How Are the Two of You Doing?

[markpierre]

I'd like to ask this question of people who experience this; that you're aware of yourself observing yourself.
I'm sure many people do, but I never hear about it.

And anyone who is aware of it, are you finding yourself playing with it a bit? And studying it?
Wondering sometimes who is this other guy? You Eastern guys and mediators, I love you, but keep the language real.

I'll tell you what I'm experiencing now, and it's been developing for a while, and it's also been there in retrospect a lot further back from when I actually really experienced it. Talking several years.
Of 20 years of hard work, that's really not very long.

But just a little lead up.

The names are mark and Mark. mark is the 'me' I've lived with all these years.

mark's a nice fella. He's kind and considerate and he knows all kinds of spiritual stuff and he applies it. He also lives in shadows of some pretty grueling stuff,
and has panic attacks and anxiety that aren't a bother anymore, but he behaves as though they are.
All kinds of good stuff, you'd like him if you ever met him, but then he might just get up suddenly and disappear.
He carries himself like he's waring the weight of the world, and his nervous system suggests that he actually does.
You won't see him very often.
He had a tendency to be too helpful, and then suddenly stopped being helpful at all.
He doesn't like to intrude which seems polite, but it's because he despises intrusions.
A very private guy.
He squirms when he's listening to stories. He gets hurt instead of angry when he's offended or unjustly treated.
But you don't worry about him because he has discipline and recovers really quickly. Lovable, but weird.

And I first became aware of Mark in a crisis moment, when some entirely alien (to me) 'other' individual stepped in and took control.
Now I'm very rehearsed at channeling, and it was nothing like that. It was a full body experience that 'I' was having.
Actually, in fact, he did literally save my physical life.

But I recognized this guy, though I didn't. He took 'our' body through a series of really difficult events and didn't even acknowledge phobias that had paralyzed me.
I mean paralyzed. Frozen. Living rigamortis in an energetic sense. No action by mark was forthcoming.

This went on for a period until some things were organized and settled, and the ball was rolling.
Mark made some powerful friends along the way who would later advocate for whatever it was he told them. mark didn't notice really what was said, he was just enjoying the spectacle.
Mark has one of those personalities that makes you think 'what hit me?'. But it's calm and direct and it's clear. He makes you feel like he loves you and you'll trust him because you can..

Then one day I was fully mark, and I didn't really notice the transition. So who was this guy?

I had some experiences where I thought I'd glimpsed him but wasn't sure, but I was just waiting for some bad opportunity to manifest so I could see that again.
I'm not kidding. The next crushing blow. I always expect that. That's my motice operandi. Don't laugh.
But the point is, I'd have risked another tragedy to witness Mark do his stuff again.
Because one of his talents was that he shared the experience with me. It was cooler than an imax ride.

Now because I've always been an observer, I knew that I was watching 2 things now, or so it seemed. So it's the observer and these two other guys.
What's that? What would that be? Triality? Bloody hell, a triple schizophrenic. That's my style.

So this isn't a problem, or perplexing, it's actually quite beautiful. Because I recently realized that the watcher is really Mark. The guy who's supposed to be wearing this body.
he knows how to use it, what it's for.
mark operates it from a distance, actually rarely even gets in it.
And Mark's been there forever, because I remember that feeling as a kid. Being not really there, but just enjoying. Feeling the body, but not so worried about it. Or self conscious.

And he's been just sitting there, just behind the right side of my head, and watching. Not doing or thinking a damn thing.
Patient bastard, just waiting for something.
No reaction, no advice, but having a lot of conversations with mark. Sounds like he couldn't if he's silent,
but he does it. mark just thinks it's mark talking to himself.

And what else I can see is that these two are melting together, ever so slowly and subtly,
so that really, I'm not sure if there's a way to distinguish between them.
Apart from the tension that's often there.
Like we're both doing the observing, and we're both doing the bitching.
We still need to be alone, both of us, but we don't mind it if we're not anymore.
That is truly different.

I want to ask you; you guys that know about this apart from the spiritual concepts,
because I know all of those.
This is a direct and almost bizarre experience. By bizarre I don't mean unnatural at all, but a phenomena.

Is this all it is? Is this what we made such a big deal about?

[Cristian]

Narrator: Tyler, what the **** is going on here?
Tyler Durden: I ask you for one thing, one simple thing.
Narrator: Why do people think that I'm you? Answer me!
Tyler Durden: Sit.
Narrator: Now answer me, why do people think that I'm you.
Tyler Durden: I think you know.
Narrator: No, I don't.
Tyler Durden: Yes, you do. Why would anyone possibly confuse you with me?
Narrator: Uh... I... I don't know.
[Random flashbacks]
Tyler Durden: You got it.
Narrator: No.
Tyler Durden: Say it.
Narrator: Because...
Tyler Durden: Say it.
Narrator: Because we're the same person.
Tyler Durden: That's right

[markpierre]

Narrator: Tyler, what the **** is going on here?
Tyler Durden: I ask you for one thing, one simple thing.
Narrator: Why do people think that I'm you? Answer me!
Tyler Durden: Sit.
Narrator: Now answer me, why do people think that I'm you.
Tyler Durden: I think you know.
Narrator: No, I don't.
Tyler Durden: Yes, you do. Why would anyone possibly confuse you with me?
Narrator: Uh... I... I don't know.
[Random flashbacks]
Tyler Durden: You got it.
Narrator: No.
Tyler Durden: Say it.
Narrator: Because...
Tyler Durden: Say it.
Narrator: Because we're the same person.
Tyler Durden: That's right

Haha thanks. I've seen that so many times and thought, 'yes, that's exactly it'.

