Belief junkies and the fear of not knowing.

[RMorgan]

Hey folks,

I´d like to discuss about an important issue, which is the fear of not knowing and its connection with the need to have beliefs.

There´s a war going on right now. A war for your beliefs. Everyday we see lots of people trying to convince us to believe their theories, hypothesis and "truths".

These people are so smart that they have a brand new set of beliefs crafted for every single individual on this planet.

The point is to ask where this phenomenon comes from? Is the demand for beliefs so huge?

Actually, we must question if there really is a need to believe in the first place. Why people are always looking for something to believe? Are some people belief junkies?

Is it so hard to admit that we don´t know much about ourselves, the world and the universe? Is this need to believe actually created by the fear of not knowing?

Maybe it´s a human characteristic to fabricate information to fill the gaps left by the unknown; Before knowing the astronomical nature of the sun and the moon, people used to believe they were gods battling in the sky, killing each other in an eternal cycle.

So yes; We make up stories ourselves or believe someone else´s stories whenever we don´t know something.

I ask these questions because during my time here on PA, I´ve seen so many people changing beliefs like they change clothes.

One day someone seriously believe something or someone´s theories or predictions; Next day, when such theories are proved to be invalid or when such predictions don´t materialize, the same person instantly incorporate another set of beliefs to their mindset.

To make things worse, I often see people believing other individuals that they don´t even know. They believe their nice videos and well presented articles just because someone else told them to do so, because they managed to build the image of credibility somehow, using mundane marketing strategies.

I know that sometimes life can get pretty boring, but I think this sort of entertainment is very dangerous. It can really ruin someone´s intellectual, psychological and spiritual integrity.

Even current accepted theories from all scientific fields aren´t absolute. They are always replaced by better theories after a while. Let alone beliefs, which have no factual foundation at all.

When something lead us to believe that we already have the answer for a complex question it neutralizes our natural curiosity to investigate, to look for answers, which is definitively not a good thing. After all, why would you look for answers when you already believe you have them?

So, wouldn´t it be more effective for us, truth seekers, to continue our journey with total intellectual, psychological and spiritual freedom, without being attached to the need to believe and without fearing to admit that we don´t know a lot of things?

If the need to believe is indeed motivated by the fear of not knowing, the insecurity of feeling ignorant, then how can beliefs be considered a good thing, if they are fundamentally motivated by fear?

I´m really interested to listen to your opinions about that.

Cheers,

Raf.

[Flash]

You know what, sometimes we let go of beliefs because of events in our life. Then, the main simple ones remain, those that are good guides for us.

Other times, we becomes so overwhelmed with beliefs of all kinds (and hold on to it for a while) that after some times, it becomes all ridiculous and difficult to maintain and we go back to basics

Either way, back to simple and to basic is ensured at some point.

So yes, overload us with ridiculous beliefs as much as possible to ensure beliefs short circuits and beliefs release as a result.

The danger is much more when we have few, very strong, wicked beliefs.

[Lancelot]

Wouldn't it be great if this coming change endowed us all with the ability to see and understand the Truth clearly?

Imagine when we heard or read something, we knew instinctively which parts of it were true. Learning and human evolution would accelerate at a unprecedented rate.

This would stop the army of 'belief junkies' and allow us to get on with the more important things in life, like healing the planet and ourselves and evolving spiritually.

[13th Warrior]

At the core i believe...err...i think this condition stems from soul evolution.

In our lives journeys to evolve we go down many dead end paths...it's all part of the process.

qQWZrDH5X8o

[Carmody]

Is it so hard to admit that we don´t know much about ourselves, the world and the universe? Is this need to believe actually created by the fear of not knowing?


Yes. The flow from feel, to grunt, to articulation, to communication. Layers of mental construction.

Hypnotism, brainwashing, waterboarding, torture, and so on. All going after the same component of mental origin and origin of expression. Beneath the conscious and consciousness layer.

The problem was that L.Ron Hubbard was all about teaching people to understand this and rise INTO their own connectivity of knowing all this and living it. This is why he was torn down, ridiculed, and made to look like a lie and a joke..as he articulated concrete and real methods and ways to get there. Eg, that the first edition of dianetics and all his subsequent original writing was capable of showing this. Yet, look how twisted the situation is, regarding who he was, his 'known history' in the public eye, now.


thus, consider:

Non emotional is logic, feeling is belief. Yet they blend, down below the idea of conscious thinking. who's to say where the line lies?

Mixing the two together is usually an unrealized aspect of complex human function, that we each indulge in, in every thought that comes into being.

As usual, the problem and the answer is deep inside of you, not external to you. It has always been inside, and never been outside of you.

Fixing one's self does require in engaging the mind to a point of internal dissolution of what 99.99% of the public sees as being themselves. too bad. if they don't get past the fear barrier created by emotions and ego, they'll never get there.

if one says, well, "I got to go to work", or "get the dinner running", or "change a diaper", "no time for this"...well..then...they've already lost.

