Multi-vitamins... are they worthwhile??

[D-Day]

Fellow Avalonian's,

I have a few questions about multi-vitamins that I'm hoping you guys can help me with.

My primary question is... are multi-vitamins worthwhile? (taking into consideration product effectiveness, cost effectivenes, and any alternatives)

Secondary questions are:

If you answered 'yes' to my first question... can you recommend any particularly good brands?

If you answered 'no' to my first question, can you explain why you feel they are not worthwhile?

I appreciate any/all contributions to this thread, all opinions and comments are welcomed.

Thanks in advance... :)

[Sidney]

Yes Yes and YES. But there are alot more useless products on the market than beneficial because the industry is not regulated enough. Some things I purchase at the regular dept. store, like my melatonin and B12. But my primary multi I get from Andrew Lessman. He manufactures his own and is very quality oriented and I think he is an all around good guy. Sometimes you can get his stuff at a discounted rate on ebay, but IMO, his products are worth every penny even though they are more pricey than others. When it comes to vitamins and mineral supplements, you do get what you pay for, more often than not.

I am giving you links to his site, and the HSN site where he distributes. ( have absolutely no affiliation with him or his company, I am simply a satisfied customer)....



http://www.procapslabs.com/content/about.aspx


http://www.hsn.com/health-fitness/andrew-lessman_c-hf_a-129_xc.aspx

[D-Day]

Just found this website on my travels today: http://www.multivitaminguide.org/

There you'll find a rather comprehensive list/table providing "effecitveness ratings" for some of the most popular multi-vitamin manufactures/distributors from around the world (100 companies in total).

Some of you may find the results to be quite "interesting", especially if you are currently taking a multi-vitamin sof some kind.

It seems that many of the most well-known (and trusted) multi-vitamin manufactures are producing some of the lowest qualty products on the market.

Should we be surprised to hear that?

.. no, probably not ;)

Still though, it's interesting to see where some of the more well-known companies were positioned on this list.

[ThePythonicCow]

Just found this website on my travels today: http://www.multivitaminguide.org/

There you'll find a rather comprehensive list/table providing "effecitveness ratings" for some of the most popular multi-vitamin manufactures/distributors from around the world (100 companies in total).
The "boutique" companies with a small product line focused on the higher end seem to do best in the rating. Larger companies (such as the one I use the most, Swanson) come off less well because only one of their many products is selected, and at least in the case of Swanson, not their top of the line product.

[chancy]

Hello Everyone: I was most interested to find the vitamins I use on the website provided

http://www.multivitaminguide.org/

to my surprise they were at a dismal 1.9 showing! That's pathetic! After such good data is being shown most of us are not only getting ripped off but are using pretty much useless products that sell across north america. Shame on the manufacturers. I say we all stop buying the useless brands and all go over to the 8.0 and above brands. I realise they are more expensive but can you put a price on health?

Thank you for the great info and the bigger surprise on all the useless products being sold to each of us.
chancy

[D-Day]

Hello Everyone: I was most interested to find the vitamins I use on the website provided

http://www.multivitaminguide.org/

to my surprise they were at a dismal 1.9 showing! That's pathetic! After such good data is being shown most of us are not only getting ripped off but are using pretty much useless products that sell across north america. Shame on the manufacturers. I say we all stop buying the useless brands and all go over to the 8.0 and above brands. I realise they are more expensive but can you put a price on health?

Thank you for the great info and the bigger surprise on all the useless products being sold to each of us.
chancy

I hear you chancy :)

Although, do keep in mind what Paul correctly pointed out in his post above... that the ratings given in the link I provided relate only to one specific product for in each of the listed company's respective product ranges.

Just because one of the products in their range was found to be of low quality does not necessarily mean all their products are the same.

Many of the companies listed have diverse and extensive product ranges that include a variety of products designed to cater for different budgets etc.

So, to some degree the link/table that was referenced in my post could be considered somewhat misleading.

Unless of course the product listed for the company you've been buying your multi-vitamins from was the exact same product you've been purchasing.

... in which case you probably have good reasong to be upset with them ;)

[chancy]

Hello Everyone: I was most interested to find the vitamins I use on the website provided

http://www.multivitaminguide.org/

to my surprise they were at a dismal 1.9 showing! That's pathetic! After such good data is being shown most of us are not only getting ripped off but are using pretty much useless products that sell across north america. Shame on the manufacturers. I say we all stop buying the useless brands and all go over to the 8.0 and above brands. I realise they are more expensive but can you put a price on health?

