The Community Ideal - The Ideal Community

[music]

What is “community”? Our lives are an interlinked network of communities, yet we give little consideration to what constitutes a community. Community is the opposite of centralised control, where the views of those at the top become the values of the whole, and community starts by considering the needs and desires of all, from the roots upward. In this way, hierarchy becomes “user friendly”, and those in “power” are there because their forte is administration, and they administer the needs and desires of the collective. I think it would be useful to discuss just what the ideals of a community could or even should be.

Perhaps point one could be “inclusiveness”. All in the community should feel included, and feel they have a voice.

Perhaps point two could be “equity”. Equity in all things, where those who do essential “menial” labour are valued as much as those who advance science or spirit. Equity might also mean a sharing of the jobs we see as distasteful. Equity certainly means that all members in the community benefit equally from the fruits of the collective will, heart and intellect.

We will never have an “ideal” until we actively work towards it, and there are such keen minds here, and such good hearts, that this is the perfect place to recognise and develop those aspects of human interaction and behaviour that lead us as close to “ideal” as we can get.

Ideas? We all have them, so please, let’s share them with each other, and work toward a better world.

[spiritguide]

Synergy is a very important stone for the foundation for this endeavor. Without true synergy understanding a community of selflesness will not flourish. IMHO

[music]

Yes, working together, the whole is more than the sum of the parts. Like life, take a couple of hundred bucks worth of chemicals, combine them with four times their weight in water and we will have one of two things - a soup of denatured protiens and various toxic and non-toxic compounds, or a human life. Our society at present is more like the former.

Spiritguide, how would you define synergy, and express it as a third ideal for a community?

[markpierre]

Can I take that question? Can I? Can I? I've never heard that idea used in this context before. It's so obvious.
People don't generally include things that didn't work, when they speak of synergy.
They may say bad blood, or negative thinking, or manifesting evil or something. We do that as a group.
If a mind (or a community) can see how every bad thing is exactly the path to the next good thing,
that mind or that community could never have a problem.

[music]

So just as in all things the energy fluctuates between the poles - we have our ups and downs - so too, a community must accept the ups and downs and not strive for an uttainable Utopia?

[Fred Steeves]

Hi music, I don't really see where talk of how to build a true and equal community can even begin to be seriously discussed, until each individual who would be a part of said community has atleast tamed their inner demons, and are coming from a place of near center.


From there? If the old
do unto others, as you would have them do unto you is held as sacred, then the pieces of the puzzle should fall in place quite naturally.

[Nerge]

Nice thread; any steps to get communities working closer together once again is a good move.

Warning: wall of text incoming. :)

I think many of the problems these days is due to better communication options, funnily enough; while the internet and mobiles etc have helped to connect us in many ways to friends and family further afield, it can also cause people to become isolated in their own little bubbles within their communities.

When you have the government and corporations (food/utility etc) providing all your day-to-day practical needs, then the role of mutually depending on others locally to survive and thrive vanishes.

I guess one cause for this is the sheer size of the communities (using the word very loosely here) that we now have. They become impersonal due to the size of them and there being so many people it's hard to know everyone as people used to do in small village environments. We also move around far more these days, but, that's not to say we need to know everyone intimately anyway to have a good community, just a healthy change in attitudes and approaches.

Some random thoughts on what I'd like to see in a good community:


1) Everyone makes an effort to speak to one another even if it's only a "Hello" in passing on the street - it's a start at least!

2) A focus on coming together to help one another out - especially the vulnerable or needy in the community.

3) What can I do to help? Rather than “what's in it for me?” attitude.
If everyone has the former approach everyone will benefit as long as it's structured fairly and all contribute in their own unique ways that favour their own talents and what they enjoy doing – I’m not talking about this sort of thing: ‘for the good of all but screw you if you don’t enjoy your part – get working!’; people should enjoy what they contribute.

4) A community site or portal to encourage discussion and requesting/offering help.
For example, imagine something like Craig’s List / Gumtree (in the UK) where people offer their unwanted items to those that may need or have a use for them. But this could be taken one step further to allow people to offer their skills or time too, it doesn't have to be something super technical, even if it's someone who likes to bake or paint or garden, anything as long as they enjoy (or at least don’t mind) doing it or would like to help others in some way.