But now it feels like it isn't anymore. It isn't the explanation for this.

It feels like this is the explanation for that.

[soleil]

i dont think that is the way it is for me......i am very much in control and have learned to overcome fears (still learning im sure). but never have i been in that situation.

i think you can still look into this deeper for yourself though to find out who Mark really is. :):pizza:

[markpierre]

i dont think that is the way it is for me......i am very much in control and have learned to overcome fears (still learning im sure). but never have i been in that situation.

i think you can still look into this deeper for yourself though to find out who Mark really is. :):pizza:

Hey ya. Maybe it's just some form of madness.

[The23rdman]

Mark, are you aware of this theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness)? You may find your answers in meta-realities. :)

[markpierre]

Mark, are you aware of this theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness)? You may find your answers in meta-realities. :)

That's interesting stuff. Thanks. I'll load up on language.
But I'm not looking for an answer for it. I'm describing to you an experience that is the answer.

[Limor Wolf]

Geez, Mark, you are touching a piece of life that is so complex and beautiful and important. I call it - 'the observer' , there is YOU and there is the one that looks at things from the outside, although it is still you, and there are sometimes three, one that participate, one that observe the participation, and one that looks at things from a much higher point of view, now, what all those are doing in one body??

For me, there is almost no point when the two or three are not present when I am with other people, which is a cause for anxiety, and when I am alone (which I mostly prefer) it is the most complete feeling.


" What's that? What would that be? "


At one point I played with the idea that it's three segments of the same soul, parts of our higher self (It is known that the body can not contain the entire soul). or maybe there are separate souls which are sharing the same body, like in a guest house.

Well, if that will not make the moderators dial 911, I don't know what will :p



Much love to all three of you,

Limor

[Tony]

Translating experience is not easy, because we all seem to use words differently, and anyway, words are only an approximation.

There are not two beings, but only a seeming duality.
There is awareness without comment, and there is awareness with comment: it is the same awareness, but from stillness awareness, has merely become active.
This is not an eastern idea...it is pure logic.

We all hold different ideas about ourselves - a different picture. So there can be no single answer. There is merely the next step for that individual.

Our pure being has become so used to chatting and commenting on whatever it perceives that it mistakes that chattering and commenting as being itself. I have a neighbour who is very intelligent, but who believes that he is only the accumulation of all his knowledge and he is very proud of his acquisition – but he is not a happy man.

In the very first instance of being aware, there are no comments, no chattering. One merely perceives shapes and colours, but they are not identified : that reflects the knowing quality of our recognition of our pure being. The thinking, chattering mind, with all its words and concepts, will then comment and judge: pure awareness already knows.

This is not something one can speculate about: one has to meditate, be still, and observe the thinking mind taking charge. It is pure being that notes this and lets go, like a clear mirror. Like writing on water. But the habitual thinking mind holds on! We are so caught up in our familiar surroundings and our thoughts about our surroundings, that it has become a living dream.

Unfortunately, there is another side to this...even though one recognises that first moment of awareness, life still throws up habitual patterning because of the residue of past actions and ideas in the mind. We have to just accept that.

Gradually, that which needs to be revealed is revealed, and that which needs to be dropped will drop away. One cannot go faster than one can understand.

That pure awareness could be called God Consciousness.

Tony

[gooty64]

alan says, I want to understand
Alan says, I see you wanting to understand
alan says, stop looking at me then
Alan says, ...................

(to be continued)

[Fred Steeves]

It's often a toss up who's running this body, fred or Fred. It used to always be a one man show, the fred show, but more often than not these days it's a combination of both. fred is usually unaware that he is even being fred, until he starts getting really worked up about something, and that's when Fred loves to point out how utterly hysterical this is.

Fred and fred are best of friends, and they have been through a lot together, but fred is getting tired. fred doesn't like to admit this of course, but he's also realizing how much more smoothly things go when Fred is running the show, and how it's also a lot more fun. http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif

[eaglespirit]

The 'understanding' is accelerating in the now because the personal experience of 'it' has become literally 'alive' as it has ever been and more and more are simply living it and the doubting Thomas's all around us are going to come around because it is inevitable...that is all this ascension and entrainment mumbo jumbo is.

We are putting the mind to rest and the heart to work.

Crazy simple it is : )

[markpierre]

The 'understanding' is accelerating in the now because the personal experience of 'it' has become literally 'alive' as it has ever been and more and more are simply living it and the doubting Thomas's all around us are going to come around because it is inevitable...that is all this ascension and entrainment mumbo jumbo is.

