ANNOUNCEMENT: Huge Scale Environmental and Humanitarian Projects to Repair The Earth

[Cjay]

It's time.

I have been dropping hints for a couple of years and the time has come to announce my plans. I need your help. I invite contributions of all kinds and the participation of people all over the world to make this happen.

The overview of these projects is so large that I have to split it over several posts.


PROJECTS OVERVIEW

Our overall mission is to preserve biodiversity, repair degraded farmland and improve soil on a global scale – and teach others how to do it, quickly, inexpensively and sustainably. In the process, we will improve the quality and quantity of food produced and create global food security. We will also improve air and water quality. Of course, each project has its own mission, which should be obvious when you read the overview.

I will spare you the details because just getting through the overview (including all of the videos) is literally a whole day's work. The videos are important to help understand the reasons why these projects are so important. If you only read the text and watch the first three videos and a few of the other short videos, you could do that in one hour.

What follows is a broad overview of a group of inter-related, complementary environmental and humanitarian projects. These projects have been in the planning stage for over 2 years. My own research spans more than 15 years. Some of my colleagues’ research spans more than 30 years. All of the technologies exist today, fully proven and ready to go. We will be working in conjunction with several universities and newly created research institutes.

Some of the projects will generate huge profits (but that's not the point of doing it). The mission is environmental and humanitarian. Other projects are not for profit (charities), so any profits will be re-invested in expanding the scope of the projects and in replicating the projects hundreds of times over, worldwide. The more iterations of the projects we do, the lower the cost per project.


The time frame for completing most of these initial projects is 3 to 5 years. If funds were available, we could start almost immediately. For example, we could plant hemp crops before Christmas. Industrial projects require longer lead-times of 6 to 12 months for federal, state and local planning approvals. We can do ALL projects simultaneously, given sufficient funding and resources.

To make these plans a reality, we need two main types of help - money and people. The initial projects will require a workforce of thousands.

Capital required, about $100 million to start all of the projects and about $300 million to complete the first round of projects, which includes at least one of each of the things discussed below. There are a range of government grants available for most of these projects which may provide between $5 million and $10 million for the initial projects planned for Wagga Wagga. As I said, profits will be reinvested to expand the scope and duplicate the projects.

Rule #1 – NO greedy people or “vulture capitalists” will be welcome to join us. The environmental/humanitarian mission is far too important to allow it to be derailed by greed.

At this point, we have at least five potential sources of funds - all slow to flow. One individual is willing to donate the money to a charitable foundation so we can do ALL of these projects, globally. He said he doesn’t need to make a profit and he doesn’t want to make a profit. I asked if he will be offended if we do make a profit. He replied, “that’s your problem, not mine.” That's all very nice, however, those funds are not yet available.

I have assembled a core team of extraordinary people with complementary skills, resources and networks. My colleagues and I, and several interested parties, are patient but very keen to get started as soon as possible. They have said to me, “it is not a matter of if we will do them but when. We WILL do ALL of these projects. We MUST. The planet and humanity NEEDS us to do all of them.”

Longer term (beyond the first 3 years), these projects will be replicated and adapted hundreds of times over, in as many locations as possible. If we have to self-fund these initial projects, it will take several lifetimes to achieve the mission. If we have sufficient funding to complete the first round of projects, they will generate enough profit to achieve the global mission in this lifetime.


PRESERVING BIODIVERSITY & REPAIRING THE LAND – QUICKLY, CHEAPLY and NATURALLY

We plan to establish a community owned 2,000 hectare (5,000 acre) Gene Bank/Food & Medicine Forest of extraordinary biodiversity, with an eco-resort, and giant greenhouses like the Eden Project (see below). We will build eco-villages with about 500 homes made from hemp building materials – these will be surrounded by sustainable and profitable organic/permaculture farms.

All of these initial projects will be done close to Wagga Wagga, NSW, Australia (half way between Melbourne and Sydney). We expect that it will become a major tourist attraction, hence the eco-resort. We want to encourage visitors from all over the world so they can see what we are doing and take inspiration from it to encourage participation in similar projects in their own communities.

We will follow-up with many similar projects worldwide. We will emphasise teaching the local communities how to create and maintain the forests as well as how to make a sustainable, profitable living from the organic/permaculture farms surrounding the Gene Bank permanent reserves (similar concept to the Willie Smits video, below).

We plan to establish a Farm Repair Institute to teach farmers how to repair their land and how to convert from unsustainable, toxic chemical farming back to sustainable organic farming. We will hire Peter Andrews, Geoff Lawton and Willie Smits (and others) as teachers/mentors. (Each of the named teachers/mentors is featured in one or more videos below.)

The Eden Project, Cornwall, England

Capital expenditure about 135 Million Pounds (GBP)
Over 1 million visitors per year
In 9 years, contributed close to 1 Billion Pounds back into the local economy
Eden Project is a charity


Eden Project - short introduction (duration 1:27):

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Innovators: Eden Project (5:05): (you can skip the first 30 seconds)

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Willie Smits: How to restore a rainforest (22:39):
(The single most inspiring environmental repair story I have ever heard/seen.
If you watch no other video, watch this one)

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Permaculture Greening the Desert: (duration: 37:08)
(Geoff Lawton runs the Permaculture Research Institute in Northern NSW - and worldwide).

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2,000 Year Old Food Forest in Morocco (4:37):

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To Be Continued in Part 2...

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PART 2


Australian Story: Peter Andrews

The videos of the first two episodes about Peter Andrews – Of Droughts And Flooding Rains – are no longer available online but the transcripts are online. These videos below are the third and fourth episodes about Peter Andrews. Most people are lucky to have just one episode made about them – Peter Andrews was featured in four episodes!

In 2005, “Australian Story featured a farmer and horse breeder called Peter Andrews who seemed to have a rare ability to transform degraded Australian landscapes into thriving oases.

He called it natural sequence farming and it was producing some spectacular results. But for nearly thirty years, Peter Andrews' work was rejected by scientists, bureaucrats and politicians alike until the evidence became difficult to ignore.

The Australian Story episodes on Peter Andrews, generated unprecedented viewer response.

Now some very influential and highly placed Australians have rallied to his cause and the scientific evidence and international interest are building as well.

The result has been some significant progress but some of the same frustrations.”

http://www.abc.net.au/austory/specials/rightasrain/default.htm
(click the video link at the top right of the screen – duration: 28:06)

http://www.abc.net.au/austory/specials/rightasraintwo/default.htm (29:00)
It is worthwhile also watching the 'extra' videos available from the link above.


BIOCHAR

Biochar is charcoal made from plant or animal waste by heating the waste to high temperatures in a very low- or no-oxygen kiln (so it doesn't burn to ash). When added to the soil, biochar has dozens of benefits, including:

improving soil fertility
improving fertiliser retention in soil
reducing or eliminating the need for chemical fertilizers
improving soil biomass/ecosystems (micro and macro organisms)
improving soil aeration
improving soil moisture-retention
improving soil drainage
reducing soil erosion
rehabilitating huge areas of degraded farmland
making barren land fertile
growing much healthier plants
reducing or eliminating the need for pesticides
improving water quality (by reducing chemical fertilizer and pesticide usage and reducing their run-off as a result of improved Cation-Exchange Capacity and natural carbon filtration)
reducing atmospheric CO2 (by sequestering carbon from plants in soil for
thousands of years)
reducing emissions of other greenhouse gases from soil
growing a lot more food (up to 900% increase in harvest) of much higher nutritional quality

All of these benefits have been scientifically verified.

The world's most hyper-fertile soils are in the Amazon. These soils, known as terra preta, are man-made by adding biochar and compost to the practically barren clay soils that dominate the region. Approximately 10% of the Amazon Basin's soils are man-made! That is approximately 90 million hectares (225 million acres) of man-made soil. Imagine what we can achieve globally with modern technology.

The extraordinary fertility of these man-made terra preta soils continues today, as much as 7,000 years after the biochar was added.

Incidentally, the world's best carbon for water filtration is biochar made from mammal bones.

We plan to build a factory in Wagga Wagga to produce approximately:

40,000 tonnes of biochar (per year) and
26,000 tonnes of bio-fuels (jet fuel, bio-diesel) (per year) and
15,000 tonnes of organically-sourced liquid nitrate fertilizer (per year) and
20 Megawatts of electricity (continuous) plus
enormous amounts of heat that will be used in various processes in adjacent factories.

The raw materials we will use are all waste products such as agricultural waste, food processing waste, forestry waste, bones and manures. The technology we will use is the world's best - there are ZERO emissions. EVERYTHING is recycled, even the exhaust from the diesel, kerosene and syngas-powered generators. We could also grow crops specifically for making biochar.

Nature has NO WASTE, so why should we?

We will follow up with about one hundred similar systems, as well as smaller mobile systems and on-farm systems, throughout Australia and several hundred more worldwide.

The current design allows for scaling up to three times the production capacity listed above but we prefer a decentralized model to dramatically reduce the transport distance/costs for the raw materials and finished products and to provide off-grid power to large farms and local communities. Any excess power will be fed into the national grid, wherever possible.


The Secret of El Dorado (The discovery of Biochar) (48:56):
(BBC documentary, 2002)

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More information (text) about this documentary: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/eldorado.shtml


Biochar - agrichar - Terra Preta (10:53):
(2007 documentary from ABC’s Quantum program discussing Australian and international biochar research)

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The Promise of Biochar - Part 1 (9:35):

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The Promise of Biochar - Part 2 (Biochar on the Farm) (2:25):

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SOIL BIOLOGY

A teaspoon of healthy soil contains billions or even trillions of micro-organisms. Biochar complements the soil biology. The micro-organisms take up residence inside the biochar where they are protected from predators and climate extremes.

It is the soil micro-organisms that are responsible for making the nutrients available to plants. Soil biology can protect against plant diseases and pests, similar to how pro-biotics help our digestive and immune systems.

Healthy soil produces delicious tasting and highly nutritious food which has a longer shelf-life than food grown in virtually dead soils where chemical fertilisers, herbicides, fungicides and pesticides are used.

Farms using chemicals are highly toxic places. The food they grow is contaminated with chemicals, radioactivity (from the mineral phosphorus used in chemical fertilizers) and the food has very poor flavour and poor nutritional value. Chemically-grown foods and highly processed foods are responsible for the majority of cancers and other diseases, worldwide.

Any farm currently using agricultural chemicals can revert to organic farming IN ONE DAY by stopping the use/abuse of agri-chemicals, applying biochar, compost tea to inoculate the soil with beneficial micro-organisms and customised liquid organic fertiliser based on comprehensive soil analysis for each site.


Paul Stamets: 6 ways mushrooms can save the world (18:18):

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Growing BIG Vegetables using Compost Tea (7:24):

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My colleague, Richard, manages 350,000 hectares of organic farms, including a single farm of 200,000 hectares (500,000 acres) that produces more than 1 million tonnes of rice each year. They will be transitioning away from monoculture but that is another story.

Richard explained to me how he uses 1,000 litre tanks with a spa-blower to produce a type of "compost tea". He adds a spoonful of laboratory-selected beneficial soil microbes, including nitrogen-fixing bacteria and some nutrient to feed the bacteria as they multiply exponentially. After 30 minutes of aerating the water, the weight increases from 1,000 kg to 1,170 kg! The extra 170 kg is mostly nitrogen taken from the atmosphere by the bacteria. This "tea" is then diluted and sprayed onto crops using broadacre irrigation systems. The results are stunning.


WATER

There are a variety of technologies that use magnets, vortices and/or light to alter the physical structure of water (basically de-clumping the molecules) which produces incredible health benefits for plants and animals, including humans. Using these technologies, crops use less water and yield more nutritious food. We will incorporate these technologies into our broadacre crop irrigation systems.

Magnetic Water (5:50):

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Strawberry Fields and PHOTONIC Structured Water (7:53):

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Human Emotions Alter Water Molecules! (3:16):

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(This research has been replicated many times, including in Australian schools)


To Be Continued in Part 3...

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PART 3


INDUSTRIAL HEMP

We have been asked to manage the expansion of the hemp industry in Australia and the southern hemisphere, in partnership with an Australian/European joint venture group of companies who have been researching, growing and processing hemp for decades. They are the world leaders in hemp plant selection and breeding, hemp farming, materials science and processing technologies. They currently grow and process hemp in Australia (from Cairns to Hobart), 6 EU countries, Russia, China, South Africa, Thailand, New Zealand, Canada and Uruguay (soon also Brazil, Argentina and Chile), and process hemp in USA and other countries where hemp cannot be grown legally.

Part of the task we have been given is to manage the expansion of the hemp crops to 300,000 hectares (750,000 acres) in 5 to 7 years.

We will build hemp processing mini-mills on farms which separate the raw materials - seeds, leaves, bast (bark) fibres and hurd (the woody core of the plant) - and make them more compact to reduce the cost and environmental impact of transporting to secondary processing factories). We will build a large mill with several adjacent factories for "second-stage processing" in Wagga Wagga and in several other strategically located regional centres.

We will produce a wide range of products, including:

Food (hemp seed is the most perfectly balanced food on the planet)
Medicine (can be used to treat over 500 different ailments)
Body care & cosmetics
Building materials such as hempcrete, chipboard, and one-piece moulded house frames (in sections) and roof trusses that snap together (eliminating the need to hand-select straight, knot-free pieces of lumber, eliminating the manual tasks of measuring, cutting and joining - and eliminating the joining hardware, glue, etc.)
Plastics and fibreglass substitutes using hemp fibre instead of glass.
Paper (the world's best paper is made from hemp).
Textiles including pure hemp and 50/50 blends of hemp and wool.
Advanced "technical" fibres, similar to kevlar (or better).
Car parts (Mercedes Benz, Audi, VolksWagen and other car manufactures use hemp products today).
Bio-diesel, ethanol, lubricants, wood-preserving oils for decks and outdoor furniture.
...and many more! There are over 50,000 products in the world today that are made from hemp.

Some added benefits of growing hemp are that it suppresses weeds and improves the soil. For instance, if we grow hemp in summer followed by a winter grain crop, the grain crop will yield up to 50% more than if we had not grown the hemp.


Henry Ford's Hemp Plastic Car (1941) (0:33):

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Lotus Eco Elise car made with hemp (plus a segment on hemp building materials) (5:24):

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ORMUS

ORMUS is a rich cocktail of minerals including "trace elements" and monatomic gold. Used in small amounts, ORMUS provides extraordinary health benefits for plants, animals and humans. When ORMUS is added to the soil, the growth rate, health and vitality of plants is dramatically improved and the ORMUS provides the plants with natural pest and disease resistance.

I have identified a staggeringly huge source of ORMUS, large enough to replenish the minerals of the world's degraded farmland, owned by a benevolent man who is willing to sell it for an incredibly low price. (Everyone else sells ORMUS for an ridiculously high price.) Our charitable foundation will provide it to the poorest farmers, free of charge.


CONVERTING BROWN COAL TO HUMUS

Simple technology exists to convert brown coal to humates and humic acid, which are normally found in rich compost. My home state, Victoria Australia, has the world's largest brown coal reserves - enough to literally green the deserts of the world. That is not to say that we would want to green all of the deserts because we want to preserve those extraordinary ecosystems. However, with a combination of all of the methods and technologies outlined in this overview, we can achieve amazing results, almost instantly.


That's more than enough information overload for one day. Remember, this is just a broad overview.

We look forward to your comments, advice, questions and suggestions - and most of all, your help and participation. This is a global project, ultimately requiring hundreds of thousands of people to make it happen.

[Tane Mahuta]

Hi cjay, wanna say a big thankyou for this post...

Thankyou!!... thankyou!!... thankyou!!

"got some homework to do"

TM

[onawah]

Great stuff! I hope you get all the funding you need asap.
I don't think you will have any problem getting helpers!

[Kiforall]

Never mind funding, where are the donations of equiptment we will need for this.

TPTW could use this as a reconciliation or am I getting ahead of myself here.

Damn look at the time, 6am here, 2 hours and the gifts of God awake.

Another long night on Avalon :ranger:

Zoe x


Zoe x

[Rocky_Shorz]

I put it out to the Clinton and Gates Foundation for you...

I'll hit many more for you tomorrow to get you rolling...

I still want my Vertical Farms... ;)

[witchy1]

Thanks Cjay

[Jean-Luc]

Great. Here is a 10 pages PDF of you post #1 to help spread the info far & wide.

http://www.vigli.org/Avalon/Huge_Scale_Environmental_and_Humanitarian_Projects_to_Repair_The_Earth_Nov-2012.pdf

http://www.vigli.org/Avalon/Huge_Scale_Environmental_and_Humanitarian_Projects_to_Repair_The_Earth_Nov-2012.pdf

[Cjay]

I'm touched by all of your replies. I thought no one was interested because when exhaustion overcame me at first light this morning, there were already more than 350 views and not a single reply.

Zoe, I really LOVE that you said "we". This is no longer "my" project. It is "our" project.

Jean-Luc, making my long post into a pdf for publication outside this forum is a nice touch. Thanks!

I need to get an official website up soon because the projects need a central point of contact.

Over the last few years, I have been speaking privately about my vision and plans with a lot of people and every one of them has given me positive feedback. The more I discuss it and the more I work on the detail, the more inspired I become and the more the ideas expand.

I hope these projects will take on a life of their own because repairing the Earth is one of the biggest challenges facing humanity.

Thank you, all of you.

[Dennis Leahy]

Universe bless you, Cjay. :~)

There are a LOT of good, even GREAT, people in this world who simply are not planners, strategists, motivators, big thinkers, or have 'far-sighted' vision. Harnessed, corralled, nurtured, even herded toward this vision, these good people can and will supply the energy - the people power - that the vision requires to come to fruition.

Do not be discouraged if this takes off slowly. One of the beneficial disillusionments that I have had over the past two years was the realization that most people do indeed behave within a "herd mentality" or a "hive mentality", and so, before acting, will spend time looking around the herd, taking the pulse, seeing what everyone else is doing. Generally, people are not independent thinkers - even if they argue that they are. I'm not sure if this is nature or nurture - only a long term 'experiment' in a society much less regimented and measured could answer that. But for the present and foreseeable future, it will be very beneficial to visionaries and strategists to incorporate humanity's current behavioural tendencies into the plan rather than try to fight it (or worse, ignore it.)

I fully expect humanity will, in David Icke's words, "rise up", but strategists and planners and visionaries need to learn how to work with the herd mentality rather than against it. It is too ingrained to reasonably expect people to be able to switch it off and become independent thinkers.

Note that there are many here at Avalon who have broken free from (or never really were part of) the herd mentality. You free-thinkers are the exception, not the rule! But don't get smug! :~) You simply have a different role to play - that of shepherd. Or maybe a better analogy would be as a Border Collie (that will help to keep you humble hahahaahahha.)

Cjay, may I recommend (as I myself have recently embraced in The Reset Button project), that what you need to gather first are loyal Border Collies - shepherds - that share your vision. A gigantic corporation or a government could amass the resources to directly influence the herd (and in fact, they have - with billions of dollars of marketing and advertising), but you cannot. Concentrate on finding as many shepherds as possible, and instruct them to find more shepherds. I am completely convinced that this is the infrastructure necessary to influence the rest of humanity, the herd, into life-affirming behavior and action. Obviously, the people already involved with "permaculture" or strictly organic gardening/farming is a good pool of candidates.

I'm in.

Dennis

[Youniverse]

Looks really good! Love the biochar and hemp ideas. Will pray for you!

[blufire]

I agree 100% with Dennis’ assessment . . . I would like to add a bit of my own personal experience.

First, I have begun to realize I am more of a ‘cat herder’ . . . I wish I could be a border collie or even like my old beloved German Shepherd that never leaves my side. But, alas I have found that people who are more in the organic/green/alternative/Avalon type arenas are more like cats. . . . . they are very hard to keep organized long enough to get much accomplished. If you stroke them the wrong way they are apt to hiss, claw you and worst yet . . . bite. The tend to only pay attention to their own well being and think that anyone outside that which interests or benefits them is not worth their attention or worse yet worth giving much or their time too.

I also agree 200% with Dennis (if I read correctly) regarding large corporation’s and government programs. First work hard to understand ‘truly’ where they are coming from and use this knowledge to your advantage. There are many people who do the actual work within these conglomerates that are more in our camp . . . they will help you. They will help you understand how to get some of those millions you need to fund your operation.

You need your other border collies that share your vision and will work along side with you.

But you/we also need the financial ability of ‘them’ and their ability to maneuver the greater herd.

Also too, if I may,to truly influence our future planet we have to learn to work with ‘them’ and stop ramming against them. They control the masses . . . we will influence and gently plant seeds that will take root and spread like wild fire.

An example . . . . I am deep in a project I never thought I would be in. This project involves waste coal, Alpha Natural Resources, Chesapeake Gas, several government agencies, a company that reclaims damaged strip mined land and my little town and me. I am learning quickly how to ‘root out’ people like us in these massive companies that will help me herd this project to a multimillion dollar green sustainable project. And it is working. My ultimate goal is to start generating ongoing funds, specifically Alpha Natural Resources, that will spread out to other small towns that have been ravaged by coal mining and natural gas drilling.

