[CBSNEWS, 60 minutes] Babies help unlock the origins of morality

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

Are we witnessing a Spring ice thaw maybe? :) Another msm article on spirituality...:dizzy::confused:;)

Previous was here (June 14, 2012) :)
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57453393/mindfulness-to-reduce-stress-becoming-more-popular/?tag=stack
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?46388-MSM-CBSNEWS--Mindfulness-to-reduce-stress-becoming-more-popular

Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57551557/born-good-babies-help-unlock-the-origins-of-morality/

Babies help unlock the origins of morality
November 18, 2012 7:55 PM

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/11/18/Baby_Wide_620x350.jpg

The following script is from "The Baby Lab" which aired on Nov. 18, 2012. Lesley Stahl is the correspondent. Shari Finkelstein, producer.

It's a question people have asked for as long as there have been people: are human beings inherently good? Are we born with a sense of morality or do we arrive blank slates, waiting for the world to teach us right from wrong? Or could it be worse: do we start out nasty, selfish devils, who need our parents, teachers, and religions to whip us into shape?

The only way to know for sure, of course, is to ask a baby. But until recently, it's been hard to persuade them to open up and share their secrets. Enter the baby lab.

This is the creature at the center of the greatest philosophical, moral, and religious debates about the nature of man: the human baby. They don't do much, can't talk, can't write, can't expound at length about their moral philosophies. But does that mean they don't have one? The philosopher Rousseau considered babies "perfect idiots...Knowing nothing," and Yale psychologist Karen Wynn, director of the Infant Cognition Center here, the baby lab, says for most of its history, her field agreed.

Lesley Stahl: Didn't we just think that these creatures at three months and even six months were basically just little blobs?

Karen Wynn: Oh, sure. I mean, if you look at them, they--

Lesley Stahl: Yeah.

Karen Wynn: They kinda look like little, I mean, cute little blobs. But they can't do all the things that an older child can. They can't even do the things that a dog or a pigeon or a rat can.

No pulling levers for treats or running mazes for these study subjects. But they can watch puppet shows. And Wynn is part of a new wave of researchers who have discovered seemingly simple ways to probe what's really going on in those adorable little heads. We watched as Wynn and her team asked a question that 20 years ago might have gotten her laughed out of her field. Does Wesley here, at the ripe old age of 5 months, know the difference between right and wrong?

Wesley watches as the puppet in the center struggles to open up a box with a toy inside. The puppy in the yellow shirt comes over and lends a hand. Then the scene repeats itself, but this time the puppy in the blue shirt comes and slams the box shut. Nice behavior...mean behavior...at least to our eyes. But is that how a 5-month-old sees it, and does he have a preference?

Annie: Wesley, do you remember these guys from the show?

To find out, a researcher who doesn't know which puppet was nice and which was mean, offers Wesley a choice.

Annie: Who do you like?

He can't answer, but he can reach... (reaches for nice puppet)

Annie: That one?

Wesley chose the good guy and he wasn't alone.

More than three fourths of the babies tested reached for the nice puppet. Wynn tried it out on even younger babies, 3 month olds, who can't control their arms enough to reach. But they can vote with their eyes, since research has shown that even very young babies look longer at things they like. Daisy here looked at the mean puppet for 5 seconds; then switched to the nice one for 33.

Karen Wynn: Babies, even at three months, looked towards the nice character and looked hardly at all, much, much, much shorter times, towards the unhelpful character.

Lesley Stahl: So basically as young as three months old, we human beings show a preference for nice people over mean people.
(...)
Continued here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57551557/babies-help-unlock-the-origins-of-morality/?pageNum=2

Unfortunately some individuals can learn to appear being nice to get an advantage of this inborn trait... Yes, i am referring to psychopaths here :( The bright side is they are only 1% of so called general population :)

[Snoweagle]

Psychopaths are merely a product of their up bringing.
The problem relates to the point that caused their lack of empathy or general "nastiness".
At around twelve weeks of a human pregnancy the foetus starts to develop its sentient brain, which is dependent on download from the mother. Not only will the foetus interpret the mothers own faculties but also ALL emotional experiences during the remainder of the pregnancy. So if a pregnant mother is tortured for the duration then those emotional traits will also manifest within the child once activated during normal growth. They will not naturally occur as the normal human psyche doesn't accept them as natural however once they are activated they do feel normal to the sufferer.

Likewise, during adult entrapment, the Freemason paedophile trap, requires an individual seeking promotion to participate as refusal has often fatally dire consequences. When normal placid law abiding individuals are turned in this manner, joining a brotherhood of shared secrecy, the fear of retribution by owning to ones guilt destroys moral judgement.

