The Negative Space

[Freed Fox]

There are many kinds of sadness, and many forms of suffering. Sometimes we can exorcise these demons through their candid discussion. That is the intent of this thread.

I try not to inundate the boards with new threads when the topic being addressed can better be accomplished in an already existing thread. I also try to provide something for everyone, and not be too self-indulgent. The intention here stuck me as sufficiently broad. A place to air grievances.

I've seen much discussion of the emotional body, and an acknowledgement that emotions are typically one of two types; those with an identifiable or tangible cause, and those that seem to arise out of nowhere. Further it's been implied that these 'causeless' emotions arise from lack of control over ones E-body.

I believe there is a third type; that which is essentially systemic to the individual. Typically born of multiple causes or issues which are fundamental to one's reality, even if these causes are individually identifiable.

I don't enjoy dwelling upon the negative, and when it is necessary I typically do so in private. As I stated before, though, I do think that the communicative process can be very helpful at times, as I want it to be for any members here who might be encountering difficulty. I don't want this thread to become a source of additional negativity, however, or a pissing match about who's got it worse. We should all be aware that everyone has problems in life and encounter unique challenges of our own along the way. And out of respect for the forum rules, no one here is ultimately liable for anyone else. I acknowledge that no one is responsible for my thoughts or actions but me.


On my end of things, I've been trying to process a sense of powerlessness, if not even defeat. The proverbial winds have been taken from under my sails. I admit, this is a familiar place, but with the progress that I thought I'd made since then, I did not expect it to be so strong.

I don't know if it's ironic or not, but I feel that one of the root causes stems from my quest for higher truths. This forum has been a veritable gold mine, and has lead me to other places which have contributed greatly to my continuing knowledge and broadening awareness. The phrase, "the more you know, the more you realize you don't know," has certainly come to mind. Even still there are pages of reading that I intend to do, and although I may not hit "thanks" in every case I feel I owe you all, even those who I may disagree with.

I recently listened to an interview with George Kavassilas in which he described many of the new age movements as an intentional misguidance of the human spirit, en masse. For those who are curious, here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZL5Yc3G7H8

Although I am not taking his account to be absolute fact, it did seem to correspond with other paradigms I have read of which I can't entirely refute.

I thought of all the people there are, and have been, and particularly the people here; if so many wise and insightful people can be deceived by ordinary means, what chance can I possibly stand? To avoid being tricked, avoid being trapped... One of the worst remaining fears I have is one I fundamentally can't conquer. I believe in reincarnation but I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

There's simply no way I can assure myself that I will.

Self doubt is my greatest enemy, I think. It always has been. I am all too aware, unfortunately, that the only person who can fix that fault is me.

[westhill]

One of the worst remaining fears I have is one I fundamentally can't conquer. I believe in reincarnation but I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

There's simply no way I can assure myself that I will.

Self doubt is my greatest enemy, I think. It always has been. I am all too aware, unfortunately, that the only person who can fix that fault is me.

I've been thinking about doubt and I think it's healthy. Trying to get rid of it is where it becomes a problem.
It's when we stop exploring our doubts is when we are in trouble. So I've made an alliance with it. In a world
where so much is hidden, doubt has become a guide. I'll take it over certainty (which is has its own problems)
any day.

I get the not wanting to come back. I believe that's why the earth is so beautiful, to help us get through all
the difficulties. Even so I get tired. And mistakes are inevitable, if ending reincarnation depends on a perfectly
lived life, we are all screwed. Much more subtle than being correct.

[Wind]

I believe in reincarnation but I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

There's simply no way I can assure myself that I will.

Self doubt is my greatest enemy, I think. It always has been. I am all too aware, unfortunately, that the only person who can fix that fault is me.

Welcome the club. I have always been my greatest enemy. I too am too aware, my conscious mind still controls me too much. I'm just starting to learn who I really even am. What ever I do never really satisfies me enough, because I just don't trust and respect myself enough. I always have wanted to help those that are weaker than me, but I'm hardly able to keep myself in balance from time to time. I am too sensitive and emotional. Is it a blessing or a curse?

If I'm totally honest I have never wanted to be here, but for some reason I chose to be here right now so there is no one else to blame than me. Learning through suffering has been my journey and it still is. I suppose that pressure makes diamonds.

[OOO]

Every time I hear 'negative space' my drawing classes come to mind. In art the negative space is just as important as the postive. It actually helps define the object you are trying to see, yet its own shape is usually abstract and its just background. Hmmmm....

[Freed Fox]

westhill; I see what you mean, but I have a hard time seeing doubt in such a light, as for me it has been more of a limitation than a voice of caution/discernment.

StarSeed; thank you for your honesty, these are difficult things to admit. I certainly hope you're right about the diamonds...

All the best

[westhill]

westhill; I see what you mean, but I have a hard time seeing doubt in such a light, as for me it has been more of a limitation than a voice of caution/discernment.

StarSeed; thank you for your honesty, these are difficult things to admit. I certainly hope you're right about the diamonds...

All the best

Turning an adversary into an ally isn't much different than turning coal into diamonds.
Time and pressure, the great transformers.

[Jenci]

On my end of things, I've been trying to process a sense of powerlessness, if not even defeat. The proverbial winds have been taken from under my sails. I admit, this is a familiar place, but with the progress that I thought I'd made since then, I did not expect it to be so strong.

I don't know if it's ironic or not, but I feel that one of the root causes stems from my quest for higher truths.



The higher truth that you are questing for is realisation that there is no individual "you" doing anything. To the individual person this does manifest as a feeling of powerlessness so this is not surprising to me that the sensation is getting
stronger.

It is the resistance to the powerlessness which gets in the way of progress.





I thought of all the people there are, and have been, and particularly the people here; if so many wise and insightful people can be deceived by ordinary means, what chance can I possibly stand? To avoid being tricked, avoid being trapped... One of the worst remaining fears I have is one I fundamentally can't conquer. I believe in reincarnation but I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

This feeling of being weary with the life/lives/recincarnations is also part of the process but in terms of the higher truth that you seek, there is no reincarnation.

To the individual person there appears to be birth, death, reincarnation, birth, death etc.

But the absolute truth is that you are eternal, unchanging, birthless, deathless and you are unaffected by any of these events which appear to be happening to you as the individual person.

When the absolute truth is realised the idea of reincarnations becomes irrelevant so the need to somehow get things right to prevent another life here, really is just a distraction away from the truth you seek. It's like a character in a dream trying to change the dream. Better to focus attention elsewhere and realise that you are not the character, nor are you affected by the dream and wake up from the dream.

Lots of people get tricked in terms of spirituality because there are lots of people talking about all sorts of phenomena. It can be very interesting but it focuses attention on everything which is changing and transient.....which is everything you are not.

Breakthrough in realisation terms happens when attention gets directed to the absolute, unchanging truth of what you are. My advice is seek out those you keep your attention directed that way and discard those who direct attention onto the changing and transient.


Jeanette

[Finefeather]

On my end of things, I've been trying to process a sense of powerlessness, if not even defeat. The proverbial winds have been taken from under my sails. I admit, this is a familiar place, but with the progress that I thought I'd made since then, I did not expect it to be so strong.

I don't know if it's ironic or not, but I feel that one of the root causes stems from my quest for higher truths.



The higher truth that you are questing for is realisation that there is no individual "you" doing anything. To the individual person this does manifest as a feeling of powerlessness so this is not surprising to me that the sensation is getting
stronger.

It is the resistance to the powerlessness which gets in the way of progress.





I thought of all the people there are, and have been, and particularly the people here; if so many wise and insightful people can be deceived by ordinary means, what chance can I possibly stand? To avoid being tricked, avoid being trapped... One of the worst remaining fears I have is one I fundamentally can't conquer. I believe in reincarnation but I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

This feeling of being weary with the life/lives/recincarnations is also part of the process but in terms of the higher truth that you seek, there is no reincarnation.

To the individual person there appears to be birth, death, reincarnation, birth, death etc.

But the absolute truth is that you are eternal, unchanging, birthless, deathless and you are unaffected by any of these events which appear to be happening to you as the individual person.

When the absolute truth is realised the idea of reincarnations becomes irrelevant so the need to somehow get things right to prevent another life here, really is just a distraction away from the truth you seek. It's like a character in a dream trying to change the dream. Better to focus attention elsewhere and realise that you are not the character, nor are you affected by the dream and wake up from the dream.

Lots of people get tricked in terms of spirituality because there are lots of people talking about all sorts of phenomena. It can be very interesting but it focuses attention on everything which is changing and transient.....which is everything you are not.

Breakthrough in realisation terms happens when attention gets directed to the absolute, unchanging truth of what you are. My advice is seek out those you keep your attention directed that way and discard those who direct attention onto the changing and transient.


Jeanette
Hi Jeanette
Excellent post...thank you so much.
It is the fight which we need to stop...the fight between higher mind and the lower mind...the lower mind is the one which thinks it is all there is, and it needs to surrender to find peace within.
With peace comes the quiet into which truth and love can gather and fill our hearts. The higher mind does not think...it just is...and knows what it is...
Love
Ray

[lookbeyond]

Jenci and or Finefeather, if you dont mind would you pls explain a little more re the no reincarnation concept.I understand spirit is eternal and continuous and that living from the heart is the way to live but would you pls elaborate?-there is so much info to process on Avalon.

Thanks in anticipation, lookbeyond

[Finefeather]

Jenci and or Finefeather, if you dont mind would you pls explain a little more re the no reincarnation concept.I understand spirit is eternal and continuous and that living from the heart is the way to live but would you pls elaborate?-there is so much info to process on Avalon.