5) Regular opportunities and avenues to provide feedback and opinions on what's happening in the community and what areas need to be addressed or improved etc.
These areas could then be set in a priority order to be sorted out according to what the majority want and the funds and resources then allocated to make it happen. However, I think it's also important to listen to and put plans in place for the ideas of the people who weren't in the majority. Regardless if an idea wasn’t taken forward at that time they may still be valuable suggestions, which may be just as important in the long run. The idea is to be inclusive and not make people feel like the majority always gets their way and their good ideas are disregarded as a result.

6) Community events: they need to be arranged often and be fun and varied.
Now many people just enjoy being left alone and do not feel they should be 'expected' to be best buds with their neighbours and other locals or automatically have to join in these events. Much of this I feel is down to how society (in general) now works rather than all these people not enjoying company of the people (at least some of the time) in the local area. I think the key is to focus it so these events are very enjoyable in their own right so that people naturally begin to interact with each other more again - and enjoy doing it - without feeling forced or expected to in any way.

7) Community structure:
As someone already mentioned there needs to be some sort of structure in place even it it’s only purely for admin purposes; as as good as it is to make everyone equal, people are naturally better at some things than others – the key is that those people do not have any more power or influence than anyone else.
These people would have this role to carry out these functions so that the system works – in addition to their own views and opinions that they add the same as anyone else.

The same goes for any other wider interactions, such as gaining funds from the government (it’s what we have to work with right now unfortunately).

I find it odd - using the UK as an example - that the government has to decide whether to even give the people that appointed them the opportunity to decide certain things – such as being in or out of the European Union – can’t have the people deciding anything for themselves after they’ve voted the politicians in now can we! :)

My point is, to never have the community structure set up in any way that takes any of the power from the people and to a select few or an individual – the people should always be aware of what’s going on and be able to overrule any decisions if they wish – they’re ultimately the boss not the elected officials, which seems to have been lost at some point.

I got a bit side tracked there, but I just want to make it clear that I’m no community saint myself at the moment. Me and my girlfriend mostly stick to ourselves but are always polite to our neighbours - but we don't really say more than a quick hello when we see them.

I know we could certainly interact more and try and say hello to people as we pass them on the street (at least in our local area to begin with), and be an example to try and get the ball rolling, as they say, but it’s not always easy.
Part of the issue is not knowing what to expect back or people thinking your odd or making them feel uncomfortable by speaking to them (as odd as that sounds).
Also, that those people feel they're expected to speak to you every time (that's another debate) they pass - which really, a passing hello and a smile should not really be much to ask, to at least acknowledge another human being in a friendly way.

Perhaps some sort of community charter to encourage people to say hello etc - not that there will be SWAT teams descending upon people if they don't say hello or forget, but at least a highly visible list of suggestions/agreed ways to encourage more community spirit? That way, if most are aware of this then they may feel less uncomfortable about initiating a hello or making conversation or offering/asking for help when needed, as it’ll be seen as an encouraged aspect of the community and once people see the good effects of this it would hopefully snowball.

Heck, let's have a stamp book system where every time you initiate a hello the other person stamps your book and then at the end of each month those with many of these stamps get some sort of reward! I am joking of course; I can see people running towards one another shouting hello to be the first in there and get their stamp! This would sure encourage it but would be a nightmare to manage and obviously for all the wrong reasons. :)

One last thing, as I’ve waffled enough: I did have the idea a while back of making some sort of local community site to encourage interaction but, I’m guessing some good technical know-how would be needed to really do it well and make it scalable, but something simple may suffice for a start at least.

My only concern is with sites like Facebook, which can offer the ability to create community groups etc already - while I’m sure this helps some communities (mostly clubs and organisations) to bring people together and advertise it doesn’t seem to have started a community revolution or anything.

I think any new community site would have to do things in such a new and novel way to be a bit different and be more motivating for people to participate, but again, much of this may depend on changes in general attitude.
Sadly, many of us are creatures of routine and going for the easiest option, so that's where it becomes tricky, creating something interesting and exciting enough that people are really enthusiastic to be a part of without it feeling like a choir.