We are putting the mind to rest and the heart to work.

Crazy simple it is : )

It's like that 'blending' is careful and deliberate. Like the ego mind is too easy to confront to be willing to let itself not be continually identifying itself with it's thoughts.

But if it slips, and that happens often enough it can't help but notice it's not alone and not in charge.

My illumination 22 years ago was an 'effect' of a disaster/trauma. So it gets much bigger than this little event. It's a taste of that illumination.
Close enough for entertainments sake.

[The23rdman]

I had a spontaneous awakening 15 years ago that included the awareness of my 'higher self' for want of a better term. After practising the Golden Dawn ritual The Holy Guardian Angel I came to understand that as a means to experience the same thing. This HS felt like it was generally above and behind me and I was aware and watching life unfold through this along with my body. It would move around in conversation or social situations and become my third person witness preventing silly social faux pas and allowing me to feel and empathise with others. This level of consciousness takes a lot of energy to maintain, however, and at the time I didn't appreciate it enough to continue to cultivate it and I fell back to sleep.

[bram]

Hey mate,

So mark is your normal mind state, complete with egoic concerns, and Mark is your body consciousness which pops out in times of danger to make sure you dont eff up the vehicle that carries you around? Like when you suddenly react to a sudden danger without consciously thinking about it.

And the third guy is the silent witness, your pure consciousness. He's gonna spend most of his time watching you thinking your circular thoughts.

Just a guess.

Love, bram

[markpierre]

I had a spontaneous awakening 15 years ago that included the awareness of my 'higher self' for want of a better term. After practising the Golden Dawn ritual The Holy Guardian Angel I came to understand that as a means to experience the same thing. This HS felt like it was generally above and behind me and I was aware and watching life unfold through this along with my body. It would move around in conversation or social situations and become my third person witness preventing silly social faux pas and allowing me to feel and empathise with others. This level of consciousness takes a lot of energy to maintain, however, and at the time I didn't appreciate it enough to continue to cultivate it and I fell back to sleep.

That's partly the point I think. Once you're in you're in. I mean the real You.

It doesn't make any sense to me that if you know you fell asleep, that you could have been sleeping. Just resting perhaps.

Getting ready to spring.

[Tony]

I dream of being awake!

[markpierre]

I dream of being awake!

It's interesting that in A Course in Miracles Jesus say's that you dream yourself awake. But it's an occurrence. A process yet an occurrence that results in an effect.
An effect isn't transient. It's a fundamental change that doesn't revert.

It's wild to actually experience, in form, what all that stuff was saying..

[Carolin]

I consider the first me to be my "ego". It tends to create drama (usually only in my head) and run amok if unsupervised. It offends easily and considers life to be unfair. It can be a whining sniveling malcontent that is full of fear if left unchecked.

I consider the second me to be my "higher self". It's my go to self........for advice, inspiration, and reassurance. I now call on it (me) many times a day. Funny, I was just wondering the other day why I can't seem to make a decision without it anymore. It assures me that all is well and everything is happening for a reason.

I guess the third me is neutral like Switzerland. It would be nice if they would all meld into one.

[Pam]

Markpierre, thank you so much for being so open. I trynor to have any intellectual theory here and relate my personal observations. First of all I experience a highly emotional self. One that is very self protective. The one that doe not trust. Over the past couple of years I have begun to observe that this "self" seem to work off of a couple of themes. It tends to like to manipulate the thinking process to end up with feelings of 'righteous indignation' or' martyrdom'. I notice that this self will bring up any one of a group of stories(over and over again ad nauseum) or will interpret a event to reinforce those feelings.Buying into this process of thinking created an untrusting and rather withdrawn, highly sensitive self. Frequently the interpretation of the event is inaccurate.Then there is another aspect of self that is aware of the previous mentioned self. It can now through a lot of training recognize the first self. For years I worked off of the first self treating it's interpretation of the world as gospel truth. The second aspect of self is more logical, is not ruled by emotion and is mostly present in the moment. This self is the aspect that gets things done.The one that"gets me out of myself"Then.....there is yet another one...and that one is the observer..seldom heard but frequently felt when out in nature. There seems to be feelings of gratitude and a calm type of bliss associated with this aspect..I believe this must be the self of enlightenment. In my experience the observer is never involved with the chattering in my head or the banter between the firs two aspects of self. It will not butt in to these thoughts. The only time I have communion with the observer is if I quiet my head by being in the current moment....I hope this made some sort of sense.... pammy

[markpierre]

I consider the first me to be my "ego". It tends to create drama (usually only in my head) and run amok if unsupervised. It offends easily and considers life to be unfair. It can be a whining sniveling malcontent that is full of fear if left unchecked.

I consider the second me to be my "higher self". It's my go to self........for advice, inspiration, and reassurance. I now call on it (me) many times a day. Funny, I was just wondering the other day why I can't seem to make a decision without it anymore. It assures me that all is well and everything is happening for a reason.

I guess the third me is neutral like Switzerland. It would be nice if they would all meld into one.

