In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia [Archive]

iceni tribe

28th November 2012, 12:26

In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

Hi folks , the purpose of this thread is to share my insights and hopefully gain some from more knowing individuals ,my background is 30 years’ experience in the building trade specializing in stone work (chalk, flint and sandstone) but give me a piece of land and I can build you a house from start to finish.

I apologise for any bad grammar or spelling from the offset, as time served on the building site equals less time in the classroom. Please feel free to comment as we take a look around Peru and Bolivia’s ancient sites.

Day 1 was a long eight hour bus ride from Lima down to Nazca, Apparently we passed an observation tower but it was too dark to find, or use.

Day 2
Early start to the Nazca lines, the wind picks up after 11am and you get a rougher ride and if it picks up to much you don’t get to fly, it was also good to hear that their safety record has improved since the last crash.
There are loads of images of the Nazca lines on line, so I won’t bother with my lot , you only get 30 minutes in the air and by the time I had missed my first half dozen I just decided to take it all in rather than watch it through a view finder.
The pilot shouts look left or right and then banks the plane over to see the object he’s shouting about here is a look right moment.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/nazca/P1000064.jpg

Here is that all allusive tower from last night

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/nazca/P1000093.jpg

On our next buzz past I wondered how much you can see from that tower.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/nazca/P1000095.jpg

Well they didn’t call it an observation tower for nothing and you can see quite a bit as it happens.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/nazca/peruwendyscamera109.jpg

The lines are formed by removing dark rocks from the white sand and mistakes could be easily rectified. My conclusion is they are easy to reproduce with a tower and the bigger the drawing the higher the tower, or you add more towers. Why they did it is another matter.
Next stop Cachucha home to the Nazca.
The dust track to this location is normally accomplished by 4 wheeled drive or 9 seater dune buggy ,not a coach which was my unfortunate mode of transport ,still good fortune was with us and the driver juggled between going fast to glide over the quick sand and steering madly to avoid tipping over.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/nazca/P1000138.jpg

The Cachucha is an adobe mud brick complex built between 100AD to 600AD, and unfortunately there’s not much left due to the extensive plundering from the Spanish conquest (1533 AD)and this is still going on to this present day. We had to view this site from a distance as there is still a dig in progress and excess is limited.
On the way back we had our first encounter with the elongated skulls first in a Nazca graveyard and then in a small museum.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/skulls/P1000112.jpg

iceni tribe

28th November 2012, 12:28

Day 3

Traveling up to Ica first stop another observation tower

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/nazca/P1000178.jpg

And here are the figures seen from said tower.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/nazca/P1000174-1.jpg

Personally I wasn’t impressed; these figures could have been done yesterday and the place screamed tourist trap.
Onto the Ica museum where the largest elongated skulls are kept.
I managed one photo before the curator screamed “no photo’s no photo’s” and proceeded to keep her beady eyes on me, I did manage to sneak some film of the displays but I was disappointed in having to sneak around like some sort of spy on a mission.
These next two images are thanks to Brien Foerster and this is the largest skull on display.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/skulls/IMG_7860.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/skulls/IMG_7873.jpg

Why you can’t take photographs is a mystery but when I asked the curator she said the order came from above and her job was on the line. There is also a section screened off from the public with wall to ceiling cases of skulls, the rumour has it that these will be spirited away from the museum and into private collectors hands never to see the light of day.
Film footage was taken from behind the screened of portion by a classic diversion tactic pulled off by two determined photographers. I’ve seen the footage and will share when it becomes available.
Next stop the ica stone museum where images of dinosaurs and men are depicted together.

Here courtesy of Brien is a short film from that museum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hDqAr2VAZs&list=UUOavg1FtdeuyUTLz3wmuIKQ&index=4&feature=plcp

here are a couple of images from my camera in the adult section of the museum.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/inca%20stone%20museum/P1000232.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/inca%20stone%20museum/P1000233.jpg

The story of these rocks goes something like this.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/inca%20stone%20museum/P1000220.jpg

This man’s father who was a practicing doctor moved to the area fifty years ago, he started excepting these stones from the locals as payment for his work. They came from a mine not far from Ica where nowadays it is protected by the local mafia who forbid anyone from further searching the area.
To be honest I was thinking who was the most gullible between us both, and it was probably me for paying him to stand their listening to his stories of how ufo’s used the Nazca lines for landing strips.
Enough said about this man as to be honest my eyes glazed over.

Next stop Paracus and then onto Cusco.

RMorgan

28th November 2012, 12:39

Hey mate,

Nice insight about the construction of the Nazca lines.

People keep repeating that it´s impossible to build them from the ground, that they would have to fly to have a correct reference...

Well, your picture from the tower´s perspective shows it all. All you need is to elevate yourself from the ground a bit to have a much clearer visual reference.

Raf.

Cidersomerset

28th November 2012, 12:44

Looks like a great trip , I was about to post this on the David Icke thread i started yesterday but I think it would fit better here ...LOL..

nnoXK8MbH4M

6_2bHBjqUJo

iceni tribe

2nd December 2012, 13:58

thanks RMorgan yes the nazca lines can quite easily be built using a tower .

Day 4
First off, a boat trip to see the Candelabra

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/candelabra/P1000260.jpg

The local guide assured us that this 600 ft geoglyph was constructed by the Inca, but on board we had the curator of the Paracus museum who said” no” it was done by the Paracus people from 1000 BC to 000 AD some 2000 or years or more before the Inca.
Next stop theBallestas islands.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/candelabra/P1000261.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/candelabra/P1000276.jpg

There are some 7 million birds living on these islands and the substantial bird droppings have been collected by the locals for centuries, and used as fertilizer for the main land.
There is also a story that the Spanish went to Easter Island and rounded up nearly all the local males including the royalty and shipped them to these islands to collect the “fertilizer” and only 14 ever returned and not too long ago by all accounts.

Back to topic, as im sure we don’t need to see pictures of birds, penguins and sea lions.
Next stop the museum where we had unprecedented access to photograph ,handle and inspect the elongated skulls.

Here’s a some information so we know what we are looking at.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/skulls/cranium_front.jpg
http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/skulls/cranium_side.jpg

ethmoid bone eye cavity a cranial bone forming part of the eye cavity

frontal bone top of face (forehead) and front top of head one of the major cranial bones that forms the forehead and front top of the head; roughly covers the frontal lobes of the brain

occipital bone the lower rear of the head a major cranial bone at the lower back of the head; covers occipital lobe of the brain

parietal bone top and side of head a major cranial bone that froms part of the top, back, and side of the head and roughly covers the parietal lobe of the brain

sphenoid bone temple and eye orbit area a cranial bone that forms part of the eye cavity

temporal bone side of the head, above the ear a cranial bone on the side of the head that roughly covers the temporal lobe of the brain; it extends down behind the ear towards the jaw

lambdoid suture back of head suture or joint between the occipital and parietal cranial bones

coronal suture top of head between frontal and parietal cranial bones one of the major joints or sutures between the plates of the frontal and parietal cranial bones

glabella center of forehead an area in the center of the forehead, between the eyebrows, that assumes various shapes on different individuals

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/skulls/IMG_2332.jpg
http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/skulls/IMG_2340.jpg
http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/skulls/IMG_2344.jpg

here Brien explains the differences between the skulls far better than me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnERUZNqwbc

iceni tribe

2nd December 2012, 13:59

Day 5. Cusco.

The guidebook tells us that the oldest part of Cusco is built around 1250 AD by the master stonemasons of the Colla ethnic group from the highlands of Lake Titicaca under Manco Capac.
The city was destroyed by civil war, and then the Spanish came along in 1533 and finished the job .
Cusco was then rebuilt using what remained of the older structures, which had two different construction methods.

Convex po- lygonal

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/P1000420.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/P1000419.jpg

This can be achieved by suspending the stone your about to lay above its final resting place, and then using a gauge stick you remove the material from the already laid block to suit the suspended block.

lots of time consuming work and executed quite magnificently.
And then there is Coursed ashlar masonry

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/P1000427.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/P1000428.jpg

These blocks would be worked mainly in a quarry and sent to the building site as a uniformed order for construction.

Here brien takes us from the streets of cusco comparing the stonework.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66x9VLwZaDQ&list=UUOavg1FtdeuyUTLz3wmuIKQ&index=98&feature=plcp

next onto the koricancha
this is said to be the oldest building in cusco built as a royal palace and then turned into a temple , when the Spanish came along they decided to build their church on the top of the koricancha.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/P1000496-1.jpg

Here you can see the crude construction work compared to the original building. Next stop we will go inside the koricancha.

iceni tribe

6th December 2012, 13:43

The Spanish church was mainly destroyed during an earthquake of 1950 revealing the original koricancha ,which seems to be hidden from view .

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/andes520hatun2.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/andes520hatun3.jpg

The oldest parts are constructed of green diorite; they used red andesite in the gardens and gray andesite for the compound walls.
the Mohs Hardness of granite is from 5.5 to 7. The darker the granite, the lesser the quartz, which makes it heavier but less hard.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/P1000436.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/P1000470.jpg

how this type of accuracy is achieved using copper chisels and dolorite hammer stones is beyond me.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/P1000480.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/P1000483.jpg

Here again I will use one of Brien’s videos to show the koricancha in all its glory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDE9WahkFIM&list=UUOavg1FtdeuyUTLz3wmuIKQ&index=30

How this drill hole is achieved using tools unknown at the present is a hot topic of debate.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/P1000450.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/P1000453.jpg

iceni tribe

7th December 2012, 11:42

Day 6 Sachsayhuaman

The guidebook tells us that it was built from limestone in 1460 by 30,000 to 50,000 men taking 50 years using hammers of bronze and very hard stone (hematite and quartzite) and were polished using granite sand, plenty of water, clay and plants until their forms and edges fit exactly with the copies or clay molds that had been taken from the blocks that were just above and below them. They calculate that 15 men can haul a ton block up an incline at altitude 10,000 feet above sea level, and some of these blocks are estimated to weigh over a 100 tons.

The guidebooks also inform us that Sachsayhuaman was taken apart by the conquistadors and used to build the cathedral in Cusco and other Spanish churches in the area from 1537.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/P1000577.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/2012-11-13144503.jpg

Second coarse of blocks ,six from the left appears to be a face carved into this block more noticeable when the image is zoomed in .

The top sections of the 3 ramparts have been removed and the 3 towers that stood 4 stories high and adorned with gold and feathers are gone, probably the dark andesite adobe blocks seen in the streets of Cusco were part of Sachsayhuaman towers, I guess the Spanish didn’t fancy their chances with the bigger blocks 40 years later.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/P1000575.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/P1000651.jpg

Here you can see tool marks .

