Could You Do It?

[Fred Steeves]

One day during a nice deep meditation, you get an un-announced visitor, and he just happens to be one of the most evil and corrupt people to ever walk this planet. Not one of the ones we talk about a lot here and are occassionally on the news. No, this is one of the true ruling elite that lives deep in the shadows, come a calling for you in Spirit.

Face to face, you can "see" and "feel" every degenerate thing this being has ever done, right down to the nitty gritty of child sacrifice, dining on their flesh, and drinking their adrenaline filled blood. This being not only wants you to know all of this, but needs you to know, is compelled for you to know, to know it all.

Once you have finished "seeing" all what you were needed to "see", provided you were able to stomach it, you look into those deep, black, terrible eyes, and you see a whisp of something quite unexpected. You see the pure essence of what this man once was, so very long ago, before...Well, before some very poor choices had eventually turned this once beautiful and radiant child, into what now stands confessing before you.

And then you realize why this is happening, why is this man laying his soul bare for you to see it in all of it's gut wrenching detail? This is when he speaks mind to mind to you: "I can't take it any more, I just can't bare it...I've been so lost, for so long, that there was no longer anything left of who I once was, and then even the faint knowing that I had ever even been anything but what you now see before you was gone. It was all gone, forever... Until your light crossed my path. That's when I remembered, and also knew there was a way out. My only way out is, can you find it in your heart to forgive me?"

As tears begin to stream down his ancient and whithered face, would you be able to do it?

[Belle]

Yes...of course...absolutely...without hesitation.

[soleil]

to forgive, is to show love. and to show love and express love is what THEY cannot do.
when you are god, and your job is to love (in essence, forgive), what else do you do?

yes, i'll always choose to forgive (you).

[Star Tsar]

This visitor has been into some pretty heavy things so i'd need to be assured & re-assured of the consequences of this forgiveness.
Just to end the circle of suffering I'd like to think I would.

[RMorgan]

Hey Fred,

This thread is similar the another one from a few weeks ago.

Well, honestly, I would ask him to go and ask for the forgiveness of the families of the children he had murdered; Ask for the forgiveness of all direct victims of his horrible crimes.

I don´t have the authority to forgive him, because I can only speak for myself, not for the families of the murdered children. So, my forgiveness would be pretty much meaningless and wouldn´t make any significant enough difference to set him free from his misery.

In my opinion, this would be the same thing as forgiving a convicted murderer for killing someone else´s son. I could just say the words "I forgive you", but they would be empty, meaningless.

So I would just say - Sorry mate, really, but it´s not up to me to forgive you. Is there anything else within my reach that I could do to alleviate your suffering?

Raf.

[4evrneo]

We are all One, and yes I would forgive, no questions asked. Just like I have been forgiven for the many people I have hurt and was instantly forgiven just by asking.

Bless,
A

[Tony]

Love is tough, and challenging.

"That was in the past, but now you have to work in understanding the causes and effects of your actions. Together we shall exhaust that karma. Forgiving is too easy, and pointless, as the slate cannot be wiped clean so simply. However, you have taken the first step, by recognising suffering. But you have only recognised your own suffering! The more you recognise suffering, the more the love. No one can do this for you.

Have some tea."

[Spirithorse]

Yes, of course I could and I would.

It has long been my opinion that going down the path of 'evil' is an expression that this person has misunderstood something, misunderstood a cosmic law.
Or, on the other hand, one simply wants to find out how it feels to go down that route, to completely and utterly forget...

In a strange way, making such a choice always deemed kind of brave to me, as this person, when still in their true nature, must have known that eventually they will suffer.

Admitting being lost and sincere remorse is brave as well. This person realized they made a big mistake (or many big mistakes for a long time) and wants to get 'home'.
Basically, I can't understand how one could want to do terrible things to others or the planet, but also I can't understand why someone could reject a sincere plea for forgiveness.

Of course I can only speak for myself, from an empathetic human's point of view. Certain alien races might see this issue completely differently.

[westhill]

I'd forgive him mainly to help him understand the real lesson
in the end is to forgive himself.

[RUSirius]

Hey Fred,

This thread is similar the another one from a few weeks ago.

Well, honestly, I would ask him to go and ask for the forgiveness of the families of the children he had murdered; Ask for the forgiveness of all direct victims of his horrible crimes.

I don´t have the authority to forgive him, because I can only speak for myself, not for the families of the murdered children. So, my forgiveness would be pretty much meaningless and wouldn´t make any significant enough difference to set him free from his misery.

In my opinion, this would be the same thing as forgiving a convicted murderer for killing someone else´s son. I could just say the words "I forgive you", but they would be empty, meaningless.

So I would just say - Sorry mate, really, but it´s not up to me to forgive you. Is there anything else within my reach that I could do to alleviate your suffering?

Raf.

I agree completely, its much easier for me to forgive because the terrible things that have been done to so many humans, have not been done to me or my family. I can not forgive for others, but I would do what I could to encourage his "forgive me" process.

[SilentFeathers]

I'd probably call him a coward for coming to my home for forgiveness instead of one of his victims homes, knock him upside the head and drag him into my car and take him to one of his victims homes and toss him out in their front yard for them to decide if he was to be forgiven.

[Spiral]

I would show him what he has to do, the way out, that all who have done such things must do if they want to earn their way out rather than "pay" (the second death).

He has to go & reveal all of that, what he has realised he has become & lost in the process, to all those who still do such things.

Its called atonement.

[AriG]

I would tell him that forgiveness was not mine to give - that would be between he and whomever he had wronged. I sure would like to see this movie though. Seriously - write this screenplay. :)

[Ilie Pandia]

I've read Fred's questions more like: "Would you be able to see the divine essence even in the "darkest evil" as well as within yourself? Would you be able to drop judgement and simply be with that "evil" being as a presence or as witness?"

If that's the case then I'd have to say "No". I tend to be pretty judgmental and righteous :). Rage would be more likely my reaction...

[DeDukshyn]

One day during a nice deep meditation, you get an un-announced visitor, and he just happens to be one of the most evil and corrupt people to ever walk this planet. Not one of the ones we talk about a lot here and are occassionally on the news. No, this is one of the true ruling elite that lives deep in the shadows, come a calling for you in Spirit.

Face to face, you can "see" and "feel" every degenerate thing this being has ever done, right down to the nitty gritty of child sacrifice, dining on their flesh, and drinking their adrenaline filled blood. This being not only wants you to know all of this, but needs you to know, is compelled for you to know, to know it all.

Once you have finished "seeing" all what you were needed to "see", provided you were able to stomach it, you look into those deep, black, terrible eyes, and you see a whisp of something quite unexpected. You see the pure essence of what this man once was, so very long ago, before...Well, before some very poor choices had eventually turned this once beautiful and radiant child, into what now stands confessing before you.