But isn't it kind of weird that we separate the two, if both are present. Isn't it really just an issue of which aspect of our same mind we want to use? That's how it's appearing.
What I've always known, is that by asking mySelf for an answer, the right answer is made available. But it's me asking the question, and going for the answer. That's the action.
And so I do use that aspect for it's purpose. It's never not paying attention or out of service..
But shouldn't it be a more dynamic experience, where the mind that initiates the action is the one that knows what's right? I think that's what's occurring anyway.
We call them karmic experiences until we've used our karma up. Then what? No more need for unpleasant lessons.
I think that's the end result of transformation.

[markpierre]

Markpierre, thank you so much for being so open. I trynor to have any intellectual theory here and relate my personal observations. First of all I experience a highly emotional self. One that is very self protective. The one that doe not trust. Over the past couple of years I have begun to observe that this "self" seem to work off of a couple of themes. It tends to like to manipulate the thinking process to end up with feelings of 'righteous indignation' or' martyrdom'. I notice that this self will bring up any one of a group of stories(over and over again ad nauseum) or will interpret a event to reinforce those feelings.Buying into this process of thinking created an untrusting and rather withdrawn, highly sensitive self. Frequently the interpretation of the event is inaccurate.Then there is another aspect of self that is aware of the previous mentioned self. It can now through a lot of training recognize the first self. For years I worked off of the first self treating it's interpretation of the world as gospel truth. The second aspect of self is more logical, is not ruled by emotion and is mostly present in the moment. This self is the aspect that gets things done.The one that"gets me out of myself"Then.....there is yet another one...and that one is the observer..seldom heard but frequently felt when out in nature. There seems to be feelings of gratitude and a calm type of bliss associated with this aspect..I believe this must be the self of enlightenment. In my experience the observer is never involved with the chattering in my head or the banter between the firs two aspects of self. It will not butt in to these thoughts. The only time I have communion with the observer is if I quiet my head by being in the current moment....I hope this made some sort of sense.... pammy

Lots of sense. Exactly what I hope to hear from anyone. I just want to bring this thing out a little more and have a look at it,
because if you or anyone are like me, we've put a very important dynamic just in reach, but almost out of sight.
And let the mind chatter on long enough about what it isn't, instead of what it is.

[Carolin]

I consider the first me to be my "ego". It tends to create drama (usually only in my head) and run amok if unsupervised. It offends easily and considers life to be unfair. It can be a whining sniveling malcontent that is full of fear if left unchecked.

I consider the second me to be my "higher self". It's my go to self........for advice, inspiration, and reassurance. I now call on it (me) many times a day. Funny, I was just wondering the other day why I can't seem to make a decision without it anymore. It assures me that all is well and everything is happening for a reason.

I guess the third me is neutral like Switzerland. It would be nice if they would all meld into one.

But isn't it kind of weird that we separate the two, if both are present. Isn't it really just an issue of which aspect of our same mind we want to use? That's how it's appearing.
What I've always known, is that by asking mySelf for an answer, the right answer is made available. But it's me asking the question, and going for the answer. That's the action.
And so I do use that aspect for it's purpose. It's never not paying attention or out of service..
But shouldn't it be a more dynamic experience, where the mind that initiates the action is the one that knows what's right? I think that's what's occurring anyway.
We call them karmic experiences until we've used our karma up. Then what? No more need for unpleasant lessons.
I think that's the end result of transformation.

I've also learned that there is a delay between some questions and answers. So I'm not even sure they are even coming from mySelf, if so, why the delay. If I'm unsure of something I won't act, I'll move onto something else, then out of nowhere the answer pops into my head. It's usually only minutes but sometimes it takes longer. This has taught me to be more contemplative and less reactive.

[markpierre]

Hey mate,

So mark is your normal mind state, complete with egoic concerns, and Mark is your body consciousness which pops out in times of danger to make sure you dont eff up the vehicle that carries you around? Like when you suddenly react to a sudden danger without consciously thinking about it.

And the third guy is the silent witness, your pure consciousness. He's gonna spend most of his time watching you thinking your circular thoughts.

Just a guess.

Love, bram

Not quite, but those things are going on. It's actually mark's job to push mark out of the way of the bus or be able to smell a tiger, and keep the numbers in his head for how to build the boat.
It's just a practical aspect of Mark loaded into the left side of the brain.
It's not designed to make intuitive decisions, or figure out why it feels $hitty, or understand why she doesn't like me. It has a little awareness of provisions and makes the money,
because Mark doesn't need more than he has right now.

[markpierre]

I consider the first me to be my "ego". It tends to create drama (usually only in my head) and run amok if unsupervised. It offends easily and considers life to be unfair. It can be a whining sniveling malcontent that is full of fear if left unchecked.

I consider the second me to be my "higher self". It's my go to self........for advice, inspiration, and reassurance. I now call on it (me) many times a day. Funny, I was just wondering the other day why I can't seem to make a decision without it anymore. It assures me that all is well and everything is happening for a reason.

I guess the third me is neutral like Switzerland. It would be nice if they would all meld into one.

