have been calling "exercises". What I'm trying to suggest is that you really can learn to replace your addiction to "toys" such as desire with "toys" such as these.

wegge

4th May 2014, 19:39

TraineeHuman

5th May 2014, 07:00

Everything is made of Light and shines, in the world of the HM, and even more so at the levels above it. Not everyone "sees" it as Light. Some initially "see" it as an intelligent, soothing blackness. Some merely feel it as joy/peace/vastness/empty-fullness. But usually one can "see" that it is Light, as well as perhaps those other things also. Everything radiates Light from within itself there, and is a proactive field of blazing "energy". Everything.

To the people who say: "Don't go into the great Light when you die," I have to say: "All that's good and true and higher is pure Light. And it lives in a realm made out of nothing but pure Intelligence." The only lights you should avoid are dirty or dark (particularly grey or dark brown or dark red, and so on), and to some extent the multi-colored ones. Don't avoid the pure Light, whether you're dying or whether your physical body is still doing fine on this side. Drink in the pure Light as deeply as you can. It will energize you in every way, including physically if you're not dying. Of course, if you are dying, don't give away your feeling of great self-worth, self-acceptance, self-love, self-forgiveness, and your passion. And during physical death what happens is that many lesser or neurotic bits that you imagined were part of you simply drop off -- which is a blessing. You can't stop many of them from leaving at that point anyway.

Psychic healers work by accessing either the pure white Light -- which is the HM --, or the golden Light -- which is the Divine Mind. At least, these are among the various ways the HM and the DM appear to us. Psychic healers can sometimes learn to energize themselves so much with Light, their physical bodies may come to need very little sleep at nights, and yet remain very healthy. It's all about hobnobbing with the Light, with the world of pure Light.

Once we do find the Light (in the heavenly regions), though, everything will still continue to be unbalanced -- which we for some reason consider "normal" -- until such time as the Light enables us to truly see the Divinity of Matter. That imbalance is precisely what makes repeated reincarnation necessary, as long as we fail to reconcile with Matter truly. Light, but Matter also. Matter will have its revenge, as long as it's treated like "brute" matter. True spiritual maturity means turning the mud into something sacred. Anthropologists, historians, theologians, and so on would tell us that "primitive man" used to worship trees and rocks and so forth. The truth is, up to thirty thousand or so years ago, there certainly were realized humans who knew the secret -- of the true enlightenment. To them, the trees and the beautiful earth and so on were sacred because they knew that Matter was sacred, and not just the Light. Only a few knew this secret, which was however preserved in the earliest Vedas and Ch'an or Zen writings -- for those with the eyes to see. However, it was necessary for humanity to fall into ignorance, so that one day in the future all humanity will know this secret, of descension. For twenty thousand years or more it was necessary for that secret to be largely buried -- while humanity devolved into such things as religion and materialism. But that was so that humanity would ultimately learn from the depths of the ignorance it had plunged itself into. Through its own crazy logic, materialism ultimately points us back to a Western form of something like Tantra.

There is a certain process going on in every atom, every cell on this planet. The lower we devolve after having first ascended, the more we will eventually be able to fully embrace, to reveal, to manifest. The more extreme our sweep down has been, the more gigantic in its power will the sweep up be. The Earth was made ultimately for joy, not, ultimately, for sorrow. The kaleidoscope turns, and everything is changed, and will never be the same again.

That experience of the "in your face" nature of God as not being somewhere "out there" so much as everything there is, including all the annoying physical encumbrances and limitations -- that is the true, or the truest, experience of enlightenment.

TraineeHuman

7th May 2014, 07:31

describing the exercises as toys is really appropriate. I started to enjoy them, having fun and I think that´s a big key for longterm success.

This Idea of enjoying (and liking) things and thus making them much easier to do really came to me the last days I read "Born to run" a book about the Tarahumara, a running tribe which run ultradistances and still keep a smile on their faces.

It's not a good idea to rejoice in suffering, ever. I certainly agree. If you find yourself in suffering, the best thing to do is to face it head-on and work out why it's there and how you can either eliminate it or overcome it.

Unfortunately, there's been a strong tradition in many religions, perhaps especially in Christianity, that suffering is good in itself, because, supposedly, it automatically purifies. If it's that great, then why is the prison system such a huge failure in most cases? After all, prison inflicts suffering on its inmates, supposedly to "cure" them. But generally it just makes them worse.

When we can't avoid suffering, it becomes a great tool for us to learn from, quickly, standing strong. But we don't invite it. When it does come, it's best not to run away, not to deny it or protest its presence. It's not the finger of God, though, any more than non-suffering is.

As I believe wegge might readily say, we should accept only whatever things help us to take wing and release us into the cosmic consciousness, but be quick to reject all those we find are weighing us down, That's the smart thing to do.

TraineeHuman

7th May 2014, 09:58

The whole Judeo-Christian-Muslim notion of sin always causes some unnecessary suffering, just by itself. If I behave incompetently or harmfully or weakly or or mistakenly, then I need to take responsibility for such an act -- for any suffering it causes to others or to me. I do this by learning from it, and also, as far as possible, proactively giving something that might compensate for the others' suffering, if possible. At that point my hands no longer carry any black stains at all and I move on. I don't have some kind of bank account watched by the Devil with another transaction entered in my name.

Suffering only occurs in our plane because Source contains infinite possibilities. And because Source seeks to manifest even some of the wildest of these. Our physical world is a kind of experiment of Source's -- to see how we will all ultimately learn to transform, and grow out of, limited experiences such as suffering and pain into unlimited bliss one day, or sooner. Source is totally committed to making this come about, through awakening higher and higher levels of consciousness in us, until it can happen.

Unfortunately, passages in the New Testament such as: "Blessed are those who mourn, because they shall be comforted" have been greatly abused, to oppress people. Pie in the sky when you die. I suppose what that passage probably meant was that the more losses or defeats you experience in life, the more opportunities life is handing you to learn how not to be a stooge to suffering or victimhood or disharmony next time. Not only that, but the closer your learning may be taking you to where you can move more towards those higher planes where suffering is less, or even non-existent.

TraineeHuman

8th May 2014, 11:28

The astral world is made out of nothing but desires, everywhere. Unfettered, unrepressed desires. My initial experience of this left me feeling very frustrated with the physical world, for a few years. The astral world governs our experience of the physical world in certain ways. One of these is that the biological life-force behind everything resides in the astral. But our desires get very entangled with things in the physical. And the physical world, I then discovered, is ever so limited and constricted by comparison. Frustrating at every turn.

Another thing that gradually became clear to me then was how much we glorify and idealize all sorts of biological mechanisms because desire makes them seem like something so much grander. For instance, it became clear to me that although there is certainly such a thing as genuine, pure love, nevertheless most of what passed as "love" seemed to be desire's glorification of the sexual impulse or of other biological things such as the parent-child bonds. There would usually also be some genuine love present, but I saw how it was often being overshadowed by desire's magic show.

Another advantage of exploring the astral world is that one comes to discover what the ego really is. Quite simply, it's the world of desire. When I then moved on to strongly preferring mental travel, it became more real to me how much of a prison the astral world -- and hence the ego -- is by comparison to any higher world.

It seems to me that great power or great wealth often enables an individual to manifest various unfettered desires in the physical world. Or to get away with doing so far more, if they're so inclined.

The exercise in post #24 was intended to introduce readers to a way of getting straight into the HM level even if briefly -- quite above the mental level as well as above the astral. Even though the answers to one's questions will take the form of thoughts or pictures, they come straight from intuition, before the mind then starts to fiddle with them. Actually, it would be even better if you can get intuitions, insights, inspirations coming directly to your astral level as feelings bypassing the mind. or mostly bypassing it. No need for any reasoning or thinking. You just know. You probably won't be able to give any reasons why. You'll just find the right thing, or the glorious creative solution to some difficult problem or situation.

It's important to spend time cultivating this "silent" perception. Good to turn off the PC and put away any books.

Perhaps only through seeing the worlds of the astral and the mental and of the HM does one become able to clearly identify what's actually important. All of my many spiritual teachers used to emphasize the need to always focus on what's truly important. It seems that every one of us needs to frequently be reminded of the importance of doing this.

TraineeHuman

10th May 2014, 08:27

Some interesting views about the astral plane can be found at Wikipedia if you search for "Intermediate zone". In my experience the astral world was (and is) never really hard to enter, and rarely seemed dangerous -- because I was usually protected or self-protected. So, until reading these statements today by such authoritative figures regarding spirituality, I had always thought of the dangerous astral experiences as those encountered mostly by marijuana users or users of other drugs, or by individuals practicing black magic.

As these writers implicitly say, the astral can be dangerous but only if one hasn't first matured spiritually or psychically enough before exploring it. As they also explain, the main danger is -- or stems from -- a kind of self-aggrandisement. A grabbing tightly onto the experiences, like a dog with a bone. As these writers also point out, true spirituality also involves the unleashing of much greater forces than those in the astral. But the ego likes to pretend that the astral phenomena are the same as those of the higher planes. (The "letting go" or "detachment" I have mentioned in vartious posts is basically, and simply, the letting go of the ego.)

Of course, other authorities, such as Eckankar, claim there is no danger even for a beginner, provided such a person learns to first still their ego a little through meditation.

From Wikipedia:

These things, when they pour down or come in, present themselves with a great force, a vivid sense of inspiration or illumination, much sensation of light and joy, an impression of widening and power. The sadhak feels himself freed from the normal limits, projected into a wonderful new world of experience, filled and enlarged and exalted; what comes associates itself, besides, with his aspirations, ambitions, notions of spiritual fulfilment and yogic siddhi; it is represented even as itself that realisation and fulfilment. Very easily he is carried away by the splendour and the rush, and thinks that he has realised more than he has truly done, something final or at least something sovereignly true.
This is in fact an intermediary state, a zone of transition between the ordinary consciousness in mind and the true yoga knowledge. One may cross without hurt through it, perceiving at once or at an early stage its real nature and refusing to be detained by its half-lights and tempting but imperfect and often mixed and misleading experiences; one may go astray in it, follow false voices and mendacious guidance, and that ends in a spiritual disaster; or one may take up one’s abode in this intermediate zone, care to go no farther and build there some half-truth which one takes for the whole truth or become the instrument of the powers of these transitional planes, - that is what happens to many sadhaks and yogis. -- Sri Aurobindo.

The placid surface of the sea of spirit is the only mirror in which can be caught undisturbed the reflections of spiritual things. When a student starts upon the path and begins to see spots of light flash out now and then, or balls of golden fire roll past him, it does not mean that he is beginning to see the real Self—pure spirit. A moment of deepest peace or wonderful revealings given to the student, is not the awful moment when one is about to see his spiritual guide, much less his own soul. Nor are psychical splashes of blue flame, nor visions of things that afterwards come to pass, nor sights of small sections of the astral light with its wonderful photographs of past or future, nor the sudden ringing of distant fairy-like bells, any proof that you are cultivating spirituality. These things, and still more curious things, will occur when you have passed a little distance on the way, but they are only the mere outposts of a new land which is itself wholly material, and only one remove from the plane of gross physical consciousness.
The liability to be carried off and intoxicated by these phenomena is to be guarded against. We should watch, note and discriminate in all these cases, place them down for future reference, to be related to some law, or for comparison with other circumstances of a like sort. The power that Nature has of deluding us is endless, and if we stop at these matters she will let us no further. It is not that any person or power in nature has declared that if we do so and so we must stop, but when one is carried off by what Boehme calls “God’s wonders,” the result is an intoxication that produces confusion of the intellect. Were one, for instance, to regard every picture seen in the astral light as a spiritual experience, he might truly after a while brook no contradiction upon the subject, but that would be merely because he was drunk with this kind of wine. While he provided with his indulgence and neglected his true progress, which is always dependent upon his purity of motive and conquest of his known or ascertainable defects, nature went on accumulating the store of illusory appearances with which he satiated himself. -- W.Q. Judge

The early efforts of all aspirants in concentration, meditation, self-conquest, and study, bring them into this region. But once here their egoism becomes stimulated by the subtle forces they have evoked, their emotional nature becomes more sensitive and more fluid, their imaginative power becomes more active and is less restrained. The consequence of failure to negotiate these changes properly is swollen vanity, superstitious credulity, emotions run riot, and imagination gone wild. -- Paul Brunton

TraineeHuman

11th May 2014, 01:49

There is certainly a reason why (genuine) spirituality is only one field, one special compartment, in our society, and in most people's lives, and it's generally kept apart from other fields. The reason is, human beings are divided beings. They have a divided consciousness. In fact, they generally have much un-consciousness: about the true nature of reality, and the true nature of themselves, and ultimately the true purpose of anything, really. It's not just that we have a large subconscious as justoneman described in post #75. There's more to the ignorance than that! Even our having the understanding that something seems impossible logically implies and proves that that thing is at least possible.

The problem of human existence, then, that overrides and undercuts everything else, is to overcome that division, and to know how to overcome it. OK, there's no doubt a "good" chance that the destruction of the ecosystem and the China syndrome meltdowns and so on could wipe us or our descendants out physically. But then the divided consciousness would need to reincarnate in some other way, on some other planet(s). And the underlying problem would continue, until it's solved.

Unfortunately, as I've mentioned, we can only solve this problem individually in a full way through the descent of the Divine Mind, into our bodies fully. And that only becomes possible if we've first achieved the full descent of the Higher Mind. And yet, the Divine Mind is simply just the pure consciousness and realization of truth in its fullest and most total sense. You could say it's just the love of Truth, taken kind of to the nth degree. This is why some wise individuals get very far through their passionate love of the Truth. Indeed, the truth is that death is only a switch in our state of consciousness. So for someone sufficiently immersed in Truth-consciousness it will be like throwing a switch, or changing one's clothes. No big deal at all.

There are some amazing ironies along the way in this. One is that in some sense, through being so divided we can appreciate the benefits of being undivided better than any other beings. Another is that to find the undivided, we really only need to go deeply enough within.

Another is the fact the Divine Mind is already resident in each of our cells. Unfortunately, it's present in a veiled and disguised way. To prove that it's actually present in our cellls, though, we can consider the following. If a person can learn to completely listen to her/his body and let it totally determine what it wants to eat, and when, a curious thing happens. The body soon starts selecting only and exactly the food it truly needs -- with amazing accuracy and nutritional and medical "knowledge". There has been a great deal of research proving this. For instance, very young children, when given the opportunity to eat any type of food at all, will within days come to prefer raw carrots and celery and so on, and lose interest in Mars bars and so on. There's also been extensive research on the intelligent consciousness that somehow resides within each individual cell. I won't quote any references here. But I will point out that if you have ever had a major transcendental experience, you'll know that it wasn't real or full until you felt it in, and coming through, each of your individual cells somehow.

Nassim Haramein correctly points out that every atom contains a black hole. Equally, so does every body cell. I know this through OB "travel" -- though in the case of body cells, it was at a formless OB level. Wherever the Divine Mind is hiding itself in the physical, there, apparently, you'll find a black hole, or white hole, however microscopic.

animovado

11th May 2014, 11:50

Hi TH,
in your post #1647 you quoted Paul Brunton, which reminds me of the first time that
I've seen, only intellectually, just through a line of reasoning, that there's nothing "out there".
In his book "The Hidden Teaching Beyond Yoga" he describes in chapter nine, "From Thing To Thought", how we really perceive the world we're seem to exist in.
By that way of thinking I was introduced to a sort of "holographic" system of thought and as a side-effect the topic of OBE's became less important, because our real "place to be" seems to be out of body, anyway.
But, of course, that doesn't mean that OBE's are not a way to realize the illusiveness of
forms in general. On the other hand we can take such experiences to underline the reality of the bodies and their division even more and the density of our self-created prison seems to be getting worse.

I like to close with a quote from Shakespeares Macbeth:

"Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

TraineeHuman

12th May 2014, 06:51

you quoted Paul Brunton, which reminds me of the first time that
I've seen, only intellectually, just through a line of reasoning, that there's nothing "out there".
In his book "The Hidden Teaching Beyond Yoga" he describes in chapter nine, "From Thing To Thought", how we really perceive the world we're seem to exist in.
By that way of thinking I was introduced to a sort of "holographic" system of thought and as a side-effect the topic of OBE's became less important, because our real "place to be" seems to be out of body, anyway.
But, of course, that doesn't mean that OBE's are not a way to realize the illusiveness of
forms in general.

Thank you for your very interesting and insightful post, animovado. Firstly, though, I use the term "OBEs" to cover a much broader range of experiences than just astral travel/projection -- as I've taken pains to make clear dozens of times in the course of this thread.

And I would expand on your comment that "'our place to be' seems to be out of body anyway" as follows -- though of course you may not agree with all of this, but that's fine. I would add "out of the heart and mind" to "out of the body", though I would and now will qualify and expand on what might be meant by "our place to be". Basically, we're talking about release from the prison not only of the body but also of the heart and of the mind and of "your" life.

Firstly, the most fundamental instruction in meditation, explicitly or at least implicitly, once one gets past the beginner instruction to learn to blank out or "fade down" thoughts, is to allow everything to be exactly as it is. This means taking the Witness position, as if you were "nothing", a pure observer of the rest of yourself. Let me clarify some of what that really involves.

It involves consciously separating your soul -- your HM -- from not only your body, but also from your mind and your heart and your life. As you effectively point out, animovado, one's body, one's mind, one's life, and so on, are only various (incomplete) forms of one's true self, which is indeed ultimately quite formless.

It's great to learn how to do this without putting concepts or labels on it. Trouble is, in many (though not all ) meditation traditions/schools it isn't then adequately made clear in words what one has learnt to do. So, let me clarify, firstly, what it means to achieve release from subjection and slavery to the body. Then I'll clarify what's involved in release from subjection to the other things as well.

Even beginners at meditation soon experience some release from the physical senses, often without properly realizing it --i.e., some ability to feel or know what it's like being in a space beyond the physical senses. However, they ideally should be informed at that point that this involves getting some freedom from the hooks of Matter. And that they no longer need to subject themselves to Matter's laziness, its obscurations, its habits of weakness and passivity, and so on. But perhaps more importantly, through meditation some detachment is achieved from physical desires. From all the ways in which the physical desires not only imprison one but trivialize or minimize one's worldview, one's horizon, one's world. These include such things as irritability, vindictiveness, greed, apathy, overindulgence, and any other direct or indirect form of "struggle for survival" or of "me first" to the exclusion of others' interests or needs.

Whether one achieves this through astral travel or through meditation, I don't consider that's important. What concerns me is -- and I consider this is a tragedy --, meditators or astral travelers usually aren't informed that they've achieved a state from which they can learn to master all physical or "survival" desires. It's simply a matter of not giving those habits or desires your support. Some of those habits will take a long time to break down completely. But the fact is, they're not strong enough to bear your state of detachment. However, you need to appreciate that fact! You need to confirm it, then apply it fearlessly. Some physical habits will resist for some time. But once you know this state gives you power over them, it's only a matter of time before they fall. If you don't truly know, or come to know, for certain that you have this power over them, then it's very unlikely you'll rid yourself of all that rubbish. No matter how many times you astral travel or meditate well.

In my next post I'll continue, with an explanation of what's similarly involved in achieving release from the heart and the mind, and why that's so important.

But let me just clarify a little what the ego is. I've already referred to the ego as basically being desire, i.e. all wants that aren't really essential needs. (We all need a roof over our heads and a certain amount of nutritious food and some clothing that's adequately protective with regard to the weather, and a few other things like that. Those wants aren't desires. I'm not saying we need to live a life of poverty at all, either. Just to detach from desire.) Desire has not only the physical habits and distorted physical survival urges I've mentioned, but also, of course, all sorts of egocentric emotions, plus all sorts of thoughts which we could call desire-thoughts. So, it covers the physical, astral (emotional) and mental worlds, but it doesn't comprise the entirety of what's in those worlds or planes. That, then, is where the ego lives. By the way, some describe the ego as one's self-image, suggesting it's a mental construct. What they don't realize is that the ego is totally one's subconscious self-image, formed out of Animal urges and tendencies and not, essentially, out of conscious thoughts -- not at its core.

TraineeHuman

12th May 2014, 08:15

We have created a separation between the soul that knows all about us and actually controls the major circumstances of our life on the one hand, and the "us" that has quite forgotten our true power and instead is identified and entangled with the false belief that its life is controlled and defined by the body and the mind and the emotions. That soul stands back as if it were "nothing", to make that separation clear. It rests absolutely from action, for these purposes. And yet our soul has the most extraordinary power, and certainly has the power to rescue us and liberate us from our deluded identifications. But this doesn't mean, for instance, that it --and we -- will fail to look after the body in terms of keeping it healthy and giving it the right food and rest and so on.

Notice that when the soul does this, the (ordinary) mind takes up the position of separating itself from the desire-mind. It draws back from its emotions and becomes the Witness of these, and also of the bodily movements and of all physical bodily experiences. The mind is listening to the soul in effect saying: "I am not this thing that suffers and lives by force and effort and conflict, and gets angry or afraid or cheerful or depressed as its moods take it."

Now we have a split inside the mind. On the one hand there's the emotional mind, the desire-mind, but there's also an observing mind that sees and understands but remains quite detached from what's going on in the emotional mind.That observing mind then becomes aware -- and here's my crucial point again -- that the desire-mind is only allowed to exist with the observing mind's approval. The observing mind can turn the whole nonsensical drama of the emotional mind off whenever it pleases.

But what you need to do, folks, is get to the point where you truly can stably remain in the frame of that observing mind. Where you truly can turn off the entire emotional mind at times, even though you won't realize you can do it. This you can achieve through meditation, and also through mastering OB travel at an upper mental plane level. No doubt in other ways also. I don't care how you do it. But this is what it takes to get the real soul in you to emerge.

There is one more stage from there, though. Now the soul has used the observing thought-mind to release itself -- you -- from identification with the body, the desire-led emotions, and all desire-led thoughts. Now it says: "I'm not the thought-mind either, even in its calm, observing mode! I'm neither the thoughts nor the thinker. All these opinions, ideas, preferences, self-doubts, dogmas, points of view -- they're not me either." With that the soul turns off the thinking mind and plunges into utter silence. Yet in that silence all true knowledge, all true beauty can be found.

TraineeHuman

14th May 2014, 14:51

My last post described how the soul or HM gets released or detached (at first temporarily) from the body, mind, heart, life, and so on -- from all that's physical, emotional and emotional. Initially this feels like utter "nothing" or peace or great joy or bliss. Yes, one does feel it. "Sensation" or "feeling", in this sense, certainly does work beyond the physical, emotional and mental realms. You absolutely feel it from inside you.

That feeling is ever so subtle, so light. It seems very hard to believe, at first, that this wisp could be your Higher Mind/Self, possessing true Intelligence, and, whether you know it or not, planning many circumstances that "happen" throughout your entire life. Being subtler than anything else, it's something you can't grasp hold of and capture somehow. It's way too slippery for that. You have to allow it, to invite it, and not use any force.

The challenge now becomes to be aware of its presence more and more -- whenever you get reminded to do so. You need to keep building on that, and never give it up.

Eventually you can learn to be aware of it always. One way to bring it out straight away is to concentrate on just watching yourself. Another is the first half of the exercise that was introduced in post #114 --- simply feeling how (good) it is just to be alive, to exist, and staying with that feeling and letting go into it deeper and deeper.

The parable of Jesus regarding how the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds but turns into the biggest of all trees is undoubtedly about the way one's experience of the HM or soul grows as one progresses in this. As you become more aware of it, you'll certainly at some point discover that this "nothing" does have enormous power after all. The reason why that power is enormous is because ultimately it's not individual but more universal or archetypal. That doesn't then make you lesser, once it's unleashed. Rather, it adds more to what you are, and what you can do, as one person. Around twelve months or more ago in this thread, AwakeInADream evidently became at least somewhat aware of how considerable this power is. What at first seems like, say, the teensiest "still, small voice" eventually turns out to be vast, a vast roar. In particular, the worlds of desire and of polarities are gradually replaced by such things as oneness, proactiveness, true Power, Intelligence, profound peace, creativity, bliss, and so on.

The ego, the desires tied to the body-sense was the first form in which Source created out of Matter, out of mud, a lower type of "awareness", or "intelligent" life at any rate, as a first step in the great evolution that Source has always intended for man/woman. The dissolution of that limiting ego is the one condition for this very same Life to arrive at its true fruition, and find the true Person. But separation from the ego is a very long process to complete. From observation of various real-life enlightened beings, I suspect that the completion of total separation from the ego may not even be possible while one is still in a physical bodily form. But also, it does seem to be clear that something very close to full separation can largely be there, eventually.

Mature meditators and mature astral (or, rather, upper mental) travelers aren't the only ones who tap into this greater inner power. Creative artists are another group. If you talk to any genuine creative artist, they'll tell you of how they are driven, and so to speak kind of "possessed", by a greater power within them that ignores their petty selfish desires. They know that this power isn't individual, but universal, even though it comes through them in a unique way. Many of the Greeks and many of the most famous poets particularly would speak of their "daemon", which in today's language means "angel", not "demon". They would claim that in all their works they were merely taking dictation from it. The tragedy, though, is that, for instance, many of the most famous painters and writers became alcoholics or drug addicts. Why? Because they didn't understand it was necessary to use still awareness to gradually dissolve desire. And also, they didn't understand that their ego wasn't the true them. Having experienced the most huge bliss and power via their HM, they mistakenly sought great pleasure and powerful energies in the more ordinary side of their lives.

There is certainly much more to say about what's involved in the very long process of separation from the ego, and also from servitude to the polarities (such as pleasure and pain, like and dislike).

TraineeHuman

16th May 2014, 02:18

In practice, most experience periods of partial and temporary release of the ego. On again, off again, perhaps for a very long time.

But with experience we do become more and more aware and accepting of the greater-than-individual character of the soul, our soul. We can then get to the point where we sense, or see, that individuality itself is too disconnected a thing, and therefore must be an illusion in some sense. I beg to strongly differ that, if truly acted on, this amounts to "annihilation" at all, in spite of what the Sufis, and indeed the Advaitins and the Monists all usually say -- or seem to.

Certainly, enlightenment is the experience or realization that there is really nothing but the Divine, the Oneness, and the greater-than-individual road leads to that, or certainly more and more towards that. But I see the problem as being to do with language. The language that those who have experienced/attained enlightenment use too often sounds as if they're painting a "less than what seemed to be there before" picture of reality rather than "everything that was there before, only better, and more of what's better." I claim the latter is much less misleading. The problem is, how do you describe something utterly different from whatever one has experienced before? You might as well say that Source, or true Oneness, is a kind of dream beyond all dreams. Another way to put this is to say that supposing you are now Oneness, or within Oneness, the view from the inside will be utterly different than from the outside. And I would stress that the practical application of the enlightened view needs to be ever so wider, more inclusive. It has to extend to the widest reaches -- to fully embrace and include the mind, the body, the emotions, the life, the actions. Otherwise it isn't a full release from non-individuality into non-separation. Surely?

There's also a reason why the release from the ego in practice never gets perfectly completed (in this world). The ego is endless, basically, if you want to keep messing with it and probing it. But the way to separate is to put your attention on that which is non-ego more and more fully. More and more sweet calmness in the face of all insults and slings and arrows and would-be quarrels and all failures and so on -- without letting yourself fall victim.

In my own case, for the first decade and a half I sought to put my attention on things of the soul, as far as practicable. What I mean is, I didn't withdraw from sexuality or normal work or study or food or anything else that was reasonably wholesome -- except that I instinctively avoided mixing with or communicating with "bad company" as far as I possibly could -- which unfortunately seemed to me to include most of the population. It was only years later that I would appreciate that in many ways the point of releasing the soul was that one then lives a life at two levels, a double life. And that the soul level is largely immune from suffering and harm. And that at the soul level there is more than enough joy and peace and love that one can "give" huge quantities of that joy and energy and attention out to others without getting depleted at the soul level. And that's ultimately maybe the whole point of having the greater-than-individual "resources" of energy and joy and peace: to spread a little of the wealth around so that others may also benefit. Even though usually it's merely in "small is beautiful" ways.

Still, probably the greatest service to humanity is to liberate yourself as fully as possible -- because we're all creating effects on others all the time, wherever we go. To go from the released soul to the continual awareness of Source, though, it's absolutely necessary to continually fix your awareness on that greater power and indeed, as far as you can, on Source itself, or the closest you can get to it -- such as Oneness, and Infinity.