[markpierre]

Well, whatever you believe is a belief. Even the belief in truth isn't true.

[SilentFeathers]

Lacking common sense and a good perception of the collective reality that surrounds one's "self" causes chaotic and or delusional belief systems in my opinion....

[Carmody]

Well, whatever you believe is a belief. Even the belief in truth isn't true.

Yes and no.

heh heh....

[Tony]

People create a belief, because they think they do not 'know', which does not make sense. If there is a 'being' then it must have the quality of knowing, of being aware. That does not need a belief.
This is so provable for without it we would be a vegetable!

All wisdom stems from there.
Unfortunately because they do not recognise this, people are confused by incomplete information, which does not produce confidence, so therefore they fear.



Amazed,
Tony

[RMorgan]

People create a belief, because they think they do not 'know', which does not make sense. If there is a 'being' then it must have the quality of knowing, of being aware. That does not need a belief.
This is so provable for without it we would be a vegetable!

All wisdom stems from there.
Unfortunately because they do not recognise this, people are confused by incomplete information, which does not produce confidence, so therefore they fear.

Amazed,
Tony

Hey Tony,

We do have consciousness, we do think and we are aware, therefore, we know. I agree with that. I never said we don´t know anything; I said we don´t know many things.

However, my point is that, in the grand scheme of the universe, we don´t know a lot things, at least consciously.

By the fear of not knowing such things, which will probably remain a mystery for a long time, people fabricate information and make up stories in order to palliatively fill the gap left by ignorance.

People just can´t live with the unknown, therefore they use beliefs as a mechanism to artificially suppress their insecurity, inevitably causing conflict.

Cheers,

Raf.

[Anastasia]

But, itsn't all of this what the forum is about?

And, are we not in thee most unprecedented of times on our planet...our Mother, the Earth?

How grand it is that we have this venue' in which to participate!

I come to the table with a litiny of studies which I have devoted my life to. They are mark places on the map of my life, it all has led me to the Now.

Many, I have left behind, or, they have faded into the background...all have been treasures in my treasure box...I give these gifts away to women in my life who come to me for counsel in my 12Step work.

When I see a friend's eyes light up with her own new discoveries as a result...that is the Gift!

I am grateful for this place in which to ex-press.

and, I do understand the connundrum of the multiplicity of beliefs...it can get like a multitude of butterflies fluttering all about sometimes....hehe

Sincerely,
Anastasia

[Anastasia]

I do long for that very singlness of purpose though!

I believe I may be able to articulte what that is.

It is my heart.

When I am still, and I allow myself to go into my heart and I hold that Christed energy within, I do 'know', for brief moments who I am.

Anastasia

¤=[Post Update]=¤

quote:
"Is it so hard to admit that we don´t know much about ourselves, the world and the universe? Is this need to believe actually created by the fear of not knowing?"

yes, yes, yes~

[RUSirius]

I "believe" somethings will happen, even if those somethings are nothings.

[Anastasia]

quoting RMorgan...

[Tony]

People create a belief, because they think they do not 'know', which does not make sense. If there is a 'being' then it must have the quality of knowing, of being aware. That does not need a belief.
This is so provable for without it we would be a vegetable!

All wisdom stems from there.
Unfortunately because they do not recognise this, people are confused by incomplete information, which does not produce confidence, so therefore they fear.

Amazed,
Tony

Hey Tony,

We do have consciousness, we do think and we are aware, therefore, we know. I agree with that.

However, in the grand scheme of the universe, we don´t know many things, at least consciously.

By the fear of not knowing such things, which will probably remain a mystery for a long time, people fabricate information and make up stories in order to palliatively fill the gap left by ignorance.

People just can´t live with the unknown, therefore they use beliefs as a mechanism to artificially suppress their insecurity, inevitably causing conflict.

Cheers,

Raf.




Hello Raf,

This is true.........ish. There are an infinite amount of things we can never know about the universe. If we are talking about the physical universe, we are talking about a constantly changing events.
None of it inherently exists precisely because it constantly changes, they are all temporary events, relying on causes and conditions.


It is precisely because we can understand that this is true, that we can understand 'all' phenomena in any dimension. Most of it is not worth bothering about!


We are here now, to deal with the illusion we have created. After death we will have another set of problems.


The 'Grand Scheme' of the universe, is to know thy self.

Of course if this sound boring then we will keep on wondering what 'S's' parents had for breakfast! Everything is created out of our not knowing (ignorance). Consciousness did not recognise its true nature, and has been mucking around ever since.

