A New Insight

[Kiforall]

Would anyone forgive the Elite before they disappear down their rabbit holes?

Can we prevent an underworld disaster?

Does anyone even want to begin to think how horrendous life in these military, survival bases for the chosen millions, is going to be?

Has humanity still got enough decency left after thousands of years of physical and mental torture to show compassion to the deluded descendants of evil?

Just wondering...........................................................................?:angel:

[RMorgan]

Hey mate,

No way. A word is a contract and I´ll not make any deal with people I despise.

I´m not Jesus, you know. I wont forgive people who may very well murder me one of these days.

Besides, none of them asked for my forgiveness.

Raf.

[Fred Steeves]

Has humanity still got enough decency left after thousands of years of physical and mental torture to show compassion to the deluded descendants of evil?

Of course...

19467

The main question is, can we forgive ourselves? That's the real kicker.

[Kiforall]

Has humanity still got enough decency left after thousands of years of physical and mental torture to show compassion to the deluded descendants of evil?

Of course...

19467

The main question is, can we forgive ourselves? That's the real kicker.

I believe anyone that can't should start to find a way :sorry:

[TamaraS]

Yes, We all have it in us to forgive and move on. Not forget just forgive as we hurt ourselves more when we do not forgive.

Something to think about.

[DeDukshyn]

Hey mate,

No way. A word is a contract and I´ll not make any deal with people I despise.

I´m not Jesus, you know. I wont forgive people who may very well murder me one of these days.

Besides, none of them asked for my forgiveness.

Raf.

If they did?

[RunningDeer]

Based on past life experiences, I'd say yes I can and yes I will. Though, those scenarios listed aren't in my upcoming timeline.

[Wind]

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".

[Kiforall]

Yes, We all have it in us to forgive and move on. Not forget just forgive as we hurt ourselves more when we do not forgive.

Something to think about.

I try to understand that what is in the past is in the past

Unless there was a way to go back and change events, I know of none yet, we need to accept what has been done.

Our only way of growing as a purer being, with compassion, is to learn from our mistakes.

A long time ago we allowed an evil side of us to retreat, to hide away, we didn't understand at the time that we would suffer due to this freedom we bestowed onto our brothers and sisters.

The lesson to be learn't is that we are all One, just as our being is all One, although you may not know yourself yet, yourself knows you.

I forgave myself by understanding why I did things.

Believing that if there hadn't been a reason for doing it when the time was now, I would not have done it.

In that way everything I have done has been for a reason and I must trust my higher self to know what is right, if I can't trust myself who can I trust?

What if everything that had happened in life had been done to bring us together?

I try to look at it both as a single person (me coming together with myself and humanity both good and evil coming together) by doing this I can forgive All.

Zoe x

[Kiforall]

Based on past life experiences, I'd say yes I can and yes I will. Though, those scenarios listed aren't in my upcoming timeline.

Aren't we about to change our timeline? Is the date not Dec 21st 2012?

Or is that only if we learn to love each other, meaning self as well.

In that case I understand ;)

We're all DOOMED :behindsofa: I'm definitely bringing in my tomato plants :ohwell:

No, only joking.....................I'm not giving up on humanity................................yet.

Zoe x

[modwiz]

I forgive the mosquito for biting me and I forgive myself for killing it. There is no joy in killing it. A world without mosquitoes, and other bloodsucking critters would be a better place. The mosquitoes are symbols, IMO. Like leeches and ticks. Leeches do have uses though. I'm sure the elite my have uses. They will just have to be kept in containers until needed. Or allowed to be in the wild, but fair game if caught helping themselves.

There are layers of misunderstanding here. Symbolism, cause and effect. What does the collective outer world reflect about the collective inner world? What does our private outer world reflect about our personal inner one?

Bottom line, forgiveness is always required. It is a secret to freedom. A major stumbling block for many and often conflated with conflicting issues.

I forgive them and I forgive myself for seeing them for what they are. Redemption is always possible. Shifting DNA takes intention, desire and perseverance. They have deep morphogenetic fields that they are part of. This issue can run deep. Fortunately, forgiveness does not take great intellect. Just an investment for the best outcome for all. Forgiveness is the ultimate win/win scenario.

[RunningDeer]

Now more than ever, I'm awakening to dark ones that hold up strong mirrors both for the light and dark within myself. Still some left to clear out, but not as bad as I once thought. (ugh! judgement & perfection)

Is it possible that in darkness, light shines? This evening it seems so. Though, tomorrow, I may ask, "Why the heck did you post this?"

[DeDukshyn]

I forgive the mosquito for biting me and I forgive myself for killing it. There is no joy in killing it. A world without mosquitoes, and other bloodsucking critters would be a better place. The mosquitoes are symbols, IMO. Like leeches and ticks. Leeches do have uses though. I'm sure the elite my have uses. They will just have to be kept in containers until needed. Or allowed to be in the wild, but fair game if caught helping themselves.

There are layers of misunderstanding here. Symbolism, cause and effect. What does the collective outer world reflect about the collective inner world? What does our private outer world reflect about our personal inner one?

Bottom line, forgiveness is always required. It is a secret to freedom. A major stumbling block for many and often conflated with conflicting issues.

I forgive them and I forgive myself for seeing them for what they are. Redemption is always possible. Shifting DNA takes intention, desire and perseverance. They have deep morphogenetic fields that they are part of. This issue can run deep. Fortunately, forgiveness does not take great intellect. Just an investment for the best outcome for all. Forgiveness is the ultimate win/win scenario.

Perfect aim and well setup s9ights tonight! ... oh wait .. where'd that 9 come from ... ;)

[RMorgan]

Hey mate,

No way. A word is a contract and I´ll not make any deal with people I despise.

I´m not Jesus, you know. I wont forgive people who may very well murder me one of these days.