But isn't it kind of weird that we separate the two, if both are present. Isn't it really just an issue of which aspect of our same mind we want to use? That's how it's appearing.
What I've always known, is that by asking mySelf for an answer, the right answer is made available. But it's me asking the question, and going for the answer. That's the action.
And so I do use that aspect for it's purpose. It's never not paying attention or out of service..
But shouldn't it be a more dynamic experience, where the mind that initiates the action is the one that knows what's right? I think that's what's occurring anyway.
We call them karmic experiences until we've used our karma up. Then what? No more need for unpleasant lessons.
I think that's the end result of transformation.

I've also learned that there is a delay between some questions and answers. So I'm not even sure they are even coming from mySelf, if so, why the delay. If I'm unsure of something I won't act, I'll move onto something else, then out of nowhere the answer pops into my head. It's usually only minutes but sometimes it takes longer. This has taught me to be more contemplative and less reactive.

I usually have to let go, in order to hear the answer. Like the old ham radios, where you switch it on to speak, and switch it off to listen.
I just turn marks attention to other things and don't worry about it. Works for dropping screws, in any length of grass.

[Finefeather]

Hi markpierre
IF you are indeed not possessed and promise you are not smoking anything special...then lets proceed.

The first thing is to find out who is actually doing the observing when you identify mark and Mark. In psychology they call it Multiple Personality Disorder or Dissociative Identity Disorder. These are generally abnormalities as far as science is concerned. But this does not seem to be the case in you because YOU, whoever YOU are, seems to be observing clearly mark and Mark. So my first questions would be... are YOU mark or are YOU Mark?, or, are YOU mark AND Mark?, or, are you YOU AND mark AND Mark?.
I mean, who is actually now writing these posts as markpierre?...and...who is observing when mark is noticed to be 'on stage'...is it Mark or YOU?...and...who is observing when Mark is noticed to be 'on stage?...is it mark or YOU?...and does mark or Mark notice YOU when they are 'on stage'?...and finally...are YOU always present when mark or Mark is 'on stage'? :)

Answer all these questions and give 3 good reasons for each answer in an orderly logical fashion whilst sitting quietly next to a running stream... :)

If you believe each answer and the reasons you give, then you are probably totally insane and need help...;)

If you are not insane by then, then you are a genuine case of a manifested Human Personality...Divine Ego...and higher Soul fragment.
The mind of the Human Personality will be the one that pretends...the Divine Ego will be the one who dreams...and the higher Soul fragment will be the one that understands. The 3 in one of the enlightened incarnated Being.

Stay awake brother you don't want to miss a thing :)
Love
Ray

[spiritwind]

Markpierre, thank you so much for being so open. I trynor to have any intellectual theory here and relate my personal observations. First of all I experience a highly emotional self. One that is very self protective. The one that doe not trust. Over the past couple of years I have begun to observe that this "self" seem to work off of a couple of themes. It tends to like to manipulate the thinking process to end up with feelings of 'righteous indignation' or' martyrdom'. I notice that this self will bring up any one of a group of stories(over and over again ad nauseum) or will interpret a event to reinforce those feelings.Buying into this process of thinking created an untrusting and rather withdrawn, highly sensitive self. Frequently the interpretation of the event is inaccurate.Then there is another aspect of self that is aware of the previous mentioned self. It can now through a lot of training recognize the first self. For years I worked off of the first self treating it's interpretation of the world as gospel truth. The second aspect of self is more logical, is not ruled by emotion and is mostly present in the moment. This self is the aspect that gets things done.The one that"gets me out of myself"Then.....there is yet another one...and that one is the observer..seldom heard but frequently felt when out in nature. There seems to be feelings of gratitude and a calm type of bliss associated with this aspect..I believe this must be the self of enlightenment. In my experience the observer is never involved with the chattering in my head or the banter between the firs two aspects of self. It will not butt in to these thoughts. The only time I have communion with the observer is if I quiet my head by being in the current moment....I hope this made some sort of sense.... pammy

Lots of sense. Exactly what I hope to hear from anyone. I just want to bring this thing out a little more and have a look at it,
because if you or anyone are like me, we've put a very important dynamic just in reach, but almost out of sight.
And let the mind chatter on long enough about what it isn't, instead of what it is.

Thank you both for your comments. I don't think I've heard anyone give such great explanations.

I remember back in the late 70's I stumbled across a very old medical book with the names of different health and mental conditions and an explanation of each. My boyfirend at the time had epileptic seizures and so I looked that up out of curiousity and it recommended taking a black silk scarf and running it across the person having the seizure's face. Just an example of how old this book must have been. Anyway, I remember stumbling across this one condition, can't remember the name of it, but it was a condition where you think about thinking, like there was something seriously wrong with someone who did this. I knew I was in trouble then.

I know I have definitely identified what I call my parental voice/self that tends to operate from fear, subconscious parental/religious/societal programming, and has it's own rather shaming, guilt/security-driven, only feel okay when you're working hard voice, which is not even really the authentic me but came to feel incharge after many years of mostly identifying with survival issues. Plus, I've gradually learned to go back to being able to hear and act from a much different voice that's always been there but kind of pushed aside, and I call that my higher self for lack of better termonology. It seems to be able to consult some form of higher wisdom than what I generally identify in my everyday life and those around me. I was not taught this.