Anything we imagine can be created, however that path leads to, maintenance, defence, aggression and ultimately suffering. We will keep doing this until we get fed up and tired of it all. Perhaps sentient beings who are new to the human realm get excited by aliens.
Personally I've been nothing but an alien....so I've stopped!...what a relief.:decision:


Yours tired of it all,
Tony

[Tarka the Duck]

Hello Raf

Oooo, such a fascinating topic :thumb:

You would think that, when someone challenges our beliefs with facts that we hadn't previously considered, we would alter our opinions and incorporate the new information into our thinking. Apparently, it's not the case! Instead, when our deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, our beliefs actually get stronger.

This is known as "the backfire effect":

~~~~~~~
The backfire effect is a cognitive bias that causes individuals challenged with evidence contradictory to their beliefs to reject the evidence and instead become an even firmer supporter of the initial belief.[1][2] The phrase was first coined by Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler in a paper entitled "When Corrections Fail: The persistence of political misperceptions".[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backfire_effect

~~~~~~

Once we decide to believe something, we have to then keep our belief safe from harm: we have to build ourselves a system of protection that allows us to continue seeing our beliefs as true and proper. Often, our belief won't stand up to scrutiny and maybe on one level, we know this, and therefore meet any conflicting information with aggression (or simply ignore it!). Any argument - however logical or rational - seems to only serves to strengthen our belief system. We only want to hear what we want to hear - that which confirms our chosen belief and gives us permission to carry on believing it.

It's funny how:
When we come up against something that challenges our beliefs, and causes inner conflict, we stop, take notice, evaluate and scrutinise it.
When we come up against something that supports our beliefs, we welcome it in and lovingly allow it to waft past us without engaging cognitively with it at all.

Interestingly, it seems that researchers have pinpointed the area of the brain responsible for gullibility:
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2012/08/24/research-pinpoints-brains-gullibility-center

[SilentFeathers]

Hello Raf

Oooo, such a fascinating topic :thumb:

You would think that, when someone challenges our beliefs with facts that we hadn't previously considered, we would alter our opinions and incorporate the new information into our thinking. Apparently, it's not the case! Instead, when our deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, our beliefs actually get stronger.

This is known as "the backfire effect":

~~~~~~~
The backfire effect is a cognitive bias that causes individuals challenged with evidence contradictory to their beliefs to reject the evidence and instead become an even firmer supporter of the initial belief.[1][2] The phrase was first coined by Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler in a paper entitled "When Corrections Fail: The persistence of political misperceptions".[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backfire_effect

~~~~~~

Once we decide to believe something, we have to then keep our belief safe from harm: we have to build ourselves a system of protection that allows us to continue seeing our beliefs as true and proper. Often, our belief won't stand up to scrutiny and maybe on one level, we know this, and therefore meet any conflicting information with aggression (or simply ignore it!). Any argument - however logical or rational - seems to only serves to strengthen our belief system. We only want to hear what we want to hear - that which confirms our chosen belief and gives us permission to carry on believing it.

It's funny how:
When we come up against something that challenges our beliefs, and causes inner conflict, we stop, take notice, evaluate and scrutinise it.
When we come up against something that supports our beliefs, we welcome it in and lovingly allow it to waft past us without engaging cognitively with it at all.

Interestingly, it seems that researchers have pinpointed the area of the brain responsible for gullibility:
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2012/08/24/research-pinpoints-brains-gullibility-center

Examples can be found here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43793-Drake-Updates-clarifications-and-more

[Dorjezigzag]

I think this very much stems from the patriarchal system.

Where people feel they have to be in control and appear all knowing. The big Daddy. The god at the top of pyramid who will cast down anyone who disagrees.

Not enough people have the courage to say you know what 'I'm am not sure about that, may be this may be that, until I have more information and even then much knowledge is evolving and flowing nothing is permanent. What is true one day may not be the next

Within the Tibetan Buddhist system there are celestial beings called Dakinis sometimes related to angels in the west who are often described as muses of those seeking enlightenment. They can be tricky, capricious, and unpredictable at times since they aim to break our rabid fixation on concrete thoughts.

This a big problem our constant need to present our beliefs as an absolute truth and impose them on others, I find the more I know the more I realize i don't know but the less it matters.


I am interesting in hearing others beliefs but just don't tell me it is the absolute truth,we need to give people space to think themselves (literally!)


“All that we are is the result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him.”

Buddha said, “The mind is everything. What you think you become.”

Your thinking determines your actions; your actions determine your outcome. Right thinking will grant you everything you desire; wrong thinking is a vice that will eventually destroy you.
If you change your thinking you will change your life. Buddha said, “All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?”

[Mark]

We are biologically programmed to believe. To know. Every thought results in electromagnetic conduits connecting and disconnecting, synapses forming pathways between neurons, forging the personality through :xperience and intent. The mind becomes whatever we think as our bodies become whatever we eat.

Convoluting the brain in this manner is normative. Even in rejecting belief we are forming a belief. Patterning the brain and its neural structures a certain way as opposed to another.