Besides, none of them asked for my forgiveness.

Raf.

If they did?

Hey mate,

Well, if they did, I would forgive them, but only if they agree to publicly confess their crimes and submit themselves to the judgment of an international court of law.

Raf.

[RunningDeer]

Based on past life experiences, I'd say yes I can and yes I will. Though, those scenarios listed aren't in my upcoming timeline.

Aren't we about to change our timeline? Is the date not Dec 21st 2012?

Or is that only if we learn to love each other, meaning self as well.

In that case I understand ;)

We're all DOOMED :behindsofa: I'm definitely bringing in my tomato plants :ohwell:

No, only joking.....................I'm not giving up on humanity................................yet.

Zoe x


We're all DOOMED.

We're all DOOMED? We = "We" minus "WhiteCrowBlackDeer"

Doomed is another way of saying I get to do another firewalk. I should change my power animal to the Phoenix.

I don't have tomato plants to bring, I'll stick with my Ben & Jerry's. http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif



No, only joking.....................I'm not giving up on humanity................................yet.

I agree. I don't see that in you either.

[DeDukshyn]

Hey mate,

No way. A word is a contract and I´ll not make any deal with people I despise.

I´m not Jesus, you know. I wont forgive people who may very well murder me one of these days.

Besides, none of them asked for my forgiveness.

Raf.

If they did?

Hey mate,

Well, if they did, I would forgive them, but only if they agreed to public confess their crimes and submit themselves the judgment of an international court of law.

Raf.

Thanks for that Raf .. I like your honesty. But isn't that the same answer they might give in a similar but different "shootout"? What do you feel it is that truly separates us from them?

I like to think in this regards, that I can exercise unconditional love --- this makes me different from them. This includes instant forgiveness as well. I also see that as a strength they cannot carry. Of course my 2 cents with Love ;) Just a thought ... ;)

[Kiforall]

Now more than ever, I'm awakening to dark ones that hold up strong mirrors both for the light and dark within myself. Still some left to clear out, but not as bad as I once thought. (ugh! judgement & perfection)

Is it possible that in darkness, light shines? This evening it seems so. Though, tomorrow, I may ask, "Why the heck did you post this?"

When that time comes that you question it remember you believed it at the time.

There was a reason NOW that you believed it THEN because it was truly in the NOW.

You didn't get chance to question it, your Heart told you.

Now tomorrow if you question it, and I did many a time.

Just forgive yourself for doubting and know that the next thing will almost certainly removed the last doubt or it will claify it for you, however you need it. You know yourself better than anyone. So don't worry about the steps up to it, I feel it's humility.;)

Well that's how it seems to be happening with me. Presuming I'm not the only one.
It's all about trusting your heart. It was always described as a gut instinct............feels a bit s*** to me compared to pure heart instinct.

Zoe x

[Kiforall]

Hey mate,

No way. A word is a contract and I´ll not make any deal with people I despise.

I´m not Jesus, you know. I wont forgive people who may very well murder me one of these days.


























































































































































































Besides, none of them asked for my forgiveness.

Raf.

If they did?

Hey mate,

Well, if they did, I would forgive them, but only if they agree to publicly confess their crimes and submit themselves to the judgment of an international court of law.

Raf.

Would that be possible for the numbers we are talking about?

Zoe x

[markpierre]

Once you understand the role they play in your awakening, yes of course. The mind that passes through and out of the paradigm of suffering and separate selves
can't maintain a grievance. There is no more 'life or death' dilemma, when there is no such thing as death.
Consider this; they stay what they consider 'alive', by controlling an illusion of life and death. Imagine the quality of the world they've designed for themselves.
Trapped in it until they let it go. You don't defy the laws of reality and get away with anything.
I pity that mind.
.

[Youniverse]

From where I stand there is nothing to forgive. Evolution is not a sin, nor is it wrong. In becoming more like All That Is we can begin to more fully understand what Jesus meant when he said "forgive them, they know not what they do." Yes forgiveness is divine and great for one's personal sense of peace and well-being. But we can move past that and come to the conclusion that ignorance of a higher truth is in itself not a sin. Yes we make choices both conscious and unconsciously that create who we are, but that free will was given to us for a purpose, and if we were expected to always make the right choice or else, we would never have been given the ability to make the wrong choice. I still forgive when it makes me or someone else feel better, but it is not necessary in my opinion. Evolution will push us all past this need to forgive or be forgived, and there will be no more Cabal or whatever as that structure gets swept into the dustbin of the history of humanity.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Once you understand the role they play in your awakening, yes of course. The mind that passes through and out of the paradigm of suffering and separate selves
can't maintain a grievance. There is no more 'life or death' dilemma, when there is no such thing as death.
Consider this; they stay what they consider 'alive', by controlling an illusion of life and death. Imagine the quality of the world they've designed for themselves.
Trapped in it until they let it go. You don't defy the laws of reality and get away with anything.
I pity that mind.
.

I pity that mind too.

[The23rdman]

There is nothing to forgive. See through the illusion of separation and they need to create enemies and forgiveness is not necessary. Be assured that TPTB are only as powerful as our individual sense of helplessness and anger allows them to be.

[Grumpy Cat]

I have no fear (or very little) anymore so if any of them came to me (and I think a couple have, in retrospect) I would forgive them. They're only pawns in the grand circle of life.

I'm certainly not angry towards them, that's for sure.

[RMorgan]

Forgiveness by itself, out of context, is nothing.

You see, the act of forgiving can reflect either selfishness or solidarity; Some people forgive only to feel better about themselves, to feel superior, to create a false feeling of enlightenment. Other people forgive to make others feel better, without any selfish purpose.

If every one forgives these bastards while they haven´t even asked for forgiveness, how could we change the current world scenario?

