The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

[Reinhard]

Yes, this wonderful movie is available on YouTube (French with English Subtitles). Just look for "The Green Beautiful".
Enjoy,
Reinhard

[TraineeHuman]

How do you quickly shed your astral, mental and causal bodies after physical death? You'll do it the most readily and effectively, I suggest, as a result of having carried out daily self-training in doing something effectively the same as just that. I've already indicated that daily meditation is a desirable, if not indeed absolutely essential, form of this, along with daily self-reflection as well. Certain other practices are also essential, I should mention. Maybe the most important thing of all is that you don't merely read information about spirituality and fail to act, fail to do the hard work, daily. Just reading or intellectualizing, or getting caught in some kind of flight of ideas, will get you nowhere. That way lies potential insanity or at least indulgence of the ego.

One example of another thing I personally strive to carry out every day is to avoid anything that could be described as monastic in any way. Let me explain a little, though, that part of this is something particular to me that may well not apply to you. It just so happens that in my case I can do much of the monastic type of stuff easily, so that it becomes something like an escapism. Let me hasten to add that many monastic or ashram setups take considerable care to ensure that participants don't escape from real life in some way. For instance, I understand that in Japanese Zen Buddhism the monks are required to work at least about four hours every day performing quite heavy labor. Not bad as a way of grounding the individuals involved. Without thorough grounding you could eventually get insanity and such things as delusions of grandeur. Bliss is something you only appreciate, and only fully understand and therefore develop more fully, if you're starkly faced with the opposite all the time, i.e. with horribleness and the world of suffering. If you go deeply enough into spirituality, I assure you you'll find yourself voluntarily taking on great challenges without anyone asking you to. Not out of (egoic) ambition, but because the greater power coming into you from the higher planes more or less demands it, somehow. Some of these big challenges may be quite basic, though -- such as to be patient and tolerant in the face of chaos or rudeness or whatever, at work, at the supermarket, at home, and so on.

The interesting thing is that practices such as meditation (eventually) take us to planes higher than the mental and beyond. But whatever I say will itself just be cast in words and therefore part of the mental. This means it doesn't matter so much whether anything I say here seems to describe anything you seem to notice as occurring during e.g. meditation. Probably you're experiencing that and more, eventually, but you simply can't describe what it is exactly, or not as yet. It's certainly more than just "fog".

There's an expression in the New Testament about the need to be "in the world but not of it". That sums up something that we need to become reasonably masterful at. Even as we experience the thoughts, emotions and sensations of living in the everyday world, we need to simultaneously be able to stand back from all of that and see it kind of with a birds-eye view totally from the outside, as it were. As if what we thought was the reality were made of something like glass, which has some actual degree of reality but also obviously isn't the full reality, and which we can moreover see all the way through. Can we see it all as meaningless in this sense? But meaningless only because there's some kind of deeper meaning beyond all the "glass".

[Guish]

To endorse what TH is saying:

“Chop wood, carry water.”

At one time these tasks were very common, daily tasks that many performed. In modern times this saying be interpreted as, “Drive to work, mow the lawn”. What this expression is telling us is to perform our daily tasks and be mindful while doing them. That is the secret to enlightenment. To do each task we do with the fascination and wonderment of a beginner.

The reason this is so important to understand is that many people think they can be awakened by way of some magical technique such as physical contortion, or by extreme physical condition such as starvation or excessive labor. These extreme tactics do not work well for most people. Though this quote seems like it favors labor, it does not mention doing it excessively to the point of physical exhaustion. The key to enlightenment is to be mindful of everything we do all of the time.

What does that mean? It doesn’t mean to merely think about what we are doing and over-analyze it. If we think about walking too much while we are walking, we will trip! Using walking as an example, it instead means to enjoy the sensations of walking and be aware of it without thinking about it too much. Feel the muscles move and bear the weight of your body with each step. Feel the change in the ground when moving from concrete to grass. Feel your belly move with each breath as you walk.

Since I mentioned “drive to work” I must stress that we are not to space out while driving and get in an accident. It is very much the opposite. Rather than talk on our phones, while eating and talking to our passengers, we should instead have our full concentration dedicated to driving, to keep ourselves and others on the roadways safe. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the drive while doing so.

The key to enlightenment is to have a beginner’s mind while doing the common things that we are already doing. It is almost like a child doing things for the first time, they are often amazed at the little things we take for granted each day. Let us not take things for granted anymore. Be mindful, be truly in each moment, do not over-analyze.


Source: http://www.zendirt.com/chop-wood-carry-water/59/

[Guish]

The interesting thing is that practices such as meditation (eventually) take us to planes higher than the mental and beyond. But whatever I say will itself just be cast in words and therefore part of the mental. This means it doesn't matter so much whether anything I say here seems to describe anything you seem to notice as occurring during e.g. meditation. Probably you're experiencing that and more, eventually, but you simply can't describe what it is exactly, or not as yet. It's certainly more than just "fog".

There's an expression in the New Testament about the need to be "in the world but not of it". That sums up something that we need to become reasonably masterful at. Even as we experience the thoughts, emotions and sensations of living in the everyday world, we need to simultaneously be able to stand back from all of that and see it kind of with a birds-eye view totally from the outside, as it were. As if what we thought was the reality were made of something like glass, which has some actual degree of reality but also obviously isn't the full reality, and which we can moreover see all the way through. Can we see it all as meaningless in this sense? But meaningless only because there's some kind of deeper meaning beyond all the "glass".

With time, one has to learn to treat all events the same way (Equanimity). One will notice that emotions of extreme happiness and sadness will fade with time. I can have a blissful experience during zazen but I can have a rocking one too. Last week, my whole body was on fire during zazen and I experienced something like an earthquake inside my body. When I stood up, I did everything normally. The point is to not get trapped into any state.

[TraineeHuman]

Bliss, as I have used that term many times throughout this thread and as it's standardly used in Advaita Vedanta and Yoga and also, as far as I'm aware, in Zen too, Guish, refers to a certain non-dual state. Basically, I would say it's that state which transcends (and integrates or kind of "rubs out") the tri-polarity of pleasure, pain and indifference. (It's not the same at all, by any means, as extreme pleasure of the emotions/heart or of hugely pleasurable sensations.)

Personally, I never fail to experience at least a little strong bliss during any meditation I do. By the way, it's not something one can attach to, because the very act of experiencing it is always a big letting go.

The more important situation in which to experience at least some bliss, though, is that of everyday life -- chopping wood or whatever. I must say that in my own life it's unusual not to experience or bring in at least moments of bliss in any such activity. Also, my understanding of the teachings of Yoga and Zen is that this is something essential to bring into one's life as one's spiritual evolution progresses. Bliss involves the experiencing of a delight at the very fact of existence and its truly infinite nature, independent of the situation one is in or any objects or other experiences. Such "everyday" bliss is a central part of the ultimate aim of all Yoga and Zen, as I understand them. It's always included integrally in the highest possible states of consciousness -- as far as my own experience knows. It's part of the apex of our spiritual evolution. I guess I would say it's the higher-plane version of "feeling", the lower-plane version being emotions and physical sensations.

I've also found, though, that it's a very, very long process to learn to bring bliss in fully and let it transform everything in one's life. It seems to me that until such a transformation is complete, one seems to almost (if not, indeed, actually) attract great conflict or stress or difficult problems -- maybe to enable bliss to keep casting its magic in the widest and most intense possible way.

[greybeard]

From a non-duality point of view--What exactly is witnessing these states that come and go and all experiences?
Awareness is the one unmoving unchanging constant.
Everything else comes and goes---all witnessed by awareness.

The waves come and go but the ocean is unaffected by this.
The mind can create amazing experiences-- but the mind is temporary---awareness is eternal.
While we are "in body" I’m sure much can be experienced and enjoyed out of body.

Chris.

ps all credit Trainee Human to you for this thread for its long levity and an enormous amount of visits and attracting genuine interest in the subject.

Chris

[TraineeHuman]

From a non-duality point of view--What exactly is witnessing these states that come and go and all experiences?
Awareness is the one unmoving unchanging constant.
Everything else comes and goes---all witnessed by awareness.



Well, in Vedanta and Yoga, I believe the orthodox line is that Sat-Chit-Ananda is what constitutes Divinity, or the ultimate state. Sat means Being, Chit means Consciousness, and Ananda means Bliss. So to say there's ultimately only consciousness would be to in some way devalue the centrality of both Being and Bliss, I guess.

[greybeard]

From a non-duality point of view--What exactly is witnessing these states that come and go and all experiences?
Awareness is the one unmoving unchanging constant.
Everything else comes and goes---all witnessed by awareness.



Well, in Vedanta and Yoga, I believe the orthodox line is that Sat-Chit-Ananda is what constitutes Divinity, or the ultimate state. Sat means Being, Chit means Consciousness, and Ananda means Bliss. So to say there's ultimately only consciousness would be to in some way devalue the centrality of both Being and Bliss, I guess.

Sat-Chit-Ananda is of course valid---Enlightenment cant be explained only experienced but its not a personal event---everything is witnessed but there is no person doing this.
Nasargadatta book "I am That" and the works of Ramana Maharshi explain well and currently Mooji.
Mooji quote "Whatever can be described, is not what you are"
Some enlightened sages say "I am the totality all of it"

Tim's opening post on his thread explains this best.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

Anyway wishing you all the best
Chris

[Guish]

I believed a shift in consciousness causes one to go beyond the mind and body and be in the "being" state. Bliss is a result of the shift in consciousness. However, in my experience, these three things might be occurring at the same time. It hard to describe something beyond the mind. Isn't it? The level of consciousness can drop to the lower planes as well if consistent practice is not done. Maybe, I'm not fully enlightened and I need the constant meditation practice to stay in the bliss. Nevertheless, I recall Yogananda recommending 3 hours of meditation a day. Hence, constant meditation seems to be very important.

[TraineeHuman]

I need the constant meditation practice to stay in the bliss. Nevertheless, I recall Yogananda recommending 3 hours of meditation a day. Hence, constant meditation seems to be very important.

Yes, lengthy periods of meditation for hours at a time do seem to be necessary.

Another thing I have found to have very usefully and deeply developed the awareness of bliss, for myself and some others, has been the feeling the aliveness exercise, which was invented by the late Barry Long, a former teacher of mine. It takes a long time of practicing this exercise (whenever during the day you get reminded) before the permanent major results kick in for you, but it's worth the persevering. You can find a description of how to do that exercise here:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=606494&viewfull=1#post606494

Also, I believe the Zen tradition emphasizes that ultimately the whole aim is to bring (among other things) bliss and its fruits into one's everyday life. Indeed, in the largest Zen sect, the Soto sect, the usual thing that happens is that enlightenment is attained not through any sudden experience but so gradually it becomes integrated into one's life "seamlessly". No "fireworks". Which I would favor these days, though I've also had quite a few "sudden enlightenment" experiences. You might like to consider the following posts in this regard, Guish:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=736438&viewfull=1#post736438

and

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=925248&viewfull=1#post925248

[Guish]

I need the constant meditation practice to stay in the bliss. Nevertheless, I recall Yogananda recommending 3 hours of meditation a day. Hence, constant meditation seems to be very important.

Yes, lengthy periods of meditation for hours at a time do seem to be necessary.

Another thing I have found to have very usefully and deeply developed the awareness of bliss, for myself and some others, has been the feeling the aliveness exercise, which was invented by the late Barry Long, a former teacher of mine. It takes a long time of practicing this exercise (whenever during the day you get reminded) before the permanent major results kick in for you, but it's worth the persevering. You can find a description of how to do that exercise here:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=606494&viewfull=1#post606494

Also, I believe the Zen tradition emphasizes that ultimately the whole aim is to bring (among other things) bliss and its fruits into one's everyday life. Indeed, in the largest Zen sect, the Soto sect, the usual thing that happens is that enlightenment is attained not through any sudden experience but so gradually it becomes integrated into one's life "seamlessly". No "fireworks". Which I would favor these days, though I've also had quite a few "sudden enlightenment" experiences. You might like to consider the following posts in this regard, Guish:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=736438&viewfull=1#post736438

and

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=925248&viewfull=1#post925248


Thanks. Every time I'm on holidays, I have quality conversations with you. Grateful to you. The only major troubling thing for me was the Kundalini experience. Thanks for your help at that time. Through time, anger towards manipulative people changed to compassion and understanding of their own struggles. I mentioned it in Chris' thread before. My relationships changed miraculously when i extracted beliefs I had about people who once caused me harm. Their attitudes changed so much that they now ask for advice from me. It's just fascinating how changing oneself changes one's reality. Our ancestors knew about it though. In the Gita, it's mentioned that one becomes a portal of the universe when one merges with the absolute. I'll look at your links one at a time.

[TraineeHuman]

That's lovely to hear, Guish. Just wonderful. The Higher "Self" does invariably unleash extraordinary gifts. (Which also prove that it's very real.) Hearing a little about some of yours helped me reflect on some in my own life. That's just now given me some valuable insights, so, thank you so much. Earlier in this thread I'd been hoping to hear more from members breaking through into acquiring such gifts. But it takes time and intensive dedication to get there, I guess.

My gifts have been somewhat different from yours. But for instance, I've worked in a variety of quite different professions and one thing I had a knack of doing over a twenty year period was creating solutions to certain of the problems that a major corporation was faced with. In effect I would quite temporarily and briefly be taking over the whole project design. (Regardless of what position I was officially in, my solution would in each case be adopted 100%, without any alteration, by the company's topmost management. Somehow it would flow effortlessly out of my creative imagination, without any need for corrections anywhere. All first draft.) Somehow I would creatively come up with a solution that worked, and that got rid of flaws in the project or even its potential failure. In a large corporation, we might be talking here about a project worth billions. I (the Higher me) would somehow easily come up with a solution -- in a matter of just a few days' work -- that would constructively contribute to the lives of the customers (I would make sure of that!) in addition to removing some major headaches for the company's management and staff.

You mention that one of your major gifts has been to convert your enemies into your supporters. That hasn't been my gift, but you're giving me ideas. And I can see that it's as awesome as the above gift of my own.

And my huge congratulations to you, because such "miraculous" gifts are rock-solid proof that the extraordinary power of the Higher Mind or soul has been successfully and properly unleashed.

[Guish]

That's lovely to hear, Guish. Just wonderful. The Higher "Self" does invariably unleash extraordinary gifts. (Which also prove that it's very real.) Hearing a little about some of yours helped me reflect on some in my own life. That's just now given me some valuable insights, so, thank you so much. Earlier in this thread I'd been hoping to hear more from members breaking through into acquiring such gifts. But it takes time and intensive dedication to get there, I guess.

My gifts have been somewhat different from yours. But for instance, I've worked in a variety of quite different professions and one thing I had a knack of doing over a twenty year period was creating solutions to certain of the problems that a major corporation was faced with. In effect I would quite temporarily and briefly be taking over the whole project design. (Regardless of what position I was officially in, my solution would in each case be adopted 100%, without any alteration, by the company's topmost management. Somehow it would flow effortlessly out of my creative imagination, without any need for corrections anywhere. All first draft.) Somehow I would creatively come up with a solution that worked, and that got rid of flaws in the project or even its potential failure. In a large corporation, we might be talking here about a project worth billions. I (the Higher me) would somehow easily come up with a solution -- in a matter of just a few days' work -- that would constructively contribute to the lives of the customers (I would make sure of that!) in addition to removing some major headaches for the company's management and staff.

You mention that one of your major gifts has been to convert your enemies into your supporters. That hasn't been my gift, but you're giving me ideas. And I can see that it's as awesome as the above gift of my own.

And my huge congratulations to you, because such "miraculous" gifts are rock-solid proof that the extraordinary power of the Higher Mind or soul has been successfully and properly unleashed.

It's always a pleasure to talk to you and exchange experiences. I'm not sure why I haven't been reading your thread so often.

[Rich]

Through time, anger towards manipulative people changed to compassion and understanding of their own struggles. I mentioned it in Chris' thread before. My relationships changed miraculously when i extracted beliefs I had about people who once caused me harm.

This I have observed as well, people changing when I change. I also create challenging people sometimes to see
how I react and change my attitude to peace/love.
Bashar explains that we each have our own Universe and that's why everything changes when we change.


TraineeHuman :yo:
What is the relation between merging with Source/Higher Self and the knowledge of non-duality?

[Guish]

Through time, anger towards manipulative people changed to compassion and understanding of their own struggles. I mentioned it in Chris' thread before. My relationships changed miraculously when i extracted beliefs I had about people who once caused me harm.

This I have observed as well, people changing when I change. I also create challenging people sometimes to see
how I react and change my attitude to peace/love.
Bashar explains that we each have our own Universe and that's why everything changes when we change.


TraineeHuman :yo:
What is the relation between merging with Source/Higher Self and the knowledge of non-duality?

In my experience, non-duality is just an effect of merging with the absolute. The absolute is a big void, which is mostly called "nothing" in zen. However, people start seeing things in a non-dualistic way when they start experiencing glimpses of the absolute during Samadhi/deep meditation. In the normal life, people start being active rather than reactive to events. One no longer criticizes things or feel an urge to rush. Things just happen and one becomes an observer. One feels less tired and even feels timelessness. I remember going to work and not even realizing when the day was off. During one of my phases, a few months ago, I was sleeping for just 1-2 hours daily and was completely immersed in bliss during the night. Yet, I didn't feel tired. The ego will say it's illusion but I have made a much more impact at my workplace or personal life being in this state. That's one of the reasons why spirituality can't be understood with a rational mind and words hardly do justice.

[Rich]

In my experience, non-duality is just an effect of merging with the absolute. The absolute is a big void, which is mostly called "nothing" in zen.

I do not mean the nothing, I meant Source as an experience, that which NDE/OOB people refer to.

[Guish]

In my experience, non-duality is just an effect of merging with the absolute. The absolute is a big void, which is mostly called "nothing" in zen.

I do not mean the nothing, I meant Source as an experience, that which NDE/OOB people refer to.

It's been on my mind. Once one experiences the source, we know that we are not the body and the mind. In that state, I was not even breathing. The first time I experienced it, I freaked out and stopped meditating. Therefore, We either go back to the source-meaning, we won't last in the body for long or we come back to the world and act the normal way. Chop wood, carry water. The difference is we are no longer beings with spiritual experiences but spiritual beings with human experiences. There's a whole shift in the way we look at things. Not sure I answered you, friend.

[greybeard]

According to Mooji and others, it goes further than void--- in that, what is aware of the void?
The late Dr David Hawkins was there in a previous life time and whilst it seemed the ultimate, it was devoid of Love
He had to come back for another life time to be fully enlightened and go beyond the void.
One avatar said "There only is one soul and I am that"
That is ultimate Truth--Only one without a second.
There is only one Self---Awareness.

In honesty I have to say this is not as yet my "experience", however years of reading, listening to and spending time with enlightened, led me to believe what they were all saying---"I am That"

Chris

[TraineeHuman]

The topic of "Nothing", and also that of Source, are very huge topics. I've already said various things in this thread about Source, which hopefully can be found via the Search Thread option.

One thing I don't recall having said in this thread is that, in my understanding (and also, emphatically, in that of most of the individuals who study comparative philosophy professionally), the word "nothingness", as used in both ancient Indian and ancient Chinese spirituality, is much more accurately translated or referred to as "everythingness". This also accords with my own transcendental experiences. So it would be great if people could permanently throw out "nothing" and always replace it with "everything" instead.

Around six weeks ago I talked to a man who had been pursuing spiritual practices (including considerable mastery of out-of-body "travel") for about thirty years and was complaining strongly about how he simply couldn't bear the pressure of "the nothingness", try as he might. I believe I understood exactly what his difficulty was. Unfortunately, he was so attached to being "the expert" that at the time it just wasn't possible for me to share my own take on his problem. I did manage to make a small joke of how "mere nothingness" was the bane of his life. I do intend to meet him again, and on that occasion I will explain to him that the enormous pressure in the mid-head region is something I very happily welcome. I welcome it because I have found that it isn't possible to experience Source, or any of the higher planes that lead up to Source, without going through that pressure. However, because I welcome it with great delight, for me it almost instantly disappears, somehow as a result of such welcoming. That's all that that man needs to do, and I hope to persuade him to try changing his whole attitude to that pressure. He was older than me, and it would be a shame if he died so close to knowing how to access such higher planes but unable to do so because he had a wrong attitude to them.

There's much more to explain about so-called "nothing" or so-called "voidness". I'll post some more shortly. But one source of huge confusion has been that, as an unfortunate result of dumbing-down, most Indian gurus of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries wrongly assumed that the ancient Indian notion of negation or "nothing" was in some way similar to the Western notion of "nothing" which they learnt through the British education system in India.

[Guish]

Hi TH,

In my understanding, it was termed "nothing" to put relativity in context. For example, comparing an enlightened person to an "unenlightened" one, the enlightened would have no identity, no gender, no desire, no greed. Hence, nothing. However, in the nothing, there's everything, peace, grace, compassion, divinity. Hoping to hear your input.

[TraineeHuman]

Hi TH,

In my understanding, it was termed "nothing" to put relativity in context. For example, comparing an enlightened person to an "unenlightened" one, the enlightened would have no identity, no gender, no desire, no greed. Hence, nothing. However, in the nothing, there's everything, peace, grace, compassion, divinity. Hoping to hear your input.

One unfortunate misunderstanding of the talk of "nothing" was the emergence of whole "schools" of Yoga who taught (and I think still teach) that we can go into total Non-Being. They misguidedly equate Non-Being with Nirvana. But the truth is, there's no such thing as nothing -- not "nothing" in the nihilistic sense we're so familiar with in the West. And Nirvana is actually the second level or plane of Source. Certainly, when one is in Nirvana, yes, one becomes continually aware of the inadequacy of all labels and of all attempts to grab hold, and one just has to surrender to the craziness or chaos by which the Divine Mind acts. (Not to deny either, though, that the Divine Mind also dynamically preserves and upholds and implements Truth or "higher principles" throughout the universes and planes. I'll come back to that in a later post. But obviously, then, the Divine Mind can't really be nothing -- in the nihilist sense -- except, that is, to those who aren't able to taste any of it, as you say, Guish.)

To say that Nirvana is Non-Being is complete nonsense, it seems to me. This all becomes very clear in the next level of Source above Nirvana, which some have, very fittingly, called Meta-Nirvana. In Meta-Nirvana one experiences total reconciliation with the chaos that lies in Nirvana. In Meta-Nirvana, one becomes totally able to be at peace no matter how extreme the chaos, and non-grasping is no longer a problem there. Also, one experiences a wholly different form of knowing than the grasping or labeling kind. The grasping or labeling kind is 100% noun-based, or object-based. In Meta-Nirvana it becomes very clear that the whole notion of a noun or an object is totally fictitious or illusory in an absolute or ultimate sense, even though the physical plane is partly built out of such illusions. It's not just that Source is beyond labels and concepts. So also, and equally just as much, is the true nature of, or the true reality behind, every single "object" or "noun".

By the way, I would deny that it's in any way possible for an individual to choose to shed their individuality. As far as I'm aware, the individuals who have "gone into Non-Being" just go on a kind of holiday or retreat" in the sky", but don't lose their individuality at all.

The notion of "nothingness" is basically the central notion of both ancient Indian and ancient Chinese spirituality and indeed of the entire worldview. That makes this topic incredibly broad, and particularly hard to treat in a balanced way. But another thing I'd like to mention for now is that in all ancient Indian thought (up to maybe 150 BC at least), "absence" was assumed to be metaphysically/existentially prior to, and to have greater reality than, "presence" or "being " or "existence". It's a bit like getting used to driving on what to you seems the "wrong" side of the road in some foreign country that has chosen to do things differently.

[Meggings]

Guish wrote above: “I was not even breathing. The first time I experienced it, I freaked out and stopped meditating. Therefore, We either go back to the source-meaning, we won't last in the body for long or we come back to the world”

That does seem to be that way. When I rose up in bliss (I was working at my sewing machine at the time, fashioning blessings for people I knew in my mind at the time), I felt myself rise up high. I stopped breathing, and a lot of liquid came from the roof of my mouth. It was perfect "happy/peace". After a bit, from a long way away, I heard an inner voice say, “If you want to continue living, you have to rouse yourself and breathe.” I as Margaret considered this idea for a bit, and then did by an act of will make the effort, and came back and started breathing again. As Guish writes, one apparently can choose not to return.

Guish wrote: “...non-duality is just an effect of merging with the absolute. The absolute is a big void...”

There is also non-duality while acting within the 3D world, where despite the apparent imperfection, one experiences perfection. It is truly odd for me, the personality, to feel/KNOW perfection in the middle of a messy construction site, or in the middle of angry family shouting. I was undeniably within my personality but also within non-duality.

There is also the “big void” that I’ve flown through with conscious awareness thousands of times, that I call simply the void. It is black. Things and beings and devices and worlds hang out there. Perhaps I am not the best person to listen to regarding experiences, since I have what I used to term a “split”’ mind (words I fashioned to explain my traveling to myself), but later wisdom showed me I had more a “joined mind”. It appears that the higher conscious mind at times is linked to the personality consciousness, and thus my experience may not be useful to hear about.

There is apparently a kind of “melding with Source” or god that can occur while one lives in physical body. My consciousness had been gone from my body a couple of days. I “came to” in a hospital bed. Family obviously had taken me there, but never explained to me how long nor the details. In any event, I simply began singing in joy and love when I returned to my body, with the greatest overflowing bliss imaginable. Within a few hours the doctor, after talking with me, shook his head and said he had no idea what had happened to me, but that I was obviously not needing to be in a hospital. I remember clearly that my laughter was silvery and that it blessed life. I even sang in the car ride back home.

The point of this story is that the next day my spiritual vision was getting intrusive to my 3D life – for days and nights non-stop I saw both with physical eyes and with spiritual eyesight, and I could not sleep. That is when I was examining akasha and, as interesting as it was that I could make things “activate” with my attention on it, I still had a physical body that needed sleep. So on the third day I stood in my bedroom, raised my hand, and issued a fiat that this stop, for I had a body that had to sleep.

An experience I had that week was extremely interesting. Divine energy was pouring through me constantly. It roared with the force of a blue-flame blowtorch, and roared out in what I think were eight beams of light from my skull. It was so completely obvious to me that I turned to ask my daughter if she could see it. She said no (of course). When I inclined my head towards my daughter in turning and asking her that question, I perceived with spiritual knowing that my eyes were firey flames.

As is the way of the world, great light can attract great attack, and husband attacked. I was soon locked out of my home and business, and spent quite some time at my farm simply beaming in golden light. Luckily I was cared for, since I never would have thought of food. But I returned more and more to my body, and spent some years working at staying in body. One thing I did was eat meat. One thing was run to my partner and hold his arm when I felt myself on the verge of leaving body.

An interesting anecdote happened once at my desk, after the blowtorch divine light influx This was just before being locked out of my business by husband (I still find that odd to have been locked out of my life) – I was sitting before my computer, for I had an electronics business with employees. From far away I heard a noise, an unintelligible noise that seemed to call to me. So I descended from wherever I was, and as I got lower and lower the gibberish noise got translated into a question by my personality mind. I turned to the person asking, answered the question appropriately, looked around my office and saw my computer screen on, an employee at the other desk working, and then I again rose up out of my physical body. Most interesting was that as I was descending, I saw “my” arms were massive and made of golden light. I saw my arms reach out and part a curtain of golden sparkling light that I then descended through. It was after I’d gone through that veil of light that the gibberish sounds became translated into human words.

See what happens when one gets up at night because they cannot sleep? They go to the computer and out pours memories.

Greybeard writes about David Hawkins: “He had to come back for another life time to be fully enlightened and go beyond the void.” I had never heard that before. I found Hawkins when I began to look for anyone who’d had experiences at all similar to mine.

I am not enlightened, but I have been beyond “the void”. I have left the matter universes and entered...well now, layers of differentiated blackness. This is not to be confused with what I call the “void” in my travelings, for I fly though a black void to see and visit places, doing things.

Again, I doubt my experiences are helpful. I never did practices, and chose not to. When at about age 20, I finally escaped from the slight madhouse of family home and my parent’s emotional lives, I rented a room in Toronto, where I had obtained an office job. I breathed a sigh of relief and FINALLY sat on the bedroom floor to breathe. My intent was to do my first meditation. BUT virtually instantly all hell broke loose. The kundalini roared to life, shaking me and roaring through me with the noise of a freight train. It paralysed me for a bit. Slowly and painfully I worked for I don’t know how long to move my frozen body over to the bed, and so slowly you’d think me a snail, I did the impossible of getting my semi-paralysed body up onto the bed. I sat up against the wall all night, without sleep. My thought was that I would “die” if I did that again, and so never did.

TraineeHuman writes: “...pressure in the mid-head region is something I very happily welcome. I welcome it because I have found that it isn't possible to experience Source, or any of the higher planes that lead up to Source, without going through that pressure.”

I find the pressure slight, coming instantly I think of god. Then I “fall back into my head”, a kind of falling upward, and come near bliss. For years and years after the blue blowtorch flames roared out of my head in beams, I had to NOT think of god or I’d go up and nearly leave the body. But “think of god” is an inaccurate phrase, for there are no words used, just a “leaning upwards” to the higher. A listing towards. Divinity responds to my attention and I must pause to let the energies move in my head. There’s a strong influx in my head now just from putting these thoughts on paper.

For perhaps a decade or more, while working at my desk, I would often, times beyond counting, feel something akin to a tap on my shoulder. It was a knowing from the higher that a “shower of diamond light” was coming. It would wash down over me, this white sparkling energy, and I had to pause for it, pause while it passed into me, and pause a bit longer as it got assimilated, and then I’d return to my office work. Never thought to mention it to anyone. It was just part of my inner life. Sharing is a recent thing, begun tentatively in my early 60s. I found it did not go over well with anyone.

I think it has done me far more good to get these things out of me onto paper, than it will do you good to read them. And so I thank you for your forbearance. I will try not to delete this, for at times I have written some of my experiences on the forum, and later felt it was not useful to have done so and deleted them. Always my self-query is, of what good is it to share, when I am not a teacher and have nothing to teach. I have only experience, but everyone’s experience differs. I still do not know if sharing some richness of my inner life can help another. Yet there is the flow of words late at night. Perhaps it is only a symptom of human loneliness that results in me writing.

Thank you for listening.

[greybeard]

Hi TH,

In my understanding, it was termed "nothing" to put relativity in context. For example, comparing an enlightened person to an "unenlightened" one, the enlightened would have no identity, no gender, no desire, no greed. Hence, nothing. However, in the nothing, there's everything, peace, grace, compassion, divinity. Hoping to hear your input.

It is beyond logic/mind to get it.

You/we, are form,formless, both and neither.
The emptiness--nothing-- is full of potential and everything you mention is true Guish.
Spiritual Truth is full of paradox to us---we try to put "God" in a box so that we can understand.
Our rules and criteria do not fit --The totality all of it, which is what you are.
To confuse things further Ramana said "Nothing ever happened, no creation, no dissolution."
Tolle said "There was never anyone there to do anything to you."
Make of that what you will.
Indras dream?

Chris

[Innocent Warrior]

I think it has done me far more good to get these things out of me onto paper, than it will do you good to read them. And so I thank you for your forbearance. I will try not to delete this, for at times I have written some of my experiences on the forum, and later felt it was not useful to have done so and deleted them.

Just a quick post to implore you not to delete this post or others like it. I learn so much from others sharing their experiences (as do others, I'm sure).

[Rich]

Thanks for the interesting replies, I do not feel like my question has been answered,
at least not directly. So I will explain what I mean a bit more clearly now.
The idea of non-duality states that whatever can be observed is not IT,
basically is still illusion in the ultimate sense. Therefore the idea of merging
with Source/Higher Self is within duality because the question ''who/what is perceiving this?'' can still be asked.
While from the non-duality POV all this is illusion no one can deny that we have
to get out of the non-duality to have an experience. This leads me to believe
that all of life is illusion in the ultimate sense no matter how high a
state we achieve and that we have to use illusion to experience something - that is what life is.
(The irony here is an illusion saying that life is an illusion or part of life saying that life does not exist in reality.)

So I was asking TraineeHuman what is the relation between the idea
of non-duality and that of merging with source/high self,
in order to look at this from a more expanded/different point of view.
Is non-duality viewed from a limited human perspective perhaps different than the experience of non-duality from a god's perspective?

Maybe the word non-duality is used rather loosly and does not really imply void of experience.
TraineeHuman states that there is no ''nothingness'' but it does seem to me like we can experience at least close to nothing.

[TraineeHuman]

"There was never anyone there to do anything to you."


Well, I'd certainly agree (or prefer to say) that there never was anyone in the sense of a noun-like being, say, or in the sense of a person, because neither of those phrases, among others, describe anything like what who/what we really are at all, at a deeper level.

With experiences as absolutely and delightfully profound as what both Guish and Meggings have so beautifully described in the last day, words words words largely pale into insignificance anyway, at least for them, at least while such experiences, or their direct effects, continue to go on.

Perhaps it only remains to find a way to satisfy EmEx. Maybe a beginning would be to ask EmEx something like: Do you ever find you're aware of experiencing non-duality in some way, and if so, how?

[Rich]

Maybe a beginning would be to ask EmEx something like: Do you ever find you're aware of experiencing non-duality in some way, and if so, how?
Yes, I've had various experiences that could be considered non-dual yet to my mind no experience is non-dual since an experience cannot exist there.
Hence why I said the term might be meant in a loose way.

One experience I had was, for example, seeing the life run as a movie and being aware that there are no individual separate consciousnesses at all.

And the experience that there is no world.

But also the experience of seeing this personality/human from a higher perspective and the fact that this one is not the real me but a very limited perspective.

My question arose out of the (seeming) contradiction of those saying
we have to go to Higher Self or Source and those saying that anything
perceived is Illusion and should be let go of.
Something I've been thinking about for the last 1 or 2 years...but maybe there is no contradiction there at all.

[Guish]

The irony is that one keeps letting go till one is thrown into the void. The question is who perceives the void? One had to let go of the mind to get into the void? That's possibly your answer.

[TraineeHuman]

My question arose out of the (seeming) contradiction of those saying
we have to go to Higher Self or Source and those saying that anything
perceived is Illusion and should be let go of.
Something I've been thinking about for the last 1 or 2 years...but maybe there is no contradiction there at all.

Firstly, some comments regarding consistency. Consistency is what Socrates and Aristotle considered to be the most basic law of "logic". But it's not quite a law of reality. It's just a mental contruct. Nature only conforms to the law of consistency to a certain degree. Also, if a river is overall flowing west to the sea but spends much of its journey in between travelling more north, or else more south, than west, does that amount to "inconsistency" along the way?

And certainly, the Higher Self has no problem holding various inconsistent points of view or versions of reality all at the same time. Even more so does Source. Actually, everything exists inside of Source, and is a part of Source, so Source successfully holds absolutely all contradictions, all at the same time. Not only that, but Source additionally holds all possible scenarios as well, and these greatly outnumber the actual scenarios.

Another point is that the higher the plane of existence, the greater the degree of freedom that exists there in an existential sense. For instance, the law of gravity only applies in the physical world and several of the lower astral worlds, but there's no longer such a thing as a law of gravity once you get to the middle astral worlds or anything higher. Although "as above, so below" is largely true, "as below (e.g. that gravity applies) so above" generally isn't.

Related to this is the fact that higher planes can, under certain circumstances, impinge into lower planes, but not vice-versa. Indeed, the Higher Mind or soul lives in a space beyond polarities, even though it identifies and respects all polarised perceptions as well. Yes, there's a running inconsistency between non-polarity and polarity, but the HM continually seeks to resolve it as much in favor of non-polarity as is practicable. The non-polar view is always a superior one to any polarised view, so there's not usually confusion between the two.

[Meggings]

Emex: "...the experience of seeing this personality/human from a higher perspective and the fact that this one is not the real me but a very limited perspective. My question arose out of the (seeming) contradiction of those saying we have to go to Higher Self or Source and those saying that anything perceived is Illusion and should be let go of. "

TraineeHuman: "...the Higher Self has no problem holding various...points of view...at the same time. Even more so does Source. Actually, everything exists inside of Source, and is a part of Source, so Source successfully holds absolutely all contradictions"

Put these two together. The personality self, though apparently limited, has access through its soul (the higher self, whatever term you want to use) to the vastness of All-That-Is. And so in the nature of paradox, the personality is not only limited, but unlimited.

Our souls are part of a larger oversoul which is part of an even larger oversoul, all the way "up" where it is an integral part of Source. I have seen this experientially. I have flown up to a collective soul consciousness and marvelled - within my limited personality self - about WHY there was no dissonance in so many frequencies and vibrations that had joined together in one huge collective. This is the nature of Reality - individuality within Oneness.

Back in the 1970s I began contemplating the idea that 'truth is paradox standing on its head'. (...I cannot put into words the concepts contemplating this has taken me to...)

[Rich]

It's mind blowing...how one can think he is save in a structured, concrete life and all that's holding it
together are concepts that have no real substance at all...in reality we are lost in our own infinity...