And then you realize why this is happening, why is this man laying his soul bare for you to see it in all of it's gut wrenching detail? This is when he speaks mind to mind to you: "I can't take it any more, I just can't bare it...I've been so lost, for so long, that there was no longer anything left of who I once was, and then even the faint knowing that I had ever even been anything but what you now see before you was gone. It was all gone, forever... Until your light crossed my path. That's when I remembered, and also knew there was a way out. My only way out is, can you find it in your heart to forgive me?"

As tears begin to stream down his ancient and whithered face, would you be able to do it?

Already have a thousand times ... not only that, I had an actual similar experience to your story except one difference. It happened when I asked "What am I?" and the forgiveness I gave was actually for myself. We all are one ... ;)

[BrianEn]

Tough question. I'd wanna do the right thing, but forgiveness wouldn't be mine to give. I can forgive someone if they wronged me, but it must be real on their side. Forgiveness can be revoked if there is no change afterwards.

[SilentFeathers]

I'm totally surprised by some of the responses in this thread to how easily many would just forgive this creep and send him on his way, because he chopped up and ate someone else's child instead of their own child.......

My response in post #11 is most likely what I'd do on a good day to this scumbag.....

[Teti75]

The best answer is in your own heart...

[bodhii71]

I've known someone similar. Not the flesh eating , child killer, but someone very much in service to all that is corrupt. Self indulgent. drugs, homophobic, neo-nazi, hate filled, self loathing, instigated racial tensions, breaking up families, you get the idea.
I became acquainted with this person in my mid teens until early twenties. It seemed every person who came to know him, suffered from his works. Myself being no exception. And although my encounter was not physical, I still suffered by the lies he spread about me. Lies that have grown and festered for well over 20 years. It did much to harm my reputation as a human.
Long story short, he contacted me on Facebook requesting friendship which I declined. He still found a way to subscribe to my page, and made a few likes and comments. He made a few private messages, and finally I confronted him and acknowledged that I knew it was him who had ruined my reputation. I told him I forgave him but still wanted no part of his friendship, it seemed he hadn't made any changes in his life choices. He hasn't contacted me back.
This just transpired this past week, so the it is still fresh in my experience and has been a very painful life journey in this regard.

So this question seems to be posed at a most interesting moment for me. If someone is truly repentant, then I would whole heartily be willing and ready to forgive and the greatest of trespasses. But, I am not completely sure how one could navigate their road back to the supreme without much difficulty.
Perhaps that is what we are all doing here... learning these lessons of divine love and forgiveness.

[AriG]

I'm totally surprised by some of the responses in this thread to how easily many would just forgive this creep and send him on his way, because he chopped up and ate someone else's child instead of their own child.......

My response in post #11 is most likely what I'd do on a good day to this scumbag.....

Ok, here's a tough question that may be a little off topic, but maybe not..... Do you support capital punishment? It feels like the same argument, only in different dimensions.

[greybeard]

I could forgive.
In the OP forgiveness was asked for.
Forgiveness has nothing to do with condoning any act.
Jesus taught forgiveness without exception.

Nobody escapes the consequences of their actions---- The character presented in the opening post is not going to get away with it as such.
Call it Karma --Divine retribution any name you choose but sooner or later the perpetrator faces the consequences of his actions in full measure.
It is not down to me to be judge and executioner---thankfully I don't have to be.

Chris

[binemaya]

I think on our way to become the best we can be we will have to realize someday that we have been the worst too. that is the lesson here and this is how duality works. the hardest part is to forgive ourself. we are one. cheers! :p

[Anchor]

It seems to me that one of the basic principles of any system of duality must be that redemption is always possible. Without it, what has been separated cannot be rejoined into the one.

To my thinking, no matter how you dice it, finite, infinite, whatever density, this principle holds true, that redemption must be possible. Forgiveness, ultimately must be part of that since otherwise, the wheels of karma will keep turning.

In my case, I dont know the answer to the hypothetical situation in the OP as it is so extreme and outside my experience.

Would I have the right to offer forgiveness on behalf of my other-selves who have been wronged by this entity ? I am not sure what the answer is to that. Maybe if I was some fully supported head of my people and we all spoke with one mind I could. As an individual, I think not.

I would think that such a challenge would only be given the very strongest of us, and this would really not be about the one seeking redemption - but his opposite number, that is, in the one he seeks it from.

[Fred Steeves]

What a great discussion, and thank you for all of your thoughtful comments on this rather touchy subject. Personally speaking anyway, I don't really feel there is a right or a wrong answer, as every individual's answer would be correct for them. Please feel free to continue with your own, but here's the end scenario I had in mind, were I the meditator having this most unusual experience:

No sooner was the evil visitor forgiven, then with a gracious smile and a deep bow, he slowly dissolved into a disappearing mist, with these final words echoing softly behind in the stillness:

"Only once every few thousand lifetimes does this window open allowing us a brief moment with one another, and I have asked you the forgiveness question thousands of times. At long last you have relented, and chosen to forgive yourself for what others have long since forgiven you of. Welcome Home".

[Craig]

I am willing to go against the grain here, and say no and if I could I would wipe him from the planet. Oh don't get me wrong I would then not forgive myself and would torment over it, but I think I have reached that point where there can be no more forgiveness for sheer evil, sick of being a pawn in others power-plays, just wipe them all out. Seems like we die reincarnate and begin this jolly dance again anyway. I don't like sitting watching a beautiful sunset knowing that there are others who are being tortured for the pleasure of others. Perhaps rebooting him may change him, may not, but I couldn't just say Mate it's alright no worries, I would literally try and rip him to pieces, probably then set on a road to a dark place but if i can take more with me then more the better.

Higher level beings much higher than myself could probably forgive, but whilst I am stuck here I can't be the high and mighty that I should be, a failing on my part yes, but day to day I try and be the best that i can be and knock on wood I will never meet the evil mentioned in the OP. I just can't see why higher malevolent forces can play unhindered in the playbox of earth but the benevolent can't interfere cause it is against the law - it seems to be here is to be punished for previous crimes or something so perhaps this is our just desserts ultimately?

Jeez, what is it about flesh eating, blood drink demons that get me going? Probably picking up the frustrations of a million xmas shopping sheeple getting their material goods at the right price at the expense of others.

But no, no forgiveness from me. Perhaps if it was in my power I would hit him with all the fear that he has generated in others in one big strike that would just reduce him to atoms.

[RMorgan]

I didn´t like the end of the story Fred. :)

I´ve never killed anyone; I don´t even eat animals.

So, there´s no reason that I should ask for anyone forgiveness for taking someone´s life.

Forgiving him is totally different from forgiving myself for something I haven´t even done.

Even if you believe this "we´re all one" stuff, his karma is not my karma.

[Fred Steeves]

I didn´t like the end of the story Fred. :)


I knew you wouldn't Raf. http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif

[sirdipswitch]

Yes I forgave him, for I am one, with my HS/Source, and we did not hesitate. He will become a great asset, in helping to turn the rest.

