Graham Hancock's latest experiences with ayahuasca

[Corncrake]

I have been to several Graham Hancock lectures and have a lot of respect for him. Read here about his latest experiences with Ayahuasca in Brazil.

'These five letters, originally written as status updates for my facebook community (here and here) describe a series of sessions with Ayahuasca, the “Vine of Souls” that I participated in in Brazil in January and February 2013. They are written in real time and reflect the changing dynamics of these unusual experiences over a period of two weeks. Something very strange happened in sessions four and five, something sinister that I could not have anticipated from my previous work with Ayahuasca and looking back through the whole sequence of letters now I am struck by how it took me, and others, by surprise and how we at first sought to intellectualize it and even explain it away.'

Read more at http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/HancockG4-Letters-from-the-Far-Side.php

[Cidersomerset]

I don't know why the link won't connect ? is this the link below ?

Its working this morning i can see the letters cheers,


Graham Hancock, January 2013

The experiences described in this article were also the subject of a talk I gave at a
recent TEDx conference in London. Please see the video below:


9WaeMyC86Dw


Published on 13 Feb 2013


Graham Hancock tells the story of his 24-year relationship with cannabis brought to
an abrupt halt in 2011 after an encounter with ayahuasca, the sacred visionary
brew of the Amazon. Along the way he explores the mystery of death, the problem
of consciousness, and the implications for the human future of a society that wages
total war on true cognitive liberty.

Graham Hancock is the author of The Sign and the Seal, Fingerprints of the Gods,
Keeper of Genesis, Heaven's Mirror, Supernatural and other bestselling
investigations of historical mysteries.

His books have been translated into twenty-seven languages and have sold over
five million copies worldwide. His public lectures and broadcasts, including two
major TV series, Quest for the Lost Civilisation, and Flooded Kingdoms of the Ice
Age, have further established his reputation as an unconventional thinker who
raises controversial questions about humanity's past. Hancock's first venture into
fiction, Entangled, was published in 2010 and his second novel, War God, on the
Spanish Conquest of Mexico, will be published on 30 May 2013. Hancock maintains
an active Facebook presence: http://www.facebook.com/Author.Graham.... His
website is: http://www.grahamhancock.com.

In the spirit of ideas worth spreading, TEDx is a program of local, self-organized
events that bring people together to share a TED-like experience. At a TEDx event,
TEDTalks video and live speakers combine to spark deep discussion and connection
in a small group. These local, self-organized events are branded TEDx, where x =
independently organized TED event. The TED Conference provides general guidance
for the TEDx program, but individual TEDx events are self-organized.* (*Subject to
certain rules and regulations)



http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/HancockG3.php

[Wind]

Another thread:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?55686-Graham-Hancock-on-Ayahuasca-and-more

[ViralSpiral]

9WaeMyC86Dw







Powerful message! Thanks so much for posting.

[WhiteFeather]

I also have a great respect for this Alternative Anthropologist. Graham is just awesome. ;) Asquali

Great video here IMO......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygWxXphYRos

[Youniverse]

I read through all the letters. Interesting thanks!

[vje2]

Wow!
The letters are very descriptive.
As I was reading I can almost felt I was the one experiencing everything.

I am a sentient being and back in 2011, I had a terrifying, yet powerful and loving experience with marihuana,(or God knows what was in the joint the rastafari gave me).
In hindsight I had a glass of rum and coke before + 4 puffs of the joint...and that was it.

I started to repeat "We Are All One", but even though I was saying it, I felt it was not me saying it...I could hear unified voices saying it and instilling me to repeat it.
Is complicated to explain.

The rastafari with whom I smoked told me the next day that he never experienced anything like that before. He kept on asking me questions and I kept on answering them.
I cannot remember many of the things he asked.

I have to admit that literature about ayahuasca entered my life in 2010 approx and it always have been at the back of my mind. But I never tried it, specially since this experience.

I recently had a psychic reading done by Carol Clarke and she told me that I have the ability to enter other realms of reality without the need to take any drugs. However, I have no idea how to trigger entering into these realms and what I may encounter.

With ayuhasca, at least you have a shaman that guides you, but by myself...well...frightening to say the least.
Although I've been told not to have any fear, there is no need to feel fear.

But...Graham Hancock has not made it any easier for me, after I've read his letters (4 & 5 especially).

Has anyone experienced something similar, with or without the use of drugs?
By the way, I do not smoke, neither marihuana, nor cigarretes...I only did it for the fun of it.

[Bill Ryan]

--------

I've never taken drugs in my life, but I'd venture to say that my mind is fairly wide open. There are other techniques which work extremely well, but none of them are shortcuts.

Read the brilliant and classic THE MASTER GAME (http://amazon.com/Master-Game-Robert-S-Deropp/dp/0385286325), by Robert S. de Ropp.

The book describes (among much else) how for many first-time users of mind-expanding drugs, they find themselves propelled into an astonishing and unique experience.

The trap, de Ropp explains, is to continue taking the drug thinking that this is the path to follow. It rarely is. The internal biochemical responses become gradually more limited until one is [at least] emotionally addicted to trying to re-experience the initial breakthrough.

Here's a quote from one Amazon reviewer:


Don't let the subtitle "Transcending the drug experience" alienate those who are too young to remember psychedelia.

The Master Game is not about using drugs; it's about going beyond them to personal enlightenment.

It details the games people play [much like Eric Berne (http://www.ericberne.com/Games_People_Play.htm)] then it defines the Master Game: one in which the person is not so involved with their life that their view is blinded by personal situations, much like Dyer's observer.

If you got beyond the drugs in Castaneda, you can discover the genius of The Master Game. It is truly a book to base your attitude on.


Re ayahusaca in particular, I know someone personally here in Ecuador who has over-used ayahuasca and as a summary it can be said that he is "no longer himself." It seems that there is another being in his body now, and he is no longer at home. Be very careful... you can open the door to anything, and anything may come in and make itself very much at home. After that, it can be difficult or even almost impossible to get it to go back where it came from.

[Curt]

--------

I've never taken drugs in my life, but I'd venture to say that my mind is fairly wide open. There are other techniques which work extremely well, but none of them are shortcuts.

Read the brilliant and classic THE MASTER GAME (http://amazon.com/Master-Game-Robert-S-Deropp/dp/0385286325), by Robert S. de Ropp.

The book describes (among much else) how for many first-time users of mind-expanding drugs, they find themselves propelled into an astonishing and unique experience.

The trap, de Ropp explains, is to continue taking the drug thinking that this is the path to follow. It rarely is. The internal biochemical responses become gradually more limited until one is [at least] emotionally addicted to trying to re-experience the initial breakthrough.

Here's a quote from one Amazon reviewer:


Don't let the subtitle "Transcending the drug experience" alienate those who are too young to remember psychedelia.

The Master Game is not about using drugs; it's about going beyond them to personal enlightenment.

It details the games people play [much like Eric Berne (http://www.ericberne.com/Games_People_Play.htm)] then it defines the Master Game: one in which the person is not so involved with their life that their view is blinded by personal situations, much like Dyer's observer.

If you got beyond the drugs in Castaneda, you can discover the genius of The Master Game. It is truly a book to base your attitude on.


Re ayahusaca in particular, I know someone personally here in Ecuador who has over-used ayahuasca and as a summary it can be said that he is "no longer himself." It seems that there is another being in his body now, and he is no longer at home. Be very careful... you can open the door to anything, and anything may come in and make itself very much at home. After that, it can be difficult or even almost impossible to get it to go back where it came from.

Thanks, Bill. I'd be interested in taking a look at this, especially as I've recently had my curiosity piqued to try these substances (at some point in the future, and in a correct and legal setting, I should add). I've got to think it's good to know all sides of the issue.

[SilentFeathers]

I personally think Mr. Hancock has went too far, seems all he talks about lately is tripping!

I enjoy his work, but tripping in excess and doing this crap to one's body and mind in excess would not be the wisest choice for me IMO.

http://www.vegrecipesofindia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/scrambled-eggs.jpg

[christian]

I have made some experiences with psychotropics, helpful and positive throughout. I always knew that I would not become addicted and I really only did it for the sake of the experiment, as an inspiration to explore consciousness. I knew that I would only do this in my youth and most definitely not continually throughout my life. I didn't need to do any of that, but it was an option and I chose to experience it. If you think you need to do psychotropics to develop and grow, you've lost the plot, in my opinion. I don't plan to do any psychotropics in the foreseeable future anyways, that time seems over for me.

That's also what Juan Matus told Carlos Castaneda early on, he only gave him psychotropics to shatter his narrow-minded worldview. After that was accomplished, they've been doing all the following journeys sober. All of us still have some constructs and programs running that need to be undone for us to become really free. Figuring out ways in that regard that do not involve psychotropics is generally preferable, but a zealous abstinence from something then again is just as much of an attachement as any other addiction, I figure. It's delicate!

One day in the HealingCastle there came a guy from Australia, Steven Guth (http://www.kheper.net/authors/Steven.html), who is a type of modern day monk, pilgrim, something like that. We were talking about all kinds of things, including psychotropics. He said he knew many intelligent people who out of boredom and curiosity tried a lot of stuff and decades later had really fried brains. He said all kinds of substances can propel you into other realms, but actually it's important to go there consciously, with a clear intention of why you venture there, because it's all populated. If you do it right, your guides will be with you, if you do it irresponsibly, you'll be prone to be a victim of who- or whatever wants to take advantage of you there. That being said, in some regard it's surely possible to experience both, a responsible exploration of consciousness and psychotropics.

Now where's my point in all that? Keep a cool eye, use discernment, and know that every positive thing that psychotropics can do to you, you can do by yourself.

[Bill Ryan]

every positive thing that psychotropics can do to you, you can do by yourself.

Fully agreed: this is the heart of it.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

I have been a serious student of shamanism with a very accomplished teacher for about ten years now. It is my opinion that if you are using psychotropics, you can have great mystical experiences, but you are not in control. You are wide open to influence and infiltration. You are just along for the ride.