...yeah, that's how I feel right now.


Btw, great posts that indeed makes me look at things from a broader point of view.

[Orph]

I think it has done me far more good to get these things out of me onto paper, than it will do you good to read them. And so I thank you for your forbearance. I will try not to delete this, for at times I have written some of my experiences on the forum, and later felt it was not useful to have done so and deleted them.

Just a quick post to implore you not to delete this post or others like it. I learn so much from others sharing their experiences (as do others, I'm sure).Indeed, Meggings, I.W. is right. By reading yours, and other peoples accounts of what they've experienced, it gives me inspiration to continue my quest. I thank you, and all who share on this forum.

[TraineeHuman]

The irony is that one keeps letting go till one is thrown into the void. The question is who perceives the void? One had to let go of the mind to get into the void? That's possibly your answer.

I suspect I have a rather different understanding of what voidness is and means, Guish, based on my own experiences, than you do. It would probably take a very lengthy exposition for me to cover this properly, but I guess to do this partially would cover (or begin to cover) some of EmEx's recent questions/issues as well.

Firstly, I take it we can exclude the "voidness" or apparent "nothing" which one can find in the formless worlds, and at their very basis and essence. These are the worlds of intuition and intention and viewpoint, and they exist between the upper mental world below them and the Divine worlds above them. The Divine worlds (Source) all are full of great voidness or peace, and I assume that's what we're considering here.

Secondly, my take is that some of the things that many Buddhists, and also Yogis fascinated with "Non-Being", say is misleading -- at least based on my own experiences. I don't see the voidness as empty or inert at all. That was also why I've already tried to point out that the mainstream view is that the ancient Eastern "nothingness" is better translated as "everythingness". One piece of evidence from the Buddha's teaching that supports this is the fact that he emphasized that even as we ideally should have a massive inner calm, we should also at the same time be active in the external world, hopefully creating there actions that manifest love, truth and goodness, as far as practicable.Certainly the Buddha taught that one should combine within himself or herself the inner stillness with the outer activities and involvenents. If the inner stillness was as empty as you seem to imply, Guish, surely that just wouldn't make sense -- which is probably part of EmEx's point. Because surely, also, the Buddha taught integration, wholeness, and therefore the inner and the outer must greatly interpenetrate.

Another example of something I propose, based on my experiences, is that I don't consider that individuality gets extinguished, but rather transformed and expanded. Indeed, as far as I understand, to extinguish the individual is also to extinguish the universe, because the distinction between the two has then been collapsed, if we're talking in the context of transcendence.

I'll make some more comments about voidness in another post, where I'll also say some things about "Mind". This thread has often primarily been about the Higher Mind or soul, and sometimes also about the Divine Mind, which is the active face of Source. These are of course quite different from what I call the ordinary mind -- which is presumably what you've been referring to when you say "the mind".

[Meggings]

Looking back to post #2000, a movie was referenced called "La Belle Verte". I found it had been referenced on another thread (called ringing in the ears) last summer. Interested, I found the movie online and post it here, in case any have interest in seeing it. Some comments were that everyone on Avalon should see this movie. I came late to Avalon, so I had to search for this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8m3Vy8bto4
a 5-minute preview of “La Belle Verte” movie, with English subtitles.

This is the entire movie with English subtitles on Disclose TV:
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/157826/La_Belle_Verte__The_Green_Beautiful_English_Subtitles/

[TraineeHuman]

Although words are ever so inadequate whenever we seek to communicate about the Divine, if we have had profound experiences (such as Guish and Meggings have recently described), then at least we may manage to exchange something meaningful with someone else who had had perhaps rather similar experiences. When it comes to "voidness", one thing I've observed with myself, and apparently with others, is as follows.

There's a realization that sometimes comes rather early on yet it's the most dramatic or the most shattering realization of all. I'm referring to the experience of something quite transcendental to, quite beyond, the world we seem to know and to be in. At the same time, what we experience ever so vividly and undeniably is that this something beyond is somehow totally identical with who we truly are, somewhere inside. One aftermath of this experience is that "normal" reality will seem to have an unreal or dreamlike quality about it for some time afterwards. (animovado once said "Ich Schattenbaum", meaning something like "I and my whole world are just shadows (that only keep breeding more shadows)", which eloquently sums up at least part of this.)

At that point, Source does indeed seem to be pure voidness. But if we wait, and if (the next step) we more and more integrate this realization into our everyday living, eventually Source shows itself not just as "void" but dynamically interactive with us in certain ways, and opening up infinities and sublime Truths to us. Ironically, though, before that interactive stage takes on, everyone seems to experience the most massive peace and silence, which kind of knocks out the ordinary mind like a sledgehammer. That stunned silence lasts for a period, but eventually that interactive stage seems to begin.

But even that absolute, shattering, bottomless silence is not nothing, not pure "voidness", as far as I can tell. Because each time it occurs, or when it occurs, it massively seems to dissolve one's problems. Not solve them , but shift one's perspective on them, so that one now sees them as challenges instead of problems. I could of course quote the Sufi mystic Rumi here. He would have known that many great Sufi saints before him had been crucified for insisting that they were in fact God (and no doubt that everyone else is as well, if only they'd realize it). He would have known that he was in danger of the same fate, not to mention all the extreme persecution he had already suffered. And still, regarding all that persecution, he said something along the lines of: "God, you don't fool me for a second. I know that it's you who are doing all this to me. And I totally trust that it's for my highest good and the highest good of everyone around me."

[Guish]

Although words are ever so inadequate whenever we seek to communicate about the Divine, if we have had profound experiences (such as Guish and Meggings have recently described), then at least we may manage to exchange something meaningful with someone else who had had perhaps rather similar experiences. When it comes to "voidness", one thing I've observed with myself, and apparently with others, is as follows.

There's a realization that sometimes comes rather early on yet it's the most dramatic or the most shattering realization of all. I'm referring to the experience of something quite transcendental to, quite beyond, the world we seem to know and to be in. At the same time, what we experience ever so vividly and undeniably is that this something beyond is somehow totally identical with who we truly are, somewhere inside. One aftermath of this experience is that "normal" reality will seem to have an unreal or dreamlike quality about it for some time afterwards. (animovado once said "Ich Schattenbaum", meaning something like "I and my whole world are just shadows (that only keep breeding more shadows)", which eloquently sums up at least part of this.)

At that point, Source does indeed seem to be pure voidness. But if we wait, and if (the next step) we more and more integrate this realization into our everyday living, eventually Source shows itself not just as "void" but dynamically interactive with us in certain ways, and opening up infinities and sublime Truths to us. Ironically, though, before that interactive stage takes on, everyone seems to experience the most massive peace and silence, which kind of knocks out the ordinary mind like a sledgehammer. That stunned silence lasts for a period, but eventually that interactive stage seems to begin.

But even that absolute, shattering, bottomless silence is not nothing, not pure "voidness", as far as I can tell. Because each time it occurs, or when it occurs, it massively seems to dissolve one's problems. Not solve them , but shift one's perspective on them, so that one now sees them as challenges instead of problems. I could of course quote the Sufi mystic Rumi here. He would have known that many great Sufi saints before him had been crucified for insisting that they were in fact God (and no doubt that everyone else is as well, if only they'd realize it). He would have known that he was in danger of the same fate, not to mention all the extreme persecution he had already suffered. And still, regarding all that persecution, he said something along the lines of: "God, you don't fool me for a second. I know that it's you who are doing all this to me. And I totally trust that it's for my highest good and the highest good of everyone around me."


Excellent insight, TH. I also noticed that meditation no longer have the same impact as it used to have a long time ago. It's probably because of a shift in consciousness. One tends to see everything as an observer and interact only if it's needed. It's really a massive shift as someone devoid of desires, ambition and mood looks empty to others. Yet, it's the purest state. We became empty of falseness and rich of truth, depth, calmness......

[TraineeHuman]

Some members have recently mentioned fasting as a spiritual practice, and I have expressed my significant reservations and suggested that if people do any fasting at all, they should incorporate significant grounding and staying (self-)empowered, and certainly fast for less than 24 hours at a time. And, indeed, they should preferably learn fully how to detach from their physical body and their 3D identity through meditation first. Some of the issues around this, and also regarding Ahayuasca, are discussed very well in the following Simon Parkes interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic-e0dtRMuo

[Guish]

Some members have recently mentioned fasting as a spiritual practice, and I have expressed my significant reservations and suggested that if people do any fasting at all, they should incorporate significant grounding and staying (self-)empowered, and certainly fast for less than 24 hours at a time. And, indeed, they should preferably learn fully how to detach from their physical body and their 3D identity through meditation first. Some of the issues around this, and also regarding Ahayuasca, are discussed very well in the following Simon Parkes interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic-e0dtRMuo
Good point. There's no spiritual gain in starving oneself to death. The need for food slowly disappears by itself as one gets more detached from the body and its needs. Yogananda recommended fasting with orange juice to clean the body.

[Ikarusion]

so, if i unserstood right and to summarize : the main concern with psychedelic drugs is that they open a gate, or push our conscious up a few dimensions, but in doing so we become vulnerable to psychic attacks or even could become a host for malevolent entities. next to maybe not knowing that we also loosened the grip on our ego to run rampant.

in the case of shamanic use there is great respect and protection being used at ceremonies, yet one might get unlucky and attend a ceremony of an imposter with bad intentions or will have a very different experience since ones bloodline is totally unfamiliar with the plants.

thats basically it, right? the risks outweigh the benefits.

[Guish]

so, if i unserstood right and to summarize : the main concern with psychedelic drugs is that they open a gate, or push our conscious up a few dimensions, but in doing so we become vulnerable to psychic attacks or even could become a host for malevolent entities. next to maybe not knowing that we also loosened the grip on our ego to run rampant.

in the case of shamanic use there is great respect and protection being used at ceremonies, yet one might get unlucky and attend a ceremony of an imposter with bad intentions or will have a very different experience since ones bloodline is totally unfamiliar with the plants.

thats basically it, right? the risks outweigh the benefits.

There's no shortcut to awakening. One should take the time to practise, reflect and communicate. I'd never recommend the use of external substances to reach it. There's spiritual maturity as one progresses slowly. In my experiences, I had my body rocking like an earthquake during meditation. When I slept, I saw shadows on the walls of the room and I could hear the terrifying shouts of women while meditating or sleeping. Yet, I was unmoved. Previous spiritual practice kept me grounded. There are imposters a lot nowadays. It doesn't mean that spirituality should be avoided. Done with the purest intentions, it's transformative. It's one of the ways of knowing god and really understand there's something behind the body and mind.

[TraineeHuman]

the main concern with psychedelic drugs is that they open a gate, or push our conscious up a few dimensions, but in doing so we become vulnerable to psychic attacks or even could become a host for malevolent entities. next to maybe not knowing that we also loosened the grip on our ego to run rampant.

in the case of shamanic use there is great respect and protection being used at ceremonies


As Guish so accurately put it, there are no shortcuts here. Any supposed shortcut is always a "how", but the only thing that liberates is "whatness", or awareness, while you remain fully sovereign, of a higher/deeper/better "what".

My understanding is that the shaman in charge always quite deliberately relies on very destructive and damaging forces to totally shatter you in any such episode. Then, so the shamanic plan goes, you're forced to bounce back and, almost immediately (or within a few days), massively heal and reconstruct a better you. And you have no option but to do that yourself. Maybe a good shaman can assist in some way, but really it's still you that has to do all the work. Huge. Not some shamanic ceremony. Not some respectful shaman. Well, I'd say that's fine only if you have great strength plus you can activate your own extraordinary powers of rejuvenation at will -- which I guess everyone can, in theory. But in practice, I'm sceptical that many will manage to do that.

If you don't manage to do that, you're crippled, soulwise.

[greybeard]

Deepak Chopra in an interview I listened to recently was in good humour talking about consciousness etc.
said "Science cant locate the self as an in body experience"
They just cant locate anywhere in the body that intellect/self/mind could reside.
Deepak pointed out that mind is a verb rather than a noun.
In other words its an activity.
Anyway
I think it would easier to prove out of body experience.

Chris

[TraineeHuman]

Here are yet more reflections on how we all are continually relating to the Higher Mind or soul (which is what much of this thread has been about), or even to the Divine, although we may altogether fail to notice that we're doing so.


(1) Seeking

Are you conscious of yourself as seeking, in some way or some sense? Do you have a strong thirst? If so, then what you're seeking is, ultimately, happiness, or whatever lies even further beyond happiness. And although you may not have attained such happiness, or not entirely, still you wouldn't be seeking it unless you knew or sensed it was something there, waiting, something beyond the ordinary self.


(2) The inseparability between the individual and the universe from each other

Let me suggest to you that the very notion of either the individual or the universe is each impossible without the other, doesn't even ever make sense without the other. I guess one of the ways to illustrate this is the fact that the only part or version of the universe you can ever experience or be conscious of is the version of "the universe" that is the sum total of all your own consciousness of the universe or whatever is in it. But then, the totality of your own consciousness is totally within you, it's all part of you.

Perhaps paradoxically, though, this doesn't stop the universe from being infinite in many ways (including in space and time, both in the physical sense and in higher senses as well). Meanwhile, the universe relies on you in your individuality to experience finiteness and even to make it possible for the universe to penetrate more deeply into finiteness.


(3) The possibility of being quite superior to what you are at present

Everyone seems to know without doubt that they are searching or thirsting for something superior; that the self-limitations of ego keep putting them into wrong relationship with Truth etc. This implies they know that a superior version of themselves is achievable. And that it will be quite different in that it will be brought up through, and thrive in, the right relationship with Truth etc. It's a bit like there existed other sense-organs than the ones we normally use, and it's simply a matter of waking up and starting to use these new ways of perceiving reality.


(4) The inability to rest unless we feel we have perfect freedom

We can't have ultimate freedom unless we have it all. Somehow we know this, without question. And it's not just a matter of having it all, but of having the All. And the realization of the All in the individual only comes by the transformation of the limited ego into a conscious center of the divine unity and freedom at the point at which the fulfilment arrives.

[Guish]

Here are yet more reflections on how we all are continually relating to the Higher Mind or soul (which is what much of this thread has been about), or even to the Divine, although we may altogether fail to notice that we're doing so.


(1) Seeking

Are you conscious of yourself as seeking, in some way or some sense? Do you have a strong thirst? If so, then what you're seeking is, ultimately, happiness, or whatever lies even further beyond happiness. And although you may not have attained such happiness, or not entirely, still you wouldn't be seeking it unless you knew or sensed it was something there, waiting, something beyond the ordinary self.


(2) The inseparability between the individual and the universe from each other

Let me suggest to you that the very notion of either the individual or the universe is each impossible without the other, doesn't even ever make sense without the other. I guess one of the ways to illustrate this is the fact that the only part or version of the universe you can ever experience or be conscious of is the version of "the universe" that is the sum total of all your own consciousness of the universe or whatever is in it. But then, the totality of your own consciousness is totally within you, it's all part of you.

Perhaps paradoxically, though, this doesn't stop the universe from being infinite in many ways (including in space and time, both in the physical sense and in higher senses as well). Meanwhile, the universe relies on you in your individuality to experience finiteness and even to make it possible for the universe to penetrate more deeply into finiteness.


(3) The possibility of being quite superior to what you are at present

Everyone seems to know without doubt that they are searching or thirsting for something superior; that the self-limitations of ego keep putting them into wrong relationship with Truth etc. This implies they know that a superior version of themselves is achievable. And that it will be quite different in that it will be brought up through, and thrive in, the right relationship with Truth etc. It's a bit like there existed other sense-organs than the ones we normally use, and it's simply a matter of waking up and starting to use these new ways of perceiving reality.


(4) The inability to rest unless we feel we have perfect freedom

We can't have ultimate freedom unless we have it all. Somehow we know this, without question. And it's not just a matter of having it all, but of having the All. And the realization of the All in the individual only comes by the transformation of the limited ego into a conscious center of the divine unity and freedom at the point at which the fulfilment arrives.

Hi TH,

This is so well put. Renunciation is something that invites the soul to operate. All selfless actions allows one to climb the ladder of consciousness. I actually got more when I stopped looking for more. When I stopped having aims or desires some years ago, I got blessed with a son, got promoted to a manager's position and became healthy physically. I'll repeat my advice again. Empty yourself and let god find you.

[TraineeHuman]

All selfless actions allows one to climb the ladder of consciousness. I actually got more when I stopped looking for more. When I stopped having aims or desires some years ago, ... Empty yourself and let god find you.

Yes, taking that step of consciously and deliberately throwing away all desire or wanting is such a huge one. It's a peaceful type of tsunami. Because it automatically brings freedom from most kinds of unhappiness. (And it doesn't mean you stop enjoying good food, etc.)

And that's because desire is the root of all ego. I suspect the saying in the Bible that "money is the root of all evil" was somehow trying to say this. But in the Bible they didn't quite get it right, because money isn't good or bad per se, but neutral -- though the draconian financial system does quite often pervert that neutrality into something oppressive, kind of like some drug addiction that compels one to act against one's true inner nature.

[Ikarusion]

i would like to divert for a moment to ask of your personal opinion on this matter: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?82058-Turds-of-Karma
my question: is gnosticism in essence right? what do you believe? how does it appear to you from what you have learned through meditation, obe's or other practices?

regards,
ika

[TraineeHuman]

Ika, I have the following comments in response to the link you quoted -- though I'm afraid I don't see how it's necessarily connected to gnosticism.

Beyond duality, there's a higher kind of truth, a higher goodness, and so on. Such truth, goodness, and so on, doesn't have any opposite -- or, if you like, in each case it's its own opposite. Imagine that Source does certain things. All such things are automatically good and right, because there is absolutely nothing beyond Source. Not even any "space". No opposition to Source at all. Source has the golden touch. Everything it ever does is automatically right.

So, there are two senses of "good" and "truth" and "light" and so on. One sense is the sense that has an opposite: good versus evil, truth versus falsehood, light versus darkness (physically or metaphorically or energetically).

The other sense is the beyond duality sense. This is very hard for the ordinary mind to make sense of. You have to experience this, or else learn how to know stuff directly via your Higher Mind instead of living in some sort of mentally constructed "universe" the way most people do. Also, for example, our (ordinary) minds tend to equate pleasure and "feeling good" with each other. Yet Bliss is what lies primarily quite transcendent to pleasure, pain and indifference. It's really quite (equally) transcendent to all of these three, but you need to experience that directly and extensively before you can see that it's so. Bliss isn't an extreme form of pleasure, actually. (There are many reasons why. One is that the seeking of pleasure and the avoidance of pain get totally entangled with each other, for instance. In Bliss, you're actually in a position beyond "I dislike" as well as beyond "I like".)

The worlds of non-duality are free of many, many things. This great freedom is why it's so great to learn to operate from outside the ego -- at least partly, at least some of the time, whatever you can manage.

Also, there's no battle going on at all, whatsoever, between good (in the higher, i.e. the non-dual, sense) and evil. they simply have no relationship with each other.

The underlying problem in the worlds of duality is often where to find the unity in difference. Not so in the transcendental worlds. Plus how not to get enslaved to duality, as far as practicable.

The ordinary mind sees itself as cut off from the Oneness -- and that's the source of all our self-limitation and the whole fall into a world less than what the universal is.

Some of these topics are incredibly beautiful to experience or know. More beautiful than anything else, anywhere, including the most wonderful love between people and whatever else.

[Ikarusion]

thank you, trainee.

i connected the article to gnosticism because, if i remeber correctly they believe the demiurge has made our physical world and is "enslaving" us here and feeding of us, our energy.
since the article mentioned him and how his underlings deceive us in the afterlife with a false life review to manipulate us into reincarnating here over and over again, i was interested to see what the people that frequent this thread thought of that aspect of the article.

or maybe simpler: do i have to tell everyone in the afterlife to bugger off and request or go to higher plains or source, as to not be manipulated into something i am not absolutely willing to do?

trainee, you mentioned before how the lower astral is filled with dead people and i believe some negative entities.
could it be that some pick up new people and lie to them to get them to do things they want?
i ask because i can be a little naive and wouldnt mind interacting with beings, but at the same time i dont like to be super vigilant and constantly ask myself if i can trust who im with either.

hmm, i wonder if there's some sort of astral/ethric crash course people can participate in after death or if we remember the ins and outs once we shed everything that tied us to our last incarnation.

thinking about it, i suppose in times of doubt it should suffice to call upon your guardians or remember that you are part of source and just ask it if you can trust someone, or just try to shine your devine light upon the entity your suspicious of and see if they are repelled by it.

[TraineeHuman]

or maybe simpler: do i have to tell everyone in the afterlife to bugger off and request or go to higher plains or source, as to not be manipulated into something i am not absolutely willing to do?

trainee, you mentioned before how the lower astral is filled with dead people and i believe some negative entities.
could it be that some pick up new people and lie to them to get them to do things they want?
i ask because i can be a little naive and wouldnt mind interacting with beings, but at the same time i dont like to be super vigilant and constantly ask myself if i can trust who im with either.

hmm, i wonder if there's some sort of astral/ethric crash course people can participate in after death or if we remember the ins and outs once we shed everything that tied us to our last incarnation.

thinking about it, i suppose in times of doubt it should suffice to call upon your guardians or remember that you are part of source and just ask it if you can trust someone, or just try to shine your devine light upon the entity your suspicious of and see if they are repelled by it.

You've actually asked a whole lot of questions there, Ika. But I suggest the number one important question is, can you develop your consciousness highly enough now, while you're alive in the physical? When you die, you have greater energy, much greater awareness, greater powers and abilities and did I say energy, and joy, than what you have now. This is because up till that point it will have taken your soul, your Higher Mind, your psychic self -- call it what you will -- enormous amounts of awareness and energy to keep your unconscious going (which dissolves away at death) and also to keep your physical body going (breathing, digestion, circulation, the energy meridians, the immune system, and all the rest). So, at death you have the opportunity to really step up higher in one big step, if you've developed your awareness.

Certainly, after death you can't be misled nearly so much the way you can be while you still have a physical body and you go astral traveling and possibly meet various deceptive beings. After death -- and actually, also while physically alive and once you've become fluent at OB travel or even at OB being (where "travel" is seen as an illusion) -- you just gravitate mostly to beings, living or dead, who are likeminded and of a similar "vibrational" level to your own. You then, normally, bypass all deceptiveness -- though maybe you'll still meet some well-meaning relatives who aren't to be trusted fully because they don't know any better. Plus any false beliefs you still have will trap you in some way. So basically, the afterlife situation is much less potentially deceptive than the still physically alive situation. I know there's stuff in the Tibetan Book of the Living and Dying that talks about being caught in one illusion or another, but that was meant in a very existential (or metaphysical) sense -- in other words, that what you need to worry about is how fully you've developed your consciousness, and then that determines the quality of what you can see. And whatever you see, that's what you get.

There certainly are hostile Forces. But the primary way to overcome their attempted sabotage or interference is to learn how to ignore them. (That takes practice to learn to do it properly.) The basic thing they want to stop is your development into having greater consciousness. All the fear-mongering about being enslaved etc etc etc in the afterlife is basically pure nonsense, as far as I'm aware, unless the individual has mental health problems. I suggest you shouldn't worry about it at all. Their (the hostile Forces') hands are the ones that are tied. They're trying to take your eye off the main prize. Simple as that. That's not to deny that there are greys who mess around with people's astral bodies or mental bodies, whether the people are living or dead. But you certainly are not your emotional body or your mental body. You should learn how to utterly detach, or go still in relation to, those bodies. Learn to be aware of who you truly are -- beyond thoughts and feelings and memories. (Points of view, intentions, bliss, the flow of inspirations, the merging of will and truth into one, and many other such wonderful things.) That's not an optional extra, but it's what everybody should be learning to do, masterfully. I appreciate that sounds weird, and it means being able to disregard whatever you're thinking or feeling in any given situation. But you can soon then learn how to quickly change the feeling to bliss, and that puts you out of the game (of playing victim to what your emotional body is feeling).

I can say some of these things because I know I happen to be a guardian angel on vacation. During my life I've had many telepathic encounters with dead individuals who seemed to assume I was a guardian angel doing that job in a normal way and that I was currently in the afterlife -- and they were just seeking my assistance, which they assumed I was bound to carry out since that was my job, they thought. Quite surreal, at times. During my mid- to late- twenties I often used to usually have thirty or forty dead individuals trying to follow me absolutely everywhere, for instance. So I do know that in the afterlife the g.a.s are in charge and have a free run over everything. The g.a.s are the rulers, or, rather, the CEOs. Certainly not the Archons. Everything that goes on happens strictly because the g.a.s decide it's OK to permit it (often temporarily), for whatever reasons. I've seen enough that I believe I know that the stories about enslavement etc (except with mental health problems, and then only temporarily) in the afterlife are quite false -- except for the enslavement of the hostile Forces themselves, actually, and people's self-enslavement that's their own doing. (If you build it, they will come.) Some small sub-percentage of people do trap themselves, admittedly, or get earthbound for decades.

And these so-called gnostics of yours: have they had lengthy one-to-one encounters with the greatest of the benevolent Gods, such as Shiva and Gaia, as I have? Or do they get their info through some kind of chanelling or books or whatever? Or through making up clever theories? Why is at least some of their info so inaccurate, as far as I'm aware?

Not that I'm denying that the hostile Forces are Powers of darkness who are in revolt against the Light and the Truth and want to keep the physical world under their rule in darkness and ignorance. That's the physical world. But the afterlife world is under the rule of the angelics. Whenever anyone wants to reach the Truth while they're in the physical, to realise the Divine while in the physical world, the hostile Forces stand in the way as much as possible. But in the afterlife they're under a leash and their effectiveness is curtailed.

[Ikarusion]

thank you for your elaborate answer. very good to hear.
i dont know any so-called gnostics. i just read a bit about them online last year, hence i dont know where their "wisdom" comes from.

thank you for your clarification,
ika

[Wind]

The g.a.s are the rulers, or, rather, the CEOs. Certainly not the Archons. Everything that goes on happens strictly because the g.a.s decide it's OK to permit it (often temporarily), for whatever reasons. I've seen enough that I believe I know that the stories about enslavement etc (except with mental health problems, and then only temporarily) in the afterlife are quite false -- except for the enslavement of the hostile Forces themselves, actually, and people's self-enslavement that's their own doing. (If you build it, they will come.) Some small sub-percentage of people do trap themselves, admittedly, or get earthbound for decades.

And these so-called gnostics of yours: have they had lengthy one-to-one encounters with the greatest of the benevolent Gods, such as Shiva and Gaia, as I have? Or do they get their info through some kind of chanelling or books or whatever? Or through making up clever theories? Why is at least some of their info so inaccurate, as far as I'm aware?

Not that I'm denying that the hostile Forces are Powers of darkness who are in revolt against the Light and the Truth and want to keep the physical world under their rule in darkness and ignorance. That's the physical world. But the afterlife world is under the rule of the angelics. Whenever anyone wants to reach the Truth while they're in the physical, to realise the Divine while in the physical world, the hostile Forces stand in the way as much as possible. But in the afterlife they're under a leash and their effectiveness is curtailed.

I just often click thanks, but I wanted actually to say thank you TH for this post. Very good and important one. I too have thought that the stuff about after life false light traps is just pure fearlful nonsense which is actually harmful to people's mental health. You actually have direct experience when it comes to these issues so it just confirms certain things, but unfortunately many are still lead astray. Thanks again for this thread, I always read it with interest.

[Guish]

And these so-called gnostics of yours: have they had lengthy one-to-one encounters with the greatest of the benevolent Gods, such as Shiva and Gaia, as I have?



Would you mind telling us more about this TH?

[TraineeHuman]

And these so-called gnostics of yours: have they had lengthy one-to-one encounters with the greatest of the benevolent Gods, such as Shiva and Gaia, as I have?



Would you mind telling us more about this TH?

It's kind of private, unfortunately. I did manage to ascertain some things, such as that the benevolent Gods have all had many human incarnations and come up through the ranks, as it were. Amazingly heroic individuals. I also found, though, that they want to be worshipped in some way, however subtly. At that point I gave up any interest in communicating with them.

But they are benevolent, and without question they do have the upper hand, power-wise -- along with the original creators of intelligent beings in this galaxy. They only allow the dark Forces, some of whom were also formerly Gods, it seems, to do their damage because that ultimately makes humans stronger, in the grand scheme of things. Also because it will eventually result in the dark beings returning to the light, and that seems to be the only way such beings are going to learn.

[Guish]

You have gone a long way my friend. I'm not sure where I'm on the journey and I don't ask myself that question too much. The Gita says that everything was " Chit at the start" and the pure consciousness descended into matter and go entangled with it. With time, the chit has to go to it's initial state and hence becomes disinterested with matter, pretty much what's happening to a lot of people. Eventually, if one returns to the source, one is just pure energy, consciousness. I learnt somewhere that Shiv was the first yogi on Earth to transcend duality. That's why I asked.

[TraineeHuman]

The Gita says that everything was " Chit at the start" and the pure consciousness descended into matter and go entangled with it. With time, the chit has to go to it's initial state and hence becomes disinterested with matter, pretty much what's happening to a lot of people. Eventually, if one returns to the source, one is just pure energy, consciousness. I learnt somewhere that Shiv was the first yogi on Earth to transcend duality. That's why I asked.

One reason I'd prefer not to comment much about the Gods is that for too many people the topic is heavily loaded with religious beliefs of some kind. Their particular God supposedly has to be the greatest. I've only very briefly encountered Yeshua and Judas, for instance, but, just as far as I could see, they didn't seem to have the profundity of wisdom that Shiva (who I believe was also called Dionysus, among other names) has. But as you say, it's ultimately all about somehow getting the Divine spark within each of ourselves to catch fire. Ultimately I think the Gods are only useful as reflections or clear reminders of something great inside each of ourselves, something that needs to be transformed from mostly a potential state into an active state. (And let's ignore the tales about the fallen (ex-)Gods.) They show us what's possible for all. Do we dare to become quietly great, and not in some superficial egoistic sense?

[Guish]

One reason I'd prefer not to comment much about the Gods is that for too many people the topic is heavily loaded with religious beliefs of some kind. Their particular God supposedly has to be the greatest. I've only very briefly encountered Yeshua and Judas, for instance, but, just as far as I could see, they didn't seem to have the profundity of wisdom that Shiva (who I believe was also called Dionysus, among other names) has. But as you say, it's ultimately all about somehow getting the Divine spark within each of ourselves to catch fire. Ultimately I think the Gods are only useful as reflections or clear reminders of something great inside each of ourselves, something that needs to be transformed from mostly a potential state into an active state. (And let's ignore the tales about the fallen (ex-)Gods.) They show us what's possible for all. Do we dare to become quietly great, and not in some superficial egoistic sense?

Being born in a Hindu family, I can understand the bias you're talking about. Shiv Puranas have some great insights. If I find a decent copy, I'll attach it for people to read here. I once had an experience where I saw a form which was a mixture of Krishna and Buddha. I was meditating intensely at that time. Not sure if it was mind playing tricks because I was in a state of bliss when I saw it. I also visualized myself teaching others about spirituality. Your last line is spot on. Enlightenment is a quiet process. There's no need to prove anything.

[greybeard]

There are different levels of understanding all true and relevant at that stage.
Mooji said that if the person saw God or any divine being then that is an illusion trick of the mind.
Reason being that a person in illusion can only see illusion. They are seeing in duality. (what I saw)
Thus these experiences are both encouraging and a distraction.
The Buddha was tempted by all kinds of "spiritual" visions.
On enlightenment perception changes radically---there is no longer a persons point of view/perception.
Awareness is aware----that's as best I can do--not being enlightened.

I keep coming back to the opening post on Tim's thread.

Chris

[Guish]

There are different levels of understanding all true and relevant at that stage.
Mooji said that if the person saw God or any divine being then that is an illusion trick of the mind.
Reason being that a person in illusion can only see illusion. They are seeing in duality. (what I saw)
Thus these experiences are both encouraging and a distraction.
The Buddha was tempted by all kinds of "spiritual" visions.
On enlightenment perception changes radically---there is no longer a persons point of view/perception.
Awareness is aware----that's as best I can do--not being enlightened.

I keep coming back to the opening post on Tim's thread.

Chris

I'd say it's beyond description. That's why there's this vast emptiness and quietness. A sign of getting close to enlightenment are sudden moments of peace and tranquility when it's not expected. If you've not seen this BBC doc, it's worth watching it.

YsEksMEE2Eg

[Rich]

Mooji said that if the person saw God or any divine being then that is an illusion trick of the mind.
Reason being that a person in illusion can only see illusion.



In an absolute sense you are right Chris.
As Bashar has said: ''There can really be no other except as an experience, but not as an actual existence.''


But he also said that we can be anything we can imagine, whatever we can imagine to be is already contained in us.
Something like: You do not have the ability to imagine what you do not have the ability to become,
you do not have the ability to imagine what you do not already contain!

What makes you think that these gods are more illusory than you and me?

I wouldn't take what the enlightened say too literal, how much do they really know??

We must consider that this earthly existence may be a very limit perception of life.

From a higher perspective this whole universe is just a single thought of our higher self,
but through concepts we can experience it as though it is many thoughts, many experiences.

[Guish]

So far, I've understood one thing. The only thing that can be real will be the thing that cannot change. Hence, most things would be illusions.

[Rich]

Yeap Guish, it doesn't need a thought or a belief or anything. Truth stands by itself.
That's why for me, best way is to make no effort, that way I feel I get the closest to truth. :dog:

Apologies to Chris, my attitude was kind of arrogant, not my words themselves but my attitude was off... as if I knew what people should believe.

I do think there is an absolute truth but within that any reality can be created, and the reality differs for everyone.

Bashar has said, the truth is that all truths are true because there is nothing outside of the imagination of the Creator.

[Finefeather]

I do think there is an absolute truth but within that any reality can be created, and the reality differs for everyone.
An absolute truth cannot have different realities...only different interpretations, which are created by been ignorant of the absolute truth.


Bashar has said, the truth is that all truths are true because there is nothing outside of the imagination of the Creator.
Well sure... all truths are true...but who determines what is truth and what is not? ...and not all imagination is true...so this Bashar statement is false.

There is only one reality... and it is only ignorance which creates it's own reality and calls it real.

No human can determine absolute reality and truth because humans cannot yet be conscious of higher atomic worlds above the causal world. If you are able to be conscious of worlds above the causal, then you will not be a human anymore, and you will know that there is only one absolute reality...and it will not be the one which the majority of humans think it is.

Humans know so little because they are so little...and that is not an insult, just a fact, which will, by the process of consciousness evolution, change as you begin to see the real reality.

Bashar also puts out a lot of other fictitious material, but when absolute truth and reality are not known... then, any good story sounds real.

Take special care
Ray

[Rich]

That's extremely interesting, thank you Finefeather.



There is only one reality... and it is only ignorance which creates it's own reality and calls it real.

Sounds a lot like what ACIM would say.



No human can determine absolute reality
If you had read my other posts you would see that I too belief that humans have a limited perspective.



humans cannot yet be conscious of higher atomic worlds above the causal world.
What is the difference between the ''casual'' and ''higher atomic world'' as you call them?



If you are able to be conscious of worlds above the causal, then you will not be a human anymore, and you will know that there is only one absolute reality...

[Finefeather]

What is the difference between the ''casual'' and ''higher atomic world'' as you call them?

When the current human monads (those incarnating now in human organisms) progressed from the animal kingdom to the human kingdom, they individualized...ie they went from an animal group soul to an individual causal envelope.
However...Not all current humans have come from the animal kingdom...some have moved over/changed their evolutionary path, from the deva kingdom to the human kingdom evolutionary chain...but these are rare and few.

The causal envelope is what distinguishes humans from lower kingdoms...and ONLY humans have this envelope...it is equivalent to what some have called the higher mental plane...but I find that a little lacking because it is far more than a mental plane.

So humans have a limited field of consciousness expansion and these are the etheric, the emotional/astral, the mental and then only the causal world...so the fact that we have a causal envelope means that we are in the process of realizing this.

Each of these levels have sub levels and this makes for great confusion amongst those who believe they have reached great heights of consciousness awareness...like many of the 'famous' Indian gurus who, although somewhat further developed than some humans, are still a long way from causal consciousness.

The goal of humans is to achieve full causal consciousness after which they move into the next higher kingdom, called the essential kingdom/world...then there is still another higher level to achieve before we enter the Cosmic inner worlds...no human is close to these levels of consciousness yet...but many pretend to be, or think they are.

Only when this is complete...and the majority of humans have millions of years to go to achieve this...are they then considered as causal Selves...a Causal Self is someone who has completed the human cycle of rebirth because consciousness expansion in the causal envelope has been realized...from that point on incarnation into a human body is a choice, for some reason like service to humanity.

If you are a Causal Self you will know it for sure at some point in your life...but there are many who pretend to be this when their writings indicate differently.

So the higher atomic worlds are those worlds above the mental world...we have:
Physical world...(physical and etheric)...Emotional world...and Mental/Causal world.