These conglomerates listen . . . . you just need to make absolute sure you herd your cats/ducks/ border collies in the generally same direction and that you are very clear on your goal . . . . and keep drilling it in every chance you can . . .also spin it to where it becomes their idea . . . egotistical they are.

So don’t be so quick to discount the greedy vulture capitalists . . . . they are only at the top, the people that actually get things done and keep these companies running are more like us.

And to be totally honest . . . I have yet to find someone or large corporations in the alternative world that have millions to invest. Usually all I find are more people like us needing millions to begin to change the world. There are MANY who are willing to put in the sweat equity (work) but are usually financially challenged.


Good Luck . . . pace yourself . . . . keep your eye on the goal . . . . and don’t let anyone tell you won’t succeed.

And I hope you find yourself a pack of Border Collies.

[Rocky_Shorz]

I'm touched by all of your replies. I thought no one was interested because when exhaustion overcame me at first light this morning, there were already more than 350 views and not a single reply.

Zoe, I really LOVE that you said "we". This is no longer "my" project. It is "our" project.

Jean-Luc, making my long post into a pdf for publication outside this forum is a nice touch. Thanks!

I need to get an official website up soon because the projects need a central point of contact.

Over the last few years, I have been speaking privately about my vision and plans with a lot of people and every one of them has given me positive feedback. The more I discuss it and the more I work on the detail, the more inspired I become and the more the ideas expand.

I hope these projects will take on a life of their own because repairing the Earth is one of the biggest challenges facing humanity.

Thank you, all of you.

I put it over to the owner of Virgin Air who is thinking of taking part in colonizing Mars, if it makes sand capable of producing here, it will there too...


sorry I didn't see it sooner, I had followed the link you left in the lotto thread and was still going through it when I spotted this one...

[sandy]

Thank you Cjay, Dennis and blufire for the confirmation of belief I have in humanity and for being Shepards or Border Collies. :whoo

Really I think you are human rolemodels that along with many others will eventually lead humankind to a world of cooperation versus competition :)

I will keep following and spreading the word where I can as who knows when one might light a candle under somebody and a movement really does take off!!

[eaglespirit]

Lovin' It Cjay and All...The ^^^Entrainment^^^IS Here!

[Cjay]

Thank you all for your replies. Forgive me if I don't address each reply individually. I have read every word and I am digesting your comments. I really appreciate your input. Please keep it coming. This community is truly inspiring. By the way, I love Border Collies and the herding analogy.

A few months ago, I literally looked up at the stars and thanked the universe (out loud) for all the help I have received. I asked the universe to please continue to help me to complete my mission. Since then, I have experienced so many amazing synchronicities. It appears the money will come soon, from benevolent sources, then we can make some more tangible progress. When that happens, I will provide regular progress reports, photos and videos for all the world to see.

[panopticon]

G'day Cjay,

Firstly, thank you for your efforts and information.
I applaud your vision and passion.

I would caution against a top-down managerial approach (I have no idea what your idea is on this but your mention of decentralised project management is, in my opinion, excellent).

An exceptional resource you and your team may find interesting, that gives a different way of viewing power relations and management practices and how they relate to transformative social change, is powercube.net (http://www.powercube.net/).



Our overall mission is to preserve biodiversity, repair degraded farmland and improve soil on a global scale – and teach others how to do it, quickly, inexpensively and sustainably.


OK, got my attention. Sounds interesting.



each project has its own mission
group of inter-related, complementary environmental and humanitarian projects


Excellent, keep projects separate so funding is not tied but inter-related so as to allow for mutual cooperation.
Following the permaculture flower well ("Diversify" and "Integrate" are essential).

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Lmr1O-mf_7U/TS0KEivoNiI/AAAAAAAAAPk/5itWoZgcTso/s1600/PermaculturePrinciples.jpg



Some of the projects will generate huge profits (but that's not the point of doing it). The mission is environmental and humanitarian. Other projects are not for profit (charities), so any profits will be re-invested in expanding the scope of the projects and in replicating the projects hundreds of times over, worldwide. The more iterations of the projects we do, the lower the cost per project.


Again, looks good. How are funds from projects in separate countries/regions to be shared across projects? Off the top of my head maybe the formation of an international NGO which redistributes finds to local NGOs might be a way of overcoming this. I assume you have already planned how this would happen. Maybe have a look at Andrew Jones' evaluation of local NGO failure as a cautionary tale ('Permaculture in Refugee Camp Rehabilitation in Macedonia: Useful Lessons and Ongoing Challenges (http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home/opendocPDFViewer.html?docid=406c34174)'.



To make these plans a reality, we need two main types of help - money and people. The initial projects will require a workforce of thousands.


Are you looking at using a volunteer "workforce"?



Rule #1 – NO greedy bastards or “vulture capitalists” will be welcome to join us.


Nice sentiment. I agree that project "integrity" should be important.



Longer term (beyond the first 3 years), these projects will be replicated and adapted hundreds of times over, in as many locations as possible.


Nice. Just be cautious as sometimes local power dynamics and circumstances may need careful evaluation prior to project implementation. Again from the various posts you've made I assume you're aware of this.



We look forward to your comments, advice, questions and suggestions - and most of all, your help and participation. This is a global project, ultimately requiring hundreds of thousands of people to make it happen.


Your group has undoubtedly thought of all this already but you asked for input and thoughts so...

There would be a need for multiple levels of Government engagement to create an atmosphere of co-operation on the local, regional, state and national levels. They can't be ignored. Then there's the co-operation that can be given from numerous NGOs at all these levels.

I might suggest engaging with the Union Movement as there are many ways that they can assist in getting information disseminated, not to mention the various religious organisations, chambers of commerce and community business groups (Lions etc).

This may not be particularly popular but maybe presenting information in a value neutral way (in certain settings) might assist in getting funding. Passion is great, but too much and it becomes zealotry which looks like fanaticism and tends to distance segments that might otherwise have been useful. Farmers are pragmatists (as are many other people) and it could be misconstrued that some of their practices are destroying the biosphere. This will just get them angry as many of them have simply been following "best practice" as presented by various authorities (eg Farmers Federation, Government departments, Universities). Alternatively, if the information on Ormus, Biochar or Compost Tea (for example) is presented as a way of improving impoverished soil, and evidence can be provided that they work, then many may listen (at least in Australia there are a large number of examples where this has occurred). It would improve their soil and increase productivity.

Have you had any contact with the RIRDC (http://www.rirdc.gov.au/)? Maybe there might be some assistance available on a project by project basis that evaluates the outcomes and presents the information to a wide audience. Also there's a number of philanthropic organisations (and individuals) that might be interested (eg Philanthropy Australia (http://philanthropy.org.au/)).

Don't forget to talk a lot about "CO2 off-set potential", "desalinisation", "soil fertility regeneration", "countering soil erosion" (Australia doesn't have that much anyhow!), "biodiversity", "integrated systems approach"... You get the idea. Lots of keywords and positive re-enforcement so the listener can say to themselves "Wow, this is great" (which it certainly sounds like it is) and lots of scientific reports and project projections for researchers to pour over. The more the better, the number crunchers love it.

Anyway, that's off the top of my head...
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Cjay]

Thanks for your input, panopticon.

I'm familiar with the permaculture flower and David Holmgren's work. I didn't name him or Bill Mollison in the overview because I was trying to keep it compact. I have taken much inspiration from them and many others. I will certainly be inviting them to participate as teachers / mentors.

I have saved the pdf from the UNHCR site containing Andrew Jones' assessment of the failures in Macedonia and will add that to my list of things to read/study.

We are very aware of the different dynamics in different countries, cultures and local communities. Every location will have its own unique challenges. We don't expect to take charge of each project, rather we will provide inspiration, education and guidance - and we will take guidance from any constructive individual or organisation.

Thanks for the links to RIRDC and Philanthropy Australia. It is very early days but we will follow up as soon as we can.

Those keywords and phrases will be useful and we will provide links to relevant research.

Phew, so much work, so little time.


- EDIT -

I forgot to mention that there will be opportunities for volunteers although most workers will be paid.

[bennycog]

do us a favour and run for council or government please cjay :) help us make a real good start.. you would be perfect

[Cjay]

Thanks bennycog, I needed a good laugh! If I could clone myself...

[sheddie]

Thank you for this Cjay, always good to hear of someone actually doing something postive to move us forward and on such a global scale.

....and for giving us hope for the future

:)

[astrid]

Good work Cjay..
I'm with you all the way.

I'm studying with David Holmgren myself next year,
all things going well.

Permaculture, is the future, IMO.
Also look up Dr. Phil Callahan
and ROCK DUST,

[Rocky_Shorz]

this would make a good start for a World Changing Projects subsection of the forum...

We could start putting all the Projects Avalon is working on in one section so none of them get buried...

[InTheBackground]

Cjay, I am so impressed by people who can not only see the big picture and necessary restructurings and fixes, but who can also enact a workable plan. Many kudos and blessings to you and your people -- I wish you EVERY possible success with these and future endeavors. And from the roots of my own small garden, may I also thank you for the reminder about compost tea! Making a note to look for an aquarium pump and tubing for this spring's gardening.

RockyShorz, I don't know who you are, but I've been reading your posts for nearly two years now, and quite frankly, they fascinate me. =)

Carry on!

[778 neighbour of some guy]

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Btw when biochar can increase crop yields by 880 % and magnetic water increases it by up to 23 % and the fertilizer tea works miracles as well i would be very very very anxious right now to see what a combination of these three could do to a veggie garden, i would very much like to see a zucchini the size of of a small minivan ( or a large one for that matter), and with a fast growing crop like hemp that triple whammy combination can revolutionise the building industry practically overnight, carbon sucked out the air by the 100 thts of tons.

Great post Cjay

[Selene]

I agree 100% with Dennis’ assessment . . . I would like to add a bit of my own personal experience.

First, I have begun to realize I am more of a ‘cat herder’ . . . I wish I could be a border collie or even like my old beloved German Shepherd that never leaves my side. But, alas I have found that people who are more in the organic/green/alternative/Avalon type arenas are more like cats. . . . . they are very hard to keep organized long enough to get much accomplished. If you stroke them the wrong way they are apt to hiss, claw you and worst yet . . . bite. The tend to only pay attention to their own well being and think that anyone outside that which interests or benefits them is not worth their attention or worse yet worth giving much or their time too.

I also agree 200% with Dennis (if I read correctly) regarding large corporation’s and government programs. First work hard to understand ‘truly’ where they are coming from and use this knowledge to your advantage. There are many people who do the actual work within these conglomerates that are more in our camp . . . they will help you. They will help you understand how to get some of those millions you need to fund your operation.

You need your other border collies that share your vision and will work along side with you.

But you/we also need the financial ability of ‘them’ and their ability to maneuver the greater herd.

Also too, if I may,to truly influence our future planet we have to learn to work with ‘them’ and stop ramming against them. They control the masses . . . we will influence and gently plant seeds that will take root and spread like wild fire.

An example . . . . I am deep in a project I never thought I would be in. This project involves waste coal, Alpha Natural Resources, Chesapeake Gas, several government agencies, a company that reclaims damaged strip mined land and my little town and me. I am learning quickly how to ‘root out’ people like us in these massive companies that will help me herd this project to a multimillion dollar green sustainable project. And it is working. My ultimate goal is to start generating ongoing funds, specifically Alpha Natural Resources, that will spread out to other small towns that have been ravaged by coal mining and natural gas drilling.

These conglomerates listen . . . . you just need to make absolute sure you herd your cats/ducks/ border collies in the generally same direction and that you are very clear on your goal . . . . and keep drilling it in every chance you can . . .also spin it to where it becomes their idea . . . egotistical they are.

So don’t be so quick to discount the greedy vulture capitalists . . . . they are only at the top, the people that actually get things done and keep these companies running are more like us.

And to be totally honest . . . I have yet to find someone or large corporations in the alternative world that have millions to invest. Usually all I find are more people like us needing millions to begin to change the world. There are MANY who are willing to put in the sweat equity (work) but are usually financially challenged.


Good Luck . . . pace yourself . . . . keep your eye on the goal . . . . and don’t let anyone tell you won’t succeed.

And I hope you find yourself a pack of Border Collies.

Blufire, your comments are beyond perceptive, beyond profound or even useful. They are It.

Understand, CJay, that you may actually have important allies among those who may appear to be working for “the other side”; this is a crucial realization.

Yes. But.

You must also understand that some who may come forward “to help you” are actually working to shut you down… s*x, I know. But you will get both; this is the good news. The good ones are good, or at least useful. The rest can be ignored.

But, even so, nothing is ever black and white. And the middle between all these forces is where you will get your work done.

All my profoundest best wishes, CJay, you are riding a mighty tiger ~

Cheers,

Selene

[Cjay]

Thank you everyone for your input.

Astrid, we are aware of the benefits of the right types of rock dust. Thanks for the heads up on Dr. Phil Callahan. His work is very interesting. I mentioned in the opening post a very large source of ORMUS/minerals - 150 square miles.

Plumber, we will have extensive permanent field trials using various blends of biochar made from plants, bones and manures, as well as compost, soil microbe teas, trace minerals, water technologies, etc. The video you posted is excellent. I have downloaded it and added it to my extensive library.

Selene, the points you highlighted are important. We are aware and alert to positive and negative influences. I have some very wise and passionate helpers in my core team, including six Avalonians.

I'm loving the excellent feedback. Keep it coming.

[ulli]

Wow, Cjay, this is truly the best and most comprehensive vision / project I have read about on Avalon.
I congratulate you.
Meanwhile on the Here and Now thread we continue to fertilize people's hearts.
And considering how little room they require, I see lots of possibilities for Rocky's vertical farms, still.
It's all great.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

Interesting presentation about biochar, unfortunately the video goes black at 1 hour and three minutes, otherwise this would have been almost a two hour presentation about different aspects of biochar, hope this is an usefull contribution to this great thread.


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This seems to be a part of an unintentional part two?

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And from Cornell University.

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Stanford

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[778 neighbour of some guy]

Compost tea seminar, excellent info too.

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[Cjay]

Thanks again, plumber, for your valuable contribution. This information is gold. I haven't watched the videos yet - so much information, so little time - but I will add all of them to my video library and watch them as soon as I can.

For anyone interested in biochar, the most comprehensive resource for information about biochar research is the International Biochar Initiative:
http://www.biochar-international.org/
(http://www.biochar-international.org/)

[panopticon]

G'day Cjay,



Richard explained to me how he uses 1,000 litre tanks with a spa-blower to produce a type of "compost tea". He adds a spoonful of laboratory-selected beneficial soil microbes, including nitrogen-fixing bacteria and some nutrient to feed the bacteria as they multiply exponentially. After 30 minutes of aerating the water, the weight increases from 1,000 kg to 1,170 kg! The extra 170 kg is mostly nitrogen taken from the atmosphere by the bacteria. This "tea" is then diluted and sprayed onto crops using broadacre irrigation systems. The results are stunning.

I was having a think and reckon that if you can provide evidence that this has noticeable results (through broad acre irrigation) then it could be possible, just with this one example, to provide a "beginning to end system".

Does the tea, following fermentation and before it is diluted, have a shelf life or require immediate use (eg does it decrease in effectiveness when bottled)?

If it doesn't then it can be bottled and marketed.
If it does then a prefabricated unit could be designed for onsite use.

I've had a quick look at some of the scientific literature to do with aerated compost tea (ACT) and non-aerated compost tea (NCT)...

I now know more about it than I ever wanted to (we use a bucket :twitch:).

The lack of research data (in particular the benefits of ACT in plant growth, though NCT has been researched in relation to overcoming disease etc) in conjunction with variable product consistency and high application rates seems to be getting pointed at as the main reasons for its lack of uptake in the agricultural sector.

From this it would indicate that there may be a place in this market if research data can be gathered and a consistent product supplied. I also came across numerous commercial systems however if a good relationship could be established with a research agency/farmers federation, and evidence of product consistency guaranteed, then there may well be an opportunity here (though a much deeper analysis and thorough review process would be needed).

I found a review paper on it from CSIRO (2011) that might be a launching pad for the section of your team interested in this element of your model:
'Use and understanding of organic amendments in Australian agriculture: a review (http://www.publish.csiro.au/nid/84/paper/SR10059.htm)'.

The use of extensive research plots you propose will produce the much needed quantifiable data that may well provide an impetus for the various alternatives to mined fertilisers. This is an excellent approach since many broad acre farmers, as you are well aware, can be quite conservative.

Yes, there are various kits like this on the market already, however if a consistent product can be developed then it might get some large scale farm uptake (ie non-organic farms) while producing a start-up revenue stream (plus access to grant money for the research itself) and a good track record for the project to expand on (build up social capital).
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

References:
'Microbial Starter for the Enhancement of Biological Activity of Compost Tea (http://www.fspublishers.org/ijab/past-issues/IJABVOL_12_NO_1/8.pdf)'.
'Overview of Compost Tea Use in New South Wales (2007) (http://www.recycledorganics.com/publications/reports/composttea/composttea.pdf)'.
'Compost Tea Production Practices, Microbial Properties And Plant Disease Suppression (http://www.soilace.com/pdf/pon2004/5.Scheuerell.pdf)'.
St. Martin, C. C.G. (09/2012). "Effects and relationships of compost type, aeration and brewing time on compost tea properties, efficacy against , phytotoxicity and potential as a nutrient amendment for seedling production". Biological agriculture & horticulture (0144-8765), 28 (3), 185.
DOI: 10.1080/01448765.2012.727667
Soil health issues for Australian cotton production: Growers’ perspective (http://www.cottoncrc.org.au/files/82386485-d3cd-4d22-9b73-995c00488bb3/SoilHGS.pdf).

[blufire]

Hi cjay,

okay lets do some basic boot strap numbers. . . . Say with the biochar method only.
a farmer has a 200 acre farm that has been conventionally farmed for fifty years. Soil is as dead as a doornail.

What would be basic start up cost for equipment.

What would cost per acre be for production (growing)

What would be the yield (lets use field corn) first year through following 5 years.

How are invasive weeds managed until soil is healthy. How many years or management cycles before healthy soil can be maintained?

Can product or resource for creating biochar be sustainability produced on a farm this size or would the farmer have to purchase the elements.

Last but not least. . . Have you looked all the way to the core foundation "who " is behind this particular movement. . . . I see a massive flock of circling vultures of a particular bloodline

[panopticon]

Last but not least. . . Have you looked all the way to the core foundation "who " is behind this particular movement. . . . I see a massive flock of circling vultures of a particular bloodline

Which foundation/movement blufire?
The 'International Biochar Initiative (http://www.biochar-international.org/)'?

[Cjay]

Hey pan, Richard has lots of proof, as do many others. It definitely works. I can't publish some things just yet, especially when it involves others' businesses.

We will establish several large permanent research sites in a wide range of soil types and climate zones to test/demonstrate the effectiveness of each type of soil amendment alone and in combinations (eg. biochar + compost + liquid organic fertilizer + ORMUS + bio-tea + water technologies). Side by side comparisons speak for themself.

I am not sure about the shelf life of the teas but aerobic micro-organims need air, so shelf life would be short. Generally, they are applied immediately after brewing. Kits may be the best way to go. I prefer solutions that empower individual farmers to do it themselves as inexpensively as possible.

We will be actively educating farmers how to maximise soil fertility using 100% organic methods. It's so much easier than they think. The brainwashing of the agri-chemical businesses needs to be undone. We need a complete mindset reset.


Blufire, there are so many variables. I can't provide specific answers right now. The short answer is, organic farming is considerably less expensive than chemical farming and will deliver significantly more harvest and higher quality. Benefits are very rapid - virtually immediate. Return on investment is in the first harvest. The soil will continue to improve every year for decades, then eventually level out - opposite to the ever-declining soil health that is virtually guaranteed when using agri-chemicals.

I believe that we should continue to add biochar for at least a century, if not, forever. Some Amazonian terra preta soils are two to three metres (up to 10 feet) deep. They didn't create that in one year.

Solutions will be found for all types of invasive weeds. Where there is a will, there is a way. Hemp is extremely effective for suppressing weeds. I know hemp can't be grown legally everywhere but there is a wave of change happening right now. There are lots of other ways to control weeds. Often weeds are a symptom of poor soil health. Permaculture teaches us to use weeds as indicators of problems. We do NOT need chemicals on farms.

Biochar can be produced in amounts ranging from grams to ship-loads. One of my aims is to make a range of equipment to suit farms of all sizes and factories that will sell the biochar products as cheaply as possible.

