Beyond Doubt.

[Tony]

Beyond Doubt.


We can either enjoy clarity and thereby end doubt,
Or we can stay in doubt and suffer confusion.

If we have a question, then there is always an answer.
Sometimes the answer is obvious.
Sometimes it is a surprise.

Our potential is beyond doubt.
Our ignorance makes us suspicious.

To say too much can be called arrogant.
To say too little is leave things open to misunderstanding.
What to do?!

On a conventional level, we all suffer from inner and outer conflicts.
The answer is always resolved in and beyond the mind,
on the ultimate level.

Doubt is cleared when we know this,
so confidence naturally arises.

The natural outcome of confidence is love.

There are “teachers” all around us:
we can either see them as having divine pride,
or as arrogant: it is all in our mind.

Clearing doubt is trusting your own heart...and never doubting it.
Then it constantly rains inspirations.

It's the way it works.




Divine arrogance is our divine nature.
Tony

[GarethBKK]

Good for you. I'll drink to divine arrogance.

[Tony]

Criticism is the secret teaching.

1100 years ago in Tibet, there was a black arts exponent called Milarepa, who suddenly saw that his use
of evil powers to create suffering for others was wrong. So he decided to search for a teacher, and found
Marpa 'The Translator'...who had himself gone through a tough boot camp to realise the teachings from
his teacher called Naropa...who had realised the teachings from Tilopa...who had realised the teachings
from Dorje Chang (a celestial being). All of them had to go through some sort of ordeal...criticism!

Anyway, Milarepa was told to build a huge tower, and on completion, was told to knock it down.
This happened many times. You can imagine how despondent he became, and pointless it all seemed!
However, Milarepa did become enlightened in one life time, having realised the pointlessness of everything -
until everything became of one taste.

When life becomes our teacher, life is constantly knocking down our 'towers'.
Of course, if we are looking for the truth, and there are some around us don't have the same questions, then we will seem pretty annoying!
So we may become a target and get heavily criticised, and people will want to pull us down...
that is only natural on a conventional level.

The secret teaching in criticism.
It is one of inner conflict. The conflict is between what we 'know' and what we 'want to know'.
We haven't quite stepped out of the conventional world and we haven't quite stepped into the absolute world.
And, we haven't seen the connection - that one inseparably reflects the other.

In criticism there is a question, a conundrum. We have to learn that ordinary people do not mean what they say.
Their reaction is only an inner conflict highlighting their self doubt (which is natural) and our own doubts (which is also natural).

The conundrum is, “What do I trust?”

If we trust our intuition/heart (not the thinking mind, as that just sorts everything out later on order to express ourselves) a push and pull happens (I once discussed this with one of my teachers. I said, “Is it like, I push and you pull”
he said, “Yes.”....and then, after 11 years with him, he threw me out – I suppose that was total criticism!)

This push and pull is like an inner prayer and receiving a blessing.
The question and answer will different for all of us, here is how mine might go.
Q. “What is this all about, it's all pointless?”
A. !...it is all pointless …..and one just gives up and lets go!


The point is, it is pointlessness to be upset over criticism that is based on conventional reality.
The life teacher is pointing to something we are holding onto, that is no longer needed.
So from a feeling of poverty (pointlessness) there is a feeling of abundance and gratitude (the point).

Others' questioning or criticism is part of life's script, for without it there would no answer.

The script we receive in life is one that we wrote: it just has to play itself out without us adding more lines ;)

[Cristian]

So remember, this has to be the criterion: if you feel that a certain guru is enjoying the idea of having so many disciples and is creating barriers for you to enter into your own being and is desirous that you should go on clinging to him and makes you more and more helpless and makes you more and more dependent, makes you more and more afraid and creates guilt in you, and goes on saying, ‘It is only through me that your salvation is possible,’ takes away your freedom, destroys you — then escape from that man, he is the devil incarnate. Avoid him.

Search out somebody who is not in any need of having followers, who has no need of having a big crowd around him, who is utterly satisfied with himself even when he is alone, who is absolutely contented with his own self. Then he can be of tremendous help.

But remember again, the answer is not anywhere else, the answer is within you. The kingdom of God is within you. You are already carrying the answer within yourself. Maybe you have not looked and read it, maybe you don’t know how to decode it, maybe you have lost the key to your own innermost shrine. Somebody can be of help. One who has come to his innermost being can show you the path.