As I have stated previously... no human is capable of accessing worlds above the causal level because humans only become Causal Selves...capable of this...when they complete the human cycle.

I realize that what I have written may not be accepted by you or anyone...and so be it.

Ray

PS: There are 2 waves of humans currently incarnating into organic bodies...older 'souls' who have not yet realised full causal consciousness...and the new 'souls' who individualized some 10 million years ago.

[Guish]

What is the difference between the ''casual'' and ''higher atomic world'' as you call them?

When the current human monads (those incarnating now in human organisms) progressed from the animal kingdom to the human kingdom, they individualized...ie they went from an animal group soul to an individual causal envelope.
However...Not all current humans have come from the animal kingdom...some have moved over/changed their evolutionary path, from the deva kingdom to the human kingdom evolutionary chain...but these are rare and few.

The causal envelope is what distinguishes humans from lower kingdoms...and ONLY humans have this envelope...it is equivalent to what some have called the higher mental plane...but I find that a little lacking because it is far more than a mental plane.

So humans have a limited field of consciousness expansion and these are the etheric, the emotional/astral, the mental and then only the causal world...so the fact that we have a causal envelope means that we are in the process of realizing this.

Each of these levels have sub levels and this makes for great confusion amongst those who believe they have reached great heights of consciousness awareness...like many of the 'famous' Indian gurus who, although somewhat further developed than some humans, are still a long way from causal consciousness.

The goal of humans is to achieve full causal consciousness after which they move into the next higher kingdom, called the essential kingdom/world...then there is still another higher level to achieve before we enter the Cosmic inner worlds...no human is close to these levels of consciousness yet...but many pretend to be, or think they are.

Only when this is complete...and the majority of humans have millions of years to go to achieve this...are they then considered as causal Selves...a Causal Self is someone who has completed the human cycle of rebirth because consciousness expansion in the causal envelope has been realized...from that point on incarnation into a human body is a choice, for some reason like service to humanity.

If you are a Causal Self you will know it for sure at some point in your life...but there are many who pretend to be this when their writings indicate differently.

So the higher atomic worlds are those worlds above the mental world...we have:
Physical world...(physical and etheric)...Emotional world...and Mental/Causal world.

As I have stated previously... no human is capable of accessing worlds above the causal level because humans only become Causal Selves...capable of this...when they complete the human cycle.

I realize that what I have written may not be accepted by you or anyone...and so be it.

Ray

PS: There are 2 waves of humans currently incarnating into organic bodies...older 'souls' who have not yet realised full causal consciousness...and the new 'souls' who individualized some 10 million years ago.

Ray, how did you come up with that conclusion?

[Finefeather]

Ray, how did you come up with that conclusion?
It would be impossible to answer your question with what might seemingly be your expectations..but the short answer is:

Remembrance anew and Self realization.

Remembrance anew is remembering ones past knowledge by triggers which open your mind.
I have also worked, out of body, in the astral/emotional world since I was 27.
I have also attended halls of learning in the mental planes on numerous occasions.

Self realization is knowing who and what you really are.
We are actually each individual monads...a single primordial atom... which is billions of years old...each of us have developed our consciousness from virtually zero to what it is now...a truly amazing accomplishment which can only truly be realized when you realize from where you have come from.

Most humans think they are human...have always been human...and will never be anything else but human...but this is not so.

We each have a past which is so incredible that it will make your jaw drop if you could get your head around it.

We each have a future ahead of us which no human words can describe...and which is so advanced, from what humans believe, that it cannot be fully communicated at this point in time, because human consciousness cannot grasp the vastness of it yet.

Ray

[Andrew]

What is the difference between the ''casual'' and ''higher atomic world'' as you call them?

When the current human monads (those incarnating now in human organisms) progressed from the animal kingdom to the human kingdom, they individualized...ie they went from an animal group soul to an individual causal envelope.
However...Not all current humans have come from the animal kingdom...some have moved over/changed their evolutionary path, from the deva kingdom to the human kingdom evolutionary chain...but these are rare and few.

The causal envelope is what distinguishes humans from lower kingdoms...and ONLY humans have this envelope...it is equivalent to what some have called the higher mental plane...but I find that a little lacking because it is far more than a mental plane.

So humans have a limited field of consciousness expansion and these are the etheric, the emotional/astral, the mental and then only the causal world...so the fact that we have a causal envelope means that we are in the process of realizing this.

Each of these levels have sub levels and this makes for great confusion amongst those who believe they have reached great heights of consciousness awareness...like many of the 'famous' Indian gurus who, although somewhat further developed than some humans, are still a long way from causal consciousness.

The goal of humans is to achieve full causal consciousness after which they move into the next higher kingdom, called the essential kingdom/world...then there is still another higher level to achieve before we enter the Cosmic inner worlds...no human is close to these levels of consciousness yet...but many pretend to be, or think they are.

Only when this is complete...and the majority of humans have millions of years to go to achieve this...are they then considered as causal Selves...a Causal Self is someone who has completed the human cycle of rebirth because consciousness expansion in the causal envelope has been realized...from that point on incarnation into a human body is a choice, for some reason like service to humanity.

If you are a Causal Self you will know it for sure at some point in your life...but there are many who pretend to be this when their writings indicate differently.

So the higher atomic worlds are those worlds above the mental world...we have:
Physical world...(physical and etheric)...Emotional world...and Mental/Causal world.

As I have stated previously... no human is capable of accessing worlds above the causal level because humans only become Causal Selves...capable of this...when they complete the human cycle.

I realize that what I have written may not be accepted by you or anyone...and so be it.

Ray

PS: There are 2 waves of humans currently incarnating into organic bodies...older 'souls' who have not yet realised full causal consciousness...and the new 'souls' who individualized some 10 million years ago.

In a nutshell that's "wow" thanks for writing that. :)

[greybeard]

All respect to Ray--He is a font of knowledge, well researched and verified by his personal experience.

I am aware that enlightenment is not the end result.
At a higher level it might be seen as kindergarten.
However enlightenment is achievable here and now.
You cant move beyond human "illusion" without enlightenment and it is not a stage that can be by passed, jumped over, the Self has to be realized or back you come, reincarnating yet again.
So is enlightenment important? --you bet it is. Its "The Graduation" from this school of Earth.

Chris

[Rich]

So is enlightenment important? --you bet it is. Its "The Graduation" from this school of Earth.




The goal of humans is to achieve full causal consciousness after which they move into the next higher kingdom


So what you call full causal consciousness is another word for enlightenment?
And why do you say the Indian gurus are not enlightened?

[Andrew]

So is enlightenment important? --you bet it is. Its "The Graduation" from this school of Earth.




The goal of humans is to achieve full causal consciousness after which they move into the next higher kingdom


So what you call full causal consciousness is another word for enlightenment?
And why do you say the Indian gurus are not enlightened?

He** didnt, if you read it properly!

[greybeard]

Think Ray commented on the Indian gurus at another time in another thread.
He might want to clarify.
I don't agree with everything Ray has ever posted, nor does he agree with some of "my" posts, but he has my respect.

Chris

[Finefeather]

So what you call full causal consciousness is another word for enlightenment?
And why do you say the Indian gurus are not enlightened?
Enlightenment is not the same as achieving Causal Consciouness.

The greatest flaw in the philosophy of 'enlightenment' is it's very many possible meanings...and the shear diversity of it's possible interpretation.

The word 'enlightenment' can be used correctly in any situation where someone is less informed than another...so we could say to anyone who is ignorant of the most mundane fact that they need to become enlightened.

Barbarism is a classic case where becoming enlightened is when these ideals are replaced by, say humanism. But even the humanist needs enlightenment.

There is no moment when anyone becomes enlightened...full stop...because the very word implies that there is something else...maybe in another field... that we can become enlightened about.

We only need to look at the history of science to see the many graduations of enlightenment.

Even our dark brother of the so called illuminati become enlightened... enlightenment happens every day to someone

In and around the 17th century western religions despised the Indian philosophy, which was considered 'evil' because it had no place where we could be saved from ours sins. Indian philosophy became popular in the western world when it was associated with the hippies and smoking pot to trip out to some unknown supposed higher realm...which is of cause just an illusion.

Indian fake gurus performing all sort of tricks and magic became the in thing, which wowed the ignorant into following their supposed enlightened path.

The finest Indian philosophy can be found in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. It can be established that Patanjali’s Sutras certainly contain the knowledge of reality but also that no yoga philosopher has been able to interpret them correctly, since no yoga philosopher has yet become a causal self.

The “nirvana” of the yogi is the individual’s state of sleep in his causal envelope after the dissolution of his mental envelope. That “extinction” is no annihilation, however. Neither yogis nor Buddhists grasp what Buddha meant by nirvana. It should be added, moreover, that Buddhism is a distortion of the teaching of Buddha just as Christianity is a distortion of the teaching of Christos.

The nirvana of the yoga philosophers is at best the causal world, in which they lose their consciousness. The yoga philosophers deal with their own imaginative constructions which have no correspondences in reality. The yogis have misunderstood Patanjaliís Sutras completely. They read their own findings and experiences into his account, which was intended for initiates. And the result is just one great delusion.

The greatest myth and non event of Yoga/Indian philosophy is the idea of annihilation of the self...which is impossible to say the least. I hear so many talk of 'becoming one with source' when they have no idea that they are their own source...which is actually what Self realisation is about.

Never ever do we 'merge with source' because we are already our own individual 'source'. The word 'source' is a misnomer in the context of it's use in spirituality.

What merges are the individuals with common ideals and goals into a powerful collective. This simple thing has been misinterpreted by humans who believe they must sacrifice themselves to some non existent god...who has been renamed by some as 'source'.

I hear people talk of body, soul and spirit as if they are separate things which we need to somehow merge… when we are actually each always everyone of these. Matter, consciousness and motion cannot be separated...ever.

I spent years as a Buddhist...I served in a Buddhist retreat centre...and the goal is bleak once you have reached the so called state of 'enlightenment'...why?...because it is far far from the real goal.

But let me not deter you from your choice of reality because each life is a learning experience and no one can, or ever will become truly 'enlightened' in any life…

Enlightenment is just another word for consciousness growth...and it never ceases.

In my personal experience with Yoga/Indian philosophy 'enlightenment', I have found that most people who claim this meagre state, are ignorantly arrogant about their supposed status...simply because they cannot yet see what still lies ahead.

There is an esoteric truth which states that the more you know the more you realize how little you know...when you start to realize this then you can consider yourself lucky... because it means that, you will realize that whatever state you are in now... is far far from been enlightened.

Take care
Ray

[greybeard]

Yes Ray a lot of truth in what you say.
Guru get stuck in the side effects of Kundalini---When you can walk on water take the boat is a good expression.
All the tricks that some Gurus can do leads them to having a strong ego--as in, "Im the one who can perform this."
My understanding is that there is no person left to claim enlightenment and it was always inherent but not realised.
For me Tim's thread is clear on what enlightenment is

Look see.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904
Chris

[TraineeHuman]

I don't agree with all your views or (apparent) beliefs, Ray, but it seems to me you certainly have a very valid point in saying that "enlightenment" is a term loaded with ambiguity and varieties of interpretation. Moreover, you're implicitly saying, very truly, that the ascent of the soul has many transitions as it passes from matter to life-force to mind to lower consciousness to higher consciousness and on. At each such stage ignorance gets shaken off. Chris considers as crucial that point at which that ignorance is shaken off that obliges us to reincarnate here.

As I understand in both the Vedanta tradition and the Ch'an tradition, the biggest leap of all in many, many ways is that from having a mentally/conceptually defined (and therefore imprisoned) "self" to a "self" based on knowing, such knowing being not intellectual any more but more complete. That transition is the greatest one, to my understanding. Surely, such a transition is a gigantic discarding of the chains of ignorance.

The Ch'an masters and many Indian adepts were considered to have realized that transition and much more, as far as I understand. Certainly, you could say it's only one step beyond the mental plane(s). One might even point out that in the afterlife the majority of individuals eventually come to rest and "sleep" at a level that lies above the mental levels until their next rebirth. But for many Asian masters that seems to have been only the first hill they have climbed. For instance, many have clearly gone far beyond the "void" and on into the divine worlds, it seems to me. Certainly they've then had to return to living with the limitations of their physical body and their intellect. But you seem to be determined to insist that all their experiences of something greater, something divinely perfect, have been nothing but self-delusion. I don't understand why you would seem to consider you have a superior position to all those great beings, and why you believe you know so much about what they really experienced. I mean, how do you know they all never even touched infinite knowledge?

[Guish]

There is no moment when anyone becomes enlightened...full stop...because the very word implies that there is something else...maybe in another field... that we can become enlightened about.



Very valid point. However, people are not aware that there is something called the source. The most interesting thing is to realise the source is to fully be the source as there's no duality there. One is not different from the source to experience it. One is just the source. It is so hard to put in words, Ray. It has to be ambiguous. Material disentanglement is a long process with many phases. My experience of source is pure energy and there's no way to describe what's infinite, timeless and formless. TH doesn't like when I use the word void but I can't really describe it in other ways.

[greybeard]

Whatever you want to call it there is no denying that it occurs.
Ramana Maharshi is classic---a teen with no spiritual ambition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi

There are fuller descriptions than can be found in Google search

Chris

[greybeard]

For me Rama is an authority.
He advised using the thorn to extract the thorn then throw both away.
So the intellect is used to remove the ego then both are discarded.
He advocated self inquiry.
Not this, not this, is helpful.
So through the process of elimination the Self is revealed.

Its a radically different process from Ray's and it is producing results.
There is a linage from Ramana of enlightened.

One indicator, Ramana said you can tell the degree of progress by the level of quietness of the mind.
This leads to thoughtless awareness.

Sorry TraineeHuman if this thread has become a little of topic.

Love
Chris

[Finefeather]

The most interesting thing is to realise the source is to fully be the source as there's no duality there. One is not different from the source to experience it. One is just the source. It is so hard to put in words, Ray. It has to be ambiguous. Material disentanglement is a long process with many phases. My experience of source is pure energy and there's no way to describe what's infinite, timeless and formless. TH doesn't like when I use the word void but I can't really describe it in other ways.
Now you see this is very interesting what you have said here.

Now please know that I am not here to try to convince you or anyone of anything I state because each will and must find the answers him/her self :)

You say you have found a solution to duality, by becoming one with this 'source' you believe exists...but this would only be necessary if you perceive duality as a part of your life...and 'source' as been something which you need to 'merge' with to end duality.

What I am saying...and what I have realised...is that there never was a separation from this 'source' because it is this 'source' which is the real you...the real Being. In true esoterics this 'source' is known as a monad...which is a single primordial atom.

So duality is only... and simply... a temporary confusion whilst we struggle to get to grips with what is termed 'Self realization'...once we realise who and what we actually are, duality is resolved.

Now even if someone want's to call this enlightenment...then so be it...because it would certainly be one of the most important things in consciousness growth...but...it is still only the beginning of the rest of our growth towards becoming a Causal Self.

You also state that source is pure energy.
In my finding this is not possible because if 'source' is the real Being... as I understand it… then it must also contain all of our past history which we have accumulated for billions of years...this would be our full current state of consciousness...and consciousness is definitely not energy.

Ray

Just a little interesting thing to consider about energy:
Energy cannot be detected without matter…
There is not one example anyone can give where energy can be shown to exist without the presence of matter.
The only way we know energy to exist is when it interacts with matter in some form.
This is one of the mysteries of energy.
When you think you have an answer...know that you have it wrong...try to think carefully :)

Take care

[greybeard]

Yes Ray that is illusion--the thought that there ever was a separate self.
Only one without a second
"I am the totality all of it"--is what some Indian sages have said.
Mooji says "Even I am, is incorrect, there is only am" in other words that which is-- there is no "I"

People go through stages of discovery--so they are met where they stand.
Takes a lot to realise that you don't exist as a person.

Love Chris

[TraineeHuman]

My experience of source is pure energy and there's no way to describe what's infinite, timeless and formless. TH doesn't like when I use the word void but I can't really describe it in other ways.

I guess I'm interested in the action that goes on without, however calm and profound a voidness or silence and impersonality one may have within. How effective is the outward action? How desireless, yet how useful, how constructive, how needed?

Also, there are different qualities or types of voidness. Some are totally universal, for instance. And on the other hand, sometimes some mistake formlessness for voidness -- and that's something quite different from the voidness that Source possesses.

Also, I don't always entirely like using the word "voidness" or "emptiness" because that so-called emptiness is more alive, more dynamic, more intelligent, more free than anything else. The rest of reality is just its shadow, and not the other way around. Everything that's superior to the ego comes out of that "emptiness", inspired by its "energy". To the Western-conditioned individual, though, "emptiness" somehow implies a huge lack of intelligence and life. I do appreciate, though, that the big picture is that it all takes place within the unknowable ultimately, which we can never grasp, however much we may seem we might do for some fleeting moment.

[Rich]

I like what another bob said here:

Enlightenment is what we already are, but we submit to a kind of amnesia in order for the human experience to seem real. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=457433&viewfull=1#post457433

My theory on this:

Those who are enlightened or of ''casual consciousness'' still participate in the physical illusion/dream which is just a (single) thought of our higher self.

I like to compare this earthly existence to a night dream:

When we know that we dream the dream becomes lucid. (That's probably what I would call enlightenment.)
When we know who we are beyond the dream we wake up and the dream ceases, because it is seen as unreal.

Lester Levenson has said some desire is necessary to stay in this life (for him it was probably the desire to help others).


TH, please let us know if this discussion is off topic.

[Guish]

You also state that source is pure energy.
In my finding this is not possible because if 'source' is the real Being... as I understand it… then it must also contain all of our past history which we have accumulated for billions of years...this would be our full current state of consciousness...and consciousness is definitely not energy.



Good point. It's really beyond words. Apparently, Buddha was able to see all his past lives before enlightenment and they were all noble lives. This proves that it's really a long process. I've not been there yet.

[Guish]

I guess I'm interested in the action that goes on without, however calm and profound a voidness or silence and impersonality one may have within. How effective is the outward action? How desireless, yet how useful, how constructive, how needed?




The inner kingdom has a straight influence on the outer world. I find it strange to have inner peace and not influence the outer world. If that's the case, the calmness is a mental construct and not the real thing. For me, the external actions just happen without the constructive thoughts. I find the actions spontaneous and warm.

[Finefeather]

Also, I don't always entirely like using the word "voidness" or "emptiness" because that so-called emptiness is more alive, more dynamic, more intelligent, more free than anything else.
In esoterics a similar concept or state is called 'the eternal now'...this is when we experience reality both in the present and in the past...all at the same time...the aeonic time appearing to the causal self as timelessness.
However we should not confuse this with the myth that timelessness is possible because no matter which state we...as an individual Self... are in, the cycle of life will continue.

What this does however prove...to me anyway...is that each higher dimension/world which we access appears to stretch time out as we know it in the physical world...but this is the illusion which many get trapped in when they conclude that time stops when out of body or when in meditation in some state.

I have had an amount of years playing and experimenting out of body and in meditation, in various dimensions/worlds, and have come to the conclusion that this 'voidness', which some experience, is nothing more than experiencing the Self in it's individual state...but it is not an easy state to experience...it takes a lot of dedicated meditation and focus.

It's like having a mind expansion, you can remember a lot of things which you have done in a flash and these events just seem to flood into your consciousness without any noticeable effort.

Ray

[Finefeather]

Apparently, Buddha was able to see all his past lives before enlightenment and they were all noble lives. This proves that it's really a long process. I've not been there yet.
Well according to my experience Buddha...and Christos...were extremely advanced Selves. They were both at the Cosmic level, where we have yet to 'conquer', consciously, the planetary level which is in the Solar realms.

Buddha was in effect much higher than a Causal Self and those who reported this event actually had no idea what was truly taking place...this 'enlightenment' was far more advanced than anyone has ever experienced in this planet.

An interesting thing about past lives is that when we get to finally knowing them, it is not nearly like we would imagine it to be...if I may give you a corny example of what it is really like...

Most of our past lives we don't really want to face because we were all some mighty bad dudes in some of those past lives...but in some we were no doubt like little angels :)

And, my advice is, don't go believing any of the stuff the corner crystal gazer tells you about your past lives...because only a Causal Self can know his/her past lives because all our past history is in the Causal Consciousness 'Dimension'.

Anyway...Imagine that we go on a course, of say cooking, to learn how to cook. We spend time with all our new friends and have some great fun while learning how to cook.
Then years later we don't remember much anymore about the friends and the time we had, but we still remember how to cook because we have been doing it for so long in our nice restaurant.
This learning has instilled into our Self the talent of cooking and in our next life we come back and without much training we just seem to find cooking simple.

This is why we all show some individual talent or talents in our life...these have been learnt before in past lives and when and if we need to use them they easily come back to our memories.
This is called remembrance anew in esoterics and this same phenomena takes place when it comes to our 'spiritual' growth...we remember things which are important to our life's mission.

This is also the answer to those genius kids we often hear about...they are not geniuses...they just remember...often with great confusion...some past life's learning.

This has also taught me that not everyone who incarnates is here to get 'enlightened'... and nagging your wife to read some spiritual books to get her 'right' is actually pointless...when in fact she might be an advanced 'soul'/Self coming here just to straighten you out :)

One thing for sure is that you can never tell when the filthy guy lying in the gutter is actually an advanced Self who has chosen to move in these circles to lift others out of their rut.

Take care
Ray

[TraineeHuman]

What you call the Causal Self, Ray, seems to be very close to what I have been calling the Higher Mind throughout most of this thread. Yes, the Higher Mind is something mental even though it lies quite above the conceptual levels, and even though we therefore may easily mistake it for our pure spirit. And even though we initially experience the HM through "voiding" everything else in our experience except the pure experiencer -- as in some forms of meditation, and in all forms of meditation to some degree --, nevertheless we discover that the HM sees other consciousnesses and other life as fully "other". Because of that it's still greatly restricted, because by making itself the "sole" center of its universe it's blocking anything higher or deeper from coming through and working through it and with it.

It knows that persons, or personalities, are not the reality, but still it works with them and respects them. Meanwhile it also clearly senses that there is something greater. What it also senses is that it isn't separated -- except through its desire not to let go but to stay in control -- from a greater Master Consciousness, which, yes, is the real Self behind the curtain.

It seems to me that the "enlightenment" most or all of the others have been referring to is the rending of the veil between the HM and Superconsciousness. By the latter I mean the dropping of the need to individually save oneself, so to speak. It's a great "lightening" of one's burdens because it involves a to it amazing discovery. This is the discovery that other selves are truly also not fully separate from one's own self, and that one is actually the universe (from one unique perspective) and more. Therefore goodbye to limitation -- at one's center at least. I do agree with you also, though, that we don't somehow dissolve into Source, at any stage. We expand, we become greater, which means going in the opposite direction to dissolving and fading away.

Enlightenment means one still continues to play the role of being a (supposedly) separate individual, and each individual has something unique and extra to contribute to the whole. But behind it all there's now something universal, and the individual now fully knows this. (Retaining some form of "individual" with some "universal" trumps both "individual" and "universal" on their own.)

And I would say this is a step beyond "the Causal Self", once it's established thoroughly enough. I would prefer to call it Superconsciousness.

[TraineeHuman]

One way the Higher Mind is different from the ordinary mind is that it's extraordinarily wholistic. It sees a very big picture, and it does so instantly, in one sweep. It doesn't need to analyze things, or very little so, because it sees around corners.

The Enlightened Mind -- or make that the Enlightened or Illuminated Consciousness -- is a kind of truth magnet, so to speak. On any question, its compass always points towards the truth (without getting too specific about details), particularly with regard to the important issues, such as those of true spirituality and how to live. The Truth has a great beauty to it. The Illuminated "Mind" is also expert at psychic healing. It's very creative, and lateral, and it's even genius. However, after one has had a (genuine) enlightenment experience, it's initially there only in flashes of brilliance. The individual now needs to go through a very long process indeed of gradually integrating more and more of that brilliance, that Truth, into his or her life and psyche. In this thread I've described this process in quite different terms, as the descension of the Higher Mind into the whole body even down to below the feet (with the Illuminated "Mind" now taking over the overall identity of the Self, where before the HM did this). Maybe I didn't make it clear that I meant this descent occurs at an astral or chakra level, and not the physical. The sexual/survival chakra is particularly interesting, because when the Higher Mind penetrates to there, the subconscious gets unlocked. The practice of embracing one's dark side is therefore intensively activated at that point.

The Higher Mind receives all the Illuminated "Mind"'s knowledge and truth, but the Higher Mind's job is to manage one's life in the everyday, physical world. Because of this, the Higher Mind has to interpret or "translate" the Illuminated insights in such a way as to make them practical. In a sense the Illuminated "Mind" doesn't live in this world -- or, if you like, in its eyes the ordinary everyday world seems nothing more than illusion, a dream, a hologram. The Illuminated "Mind" can also, gradually, descend into full integration with the everyday, but only after the Higher Mind has fully done so first. So that's quite rare. Until such a point, it necessarily lives in another, higher world. Or that's my understanding, at any rate.

[Finefeather]

What you call the Causal Self, Ray, seems to be very close to what I have been calling the Higher Mind throughout most of this thread.
Yes...and I agree with your findings...it ties in exactly with the esoteric writings...but we would still need to compare these to see if they coinside.

In esoterics the mental atomic world is divided into 7 dimensions...the top one is the complete Atom level and the 6 below are the molecular levels.
Starting from the bottom...the bottom 4 molecular levels are the normal human mental levels, and the top 3 are the Causal levels...our human goal, according to esoterics, is to achieve full consciousness in the Causal level.

It is possible that this achievement may be regarded as 'enlightenment' but I am still very sceptical about the use of this title.

If I read the writings of those who claim 'enlightenment' they do not match reality as it is in these Causal levels...but that's just my opinion.

Esoteric HUMAN worlds/dimensions

1. Causal(mental) Atom
2. Causal(mental) molecule upper
3. Causal(mental) molecule lower
-----------------------------(enlightenment?)
4. Mental molecule higher
5. Mental molecule
6. Mental molecule
7. Mental molecule lower
--------------------------------------
1. Emotional(astral) Atomic level
2. Emotional(astral) upper or saint hood level
3. Emotional(astral) upper or attractive level
4. Emotional(astral) lower border
5. Emotional(astral) lower repulsive
6. Emotional(astral) lower repulsive
7. Emotional(astral) lower repulsive
--------------------------------
1. Physical real atomic level
2. Physical sub atomic
3. Physical higher etheric
4. Physical etheric (scientific atom)
5. Physical Gaseous
6. Physical Liquid
7. Physical 'Solid'
----------------------------
Each of these levels represent a state of consciousness which humans are largely centered in...then others are sort of sub levels to their life.

A largely physical person may not be very emotional or mental etc.

The thing to note is that most humans...the average...are only conscious at level 4 of the emotional world.

According to Hylozoics there are still another 46 higher atomic levels which is 46x7=322 higher sub levels.

Humans have a long way to go and there is far more that we don't know than what we do know...and many still pretend to know so much :)

Ray

[Finefeather]

One way the Higher Mind is different from the ordinary mind is that it's extraordinarily wholistic. It sees a very big picture, and it does so instantly, in one sweep. It doesn't need to analyze things, or very little so, because it sees around corners.

I like this bit..."it sees around corners"
The reason for this is causal, because causal consciousness is largely about been able to judge what the effect of our actions will be...and this can only come from long long experience in life.
So many just do things without realising the consequences to themselves... and especially to others...

Esoterics does not place heavy emphasis on isolating oneself in a world which has so much to experience...many philosophies insist on a kind of sacrifice...like the guru who locks himself up so he is not tempted.

If you are tempted in life it just means you have not yet settled that desire yet...
This is a classic method used by the so called 'illuminati' to steer someone off course...and many live lives which others find undesirable but this does not mean that they are not learning anything.

If we could see...and we all will in time...the many mistakes we have made in all our many thousands of lives, we would realise why some react differently to others during temptation and other situations.

Life is about consciousness development and you cannot develop consciousness without experiencing all facets of life.

Some philosophies, like the yoga/Indian one teach that getting into higher dimensions is what 'enlightenment' is about, but anyone can train themselves to go OB and experience all kinds of amazing mystical things...but these people often know very little about how to unite in love with humankind...that does not make them advanced or spiritual.

The best way to grow and advance spiritually is to work on your attitude to others...this automatically refines the molecular makeup of the envelopes around us...the aura tells it all.

Life is about our interaction with others because the next kingdom or level from the human kingdom is the essential kingdom...and this is about collective unity.

Ray

[Guish]

If I read the writings of those who claim 'enlightenment' they do not match reality as it is in these Causal levels...but that's just my opinion.



Who are you talking about, Ray?

I've always found OSHO strange. There was a certain darkness or arrogance in some of the things he has said over time. For example, saying people are stupid is one of the things I find strange. There's a certain deepness and calmness that comes with spirituality. Buddha had these traits and some zen masters came close as well.

[Guish]

One way the Higher Mind is different from the ordinary mind is that it's extraordinarily wholistic. It sees a very big picture, and it does so instantly, in one sweep. It doesn't need to analyze things, or very little so, because it sees around corners.

I like this bit..."it sees around corners"
The reason for this is causal, because causal consciousness is largely about been able to judge what the effect of our actions will be...and this can only come from long long experience in life.
So many just do things without realising the consequences to themselves... and especially to others...

Esoterics does not place heavy emphasis on isolating oneself in a world which has so much to experience...many philosophies insist on a kind of sacrifice...like the guru who locks himself up so he is not tempted.

If you are tempted in life it just means you have not yet settled that desire yet...
This is a classic method used by the so called 'illuminati' to steer someone off course...and many live lives which others find undesirable but this does not mean that they are not learning anything.

If we could see...and we all will in time...the many mistakes we have made in all our many thousands of lives, we would realise why some react differently to others during temptation and other situations.

Life is about consciousness development and you cannot develop consciousness without experiencing all facets of life.

Some philosophies, like the yoga/Indian one teach that getting into higher dimensions is what 'enlightenment' is about, but anyone can train themselves to go OB and experience all kinds of amazing mystical things...but these people often know very little about how to unite in love with humankind...that does not make them advanced or spiritual.

The best way to grow and advance spiritually is to work on your attitude to others...this automatically refines the molecular makeup of the envelopes around us...the aura tells it all.

Life is about our interaction with others because the next kingdom or level from the human kingdom is the essential kingdom...and this is about collective unity.

Ray


Very important points, once again. The higher mind sees around the corners because the HM thinks about the higher cause. The little self/ego has no influence on the decision making and the decision taken becomes for a bigger cause. The way I've understood it, when one acts in a state of absolute bliss, totally selfless, one goes out of the cycle of action and reaction, meaning one no longer generates good Karma. One is well beyond the notion of reward. I noticed in myself that while helping others, there's no specific happiness or excitement. It just gets done with a feeling of emptiness and calmness.

For me compassion and selflessness were just effects of experiencing the void, like I usually call it. I fail to understand how someone can have an increase in consciousness and yet have no impact in the external world. I do remember reading about this though. In Zen, there's one category of adepts who just practise to have an empty mind, there's no bigger aim. Warriors used to practise it as a transformation exercise.

[greybeard]

Im thanking Ray for taking the time to post.
I cant agree or disagree as I have no knowledge of the subject of the esoteric.
There is no way that I can debate this topic.

I have no reservations on the teachings of several "Enlightened sages" though I agree that some persons claim enlightenment when they are having an "enlightened" experience--experiences come and go.
I could list several but they are recently posted on the "Enlightenment and related matters" thread.

Rays way seems some what complex for me.

Love Chris

[Finefeather]

Thank you for the chat. I feel I need to pause here. because where I am going seems to be somewhat off topic. :)

Will meet again on another thread.
Take care all

Love
Ray

[Guish]

Ray, it was an uplifting experience talking to you. See you soon neighbor.

[TraineeHuman]

One of the keys to eventually accessing the Illumined "Mind", and also to applying it more and more in one's life in the lowly world of matter, is intuition. Intuition is a type of "seeing" that's direct. Obviously, it's very difficult to master completely. For instance, it's clear that most channeling seems to be packed full of inaccuracies and falsehoods. No doubt some of these arise because when one tries to apply anything Higher in a lower world such as the physical world we live in, it gets corrupted or inhibited simply because of the limited nature of that world. Because everything that's Higher is out of its natural "habitat" here. There's also the fact that certain hostile forces in the astral will often seek to mess with the purity of the truth being channeled, even if the clairvoyant individual does have their higher consciousness developed to the point where they access major Truth.

But I would challenge every reader, as I've already done in this thread, to become as familiar as they possibly can with Intuition, and to keep at it at least until they begin to truly appreciate that intuition is a regular type of "seeing", only a higher kind than physical seeing. Such "seeing" is ever so delightful. That fact opens up a whole new world of how to live, on an inward level.

Then there's the distortion, for instance, of our customarily pretending that the One is just a separate individual. The One actually has no division, of course, and to It all (full) division is merely apparent, or superficial. As I've mentioned before, intuition is closely tied to knowing things from the inside, from practicing being at one with them in our consciousness. Intuition therefore involves consciously adopting a type of knowing that's much closer to how the One knows things. And what It knows is what the world really is.

[Guish]

One of the keys to eventually accessing the Illumined "Mind", and also to applying it more and more in one's life in the lowly world of matter, is intuition. Intuition is a type of "seeing" that's direct. Obviously, it's very difficult to master completely. For instance, it's clear that most channeling seems to be packed full of inaccuracies and falsehoods. No doubt some of these arise because when one tries to apply anything Higher in a lower world such as the physical world we live in, it gets corrupted or inhibited simply because of the limited nature of that world. Because everything that's Higher is out of its natural "habitat" here. There's also the fact that certain hostile forces in the astral will often seek to mess with the purity of the truth being channeled, even if the clairvoyant individual does have their higher consciousness developed to the point where they access major Truth.

But I would challenge every reader, as I've already done in this thread, to become as familiar as they possibly can with Intuition, and to keep at it at least until they begin to truly appreciate that intuition is a regular type of "seeing", only a higher kind than physical seeing. Such "seeing" is ever so delightful. That fact opens up a whole new world of how to live, on an inward level.

Then there's the distortion, for instance, of our customarily pretending that the One is just a separate individual. The One actually has no division, of course, and to It all (full) division is merely apparent, or superficial. As I've mentioned before, intuition is closely tied to knowing things from the inside, from practicing being at one with them in our consciousness. Intuition therefore involves consciously adopting a type of knowing that's much closer to how the One knows things. And what It knows is what the world really is.

Very true, TH. Calming the mind unlocks the hidden potential of our being. It's very tiring dealing with emotions and moods. Everything pushes us towards self inquiry and eventually spirituality unless we accept the suffering as a part of life.

[Joe Akulis]

"Life is about our interaction with others because the next kingdom or level from the human kingdom is the essential kingdom...and this is about collective unity."

Unity has been on my mind a lot. But not like the way it gets discussed here in this thread. Most of the time on threads like this, unity is a realization that people come to the higher they progress in their level of experience. You know, the "One" stuff. "It's all one." "We are all one." "You're only hurting yourself because we are all one." "You become one with everything."

The type of unity that has been on my mind a lot lately might be called "unity in reverse" if you compare it to the other kind of unity by revelation. Instead of realizing, or knowing that we are all one, I'm really interested in the idea that as we progress, we are going to be drawn toward an increasing level of unity with each other.

I've read some cool stories of people in the astral realms who learn how to "merge" themselves. It's like a total sharing of each other. You learn everything that person knows and they do the same with you. Sorta like you both become each other in one body.

I think as we get closer to becoming what we can be, and start tapping some of these cool abilities, like telepathy, we are going to start feeling that pull towards each other more and more. At first there will only be a very select few that we would feel comfortable doing something like this with, and it's quite possible that they will all be part of the soul group that comprises our Higher Mind to begin with, but eventually I think that will continue to build until, who knows, maybe the majority of the people on planet Earth right now will decide to combine into one whole. This whole possibility blows me away, but for some reason, right now, I love thinking about it.

Anyone else know what I mean?

[AwakeInADream]

Hi all :) I've been away, but it strikes me just how dreamlike different levels of physicality can seem. I've been on a journey, much like the shamans journey, but this one was in the mundane and earthly structure of the society that first gripped me. I lost my way, but kept myself within it. leaving my body seemed 'proof enough' back then, so I ventured back into the world. I was covered in soil. This subjective realm that most people agree upon, of hard cement and coke cans, wavers for me now. I want again to meet my true friend. The man in white. But he leaves me to decide. I must make a choice.

I'm so glad to see your thread still running TraineeHuman :) I missed you! :)

[TraineeHuman]

Happiness -- or freedom from unhappiness -- actually comes from and through the Higher Mind, the soul -- though even higher parts of ourselves, namely the Superconsciousness or even the Divine consciousness, will certainly intensify happiness, make it even stronger, whenever we enter them strongly enough.