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/P1000635.jpg

The image of the snake looks almost scooped out especially near the head.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/P1000595.jpg

Tall doorways.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/P1000659.jpg

This channel is about 8ft long and it’s interesting to note the sandy colour of the blocks that haven’t been exposed to weathering.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/P1000662.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/P1000561.jpg

This is the 2nd level and it shows that the natural hill was excavated to form terraces with the blocks laid to form a facade, the stones exposed at this section are worked sufficiently to create a neat joint but the back has just been crudely hacked away.
As is apparent in the photo the wall is backed up with an inside layer with a clay infill in-between.

In my view the guidebooks which I have four, all seem to take their information from the conquistadors who re wrote the Inca history after conquering the Inca people and all of them provide no explanation or any clue as to how this place was built.
Same old thing, history is always written by the victors, other stories have suggested that the Inca actually inherited this site and others and they were built by giants. Others have suggested that the blocks were somehow softened using a plant extract or a lemon/vinegar type acid ,maybe a sample can be extracted from inside the channel I photographed to clear this issue one way or another.
One thing is for sure this is a monumental structure built by real experts in stonework ,not as precise as the koricancha but working with this size of blocks puts it on another level.
a proper mystery to be sure.

Lancelot

7th December 2012, 12:12

Thanks for this post iceni. I share your love of buildings!

What always amazes me when I see those stone walls is how snugly each stone fits into the stones surrounding it. The gap between them is non existant and it strikes me that this type of accuracy could only be achieved on that scale by using a type of laser cutting device. Im not sure that even the finest metal tools would have got anything like the finish we see so common in these structures. What is also striking is the smooth, convex face of each stone, as if they had been worked as well, which of course makes these structures even more staggering.

Its almost as if the walls have been made and shaped like giant blocks of cheese and then turned into stone afterwards...

Shade

7th December 2012, 18:53

here are a couple of images from my camera in the adult section of the museum.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/inca%20stone%20museum/P1000232.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/inca%20stone%20museum/P1000233.jpg

um.... What?

Snakeoil salesmen circa 200AD?

The local men get together for a friendly communal wank, over hot chocolate, biscuits and local gossip-about-town?

not
sure
what

but I appreciate the art.

oh and on a second look... look at the one on the floor in the background of the second one. You can get it to your mouth can you fellas. right. sure. they just want us to think they had really big dongas back then.

"Our dicks were THIS big (motions to a measure of 3 feet long) and here's a carving in a rock to prove it. That's also how we made all those fantastic buildings, if you're wondering."

eaglespirit

7th December 2012, 19:11

Thank You for sharing Your trip openly here with photos, Iceni Tribe : )

I was able to visit a number of sites You have been to before I left Peru in 2010...
I am ever grateful, it was gift to me for doing the volunteer work at a Cultural Center for 6 months.

Shungo! ...from my heart to yours : )

iceni tribe

13th December 2012, 14:06

hi Lancelot/eaglespirit

thanks for the interest , I'm trying to put together some of the most informative images of the trip and as i'm progressing through the sites i am learning more and more , take for instance the notion that the Inca wasn't aware of the wheel , well here's a image from Tiwanaku, outside the museum

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010265.jpg

and this one is just propped up against a wall in the Tiwanaku complex , it has a key stone cut ,so it might have started life as something else before being re cycled into a wheel, also the center hasn't been drilled all the way through, and you can just make out a slight raised portion going through the center.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010295.jpg

whether these wheels/millstones are of Tiwanaku origin or from a later date , your guess is as good as mine.

this next image is from the quarry at ollaytatambo , i wasn't able to see this for myself , but what a wheel is doing half way up a mountain in a Inca quarry is indeed a puzzle , my guess would be that it was used to sharpen the quarry men's chisels ,but why the need for it to be so big is another question , i could be way off and it may not be Inca at all but Spanish .........again your guess is as good as mine.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/davidchildresswheelatquarry-1.jpg

here is a link to pre columbian wheels , so the concept of the wheel was known.

http://www.precolumbianwheels.com/

these wheels are a mystery ,i cant see them being used for transporting stone because the terrain is unsuitable , my hunch would be that their grinding stones and could have quite possibly been powered by a water mechanism .

As for how the stones were cut here's a image from ollaytatambo quarry suggesting that chisels and hammer stones were used to shape the stones.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/davidchildressinquarryatollaltaytambo-1.jpg

and here are two accounts from JEAN-PIERRE PROTZEN,

Who Taught the Inca stonemasons their skills

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/Who%20Taught%20the%20Inca%20Stonemasons%20Their%20Skills%20A%20Comparison%20of%20Tiahuanaco%20and%20 Inca%20Cut-Stone%20Masonry.pdf

Inca quarrying and stone cutting

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/Inca%20Quarrying%20and%20Stonecutting.pdf

and here are two field experiments putting his theories to the test .

http://www.videopediaworld.com/video/31891/Secrets-of-Lost-Empires-The-Inca-Empire-Part-3-of-6

http://www.videopediaworld.com/video/32306/Secrets-of-Lost-Empires-The-Inca-Empire-Part-4-of-6

from the literature and the field experiments proposed by Protzen , although not perfect by any means , he does put a strong case that advanced technology wasn't required to build the Inca monuments .
however on a side note I'm still looking into the possibility that some of these monuments that have been labeled Inca might have only been usurped by the Inca's and that other's may have built the megalithic block structures but thats for another day .

Beautifully Curious

5th January 2013, 02:58

Very cool thread. I have not been to Peru, yet, but I have been to Bolivia recently and really enjoyed my trip. Thank you for your photos and honest comments.
:)

ThePythonicCow

15th January 2013, 10:09

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 10:24

1000 more photos have become available thanks to a fellow traveler , so i would just like to go back to the streets of cusco and the koricancha.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/Sights_Cuzco11-12-20121-25-43AM_zpsf51eeb9c.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/Sights_Cuzco11-12-20121-21-32AM_zpsdb08cfd8.jpg

As you can see this masonry is extraordinary ,the builders haven't just dressed each stone's front edge to make a pleasing face, they have gone to the extreme and dressed the whole thing.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/Sights_Cuzco11-12-20121-23-58AM_zps460421ba.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/Sights_Cuzco11-12-20121-23-21AM_zps69cf201c.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/Sights_Cuzco11-13-20124-14-15AM_zps89320217.jpg

if dressing the stones to match exactly wasn't enough they then do this.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/Sights_Cuzco11-13-20124-13-53AM_zpsa70aa533.jpg

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 10:54

heres the outside of the koricancha with the Spanish church built over the top.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/Coricancha_Complex_Cuzco11-13-20125-19-44AM_zps1b37be82.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/6l0lO0uF7MQsLg0Wd_g2H5QJbTVhpi3Xt8D.jpg

here is the inside of the outside wall.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/xUWU5wQox39f2lylnSfSg2dULABZ9FCSxth.jpg

this is the top of the same wall.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/zBDHLdz8OMGfGDeitQ6164LiAWbsskjnTSu.jpg

the attention to detail from these craftsmen and that is what they are is second to none.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/DHhCqqhumtjpd6dnP-8Jrl7javpNEntQq9l.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/cusco/X3a3_PUjZtByxLAvsq4GWoXpE24ms2dra4D.jpg

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 11:33

Sachsayhuaman was supposedly completed around 1508 , that’s what all the guidebooks tell us, but The chronicler Garcilaso de la Vega who was Inca on his mother’s side and Spanish on his fathers and was born in Cusco 1536 ,had no idea who or how they were built.

This is his account;
"....this fortress surpasses the constructions known as the Seven Wonders of the World. For in the case of a long broad wall like that of Babylon, or the colossus of Rhodes, or the pyramids of Egypt, or the other monuments, one can see clearly how they were executed...how, by summoning an immense body of workers and accumulating more and more material day by day and year by year, they overcame all difficulties by employing human effort over a long period. But it is indeed beyond the power of imagination to understand now these Indians, unacquainted with devices, engines, and implements, could have cut, dressed, raised, and lowered great rocks, more like lumps of hills than building stones, and set them so exactly in their places. For this reason, and because the Indians were so familiar with demons, the work is attributed to enchantment."
You would have thought there would still have been some builders left in Cusco to tell him exactly how and when they were built, as it was only 30 years after the alleged construction.

Next I turned to the book, THE Seventeen Years TRAVELS of PETER de CIEZA, Through the Mighty Kingdom of PERU, which is one of the first recorded writings of Peru and it states throughout his entire book, that when they came to these various monuments they were all in a state of ruin.
So that’s the two earliest accounts that are available, now we move on to the present time and the latest news is that the Killke culture may have been the builders of Sachsayhuaman.

Killke culture

The Killke occupied the region from 900 to 1200, prior to the arrival of the Incas in the 13th century. Carbon-14 dating of Sachsayhuaman, the walled complex outside Cusco, has demonstrated that the Killke culture constructed the fortress about 1100. The Inca later expanded and occupied the complex in the 13th century and after. On 13 March 2008, archaeologists discovered the ruins of an ancient temple, roadway and aqueduct system at Sachsayhuaman. This find plus the results of excavations in 2007, when another temple was found at the edge of the fortress, indicates religious as well as military use of the facility.

http://www.cusco.eu/view/killke-culture-of-cusco.html

And the lead archaeologist Oscar Rodriguez had this to say.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23626672/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/ancient-temple-unearthed-near-inca-capital/#.UMoDV3eQT0Q

On the 20th December 2012 a Killke structure is reported to have been discovered but as you can see in the link the structure is pretty basic.

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=345371&CategoryId=14095

Just because they have a c 14 date of 1100 AD for people residing at Sachsayhuaman it doesn’t necessarily mean that it was constructed at that time or by them, so the search continues.