One of the most under-taught lessons in shamanic training is self protection. My teacher requires a foundation in self protection which involves not only energetic technique, but psychological clearing and grounding, which can take years and great effort for some. Psychotropics are the opposite of grounding, self control, and self protection.

[greybeard]

Depends what you are looking for.
A great experience is not enlightenment which is a continuous state.
Even those who have a NDE come out of it--- though they are changed greatly.
Even the deepest spiritual experience in meditation is not it --- though it is very beneficial.
If there was a short cut or easy way to enlightenment it would have been found by now.
Im not taking away from the experiences of Graham Hancock.

Chris

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Ayahuasca got rid of my asthma in a single 5 hour session. Now that's a shortcut!

ANY drug when not used in a sensible way will end up being detrimental. Moderation and respect is the key. Ayahausca is safer than almost all "drugs". Legal or illegal.
Its certainly beneficial.
It has stopped diabetes, tumors and other things dead in their tracks.

Its not really even a drug, it is a plant teacher. I think over the last 100 years or so only 2 or 3 people have directly died from it and that was due to pre-existing conditions and not following the pre-diet.

Its something to be experienced, not explained IMO.

Its an amazing detox for the body and leaves you feeling filled with golden energy for days later.

It gives you what you need which is usually not what you want. And that is a good thing.

Approach with respect.

[Curt]

Graham Hancock, Terence McKenna and others have stated plainly that these botanicals are not for everyone. And that they aren't to be taken lightly or to be used recreationally. Ever.

Whiskey Mystic's comment about the need for grounding and protection in altered states seems reasonable also, especially in light of the experience Graham referenced in the OP.

I haven't made up my mind about these substances, and have not ruled out their use.

Something Joe Rogan said in his interview with Graham (in a post above) has caught my attention. They were words to the effect that 'getting through all one's own misgivings and apprehensions about ayahuasca and arriving at the decision to try it is a first test of sorts, (to weed out the merely curious, perhaps.)'

This seems true of any potentially dangerous course of action that might result in greater knowledge. It doesn't mean it should be avoided out of hand.

Also, I'm wondering whether the term 'shortcut' is really apt in describing the use of these substances.

It seems a sort of judgement-laden term that frames the debate in a less than objective way.

It may not be a shortcut at all. It may be a direct and viable route for some people.

[Joseph McAree]

Hi Bill, I love Graham Hancock' s work but I am not sure he is sending the right message on the use of drugs to his many followers, his work in my humble opinion is brilliant but I am not sure what pushed him in this direction as up until his last visit to South America he did not take the notion seriously that ET's had interacted with humans to help build great cities and buildings along with advanced intelligent civilisations, as his thoughts had always been that humans had done all this themselves but had somehow lost the knowledge and skills that they once possessed.

In the interview with David Wilcock back in early part of 2010 about his book Fingerprints of the Gods he mentions the whereabouts of the ark of the covenant I thought this should have been investigated further as it was quite intriguing. This video may have been put on before but I have added as a contrast to his current stance versus that shown on the video.

http://youtu.be/WvNEVvHgOOY


Kindest regards and best

[Youniverse]

I have made some experiences with psychotropics, helpful and positive throughout. I always knew that I would not become addicted and I really only did it for the sake of the experiment, as an inspiration to explore consciousness. I knew that I would only do this in my youth and most definitely not continually throughout my life. I didn't need to do any of that, but it was an option and I chose to experience it. If you think you need to do psychotropics to develop and grow, you've lost the plot, in my opinion. I don't plan to do any psychotropics in the foreseeable future anyways, that time seems over for me.

That's also what Juan Matus told Carlos Castaneda early on, he only gave him psychotropics to shatter his narrow-minded worldview. After that was accomplished, they've been doing all the following journeys sober. All of us still have some constructs and programs running that need to be undone for us to become really free. Figuring out ways in that regard that do not involve psychotropics is generally preferable, but a zealous abstinence from something then again is just as much of an attachement as any other addiction, I figure. It's delicate!

One day in the HealingCastle there came a guy from Australia, Steven Guth (http://www.kheper.net/authors/Steven.html), who is a type of modern day monk, pilgrim, something like that. We were talking about all kinds of things, including psychotropics. He said he knew many intelligent people who out of boredom and curiosity tried a lot of stuff and decades later had really fried brains. He said all kinds of substances can propel you into other realms, but actually it's important to go there consciously, with a clear intention of why you venture there, because it's all populated. If you do it right, your guides will be with you, if you do it irresponsibly, you'll be prone to be a victim of who- or whatever wants to take advantage of you there. That being said, in some regard it's surely possible to experience both, a responsible exploration of consciousness and psychotropics.

Now where's my point in all that? Keep a cool eye, use discernment, and know that every positive thing that psychotropics can do to you, you can do by yourself.

You made some valuable points here Christian, as did Bill. Thank-you! As a person that has never done any drugs in my life(though I've used my share of alcohol if that counts, I don't drink anymore), I use a very cautious approach with those substances. Still I am very interested in the subject of entheogens and that is what led me to read [U]The Spirit Molecule[U] by Rick Strassman. I found that book very fascinating. I don't know if I'd ever try any psychodelic drugs, but if I did I would try to do it in the safest, most responsible way possible, with the help of an experienced guide. I would echo what Bill said, in that I feel I already have an open enough mind and awareness of things. I say that with a great deal of humility because I know there is so much I don't know as well. I also wanted to add that Rick Strassman concluded from his experiments that pure DMT was non-addictive and one cannot develop a tolerance to its effects. Still, it makes sense to me that someone could 'fry their brain,' when you consider that the body(without upgrades) at a given point in time can only process so much information and too great an influx could cause a short out! The other point about some malevolent entity entering your body and staying there is well taken as well. Though, given the proper methods and responsible use, such cases are probably rare. And as Strassman pointed out, many people in N.America took these plants/chemicals from S.America and abused them in recreational use, instead of the way and purpose they were traditionally used for.

I will sincerely keep your words, Christian and Bill, in mind, if I ever consider trying entheogens someday.

[blufire]

I have recounted my experience with ayahuasca and medicinal plants from the rain forest several times on the forum when this subject is brought up and so I will not do so here again. My personal education and experience is from an extended stay in Belize and Guatemala while studying medicinal rainforest plants and exploring the Mayan ruins.

I do want to say though it still totally mortifies and dumfounds me that people like Hancock are taken for granted that he knows what he is talking about.

Ayahuasca is a concoction of several plants and herbs from the rainforests. He (Hancock) speaks of ayahuasca as the ‘vine of souls’ . . . . the vine he speaks of that is most often used in brewing this complex tea is ONLY THE DELIVERY SYSTEM of the other herbs used in a true ayahuasca. It is the ‘other plants’ that in the mayan culture that enables the elders to have visions and insight.

“The vine” that he speaks of and that is sold all over the internet grows everywhere in the rainforests . . . .there is also the ‘false counterpart’ of this vine that also gets sold along with the true vine. So this vine is used in massive quantities because it is so readily available and dirt cheap.

This vine is also what causes the drinker to purge (vomit) . . . sometimes to the point of dehydration and collapse.

When I see individuals that have over used ayahuasca and especially for ego selfish purposes I am sadly reminded of my Mom who is currently in stage 3 Alzheimer’s. As Bill recounted . . . .they, as a coherent individual, are no longer there. I see the same blank look and inability to cognitively relate to reality and their own personhood. They are ‘gone’.

I have complete faith and belief that when we are ready to see the deeper Truths and Insight we will and do. I also believe strongly that we should work diligently to have patience for these Truths and Insight to come to us naturally. It is my experience when they come naturally as we are ‘ready’ to see and hear them . . . . they stay with us and become an integrated part of who we are and were.

Be patient and be still and wait and listen and hear . . . .

[Youniverse]

I have recounted my experience with ayahuasca and medicinal plants from the rain forest several times on the forum when this subject is brought up and so I will not do so here again. My personal education and experience is from an extended stay in Belize and Guatemala while studying medicinal rainforest plants and exploring the Mayan ruins.

I do want to say though it still totally mortifies and dumfounds me that people like Hancock are taken for granted that he knows what he is talking about.

Ayahuasca is a concoction of several plants and herbs from the rainforests. He (Hancock) speaks of ayahuasca as the ‘vine of souls’ . . . . the vine he speaks of that is most often used in brewing this complex tea is ONLY THE DELIVERY SYSTEM of the other herbs used in a true ayahuasca. It is the ‘other plants’ that in the mayan culture that enables the elders to have visions and insight.

“The vine” that he speaks of and that is sold all over the internet grows everywhere in the rainforests . . . .there is also the ‘false counterpart’ of this vine that also gets sold along with the true vine. So this vine is used in massive quantities because it is so readily available and dirt cheap.

This vine is also what causes the drinker to purge (vomit) . . . sometimes to the point of dehydration and collapse.

When I see individuals that have over used ayahuasca and especially for ego selfish purposes I am sadly reminded of my Mom who is currently in stage 3 Alzheimer’s. As Bill recounted . . . .they, as a coherent individual, are no longer there. I see the same blank look and inability to cognitively relate to reality and their own personhood. They are ‘gone’.

I have complete faith and belief that when we are ready to see the deeper Truths and Insight we will and do. I also believe strongly that we should work diligently to have patience for these Truths and Insight to come to us naturally. It is my experience when they come naturally as we are ‘ready’ to see and hear them . . . . they stay with us and become an intergraded part of who we are and were.

Be patient and be still and wait and listen and hear . . . .

Thank-you very much! I believe that is great advice!

[Carmody]

every positive thing that psychotropics can do to you, you can do by yourself.

Fully agreed: this is the heart of it.

The key being that people desire to reach out and press the enlightenment button. They don't want to do the work and don't want to commit to the dedication required to get there.

This is where the false crutch, the shortcut of using these psychotropics, steps in. They can have it on tap, yet have their life of doing and being other things. In this way, they can still join with their everyday life and go 'tripping balls' when they want to.