On the other hand, our social conditioning insists that happiness consists of a great marriage or partnership, great family and children, great friends, a great career, very good health, great hobbies, and maybe a great home and great possessions or money or free time. Unfortunately the truth is, these do not in themselves bring freedom from unhappiness. It's impossible for them ever to do so. Once one has achieved such freedom, these will certainly enrich the happiness that's there, and should certainly be cultivated. But these are largely the things that our biological self, our body-consciousness, yearns for. Unfortunately it doesn't have the capacity to ever be fully satisfied, because it's a less evolved consciousness than our soul.

That leaves questions such as what to do with attachment, particularly in romantic or family relationships. The truth is, attachment slowly destroys (genuine) love. However, our biological self easily develops attachment, particularly when our soul feels love for another person. This attachment develops because the ego can control the biological self but it has no control over our Higher Mind. Attachment to one's mother is something that the body-consciousness needs for the first four years or so of life. But the ego then seeks to in effect highjack attachment, because the ego would love to know genuine love but attachment is the closest imitation it can get.

Should we then be ruthless and cut off all attachments whenever we notice any? Obviously not. No-one lives that way, except maybe some yogis or monks or nuns. How, then, do we stop attachment from destroying the genuine love that's present to some degree at least at the beginning of any important romantic relationship? I'm interested in others' thoughts and experiences. I'll share mine in another post soon.

One thing to clarify now, though, is that in addition to the "path" of meditation there is the "path" of love. In our society everyone follows that path to some degree, and most women do so extensively for much of their lives. The ultimate on that journey is to learn to freely access Love per se, the pure, delicious love of existence itself. That is essentially the same thing as what I have been calling the bliss that comes with having the Higher Mind fully present. That's what bliss feels like -- like ecstatic love. Christians say that "God is love" (and imply that love is God). Well, to the body-consciousness the Higher Mind, the soul, is "God". Even though all the Divine worlds are at a considerably higher level.

[Guish]

Thanks TH. Body consciousness pollutes relationships in many ways. One creates expectations which are not usually met and a sense of dissatisfaction is felt. In simple terms, one can never be happy with something impermanent. The only thing permanent is the soul. Concerning love, you can just give without expecting in return and the love never fades as the soul is unchanged. When I met my wife, I wasn't expecting anything at the time. Things just clicked. However, I could have married someone else as all people are beautiful. But, I know that people more entangled in the materialistic world will not be attracted by someone like me. Hence, everyone has the potential to be a Buddha or a Ravana. You choose what you want to be.

[TraineeHuman]

I agree with you, Guish, that the most workable answer to the question of how to deal with attachment seems to be that we need to keep transcending it, and thereby hopefully we'll continue to remain free of its clutches.

In practice this would amount to our continually finding love -- or something uplifting -- afresh in the moment, if we can. Or often enough to outweigh the momentum of the attachment, which otherwise seems to grow stronger and stronger over time.

In some spiritual traditions there's a clearly identified type of love that goes beyond any attachment. This is what's often called the love of God (/etc). The idea is that God is hugely lovable, if we can but begin to see God clearly. Plus, that the love of God is a sublime thing, dormant or half-felt in the best of the human love we experience. Maybe in all the "human" love we experience, and in friendship. And that such love takes us beyond, certainly beyond the clutches of attachment.

Ultimately, and ideally, we need to release a certain higher part of us from both the heart and the (ordinary) mind, to set it free. It's been my experience and my continued understanding that there's a beauty there which among other things is indeed a pure love and a bliss and a timelessness and other such things all rolled into one. We dream of such a thing because not only do we sense it's there, but without it the reality we know would fall apart and ultimately could not exist. There's some sense in which without the dream of perfection the imperfect world we know couldn't even exist. (We wouldn't even know what imperfection was, without a certain kind of perfection existing first.) Accuse me of being an idealist if you like. But that type of perfection's very separation from the imperfect world of matter forces the materialistic reality to ultimately submit to something that's a direct negation of its own petty ideals, its sordid cares and its egoistic self-content.

The traditional way to cultivate the love of God was to take all the areas of one's life in which emotion enters strongly and "transfer" that emotion to the Divine. Thus in many traditions meditation was viewed solely as a way to further or intensify the Divine relationship. Notice also, though, that this connects all the love in one's life with the love of the Divine, including, for example, the love of Nature. And that cuts both ways. Because eventually one learns how to start to continually transfer the emotion one feels towards the Divine (the bliss one feels in meditation) to one's everyday life work tasks and relationships.

[Guish]

Th, are there really two worlds like you say? The perfect and the imperfect one? The inner work one does directly affects the outer world. The more selfless I become, the more people open up. The more I don't ask, the more I get. The more I lose identity, the more people give me names. I have seen the most aggressive people become humble when I approached them. On the other hand, we are all reflections of the divine. Love for God would mean love for oneself? A love without ego. Treating one's body like a temple , cleaning and praying in it. If we look for something, the universe will give it. Does that make it true? My approach has been silent meditation where I do not expect or search for anything. Excuse me if I have been misleading.

[TraineeHuman]

I suppose the primary examples of attachment that I had in mind, Guish, are romantic relationships and also parent-child relationships. To take parent-child relationships first, by the time a young person has reached sixteen or thereabouts, they're likely to bear significant resentment towards their parents, which often intensifies until maybe their mid-thirties. As I see it, what will be going on is that at a deep layer, including a soul layer and higher astral and mental layers, the youngish person normally has pure love for their parents. But they may not be conscious of this at all, because of the overlay of what I consider would be 100% attachment of some kind. Had the young person been brought up to challenge attachment every time it reared its head and dissolve it on the spot with awareness, the attachment could never have taken sway. Then again, it's rare for a parent to possess a sufficiently high energy level to cope even with the normal energy level of a child or adolescent. For many though not all parents, the insistence on some set routine of behavior -- which is some kind of attachment -- usually seems to be a convenient way to restrain and repress them.

The basic mechanism by which attachments seem to form is that of repetition of one thought over and over. (Over the years I've often been amazed to see what even some very experienced meditators regarded as "discipline" in their practice , when to me it was patently clear this was just some kind of attachment.) It seems to me, though, that one could avoid attachment from forming if one used those very thoughts rather like a mantra. In that case one would make use of the thought as a stepping stone to being aware of something higher -- rather like using "Peace" as a mantra that's also a reminder that one wants to enter into or merge with or feel peace. What I had in mind here was that at the beginning of any romantic relationship or marriage there's normally a honeymoon period of at least several months. At that stage, if you are in such a relationship, your ego wants to keep thinking over and over of the person you love, but that's OK because to you most of that person is unknown at this stage, and therefore the ego can't grab hold of them and set them in stone.

The trap comes when we allow attachment to replace love, and we try to run the relationship via attachment. We adopt deceptive names for our attachment: "my husband", "my wife", "my child", "my partner/boyfriend/girlfriend", "being in love", among others. The exact same names, though, could also be used as expressions of real love. But some terms, such as "heartbreak", for instance, always refer to attachment alone.

The soul, the Higher Mind, exists at the formless levels of reality, and so one solution to the problem of attachment is to retain some awareness of the other as they exist at a soul level. Unfortunately, though, not many individuals can do that, except that I suspect many mothers somehow manage to do it despite themselves. But, for instance, I seem to find it necessary to occasionally apologize for the weirdness of my having communicated with some friends who are psychic at, say, an upper astral level -- which is still well below the soul level.

Of course, if the individual knows how to regularly find bliss -- which is the same feeling as true love --, they can use that to pull themselves out of the trap, as we've already been saying, Guish.

And to reply to your question, Guish, yes, there are "perfect" worlds -- anything that's at the levels of Source or a little below that, where there are worlds of pure Truth. And if by "perfect" you mean infinite or potentially infinite, then that fits with even the lowest of the formless worlds.

With regard to your question of whether love of God means love of oneself, Guish, I would say "self" or "oneself" is as ambiguous a term as one can possibly get. But I would also say that love of oneself is very very very important, even in the sense of one's ego as one's "self". And that love of God means love of the All, which does coincide with love of oneself provided one is within (one of the levels of) Source at the time.

[Guish]

I suppose the primary examples of attachment that I had in mind, Guish, are romantic relationships and also parent-child relationships. To take parent-child relationships first, by the time a young person has reached sixteen or thereabouts, they're likely to bear significant resentment towards their parents, which often intensifies until maybe their mid-thirties. As I see it, what will be going on is that at a deep layer, including a soul layer and higher astral and mental layers, the youngish person normally has pure love for their parents. But they may not be conscious of this at all, because of the overlay of what I consider would be 100% attachment of some kind. Had the young person been brought up to challenge attachment every time it reared its head and dissolve it on the spot with awareness, the attachment could never have taken sway. Then again, it's rare for a parent to possess a sufficiently high energy level to cope even with the normal energy level of a child or adolescent. For many though not all parents, the insistence on some set routine of behavior -- which is some kind of attachment -- usually seems to be a convenient way to restrain and repress them.

The basic mechanism by which attachments seem to form is that of repetition of one thought over and over. (Over the years I've often been amazed to see what even some very experienced meditators regarded as "discipline" in their practice , when to me it was patently clear this was just some kind of attachment.) It seems to me, though, that one could avoid attachment from forming if one used those very thoughts rather like a mantra. In that case one would make use of the thought as a stepping stone to being aware of something higher -- rather like using "Peace" as a mantra that's also a reminder that one wants to enter into or merge with or feel peace. What I had in mind here was that at the beginning of any romantic relationship or marriage there's normally a honeymoon period of at least several months. At that stage, if you are in such a relationship, your ego wants to keep thinking over and over of the person you love, but that's OK because to you most of that person is unknown at this stage, and therefore the ego can't grab hold of them and set them in stone.

The trap comes when we allow attachment to replace love, and we try to run the relationship via attachment. We adopt deceptive names for our attachment: "my husband", "my wife", "my child", "my partner/boyfriend/girlfriend", "being in love", among others. The exact same names, though, could also be used as expressions of real love. But some terms, such as "heartbreak", for instance, always refer to attachment alone.

The soul, the Higher Mind, exists at the formless levels of reality, and so one solution to the problem of attachment is to retain some awareness of the other as they exist at a soul level. Unfortunately, though, not many individuals can do that, except that I suspect many mothers somehow manage to do it despite themselves. But, for instance, I seem to find it necessary to occasionally apologize for the weirdness of my having communicated with some friends who are psychic at, say, an upper astral level -- which is still well below the soul level.

Of course, if the individual knows how to regularly find bliss -- which is the same feeling as true love --, they can use that to pull themselves out of the trap, as we've already been saying, Guish.

And to reply to your question, Guish, yes, there are "perfect" worlds -- anything that's at the levels of Source or a little below that, where there are worlds of pure Truth. And if by "perfect" you mean infinite or potentially infinite, then that fits with even the lowest of the formless worlds.

With regard to your question of whether love of God means love of oneself, Guish, I would say "self" or "oneself" is as ambiguous a term as one can possibly get. But I would also say that love of oneself is very very very important, even in the sense of one's ego as one's "self". And that love of God means love of the All, which does coincide with love of oneself provided one is within (one of the levels of) Source at the time.

Imagine a world without attachment. Unfortunately, no attachment is often referred as being cold. One should give love and set free. I hardly find something that can make me jump off my seat. I get excited when I allow myself to be as such and I play a role. For example, there's no one more competitive than me when my house competes at the school. As a housemaster, I display a pride and fierce determination. However, once the day ends, I let the event go. Regarding love, I still have expectations at times and get sad when they are not met. However, I'm not affected badly as I know it's just the ego playing its trick again. I play a certain game to entertain people but deep inside, it doesn't matter. But what matters? I found immense bliss by selfless actions and renunciation as I mentioned earlier in your thread.

A colleague of mine said that she criticizes herself a lot. Now, she wakes up and tells herself "I love you" and things are improving. She asked me what I do to attract positivity. I said nothing. Anything from self is pure. I don't feel anything most of the times but I'm filled with bliss when I do something for a higher cause. Not sure if this is called the divine love for everything.

[TraineeHuman]

Imagine a world without attachment. Unfortunately, no attachment is often referred as being cold. One should give love and set free.

I don't agree that full nonattachment is cold. To quote C.S. Lewis: "Love detaches, and true love detaches totally."

Still, if we ever managed to totally, 100% let go of all attachment, we'd leave the physical world instantly. That's so because the physical world is partly made out of attachment, to a certain degree. So, it's all a matter of degree, it's all relative -- how to reduce the intensity, the pulling power, of attachment sensibly.

Yes, it's true all attachment is connected with the ego in a certain way. But we never totally transcend the ego. The trouble is, the (ordinary) mind takes the language we use and jumps to extremes.

I've often come across earnest spiritually oriented people who evidently believe that one should never enjoy a good, wholesome meal too much, for instance, because they believe that would be to indulge in attachment to food and the sense of taste. I believe that's nonsense, and a good example of the mind's jumping to extremes. I guess it's true, though, that overeating or eating junk would count as types of attachment to be avoided if possible. Some people (particularly those over 40) have thyroid issues, however, which may lead them to often overeat a little because the thyroid is sending the wrong signals to the brain, signals the brain can't resist, perhaps.


I hardly find something that can make me jump off my seat. I get excited when I allow myself to be as such and I play a role. For example, there's no one more competitive than me when my house competes at the school. As a housemaster, I display a pride and fierce determination. However, once the day ends, I let the event go.

Because total nonattachment is impossible in this physical world, it follows that cheering for a sporting team or even feeling competitive in a constructive way may be quite kosher, may I suggest. Certainly, excitement does automatically create more attachment, unless we learn how to always temper the degree of our excitement with an inner calmness and "witness position" as well. Even while one is cheering for one's team, there should ideally be, for example, a genuine appreciation of the good efforts of the opposing team, at least. We do have the social ideal of good sportsmanship, however poorly it may sometimes be adhered to these days.

If you think about it, everyone is paid to be "biassed" and "attached" in favor of the organisation or company or whatever that they work for, not to mention in favor of their family and their friends. But people don't disclose company secrets to competitors on the basis that otherwise they'd be showing a bias in favor of their own company!


Regarding love, I still have expectations at times and get sad when they are not met. However, I'm not affected badly as I know it's just the ego playing its trick again. I play a certain game to entertain people but deep inside, it doesn't matter. But what matters? I found immense bliss by selfless actions and renunciation as I mentioned earlier in your thread.

The end we should be working towards is one where, eventually, we manage to continually bring some bliss in somewhere in every corner of our lives. That tends to burn away the strength of our attachments, one tiny bit at a time. Like slowly reclaiming land from the sea.


A colleague of mine said that she criticizes herself a lot. Now, she wakes up and tells herself "I love you" and things are improving. She asked me what I do to attract positivity. I said nothing. Anything from self is pure. I don't feel anything most of the times but I'm filled with bliss when I do something for a higher cause. Not sure if this is called the divine love for everything.

Regarding bringing in positivity, personally I shamelessly use meditation for ten minutes each morning to "charge myself up" with positive energy. Meditation is the truest way of doing "nothing", because it involves resting in just yourself. I did have a teacher about twelve years ago who teased me by implicitly telling me that my need to stay positive through the daily ten minutes wasn't the ultimate, and that there was a superior way to live that involved transcending the need for meditation entirely. (Barry Long also told me the same thing, years before that.) I still haven't found that superior way.

[Guish]

Still, if we ever managed to totally, 100% let go of all attachment, we'd leave the physical world instantly.


I went through a phase of strong detachment once where I didn't feel the need for even food. There was a feeling that I'd dissapear if I stayed like this. I would consume very little food. I remember forcing myself to eat food to keep a routine.






I've often come across earnest spiritually oriented people who evidently believe that one should never enjoy a good, wholesome meal too much, for instance, because they believe that would be to indulge in attachment to food and the sense of taste. I believe that's nonsense, and a good example of the mind's jumping to extremes.


Please note that I highlighted the word "should". Is there any should in spirituality? In my experience, actions just flow when one operates from the self. In non-duality, there's no should or should not.






The end we should be working towards is one where, eventually, we manage to continually bring some bliss in somewhere in every corner of our lives. That tends to burn away the strength of our attachments, one tiny bit at a time. Like slowly reclaiming land from the sea.



Exactly. That's why I don't understand people who want to go away and just meditate. Inner bliss is multiplied with the right actions and right thoughts.




ssly use meditation for ten minutes each morning to "charge myself up" with positive energy. Meditation is the truest way of doing "nothing", because it involves resting in just yourself. I did have a teacher about twelve years ago who teased me by implicitly telling me that my need to stay positive through the daily ten minutes wasn't the ultimate, and that there was a superior way to live that involved transcending the need for meditation entirely. (Barry Long also told me the same thing, years before that.) I still haven't found that superior way.

I remember saying in Chris' thread that one should get detached even to the idea of detachment. Nevertheless, the soul loves to meditate as Yogananda used to say. It's very important to dilute the mental noise.

[TraineeHuman]

Another area of strong attachment is the individual's great attachment to their own liberation, their own salvation or eventual hoped-for enlightenment. Supposedly, the strength of this attachment is what gives us the whole impetus to break free. Supposedly -- according to the ego, that is.

It then sounds paradoxical to read enlightened beings telling how that whole struggle was an illusion from start to finish. That we have to simply let it go. And that there never was a full dichotomy or separation between oneself and the world, not to mention between oneself and the entire Multiverse including Source and everything else. Yes, there's simply no such thing as a world "out there". Never was. It sounds like sleight of hand, like nothing, to shift to that other view. And yet it could not but seem subtle, because the greatest power, on a spiritual or metaphysical level, always involves great subtlety. Blink your eye and you'll miss it altogether. Or as a Zen poem puts it, miss it by a hair's breadth and you'll have the biggest gap, the greatest chasm, you ever saw.

[TraineeHuman]

Another strange attachment is the ego's --and seemingly our own -- great attachment to (many forms of) unhappiness, not to mention the attachment to clinging to polarities and divisions.

That very clinging to a divided way of being is precisely what keeps us out of paradise. It's precisely what keeps us from removing the causes of our unhappiness. Because Source loves us, Source says: "Very well, Because I love you, I will support your perverse pleasure in making yourself unhappy. I will sanction your perverse will and through your hand I will breathe the breath of life, so to speak, into that piece of the undivine, and thereby support its continuing to exist. (I'm pretty cool that way.)"

[Guish]

Another area of strong attachment is the individual's great attachment to their own liberation, their own salvation or eventual hoped-for enlightenment. Supposedly, the strength of this attachment is what gives us the whole impetus to break free. Supposedly -- according to the ego, that is.



Very true. Anyone can be weakened and get back to human characteristics. I remember a story of Shiva whereby Sati was burnt and he lost complete control of himself and could have destroyed the entire universe. I was explaining to someone the other day that once your level of consciousness is increased, one automatically can influence people in the surroundings. This becomes a trap because the ego is still strong even if the consciousness has increased. There are saints in India who used to give curses to people who disturbed their meditation or they were very defensive about their way of living. Now, meditation is supposed to bring that still mind (higher mind) from which compassion, calmness and divinity occur on their own. I know people who do healing on others and they are still very emotional in this world or have material desires. Let me quote Yogananda again. " So long as you let the desires and weaknesses of the physical body control your thoughts and actions, you will not find him". Every time I type something like this, there is a deep calmness that settles inside and the burning sensation comes back.

Always a pleasure talking to you, TH.

Geerish.

[TraineeHuman]

The type of unity that has been on my mind a lot lately might be called "unity in reverse" if you compare it to the other kind of unity by revelation. Instead of realizing, or knowing that we are all one, I'm really interested in the idea that as we progress, we are going to be drawn toward an increasing level of unity with each other.

I've read some cool stories of people in the astral realms who learn how to "merge" themselves. It's like a total sharing of each other. You learn everything that person knows and they do the same with you. Sorta like you both become each other in one body.

I think as we get closer to becoming what we can be, and start tapping some of these cool abilities, like telepathy, we are going to start feeling that pull towards each other more and more. At first there will only be a very select few that we would feel comfortable doing something like this with, and it's quite possible that they will all be part of the soul group that comprises our Higher Mind to begin with, but eventually I think that will continue to build until, who knows, maybe the majority of the people on planet Earth right now will decide to combine into one whole. This whole possibility blows me away, but for some reason, right now, I love thinking about it.

Anyone else know what I mean?

I guess we forget that the whole distinction between one and many, and the One and the many (including infinitely many), only makes sense if both are real. If all that ultimately existed was the One -- Source, without any particular forms --, then Source would be extraordinarily unexpressive, and even rather weak, I would have to say, and awfully bland, and would probably prefer to die of boredom -- if Source ever could get bored, which it can't. For how does Source demonstrate its strength if not in its ability not to lose itself despite all its outpourings and despite the seemingly endless contradictions and variations (ultimately of Source itself) that do exist? Source does indeed take on many, many forms (of utter bliss and peace and Truth), in addition to possessing limitless being and being undefinable as well.

Source is too great to be in any way defeated by its own boundlessness.

We also generally ignore the fact altogether that "form" only makes sense because "space" is really just a backhanded variety of form. Think about it. What defines any form? Its boundaries. What's a boundary? It's something that exists because there's some space that causes interruption, or discontinuity, to the form.

And Joe, in reply to your post I'd like to point out that right throughout the length of this thread I have insisted, in defiance of the entire tradition of Vedanta and the claims of all the Indian gurus of the last three centuries (except J. Krishnamurti, probably), that Oneness doesn't involve giving up our individuality in its essential sense, not ever and even not in the eternity beyond time; that, rather, the Universe needs the enrichment of the unique contribution and individual variation each one of us adds to the enrichment of All, even just by our individually existing.

[Guish]

The source cannot be defined. While operating from the source or higher mind, bliss and peace are felt in all activities. There are many ways of expressing calmness and peace. Are we really different from each other if we are expressing the same thing in different ways?

[TraineeHuman]

The source cannot be defined. While operating from the source or higher mind, bliss and peace are felt in all activities. There are many ways of expressing calmness and peace. Are we really different from each other if we are expressing the same thing in different ways?

Well, Source is very far indeed from being the same thing as what I've been calling the Higher Mind, or the soul, throughout this thread. For instance, for one thing, Source contains absolutely everything inside it, including all possible worlds. If I understand your argument correctly, it sounds to me like you want to imply that they're actually the same.

It's true that the Higher Mind is the highest level at which it's possible to act totally as if one's individuality is fully independent of that of any other being. But what I'm claiming is that some individuality, some important and very useful unique contribution, remains throughout all the higher levels. Source needs such individuality as its eyes and ears, so to speak.

[Guish]

Buddha, Ramakrishna and Jesus were all different but eventually the same.

[TraineeHuman]

Another name for Source is the Tao.

According to a book by contemporary Dr. and Master Zhi Gang Sha, Tao is:

The Way [of the Universe, of absolutely all there is and of all there possibly could be]

The source and creator of all things

" Emptiness" and "nothingness" -- which for a Westerner might perhaps preferably be described as "everythingness"

All universal principles and laws

Something that cannot be explained (or defined) in words or comprehended by thought

Although we can't exactly explain it, we can experience it ever so vividly, and share our overwhelming experiences of it or of its effects more and more, and thereby confirm that it's real.

Lao Tzu connected the experience of it to one's ultimately attaining to immortality. Lao Tzu was quite explicit in saying such things as that if we can somehow retrace all the connections and all the relationships between the Tao and our own current level of existence, then we can -- for lack of a better metaphor from me -- follow the trail of breadcrumbs (which Lao Tzu's Taoism claimed to describe or at least point the way to) all the way back to Source, the highest level of existence or being, where we will indeed become permanently immortal, if we so wish.

[TraineeHuman]

Here is some more material about forgiveness, this time from Jack Kornfield. Earlier in the thread I've described forgiveness as one of the sure paths into becoming palpably aware of one's Higher Mind and how it sees things, even if one doesn't have the third eye fully open as yet (and therefore doesn't directly see higher planes as yet, or knowingly communicate on them).


here is a little bit about the architecture of forgiveness. First, forgiveness does not mean that we condone what happened in the past. It’s not forgive and forget. In fact, forgiveness might also include quite understandably the resolve to protect yourself and never let this happen again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VLXYmUwaLA


Forgiveness doesn’t mean that you have to speak or relate to a person who betrayed you, necessarily. It’s not about them. It doesn’t condone their behavior—it can stand up for justice and say “no more.”

And forgiveness is not sentimental, or quick. You can’t paper things over and smile and say, “I forgive.” It is a deep process of the heart. And in the process, you need to honor the betrayal of yourself or others—the grief, the anger, the hurt, the fear. It can take a long time. Sometimes when you do a forgiveness practice, you realize that you’re never going to forgive that person. And never takes a while.

Forgiveness is also not for anybody else. There’s a story of two ex-prisoners of war. One says to the other, “Have you forgiven your captors yet?” And the second says “No, never.” And the first one then says “Well, they still have you in prison, don’t they?”

Similarly, I remember sitting with the Dalai Lama and some Tibetan nuns who had survived years of imprisonment and torture. We were part of a meeting that I was running of ex-prisoners from all across the United States who’d been using meditation, contemplative practices, mindfulness, compassion, and so forth to change their lives.

With us were guys who had just been released after 25 years in Texas state prison or 18 years in Ohio in a maximum security prison. And they were sitting with the Dali Lama and these little nuns who were imprisoned during their teenagers years for saying their prayers out loud.

The nuns were asked, “Were you ever afraid?” And they answered, “Yes, we were terribly afraid. And what we were afraid of was that we would end up hating our guards—that we would lose our compassion. That is the thing we most feared.”

And they sat there, these sweet young nuns, and I remember this one guy who had been in prison for 18 years in Ohio saying, “I’ve seen some brave folks in my day, and I ain’t seen anything like you young ladies.”

The principles of forgiveness

One of the interesting things about forgiveness is that you find it in all different traditions. There are African indigenous practices of forgiveness. There is of course the Christian teachings of turning the other cheek and Jesus’ teachings of forgiveness. There is the mercy of Allah in Islam.

What’s unique about Buddhism—because Buddhism is more a science of mind than a religion, although it functions as a religion for some people—is that it offers practices in trainings. It doesn’t say just “turn the other cheek” or “remember the mercy of Allah,” but it offers a thousand different trainings: trainings in mindfulness, in compassion, in forgiveness, in lovingkindness, in compassion for those who are different than you, and so on.

In this way, Buddhist psychology shows an ancient understanding of “neuroplasticity,” the idea that our neurosystem is always changing, even to the very end of life. So many of the modern neuroscience studies that researchers like Richard Davidson are doing, using fMRI machines and the like, validate this idea of neuroplasticity. Indeed, in Buddhism, the teaching in three words is: “Not Always So.” Things are always changing.

The Buddha was a list maker: the Eightfold Path, the Seven Factors of Enlightenment, the Four Nobel Truths. Similarly, here are 12 principles connected with the process of forgiveness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-RBTd23RN0

One: Understand what forgiveness is and what it is not. As I mentioned earlier, it’s not condoning, it’s not a papering over, it’s not for the other person, it’s not sentimental.

Two: Sense the suffering in yourself, of still holding onto this lack of forgiveness for yourself or for another. Start to feel that it’s not compassionate; that you have this great suffering that’s not in your own best interest. So you actually sense the weight of not forgiving.

Three: Reflect on the benefits of a loving heart. [Buddhist texts say]: Your dreams become sweeter, you waken more easily, men and women will love you, angels and devils will love you. If you lose things they will be returned. People will welcome you everywhere when you are forgiving and loving. Your thoughts become pleasant. Animals will sense this and love you. Elephants will bow as you go by—try it at the zoo!

Four: Discover that it is not necessary to be loyal to your suffering. This is a big one. W are so loyal to our suffering, focusing on the trauma and the betrayal of “what happened to me.” OK, it happened. It was horrible. But is that what defines you? “Live in joy” says the Buddha. Look at the Dali Lama, who bears the weight of the oppression in Tibet and the loss of his culture, and yet he’s also a very happy and joyful person. He says, ‘They have taken so much. They have destroyed temples, burned our texts, disrobed our monks and nuns, limited our culture and destroyed it in so many ways. Why should I also let them take my joy and peace of mind?’

Five: Understand that forgiveness is a process. There’s a story of a man who wrote to the IRS, “I haven’t been able to sleep knowing that I cheated on my taxes. Since I failed to fully disclose my earnings last year on my return, I’ve enclosed a bank check for $2,000 dollars. If I still can’t sleep, I’ll send the rest.” It’s a training, it’s a process, layer by layer—that is how the body and the psyche work.

Six: Set your intention. There is a whole complex and profound teaching in Buddhist psychology about the power of both short-term and long-term intention. When you set your intention, it sets the compass of your heart and your psyche. By having that intention, you make obstacles become surmountable because you know where you are going. whether it is in business, a relationship, a love affair, a creative activity, or in the work of the heart. Setting your intention is really important and powerful.

Seven: Learn the inner and outer forms of forgiveness. There are meditation practices for the inner forms, but for the outer forms, there are also certain kinds of confessions and making amends.

Eight: Start the easiest way, with whatever opens your heart. Maybe it’s your dog and maybe it’s the Dali Lama and maybe it’s your child which is the thing or person that you most love and can forgive. Then you bring in someone who is a little more difficult to forgive. Only when the heart is all the way open do you take on something difficult.

Nine: Be willing to grieve. And grief, as Elizabeth Kubler-Ross has spelled out, consists of bargaining, loss, fear, and anger. You have to be willing to go through this process in some honorable way, as I’m sure Nelson Mandela did. Indeed, he has described how [before he could forgive his captors] he was outraged and angry and hurt and all the things that anyone would feel. So be willing to grieve, and then to let go.

Ten: Forgiveness includes all the dimensions of our life. Forgiveness is work of the body. It’s work of the emotions. It’s work of the mind. And it’s interpersonal work done through our relationships.

Eleven: Forgiveness involves a shift of identity. There is in us an undying capacity for love and freedom that is untouched by what happens to you. To come back to this true nature is the work of forgiveness.

Twelve: Forgiveness involves perspective. We are in this drama in life that is so much bigger than our ‘little stories.’ When we can open this perspective, we see it is not just your hurt, but the hurt of humanity. Everyone who loves is hurt in some way. Everyone who enters the marketplace gets betrayed. The loss is not just your pain, it is the pain of being alive. Then you feel connected to everyone in this vastness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbHKCy4f6Dk

[Guish]

Forgiveness is one of the tests I had to deal with too. When I was a younger teacher, there was one person who back stabbed me and tried to get me into trouble. A few months ago, the same person asked for my spiritual guidance and I gave it with all my heart. There's another person who made my life a hell sometime ago. I'm now the manager of that person and I saved her from trouble many times and offered support numerous times. I realised that nothing can really harm your true nature.

[Guish]

https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/nNy6OVnmID3g2_sR4MBuDQ--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9NTEyO3E9OTU7dz01MTI-/http://rlv.zcache.com/buddha_quote_about_forgiveness_and_forgiving_mousepad-rdcaa565410834cba8ab5fd44da057477_x74vi_8byvr_512.jpg

People hurt each other out of ignorance. Buddha said anyone had the potential to become a Buddha. When he was a prince, he had an aunty, Mangala who did everything to get buddha out of the way because she wanted her son to become prince. Siddharth, before he became buddha left the throne and went on the path of enlightenment. When he came back to the palace after enlightenment, he thanked his Aunt and honored her because she showed him what pain was, what anger was and what evil was and this made him inquire about the end of duality. Please note that Buddha wasn't sarcastic here. He genuinely felt compassion for every human being. He even showed compassion towards a soldier who came to kill him under the order of his cousin who wanted him dead.

[TraineeHuman]

While we're on forgiveness, let's consider the relationship between forgiveness and sovereignty. Earlier in the thread I suggested that sovereignty was one of the chief qualities that being in touch with one's Higher Mind or soul brings. (Another such quality, which can involve developing oneself in a different but not inconsistent direction, is bliss or, if you like, Love. A third quality, and direction, is that of understanding and insight -- which I believe is more basic and needs to be developed, to a certain degree, before one can even bring the HM down and activate it in one's life at all. I would say the fourth HM quality is inner peace, which comes more and more with all three of the above -- more and more, that is, if one considers that one only moves higher by conquering -- staying peaceful in -- more and more hells.)

Lack of self-forgiveness seems to be almost the same thing as a lack of sovereignty. But let me suggest that the shadow side of a lack of self-forgiveness is a lack of the ability to forgive.

[Guish]

more and more, that is, if one considers that one only moves higher by conquering -- staying peaceful in -- more and more hells.)



During the civil wars in feudal Japan, an invading army would quickly sweep into a town and take control. In one particular village, everyone fled just before the army arrived - everyone except the Zen master.

Curious about this old fellow, the general went to the temple to see for himself what kind of man this master was. When he wasn't treated with the deference and submissiveness to which he was accustomed, the general burst into anger.
"You fool," he shouted as he reached for his sword, "don't you realize you are standing before a man who could run you through without blinking an eye!"

But despite the threat, the master seemed unmoved.
"And do you realize," the master replied calmly, "that you are standing before a man who can be run through without blinking an eye?"

[TraineeHuman]

That Zen Master had evidently developed his capacity for self-forgiveness to the point where he could forgive himself for allowing his body to be killed if that was what was necessary to make a stand against violence. But the topic of forgiveness, and particularly self-forgiveness, is very broad and central, I suggest.

Self-forgiveness, including "repentance", plus forgiveness in general, i.e. being forgiven as well as forgiving, is in effect the second and final stage of all healing or psychotherapy. Most unfortunately, it's often played down or even left out altogether. Often it's called "closure".

I first noticed this was the case from my (occasional) experiences as a psychic healer. Basically, from my point of view the way psychic healing works is it initially involves surrender to Source, or to as close to that (or to beyond "I") as you can get at the time. In such a state, the less you "do" anything, the better, as long as you let go of your own personality and attachment to your individuality. Your attention needs to instead be on the client's individuality, which temporarily seems as if it's your own. What I then do is allow the energy or light to flow -- initially, in my experience, it wants to fill up all the holes or dark spots in the client's energy field. That, by the way, can already be considered an energetic forgiveness of the client's failings. Then the energy becomes so subtle it may seem not to be flowing at any physical level. At that point I get a flow of pictures and symbols (which the client usually doesn't see, and usually doesn't understand until weeks or months later), which describe the point of view or identity that the client has been stuck in. The client has clung to it up till now, in the belief that it was the best possible, and in that sense the only possible, point of view or identity for them to take on. The next step is the client's soul healing, which always begins with the insight that that point of view or identity is now no longer needed, and therefore should be let go.

At this stage the poison has been neutralised with positivity, and the slate wiped clean. But the client is still vulnerable to re-injuring themselves in the same way as before. Enter forgiveness, or self-forgiveness -- a letting go of all emotional, and, more importantly, any soul attachment to the situation. It's full closure on that whole issue. It's letting those wounds heal, until even the scar tissue is all gone. This can take hours of practising self-forgiveness and forgiveness of the other(s). The trouble is, many don't include any such thing as a daily spiritual practice. I suggest such a daily practice should be essential to everyone's life until they're "automatically" doing it all the time. No doubt this is what the saying of Jesus that you shouldn't let the sun set on your anger was pointing to.

In his autobiography, Alan Watts pointed out that the Episcopalian and the Roman Catholic liturgy (and no doubt other Christian and Jewish liturgies, I expect) devote most of their word count to "asking God not to spank us". And although we here may not be at such an infantile level by any means, I suggest the motivation behind such an emphasis on seeking forgiveness is extremely valid. But the truth is, God doesn't in fact judge us after our death. Instead, we judge ourselves. In this way, self-forgiveness is surely what "being clear of karma" is all about.

Sufficiently deep and prolonged experience of bliss will take you to the same point too. A point where you begin to genuinely feel so loved by the universe (or God) that all your shortcomings are forgiven.

[Guish]

Karma has no grips on someone if actions are no longer done for one's benefit. I guess that's why selfless actions have the best results and this is why your healing practice works fine when you let go of the " I ".

[Finefeather]

Karma is a word often misused as most do not fully understand it...this is why I prefer a more western approach.

Karma has 4 aspects to it:
Good sowing.
Bad sowing.
Good reaping.
Bad reaping.

We can easily see in our lives and those around us these aspects of karma being played out.

Karma is determined and gauged primarily from the laws of life.

The laws of life are those which concern our thoughts, attitudes and actions with others...they are consciousness related...and remember 'others' means all monads...including minerals, plants and animals...because each of these kingdoms are on the same evolutionary path as humans are...so although most think that they are separate and do not count in our life...they form part of the bigger picture...and are one with us along the long road we are on.

If we look at the Buddhist lamas...for example...they would walk around an ant rather than over it...and I have seen many around me do the same...they cannot even hurt a fly which keeps sitting on their nose.:)

Everything is a life...the only difference is it's state of consciousness.

There are other laws...like the laws of nature and here we see the instant reaping when we run into a wall and not pay attention to the matter aspect of life...it usually results in a bloody nose...or a missing tooth...to say the least :) ...and all of these laws also concern the energy aspect...because all matter is a display of energy.

