If slaughter houses had glass walls....

[bram]

The theme of this video is that if slaughter houses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.

I would like to challenge the meat eaters to watch this video to the end, and tell me if they agree or disagree with the statement made by Paul McCartney.
odgldsDVDis

For those who don't believe that hell exists, imagine being born into the kind of lives that our foodstock live, from birth to death- nothing could define hell more accurately (IMO).

[RMorgan]

Man, I can´t watch a video like this for 2 minutes...

Everyday I´m thankful for taking the decision to become a vegetarian.

I can´t imagine how people could comply with such monstrous and inhumane attitudes...Most people decide to go in denial mode and pretend such things don´t exist.

I wish to live long enough to see the day when we all will finally treat all animals like equals.

Anyway, I wonder if, someday, an advanced extraterrestrial race arrived here to use us as food, we would have the legit right to complain...Probably not.

Some people keep talking about other extraterrestrials races coming down here to save us, but when I think about how demonic we are as a race, I don´t think we deserve to be saved at all.

[Cristian]

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?49349-Humans-Ra-as-the-Archontic-everyday-parasite

[Fred Steeves]

Eh, sorry Bram. I don't need Sir Paul, or his pals at the U.N., lecturing me on anything from proper diet, to my idiotic carbon footprint, to I'm responsible for worldwide land and water degradation. Give me an effing break...

While there is of course merit to our treatment of animals, and a healthy argument can be made to be vegetarian, that video is 100% globalist propaganda, and my ex Beatle look alike should be ashamed of himself.

[Wind]

Watch this. It makes me laugh and cringe at the same time.

WfGMYdalClU

[SilentFeathers]

The theme of this video is that if slaughter houses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.



For those who don't believe that hell exists, imagine being born into the kind of lives that our foodstock live, from birth to death- nothing could define hell more accurately (IMO).

Call me a neanderthal, but I love a good steak!

If our ears were tuned right we'd hear carrots scream as we bit in them, life is life no matter if it has roots, feet, or fins.....this is the world in which we live in.

Propaganda to gross people out and brainwash them in to eating GMO grains etc., only.

Hey Fred, there is an uncanny resemblance. :)

PS: I wonder if Sir Paul gets a Monsanto check on the side.....?

[RMorgan]

Eh, sorry Bram. I don't need Sir Paul, or his pals at the U.N., lecturing me on anything from proper diet, to my idiotic carbon footprint, to I'm responsible for worldwide land and water degradation. Give me an effing break...

While there is of course merit to our treatment of animals, and a healthy argument can be made to be vegetarian, that video is 100% globalist propaganda, and my ex Beatle look alike should be ashamed of himself.

Hey Fred,

Well, PETA is a worldwide organization and they need a worldwide famous person as spokesman to get their word out.

Personally, I couldn´t care less if it´s Paul or resurrected Jesus who´s presenting this video, because the subject itself is 100% legitimate.

The content of the video is as real as it can get and that´s what really matters, in my opinion.

If companies who explore the meat market have the right to bombard people with propaganda 24/7/365, pro-vegetarian organizations also have the right to use all the tools they can to propagate their cause; If it includes using an ultra-famous person as spokesman to reinforce their cause, so be it.

And, if convincing people to become vegetarians is part of a "globalist agenda", then I´m 100% on their side on this one, because it would actually be unprecedentedly beneficial for the human race and the planet Earth as a whole.

Cheers,

Raf.

[panopticon]

I eat meat and don't find this a convincing argument for me to stop.

The reason I disagree is that McCartney is taking worst practice and displaying it as normal practice to deliver a message he supports.

Good on him if that's what he wants to do.

Yes, factory farming is an horrific practice.
You'll never hear me disagree with anyone on that.

As I said just over a year ago:



We live in the forest and breed/grow our own tucker.
Permaculture teaches to do that.
Breed the chooks/ducks and protect and feed them so they can do work for us.
When there are too many roosters I kill the extras.
Why do I do this?
Have you ever seen 5 roosters in close combat?
There is nothing nice and pretty about it. They don't sit around and chat about things. They fight to the death.

Maybe you'd suggest I let them out to run wild.
Tried that for a bit. Quolls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Quoll) ate them (sorry murdered them).
Horrible terrifying death that being dragged around by the neck with all those sharp little teeth tearing the flesh from their necks I supposed so I stopped putting them out at night and returned to slaughtering the extra males.

We live in harmony with the wildlife and everybody gets along fine.
I don't tell the wedge-tailed eagles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge-tailed_Eagle) to not eat the ducklings, so why should you?

While I am not evidently as spiritually evolved as you I respect your right to stand on your soap box and preach what you want.

Reckon the wedgies (wedge-tailed eagles) don't care though.


I know the farmers who breed the animals I eat.
I know the conditions they have lived in (no it is not a factory environment).
I know the slaughterer and butcher.
The meat I eat is not treated nor killed in the fashion depicted in the PETA propaganda video (what happened to the Pamela Anderson one [not the soft porn one either] that usually gets dragged out).

BTW my step sons have never had a problem with stun guns not stunning an animal.

As for fish, I eat them all the time and love nothing better than the taste of a good bit of snapper or a trout I caught from the lakes.

Yes, over fishing is a problem, but ol' Paul over simplifies it to drive an emotive point.

Um, SARS is caused by over farming? Obesity, heart disease, cancer and diabetes is caused by meat eating?
Sugar, salt, additives and lack of exercise lead to the diseases mentioned not meat (especially fish, which does the opposite).

Also... Breeding animals for the table is not bad for the environment in the way Paul is talking about.
Excessive broadscale agricultural practices (eg cropping of cereal) is worse for the environment due to the need for nitrogen rich fertilizer to supply nutrients for growth in nutrient poor soils.

I like a good vegie dish and don't eat meat all the time.
Human's are omnivorous which means that's just fine thanks all the same.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[RMorgan]

The theme of this video is that if slaughter houses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.



For those who don't believe that hell exists, imagine being born into the kind of lives that our foodstock live, from birth to death- nothing could define hell more accurately (IMO).

Call me a neanderthal, but I love a good steak!

If our ears were tuned right we'd hear carrots scream as we bit in them, life is life no matter if it has roots, feet, or fins.....this is the world in which we live in.

Propaganda to gross people out and brainwash them in to eating GMO grains etc., only.

Hey Fred, there is an uncanny resemblance. :)

PS: I wonder if Sir Paul gets a Monsanto check on the side.....?

Hey mate,

It isn´t Monsanto propaganda; Far from it.

Monsanto earns money from selling grains (soy, corn, etc...) mostly to feed livestock animals. Livestock consumes about 75% of all grains produced in the world.

Only here in Brazil, we have more cattle than people, let alone other livestock animals, like pigs and chicken.

So, if all people were vegetarians, Monsanto would indeed have a huge loss, instead of profit, because grain crops all over the world would actually be reduced by 75%, which would also, as a side effect, be extremely beneficial regarding the problem of deforestation, specially in countries like my own, where gigantic areas of forest are destroyed daily to raise cattle and to plant the food which sustains them.

Raf.

[SilentFeathers]

The theme of this video is that if slaughter houses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.



For those who don't believe that hell exists, imagine being born into the kind of lives that our foodstock live, from birth to death- nothing could define hell more accurately (IMO).

Call me a neanderthal, but I love a good steak!

If our ears were tuned right we'd hear carrots scream as we bit in them, life is life no matter if it has roots, feet, or fins.....this is the world in which we live in.

Propaganda to gross people out and brainwash them in to eating GMO grains etc., only.

Hey Fred, there is an uncanny resemblance. :)

PS: I wonder if Sir Paul gets a Monsanto check on the side.....?

Hey mate,

It isn´t Monsanto propaganda; Far from it.

Monsanto earns money from selling grains (soy, corn, etc...) mostly to feed livestock animals. Livestock consumes about 75% of all grains produced in the world.

Only here in Brazil, we have more cattle than people, let alone other livestock animals, like pigs and chicken.

So, if all people were vegetarians, Monsanto would indeed have a huge loss, instead of profit, because grain crops all over the world would actually be reduced by 75%, which would also, as a side effect, be extremely beneficial regarding the problem of deforestation, specially in countries like my own, where gigantic areas of forest are destroyed daily to raise cattle and to plant the food which sustain them.

Raf.

To go vegetarian here in the US almost guarantees one to become a GMO junkie unless you get your own good seeds and grow your own food. No GMO's are labeled here and they're everywhere according to the research I've done.

Yeah, I was a bit "out there" with my comment you referring to...at least I'm hoping I was :)

[Fred Steeves]

And, if convincing people to become vegetarians is part of a "globalist agenda", then I´m 100% on their side on this one, because it would actually be unprecedentedly beneficial for the human race and the planet Earth as a whole.


Perhaps you didn't watch the last 3 minutes Raf. If Sir Paul had keps his little talk just to the cruelty issue, or even his argument for health benefits, I would have no problem, I'm thinking of going vegetarian myself, or close to it. But he doesn't. The last 3 minutes show the globalist poisonous and psychopathic influence on this planet, and blames it on your average person that likes a good steak, or fish.

Good propaganda always contains a nugget of truth, and it always pits us against one another, never them. To me anyway, this is akin to current propaganda that the American military machine spread across the globe is good and just, but the average American civilian gun owner is dangerous, and needs to be stopped for the good of mankind.

Something's wrong with this picture.

[Ki's]

I am an unapologetic carnivore...however, that being said, I REFUSE (and have for a very long time) to have anything to do with commercially produced meat or eggs.
If I can't raise it or hunt it, I purchase from a local farm that raises grass fed, hormone and antibiotic free meat that is humanly butchered.
I watched (part) of a video some time back about slaughterhouses...watched some sub-human droog hollering to his co-worker, "make it scream, make it scream." as his co-worker shoveled living, pain ridden and terrified cattle into a chute with a backhoe.
Mmmmm....yummy. Apparently we like our meat 'flavored' as well.
No thanks. If I had to make a choice, I'd rather do without meat than support that industry. It disgusts me.

[RMorgan]

And, if convincing people to become vegetarians is part of a "globalist agenda", then I´m 100% on their side on this one, because it would actually be unprecedentedly beneficial for the human race and the planet Earth as a whole.


Perhaps you didn't watch the last 3 minutes Raf. If Sir Paul had keps his little talk just to the cruelty issue, or even his argument for health benefits, I would have no problem, I'm thinking of going vegetarian myself, or close to it. But he doesn't. The last 3 minutes show the globalist poisonous and psychopathic influence on this planet, and blames it on your average person that likes a good steak, or fish.

Good propaganda always contains a nugget of truth, and it always pits us against one another, never them. To me anyway, this is akin to the current propaganda that the American military machine spread across the globe is good and just, but the average American civilian gun owner is dangerous, and needs to be stopped for the good of mankind.

Something's wrong with this picture.

Hey Fred,

You´re right, I didn´t watch the last minutes, in fact, I can´t watch such videos for more than a couple of minutes...My heart can´t stand it.

Anyway, I´m not a big fan of PETA myself, but regarding the cause of vegetarianism, I´m an 100% supporter.

I recommend people to not support any major NGO organization anyway, because the money you give them goes mostly to pay salaries than for the causes themselves.

If anyone decides to be a vegetarian, do it for your own reasons; There´s plenty legit material to be studied on the web.

Raf.

[gooty64]

Monsanto earns money from selling grains (soy, corn, etc...) mostly to feed livestock animals. Livestock consumes about 75% of all grains produced in the world.
I am in SW Iowa this morning looking for an acreage to buy.

I'd like to set up a little sustainable homestead with no meat or at least a very small amount on my farm.

Sadly, the whole entire effing heartland of the the USA is a field to grow grain and meat.

Just so fat Americans can eat hamburgers and steaks.

McDonalds and Steakhouses

If we reduced our meat eating by 80-90% we could all have a couple acres and grow our own vegetables, grains, eggs, milk, cheese, fruit.

Thinkkaboudditt!

[panopticon]

I'd like to set up a little sustainable homestead with no meat or at least a very small amount on my farm.
Sadly, the whole entire effing heartland of the the USA is a field to grow grain and meat.
Just so fat Americans can eat hamburgers and steaks.
McDonalds and Steakhouses

If we reduced our meat eating by 80-90% we could all have a couple acres and grow our own vegetables, grains, eggs, milk, cheese, fruit.


Couldn't agree more.
The concentration of red meat in westernised diets is ridiculous.

[Pam]

First of all, is your average Jo innocent at all levels just because he just wants to enjoy a steak? Yes..if there is no demand there is no need to supply. I am saddened that this slaughter can be viewed and then written off due to some intellectual gymnastics. The issue is what we do to other living things on the planet..This is my greatest shame as a human. There is no reason to treat animals like this except to make as much money as possible...How can mankind ever evolve, or find peaceful resolutions when this atrocity continues unchecked.. Would this video effect you differently if the slaughtered animals were every dear pet you have ever known?

[Kryztian]

Just want to say I agree with ALL the thoughts above. We humans are:

(1) Consuming and producing way to much stuff in a way that that is toxic to our planet and abusive and cruel to our fellow creatures.
(2) That fact that we are consuming and producing way to much stuff in a way that that is toxic to our planet and abusive and cruel to our fellow creatures, is being used to shame and suppress us by the powers that be, and it is impossible for us human not to leave a trail behind if we are a civilization of free humans.

Currently we are exploiting our planet in a thoughtless manner without regard to the consequences. We don't need to take a 180 degree about face, but we need to take a look at what we are doing. We need to find the middle ground.

I happen to like PETA - it shocks people and can change your way of thinking. The fact that people get pissed off by their videos is proof of their meaningfulness. This isn't to say I fully agree with them.

If you want to enjoy a steak, great. But you should know where it came from. You should know how it got on your plate.

Bon Appetit!

[chancy]

Hello Everyone:
I must say that was probably the biggest laugh of a video I have seen online! At least they could have done it right instead of making a mockery of anything that has a heartbeat!
For myself:
I can't understand the problem with meats? I know that eating too much red meat is not good for you but in moderation it's ok.
I can't understand why anyone would not want our animals to be healthy and in good shape. Without the beef industry we would have alot of sick cows and other animals on the farm. With out all animals that were portrayed in the video we would be overrun by animals if they weren't used for meat by us.
I can't understand why people can't be vegetarians without always coming down on the meat industries. Do I work for any meat industries that answer is no I don't.
I can't understand why all these paid advocates of no meats get the attention that they do since I am sure most don't really care what is consumed on this planet as long as they get a pay check.
I don't understand why we have to appease or make a politically correct stand on our eating habits. Is the next thing going to be how much water each person consumes a day to stay alive?
Talk about a waste of time!
You can see what happens if you are familiar with Canadian Geese. The government (Canadian) has basically stopped hunting due to so many regulations and now we are over run by the wonderful but pesty birds.
Let's move onto more important preoccupied thinking such as "garbage and where to put it" starting with this video!
chancy

[modwiz]

I see dead people.

[mahalall]

Grating a Sir Macca burger on a meat free monday.

http://www.lindamccartneyfoods.co.uk/

Thanks Paul,

[sirdipswitch]

Ahh... the good life... BBQ'ed Prime Porterhouse, some good ol texas chile, corn on the cob, smeared in real butter, and a bottle o beer, and life just don't get no better. chuckle chuckle.

Tried raisin my own beef. Did it all right too. Bought me an angus steer, 2 days old, and named him T-Bone. ccc. Kept him round the farm, (had 10 acres, yep barn too, and some horses) for 6 months, and then put him out to pasture at a friends place, who had a bunch of cows on 80 acres, and left him out there for a year. One day I grabbed my trailer and headed out to get T-Bone. My friend came out, with his two boys, (teenagers) brought my Lady friend that I lived with at the time, and one of her boys. Everyone was talkin at the same time,tryin to figure out how we were gonna "catch" this wild steer, and get it in the trailer. I walked away from the group, cuped my hands around my mouth, and yelled T-Bone. Now everyone was rollin on the ground laughin thier merry little a--es off. Then I started clappin my hands. That was how I had always called him from across our 10 acres, and here came one steer, from a group of about 10, on the other side of the pasture, runnin toward me, like he was runnin from a fire. He ran right up to me and stopped, so I could pet him, and then followed me into the trailer like a puppy. I walked out, shut the door, turned to my friends and said: "Well, guess we're done here."ccc. They were all standin there with thier mouths hangin open. (Little did they know, that he had been my playmate everyday, untill he went to pasture. cc) I took him home and then fed him nothing but good alfalfa, and grain for 6 weeks. I had no doubts at all that this was going to be some really great eating. The day came when it was finally determined to "butcher" my prized beef.

WHAT? Kill it? Hellno I couldn't kill it. Took it to the sale, and got top dollar for it, so that it could go make a decent meal for someone else. But I couldn't even begin to eat it. I get all mine from store, and don't know it personally. cccc.

We are meat eaters folks. They are not supposed to be our friends and pets. They were put here for us to eat. Period. Get over it, we have far more important things to worry about. Like which ET's are friendly, and which ones are using us for "their" food supply. ccc.

[RMorgan]

They were put here for us to eat. Period.

Hey mate,

I´m interested to see how would you develop this statement further, if you don´t mind.

I mean, who told you that or how you came to such an assertive conclusion.

Raf.

[Jean-Luc]

According to our friend Simon, even Human/Alian hybrids would be... veggies, or at least adversed to meat... for most :)



You mean Human/Alien (with the alien genitics along the lines of grey type?).
Head shape is far more domed and forehead is flater, hair is thin and whispy and eyebrows are thin or non-existint, eyes are more almound and body build is slight.
most are telepathic, adversion to meat in food for most. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30323-Simon-Parkes-about-Mantis-Aliens-Reptiles-and-other-aliens.&p=612117&viewfull=1#post612117

[kaon]

They were put here for us to eat. Period.

Hey mate,

I´m interested to see how would you develop this statement further, if you don´t mind.

I mean, who told you that or how you came to such an assertive conclusion.

Raf.

Not to speak for sirdipswitch, but he could be referring to the Bible:
Genesis 9:2-3
And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Bram. I can't watch the entire video because I find it appalling. I don't believe that all meat processors are so inhumane, so it is part propaganda but denying that the abuse happens makes no sense either.

[Carmen]

Sadly all Paul's wealth, talent and vegetarianism did not save his beloved wife from dying of cancer. Sorry to go off topic a bit but I have often wondered why Linda could not have been cured of cancer with all the resources they had!

[Carmody]

I know a guy, who at the age of 14.5, as a junior, went to work in a relative's slaughterhouse. I asked him to tell me his stories of what it was like. in detail.

The answers and the stories would horrify most people.

Even the most hardened and 'wired to be intensive' 'people where having breakdowns, while working in these slaughterhouses. Let me repeat, so it can be clear: Even the psychotics where loosing it.

I myself, have seen young insenstive men..laughingly put a live chicken into a chicken de-plucking machine. It is designed to rip their feathers off -from a dead decapitated chicken corpse. You hold the feet, and then put them in, and the feathers are ripped off, and then... hanging onto the feet, you pull the de-feathered corpse ...back out. Imagine doing this to a live bird.

[greybeard]

My mother said " If you cant kill it, don't eat it"
Ive been a vegetarian all my life apart from a brief lapse.
Thats my nature it would seem.
If others are happy meat eaters, fine-- Ive nothing against that,

Chris

[Ernie Nemeth]

There was this amazing video about a dude against meat eating giving a talk at a high school a while back. It was posted in a thread. I almost gave up meat after that but honestly, I do not know what I would substitute it with.
If someone were to start a thread and teach meatless cooking classes, I would avidly participate. I was actually thinking about starting a thread like that this morning on the ride into work but decided I would only botch it as I have no practical experience.

Once I was called for a service call for a hoist in a slaughterhouse. The hoist was right in the middle of the killing floor. I had a bird's eye view from the top of my laddar for the slaughter of, first a large pig and then a cow. It was horrific. I was in shock but I was also riveted to the spectacle. It was not humane is all I can say. Those animals sure looked like they suffered and they certainly were terrified. They fire a bolt into the back of the brain that they claim severes the sensing part of the brain...I don't think it works.

edit to add: Okay, I watched it. Horrendous!

[chancy]

From Post #18
"You can see what happens if you are familiar with Canadian Geese. The government (Canadian) has basically stopped hunting due to so many regulations and now we are over run by the wonderful but pesty birds."

Hello Everyone: As I said above here is what happens to a beautiful park or picknick table or....

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/goose-cooked-canada-geese-growing-reputation-world-most-202505926.html

Maybe animal lovers should worry about something else because I am an animal lover but understand that there needs to be a balance instead of NO KILLING OF ANIMALS FOR MEAT EATING AT ALL.

chancy

[Carmody]

From Post #18
"You can see what happens if you are familiar with Canadian Geese. The government (Canadian) has basically stopped hunting due to so many regulations and now we are over run by the wonderful but pesty birds."

Hello Everyone: As I said above here is what happens to a beautiful park or picknick table or....

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/goose-cooked-canada-geese-growing-reputation-world-most-202505926.html

Maybe animal lovers should worry about something else because I am an animal lover but understand that there needs to be a balance instead of NO KILLING OF ANIMALS FOR MEAT EATING AT ALL.

chancy

Don't think about it too much, until you order duck at a Chinese restaurant in the Toronto area.

The geese understand that they must keep a certain distance from humans. Well, just get a 20 foot collapsible rod, with a noose on the end. An asian man was found with a giant trunk load of these 'protected' dead geese in his full sized car, in the Toronto area. You can guess where they where intended to go. :p

[Abhaya]

I have Argued this subject to many times and don't have the patience to go another round. But let me say that the opinions of some on this issue make me sick. And this is one of the few times I have been ashamed to have been associated with members of this normally amazing forum. Taking the path of least resistance is our responsibility as an "advanced species". And let me tell you a cow getting its throat slit is experiencing a hell of a lot more pain then a carrot does when it's pulled from the ground. We have to kill to live. This is true. But we don't have to be "Neanderthals". (Hey u said it)

[Simonm]

Paradoxically, I am an animal lover and a meat eater. What I hate are the slaughter houses that are badly regulated, unethical and downright wrong. Wholesale slaughter of millions of animals is just wrong. I buy all my meat from a local farm where they raise slaughter and butcher their own meat. done so on just demand, not for just the sake of it, like so many commercial slaughter houses. The meat I eat has been raised in a decent free atmosphere and slaughtered with compassion.

I hate the needless killing of animals for just that sake. And yes, I have killed my own animals for personal consumption.

Edit to add: A mate of mine once said that any vegatarian would kick down a butchers door if they were starving. :)

[Fred Steeves]

Once again, look at how easily our programming can be activated, to have this normally loving and coherent group at each others' throats. In general we are played like a fine Stradivarius. The notes we put forth on cue must be absolutely exquisite to the performing artist.

[Simonm]

Once again, look at how easily our programming can be activated, to have this normally loving and coherent group at each othes' throats. In general we are played like a fine Stradivarius.

As long as it's not threads on meat eating or perpetual motion ;)

[TargeT]

I know a guy, who at the age of 14.5, as a junior, went to work in a relative's slaughterhouse. I asked him to tell me his stories of what it was like. in detail.

The answers and the stories would horrify most people.

Even the most hardened and 'wired to be intensive' 'people where having breakdowns, while working in these slaughterhouses. Let me repeat, so it can be clear: Even the psychotics where loosing it.

I myself, have seen young insenstive men..laughingly put a live chicken into a chicken de-plucking machine. It is designed to rip their feathers off -from a dead decapitated chicken corpse. You hold the feet, and then put them in, and the feathers are ripped off, and then... hanging onto the feet, you pull the de-feathered corpse ...back out. Imagine doing this to a live bird.

I wish I had a machine like that, when I hunt ducks it takes a LONG time to pluck feathers (I like how you use loaded words like "rip" feathers".. there is no ripping involved)




From Post #18
"You can see what happens if you are familiar with Canadian Geese. The government (Canadian) has basically stopped hunting due to so many regulations and now we are over run by the wonderful but pesty birds."

Hello Everyone: As I said above here is what happens to a beautiful park or picknick table or....

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/goose-cooked-canada-geese-growing-reputation-world-most-202505926.html

Maybe animal lovers should worry about something else because I am an animal lover but understand that there needs to be a balance instead of NO KILLING OF ANIMALS FOR MEAT EATING AT ALL.

chancy

yes, wild life MANAGEMENT should be the aproach, not protection... unless we are just to kill all natural predators also; I assume that is the next step, or maybe we train wolfs to be vegan?





Once again, look at how easily our programming can be activated, to have this normally loving and coherent group at each othes' throats. In general we are played like a fine Stradivarius. The notes we put forth on cue must be absolutely exquisite to the performing artist.

it is interesting to watch, the finger pushes the button, and some are heavily triggered.

Difference of opinion is good, difference in general is good, it is the KEY to exsistance. the human mind only observes anything based on contrast, this should guide us to a much more accepting stance of difference.

That thought can be expanded in so many ways, this topic especially.

[RMorgan]

yes, wild life MANAGEMENT should be the aproach, not protection... unless we are just to kill all natural predators also; I assume that is the next step, or maybe we train wolfs to be vegan?


Hey mate,

The problem is, who´s going to manage us?

As far as I´m aware, we´re the main cause of most ecological unbalances on Earth.

Nature, on its original state, always finds a way to balance life, but us, we have found many ways to maneuver around natural laws and here we are, trying to manage the whole world without having a clue about how to manage ourselves...

In my opinion, we need to protect other species from ourselves and let nature take care of the rest; The less we interfere, the better.

If there are some geese covering some park benches with their excrement, well, so be it. Geese exist much longer before benches...Probably the parks and benches are in the wrong place, not the geese.

Anyway, if we compare the level of ecological pestilence, we´re at least 1.000 times worse than geese, so we don´t have the authority to complain about them.

We, in our current society, behave like intruders, not like part of this planet´s fauna...Maybe a pacific integration would be a nice starting point towards evolution.

Just my two cents anyway.

Cheers,

Raf.

[TargeT]

Humanity in its known history does not live as a part of nature, we ARE intruders, we shape the land to our needs (do you live in a house or built structure of any type?) we will have to accept this and do as best we can to balance it.

if you’re a vegan, great, but know that you are ruining nature to eat your plants (unless you forage in the woods for food, do you?) the hypocrisy and misunderstanding / misrepresentation in this thread is quite interesting.

we don't need to protect anything from us (unless you are an animal RIGHTS activists (like PETA & the terrorist group A.L.F.), animals do not have RIGHTS, we should care for their welfare, but NOT assign them rights as if they were our equals), we just need to manage whatever we use for abundant availability; this can be easily done & is quite successfully done in Alaska with moose and caribou at the expense of predator population (which isn't in danger, it is just controlled and limited as WE are the predator we are mostly concerned with).