I know much of this may be seen as unrealistic but there's no harm in aiming high (in my opinion) because it's all possible, just not always easy. :)

Anyway I’ll leave it at that for now; congratulations to anyone that managed to read all of that – sadly there’s no prize but my thanks. :)

[panopticon]

I reckon Nerge has raised some excellent points.

Interaction between individuals and 'co-operation not competition' are good ways of looking at how to form a geo-localised group.

I would add to that the idea of gradually introducing a local currency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_currency) (some form of hour credits system (http://timebanks.org/), or a LETS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_exchange_trading_system), for example) that encourages people to work for each other while getting discounts from local vendors for produce (in particular the formation of a Community Supported Agriculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community-supported_agriculture) system with everyone contributing in establishment costs, running, delivery etc might help in the formation of a feeling of "community" through interaction). That way people are getting something tanglible out of the program and not just participating haphazardly. There are lots of cases where programs haven't worked because people lost interest. As Nerge pointed out in 'section 6 Community events' there may well be a lot of people who aren't interested in the rubbish that a lot of people carry on with. What is fun to some is the height of boredom to others. I might only say that at Community Events never allow alcohol or drugs. The dangers are too high and what was supposed to be an inclusive event where everyone felt safe and involved can turn into the opposite leading to distrust and group/individual disempowerment from just a few drunken phrases. Don't take the risk. No grog & no drugs.

The formation of a bureaucracy is something that I see being a problem as it centralises power in a small groups hands while also running the risk of granting a form of defacto governance because of the financial control exerted by the bureaucrats (just look at the Spanish revolution and how the Syndicalist's were sold out to see the dangers of that). It might not happen in a small setting where everyone knows each other though why run the risk? Lord Acton's words are always a nice reminder when it comes to "good people", control and power.

That having been said I see no reason why a grass root organisation would need to bureaucratise to a large extent. Maybe creation of few office bearing positions with a limited life (eg max 2 years x 2 sittings in any 10 year period, one off 5 year guide position that is not repeatable), or inclusion of pre-existing culture specific models, as a means of incorporation. Let's face it, the numbers for regular "strong" individual interactions max out around 100 people per week for intense urban environments. That would translate to 1 office bearer per 100 members.

Permaculture tells us that 1000 is the maximum community size for internal governance through open democratic systems. Larger than that and it starts being a representative, as opposed to a participatory, form of democracy. The use of various online management programs and banking systems (eg the Free Open Source software banking program Cyclos (http://www.cyclos.org/index.php) is easily adaptable) can provide easy semi-automated organisation that doesn't need a great deal of supervision or specialised knowledge. There's so much that we already know in Permaculture that it gets hard to know where to even start when writing about it...

Anyway, sorry to go on.
-- Pan

[panopticon]

Just a couple of short vid's on Mondragon Co-ops (http://www.solhaam.org/articles/mondra.html):

Z-b_KvyMzOs
zaJ1hfVPUe8
Longer documentary from the 1980's (Horizon BBC)

-obHJfTaQvw
Mondragon Coops is just one alternative that have been in operations for decades.

[spiritguide]

Yes, working together, the whole is more than the sum of the parts. Like life, take a couple of hundred bucks worth of chemicals, combine them with four times their weight in water and we will have one of two things - a soup of denatured protiens and various toxic and non-toxic compounds, or a human life. Our society at present is more like the former.

Spiritguide, how would you define synergy, and express it as a third ideal for a community?

This will be accomplished as my material is stored and must be retreived for use. Synergy was used as an educational tool for better communications and teamwork in a program I facilitated. Synergy can be used in a community to view systemic problems as an opportunity to improve the system/s. Constant change for the better and continous improvement are a needed mindset within the synergy. The individual potential of our human resources has not been tapped und used to it's full potential because of the lack of knowledge of synergy. In the quality of the best of the best in anything is synergy. More dialog to come.....

[christian]

From my limited experience, it's just about cutting out the bulls*** in one's own mind, emotions, deeds, and aspirations. And then focusing on doing the simple things properly, the things that most directly and most obviously add quality to your life and to the life of your community. Everything else is based on that. This is what I do personally, I stick to it and actually I am very cautious about when and how I get involved with other people's lives and issues, because all the well meant motivations in the world are regularly prone to just create more confusion, I've seen this so often. So now I kind of just chime in when I very distinctly feel that I am in the position to really help out. And then I do it very pronounced, assertive, and clear. This has helped others and myself, I don't get overly exhausted and others don't get overly confused.