Good sowing and reaping and bad sowing and reaping is always determined by the part it plays...or has played in the growth of consciousness...OR...the part it plays...or has played in the prevention of the growth of consciousness.

Good always leads to consciousness growth...and bad(evil) always prevents consciousness growth.

Beware of the follies of thinking that karma is something we need to judge...because no one...except a Causal Self or higher... can determine the karmic condition of a person.

Karma is a highly complicated law and it often brings into our view events which are millions of years in the making...what good reaping or bad reaping happen in our lives today might be a result of our actions over many previous lifetimes.

We may think that it is a tragedy when someone gets 'killed' or hurt in some horrendous manner...when in fact it might just be bad reaping in action...and our interference in most of these seemingly tragic events may lead to our own bad sowing.

The best way to look at karma in all its aspects is to see it as a vibration which we need to harmonise with the laws of unity and unconditional love...and the greatest thing is that life does not 'forget' our good sowing and that is why so many live lives of good reaping.

We always reap what we sow...and what we sow we reap...two side of the same coin...which side will your coin land on?

Take carefully
Ray

[Guish]

Like TH usually says, when one operates from the higher mind, there's no duality and no sense of good or bad. Things that flow from the divine mind are full of compassion. I'm stressing on this because people think they need to do good and do good so that good will happen back to them. This is limited and robotic. It's the same as with prayers. Just doing prayers doesn't make one holy. Actions should follow the prayers and the consciousness should grow as well.

[Finefeather]

Like TH usually says, when one operates from the higher mind, there's no duality and no sense of good or bad. Things that flow from the divine mind are full of compassion. I'm stressing on this because people think they need to do good and do good so that good will happen back to them. This is limited and robotic. It's the same as with prayers. Just doing prayers doesn't make one holy. Actions should follow the prayers and the consciousness should grow as well.
Hi Guish
Yes what you say might be correct depending on what the 'higher mind' is that you are referring to...We need to keep in mind that non- duality can only come with unity...as I mentioned in my post above...which can only come with a clean karma.

I do not think that anyone who is all good will be doing it because he/she want's something in return...because if that was their attitude/motive...it would be bad sowing...you cannot fool the law...those who have reached that point will know the workings of karma well enough to know that.

I would like to ask you or anyone reading this for 2 things...

What is your understanding of a 'higher mind'... and...what is your understanding of duality...

Ray

[greybeard]

Ray
For me there is no higher separate mind just Self I am praying to Self
Non-duality is One without a second---I am the totality all of it.

If I say to much then it gets open to miss-understanding

NDE Mellen Thomas Benedict got a "question from Source"-- "Tell me what I am not and where I am not?"

That kind of covers it.

Chris

[Ikarusion]

i have something personal to add, if you allow me to regress for a moment.

last winter i believe, my dreams and trainee showed me that i hold on to anger.
back then it was pretty surprising. i thought i developed a somewhat healthy relationship towards anger. well these past weeks it felt like i stored up so much, that it started to bubble up and for about thursday evening to friday afternoon i had a couple of outbursts of frustration, sadness and anger. i had to leave work since things kept coming up every few hours. i cried a lot. that is something i dont do often.

at home i felt like rereading some things about anger and chakras in the hope of finding something that would help me deal with my situation. i found something incredibly spot on, that i was compelled to share it here:

http://pinkyogini.com/2011/05/anger-and-the-solar-plexus-chakra/

Anger occurs when we feel that our boundaries have been violated. Anger is part of a spectrum of energies that include rage, hatred, self-hatred, pride, aggressive, ambition, assertiveness, power, strength, motivation,will, justice, vengeance, self-esteem, and self-preservation. Without anger we would be a doormat, lacking the strength to support own existence. We would quickly become extinguished or else completely dependent on someone else. Without anger, we would be unable to do the right thing or fulfill our personal destiny because we would simply have no control over ourselves at all.

Of course, anger can be challenging, as most people know. When you are seeing red you generally do not feel very in control. Even more challenging-perhaps- than at out of control temper is suppressed anger. How do you know if you have suppressed anger? Classic signs are tight muscles in the neck, shoulders, and jaw, fists that tend to clench, low energy and a tendency towards depression, attraction towards wry humor and constant joke-making, procrastination and a tendency to be late, difficulty accomplishing things, low self-esteem, and extreme passivity and over-niceness. In essence, many of the same signs which indicate a troubled solar plexus. To suppress anger is to suppress our own power.

So, why would anyone suppress their anger? Generally, this can (once again) be traced back to childhood and a parent (or two) who constantly disrespected the child’s will and personal boundaries. Kids do not have the power to enforce their personal boundaries, so if the parents choose to violate them, there is little the child can do to protect themselves. This leads to a sense of powerlessness and futility. To be angry means to have a boundary and defend that boundary, but when one’s boudaries are constantly being violated and one cannot defend them, the anger can seem futile. Additionally, in most of these households anger would simply increase the punishment and encourage the violater, and possibly provide the violator with a reason to blame the kid. (They are bad because they are angry, and so they deserve the violation.) In this way, suppressing anger can be a way of trying to be good, in the hopes that being good will make you safe.

A person with suppressed anger must first undo the belief that feeling or expressing anger makes you bad. To believe this is tantamount to believing that you have no right to be alive at all. It might be useful to explore why you think anger is bad, why you think God would think anger is bad, and how certain people may have said or implied that your anger was bad. How might it have benefited them to do this?

Once you have removed the mental strongholds from the anger, you will naturally begin to know how you want to express it. Many people recommend some form of more aggressive physical activity to help channel anger. You could try boxing, wrestling, archery, or tae bo. Another idea is to practice expressing specifically what you are mad about. This can be to another person, if that is safe, but if not then in writing. You can simply write down exactly what you are mad about, how you feel the other person violated you, and what you feel they ought to have done instead. Even this can be challenging if you have come to think of yourself as having few rights and little value. But, if you feel it is too difficult, then return again to examining your ideas about anger, and prior experiences with it. Why, exactly, do you think it is bad, or what are you afraid will happen if you express it? Where do these ideas and fears come from?
the things i made bold really perfectly describe the things i do. sadly they are pretty much all the symptoms that are named.

and yes, this started in my childhood. my mother raised 3 boys alone.
my brothers are about 10 years older then me and from what i heard could be little devils. so i wanted to make it easy for my mom at least in regards to me. always doing what she wanted, even though i didnt really want to etc.

this naturally made me quite passive and got me to just absorb all things i didnt like instead of saying enough is enough.
however, since around 20 i changed my lifestyle. started doing sports regulary and eating better, shortly before was when i finished my apprenticeship and moved out. so this changed a lot and i thought i've gained an outlet for my frustration and all was ok.

but then after a while, people close to me have died and during my last crying fits i noticed i still hold frustration about that. that and some older things also, although those been there so long, they feel rather weak now.

i actually thought im through with most of these negative behaviour, but i realised i might not behave as i used to in my personal life, but at work i fall back to my old behaviour. i sometimes could smack people for their egoistic actions, obviously i dont do it and usually dont say too much and just smile while i clentch my fist.

this has gotten a bit better recently, where i try to verbalize my frustration but it appears i still need to balance this out for the long run.

anyway, i was surprised how spot on the article could define things that have been such a solid part of me for what feels like always, that i wanted to share it here.

hope this helps someone else. take care all and thank you
ika

[Ikarusion]

ou, as an addendum: i have started to take an ormus elixir last wednesday evening and since take about one teaspoon each morning and evening. i am not sure, but knowing me i believe this could have triggered my outbursts.

the last thing that could compare to this was the first time i had ayahuasca.
the next morning i had multiple crying outbursts as well, but only for half a day. with the difference being that i wasnt really sure what i cried about back then.

either way, once this stopped a very thick calmness came over me.. i still havent felt any anger since friday.
sometimes its nice to feel extremes.

[Guish]

i have something personal to add, if you allow me to regress for a moment.

last winter i believe, my dreams and trainee showed me that i hold on to anger.
back then it was pretty surprising. i thought i developed a somewhat healthy relationship towards anger. well these past weeks it felt like i stored up so much, that it started to bubble up and for about thursday evening to friday afternoon i had a couple of outbursts of frustration, sadness and anger. i had to leave work since things kept coming up every few hours. i cried a lot. that is something i dont do often.

at home i felt like rereading some things about anger and chakras in the hope of finding something that would help me deal with my situation. i found something incredibly spot on, that i was compelled to share it here:

http://pinkyogini.com/2011/05/anger-and-the-solar-plexus-chakra/

Anger occurs when we feel that our boundaries have been violated. Anger is part of a spectrum of energies that include rage, hatred, self-hatred, pride, aggressive, ambition, assertiveness, power, strength, motivation,will, justice, vengeance, self-esteem, and self-preservation. Without anger we would be a doormat, lacking the strength to support own existence. We would quickly become extinguished or else completely dependent on someone else. Without anger, we would be unable to do the right thing or fulfill our personal destiny because we would simply have no control over ourselves at all.

Of course, anger can be challenging, as most people know. When you are seeing red you generally do not feel very in control. Even more challenging-perhaps- than at out of control temper is suppressed anger. How do you know if you have suppressed anger? Classic signs are tight muscles in the neck, shoulders, and jaw, fists that tend to clench, low energy and a tendency towards depression, attraction towards wry humor and constant joke-making, procrastination and a tendency to be late, difficulty accomplishing things, low self-esteem, and extreme passivity and over-niceness. In essence, many of the same signs which indicate a troubled solar plexus. To suppress anger is to suppress our own power.

So, why would anyone suppress their anger? Generally, this can (once again) be traced back to childhood and a parent (or two) who constantly disrespected the child’s will and personal boundaries. Kids do not have the power to enforce their personal boundaries, so if the parents choose to violate them, there is little the child can do to protect themselves. This leads to a sense of powerlessness and futility. To be angry means to have a boundary and defend that boundary, but when one’s boudaries are constantly being violated and one cannot defend them, the anger can seem futile. Additionally, in most of these households anger would simply increase the punishment and encourage the violater, and possibly provide the violator with a reason to blame the kid. (They are bad because they are angry, and so they deserve the violation.) In this way, suppressing anger can be a way of trying to be good, in the hopes that being good will make you safe.

A person with suppressed anger must first undo the belief that feeling or expressing anger makes you bad. To believe this is tantamount to believing that you have no right to be alive at all. It might be useful to explore why you think anger is bad, why you think God would think anger is bad, and how certain people may have said or implied that your anger was bad. How might it have benefited them to do this?

Once you have removed the mental strongholds from the anger, you will naturally begin to know how you want to express it. Many people recommend some form of more aggressive physical activity to help channel anger. You could try boxing, wrestling, archery, or tae bo. Another idea is to practice expressing specifically what you are mad about. This can be to another person, if that is safe, but if not then in writing. You can simply write down exactly what you are mad about, how you feel the other person violated you, and what you feel they ought to have done instead. Even this can be challenging if you have come to think of yourself as having few rights and little value. But, if you feel it is too difficult, then return again to examining your ideas about anger, and prior experiences with it. Why, exactly, do you think it is bad, or what are you afraid will happen if you express it? Where do these ideas and fears come from?
the things i made bold really perfectly describe the things i do. sadly they are pretty much all the symptoms that are named.

and yes, this started in my childhood. my mother raised 3 boys alone.
my brothers are about 10 years older then me and from what i heard could be little devils. so i wanted to make it easy for my mom at least in regards to me. always doing what she wanted, even though i didnt really want to etc.

this naturally made me quite passive and got me to just absorb all things i didnt like instead of saying enough is enough.
however, since around 20 i changed my lifestyle. started doing sports regulary and eating better, shortly before was when i finished my apprenticeship and moved out. so this changed a lot and i thought i've gained an outlet for my frustration and all was ok.

but then after a while, people close to me have died and during my last crying fits i noticed i still hold frustration about that. that and some older things also, although those been there so long, they feel rather weak now.

i actually thought im through with most of these negative behaviour, but i realised i might not behave as i used to in my personal life, but at work i fall back to my old behaviour. i sometimes could smack people for their egoistic actions, obviously i dont do it and usually dont say too much and just smile while i clentch my fist.

this has gotten a bit better recently, where i try to verbalize my frustration but it appears i still need to balance this out for the long run.

anyway, i was surprised how spot on the article could define things that have been such a solid part of me for what feels like always, that i wanted to share it here.

hope this helps someone else. take care all and thank you
ika

I like this and can relate to this a lot. I had a tough childhood battling epilepsy and having a mother that used to beat me. I spent my teenage years writing heavy metal songs and eventually calmed down during my mid 20's. I look very calm now and no one would actually believe how much I've been through before. Just like you, I used to suck it up and not react most of the time. I still have some stuck negative energy inside. Sometimes, during Zazen, I'd feel a very violent energy coming up and I'd just witness it come and go. I remember using this song to vent anger a lot.

dwZuFexTy0k

[Finefeather]

For me there is no higher separate mind just Self I am praying to Self

Lets just discuss this very shortly...and remember I am not trying to convince anyone of anything...each must experience his own.

You are right to say there is no higher separate mind...but then who is doing the praying when you say “I am praying to Self”?

It must surely be the ego or some other thing we are identifying ourselves with...and if this might be accepted then what is this “I” that we all use to address ourselves as? Who or what is “I”? and who or what is “Self”

No human actually fully understands the nature of his/her own constitution because you need to be conscious in the Causal World...to know who you really are...the 'Self-awareness' that humans talk of is not awareness of the true Self...it is simply awareness of our existence as an Emotional Being...or a Mental Being...depending on which of our envelopes the real Self is focused in.

This true Self is what humans need to discover...and by talking of a higher mind or higher self we are simply just hoping that there is something higher because we are so lacking in our current mind.

There are 4 mental levels in our constitution before we even get to the Causal level and if we are...say...at the bottom of these 4 levels...then there are 3 levels above which could be called a higher mind.

Mind simply means the level of consciousness which we have achieved ...so the “mind of 'god'” would means the collective consciousness of the entire Solar System.

The true “Self” is that which we are...everything that exists is a monad...or a collection of monads...in various states of consciousness...as described by Pythagorus…a primordial atom.

A human is a monad/Self in a state of consciousness which they have reached after billions of years of consciousness evolution…

All humans should go and pat themselves on the back for the amazing level they have reached in consciousness...and yet it is almost insignificant in the overall vast Cosmic world...and then we have those who think that they are so advanced when they think they have reached some enlightened state...when in fact they are far from even the “Nirvana”...which the Buddha achieved.

The problem is...which most humans cannot even own yet...is the ego...it tells them that when they have read something they are now experts...far from it.

Take care
Ray

[Finefeather]

Non-duality is One without a second---I am the totality all of it.

Lets just discuss this very shortly...and remember I am not trying to convince anyone of anything...each must experience his own.

Duality is far from what humans have concocted to serve as an explanation, and have simply used obvious differences like good and bad...right and wrong...up and down...etc

It is believed that if we do not see a difference between good and bad that we have conquered duality...when we “operate in the higher mind” there is no duality.

Even the highest Beings see good and bad...there is an old esoteric saying “if you are not with me, then you are against me” which identifies that we need to choose on which side our path leads...to the light or to darkness...where light is evolution and darkness is involution.

It is our attitudes that matter when dealing with good and bad.

So...as I posted in my above post...which mind?

Any higher mind that a human is conscious in is far from knowing non-duality...simply because humans cannot understand fully the real meaning of duality...yet they write all manner of fiction to make them feel in command and ahead of others.

Let me quote a small piece from true esoterics because I could not say it any better so why waste time...and truth is truth.


The term spirit–matter has several symbolic meanings. It signifies consciousness–matter in
the most general sense, the consciousness and matter aspects, but also the third triad and the
first triad, being the highest and lowest consciousness in the solar system, and the unity of all
consciousness (after the opposition of higher and lower has ceased) experienced by the 43-
self in the atomic consciousness of the physical world (thus the “lowest kind” of
consciousness).
When the monad has centred itself in the third triad, the second triad is dissolved as being
unnecessary. Thereupon the individual is only “spirit” (third triad) and “body” (first triad), no
longer “spirit, soul, and body”. The hermeticians knew this, which is a proof that they had
esoteric knowledge.
“I am what I am” is the symbolic summary in a unity of the three aspects of reality: I am =
will, what = consciousness, I am = matter. In this connection “will” terms the self as a master
of dynamis and thus a sovereign identity with the three aspects. In this unity, the opposition of
“spirit” and matter is abolished, a unity that only the third self is able to grasp but which
becomes ever more realized in cosmic evolution.
The identification of spirit and matter also appears in the symbolic saying: spirit is the
highest kind of matter and matter is the lowest kind of spirit. This abolishes duality and
expresses the unity of spirit and matter, a unity that only the third self can begin to
understand.

Take care
Ray

[Finefeather]

ou, as an addendum: i have started to take an ormus elixir last wednesday evening and since take about one teaspoon each morning and evening. i am not sure, but knowing me i believe this could have triggered my outbursts.

the last thing that could compare to this was the first time i had ayahuasca.
the next morning i had multiple crying outbursts as well, but only for half a day. with the difference being that i wasnt really sure what i cried about back then.

either way, once this stopped a very thick calmness came over me.. i still havent felt any anger since friday.
sometimes its nice to feel extremes.
Any participation in external substances which alter our mind in any way are not permanent and a waste of time...at best we will be dumped into the lower astral worlds where everything we see we have created and is just illusion...and as great as this illusion might seem...it is not reality.

There is only one way to higher consciousness...and it comes from our own inner personal development and striving towards unity and unconditional love.

Ray

[TraineeHuman]

So many things to comment on. In this post I'll just stick to commenting more, I hope relevantly, about the crucial topic of forgiveness and karma. (And I've already commented in this thread regarding the psychically very destructive effects of marijuana and presumably of ayahuasca as well. Ormus could be promising.)

One part of self-forgiveness, for me, is to try and ensure I never make another's "karma" into my "karma" -- unless it was already my problem to start with. As they do say, in Counselling 201, we should always do. Only then can I remain free and clear to hopefully help save the other in the midst of their submersion in their own "karma". Detachment. Detachment. Detachment.

Self-forgiveness means freedom as a soul. It also means not being controlled through seeking others' approval. Caring about others, yes. But not continually seeking their reassurance that you are doing OK. Sovereignty. Sovereignty. Sovereignty.

In my experience or observation, it seems that in the first days after a person dies they usually carry out a life review. After that's over, they unfortunately jump to making certain negative self-judgments -- i.e. decisions that they can't forgive themselves on certain points. At rebirth, these are taken on again, and as far as I know they are what amounts to that person's "karma" at the beginning of the next lifetime. So:

total (responsible, honest) self-forgiveness = no "karma".

[greybeard]

Hi Ray
The ego me is praying to the Self---in reality there is no me--its just a thought which is ego and it is an illusion.


Where I am at, this is a belief.
I believe that there is only One without a second--there is no pronoun no I. What need is there for it when there is only awareness which does not need anything to know that it is?
Mooji is very clear--- what you truly are is the Ultimate---I believe him.

Tims opening post here is simple and explicit
With love and respect
Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...

[Finefeather]

total (responsible, honest) self-forgiveness = no "karma".
Freedom from karma cannot be about self-forgiveness...because if that is the case then we could murder a few of our enemies and just forgive our self...

There is a lot more to karma than I wrote in my post above...and it involves refinement of molecular states in our various envelopes which determines the consciousness level of our mind.

Self-forgiveness is a conscious act...but there is a state where ignorance of life may be seen as not able, always, to be conscious of the nature of our actions...but in life as a human...which ever country we are in...there are laws...and ignorance of the law is no excuse...so we need to learn from mistakes.

Most countries have laws which cover most of the major no nos in life...the rest come from our upbringing and experience and conscience...which is our state of mind (consciousness).


Ray

[Finefeather]

Hi Ray
The ego me is praying to the Self---in reality there is no me--its just a thought which is ego and it is an illusion.

Chris if the ego was an illusion then the whole world would be an illusion...:)

The ego is a very real stage of our lives which we learn to control...it's like anger...one day we learn to overcome it...but during it's life it might have caused many real problems...and after anger?...we still see it reign in the lives of others.

The overcoming of the ego is a process which takes place when our reasoning becomes more logical...this is an inner process which comes from consciousness growth.

My love and respect to you too always.
Ray

[Guish]

Buddha made it sound really simple. Is my action going to cause suffering to anyone? Before acting, one should ask this question. In my experience, there are actions done in a state of bliss, intuitively. These actions can never do harm to anyone and no thinking is used for these actions to happen. A lot of management issues can be solved just by being open, honest and selfless. I'm quite a young manager but many senior managers asked me what I'd do in certain cases and my response was always based on the three things I mentioned. This advice ends up working also. I mentioned it earlier in this thread. You get everything when you don't ask for anything. This is what happened to me.

[TraineeHuman]

One of the many things it's easy to get confused about is, what do you mean by "mind," or "consciousness"? It means different things at different levels of existence/reality. Following the standard mainstream Vedanta terminology as I understand it, once one is at a high enough plane of existence, Mind ceases to operate by thought altogether, and instead uses direct "vision". (And I don't mean physical sight, of course.) You can only ever appreciate the truth of this through direct experience yourself, of course (as I happen to have done), and not through any intellectual arguing about what is mind. The Vedanta preference is to still call it "Mind" at that level. I happen to prefer to do so as well. The exact higher level where I believe thought cuts out completely is at the level I have referred to as "Illumined MInd" or "Enlightened Mind". Following mainstream Vedanta, I deny that this is Source's "Mind", or, if you like, that it is the level of "Mind" with which Source associates. Again, the question is, has the reader had the experience that these two (i.e., Illumined Mind and Divine Mind) seem to be clearly different, and therefore at different levels in some way? All this is territory where trying to use intellectual thought to figure anything out will get you nowhere.

These are only several of many truths I could mention that show -- to those with "eyes to see" -- that there are different higher levels of Mind.

[Finefeather]

You get everything when you don't ask for anything.
Except when we have to ask our boss for that new computer we so badly want :)

The thing to remember is that it is not about the 'everything' we get when we don't ask for it...it's 'what are we going to do with the 'everything' we get'...

Good reaping is not about getting loads of money...for example... to allow us to live in luxury...life is giving us a chance to see what we will do with all that money...because having sowed well previously...life is helping us to continue our good sowing...and hopefully we will use that money for the benefit of others less fortunate and for objects which will uplift the state of mind of the weary so they can begin to realise that there is beauty in life...which they can begin to want to follow as well.

With love
Ray

[greybeard]

Depends how you define ego Ray

All the Sages I have read Including the late Dr David Hawkins say that the ego is a separation device--separates one from true identity--the Ultimate
It is identification with the story of me-- However Of myself I do nothing.

You can be fully aware of this world with thoughtless awareness--no ego.
The awareness just is its not personal.

However to muddy the water Ramana said
"Neither creation nor dissolution ever happened"

Idras dream

Baghavad Gita
"Events happen
Deeds are done
there is no doer there of."

Christ-- "Of myself I do nothing it is the Father within"----"The Father and I are one"

Please have a look at Tims thread Ray.

That's as clear an indication of what I believe as any.

The more I post the more room for miss understanding.

I may not express it well but its in depth understanding of many years of daily "study"

Much love
Chris

[Finefeather]

One of the many things it's easy to get confused about is, what do you mean by "mind," or "consciousness"? It means different things at different levels of existence/reality. Following the standard mainstream Vedanta terminology as I understand it, once one is at a high enough plane of existence, Mind ceases to operate by thought altogether, and instead uses direct "vision". (And I don't mean physical sight, of course.) You can only ever appreciate the truth of this through direct experience yourself, of course (as I happen to have done), and not through any intellectual arguing about what is mind. The Vedanta preference is to still call it "Mind" at that level. I happen to prefer to do so as well. The exact higher level where I believe thought cuts out completely is at the level I have referred to as "Illumined MInd" or "Enlightened Mind". Following mainstream Vedanta, I deny that this is Source's "Mind", or, if you like, that it is the level of "Mind" with which Source associates. Again, the question is, has the reader had the experience that these two (i.e., Illumined Mind and Divine Mind) seem to be clearly different, and therefore at different levels in some way? All this is territory where trying to use intellectual thought to figure anything out will get you nowhere.

These are only several of many truths I could mention that show -- to those with "eyes to see" -- that there are different higher levels of Mind.
I agree that there are different levels of mind but mind will always be consciousness and there are different levels of consciousness.

My study of Vedante text tells me that no practitioner has ever reached levels higher than the upper levels of the emotional/astral worlds...and the lower levels of the mental worlds.... or consciousness and their entire philosophy is based on fiction around this low level of achievement...they are certainly more advanced than the Christian religion...and on a par with general Hinduism.

Never forget the part played by our dark brothers when they gained control of the world thinking...around 20 000 years ago... and fictionalized virtually every religion and philosophy on this planet...including...Christianity...Buddhism and all Indian philosophies.

Most people just have no idea...and won't believe... that their very lives...spiritually... are based on fiction created by those who do not want us to advance into higher worlds.

I have not seen this writing were you say that 'vision' is the next step to mind...but in my experience this is incorrect...because mind...which is consciousness exists all the way up to Cosmic levels...which no Vedante practitioner has ever experienced...and I say that because they have not even yet realised the true nature of the trinity of life...one aspect been consciousness.

What is the "Illumined Mind" or the "Enlightened Mind" other than whatever anyone wants to make it in their own minds...these in my mind are 2 ideas created by those who have not yet seen the true nature of life into the Cosmic worlds...which are very much higher than any human has ever even dreamed about...never mind experienced.

This is the same as the word "Source" which so many use with little idea of what it actually even means...there is only one "source" and that is the individual primordial atom...or monad... from which we each have grown from...the rest of the Cosmos is a collective of these "sources".

Anyone who pretends to know what created life beyond Cosmic levels by assumption and presentation of words like "source"... is just a dreamer...these people seem to think that they know something which other more ignorant people don't know...and that their word for this...God...is just an illusion. :)


Take care
Ray

[Finefeather]

Depends how you define ego Ray

All the Sages I have read Including the late Dr David Hawkins say that the ego is a separation device--separates one from true identity--the Ultimate
It is identification with the story of me-- However Of myself I do nothing.

You can be fully aware of this world with thoughtless awareness--no ego.
The awareness just is its not personal.

However to muddy the water Ramana said
"Neither creation nor dissolution ever happened"

Idras dream

Baghavad Gita
"Events happen
Deeds are done
there is no doer there of."

Christ-- "Of myself I do nothing it is the Father within"----"The Father and I are one"

Please have a look at Tims thread Ray.

That's as clear an indication of what I believe as any.

The more I post the more room for miss understanding.

I may not express it well but its in depth understanding of many years of daily "study"

Much love
Chris
Chris there are many things we could discuss here with many different views so I would rather not get too deep into it...it could take months :)

As far as Tim goes...

I have read a few of his posts and in my view he is far from enlightened...it all just depends what enlightenment means to each person...and he certainly...in my understanding...is not.

Sorry, I need to be off for a while...maybe I could do some more later.

With love brother
Ray

[greybeard]

Hi Ray
I dont think it fair to discuss this on TraineeHuman's thread as its a bit off topic.

The difficulty is that I know nothing of your path and I am aware that a word in one path can mean something completely different in another.
Even the word "mind" ---- I think there is only the mind of "God" and he dreamt all this up ----perhaps, maybe.
The "Enlightened sages" in my experience are uniform in what is said--no person left to claim enlightenment---and statements like "I am the totality all of it" the last one seems used by Indian sages---nothing to do with any philosophy and sometimes the "Awakening" has happened spontaneously with no inclination towards spirituality--in this life time anyway.
However Eckhart Tolle and Dr Hawkins said that while it seems complete--Enlightenment could be seen as kindergarten at a higher level.
Hawkins said that due to the heavy density of this world--enlightenment was the highest possible here---the body could not contain a higher vibration--even after Kundalini prepared it to receive this.

Much Love
Chris

[Finefeather]

Hi Ray
I dont think it fair to discuss this on TraineeHuman's thread as its a bit off topic.

Ok...I'll delete all my posts...sorry I intruded...Ray

[greybeard]

Please dont do that Ray unless Traineehuman says so.
They are of value obviously

Much love Chris

[Guish]

Ray,

I personally appreciate your posts because they give a different perspective. I think you may start your own thread if you feel that you've been unfair to TH's thread.

[greybeard]

Ray what I meant was unfair to discuss it further here as it was heading off topic.
The earlier posts would perhaps have been parallel to the intention of the thread I think.
Sorry if you got the wrong impression from me.
Why dont you start your own thread.

Much love
Chris

[Wind]

I think that these different long threads in the spirituality section are great.
They are talk about the same subject, just with different viewpoints and words.
I would love to read more of Ray's posts and I'm sad that I missed the one's here.

[Finefeather]

Ray what I meant was unfair to discuss it further here as it was heading off topic.
The earlier posts would perhaps have been parallel to the intention of the thread I think.
Sorry if you got the wrong impression from me.
Why dont you start your own thread.

Much love
Chris
Chris
Thank you for this post...

I need to point out to anyone interested that I am bound to uphold my pledge...and that is to withdraw anything that anyone has some conflict with...because I am not here to cause conflict.

I have only come to give out what I know... and during this process I might appear as if I am being personal by weighing up someone's beliefs and knowledge against another reality which exist.

It is never my intention to harm anyone or to belittle anyone...I know the law and it's consequences in my growth...I also know that what I give out might reach out to someone...one in a million...and that would be good.

Take care
Ray

[RunningDeer]

Fortunately, I copied some of Ray’s posts. I happened to run a search on the quoted portion and found it within a free pdf called, “The Knowledge of Reality,” by Henry T. Laurency (http://www.laurency.com/ContKR.htm).

Some of the information you'll recognize, such as Man’s Five Envelopes, The Different Kinds of Consciousness, The Natural Kingdoms and Karma.

With heart,
Paula <3

UPDATE: deleted half of post due to additional information from Ray's most recent posts.



Ray what I meant was unfair to discuss it further here as it was heading off topic.
The earlier posts would perhaps have been parallel to the intention of the thread I think.
Sorry if you got the wrong impression from me.
Why dont you start your own thread.

Much love
Chris
Chris
Thank you for this post...

I need to point out to anyone interested that I am bound to uphold my pledge...and that is to withdraw anything that anyone has some conflict with...because I am not here to cause conflict.

I have only come to give out what I know... and during this process I might appear as if I am being personal by weighing up someone's beliefs and knowledge against another reality which exist.

It is never my intention to harm anyone or to belittle anyone...I know the law and it's consequences in my growth...I also know that what I give out might reach out to someone...one in a million...and that would be good.

Take care
Ray

[Finefeather]

Why dont you start your own thread.

As you will notice if you check, I have never started one thread.

I am not here to start my own threads...I am here to give out knowledge which can be weighed up side by side with that of others...a different technique you might say.

The most significant problem is that many people tend to use a large amount of time... (quoting)...sorry I meant linking... other literature when it would be better if they could give their own understanding and not rely on someone else for us to know what they believe in.

After all this is the Spiritual section of the forum and one would expect that spiritual growth is a display of what we know inwardly and not what we believe or have read in books.

I have never been someone who beats about the bush and in my circle we do not save one another from ignorance, by looking the other way... we give out knowledge to consider...without the emotion getting in the way.

With love
Ray

Changed "quoting" to "linking" above...sorry my hands were faster than my brain :)

[greybeard]

Ray
You are more than welcome to post on the "Enlightenment and related matters" thread.
Its a very open thread and different perspectives fit very well there.

Love to you my brother.

Chris

[Jake]

Also, with Ray's permission, , I'm restoring his posts. :) They are of definite value to this discussion. I can't get enough of the amazing minds here! :) One day we may talk Ray into makin his own thread. Lol.. Ray, your input is priceless..

Cheers to all! :)
Jake

[TraineeHuman]

Shortly after I turned sixteen I directly and ever so vividly experienced the fact that the deepest truth is that I am truly the One, or God, and that every other person and living thing is also. That left a huge problem: the whole society and civilisation and culture was very largely based on a very different account of who/what I am and you are. I then eventually found that to reconcile this difficulty -- to paint a much fuller picture and build bridges into the world others considered "normal" and avoid suffering and misunderstanding -- it was helpful and indeed necessary to use notions of different levels of Mind or consciousness (the two terms being almost identical, at certain levels, when used in the mainstream Vedanta I'm familiar with).

There are certainly many, many types or levels of mind or consciousness. There is a body-consciousness, for example, which is our interface, our ambassador, to all physical experience. ("The body", though, is a construct of that consciousness, and that also has links to higher levels of consciousness.)

Then there are levels of mind just above, or deeper than, the level of body-mind. These include the subconscious to some degree at least. These build towards our realization of an inner being ultimately (for most people) pulling the strings of one's life. That inner being is the lower level of the soul. It's the pure "I" behind our actions. This level of Mind, not unlike the body-mind, is unfortunately very ignorant of itself, of what its true or ultimate nature might be. "Know thyself," indeed. It believes it knows what life is, but it doesn't because even it remains too absorbed in, too identified with, its own standpoint at each moment.

The next level of Mind or consciousness is what I have been calling the Higher Mind. In the thread I've spent some time encouraging readers to practise the exercise of "being at one with" things, of knowing from the inside and not externally. This is the first act of the Higher Mind, or of the soul in the higher sense. The Higher Mind does also have at least the ability to hold many contradictory points of view at the same time. But it makes itself the judge and jury of all things.

The next level is what is known in Vedanta as that of Supermind or Superconsciousness. Here we know that every part of ourselves is also in others, and vice-versa. Superconsciousness also knows that all individualizing arises ultimately out of universality. Indeed, everything the Superconsciousness does contains an awareness, a scent, of universality. This is still not the level of Source, but getting close.

In various situations it's fully appropriate to operate partly or primarily from one of the lower levels.

[greybeard]

TraineeHuman
Thanks for that post
I can identify with quite a lot of it except for Oneness yet

I find that I go up and down levels of consciousness in order to fit in with a situation or a seeming other and yes I can see the truth in all these levels even though this level can seem to be quite different from another as far as perspective goes.
You could say that I could comfortable argue black is white and that white is black yet at that moment I would be speaking the truth as I perceived it yet I would see the others point of view as true or both points of view as untrue.
The over view is a neutrality--- the interaction is important but being right or wrong is of no concern.

Love Chris

[Guish]

Then there are levels of mind just above, or deeper than, the level of body-mind. These include the subconscious to some degree at least. These build towards our realization of an inner being ultimately (for most people) pulling the strings of one's life. That inner being is the lower level of the soul. It's the pure "I" behind our actions. This level of Mind, not unlike the body-mind, is unfortunately very ignorant of itself, of what its true or ultimate nature might be. "Know thyself," indeed. It believes it knows what life is, but it doesn't because even it remains too absorbed in, too identified with, its own standpoint at each moment.



Thank you TH. There's something behind the mind which dictates things. That's why Chris quoted that there's no doer and things just get done. I haven't studied Scriptures like you did and I never had a guru/Master. However, I'm aware of things which I experienced on my own. I'll give a couple of examples of what happened to me.

1/ I met my wife when I wasn't expecting to meet someone and I did nothing to flirt or convince her to marry me.
2/ I got my teaching job and eventually became head of Faculty. I did no interview for the job and the ex headmaster just asked me to come and work for him.
3/ Recently, I thought about a Friend who was studying Engineering with me at uni because I needed an Engineer to do my house plans. I saw him the next day.
4/ Without planning, I had the exact amount of money in the bank to clear all my previous debts before taking a housing loan.
5/ Since I gave up my identity and stayed empty of desires, concepts and willingness to control others, those who hated me began to ask advise from me. Tense relationships became loving ones, everything clicked on its own.
6/ Sid is now 2 years old. All of a sudden, my school decided to buy a Pre-nursery school and Sid just slots in easily. The school intends to go a level up every year and this is great for me.( Financially, this means 90% discount on school fees).

My advise: Lose yourself and god will find you. I can just offer you my experiences. These should be taken not from a rational mind.

Bless you all,
Geerish.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

uwIaWlPnwjU

[Ikarusion]

Any participation in external substances which alter our mind in any way are not permanent and a waste of time...at best we will be dumped into the lower astral worlds where everything we see we have created and is just illusion...and as great as this illusion might seem...it is not reality.

There is only one way to higher consciousness...and it comes from our own inner personal development and striving towards unity and unconditional love.

Ray
i wouldnt regard it as a complete waste of time. i think such experience can get many people interested in spirituality, especially in western cultures.
or lets say that people might start to strive towards unity and unconditional love after such a possible eye opening experience.

especilly when taken in such a ceremonial and respectful way.. i felt like there were spirit doctors examining and helping us.. many people say this of ayahuasca.
i cant speak so well or in such high regards about other chemical perception changers.

it seems obvious, that trainee and you know more about the workings of such compounds on humans, especially from a nonphysical point of view.
i respect and trust you and i am neither advocating nor condemning such drug use.

apparently "there's a right time for everything". for some people it might be useful, for others not. i value your warnings... but i also value my "forced" experiences.