Just for example, European Union countries produce an estimated 200 million tonnes of biomass WASTE every year. The European Commission has realised there is a direct connection between not recycling that biomass waste and the current European financial crisis. They are drafting legislation now, for enactment in 2013, to mandate the recycling of all biomass waste. Extrapolate this globally and we can produce several billion tonnes of biochar per year. If we add purpose-grown crops into the mix, the potential biochar production will be far more than double.

If we use whatever biomass waste is available - plants, bones and manure - and convert some (or most) of it into biochar, add beneficial soil microbes, liquid organic fertilizer (a by-product of producing biochar), rock dust or ORMUS for trace minerals, then if the balance is right, whatever you grow in that soil will produce more harvest than before. Then you will have more biomass waste available to produce more biochar and increase the harvest even more.


A cautionary note: Not all biochar is good for the soil. Some biochar can have very negative impacts on soil health. Some biochar will work well in some soil types and not well in other soil types. Think of biodiversity in terms of soil micro-organisms (bacteria, fungi, etc.) and soil macro-organisms (earthworms, insects, etc.), biodiversity of source materials for making biochar and biodiversity above the ground. Any type of monoculture, including in making biochar, is a recipe for disaster. Community co-operatives will be far more beneficial for all than individual farmers working alone.

I will provide a lot more specific data as time goes on. The new website will be like an encyclopedia of organic farming that will continue to expand for many years. These projects go way beyond the traditional concept of organic farming. Combining all of the soil improvement methods has never been done before on a large scale.


Have you looked all the way to the core foundation "who " is behind this particular movement. . . . I see a massive flock of circling vultures of a particular bloodline

Would you like to elaborate on that?

[blufire]

Last but not least. . . Have you looked all the way to the core foundation "who " is behind this particular movement. . . . I see a massive flock of circling vultures of a particular bloodline

Which foundation/movement blufire?
The 'International Biochar Initiative (http://www.biochar-international.org/)'?


Yep . . . .and actually the entire technology and philosophy

Took me about 30 minutes on IBI to take it to the source

[blufire]

Cjay . . .

You altered your post.

At 6:00 am my time when I read your last post. You stated in the last paragraph that you know International Biochar Initiative is backed by Monsanto and subsidiaries.

Why did you change your post?

[blufire]

Blufire, there are so many variables. I can't provide specific answers right now. The short answer is, organic farming is considerably less expensive than chemical farming and will deliver significantly more harvest and higher quality. Benefits are very rapid - virtually immediate. Return on investment is in the first harvest. The soil will continue to improve every year for decades, then eventually level out - opposite to the ever-declining soil health that is virtually guaranteed when using agri-chemicals.


This post tells me that you have never actually farmed (large scale) organically and/or that you have not yet collaborated with an organic farmer that has actually brought dead soil back to a healthy fully balanced producing level

[onawah]

I hope you will elaborate on this, Blufire. It sounds like you are on to something...
Though you yourself have said that even those who appear to be black hats can turn out to be allies, it's good to know just who they are and who they are allied with.





Last but not least. . . Have you looked all the way to the core foundation "who " is behind this particular movement. . . . I see a massive flock of circling vultures of a particular bloodline

Which foundation/movement blufire?
The 'International Biochar Initiative (http://www.biochar-international.org/)'?


Yep . . . .and actually the entire technology and philosophy

Took me about 30 minutes on IBI to take it to the source

[sandy]

Hmmmm don't know what to think of this turn of events?? Does make more sense though as to the funding that is expected to come about shortly..................................

[ThePythonicCow]

Cjay . . .

You altered your post.

At 6:00 am my time when I read your last post. You stated in the last paragraph that you know International Biochar Initiative is backed by Monsanto and subsidiaries.


I can look at the edit history of posts. The above is a true statement :).

[onawah]

Needless to say, but one supposes someone has to say it...if the backing is from Monsanto, I would certainly have very serious doubts about their real motivations, and as to whether white hats could actually, viably, be part of that organization and do any good...hmmmm...:ohwell: :suspicious::evil:

Cjay . . .

You altered your post.

At 6:00 am my time when I read your last post. You stated in the last paragraph that you know International Biochar Initiative is backed by Monsanto and subsidiaries.

Why did you change your post?

[blufire]

Cjay . . .

You altered your post.

At 6:00 am my time when I read your last post. You stated in the last paragraph that you know International Biochar Initiative is backed by Monsanto and subsidiaries.


I can look at the edit history of posts. The above is a true statement :).


Hi O great forum wizard . . . . .

I would appreciate this greatly. Cjay altered post #34 significantly.

Actually I just got home and checked my ipad, his post was still on it unrefreshed . . this is what the original post said

It is good that you can back me up on this if needed.



I know Monsanto is involved behind the scenes of the International Biochar Initiative. They are in bed with Rockefellers, DuPont’s and other vultures and bloodlines. I despise much of what they do but I’m not worried about them. We outnumber them by millions to one. We will prevail and they will change their ways or become irrelevant in my lifetime

So my question remains on the table Cjay. You know Monsanto and subsidiaries are the foundational drive behind IBI, the technology and the implementation. Why do you try to hide this knowledge? Are you weaving a tangled web?

As onawah brought up I have become much more strategic, flexible and open ended in moving forward with my own work to heal our planet. I also know I have confused the hell out of several members on the forum with what appears to be personal hypocritical thinking and philosophy.

I actually have come to believe that ‘they’ are leading us to the future we debate and dream of, but it will be a very difficult road . . . .a road with a very bright destination many generations to come.

What gets my hackles up and makes my usual cool fire flame red hot is when somebody tries to ‘play me a fool’ or is working from a foundation that is misinformed or poorly thought out or should I say ignorant?

It is not difficult to read between the lines on what Biochar is and why it will be needed very badly in the very near future. ‘They’ are researching and slowly implementing the technology to begin to work out the flaws . . . . just like gmo food and haarp . . . but as usual “they’ have put a spin on this technology so we will embrace it more readily. They have put a large amount of ‘lipstick on this pig’ so it will be slid past and in place with little to no fuss.

[Arrowwind]

Thank you cjay for this thread! I wish you all the best in your endeavors.

I too believe that monsanto will go... there is no other direction it can go as it is a death paradigm... and certianly they cant patent biochar so whats the big deal? When they implode there will be many ready to bring in the new frontier... the training grounds are developing and preparations are being made in gardens and universities around the world. My only concern with monsanto is the GMO seed issue. That may turn out to be a much tougher situation than healing the earth damages that they have done.


So I am in the midst of my very own experiments on my own little acreage. We purchased this 8 acres 4 years ago. It is a damaged old farm land that grew sugar beets and probably potatoes over 15 years ago so it has been fallow for a long time, now coverd with sage brush and other invasive weeds of sorts.. mostly sagebrush thank god. We receive little rain water here but a dam sight better than Jordan, us at 8 inches of annual rainfall, mostly in the non-growing season. We do have what seems like unlimited agricultural water that comes via ditch as we have good and very old water rights. For the vegetable gardens I use mostly ground well water, pure and crystal clear. I am moving to ground level irrigation lines to conserve water even though we reside on one of the largest watersheds in the nation.

I too have developed a great interest in photonic water and have been following that the best I can. I would like to see a lot more videos or writings on the topic but nothing new in quite a while now. Im planning on putting a photonic water device under our house just before we move in, we're still in construction. After the water device the line will bifurcate, one going to the house and the other will serve the gardens, all the gardens, and then livestock when we get to that. . Irrigation water will be for the pasture.

I am anxious to see what difference this water may make in the garden and Im certainly interested in hearing from poeple who are using it. I am not expecting a 23 percent increase from this water nor an 880% increase from the biochar as my planting beds are pretty good I think. These percentages may only show in very depeated areas. I am hoping for increased resistance to low temps in the garden. Im keeping my fingers crossed for that improvement. We are zone 3 at 6,000 feet.


I have put in many gardens since my arrival. All of them are being constructed differently, reflecting different concerns and philosophies... mostly my own, but core to most of it is the lasagna method of gardening... layering one type of biomass on top of the other then planting into that. I would say that I have had a high level of success with this but I added many things to my beds that were not stated in books or videos... such as: paramagnetic rock, azmonite, goat manure, chicken manure, uncomposted veggies and other table scraps, bones.

I made my own biochar last year simply through burning pine wood and old fence wood poles and smothering it. I ended up with nice crystaline charcoal in the form of the orginal piece of wood. I took a shovel to it, smashing it as small as I could. This went into two gardens, the two gardens that I am tilling.. all the others are no till.

Ah! to till or not to till that is the question!

In these two particular gardens the soil was not great. I wanted to get nutrients down about 12 inches and the soil was very compact from years of no organic matter not being added. I will likely stop tilling after this springs planting and go to a full lasagna method here too.

One product I reallly like is made by Natural Guard. They make a soil activatior that puts micro-organism into the soil. I have a friend that uses this and only this on his garden and lawn. He grows nitrogen hungry corn in the same spot year after year. Typically he cans 200 cans of corn.. All looks very well there no matter what he grows. He's a leading local garden produce supplier of the food bank.

My next goal for the coming year is to creat a hugelkulter bed which will be for the thirsty squashes. Im excited about this practice and possibility. If I see that its working I will consider it for the thirsty raspberries too. Actually Im considering digging down between the raspberry rows that I already have and burying some logs. With this bed for the squashes I will try placing my lines under the surface.
The video on this page at the top gives a breif on it. http://www.permies.com/forums (http://www.permies.com/forums)

What I am doing anyone can do. As more people implement these concepts into their private and community gardens the word will get around. Surely biochar is one of the biggest additions one can make and talk to other folks about. I fretted for a long time on where to get it. Its really simple. Just make it. Gradually I will be adding it to our pasture. I wish I could just bring a large truck in to do it but where we live thats not yet possible. Certainly a good small business potential for an industrious person. Ive seen portable biochar makers that are taken on site to the farms and the biochar is made on site.

[panopticon]

My next goal for the coming year is to creat a hugelkulter bed which will be for the thirsty squashes. Im excited about this practice and possibility. If I see that its working I will consider it for the thirsty raspberries too. Actually Im considering digging down between the raspberry rows that I already have and burying some logs. With this bed for the squashes I will try placing my lines under the surface.


G'day Arrowwind,

Thanks for the link to the video on hugelkultur:

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Can you tell me the reasons you've decided on hugelkulter as opposed to swales (or are you using a combination of them)? Maybe because you're using beds? I had not come across them before and love Sepp's work so am curious.

The wood in hugelkultur berms seem to help stabilise the structure and the decaying wood provides added nutrients etc. I'm actually just curious why you opted for hugelkultur, given that I don't know much about it, as it seems to involve retaining the original ground level and importing soil to the site, or moving soil on site, to mound. I'm probably wrong but it seems that way, or is it that the increased height is from the wood in the berm? I reckon they look like a great way to rejuvenate soil/building soil on rock and also seem like a great way of getting rid of old logs and brush when trimming and clearing fallen branches (all of which we have an over abundance of). I've got an unused acre I'm trying to work out what to do with at the moment (slight slope, rock/clay, good water access) and this looks like the ticket as I can move some silt from the dam down to it while getting rid of some scrub etc.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Update:

Ok, found a vid describing a hugelkultur swale:

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Found an article on Sepp's website (http://www.krameterhof.at/en/) about it (article from Permaculture magazine: pages 3-6 below):

http://www.krameterhof.at/pdf/presse/permaculture-pm68.pdf

Source: http://www.krameterhof.at/pdf/presse/permaculture-pm68.pdf

[Arrowwind]

I just feel that the more people experiment the more it will become recognized as a valid method of gardening. Huglekulter wouldnt be that hard for large acreage gardens. Once its set up its done for a very long time. When I walk through the pine forests Im always amazed at the dead decaying trees on the ground, there for ages, feeding the new generations.

I have a hard time doing things according to instructions... so Im thinking of digging down to bury the logs about one foot ( and actually Ive seen photos of it done by burying) so my beds wont rise up more than a about two feet with piled wood... then I will put some dirt on top but mostly I plan to do my lasagna thing on top which they kinda do but mine will be more variety in about 4 to 6 layers... I will include biochar, azmonite, manure, alfalfa hay, leaves, straw, grass clippings and dirt on top to put seeds or perhaps Ill just pop in plant starts... then after the seeds get going more mulch..... so no importing of soil.. what I dig out gets thrown on top.

Im choosing hugelkulter for this bed because the squah plants require a lot of water and this system is suppose to keep things moist.

Dont know what a swale is. Have to watch that video I guess.

cjay, if I were 30 years younger and in a position to change my life Id be there in a flash....

[Cjay]

Cjay . . .

You altered your post.

At 6:00 am my time when I read your last post. You stated in the last paragraph that you know International Biochar Initiative is backed by Monsanto and subsidiaries.

Why did you change your post?

Yes, I altered my post. I wasn't sure if you were even referring to IBI and I wanted you to clarify. I despise many of the things Monsanto et al do and are trying to do. I am a member of International Biochar Initiative so I can access the research compiled from all over the world. The puzzle is bigger than the pieces. I'm not limited by others' narrow views.




Blufire, there are so many variables. I can't provide specific answers right now. The short answer is, organic farming is considerably less expensive than chemical farming and will deliver significantly more harvest and higher quality. Benefits are very rapid - virtually immediate. Return on investment is in the first harvest. The soil will continue to improve every year for decades, then eventually level out - opposite to the ever-declining soil health that is virtually guaranteed when using agri-chemicals.


This post tells me that you have never actually farmed (large scale) organically and/or that you have not yet collaborated with an organic farmer that has actually brought dead soil back to a healthy fully balanced producing level


First, you asked:


Hi cjay,

okay lets do some basic boot strap numbers. . . . Say with the biochar method only.
a farmer has a 200 acre farm that has been conventionally farmed for fifty years. Soil is as dead as a doornail.

What would be basic start up cost for equipment.

What would cost per acre be for production (growing)

What would be the yield (lets use field corn) first year through following 5 years.

How are invasive weeds managed until soil is healthy. How many years or management cycles before healthy soil can be maintained?

Can product or resource for creating biochar be sustainability produced on a farm this size or would the farmer have to purchase the elements.

Last but not least. . . Have you looked all the way to the core foundation "who " is behind this particular movement. . . . I see a massive flock of circling vultures of a particular bloodline

Cost of Equipment? There are too many variables for a simple answer. Some primative methods for producing biochar are very inexpensive but extremely polluting. High-tech systems are very expensive and currently, for a farm of 200 acres, it would be more economical for a co-op to share the cost.

Cost per acre? Again, there are too many variables. For example, what is the detailed soil analysis? That could encompass 100 different variables. What about geographic location, climate, local attitudes, local and federal politics, type, quantity, cost and seasonal availabilty of biomass, energy costs for electricity, LPG or propane, transport, labour costs and many other factors? Anyone who quoted a specific dollar figure with little or no information would be reckless or negligent. What if they recommended a biochar that had a negative effect on the soil?

Yield? Again, there are too many variables. Generally, poorer soils will show a much greater percentage increase in yield.

It is possible to create soil on a base of concrete or rocks. How much it costs, how long it takes and how much harvest you will get depends on a wide range of factors.


I have not personally farmed onganically on a large scale. The largest farms I worked on are 500 acres and 600 acres, managed by my father and my uncle. They are tiny compared to the really big farms in Australia. We used superphosphate fertilizer, chemical herbicides to kill ragwort and a number of nasty chemicals on farm animals because that was the thinking in the '70s and '80s. We know now that organic farming is a much better way.

My colleagues have decades of experience farming organically on a large scale. They have proven that repairing severely degraded soil is possible, quickly and much less expensively than the skeptics believed. The largest scale farmer that I know personally has not used biochar because the biochar industry in Australia is in its infancy, not much biochar is available, the cost is currently much too expensive for broadacre applications to be economically viable and manufacturers of biochar are so far away that transport costs would be prohibitive. Our plans address all of those issues. He is so excited by the plans I have developed that he offered $20 million to contribute to the cost of building the biochar factory discussed briefly in the opening post.

[Cjay]

Needless to say, but one supposes someone has to say it...if the backing is from Monsanto, I would certainly have very serious doubts about their real motivations, and as to whether white hats could actually, viably, be part of that organization and do any good...hmmmm...:ohwell: :suspicious::evil:

Monsanto's involvement in agriculture and research is no reason to stop doing agriculture. Their motivation appears to be dominance/control of global food supply and greed. Monsanto did not exist when Amazonians created biochar as much as 7,000 years ago. Evidence of biochar as much as 2 million years old have been found. Biochar is basically good but there are some pitfalls. The bully is outnumbered millions to one. Be aware of the bully but do not fear them.

[Cjay]

Cjay . . .

You altered your post.

At 6:00 am my time when I read your last post. You stated in the last paragraph that you know International Biochar Initiative is backed by Monsanto and subsidiaries.


I can look at the edit history of posts. The above is a true statement :).


Hi O great forum wizard . . . . .

I would appreciate this greatly. Cjay altered post #34 significantly.

Actually I just got home and checked my ipad, his post was still on it unrefreshed . . this is what the original post said

It is good that you can back me up on this if needed.



I know Monsanto is involved behind the scenes of the International Biochar Initiative. They are in bed with Rockefellers, DuPont’s and other vultures and bloodlines. I despise much of what they do but I’m not worried about them. We outnumber them by millions to one. We will prevail and they will change their ways or become irrelevant in my lifetime

So my question remains on the table Cjay. You know Monsanto and subsidiaries are the foundational drive behind IBI, the technology and the implementation. Why do you try to hide this knowledge? Are you weaving a tangled web?

As onawah brought up I have become much more strategic, flexible and open ended in moving forward with my own work to heal our planet. I also know I have confused the hell out of several members on the forum with what appears to be personal hypocritical thinking and philosophy.

I actually have come to believe that ‘they’ are leading us to the future we debate and dream of, but it will be a very difficult road . . . .a road with a very bright destination many generations to come.

What gets my hackles up and makes my usual cool fire flame red hot is when somebody tries to ‘play me a fool’ or is working from a foundation that is misinformed or poorly thought out or should I say ignorant?

It is not difficult to read between the lines on what Biochar is and why it will be needed very badly in the very near future. ‘They’ are researching and slowly implementing the technology to begin to work out the flaws . . . . just like gmo food and haarp . . . but as usual “they’ have put a spin on this technology so we will embrace it more readily. They have put a large amount of ‘lipstick on this pig’ so it will be slid past and in place with little to no fuss.


I addressed the reasons why I altered the post, here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52523-ANNOUNCEMENT-Huge-Scale-Environmental-and-Humanitarian-Projects-to-Repair-The-Earth&p=592510&viewfull=1#post592510).

I am not, have never been and never will be associated with Monsanto in any way. As far as I know, everyone I am associated with despises Monsanto.

I am not trying to hide the knowledge of Monsanto's involvement in the International Biochar Initiative. It raised my hackles too when I found out. Monsanto do not own the research or the technology or control the debate, though I am sure they would love to.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

I am almost squirming in my deskchair from sheer joy when i read al of this, i am trying now to imagine a hugelkultur growbed with biocharred soil on it, fertilised with compost teasoup irrigated with magnetic water, i am seeing beanstalks climbing up as high as imaginationland, oooooooooooooo goodiegoodie, and btw, mass scale implementation could be less of a problem as one might think imo, everybody with a yard or garden can do this small scale, even on a small scale individual harvests would explode exxxxxponentially,
no way all of this can be eaten by mom and pop, they will look for means to unload their crops, sooner or later markets will erupt in every town or village, cheap and excellent goodies for less then supermarket prices will be everywhere, big agro will be stupid to ignore this fact, the only way to stay in business for them will be to join the iniative, and thats fine, just keep it organic and heirloom and let people grow their own crops too.

I think this is a great thread, thinking of possiblities is fun, never stop doing that, i wish i had a garden to dick around in and try all of this out.

I will stick around here for a bit.

regards

Ed

Ed edits some more small scale ideas into this........................... concrete trucks..........are nothing else then driving mixers, i can easily picture a concrete truck driving up to a farm or maybe even a fleet of them, mixing up the char, soil, watered down with magnetic compost tea on the go and delivering this right on the spot, and even large scale farms are not needed for mass production, i bet your sweet ass that in smaller countries or densely populated areas where there are no massive fields people with back yards can produce just as much all together as big agro does, hey, just my imagination running wild, i say, let it run.

sp_IObIkInQ

[Cjay]

Arrowwind, Pan and Plumber, thanks for the great posts about Hugelkultur.

[panopticon]

...even large scale farms are not needed for mass production, i bet your sweet ass that in smaller countries or densely populated areas where there are no massive fields people with back yards can produce just as much all together as big agro does, hey, just my imagination running wild, i say, let it run.
]

G'day Plumber,

You and others might find Dave Holmgren's presentation on 'Retrofitting The Suburbs for Sustainability' of interest:

Ftg6qHaj_y0

Remember... 'Permaculture is a subversive process'. :victory:
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[778 neighbour of some guy]

Thanx Pan, that was educational, entertaining and funny and really helpfull by bringing understanding of how a more or less selfsustaining social system can decline or grow, the example made use of an "accidental neighbours" sort of deal, it would be very productive when people could sign in by choice to participate in these kind of systems ( plenty of examples to go around) however in existing residential suburban neighbourhoods this would be way more fun i think. Although living in nature in your own very roomy cozy looking and feeling, freestanding adobe shack with complemetary food garden would be very nice too, grinn.