Do you think that these arrogant bastards care about your forgiveness? Really? Do you think that psychopaths see any value in forgiveness? Do you think they would somehow regret of their evil deeds after your forgiveness?

Jesus supposedly had forgiven us before his death. Did it change anything?

Right now, people need to protest, to revolt, to act. Otherwise, things will never change.

Sitting on your couch, forgiving everyone, while they blow up the whole world wont change anything.

Besides, it´s very easy to forgive when you´re sleeping in a cozy bed on the comforts of your pretty homes...I suspect all of you haven´t felt the direct consequences of these bastard´s actions; yet.

I´d like to see where your forgiveness would go if they had bombed your whole country, killed your family with drones, destroyed your schools, hospitals, water treatment stations and burned your farms.

For you, forgiving them is just like forgiving the man who has raped and murdered someone else´s daughter. It´s easy; it hasn´t happened to you...Ask him if he would truly forgive the man; If he would, then his forgiveness has true value.

Honestly, I´d like to see you forgiving them when you and your family are living like rats in those FEMA concentration camps...

Put yourselves in the position of a honest family man who was living a happy life in Iraq, Afghanistan or any other war zone; A man who´s lost everything, with no real perspective of ever being happy again...Then, honestly, tell me; Would you forgive them?

Saying you forgive them from your position is the same as saying you forgive your dog for ****ting in someone else´s front yard. It´s cute, but meaningless; it doesn´t change anything.

[Ki's]

Forgiveness by itself, out of context, is nothing.

You see, the act of forgiving can reflect either selfishness or solidarity; Some people forgive only to feel better about themselves, to feel superior, to create a false feeling of enlightenment. Other people forgive to make others feel better, without any selfish purpose.

If every one forgives these bastards while they haven´t even asked for forgiveness, how could we change the current world scenario?

Do you think that these arrogant bastards care about your forgiveness? Really? Do you think that psychopaths see any value in forgiveness? Do you think they would somehow regret of their evil deeds after your forgiveness?

Jesus supposedly had forgiven us before his death. Did it change anything?

Right now, people need to protest, to revolt, to act. Otherwise, things will never change.

Sitting on your couch, forgiving everyone, while they blow up the whole world wont change anything.

Besides, it´s very easy to forgive when you´re sleeping in a cozy bed on the comforts of your pretty homes...I suspect all of you haven´t felt the direct consequences of these bastard´s actions; yet.

I´d like to see where your forgiveness would go if they had bombed your whole country, killed your family with drones, destroyed your schools, hospitals, water treatment stations and burned your farms.

For you, forgiving them is just like forgiving the man who has raped and murdered someone else´s daughter. It´s easy; it hasn´t happened to you...Ask him if he would truly forgive the man; If he would, then his forgiveness has true value.

Honestly, I´d like to see you forgiving them when you and your family are living like rats in those FEMA concentration camps...

Put yourselves in the position of a honest family man who was living a happy life in Iraq, Afghanistan or any other war zone; A man who´s lost everything, with no real perspective of ever being happy again...Then, honestly, tell me; Would you forgive them?

Saying you forgive them from your position is the same as saying you forgive your dog for ****ting in the carpet. It´s cute, but meaningless.


The act of forgiveness is {primarily} for your benefit...not theirs. Although in a larger sense, it does ultimately benefit the entire creation.
When you cling to a grievance, you are reinforcing a 'victim-hood' for yourself and trapping yourself into a lower vibrational level. That empowers them.
Forgiveness and loving the unlovable is a metaphysical, magical creative act. It's the game changer.

[Kiforall]

Forgiveness by itself, out of context, is nothing.

You see, the act of forgiving can reflect either selfishness or solidarity; Some people forgive only to feel better about themselves, to feel superior, to create a false feeling of enlightenment. Other people forgive to make others feel better, without any selfish purpose.

I agree, for me there IS only one type of forgiveness that clears all emotional negativity both for myself and others. If I thought of the person I was forgiving and still felt negativity towards them I'd have to work harder to empathise with them.


If every one forgives these bastards while they haven´t even asked for forgiveness, how could we change the current world scenario?

They don't need to ask me for forgiveness, actions speak louder than words. But I'm sure there are plenty of them too proud to accept their ways are not working anymore. Those will have to face life undergound or face the wrath, maybe.


Do you think that these arrogant bastards care about your forgiveness? Really? Do you think that psychopaths see any value in forgiveness? Do you think they would somehow regret of their evil deeds after your forgiveness?

That would be their choice, all I wanted to get across to them was that there might be another way than the road they seem to be going down.


Right now, people need to protest, to revolt, to act. Otherwise, things will never change.

Couldn't agree more but with all the hatred towards them I don't believe a peaceful revolution would be possible, violence would just play into their hands.


Besides, it´s very easy to forgive when you´re sleeping in a cozy bed on the comforts of your pretty homes...I suspect all of you haven´t felt the direct consequences of these bastard´s actions; yet.

I´d like to see where your forgiveness would go if they had bombed your whole country, killed your family with drones, destroyed your schools, hospitals, water treatment stations and burned your farms.

Have we not all experienced pain at the hands of these people?
I feel the anguish for each and every being affected by their manipulation including the planet.



For you, forgiving them is just like forgiving the man who has raped and murdered someone else´s daughter. It´s easy; it hasn´t happened to you...Ask him if he would truly forgive the man; If he would, then his forgiveness has true value.

Honestly, I´d like to see you forgiving them when you and your family are living like rats in those FEMA concentration camps...

Put yourselves in the position of a honest family man who was living a happy life in Iraq, Afghanistan or any other war zone; A man who´s lost everything, with no real perspective of ever being happy again...Then, honestly, tell me; Would you forgive them?

Plenty of people do, you seem to underestimate what the people of Avalon have actually witnessed and experienced at the hands of these people.