Source is unconditional love, not bitterness and retribution.:wizard:

[SilentFeathers]

I'm totally surprised by some of the responses in this thread to how easily many would just forgive this creep and send him on his way, because he chopped up and ate someone else's child instead of their own child.......

My response in post #11 is most likely what I'd do on a good day to this scumbag.....

Ok, here's a tough question that may be a little off topic, but maybe not..... Do you support capital punishment? It feels like the same argument, only in different dimensions.

Yes I do, especially for child killers....I do not enjoy supporting it though.

[Arrowwind]

I would tell him that I would forgive him but he must also do pennance and restitution. He must actively work to change his ways though real works of giving and compassion. The forgiveness he needs is not from me but from those he damaged. Ultimately he must forgive himself.

[mahalall]

A pedophile of the most dangerous type recently died in my arms.

As my colleagues shouted abuse behind closed doors.
I could only shake my head-for they do not know how they harm themselves.

As the person life faded, his shadows become hungry and in tactile presence. You could feel their excited pleasure as they pulled in their man. You can see the situation in front of your eyes-and for the poor person-his fear but yet relieve!

It's sickening to see and sickening to feel.

When their body is dead, one ponders what to do for such a spirit being drawn down.

Shockingly, directed and expanded love just seemed to nourish it and make it laugh.

A detached Wisdom-pardoning through acceptance required with these ones!

[spiritguide]

I would explain to the evil one that it is not my place to forgive him for harming others. That the only thing that he would find with me is the acceptance to not be his judge. Forgiving evil does not transform it and for it to transform it must live with itself. Evil exists on many levels and it's beyond my pay grade because the extent of harm caused is unknown even by the perpetrator. Forgive evil, I think not, banish it, yes, at least on this plain of existence..

[Wookie]

forgive yes, forget no, Good Evil two sides of a coin, they are inseparable in a dualistic mind set. Good and Evil are but lessons to be learnt, and some souls have a hard time passing the test. So while I do believe I would forgive the evil son of a ^%@*$, I feel as if a one way ticket back to source would be a fitting prize for an evil sob finally learning a valuable lesson.

Peaceful Journeys Wookie

[bodhii71]

I think perhaps Fred ( among many of you ) has seen beyond the veil...LOL. I find it is ego/self/separation that hangs itself in perpetual torment. The moment that is released, both transgressed and transgressor are freed.

Fred just says it better.

[westhill]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadodaho
Haudenosaunee legend...
Deganawida brought the Great Law of Peace to the 5 Iroquois nations with the help of Hiawatha (who had been a cannibal).
The last one to be converted was the worst, Tadodaho. His body was twisted with evil and had snakes in his hair. His people
feared him as an evil sorcerer. Tadodaho has come to mean "spiritual leader." Quite a transformation.

I haven't faced the kind of evil (or individual) Fred describes, but I've freed myself by forgiving. This is something you can't fake.
Evil hates that!

[enfoldedblue]

Hi Fred, what a great and important thread.

My personal response would be that because he entered my reality I would recognize him as representing an aspect of of myself. As a fractal of the ALL I contain everything, therefore I contain both the most beautiful and the most horrific. I believe I would have to forgive him if I had any hope of healing and returning to wholeness. If I chose to reject him I would be perpetuating the state of separation, which makes it possible for one person to cause pain and suffering to another. By choosing to forgive him I would be doing my part to heal some of the horrific depraved energies on the planet.

I believe true healing cannot occur without forgiveness.

Of course my forgiveness would only be a tiny piece of the bigger equation.

[Lazlo]

I couldn't forgive myself if I extended him grace and then he reverted and caused another horrible death to someone.

Maybe he was placed in front of me so that I could deny forgiveness and exact vengeance? Perhaps this is the lesson he required.

A large caliber hollow point in the gut and leave him for the carrion eaters.

[Samsara]

Yes, I would.

[DarMar]

To forgive to someone something does not have anything at all with him, it has with forgiver. You can not wash anyone's sin no matter how hard you tried. If i would need to forgive something in all that story, i would forgive myself for judgment cast on him.
Who are we to judge.

No i would never forgive him but simple because of one very simple fact. I would never mind him anything that he did in first place !!!
all he does, he does to himself, even if he tries to harm me or my closest, he still harms himself.
The only person who needs forgivenes is him, himself one and only.

i has nothing to do with his act.

love is wrongly assumed, it is not forgiveness... it is amongst many things UNDERSTANDING and acceptance for who he is, whatever he does and whatever he is.
to understand why he did that does not need to have judgmnent in first place.
If you truly love, you can not judge, you can not mind, so what's there let to forgive?

On other hand his question sounds more like pitfall-feedback loop trap more than any thing with forgiveness.

p.s. - interesting responses on your thread Fred, thanks for good question :)

[Wind]

I certainly wouldn't like him or his actions, but I would forgive him because he too is a child of God. We are not separate so I would be judging myself too if I refused to forgive him. My heart does not allow it. There are many atrocities happening in this world, but we need to see beyond them. No one will escape their own karma... True apology is the beginning. Then you can start working on your karma.

Only forgiveness stops the wheel of karma.

[Maunagarjana]

I would forgive him for the ways it affected my life, sure. Like others have said, that's all I can give. Others must make their choice. But my forgiveness would not be a "get out of jail" free card. The responsibility would then fall upon him to work to expose what had been done and stop others still doing those things. Such a person could be a powerful ally if they were to defect to the light, even if they were only in Spirit form. They could provide information, at least. It's easy to forget that people like this were likely victimized themselves in horrific ways few could imagine, and while this does not excuse their actions whatsoever, it would at least allow for a cycle of sickness and abuse to come to an end and allow for some healing.

I'm now thinking of the argument that crops up at times between Star Wars fans, whether or not Darth Vader's sacrifice at the end of Return of the Jedi makes up for blowing up planets and terrorizing the galaxy. My answer has always been....well, he did the right thing in the end. He learned. He brought down the Sith and the Empire, sacrificing his own life in the process. It doesn't make up for what he did, but it's better than not doing that.

I think Fred's question is a good gauge of one's level of consciousness and what aspect of one's being they most identify with; the body & ego, the lower spiritual soul/self (still caught up in illusions of separation and duality) or the higher spiritual nature that knows there is no separation. All you have to do is ask yourself how the greatest spiritual masters in the history of humankind would respond to such a question asked with true contrition. I think we all could well imagine what the two most talked about ones, Jesus and Buddha, would say. There's a long line of Hindu gurus who would do the same. Muhammad, I would guess, would probably want to cut his head off (sorry.)

Personally, I believe in the miraculous power of forgiveness and redemption. I have exercised it to great effect in my life, in very personal ways that I have even been criticized for at times, but I was determined to rise above the resentment and anger and blame and self righteousness and turn the page. But once forgiveness is given, one must be willing to make amends and change their ways. And when forgiving someone who has behaved horribly, the individual in question has to accept the fact that forgiveness does not mean forgetting, and that the figurative leash they will then be on will be short and the expectations high.