The issue is one of a split. A half-way stretch, where one is not functioning properly in either space. Where either is not fully integrated. A split, not a wholeness in life.

it's like having a desire to change but refusing to give up the old habits and ways..that have to be given up on, in order to change. To get to that change in a way that is stable and long term, requires the slow steady and stable long term effort. No short cuts, not buttons to press for short time circus rides. Just get down to it in the long term, and get it done.

The drug can be used as a glimpse of potential, but the problem is that the mind is not set up for those discoveries. Taking the long ride of change and moving into it, ensures that one is ready for it, as it evolves in the person.

The reason the practitioners of this drug experience are so careful in the set-up and the process of taking and experiencing, is that they know this. That the drug and the experiencing of it.. is not a substitute for evolution and correct internal change in the long term, done over the long term.



It's a case of:

Here's the kind of experience you might have, but out of context and shape as you are not really there and do not know the meaning and shape of any of this as no matter how much you think you are prepared, you are not.

Now you know that there is a 'pay off', if you return to this regular world you occupy and get down the business of moving toward it in full and completeness. You know, real change, real dedication, real action with and of the self. And if you work your way to it, without the drugs , the context and meanings, the communication of it will be far more lucid and understood. And most importantly, one will have developed a integration system in the self that functions, whenever and wherever, which the drug ride has nothing of.

[Youniverse]

every positive thing that psychotropics can do to you, you can do by yourself.

Fully agreed: this is the heart of it.

The key being that people desire to reach out and press the enlightenment button. They don't want to do the work and don't want to commit to the dedication required to get there.

This is where the false crutch, the shortcut of using these psychotropics, steps in. They can have it on tap, yet have their life of doing and being other things. In this way, they can still join with their everyday life and go 'tripping balls' when they want to.

The issue is one of a split. A half-way stretch, where one is not functioning properly in either space. Where either is not fully integrated. A split, not a wholeness in life.

it's like having a desire to change but refusing to give up the old habits and ways..that have to be given up on, in order to change. To get to that change in a way that is stable and long term, requires the slow steady and stable long term effort. No short cuts, not buttons to press for short time circus rides. Just get down to it in the long term, and get it done.

Excellent! And with that I am most certain I have no NEED to try any psychotropics. The only reason I would have tried them was out of curiosity and experimentation anyways. Not because I need them to grow. I actually have found that the more I simplify my life, clearing away obstructions and inessentials, the more I SEE.

[Youniverse]

every positive thing that psychotropics can do to you, you can do by yourself.

Fully agreed: this is the heart of it.

The key being that people desire to reach out and press the enlightenment button. They don't want to do the work and don't want to commit to the dedication required to get there.

This is where the false crutch, the shortcut of using these psychotropics, steps in. They can have it on tap, yet have their life of doing and being other things. In this way, they can still join with their everyday life and go 'tripping balls' when they want to.

The issue is one of a split. A half-way stretch, where one is not functioning properly in either space. Where either is not fully integrated. A split, not a wholeness in life.

it's like having a desire to change but refusing to give up the old habits and ways..that have to be given up on, in order to change. To get to that change in a way that is stable and long term, requires the slow steady and stable long term effort. No short cuts, not buttons to press for short time circus rides. Just get down to it in the long term, and get it done.

The drug can be used as a glimpse of potential, but the problem is that the mind is not set up for those discoveries. Taking the long ride of change and moving into it, ensures that one is ready for it, as it evolves in the person.

The reason the practitioners of this drug experience are so careful in the set-up and the process of taking and experiencing, is that they know this. That the drug and the experiencing of it.. is not a substitute for evolution and correct internal change in the long term, done over the long term.



It's a case of:

Here's the kind of experience you might have, but out of context and shape as you are not really there and do not know the meaning and shape of any of this as no matter how much you think you are prepared, you are not.

Now you know that there is a 'pay off', if you return to this regular world you occupy and get down the business of moving toward it in full and completeness. You know, real change, real dedication, real action with and of the self. And if you work your way to it, without the drugs , the context and meanings, the communication of it will be far more lucid and understood. And most importantly, one will have developed a integration system in the self that functions, whenever and wherever, which the drug ride has nothing of.

It makes sense too when you consider a relatively awakened person speaking to a slumbering person about certain topics. To the 'sleepy' person the awakened person is speaking jibberish or incoherent, where to another awakened person he/she is making perfect sense.

[Curt]

A popular argument against the use of these botanicals appears to be the idea that they are a 'shortcut', which reads to me like an intellectually dishonest argument. It may not be a 'shortcut' at all. It may be a direct and viable route for some people to take. So, to frame it as 'do you want to take a shortcut' or 'do you want to get there on your own steam' is to shift the discussion in a way that favors the second point of view.

Another popular argument against these substances is the idea that anything they (these substances) can do, you can do for yourself anyway, so there's little point. But, is it really true that these substances don't offer anything that can't be gotten through meditation or study or dietary practice, etc? If so, I'd be interested to know what other means can provide a similar experience.

And then there are the ad hominem attacks on the people who write/speak favorably of these substances. They are called flaky, and past their prime, etc. People wish that such and such a writer would just get back to doing their 'good' work...

Then there are the knee-jerk anti-drug arguments that lot these substances together with all drugs.

However, certain 'substances' need not fall into the conventional classification of a 'drug', and might more aptly be called something else entirely.

And then there are the vague reports of people with extreme burnout from taking this stuff. People are reported to suffer from dementia type symptoms because of it. Such and such a person knows such and such a person who is a wreck now and it's all from having greedily taken vast amounts of ayahuasca. Is this true? Is there a causal relationship between the two?

More importantly, is it true to a significant enough degree to rule out taking these substances altogether?

There are people who abuse most any substance and whose lives are ruined by them. People should be careful with any substance. But do these specific botanicals represent a substantially greater than average rate of addiction than other 'substances'?

Are these substances classically 'addictive' at all?

And just to be clear, I'm not sure whether I will try any or all of them. But, when I see the absolutism in the opinions of those who would not have people try these things, I can't help but wonder why rational people are suddenly no longer objective, but have formed staunch opinions against the use of these things.

[write4change]

I have been a serious student of shamanism with a very accomplished teacher for about ten years now. It is my opinion that if you are using psychotropics, you can have great mystical experiences, but you are not in control. You are wide open to influence and infiltration. You are just along for the ride.

One of the most under-taught lessons in shamanic training is self protection. My teacher requires a foundation in self protection which involves not only energetic technique, but psychological clearing and grounding, which can take years and great effort for some. Psychotropics are the opposite of grounding, self control, and self protection.

I am of two minds with all of this. In a nutshell both are true.

First, I am in agreement with Hancock and McKenna that this is more than anything an assault on consciousness. The theory that if we did evolve into consciousness suddenly has to be the result of something. If not aliens, than the one real possibility is from eating psychedelic plants and there is strong evidence to support that theory. So it was a natural process which seems to have evolved into a sacred group experience of ritual and honoring the plant, the planet, and the experience.

Everyone I know who does this for this reason always stresses, context, environment, and experienced guides.

There is broad range of intelligence of many kinds within humans. No one has the right to decide who needs to do what with their minds. Many things are addictive to the mind. For some it is gambling, drinking, and sexing and for some it is thinking, meditating, and reading----with lots of stuff in between. Lots of drugs are given to people by doctors and big pharma to prevent them from even conceiving of an inner life. Once having a nervous breakdown or a major heart attack was a life changing experience for most people---now it is take a pill or these pills and everything returns to normal until you do finally die. Lately, we are giving this stuff to children younger and younger. Most of these pills inhibit emotion and thinking.

I had an NDE at 4 so I look back and think that was a big beginning and certainly changed the course of my life. It has allowed me to die easily and I have done so again at 26 and 58. These were much more conscious and allowed me to go deeper down and or across with less and less fear and more and more understanding. It also tempered my pride of intellect and judgment.

I have the kind of mind that does not like to be out of control ever. I also have an over sensitive body that I know does not like drugs of any kind as a whole. More than two drinks and I am sick. I have had one hangover in my life that is how bad the experience of not wanting to ever do that again is for me. Until 26, I had swallowed the whole PTB belief system. I had been married for 7 years without an orgasm and had been told my doctor it was a myth like other fairy tales. I had come to the time where I had done all the things I was told would make me happy and I was numb. I am grateful I arrived there at 26.

Then I had my first weekend of love. I had prepared well for nothing to happen and it happened inspite of me. I cannot smoke at all. So my lover of a life time kissed me deeply blowing the smoke down my throat at the same time. It was enough to truly relax me for the first time. There is much documentation that for women their first sexual release came with mj as a helper. Somehow--I think through the grace of the universe--we spontaneously did a mini tantra initiation. We have both become after our forties tantra masters and through totally separate teachings and experiences. So we both look back on that weekend with awe.

At 26 I did not know this was profound love. I was sure it was great sex and so was he. Like most of these experiences, my proof of the pudding was how did it change your life? Up to that time, I was Catholic and profoundly convinced that sex was necessary but not very nice and if I was a really good girl I would have been a nun. This experience was not just he and I but he and I enrapped with god the spirit and it was all good. This was a deeply profound experience and one I could not talk about for decades not even to my lover. At that time there was no recongnition for this, I thought I was a little crazy. But to myself I could not deny the profoundity of the experience. For me it was real. For me sex was the short cut. And that is what tantra is about which is why sex is so repressed in our society just like psychedelic plants.

And of course, I wanted it again. Now how was I going to get that. My lover and I lived three thousand miles apart and he never indicated it was anything but sex for him and so I did the same. I was a single catholic mother in a very catholic family who felt she needed to **** her brains out and of course that was not going to happen--right now. I profound experience changes your thinking---not just what was that??? but how do I get there again??? and interesting enough a concept that this was a gift from god and I was not worthy of it again.