Buddha has said, ‘Buddhas only show the path. You have to travel.’ They cannot travel for you. Nobody can create your salvation. It is only your responsibility because it is you who have created the bondage and it is you who can drop it. Yes, somebody can be of immense help to make you aware, to make you alert about the situation.

One thing more about this age. The old supports have disappeared. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, don’t have the kind of hold on you that they used to have in the past. The church, the temple, the mosque are only decorative now, formal. Nobody’s heart is there.

Friedrich Nietzsche is the prophet of this age. He declared that God is dead and man is free. True, I support half his statement, the beginning part: God IS dead — at least, the God that people used to believe in is no more there, it is dead. The God of believers is dead, the God of Christians and Hindus and Mohammedans is dead. Of course, the real God can never be dead because the real God simply means life eternal, nothing else. The real God cannot be dead if existence is existing; the real God simply means the existence, life, this cosmos. But the God of the believers is dead. True, I absolutely support half Friedrich Nietzsche’s statement — but man is not free. god is dead, man is not free. In fact, man is in great chaos.

Man has always depended on beliefs, churches, organisations, scriptures — they have all disappeared. And man has not yet become grown-up. He still needs somebody to depend upon — hence he goes on searching for gurus.

In the old days the Christian had his priest and the Hindu had his guru and the Mohammedan had his MOULANA, now they are no more relevant. But deep down in man there is a kind of helplessness. Man is not yet capable of being on his own, he cannot stand on his own. He is afraid. He wants somebody to lean on. So he is ready to fall into the trap of whoever can claim that ‘I am going to support you.

[...]

But always remember, the answer is within you. He will only direct you within yourself. Because you are not capable of going into your own self, a kind of help is needed — somebody who knows the way; somebody who has gone into his own being and is fully aware of the path and the possibilities of going astray; who is aware of how many pitfalls there are; who is aware of how many wrong turns there are; who is aware of how many false doors there are and who is aware of the arduous work that one has to do.

And a real Master will not promise you instant enlightenment — that is just stupid. There are no short cuts. One has to grow slowly, patiently. Money may be possible instantly — you can become a thief — but you cannot steal God, you cannot become that kind of thief. Money is possible — you can deceive the income tax officer, or the income tax department — but how are you going to deceive God?

Money is possible instantly if you use wrong means, but if you use wrong means in your spiritual growth you will be self-destructive. Wrong means are not possible there. In the spiritual world the means and the end are-the same. You cannot use wrong means for right ends in the spiritual world. In the ordinary world you can. The ordinary world is perfectly available to those who want to exploit it, oppress it, but God is not available to the exploiters. God is available only to the true, the innocent. God is available only to the authentic. There means and ends are not separate, they are the same. Only the right means will lead you to the right end.

If somebody promises you instant enlightenment, that is a certainty that he is going to deceive you. And if you fall into his trap you are responsible — because in the first place you wanted enlightenment instantly. That was stupid. That has led you to this stupidity and to this imprisonment. God cannot be demanded on order. You have to prepare yourself. you have to become worthy. And it is a long journey. You will be fortunate if you can ever attain it. You will be blessed if it ever happens.

And I am not saying it cannot happen now, remember. If you are ready, if you are ready to wait forever, it can happen now, because this moment is as potential as any other moment. At this time God’s door is as open as ever. But you will need eyes to see, you will need wings to fly, you will need a womb-like receptivity to receive, you will need an innocent mind, thoughtless, aware, loving, compassionate. These things are not seasonal flowers; they take time to grow roots into the earth.

from http://www.oshoteachings.com/osho-on-instant-enlightenment-false-gurus-real-master/

[Youniverse]

So remember, this has to be the criterion: if you feel that a certain guru is enjoying the idea of having so many disciples and is creating barriers for you to enter into your own being and is desirous that you should go on clinging to him and makes you more and more helpless and makes you more and more dependent, makes you more and more afraid and creates guilt in you, and goes on saying, ‘It is only through me that your salvation is possible,’ takes away your freedom, destroys you — then escape from that man, he is the devil incarnate. Avoid him.