I feel that if we get the basics right, all the rest will flow naturally. We're like actual mental patients in a way talking about how to live in the real world. Let's get some grip on sanity first. I mean our personal hygiene in every way, mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually. That's ascension, getting moving, starting to walk the way, the essence of it, the real deal, focusing on that and realizing that there always seems to be some confused chatter and all that stuff when you look to the sides, but I really focus on my personal safe steps foremost, where I make sure that I wholly walk decently, meaning respecting myself, the way, and everything around me, making sure that I honor and appreciate the uniqueness and the life within everything.

The community that I feel like striving towards is simply connected by a common wholistic understanding, where we develop an entrainment that is an expression of a shared understanding but also allows room for each individual's exploration. The shared understanding I am talking about is mostly just an appreciation of awareness. Because when we are really aware of everything, we wouldn't do stuff that has ill effects.

[music]

Thank you for what I see as the start of a useful dialogue. Unfortunately, I must drive 600 kms to pick my daughter up off a plane, so I don't have time to read thoroughly, watch videos and reply with the attention and respect each of you deserves. Hmm, maybe I should have started this when I got back! Anyway, sorry to abandon my thread, back in a couple of days :)

[music]

Hi music, I don't really see where talk of how to build a true and equal community can even begin to be seriously discussed, until each individual who would be a part of said community has atleast tamed their inner demons, and are coming from a place of near center.


From there? If the old
do unto others, as you would have them do unto you is held as sacred, then the pieces of the puzzle should fall in place quite naturally.

I agree Fred, and this might tie quite well into the general idea of "respect". Respect for different ideas, feelings, abilities. I read somewhere a claim that modern societies lose value in a culture that seems to give awards just for taking part, and that reminded me of the scene in the film "Meet the Fockers" where the CIA dad looks down his nose at the 9th place ribbon of his prospective son in law. Should our ideal community be focussed on competition, or should we perhaps remember the wisdom of "it's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game that matters". One might win a cup for prowess, but the cup itself is an empty vessel that is only filled by our actions. A winner's cup may therefore be filled with honour, or with dishonour. The focus on winning at all costs ensures that most winner's cups are filled with dishonour.

[music]

1) Everyone makes an effort to speak to one another even if it's only a "Hello" in passing on the street - it's a start at least!

2) A focus on coming together to help one another out - especially the vulnerable or needy in the community.

3) What can I do to help? Rather than “what's in it for me?” attitude.
If everyone has the former approach everyone will benefit as long as it's structured fairly and all contribute in their own unique ways that favour their own talents and what they enjoy doing – I’m not talking about this sort of thing: ‘for the good of all but screw you if you don’t enjoy your part – get working!’; people should enjoy what they contribute.

4) A community site or portal to encourage discussion and requesting/offering help.
For example, imagine something like Craig’s List / Gumtree (in the UK) where people offer their unwanted items to those that may need or have a use for them. But this could be taken one step further to allow people to offer their skills or time too, it doesn't have to be something super technical, even if it's someone who likes to bake or paint or garden, anything as long as they enjoy (or at least don’t mind) doing it or would like to help others in some way.

5) Regular opportunities and avenues to provide feedback and opinions on what's happening in the community and what areas need to be addressed or improved etc.
These areas could then be set in a priority order to be sorted out according to what the majority want and the funds and resources then allocated to make it happen. However, I think it's also important to listen to and put plans in place for the ideas of the people who weren't in the majority. Regardless if an idea wasn’t taken forward at that time they may still be valuable suggestions, which may be just as important in the long run. The idea is to be inclusive and not make people feel like the majority always gets their way and their good ideas are disregarded as a result.

6) Community events: they need to be arranged often and be fun and varied.
Now many people just enjoy being left alone and do not feel they should be 'expected' to be best buds with their neighbours and other locals or automatically have to join in these events. Much of this I feel is down to how society (in general) now works rather than all these people not enjoying company of the people (at least some of the time) in the local area. I think the key is to focus it so these events are very enjoyable in their own right so that people naturally begin to interact with each other more again - and enjoy doing it - without feeling forced or expected to in any way.