When we literally change our minds we change our brains physically. It is the way our bodies are set up to host consciousness. Part and parcel of the program. To not believe is a contradiction in terms. And yet, the paradox is that moving beyond belief and knowledge is the path. To change the mind, to change the biology to become perfectly clear is to change the state of consciousness. The correlation lies in the actual physiological shifts that occur in the body when modalities designed to clear the mind are implemented and integrated into a life, becoming the primary mode of expression. The new field of quantum biology explores the unity of mind and body and the physiology of consciousness.


While it is often entertaining and personally gratifying to obtain knowledge and hold beliefs there comes a point when holding on to the ephemeral, the constantly shifting, must give way to the search for inner peace. Returning to the paradox I mentioned above, knowledge flows easily and beliefs no longer hold the power to physically mold the mind once a state of mental equilibrium is reached. Of course many here are familiar with the practices concerned wih acheiving this state of being.

I think the important correlation here is the integration of body and mind. Leading to the understanding that this is all more than mere thoughts, word and actions in the colloquial sense of understanding those terms.

There is much more. The emtanglement of minds that form institutions, attitudes, mores and norrms, our interrelation to and entanglement with the biosphere. The holistic nature of our entwined unity of consciousness and biology is no mere idea. It is the fundamental substrate of our very existence. Since that is so, beliefs cannot be subtracted from the corpus of cognition that we engage in and co-create every moment of every day.

[Maunagarjana]

I tend to agree, especially in the more extreme cases of people falling for every hyped up thing that tickles their fancy. I see this a lot of other forums more than here and it amazes me that these people don't get totally disillusioned after a while of things that they "know" not panning out. I think it's all part of the learning process, though. To learn to be more discerning.

But I think there is another side of this coin, where people fetishize not knowing and mystery. Sometimes it seems to me this can result from an unwillingness to connect the dots that are right in front of them. This is certainly more socially acceptable and involves less risk. I think those people need to respect that there are individuals, based on their experience, that feel they do not have the luxury of disbelief when it comes to certain topics.

Personally, I can actually put on and take off belief systems like clothing and know that's what I'm doing. I can try them on and drop them when they no longer serve any purpose. I like to explore belief systems from the inside as a form of subjective experiment, because I think there are some aspects of reality you can't access unless you have at least some provisional form of belief, or at least a suspension of disbelief (which can be reasserted later.) This is an approach I picked up from Robert Anton Wilson. More people should read his books, I think....like The Cosmic Trigger and Prometheus Rising.

[blufire]

At the point I have substantiated proof is the point I have belief in something.

Do I believe in that ‘something’ forever?

NO . . . . . . .

Because at the point the evidence in the belief can no longer be validated then I let it go.

I believe (hee hee) that could be called personal growth.

[RMorgan]

I tend to agree, especially in the more extreme cases of people falling for every hyped up thing that tickles their fancy. I see this a lot of other forums more than here and it amazes me that these people don't get totally disillusioned after a while of things that they "know" not panning out. I think it's all part of the learning process, though. To learn to be more discerning.

But I think there is another side of this coin, where people fetishize not knowing and mystery. Sometimes it seems to me this can result from an unwillingness to connect the dots that are right in front of them. This is certainly more socially acceptable and involves less risk. I think those people need to respect that there are individuals, based on their experience, that feel they do not have the luxury of disbelief when it comes to certain topics.

Personally, I can actually put on and take off belief systems like clothing and know that's what I'm doing. I can try them on and drop them when they no longer serve any purpose. I like to explore belief systems from the inside as a form of subjective experiment, because I think there are some aspects of reality you can't access unless you have at least some provisional form of belief, or at least a suspension of disbelief (which can be reasserted later.) This is an approach I picked up from Robert Anton Wilson. More people should read his books, I think....like The Cosmic Trigger and Prometheus Rising.


I like Robert Anton Wilson´s approach when he says "I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions" as well.

It´s a good approach to prevent from falsely transforming a belief into a truth, permitting one to be open minded but suspicious at the same time.

I would qualify this approach as healthy skepticism.

Raf.

[Maunagarjana]

I like Robert Anton Wilson´s approach when he says "I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions" as well.

It´s a good approach to prevent from falsely transforming a belief into a truth, permitting one to be open minded at the same time.

I would qualify this approach as healthy skepticism.

Raf.

Yes. About the quote, I think that's a good soundbyte and all, but I think everyone has beliefs. Some may dispute this, but I would say they are not being honest with themselves. I think it would be more accurate to say, "I try to believe as little as I can reasonably get away with, but I have many suspicions, and of some of my strongest suspicions at times are indistinguishable by other people from beliefs. They just don't fool me, at least most of the time." ;)

[deridan]

with you on what you say in the OP,

i think this shows up something about 2012, and the preparation towards it.
many belief systems/goals got put forth.