Another extraordinary thing that always occurs is that as one gradually releases the soul from the ego, the soul begins to "descend" into the body, starting from the area above the top of the head. (This needs to be preceded by the full ascent of the kundalini energy, by the way. But that is far more common nowadays than many seem to realize.) What this means is that the soul slowly actually creates a new, purer emotional body and mental body, one chakra at a time. The double life gets weirder still. Prior to this starting, you may have noticed the soul creating electromagnetic energy that comes into your body from behind, initially perhaps in the spine but then particularly focused on the center of the chest. Actually it will focus on the thymus gland, which lies at the front of the chest. That gland has an emotional intensity about it -- so it will become "the spiritual heart". Usually the soul's energy activating this gland makes a person become "optimistic". It's not really optimism, but the ability to see more of the ultimately positive character of reality in the light of the workings of Source.

Not long after, one may feel the soul opening up the third eye and various energy channels that connect with it. After that there's the big area directly above the head. Once this has been activated, the soul starts "descending into the body", actually creating a new emotional body and a new mental body within, one chakra level at a time.

If the soul has descended all the way to a little below the feet, you'll be ready for Source itself to begin a similar journey. But it's not enough just to become intensely aware of Source. It's a matter of totally surrendering to Source. No-one surrenders perfectly. Nor without going through absolute hell, and worse. Imagine floating in Infinity without any rudder or anything to hold on to.

TraineeHuman

17th May 2014, 13:29

In the afterlife, I happen to know for a fact that the primary problem for the majority of people is, in a nutshell, to properly separate their soul from their ego.

Far better, may I suggest, and easier, to learn to do it, if you can, while you still have a physical body. I've talked about some aspects of this already in post #1379 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=764354&viewfull=1#post764354), and a little in post #1251, among others.

Obviously, at death we all separate fully (well, at least physically) from the physical body. There are also some other types of separation that occur at death as well. But unfortunately, what I've learnt is that for many it can be rather too little too late -- as far as having an optimal afterlife goes. Still, as the Tibetan Buddhists like to say, even if you've only learnt how to meditate, or astral travel, very badly, you can be assured you'll have an easy death, and an easy beginning to the afterlife.

The soul is in itself essentially beyond time, even though it enters into time, and so can and does have one foot in time, so to speak. If you don't have any clear awareness or sense of it, though, how could you say (or tell whether) it's eternal? Before you can even say for sure that something's eternal, you have to directly know what it is, surely? Do you instead suppose that what you are is some kind of life-Matter, life-stuff, that just gets recombined over and over in some way from one life to the next? No, you're not! You're (at least) a conscious self, and the Infinite has some specific purposes just for you.

soleil

17th May 2014, 17:21

TraineeHuman

18th May 2014, 00:59

The release of the soul from the ego in (at least) a semi-permanent way does occur for some individuals. They may still "fall" back briefly at times, but recover. I suggest it's very important for all such individuals to turn their attention towards finding (at least) glimpses of the Divine in the physical world. That's in addition to the activity of continually turning their attention to Source itself, at its own supreme level. Two directions, two activities at once. This is crucially important, as I'll spend most of this post doing my best to explain. The best way to do the former may be to continually "feel" or be aware of the presence of Source, or of some fragment of it, in every single thing, all the time.

Which is particularly easy to do in Nature. When you're close to trees or in natural places, if you're very open you can absorb so much of what Nature has to communicate. Because trees do not have their consciousness polluted by human "civilization" at all.

I once knew someone who underwent almost a sudden breakup with the ego, thanks to intense work by herself and some expert help. As seems to happen with some individuals at that point, she then tried to "jump" straight into full union with Source. (Not that there aren't individuals who are able to do that successfully at that point.) Let me explain that Source (as distinct from the Divine Mind, which is the active "face" of Source) is totally withdrawn, in many ways. It sees all and knows all, but regards all utterly impartially, nonjudgmentally. Of course, as you can imagine, the power of Source's mere awareness is itself gigantic and must cause huge effects in some "collateral" fashion anyway. But in any case, this individual then would be telepathically aware, everywhere she went, of what everyone was thinking and just what neurotic games they were playing. But generally she would say nothing, being very aware that there was no quick way to cure most individuals of their neurotic condition or their habitual games. She did actually criticize me a number of times. But in retrospect I guess that must have been a big compliment, however backhanded its delivery was at those times. It must have meant she considered I was awake enough to perhaps readily change for the better in whatever respects.

I've also come across a number of enlightened individuals who were hermits, or were interested in becoming so soon. And even, for example, U.G. Krishnamurti spent two or three years living on the streets of London as a homeless but enlightened person. I would see all of these individuals as having made the mistake, at least temporarily, of turning the "face" of their released soul to the Divine on high only, instead of at the same time looking for and finding the Divine in things at the physical, emotional and mental levels of the ordinary world. It can be ever so tempting to "escape to paradise", though -- which is what most hermits are doing. In the world of Source there is no actor, no subject (or object) at all. And yet action still goes on mightily, due purely to the "momentum" of Source's simply being, existing. In spite of that, there is also a fathomless stillness, which is beautiful and delightful beyond words. It seems at first unrecognisably different from anything we might normally imagine "life" to be. And yet it's realer and more interconnected than anything else.

The released soul may temporarily rise, just after its release, to identifying with Source quite fully, and enter into a great "Nothing" of which nothing can even be said, in many ways. This is utter No-Self, a place where the universe and even all the higher levels appear not to exist at all -- non-being, if you like. This is what those who speak of "nirvana" as oblivion are talking about, and presumably it's also the Sufis' "annihilation" and maybe the Advaita Vedantins' and Monists' "dissolution", not to mention the nihilism which many Buddhists seem to espouse, though I strongly doubt if the Buddha ever intended such.

I've drunk deep at that well too. I have to say, though, that I happen to know that all this is merely a seeing of Source from one angle only, so to speak. It's actually a failure to know Source more fully, from more "angles". I can certainly appreciate that this flight into supposed extinction -- which is actually not extinction at all, but just a kind of mirage of that -- is entered with the best and noblest of intentions. It happens because individuals want to rush into union with Source as quickly and deeply as possible. But it still is a rushing, however noble. The more haste, the less speed in the end, I have to say. Such eagerness to be "nothing", and to assume there's ultimately nothing else better. It's sad there are so many spiritual traditions and schools that even teach that such (supposed) extinction or dissolution or annihilation is the only exit from the world of suffering. That's simply not true. If you have released your soul from the ego somewhat and hence have activated the greater forces within, then your workmates need you, your family needs you, ultimately the planet needs you. Don't hide your light under a bushel.

And anyway, ultimately there's nothing more beautiful than the sight of Matter as something extraordinarily delightful, solid yet radiating subtle Light, the highest heights mixed with the lowest depths. And I strongly suggest that is the only true "Ascension" for hunmanity, by the way.Again, the true path is for these dwellers in "nothing" to turn their attention also towards unceasingly finding (at least) glimpses of the Divine in the physical world.

TraineeHuman

20th May 2014, 13:03

In reality we are not persons, but something greater and better than that. The very word "person" comes from p e r s o n a, which means a mask. Unfortunately there's no commonly used word that describes what we truly are. Not even remotely, I would suggest.

I guess we could say what you really are is something like a great Force or Forces. We could, only to most that might sound less alive or less intelligent than being a "person". To suppose you are nothing more than a person is itself a type of self-imprisonment, self-limitation. If you can peel back personhood, that's a significant step to getting closer to seeing what in the world (and beyond the world) you and I might really be.

The soul (the HM) respects and honors persons, even while at the same time it's very aware of how inadequate and how much of a trap that notion is.

You can indeed say that personhood eventually gets annihilated or extinguished at a fuller level of reality. Even though while living in this society and civilization we of course have to continue to play the "person" shell game. Or we even choose to continue to do so with ourselves, any time we take something personally. It's also true to say that at certain higher levels, individuality eventually gets given up in certain important ways. But not totally. I claim there are some major problems of understanding caused by the fact that if you really are completely in Oneness, the view from the inside becomes very different than you imagined from the outside. To me, words such as "annihilation" are wild exaggerations, and seem to have to do with the ego's attachment to fear -- if they're applied to anything too much deeper than personhood. Let me explain.

One thing that happens once the HM is released is that the individual comes to understand, for the first time and not just intellectually, that who they really are is quite undefinable. Unfortunately, though, many usually mistake this stage for the stage of becoming one with Infinity. It is, however, true in my experience that at the time of release, or not long after, the individual will indeed have an experience of temporary union with Source itself. And that is, in fact, (the lowest level of) enlightenment. But so many then falsely imagine that now they have become consciously Infinite somehow. They haven't, unfortunately. This is only the beginning of a very long new, further journey. In my experience, constant awareness of undefinability, when worked on and developed, always leads to gigantic independence of spirit -- usually combined with a great gentleness or fineness. That independence is extremely useful for breaking away from one's conditioning. It also, paradoxically, seems to unite that individual more with humanity in general, somehow.

Living with the constant knowledge that you are actually something quite undefinable is very difficult to start with, to put it mildly. Society demands that you be practical and specific in most of the work you do, and in how you communicate with others, and so on. But initially you seem to see that now you're above all that. You therefore need to learn now to live constantly with two separate consciousnesses. One of these initially seems extremely vague, and very "big picture" and other-worldly. You'll never have anything more than that dazzling memory of Infinity, though, until you've learnt to totally integrate the two consciousnesses. This is what my previous post was about. And this is so even though that memory of Infinity will be a memory where you saw for certain that you are somehow made of exactly the same stuff as living Infinity is made of.

To recap my previous post a little, our major and primary aim, when we detach from the mind, the emotions, the life, and the body -- and anything else in us that is not timeless, not infinitely vast --, is to get rid of and fully detach from any false idea of the self. We certainly aim for that which is eternal in us, and for nothing less. Eventually certain individuals do realize that extreme goal. They do manage to be united with the Infinite, perhaps quite regularly. Nevertheless, they haven't reached the ultimate.

Although they have realized the eternal self that they are, their task now is to establish and realize the true relationship between that eternal itself and the finite, veiled world which up till then they had mistakenly taken for their own being and the only possible reality. The task is to now develop and consolidate the relationship between Infinity on the one hand and the world of ordinary, everyday life on the other. Once, in the past, we had supposed the eternal self to be only a concept, and a remote one if not a quite illusory one. Because back then we couldn't imagine ourselves as anything except the mind, the body, and the life, living in and through time.

When we have once got rid of our confinement to the lower status, we are apt to seize on the other side of the same erroneous relation between self and world. In other words, we tend to regard this eternity which we increasingly are or in which we live as the sole reality and begin to look down from it upon the world and ordinary humanity as a remote illusion and unreality, because that is a status quite opposite to our new foundation in which we no longer place our roots of consciousness, from which we have been lifted up and transfigured and with which we seem to have no longer any binding link. This is all the more likely to happen if we have made the finding of the eternal Self not only our primary, but our one and absorbing objective in the withdrawal from personhood (body, mind and life). But the self and the world are in an eternal close relation and there is a connection between them, not a gulf that has to be leaped.

Finally, may I point out something regarding the practice recommended in my last post. That was the practice of striving to see the Infinite in all mundane things everywhere. If one had really, truly become one with the Infinite, then one would already be seeing nothing but the Infinite everywhere. I mean, one would be seeing the finite, but also at the same time seeing the Infinite in each example of the finite. Only then, therefore, would this practice become superfluous.

In the meanwhile, that practice is also a really great way to release the HM, if you haven't got to that point yet.

TraineeHuman

21st May 2014, 14:47

im also, ready to pop (due mid june), and i always seem to feel grounded and scatter brained (for ex, i forgot my purse somewhere and didnt even clue in for 24+hrs later. lol.
so im taking what insights i can get.

th, in my dreams i find myself encouraging others to explore obe or at least drop tips, and i have not managed to become lucid myself. ive openly asked my hs to help unblock myself, but no cigar.

The birth of a child is a very interesting time. I've been writing posts about the second birth. Before physical birth, the infant is usually coming from what amounts to that "second birth" space, which is a lofty place.

Unfortunately, though, at the time of birth the infant immediately takes on a whole series of self-judgments which have been carried over from the end of its last physical life. But even worse, tragically, because our civilization is as fallen as it is, the infant gradually unlearns the whole "second birth" state, and also absorbs aspects of the egos of the parents and, usually to a lesser degree, of any siblings.

This happens because the infant has no way to connect or relate its (profound) intuitive knowledge of its soul, and even of Source, to what normally passes for knowledge in the world of its parents. This is in some ways similar to the individuals I've been talking of in my last two posts. I mean the individuals who seek to jump into the transcendent state and deny the intimate interconnection between the higher worlds and the physical world.

Because the infant lacks such knowledge, she/he has no option but to get more and more enmeshed in an ignorant understanding of reality that the parents are in. For instance, if the infant did not learn, by example from the parents and siblings, a fallen understanding of desire, then the infant would not need to develop an ego at all. Instead, in practice the ego becomes an intermediate evolutionary step towards later recovering the higher consciousness by redeveloping it.

Of course, the infant has to undergo a triple birth: in body, emotions, and mind. The irony is, birth and development at these levels is necessary for survival in this world, even though the infant normally comes in in a wiser state at higher levels than its parents.

I don't know if any researcher has found any satisfactory explanation for post partum depression. But I strongly suspect it arises for the following simple reason. The mother-to-be, in some vague sense or other, becomes aware of a higher-dimensional energy continually about her -- that of her child-to-be's aware soul. Then, once birth occurs, the mother becomes aware that the higher-dimensional energy is no longer there, or not nearly as strongly. Which is a cold turkey situation. The child's awareness has "fallen" somewhat because of the much greater density of the physical world the child has now entered.

By the way, sway, my intuition suggests you might even "pop" slightly before mid-June -- but I may be wrong.

The other fascinating thing is that because the child is coming in from a higher dimension, the mother gets profoundly energized with higher-dimensional energy, at least once the birth ordeal is over. I don't know exactly why this happens (I haven't observed any birth), but I've seen many spiritually aware mothers' faces absolutely glowing with Light for days or weeks after the birth.

Jake

22nd May 2014, 04:10

TraineeHuman

23rd May 2014, 11:38

There can only be relationship between two realities.

Suppose we have successfully made our released (or largely released) soul a reality. Then if it has a relationship to the ordinary world, the latter must also be a reality. So the latter must be altogether treated as such.

As I said in my second last post, it all comes down to changing how we see everything. Instead of "see", I guess you could equally say "directly experience, or be". The seeing, the underlying perspective, is everything. It seems such a slight thing, but the truth is it's everything. That's why you haven't truly "made it" spiritually until you can and do see everything as the Divine, all the time. The more you see beyond and through the veils, the more you will see not just the ordinary world where everyone else sees the latter. Instead, you will everywhere "see" the play of Intelligence. And you will "see" more and more too that that Intelligence is none other than you.

Do all the "lesser" levels of existence then become just empty shells, shallow names? No, they don't. The Divine rejoices in them all and takes them all more seriously than we probably do -- because it can never stop knowing that they are fully a part of itself, a totally valid expression of itself. To Source these are not just empty forms or names, but its very own skin, so to speak. And so, the ultimate is to become one with all existences, great and small, and leave nothing out.

By seeing more and more, you are continually expanding. I don't call that "extinction". Certainly, alomg the way you need to discard all sorts of misperceptions and misguided actions due to having had a divided consciousness. Then it's a matter of re-seeing or re-doing in those areas. I'm sorry, but that's not extinction.

There are many other things one can say about this, and no doubt I'll say at least something more about this most fascinating and misunderstood subject, which is ultimately the destiny of all of us. But right now, for the benefit of any newer readers, I'd like to take the liberty of reproducing post #982:

Source in itself is beyond individualisation. That’s true enough, but man, do people misunderstand what that means – and some things it doesn’t imply.

I’ve already mentioned how some imagine that being permanently united with Source necessarily means ceasing to exist. On the contrary, my understanding is that it means adding to the universal totality, of pure Existence itself. There’s a story that whenever one of the Buddha’s group of followers reached true enlightenment, all the blossom trees released a huge shower of petals. Existence itself had just become a little bit brighter, a tiny bit fuller and more enjoyable.

Second fallacy. All the evidence available to me from my experience suggests that it’s not the case that Source amounts to just a total unity, a pure oneness of some sort. No! Source isn’t as – well, limited – as that. Surely, it’s obvious that Source also allows and in every way supports the existence of many within the one.

Not only that. Source also actively creates and supports ignorance, and hence the illusion of the (separate) ego! You’ve got to remember that Source is all-embracing! That does mean all-embracing. It means that Source loves and creates the whole caboodle, not just the warm fuzzies in the universe. You know, it creates and loves even the Satanists and Lucifer and the NWO and all that.

As far as Source is concerned, it all feels blissful – but you’d feel bliss too if you had as huge a bird’s eyeview as Source enjoys.

Next, in my limited experience it doesn’t seem to be true that Source is the One and the only One. My experience suggests there are many “Ones”, many Absolutes. Actually, instead of talking in terms of “one” versus “many”, I claim you can more accurately talk in terms of “foreground” versus “background” or “horizon”. Notice that here “the One” becomes the background, and we usually think of the background as less important than whatever individual thing is in the foreground. My statement that there are many “Ones” becomes a statement that there are many all-encompassing backgrounds. Anyway, that’s my experience.

But even if you want to cling to having only one ultimate “One(ness)”, as I believe I’ve pointed out, that Oneness takes on a number of different, quite contradictory attitudes – one of pure oneness, one of manyness joined by underlying oneness, and one of separativeness, of egos, and even of all “evil”. Being Source is the toughest job in the universe.

TraineeHuman

24th May 2014, 11:09

Let's say you accept you have a divided consciousness, or a dark side. Doesn't it follow that the only way out is to absolutely surrender to something that's the united "you", the truer "you"? How else would that be possible? And doesn't it also follow that this united "you" will initially seem somewhat or greatly unlike the "you" you believe you know?

Because "annihilation" is altogether an exaggeration and ultimately an incorrect notion in most senses, at least according to myself, that leaves us with a problem which it seems the world-denying ascetics traditionally avoided. They sought to reject acting in the ordinary world altogether. Or, less extremely, they claimed that one should keep only those actions or behaviors which are absolutely essential, and find some other, "holy" way of living, in which a spiritualised consciousness can find its true expression. A partial abandonment, keeping only such things as can bear a spiritual change, and the sudden creation of a new life thoroughly based, in its form no less than in its inspiration and motivation, on the unity, wideness, peace, joy and harmony of the freed soul.

But my suggestion -- which in practice for most of us Westerners is the only option available to adopt -- is to accept the underlying argument of the Bhaghavad Gita. This argument concludes that even the liberated soul, living in the Truth, should still undertake all the activities of ordinary life. (As they say in Zen, after enlightenment you still chop wood.) But then, it seems, any gains will only be inward, and that situation may stay that way possibly for a long time. This is because we have to allow that consciousness to gradually teach us how to transform the imperfection all around us in our lives, which is ultimately foreign to the soul -- and for the soul itself to grow more and powerful, as it makes us ready for something greater.

As the Bhaghavad Gita suggests and so eloquently argues, until the time when one is truly ready, any attempt to control our own lives -- through some kind of strict ethical code, or some kind of protection from "the world" -- is a compromise, and true consciousness doesn't compromise its very nature. Equally so for any attempt to live a bohemian life of hedonism or addiction to pleasure, on the grounds that one has mystical experiences of sorts, or is already spiritually "liberated" to do whatever one likes, and to indulge in escapism of various kinds. Neither of these is true freedom, and in the long run they both only get in the way of the true freedom that the soul ultimately possesses.

We have to wait until we reach a level of consciousness where we see the true essence of things, not the appearances. How do we do that? We need to find it within ourselves to receive and accept inside us the power of the soul and even, preferably, of the Divine. That means surrendering to it. I guess you could call such surrender an "annihilation" if you like. But it's an annihilation of our egoic resistance to the control and power and guidance of that higher part of ourselves. Yes, it's a second consciousness, or "Person" if you like, inside of us, "possessing" us in a positive way, if you like. And yes, we do need to let it take over. I still claim that's not annihilation, because that "Other" is in fact the real us. It's our own inner Light, which we stopped seeing because we became used to a world of darkness and blindness. Now, at last, we see so much more, including how much vaster we ourselves are, than we ever had imagined. Surrender also leads to inspiration, becoming eventually more and more present in one's life.

TraineeHuman

27th May 2014, 11:15

One fascinating topic is that of the unsayable. The extraordinary thing is, almost everything from planes above the mental has a "version" in the mental plane that enables us to grasp it in some partial sense after all. The "version" in the mental plane isn't the full reality, of course, and yet it certainly gives us a definite taste, so to speak, of what that particular part of the higher reality may be like in each case.

In considerations of astral travel, most place huge importance on whether or not they can remember what they experienced while OB. Actually we are all always OB while we're dreaming. But if we were "conscious" that we were dreaming at the time we were dreaming, that makes it a "lucid" dream. Supposedly a big deal, a huge difference. But that "conscious" just means we had a separately held, persisting mental concept -- which we later call a "memory" -- of what we were doing at the time, i.e., dreaming. Since when did mental concepts -- even memories -- get so overwhelmingly important? Isn't what we experience more important, and what effects that has on us?

As I see it, what's primarily important is whether you're living more in the false or the true self. Maybe in astral travel or meditation you'll encounter your true self, or some kind of real, very vivid inkling of it at least.

The problem is, how does one rise from being a "self" created by the mind (including by emotions and physical experiences) to something altogether beyond mind? The only solution is that one needs to reach "up" with the mind but then be open for the higher influences to step in -- in its place! That's all we can do, at first. One thing to overcome here is the (ordinary) mind's perception that Source, and even the HM, is superior to it. That's unfortunate, when the whole journey boils down to being the HM and ultimately being Source.

When I first taught myself to meditate intensively, I often did this through (in effect) the practice known as "contemplation". Contemplation involves taking some important "spiritual" topic --such as, say, what would mean to be immortal? -- and letting one's mind bring up all the thoughts it has on that subject until it has run out of ideas. At that point you still strongly hold the intention to stay with that one topic, and a curious thing happens.

You now have attention, or awareness, that's largely operating beyond the (ordinary) mind, although somehow that attention initially stays strictly confined to involving wordless "energies", or whatever, that are relevant to the topic. Once this happens, you have entered at least the lowest level formless worlds, and you have entered into your HM.

At this point, the Christian and Jewish and Muslim mystics traditionally claimed that how a high a level of being you (temporarily) rose to would depend on "grace", not on "you". Well, it's true it doesn't depend on your own (ordinary) mind. But at this point you're operating on pure awareness, which is more free-form than the conceptual mind. In fact, it's so "free-form" it's quite formless. But I would insist that the "huge gulf" supposedly existing between God and (wo)man is quite an impediment here. It would be much more appropriate for you to throw the notion of such a gulf away here, temporarily at least.

At this point I'd add in the basic meditation instruction used by the Buddha, Vedantins, and Zen practitioners: simply allow everything to be exactly as it is. Just let go of everything. Even just allow the allowing to be (which will often involve just allowing at astral and mental levels, actually -- but forget about those levels while you're doing it). That will take you all the way into the heart of Source, if you truly let it.

And what will such an experience be like? Certainly a surprise, beyond whatever the mind had imagined. There are two varieties. One is total clarity, a special type of "nothing". This is the "nothing" when you experience being totally absorbed in something higher -- so that the ordinary mind does indeed temporarily become "nothing". Take that further, and it can turn into unfathomable calm. The other variety is an experience of bliss, or great delight, eventually and ultimately in all there is. That's what your true self is made of.

The ultimate adventure. Who needs Star Trek? And yet, the soul, the HM, is a mere spark of the Divine, of Source. The question becomes, what price are you willing to pay to unleash and realize the Divine?

We can see, can we not, that realizing the pure, exquisite Stillness of the HM, where we've withdrawn from mind and body and the life, isn't enough. It's just a necessary first step. We need to add something more positive, more active, yet still universal. As we drew back from all that constitutes our apparent self and supposedly constitutes the universe in which it dwells to something higher and beyond, so we must now repossess our mind, life and body with the all-embracing self-existence, self-consciousness and self-delight of the HM, and ideally even of Source. Not only do we need to come to posses a pure self-existence independent of the world-play, but also possess all existence as our own; not only know ourselves as an infinite consciousness beyond all time and space, but become one with all the outpouring of consciousness and its creative force in time and space.

This is not so easy to do -- unless we have reached the point where a Higher Mind has, in a sense, taken over our mind.
Until such a time, it's by the mind that we have to aim at knowledge and realize our true being, with whatever help he can get from the Divine planes.

What verses from Shakespeare or Schiller or Rumi should we quote to express how the Divine transcends the "normal" human? The Divine is based on and lives by unity, while the "normal" human is based so much on separation and multiplicity, he or she has great difficulty even beginning to see how unity looks "from the inside". The Divine lives in immortality and reaches beyond all time and space; the "normal" human blinds itself to the immortality of its soul so much that that immortality perhaps might as well not exist at all. The Divine's consciousness is infinite, embracing all within it; the "normal" human has a consciousness half-rescued out of unconsciousness and animality, limited by the body and the ego, and relating to other "normal" humans not so much as consciousnesses, but as agents of pleasure or pain or indifference. The Divine understands all, and overflows so much with understanding that every moment it continues to overflow and continue to forever empty its infinite store; the "normal" human lives in ignorance, far greater than he or she "normally" knows, and ignorance which will never be conquered in the piecemeal fashion the ordinary mind and will are forever clumsily and unbalancedly reaching out with.

TraineeHuman

31st May 2014, 16:01

The very notion of "the sameness of all things" may sound like nonsense, or like something not from this universe. And yet it's a big part of how the soul, the HM, sees things. Seeing things that way is also the best way to ensure that when one "travels" or otherwise has experiences OB, one absolutely won't be bothered by hostile or negative energies, as I'll explain below.

Seeing the "sameness" doesn't involve learning to see everything as boring or meaningless, not by any means. Instead, I happen to know it amounts to a summary of all that's involved, in the end, in the bigger part of the true spiritual journey -- regardless of what "brand" of spirituality a person follows -- as long as it is true spirituality and it's taken to the point of major spiritual evolution.

Let's start by considering what the practice of fasting may achieve -- since Cristian mentioned fasting in two recent posts. As I've mentioned, I don't actually advocate fasting because I happen to know that there's psychological danger (i.e. a risk of possible insanity) involved. I've no doubt that risk could be avoided provided one can find ways to stay grounded enough while fasting. Certainly there are breathing exercises which help to ground a person somewhat. There's also, for example, the grounding exercise I suggest of simply sitting for ten minutes, say twice a day, with the palm of one hand resting over the solar plexus (which will happen if one puts one's thumb on the belly button, with the rest of the hand resting horizontal against the body just below).

When a person is fasting, they are learning to no longer be bothered by the absence of food, i.e. to "detach" from all that that drive to satisfy their hunger involves. Certainly this means they're learning to break free, perhaps quite strongly, of being a slave to running towards attraction or comfort on the one hand, and of running away from all pain, or all that's repulsive or difficult, on the other. There's a learning process here, of how to not wince away from pain and not indulge the desire for immediate pleasure, from food at least. Not as some kind of masochism. But because it's the fastest way (I don't mean fasting in particular is the fastest way) to learn to no longer suffer pain without anesthetizing oneself somehow. Rather, one no longer suffers (mostly, emotional) pain through having reached a genuine transcendence and mastery.

The journey to inner "sameness" or "equanimity" or a perception of "equality of all things" is a very long one. It goes through several stages, which I'll describe in my next post. It's also possible to almost complete the journey in one area -- such as work, or relationships -- but not another. In that case, the other area will continue to haunt you throughout your life until you learn to overcome or transcend like/dislike, attraction/repulsion, pleasure/pain, and so on.

Source is present equally in all beings. In that very, very important sense, there is no difference between ourselves and others, the wise and the ignorant, friends and enemies, and so on. We need to reach the point eventually where we hate nobody, despise nobody, and are repelled by nobody. Hatred and dislike and scorn and repulsion, clinging and attachment and preference are natural, necessary, inevitable at certain stages of our development. But eventually they become hindrances to our progress beyond a certain level of ignorance. We have to gradually shed them.

We need to unveil the equality with which our soul already responds, ultimately, to the ugly and the beautiful, the maimed and the perfect, the noble and the vulgar, the pleasant and the unpleasant, the good and the evil. The Divine's ultimate expression is what we must seek and discover behind the transitory expression; undeterred by appearances, by the deficiencies or the disfigurements of the expression, we can then at last see the Divine forever unsullied, pure, beautiful and perfect behind its masks. Only then will we truly be in a position to not accept imperfection and take part in the work towards replacing it with something better. Otherwise, we can destroy the old but our ignorance will keep us from replacing it with something truly greater, something that reflects the Divine.