I have also identified and regularly consult the child self in me that got shut out way back when I was a youngster because of the survival oriented nature of my life at that time due to circumstances out of my control. That's when the parental voice slowly became the dominant one. The child self (which, incidently was retrieved in a shamanic soul retrieval I experienced about 17 years ago) has really helped me to lighten up, not take things so seriously, enjoy the simplist and silliest of things, and has seemed to be as an important part of the self as any other. And, yes, I feel there has been an integration process going on for quite some time now and probably will continue for a long time. It seems I become aware of new things about myself all the time.

For me, the highly emotional self seems to be the child self in many cases responding subconciously to the overbearing admonitions of the overly security conscious parental self. The programming was pretty extensive in my case and seems to take continued effort to recognize and then subsequently tune in to my higher voice that seems to operate from a sense of total okayness/knowingness. From there it is easy to forgive self and others, feel gratitude, allow others to be just as they are without trying to change them, and release my often unrealistic expectations.

I believe some people are just naturally more sensitive than others and our society pretty much tells us that only certain emotions are okay to express, hence our extremely repressive society and all that comes from this unhealthy response to the full array of normal human responses to things, especially all that we can so plainly see is not okay with our world today. I think many who don't seem to care are actually suffering from cognitive dissonance because their beliefs about the world we live in is becoming more distant from reality all the time. It can be a somewhat painful, although liberating, process taking those rose colored glasses off.

[markpierre]

Hi markpierre
IF you are indeed not possessed and promise you are not smoking anything special...then lets proceed.

The first thing is to find out who is actually doing the observing when you identify mark and Mark. In psychology they call it Multiple Personality Disorder or Dissociative Identity Disorder. These are generally abnormalities as far as science is concerned. But this does not seem to be the case in you because YOU, whoever YOU are, seems to be observing clearly mark and Mark. So my first questions would be... are YOU mark or are YOU Mark?, or, are YOU mark AND Mark?, or, are you YOU AND mark AND Mark?.
I mean, who is actually now writing these posts as markpierre?...and...who is observing when mark is noticed to be 'on stage'...is it Mark or YOU?...and...who is observing when Mark is noticed to be 'on stage?...is it mark or YOU?...and does mark or Mark notice YOU when they are 'on stage'?...and finally...are YOU always present when mark or Mark is 'on stage'? :)

Answer all these questions and give 3 good reasons for each answer in an orderly logical fashion whilst sitting quietly next to a running stream... :)

If you believe each answer and the reasons you give, then you are probably totally insane and need help...;)

If you are not insane by then, then you are a genuine case of a manifested Human Personality...Divine Ego...and higher Soul fragment.
The mind of the Human Personality will be the one that pretends...the Divine Ego will be the one who dreams...and the higher Soul fragment will be the one that understands. The 3 in one of the enlightened incarnated Being.

Stay awake brother you don't want to miss a thing :)
Love
Ray

That was great Ray. Thanks. Are you one of the Great Rays? I think you're on the page by golly. I think the answers were yes.

But we don't have to assess or evaluate anything. Assessing is the problem.

At some point in your travels you found or stumbled upon stillness and that watcher. Maybe you meditated for 40 years, or it just happened because it was time to,
That really gives the mediators the #hits. Well I admit that I opted for discipline, but found stillness when I gave up on that. Only took 20 years of discipline to give up on it.
I was lucky. But see the discipline allowed that frustration to build to a vast pressure and pop, so I don't resent it.
Not off with the fairies, or ready for a pill, adult diapers, and a partially thawed TV dinner.
In that stillness you might then think, 'how pristine', and leave it at that. Enough thinking. That doesn't stop or undermine your thoughts.
Thinking is different from 'thoughts'. Your perception of life is thought, for better or worse. Thought doesn't seem like a 'you', thinking does. It feels like you thinking.
You can get very possessive of that, and of what it is you're thinking.

But back to just stillness and thought. Then things begin to flow. You rely on other capacities than figuring it out, which you never really did to any usable conclusion before anyway.
There are no conclusions.
So here are only thoughts, and thats how you know there is an 'anything'.. Thoughts and life experiences which are necessarily the same.
Some are your own thoughts, and in my case, some are not, and I presume it's that way for most everyone. And by the way, if you don't want to know you are here, you don't have to.

Hopefully even while you're thinking about it, whatever needed to get done got done. Something other than the thinking process accomplished that.
What you think the thinking process must accomplish, the doing process did. The bit that knows what to do.
Sometimes the doer fails, not realizing that failure was integral to the experience. Like 'don't do that again', or to somebody else,
or 'there's another added viewpoint you won't need to spend another whole lifetime to acquire'. Now try it again. This time while rubbing your belly and tapping your head at the same time.