Saying you forgive them from your position is the same as saying you forgive your dog for ****ting in someone else´s front yard. It´s cute, but meaningless; it doesn´t change anything.

It's happened, I went next door, apologized and picked the S*** up. No worries ;)
Oh, and we are still talking.

Wey Hey, I've done that fancy quotey thingy :clap2:

Zoe x

[Youniverse]

Forgiveness by itself, out of context, is nothing.

You see, the act of forgiving can reflect either selfishness or solidarity; Some people forgive only to feel better about themselves, to feel superior, to create a false feeling of enlightenment. Other people forgive to make others feel better, without any selfish purpose.

If every one forgives these bastards while they haven´t even asked for forgiveness, how could we change the current world scenario?

Do you think that these arrogant bastards care about your forgiveness? Really? Do you think that psychopaths see any value in forgiveness? Do you think they would somehow regret of their evil deeds after your forgiveness?

Jesus supposedly had forgiven us before his death. Did it change anything?

Right now, people need to protest, to revolt, to act. Otherwise, things will never change.

Sitting on your couch, forgiving everyone, while they blow up the whole world wont change anything.

Besides, it´s very easy to forgive when you´re sleeping in a cozy bed on the comforts of your pretty homes...I suspect all of you haven´t felt the direct consequences of these bastard´s actions; yet.

I´d like to see where your forgiveness would go if they had bombed your whole country, killed your family with drones, destroyed your schools, hospitals, water treatment stations and burned your farms.

For you, forgiving them is just like forgiving the man who has raped and murdered someone else´s daughter. It´s easy; it hasn´t happened to you...Ask him if he would truly forgive the man; If he would, then his forgiveness has true value.

Honestly, I´d like to see you forgiving them when you and your family are living like rats in those FEMA concentration camps...

Put yourselves in the position of a honest family man who was living a happy life in Iraq, Afghanistan or any other war zone; A man who´s lost everything, with no real perspective of ever being happy again...Then, honestly, tell me; Would you forgive them?

Saying you forgive them from your position is the same as saying you forgive your dog for ****ting in someone else´s front yard. It´s cute, but meaningless; it doesn´t change anything.

Yes I see what you're saying and there is some truth there. When forgiveness is genuine it holds great power. I am not downplaying its importance at all. We have to remember that we are not always aware of the effects of our forgiveness, especially on an esoteric or energy-based level. Heal yourself and you heal humanity. This can appear selfish at first, but when we look closer and deeper we remember we are all one and the peace we bring to ourselves affects all of humanity. It's like a shockwave sent out to all creation. I recently listened to a quantum physicist speak about waves of energy and how our thoughts essentially are this. The "good vibes' created by one's forgiveness touch everyone whether they are consciously aware of it or not. So this is not a waste of time to forgive. My point earlier was this, we can even move beyond forgiveness to a deeper place where forgiveness is understood as being unnecessary. We all think, speak, and act from our current level of awareness and we all believe we are justified in doing so based on this level of awareness. Even Hitler(overused historical character I know) believed what he was doing was "right." This is where the spiritual masters are directing us, to a place of understanding where there is nothing to forgive, there is only earnest intention to transform oneself and thus transform the world to a higher state of consciousness, all the while honouring those we would call enemies. We can honour them and at the same time seek to change everything they stand for.

[RMorgan]

Zoe (Kiforall),

You may pretend, try to convince yourself as much as you want that you can feel the pain of the direct victims of their evil, but you can´t.

Probably, none of us have no idea about how is it like to lose all perspective of happiness. To lose everything you once loved; Everything that was an essential part of your life.

What we, from western countries, have been suffering because of them is nothing but a shadow of the real suffering they are causing on the other side of the world.

Like any crime, the only part that has true authority to forgive is the direct victim.

Even I, living in a country that has been literally raped by them since colonization, haven´t experienced the real consequences of their evil.

Raf.

[Youniverse]

I am always moved, sometimes to tears, when I hear stories about individuals who sincerely and publicly forgive those that have committed grievous harm to them or those they love. It's the sort of message put forth in the book "The Shack." A good read! Now that's true power! Not having a gazillion dollars and calling all the shots in the material world at any given moment, that's weakness masqerading as power. The parent that forgives the individual that raped and murdered their child has touched the face of God and reflected it back to the perpetrator of the crime. Another example are those Amish people that so resiliently forgave the attacker that shot and killed several of their loved ones. These acts make no sense, are beyond logic, and into the realm of the divine.

[Youniverse]

Zoe (Kiforall),

You may pretend, try to convince yourself as much as you want that you can feel the pain of the direct victims of their evil, but you can´t.

Probably, none of us have no idea about how is it like to lose all perspective of happiness. To lose everything you once loved; Everything that was an essential part of your life.

What we, from western countries, have been suffering because of them is nothing but a shadow of the real suffering they are causing on the other side of the world.

Like any crime, the only part that has true authority to forgive is the direct victim.

Raf.

You are right again on one level. I cannot say I completely empathize with those who have suffered in ways I have not personally experienced. However, I feel you are underestimating the the ablity of certain individuals to place themselves in those peoples' shoes and reflect on how they would feel. Basic desires and interests common to all humanity can also be reflected on at the same time. I know for a fact that this feeling of compassion for those that have suffered the most is a large part of what motivates me to transform this world. For them as much as for I and all of you.

[Kiforall]

Zoe (Kiforall),

You may pretend, try to convince yourself as much as you want that you can feel the pain of the direct victims of their evil, but you can´t.

Probably, none of us have no idea about how is it like to lose all perspective of happiness. To lose everything you once loved; Everything that was an essential part of your life.

What we, from western countries, have been suffering because of them is nothing but a shadow of the real suffering they are causing on the other side of the world.