So, wouldn´t it be more effective for us, truth seekers, to continue our journey with total intellectual, psychological and spiritual freedom, without being attached to the need to believe and without fearing to admit that we don´t know a lot of things?

maybe the movement carries well beyond 2012, exactly cause it got improperly done,
maybe people can get disrupted from beliefs adapted from a fear impetus,,,, either the intellectual,psy or spir side would not be in tune,

for a proper soak, it gets absorbed because it is some sort of aesthetic(still a cat to my ball of wool),...all parts in tune,,,,its a gradual soak,
some beliefs have to be maintained in a visualization, allowing 'higher mirror worlds' to sink with this [r],
like how in one ordering of universalcreationalemmanation windows, this is called realm of 'active thought'

[RMorgan]

I like Robert Anton Wilson´s approach when he says "I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions" as well.

It´s a good approach to prevent from falsely transforming a belief into a truth, permitting one to be open minded at the same time.

I would qualify this approach as healthy skepticism.

Raf.

Yes. About the quote, I think that's a good soundbyte and all, but I think everyone has beliefs. Some may dispute this, but I would say they are not being honest with themselves. I think it would be more accurate to say, "I try to believe as little as I can reasonably get away with, but I have many suspicions, and of some of my strongest suspicions at times are indistinguishable by other people from beliefs. They just don't fool me, at least most of the time." ;)

I agree 100%.

To be honest, it´s really impossible to not have at least a handful of beliefs; at least the basic ones.

I´m mostly concerned about what I call "belief junkies", who are persons who can believe the most far fetched and unfounded information without having discernment even to make some basic questions.

Let´s examine this situation:

A person watches a video on youtube of a guy saying a lot of unfounded things, coupled with a nice overall presentation and cool new age soundtrack.

-Some people simply blindly believe the video and incorporate it into their belief system.

-Other persons, who also don´t even know the guy, resource to credibility, which is basically collected opinions from a bunch of people they don´t even know as well.

-Other people believe the video because someone else they know, but don´t necessarily really trust, vouched for the presenter.

All these people resourced to external sources to decide believing in the video, but none of them actually took the time and efforts to actually study the presented subjects in order to conclude if the source is reliable or not.

This causes conflict, because trust is a serious problem in the contemporary society. People lock their doors at night, because they don´t trust other people and don´t trust the police either; People don´t trust the government and most institutions; Most people don´t actually really trust anyone besides their closest friend and family.

So, why people just trust some guy they don´t even know "mumble jumbling" on a youtube video?

Even when people resource to credibility, they don´t realize that credibility is the most used commercial artifice used to sell all sorts of bad products nowadays. Credibility is very rarely authentic since the invention of marketing.

Some people may argue they believe it because it "resonates"...Well, resonation can make music but can destroy entire castles as well. Besides, there are plenty disinformation sources out there to "resonate" with all kinds of people.

To make things worse, even after a certain person stops believing the guy in the video, most of the times he/she becomes addicted to this process of looking for something to believe, which leaves the person in this eternal cycle of living a life through other people´s ideas and concepts, inhibiting him/her to develop authentic thoughts and conclusions.

This process has intensified since the internet invention, specially you tube. I suspect that, since the internet is a completely new way of receiving information, we haven´t developed a natural psychological filter for the information it provides. It´s so fascinating that most people loose discernment.

Our brains and neurological structure haven´t adapted yet to properly process this unprecedented amount of information, making everyone of us very vulnerable to it.

This makes my "conspiracy theorist" alarm ring constantly. The internet wouldn´t be there if "they" didn´t want; They own its whole structure, from cabling and servers to satellites. Maybe the internet is the ultimate weapon to program people, just like the TV was before, only a thousand times worse.

I don´t see the level of gullibility on real life situations as I see on internet related issues.

Raf.

[Maunagarjana]

This process has intensified since the internet invention, specially you tube. I suspect that, since the internet is a completely new way of receiving information, we haven´t developed a natural psychological filter for the information it provides. It´s so fascinating that most people loose discernment.

Yes, it is new. YouTube is only 5 or 6 years old. So people are just beginning to learn how to develop their BS detectors with it. Young people are actually growing up with YouTube.

[Flash]

Young people are actually growing up with YouTube.

yes, scary

[Hughe]

Non emotional is logic, feeling is belief. Yet they blend, down below the idea of conscious thinking. who's to say where the line lies?

Mixing the two together is usually an unrealized aspect of complex human function, that we each indulge in, in every thought that comes into being.

Feeling is lower form of telepathy. Empathy is higher form of emotion. Telepathy is universal language.

I see good number of enlightened people show simplified behavior. Maybe they got tired of information overloading or don't want to deal with complex reality any more. "Every thing is fine. We are infinite consciousness. Love and light!" The worst case is "Everything is illusion.", religious fanatics exactly has the same mind set. "The God will save us."