[skippy]

"Only once every few thousand lifetimes does this window open allowing us a brief moment with one another, and I have asked you the forgiveness question thousands of times. At long last you have relented, and chosen to forgive yourself for what others have long since forgiven you of. Welcome Home".

Interesting question, but careful not to mix things up. To forgive, yes always, there where possible, to restore the pieces. To forgive always, as a standard reaction, without any questioning? No way. Some simply don't make it home during this lifetime. What would be my reaction? Probably, a big moment of silence before leaving the crossroad.

[music]

Can we forgive ourselves is the question. For the acts of ommision as well as the acts of commision? For the bad thoughts about others, and for the bad thoughts about ourselves? For the turning of the blind eye, and for the little white lie?

We are one, so for me the original question is a no-brainer - of course I would. Everything comes into our lives for a reason - a visitation like this would a gift too precious to turn away from, and even though pain in this reality is all too real, ultimately it is all an illusion. The real purpose of existence is exactly how we would react to a situation like the one Fred laid out in the OP. We are here to play, and to learn, and for me, refusing forgiveness (for whatever reason) would tell me that I still have something to learn.

[Youniverse]

Well it's my understanding that we have or will have been "the evil one," the saint, the beggar, the rich man, and all the rest of it over many lifetimes or incarnations. So to forgive this one, is to also forgive ourselves for the terrible things we have done and therefore heal ourselves in the process. Someone capable of such horrific and despicable crimes as these, has obviously forgotten a great deal about who he/she really is. So I would, for a moment, feel pity for this person, while at the same time feeling compassion and sadness for his victims. He knew not what he was doing or wouldn't have done it in the first place. I'm sure many of us here now have either dealt with or been these kinds of characters in lives past, as I'm sure many on here are what are known as "old souls." But actually I'd probably say to this "evil doer" forgiveness is not necessary. Only evolution to a higher consciousness is necessary to make the pain go away.

[Wind]

Well it's my understanding that we have or will have been "the evil one," the saint, the beggar, the rich man, and all the rest of it over many lifetimes or incarnations. So to forgive this one, is to also forgive ourselves for the terrible things we have done and therefore heal ourselves in the process. Someone capable of such horrific and despicable crimes as these, has obviously forgotten a great deal about who he/she really is. So I would, for a moment, feel pity for this person, while at the same time feeling compassion and sadness for his victims. He knew not what he was doing or wouldn't have done it in the first place. I'm sure many of us here now have either dealt with or been these kinds of characters in lives past, as I'm sure many on here are what are known as "old souls." But actually I'd probably say to this "evil doer" forgiveness is not necessary. Only evolution to a higher consciousness is necessary to make the pain go away.

Yes, exactly! I feel that I have transcended both evil and good after hundreds or thousands of lives. Now as I am, I am able to understand and have sympathy for each and every soul... Sympathy even for the devil.

Once we go beyond the duality perspective we will truly see others as ourselves... If we do not have forgiveness in our hearts than are we any better? My heart cries out for every lost and hurt soul, becauce once I have been one.

[modwiz]

For me, no question. Yes, I could. I could forgive him.

There could be a lot more to this, but not here.

[Arrowwind]

When I was doing hospice nursing we had an old timer come in from the VA hospital. He was the ultimate sexist and promiscuous and alarming to tender sensibilities. Many of the young CNAs feared him and requested me to go with them when they did cares for him and so I did.

The nurses of course had their challenges too. One nurse was considerably less tolerant than most. She couldnt stand him and she'd come out of his room mumbling obscenities and fuming with anger at who this dying old man was. After a few days it was agreed that I would be the one to take his care, even when I was working on the other unit.. Id make the long walk 10 or 15 times a day to see that his needs were met.

This old guy, well he was not a nice guy and for someone close to being on his way out he still had a pretty strong sexual charge. I had to repeatedly put him in his place, chaperone the CNAs in and out and calm down other nurses who went in to his room to find unexpected fantasies at play.

After a few weeks he and I, we seemed to make peace with one another. After coming to understand my fortitude and resiliance he came to see that he could not get to me. He stopped bothering the CNAs. After a while he started to confide in me.. his military story of mayhem and blood and death, his wife that died young from pregnancy gone wrong, his isolation from his family, the mother that hated him, the abuse he received as a child, his alcohol abuse, is self deprration... all of it came out. All of it. I listened at his bedside, holding his hand. For days this went on.

Now I couldn't do all his care. I did have days off which of course forced other nurses to care for him. It seemed that their fuming and cursing regarding this old timer never really let up. I could see that they did not see the person that I had come to look at. I could see that their fear and their anger and their judgments would never permit them to see him, to help him nor to be his friend in any kind of way.

No, he wasnt giving up his old tricks with them. Only me, and my crew. We were the only safe ones. I refused to enable him and I didn't know how to play the victim game.

One day I saw one of the other nurses come running out of his room crying and red with anger. She swore she would never go in there again and she never did.

I immediately went to his room and he reached for my hand. He said, " I'm a bad man. I'm a really bad man and sometimes I enjoy it. I don't know why. I wish I could stop. My life has been so lonely and now there is nothing left but to die."

And die he did that night.

[music]

Every one of us that is incarnate comes into this world pure. Some children are blessed, and some are not. A lot of the children who have a nightmare as their reality become what we would call 'bad" people. All of us have had experiences that are traumatic however, and what makes the difference between those who rise above, and those who don't, is the ability and opportunity to deal and process. When we are confronted with trauma we are unable to deal with, we shut it away with the piece of us it most affects, and it is around this neglected part of ourselves that the energy that we would call "evil" coalesces. Every "evil" human is a child who was unable to deal with their trauma. They deserve our love and forgiveness as much as a saint does, and it is the measure of our human hearts if we are able to do this. I can say this with the knowledge of experience, because I was badly and repeatedly sexually abused as a child. I shut a piece of me away for a long time, but my ability and opportunity to deal was provided by a loving mother. I was lucky, many others are not so lucky. Keep them in your thoughts, because they all yearn to come home. I, for one, welcome them with open arms, and an open heart.

[Fred Steeves]

I immediately went to his room and he reached for my hand. He said, " I'm a bad man. I'm a really bad man and sometimes I enjoy it. I don't know why. I wish I could stop. My life has been so lonely and now there is nothing left but to die."

And die he did that night.

I always enjoy your Hospice stories Arrowwind, what a true education in life being around that type of environment has to offer, for any who choose to engage it. I'm glad this person, who was obviously so miserable in this life, was fortunate enough in the end to cross paths with not only someone he could long last confide in, but who would also hold his hand once more before he passed.

Often times it's those little things that can mean so much.

[Kryztian]

As tears begin to stream down his ancient and whithered face, would you be able to do it?