[blufire]

I am conflicted on whether or not to remain on this thread.

I do not want to derail or seem negative or combative against what you (Cjay) are doing. I agree and believe 200% that these projects have got to begin and flourish in order for us to heal our planet.

BUT

I feel very strongly that in order for us to be successful we have got to reexamine how to move forward and be very careful in the foundation we build from.

I have come to believe that Monsanto and subsidiaries and more importantly the ‘Controllers” are addressing humanity’s best interests and more specifically the preservation of humanity. They have all the ancient knowledge and understand more clearly and foundationally what our past (hundreds of thousands of years) and what our future will be.

We hate so deeply and are so angry (negative) at what we ‘think’ ‘they’ are doing that we cannot see the possible Truth.

We have to find a way to see past what we think ‘they’ are doing and educate ourselves more subjectively and pragmatically.

I am not saying to become ‘them’ or to partnership with ‘them’ but to understand more clearly what they are truly trying to do. From this understanding we can adapt and use this knowledge and move forward to do our own part in the healing of ourselves and the planet. A working together . . . from perhaps different perspectives . . . to achieve the same goal

‘They’ (the ultimate controllers) are working from a massive global scale (even solar system) that spans far from the past and far into our future . . . .we (at this point and time) are working from a infinitesimally small scale against theirs. We are working almost from half a generation to half a generation (50 years) scale . . . . . We will achieve very very very little from this perspective.


I understand that my biggest hurdle is trying to get people to understand that the ‘controllers’ are not evil and do have the survival of humanity utmost as their goal.

We get so caught up in the meaningless things (largely money) that we cannot see the ultimate goal. We cannot see Their forest because Our trees get in the way.

A very small example of what I mean . . . and I will use some of your (Cjay) points or statements.



Rule #1 – NO greedy bastards or “vulture capitalists” will be welcome to join us. The environmental/humanitarian mission is far too important to allow it to be derailed by greed.

But you will need and use the 'greedy vulture capitalist' millions to get your project up and running and for it to succeed.

Greedy vulture capitalist? Have you looked at the foundational charter members of IBI? How many millions do you think these Capitalists will make selling you/us the technology and product to make Biochar? They HAVE to make billions to implement Biochar on a global scale.



I am not trying to hide the knowledge of Monsanto's involvement in the International Biochar Initiative

And yet you changed your post where you acknowledged Monsanto and subsidiaries are involved. You are simply not aware (or don’t want to be aware) how deeply they are involved.



I am a member of International Biochar Initiative so I can access the research compiled from all over the world

What do you think your membership fees went to support?



I am not, have never been and never will be associated with Monsanto in any way. As far as I know, everyone I am associated with despises Monsanto.


By becoming a member of IBI and buying their technology and by supporting and implementing it and the product required to make Biochar on a massive scale and by adopting their philosophy you are solidly associated with Monsanto.

Can you not see the disconnect here and the extreme internal conflict based on your/our hatred and unawareness and ignorance of what ‘they’ are truly doing?

You (Cjay) do not understand the ultimate reason why Monsanto /controllers are developing Biochar technology, along with GMO food and HARP (and other) And I only have a very good idea, at best, based from my new ideology and understanding . . . we have to read between the lines and project way into the future.

I believe strongly we have got to stop ramming against ‘them’ . . . take a step back . . . reanalyze . . . .adapt and adjust . . . . and move forward from a foundation that is solid and based from positive understanding.

Humanity and by humanity I mean all of us . . . . controllers, ‘they’, sheeple, whatever we are, everyone have to begin to work together in understanding and with grace and peace.

I know I am sounding harsh, but I truly believe that now is the time and we have got to Shift now to a deeper more foundational understanding. The time is now.

[ThePythonicCow]

I have come to believe that Monsanto and subsidiaries and more importantly the ‘Controllers” are addressing humanity’s best interests and more specifically the preservation of humanity. They have all the ancient knowledge and understand more clearly and foundationally what our past (hundreds of thousands of years) and what our future will be.
They may well have access to such ancient knowledge that we don't.

But this may well be in good part because they have monopolized that knowledge, keeping it from us.

They may well be addressing the preservation of humanity, as they see it.

But given what we've seen of the systemic abuses of humanity in the little bit of history we know of, I don't trust that their notion of preserving humanity is in our best interests, and I certainly do not willingly grant control of my being to others who have been so untrustworthy in so many ways (secretive, apparently supporting and fostering the abuse, murder, torture, ignorance and disease of millions and billions of us, apparently fostering great destruction of this planet, ...)

[blufire]

I have come to believe that Monsanto and subsidiaries and more importantly the ‘Controllers” are addressing humanity’s best interests and more specifically the preservation of humanity. They have all the ancient knowledge and understand more clearly and foundationally what our past (hundreds of thousands of years) and what our future will be.
They may well have access to such ancient knowledge that we don't.

But this may well be in good part because they have monopolized that knowledge, keeping it from us.

They may well be addressing the preservation of humanity, as they see it.

But given what we've seen of the systemic abuses of humanity in the little bit of history we know of, I don't trust that their notion of preserving humanity is in our best interests, and I certainly do not willingly grant control of my being to others who have been so untrustworthy in so many ways (secretive, apparently supporting and fostering the abuse, murder, torture, ignorance and disease of millions and billions of us, apparently fostering great destruction of this planet, ...)


Are they keeping the knowledge from us?

They feed it to us bits at a time and sometimes in quantities so large we confuse the hell out of it . . . religions are an example.

We have enough of the knowledge that we can make informed decisions and take care of ourselves, family and community.

This is done everyday right here on this forum. Everyone adds the bits of knowledge they are ‘remembering’ and understand and we all debate, argue, pontificate and struggle . . . but we are finally hearing it and adapting.

I’m very happy that ‘they’ are preserving humanity as they see it because at least they are doing something. The rest of humanity (99% ?) sit around and basically bemoan the fact the governments aren’t giving us enough hand outs.

What are WE doing to literally preserve humanity? What?

Abuses?

What about the benevolent?

Yes GMO food definitely has problems . . . . but where we are at this time, technology wise, at least gmo food is feeding a large majority of population. The flip side is with out this less than perfect food millions would be starving and hundreds of million would be dead by now, with millions more to follow. They are working through the imperfections everyday and our bodies will adjust.

See what I mean?

Would it be wonderful to have the perfect food and the ability to farm it now YES! . . . but we do not and 'they' do not . . . . but it is being done and we will be there in the next 50 years or so.

Destruction of the planet?

Yes we are consuming many natural resources globally. But without this consumption we would not be able to develop our science and technology to take us in to the future. We are communicating now via global internet and computers. Without the massive consumption of earth’s natural resources that have given us the science advancements and technology we would still be using smoke signals.

The bigger picture is or flip side I see (now) is this consumption and seemingly destruction is leading us to greater technology (fertilized by their more complete knowledge) that will actually repair and heal our planet and literally enable us to take our place within our solar system and beyond.

We dream of a planet that is sustainable and abundant for all of humanity and this is where they are leading us. Through greater advancement of science and technology and their more complete knowledge.

To get to this abundant healed earth will take much hardship and pain. But we will get there this time . . . not in my generation or the next several but who knows where we will be 50 to 100 years? But it starts NOW.

Look where we have come from ‘their’ work and knowledge. We have come from horse and buggy to space travel in a very short amount of time.

Again I ask what WE have done for the planet and humanity?

I have come to at least respect their effort and vision. They are working for the future global humanity as a whole. I am working hard to understand their lead and what and why they are doing what they are doing . . . . I am listening as hard as I can to the information they are giving us. I will use this information to adapt and grow and take care of myself, family, friends and community.

Again I ask point blank . . . .what has the rest of us done besides bitch and moan? We are all imperfect . . . all of us . . . ‘them’ included . . . .we are equal straight across the board. They are preserving humanity on a global future scale with their greater knowledge . . . what are we doing on even a tiny scale with the knowledge we have?

I am working my ass off . . . learning things I never thought I would need to learn . . .working until I drop in the bed every night. But I see a glimmer that I know will become a shining star.

Cjay is working his ass off going after the vision he has been given.

And there are others . . . we have to be each others “iron that sharpens the others iron”. We have to be each others Muse. But it HAS to be from a solid well honed foundation and not based on victimization, hatred, fear, apathy and stupidity.

[onawah]

I certainly wasn't suggesting that Monsanto's involvement in agriculture and research is a reason to stop doing agriculture.
Yes obviously: "Their motivation appears to be dominance/control of global food supply and greed".
So what is their motivation for backing the biochar project?
No reason to fear a bully, but no reason not to question whether the fox has been put in the henhouse, either...
I think it's only logical that some of us might like to know if anyone has looked into what Monsanto's involvement with the biochar project is all about, and to be watchful, knowing their history and their roots.
As to any good intentions TPTB might have, we also must keep in mind that much they have done to keep the race alive also appears to have been geared towards degrading and mutating our genome, to create once again, a slave race!



Needless to say, but one supposes someone has to say it...if the backing is from Monsanto, I would certainly have very serious doubts about their real motivations, and as to whether white hats could actually, viably, be part of that organization and do any good...hmmmm...:ohwell: :suspicious::evil:

Monsanto's involvement in agriculture and research is no reason to stop doing agriculture. Their motivation appears to be dominance/control of global food supply and greed. Monsanto did not exist when Amazonians created biochar as much as 7,000 years ago. Evidence of biochar as much as 2 million years old have been found. Biochar is basically good but there are some pitfalls. The bully is outnumbered millions to one. Be aware of the bully but do not fear them.

[Arrowwind]

no way all of this can be eaten by mom and pop, they will look for means to unload their crops, sooner or later markets will erupt in every town or village, cheap and excellent goodies for less then supermarket prices will be everywhere, big agro will be stupid to ignore this fact, the only way to stay in business for them will be to join the iniative, and thats fine, just keep it organic and heirloom and let people grow their own crops too.

]

hmmm..... thats exactly why I am the president of our local farmer's market..;)

my goal is to have a bed and breakfast farm stay and maybe eventually to have guest gardeners and wanna be farmers come to experience the different types of gardens. As soon as we can we will have pastured chickens and rabbits and two steer on in on the plan,, but it might end up being one steer and one milk cow.

Thanks for putting that video up. Ive seen a number of different woods used in huglekulter and I was thinking that I would use pine.... but cotton wood I have and in abundance so I will go with that.

Im going to lasagna layer the wood becasue I want it to produce well in the firt year. I see no reason why it would hurt. The richer and more diverse the soil ammendments the better... but yes, second year will be better.

You know , im really tired of folks complaining.. whenever someone tries to do something big they want to hook it up with evil forces... just drop all this monsanto bs for gods sake. Monsanto will do what they do and we will do what we do. There is no patent possibility so no worries. The best man/woman will win. No matter how much biochar they dump on their fields it aint gonna work cause their chemicals kill micro-organism and you have to have healthy microorganisms for biochar to work.

I saw the same stuff being done with the the Thrive movement. Sabatoge at its worst for people of light are trying to sabatoge people of light due yet to continued ignorance and fear. Its a ptb wetdream.

[blufire]

You know , im really tired of folks complaining.. whenever someone tries to do something big they want to hook it up with evil forces... just drop all this monsanto bs for gods sake.

I am not complaining Arrowwind. And what I have said is not bull ****.

But I am trying to make the point that WE ALL are interwoven. We are ALL a melding of good and evil . . . .every damn one of us . . . no different . . we are all human with all that goes with it.

We have to stop viewing one group of humans’ evil while setting ourselves apart as the benevolent good guys.

We cannot ‘thumb our noses’ at those we view as unworthy while still demanding all they provide and coveting their ‘assets’.

We cannot move forward as One World One People until we ALL start acting as One united force.

Where ‘they’ fail we pick up the ball . . . . where we fail ‘they’ pick up the ball.

Compliment not destroy one another.

[onawah]

It also seems worth noting that the source of the technology we have today can more likely be traced to benevolent ET family, rather than TPTB.
Closely examining and questioning issues like this is precisely what Avalon is all about.

[Arrowwind]

Are they keeping the knowledge from us?

absolutley. The are eliminating the right and freedom for farmers to collect their own seed. This will lead to a loss of knowledge and experience. They are steeling seed from nations and modifying it. They are forcing people to purchase seed they dont want and that they believe to be dangerous to their health and environment. They have distroyed countless farms in the USA and in other countries.



We have enough of the knowledge that we can make informed decisions and take care of ourselves, family and community.


maybe for some of us on this forums and similar forums but for the masses this is absolutley not true.

.


I’m very happy that ‘they’ are preserving humanity as they see it because at least they are doing something. The rest of humanity (99% ?) sit around and basically bemoan the fact the governments aren’t giving us enough hand outs.
Millions of people around the world are working hard within the monsanto dictates. Many of them are loosing. They have economically forced themselves into sustainable areas and ruined lands, aquafirs, and seed. They have poisoned countless with herbicides and pesticides




Yes GMO food definitely has problems . . . . but where we are at this time, technology wise, at least gmo food is feeding a large majority of population. The flip side is with out this less than perfect food millions would be starving and hundreds of million would be dead by now, with millions more to follow. They are working through the imperfections everyday and our bodies will adjust.

Yes I agree. Your first sentence is correct. the rest is delusion. Millions would not be starving if farmers were left to grow sustainable crops on sustainable lands instead of running them off their lands through corrupted science. Our bodies are not adjusting. we are more chronically ill as each decade goes by.



Would it be wonderful to have the perfect food and the ability to farm it now YES! . . . but we do not and 'they' do not . . . . but it is being done and we will be there in the next 50 years or so.
more delsuion. We have always had the perfect food and plenty of it. I saw no one starving in the USA pre monsanto save for corrupt economics... not corrupt farmers... a breif time during the dust bowel... If farmers and the housewifes in the applician mountians knew really how to garden well there would be no hungry children there.



Yes we are consuming many natural resources globally. But without this consumption we would not be able to develop our science and technology to take us in to the future. We are communicating now via global internet and computers. Without the massive consumption of earth’s natural resources that have given us the science advancements and technology we would still be using smoke signals.

Youv'e got to be kidding. There were no computers in Rudolph Steiner's day. Only books. All the great organic folks were precomputer... organics has been progressing steadily since the 50's. Granted it can move faster today but the repression upon us is growing faster too, forced and funded by the likes of Monsanto


The bigger picture is or flip side I see (now) is this consumption and seemingly destruction is leading us to greater technology (fertilized by their more complete knowledge) that will actually repair and heal our planet and literally enable us to take our place within our solar system and beyond.
There science is not what is going to save us, only destroy us. What they have was never required to grow a decent crop. Only the sciences of organics and permicuture will do that. The rest is hogwash. They are destroying acre after acre after acre. We s hould not look to them to save us from them. We should look to us who understand the nature of the earth. Their greed is our downfall, not our endeavors to live without them.


We dream of a planet that is sustainable and abundant for all of humanity and this is where they are leading us. Through greater advancement of science and technology and their more complete knowledge.
dream on sweet sister. .. i know you mean well. Is this before or after they distroy all the seed and land?



Look where we have come from ‘their’ work and knowledge. We have come from horse and buggy to space travel in a very short amount of time. yep. and nuclear bombs, and toxic oceans, and a ceasless war machine, and drugged children, and cancer exploding, an biological warfare, and depleted uranium bombs, and the clamping down on human rights, and the poisoning of our waterways throught he use of pharmaceuticals, the toxins in our food, the 15 drug perscriptons that over 50 percent of our elders take, the oh so many lies in medicine, the destruction of rain forests around the world, and on and on and on. Will their science save us? I sincerely doubt it. Only in our delusions under the controls of the brainwashing of the masses. We could develop good science without all of this.
.... but ya, its all good in the end eh?

Again I ask what WE have done for the planet and humanity?
many are doing great works.. better look again


I have come to at least respect their effort and vision. They are working for the future global humanity as a whole. I am working hard to understand their lead and what and why they are doing what they are doing . . . . I am listening as hard as I can to the information they are giving us. I will use this information to adapt and grow and take care of myself, family, friends and community.
I hope your family appreciates the new world governemnt that monsanto wants for us...


Again I ask point blank . . . .what has the rest of us done besides bitch and moan? We are all imperfect . . . all of us . . . ‘them’ included . . . .we are equal straight across the board. They are preserving humanity on a global future scale with their greater knowledge . . . what are we doing on even a tiny scale with the knowledge we have? I work my knowledge everyday on my land, in my medicine, in my distribution of food, in my teaching, in my learning, in my community support... what makes you think here that people are doing nothing?


And there are others . . . we have to be each others “iron that sharpens the others iron”. We have to be each others Muse. But it HAS to be from a solid well honed foundation and not based on victimization, hatred, fear, apathy and stupidity.

I agree, yet it is always wise to call a spade a spade for what it is for if you dont recognize that which would damage you you may get run over by it. Call it by its name and then go on with your work. These are the teachings of Ghandi and King and so many other lovers of peace and equality... and when necessary rise up in mass and rebel.

[ThePythonicCow]

Are they keeping the knowledge from us?
Yes, they are keeping knowledge from us. Our history, genetics, physics, energy, nutrition, health, ... What really happened in such conspiracy events as the JFK assassination and 9/11. What's going on with chemtrails. What travels we have done in space. On and on and on and on ... I have no doubt that massive amounts of information, right down to the major understandings, are withheld from us, and that immense energy is spent on lies, murders, extortions, genocides, propaganda, bribes, ... large and small, sometimes very large ... keeping truth from us.


They feed it to us bits at a time and sometimes in quantities so large we confuse the hell out of it . . . religions are an example.
Yes, we are confused as all heck. That doesn't mean that the confusion is all our fault, nor that they are doing their best against the odds to dispel that confusion. Far, far from it.


We have enough of the knowledge that we can make informed decisions and take care of ourselves, family and community.
No we don't. The people drinking fluoride contaminated water and taking statin pills, the farmers in India who committed suicide after being conned into adopting Monsanto's failed products and methods (to name three examples of a gazillion possible) do (did) not have enough such knowledge.


This is done everyday right here on this forum. Everyone adds the bits of knowledge they are ‘remembering’ and understand and we all debate, argue, pontificate and struggle . . . but we are finally hearing it and adapting.
That's why I'm here ... you, me and a few thousand others. What about the other 7 billion people? Even on this forum, amongst well intended members, sifting through the lies, disinformation, confusion, and propaganda is an ongoing challenge.


I’m very happy that ‘they’ are preserving humanity as they see it because at least they are doing something. The rest of humanity (99% ?) sit around and basically bemoan the fact the governments aren’t giving us enough hand outs.
The inactivity of billions does not justify the evil of thousands.


What are WE doing to literally preserve humanity? What?
Well, I'm helping keeping this forum running, and it sounds like you're up to your usual three days of hard work for every one day the sun rises :).


Abuses?

What about the benevolent?
It's an ill wind that blows no good.


Yes GMO food definitely has problems . . . . but where we are at this time, technology wise, at least gmo food is feeding a large majority of population. The flip side is with out this less than perfect food millions would be starving and hundreds of million would be dead by now, with millions more to follow. They are working through the imperfections everyday and our bodies will adjust.
Yes, they are feeding us ... but with slow poisons. That beats fast starvation, and obviously we can't just immediately burn all our Monsanto seeds and all our crops and food stocks that were seeded, weeded or fertilized with Monsanto products, before we provide healthier alternatives. Most of us would starve before we got healthy; that doesn't work.



See what I mean?
no :)

...


I have come to at least respect their effort and vision. They are working for the future global humanity as a whole.
Is this the global humanity of a half million obedient slave workers?

They have not earned respect in my book; quite the contrary.

[ThePythonicCow]

Are they keeping the knowledge from us?

absolutley. The are eliminating the right and freedom for farmers to collect their own seed. This will lead to a loss of knowledge and experience. They are steeling seed from nations and modifying it. They are forcing people to purchase seed they dont want and that they believe to be dangerous to their health and environment. They have distroyed countless farms in the USA and in other countries.
Well said, Arrowwind, your entire reply.

I did not notice your reply until after I posted mine.

My first instinct was to apologize for stealing your wind.

But then I realized it was a good thing I posted before reading your reply, as your reply was so fine that I might have been reluctant to post mine had I read your's first.

[onawah]

It seems very clear to me, at least, that much of the the apathy and do-nothing attitude that is prevalent among the masses is due to all the poisons in the air, soil, water, food, etc. that TPTB have gone to such great lengths to corrupt.
Even with clean water, good food and medicines and a relatively safe place to live, I am often subject to the same feelings.
And to the pervasive feeling that I'm sure almost everyone has at some level that something is very wrong with the way things have been going on the planet for quite some time now.
When you know something is wrong, but you have no idea what the source of the problems are or how to fix them, it can lead to much worse conditions than simply apathy.
I'm actually very impressed with the ability of the human race to keep from going totally bonkers, given what we have been subjected to over the centuries, especially the last one.