7) Community structure:
As someone already mentioned there needs to be some sort of structure in place even it it’s only purely for admin purposes; as as good as it is to make everyone equal, people are naturally better at some things than others – the key is that those people do not have any more power or influence than anyone else.
These people would have this role to carry out these functions so that the system works – in addition to their own views and opinions that they add the same as anyone else.

The same goes for any other wider interactions, such as gaining funds from the government (it’s what we have to work with right now unfortunately).



Thank you Nerge, these are excellent points. I think most of us would concur. We have a site where I live where we place things we no longer need up for grabs (free). We recently gave a fridge to an old lady who was penniless and moving into unfurnished government accomadation just before Christmas, and from another person we received a big batch of preserving jars they no longer used. True, we need to use the infrastructure of government we currently have, but we don't need to keep this. We have the intelligence, and the heart, to move beyond this, or to rise above. I love your point about saying hello. I was just in a big city and it was very hard to engage people - no one returns smiles, no one says hello. When we could engage people with a smile or a greeting, they accepted this most simple human contact with the need and joy of a starving person receiving food. So easy to smile, but the effect on the person we smile at can be wonderous. Then they smile at people, who then smile at people. We need to reconnect to our pure nature, which is joy, friendship, love. Why else are we designed so it takes many muscles to frown, but only a few to smile :)

[music]

Panopticon, thank you for some excellent thoughts. I will have to download the videos (v. slow sattelite connection due to remote location) and watch them later, thanks for the links. Re the community supported agriculture, this is great. My partner told me of a town in the UK (I think) where every roundabout and free open space (apart from play areas) has been given over to council funded food production, and the people are encouraged to pick what they need for free. There is a town near where I live that has started this "community garden" approach, with fruit, vegetables and herbs planted instead of ornamental garden beds. It is working well. There are plenty of great ideas out there, we, the people, need to ensure that these become the norm.

[music]

Yes, working together, the whole is more than the sum of the parts. Like life, take a couple of hundred bucks worth of chemicals, combine them with four times their weight in water and we will have one of two things - a soup of denatured protiens and various toxic and non-toxic compounds, or a human life. Our society at present is more like the former.

Spiritguide, how would you define synergy, and express it as a third ideal for a community?

This will be accomplished as my material is stored and must be retreived for use. Synergy was used as an educational tool for better communications and teamwork in a program I facilitated. Synergy can be used in a community to view systemic problems as an opportunity to improve the system/s. Constant change for the better and continous improvement are a needed mindset within the synergy. The individual potential of our human resources has not been tapped und used to it's full potential because of the lack of knowledge of synergy. In the quality of the best of the best in anything is synergy. More dialog to come.....

Thank you spiritguide. Constant change for the (nett) better, coupled with an acceptance (as markpierre noted) that natural energy flow includes downs as well as ups) is a fine goal. In this I see the "downs" as learning opportunities, and I'm guessing you feel the same? Teamwork is great, and after all, what is a community without teamwork?

[music]

From my limited experience, it's just about cutting out the bulls*** in one's own mind, emotions, deeds, and aspirations. And then focusing on doing the simple things properly, the things that most directly and most obviously add quality to your life and to the life of your community. Everything else is based on that. This is what I do personally, I stick to it and actually I am very cautious about when and how I get involved with other people's lives and issues, because all the well meant motivations in the world are regularly prone to just create more confusion, I've seen this so often. So now I kind of just chime in when I very distinctly feel that I am in the position to really help out. And then I do it very pronounced, assertive, and clear. This has helped others and myself, I don't get overly exhausted and others don't get overly confused.

I feel that if we get the basics right, all the rest will flow naturally. We're like actual mental patients in a way talking about how to live in the real world. Let's get some grip on sanity first. I mean our personal hygiene in every way, mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually. That's ascension, getting moving, starting to walk the way, the essence of it, the real deal, focusing on that and realizing that there always seems to be some confused chatter and all that stuff when you look to the sides, but I really focus on my personal safe steps foremost, where I make sure that I wholly walk decently, meaning respecting myself, the way, and everything around me, making sure that I honor and appreciate the uniqueness and the life within everything.