Thanks in anticipation, lookbeyond
Hi lookbeyond
Reincarnation is actually done from the causal level of our Being.
We, our true Self or Monad or Spirit is many steps away from the individual personality which appears on the 3D plane...in fact...there is normally very little of the true You or Self that is able to manifest on the 3D plane because of the great difference in vibration...so only a tiny portion is evident on the 3D plane, there is more of it on the emotional plane and still more on the mental plane...and each of these planes have grades of matter which respond to higher or lower thinking. By the time it gets to the 3D plane the lower mind has taken over completely and this is the personality which we present as our individualised Self. Most people are not even aware of this tiny portion of the true Self and our goal is to work on our attitudes and understanding to build a better link between our higher bodies and our personality.
To give you a rough idea of our constitution here are the levels which we operate in, in our Solar system...starting from the highest...and to make it even more daunting we need to understand that the 7 levels which we operate in are ONLY in the LAST level of the Cosmic Universe...this should indicate to us just how very small we are in the overhaul scheme...and each of these levels have sub levels as well!
Anybody who does serious out of body work can verify these levels depending on your overall level of awareness and the level to which you have achieved enlightenment, or, the level at which you have increased your ability to master the higher states of matter. The levels or realms are exactly the same as when water turns into steam and then dissipates into the air. All the realms are in and around us and extend up to and beyond our Solar System.

================================================
1st plane: Solar Monad (Monad means..a ONE that stands alone, we are all derived from, and are in our own rights a Monad and this is the primary link to our Oneness with All) direct from the Logos of our Solar System...who is the creator of us all...if you are from this system...this is our roots.
================================================
2nd plane: Individualised Monads...billions of them...individual parts of the 7 sub Solar Monads of the Logos of our System. From this level everything that exists in our Solar System is created with the help of the material Devas...from minerals to plants to animals to humans to super humans.
==================================================
3rd plane,4th plane, and 1st sub level of the 5th plane: This is where our Higher Self is, it spans 3 major planes or levels because each level is the home of the 3 primary qualities in us...they are...Will Power...Wisdom and Intelligence(Higher Mind). This is our immortal Higher Self
=================================================
2nd sub level of Mind of the 5th plane: is a gap between the Higher Self and the Causal body...we need to bridge this gap from the bottom...it is the lowest point in matter which a Higher Self can operate in fully.
=================================================
3rd sub level of Mind of the 5th plane: is our Causal Body...or Divine Ego...this is the part of us which controls and determines our incarnations...it is also the higher memory where we have stored all of our experiences of our many lives...it is aware of all our desires and shortcomings as well as our beauty...it is mortal...it will one day cease to exist when we are complete with our incarnations and have ascended from 3D incarnations. This is the real meaning of ascension. Once we have achieved this ascension we still retain the permanent atoms, which have been created to incarnate, to allow us to re enter the lower realms for service or other reasons.
==================================================
4th, 5th, 6th and 7th sub level of Mind of the 5th plane: This is our lower mind of our consciousness...also known as the little ego because of it's often negative attitudes. This is the mind we use each day to make our decision etc. This aspect is mortal and will cease to exist some time after physical death.
==================================================
6th plane: Emotional Body – This body is mortal and will cease to exist some time after physical death.
==================================================
7th plane: Physical Body - This body is mortal and will cease to exist after physical death.
==================================================

So from this we can see that the Causal Body does the reincarnating, although we should not think that the Higher Self is not involved here because it is always present...it is just the amount of the Higher self which varies in each person depending on the bridge we have built between the Personality and the Causal Body and to the Higher Self.


Hope this helps...there is a lot more to this, so do not imagine it is as simple as I have made it appear.

Love
Ray

[lookbeyond]

Thanks so much Ray-love lookbeyond

[markpierre]

I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

There's simply no way I can assure myself that I will.

********

Self doubt is my greatest enemy, I think. It always has been. I am all too aware, unfortunately, that the only person who can fix that fault is me.


God I've had that thought so many times. It could have been my mantra. That's what powers the train out of here friend. I can't not appreciate that you're in it.
I get in it too. A real true fair dinkum dark night of the soul, makes depression look silly. Then there really is no you. Because 'you' depended on
associating with things out there that had meaning. You may be getting to that. There is no meaning. Can't find it because it was all a fraud.
I don't think you'd have to do that, if you don't quite let go of the grief you feel at the lack of anything true in the world. You're feeling it. Not deflecting it.
Everyone else is numbing it out with their heads. Their real hearts should be breaking. That's what Armageddon is; when the heart finally just bursts.
Just look at it and love your own passion, and appreciate yourself for it. There's a bit of God in that. When it becomes joy, it'll be obvious.

You have nothing whatever in the universe to worry about, but I hope you don't let that stop you.

[Jenci]

Jenci and or Finefeather, if you dont mind would you pls explain a little more re the no reincarnation concept.I understand spirit is eternal and continuous and that living from the heart is the way to live but would you pls elaborate?-there is so much info to process on Avalon.

Thanks in anticipation, lookbeyond


Hi Lookbeyond

To the vast majority of people reality is the human body that they exist as and the world around them. They are born and they die and in between they live their life as if it is real because it appears real to them, so they have no need to question it.

Then there are people who become aware of the fact that they are much more and that the body they are inhabiting is just a vehicle for this lifetime only. After the body dies, they will go on in another form, living another life reincarnated.

To this group of people the reality of life that the first group experience is very different. Getting to this point of realising that you are an eternal being, not affected by the death of your physical body is not the absolute Truth though.

At this stage of becoming aware of reincarnation there is still an “individual” present having the experience.

It may not be an individual person in the sense that it is limited to a 3D physical body (like the first group of people would believe) but it is still an individual being or soul with its own unique characteristics which says "this is me", "this is my experience", "this is my life" or "this is my reincarnation". Or to put another way "It's me and mine and not yours and I can differentiate me from you and mine from yours".

The absolute Truth is that there are no individual and when that is realised what used to be considered reality makes another shift and it is seen for the illusion it is.

This is not something which can be understood with the individual mind because its outside of its comprehension/ language, which is why spiritual practice is to go beyond the mind. It is something which needs to be experienced to be understood.

Getting to that realisation is not easy. The irony of this is, that the human experience is the purpose of this life for the individual. It’s not about realising that you are the One because that is what you already are, so the absolute Truth will be hidden very well behind the veil of illusion of the individual perspective.

Having said that, some people, this lifetime, will be dissatisfied with the human experience and find themselves craving the deeper Truth. We could say that they are on the journey home and nothing short of that absolute realisation will satisfy them.

Although the absolute Truth is hidden very well from the individual there is much that can be done to break through that veil of individual illusion and reveal what is beyond it but really what it boils down to is attention and where it is directed; it needs to be directed towards the absolute not towards the individual.

What we have in the spiritual community is that a lot of people are "teaching" by directing their followers’ attention on the individual mind and all the phenomena that interests the individual. It may be a very interesting experience and lead to the person gaining some very useful knowledge and having a fulfilling life but it will not lead them towards the absolute Truth.

That’s not a problem in itself, after all we are not here in this life for enlightenment, we are here to have a human experience and the richness, the knowledge, the diversity, fascination and interest are all part of that.

The problem comes when the “teachers” sell what they are teaching as the absolute Truth. This is where it is misleading for those few who feel compelled to seek something beyond all the fascinating phenomena that this life has to offer.

So is it is question for the individual – what do you really want? Enlightenment is the state where the individual person has disappeared and their perspective (outlook - how they perceieve everything) has shifted to the One and it is permanent. In that shift, ideas about the individual person, their life and their reincarnations no longer exist in reality.


Jeanette

[greybeard]

To throw some confusion (mine) into it.

Truth is--form and formless both and neither, yet not knowable in human terms.

I have noticed that briefly Adyashanti and Eckhart Tolle said than during the awakening process they were aware of past lives--both also said that they did not want to give you that belief system.
David Hawkins was more in depth on past lives.
However all say the ego is identification with the me story---- that does not mean to say that the story is not "true" ie happened/ happening,
The story is impersonal.
Past lives give karma to this present life--- flip flop--one life incurs karma--next undoing.
There is only one life time in reality.
The moment enlightenment occurs there is the realisation that there never was an individual person to incur karma.
The story however is karma---non identification with the story then karma is non existent.

When the freedom from the me concept happens then no return visits here.

Not saying what I have witten is true because being a point of view it is a concept and thus has no real validity.

"Those thoughts" are easy to get rid of-- the moment hey become "my thoughts" thats different--then they become precious as mine I--own them.
What is this me that claims ownership?
Same with past lives.

Chris

[Fred Steeves]

I thought of all the people there are, and have been, and particularly the people here; if so many wise and insightful people can be deceived by ordinary means, what chance can I possibly stand? To avoid being tricked, avoid being trapped...


You stand as good a chance as anyone else Freed Fox, and I do mean anybody. "Know Thyself" is more than just an old saying, as far as I'm concerned it's the answer, short and sweet. The more you know yourself, warts and all, the less easily you will be tricked or trapped.

Like someone a long time ago told me: "Keep It Simple Stupid". http://nexusnow.info/forum/images/smilies/newadditions/smile.gif

Cheers,
Fred

[greybeard]

I think in fairness to teachers they have to met you where you stand-- though there are little clues in most teachings but if they come right out and say

"Only God is and you are That---you dreamed it all up there is nothing outside of you. You are One without a second. There never was anyone to do anything to you. (Thats an Eckhart Tolle quote)

Then that's end of story if you get it-- however most will say I dont get it.
So more information is given.
Sometimes its necessary to hear the same thing over and over again.
True of me as its still work in progress.

Adyashanti said on the cd "The End of your world--the dawn of awakening."
"You will look at your feet and say I (as a body/ me) exists, I will say no you dont," or words to that effect.
It all seems so real but then again a good wll acted film can bring out all kinds of "real" feelings within one.

Its a question of ending the dream of a separate self. Personal implies separation--duality

Chris

[lookbeyond]

Thankyou for responses- i wonder is it really possible to function as an enlightened being in this world, with the business of everyday life, dramas of raising children, baggage of karma- i wonder if it comes down to choosing an incarnation in advance such that it is the circumstances in that lifetime that make it possible to become enlightened and actually live that way permanently- not just have fleeting moments of- or are those moments enough to stop you coming back for more experience?