[panopticon]

This discussion is so complex that examining it from the macro perspective can ignore the details.

I'm just going to write about GMO seeds in this post as they are the 'new green revolution' that is often lauded as part of a solution to global food sustainability (yeah Bill Gates says they are, so they must be -- right?).

There are a number of advantages in the use of GMO seeds and proponents of this technology often argue that it is no different to hybridisation practices that humans have been doing for millennia. It is my position that there are differences though. While the creation of a crop through selective breeding has produced valuable crops (take corn for example which has been developed over millennia to the varieties available today) the altering of genome to produce disease resistant, drought resistant and/or pesticide resistant varieties also has an effect on bio-diversity and non-targeted species not to mention the control of this technology also produces imbalances within the social context of their introduction (particularly in the so-called "developing regions").

Using corn as an example, it has been shown that despite the Mexican banning of BT Corn it has entered the native corn population there. This has occurred due to a combination of lax US and Mexican regulatory requirements. Corn in the US is mixed (GM and non-GM) following harvest and Mexico does not require that imported corn for consumption (eg animal) be purely non-GM. As a direct result of this the genetic characteristics of GM corn have been found in remote village corn crops (article (http://www.worldwatch.org/node/525)). This lowers species diversity as it favours the GM corn via various environmental processes (eg cross pollination, stress factors).

The risk to beneficial soil micro-organisms is also a concern that has been mentioned by various opponents to GM. There is a small amount of evidence that soil microbes can be contaminated via a process known as 'horizontal gene transfer' however the extent to which this occurs is said to be "limited". Even if it is a limited process outside the laboratory, the fact that around every plant there are lots of microbes would indicate that it does not happen infrequently. Essentially the argument comes down to the old "for the greater good" bollocks.



Kaare Nielsen, microbial geneticist at Norway's University of Tromsø, is one of the few scientists to find examples of horizontal gene transfer. “There are actually very few studies and most of the ones conducted have been on first-generation plants,” Nielsen explains. Given that plant DNA can last in soil for over two years, Nielsen does not believe the possibility can be dismissed and argues that long-term studies are necessary. Work continues in this area in Europe.

"Do we know all of the right questions we should be asking?" she wonders, adding, "Genes are complicated and can interact." For these reasons, identifying factors that regulate weed and pest populations and determining how microbial community changes affect larger ecosystems are important areas of research.
Source (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0000008).

The risk of transgene transfer is also associated with weeds, not to mention the evolution of varieties resistant to various chemical and biological agents used in their control. This is a smaller issue (evolution of resistant species has been occurring as a natural process since life began) but does point to the complexity of GM crop introduction.

There are a large number of ways in which transgenes become dominant. From simple evolution (survival of the fittest) through to selective planting of resistant varieties and marketing propaganda. If we look at the social ramifications of BT Cotton's introduction to India it is easy to see that it is steeped in Money, Control and Power (MCP). The recent banning of Maharashtra Hybrid Seeds Company (Mahyco), a partner of Monsanto, and their BT Cotton seed in the Indian state of Maharashtra brings to light the way in which control is exerted by corporations and government on farmers leading to crop failure, debt and ultimately suicide. There are no winners in this farming population.

The dangers of 'Pharming' (the production of medication via a crop) is also relevant to this discussion. Gene flow in a major concern here as it has the potential to contaminate major food crops (corn and soy bean). There are many much touted advantages to this process such as there would no longer be a problem in providing supported vaccines to the population, they would just be part of the food chain...



“The gene flow risk that keeps me awake at night is the possibility of hybridization between crops engineered to manufacture poisons and related crops intended for human consumption,” says plant geneticist Norman Ellstrand. Indeed, this application of GM crops seeks to turn corn into cost-effective pharmaceutical factories and may bear the mark of unacceptable risk. It is currently the subject of intense debate. An open-pollinated crop, corn is known for its promiscuity—making it more prone to gene flow risks than other crops. Genetic contamination takes on a whole new meaning when the escapable trait could produce proteins to treat diabetes or a hepatitis B vaccine.
Source (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0000008).

I could talk more about this but I really don't see a guiding hand assisting like a grandfatherly figure the actions of the multi-nationals. Only the constant struggle over MCP that is like a boa constrictor squeezing the life out of the bio-sphere.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Some Sources:
Rogue Corn On the Loose: Risking Corn, Risking Culture (http://www.worldwatch.org/node/525)
Pharming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharming_(genetics))
GM maize could produce hepatitis B vaccine (http://www.scidev.net/en/news/gm-maize-could-produce-hepatitis-b-vaccine.html)
Do bacteria absorb plant genes? (http://www.gmo-safety.eu/basic-info/354.bacteria-absorb-plant-genes.html)
Maharashtra bans Bt cotton seeds (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-08-09/india/33118430_1_cotton-seeds-bt-cotton-cotton-growing-states)
Sorry Monsanto: Govt Admits GM Bt Cotton Crops Fail 40% (http://www.nationofchange.org/sorry-monsanto-govt-admits-gm-bt-cotton-crops-fail-40-1354182166)
Genetically Modified Corn— Environmental Benefits and Risks (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0000008)

Update:

Just as a final bit of information for those who make it this far.
Here are two reports on the fact that there is no evidence what so ever of yield increase from GM corn or Soy bean:
http://www.agassessment.org/
http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_agriculture/our-failing-food-system/genetic-engineering/failure-to-yield.html

[panopticon]

It seems very clear to me, at least, that much of the the apathy and do-nothing attitude that is prevalent among the masses is due to all the poisons in the air, soil, water, food, etc. that TPTB have gone to such great lengths to corrupt.
Even with clean water, good food and medicines and a relatively safe place to live, I am often subject to the same feelings.
And to the pervasive feeling that I'm sure almost everyone has at some level that something is very wrong with the way things have been going on the planet for quite some time now.
When you know something is wrong, but you have no idea what the source of the problems are or how to fix them, it can lead to much worse conditions than simply apathy.
I'm actually very impressed with the ability of the human race to keep from going totally bonkers, given what we have been subjected to over the centuries, especially the last one.

Controlled (for example via debt, media, education centred on producing "good" employees, political process that dis-empower the individual) distracted and medicated people do not react, they are busy eeking out a livelihood trying to just get by.
I don't see anything impressive about it.

What is impressive is that some recognise it and try to do something about it.
From growing a veggie patch to farmer co-ops, from workers taking control of factories to multi-national corporations being told to buggar off, people are fighting for their rights.
These control mechanisms have been here for a very long time...
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Cjay]

Rule #1 – NO greedy bastards or “vulture capitalists” will be welcome to join us. The environmental/humanitarian mission is far too important to allow it to be derailed by greed.

But you will need and use the 'greedy vulture capitalist' millions to get your project up and running and for it to succeed.


I don't think so. I am surrounded by benevolent people with the passion and determination to make these projects succeed. I hope to attract other like minded folk who want to help in constructive ways so we can do more, faster.


Greedy vulture capitalist? Have you looked at the foundational charter members of IBI? How many millions do you think these Capitalists will make selling you/us the technology and product to make Biochar? They HAVE to make billions to implement Biochar on a global scale.

They don't own all of the technology.



I am not trying to hide the knowledge of Monsanto's involvement in the International Biochar Initiative

And yet you changed your post where you acknowledged Monsanto and subsidiaries are involved. You are simply not aware (or don’t want to be aware) how deeply they are involved.

I changed my post because I wanted you to clarify who you were talking about.



I am a member of International Biochar Initiative so I can access the research compiled from all over the world

What do you think your membership fees went to support?

The membership fee is a small price to pay for keeping an eye on what others are doing... their successes and failures and to observe their attempts at controlling the biochar industry.



I am not, have never been and never will be associated with Monsanto in any way. As far as I know, everyone I am associated with despises Monsanto.


By becoming a member of IBI and buying their technology and by supporting and implementing it and the product required to make Biochar on a massive scale and by adopting their philosophy you are solidly associated with Monsanto.

I found out about Monsanto's involvement in IBI two days after becoming a member of IBI. I am not buying their technology. I am not under their spell or control. I have looked inside their box and I am thinking outside it.

I use Microsoft products. Does that mean I am solidly associated with Eugenicists because Bill Gates' father was one?


Can you not see the disconnect here and the extreme internal conflict based on your/our hatred and unawareness and ignorance of what ‘they’ are truly doing?

Extreme internal conflict? Do you think it would be better to ignore them and do nothing?


You (Cjay) do not understand the ultimate reason why Monsanto /controllers are developing Biochar technology, along with GMO food and HARP (and other) And I only have a very good idea, at best, based from my new ideology and understanding . . . we have to read between the lines and project way into the future.

You presume to know what I don't understand. If you know more, why not share what you know?

[blufire]

I think I am done here. . . . I think i am done with the forum all togther.

[Arrowwind]

Cjay, just how do you think that they could possibly control the biochar industry? What is the strategy?
They certainly didn't stop me

nor did they stop this guy

dqkWYM7rYpU

or this guy

RXMUmby8PpU

Ive seen larger systems that go from farm to farm and make it on site

[onawah]

I have no issues with what you've stated here, Panopticon.
I was just speaking in general terms about the human race, but when you break it down, certainly there are different groups who are dealing with the situation in different ways, according to where they are in their evolution, and there are many different levels of evolution manifesting on the planet now.



It seems very clear to me, at least, that much of the the apathy and do-nothing attitude that is prevalent among the masses is due to all the poisons in the air, soil, water, food, etc. that TPTB have gone to such great lengths to corrupt.
Even with clean water, good food and medicines and a relatively safe place to live, I am often subject to the same feelings.
And to the pervasive feeling that I'm sure almost everyone has at some level that something is very wrong with the way things have been going on the planet for quite some time now.
When you know something is wrong, but you have no idea what the source of the problems are or how to fix them, it can lead to much worse conditions than simply apathy.
I'm actually very impressed with the ability of the human race to keep from going totally bonkers, given what we have been subjected to over the centuries, especially the last one.

Controlled (for example via debt, media, education centred on producing "good" employees, political process that dis-empower the individual) distracted and medicated people do not react, they are busy eeking out a livelihood trying to just get by.
I don't see anything impressive about it.

What is impressive is that some recognise it and try to do something about it.
From growing a veggie patch to farmer co-ops, from workers taking control of factories to multi-national corporations being told to buggar off, people are fighting for their rights.
These control mechanisms have been here for a very long time...
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Arrowwind]

while we're on the Monsanto topic here is an important petition to sign

Subject: Stop the Monsanto Riders


So-called 'Monsanto riders,' quietly slipped into the multi-billion dollar FY 2013 Agricultural Appropriations bill, would require - not just allow, but require - the Secretary of Agriculture to grant a t...emporary permit for the planting or cultivation of a genetically engineered crop, even if a federal court has ordered the planting be halted until an Environmental Impact Statement is completed. All the farmer or the biotech producer has to do is ask. This can potentially end organic farming as we know it as well, by ruining organic natural seed.

That's why I signed a petition to The United States House of Representatives, The United States Senate, and President Barack Obama, which says:

"Stop the Monsanto riders. Unless a citizen's army of farmers and consumers can stop them, Congress is likely to ram these dangerous riders through any day now."

Will you sign this petition? Click here:

http://signon.org/sign/stop-the-monsanto-rider?source=s.em.cp&r_by=5214577 (http://signon.org/sign/stop-the-monsanto-rider?source=s.em.cp&r_by=5214577)

[Cjay]

Cjay, just how do you think that they could possibly control the biochar industry? What is the strategy?

Like they always do, Arrowwind... inch by inch, drop by drop. For instance, they are developing standards to regulate the biochar industry. Initially, the standards seem reasonable and environmentally considerate. For the time being, the standards are guidelines - not mandatory. But inch by inch, drop by drop, they will become more prescriptive over time - just watch for legislation telling us what we can and can't do.

[onawah]

Done! I'm a great believer in signing petitions.

Sign here:
http://signon.org/sign/stop-the-monsanto-rider?source=s.em.cp&r_by=5214577

[Cjay]

Here's an article about Ray Thompson's work repairing bare, scalded clay-pans that have lost about 30 cm (1 foot) of topsoil with an ancient technique called 'water-ponding'.


Imagine baked earth, bare of any grass or shrub, many centimetres lower than the surrounding soil. Meet the ugly environmental scar that is the Australian clay-pan.

Clay-pans are a sadly common sight in the Australian bush. They're a bald reminder of the cumulative disastrous impact of rabbits, over-stocking, erosion and droughts over many years.

And they have become an obsession for Ray Thompson, a catchment officer with the Central West Catchment Management Authority, based in Nyngan in Western NSW.

Ray has been conducting his own personal war against claypans since the 1980's; first with the NSW Department of Soil Conservation, through an ever-changing list of NSW government departments and now through the Central West Catchment Management Authority.

Over those years, he has refined a practice call 'water-ponding'; an environmental intervention that has been around for thousands of years which he says now produces extraordinary result in the Australian bush.

"We've worked out the best height for our banks, to make sure we maximise the native grasses and saltbush regeneration.

"We survey the block of land to work out the natural fall, and then we design a series of banks which form circles or crescents and those hillocks stop the water from running off the bare surface.

"The water sits on the claypan, breaks down that hard shell and allows seed to germinate in the soils."
Full story: http://www.abc.net.au/rural/content/2012/s3594447.htm

More information:
Marra Creek Waterponding Program - rehabilitating and restoring scalded rangelands (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/9367217/Marra-Creek-Waterponding-Program---rehabilitating-and-restoring)

I would like to combine this technique with Hugelkultur.

[Dennis Leahy]

I am conflicted on whether or not to remain on this thread.

I do not want to derail or seem negative or combative against what you (Cjay) are doing. I agree and believe 200% that these projects have got to begin and flourish in order for us to heal our planet.

BUT

I feel very strongly that in order for us to be successful we have got to reexamine how to move forward and be very careful in the foundation we build from.

I have come to believe that Monsanto and subsidiaries and more importantly the ‘Controllers” are addressing humanity’s best interests and more specifically the preservation of humanity. ...Can I recommend a thread split? It is related, if Blufire's point is correct, and unrelated and a pebble in Cjay's sandal if not. I'm fascinated by Blufire's perspective on this - and yet I share Cjay's. I would be more than astounded to find out why Monsanto should not be considered as the posterchild of corporate greed and are not really strategically monopolizing the seed genome for nefarious purposes. I read that as soon as the US Supreme Court ruled that lifeforms could be patented, Monsanto sent a contingent into one of the world's most diverse seedbanks to take a few of each - and patent them. I also saw - in several documentaries - how Monsanto's lawyers were more like Mafia mobsters as they went after farmers whose fields had been contaminated by GMO pollen. In addition, Monsanto has swallowed many other seed companies, reducing the biodiversity of seeds offered - in a greed-based, monopolistic thrust for complete control of seeds.

Again, I'll hear Blufire out on her perspective, and will do my very best to (at least temporarily) set aside my opinions to see if they are unfounded. I also recognize that there is a huge difference between breaking down emotional barriers to working with corporations and governments that have the resources to make the project fly instead of crawl, and jumping into bed with anyone and everyone that might help (even though it appears they will probably sabotage at best and, at worst, disembowel the vision of the project as it clashes with their corporate long-term agenda.)

Even if Cjay and a handful of others have a level and degree of integrity that is indomitable, many others within the working groups will not have that evolved integrity, and the door is wide open for the greedy corporation to subvert and undermine the project's vision - maybe even turn it into a giant "greenwashing" campaign as they metastisize their agenda.

Sorry this is so long-winded, but I'd love to see this subtopic broken off and examined on its own. Of course, mods, please check with Cjay and blufire before doing anything, as my opinion may be off-base.

Dennis

[778 neighbour of some guy]

Cjay, just how do you think that they could possibly control the biochar industry? What is the strategy?
They certainly didn't stop me

nor did they stop this guy

dqkWYM7rYpU

or this guy

RXMUmby8PpU

Ive seen larger systems that go from farm to farm and make it on site

Thanks Arrow, and this is what it is all about imo, one could say the thread drifted of topic a bit by adressing perceived motives of whoever big agro might be or represent.

I read this thread from a different perspective, that perpective being the individual benefits of named systems, and how we can get the attention of "the wife of Joe Sixpack", and perhaps Joe himself, even Joe has noticed by now, his hard earned cash buys him less, what would be more fun for Joe then to sit his @ss down in his yard, bragging about how "frigging humongous" his tomatoes are while having a beer with his pals and wifes while lighting the barbeque, this is how trends are started, Joe has some and now i want some too, its how we are being played, now lets play back the same way only from a different perspective.

1. Biochar, great and it works and its been around for a while, lets build on it.

2. Compost tea, agian, it works, lets implement it.

3. Magnetic water, seems to work too, has to be promoted.

4. Lets add the hugelkultur to this, works like a charm too.

Why not keep the focus on those four points, short story from me, this summer i went to one of those big @ss gardencentres to check out some small pumps so i could build an indoor hanging bottle garden( have no garden or balcony), and let me tell you, everything in those gardencentres is packed with the latest trends in growing whatever in your yard or on your balcony and the place was packed with people, this is VERY big business, also, there was a whole section dedicated to small fruit trees, veggies and seeds( dont care if they are GMO at this point, point is they are aware groing stuff yourself is popular and every self respecting housewife should have at least some berries growing in a pot on a nice miniature tree), and this stuff gets sold by the cartload.

What i said above is a trend, now what if this trend could actually spark their imagination by seeing a REAL crop, growing out of control in their back yards that they can actually eat from big time/pig time when the right conditions are in place and for cheap??? I bet thats going to be a trend since everybody wants to get bigger and better then their neighbour, this could be very usefull competition with some serious do no harm benefits, i think thats a better way to take this discussion and for that reason people should be aware of the smaller scale things, because that gives them back control instantly, and they wont even know it in the beginning, that is untill they start saving on grocery money and they see what they have, the means are already stated in the thread here, so how do we get it to them??

Suggestions??

[Bo Atkinson]

I agree Dennis, or perhaps have 10 self-honorable topics... I've been 'into' all these topics my whole life.

Hats off to Cjay for drawing out so many posts. Many thanks to all for focusing great energy.

I'm not sure what to focus on ^___^

Blufire does raise an important area to study, i think. Not that i agree with her deductions, but rather that one has to keep their eye on the 'competition'. And many thanks to all who provide polite and contrasting references. The longer ranging picture of planetary and galactic history may well be worth deeper studies-- Which is how i might agree with hearing out the adversaries. At least a dozen respected commentators have provided a lot of background on the ancient struggle for steering destiny..... Too much to scan here, but only to say there is a lot of interesting commentary and evidence to sort through. I got into this subject matter through the term "fallen angles".... I say, let us promote many discussions about this competition for destiny.

As to the bio char, i think this is more a question of where one practices agriculture and which resources are available. Here in Maine, gardens are buried with green weed growth to the point of overwhelm. This takes up all ones gardening time, but for the fastidious gardener, (only). Fact is most gardeners here prefer the fastidious look. So, good, make compost or char if one is disciplined or monied. I work cheap and have some inventions to speed up weeding/composting in small picturesque gardens. Advanced tech is not needed, the art can be very decentralized and even entertaining.

In 1971, my wife and i started with a 1960s junk yard where car frames were pulled out for sale to smelters... We had plenty of crank case oil char, heh, heh. We went with Rudolf Steiner's Agriculture book for compost advise and i still like it best. Steiner actually discouraged raw compost ingredients close to crop roots... However, i had tons of 'brush' from weed-shrubs and diseased saplings-- So, indeed, these were pushed into piles with dirt-- Taking 10 years to break down, depending on available nitrogen-- I found freely delivered chicken poop, perhaps 20 plus cubic meters, after compacting, many truck loads!-- As the new laws prohibited the chicken plantations from dumping near to streams... All such opportunities change with time....

Today i am perfecting my thermally insulated and charcoal-boosted compost reactor.... I hate to say it, but i'm finding that poop is really essential and getting it needs more inventions. (Inventions which pay little besides exercise and life fully lived). I am planning to update my webpage on that. But our weather is warm this December, so priorities are to work outdoors during daylight.

As to garden styling, that is multi-facetted subject. I notice that we have many suburban-urban preferences on this forum. Only some of us are die hard, back to the land tolerant folk. Unafraid to be mocked for Woodstock or whatnot. Unafraid to challenge materialism and the artifice.

100 clicks of thanks ~wav

[ThePythonicCow]

I think I am done here. . . . I think i am done with the forum all togther.
I hope you stay - I really do.


Can I recommend a thread split?
My usual motivations for splitting threads are based on different concerns from what I observed above.