The community that I feel like striving towards is simply connected by a common wholistic understanding, where we develop an entrainment that is an expression of a shared understanding but also allows room for each individual's exploration. The shared understanding I am talking about is mostly just an appreciation of awareness. Because when we are really aware of everything, we wouldn't do stuff that has ill effects.

and your quote...


"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23


Everyone from Alistair Crowley to the reggae band "Culture" appreciate that when we live from a place of true awareness, then we have no need for laws. When we are truly seated in our hearts, then our every action can only be for the greatest common good. I agree wholeheartedly with you, that when we get the basics right, the rest will flow naturally. Awareness, as always, is the key. The punk band "Stiff Little Fingers" sing "I want my share, even if it means I have to give", and Bunny Wailer sings "Comfort the afflicted, and keep them from harm - let the aged be protected, and the infants be strong". Our culture is steeped in much wisdom from both conventional and unconventional sources, and much of it signposts ways to better community.

[panopticon]

Panopticon, thank you for some excellent thoughts. I will have to download the videos (v. slow sattelite connection due to remote location) and watch them later, thanks for the links. Re the community supported agriculture, this is great. My partner told me of a town in the UK (I think) where every roundabout and free open space (apart from play areas) has been given over to council funded food production, and the people are encouraged to pick what they need for free. There is a town near where I live that has started this "community garden" approach, with fruit, vegetables and herbs planted instead of ornamental garden beds. It is working well. There are plenty of great ideas out there, we, the people, need to ensure that these become the norm.

G'day Music,

There was a thread about the UK town I think you're referring too that you might be interested in:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37107-the-town-growing-ALL-its-own-veg

In regards to these being the norm, they pretty well are the norm in Australia (well they certainly aren't abnormal anyway) through the extensive work of various Permaculture and Organic Farming groups.

There is a constant push-pull process between local group (grass root) activities and top down approaches (from, for example, Government and Corporations) that require quantification of data for evaluation purposes (ie bureaucratic number crunching to work out if something is working and deserves continued funding).

Also another problem (as I see it anyway, though I've been told off here before for saying it) is the capitalist base of Western societies which dictate profit (competition) before sharing (cooperation).
We all know that by nature most people will help each other and share when they are caught in horrific situations so cooperation is the base norm. Problem being is that there has been a constant education process going on to enforce consumerism and capitalism on people as correct behaviour. They want to turn us into Lonely Robot's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_(television_documentary_series)#2._.22The_Lonely_Robot.22_.2818_March_2007.29) that are even easier to anticipate and control.
WbRApO3k_Jo
Of course this training works on some people, some of the time, but when there is a problem many people pull together (even though the media searches out the selfish actions of the minority to portray that as normal).

Sorry, I do go on sometimes...
-- Pan

[music]

Haha, going on a bit is great when one has good things to say as you do! Yep, I'm in Australia too, and the town I was talking about is Bellingen. I will not tell you off for slating capitalism - it is an unnatural system that has been foisted upon us a form of control. Even as a child I was aware of this. I once said to my mother "why do they call it 'making money' when what it really is is 'taking money'." To amass vast sums of money, one must exploit a vast number of people. Capitalism is in place as a means of keeping the status quo of the inequitable distribution of wealth. It appeals to greed, and is the universal placebo that soothes the insecurities of the sheep. Capitalism, to my mind, also means the artificial boom and bust cycle, where in boom times they allow the sheep to gather wool, and the bust times are our visit to the shearing shed. Click go the shears indeed!

Community is about sharing. It can be a very basic thing. For example, this morning I baked sourdough bread with my children and maintained my fermenting pickles. I share sourdough starter and recipes with friends, encouraging them to do the same. I give away jars of pro-biotic rich pickles, sauerkraut and kimchi to friends, even go to their houses and start them off with their own fermenting. Taking back our nutrition is the first step to taking back our bodies, and then our lives.

Yes, yes, yes, people are by nature sharing and unselfish, but we have been hoodwinked into becoming that rogue and selfish animal that in nature is expelled from the herd.