[NeweDat]

So hard to figure out which side of this argument I fall on. I'm a vegetarian when my living situation allows it(which is not right now) but I've never been one of those preachy vegos. My friends who got me into it would preach to anyone at the drop of a hat about the benefits of veges over meat. I've never liked that. If you want to eat meat then eat meat, but take the responsibility to learn whats involved in getting that meat onto your plate because I think 95% of people would be disturbed to witness what actually happens at industrial slaughterhouses and what it takes to keep these things running.

[Carmody]

It is also a spiritual question. A dimensional question.

I've had the pleasure, if you will.... of internally re-living the death of the animal that I'm eating.

I can assure you that it is not pleasant. (I pick up the imprint in the meat, vibrationally, if you will)

And that those humans who are dead, who have died horribly, or suddenly, tend to stick around as they don't know they are dead from being in perpetual anguish or a perpetual nightmarish state.

And that when people die, or have OBE's..they sometimes run into favorite old pets. Imagine being reunited with your favorite old dog. Happens all the time.

I can assure you that a pig is AT LEAST..twice as smart and/or twice as intelligent as your old pup.

Pigs KNOW their death is coming. And it fills them with great horror and fear.

Same as it would... for YOU.

Now, the idea of kosher kills. That the animal knows it is dead as it has been brought to it's death in a knowing state. Thus, their little version of spirit..can leave. Their energies can dissipate properly. Are those energies actually there?

Remember, if your dog is.... why not the pig, or the horse, or the cow, then?

to kill them while they are in an unnatural environment, full of fear, and then NOT help their energies leave this place, like that of dispelling ghosts and unwanted spirits?

The ritual native hunting kill is done that way for a reason --and those are very correct and relevant reasons.

So, natural kill, kosher kill, or the now standard slaughterhouse butchering?

What's it gonna be?

Or to understand... that... now that you do know that the energetics and the fears are real, can you still eat the meat? or to continue in ignorance.... or the lying to the self?

What's it gonna be?

"Everything is permitted" .....and a certain level of ignorance and innocence is permitted.