When you go to Sachsayhuaman you always picture the fortress/temple or ceremonial centre (delete where necessary) but on the other side is a place called Rodadero (sliding place) which is a fascinating place.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/P1000648-1.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/P1000607.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/Sachsa_Uma_Complex_Near_Sachsayhuaman_Cuzco11-13-20121-49-15AM_zps37bd555f.jpg

This is called the Inca throne, purpose unknown.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/sacsayhuaman-7-large.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/Sachsa_Uma_Complex_Near_Sachsayhuaman_Cuzco11-13-20122-16-32AM_zpsdfc15700.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/P1000627.jpg

This place is huge with many different building styles and still lots more to be re discovered

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/65143551.jpg/

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 11:40

Cutting out alcoves and seats seemed to be random

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/sac3.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/sac5.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/sac6.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sachsayhuaman/Sachsa_Uma_Complex_Near_Sachsayhuaman_Cuzco11-13-20122-10-16AM_zpsd26787e5.jpg

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 11:50

Chinchero

The stonework here is neat random work, but nothing like we see in Cusco
Regretfully, as in most of the towns or temples near Cuzco, Chinchero was wrecked and modified by the "idolatries extirpators". Its destruction began when Manko Inca after his campaign in Cuzco decided to discharge his soldiers so that they could go back to their farmlands and take care of their families; he went towards Ollantaytambo passing through Chinchero and burning it so that the invaders who were persecuting him could not have either food or lodging. Subsequently in 1572, Viceroy Toledo founded the "Doctrine of Our Lady of Monserrat of Chinchero" and ordered construction of the present-day Catholic Church that was finished by the first years of the XVII century; possibly in 1607, that is the year found in the writing over the main arch inside the church. The whole church was built using as foundations the finely carved limestone that belonged to a great Inca palace. The entrails of the fine Inca building were filled up as high as the roofs with earth brought from some other sectors. It was in the 1960s when the Incan palace was discovered under the Catholic Church. The Incan palace must have been very important because on its facade facing to the southern plain presents openings of triple jamb that by themselves indicate its category.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/P1000691.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/Chinchero_Pery11-13-201211-54-56PM_zpse4c644c8.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/P1000687.jpg

Evidence of re cycled material is evident.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/P1000677.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/P1000684.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/P1000702.jpg

Clearly we can see substantial weathering on these re used coping stones.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/P1000693.jpg

the labour involved in the construction of the terracing boggles the mind especially when this work has all been attributed to Tupac Yupanqui (1471-93) who incidentally spent most of his reign expanding the inca empire as far north as Quito, the capital city of Ecuador .

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/P1000694.jpg

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 11:52

more strange rock carving at this site too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLe5v38v2j0&feature=em-uploademail

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/Chinchero_Pery11-14-201212-17-14AM_zpsd73e4dc0.jpg

more seemingly random stone carving

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/Chinchero_Pery11-14-201212-20-24AM_zps5343dbb4.jpg

steps leading nowhere

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/Chinchero_Pery11-14-201212-01-26AM_zpsb1bcb96a.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/Chinchero_Pery11-14-201212-11-28AM_zps6967c894.jpg

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 12:48

Ollantaytambo

Ollantaytambo is located about 50 miles north of Cuzco, the capital of the Inca Empire, at about 9000 feet above sea level. The site was first a royal estate for the Inca Pachacuti, between 1437 and 1471, who apparently destroyed a previous town to build his residence.
This again depends on what guide book you read, as there are many interpretations and that’s all they are, on one hand you have the Spanish version written by Pedro de Cieza de Leon first published in 1554 or you can have the Inca version Royal Commentaries of the Incas by Garcilaso De La Vega El Inca written in the early 1600’s but had to go through the Spanish church censors which apparently only took five years.
In all the literature written over the past 500 years, nobody has any real idea of how and who built this place. I’ve read that it was also built by the first age, whatever that means, by giants or was never finished again this all depends on which book you invest in.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20122-27-31AM_zpsfa084f33.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20124-04-41AM_zps024df129.jpg

These images give you a sense of the scale of the site.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000706.jpg

This image was taken on one of three rest stops just to get to the top (lack of oxygen) and you can see the alleged carving of virocoucha in the top left hand corner and a grain store to the right.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000708.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20122-31-45AM_zps4d89b3b9.jpg

Natural looking to me but I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20122-30-56AM_zps79b61b46.jpg

close up of the grain store .

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20123-22-07AM_zps62e12e64.jpg

Right at the top we are introduced to some huge stone blocks and magnificent stone work.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000716.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000718.jpg

eaglespirit

15th January 2013, 13:08

Thank You again, iceni tribe...wonderful sharing!

We are currently looking into Ed Leedskalnin (Coral Castle) and his connections made in his creations...
I feel he grasped and used the methods of building and designing of a 'higher order' shown and used
in many of your pictures from your travels. They were 'tuned in' back then in South America : )

This is an enthralling thread : )

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 13:28

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000729.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000727-Copy_zps1879a1b7.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20122-58-27AM_zps5aeb35c3.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000737.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000735.jpg

In this image we can see the mountain where these blocks were quarried, brought down the mountain, across a river and then up to the position there in now.
There are over 80 blocks that have been quarried and left in different positions along the route to the site, this is I believe why some have suggested the site was still under construction, but I would suggest that these later blocks were to fortify Ollantaytambo from the Spanish and by the mid 1530’s their wasn’t the man power left to move the blocks from the quarry to the site
.here is a very funny experiment done by the nova team and Protzen who tried to replicate the moving of only a one ton block from the quarry.

http://www.videopediaworld.com/video/31421/Secrets-of-Lost-Empires-The-Inca-Empire-Part-1-of-6

While im on the subject of quarry’s here again are two experiments done at Ollantaytambo by Protzen an accomplished stone mason who attempts to replicate ancient stone cutting methods.

http://www.videopediaworld.com/video/31891/Secrets-of-Lost-Empires-The-Inca-Empire-Part-3-of-6

http://www.videopediaworld.com/video/32306/Secrets-of-Lost-Empires-The-Inca-Empire-Part-4-of-6

so it took 13 days just to fit this one stone in this experiment and that’s his conclusive proof.
The welded rhyolite stones used at the ‘Inca’ site of Ollantaytambo had a hardness of between 6 and 7 on the Mohs scale. Protzen does not mention performing experiments with that type of rock. Nor did he try to shape many-angled, interlocking stones. Nor did he experiment with multi-tonne blocks. A. Hyatt Verrill writes:

No sane man can believe that a twenty-ton stone was pecked here and there, dropped into position, hoisted out and trued and cut over and over again, until a perfect fit was obtained. Even if we can imagine such endless herculean labour being performed, it would have been impossible in many cases owing to the fact that the stones are locked or dovetailed together. Although some of the stones are fairly square or rectangular and with six faces, many are irregular in form, and some have as many as thirty-two angles. The only way in which such complex forms could have been fitted with such incredible accuracy was by cutting each block to extremely fine measurements, or by means of a template, a process which would indicate that these prehistoric people possessed a most thorough and advanced knowledge of engineering and the higher mathematics.

Pounding a block with a hammer stone leaves scars, or pit marks, and in the case of limestone, it produces whitish discoloration in or around the scar. Protzen sees the fact that the stones used in Inca walls bear similar scars as proof that only his own method had been used. He cites several writers from the time of the conquest in support of his view. Garcilaso de la Vega wrote in 1609 that the Incas ‘had no other tools to work the stones than some black stones ... with which they dressed the stone by pounding rather than cutting’. Jose de Acosta, a Jesuit priest traveling with the conquistadors, wrote in 1589: ‘All this was done with much manpower and much suffering in the work, for to fit one stone to the other, until they were adjusted, it was necessary to try the fit many times.’3 There is no doubt that such techniques were used during Inca times. But was that the only method the Incas used? And more importantly, were all ‘Inca’-style buildings really constructed by the Incas? Or was the polygonal, cyclopean masonry the work of a far earlier culture?

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000778.jpg

Can you imagine sculpting this with hammer stones and copper chisels?

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000771.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20122-29-09AM_zpsaf800877.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20123-48-31AM_zps6615755b.jpg

I wonder how long it would take Protzen to dress these stones into their present form and their not too dissimilar from stonework we will see at Puma Punka .

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 13:55

thanks again eaglespirit ,with only being able to post 9 images per post is proving a bit of a headache and it's nice to know that it's worth the effort.
coral castle is fascinating place and is defiantly on my list of places to visit.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000732_zps150f7e83.jpg

here we can see a key stone cut with what may be the left over traces of whatever was poured into it over spilling down the side.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20123-41-51AM_zps5d3f30ab.jpg

this is believed to be a calendar using the shadows from the carved out knobs to determine the solstices.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20123-47-24AM_zpsf15b1067.jpg

these niches may seem quite standard but believe me , they would be extremely hard to produce using their alleged basic tools.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000755.jpg

You certainly need a head for heights at this site.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000723.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ollantaytambo/P1000967_zpsae3099f8.jpg

here you can see the ramp going up to Ollantaytambo

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 14:16

Machu Picchu

To get to Machu Picchu you can either hike on the Inca trail or catch the train which is an hour and a half journey from Ollantaytambo .we took the train.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000793.jpg

The train takes you to the bottom of Machu Picchu were you can buy a bottle of water for three times the usual price and it tastes no better.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000799.jpg

Then you get to pay 22 sols for the most harrowing 20 min bus drive along a mostly single lane dirt track at speeds that are quite unsuitable , that’s until the driver meets a bus coming the over way which he then applies the emergency brakes and starts reversing to a passing place.
The last scene from the film “the Italian job “springs to mind as the bus teeters over the edge of the abyss as the buses pass each other.
This is the view that greets you when you make it to the top.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000859_zpsb7c7d72d.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000828_zpsb5f89597.jpg

Here is a Inca trail going around the mountain, for this 20 minute walk you need to sign in at a little hut and sign back in on your return, just in case you fall off I presume.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000851_zps7bc75699.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000844_zps3c089116.jpg

The trail takes you to a bridge but luckily it’s closed off to the public.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/MegalithoHiddenInca840_zps4296e0f2.jpg

eaglespirit

15th January 2013, 14:35

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 14:45

Machu Picchu
History

Machu Picchu is alledged to have been built around 1450, at the height of the Inca Empire. The construction of Machu Picchu appears to date from the period of the two great Incas, Pachacutec Inca Yupanqui (1438–71) and Tupac Inca Yupanqui (1472–93). It was abandoned just over 100 years later, in 1572, as a belated result of the Spanish Conquest. It is possible that most of its inhabitants died from smallpox introduced by travellers before the Spanish conquistadors arrived in the area.

Early encounters

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/4ab7221e8422.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu_picchu_630px.jpg

Although Bingham was the first person to bring word of the ruins to the outside world (1911), previous outsiders were said to have seen them. Simone Waisbard, a long-time researcher of Cusco, claims that Enrique Palma, Gabino Sánchez, and Agustín Lizárraga left their names engraved on one of the rocks at Machu Picchu on 14 July 1901. In 1904, an engineer named Franklin supposedly spotted the ruins from a distant mountain. He told Thomas Payne, an English Christian missionary living in the region, about the site, Payne's family members claim. They also report that in 1906, Payne and fellow missionary Stuart E. McNairn (1867–1956) climbed up to the ruins.
The site may have been discovered and plundered in 1867 by a German businessman, Augusto Berns. There is some evidence that a German engineer, J. M. von Hassel, arrived earlier. Maps found by historians show references to Machu Picchu as early as 1874.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machu_Picchu
New evidence is challenging this perception.