If he knew he would fail he'd take measures to do it 'well enough'' and spoil the point of it. Or wouldn't attempt it at all. The evaluator would stop him and usually does.
Failure is bad. It means you didn't figure it out properly first. Spiritual paralysis. You deserve hell. Nothing moves. It's a good way to guarantee your sleep isn't disturbed.
Some minds just don't want to consider an answer, because figuring it out is too important to them. A mix I think of guilt and fear and nonsense..
I say God bless em, go for it.

Damn, did I just throw a 'doer' into the mix? The evaluator must be mark. Four of us now. That's a bit crowded. Might need to cull a few out.

Higher soul fragment eh? Hmmm, haven't heard that one. Hey Ray, you must kind of suspect by now that this isn't entirely brand new for me.

[markpierre]

I believe some people are just naturally more sensitive than others and our society pretty much tells us that only certain emotions are okay to express, hence our extremely repressive society and all that comes from this unhealthy response to the full array of normal human responses to things, especially all that we can so plainly see is not okay with our world today. I think many who don't seem to care are actually suffering from cognitive dissonance because their beliefs about the world we live in is becoming more distant from reality all the time. It can be a somewhat painful, although liberating, process taking those rose colored glasses off.

I think the jails and hospitals are full of early 'newman' Either sedating themselves or have been caught by the doctors and sedated by them. CBT is good, but incomplete. There's a level of
mind at play, and always has been, that won't adjust to the external world. It can't be fooled. A well adjusted human is a suspicious character. How do you adjust to squeezing the power of the universe into a box of concepts and guilty obligations and self deception?

Child self? That makes 5. Should we call a caterer?

[Heartsong]

Dissociative Identity Disorder is the extreme end of thought processes like this. In the extreme, mark won't be aware of Mark or even worse mark will rename himself Arnold and alternate with Mark. Where you are is ok. It's controlled. It serves a purpose although it can obstruct living somewhat comfortably with yourself.

If you make a complete break between identities than you'll need a professional third party to referee and get you back to a singular self awareness.

[Finefeather]

Higher soul fragment eh? Hmmm, haven't heard that one. Hey Ray, you must kind of suspect by now that this isn't entirely brand new for me.
Hi markpierre
The first time I read one of your posts...a while back now...I heard your voice. So I know what you are.

If you have not heard of what I call, Higher soul fragment, then let me attempt an answer for you...you may know it as something else...but lets see?

I find it quite difficult to express some aspects of my self to all because most are still too busy discovering what's inside and so I use the parts which best seem to fit the occasion.
I have discovered 3 distinct levels of thinking and presenting, and they all belong together and I know they are one, but I cannot find an exact point where one merges with the other, they seem to flow like waves in and out of physical awareness...depending on the person or persons I am with, or about to address, and even the place I may be at...I know who is doing the thinking and the talking. The thinking appears to come from the same source because it goes from one state to another with very little effort...but I seem to know what aspect is on stage and I can recognize the difference in the attitude quite easily. Each is aware of all. Like having a fancy dress party...with a few different costumes to wear, like a movie roll.

About the Soul fragment.
When I first started to meditate, quite a few years ago now, I was locked into a view of what I now recognize as realms of thought patterns in geometric shapes, like a kaleidoscope. This started to change eventually and I started approaching the entry point of the eye we sometimes see in meditation. Around this eye, or opening, you find a vast plane which seems to fold under you and goes on forever in all directions, it is quite beautiful...it was during this stage, when I managed to go through this eye, that I had a complete picture of who I was. This lasted for about a month or so, and I was never able to completely bring this consciously, completely through. Since that point I have been aware of this soul 'fragment' which seems to be a 'piece' of the higher Soul aspect of our higher Being. This aspect is the one that seems to be in control now of my life. It is for me the highest part of my consciousness and yet I can speak of it as if it is some observation...like now...can you recognise who is doing the talking?

So for me, I can identified 3 players...and I can identify these in many people...can you identify these in your self?
1. The physical mental self who seems to like pretending that he knows nothing at times and a lot at other times, because to relate some stories to some people would land it, in their minds, in a little spot...so it tones the conversation up or down, so to speak, depending on the company.
2. The mystical self who loves to dream and go on journeys in it's mind to far away places. It can find itself in places it never knew existed. It knows that this is the imagination at work and is a quality of the Divine Ego which all humans possess. The thing is to be able to control the imagination to the point where it becomes useful and not a runaway carriage.
3. The Soul fragment gives the higher esoteric knowledge and quality and is able to journey into itself through the many layers of consciousness for answers when it needs them for service to humanity.

All in all a wonderful experience, which is different in each of our lives due to vast amounts of permutations in the construction of our subtle bodies.

Love to you
Ray

[markpierre]

Dissociative Identity Disorder is the extreme end of thought processes like this. In the extreme, mark won't be aware of Mark or even worse mark will rename himself Arnold and alternate with Mark. Where you are is ok. It's controlled. It serves a purpose although it can obstruct living somewhat comfortably with yourself.

If you make a complete break between identities than you'll need a professional third party to referee and get you back to a singular self awareness.

Oh jeezus, I love this one. So it is indeed insanity. That's a relief, I thought I was experiencing the thing I studied and taught for 20 years. Silly me.

Now I feel like a Big Mac and a Coke. Maybe a nice low scoring baseball game and 10 or 12 beers.