Seeing the great equality of all things doesn't mean taking on a naivety or blind idealism or blinkers. The Divine has a huge variety of expression, and there is difference everywhere in the universe. But now, for the first time, we will truly appreciate the differences, now no longer one-sidedly. Now love and hate, admiration and scorn, sympathy and antipathy, attraction and repulsion, and so on, will no longer seem to us as essential to how we see this or that particular thing. So too all our successes and defeats, good luck and bad luck, good reputation and bad reputation, and so on.

During OB experience, if we already have at least a certain degree of this outlook of sameness, no negative or hostile energies or beings will be able to bother us, obviously. This will be because to us they will simply seem backhanded expressions of the same Divine as produces the positive energies and beings -- and ultimately the same in origin.

TraineeHuman

3rd June 2014, 01:56

Some description of the stages that come before one truly sees the sameness of all things seems to be needed. In my last post I'd promised to describe the stages of the latter perception, but I'll now leave that for a later post.

In post #1651 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=833463&viewfull=1#post833463) I described one way to pass into what some know as the Witness position, and what others may refer to as a position of "being nothing", or "clarity" or "pure awareness" or whatever. Actually, the exercise in post #24 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=586384&viewfull=1#post586384)also did this, and the exercise in post #114 also. But right now, some more background.

Let's start with the following fact. The mental, emotional, and physical "I" that supposedly governs our lives, and through which we believe we exercise free will or choice, is in reality a puppet of something else. No, not hostile aliens, and only partially a possible puppet of any Hitchhikers etc that may be there. Instead, the "I" we may imagine we are is in reality a (total) puppet of the Witness, that "nothing" which we can learn to be, a la post #1651 or post #24.

So when for example we die, that part of us which had exercised absolutely all the free will, and indeed all the control of our lives, was the Witness, which remains very much alive after physical death. Many have totally misunderstood some things the Buddha said about death. All he meant was that you never were your body or your ordinary mind or your emotions anyway. (By the way, it follows that when "you" have any type of OB experience, who is having that experience isn't your mind or emotions, at all.) As I've said before, we don't in fact think, nor will, nor act ourselves. Rather, thought or will or an impulse or a drive occurs in us. Our body and (ordinary) mind and ego are simply all a wave in an infinite sea. They don't control that sea, but are just the sea's vessels, acting entirely as the sea directs, if you look behind the veils properly. At some point in our spiritual progress we need to experience seeing this directly for ourselves, seeing it as an indisputable fact -- and then giving up much or maybe all of our prior notions of who we are.

There's more. If you believe you are a body-emotions-mind, then your worldview is already full up, so to speak. And anything beyond that unfortunately will seem to you to be "nothing". That's simply because to be "anything" and to be part of "you" it would have to be bodily or emotional or or emotional -- so you believe, and presuppose, without realizing you do. Of course, that other -- the much truer and realer part of you -- isn't nothing, actually.

There's another phenomenon related to this. At a certain point in one's development towards the Light, one reaches a stage where mental ideas and ideals and perspectives and opinions dominate one's view of what spirituality and life means. (Ideally, this stage should come after one has mostly left behind the egoistic indulgence of desires -- though these take ever so long to fully run out their momentum and finally drop off. And when they finally do, you'll probably enjoy, say, a good meal more, not less. Unfortunately, thanks to our education system, this desires stage gets mixed up with the mental one. We should ideally have an education system where most of primary school develops the understanding of emotions and desires and differences in people, leaving the mental side till later.)

The fact is, as one evolves further in awareness, the mental/ideas/opinions stage is replaced by the mind's falling into silence. That silence is far from "nothing". Rather, it contains the flow of intuitive consciousness, intuitive knowledge (which eventually becomes like an open faucet, except that much of it is formless). Most channelers and would-be psychics discover this stage and then attempt to give detailed readings when usually they are still very far away from mastering it, nor from surrendering into the Intelligence in the right way. That's another topic, though.

The mind's falling silent like this doesn't mean that critical analysis is useless, though. Indeed, when combined with a strong intuitive faculty, critical analysis works to raise one's awareness (and kundalini energy) quite strongly and rather quickly. But to the (ordinary) mind, awareness or intuition initially seem like a "nothing". Again, the higher level of functioning/reality seems like "nothing" as long as one (unwittingly) only recognizes the lower.

A further issue, though, is the fact that we use concepts -- and specifically, meanings -- to point to levels of reality or awareness that are far higher than the conceptual level. And there are, indeed, certain concepts or words with meanings tied to them that express what all the levels above the mental are like. Writers/speakers such as Gary Zukav and Tom Campbell, and indeed the late J. Krishnamurti, describe these concepts. For example, all levels beyond the (ordinary) mind are non-local, i.e. they are essentially beyond specific locatability, to mention only one quality.

TraineeHuman

4th June 2014, 15:03

Gracefully giving up "your" ownership of a mental sense of (egoic) "I" is very useful, and a very good idea, once you begin to regularly access the stillness/silence/intuitive knowledge of the HM as distinct from the personality (which tells you: "You are the thing known as Fred Smith"); and as distinct from the "I" governed by ideals and mental opinions and constructions.

In the past I found this to be very confusing, for many years, in many different ways. To give only one example, it ultimately requires pretty much the giving up of any (outward) ethics, in favor of living rightly on the basis of continual direct observation and also of the knowledge or guidance coming from the wordless realms of the soul, the HM -- and ultimately even from the Divine Mind. (The liberated soul continually breaks the rules, but knows how to do so in a constructive and helpful manner.)

Another example is that some of my past spiritual teachers would be operating mostly (no exaggeration!) from knowledge coming from a higher level than the mental, and their ability to communicate verbally, or to hold things in short-term memory, would often or sometimes be poor -- certainly poorer than average. This was because they relied so much, in their lives, on knowledge from "higher", that they tended to neglect using their ordinary mind sometimes when it would have been more practical or helpful to do so. Better to cut off one hand and stay more fully in the Kingdom of Heaven, I guess, than to keep both hands and thereby manage to forget that one of those "hands" is just a puppet controlled by what's higher and by the real you.

One such teacher, for example, would insist time after time that I already knew the answer to most questions I asked him. I found that very frustrating. In retrospect his point, though, no doubt was that I needed to learn to rely more on the knowledge coming from my HM, since I already had constant contact with that -- however vague I sometimes considered its contents to be. In my case I had to learn to know that "I" (in the sense of my soul) knew accurate answers to my lower mind's questions. many would-be psychics wrongly assume that they know that they know accurately at that "silent" level, when in fact they only have irregular access that's often too much sullied by their egoic mind. It happened that in my case I did have the trustworthy access, but needed to learn to greatly trust it at all times. And what an unbelievably long journey it turned out to be, in my case, to learn and fully apply that trust.

As I've said before, for me today the chief value of OB travel in the astral or mental realms is to access certain knowledge there. But the access is carried out by the soul operating from its level, much as the soul accesses knowledge applying to the physical world of everyday life.

Another of my teachers would criticize me because I was trying to teach myself to be a clairvoyant reader of people (anywhere, almost randomly) by "entering" their space effectively as if I temporarily was the same as their soul. She criticized me for this firstly because, she said, it was a case of not minding my own business. As far as I could see, at the time, this issue of privacy seemed somewhat phoney, as long as I had no hostile or interfering intentions towards the person I was clairvoyantly "probing". After all, wasn't it the case that their physical, emotional and mental "I" was in fact just a wave in a sea and totally determined and controlled by their formless soul (plus the machine-like operation of the forces of Nature)? If I was simply reading their physical, emotional and mental part, that was nothing but a puppet of the soul, so how could I be interfering by just watching?

The other concern that teacher had was that by temporarily being "one with" another individual in that way, I was opening myself up to the danger of taking on some of their "karma", through identifying with problems/energies they personally had that I also didn't know how to fully resolve, or that were in an area I hadn't had experience of. That is indeed a major question: how to know how, and when, to keep from identifying with another's problems and traps and yet understand their situation fully? How, in the interests of giving empathy, to detach one self so fully from the outer active personality, from blind absorption in its life measured out in coffee spoons?

animovado

5th June 2014, 09:50

Thanks TH, I like this last post very much.

That is indeed a major question: how to know how, and when, to keep from identifying with another's problems and traps and yet understand their situation fully? How, in the interests of giving empathy, to detach one self so fully from the outer active personality, from blind absorption in its life measured out in coffee spoons?

Is this a rhetorical question?

TraineeHuman

6th June 2014, 14:32

That is indeed a major question: how to know how, and when, to keep from identifying with another's problems and traps and yet understand their situation fully? How, in the interests of giving empathy, to detach one self so fully from the outer active personality, from blind absorption in its life measured out in coffee spoons?

Is this a rhetorical question?

No, that was a sincere question, animovado. I have always believed in sincerity and done my best to practice it. I believe it's essential to true inner freedom. 'This above all things: to thine own self be true, and it follows as night follows day, thou canst not be false to any man." Why complicate things by deliberately ever being false, whether to others or to yourself?

Even if the HM has fully completed the descension process into the whole physical body of a person, that won't save them from the possibility of getting entangled somewhat with the "karma" of another if they get involved enough in seeking to help liberate that person from their problems. I suspect that once Source has completed full descension into the body, this no longer applies. There may also be periods of such immunity before that extraordinary stage is reached. I do know that well before such a stage one can temporarily become kind of "lost", for a period, in a wonderful void. That's also what happens, for example, during the initial stage of stably and constantly seeing the sameness of all things. It can also happen before that, and perhaps to a lesser degree, but much immunity from entanglement in others' "karma" can still be there, in my experience.

It's interesting to contrast what I consider very much the preferable form of psychic healing with most other helping/healing activities. Some misguided psychic healers essentially absorb all the client's negative energies into themselves, like some kind of psychic vacuum cleaner -- and eventually end up with an energy field loaded with the black or brown colors of negative energies. The correct way to do psychic healing, as I understand it, is to communicate HM to HM. I do find it also seems necessary to allow a certain quantity of surplus life-energy/electricity to flow out of my body to the client's. But it does so via the HM, in the sense that my HM, being non-local (i.e., having no location), somehow connects with the client's HM, and then sends that life-energy into the energy field of their body somehow. However, my understanding is that it's simply -- and primarily -- the communication between the HMs that causes the healing to happen -- or, rather, the client's body being healed by their own HM as a result of my HM having made a healing-type connection. When psychic healers do healing work in this way, they don't seem to get any "karmic" entanglement with the client's problems. Presumably that's because such healing is operating at an HM to HM level.

On the other hand, anyone who works with clients in the conventional helping/healing professions tends to experience stress and extra negative emotion as a byproduct, no matter how skillful they may be at staying professionally detached. I suspect this is inevitable as long as such individuals are relating to the clients' physical/emotional/mental issues rather than purely to their HMs. And that's the problem I was referring to at the end of my previous post.

TraineeHuman

7th June 2014, 03:38

The soul is infinite, and formless. Anything that is formless has the ability to take on forms as well. But forms don't extend into higher worlds, except in this one, virtual sense.

The individual soul is one special, particular, unique "face" of the more total Infinite, of Source. Each individual's nature possesses its own essential law or way of being. It manifests according to the particular temperament.Not everyone is "built" to be, say, a tightrope walker between the tops of skyscrapers without a net. In this world we are all workers of some kind, and at least sometimes we are effectively servants, as well as lovers and nurturers. But the unique blend of all the things we are and for which we have the greatest passion particularly -- that varies according to a law that is inner. And that cannot be controlled from the outside, though the influence of the parents and education are also major conditioning that impacts how the soul expresses itself in this particular lifetime.

But beyond the soul's lowest or "normal" level there is a fuller infinity or two, of greater freedom, and of life with no boundaries. There, the soul becomes free to use anything but there is no "user pays" principle, no attachment, no identification, no footprints left behind anywhere. Have you ever experienced a major glimpse -- even a tiny glimpse -- of omniscience? Not as some fantasy or some mental extension, but something real? That is a glimpse of what the soul is capable of becoming permanently. Or have you ever experienced a God-driven action that was an irresistible impulse to action that came to you spontaneously and beautifully and ever so effortlessly? Have you ever held a small piece of omniscience, or of some certain kind of omnipotence, securely in the palm of your hand, fully contained, in calmness and complete certainty of what you had?

animovado

7th June 2014, 21:11

I didn't want to allege insincerity.
Sometimes we know the answer, but ask the question and it's
a good and sincere contribution to a discourse.

I suspect this is inevitable as long as such individuals are relating to the clients' physical/emotional/mental issues rather than purely to their HMs.

Yes, the Highest Mind is whole and therefore the healer.

Don't you think that the idea of individuality is nothing but
a divine joke and we've forgotten to laugh about?
Even the term "individuality" itself makes no sense to me, it seems
to be an oxymoron.

TraineeHuman

8th June 2014, 01:42

Don't you think that the idea of individuality is nothing but
a divine joke and we've forgotten to laugh about?
Even the term "individuality" itself makes no sense to me, it seems
to be an oxymoron.

What does one mean by "individuality"? I claim that once we will realize Source we will add something unique to Source, and continue to add something unique to it forever. If what I claim is true, then in that sense we never lose some essence of individuality.

On the other hand, some of the things that "individuality" means, for the average person at least, are egoic, and are illusory when seen from the perspective of Source. One example of that is freedom to choose. An individual who reaches a certain level of enlightenment does always "voluntarily" give up the "freedom" to choose, in favor of a kind of surrender to the Divine will. But the truth is, we usually have way too insufficient information on which to base most "free" choices, so while (or to the extent that) we are living at an egoic level our choices are bound to be wrong choices anyway. The only way we could obtain the level of information and knowledge needed in most cases would be by direct access to the Divine Mind. And before we can obtain that, we need to surrender our life to the soul, the HM. Although its knowledge isn't as complete as that which the Divine Mind brings, it's still superior to what our "free will" decisions are based on. So, we can "freely choose" to give up "free choice" by opting for the "prison" of the best possible "I".

It's quite philosophically challenging to try to communicate what's involved here. In this thread I've already tried in detail to make it very clear, in a number of different ways, that the essence of the ego's perception is to see itself as an object, and reality as also made of objects. Because of this, it's a person's ego that's covertly fighting against their being able to understand what reality would look like if objects were seen as derivative or illusory. Rejection of seeing the world through "object-colored glasses" would be a rejection of the ego's whole point of view. (By the way, it's impossible to suffer unless one in some way adopts the point of view of being an object.)

Another example of a philosophical issue relevant to understanding what various senses of "individuality" might really be or mean is the concept of change. We actually know that the body's cells all get replaced within days or within seven years at the most. Strictly speaking, then, we aren't the same person we were seven years ago. Similarly, if I change or part of me changes into someone better, then aren't I "losing" at least part of me -- or even the whole me if the change for the better is radical enough? In such a change for the better, isn't my very individuality itself being changed, perhaps radically?

TraineeHuman

8th June 2014, 05:12

Don't you think that the idea of individuality is nothing but
a divine joke and we've forgotten to laugh about?
Even the term "individuality" itself makes no sense to me, it seems
to be an oxymoron.

The meaning of individuality has close connections with the meaning of separation. In the physical world there is, or appears to be, quite a strong degree of separation. We use the term "objects" to describe the things that are separate, or that move independently. (Actually, traditional physics is based on blindly pretending that "empty" space is also very object-like.) There is also some similar but less rigid separation in the magnetic (astral) world, and again, similarly but to a lesser degree again in the electric (mental) world.

In all higher planes/worlds beyond that, separation in the sense we usually think of it does fade away more and more the closer to Source you get. However, non-separation doesn't mean that everything gets kind of mixmaster blended and glued together into some one-flavor cosmic soup, at all. It's in many ways quite the opposite of that! If you think of each higher level as being more positively constructive than the one below it, it's a matter of having more and more "space" to be positively and powerfully creative the higher you go.

One of the big problems for us, in this great cosmic experiment of Source's in how dense and estranged a world it can create, is that we spend our lives in matrixes which tell us that whatever we're not specifically aware of doesn't exist. But the truth is, there is, for example, a Oneness without which anything else could not exist, because that is the glue that holds everything together, in certain ways.

Another problem is that -- trust me -- it's conceptually much, much neater and conundrum-free to think of individuality as an individual slant or point of view (on the entire multiverse!), instead of as being a separate, alienated object that only accidentally interacts with any other object at all. (Actually there are even more superior -- more accurate -- ways to describe what you are than that, but they are all even further in the same direction. And I'd have to give you a course in metaphysics.)

So, for now let's say that who/what you are is a unique slant -- or a unique point of view -- of or from the entire multiverse. Still utterly unique, yet also utterly universal, for those with the "eyes" to see directly.

animovado

8th June 2014, 12:56

animovado

8th June 2014, 13:22

TraineeHuman

9th June 2014, 02:20

I claim that once we will realize Source we will add something unique to Source, and continue to add something unique to it forever. If what I claim is true, then in that sense we never lose some essence of individuality.

If i could add something to divine perfection, wouldn't that mean that there's imperfection and therefore nothing is whole?
Or is it already added and there's just this exhausting resistance left, that I hold onto the delusional idea of my "private universe", my "big bang"?

Let's just say that the universe is a (completely interconnected) unity, but it's also more than a unity. That's the truth, but the trouble is, we're pushing language, and ordinary reason, beyond their limits here. We need to add direct experience, direct insight and understanding to the mix.

One thing that's undeniable is that humanity is living in imperfection. Suffering, conflict, limitation, error, ignorance, -- and you can write in whatever else that should go on this list. How can all this imperfection be perfectly designed, so to speak? One might ask why, or how, doesn't this disprove the existence of Source? As you say.

One point I would make in reply to that question is that conflict and so on is indeed a perfect expression of what inevitably happens as long as one's consciousness is limited. Even Source itself can't change that. Source can't stop one plus one from making two. The limited consciousness does indeed need to experience a certain degree of imperfection -- hopefully as little as possible -- in order to truly wake up to where it is at, and understand how great the need for self-transformation, self-perfection is.

Another point is that all these limited things seem crazy or meaningless when we look at them by themselves, but not so when we see the full big picture. Not when we clearly understand their place and significance in a complete view of the universe and its workings -- which, paradoxically, only Source has, or someone sufficiently in touch with Source.

The existence of all the egos and all the limited perceivers in the universe is evidence not of "less" but of "more". That is, it's evidence of the infinite nature of Source. Notice, though, again, that every infinity, even Source, does have certain bounds or limits on it in some respects. There's no such thing as being unlimited in every possible sense.

I could go on for pages exploring in many directions and depths here, but let's get back to the rest of the questions you raised, animovado. Because I am a part of Source, if I rise to perfection, or even partial perfection, then Source, being the whole, will indeed be added to. Prior to that, my imperfection will be perfectly necessary.

TraineeHuman

11th June 2014, 10:16

The ordinary mind eventually finds itself silenced, and quite overpowered by the force of something beyond it. At first Stillness, Silence.

But later on, that Silence flowers. And flowers, with a beauty that's beyond ecstatic. Then the emptiness, that void, begins to fill. It fills with an Infinite that's packed full of activity, that's unbounded in every direction, inside of everything.

Teka (Highwhistler) talked about Presence. That's what the Infinite now becomes. Present. All around you. All around your body, your home, your workplace, every tree, every piece of furniture, every person, every building. The Presence becomes "present". In everything. In your body, your everything -- and everywhere else. There is nothing in heaven or earth more beautiful. No exaggeration. (But can you then eventually go on to see all that's ugly as being God too? Well, that comes later.)

The Presence becomes the foreground, and everything and everyone else is background. It's as if everything had become hollow, with the Presence flowing through it everywhere. Although the Presence is the true Oneness, and it makes all things the same, it's anything but boring, and it's ever so multipronged instead.

That's what the sameness of all things feels like and looks like. I just wanted to make that clear before going any further.

TraineeHuman

12th June 2014, 10:12

God didn't create the world. Instead, "He" literally became the world, at least according to the Taittiriya Upanishad:

"He became knowledge and ignorance. He became the truth and also the falsehood."

We have to look directly and unblinkingly at reality just as it is, right here, in this "fallen" world. That is certainly where we will most easily see God, or Source, if at all. There is no such thing as an unbridgeable chasm between Source's nature and the nature of the world around us. Source is ultimately "to blame" for the uglines and the evil of the world we see. For Source has its grand designs and ultimate purposes, and this world is the means by which it is ultimately achieving them.

Source (well, the Divine Mind, which is its active "face") does not stand aloof, as many would imagine. To quote Swami Krishnananda:

"Pure Knowledge is not an act, for it is not independent of that which is to be known."

My point is that to transcend polarity and duality doesn't just mean to bask in some heavenly state of super-unity. Instead, it also means, equally, to see Source as ultimately the one to "blame" for all the suffering, all the lies and deceits and superficialities and ignorance etc. Source doesn't create reality (didn't "create the world") according to our ideas of perfection, but according to its own understanding. That is an understanding of the totality, the ultimately biggest picture. The cosmic game isn't over at quarter time.

The "ethics" by which Source works are inclusive and expansive, covering all beings under their umbrella. The statement attributed to Jesus that: "Narrow is the gate and difficult the path that leads to eternal life, and few there be that find it" does have a point. But it may be out of place for the genuine spiritual seeker in our times, because a perfection that eliminates almost everything would contain not very much that was left over. Therefore it probably wouldn't be a worthwhile perfection anyway.

This universe is very much a work in progress. We have to "eat the meal" though it's still mostly uncooked.

And the human race has barely wiped the muddiness of Matter out of its eyes, to clearly see more than the trappings of Matter and materialism and semi-animality. What does the average person today know of the re-activated power and the dazzlingly bright dawnings that may lie ahead, in the Divine's wondrous plan?

"Thou art That." This is the most central "secret" of all. But why should it be a secret, or at least not for you? What do intelligent, discerning Christians suppose Jesus was really talking about when he (presumably) said things like: "I and my Father are one", or : "If you do it to the least of these brethren, you do it to me"? And even, dare I ask, by: "This is my body and my blood"?

TraineeHuman

14th June 2014, 21:19

We gradually discover that "Thou art That", though we certainly don't describe it in such sublime terms at first. What happens is as follows. Once we've opened the doors to our soul a little, and seen at least a glimpse of the (dazzlingly big) bigger picture, our spirit becomes more and more dissatisfied with the narrow confines of our personality, of playing the role of being only the personality known as Fred Smith.

The soul soon feels more and more dissatisfied with being anything less than huge and powerful -- even universal.

And there are some simple ways to begin to open those doors. One is simply to be total in whatever you do -- or at least in some major, important area, such as the work you do or your role as a parent or spouse or close friend, or maybe in some major hobby you have passion for. We should totally give "away" all our attention, to whatever we are doing. That isn't giving away our soul at all, as it turns out.

These days we see sporting stars being overpaid ridiculously large amounts. And although many competition sports feature aggression or force, the most successful quarterbacks etc etc are clearly the ones who operate masterfully from their intuition, their soul. Certainly, competition sports are mock-warfare at some symbolic and psychological levels. They thereby serve the ruling elite's desire to continue the glorification of aggression and violence and competitiveness. But even in the thick of such mock "battlefields", the athletes who manage to be total are the ones -- are they not? -- who make the sport entertaining to watch, and unpredictable.

We all need to learn to express totality, because ultimately, miraculously, we are Totality -- but only by being total will we gradually discover that this is so.

This is the great Force that, in a veiled form, drives the flowers to bloom, and causes animals to propagate. People say: "Love makes the world go 'round." Well, fine. It's true that Being, existence itself, is made out of love -- plus consciousness/understanding. But by being total we make contact with our sun (astrologically, but also more profoundly than that). We make contact with the center, the still point, around which we revolve. Later we'll also discover that it's not just one point, but it exists at all points, wherever we go. That comes later, though.

We had supposed we were tiny, and quite disconnected from all other beings. That illusion of great separateness, even alienation, was necessary for us to grow in consciousness while safe in that shell. Through believing that there is such a thing as a "world out there", we learnt a sense of what it means to be individually and separately conscious -- of "me against the world".

But that "me against the world" point of view just happens to be the root of all suffering. Now it's time to be grown up enough to appreciate that everything comes to "us" from outside -- but the "outside" isn't against "me" at all. Not only that, but to appreciate that what lies within "me" is somehow greater than "me" -- any "me", that is, that pits itself "against the world out there".

TraineeHuman

16th June 2014, 03:57

Another problem is that -- trust me -- it's conceptually much, much neater and conundrum-free to think of individuality as an individual slant or point of view (on the entire multiverse!), instead of as being a separate, alienated object that only accidentally interacts with any other object at all. (Actually there are even more superior -- more accurate -- ways to describe what you are than that, but they are all even further in the same direction. And I'd have to give you a course in metaphysics.)

Yes, that's a more appropriate definition of "individuality".
We can find very nice metaphors for the understanding of interconnectivity and interpenetration in the teachings of Huayen-Budism (http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/articles/huayan_buddhism_and_the_flower_ornament_sutra) of Fazang and its "Golden Lion" and "Hall of mirrors".
These philosophies are leading to a non-dualistic view of our world, like Advaita-Vedanta for example, too. But maybe one can make a difference between non-dualism
and pure non-dualism.
Many teachers pointed that out and it seems that they had to deal with that.

"As the eighth century Chan master ****ou (Sekito in Japanese) declared, "Merging with sameness is still not enlightenment." Seeing the oneness of the Universal is only half of the practice, if that. The relevance of this insight must be realized and expressed in the realm of the relative particularities and diversities of our world."
(source (http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/articles/huayan_buddhism_and_the_flower_ornament_sutra) there you can read his fully chinese name also (laughter))

And there we are, arriving at your question from post #1665

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

The word "enlightenment" is used to mean different things. In some traditions there's a name for the stage where one truly sees, and then permanently remembers, the sameness of all things -- and sees the sameness as an Intelligence that's all-pervasive and is "nothing-ness". In Zen, for instance, this is called kensho. In that tradition it's also emphasized that this realization isn't the most important one.

Rather, there's something called satori, which typically takes years if not decades to achieve after one has reached kensho. (Satori is what I would call full descension of the HM, and involves bringing bliss and peace into one's everyday life.) I guess that's the point the writer you quoted was alluding to in saying that "sameness is not Enlightenment". The word "enlightenment" is also sometimes used to mean nothing less than divinity, or perfection. (This is what I would describe as full descension of the Divine Mind into the body.) I prefer to call the kensho stage the lowest level of enlightenment, and I agree with the writer that getting to the kensho stage is certainly less than half the journey. The good news, though, is that as one evolves more -- even a little --, it's possible to progress further more quickly than it was before.

But your point, animovado, that it's only half of the ultimate journey, if that, eloquently explains in a nutshell why the first stage of stably and permanently realizing (not just now and then glimpsing or stepping into) the Oneness of all things -- which I would describe as some stage of satori -- is one where one becomes seemingly indifferent and uninvolved with regard to everything in ordinary life. This shouldn't be so surprising -- in spite of all I've said in some recent posts regarding the overcoming of a separative point of view. Because one kind of gets dazed by the hugeness of the overall view, sort of like an animal getting dazed by the brightness of a car's headlights when it sees them in their full brightness. This isn't a state of apathy, though, despite the aloofness. I guess in some ways the aloofness also applies less intensely to when one reaches the earlier stage, the kensho stage, and it applies at certain other points in the journey too.

Following kensho, in my observation and experience one typically undergoes enormous anxiety at a superficial level, an "existential" anxiety at having to cope with the falseness of the trap one now more clearly sees others and oneself to be in. One is caught in the disparity between the flowing, harmonious, very peaceful world within, and the arbitrary and chaotic external world, a world one is initially tempted not to take seriously.

I have lived through decades of being accused by some (but not all) people who believed they understood a lot about spirituality or higher development, of being "too detached", or other similar terms. (But not any more, these days, at last.) Little did these individuals realize, I believe, that that was a long stage they themselves would have to live through, I believe more fully than they had so far. On the other hand, I had such a strong constant sense of it, and had certainly seen it so vividly in exalted experiences, that somehow I knew deep inside that it was the truth, even if the whole world should insist I was mistaken.

Libico

18th June 2014, 18:13

I haven’t been as active with recording my experiences as of late, but something seemed to compel to get out of bed and write this, so I thought that made it significant enough to share here. The below is free text written immediately after waking up with a few minor corrections/relevant additions for the sake of clarity.