Any responses appreciated, lookbeyond

[greybeard]

Thankyou for responses- i wonder is it really possible to function as an enlightened being in this world, with the business of everyday life, dramas of raising children, baggage of karma- i wonder if it comes down to choosing an incarnation in advance such that it is the circumstances in that lifetime that make it possible to become enlightened and actually live that way permanently- not just have fleeting moments of- or are those moments enough to stop you coming back for more experience?

Any responses appreciated, lookbeyond

The late Dr David Hawkins recommended telling your nearest and dearest when you get really serious about enlightenment so that they know what’s happening if you start disappearing into states of bliss.
He had the biggest Psychiatric practice in America at that time of his initial awakening but it soon became obvious to him that he ould not continue and left all behind. He went to Sedona and spent quite a lot of years virtually on his own meditating hours a day as the state matured.
It was thirty years before he could attempt to language the state of enlightenment.
Eckhart Tolle continued work for a short period then spent two years just sitting on a park bench in London.

Some seem able just to continue as before.---chopping wood and fetching water is the traditional description of pre and after the state materialises.

None of my relatives knows what's happening with me but two close friends do.
The Kundalini energy has been working on my body for about 20years--im now almost predominantly right brained---detail escapes me but essence I get quickly content no--context yes. Spelling grammar---no. Sentences in complete--speaking or writing.
Focus peripheral rather than sharp.
Logic no longer linear --that creates problems--- I can jump mid sentence to something else that seems to me relevant but to my surprise others dont get the jump.
Now If I hadent read about the process that naturally occurs I would be worried that I was loosing it.
Books or cds appear after a process has started that confirm that this is part of a process--different for all but there are similarities.
I find it difficult to be annoyed at people yet im not that patient.
Past situations come up automatically from childhood and teens for me to look at--- could I have handled differently and if I had where would I be now etc.--not that that matters.

Hope thats helpful.

Chris

[Jenci]

Thankyou for responses- i wonder is it really possible to function as an enlightened being in this world, with the business of everyday life, dramas of raising children, baggage of karma- i wonder if it comes down to choosing an incarnation in advance such that it is the circumstances in that lifetime that make it possible to become enlightened and actually live that way permanently- not just have fleeting moments of- or are those moments enough to stop you coming back for more experience?

Any responses appreciated, lookbeyond


I say that the higher aspect of our individual self chooses everything about our incarnation. Human life is about experience and from that higher self aspect everything about our experience is perfect for us even though we may as the person here in 3D find our life quite unbearable.

I know for me that when I became aware of this, the struggle I had with life, reduced. It's made it easier to face each life situation directly and experience it to the full, however physically or emotionally painful and difficult it is. In fact if I find myself resisting what is occurring then it's a signal that I need to do some work to investigate what is going on with me.


It's very rare for enlightenment to happen instantaneously but it did happen to Eckhart Tolle like that and he sat on a park bench for a couple of years as he found it difficult to function in the world. Generally it happens over a period of years. It's a process of the layers of the illusion of the individual falling away gradually as the realisation gets embodied. When it happens like this it is very ordinary and life goes on as normal. You know the saying before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.


Jeanette

[Freed Fox]

The absolute Truth is that there are no individual and when that is realised what used to be considered reality makes another shift and it is seen for the illusion it is.

[...]

The problem comes when the “teachers” sell what they are teaching as the absolute Truth. This is where it is misleading for those few who feel compelled to seek something beyond all the fascinating phenomena that this life has to offer.


Careful...

[Jenci]

The absolute Truth is that there are no individual and when that is realised what used to be considered reality makes another shift and it is seen for the illusion it is.

[...]

The problem comes when the “teachers” sell what they are teaching as the absolute Truth. This is where it is misleading for those few who feel compelled to seek something beyond all the fascinating phenomena that this life has to offer.


Careful...


That piece of information never does go down well. It didn't with me either....and rightly so. As individuals we are made to resist extinction.

But it doesn't matter what I say about it or anyone else for that matter. People have to investigate this and discover the higher truth for themselves. Its about realisation not about knowledge being imparted or received.


I shall leave it here in this thread. Thank you.

Jeanette

[another bob]

The moment enlightenment occurs there is the realisation that there never was an individual person to incur karma.

Once when Hyakujo delivered some Zen lectures an old man attended them, unseen by the monks. At the end of each talk when the monks left so did he. But one day he remained after they had gone, and Hyakujo asked him: `Who are you?'

The old man replied: `I am not a human being, but I was a human being when the Kashapa Buddha preached in this world. I was a Zen master and lived on this mountain. At that time one of my students asked me whether the enlightened man is subject to the law of causation. I answered him: "The enlightened man is not subject to the law of causation."

For this answer evidencing a clinging to absoluteness I became a fox for five hundred rebirths, and I am still a fox. Will you save me from this condition with your Zen words and let me get out of a fox's body? Now may I ask you: Is the enlightened man subject to the law of causation?'

Hyakujo said: `The enlightened man is one with the law of causation.'

At the words of Hyakujo the old man was enlightened. `I am emancipated,' he said, paying homage with a deep bow. `I am no more a fox, but I have to leave my body in my dwelling place behind this mountain. Please perform my funeral as a monk.' Then he disappeared.

The next day Hyakujo gave an order through the chief monk to prepare to attend the funeral of a monk. `No one was sick in the infirmary,' wondered the monks. `What does our teacher mean?'

After dinner Hyakujo led the monks out and around the mountain. In a cave, with his staff he poked out the corpse of an old fox and then performed the ceremony of cremation.

That evening Hyakujo gave a talk to the monks and told this story about the law of causation (and the "Freed Fox").

:yo:

[greybeard]

Hi Bob
The late Dr Hawkins did say, I recall, that whilst the enlightened are beyond personal karma there is still karma--- I cant remember the terminology he used but what you have posted I suspect sums it up.
He also said the void is not a true reality--he ended up there before this birth and while it seems very real it lacks Divine love.
So he had to take on another birth to resolve that.

Chris

Thanks Chris

[another bob]

He also said the void is not a true reality--he ended up there before this birth and while it seems very real it lacks Divine love.
So he had to take on another birth to resolve that.

Conversely, the neurosurgeon in the news recently, talking about his nde, indicated that the Void was impregnated with Love, so what does that tell us about subjectivity?

:yo:


PS: One of my favorite mystics on the subject:

"Once my soul was elevated, & I saw the light,
the beauty, & the fullness that is in God in a way that
I had never seen before in so great a manner.

I did not see love there. I then lost the love which was mine,
& was made non- love. Afterward, I saw him in a darkness, &
in a darkness precisely because the good that he is, is far too
great to be conceived or understood. Indeed, anything
conceivable or understandable does not attain this good or
even come near it.

My soul was then granted a most certain faith, a secure &
most firm hope, a continual security about God that took away
all my fear. In this good, which is seen in the darkness, I
recollected myself totally. I was made so sure of God that in
no way can I ever entertain any doubts about him or of my
possession of him .

The All Good was all the more certain & superior to everything
the more it was seen in darkness & most secret. This is why I
see the All Good accompanied with darkness: because it
surpasses every good. All else in comparison is but darkness.
No matter how far the soul or heart expands itself, all that
expanse is less than this good.

What I related until now ~ that is, when the soul sees all
creation overflowing with God's presence, when it sees the
divine power or the divine wisdom ~ all this is inferior to this
most secret good, because this good which I see with
darkness is the whole, & all other things are but parts. "

~ Angela of Foligno

[greybeard]

He also said the void is not a true reality--he ended up there before this birth and while it seems very real it lacks Divine love.
So he had to take on another birth to resolve that.

Conversely, the neurosurgeon in the news recently, talking about his nde, indicated that the Void was impregnated with Love, so what does that tell us about subjectivity?

:yo:

Depends on your definition of void---he was very clear on it--- prior to this life he was a Buddhist and he was under the impression that even love had to let go of (non attachment)--- so his belief of then took him to what he believed at the time of that exit from the body.
He accepts that he had a misunderstanding of the teaching then.
Difference is between no-thing and nothing-----no thing is formless but not nothing--not empty.
My ability to explain what I mean is almost non existent at the moment.
Chris

[another bob]

He also said the void is not a true reality--he ended up there before this birth and while it seems very real it lacks Divine love.
So he had to take on another birth to resolve that.

Conversely, the neurosurgeon in the news recently, talking about his nde, indicated that the Void was impregnated with Love, so what does that tell us about subjectivity?

:yo:

Depends on your definition of void---he was very clear on it--- prior to this life he was a Buddhist and he was under the impression that even love had to let go of (non attachment)--- so his belief of then took him to what he believed at the time of that exit from the body.
He accepts that he had a misunderstanding of the teaching then.
Difference is between no-thing and nothing-----no thing is formless but not nothing--not empty.
My ability to explain what I mean is almost non existent at the moment.
Chris

Ah, OK, I see -- what he called the Void was actually one of the formless realms (as opposed to the true Void), where naughty Buddhists get sent when they cling to emptiness. It is not uncommon, and of course they need to return to get the truth about Love. It's one of the drawbacks I pointed out in my essay on Zen and the Emotional Contraction.

http://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/zen-and-the-emotionalsexual-contraction/

[Freed Fox]

Back to the negative space...

It seems to me that there are far more pitfalls and traps, which serve to suck us back here, than there are pathways to true progress (a more harmonious incarnation). I try to live without attachment, but I am very attached to the idea that I don't want to come back here.

[AwakeInADream]

One type of negativity that is very useful is when I am told that I am wrong about something (especially if I am wrong).

True progress can only be made after many many failures.

So when I am in error, I 'enjoy' being told so, because this gives me the opportunity to correct myself.

(So please, please, if anyone should see me in error, please point it out to me. I won't ever take it personally.:))

EDIT: A lot of people are saying lately, that they don't want to incarnate on Earth again next time. Really? Don't you want to see the job through until the end?