I became aware of two things---I was a liar especially to myself and I was a hypochrondiac. I could immediately stop the hypochrondia and did but the lying took a lot of work. I left Texas moved to California permanently and stopped seeing my family for 16 years. I was afraid of being a single mother without support something I never intended for my life in any way. I was afraid of really being alone and having to make my own choices. But I began a life of feel the fear and do it anyway.

I lived in San Francisco and my lover lived in Long Beach. For ten years we saw each other once a month or so. We both did a lot of ****ing---mentally, physically, and emotiionally. We both have no memories of talking about it then. When we were together we were together. We both wanted really different things. At that time I was really materialistic and he was not. I wanted a house, a picket fence and children and he did not. We both had huge egos. I would try and plan events to trigger that first experience and failed utterly. But every once and a while, the universe would give us a gift and I began to have OBE with sex. Again I thought I was crazy and would not talk about it.

In all this, life stepped in. One boyfriend put LSD in my drink and I had a psychotic break as they call it. But I saw auras for the first time and I saw people with animal faces. I absolutely knew I was on a drug and yet.... I began feeling I was going up and started screaming I want to get down but I was foreced to go with it. That experience lastested three days. And I had flash back for three weeks and I felt very fragile. It did not help that my hippie friends would say you were psychically fragile suck it up type stuff. that was who I was at that time. I came from that experience with this concept. A person with a fever of 104 may see black things on the wall and those who are not feverish say it is a hallucination but I consider that it may take a 104 fever to see the black things on the wall that are there all the times. Since then for me reality has always been questionable.

In this period of time, my husband and I had lived apart for years but not gotten a legal divorce. I had put him through medical school and now the dissolution came into California instead of divorce. In effect, it did a way with alimony or reparations. I wanted back what I had paid to him since he never worked in our marriage. He refused but he was a doctor now. And there was a psychic diagnosis then of women not being content to a women's role or something to that effect. And on his say so I could be hospitalized for six weeks. So I was and I was drugged up on thorazine and haldol. I became a zombie. I lived in a tunnel I had no energy to escape. I knew I was there from drugs but did not care about anything even life. I got down to 72 pounds went into a coma for 9 days and had my second NDE. I met my grandfather and four other beings and I was given the choice to go or stay. I was told I was half way through my choices and I had chosen everything my parents etc. All my life until he died a year before this my grandfather always told me I had eyes bigger than my stomach and I always bit off more than I can chew. So I chose way too much for this single incarnation against the advice of my spiritual guides but I was stubborned and determined than and this was the result of free choice--mine. So I got back in the body which was really ****ing painful and mostly destroyed and took a whole year to return to reasonable normal. My reward was hearing music the whole time which promptly stopped exactly one year later. This time I had no desire to talk to anyone about this NDE but it took me seven years to totally process it.

This time I took up the role of the conscious seeker which I have never given up. I pursued becoming a tantric master at 45 and sex has remained my short cut. Ironically, I lived a celebrate life since 1997 but I think and study sex a lot. After 28 years, my lover and I found each other on the internet. He now lives in Guam. For the first time in our lives, we learned to speak intimately on the internet. At 65, I had the greatest sex in my life and I am pleased to find that to be true. This is the only man I have loved heart mind body and soul and loving him as been a process within me. Knowing that for sure became the final integration. We still want different things. He has built a small empire there and he is now the materialist and I am not. And so it goes.


What bothers me most on this site is the judgment we keep going to and the ego defences we use. The world is diverse and nature is constantly trying something different. We are no better or worse---we are different. My big bias remains being intolerant of intolerance.

I do not know if I got this thread all topic, I only know for the first time in a long time, I felt compelled to write this.

[Bill Ryan]

And then there are the vague reports of people with extreme burnout from taking this stuff.

Not vague at all. :) If you take the word "vague" out of the above, that sentence is quite true.

I could go into detail, including the book the person has written and their website, but feel it wouldn't be appropriate to name them here as they are a semi-public figure (not Graham Hancock himself, btw.)

This person has undergone a marked and long-lasting personality change (at least one year long with no sign of any reversion), is far less sharp intellectually, and has demonstrated substantial lack of personal integrity (another change). Everyone who knows him has remarked on this. It really is as if there is another being there who has taken over.


People are reported to suffer from dementia type symptoms because of it.

That's correct.


[I]Such and such a person knows such and such a person who is a wreck now and it's all from having greedily taken vast amounts of ayahuasca. Is this true?

Yes -- but I'd take out the word "greedy" (apparently it is often very unpleasant to take). In the case of the person mentioned above, it seems to have became an emotional dependence.


Is there a causal relationship between the two?

Yes, I'd say beyond reasonable doubt.

[confused]

Also, I'm wondering whether the term 'shortcut' is really apt in describing the use of these substances.

It seems a sort of judgement-laden term that frames the debate in a less than objective way.

It may not be a shortcut at all. It may be a direct and viable route for some people.

Well said. I agree that if it is used/abused with the intention of it being a shortcut, then this is problematic. However, these substances can very well kickstart one's journey toward enlightenment, toward truth. It is something that can show you where you want to go, or what you need to do, when it has before been hidden from you or you have been hiding from it.

Some people like David Icke, and Bill Hicks, are examples of when these kinds of substances can be beneficial. Bill Hicks and his friend met aliens when tripping on mushrooms that explained to them the nature of reality. This I think was a truly transformative experience for him that he may have never experienced before his death.

Of course, I only think this argument holds until the first time you "get it." Afterwards I think it can be considered abusing it and dangerous. If you are already aware enough that you are on the journey, then I don't think you need the substances. The only truly psychedelic substance I've ever taken (not counting weaker substances like marijuana) was mushrooms. Great few experiences until the last time I tried it 8 years ago and I had a bad trip. I thought I could literally "see" the evil around me. I didn't actually see anything but I could "feel" a dark, greenish haze everywhere. I felt surrounded by it. I felt like I was going to die, surrounded by hell. Terrible experience.

Most of my experiences with drugs have been positive, and overall transformative. It is unfortunate that I was an adolescent when I started going down the drug road with no true guidance in such matters. I became addicted but I believe if I was older and had better guidance that would not have happened.

[RMorgan]

Re ayahusaca in particular, I know someone personally here in Ecuador who has over-used ayahuasca and as a summary it can be said that he is "no longer himself." It seems that there is another being in his body now, and he is no longer at home. Be very careful... you can open the door to anything, and anything may come in and make itself very much at home. After that, it can be difficult or even almost impossible to get it to go back where it came from.

I know dozens of people like this, Bill.

Ayahuasca is extremely potent; Definitively not be used regularly.

The problem is that its use is attached to religious rituals, and people start taking it every week.

After a while, ayahuasca users become something like love and light zombies; There´s a lot of brainwashing in ayahuasca rituals.

The good news is that, in most cases, the effect is not permanent, so most people go back to being themselves, some months after stopping using it.

Raf.

[Curt]

And then there are the vague reports of people with extreme burnout from taking this stuff.

Not vague at all. :) If you take the word "vague" out of the above, that sentence is quite true.

I could go into detail, including the book the person has written and their website, but feel it wouldn't be appropriate to name them here as they are a semi-public figure (not Graham Hancock himself, btw.)

This person has undergone a marked and long-lasting personality change (at least one year long with no sign of any reversion), is far less sharp intellectually, and has demonstrated substantial lack of personal integrity (another change). Everyone who knows him has remarked on this. It really is as if there is another being there who has taken over.


People are reported to suffer from dementia type symptoms because of it.

That's correct.


[I]Such and such a person knows such and such a person who is a wreck now and it's all from having greedily taken vast amounts of ayahuasca. Is this true?

Yes -- but I'd take out the word "greedy" (apparently it is often very unpleasant to take). In the case of the person mentioned above, it seems to have became an emotional dependence.


Is there a causal relationship between the two?

Yes, I'd say beyond reasonable doubt.

Information like this should absolutely be considered when making the personal decision whether to explore one of these substances. There's no question about that. People need a full, fair picture in which each piece of evidence is viewed in context.

[blufire]

I have also always wondered why someone who uses ayahuasca or other entheogens to achieve enlightenment or other elusive insights, why do they have to use them over and over or increasingly stronger drugs.

Why can they not retain what they ‘see’ when using these substances? It has been my experience that when I finally understand a deeper Truth, I don’t forget it . . . it becomes part of who I am.

I believe if you are not ‘ready’ to receive enlightenment or Truths or Insights then you will not fully understand or hear them.

I also believe we ‘hear or see’ what we are meant to in this lifetime. I feel it is far more important what we DO with these insights once we do remember them than the desire to hear or see more and more.

[Christine]

Graham Hancock, Terence McKenna and others have stated plainly that these botanicals are not for everyone. And that they aren't to be taken lightly or to be used recreationally. Ever.

Whiskey Mystic's comment about the need for grounding and protection in altered states seems reasonable also, especially in light of the experience Graham referenced in the OP.

I haven't made up my mind about these substances, and have not ruled out their use.

Something Joe Rogan said in his interview with Graham (in a post above) has caught my attention. They were words to the effect that 'getting through all one's own misgivings and apprehensions about ayahuasca and arriving at the decision to try it is a first test of sorts, (to weed out the merely curious, perhaps.)'

This seems true of any potentially dangerous course of action that might result in greater knowledge. It doesn't mean it should be avoided out of hand.

Also, I'm wondering whether the term 'shortcut' is really apt in describing the use of these substances.

It seems a sort of judgement-laden term that frames the debate in a less than objective way.

It may not be a shortcut at all. It may be a direct and viable route for some people.

While I agree in theory, I would again underline to the need to exercise extreme precaution. For most people I would say they are consciously or unconsciously seeking a shortcut. Anyone who is a serious student knows the intense amount work involved in personal clearing that is necessary to have any direct experience of personal clarity.

When used properly in the right circumstance and under the guidance of a fully ethical being it is possible to have a direct healing experience, I would not discount that. However, this is the large caveat - those set of perimeters are sorely lacking in our current world. And since the use of this powerful medicine comes from a people living in the natural world, relatively uncorrupted by the things we are bombarded with it is possible their relationship to the effects of ayahuasca would be distinct from someone embedded in the modern, contaminated paradigm.