But.... to do things in a state of KNOWING...now that is a different kettle of fish, a different 'world of self hurt' that one is stepping into. That.... moves into the world of cost, and price.

~~~~~~~~

One cannot eat the flesh of the avatar of a given spirit... and call themselves evolved. Or even be evolving. It really is that simple. the ending of the eating of the flesh of others is a thing that must be confronted in the given self. it is an eventual confrontation. End of story. It is an issue of body and ego, not the intellect.

The rest of any argument for the eating of meat.... is just self affected emotional rationalization. It is a self lie. It's crap, pure and simple.

And you know it. That's the sad part. Each of you really do know this.

BTW, I'm not a vegetarian. But I have been, at times. And I will be again.

[ThePythonicCow]

Sadly all Paul's wealth, talent and vegetarianism did not save his beloved wife from dying of cancer. Sorry to go off topic a bit but I have often wondered why Linda could not have been cured of cancer with all the resources they had!

It is probably easier for us nobodies to choose alternative cancer treatments than for prominent celebrities such as Linda McCartney or Steve Jobs. Their cure would provide too much publicity to alternative medical options.

[TargeT]

The rest of any argument for the eating of meat.... is just self affected emotional rationalization. It is a self lie. It's crap, pure and simple.

And you know it. That's the sad part. Each of you really do know this.

BTW, I'm not a vegetarian. But I have been, at times. And I will be again.

I don't see a plant as very different from an animal, both have Aura's; both have energy signatures both are a collection of single cells working together for a larger goal. Just because one's way of life is very foreign to ours does not mean it is any less "alive".

plants are not harvested "kosher" or natural, nor are they grown as such; the damage of agriculture on the earth is much greater than the meat industry.

either way we are consuming converted cosmic rays, to label or judge anyone as overly different from another (plant or meat eater) is emotional rationalization IMO, and the "tell" is the "emotion" evoking words used when discussing either side.

it seems so clear really, but then divide and conqure is not suppose to be noticed by those being divided and conqured.

[161803398]

My personal opinion about slaughterhouses is that they are training grounds for psychopaths and thats why i refuse to eat anything killed in a slaughterhouse. Governments always unleash their perverts on people they want to control. I stopped eating meat entirely though because I love animals. (While I dont see any real comparison between what is done in a slaughterhouse to beings with nerve endings and eating plants, I also dont kill the roots of plants I eat if I can help it. The life of the plant is in the roots.)

I have two friends who, at one time, couldnt imagine never eating meat again. One of them drives a truck and had to deliver or pick something up from a slaughterhouse so he had a chance to see the animals being herded in to their deaths. He said it reminded him of people being taken into a concentration camp and he said he cried because of the look in their eyes. The other guy was with him at the time. He didnt cry but became a vegan on the spot and has lost a lot of weight. Now the first guy tries to eat only vegetables and has discovered that vegetables are actually much tastier than meat.

http://www.amazon.ca/Vegan-Cheap-Recipes-Simple-Strategies/dp/0470472243

Theres something about breach of trust I just cant stand. If we learn to be cynical, as a society, we are screwed and in the hands of the controllers.

Last point is I dont want to consume a lot of adrenalin and cortisol and whatever other hormones go into the meat of a being that is terrified. That also, leads to me think, sometimes, in my darkest moments that the whole enterprise of slaughterhouses is designed to weaken and pervert humanity.

[lunaflare]

Perhaps Slaughter Houses serve a dark and menacing agenda. Yes, Blood and Sacrifice for Reptilian Lord type agenda. Thus the issue is two-fold: Slaughter-Houses without any serious humane regulation, create "loosh" for parasitic entities. The type of entities who are not invested in encouraging the compassionate nature of human beings. The type of entities that harm and do not care
Secondly, employees of the aforementioned Slaughter-Houses are cruel, insensitive psychopaths or soon learn to become so.

Being autistic, Temple Grandin, can attune to the immense fear, panic and terror animals experience in slaughter houses. She helped change the design and process of killing. "Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be" (paraphrasing here). She eats meat. So the questions are...
Why do we want to be cruel?
Why do we want to make animals suffer in brutal conditions?
Why don't we care?
Or do we?

I'm vegetarian because it is an empowered decision I choose to make. I am not able to watch those videos. Too upsetting. But yes, there are organic dairy and meat farms. I wish there were more. Generally, policy makers and governments are not on side with this concept, however, and make it difficult for farmers. Surprise. surprise.
The dairy Industry is equally dismal in its treatment of animals.
I believe we have been conditioned to accepting that we need both. And also the Christian doctrine that we have dominion over animals..

[leavesoftrees]

Anyway, I wonder if, someday, an advanced extraterrestrial race arrived here to use us as food, we would have the legit right to complain...Probably not..

Have you read Michael Faber's Under the skin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Skin_(novel)

[161803398]

I dont know if this happens to everyone but I stopped eating meat in stages. Finally, after I hadnt eaten any meat at all for a while, the smell of it became disgusting to me.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

grain crops all over the world would actually be reduced by 75%

Well, they could of course be exported to the nations around the world where people could use a bite to eat, and even then we would have a pretty steep surplus after the exporting, lets make it organic first, after that we can also discuss the veggie rights of brocolli because as we all know "brocolli is people too".

Ever considered eating algea, chia, hemp seeds and what have we, their proteine/mineral/fatty acid content is waaaaaaaaaay higher then in the average steak, i do eat steak once in a while btw, i also slam down the other named stuff in shakes with some juice (or capsules i make myself, for on the go). To get fatty acids into your diet you can eeeeeeeasily turn to those sources, some Green Pasture, butter oil caps/ fermented cod liver oil will handle the rest ( and its in a jar in capsules, can not be made any easier for you)


Last point is I dont want to consume a lot of adrenalin and cortisol and whatever other hormones go into the meat of a being that is terrified. That also, leads to me think, sometimes, in my darkest moments that the whole enterprise of slaughterhouses is designed to weaken and pervert humanity.

Best point made so far imo, this crap does have an effect on people, i cant be any other way, they are just another compound in your bloodstream and as with any other compound they do their thing.

[bram]

I think that what the responses to this posting show most is the extent to which the writers can empathize with the suffering of the animals (assuming that everyone who commented in favour of meat-eating actually watched the video). As expected, these cover a wide range of empathic feeling.

For myself, I believe that I have lived such a life as these animals live on at least one occasion, so I have no difficulty in seeing myself going through what these animals go through, and feeling at least in part their suffering as my own.

I also think that many of us could find ourselves taking rebirth as animals in future lifetimes, and there is no doubt for me that these animals are suffering this rebirth in hell as a result of their past life karmas. For me it is imperative to get as far away as I can from meat-eating to try and avoid this happening to me again.

I think we often take for granted that we will be reborn in human form and I think we are wrong to do so. The buddhist Ajahn Chah told a story of a fishing village in Thailand where he said that the villagers had swapped places with the fish many times over thousands of years causing immeasurable unnecessary suffering.

Finally, I would like to confirm that my motives in posting the video were to make this information available to anybody who was unaware of the conditions in our meat factories. I personally visited a ''live'' abbatoir in the UK 35 years ago to carry out a building survey early in my career, and I can confirm that the conditions and human behaviour shown in this video are not unusual.

What you do with this information is, of course, up to you! However, please rest assured that I am not an agent of the PTB (and nor IMO is the vegan movement in general), nor am I intending to ''divide and conquer''. In fact I think it is highly manipulative and diversionary to suggest so.

Love, bram

[Lettherebelight]

Thanks, Bram. I don't think that video with Paul McCartney is necessarily propaganda. And even if it was, the footage is real.

I think it is important to see it because those scenes are what actually go on, just so people can have their turkey dinner or bacon butty. I think most of us would rather do anything else than see these atrocities. 'Yeah, Yeah I know what goes on, I don't need to see it again. It's just an emotional response...we're all just chemical compounds, etc'

One has to be a little brave to watch it.

[D-Day]

This issue has been raised numerous times on Avalon in the past, and it always seems to induce the same polarizing efffect on the community.

At the end of the day, I don't think there can (or ever wil) be a mutually satisfying consesus reached on tihs particular subject between the two opposing sides.

History has shown us time and time again that a lot of folks are simply not ready (or willing) to move beyond the emotional aspects of this issue so that logic, common sense, and rational thought processes can be employed.

The fact of the matter is, that our universe is comprised of energy and governed by a constinous flow of energetic exchanges and relationships that take place on multiple levels at all times.

As far as I'm aware, that energy can only ever be trasnferred, transmuted and/or recycled... but can never be destroyed, and is never wasted.

Knowing this, I fail to see how anyone can suggest that something as natural as consuming energy in order to sustain one's self is in some way vulgar, perverse, uncivilized, or unacceptable.

At the end of the day, what difference does it make whether a person chooses to consume the energy contained within a plant, an animal, or both for that matter, in order to facilitate that objective?

From an energetic standpoint, the fundamental processes in each variation of the situation I just described is essentially the same - at least in my view.

Now I realise some here will take issue with that last point, primarily because there are stark differences between the methods by which animals are slaughtered to produce meat, and the methods that are used to harvest plants for the same purpose.

On that point I agree that from a visual perspective it is certainly more pallatable to observe a tomato being picked than it is to observe a cow having its throat slit... and I can certainly appreciate where people are coming from in that sense.

With that said, I should also state now, and for the record, that I do not condone the inhumane treatment of animals (or any other life forms for that matter) in any way, shape, or form.

However, with reagrd to the above-mentioned scenarios, I do feel that the adverse reactions of some have more to do with emotional programming and conditioning than with one or another of the scenarios being more or less acceptable.

This becomes more evident if one views it from the perspective that both scenarios are representative of fundamental energetic exchanges that are naturally occuring in nature and simply a fact of life in this reality.

... ever swatched a lion eating an antelope on the plains of Africa, or a rabbit eating grass in a field??

Well, I'm pretty sure that both the lion and the rabbit don't feel guilt or shame for doing what they are naturally and genetically programmed to do.

Anyway, it seems to me that people who view the situation from an emotional perspecive are simply allowing their emotional responses to get the better of them.

It is a well established fact that both plants and animals have their own consciousness, just as humans do.

Many scientific studies and experiements have been conducted where the conclusion has been reached that plants are conscious beings that will respond to emotional and other stimuli... if you don't believe me then go look into it for yourself.

In any case, if we can agree that plants have consciousness just the same as animals and humans do, then how can anyone possibly suggest that consuming one over the other is in some way more (or less) acceptable?

What is the differnce between a plant being ripped out of the ground while still alive, then being consumed by someone (in many cases while still alive) compared to an animal being subjected to the same process (although generally not being consumed whilst still alive), given that they are both conscious beings?

How is it any diffent?

As far as I'm concerned, people just need to stop projecting their emotional hangups onto others and attempting to guilt-trip them into adopting their own emotionally-fuelled beliefs.

I can honestly say that I don't feel the slightest bit of guilt about my personal eating habits or the choices I've made in that regard.

And I certainly won't allow someone else to dump their emotional baggage and hangups onto me in an effort to make me feel guilt or shame for doing something that is a completely normal, and natural thing to do.

The truth is, that in order for us to sustain ourselves we have to consume energy of some kind , one way or another.

Whether it's a plant or animal that is used as the source of that energy is simply a matter of personal choice.

If a person wants to delude (or guilt-trip) themselves into believing that it's "better" for a plant ot be killed and consumed than it is for an animal to have the same thing done to them, then I'm ok with that.

... but I certainly don't feel the need to go around tellng them that what they do is disgusting and how horrible it is that plants have to be killed in order for them to eat... because that wouid be ridiculous, wouldn't it!?

[Abhaya]

The rest of any argument for the eating of meat.... is just self affected emotional rationalization. It is a self lie. It's crap, pure and simple.

And you know it. That's the sad part. Each of you really do know this.

BTW, I'm not a vegetarian. But I have been, at times. And I will be again.

I don't see a plant as very different from an animal, both have Aura's; both have energy signatures both are a collection of single cells working together for a larger goal. Just because one's way of life is very foreign to ours does not mean it is any less "alive".

plants are not harvested "kosher" or natural, nor are they grown as such; the damage of agriculture on the earth is much greater than the meat industry.

either way we are consuming converted cosmic rays, to label or judge anyone as overly different from another (plant or meat eater) is emotional rationalization IMO, and the "tell" is the "emotion" evoking words used when discussing either side.

it seems so clear really, but then divide and conqure is not suppose to be noticed by those being divided and conqured.

Eating plants or animals is the same....? Sorry no. True pure consciousness exsists in plants just as it does in animals. However in plant life the consciousness is not as aware to physical pain and terror as a cow or pig is. In fact it's not even in the ball park. Similarly what is the effect on your own consciousness if the regular preparation of your own food stuff involved slitting an animals throat verses harvesting an ear of corn. Taste for meat is a poor justification for this choice. And as to the "logic" claiming that cows and pigs are too many in number therefor we have to eat them. That's bogus they are huge in number because we breed them by the billions so that we can keep up with the amount of murder in the slaughter houses. Further more if over population gives license for such slaughter, I suppose by that logic we could all save the world by eating all the k Mart welfare shoppers that are flooding the welfare system. I mean it would technically be no different then plucking a carrot from the earth right?

[GrnEggsNHam]

I didn't watch the OP's video but I did watch the following video about a year ago - http://www.meatvideo.com/ ***this video contains death images***

I'm sure it's mostly the same stuff anyways. What I find peculiar is how agitated everyone gets over videos like these when the same atrocities or worse happen to our species every day. I don't agree with these slaughter methods but I also am not in any position to regulate such things. I eat meat every day and am well aware that most was killed rather savagely. In the end I eat what tastes good to me. I have eaten tasty veggie dishes and I have eaten disgusting meat dishes. I consume both as that is what my palate desires. Whether you want to believe it or not our species is a predatory one. There are many other predatory species on this Earth and they alike eat what their palate desires.

If I could not purchase meat in a store I know I would be hunting for the same source of food and eating vegetables when I failed. In fact I would gladly do so instead of working for 40 hours/week in this society. However my desire for a mate over comes these urges and I adapt.

Not really sure why I even bothered posting this but I read interesting responses so figured I'd chime.

[RMorgan]

I didn't watch the OP's video but I did watch the following video about a year ago - http://www.meatvideo.com/ ***this video contains death images***

I'm sure it's mostly the same stuff anyways. What I find peculiar is how agitated everyone gets over videos like these when the same atrocities or worse happen to our species every day. I don't agree with these slaughter methods but I also am not in any position to regulate such things. I eat meat every day and am well aware that most was killed rather savagely. In the end I eat what tastes good to me. I have eaten tasty veggie dishes and I have eaten disgusting meat dishes. I consume both as that is what my palate desires. Whether you want to believe it or not our species is a predatory one. There are many other predatory species on this Earth and they alike eat what their palate desires.

If I could not purchase meat in a store I know I would be hunting for the same source of food and eating vegetables when I failed. In fact I would gladly do so instead of working for 40 hours/week in this society. However my desire for a mate over comes these urges and I adapt.

Not really sure why I even bothered posting this but I read interesting responses so figured I'd chime.

Hey mate,

Well, first, I´d like to make it clear that I´m not a vegetarianism evangelist, despite being a vegetarian. I´ve never started a thread on this subject.

However, I´d like to point some important facts, for the sake of good debate. Allow me to quote some of your statements:

"Whether you want to believe it or not our species is a predatory one"

Well, it isn´t true. We´re, in fact, the only species in the planet that can actually choose its diet. A natural predator can´t actually choose what to eat; it doesn´t have the proper intellectual and physical tools to do it. It can´t cook or farm.

Carnivore predators have short intestines, in order to digest meat faster, without intoxicating its organism with its toxins. Our intestines are about 15 times longer than a feline intestine, as an example.

Carnivore´s mandibles don´t move laterally. They just move vertically in order to bite its prey and swallow chunks of meat. Our mandible moves laterally, unlike carnivore predators.

Carnivores have predatory instincts. Put a young lion in a room with a rabbit and an apple; What he´s going to eat, the rabbit or the apple? Put a young human in a room with a rabbit and an apple; What´s he going to eat? The apple or the rabbit, with its skin, fur, blood and bones?

When you see a living cow, a dog, a cat or a pig, do you feel the desire to bite its throat, kill it and and eat it? Predators feel it, we don´t.

"In the end I eat what tastes good to me"

That´s ok. That´s probably, as far as I can figure out, the only reasonable reason you can find to eat meat. I can´t argue with that. People eat meat for pleasure, because it tastes good.

I can give you a hundred (http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/101.html) reasons not to eat meat:

PEOPLE

Every year in the UK we feed our livestock enough food to feed 250,000,000 people while in the world 30,000,000 people die of starvation
20 vegetarians can live off the land required by one meat eater
If Americans reduced their meat consumption by 10% it would free 12,000,000 tons of grain - enough to feed 60,000,000 people (the population of Great Britain)
If all Americans became vegetarian, it would free enough grain to feed 600,000,000 people (the population of India)
Intensification in animal farming has displaced 1,000,000's of people from their traditional lands - eg. indigenous people in south & central america, native americans in north america & crofters in Great Britain - this is continuing today
People displaced from their lands into cities succumb to dietary deficiency, diseases, parasites & opportunistic diseases
The UK imports £46,000,000 worth of grain from third world countries to feed our livestock
Due to overgrazing 850,000,000 people live on land threatened by desertification & over 230,000,000 already live on land so severely desertified that they are unable to sustain their existence & face imminent starvation
1,000,000,000 people in the west gorging on meat & dairy leave 1,000,000,000 to waste away & 3,500,000,000 teeter on the brink

LAND

If they continue to clear American forests to raise cattle at the present rate, in 50 years there will be none left
1 acre yields 165 lbs of beef or 20,000 lbs of potatoes
8/10 of cultivated land in the UK is used to grow food for animals (14,732,000 hectares)
It takes 16lbs of high protein soya to produce 1 lb of beef
Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows, 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming
Pressure on land due to meat farming leads to soil erosion 6billion tons/year in the USA
If everyone went vegetarian upto 90% of land used for animal farming could be taken out of production & used to replant woodlands, leisure activities etc.
25% of Central america's forests have been destroyed for cattle grazing since 1960
Between 1966-1983 38% of the Amazon rain forest was destroyed for cattle grazing
90% of cattle ranches established on cleared forest land go bankrupt in less than 8 years as the land becomes barren due to nutrient loss & overgrazing
Overgrazing by cattle is destroying the land & increasing desertification, nearly 430 million acres in the USA alone has suffered a 25-50% reduction in yield since first grazed
An inch of topsoil takes 200-1000 years to develop - yet in the USA they have lost around 1/3 of their prime topsoil in 200 years (around 7 inches) due to animal farming

AIR

The destruction of the rainforest by cattle farmers is destroying the lungs of the planet & reducing the worlds capacity to replenish our oxygen supply
The 1,300,000,000 cattle in the world emit 60,000,000 tons of methane per year (methane is a greenhouse gas & leads to global warming)
Burning of forests, grasslands & agricultural waste associated with animal farming releases 50-100,000,000 tons of methane per year
Combining these figures, 25% of methane emissions are due to animal farming (not including the billions of sheep, pigs & poultry so the real figure is much higher)
Fertilizer used to grow crops to feed to animals releases nitrous oxide - thought to account for 6% of the greenhouse effect
Fertilizer, weedkiller & pesticides sprayed on crops mostly used to feed livestock enter the atmosphere creating a noxious carcinogenic cocktail
CFCs are released into the air from refrigeration units used to store decomposing flesh (meat), milk & butter - CFCs are destroy the ozone layer
Ammonia from animal urine also pollutes the atmosphere
CO2 is released by burning oil & petrol in lorries, ships, abattoirs, dairies, factories etc. associated with meat & dairy production
Emissions from large chemical plants which produce fertilizer, weedkiller & other agricultural chemicals are also poisoning our air

WATER

25 gallons of water to produce 1lb of wheat & 2500 gallons to produce 1lb of meat
UK farm animals produce 200,000,000 tonnes of slurry (liquid excrement) every year, the majority of which ends up in our rivers
Bloody waste water from abattoirs ends up in our rivers
In the USA every second humans produce 12,000 lbs of effluent while farmed animals produce 250,000 lbs
Nitrates & pesticides used on crops grown to feed livestock end up in our rivers
Meat & dairy farming uses 70 litres of water per day per animal in the UK or 159,250,000,000 litres per year in total
The water used to produce 10 lbs of steak is equivalent to the average consumption of water for an entire household for an entire year
Depletion of groundwater reserves to grow crops for animals & to supply abattoirs will lead to greater water shortages
Aquafers (stores of underground water) in the San Joaquin valley in the USA are being drained at the rate of 500,000,000,000 gallons/year to produce meat
18% of all agricultural land in the world is irrigated & as global warming increases (partly due to animal farming) it will cost $200,000,000 to keep these systems going
The water used to produce a 1000 lb beef steer is enough to float a Destroyer battleship
The liquid waste from the various parts of the meat & dairy industry flow into the rivers & from there into the seas polluting them & encouraging huge algal blooms to grow

EFFICIENCY

To produce 1calorie of energy from meat takes 60 calories of petrol, whereas growing grains & legumes to directly feed people produces 20 calories for each calorie of fuel used ( thats 1200 times more efficient)
Meat & dairy farming uses billions of gallons of oil to run tractors, fuel ships & lorries (to move animal feed & animals), pump billions of gallons of water to irrigate fields & run slaughterhouses, power refrigeration units to prevent the corpses from decomposing & to power sewage plants to clean up some of the pollution produced
Cattle convert only 6% of their energy intake (mainly grains & soya) into flesh, the remaining 94% is wasted as heat, movement (which is why they keep many animals in very close confinement), hair, bones, faeces etc
1lb of beef takes 1 gallon of petrol to produce
A family of four eating beef for a year uses enough petrol to run a car for 6 months (obviously depending on how far you drive!)
If the full ecological cost of meat was passed onto the consumer - the price would be quadrupled (at least)
The EC spends œ100,000,000's to subsidise animal production resulting in lakes of unwanted milk & mountains of unwanted meat & butter. This money could be better spent encouraging organic fruit, vegetable & grain production
In the USA in 1979 145,000,000 tons of crops were fed to cattle resulting in only 21million tons of animal bodies - the cost of the wasted crops was $20,000,000,000
Between 1950 & 1985 grain production in Europe & the USA increased massively but 2/3 was fed to animals
70% of all grain is fed to animals
Eating vast quantities of animal flesh, eggs, milk & butter is a luxury that most of the planet can not afford

ANIMALS

Fishing with drift (and other modern) nets weakens & destroys ecosystems by indiscriminately killing billions of sea creatures & disrupting the sea bed
Fishermen's nets kill 10 times as many other animals as the fish they are hoping to catch
Fish caught in nets die an agonising slow death of suffocation
Each year 15,000,000,000 land animals are slaughtered for food & an unknown but much larger number of sea creatures (including 1000's of dolphins caught accidentally)
Chickens are crammed into battery cages with upto 3 other birds, they are unable to even spread their wings & many can not even stand up
Unwanted male chicks (because they can't lay eggs) are gassed or pulped while their sisters go to the battery sheds
Chicks are debeaked without anaesthetic to prevent them injuring each other in the unnaturally confined conditions they are kept in - this is equivalent to having your fingernails pulled out without anaesthetic
Modern farming methods using growth hormones & artificial lighting mean that many chickens out grow their bones, resulting in fractured & broken legs
Sows are kept tethered in stalls 1.3 x 1 metre on concrete or slatted floors - they can not even turn around
Poultry raised for meat are kept in windowless broiler sheds, with around 20-30,000 in each shed, they live in an area of 10-20 cm square - fighting due to overcrowding is common & like battery hens they commonly suffer from supperating bed sores
Broilersheds are artificially lit 23 hours a day to produce rapid growth
Animals travel between farms & to slaughter in overcrowded transporters with no food or water - resulting in stress, injuries & deaths - legal requirements are widely ignored
95% of poultry suffer injuries before being killed & 30% suffer broken bones
Problems with stunning practices mean that many animals have their throats slit while still conscious (around 6% of cattle or 200,000 per year) & are then dipped in tanks of scalding water (to loosen feathers, bristles etc.) again while fully conscious
4000 animals die spurting their blood out every minute in a British slaughterhouse
Calf leather comes from animals killed at just 2 weeks old
Cows were fed on the ground up remains of other cows & sheep - the result is thought to be BSE (mad cow disease) in the USA cattle are fed partly on recycled plastic pellets
Cows only give milk for 10 months after they have a calf - so they are routinely artificially inseminated (ie. mechanically raped) to keep them pregnant & milking - their calves are taken away (usually at 12 hours old) for meat or export to veal crates
Cows would naturally live upto 20 years but are slaughtered after 5-7 years when their milk production begins to fall
In the UK animals are killed by first being stunned with electricity or a captive bolt gun (ie. a bolt is fired into their heads) before having their throats slit & being plunged into boiling water - all this happens on a production line with the animals being hung upside down from a moving conveyor belt - this is factory farming
"Animals are those unfortunate slaves & victims of the most brutal part of mankind" - John Stewart Mill (philosopher)
Veal calves are confined in stalls in the dark, unable to move & are fed on pigs blood , chocolate & dried milk (we are drinking the rich fresh milk of their mothers)
Cows naturally produce 5 litres of milk per day for their calves - under the intensified systems of modern farming they produce 25-40 litres per day - resulting in swollen & inflamed udders - at this rate they are soon worn out
Large areas of land are under monoculture to grow crops to feed to animals - these areas are wildlife deserts supporting fewer & fewer species.

HEALTH

Vegetarians have a 20% lower rate of mortality from all causes (ie. they live longer & don't get sick as often)
Meat is full of traces of antibiotics, hormones, toxins produced by stress & pesticide residues that become concentrated from all the crops they have eaten
Fish contain heavy metals & other pollutants -many of which originated on farms
The world health organisation recommends a diet low in saturated fat, sugar, salt & with plenty of fibre - exactly what you get on a vegan/vegetarian diet
Farmed animals contain upto 50% saturated fat in their bodies
Vegetarians have 24% reduced risk of getting heart disease & Vegans a 57% reduction (heart disease is the biggest killer in the UK accounting for 50% of deaths)
Obesity is rare in vegetarians, obesity is related to many diseases
Vegans & vegetarians have lower blood pressure & cholesterol levels - high levels are associated with heart disease, strokes & kidney failure
Vegetarians have a 50% reduced risk of dying of diabetes
Vegetarians have a 40% reduced level of cancer than the general population thought to be because they have a higher intake of vitamins A,C & E
Vegetarians have a reduced risk of developing gall & kidney stones
80% of food poisoning is due to infected meat (faeces, bacteria etc.) after all meat is decomposing flesh - most of the rest is due to salmonella in eggs
Osteoporosis due to calcium loss from bones is mainly due to the sulphur content in meat & casein protein in milk that cause calcium to be lost in the urine - the countries with the highest meat & dairy consumption are those with the highest levels of brittle bones
50% of people do not have the enzyme to digest milk properly & milk allergy is related to asthma & eczema
Meat eaters have double the rate of Alzheimers disease as Vegans & Vegetarians - some people also think that Parkinsons disease is also linked to meat eating
Egg yolk is a dense concentration of saturated fat & the white is high in albumin protein associated with leaching calcium into your urine. Butter is 80% saturated fat, cream is 40% saturated fat & cheese is 25-40% saturated fat
Meat eaters are two and a half times more likely to get bowel cancer than Vegetarians
The cling film used to wrap meat in supermarkets & butchers contains chemicals linked to falling sperm counts in men
Chinese people (living mainly on a vegetarian diet) consume 20% more calories than Americans but Americans are 20% fatter
Of 2,100,000 deaths in the USA in 1987, 1,500,000 were related to diet (ie. meat & dairy)


Please, I´m not trying to create division here. I feel like it´s a good subject for a debate, so I´m contributing to it.

Cheers,

Raf.

[Abhaya]

I didn't watch the OP's video but I did watch the following video about a year ago - http://www.meatvideo.com/ ***this video contains death images***

I'm sure it's mostly the same stuff anyways. What I find peculiar is how agitated everyone gets over videos like these when the same atrocities or worse happen to our species every day. I don't agree with these slaughter methods but I also am not in any position to regulate such things. I eat meat every day and am well aware that most was killed rather savagely. In the end I eat what tastes good to me. I have eaten tasty veggie dishes and I have eaten disgusting meat dishes. I consume both as that is what my palate desires. Whether you want to believe it or not our species is a predatory one. There are many other predatory species on this Earth and they alike eat what their palate desires.

If I could not purchase meat in a store I know I would be hunting for the same source of food and eating vegetables when I failed. In fact I would gladly do so instead of working for 40 hours/week in this society. However my desire for a mate over comes these urges and I adapt.

Not really sure why I even bothered posting this but I read interesting responses so figured I'd chime.

So it's ok to eat meat from slaughter houses because you have a desire to taste it.... We have other carnal desires as well. Maybe we should set up factory sex slave shops so we can meet those carnal needs too. After all, we all desire sex. So this is surely justified. :/

And let's question for a moment eating of meat being a carnal in born cant live with out desire. First it should be noted that it is with out question proven, that man does not need meat to survive( it should be noted also that if that single fact does not inspire you to be vegetarian then in my opinion you have a problem). Second it is widely believed to be in fact a more healthy diet. I've yet to see the miracle cures of switching to the red meat diet...
Now we say we are born with the desire to eat meat. Are we born with it, or have we simply grown up in a culture where it is the norm? There are millions of people in India for example who grew up in a different culture. They weren't fed meat as the main course of food since before they could think. And as a result many do not have this "carnal desire" to eat meat. They were brought up in a different way of thinking about food. Where you see a delicious turkey dinner, they see a giant dead bird carcass. They don't spend there lives wishing," oh if only I weren't held back by India's vegetarian culture, then I could enjoy meat". No it in fact repulses them. There is a carnal desire to eat, this is a fact. What you eat however is a choice.

There was a time when we were cave men and eating meat was a natural lifestyle. This is another pathetic argument as the fact is we are not cave men. News flash... We are no longer cave men! We are the people of 2013 and it is no longer necessary to run around with spears hunting boars. Since that time we have evolved other ways of surviving. Maybe you have heard of gardening. There are some new agers here right. Well lets focus on the now. We don't need to eat meet period. We grow up in a culture where it is the norm or it is not the norm to eat meat. This decides the taste pallet we grow up with. Then later. Being that we can think (since we are not cave men any more) we can make a choice. So make your choice but don't think for a second you have a free pass to slaughter what ever you like because cave men used to do it. You can think, there for your free pass is void.

[Lettherebelight]

Yes, levels of consciousness between carrots and cows...a very good topic for debate! Gee, I don't know...is their a difference in the level of consciousness? I know, let's conduct an experiment to see if their is a difference in consciousness.... yah de yah de yah...