Returning to baby lab topic which I personally find extremely distasteful, as what the article ignores is the fact that under Agenda 21 and the depopulation program, ownership of children is being sought for the state to manage. Yet the article glows with affirmation this study, which should be the prerogative of the parents, who in this day and age are forced by the state to surrender their children thereby denying the enjoinder of family psyche.

This is a global problem enforced by the United Nations.

[Snookie]

I have read that psychopaths comprise 3 - 6% of the population, most likely this ranges in severity.

[Flash]

Are we witnessing a Spring ice thaw maybe? :) Another msm article on spirituality...:dizzy::confused:;)

Previous was here (June 14, 2012) :)
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57453393/mindfulness-to-reduce-stress-becoming-more-popular/?tag=stack
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?46388-MSM-CBSNEWS--Mindfulness-to-reduce-stress-becoming-more-popular

Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57551557/born-good-babies-help-unlock-the-origins-of-morality/

Babies help unlock the origins of morality
November 18, 2012 7:55 PM

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/11/18/Baby_Wide_620x350.jpg

The following script is from "The Baby Lab" which aired on Nov. 18, 2012. Lesley Stahl is the correspondent. Shari Finkelstein, producer.

It's a question people have asked for as long as there have been people: are human beings inherently good? Are we born with a sense of morality or do we arrive blank slates, waiting for the world to teach us right from wrong? Or could it be worse: do we start out nasty, selfish devils, who need our parents, teachers, and religions to whip us into shape?

The only way to know for sure, of course, is to ask a baby. But until recently, it's been hard to persuade them to open up and share their secrets. Enter the baby lab.

This is the creature at the center of the greatest philosophical, moral, and religious debates about the nature of man: the human baby. They don't do much, can't talk, can't write, can't expound at length about their moral philosophies. But does that mean they don't have one? The philosopher Rousseau considered babies "perfect idiots...Knowing nothing," and Yale psychologist Karen Wynn, director of the Infant Cognition Center here, the baby lab, says for most of its history, her field agreed.

Lesley Stahl: Didn't we just think that these creatures at three months and even six months were basically just little blobs?

Karen Wynn: Oh, sure. I mean, if you look at them, they--

Lesley Stahl: Yeah.

Karen Wynn: They kinda look like little, I mean, cute little blobs. But they can't do all the things that an older child can. They can't even do the things that a dog or a pigeon or a rat can.

No pulling levers for treats or running mazes for these study subjects. But they can watch puppet shows. And Wynn is part of a new wave of researchers who have discovered seemingly simple ways to probe what's really going on in those adorable little heads. We watched as Wynn and her team asked a question that 20 years ago might have gotten her laughed out of her field. Does Wesley here, at the ripe old age of 5 months, know the difference between right and wrong?

Wesley watches as the puppet in the center struggles to open up a box with a toy inside. The puppy in the yellow shirt comes over and lends a hand. Then the scene repeats itself, but this time the puppy in the blue shirt comes and slams the box shut. Nice behavior...mean behavior...at least to our eyes. But is that how a 5-month-old sees it, and does he have a preference?

Annie: Wesley, do you remember these guys from the show?

To find out, a researcher who doesn't know which puppet was nice and which was mean, offers Wesley a choice.

Annie: Who do you like?

He can't answer, but he can reach... (reaches for nice puppet)

Annie: That one?

Wesley chose the good guy and he wasn't alone.

More than three fourths of the babies tested reached for the nice puppet. Wynn tried it out on even younger babies, 3 month olds, who can't control their arms enough to reach. But they can vote with their eyes, since research has shown that even very young babies look longer at things they like. Daisy here looked at the mean puppet for 5 seconds; then switched to the nice one for 33.

Karen Wynn: Babies, even at three months, looked towards the nice character and looked hardly at all, much, much, much shorter times, towards the unhelpful character.

Lesley Stahl: So basically as young as three months old, we human beings show a preference for nice people over mean people.
(...)
Continued here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57551557/babies-help-unlock-the-origins-of-morality/?pageNum=2

Unfortunately some individuals can learn to appear being nice to get an advantage of this inborn trait... Yes, i am referring to psychopaths here :( The bright side is they are only 1% of so called general population :)

They are 4% my friend, 4% (3 to 6% depending on severity, for an average of 4%). The 1% are the psychopaths with all the money.

[Flash]

Psychopaths are merely a product of their up bringing.
The problem relates to the point that caused their lack of empathy or general "nastiness".
At around twelve weeks of a human pregnancy the foetus starts to develop its sentient brain, which is dependent on download from the mother. Not only will the foetus interpret the mothers own faculties but also ALL emotional experiences during the remainder of the pregnancy. So if a pregnant mother is tortured for the duration then those emotional traits will also manifest within the child once activated during normal growth. They will not naturally occur as the normal human psyche doesn't accept them as natural however once they are activated they do feel normal to the sufferer..