Killke Culture:

Pre-Inca remains represent 40 percent of Machu Picchu Archaeological Park (Cusco), which hosts the well-known Inca citadel, which last year was chosen one of New 7 Wonders of the World.
The director of this archaeological park, Fernando Astete, explained that the Inca citadel of Machu Picchu is only one of the 196 archaeological complexes and sites of the zone which has an extension of 38,448 hectares.
Astete explained that this 40 per cent corresponds to the Killke culture, which inhabited this zone before the naissance of the biggest empire of South America.
After confirming that the citadel of Machu Picchu was clearly Inca, Astete reported that this empire was built over Killke archaeological centre.
“Usually, in some excavations where we find Inca remains we can also find Killke culture's remains under them, such as ceramics", he stated to Andina news agency.
Astete detailed that most of the Killke settlements are located in the area between the entrance of the Archaeological Park and one kilometre away from the Inca citadel.
Killke architecture "is characterized because it is very similar to the Inca's, though the latter stands out for its very well-defined, geometric, and very good finish structures."

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/killke_culture_machu_picchu.jpg

"Killke has neither the Inca's geometry nor its good finish; instead it is much more rustic. Its constructions are usually oval or semi-circular, not octagonal as the Inca's and are usually inaccessible", he said.
He added that in Machu Picchu Archaeological Park there are traces of another even older Pre Inca culture: the Chanapata, which was developed during the formative period, but its architectural evidence, is minimal.
Studies by INC
A few months ago, the National Institute of Culture (INC) from Cuzco, started for the first time, archaeological research works on the Killke settlement at Machu Picchu Archaeological Park, located on the slopes of Piscacucho hill.

Most Killke settlements are located on the upper part of the hillslope, unlike the Inca's population centers, located at the bottom.
The Killke culture, which developed between 1,000 and 1,400 A.C, belonged to the regional states of Cusco, presumably conquered by the Incas.
May 20, 2008 by Fernando Zora-Carvajal.

http://incas.homestead.com/cuzco/killke_culture_pre_inca_cusco.html

here are a few images a sort of then and now from hiram bingham up to the present day to see how much has been restored since 1911.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu13-Copy.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/MegalithoHiddenInca796_zps9a341ea6.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/m1.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000906_zps54def1b3.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/075_zps06e05c20.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000868.jpg

Subsidence is evident but not much has changed to this structure in the last 100 years, but nearly 30% of the lesser building's have been repaired/reconstructed.

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 14:50

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu6-Copy.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000945_zpsc613cc29.jpg

Now lets have a look a the sheer scale of the place.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/peruwendyscamera304_zpsff6673a3.jpg

[http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/1709983.jpg

Here’s an image taken from huana picchu , the peak with yet more construction. And 400ft down the other side we have the temple of the moon.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/31564143.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/77509166.jpg

here a couple of images looking up at huana picchu

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/MegalithoHiddenInca774_zps43fffead.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/MegalithoHiddenInca773_zps0b9d804f.jpg

who ever built these structures couldn't have chosen a more difficult site.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/17083571.jpg

The death defying road up to machu Picchu and more building's on the top of huana picchu.
As you can see this site is enormous and we are told that all this construction was started in the 1450’s only to be abandoned 80 years later. C’mon really.

plus we have to bear in mind the other massive sites in the sacred valley,some of we have seen here but there’s a awful lot more that I will briefly cover soon.

We also have to bear in mind that when the inca’s started these massive building works (1450 AD)they were also building 23,000 km of roads and trails, and expanding their empire from northern Chile to central Ecuador with wars and treaty’s.

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 14:56

Let’s take a look at the building construction.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-55.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu6.jpg

The gable end on the inside building has been rebuilt, but other than that they are a pretty good match.
if you look to the right of that gable you can just make out the end of another building that has repaired masonry at the very top, that’s the same in both photos .this masonry is different to the lower courses which would mean it has been rebuilt by either lesser capable stone masons or at a different time period.
The buildings with the flat roofs also appear to have the top section rebuilt in the same manor, lesser quality stonework sitting on top of much finer work. It’s a possibility that these building were the last to be occupied after the sites collapse by some of the last remaining inhabitants but that’s just speculation on my part.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-fotos-100.jpg

This is the same location and you can see the different quality of stonework much clearer.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-fotos-15.jpg

With the care and attention paid to building the bottom section of this building , the stonemasons would turn in their grave to see what has been built on top of their work. Why would a building that was under construction suddenly have such a dramatic change?

This building was either constructed in two different time periods or by lesser capable stonemasons. You can just imagine the look on the Forman’s face when he came to check up on his new gang of workers , he would have thrown a wobbler and the gang might have all ended up in the cooking pot for such a distinctive change in style.
Another option would be that suddenly they needed to up the tempo and get the building built asp putting aside quality over quantity but I find this the least plausible explanation.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-fotos-103.jpg

Again the same thing, superb quality works at the bottom and much poorer construction above although this might be a recent refurbishment.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-fotos-14.jpg

This is on the same side but again we come to the same anomaly.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-fotos-102.jpg

In this image the apparent change in style may be due to the rounded stones (roof anchors) being added at a later date they look chopped in after the final construction.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000929.jpg

Same room.

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 14:58

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-fotos-16.jpg

This gable looks like a later edition.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-fotos-47.jpg
Two different styles again.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-52.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000816.jpg

This all looks pretty much as it did when Hiram first photographed the site.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-54.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000866_zpsd2375006.jpg

And here is a couple more from around the site to show some of the workmanship.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/00083669_000.gif

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu24.jpg

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 15:02

Sun Temple

The Sun Temple [view] was dedicated to the solar god and patron Incan deity, Inti. Accessible to only the priests and the Sapa Inca, the temple was an important observatory in which the measurement of the solstices was undertaken. A carved boulder altar in the center of the structure supported the animal sacrifices which provided organs for the priests to make their predictions.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000936_zpscbc10de1.jpg

Beneath the Sun Temple is a cavernous room named the Royal Tomb? Here the nobles, and maybe the Sapa Inca himself, were laid to rest in their mummified state.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/P1000908_zps962932a9.jpg

This peculiar rock provides the complex with its name: Intiwatana is the "sun fastener". The winter solstice prompted the great, annual celebration of the Inti Raymi ("sun festivity"). At this time, with the earth located furthest from the Inti ("sun"), the Incas sought to tie the escaping orb to the earth via the Intiwatana. It also was likely to serve an astrological role.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/peruwendyscamera323_zpsf9421f11.jpg

Temple of the Three Windows

Erected overlooking the Main Plaza is the Temple of the Three Windows [view]. Unlike the enclosed and exclusive Sun Temple, this structure has three walls, while the fourth is an open space obstructed only by columns to support the roof. Originally built with five windows, two were filled to leave behind the three from which the building's name is derived. A stone located within has steps carved into it representing the three worlds: Ukja Pacha, (" underworld") Kay Pacha ("earth"), and Hanan Pacha ("heaven").

Machu Picchu is now believed to be a royal estate which was perhaps used during May to August by Inca royalty with 150 building’s and a population of between 500 and 750 who were the site retainers.

143 skeletons have been recovered; these burials have been discovered mainly in walled-up crevices beneath or adjacent to the large boulders strewn along the edges of the site. Little energy was expended in preparation of the burial chamber which, in most cases, was just an unmodified natural space with a few rocks piled around the body to keep wild animals out. Secondly, most of the goods left with those found buried at Machu Picchu were modest at best; Ironically, Bingham's misreading of Machu Picchu and its importance led some Cuzco scholars and journalists to expect the kinds of rich grave goods known from other Inca sites. When Bingham failed to produce them, he was charged with having stolen all of the gold and silver items for personal gain, accusations that, in part, eventually led him to abandon Peruvian archaeology.
Many of these skeletons bear the traces of broken bones and bad backs that mark common working folk and there are several types of cranial deformation represented, including types that are not typical of the Cuzco region

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-fotos-aereas-9.jpg

looking at this image i suspect more terracing to be uncovered on the right hand slope

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/machu%20picchu/machu-picchu-fotos-aereas-1.jpg

iceni tribe

15th January 2013, 15:16

Then you get to pay 22 sols for the most harrowing 20 min bus drive along a mostly single lane dirt track at speeds that are quite unsuitable , that’s until the driver meets a bus coming the over way which he then applies the emergency brakes and starts reversing to a passing place.
The last scene from the film “the Italian job “springs to mind as the bus teeters over the edge of the abyss as the buses pass each other.

HaHaHa iceni tribe...I experienced those kinds of rides and encounters with other oncoming buses many times while there going through the mountains and many tight switchback turns at high altitudes too : )
Thanks again!

LOL yes their were quite a few white knuckle moments on those roads for want of a better word , all good fun though, ive heard you should do something that scares you everyday but some days we had more than one.

ive loads more photo's to come , tiwanaku , puma punka etc which i hope you will enjoy. soon .

ThePythonicCow

17th January 2013, 09:26

ive loads more photo's to come , tiwanaku , puma punka etc which i hope you will enjoy. soon .
Truly awesome - thanks iceni tribe.

Where is this location on a map?

iceni tribe

21st January 2013, 11:52

hello Paul

The tour i took started at Lima ,drove down to Nazca and then drove back up to Ica ,Paracus and back to Lima , then a flight to Cuzco where you need some time to adjust to the altitude , and then a long drive to the Bolivian border.At Cochabamba we took the Hydrofoil across Lake Titicaca and then drove to La Paz and then onto Tiwanaku ,Puma Punka which is 70km away.
Lots of traveling ,some of the sites weren't worth the effort and when your going with a big group you can miss out on sites that you did want to visit as we shall see.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/inca_trail_map.jpg

If anyone is thinking about visiting these sites or going with a tour feel free to pm me for honest advice.

iceni tribe

21st January 2013, 11:56

Sites around the sacred valley that unfortunately i wasn't able to visit.

Pisaq

History

The history of Pisac is not known in great detail. Its date of foundation is not clear, but it does not appear to have been inhabited by any pre-Inca civilisation, which would put its date of foundation at no earlier than 1440. Like the Inca Empire as a whole, it was dismantled by Pizarro and the Conquistadores in the early 1530s. Unlike at Ollantaytambo at the other end of the valley, no major battles were fought here.

http://h2g2.com/approved_entry/A21141406

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/800px-QAllaqasa_ruins_at_Pisac2C_Pe.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/pisac-incan-terraces-5199-large.jpg

Huge terracing system

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/sac14somewhereelse.jpg

Magnificent stonework with a rounded sun temple encompassing a sacred rock just like Machu Picchu

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/800px-Sun_Temple_at_Pisac2C_Peru.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/pisac-incan-ruins-5238-large.jpg

More images here

http://theworldinlight.com/thumbnails/pisac-peru-photos.html#.UPQbOmfkr0R

Moray

The use for the complex is a topic of debate; a stadium with perfect acoustics that could seat 260,000; a religious complex or an agricultural research station, take your pick my moneys on agriculture, but who in their right mind would undertake such a construction, the bottom of this terracing is 150 meters deep and the sheer volume of material that had to be dug out and carted away defies logic.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/797px-051-Moray.jpg

This video gives you some idea of the scale of Moray.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YonjkYFll00&feature=em-uploademail

Tambo machay

It consists of a series of aqueducts, canals and waterfalls that run through the terraced rocks. The function of the site is uncertain: it may have served as a military outpost guarding the approaches to Cusco, as a spa resort for the Incan political elite, or both.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/sac17.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/Tambomachay_.jpg

iceni tribe

21st January 2013, 12:03

Sillustani (which is on the way to Bolivia from the sacred valley.)