This thread is actually about the short film in the OP. If you haven't watched it, why post a comment?

Watch the vid, then say something.

[meat suit]

If maturnaty wards had glass walls, there would be no babies....

no matter how you put an animal to death in order to eat it, its bloody, its painful and surely not in the best interest of the animal..
however, we are designed as omnivores (length of gut) and therefore it is natural for us to eat meat.
I have to say that the video displays the really regretable and un neccessary side of things, I only eat organic... and sometimes I kill it myself...

[Maia Gabrial]

It hurt to watch this.... I've been a vegetarian for almost a year again. This just nails it for me. I'm glad, but I'm crying for all of these beings. They've chosen a difficult path of experience.

What kind of humans are these people in slaughter houses? Not human at all....This is horrific. How were videos taken of these? It's just their jobs? They looked like they enjoyed what they were doing. I'd never accept such a job. But I have to say that it's no wonder food tastes so awful these days. No wonder we're getting sicker eating it.... In the olden days, humanity was alot kinder to the animals....

Imagine humans being treated like these poor souls. In fact, I had a "dream" where women were cramped into cages just like the chickens. It was very offensive. They could have been a food sources, but I don't remember the rest of the dream.

I'm going to send this video to as many as I can....

[Maia Gabrial]

Some people keep talking about other extraterrestrials races coming down here to save us, but when I think about how demonic we are as a race, I don´t think we deserve to be saved at all.

Raf, I agree with you wholeheartedly.I'm even more happy to be a vegetarian after seeing this. But even if people want to still be flesheaters, then at least honor the animals for their sacrifice of life and body to nourish their bodies. I personally don't want to be associated with people like these in the video because they make us all look bad. They don't act human at all. Even if this was some type of manipulation of the sheeple, it really hurt to watch this....

[Abhaya]

Also using the argument that our gut or our jaw suggests that we evolved as meat eaters and there for should continue on the same path unquestionably is lacking. Since the days of caveman consciousness and cave man jaws, We developed intillect, and reason. The ability to think, to rationalize,to choose to eat in a way which is least violent. In my opinion the evolution of the intellect is far more important then jaw structure.. To use the intellect to decide that gut design is more important then conscious choice to be less violent is just backwards.

[Zelig]

I lasted 23 seconds watching that video. I'd been on a low-meat diet for several years and existed mainly on fruit, vegetables, nuts, etc but recently embarked on a zero-meat diet. I've known for some time that it was the right choice in terms of ethics but the trigger for me came when I encountered a rabbit in the woods that had been snared, but was still alive. My girlfriend and I returned with wire cutters to try to free it but it kept darting deeper into the bush with the wire still around its neck. I realized that we'd never be able to catch it and had to leave it to suffer its fate. There was blood coming from its eyes as we left and I still feel ill thinking about it.

[Maia Gabrial]

It's not the fact that we eat everything in sight. It's our ATTITUDE towards those lives. Eat your good steak, SilentFeathers; but honor that animal for giving up its life for your nourishment. It will probably taste better, too. Just as Fred said, I don't need to have anyone tell me what to eat. But I do know that I don't want my food to endure such horrendous treatment. If they're going to be our food source, then allow them to live life. And make their ends compassionate. Is there anything wrong with honoring our little buddies?

Now GMO is just another inhumane treatment of other lifeforms. Natural fruit and vegetables have seeds. Not anymore. Monsanto has ensured that they don't by tampering with the genetics of plants. Why can't Nature be left untainted by humanity? If this is really a human thing.... It could be the influence of the reptilians on humanity. Just don't know.... It can't be all us....

[Maia Gabrial]

Humanity in its known history does not live as a part of nature, we ARE intruders, we shape the land to our needs (do you live in a house or built structure of any type?) we will have to accept this and do as best we can to balance it.

if you’re a vegan, great, but know that you are ruining nature to eat your plants (unless you forage in the woods for food, do you?) the hypocrisy and misunderstanding / misrepresentation in this thread is quite interesting.

we don't need to protect anything from us (unless you are an animal RIGHTS activists (like PETA & the terrorist group A.L.F.), animals do not have RIGHTS, we should care for their welfare, but NOT assign them rights as if they were our equals), we just need to manage whatever we use for abundant availability; this can be easily done & is quite successfully done in Alaska with moose and caribou at the expense of predator population (which isn't in danger, it is just controlled and limited as WE are the predator we are mostly concerned with).

The problem is that animals DO have rights from a higher power. Not many people care. We share this planet with many lifeforms. The problem is that humanity doesn't live in harmony with anything on this world. We don't take into consideration anything we do, eat, or build. For example, if we get tired of a tree that has existed in its location alot longer than we've lived, we tear it down. Not transplant it. Sadly, I've seen it done too many times. Trees are life for us. We should care. We are very careless with regards to other lifeforms. We don't act like a superior race. Our attitudes lack honor when we don't even thank those we eat....
That's my whole point. Eat your flesh, but honor their sacrifices. I'm sure they sense that this is their purpose, but do they have to endure a hellish life to fulfill it?

[Maia Gabrial]

Does anyone realize that all the torture of these animals reduces your frequencies? That may be the whole point....

[modwiz]

Does anyone realize that all the torture of these animals reduces your frequencies? That may be the whole point....

An obvious point, IMO. Plenty of proof in posts here. The whole big picture and not singling out torture. It is what it is. There is little point in discussion. What are words compared to the what is actually occurring in these places? I do believe the discussion does more harm than good. We need to find the common ground and not the places we do not agree. There are causes and effects. The current dietary habits are more effects than causes. 'More' is an important word in that last sentence and needs to be understood in context.

[Maia Gabrial]

WHAT? Kill it? Hellno I couldn't kill it. Took it to the sale, and got top dollar for it, so that it could go make a decent meal for someone else. But I couldn't even begin to eat it. I get all mine from store, and don't know it personally. cccc.

We are meat eaters folks. They are not supposed to be our friends and pets. They were put here for us to eat. Period. Get over it, we have far more important things to worry about. Like which ET's are friendly, and which ones are using us for "their" food supply. ccc.

What an incredible story, sirdipswitch! You couldn't kill your pet; but in the end, you subjected it to one of those slaughterhouses! Ironic. So, who said they were only to eat? Maybe that's the biggest illusion of all....

So, when it's your time to get slaughtered to feed the reptilians will you be ready?

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Not to speak for sirdipswitch, but he could be referring to the Bible:
Genesis 9:2-3
And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

I've always thought that was a reptilian agenda. Notice they tell you not to eat reptiles and bugs?

[Abhaya]

I should apologize as when it comes to this subject I always tend to come out guns a blazing. I simply can't help it. And while it may seem that I direct this at I dividuals it's really the overall theme that I am battling against. I find the way these debates always seem to go is, at first very heated. A lot of back and forth but soon the meat eaters side seems to slip out the back door. When the discussion begins to get a bit deeper the logic of the meaties just can't hold a finger to the facts about vegetarians. I mean I have never seen any valid refute to the kinds of facts brought up by RMorgan. Beef farms waste 99% of food energy (from gas and grain) and leave us with 1% left over food. That is a staggering and rediculous stat.

People who have thought about this truly all the way through will be vegetarian. I feel there are few exeptions. This is why there is rarely much competition from the meat eaters side of this debate. They have only thought it through to a point where they can rationalize enough in their own head to justify their meat eating.(or they haven't thought about it at all) They don't have an arguement to go all the way when they are really faced with the facts about food.

Any way I am going to back off now as I have only vented emotion on this thread. As this thread makes me very passionate. Thank you to RMorgan for that cool and collected break down of facts about vegetarianism. I fail to see how any one can make an argument against that :)

[blufire]

I should apologize as when it comes to this subject I always tend to come out guns a blazing. I simply can't help it. And while it may seem that I direct this at I dividuals it's really the overall theme that I am battling against. I find the way these debates always seem to go is, at first very heated. A lot of back and forth but soon the meat eaters side seems to slip out the back door. When the discussion begins to get a bit deeper the logic of the meaties just can't hold a finger to the facts about vegetarians. I mean I have never seen any valid refute to the kinds of facts brought up by RMorgan. Beef farms waste 99% of food energy (from gas and grain) and leave us with 1% left over food. That is a staggering and rediculous stat.

People who have thought about this truly all the way through will be vegetarian. I feel there are few exeptions. This is why there is rarely much competition from the meat eaters side of this debate. They have only thought it through to a point where they can rationalize enough in their own head to justify their meat eating. They don't have an arguement to go all the way when they are really faced with the facts about food.

Any way I am going to back off now as I have only vented emotion on this thread. As this thread makes me very passionate. Thank you to RMorgan for that cool and collected break down of facts about vegetarianism. I fail to see how any one can make an argument against that :)


In the past my friend, I have gone toe to toe with the “V’s” and not once did the points (solid and valid) get addressed. There were at one time several other omnivores that held their own . . . .

After this topic being brought up over and over and ALWAYS by the ‘Vs’ one gets very tired and fed up with being called evil, low vibrating, dismally spiritual and overall reptilian bull poop. We are considered less and lower than those who are vegetarian or vegan. We are disrespected and hated. And by those who are supposedly spiritually superior and enlightened.

It is very difficult and maddening to try to defend against irrational emotionalism and ranting.

Not once have I ever seen a logical discussion on how to pragmatically enable the global population to become vegetarian. It is only ranting on how much meat is consumed and that POOF all meat consumption should just somehow magically end. Not once have I seen a logical plan for the people who live in parts of the planet (desert, cold regions) are to grow enough (if any) vegetables and grains to feed themselves. Maybe someday way in the future we can do this, when that technology is available, but certainly not now.

Humans are omnivores, not herbivores and not carnivores and somehow this absolute human fact escapes the ‘V’s” Some humans lean more toward meat, some lean more toward vegetables and grains. But you know I have yet to see a video or rant from the people who lean more toward meat that completely tear apart and disrespect their fellow humans who lean toward vegetables and grains.

So remain on your high horse . . . . I hope it serves your heart and soul well.

[Abhaya]

Emotional this is. But the only arguement you bring up that I can see is that we are supposed to be omnivores. To that I would argue that yes in our evolutionary past we were designed as omnivores. This can be seen in our jaw structure or what ever. We also had an infinitely more important and current evelotionary leap. That separates us from this omnivorous caveman. That my friend is logic and reason. We are now able to think about what we eat. If the evolutionary structure of our jaw lends so much weight, then what about the evoltionary trait that defines us as a species here today? The one that allows us to choose to be peaceful as possible, or not. And it is a fact that we don't need to kill animals like cows to survive. How do you deal with the fact that you do not need to eat meat to live. But you choose to support it any way.

And it's true we as a culture have gone so far down this evil road of factory farming that there is no over night fix. But to suggest we are just stuck in this way of life is a nother cop out. And there is an easy way to start, that's with you stopping your own consumption.

So I have addressed your arguments. Feel free to argue back. But better yet try to refute one single arguement on rmorgans post on the previous page....

And I do take a high horse on his issue. And as we veggies are still far out numbered I think we have too.

[161803398]

Does anyone realize that all the torture of these animals reduces your frequencies? That may be the whole point....

That is really the whole point...along with the torture of people and whatever other way the ptb find to bring down society. For them, I think, the pain and blood is the whole point....also implicating us in their design by getting us to eat it (which, i am sure they find amusing).

[panopticon]

The little red meat I eat is not grain fed. It is grass fed. I know the farmer.

The "grain fed" protein for animal consumption in Western countries is usually agricultural residue, often from oil pressings. The oil goes to a variety of purposes.

The video simplifies a complex discussion (the one around agriculture which is much broader and multifaceted than portrayed) to make an emotive point.

Again I've got no problem with that, just don't accuse me of not having thought it through thanks very much.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Abhaya]

And I don't think all meat eaters are evil by any stretch. The entire western culture paints it as the norm from the moment your born. So how can I blame people when they are brought up in such an environment. However as for one who has truly looked at the facts and really thought about it. If they don't become vegetarian then I would say this is a case of, at best, some very frightening apathy. I think how ever that most meat eaters, even on this site simply have not thought it all the way through. Only enough to quietly justify it in their minds.

We don't have to shoot a pig in the face with a bolt gun to live. Simple fact. So lets not. What kind of species do we want to be?

[Abhaya]

, just don't accuse me of not having thought it through thanks very much.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon[/QUOTE]

This is what I would hope is not true. Because the cows you endorse killing for the satisfaction of your taste buds eats grass, it's therefor ok?...

[panopticon]

This is what I would hope is not true. Because the cows you endorse killing for the satisfaction of your taste buds eats grass, it's therefor ok?...

Yes. That is what I said.

[Abhaya]

Ok we'll I won't even argue that. Just bump it. This is what I'm taking about. It is not right :(

[161803398]

Taste is actually a bogus issue because taste's change depending on what you eat. I find meat revolting now having not eaten it in some time. I think the real issue for many people is availability of good vegan food and recipes as well as habits. What I don't understand is people who come out on the defensive about slaughterhouses. I think the natural reaction to torture and cruelty should be "that's wrong...what can we do to fix it" instead of feeling defensive.

I have to admit, I won't get over that story about the pet cow. I once talked to a lady farmer with a cow and I will never forget she said to me "shhhh...don't tell him he is going to the slaughterhouse tomorrow". Helplessness and rationalization is all I can think.

[Lettherebelight]

Complexity? Looks like a pretty straight forward issue to me.

If one has thought it through, and still feels comfortable with the decision to eat animals, then carry on.

Do what thou wilt.

For me, I'se opting out, thanks.

[TargeT]

The problem is that animals DO have rights from a higher power. Not many people care. We share this planet with many lifeforms. The problem is that humanity doesn't live in harmony with anything on this world. We don't take into consideration anything we do, eat, or build. For example, if we get tired of a tree that has existed in its location alot longer than we've lived, we tear it down. Not transplant it. Sadly, I've seen it done too many times. Trees are life for us. We should care. We are very careless with regards to other lifeforms. We don't act like a superior race. Our attitudes lack honor when we don't even thank those we eat....
That's my whole point. Eat your flesh, but honor their sacrifices. I'm sure they sense that this is their purpose, but do they have to endure a hellish life to fulfill it?

No they don't, "rights" are a human made conception that we have assigned to ourselves (which I support) if animals have any "rights" then they are about 95% criminal and violate eachothers rights in much worse ways than we do, I have never started eating an animal while it was still alive (though I often do this to veggies :-/) I have never forced someone "from the herd" causing them to be picked off by predators, or killed another of my species so I could mate with a choice female.



However in plant life the consciousness is not as aware to physical pain and terror as a cow or pig is. In fact it's not even in the ball park. Similarly what is the effect on your own consciousness if the regular preparation of your own food stuff involved slitting an animals throat verses harvesting an ear of corn. Taste for meat is a poor justification for this choice. And as to the "logic" claiming that cows and pigs are too many in number therefor we have to eat them. That's bogus they are huge in number because we breed them by the billions so that we can keep up with the amount of murder in the slaughter houses. Further more if over population gives license for such slaughter, I suppose by that logic we could all save the world by eating all the k Mart welfare shoppers that are flooding the welfare system. I mean it would technically be no different then plucking a carrot from the earth right?

How could you POSSIBLY know that plants do not feel physical pain? they react to wounds very similar to animals; in fact a very useful technique I use while growing plants is called "suppercropping" you damage area's of a plant and it floods the area with "repair" hormones (same as humans) and builds up scar tissue (same as humans) causing that area of the plant to be stronger (same as humans).

I think if anything you are further from the truth in your summation and a bit callous in your assumption that you "know" something.

ever "harvest" (RIP, TEAR, Mutilate) an ear of corn off corn plant, what is that sound you hear, is that a pleasant sound to you? does that squeaking tearing/ripping sound seem like a good thing to you, what do you imagine ripping your ear off would sound like?

Human's are so arrogant, if we do not understand something we assume we can brush it off as non-consequential or apply any meaning that makes us feel good to it.

I disagree with this completely.

I have never seen any valid refute to the kinds of facts brought up by RMorgan. Beef farms waste 99% of food energy (from gas and grain) and leave us with 1% left over food. That is a staggering and rediculous stat.

QUOTE]

You haven't seen them refuted because they are a gross exaggeration that isn't even worth working on & show a serious lack of understanding of modern (and I'm not saying I support them at all, I'm really am just playing Devils Advocate really) beef raising facilities (which are ULTRA DENSE populations of cattle, they can barely move and mostly eat WASTE corn products, stalks etc..) so you see, you will not find someone refuting a claim like "the moon is blue!" because it's not, and anyone who has looked at it can easily tell it's not.






Just to swing the pendulum on this ridiculous argument a bit further, have you ever considered this:

[QUOTE] injections of epinephrine into subjects following a training period resulted in greater long-term retention of task related memories.[9][16] This study also provided evidence that the level of epinephrine injected was related to the level of retention suggesting that the level of stress or emotionality of the memory plays a role on the level of retention. It is suggested that epinephrine affects memory consolidation by activating the amygdala and studies have shown that antagonism of beta-andrenoreceptors prior to injection of epinephrine will block the retention of memory effects seen previously.[17][18] This is supported by the fact that beta-adrenoreceptor agonists have the opposite effect on the enhancement of memory consolidation.[17][18] The BLA is thought to be actively involved in memory consolidation and is influenced strongly by stress hormones resulting in increased activation and as such increased memory retention.[15] The BLA then projects to the hippocampus resulting in a strengthened memory.[2] This relationship was studied by Packard and Chen who found that when glutamate was administered to the hippocampus, enhanced consolidation was seen during food-rewarded maze tasks.[19] The opposite effect was also seen when the amygdala was inactivated using lidocane.[19] Studies appear to suggest that the amygdala effects the consolidation of memories through its influence with stress hormones and the projections to other brain areas implicated in memory consolidation.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_consolidation

Animals dyeing in fear (supposedly) have a large amount of adrenaline ( epinephrine) in their systems right? well according to ALL studies on epinephrine it induces better memory retention, so maybe we are actually greatly benefiting from animals dyeing in fear??

(I see this claim about as valid as most the claims in this thread, EXCEPT mine is actually backed up by tangible fact and studies)




Just wanted to kick the can down the road a bit so we can ALL get this argument out of our system and let threads like this die for a while (again) enjoy!

[161803398]

This might be the most important thread on the forum...maybe no one realizes that.

[norman]

If they had glass walls, they wouldn't let the back penners crush the waiting animals up so close to their pending horror.

Every now and then an animal freaks right out and bolts HARD for freedom. ( there IS an intelligent being in each one )

All that happens is that they are brought back to a cooling off pen until they can sneakily be tricked.

An animal that has freaked out cannot be put through the slaughter line until it's had a good chance to get it's adrenalin levels back down to snoozy-into-slaughter mode again.

If you are unlucky enough to purchase meat ( and eat it ) that was killed while the entity powering it was triggering maximum "fight", you won't like it much, and it's quite likely to be so full of "fight" hormones that you, too, will feel freaked out after you eat it.

[161803398]

I remember several years ago buying some meat from the local butcher and it tasted like grass...hmmmm.....I realized I was eating recycled grass.....broccoli is nicer.

[161803398]

and finally...those who think that animals have no more real feelings than a carrot should remember that probably the powers that be think exactly the same way, except they include YOU in that equation as well. Our blood is red, same as the animals.

[norman]

and finally...those who think that animals have no more real feelings than a carrot should remember that probably the powers that be think exactly the same way, except they include YOU in that equation as well. Our blood is red, same as the animals.

I also happen to be fond of plants, and I KNOW they freak out too.

[TargeT]

and finally...those who think that animals have no more real feelings than a carrot should remember that probably the powers that be think exactly the same way, except they include YOU in that equation as well. Our blood is red, same as the animals.


and the same for those who think carrots have no feelings at all because they choose not to try and understand the topic. If a plant has an aura, if it responds to damage like animals, if it has a life span, how different is it really...

what is your "knowledge" blocking you from learning?

OH wait, does this offend your choice (that you have convinced your self is non-violent) of killing, err, harvesting immobile life forms (the epitome of innocence & vulnerability) for your consumption? how is YOUR cosmic ray converter ok to be eating and others not?


I see the defenders of veganism DEEPLY ENTRENCHED in duality (and highly polarized).

with every comment it becomes clearer.

[Abhaya]

The problem is that animals DO have rights from a higher power. Not many people care. We share this planet with many lifeforms. The problem is that humanity doesn't live in harmony with anything on this world. We don't take into consideration anything we do, eat, or build. For example, if we get tired of a tree that has existed in its location alot longer than we've lived, we tear it down. Not transplant it. Sadly, I've seen it done too many times. Trees are life for us. We should care. We are very careless with regards to other lifeforms. We don't act like a superior race. Our attitudes lack honor when we don't even thank those we eat....
That's my whole point. Eat your flesh, but honor their sacrifices. I'm sure they sense that this is their purpose, but do they have to endure a hellish life to fulfill it?

No they don't, "rights" are a human made conception that we have assigned to ourselves (which I support) if animals have any "rights" then they are about 95% criminal and violate eachothers rights in much worse ways than we do, I have never started eating an animal while it was still alive (though I often do this to veggies :-/) I have never forced someone "from the herd" causing them to be picked off by predators, or killed another of my species so I could mate with a choice female.



However in plant life the consciousness is not as aware to physical pain and terror as a cow or pig is. In fact it's not even in the ball park. Similarly what is the effect on your own consciousness if the regular preparation of your own food stuff involved slitting an animals throat verses harvesting an ear of corn. Taste for meat is a poor justification for this choice. And as to the "logic" claiming that cows and pigs are too many in number therefor we have to eat them. That's bogus they are huge in number because we breed them by the billions so that we can keep up with the amount of murder in the slaughter houses. Further more if over population gives license for such slaughter, I suppose by that logic we could all save the world by eating all the k Mart welfare shoppers that are flooding the welfare system. I mean it would technically be no different then plucking a carrot from the earth right?

How could you POSSIBLY know that plants do not feel physical pain? they react to wounds very similar to animals; in fact a very useful technique I use while growing plants is called "suppercropping" you damage area's of a plant and it floods the area with "repair" hormones (same as humans) and builds up scar tissue (same as humans) causing that area of the plant to be stronger (same as humans).

I think if anything you are further from the truth in your summation and a bit callous in your assumption that you "know" something.

ever "harvest" (RIP, TEAR, Mutilate) an ear of corn off corn plant, what is that sound you hear, is that a pleasant sound to you? does that squeaking tearing/ripping sound seem like a good thing to you, what do you imagine ripping your ear off would sound like?

Human's are so arrogant, if we do not understand something we assume we can brush it off as non-consequential or apply any meaning that makes us feel good to it.

I disagree with this completely.

I have never seen any valid refute to the kinds of facts brought up by RMorgan. Beef farms waste 99% of food energy (from gas and grain) and leave us with 1% left over food. That is a staggering and rediculous stat.

QUOTE]

You haven't seen them refuted because they are a gross exaggeration that isn't even worth working on & show a serious lack of understanding of modern (and I'm not saying I support them at all, I'm really am just playing Devils Advocate really) beef raising facilities (which are ULTRA DENSE populations of cattle, they can barely move and mostly eat WASTE corn products, stalks etc..) so you see, you will not find someone refuting a claim like "the moon is blue!" because it's not, and anyone who has looked at it can easily tell it's not.






Just to swing the pendulum on this ridiculous argument a bit further, have you ever considered this:

[QUOTE] injections of epinephrine into subjects following a training period resulted in greater long-term retention of task related memories.[9][16] This study also provided evidence that the level of epinephrine injected was related to the level of retention suggesting that the level of stress or emotionality of the memory plays a role on the level of retention. It is suggested that epinephrine affects memory consolidation by activating the amygdala and studies have shown that antagonism of beta-andrenoreceptors prior to injection of epinephrine will block the retention of memory effects seen previously.[17][18] This is supported by the fact that beta-adrenoreceptor agonists have the opposite effect on the enhancement of memory consolidation.[17][18] The BLA is thought to be actively involved in memory consolidation and is influenced strongly by stress hormones resulting in increased activation and as such increased memory retention.[15] The BLA then projects to the hippocampus resulting in a strengthened memory.[2] This relationship was studied by Packard and Chen who found that when glutamate was administered to the hippocampus, enhanced consolidation was seen during food-rewarded maze tasks.[19] The opposite effect was also seen when the amygdala was inactivated using lidocane.[19] Studies appear to suggest that the amygdala effects the consolidation of memories through its influence with stress hormones and the projections to other brain areas implicated in memory consolidation.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_consolidation

Animals dyeing in fear (supposedly) have a large amount of adrenaline ( epinephrine) in their systems right? well according to ALL studies on epinephrine it induces better memory retention, so maybe we are actually greatly benefiting from animals dyeing in fear??

(I see this claim about as valid as most the claims in this thread, EXCEPT mine is actually backed up by tangible fact and studies)




Just wanted to kick the can down the road a bit so we can ALL get this argument out of our system and let threads like this die for a while (again) enjoy!


Again i never said plants don't feel pain. I clearly stated in multiple posts that they have infact, pure conscious life just as an animal or us for that matter. But if you would argue that a plant is "more" conscience of pain then a cow or a pig then that is the most rediculous stretch yet posted on this thread. I mean a 5 year old knows this. My idea is we should take the path of least violence. It's simple really. Cause less pain. Show me a picture of a terrified screaming carrot and then we can talk :p

[Lettherebelight]

'The path of least violence'...sounds like a good plan to me!?

[panopticon]

Ok we'll I won't even argue that. Just bump it. This is what I'm taking about. It is not right :(

Thanks Abhaya.
BTW I didn't say cows.
We don't eat that much meat and when we do we eat mostly roo, wallaby, chook and fish, though there is the occasional bit of cow and venison.

In our gardens we use Blood & Bone as a soil supplement.
Guess what that's made from...

[norman]

People who have thought about this truly all the way through will be vegetarian.




Nope, that's not IT.

Try Breatharianism.


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34696-Breatharianism-and-living-on-Prana-a-how-to-guide

[161803398]

I see the defenders of veganism DEEPLY ENTRENCHED in duality (and highly polarized)

I guess I see people who can't just come out and admit that slaughterhouses are wrong and who would rather make arguments about carrots in order to avoid admitting that instead of trying to be helpful the same way.

Even my meat eating friends can at least say slaughterhouses are wrong.

[TargeT]

Show me a picture of a terrified screaming carrot and then we can talk :p

obviously you don't understand the idea I am trying to convey.

maybe I can restate:

Just because something doesn't communicate in the same way that we do; does this make it "less alive" consciousness in this context is just awareness, there are clearly varying levels of awareness even in humans, does this mean that it is "better" to kill a less aware human over a more aware (AKA "awake") human.

do you not see the flaw in your argument?

you've stated they do feel pain, and are pure conscious life, and yet you then say they are "less conscious" of pain via a lack of an expression you understand.. to me they express pain the same way minus 1 thing (and it’s really a matter of degree, as movement does occur): rapid movement.

so this ONE THING allows you to feel ok about "killing" one life form over another?

and at the same time I bet you think that there is "something after death" too right? so death is really meaningless..

the cognitive dissonance here will cause you much confusion in life, especially if it is present in (apparently) strongly held "beliefs" you have which seem to strongly contradict (dissonance) eachother.

but again, without difference there is no reality, so you seem to be a very pure expression of reality even inside your own mind.



All I'm really trying to say is this: when you find your self strongly in opposition of some topic, you need to DEEPLY analyze that "feeling" as "feelings" on a topic not fully understood are a symptom of something that needs delt with, and while they are the spice of life (the ballanced life is much more "boring" really) they are not neccisarily the path to truth (which is a whole other topic in itself).

At least in my limited experience this is what I have found.




I see the defenders of veganism DEEPLY ENTRENCHED in duality (and highly polarized)

I guess I see people who can't just come out and admit that slaughterhouses are wrong and who would rather make arguments about carrots in order to avoid admitting that instead of trying to be helpful the same way.

Slaughter houses are ABSOLUTELY wrong. when have I said other wise?

you are projecting on me.. I am simply holding up a side of this discussion that is lacking, I see it as an intelectual exersize, nothing else.

you see, I do not have a "dog" in this fight other than going through the mental exersize paces.

[meat suit]

Abhaya,
you are fighting your argument with passion and logic, I can relate to that, however not so much on this topic... I have said how I feel on page 2,
but I would like to hear from you how you would change things, if you could..
would in your ideal world cows and pigs die out coz nobody needs them? or would you put a few examples into a reservation with some wolves.. so that they can do their grazing and be part of a natural eco system?
I am asking because I have argued long drunken nights with vegans who were passionate about deleting entire species from the face of the earth, as that would mean they no longer had to suffer from human treatment.
do you think a carrot is feeling ok about being ripped from the ground before it can flower and have baby carrots, just because you want to eat it?
I am about to plant 400 willow cuttings, the deal (there is always a deal) is that they can grow on my land and I can cut them off every year to burn in my wood burner... how do you feel about that?
just wondering...

cheers

meatsuit (it's that thing i am in while i am here..)

[panopticon]

Just as a question how many of the vegetarians here use bio-fuels to run their vehicles or hop on buses that use bio-diesel?
How about the use of tallow as a bio-fuel (http://assets.nationalrenderers.org/Rendered_Fats_for_Biodiesel.pdf)...

Do you buy from a shop? Do the trucks used to freight the produce use biodiesel?
Yeah, I haven't thought this through at all.

-- Pan

[161803398]

you are projecting on me.. hehe, no. I just didn't have time to read all your posts.


you see, I do not have a "dog" in this fight other than going through the mental exersize paces.

maybe you are projecting on others.

[norman]

Even my meat eating friends can at least say slaughterhouses are wrong.



I admit slaughter houses are wrong.

I admit intensive greenhouse fruit and veg production is wrong.

I admit consumption is wrong.

I wish I lived in a pure state of grace.

I'm working on it. :)

[Abhaya]