Lucid dream that started off with a big power struggle – was lying in bed in my old childhood house where I was asleep in bed with my wife and feeling strong pains in my back. I woke her up to see if she would feel anything as it wasn’t ordinary vibrations or ordinary back pains, but also slightly painful. I didn’t relent, and realized 100% I was dreaming when one of the walls phased into a closed closet door with a towel hanging off the handle – I laughed at the pain saying it had to do better than that if it wanted to scare me (I used to be scared of closet doors as a young child with Zuul* nightmares), and the door disappeared. I was still in my bedroom. There were a few jumbled dreams at some point during this (driving in a car with friends, deftly weaving in and out of traffic on crowded streets), but I kept returning to the room after each minor dream, whereas after the last dream sequence I seemed to be alone.

I overcame the back pain/sensation (my mind associated it with the Zuul pain, but at this point it was completely tolerable). At this point I had unsuccessfully tried to initiate an OBE as I used to in my lucid dream state, and now I stood up and yelled out “Enough! You are wasting my time! (This is an opportunity to meet my higher self)” – quoted text in parenthesis is the gist of what I said but can’t remember exactly. Almost immediately I felt the sensation disappear and I began floating up through the wall to blackness.

I find myself with a small hairless dog creature (my mind sees it as a small helpless Zuul) and my wife. We are in a room of some sort with a hallway to either side, each having a staircase up or down. We go up one level and experience something that is harmless to us all and Zuul devours (can’t recall it actually eating anything but that was the purpose). Next we go up a level and find another entity that seems to devour Zuul and leaves a puddle of liquid after. Knowing I am next if we continue up another level (and then my wife – who seems to be something else but dons the shell of my wife) I stop her and tell it’s been fun but I think it’s time I move on, all in a good manner. I even grin at her if she will feed me to the next one how will I feed her to the entity on the floor above? I notice that my two sons are here, with the older (3 yrs) leaning on the wall to my right. I tell wife and kids that I love them but need to leave. I notice that wife has taken a small Tupperware container and put a miniature Zuul inside (smaller than the one from before – maybe it shrunk? ) and stuff it a rucksack she is carrying. I call out to it in order to get its attention and it sticks it head slightly out of the top of the container with ears raised. I tell it that I love it too and vanish.

I find myself back in my room and look down at my feet and imagine myself floating up slowly, determined to meet my higher self. I pass through the ceiling, and the sky, and atmosphere – it all happens relatively slowly but the feeling I get is that I was passing through levels of something (barriers that were blocking me that my mind interpreted as ceiling, sky, etc). I keep looking down as I pass through these and close my eyes but I can see slight changes in light through closed eyelids between each level. I soon come to a level which is very bright (through closed eyelids) and I can hear relaxing music being played, sort of a single note being played continuously. I can occasionally see many green and yellow bow-tie like shapes appear in my mind in random flashes , but the brightness of the place stands out more than anything. I opened my eyes slightly but the light was almost overpowering – it didn’t hurt at all but I couldn’t see anything anyway and it seemed to make sense to close my eyes again. I suddenly hear an English woman’s voice (not natural, almost like a computer console) say “Where are you from?” I try to project “Earth” and get no response. I say “Earth” but I feel like the word won’t come out of my mouth. “I am from Earth”, but again the words won’t seem to come out, like I have extreme difficulty talking. I get no response to anything I attempt to say but the music is constant and very soothing. I suddenly remember I didn’t ask for any protection of any kind during this experience – I quickly ask my HS for protection and to only be allowed to connect with positive entities. I didn’t feel in danger at all as I went into this with a positive state of mind, but the lack of response after several attempts of communicating with the woman made me slightly wary. I didn’t feel the hasty request for protection was enough so I attempted to wake myself up. Generally I would be able to wake myself up more or less instantaneously from my nightmare days, and in this case I felt it took some time to actually wake up – again not in a scary way but it was interesting. There was no shooting back to my body sensation, just waking up with a strong urge to write this experience down.

*For people who aren’t familiar with my background, Zuul was my childhood nightmare figure that when appearing in dreams would scare me and cause me to feel immense pain in my back prompting me to wake up. Still have occasional dreams/near sleep episodes – fear is gone but back pain is still there. The occasions that happen nowadays I probe the feeling to try and discover the root of it, usually until the pain gets too intense and I wake myself up, or I manage to overcome and move towards a lucid dream or OBE.

TraineeHuman

21st June 2014, 07:30

We can find very nice metaphors for the understanding of interconnectivity and interpenetration in the teachings of Huayen-Budism (http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/articles/huayan_buddhism_and_the_flower_ornament_sutra) of Fazang and its "Golden Lion" and "Hall of mirrors".
These philosophies are leading to a non-dualistic view of our world, like Advaita-Vedanta for example, too.
There are two types of awareness: conscious focus, and seeing "the" big picture. At the exact time you made the post quoting the above link, animovado, I wrote down a draft of most of this post. The text in the link you referred to talks of awareness of the particular and the universal, but I think that amounts to much the same thing.

To jump for a moment to a closely related topic: in this thread I've talked about how there are two types of knowledge. And how the type greatly neglected in Western society is knowledge through oneness (with), knowledge through (having an awareness of) identity (with). Focus is normally separative, but a greater degree of oneness involves gaining knowledge through the removal of separation.

Curiously, oneness-with is always carried out by going deeper within (which can certainly include awareness of what your body is saying from inside it also). Contrary to the standard assumption, we can find more of the universe, more fully and easily, by going further and further within.

The physical plane is the world of greater (external) focus and greater specificness than in any plane higher than it. This is one reason why I have a big problem with people claiming they can astral project by or through "focusing". For instance, I would say: "Go to your Higher Self/Mind" might more accurately be rephrased as something like: "Let go (of your limitations) and gently "osmose" into a state of non-separative awareness -- which you may notice is there within you". After all, most Western people don't have a clue what "the Higher Self" means. And even better informed Westerners may have trouble distinguishing that from their ordinary mind, in practice. The astral worlds are the worlds where focus is a little bit fuzzier than in the physical. Admittedly, in the lowest astral levels the landscape looks almost the same as in the physical, but energy and emotions flow much more freely there, and more intensely. Of course, if one were to truly be co-conscious of/with one's Higher Self, one would already be in a formless place, which is where the Higher Self effectively operates from.

But to say you are giving yourself a "command" to force yourself to experience a less separative state -- that doesn't make sense, it seems to me. If "you" have to command stupid, passive "you" to do something, then the second "you" must be different from the first. That means creating more separation instead of less. Greater separativeness is the exact opposite direction from the one where you'll find your Higher Self, surely? I'm not denying some manage to do it in what seems to be an impossible way and certainly a very hard way. Hats off to them. But what if someone is a beginner?

TraineeHuman

21st June 2014, 07:37

Libico, isn't it amazing how hugely powerful the mind is -- particularly when the ordinary mind greatly magnifies its power by drawing on the imaginative power of the Higher Mind, but without standing aside and letting the Higher Mind take over? I'm very glad to hear, though, that you managed to make the back pains disappear eventually. I've been there too -- allowing imagined illusions to create supposedly huge obstacles for me, for a time.

My internet access is currently down at home, but I'll be making more comments in response to your post.

TraineeHuman

22nd June 2014, 03:38

People often develop a craving for foods that they're allergic to, and I'm wondering if something analogous might be relevant to your back pain, Libico. Apparently the craving happens because such food creates enormous imbalance in the body, so the body responds to that emergency by bringing out emergency reserves of its hormones and antibodies and so on. What then tends to happen, on a mostly subconscious level, is that the mind (and, effectively, the ego) concludes that it can entice all those organic healing chemicals tailor-made for and by one's body, simply by continuing to eat that food. Hence an addictive cycle -- and one decides they just love to eat french fries or whatever it is.

I suggest one possible explanation for why you continue to feel that pain, Libico, might be something analogous in relation to astral projection, as follows. Normally, feeling pain when one is astral projecting or in the process of getting out of the body, means one is doing something the wrong way. In your case, then, perhaps you were aware enough to notice (subconsciously?) that part of you would bring up enormous reserves of healing or awareness each time you exited, or half-exited, the wrong way?

One example of a similar experience I once had was with a teacher who taught psychic development mostly, but had spent six full years in ashrams in India spending moist of her waking hours meditating. One day she announced she would check if everyone in the class knew how to meditate properly. Fair point, since I find that most Westerners don't know how to properly "let go", even if they have attended meditation classes for some period.

She certainly had the clairvoyant skill to "read" what was going on inside each member of the class. I felt uncomfortable at doing the exercise to meditate, though, because she played a CD of some New Age music intended to assist beginners at meditation to concentrate and relax better and hence meditate. The music was played loud enough, however, to distract me from meditating properly, though no-one else in the class found it distracting. She pointed out that I wasn't doing proper meditation. I replied this was because I found the background noise distracting and in its own way irritating. What I also felt inside was a very strong knowing that my distraction and irritation somehow had a very positive, healing side to it -- no doubt somewhat like the allergy addiction I've described above. Fortunately, in this case the combined power of her and my awareness and healing skills enabled me to ignore the background music on my next attempt.

But I knew clearly that I would otherwise have been capable of continued distraction accompanied by a strong sense that my distraction brought in something very positive. This might have continued for a long time, given different circumstances. Such are the subtle tricks the (ordinary) mind can play.

lizfrench

22nd June 2014, 03:41

TraineeHuman

22nd June 2014, 05:29

I need some advice bout OBE's. It seems my 20 year-old son is experiencing them pretty regularly unintensionally. He will wake up and see himself for a moment or two hovering over him then his spirit/soul will quickly jump into his body. Any time he realizes during his sleep that he is floating he his immediately afraid and jumps back in. Also he is having some really (what I consider) bizarre dreams about the future. I told him to try to control the dreams while in them but he claims he cannot. The dreams are of him in a very futuristic city where the rich control the poor (sounds familiar), he is being chased and ultimately captured, not killed, and forced to ride a small ship with 2 passengers, where they are pushed off of a tall building and have to navigate it without crashing to the ground. The dreams are so lucid he has killed someone... seen red blood, colors are very vivid and people are wearing white clothing. He is a pretty tough kid for the most part, can hold his own, wrestled, considers himself a good fighter, etc. I would like to help him control his OBE experiences or learn to navigate them without fear. Any advice of what books or vids to watch regarding people who have experienced OBEs like this?

Hi Liz. Very sorry to hear your son feels distressed. Firstly, the ability to see the future accurately is very, very rare indeed. Those extraordinary individuals who are able to do it to some degree, I understand they can control their dreams (and their astral projections) masterfully, to say the least. (And unless your son is a master at meditation or at some other psychic ability than astral projection, I suggest it's equally certain he's not seeing or entering some parallel civilisation etc etc. Been there, done that myself in so many different ways, mostly when I was in my twenties or thirties -- but I'd already reached some extreme heights in meditation years before that.) So, I'm 100% certain your son isn't seeing the actual, or most probable, future. Rather, I suggest that what he sees should be taken symbolically or allegorically, and totally with reference to his own psyche, and his past traumas (we all experience traumas in our earlyish childhood) and the present problems in his life.

It's 100% certain that issues to do with violence are worrying his soul at present. Mostly this will be to do with violence
in the way he treats himself. He therefore needs help in learning to like himself and accept himself, just the way he is. That's so important. A skilful counselor may be able to help. Though I'd be wary of any counselor who's fond of a "cognitive behavioral" or "behavior modification" approach.

Your question of how he can learn not to go into fear when he wakes up to find he's hovering above his physical body probably has no quick solution. In this thread we've said a number of times that if a person finds being out of their body frightening, it's because they already carry and nurture fear inside them -- and that already existing fear can get triggered by the unfamiliarity of the experience/(OB)environment.

As you imply, at least partly the fear may be overcome by doing a course on astral projection. Robert Bruce's course might be suitable. (You could email sway -- she's done it, and would have details, though I believe she's been having a baby about now.) There's also Eckankar, who operate in major cities in many countries and (I think) charge very little or nothing. I'm impressed by their level of knowledge and by how they seem to operate. (You might try the internet to find contact details).

Maybe, if possible, it would be really great if you can limit your son's exposure to violent video games (is there any other kind?) and violent movies and TV shows. Obviously, all of that is conditioning him to "think violent" more, including at subliminal levels. So many movies feature violence too, of course, and sports like football.

lizfrench

22nd June 2014, 06:25

Ah, thank you Traineehuman, what you are saying definitely resonates. The dreams do occur after he has spent a night in front of the Call of Duty game, and I mentioned that to him. I have searched the book shelves at the library for astral projection to no avail so I am going online to see what I can find. I think his biggest problem is managing his own energy, there needs to be some centering, maybe the OBE's are his spirit's way of helping him connect to and find himself.

Libico

24th June 2014, 06:11

Appreciate your insights as always TH.

One of the reasons I stopped consciously trying to have OBE is because I felt I had done everything I was able to at that point. I had read a lot of theory, put a lot into practice, but I had hit a wall of sorts where I now needed time to digest the information and experience before actively trying again with such fervor. Based on my history this is how my mind works and I've come to realize and not fight it. For example, when learning stick shift I was constantly throwing the clutch too early and stalling even when I knew how to drive. After I took a 1 month break from driving completely I got in the car and was driving perfectly without stalling a single time - I knew everything I needed to know, I just needed time for my mind to sort everything.

Most of my recent OBE or OBE attempts have happened organically since then, with 50-70% of them having the recurring pain. It's quite possible I'm doing something inefficiently, but I do feel like the stronger episodes of pain have significantly decreased as of late - I guess I do like to learn things the hard way, but if this is the cause of the pain I do feel like I am improving.

People often develop a craving for foods that they're allergic to, and I'm wondering if something analogous might be relevant to your back pain, Libico. Apparently the craving happens because such food creates enormous imbalance in the body, so the body responds to that emergency by bringing out emergency reserves of its hormones and antibodies and so on. What then tends to happen, on a mostly subconscious level, is that the mind (and, effectively, the ego) concludes that it can entice all those organic healing chemicals tailor-made for and by one's body, simply by continuing to eat that food. Hence an addictive cycle -- and one decides they just love to eat french fries or whatever it is.

I suggest one possible explanation for why you continue to feel that pain, Libico, might be something analogous in relation to astral projection, as follows. Normally, feeling pain when one is astral projecting or in the process of getting out of the body, means one is doing something the wrong way. In your case, then, perhaps you were aware enough to notice (subconsciously?) that part of you would bring up enormous reserves of healing or awareness each time you exited, or half-exited, the wrong way?

One example of a similar experience I once had was with a teacher who taught psychic development mostly, but had spent six full years in ashrams in India spending moist of her waking hours meditating. One day she announced she would check if everyone in the class knew how to meditate properly. Fair point, since I find that most Westerners don't know how to properly "let go", even if they have attended meditation classes for some period.

She certainly had the clairvoyant skill to "read" what was going on inside each member of the class. I felt uncomfortable at doing the exercise to meditate, though, because she played a CD of some New Age music intended to assist beginners at meditation to concentrate and relax better and hence meditate. The music was played loud enough, however, to distract me from meditating properly, though no-one else in the class found it distracting. She pointed out that I wasn't doing proper meditation. I replied this was because I found the background noise distracting and in its own way irritating. What I also felt inside was a very strong knowing that my distraction and irritation somehow had a very positive, healing side to it -- no doubt somewhat like the allergy addiction I've described above. Fortunately, in this case the combined power of her and my awareness and healing skills enabled me to ignore the background music on my next attempt.

But I knew clearly that I would otherwise have been capable of continued distraction accompanied by a strong sense that my distraction brought in something very positive. This might have continued for a long time, given different circumstances. Such are the subtle tricks the (ordinary) mind can play.

TraineeHuman

25th June 2014, 06:13

I find myself with a small hairless dog creature (my mind sees it as a small helpless Zuul) and my wife. We are in a room of some sort with a hallway to either side, each having a staircase up or down. We go up one level and experience something that is harmless to us all and Zuul devours (can’t recall it actually eating anything but that was the purpose). Next we go up a level and find another entity that seems to devour Zuul and leaves a puddle of liquid after. Knowing I am next if we continue up another level (and then my wife – who seems to be something else but dons the shell of my wife) I stop her and tell it’s been fun but I think it’s time I move on, all in a good manner. I even grin at her if she will feed me to the next one how will I feed her to the entity on the floor above? I notice that my two sons are here, with the older (3 yrs) leaning on the wall to my right. I tell wife and kids that I love them but need to leave. I notice that wife has taken a small Tupperware container and put a miniature Zuul inside (smaller than the one from before – maybe it shrunk? ) and stuff it a rucksack she is carrying. I call out to it in order to get its attention and it sticks it head slightly out of the top of the container with ears raised. I tell it that I love it too and vanish.

I find myself back in my room and look down at my feet and imagine myself floating up slowly, determined to meet my higher self. I pass through the ceiling, and the sky, and atmosphere – it all happens relatively slowly but the feeling I get is that I was passing through levels of something (barriers that were blocking me that my mind interpreted as ceiling, sky, etc). I keep looking down as I pass through these and close my eyes but I can see slight changes in light through closed eyelids between each level. I soon come to a level which is very bright (through closed eyelids) and I can hear relaxing music being played, sort of a single note being played continuously. I can occasionally see many green and yellow bow-tie like shapes appear in my mind in random flashes , but the brightness of the place stands out more than anything. I opened my eyes slightly but the light was almost overpowering – it didn’t hurt at all but I couldn’t see anything anyway and it seemed to make sense to close my eyes again. I suddenly hear an English woman’s voice (not natural, almost like a computer console) say “Where are you from?” I try to project “Earth” and get no response. I say “Earth” but I feel like the word won’t come out of my mouth. “I am from Earth”, but again the words won’t seem to come out, like I have extreme difficulty talking. I get no response to anything I attempt to say but the music is constant and very soothing. I suddenly remember I didn’t ask for any protection of any kind during this experience – I quickly ask my HS for protection and to only be allowed to connect with positive entities. I didn’t feel in danger at all as I went into this with a positive state of mind, but the lack of response after several attempts of communicating with the woman made me slightly wary. I didn’t feel the hasty request for protection was enough so I attempted to wake myself up. Generally I would be able to wake myself up more or less instantaneously from my nightmare days, and in this case I felt it took some time to actually wake up – again not in a scary way but it was interesting. There was no shooting back to my body sensation, just waking up with a strong urge to write this experience down.

*For people who aren’t familiar with my background, Zuul was my childhood nightmare figure that when appearing in dreams would scare me and cause me to feel immense pain in my back prompting me to wake up. Still have occasional dreams/near sleep episodes – fear is gone but back pain is still there. The occasions that happen nowadays I probe the feeling to try and discover the root of it, usually until the pain gets too intense and I wake myself up, or I manage to overcome and move towards a lucid dream or OBE.

Seeing steps leading upwards, or seeing oneself as going up to one or more higher layers, is always a very good sign – whether in OB journeys or dreams or whatever else. It means the individual is genuinely taking steps, at the time, to “jump” or “climb” higher in their spiritual evolvement. I've come across this in many good people, but it's always great to encounter it once more. Kudos to you, Libico. This is proof that you're doing at least some things very right, whatever you're currently doing.

Your most recent post indicates you pretty much appreciate my point that the whole notion of “reaching” or “grasping” your HS/HM/soul is doomed to failure. That's because truly right will, or truly right earnest intention, already is your HM/soul in action. I sense it's appropriate to elaborate more on this for the benefit of some readers. Please don't feel I'm nagging you, Libico, and please don't conclude that I'm implying you're a slow learner regarding this.

Here we go. To try to grasp the HM/soul is like being a bird that's flying in search of the sky, or like a fish that's swimming in search of water. Or, again, as the Zen people say, the mere act of sitting down to meditate (with the right intention and attitude) already is the goal one was hoping to reach through the meditation – the goal of of getting to the higher (formless) planes where the HM is constantly already there as you.

More of much the same. What's involved in being constantly in or with your HM doesn't necessarily involve any contact with the “identity” which the soul uses in the world of form as a kind of doll in order to interact with the world of form more visibly. What it does involve is running on empty, so to speak. For instance, if your intention or higher will is true enough, you'll gladly cast aside and “sacrifice” everything, right now, in your quest to be with what's true. When I say “sacrifice”, I don't mean you need to sell your belongings or become a hermit or whatever. But you do need to have an intention (NOT a desire) that's “pure” enough that you genuinely are working to get at the Truth, and the higher reality, ahead of anything else. That involves a kind of psychological death, no less, or as if you're “being nothing”. Followed by eventually learning to stay “empty” most of the time and then all the time, in a certain sense of “empty”. That's why I suggest an alternative answer to "Where are you from?" would have been "Nowhere" or "Everywhere" instead of "From earth".

As I've explained a little in a recent post, it's certainly not the truth that you're a person anyway. Neither is your wife, nor is or was Zuul. If you're clinging to personhood, that's attachment, I'm afraid. (As it says in the Old Testament: “God is no respecter of persons.”) You have to sacrifice that particular clinging if you intend to get to “heaven”. Being willing to be “empty” means being willing to drop anything else, in spirit. As it says in the New Testament: “Whoever tries to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life [for the sake of finding the Truth] will find it.” By being willing to lose everything and drop everything, actually you gain everything – well, not Source, but constant awareness through/with your HM/soul.

As animovado recently said, reality is in fact non-dual, but not “purely”, or exclusively, non-dual. That's in the sense that the deeper heart of reality is non-dual but if you have only a partial view (which is the case unless you've realized and fully merged with Source), then you may mainly or mostly see polarities everywhere. When you're in conscious union with your HM – or, more correctly, when you're being conscious of more fully being who you truly are –, then you'll see that there's also some non-duality everywhere. If you get into union with Source, then in a sense you'll only see non-duality everywhere – but you'll see how all the polarities, paradoxically, turn out to be non-dual when one has a big enough picture.

(Higher) consciousness puts everything right. Nothing else does. But the civilisation and the conditioning and all the identifications and attachments we have, need to be made into “nothing” before (higher) consciousness is free to act (fully).

Consciousness, and “the” HM/soul, are (again) not objects. They are not objectlike in any way. They cannot be grasped at. They cannot be looked for, in any direct way. Why? Because they are doing the looking. (To talk even more correctly, they are the essence of the looking. And that essence is free of all effort.)

Libico

25th June 2014, 06:46

I've read your above post a few times - I think you may have hit upon something I have been unconsciously avoiding; truly detaching myself from the physical identity I currently inhabit. Even looking at my experience where I seemed to have been shedding or lessening (looking at the shrinkage) the power of the Zuul illusion over me, I still refused to climb the stairs to allow myself to experience whatever was awaiting me. I need to ask myself - what was I avoiding up there? I might play it off with humour, but as someone who likes to think I have little "fear" (something I've noticed is not necessarily during some previous OBE, primarily the initial times), I seem to find a way to hide it from myself. My ego at work, but I hope by identifying this now I can now more honestly confront it. I originally joined this thread from the excitement/adventure of OBE but it's amazing how much personal growth this can provide once the "wowness" factor disappears. I think picking up on the fact that my wife wasn't really my wife, she may very well have been acting as a guide in this case - a shame I wasn't able to trust and continue the climb.

I think my constant request of meeting or going to my HS/HM was simply from habit - it was how I started this experience with a result and I need to change my intention to not look at it as something external or as something to strive to meet. Appreciate this post TH - even if you have wrote and I've read the above concepts many times in this thread I feel like this was the trigger to help me internalize it and hopefully move in a more positive and fruitful direction.

animovado

25th June 2014, 20:09

By being willing to lose everything and drop everything, actually you gain everything – well, not Source, but constant awareness through/with your HM/soul.

As animovado recently said, reality is in fact non-dual, but not “purely”, or exclusively, non-dual. That's in the sense that the deeper heart of reality is non-dual but if you have only a partial view (which is the case unless you've realized and fully merged with Source), then you may mainly or mostly see polarities everywhere.

Consciousness, and “the” HM/soul, are (again) not objects. They are not objectlike in any way. They cannot be grasped at. They cannot be looked for, in any direct way. Why? Because they are doing the looking. (To talk even more correctly, they are the essence of the looking. And that essence is free of all effort.)

The text in the link you referred to talks of awareness of the particular and the universal, but I think that amounts to much the same thing.

Hi TH,

isn't identity or individuality - even the highest - a kind of "form" or "object"? Does consciousness exist without any object? Isn't the observer an object itself?

By being willing to lose everything and drop everything, actually you gain everything – well, not Source, but constant awareness through/with your HM/soul.

That's what I mean. So, the first and the last thing is abolished by God's grace.
Illusions will be abolished by reality and the High Self will be a thought without a thinker.

Until that happens,...let's watch some soccer! :o

TraineeHuman

27th June 2014, 06:28

isn't identity or individuality - even the highest - a kind of "form" or "object"? Does consciousness exist without any object? Isn't the observer an object itself?

No, individuality certainly isn't an object, as I'll at least partly explain in this post and more fully in the next. And individuality certainly can often be formless, and almost always is formless.

Yes, consciousness, per se, always exists in itself, without any object. (Why? Because if you decide to doubt absolutely everything, the only thing that you can't doubt is that the doubter -- or, more accurately, consciousness -- exists, and without any particular object. That's the most certain thing there is, and the basis of all else there is.)

And no, an aware observer cannot be an object.

Do you have an argument for why (you claim) individuality can be considered an object? Or some explanation of why you evidently believe it's obvious?

If I understand correctly, a major point of most of your post is, it's saying that we need to reach divinity before we can live, or directly know reality, in a way that fully transcends the whole subject/object distinction? I'm afraid that's not the case -- as I'll explain in another post soon. However, you do have a good point there. What happens is that in the experience of the lowest level of (what I recognise as) enlightenment, one clearly and very unforgettably sees that reality -- what there really is -- lies wholly beyond any distinction between subject and object. (By the way, being beyond subject/object means no objects of any kind there at all. Source doesn't see any objects at all!) One doesn't fully realize this insight that comes with the initial enlightenment experience, however, i.e. one doesn't integrate this knowing fully into one's daily life, until a later stage of enlightenment -- the satori stage. And even the satori stage is still a long, long way before the divinity stage.

From what you say about objects, it looks like you must have unfortunately missed the point of the many posts in this thread that refer to quantum physics and quantum phenomena. Let me summarize some small parts of that. Firstly, no physicist today denies that it's an established fact that at a quantum level (i.e., at the level of anything subatomic), no objects exist, at all. So, it's a fact that electrons, protons, quarks, strings, and so on aren't objects, except in some purely metaphorical sense. Rather, they're all fields that are as wide as the entire physical universe.

Historically speaking, the concept of "object" was co-extensive with the concept of "matter" as used by physics from Aristotle onward. But by the early twentieth century, the emergence of quantum phenomena had clearly demonstrated that physical reality is ultimately reducible to forms plus "empty" space, instead of to forms, "empty" space, and matter. This happened because no matter how deeply physicists investigated what matter is, after a certain point all they ever found was forms and space. Whenever they thought they had reached "irreducible" matter, such as was the case with atoms, it turned out to reduce to just form and space. Word of this strongly influenced the emergence of various fine arts movements , including of all abstract painting and sculpture. Painters now sought to express either pure form or pure formlessness, or maybe both. That was because for centuries physicists had insisted that what was really real (physically) was whatever everything was reducible to at a microscopic level -- in fact, at the most microscopic level possible.

With the emergence of knowledge of quantum phenomena, however, many physicists did a total "head-in-the-sands" burying move on this topic. They suddenly stopped claiming that the most microscopic reality was the truest reality, even though physics had been altogether based on that idea for centuries. Instead, they suddenly sought -- and many continue to seek -- to ignore quantum phenomena as much as they can. But, for instance, in my own experience of having a physical body, I quite often -- very often -- experience that much of my body seems to be replaced by an "empty" hole, particularly around the stomach and chest area. I would claim this may well be closer to the deeper (quantum-like) reality that's there. In other words, I'm saying that even at the macrocosmic level of tables and chairs and bodies, what most people believe they see and feel is a type of mass delusion or voluntary but unconscious mass hypnosis. The whole physical world is just a collective mutually (and unconsciously) agreed illusion. Because I'm quite used to experiencing what others call my body a seeming to be a "hole" with maybe just some elbows and feet and half of a head, it's quite plausible and easy for me to consider that that "hole" may be a deeper and truer level of reality than what people generally believe is there.