Sitting hear typing and saying "I would forgive that person" as a lot more easily said than done. Fred, you paint such a creepy picture, the best I can muster up is in my mind at this time is saying to that eerie being "yes, I forgive you, but get away from me you creep!"

Forgiveness isn't easy, it takes work! One can forgive instantly with a few words or the stroke of a pen, but the physical body and the energy body have a memory. It may only take an instant for for the hurt or pain to enter the physical and energy body, but to get it to leave may be the task of a lifetime, or might even span generations. The source of hurt is never self-evident, and it might be necessary to first understand who, what and why one is forgiving, a task that can drain ones mind and soul for thousands of hours of agony.

I agree with the saying that holding onto a grudge is allowing someone else to live rent free in your head, but does anyone ever consider how difficult the eviction process is? It's not a task that you can just pass on to your lawyer. Or therapist, priest, shaman, etc.

Perhaps there is another way, that one can just say "I forgive you" and one will just be relieved of the tormenting anger and hatred, of the feelings of being a victim, of the longing for righteousness. Perhaps it really is just that simple. But I have not reached that point yet in my life.

[binemaya]

Hey,
interesting reactions! :-)
I know in my heart that by judging you are into the matrix again....just another game. I am bored by this games. And I don´t want to engage on this level anymore. I want new stuff, crazy ideas, a world full of artists and dancers! We live between so many walls that I can hardly breathe and when I engage, i give my energy, my power away and most of all: I am sending my awareness away from the world I want to live in, free and whole and free!:party:

[Ivanhoe]

I think I could forgive the man, but I couldn't forgive the things he had/has/will do. He can only do this himself.

[SilentFeathers]

To those participating in this thread that are quick to forgive this child killing cannibal creep.....would you just then allow this scumbag to freely walk away knowing the possibility that he may go and kill and eat another person's child????

...and if he did eat another child after he left your presence, could you then forgive yourself for not doing more to stop this creep in his tracks when you had the chance? would you yourself somewhat feel partly responsible if this creep killed again?......or would you just forgive him again?

We can always forgive anyone for anything at anytime....forgiving ourselves is a little bit more difficult at times.


RESPONSIBILITY. The obligation to answer for an act done, and to repair any injury it may have caused.
2. This obligation arises without any contract, either on the part of the party bound to repair the injury, or of the party injured. The law gives to the person who has suffered loss, a compensation in damages.
3. it is a general rule that no one is answerable for the acts of another unless he has, by some act of his own, concurred in them. But when he has sanctioned those acts, either explicitly or by implication, he is responsible. An innkeeper in general, civilly liable for the acts of his servants towards his guests, for anything done in their capacity of servants. The owner of a carriage is also, civilly responsible to a passenger for any injury done by the driver as such. See Driver.
4. There are cases where persons are made civilly responsible for the acts of others by particular laws and statutory provisions, when they have not done anything by which they might be considered as participating in such acts. The responsibility which the hundred (q.v.) in England formerly incurred to make good any robbery committed within its precincts, may be mentioned as an instance. A somewhat similar liability is incurred now in some places in this country by a county, when property has been destroyed by a mob.
5. Penal responsibility is always personal, and no one can be punished for the commission of a crime but the person who has committed it or his accomplice. Vide Damages; Injury; Loss.

[Belle]

....And then you realize why this is happening, why is this man laying his soul bare for you to see it in all of it's gut wrenching detail? This is when he speaks mind to mind to you: "I can't take it any more, I just can't bare it...I've been so lost, for so long, that there was no longer anything left of who I once was, and then even the faint knowing that I had ever even been anything but what you now see before you was gone. It was all gone, forever... Until your light crossed my path. That's when I remembered, and also knew there was a way out. My only way out is, can you find it in your heart to forgive me?"

As tears begin to stream down his ancient and whithered face, would you be able to do it?

Let me repeat the important part one more time...."My only way out is, can you find it in your heart to forgive me?"

Right now, in the present moment, the only thing he is doing is seeking forgiveness to turn his life around. And right now, in the present moment, it is yours to forgive...or not. In the present moment, the past is over and done and cannot be undone. In the now, there exists an opportunity for change.

If you cannot find forgiveness in your heart or choose not to forgive because of what he has done in the past, you are responsible for closing the door on his only way out...and he will continue doing horrible things.

In forgiving, the door is opened...the extent of your responsibility is ended and his begins.

I believe redemption is available to all to seek it...none are beyond redemption and atonement...but that is his to seek.

I choose unconditional love and forgiveness...if that makes me a fool, then that is what I am. :jester:

[DeDukshyn]

I've known someone similar. Not the flesh eating , child killer, but someone very much in service to all that is corrupt. Self indulgent. drugs, homophobic, neo-nazi, hate filled, self loathing, instigated racial tensions, breaking up families, you get the idea.
I became acquainted with this person in my mid teens until early twenties. It seemed every person who came to know him, suffered from his works. Myself being no exception. And although my encounter was not physical, I still suffered by the lies he spread about me. Lies that have grown and festered for well over 20 years. It did much to harm my reputation as a human.
Long story short, he contacted me on Facebook requesting friendship which I declined. He still found a way to subscribe to my page, and made a few likes and comments. He made a few private messages, and finally I confronted him and acknowledged that I knew it was him who had ruined my reputation. I told him I forgave him but still wanted no part of his friendship, it seemed he hadn't made any changes in his life choices. He hasn't contacted me back.
This just transpired this past week, so the it is still fresh in my experience and has been a very painful life journey in this regard.

So this question seems to be posed at a most interesting moment for me. If someone is truly repentant, then I would whole heartily be willing and ready to forgive and the greatest of trespasses. But, I am not completely sure how one could navigate their road back to the supreme without much difficulty.
Perhaps that is what we are all doing here... learning these lessons of divine love and forgiveness.

In my travels I have learned a few things ....

Forgiveness with condition is not true forgiveness, and Love with condition is not true love.
The true understanding of these qualities comes when one realizes they do not work with conditions.

Just my 2 cents ;)

[DeDukshyn]

Now I wonder if it were asked of the responders here: "What is the greatest forgiveness you have ever wholeheartedly actually applied in your life?", what the relationship between the answers to this question and the one Fred asked?

I myself, forgave a situation where I had taken a best friend into my house to stay during a transition he was in out of the goodness of my heart. It was myself, my Fiancee, and our Son. My fiancee got pregnant, and well, let's just say it wasn't mine. It hurt a lot - more than anything I have experienced, but that fire was calmed only through genuine forgiveness. Not easy, but not impossible either.

I didn't speak to my friend for years and years after, but I let him know he was forgiven, and I was able to forgive my Fiancee as well (and no we didn't marry, lol). Just because I forgave them didn't mean we were all best friends again.

There is a measuring tool to tell if you have truly forgiven, and that is, if you think of the situation and/or person that wronged you and that you forgive, if you truly go over that entire scenario in head again, and you feel the fire emotions still towards that person / event, then you have not truly forgiven. I believe I heard this tool first from Toltec author don Miguel Ruiz.