So because we cannot really know that a plant feels less pain then a cow for instance. (Even though again a 5 year old intuitively feels this) then ur saying that gives us license to kill cows. The only point u seem to be raising actually is that we cannot really know something. But we can do our best to act correctly. And maybe the intuitive feeling that is inherent in a 5 year old that would cringe at seeing a scared tortured cow, and have a much more difficult time detecting pain in a carrot is a pretty good way to know. I maintain that you are making a rediculous stretch in logic to justify ur eating meat.

If you really felt some compassion for plants as you claim you would never kill a cow.

[norman]

If you really felt some compassion for plants as you claim you would never kill a cow.



Yea, that's kinda true.

Works for both sides of this apparent 'argument'.

I think we have to face an ugly truth here, for all of us.

We're not perfect.

[TargeT]

So because we cannot really know that a plant feels less pain then a cow for instance. (Even though again a 5 year old intuitively feels this) then ur saying that gives us license to kill cows. The only point u seem to be raising actually is that we cannot really know something. But we can do our best to act correctly. And maybe the intuitive feeling that is inherent in a 5 year old that would cringe at seeing a scared tortured cow, and have a much more difficult time detecting pain in a carrot is a pretty good way to know. I maintain that you are making a rediculous stretch in logic to justify ur eating meat.

If you really felt some compassion for plants as you claim you would never kill a cow.

Compassion, no, Empathy, yes.

I literally live with a 5 year old, I will ask her when I get home, I'll also ask her if the planet cares when we spill chemicals on the ground.. I'm sure she will answer the same to both, and yet I don't agree that that makes both true ;)

intuition has nothing to do with life forms so different from us that most people only consider them "alive" when you start to break down the definition of the word.




BTW: I have never used any thing I've said here to "justify" anything or "give license to" in fact I've never even stated that I "eat cow" (though I do.. so now I just did :P) you are projecting a preconceived notion of "meat eater Neanderthal" on me.

[Abhaya]

Even if there were literally no solution to the mess we have created with slaughter houses. There will never be a justification for your eating of the meat. If nazi's were destined to kill all the Jews should you jump on board?

That being said I believe there are solutions maybe tomorrow I can throw some ideas out there. I bet others can too. Going to have to call it a night.

I mean no offense to any one here and in not even really looking at the names I am replying too. Just fighting this part of society.

[Borden]

Babies have more or less exactly the same limbic brain as the mammals that these soul-dead zombies think it's okay to slaughter in their billions to satisfy their pointless, ugly, zombie existences. How do you feel about that? Do you think it's a case of 'everyone's entitled to their opinion?'

Burn them with your words. Do not allow these hellish morons to have their 'opinion'. It is not a valid opinion. Their hearts are dead. They are deathly ballast and they have no compassion in their tiny, black, pitted 'souls'. Don't be intimidated! Be a true human being and take a stand. If you are polite to murderous, stupid scum they will politely consume your world and your life as they consume everything else in their hellish stupidity.

They do NOT deserve your respect

[norman]

There is a hell of a LOT of talk on these kinds of forums about the Psychopaths who rule this world.


I contend, for the sake of keeping this conversation well above gutter nugget slinging, that the most psychopathic aspect of all life, as we know it, is the act of eating.

We, ALL of US, eat what lives.

Rocks and basic organic mass are not considered food.

In order for us to sustain ourselves, we HAVE to indulge in what might be simple, biologically, but is something incredibly psychopathic on a cerebral level.

Just look at the current conversation for evidence of how deeply skrewed we are over this stuff of what we eat.


On the one hand, we have an empathetic nature that resides within.

On the other hand, we have a need for sustenance by eating living matter.

That's a hell of a paradox, and the outcome is that we are all psychopathic, really.

[161803398]

That's a hell of a paradox, and the outcome is that we are all psychopathic, really.

While I think that might the goal; its not true. I will try to explain to you that we are not only talking about the suffering of animals. If you find that sometimes your conversations with vegans get emotional; I suggest it is because of factors you might not be aware of. Animal cruelty affects different people in different ways. For some people, the effect is so intense as to be damaging to them physically; the pain is so intense. So for some vegans; it might seem to you almost that they are fighting for their lives. And they are. I think some compassion for the vegans would be appropriate because many of them are on the front lines fighting for a more compassionate society.

[161803398]

On the other hand, some vegans do not understand the broader importance of their goals...such as the ones that say they'd like to kill people to reduce the suffering of animals. They do not understand the damage they do by saying such things which, I believe, is caused by the pain they feel. It is not actually malicious. To some, animals are children the same as any other child and there is nothing anyone can say that will change that instinct. These are highly protective, empathetic people and it is important to remember that.

It might be similar to a feeling like you want to kill the guy who raped your daughter except there is no end to it because there is never a resolution. It never stops.

However, I always suggest that people do not separate the issues of cruelty to animals and cruelty to humans. The goal is a compassionate society.

[bram]

I am amazed that the defence of meat eating has now come down to:

"Yeah well, eating plants is just as bad." Does that constitute a defence for eating meat? The meat supporters need to look inside themselves, if they do they will see that they are going through incredible mental gymnastics to defend their position.

My mum used to tell me that ''two wrongs don't make a right."

And, BTW, compassion and empathy are not emotional states.

Love, bram

PS- I know there are some who are distressed to see threads like this that divide opinion, but I think we all benefit from listening to the opinions of others. peace.

[panopticon]

At no stage have I said anything about plants, other than animals (including humans) eat them.
Yet again I have been called names by so-called "spiritual" people.
Should be used to it by now.
I happened to have agreed with much that RMorgan quoted.

Shan't bother you all up there on your soap boxes again (i'm getting a crink in my neck), however I do wish you all the best and hope that one day you will take the time to look into the natural cycles of this wonderful world that we, as humans, are only a small (though rather destructive) part of.
-- Pan

[CD7]

My mum used to tell me that ''two wrongs don't make a right."



And my mum used to tell me if u dont eat ur meat u cant have any pudding!

[TargeT]

EAting meat doesn't need defense, the poor logic of fanatic veganism does need highlighting.

Don't confuse that with a defensive stance.

I don't know if its distressing to see a difference of opinion; I think more so that it is distressing to see a lack of understanding/empathy by some & the "hard line" approach that sometimes crosses into human on human violent thoughts/actions.




My mum used to tell me that ''two wrongs don't make a right."



And my mum used to tell me if u dont eat ur meat u cant have any pudding!

I said that to my daughter not 5 min ago! (Except it was apple sauce, haha)

[778 neighbour of some guy]

Intrueging discussion people, i heard pros and cons, from it just tastes good, to bad **** will happen to bad people (lowering of vibrations and crapping on your own karmic skank account) to we are omnivores to herbivores to my teeth say i can eat whatever i need ( less complicated omnivoreversion), what we are talking about is basiccaly the factor of nutritional value isnt it?? And the basic need for a preferably as good as you can get nutritional intake depending on the to your available resources, depending on location, knowledge, budget, mindset and being programmed by 100.000ths of years of evolution ( eat what you can get right now)

There are other alternatives to get our proteins, minerals, vitamins and fatty acids( aminos) so why bother the cow when you know you have options ( that are really much higher in nutritional density and take much less effort to grow.)

When we have established that meat is murder and plants have an emotional life too and respond accordingly to harm being done to them, does this make the cow a mass murderer for eating grass and does the cow have more then one stomach because the grass makes a last stand by not really wanting to be digested and the cow just adapted? ( it has to live to if it wants to cow so more doesnt it?)

Grass "feeds"on minerals in the soil, poor minerals they have no say in this at all, where is this argument going, nowhere, its how it is, no more no less.

Breatharianism, that would be great, but it takes time and effort, since it is a skill that must be aquired/remembered and my guess is you will need a bite to eat while you are learning that skill, since if you dont, you will not make it to the stage of becoming a breatharian, upside is your new job will have something to do with maintenance of white light tunnels and slapping deceased familymembers and dear friends on the back.

As long as we live and are not breatharians, we need to feed, on other living organisms, which organisms is your choice, so is dealing with the possible consequences of it ( whatever those may turn out to be).

I have discussed this with my broccoli last night, we have agreed to disagree, and i will eat it tonight.( and say thanks to it, my green homie saved my life, least i can do is be somewhat gratefull innit?).

[sineck]

i love to eat, i eat everything i like, i listen to my body, my organism, i will become food for this earth one day, thats the honest truth, i have hunted my own food, lived off the land where there are no berries, i believe that gravity takes a piece of me on a daily basis, so even the concept of life is a give and take, in nature, i see the things around me, the beautiful garden that we call earth, and am glad to be a part of it, all are a part of this living organism, i see many city folk that speak of many things, many things that they in turn have no idea in the matter, i do not tread lightly on my needs as a human being, every soul in this world needs nourishment, spiritual and physical.
when put in the situation there is none that would not partake in a meal fit for the lonely man in the forest. yes we need to respect life, and yes i would love that there would exist slaughter houses in every city, with windows, , why? to show the reality of life, that which has been taken away from you, piece by little piece,,,,, just one question for you all, why do, in all honesty exist mosquitos????????

[Eram]

[... just one question for you all, why do, in all honesty exist mosquitos????????

The creators way to have a little fun. :P

[modwiz]

just one question for you all, why do, in all honesty exist mosquitos????????

They are symbolic................of bankers.

[D-Day]

just one question for you all, why do, in all honesty exist mosquitos????????

They are symbolic................of bankers.

LOL

You crack me up modwiz :)

[Abhaya]

Another thought. Logic is inconclusive. (Contradicting statement I know). Actually convincing Arguements defeating the other on this debate could go on for ever canceling the other out endlessly. An expert logician may be even able to make the astounding case that plants are as aware and conscious as us. :p Hey maybe they are the most advanced species lol. Any way forget the logic of this. This issue should come down to Innate feeling and compassion. Every cell of Intuitive feeling in us recognizes the pain and suffering of animals. I challenge anyone to live in close company with a gentle cow for even a week. And then agree to watch that cow get murdered, striped of its skin and grilled up. Perhaps there can be a veggie garden and some fruit trees near by containing all the nutrition needed for the human body. If you eat that cow you have issues, in my opinion, end of story. If you can ignore the logicless empathy your soul feels then that is scary. Similarly while one should also honor and respect plants as a living being. It is also the natural intuitive feeling that they are not suffering as much when they are killed. Suffering is in fact in the mind. Souls in the embodiment of plants to not have minds. They have bodies yes. And of course there is some extremely subtle vague sense of mind you can argue. Not a mind capable of feeling mind bending terror. But the fact is you have to kill to live. How nice that there is a way to do this with out causing as much terror, pain, and suffering. Again what kind of species do we want to be. Are we moving towards an advanced state of being or trying to crawl back in our caves.

We have the ability to recognize suffering in others. It is our duty as a thinking beings to take the path of least violence. At least as best as we can.

[WhiteFeather]

First of all, is your average Jo innocent at all levels just because he just wants to enjoy a steak? Yes..if there is no demand there is no need to supply. I am saddened that this slaughter can be viewed and then written off due to some intellectual gymnastics. The issue is what we do to other living things on the planet..This is my greatest shame as a human. There is no reason to treat animals like this except to make as much money as possible...How can mankind ever evolve, or find peaceful resolutions when this atrocity continues unchecked.. Would this video effect you differently if the slaughtered animals were every dear pet you have ever known?

Some say our teeth are not the teeth of a carnivore, nor do we have the proper born tools (claws) on our naked body to catch, rip and tear flesh like other carnivores have. After the meat is caught, we need to cook it out so we can chew it. Were we originally carnivores, i dont think so.
If we or our children had to go out in the yard to slaughter an animal for dinner every night, i think we would be eating a lot of pasta, peanut butter sandwiches and pizza.

If I May:
Gary Yourofsky is a Jewish American animal rights activist.
Yourofsky was sponsored by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals between the years 2002–2005, and has lectured about veganism to more than 60,000 students in middle school, high school and college.
He has been arrested 13 times between the years 1997–2001, and has spent 77 days in a Canadian maximum security prison in 1999, after raiding a fur farm in Canada, releasing 1,542 mink in 1997.



A 5 Star Lecture IMO. An Interesting perspective by this speaker at the 26:50 Minute Mark



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4

[RMorgan]

First of all, is your average Jo innocent at all levels just because he just wants to enjoy a steak? Yes..if there is no demand there is no need to supply. I am saddened that this slaughter can be viewed and then written off due to some intellectual gymnastics. The issue is what we do to other living things on the planet..This is my greatest shame as a human. There is no reason to treat animals like this except to make as much money as possible...How can mankind ever evolve, or find peaceful resolutions when this atrocity continues unchecked.. Would this video effect you differently if the slaughtered animals were every dear pet you have ever known?

Some say our teeth are not the teeth of a carnivore, nor do we have the proper born tools (claws) on our naked body to catch, rip and tear flesh like other carnivores have. After the meat is caught, we need to cook it out so we can chew it. Were we originally carnivores, i dont think so.
If we or our children had to go out in the yard to slaughter an animal for dinner every night, i think we would be eating a lot of pasta, peanut butter sandwiches and pizza.

And the most important factor; We don´t have the natural desire and instincts to eat animals, otherwise we wouldn´t even be able to have pets, because we wouldn´t resist to the desire to bite their throat.

Natural predators feel the uncontrollable desire to eat whatever is moving. We don´t.

When we see a fruit, hanging from a tree, we feel the natural impulse to grab it and eat it. When we see a puppy, we feel the desire to pet it, not bite it and chew its flesh.

The desire people feel to eat a steak for lunch is a fabricated one. It´s cultural, not natural, which means we´re not born with this desire. People don´t even like the taste of raw meat; they cook it and spice it with vegetables and salt to make it taste good.

We don´t see our three years old kids chasing an animal to grab it and eat it, like a cat puppy would do to a mouse or an insect.

Their parents who teach them to eat meat; They are not natural born killers.

We just don´t have the instincts of carnivores.

[blufire]

First of all, is your average Jo innocent at all levels just because he just wants to enjoy a steak? Yes..if there is no demand there is no need to supply. I am saddened that this slaughter can be viewed and then written off due to some intellectual gymnastics. The issue is what we do to other living things on the planet..This is my greatest shame as a human. There is no reason to treat animals like this except to make as much money as possible...How can mankind ever evolve, or find peaceful resolutions when this atrocity continues unchecked.. Would this video effect you differently if the slaughtered animals were every dear pet you have ever known?

Some say our teeth are not the teeth of a carnivore, nor do we have the proper born tools (claws) on our naked body to catch, rip and tear flesh like other carnivores have. After the meat is caught, we need to cook it out so we can chew it. Were we originally carnivores, i dont think so.
If we or our children had to go out in the yard to slaughter an animal for dinner every night, i think we would be eating a lot of pasta, peanut butter sandwiches and pizza.

And the most important factor; We don´t have the natural desire and instincts to eat animals, otherwise we wouldn´t even be able to have pets, because we wouldn´t resist to the desire to bite their throat.

Natural predators feel the uncontrollable desire to eat whatever is moving. We don´t.

When we see a fruit, hanging from a tree, we feel the natural impulse to grab it and eat it. When we see a puppy, we feel the desire to pet it, not bite it and chew its flesh.

The desire people feel to eat a steak for lunch is a fabricated one. It´s cultural, not natural, which means we´re not born with this desire. People don´t even like the taste of raw meat; they cook it and spice it with vegetables and salt to make it taste good.

We don´t see our three years old kids chasing an animal to grab it and eat it, like a cat puppy would do to a mouse or an insect.

Their parents who teach them to eat meat; They are not natural born killers.

We just don´t have the instincts of carnivores.

RMorgan I usually respect and appreciate your posts, but this one has left me baffled.

Your analogy and justification of humans being carnivores is just flat wrong. Of course humans don’t have these desires or instincts because we are NOT carnivores . . . . we are omnivores and I really am amazed at how many on this forum do not seem to understand this one simple irrefutable fact.

No, of course humans do not have the instinct or desire or are fully equipped as a carnivore is to kill and eat prey . . . . because we are omnivores. But on the same hand humans can be triggered to become aggressive and attack and kill . . . .happens every minute of everyday, especially when we feel threatened or protecting our families.

I won’t even go into herbivores and how we share some of those traits and lack other traits . . . because we are a blend (dare I say BALANCE) of both carnivores and herbivores.

I have never seen on this forum any meat eater (omnivore) support or defend factory farming or factory slaughter of animals . . . . . not one. . . . .

I am weary and very discouraged that this topic is brought up over and over and without any type of truce or understanding. These threads only make it very clear that we as a defined ‘alternative’ group will never be able to be united or unified enough to make a significant change in the direction we are being lead and herded. These types of threads expose our extrememly weak areas and abilities.

I really wish instead of every few weeks any ‘V’ that desires to post another thread that is this propaganda filled, division creating and emotionally fear laden. That this member just add his/her video to the already forty, eleven hundred threads and posts where this topic has been thoroughly discussed over and over and over and over. This thread is just a pathetic repeat of all those other threads and posts.

These type of threads and opinions make me just want to slip away into the mist and give up even trying to make a difference on a large scale. I always come away from threads like these feeling that, Me, as an individual, is not valued or respected or have a place on a forum such as Avalon. I don’t fit in.

Oddly enough I am on my way out the door to process (butcher) a deer that was brought to me by a neighbor who bow hunts. The meat will go to our local food bank to feed coal miners and their families who are out of work.

[Abhaya]

First of all, is your average Jo innocent at all levels just because he just wants to enjoy a steak? Yes..if there is no demand there is no need to supply. I am saddened that this slaughter can be viewed and then written off due to some intellectual gymnastics. The issue is what we do to other living things on the planet..This is my greatest shame as a human. There is no reason to treat animals like this except to make as much money as possible...How can mankind ever evolve, or find peaceful resolutions when this atrocity continues unchecked.. Would this video effect you differently if the slaughtered animals were every dear pet you have ever known?

Some say our teeth are not the teeth of a carnivore, nor do we have the proper born tools (claws) on our naked body to catch, rip and tear flesh like other carnivores have. After the meat is caught, we need to cook it out so we can chew it. Were we originally carnivores, i dont think so.
If we or our children had to go out in the yard to slaughter an animal for dinner every night, i think we would be eating a lot of pasta, peanut butter sandwiches and pizza.

And the most important factor; We don´t have the natural desire and instincts to eat animals, otherwise we wouldn´t even be able to have pets, because we wouldn´t resist to the desire to bite their throat.

Natural predators feel the uncontrollable desire to eat whatever is moving. We don´t.

When we see a fruit, hanging from a tree, we feel the natural impulse to grab it and eat it. When we see a puppy, we feel the desire to pet it, not bite it and chew its flesh.

The desire people feel to eat a steak for lunch is a fabricated one. It´s cultural, not natural, which means we´re not born with this desire. People don´t even like the taste of raw meat; they cook it and spice it with vegetables and salt to make it taste good.

We don´t see our three years old kids chasing an animal to grab it and eat it, like a cat puppy would do to a mouse or an insect.

Their parents who teach them to eat meat; They are not natural born killers.

We just don´t have the instincts of carnivores.

Great points! Meat eating is a cultural phenomenon. If you told your average villager in India that we are supposed to eat meat they would look at you with the same crazy eyes that joe McDonald would give when he was confronted by a feisty vegan.

[RMorgan]

Blufire,

My argument was pointed to those saying that we´re natural predators. That´s all.

I´m just saying we´re aren´t natural predators, carnivores.

I´m sure we´re biologically equipped to be able to eat many different things, including cooked red meat. That´s why we have adapted to live even on the most extreme environments in this world.

Being omnivorous, means that we can choose what to eat, which clearly points to the fact that, nowadays, if one decides to eat meat, it´s simply by choice, not by biological necessities.

Personally, if I´m fortunate enough to be able to choose the path that creates less unnecessary suffering, I´m choosing this path.

We can choose. I choose not to murder innocent and highly sensitive animals simply to satisfy taste.

Raf.

[blufire]

Blufire,

My argument was pointed to those saying that we´re natural predators. That´s all.

I´m just saying we´re aren´t natural predators, carnivores.

I´m sure we´re biologically equipped to be able to eat many different things, including cooked red meat. That´s why have have adapted to live even on the most extreme environments in this world.

Being omnivorous, means that we can choose what to eat, which clearly points to the fact that, nowadays, if one decides to eat meat, it´s simply by choice, not by biological necessities.

Personally, if I´m fortunate enough to be able to choose the path that creates less unnecessary suffering, I´m choosing this path.

We can choose. I choose not to murder innocent and highly sensitive animals simply to satisfy taste.Raf.


For many humans red meat protein is a biological necessity, I happen to be one of those.

And again . . . .yet another condemnation and attack against omnivores. I am not a murderer or insensitive because of my diet.

There are many regions of this world that the only food available out of several months a year is meat and limited root crops that has been stored or harvested from the wild. What do you say to these people? There are millions of them . . . .distinct cultures and heritage.

These people cannot be vegetarian and certainly not a raw food eater or vegan . . . . are they condemned to some sort of spiritual hell because of where they live and their culture and heritage?

If your philosophy is not a Truth for all humans then it cannot be Truth for humanity.

[blufire]

First of all, is your average Jo innocent at all levels just because he just wants to enjoy a steak? Yes..if there is no demand there is no need to supply. I am saddened that this slaughter can be viewed and then written off due to some intellectual gymnastics. The issue is what we do to other living things on the planet..This is my greatest shame as a human. There is no reason to treat animals like this except to make as much money as possible...How can mankind ever evolve, or find peaceful resolutions when this atrocity continues unchecked.. Would this video effect you differently if the slaughtered animals were every dear pet you have ever known?

Some say our teeth are not the teeth of a carnivore, nor do we have the proper born tools (claws) on our naked body to catch, rip and tear flesh like other carnivores have. After the meat is caught, we need to cook it out so we can chew it. Were we originally carnivores, i dont think so.
If we or our children had to go out in the yard to slaughter an animal for dinner every night, i think we would be eating a lot of pasta, peanut butter sandwiches and pizza.

And the most important factor; We don´t have the natural desire and instincts to eat animals, otherwise we wouldn´t even be able to have pets, because we wouldn´t resist to the desire to bite their throat.

Natural predators feel the uncontrollable desire to eat whatever is moving. We don´t.

When we see a fruit, hanging from a tree, we feel the natural impulse to grab it and eat it. When we see a puppy, we feel the desire to pet it, not bite it and chew its flesh.

The desire people feel to eat a steak for lunch is a fabricated one. It´s cultural, not natural, which means we´re not born with this desire. People don´t even like the taste of raw meat; they cook it and spice it with vegetables and salt to make it taste good.

We don´t see our three years old kids chasing an animal to grab it and eat it, like a cat puppy would do to a mouse or an insect.

Their parents who teach them to eat meat; They are not natural born killers.

We just don´t have the instincts of carnivores.

Great points! Meat eating is a cultural phenomenon. If you told your average villager in India that we are supposed to eat meat they would look at you with the same crazy eyes that joe McDonald would give when he was confronted by a feisty vegan.



A cultural phenomenon? This is so absurd. What would you tell an Inuit when almost all they have to survive on is meat and fish? What kind of look would he give you if you told him he should be a vegetarian? Or how about the Nomads in our deserts of the world or Indigenous Tribes all over the world that still live culturally and are largely meat eaters because of where they live is not conducive to agriculture?

[Maia Gabrial]

No they don't, "rights" are a human made conception that we have assigned to ourselves (which I support) if animals have any "rights" then they are about 95% criminal and violate eachothers rights in much worse ways than we do, I have never started eating an animal while it was still alive (though I often do this to veggies :-/) I have never forced someone "from the herd" causing them to be picked off by predators, or killed another of my species so I could mate with a choice female.

So you say, Target. Look at your perception of it all. At least you don't do these things? Are you man or animal? We're supposed to be a higher intelligent race and look at how barbaric we are....

All I've been saying is that if anyone is going to continue being a flesheater, then bring honor to those animals you happily munch on. Plain and simple. My choice is to not eat them anymore. If I could eliminate the need to eat plants, too; I would.... I believe that eating is just another one of those illusions we've been brainwashed into believing. Breathanarians have proven that it's possible to just live on air. I know, it doesn't sound as delectable as a good ole fear drenched Angus beef steak smothered in GMO onions, but hey what if we're all brought to the point where there's no food available?

Honestly, I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their eating habits. However, as a superior race about to make a leap in evolution, we need to look at our food sources and those we're sharing this planet with,with alittle more gratitude....

[Lettherebelight]

I think Abhaya means meat eating is a cultural influence of conditioning in cultures that live in climates where there are other options. So in this context, it is certainly not an 'absurd' conjecture.

No one is implying that cultures who live where the climate necessitates the eating of animals that they should be vegetarians. If one is living in a harsh or extreme climate, where it is not possible to grow anything, one doesn't have much of a choice...does one?

[Abhaya]

Blufire,

My argument was pointed to those saying that we´re natural predators. That´s all.

I´m just saying we´re aren´t natural predators, carnivores.

I´m sure we´re biologically equipped to be able to eat many different things, including cooked red meat. That´s why we have adapted to live even on the most extreme environments in this world.

Being omnivorous, means that we can choose what to eat, which clearly points to the fact that, nowadays, if one decides to eat meat, it´s simply by choice, not by biological necessities.

Personally, if I´m fortunate enough to be able to choose the path that creates less unnecessary suffering, I´m choosing this path.

We can choose. I choose not to murder innocent and highly sensitive animals simply to satisfy taste.

Raf.

:whoo:
!!!!!!!!!!!!

[blufire]

Blufire,

My argument was pointed to those saying that we´re natural predators. That´s all.

I´m just saying we´re aren´t natural predators, carnivores.

I´m sure we´re biologically equipped to be able to eat many different things, including cooked red meat. That´s why we have adapted to live even on the most extreme environments in this world.

Being omnivorous, means that we can choose what to eat, which clearly points to the fact that, nowadays, if one decides to eat meat, it´s simply by choice, not by biological necessities.

Personally, if I´m fortunate enough to be able to choose the path that creates less unnecessary suffering, I´m choosing this path.

We can choose. I choose not to murder innocent and highly sensitive animals simply to satisfy taste.

Raf.

:whoo:
!!!!!!!!!!!!


And this is condescending and hurtful as well . . . .

[Lettherebelight]

I think they are just saying how they feel about the subject and agreeing, Blufire. Not trying to hurt anyone...or thing for that matter.

Let's remember, vegetarians etc are the very small minority. Why let it bother you emotionally?

[13th Warrior]

First of all, is your average Jo innocent at all levels just because he just wants to enjoy a steak? Yes..if there is no demand there is no need to supply. I am saddened that this slaughter can be viewed and then written off due to some intellectual gymnastics. The issue is what we do to other living things on the planet..This is my greatest shame as a human. There is no reason to treat animals like this except to make as much money as possible...How can mankind ever evolve, or find peaceful resolutions when this atrocity continues unchecked.. Would this video effect you differently if the slaughtered animals were every dear pet you have ever known?

Some say our teeth are not the teeth of a carnivore, nor do we have the proper born tools (claws) on our naked body to catch, rip and tear flesh like other carnivores have. After the meat is caught, we need to cook it out so we can chew it. Were we originally carnivores, i dont think so.
If we or our children had to go out in the yard to slaughter an animal for dinner every night, i think we would be eating a lot of pasta, peanut butter sandwiches and pizza.

And the most important factor; We don´t have the natural desire and instincts to eat animals, otherwise we wouldn´t even be able to have pets, because we wouldn´t resist to the desire to bite their throat.

Natural predators feel the uncontrollable desire to eat whatever is moving. We don´t.

When we see a fruit, hanging from a tree, we feel the natural impulse to grab it and eat it. When we see a puppy, we feel the desire to pet it, not bite it and chew its flesh.

The desire people feel to eat a steak for lunch is a fabricated one. It´s cultural, not natural, which means we´re not born with this desire. People don´t even like the taste of raw meat; they cook it and spice it with vegetables and salt to make it taste good.

We don´t see our three years old kids chasing an animal to grab it and eat it, like a cat puppy would do to a mouse or an insect.

Their parents who teach them to eat meat; They are not natural born killers.

We just don´t have the instincts of carnivores.

It's easy to spot those who have lost connection to nature and our own ancestry by their own words...


Natural predators feel the uncontrollable desire to eat whatever is moving. We don´t.


I wonder what it is that keeps them from eating themselves out of existence?



When we see a fruit, hanging from a tree, we feel the natural impulse to grab it and eat it. When we see a puppy, we feel the desire to pet it, not bite it and chew its flesh.

Puppies/canines are the decedents of wild wolves that man has domesticated for the use/efficiency of hunting other animals; we don't eat them because they are our ancestral hunting partners.


We just don´t have the instincts of carnivores.

Who is "We"; do you have a mouse in your pocket? 8^)

[sleepy]

xxxxx xxxxx.

[Abhaya]

Blu fire going to have to call bs on your claim that you in particular need meat to survive. Maybe you believe that and maybe a doctor even told you that but... No not buying that one. And even if that's true does that then mean everyone should eat meat?

Also you keep falling back on the omnivore thing. Again while our jaw indicates that during our evolutionary past meat was part of our diets, this does not give reason to continue on said path forever. Current and more meaningful evolutionary leaps, such as the ability to reason, and thus the ability to live with out killing animals have far more weight then our evolutionary jaw structure.

[Lettherebelight]

Animals of the field are killed by several factors, including:
1. Tractors and farm implements run over them.
2. Plows and cultivators destroy underground burrows and kill animals.
3. Removal of the crops (harvest) removes ground cover allowing animals on the surface to be killed by predators.
4. Application of pesticides.

All these examples are not done wilfully. The person driving the tractor, etc is not trying to kill these animals. It is different than deliberately leading an animal to slaughter. Would you agree?

If I accidentally run someone over, or deliberately mow them down...is there a difference?

[Abhaya]

You are making a choice plain and simple. And if these topics make you feel mad or sad that's good. If they have no effect then you should be worried

[blufire]

I think they are just saying how they feel about the subject and agreeing, Blufire. Not trying to hurt anyone...or thing for that matter.

Let's remember, vegetarians etc are the very small minority. Why let it bother you emotionally?

No . . .. abhaya is (imo) being hurtful and in your face with this little display.

And this is one of my foundational points

The overall (broad) opinion of the ‘V’s”, who are polarized and militant, is holier than thou, superior, condescending and narrow minded.

General points and philosophy about a subject such as this has to Truth for all humanity across the Planet for us to even slowly begin to move forward in any type of unity. I am being cornered because I live in a country that has more acess to all foods to become a ‘V’.