I have more often than not observed a warped psyche as the result of the use of ayahuasca.

[RMorgan]

Information like this should absolutely be considered when making the personal decision whether to explore one of these substances. There's no question about that. People need a full, fair picture in which each piece of evidence is viewed in context.

Hey Curt,

Well, using it a couple of times, just to experience with its effects a bit, is, most of the time, harmless.

However, in South-America, its use is only allowed in religious context, so people are obliged to attend to such religious rituals to take it legally; That´s where the danger is.

When your mind is driven to such an altered state of consciousness, you become very susceptible to brainwashing, and that´s what happens in such cults.

I´d say people don´t become addicted to ayahuasca itself, they become addicted to the religion, then, just like Christians go the the mass every Sunday, people start talking ayahuasca every week.

As a side note, people with family cases of mental illness should absolutely stay away from it; It most certainly is a one way trip for people who are genetically susceptible to develop mental illness.

Raf.

[Freed Fox]

From what I understand, it would be very difficult to actually become addicted to ayahuasca. It is not described as a pleasant experience (bodily). Even spiritually, it can expose you to some very harsh lessons. Not impossible, of course. With the confluence of personality, genetics, and substance, addiction can take almost any form.

I wholeheartedly agree with those advocating caution above all other considerations here. Regardless of what one believes about the substances and their potential merits, they are not to be trifled with. Again, the right combination of personality, genetics, and substance can produce either very positive or very negative results.

Having said all of that, I would very much like to try ayahuasca someday, but only with an experienced shaman and in the proper setting. I think, because of that, it will surely either manifest or not. I believe as blufire suggested; the experiences we require are always presented over the course of our lives. Some people need to take certain avenues above others. It may merely be a matter of compatibility.

[blufire]

As a side note, people with family cases of mental illness should absolutely stay away from it; It most certainly is a one way trip for people who are genetically susceptible to develop mental illness.

Hey Raf . . . . . I am highly aware of this aspect. Both my grandmother and my mother developed dementia or alzheimer’s. It is my understanding that this is genetic and even though they both developed this ‘state’ well into their 80’s it is without a doubt the most difficult thing to be a part of. It is called the Long Goodbye for a very real reason.

I take herbals that support good mental health and brain function but am aware that this may well be my destiny in the next 30 to 40 years.

I am resolved that at the point I feel I am slipping into this world, I have a cabin deep into the mountains that no one is aware of and this will become my final ‘resting place’.

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Re ayahusaca in particular, I know someone personally here in Ecuador who has over-used ayahuasca and as a summary it can be said that he is "no longer himself." It seems that there is another being in his body now, and he is no longer at home. Be very careful... you can open the door to anything, and anything may come in and make itself very much at home. After that, it can be difficult or even almost impossible to get it to go back where it came from.

I know dozens of people like this, Bill.

Ayahuasca is extremely potent; Definitively not be used regularly.

The problem is that its use is attached to religious rituals, and people start taking it every week.

After a while, ayahuasca users become something like love and light zombies; There´s a lot of brainwashing in ayahuasca rituals.

The good news is that, in most cases, the effect is not permanent, so most people go back to being themselves, some months after stopping using it.

Raf.

This thread seems a bit one sided. Peruvian shamans have used Aya every month for their whole lives and are wiser than most.
Mayn live until they are in their hundreds. Don't blame Aya for people losing it.
Its about personal responsibility IMO.
Blame the person taking it and their over use and lack of moderation or training.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I have also always wondered why someone who uses ayahuasca or other entheogens to achieve enlightenment or other elusive insights, why do they have to use them over and over or increasingly stronger drugs.




They don't. I didn't. The truth I discovered from it, I still carry with me and build on.

¤=[Post Update]=¤




Information like this should absolutely be considered when making the personal decision whether to explore one of these substances. There's no question about that. People need a full, fair picture in which each piece of evidence is viewed in context.

Hey Curt,

Well, using it a couple of times, just to experience with its effects a bit, is, most of the time, harmless.

However, in South-America, its use is only allowed in religious context, so people are obliged to attend to such religious rituals to take it legally; That´s where the danger is.



I don't think this is true. You can take it legally without being a church member I think. There are Aya churches but its best to keep away. Take it with the Shipibo or some other amazon peoples who have no religion.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


There´s a lot of brainwashing in ayahuasca rituals.



Which ones?

[Neal]

...

I recently had a psychic reading done by Carol Clarke and she told me that I have the ability to enter other realms of reality without the need to take any drugs. However, I have no idea how to trigger entering into these realms and what I may encounter.

With ayuhasca, at least you have a shaman that guides you, but by myself...well...frightening to say the least.
Although I've been told not to have any fear, there is no need to feel fear.

But...Graham Hancock has not made it any easier for me, after I've read his letters (4 & 5 especially).

Has anyone experienced something similar, with or without the use of drugs?
By the way, I do not smoke, neither marihuana, nor cigarettes...I only did it for the fun of it.


--------

I've never taken drugs in my life, but I'd venture to say that my mind is fairly wide open. There are other techniques which work extremely well, but none of them are shortcuts.

Bill, if I may ask, what "other techniques" were you referring to?

I ask this because I am someone who is curious of the consciousness opening/raising aspects of some psychotropic botanical products and I do have a respect for the possible effects or outcomes that can happen from use/abuse. However, I understand that I have this capability within myself right now and can do this without drugs or external aids, but the amount of information out there (in the forms of books, videos, websites, etc.) is daunting and I have so far done my best to wade through it all...

Does anybody else have any suggestions on what techniques work?

[write4change]

Does anybody else have any suggestions on what techniques work?[/QUOTE]

Well, there are spontaneous happenings like meditating on a cloud while lying on the earth to find yourself in another time and place. That is why there are pligrimages like the Way of St. James. Martin Sheen stars in a movie about it. Some books and movies will lead to lucid dreaming that leads to more door openings if you are into going there. I think a lot of science fiction authors do that particularly Jules Verne and Edgar Rice Bourroughs reading these young open my mind and imagination and led to similar experiences I felt were possible but not probable that I now could express as congruence theory of manifesting.

Then there is sex and tantric ritual sex. I address that on post 25 which most of the guys here will not touch. I think sex as a short cut to profound experience is harder for men because it is external for men and internal for women. To invite a man to really come inside and grok and make him feel this a real soft place to fall is not their concept of sex.

[RMorgan]

I don't think this is true. You can take it legally without being a church member I think. There are Aya churches but its best to keep away. Take it with the Shipibo or some other amazon peoples who have no religion.[COLOR="red"]


Well, South-American nations protect indigenous cultures to some extent, so yes, you can have Ayahuasca during indigenous rituals, just like many other indigenous potent hallucinogenics drugs.

However, as an example, if you start to produce it at home, or use it as a recreational drug, at least here in Brazil it is considered a crime.

The most disseminated Ayahuasca centered religion in South-America is Santo Daime (http://www.santodaime.org/indexy.htm). This is where the brainwashing happens; They drink it, then spend 12 hours or more dancing and singing repetitive Christian hymns; As a religion, it´s got no solidity at all. It´s a poorly balanced mix of indigenous rites and Christianity, led by unenlightened people. Everyone who became affiliated with this religion, become "zombified" after a while.

As for taking it with a Shaman, well, I have no experience with it. Honestly, I´ve never met a genuine indigenous Shaman. I´ve met many charlatans, though.

Raf.

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

I guess I have been lucky. I met maybe 10 that are the real deal. Shamans in their own communities.

[Freed Fox]

EYES WIDE; were they all based in South America? And were any of them part of a larger religious group (like Santo Daime), or were they unaffiliated as such? Asking out of curiosity, mostly... Thanks.

[Youniverse]

Dr. Gabor Mate did a study a few years back on the potential therapeutic use of ayahuasca. Though his study showed mixed results(it was only a short term study with a small group), he did say that according to his research(he went to Spain where the largest body of documentation on pro-longed ayahuasca use is), ayahuasca has no long term effects on regular users. Now I believe the bulk of the users they studied were shamanic type people that likely used it more responsibly than others. So both arguments regarding the harmful effects of regualr ayahuasca use may be correct. It's just that some may not know what they're doing when using it. If I was going to use it, I'd for sure go to the people that have been using it for thousands of years. They'd probably know what they're doing.

There are some encouraging results in the treatment of mental illnesses like OCD with ayahuasca. I asked Gabor Mate a while back if ayahuasca would be effective in treating OCD. Making a long answer short, he said yes. Pscillocybin or "magic mushrooms" has also shown some success in treating OCD.

I don't believe it would be wise or fair to judge someone for using entheogens. At the same time it would not be wise to say that someone that chooses to refrain from using them, cannot reach the same level of spiritual awareness and wisdom as a user. But for me personally, I would say I'd prefer not to use them. However, I love reading the testimonies of others that have had some unbelievably amazing experiences using entheogens. And there does seem to be a strong correlation between entheogen experiences, NDE's, and alien abductions.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Oh and I forgot to add that Dr. Mate also found, through his research, that long term regular users of ayahuasca commonly have improved cognitive function.

[zenith]

I've never taken drugs in my life,
What about Coffee, Tea, Sugar, Tobacco, Alcohol or any Natural or Pharmaceutical Medication?
If the answer is affirmative you get a round of applause from me. :)

Peace

[Ultima Thule]

In comparison I would - without knowing the first thing about ayahuasca personally - liken the "reasonable" use to a near death experience or the like, resulting in shifting the paradigm of a person to a more wide one, with spiritual development nearer to the center of gravity. One-off-type of experience would possibly do just what is needed?

UT

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

EYES WIDE; were they all based in South America? And were any of them part of a larger religious group (like Santo Daime), or were they unaffiliated as such? Asking out of curiosity, mostly... Thanks.

None of them were of a large church group.