Thank you for the great info and the bigger surprise on all the useless products being sold to each of us.
chancy

I hear you chancy :)

Although, do keep in mind what Paul correctly pointed out in his post above... that the ratings given in the link I provided relate only to one specific product for in each of the listed company's respective product ranges.

Just because one of the products in their range was found to be of low quality does not necessarily mean all their products are the same.

Many of the companies listed have diverse and extensive product ranges that include a variety of products designed to cater for different budgets etc.

So, to some degree the link/table that was referenced in my post could be considered somewhat misleading.

Unless of course the product listed for the company you've been buying your multi-vitamins from was the exact same product you've been purchasing.

... in which case you probably have good reasong to be upset with them ;)

Hello D-Day and everyone: Yes, I do have very good reason to be upset because it's the exact product! Unfortunately there's too much of this very same thing going on these days. We all think we're getting what we are paying for just to find out by chance that's it's a phony product or a real product with no quality. For a person who has taken vitamins as long as I can remember I have to say this newly acquired knowledge smacked me right in the face! My wife has often asked me why I take vitamins and I always say that these companies make quality products so that we all can be as healthy as possible. Only to find out that probably isn't true.
Just think about it....why would they only make one junk product when they could make most or all there products junk and make that much more money. Money runs the world and this is a perfect example.
chancy

[onawah]

There is a similar recent thread here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?53490-Can-I-trust-supplements-vitamins-to-have-what-they-claim&p=604881#post604881
It might be good to merge these.

[D-Day]

There is a similar recent thread here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?53490-Can-I-trust-supplements-vitamins-to-have-what-they-claim&p=604881#post604881
It might be good to merge these.

Hi Onawah, and thanks for the "threads up" ;)

I just took a quick look at the existing thread you referenced... some good info and discussion going on there already it seems.

I would be happy with a merge if mods feel inclined to do so.

The basic concept of the two threads is essentially the same so I gues it would make sense.

Feel free to do whatever you think is best.

[ThePythonicCow]

There is a similar recent thread here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?53490-Can-I-trust-supplements-vitamins-to-have-what-they-claim&p=604881#post604881. It might be good to merge these.


I just took a quick look at the existing thread you referenced... some good info and discussion going on there already it seems.

The questions asked by the two threads were a bit different, so I am cross linking them instead of merging them. Over at Can I trust supplements/vitamins to have what they claim? (Post #16) (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?53490-Can-I-trust-supplements-vitamins-to-have-what-they-claim&p=612024&viewfull=1#post612024) I posted a link to this thread, and we have in the last three posts here links to the other thread.

[Arrowwind]

Vitamins do work and there are literally thousands and thousands of studies to prove it, verified with blood analysis, organ function tests and clinical improvements of symptoms. There are several very good clinical nutrition journals available but probably not so easy to read for the average jo.... so we come to rely on the significantly stepped down articles and advertisments designed for the nutritionally and biohemically uneducated.

That was an interesting chart and I was pleased to see that the vitamins the naturopathic doctors often recommend score the highests, such as Douglas Labs and Julian Whitaker's products as well as Life Extension...

I personally use quite a few NOW products over the years as well as Jarrow in their formula called Bone Up.

Some products you take because you anticipate a theraputic effect. This means that in time you should feel a change in your health situation.. So because of this I use NOW brand pycogenol and or pine bark extract. I feel the difference... there's pain then after a few days there's no pain. Ditto for enzyme products. If you are not getting the clinical results you are anticipating make sure you are taking the right dosage. Still if nothing is happening change your product. So many times a clinical effect requries 2, 3 or even 4 times the recommended dosage on the bottle, even on the very good products... you see, they are in business to make money.

If you really want to be sure about the product you are purchasing I suggest that you order Dr Whitakers products or from Dr Jonathan Wright at his Tochoma clinic. kinda spendy http://www.life-enhancement.com/formulator/jonathan-v-wright (http://www.life-enhancement.com/formulator/jonathan-v-wright)
But life Extension products stands stronly by them and they have a whole team of doctors to assist you if you want to go that route

I have found NOW brand beta glucans and Source natural beta glucans to be effective for boosting the immune system for people who are generally run down.

But you have to remember that this is only one product in their line according to this chart
some of the companies listed may have some products that are better than others.

I recommend that if you are unsure stick with the three companies I named.