I should not be put in a position or forced to make a choice . . . . which is no choice at all . . . . to become a ‘V’ .because someone deems I am a murderer and a spiritual Neanderthal because I am true and comfortable with my omnivore biological makeup.

and on this forum I (as a true omnivore) am in the minority

[sleepy]

xxxxx xxxxx

[Lettherebelight]

I agree Blufire, that you shouldn't feel cornered or forced. I feel your pain, and maybe you don't enjoy the processing (butchering). It can't be easy for a sensitive person to take the life of another creature and you are doing it yourself which is a better way than those mechanized slaughterhouses in the OP video. Houses of Hell.

Maybe there will never be a total unity on this one, because we are all different...But just to let you know, Blufire, I understand and am not condescending (looking down). We are side by side.

I am surprised to hear that omnivores are the minority here, I always thought it was the opposite.

[blufire]

Animals of the field are killed by several factors, including:
1. Tractors and farm implements run over them.
2. Plows and cultivators destroy underground burrows and kill animals.
3. Removal of the crops (harvest) removes ground cover allowing animals on the surface to be killed by predators.
4. Application of pesticides.

All these examples are not done wilfully. The person driving the tractor, etc is not trying to kill these animals. It is different than deliberately leading an animal to slaughter. Would you agree?

If I accidentally run someone over, or deliberately mow them down...is there a difference?

I disagree. I am pretty sure the farmer knows he is going to plow up field mice and bunny rabbits but he wants to plant his crops. It isn't an accident and the animals die, sometimes a gruesome death. I don't judge the farmer because he needs to plant his crops.

edit to add: I don't judge you for eating the crops that killed the animals either. If it makes you feel better because you think it is an accident that's O.K. with me too.

Actually sleepy is 100% correct with this.

On my organic farm in Kansas I cringed every time I had to prepare the fields to plant because I knew many small animals would be killed by the machinery. I trained a couple of my dogs to run in front of the tractor to scare away as many as possible. Also, the hawks would come closer to the fields I was working in because the rabbits and mice that would flee were easy picking.

I won’t even describe what happened when the pastures had to be mowed.

[meat suit]

So because we cannot really know that a plant feels less pain then a cow for instance. (Even though again a 5 year old intuitively feels this) then ur saying that gives us license to kill cows. The only point u seem to be raising actually is that we cannot really know something. But we can do our best to act correctly. And maybe the intuitive feeling that is inherent in a 5 year old that would cringe at seeing a scared tortured cow, and have a much more difficult time detecting pain in a carrot is a pretty good way to know. I maintain that you are making a rediculous stretch in logic to justify ur eating meat.

If you really felt some compassion for plants as you claim you would never kill a cow.

I take it, that is your reply to my above post... it makes me think that you arent intrested in exploring the wider picture of whats going on here...
I often found that this is a very emotional subject and people are struggling to stay rational...

my position is that I am an omnivore, I eat plants and animal produce/meat, I strongly disagree with non organic farming practices/over fishing etc. and for the sake of animal/plant/enviroment wellfare I eat organic....

and with that I say goodbye from this thread...:o

[Lettherebelight]

Hi Sleepy, I understand your disagreement with the point about wilfull killing, although I still disagree with you on that one, and thats ok--dont expect the whole world to agree with me.

You have said a few times you won't judge. It is your rightful use of intelligence to judge things, as well as people's actions! This isnt some kind of Law court, its just a discussion forum. So I don't mind you judging at all. :)

[blufire]

Blu fire going to have to call bs on your claim that you in particular need meat to survive. Maybe you believe that and maybe a doctor even told you that but... No not buying that one. And even if that's true does that then mean everyone should eat meat?

Also you keep falling back on the omnivore thing. Again while our jaw indicates that during our evolutionary past meat was part of our diets, this does not give reason to continue on said path forever. Current and more meaningful evolutionary leaps, such as the ability to reason, and thus the ability to live with out killing animals have far more weight then our evolutionary jaw structure.


It is not that require meat and particularly red meat to survive . . . . .My body requires a certain amount of red meat protein to be ultimately healthy.

You, my friend need to educate yourself much more on the anatomy and biological function of the human body.

I would suggest you start with amino acids and proteins, which are the building blocks of all life.

I would also suggest that regurgitating information from sources that are either ill informed or have an agenda are not supportive to your mission.

And in no way am I even remotely suggesting that all should eat meat.

On my organic farm in Kansas I worked very closely with many vegetarians and even vegan (bit more difficult) customers to fulfill the diet that they had chosen. Even to the point of keeping several hens separate from the rooster so he could not fertilize their eggs and therefore avoided the possibility that a chick embryo was growing in the eggs that were sold to the more hard core vegetarians

[sleepy]

xxxxx xxxxx

[Abhaya]

I should say that I have been extremely direct and yes offensive. I however do not see any member of this thread as a lower then any one anything . Everyone here is open minded to an amazing
Degree. while I am happy to be a vegetarian. I have many countless failures in other aspects of my life and personality. When I seem to be attacking, know that I am attacking this one aspect of your personhood and not you as a whole. That being said I will not apologize or hold any hands when it comes to this particular choice in our lives and personhoods.

Choosing to kill or support the killing of highly aware animals is inexcusable. And there is little room for middle ground on this issue

[RMorgan]

Hey folks,

I just want to add a bit to this great debate.

Check out, if you feel like doing so, this amazing lecture by Gary Yourofsky.

Go to the 2 minutes mark to skip the introduction:

es6U00LMmC4

He´s got some very clever arguments.

I highly recommend this video...I know, it´s a long video, but it´s good.

Cheers,

Raf.

[lunaflare]

This thread itself displays varying beliefs...and beliefs, by design, are rigid and un-wavering. Sure, they can be changed if there is a ready willingness to do so.
I acknowledge this in my own vegetarian choices. This belief I hold is solid! I find everything about the meat culture offensive. It is a certainty I hold that feels right on every level. Is there hypocrisy in this? Absolutely. When I am in Spain, I drink and consume milk/dairy. I know first hand that the animals are not treated well in certain farms in northern rural Spain. Otherwise, all Farms would be organic, farmers would not take away the young from their mothers and not simply see animals for profit and produce. In fact, there would not be a Dairy Industry. And yet, I still partake in the Industry. Choice. Perhaps I will in the future change my ways as my consciousness dictates. We can all "rationalize" our behavior and decisions as this forum shows well.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that there is enough information around for people to make informed choices. I do believe our actions need to be witnessed. People are less likely to rape, murder and abuse the more vulnerable (domesticated animals/children/elderly) when their actions are witnessed. Regulation is needed to lessen the potential for cruelty in our species (as in slaughter houses). Our souls-and not necessarily our social "laws"- seem to dictate that cruelty and causing harm is a crime. So why is there cruelty in our world and why do we mostly look away?

[Abhaya]

So because we cannot really know that a plant feels less pain then a cow for instance. (Even though again a 5 year old intuitively feels this) then ur saying that gives us license to kill cows. The only point u seem to be raising actually is that we cannot really know something. But we can do our best to act correctly. And maybe the intuitive feeling that is inherent in a 5 year old that would cringe at seeing a scared tortured cow, and have a much more difficult time detecting pain in a carrot is a pretty good way to know. I maintain that you are making a rediculous stretch in logic to justify ur eating meat.

If you really felt some compassion for plants as you claim you would never kill a cow.

I take it, that is your reply to my above post... it makes me think that you arent intrested in exploring the wider picture of whats going on here...
I often found that this is a very emotional subject and people are struggling to stay rational...

my position is that I am an omnivore, I eat plants and animal produce/meat, I strongly disagree with non organic farming practices/over fishing etc. and for the sake of animal/plant/enviroment wellfare I eat organic....

and with that I say goodbye from this thread...:o

That was a reply to target. This was a brief reply to you before I signed off last night

Even if there were literally no solution to the mess we have created with slaughter houses. There will never be a justification for your eating of the meat. If nazi's were destined to kill all the Jews should you jump on board?

¤=[Post Update]=¤[COLOR="red"]

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Another interesting thing, in regards to arguments for and against this issue, is that arguments for tend to be full of spirited feeling, and compassion. You can find so many debate clips of speeches by pro v people that will leave almost anyone crying. For instance there is the famous Ted talk on this debate. On the contrast the meat side of the debate will usually consist of very dry or witty and often abstract logic. The only emotion will be of a personal defensive nature. There are never any truly compassionate speeches advocating the eating of meat. I wonder why :p. always better to take the compassionate side.

[blufire]

That was a reply to target. This was a brief reply to you before I signed off last night

Even if there were literally no solution to the mess we have created with slaughter houses. There will never be a justification for your eating of the meat. If nazi's were destined to kill all the Jews should you jump on board?

¤=[Post Update]=¤[COLOR="red"]

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Another interesting thing, in regards to arguments for and against this issue, is that arguments for tend to be full of spirited feeling, and compassion. You can find so many debate clips of speeches by pro v people that will leave almost anyone crying. For instance there is the famous Ted talk on this debate. On the contrast the meat side of the debate will usually consist of very dry or witty and often abstract logic. The only emotion will be of a personal defensive nature. There are never any truly compassionate speeches advocating the eating of meat. I wonder why :p. always better to take the compassionate side.


With these astoundingly immature comments I take my leave of this thread.

I am going to make note of it however so when the next attack from the more polarized militant “V’s” comes blaring through with the next destructive propaganda I will refer that thread back to this one.

Abhaya, bram and others . . . I suggest you do a forum search with keywords, vegetarian or meat eaters, there is already volumes of threads and posts on this topic. Educate yourselves.

The posts and information (mine included) has been posted over and over before and this serves no function other to keep the forum members involved agitated, negative and polarized . . . . . makes me very sad and disheartened for a community that is supposedly enlightened and aware.

I always wonder why the more informed rational vegans and vegetarians don’t come in and sideline the more hateful, misinformed ‘V’s”. They do not do your community service and actually are harmful to your diet choice and lifestyle.

[GloriousPoetry]

If the decline of large predators and other apex consumers at the top of the food chain was disrupted ecosystems all over the planet would be disruptive. There's a balance to everything in our planet. Greed by Monsanto is not part of the balance but neither is casting off the natural world by turning everyone into a vegetarian.

[Abhaya]

If the decline of large predators and other apex consumers at the top of the food chain was disrupted ecosystems all over the planet would be disruptive. There's a balance to everything in our planet. Greed by Monsanto is not part of the balance but neither is casting off the natural world by turning everyone into a vegetarian.


Thankfully we have these slaughter houses to maintain the balance. They are working great.... :/

[Abhaya]

Blu..... These threads force people to think about the issue. It is important that such stimulus be around from time to time. Thank you for helping to bring out so many points on both sides of the Debate. While we disagree here I respect you in every other way. I also promise not to eat u :p . Come back for another round any time

[TargeT]

Every cell of Intuitive feeling in us recognizes the pain and suffering of animals.

Pain and suffering of animals? I'd say the quality of life of most farm animals is pretty low in general, though their awareness level is so low it doesn't seem to matter.



I challenge anyone to live in close company with a gentle cow for even a week. And then agree to watch that cow get murdered, striped of its skin and grilled up. Perhaps there can be a veggie garden and some fruit trees near by containing all the nutrition needed for the human body. If you eat that cow you have issues, in my opinion, end of story.

Nice hypothetical, have you ever worked on a farm or been on one for more than a hour or two? I have, I have slaughtered cattle and chickens and pigs too in Nebraska.

Where do people think food comes from, I found out on my grandfathers farm.

FYI, despite your judgments I have no more "issues" than anyone else; I just happen to understand where my species fits in this ecological system and accept it.



If you can ignore the logicless empathy your soul feels then that is scary. Similarly while one should also honor and respect plants as a living being. It is also the natural intuitive feeling that they are not suffering as much when they are killed. Suffering is in fact in the mind.
suffering is highly unlikely from animals, I have worked around them long enough to know this, they do not suffer as we define it, they feel pain yes, it is a biological response, but they do not suffer from it (and I have many examples of this, especially from my own pets that I cared for deeply), Suffering is a higher logic function, only humans and maybe some primates are even capable of this.


Souls in the embodiment of plants to not have minds. They have bodies yes. And of course there is some extremely subtle vague sense of mind you can argue. Not a mind capable of feeling mind bending terror. But the fact is you have to kill to live. How nice that there is a way to do this with out causing as much terror, pain, and suffering. Again what kind of species do we want to be. Are we moving towards an advanced state of being or trying to crawl back in our caves.

We have the ability to recognize suffering in others. It is our duty as a thinking beings to take the path of least violence. At least as best as we can.
Terror, really? If it was “terror” then how come a simple change of environment for 20 min can change the mind set of the animal before you take it right back to the same area?
It is much more like a survival instinct, not terror; quit applying silly human mental contraptions to animals that do not have the capacity for those higher thought functions.



Some say our teeth are not the teeth of a carnivore, nor do we have the proper born tools (claws) on our naked body to catch, rip and tear flesh like other carnivores have. After the meat is caught, we need to cook it out so we can chew it. Were we originally carnivores, i dont think so.
If we or our children had to go out in the yard to slaughter an animal for dinner every night, i think we would be eating a lot of pasta, peanut butter sandwiches and pizza.

Full of false info. FULL!
We have the proper "tools" you said it right there... we have "tools" facilitated by a brain. this is how we catch our food, our tools are much better than animals tools, thus we are the top predator.
Raw food is MUCH easier to eat ( I do eat it quite often and think cooking only came around for sanitary reasons, Raw meat is MUCH better for you as well) cooking food makes it TOUGHER and harder to chew, this is a fact ANYONE can find out forthemselfs.

While in Mexico I found it was quite often the job of children to go out and kill chickens, this happened at least once a week, sometimes more depending on the size of the family. (this never changed what was on the menu)


And the most important factor; We don´t have the natural desire and instincts to eat animals, otherwise we wouldn´t even be able to have pets, because we wouldn´t resist to the desire to bite their throat.

Natural predators feel the uncontrollable desire to eat whatever is moving. We don´t.

When we see a fruit, hanging from a tree, we feel the natural impulse to grab it and eat it. When we see a puppy, we feel the desire to pet it, not bite it and chew its flesh.
.

wrong again, Predatory behavior is not always instinctual, I test for it in dogs I raise (we call it "prey drive") a lot of predators just do not have it and have to be taught what to do by parents, much the same as humans.

I feel no draw to eat anything I haven't been shown is good, baby humans put EVERYTHING in their mouths (even to their own detriment) in order to find out "what is good to eat" this includes animals.

Your statements are heavily flawed.



Honestly, I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their eating habits. However, as a superior race about to make a leap in evolution, we need to look at our food sources and those we're sharing this planet with,with alittle more gratitude....

well I completely agree with this, I abhor the treatment of cattle on "feed lots" and do my best to avoid products from them at all costs, slaughter houses are not run very well either but anytime you mass produce ANYTHING this happens.

I much prefer the hunt and gratitude of the hunter that collects its pray, or the swift work of an organic farmer that only slaughters a few cattle at a time. This is also done in a thankful way as this meat will provide for the farmers family when it is sold, the intentions all around are better.


All I am attempting to do in this highly biased thread is interject some SANITY, the "vegan" approach is fine, it's a personal choice, trying to force it on others and claim other choices are basically "evil" (how ever you word it) is polarized duality, completely unbalanced and the exact problem with society today.

Other people seem to like posting videos, here’s one for you (one of my favorites) that describes what is going on here and why hardcore “vegan” mentalities will NEVER be changed by ideas to the contrary; it’s a simple function of neurology.

dbh5l0b2-0o

[Lettherebelight]

Hey folks,

I just want to add a bit to this great debate.

Check out, if you feel like doing so, this amazing lecture by Gary Yourofsky.

Go to the 2 minutes mark to skip the introduction:

es6U00LMmC4

He´s got some very clever arguments.

I highly recommend this video...I know, it´s a long video, but it´s good.

Cheers,

Raf.

Well, thanks for sharing this amazing vid, Raf. My husband and I just watched it...now he has announced he's going vegan!

Looks like I'm gonna be on a big learning curve in the cooking department!!

I think I'll give it a whirl as well...why not?

[Abhaya]

Every cell of Intuitive feeling in us recognizes the pain and suffering of animals.

Pain and suffering of animals? I'd say the quality of life of most farm animals is pretty low in general, though their awareness level is so low it doesn't seem to matter.



I challenge anyone to live in close company with a gentle cow for even a week. And then agree to watch that cow get murdered, striped of its skin and grilled up. Perhaps there can be a veggie garden and some fruit trees near by containing all the nutrition needed for the human body. If you eat that cow you have issues, in my opinion, end of story.

Nice hypothetical, have you ever worked on a farm or been on one for more than a hour or two? I have, I have slaughtered cattle and chickens and pigs too in Nebraska.

Where do people think food comes from, I found out on my grandfathers farm.

FYI, despite your judgments I have no more "issues" than anyone else; I just happen to understand where my species fits in this ecological system and accept it.



If you can ignore the logicless empathy your soul feels then that is scary. Similarly while one should also honor and respect plants as a living being. It is also the natural intuitive feeling that they are not suffering as much when they are killed. Suffering is in fact in the mind.
suffering is highly unlikely from animals, I have worked around them long enough to know this, they do not suffer as we define it, they feel pain yes, it is a biological response, but they do not suffer from it (and I have many examples of this, especially from my own pets that I cared for deeply), Suffering is a higher logic function, only humans and maybe some primates are even capable of this.


Souls in the embodiment of plants to not have minds. They have bodies yes. And of course there is some extremely subtle vague sense of mind you can argue. Not a mind capable of feeling mind bending terror. But the fact is you have to kill to live. How nice that there is a way to do this with out causing as much terror, pain, and suffering. Again what kind of species do we want to be. Are we moving towards an advanced state of being or trying to crawl back in our caves.

We have the ability to recognize suffering in others. It is our duty as a thinking beings to take the path of least violence. At least as best as we can.
Terror, really? If it was “terror” then how come a simple change of environment for 20 min can change the mind set of the animal before you take it right back to the same area?
It is much more like a survival instinct, not terror; quit applying silly human mental contraptions to animals that do not have the capacity for those higher thought functions.



Some say our teeth are not the teeth of a carnivore, nor do we have the proper born tools (claws) on our naked body to catch, rip and tear flesh like other carnivores have. After the meat is caught, we need to cook it out so we can chew it. Were we originally carnivores, i dont think so.
If we or our children had to go out in the yard to slaughter an animal for dinner every night, i think we would be eating a lot of pasta, peanut butter sandwiches and pizza.

Full of false info. FULL!
We have the proper "tools" you said it right there... we have "tools" facilitated by a brain. this is how we catch our food, our tools are much better than animals tools, thus we are the top predator.
Raw food is MUCH easier to eat ( I do eat it quite often and think cooking only came around for sanitary reasons, Raw meat is MUCH better for you as well) cooking food makes it TOUGHER and harder to chew, this is a fact ANYONE can find out forthemselfs.

While in Mexico I found it was quite often the job of children to go out and kill chickens, this happened at least once a week, sometimes more depending on the size of the family. (this never changed what was on the menu)


And the most important factor; We don´t have the natural desire and instincts to eat animals, otherwise we wouldn´t even be able to have pets, because we wouldn´t resist to the desire to bite their throat.

Natural predators feel the uncontrollable desire to eat whatever is moving. We don´t.

When we see a fruit, hanging from a tree, we feel the natural impulse to grab it and eat it. When we see a puppy, we feel the desire to pet it, not bite it and chew its flesh.
.

wrong again, Predatory behavior is not always instinctual, I test for it in dogs I raise (we call it "prey drive") a lot of predators just do not have it and have to be taught what to do by parents, much the same as humans.

I feel no draw to eat anything I haven't been shown is good, baby humans put EVERYTHING in their mouths (even to their own detriment) in order to find out "what is good to eat" this includes animals.

Your statements are heavily flawed.



Honestly, I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their eating habits. However, as a superior race about to make a leap in evolution, we need to look at our food sources and those we're sharing this planet with,with alittle more gratitude....

well I completely agree with this, I abhor the treatment of cattle on "feed lots" and do my best to avoid products from them at all costs, slaughter houses are not run very well either but anytime you mass produce ANYTHING this happens.

I much prefer the hunt and gratitude of the hunter that collects its pray, or the swift work of an organic farmer that only slaughters a few cattle at a time. This is also done in a thankful way as this meat will provide for the farmers family when it is sold, the intentions all around are better.


All I am attempting to do in this highly biased thread is interject some SANITY, the "vegan" approach is fine, it's a personal choice, trying to force it on others and claim other choices are basically "evil" (how ever you word it) is polarized duality, completely unbalanced and the exact problem with society today.

Other people seem to like posting videos, here’s one for you (one of my favorites) that describes what is going on here and why hardcore “vegan” mentalities will NEVER be changed by ideas to the contrary; it’s a simple function of neurology.

dbh5l0b2-0o

Wow tell us how you really feel mr compassion :p . Actually I'm not going to reply to ur claims that animals don't suffer. Because if you doubt that then ur lost beyond the help of this debate.

However in glad that you ask about my farm experience. Actually I'm writing this from an ahimsa (cruelty free) dairy farm in Costa Rica that I spend at least 3 months of every year living at. Not to mention I have spent years of my life here in the past. Here we function around a small herd of cows. None of which we kill or ever plan to. Wouldn't be fair considering we couldn't exsist with out them. The two milkers provide our average community of 10 with almost more raw milk products then we can handle. We are training their two most recent calves to be trained oxen. All these cows plus the Bull and our other oxen are giving us a steady supply of fresh manure from which we have some amazingly lush gardens. From which we all survive( with out any meat :0) . We also have a methane digester from which we will soon be able to cook our veggies with.

Funny I spent all this time on the farm and haven't seen any of this mandatory slaughter that you claim is essential for food production.

Weird huh?

[Abhaya]

Hey folks,

I just want to add a bit to this great debate.

Check out, if you feel like doing so, this amazing lecture by Gary Yourofsky.

Go to the 2 minutes mark to skip the introduction:

es6U00LMmC4

He´s got some very clever arguments.

I highly recommend this video...I know, it´s a long video, but it´s good.

Cheers,

Raf.

Well, thanks for sharing this amazing vid, Raf. My husband and I just watched it...now he has announced he's going vegan!

Looks like I'm gonna be on a big learning curve in the cooking department!!

I think I'll give it a whirl as well...why not?



Woohoo! So Awesome to hear :)

[Abhaya]

Ok target I said I wouldn't go into it but I lied. I just have to point out your desperate hypocritical shifting of the ground. Earlier you were trying to argue that plants felt as much pain possibly as humans. Now that that was squashed your going for the opposite extreme. Animals feel no pain they can't suffer at all. I mean really tell me you don't believe that. This would be the most saddening thing yet posted. :/

[GloriousPoetry]

Balance my friend Abaya, slaughter houses are created by huge corporations for big profits. This is greed beyond sustaining a balanced ecosystem. I've lived in a farm in Mexico and I understand that there is a balance in nature and it is not always pretty but it works for the planet.

[Abhaya]

Balance my friend Abaya, slaughter houses are created by huge corporations for big profits. This is greed beyond sustaining a balanced ecosystem. I've lived in a farm in Mexico and I understand that there is a balance in nature and it is not always pretty but it works.

See above post about farming :)
It can be very pretty

[panopticon]

However in glad that you ask about my farm experience. Actually I'm writing this from an ahimsa (cruelty free) dairy farm in Costa Rica that I spend at least 3 months of every year living at. Not to mention I have spent years of my life here in the past. Here we function around a small herd of cows. None of which we kill or ever plan to. Wouldn't be fair considering we couldn't exsist with out them. The two milkers provide our average community of 10 with almost more raw milk products then we can handle. We are training their two most recent calves to be trained oxen. All these cows plus the Bull and our other oxen are giving us a steady supply of fresh manure from which we have some amazingly lush gardens. From which we all survive( with out any meat :0) . We also have a methane digester from which we will soon be able to cook our veggies with.

Funny I spent all this time on the farm and haven't seen any of this mandatory slaughter that you claim is essential for food production.

Weird huh?

That's great Abhaya that you live 3 months of the year on a cruelty free dairy farm and I find it very interesting.

How many years has the ahimsa been running?
What do you do with the male calves when they get to adulthood or are they the ones used in the fields for tilling?
At what age do you separate the cow and calf or do you not do that?
How much milk does your farm sell or share freely?
You've said that the farm has 2 cows and a bull to supply milk and fertliser to the ahimsa but what is the number of cows in the farm herd for milk production?
Do you raise chickens there for eggs, manure, ground clearing, eating pests (eg grasshoppers), etc? If so what do you do with the rooster hatchlings or do you not have fertile eggs?
The digester is an excellent idea and they work great.
Do you use a large compost heap for hot water? They work great too.

How do you keep wildlife out of your gardens or is the ahimsa in a non-wildlife area or do you not bother and share the gardens produce with them?

I wasn't going to participate in this thread anymore after all the accusations but really found this interesting.
Thanks, in advance, for telling us about your experience.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[TargeT]

Ok target I said I wouldn't go into it but I lied. I just have to point out your desperate hypocritical shifting of the ground. Earlier you were trying to argue that plants felt as much pain possibly as humans. Now that that was squashed your going for the opposite extreme. Animals feel no pain they can't suffer at all. I mean really tell me you don't believe that. This would be the most saddening thing yet posted. :/

I prefer to follow the rules of grammar ;)

Pain is a physical sensation that often causes avoidance of the causation source.

Suffering is a mental state (often brought on by pain, but not solely) that is in essence a choice and perception based.

My mom has an excellent saying: Pain is mandatory, suffering optional

I guess it all depends on how you perceive the world, in a victim / fear based mentality or not.


I do NOT equate pain and suffering together, my Tattoos caused me pain, not suffering.

I have ongoing wrist injuries that cause me pain almost daily, but I do not suffer because of it.


PAIN is mandatory, Suffering Optional (think about it)

[WhiteFeather]

Blu fire going to have to call bs on your claim that you in particular need meat to survive. Maybe you believe that and maybe a doctor even told you that but... No not buying that one. And even if that's true does that then mean everyone should eat meat?

Also you keep falling back on the omnivore thing. Again while our jaw indicates that during our evolutionary past meat was part of our diets, this does not give reason to continue on said path forever. Current and more meaningful evolutionary leaps, such as the ability to reason, and thus the ability to live with out killing animals have far more weight then our evolutionary jaw structure.


It is not that require meat and particularly red meat to survive . . . . .My body requires a certain amount of red meat protein to be ultimately healthy.

You, my friend need to educate yourself much more on the anatomy and biological function of the human body.

I would suggest you start with amino acids and proteins, which are the building blocks of all life.

I would also suggest that regurgitating information from sources that are either ill informed or have an agenda are not supportive to your mission.

And in no way am I even remotely suggesting that all should eat meat.

On my organic farm in Kansas I worked very closely with many vegetarians and even vegan (bit more difficult) customers to fulfill the diet that they had chosen. Even to the point of keeping several hens separate from the rooster so he could not fertilize their eggs and therefore avoided the possibility that a chick embryo was growing in the eggs that were sold to the more hard core vegetarians


Blufire Quote "My body requires a certain amount of red meat protein to be ultimately healthy"

Blufire would you get more protein from red meat if you ate it raw much like animals do in the wild. Or do you have to cook it first so you could then eat it?

[WhiteFeather]

Hey Target this comment you posted made me feel a little uneasy to say the least. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54066-If-slaughter-houses-had-glass-walls....&p=613563&viewfull=1#post613563 "Pain and suffering of animals? I'd say the quality of life of most farm animals is pretty low in general, though their awareness level is so low it doesn't seem to matter."

[Abhaya]

Hey Target this comment you posted made me feel a little uneasy to say the least. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54066-If-slaughter-houses-had-glass-walls....&p=613563&viewfull=1#post613563 "Pain and suffering of animals? I'd say the quality of life of most farm animals is pretty low in general, though their awareness level is so low it doesn't seem to matter."

Thank you! I agree this comment is very scary :(.
I can't believe he really feels that though. At least I hope not

[TargeT]

Hey Target this comment you posted made me feel a little uneasy to say the least. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54066-If-slaughter-houses-had-glass-walls....&p=613563&viewfull=1#post613563 "Pain and suffering of animals? I'd say the quality of life of most farm animals is pretty low in general, though their awareness level is so low it doesn't seem to matter."

Thank you! I agree this comment is very scary :(.
I can't believe he really feels that though. At least I hope not


yes, I should have left it at just "suffering" pain is definitely felt.

My Chihuahua had a disintegrated hip joint that she lived with for years before symptoms developed (it was basically gone by the time we had surgery done to correct it) she was definitely different after the operation, more mobile, but no less or more (aside from the mobility) than the dog she was before.

Pain can limit physical action (I know this personally) Suffering is a mental limitation.

I could go ask for pain killers right now and pine about how miserable I am all the time, or I can (and do) accept my situation and work through it.

My mother works as a "pain management" specialist, (AKA prescribed drug addicts mostly) and a lot of my understanding on suffering has come from those addicts and their life stories and insights.

my point is: quit assigning human qualities to animals that are not capable of expressing them; this is not useful in your argument and is a logical fallacy (appeal to emotion).

[Abhaya]

However in glad that you ask about my farm experience. Actually I'm writing this from an ahimsa (cruelty free) dairy farm in Costa Rica that I spend at least 3 months of every year living at. Not to mention I have spent years of my life here in the past. Here we function around a small herd of cows. None of which we kill or ever plan to. Wouldn't be fair considering we couldn't exsist with out them. The two milkers provide our average community of 10 with almost more raw milk products then we can handle. We are training their two most recent calves to be trained oxen. All these cows plus the Bull and our other oxen are giving us a steady supply of fresh manure from which we have some amazingly lush gardens. From which we all survive( with out any meat :0) . We also have a methane digester from which we will soon be able to cook our veggies with.

Funny I spent all this time on the farm and haven't seen any of this mandatory slaughter that you claim is essential for food production.

Weird huh?

That's great Abhaya that you live 3 months of the year on a cruelty free dairy farm and I find it very interesting.

How many years has the ahimsa been running?
What do you do with the male calves when they get to adulthood or are they the ones used in the fields for tilling?
At what age do you separate the cow and calf or do you not do that?