I used to help run this non profit Aya site a few years back that ran trips to Peru:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070129104534/http://www.jungletrips.co.uk/




THE SHIPIBO

The Shipibo Conibo Indians live along the Ucayali River in the Peruvian Amazon & number about 35,000 in about 120 communities. They are among the few indigenous cultures that have remained relatively intact by outsiders.( Despite contact with Christian Missionaries & white or mestizo civilisations over the years.) Their history reaches back over 1200 years and most of their customs have changed very little. But this is beginning to change due to their proximity to the nearby town of Pucullpa. Unfortunately, it is inevitable that they will soon be drawn into modern trade and exploitation & risk losing their ancient customs. They only use barter for trade & because of encroaching modernisation, they are now facing an economical crises.

WHERE YOUR MONEY GOES

There is a local comitte comprised of the most respected members of the village, they directly take care of all the benefits that each group of visitors bring to the village so that the entire community is able to prosper and not just a few. The income that comes from each group is invested in important tools such as big fishing nets or wood saws that will allow the village to compete against the commercial fishing and timber companies who deplete the natural resources of the area taking as much as they want, often by unethical means, and leaving little left for the village. The Masha Association are also able to purchase medicinal, educational and other supplies that are essential to the village. In this way our Jungle Trips are not a charity organization to 'help the Indians' as if they were people unable to decide by themselves what they would like in their future

ACCOMODATION & FOOD

The basic accommodation is as follows: 4 huts, (3 are for resting and 1 for the Ayahuasca and Healing sessions) there are 3 latrines , there are 2 shower baths (using barrels of water), also, there is plenty of potable drinking water. There is no electric light. Oil burners are used in the evenings. We stay in wooden cabins like those of the villagers and all the beds have mosquito nets for extra protection. The food is prepared and served by the women of the village who cook in the communal kitchen. The three meals a day mainly consist of fish, yucca, rice, plantin, fruit and herbal tea as this is the food that the villagers themselves eat.


SPIRITUAL HEALING & AYAHUASCA

We consider your time in the jungle as an excellent opportunity to allow your body to heal and we also include many treatments prepared by the Shamans such as herbal baths and steams that help you to do this. Combined with the naturally grown and prepared food, we hope that you will leave the jungle feeling refreshed, rejuvenated and with a heightened perspective of the beauty and delicacy of our Pachamama (mother earth). In respect of this we ask that you see this as a place to shed the habits so many of us carry in modern society and to refrain from drinking and smoking, if only for the course of the Jungle Trip. If you feel that this will be impossible to do then there are many other excursions offered by other companies that would be better suited to your criteria. Our trips to the jungle will give a genuine insight to the Amazonian way of life and a greater understanding of the impact everyone of us has on the jungle.We hope that our journey is as much an internal voyage as an external one and in maintaining an authentic jungle experience we offer Ayahuasca sessions as part of the trip The Ayahuasca brew is regularly used by the Shamans in Puerto Nuevo and gives a profoundly introspective journey for those who are willing as we hope everyone who chooses to come on a Jungle Trip with us will be. See below for info on ayahuasca.

Ayahuasca has been used by shamans and healers in South America for hundreds, if not thousands of years to contact the spirit world, heal sickness of both the mind & body and to keep in balance with nature. The word Ayahuasca is from the Quechua language and translates as vine of the soul. Ayahuasca is traditionally prepared using the the harmala containing vine Banisteriopsis caapi and the DMT containing leaves of Psychotria viridis or Diplopterys Cabrerana. The method of preparation varies but generally the material is put into a water filled pot and boiled for a number of hours until only a small amount of liquid is left to drink. The harmaline/harmine in the Vine acts as an Mono Amine Oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) allowing the DMT in the leaves to become orally active. This is vital as DMT is broken down quickly by the body and without an MAOI, the brew would be ineffective. Click here http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6510 for more IMPORTANT information about Ayayhuasca & its Diet. Our guides for the jungle, medicinal baths and ayahuasca sessions will be : Prudencio, Don Antonio, Doña Carmen, Don Carlos, Rosa , Cesar and Adolfo.

THINGS TO BRING

We suggest you to bring with you a good mosquito repellent, (DEET based products are usually the best) anti-itch cream, long sleeve t-shirts and long trousers. Sunglasses, sun block, rubber boots, zip lock bags for cameras & so on, This will be very useful for the jungle expeditions. If you want to contribute to the village school, you can bring notebooks, pens, pencils, paper, painting material, rulers, erasers, white boards, maps & so on.

IS THIS FOR ME?

The life of the village is communally orientated and if you are someone who might see this as more of a disturbance then we'd suggest that you might prefer to take a different style of jungle tour such as the ones where you stay in a jungle lodge away from the interaction of the locals. (There are many options online that might be quite good .) As guests of the village we are their neighbours and it is not uncommon to be visited by them often first thing in the morning. It is also very common that the local radio-communication operators play loud music from 5-6 am as it is at that time that the people wake up in the village.

As a final note, our Jungle Trips are not for everybody. We have no aspirations to take a different group every week. We are going to organize 6 jungle journeys yearly, each group ranges from 4 people to a maximum of 7.

We prefer to focus on the qualities of a person as opposed to the quantity of the people. So if you consider yourself a positive and enthusiastic person who is open to experience a jungle journey of the mind, body and spirit, we welcome you and look forward to communicating with you in the future.


Here is an account of what we offered that a journalist wrote about for a tourism magazine called Ocean Drive:



East of the Andes Mountains in Peru, on the banks of the Ucayali River in the Amazon rainforest, I sat one night in a spell-like trance. The moon was bright and nearly full above the jungle’s limber palms and sturdy hardwoods. Its blue light filtered through the bamboo slats of an otherwise dark hut, banding the shaman in front of me as he sat cross-legged on a woven mat. The shaman rocked back and forth, chanting a mesmerizingly simple cadence.

I stared until I lost focus. Then my body wilted and lights flitted across my mind. I shut my eyes and let myself fall backwards. Suddenly the crooning stopped. I heard a convulsive heave (a new kind of chant? I thought), followed by a splash as liquid hit one of the plastic buckets laid out in front of each of us.

The shaman was puking.

I couldn’t sit up to see, though. I couldn’t even open my eyes. Frogs croaked and leaped in the mud outside, leaves rustled in the wind, but I was paralyzed. “How do you feel?” whispered Julio Nieves, my guide through all things jungle. The answer was that I felt transported. I just couldn’t say it.

Julio, an athletic 34-year-old from Lima, with a brush cut and an abrupt, loud laugh, had brought me here. He had partnered with two Indian tribes in the Peruvian Amazon to allow travelers such as myself to live among the natives, eat their food, fish with them, learn about the jungle’s plants from their expansive store of knowledge, and, if willing, experience an ayahuasca ceremony, the spiritual/medicinal ritual that involves drinking a powerful hallucinogen brewed from jungle plants

To get here we endured thunderous rainstorms, trekked through ankle-deep mud, hopped over brightly striped venomous snakes and ducked palm-sized spiders bristling with hair. We had walked with Indians toting shotguns through a jungle thick with danger, not least from our fellow man, so that I could sit in this dark hut and sip this bitter tea. And I did this not because I’m a fan of getting high or athletic vomiting.

Ayahuasca, also known as the “vine of the soul,” is no recreational drug. Its adherents believe it links man’s mind to the spirit realm. At least two Christian sects in Brazil drink the tea to get closer to God. Indian tribes throughout the Amazon take it as a rite of passage—a way to communicate with the world of plants and animals surrounding them—and as a strong medicine that can heal the soul itself.

THE REST: (Please read - its a beautiful well written account)
http://web.archive.org/web/20070210002024/http://www.jungletrips.co.uk/oceandrive.htm

[Wind]

Hancock's experiences seem to be really scary and yet at the same time really intriguing. I wonder that would he ever have written Fingerprints of the Gods without marijuana?

You would probably have to be very brave to willing to experience ayahuasca... It sounds like that it's almost like an test. Graham calls the "Mother Ayahuasca" a loving benevolent being, but yet during those altered states he has been open to attacks from "tricksters" or evil malevolent beings which seem to be living in that other dimension. It seems to me that ayahuasca acts like an portal which lets you to see and experience other dimension which are parallel to our own. If we could see all the other dimension and astral levels with our own eyes we would probably see many weird things.

At this level of consciousness we are almost like blindfolded. We see just a tiny bit of this so called physical "reality", but that's all. Some of us can just sense the energetic dimensions and influxes, but we cannot see or experience them. Yet we are very open to influences unknown to us. Some forces want the best for us and others not.

Exploring your own consciousness might be interesting, but it probably isn't suited for everyone.

[Youniverse]

I've never taken drugs in my life,
What about Coffee, Tea, Sugar, Tobacco, Alcohol or any Natural or Pharmaceutical Medication?
If the answer is affirmative you get a round of applause from me. :)

Peace

I'm guilty on the coffee, tea, and sugar substances :). Though I have given up alcohol! ha ha.

[Youniverse]

Hancock's experiences seem to be really scary and yet at the same time really intriguing. I wonder that would he ever have written Fingerprints of the Gods without marijuana?

You would probably have to be very brave to willing to experience ayahuasca... It sounds like that it's almost like an test. Graham calls the "Mother Ayahuasca" a loving benevolent being, but yet during those altered states he has been open to attacks from "tricksters" or evil malevolent beings which seem to be living in that other dimension. It seems to me that ayahuasca acts like an portal which lets you to see and experience other dimension which are parallel to our own. If we could see all the other dimension and astral levels with our own eyes we would probably see many weird things.

At this level of consciousness we are almost like blindfolded. We see just a tiny bit of this so called physical "reality", but that's all. Some of us can just sense the energetic dimensions and influxes, but we cannot see or experience them. Yet we are very open to influences unknown to us. Some forces want the best for us and others not.

Exploring your own consciousness might be interesting, but it probably isn't suited for everyone.