Search out somebody who is not in any need of having followers, who has no need of having a big crowd around him, who is utterly satisfied with himself even when he is alone, who is absolutely contented with his own self. Then he can be of tremendous help.

But remember again, the answer is not anywhere else, the answer is within you. The kingdom of God is within you. You are already carrying the answer within yourself. Maybe you have not looked and read it, maybe you don’t know how to decode it, maybe you have lost the key to your own innermost shrine. Somebody can be of help. One who has come to his innermost being can show you the path.

Buddha has said, ‘Buddhas only show the path. You have to travel.’ They cannot travel for you. Nobody can create your salvation. It is only your responsibility because it is you who have created the bondage and it is you who can drop it. Yes, somebody can be of immense help to make you aware, to make you alert about the situation.

One thing more about this age. The old supports have disappeared. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, don’t have the kind of hold on you that they used to have in the past. The church, the temple, the mosque are only decorative now, formal. Nobody’s heart is there.

Friedrich Nietzsche is the prophet of this age. He declared that God is dead and man is free. True, I support half his statement, the beginning part: God IS dead — at least, the God that people used to believe in is no more there, it is dead. The God of believers is dead, the God of Christians and Hindus and Mohammedans is dead. Of course, the real God can never be dead because the real God simply means life eternal, nothing else. The real God cannot be dead if existence is existing; the real God simply means the existence, life, this cosmos. But the God of the believers is dead. True, I absolutely support half Friedrich Nietzsche’s statement — but man is not free. god is dead, man is not free. In fact, man is in great chaos.

Man has always depended on beliefs, churches, organisations, scriptures — they have all disappeared. And man has not yet become grown-up. He still needs somebody to depend upon — hence he goes on searching for gurus.

In the old days the Christian had his priest and the Hindu had his guru and the Mohammedan had his MOULANA, now they are no more relevant. But deep down in man there is a kind of helplessness. Man is not yet capable of being on his own, he cannot stand on his own. He is afraid. He wants somebody to lean on. So he is ready to fall into the trap of whoever can claim that ‘I am going to support you.

[...]

But always remember, the answer is within you. He will only direct you within yourself. Because you are not capable of going into your own self, a kind of help is needed — somebody who knows the way; somebody who has gone into his own being and is fully aware of the path and the possibilities of going astray; who is aware of how many pitfalls there are; who is aware of how many wrong turns there are; who is aware of how many false doors there are and who is aware of the arduous work that one has to do.

And a real Master will not promise you instant enlightenment — that is just stupid. There are no short cuts. One has to grow slowly, patiently. Money may be possible instantly — you can become a thief — but you cannot steal God, you cannot become that kind of thief. Money is possible — you can deceive the income tax officer, or the income tax department — but how are you going to deceive God?

Money is possible instantly if you use wrong means, but if you use wrong means in your spiritual growth you will be self-destructive. Wrong means are not possible there. In the spiritual world the means and the end are-the same. You cannot use wrong means for right ends in the spiritual world. In the ordinary world you can. The ordinary world is perfectly available to those who want to exploit it, oppress it, but God is not available to the exploiters. God is available only to the true, the innocent. God is available only to the authentic. There means and ends are not separate, they are the same. Only the right means will lead you to the right end.

If somebody promises you instant enlightenment, that is a certainty that he is going to deceive you. And if you fall into his trap you are responsible — because in the first place you wanted enlightenment instantly. That was stupid. That has led you to this stupidity and to this imprisonment. God cannot be demanded on order. You have to prepare yourself. you have to become worthy. And it is a long journey. You will be fortunate if you can ever attain it. You will be blessed if it ever happens.

And I am not saying it cannot happen now, remember. If you are ready, if you are ready to wait forever, it can happen now, because this moment is as potential as any other moment. At this time God’s door is as open as ever. But you will need eyes to see, you will need wings to fly, you will need a womb-like receptivity to receive, you will need an innocent mind, thoughtless, aware, loving, compassionate. These things are not seasonal flowers; they take time to grow roots into the earth.

from http://www.oshoteachings.com/osho-on-instant-enlightenment-false-gurus-real-master/

Didn't Nietzche aslo say a belief in God comes from our dreams? I did some studies on Nietzche in University and I never got the sense he believed in a God of any kind. Of course, I am not a Nietzche scholar so you may know different than I. I doubt that Nietzche understood what dreams are really all about either. I am sure he has made his contributions, but as far as spirituality goes he seems sinical and ignorant.