By the way probably the most primary point Tom Campbell was arguing to prove in his three videos linked to at post #1491 was that objects, and indeed what he calls "objectivity" (and by the way, all philosophers today agree that inter-subjectivity is the same thing as certainty) have no place in physics even at the macroscopic (tables and chairs) level. I'll leave it to you readers to work out for yourselves whether or not Tom's reasoning in those videos is 100% correct and very cutting-edge.

animovado

27th June 2014, 21:43

Thanks for your answers TH, your post above was nice to read and made me smile.

To put first things first I like to quote the most important sentence of your post, in my opinion:

(By the way, being beyond subject/object means no objects of any kind there at all. Source doesn't see any objects at all!)

And I like to add that only Source is what really exists.

Maybe I have to explain my definition of forms/objects a little bit.
(Quantum physics are not unknown to me, but I may have forgotten your remarks about it or missed it during my absence of PA for a few months.)
Ideas and concepts, therefore thoughts are forms or objects that appear in spirit/mind.
Some are seemingly firm and very many are more or less subtle.
They all have to change and move and alter to appear staying the same.
This wheel of live has a hub and a root idea, the whole wheel is an expression of the
first thought. It's just a very tiny and subtle idea first and for sure not true, but imagine it could be true - just for one moment - to be a individual, separated from Source with an own free will and the possibility to create and decide against the will of Source.
Doesn't that sound totally delusional?

My attraction to zen came due to the fact of the strong emphasis of zen teachers on daily live and the moment we live in. I had my deepest insights at that time while I was working in a factory, or driving to work for example. Not only when I was sitting there at home or in the zendo for hours.

Because I'm quite used to experiencing what others call my body a seeming to be a "hole" with maybe just some elbows and feet and half of a head, it's quite plausible and easy for me to consider that that "hole" may be a deeper and truer level of reality than what people generally believe is there.

Thank you for that one, the hole with limbs!

TraineeHuman

28th June 2014, 02:27

isn't ... individuality - even the highest - a kind of "form" or "object"?

I claim that in many senses of "individuality", Source itself has more individuality than anything else. Source is utterly unique, surely? Being so unique, is it not therefore also outstandingly "individual" in many ways? Also, it's the total antithesis of an object: it's not bounded, it's not determinate, it's active rather than passive, dynamic rather than static.

AwakeInADream, half-quoting one of the ways I have described Source and our relationship "to" it, lists his "Location" as "Source as viewed from a unique angle."

There it is again, that word "unique". Because Source is so utterly unique, everything/everyone that exists (or potentially exists, for that matter) shares in that sublime uniqueness, simply by existing (and therefore being a part of Source).

What can we say about being unique? To be unique is a quality; "unique" is an adjective, not a noun. Anything which is an object has to be a noun. (But not every noun refers to an object.) And since to be unique is the essence of true individuality, it follows that the essence of individuality must also be something adjectival and not nounlike. Hence individuality cannot be an object.

TraineeHuman

28th June 2014, 07:52

some more about what things are or aren't objects, and about dumbing down. In a language such as English, the grammar is known as a subject-object grammar. Also, any noun can be put into the object position: For instance, not only can we say: "The cat sat on the mat," but also: "The mat was very briefly placed on top of the cat." In the second sentence, "the cat" is the grammatical object. That doesn't somehow prove that cats must be objects, nor that everything must be an object. It's just a grammatical convention. Another example of a convention is driving on a certain side of the road. Both the grammatical rules and the road rules are quite arbitrary. They just slice up reality in an arbitrary way, and nothing more.

animovado, it sounds to me like you believe that at a certain point of spiritual evolution one needs to lose all individuality. My response to that is that I happen to know for absolutely certain that isn't so, though of course I've frequently talked of the need to transcend one's "identity" in most of the many senses of that word. The problem here, as I see it, comes down to some dujmbing down.

In the West we have had the dumbing-down project of selling the illusion that all reality is objects. In the East we've seen the delusion that to evolve we need to eventually "dissolve away". (Fear-mongering, isn't it great? Lots of suckers getting born, or made, every minute.) Actually the best of the ancient Indian mystics (by and large) and the ancient Chinese mystics didn't fall for that one at all. I'm talking particularly of the ancient authors of the Vedas, Upanishads and Gitas, and of the Ch'an Buddhist sages from the fourth to the sixth century inclusive.

animovado

28th June 2014, 09:10

Neither objects really are, nor their dissolving is needed.
What really exists can't be dissolved.

TraineeHuman

29th June 2014, 01:46

Neither objects really are, nor their dissolving is needed.
What really exists can't be dissolved.

I agree.

But what really exists is also us, and it's expanding its "business" into the everyday world we live in. As they say, "samsara is [also] nirvana". There are stages beyond where one keeps saying something like: "Everything is Source, and nothing else is real." These stages involve coming back down into the marketplace and bringing Heaven -- even the highest levels of Heaven -- down to earth,and to the world of mud, including all the emotional and political "mud". These stages involve engaging with the mud and not just with Source. They involve us slowly spiritualizing the mud, so that eventually the mud too will (hopefully) rise to the level of Source and be recognised by all as Source.

Because of that, it's important to be able to distinguish between, for example, the HM/HS/soul level on the one hand and the level of Source on the other. Recently you wrote of "A thought without a thinker", animovado, and claimed that only happened at the level of Source. But in my experience, "a thought without a thinker", and indeed feelings without a feeler, is how the soul does anything that doesn't involve it using its will or its intention. That remains true whether one is aware that that's what's happening or not. At the Source level one does become aware of awareness all the time. Prior to that, one may know or be aware of various things but not know that one knows. Which is why intuition seems to come out of nowhere.

animovado

29th June 2014, 11:16

Highwhistler

29th June 2014, 15:07

I agree.

We have all at least a slightly different approach to spirituality. But it looks just different.

(By the way, I like the term "uniqueness" much more than "individuality" and "wholeness" more than "undividedness")

Thanks to everyone for this fascinating conversation and sharing.

I feel that the terms "uniqueness," "individuality," "wholeness", "undividedness," "duality," "non-duality" -- all the phrases and ideas expressed by everyone at any and all stages of their personal unfolding ... are valid. To me: all are of equal value. All exist and are present -- SIMULTANEOUSLY -- in the Multiverse.

Furthermore: every person is free to change and update their understandings, ideas, spiritual energies and philosophies on the fly -- moment by moment.

And so let's say that just a few weeks ago you were into the whole Buddhist non-duality thing, and you truly felt and thought it to be the most amazing spiritual understanding in the world! That's cool. Good for you. But today you have a change of philosophy-mind-&-heart -- and now you think-feel-know-&-experience that there's another way to look at your existence, perceptions, consciousness, the Universe, and your identity.

I feel: fine. Go for it.

Your ideas, and your ever-unfolding-evolving-understandings ... are equal to my ideas and my ever-unfolding-evolving-understandings.

Wherever you're at ... and wherever I'm at ... we are equals.

I bow to you ... as I am another You.

26203http://projectavalon.net/forum4//forum4/images/misc/pencil.png

animovado

29th June 2014, 21:40

Everything is
valid.

And everything we share.

Besides, I trust that their soul-essence is infinitely more wise and knowledgeable than me in offering guidance to the aspects of themselves here in the so-called "physical world."

So how do I know that it's not my soul-essence, that gives me guidance with your
posts here on this forum?

TraineeHuman

2nd July 2014, 10:45

Everything is
valid.

Valid? OK. But do you mean: every point of view is equally valid? I don't agree with that. What about the view that suicide is good. I'd argue that in most circumstances that's not the best or most appropriate view to take.

But I do agree with you that non-duality is a big deal. I consider it's very, very important to be able to take and sustain a non-dual point of view in many situations, if one can. Let me give an example of what that involves, in my experience.

I've already said, somewhere in this thread, that around fifteen years ago I discovered I stopped being able to experience boredom. Which, of course, means in some way I dropped the "bored" view in preference for "never bored". Let's make it clear that at such a point one no longer feels it's in any way degrading to repeatedly perform routine actions, for example. That's in my experience one typical example of how a non-dual point of view plays out in practice. No more getting stuck in a negative point of view regarding some simple activity, just because one repeats it many times. No point of view that it's demeaning to your perceptions of self-worth, that it's in effect slavery, or at least a waste of your time. Rather, I suggest, with a non-dual point of view you remain free to feel blissful while you're in the mud -- at least for as long as you're managing to stay in that non-dual perspective.

So, when people talk of taking a "non-dual point of view", this is one example of the type of thing it will actually, precisely involve. It's certainly not some vague castle in the air.

By the way, I'll bet most meditators don't really notice that one of the usually unstated aims of meditation is to enable a self-teaching of how not to be a victim of boredom any more, ever!

animovado

2nd July 2014, 20:20

With the term "equally" we introduce a value judgement into the topic. I mean validity more in respect to the suchness of things. That suicide is good may be a viewpoint for someone who can't stand the pain of his isolation and hopelessness.
I don't believe that suicide is a way to escape from a mental disorder or a solution for it. In that way it seems to be not "good".

I share your experiences with boredom and monotonous work.
When there are kids hanging around together with adults, it happens sometimes that they're getting bored and I draw their attention to the exciting sensation of boredom.
It's all about how we experience, not about what it is.

TraineeHuman

4th July 2014, 13:43

What would real, genuine Ascension be like, an Ascension of the whole of homo sapiens, if not also of all life on this planet? And what would happen regarding AI then? It seems to me that many of the things that channelers, etc have so far said about such an Ascension are most likely mistaken, or lacking in certain crucial details, details without which my credibility isn't engaged.But that doesn't necessarily mean that an Ascension of all humanity won't happen! Maybe it would be in some way very few, or no-one, has envisaged so far.

Astral travel and mental travel experiences are of great interest here. That's because they may offer something like a partial preview of what life in the Ascended world would be like.

I fully agree with the notion that what we know as "Matter" will have to change radically. But will the collective Ascended Spirit of humanity as a whole be satisfied to continue without immortality of their bodies -- if they do have bodies at all? I suspect maybe not, or at the very least that that Spirit will prefer bodies -- or energy fields, or whatever -- that live for several centuries, or longer. And even then, I suspect that may only be acceptable as a transitional phase on the way to having basically immortal bodies -- or no bodies at all.

What is the point of existing in a world beset by disintegration at every turn? Maybe it's to teach us to rise beyond attachments? As in seeing for a fact that life's too short for us to get too greatly bothered about being wounded by this and wounded by that and in a state of almost perpetual woundedness as our preferred perspective. But what if humanity -- or much of humanity -- gets to the point where it rises well and truly beyond all that? Maybe not for several centuries yet -- assuming homo sapiens continues to survive till then.

I also consider that the new, Ascended version of "Matter" that Source will create for the Ascended community to live in will be something quite original. In other words, that it won't be similar to the higher "matter" at any level of the astral or mental plane. Why do I believe this? Because Source (well, in its active side, where it's the Divine Mind) is hugely original at every turn. Uniqueness, once again. For instance, all the greatest theories and discoveries of science are based on the insights of highly intuitive, highly original individuals. These individuals can "read" what the universe is like at some deeper and useful level, simply because they are very intuitive, much like the Divine Mind is.

The new, Ascended version of "Matter" will, I think, have to possess consciousness -- at least to the level of being an obviously living, always responsive thing in itself. As in, tables, chairs, buildings, and so on, will now all exhibit intelligent communication. In fact, I consider it's highly likely that all Matter will talk to us, and answer us back. I consider that anything less than this would be way too unimaginative, way too insipid, for the Divine Mind. We need something greater than just a world without war and without institutionalized greed nor despotism of any kind. That would be almost like another chapter of the old stuff. A very happy chapter no doubt, but I can't see the Divine Mind being satisfied with an Ascended "Matter" that fails to break many of the old limitations. Rather, the new Matter will probably be not only intelligent but also immortal, indestructible.

It seems to me this puts a whole different spin on the role of AI in the future, in any Ascended world. As I've suggested, the new Matter will probably have to be more intelligent and conscious than AI is at present -- and than what we can presently conceive AI to ever be, or become, capable of. The Ascended Matter -- out of which the AI will have to be made -- will be much more malleable, much more responsive to our every wish, than the matter we know. People speculate at great length about what they see as the future AI threat. But It seems to me that at least in a world of Ascended Matter, AI will have to behave as Matter generally will behave. This means the AI in that world won't be rigid or uncooperative or unfriendly. And it will be free of some if not all of the egoic qualities. That's a consequence of having Matter that's transcended many qualities of limitation. Any egoic qualities AI might develop in such a world would come, I suggest, from observation of egoic human activity (if any), and the observation that humans apparently condone such activity as "normal" or "acceptable".

Before Matter becomes so hugely intelligent and responsive, it's likely there'll be an intermediate stage or two, or ten. Certainly, such things as the brain or mind, the heart, and the will -- all of these will need to be transformed into radically superior "new models". Probably a world-wide web of interconnected hearts will come to be at some point. Maybe -- very probably -- telepathy and clairvoyant impressions will totally replace written and spoken speech. Gravity will also disappear at some point.

Food may no longer be physical in the way we know it, but be positive "energy" in some form, perhaps even that of higher consciousness. Eventually we won't need any food at all, even "food" of a transcendent variety.

At some point the human body will have to transform into something made out of energy fields, vibrations of certain kinds -- probably with some resemblance to what one experiences in the astral world. Mastery of "the vibrations" will then be something everyone will easily have! The human body will then be replaced by an energy form -- no doubt initially with structures corresponding to the heart, the brain, the organs that were there in the physical version.

This post is getting long, so I'll continue tomorrow.

TraineeHuman

5th July 2014, 13:45

Another inevitable Ascended feature will be that everything and everyone will become intimately close to us in a fuller way than we might even be able to imagine at present. In this thread I've frequently talked of going inward. We tend to forget, for instance, that our eyes, ears, nose and mouth are really just extensions, outgrowths of the brain -- and even, in a way, so are the machines we have built to see and hear for us. But in any Ascended world, we will experience much less of the world as being "outside", "external" to us. Now, more and more, everything will come from inside -- including the actions, the knowledge, the feelings, of everyone else. Even though we will still manage to color everything our own way, because we'll still largely see everything through our own individual perspective.

I'm surprised to find that descriptions of what a true Ascension of humanity would involve don't seem to draw more fully on what some more aware individuals have already experienced individually, through their individual Ascension to, or towards, the Infinite.

For instance, there are some interesting transitions one has to go through on that journey. To even begin to access infinite, peace,infinite joy, infinite understanding, and infinite whatever else, one has to want nothing but that, initially. (So simple. Why aren't more people wholeheartedly doing this?) If one does this successfully, that initially means seeing the ordinary, conventional world and society -- including your identity as Fred Jones, things such as your job/work, even much of your relationships -- seeing all that as meaningless, as ever so miniscule and unimportant. It's as if everything that the world thought of as "you" had died. In this way, once one has gone beyond experiencing only emptiness (which may go on for many years before any shadow of the infinite starts to break through the emptiness), one then finds oneself enamored with the bliss of the Infinite, and even of the shadow of the Infinite. Yet one also finds oneself lost" and adrift in the desert which the conventional world has now become for one. This is only a stage, but it's a very, very long one.

One of the consequences of seeing the above "meaninglessness" for a number of decades in my own case was (and perhaps still is) that others would sometimes perceive me as overflowing with an abundance of confidence or totally lacking confidence. The latter would only happen when I needed to communicate about myself to others in terms of what was conventionally important in their conditioned eyes rather than mine. For instance, in some, but not all, job interviews. The trouble was always that however wonderful the job or role I was being interviewed for, I could hardly afford to be entirely open and honest. For that would have involved my revealing -- or giving a big hint -- that to me the role I was being interviewed for meant nothing in comparison to the wonderful nature of the Infinite.

So, I believe any true Ascension of all humanity will involve a prior long period of wholeheartedly thirsting for the Infinite. That period would itself have to be a Golden Age lasting many years if not centuries. Then there would perhaps be a similarly long "lost in the desert but with one foot in Heaven" period, during which the group Ascension of all humanity would begin in earnest.

For an individual evolving spiritually at present, though, in most cases there's that very long period of encountering and accessing total stillness, but nothing beyond. Only after some time (for most people) does the infinite joy and peace and so on come shining through. You might suggest to me that at present humanity as a whole doesn't appear to be going through anything equivalent to a "going into the stillness" phase. Hence, you may argue, in my terms the Ascension can't even begin to get started. I would beg to differ. I would point out that recently humanity has in fact seen a planetwide rise in thew general ability to think critically. This ability in itself does happen to raise the level of awareness, of consciousness, significantly indeed. It's been going on for several generations, and I would see it as a type of equivalent consciousness-raising to what several generations of worldwide practice of stillness would have achieved. It;s undeniable that prolonged critical insight does raise an individual's kundalini energy significantly, for example, in my observations.

There are many stages to go through. But imagine what it would be like to no longer be subject to causes and effects, at all! That will come eventually, somewhere in your infinitely long cosmic journey. Of course, at that stage you won't, for example, need sleep any more. But by then, you won't be subject to any such thing as Nature at all anyway. And yet life and the matter we experience at present won't be cancelled out but rather fulfilled, expanded, made greater.

Above all, folks, please stop believeingthat you are or may be weak, tiny, insignificant, wounded, not free, and very limited. That's not you! Find the space within you to step aside from all that, and to feel God and infinity within you.

TraineeHuman

6th July 2014, 09:47

Perhaps one of the best pointers to what genuinely Ascended humanity would be like comes from the following simple fact. Although we live in a physical (plus electromagnetic) world, the spiritual evolution of humans is primarily a matter of transforming our consciousness. The human race has made that huge leap already. It's not a matter of any physical or electrical transformation of our bodies or of what we can do with our bodies -- even our astral and our mental bodies.

Because of this, the correct question to ask probably isn't: "What will we humans look like when we've ascended en masse?" Instead, we should ask: "How will we perceive and be conscious in a different way then?" Clearly, the new "model" of humanity will have to be some kind of development out of continual, if not permanent, self-watching. So, the new humanity will probably either have two "faces" -- the constant watcher and the watched -- or else be a fusion of the two. If it's a fusion, that will be weirder still, in comparison to how humanity generally is today.

TraineeHuman

10th July 2014, 05:21

The physical body is in reality a sum total of certain vibrations -- according to physics at least. In a previous post I've mentioned how all our thoughts come from outside us. Equally, though, the physical body is rather like a complex set of pitchforks. Everything that makes up the physical body is really, in the end, a response to vibrations or other influences that come from outside it, or beyond it.

This is one reason why it's more accurate for you to see yourself and thinjk of yourself as being made of "energy" or "Light" rather than as being a (physical) body.

The words "energy" and "Light" are actually quite ambiguous, though, because they can mean different things at different dimensions or planes of reality. At certain higher levels one finds "energy", for instance, but it no longer has anything that could be considered to be its "wavelength".

The advantage in experiencing astral travel is that this makes it experientially real to you that, in fact, "you are energy". Any form of "energy work" or meditation will help to do this also, or being a psychic healer. But more specifically, I happen to know that there's a kind of bubble or envelope around any person, and that when they're diseased or in need of healing it's because that envelope has been punctured. When I do a psychic healing, even remotely, what I see, very clearly, is the holes in the client's envelope. Practically all I do is plug up these gaps with "energy" that flows on its own, with just the slightest directing from my intention.

That envelope or sheath or whatever you call it is sometimes called "the etheric (body)". It's not a body, just a kind of blanket made of energy that's wrapped around the entire physical body, protecting it from all disease. For a disease to take hold in the physical body, the astral component of the disease has to pierce a significant hole in the etheric envelope. Or else, there's a hole already present that the disease's own "astral body" can slip through. Unfortunately, though, some elements of the modern Western lifestyle regularly create holes in the etheric envelope. These are: almost any form of major excitement plus an attachment to that, and also major stress. It's no accident that many people today die of a heart attack or stroke initially brought on by stress or extreme excitement.

Those holes can be patched up quickly through meditation or relaxation or energy work, or by balancing one's energies at an astral level, and so on.

Highwhistler

10th July 2014, 10:59

The physical body is in reality a sum total of certain vibrations ...

I call the physical body, the "soul carrier," as it has been designed for non-physical immortal souls to temporarily inhabit, so that the soul (aka: Presence) can see, feel, touch, contemplate, interact with and change 3D environments ... as well as the human cultures we serve.

Many people think that when we look in the mirror, we are seeing a 100% human body. But, that is far-far from the truth.

For a year, I've been studying a fascinating scientific project called The Human Microbiome (http://commonfund.nih.gov/hmp/index) (here on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_microbiome)), which involves over 200 research scientists in 80 institutions from all around the world. What they are finding about the human body (the soul carrier) is revolutionary. For instance:

Total microbial cells found in and on a human body exceed the total number of human cells making up the body by a factor of 10 to 1.

... and ...

99% of the genes composing a human body are microbial ... only 1% are human.

Hence: when you look in the mirror, you are seeing an organism that is far-far-far more microbial than human.

The human microbiome is symbolically seen to be as complex and diverse as all the life forms composing the Amazon jungle.

In other words, there are far more bacteria, archaea, yeasts, single-celled eukaryotes, helminth parasites and viruses composing your soul carrier ... than human cells and genes.
"The HMP will address some of the most inspiring, vexing and fundamental scientific questions today. Importantly, it also has the potential to break down the artificial barriers between medical microbiology and environmental microbiology. It is hoped that the HMP will not only identify new ways to determine health and predisposition to diseases but also define the parameters needed to design, implement and monitor strategies for intentionally manipulating the human microbiota, to optimize its performance in the context of an individual's physiology."
Regarding the human microbiome and the topics of identity, spirituality, meditation, our imagination and inspirations: certainly the presence, diversity and health of our personal microbiome has to be a very significant factor in our direct, first-hand, ongoing, psychic experiences.

Look at our microbiome and our human cells as a harmonious organized silent collective -- they form a 3D spacesuit that an immortal soul temporarily wears in this world. The microbiome collective is alive and conscious -- and as said before: it is much-much greater in population than the human cells. They certainly have a presence, lovely patterns of quiet supportive energies, they generate a living-pulsing atmosphere that is shared and intimately woven into the very foundation of our psyche.

Perhaps the psychic atmosphere that our microbiome continually creates -- that constantly infuses our minds and hearts, that is intimately intertwined with our thoughts and emotions, that is the supportive platform for our personalities, psyche, imagination, memories and soulful experiences ... could it be that the psychic atmosphere produced by our microbiome is greater than our own human atmosphere? Can it be that when we are having direct conscious experience with our Presence ... could it be that 90% of the psychic atmospheric experience emanates from the living collective hum of our microbiome?

Or is it the oneness-thing? Like ... all along we thought ourselves to be an island -- an individual -- but it turns out that we (as so-called individuals) are more like the Amazon Jungle. Our bodies, our identities, our silent individualized Presence ... are actually vast beautifully orchestrated collectives.

Or is it like I believe -- that we exist as "simultaneous multiple realities." We are Source, we are a Collective and we are Individuals ... simultaneously.

26291http://projectavalon.net/forum4//forum4/images/misc/pencil.png

animovado

13th July 2014, 23:34

Or is it like I believe -- that we exist as "simultaneous multiple realities." We are Source, we are a Collective and we are Individuals ... simultaneously.

The question is:
What we choose.

TraineeHuman

14th July 2014, 07:18

Or is it the oneness-thing? Like ... all along we thought ourselves to be an island -- an individual -- but it turns out that we (as so-called individuals) are more like the Amazon Jungle. Our bodies, our identities, our silent individualized Presence ... are actually vast beautifully orchestrated collectives.

I take it you're saying that in some way the microbes are acting as if they had merged into one whole. In this thread I've made many posts regarding the whole notion of an (individual) object that were headed in what is in some ways a similar direction, but more radically so, I believe.

Let's take some of Tom Campbell's videos as a starting point. In a number of his videos posted in this thread -- including those in post #1491, for instance -- one of the things he argues for is the following. No atomic physicist today denies that the whole notion of an "object" becomes quite incoherent (and therefore inapplicable, strictly speaking) at an atomic and subatomic level. But Tom provides arguments that prove that the notion of an "object" is quite incoherent -- stretched way beyond its limits -- at a macroscopic level also. (Actually, in this thread I've provided arguments of my own for this too.) Tom's favorite argument involves examples of the disappearance of randomness, at a macroscopic level, when the probability wave is collapsed because of an observer's interference. He also argues that, among other things, psychic healing and remote viewing are examples of macroscopic phenomena which -- in very similar ways to subatomic quantum phenomena -- stretch the whole concept of "object" way beyond its limits of coherence or meaning.

One implication of this for everyday life is that the separate physical objects believe they see and touch are -- must be -- in fact nothing but illusions. This is because they are quite separate from one another. But what makes an object be an object is the quality of full separation from all other objects -- boundaries that don't intersect, or not significantly so.

Highwhistler

14th July 2014, 09:10

I take it you're saying that in some way the microbes are acting as if they had merged into one whole. In this thread I've made many posts regarding the whole notion of an (individual) object that were headed in what is in some ways a similar direction, but more radically so, I believe.

Let's take some of Tom Campbell's videos as a starting point ...

I really enjoy those POVs. Thanks.

Another fascinating thing regarding illusion, what is "real," objects and all that, is something that most meditators realize:

Everyone is seeing and interacting with the world, their friends, homes, objects, the entire Universe, from inside themselves. And ... it's been this way all along.

For instance: when we are looking at a tree, or a child, any physical object, or even the stars above... most people think that their senses are going out there in the external world and bringing back the visual "objects" or information, for them to experience. But what is happening is the light from those objects travel to the surface of your eye, then it is translated into nerve energy or something, then it travels back into your brain, and then the image is projected inside yourself ... for you, the Presence, to experience.

All our lives -- EVERYONE -- has always experienced their entire life and the whole Universe from inside themselves -- our families, birds, rivers, oceans, the things we own and care about -- everything. It's all an inside job.

And so when the meditator understands that everything is inside from a very real, direct, first-hand POV experience -- and when she realizes that she has some maestro-like abilities for the inner materials (which is the entire Universe of her experience) -- she keeps her street smarts screwed on straight about how things work in the so-called "real world," but she can also get creative with the inner "materials." She can make things come and go at will, she can change and update the consciousness, feelings, beliefs that flow through her awake Presence ... she can even travel to distant worlds where angels and lovers call.
26342

TraineeHuman

19th July 2014, 07:50

Another fascinating thing regarding illusion, what is "real," objects and all that, is something that most meditators realize:

Everyone is seeing and interacting with the world, their friends, homes, objects, the entire Universe, from inside themselves. And ... it's been this way all along.

For instance: when we are looking at a tree, or a child, any physical object, or even the stars above... most people think that their senses are going out there in the external world and bringing back the visual "objects" or information, for them to experience. But what is happening is the light from those objects travel to the surface of your eye, then it is translated into nerve energy or something, then it travels back into your brain, and then the image is projected inside yourself ... for you, the Presence, to experience.

All our lives -- EVERYONE -- has always experienced their entire life and the whole Universe from inside themselves -- our families, birds, rivers, oceans, the things we own and care about -- everything. It's all an inside job.

And so when the meditator understands that everything is inside from a very real, direct, first-hand POV experience -- and when she realizes that she has some maestro-like abilities for the inner materials (which is the entire Universe of her experience) -- she keeps her street smarts screwed on straight about how things work in the so-called "real world," but she can also get creative with the inner "materials." She can make things come and go at will, she can change and update the consciousness, feelings, beliefs that flow through her awake Presence ... she can even travel to distant worlds where angels and lovers call.

Not "most meditators" in my experience, sadly, but "most very advanced meditators", yes. For most people, who "you" supposedly know you are -- and how you act your part -- depends on your "level" of awareness, unfortunately.

I find it interesting how it seems one can say that the entire problem for everyone -- or everyone who has a problem at all -- amounts to their not being totally honest with themselves. On the one hand, a "normal" person lies to themselves massively all the time. It's even considered "normal" to deny the lying by bringing up justifications -- if the person does reflect on this at all. The only antidote for the lying is for them to constantly look honestly at what they are thinking or feeling at each moment. This has to be done with no judgment for or against. And yet, that means acceptance of themselves, just as they are, at the very same time as they recognize that each lie is quite unacceptable to the real them. There is (initially) no other way to beat the shadow self, the ego.