Forgiveness is not a couple words you say to alleviate some ego mechanism; true forgiveness is an absolute attitude of grace.

My 2 cents ;)

[greybeard]

As a parallel
My mother said to me as a child " Dont eat meat unless you would be prepared to kill the animal yourself"
I was virtually a natural born vegetarian anyway.
The point I am making is there is no point in judging unless one is also prepared to carry out the sentence or execution.
Countering violence with violence is not the answer and will bring personal karma---as said in a previous post the perpetrator will attract in exact measure the pain and suffering he inflicted on others.
Forgiving is very good for the personal growth.
It can take great strength and courage to forgive---retribution is comparatively easy.

Chris

[DeDukshyn]

....And then you realize why this is happening, why is this man laying his soul bare for you to see it in all of it's gut wrenching detail? This is when he speaks mind to mind to you: "I can't take it any more, I just can't bare it...I've been so lost, for so long, that there was no longer anything left of who I once was, and then even the faint knowing that I had ever even been anything but what you now see before you was gone. It was all gone, forever... Until your light crossed my path. That's when I remembered, and also knew there was a way out. My only way out is, can you find it in your heart to forgive me?"

As tears begin to stream down his ancient and whithered face, would you be able to do it?

Let me repeat the important part one more time...."My only way out is, can you find it in your heart to forgive me?"

Right now, in the present moment, the only thing he is doing is seeking forgiveness to turn his life around. And right now, in the present moment, it is yours to forgive...or not. In the present moment, the past is over and done and cannot be undone. In the now, there exists an opportunity for change.

If you cannot find forgiveness in your heart or choose not to forgive because of what he has done in the past, you are responsible for closing the door on his only way out...and he will continue doing horrible things.

In forgiving, the door is opened...the extent of your responsibility is ended and his begins.

I believe redemption is available to all to seek it...none are beyond redemption and atonement...but that is his to seek.

I choose unconditional love and forgiveness...if that makes me a fool, then that is what I am. :jester:

In appearances to many, the "fool" and the "enlightened" will seem the same ;)

[modwiz]

I looked through this thread
hither and thither,
finding no correction now
wonder whether, and whither,
to place it hither?

Fred, a dried out face would be spelled 'withered', instead of whithered.

My question to you,
will you forgive me? :P

[SilentFeathers]

Fred has a way of poking his finger in your ear a bit and poking the brain, tickling the mind in to thinking....

[Maunagarjana]

Forgiveness, universal love and unconditional love are some of the most misunderstood topics by the vast majority of people. They tend to think that by giving these things you are giving blanket approval and and a blank check of trust along with it, which is most definitely *NOT THE CASE*. If one hasn't had radical heart opening experiences, and one hasn't developed the necessary levels of insight to be able to see the larger patterns that reveal what keeps the cycles of dysfunction perpetuating, then one will see radical acts of forgiveness as nothing but foolishness. Also, it is crucial to understand that holding on to anger and resentment is an impediment to one's own well being and spiritual progress.

Probably one of the most influential experiences of mine when it comes to this subject is an experience I had one time, admittedly on a small dose of magic mushrooms, my first time taking them in fact. It was one of the most profound experiences I ever had, for I had felt the presence of what people call "God". I was 17 and at the time, I was an agnostic, verging on atheism. So, what happened is (and this is just the "Reader's Digest" version), I strongly and unmistakably felt a presence that pervaded everything, that was absolute intelligence and love. And I knew that it knew everything about me, everything I've ever done, everything I've ever felt, and everything I've ever thought. But there was no judgement, to my surprise. It was just complete acceptance, complete unconditional love, complete understanding. It was humbling in a way that even now when I think of it, I am moved. Then I "saw" in (super fast forward fashion) the big bang and the universe forming and the galaxies and solar systems, all of it - WHAM - culminating in the moment I was in, as the room vibrated with this crazy energy. It was....impressive. To say the least.

This experience affected me very deeply and I have never forgotten it. It changed me. As anyone who has felt anything like what I felt knows, it can't help but change you. BUT it didn't make me want to go out and do a bunch of crappy things because I felt I could get away with it or something, because after all, "God" understands, right? It made me *improve* my behavior, my attitude, my thoughts, to try to be worthy of such unbelievable love and acceptance, and to try to the best of my ability to emulate it in my dealings with others. While this little trip report seems slightly unrelated to the topic at hand, I relay this anecdote just to give one example of what motivates my response to this question. This is what I mean by a "heart opening" experience (but is by no means the only way one can come about.) When it comes to some things, there is no substitute for experience.

I would say also to keep in mind the concept behind the Buddhist mantra OM MANI PADME HUM, meaning "All Hail the Jewel and the Lotus". The Jewel represents Compassion, the Lotus represents Wisdom. If you have one but not the other, you are missing something crucial. To have compassion without wisdom is ruinous and foolish. Wisdom includes razor sharp discernment. Wisdom is what prevents you from falling into dopey forms of compassion, devoid of logic, critical thinking, intuition and plain old common sense.

[Arrowwind]

To those participating in this thread that are quick to forgive this child killing cannibal creep.....would you just then allow this scumbag to freely walk away knowing the possibility that he may go and kill and eat another person's child????

...and if he did eat another child after he left your presence, could you then forgive yourself for not doing more to stop this creep in his tracks when you had the chance? would you yourself somewhat feel partly responsible if this creep killed again?......or would you just forgive him again?



Just because we choose to forgive a hardcore criminal who has done terrible things does not mean that we allow him/her to be free in society. Forgiveness is not intrinsic to trust, nor trust to forgiveness.

I've forgiven my children many times for different things... that didn't mean I let them have full reign. Forgiveness brings the opportunity for the "sinner" to now remake themselves outside of the shadow of condemnation...to develop new levels of responsibility without the heavy burden of shame wearing them down.. so that they can seek a new potential within themselves.. Some people will have to remake themselves in prision.

Many years ago, when I was in nursing school I corresponded with a prisoner. I had never known him. It was one of those pen pal deals I found in the back of Mother Earth News back then. We wrote for about 2 years. He had murdered someone and was sentenced to 30 with the chance of parole in about 10. He had also been a drug dealer. He never could make parole. He lived in solitary confinement, but was permitted a one one hour walk daily. He had never recieved forgiveness from the family he hurt regardless of his remorse expressed to them.

Somewhere along the line in prision he got into Christianity. He entered it deeply and profoundly. When we started writing we shared comparative analysis between Christianity and othe religions. He by far exceded me in scholarly achievement. Some where along the line he asked me for forgiveness for his crime. He felt that he could not progress , that he could not unlock his self created cage unless some human forgave him... so I forgave him.

Human to human, heart to heart is where forgiveness resides. It is not just words. It is like being lifted on the wings of angles.