I agree with everything else I read in your post. The greatest master is not the one with the most disciples, rather, the one who creates the most masters. I wholeheartedly believe the true teacher, parent, master, etc. is the one that aids those less 'aware' in becoming independant the quickest.

[Youniverse]

I actually disagree with your first statement as well. If you take someone like Christ, for example, he did not want, need, or ask anyone to be dependant on him. One should be aware that his words/teachings were misunderstood, mistranslated, edited, censored, right from the get-go. When Christ said, "No one gets to the Father, except through me," he means unless you become awakened/liberated like him, you cannot understand the true nature of God. If you don't like the word 'God', then substitute in whatever please you the most. Jesus also said that you(meaning us) will do "all this and more," in reference to the miracles he performed. That doesn't sound like somebody requiring dependance to me.

[Youniverse]

Beyond Doubt.


We can either enjoy clarity and thereby end doubt,
Or we can stay in doubt and suffer confusion.

If we have a question, then there is always an answer.
Sometimes the answer is obvious.
Sometimes it is a surprise.

Our potential is beyond doubt.
Our ignorance makes us suspicious.

To say too much can be called arrogant.
To say too little is leave things open to misunderstanding.
What to do?!

On a conventional level, we all suffer from inner and outer conflicts.
The answer is always resolved in and beyond the mind,
on the ultimate level.

Doubt is cleared when we know this,
so confidence naturally arises.

The natural outcome of confidence is love.

There are “teachers” all around us:
we can either see them as having divine pride,
or as arrogant: it is all in our mind.

Clearing doubt is trusting your own heart...and never doubting it.
Then it constantly rains inspirations.

It's the way it works.




Divine arrogance is our divine nature.
Tony

Yeah there will always be someone that misunderstands what you say or do. In the spirit of semantics, ha ha, I would drop the word 'arrogance' for one like 'boldness' perhaps, since arrogance has a negative connotation.

[Mark]

I agree about criticism.

Casteneda states that Petty Tyrants are a boon to the Seeker. They help you to tame the ego.


He said that the most effective strategy was worked out by the seers of the Conquest- the unquestionable masters of stalking. It consists of six elements that interplay with one another. Five of them are called the attributes of warrior-ship- control, discipline, forbearance, timing, and will. They pertain to the world of the warrior who is fighting to lose self-importance. The sixth element, which is perhaps the most important of all, pertains to the outside world and is called the petty tyrant.

He looked at me as if silently asking me whether or not I had understood.

"I am really mystified," I said. "You keep on saying that la Gorda is the petty tyrant of my life. Just what is a petty tyrant?"

"A petty tyrant is a tormentor," he replied. "Someone who either holds the power of life and death over warriors, or simply annoys them to distraction."

Don Juan had a beaming smile as he spoke to me. He said that the new seers developed their own classification of petty tyrants. Although the concept is one of their most serious and important findings, the new seers had a sense of humor about it. He assured me that there was a tinge of malicious humor in every one of their classifications because humor was the only means of counteracting the compulsion of human awareness to take inventories and to make cumbersome classifications.

The new seers, in accordance with their practice, saw fit to head their classification with the primal source of energy- the one and only ruler in the universe- and they called it simply 'the tyrant'. The rest of the despots and authoritarians were found to be, naturally, infinitely below the category of the tyrant. Compared to the source of everything, the most fearsome and tyrannical men are buffoons. Consequently, they were classified as petty tyrants, pinches tiranos.

He said that there were two subclasses of minor petty tyrants. The first subclass consisted of the petty tyrants who persecute and inflict misery but without actually causing anybody's death. They were called little petty tyrants, pinches tiranitos. The second consisted of the petty tyrants who are only exasperating and bothersome to no end. They were called small-fry petty tyrants, repinches tiranitos, or teensy-weensy petty tyrants, pinches tiranitos chiquititos.

It is also said that if you seek knowledge, go to school. If you seek wisdom, get married. Then you get a healthy dose of continuous criticism sanctioned by society. I've done both, so I expect I'm well on the Path.