Like any crime, the only part that has true authority to forgive is the direct victim.

Even I, living in a country that has been literally raped by them since colonization, haven´t experienced the real consequences of their evil.

Raf.

I can only speak for myself as only I know how I feel ( N.B. I am not pretending :nono:)

Your response seems to claim that you know how I feel, which you can't or else you would understand.

I can no longer justify having hatred towards these people, it doesn't help me or anyone else to carry the pain any more.

It is gone, bye bye, does not effect me anymore, not in a negative, eating away at me type of thing.

I am here to learn from my own and everyone elses mistakes.

I thank everyone that has suffered, including myself.

I don't try to compare my own suffering as to whether I hurt more than anyone else or visa/versa the outcome is the same, it gets us to where we are meant to be at this moment in time.

If someone still holds onto the pain there are deeper issues afoot.

That's just where I am Now.

Zoe x

[RMorgan]

I can only speak for myself as only I know how I feel ( N.B. I am not pretending :nono:)

Your response seems to claim that you know how I feel, which you can't or else you would understand.
Zoe x

Hey Zoe,

Exactly; You can only speak for yourself, you can only feel for yourself. You´re the only one who knows how you feel, just like every one else.

I´m not claiming I know how you feel, by the way. I´m claiming exact the contrary.


I feel the anguish for each and every being affected by their manipulation including the planet.

You´re the one claiming to know how others feel, by claiming you can feel their anguish. Then you fell in contradiction, saying you´re the only one who knows how you feel.

If others can´t possibly feel what you feel, because you´re the only one who can, then you can´t possibly feel what others feel as well.

If you can only feel for yourself, speak for yourself, you have no authority to forgive someone for what they have done to others, because you can´t speak in the name of other people without their consent.

Raf.

[Tony]

Natural Justice and Injustice.

Natural law.

If we do a wrong, we have to put it right, and we learn something.
If we do that same wrong again, then we have not learnt anything.
If we do that same wrong once more, it becomes a habit.
If we keep on doing that wrong, it becomes a personality.

Any action, depending on how deeply rooted it is, will acquire that amount of karma.
Karma is an imprint, a habitual filter we hold in our minds: this is due to the causes and conditions in which we find ourselves. Undoing the karmic effect, is a debt we have to repay. It is a universal law of rebalance. That is why we are here.

It is not a punishment. It is the very same tool we use to cut through those imprints obscuring the mind. These obscurations obscure our pure awareness. All we have to do is, not react and reset our minds into clarity!

Therefore ,not reacting cuts through our habitual patterning. That is the path of purification.
In every moment the mind brings up a reaction from the past: that is our habit. If we react in the same old way, we merely deepen that karma. If we do not react, no karma is created! Over time and with understanding practice, karma is exhausted.

This sounds easy enough, but you only have to observe your reactions to see your karma in action!

This is justice at its highest level...it just is.
If we hold onto pride we will constantly get a reaction from others, which will make us feel we have to defend ourselves, which in turn, merely perpetuates our pride...it's a sort of a revenge duel!

Through causes and conditions of past action (karma) we choose where we live and who we live with (family), and that family (through their karma) chooses to live in a certain area. And so, a collective karma develops. We get tainted. Very near where I live, people drink a lot of cola and whisky, smoke, have grey wrinkled complexions, satellite dishes, very large TVs, and look very unhealthy and guilty... It's not a punishment, but rather an unconscious choice.

In contract, there are other nearby areas where they wear green wellie boots, drive Range Rovers, shoot, eat enlarged ducks liver and do something very peculiar with their vowels. They also believe they are superior...that is a conscious choice. They too group together, collecting karma.

Karma, this natural law, happens to every individual, and group. Willing or not, we all play our part to some degree, and acquire that amount of karma (the effect of a cause).

Natural Law in a community = we pay for what we damage, and this creates good will and trust, and we collect no karma.

However, as we can see, power corrupts. We see police who should be peace keepers, becoming enforcers with zero tolerance, creating brutality. Prisons are used as cheap labour. We no longer trust, politicians, lawyers, corporations, pharmaceutical companies, health authorities, food production, and this is why we are here now.

They bring so many new rules out that anyone can appear to break the law(?). So 'they' now use commercial maritime law to make money from the people with twisted words, and that is the Unjust Law.

The question being asked is, “What do we do about 'them' if we have the chance?”

Remember that they did wrong by secretly and consciously creating a tremendous amount of suffering for people and for such a long time, and thus acquired a huge amount of bad karma.
Are we sure that their hearts are clear and they will never do it again?
So just saying, “I forgive them” does sound a little wet.

However, we can forgive, but a price will still have to be paid...back to the universe. The bank balance has to add up. In fact our bank balance - and theirs - have to be totally depleted = exhausted karma.

So compassion is needed, otherwise we too will acquire some dirty karma. Even associating with those who have bad karma can rub off, so we have to be skilful.

It will take great deal of wisdom to answer this question, therefore firstly, we should find that wisdom!

Justice or judging is a complicated issue, and we are unconsciously or consciously engaged with this at every moment.





Tony

[The23rdman]

Natural Justice and Injustice.

Natural law.

If we do a wrong, we have to put it right, and we learn something.
If we do that same wrong again, then we have not learnt anything.
If we do that same wrong once more, it becomes a habit.
If we keep on doing that wrong, it becomes a personality.

Any action, depending on how deeply rooted it is, will acquire that amount of karma.
Karma is an imprint, a habitual filter we hold in our minds: this is due to the causes and conditions in which we find ourselves. Undoing the karmic effect, is a debt we have to repay. It is a universal law of rebalance. That is why we are here.

It is not a punishment. It is the very same tool we use to cut through those imprints obscuring the mind. These obscurations obscure our pure awareness. All we have to do is, not react and reset our minds into clarity!