I have hope that If we each keep coming back here, trying desperately to change the world little by little, that eventually the world will become perfect.

Don't give up!:) Were getting there!(5 lifetimes more, maximum)

[Freed Fox]

Maybe, if I had the slightest clue as to what job I was supposed to be doing.

I feel inherently out of place here. I have had that distinct impression all of my life, during the good times and the bad. As time goes on, the sensation only gets stronger. As we speak I am in the town where I spent my entire childhood. Yet I am utterly homesick.

I don't claim to understand the nature of our souls and existence here, but it does seem to me that there are plenty of people relatively comfortable with being human to get the job done without me. Whatever that job is. I don't know what I am, but it isn't human. This is what has been demonstrated to me, time and time again. And no, this is no response to being a social outcast or reject. I've had many friends and very few 'enemies' (which I don't really consider them to be anymore).

I'm kind of at a loss with this..

[AwakeInADream]

Hi FreedFox!:)

I don't like having a body either sometimes. I'm much happier when I'm dreaming...

Still I feel that life must have a purpose, otherwise it would just be torture wouldn't it.

(I'm hoping someone smarter than me, can tell us what it is.:o)

[lookbeyond]

Maybe, if I had the slightest clue as to what job I was supposed to be doing.

I feel inherently out of place here. I have had that distinct impression all of my life, during the good times and the bad. As time goes on, the sensation only gets stronger. As we speak I am in the town where I spent my entire childhood. Yet I am utterly homesick.

I don't claim to understand the nature of our souls and existence here, but it does seem to me that there are plenty of people relatively comfortable with being human to get the job done without me. Whatever that job is. I don't know what I am, but it isn't human. This is what has been demonstrated to me, time and time again. And no, this is no response to being a social outcast or reject. I've had many friends and very few 'enemies' (which I don't really consider them to be anymore).

I'm kind of at a loss with this..



Hi Freed Fox, i have found most recently a personal revelation came to me via dream. I for some time have set the intention before i go to sleep and then take note of my dream.I have found it most effective (having read this somewhere else on the forum) to lay in bed briefly after i awaken and go over my dream, i feel you are the best one to do this as you know your heart, sometimes when people share things aspects to the whole story may be left out for whatever reason.Look in your heart Freed Fox- it may take years- remember you are still in your twenties.Also,in the meantime you can make your (and someone elses) world a better place by engaging in some service to others type activity be it volunteer or income related, i am an RN and this part of my life is one of my most fulfilling,

Kind Reguards to you, lookbeyond

[another bob]

Maybe, if I had the slightest clue as to what job I was supposed to be doing.

I feel inherently out of place here. I have had that distinct impression all of my life, during the good times and the bad. As time goes on, the sensation only gets stronger. As we speak I am in the town where I spent my entire childhood. Yet I am utterly homesick.

I don't claim to understand the nature of our souls and existence here, but it does seem to me that there are plenty of people relatively comfortable with being human to get the job done without me. Whatever that job is. I don't know what I am, but it isn't human. This is what has been demonstrated to me, time and time again. And no, this is no response to being a social outcast or reject. I've had many friends and very few 'enemies' (which I don't really consider them to be anymore).

I'm kind of at a loss with this..



Nanci Danison had what the premier NDE researcher Kenneth Ring calls a "Trancendental NDE", in terms of both what she experienced, as well as what she was able to bring back and share. Trained as a lawyer, she is also quite articulate and detailed in her renderings.

After reviewing her YouTube interviews, I was intrigued, because much of what she reported confirmed experiences of my own, as well as those of several friends who also had nde's and related at length to me about what they discovered in the process.

Consequently, I purchased her books and was even more impressed with the breadth of her realizations. There have been several threads about her here at Avalon, and as mentioned, a good intro would be from her YT channel.

Questioning one's life purpose is a universal inquiry, and yet it is rare that we come to a sense of clarity in this critical matter. The propaganda of this world, in fact, tends to even ridicule such pursuit in various ways, and most end up avoiding the issue until some sort of existential crisis forces us to confront it.

In the following video, Nanci briefly shares what she learned in regard to our "purpose", while she was merged with Source during her nde. Actually, she says it wasn't an nde, but that she had in fact died, and only while merged with Source did she feel moved to return (and was permitted to by Source) to help correct the prevalent misunderstandings that are part of the consensus delusion when it comes to the issue of why we are here, and what we truly are. She goes into much more detail in her books, but here is a good intro on the subject:



3PX2x0FxDTs


also related:


Oo8szDkpcsM


:yo:

[AwakeInADream]

He also said the void is not a true reality--he ended up there before this birth and while it seems very real it lacks Divine love.
So he had to take on another birth to resolve that.

Conversely, the neurosurgeon in the news recently, talking about his nde, indicated that the Void was impregnated with Love, so what does that tell us about subjectivity?

:yo:


PS: One of my favorite mystics on the subject:

"Once my soul was elevated, & I saw the light,
the beauty, & the fullness that is in God in a way that
I had never seen before in so great a manner.

I did not see love there. I then lost the love which was mine,
& was made non- love. Afterward, I saw him in a darkness, &
in a darkness precisely because the good that he is, is far too
great to be conceived or understood. Indeed, anything
conceivable or understandable does not attain this good or
even come near it.

My soul was then granted a most certain faith, a secure &
most firm hope, a continual security about God that took away
all my fear. In this good, which is seen in the darkness, I
recollected myself totally. I was made so sure of God that in
no way can I ever entertain any doubts about him or of my
possession of him .

The All Good was all the more certain & superior to everything
the more it was seen in darkness & most secret. This is why I
see the All Good accompanied with darkness: because it
surpasses every good. All else in comparison is but darkness.
No matter how far the soul or heart expands itself, all that
expanse is less than this good.

What I related until now ~ that is, when the soul sees all
creation overflowing with God's presence, when it sees the
divine power or the divine wisdom ~ all this is inferior to this
most secret good, because this good which I see with
darkness is the whole, & all other things are but parts. "

~ Angela of Foligno

This video has been posted elsewhere, but I think it belongs here too:
UrAgb1-UKQ8

A quote from the video:

"One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious." - Carl G. Jung

[markpierre]

Maybe, if I had the slightest clue as to what job I was supposed to be doing.

I feel inherently out of place here. I have had that distinct impression all of my life, during the good times and the bad. As time goes on, the sensation only gets stronger. As we speak I am in the town where I spent my entire childhood. Yet I am utterly homesick.

I don't claim to understand the nature of our souls and existence here, but it does seem to me that there are plenty of people relatively comfortable with being human to get the job done without me. Whatever that job is. I don't know what I am, but it isn't human. This is what has been demonstrated to me, time and time again. And no, this is no response to being a social outcast or reject. I've had many friends and very few 'enemies' (which I don't really consider them to be anymore).

I'm kind of at a loss with this..

Damn, you're still in loss. It feels like loss. It's grief. You're losing key components of your little self. The bits that keep it sedated.
I'll cave in here and give you a gem from ACIM (it's okay, it's Jesus)

"I do not know what anything is for"......Lesson # can't remember. Early on.

Anything. ANYTHING. I do not know. But I can know this; that it is for something. It doesn't say 'nothing'.

You're in a great spot. It's not what you're looking at, or what you're thinking. It's how you feel. If you can just not
sedate yourself somehow with distractions, or even answers. Even looking for answers. Give up.

The answer is it wants you to be with it,
and that's not the answer you want.
And it's because it's not the answer that you want that you suffer. It's something you need to do and so you're doing it.
It could feel good to be doing that.

So an experiment? You stay with it. I'll promise you something will happen. At least it will shift, because it's true, 'this too shall pass'.
That aching longing self gets replaced by a determined self. And he holds the ticket. You can't do it without him.
He doesn't stop longing, but he's on to the next experience and the next and the next. His eye stays on the prize.
You're having an experience. It's as holy and divine and expanding as any other mystical experience.
Mystical is mystery. What's it for?
'I do not know.' Later I'll know, and I'm sure I'll be grateful.

I've seen it. If you haven't, the energy of faith is 100X that of evidence. You have 100X more velocity than I do.
What you cannot see, yet know of that defies belief and defines Reality. Now you being in this world, how would you know about that?
From you, who's not from here.

Dreams come true. This dream comes true to itself. It/you/we need to see it's/our fraudulence clearly, before we can do that. I mean all of it.
It's not about sin and evil and guilt and worthiness and manifesting s#it in a nicer package. It's about uncovering the truth.

The truth of you will really surprise you.

[Finefeather]

Oo8szDkpcsM


:yo:
Hi bob
I think Nanci Danison is quite refreshing, thanks for the videos.

In the second video where she talks of karma, she seems to imply that karma is some kind of judgement and so concludes that karma is non existent because there is no judgement. These two concepts are not synonymous in this instance because karma does not mean judgement or payback.
Exactly what she actually describes as our reasons for reincarnation is in fact karma...she might just not understand the word properly...but in any case I am really not concerned with this error because she has actually described the right thing and that is all that really matters...

We should however see the word karma from a different angle in order to understand it properly.

Karma is actually a lower vibrational state which we need to transmute into a higher vibrational state. In the physical world here on earth this transmutation is achieved by our attitudes and deeds and...whatever is the quality of these, is the consequence of the vibrational state we find ourselves in when we die. So the judgement part is non existent because it has got nothing to do with what we did in our previous life because it is 'registered' as a vibrational concept and not a specific act which we performed in the previous life...this is known as abstraction.
This vibrational state, which we are in, at any physical death, is the thing which prevents access to higher dimensions and a real ascension out of the reincarnation cycle.
The way we correct this...lets call it negative state...can be achieved in many different ways but the life is always chosen which would best influence that state of vibration which we need to uplift, with the primary goal of achieving the ascension or enlightened state. This is often achieved by what might appear to be a payback scenario but is not actually the case. Having a tough life is not always the outcome of karma...it could just as easily be a result of our own bad choices in the current one.