Sillustani is a pre-Incan burial ground on the shores of Lake Umayo near Puno in Peru. The tombs, which are built above ground in tower-like structures called chullpas, are the vestiges of the Colla people, Aymara who were conquered by the Inca in the 15th century. The structures housed the remains of complete family groups, although they were probably limited to nobility. Many of the tombs have been dynamited by grave robbers, while others were left unfinished.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sillustani

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sillustani/SILLUSTANIPERU23_zps714ed5b8.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sillustani/P1010091_zpsa2ab7d27.jpg

So family groups were found buried in these chullpas , but that doesn’t necessarily mean they were built for that purpose , some have speculated that these were light houses I personally thought the place looked like an industrial area ,and they could have started off as furnaces.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sillustani/P1010056.jpg

This is a very windy site and all of the openings to these chullpas face east which is where the wind always comes from at this site ,also all the blocks appear to have a cavity which may have helped dissipate heat.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sillustani/P1010054.jpg

This next image is from inside a chullpa ,which I was hoping to analyse for traces of heat but unfortunately on further research ,the chullpa had been recently rebuilt “restored” .

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sillustani/P1010165_zpsa8fc45cc.jpg

Also their looked like a sort of “smelting bowl “which may have been used to collect the melted gold/silver/other.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sillustani/P1010072.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sillustani/P1010075.jpg

Theirs that snake again.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sillustani/P1010148_zps3451ee3f.jpg

stone circles

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sillustani/P1010059_zps94beddf0.jpg

History

This region consisted of modern day northwest Bolivia, north and central Chile and northeast Argentina.
The "land of the Colla" , thanks its name one of the most powerful and vigorous enemies of the Incas: The Colla or Hatun Colla. This was one of the many tribes that had organised themselves in communities after the Tiwanaku culture had faded round 1150 AD. Together with the Lupaca kingdom they had control over more or less the whole region of lake Titicaca.

Conquest during the reign of Pachacuti

Inca Pachacutec, who had been victorious over the Cancha tribe and had consolidated the surroundings of Cusco, headed with a large army toward the lake, where he encountered a strong opponent in the leader of the Colla, Chuchi Capac, who had previously been a guest at a wedding in Cusco. The battle was fierce. At a certain point however, Pachacuti, was able to capture Chuchi Capac, which was clearly a breaking point. Soon all the leaders of the Colla were captured. Pachacuti took them to the capital Hatun Colla and demanded that loyalty and obedience of all Chuchi Capac's subjects.
When this was done and the people had offered enough precious gifts, Pachacuti went back to Cusco, taking the Colla leaders as prisoners. Once back in the capital, it is said that Chuchi Capac was be-headed in the Coricancha and the other captains were put in a prison filled with serpents and toads.The cruel fate of the Colla leaders, made that many other tribes offered their obedience to the Inca.

Conquest during the reign of Tupac Inca

One of Pachacuti's sons, Tupac (Topa) Yupanqui, continued to conquer. when he was fighting in Antisuyu, rebellion broke loose in Collasuyu, where a rumour had been spread that the Inca was dead. This news reached Tupac Inca, who decided to teach these rebels a lesson. He left Antisuyu and marched into Colasuyu. Like his father before him, he captured the leaders who's skins are said to have been made into drums. This put a stop to any further Colla rebellion.
Having tasted victory Tupac Inca moved further south, into Argentina and Chile, conquering every nation on his path, until he was stopped by the Mapuches in the south of Chili.

http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Places/Place/646662

iceni tribe

21st January 2013, 12:05

Temple of Wiracocha east of Puno

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/wiracocha_temple_cusco_peru_1.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ancient%20monuments/800px-Raqchi_02.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/sites%20around%20cusco/wiracocha_temple_cusco_peru.jpg

The most prominent structure is the Temple of Wiracocha, an enormous rectangular two-story roofed structure that measures 92 metres (302 ft) by 25.5 metres (84 ft).[2] This structure consists of a central adobe wall some 18 to 20 meters in height with an andesite base. Windows and doors allow passage. It is flanked on each side by a row of eleven columns. The foundations measure 4 metres (13 ft) for both the wall and the columns are classic high Inca stonework with the remaining height built of adobe.

Prior to its destruction by the Spaniards, the temple had what is believed to be the largest single roof in the Incan Empire, having its peak at the central wall, then stretching over the columns and some 25 metres (82 ft) beyond on each side. The huge proportions of the temple and its prominence on the site explain why the whole complex is also sometimes referred to as the Temple of Wiracocha

This was a site i also missed but looking at the images again we see far superior craftsmanship on the bottom and rubbish adobe brickwork at the top which may suggest two different construction periods.
The only example of this type of construction i have seen is in Cusco where the plastered adobe brickwork sitting on top of finer stonework has been attributed to the Spanish.

iceni tribe

21st January 2013, 12:18

Aramu Muru

7m wide and 7m high and became popular in the 1990’s and also on the ancient alien series as an alleged stargate.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/amaru%20muru%20potal/P1010118.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/amaru%20muru%20potal/P1010119.jpg

Local villagers refuse to come close to the doorway/portal. They tell stories about people, and particularly children, disappearing through the solid rock.

Well that’s what most web sites tell you.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/amaru%20muru%20potal/MegalithoHiddenInca1096_zps5eae2ac3.jpg

Notice the local woman with her hand out well that pretty much sums this place up, it’s a tourist trap in the middle of nowhere sculpted by the locals to extract money from passing tourists.

It took our particular party an hour and a half to get there, then you have to mill about while everyone gets their photo taken and then theirs the return journey. This took so long that we missed out on seeing the fertility temple.

Fertility temple.

Chucuito is one of the few ancient sites in the world that is likely to elicit a few giggles. In many ways, you're supposed to giggle when you walk through the walled-off complex covered in row after row of stone phalluses. Especially considering that this supposed ancient fertility clinic may just be a hoax catering to the immaturity of tourists.
For more than half a century, archeologists and anthropologists have studied Chucuito Temple of Fertility, and have decided, with some debate, that the stones were placed in this order more recently than they were quarried and cut. Scientists even discovered that many of the stones were not originally set straight up, indicating that a perverse opportunist may have had a hand in the temple's creation. Yet the findings of the scientists mean little to locals who work day in and day out to dispel these claims by giving tours of the temple.
Altogether, there are 86 phallic stones in the temple, and some even stretch to five feet. According to legend, and most tour guides in the city, this temple was frequented by women trying to get pregnant. Under the guidance of a spiritual leader, women would climb aboard the mushroom rocks and be doused in chicha, traditional Peruvian corn beer, which allegedly helped them become pregnant.
Adding to the confusion created by this legend, the site, which is named Inca Uyo, can be translated two ways. In Quechua, it means field, a perfectly logical translation. But a more modern twist translates the word into penis, which unfortunately fits the other side of the debate similarly well. Although no definitive answer will ever be discovered, the rocks resemblance to male genitalia remains uncanny.

http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/chucuito

How Real Is That Ruin? Don't Ask, the Locals Say

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/21/arts/design/21inca.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

this article sums it up nicely and unfortunately this is not the worst example of reconstruction in this area .

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ancient%20monuments/IMG_4779_zps83f59aef.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ancient%20monuments/IMG_4769_zpsc18153ed.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ancient%20monuments/IMG_4788_zpsb75fb336.jpg

If we ignore what’s inside this temple , the outside construction looks very similar to what we have seen in Cusco.

iceni tribe

21st January 2013, 12:23

Lake titicaca

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/220px-Lake_Titicaca_map.png

It is often called the highest navigable lake in the world, with a surface elevation of 3,812 m (12,507 ft).Although this refers to navigation by large boats, it's generally considered to mean commercial craft. At least two dozen bodies of water around the world are at higher elevations, but all are much smaller and shallower.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Titicaca

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/P1010140_zps63f11d1c.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/P1010194_zps03f80be7.jpg

This boat is a smaller replica of RA11 built by the Limachi family which Norwegian adventurer Thor Heyerdahl used it to sail between Morocco and the Barbados Islands in the Caribbean in 1970. The Ra II is on display at the Kon-Tiki Museum in Oslo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEFWr5svgX8

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/P1010197_zps99a1fa96.jpg

Ships built of bullrush reed, known here as totora, have sailed the Pacific, the Atlantic, the Mediterranean, and for a millennia across the Titicaca.k,
The Limachis and other Aymara native residents of Suriqui Island have built 22 trans-oceanic reed vessels over the past decades, and if funding comes through, will build a ship they hope will sail from New York to Spain in 2014.

http://www.arabnews.com/bolivia%E2%80%99s-eco-friendly-trans-oceanic-ships

Boats Ra and Ra II
Ra II in the Kon-Tiki Museum

In 1969 and 1970, Heyerdahl built two boats from papyrus and attempted to cross the Atlantic Ocean from Morocco in Africa. Based on drawings and models from ancient Egypt, the first boat, named Ra (after the Egyptian Sun god), was constructed by boat builders from Lake Chad using papyrus reed obtained from Lake Tana in Ethiopia and launched into the Atlantic Ocean from the coast of Morocco. After a number of weeks, Ra took on water after its crew made modifications to the vessel that caused it to sag and break apart. The ship was abandoned and the following year, another similar vessel, Ra II, was built of totora by Demetrio, Juan and Jose Limachi from Lake Titicaca in Bolivia and likewise set sail across the Atlantic from Morocco, this time with great success. The boat reached Barbados, thus demonstrating that mariners could have dealt with trans-Atlantic voyages by sailing with the Canary Current.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfnXms4s17I

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/1637192.jpg

The floating reed islands of the Uros which are maintained by adding fresh reeds to the surface even as the ones on the bottom decompose.

iceni tribe

21st January 2013, 12:26

Island of the sun

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/P1010154_zps9fd51383.jpg

According to Incan lore, after a great flood, the god Viracocha arose from Lake Titicaca to create the world. He commanded the sun (Inti), moon (Mama Kilya) and stars to rise, then went to Tiahuanaco to create the first human beings, Mallku Kapac and Mama Ocllo. These first humans, the "Inca Adam and Eve," were formed from stone and brought to life by Viracocha, who commanded them to go out and populate the world. Thus Lake Titicaca is the birthplace of the Incas, whose spirits return to their origin in the lake upon death.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/bolivia/lake-titicaca

To get to this island we had to swap boats in a 4ft swell , timing was everything and how we all made it without breaking any bones or ending up in the water was nothing short of a miracle.
Personally I was expecting to see a magnificent temple here, but all I found was mediocre ruins and a “alter”.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/ISLANDOFTHESUNLAKETITICACA8_zpsf758078e.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/ISLANDOFTHESUNINCABUILDINGS_zps7ced2632.jpg

Rather than stay at this spot playing with dowsing rods a couple of us trekked around the island in search of this temple but to no avail.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/bbl0064s2.jpg

This image is from 1830

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/7168655.jpg

Same structure ?