His time in prison brought to him opportunity to do deep reflection. Remorse and grief for what he had done did not free his spirit.

In my heart of heart I believe him to be fully redeemed but he will pay his debt to society and likely he will never get parole and die an old man in prison, that is, if he does not succumb to some sort of prison violence or disease. Becasue our correspondence was so abundant and revealing we went on to put a prison newsletter together dealing with spiriutal issues, all through the mail, pre computers, so it was quite a project.. He ended up doing quite a bit of spiritual counseling for other inmates through the newsletter. I lost track of him long ago now but to my very bone I believe in his redemption. A redemption that he gave to himself but the key to the redemptive door was forgiveness, from one other human being.

Our humanness, our spirituality, our connectedness in our struggle in strife and learning and living is more precious than any ideology, any belief system, any laws. With one another we can feed and nourish and heal the forlorn, the dark, the destitute, the hopeless, nourishing away angst and anger and shame. Without each other we can flounder for ages, lost and alone and literally in hell. When a perosn goes unforgiven they are indeed sentenced to a living hell. With the gift of forgiveness you can uplift a dark soul to the potential of light, with this simple touch of love to unlock a heart lost in self condemnation, fear, pain, lost purpose and false teaching... and above and beyond all else with this healing forgiveness comes the possibility to touch the face of god, someday.

[modwiz]

Fred has a way of poking his finger in your ear a bit and poking the brain, tickling the mind in to thinking....

Yes, but those wet willies.........:scared:

[Fred Steeves]

Fred, a dried out face would be spelled 'withered', instead of whithered.

My question to you,
will you forgive me? :P

Of course there is nothing to forgive my friend, and if per chance you were pondering weather or not to point out my error, I'm certainly glad you did.:yes4:

[Fred Steeves]

I want to especially thank those who have the not so forgiving perspective, because I have realised it's a mirror for an encounter I had just a couple of weeks ago. Me, my wife, and sister met with the owner of a cremation service for my Dad after he passed, and I could feel something was terribly wrong even outside in the parking lot. It was the old inner voice saying: "Go, just get out of here, NOW!" But time was short, there was still a long list of errands, and the wife and sister thought I was just being over reactive.

The feeling magnified intensly during the 30 minute wait in the lobby, it was like waiting in the lobby of the Bates Motel. By the time we were sitting with this man in his office, I was restraining myself from jumping up and running out of the building like it was on fire, and every action, every gesture, every word, every look in his eyes only verified and intensified the feeling. But then I was just being over reactive right?

Well thankfully, at about the point I was ready to spontaneously combust, my sister and wife were getting freaked on their own, and mouthing silently to each other: "Do you want to just go?" And go we did, with sparse pleasantries. Walking out the door was like leaving a tomb.

The more I think about it, the more I realise this man was easily the most evil person I have ever encountered, and likely an encounter that was meant to happen. It felt dark, dirty and slimy to be in his presence, and it's making my skin crawl just recounting the story. I have every reason to believe that the man is in that business because he is a necrophiliac, just for starters.

So back to tying into this thread, up until just now I have been looking back on him with disgust and good riddance, but now I see he needs forgiveness more than anyone I have ever come across. It's not in the cards for him to ask obviously, but were it to happen I certainly would. It might even wind up being the most important thing I do in this life.

Cheers,
Fred

[Arrowwind]

Fred..

Could you do it?

Confront the dastardly devil face to face and tell him what you percieve? and then forgive him?

Is it our place to make such confrontations? To forgive when not requested?
To shine the light into the dark abyss?

[Fred Steeves]

Fred..

Could you do it?

Confront the dastardly devil face to face and tell him what you percieve? and then forgive him?[QUOTE]

Hi Arrowwind, a simple yes is the answer.

[QUOTE]Is it our place to make such confrontations? To forgive when not
requested?
To shine the light into the dark
abyss?

Not sure where you're coming from there, nothing I've written describes making a confrontation, or forgiving when not requested.

[Dancerrose]

We forgive because we can. Being able to forgive is more about our own personal and spiritual development than it is about the other person’s bad deeds.

During my times of struggle, the people I remember most were the people with a kind word for me.

[Arrowwind]

Fred..

Could you do it?

Confront the dastardly devil face to face and tell him what you percieve? and then forgive him?

Hi Arrowwind, a simple yes is the answer.


]Is it our place to make such confrontations? To forgive when not
requested?
To shine the light into the dark
abyss?

Not sure where you're coming from there, nothing I've written describes making a confrontation, or forgiving when not requested.

You did say that he needed forgiveness more than any other person you had ever met, but I see now that you would not grant it because it was not requested.

Well, I was just wondering considering you have met what you considered the embodiment of evil.. so evil as to even to be eating the dead flesh of our dearly departed loved ones. You perceive, you judge, you walk away. I just wondered about that.

[music]

Is the problem perhaps that "forgiveness" is a function of the ego, and if I may be so bold as to suggest that perhaps Fred is alluding to the higher consciousness equivelant of forgiveness, which for me would be acceptance and love despite past actions. As we become more and more frequent visitors to higher dimensional states, we find expressing what we find there difficult to relay to others. All our abstract words are loaded, and are but poor reflections of the higher concepts they seek to describe. It can be no other way.

[Fred Steeves]

Remember this from the OP? I thought maybe it would be interesting to explore the non-forgiveness angle.



You see the pure essence of what this man once was, so very long ago,
before...Well, before some very poor choices had eventually turned this once
beautiful and radiant child, into what now stands confessing before you.


What for instance, could some of those "bad choices" be? It's rather doubtful that a being pure in Spirit would go directly to being this current monster, it doesn't work that way. For some of the initial clues we need look no further than the average school yard, no?

What happens inside a child the first time they decides to lie? Even better the first time they get away wth it? Or the first time they steal? They hide their ill gotten prize from the prying eyes of others, or else use their newfound lying talent as to where it came from.

How about the day a friend finds out about the stolen item anyway, and our child in question suddenly discovers the art of physical intimidation to keep things hushed anyway? Now he knows he can steal, lie, and threaten people who get in his way.

Many of us explore this path briefly when we're young, then by whatever means discover it's not for us. But let's say this one winds up in jail first, where he learns how to REALLY lie, steal, and intimidate one's way to what they want. Maybe he even learns sexuality during this stint, even though he didn't ask for it.

Now we're rolling, but there's still time to change direction. He's only 20 years old after all. As it turns out though he steals a car, and while out joyriding, runs over and kills a child. He is absolutely devastated, because he still has some heart left. At trial he doesn't even choose to put up much of a defense, what he wants more than anything in the world is to tell the parents how so very sorry he is, and maybe they could find it in their hearts to forgive him.

Sentencing day comes, along with his chance to speak should he choose to. With tears streaming down his face, he turns to the parents, tells them how so very sorry he is, that he wishes he could be dead in place of their child, and could they ever possibly forgive him...