How much milk does your farm sell or share freely?
You've said that the farm has 2 cows and a bull to supply milk and fertliser to the ahimsa but what is the number of cows in the farm herd for milk production?
Do you raise chickens there for eggs, manure, ground clearing, eating pests (eg grasshoppers), etc? If so what do you do with the rooster hatchlings or do you not have fertile eggs?
The digester is an excellent idea and they work great.
Do you use a large compost heap for hot water? They work great too.

How do you keep wildlife out of your gardens or is the ahimsa in a non-wildlife area or do you not bother and share the gardens produce with them?

I wasn't going to participate in this thread anymore after all the accusations but really found this interesting.
Thanks, in advance, for telling us about your experience.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Thank you for your questions :) . I would say that this being a debate thread I see no harm in letting accusations fly as long as they are on topic. And there is no direct unrelated insults to anyone. This is a fine line to be sure. But that's what makes a good debate. When we just put it all out there. That's why this one has been blowing up.

That being said, thank u you for the very warm and hostile free post even after I had some rather hostile although topic related posts towards you.

Right now we have two milking cows one adult oxen two oxen calfs and one bull. We don't have any chickens although we did want to get a few hens for scorpion control. Hasn't happened yet though. We separate the calves after some months and bring them in for milking only. All the cows have huge pasture lands to enjoy. As of right now we have use for all the milk that we produce. Most all our neighbors have their own cows, so they don't need our milk. We also have dogs to scare away some of the armadillos and lizards. But that's a losing battle :). We also have tons of fruit trees. Banana being the top producer at this time.

[Abhaya]

Hey Target this comment you posted made me feel a little uneasy to say the least. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54066-If-slaughter-houses-had-glass-walls....&p=613563&viewfull=1#post613563 "Pain and suffering of animals? I'd say the quality of life of most farm animals is pretty low in general, though their awareness level is so low it doesn't seem to matter."

Thank you! I agree this comment is very scary :(.
I can't believe he really feels that though. At least I hope not


yes, I should have left it at just "suffering" pain is definitely felt.

My Chihuahua had a disintegrated hip joint that she lived with for years before symptoms developed (it was basically gone by the time we had surgery done to correct it) she was definitely different after the operation, more mobile, but no less or more (aside from the mobility) than the dog she was before.

Pain can limit physical action (I know this personally) Suffering is a mental limitation.

I could go ask for pain killers right now and pine about how miserable I am all the time, or I can (and do) accept my situation and work through it.

My mother works as a "pain management" specialist, (AKA prescribed drug addicts mostly) and a lot of my understanding on suffering has come from those addicts and their life stories and insights.

my point is: quit assigning human qualities to animals that are not capable of expressing them; this is not useful in your argument and is a logical fallacy (appeal to emotion).


True there are some human qualities that we alone possess. For instance we can do soduko puzzles. Animals cannot. If you however think pain and suffering are among these qualities , then that's the kind of thought process that leads to bad things. Like .... Factory farming........ Again since you were arguing previously that plants just might feel as much pain and suffering as people, you are now forbidden from arguing that animals can't suffer . It's in the rule book somewhere sorry :/

[WhiteFeather]

Animals have emotion, and extreme awareness, consciousness and do show signs of it. Watch this,, its only 2:38 minutes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZuW7M4VbDs

[Abhaya]

Done for tonight. Go veggies go! :p

[bram]

I would just like to say that since I have stopped swatting mosquitoes, they have (almost) stopped biting me!!;)
8I5rtQKP85I

Love, bram

[panopticon]

That's great Abhaya that you live 3 months of the year on a cruelty free dairy farm and I find it very interesting.

How many years has the ahimsa been running?
What do you do with the male calves when they get to adulthood or are they the ones used in the fields for tilling?
At what age do you separate the cow and calf or do you not do that?
How much milk does your farm sell or share freely?
You've said that the farm has 2 cows and a bull to supply milk and fertliser to the ahimsa but what is the number of cows in the farm herd for milk production?
Do you raise chickens there for eggs, manure, ground clearing, eating pests (eg grasshoppers), etc? If so what do you do with the rooster hatchlings or do you not have fertile eggs?
The digester is an excellent idea and they work great.
Do you use a large compost heap for hot water? They work great too.

How do you keep wildlife out of your gardens or is the ahimsa in a non-wildlife area or do you not bother and share the gardens produce with them?

I wasn't going to participate in this thread anymore after all the accusations but really found this interesting.
Thanks, in advance, for telling us about your experience.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Thank you for your questions :) . I would say that this being a debate thread I see no harm in letting accusations fly as long as they are on topic. And there is no direct unrelated insults to anyone. This is a fine line to be sure. But that's what makes a good debate. When we just put it all out there. That's why this one has been blowing up.

That being said, thank u you for the very warm and hostile free post even after I had some rather hostile although topic related posts towards you.

Thank you for acknowledging that you have been hostile towards me.


Right now we have two milking cows one adult oxen two oxen calfs and one bull. We don't have any chickens although we did want to get a few hens for scorpion control. Hasn't happened yet though. We separate the calves after some months and bring them in for milking only. All the cows have huge pasture lands to enjoy. As of right now we use for all the milk on our own property. Most all our neighbors have their own cows, so they don't need our milk. We also have dogs to scare away some of the armadillos and lizards. But that's a losing battle :). We also have tons of fruit trees. Banana being the top producer at this time.

The definition of "dairy farm" must be different in Costa Rico.
In Australia 2 cows does not a dairy farm make. We call that a hobby farm or something similar.

As a question what do the dogs do to the wildlife when/if they catch it?
I wont let my dogs chase the wildlife cause of the damage they do...

Good to hear about the Banana's. Maybe its a banana plantation instead of a dairy farm?
I dunno.
I'm just trying to understand how you can call 2 cows a dairy farm.
Not trying to be rude but if there were even 10 cows I might be able to consider it a farm. At least then there would be 10 calves per year to figure out what to do with. Over just 5 years that would be 50 cattle @ 1 per year, say half are bulls, which would mean 25 bulls to train as oxen.

How long has it been in operation and how does it finance itself?
Again I'm not trying to be rude just asking questions so I can try to understand.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Abhaya]

Target I'm sorry to use you as an example here... But u stepped up to the plate so...

I made the point earlier, that meaties simply have not thought eating meat all the way through. For veggies it's a deeply thought out life philosophy (usually). And this is evident in their steadiness and firm foundation to their arguments. You for example have proven to me beyond a doubt , that before this thread you didn't have a truly thought out philosophy in regards to what you consume. That in fact, this thread made you defensive and made you start thinking about it more. You came up with the first logic that you thought might defeat us. That being that plants feel (so you say) as much as humans, therefor vegetarianism is no better, and we might as well eat meat anyway. Because killing plants is the same as killing a dolphin.... Then when that argument fell apart you later resorted to a new argument stating that animals feel minimal if any pain and suffering at all.
These two concepts cannot coexists in a personal philosophy. Some high realization in seeing the pure consciousness of plants, while also feeling animals are to numb and dumb to feel much of anything. These to thoughts cant coexist. You had to have either believed one of these and then had a sudden change of heart over the last day or so. Or you hadn't really put any real thought into either until this thread came about. both are simply defensive argument (new and desperate) trying to justify your choice to eat meat that we are attacking.

This is the normal reaction so i don't really blame you.

But I tell you to continue to think about it, as you now have at least begun to some extent, as you are on this thread. Think deeply and truly and make the right choice

[Abhaya]

That's great Abhaya that you live 3 months of the year on a cruelty free dairy farm and I find it very interesting.

How many years has the ahimsa been running?
What do you do with the male calves when they get to adulthood or are they the ones used in the fields for tilling?
At what age do you separate the cow and calf or do you not do that?
How much milk does your farm sell or share freely?
You've said that the farm has 2 cows and a bull to supply milk and fertliser to the ahimsa but what is the number of cows in the farm herd for milk production?
Do you raise chickens there for eggs, manure, ground clearing, eating pests (eg grasshoppers), etc? If so what do you do with the rooster hatchlings or do you not have fertile eggs?
The digester is an excellent idea and they work great.
Do you use a large compost heap for hot water? They work great too.

How do you keep wildlife out of your gardens or is the ahimsa in a non-wildlife area or do you not bother and share the gardens produce with them?

I wasn't going to participate in this thread anymore after all the accusations but really found this interesting.
Thanks, in advance, for telling us about your experience.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Thank you for your questions :) . I would say that this being a debate thread I see no harm in letting accusations fly as long as they are on topic. And there is no direct unrelated insults to anyone. This is a fine line to be sure. But that's what makes a good debate. When we just put it all out there. That's why this one has been blowing up.

That being said, thank u you for the very warm and hostile free post even after I had some rather hostile although topic related posts towards you.

Thank you for acknowledging that you have been hostile towards me.


Right now we have two milking cows one adult oxen two oxen calfs and one bull. We don't have any chickens although we did want to get a few hens for scorpion control. Hasn't happened yet though. We separate the calves after some months and bring them in for milking only. All the cows have huge pasture lands to enjoy. As of right now we use for all the milk on our own property. Most all our neighbors have their own cows, so they don't need our milk. We also have dogs to scare away some of the armadillos and lizards. But that's a losing battle :). We also have tons of fruit trees. Banana being the top producer at this time.

The definition of "dairy farm" must be different in Costa Rico.
In Australia 2 cows does not a dairy farm make. We call that a hobby farm or something similar.

As a question what do the dogs do to the wildlife when/if they catch it?
I wont let my dogs chase the wildlife cause of the damage they do...

Good to hear about the Banana's. Maybe its a banana plantation instead of a dairy farm?
I dunno.
I'm just trying to understand how you can call 2 cows a dairy farm.
Not trying to be rude but if there were even 10 cows I might be able to consider it a farm. At least then there would be 10 calves per year to figure out what to do with. Over just 5 years that would be 50 cattle @ 1 per year, say half are bulls, which would mean 25 bulls to train as oxen.

How long has it been in operation and how does it finance itself?
Again I'm not trying to be rude just asking questions so I can try to understand.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Call it a self sustainable community. :)
An example on the small scale of "low"(as I agree we can't be perfect) cruelty living. Maybe more pertinent then a large scale farm?

We can't be perfectly cruelty free. But we can make some serious effort. And choosing to eat meat is like not even getting up to try ;)

[panopticon]

Call it a self sustainable community. :)
An example on the small scale of "low"(as I agree we can't be perfect) cruelty living. Maybe more pertinent then a large scale farm?
We can't be perfectly cruelty free. But we can make some serious effort. And choosing to eat meat is like not even getting up to try ;)

Um, I have an understanding of self reliant communities and the basis of them is being able to finance themselves without much, if any, exterior financial aid.
How does the ahimsa finance itself?
This is really basic stuff that I'm asking and would be the very first question I would ask a group looking at setting up...
Next would probably be about internal group organisation and work allocation.
I'm sorry to ask again, but how long has the ahimsa been in operation. I get the feeling from your response at most 5 years (gauged on cattle numbers) but I hate guessing?
-- Pan

BTW are you saying that you set your dogs on wildlife and what do the dogs eat? I'm just getting more confused.

[161803398]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?SOJJf_zoPDs

[sleepy]

xxxxx xxxxx

[lunaflare]

if animals had choices and free will, they would not remain in slaughter-houses

[161803398]

Cow hides one of her calves after giving birth to twins:

http://www.globalanimal.org/2012/04/13/cow-proves-animals-love-think-and-act/71867/

Sophie's choice?

[panopticon]

I just got back in from helping a mate. Have to tell you all that I had a bit of a confrontation with some mung beans who had no regard whatsoever for their actions.
I was riding along following this "love mobile" (that's what was written on the bloody back) and the idiots hit a roo.
What did they do?
Nothing. They just kept on driving.
I stopped and had to finish it off cause its guts were all over the place and it was... Well I don't want to offend all these fine folks so I wont go into details.
Anyway, the road is a long gravel track and I knew where they were headed so I caught 'em up and they were having a pit stop. I pulled up and got off me bike and went over to 'em (they were still in the van).

I asked if they'd noticed the roo they'd hit and they said "no".

You know when you can tell people are full of it, well these nuggets stf where.
The front of the van had a dent in it, probably where they'd hit ,and I told 'em that it hadn't been dead and I had to finish it off so it wasn't in pain any more
What did the shrill in the passenger seat say? No "thank you", no "we're sorry".
She called me a murderer...

I gotta say that when they left they had a few more dents in that van...
They can report it to Steve if they like, I called him and let him know what had happened.
His response: "Bastards".
--Pan

[161803398]

Kingsford goes to the beach:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2346868/kingsford_goes_to_the_beach/

[161803398]

I was looking for a picture of a kangaroo but I found these tree roos from New Guinea

1998819989

[Lettherebelight]

This is the 'farm' where my teenage son works. It's run by our local council. They've only got one cow.

http://www.downtoearthfarm.org/


First day going vegan, in support of my husband who has experienced an epiphany of consciousness after seeing the Gary Yourofsky vid.

If all cows were milked by hand, as they should be, with respect and gratitude, I would do differently...

...but they aren't in most cases.

[bram]

There's a definite yin vs yang tone to this thread, which is rather interesting.

on the yin side we have the compassion and empathy for the suffering of animals, a leaning towards non violence and spirit, also a lot more female posters;

on the yang side we have the meat, the patriarchal arguments of practicality and survivalism, ideas that animal suffering is unimportant, that vegetarians are emptional and irrational; overwhelmingly more male posters, a lot of male logic and a certain amount of browbeating;

My call on this one (my opinion only you understand) is that we men as a whole need to be developing our female side more. It seems such a shame to leave 50% of our nature undeveloped.

Love to all (yin and yang), bram

[Katyani]

I think there is an addictive aspect to meat-eating. Some people seem addicted to the taste of flesh and blood. As with any addiction, rational arguments are not very effective. But there will be many meat-eaters reading this thread who are ready to take a closer look at the reasons behind their food choices. To begin exploring why it may not be a good idea to use another (once) living, sentient being as a building block for one's own physical existence. Perhaps even make the switch and be a vegetarian, at least for some time. Say, a year. What have you got to lose? At the very least, you'll be an experience richer.

Depending on how long you have been eating meat, there may be difficulties at first. Heavy densities, toxins, parasites and worms will be leaving your system. On the other side, there are rewards. Improvements in health, stamina, energy levels. You will even smell better! Kissing someone who has just eaten an apple is lovely. Had that person just eaten a hamburger..well, probably less so.
Walking around with corpses in various stages of decomposition in the digestive tract is just gross.

When I was five years old, I encountered a glass wall in the form of an older friend who was kind enough to tell me what 'meat' really is. Those are thinly sliced up pieces of baby cows. The 'blood' in blood pudding is just that, blood - from a pig. Those are birds' wings. That's a pig's butt. Butt?! Yes, people eat butts, hearts, eyes and tongues, and call them delicacies. I was horrified. What kind of place is this?

Later, in 7th grade, there was a biology lesson which included dissecting a cow's eye. I will aways remember that sad eye, staring back at me from the petri dish. I made the switch after that, and everything changed for the better. I became stronger, healthier, more vibrant. Some kind of veil lifted and I started to connect with life - Life - in deeper and more positive ways.

[Bo Atkinson]

I think that bodily sustenance in our current age will become harmony and no longer faked.
Facing our failed dominion, shock after shock if that is what it takes.
Those who evade higher harmonies will find blockages or suffer defeats.
Disharmony with plants and animals, is becoming secondary as we speak.
Our disharmony with minerals will collapse any stand we take.
We pollute the fresh air, with our backward materialistic traits.
We sleep in our own dumps and become what we hate.
We must learn from the microbes and ecosystems--
The ones which we thereby, automatically instate.
We must reorganize this all is a worldwide precipitation.
Somewhat like the alchemist tried to relate.
Let it be... harmony which we actually make.

[Abhaya]

Call it a self sustainable community. :)
An example on the small scale of "low"(as I agree we can't be perfect) cruelty living. Maybe more pertinent then a large scale farm?
We can't be perfectly cruelty free. But we can make some serious effort. And choosing to eat meat is like not even getting up to try ;)

Um, I have an understanding of self reliant communities and the basis of them is being able to finance themselves without much, if any, exterior financial aid.
How does the ahimsa finance itself?
This is really basic stuff that I'm asking and would be the very first question I would ask a group looking at setting up...
Next would probably be about internal group organisation and work allocation.
I'm sorry to ask again, but how long has the ahimsa been in operation. I get the feeling from your response at most 5 years (gauged on cattle numbers) but I hate guessing?
-- Pan

BTW are you saying that you set your dogs on wildlife and what do the dogs eat? I'm just getting more confused.

We have been around for 6 years. Our dogs are not trained to kill anything. These dog couldn't catch any of these lizards if there life depended on it. They are just there to try to scare them off. They eat a combination of dog food and our own left overs.

Now another thing we are not at a hundred percent self sustainability yet. Although that is our goal. I would say we are at 75% now. We are funded now though out side donations and also fund raising through members. I am actually about to go out to do a few months of fund raising my self in a weeks time.

I think we are getting a little off topic here though. Only point I really wanted to make is we don't kill the cows. We have another similar operation in northern Cali that has been around for 15 years.

[Fred Steeves]

Just an observation here, from someone who has been considering going vegetarian for some time now, and knows well the ins and outs of this periodic and tiresome debate. No one appreciates the ex smoker who gives the fake cough whenever near a lit cigarette, and the boys down the pub don't want to be preached to by their mate who has found Jesus, and insists that Satan lurks in every pint.

You know what people notice and respect? Someone who lives their truth, demonstrates it daily, would be happy to explain it, yet beats no one over the head with it.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

There is alot to say for this lifestyle in more than one way, and i was very impressed by the lecture of Gary, he was "bouncing" through it.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ __________

Some vegan "beef/V"cakes here.

www.VeganStrength.org
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _____________________


Vegan athletes, stamina upto three times higher, recovery time 5 times shorter.

At Yale, Professor Irving Fisher designed a series of tests to compare the stamina and strength of meat-eaters against that of vegetarians. He selected men from three groups: meat-eating athletes, vegetarian athletes, and vegetarian sedentary subjects. Fisher reported the results of his study in the Yale Medical Journal. His findings do not seem to lend a great deal of credibility to the popular prejudices that hold meat to be a builder of strength.

"Of the three groups compared, the...flesh-eaters showed far less endurance than the abstainers (vegetarians), even when the latter were leading a sedentary life."26

Overall, the average score of the vegetarians was over double the average score of meat-eaters, even though half of the vegetarians were sedentary people, while all of the meat-eaters tested were athletes. After analyzing all the factors that might have been involved in the results, Fisher concluded that:

"...the difference in endurance between the flesh-eaters and the abstainers (was due) entirely to the difference in their diet...There is strong evidence that a...non-flesh...diet is conducive to endurance."27

A comparable study was done by Dr. J. Ioteyko of the Academie de Medicine of Paris.28 Dr. Ioteyko compared the endurance of vegetarians and meat-eaters from all walks of life in a variety of tests. The vegetarians averaged two to three times more stamina than the meat-eaters. Even more remarkably, they took only one-fifth the time to recover from exhaustion compared to their meat-eating rivals.
Finnish distance runner Paavo Nurmi ca. 1925

In 1968, a Danish team of researchers tested a group of men on a variety of diets, using a stationary bicycle to measure their strength and endurance. The men were fed a mixed diet of meat and vegetables for a period of time, and then tested on the bicycle. The average time they could pedal before muscle failure was 114 minutes. These same men at a later date were fed a diet high in meat, milk and eggs for a similar period and then re-tested on the bicycles. On the high meat diet, their pedaling time before muscle failure dropped dramatically—to an average of only 57 minutes. Later, these same men were switched to a strictly vegetarian diet, composed of grains, vegetables and fruits, and then tested on the bicycles. The lack of animal products didn't seem to hurt their performance—they pedaled an average of 167 minutes.29

Wherever and whenever tests of this nature have been done, the results have been similar. This does not lend a lot of support to the supposed association of meat with strength and stamina.

Doctors in Belgium systematically compared the number of times vegetarians and meat-eaters could squeeze a grip-meter. The vegetarians won handily with an average of 69, whist the meat-eaters averaged only 38. As in all other studies which have measured muscle recovery time, here, too, the vegetarians bounced back from fatigue far more rapidly than did the meat-eaters.30

I know of many other studies in the medical literature which report similar findings. But I know of not a single one that has arrived at different results. As a result, I confess, it has gotten rather difficult for me to listen seriously to the meat industry proudly proclaiming "meat gives strength" in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______________________

Another link

www.organicathlete.org
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ______________________

[778 neighbour of some guy]

There's a definite yin vs yang tone to this thread, which is rather interesting.

on the yin side we have the compassion and empathy for the suffering of animals, a leaning towards non violence and spirit, also a lot more female posters;

on the yang side we have the meat, the patriarchal arguments of practicality and survivalism, ideas that animal suffering is unimportant, that vegetarians are emptional and irrational; overwhelmingly more male posters, a lot of male logic and a certain amount of browbeating;

My call on this one (my opinion only you understand) is that we men as a whole need to be developing our female side more. It seems such a shame to leave 50% of our nature undeveloped.

Love to all (yin and yang), bram

I have have read all the posts on the thread and see why you make this comment, however nobody needs to ying my yang or yang my ying to convince me or look into the subject that started the thread, animal cruelty is just plain wrong, slaughter houses are places of terror, eating however is a need you cannot get around unless you have an all overpowering urge to become a breatharian. And nutritionwise we have plenty of less bloody options that are much more beneficial/healthy to us.

On occasion i like steak, i consider dropping of the meat wagon now, since i eat a lot of veggies and superfoods anyway and dont feel like i am missing out at all, the Gary Yourofski lecture, was a good one!!

Good enough to make STICKY, if not for the animal cruelty factor, than stickie it for the health factor, since this DOES have to mattter to everybody, even on the short term.

[panopticon]

I just got back in from helping a mate. Have to tell you all that I had a bit of a confrontation with some mung beans who had no regard whatsoever for their actions.
I was riding along following this "love mobile" (that's what was written on the bloody back) and the idiots hit a roo.
What did they do?
Nothing. They just kept on driving.
I stopped and had to finish it off cause its guts were all over the place and it was... Well I don't want to offend all these fine folks so I wont go into details.
Anyway, the road is a long gravel track and I knew where they were headed so I caught 'em up and they were having a pit stop. I pulled up and got off me bike and went over to 'em (they were still in the van).

I asked if they'd noticed the roo they'd hit and they said "no".

You know when you can tell people are full of it, well these nuggets stf where.
The front of the van had a dent in it, probably where they'd hit ,and I told 'em that it hadn't been dead and I had to finish it off so it wasn't in pain any more
What did the shrill in the passenger seat say? No "thank you", no "we're sorry".
She called me a murderer...

I gotta say that when they left they had a few more dents in that van...
They can report it to Steve if they like, I called him and let him know what had happened.
His response: "Bastards".
--Pan

Just to clear up what happened this afternoon with the mung beans so my distress at their actions can be understood a bit better.

After I dispatched the roo I rode off after them.

About a kilometre down the road was "little wing" (yeah, I know, Hendrix can take the blame) one of the juvenile Wedge-tail eagle we'd all been watching grow up.
She had been hit by a car and was dead.

While there is no way that I can be sure who had done it everyone out here knew her and used to stop to give her time to fly off from the road kill. In Tasmania it's illegal to shift road kill as it is a main source of food for Tassie Devils, Quoll's, Eagles, Hawks etc. When I asked them about the roo I also asked about her and that was when they got aggressive. Wedge-tail Eagles are a protected species in Tasmania and there are hefty fines for killing one, not to mention imagine how they'd explain that to their mates...

When they got so aggressive with me I knew that the reason was not to do with the roo, they were probably in shock and terrified that someone would find out they had killed her (mind you a big old hairy mountain man/bikie pulling up probably didn't help matters). They had probably pulled over to recover from the shock/horror of what they'd done. They were going pretty fast on the gravel considering they didn't know the road. I was back from them a ways 'cause of all the dust but clearly saw them hit the roo. I can only guess as to what was going on in the cab of that van after that roo so they probably didn't see her 'til it was too late.

Anyway, I recognised the woman was not screaming at me she was screaming at herself, and the bloke, but just let her carry on yelling abuse for a bit. They were expecting a reaction from me so I kneed the door and tapped the front (just to even up the dents you understand). They then toddled off in a cloud of dust, with her still screaming abuse, and will probably tell their friends about their lucky escape in the wilds of Tasmania where they fended off a vicious old bikie who was probably on speed, crack and pissed to the eye balls and wielding a *insert object* that he hit the car with ("see here's the dent, we were sooooo lucky to escape").

Yeah, that's me. I'm a real scary character.

As my Dad used to say "There's none as strange as folk".
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[panopticon]

Call it a self sustainable community. :)
An example on the small scale of "low"(as I agree we can't be perfect) cruelty living. Maybe more pertinent then a large scale farm?
We can't be perfectly cruelty free. But we can make some serious effort. And choosing to eat meat is like not even getting up to try ;)

Um, I have an understanding of self reliant communities and the basis of them is being able to finance themselves without much, if any, exterior financial aid.
How does the ahimsa finance itself?
This is really basic stuff that I'm asking and would be the very first question I would ask a group looking at setting up...
Next would probably be about internal group organisation and work allocation.
I'm sorry to ask again, but how long has the ahimsa been in operation. I get the feeling from your response at most 5 years (gauged on cattle numbers) but I hate guessing?
-- Pan

BTW are you saying that you set your dogs on wildlife and what do the dogs eat? I'm just getting more confused.

We have been around for 6 years. Our dogs are not trained to kill anything. These dog couldn't catch any of these lizards if there life depended on it. They are just there to try to scare them off. They eat a combination of dog food and our own left overs.

Now another thing we are not at a hundred percent self sustainability yet. Although that is our goal. I would say we are at 75% now. We are funded now though out side donations and also fund raising through members. I am actually about to go out to do a few months of fund raising my self in a weeks time.

I think we are getting a little off topic here though. Only point I really wanted to make is we don't kill the cows. We have another similar operation in northern Cali that has been around for 15 years.

Sounds like a nice operation you've got there.
Best of luck with it.

[GloriousPoetry]

Living on a farm and waking up to a group of chickens being slaughtered by hungry coyotes or sheep been attacked by a hungry wolf. Nature is not always pretty.

[Abhaya]

Just an observation here, from someone who has been considering going vegetarian for some time now, and knows well the ins and outs of this periodic and tiresome debate. No one appreciates the ex smoker who gives the fake cough whenever near a lit cigarette, and the boys down the pub don't want to be preached to by their mate who has found Jesus, and insists that Satan lurks in every pint.

You know what people notice and respect? Someone who lives their truth, demonstrates it daily, would be happy to explain it, yet beats no one over the head with it.

Agreed nobody likes that guy. Some times you need
That jerk though in a debate thread like this one. If everyone
Is going to be mellow who is going to get riled up, do some
Research and bring up some additional good points. It's possible that
The orginal post may have just gotten 30 likes by us veggies and meat
Dudes may have decided to just conveniently skip the thread. In stead we
Have 10 pages in 2 days worth of amazing points. Tell me that
Would have happened other wise. Sorry if ur feelings are hurt. While
I usually don't take this role. I'm passionate about this issue.
And glad to be the jerk of the thread. Muhahah :p


Also this is after all a thread on the subject.... Not a private bar room with the patriots game on. :)

[modwiz]

Living on a farm and waking up to a group of chickens being slaughtered by hungry coyotes or sheep been attacked by a hungry wolf. Nature is not always pretty.

Sleeping in a tent in a forest for 6 months at a time and hearing the animals go about their nocturnal business is quite an experience. Howls and shrieks pierce the night quiet. Struggles abate and the peace returns again to repeat the cycle.

Nothing to do with this thread however.

[Wind]

Reasons for me being mostly vegetarian (I still do sometimes eat fish) these days:

- I do not want to support industrialised cruelty.
- My mind works better when I don't eat heavy meat.
- My body feels lighter (not just physically).

It is not up to me to judge anyone. Do what feels right in your heart. That's what I'm doing.

[GloriousPoetry]

And seeing dead people does have to do with this thread? If you backtrack and follow my posts on this thread you'll know why I posted it. I have decided that this is the last time I am responding to this topic on any thread again. I agree with Fred it's a waste of time to debate over a topic that is not spiritually empowering....at least not spiritually empowering for me.

[TargeT]

There is alot to say for this lifestyle in more than one way, and i was very impressed by the lecture of Gary, he was "bouncing" through it.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ __________

Some vegan "beef/V"cakes here.

www.VeganStrength.org
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _____________________


Vegan athletes, stamina upto three times higher, recovery time 5 times shorter.__

Studies are.... Interesting, are they not (BTW, I HIGHLY doubt the above study, it was not conducted well on brief examination, no double blinds, no ballanced test groupings (where was the seditary meat eating group?) I'm sure there were many other flaws; I stopped looking at those)

some links to ballance the argument


Long-Term Bad Effects of Vegetarian Diets
Whichever diet you have, if it is unbalanced, you are at risk of not consuming a sufficient amount of nutrients that your body needs to maintain proper health. An unbalanced vegetarian diet may be at risk for certain conditions. However, this is not to discourage you from being a vegetarian, because all of the potential bad effects are preventable. The American Dietetic Association strongly recommends a well-planned vegetarian diet for preventing diseases and optimal, overall health.

Iron Deficiency Anemia
Iron deficiency anemia is a common condition and results in a low amount of red blood cells in your blood. According to the MayoClinic.com, red blood cells provide oxygen to your body's tissues, which makes you energetic and your skin looks like its natural color. Some symptoms include fatigue, shortness of breath, dizziness, pale skin, brittle nails, tongue inflammation, cravings to eat dirt, starch or ice, irregular heartbeat and tingling legs. Dr. J.D. Decuypere, a chiropractic physician focusing on natural medicine, states that vegetarians should eat twice the amount of iron to compensate for not gaining it from meat, which equates to 30 mg for teenage and pre-menopausal females and 20 mg for males. In addition, dairy blocks the absorption of iron from 30 to 50 percent. You don't have to worry about iron deficiency anemia if you eat iron-rich meals without dairy and eat meals containing dairy a few hours apart from your meals with iron. If you do get an iron deficiency, you can eat cooked spinach for a quick dose of iron as it contains 15 mg of iron per 100 calories. It is important to periodically monitor the nutrients in your body by having a metabolic blood test.

Vitamin B-12 Deficiency Anemia
This type of anemia is rare, but more likely in vegetarians. It is caused from a severe lack of vitamin B12, which is found in meat, eggs and milk. If you are a lacto-ovo vegetarian, you eat eggs and dairy, so you have a less likely chance of a vitamin B12 deficiency. If you are a vegan and do not eat eggs and dairy, you should consume vitamin B12 through fortified non-dairy milk, nutritional yeast, breakfast cereal or a "whole food" vitamin. Vitamin B12 anemia limits the production of red blood cells. Symptoms include sore tongue and mouth, pale or yellowish skin, diarrhea, weight loss, tingling hands and feet, muscle weakness and confusion or forgetfulness. MayoClinic.com states that you can usually correct this anemia with vitamin B12 supplements and incorporating more into your diet. According to the Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine, the recommended amount of vitamin B12 is 2.4 micrograms per day for adults.

Zinc Deficiency
Zinc is found in meat and non-meat sources, so a deficiency is preventable if you are a vegetarian. As noted by Dr. Decuypere, vegetarians need to consume twice as much zinc as non-vegetarians. Vegetarian sources of zinc are peas, nuts, beans and whole grains. Dr. Decuypere suggests a daily zinc intake of 24 mg if you are female and 30 mg if you are male. Only take zinc supplements under a health-care professional's recommendation. A long-term zinc deficiency could cause poor night vision, a reduction in your taste and smell functions, a decrease in immunity to infections, candida, slowed wound-healing and a poorly developed reproductive organs in babies and children.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/272373-long-term-bad-effects-of-vegetarian-diets/




Why vegetarianism is bad for you and the environment
It is my understanding that most vegetarians or vegans do it mainly for the environment or because they don’t like the idea of killing or mistreating animals.

Those principles are very noble, but I’ll explain why they often don’t make any sense if you think about the bigger picture. I wish I had this kind of information before jumping on a raw food diet of only fruits, vegetables and nuts a couple of years ago and greatly compromising my health.

The first big point I’d like to make is that I’m totally against animal cruelty and I think that the Paleo diet principles align very well with happy and well treated animals. Eating animals that have been well treated, well fed and let free to graze on pastures all day long will also be better for your health because the fat content will be much higher in Omega-3 and you will get the best quality protein without the traces of hormones and antibiotics of factory raised animals.

Who are we as a species, after all, to decide that we should break the natural food-chain? Nature works this way, so we shouldn’t try to mess with the natural order of things. Unfortunately, in order for one living organism to live, another has to die. It’s the natural circle of life and death.

Vegetarians and vegans have to get the bulk of their calories from other sources than meat and often end up eating larger portions of soy, wheat or other grain based products. Tofu, soy milk, breads, pastas, rice, … Those products are toxic and lead to a high carbohydrate load which could lead to chronically high insulin levels, weight gain and diabetes in the long run.

Of course, many vegetarians will instead lose weight, but my understanding is that they miss some highly bio-available meat protein and a lot of the nutrients available in much greater quantity in meat in a form that’s easily absorbed like iron or copper. Our digestive system is short and can’t digest cellulose and a more efficient digestive system is probably what gave us the chance to develop the bigger brain we enjoy today. Eating more nutrient-dense foods like meat and animal fat leaves more energy for other processes to happen.

Most herbivores have to eat slowly all day long and have a digestive system to digest cellulose by a fermentation process. This job often requires more than one stomach. Comparatively, most carnivores can eat more infrequently and will stay well fed for a much longer period of time after eating, This is a good thing because they can survive for a couple of days if they don’t make any kills for a while.

Next up is the fact that what’s destroying the environment more than anything right now is our industrial farming practices and especially the big mono-cultures like wheat, corn and soy. Agriculture is the industry that consumes the most oil if you think about all the machinery used and food transportation needed. Therefore, the importance of eating locally produced meat and locally grown vegetables and fruits, when available, is huge.

One great thing is that most meat produced naturally will come from local farmers either from your local butcher, your farmer’s market or directly from the farm if you choose to buy in bulk. The big advantage of this last option is that you’ll get the best quality and environmentally friendly meat for much cheaper per pound then grocery bought meat.

http://paleodietlifestyle.com/vegetarianism-bad-environment/


Twenty-Two Reasons Not to Go Vegetarian
http://www.westonaprice.org/vegetarianism-and-plant-foods/not-to-go-vegetarian



Vegetarianism vs. Non-vegetarianism
There has always been a raging controversy about which is better: vegetarianism or non-vegetarianism. While Vedic texts and many other spiritual scriptures advocate being vegetarian, this is based on certain principles such as the laws of karma and the modes of living. People who do not believe in these obviously do not follow any of them. And of course, there are people who have no choice in the matter as they reside in areas that have more animals than plants. They’re forced to live off meat and hence go for the kill.



Scientifically speaking, non-vegetarians hardly suffer from deficiencies because meat, both red as well as white, is a rich source of proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. Essential minerals like calcium and iron are also found in abundance in the animal sources of food. The only thing lacking is fiber. However, research studies have shown that meat-eaters have an increased tendency to suffer from constipation, hypercholesterolemia, various inflammatory pathologies, and even gastrointestinal cancers. This happens because when meat is being digested, the amount of toxins liberated is far greater than that released during the digestion of vegetarian foods.



Pure vegetarians, on the other hand, tend to suffer from protein deficiencies; more so, if they do not consume eggs, which are biologically complete proteins. Vitamin B12 deficiency is also common amongst them and needs to be supplemented through nutraceuticals in a number of cases. Vegetarians find it very difficult to gain muscle mass in spite of working out for hours in the gym, unless they consume whey or soy proteins regularly. There is also a belief that meat eaters are more aggressive as compared to the vegetarians, but there are no clinical studies to support this.



So, as always, the middle path seems to be best, except for those who are pure vegetarian for religious or spiritual reasons. Such people need to be well read and better informed so that they can ensure that they can get all their essential nutrients through plant sources or supplements. Eating eggs and fish not more than three times in a week and chicken or red meat once or twice weekly is alright for the average person who doesn’t mind being omnivorous. Whether one likes it or not, fruits, vegetables, and wholegrain cereals and pulses must be consumed everyday to stay healthy. Sea-food eaters tend to have a higher chance of suffering from food allergies for unknown reasons; hence, they need to be careful before trying something new.
http://www.healthizen.com/blog/index.php/general/vegetarianism-nonvegetarianism/


so again, unless you are going to deny your own physological make up that was designed to be an omnivore, then it is clear that we were meant to eat both plants and animals.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

Point taken, you can google the following things too Target, chlorella, spirulina, hemp seeds, chia, maca, fermented butter oil, Sole ( so-lay, this is important 84 minerals in it), wheatgrass, barleygrass , this is not meant to become a cock fight my friend, i do not judge you for that, nowhere i said i did, when you are done googling please tell me what nutrients i am missing, i feel pretty good btw, i am not a vegetarian, but i did do some research on nutritional values and compounds and i think a diet can be complete without meat.

For iron, i'll chew on a nail, for zinc, a gutter;)

[RMorgan]

Hey TargeT,

Mate, these quoted articles are just plain wrong.

It´s completely possible to have a terrific diet as a vegan.

Just check out this huge list of vegan athletes:

http://www.greatveganathletes.com/

You can argue that they take vegetable protein supplements, but hey, show me a single meat eating athlete that doesn´t take protein supplements as well.

And "Scientifically speaking, non-vegetarians hardly suffer from deficiencies"? Come on man...Go to a drug store; They have entire sectors dedicated to nutrient supplementation, and I assure you that they are not for their vegan customers.

I´m a living proof that vegetarian diet really works. I´ve been a vegetarian (I´m not vegan because I eat cheese once in a while, but I will be) for a decade and all my blood tests are simply perfect, including iron, B12, zinc and everything else.

I rarely, get sick, compared to my meat eating friends and family members and, when I used to practice sports a lot, I used to gain muscle mass pretty fast.

Anyway, eating meat is not that bad for health, as long as you eat organic meat (not fed with hormones and antibiotics). As long as you have a balanced diet in terms of nutrients,your food comes from reliable organic sources and you eat red meat in moderation, I´m sure you´ll be very healthy.

Cheers,

Raf.

[TargeT]

Point taken, you can google the following things too Target, chlorella, spirulina, hemp seeds, chia, maca, fermented butter oil, Sole ( so-lay, this is important 84 minerals in it), wheatgrass, barleygrass , this is not meant to become a cock fight my friend, i do not judge you for that, nowhere i said i did, when you are done googling please tell me what nutrients i am missing, i feel pretty good btw, i am not a vegetarian, but i did do some research on nutritional values and compounds and i think a diet can be complete without meat.

For iron, i'll chew on a nail, for zinc, a gutter;)

Zinc is pretty darn important, especialy during pregnancy (I urge ANY one that is pregnant to not put their baby at risk with veganism!) our bodies have no specialized zinc storage system so continual intake of zinc is important!

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Zinc-HealthProfessional/


I take many of these supplements (off and on) along with my ATTEMPT at a paleo diet (primal would be more accurate raw meats, raw veggies, raw fruits, and raw nuts (raw, raw raw!)) our digestive tracks are just more efficient at extracting nutrients from highly bio-available sources, which meats (and ESPECIALLY meat fats) are. so you'll have to take large amounts of supplements to counter act that for some things.

I've never said it's not possible or that veggie only is a bad thing, I am simply saying make your own choice and don't force it on others nor anchor argument on subjects that are hardly understood (such as the conscious levels of animals, plants or even humans, suffering, pain levels, all subjects we at best are postulating on).

I've gotten a lot of feed back from passionate supporters of veggism, which is fine, I've even been "browbeated" and it's been insinuated that I (and others ) have a dark heart and am compassionless. I have simply tried to shed light on the YANG of this topic while the YIN has been pushed (or visa versa).

I believe in moderation and balance, this is what I am trying to uphold through casually thought out logic and a modicum of effort.

Take it for what you will, I don't like the abuse I see in this thread by some against fellow humans, leveraging guilt trips and emotional manipulation is akin to mental rape in my mind and I won't stand for it.




I´ve been a vegetarian (I´m not vegan because I eat cheese once in a while, but I will be) for a decade and all my blood tests are simply perfect, including iron, B12, zinc and everything else.

your list of athletes is so short it falls WELL with in the statistical boundaries of no consequence.

Also

you are 29.

case closed ;)

(let me know how it goes after your 30's when your body is in it's "down hill" phase, you are still on the upswing (though close to the end) and can do reckless (not saying veganism is reckless for someone that supplements and is intelligent about it) things as much as you choose, enjoy it while you have it!)





POINT AGAIN:

The middle road is our natural state unless we force duality

Quantum phsycis has proven this again and again, here is a recent study which is fascinating:
Quantum shadows, the mystery of matter deepens:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54101-Quantum-shadows-The-mystery-of-matter-deepens

[778 neighbour of some guy]

case closed

?


I've never said it's not possible or that veggie only is a bad thing, I am simply saying make your own choice and don't force it on others nor anchor argument on subjects that are hardly understood (such as the conscious levels of animals, plants or even humans, suffering, pain levels, all subjects we at best are postulating on).

How is your counterargument NOT anchoring then, i liked the video, one could for example not like the dudes style, he had some good energy though, i too still eat meat Target, i just noticed feeling a lot lighter and brighter when not eating it and have more energy, i also live in Holland the land the size of a fly turd on the world map, and in an appartment, no garden, no hunting, no wildlife here, no guns here, i have to weigh my options when i choose my diet and especcially thinking of an economic crisis ( i dont believe shops are going to be empty, i think money will become worthless and the effect would be same as an empty store, no dinner), so i research things that give me the most bang for my buck and i did not end up with meat, i cannot hunt and even if I could and hardly anything to shoot could, no guns allowed. So i am forced to look for alternatives and the alternatives are good, just good and complete, the best thing i ever discovered is sprouting, if its a seed, bean or living in a hull and is not a boat, it can be sprouted and is almost a complete foodsource on its own when in need, does not require soil, garden, sunlight, just a container and some water.

I dont like my yang to be yinged or vice versa any more then you do when not given the choice, i think we are more alike then you think my friend, i agree this is all about balance, there are more ways then one to achieve this balance though.

I am 41 btw and doing pretty good.

[panopticon]

Anyway, eating meat is not that bad for health, as long as you eat organic meat (not fed with hormones and antibiotics). As long as you have a balanced diet in terms of nutrients,your food comes from reliable organic sources and you eat red meat in moderation, I´m sure you´ll be very healthy.

Yet again we agree my friend.

[TargeT]

case closed

?


I've never said it's not possible or that veggie only is a bad thing, I am simply saying make your own choice and don't force it on others nor anchor argument on subjects that are hardly understood (such as the conscious levels of animals, plants or even humans, suffering, pain levels, all subjects we at best are postulating on).

How is your counterargument NOT anchoring then, i liked the video, one could for example not like the dudes style, he had some good energy though, i too still eat meat Target, i just noticed feeling a lot lighter and brighter when not eating it and have more energy, i also live in Holland the land the size of a fly turd on the world map, and in an appartment, no garden, no hunting, no wildlife here, no guns here, i have to weigh my options when i choose my diet and especcially thinking of an economic crisis ( i dont believe shops are going to be empty, i think money will become worthless and the effect would be same as an empty store, no dinner), so i research things that give me the most bang for my buck and i did not end up with meat, i cannot hunt and even if I could and hardly anything to shoot could, no guns allowed. So i am forced to look for alternatives and the alternatives are good, just good and complete, the best thing i ever discovered is sprouting, if its a seed, bean or living in a hull and is not a boat, it can be sprouted and is almost a complete foodsource on its own when in need, does not require soil, garden, sunlight, just a container and some water.

I dont like my yang to be yinged or vice versa any more then you do when not given the choice, i think we are more alike then you think my friend, i agree this is all about balance, there are more ways then one to achieve this balance though.

I am 41 btw and doing pretty good.


I don't think we are un- alike ;) I don't feel any contention here, I just like rooting for the underdog and this was a feeding frenzy of veganism, so I jumped in to help defend the poor natural/historical eating people that are / were being demonized.

soundsn like you've thought out a very good situational diet, just as you should; I agree with your logic (though honestly were I you I would look a LOT more into foraging and natural local food sources, mushrooms and roots etc that grow in the forest, I highly doubt there are abundant amounts of "veggies" as we are usedto from the store growing naturally in your area so keep that in mind with your idea of not being able to hunt).

I do own a few guns, but also a bow and arrow, that is a very viable defense / food gathering tool (especially when used to fish! I want to fish with a bow so bad! it's mostly illegal here (apparently too efficient.. haha)).

Another thread related to this one (and the true motivation I posted in this thread originally, though I think I fell short and only added to the division).......

Divided we fall :
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54195-Divided-We-Fall

[778 neighbour of some guy]

case closed

?


I've never said it's not possible or that veggie only is a bad thing, I am simply saying make your own choice and don't force it on others nor anchor argument on subjects that are hardly understood (such as the conscious levels of animals, plants or even humans, suffering, pain levels, all subjects we at best are postulating on).

How is your counterargument NOT anchoring then, i liked the video, one could for example not like the dudes style, he had some good energy though, i too still eat meat Target, i just noticed feeling a lot lighter and brighter when not eating it and have more energy, i also live in Holland the land the size of a fly turd on the world map, and in an appartment, no garden, no hunting, no wildlife here, no guns here, i have to weigh my options when i choose my diet and especcially thinking of an economic crisis ( i dont believe shops are going to be empty, i think money will become worthless and the effect would be same as an empty store, no dinner), so i research things that give me the most bang for my buck and i did not end up with meat, i cannot hunt and even if I could and hardly anything to shoot could, no guns allowed. So i am forced to look for alternatives and the alternatives are good, just good and complete, the best thing i ever discovered is sprouting, if its a seed, bean or living in a hull and is not a boat, it can be sprouted and is almost a complete foodsource on its own when in need, does not require soil, garden, sunlight, just a container and some water.

I dont like my yang to be yinged or vice versa any more then you do when not given the choice, i think we are more alike then you think my friend, i agree this is all about balance, there are more ways then one to achieve this balance though.

I am 41 btw and doing pretty good.


I don't think we are un- alike ;) I don't feel any contention here, I just like rooting for the underdog and this was a feeding frenzy of veganism, so I jumped in to help defend the poor natural/historical eating people that are / were being demonized.

soundsn like you've thought out a very good situational diet, just as you should; I agree with your logic (though honestly were I you I would look a LOT more into foraging and natural local food sources, mushrooms and roots etc that grow in the forest, I highly doubt there are abundant amounts of "veggies" as we are usedto from the store growing naturally in your area so keep that in mind with your idea of not being able to hunt).

I do own a few guns, but also a bow and arrow, that is a very viable defense / food gathering tool (especially when used to fish! I want to fish with a bow so bad! it's mostly illegal here (apparently too efficient.. haha)).

Another thread related to this one (and the true motivation I posted in this thread originally, though I think I fell short and only added to the division).......

Divided we fall :
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54195-Divided-We-Fall

I have read Freds OP on his thread and he is right about the possiblitiy of getting divided, i however think this is not the case at all, Avalon is a playground for ideas, opinions and sharing information, this was just another subject and we played with it each and everyone from his/her perspective, just like any other subject.

The tension in general is building however, everybody feels there is something coming, even the sun has not been out for 7 days here now, i feel it.

You have guns, bows and arrows dude, you are no underdog by my standards bwahahaha, sometimes i envy you people on that continent of yours, you may have problems, but you can go places when the poo spills out off the loo, defend yourself, make a stand, fetch dinner on legs, hide/play in the woods we here in europe however ( at least Holland), are screwed, some gas comes out of the ground here and there and a few oilriggs are scattered around, all can be taken out in one swoop and were are seriously ****ed, no heat, no transport, no food, no nothing, i took care of dinner and heat allready, I do own a fishing rod ( MINI pen rod) and i will eat the fish too, thats about all i can do, waking people up, no way, i tried it, blank stares and the attention span of a mosquito are all i saw, never doing that again.

And T, if you want to some hefty fishing, buy some speedhooks and automatic fishing reels ( YOYO'S) cheap and effective and stand alone,( prolly bad thread to say this but hey, crisisfishing eh).

[panopticon]

i also live in Holland the land the size of a fly turd on the world map, and in an appartment, no garden, no hunting, no wildlife here, no guns here, i have to weigh my options when i choose my diet and especcially thinking of an economic crisis ( i dont believe shops are going to be empty, i think money will become worthless and the effect would be same as an empty store, no dinner), so i research things that give me the most bang for my buck and i did not end up with meat, i cannot hunt and even if I could and hardly anything to shoot could, no guns allowed. So i am forced to look for alternatives and the alternatives are good, just good and complete, the best thing i ever discovered is sprouting, if its a seed, bean or living in a hull and is not a boat, it can be sprouted and is almost a complete foodsource on its own when in need, does not require soil, garden, sunlight, just a container and some water.


In your situation I may well look at vegetarianism as an ethical choice.
I would also look at seeing if there was a local organic farmer who I could get to know (though I don't know about the Netherlands and the lack of farm land there may mean that's not possible).
Different situations, and cultural practices, produce different solutions.

[TargeT]

And T, if you want to some hefty fishing, buy some speedhooks and automatic fishing reels ( YOYO'S) cheap and effective and stand alone,( prolly bad thread to say this but hey, crisisfishing eh).

Where I live hefty fishing is done via this:

http://www.wildnatureimages.com/images%202/040627-017..jpg

you can end up harveting around 200-300 fish a day when the runs are good, but Alaska is a land of abundance where wild life is concerned (and probably 10000000000 times larger than holland) so we get unique opertunities.

I am moving to the virgin islands soon (if all goes as planned) so I will take up (again) spear fishing and free diving.

http://caribbeanwaterman.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Tobago-Freedive-Spearfishing-Challenge-2010-121sm.jpg

[778 neighbour of some guy]

In your situation I may well look at vegetarianism as an ethical choice.
I would also look at seeing if there was a local organic farmer who I could get to know (though I don't know about the Netherlands and the lack of farm land there may mean that's not possible).
Different situations, and cultural practices, produce different solutions.

In the fields, cows, sheds and barns with pigs and chickens, the rest greenhouses, potatoes, and privately owned farmhouses, and lots of urbanisation) i say whoever lives in the country is lucky, on the other hand, shtf, and everybody runs to the farms, they will be out of whatever soon too, and vegetarian is not just an ethical option, a friend of mine is a natural veggie, from birth, never touched meat, doesnt like it, doesnt care for it, just ignores it, and does fine, no issues regarding health and is becoming an old fart just like me, for me its practical and if it saves some cows a hard life, even better.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

How the hell are you going to fit that fish in your juicer?;)

[sineck]

thanks, for your post, just want to put out a few thoughts out there, these are personal and i have seen them with my own eyes, my mother was a vegetarian her entire life, however, the ability to properly function in her years slowly became null, arthritis for one, she lost an incredible amount of muscle mass, weight issues were very prominent, i saw her weight loss and it was not healthy, her loss of sight increased, her red blood count decreased, she became allergic to almost everything that she had previously consumed, she could not eat soy, nor breads, nor lactose, and the list goes on, and i mean that list was huge, and this was without any ailments,I mean she honestly had nothing that would have caused any of these traits, she aged and looked at least ten years older than my father, now, im not stating that her being a vegetarian caused any of these things, all im stating or asking is what then caused her demise? i agree that we should respect everyones decisions on this matter, and not look at others as heathens for their consumption of meat, i have seen many comments and many pros and cons in this matter, ive even seen spirituality mentioned, and i do believe it has much to say about a person in the way they comment on the lives of others, or trying to lead someone to believe in the way that you do, life is very simple to me, be honest with yourself and others, treat all with respect and kindness, become love and treat those that you love with the same love that this universe has instilled in you. when we look at the big picture, all of this gets in the way from the main point of life, to live it, to enjoy in its attributes, to understand and comprehend the lessons that we as children are being shown, yes respect life, but also respect that life has been given to you, all these attributes have been given to all beings, however nature has a way of making you think, this planet changes and we in turn need to be able to change with it, we are within its womb. it is our mother, now please do not judge anyone, please be considerate of the choices that one needs to take, a seamen lives on the sea, an inuit lives on the ice, and the only reason in reality for this discussion is that life has given us so many more choices now than before, however that same life could change in a forenight, thank you S

[bram]

Just an observation here, from someone who has been considering going vegetarian for some time now, and knows well the ins and outs of this periodic and tiresome debate. No one appreciates the ex smoker who gives the fake cough whenever near a lit cigarette, and the boys down the pub don't want to be preached to by their mate who has found Jesus, and insists that Satan lurks in every pint.

You know what people notice and respect? Someone who lives their truth, demonstrates it daily, would be happy to explain it, yet beats no one over the head with it.

Agreed nobody likes that guy. Some times you need
That jerk though in a debate thread like this one. If everyone
Is going to be mellow who is going to get riled up, do some
Research and bring up some additional good points. It's possible that
The orginal post may have just gotten 30 likes by us veggies and meat
Dudes may have decided to just conveniently skip the thread. In stead we
Have 10 pages in 2 days worth of amazing points. Tell me that
Would have happened other wise. Sorry if ur feelings are hurt. While
I usually don't take this role. I'm passionate about this issue.
And glad to be the jerk of the thread. Muhahah :p


Also this is after all a thread on the subject.... Not a private bar room with the patriots game on. :)

hey, I'm the jerk on this thread! I'd just like to say in my defence that this post wasn't about the pros and cons of a vegetarian diet vs meat eating, it was about the appalling conditions in the slaughter houses; the vid was posted to let people see what is going on in these places and let them think about what they can do. Then it kind of mushroomed......

True about the satan thing too, I once had a pint of guiness with an image of jesus in the head, but when I started preaching to my mates about it they just looked at me like I was a drunken fool so I just drank it. Love, bram

[Abhaya]

Yeah come on RMorgan! Ur lucky ur only 29. And you have been a vegetarian for how long?! Talk about burning the candle at both ends! Frankly I'm worried. I'm going to proscribe red meat and cigars daily. I hope it's not to late :0.

;)

[TargeT]

Yeah come on RMorgan! Ur lucky ur only 29. And you have been a vegetarian for how long?! Talk about burning the candle at both ends! Frankly I'm worried. I'm going to proscribe red meat and cigars daily. I hope it's not to late :0.

;)

May I suggest the following:

Illusione Epernay Le Taureau
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fE-NV-iwnKU/T0rZDana_VI/AAAAAAAAB-k/J0mWqF6DtEk/s1600/IMG_2797.JPG

paired with:
Brookers Bourbon
http://michaelgreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/bookers-bourbon-HDPST.jpg

a nice camp fire, a few freinds and FOR GODS SAKE!!!! use wooden matches!

[161803398]

Animal and Human telepathy:

http://myscienceacademy.org/2013/01/13/the-extended-mind-recent-experimental-evidence-by-rupert-sheldrake/

http://www.skeptiko.com/blog/?p=3 video of dog experiment

OH dear from the point of view of contribution to collective memory. He believes all species draw on collective memory and contribute to it:

http://vimeo.com/11653660

[lake]

"When we shone the light for on the plant for one hour and then infected it [with a virus or with bacteria] 24 hours after that light exposure, it resisted the infection," he explained.

"But when we infected the plant before shining the light, it could not build up resistance.

"[So the plant] has a specific memory for the light which builds its immunity against pathogens, and it can adjust to varying light conditions."

He said that plants used information encrypted in the light to immunise themselves against seasonal pathogens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10598926

Are you a being of light which is of a magnetic property or a being of limited interaction in this field of reference and understanding?
The above is also you choice. lol

[MaroonLagoon]

I've decided to tackle this problem in my own life by transitioning step by step over to products and food that are as cruelty free and natural as possible. My partner likes meat sometimes and for the most part I don't, for a lot of different reasons mentioned here already and more, it horrifies me the things that happen on this planet and one of my personal moral codes is not to kill things even since I was a child, I bet I've killed about 10 bugs in my life and never gotten over it, why is it's life any less valid than mine just because it's smaller and can't speak my language. I was a vegetarian for a while but wasn't taking as good care of myself in the process as I should have and I started fainting. I don't go out and buy meat but he sometimes does. For me the crux of it all has become honouring and being grateful for the life that gave me life and trying my best to avoid any form of harm or cruelty. The cruelty to animals takes place in many ways too including lots of the products that are out there on the shelves, makeup and hair and skin products for example that are tested on animals, things like leather and some of the flavorings that are used in different foods, there's a lot. So I pick one thing, replace it with something more ethical or compassionate to me and don't move onto the next thing until that's incorporated into my routine. I've decided to dedicate myself to that life-long process, just keep transitioning that way step by step.

We do exploit lots of different plant species too.
My partner even though he eats meat sometimes he also nurtures his garden and cooks food like it's his baby, putting lots of love into it which seems to me to be a form of being thankful to his vegetables. I try to stop before I eat and get into the energy of being grateful and think about the process it took for it to get to me and in that way try to honour the life in whatever form. We have an imperfect scenario to work with for the time being so we just have to do the best we can according to what feels right to each of us.

If something were going to eat me, personally I don't have an issue with my body going to sustain the life of another being and it actually makes sense, nature's recycling. I'd rather my body go to a hungry bear than get hit by a car. And there's a beautiful honour in that in a way, in your body not going to waste, helping nurture something else in the cycle. I would like my body to feed the earth when I'm done with it.

But I would want my life to be honoured if the being that was eating my body was capable of that. If it was capable of that and didn't, that would be dis-respectful and a waste. It's rude in my mind. We are capable of that and I feel like we honour ourselves as well when we stop to acknowledge and thank another life like that. What I definitely don't want is to suffer and be tortured in the process and I don't want that for any living thing. Even if we don't know exactly what level of suffering is taking place we know that we're aware enough to know that we're causing another living thing to have an unpleasant experience in some of these cases. Is a bear capable of honouring my life or the life of a fish and being grateful to me or the fish for giving our vessel so that it could continue here, I don't know.

None of us can say for sure if an animal feels exactly what a human feels when put in these situations, to me if something has nerves it would seem obvious that it can feel pain, if it runs from danger that says something to me as well even if it might have a short attention span. Unless I am in their skin I don't feel that I can speak for them but then if I was I wouldn't be able to speak for them anyway, they can't communicate in our way with our words so how can I know? I sense that they can and do feel pain and sometimes fear and can suffer each in their own way but I know I don't have a way of proving that.


To me the abomination is lack of regard for the experiences endured by other beings in the process, knowing you are making another being suffer and choosing to anyway, or not acknowledging and being grateful that this life ended so that ours could continue. In my own life it's become less about meat vs. vegetables and more about my own attitude of being thankful, respecting the sacred-ness in all life.

[161803398]

We can know because we see....same as Building 7 for some...the whole 9/11 event for others. The whole "who am I to say...." thing has got to go, in my opinion if we are going to survive. While I don't think we should be stupid about our opinions, I think we have to start using what brains we have and being more confident in our own assessments. That's my two cents.

[MaroonLagoon]

Agreed. My bad

[Tane Mahuta]

The theme of this video is that if slaughter houses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.

"If we had to kill our own meat, everyone would be vegetarians". another quote

Hey Bram are you fimiliar with a documentary called "Earthlings"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys

Check it out...

warning veiwer discrection advised.

TM

[161803398]

Hey Bram are you fimiliar with a documentary called "Earthlings"

There is a beautiful part at the end around 1.26.48 and onwards and if people don't want to watch the entire documentary they might like to hear that that part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?ce4DJh-L7Ys

[bram]

The theme of this video is that if slaughter houses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.

"If we had to kill our own meat, everyone would be vegetarians". another quote

Hey Bram are you fimiliar with a documentary called "Earthlings"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys

Check it out...

warning veiwer discrection advised.

TM

Hi TM, phew, its heavy going!! I got to 50 minutes by which time my heart felt so heavy it was ready to burst..........Such a terrible terrible world we have created for sentient life on this earth. But I hope people watch this documentary and realize that this is REAL and that we participate in this by buying these meat products.

Love, bram