Any study or anything where you took this information that you could provide please? I am pretty sure there is also a genetic component to some of the psychopaths, this is why I am asking. Secondly, some children who had had extremely cold moms are still living deep emotions. i would really want to see the studies for pregnancies and emotional imprint, on a personal basis curiosity and for the sake of understanding futher.

[modwiz]

Psychopaths are merely a product of their up bringing.
The problem relates to the point that caused their lack of empathy or general "nastiness".
At around twelve weeks of a human pregnancy the foetus starts to develop its sentient brain, which is dependent on download from the mother. Not only will the foetus interpret the mothers own faculties but also ALL emotional experiences during the remainder of the pregnancy. So if a pregnant mother is tortured for the duration then those emotional traits will also manifest within the child once activated during normal growth. They will not naturally occur as the normal human psyche doesn't accept them as natural however once they are activated they do feel normal to the sufferer..

Any study or anything where you took this information that you could provide please? I am pretty sure there is also a genetic component to some of the psychopaths, this is why I am asking. Secondly, some children who had had extremely cold moms are still living deep emotions. i would really want to see the studies for pregnancies and emotional imprint, on a personal basis curiosity and for the sake of understanding futher.

Good call, IMO, Flash. There is nothing mere (definitely merde, LOL) about psychopaths to begin with and I find it hard to accept that it is merely a product of their upbringing.

[Snoweagle]

Any study or anything where you took this information that you could provide please? I am pretty sure there is also a genetic component to some of the psychopaths, this is why I am asking. Secondly, some children who had had extremely cold moms are still living deep emotions. i would really want to see the studies for pregnancies and emotional imprint, on a personal basis curiosity and for the sake of understanding futher.

Your second point emphasises exactly what I am implying though I profess this is the way of the human psyche from twelve weeks through to death. Doesn't this now make the discussion circular?

[Snoweagle]

Good call, IMO, Flash. There is nothing mere (definitely merde, LOL) about psychopaths to begin with and I find it hard to accept that it is merely a product of their upbringing.

Well, "merely" from my intended use was intended to suggest that each of us, mankind, are able to adapt to change if by doing so endorses a complementary natural environment to which we are suited.

Consider the case of a healer. Does not a healer treat the infirm to return them to natural well being. After all does not the patient merely have a currently untreated health problem?

[Arrowwind]

Unfortunately some individuals can learn to appear being nice to get an advantage of this inborn trait... Yes, i am referring to psychopaths here :( The bright side is they are only 1% of so called general population :)


I think the percentage of psychopaths is much much higher if you go by this definition. Many many people present themselves as "nice guys" when in fact they are endeavoring to take some kind of advantage either socially, economically or sexually, with disregard for the individuals that they encounter and interface with, including family members as well as friends and work associates.

a psychopathic psycosis is not necessary to present psycopathic mild to moderate behavior.

[Flash]

Good call, IMO, Flash. There is nothing mere (definitely merde, LOL) about psychopaths to begin with and I find it hard to accept that it is merely a product of their upbringing.

Well, "merely" from my intended use was intended to suggest that each of us, mankind, are able to adapt to change if by doing so endorses a complementary natural environment to which we are suited.



Consider the case of a healer. Does not a healer treat the infirm to return them to natural well being. After all does not the patient merely have a currently untreated health problem?

SnowEagle, is this coming from your own deduction, for discussion sake and to investigate further, or is this coming from some studies you have seen? If the latter, which ones?

Thank you

[Snoweagle]

Any living being is part of a complex relational network involving each and all of the physical, chemical and biological agencies, factors and processes constituting its outer environment and interacting at all times with its own internal constituents. Because this implies a continuous modification of living conditions, the basic properties of life include the capability to perceive relevant stimuli, that is, modifications likely to affect an organisms internal equilibrium, survival or reproductive potential, whether positively or negatively, and to react appropriately, and in such a way to maintain the variability of the internal environment within tolerable limits (homeostasis). . . .
Emotional development
. . . Because of there adaptive values emotions must have evolved relatively early. In fact, their expression is rooted in old parts of the brain: stem, mid brain, thalamus, amygdala, hypothalamus. . . .related to higher cognitive functions such as perception and thought. . . . Paulo Parisi; The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Human Growth and Development; 6.4, 253-255pp
By way of example to support my post from a definitive source. (buy or download the book)

Furthermore, I am well read in the sciences and can recommend the Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology parts A and B (available at your library, though since 2006 both parts were merged into one).
http://www.eps.ac.uk/index.php/quarterly-journal-of-experimental-psychology

It was my greatest pleasure employed as Systems Typographer and Reader for five years where this was merely one of forty (plus countless works scientific, technical, medical, mathematics, classical, etc; no novels) such academic works I would have to read daily. And I was paid for it, bliss:-)

Further more, my post was based on "post reply" method, invoking my perceived deduction to the disgraceful imposition of "lab babies" away from the natural nurture of the host, mother.