From the research I have done, it is not for the faint of heart. However, if you FEEL you are ready and at the same time have a strong sense of humility and openness, you will probably have a wondrous experience. IMO the amount of scariness in the experience depends on the level of fears you have already faced within yourself. If you've just begun facing those fears(or not at all), then you might be in for a rough ride. It sounds to me like those people that are most open to the experience and are able to 'let go' of old beliefs and fears and opinions rather quickly, tend to have a more fulfilling and life-changing(in a positive way) experience. It may be that these demons or "tricksters" are only projections from deep within our psyche that we have not faced. Just like the shadow side or "pain body" as Eckhart Tolle calls it, are some ugly, vicious monsters that once brought into the light, begin to lose their power. I believe in Graham Hancock's experience, the more he faced this trickster, the more it would weaken and eventually dissappear altogether. These things only have power when we leave them in the dark.

You need to go into these kinds of experiences with a sense of KNOWING that you are the creator of your reality. "You are the god you seek," is what I have heard over and over again, in the channelling sessions I attend once a month. This message is also made clear and simple in "Conversations With God," by Neale Donald Walsch, a trilogy I would highly recommend everyone read. Saying and knowing you are God comes with a big disclaimer, ha ha, because you also have to be aware of the human filter/ego at work in you that is also part of god and at the same time seperates you from god(another paradox). If you can say inside yourself that you are god and believe it, and at the same time bow down to that higher part of yourself that lives outside of duality, you will be just fine. My point with all this is to not be afraid or if you find you already are afraid, then to face those demons head-on, when you feel the time is right. If they devour you, they devour you, and then you move on as the undying and unborn entity that you always are. And this is what happens to so many folks that have these disturbing trips, they get through it and relaize they are okay and keep moving forward. The ones that get too freaked out(usually because they enter into it with a false sense of confidence where they're lying to themselves) simply run away to fight another day. They are not ready for that intensity yet, or haven't faced the fear in stages enough to lessen its power.

We all do these things in our everyday lives where we face all kinds of fears and belief systems. The difference is with DMT, LSD, pscillocybin, or other similar hallucinigens, is that we face those demons in a more visceral and yet sublime sort of way. Instead of taking it in stages, one can meet up with the 'monster' inside, in a very blunt sort of way. This is why, I would imagine, that if a very liberated type of individual were to take a heavy dose of ayahuasca or pure DMT, they probably would have a more positive and even a somewhat ho-hum, been there done that, kind of experience. Hope that helps!

[Youniverse]

I would add that this has in fact been the case in the past, where a master/guru took a heavy dose of LSD and then kind of said, oh ya that's nice, lol!

[Christine]

I've never taken drugs in my life,
What about Coffee, Tea, Sugar, Tobacco, Alcohol or any Natural or Pharmaceutical Medication?
If the answer is affirmative you get a round of applause from me. :)

Peace

One could by the above definition call anything a drug including lettuce. Everything we ingest has an effect on us. I personally do not define coffee, tea, sugar or tobacco, even alcohol in moderation as "drugs".

I do think Bill was clearly referring to hallucinogenic, mind altering substances. :)

[Youniverse]

I've never taken drugs in my life,
What about Coffee, Tea, Sugar, Tobacco, Alcohol or any Natural or Pharmaceutical Medication?
If the answer is affirmative you get a round of applause from me. :)

Peace

One could by the above definition call anything a drug including lettuce. Everything we ingest has an effect on us. I personally do not define coffee, tea, sugar or tobacco, even alcohol in moderation as "drugs".

I do think Bill was clearly referring to hallucinogenic, mind altering substances. :)

Yes and clearly some are more mind altering than others, ha ha. :)

[Bill Ryan]

I've never taken drugs in my life,
What about Coffee, Tea, Sugar, Tobacco, Alcohol or any Natural or Pharmaceutical Medication?

Coffee, every day. Tea, occasionally. Sugar, almost never. Tobacco, never in my life. Pharmaceutical Medication, not since I was a child. Alcohol, not since 1988 (I am allergic).


If the answer is affirmative you get a round of applause from me

How about the sound of one hand clapping? :)

[7eagle14]

every positive thing that psychotropics can do to you, you can do by yourself.

Fully agreed: this is the heart of it.

Speaking as someone who spent 2 decades drowning in a suicidal depression and was then relieved of that through ayahuasca, I respectfully contradict this assertion.
I've no contention with the idea of everyone being capable of anything. But the ethereal idea that we can all do anything that we want truly means nothing to someone who is locked into their own personal hell/addiction. This person knows they're trapped, they've been tricked into knowing it, but they know it nonetheless. If someone has no concept of what they are capable of (or capacity to understand it) then tools that enable them to learn what they're capable of are invaluable. Ayahuasca is one such medicinal tool. I acknowledge that, like any other medicine, it can be abused.

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

I think its hard for somebody who has never had it to say anything about it with any kind of certainty. Its all to easy to dismiss it without actually having felt its beneficial effects.

[Maunagarjana]

It seems to me that Graham is getting some benefits of ayahuasca use, despite the difficult nature of the experiences. And that is one of the curious things about psychedelics in general is that sometimes the more rough journeys can be the most instructive. But there are definitely limitations to this. I mean, someone can probably learn a lot about themselves and the world by getting lost in the woods, but that doesn't mean they should do that regularly. That is just one analogy. I'm sure there are better ones.

I'm actually quite pro-psychedelics in general, mostly because they have impacted my life in what I feel is a very positive way, but if you talk to me about them long enough, you'll quickly realize that I am extremely moderate in terms of the rate of my using them and am very cautious in the way that I use of them. I know what it's like when psychedelic experiences go off the rails, and it isn't pretty.

I have a very strong respect for these tools, and I do not abuse them. I've never done ayahuasca, mainly because I consider it for me to be too physically demanding. That, and because I wouldn't do it without a seasoned ayahuasquero present, and I have NO illusions that they are all benevolent and wise individuals. Also, as Graham's latest experience with it shows, all it takes is one misguided fool in a group to really put a damper on the proceedings. I have had some amazing experiences on my own combining psilocybe mushrooms with syrian rue, a combination which is analogous to ayahuasca (Psilocin is 4-HO-DMT and syrian rue contains MAOIs), but there are certainly differences as well. I do view with skepticism the zealous devotees of ayahuasca that I meet, even while I believe that for the right person at the right time, it can be a godsend.

I think such substances are there (as someone said upthread) to "kickstart" certain things within us on our personal journey in a way that can be very positive. But after that process is in full swing, it's probably best to set them aside and focus on other ways of working on ourselves. I really can't stress this enough.

[Youniverse]

It seems to me that Graham is getting some benefits of ayahuasca use, despite the difficult nature of the experiences. And that is one of the curious things about psychedelics in general is that sometimes the more rough journeys can be the most instructive. But there are definitely limitations to this. I mean, someone can probably learn a lot about themselves and the world by getting lost in the woods, but that doesn't mean they should do that regularly. That is just one analogy. I'm sure there are better ones.

I'm actually quite pro-psychedelics in general, mostly because they have impacted my life in what I feel is a very positive way, but if you talk to me about them long enough, you'll quickly realize that I am extremely moderate in terms of the rate of my using them and am very cautious in the way that I use of them. I know what it's like when psychedelic experiences go off the rails, and it isn't pretty.

I have a very strong respect for these tools, and I do not abuse them. I've never done ayahuasca, mainly because I consider it for me to be too physically demanding. That, and because I wouldn't do it without a seasoned ayahuasquero present, and I have NO illusions that they are all benevolent and wise individuals. Also, as Graham's latest experience with it shows, all it takes is one misguided fool in a group to really put a damper on the proceedings. I have had some amazing experiences on my own combining psilocybe mushrooms with syrian rue, a combination which is analogous to ayahuasca (Psilocin is 4-HO-DMT and syrian rue contains MAOIs), but there are certainly differences as well. I do view with skepticism the zealous devotees of ayahuasca that I meet, even while I believe that for the right person at the right time, it can be a godsend.

I think such substances are there (as someone said upthread) to "kickstart" certain things within us on our personal journey in a way that can be very positive. But after that process is in full swing, it's probably best to set them aside and focus on other ways of working on ourselves. I really can't stress this enough.

I think what you're saying is quite similar to what Rick Strassman said in "DMT - The Spirit Molecule," Dr. Gabor Mate in his documentary "Jungle Prescription," and many others that understand and practice responsible use of entheogens. It is not for recreational use. It is a tool as you said. And 7eagle14 I'm glad you shared your story because I forgot to add that point earlier. I've never used psychedelics, but I've done a bit of research on them. I have heard and read stories of people with serious drug addiction like heroine that were freed from that addiction by ayahuasca. It is also supposed to be quite effective in treating alcoholism and mental disorders such as OCD that I mentioned earlier. Some possible reasons for the effectiveness of psychedelics in treating these illnesses is that it helps people attain closure with tramas of their past and also reawakens them to a much higher love and respect for themselves and others. They gain a fresh new perspective that encompasses more of the big picture and no longer have the will to engage in any self-destructive behaviour.

I'm not trying to endorse the use of psychedelics here. I'm only passing on what I've heard and read in a balanced approach. I am not for or against their use. I stand by my earlier statement that I do not need to use psychedelics for any sort of growth. However, I would leave open a small window of possibility for trying a psychedelic in the future given the right parameters, situation, people involved, motivation, etc. In summary, I can't say I would never use them under any circumstances but the chances that I would are pretty low. I do respect responsible users of substances like DMT and the reported benefits of its use. Like people that have had NDEs, some folks that have gone on a DMT trip are speechless afterwards but know without any doubt that they had avery real and very beneficial experience. How can anyone argue with that?

[sheddie]

I have been a serious student of shamanism with a very accomplished teacher for about ten years now. It is my opinion that if you are using psychotropics, you can have great mystical experiences, but you are not in control. You are wide open to influence and infiltration. You are just along for the ride.

One of the most under-taught lessons in shamanic training is self protection. My teacher requires a foundation in self protection which involves not only energetic technique, but psychological clearing and grounding, which can take years and great effort for some. Psychotropics are the opposite of grounding, self control, and self protection.