Now this is often quite confusing to some because we see some people spend lifetimes in monasteries to achieve the enlightened state and others are living in a back street alley and also somehow achieve enlightenment...I know of a mother with children who achieved the enlightened state. What is going on here we might ask?

The fact is that there are no rules to achieving this state. We can achieve it in any place we like, eating any food we like, drinking anything we like...as long as our attitude, morals and deeds are in order and that what we do does not effect the life of another in any negative way...and that we love unconditionally. We can achieve this state in 1 day...1 month...1 year...1 lifetime or multiple lifetimes.
The problem is that most people are not aware of this and so do not prepare or work at it.

Like someone once said...”I have worked hard all my life, treated everyone kindly, given everything to the poor, healed the sick and loved even my worst enemies, and still have not achieved enlightenment”...and he was told...”That my dear friend is because you already are enlightened...what did you expect...an interview with God, when that is who you have been all this time?”

Love to all
Ray

[Finefeather]

Maybe, if I had the slightest clue as to what job I was supposed to be doing.

I feel inherently out of place here. I have had that distinct impression all of my life, during the good times and the bad. As time goes on, the sensation only gets stronger. As we speak I am in the town where I spent my entire childhood. Yet I am utterly homesick.

I don't claim to understand the nature of our souls and existence here, but it does seem to me that there are plenty of people relatively comfortable with being human to get the job done without me. Whatever that job is. I don't know what I am, but it isn't human. This is what has been demonstrated to me, time and time again. And no, this is no response to being a social outcast or reject. I've had many friends and very few 'enemies' (which I don't really consider them to be anymore).

I'm kind of at a loss with this..

Damn, you're still in loss. It feels like loss. It's grief. You're losing key components of your little self. The bits that keep it sedated.
I'll cave in here and give you a gem from ACIM (it's okay, it's Jesus)

"I do not know what anything is for"......Lesson # can't remember. Early on.

Anything. ANYTHING. I do not know. But I can know this; that it is for something. It doesn't say 'nothing'.

You're in a great spot. It's not what you're looking at, or what you're thinking. It's how you feel. If you can just not
sedate yourself somehow with distractions, or even answers. Even looking for answers. Give up.

The answer is it wants you to be with it,
and that's not the answer you want.
And it's because it's not the answer that you want that you suffer. It's something you need to do and so you're doing it.
It could feel good to be doing that.

So an experiment? You stay with it. I'll promise you something will happen. At least it will shift, because it's true, 'this too shall pass'.
That aching longing self gets replaced by a determined self. And he holds the ticket. You can't do it without him.
He doesn't stop longing, but he's on to the next experience and the next and the next. His eye stays on the prize.
You're having an experience. It's as holy and divine and expanding as any other mystical experience.
Mystical is mystery. What's it for?
'I do not know.' Later I'll know, and I'm sure I'll be grateful.

I've seen it. If you haven't, the energy of faith is 100X that of evidence. You have 100X more velocity than I do.
What you cannot see, yet know of that defies belief and defines Reality. Now you being in this world, how would you know about that?
From you, who's not from here.

Dreams come true. This dream comes true to itself. It/you/we need to see it's/our fraudulence clearly, before we can do that. I mean all of it.
It's not about sin and evil and guilt and worthiness and manifesting s#it in a nicer package. It's about uncovering the truth.

The truth of you will really surprise you.

Beautiful Post markpierre...thanks
Love you brother
Ray

[Fred Steeves]

Now this is often quite confusing to some because we see some people spend lifetimes in monasteries to achieve the enlightened state and others are living in a back street alley and also somehow achieve enlightenment...I know of a mother with children who achieved the enlightened state. What is going on here we might ask?

The fact is that there are no rules to achieving this state. We can achieve it in any place we like, eating any food we like, drinking anything we like...as long as our attitude, morals and deeds are in order and that what we do does not effect the life of another in any negative way...and that we love unconditionally.


I love it Ray, beautifully put. It's not about memorizing sacred texts(although they do come in handy), it's not about following the rules, and it's certainly not about being a saint.(LOL) Everybody finds their own way home, and in their own unique way.

Each "way" is absolutely perfect, and to be applauded upon completion.

[markpierre]

Now this is often quite confusing to some because we see some people spend lifetimes in monasteries to achieve the enlightened state and others are living in a back street alley and also somehow achieve enlightenment...I know of a mother with children who achieved the enlightened state. What is going on here we might ask?

The fact is that there are no rules to achieving this state. We can achieve it in any place we like, eating any food we like, drinking anything we like...as long as our attitude, morals and deeds are in order and that what we do does not effect the life of another in any negative way...and that we love unconditionally.


I love it Ray, beautifully put. It's not about memorizing sacred texts(although they do come in handy), it's not about following the rules, and it's certainly not about being a saint.(LOL) Everybody finds their own way home, and in their own unique way.

Each "way" is absolutely perfect, and to be applauded upon completion.

Not these weird rules anyway.

The guy who passes out against the roller door behind the bakery every night could be the one guy closest to God. Edging out billions. No one is ever more than one thought away from totality.
It's finding that one thought. Maybe it's the one that got missed. Or it'll be that one because it's missed.
What's interesting is the prospect of acknowledging every single path as exactly equal and worthy and blessed and purposed.
Sanctioned by a bigger mind than ours.
That'll f-up a few people.

Ray; I think that when it's your time, it's your time.

[greybeard]

Ramesh Balsekar (he translated for Nasargadatt before entering the state) said
"God gave you an ego let him remove it"

As far as I can see enlightenment is always an act of Grace--- you cant make it happen.

I think most people on a spiritual path can identify with the opening post.
It would seem to be a normal part of the process.
Stuck in it (negative space) every day would not be the norm though.
It comes and goes with me--- I just watch and let it be--- I dont energise anything by giving attention to it or running away from it.
Chris

[another bob]

The fact is that there are no rules to achieving this state. We can achieve it in any place we like, eating any food we like, drinking anything we like...as long as our attitude, morals and deeds are in order and that what we do does not effect the life of another in any negative way...and that we love unconditionally. We can achieve this state in 1 day...1 month...1 year...1 lifetime or multiple lifetimes.
The problem is that most people are not aware of this and so do not prepare or work at it.

Thanks for your comments, Ray.

You say that there are no rules, "as long as our attitude, morals and deeds are in order and that what we do does not effect the life of another in any negative way..." and also that most people "do not prepare or work at it."


I would say those requirements constitute rules, in the same way that eliminating greed, envy, hatred, and arrogance, and living with integrity, constitute rules.

Furthermore, even following such guidelines will not lead to any enlightened state, since enlightenment is not a reward for good behavior. If anything, enlightenment is good behavior.

Blessings!

[Finefeather]

The fact is that there are no rules to achieving this state. We can achieve it in any place we like, eating any food we like, drinking anything we like...as long as our attitude, morals and deeds are in order and that what we do does not effect the life of another in any negative way...and that we love unconditionally. We can achieve this state in 1 day...1 month...1 year...1 lifetime or multiple lifetimes.
The problem is that most people are not aware of this and so do not prepare or work at it.

Thanks for your comments, Ray.

You say that there are no rules, "as long as our attitude, morals and deeds are in order and that what we do does not effect the life of another in any negative way..." and also that most people "do not prepare or work at it."


I would say those requirements constitute rules, in the same way that eliminating greed, envy, hatred, and arrogance, and living with integrity, constitute rules.

Furthermore, even following such guidelines will not lead to any enlightened state, since enlightenment is not a reward for good behavior. If anything, enlightenment is good behavior.

Blessings!
Hi bob, thank you for your comment which reminded me of the difficulty in trying to get a concept across with the limitation of mere words :)

I can see that if you use this sentence in isolation that this statement is questionable but I was following on from the sentence above in the context of institutional style perceived rules of becoming enlightened...like monasteries, group meditations, guidance by gurus, esoteric texts to learn or study etc...against the fact that enlightenment has taken place single handed, out of these perceived enlightenment achieving environments. In this context their are no rules. Of course you cannot achieve anything unless you practice the requirements for what you intend achieving...so in this context their are rules.

Yes enlightenment is not a reward for good behavior in the context which you have written...but I could just as easily argue that if, as you say "enlightenment is good behavior" then the incentive for good behavior might be the reward of enlightenment.

From an occult point of view, or even an out of body state, where everything is energy and vibrational states, including our own Self, we can clearly see what effect good behavior has on the surrounding environment.

Love to you
Ray

[another bob]

...I was following on from the sentence above in the context of institutional style perceived rules of becoming enlightened...like monasteries, group meditations, guidance by gurus, esoteric texts to learn or study etc...against the fact that enlightenment has taken place single handed, out of these perceived enlightenment achieving environments. In this context their are no rules. Of course you cannot achieve anything unless you practice the requirements for what you intend achieving...so in this context their are rules.


Thanks for your response, Ray!

In fact, if we were to examine the historical record, we can see that there does appear to be a correlation between dedicated study with authentic masters and the achievement of awakening. For example, there's a saying in Zen, that zazen (zen meditation) does make one enlightened, but does make one more "enlightenment-prone". In other words, certain practices and environments and associations have been proven beyond doubt to facillitate the necessary turnabout in consciousness that awakening represents. In fact, the lone individual awakening on their own is more the exception to the rule, such as Ramana Maharshi and Hui Neng.


Yes enlightenment is not a reward for good behavior in the context which you have written...but I could just as easily argue that if, as you say "enlightenment is good behavior" then the incentive for good behavior might be the reward of enlightenment.

If so, it will never amount to enlightenment. In other words, if one is behaving well in order to achieve some goal, it is based on some sense of self, and yet, it is only in seeing through and letting go of that very self-sense, along with any gaining idea, that true unconditional behavior can manifest (what we would call "enlightened behavior").

Blessings!