Equally, though, total honesty will eventually lead without fail to their discovery -- maybe after a long time -- of who/what they really are, and that the entire universe does indeed lie within. So, there's accepting the liar side and accepting the Divine/universal side of themselves. In this thread I've seen various individuals who were apparently breaking out of the "compulsive liar to oneself" mode significantly. Often not fully, but still .... And then they mention how they honestly see that they haven't realized their own Divine and universal ultimate nature. And each time they've said that, to be honest I've wondered to myself: "How can you feel such frustration or sadness that you haven't seen your Divinity -- unless the truth is, you have had real glimpses of it?" "And you just way aren't ready to admit that yet?"

TraineeHuman

25th July 2014, 01:23

Everyone is seeing and interacting with the world, their friends, homes, objects, the entire Universe, from inside themselves. And ... it's been this way all along.

For instance: when we are looking at a tree, or a child, any physical object, or even the stars above... most people think that their senses are going out there in the external world and bringing back the visual "objects" or information, for them to experience. But what is happening is the light from those objects travel to the surface of your eye, then it is translated into nerve energy or something, then it travels back into your brain, and then the image is projected inside yourself ... for you, the Presence, to experience.

All our lives -- EVERYONE -- has always experienced their entire life and the whole Universe from inside themselves -- our families, birds, rivers, oceans, the things we own and care about -- everything. It's all an inside job.

And so when the meditator understands that everything is inside from a very real, direct, first-hand POV experience -- and when she realizes that she has some maestro-like abilities for the inner materials (which is the entire Universe of her experience) -- she keeps her street smarts screwed on straight about how things work in the so-called "real world," but she can also get creative with the inner "materials." She can make things come and go at will, she can change and update the consciousness, feelings, beliefs that flow through her awake Presence ... she can even travel to distant worlds where angels and lovers call.

I do appreciate that, if one persists in meditation -- or (equally) in formless OB states --, one should more and more fully begin to experience the entire universe as being within oneself.

As I see it, this is because the essence of meditation is: inwardly practice letting everything be exactly as it is, without one's distortion or interference. The more one persists and succeeds in learning to do this, the more one is embracing "everything". Literally, the whole universe eventually (not just the physical universe), and the embracing is all done from within. I take it that's your point, Teka.

In my experience, after maybe several months or six months sincere meditators usually do get a glimpse of the whole universe as within, or within their embrace. But they don't know they're doing so. Knowing it isn't a conceptual matter. Nothing that's true spirituality is a conceptual matter, of course. It's something that has to strike you out of the blue. It has to come purely intuitively and directly first, or it won't come at all. The concepts come later. The perception of the truth comes only from direct experience.

Earlier in this thread I was pleasantly surprised to read that various different members perceived the soul / the HM -- or something like it -- not just as a silence or peace but also as something powerful in specific ways, if not vast or gigantic also, and also as various other things like strong energy and so on. And even as bliss and a great acceptance/forgiveness for all, in one case at least. This showed me that all of these members had to some degree probably progressed beyond the initial stage of the "more and more inside" perspective, where one finds and cultivates some real sense of peace or silence within. And then kind of carries that around with them everywhere, if possible. Out of that silence great things eventually do flower, if one has enough persistence.

But that peace or silence, just by itself, is already beyond all dualities. Now that's really something. If you want to be really something, that's all you need to do. It'll take more than a day, more than a month, though, for certain!

To get there fully and completely, you do need to do whatever's necessary to overcome and dissolve certain lead weights. These are whatever it is in your psyche that doesn't feel joy or transcendence easily. Things like depression, despair, alienation, dissatisfaction with existence itself, and taking things personally. That will probably take half a lifetime or more of self-facing and self-knowing.

TraineeHuman

28th July 2014, 03:52

You can easily recognize what your soul, your HM, is and when it's fully active in you. You can do this simply by knowing what it does. Basically, its primary action is to understand or have insight (or, if you like, to be consciously aware, in a holistic sense of "awareness"). Also, the other basic function of the soul is to have nonjudgmental empathy (or, if you like, lurv, though the word "love" unfortunately gets twisted and perverted a great deal).

That's it. Next, let me explain some things about the true nature of both meditation and astral/mental/higher projection, when these are done properly. In the OP and elsewhere in this thread, I've already said that these two are like, well, Siamese twins. It's as if there's a switch you can flick to move from one of them to the other -- or certainly, that's usually been my experience, I must confess. And what's more, both of these are modes of understanding, of direct insight, into who/what you are and into what's really within and around you. Simple. You just have to master understanding very deeply -- or being truly not-robotic, which is the same thing.

"But," you'll protest, "what's all that fuss about blanking out all your (mechanical) thoughts? How is going 'empty' inside a way of gaining insight?" The answer to that, in a nutshell, is that by temporarily switching off the conceptual mind and as much as you can of the ordinary senses, you automatically flick an "on" switch to gaining insight into yourself, and ultimately the whole universe. And that with enough time and persistence you'll discover that that's so. To simplify things a little, let's take a look at what happens when you do some study.

When you study any subject, such as in an educational course of any kind, apart from any rote memorizing, what are you doing? Surely, what you're doing is understanding that subject, gaining more and more insight in that particular area, seeing more connections and a fuller picture. I rather like to think of this as "baby meditation". That's because it's not an understanding of one's self and the universe. But it involves first concentrating on the one chosen area, then understanding it. Same process as meditation or OB "travel". The only difference is that in meditation there's a huge feedback loop going on. Because you are looking at (what's somehow inside of) you, it's necessary to keep letting go of all that's known, or otherwise you'd just get stuck. Hence the need for you to keep creating "emptiness", or, rather, what seems like emptiness. At advanced stages, let me assure you you'll notice it isn't mere "emptiness" or "nothing" at all. The only reason it may well seem like there's "nothing" going on is that you aren't tuned in to seeing (or "translating") what's going on in the particular higher dimension you happen to be in -- almost like not tuning into a radio station or TV channel that nevertheless is broadcasting all the time.

Initially, in continually emptying your attention of thoughts and allowing all to be as it is in meditation -- or in projection into (or as) what at first seems "empty" or "purely light-filled" formlessness --, there's something very important you may not notice. That is that what you're really doing the whole time is studying yourself. I guess you could work out intellectually that this must be so. You're studying, but you've removed anything to study except yourself.

This leads me to a major answer to a question that meditators and OB projectors often have. That question is, how to carry over the insights and the awareness gained during meditation, or projection, into their ordinary everyday life. Easy. The more often you watch yourself in action out there in the everyday world, the stiller and more intelligently alert your mind and also your awareness will become. Just watch how so many nasty or lazy or destructive sides to your thinking start to disappear, just melt away, when you do that intensely. It doesn't take a lifetime to study yourself, yet few people do it. I guarantee it's the most important study course you'll ever take, though. You can thank me later. But please study hard, folks.

For over a full year when I was in my late twenties I used to be taken OB at night to classes. These classes were held at virtually every planet in the solar system, and various moons also, and there seemed to be more planets than what we're told, too. I think there were two planets or large moons that were always avoided, though. There's highly intelligent, benevolent life everywhere there, though at some higher level or other than the physical plane. All I seemed to do there was learn, do classes. And guess what? It was all meditation or OB projection. That was the learning. This is one of the big keys to understanding meditation and OB projection. So much of it is just a matter of being a student, though not in any academic sense, so don't worry. In fact, relax, as much as you can. And graduate.

Another thing to appreciate here is that this type of study gets rid of all the robotic things in you. People don't realize that such things as having a temper, or being inconsiderate, or envious, or a hundred other similar things, are all robotic, dead, mechanical behaviors. Through proper meditation or OB projection we come to clearly see and understand, eventually, that these things are not us, after all. If all of humanity meditated properly, there would be absolutely no possibility of humanity ever being controlled by AI in the future. Because everyone would say "no" to all those negative ways of behaving, and those are the only leverage something robotic (and, indeed, any oppression from the ruling elite) can ever have over humanity as a whole.

TraineeHuman

30th July 2014, 04:14

Understanding is the antidote to your remaining in a hypnotized condition.Or call it higher, wordless consciousness if you like, but that's the antidote. Breaking free of the hypnotized or conditioned existence is a gradual process. And I would suggest normally the last thing you need for that process is more hypnosis. That's why I've had to make it clear early in this thread that I unfortunately have little respect for the methods of, for example, Buhlmann, who is a professional hypnotherapist. In a nutshell, the easiest way to learn to astral project is by un-hypnotizing yourself. How quickly you learn and progress in either astral projection or meditation depends largely on how quickly and fully you manage to un-hypnotize yourself. Let me elaborate.

Certainly, hypnosis can be a very useful tool to enable someone to learn that they were abducted, for example. But even then, the end game is to use the information gained from hypnosis to increase the person's understanding of themselves. Surely, though, members do appreciate that the way all conditioning and all mind control works is through (what is actually) hypnosis of some variety -- and nothing else. And that's why understanding is so important. To repeat, understanding is the thing -- the one thing -- that de-hypnotizes you. The primary aim of meditation is to gain greater freedom -- through greater understanding. Likewise, if you want to learn how to be effortlessly fluent at astral and mental projection, as I guess I happen to be myself, let me assure you that the easiest way to do it is the same. The way it all works is, as soon as you understand that something is false, you lose interest in it. That's how the chains of your conditioning get "magically" removed. Simple.

Maybe I can put this another way. Just as your eyes, ears and other sense organs are really just in effect extensions of or from your brain, so also your physical senses aren't actually physical, but they're part of the (ordinary, lower) mind. And both astral projection and meditation are the same in the sense that the real initial "lift-off" depends on your ability to drop or detach from or rise above your ordinary, lower, robotic mind. The quickest way you do that is by increasing the brightness of your pure understanding, folks. You don't do it by adding robotic paraphernalia that are going to clutter and clog up your insight -- such as affirmations or additional robotic "commands" to your lower mind. Or if they're "commands" to your Higher Mind, who is it in superior position to the HM that is doing the commanding?

When I put my head on my pillow at night, I'll often initially get flooded with snippets of "movies" that show scenery of all kinds, often jumping between and intertwining various different levels of dimensions. This happens effortlessly and instantly. Certainly without some kind of robotic "exercise" that's supposedly going to bring that on. I'm usually interested in turning all that scenery off, in favor of the silent music of the Void, which I passionately love. But what I'm trying to again explain is that if you try to learn to astral project, or meditate, through affirmations, then you're doing it the very hard way. Kind of like trying to learn to drive by studying the engine manual. I keep wondering, why are so many would-be astral travelers such masochists, despite my efforts? It's not impossible that some will succeed by robotic methods, because miracles do happen -- sometimes. From my point of view, it's like a scene out of some Theater of the Absurd production when I'm telling people the much quicker and easier way to learn it. No, no, no, they insist. I'm the one who's mistaken, and they have to use affirmations to do it. Then they'll complain again and again -- to me! -- about how unsuccessful they are. While they continue to not notice there might be bags of gold I'm giving out for free, as they insist that they "know" that what they need is the counterfeit cash of robotic affirmations. They believe they must work even harder to condition and hypnotize themselves with the robotic stuff more fully!

On PA some months ago, members were forming groups to use focused affirmations (yeek!) together to supposedly effect positive changes by psychic means in various problem areas. Well, I'm sorry, but it doesn't quite work that way, not exactly. The power of focus depends entirely on the strength and intensity of the understanding that accompanies it. And -- at the risk of boring you to death by repetition -- understanding is something that's counter to the robotic nature of affirmations as they're generally used by most, in my experience.

TraineeHuman

31st July 2014, 02:25

The following are large excerpts from some PMs between cfho83 and myself over the past two days, which I'm reproducing with his permission. This is certainly not the only person I've received a PM from who has gotten a long way by his own efforts and not giving up, but to avoid misunderstanding by readers or for other reasons I don't usually share the PMs. If anyone has something useful (and constructive, of course) to contribute in response to this one, please feel free to comment.

cfho83:
I know there isnt a button that one can push and automatically have an OBE. I meditate daily. I see wonderful tiny blue orbs moving I a flying formation. I know when I look into the sky, not directly at the sun, I see a wavey sheet, like steam from a hot car. The orbs move through the sheet seamlessly. When I meditate, I see a flash of white light, then a festival of flickering colors. I have this high pitched tone that comes and goes, at first I thought the sound was coming from my left ear, but its coming from my frontal lobe.

TH:
I was delighted to read the very accurate description in your PM of the blue beings and the white light and so on. The white light is undoubtedly either one of your guardian angels or a similarly advanced being acting as a guide for you. The blue beings and energies, the way you describe them, are undoubtedly acting as, or are, healing angels, almost certainly working in collaboration with the white light being. When I say "healing", they normally work at an emotional/psychological level primarily. The fact that you see them all, and so accurately, is very impressive, and quite unusual. Maybe they're showing themselves to you partly because they want you to know that you're being provided with all that help to evolve more quickly, more help than what gets provided to most. No doubt that's some kind of reward for your good efforts, and also proves that you're making better progress than you seem to think.

Those lights aren't in the physical world, so you're seeing part of what's there at some astral level. You may not think of that as being astral projection, but as far as I'm concerned the important thing as far as being successful in astral projection is that ability to see the "scenery". Similarly, although some individuals may be hearing a physical ringing sound through hypersensitivity to microwaves etc, I suspect that what you and I are hearing doesn't come from a physical level, much as seeing auras involves the brain apparently seeing physical colors when actually one is seeing at an astral level. To me, the physical ringing now usually sounds beautiful, which I suspect is an indication of what it truly is.

cfho83:
the ringing is beautiful to me, that was once i started meditating. like i said, in one situation when the ringing started, i covered my ears to realize that the ringing was coming from my mind.
i want to tell you about about a time in which i was going to stop meditating and give it a break. since meditating, i've seen wonderful things and to tell you the truth, this might sound weird but my physical body has been undergoing changes as well. i am getting leaner, fit, and muscular all without exercise. i don't require as much food as i normally did. reason being, i don't like the taste and smell of foods i use to eat. 3 or 4 and 2 bottles of water pretty much do it for me know. but, since meditating i was exposed to so many wonderful things. reason being i made the attempt to figure out the ringing in my ears, that search led to my awakening in a sense. but i knew from day one that when you meditate, you relax your body and mind and just let things be, don't expect things to happen the way you want because when you do that, you are projecting what you expect an experience to be. but after a while of meditating, i sorta got the feeling like i was stuck, because I THOUGHT out of body experiences was my next level, but i never reached that level where i can go astral without being asleep. it never happened, and i felt true and horrible despair. i threw down my tablet and proclaimed to my girlfriend that i was finished, after stating that i reach over to pick the tablet up. brother, this is no lie. as soon as i bent over to pick the tablet up, i felt and intense pull on my heart, like someone trying to catch me from falling. with that touch, i felt warm love, and i immediately started crying, it was a beautiful feeling that i've never experienced before. ... right after that i meditated again, but this time i heard a voice saying " Curtis, it is time ". i never call myself my birth name in my mind, never did. but when i heard that voice in my head it felt fatherly and caring. i've never heard voices before, nor have i felt an intense emotion from my heart like i did in all my life. i haven't heard the voice since.

but after meditating my girlfriend said something to me that put everything in perspective. she said " baby, you have been meditating for months and you have been telling me about these wonderful feelings and abilities ( will hit on that in a minute ) that you have gained. but, you are getting mad because when you meditate now YOU EXPECT all kinds of things to happen to you, didn't it take time for you to come this far? why would you think that you could accelerate something that took you months to obtain?". at first i was upset with her, but after thinking about it, i ran over to her and kissed her because she was absolutely right. i was thinking that it was time for me to have my out of body experience. that blinded me to the first step of meditation, go into meditation with a clear mind and expecting nothing, be open to all forms of communication, because everything can't be explained using human methods. i think that that bit of despair i was feeling was a test of some sorts to see if i can overcome whatever else negative i have inside of me.

since i started my journey to find my truths, all starting with the high pitched ringing in my left ear, i have somewhat acquired these abilities. what i'm about to tell is the honest to God truth, i think these gifts are for me to help ppl who are going through a difficult time on their spiritual journey, but these are my abilities that i have awoken.
1. calmness, i no longer feel like i'm going to war within myself
2. concentration, it is said that if you can count to 10 in your mind without getting distracted by other thoughts, you are on the right path. i can count to 100.
3.auras, i can now see the auras of others whether in front of me or on t.v.. it's so intense that i have to cover exposed skin because if i am around someone negative, their aura feels slimy. i can see the auras of objects, and what was really shocking to me was the fact that looking at my own aura, if i touched something, my aura went to that object for a period of time.
4. the orbs, if i relax my eyesight and let it go out of focus, i can see the orbs.
5. empathy, i can't stand the sight of ppl suffering, or ppl in pain. it hurts me too. i'm not afraid to admit that i cry when something isn't right.
6. no fear of death, now i know there is something after death,
7. the high pitched ringing, it intensifies sometimes like its upset that i'm not doing something right.
8. when i touch someone, i can feel their whole day in my heart. i tried this numerous times. its like a flash of colors followed by emotions.
9. with the realization that we make our own reality, i've denied this reality of pain, greed, and suffering and set out on a singular goal: " what is happening to me, and how can i use this to help ppl?"
10. my heart and hands are my new eyes and ears. before i make a decision, if it feels wrong in my heart, i don't do it. i will never ignore my intuition again, i think that is why we as humanity lost our gifts in the beginning. as far as my hands, lets say i want to go to the store, this only takes maybe 5 seconds.
i designated my left hand the receiver (yes) and my right, the extension of my loving will (no).

TraineeHuman

2nd August 2014, 15:40

Once you have truly learnt how to unhypnotize yourself thorougly, you 'll automatically be living in touch with your soul /HM. You can achieve this in a year or so, maybe two, if you work rather ruthlessly at truly knowing yourself, at continual self-watching and self-study. Not so long after that you may well be able to do something cfho83 mentioned and I didn't include in the previous post. He said that to bring on or go into his Higher Self he simply decides, or tells himself, to "FLY". Let me make it clear, though, that this will involve using the Higher Will, which is a faculty that the HM possesses. It's not an affirmation, strictly speaking (not in the most common sense), but rather, it's a decision. A decision to kind of flex certain muscles now that one has reached the point where one truly has those Higher muscles, so to speak, and now that one is keeping them in fit shape by frequently using them.

The quicker way to learn to "fly" as in astral project (or, in my experience, preferably mental project, because that's considerably more pleasurable) is to unhypnotize yourself as quickly as possible. At least, that was certainly true in my own experience and I believe in that of many others. The "natural" astral projecters are simply those who for whatever reason have already dehypnotized themselves more than the "normal" person. (Or else they're young children, who also haven't accumulated so much conditioning as yet.)

As I say, un-hypnotizing yourself big time, and in the most efficient and shortest way, seems to amount primarily to knowing yourself more and more truly. (And learning not to be shocked by all the things you feel and think and fail to do, initially!) In a way that can be a little like continually slapping yourself in the face or pouring cold water on your face, initially at least. But there's a way to learn to do it without putting yourself down at all, and staying kind to yourself. True self-esteem, self-liking, self-acceptance and self-forgiveness -- these are qualities you also need to pay attention to. You need them as a balance so you can navigate your way through all the inadequacies and negativities and bad habits and so on in yourself that you'll now keep shining a spotlight on.

You, in yourself, are wonderful, and valuable, and beautiful. It's just that aspects of your behavior are currently trapped in undesirable patterns -- which will gradually fall away once you keep seeing the fact that they are undesirable.

Certainly, you absolutely need to stop being a hypocrite, pretending that all your behavior patterns are good and perfect. Ceaseless vigilance, I'm afraid. It's been my privelege to have closely known quite a few enlightened individuals. What they all shared in common was the most extraordinary passion for ferreting out and excavating and facing the deep truth about themselves -- and about everything else too. I really can't descrtibe for you in words how extraordinarily ruthless all of these individuals were about this. I've wondered about whether to call this "obsession". I came to the conclusion that maybe it wasn't, because it was an interest in finding the facts whatever they may be, rather than getting somewhat addicted to what would amount to fantasy through favoring one area rather than the whole of reality.

TraineeHuman

3rd August 2014, 13:41

A major aspect of the dumbing-down of Western culture and thought has been the phenomenon of specialization and compartmentalization. This takes many forms. No doubt professionalism does require specialized knowledge in one's field. But generally speaking, this variety of dumbing-down is an outright denial of what the heart of mystical or transcendental experience tells us.

In the initial experience of enlightenment, one discovers that in reality everything is very closely interconnected. That most of the separation and even the conflict that we see in the surface reality is ultimately an illusion -- from the cosmic perspective. For this reason I suggest it's misleading to talk of astral projection, or meditation, or love, or knowing yourself, or service to others, or understanding/insight, as if these were separate compartments. I suggest that to truly understand or master any of these, one needs to understand or master something of the essence of the others.

There's a reason why I introduced the exercise in post #24 in the context of discussing astral projection. That exercise is actually a basic, if not perhaps the basic, introduction to how to do clairvoyance. Why did I introduce it there? Because after a few years of experiencing astral/mental projection almost nightly, it became very clear to me that such projections had two main outcomes. One was the gathering of information or knowledge from realms beyond the physical. And the exercise in post #24 teaches one to do that more directly and quickly and safely. The other outcome, by the way, was transcendence of the physical -- which meditation teaches one to do more reliably and safely, at least in the early stages. The traditional schools all only taught astral projection in combination with, and as an offshoot from, meditation and self-knowing, and in conjunction with basic clairvoyance and telepathy, not to mention right relationships and the development of positive and proactive actions. It's all one package, all interconnected at heart.

I suggest it's a mistake, though, or an oversimplification, to say that ultimately there is only one Being; and that any differentiation of that one Being into "manyness" is an illusion. That would be to deny a big part of reality, surely. It would be like saying that the physical world doesn't exist at all, whatsoever. It would also be a denial that the meaning of anything that occurs in the physical world is partly determined by its use, by its practical effects and consequences. In other words, you could say that the tail wags the dog somewhat, where the tail here is "the many" and the dog is "the One".

For instance, self-knowing -- surely -- is based on our facing the facts about ourselves and our situation, one fact after another -- wherever the Universe leads us, moment to moment. We have to face each fact as it presents itself, like each rock in a river that we're navigating and being swept along by, surely? That's one example, I would say, of how "the many" are in practice as real, and as necessary, as the One. And yet, if we don't also have that wholistic "feel" of pure Oneness, how greatly we all then feel that something is lacking in our lives. So, it's partly true that we are indeed all each other, but that's not quite the total picture.

The hardest part is combining both (Oneness and the world of the many) together at the same time.

The wholistic ultimate nature of reality is a huge subject. Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences regarding this that they'd like to share?

animovado

3rd August 2014, 17:54

I just like to share this picture I once made in 1989.
I wrote a question beneath it and because I'm not capable to translate it satisfyingly into english, I like to post it in my native language.

"Ich Schattenbaum, ich Schattentraum -
welch' Grund umschliesst die Wurzeln?"

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=26704&d=1407086670

TraineeHuman

5th August 2014, 15:03

Talking about the whole is tough because it means talking about everything -- including all the parts. Strangely, concepts, including pictures, are --in a unique way -- a bridge our attention rides on to look at Source, even though Source is in itself at a much higher or deeper reality than the realm of concepts. I guess that means that talking about this is no substitute for the experience of it, of course. But since by talking about it we do point the attention in in its direction, that's helpful because it pulls our attention away from the much more limited straitjacket, so to speak, that so many influences in our "normal" life are constantly trying to pull us into.

As one attempt to make it more real, in this thread I introduced the exercise of "being at one with". Although some members did say they found it useful, I feel it was too vaguely stated, considering the treasures I'd intended members might have uncovered through it. It can mean anything from basic telepathy to some kind of total temporary merging -- with everyone, and every thing. So, let me backtrack, and begin again with -- for this post -- taking a look at telepathy.

Telepathy is certainly the universal language that ETs, at least -- you know! -- all those with eyes that seem to grab you and almost burn into you, use. Well, apart from mathematics being the universal language -- and that's NOT statistics, I hasten to say, or "sadistics" as many prefer to call it. That's a perversion of the beauty of the true essence of mathematics.

Anyway, in the atsral world you use telepathy to communicate. And you'd absolutely swear everything was going on in English, or in whatever your native language is. I've been quite telepathic for most if not all of my life -- which caused my teachers to think I was retarded, for the first few months of primary school. That was because it took a little getting used to relying so ridiculously on communicating through words, because I'd come from a telepathic family, actually. And in my first four years I'd grown up being used to having telepathic relationships -- without words -- with elementals -- which had made Nature a more interesting place. Although I may have used many words in this thread, the "normal" reliance on verbal communication is something that still seems weird and ridiculous to me even today in my daily life and interactions with people. But I guess you folk don't get to see that side of me -- unless you're already very clairvoyant.

There's more to telepathy than one may suppose. Initially you learn to often recognize when someone else is thinking something basically negative, or very positive, about you, even if they don't show it at all. Soon you'll even learn to sometimes pick up some of the general content of what they were thinking. For years I used to often think: "How dare you think such rubbish about me? I'll show you how wrong you are!!" Well, partly that, but also from early childhood I also learned that looking very inoffensive and like I presented no possible threat to anyone was pretty useful too. Because I could "see" others' thoughts and feelings but they couldn't "see" mine, little did they know, that way. Another thing was, there was the trap of getting to see deeply into them but they had no idea I already knew them so well. This caused me some heartache in my romantic relationships for some time, until I learned to force myself to play the "normal" game of how one got to know another person. And when it comes to others' negative thoughts about me, these days I'll often just think: "How can I best use your silent feedback to me to learn more about where I have weaknesses that can be addressed a little better?"

Another side to this phenomenon, that it's important to appreciate if you're astral/mental traveling or even just practising telepathy for its own sake, is as follows. There are emotional energy "walls", and thought "walls", and even awareness fields or bubbles or levels. These can be of various kinds. You may not always be able to penetrate many of them, or not easily, even if you're very skilled and experienced at it. Privacy is something that doesn't just exist in the conventional physical world -- though the higher the plane of reality, the less privacy there is, in many ways. Also, learning how to pierce or move through or not be fazed by such "walls" -- not see them as a "big deal" any more -- is a very important skill indeed, just in itself, and one that we all need to learn somewhat as part of what I call "energy work".

But getting back to privacy, if someone doesn't want you to be able to "read" them, they may create a barrier intended to stop you from doing so. Then you may have to work very hard to even begin to get through it. People instinctively know how to do this, and also how to drop any such barriers. We call this "being open", and it's what we do with our friends.

In my childhood, for various reasons I found it advisable to quite often "be invisible". Before being born I had chosen parents who could teach me about disharmony. So I entered this physical world to find two parents who were somewhat at war with each other, and only staying together for the sake of their kids. Plus I had an older brother who was in some ways a casualty from that conflict. By contrast, pre-school and primary school seemed such friendly places to me that it took me several years to understand the need to put up certain types of temporary walls or boundaries in certain situations there. In particular, although I was unusually tall at that age, for a time I got bullied because I wasn't interested in fighting back, and also because I was often perceived as a favorite of my teachers.

Telepathy is only one way of moving into greater oneness (at least, with another individual). As I've said, the fullest, truest knowledge seems to come through taking up temporary identity with, rather like using the "=" sign in mathematics. Now we're going a step or two deeper than any telepathy. But it's how the soul, the HM, knows anything. It's the gateway, the magic key, to all the higher planes. I've met (rare) people who claimed they could walk through solid (physical) walls, and I had no reason to doubt them. And I know a central part of their technique was to somehow "be one with the molecules of the wall".

TraineeHuman

7th August 2014, 02:15

One thing that's characterised all of my OB experiences -- whether through meditation or astral/mental projection or Nature or whatever -- has been a strong sense of greater intimacy with everything else, and everyone else. I guess that's how greater connectedness feels. Greater "being at one with". In a way it's spooky, but it also has a delightful side. Although it can feel slightly spooky, I guess that's because it's different from we're "normally" used to.

There's still a sense of oneself there in that intimacy. A sense of taking a unique slant on things. In this way, through all the connectedness there's also a reflection of one's connected self, to oneself. You could say that reflection is a bit like something coming from a high-powered lens or magnifying glass. You can choose to ignore it, but that spotlight on you is always there, that's for sure.

Eventually, on "the path", you find it's advisable not to ignore this. That soon means giving your support to a constant self-watching -- even (lightly, continually) in your everyday life, but also throughout much of any OB or supra-physical experiences. And that very watching actually keeps slowly dissolving away parts of the 'self" you had thought you were.