My logic is if we come from infinite consciousness, we must maintain "self awareness" all time. Without self awareness and feed back mechanism, consciousness can't accumulate or experience its expression in objective way. How can collective intelligence move forward if all individuals always start from blank state?

Life is sacred. Belief systems should serve for life not opposite. Humans got lost the meaning of life by deliberate manipulations. What if all races, nations, and cultures respect life as sacred being?

"Everything is illusion" is absurd. Reborn of egocentric, stupid world view.
Apes have own language, concept of life after death. What does it mean?
Scientists suggest dolphins and whales are advanced than humans based on brain mass and neurons activities. One scientist discovered dolphins sounds could be represented as Clifford algebra decades ago, which means dolphins do intelligent communication among them.

What about ETs and aliens? Isn't it heavy stuff? As soon as one accept their existence, everything will fall apart. Maybe this fear of loss keeps people stop looking into facts objectively.

Between late 1960s and early 1970s, scientists under secret programs discovered mathematical models of consciousness, physic energy. Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a mind manipulation(?) technique for behavior modification and changing belief system. Belief system influences manifestation of physical reality of person/collective.

Who uses NLP extensively? MSM, entertainment industry. Every sound, word, and image frame by frame from MSM are edited, filtered by somebody out there. Stupidity and insanity of modern society from top to bottom are engineered.

Isn't it wonderful to learn/explore stuff during sleep? People can learn lucid dream technique. It's mostly figured out by scientists. Talking with pets telepathically would be nice. I would suggest keep learning and being practical for oneself.

[PHARAOH]

"BELIEF" hmmm.... The acceptance of things/ theories we do not "KNOW".

"EYE KNOW SUM THINGS UP"!!!

[gooty64]

Something happened to me last year that was so "out of this world" that it is still hard for me to believe it really happened. If not for the photograph of the evidence that it happened to me, I would really have a hard time believing it wasn't something I dreamed.

[Dorjezigzag]

This process has intensified since the internet invention, specially you tube. I suspect that, since the internet is a completely new way of receiving information, we haven´t developed a natural psychological filter for the information it provides. It´s so fascinating that most people loose discernment.

Yes, it is new. YouTube is only 5 or 6 years old. So people are just beginning to learn how to develop their BS detectors with it. Young people are actually growing up with YouTube.

I can see that it could be very negative with certain kids but I actually think mine has benefited from being part of the youtube generation. Whereas we as kids when we were presented information in generations gone by it was presented to us as gospel, when actually we now realize so much of it was hog wash. Now many kids will question what they are taught, they have more awareness of various agendas

Mine is incredibly skeptical, while being open minded at the same time for his young age and he has actually talked to me about a lot of the topics on this forum without me bringing them up. I see him developing a strong questioning mind. Sometimes I do worry that they are being exposed to too much information too early though

[Chester]

People create a belief, because they think they do not 'know', which does not make sense. If there is a 'being' then it must have the quality of knowing, of being aware. That does not need a belief.
This is so provable for without it we would be a vegetable!

All wisdom stems from there.
Unfortunately because they do not recognise this, people are confused by incomplete information, which does not produce confidence, so therefore they fear.

Amazed,
Tony

Hey Tony,

We do have consciousness, we do think and we are aware, therefore, we know. I agree with that. I never said we don´t know anything; I said we don´t know many things.

However, my point is that, in the grand scheme of the universe, we don´t know a lot things, at least consciously.

By the fear of not knowing such things, which will probably remain a mystery for a long time, people fabricate information and make up stories in order to palliatively fill the gap left by ignorance.

People just can´t live with the unknown, therefore they use beliefs as a mechanism to artificially suppress their insecurity, inevitably causing conflict.

Cheers,

Raf.

Hi Raf, you are one of the posters here that really gets me thinking sometimes. I appreciate your views primarily because of the confidence I get the feeling you have in yourself and thus the views.

Here's a take on one of your points -


People just can´t live with the unknown, therefore they use beliefs as a mechanism to artificially suppress their insecurity, inevitably causing conflict.

I am an odds maker by trade and part of what I have to do is come up with possibility sets of potential outcomes. Most of the time it is two way events such as the last US Presidential election. Sometimes there may be many possibilities within the possibility set.

Now, awhile back I started applying an approach to life I call possibility hopping. What I do is I try on a "belief" to see if the belief ends up becoming a truth (or not) for myself. So I make a bet on a possibility and then see if that bet actually produces a truth. Now the next step is that once I establish a truth, I then try and reconcile that truth with my other truths. Sometimes I can, sometimes I cannot. When I can't I go through the process of exploring which truth is more acceptable to me or not. Eventually, I have ended up with a relatively solid foundation as to a core or central truth from which the rest of me springs.