[greybeard]

Its very confusing for me.
Certainly it seems that while there is no reward---endeavour should me made.
My intention has been to know the Truth as long as I can remember and to that end there is a lot of time spent every day.
Yogananda called it the "Magnificent obsession"

One teacher I spent time with the late Dr Goels the kundalini guru in India.
He said "Make no mistake God does not love everyone equally, He loves those the most who love Him the most"
That threw me.
With Ramana---it could well be that past life devotion did the trick.
I accept I cant make it happen but do what I do and surrender to the will of "God"

Chris

[another bob]

Its very confusing for me.
Certainly it seems that while there is no reward---endeavour should me made.


"The continuous effort comes to be effortless. In other words, what has been attained through a constant practice is finally transcended, and then comes spontaneity." ~Ma Anandamayi

"Effort is necessary up to the state of realisation. Even then the Self should spontaneously become evident, otherwise happiness will not be complete. Up to that state of spontaneity there must be effort in some form or another. There is a state beyond our efforts or effortlessness. Until it is realised effort is necessary." - Sri Ramana Maharshi


“Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not be convinced that effort will take you nowhere. The self is so self-confident that unless it is totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal conviction is not enough. Hard facts alone can show the absolute nothingness of the self-image. " ~Nisargadatta

[AwakeInADream]

How should one express their love for God?

I have experienced God's love very briefly, and I know that it's not something I can reproduce and send back.
That experience of 'real' love is something I long to have again, as it makes me all too aware that any love or emotion I can generate here is synthetic.

To simply experience this state of grace again would be more than suitable reward for anything I could achieve over any amount lifetimes.

Perhaps our only true goal is to one day manifest this (almost unobtainable) real spiritual force that is 'higher love' in the physical world?

[another bob]

How should one express their love for God?

I have experienced God's love very briefly, and I know that it's not something I can reproduce and send back.
That experience of 'real' love is something I long to have again, as it makes me all too aware that any love or emotion I can generate here is synthetic.

Your very longing is Love's expression, the language or voice of Love for God.

One night a man was crying,
Allah! Allah!
His lips grew sweet with the praising,
until a cynic said,
"So! I have heard you
calling out, but have you ever
gotten any response?"

The man had no anwer to that.
He quit praying and fell into a confused sleep.

He dreamed he saw Khidr, the guide of souls,
in a thick, green foliage.
"Why did you stop praising?"
"Because I never heard anything back."
"This longing
you express is the return message."

The grief you cry out from
draws you toward union.

Your pure sadness
that wants to help
is the secret cup.

Listen to the moan of a dog for its master.
The whining is the connection.

There are love dogs
no one knows the name of.

Give your life
to be one of them.


Rumi

[greybeard]

Well this sure isn’t a negative space now---smiling

Respecting the OP validity though

Chris

[Finefeather]

If so, it will never amount to enlightenment. In other words, if one is behaving well in order to achieve some goal, it is based on some sense of self, and yet, it is only in seeing through and letting go of that very self-sense, along with any gaining idea, that true unconditional behavior can manifest (what we would call "enlightened behavior").

Hi bob...sorry just took a break to eat :)

I notice you refer to eastern type interpretations of enlightenment which seems to emphasise the loss of 'self' as a sign of enlightenment and the gaining of naught.
This is not strictly correct, although it may serve one instance of enlightenment achievement, because while this term, 'self', is usually interpreted as some lower order of manifestation which we need to 'let go of', we do actually have a Higher Self which is still individual in terms of being an offspring of one of the Logi of this Solar System. Enlightenment is quite simply a change from operating in a lower order of mind to a higher order of mind...in the physical body...and with this comes in time the destruction of the Causal or Kama Body...which ends the cycle of fixed rebirth...we are still able to incarnate when we choose to. The letting go of the 'little self' or lower mind way of thinking is done at the point of higher thinking because the positive qualities required for the occult process of enlightenment is found in the higher mind.

Many people have achieved what could be called a state of Nirvana, I have done this myself, but this is often not permanent and this proves to me that this state is merely another trick in the book which can be learnt and experienced. It does not make these people enlightened, it just means we can perform occult type tricks with our minds...what this does take though is practice with a goal in mind and I can assure you that during this state you have no thoughts of your body or your lower mind. We need to avoid thinking of enlightenment as some state where we can perform magical tricks with our mind and body as has been so often seen in the east by gurus and other 'holy men'.

To manifest these higher qualities in physical bodies we still need to we aware of our bodies and give them attention...unlike some in the east who believe we need to virtually starve it to death. This is an old outdated thinking because our goals are not to leave earth existence but to live on the earth in a state where higher thinking is the norm. This means that in time enlightenment will be a common phenomena as can be seen in the world today where more and more souls are waking up. Enlightenment is our true nature and there are many thousands of enlightened beings on this earth right now at this time...many don't even know it, but they sure sure act it.
Love to you
Ray

[Beren]

How should one express their love for God?

I have experienced God's love very briefly, and I know that it's not something I can reproduce and send back.
That experience of 'real' love is something I long to have again, as it makes me all too aware that any love or emotion I can generate here is synthetic.

To simply experience this state of grace again would be more than suitable reward for anything I could achieve over any amount lifetimes.

Perhaps our only true goal is to one day manifest this (almost unobtainable) real spiritual force that is 'higher love' in the physical world?

Indeed. Goal is to be aware of it.
Sheer ecstasy - the connection with God.

[another bob]

If so, it will never amount to enlightenment. In other words, if one is behaving well in order to achieve some goal, it is based on some sense of self, and yet, it is only in seeing through and letting go of that very self-sense, along with any gaining idea, that true unconditional behavior can manifest (what we would call "enlightened behavior").

Hi bob...sorry just took a break to eat :)

I notice you refer to eastern type interpretations of enlightenment which seems to emphasise the loss of 'self' as a sign of enlightenment and the gaining of naught.
This is not strictly correct, although it may serve one instance of enlightenment achievement, because while this term, 'self', is usually interpreted as some lower order of manifestation which we need to 'let go of', we do actually have a Higher Self which is still individual in terms of being an offspring of one of the Logi of this Solar System. Enlightenment is quite simply a change from operating in a lower order of mind to a higher order of mind...in the physical body...and with this comes in time the destruction of the Causal or Kama Body...which ends the cycle of fixed rebirth...we are still able to incarnate when we choose to. The letting go of the 'little self' or lower mind way of thinking is done at the point of higher thinking because the positive qualities required for the occult process of enlightenment is found in the higher mind.

Thank you for your comments, Ray!

In some ways, we are merely disagreeing on terms. However, based on the above, I would counter that both "self" and "Self", higher and lower, are ultimately merely fantasies of interpretation on perception, and with true awakening, all such interpretations are rendered moot. In the meantime, please also note that no human being has ever achieved enlightenment, in the true sense, since the human mechanism is not capable of handling such energies. Rather, we can use this vehicle to awaken, and even achieve liberation from what you call "the small self", but that is not true enlightenment (imho). Perhaps here we can just agree to disagree?



Many people have achieved what could be called a state of Nirvana, I have done this myself, but this is often not permanent and this proves to me that this state is merely another trick in the book which can be learnt and experienced.

Again Ray, strictly speaking, Nirvana is not a state nor achievement, and whatever you believe you may have realized, I would submit that it is not Nirvana. This is not to deprecate your efforts or deny that you are sincere in your comments, but simply to point out that Nirvana means extinction, and one does not go in and out of extinction. In fact, it entails the paradoxical recognition that there is indeed nobody to become extinct, that indeed there never was such a character, or even some "higher self", except as a matter of interpretation on perception.



...in time enlightenment will be a common phenomena as can be seen in the world today where more and more souls are waking up. Enlightenment is our true nature and there are many thousands of enlightened beings on this earth right now at this time...many don't even know it, but they sure sure act it.
Love to you
Ray


Indeed, Ray, enlightemnment is our true nature as immortal light beings, but I would offer that we have set that recognition aside in order to experience this human life. Moreover, the pursuit of enlightenment is not really why we are here, and I certainly don't expect a mass awakening like you seem to have invested in. As I mentioned, there are no enlightened beings, only enlightened activity, and I really don't see any signs of that increasing these days, but am always open to being proved wrong.

I have also elaborated on some of these same themes here, if you would like to explore:


http://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.com/2012/12/17/school-of-life-play-of-light/

http://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/the-myth-of-enlightenment/

Blessings!

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Indeed. Goal is to be aware of it.
Sheer ecstasy - the connection with God.

As well as sheer boredom, doubt, and discomfort. In fact, there is never any lack of connection, except in our imagination.

Blessings!

[Orph]

In fact, the lone individual awakening on their own is more the exception to the rule,

Well, I guess I'm kind of screwed. :lol: :haha:

[Freed Fox]

In fact, the lone individual awakening on their own is more the exception to the rule,

Well, I guess I'm kind of screwed. :lol: :haha:

You and me both, brother. Then again, maybe that's why we've been drawn to Avalon...

[another bob]

In fact, the lone individual awakening on their own is more the exception to the rule,

Well, I guess I'm kind of screwed. :lol: :haha:

You and me both, brother. Then again, maybe that's why we've been drawn to Avalon...

Indeed -- the vehicle of community, or what Buddha called Sangha, is certainly a powerful tool in awakening. In fact, Buddhists consider it part of the "Triple Gem", which consists of the Awakened (who serve as a demonstration of that possibility), the Path to Awakening, and the Community of aspirants devoted to awakening.

Each of us is given exactly what we need at any given time to awaken. All we need do is be open enough to receive.

Blessings!

[another bob]

In line with some of the themes considered here in this discussion, I would like to offer a very thoughtful and encouraging essay I just came across, called: Everyone Is on a Path Toward Wisdom and Compassion



http://brightwayzen.org/everyone-is-on-a-path-toward-wisdom-and-compassion/


:yo:

[markpierre]

In fact, the lone individual awakening on their own is more the exception to the rule,

Well, I guess I'm kind of screwed. :lol: :haha:

You and me both, brother. Then again, maybe that's why we've been drawn to Avalon...