[markpierre]

So for me, I can identified 3 players...and I can identify these in many people...can you identify these in your self?
1. The physical mental self who seems to like pretending that he knows nothing at times and a lot at other times, because to relate some stories to some people would land it, in their minds, in a little spot...so it tones the conversation up or down, so to speak, depending on the company.
2. The mystical self who loves to dream and go on journeys in it's mind to far away places. It can find itself in places it never knew existed. It knows that this is the imagination at work and is a quality of the Divine Ego which all humans possess. The thing is to be able to control the imagination to the point where it becomes useful and not a runaway carriage.
3. The Soul fragment gives the higher esoteric knowledge and quality and is able to journey into itself through the many layers of consciousness for answers when it needs them for service to humanity.

All in all a wonderful experience, which is different in each of our lives due to vast amounts of permutations in the construction of our subtle bodies.

Love to you
Ray

Really, I used those characters to illustrate a story. But I do have a real opinion about it. The moral of the story is; the integration of all of those definable selves,
which proves the falseness of it.
Calling on a higher self just pushes that 'higher' further away.

It's on your shoulder, in your hips controlling your body sometimes. You know that someone is when you're not. Probably the producer.
Now we have watcher-scriptwriter-producer.
I think it was Mark who wrote and produced it.
In fact I think he's doing everything. That's pretty singular.
Who distributes the love you pass around?

I don't know or care about hierarchies of anything anymore really. There are hundreds of ways to name the same thing. They'd have to all be right.
The simple choice to make; is love. The choices are limited; love or fear. That's all that's ever going on.

And choosing until the real and so only choice, instead of the false and painful and belligerent one is chosen. No oscillating between the two.

So I don't know how to describe it. It's not describable. I think I might go now and find it some nice biscuits.

[Finefeather]

Hi markpierre
I must say I really enjoy your mind...thanks for it.



Really, I used those characters to illustrate a story. But I do have a real opinion about it. The moral of the story is; the integration of all of those definable selves,
which proves the falseness of it.
Calling on a higher self just pushes that 'higher' further away.
Yes, well that's exactly the intention...it's a bit like unwrapping a present...where you won't know what it is you got until you rip the last piece of paper off. The excitement and wonder just keeps on mounting.



It's on your shoulder, in your hips controlling your body sometimes. You know that someone is when you're not. Probably the producer.
Now we have watcher-scriptwriter-producer.
I think it was Mark who wrote and produced it.
In fact I think he's doing everything. That's pretty singular.
Who distributes the love you pass around?
Unfortunately not everyone distributes and passes love around that willingly so there must be something that has been added to let this happen. Maybe the producer just got wiser.



I don't know or care about hierarchies of anything anymore really. There are hundreds of ways to name the same thing. They'd have to all be right.
I would be quite happy with only 10, no need to reveal everything in public :)



The simple choice to make; is love. The choices are limited; love or fear. That's all that's ever going on.
And choosing until the real and so only choice, instead of the false and painful and belligerent one is chosen. No oscillating between the two.
Wise words...what makes me smile sometimes is the number of times some need to run into the same wall before they realise there's a wall there.



So I don't know how to describe it. It's not describable.
I think you just did...now you just need to let yourself know :)



I think I might go now and find it some nice biscuits.
Enjoy your biscuits, dear brother, I like the ones with the cream on top. :hungry:

Love to you
Ray

[markpierre]

Well it's you and me buddy. Thanks for hearing it. I don't think people come to Avalon necessarily for spiritual development. But damn,
it's nice to talk about the true trippy stuff with somebody sometimes. You know that we're talking about resurrection the way it was actually meant? Not the myth.
What did they think they were resurrecting from? Blame Mark. Mark did it. I was just watching.

[Ekon]

Dissociative Identity Disorder would be the psychological diagnosis. Thank you very much for sharing this with such detail.
Yesterday before bed i was having a conversation in my head, they are two characters, they do not have a name yet, but one seems to talk a bit more wisely than the other. The other is emotional and outrageous, not at all cautious, they love each other, they don't hold grudges, but they are very different, I find that if I write their dialogue I get a very interesting insight to my subconscious, about things I did't know I could solve on my own.

[another bob]

Every day the Zen master Zuigan used to call out to himself, “Master!”
and then he answered himself, “Yes, Sir!”
And he added, “Stay awake, Stay awake!”
and then answered, “Yes, Sir! Yes, Sir!”
And then he said, “From now onwards, do not be deceived by others!”
“No, Sir! I will not, Sir!”


Mumon’s Comment:

The master, Zuigan, sells out and buys himself. He has a lot of puppets of gods and devils that he plays with. Why is this so? With one mask he asked, and with another he answered. With another mask he said, “Awake!” and another, “Don’t be cheated by others!”
If you adhere to any one of these, you are totally mistaken. If, however, you imitate Zuigan, then all these are no other than the fox’s disguises.

Some who search the Way do not realize true self,
For they recognize only the ego-soul.
This ego-soul is the seed of birth and death,
Foolish people take it for the true original self.


:yo: