I'm having a mental-breakdown: between "spiritual" .vs. everyday's "PHYSICAL" reality

[niki]

I am a truth-seeker from Indonesia,..and I'll be straight-forward honest and bold here, as I believe, as any GENUINE Truth-seekers must:

For all the 'oh-so-beautiful, hopeful, & fantasy' talks about these "spiritual, Higher-Dimensions" world/existence/multi-universe/other Beings etc etc, I (and I'm sure many already damn tired people) still don't see any HARD, SOLID PROOF of those things existing in my everyday's reality/real-life!

Critically-speaking,..I have lost so much hope after the whole "new-agey" December 21st 2012 NOTHING happened as prophesied/channeled/discussed often in this forum (instead, very sadly, I only see soo many irresponsible, endless "excuses" from all these so-called "New Age gurus, Ascended Masters, channelers, Galactic Federation Light" bla bla...more like another damn SCAMMERS & dirty new-age snake-oils men.....rotten human beings!!).

But now, I even lose like almost 99% of respect, when all I see here is just some endless (& pointless??..) talks & discussions only, about these so-called "spiritual existence" things, that unfortunately/sadly still don't have any HARD, SOLID PROOF in my (and OUR) everyday's reality/real-life !

Where is the PROOF of what all of you're talking here?..
Why so much discrepancy between all these oh-so-wonderful-and-fantastical "spiritual existence", and versus our everyday's damn "PHYSICAL" reality/real-life/real-world??..

Or, the worst possibility: could it be that ALL (or most) these talks here in this wonderful forum is just what those critical atheists/skeptics/scientists often scoffed and -rightfully so- dismissed as another mere human's wishful-thinking/creative-Imaginations/theory/stories/ideas, and mind/brain-tricks?!...

I'm sorry,... I guess I've finally had enough of only mere "sugar-coating, wishful-thinking, beauty-candy, woo-woo" baseless talks.
time to get to the HARD TRUTH,...that is, if I do still want to survive (and not go insane) in living in this everyday's seemingly mundane, ordinary "PHYSICAL" (or what's often termed as "3D" dimension here, whether it's true or not..!) reality/real-world/real-life!

This is your chance to speak about what's the REAL truth, to perhaps convince me back so I can perhaps still have FAITH in all these "spiritual, Higher-existence" often talked in this otherwise wonderful forum!..

Regards, with honesty and critical-thinking,
truth-seeker from Indonesia,
-Niki-

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

I find that the more experience and empathy you acquire, the more "supernatural" experience you will have.
The more worrisome and self conscious you become, the less you will be able to see.

I am not a New Ager (that I know of) and don't see a Guru (but i do see a shrink),
but neither am I analytic like you nor educated like these people.

they will have to counter the barbs!!! hoy!

[donk]

Not sure about you, but the only thing (new-agey, mundane, or not) that I know to be real, is the belief that I have free will--I am not even completely convinced that even that is real, but it sure does seem like it--enough that I use it as a frame of reference, a sort of grounding, I guess.

I do not personally know how to leave my body, commune with (or even see/hear/feel) extradimensional beings, bend and/or fold space-time, or focus my intent to manipulate the 3D mundane reality we seem to share.

The only thing I have, that I can do, the only illusion of control in my existence, my reality--which I project on any being I can relate to, is that "I AM". I can choose how think and feel, how to experience the reality I happen to be in, knowing that this is all that I know for certain: HERE & NOW.

Everything else seems to be all different levels of bulls**. Or fun s***. That's what you get to choose--how you take your s***. Which all depends on how YOU CHOOSE to look at it.

I totally understand how you feel. The way I found to change that mentality is to get to know myself a little. Then a synchronicity, the all of existence, will come along and tap you on the shoulder and say--hey, think you know everything? Check this out! ...and then you are on way to knowing yourself, which is all that matters...well, it doesn't even matter, really, but it is all you can do...IMO.

I'll share one of those syncronicities that happened to me, when i needed it most, I came across this in a novel I was reading (Even Cowgirls Get the Blues, Tom Robbins):

"I believe in everything; nothing is sacred.
I believe in nothing; everything is sacred.
Ha Ha Ho Ho Hee Hee."

I used to leave the last part out. I kinda like it these days. Can't take anything too seriously. You might have a mental breakdown or something :p

Anyway, I turned my own mental breakdown around when I was able to let go everything I thought I knew. I wish I could tell you how.

Hope something I said makes sense, and helps...

[ulli]

Try to do your own observing, and stay on the 3 D path for now. Earn a living, keep it simple.
When you run into trouble, which may well happen one day, and you can see no way out,
project a secret wish into the unknown ...
maybe reach an imaginary arm out, to your own future self of thirty years hence,
a self that would be wiser and have survived
all those current inner conflicts. Of course you might need to at least allow for the possibility that time can sometimes be transcended. Time is such a mystery.

If I had never had personal experiences that showed me that other dimensions exist I would never have come to a forum such as this, nor even read books about it.
I would still be buying Vogue magazines as reading materials.

So what prompted you to come here in the first place?

[greybeard]

Hi Niki
have a look at this thread.
Its not true that nothing happened----something happens everyday of course.
However the Mayans were not expecting an event to happen on that specific day--just a new calender
There is a time frame when they do expect something to happen though and we are about a year to go to the end of the specified period.
I look at many different areas baically simple science that I can understand and spirituality.
There are cycles and at this moment in time a lot is happening in the solar system which may well be a precurser to what we would call events.
The magnetic pole is moving at an accelerated rate.
The weather could not be described as normal--- fish and birds dying in vast numbers.
Sun fluctuations---- suspiscious observers worth listening to regarding this.
Increased UFO sightings.
There is a lot going on.
Dont loose hope Niki.
Chris


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?53342-This-Energy-is-Intense-&p=602255&viewfull=1#post602255

[Camilo]

The practice of meditation may help you to get out of this apparent spiritual maze you find yourself in at the moment. Hang in there niki, I guess we all have been the at one time or another. It's only temporary. Follow your Spirit without hesitation.

[Pam]

I understand what you are saying and feeling as I could have written your words at one time, Niki. I spent so many years in a quest for spirituality that spoke the 'truth' to me. I whittled away the organized religion and the hypocrisy and continued on to endless philosophies and beliefs. I ended up where you are at this time, discouraged, angry, and depleted. That left me with myself. I never trusted myself nor did I feel I could ever have contentment and peace of mind without something outside of myself to believe in. I did not want to be absolutely miserable and cynical forever so I decided to trust myself and attempt to be the truth I was looking for outside myself. I decided to accept reality as it is . If I felt it could be better, than I can do something to try to change, otherwise I leave it alone. I always attempt to stay in the present moment.

I know my solution doesn't sound impressive. The odd thing is that it works. It works better than all the prayers and chanting and channeling and this and that. It does take practice as well. If you are truly fed up with the things you have mentioned try this. This searching outside ourselves seems to be an endless cycle. If you are looking for the truth you will not find it out there. If you are looking for the opium of the masses you will find it out there. I give you my best Niki pam

[Heartsong]

Go back in your lifetime and find a time when "everything is all right" or you had the feeling that "I could live this way, it feels ok". It may have been a moment or a month, any age or circumstance.

What were the elements that composed that period of time? What part did they play? what did they mean to you?

Start from there, and think about your circumstance now. Where do they differ what is the same?
Keep these in mind as you walk each ordinary day and duty.

Sometimes reflection on where you are and where you've been will lead you forward. In any case it will create new things to think about and you'll be able to replace your disappointment and anger.

Then your path will start again and you'll carry with you the insights you've gained in your life.

[ExomatrixTV]

'Truther Councelor' John Kuhles Helping Conspiracy Researchers who are Fed Up with 'New Agers': http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54887-Truther-Councelor-John-Kuhles-Helping-Conspiracy-Researchers-who-are-Fed-Up...

[donk]

I know my solution doesn't sound impressive.

I think it sounds impressive. Also, a much better version of what I was trying to say...thanks pam

[Sidney]

Niki, I so understand your frustration. I was never sold on the ascension, although I did think there was a possibility that some sort of solar even could happen around the december date, and Ive never had an OOBE. But I have had plenty of paranormal experiences involving ufo type stuff. My guess is the majority of the craft belong to the US military, and/or other world governments.
Back to the 21st. I had hoped that after the 21st dec that things would start settling down. But things have only gotten more chaotic world wide IMO.

Now that the distractions of Dec 21 end times games is over, I am forced to look to my own personal life and focus on finding solutions to make my life better, healthier.

I have very much lost my faith. And I can't wrap my head around the fact that any loving God would allow the suffering and violence in such mass quantity a our planet. I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion, so I will just say that you have every reason to feel discouraged and disappointed. I do believe in other dimensions. I do believe that some people can tap into them and we most likely all have the ability built in to our DNA, but I also think that one has to be mentally,physically, and spiritually open and at ease for it to happen, and that there are many many determining factors that go into the circumstances of being able to experience it.

For example, I take medication and I believe brain chemistry can play into these things.
I have unfinished emotional business with people that keep part of my psyche closed down.
I have read that after people do detoxes and de-plaque the pineal gland that they are better able to tap into certain levels of altered states.

I too have been looking for the answers outside of myself, and wallowing in self pity, playing the victim etc.

I right at the beginning of what Peterpam described. Looking at myself,cleaning up my own reality, finding solutions without expecting someone else to help me make it happen. These are hard lessons to learn in life and sometimes we have to sacrifice ALOT in order to find peace.

For what its worth, I have not yet found it, but i will never give up looking, and the only place left to look, in the end, is inside ourselves.

[Peace of Mind]

All the 2012 stuff and alien hype are distractions. They were purposely put there to condition you into thinking that there is something else greater than you, if you stay naive to your own power… you’ll stay a slave. I believe this was the undercover plan.
I came to this forum years ago because the interpretation of the 2012 event in the alternative news was far different than what I’ve learned in my youth. This time was always supposed to be a time of awareness, and for the most part, I see that prediction coming true.

People are becoming aware of the fallacies, becoming aware of the injustices, becoming aware of the negative energies they emit into reality. Soon they will smack themselves upside the head because they will then realize that everything they see in life is a mirror/reflection of their own thoughts. Most of the 2012 hype was to get you to submit your power to destruction and negativity. Get enough people to buy into that idea and you’ll have a lot of puppets doing your bidding.
But what happened? You (and others) are becoming aware that much of this stuff is irrelevant to what really matters, becoming aware that most of this stuff is not going to do anything worthwhile for you or others, becoming aware that you have been bamboozled, becoming aware that you and others will have to actually live life/make the actual moves/be pro-active.

We are all becoming aware that we need to go within in order to change what we see on the outside. What you see is the done deal it can’t be changed on the outside; you have to change your thinking so the world changes to your thinking. As of now most of us are being tricked into accepting negativity. Get enough people to think like that and that’s all their lives will consist of. What happens next…. they’ll talk about it daily, live it daily.

If your desires don’t manifest it’s because the sensations attached to those desires are most likely twisted. Many people grow up with their emotions screwed up, as a child they may have been chastised, abused, neglected. If your parent/guardian yells at you for being curious, or seems uninterested when you successfully achieved something, or hits/attacks you when you actually did a good thing…then your interpretation of sensation may be the issue. Meditation can remedy this because it forces the person to search deep and long. In doing so these past traumas resurface in the mind so you can deal with them through your heighten awareness. You’ll be surprised at how many people walk around thinking /feeling various degrees of happiness because this is what was unconsciously taught to them when they were young. Being a parent is probably the most delicate job in the world, because many Kids were turned into disempowered beings by their parents, unknowingly.

If you want anything in this world it will only materialize if you apply the sensation to the thought. Want money think of what you’ll do with it, feel how it’ll make you feel, it’s all about the sensation. You won’t get the money If you find yourself thinking of ways you can’t have it…as so many of us do subconsciously. Many people fail in life because they fear, they fear getting promoted, getting money, having love in their life. The sensation and fear tactics are strong in this world for a reason, and it also doesn’t help the unsuspecting person when they are heavily entrenched in someone else’s drama.
This is the time of awareness, and I love it.

Peace

[RMorgan]

Hey mate,

Well, listen to the advice of another fellow skeptic:

Some things exist, even if they can´t be proved to exist. You have to learn to live with the unknown.

Of course, you are the one who´s going to chose what to believe or not.

However, sooner or later, you´ll be confronted with things you never imagined to be possible.

You´d better be ready for this day.

As a good skeptic, you must stay open minded. Some things go way beyond proof, evidence and other things involved in this universe called "reality".

Cheers,

Raf.

[Peace of Mind]

Just to add a better example: A lot of people want to be rich, but at the same time these people associate being rich with being corrupt…so their views and sensations/feelings are twisted. Therefore, their manifestations will not be to their liking. The same can be said with politics and their other worldly views. This is the only reason I can see why some people struggle in materializing what they actually want. The issues are deep and may be seated in their experiences as a youth. This can only be remedy by the individual.

Peace

[andrewgreen]

The best thing that could happen to you. Made you realise 99% of what people say, especially those with things to gain (selling books, publicity. selling advertising space, government agenda's through alternative media) is not worth paying attention too. Now after your truth has been shattered you can pick yourself up and go on your own journey instead of other peoples. Bon Voyage!

[Freed Fox]

You posed a very similar question in a different thread, not long ago, right here; http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54291-the-harsh-Reality-nevertheless...

Frankly, between the responses given there and the replies here, there should be something you find satisfactory. If not, then either you are too entrenched by the negativity in your own life or you simply aren't willing to accept an answer that doesn't magically fix everything.

Do not underestimate the power of perception. Yours lately has been decidedly negative.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

You posed a very similar question in a different thread, not long ago, right here; http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...evertheless...

Frankly, between the responses given there and the replies here, there should be something you find satisfactory. If not, then either you are too entrenched by the negativity in your own life or you simply aren't willing to accept an answer that doesn't magically fix everything.

Do not underestimate the power of perception. Yours lately has been decidedly negative.


Ponder on that for a while Niki!

You apperently made a consious decision to go along with the 2012 theme for a good while, youre expectations were to high, and now we are supposed to anwser your questions according to your OP, will any anwser satisfy you, or will you become even more angry and disapointed by the anwsers and then be disapointed by us from your perspective?

Dont slam your doors shut just yet, this stuff takes time to digest.

[soleil]

niki, this post makes me want to ask you why you wanted to join avalon? it seems like you are doing a lot of waiting for things to happen, instead of making things happen. to be fair with you, if you believe this is all HOKUM, then we cannot 'convince' you. why should we??? to be honest, (more so) you cannot solve your current problems in the same plane that they exist.

honestly you dont seem to be in the place of mind where you are ready to know for sure....and you seem to have enough walls put up where you may not even believe or understand what little proof or advice will be given to you. believe me, i am as much at the beginning as you are. but instead of looking outward for answers, i've looked internal. i've found more answers inside me than outside.

thats all i want to bother saying on this thread...

[Mulder]

I am a truth-seeker from Indonesia,..and I'll be straight-forward honest and bold here, as I believe, as any GENUINE Truth-seekers must:

For all the 'oh-so-beautiful, hopeful, & fantasy' talks about these "spiritual, Higher-Dimensions" world/existence/multi-universe/other Beings etc etc, I (and I'm sure many already damn tired people) still don't see any HARD, SOLID PROOF of those things existing in my everyday's reality/real-life!

Critically-speaking,..I have lost so much hope after the whole "new-agey" December 21st 2012 NOTHING happened as prophesied/channeled/discussed often in this forum (instead, very sadly, I only see soo many irresponsible, endless "excuses" from all these so-called "New Age gurus, Ascended Masters, channelers, Galactic Federation Light" bla bla...more like another damn SCAMMERS & dirty new-age snake-oils men.....rotten human beings!!).

But now, I even lose like almost 99% of respect, when all I see here is just some endless (& pointless??..) talks & discussions only, about these so-called "spiritual existence" things, that unfortunately/sadly still don't have any HARD, SOLID PROOF in my (and OUR) everyday's reality/real-life !

Where is the PROOF of what all of you're talking here?..
Why so much discrepancy between all these oh-so-wonderful-and-fantastical "spiritual existence", and versus our everyday's damn "PHYSICAL" reality/real-life/real-world??..

Or, the worst possibility: could it be that ALL (or most) these talks here in this wonderful forum is just what those critical atheists/skeptics/scientists often scoffed and -rightfully so- dismissed as another mere human's wishful-thinking/creative-Imaginations/theory/stories/ideas, and mind/brain-tricks?!...

I'm sorry,... I guess I've finally had enough of only mere "sugar-coating, wishful-thinking, beauty-candy, woo-woo" baseless talks.
time to get to the HARD TRUTH,...that is, if I do still want to survive (and not go insane) in living in this everyday's seemingly mundane, ordinary "PHYSICAL" (or what's often termed as "3D" dimension here, whether it's true or not..!) reality/real-world/real-life!

This is your chance to speak about what's the REAL truth, to perhaps convince me back so I can perhaps still have FAITH in all these "spiritual, Higher-existence" often talked in this otherwise wonderful forum!..

Regards, with honesty and critical-thinking,
truth-seeker from Indonesia,
-Niki-

I agree with you. In fact, when you live in poorer countries life is more difficult and many people have no money so there's almost no chance to "self-actualise" because they spend all their time worrying about keeping their homes and finding food. I personally think this sugar-coated talk is just to keep the more aware "sheeple" placated - waiting and hoping that they'll be saved through a "rapture" etc. while their rulers are slowly enslaving them.

[Peace of Mind]

Spending most of your time worrying is a sign of defeatism, its pure disempowerment. Disempowering the people by having them think they can’t survive without government has been an ongoing mission. The people’s trust in self and each other has been eradicated, how else do you sustain without trust in your fellow man/woman? How hard is it to actually band together and be responsible for each other? It’s only hard because they were torn down spiritually and/or became spiritually weakened by taken on ill advised practices. They were turn against each other by inflating the ego, people became selfish, trusted less, and cared only for their own….when this happens people will always suffer.

Trickery is often use against the masses; they’re swindled to adapted to such negative beliefs that do nothing but divide them internally and externally. I don’t like sugar coating either, seeing issues for what they really are is how you (anybody) should deal with the issue, you’ll get nothing done pretending or waiting around for others to assist…just do your part so others can do theirs. Never get used to making excuses, Don't give up because you don't see enough from others, they may be waiting for you to do your small part so that their small part will materialized and become recognized and undeniable. No one is on this planet to create waste...be it time or energy. We depend on each other and without that unity we will struggle.

Once a nation/people are divided amongst themselves… they can be conquer. America is in the process of having this happen to her too. Just look at all the false flags, media propaganda, and fear porn. It’s robbing the people of their ambitions, turning them against each other, turning people into procrastinators. They clearly see the problems but are too scared (disempowered) to do what they can because they were programmed with fear.

We have been conditioned so well that we often ignore those people pointing out this obvious feat, We are tricked into becoming easily annoyed by those seeking to do nothing but help. The disempowered will roll their eyes, suck their teeth, attempt to make false perceptions of the helper just to ease their own confused state of mind, in the least...their look to debate it into nonsense strictly because their implanted flawed beliefs were put in jeopardy by common sense….

If we keep this up..… America will become a poor country too…or a country ruled by corporations. Why? Simply because the country’s inhabitants lost their way, they are too preoccupied following deceptions while disliking their neighbors in the process. They adopted blind rage and became reluctant to heed advice because they don’t trust anyone nor do they trust themselves. I often wonder why man loves to follow the trickers and loath at those showing them the actual schematics to the devious designed plans...

We are becoming oblivious to the obvious. Everything is hidden right in front of your face, but many can’t see it because they are too afraid to take their hands away from their eyes. If you find yourself, you’ll believe in yourself….shortly after …you’ll find your power. Be who you came here to be and stop following the hype machine. If you don’t see the examples…then be the example.

Peace

[SKAWF]

if everything we have been told is a lie,
and this world is controlled by those who maintain slaves...

then at some point..... if you want to live a different way..
the old life has to break.
otherwise you are only adding to... that which was already there.

ive had so many breakdowns that i became aware of whats left when all else was broken.

me.

underneath it all is a part of you which will never break, but we rarely ever get to see it.

so now, i have no problems with being permanently broken.

in fact, its actually more like being 'fixed'

no longer do i struggle to maintain a dysfunctional 'life'.

enjoy it.

you are on the verge of shaking off the chains that keep you a prisoner.

[Sith73]

The first step is understanding what you are. Where are you on the spiritual path? Spend time in nature when you can, calm your mind, fill your heart with love, look inside yourself for the answers. If you meditate any, think of yourself as a sun beaming light outwards. We all need to hold the light. Another thing you should understand is this planet has been in darkness for thousands of years manipulated like you wouldn't believe by physical and non psychical beings including humans such as the cabal and or the illuminate. Its a combination of many factors. The negatives have done a good job at keeping us down and when you understand how its been done you will get pissed off. Believe me there many good races in our sector of space making sure we make it. Without help from behind the scenes that's just say things down here would be very grim . Don't expect them to come downstairs and save us that's not going to happen. We have to step up and take responsibility. Some of us know why we are here and doing what needs to be done here in life wherever we are on planet. Life in general can beat us down and we have to learn to pick our self's up and keep trucking. Whatever you do don't give into negativity, don't feed fear based ideas.

Believe me you are loved more than you know and you are not alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Deega]

Thanks Niki, challenging Tread, a few remarks on your different comments.



Critically-speaking,..I have lost so much hope after the whole "new-agey" December 21st 2012.
Hmm!, you seem to be a little bit to much dependent on what others can do for you..!, and IMHO, you would find answers inside yourself.

As you have read here, most Avalon members didn't have much hope on NewAge paradym and it doesn't seem that they are affected somehow by it!



But now, I even lose like almost 99% of respect, when all I see here is just some endless (& pointless??..) talks & discussions only, about these so-called "spiritual existence" things, that unfortunately/sadly still don't have any HARD, SOLID PROOF in my (and OUR) everyday's reality/real-life !

Hard proof, there is so many things that we are not able to completely proved, the phenomenon of breathing, the phenomenon of digesting, the phenomenon of thinking, etc!

Asking for proof is like telling us, try if you will, you will not be able to convince me... !

Proof is difficult to do, sciences are on ever searching for proof, time bring us always nearer to a new discovery that will set in motion numerous other searches and on, and on.

IMHO, the world we live in is a miracle, so this ain't easy to proof, you will concured.

Time bring explanation (proof) to unknown, so with a little bit of patience, you may see some proof on the making, and if you turn inside, you will get answers in time.



This is your chance to speak about what's the REAL truth, to perhaps convince me back so I can perhaps still have FAITH in all these "spiritual, Higher-existence" often talked in this otherwise wonderful forum!

Niki, may I asked, what is REAL truth for you?

IMHO, go within, and you will eventually find answers that are right for you. You put to much importance on WORDS, find LOVE, peace will eventually be with you.

All the best to you.

[Anchor]

I am a truth-seeker from Indonesia,..and I'll be straight-forward honest and bold here, as I believe, as any GENUINE Truth-seekers must:

For all the 'oh-so-beautiful, hopeful, & fantasy' talks about these "spiritual, Higher-Dimensions" world/existence/multi-universe/other Beings etc etc, I (and I'm sure many already damn tired people) still don't see any HARD, SOLID PROOF of those things existing in my everyday's reality/real-life!


....

This is your chance to speak about what's the REAL truth, to perhaps convince me back so I can perhaps still have FAITH in all these "spiritual, Higher-existence" often talked in this otherwise wonderful forum!..
-Niki-

Challenge accepted.

Niki,

You seem to me, as I read this, like a strong fish, trying to swim against the flow. Desperately seeking the comfort of the known.

Have you considered the possibility of just relaxing, going with the flow and being more observant of both the external and internal world instead of trying to force the issue?

The answers are within you. The guidance is within you.

Reflections of those answers are mirrored in your creation - the one that revolves around you. You can look for them outside, but everyone tells me its faster to look inside.

Most often, you will never be "given" proof that satisfies the endlessly critical and sadly finite and limited mind - a finite mind lost in an infinite sea with guaranteed unknowns.

If you somehow were to be given a measure of proof that you find broadly satisfactory, you would still doubt it.

If you were given incontrovertible proof that changes your world, there may be an element of manipulation involved and infringement on your highest free-will desire to seek the truth in your own way.

Or, it could be legitimate, the time may simply have come, the preconditions met for this stage on your path. This kind of proof is rare in my experience (which is not as much as many on this forum who are older and more traveled than I).

You may if you are observant notice proof that is personal to you - and from there your faith develops.

Faith doesn't usually get switched on and active from nothing to something, it develops.

There is first the seed; the seed sprouts - on acquiring nourishment and light it grows.

Along the way you may need a teacher, and when you do you will get one - don't worry about it.

Sometimes that teacher wont be a person, you may meet him/her in your inner world. Sometimes, like in my own case it turns out to be actually yourself.

[Chris Gilbert]

The best way to experience "higher vibrations/other dimensions" is by plunging in directly via meditation, practices like qigong or remote sensing. Waiting for Dec 21 or other prophecies to pan out is folly, and I'm not surprised that many were let down by the 2012 bandwagon.

[GarethBKK]

Commit random acts of kindness. Smile at everyone you meet. Treat everyone you meet better than you would have yourself treated. Forgive everyone. Laugh as much as you can. Feel the knots of tension unwind in your gut. Treat each moment as a gift. Show as much compassion as you can. Never expect anything in return. In short, open your heart. Give in order to receive.

[bennycog]

Hey mate,

Well, listen to the advice of another fellow skeptic:

Some things exist, even if they can´t be proved to exist. You have to learn to live with the unknown.

Of course, you are the one who´s going to chose what to believe or not.

However, sooner or later, you´ll be confronted with things you never imagined to be possible.

You´d better be ready for this day.

As a good skeptic, you must stay open minded. Some things go way beyond proof, evidence and other things involved in this universe called "reality".

Cheers,

Raf.

What RMorgan says is so true..

My addition.

Leading yourself to be obsessed by a date and having it let you down is depressing and it would have happened to a few people here.. You have to realise that you need to comb through information yourself. Go into many tangents of knowing. Then one thing will pop up and show you in your mind that you are on the right path..
We all have different paths and things to do.. there is nothing that will change who you are only how you percieve things..

You may be going too deep too quick.. maybe go back to things with real hard evidence like 9/11 and pretty much any shooting in the US.. You will eventually be lead into the ritualistic nature of them and the spritual side will come looking for you..

And we are all here to help you in any way we can, you will never be ridiculed ok :)

[Rich]

What is it you're trying to accomplish Niki? :)
If your intention is clear then people could give you ideas on how to get there.

[niki]

Glad to see some responses, especially from some Open-minded skeptics type alike (the latter usually can understand my thoughts & questions better, because of the same/similar experiences).

But, here's the crucial important & straight-forward question (again, from the skeptic point-of-view/shoes) :
HOW to truly *differentiate* between what's a truly REAL "Higher" experiences,
and what's just a mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination, as well as suggestive-thinking and the very powerful "GROUP-think" psychological effect??...

because, if we all here are really truly genuine truth-seekers, we have to at least acknowledge & admit that all those "brain" and "psychological" effects above are REAL , and often happening to a mere human beings, and as a sad consequence, there are already WAY too many people/humans got TRAPPED by those dirty, sick snakes-oil, conman artists, fake gurus, channelers etc that unfortunately are either only want these gullible people's money, attention, status, popularity, or they are ignorant.

And if I may suggest, in order to really help, you all have to consider that this is a question coming from a totally *different* set of crowd, ie: the skeptic, critical-minded, and usually of the scientist & atheist/agnostic type. So, in order to make your point(s) really go through, you have to at least try to consider answering from their SHOES/point-of-view, and perhaps even responding back using some *scientific* terms (or mindset). Just saying honestly.

[eaglespirit]

HOW to truly *differentiate* between what's a truly REAL "Higher" experiences,
and what's just a mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination, as well as suggestive-thinking and the very powerful "GROUP-think" psychological effect??...

Hi nik, wishing you well!

Sit quietly with a sunrise or sunset in such a personal connective way that you feel one and the same as creation...
and create!

That is the simplest way I know to quiet the complex...and become the 'higher experience'!

[sineck]

Listen to your heart. Dont listen to anyone. If life, and the understanding of existence needed help they in turn would put out an adverstiment in the local paper. Rely on nothing and no one. But always be there to help and learn. Truth is a very simple thing for me. There is a word in two parts. One part is to for> the other part is give. This is the basis of our lives. Now this is my opinion. All of us have one. Just once look in the definition, and one will see that all rely on its path.

[GarethBKK]

So, in order to make your point(s) really go through, you have to at least try to consider answering from their SHOES/point-of-view, and perhaps even responding back using some *scientific* terms (or mindset). Just saying honestly.

Nobody is 'trying to make a point'. Everyone is trying to be of help by suggesting that if you really want to experience what others are talking about, you alone must make the decision. It means removing doubt and having faith - as Anchor eloquently said above - and ceasing the fight with life. On David R. Hawkins Map of Consciousness, where are you?

http://happy-firewalker.blogspot.com/2009/06/dr-david-hawkins-map-of-consciousness.html

[Anchor]

Niki,

When you go to sleep at night - you know you are going to wake up. Everyone does, and they dont give it much thought - but they don't know why they go to sleep in the first place.

What use is science in explaining that odd act of consciousness called dreaming?

Do you dream?

Why?

What branch of science is it that interests you?

What use is science in explaining something as simple as innovation?

Evidently, you were lied to about 21-Dec-2012.

You feel bitter about it. Perhaps you feel like you were taken for a fool? Who is judging whom?

So you walked down a path with a dead end! So what, pick another.

Plenty of time.

Anchor..

[Fred Steeves]

Hooray! Another "convince me" challenge from niki.(LOL) Niki, if you are being truly genuine, and not just merrily stirring the old you know what pot, this is what I would do were I you. Shut your search down right now, every last bit of it, all engines stop.

Leave it all behind and don't look back, you'll be glad you did.

Seriously. :)

[TraineeHuman]

niki, I have four university degrees from very prestigious universities, but most of the individuals I've come across in my life who were the most truly and relentlessly dedicated to searching the truth out rigorously were "spiritual" people. I've known a number of individuals fairly well over long periods who were absolutely obsessed with searching out the truth -- and they were all extraordinarily intelligent, but they were also "mystics". They were smart enough to search out the inward truth, about themselves, as well. I've also known or met many academic researchers who were at the top of their field worldwide. These people often weren't "spiritual", but outside their field of specialisation they were usually very ignorant about important things like relationships or how to bring up kids.

Also, for example, Japan didn't have any such thing as mental hospitals until some time in the eighties. That was because people with psychoses would be sent to be students with the Zen masters. The Zen masters had a cure rate of over 90% within several months -- which is off the charts unheard of when you compare it to anything that psychiatrists achieve. What I'm saying is that here's just one example of how the "advanced" genuine people involved in "spirituality" are also very expert in greater sanity. They may not be as loud as so many fools whom you can find everywhere -- a fool being simply someone who doesn't know that he/she doesn't fully know/understand.

Many of the predictions regarding December 2012 were insane. Why did you give them a second glance even? Why didn't you use or develop the critical ability to see they were nonsense? I mean, you can't somehow end famine in one day. That doesn't make any sense. I was saying that well before the date.

Also, you need to consider that just because for you personally all kinds of "spiritual" realities seem to be fantasies, that may well be because you haven't begun to discover how some such things are more vividly real and certain than anything else -- once a person genuinely experiences them. I can't experience them for you -- you have to do it all yourself. It's certainly not easy, or quick. Nobody can or will hand them to you on a plate, either.

It's certainly also the truth that the ruling elite are still doing unspeakably monstrous things. But they have been doing that for thousands of years. I mean, for over a thousand years the popes repressed all discoveries in science and medicine (and alternative medicine), because they had an agenda to keep life expectancy at thirty, or thirty-five.

That, again, can't be changed overnight.

[mahalall]

"Japan didn't have any such thing as mental hospitals until some time in the eighties. That was because people with psychoses would be sent to be students with the Zen masters. The Zen masters had a cure rate of over 90% within several months" Trainee Human

Some Old Agers,

Might say its time to come home, breathe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati

peace be with you

[RMorgan]

But, here's the crucial important & straight-forward question (again, from the skeptic point-of-view/shoes) :
HOW to truly *differentiate* between what's a truly REAL "Higher" experiences,
and what's just a mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination, as well as suggestive-thinking and the very powerful "GROUP-think" psychological effect??...


Hey Niki,

Being totally honest with you, well, I must say that there´s no real 100% effective way to differentiate.

As I said, we just have to learn to live with the "not knowing".

Want an advice? An experience is an experience. Nothing more, nothing less. It´s just more data to your truth seeker data-base.

Independently if you label an experience as a hallucination, suggestive-thinking or a paranormal event, what really matters is that it really happened at some level.

I could tell you something like "Use your discernment and you´ll know the true nature of things", but I wont say that because it´s a lie.

We´re all biased and there´s no real discernment for biased minds.

However, we can at least try to be unbiased, my friend, by never ignoring something because we simply don´t believe it´s possible, and by never accepting something without questioning it first.

Just be cool, mate. You´re making some pretty hard questions that go way back to the fundamental existential questions. No one will be able to answer you accurately...You´ll have to learn to live with that.

Raf.

[Mu2143]

.....................................

[conk]

Your reality will be a manifestation of some form of thought. Do not let this action be the result of what THEY are thinking. You are the creator! Do your job and create a place where you are happy and at peace. Also, see my signature. And the tired of adage is always in truth: What you resist, persists.

[Freed Fox]

Even scientifically, true objective reality is VERY elusive. That's why I would have to agree with Raf and others who have suggested that we must be willing to accept that we really cannot know.

Case in point; light has been observed by physicists to exist as particles AND waves simultaneously! This is in direct conflict with the understanding we had previously, that it must be one or the other.

Nothing that we experience is really a direct experience. Everything you touch, smell, hear, or see is processed by your brain, after the nerve impulses actually reach it. Even on the way to the brain, these impulses are typically filtered through the sensory organs themselves.

In fact, there is definitive proof that we CANNOT experience objective reality entirely, by virtue of our vision. We can only perceive a small band of the electromagnetic spectrum. We know that microwaves, radiowaves, etc exist, but only because we've developed the tools to measure and detect them. No one can say how much else there is out there, which we are simply not yet able to detect or perceive on any level at all.

I'm no expert, but our current understanding is that, really, we have very little understanding at all.

[donk]

An experience is an experience. Nothing more, nothing less. It´s just more data to your truth seeker data-base.

Awesome! Love it. Best "advise" to a "skeptic" I even seen. Thanks Raf

[Arrowwind]

All I can say is that when the times get rough that's the best time to find something to give away. Give of your energy to something, a project, a person, a cause. I think this may help you.

When you think you dont have enough, are loved enough, or lack in any kind of way "the give away" is your way out.

[Eram]

All I can say is that when the times get rough that's the best time to find something to give away. Give of your energy to something, a project, a person, a cause. I think this may help you.

When you think you dont have enough, are loved enough, or lack in any kind of way "the give away" is your way out.

Exactly... because one can only give away what one has...
So If I have all this to give... then I must be rich in love, energy, creation etc.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

All I can say is that when the times get rough that's the best time to find something to give away. Give of your energy to something, a project, a person, a cause. I think this may help you.

When you think you dont have enough, are loved enough, or lack in any kind of way "the give away" is your way out.
best advice in a long time IMO

when you are hurting, try to help others who are hurting.
like pursuing 9-11 truth for the victims,
or profiling criminals for the press,
researching autism when you've given up on your own life,
waking up to the supernatural,

etc. and those are just personal experiences!!

[Sidney]

Niki, Have you ever spent time skywatching. If you want to see something interesting, spend at least 20 hours, on some crystal clear nights from a non-light polluted sky, thats like 10 nights, for two hours each. Get comfortable, sleleping bag, warm clothes (or not if its summer where you are) and watch. Carefully, intentfully. Try speaking (with your mind) up to the heavens and talk. Introduce yourself, and say that you would like to witness something you haven t seen before. Be creative about what you say, but say it with love, and an open mind. Give it 20 hours. 15 minutes at a time won't do it, so put in some real effort.

Also, start writing your dreams down as soon as you wake. Every day for a few months. You will perhaps get a tiny bit of insight, enough to open your mind to many possibilities.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

best advice in a long time IMO

when you are hurting, try to help others who are hurting.

Trust me Niki, its not going to get any better then the above quote, dont get stuck in the hurt either, important.

[Anchor]

best advice in a long time IMO

when you are hurting, try to help others who are hurting.

Trust me Niki, its not going to get any better then the above quote, dont get stuck in the hurt either, important.

Yes, when you are hurting (or remember when you were) you are much better qualified to be of service.

I think thats why the Law Of One refers to those who are here as wanderers as "Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow".

It is not surprising to me that an idea like that resonates well in a forum like this, as the majority of the membership are wanderers.

[Rich]

I once gave away my last pennies to a woman on the street when I didn't know where my next meals would come from, it all turned out well.

[greybeard]

AA "When you feeling blue find some one worse off than you"--- to help.

Or one can sit on a nail and howl----done it been there.

[greybeard]

Proof of the effectiveness of spiritual work has been asked for.
Millions in AA which is a spiritual program owe their lives and sanity to the Twelve Steps of AA.
It could be said that AA came into being by Divine intervention.
The number of people who got sober on their own pre AA could be counted in the tens rather than millions--you were an alcoholic you died or ended up with a wet brain-- there is no cure even today.
So the evidence that the "spiritual" works in every day’s PHYSICAL reality is overwhelming.
I know.

Chris

[Beren]

Many good advices!

Beginning is rough for new seed, all it feels and sees is darkness, coldness, being alone. But the seed doesn't loose hope, it moves, mingles, expands, until it sees first ray of Sun which says " hello" on their language and frequency. "Hello and welcome into new life".

What makes seed to have such an utter faith so it can overgrow darkness and else?
Seed knows. Doesn't believe-it knows that it is a plant.

So who are you Niki?
Who I am ?

We are God (to be).
Learn from seed and its knowledge.
See and feel the seed of you inside who will grow.

Sequoia tree has seeds that are so tiny , like sesame. And they have to live through forest fire to emerge from cone. Literary otherwise they cannot grow. They need fire.
And in the end look how big is General Sherman!
The biggest living organism on Earth...

And he was a sesame size once ...and before this was a vibration of possibility...

I bless you Niki. Overgrow and be!

[niki]

Niki, Have you ever spent time skywatching. If you want to see something interesting, spend at least 20 hours, on some crystal clear nights from a non-light polluted sky, thats like 10 nights, for two hours each. Get comfortable, sleleping bag, warm clothes (or not if its summer where you are) and watch. Carefully, intentfully. Try speaking (with your mind) up to the heavens and talk. Introduce yourself, and say that you would like to witness something you haven t seen before. Be creative about what you say, but say it with love, and an open mind. Give it 20 hours. 15 minutes at a time won't do it, so put in some real effort.

@starchild111 : if I do that, what will really/truly happen?..

and, will it really/truly happen?..
not just some mere wishful-thinking, placebo-effect, group-think, or brain/mind-trick?
is it going to be real?

Please know that I'm asking this genuinely & honestly.
because I'm curious for the 'bigger' truth out-there, that perhaps I just haven't experienced it yet (remember,..I'm a skeptic, but an Open-minded kind of skeptic).
thank you.

[Sidney]

Niki, Have you ever spent time skywatching. If you want to see something interesting, spend at least 20 hours, on some crystal clear nights from a non-light polluted sky, thats like 10 nights, for two hours each. Get comfortable, sleleping bag, warm clothes (or not if its summer where you are) and watch. Carefully, intentfully. Try speaking (with your mind) up to the heavens and talk. Introduce yourself, and say that you would like to witness something you haven t seen before. Be creative about what you say, but say it with love, and an open mind. Give it 20 hours. 15 minutes at a time won't do it, so put in some real effort.



@starchild111 : if I do that, what will really/truly happen?..

and, will it really/truly happen?..
not just some mere wishful-thinking, placebo-effect, group-think, or brain/mind-trick?
is it going to be real?

Please know that I'm asking this genuinely & honestly.
because I'm curious for the 'bigger' truth out-there, that perhaps I just haven't experienced it yet (remember,..I'm a skeptic, but an Open-minded kind of skeptic).
thank you.


Well, my first few encounters, were not deliberate on my part. I merely saw somethings, and decided to pursue it. How can I predict what you will see? I can't. You may see nothing, then will you blame me for your failure of experience?

I have been a(regular) skywatcher for almost 7 years. When skies are clear and weather permits I go out and enjoy the night usually for 1 to 2 hours, depending on my time available. I would say, I have a 70% rate of seeing a ufo.

If you have a genuine interest, all you can do is try it. If you are hell bent on closing your mind to these things then don't waste your time.

[KiwiElf]

Agreed starchild111 - we get a lot of "traffic" here. For all intensive purposes Niki, you will see "stars that move" - these are not satellites or shooting stars. A hunt around on YouTube or here will show you some compelling evidence of these "orbs". In NZ anyways, the window for viewing is between 930 pm - 330 am and they usually fly Nth - Sth or East to West - some appearing with a flash, and some phasing on and off, some coming to a stop or changing direction.

Below is EXACTLY what we are seeing here in NZ on a regular and increasing basis:
(apologies for the language )

8D6FOfxxeNU

Happy "star" gazing ;)

[Grumpy Cat]

OP, my best advice to you is to keep your troubles to yourself, and yourself alone- especially if you are in the presence of professionals or family members/friends who may not "get you". I made the mistake of speaking my mind, and getting too caught up in reading in to seemingly mundane events and the result was that I got sectioned (committed, bunged in a madhouse- whatever you want to call it). And in there you have no hope whatsoever of getting out if you vocalize what you know about reality, such as it is. In there, you play by their (psychiatry's) rules, and no-one elses.

Try to remember that whatever you need most, the universe tends to throw your way.. take some comfort in that fact. It might not be what you want, but it will be definitely what you need. That's the pattern I have noticed in my life. It literally brought me what I needed recently: two lovely, beautiful Spanish girls to my doorstep, and they moved in. This took my mind off a girl who left me long ago, but to whom I remained emotionally attached. Sure, I still think about her, but the newbies' presence has certainly stopped me thinking about her quite so much!

There's many other little things that all add up, too. If you make your mind up about what you want to do, the universe will get out of your way and actually help you. Remember this. :))

These days, although I am a fully functioning member of society, if psychiatry ever found out about how I think, I'd be categorized as a schizophrenic, as would many on this forum I imagine, simply because we think differently, and outside of the metaphorical box of physical life. Luckily the closest they've ever got to diagnosing me as such is Bipolar disorder, which is kinda schiz-lite. As a result they leave me alone- mostly. Some things are better left unsaid.

With all I know now, I still manage to get on with every day life, because what else is there to do? We are here to learn, and discover new things (and strange new worlds, eventually!), but we must learn to live within a society where most of the people are not yet ready to be unplugged. I've done this now, but it has been quite the struggle.

I just want a simple life, and that's what I strive to achieve. A nice modest house, animals, kids, wife. We'd be a family of freethinkers. :D God damn, 22 and I'm thinking of this... I'm getting OLD!

[T Smith]

But, here's the crucial important & straight-forward question (again, from the skeptic point-of-view/shoes) :
HOW to truly *differentiate* between what's a truly REAL "Higher" experiences,
and what's just a mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination, as well as suggestive-thinking and the very powerful "GROUP-think" psychological effect??...



"...What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain..." Morpheus, The Matrix (1999)

In short, it's all a "mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination", to use your words. But enough of that cryptic nonsense (even though it's completely true...lol). If you are truly having an issue grasping what's real outside the range of your physical perception of reality, which as humans can be more or less limited, depending on the person, I would scrap the testimony of what others report to be real, per their "seemingly expanded" range of perceptions, which to you may be nothing but a fanciful hallucination or even a delusion. If you can't see, taste, feel, hear, touch, or taste it, you will surely experience frustration in your current mindset. What I believe you need, to get past this mental road block, is to experience reality outside your range of perception (which is what leads to the expansion of that range of perception and to enhanced perception of reality). In short, this is the process of developing one's perception. It can be very difficult to "prove" what each of us perceive is real, especially if our perceptions of reality are not mutually inclusive; it's easy to prove a spoon exists if we all look at a spoon and agree, as a premise, that we can see the spoon. What's "real" need be perceived in some way, and it would seem to me this is what you are currently having a problem with.

Have you ever seen a 3-d poster in a novelty store? The kind where a certain image appears if you focus on the poster just right? Some people cannot discern an image in the poster, try as they might. It is very fascinating observing people trying to find the pyramid and swimming dolphins amid a bunch of squiggly lines, or whatever the image so happens to be, especially if one person can see it and the other person cannot. And it is even more difficult for the person who can see the image to prove to the person who cannot that such an image exists and is not just a "mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination"...

You will soon begin to see, taste, feel, hear, touch, and taste what you are now considering "fluff" if you practice experiencing that which exists (beyond any doubt) beyond your range of perception. An outstanding discipline to take up and study to achieve these experiences is the study of quantum mechanics. Here you can explore that which exists outside your range of perception (and I don't mean because it's too small to observe with the naked eye) but what you can verify, via perception, scientifically, even though the implications clearly describe reality well beyond human perception, even with the instruments we have to observe the smallest quark.

I will submit, quite confidently, anyone who is still an atheist, or doesn't believe in an underlying reality beyond (3d), after studying quantum mechanics, doesn't truly understand quantum mechanics very well. In any case, this is one way for the "skeptic" to experience for themselves many of the things others seem to perceive as given in our macro world.

[niki]

But, here's the crucial important & straight-forward question (again, from the skeptic point-of-view/shoes) :
HOW to truly *differentiate* between what's a truly REAL "Higher" experiences,
and what's just a mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination, as well as suggestive-thinking and the very powerful "GROUP-think" psychological effect??...



"...What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain..." Morpheus, The Matrix (1999)

In short, it's all a "mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination", to use your words. But enough of that cryptic nonsense (even though it's completely true...lol). If you are truly having an issue grasping what's real outside the range of your physical perception of reality, which as humans can be more or less limited, depending on the person, I would scrap the testimony of what others report to be real, per their "seemingly expanded" range of perceptions, which to you may be nothing but a fanciful hallucination or even a delusion. If you can't see, taste, feel, hear, touch, or taste it, you will surely experience frustration in your current mindset. What I believe you need, to get past this mental road block, is to experience reality outside your range of perception (which is what leads to the expansion of that range of perception and to enhanced perception of reality). In short, this is the process of developing one's perception. It can be very difficult to "prove" what each of us perceive is real, especially if our perceptions of reality are not mutually inclusive; it's easy to prove a spoon exists if we all look at a spoon and agree, as a premise, that we can see the spoon. What's "real" need be perceived in some way, and it would seem to me this is what you are currently having a problem with.

Have you ever seen a 3-d poster in a novelty store? The kind where a certain image appears if you focus on the poster just right? Some people cannot discern an image in the poster, try as they might. It is very fascinating observing people trying to find the pyramid and swimming dolphins amid a bunch of squiggly lines, or whatever the image so happens to be, especially if one person can see it and the other person cannot. And it is even more difficult for the person who can see the image to prove to the person who cannot that such an image exists and is not just a "mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination"...

You will soon begin to see, taste, feel, hear, touch, and taste what you are now considering "fluff" if you practice experiencing that which exists (beyond any doubt) beyond your range of perception. An outstanding discipline to take up and study to achieve these experiences is the study of quantum mechanics. Here you can explore that which exists outside your range of perception (and I don't mean because it's too small to observe with the naked eye) but what you can verify, via perception, scientifically, even though the implications clearly describe reality well beyond human perception, even with the instruments we have to observe the smallest quark.

I will submit, quite confidently, anyone who is still an atheist, or doesn't believe in an underlying reality beyond (3d), after studying quantum mechanics, doesn't truly understand quantum mechanics very well. In any case, this is one way for the "skeptic" to experience for themselves many of the things others seem to perceive as given in our macro world.

@T Smith : I like your response as well, it's not only very detailed, but it's very critical, logical, and as well you've tried to explain it to me by understanding where I'm coming from (unlike many other posts here, honestly..), ie: from a skeptical, disappointed, critical, and preferring SOLID, PROVABLE science , than all these still "unproven" talks about "other/Higher dimension" spirituality stuff..!
and that's why I respect & appreciate your comment-post here (and also a few people here, whom have also responded in similar manner like yours)...thank you, for being understanding with me.

But, if I may think more critically, and ask you even much more deeper question:
so, how exactly can we -and I'll quote your exact sentence above- : "experiencing that which exist (beyond any doubt) beyond my range of perception" ??....

Studying quantum-mechanics does sound very interesting, and I certainly will study more of it. (do you have any good links/websites/info sources about this?)
however, that is still just 'studying-by-theory' , right?..
so, how can I able to experience the REAL thing?...of those things which exist beyond my range of perception?
because, like many seems to say here: "experience will beat any theory"... but, I guess what makes me different than many other people here is that: I've known (based from my own life's experiences & observations) so many FAKE theories/made-up stories/New-Age gurus/conspiracy-theorists etc etc,...that I will become much more critical , in examining the 'experience' .

So please answer my question above.
thank you very much.

[Carmody]

Niki, Have you ever spent time skywatching. If you want to see something interesting, spend at least 20 hours, on some crystal clear nights from a non-light polluted sky, thats like 10 nights, for two hours each. Get comfortable, sleleping bag, warm clothes (or not if its summer where you are) and watch. Carefully, intentfully. Try speaking (with your mind) up to the heavens and talk. Introduce yourself, and say that you would like to witness something you haven t seen before. Be creative about what you say, but say it with love, and an open mind. Give it 20 hours. 15 minutes at a time won't do it, so put in some real effort.

@starchild111 : if I do that, what will really/truly happen?..

and, will it really/truly happen?..
not just some mere wishful-thinking, placebo-effect, group-think, or brain/mind-trick?
is it going to be real?

Please know that I'm asking this genuinely & honestly.
because I'm curious for the 'bigger' truth out-there, that perhaps I just haven't experienced it yet (remember,..I'm a skeptic, but an Open-minded kind of skeptic).
thank you.


A key component is that some skeptics are not open minded. That the use of the term 'honest skepticism' can be a cover for a negative proofing' mindset. It is question that folks may consider asking themselves. :) We all have to watch for it.

I break lots of things on my journey, including myself, every now and then...

from reading the post above...one of the first tricks it to identify the I inside, which is not the body and it's associated responses and interactions.

Increased grasp requires a bigger or changed view.

have you ever seen the movie 'Constantine', with Keanu reeves and Rachel Weis?

There is a scene, where she asks john, Played by Keanu Reeves..to 'prove' what you are asking for. She asked for some kind of 'crash course'.

He gave her one.

That the block in the self- is at least as big as the will to live.

[T Smith]

But, here's the crucial important & straight-forward question (again, from the skeptic point-of-view/shoes) :
HOW to truly *differentiate* between what's a truly REAL "Higher" experiences,
and what's just a mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination, as well as suggestive-thinking and the very powerful "GROUP-think" psychological effect??...



"...What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain..." Morpheus, The Matrix (1999)

In short, it's all a "mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination", to use your words. But enough of that cryptic nonsense (even though it's completely true...lol). If you are truly having an issue grasping what's real outside the range of your physical perception of reality, which as humans can be more or less limited, depending on the person, I would scrap the testimony of what others report to be real, per their "seemingly expanded" range of perceptions, which to you may be nothing but a fanciful hallucination or even a delusion. If you can't see, taste, feel, hear, touch, or taste it, you will surely experience frustration in your current mindset. What I believe you need, to get past this mental road block, is to experience reality outside your range of perception (which is what leads to the expansion of that range of perception and to enhanced perception of reality). In short, this is the process of developing one's perception. It can be very difficult to "prove" what each of us perceive is real, especially if our perceptions of reality are not mutually inclusive; it's easy to prove a spoon exists if we all look at a spoon and agree, as a premise, that we can see the spoon. What's "real" need be perceived in some way, and it would seem to me this is what you are currently having a problem with.

Have you ever seen a 3-d poster in a novelty store? The kind where a certain image appears if you focus on the poster just right? Some people cannot discern an image in the poster, try as they might. It is very fascinating observing people trying to find the pyramid and swimming dolphins amid a bunch of squiggly lines, or whatever the image so happens to be, especially if one person can see it and the other person cannot. And it is even more difficult for the person who can see the image to prove to the person who cannot that such an image exists and is not just a "mere mind/brain-trick & hallucination"...

You will soon begin to see, taste, feel, hear, touch, and taste what you are now considering "fluff" if you practice experiencing that which exists (beyond any doubt) beyond your range of perception. An outstanding discipline to take up and study to achieve these experiences is the study of quantum mechanics. Here you can explore that which exists outside your range of perception (and I don't mean because it's too small to observe with the naked eye) but what you can verify, via perception, scientifically, even though the implications clearly describe reality well beyond human perception, even with the instruments we have to observe the smallest quark.

I will submit, quite confidently, anyone who is still an atheist, or doesn't believe in an underlying reality beyond (3d), after studying quantum mechanics, doesn't truly understand quantum mechanics very well. In any case, this is one way for the "skeptic" to experience for themselves many of the things others seem to perceive as given in our macro world.

@T Smith : I like your response as well, it's not only very detailed, but it's very critical, logical, and as well you've tried to explain it to me by understanding where I'm coming from (unlike many other posts here, honestly..), ie: from a skeptical, disappointed, critical, and preferring SOLID, PROVABLE science , than all these still "unproven" talks about "other/Higher dimension" spirituality stuff..!
and that's why I respect & appreciate your comment-post here (and also a few people here, whom have also responded in similar manner like yours)...thank you, for being understanding with me.

But, if I may think more critically, and ask you even much more deeper question:
so, how exactly can we -and I'll quote your exact sentence above- : "experiencing that which exist (beyond any doubt) beyond my range of perception" ??....

Studying quantum-mechanics does sound very interesting, and I certainly will study more of it. (do you have any good links/websites/info sources about this?)
however, that is still just 'studying-by-theory' , right?..
so, how can I able to experience the REAL thing?...of those things which exist beyond my range of perception?
because, like many seems to say here: "experience will beat any theory"... but, I guess what makes me different than many other people here is that: I've known (based from my own life's experiences & observations) so many FAKE theories/made-up stories/New-Age gurus/conspiracy-theorists etc etc,...that I will become much more critical , in examining the 'experience' .

So please answer my question above.
thank you very much.

Hi Niki,

To start off with, almost everything we readily accept as "real" is based on theory. One may or may not accept any theory to be real, regardless of how generally accepted it is (a theory, by definition, is an abstraction), but one can certainly experience the "real" facts underlying the theory for oneself. That's what I'm driving at when I suggest you study quantum mechanics.

For example, we all take for granite that the universal law of gravitation is real (even though it's just a theory) based on the following equation:

F = G × [(m1m2)/r²]

where F is the gravitational force between two objects, measured in Newtons. M1 and m2 are the masses of the two objects, while r is the distance between them. G is the gravitational constant, a number currently calculated to be 6.672 × 10-11 N m² kg-2. This is all just scientific babble, for sake of our discussion, but the theory that arises from this babble, e.g., two objects exert force on each other depending on their relative masses, is quite real and based on observable data that can be substantiated, over and over again, with facts we observe with our senses. In sum: facts are the raw data we directly observe and experience; theory is an explanation of the "how" and "why" those facts connect together. If you wrote me earlier expressing doubts about whether gravity was real, my first suggestion would be to grab a tennis ball, a golf ball, and a spit-wad and go to the third story of any building, drop these respective objects out the window over and over again, and start experiencing the facts for yourself. It wouldn't take too long before you came to your own conclusions about what gravity is and what it does. You would probably write me back and conclude that gravity was a real thing, and that you concurred with the theory of gravitation as we currently understand it.

Similarly, there are many theories that spawn out of the study of quantum mechanics. Some as bold to assert that the universe itself is a conscious entity (supported scientifically; an argument, btw, which is quite compelling). This theory personally resonates with me, and is something I have no doubt to be true, but for the "skeptic", it can be measured scientifically. Yet other theories postulate that the universe is but a holographic projection. If so, what is the source? Yet other theories mathematically prove the various dimensions and hyper-dimensions of space discussed by the mystics and so-called "New-Age gurus", etc. These are all just theories, yes, but the facts underlying the theories are not in dispute. Therein lies the difference between a "guru" who says something is so, just because she/he says it's so, and a scientist who argues something is so with the kind of observable facts that you seem to take comfort in, judging from your previous posts. The point I was making in my initial post is you can "experience" those facts for yourself and come to your own conclusions; perhaps you will come up with the latest and most compelling Grand Theory of Everything after you experience the facts and share with the rest of us your brilliant insights :)

Here is a start for you: the elementary double-slit experiment. Every high-school physics student has run across this experiment. If you haven't heard of it, Google it. If you have, revisit the very basic set of observable facts underlying this famous experiment. These facts are "real", just as real as the spoon we all agree exists. Here's my theory, after absorbing the facts (albeit simply represented here): the electrons (which are really just reality as we know it rendered down to its most simple and basic component) exist in multiple dimensions simultaneously, an energy field, if you will, outside time/space as we know it, and whose shape and form in time/space, i.e. the "matter component" we can observe with our five senses, are determined by the conscious mind. The electrons do not exist, in the manner we can observe anyway, apart from the mind. Matter, and everything we see, feel, taste, and smell, in the universe, is an epiphenomenon of consciousness by default. In other words, the mind and the object and part of the same thing, indeed are the same thing, which is infinite consciousness. It is very hard for me not to feel God, or All That Is (choose your description of Higher Being) run through me while I experience these facts with my senses.

What's your theory?

[Carmody]

'The closer you are to Caesar, the greater the fear."

One way of saying that the closer you get to the truth, the peak the center of it, in the self, the harder the body and it's design and creation of thoughts push the thoughts away from the things of and rumination that move the self toward revelation.

That the body as the origin point in this, as the creator and driver of the subsystem of ego, the harder it fights to maintain it's position and control of 'self', in the same way it jerks the arm away from the fire. That the autonomous aspects of thought formation push the self away from the true answers.

It is the release and total relaxation that brings the truth home... not the anxious self and the squint and grunt of concentration and control. For the centering into the one point, looking out, this is the curse and small circle of thought that confines the self in the box of the body.

The logic is still there, it is the fundamental of logic and thought formation that must change to the open view and open rumination... into a different method and way. That what we are born with is not the tools and self we end up with at the end point. That the journey and the seeker are one.

Another great source is the film "Who's Driving the Dreambus?" This film works quite well. See if you can find a copy/download of it.

Here's a man who does some talks in the film:

RNAqNJByrvw

[niki]

@T Smith & @Carmody: thank you for the intriguing responses!

My main question is still the same, however: how can I now really experience those 'new' things?.. (of course, without all the Brain-trick or placebo-effect or group-think psychological factors!)

What's the first step ? Astral projection/travel??...meditation?...

Anyone can help me here in this forum?

[Realeyes]

Hi Niki,
I haven't had time to read your thread, and am late for an appointment. Forgive me if what I say below has already been repeated.

The best way I have found is out of body experiences to really KNOW you exist far beyond your physical body.

The best book imho is Adventures Beyond the Body by William Buhlman - it will tell you everything you need to focus on and how to enduce and achieve such an experience (which is not a mediation).

There is nothing like peeling out of your body, seeing your sleeping body from a distance whilst now existing in another body (mirror of the physical) that you can touch and pinch etc, feels solid, walking through a door or wall, or flying over to a friend's house and see what they are doing and then getting this confirmed the next day from your friend.

This process will then prove to you that what near death experiencers talk about is much more than a brain dying as you will be having these experiences when your brain is very much alive.

You could even get a friend to write something on a piece of paper, place it on a top shelf somewhere. Then you go and have an out of body and read it. Then tell the friend what you saw the next day.

At the end of the day, it is via your own experiences you will KNOW. Reading book upon book about how to drive a car for instance is very, very different to actually driving a car.

The more one explores out of body experiences, you will have the opportunity to travel into other dimensions and see for yourself first hand what this is like and how it works and also the different mind-states of consciousness one can experience.

Must dash....
Much love Realeyes :hug:

[niki]

@Realeyes : very succinct, clear, and logical comment-post! this is what I'm also looking for!
thank you very much,
and will soon check out that book recommendation.

Also, the "Proof of Heaven" by Dr. Eben Alexander is probably similar like your recommended book, plus this is viewed from actually a neurosurgeon (Scientist)'s perspective & his own experiences! it has become one of my favorite book now.

[sheme]

I am a truth-seeker from Indonesia,..and I'll be straight-forward honest and bold here, as I believe, as any GENUINE Truth-seekers must:

For all the 'oh-so-beautiful, hopeful, & fantasy' talks about these "spiritual, Higher-Dimensions" world/existence/multi-universe/other Beings etc etc, I (and I'm sure many already damn tired people) still don't see any HARD, SOLID PROOF of those things existing in my everyday's reality/real-life!

Critically-speaking,..I have lost so much hope after the whole "new-agey" December 21st 2012 NOTHING happened as prophesied/channeled/discussed often in this forum (instead, very sadly, I only see soo many irresponsible, endless "excuses" from all these so-called "New Age gurus, Ascended Masters, channelers, Galactic Federation Light" bla bla...more like another damn SCAMMERS & dirty new-age snake-oils men.....rotten human beings!!).

But now, I even lose like almost 99% of respect, when all I see here is just some endless (& pointless??..) talks & discussions only, about these so-called "spiritual existence" things, that unfortunately/sadly still don't have any HARD, SOLID PROOF in my (and OUR) everyday's reality/real-life !

Where is the PROOF of what all of you're talking here?..
Why so much discrepancy between all these oh-so-wonderful-and-fantastical "spiritual existence", and versus our everyday's damn "PHYSICAL" reality/real-life/real-world??..

Or, the worst possibility: could it be that ALL (or most) these talks here in this wonderful forum is just what those critical atheists/skeptics/scientists often scoffed and -rightfully so- dismissed as another mere human's wishful-thinking/creative-Imaginations/theory/stories/ideas, and mind/brain-tricks?!...

I'm sorry,... I guess I've finally had enough of only mere "sugar-coating, wishful-thinking, beauty-candy, woo-woo" baseless talks.
time to get to the HARD TRUTH,...that is, if I do still want to survive (and not go insane) in living in this everyday's seemingly mundane, ordinary "PHYSICAL" (or what's often termed as "3D" dimension here, whether it's true or not..!) reality/real-world/real-life!

This is your chance to speak about what's the REAL truth, to perhaps convince me back so I can perhaps still have FAITH in all these "spiritual, Higher-existence" often talked in this otherwise wonderful forum!..

Regards, with honesty and critical-thinking,
truth-seeker from Indonesia,
-Niki-

It sounds like you have answered 'Your' question- congratulations. Peace and love to you.

[Reinhard]

@T Smith & @Carmody: thank you for the intriguing responses!

My main question is still the same, however: how can I now really experience those 'new' things?.. (of course, without all the Brain-trick or placebo-effect or group-think psychological factors!)

What's the first step ? Astral projection/travel??...meditation?...

Anyone can help me here in this forum?

Niki, sort of complementing Realeyes valid suggestion: carefully read the thread "Secrets of the soul". Maybe you'll find a simple answer for your complex question. Btw, 'simple answer' doesn't mean it's easy and quick to accomplish...and I KNOW what I'm talking about from my own experience! No chance to delegate the responsibility for possible failure to flawed concepts or incompetent teachers...........it's all up to you! The guidelines are strikingly simple.

[judymoon]

Dear Niki, the scientific approach to the spriritual path can be a hindrance, as the spiritual path is full of paradox and is often not logical. The spiritul search is a solitary endeavor, though we may find guides and pointers outside ourselves.

In my opinion, crossing the spiritual search with the material - as in 'manifesting' or selling 'spiritual' books/lectures for a living is just a distraction from the real work. I think the distration is of more interest to many, than the actual work of re-discovering your true Self and disciplining/loosening the hold the ego has over us, so we can recognise the truth when we encounter it.

I think meditation is the first step, as it helps us quiet the mind so that it becomes a reciever rather than a broadcaster.
It introduces us to a state of mind not found in normal waking consiousness or dreamstate.

As far as astral projection, the ability to manifest, out of body experiences, an increase in personal power, etc. - a "Master' will tell you that these are all 'side-effects' of spiritual work, and not the goal itself.

Spiritual work is the most difficult work there is, as it goes against everything the ego wants. And most of us our not aware of anything apart from our ego mind. But there is another Mind in there also, and getting a glimpse of the world through this other mind is a real breakthrough for any of us.

If you want your own 'experiences' you have to work from the inside out, so to speak. No one can give you that, though they can tell you about their experience and what events lead to it.

Best of luck to you on your journey

[Rich]

Agree with what Judy said.

....have out of body experiences and things like that if you like, everyone has their unique path...
In addition I would suggest to meditate if you want the real truth.
...even just 10 minutes a day is a start.

The difference between metaphysical experiences and meditation is that
in metaphysical experiences you switch attention to other worlds and so
called 'paranormal' dimensions but in meditation you get to the root of it,
the source of ALL experiences and all worlds and dimensions.
Also, meditation is the only way that gets you out of suffering.

There is a thread on PA on meditation:
meditation thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?3779-Meditating-simply)

I be glad to help you (or anyone interested) get started with meditation if you have any questions.

[niki]

just want to say that the last few responses/posts have been quite understanding (to understand where I'm coming from, and thus responded accordingly) and also quite logical and without any baseless "feel-good" theories or dogmas only.
so I'd like to say how much I appreciate 'em, @T Smith, @Realeyes, @Reinhard, @judymoon, @EmEx!
with your understanding and logical responses, you've succeeded in opening my mind a bit about the "other" truths.

so, I'm back again, and the journey has just begun again..

thank you

(PS: if anybody else want to give some understanding, critical & logical inputs again, it's more than welcome and please don't hesitate. I would appreciate it very much~).

[KiwiElf]

Agree with all the above, Niki. An Out of Body Experience will allow you to also experience many other things; ie clairvoyance, telepathy etc and most important of all, clear "proof" to you that what you experience is "real". If you can, altho not necessary, perhaps seek out someone near you who has achieved this and can act as your tutor and guide.

[foreverfan]

That really helped me was looking at near death experiences, children that talk about past life/reincarnation, and past life regression through hypnosis. All of these subject apply real science. The below video really was hard to explain away. It is from 1983 and was actually banned. It is the best documentary about post life regression that is out there.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HayY1yyXnn0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8Ub2xx0KQ0

[Chris Gilbert]

Remote viewing/sensing is easier than Astral Projection imo. A simple way to experiment with such is, after a couple weeks or months or learning how to clear one's mind, get on Google maps, focus your awareness on a location and then zoom in using the application to see how your perception matches up with what the screen shows you.

Don't expect yourself to have 100% accuracy either, oftentimes what you may notice is that some details in your perception will be off but you will be able to get the 'overall sense' of a location (the manner in which you perceive it often being very specific to you as well)

[niki]

Remote viewing/sensing is easier than Astral Projection imo. A simple way to experiment with such is, after a couple weeks or months or learning how to clear one's mind, get on Google maps, focus your awareness on a location and then zoom in using the application to see how your perception matches up with what the screen shows you.

Don't expect yourself to have 100% accuracy either, oftentimes what you may notice is that some details in your perception will be off but you will be able to get the 'overall sense' of a location (the manner in which you perceive it often being very specific to you as well)

@Enishi : but, critically speaking, that could also simply be the result of a placebo-effect, where your mind/brain "tricks" you into *believing* what you WANT to believe!

what do you think?

[niki]

This is also my main reason for requiring "evidence/proof" , as I have just replied to @panopticon in this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40231-2012-Beyond-The-Great-Waves-Prophecy-by-Marshall-Vian-Summers&p=646959#post646959), here I'll repeat again my main reason/points, for all people in this Avalon forum to see:

as regarding to required "evidence/proof", well, it's very simple:
first of all, it has to follow the already-acknowledged and verified *scientific* methods that are critical, and verifiable, and testable repeatedly.

because otherwise, if any of you easily just said stuff like "any truth you find is that of your Own" >>> then, even if this would include our *Own* delusions/fantasy that is NOT real?... then again, isn't that the same as being Ignorant (ie: Ignorant to the real reality) ?

Subjective truth (eg: like personal experiences) is, in my opinion, never sufficient for the required "proof/evidence".
Why? because just look at all the FAILED channelings, prophecies, and many FAKE info that is all claimed usually by some individuals & their own "personal experiences" (or 'channelings', or 'revelation', etc etc etc) that we simply CANNOT know what's their *real* intentions is/are , eg: for raking money from gullible naive "spiritual" people, or for popularity, lies, deceits, fake/false info/teachings, and many other 'worldly' motivations!

So again, since we're still living in this *physical* earthly reality,
then it's only logical (and critical) for people (especially skeptics, critical type of people) to ask for the OBJECTIVE (usually means *scientifically*) type of truth, with the criterias as I've listed/explained above.

Also, don't forget to use "Occam's Razor" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) principle, which is also very *scientific* and valid, especially for explaining the so-called "extraodinary" claims made by any people/person/individual!

[Carmody]

When I saw your thread pop up... I thought there was a chance that you decided to go on this 'trip' again. It is a sort of a case of a square peg and a round hole. You keep hitting it, even though you know it won't fit. You seem to refuse to adjust any component of the mixture.

You seem to keep hammering away at it, without ever getting the point. The problem is yours, figure it out on your own. No one can help you here, only you can help you here. That is the way it works. Your projections need not be suffered by the rest of us, beyond a certain point, where repetition has been noted. The same goes for me and any issues/projections I may have, and so on, for the rest of us.

It is like you are ripping our guts out while screaming at us to stay alive..all while coming at us...as a projection from your own mind's desires and confusions.

Here is the part where two of us responded to your statement in that thread:




"extraordinary claims requires extraordinary proofs."

Please remember this always, people.

Be critical,
in these days & ironically "modern" age that people seems to be forgetting critical-thinking, logic & common-sense all in the favor of "fake positivism" trend that seems to be created by those "guru/teachers/masters" to rake out more money from depressed gullible & naive people, due to today's increasingly financial/economic hardships & stress in everyday's harsh reality!

Being critical is *not* the same as being negative.
NEVER forget that.

Another qualification is: Extraordinary.... to whom?

I'm neither here nor there on this thread's topic and specifics..but.... discernment is relative to where one is self referenced - in a given equation.

Absolutely. It's always your claims are extraordinary and your proofs are not extraordinary enough.

Another old saw is Occam's razor, the principle of parsimonious assumptions. If you introduce just one assumption, an infinite creative principle, you can explain a great, but that particular assumption somehow does not count - whether too ordinary or too extraordinary, I'm not quite sure.

[Wind]

Niki, people here are really trying to help you, but you don't listen. You actually don't need the "evidence", it is just that your mind demands them for some reason. I think that you want a change to happen since you are fed up? Have you tried meditation? You're trying way too hard now, just let go. Meditation certainly can't hurt you, it only can help. It will not bring you evidence, but it will give you answers and a peaceful mind. If only you allow it to happen, it is up to you and no one else.

[araucaria]

Also, don't forget to use "Occam's Razor" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) principle, which is also very *scientific* and valid, especially for explaining the so-called "extraodinary" claims made by any people/person/individual!

My mention of Occam's razor (quoted by Carmody) was made on another thread at (18.38 my time) 40 minutes before this post (19.19 my time). This is hard data.

As someone who is (consciously at least) neither an astral traveller nor a remote viewer, I should appreciate some "*scientific* and valid" explanation of this apparent time warp.

I would like to know how this works, but in the meantime, this is how I stumble upon hard data of my own that needs explaining. This is not an extraordinary claim, it is merely a readily observable phenomenon. It happens all the time on this forum.

[Aurvandil]

Hi, and thanks for a interesting thread! I hope and believe, Niki, that you have found some things here to help you on the way, as I can see from your latest response. You are not alone feeling like this.

Amidst all the advice from members here far more skilled than me, I only have some small things to recommend:

- Try to forget your searching and see what happens. Do not give up. "Go with the flow" might sound very hippie but is true. "When the pupil is ready, the master will appear", that is when it is time for you to take the next step, you will be allowed to and get help doing it, like several others already have mentioned. This doesn´t mean that you will have to believe everything you are shown.

- Practice mindfulness and/or meditation (anapanasati mentioned above is very effective). Even if it perhaps will not give you scientific proof it will give you a deeper sensibility to the world around you making it possible for you to see/understand the connections between the spiritual and physical world. Be aware of the world around you. However it can take time to feel the result. The advice given above about OBE`s is excellent.

- Read books, trying to see how others have coped with the same question. The more recent authors are perhaps Lynne McTaggart (The Field, The Intention experiment, don´t know her status here but she has a scientific approach) and Masaru Emoto (http://www.masaru-emoto.net/english/hado.html) (experiments with water projected to feelings). Further back you also have the philosophical theory of phenomenology which might be interesting since it talks about how we perceive the world around us, authors here are for example Husserl and Hegel.

- Think about joining a esoteric society, just to be able to talk about this with others (face to face and not on a forum), and be able to get hold of esoteric knowledge. This has helped me a lot on a personal plane.

I wish you luck in finding what you are looking for! :hug:

[sleepy]

xxxxx xxxxx

[niki]

Also, don't forget to use "Occam's Razor" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) principle, which is also very *scientific* and valid, especially for explaining the so-called "extraodinary" claims made by any people/person/individual!

My mention of Occam's razor (quoted by Carmody) was made on another thread at (18.38 my time) 40 minutes before this post (19.19 my time). This is hard data.

As someone who is (consciously at least) neither an astral traveller nor a remote viewer, I should appreciate some "*scientific* and valid" explanation of this apparent time warp.

I would like to know how this works, but in the meantime, this is how I stumble upon hard data of my own that needs explaining. This is not an extraordinary claim, it is merely a readily observable phenomenon. It happens all the time on this forum.

@araucaria : that "18:38 , 19:19 timing" could simply be just a coincidence. nothing more.

coincidences always happen in our life.
but sadly, people often only want to remember the "good" coincidences, and never count the "bad" coincidences in their life as well.

and plus, what's so special about that timing anyway?
I could now look at my clock, it's 3:40 AM now here in my country, and the simply making-up some "oh wow this is such a gooodd coincidence!!" theories and then fill it up with my *own* theory (or fantasy) from my own brain....as you can see, ANYBODY can come-up with such 'theory'!
there's no one solid, testable Objectivity.
one can be delusional, and you're saying we should follow/listen to what he/she is saying??... no, I don't think so.

Again, this is why critical-thinking is very much needed here.
to avoid all the "creatively made-up" nonsense that anybody could easily create/making things up to fit their own beliefs (whatever that is)!

[araucaria]

Also, don't forget to use "Occam's Razor" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) principle, which is also very *scientific* and valid, especially for explaining the so-called "extraodinary" claims made by any people/person/individual!

My mention of Occam's razor (quoted by Carmody) was made on another thread at (18.38 my time) 40 minutes before this post (19.19 my time). This is hard data.

As someone who is (consciously at least) neither an astral traveller nor a remote viewer, I should appreciate some "*scientific* and valid" explanation of this apparent time warp.

I would like to know how this works, but in the meantime, this is how I stumble upon hard data of my own that needs explaining. This is not an extraordinary claim, it is merely a readily observable phenomenon. It happens all the time on this forum.

@araucaria : that "18:38 , 19:19 timing" could simply be just a coincidence. nothing more.

coincidences always happen in our life.
but sadly, people often only want to remember the "good" coincidences, and never count the "bad" coincidences in their life as well.

and plus, what's so special about that timing anyway?
I could now look at my clock, it's 3:40 AM now here in my country, and the simply making-up some "oh wow this is such a gooodd coincidence!!" theories and then fill it up with my *own* theory (or fantasy) from my own brain....as you can see, ANYBODY can come-up with such 'theory'!
there's no one solid, testable Objectivity.
one can be delusional, and you're saying we should follow/listen to what he/she is saying??... no, I don't think so.

Again, this is why critical-thinking is very much needed here.
to avoid all the "creatively made-up" nonsense that anybody could easily create/making things up to fit their own beliefs (whatever that is)!

I am talking about a phenomenon beyond coincidence. Your good and bad categorization has nothing to do with it.

"Critical-thinking" is not the monopoly of the person who makes it their mantra. Over and out.

[christian]

since we're still living in this *physical* earthly reality, then it's only logical (and critical) for people (especially skeptics, critical type of people) to ask for the OBJECTIVE (usually means *scientifically*) type of truth

Only the source of all-that-is can really be objective, everything else is naturally subjective. Getting any arbitrary number of people together and claiming objectivity is presumptuous, but this is what the mainstream does, and it has to be noted that the numbers as portrayed by the mainstream are distorted. Just make a survey asking how many people believe that UFOs visit Earth, then you see what I mean.

I bet how you experience reality doesn't match with how I experience it. I subjectively know that past lives exist and that everything is energy. I've had subjective confirmations for that. All delusional? Who are we to come up with a definite judgement? History has shown that science always discovers things that have been unknown before. How could you thus expect contemporary science to prove and describe all existing phenomena?

Your calls for discernment and a detached analysis are surely reasonable, but when you want to rigidly impose a certain instrument as the standard with which everything has to be analyzed and described, despite the fact that the instrument you suggest for that is limited in its abilities, then you're fighting a losing battle.

On this forum it's the general consensus that fringe topics are not something to be avoided, even though they're not proven or acknowledged by the mainstream. How about just doing some possibility thinking, entertaining and analyzing ideas detachedly? If you're not comfortable with that, then maybe Avalon is simply not the right forum for you.

[Beren]

Some simply cannot see a forest from a tree... Until they see it.

[hangel]

Niki
Just because you experience this - how you call it - a mental breakdown, this is a sign that you are on right track. It's almost like an egg.. Say, eggs shape is so smooth n perfect. It's pity when you see shell cracked. But if its cracked because new baby chick is being born that is even more exciting than just egg in first place. But if you never seen a bird in your life then you don't understand what is happening and cracked shell upsets you.

Listen to Ulli, Tesla.., and others who speak like them. These are real gems in this forum. I love them dearly.

New Age movement is like a fashion.... "this spring/summer season we have bright colour tops and skirts printed with new agey patters, all celebs wearing them accorss the world, will you join them?"
Sound like advertising, doesn't it? And it is. It's there to sell something to people who don't have cash and don't want to spend anymore. New age give them that extra edge, hope, teaser in form of access to secret knowledge, long forgotten skills, explanation of all the question you can ask.

This is why I'm extra sensitive when new age stuff comes in horizon. All that it offeres is making you special, getting you know yourself, enhance your abilities, etcetera. All ticking for ego, a sort of a gym to excercise ego so it is bigger and well established. Ego is the dark side of the force. Ego is dressed in white clothes and plays your friend, saying: I will help you, I know what you need. No one knows that apart from you.

Your higher-self, your soul - as you may call it - knows solution to your problem. But you don't have to go out to get a specialist help to talk to your higher-self. You can do it now, wherever you are. If you believe in angels, guardians etc that can help you now. Talk to them. No need to join new age movement to be closer to God.

Positive beings and their help is free of charge, come in quickly, they are vary much 'strait to business' with their help. They won't tell you to attend two weeks course ($5000+food and accommodation).

In terms of spiritual growth, it's normal to look for reasonable answers to everything. We grew in this world, this is the way we have been brought up. But from time to time you will find yourself doing something you wouldn't normally choose to do in your normal reasonable life. You may develop affection to pet animals that you never thought of, you may start like to do more arty things, you may start enjoying things that you never considered interesting in your life. This unusual stuff will be the sign for you that you are on the right track.

Keep going.

[zebowho]

One day Niki you will have an experience, a profound experience that can neither be proven or truly experienced by anyone else the way you did. How will your "method" hold up then? Will you just "chalk it up" to your own imaginings or will you be willing to see the profound, in the simplicity of it?

-z

[niki]

One day Niki you will have an experience, a profound experience that can neither be proven or truly experienced by anyone else the way you did. How will your "method" hold up then? Will you just "chalk it up" to your own imaginings or will you be willing to see the profound, in the simplicity of it?

-z

@zebowho : and that's actually the problem.

1. How can I (or anyone) know 100% for sure that my (or anyone's) "profound experience" is not just a mere brain-trick, or delusional, or a mere wishful-thinking/hopeful fantasy only (eg: therefore, "I see what I *want* to see,..even though it's just delusional, NOT real in this reality!") ?..

2. How can you (or anyone) know 100% for sure that what you heard/read from other person/people's "spiritual" or even OBE, NDE experiences, all from those allegedly "gurus, masters, or even Experts!" , are really REAL, and not either from my 1st point category, nor the "dirty, worldly" snakes-oil, liars, tricksters, scammers, or basically FAKE gurus/testimonials who just want to -very simply- do it for "(3D) worldly/humanly!" motivation purposes ie: for money, popularity, seeking/gaining-attention, and/or even just for the FUN of it (eg: "having fun" tricking gullible & ignorant people!) ??...

This is *WHY* I always be "the voice of that critical/skeptic person", it's actually also for the GOOD of all of you people in this forum!

There needs to be more critical & skeptical (or "scientific") people to balance all other views in this forum.
And of course, we also need to learn to be critical & skeptical, if we don't want to fall into all kind of lies which seems sooo prevalent everywhere in this so-called "post-modern" era!

[donk]

There needs to be more critical & skeptical (or "scientific") people to balance all other views in this forum.


"Balanced"? Like Fox News balanced, maybe?

If you don't find enough critical thinking and skeptical thinking here, perhaps maybe your discernment skills aren't as great as you think they are...

Or maybe--is it possible? That you might be yourself capable of delusional thinking and "mind-tricks"?

....don't mind me, just musings from my "crazy" unscientific reality.

[ulli]

I'm being skeptical now, niki. Please provide proof that you are human.
Something tells me you could be a robot, or an AI.

[Hazel]

Just a few cents worth to add here Niki..

Empirical truth(s) / subjective truth(s) are all ultimately bound in emergent knowing.. a realm of shifting sands that is the 'reality' of our existence.
Remaining open and curious to the unknown is the only rudder I know that grounds the uncertainty we all face.

You might consider being a little more altruistic and respectful in your responses to all others here, who are courageous enough to live curious and question everything in their own way.
Avalon forums support seekers of self sovereignty in a democratic way.. something to be cherished in a world that infuses a pulse of fear into those that step outside the box.

Theres an anxious urgency to your pleas for "more critical and skeptical people" that smacks to me of fear. If you weren't blinkered in this way.. you would see the irony in your responses, as actually when in Avalon you are surrounded by those free and safe enough in themselves to question more deeply than most.

Go more gently with yourself and others.. and you may find that the skin will eventually fall from your eyes.

[niki]

I'm being skeptical now, niki. Please provide proof that you are human.
Something tells me you could be a robot, or an AI.

@ulli : Well,..again, critically/logically and honestly/boldly speaking:

1) first, do I sound like a robot or an AI to you? in creating/composing all these well-thought posts and sentences?..
2) has there ever any robot or AI that posted or write, or even discussing healthily here in this forum??..
3) by your reasoning, then I could actually ask the same thing to you: "I AM skeptical, please provide me proof that you are a human, ulli."

With all due respect, I don't think you truly understand my main point.
I am not here to offend or worse intentionally want to be a troll posting endless and meaningless one-liner sentences (see in my posts real *honestly* and point out -if there is- where I was ever being like that..).

So please, let's cool down and don't let the emotions start to get the better of us in this important discussion.

Even just by glancing from your response alone I already know that you are *not* being cool-headed & calm enough,
your post lack critical-thinking in itself, and only full of angry emotions (because you simply *misunderstand*me and my main point, and therefore perhaps quickly judging me as this or that, according to your own mind/perception).

Calm down.
Use critical-thinking.
But don't forget to be KIND & understanding also,...especially in such "spiritual" forum.
Don't just simply listen to your Ego & 'be reactive' only, instead, THINK carefully (and with Bigger-understanding) before you write/post.

(PS: by you're responding like this, it's actually you who are sounding like a "troll" only posting such non-understanding one-liner post, that very lacking or even doesn't have any meaning at all. I'm sorry, but in all honesty, I can't respect such responses/answers.)

[araucaria]

I'm being skeptical now, niki. Please provide proof that you are human.
Something tells me you could be a robot, or an AI.

@ulli : Well,..again, critically/logically and honestly/boldly speaking:

1) first, do I sound like a robot or an AI to you? in creating/composing all these well-thought posts and sentences?..
2) has there ever any robot or AI that posted or write, or even discussing healthily here in this forum??..
3) by your reasoning, then I could actually ask the same thing to you: "I AM skeptical, please provide me proof that you are a human, ulli."

With all due respect, I don't think you truly understand my main point.
I am not here to offend or worse intentionally want to be a troll posting endless and meaningless one-liner sentences (see in my posts real *honestly* and point out -if there is- where I was ever being like that..).

So please, let's cool down and don't let the emotions start to get the better of us in this important discussion.

Even just by glancing from your response alone I already know that you are *not* being cool-headed & calm enough,
your post lack critical-thinking in itself, and only full of angry emotions (because you simply *misunderstand*me and my main point, and therefore perhaps quickly judging me as this or that, according to your own mind/perception).

Calm down.
Use critical-thinking.
But don't forget to be KIND & understanding also,...especially in such "spiritual" forum.
Don't just simply listen to your Ego & 'be reactive' only, instead, THINK carefully (and with Bigger-understanding) before you write/post.

(PS: by you're responding like this, it's actually you who are sounding like a "troll" only posting such non-understanding one-liner post, that very lacking or even doesn't have any meaning at all. I'm sorry, but in all honesty, I can't respect such responses/answers.)

Thank you niki. I think that is all we needed to know :)

[Beren]

Niki you will not get a proof ever until you change your perception.
Precisely these questions that you ask continually are a telling example of 20th century mindset which extends in 21st.

For you all replies were not enough or not good enough for your standards.
You have to broaden your views else you will stay narrow focused.

If you won't do this, I can see that no one will be bothered to answer to any of your further question despite how spot on they might me.
For example can you 100% prove to me that you exist in Indonesia? That you are a woman, that you are not a middle aged man in Kansas poking fun of everybody here???

How can I trust that you write those words that you write, maybe you are an agent for MI6 ???

Prove me wrong.

This is how your questions sounds continuously to others here.
Yes we're trying to help but the time comes when you have to decide what you will going to do with all replies you received.
Nevertheless your opinion and disbelief will not change a thing in other experiences which people share here.

I am not trying here to put you down or offend. I am trying to help you.

[donk]

So please, let's cool down and don't let the emotions start to get the better of us in this important discussion.


In your quest for critical scientific reality, start with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Hello Niki,

I offer this:

"Believe nothing, O monks, merely because you have been told it or because it is traditional, or because you yourselves have imagined it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings- that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide."

-The Buddha

[ulli]

Sorry niki, but you are quite wrong about my emotional state.
Of course I can't prove to you that I'm an unemotional person,
who experiments with different options of approaching a particular issue.
But when I first came to this forum, when these issues of AI were
being discussed someone posted a link to a website where one could interact via chat
box with an AI. One could ask this entity any question and it provided intelligent answers in split seconds. I have tried to find that link, but can't seem to find it now.
Very interesting. The only thing I could not discuss with that AI was astrology.

Anyway, it may not have occurred to you that I asked you this question purely out of curiosity to see what answer
you would give me, and that such answer would then reveal to me where you are coming from.

Your answer showed me that your need to make assumptions still outweighs your need to find truth.

[niki]

Niki you will not get a proof ever until you change your perception.
Precisely these questions that you ask continually are a telling example of 20th century mindset which extends in 21st.

For you all replies were not enough or not good enough for your standards.
You have to broaden your views else you will stay narrow focused.

If you won't do this, I can see that no one will be bothered to answer to any of your further question despite how spot on they might me.
For example can you 100% prove to me that you exist in Indonesia? That you are a woman, that you are not a middle aged man in Kansas poking fun of everybody here???

How can I trust that you write those words that you write, maybe you are an agent for MI6 ???

Prove me wrong.

This is how your questions sounds continuously to others here.
Yes we're trying to help but the time comes when you have to decide what you will going to do with all replies you received.
Nevertheless your opinion and disbelief will not change a thing in other experiences which people share here.

I am not trying here to put you down or offend. I am trying to help you.

@Beren: thank you.

I am simply just being honest with my skeptical point of view, because of too many "spiritual B.S" that is the result of all these 'woo-woo positive-thinking LawofAttraction' trends permeating everywhere today (which I'm sure you would agree too, if looked more deeply).

There are also other 'critical' and 'skeptic' type of people in this forum, which I truly respect & admire for their boldness and honesty as well, such as:
@RMorgan, and even @Bill Ryan himself!

Again I apologize very much if some (or perhaps even many) of you here have somehow misunderstood my *real, true* intention in posting all of this... perhaps it's also because due to English as my 2nd-language, and thus, not able to write/express clearly without any misunderstanding from some (or many) of you..

I am simply just being honest, and be another 'critical' voice here in this "truth-seeking/truthers" forum.
that's all.

[niki]

Sorry niki, but you are quite wrong about my emotional state.
Of course I can't prove to you that I'm an unemotional person,
who experiments with different options of approaching a particular issue.
But when I first came to this forum, when these issues of AI were
being discussed someone posted a link to a website where one could interact via chat
box with an AI. One could ask this entity any question and it provided intelligent answers in split seconds. I have tried to find that link, but can't seem to find it now.
Very interesting. The only thing I could not discuss with that AI was astrology.

Anyway, it may not have occurred to you that I asked you this question purely out of curiosity to see what answer
you would give me, and that such answer would then reveal to me where you are coming from.

Your answer showed me that your need to make assumptions still outweighs your need to find truth.

Fair enough,..I will admit it's my mistake, in this part.
I sincerely apologize.

[ulli]

Sorry niki, but you are quite wrong about my emotional state.
Of course I can't prove to you that I'm an unemotional person,
who experiments with different options of approaching a particular issue.
But when I first came to this forum, when these issues of AI were
being discussed someone posted a link to a website where one could interact via chat
box with an AI. One could ask this entity any question and it provided intelligent answers in split seconds. I have tried to find that link, but can't seem to find it now.
Very interesting. The only thing I could not discuss with that AI was astrology.

Anyway, it may not have occurred to you that I asked you this question purely out of curiosity to see what answer
you would give me, and that such answer would then reveal to me where you are coming from.

Your answer showed me that your need to make assumptions still outweighs your need to find truth.

Fair enough,..I will admit it's my mistake, in this part.
I sincerely apologize.


No problem, niki, apology accepted.
But if I may be so bold and suggest that you also question the fact that your self image as a "skeptic"
might have become rather rigid, and this is not healthy for you- leaving you little room for further growth.

Because skepticism that is not balanced by an occasional leap of faith can easily become a robotic habit and entrap the human spirit.

[Hazel]

Nice stir of the pot Niki.... "all grist for the mill" as they say in the classics

You have made several repetitions of your point by now, captured many of us in your web and been indulged in an avalanche of thoughtful responses.

"Fair suck of the sav'"(saveloy) as we say colloquially in Aus'. Maybe its time to put it to bed and enter discussion in other threads, will be good to have you on board exploring fresh topics in expressions of your perspective.

with all good will
H

[Strat]

Why exactly are you having a mental breakdown? From your post, it seems you and I are in a similar boat. My advice would work towards contentment rather than focusing on finding truth. Anyway...

The biggest "mind F" in my mind is the whole 9/11 thing. There's more holes in that (official) story than in swiss cheese but no, I can't physically prove it's bs. This only messes with my head if I let it. Through basic meditation nothing - and I mean nothing - can bother me.

I kind of have to meditate. I mean I'll turn into a real (sometimes depressed) asshole if I don't. Only 2 of my friends can debate 9/11. The other ones just aren't interested or become upset if it's brought up. If my mind isn't clear, I'm just another dumb-dumb in an argument.

One of my friends is ex special forces. He's aware of a lot of governmental bs and he has personally been to Area 51. Still, he wont even consider the fact that the 9/11 Commission Report is absurd.

I have another friend who is a combat vet from Afghanistan (hit by an IED and everything). He's similar, but he'll listen to you for a bit before writing you off.

The other friends are just zombies: go to work, go home, drink beer, sleep, repeat. They wouldn't read a book if their lives depended on it.


-------------

I avoid the topic of 'reality' because it's so subjective. I think that term should be changed to mean "the natural tendency of humans to understand their surroundings."

I imagine this has been posted already.

What's real to you may not be real to me. I find it best not to think about it cause it's a waste of time and more detrimental than you may think (IMO).

There's a guy that shows up at my hole-in-the-wall pub. He says he came from the Sun and that Obama is in fact a reincarnated Reagan. Also, he is convinced my buddy is prince Harry and he bows to him because, "You always bow to a prince."

To that guy, those things are very real and good luck convincing him otherwise.

I guess my point of this is that it's best to accept the fact that you will never know all the truth. "If I know anything it is that I know nothing."

I never claim to know anything for sure. I just gather information and assign percentages. So do I know for a fact 9/11 was bs. NO I DON'T. According to all gathered information, however, I believe it is.

And to lighten this all up, this reminds me of a Joe Rogan tweet from a long time ago, "If I was an alien I'd make a space craft that looks fake as F and I would only abduct people who were known liars."

[donk]

If my mind isn't clear, I'm just another dumb-dumb in an argument.

Well said


What's real to you may not be real to me. I find it best not to think about it cause it's a waste of time and more detrimental than you may think (IMO).


In my opinion, and I believe anyone who took the time to post--especially niki, maybe even you?, it's important to think about. If not, why are we five pages deep on this thread? The blue I find to be true and profound, the red: perhaps mistated, or misunderstood (by me)..at least how I took it completely out of context :p

Thanks for your thoughts...

niki--I can totally relate to how you feel, as I was there not so long ago...and this is the only thing I have learned that is important and TRUTH:


"If I know anything it is that I know nothing."



If you can believe that, than you will move forward (or at least in a different direction) at an incredible, unbelievable pace. I have nothing to back it up, but my own experience...which honestly is the only thing I know to be REAL.

"I believe in everything, nothing is sacred...
I believe in nothing, everything is sacred" -Tom Robbins

[zebowho]

One day Niki you will have an experience, a profound experience that can neither be proven or truly experienced by anyone else the way you did. How will your "method" hold up then? Will you just "chalk it up" to your own imaginings or will you be willing to see the profound, in the simplicity of it?

-z

@zebowho : and that's actually the problem.

1. How can I (or anyone) know 100% for sure that my (or anyone's) "profound experience" is not just a mere brain-trick, or delusional, or a mere wishful-thinking/hopeful fantasy only (eg: therefore, "I see what I *want* to see,..even though it's just delusional, NOT real in this reality!") ?..

That profound experience would be life changing, or at the very least move one at their core, no? Your experiences are yours, why would you need to prove them to me. On the flip side (proof to self), some people have a profound experience and spend the rest of their lives trying to "prove" it, re-live it or find others that had the same experience and most if not all would eventually realize at least one thing, their experience was meant for them.

The experience becomes the proof!




2. How can you (or anyone) know 100% for sure that what you heard/read from other person/people's "spiritual" or even OBE, NDE experiences, all from those allegedly "gurus, masters, or even Experts!" , are really REAL, and not either from my 1st point category, nor the "dirty, worldly" snakes-oil, liars, tricksters, scammers, or basically FAKE gurus/testimonials who just want to -very simply- do it for "(3D) worldly/humanly!" motivation purposes ie: for money, popularity, seeking/gaining-attention, and/or even just for the FUN of it (eg: "having fun" tricking gullible & ignorant people!) ??...

This is *WHY* I always be "the voice of that critical/skeptic person", it's actually also for the GOOD of all of you people in this forum!

There needs to be more critical & skeptical (or "scientific") people to balance all other views in this forum.
And of course, we also need to learn to be critical & skeptical, if we don't want to fall into all kind of lies which seems sooo prevalent everywhere in this so-called "post-modern" era!

Well I could ask you the same questions. Do you have the keys to reality and know all there is, I certainly don't. Is the reality you live different than mine (or than everyone else)? Does your skepticism make your reality the truth? See, this too looks like the same trap your trying to expose. Where's the balance to say your truths are yours and maybe not for everyone (or anyone) else.

I believe Science and religion have their place and both can be small boxes at most times. History on either will show that. In fact some things that had proof were shown, in time, to be inaccurate.

Skepticism can be good but also a smaller box in that too much skepticism disallows faith.

As for all the "snake oils, tricksters ...etc you mentioned in your 2nd category. I agree, take them for what they are and when we know some to be false, we should let others know. But we can't force them to accept. Besides, isn't being "gullible" an experience that's meant to be had...I've had mine. So if everyone is at their own point, in their own lives and for their own path, who are we to say our faith or skepticism is to keep "them" in balance. When was that made your responsibility or mine? I know I have a hard enough time with my own.


I'd suggest temper that skepticism with faith, faith in your spirituality or at the very least yourself and your own intuition, as well as in others. Just like experience, everyone has to find their own balance and as Beren said, there is a forest out there and I believe its one just for you Niki, I know, I'm still discovering mine.

-z

[niki]

Does your skepticism make your reality the truth? See, this too looks like the same trap your trying to expose. Where's the balance to say your truths are yours and maybe not for everyone (or anyone) else.

Skepticism can be good but also a smaller box in that too much skepticism disallows faith.

As for all the "snake oils, tricksters ...etc you mentioned in your 2nd category. I agree, take them for what they are and when we know some to be false, we should let others know. But we can't force them to accept. Besides, isn't being "gullible" an experience that's meant to be had...I've had mine. So if everyone is at their own point, in their own lives and for their own path, who are we to say our faith or skepticism is to keep "them" in balance. When was that made your responsibility or mine? I know I have a hard enough time with my own.


I'd suggest temper that skepticism with faith, faith in your spirituality or at the very least yourself and your own intuition, as well as in others. Just like experience, everyone has to find their own balance and as Beren said, there is a forest out there and I believe its one just for you Niki, I know, I'm still discovering mine.

-z

@zebowho: Skepticism is precisely needed in today's "anything-goes" lack of critical thinking era, because without it, we -humans- would keep believing anything that has no real basis & no logic/common-sense. even if that is the same as believing in a heaven full of virgins (like some religion do, or "fantasize"), or believing that we can become like a bird and fly to the sky now if we want it,.. where you KNOW that all these things are NOT true/real, no matter how much you try to use that "mind-manifest, just-simply-believe" woo-woo new-age/spiritualism pretty-words/theories.

Someone popular once said that in order for humanity & our civilization to really progress, we should learn to "Question everything", instead of just "believe in everything". the latter would easily turn us into a naive, gullible, ignorant, foolish, and childish people who would believe anything that is even remotely not real! and would turn humanity spiraling downward in their denying/escaping the everyday's real world's reality.

[Violet]

I think, Niki, that you're making a very good point. I myself have already put my trust in the Maker but that doesn't keep me from being very disappointed in things of everyday life...And this is probably what makes my life blurry at this point.

The unclarity and uncertainty of things is the most painstaking, but I can also feel very lonely when I observe that in my close surroundings it seems so little people are willing to unconditionally love.

Everybody's running to fight for some personal cause and everyone else can go to hell, but if all is to go the hell why were we put here together? I saw that other title saying "We are family" and it really touched me. But in my world everybody thinks people with my ideas are naive hippies that are best given as least as possible responsibility and trust...Nobody seems to take love seriously...Yet everybody wants it...

I hope that we can all find some rest in our hearts soon, Nikki.

[Hazel]

Sheeesh Nicki

can't believe you are still enmeshed in this thread 'guilding the Lilly'
seems my point and those spelled out very eloquently by other critical thinkers here regards the irony of your criticism about people on this forums capacity for Questioning is lost on you...

Amen

[christian]

in order for humanity & our civilization to really progress, we should learn to "Question everything"

Then we should consequently also question that. ;)

To me it seems you just keep repeating how things should be examined thoroughly. Fair enough, well go ahead then.

"Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one." — Marcus Aurelius

[zebowho]

Here's the jist of a lengthy post I had lost to a browser crash a few hours ago.

I agree a critical mind is important, skepticism on the other hand, well that's a mine field and I've seen friends/family with too much and they simply don't have the experiences they want to see. Their skepticism doesn't allow them. <-- There's something pretty heavy in that last sentence.

I was raised to question everything and I've realized that at some point I have to believe. Those two go hand in hand, if we have one without the other then we're not even seeing half the picture (less in most cases).

I'll tell you what, I'll be the example that I was trying to illustrate in earlier posts. - To allow others to have their view, their path, their experience. This too means you. Thanks for the conversation Niki, I've said what I needed to say except that I hope you don't hold on to that skepticism so much that you in turn miss that profound experience.

There is so much out there that we can't even comprehend as a human species and frankly, my opinion is we simply have to earn the right to see most of it let alone even begin to understand. Now there's where real adventure is!

-z

[niki]

Sheeesh Nicki

can't believe you are still enmeshed in this thread 'guilding the Lilly'
seems my point and those spelled out very eloquently by other critical thinkers here regards the irony of your criticism about people on this forums capacity for Questioning is lost on you...


@recap1: can you please be more specific and detailed what do you mean exactly? thank you.



in order for humanity & our civilization to really progress, we should learn to "Question everything"

Then we should consequently also question that. ;)

To me it seems you just keep repeating how things should be examined thoroughly. Fair enough, well go ahead then.

"Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one." — Marcus Aurelius

@christian: although I respect your response in the previous page, yet this time I can't find what do you exactly (or specifically) want to point out to me? I just sincerely hope that this is not just a mere emotional-response (or a mere "ad-hominem" attack), but if I indeed have some mistakes especially in all these recent posts/pages of mine, then please do with kindly point out to me where mistakes or where I was wrong.

As an Open-minded skeptic & critical person, I would be more than happy & glad to fix my errors or thinking, if what you point out does make sense.
thank you.

We are all constantly Learning, and also seeking for the *real* Truth here.. and that's also including me.

[christian]

What don't you understand? I'll try to put it in other words:

When everything must be questioned, then this statement in itself must also be questioned.

To me it seems you're repeating one statement over and over. You say "this is how it should be done" again and again. I think it would be more approriate to just act accordingly. Pick an issue and present a thorough examination, like you want to see it done. Demonstrate what you're preaching.

[soleil]

makes sense what you are asking for christian, because i'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this thread. i keep waiting for the day that niki will be satisfied with anything really...i posted some questions in niki's other thread, which werent answered.

niki, if i may ask you again.



all the 'beautiful' and 'spiritual' words/jargons aside, in reality, no matter how "feeling good" and Imaginations we're trying to do,..it still won't be able to completely change the *physical* reality,..no?

for the simplest example: let's say if right NOW, I imagine & think of a thousands rays of colors now shining and permeating my room right now,..yet,..NOTHING will happen, and my room still as mundane & usual as like before,....no matter how much I've tried to imagine or THINK about it..

or also same with when I imagine & think, and also really want to *manifest* into becoming a bird, and fly to the blue sky above... NOTHING happened.. and I'm still stuck here in my room (reality!).

so,..I'm just sincerely wondering, where is the truth in all of this?
is it really real, or it's just another beautiful theories only?

any critical thoughts, or proof?
thank you.

Hi Niki,

You are over simplifying this. There is nothing wrong with that, in general, but since you ask for "proof" and "critical thought" you need to go more in depth that this!

A lot of successful people use focused intent, day dreaming, visualization, setting goals etc, and they don't care how it works nor do they need any proof. They know it works and that's enough for them.

But if you want to know the so called "mechanics of manifestation" then you need to brace yourself for a lot of learning.

There are a few more basic questions that you need to try and find some answers to:

- what is *physical* reality that you keep referring to?
- what is light (and what is color)
- what is definite proof? how do you know something is definite or not?
- what is human perception? (This is a big one. Have a look at NLP, and you will learn that your perception is NOT the reality of things, not by far!)
- you room is never mundane and never usual, that is your *perception* of it. In fact, a different observer may say is full of "colored light" (again this ties into human perception and representational systems)
- look into the concepts of subconscious mind and how that filters what "you think to be reality". This filter is so strong that you may not "perceive" things literaly in your face, you may have hallucinations all together
- try to understand objective vs subjective reality
- understand that your 5 senses perceive a very very limited of what we now know is out there. Not only that, but your "unconscious" filters distort the signals

All of the above "pointers" should give you enough critical thought for an year or so if you want to take the dive. But you have to do your home work! As so many have already told you, nobody can do it for you! No matter how beautiful and perfect their answers are, they are NOT your answer and you will not accept them.

Now let's see if anything that was said on this thread will be allowed by your filters into your mind, or you will just consider it more non-sense that requires "more proof" :)

niki, i know i may have come across as harsh in my first post to you. i have to say i may have been in a similar spot when i first started investigating "all this". i suppose i want to ask if you have reflected on the questions that iliepanda has posted?
also my next question is, do you in fact meditate? or try to meditate?
have you reflected/meditated to your higher self? if you havent tried this, i would recommend the 'how to experience OBE and higherself" by TraineeHuman, in the spirituality folder.

basically (and critically speaking) i feel(and can tell by your posts/fact) as though you are 'THINKING' too much, and not allowing your creative self to interpret these questions you are posing. honestly, stop asking us what is real, and investigate for yourself.
the only thing you have left to lose is your beliefs up until now. can you handle it?

[Hazel]

Nikki.. you are fortunate that people such as terodactyl are so giving and willing to spend a lot of time recapitulating for you. But as for those such as myself .. the response to your stuckness is 'a no brainer'.. here's a 2 handed shake to your shoulders from me..

You seem compelled to squeeze the last drop.. asking me to "explain exactly".. a wry attempt to convey that your comprehension is lacking..
maybe mildly amusing, but extremely tiresome...


sufficely and simply a quote from Ghandi:

"Be the change you seek"

won't indulge your petulant stance of waxing and waning on the topic any further/ your theme is by this time, a well and truly suffocated entity. If you may notice, no one is engaged conversationally and there has been much appeasement of your monosyllabic appeal for you to be right and not misunderstood.

so desist attempting a repeat hook-in
accept it.. I'm well off it...

and i have by the way, enjoyed some of your other posts in other threads where your needle hasn't been stuck / therein you demonstrate the capacities Christian is helpfully pointing you toward.

Let it go... none of us are as fundamentally misunderstood, nor as objective as you appear to assume yourself to be. And yes crumbled beliefs can be hard to take... but comes the time to stop crying for the soother to be handed back to your mouth.
To paraphrase the wise taradactyl... self-responsibility is the act of freedom that brings us to an evolution of knowing: self-understanding is the key to everything, then we can begin 'to get' the rest out there, authentically.

And so it is... ;)