That being said, I dont take a multivitamin. I take a wide variety of select product along with a multi B vitamin. most companies can produce a halfway decent B vitamin and most studies showing the positive effects fo Bs are done with manufactured B vitamins as the are generally idenitcal to Bs you would find in food.

Now in order for your B vitamins to work well they should be taken with decent food to supply co enzymes and minerals that are all involved in helping those B vitamins to work well.

Along with a B100 or B50 vitamin I recommend the following generally to almost everyone,adult that is. Most of this stuff little kids dont need unless they have issues.

2,000mg vitamic minimum 4,000 if a smoker - personally I take much more in the Lipsomal form.
Vitamin D3 5,000 IU a day but higher dosages may be required for a theraputic value. Blood tests should be done before starting and I always recommend Biotic D3 because I have verified its effectiveness myself through multiple lab work
Chlorella 1 -2,000mg a day
Pycogenol 50 to 100mg a day
Senenium 200mcg a day
Boron 3mg several times a week
Magnesium 300mg minimum, more can be taken if needed up to 1200mg a day magnesium oronate is best, following the recommendations of Dr. Hans Napier, but magnesium malate from Douglas Labs can be very effective too.
Calcium should come from food unless there is a true calcium issue, and still then there may be better choices than taking calcium like correcting the digestive system, taking D3, vit K2, check the parathyroid gland, etc etc
Silica 500mg a day minimum - I like Jarrow liquid silica or a horsetail product
Vitamin E in mixed tocerpherols only,,, NEVER the cheap alpha
ALA 300 to 600mg a day
an Organic Greens product daily... I like Greens 8000 orac value
Shale Liquid Trace Minerals
Colloidal Copper 9(aternate daily with zinc)
Zince gluconate 15 to 25mg a day
Lugols iodine daily


after this then things get specialized according to the individual

Other products I believe to be good are Standard Process products which are costly
Doctors Best Enzyme products which are a good alternative to wobenzyme

These are a few things off of the top of my head.

[D-Day]

Vitamins do work and there are literally thousands and thousands of studies to prove it, verified with blood analysis, organ function tests and clinical improvements of symptoms. There are several very good clinical nutrition journals available but probably not so easy to read for the average jo.... so we come to rely on the significantly stepped down articles and advertisments designed for the nutritionally and biohemically uneducated.

That was an interesting chart and I was pleased to see that the vitamins the naturopathic doctors often recommend score the highests, such as Douglas Labs and Julian Whitaker's products as well as Life Extension...

I personally use quite a few NOW products over the years as well as Jarrow in their formula called Bone Up.

Some products you take because you anticipate a theraputic effect. This means that in time you should feel a change in your health situation.. So because of this I use NOW brand pycogenol and or pine bark extract. I feel the difference... there's pain then after a few days there's no pain. Ditto for enzyme products. If you are not getting the clinical results you are anticipating make sure you are taking the right dosage. Still if nothing is happening change your product. So many times a clinical effect requries 2, 3 or even 4 times the recommended dosage on the bottle, even on the very good products... you see, they are in business to make money.

If you really want to be sure about the product you are purchasing I suggest that you order Dr Whitakers products or from Dr Jonathan Wright at his Tochoma clinic. kinda spendy http://www.life-enhancement.com/formulator/jonathan-v-wright (http://www.life-enhancement.com/formulator/jonathan-v-wright)
But life Extension products stands stronly by them and they have a whole team of doctors to assist you if you want to go that route

I have found NOW brand beta glucans and Source natural beta glucans to be effective for boosting the immune system for people who are generally run down.

But you have to remember that this is only one product in their line according to this chart
some of the companies listed may have some products that are better than others.

I recommend that if you are unsure stick with the three companies I named.

That being said, I dont take a multivitamin. I take a wide variety of select product along with a multi B vitamin. most companies can produce a halfway decent B vitamin and most studies showing the positive effects fo Bs are done with manufactured B vitamins as the are generally idenitcal to Bs you would find in food.

Now in order for your B vitamins to work well they should be taken with decent food to supply co enzymes and minerals that are all involved in helping those B vitamins to work well.

Along with a B100 or B50 vitamin I recommend the following generally to almost everyone,adult that is. Most of this stuff little kids dont need unless they have issues.