Therefore ,not reacting cuts through our habitual patterning. That is the path of purification.
In every moment the mind brings up a reaction from the past: that is our habit. If we react in the same old way, we merely deepen that karma. If we do not react, no karma is created! Over time and with understanding practice, karma is exhausted.

This sounds easy enough, but you only have to observe your reactions to see your karma in action!

This is justice at its highest level...it just is.
If we hold onto pride we will constantly get a reaction from others, which will make us feel we have to defend ourselves, which in turn, merely perpetuates our pride...it's a sort of a revenge duel!

Through causes and conditions of past action (karma) we choose where we live and who we live with (family), and that family (through their karma) chooses to live in a certain area. And so, a collective karma develops. We get tainted. Very near where I live, people drink a lot of cola and whisky, smoke, have grey wrinkled complexions, satellite dishes, very large TVs, and look very unhealthy and guilty... It's not a punishment, but rather an unconscious choice.

In contract, there are other nearby areas where they wear green wellie boots, drive Range Rovers, shoot, eat enlarged ducks liver and do something very peculiar with their vowels. They also believe they are superior...that is a conscious choice. They too group together, collecting karma.

Karma, this natural law, happens to every individual, and group. Willing or not, we all play our part to some degree, and acquire that amount of karma (the effect of a cause).

Natural Law in a community = we pay for what we damage, and this creates good will and trust, and we collect no karma.

However, as we can see, power corrupts. We see police who should be peace keepers, becoming enforcers with zero tolerance, creating brutality. Prisons are used as cheap labour. We no longer trust, politicians, lawyers, corporations, pharmaceutical companies, health authorities, food production, and this is why we are here now.

They bring so many new rules out that anyone can appear to break the law(?). So 'they' now use commercial maritime law to make money from the people with twisted words, and that is the Unjust Law.

The question being asked is, “What do we do about 'them' if we have the chance?”

Remember that they did wrong by secretly and consciously creating a tremendous amount of suffering for people and for such a long time, and thus acquired a huge amount of bad karma.
Are we sure that their hearts are clear and they will never do it again?
So just saying, “I forgive them” does sound a little wet.

However, we can forgive, but a price will still have to be paid...back to the universe. The bank balance has to add up. In fact our bank balance - and theirs - have to be totally depleted = exhausted karma.

So compassion is needed, otherwise we too will acquire some dirty karma. Even associating with those who have bad karma can rub off, so we have to be skilful.

It will take great deal of wisdom to answer this question, therefore firstly, we should find that wisdom!

Justice or judging is a complicated issue, and we are unconsciously or consciously engaged with this at every moment.





Tony

Stop the wheel. :)

[Kiforall]

I can only speak for myself as only I know how I feel ( N.B. I am not pretending :nono:)

Your response seems to claim that you know how I feel, which you can't or else you would understand.
Zoe x

Hey Zoe,

Exactly; You can only speak for yourself, you can only feel for yourself. You´re the only one who knows how you feel, just like every one else.

I´m not claiming I know how you feel, by the way. I´m claiming exact the contrary.


I feel the anguish for each and every being affected by their manipulation including the planet.

You´re the one claiming to know how others feel, by claiming you can feel their anguish. Then you fell in contradiction, saying you´re the only one who knows how you feel.

If others can´t possibly feel what you feel, because you´re the only one who can, then you can´t possibly feel what others feel as well.

If you can only feel for yourself, speak for yourself, you have no authority to forgive someone for what they have done to others, because you can´t speak in the name of other people without their consent.

Raf.

I was presuming that you thought I was pretending to empathize with victims.

In that respect I wondered how you knew I'm the great pretender ?

I do believe I feel the anguish of other's, in a way that resonates on a deeper level. How else can I explain it.

When it's alive in me but not understandably my emotion what am I to describe it as?

When an emotion comes in from somewhere else and I get the understanding of where and why, I have to trust what I'm being told.

Is that where you're getting the feeling I'm pretending from?

If it comes from the heart then it must be true, if it comes from the head.........

Zoe x

[RMorgan]

Hey Zoe,

Please, don´t get me wrong. I´m not saying that you´re lying or deliberately pretending.

English isn´t my mother tongue, so I can´t truly express myself accurately. I´m sorry if I have offended you somehow.

All I´m saying is that feelings are very individual. Even if you have an extraordinary gift and can feel exactly what another person feels, you would never be able to be sure if what you´re feeling is accurate or if you´re actually emulating another person´s feeling.

You know, feelings are intangible; You can´t exactly compare, as an example, how love feels for one person from how love feels for another.

The important thing, anyway, is to try, at least try to put yourself in another person´s emotional state. I congratulate you for doing that, since it´s essential for living a happy live and making your loved ones happy as well.

Even a feeling, you know, like losing a parent, can´t be compared. You can say to a friend, during his father funeral, "I know how you feel", but it will never be accurate, because each one of us lives completely different lives, with completely different, singular and individual experiences, we have different characters and personalities, resulting in different individual concepts of feelings.

Raf.

[Tarka the Duck]

There's a practice known as Tong Len, which means "Exchanging Oneself for Others". It help to generate a feeling of compassion and loving kindness.

But…as a teacher I heard recently pointed out, if we are really honest, it's often more about us feeling good about our selves and our compassion and our loving kindness.

Would we really, truly, honestly, exchange our situation for that of another? We may have the genuine wish to, that wishful thinking could be all we are capable of at this moment (which is fine!) if it was actually physically possible, would we? Would we take on all that pain, all that suffering, in order to free them? That is what a true Bodhisattva is all about.

Kathie

[DeDukshyn]

There is nothing to forgive. See through the illusion of separation and they need to create enemies and forgiveness is not necessary. Be assured that TPTB are only as powerful as our individual sense of helplessness and anger allows them to be.