What I observed above was a clear and cogent debate, not (that I noticed) causing undo stress on this thread. I realize I was a participant in the debate, which definitely increases the risk that I missed something here.

I tend to split threads when I am finding the dissensions to be distracting, perhaps due to confusions or emotional undercurrents that are not clearly reflected in the actual words posted. I keep links to a few pages listing rhetorical fallacies for such times (such as here (http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/rhetological-fallacies/) or here (http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/fallacies/fallacies_unique.htm)). I almost never actually mention such lists on the forum, but I do find such lists comforting at such times.

But I felt no urge to consult such lists above.

Unfortunately (for blufire), blufire was quite by herself in taking the position she took, but in my view she took it with honorable clarity.

The debate, in any event, seems over now, as blufire grew weary of defending a lonely position.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the essence of this debate was similar to what might happen with debates of so many other large groups (nations, corporations, religions, races, ...) of people. I'll wager that I could easily find groups of people, whole towns even, in Iraq or Afghanistan or numerous other countries who would spit on me as an American. Given what has been done at the command of America's leaders, by men in American uniforms, that spit would arrive with potent and well deserved energy. I can only pray it would be spit, not lead.

But usually it is the institution, as warped and misdirected by a few bastards in power, that is the source of such evil, not the ordinary worker, citizen or foot soldier (even though ordinary people, or heartless drones controlled by them, are at the point of the spear.)

blufire may well know ordinary people who work for Monsanto, whereas I only know Monsanto as an evil corporation.

[Bo Atkinson]

One little tip, if i may.... I actually ignored gardening for many years trying to make a living as a creative slave....

By ignoring the garden, weeds took over, from time to time...

Nowadays, i'm focusing more closely on garden production, as paying work is much harder to get.

My favorite way to weed is simply to use a flat shovel (square front edge) to shave off weeds with root mass... Then flip like a burger... Getting that amount of "compost material" placed inside of a growing bed, does not adversely affect the crops. Just don't break roots of the crops. Don't add externally sourced material at that point. Also, the type of soil and the amount of ground water affects weeding choices-- We have nearly-claylike soil with considerable levels of rain.

It is simultaneously a way to raise the growing bed elevation and to smother out weeds near to the crop plants.

I'd put up Youtubes, but this needs making a shoulder harness for my camera. Plus relearning Youtube procedures. I wasted so much time at that in the beta phase of Youtube, (last century when tech was primitive;)

[panopticon]

Here's an article about Ray Thompson's work repairing bare, scalded clay-pans that have lost about 30 cm (1 foot) of topsoil with an ancient technique called 'water-ponding'.


G'day Cjay,

Thanks for bringing up this project as I've been meaning to look into it for ages and never got around to it.
The doc link was excellent (I got a few other resources to have a gitsy at while I was at it) and this project really shows best practices and the way a successful program is run.


First they identified a problem, worked out the cause and came to a solution.
The solution was introduced slowly, results recorded, adjustments made and then it was carefully trialled until a suitable/optimal outcome was achieved.
The community was engaged throughout this process and when verifiable results were achieved the community and Government adopted it.
They retained key personnel so as to keep the knowledge base intact and trained contractors so they knew what they were supposed to do.

Such a simple process that is almost fool proof.

As I've said heaps of times farmers are pragmatists and will adopt things that have been shown to work.
The increased ground cover increases the lands livestock handling capacity while also rehabilitating the area allowing for increased bio-diversity of flora and fauna.
Most farmers, at least in Australia, are all about leaving the land better than they found it.
This project just makes that so much easier.

To get an idea of the scale of how this is done here's an aerial photo from 1989 I came across:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=19527&d=1354619793

The horseshoe shape of the bank design is great and the use of the wet saturation/dry cracking cycle combination to break the clay pan brilliant. Once the pan is broken, add seeds and bobs me uncle fanny's me aunt, watch the wonder of nature do its thing.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[panopticon]

G'day Cjay,

I found a couple of interesting short videos on mobile biochar plants designed and being used by the the NSW/Victorian Governments. They are capable of processing full logs and using the biochar on-site.

StvVJBOMjuY

zQqUJLIaAN4
Hope this is useful.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Cjay]

Peru and Kenya ban GMOs

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Back in March I mentioned that Peru legislated a ban on GMO foods. I thought I’d follow up by letting you know that this legislation has now come into force:


A 10-year ban on genetically modified foods in Peru came into effect this week, state news agency Andina reported.
Peru’s executive has approved the regulations for the law that prohibits the importation, production and use of GMO foods in the country.
Violating the law can result in a maximum fine of 10,000 UIT tax units, which is about 36.5 million soles ($14 million). The goods can also be seized and destroyed, according to the norms.
The law, which was approved by President Ollanta Humala last year, is aimed at preserving Peru’s biodiversity and supporting local farmers, Environment Minister Manuel Pulgar Vidal said.


And in another blow to the biotech monopolisers, Kenya has also just banned the importation of GMOs into their African nation:
Full article: http://permaculturenews.org/2012/12/03/peru-and-kenya-ban-gmos/#more-8820

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Peru has said "no" to genetically modified foods — a 10-year ban on GMO foods takes effect this week. Peru's ban on GMO foods prohibits the import, production and use of genetically modified foods. The law is aimed at safeguarding the country's agricultural diversity and preventing cross-pollination with non-GMO crops. It will also help protect Peruvian exports of organic products.

Peru isn't the first country to ban GMO foods or place restrictions on their use. Earlier this year, Russia suspended imports of Monsanto's GMO corn after a French study linked the corn to cancer; France also has a temporary ban on the corn. Ireland has banned the growing of GMO crops since 2009. Japan and Egypt also ban the cultivation of GMO crops. In 2010, Switzerland extended a moratorium on genetically modified animals and plants, banning GMOs until 2013.

Even countries that don't ban GMO crops may place restrictions on them. Germany requires farmers growing GMO crops to maintain a minimum distance from conventional farms and holds them liable for damages if conventional crops are contaminated via cross-pollination. A German court upheld the restrictions, turning down a complaint that claimed the regulations unfairly damaged farmers.

In some places where GMOs are permitted, labeling is required, enabling consumers to decide if they wish to purchase foods containing GMOs. In 1998, the European Union began requiring labels for food products with more than 0.9 percent of ingredients from genetically modified processes. Other countries, including Japan, Australia, New Zealand, China, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, India, Chile and South Africa, require labeling for foods containing GMOs.

The U.S., however, has no such requirements.
Full article: Peru joins list of countries banning GMOs (http://current.com/groups/news-blog/93975745_peru-bans-genetically-modified-foods-as-us-lags.htm)


Who Benefits from GM Crops – An Industry Built On Myths

http://www.permaculturenews.org/files/who-benefits-11.pdf
Source: http://www.permaculturenews.org/files/who-benefits-11.pdf

[Cjay]

panopticon, thanks for posting videos of the mobile pyrolysis system (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52523-ANNOUNCEMENT-Huge-Scale-Environmental-and-Humanitarian-Projects-to-Repair-The-Earth&p=593088&viewfull=1#post593088)). Mobile is great, processing whole logs is great. It appears to be a good low-tech concept.

Unfortunately, all the smoke which contains volatile oils and syngas (mostly hydrogen) is burned in a five-stage after-burner and all of the energy is lost as heat, thus wasting about 50% of the biomass resource.

[Cjay]

Aquaponics is a great concept for producing a lot of food in a relatively small area.

1 MILLION pounds of Food on 3 acres. 1 pump,10000 fish, 500 yards of compost ** Aquaponics **

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[panopticon]

panopticon, thanks for posting videos of the mobile pyrolysis system (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52523-ANNOUNCEMENT-Huge-Scale-Environmental-and-Humanitarian-Projects-to-Repair-The-Earth&p=593088&viewfull=1#post593088)). Mobile is great, processing whole logs is great. It appears to be a good low-tech concept.

Unfortunately, all the smoke which contains volatile oils and syngas (mostly hydrogen) is burned in a five-stage after-burner and all of the energy is lost as heat, thus wasting about 50% of the biomass resource.

G'day Cjay,

You are completely correct, my purpose in posting this was to point out that extensive research is being undertaken and solutions found that may be suitable in circumstances where it is not viable to transport to/from a central processing facility. Also the mobile plants may be a cheaper option for a municipality to adopt as opposed to the high cost of establishing a low loss processing plant. It's all about land rehabilitation and if processing can be done on-site, as opposed to being piled and burnt as waste, I reckon it's not a bad option. "Different situations demand different responses" and all that jazz.

BTW, I came across a Government report titled 'Biochar: implications for agricultural productivity' from the Department for Ag, Fisheries and Forestry. Bit of a dry read, but informative.

http://adl.brs.gov.au/data/warehouse/biochar9abcm001/biochar9abcm00101/TR.2011.06_Biochar_v1.0.0.pdf
Source (http://adl.brs.gov.au/data/warehouse/biochar9abcm001/biochar9abcm00101/TR.2011.06_Biochar_v1.0.0.pdf).
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Dennis Leahy]

I wonder if the biochar process and Envirolene manufacturing technologies could be married. Envirolene is a new concept in liquid fuel, made from biomass. It is a blend of alcohols. Part of the idea is to decentralize liquid fuel production, and each area could have its own plant making liquid fuel. Until "free energy" is released, I believe there will still be a need for liquid fuels. This might be a tangent to this thread, or there may be a tie-in.

Jay Toups, the creative energy behind the Envirolene concept, is very bright very approachable, and has a broad perspective. (I was just recently introduced to him.) Info here: Envirolene (http://www.biorootenergy.com/about-envirolene/)

Besides whatever local hydrocarbon "trash" is available, I believe that including locally-produced hemp will always have some biomass leftover after all the incredible goodies (fibers, oils, juice, etc.) have been extracted from the cannabis/hemp.

Take a glance, and see if this technology has a place in the big picture of Huge Scale Environmental and Humanitarian Projects to Repair The Earth.

Dennis

[Cjay]

Pan, regarding the mobile pyrolysis: even if 50% of the biomass is wasted, 50% ends up as biochar which is better than wasting 100% of the trees by burning them to ash. Many different mobile pyrolysis systems have been developed. No one system is perfect for every situation.

The pdf you posted (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52523-ANNOUNCEMENT-Huge-Scale-Environmental-and-Humanitarian-Projects-to-Repair-The-Earth&p=593146&viewfull=1#post593146)) is quite a comprehensive discussion of biochar issues.

Dennis, processes exist to extract bio-fuels and fertilizers from the smoke. Perhaps the Envirolene process could be adapted for that purpose. Jay Toups should be able to answer that question.

[Arrowwind]

Before I get into what I was going to post I wanted to mention to cjay that in Australia the Chinese government has purchased huge swaths of agricultural land. In Japan the Chinese have purchased water rights. Be careful of this, of them. Corporate farming with the interests of other nations cannot be a very good thing. Id be keeping an eye on that and also that China may be thinking about purchasing water rights or actual aquifers in Australia. Please watch the film called "Blue Gold" found on netflix and youtube to become more aware of these types of situations... its about the corporate buy out of a nations waters by corporations and which leads me to the potential of water owned by a one world order, with loss of jurisdiction in the local nation,,, agenda 21 if the UN had its way.



1. Biochar, great and it works and its been around for a while, lets build on it.

2. Compost tea, agian, it works, lets implement it.

3. Magnetic water, seems to work too, has to be promoted.

4. Lets add the hugelkultur to this, works like a charm too.

5. Lasagna Gardening

6. Animals


I have added to this list the concept of Lasagna or layered gardening and animals.

and for me personally I add the following not necessarily in this order:

a good plan
a tractor
and a good man

The plan part is essential and perhaps not the part Im best at. I have requried heavily on my intuiton about nature and the cycles of life that I have developed out of my spiritual work. If you dont understand or respect the nature of plants, the soil, the earth, plant and water spirits, then you wont get the results you hope for... and on the most primary level this will be the downfall of Monsanto, Cargil and the likes. Concrete practical applications are of course my weakest area. Im always looking for solutons to problems and due to my core beliefs i seek those anwers amongst people with similar core beliefs for technology based on strong spiritual principle will provide what I seek, this I know to the core of my being.. It is no different in principle that what I have learned about alternative medicine and how to keep well. Ive read Rudolph Steiner some and Acres Magazine

Now not everyone gets to have a tractor I admit. And my husband is given full credit for some fancy wheeling and dealing to get us in that position. I feel that if you are going to do anything more than lasagna gardening on an undeveloped piece of land a tractor is essential. They are not that costly for an old one and old one's seem to just keep on going and going and going. You need a tiller and you need a scoope and sometimes the strong dog that it is to pull out trees and stumps and fence posts etc. But I can potentially see a day where we might not need it too much but for this first three years here it has been essential for developing the land and consquently we have not worn ourselves out on this project so far. Over time tractors loose little monetary value. They are a good investment. They are the answer to prevent self slavery.

A good man is essential for doing those tasks that I cant do and that guite frankly, many women can't do. Also for the back rub at night when the aching keeps one from sleep. So working on the land is a team sport, with each individual doing what they are most capable of. Im sure there are lots of woman who can do what a good man can... Im just not one of them, and I think there are more of my type than the other and I've never had the incliniation to work so hard physically that it kills me. I think that that would be counter productive, no?

Regarding biochar:

Many soil conditions will not require biochar. Although it may be helpful to maintain nutrients there are other things that work too. It all depends on what resources you have, your soil type, etc. Im quite sure it is the answer for our midwest farms (USA), at least in part. But for those who have lush vegetation and generally good soil all around there are other options. The greatest benefits with biochar are seen in the poorest soils. It will be interesting to see what monsanto comes up with regarding biochar. It seems like a counter productive move for them unless they are planning to move into organics. For biochar to work you have to have living micro-organisms in the soil. Their chemicals kill most of it.


Magnetic Water: Ive read that in australia that magnetic water is used in some areas, In California too. Magnetic water is different than photonic water. I have no direct experience with either but I am going to opt for the photonic water because the device lasts forever. Magnetic water requires replacements of magnets every 10 years or so because the magnetics wear out and its not cheap. According to some video Ive seen the increase in production they create has paid for the technology. Seems like you will get more bang for your buck with photonic over the long haul. If there are actual differences in what they can do that is measurable on plant health and production I have not seen any reports.

Huglekulter: to me this is fully in the experimental range. Its quite a foreign concept to me but I can follow the theory trail to understand why it might work. Im going to experiment with it but Im not at a point where I will say this is it! Im looking forward to hearing how other people get along with it. For large scale operations I dont see much ease in harvesting nor planting but for smaller operations it may be of value or where labor is abundant and inexpensive. There is much to be said for large flat pieces of land when planting for the multitudes.

Compost Tea: something all farmers should do I suspect. I havent' done it yet but last year I made manure tea and saw some good results. It was so rediculously easy to do you gotta wonder why it hasn't caught on more as the concept has been around for a long time

Lasagna Gardening:

This process I think is essential to the small gardener and perhaps for the larger acreage farmer too. So much of the resistence to gardening I think is the toil that is required and it certainly was a consideration for me when i started this project.

So my plan was lasagna gardening and I selected this because it is so much easier than tilling the soil, getting down on your hands and knees (not required with raised beds) and it requried next to no expense after the beds were constructed. I can sit on or next to my bed and work without excessive physical stress. Now this may not be an issue for someone in their 20's but it could be for many, espcecially if they havent' done much but watch TV and play video games their whole life.

I needed something with minimal cost. Now in my estimation most of those women who go shopping in fancy garden stores are mostly throwing their money away. I couldnt afford to do that, being that we live on only one social security check for two people in our retirement years. I had to grow food economically and fast within a very short growing season and be able to put a percentage away for the winter.
the only reason that folks shop in such places is becasue they really dont understand what they are doing and they haven't developed any resouces to do otherwise... but granted, its a start.

Lasagna gardening was the answer for me. It gave me my start and since I've started I feel much braver in attempting new projects that require greater physical demand. Remember, I wasn't born doing this stuff and most of my work, although requiring a certain physical and mental stamina did not match up to what is required for a farmer/gardener. I had to slide into this carefully after having some experiences where I found it difficult to walk the next day.

Most city people will be confronted with these issues and it makes it easy to give up unless you have a plan that works. Most of us intuitvely know how hard farming is. I've considered it many times over the years as I reached for that onion or watermelon on the supermarket shelf. Lasagna gardening gave me my confidence and and gradual warming up to get me ready for greater tasks.

the biggest down fall with lasagna gardening in the raised beds it the cost of construction. I didnt want to use treated wood so that meant even higher cost. The good news is that I have recouped all the expense by selling at the farmers market over the last two summers. Farmer's market pays for all my gardening expense now, which isn't a big horn to toot becasue my expenses are quite low. Eventually those wooden frame boxes will degrade, it might be 10 or 15 years but its coming. I recommend stone or concrete block if you can find your way to that, or even staw bales which can be picked up for about a dollar or two each if they have mildewed.

I have started lasagna methods now on larger non-raised beds. It felt strange piling all that stuff up on the ground with no frame but I got over it. The first year the growth was not so hot and most likely because I put too much grass clippings on. But this year it was spectatular. I have two such beds, one roughly 18 x 25 and the other 14 x 6.

Most lasagna methods say to layer your beds in the early spring. This fall I decided to do it in October. I will probably add another layer or two in spring. The layering will provide heat to the seedlings, expecially if you cover the beds... which I have not done, but Ive seen neighbors lasagna beds literally steaming in the early spring when covered with plastic... Im really trying to avoid the use of plastics... but where ever there is composting going on there is some heat.

this spring we are going to be look at spreading of grass clippings on our pasture...an attempt to lasagana a pasture in a simple way.

Animals: Sustainable gardening requries animals. There just isn't anyway around it and either you will have animals yourself or you will be buying or begging from neighbors for the manure. My goal is to have a sustainable circle of life on one piece of land... so you dont have to travel or beg or buy to get what you need to keep the whole show running. Now for many it may just be easier to go get what you need elsewhere and thats fine but remember, if the gas can goes empty a ton of cow manure or 20 buckets of chicken poop is a lot of work to move down a mile of road. Amimals also provide meat, eggs, milk, and humor and companionship that is unsurpased. Their presence gives depth of experience... a real added value.

Cjay, are there plans for animials in your creation?


If one lives in the city and has a small yard all of this can be done in many areas. The ressurection of the city chicken coup confirms it. Backyard chickens are a movement spreading far and wide. With grass clippings, chickn poop, gathered leaves and other debris, compost and/or compost tea, all into a raised bed its all possible. A lot of scavening for raw materials is possible in a city... and people dont realize just how much garden leftovers there are to build soil with for the next year.

When people start to grow things for themselves it will give them the perspective that they need to stand up in resistence to folks like monsanto and to promote more sustainable agriculture by voting with their wallets.





Have you looked at Farmer Johns farm near Chicago? One of the more successful CSA projects. There is a great movie called "The Real Dirt On Farmer John" on netfix and youtbube, is not free but only 1.99...
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+dirt+on+farmer+john&oq=the+dirt+on+farmer+&gs_l=youtube.1.0.0.578.6306.0.8114.21.11.1.9.9.0.348.1585.2j6j1j1.10.0...0.0...1ac.1.l9lE99xf3Tc

[Arrowwind]

Look at what I just found in Australia... and that spiraling water looks like it replicates the photonic water device.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT3UGQG6YCg

In California
http://www.patsbdfarm.com/flowforms.htm

In Australia
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/editpost.php?p=593201&do=editpost

[Cjay]

Great posts, Arrowwind.

I'm aware of many foreigners, including Chinese, buying up agricultural land. My associates work with them in two main ways: managing their farms and hemp materials-science research. In this wide brown land called Australia, land is plentiful and water is scarce. Water rights are strictly regulated and attempt to balance the needs of the environment and farmers. Perhaps the most controversial case in Australia, partly due to the enormous scale of the operation, is Cubbie Station. However Cubbie station has been hotly debated long before the Chinese invested in it. We need to be ever vigilant when it comes to any large commercial interest gaining control of vast natural resources.


Cubbie's water clouds the foreign investment issue

by: TALKING POINT
From: The Australian
September 06, 2012 12:00AM


THE discussion about the sale of Cubbie Station to Chinese interests misses the point. Cubbie Station is a business that uses vast volumes of water in an unreliable environment.

The nation has been trying to conserve water and reduce wasteful enterprises. Cotton and rice production are hugely demanding of water in the driest continent on the planet and would rarely be approved today except in the northwest [of Western Australia, where there is abundant water and minimal agriculture].

The government has been buying back water licences, although that has generally been from sources that will generate little return for the investment. We have a Murray Basin water plan that will take water from licensees whose life and investment will be heavily affected.

Here was an opportunity to correct a bad decision. Buying Cubbie Station would have allowed the government to return large volumes of water to the system and resell the land for more suitable production.

The question is not whether the sale to China is wrong, it is that selling to China will make it more difficult for the government to reduce the water allocation.