[MargueriteBee]

I had a psychopath for a supervisor. We all called her "The Troll", because she walked around the office shaking her head saying, "Heads are gonna roll, heads are gonna roll".

[grannyfranny100]

Psychopaths are merely a product of their up bringing.
Please provide sources for your viewpoint that runs against most recent research which shows defects in psychopathic brains with CAT scans. Even studies of twins raised separately, show a biological underpinning. http://www.manipulative-people.com/is-psychopathy-genetic/

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

Hi

Let us stop arguing about source or quantity or level of psychopathic personality. I am sorry i've made my remark in the OP :( Unintentionally i've created a distraction for us from the main topic and the main topic is that 96% (on average ;) ) of humans are born as sentient beings. Or at least are ready made to be sentient if encouraged enough and provided with an environment prepared with Love :) Let us focus on Light built-in in Great Majority Of Us. Love can defend itself from darkness. You can not destroy darkness. Acknowledge it and Shine Your Heart With Love on it. Transcend it With Your Light into More Light :) Trust Your Light And Have Faith In It :)

[Flash]

Robert, love defends itself from darkness if it admits darkness exist. Most human beings (96% on average) cannot even imagine some people DO NO HAVE GUILT AT ALL, do NOT HAVE EMPATHY AT ALL, but are extremely good at acting it all.

When there is no empathy and no guilt, the only thing that remains to make life interesting is thrill (automatic body/brain reaction based on excitement) and power.

Inducing fear in a lawfully condemned situation induces thrill. Being a bankster stealing around without getting caught induced thrill, having power over others induces a sens of existing.
Manipulating to get power induces both thrill and power. To me, psychopaths are empty shells and they feel it. In order to be able to function in society, they learn to copy, without feeling it, the behavior of the 96%, so well that most of us get caught in the lie.

The other thing is that they have very little fear (except for fear of pain or dying), they are in a mind game. This allows them to work on us over and over again, relentlessly, to have the thrills and sense of existence always renewed.

In this context, the problem is education the 96% about psychopathy, so that they first admit its existence, second admit that the 96% easily get fooled, third start seeing the mechanisme, fourth start to refuse to get into those games, learn to say no, and sixth learn not to get corrupted or tempted by the game (it does effect on regular people a lot, which still gives a further edge to the psychopath).

So, in conclusion, looking at the 96%able and willing to love, great, it has to be done to put the target objective in place, however, knowing about the 4% and how to counteract them is also a must - they must start losing at the game by us not participating in it, unwillingly and unconsciously. Extremely tough to do.

EDIT; I have no reading to give, but I also read a lot on the topic and experienced a few real tough encounters.

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

Flash, all my info about psychopaths was taken from Fishhed movie (the 1% figure too)
http://www.fisheadmovie.com/watch-the-movie (password is: fhmovie )

Generally i get the point about the issue. It is like those people lacked their limbic system. A middle layer of the brain responsible for higher feelings and greatly connected with the Heart. Like the reptilian part of the brain and neocortex were left. I agree with the need to educate the 96%.

I wonder if it would be possible to enforce some psychological tests for people who aspire for management positions in businesses or for public office. If some person responsible for child care or on her job position has unlimited contact with children he gets tested psychologicaly AFTER she is catched abusing children sexually. Why not test BEFORE something bad happens?

In Poland if one wants to be a professional driver (taxi, truck, bus etc) she have to go through some psychological tests to qualify for such job. So it is allowable in some cases to test somebody's personality before she is allowed into the post...

But there is a problem. We can not dismiss possibility that some psychopath will be responsible for administering such test... Then what? Who will verify him in the first place? What if psychiatrist enrolled to asses psychopathy in others is a psychopath himself?

In the movie was a suggestion for a simple cure: kindness. "Each act of kindness spreads outwards and helps defeat all the rubbish these people perpetrate." I believe you can not fake genuine (unconditional) kindness. No matter how you are "smart".

And we are back at focusing on The Light. After acknowledging (not disssmising) existence of the darkness :)

Darkness can not diminish Light by itself. It has no substance. Darkness grows when Light decides to diminish itself. And Light can decides to Shine Brighter. And Brighter And Brighter.