Excellent post and welcome to Avalon! ;)

Forgiveness is required only when sin is still being perceived and without also including self-forgiveness of that perception, that act of forgiveness is not quite complete ... God never forgives -- because we are perfect, having an "imperfect" experience, where the goal is to make us realize once again that we indeed are perfect, if we stop creating and focusing on "labels" of imperfection.

My 2 cents ;)

[Youniverse]

There is nothing to forgive. See through the illusion of separation and they need to create enemies and forgiveness is not necessary. Be assured that TPTB are only as powerful as our individual sense of helplessness and anger allows them to be.

Excellent post and welcome to Avalon! ;)

Forgiveness is required only when sin is still being perceived and without also including self-forgiveness of that perception, that act of forgiveness is not quite complete ... God never forgives -- because we are perfect, having an "imperfect" experience, where the goal is to make us realize once again that we indeed are perfect, if we stop creating and focusing on "labels" of imperfection.

My 2 cents ;)

Excellent! I would add to that that God does not judge us either. We judge each other in this realm of duality, but as you put so well, we are essentially perfect beings so what is there to forgive. Ignorance of truth is not a sin.

[applecrusher1992]

You have to forgive. I can say yes to all these answers. Our ability to forgive will help us bring a even greater love to humanity then the one we already have. :)

[write4change]

Has humanity still got enough decency left after thousands of years of physical and mental torture to show compassion to the deluded descendants of evil?

Of course...

19467

The main question is, can we forgive ourselves? That's the real kicker.

Yes, I got that at my divorce at 26 after seven years of marriage. The first two years after I was pissed at him and then I spent the next two years being pissed at me for allowing myself to be in that position.

Then I got on with becoming the person I wanted to marry and when I was ready he appeared ten years later. A great mind meld marriage for 18 years until he died. His great gift to me was allowing me to buy any and all books I wanted and the time to read them. I am still apreciating it.

[Tony]

The police should upholders of the peace,they should be people we can put our trust in.....and we now have this!
Q. Who guards the guard? A. ?


9-DcYbbep6o

[The23rdman]

There is nothing to forgive. See through the illusion of separation and they need to create enemies and forgiveness is not necessary. Be assured that TPTB are only as powerful as our individual sense of helplessness and anger allows them to be.

Excellent post and welcome to Avalon! ;)

Forgiveness is required only when sin is still being perceived and without also including self-forgiveness of that perception, that act of forgiveness is not quite complete ... God never forgives -- because we are perfect, having an "imperfect" experience, where the goal is to make us realize once again that we indeed are perfect, if we stop creating and focusing on "labels" of imperfection.

My 2 cents ;)

Thank you for the welcome. :) Yes, sin needs duality in order to exist. We can, of course, see that there are events and actions we would like to change in the world, but you do not do that by fighting and hating, but by loving and accepting. It is not a wimps way out (see Ghandi) but instead utilises the truth about Youniverse - love is the most powerful force.




Excellent! I would add to that that God does not judge us either. We judge each other in this realm of duality, but as you put so well, we are essentially perfect beings so what is there to forgive. Ignorance of truth is not a sin.

Yes. I would go further and say God does not judge us because, as far as I can see and experience God has no anthropomorphic characteristics at all. The canvas does not see the painting let alone judge it.

[markpierre]

Yes. I would go further and say God does not judge us because, as far as I can see and experience God has no anthropomorphic characteristics at all.
The canvas does not see the painting let alone judge it.

The conscious field that is 'God' has all of your attributes. Where did you think all your attributes come from? You can give it personality, because you have personality.
The canvas knows the painting. The painting sees the wrong picture.

It's just that there's a fairly obvious difference between judging with correction or vengeance, and judging with love. I judge you perfect. I judge you worthy. I judge you innocent.
I judge you an ineffable part of me.
Judgement is only a problem for guilty minds.

[The23rdman]

Yes. I would go further and say God does not judge us because, as far as I can see and experience God has no anthropomorphic characteristics at all.
The canvas does not see the painting let alone judge it.

The conscious field that is 'God' has all of your attributes. Where did you think all your attributes come from? You can give it personality, because you have personality.
The canvas knows the painting. The painting sees the wrong picture.

It's just that there's a fairly obvious difference between judging with correction or vengeance, and judging with love. I judge you perfect. I judge you worthy. I judge you innocent.
I judge you an ineffable part of me.
Judgement is only a problem for guilty minds.

Well, I'll humbly disagree with you on this one, which is all good. The problem with using terms like "judgement" and "god" is they mean something different for most everyone. The semantic traps of language... The bottom line is neither of us really knows what's going on around here. ;)

[markpierre]

Yes. I would go further and say God does not judge us because, as far as I can see and experience God has no anthropomorphic characteristics at all.
The canvas does not see the painting let alone judge it.

The conscious field that is 'God' has all of your attributes. Where did you think all your attributes come from? You can give it personality, because you have personality.
The canvas knows the painting. The painting sees the wrong picture.

It's just that there's a fairly obvious difference between judging with correction or vengeance, and judging with love. I judge you perfect. I judge you worthy. I judge you innocent.
I judge you an ineffable part of me.
Judgement is only a problem for guilty minds.

Well, I'll humbly disagree with you on this one, which is all good. The problem with using terms like "judgement" and "god" is they mean something different for most everyone. The semantic traps of language... The bottom line is neither of us really knows what's going on around here. ;)

Lets help them take the judgement from those errors of semantics. It's not an issue of the meaning of a word, it's an issue of the experience that it's distorting.
If judgement means 'punishment', and God means 'authority', what use has any word?
The bottom line is that some of us do know what's going on. Everyone knows what going on in them now.

[The23rdman]

Yes. I would go further and say God does not judge us because, as far as I can see and experience God has no anthropomorphic characteristics at all.
The canvas does not see the painting let alone judge it.