Barnaby Joyce is therefore right for the wrong reasons. Arguing against foreign investment in a country that depends on foreign investment makes no sense but selling control of the world's most valuable resource has profound consequences...

...Cubbie sucks 200,000 megalitres out of the system annually to the detriment of farmers downstream. On that basis alone it should never have been allowed to go ahead.
Full article: theaustralian.com.au/opinion/cubbies-water-clouds-the-foreign-investment-issue (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/cubbies-water-clouds-the-foreign-investment-issue/story-fn558imw-1226465905828)



Farmers fume over Cubbie station 'gift' of water licence

by: Greg Roberts
From: The Australian
July 10, 2008 12:00AM

FARMERS in NSW have reacted angrily to moves by the Queensland Government to issue a water licence worth as much as $100 million to a cotton company headed by a former state Labor treasurer.

State government sources said that Cubbie station, the biggest irrigator in the Murray-Darling Basin, would soon be issued a tradeable water allocation when the draft Resource Operating Plan for the Condamine-Balonne rivers was finalised.

The licence would allow Cubbie to sell 94,655 megalitres of water a year.

Last week, Cubbie Group chairman Keith de Lacy, the treasurer in the Goss Labor government, said the company would consider selling water under last week's Council of Australian Governments agreement, which set aside $350 million for purchasing water entitlements in Queensland. Industry sources said Cubbie was heavily in debt and was required to pay National Australia Bank $60 million by the end of the year.

Australian Floodplain Association co-ordinator Mark Ettridge said the Rudd Government should tell Queensland that the issuing of a tradeable licence to Cubbie was unacceptable.

He said the water could be worth as much as $1000 a megalitre if Cubbie's allocation was purchased to boost flows in the Murray-Darling. "This amounts to a massive gift to Cubbie," he said.
Full article: theaustralian.com.au/news/farmers-fume-over-cubbie-gift (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/farmers-fume-over-cubbie-gift/story-e6frg6o6-1111116871990)


You are right that biochar may not be needed in some soils but it can benefit most soils. Every location needs to be thoroughly assessed, bearing in mind the history of land use, detailed soil analysis, intended uses of the land, economics and other factors. Sometimes the least expensive solutions are the best.

Regarding magnetic water, some are expected to last 50 years or more. I want to trial several different systems using light, vortices and magnets, separately and in combinations. Here is a summary of some research carried out by the University of Western Sydney.

http://www.fractalfield.com/implodermagneticresearch/sydneystudy.jpg

This badly designed page includes a lot of interesting research information:
http://www.fractalfield.com/implodermagneticresearch/

Hugelkultur is a variation on swales. I haven't tried it yet but an email I received yesterday suggests an opportunity to combine hugelkultur with ponding on a large scale in the parched clay-pans of western New South Wales.

Lasagne gardening is a good descriptive term. I haven't tried that either but it sounds simple and logical. I am open to try a bit of everything. No one system will work in every situation so it's good to have a lot of methods to choose from and combine.

Animals, both domesticated and wild, are definitely part of my plans.

I enjoyed The Real Dirt on Farmer John video. Thanks for the tip. Farmer John's journey through life is a lesson for us all.

I am aware of biodynamics but I had not seen the video you posted. Flowforms are a nice simple way of creating opposing vortices in water, as often happens in nature.

The "In Australia" link doesn't work, at the bottom of your post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52523-ANNOUNCEMENT-Huge-Scale-Environmental-and-Humanitarian-Projects-to-Repair-The-Earth&p=593201&viewfull=1#post593201).

Avalon member, nomadguy, reminded me of an interesting technique for rapidly regenerating degraded dry land - imprinting. nomadguy gave me these links about imprinting:
http://permaculturenews.org/2012/09/19/imprinting-soils-creating-instant-edge-for-large-scale-revegetation-of-barren-lands/
http://www.imprinting.org/
http://www.imprinting.org/about.htm

[Bo Atkinson]

Cjay, I think you pointed to the problems with mass production of bio char, (the wasting of biomass parts). Which i agree and interpret as a fault of centralization-- Centralized mega plants are the trade mark of ... Too big fail, too big for society to properly analyze, too big to understand. Too big to notice when the shills gouge tax payers, for financing (and hot little hands).

However, the sewerage of humanity shares that same fault. Centralized sewerage mixes incompatible sources. Only some of which is excellent for agriculture. Other ingredients of waste waters are the compounded errors of commerce-- Profiteering-priorities have disallowed complete recycling and sustenance. The Asian cultures, i think, had slightly better traditions here, for "night soil" and water conservation. But it was not maintained after the burst of advancing technologies. The people multiplied themselves, instead of multiplying workable, decentralized, societal systems. Working out the details was just thrown to the sharks.


RE: Large Scale Approaches:
RE: Huge Project Scales:

These tend to promote centralized, authoritarian systems.

Where there are flows of wealthy commerce, the sharks come in hitting hard.

Blood runs in the street prompting more sharks to run more parts of society.

This explains much of difficult history to me.

Urban-suburban systems are arguably slave camp aquariums, (for epochal sharks).

Which will tend to keep life controlled as it is-- Confused and punctuated with wars or genocides.



RE: Smaller System Approaches:

Sharks are generally repulsed or pacified.

Humans here are challenged with comprehensive responsibilities.

If they are not tricked into loosing self-responsibility.

Epochal trickery did penetrate all media and misinformed regulative choices.

Decentralized technologies exist, but are shuffled, hidden or lost.


Defining individualized situations and propositions therefore makes good sense to me. Again, thanks to all for posting.

There are excessive differences between climate zones, soils, precipitation levels and attitudes.

Big shoes cannot fit all walks. We can't walk one talk.

[Arrowwind]

Flowforms in Australia
http://www.livingwaterflowforms.com/

We have two small water falls on a line that bring water from the irrigation ditch to a pond from which we pump from. I lined those areas with large quartz crystals and the water swirls around and spills over them.. I wonder if it does anything good for it.

[Bo Atkinson]

I tried to get into organic-fountain jobs but this is not a high-demand "growth area" (for laborer employment). Abundant water seasons demand good land-sculpting where the soils are based on fine particles and therefore are less permeable. I have found composting can be considerably sped up with ruber sheet covers. (This type of rubber is normally used as roofing or pond lining. Therefore expensive, but it lasts indefinitely and does not blow away in the wind.) Here i am combining water drainage work with newly assembled, heavy-composting of twigs on bottom layer, mixed soil and organic wastes on top... Add trickle from nitrogen compost tank, during growing season... Grows the best swash as winter food, on top rotating to gentler rooted crops as soil qualities improve with time. I think many kinds of names have applied to innovative, spurs of the moment, over the generations and across cultures.

http://harmoniouspalette.com/CompostDitching.jpg

As to flow forms, crystals and such... I feel these are focalizing lenses for our intention-- Interpreted with the mind over matter concept. These phenomena build through like minded intentions over the generations and the ages... Unless the competing negative energies hijack them instead, for competitive intentions.

Have humans built up enough positive intention to, harmonize the earth? Or will the AI Clans achieve their robotic, sterile, collectives to run earth for the coming new epoch? Is this test, the earth transformation period which we now endure?...

[write4change]

I just found this thread and will be spending the many hours needed to it well. thank you so much for posting it.

[Anchor]

Flowforms in Australia
http://www.livingwaterflowforms.com/

We have two small water falls on a line that bring water from the irrigation ditch to a pond from which we pump from. I lined those areas with large quartz crystals and the water swirls around and spills over them.. I wonder if it does anything good for it.

In my experience, intent is everything. Especially potent when used with water - and quartz (though I am hazy on this). I know we put quartz round plants that are not doing so well and it often marks the moment when they recover.

When I water a fruit tree, my intent is focused on channeling as much love into the water as possible. I love my trees basically, its as simple as that.

Then my apples can become little balls of love that if the birds dont get them - people can eat :)

[Bo Atkinson]

http://harmoniouspalette.com/decentralized-individuality.jpg
Can individualist intention produce a better world?

[panopticon]

http://harmoniouspalette.com/decentralized-individuality.jpg
Can individualist intention produce a better world?

Love the digger there wavydome.
Your own design?
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Bo Atkinson]

Thanks Panopticon,

Actually it was mostly from a packaged kit of parts, of crude, thick steel cut-outs and assorted hydraulics (Off the shelf twin cylinder engine)....

I stick welded it together, whew ;)

My main change was to make it a 3 wheel, salvaged wheel rig instead of the intended 4 wheels.

Unfortunately, the wheel mounted motors are much too weak... Sad that there are no small motors of slower RPMs, more torque, for uses like this. A friend of mine in the hydraulic business searched his sources and could find none.

If i had known, i would have not bought the motors and instead... Moved it with bucket alone, at big savings. Or used the Subaru to tow it distances.

[Cjay]

I received some emails last week containing the following news articles:


This New Zealand company is certainly preparing itself for hemp food being approved in December:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1211/S01227/hemp-seeds-sown.htm

A French winery uses hemp blocks for building:
http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/47729

Hemp is being used in composites for new tractors in Canada:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/farm-grown-tractors-181652471.html


Regarding the government's deliberations about whether hemp foods should be allowed to be eaten by humans in Australia:

Food Standards Australia and New Zealand says "YES". Police say "NO". The police have a commercial vested interest in the seriously flawed roadside saliva drug tests (corrupt cops? gee what a suprise) - and this despite multiple submissions proving that hemp food products will not affect the saliva tests.

Quoting from an email:

Subject: MEDIA RELEASE: Hemp seed food vote

Media Report

Dodgy drug tests bring down hemp industry

Australian Ministers today voted against lifting the Australian only ban on the consumption of low thc hemp seed foods. The decision did not reject the proposal but paves the way for a review of submissions and all evidence supplied.
Although hemp seed foods are sold all round the world, Australian ministers refused to accept the advise and extensive approval notice prepared by Foods Standards Australia New Zealand (FSANZ) over the past 10 years.

Vitahemp Australia Director and President of the Northern River Hemp Association, Andrew Kavasilas [a medical doctor] said " we anticipated a review would be called".
In May 2012 Mr [Dr] Kavasilas appeared in a Landline episode in which he seemed certain police opposition would trigger a review.

FSANZ found hemp seed food products are available in all OECD countries and although commercial cultivation of hemp is not permitted in the USA, hemp seed food imports are in the $100's of millions.

Mr [Dr] Kavasilas said, " we know a domestic market already exists, but the export market is key to that evolution. If we can't get domestic approval, Australian producers may additionally not be in a position to export any processed lines.

"The overwhelming support for hemp seed farming underlines it's importance to broader hemp industries. There are now many questions to answer and claims to be substantiated by Police who provided all the opposition based on the assumption that hemp food consumption would interfere with saliva testing swabs", Mr [Dr] Kavasilas added.
"it also appears that Australia is the only country that employs oral fluid testing despite all evidence pointing to reliability and forensic issues"


A previous email:

> Dear Minister
>
> I draw your attention to claims and inaccurate information supplied to NSW
> Food Authority (NSWFA) and Food Standards Australia New Zealand (FSANZ) by
> various State Police departments in relation to lifting the Australian ban
> on low THC hemp seed food.
>
> FSANZ has researched extensively and found no health or safety issues with
> hemp seed products anywhere in the world.
> Several Supporting Documents (SD) comprehensively address Australian Police
> concerns including issues related to roadside oral fluid testing.
> FSANZ also determined that no other country employs roadside oral fluid
> testing, supplying evidence to inherent unreliability, lack of scientific
> or clinical development, absence of data and testing procedures do not
> conform to Australian Standards (SD3).
> Moreover, SD3 raises very serious questions about the Australian take-up of
> this costly measure, cost directly related and now indirectly.
> SD 4 (FSANZ discussions with police agencies and forensic analysts)
> highlights and addresses all inaccuracies, unsubstantiated and unreliable
> information attributed to various State Police.
>
> A separate Tasmanian Inquiry is leading to a determination that lifting the
> Australian ban on hemp seed foods will give impetus to broader hemp
> industries.
> It is hoped Members will grant leave to the Tasmanian Minister to address
> the Forum and provide evidence that addresses all legitimate concerns.
>
> Briefly, hemp seeds produce a very favourable nutritional profile, contain
> superior quality omega 3, 6 and 9, all known amino acids, plant based and
> free of all allergens makes it preferable to fish and other animal oils.
> Hemp seed foods are promoted internationally on Good Morning and cooking
> shows, as sport and health supplements with many top athletes giving
> endorsements to various brands. Hemp seed foods do not interfere with blood
> and urine testing employed by work health and sporting authorities.
>
> Contained in documents obtained under GIPA (NSW FOI), NSW Police
> acknowledge hemp seed food products are consumed and promoted all round the
> world and in spite of the illegality, many health conscious Australian are
> simply ordering over the net. Several foreign companies have established
> importation and domestic distribution. NSW Police did question existing
> product labelling such as, 'not for human consumption in Australia'.
> NSW Police also enquired as what action NSWFA had taken in relation to hemp
> seed food promotion and consumption in NSW. NSWFA replied that they had not
> had any complaints and that it would be complex to action such, as evidence
> would be difficult to gather and most probably would result in a warning.
> NSWFA reiterated their stance that they have no problem with hemp seed food
> per se.
> Personally I think achieving a successful prosecution of a person for
> selling or eating something healthy would be quite onerous.
> Privately, Police have stated they would not defend a contested drug
> driving matter where the defendant could show oral fluid contamination,
> including side-stream inhalation.
>
> Of great concern and enormous interest for the emerging Australian hemp
> industry, in November NSW Trade and Development granted $44.000 to
> Hempfoods UK subsidiary Hempfoods Australia to set up a hemp seed food
> factory for purported import/export only.
>
> Vitahemp is amongst many Australian businesses and farmers seeking to have
> the ban on hemp seed foods lifted so as to join the legitimate global hemp
> seed food industry.
> Vitahemp has identified, bred and continues to develop sub tropical hemp
> varieties with no detectable trace of THC that we hope to be the benchmark
> in this emerging industry.
>
> We seek the Ministers vote to ratify FSANZ Approval Notice in relation to
> Application 1039 to lift the Australian ban on the consumption of hemp seed
> foods.


By the way, Dr. Kavasilas wrote "Application A1039" urging the government to repeal the laws prohibiting the sale of hemp foods in Australia, triggering FSANZ's review.

Read more: http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/foodstandards/applications/applicationa1039lowt4708.cfm


If you would like to help end the government's ignorance/insanity, please call and/or write to all of these ministers who are the ones responsible for voting on Application 1039:


Australian Government:
The Hon Catherine King, MP
Parliamentary Secretary for Health and Ageing
Ph: (02) 6277 4230
PO Box 6022, House of Representatives, Parliament House, Canberra ACT 2600
Catherine.King.MP@aph.gov.au

Senator the Hon Joe Ludwig
Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry
Ph: (02) 6277 7520
PO Box 6022 ACT 2600
sentator.ludwig@aph.gov.au

New Zealand:
The Hon Kate Wilkinson
Minister for Food Safety
Kate Wilkinson MP
Parliament House, Wellington
Private Bag 18 888, Wellington
Ph: (04) 817 6819
Fax : (04) 817 6519
Email: kate.wilkinson@national.org.nz

ACT:
Ms Katy Gallagher, MLA
Minister for Health
Ph: (02) 6205 0840
PO Box 1020 ACT 2601
gallaher@act.gov.au

NSW:
Lead Minister:
The Hon Katrina Hodgkinson, MP
Minister for Primary Industries
Ph: (02) 9228 5210
PO Box 600 YASS 2582
office@hodgkinson.minister.nsw.gov.au

The Hon Jillian Skinner, MP
Minister for Health
Ph: (02) 9228 5229
office@skinner.minister.nsw.gov.au

NT:
Lead Minister:
The Hon Kon Vatskalis, MLA
Minister for Health
Ph: (08) 8901 4118
GPO 3146 Darwin 0801
minister.vatskalis@nt.gov.au

QLD:
Lead Minister:
The Hon Lawrence Springborg, MP
Minister for Health
Ph: (07) 32341191
GPO Box 48 QLD 4001
health@ministerial.qld.gov.au

The Hon John McVeigh MP
Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry
Ph: (07) 3239 3000
GPO Box 46 BRISBANE QLD 4001
daff@ministerial.qld.gov.au

SA:
Lead Minister:
The Hon John Hill, MP
Minister for Health
Ph: (08) 84636270
Minister.helath@health.sa.gov.au

TAS:
Lead Minister:
The Hon Michelle O'Byrne, MP
Minister for Health
Ph: (03) 6233 0804
Michelle.obyrne@parliament.tas.gov.au

VIC:
Lead Minister:
The Hon David Davis, MLC
Minister for Health
Ph: (03) 90968561
minister.healthageing@minstaff.vic.gov.au

The Hon Peter Walsh, MP
Minister for Agriculture and Food Security
Ph: (03) 9938 5954
peter.walsh@parliament.vic.gov.au

WA:
Lead Minister:
The Hon Dr Kim Hames, MB BS JP MLA
Minister for Health
Ph: (08) 6552 5300
minister.hames@dpc.wa.gov.au

The Hon Terry Redman, MLA
Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry
Ph: (08) 6552 6700
minister.redman@dpc.wa.gov.au

[panopticon]

G'day Cjay,

Industrial Hemp has been getting a lot of publicity in Tasmania.

The Tasmanian Farmers and Graziers Association (TFGA) has been spruiking its benefits all year and saying that it is a potential crop diversifier that could work as well as the poppies (pharmaceutical) have.

Kim Booth (http://mps.tas.greens.org.au/2012/11/hemp-ruling-a-potential-boost-for-tasmanian-agriculture-fsanz-decision-still-needs-coag-support/) (MP) has been all over this, from using industrial hemp as a biomass and carbon sequester to a forestry alternative. There's a government review at the moment on how best to establish industrial hemp in Tassie. You name it hemp can do it. Only thing it doesn't seem able to do is bring Gunns pulp mill back from oblivion or repay the farmers who have land tied up in tree plantations with no likelihood of returns for years because of Gunns agreement stopping them being able to use the trees for anything else (even though they are no longer being paid for the plantations)...

There's no shortage of "Gunns induced tourette's" in Tasmania.

So, there's no shortage of pressure on the Minister from Tassie.

The following report from the 7th December seems to indicate that a review has been requested by the Ministers:


Low THC Hemp
Ministers have sought a review on the proposed standard for low THC hemp as a food. Ministers have agreed to seek advice from the Standing Council on Police and Emergency Services.
Source (http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/scienceandeducation/mediacentre/mediareleases/mediareleases2012/7december2012communi5749.cfm).

BTW, the TFGA submission to FSANZ:

http://www.tfga.com.au/index.php/download_file/view/146/219/FSANZ_Hemp_Submission.pdf?file=FSANZ_Hemp_Submission.pdf
Source (http://www.tfga.com.au/index.php/download_file/view/146/219/FSANZ_Hemp_Submission.pdf?file=FSANZ_Hemp_Submission.pdf).

The TFGA submission to the Tasmanian Government inquiry:

http://www.parliament.tas.gov.au/ctee/House/Submissions/Tasmanian%20Farmers%20and%20Graziers%20Association.pdf
Source (http://www.parliament.tas.gov.au/ctee/House/Submissions/Tasmanian%20Farmers%20and%20Graziers%20Association.pdf).
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[panopticon]

Low THC Hemp
Ministers have sought a review on the proposed standard for low THC hemp as a food. Ministers have agreed to seek advice from the Standing Council on Police and Emergency Services.
Source (http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/scienceandeducation/mediacentre/mediareleases/mediareleases2012/7december2012communi5749.cfm).

Unless a special hearing is called by the Standing Council on Police and Emergency Services (http://www.ag.gov.au/Committeesandcouncils/Ministerialcouncils/Pages/StandingCouncilonPoliceandEmergencyManagement.aspx) the next sitting is near the end of June. Wonder if this needs to be a full sitting though, maybe 'seek advice from' means just gather information/input.

[Cjay]

My feeling is the government ministers will fiddle around as long as possible and do nothing then, when the next election is called, they will use that as a reason to stop working on the hemp food issue and bury it in the past. After that, it will probably require someone to submit a completely new application and start the process all over again with the new government. I hope I'm wrong but this has already been going around in circles for at least ten years.

[modwiz]

My feeling is the government ministers will fiddle around as long as possible and do nothing then, when the next election is called, they will use that as a reason to stop working on the hemp food issue and bury it in the past. After that, it will probably require someone to submit a completely new application and start the process all over again with the new government. I hope I'm wrong but this has already been going around in circles for at least ten years.

The good news is, time ain't what it used to be. Things are moving so fast these days, it is almost a blur.

[Cjay]

Indeed, some changes are occurring very quickly. However, politicians have mastered the art of wasting enormous amounts of time and money while achieving nothing - unless it is part of their political agenda, then they rush in, make a terrible mess of things and waste extraordinary amounts of money, then waste more money trying to fix the problems they created.