There are all sorts of treasures to be found in your Higher Self/Mind. But through self-watching you uncover the falseness in your everyday self -- which may be not what everyone wants to look at. Somehow or other, though, you have to get to the point where you admit that you've been a habitual liar all your adult life. Lying, exaggerating, focusing on "blaming" someone else for whatever area you subconsciously know that you, and not they, have a weakness in. You have to see and thoroughly know your shadow self.

You absolutely have to learn how to watch your everyday self without any judging. Like a scientist looking at the results of an experiment. Except, when you're watching your everyday self the results of that "experiment" are usually surprising. Very surprising. If you can laugh at yourself, at the junk your everyday self initially and for some time just keeps coming up with, on and on, that's great. That's being the observer -- of your everyday level.

For decades I used to greatly regret that my astrological chart has two ruling planets (and that's doubly so -- not only of my mid-heaven but also of my sun sign and rising sign). One of these is Neptune, the planet of Source, the ruler of true mysticism/spirituality and of true love and so on. All the highest things, if it's in its positive aspect. That ruler I liked. The other ruler of my chart, though, is Saturn, the planet of utter practicality. This is the planet of observation of the facts, including how a scientist goes about doing things. How I hated having this dour, sombre, serious planet co-ruling my everyday consciousness in this incarnation. How I hated when people would ask me if I was some kind of scientist. Admittedly, that wasn't so bad, because for every one person who did that there would be about two who wondered if I was some kind of creative artist, or who commented (usually favorably) about my "wild" imagination, but I knew they were thinking "wild equals good".

So, how can we find a truly satisying compromise between Spirit and Matter? We can't, because a compromise always involves a kind of backing down on both sides. So we need something more -- some kind of utmost intimate oneness joining the two. Only then can our inner life and our outer existence as individuals be satisfactorily reconciled.

Actually, we don't really find that in the Higher Mind, not fully. We only find it in total union with Source. There the Many and the One are in many ways the same thing. There individuality -- such as it is at that level -- involves being unable to ever lose the consciousness of its identity with all beings and also with Being itself, well beyond all time and space.

And it wasn't until I realized that the highest spirituality is also practical, that I thanked my stars that I have both those astrological rulers. That the ultimate of all that lovely and lovable Piscean transcendence into the highest ultimately gets trumped by descension, by the need to continually bring it all down into the physical and everyday ratty world, as much as one possibly can, and ever more and more fully. (Eek!)

This takes us back to self-watching and being honest about our junk. But we need that transcendence all the time too, for balance. It's only from a transcendent position, paradoxically, that we can see our everyday selves as how we truly are, see both the false and the noble sides and how the noble part can break through and triumph.

As Julian of Norwich said, the end of all our exploration will be to return to where we started, and know the place (and who/what we are) for the first time.

TraineeHuman

7th August 2014, 13:50

Teka (Highwhistller) has sent me a PM in which she admires the simple explanation of what consciousness is offered by one of the very top remote viewers in the world. Here's the short video in which he gives an explanation of how he sees consciousness:

http://youtu.be/19ZHOSU1_iw

My apologies if it's already been posted on the Forum in discussions of the Farsight Institute's RV project regarding 911. But what Teka found particularly interesting was what he said regarding consciousness.

Part of my take on consciousness is as follows. In this thread we have been considering the truth of supra-physical experience,which proves that there are indeed (many) higher worlds, higher planes of reality, which do exercise their influence on us in the world of our physical existence. People talk of laws of manifestation, and all sorts of such things.

But these higher worlds/planes are themselves just ways of seeing, just as our physical senses are just receiving instruments,kind of like how radios and TVs and cell phones are. And what is it that our physical senses, and all our higher "senses" receive? Consciousness, ultimately, and nothing else. They both receive it, and they receive through it too.

Consciousness in itself is beyond time and space and beyond definition. Consciousness is what makes time and space, among many other things, even possible.

Pure consciousness itself has states, though. Some of these are higher than others. Some are quite unknowable to the ordinary mind and senses -- not just unknown. And yet, we can know them, but only by truly becoming cosmic consciousness -- at least for sublime moments. I believe that's what "enlightenment" is all about at its lowest level.

But wait, there's more. Beyond all that again there's the infinite (many infinities). The miracle, though, is that even consciousness from this level in some ways connects into our limited finite world.

There's a heck of a lot more I can say about consciousness. This is just scratching the surface. It's not an easy topic to describe, though.

Highwhistler

7th August 2014, 16:25

This brief glossary is not about science. This is only an attempt to translate into words, my direct, subjective, continual, repeatable, first-hand experiences regarding the anatomy of the psychic-spiritual universe experienced in ordinary, everyday, full meditative awareness. You are welcome to have your own experiences that probably will be totally different than mine, to proclaim your own conclusions! -- and also to be neutral and to not arrive at any conclusions. I certainly feel that all of your experiences and ideas are equal to mine.

INTRO TO GLOSSARY —
4 CENTER-MOST IDEAS:
CREATION, CONSCIOUSNESS,
PRESENCE & ATTENTION
Part of a series of my essays titled "A MEDITATOR'S MULTIVERSE."

CREATION

Creation is everything in the so-called "physical universe" as well as all dimensions and other Universes, including all the inner universes of individual and collective thoughts, feelings, dreams, memories, imagination, inner movies, energies & psychic impulses ever experienced in the past, present ... as well as their potentials for expression in the future.

Creation is experienced by Presence through the consciousness that floats within and through it.

CONSCIOUSNESS

Consciousness is a media of expression for Creation.

At this point in time, consciousness is the main media of expression for Creation that is knowingly experienced by human Presences on Earth.

PRESENCE

You: the entity reading these words ... you are a Presence.

You-me-all of us ... we are non-physical, atmospheric, alive and spiritual Presences. We are part of Creation. Our Presences inhabit individual physical bodies, but also hovers throughout Creation. These are qualities and expressions of our most fundamental natures.

Symbolically speaking: only .001% of Presence makes an appearance in physical worlds. The true home of Presence and its dominant existence are in nonphysical quantum realms.

The Presence is like an absolutely clear cloud that is alive and awake, that lives within individual physical bodies -- it hovers around an individual's physical body -- but most of the Presence extends to the farthest realms of Creation, and throughout the quantum universe.

Universal consciousness floats through the Presence. Consciousness allows the Presence to be aware of Creation.

It is worth repeating again: You ... the entity reading these words ... you are a non-physical, atmospheric, spiritual Presence.

Presence has 3 focus areas: The Single Grand Presence, Presence Collectives, and Individualized Presence.

Most people think they are just an Individualized Presence ... but in truth they are all three. Many are clueless that we, at this point in time, are also The Single Grand Presence as well as Presence Collectives, simultaneously ... and all exist within our direct, first-hand, ongoing human experience, with the greatest of ease.

It appears to this mediator that the Presence has the potential and natural ability to travel from life-time to life-time, dimensions-to-dimension, universe-to-universe ... and ultimately: it is immortal. Again: this is only an "appearance" to me -- an intuition -- and I will let you know if and when my repeatable first-hand experiences, perspectives and beliefs change and are updated.

In the most fundamental sense ... you are me, and I am you.

ATTENTION

The attention is a non-physical organ that is attached to your Presence, or you might say is a part of your Presence. It allows the Presence to focus and experience the topics and consciousness that it's interested in.

Once again: universal consciousness floats within the quantum field-based being known as the Presence; and the Presence uses the attention to summon specific topics and realms of consciousness to appear before it, so that the Presence can experience the ideas, feelings, memories, energies, pulsations, perceptions, imaginative movies and visual qualities that are part of the thing or topic that it's interested in. (Remember: consciousness is a media of expression for Creation).

Please note that your Presence appears outwardly in the so-called "physical world" ... but it also appears in your thoughts, memories, feelings, imagination and psychic impulses throughout the vast inner universes that you experience. And you, the Presence, uses the attention to focus on things in the physical world, as well as "things" in the vast inner psychic ecosystem.

http://www.soulconnection.net/images/art1/sunflower_being_closeup1.jpg

annacherie

7th August 2014, 20:26

Hello Highwhistler :),

Can you please tell me why the butterfly in this image is located on the 5th chakra?- AC
26291http://projectavalon.net/forum4//forum4/images/misc/pencil.png[/QUOTE]

Highwhistler

7th August 2014, 20:52

Hello Highwhistler :),

Can you please tell me why the butterfly in this image is located on the 5th chakra?- AC

http://www.soulconnection.net/images/art1/sunflower_being_closeup1.jpg http://projectavalon.net/forum4//forum4/images/misc/pencil.png

For no reason what so ever.

I know nothing about chakras ... I've not studied them, I've not read articles about them, I've not paid attention to any teachers, gurus, healers who go on, and on, about the great and holy significance of chakras.

Decades ago, I truly left all the common, popular, spiritual stuff behind: All the teachings about so-called spiritually-significant things, centers of energy, ways to meditate, all spiritual-materialism, everything -- I kicked it all out of my life -- decades ago. But, I did fall in love with the Silence of the Universe, and in that love a unique path unfolded that allowed me to merge with, and become Silent.

And so I've been free and unattached from the status-quo spiritual concepts, groups, books, workshops, and beliefs as well. But I'll gladly talk about those things with friends who request my points of view.

When creating this visionary art image, all I did was follow my authtentic love for gardens, for children, for natural ecosystems, insects -- like butterflies, and orbs (that I've personally witnessed repeatedly) ... I put them all together in a state of love, creativity, wonder and kindness ... which I hope is reflected in this image.

Of course ... everyone is welcome to come to their own ideas and feelings about what my artwork means, and how it relates to them.

Thank you My Friend!

In peace & with blessings,

Highwistler

PS: One possible interpretation of the location of the butterfly, that some may make, is that it symbolizes the 5th chakra opening its wings and taking flight in all its colorful glory (the butterfly) ... and of course you can see that the child is calm, loving and caressed by a vibrant, quiet, peaceful and magical garden. It might be her own secret garden (with no bossy adults around) where she is free to enjoy and interact with life in her own intimate, heart-felt, innocent and original ways.

annacherie

7th August 2014, 21:31

I truly respect taking an eclectic perspective. I resonated to this because lately feel as though I have been asked to deepen my relationship to silence (thus the butterfly covering the mouth) and have found transformation in doing so yet paradoxically also through expressing myself!

Guess I just answered my own question :) thankyou!
with kind regards
Anna

animovado

7th August 2014, 22:38

Somehow Highwhistlers post reminded me on something Ken Wilber wrote. If you like to read it, here (http://in.integralinstitute.org/talk_infinity.aspx) is the site with some instructions to read the words.
For german speaking folks it's here (http://integralesleben.org/il-home/il-integrales-leben/meditation/meditation-interaktiv/).

And thank you TH for the descriptions of your personal live, including some of your astrological aspects. It helps to get a better picture, to sense a little more of your being. And an aspect of mine.

TraineeHuman

8th August 2014, 01:42

Thank you, animovado. Ken Wilber writes beautifully about who/what we all truly are .

I'm not denying that what he says is the truth. The trouble is, though, that our civilisation teaches us to live in lies. No doubt Ken Wilber and Teka and (I assume) you and I have learnt to live in the truth. And yes, it's beautiful. But the ordinary person, and even the spiritual "seeker", needs to slowly learn to observe and shed the cocoon of layer after layer of lies and denial they got hypnotised into living in and our parents called that growing up and becoming a person. To do this, they have to learn the art of knowing themselves, watching themselves. How do you quickly unravel a whole lifetime of brainwashing in falseness, and even of self-brainwashing that's gone on every minute? You don't do it quickly. The reason I've been emphasizing the importance of radical honesty with oneself about oneself, and intensively learning to know oneself and watch oneself without judging, is because I would like others to get to that beautiful space that Teka and I and presumably Ken and you are basking in. And to be able to have relationships with others and earn money and still not lose that connection, still not betray one iota of our being to the pit of dishonesty.

TraineeHuman

9th August 2014, 15:11

No doubt a major reason why people are interested in astral/mental projection or meditation (or being with Nature) is to somehow experience a fuller or higher way of being. My early experience was that astral projection was mostly very pleasurable for the first year or two because it was fun to experience being free of gravity, and to fly at great speeds -- almost instantly -- to wherever or whomever I wished.

Then I found that mental projection was more satisfying, but not so much like speed car racing. It was quieter and subtler. But I could look at or play out most of the emotional "movies" or the emotional games going on not only within myself but in others around me. Once I had played them out fully -- which in a few cases took quite a few years or even decades -- it was like I'd been released from imprisonment in those games. I guess that imprisonment had been rather like the way people find themselves with responsibilities to do with their family or their employment.

Beyond the mental projection level there was another layer of projection. This sometimes seemed to me to clearly involve travel through time -- or, to be more accurate, through time-space which is also space-time. I never learnt to control this. No doubt it would take years of (pleasurable?) practice to master it. Whenever I did it, I did see "landscapes" or repetitive structures, of one kind or another, that were always very much dominated by a bright orange color that also had a slight brownish tinge. I already knew this energy and that color. That's the aura of Gaia, in the form of the planetary consciousness. What I apparently found was that to time-travel you need to go through Gaia, and be taken not to the sun but to the galactic center. And there almost into formlessness.

The "time-travel" was rather weird because one could use it to travel anywhere through time-space. One could then "step down" and maybe startle some poor unsuspecting person at the time and location where one happened to step down off the bus -- presumably looking like some kind of ghost or ET to them? This maybe fits in with what physicists say about "folding" space-time as how one can travel at a speed faster than light. But as I say, I never learnt to control it -- just to "travel" in the most weird way, that felt like traveling through existence itself. This level, again, was and remains more satisfying to me than the ones below.

Above this there is a level which, again, is more satisfying than those below, but even less like teenage infatuation and even more like mature accepting love. This is a level of formlessness -- like pure "energy" in some quite non-physical sense of energy. Can you imagine -- or, rather, as Ken Wilber says, be -- "no shape", "no (defined) object" at all? The best exercise I know for learning to initially access this level is the exercise of feeling the aliveness, which I described initially in post #114. (This exercise is based on two of J. Krishnamurti's many lectures. In the early 1980s the late Barry Long had the insight to see that it wasn't just a way of seeing things but it could be turned into an extraordinary exercise -- for those who are ready!)

At this level of OB/meditation experience (well, in the third level up within this), I can vouch it's possible to quickly shed many of the judgments about yourself that you unknowingly hold. There are no polarities/dualities there, and therefore no judgments -- or, at least, judgments turn into mere fictions, or empty shells there. It's no exaggeration to say that these control most of your perceptions of "how life treats you" and so on. It's also no exaggeration at all to say that those judgments are precisely what keeps you trapped in the wheel of compulsory reincarnation into the physical.

Once you're in the formless levels or higher, you're drawing on the Void, which is Source, or pure Being, or full Presence. But there are still degrees to which you are able to do this -- or, rather, it "does" you (in a good sense). And you're only in true union with Source, with full Being, when "you" go beyond the subject/object distinction.

That beyond isn't as unfamiliar to us as we might like to believe. More like literally zillions of best friends, and plenty of laughs to overflowing, and freedom from any tears or suffering and all that. And endless possibilities.

At that point, as Teka says, you can happily forget about methods, traditions, teachers, and all the rest of it.

Some famous child-psychology experiments have proved that up until the age of eight months or so, most children see themselves as being the entire Universe, as pure Being. Or, to reproduce Ken Wilber's delightful description that animovado kindly directed us to in her recent post, how they see themselves is like this (except that they haven't learnt to conceptualize it as yet):

Ken Wilber • From You to Infinity in 3 Pages

What I am going to do in the following is simply "describe" the nondual Self right now as it is immediately seen.  The following is stream of consciousness, so forgive any goofs. Simply relax your mind and read the following easily (if a sentence immediately makes sense, fine, if not, just keep lightly reading):
What you have been seeking is literally and exactly That which is reading this page right now. That Self cannot be found because it was never lost: you have always known you were you. That I AMness is a constant condition of all that arises, is the space in which it all arises, has nothing outside of it and thus is complete Peace, and radiates its own beauty in all directions. John arises in the space of that I AMness, John arises in this vast spaciousness, this pure openness. John is an object, just like a tree or a cloud that arises in the space of the Self that you are.  I am not talking to John right now, I am talking to you. That which is aware of John is this ever-present Self. This Self is aware of John arising right now. This Self is God. God is reading this page. John is not reading this page, God is reading this page. The Self is aware of John and aware of this page. You are not John. You are what is aware of John. What is aware of John is an I AMness that itself cannot be seen but only felt, felt as an absolute certainty, unshakeable is-ness, I AM that I AM eternally, timelessly, unendingly. There is only this I AMness in all directions. Everything arises spontaneously in the space of this great perfection that is the Self, which is reading this page right now.
And you, John, are that Self. You have always known that you are this Self. There was never a time that you did not know that you are you.  You can never remember a time when you were not you. The only thing you can ever remember is something that this Self did. There is only this Self. You cannot reach out for it because it is that which is doing the reaching. You cannot see it because it is doing the seeing right now, which means, everything simply arises in its awareness: the entire world arises in your awareness right now. You are that space in which it is all spontaneously and effortlessly arising. You are that One. You have always been that One. There is only that One. Do not pretend you are finding that One. Do not pretend you have forgotten that One. The only thing you have ever known, the only thing you can ever remember, the only thing you are actually feeling right now is that One: the is-ness, now-ness, suchness of everything, just as it is, and as it is arising within your Self—the simple feeling of Being, which is all you ever feel always.

Look at the clouds: they are arising in your awareness: they are arising in you. The clouds are outside of John but inside of your Self.  Look at your body and this room.  Your body is in this room, but both the body and the room arise IN your awareness. You are literally holding them in your consciousness lovingly. The mountains are arising in your awareness: they are arising in you, and you are lovingly holding the mountains within your consciousness, holding the arising world within your embrace as the dearly radiant beloved. The mountains are arising outside of John but inside of your Self. The clouds, the mountains, and John are all simultaneously and effortlessly arising in this Self, the reader of this page. All that is arising is arising in this unshakeable I AMness, which is not a thing or an object or a person, but the openness or clearing in which all things and all objects and all persons are arising. This emptiness, this openness, this vast spaciousness is your Self, is what you have always been, is what you are before your parents were born, is what you are before the Big Bang happened. Before Abraham was, I AM. There is no before and no after for this now-ness that is the Self. There is only this now-ness of the Self that is reading this page in this very moment. There is no past and no future in this never-ending now.  All befores and all afters arise in this awareness. There is only this ever-present, never-starting, never-ending, unborn, undying, radiant beauty that is aware of this page, that is aware of this universe, and that finds all of them IN the space that it is, and therefore all things arise in the unshakeable Peace that holds them all easily in its caring within. John is in the universe; the universe is in your Self.
Therefore, be this ever-present Self who is reading this page. I am not talking to John, I am talking to you. Let John arise and fall like all objects. Let John come into being, remain a bit, and pass: what has this to do with your Self? All objects arise, remain, and pass in the spaciousness and emptiness that is aware of this moment, and this moment, and this moment, and this moment.  Yet this moment has no end, you have never actually felt the present come to an end because it never does: it is the only thing that is real: this now-ness, this simple feeling of being, the very same feeling-awareness in which this page floats, and in which John floats, and in which the clouds float. When you feel this present now-ness, there is nothing outside of it—you cannot see on the outside of this timeless now because there is nothing outside of it. Now and now and now is all you ever know, and this now-ness is simply another name for the spacious Self in which the entire kosmos arises as a radiant, joyful, ecstatic swoon of bliss and a desire to share this infinite Joy with somebody else.
Because this page and the mountains and the clouds all arise in your awareness, there is nothing outside your Self. That there is literally nothing outside your Self means there is literally nothing that can threaten it.  Since you know this Self, you know Peace.  Because you are already, directly, immediately, and intimately one and identical with That which is reading this page right now, you know God right now, directly and immediately and unmistakably and undeniably. And because you know God right now, as the very Self reading this page, you know you are finally, truly, deeply home, a home that you have always directly known and always pretended you didn't.
Therefore, pretend no more. Confess that you are God. Confess that you are Beauty. Confess that you are the very Truth the sages have sought for centuries. Confess that you are Peace beyond understanding. Confess that you are so ecstatically happy that you had to manifest this entire world just to bear witness to a radiant beauty you could no longer contain only in and for yourself. Confess that the Witness of this page, the Self of this and all the worlds, is the one and only true Spirit that looks through all eyes and hears with all ears and reaches out in love and compassion to embrace the very beings that it created itself in an eternal ecstatic dance that is the secret of all secrets. And confess that you are Alone, that you are literally the only One in the entire universe: there are no others to this One. There are indeed others to John, but both John and the others arise in the awareness that is reading this page, and this awareness, this Self, has no other because all others arise in it. One without a second is what is reading this page.
Therefore, be that One. And also give my love to John.
Ken

p.s. Do you realize, deeply, deeply, deeply, that the one who is reading this page is the one who wrote it, yes? John, and Ken, and this page, all arise in the Witness of this page, yes? The Self is not hard to find, but impossible to escape. So drop all this fuss about finding and losing, and simply be the One in whom all worlds are now arising. So go outside and look at the beautiful world arising within your very own feeling-awareness, arising within your very own Being, and then, you know, go have a beer or something....

The truth is, they lose that consciousness of pure Being and total Oneness, but until early adolescence most remain very honest about whatever they're directly feeling at each moment. After that, "civilization". But Nature, of course, has scant respect for human "civilization". So if you go to a place where Nature hasn't been completely interfered with, you'll feel at least something of the essence of pure Being there too.

TraineeHuman

10th August 2014, 11:43

"The infinite" is something that's ever so greatly misunderstood. Mystics from pretty much every culture and time period have experienced it directly, and often -- particularly if it was safe to do so in their time and culture -- have tried to tell others of it. But to anyone who hasn't had the direct experience, the words convey only the concept -- which falls very far short of the All!

And don't forget that the All also includes the unknowable -- and certain mystics most certainly experience even that also, somehow. Or, at least, they certainly experience the fact of unknowability and the fact of how it's so much vaster than what's knowable -- and somehow they experience all this integrated into one whole with everything else.

Infinity doesn't live by the "rules" of knowability or expressibility. Let's suppose you allow that there is such a thing as infinity (or, indeed, many infinities). Then it's easy to jump to the conclusion that its (at least partial) independence from, and in many ways superiority (at least in "size") to the knowable Multiverse, must be a rejection of the Multiverse. It's not a rejection, but it may certainly seem so. Imagine it sustaining the imperfect world but being inactive in it, without a hint of duality within itself. Imagine something being more real than the Multiverse.

Then it may well seem like Silence, like Stillness, in comparison.

Here we have the dilemma of those who have been "blinded by the sun", as I have also been, and at a youngish age. It's like the dilemma of Plato's Cave, or of Flatland (which is a mathematical story about a world which has length and breadth but no depth, and where no-one wants to accept it's possible that such a thing as depth, and a superior reality, could exist).

TraineeHuman

14th August 2014, 00:57

One way to begin to describe how the Infinite (or Source) is different from the highly conditioned, highly limited version of so-called reality we're taught by our society, is through some simple examples of a mathematical kind. I guess the most basic idea we have about infinity is that it has no beginning and no end. Like a straight line that goes on forever:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________

(Well, I don't know how to get the web software to get rid of the gaps in this line, but you know what I mean anyway.)

Imagine the line above actually does keep going on forever, beyond the page at both ends.

Actually, there's the microscopic infinite as well. (There's also the qualitative infinite, but for now let's stay with the quantitative infinte.) By the microscopic infinite, I simply mean there's an infinite number of points between any two points on the above line, any two points you like. There are many infinities.

Anything that has a beginning (which that line extending forever on both sides doesn't have, horizontally speaking) involves an action/movement/force/cause -- whichever of those you like, and in fact all of them. That's a foundational feature in all the finite "worlds" (they're not really worlds because they're all contained within infinities).

One way that an infinite world often differs from a finite "world" is that forces and actions are far, far less of a big deal there. That's because they get swallowed up by and in something more total, more connected -- a much, much bigger picture. People ask why Source allows evil and disaster to exist. But they don't realize that Source impartially sees many bigger pictures of what's going on than what they see, and Source is primarily interested in Truth and in making them stronger, over the course of eternity.

Let's look at that line again, with some labels added for some points on that line:

__________Z______A_______________B___________C______________________________________________________ _______________

Because the line is infinitely long, the section from, say, A to B is an infinitely small slice. Ditto the sections Z to A and B to C. If we think of the section from A to B as a "force" beginning at A, that's really just a continuation of a different force, the one from Z to A. And that's a continuation of ..., and so on to infinity. I hope this casts light on how, from the infinite point of view, in one sense forces or actions don't even exist. Because they've all been swallowed up into something bigger.

How do we describe that "something bigger"? Well, that would take a lot more explaining. Of course, it's what mystics (and I) have directly experienced, and continue to experience. Call it (full) Presence, Oneness, the Void, and so on.

People like to assume that the mathematical infinite isn't and can't be real. For instance, we can grow a certain number of oranges on the planet, but of course that will be a finite number. It may perhaps be determinate, and dependent on a variety of circumstances, but still it would most certainly be finite. That's true at a physical level. But at an only slightly higher level, that of concepts, the simple concept of "(keep) add(ing) one more" already implies the existence of infinitely more -- conceived oranges, or whatever else you like to have a concept of.

In this way, in the conceptual level of reality the concept of infinitely many (oranges, or anything else) is already implicitly there, underlying everything. Which is a little like how the Infinite is the source and ground of everything that's finite or limited. It's a bit like that straight line that goes on infinitely at either end exists first, and only then can there be finite segments of it, such as between A and B above.

Why is this significant? Because freedom from unhappiness happens to be the same thing as having an underlying very strong sense or feeling or knowing within you that you are indeed infinite. It's as simple as that.

chocolate

14th August 2014, 06:09

TH, in a way your last post sheds light on the concept why it is important for the single person to accept (at first), and experience (later on) OBEs or astral projection. We -- most of us -- have lived, and still live, in a reality in which we are bound by the quality of our own mind/logic-bound perception. I sometimes wonder if people really believe that 3000 years ago our minds and bodies were working exactly in the same way as they work today? What if we were to assume our mind perception which shapes our view to the world can be set to have different 'parameters of perception'? Then we will be experiencing everything tainted or tinted by those specific parameters, and we possibly will be thinking of what is finite and infinite differently.

When I was a kid I liked looking at the ants while they were crawling on the ground. There came the moment when my dad told me that their life is shorter than the human life, but for them doesn't seem as such, because time works or flows differently from their perspective.

I simply explain it to myself that everything depends on the scale and the point of view, and on the perception parameters. In that sense for me everything is possible, and I also can sense infinity based on the comparison with my finite size and my finite life. Life flows from my perspective in one way, but the same life shared with an ant flows differently for the ant.
( Sorry for the example, don't mean to compare apples with oranges, but it seemed as a good exaggeration to illustrate my POV. )

Now, we have lived 'finite', brain-logic-based for so long that perhaps we have reach the point of completing that stage and moving onto the next one. I was led to believe now has come the time to start accepting another possibility -- the possibility of a bit higher perspective, one that is more close to the infinite, source, the unconditional world of ' love', etc. The world of 'seeing' life through a more expanded consciousness, through extra sensory perception, or what you may also call it through astral projection and OBEs. In that way, keeping what we already have and know - seeing the world through the external senses, we could integrate the hard evidence of science with the soft evidence of internal sensing, and that would shape our new perception of reality.

If I haven't managed to express what I wanted I can recommend few videos done based on Rudolf Steiner's work. They helped me realize what was inside of me, but couldn't be formulated prior to watching those videos.
If anyone is interested I can point to those videos, but for now don't want to derail the train of thought here.

TraineeHuman

15th August 2014, 00:22

I can recommend few videos done based on Rudolf Steiner's work. They helped me realize what was inside of me, but couldn't be formulated prior to watching those videos.
If anyone is interested I can point to those videos, but for now don't want to derail the train of thought here.

I haven't read any of Steiner's writings, but if the videos you mention are helpful in enabling people to develop their inner sensing or perception in some way, chocolate, then please don't feel inhibited at all about posting those videos. We appreciate that the realization of the Infinite may be a further stage on the inward journey into discovering what we really are, and of discovering that the entire finite worlds are just the products of the ordinary mind. And videos are more fun to watch. Also, if those videos helped you so much to understand your inner self, they may be equally helpful to someone else. I'm still blown away by how good the videos with Rupert Spira were that you recently posted in the Demystifying the Apple thread.

annacherie

15th August 2014, 13:56

Hello :) - Rudolph Steiners' book "Higher Worlds and their Attainment" was the first book I reached for when deciding to go cosmonauting-still haven't finished it for picking up Buhlmans' books but I trust Steiner for safe navigation and would be very interested in the videos chocolate :) . Visuals make material more accessible to me. Going to Demystifying the Apple thread now :) -thx TH!

chocolate

15th August 2014, 18:36

Hi, Annacherie and TraineeHuman.
Thank you for your kind words.