Island of the moon

The Island of the Moon (Isla de la Luna) is the legendary home of the Inca goddess Mama Quila. The structures on this island were originally built by the pre-Incan Aymara culture, but the Incas left their mark on the architecture as well (such as the typical trapezoidal doors). During Inca times, the Isla de la Luna housed chosen women known as the "Virgins of the Sun," who lived a nun-like lifestyle.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/P1010161.jpg

This has all been reconstructed

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/P1010169.jpg

The local guide walked straight past this fragmented wall oblivious to its skilful construction.

Under lake Titicaca

Posted Wednesday, 23 August, 2000, Ancient temple found under Lake Titicaca

The ruins of an ancient temple have been found by international archaeologists under Lake Titicaca, the world's highest lake. A terrace for crops, a long road and an 800-metre (2,600 feet) long wall was also found under the waters of the lake, sited in the Andes mountains between Bolivia and Peru. Dating back 1,000 to 1,500 years ago, the ruins are pre-Incan. They have been attributed to the indigenous Tiwanaku or Tiahuanaco people, said Lorenzo Epis, the Italian scientist leading the Atahuallpa 2000 scientific expedition. The holy temple measures 200m by 50m (660ft by 160ft) almost twice the size of an average football pitch.
More than 200 dives were made into the lake, to depths of as much as 30m (100ft), to record the ruins on film. The explorers found the temple after following a submerged road, in an area of the lake not far from Copacabana town.
The complete findings of the 30-member team, backed by the scientific group Akakor Geographical Exploring, are to be published in November.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/892616.stm

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/lake3_zps2acd489a.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/lake%20titicaca/lake2_zpsdec32716.jpg

How anyone can stamp a date on this structure 30 metres under the lake is beyond me , maybe because of the head of this statue is similar to heads found in the sunken temple at Tiwanaku or have they found pottery they can put in a time period ,who knows I can’t seem to find any details of this expedition or the publish report that allegedly came out in November 2002.
I would also like to add that the statue recovered may have come from a boats cargo or more worryingly been deliberately placed there.

Bill Ryan

21st January 2013, 13:38

sandy

22nd January 2013, 02:44

Thank you so much for sharing your journey to these wonderful, spectacular and mysterious places. The enigma of it all is so intriguing it is no wonder that many have dedicated their lives to finding answers to our true history.

Much appreciated >>>>>>>thank you and continued blessings on your journey :)

ks4ever

23rd January 2013, 03:32

I agree with Bill this is a fabulous thread.

I thought I would mention that I am one of a number of individuals that have backed a project instigated by Brien Foerster from Peru to analyse and extract the full Genome from elongated skulls in that country. The image below is one of those presently being done. The details at present are secret but I will inform members of this Forum when they become available.

The company carrying out the study is DNA Diagnostics, a well known firm in the United States. founded by Dr. Melba Ketchum. Established in 1985, DNA Diagnostics has become a leader in all types of DNA testing including: human and animal forensics, human and animal paternity and parentage testing, disease diagnostics, trait tests, animal and human identity testing, species identification and sex determination. Most common species of animals are tested at DNA Diagnostics. Dr. Ketchum has also established a research program ranging from gene mapping to developing the VeriSNP™ (patent pending) platform for universal genetic evaluation in multiple species of animals. Other research includes genetics of disease, population genetics and other genetically important traits such as coat color in animals. Dr. Ketchum is a past three-term Chairperson of the International Society for Animal Genetics Equine Genetics Standing Committee. She has also been Dog Map Chairperson and a Committee member on the Dog and Cat Parentage Committee. She is a former Treasurer for AFDAA, The Association of DNA Analysts and Administrators. She aided in the analysis of the DNA sequences from the World Trade Center Disaster.

A study not connected to this thread but worth listening to is about their research into the Genome on the Bigfoot.
An interview on Coast to Coast am was conducted with the head geneticist, Dr. Melba Ketchum, on the 23rd December 2012, about their research which they hope to be published on the Bigfoot in one of this years Science Journals. This research has discovered that the mother of Bigfoot was homo sapien, but they do not know what species the male progenitor was. This can be heard at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf1izGPvA4g

I hope you enjoy hearing about this fascinating research.

iceni tribe

23rd January 2013, 14:21

-------

Fabulous thread -- thank you! This is the best and most interesting illustrated chronicle of a journey through Peru and Bolivia that I've ever seen. It's a real service to the forum.

I've not yet traveled to Peru and Bolivia, but certainly will. Klaus Dona is a good friend, and he may visit here again before not too long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmMwo1Xzgus
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XmMwo1Xzgus

My own personal interest is in Tiwanaku (Tiahuanaco), which is probably 15,000 years old: I have a connection with the place I want to explore.

How these huge stones were laid into place so perfectly is almost impossible to understand. Klaus theorizes that something was applied to the stone to liquify the surface (rather like moist cement) -- which then solidified once in place to create the impeccable joints. Meanwhile, the Incas had legends that the stones were "floated" across deep valleys to the sound of drumming and chanting.

If you should find yourself in Ecuador -- let me know. :)

Thanks Bill , thats very much appreciated .
It's funny that the next post i'm putting together is on Tiwanaku and then Puma Punka which i'm still collecting data on , as for Klaus i met him at Glastonbury last year and my claim to fame is i got to introduce Micheal Cremo to Klaus and then i became a fly on the wall so to speak as they swapped info with each other......priceless.
As for Ecuador , and South America i would go back tomorrow money allowing ,so you never know.

:yo:

eaglespirit

23rd January 2013, 14:46

Thank You for more sharing, Iceni Tribe
I visited, at good length... and connected strongly at the sites, Pisaq and Moray.
Wonderful to see Your pictures and sharing. Brought me there again.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52514-In-Search-of-the-Ancient-Builders-in-Peru-and-Bolivia&p=620088&viewfull=1#post620088

iceni tribe

24th January 2013, 15:07

Tiwanaku

There’s a lot of controversy over Tiwanaku, its age and its function, and many experts have spent many years trying to interpret the ruins, so realistically all I can do with a one day visit is share my photographs with hopefully a couple of insights.

This is what academia has to say about the site.
Tiwanaku in Bolivia is an impressive archaeological site housing the capital of pre-Inca empire. Much about Tiwanaku remains a mystery and the subject of on-going academic debate.
Over the course of the first century, Tiwanaku developed and, by 550 BC, it was a thriving capital of a vast empire with a presence throughout much of the Americas.

At its peak, Tiwanaku had around 20,000 inhabitants. The city remained prosperous over the coming centuries and satellite towns were built, altogether with a population of up to 175,000 people.
The people of Tiwanaku built a magnificent city spanning approximately 2.3 square kilometres with monuments, temples, homes and public buildings. Constructed using the adobe method, this feat was all the more impressive when one considers that Tiwanaku is located approximately 3.5 kilometres above sea level, requiring many of their materials to be transported over long distances.

Tiwanaku was still flourishing in 900 AD, however by the time it was discovered by the Incas in the mid-fifteenth century, it was entirely abandoned, probably having declined in the twelfth century. Yet, the legacy of the Tiwanaku Empire remains today, albeit in ruins.

That which remains is incredible and has resulted in much excited speculation over the years. For example, the many carved heads on the “Templete” or Small Semi-Subterranean Temple were probably meant to represent humans, but have been said to resemble aliens. This has led to some 'alternative' theories as to who – or what - built Tiwanaku.

One of Tiwanaku’s most famous structures is its Akapana temples, which would once have been a pyramid, but has since been significantly eroded, both by looters and by nature. However, its 16 square metre base does allude to the former grandeur of this structure. Today; Tiwanaku is a popular tourist site and a UNESCO World Heritage site. Visitor can view its many monuments, gates – such as the well-known Gateway of the Sun - and statues, all of which attest to the importance of this once ceremonial city.

One of the most puzzling aspects of the Tiwanaku pyramids is the lack of nearby quarries. Analysis of the red sandstone places one quarry 10 kilometres away, an incredible distance considering that one of the stones alone weighs over 130 tons. The source of the green andesite stones, the material from which the most elaborate carvings and monoliths are made, is on the Copacabana peninsula, across Lake Titicaca. One theory is that these giant andesite stones (the largest weighing 40 tons) were transported some 90 kilometres across Lake Titicaca on reed boats, and then laboriously dragged another 10 kilometers to the city.

http://interactive.archaeology.org/tiwanaku/project/experiment.html

Tiwanaku church was built between 1580 and 1612 using the abundant blocks from the nearby ancient ruins.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/MegalithoHiddenInca1207_zps494ba3c0.jpg

This is the front entrance to the church, were quite clearly we can see a re cycled block with a key stone cut ,this one was most probably from Puma Punka ,also the block has magnetic qualities as you can see the magnets in the image.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/MegalithoHiddenInca1214_zps6ee0a323.jpg

Quite clearly a bowl with the Virocoucha emblem has no place in the courtyard of a Catholic church.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/MegalithoHiddenInca1220_zps63b2afed.jpg

Around the town square another key stone block again green andersite so most probably from Puma Punka.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010252_zps108af3fd.jpg

Apparently this statue has turned up quite recently, the figure on the back looks similar to the one found at Göbekli Tepe.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010249_zps2c97b6f4.jpg

I suspect the sculptor of this statue is in the picture.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010284.jpg

Map of the main site

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/map-cc-the-mediamentro.jpg

iceni tribe

24th January 2013, 15:09

The Akapana pyramid.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010396_zps17e995ba.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010291-1.jpg
Front of the Akapana

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010293.jpg

Left hand side of the Akapana. We can see that nearly all of the original blocks forming the terracing have been removed leaving only the artificial mound and poorly reconstructed adobe plastered walls that have been so badly done that in 2009 the state-sponsored restoration work on the Akapana pyramid was halted due to a complaint from UNESCO.

http://interactive.archaeology.org/tiwanaku/360_1.html

here is a 360 view from the top of the Akapana

As you can see there is a huge hole on top of the pyramid, which is now thought to be a sunken water temple or for just storing water with intricate water channels leading to the bottom of the pyramid.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010297_zps5403dfc4.jpg

Water channel seen here in the centre and far left bottom terrace.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/puma_punku3.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/tiwanakugooglearth.jpg

As seen from above showing the near complete destruction of the pyramid.