This summarizes the process I have followed to get to where I am at now which what I have characterized as having discovered the last thing I need to know about myself which is - that I am a quantum being.

And that I have discovered this to my complete satisfaction makes me a realized quantum being.

So, not everyone "believes" things for the reasons you stated... some of us try beliefs on like some people try on clothes... just to see how they feel wearing them.

Now for my last point - Truth is what is true the moment you decide it is true. And there is one really true thing about truth... it usually changes.

"Usually?" the voice asks... "Tell me one that doesn't change."

When I look into the eyes of my wife, my step-daughter and my sons I know that I love them and that my love for them is a truth that will never, no matter what, ever change.

All the rest of my truths might change.

Love to Ya, Raf... Chester

EDIT: - in being as honest as I can... I probably did start out as you suggest.. haha Yep... that is true.

[Carmen]

Beliefs are just that, "beliefs". They are necessary for exploration because the extreme of not believing anything is "doubting" everything! And to doubt everything is to be closeminded, locked in a box! But unless belief advances to the knowing of experience it remains conjecture and is not applicable to ones life. I take the position of including all information I read or hear but I do not judge it usually. Often events or information are backed up from other sources or I may have a direct experience. Then I know and do not merely believe. Observation beyond the duality of good and bad, truth and untruth is helpful to the expansion of knowledge.

[13th Warrior]

Young people are actually growing up with YouTube.

yes, scary


YouTube is a most excellent resource!

Everyone knows video is fake but, books on the other hand...if it's written then it must be true!

[RMorgan]

Young people are actually growing up with YouTube.

yes, scary


YouTube is a most excellent resource!

Everyone knows video is fake but, books on the other hand...if it's written then it must be true!

Well, the problem with youtube videos is that anyone can make one in a couple of days, saying whatever they want to say.

This is good, it´s freedom of speech, but also brings a lot of nonsense. In fact, I don´t remember the last time I watched a youtube video, related to alternative fields, that wasn´t flawed and misleading in at least one of its basic principles.

A few weeks ago I read an article by one of the major UFOlogists on how youtube is killing UFOlogy; There are so many fake UFO videos out there, that is close to impossible to properly investigate each one of them and make a good case.

The guy in this video talks about it; This video actually covers all this issue, not only UFOs:

sKDJW6eUxO8

Writing a book, on the other hand, is an exhaustive process. If you want your book to be taken seriously, you have to describe your research sources, so the reader can verify if these sources are reliable and if the book is based on serious studies or not. Besides, books don´t have the artifices of soundtrack and visual effects; its just words and what really matters is the content.

Of course, we have the problem of ebooks nowadays. Anyone can publish an ebook, which is both good and bad, for the same reasons of the videos. A lot of pseudo-science books are published every year, that aren´t even close to be scientifically accurate to be published by a serious scientific book publisher.

So, the freedom of speech that arrived with the internet is very delicate; It´s only really useful when people are educated enough to know that with real freedom comes real responsibility.

People are supposed to speak the content of their minds, not of their intestines, if you know what I mean.

Raf.

[13th Warrior]

Well, the problem with youtube videos is that anyone can make one in a couple of days, saying whatever they want to say.

Well, if this is all you are looking for or finding on YouTube; then I see your point.

[RMorgan]

Well, the problem with youtube videos is that anyone can make one in a couple of days, saying whatever they want to say.

Well, if this is all you are looking for or finding on YouTube; then I see your point.

Well, of course I try to avoid such kind of videos when looking for something on youtube.

However, often the good stuff is really hard to find among so much crap.

The same applies to Google or other search engines, where information is ranked by popularity. The real good stuff is rarely popular (this principle can be applied to every field - music, arts, science,etc...)

[13th Warrior]

Well, the problem with youtube videos is that anyone can make one in a couple of days, saying whatever they want to say.

Well, if this is all you are looking for or finding on YouTube; then I see your point.

Well, of course I try to avoid such kind of videos when looking for something on youtube.

However, often the good stuff is really hard to find among so much crap.

The same applies to Google or other search engines, where information is ranked by popularity. The real good stuff is rarely popular (this principle can be applied to every field - music, arts, science,etc...)

You seem surprised(frustrated) that a random search would reveal random results?

[RMorgan]

Well, the problem with youtube videos is that anyone can make one in a couple of days, saying whatever they want to say.

Well, if this is all you are looking for or finding on YouTube; then I see your point.

Well, of course I try to avoid such kind of videos when looking for something on youtube.

However, often the good stuff is really hard to find among so much crap.

The same applies to Google or other search engines, where information is ranked by popularity. The real good stuff is rarely popular (this principle can be applied to every field - music, arts, science,etc...)

You seem surprised(frustrated) that a random search would reveal random results?

No...I´m not either surprised or frustrated. Looks like you have misinterpreted my statements.

Also, there´s no randomness in any sort of internet search engines.