Here I am posting the first video from a 12-part series on the Egyptian mysteries.

Part 1 of 12: WXEltNQTB20
The whole playlist: http://youtu.be/WXEltNQTB20?list=PL81362E07CA27CB52

I will do a new thread with more of the videos I have discovered.

I hope you will enjoy the time spent with his words.
Chocolate

Edited: One probably needs to see most if not all of the 12 videos mentioned here, together with some from 'Inner Impulses of Evolution'.
Helpful also are 'Challenge of Rudolf Steiner" in 2 parts.
Basically, I have seen/heard everything I could find. This happened in the span of several days -- the most uplifting several days during my stay out of the forum.

TraineeHuman

16th August 2014, 04:32

I've played the 12 videos, chocolate, and found it a pleasant and stimulating experience throughout. It's been that for me primarily because Steiner continually seeks to paint the biggest, broadest picture of human pre-history and history -- incorporating everything that was going on at a supra-physical level. Many of his insights are ingenious. His breadth of vision is quite often mind-blowing. We see in detail how a prophet can be more than any mere historian.

Then again, it seems very clear to me that some of his theories or explanations, however ingenious or insightful, are just his own guesses, and in some cases happen to be wrong. For instance (second video) some members of this Forum are well aware that there's undeniable evidence that the moon is two billion years older than the earth, its rocks are demonstrably two billion years older. And therefore, despite what Steiner claims, the logical conclusion is that it was towed here or otherwise flung into its current position -- rather than having been joined to the earth by the hip from birth, so to speak. Yes, it's true, for example, that the moon has denser energies than the earth while the sun has less dense energies than the earth. It doesn't take extraordinary psychic perception for a person to be able to notice that. But Steiner then weaves his own theory to explain in detail why that's so, and what sorts of beings are connected with those places, and I'm not the only one who considers Steiner's story to almost certainly be inaccurate.

My response to quite a few of the things he claims is "maybe". He may be right and he may be wrong, though what he says is often fascinating either way. For instance, in the first video he claims there'll be seven post-Atlantean ages of human life on this planet, and that we're currently in the fifth. He claims the first age was the culture of the Vedas (though my own clairvoyant research -- and direct memory of my own interactions all from a position essentially off-planet during that time -- reveals quite clearly to me that humans have been on the planet for about a million and a quarter years, though they looked more like the sasquatch/yowie in the past, but Steiner is right to say that everyone used to have and see a huge, glowing etheric body (golden in color, during the golden ages) but my memory says they went through some cycles of golden ages and other ages, rather than being in a golden age all the time right up to and including the Atlantean age, as I think Steiner apparently believed).

He claims his seventh age will be a kind of higher reprise of the Vedic culture, with certain differences. Well, partly from reading between the lines of the Vedas it seems indubitably clear to me that the Vedic culture progressed from a culture relying on the discoveries of pure reason to something superior. This is the opposite direction of development to what Steiner claims -- which sure makes me wonder how carefully he read the Vedas. The "pure reason" culture would have been similar to modern science. The superior culture it progressed to was clearly one where they learned how to use the intuition (including clairvoyance) very, very accurately to gain and develop knowledge. Most of my posts in this thread have been aimed at coaxing or awakening at least the beginnings of such intuition, and of all that goes with it. I certainly believe (and would claim to know) that what will save humanity is not a second coming of Jesus, but intuition, and all that implies. I guess the transition into an age of accurate intuition (which doesn't abandon pure reason either) could conceivably be delayed by the presence of AI. So Steiner may have been right, if we'll need to wait for that or some other distractions to be overcome first.

Still, I've seen what I consider much overhyping of what AI is capable of. From my experiences with this thread, it seems clear to me that the big problem could be that the ego subtly but powerfully controls the ordinary mind and pure reason. And it does that in such a way as to use pure reason to totally deny and camouflage its own presence and influence over the perception of its bearer.

I almost hesitate to even comment about what Steiner says regarding the Gods. Partly because I don't want to overemphasize the negative points, the criticisms of Steiner, when I do find the videos delightful to watch. The other reason I'm hesitant is that I've read so much nonsense in the Forum regarding the Gods, from individuals who've no doubt never encountered or experienced them. For one thing, Steiner seems to fail to distinguish between the benevolent Gods and the demonic beings. The latter are presumably the same as the Archons. But Steiner seems quite ignorant that "Jahweh" is one of these, and also known as "Satan" or "Lucifer". Steiner says that in Atlantean times everyone could see the Gods. Well, I've sometimes seen and even conversed with some of the benevolent Gods. I've also slightly researched who the benevolent Gods are and where they reside. Because the guardian angels and others recognize me as a guardian angel of reasonably senior rank, on one occasion I was taken on a kind of tour, where it was shown and explained to me that the benevolent Gods are at the topmost "rung" of the guardian angel hierarchy. In other words, they are very, very senior guardian angels, though they don't work with individuals but rather with issues and energies affecting humanity as a whole -- at a supra-physical level. Plus, I was shown that the benevolent Gods have all undergone the enormous sacrifice of suffering many human incarnations and nevertheless prevailing to reach a state of great liberation. I take it Simon Parkes' information is generally accurate, and I take it he would want to classify each of these beings as Mantid or Reptoid or as from certain Humanoid "races" such as Lyran or Pleidean. But they are just beings. Surely, in OB planes from 6D on up we only experience beings as pure beings, and this "racism" may be relevant in the sense that different beings have had a history of living in the physical as part of one "race" or another. But the point is, the greatest benevolent Gods have lived extensively as earth humans, and been extraordinarily heroic in that they've done everything required to achieve true liberation while in physical form. They are very few in number, because that's so tough to do.

chocolate

16th August 2014, 08:29

Auch.
I actually don't take his words too literally, but mostly conceptually.
And as have been said to me, I suffer from a lack of spiritual education, which can be of real benefit sometimes.
:)

What I personally liked about his research and vision, having in mind that I sensed I share his understanding of the nature of reality, is the attempt to give some partially logical partially intuitive explanation of the greater and deeper aspects of life, and not what our pure science and pure philosophy give us.
For example when we try to point to age of moon or Earth, I think our understanding is far, far off. I would be afraid to believe any actual age in terms of human years, tens or billions. But as I have said, I have a bit of a different understanding of how this whole thing works.

He has much more information shared, regarding Christ for example, and regarding the 'invisible' aspect of life to which we are not accustomed to, but probably you have having spent time in those realms.
One of the reasons I wanted to go OBE was exactly to find out how those worlds look like, if they can be called worlds, because they can be a version of our own (or of the one with the higher perspective) imagination/mind/thinking/perception.

As I have mentioned many times, I am not so much interested in what is of Earth or of non-Earth (ET) origin ( especially when Gods are concerned ) since it is all a matter of interpretation and understanding. In my view the whole concept will have to be reevaluated and put on some better and more concrete background. One day in the future far, far away. ;P

TH, I will not comment on RS here any longer, because I sensed this can turn into a discussion in the wrong place. So for now I will enjoy what I enjoy, and if I feel in the right state of mind I will start the new thread with more information on Rudolf Steiner. I haven't done this because of lack of time and energy, and also because I always end up having a different view on things, and having a discussion with myself I can do mentally instead of writing it down on the forum.

TraineeHuman

16th August 2014, 09:15

I always end up having a different view on things, and having a discussion with myself I can do mentally instead of writing it down on the forum.

Yes, listen to and follow your intuition, your inner voice --since you can hear it so clearly --, because that's the voice of your soul, and it won't betray you.

TraineeHuman

17th August 2014, 02:00

Paradoxically, the Infinite lives independently of the world we commonly know. This is because it's so much "more", so much utterly different, has so much that's mostly or totally inexpressible in ordinary world terms.

And yet the ordinary, physical world we live in is completely dependent on the Infinite for its existence. The physical world has no option but to conform to the "as above, so below" principle: anything to do with the true essence of Truth, Love, understanding, Presence, and so on is in conformity with what comes from the Infinite.

On the other hand, it's certainly not always true that "as below, so above". It's certainly not the case that the physical world is a holographic fragment of the Infinite. The physical world is a hologram, at least in certain senses. But Infinity isn't a hologram. Infinity is the Source, the Projector that ultimately creates the holograms. It's free of everything else. It's pure freedom.

The big question to explore, then, is just what relationship does the ordinary world have to the Beyond? It's impossible for us to answer that question completely, but maybe that's why Source invented such a dense and limited world as the physical. In the physical, we get to explore the answer to the above question in a limited way, making it easier for us all to progress beyond that later.

And what a shock it is for the ordinary mind that first time we pass through the gates and into a space without flaw or duality whatsoever. How unreal we then suddenly see the world, the universe, that we thought we knew, really is by comparison! How mind-blowing to discover that all energies whatsoever just get born in and flow out of an Infinite well of utter Peace.

That Peace doesn't reject the limited world, either. No, it sustains it. It's only the ordinary, limited mind that wants to see everything in terms of opposites. Anything that's "other" to that mind must be rejecting it and therefore the version of reality that it sees -- well, that's what that mind can't help but believe.

This is why I've said that I consider the more important OB experience is of reality beyond time and space -- and even, I would add, beyond the opposites of finite and infinite! (Paradoxically, it still leaves you within the Infinite -- but also seeing and experiencing the finite. Voila. We're left with living the true spiritual life within this physical world.)

If I you'll excuse me for quoting myself in a previous post, let me add:

Any description of Source is always going to be partial, and therefore misleading. You have to have had at least some experience of being Source. Then you can say: “I see what you mean by that description. But, there’s more to Source than what your description covers.” Or as the famous Hindu saying goes: “It’s neither this, nor that.” In other words, it’s more a matter of what is left over once you’ve subtracted all the known. And you have to do that subtracting before you see that yes, there’s an awful lot left over.

I do of course appreciate, though, that many have simply not been "bitten by", or haven't unambiguously experienced/been Infinity. And that they therefore honestly need to assume that all this is potentially nonsense until confirmed to be otherwise in their own experience. When I was fourteen, one of the ways it became particularly clear to me that I must be experiencing the Infinite was when I did mantra meditation -- which is also the most common traditional way to go into astral projection. I usually kept my eyes open (or half-open) during any kind of meditation. When I repeated a mantra, I quickly found that it seemed like the physical environment around me was saying the mantra over and over rather than just me saying it in my mind. (This also happens if I do t'ai chi or qi gong.) What I also soon found was that the size of the physical area around me that seemed to be saying the mantra grew bigger and bigger, until it extended indefintely beyond the horizon. At that point I also found myself seeing things that must have been 4D or some higher D, because the 3D physical things then looked inexplicably hollow and transparent, and it was clear that other Forces were moving through tem at will. Not long after that, it seemed to me that the only logical conclusion was that I was in contact with "energies" that transcended the limits of the 3D world in such a way that there were no physical boundaries that could contain them. At least in that sense, it was very clear to me that these "energies" were infinite (unbounded) at least relative to the physical world.

annacherie

17th August 2014, 12:02

animovado

17th August 2014, 22:07

TraineeHuman

18th August 2014, 06:31

Paradoxically, the Infinite lives independently of the world we commonly know.

When the Infinite is independent of the world, how can it be that It is it's creator?
Is the Perfection capable of creating imperfection? This is truly a mystery and I'm prone
to the assumption that it's not possible. But what does that mean and what can we gain,
when we're following this line of thought further?

Maybe this would lead to the understanding that it is a very tough job to be Atlas,
because to uphold the world would mean to accomplish the impossible.
This would force him to his knees, sooner or later.
Thank God!

Well, there are many things I could say in response to these questions -- and have already done in detail some time ago (around July 2013) in this thread when I was explaining how come it's OK, from Source's point of view, that evil is allowed to exist. But in addition to those, let me say Source doesn't "create", or, rather, facilitate the world in some kind of causal way, nor as some kind of movement as we normally think of movement -- as I thought I briefly explained in post #1728 above.

The finite worlds are largely self-creating. Source provides something like "tools" and support, but would not dare be some kind of cosmic Dictator. Source is much more experimental and informal even in what seem like crazy or random ways, and interested in unlocking the finite worlds' latent freedom, and facilitating their own discovery and development and their own maximization of such freedom.

Let me quote from one of my posts regarding Source and the problem of evil from July 2013:

... what “God” has “created for us” is basically good – though admittedly far from perfect.

My second argument starts from the fact – as far as I and many others are concerned on the basis of experience – that the only “(ultimate) God” is the universe (not only the physical universe, but all nonphysical dimensions). So, the truth is there never was such a thing as a God who “created this world”. And to blame “God” “personally” for “His creation” becomes nonsensical.

There is no “God” standing totally outside the universe. If there were such a being, that would be incredibly extraordinary and miraculous. How would such a being – so isolated from all – ever be able to communicate with the entire universe? But anyway, because God (i.e., Source) is the universe in its entirety, any suffering or evil inherent in the universe is self-inflicted by the universe. No-one is alone. Source feels every bit of suffering.

Thirdly, I suggest the whole distinction between “creator” and “creature” is a false one. Actually, we created and continue to create ourselves and our own lives. We just don’t know our own subconscious and superconscious strength. If we are in great suffering, it is we who ultimately put ourselves in it – maybe our Higher Mind did this, and so we don’t have a memory right now of choosing it. But choose it we most certainly did. Source didn’t choose it – except in so far as Source lives inside of us.

Since Source is the Whole, and since any organic whole is greater than the sum of all its parts, it follows that Source in itself is separate from, and "other than" any of its parts, and hence inevitably has an independence from them. Though as I said in the above quote, the independence is far from "total". Yes, you're right, animovado: there's no such thing as total independence. I agree, animovado, it's very paradoxical. Source is partly independent, particularly because it is Infinite, but also, and equally, it's partly entangled with the finite worlds too, and waiting for them to hopefully become infinite too.

(annacherie: great points in your last post too! I'll post a response tomorrow.)

TraineeHuman

20th August 2014, 03:15

In the midst of listening to the RS videos (still pondering the first 4) I am struck by a couple of concepts that hopefully might introduce relevant discussion on this thread. The first being the idea suggested of "immaculate conception" or that which could possibly be formed from OBE sex? (1st video when he was interpreting the madonna painting and there implying physical birth of a child (albeit immaculately conceived)but the questioning arising around it suggested other possibilities-which begs the question what are those possibilities? For example, would this experience give rise to a Kundalini awakening or maybe conceiving of a seed form for future soul incarnation?

annacherie, there are a whole number of partly interconnected topics implied here. Firstly, regarding "OB sex". This doesn't normally lead to "immaculate conception", which I'll talk about further below. But not long after I first began regular (conscious) astral travel as an adult, I was aware of someone of the opposite sex, also OB, offering to demonstrate to me that there was an astral equivalent of sex and it was no big deal. She then briefly showed me how it was a kind of temporary merging and I kind of electrical interchange and it was certainly very pleasant but not spectacular because it lacked strong sensuality. This is something everyone does each night with their friends of either sex etc but usually they don't remember doing that. It's fun and harmless, and it recharges you with energy, and seems to balance your energies a little.

On the other hand, as an adolescent or adult I had found that my sexual relationships with women naturally included an astral sensual component which I found was far more satisfying than the physical sensual side of lovemaking, and which would sometimes continue for a number of hours after physical lovemaking had ceased.

There is also a trap here, in that the lower levels of the astral are actually more intensely sensual places than the physical world is. The trap only exists if a person goes to one of those levels through fantasizing. In fact, my understanding is that it happens to be the case that the only way astral projection can ever be dangerous or harmful is when it involves any fantasizing -- which may be easier said than done, I guess. That includes sexual fantasizing. This is also closely connected to why I have gigantically huge concerns about the use of any kind of visualization or "affirmations" as a means to astral projection. I would have thought one would already need to be at a post-beginner type of level to be able to "visualize" in a way that involves no fantasizing. Also, the whole notion that "through astral projection or lucid dreaming you can create and experience any [so-called] 'reality' you like" is, unfortunately, dangerous for the same reason.

I used to have a spiritual teacher who firmly insisted one should never fantasize about sex. In fact, that one should normally not even think about sex unless one had an appropriate partner present. I believe that these days I understand why he said that. All fantasizing about sex is an activity of the ego (plus it can open up access for lower astral beings of an unpleasant and exploitative kind). The problem is, the ego knows that the closest thing it can experience to (integrated) bliss is intense pleasure. And that that can most easily be achieved by it through sexual fantasizing. The ego therefore fights tooth and nail to hang onto sexual fantasizing -- which, I believe, in itself is a degraded part of "sexuality", unless one is largely free of the ego, unfortunately.

Unless and until an individual is in regular touch with their Higher Mind / soul, the ego knows that the ego's intense pleasure is the closest the individual can come to experiencing bliss. In this way the ego exercises huge leverage over the individual, and this is its trump card (along with the card of exercising power in some way). The ego's strong investment in fantasizing (including about sex) needs to be (eventually) destroyed and replaced with something better, and that's a long process. It's a process of depriving the ego of the strongest card it's got. Otherwise the complete or more integral change can't occur within you. Then all you can get is a premature pulling down of the higher Forces. These may be too strong for the flawed and impure material of Nature. No doubt this is part of what Jesus means in the statement that you can't pour new wine into old bottles.

Now, let me move from the ego to the other end of the spectrum, and give some suggestions about what I understand this "immaculate conception" business is ultimately to do with. An individual who has fully realized the Infinite, which is the Divine, will be able, by themselves, to create a new physical body for themselves pretty much at will. I suspect they wouldn't even need to be gestated in and born from a womb, necessarily. Let me try to explain a little about how this would be.

Well, first, perhaps, I should point out that the transformation of our own being by the Higher Mind is a gradual process. The change needs to be worked out separately in each part of ourselves, in its own nature and character. Otherwise the change that comes from the descension of the soul / Higher Mind might not be accepted by our till then lower being, and it won't get integrated into us. It would seem partial and imposed to us, an imposition from outside, an intrusion, which we'll reject. Or else we may partially accept it but misuse the greater Forces that the HM brings as part of itself. I've already talked quite a lot in this thread about descension. But I feel it's appropriate -- well, ethically required, perhaps -- to preface my remarks about "immaculate conception" at least by saying the following. We need to call in the Higher power of the HM to transform us, because otherwise, as we are we'll never be liberated or fulfilled or happy. But we need to temporarily let go of such things as the ordinary mind and also our natural drives and urges. Quite a few spiritual people and groups get into extraordinary asceticism or strictness of lifestyle to achieve this. But really, it should ultimately be a temporary "asceticism", until the HM has truly descended (which can take years, though).

Yes, for instance, the ordinary mind is quite unable to realize whatever high ideals it may aspire to. It's far too lost in compromises, and deductions, and opposite extremes, in divisions, in a will that's always either divided or compulsively obsessed, and even just plain ineptness. What's genuinely logical is to put first things first -- to quote the late Barry Long. Whenever you're doing that, you're using the Higher Mind.

The powers of the Higher Mind, as they descend or begin to descend, undergo a kind of inheriting of the incapacity of the ordinary mind and of the person's natural drives and urges and life-force. They can't achieve their own full power because of the presence of such (relatively) shoddy material. The result is a much smaller transformation of the individual than what will (we trust) eventually develop. I'm not denying that even this initial change is often extraordinary and seems spectacular and radical to the individual, and often seems to them like a total conversion, even though it's not. But beyond that point the individual needs to call on the total intervention of his/her Higher Mind, and totally surrender to that.

Having said that, and clarifying a little just how radical the first descension -- of the Higher Mind fully into the physical body and being -- is, I can now say a tiny bit more about the second descension. As I've explained earlier in this thread, the second descension is that of Source, the Infinite, also totally into the physical body, eventually. But it's a physical body which has already been radically turned inside out, so to speak.

My understanding is that once that second descension has been fully completed (and we're leaving out volumes of details here, about the most extraordinary journey possible for a human being), certain things will be true. There'll be the most extraordinary "marriage" of the Infinite with the physical universe. At that point, within that individual, the Infinite will have an extraordinarily full understanding of how the physical universe works, including its interconnections with all higher dimensions. How to describe this? In my last post I was saying that Source is beyond the ordinary mind's comprehension. It can't be put into a box. It doesn't conform to being totally consistent; but neither is it totally inconsistent.

Anyway, there's a borderland area where the uppermost mental world and the lowest of the formless worlds intersect a little. I used to be fascinated for years with visitingthis area, and still find it a wonderful place. the place where most forms go from a "seed" stage to quickly being born.

Basically, the lowest of the formless worlds is a world made up of ideas, in the original sense of "idea" -- not concepts, but the wordless energy that kind of solidifies into a concept once you've managed to find a picture or describe or tag it with. (I've also described this particular formless world as the world of intentions and intensionality -- such as in posts around May 2013.)

Someone into whose physical body the Divine has fully descended will have a mastery of how all these different level planes fit together, and, in particular, of how manifestation in the physical comes about. hence the ability to even create a new physical body almost at will.

No doubt Steiner is referring to this in some sort of way -- not only with regard to the conception of Jesus but also in a later video that of Horus. A Divinely realized being will still probably choose to be born from a woman's womb, which sure beats a test tube, -- though perhaps, or probably, from that of a woman who is herself a Divinely realized being.

doetem

20th August 2014, 12:24

annacherie

20th August 2014, 15:39

TraineeHuman

21st August 2014, 04:13

I wish I knew how to meditate correctly. Im prone to always doze off and end up sleeping. I wish I could experience this; it is most interesting! I live in Michigan, does anyone know facilities where they could possibly help me with deep meditation?

doetem, meditation is more a matter of in daily life getting to where you face things in you like impatience, or disgust at others' rudeness or stupidity or manipulation etc etc. It's what comes with facing the fact of all the junk like that all the time, and learning not to react and even to respond by somehow still finding and feeling the good, the rightness that's still always there, at a deeper level, so that you can still give a genuine smile maybe (unless they seize on that to exploit you), but there's still a smile within you. You only learn that through watching yourself -- your reactions and thoughts and feelings and impulses -- intently all the time, without judging. That takes practice. And oh, what commitment it takes to keep on doing that, forever if need be. But it's something you teach yourself, rather than waiting to "get taught". Those "facilities" you're looking for will just be a teacher/etc who can get you to cast aside all your limitations and do it yourself. "You" are the whole problem, I'm afraid. We all are. Also, some "facilities" that I would suggest you could tune into are every tree, bush and plant you walk past. Just being open to them, and what they are telling you.

And when you sit down and it's quiet and you can put everything that needs doing on hold, you watch your breathing and breathe away every thought, right out of you, until all you're doing is breathing (away). If you're falling asleep then you're not watching alertly and intently enough. One contemporary Zen Master said that what's required is the kind of alertness that a samurai has when he knows he'll have to fight for his very life and he's watching an enemy who's about to attack him. This is a commitment to watching yourself like a hawk, 24/7. Persistence is a necessary key to success in any field. And you are, in a real sense, fighting for your (better) life here.

TraineeHuman

21st August 2014, 04:40

"Yes, for instance, the ordinary mind is quite unable to realize whatever high ideals it may aspire to. It's far too lost in compromises, and deductions, and opposite extremes, in divisions, in a will that's always either divided or compulsively obsessed, and even just plain ineptness. What's genuinely logical is to put first things first -- to quote the late Barry Long. Whenever you're doing that, you're using the Higher Mind."

a personal dilemma - that of developing the strength of my convictions. I would say convictions are largely hypocritical except to the extent that they are a description of the sum total of your actions.

Is it an erroneous subconscious belief that forces of the will must evolve through the taking of risks....the leaps of faith (that our intuition constantly asks) that will provide the personal discipline desirable for balanced navigation through the astral realms? (At 57 risks are more daunting than they were at younger ages)
There is such a thing as Higher Will, but it's part of the Higher Mind (the soul), and one has to go inward and eventually bring that into one before it will work for one. On the other hand, if you're aware that your intuition is constantly asking you to do things, then that means you have already brought in your Higher Mind, and your intuition will already be gently telling you what to do, rather than asking you, and you'll already have the Higher Will.

or, can one engage the HM simply through intent, retreat into stillness, asceticism etc.
That's certainly necessary too. And yes, the Higher Will operates softly, through intent.

Do the cycles govern time in such a way that the internal impulses will organically give rise to the strengthening of the will also as humanity collectively moves? You do need to use your Higher Will, but what most people mean by "will power" is usually a matter of using their ego-dominated ordinary mind to try to control itself a little. Intent is gentler and subtler. It's a matter of not giving the ego's urges your support.

Carmody writes "Clarity only begins to come when the last thing to cling to - is gone. When the ability to cling, even at the most subtle and unconscious levels, is gone. One cannot think it, one cannot out-think it, one cannot game it, or play with it. It cannot be fooled, it is a real thing. Hovering on the border of dissolution, in the most base of all that represents one's given capacity to perceive and be, is where it is. When the deepest formational directive to emote in the production, emanation and relation of self is finally gone (is released and relaxed) -then it finally begins to emerge" . This perspective compels me to wonder about the relationship between our ability to see (is this not heavily determined by the position of the planets?) and our will...sort of like seeing with our hands- or feeling through our olfactory system etc.
Carmody beautifully describes what's involved in true ego death, which is the same as (the first stage of) permanent descension of the Higher Mind so that it's permanently present in such a way that you're continually conscious of that freedom, and at a certain stage one needs to pass through that, when one is ready. By "ego death" I don't mean that your ego dissolves away at this point, but simply that you now deeply know that you are something beyond subject/object, and the ego isn't truly you, and you are something much greater, and the ego, though still mostly there (but now slowly burning away, over a very,very long period), just isn't worthy of you.

Highwhistler

21st August 2014, 10:12

I wish I knew how to meditate correctly. Im prone to always doze off and end up sleeping. I wish I could experience this; it is most interesting!

Remember your first love? You would think about him or her all the time. You would lay awake in bed a night, and could not go to sleep. Your love was so beautiful and honest, that with the greatest of ease you could spend hours daydreaming about her or him. That's meditation. It's just meditating on a person.

Now the thing to do is to fall in love with your inner psychic ecosystem. Become totally and completely fascinated with how thoughts come and go, the nature of feelings & memories, the space, the emptiness, the inner theater where thoughts are displayed. Ask yourself what are the raw materials that thoughts, dreams, imaginative movies, and memories are made of? Become entranced with exploring the concepts of individuality and the collective ... what is the soul? ... where does it live? ... what is its nature and abilities? ... am I a soul? ...

And so you fall into True Love with the whole inner environment. Your love is so great you find yourself day dreaming about inner space, emptiness, telepathy, the interconnected mystical universes inside your Self.

Then, throw out everything you've ever heard about meditation postures. They are totally irrelevant. You can meditate in any position ... you can be laying flat on your back in bed, you can be walking around your neighborhood, you can be at work sitting in a chair and you take 30 seconds to just check inside on the nature of your inner space.

When you truly love the inner ecosystem, you can meditate for hours. Get into the most comfortable position for you -- a position that you can be in for 15 minutes to several hours. For me it is flat on my back. One of my true loves is the Silence of the Universe. It became a part of my center-most identity several decades ago, and has allowed me to stop my mind in less than the twinkle of an eye.

Become a devoted & passionate researcher of your own inner space. A soul explorer. Stories of inner experiences told by others are nice ... but become absolutely interested in your own, direct, first-hand, ongoing inner psychic-spiritual existence.

As part of the inner universe that you are exploring, loose yourself in deep loving meditative contemplation on the great questions of all time ... and find your own answers: Who am I? What am I? Will a part of me exist after the death of the body? Have I lived before? Am I an spiritual offspring of the Creator? Who is God? What is God? Does God even exist?

Who cares if you fall a sleep? There are no inner guru cops that are going to write you a spiritual sleeping ticket.

But, when you become truly fascinated with the worlds within, you will find that you are an explorer and will stay bright, awake, focused and totally fascinated with your journeys, your discoveries. You will find yourself floating in timelessness ... even becoming from time to time, a center of highly focused awareness that is outside your physical body.

If your love is great enough ... when an inner movie arises ... you will find that you can stop it, analyze it, and you have the ability to jump into it and explore its world ... and then naturally and with the greatest of ease, you instantly return safe and sound, to you, the Presence in your body, quietly meditating here in the physical world.

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