When i drive i observe that more and more drivers let others merge in quickly. I do it whenever i can. Even when in hurry (strangely i am always on time :confused:). I try to not exaggerate and respect those driving behind me. And drivers who merge in blinks briefly their flashers to thank. I blink too :) And there is less and less road rage despite there are heavy traffic jams due to rush hours and road works.

Let's simply be nice to each other. Unconditionally :)

[Flash]

kindness works with you and I , but it does not work with them, they will abuse it. The problem is that we, the 96%, are always trying to repair the damages they have created, on the planet, in companies, in schools, etc. Kindness for those harmed, yes, kindness for the psychopaths does not work (although they will try to make you feel guilty if you are not kind).


Let's simply be nice to each other. Unconditionally

as long as this is not used and abused. This is where the problem is Robert, even you are thinking that there is a solution with kindness.

The is an excellent thread on the topic in another site which is: http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?4041-Interesting-One-Hour-Program-The-Labyrinthe-of-the-Psychopath-and-the-Intraspecies-Predators on nexus 2012, by Akhenaten.

the thread has 45 pages exclusively on psychopathy.

Thanks for the movie reference and the password, I will definitely look at it.

Can psychopathy be tested: definitely. Will it be accepted socially? Probably not until we either kill or almost kill the planet because of being managed by psychopaths.

[Snoweagle]

Psychopaths are merely a product of their up bringing.
Please provide sources for your viewpoint that runs against most recent research which shows defects in psychopathic brains with CAT scans. Even studies of twins raised separately, show a biological underpinning. http://www.manipulative-people.com/is-psychopathy-genetic/

Sorry Grannyfanny100, am not embarking on sourcing or searching for counter discussions to specific articles though I will offer my viewpoints based on valid references whenever I can. What galls me most is the quality of research currently conducted in many of the sciences lacks qualitative discernment. Just as the article you have proposed which within the psychological world is valid science yet means something entirely different to me.

recent research which shows defects in psychopathic brains with CAT scans
Take a diagnosed psychopath, stick his brain in a CAT scan will highlight abnormalities based on the "standard" healthy brain. Thats what we would expect isn't it?
However, consider a case of a stroke victim, where the brain has suffered some minor damage. When that person is CAT scanned the doctors can identify the scale of damage and prescribe a passive or active prognosis for restitution of good health. After two years of recovery a second CAT scan, assuming healthy lifestyle for the sufferer, will reveal a healed but maybe scarred repair.
Consider breaking your arm. X rays immediately tell the doctor the extent, he resets and within seven weeks all is healed. Once healed you do not return for another x ray do you?

The problem with science is they can only state facts based on empirical evidence. Without hard evidence there is no science. However, the problem we now face these days is in the use of statistical evaluations inferring real potential to potential considered events to determine further avenues of investigation or experiment. By example, there is now intent to vaccinate the foetus during pregnancy before birth because of some statistical affirmation from electronic machine vision (ultrasound). How ruddy absurd is that?

All I have is an opinion based on what I know, what I believe to be true and what I can share with others. Science is minefield of good and bad, I like to think mostly good, most of the time.

[Snoweagle]

Being a bankster stealing around without getting caught induced thrill, having power over others induces a sens of existing.
Manipulating to get power induces both thrill and power. To me, psychopaths are empty shells and they feel it. In order to be able to function in society, they learn to copy, without feeling it, the behavior of the 96%, so well that most of us get caught in the lie.

Considering this example we have a Banker that has immunity, impunity and authority over his/her domain. Corporate safeguards require no moral virtue to life yet life is its core resource (slavery/fiefdom/dependence). Shareholders ensure his/her discipline to profit over humanity and secret societies command entrapment.

From our perspective we perceive bankers as psychopaths, yet remove them from that environment, taking away their protections and they will, in time, meld with the rest of us.
(when Geoffrey Archer (UK politician) went to prison in the 90s, he came out a very different person, as only inside do you understand the real meaning of "respect")

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

kindness works with you and I , but it does not work with them, they will abuse it. The problem is that we, the 96%, are always trying to repair the damages they have created, on the planet, in companies, in schools, etc. Kindness for those harmed, yes, kindness for the psychopaths does not work (although they will try to make you feel guilty if you are not kind).


Let's simply be nice to each other. Unconditionally

as long as this is not used and abused. This is where the problem is Robert, even you are thinking that there is a solution with kindness.

The is an excellent thread on the topic in another site which is: http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?4041-Interesting-One-Hour-Program-The-Labyrinthe-of-the-Psychopath-and-the-Intraspecies-Predators on nexus 2012, by Akhenaten.

the thread has 45 pages exclusively on psychopathy.