Actually, this is exactly what worries me. When you type a search word on google, let´s say "Illuminati" as an example, some links will appear in the first results, others wont (of course).

Links and videos are ranked by popularity, which might either be legitimate popularity or artificial popularity achieved with the help of SEO (Search Engine Optimization) techniques.

Besides the SEO techniques, which are used all over the world by web designers, how do we know if some other organization or agency isn´t choosing what links will rank better and ultimately will be most accessed?

Researches point that people rarely go beyond the 4th page of search results. So, what if these results are deliberately selected, specially information relating to delicate subjects, in order to shape the public´s mindset, in order to control what information will be absorbed?

The controllers have learned for a long time that controlling people through the illusion of freedom is much easier and effective than direct tyranny. This strategy is perfectly applicable to the internet as well, since we don´t know what´s really going on behind the curtains in companies like google.

Also, we all know who owns the whole internet structure; They´re not good guys, for sure. Do you think these people are interested to give people real informational freedom trough the internet?

In my opinion, the internet is the new TV, ultimately made to manipulate people; The difference is that it uses much more complex and advanced strategies.

Google is investing billions in the research of new algorithms that will give each one of us custom search results, based on previously collected information about each individual´s research history.

They are doing so in order to show you what THEY decide to show you, which means that soon enough they´ll have the power to shape opinions and mindsets more effectively than ever.

[13th Warrior]

Perhaps my use of the word random was incorrect?

I understand how search engines work.

If you search "Illuminati" you are going to get a lot of hits because it's a complex subject. That's perfect if you know nothing about the Illuminati.

If you are looking for a specific aspect of the Illuminati then your key words should be chosen more carefully.

Who ever said good research was easy and non labor intensive?

[Tarka the Duck]

Hello Raf

Thanks for this thread - it's such an important issue that goes far beyond our individual choice of subscribing to a belief system.

People have tortured and killed each other in wars, inquisitions, and political actions for centuries, and they are still imposing their beliefs in religion and political ideology on others. Beliefs seem to create more social problems than they can ever even pretend to solve. The problem is that belief has no need to establish a base line of evidence: when you act, is it better to act out of belief or out of knowledge?
The so-called "Virgin Cure" shows the damage holding a strong belief can do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_cleansing_myth

Nearly 60 children - many of pre-school age - are raped every day in South Africa.
The pervasive belief that the Virgin Cure prevents/cures HIV/Aids is said to be at least partly responsible. This myth is not confined to South Africa (it is also widely believed in India and Thailand), but that country has the highest incidence of rape and child rape in the world: 21,000 child rapes were reported last year.

And it's not only children who are seen as virgins: individuals who are "blind, deaf, physically impaired, intellectually disabled, or who have mental-health disabilities" are raped under the belief that individuals with disabilities are sexually inactive and therefore virgins.

Of course, there are other contributory factors to this (including poverty, male entitlement and gender inequality), but as long as people believe those who tell them that the blood of a virgin will cure the virus in an infected person's blood, this nightmare will continue.

http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/april/virgin.htm

[Molly]

I'm more of a scientific person. But i can understand why some people hold certain beliefs & i try to respect that & not push the way i think onto them or if they're being pushy to me, i try to not let it bother me too much. I'm even at a point in life where i don't even think there is any much solid "truth" to anything, because it varies person to person & also "truth" changes over time. Okay if a tree falls in the forest & no one is around to hear it, yes, the truth is is that it fell lol that's about as much "truth" i can see now a days. There are so many different ways to explain so many different things but the fact still remains that we're all just souls/energy in our organic matter moving through what we think is time & even time itself may not be an entire truth. All i know is i don't know much of CRAP & i'm okay with that.

[161803398]

I think people try to put the pieces together. If they have enough pieces to form a picture that might become a belief depending upon the individual's personal standards of proof. Some people are fussier than other people. I don't think there is a necessary connection between belief and fear although there certainly seems to be one in regard to some people's desire to have a daddy or mommy throughout their lives. But some people believe in things that are quite scary.

[markpierre]

Hey folks,


If the need to believe is indeed motivated by the fear of not knowing, the insecurity of feeling ignorant, then how can beliefs be considered a good thing, if they are fundamentally motivated by fear?

I´m really interested to listen to your opinions about that.

Cheers,

Raf.

That title is powerful Raf, it's like a teaching.

I know that fear, we all know that fear. It's one of the layers of passage. There are lots of identities to try still to use,
but none of them can contain truth once it's begun to leak. I did paranoid fruitcake, then freaked out, then student, then teacher then other stuff,
and now back to paranoid and freaking fruitcake. Next phase is a child-like state, and that's what we're after. Post-belief.

Fear squeezes you. It pinches the life and genuineness out of you. Like dead. You become nothing. Who the hell is there to look for, if the searcher is afraid of finding?