Anyone who ever told you that waking up was a lot of stuff we'd associate with love was a fraud. It's not easy or fun.
Not if you mean it.
You meet all of your demons. The fear demon and the pissed off demon seem to have duplicates. Self doubt too.
The rest are all just weird and unanticipated. Very little 'love and light'. Not yet.

If you're not up for it, stay a sleeping human. See, you made that choice already and you don't like it but you know it was the right one.

You really are screwed.

[greybeard]

In fact, the lone individual awakening on their own is more the exception to the rule,

Well, I guess I'm kind of screwed. :lol: :haha:



You and me both, brother. Then again, maybe that's why we've been drawn to Avalon...

Anyone who ever told you that waking up was a lot of stuff we'd associate with love was a fraud. It's not easy or fun.
Not if you mean it.
You meet all of your demons. The fear demon and the pissed off demon seem to have duplicates. Self doubt too.
The rest are all just weird and unanticipated. Very little 'love and light'. Not yet.

If you're not up for it, stay a sleeping human. See, you made that choice already and you don't like it but you know it was the right one.

You really are screwed.

Amen to that Mark and of course there is no guarantee or money back offer for "That" which we signed up for.
It hardest most time consuming "course" that I ever started.
However I would not opt out.
I am surrendered to the fact that unaided I can not do this.
Help comes--
The level of that help from members who are fellow travellers here is valued greatly by me.
There is so much knowledge and experience shared-- I am truly grateful

Chris

[Finefeather]

Hi bob and all.


In some ways, we are merely disagreeing on terms. However, based on the above, I would counter that both "self" and "Self", higher and lower, are ultimately merely fantasies of interpretation on perception, and with true awakening, all such interpretations are rendered moot. In the meantime, please also note that no human being has ever achieved enlightenment, in the true sense, since the human mechanism is not capable of handling such energies. Rather, we can use this vehicle to awaken, and even achieve liberation from what you call "the small self", but that is not true enlightenment (imho). Perhaps here we can just agree to disagree?
I have heard this theory, on the human mechanism been unable to be fully enlightened, many times and I must admit I also thought this was so for a while. I have since realised that this is not true anymore...and the catch word here is 'anymore'. The answer lies in the nature of physical matter in our Solar System, and is quite complicated, so I will attempt a rather inadequate statement.
At the time of the enlightenment of the Buddha around 400BC the quality of matter was inadequate for human enlightenment and his enlightenment was made possible by the use of what is termed, permanent atoms. These are basically atoms which have been subjected to an evolutionary or upliftment process, which has the same effect we see with radium, which can be called an enlightened element. The permanent atoms used by the Buddha in his enlightenment came from the highest adepts in our system at that time, but, because of their still relative low order he was unable to sustain the forces for long periods. Everyone has permanent atoms at the centre of their Being and they are usually only partially 'awakened'. It is these permanent atoms which facilitates or causes enlightenment. Enlightenment is a quantum process which is driven by evolution and our own will and doing.
Since the discovery of radium around 1898 new breeds of elements have started to appear on the planet because just as we become more and more 'awake' so too does the mineral kingdom and the plant kingdom and the animal kingdom...which will allow us to experience enlightenment on the physical plane. There are many now who have gone through this enlightenment albeit that it was for short periods only. By the way...the Christ consciousness in 'Jesus' the man was also made possible with the same permanent atoms used by the Buddha and the halo we see depicted in pictures of saints is the result of the enlightenment process of kundalini. Kundalini is the 'snoozing' force waiting to be turned on fully at enlightenment and is the same force known as radio activity.
We are slowly becoming radio active :)



Again Ray, strictly speaking, Nirvana is not a state nor achievement, and whatever you believe you may have realized, I would submit that it is not Nirvana. This is not to deprecate your efforts or deny that you are sincere in your comments, but simply to point out that Nirvana means extinction, and one does not go in and out of extinction. In fact, it entails the paradoxical recognition that there is indeed nobody to become extinct, that indeed there never was such a character, or even some "higher self", except as a matter of interpretation on perception.
This is the meaning of Nirvana from Wiki for what it is worth.

Nirvāṇa is an ancient Sanskrit term used in Indian religions to describe the profound peace of mind that is acquired with moksha (liberation). In shramanic thought, it is the state of being free from suffering. In iHindu philosophy it is union with the Brahman (Supreme Being).
The word literally means "blown out" (as in a candle) and refers, in the Buddhist context, to the imperturbable stillness of mind after the fires of desire, aversion, and delusion have been finally extinguished.
We can see that it's only reference to extinction is the 'putting out' of desire etc...and we should not try to read into this more than there is.
My experience of many people's literal interpretations of words has led me to one conclusion and that is that if we have not personally experienced it we will never really know what it really means. Falling into the intellectual trap without having the first hand experience is a common occurrence today. We believe we can learn experience and learn wisdom. We study for years without experiencing anything. Once something is known by experience it takes only one moment to recall all the details, but trying to write the details down the way we know it becomes a different matter when we write from experience or write from intellectual learning.
Nirvana is a state and an achievement as far as the individual Self is concerned and if we need to go a little deeper we could ask ourselves who, ultimately, is experiencing this state as an individual Being...or who, ultimately, has achieved this state as an individual Being...and if we want to be clever or philosophical we could say that there was no achievement in the first place because that state was always achieved to start off with. But this kind of philosophical thinking, which many Zen and Buddhist students (no disrespect tendered) dish out is merely the mind wondering off into the intangible. The truth of the matter is that we are created in the way we are for a reason...and if we think that we are here just to be lead around in circles then we are surely missing something. Every achievement every individual reaches contributes to the larger whole and when this great cycle is over the Whole or ONE will be richer and more experienced and thus more wiser...for the next round.
The same as this years BMW is better than last years BMW...the future is destined to be more advanced than the past :) ---I only have a little KA :)



Indeed, Ray, enlightemnment is our true nature as immortal light beings, but I would offer that we have set that recognition aside in order to experience this human life. Moreover, the pursuit of enlightenment is not really why we are here, and I certainly don't expect a mass awakening like you seem to have invested in. As I mentioned, there are no enlightened beings, only enlightened activity, and I really don't see any signs of that increasing these days, but am always open to being proved wrong.

The pursuit of enlightenment is exactly why we are here...because the entire universe is expanding and growing and with this growth comes more awareness or consciousness which is the very thing we are adding to each time any individual has an experience. The song of the ONE has always been...go out into the world and do whatever you like, be selfish, be kind...be aggressive, be gentle...be fearful, be loved...be happy, be sad...be positive, be negative...hate me and love me...loose me and find me.

Love to All
Ray

[Beren]

I wonder how we can put all this knowledge into freely available usage form...
I mean - ready to apply- form.

I experienced one thing ,others another but what connects us all here is that essence is always the same.
How to convey this essence in mindset of nowadays folk?

Today's mind is ever busy, running around.
Message is to get calm down so you can listen the voice of God (Love frequency) but many are simply unable now to calm down due to life experience on the planet now.

Is it necessary for Sun to be absent for literal three days so that many will be re-set?
Too much noise around and too thin a hope that among this noise a Love voice will be heard.

Or simply it's time for a God's move on a big scale so that this noise be silenced so we can hear ourselves begging us to be Love?

These things are popping on my mind daily since chaos that we as humans (and external factor) created is enormous!
We have such a little time to do something before everything collapses. I mean everything.

Thoughts of flood in ancient time comes to mind with clearer explanation of why...
Flood as a reset in ancient time and what today as a reset?

[greybeard]

Respectfully. To anyone who thinks there is no such thing as enlightenment in this world.
Kundalini awakes and restructures the body in order that a higher state of consciousness can be the in-dweller with out frying the circuits. (Nervous system)
Adyashati speaks freely about this happening before and after his awakening.
He also states more are awakening now---Dr Hawkins said that this time the potential for enlightenment is 1000 time greater than before.
He and others have said that their are levels of enlightenment but there is a final door to be walked through about the same level of the Buddha or Christ.

Echkart and Hawkins both said that from a higher perspective what we call enlightenment is viewed as kindergarten elsewhere.

Chris

[AwakeInADream]

I wonder how we can put all this knowledge into freely available usage form...
I mean - ready to apply- form.

I experienced one thing ,others another but what connects us all here is that essence is always the same.
How to convey this essence in mindset of nowadays folk?

Today's mind is ever busy, running around.
Message is to get calm down so you can listen the voice of God (Love frequency) but many are simply unable now to calm down due to life experience on the planet now.

Is it necessary for Sun to be absent for literal three days so that many will be re-set?
Too much noise around and too thin a hope that among this noise a Love voice will be heard.

Or simply it's time for a God's move on a big scale so that this noise be silenced so we can hear ourselves begging us to be Love?

These things are popping on my mind daily since chaos that we as humans (and external factor) created is enormous!
We have such a little time to do something before everything collapses. I mean everything.

Thoughts of flood in ancient time comes to mind with clearer explanation of why...
Flood as a reset in ancient time and what today as a reset?

Do you mean a 'Dark Night of the Soul' for the whole of humanity?

That God should leave us for a while so that we will be more able to perceive him when he returns?

I'm hoping that we are already coming out of one of those...Or maybe somewhere in the middle of one...
(but then I suppose things could get much worse:()

[Finefeather]

Do you mean a 'Dark Night of the Soul' for the whole of humanity?

That God should leave us for a while so that we will be more able to perceive him when he returns?

I'm hoping that we are already coming out of one of those...Or maybe somewhere in the middle of one...
(but then I suppose things could get much worse:()
Hi AwakeInADream
God has gone nowhere...it is us that have got lost...he is waiting patiently for our return...so he can get all the goodies we have collected for him :)
Love you
Ray

[another bob]

We are slowly becoming radio active :)

Hi Ray!