Thanks for the movie reference and the password, I will definitely look at it.

Can psychopathy be tested: definitely. Will it be accepted socially? Probably not until we either kill or almost kill the planet because of being managed by psychopaths.
Flash, i do not insist that kindness is for them. To help them become whole. I agree they are not salvageable and lost to the rest of humanity.

I mean that kindness is for 96%. To help us wake-up, reinforce our inner Light and encourage us to defend ourselves from darkness. Psychopaths don't get kindness because they lack vital ingredient IMHO. Which is empathy and sentience. The similarity of 96% and the remaining 4% is indifference toward darkness.

The difference is ability of 96% to light our Light if encouraged and transcend darkness. That is a point of the article quoted in the OP IMHO :)

[Flash]

Got it Robert.

Talking of our light, here someting that happened quite by chance to a group of baboons. All the psychopathes of the group died off, those that were always biting, stealing, starting war, died because of rotten food (they ate it all) and the troup was left with the softer ones. It completely changed their society form one of competition and reduced food intake to one of cooperation with food for everyone, much more happiness and reduced stress (the stress hormone samples were taken).

The one hour video really worths being looked at, very interesting. We can extrapolate what would happen to us without the psychopaths around.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYG0ZuTv5rs&feature=player_embedded


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QZcTvFqzxA0

[Arrowwind]

I find it interesting that in this discussion psychopaths are fully separated out from the rest of the 96%.

All these tendencies that a psychopath holds is found in many people to one degree or another. Leaving behind these tendencies is the process of becoming fully human and it is an evolutionary process over many lifetimes. Kindness can only help when a degree of self revelation has already occured. Prior to that, kindness is an irrelevant experience to them. It does not even register within the psyche.

In my world view, "psychopaths" lie on a spectrum of human potential in social interaction and personal self integration.
Diagnosed psychopaths are on the bottom of the heap, only because they got caught and diagnosed.

Here is another article that examines the issue of psychopaths in positions of corporate power.
http://hbr.org/2004/10/executive-psychopaths/ar/1 (http://hbr.org/2004/10/executive-psychopaths/ar/1)

clearly there are psychopaths involved in our banking industries as well as our war machine industries, and our pharmaceutical industires encompassing those who would rather make a buck and see people die from a long drawn out disease as patients purchase their medicines all along their way to their death, rather than get well. In these industries that likely are headed by people of varing degrees of psychopathy are their enablers, those with lessor psychopathic tendency who suport such industry to maintain a paycheck, to gain professional recognition and to enhance stock portfolios and values, or simply to make a mortage payment.

Here are a few famous psychopaths...

Dick Cheney is a living example of someone with psychopathic tendency.
Donald Rumsfeld
Henry Kissinger
Marquis De Sade
Hitler
Pol Pot
Elizabeth Bathory
Vlad the Impaler
President Johsnson
Benjamin Netenyahu
Rod Blagojevich - just narcissitic or psychopathic too?
Newt Gingrich http://thepropheticlight.com/blog/?p=1003


here's an interesting article from Forbes Magazine inferring that psycopahty is a spectrum disorder.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/06/14/why-some-psychopaths-make-great-ceos/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/06/14/why-some-psychopaths-make-great-ceos/)


The only cure is self revelation. It cannot be cured with kindness but with self revelation.
They have to SEE the manipulation that they do and other limiting social behaivors and how it obstructs their very existence from advancement.
Of course, because they hold psychopathic tendency and many psychopaths have associated narcissistic behavior disorders it is impossible for them you heal themselves, to SEE anything and take self responsibility, at least in this life time, perhaps in any lifetime.

In my book, those who orchestrated 9/11 are psycopaths as well as those who orchestrated the War in Iraq, ie George Bush and his minions.

George Bush in a dialogue with a leader of a South American nation said that they way to boost your economy is to make war.
If that isnt psychopathic I dont know what is.

It is also my opinion that sociopaths can de-evolve into psychopaths given opportune circumstances... and the crossing of the line from one to the other is not infrequent amongst those so inclined.


"While many political leaders will deny the assessment regarding their similarities with serial killers and other career criminals, it is part of a psychopathic profile that may be used in assessing the behaviors of many officials and lawmakers at all levels of government."...Jim Kouri, vice president of the National Assn. of Chiefs of Police

I would also add that there are people who have selective empathy. They have empathy for those who serve them in some way but not towards others. Perhaps these could be listed as borderline psychopaths or something similar, but I think that they are out there in droves.

there is an interesting video at the end of the article found on this page:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/psychopath/

This is of particular interest to me at this time because I think I am dealing with a bonafide psychopath who is trying to push a land developement in my neighborhood that is ill designed and on wet lands. There is a good chance we have linked this person to fraudulent documentations on public record. We intend to send this person to jail. The history is long and certainly reflects a psychopathic profile throughout their life including dancing naked in a public bar, lying on real estate documents, misleading clients, multiple wealthy mates, modeling in gun magazines, prostitution, alcholism, public violent outbursts, and indifference to public opinion and condemnation.