The Kalasasaya

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010354_zps05efb0cb.jpg

Photo taken from the top of the Akapana 2012 looks impressive but ………………..

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/5c208600bc2c.jpg

‘Kalasasaya’ according to Arthur Posnansky who spent a lifetime studying the site, simply means ‘standing stones’. When he investigated Tiwanaku the stone pillars had more of the appearance of a 'Stonehenge', there was no wall there as there is today, most of the wall was assumed to have been carried off so in the 1960’s as part of a reconstruction project the spaces between the pillars were filled in to form a wall.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/59380ad56daa.jpg

iceni tribe

24th January 2013, 15:12

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/5e664a0fd1f1.jpg

1903 image

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010374_zpsd0395579.jpg

2012 restored

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010301_zpsb38e2401.jpg

2012 front wall off the Kalasasaya

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/16c9eb47b131.jpg

LOST CALENDAR OF THE ANDES the calendar of Tiwanaku and of the Muisca by Jim Allen is a interesting article explaining how the calander works.

http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/lostcalendarandes.htm

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/year1of40weeks.gif

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/kalasasayaoutside.jpg

View from the field showing the reconstructed wall, the position of the missing pillar can be easily seen, just behind where the person appears to be running.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/tistone.jpg

Here’s the missing block 200 metres to the west of the wall.

1908 image

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/22.jpg

iceni tribe

24th January 2013, 15:14

Sub terrain temple

Semi sub terrain Temple was discovered in 1903 by a French mission led by Crecqui Montfort
It is a building of two meters of depth, slightly square, limited by four walls of contention and 45 visible sustaining pillars. In the inside the walls are adorned by 175 built in and worked on lime stone and tuff ball heads.
At the foot of the temple, a system of channels that can provide a perfect drainage are to be found. In the inside the biggest anthropomorphous stele was found, known as Pachamama or Bennett Monolith, after the name of the discoverer. Inside the temple one can see the monolith Barbado or Kontiki.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010369.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/TIWANAKUBOLIVIA50_zps18cfcfb4.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010330.jpg

Every sculpted head is different.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010340_zps26a831eb.jpg

In 1932, Wendell Bennett found in the centre of the temple, a stele that bears his name, Barbado monolith. The temple was fully excavated and restored by the Center for Archaeological Investigations in the mid-60s.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/TIWANAKUBOLIVIA19_zpsbf5c694a.jpg

The story of the Bennett monolith is an interesting one, found in the early 30’s in the sunken temple it made its way to La Paz where it stood in the Bolivian capitol for 70 years only to be repatriated back to Tiwanaku in 2002 under great fanfare.

https://segue.atlas.uiuc.edu/uploads/scarboro/Scarborough.BennettMonolith.pdf

The pdf above gives a good insight into what has happened to Tiwanaku

Theirs been cultural divide between the indigenous Indians and the ruling Spanish right from the start, the Spanish on one hand, have tried to ignore Tiwanaku while the indigenous political parties have used Tiwanaku as a political tool to generate nationalism. Since the revolution in Bolivia in 1952 where the indigenous Indians rose up against the Spanish upper class, Tiwanaku became a prominent feature and in the early 1960’s to reflect national pride and celebrate indigenous roots the site was “restored “for want of a better word.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/7591c0106461.jpg

Subtarrian temple 1908

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/tiwanaku2.jpg

Date unknown

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/b8b862b35655.jpg

Other moniliths at Tiwanaku

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/c0862c9590ae.jpg

iceni tribe

24th January 2013, 15:18

PUTUNI

It is known as the Palace of the Sarcophagues and Putuputuni that means where there are ports. With a rectangular foundation on its inner walls funeral chambers or priest living quarters which have an access to the central patio are found.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010397.jpg

2012

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/9c11ef301e6c.jpg

1908

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010408_zps9db65581.jpg

Here we can see a drainage channel that has recently been excavated, these channels run throughout the site and more are being discovered with ground penetrating radar.

Sun gate

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010311.jpg

Weighing in at 17 tons and carved out of a single block of andersite.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010309_zps0ca3051a.jpg

So called experts try to convince people that this was carved with hammer stones and bronze chisels this idea is bordering on the insane.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/4d0c0289e93e.jpg

Image from 1877

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010345_zps88733217.jpg

This is a curios slab, it’s seems too small to be of any function , I can only speculate that it may have been a working model for the builders to copy and obviously scale up.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/mpl_6_6.jpg

Image 1877

iceni tribe

24th January 2013, 15:21

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010343.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/mpl_6_3.jpg

Another image from 1877 with the same block and what appears to be a wall built between standing stones but whether this is the Kalasasaya standing stones I can’t be sure.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/P1010352.jpg

A slab with a Neat hole and raised boss still waiting to be excavated ,guess they wouldn’t know what to do with it if they did dig it out.

Personally I came away from Tiwanaku with a tinge of sadness , for me the integrity of the site has been somewhat diminished from the horrendous restoration work done in the 60’s but still never the less it’s still a impressive site and most of the tourists are fooled by the restoration.
As for the age of the site which has long been a heated debate, IMHO the standing stones are far older than the carbon dating results indicate.
How main stream archaeology can give the site a date from a piece of charcoal left in a fire or a sample of material from a mummy is extremely questionable and if you look through the carbon dating pdf below you can see that of the 130 c14 results most seem unreliable at best.

Carbon dating results

http://www.scielo.cl/pdf/chungara/v36n1/art03.pdf

Tiwanku museum

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/MegalithoHiddenInca1265_zpsf6e5980c.jpg

This was hidden from view behind a make shift screen

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/skulls/IMG_8763.jpg

Retired display of skulls which is rumoured to have been sold off to private collectors

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/skulls/skullstiwanaku.jpg

Skull dispay two years ago

iceni tribe

7th February 2013, 16:22

Puma Punku

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/PumaPunku_location-1024x971.jpg

At its peak, Puma Punku is thought to have been "unimaginably wondrous”, adorned with polished metal plaques, brightly coloured ceramic and fabric ornamentation, trafficked by costumed citizens, elaborately dressed priests and elites decked in exotic jewellery. Current understanding of this complex is limited due to its age, the lack of a written record, the current deteriorated state of the structures due to treasure hunting, looting, stone mining for building stone and railroad ballast, and natural weathering.
The area within the kilometre separating the Puma Punku and Kalasasaya complexes has been surveyed using ground-penetrating radar, magnetometry, induced electrical conductivity, and magnetic susceptibility. The geophysical data collected from these surveys and excavations have revealed in the area between the Puma Punku and Kalasasaya complexes the presence of numerous man-made structures. These structures include the wall foundations of buildings and compounds, water conduits, pool-like features, revetments, terraces, residential compounds, and widespread gravel pavements all of which now lie buried and hidden beneath the modern ground’s surface.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/pumapunkadebunked6.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/GoogleEarth_Image_zps7c4ae61e.jpg

Tour operator’s drive straight past puma Punku, most guide books ignore the site and most documentaries don’t give it a mention either, the latest on BBC Four, The Lost Kingdoms of South America with Jago Cooper is an example of Puma Punka not getting a mention even though he devoted an hour to Tiwanaku and the surrounding area.
However there are many researchers and web sites that hold Puma Punka with great reverence claiming evidence of advanced technology, ancient aliens and the like and personally it was one of the sites that has intrigued me for a good many years.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/143638214-1.jpg

South east corner with only one tier of block work remaining.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/2171409589_82da0c64c0_z.jpg

South water channel

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/3355365862_e319fa3247_z.jpg

West face

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/P1010513_zps362f1707.jpg

Excavated water channel on the north face and as you can see whatever they were connected to has long disappeared. They may have been used as an overflow for a sunken water temple or a flow and return for a water fountain or shrine.
As the Akapana is now viewed as a water temple or storage tank could Puma Punka have been a sort of substation for the huge irrigation system built for maintaining the water levels on their raised bed growing system.

RAISED-BED IRRIGATION AT TIWANAKU, BOLIVIA

A 32-year drought from 563-594 AD caused widespread devastation but There is evidence, however, that a lesson was learned. The rulers took the catastrophe as a warning. They revolutionized their agriculture, instituting a totally new system which, some believe, allowed the empire to prosper for an additional 400 years. In any event, Tiwanaku agricultural surpluses after the drought can be attributed to raised-bed irrigation. Water surrounded raised agricultural mounds Warmed during the day, the water kept the crops from freezing during the cold Andean nights and even extended the growing season. Raised-bed agriculture grew to encompass an immense area, at least 19,000 hectares (47,120 acres). Studies show that land cultivated in this manner could yield 20 metric tons of potatoes per hectare. Construction of the raised-bed irrigation system no doubt required major earth moving operations.

http://www.waterhistory.org/histories/tiwanaku/tiwanaku.pdf

A c14 date has been taken from the lowest part of the infill, which has been calibrated to AD 536–600 which uncannily matches the drought dates given.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/pp_zps8e47b473.jpg

Notable features at Pumapunku are I-shaped architectural cramps, which are composed of a unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy. These I-shaped cramps were also used on a section of canal found at the base of the Akapana pyramid at Tiwanaku. These cramps were used to hold the blocks comprising the walls and bottom of stone-lined canals that drain sunken courts. I-cramps of unknown composition were used to hold together the massive slabs that formed Pumapunku's four large platforms. In the south canal of the Pumapunku, the I-shaped cramps were cast in place. In sharp contrast, the cramps used at the Akapana canal were fashioned by the cold hammering of copper-arsenic-nickel bronze ingots.[8][10] The unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy is also found in metal artifacts within the region between Tiwanaku and San Pedro de Atacama during the late Middle Horizon around 600–900.