I guess you decided not to take me up on my offer to agree to disagree, eh. :(

In any case, as interesting as it might be to share differing views and concepts about these esoteric matters, I really don't think that such discussion fits the topic of this thread, so I will refrain from more lengthy verbiage in response. I will say this much:

over the course of many years, I've encountered numerous and often contradictory views on these matters, some quite creative, but there are those that I have come to trust, based on personal recognition through direct experience. I have certainly encountered the occult angle that you propose here, and having examined its merits, rejected it, as have many whom I respect as sages and realizers. The energetic quality of real Enlightenment represents a particular vibratory frequency which is incompatible with this density. You simply cannot fit a ton of potatoes in a five pound bag.

Furthemore, I have discovered that, as intriguing a phenomena as kundalini is, it has little to do with true liberation. The mind can continue to fixate a subtle identity of self even in universal (cosmic) consciousness. To cling to Oneness is a very subtle fixation of consciousness. It's still a form of grasping. It's very subtle. But when it collapses, you are even beyond "I am That". You are in a place that cannot be described, but which certainly has nothing to do with the chakra system or halos around saints or radioactivity.

Ken Wilbur, when asked about the number of fully liberated people on earth today, answered that there were problably less than 10. I have heard similar assessments from various other folk who seem to keep track of such things. There are certainly many more who have awakened or are in the process, but still have more work to do before full liberation, where all identity, both individual and universal, self or Self, is transcended. All in all, however, they still represent a statistically insignificant factor, and as I mentioned previously, I don't really see that changing, despite your new agey optimism.

Finally, in terms of why we are here, you are welcome to your speculation, but I will stand by my own realization. Ultimately, that is something each will need to discover for themselves, regardless of our lovely notions.

Blessings!

[another bob]

Echkart and Hawkins both said that from a higher perspective what we call enlightenment is viewed as kindergarten elsewhere.Chris

Indeed! This is what I have also learned, which is the reason for my original comments in that regard.

Blessings!

[another bob]

That God should leave us for a while so that we will be more able to perceive him when he returns?

You are God (Source), experiencing and expressing and enjoying Itself in the form of you. There is no leaving or returning involved.

:yo:

[greybeard]

Hi Bob
When Dr Hawkins was alive he gave a similar statistic for the number fully awakened/enlightened.
Adyashanti is stating that its in the 100s now.

Dr Hawkins attracted a lot of negative comment but I have to say that several books of his that I read gave the fullest detail on the subject of enlightenment of any that I have read.
Discover the presence of God within/Devotional non-duality and "I" brilliant.
I follow teaching not the teacher to be clear and all is cross checked to the best of my ability---however and its a big "however"--knowing about is not "It."
I suppose its whatever encourages you to keep going.

Neale Donald Walsh was asked if there was one message God could give us what would it be?
"You got me all wrong" I checked.

So that's my thoughts of the moment.

Chris.

[another bob]

Neale Donald Walsh was asked if there was one message God could give us what would it be?
"You got me wrong" or was it "You are wrong about me" --near enough.

Hmmm . . . I always thought it was "Don't worry, be happy"

;)

[greybeard]

Neale Donald Walsh was asked if there was one message God could give us what would it be?
"You got me wrong" or was it "You are wrong about me" --near enough.

Hmmm . . . I always thought it was "Don't worry, be happy"

;)

Hi its on the Eckhart Tolle Neale Donald Walsh video I very recently posted here.
Near the very end.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=619601&viewfull=1#post619601

Chris

[another bob]

[QUOTE=greybeard;620229]Neale Donald Walsh was asked if there was one message God could give us what would it be?
"You got me wrong" or was it "You are wrong about me" --near enough.

Hmmm . . . I always thought it was "Don't worry, be happy"

;)

Back around 1974 or so, I used to frequent a nice little vegetarian restaurant in the Mission District of San Francisco, called "The Good Karma Cafe". It was a real treat to go out in those days, and given that there was a famous killer gang roaming the city, (the Zebras), slaying random white people, it was a bit risky taking a bus, but I knew it was not my time to die yet, so I took the chance, in order to enjoy their great spicy bean burgers.
There was a big poster of Meher Baba on the door as you left, with the quote "Don't worry, be happy!", which made a good impression on me, as I ventured out into the killing grounds of the city, and they usually also provided a free copy of some "alternative" periodical that consumed the time on the ride home.
Only once was I confronted by a gang while on the corner waiting for my bus. They circled me menacingly, attempting to provoke some emotional response, but I remained non-reactive, thinking instead of the poster and its advice, and they eventually tired of their game and left me alone.



http://i50.tinypic.com/2daawhw.jpg

[Flash]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU brake time right on topic



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

[Freed Fox]

Thanks everyone. It may not all be exactly in line with the OP, but I appreciate the depth of discussion and won't discourage it.

I'm well aware that this is a process which includes confronting ones demons. I feel as though I have conquered some of mine, but a number of others seem just as strong as ever. 'Going back to sleep' has of course struck me as a simpler option, but frankly it's out of the question. I've gotten at least far enough that I can't consider living like that again. Further, I can't say that there's nearly enough in my mundane existence to keep me vested in it.

On a related note, how many of you have felt like you've stumbled backward on your path? Not so much that you fall into despair (which occurs along the way) but actually lose some of the progress you've made? If you have (and since got back on the right track), do you see it as a detrimental thing, or did it help in some way?

[Orph]

I can't say I've gone 'backwards', but things do seem to come to me in waves. Kind of like being on the beach. The waves wash up, then go out. Then wash ashore again, ... and so on. I seem to make some headway, and then the feeling goes away. At some point, it comes back again. Anymore I'm learning to just go with the flow. When it "appears" to go away, I don't sweat it, or try to hold onto it. It'll come back. But I don't look at it as going backwards. If you drive your car down the road, and then turn around and go back the same way, you're really still going forward. And even though you're going down the same road you just came from, you're still in a different lane and seeing things from a different point of view. In other words, don't "judge" yourself as going backwards. You're just moving, that's all. Nobody takes a straight path.

[greybeard]

Thanks everyone. It may not all be exactly in line with the OP, but I appreciate the depth of discussion and won't discourage it.

I'm well aware that this is a process which includes confronting ones demons. I feel as though I have conquered some of mine, but a number of others seem just as strong as ever. 'Going back to sleep' has of course struck me as a simpler option, but frankly it's out of the question. I've gotten at least far enough that I can't consider living like that again. Further, I can't say that there's nearly enough in my mundane existence to keep me vested in it.

On a related note, how many of you have felt like you've stumbled backward on your path? Not so much that you fall into despair (which occurs along the way) but actually lose some of the progress you've made? If you have (and since got back on the right track), do you see it as a detrimental thing, or did it help in some way?

Thanks for your tolerance of the way the thread has wandered.
There have been times when--- I felt abandoned by "God" low and lonely, no one to talk to who could identify, share. reassure me.
I found in the books those who had gone before and that was uplifting.
It felt like I had fallen back because there had been a few moments of bliss however that was my perception of the moment--- some time the moment latest months.
The lows were important because one can look for the highs and identify with them.

I found the book "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle a great help.
I took the advice he gave about labelling, judging, commenting and now can say that my mind is virtually quiet and certainly not troublesome as it was before.
There are many videos much advice on the thread http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.
It has a sticky as the intention is for it to be a resource easily found. That thread is there as long as Avalon permits it to be a sticky which is much appreciated.
So much good advice/sharing/thread disappears in hours---which is a pity.
I like videos/audios as I can wander about the house with wireless headphones on and any low is short lived.
With a silent mind, being in the moment, all is well.

Best wishes
Chris

[Fred Steeves]

On a related note, how many of you have felt like you've stumbled backward on your path? Not so much that you fall into despair (which occurs along the way) but actually lose some of the progress you've made? If you have (and since got back on the right track), do you see it as a detrimental thing, or did it help in some way?

Two steps forward, one step back. At times more or less either way. The scars resulting from "mistakes" along the long and winding road are badges of honor Freed Fox. Personally speaking? I cherish every one of them.

fUO7N-zSMYc

[gripreaper]

On a related note, how many of you have felt like you've stumbled backward on your path? Not so much that you fall into despair (which occurs along the way) but actually lose some of the progress you've made? If you have (and since got back on the right track), do you see it as a detrimental thing, or did it help in some way?

What I've learned over the years, is that the body is like a 5 year old child, and it takes time to imbed a new energy signature into the body. I've also learned, that energy moves in an ascending and descending spiral, so, while the change occurs, we revisit the old pattern (not as intensely) and move up the spiral.

So, it's not so much a returning to an old pattern, as much as it is a taste of how much further you've come, IMHO.

[markpierre]

Thanks everyone. It may not all be exactly in line with the OP, but I appreciate the depth of discussion and won't discourage it.

On a related note, how many of you have felt like you've stumbled backward on your path? Not so much that you fall into despair (which occurs along the way) but actually lose some of the progress you've made? If you have (and since got back on the right track), do you see it as a detrimental thing, or did it help in some way?

Feeling like you have is normal. Not knowing better is okay too. Remember that individuals who are consciously aware of progress or a feeling of digress,
are on their way out. They may still be altar boys or pagan godesses, if they're sincere, they've found the bus. They're on it. You're on it.
Whatever's here that's alive, remembers itself. I don't think immediately or anything like that. But maybe like bang bang, like popcorn. Maybe next Tuesday.

The individual decides how much time they want to take. Only all those individuals would know how much. Not me, so I don't worry about it.
You prod yourself a lot, and so I think you must be in a hurry.
So I wouldn't worry too much. Spend that energy on feeling miserable while you still can.

[Rich]

I have experienced God's love very briefly, and I know that it's not something I can reproduce and send back.
That experience of 'real' love is something I long to have again, as it makes me all too aware that any love or emotion I can generate here is synthetic.


You can eventually access that love at will, I had to go thru some major spiritual awakenings but it is possible thru meditation.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?3779-Meditating-simply&p=621379#post621379