[Flash]

Arrowind: In my world view, "psychopaths" lie on a spectrum of human potential in social interaction and personal self integration.

Lots of personnality disorders are on a spectrum. I fact, they usually follow the Bell curve, for which the deviation is more or less large, depending on the disorder.

The 4% is a the end of the spectrum, the bottom hand. On the opposite, you would have people extremely empathetic to a point of having problems to live in society.

This 4% is most probably irrecuperable, while the remaining 96% can be reworked if needed, of course with much more difficulties if someoneis at the 6% level.

To me, sociopath are psychopaths that do not have a cruelty side, or psychopaths that have not been caught. In my idea, all psychopaths are by definition narcissistics, but not all narcissits are psychopaths. Therefore, psychopaths and those with very strong tendencies cannot be recuperated.

Netanayu is definitely psychopath, I was listening at the video of him speaking at home with the family, explaining how and why he would attack Gaza, all the psychopathic signs were there (no guilt, no empathy, completely turned toward his own gains through what he perceives as Israel gains, etc.)

Both Bush as well, and all those you listed Arrowing.

I had a year with a group of young in which I considered at least two to be on the fringe of psychopathy (about in the 6 to 10%) (without the dirty killer aspect) and one of my targer for one of these was to have him blush at least once, so that he would develop a bit of shame or guilt. It was a start for consciousness to have a slim chance to pierce.

[Arrowwind]

[QUOTE]
I had a year with a group of young in which I considered at least two to be on the fringe of psychopathy (about in the 6 to 10%) (without the dirty killer aspect) and one of my targer for one of these was to have him blush at least once, so that he would develop a bit of shame or guilt. It was a start for consciousness to have a slim chance to pierce.

I remember that my first son at a young age had no shame or guilt about anything. It astounded me and scared me. We went through some maneuvers to rectify the situation.

[Mark]

From the research that I've done on the issue Psychopaths experience a lesser range of emotivity than most empathic people. If that is so, is it possible to teach people with that disorder to experience deeper emotions?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYemnKEKx0c

[Flash]

No it is not Rakhyt. Not for the 4%. You may enhance what is already there, you cannot create new specialise cells that are absent to start with. If the emotional range is small but existend, you may enhance it to get a bit better (although never at the level of a normal human being - the 50% - is the range was very small), but if the behavior is non existent, you would have to have the body and genes create the cells to start with, which, in todays technology, seems unrealistic. Psychopaths will stop when they are on the fringe to be caught and be punish (some even there won't stop), so constant surveillance has to take place.

Other examples of anomalies that cannot be corrected, anomalies that do not create havoc for others, but for which behaviors could be slightly improved: down syndrome, foetal alcool syndrome, dysphasia and dyslexia, some forms of autism, etc. It has been noticed that in most autistic children, the mirror neurones are either completely absent, in which case the autism is very severe, or in little number, in which case the autism is less severe. More mirror neurons, less autism. Research is being made to see how we could force the body in creating mirror neurons, but we are not there yet. However, autistic people do have self awareness and they know that they are living with a brain/behavior impediment.

I think it is the same for psychopaths, they have some neurons and/or neurological pathways that are deficient and it cannot be corrected with the actual knowledge base we have. The difference being that psychopaths do function in society and are often unaware of the ir impediment. Worse, their impediment allows them to get power and to manipulate without guilt, making them quite successful in a society where cooperation is not the norm, but competition is, often brutal competition. So psychopaths have about zero change to seek help, because being a psychopaths has major benefits. The day we will acccept seeing them for what they are and refuse to collaborate with them, the day being psychopaths makes one the poorest of the poors, they will seek help.

Check my monkey's video, it is truly instructive in how psychopaths work in society and the impact they have, and which kind of societe emerge when they are absent. Even if it is monkeys, the extrapolation for human can be quite direct.

Edit: teaching them to experience deeper emotions equates, for them, to teach them how to imitate deeper emotions and wider range. They do not live it, they just imitate enough to fool us. I have seen psychopaths cry, all women around being so touched because "a man was crying" (which is the hidden desire of every woman it seems lol) and ready to help without analysing the situation, believe me, they can act it well. I was looking cruel by not minding the crying when I knew very well I had a full fledge manipulator in front of me. I could name dozens of emotional, very well learned, behaviors like this that I have seen.