The mother, seething with uncontrollable rage, shrieks at the top of her lungs: "There is no forgiveness in this world for monsters like you, you killed my baby you f*****g son of a bitch!!! You're going to rot in hell, and God will curse the very day you were born!!!"

He's now going to have 20 years of hard time to let that fester and ring in his ears, but a few years later, right about the time he was considering turning to Jesus, he is introduced to those who practice the other side of things. Perhaps the latter is more suited to his talents anyway, after all, not even God forgives "monsters" like him.

He would shed no more tears, ever, until the encounter in the OP. He would only cause them.

[The Truth Is In There]

i don't get what there is to forgive. he provided others with experiences they had to deal with and which helped them grow, that's all. the "negative" connotation and the idea that forgiveness is somehow required for whatever reason is a purely human concept based on a restricted perspective.

[greybeard]

i don't get what there is to forgive. he provided others with experiences they had to deal with and which helped them grow, that's all. the "negative" connotation and the idea that forgiveness is somehow required for whatever reason is a purely human concept based on a restricted perspective.

In essence I agree with you because I can.
Life has given me extremely difficult events to cope with--- somehow i survived and grew---others unfortunately cant and get into every negative reaction imaginable.

We have all seen mobs gather outside courts stoning a van carrying an accused to court---thats before they are even found guilty.
Little do they know what they are doing to themselves.
Its like drinking poison (hate) and expecting the other to die.
The rush of adrenalin filled with toxins fuelled by anger hate etc is a quick buzz but the long term affects on the body and mind are horrendous.

Chris

[Anchor]

This thread is certainly food for thought.

Who can we really forgive?

I submit, that the only person we can forgive, completely, is ourselves. Until you get that straight, all else is glamour and aftermath of whatever situation that bought about the need to forgive.

An action worthy of/necessitating forgiveness will cause effects that affect one or more other-selves. For a really significant action, those ripples in the "pond" may ultimately end up affecting every single person on the planet.

Where do you start with that?

I think you need to start with yourself and work from there.

Nothing is "unforgivable".

Also - why is it that only certain classes of action require forgiveness? After all does one feel sorry for all the good they did in the world? Example: "I am sorry I gave that poor man some money so he could eat and live another day......Yes that one, the one that ended up robbing you."

It seems to me that judgement is a precursor to forgiveness - judgement is the thing that brings into focus that which must be forgiven.

It is my position that the only person that can judge me, is me. The judgement of others in respect of myself is taken by me as advice and not judgement. It would then follow that I have to forgive myself - and that is the only valid forgiveness.

Finally - what about those situations where you do something "wrong", but you don't even know - for example, I am sure that most married men know that sooner or later, they will do something that irritates their wives in some manner, and they wont even know what they did and what they need forgiving for....

So I conclude that mixed in with judgement, it is also very necessary to have full communication about an issue and be ready to come to terms, before final, karma stopping, forgiveness is possible.

[Beren]

Forgiveness is embracing your "fallen" brother or sister back.
I Will not elaborate further, will just share the inner feeling of the moment when I forgave someone and reverse - the amazing feeling of two souls essence joining together. And afterward the cleansing and healing energy tossed with understanding and compassion.

[Anchor]

Just thought of another one.

Who can forgive me that I had a bad/unloving thought about someone, but I didn't actually tell them - and to the best of my knowledge, nothing obviously manifest in the outer world as a result?

Again, this one is down to me forgiving myself.

[Beren]

Just thought of another one.

Who can forgive me that I had a bad/unloving thought about someone, but I didn't actually tell them - and to the best of my knowledge, nothing obviously manifest in the outer world as a result?

Again, this one is down to me forgiving myself.

Oh goodie!

This imply the original nature of ours! God-Creator.
Oneness as it is called.

Meaning if you grow aware that still you did think badly of someone despite the result, you will pick up the vibration of that negative thought-YOU will feel it.

Equals to mathematical proof that we`re all one in core.

Forgive yourself-forgive all-be one with God.
Full circle.

[Anchor]

Beren,

It seems like a selfish thing that one expends effort judging oneself, but via ourselves we can work with all. Our individuality is the only tool that can bridge the finite to the infinite. We already have the means to do this (and it is self evident, because we got here in our bodies in the first place!)

I think this is also the theory behind the practice of Ho'oponopono (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho%CA%BBoponopono)

“If we can accept that we are the sum total of all past thoughts, emotions, words, deeds and actions and that our present lives and choices are colored or shaded by this memory bank of the past, then we begin to see how a process of correcting or setting aright can change our lives, our families and our society.”
- Morrnah Nalamaku Simeona

[Beren]

Anchor,

I will add that seeing yourself in the soul across you is the epitome of divine.
"Do to others whatever you wish to be done to yourselves".

By judging ourself continuously we judge others, even God.
Buts since this is impossible in God`s eyes- it reminds us of who we are so we can experience first hand the Love in us and others.

When you honestly forgive yourself, you are able to forgive everybody.

[Anchor]

Beren, thanks again.

Now, let's consider the potential for co-dependency when person-A asks to be forgiven by person-B.

Person A is imposing somewhat on Person B.

However, I have learned that in this existence there are no mistakes, only surprises.

So if I (playing person B) were confronted by Person A asking me for forgiveness I would be forced to consider this situation in more detail than might normally be considered healthy :)

[Beren]

Anchorman :)

You`re on a tail of good ride of greater wisdom friend!
How much is considered healthy?

I deem that initiator energy of person A is the key of person B`s(you) evaluation.
Is A-honest in its appeal?
Is A-playing with you?
What is A`s motivation?

If you see A`s motives as genuine, then it`s up to you to act Godly-to forgive.
It should be noted that forgiveness doesn`t relieve the sowed causes-they will bare fruits.

Those fruits can be dealt with later by A and B or A alone. But they aren`t removed -otherwise lesson is never learned.

[Anchor]

If you see A`s motives as genuine, then it`s up to you to act Godly-to forgive.
It should be noted that forgiveness doesn`t relieve the sowed causes-they will bare fruits.

Those fruits can be dealt with later by A and B or A alone. But they aren`t removed -otherwise lesson is never learned.

Agree, which is sort of what I said in my first answer on this thread.

At least I got to explain myself to myself !


...this would really not be about the one seeking redemption - but his opposite number, that is, in the one he seeks it from.

So if it were me he was asking, I would need to look at my own inner issues and finally we would resolve them together, but it would not happen at all unless I even had those inner issues.

Fred obviously does, at least in his story - LOL

It is so climactic and final, it probably is what the warrior does at the end of his journey, and lays down his arms, having beaten all - even himself - in combat. He no longer needs to fight.

[Fred Steeves]

It is so climactic and final, it probably is what the warrior does at the end of his journey, and lays down his arms, having beaten all - even himself - in combat. He no longer needs to fight.

I like that John.

Cheers Mate! http://www.bigtenfever.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif
Fred