Keystone cuts are also found at Angkor Watt, Karnak, Denderra and Ollantaytambo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryqi5J3XZNM

Good footage of the water channel.

http://interactive.archaeology.org/tiwanaku/project/pumapunku1.html

2002 excavation report.

iceni tribe

7th February 2013, 16:24

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/IMG_4368_zps44c018fd.jpg

Partially excavated top

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/MegalithoHiddenInca1336_zps8da820ca.jpg

The Plataforma Lítica, or stone platform on the east side has the largest blocks, the heaviest being 131 tons made from red sandstone and quarried 10 km away.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/DSC08041.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/P1010447_zpsf57b7916.jpg

Petrographic analysis located the quarry for the abundant red sandstone 10 km away—an incredible distance considering that one of the stones alone weighs over 130 tons. The source of the green andesite stones—the material from which the most elaborate carvings and monoliths were made—is on the Copacabana peninsula, 90 km across Lake Titicaca.
Below is a link to a 2002 experiment to extract a nine ton block, load it onto a 15 metre reed boat and sail it the 90km across the lake.

http://penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/PDFs/47-2/Reed%20Boats.pdf

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/MegalithoHiddenInca13652_zpsbc238db4.jpg

Here we can see a portion of a gate that is a match to the “gate of the sun “standing in the kalasasaya which has led some to the belief that they were part of the same structure, but which one has been moved to where I have no idea.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/PUMAPUNKUBOLIVIA10_zps42218c13.jpg

There has been 10 H blocks uncovered so far made from green andersite and weighing 1.5 tons each and all nearly identical to each other.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/P1010414_zps84c0b10d.jpg

The craftsmanship and detail is extraordinary.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/MegalithoHiddenInca13212_zpsda35ce66.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/20pumapunku-5b15d.jpg

Back of the H blocks.

iceni tribe

7th February 2013, 16:27

Although 99% of Puma Punku has vanished the fragments that are left tantalize the imagination as to how the site once would have looked.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/MegalithoHiddenInca13252_zps23703bbd.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/P1010508.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/MegalithoHiddenInca1410_zps0c9777b2.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/7_Puma_Punku.jpg

The right hand side block at the rear looks unfinished.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/143638203.jpg

Close up of the same block suggesting that hammer stones were used to form the recess.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/PUMAPUNKUBOLIVIA1_zps138e1069.jpg

This block seems to get the most attention, as there is a perfect groove with identically spaced holes drilled along the cut.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/143638231.jpg

To achieve this, the holes may have been drilled out, abrasive sand added into the holes and then a bronze alloy saw used to make the groove.no such saw has been found yet so I’m just speculating.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/P1010482.jpg

Another block with a drilled groove, this block looks like it could have been used as a mould.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/PUMAPUNKUBOLIVIA29_zps4ae6ee8f.jpg

More drill holes in what was once a lintel, with extraordinary detail that is just still visible.

iceni tribe

7th February 2013, 16:29

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/d330.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/P1010436_zps9075a22c.jpg

There’s still plenty of blocks still left to be excavated.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/P1010492.jpg

Nearly every block is uniform with acute angles and iconography, except this one which has what appears “fish scales” not unlike the Bennett monolith and fluting down one side.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/e9b4fcec37dd.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/ed0f58c30c4d.jpg

Two of the oldest photos of puma Punku I can find.

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/puma%20punka/pumapunku_blocks-433x700.jpg

H block diagram.

Puma Punku seems to stand alone from all the sites I visited, although there is virtually nothing left what remains is an example of incredible masonry skills and even more bewildering is any trace of the tools that were used.
What we have to bear in mind is that this masonry would have been executed under the direction of an architect, who would have designed the building before the first stone was cut and because of the complexity of the H blocks, this makes this site standalone from anything I have seen on my trip to South America.

Cidersomerset

7th February 2013, 17:01

Thanks Iceni tribe more excellent photos and insights of your journey...

I watched a BBC 4 documentry a couple days ago about the cloud people of Northern Peru and thought of your thread cheers Steve.....

Lost Kingdoms of South America - 1. People of the Clouds

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01pwtqy/Lost_Kingdoms_of_South_America_People_of_the_Clouds/

Jago Cooper journeys into the Peruvian Andes in search of the Chachapoya people, whose funeral traditions challenge assumptions about ancient human behaviour

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lost Kingdoms of South America - 2. The Stone at the Centre
Dr Jago Cooper visits the ruins of Tiwanaku in the Bolivian Andes and finds evidence of an ancient people with amazing understanding of their environment.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ync3lNs6SKU

Lost Kingdoms of South America - 3. Lands of Gold
Through the mountains and jungles of Colombia, Dr Jago Cooper goes in search of the truth behind one of the greatest stories ever told - the legend of El Dorado.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lost Kingdoms of South America - 4. Kingdom of the Desert
In the deserts of coastal Peru, Jago Cooper explores the rise and fall of Chimor, the first empire of South America, whose subjects transformed the landscape.

Hazel

8th February 2013, 09:35

What an amazing introduction to the forum... the video material makes for a perfect follow up
a big thank you to all concerned.

AlexanderLight

4th March 2013, 15:14

Thank you for this extremely fascinating thread, iceni tribe!

I am glad that you have included Brien Foerster, which I consider to be one of the most important researchers of the pre-Inca and Inca civilizations.

"After studying the megalithic structures of Peru and Bolivia for years, Brien Foerster is going beyond the official version of history, bringing evidence that many of the monuments attributed to the Inca civilization, in fact, predate them. According to Brien, the Incas only replicated the original megalithic constructions (which are more technologically advanced) and the differences are visible even to the untrained eye.

Brien and his team of experts suggest that the pre-Inca civilization possessed advanced technology which enabled them to build astonishing megalithic sites, some of them composed of stones as heavy as 120 tons (e.g. Sachsayhuaman, Cusco).

The ancient builders used a variety of rocks for their megalithic sites, including diorite and granite, which are some of the hardest rocks on Earth.

The stones have been transported from the quarries for miles over rough terrain, precisely polished, and fitted together so perfectly that not even a human hair can be fitted between most of the stones (e.g. the walls of Coricancha site in Cusco, Peru).

Brien Foerster's work includes the study of the elongated skulls of South America, and the results are astonishing - to say the least. He authored 8 books and appeared 4 times in History Channel's program Ancient Aliens (season 3), and he is currently the assistant director of the Paracas History Museum in Paracas (south of Lima)."

I'm subscribing to this thread. Please, keep the pictures coming.

iceni tribe

12th March 2013, 14:37

hi AlexanderLight

i like Brien and i think he is one of the best guides in Peru and if you need a guide he is your man but i don't necessarily agree with all his assumptions/theories.....well not yet .
Brien's theory is that all the megalithic building's in South America are possibly thousands of years old and were built by the "coneheads" he could be right but i follow my own path and have not come to a conclusion.
the dating and DNA analysis on 10 elongated skulls was promised just after christmas but their seems to be some hold up on this .here is the latest e mail from Brien sent on the 1st March.

Just a little note to show you that things are progressing. Samples from about 10 elongated skulls were sent in November, and the from 5 in January. The geneticists, in order to save time, money and maximize efficiency are processing all the samples at the same time.

From our team in the US:

"I am working on analyzing the data for the first samples tested over the next week or so. The teeth will all be done together simultaneously and are sand blasted and ground but now must be shattered further with liquid N2. After that, there are several days of robotic calcium removal steps and then the final cleansing of the DNA. That is a simplified version of what is going on."

So we have to wait to see what dates come back for these skulls.

As for dating the ancient monuments ,Robert Temple and colleague Professor Ioannis Liritzis, of the University of the Aegean at Rhodes, a former nuclear physicist who turned his expertise to the needs of archaeology, has devised the Liritzis Dating Technique, the technical name of which is optical thermoluminescence. By his technique he can date the time of construction of a stone building by taking a small sample at the join of two blocks of stone. His technique yields a date for when that stone was last exposed to sunlight, or in other words, when the stones were placed together to build the structure.

more here

http://www.freemasonrytoday.com/features/item/240-getting-at-the-truth-about-ancient-egypt

this new process of dating has been floated about for a couple of years and i believe it's now been excepted as a legitimate dating system ,lets hope that this system makes it down to South America and we can finally put some dates onto these monuments and end the speculation one way or another.

As for the continuation of this thread , Puma Punka was the last site i was able to see with my own eyes and photograph, from now on im working from images and archaeological reports obtained from the internet which im still trying to put into some sort of order.

a came across this image from Tiwanaku

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/TIWANAKU/figure2021p.jpg

in this image we can see the base of a round column and what looks like iconography on what appears to be on a standing stone , i didn't see this while i was there but i do know of a older site that has both of these features which i will post when im happy with it.

cheers for now

iceni tribe

24th June 2013, 17:45

Caral: The Earliest known Civilization in the New World

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ancient%20monuments/800px-PeruCaral01.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ancient%20monuments/bcd3c8d8a156.jpg

Early in 2001, a site located on the Pacific coast of Peru which had been known for over a hundred years made headlines all over the world. The site of Caral and the cluster of eighteen similarly dated sites located in the Supe Valley included in what is now called the Caral-Supe Civilization are important because together they represent the earliest known urban settlement in the Americas nearly 4600 years before the present

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ancient%20monuments/caralpyramidmayor-1.jpg

The City of the Pyramids

Caral was discovered in 1996 by Peruvian archaeologist Ruth Shady. Shady knew of the existence of some sandy hills near the Supe River bank and with a grant from the National Geographic and the help of two archaeologists and three students of archaeology from the University of San Marcos in Lima, began the first excavations in 1994.
Subsequent work with government support, including the use of heavy machinery of the Peruvian Army to clear the rubble from the surface of the first hill, led to the discovery of an astonishing stone building nearly the size of four football fields and about 5 stories high. This finding gave credibility to the research and gathered new resources which allowed continuing the work. In total six gigantic pyramids were discovered. Additional 26 architectural structures of various sizes and functions have also been described including several medium and small buildings, temples, residential areas, public plazas, an amphitheater, stores, shrines and streets. It has also been established the existence of places near the city, on the south bank of the river, equipped with canals and irrigation systems presumed having been used for agriculture.

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/314935#ixzz2HyfwXi3J

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/314935#ixzz2HyflmwtD

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ancient%20monuments/caralampitheatre.jpg

Further investigations

In 1997 Ruth Shady published her work "The Sacred City of Caral-Supe at the dawn of civilization in Peru" (in Spanish) where she describes and supports the pre-ceramic origin of ancient Caral. The interest derived from her work allowed her to get in touch with researchers at the University of Chicago who worked with her to establish the age of organic objects found in the ruins using the radiocarbon dating technique. Through radiocarbon analysis it was confirmed that the city would have developed starting from around 2700 BC. Some other structures at sites near Caral gave a date of about 3000 years BC.

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/314935#ixzz2HygFIboh

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/ancient%20monuments/caral-anfiteatro.jpg

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/naf09_2010/caralquipu.jpg

Quipu at Caral

The recovery of quipu from the civilization of Caral, if the context and dates are correct, suggests several things. First, this is additional evidence that Caral was a precursor to the Inca civilization (since the Incas also used quipu). Secondly, quipu as a tradition dates at least 2000 years older than we recognized prior to this point. Thirdly, and most importantly, if quipu were indeed a form of written communication, they are among the earliest forms of writing in the world, only slightly younger than cuneiform, which has been identified at the Mesopotamian site of Uruk approximately 3000 years BC.