[Arrowwind]

There are cases of autism that are reported cured with the use of homeopathy. And there are significant cases of behavorial disorder that look a lot like psychopathy cured also with homeopathy treatment. When you read the remedy description clearly is presents aspects of the psychopathic picture. These cases cured are predominantly in children so no, the psychopathic diagnosis is not officially there but the behavior demonstrates a strong liklihood for development in that direction.


See the remedy Strontium and as written about by leading homeopath, Paul Herscu.. It would be especially interesting to note how these psychopaths behave as children before there is a known issue. There are a number of other remedies that contened with significant behavior problems that generally will take the child and family into significant stress due various kinds of antisocial behaviors and eventually medication and instutitional therapy as last recourse. Homepathy has helped some of these cases signficiantly in children.... much much harder to make success with adults.
https://www.homeopathic.com/cms-global/shoppingcart/ViewProduct.do?productId=296

Homeopathy demonstrates that in what ever is going on cellularly in such extreme conditions where cells are not correctly functioning and not even present, they can be genetically turned on to grow and perform.

[Flash]

There are cases of autism that are reported cured with the use of homeopathy. And there are significant cases of behavorial disorder that look a lot like psychopathy cured also with homeopathy treatment. When you read the remedy description clearly is presents aspects of the psychopathic picture. These cases cured are predominantly in children so no, the psychopathic diagnosis is not officially there but the behavior demonstrates a strong liklihood for development in that direction.


See the remedy Strontium and as written about by leading homeopath, Paul Herscu.. It would be especially interesting to note how these psychopaths behave as children before there is a known issue. There are a number of other remedies that contened with significant behavior problems that generally will take the child and family into significant stress due various kinds of antisocial behaviors and eventually medication and instutitional therapy as last recourse. Homepathy has helped some of these cases signficiantly in children.... much much harder to make success with adults.
https://www.homeopathic.com/cms-global/shoppingcart/ViewProduct.do?productId=296

Homeopathy demonstrates that in what ever is going on cellularly in such extreme conditions where cells are not correctly functioning and not even present, they can be genetically turned on to grow and perform.

Interesting because some experiments have been successful with autism, namely injecting oxytocin which is the attachement hormones, to see if empathy would developed further. It seems that 1/3 of the chldren showed improvement in the empathy scale, as if their brain mirror neurons had developed further or the interconnection amongst them improved. The other 2/3 did not show improvement. I bet anything that the 1/3 that showed improvements were nearer the middle of the Bell curve (not as effected at the other to strart with).

This would therefore go in the same direction as the homeopathy for children. I would very much like to know how those psychopaths behaved as children as well.

A little hint on Bush junior I heard when I was in Dallas: one day, mama Bush, papa Bush and junior are in a huge party in that beautiful old hotel I was staying at. Party is over and everybody have to leave, but some argument started between Bush jr and Bush Sr. Bush jr being very unhappy took his bike and drove his bike at 1 mile per hour or about in front of his parent's limo. No choice, the limo had to go at turtle pace while everybody noted how obnoxious the offspring was.

When I heard the story from an hotel employee, I thought "oh that is how those children behave" then the hotel employee added: "you know, this was incredible that Bush jr would still act that way at 26 years old". Oups, this one was therefore already grown up in the body, brain neurons already wired wrong.

Anything in homeopathy for dysphasia (partial aphasia with some light form of ADD and now light muscular dysfunction) I cannot avoid asking for my own - she is 15. Thanks

[Arrowwind]

Anything in homeopathy for dysphasia (partial aphasia with some light form of ADD and now light muscular dysfunction) I cannot avoid asking for my own - she is 15. Thanks

I cannot say a specific rememdy for this but yes, there is the possibility that homeopathy can help. you would need to find a highly skilled homeopath with this type of experience.
http://hpathy.com/homeopathy-papers/classical-homeopathy-and-autism/

Do a search with key words: 'Homeopathy autism add' and look through the sites that come up as well as youtube videos.

if it were me I'd likely seek out the Ullmans and do what it takes to get there. It has not been beyond me to fly my kids cross country to see a homeoapthic doc when I thought that correct treatment would impact the total quality of their life.

[Flash]

From the research that I've done on the issue Psychopaths experience a lesser range of emotivity than most empathic people. If that is so, is it possible to teach people with that disorder to experience deeper emotions?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYemnKEKx0c

this is really a neat video, fun, pleasant, and it explains very well the dilemna we, empathetic people, face. I wonder why the journalist did not go take a drink in a bar with the guy??? :p

Not wanting him as a friend maybe???