:meeting:

regards,
ika

[Guish]

I think the video applies to meditation/spirituality in general. My way of knowing about the interconnectedness of everything has been the deep pain I experience when I see others in pain. Others can be trees being chopped, dogs wounded on the street, sick people in the hospital or a random person in poverty. All of these fill me with pain. Like Ray said, it's a natural urge to help these people in pain not just for the sake of generating good karma.

o-LhjW3jY7M

[TraineeHuman]

My way of knowing about the interconnectedness of everything has been the deep pain I experience when I see others in pain. Others can be trees being chopped, dogs wounded on the street, sick people in the hospital or a random person in poverty. All of these fill me with pain. Like Ray said, it's a natural urge to help these people in pain not just for the sake of generating good karma.


Yes, indeed. There's more to life than acting out of forgiveness, or in quest of it. There are also many things it's possible to do freely, or, as you and Ray mention, out of compassion for some suffering somewhere.

Then also, in one's spiritual journey another complementary issue to that of forgiveness is the issue of being "tested". Sometimes such testing is an inevitable result of our personal growth, our expansion into previously unexplored territory. But it can very often seem as though the trials we undergo were deliberately constructed to unbalance or frustrate us as much as possible -- seemingly just to see whether we're strong enough not to give up living in the Light.

Another implicit huge test, for instance, is whether or not we can manifest equanimity, or something that's getting close to equanimity. (Certainly not panic, or drama.) This means the ability, in one's heart, to treat respect and insult the same way, regardless of which is the outcome of our actions. Similarly for good luck versus bad luck -- and without becoming dulled into resignation or hardness and bitterness or quiet pride or whatever. These are all subtle versions of ego, but they're still ways in which the ego triumphs over us. They cannot be attained except gradually, and until they are, there's a kind of testing going on all the time, by default. That's because in the background the question is effectively always being asked, of whether we're still a slave of our ego.

[Guish]

Yes brother. Please accept this story.

The Buddha was sitting under a tree talking to his disciples when a man came and spat in his face. He wiped it off, and he asked the man, “What next? What do you want to say next?” The man was a little puzzled because he himself never expected that when you spit in someone’s face he should ask “What next?” He had no such experience in his past. He had insulted people and they had become angry and they had reacted. Or if they were cowards and weaklings, they had smiled, trying to bribe him. But the Buddha was like neither, he was not angry, nor in any way offended, nor in any way cowardly. But just matter-of-factly he said, “What next?” There was no reaction on his part.

But Buddha’s disciples became angry, and they reacted. His closest disciple, Ananda, said, “This is too much. We cannot tolerate it. He has to be punished for it, otherwise everybody will start doing things like this!”

Buddha said, “You keep silent. He has not offended me, but you are offending me. He is new, a stranger. He must have heard from people something about me, that this man is an atheist, a dangerous man who is throwing people off their track, a revolutionary, a corrupter. And he may have formed some idea, a notion of me. He has not spit on me, he has spit on his notion. He has spit on his idea of me because he does not know me at all, so how can he spit on me?

“If you think on it deeply,” Buddha said, “he has spit on his own mind. I am not part of it, and I can see that this poor man must have something else to say because this is a way of saying something. Spitting is a way of saying something. There are moments when you feel that language is impotent: in deep love, in intense anger, in hate, in prayer. There are intense moments when language is impotent. Then you have to do something. When you are angry, intensely angry, you hit the person, you spit on him, you are saying something. I can understand him. He must have something more to say, that’s why I’m asking, “What next?”

The man was even more puzzled! And Buddha said to his disciples, “I am more offended by you because you know me, and you have lived for years with me, and still you react.”

Puzzled, confused, the man returned home. He could not sleep the whole night. When you see a Buddha, it is difficult, impossible to sleep anymore the way you used to sleep before. Again and again he was haunted by the experience. He could not explain it to himself, what had happened. He was trembling all over, sweating and soaking the sheets. He had never come across such a man; the Buddha had shattered his whole mind and his whole pattern, his whole past.

The next morning he went back. He threw himself at Buddha’s feet. Buddha asked him again, “What next? This, too, is a way of saying something that cannot be said in language. When you come and touch my feet, you are saying something that cannot be said ordinarily, for which all words are too narrow; it cannot be contained in them.” Buddha said, “Look, Ananda, this man is again here, he is saying something. This man is a man of deep emotions.”

The man looked at Buddha and said, “Forgive me for what I did yesterday.”

Buddha said, “Forgive? But I am not the same man to whom you did it. The Ganges goes on flowing, it is never the same Ganges again. Every man is a river. The man you spit upon is no longer here. I look just like him, but I am not the same, much has happened in these twenty-four hours! The river has flowed so much. So I cannot forgive you because I have no grudge against you.

“And you also are new. I can see you are not the same man who came yesterday because that man was angry and he spit, whereas you are bowing at my feet, touching my feet. How can you be the same man? You are not the same man, so let us forget about it. Those two people, the man who spit and the man on whom he spit, both are no more. Come closer. Let us talk of something else.”

[TraineeHuman]

Any participation in external substances which alter our mind in any way are not permanent and a waste of time...at best we will be dumped into the lower astral worlds where everything we see we have created and is just illusion...and as great as this illusion might seem...it is not reality.

There is only one way to higher consciousness...and it comes from our own inner personal development and striving towards unity and unconditional love.

Ray
i wouldnt regard it as a complete waste of time. i think such experience can get many people interested in spirituality, especially in western cultures.
or lets say that people might start to strive towards unity and unconditional love after such a possible eye opening experience.
...

apparently "there's a right time for everything". for some people it might be useful, for others not. i value your warnings... but i also value my "forced" experiences.


Let me try to slightlt clarify two of a number of problems which, to the best of my understanding, marijuana may cause for many people. Because the truth should be told even when some of it may be unpopular.

Ironically, one problem is that marijuana opens you up to a broader range of experience, and of extra-physical states at that. This could be a very good thing for someone who could remain in one-pointed, equanimous control of the experience. But in my limited experience I find that most very experienced and aware meditators seem to lack such control. The drug pushes their awareness out of their body, but it's as if they were blindfolded; or, if not blindfolded, then too passive to be able to identify who or what may be interacting with them. Which I suggest is comparable to walking around in ignorance that one has a sign on the back of one's head (or back) saying: "Kick me!" Worse, you are in effect leaving yourself at the mercy of any 4D being or energy entering you and subsequently living inside of you, maybe for what can feel like forever. Small wonder that most marijuana smokers feel paranoid but don't remember why.

What a contrast -- yet also in some ways a similarity -- to consciously dwelling in a formless state, where there is no limitation apparent, not of the kind we constantly encounter in the physical world. And no limitation, of the kind one experiences there, means no limitation of that kind on your sovereignty. Ironically, though, that sovereignty is achieved through a deliberate self-giving without reserve. And all that's in sharp contrast to being so dominated by a drug that one is too much in a passive state of dullness or escapism.

Apart from that, through a drug you may easily get your consciousness expanded in a way you're not ready for. This is the same kind of scenario as where an eight-year-old gets to own and play with a loaded pistol. How much extended suffering could that perhaps cause others and you? Continually using a sledgehammer when all you needed was a gentle press of your fingertip?

Another problem is that marijuana can cut you off radically from parts of your consciousness connected to the body and the biological lifecycle. There's been much said in this Forum about "sociopaths", but, as I have a degree in psychology and a degree in social work and experience of living every day with such things as formlessness, let me try and very briefly describe some aspects of what such a condition really means. Marijuana makes you more strongly sociopathic. (There are plenty of unbiased studies that seem to prove that.) For one thing, people with strongly sociopathic traits (typically, known to psychologists as all psychotics, all drug addicts and all criminals, and some others) generally don't realize they're not being "normal". They have a great indifference to social obligations such as having to work for a living or not neglecting nor abusing any children they may unfortunately have, or not hugely manipulating others. This is because they've simply kind of amputated their "human" or "animal" side -- though they typically are extremely good at manipulatively feigning friendliness. The bad guys don't wear black hats like in the old Westerns. They wear ultra-white hats instead.

It's quite true that to seriously advance spiritually you need to be able to enter states and perceptions where all things are equal. To do so in the right way is what being free of the ego --and of the ordinary (thinking) mind -- is all about. Renunciation. But it has to be right renunciation. It can sometimes feel like you're lost at sea, though, or quite "lost" somewhere. Most people have no idea of what's involved here, or how vast the territory is. Because higher states have not been familiar to you, going into them initially seems much weirder than anything you might have imagined. Eventually you'll learn to integrate them with ordinary living within the ordinary world of consensus reality. Eventually, after a very, very long time. The trouble is, your body-consciousness goes on living. It goes on desiring human contact and friendship which includes a strong "animal" consciousness in the sense of needing togetherness and needing to feel accepted in basic simple ways and so on. But you have temporarily cut adrift from "hearing" your body-consciousness very well. However much you create situations for such things as meaningful friendship and romance and commitment to work, because you have cut adrift you have imprisoned or tortured your body-consciousness. That puts the body-consciousness out of action. It won't as easily come out to genuinely play or be childlike (as distinct from childish), or do honest work.

[Guish]

Good point, TH. There are no short cuts in the spiritual path. I have an Ex student who has taken all sorts of synthetic drugs to have higher levels of consciousness. He nearly killed himself at times. He admitted that he chose drug intake because it was the easiest option to have such experiences. Buddha didn't accept to teach her own wife because she was still emotionally attached to him. He showed her the path when she was ready. There's a rush for everything nowadays. Renunciation and sacrifice are very important. What's even important is to walk the path slowly because one does get hit violently at times and spiritual maturity and inner peace are very important. I have visited some very dark and ugly corners of myself during my practice. A normal person would have freaked out if such things were experienced without having the maturity. I remember a zen master who used to live as a beggar because the divine kingdom was inside. He asked a potential student to live a few days with him if the latter wanted to be taught. The student couldn't do it and the master refused to initiate him. Willpower is very important.

[thunder24]

i live in the middle of the woods, and the other night we were hearing weird noises outside, so im asleep and me lady wakes me up and says she hears something right out the door, so when i wake up I say " is the bed vibrating" she says no and I think to myself was I haveing an obe or was it "bigfoot" (half laughing half not)... but my question, if I was having an obe would I feel this vibration as Im consciously awake and talking...? thanks

[Finefeather]

Let me try to slightlt clarify two of a number of problems which, to the best of my understanding, marijuana may cause for many people. Because the truth should be told even when some of it may be unpopular.

Ironically, one problem is that marijuana opens you up to a broader range of experience, and of extra-physical states at that. This could be a very good thing for someone who could remain in one-pointed, equanimous control of the experience. But in my limited experience I find that most very experienced and aware meditators seem to lack such control. The drug pushes their awareness out of their body, but it's as if they were blindfolded; or, if not blindfolded, then too passive to be able to identify who or what may be interacting with them. Which I suggest is comparable to walking around in ignorance that one has a sign on the back of one's head (or back) saying: "Kick me!" Worse, you are in effect leaving yourself at the mercy of any 4D being or energy entering you and subsequently living inside of you, maybe for what can feel like forever. Small wonder that most marijuana smokers feel paranoid but don't remember why.

What a contrast -- yet also in some ways a similarity -- to consciously dwelling in a formless state, where there is no limitation apparent, not of the kind we constantly encounter in the physical world. And no limitation, of the kind one experiences there, means no limitation of that kind on your sovereignty. Ironically, though, that sovereignty is achieved through a deliberate self-giving without reserve. And all that's in sharp contrast to being so dominated by a drug that one is too much in a passive state of dullness or escapism.

Apart from that, through a drug you may easily get your consciousness expanded in a way you're not ready for. This is the same kind of scenario as where an eight-year-old gets to own and play with a loaded pistol. How much extended suffering could that perhaps cause others and you? Continually using a sledgehammer when all you needed was a gentle press of your fingertip?

Another problem is that marijuana can cut you off radically from parts of your consciousness connected to the body and the biological lifecycle. There's been much said in this Forum about "sociopaths", but, as I have a degree in psychology and a degree in social work and experience of living every day with such things as formlessness, let me try and very briefly describe some aspects of what such a condition really means. Marijuana makes you more strongly sociopathic. (There are plenty of unbiased studies that seem to prove that.) For one thing, people with strongly sociopathic traits (typically, known to psychologists as all psychotics, all drug addicts and all criminals, and some others) generally don't realize they're not being "normal". They have a great indifference to social obligations such as having to work for a living or not neglecting nor abusing any children they may unfortunately have, or not hugely manipulating others. This is because they've simply kind of amputated their "human" or "animal" side -- though they typically are extremely good at manipulatively feigning friendliness. The bad guys don't wear black hats like in the old Westerns. They wear ultra-white hats instead.

It's quite true that to seriously advance spiritually you need to be able to enter states and perceptions where all things are equal. To do so in the right way is what being free of the ego --and of the ordinary (thinking) mind -- is all about. Renunciation. But it has to be right renunciation. It can sometimes feel like you're lost at sea, though, or quite "lost" somewhere. Most people have no idea of what's involved here, or how vast the territory is. Because higher states have not been familiar to you, going into them initially seems much weirder than anything you might have imagined. Eventually you'll learn to integrate them with ordinary living within the ordinary world of consensus reality. Eventually, after a very, very long time. The trouble is, your body-consciousness goes on living. It goes on desiring human contact and friendship which includes a strong "animal" consciousness in the sense of needing togetherness and needing to feel accepted in basic simple ways and so on. But you have temporarily cut adrift from "hearing" your body-consciousness very well. However much you create situations for such things as meaningful friendship and romance and commitment to work, because you have cut adrift you have imprisoned or tortured your body-consciousness. That puts the body-consciousness out of action. It won't as easily come out to genuinely play or be childlike (as distinct from childish), or do honest work.
Great post TH...thanks
Ray

[Finefeather]

i live in the middle of the woods, and the other night we were hearing weird noises outside, so im asleep and me lady wakes me up and says she hears something right out the door, so when i wake up I say " is the bed vibrating" she says no and I think to myself was I haveing an obe or was it "bigfoot" (half laughing half not)... but my question, if I was having an obe would I feel this vibration as Im consciously awake and talking...? thanks
No...physical vibrations do not disturb any level of OB...be it etheric or higher...you can however be in an intermediate dreamlike state and if people talk to you from the physical you could interpret it and created your own little dream which could seem very real.

A lot of people have similar experiences when people shout at them to wake up...or pull some prank like pouring water on a sleeping person...they could imagine in their dream state that they are swimming or all sorts of other things :)

Sorry TH I was logged in and on your thread and just thought I would answer this from my experiences...maybe you have others.


Ray

[Jake]

Hey, Thunder. TH does not like me fielding his questions, so my apologies to TH, but I feel I can add a bit, without crossing a line...

The vibrational state that may accompany or precursor an OBE, is not a physical vibration,, but it can certainly feel like it. Only about 5 to 10 percent of folks having OBEs report about the vibrational state. I liken the vibrational state unto two bodies being out of phase.

For example when im tuning my guitar, and trying to match one strings tone to another (especially an electric guitar with distortion), there is a 'wah wah wah' type of vibratory effect that is heard when the two tones are just out of tune with one another.

The subtle 'bodies' that make up the human condition go 'out of phase/tune' with each other during OBE and we experience it as a Vibration.

If I feel any type of these vibrations, I can exit mee body! I don't generally feel them during waking hours, but have been awakened to them countless times. I will stop there. TH. WILL slap me upside the noggin... :)

Jake

[Finefeather]

For example when im tuning my guitar, and trying to match one strings tone to another (especially an electric guitar with distortion), there is a 'wah wah wah' type of vibratory effect that is heard when the two tones are just out of tune with one another.

Hi Jake

It's called a heterodyne... just for info ;)

Take care brother
Ray

[TraineeHuman]

If I meditate for some hours every day for a few days, after a while for a few times a day, while fully awake, I'll normally experience what seems like it was an invisible but noisy vibrating or buzzing field of physical energy that seems as if it's entered the room several meters from my body and then slowly it will move up to me and attempt to merge with my body and energy field. If I don't totally "ride" its vibrations by going into the astral by means of it, after a few minutes it seems to leave, and that noisy vibrating field then slowly passes to the other end of the room and disappears.

It may indeed seem like some kind of energy attack on you or possibly some kind of ET or supernatural visit. Don't feel threatened or concerned. Actually all it means is you're in a space of heightened (positive) energy.

These days I welcome the buzzing field, because if I don't resist it it recharges me physically, so that my body requires little or no sleep that night.

[Chris Gilbert]

It may indeed seem like some kind of energy attack on you or possibly some kind of ET or supernatural visit. Don't feel threatened or concerned. Actually all it means is you're in a space of heightened (positive) energy.

These days I welcome the buzzing field, because if I don't resist it it recharges me physically, so that my body requires little or no sleep that night.

Something similar happens to me usually after 40 minutes into a session (assuming that I've detached from thoughts enough that day). Once it passes I feel very refreshed and cleared out. It can indeed be frightening though if someone isn't used to it or is paranoid in regards to non-physical/non-human beings. IMO many people really shouldn't be diving into deep practices unless under a teacher's guidance or before reaching a good point of maturity themselves.

[Guish]

If I meditate for some hours every day for a few days, after a while for a few times a day, while fully awake, I'll normally experience what seems like it was an invisible but noisy vibrating or buzzing field of physical energy that seems as if it's entered the room several meters from my body and then slowly it will move up to me and attempt to merge with my body and energy field. If I don't totally "ride" its vibrations by going into the astral by means of it, after a few minutes it seems to leave, and that noisy vibrating field then slowly passes to the other end of the room and disappears.

It may indeed seem like some kind of energy attack on you or possibly some kind of ET or supernatural visit. Don't feel threatened or concerned. Actually all it means is you're in a space of heightened (positive) energy.

These days I welcome the buzzing field, because if I don't resist it it recharges me physically, so that my body requires little or no sleep that night.

Hi TH,

Some months ago, I had maybe a similar experience except that I saw shadows on the walls of my room. Just like you, I had been meditating for at least two hours everyday since I was in holidays. I looked at them but I wasn't frightened. They went away by themselves. In this state of consciousness, I hardly feel the need to sleep. Two nights ago, I was in the same state and I didn't sleep for hours even if I had a long day. There was great awareness and I could sense every action my little son was doing next to me. I got the impression that I was beaming out something positive. My son came really close to me because I thought he was feeling very peaceful next to me. Usually, he sticks to his mother.

[Guish]

It may indeed seem like some kind of energy attack on you or possibly some kind of ET or supernatural visit. Don't feel threatened or concerned. Actually all it means is you're in a space of heightened (positive) energy.

These days I welcome the buzzing field, because if I don't resist it it recharges me physically, so that my body requires little or no sleep that night.

Something similar happens to me usually after 40 minutes into a session (assuming that I've detached from thoughts enough that day). Once it passes I feel very refreshed and cleared out. It can indeed be frightening though if someone isn't used to it or is paranoid in regards to non-physical/non-human beings. IMO many people really shouldn't be diving into deep practices unless under a teacher's guidance or before reaching a good point of maturity themselves.


Hi Enishi,

You are very right. Things shouldn't be forced and things should occur on their own when our consciousness changes. It's very dangerous when you see people trying to force out a Kundalini experience by doing certain meditation practices. These experiences are just effects of higher awareness. They shouldn't become the reason for meditation or spiritual practice.

[TraineeHuman]

At one point in this thread, Cristian quoted from a recent Sufi book called Annihilation. I appreciate that the Sufi schools do claim that the ego needs to be unsparingly annihilated. What they mean here, however, is that not just the ego but the very notion of self -- any notion of self or individuality -- is illusory, and that we must therefore learn to act as if no selves have ever existed -- including "our own"! That's because only the One exists, in any sense of "existence". So the Sufis' position claims.

I see this position as a misleading and false one. That's because although I agree that the Many -- as in all conscious beings -- are ultimately the One, I also claim, rather paradoxically, that there's no such thing as the One unless you can at the same time see the Many. You might tell me the One is totally beyond all distinctions and all words. Fine. But I then have to point out that in that case the One can't ever even know that it's the One, not without having the Many as well. If there's no difference between the One and the Many, the One then becomes something very, very different from what we, in the land of multiplicity, can ever begin to conceive or experience it to be.

So it is that I insist that the ego doesn't quite need to be annihilated and wiped off the face of the earth before one can proceed to a state of permanent or near-permanent presence of the Higher Mind and one can begin to surrender to the Divine Will. On the other hand, it's true that the ego does need to be brought to heel rather like a dog being trained to be obedient. Its ignorant ways of behaving and its obsession with desires do need to be thoroughly exposed as in need of being altogether replaced by better things.

And certainly, at first we don't exactly know what to replace the ego with. All we know is that we need something much better. So for some time we get by with the best replacement our lights lead us to. We stay one-pointedly faithful to that. That's perfectly fine. Generally we seek to stay true to some principle -- usually of contributing to the good of others in some ways. Which is admirable.

The one thing we need to watch out for here, though, is letting desire back in, as with desire the ego comes back.

We should particularly be watchful for any desire we may have to be attached to the results or outcomes or impact of our good behavior. As long as we ever desire satisfaction or fulfilment -- and in particular satisfaction at how we're making a difference for the better -- we will still be doing it for the ego. That's how subtle the ego is. The ego needs to be permanently rejected -- and all "fulfilment" along with it. If you can but truly, accurately look inside, you're already full of joy and completeness inside. (Feeling the aliveness. Post #114.)

Nothing outside of you can fulfil you. Rather, you are the spark of Divinity, of infinity, and it is you that graces and fulfills your environment with your presence, and not vice-versa. To leave the ego behind, you have to have a strong and real sense of your dignity and greatness as an already complete and infinite being. You have to in one sense outdo the ego in having a "swollen head", only the "swollen" size is the normal size for who you truly are.

[Guish]

Hi TH,

What would be the characteristics of "the one"?

Unconditional love
Compassion
Actions contributing to a bigger cause

If we do go beyond the ego, there would be many ways of expressing the above. That'd give the the image of many but ultimately being/expressing the one. Am I misleading?

[TraineeHuman]

,

What would be the characteristics of "the one"?


The One is the same "thing" as Source.

Just one of the problems of answering your question would be that maybe usually our perception and cognition would be superficial, and hence might greatly misperceive Source if it perceives or understands Source at all at such a moment. And we also might grossly misdescribe Source, or fail to do it justice, regardless of how fine (and yet still feeble) the words used might be.

To talk about Source probably also involves reference to the Unknowable in some way, for instance. It's a slippery topic.

Do you have an inward awareness of Source itself at the time when outwardly you are acting in a way that may have a powerful influence for the good, at least in the small locality you are in? That's a question which only you can answer at any given time. It's possible, but rare.

[Guish]

,

What would be the characteristics of "the one"?


The One is the same "thing" as Source.

Just one of the problems of answering your question would be that maybe usually our perception and cognition would be superficial, and hence might greatly misperceive Source if it perceives or understands Source at all at such a moment. And we also might grossly misdescribe Source, or fail to do it justice, regardless of how fine (and yet still feeble) the words used might be.

To talk about Source probably also involves reference to the Unknowable in some way, for instance. It's a slippery topic.

Do you have an inward awareness of Source itself at the time when outwardly you are acting in a way that may have a powerful influence for the good, at least in the small locality you are in? That's a question which only you can answer at any given time. It's possible, but rare.

Hi brother,

I shared a few experiences with you already. I know that I act from another level of awareness at times. I'm in a deep state of bliss while performing certain actions. In hell like situations, people have observed that I have a very calming effect on them. In the last two months, one person changed drastically after talking to me. I'm talking about a very aggressive person who literally gave herself to me. I find this quite dangerous but an inner thing guides most of my actions. I don't think. Things just happen. Spontaneous thoughts and spontaneous actions. I can't really describe me. Maybe, that's what it means losing your ego. The mental noise appears at times but is weak. The ego is transcended but weak.

[TraineeHuman]

When I said: "only you can answer at any given time" whether you "have an inward awareness of Source itself at the time when outwardly you are acting in a way that may have a powerful influence for the good", I didn't mean "you" as In Guish. I just meant "you" as in anyone.

However, whenever one takes something personally or gets personally offended, I believe that's an example of falling under the ego's control at that time.

[Guish]

The ability to see a hidden self under the false conditioning or gestures of people may be the way of recognising the same source that lights oneself in others. The person is not left to experience anything. This is why people who are tuned to their self are less reactive to external things.

[TraineeHuman]

The ability to see a hidden self under the false conditioning or gestures of people may be the way of recognising the same source that lights oneself in others. The person is not left to experience anything. This is why people who are tuned to their self are less reactive to external things.

Source is infinite. The ego at every moment believes and implies that our consciousness is limited in every way. But if we can but know ourselves extensively enough, we discover that who we are is infinite. Lift the veil (or enough of the veils) of ignorance of who we truly are, and all imperfection starts to disappear.

And so if we can be "nothing" in the world of ego, then the ultimately unlimited part of us, which is not nothing either, becomes free to operate.

[Guish]

And so if we can be "nothing" in the world of ego, then the ultimately unlimited part of us, which is not nothing either, becomes free to operate.


I think this is a crucial truth for spiritual seekers. The ego tries to scare us while we try to transcend it. Ultimately, we end up knowing that most of the things we considered real were fake. This can be depressing. However, the self gives hints of another reality along the way. Hence, understanding spirituality intellectually is useless. One has to become the path one preaches. As yoga nanda says, God is the other thing we long for. Once we know it, we won't need any other thing.

[Finefeather]

Source is infinite.
TH I know that many people use these words and statements like this so please do not see this as a personal attack on you...I am merely using this as a subject for my post.

I have considered the words “source” and “infinity” many many times...and have come to the conclusion that they both are relative and can logically have very different meanings for different people.

This fact...and I will explain why...would, by common sense, imply that we are probably using wrong terminology to describe or present some phenomena which very very few people have any idea about at all...let alone being able to understand what different people are trying to imply or describe by using them.

Lets take each word separately:

The word “infinity”... logically... can only be used if and when some distance, or maybe concept, is beyond the comprehension of a human's mental, or our technological abilities. This does not mean that what humans 'believe' is infinity does not in fact have a boundary or an ending or a size. Our current technology can 'see' far more than we can...even far beyond our solar system… and they have not yet discovered any boundaries... but just because we currently have limitations does not mean that our Cosmos does not have boundaries.

So it is my view that our use of this word has no sound conclusion or meaning, and is merely a word which we use because we do not know any better...or...because we have just not grown enough in consciousness yet to truly find out the answer to it.

To some 1 billion would seem like infinity if we had to walk that distance. :)

The word “source” is virtually identical to “infinity”...and we could easily replace the word “source” with “infinity” because we just don't know.

We could...for example...say “The Infinite Being from which we come” and it might convey the same meaning to even those who use the word “God”.

The word “source” is just the same as when we say “the source of this river is on top of that mountain” .

Now what we have done is improvised... using our limited logic... and have come up with the notion that because life is like we think it is that there must be some place or thing from which life stems...and so the best word we can come up with is “source”.

But neither science nor any philosophy has ever proved this for us...so in taking the lead...some of us in the 'spiritual' world have just decided to use this word...when in fact they have no idea whatsoever of what they are even talking about...simply because they cannot comprehend what this “source” is which they refer to all the time.

So it is my view that the use of the word “source” in 'spiritual' parlance has no sound conclusion...or meaning... and is merely a word which we use because we do not know any better.

There is also other ways we could use the word “source” which would IMO be a more precise idea of the truth of who we really are...but that could be another long post if necessary.

So what am I attempting to give out?

We are too caught up with associating our lives with an aspect of life which is far beyond our reach at this stage of our consciousness evolution...we seem to think that by uttering words like “source” in our conversations that others will get the impression that we are close to the top of the answer to life...this is a grave mistake...because all humans are far from knowing reality as it actually is...we can only begin to see a glimmer of this reality when we are at the fringe of causal consciousness...and so we are wasting our time grasping at concepts which are far above our ability to understand.

Stop letting the ego convince us that we are so advanced...we are not...

We have also filled our minds with writings from many religions, philosophies, gurus, yogis, occultists, meta-physicians and all manner of persons who believe they have reached some high level of 'spiritual' achievement...when in fact most of them are far from the real goal...which is unity and unconditional love...which can only truly be understood by consciousness growth...and consciousness growth is a process that does not involve filling our memories with every bit of knowledge we can find...it is a refinement process which is dependant on our attitudes and how we treat our fellow humans.

Most cannot even treat everyone with unconditional love yet and they want to think they are advanced...

My Love to all
Ray

[TraineeHuman]

Ray, you say that science and philosophy have no understanding of infinity. However, most of pure mathematics is simply about the study of the properties of infinities of many different kinds. For instance, a straight line contains an infinite number of points. And even any section of it also contains an infinity of points. I appreciate that for most mathematicians it's just conceptual, that for most of them it's maybe just ultimately meaningless marks on paper or meaningless conceptual patterns or toys. But that doesn't mean infinities aren't real, for those with "eyes" to "see". I suspect that for mathematicians such as Descartes and Leibniz and Gauss and Newton, who between them initiated much of the beginnings of pure mathematics, and its esoteric significance, infinities were very real and felt and experienced.

Concepts can point to things, to levels of reality, far beyond the conceptual level. It comes down to whether one has actually experienced such higher levels, at least briefly, and then learnt to bring something from them into one's life, and how extensively, and how well. I expect readers to see the meaning behind what I write about, and that often lies far beyond the conceptual level or the words themselves. I would also challenge readers to directly experience infinities, at some point, even if maybe it's only in the future. If they don't "see" any infinity as yet, then my words are intended to challenge them, or point in a good direction for them to look at going.

Discussion is only useful when one is seeking to significantly change or re-develop one's view about something. I don't have any interest in a discussion about whether, say, I've actually experienced infinities. That would be a waste of time for me.

For some, including myself and Guish and many others, seeing the higher significance truly and actually present in the mundane is the very essence of "mystical" experience and of all spiritual living -- even if it often doesn't get perfectly realized in detail right now in the way one lives. "Seeing a world in a grain of sand ..., and eternity in an hour" isn't just a metaphor, if indeed it was intended as a metaphor at all. So, I would disagree with you, Ray, by saying that much of our spiritual advancement does come from knowledge of the right kind -- but it does have to be right knowledge. Make that the right knowing in each moment, if you like. It's not a matter of filling oneself with information or concepts, of course. We do need knowledge -- and thought -- to guide our development and to assist in controlling and transforming our nature. How very strange, though, to hear a Western proponent of esotericism criticizing Eastern mysticism for its emphasis on thought or idealism, when it has always been the East that has emphasized the spirit while Western culture, including Western esoteric teaching, has always hugely emphasized the conceptual and the emotional and the material at the expense of spirit. I guess the notion that people are stuck in levels that fall short of spirit may then become a self-fulfilling prophecy for at least some Western esotericists.

And genuine self-esteem is also absolutely essential. (How can anyone claim to love others if they don't love themselves?)

On the other hand, the process of learning to practically apply the implications of such realities is an ongoing and seemingly endless one. Ideals such as "you [sic] must have unconditional love" do need to made practical and more explicit and precise before they really mean anything. To that extent I certainly agree with you.

[greybeard]

Ray you certainly bring interesting topics for discussion.
Now what I post here is not necessarily true.
Normally truth requires a context to make sense of it--to give it meaning.
I dont think it possible to give a valid context in this case.
I accept that what you say may be so.

As you know, I come from a belief in the "pointing" of the likes of Ramana Maharshi who said that there was neither creation nor dissolution,
others say that I am in the universe and the universe is within me.
I am form,formless, both and neither.
It is also said that due to the heavy density of this world the human body can only accept a certain level of spiritual energy, any more and it would "fry".
That what is achievable here is seen as kindergarten to higher levels of spiritual evolution.

There are many paradoxes in the available spiritual "teachings"

I am, to a degree, accepting teachings that are available from those who seem to me to have gone as far as is possible in this world.
Im taking some one else’s word for this.
You seem to be taking others word for your belief too.

Nasargadatta said that it is not possible for the unenlightened to have unconditional love and I see this to be so, as there is always an agenda in human love but its as best we can do.
So this post is as best as I can do, this does not make it true.
As long as there is a me, then anything I can post is influenced by ego to a greater or lesser degree.
I dont claim to know anything for sure.

With love and respect
Chris

[Finefeather]

For instance, a straight line contains an infinite number of points. And even any section of it also contains an infinity of points.
Yes well TH you said this not me...:)

This kind of proves that infinity is a relative concept...it is relative in the example you gave because it depends on the size of the point.

If there were an infinite number of points in a straight line... then in your example there would have to be more than an infinite amount of points if there is to be an infinite amount of points in any section of it...all at the same time.!

I wonder what we could call that? :)

Ray

[greybeard]

Language is limiting.
It may be that with each improvement in microscopes smaller and smaller particles are found.
I have seen infinity described as having no beginning and no end--it can not be measured.
Humans being rational want a beginning and end to everything.
We limit God to our understanding and concepts.
The enlightened sages say that we are eternal---the soul has no beginning or end.
We were never born and never die--the body is a different story--name and body are transient--the in-dweller is not.

All I can point to is awareness--that is constant and unchanging--it is prior to everything, everything comes into awareness.
Awareness is eternal and that is what the sages say we are--you cant measure it --it just is.
It is self aware it does not need subject or object
That's why sages speak of Self-Realisation--the Self is not personal.
There after anything further said is open to misunderstanding due to linguistics--word definition.
Think we can all agree we exist and are aware we exist--that's it.
Not complex.

Love Chris

[Guish]

For instance, a straight line contains an infinite number of points. And even any section of it also contains an infinity of points.
Yes well TH you said this not me...:)

This kind of proves that infinity is a relative concept...it is relative in the example you gave because it depends on the size of the point.

If there were an infinite number of points in a straight line... then in your example there would have to be more than an infinite amount of points if there is to be an infinite amount of points in any section of it...all at the same time.!

I wonder what we could call that? :)



Infinity is a concept and one can't put a number attached to it. Yet, through Mathematics, we can see its importance. Even spirituality can't be quantified but we know it's truth through direct experience. If one looks at a geometric series, under certain cases, the sum to infinity can be calculated. In essence things are infinite but one does have a finite form. Let's consider a human being. In essence, the body is finite because of its limitations. Yet, the soul isn't. At Uni, I worked with nominal logistic regressions, causality of an event would depend on 30 parameters with overlapping between the parameters. Yet the model is limited. This proves interconnected ness and infinity of determinants for causality of an event. I'll come back on this when I'm free.

[TraineeHuman]

Ray, you apparently believe it's "obvious" that there is only one kind of infinity, and that it's totally identical to Source. Unfortunately, that view isn't shared by any mathematicians, nor by any philosophers, past or present, as far as I know.

You might like to briefly consider Spinoza's philosophy, or, better still, the philosophy of Absolutes of the late but well-known twentieth century Yale philosopher J.N. Findlay (e.g. his book Ascent to the Absolute). The most fundamental property of an Absolute (or, indeed, of Source, or of any of the abstract items that all mathematicians recognize as an infinite number) is that if you add anything to it you don't get something "more than" that Absolute. You just still get that Absolute, with the additional item fully absorbed into it. (So the Absolute, or the infinity, doesn't somehow become "more than infinite" -- if, indeed, such a concept wasn't totally meaningless anyway, as you seem to appreciate.)

[Guish]

Many Mathematicians still argue that infinity was created because of the limited human perception and infinity doesn't exist. However, we can appreciate fractals which are made up of an infinite number of fractals produced by a recursive equation. Fractals do exist in nature and in us. I found a nice link for you guys.
http://www.wired.com/2010/09/fractal-patterns-in-nature/

If we experience this without our senses, in a meditative state, did we never experience vastness and limitless like described by Mathematicians. If our lungs are fractals,are we not infinite deep inside?

[greybeard]

I remember years ago Nasim Haramein and Gregg Braden separately talking about fractals.
Basically if the pattern is loaded in to a computer, then the fractal is magnified on and on, the same pattern will come up endlessly till the PC breaks down.
We are programmed to think of limitations.
Those who have experienced OBE and I haven't, are probably more likely to realise that there are no limitations. You can go where ever the mind takes you.
Potential is unlimited.

There was a song with the words "You are everywhere and no where baby, that's where its at"
Just maybe the composer knew what he was saying.

So much we don know and conversely so much we really dont need to know.
All that is really needed is the answer to the famous questions "Who am i?" Ramanas self enquiry question.

The answer surprises--"There is no I"

Chris

[Guish]

Ray brought forward some very important points- Unconditional love and the importance of spirituality in one's reality through actions. People are often caught in the intellectual debate. I'll leave you with this.

On the day of his enlightenment, in front of the lecture hall, Tokusan burned to ashes his commentaries on the sutras. He said: “However abstruse the teachings are, in comparison with this enlightenment they are like a single hair to the great sky. However profound the complicated knowledge of the world, compared to this enlightenment it is like one drop of water to the great ocean.” Then he left the monastery.