There is much wisdom to be found in being confronted with your shyt. I am grateful (now lol) to all of those who have done so for me over the years. I think it has helped me to move past a lot of the egoistical posturing that I was very guilty of when I was a younger, mad scientist type Flame and Destroy artist on email listservs across the Net, as well as in classrooms in college.

I expect it will continue. And so I thank all of those presently as well who are in the process of explaining to me exactly how and why I am full of shyt now.

Great topic and I particularly appreciate the examples. I did not know that Milarepa was an evil genius. BTW, have you seen the movie, Kung Fu Hustle, Tony? You might like it. It's one of my favorites, if you have the time, it addresses aspects of this topic and more.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7A1y_cCJvM

[Tony]

Happy new year Mark,


Yes, Life can be a tad trying!


If we are here to be entertained
then nothing really matters accept
the next juicy piece of excitement.

If we are here to truly seek the truth
about our being,
then everything will be challenging!

Maybe there are many challenges ahead,
maybe the next one is the last one!



Mean while there is just 'stuff' to go through.





Tony

[markpierre]

Doubt doesn't choose clarity Tony. It would doubt it too much.

I don't know what happens. A chain breaks or the toast burns and snaps you out of it for just a sec.

Then clarity crashes in and if you're lucky, you can keep it for a while.

That's not the meditaters way I know. But then it sneaks up on them when a chain breaks too.

Just so everyone knows, that if you seek, you can be seeking anything. Because nothing will be true.

That's what clarity will show you.

[Finefeather]

Divine arrogance is our divine nature.
Hi Tony
I do not 'believe' that there is such a thing as divine arrogance...but their is such a thing as truth.
All forms of arrogance, if there are different forms, comes from separation and perceived superiority.
Superiority comes from lack of knowledge of what we really are...which makes arrogance...ignorance.
Divinity is presumably not ignorant...so cannot be arrogant.

There is only one truth about superiority, and that is, that it is a temporary illusion.
The more truth you uncover the more superiority fades into oblivion and the more arrogance becomes ignorance.

Of cause we should not forget about the ignorant...who call truth arrogance.

Love to All
Ray

[greybeard]

Having listened to several who are in the state we call enlightenment, they all became aware that what they are is the same as everything without exception -- there is no difference between the the profound and profane "God" is both.
Yogananda said the darkness come from the same place as the light.

They (the sages) say You are That and the universe reside within you.
"God" is internal and external-- there is no where you are not in your true nature.
The mind cant get that.

I just use the word God but you can use any word that you feel comfortable with.


Chris

[Tony]

Divine arrogance is our divine nature.
Hi Tony
I do not 'believe' that there is such a thing as divine arrogance...but their is such a thing as truth.
All forms of arrogance, if there are different forms, comes from separation and perceived superiority.
Superiority comes from lack of knowledge of what we really are...which makes arrogance...ignorance.
Divinity is presumably not ignorant...so cannot be arrogant.

There is only one truth about superiority, and that is, that it is a temporary illusion.
The more truth you uncover the more superiority fades into oblivion and the more arrogance becomes ignorance.

Of cause we should not forget about the ignorant...who call truth arrogance.

Love to All
Ray


Happy new year Ray,

We all use words differently.
Arrogance just playing with the word pride.
Doubt is not knowing, no doubt is knowing.

Knowing is superior to not knowing.

From no knowing in the past to knowing now,
which is due to ancient teachings,
I am proud of part of that.


Divine pride is our true nature.
It's a happiness that cannot be broken.



Tony

[Tony]

To clarify as things can be misunderstood.

Here knowing means knowingness, not knowing more than someone else.
When we are caught in being the 'knower', (knowing something) we are caught in a duality,
that is the vicious cycle of existence...me and it.

We can drop the claiming of a knower as in 'I know', and rest in knowingness,
which is a slightly more active part of awareness.
Knowing awareness or awareness of knowing.

The object then is when this knowingness occurs, clarity arises.
Then maybe we can do something to redress the imbalance and
misunderstanding in the world, and not constantly add to it.

This of course is challenging moment to moment.

When one realises knowingness, one is beyond doubt.

[markpierre]

Did somebody pass wind?

[Tony]

Did somebody pass wind?


It's not easy finding the right words, but I do not doubt the experience.

Tony

[markpierre]

Oh there IS somebody here. I thought maybe someone had cleared the room.