The conscious field that is 'God' has all of your attributes. Where did you think all your attributes come from? You can give it personality, because you have personality.
The canvas knows the painting. The painting sees the wrong picture.

It's just that there's a fairly obvious difference between judging with correction or vengeance, and judging with love. I judge you perfect. I judge you worthy. I judge you innocent.
I judge you an ineffable part of me.
Judgement is only a problem for guilty minds.

Well, I'll humbly disagree with you on this one, which is all good. The problem with using terms like "judgement" and "god" is they mean something different for most everyone. The semantic traps of language... The bottom line is neither of us really knows what's going on around here. ;)

Lets help them take the judgement from those errors of semantics. It's not an issue of the meaning of a word, it's an issue of the experience that it's distorting.
If judgement means 'punishment', and God means 'authority', what use has any word?
The bottom line is that some of us do know what's going on. Everyone knows what going on in them now.

Again, I'll humbly disagree with you. If you think you have separated yourself from the illusion of duality and all its myriad 'things' and are beyond your own perceptions then you are almost definitely mistaken.

For what it is worth the point I made about semantics was important because those the word judgement and god do not mean the same to me. To me judgement means using a personal sense of self to classify something as more worthy or true than another equally arbitrary 'thing'. God simply mean the field in which all existence happens. There is no authority in Oneness.

[markpierre]

They mean what you say they do and you're stuck with that, and compelled by it. I'm not. When you fully understand, or even get a glimpse of that there is no such thing as 'agreement',
or a 'consensus' experience, you'll probably realize that everything that's happening is happening in you, and that you already know everything you need to know.
'Authority' is mistaken as an outside influence. You have authority. Authority is how things actually work, not the way we contrive that they do.
If you accepted that the water you drink and the air you breath is in a relationship with you, as much as, but also more than your awareness allows you to be in relationship with it,
you'd change your mind about what that relationship is. You might even experience it. You still get hydrated and oxygenated, but that's the least of it.
I say 'probably', because your experience depends on your acceptance of it, not the fact of it. Acceptance allows the experience.
'God' is a maligned term, because if it's placed outside of you it becomes a chronic condition, it becomes something to you that it is not. I don't care what terms you use.
If it's that way for everyone, well then it is. But that isn't true either, because it's not that way for me. I'm included in 'everyone'. If I have to be an example that breaks that conditioning, well then I will.
I'll try hard not to misunderstand you by the terms you use, and that's my responsibility. I know what's happening in you, regardless of semantics.

But don't 'oneness' me, that's another semantic trap. Because I actually know what 'oneness' is.
If it means something different to everyone, then you'll have to consider that it is an individual responsibility. It doesn't matter what 'other people' think. Individual
understanding doesn't rely on agreement. No one will 'agree' if there's someone 'other' to agree with.

Or it's all just words, letters in combination that mean nothing at all. That's another useful viewpoint. Words will never convey experience.

[Youniverse]

When I say God does not judge us, I mean God does not reward us for doing what we perceive to be good, and punish us for doing what we perceive to be bad. What we decide to be good or bad changes over time and space, from culture to culture, even from town to town within a state. So it is "we" that judge in this world of duality in that sense of the term "judgement." Ok? So judgement as in, what a judge does in a courtroom. This has been the common conception and tradition of God for centuries, but I believe it is not accurate. God knows what serves us best at all times in our spiritual development, but is neutral on how we "get there." Though I do believe that God cares that we do indeed get there. But of course why would God worry as God knows we will all "make it" anyways. This is a no-fail process. I also agree that we are created in God's image(in certain ways), including our common personality traits like humour, compassion, etc. In a sense God is more human than we are. Course, God is All That Is, including the profound and the profane so it's pretty much impossible to put your finger on it isn't it? ha ha.

[norman]

Judgement is only a problem for guilty minds.




And there's a common guilty mind ( not surprisingly ) that throws up an anti judgment, anti discrimination, 'politically' hefty assault on intelligence itself.

[The23rdman]

They mean what you say they do and you're stuck with that, and compelled by it. I'm not. When you fully understand, or even get a glimpse of that there is no such thing as 'agreement',
or a 'consensus' experience, you'll probably realize that everything that's happening is happening in you, and that you already know everything you need to know.
'Authority' is mistaken as an outside influence. You have authority. Authority is how things actually work, not the way we contrive that they do.
If you accepted that the water you drink and the air you breath is in a relationship with you, as much as, but also more than your awareness allows you to be in relationship with it,
you'd change your mind about what that relationship is. You might even experience it. You still get hydrated and oxygenated, but that's the least of it.
I say 'probably', because your experience depends on your acceptance of it, not the fact of it. Acceptance allows the experience.
'God' is a maligned term, because if it's placed outside of you it becomes a chronic condition, it becomes something to you that it is not. I don't care what terms you use.
If it's that way for everyone, well then it is. But that isn't true either, because it's not that way for me. I'm included in 'everyone'.
I'll try hard not to misunderstand you by the terms you use. That's my responsibility. I know what's happening in you, regardless of semantics.
If I have to be an example that breaks that conditioning, well then I will. But don't 'oneness' me, that's another semantic trap. Because I actually know what 'oneness' is.
If it means something different to everyone, then you'll have to consider that it is an individual responsibility. It doesn't matter what 'other people' think. Individual
understanding doesn't rely on agreement. No one will 'agree' if there's someone 'other' to agree with.

Or it's all just words, letters in combination that mean nothing at all. That's another useful viewpoint. Words will never convey experience.

I think you must be either reading too much or not enough into my words because in actuality we seem to be in agreement on all the important points.

[markpierre]

I think you must be either reading too much or not enough into my words because in actuality we seem to be in agreement on all the important points.

Great. We can go home now.