- The Gateless Gate

[Finefeather]

Ray, you apparently believe it's "obvious" that there is only one kind of infinity, and that it's totally identical to Source. Unfortunately, that view isn't shared by any mathematicians, nor by any philosophers, past or present, as far as I know.

You might like to briefly consider Spinoza's philosophy, or, better still, the philosophy of Absolutes of the late but well-known twentieth century Yale philosopher J.N. Findlay (e.g. his book Ascent to the Absolute). The most fundamental property of an Absolute (or, indeed, of Source, or of any of the abstract items that all mathematicians recognize as an infinite number) is that if you add anything to it you don't get something "more than" that Absolute. You just still get that Absolute, with the additional item fully absorbed into it. (So the Absolute, or the infinity, doesn't somehow become "more than infinite" -- if, indeed, such a concept wasn't totally meaningless anyway, as you seem to appreciate.)
I am more than aware of the concept of infinity...but one thing is common in all fields... and that is that it has no objective value...and this is my point.

The fact is that no matter how mathematicians try to outdo each other with theories...not one of them have ever solved the problem...simply because it is not a mathematical problem...it is a consciousness problem.

There are also many ways in which this word is used generally in conversation...and in each case it supposes some large subjective idea which either tells us that we have a long way to go or to instill the idea that we could never reach some 'goal'... this is a consciousness restriction because some can 'see' further than others...even in the human kingdom.

The very idea of this word means that no one will ever get to realise whatever it is been associated with and that includes this thing which is been called "source".

There is not one philosophy on this planet that comes close to understanding what infinity is... and in their supposed wisdom... and real ignorance of their idea of some creator of everything... it is supposed that "source" must be infinite.

It is quite obvious... to me... that we are grasping at straws...simply because our consciousness will never be able to get past 'infinity'... simply because the very meaning of 'infinity'... in any way we want to look at it...has no end realization.

Humans have reached the end of their tether in trying to understand what infinity is...simply because, firstly, they do not have the mind to understand it...and , secondly, because of their restricted consciousness...they just assume that things must go on forever...an idea which is impossible for humans to comprehend... yet they think they know so much about it.

Most humans...and I include all those who think they are enlightened... have this over inflated egotistical notion that they can understand everything...and this is clear when they attempt to explain something which is so far out of their reach...like infinity.

Humans have come a long way in their consciousness growth since their consciousness was first activated...but most have billions of years to go before they would even begin to realise the truth of our small Cosmos...never mind the vastness of it all.

And...here is the biggest problem of them all... Very very few humans even know who and what they are... yet they want to come to all sorts of conclusions and make all sorts of supposedly wise statements.

Do you know who you really are? probably not... how would you then even begin to understand what infinity is?

Ray

[Finefeather]

Those who have experienced OBE and I haven't, are probably more likely to realise that there are no limitations. You can go where ever the mind takes you.
Potential is unlimited.
Chris in actual fact my experience of OBE does not in any way confirm this.

I have said in another post somewhere that both in Meditation or OBE no one can go beyond the 'boundaries' of their individual consciousness.

This is one of the reasons why I personally do not recommend OB for the average person...without an expert as a guide... because it often leads to an experience which they might not easily deal with because of the level or world they might end up in.


All that is really needed is the answer to the famous questions "Who am i?" Ramanas self enquiry question.

The answer surprises--"There is no I"

If you are referring to Ramana Maharsh...because I do not know a Ramanas...and even if you were not...this answer by many Yogis... who consider themselves enlightened... just should lead you to the next question..."What is I?"

This "I" they often mention is simply the ego and should not be confused with the idea that if "There is no I" then there is no Self.

The fact that we are able, at times, to 'talk' to this "I"...as. for example...when we might be renouncing something which we ("I") did and we now take a dim view of our "I's" action...must surely tell us that there is something deeper inside us which, when able to come forth and control this "I", is the the true Self...waiting in the back ground when we are ready to give it a chance.

With love
Ray

[greybeard]

Hi Ray
I is like a personal pronoun.
again it just a word attempting to describe.
A more accurate description perhaps is "I am" but without the I what remains is "am"---am exists without I or any personal identification, concepts, or description. It can not be described, only alluded to
Yes the I is still ego due to personal identification.

Ramana Maharshi is well worth investigation as it was in his teens that spontaneous enlightenment happened.
His story is very impressive--he was silent for years in a state of bliss.
If some one had not fed him he would have died.
Virtually every enlightened person I have read mentions Ramana with respect.
He would bi locate rarely, not by any intention, the people who saw him did not know of him but they were looking for spiritual guidance.
Ramana was not aware of the bi location. later they would meet him and realise that was the one they saw.

Yes the True Self is waiting in the background ready to reveal it Self when it does there is no ego left--that's called Self realisation another word for enlightenment Ray.
Dr Hawkins said that only God walks through the final door--he maintained there are levels of enlightenment and detailed this fully in the book "Power vs Force"

Ray our definitions of enlightenment may well be different but I have been reading, listening daily for some thirty years and as best I can tell there are enlightened beings on this earth.
There always has been, to say that Christ and the Buddha, to name but two, were not enlightened does not seem to be true to me.

I posted this else where recently but it kind of sums up where I am coming from
(God) alone is real, the universe is unreal, the individual soul (Jiva or Atman) is no other than the Universal Soul (Brahman)".
This is actually what all Indian yogis like Swami Vivekananda try to remind us again and again: "There is no you or me; all variety
is merged into the absolute unity, the one infinite existence -- God".

Brahman is one, without a second.
Brahman is the supreme knowledge
That absolute reality is the essence of what you really are
You are divine, that is the truth.
You and the Absolute are one.
You and the eternal are one.
You are not the individual, the particular, the temporary.
Feel this. Know this. Act in conformity with this."


With love
Chris

[Guish]

The ego is what people think they are- name, caste, emotions, nationality, beliefs
The true self is in the background
The soul who still is in the karmic wheel is in the background as well and carries an identity with it.
We can get out of the karmic cycle if we clean all our senses and actions and also pay our karmic debts. It took Buddha many noble lives to reach enlightenment. There's no debate whether Buddha was enlightened. Even Ray won't debate this. I have only seen a few ignorant people claiming Buddha is in hell because he didn't believe in God. Please correct me if anyone thinks I got anything wrong.

[TraineeHuman]

Please correct me if anyone thinks I got anything wrong.

Well, maybe incomplete. That's an accurate and very good definition of the ego. Not sure whether I'd fully agree with how you see the soul.

"I" happen to know the real Self does exist, and yes, it's a timeless "Am", or "Is", if you like.

Throughout this thread I have emphasized, and a number of times taken pains to describe, how the ego is quite distinct from the soul or Higher Mind, which is the highest expression of separate "I-ness" possible. (That's not for you, Guish, but evidently some others would seem to include the soul as part of "the ego".)

The Higher Mind in turn is certainly something different from the real Self, of course, as I have also emphasized and tried to explain ever so many times.

However, language gets stretched beyond its normal limits here. To give just one example, you could say the true Self is a supreme type of Person, but that Person is utterly impersonal in the "normal" sense.

Another of various points I might make is that all meaning is partly determined by the concrete context in which it's expressed. Thus if you, in your individual body and partly if not entirely with your separative mind, make a statement about, say, the real Self, then you aren't magically transported to some "pure land" of true Self, but any mention of such a Self is relative to and embedded in the separative and limited context you are in.

[Finefeather]

Ray our definitions of enlightenment may well be different but I have been reading, listening daily for some thirty years and as best I can tell there are enlightened beings on this earth.
There always has been, to say that Christ and the Buddha, to name but two, were not enlightened does not seem to be true to me.

I see you have not paid much attention to what I have posted many times on this forum :) and I cannot repeat everything every time I write a post...but here are a few cases where you will notice that what you are suggesting is incorrect.


Many followers of Indian philosophy believe that Yogis and so called Masters have reached the pinnacle of spiritual development...but this is far from the case...none have even ever reached true Nirvana as did the Buddha...because of misinterpretation of his writings.



All humans should go and pat themselves on the back for the amazing level they have reached in consciousness...and yet it is almost insignificant in the overall vast Cosmic world...and then we have those who think that they are so advanced when they think they have reached some enlightened state...when in fact they are far from even the “Nirvana”...which the Buddha achieved.



And that is the reason for thousands of incarnations... as we 'pay' for all our errors... and become the beautiful Being who will one day achieve the refinement to move into the world(kingdom) of unity and unconditional love.

This kingdom is what Buddha and Christ came to inform us about...

When I talk of Indian Philosophers and Yogis not having achieved enlightenment I do not include Buddha and Christ because these are the only two who have achieved true enlightenment.

True enlightenment as in Nirvana is achieving consciousness in the superessential world and no Yogi including Ramana Maharshi has reached that level. The best they have reached is the Causal world...which they confuse with Nirvana...and the causal world is 2 worlds below that of the superessential world.

I am not saying that some Yogis do not utter some profound and beautiful words of wisdom...and I am certainly saying that some Yogis are far more advanced than most western teaching….but there are also many people... even on this forum...who utter beautiful words of wisdom...it just depends what level of information satisfies our seeking.


The .nirvana. of the yoga philosophers is at best the causal world, in which they lose their
consciousness. The yoga philosophers deal with their own imaginative constructions which have
no correspondences in reality. The yogis have misunderstood Patanjali.s Sutras completely. They
read their own findings and experiences into his account, which was intended for initiates. And
the result is just one great delusion.


And Chris it makes no difference how many years we have spent in a life reading what others say...what counts is what we know inside from millions of years of consciousness growth.

Take care
Ray

[greybeard]

Ray I am sorry I forgot what you said about Christ and the Buddha being enlightened--they both said that it was possible for others to do the same.
Christ said the kingdom lies within.
I think it is unlikely that only these two are/were enlightened.

I accept that reading is not enough but there have been many experiences too which have been mentioned in posts else where.

Ego remains but tamed to a degree--I don't have to be right and things are seen as "may be so."
I can identify with ACIM statement "The moment you take up a position know that you are identifying with an illusion."


We can agree to differ Ray with respect, for there is commonality in pointing to unconditional love and being One.

Much love to you
Chris

[Guish]

Christ said the kingdom lies within.
We can agree to differ Ray with respect, for there is commonality in pointing to unconditional love and being One.
Much love to you
Chris

The statement of Christ is spot on. God is outside and inside of us. There's so much emphasis on magical or supernatural events. Buddha told Ananda (his cousin and helper) that people will try to associate spirituality with the supernatural. Yet, the most magical things occur everyday. Look at the eyes of a baby, the sky and nature. These are the true magical things. Spirituality is all about Union. Today, I took the bus to go get my car from the garage. I just realised that all people look familiar. I could sit next to them and actually talk to each of them. I smiled at every baby I saw because I saw Sid (my son) in them. Unconditional love and union are the realisations. The day you care for others like you care for your own family, you'd have taken a major step as there's no separation between you and others.

[Finefeather]

I think it is unlikely that only these two are/were enlightened.

Chris there are certainly many thousands who are incarnated in this planet who are truly enlightened...but very few of these are known because their work involves unity and brotherhood and unconditional love.

These non human Selves who incarnate do not make themselves known to all...they work quietly in places most of us will not even belief...the simple person working to uplift some ideal which benefits mankind could be the most enlightened person in this planet...they walk amongst us but few see them.

Enlightenment is not about mystical experiences...anyone can train themselves to have those...like most Yogis and so called Gurus...it is about knowing why we should serve others.

We are a human collective and this means that everyone in this collective is responsible for the collective and our goal of consciousness growth is to know this and forget about our own selfish desires...and that includes nirvana.

The true enlightened person never even knew he became enlightened...so involved is he/she in his quest to serve his brothers...when we serve others we serve ourself...enlightenment follows automatically.

This constant quest to enlightenment will not be realised until we serve others.


I can identify with ACIM statement "The moment you take up a position know that you are identifying with an illusion."
Chris this statement... to me... is far from correct...because if your position comes from truth it cannot be an illusion.

Uttering a truth cannot be arrogance not an illusion.

Love to you brother
Ray

[Finefeather]

There are no humans who are truly enlightened...all truly enlightened Selves are non human...and they know that...and they are here for only one reason...and that is to serve humanity...not themselves.

[TraineeHuman]

Leaving purely theoretical musings aside for a moment, I'd like to comment on something Simon Parkes said in the course of the following video:hvN-ZmJ7ryU

He claimed that in order for us to avoid any afterlife traps, what we should do at death is strongly intend to go straight to Source; and that to "train" for this, we should practise having and holding that intention each night as we're falling asleep.

But what does it mean to want or intend to "go straight to Source"? Well, I suggest it doesn't actually involve any travel, but, rather, a different way of being, in another world yet one that is somehow right here. For, we are at, or in union with, Source whenever everything we are aware of is the Self, plus we are also aware there is definitely nothing else.

Presumably we will hugely fail, or at best nearly always fail, to achieve anything resembling this, or certainly most of us will. I'd like to ask to hear about any details any member may recall of attempting this exercise. Not theoretical comments about the exercise, but direct accounts of what happened, what seems to be one's actual experience however imperfectly remembered, particularly if something noteworthy happens.

[Guish]

TH,

Should I assume that you trust Simon?

[Finefeather]

My view on Simon Parkes is rather dire...but that is simply because he has chosen to write so much fiction in the name of truth.

In my 40 odd years of OB work...in which I have helped many to cross over to the emotional world from where they come...and not to mention my personal journeys into these afterlife worlds...I have never encountered anything that resembles a trap.

He is not even original in his writings...except for the fiction and illusion about his being the son, or related in some way to Mantris beings...who do not exist in reality...

As far as "go straight to Source"...well you know my view on "source" so I will go no further..:)

What I know for a fact based on my rescue work in the 'astral' that we go straight to the emotional/'astral' world and settle in levels there which are in accordance with our level of consciousness.

This world is very similar to the physical world and the people who are there have as many states of consciousness as we see here in the physical...there are bad guys and good guys there..

We do have a period before this which entails a life review...and maybe this has lead to wrong interpretation of this process...but it certainly is not a 'trap'

Take care
Ray

¤=[Post Update]=¤


TH,

Should I assume that you trust Simon?
Good question :)

[Guish]

Since we all respect Buddha, his talk on Nirvana will be interesting for readers.

A man is composed of six elements: solidity, fluidity, heat, motion, space and consciousness. He analyses them and finds that none of them is ‘mine’, or ‘me’ or ‘my self.’ He understands how consciousness appears and disappears, how pleasant, unpleasnt and neutral sensations appear and disappear. Through this knowledge his mind becomes detached. Then he finds within him a pure equanimity (upekha) which he can direct towards the attainment of any high spiritual state. But then he thinks:

‘If I focus this purified and cleansed equanimity on the Sphere of Infinite Space and develop a mind conforming thereto, that is a mental creation (samkhatam). If I focus this purified and cleansed equanimity on the Sphere of Infinite Consciousness, on the Sphere of Nothingness, or on the Sphere of Neither-perception nor Non-perception and develop a mind conforming thereto, that is a mental creation.’

Then he neither mentally creates nor wills continuity and becoming (bhava) or annihilations (vibhava). As he does not construct or does not will continuity and becoming or annihilation, he does not cling to anything in the world; as he does not cling, he is not anxious; as he is not anxious, he is completely calmed within (fully blown out within paccattam yeva parinibhayati). And he knows:

‘Finished is birth, lived is pure life, what should be done is done, nothing more is left to be done.’ (This expression means that now he is an Arahant).

Now when he experiences a pleasant, unpleasant or neutral sensation, he knows that it is impermanent, that it does not bind him, that it is not experienced with passion. Whatever may be the sensation, he experiences it without being bound to it (visamyutto).

‘Therefore, O bhikkhu, a person so endowed is endowed with the absolute wisdom, for the knowledge of the extinction of all dukkha is the absolute noble wisdom.
This his deliverance, founded on Truth, is unshakable. O Bhikkhu, that which is unreality (mosadhamma) is false; that which is reality (amosadhamma) is Nibbana, is Truth (Sacca). Therefore O Bhikkhu, a person so endowed is endowed with this Absolute Truth. For, the Absolute Truth (paramam ariyasaccam) is Nibbana, which is Reality.’
(Buddha, from the Dhatuvibhanga-sutta (No. 140) of the Majjhima-nikaya) (Rahula, p38-9)

[Finefeather]

There are many interpretations of Nirvana in Buddhism...I like this...for a particular reason...because it seems to be closer to esoteric writings... and if it is possible for anyone to accept this...Buddha was a member of the planetary hierarchy...as well as Christ.


Nirvana is the most misunderstood term in Buddhism.

Those in the West recognise the term as meaning Heaven, or a Heaven on Earth, or perhaps a famous rock band.

The Buddha described Nirvana as the ultimate goal, and he reached that state during his enlightenment. At this point, he chose to teach others so that they might also experience this realisation, and so when he died, forty-five years later, he then passed through pari nirvana, meaning completed nirvana.

Nirvana literally means extinguishing or unbinding. The implication is that it is freedom from what ever binds you, from the burning passion of desire, jealousy, and ignorance. Once these are totally overcome, a state of bliss is achieved, and there is no longer the need the cycle of birth and death. All karmic debts are settled.

The Buddha refused to be drawn on what occurred then, but implied that it was beyond word and without boundaries. Certainly, he saw it in a much different state than our current existence, and not a simple parallel to the process of individual rebirth.
http://www.buddha101.com/p_nirvana_frames.htm

Here we can see the literal meaning of 'Nirvana'...which is extinguishing or unbinding.

This extinguishing or unbinding in my view is easily achieved if we concentrate our lives on service to humanity...which gives us little time to spend on our egos desires etc.

But we should not forget that each of us has a rich past of wrong doing or bad sowing...which we also need to sort out...because no one can reach the state of Nirvana...which is simply a consciousness level...without purifying our lower consciousness levels.

We cannot enter higher kingdoms until we have mastered the one we're in...is a fact of life...this is the very meaning of what Christ meant when he said...”Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Buddha was and still is an advanced non human who incarnated into a human body and it took him a long time to refine his envelopes...so cluttered and dense can a new human body be... before we could choose to seek remembrance anew... which would allow him to gain back the high knowledge he naturally has.

Love to all
Ray

[TraineeHuman]

In my 40 odd years of OB work...in which I have helped many to cross over to the emotional world from where they come...and not to mention my personal journeys into these afterlife worlds...I have never encountered anything that resembles a trap.

...

What I know for a fact based on my rescue work in the 'astral' that we go straight to the emotional/'astral' world and settle in levels there which are in accordance with our level of consciousness.

This world is very similar to the physical world and the people who are there have as many states of consciousness as we see here in the physical...there are bad guys and good guys there..

We do have a period before this which entails a life review...and maybe this has lead to wrong interpretation of this process...but it certainly is not a 'trap'



I believe you're certainly quite right that everyone, or virtually everyone, goes to some level of the astral worlds immediately after their death, Ray. However, as soon as they've shed their astral sheath they move into the mental. And as soon as they've shed their mental sheath they move on again, I believe. I also agree that there has been a huge amount of unfounded paranoia on the Forum regarding getting trapped in the afterlife and "recycled", when in reality after death everyone has greater freedom and sovereignty than while they were in the physical.

However, I've been trying out the exercise Simon suggested when I'm falling asleep, amd have found it interesting so far.

As far as nirvana goes, surely that's just the beginning of the true spiritual life. It's not the apex.

[TraineeHuman]

TH,

Should I assume that you trust Simon?

I don't think Simon is a disinfo agent, by any stretch. I do believe he's trying to put together as accurate a picture as possible based on his own sources and experiences. By the way, presumably the "Mantids" are the Ant Beings.

[Finefeather]

However, as soon as they've shed their astral sheath they move into the mental. And as soon as they've shed their mental sheath they move on again, I believe.
Yes we do move to the mental world but this is only after quite a few earth years...as much as 40-60 depending on the refinement of our emotional consciousness...then we 'die' to that world as well.

Some people...and I have...have experienced an awakening in their dream...they dream that they are asleep in the dream...and then wake up, but they have not actually woken up yet in the physical...this is because we 'sleep' in the 'astral' when we go to the mental world during physical sleep and so we need to wake up in reverse order.

In the mental world this is often shorter because most of the humans do not have high levels of mental consciousness yet.

Some more advanced humans can move virtually immediately to the mental world.

After that most people who die and especially the humans go into a period of pralaya...depending on how soon they can find a suitable set of parents to reincarnate with.

Only causal Selves and higher are able to spend time doing some 'site seeing' after the mental world period.

We cannot go into higher worlds if we do not have the consciousness of higher worlds activated.

Love to all
Ray

[Carmody]

TH,

Should I assume that you trust Simon?

I trust people as far as they can throw themselves.

[Finefeather]

TH,

Should I assume that you trust Simon?

I trust people as far as they can throw themselves.
Those who throw themselves off the empire state building will naturally be trustworthy after they hit the ground ...no more lies and fiction books to read...:)

[Chris Gilbert]

I am not saying that some Yogis do not utter some profound and beautiful words of wisdom...and I am certainly saying that some Yogis are far more advanced than most western teaching….but there are also many people... even on this forum...who utter beautiful words of wisdom...it just depends what level of information satisfies our seeking.


Valuable insights do indeed come through when one is inundated with higher level energy, whether through spontaneous awakenings or practice in the current lifetime. It's definitely not the same as fully integrating those energies and realizations into the mind/body however. The recently deceased teacher Nan Huai Chin was said to be enlightened according to several Buddhist sects, but even he had purportedly not yet overcome his smoking habit.

I think due to anxiety about wanting to finally reach 'the summit', attain enlightenment/immortality and leave this vale of tears behind people are quick to jump to the conclusion that their attainment is final. According to my own teacher however, "there are always higher levels".

[TraineeHuman]

Some more advanced humans can move virtually immediately to the mental world.

That's why it's so important to attain something close to freedom from unhappiness before one dies.


Only causal Selves and higher are able to spend time doing some 'site seeing' after the mental world period.

We cannot go into higher worlds if we do not have the consciousness of higher worlds activated.


That's why I believe it's important to learn to live with the "lost" state that comes with loosening one's ties to some of one's identities.

[Finefeather]

TH,

Should I assume that you trust Simon?

I don't think Simon is a disinfo agent, by any stretch. I do believe he's trying to put together as accurate a picture as possible based on his own sources and experiences. By the way, presumably the "Mantids" are the Ant Beings.
Can you elaborate on this please...and who are the "Ant Beings"?

[TraineeHuman]

TH,

Should I assume that you trust Simon?

I don't think Simon is a disinfo agent, by any stretch. I do believe he's trying to put together as accurate a picture as possible based on his own sources and experiences. By the way, presumably the "Mantids" are the Ant Beings.
Can you elaborate on this please...and who are the "Ant Beings"?

As far as "Mantids" go, in my childhood I used to look at preying mantises and felt convinced they looked very much like an intelligent life form I seemed to remember from somewhere. For that reason I find it plausible that they would exist, though as far as I know I haven't encountered any myself (in this lifetime). When I was about eight I remember spending about half an hour trying to remember what the big deal about preying mantises was, but all I could get was that beings who looked like that should be respected, maybe even feared, because of their power. And yet the preying mantises were so tiny, even when I looked at them from very up close, and my cat would have no trouble disposing of one when he caught it.

As far as "Ascension" goes, I don't believe that can happen on a group rather than an individual scale. Also, Simon's claim that the twelve strands of DNA in humans are reconnecting sounds quite ridiculous and I don't consider that's what could bring about individual ascension (i.e. spiritual evolution). I do agree with Simon, though, that a huge change for the better seems to have occurred in the astral, plus some kind of huge "injection" of something positive from much higher levels, around the 21st of December 2012. I suspect it may take at least a few decades before humanity can go into a golden age, though.

As far as Simon's many "insider" comments regarding the political scene go, some of them seem to make sense and help explain some things, though no doubt he is also being deliberately fed some BS as well.

[Kirkland_Ta]

Hello TraineeHuman,

I am a new member of this forum and the first thread that really interested me a lot is this thread of yours, and I am very happy to find it.
First I would like to say sorry for my bad English first, since English is not my 'native' language.

I have read through the first 3 pages and found out many helpful information regarding explanation of different dimensions, how to deal with fears, and many practical exercises to help you. I have many questions to ask you but I am not sure if those questions were already asked, so please tell me if it has already been answered, I would carefully read all the posts to find the answer, I do not want to bother you of repeating the information you have already shared with us. :)

I have spontaneously experienced sleep paralysis some years ago. At that time I did not know what that was so I got very freaked out, then after some years I researched and decided to try meditation. The teacher had shown me some great tools in working with energy, how to run energy, healing and also psychic protection - this was in 2013. After some practices I had experienced some interesting 'thing' that I would call it lucid dreaming, however the thing I always really want to try is not lucid dreaming but OBE. Moreover, there were some very frightful dreams I had encountered back then, there was one dream in which I was surrounded by all kinds of ghosts, demons, devils, all things horror that you could imagine of - I think those things came from my mind.

I do not know since when I have become so frightful of the deep ocean and of ghosts, scary and startle things. It may stem from some of the 'dreams' I remembered when I was a child. At around 4-5 years old, I saw a female figure outside of the window of my bedroom (at that time I was still sleeping together with Dad and Mom). There was only window half the way up, half the way down was rest of the door. So I could only see her half body up. I could not remember the face. All I remember is a blank face. She was looking at me, calling my name, waving at me and then she told me to "follow me". She said "follow me, b.n. (my nickname)" , "follow me, b.n." , etc. etc. Honestly I really wanted to 'follow her' in case she would give me candy or whatever... but for odd reason I still did not know why, I turned my back against her and decided to go to sleep. After a while I woke up, wondering what had happened. Then later on when I was 13, 14 I encountered other ghosts - they scared me off, I became very freak out and there was a psychic giving me a stone to help guard me. From then I did not really have other significant experiences.

The above paragraph was a brief stories of some of my bad memories. There were more but you know that was why I was very scared to try OBEs. In fact most of my 'lucid dreams' I ended in some place I did not like, some place with sad colours, sad environment, and I was usually inside some types of buildings, I climbed the stairs , flied above thru the ceilings but some dreams I never could reach the sky (could never fly to the top ceilings). There was one other 'lucid dream' I encountered a shadow figure too, i felt insecure and uncomfortable, not neccesarily frighten. However I chase him away.

In all of my dreams since my childhood, flying has always been the theme. In the dream, I know that I can fly, and I do fly, and I really like to fly. But when I woke up from those flying dreams, I was sad because at those times I thought this physical dimension was real, i could not fly, i was disappointed, and i was sad.

Anyway, to sum up, the point I want to ask you is that regarding the above of my experiences, were most of them 'real' or just my imagination? For the lucid-dreaming, where are those 'dream worlds' located? Was I always travelling inside of my 'mind' and had not been 'out' yet? Of course there were other amazing dreams in which I had been shown some of my pastlives, but most of the time I saw sad scenes. And usually the 'room' when I passed the phase of sleep paralysis, and saw the 'room' around, it never was the 3D room that I was in. There were features that I knew they were not there in physical dimension. So where had I gone to? How should I deal with those kind of fears that stem back from the past days? Thank you very much and am looking forward to your answers!

Many blessings and lots of love <3

[TraineeHuman]

Dear Kirkland_Ta,

I'm going to be very busy for the next three days, but will post some comments in response to your many questions within the next week. Perhaps others would like to do the same.

I know that many people are concerned about some of the issues you've raised, so it's very good to discuss them further. Some of your childhood experiences sound a little similar to some of mine.

I'm impressed that you saw the sadness in your past lives. Most people are trapped in over all negativity for many, many lifetimes, but it's the end result of all that that counts.

[Finefeather]

Anyway, to sum up, the point I want to ask you is that regarding the above of my experiences, were most of them 'real' or just my imagination? For the lucid-dreaming, where are those 'dream worlds' located? Was I always travelling inside of my 'mind' and had not been 'out' yet? Of course there were other amazing dreams in which I had been shown some of my pastlives, but most of the time I saw sad scenes. And usually the 'room' when I passed the phase of sleep paralysis, and saw the 'room' around, it never was the 3D room that I was in. There were features that I knew they were not there in physical dimension. So where had I gone to? How should I deal with those kind of fears that stem back from the past days? Thank you very much and am looking forward to your answers!


Hi Kirkland_Ta
Welcome to Avalon and I trust you will find some answers to what you are seeking here.

As TH has given the ok I will try to answer this for you.

ALL Lucid dreams are simply our own active imagination in play and we should pay very little attention to them...other than recognize the power of imagination and what we can create in our minds.

When we sleep the average person is usually out of the body and in the emotional/mental envelopes/bodies...this allows a reversal of the the energy from out of the physical body to into the physical body...this charges our body with energy (prana) via the spleen chakra...and we usually wake up refreshed.

When we are asleep we...in our 'astral/emotional/mental bodies might go off on some journey... and this might involve some interesting things... but when we are stressed, or we are not sleeping very well, or in some kind of fear...we do not venture far from the body and sometimes we are not completely out of the body and therefore still connected to it...in this state we receive quite clear pictures and events in our physical memory of what is taking place in our emotional/mental state...and this is what is known as a lucid dream.

If we were out of our body in an OB state and in the etheric world... we would see our room very clearly if we had the lights on...or it was daytime...if it was night time it would be shades of grey...but whatever the case all the physical things in our room would be exactly as they normally are when we are awake and in our body...

If our room appears altered in any way then we are in the emotional/astral/mental world where our minds change things at the slightest thought...remember that thought is a consciousness expression and that means that thought is energy in action...which can create all sorts of amazing scenery in our minds...and because we no longer have eye to see we now see with the 'minds eye'.

That is why it is very important for OB practitioners to understand what is going on when they leave their bodies because they can think up all sorts of strange things and then come back to the real world... and even tell people they were abducted by aliens...when in fact they created it all themselves... and when they woke up they are often in a state of panic.

I do not recommend OB to anyone without expert guidance... unless they are natural practitioners... which means that they have been doing this for many previous lives and instinctively know their way around.

OB is the biggest cause of fictitious stories about been abducted by aliens and all sorts of other demons and scary things...so just be warned.

We perceive with our 5 physical senses...feelings come from our emotional envelope...and we think with our mental envelope...

Take care
Ray

[Kirkland_Ta]

Hello Ray,

Thank you very much for your clear explanation for me. And thank you very much TraineeHuman, please take your time to complete your work, I am in no rush! :)

-----
Your answer definitely clarified a lot of concerns for me.

I agreed that the 'world' I had ventured into was not the 'etheric' world but the 'mental' world or the 'astral' world. Since most of the sleep paralysis I encountered were spontaneous, and I was not prepared with good knowledge before that event happened so there were certainly lots of fears from myself - Those fears stem from bad past experiences, and traumas, feelings etc. In which I am in the process of clearing and healing and grounding myself now, before I experience projection again.

I can induce the sleep paralysis easily and then follow with a projection, which you have clarified for me, they were mental projections; and my body were dense, I saw my body, it was alike in the physical world. But somehow it felt lighter and I could fly.

The problem for me is, I have to admit, I would like to know of the beings in the lower astral realms, but not because of curiosity, but because I have an inner desire to bring light to them. But I am not prepared now to venture into that world. And by the past experiences I had when I was a child - one story I told above when I was very small, that was the only experience I believe I was in OB state. There were other experiences when I saw the spirit of family member in dream, and I saw ghost in physical 3D world, and heard them too (in physical world - not dreaming). This part was the part that made me feel frightening the most. And it kept bringing me back close to the body.

And I know of astral projection by the incident of sleep paralysis, so of course I have been through no training with expert guidance yet... In this place I am currently in, it would be extremely hard to find such a guru that would be nice and kind enough to help me through this (preferably small group or 1-on-1), and such guru really like to advise others people on this. They all asked for lots of money and they would never be willing to share information without paying enough or more money to them...

What would be your advice for me and people like me, to find a way to move forward to the 'etheric world' and not be stuck in the mental dimension? I think astral projection comes naturally to me, and I also believe I have done this thousand times in past lives... I believe most of us all have done this...

I am now practicing more meditation to increase awareness, vibration and 'fight' with inner fears, cleansing and healing from past traumas. It took me a lot of courage, effort and dedication to come to this stage of life right now. Also before I could not understand the importance or why we need to take care of our physical body. I neglect my physical body a lot. In fact, I don't care for it, I care for others somehow more than myself. Now I am also learning to realize more things, and learn to love myself, all levels and parts of myself. Am I in the right track?

Thank you very much for your answer for me, especially the part you explained the /mind world/mental world/astral world/ and the "mind's eye". It really makes sense and helps me lots. :)

Much of love and blessings to all of you!

EDIT
------------
I have found many useful posts as well as exercises/practices in this thread.
It would be nice to have a summery on top of the first post that linked to the various posts in this thread, which would be absolutely easier for new members :)
I will help do this when I have more time! :)

[Guish]

Since you're healing yourself, I'd advise not to go down to lower astral. The only way is up. The essence of meditation is the clearing of trauma and bringing balance to your senses. The way you conduct your journey automatically affects the way you sleep. In fact, with rising level of awareness, one could spend the night without sleeping a lot. If you really want to help and give light to others, you can do that by loving everything that comes into contact with you in the physical world. I had sleep paralysis when I was fighting an illness and you get a lot of hallucinations when dealing with it. I also battled epilepsy which was very hard as a child. At the end of the day, the body is very important even if one knows that one is something else other than the body. The body expresses your consciousness. How can you not respect it? I've been in phases when I didn't feel the need to eat or drink too but I have responsibilities in the physical world and it's always about a higher cause. It's the not "I" getting enlightened. You become the light to brighten others. Ray will be very good talking about the lower astral and the dangers. I never allowed myself to be drawn to these during my practice.

Cheers Man.

[Finefeather]

It is quite difficult to give answers to actual occurences because we must always remember that the different worlds do not have boundaries...they merge into one another...like when we boil water we see the water and then the steam and then we do not see the evaporated molecules of the water...which is only because it has moved into the lower etheric dimension of the physical world.



I can induce the sleep paralysis easily and then follow with a projection, which you have clarified for me, they were mental projections; and my body were dense, I saw my body, it was alike in the physical world. But somehow it felt lighter and I could fly.
Just remember that sleep paralyses is simply the stage where we are halfway in and halfway out of the body...the physical mind is still active and our imaginations can run away with us at this point leading to all kinds of scary thoughts :)

I remember many of these experiences before I got to grips with it and today when I look back I smile at how our fears prevent our progress.


The problem for me is, I have to admit, I would like to know of the beings in the lower astral realms, but not because of curiosity, but because I have an inner desire to bring light to them.
As I mentioned the 'astral' world is actually the emotional world and there are just too many things we can meet up with there to give a concise list.

There are many Beings who live in the 'astral' dimensions who belong there and they have no interest in been 'lightened up' :) It is the same as our fish in the sea they belong there because that is what they are...
..but there is a little book which I would recommend which is useful to those who need to know more about these worlds.
http://blavatskyarchives.com/theosophypdfs/leadbeater_the_astral_plane_its_scenery_inhabitants_1895.pdf


What would be your advice for me and people like me, to find a way to move forward to the 'etheric world' and not be stuck in the mental dimension?

The etheric dimension is still within the physical world and the mental world is a much higher world...so I am not sure on your thoughts here...maybe you could clarify.

Take care
Ray

[TraineeHuman]

Dear Kirkland_Ta, I agree fully with most of what Ray has said so far. The only area where I would disagree would be that, based mainly on my own experience, the border line between what people may count as a lucid dream and actual travel in the astral or mental realm is usually very thin, and sometimes non-existent, I believe. I've certainly many times experienced seemingly being in a lucid dream and then immediately and seamlessly "taking off" and e.g. travelling past various planets to some location in an astral version of the solar system.

In addition, though, regarding soul travel I would further say -- and I'm not sure whether or not Ray would object to this -- that one enters the astral realm by going slightly inwards, and the mental realm by going inwards slightly -- make that considerably -- more again. All the higher planes are here, acting invisibly on us and yet as the underlying background, but usually somehow rather veiled from our sight. Not only that, but I would claim that if we want to be strictly correct, all OB "travel" is actually an illusion. (Again, this is something I don't think Ray would necessarily want to agree with, by the way.) Ultimately, who we all are is the One, or Source -- though expressing itself from our "own" unique angle. Since Source contains all there is within it, Source doesn't actually move when focus moves from one location or level to another. The reason why I'm mentioning this is that although I loved the feeling of flying, after some years and decades I eventually began to experience fewer and fewer indicators of "travel" seeming to occur, and these seemed to get replaced more and more by intensity of being, instead. Replace "Source" in the above consideration with anything formless, such as the Higher Mind (the soul), and you already have something beyond space-time and time-space, and therefore beyond all motion in the sense we conceive of motion or feel it, and therefore beyond "travel".