2,000mg vitamic minimum 4,000 if a smoker - personally I take much more in the Lipsomal form.
Vitamin D3 5,000 IU a day but higher dosages may be required for a theraputic value. Blood tests should be done before starting and I always recommend Biotic D3 because I have verified its effectiveness myself through multiple lab work
Chlorella 1 -2,000mg a day
Pycogenol 50 to 100mg a day
Senenium 200mcg a day
Boron 3mg several times a week
Magnesium 300mg minimum, more can be taken if needed up to 1200mg a day magnesium oronate is best, following the recommendations of Dr. Hans Napier, but magnesium malate from Douglas Labs can be very effective too.
Calcium should come from food unless there is a true calcium issue, and still then there may be better choices than taking calcium like correcting the digestive system, taking D3, vit K2, check the parathyroid gland, etc etc
Silica 500mg a day minimum - I like Jarrow liquid silica or a horsetail product
Vitamin E in mixed tocerpherols only,,, NEVER the cheap alpha
ALA 300 to 600mg a day
an Organic Greens product daily... I like Greens 8000 orac value
Shale Liquid Trace Minerals
Colloidal Copper 9(aternate daily with zinc)
Zince gluconate 15 to 25mg a day
Lugols iodine daily


after this then things get specialized according to the individual

Other products I believe to be good are Standard Process products which are costly
Doctors Best Enzyme products which are a good alternative to wobenzyme

These are a few things off of the top of my head.

Thank you Arrowwind!

THAT was an excellent post, very helpful :)

[Arrowwind]

I purchase most but not all of my vitamins at www.iherb.com (http://www.iherb.com) they sell lots of soap, toothpaste, food and cosmetic stuff too

this link will tell you about a coupon to save you some bucks on product cost on your first purchase only
http://www.healthsalon.org/a-coupon-for-you/ (http://www.healthsalon.org/a-coupon-for-you/)

[Eram]

Very useful thread D-day. (bookmarked!)



Vitamin D3 5,000 IU a day but higher dosages may be required for a theraputic value. Blood tests should be done before starting and I always recommend Biotic D3 because I have verified its effectiveness myself through multiple lab work


What is biotic D3 Arrowwind?

I find it very difficult to find out which vitamin D3 is good and which is not so good (maybe).
Some is made from the oil in sheep hair, laying in the sun it makes vit. D3.
Some is made synthetic.

I just don't know where to look out for.

Talking about synthetic vitamins and minerals.
What's your opinion on that?
One reads so many warnings against those, but most of our stuff is synthetic (due to costs) and we feel great since we use it.

[Arrowwind]

[Talking about synthetic vitamins and minerals.
What's your opinion on that?
One reads so many warnings against those, but most of our stuff is synthetic (due to costs) and we feel great since we use it.

Biotec is a specific brand of D3. I get it at www.vitalady.com (http://www.vitalady.com)

Some synthetic vitamins are OK. A molecule is a molecule and I am aware of all the arguement over this. But clinical nutrition studies show that many work well. If you want to spend the money on the "whole" nutrients certainly do so, for your own peace of mind.

Where one has to be particularly cautious is in the oil based nutrients.. such as Vitamin E. All those studies on vitamin E that shows its worthless is because they used a very bad form and generally at too low a dosage to. Vitamin E should be in Mixed Tocopherols, both gamma and alpha. Fish oil supplements need to be relatively fresh and well encapsulated.

Then some supplements need to be taken with an oil, such as CoQ10. Absorption is way improved by doing so.

And then we have more recently become aware of the Lipsomal treatment of vitamin c that can be made at home. I stronly recommend that people have a sonic machine to make thier own. We have discussed this quite a bit on this forum. www.vitamincfoundation.org (http://www.vitamincfoundation.org) is the leading website to learn about vitamin c. Vitamin c is one of those nutrients made in a laboratory. Clearly this "artificial" molecule works wonders when taken orally or by IV. But lipsomal form is absorbed the best.

Now when it comes to plant based nutrients you cant loose, but getting sufficient dosage of particular vitamins for the desired theraputic effect may be hard. How much steak do you need to eat to get sufficient dosages of B12 when trying to address a nerve issue, or a fatigue issue? Taking a pharmaceutically prepared form of B12 will get you there where the steak never will. Some doctors prescibe up to 10mg a day by injection for certain things. In this pdf you will see that Dr Whitaker will prescribe 1mg a daywhich is way beyond the 1mg a month generally given to folks in nursing homes which is a laughable dosage at best. A sublingual form for maintence is good for many people to prevent issues and I recommed a dosage of at least 500mcg a day. If there is a B12 deficiency the funtion of the digestive processes of the gut need to be corrected for therein lies the root of the problem.