When political leaders retire, they charge their pension, office, car and travel expenses (and probably much more) to the public for the rest of their lives. Long after they are dead, we the public are still paying off multi-billion dollar loans for projects that should never have been started and were rorted every step of the way.

Perhaps one of the biggest scourges on humanity is politics and government. We need a complete reset.

[panopticon]

I'm a big advocate for decentralised utilities as they place power (literally and figuratively) back in the hands of the individuals using the end service.

I came across this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/opinion/solar-panels-for-every-home.html) on residential solar panel installations (yes, I'm aware of the issues with solar) as a means of overcoming grid collapse and thought I'd store it then thought it might fit well in this thread.
So...

###

Solar Panels for Every Home

By David Crane and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Published: December 12, 2012

WE don’t think much about pitch pine poles until storms like Hurricane Sandy litter our landscape with their splintered corpses and arcing power lines. Crews from as far away as California and Quebec have worked feverishly to repair or replace those poles as utility companies rebuild their distribution systems the way they were before.

Residents of New Jersey and New York have lived through three major storms in the past 16 months, suffering through sustained blackouts, closed roads and schools, long gas lines and disrupted lives, all caused by the destruction of our electric system. When our power industry is unable to perform its most basic mission of supplying safe, affordable and reliable power, we need to ask whether it is really sensible to run the 21st century by using an antiquated and vulnerable system of copper wires and wooden poles.

Some of our neighbors have taken matters into their own hands, purchasing portable gas-powered generators in order to give themselves varying degrees of “grid independence." But these dirty, noisy and expensive devices have no value outside of a power failure. And they’re not much help during a failure if gasoline is impossible to procure.

Having spent our careers in and around the power industry, we believe there is a better way to secure grid independence for our homes and businesses. (Disclosure: Mr. Crane’s company, based in Princeton, N.J., generates power from coal, natural gas, and nuclear, wind and solar energy.) Solar photovoltaic technology can significantly reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and our dependence on the grid. Electricity-producing photovoltaic panels installed on houses, on the roofs of warehouses and big box stores and over parking lots can be wired so that they deliver power when the grid fails.

Solar panels have dropped in price by 80 percent in the past five years and can provide electricity at a cost that is at or below the current retail cost of grid power in 20 states, including many of the Northeast states. So why isn’t there more of a push for this clean, affordable, safe and inexhaustible source of electricity?

First, the investor-owned utilities that depend on the existing system for their profits have little economic interest in promoting a technology that empowers customers to generate their own power. Second, state regulatory agencies and local governments impose burdensome permitting and siting requirements that unnecessarily raise installation costs. Today, navigating the regulatory red tape constitutes 25 percent to 30 percent of the total cost of solar installation in the United States, according to data from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, and, as such, represents a higher percentage of the overall cost than the solar equipment itself.

In Germany, where sensible federal rules have fast-tracked and streamlined the permit process, the costs are considerably lower. It can take as little as eight days to license and install a solar system on a house in Germany. In the United States, depending on your state, the average ranges from 120 to 180 days. More than one million Germans have installed solar panels on their roofs, enough to provide close to 50 percent of the nation’s power, even though Germany averages the same amount of sunlight as Alaska. Australia also has a streamlined permitting process and has solar panels on 10 percent of its homes. Solar photovoltaic power would give America the potential to challenge the utility monopolies, democratize energy generation and transform millions of homes and small businesses into energy generators. Rational, market-based rules could turn every American into an energy entrepreneur. That transition to renewable power could create millions of domestic jobs and power in this country with American resourcefulness, initiative and entrepreneurial energy while taking a substantial bite out of the nation’s emissions of greenhouse gases and other dangerous pollutants.

As we restore crucial infrastructure after the storm, let’s build an electricity delivery system that is more resilient, clean, democratic and reliable than the one that Sandy washed away. We can begin by eliminating the regulatory hurdles impeding solar generation and use incentives like the renewable energy tax credit — which Congress seems poised to eliminate — to balance the subsidies enjoyed by fossil fuel producers.

And as we rebuild the tens of thousands of houses and commercial buildings damaged and destroyed by the storm, let’s incorporate solar power arrays and other clean energy technologies in their designs, and let’s allow them to be wired so they still are generating even when the centralized grid system is down.

We have the technology. The economics makes sense. All we need is the political will.
Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/opinion/solar-panels-for-every-home.html).

[panopticon]

Came across an interesting report title 'Global Water Security (http://www.dni.gov/files/documents/Special%20Report_ICA%20Global%20Water%20Security.pdf)' by the NIC (http://www.dni.gov/index.php/about/organization/national-intelligence-council-nic-publications) from February 2012.

Talks about the problems that water scarcity around the world (for example from increased population, urbanisation, industrialisation) in the coming decades will have on stability from the local to global levels.

Here's the pdf of the maps that accompany the report:

http://www.dni.gov/files/documents/Special%20Report_Global%20Water%20Security%20Map.pdf
Source (http://www.dni.gov/files/documents/Special%20Report_Global%20Water%20Security%20Map.pdf).
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Anchor]

And as we rebuild the tens of thousands of houses and commercial buildings damaged and destroyed by the storm, let’s incorporate solar power arrays and other clean energy technologies in their designs, and let’s allow them to be wired so they still are generating even when the centralized grid system is down.

Sadly, most non-rural domestic solar installations are the type that connect to the grid, consequently, they do not work when the grid is down - they can't feed a grid that isn't working and they are designed not to even try, so the linesmen working on the broken bits don't have to work on live wires.

I get that there is a desire for clean energy but no one should kid themselves that solar is "green". Each panel requires a fantastic amount of energy to produce and the manufacture of them has toxic by products that are usually dumped as waste.

To be independent of the grid means the ability to either store and use, or generate your own power, when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing, and there are no easy, green, economical answers for that - YET. It can be done. I have done it. It is not economic.

Living somewhere where you can run a water wheel seems to me the greenest option - which if fine until someone dams the river..., or it dries up for other reasons.

I am sure that the answer to our energy problems lies elsewhere.

[panopticon]

Sadly, most non-rural domestic solar installations are the type that connect to the grid, consequently, they do not work when the grid is down - they can't feed a grid that isn't working and they are designed not to even try, so the linesmen working on the broken bits don't have to work on live wires.

G'day Anchor,

I took the closing paragraph to mean having the grid tie as a dump if excess power is generated and the grid is up, otherwise load dump goes elsewhere. My point is that decentralised management of utilities (ie local community run grids), or individual systems that grid tie their excess (dumped load), is an initial stage in setting up grass root run projects that empower the individual (literally and figuratively) while placing control of a valuable part of modern society (electrickery) in the hands of the user and not a remote other.

I've often mumbled about vanadium redox flow batteries (http://www.ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb/technology-services/vanadium-redox-flow-batteries.html) as a means of providing storage for peak load balancing in a decentralised community based system. Mix in solar as part of the system (along with wind, hydro, geothermal, tidal etc) and a community would be able to manage its own supply/demand cycle. The key word here is manage. As I'm sure you're aware living with renewables makes for an interesting life (especially when things go wrong) and people need to become part of the process when they take responsibility for their own power generation. Unfortunately our modern societies are more about recreation than cooperation or self reliance so getting people to understand anything more than "light switch makes light go on" can be very frustrating. I'm amazed at the number of people who can't even change a light bulb or check a fuse...

There's heaps of options in this field and the solar panels on every roof is only one of them. Take the Eco Whisper (http://econews.com.au/news-to-sustain-our-world/eco-whisper-launches-quiet-wind-turbine-revolution/) wind turbine:

http://www.resau.com.au/main/img_1250656595_15202_1342834264_mod_230_316.gif

Designed as a 5kW or 20 kW system it pumps straight into the grid. If the grid is owned by the community then a number of these would integrate easily and at a lower cost than a large turbine.



I get that there is a desire for clean energy but no one should kid themselves that solar is "green". Each panel requires a fantastic amount of energy to produce and the manufacture of them has toxic by products that are usually dumped as waste.

I agree.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Cjay]

The centralised power grid model is antiquated and greed-based. We have the technology and the sense to redesign the system and to put the power over the electricity supply back into the hands of the consumers, where it belongs.

[panopticon]

G'day CJay,

Just thought I'd let you know that the new 'Caring For Our Community' funding applications came online today and might be applicable to your project/s.
http://www.nrm.gov.au/funding/index.html
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Cjay]

The projects described in the opening post will be fully-funded very soon. :dance: Stay tuned for further updates.

[Anchor]

I've often mumbled about vanadium redox flow batteries as a means of providing storage for peak load balancing in a decentralised community based system. Mix in solar as part of the system (along with wind, hydro, geothermal, tidal etc) and a community would be able to manage its own supply/demand cycle. The key word here is manage. As I'm sure you're aware living with renewables makes for an interesting life (especially when things go wrong) and people need to become part of the process when they take responsibility for their own power generation. Unfortunately our modern societies are more about recreation than cooperation or self reliance so getting people to understand anything more than "light switch makes light go on" can be very frustrating. I'm amazed at the number of people who can't even change a light bulb or check a fuse...

Looks like I missed your response to my post when you originally made it - sorry. Thanks for that information on the vanadium batteries is very interesting. It is DC, so inverters will still be needed.

What you say about things going wrong is very important. I have designed a lot of redundancy into my systems - so I can move components around to cope with some kinds of failures. I will finalize the system this year and finally ask country energy to disconnect me, because right now I am paying the poles and wires charges but consuming no energy.

The approach I have adopted is not really in the community spirit, and Australian electrical regulations are very strict about power and power supply and distribution - pretty much you do it the governments way or not at all.

My intent is to share knowledge about this stuff and stop people getting ripped off. (One of my neighbors was quoted AUD $10,000 for a standalone solar bore pump!) I showed him a design for $3000 and offered to build it for him - and I would have still covered my time on that; and I know it works because my own runs that way.

[Cjay]

My intent is to share knowledge about this stuff and stop people getting ripped off. (One of my neighbors was quoted AUD $10,000 for a standalone solar bore pump!) I showed him a design for $3000 and offered to build it for him - and I would have still covered my time on that; and I know it works because my own runs that way.

Very interesting. I wish there were more people like you to help rid the world of greedy profiteers.

[panopticon]

Looks like I missed your response to my post when you originally made it - sorry. Thanks for that information on the vanadium batteries is very interesting. It is DC, so inverters will still be needed.

What you say about things going wrong is very important. I have designed a lot of redundancy into my systems - so I can move components around to cope with some kinds of failures. I will finalize the system this year and finally ask country energy to disconnect me, because right now I am paying the poles and wires charges but consuming no energy.

The approach I have adopted is not really in the community spirit, and Australian electrical regulations are very strict about power and power supply and distribution - pretty much you do it the governments way or not at all.

My intent is to share knowledge about this stuff and stop people getting ripped off. (One of my neighbors was quoted AUD $10,000 for a standalone solar bore pump!) I showed him a design for $3000 and offered to build it for him - and I would have still covered my time on that; and I know it works because my own runs that way.

G'day Anchor,

VRB is a very usable and scalable solution.
I had a chat with Professor Maria Skyllas-Kazaco (the co-inventor) back in 2010 regarding its use on site here. She was a bit surprised that I had her mobile phone number but after the initial shock we had a good talk. At the time she was working on 2nd gen VRB and said that in a few months the company, VFuel (http://www.vfuel.com.au/company.htm), should be selling systems. To date I am not aware of the cost of systems for remote site use (ie 5Kw+) but really should get off my arse and make some calls to find out!

Have you had any experience with the Optima battery? I was looking for a replacement for us and they seem to be very good. 10 year+ life, can be installed at angles (even upside down) and aren't as susceptible to freezing temps (15% loss as opposed to 30%+ loss for lead acid). Just curious if you, or anyone else for that matter, has used one or come across their use in service.

Here's a couple of videos explaining VRB tech:

DUb5Coo3qdQ
0Uk0GQNgtqg
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[panopticon]

Here's a really good short interview with Professor Skyllas-Kazacos (from ~2009) where she explains how VRB work, that they are modular (this is a key advantage), where they are being used at the time of the interview, where they are applicable, their use in both electric vehicles and home appliations and how Government and industry policy has stemied the use, and knowledge in the publics mind, on VBR tech.

dWuxQDRyLGw
-- Pan

[Anchor]

At the time she was working on 2nd gen VRB and said that in a few months the company, VFuel (http://www.vfuel.com.au/company.htm), should be selling systems. To date I am not aware of the cost of systems for remote site use (ie 5Kw+) but really should get off my arse and make some calls to find out!

Well this is all very interesting timing. The final part of my system is the batteries. I am using a temporary solution based on a 400Ah 24v battery bank, but I have concluded that I need that to be over 1200Ah. 28.8kWh of storage. But this is factoring in the usual idea that you dont want to discharge them more than 20% in normal use.


Have you had any experience with the Optima battery? I was looking for a replacement for us and they seem to be very good. 10 year+ life, can be installed at angles (even upside down) and aren't as susceptible to freezing temps (15% loss as opposed to 30%+ loss for lead acid). Just curious if you, or anyone else for that matter, has used one or come across their use in service.

Yes I have one in my Prado, its the second battery which usually powers my ARB fridge/freezer when I am on the road.

The key difference between them and more conventional batteries is that the electrodes are spiral wound. Other than that they are regular AGM batteries. The main benefit is that they can be used for both enging cranking and Deep cycle usage - whereas regular car batteries can be destroyed (or their life curtailed) by deep-cycling them.

If you share more about your usage requirement, I may be able to help.

[panopticon]

G'day Anchor,

Thanks for the response.



At the time she was working on 2nd gen VRB and said that in a few months the company, VFuel (http://www.vfuel.com.au/company.htm), should be selling systems. To date I am not aware of the cost of systems for remote site use (ie 5Kw+) but really should get off my arse and make some calls to find out!

Well this is all very interesting timing. The final part of my system is the batteries. I am using a temporary solution based on a 400Ah 24v battery bank, but I have concluded that I need that to be over 1200Ah. 28.8kWh of storage. But this is factoring in the usual idea that you dont want to discharge them more than 20% in normal use.

The VRB were quite high in price when I asked due to their needing to be manually constructed and installation on site was also quite high (increased foundation costs because of the weight of liquid required and installation of system by expert on site).

This can be offset with the fact that they will never need replacing. Theoretically they will last forever, though components may need replacing in service of course.

It really comes down to finances (can you justify the investment of capital) which is why I mention them in association with a community project as opposed to individual installations.




Have you had any experience with the Optima battery? I was looking for a replacement for us and they seem to be very good. 10 year+ life, can be installed at angles (even upside down) and aren't as susceptible to freezing temps (15% loss as opposed to 30%+ loss for lead acid). Just curious if you, or anyone else for that matter, has used one or come across their use in service.

Yes I have one in my Prado, its the second battery which usually powers my ARB fridge/freezer when I am on the road.

The key difference between them and more conventional batteries is that the electrodes are spiral wound. Other than that they are regular AGM batteries. The main benefit is that they can be used for both enging cranking and Deep cycle usage - whereas regular car batteries can be destroyed (or their life curtailed) by deep-cycling them.

If you share more about your usage requirement, I may be able to help.

Thanks for the offer. :)

Really simple system.
Usage is buggar all on the remote install.
Couple of solar panels with a Air-X 12V for winter and night time (wind is really good here and the integrated sensors in the Air-X means we don't have problems with overload etc).
Run a couple of 12V batteries (200Ah total which is all we need) for down lighting, 12 V appliances (eg fridge, car radio & amp, coffee percolator [I needs my cuppa!], water pump for pressure during winter, laptop charging) and that's about it.
Gas for cooking, gravity fed water pressure when available (otherwise 12V pump from tanks) and fireplace for warmth.

We get down to around -4 C regularly in winter but sometimes as low as -8 C.

My interest in the Optima is their long life and being less susceptible to freezing temps. Also interested in the AGM based Ritar RA12 100SD for the same reasons. The fibreglass insides and the 50% discharge is very impressive so I'm tossing up which to use as our next replacement (still a few years off but I like to be prepared).

One of the reasons I'm attracted to the Optima is because of their long shelf discharge life. Store for 6 months between recharge is pretty impressive so I could lock one away in the sea container Faraday for use if needed later. Also their dual use capabilities, that you mentioned, was another reasons I was attracted as a few might be a good investment as they can be used for crank start and deep cycle.

Any help/thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
-- Pan

BTW, we have more than one site here and that was the reason we were interested in the VRB as a storage solution for the systems that could be integrated (ie those that run on 240V and/or have higher power requirements like the workshop).

[Anchor]

On paper the optima's are very good but I think expensive for what you need. True they are energy dense, but so what? If you are not in a car or mobile home, that is not so much of a problem.

There are other dual use 12v batteries out there, I have used these: http://www.mpower.com.au/Products/Stored-Power/Batteries/Cyclic/ULTIMATE-Xtreme for small scale solar solutions. (And these http://www.apolloenergy.com.au/Renewable-Energy-Components/12V, I am currently using 2 of the Haze N70's in my workshop which, via a 3kw inverter, drive my power tools and charge from a 500W solar panel array). The N70's and the Ultimate batteries looks suspiciously similar to me, even the plastic molding seems the same :) So I suspect marketing shenanigans.

(Note running the workshop on just 2 100Ah batteries, is not normal, its temporary, but it is working!)

To get 200Ah using optima batteries you are going to need to connect a number of them in parallel. This works, but introduces the possibility that each does not charge to the same voltage as the other, and the whole array gets out of balance over time; and as this gets progressively worse, the life expectancy of one or more of the batteries will be reduced.

That said, I am running 4 strings myself 4 x 24v 100Ah (each is 2 12V batteries). I minimized the problem by using the same lengths of cable from the battery terminals to a common point; but it is not perfect.

Each of those optima batteries, like any 12V lead acid battery is really 6 2v cells in series, so say you have 4 x 50A 12V batteries to make your 12V 200Ah array, you are effectively running 4 strings of cells.

I would consider a single string of 2V cells, each at 200Ah.

If you are worried about the cold - just get bigger batteries to compensate, and make sure your charge controller compensates correctly for the temperature of the the actual battery and not the ambient (which is often different due to the high thermal mass of the battery) - so you will need to be using a remote sensor.

[panopticon]

On paper the optima's are very good but I think expensive for what you need. True they are energy dense, but so what? If you are not in a car or mobile home, that is not so much of a problem.

There are other dual use 12v batteries out there, I have used these: http://www.mpower.com.au/Products/Stored-Power/Batteries/Cyclic/ULTIMATE-Xtreme for small scale solar solutions. (And these http://www.apolloenergy.com.au/Renewable-Energy-Components/12V, I am currently using 2 of the Haze N70's in my workshop which, via a 3kw inverter, drive my power tools and charge from a 500W solar panel array). The N70's and the Ultimate batteries looks suspiciously similar to me, even the plastic molding seems the same :) So I suspect marketing shenanigans.

(Note running the workshop on just 2 100Ah batteries, is not normal, its temporary, but it is working!)

To get 200Ah using optima batteries you are going to need to connect a number of them in parallel. This works, but introduces the possibility that each does not charge to the same voltage as the other, and the whole array gets out of balance over time; and as this gets progressively worse, the life expectancy of one or more of the batteries will be reduced.

That said, I am running 4 strings myself 4 x 24v 100Ah (each is 2 12V batteries). I minimized the problem by using the same lengths of cable from the battery terminals to a common point; but it is not perfect.

Each of those optima batteries, like any 12V lead acid battery is really 6 2v cells in series, so say you have 4 x 50A 12V batteries to make your 12V 200Ah array, you are effectively running 4 strings of cells.

I would consider a single string of 2V cells, each at 200Ah.

If you are worried about the cold - just get bigger batteries to compensate, and make sure your charge controller compensates correctly for the temperature of the the actual battery and not the ambient (which is often different due to the high thermal mass of the battery) - so you will need to be using a remote sensor.

G'day Anchor,

Thank you very much for the information.

We were running a string of 2v batteries (joined by "T" connectors) but found it difficult to quickly identify when a cell was faulty which pulls the entire series voltage down due to balancing.
Do you know a way of identifying a faulty cell in a series easily (sulfate build-up I know and in our case there wasn't any way of singling them out like this).
Changed to a 6v series for a while but are presently using N70T Century batteries in Parallel 'til they die (few years off hopefully).
We have a 1500W inverter for use with smaller power tools when needed and we have sized some of our power tool selection accordingly (ie cement mixer, drills, crosscut etc).

It's a really good solution we're using and works for us very well. Just don't have larger loads on the system than it can handle (eg Freezer, twin tub washing machine etc) and be conscious of what we are using when.
The bar fridge is yet to stop working so everything is fine. :P

Oh and a handy hint for anyone who is interested, keep am upright fridge full, that way when you open the door the cold air doesn't escape and you use less power.
That's my excuse anyway and I'm sticking to it!
-- Pan

[Hazel]

Cjay

await your update with keen interest...