Your desire to shed great light on many dark beings in the lower astral makes me wonder if you know what you are saying, if you'll pardon my bluntness. You've already admitted to having had many problems with at least one ghost. Surely that ghost was a being from the lower astral? Just one being, and you had trouble. But you want to go there and face many such beings at the same time, it seems. Well, probably not even face them, because I take it possibly you may still be a little blind in that world? After all, it takes considerable work to develop your "sight" there, though you've had a teacher in energy work who may have covered some of the skills you need before you can "see" clearly. In the astral, light is the same thing as both food and money are here in the physical. In your country, would you go to one of the dangerous areas of the capital city to be alone in at night, not knowing where you were nor who was about, and you were carrying large amounts of money and a sign that said: "Free money for you"? If one ghost could scare you, how will you feel about entire gangs of scary beings all rushing at you at once, perhaps, maybe with their long knives drawn and pointing at your neck? I would suggest at least get yourself a black belt in psychic judo and psychic karate first. (I've done something like getting such "qualifications".) This type of zealous mistake is one that beginners typically make in many of these fields. I used to do something similar years ago. I once even cured someone of insanity in three days -- and that's supposed to be impossible according to orthodox psychology and psychiatry. Very fortunately, at the time I had a very clairvoyant spiritual/psychological/energy teacher who could immediately see I had taken in some insane energy into myself, and he knew how to rescue me from that energy quickly. If you were meant to be the special one who (rather impossibly) saves the darkest beings with your light, you would have been trained for it from birth. Not that they could be quickly saved even then, as Ray implies. This notion of "aren't I being ever so very heroic and helpful to God?" is really just the ego, I'm afraid. And some of the dark beings have fallen from Divinity and are being held in prison in the lower astral, and who are you to think you have been entrusted with special access to those prison keys?

The traditional way to learn OB "travel" was solely in combination with extensive meditation. I've actually never heard of anyone having frightening OB experiences when pursuing that method (unless you happen to be the exception, K_T). On the other hand, as far as I remember rarely has anyone pursuing any other method of OB experience not had significant if not frequent encounters with horrific beings or forces -- regardless of whether they were actually just in the experiencer's mind or not. As far as I understand and experience, what meditation is really all about is going to a higher and higher level or plane in the quickest possible manner. That means going to positivity, to or towards heaven, in the quickest possible manner -- whiile one is meditating. Surely it follows that negative beings or forces are going to have a very tough time getting their toe in the door, as long as you're meditating properly.

In my childhood I didn't know how to meditate properly, not in any consistent way. From the age of five until eight, I would believe I clairvoyantly clearly "saw" a demonic being outside my window each and every night before I would fall asleep. It wasn't, strictly speaking, in the physical, but in the lower astral, waiting for me to go to sleep. Talk about horrific. I should add that at that age (and any age since, whenever I've made the effort) seeing nature spirits and having relationships with them (sometimes with a sexual energy that doesn't involve the genitals but starts at the center of gravity chakra and flows up and out the top of the head) was and is a regular and "normal" part of my life. (Many others may not have any access to such positive relationships with nature spirits, however.) My mother was extraordinarily clairvoyant, so I asked her how could I possibly defend myself against the demon. Although I could tell she didn't seem to believe there was a demon there (though today I still believe there was), she essentially advised me to declare and stand in my sovereignty. She also emphatically assured me the demon wouldn't be able to harm me in any way at all then. And I could tell she truly believed that, and so I learnt to fall asleep quite quickly without fearing the demon whose presence I could still see nearby. In my childhood I also encountered ghosts, but they usually didn't scare me, not unless they kept me awake with poltergeist-style activity when I was trying to sleep.

So, I agree with Guish that meditation seems to be the most effective protection. Of course, anyone who's been smoking marijuana or dabbling in black magic or whatever may encounter some dark forces they have allowed into their dark side, even though they learn to meditate well.

I've had a few spiritual teachers who've endlessly said: "Don't look at the scenery (or they've said something equivalent to that) whenever you're meditating!" Possibly the most central "action" in meditation is to continually allow whatever is there inside one to slip away, and thereby allow it to get replaced with something from an ever higher plane. Looking at "the scenery" would involve looking outwards, plus not allowing oneself to go to a yet higher level or plane. But when I've been meditating for a lengthy time, I'll sometimes naturally slip into scenery-watching for a while, maybe as a kind of short rest period. That scenery-watching is precisely the same as OB experiencing, for me at least. And it happens so effortlessly and seamlessly, if I've done several hours' meditation.

[Guish]

In my experience, I've had some creepy beings coming together with sounds like evil shouting and ugly ghost like faces of women trying to scare me while I've gone deeper into meditation. To me, they were representations of MaRa like Buddha called them. Maintaining calmness with detachment of anything happening has been the key. I even experienced a sort of earthquake in my body once and it was quite intense. I woke up from zazen calmly because of the maturity I had. TH helped me with the Kundalini some time ago. I really appreciated that Brother. The key to everything is letting go and viewing with detachment. I stayed detached from every projection so far and this is why my experiences so far are very different from other members here but I have seen the manifestation of spirit. If one concentrates on something, one will go deep in it. If one is evil, one will develop powers while accessing higher planes. I remember devadatta who was buddha's cousin tried to kill him after developing powers through meditation. However, Pureness of the heart is greater than anything like showed by Buddha.

[Finefeather]

The only area where I would disagree would be that, based mainly on my own experience, the border line between what people may count as a lucid dream and actual travel in the astral or mental realm is usually very thin, and sometimes non-existent, I believe. I've certainly many times experienced seemingly being in a lucid dream and then immediately and seamlessly "taking off" and e.g. travelling past various planets to some location in an astral version of the solar system.

TH I fully agree with you that this is possible...I was just trying to be a little conservative in my post because we could be here all night trying to think of all the anomalies and variances which take place in this practice. :)

I think it is a little too much to give too much in a forum post because I do not always know much about the persons I am responding to...so I always just use the baiting game... and wait to see if there is anything else I can contribute to.

And also I should just say that there is not a lot that we disagree on...and that is from my side...it is usually just terms and words. I am trying to steer away from words which have...to me and most I mix with...many meanings...this seems to be quite a problem sometimes in conversation..

Take care brother
Ray

[Kirkland_Ta]

Thank you very much Guish, Ray and TraineeHuman for your advices and explanation. I really appreciate, and thank you very much for your time.
I would like to clear some points first..

=========================
@Guish: Thank you very much for pointing out keys in meditation, in which I have not had enough practice, courage to look into the truth and face all the 'wanderings' inside. I meant I looked at those, but I think I have not been able to be in the right "attitude"/"mode"/"vibration" (like you said - 'maintaining calmness with detachment'). And I take in careful your remind of pure and evil purpose. I know this is the important part, and I do not have any evil desire. However, just like many beginners, my mind is a mess of so many paradox(es). I have always learnt to clear and calm it. I do not know if this will be true, based on combination of advices from all, that in order to get over the 'boundaries' (here meant fears), one would need to actually 'face' them and 'win' them over, by the same force but not with the same 'attributes' (in simple: 'win' over 'evil' by 'expressing love' etc.). In order word, we all need to 'successfully go into/pass' the dark cages of our own in order to be cleansed and clear' ?

* About the body, at first I do not get the importance of it because of first-personal issues, and second-because of the familiar saying "You are not the body having a soul, You are the soul having the body". I used to believe that you should just care about the spirit inside, since the body is nothing but an expression of your spirit. This hangs on my head a long time, I could not figure out the reason why. Just like you are the one who drives the car, but not the car itself. But I was wrong because, in order to do the best performance or functionality, one would need to be 'cleanse', and the car one drives also needs to be 'cleanse' and its compartment also needs to be at it best. Finally I understand that The saying above is not telling you to neglect the body, but instead realize the important of the spirit inside. It may seem weird to you, but this is actually what I have thought of, I was stupid and I still am, but I want to get better =)


==========================
@TraineeHuman: regarding my 'interest' in going to the 'lower astral worlds' and 'help bringing light'.
It does not come from ego, personally my ego does not 'like' this. And believe me because I seriously know what I am saying... It is why I am always having hard time to confront this. And sorry because I have not been clear on this. But what I meant was not your scenario, of going into the dark and offering 'free light'. But what I meant was more of 'offering light' to the 'beings' who seek help but do not have by chances anyway to resolve their conflicts. I also do not want to do this because of proving self-ego, or heroic-ego, I actually do not like this (who would like to get in touch with 'negativities'?), but I have a feeling that I should do this. But they scared me off, and I should not be like that. That is my boundary/challenge that I would like to overcome. And personally and honestly I don't think you need to be 'special' or sort of ; or be trained at certain age to do this (type of thing - it also isn't the type of 'work' you described ), I know of people and friends who actually do this. Mostly those spirits hang onto the astral realms because they have unresolved issues in the 3D world that they could not 'move on', they need some sort of a 'medium channel' to deliver their messages. It is not an act of heroic, it is more of an 'avocation'. I agree dead-on with you about taking a 'psychic black-belt'. And that sort of 'psychic protection' course is a necessity and requirement to not only the one who would like to practice this type of 'psychic work', but also to anyone who practice spirituality in general.

[Kirkland_Ta]

Hello (again :D ), this will mainly focused on questions regarding astral travel, astral 'world'
===============================





What would be your advice for me and people like me, to find a way to move forward to the 'etheric world' and not be stuck in the mental dimension?

The etheric dimension is still within the physical world and the mental world is a much higher world...so I am not sure on your thoughts here...maybe you could clarify.

Take care
Ray

Hello, I read through your previous post and maybe I got your idea wrong. It was because you said:


If we were out of our body in an OB state and in the etheric world... we would see our room very clearly if we had the lights on...or it was daytime...if it was night time it would be shades of grey...but whatever the case all the physical things in our room would be exactly as they normally are when we are awake and in our body...

then:

If our room appears altered in any way then we are in the emotional/astral/mental world where our minds change things at the slightest thought...remember that thought is a consciousness expression and that means that thought is energy in action...which can create all sorts of amazing scenery in our minds...and because we no longer have eye to see we now see with the 'minds eye'.

Since most of my projections my room appeared to be altered that was why I drew the 'conclusion' from you advice I was in 'mental world'. And I 'associate' the OB state <-> 'etheric world', and that was why I thought 'etheric world' > 'mental world' or 'astral world'
Would you mind clarifying more please?

Thank you very much for the link to your book. I am reading it. :sun:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also :


It is quite difficult to give answers to actual occurences because we must always remember that the different worlds do not have boundaries...they merge into one another...like when we boil water we see the water and then the steam and then we do not see the evaporated molecules of the water...which is only because it has moved into the lower etheric dimension of the physical world.

This is an excellent example for me :) , I think I get what you meant , but please help me clarify this, I am not sure if I understand it right

Let's take your example of the 'boiling water' and turn it into a picture. Let's say if I would like to display that 'picture' in the computer screen...
1. For example if you are using 'Photoshop' to create this picture/drawing (same case if you paint it by hand), you would paint it layers by layers (for example: the water - you paint general background color, then you apply more colors and shadings on top etc.)

2. If you had the complete photo/picture. If you choose to 'zoom - in' the photo, you would see it would be make up of many pixels. Hence each 'zoom - in' provides you with different 'view' of the picture, but it is the same picture.

My question is if thinking of astral world or different dimensional worlds ... , in which way 1 or 2 is a closer approach to the actual underlying composition of those worlds?

like for what i understand per your saying is that
water and steam and the molecules (vaporization) are both actually different expressions of the same thing.
if it can be represented in some way, it can be like this

you would have a 'base object'. The 'base object' would be composed of different layers of information, there would be layer that contain actual components and structure of this 'base object'. There would also be a layer that will represent the 'actual view' (in 3D world) of this object. Under certain 'arrangements' and 'conditions' this 'base object' would 'manifest' itself into different 'views' : Example: when arrangements = 'molecules' are closely tight together and conditions = cold temperature 'base-object' would render a "view = 'ice' " ; there would also be 'in-between' layer(s) that just by accessing those layers, you can actually change the states/arrangements/conditions of such 'basic-object' and it will manifest itself as corresponding 'view' without having to actually 'alter' the view itself. So in the 3D world you can only see certain 'views' (for example, we can observe the 'views' of solid, liquid, gas, plasma; but cannot actually see how the molecules moving or forming)

the question is that..... how should I treat the 'molecules' layer and how does it relate to the 'astral layer/dimension/world' that you described? is it true that if one chooses to look 'closely' and more 'inward' to actually 'observe' the 'molecules' layer, that layer is called the 'astral layer' or just a different 'version' of the 'view' ( <=> different versions and make up of the physical views) ? or the astral layer should be the 'in-between' layers?

I am confused.

[Finefeather]

Since most of my projections my room appeared to be altered that was why I drew the 'conclusion' from you advice I was in 'mental world'. And I 'associate' the OB state <-> 'etheric world', and that was why I thought 'etheric world' > 'mental world' or 'astral world'
Would you mind clarifying more please?
There are 49 atomic worlds in our Cosmos. Humans only 'operate' in the lowest 3... so I am not going to go into this here because it would require an extended lecture.

I am also not going to go into great detail with these 3...but I will attempt to give you the best idea I can under the circumstances.

Starting from the highest world we have…

.Mental World which has 4 dimensions...this world does have 3 higher levels to make up the 7 but they are causal levels which very few have reached...and when and if they do reach them they will usually know it.

.Emotional World which has 7 dimensions...this world is also known as the astral world... but this word is confusing, because very few actually know what it is...most just know this as the place where bad people and all sorts of black magicians live...but this is completely inaccurate...the 7 dimensions in this world accommodates beings of various shapes and sizes as well as various states of 'good' and 'evil'...but it is complicated and should not be seen as something we can easily describe in a short post or two...so generalisation is often the best approach...until personal experience can give those the answers they are looking for.

.Physical World which has 7 dimensions and they are:
Atomic
Sub-Atomic
Super-Etheric
Etheric (chemical atom)
Gaseous
Liquid
Solid

ALL the higher worlds are in the same space and time as the physical world and the only reason we cannot perceive them is because we lack the organs or the consciousness refinement to do so.

In the physical world we have the 5 senses so we can experience ALL of the bottom 3 dimensions of the physical world...solid, liquid and gaseous.

Some people have etheric vision...which is a physical eye ability…and can see into one or more of the higher dimensions of the physical world...like the etheric or the super-etheric…

Some people are clairvoyant which means they can see into one or more of the Emotional world's dimensions...like those who can see ghosts and other strange phenomena like feeling emotional states outside of their own body.

Some people are able to 'see', in their minds, colours as numbers... or sounds as colours... or have the ability to compute great mathematical equations without any calculator…these people are accessing the mental world.

When we have a conscious out of body experience...and I am not talking about sleep here... and depending on our consciousness level which we have achieved...we are only able to access the dimension or world which our level of consciousness allows.

So untrained OB practitioners often start off at say the etheric dimension and then suddenly might be in one of the dimensions of the emotional world...others may go directly to the emotional world...or mental world...there is no rule or way to determine this other than the state of mind of the person...and the consciousness level...which will determine the dimension of the world in which they are in.

I am going to stop here and let you decide if I am making any sense to you so far…

There is a great deal more to this... so if people think they can just learn all about this in a few posts...then they are mistaken….of course that does not mean that this tiny bit of information might not trigger some latent memory...which is another story.

I also have no wish to convince anyone of anything I post because each must determine his/her own truth and at best the reader should consider what I post as a hypothesis until some time in the future when this may or may not prove true.

Take care
Ray

[Kirkland_Ta]

Hello Ray,

Thank you for your clarifying. I have started to read your book after my above posts and found out that it had lots of answers to my many-questions.
I will continue my askings :D after getting to understand more about the materials presented in the book.. I was about to ask TraineeHuman to clarify some more points that I did not quite get but I think it would be better after I learn more from the book, then re-read your posts. Thank you much for your sincere advice and your knowledge for me so far. It meant a lot to me.

Many blessings :heart:

[TraineeHuman]

* About the body, at first I do not get the importance of it because of first-personal issues, and second-because of the familiar saying "You are not the body having a soul, You are the soul having the body". I used to believe that you should just care about the spirit inside, since the body is nothing but an expression of your spirit. This hangs on my head a long time, I could not figure out the reason why. Just like you are the one who drives the car, but not the car itself. But I was wrong because, in order to do the best performance or functionality, one would need to be 'cleanse', and the car one drives also needs to be 'cleanse' and its compartment also needs to be at it best. Finally I understand that The saying above is not telling you to neglect the body, but instead realize the important of the spirit inside. It may seem weird to you, but this is actually what I have thought of, I was stupid and I still am, but I want to get better =)


If you feel a passion for helping individuals stuck in lower astral worlds and you have the ability and knowledge and skills to do so, then that's very laudable. The earthbound world, and the world just above it, are certainly bleak places. Ray devotes himself to doing precisely such work, as far as I understand. Maybe he has some practical suggestions of how to do it safely and more effectively, and how not to be misled by deceiving energies. And as he so aptly explains, there's no reason to go overboard with paranoia that you are being abducted/etc when probably -- most of the time at least -- all that's happening is, you're experiencing your own dark side.

I've certainly done some work in that field, though I don't have a strong, burning interest in specializing in that. One's effectiveness seems to depend considerably on one's skill level as an astral or mental version of a psychotherapist, perhaps often, in my experience, working much more with higher "energy" rather than emotions and thoughts. When I was in my late forties the guardian angels (guardian "Devas") emphatically informed me that I was one of them but had temporarily incarnated in the physical, and would be returning to join them "soon". I guess that explained why, during my mid- to late twenties, I came to notice that often there would be twenty or thirty astral humans following me everywhere and expecting me to assist them in accordance with a guardian angel's duties. They all mistook me for one of the guardian angels (the administrative and legal authorities in the afterlife) at work in their astral world, and back then I used to find that amusing but assumed it wasn't true, and would do my best to carry out some astral "social work" mostly by guesswork, and then hand an individual or a group over to benevolent beings to take things further.

You also mention that you seem to have cultivated an interest in higher planes than the physical at the expense of paying attention to your life in the physical world. That brings certain problems. On the other hand, it also potentially brings long-term benefits: ultimately we need to bring heaven fully down to earth, but to truly do that we do need to know heaven quite well, though also we need to know earth well.

That's not the only reason why you can't afford to neglect either the higher worlds on the one hand, or your life in the physical world on the other.Your body-consciousness -- your "human" or "animal" part -- needs to be nurtured, or else your experience of a life in the physical world won't give you all your money's worth for the "ticket" you "bought" in coming here. I was recently reflecting on how I ended up marrying the wrong woman, in a relationship that ended after four years. There was another woman that I never had a relationship with because at the time I was mostly involved with a certain other woman whom I truly loved, and she truly loved me, but she wasn't the right partner for me either. In retrospect I can see that had I listened better to my body-consciousness, it would have enabled me to see which was the right partner. Particularly since I was regularly experiencing profound bliss in higher planes -- love taken to a degree of intensity beyond what most people ever experience in the physical -- that kind of "devalued" the romantic love I experienced.

[Guish]

That's not the only reason why you can't afford to neglect either the higher worlds on the one hand, or your life in the physical world on the other.Your body-consciousness -- your "human" or "animal" part -- needs to be nurtured, or else your experience of a life in the physical world won't give you all your money's worth for the "ticket" you "bought" in coming here. I was recently reflecting on how I ended up marrying the wrong woman, in a relationship that ended after four years. There was another woman that I never had a relationship with because at the time I was mostly involved with a certain other woman whom I truly loved, and she truly loved me, but she wasn't the right partner for me either. In retrospect I can see that had I listened better to my body-consciousness, it would have enabled me to see which was the right partner. Particularly since I was regularly experiencing profound bliss in higher planes -- love taken to a degree of intensity beyond what most people ever experience in the physical -- that kind of "devalued" the romantic love I experienced.

Even a person with your psychic ability got it wrong. TH. It's interesting to know and thanks for sharing. Marriage helped me to study the ego more and go beyond emotional and sensual drives. However, as we converge towards equanimity the further we go, does anything like romance even exist? There are a number of times where my wife told me that she would have preferred to marry a normal guy.(Not seriously but deep down our relationship is not conventional).

[Finefeather]

Marriage helped me to study the ego more and go beyond emotional and sensual drives. However, as we converge towards equanimity the further we go, does anything like romance even exist? There are a number of times where my wife told me that she would have preferred to marry a normal guy.(Not seriously but deep down our relationship is not conventional).
Hi Guish
This is a very interesting realisation...which I have personally had the opportunity to experience...and contemplate on numerous occasions...so I know exactly what you are saying here.

It becomes the 'enlightened' one in the relationship...who needs to adjust his/her focus.

In reality this can and has lead to all kinds of actions but each action needs to be looked at separately because some of these might very well be negative...and self serving...and far from the very thing we are trying to achieve...which is unity.

If we suddenly realise the truth of unconditional love and our partner has not...conflict can arise very quickly…

So what would be the action of the wise man in this predicament other than the test of loyalty?

And why loyalty we may ask? ...because loyalty is the test of service to humanity...be it one or one thousand whom we serve with no expectations of anything in return.

This will give the ones we serve confidence in their struggle with the demands of the ego... and by been drawn to loyalty it would gradually put their ego in the past...such is service...and such is unity.

With love to all
Ray

[greybeard]

Yes Guish and Ray
I have been married three time and several other long term relationships.
Each one "modified" my reaction to situations in these relationships.
Everyone a blessing in their own way.

The "me" is no longer the "me" I used to be.

Each one brought to the surface emotions I was not aware of.
Extreme jealousy, brought forgiveness out of me.
Temper in the other brought a calm disposition.
Then there was a joined at the hip--which led to supporting each other.
A great, near as possible unconditional love for me came from another.
Now one that I have the greatest respect for who is demolishing my ego, she is a carbon copy of the way I used to be.
Totally single minded on the current project.
So there you go.
At each stage I got exactly what was needed for spiritual growth..
Oh and a pet dog that taught me truly unconditional love.

With love
Chris

[Guish]

Marriage helped me to study the ego more and go beyond emotional and sensual drives. However, as we converge towards equanimity the further we go, does anything like romance even exist? There are a number of times where my wife told me that she would have preferred to marry a normal guy.(Not seriously but deep down our relationship is not conventional).
Hi Guish
This is a very interesting realisation...which I have personally had the opportunity to experience...and contemplate on numerous occasions...so I know exactly what you are saying here.

It becomes the 'enlightened' one in the relationship...who needs to adjust his/her focus.

In reality this can and has lead to all kinds of actions but each action needs to be looked at separately because some of these might very well be negative...and self serving...and far from the very thing we are trying to achieve...which is unity.

If we suddenly realise the truth of unconditional love and our partner has not...conflict can arise very quickly…

So what would be the action of the wise man in this predicament other than the test of loyalty?

And why loyalty we may ask? ...because loyalty is the test of service to humanity...be it one or one thousand whom we serve with no expectations of anything in return.

This will give the ones we serve confidence in their struggle with the demands of the ego... and by been drawn to loyalty it would gradually put their ego in the past...such is service...and such is unity.

With love to all
Ray


Hi Brother,

I think people do realise the harm they do but either people do not know they are not the ego and they defend the ego with full pride as they wouldn't exist or they are controlled by their senses. Most of the time people do not want to face themselves and sort out things. However, facing oneself shatters oneself as everything one believed so far crumbles down. Yet, freedom starts there. However,having a spiritual partner balances things as things don't go overboard. Sensual pleasures and desires are the snakes on the wheel of life. Full devotion is very important as you said. The zen moment is everywhere. In every breath.....in every activity...

[TraineeHuman]

Enlightenment is not about mystical experiences...anyone can train themselves to have those...like most Yogis and so called Gurus...it is about knowing why we should serve others.

We are a human collective and this means that everyone in this collective is responsible for the collective and our goal of consciousness growth is to know this and forget about our own selfish desires...and that includes nirvana.

...
This constant quest to enlightenment will not be realised until we serve others.


JnXRWUcuCXU

[TraineeHuman]

I have been married three time and several other long term relationships.
Each one "modified" my reaction to situations in these relationships.
Everyone a blessing in their own way.

The "me" is no longer the "me" I used to be.


w4W7iRVUv8A

B5zY55KH4vs

4FXkf6i5PTU

[kirolak]

I agree, everybody one truly has relationship with brings one a gift of some kind. . . . personally, I've had some really nasty things spring out from the ornate gift boxes, but with hindsight, I see that all things, even inanimate ones, are one's "guru" if one opens one's heart to them. I try nowadays to look into myself to see what "gift" I could be seen to be bringing others with whom I come into contact in my daily life, & am brought up short at how often I really don't like what I am carrying. But there is time, often, to change.. . . .

[kirolak]

Hello Ray,

Thank you for your clarifying. I have started to read your book after my above posts and found out that it had lots of answers to my many-questions.
I will continue my askings :D after getting to understand more about the materials presented in the book.. I was about to ask TraineeHuman to clarify some more points that I did not quite get but I think it would be better after I learn more from the book, then re-read your posts. Thank you much for your sincere advice and your knowledge for me so far. It meant a lot to me.

Many blessings :heart:

My apologies, is there a link to a book by Finefeather? Could I ask you/him to repost it? I haven't read this entire thread as I often pop in briefly while at work. . :facepalm:

[TraineeHuman]

kirolak, it's post #2218

[Crazyfit1]

I have been trying to astral project for about 5 months now and i never come enywhere close, only sleep paralysis every now and then followed by nightmares.has enybody got some tips for me?

[TraineeHuman]

Hi, Crazyfit1, and welcome to the Forum. The nightmares are a warning that your state of consciousness when you're going to sleep is too low, I'm afraid. You don't want to leave your body while you're in such a state, as otherwise you'll go straight into the world of the nightmares themselves. I suggest you need to meditate (or do something like qi gong or t'ai chi) for an hour before going to sleep.

I also don't believe in trying hard as a way of learning to astral travel. Rather, it should happen as a byproduct of meditation, no doubt helped along by your willingness to OB travel should the vibrations come.

Even if you should never succeed (though let's hope otherwise), your effort isn't wasted because you'll still be working on becoming greater and realising how vast you truly are. The lowest stages of enlightenment are simply about discovering one's true greatness -- beyond the best possible thing you might previously have imagined about yourself.

[Guish]

Hi, Crazyfit1, and welcome to the Forum. The nightmares are a warning that your state of consciousness when you're going to sleep is too low, I'm afraid. You don't want to leave your body while you're in such a state, as otherwise you'll go straight into the world of the nightmares themselves. I suggest you need to meditate (or do something like qi gong or t'ai chi) for an hour before going to sleep.

I also don't believe in trying hard as a way of learning to astral travel. Rather, it should happen as a byproduct of meditation, no doubt helped along by your willingness to OB travel should the vibrations come.

Even if you should never succeed (though let's hope otherwise), your effort isn't wasted because you'll still be working on becoming greater and realising how vast you truly are. The lowest stages of enlightenment are simply about discovering one's true greatness -- beyond the best possible thing you might previously have imagined about yourself.

That's a great piece of advice. There's so much emphasis on the supernatural that people miss the essence of things. The same has happened to Yoga as well.

[TraineeHuman]

While we're mentioning everyone's inner greatness and vastness and the importance of genuine self-esteem, here are a few quotes.

Eileen Caddy: "Seek always for the answers within. Be not influenced by those around you - by their thoughts or their words."

Gary Zukav:

"We cannot stop the winter or the summer from coming. We cannot stop the spring or the fall or make them other than they are. They are gifts from the universe that we cannot refuse. But we can choose what we will contribute to life when each arrives."

"The only things standing between you and the compassionate, wise, and creative person you want to be are matters of choice. Your choice. No one can occupy your generosity except you."

"You experience your soul each time you sense yourself as more than a mind and body, your life as meaningful, or you feel that you have gifts to give and you long to give them."

"We are spiritual beings, we have always been spiritual beings and we will always be spiritual beings. The difference is that now we are becoming aware of ourselves as spiritual beings and that is making all the difference."

"Every action, thought, and feeling is motivated by an intention, and that intention is a cause that exists as one with an effect.... In this most profound way, we are held responsible for every action, thought, and feeling, which is to say, for our every intention."

"Humble spirits are free to love and to be who they are. They have no artificial standards to live up to."

"Workaholism is a deep sleep that prevents you from stepping into the power and purpose of your life."

“When you have an emotional reaction to what you see, you are judging. That is your signal that you have an issue inside of yourself - with yourself - not with the other person. If you react to evil, look inside yourself for the very thing that so agitates you, and you will find it. If it were not there, you will simply discern, act appropriately, and move on.”

“Humbleness, forgiveness, clarity and love are the dynamics of freedom. They are the foundations of authentic power.”

“Trust allows you to give. Giving is abundant. As you give so it shall be given to you. If you give with judgment, limitation and stinginess, that is what you will create in your life - judgment, limitation, and stinginess.”

“Ask and you shall receive" is the rule, but you must learn how to ask and how to receive”
“A power struggle collapses when you withdraw your energy from it. Power struggles become uninteresting to you when you change your intention from winning to learning about yourself.”

“The spring wakes us, nurtures us and revitalizes us. How often does your spring come? If you are a prisoner of the calendar, it comes once a year. If you are creating authentic power, it comes frequently, or very frequently. It comes each time you recognize a frightened part of your personality as a part of yourself that you were born to challenge and leave behind. It comes when you realize that a painful emotion (such as anger, jealousy, fear or resentment) is not who you are, but a message to pay attention to what you need to change in yourself in order to move into your full potential.”

"The next time you feel unworthy, inadequate or inferior, remember that these experiences have nothing to do with humbleness, any more than lowering yourself to connect with another individual has to do with humbleness. There are no lower or higher individuals in the perception of a humble person. There are only souls. There is only love."

"No one can occupy your generosity except you. Who can occupy your patience when impatience roars through you? Who except you can choose not to act with judgment when all of your thoughts are judgmental? Your life is yours to live, no matter how you choose to live it. When you do not think about how you intend to live it, it lives you."

"The purpose of our journey on this precious Earth is now to align our personalities with our souls.
It is to create harmony, cooperation, sharing, and reverence for Life. It is to grow spiritually. This is our new evolutionary pathway. The old pathway - pursuing the ability to manipulate and control - no longer works. It now produces only violence and destruction."

"When you assume responsibility for what you experience and share what you experience in a spirit of companionship, that is the same as forgiveness.
When you hold someone responsible for what you experience, you lose power."

"Truth is that which does not contaminate you, but empowers you.
Therefore, there are degrees of truth, but, generically, truth is that which can do no harm. It cannot harm."

"When you welcome your emotions as teachers, every emotion brings good news, even the ones that are painful."

"You cannot, and will not, encounter a circumstance, or a single moment, that does not serve directly and immediately the need of your soul to heal."

[Guish]

https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11855843_804929226293146_5557394045171879489_n.jpg?oh=7dcd82bf2ce11a47bfd4ad9a16b3da80&oe=56429BDF

Balance

6s1WhlJh8ro

The middle way.

Balance in one's actions
Balance in one's thoughts
Balance in one's relationships

[TraineeHuman]

It's quite simple (though not easy) to penetrate through all the veils separating different dimensions, as the following quote describes.

"You want to know yourself?
Then keep steady
in the focus of consciousness
the only clue you have: your certainty of being.
Be with it, play with it, ponder over it.
Delve deeply into it
Till the shell of ignorance breaks open
And you emerge into the realm of reality."

~ Nisargadatta Maharaj

[Guish]

I like the clue, the certainty of being. Yet, who is certain of it? We already shut down the senses. So, how does one experiences this? The one observing becomes the one which was observed realising Union. While I experienced no thought and no breathing, I also experienced the ability to move, leave the body or just stay still which I usually do.

[TraineeHuman]

I like the clue, the certainty of being. Yet, who is certain of it? We already shut down the senses. So, how does one experiences this? The one observing becomes the one which was observed realising Union.

The way to find Source is to find and stay with what's most truly and fully and completely real, and to settle for nothing less. We use our intuition and we directly know, we "sense" what's real. I think that's what Nisargadatta is saying.

I suggest that only the ordinary mind or the ego ever asks "how?" regarding anything. Better to drop all "how?" except as part of some practical activity. Not in the realm of transcendent experience, surely.

But if one insists on talking in terms of "how?", perhaps we can say something incomplete or vague, such as that it's a matter of putting all our attention on everything that's so obvious we "normally" try to keep it in the background.

Plus, if the observer and the observed are truly one, you're already at Source, which means you're beyond all seeking at that point.

[Guish]

I suggest that only the ordinary mind or the ego ever asks "how?" regarding anything. Better to drop all "how?" except as part of some practical activity. Not in the realm of transcendent experience, surely.



I think the ego always try to interpret such experiences but words can't really be used. That's why terms like "Void" and "Nothing" came out from Zen Masters.



Plus, if the observer and the observed are truly one, you're already at Source, which means you're beyond all seeking at that point.

That's the purest state of our being. Effortlessly, I have brought this bliss in the physical world and this has brought relief to the negativity at work or at home. Having said this, I've not seen anything from past lives yet. According to Ray, I can operate from a higher mental plane in the Physical world at times. I suspect my approach to meditation brought me there. In Zen, stillness is the key and the will to explore is let go as well. During meditation, I feel the possibility to move out and go up if there's an intention but I ignore this intention as well. Perhaps, you have an explanation for me.

[TraineeHuman]

In Zen, stillness is the key and the will to explore is let go as well. During meditation, I feel the possibility to move out and go up if there's an intention but I ignore this intention as well. Perhaps, you have an explanation for me.

If there's in any sense a conflict between a higher and a lower plane, we should ascend to the higher plane. At least, that's what the Bhagavad Gita says. On the other hand, from a certain plane on the only way to ever go higher is to surrender to some Force that seems to be and is other than yourself. At such a point anything to do with the ego isn't in effect, obviously.

There are levels of intention, and with surrender you're giving over to the Divine intention. If the intention you're ignoring is the Divine intention, then obviously that would be to go against your surrender. On the other hand, if it's your own intention, then yes, you should ignore that unless it's an intention to surrender or to be free -- which can be a huge help, though, I have found. Also, with surrender there can be a "new birth" where you now can be stable on some higher plane. That new you can still act in the physical world, but as it says in the Bible, "I live, yet not I, but [sic] Christ lives in me." So, like the Zen people, I don't agree with Patanjali that we need to cease to act much in the physical world once such a "new you" as pure spirit has been "born".

[greybeard]

The teacher and the taught are the same.
If appearing to surrender to a teacher in reality you are surrendering to the Truth which is already within you.
The genuine teacher does not look for devotees and is in truth serving you.

The analogy of the caterpillar becoming the butterfly is helpful, in that there is a definite shift.
Until this happens it may well be beneficial to pray to the Ultimate.
Of myself I do nothing, it is the Father within.
Even after the realisation Ramana and others still pray.

The book "I am that" By Nisargadatta is very helpful.
He recommended sleeping with it under the pillow.
Its a question of energy--there can be a transference of enlightened energy.
You have to put in the work to be ready for this though.
Nothing good comes easy.

Those who have a spontaneous awakening like Ramana or Eckhart Tolle probably did the work in previous lives.
The late Dr David Hawkins could remember past lives---Adyashanti was shown these as he awakened.

There seems to be levels of enlightenment--this was alluded to by Hawkins.
Even after this there are higher levels but it would seem that there are limits to what can be attained in this heavy density world.

Not saying Im right, this is just my current understanding.

Love Chris

[Guish]

So, like the Zen people, I don't agree with Patanjali that we need to cease to act much in the physical world once such a "new you" as pure spirit has been "born".

I didn't know Patanjali made such a claim. Buddha highlighted that the body is as important as the mind. If the body doesn't function well, the mind loses its stillness.

[Guish]

The analogy of the caterpillar becoming the butterfly is helpful, in that there is a definite shift.
Until this happens it may well be beneficial to pray to the Ultimate.
Of myself I do nothing, it is the Father within.
Even after the realisation Ramana and others still pray.
Love Chris

This is a very interesting comment Chris. While I don't necessarily pray, I found that regular meditation is important to maintain the light. Just like one pours oil in the candle to maintain the light, selfless actions and silent meditation brightens our inner light. The ultimate realization is union. So, I find it strange that people would withdraw from the physical world. In fact, it's challenging to be in the physical world while being spiritual.

[greybeard]

Hi Guish all prayers are for the benefit of little self, Self does not need them.

So the prayers on my part are mainly gratitude and asking that ignorance is removed--that the self is Self Realised.
The Gayatri mantra is also used and of course meditation which is not formal--silent sitting is a good description.
The meditation can be while walking---silence--no comment on what I become aware of.
Things are viewed in the here and now---I don't go into the filing cabinet of the mind for information about.
If I did I would loose conscious awareness of what was being viewed.
I see it fresh and alive. exactly as it is---this does not need comment.

Love Chris

[Wind]

If the body doesn't function well, the mind loses its stillness.

This is true to an extent, I would know. That also begs the question, can someone ill achieve everlasting peace no matter what the body goes through? Is my body not working due to karma or some other reason? I know that the body, mind and soul are all connected though. I am not my body and I am not my ego, but I am the self. Yet my body is my temple and I have to balance between my heart and mind. I pray more often that I meditate, but I have tried to meditate as often as I can. I don't feel like forcing it, but I should make a habit out of it.