I agree, the need for protection and being fully grounded is paramount when practicing shamanism. Seems to me Graham Hancock's experience is a good wake up call for people thinking it is all 'love and light'.

I have been practicing shamanism for over 6 years now, it takes a great deal of practice to journey well, even more to interpret your journeys ... it is possible to achieve great insights through journeying. You do need the support and help of your teachers though, and we are taught to never journey to other realities without your guiding spirts, it is after all their world and we need to be protected at all times.

I too have been very lucky to train with two wonderful teachers. Shamanic practices have changed my life ....

I can see for some people the need to take Ayahuasca to help them overcome blocks or to open themselves up to other world realities, as with everything moderation and taking responsibility for yourself is the key, as is finding the right person to help you experience Ayahuasa.

Someone close to me is taking Ayahuasa/DMT at the moment, I think it is in order to fast track their 'enlightenment', that is my opinion only, I could be wrong of course.:p It concerns me as they have mental health issues brought on by drug abuse in the past ..... all your posts have been a great help, thank you for giving some balanced opinions everyone, it's much appreciated.

From what I understand taking Ayahuasca, I presume it is actually DMT in the UK? Anyone know if this is the case, that when they talk about taking Ayahuasca they actually mean DMT. I have heard of people going to Ayahuasca parties, one person actually took their 15 daughter as they felt it would be a good experience for her ..... unbelievable. :eek:

Blufire, my mum is in late stage Alzheimer's, she's had it for 10 years, and dad has just been diagnosed with moderate Alzheimer's so I feel your pain, it really is a slow death, just awful to see the pain and confusion. I share your worries about our future health... I am a lot nearer to 80 than you and am working hard to open my mind and keep healthy. Lets hope Bruce Lipton is correct and that genetic inheritance isn't absolutely a given.

much love

[Youniverse]

I love Bruce Lipton sheddie! I don't know how many of you are familiar with Bashar chanelled through Daryl Anka? I just wanted to throw something he said regarding ayahuasca out here. Of course he could be wrong, though it seems to me he is very wise in many other ways. He said that ayahuasca doesn't actually contain DMT. He said it is a mixture of other plants or chemicals. Has anyone ever heard that before? Just wondering.

[Maunagarjana]

I've never used psychedelics, but I've done a bit of research on them. I have heard and read stories of people with serious drug addiction like heroine that were freed from that addiction by ayahuasca. It is also supposed to be quite effective in treating alcoholism and mental disorders such as OCD that I mentioned earlier. Some possible reasons for the effectiveness of psychedelics in treating these illnesses is that it helps people attain closure with tramas of their past and also reawakens them to a much higher love and respect for themselves and others. They gain a fresh new perspective that encompasses more of the big picture and no longer have the will to engage in any self-destructive behaviour.

For someone who hasn't taken psychedelics, you seem very well informed. I agree with all of what you've written in this thread.

[Maunagarjana]

I have been a serious student of shamanism with a very accomplished teacher for about ten years now. It is my opinion that if you are using psychotropics, you can have great mystical experiences, but you are not in control. You are wide open to influence and infiltration. You are just along for the ride.

One of the most under-taught lessons in shamanic training is self protection. My teacher requires a foundation in self protection which involves not only energetic technique, but psychological clearing and grounding, which can take years and great effort for some. Psychotropics are the opposite of grounding, self control, and self protection.

So, have you taken them? Honestly, I'm really puzzled when people tell me they are practicing Shamanism but aren't being schooled by the plant teachers. Every Shamanic culture I've ever looked at anywhere around the world have utilized drug plants for various purposes, even if it's just something like datura or tobacco.

[Maunagarjana]

I love Bruce Lipton sheddie! I don't know how many of you are familiar with Bashar chanelled through Daryl Anka? I just wanted to throw something he said regarding ayahuasca out here. Of course he could be wrong, though it seems to me he is very wise in many other ways. He said that ayahuasca doesn't actually contain DMT. He said it is a mixture of other plants or chemicals. Has anyone ever heard that before? Just wondering.

I'm not familiar with the quote from Bashar, but ayahuasca definitely contains DMT. Yage (the vine Banisteriopsis Caapi) and Chacruna (the leafy plant Psychotria Viridis) are the two main ingredients. Yage contains MAOIs (Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors, like harmine, harmaline and tetra-hydra-harmine) and Chacruna contains DMT. Sometimes other plants are used that contain other things (these are referred to as admixtures) and every ayahuasquero has their own personal style of brew. But DMT is not normally orally active so that's why you need the MAOIs, because it inhibits Monoamine Oxidase in your stomach, which allows DMT to be orally active. It's an amazing feat of chemistry that the Amazonian natives had figured out (though they say plants are the ones that told them how to do it.) The Yage vine is considered to be the most important plant of the two though (it is also known as Ayahuasca on its own), and the Chacruna is said to more just provide color to the visions.

[Youniverse]

I love Bruce Lipton sheddie! I don't know how many of you are familiar with Bashar chanelled through Daryl Anka? I just wanted to throw something he said regarding ayahuasca out here. Of course he could be wrong, though it seems to me he is very wise in many other ways. He said that ayahuasca doesn't actually contain DMT. He said it is a mixture of other plants or chemicals. Has anyone ever heard that before? Just wondering.

I'm not familiar with the quote from Bashar, but ayahuasca definitely contains DMT. Yage (the vine Banisteriopsis Caapi) and Chacruna (the leafy plant Psychotria Viridis) are the two main ingredients. Yage contains MAOIs (Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors, like harmine, harmaline and tetra-hydra-harmine) and Chacruna contains DMT. Sometimes other plants are used that contain other things (these are referred to as admixtures) and every ayahuasquero has their own personal style of brew. But DMT is not normally orally active so that's why you need the MAOIs, because it inhibits Monoamine Oxidase in your stomach, which allows DMT to be orally active. It's an amazing feat of chemistry that the Amazonian natives had figured out (though they say plants are the ones that told them how to do it.) The Yage vine is considered to be the most important plant of the two though (it is also known as Ayahuasca on its own), and the Chacruna is said to more just provide color to the visions.

Yes it is unbelievable how they were able to come up with that! Hmmm, I wonder why Bashar would say that? Well I'd always heard that ayahuasca contains DMT before that and since so I'll take your word for it as well :).

[Maunagarjana]

I love Bruce Lipton sheddie! I don't know how many of you are familiar with Bashar chanelled through Daryl Anka? I just wanted to throw something he said regarding ayahuasca out here. Of course he could be wrong, though it seems to me he is very wise in many other ways. He said that ayahuasca doesn't actually contain DMT. He said it is a mixture of other plants or chemicals. Has anyone ever heard that before? Just wondering.

I'm not familiar with the quote from Bashar, but ayahuasca definitely contains DMT. Yage (the vine Banisteriopsis Caapi) and Chacruna (the leafy plant Psychotria Viridis) are the two main ingredients. Yage contains MAOIs (Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors, like harmine, harmaline and tetra-hydra-harmine) and Chacruna contains DMT. Sometimes other plants are used that contain other things (these are referred to as admixtures) and every ayahuasquero has their own personal style of brew. But DMT is not normally orally active so that's why you need the MAOIs, because it inhibits Monoamine Oxidase in your stomach, which allows DMT to be orally active. It's an amazing feat of chemistry that the Amazonian natives had figured out (though they say plants are the ones that told them how to do it.) The Yage vine is considered to be the most important plant of the two though (it is also known as Ayahuasca on its own), and the Chacruna is said to more just provide color to the visions.

Yes it is unbelievable how they were able to come up with that! Hmmm, I wonder why Bashar would say that? Well I'd always heard that ayahuasca contains DMT before that and since so I'll take your word for it as well :).

He probably said it because the Yage vine is known as Ayahuasca on it's own. So someone may be given Ayahuasca and it doesn't contain DMT. But most likely, if someone drinks Ayahuasca it's not just the Yage vine, it also has Chacruna and other things. I know, it's confusing that it's known by the name Ayahuasca with and without other plants.

[blufire]

He probably said it because the Yage vine is known as Ayahuasca on it's own. So someone may be given Ayahuasca and it doesn't contain DMT. But most likely, if someone drinks Ayahuasca it's not just the Yage vine, it also has Chacruna and other things. I know, it's confusing that it's known by the name Ayahuasca with and without other plants

And the pure fact that Ayahuasca is so confusing, with a tremendous amount of just flat out wrong information (of which is also in this thread) one should be incredibly careful in using such a powerful mind altering substance.

It always amazes me that this subject comes up in a forum where thousands of members and guests come to read on a daily basis . . . . . therefore those of us who post on subjects like ingesting ayahuasca become responsible for those who act on the information we express.

Please be mindful of those you may influence.

[Youniverse]

I love Bruce Lipton sheddie! I don't know how many of you are familiar with Bashar chanelled through Daryl Anka? I just wanted to throw something he said regarding ayahuasca out here. Of course he could be wrong, though it seems to me he is very wise in many other ways. He said that ayahuasca doesn't actually contain DMT. He said it is a mixture of other plants or chemicals. Has anyone ever heard that before? Just wondering.

I'm not familiar with the quote from Bashar, but ayahuasca definitely contains DMT. Yage (the vine Banisteriopsis Caapi) and Chacruna (the leafy plant Psychotria Viridis) are the two main ingredients. Yage contains MAOIs (Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors, like harmine, harmaline and tetra-hydra-harmine) and Chacruna contains DMT. Sometimes other plants are used that contain other things (these are referred to as admixtures) and every ayahuasquero has their own personal style of brew. But DMT is not normally orally active so that's why you need the MAOIs, because it inhibits Monoamine Oxidase in your stomach, which allows DMT to be orally active. It's an amazing feat of chemistry that the Amazonian natives had figured out (though they say plants are the ones that told them how to do it.) The Yage vine is considered to be the most important plant of the two though (it is also known as Ayahuasca on its own), and the Chacruna is said to more just provide color to the visions.

Yes it is unbelievable how they were able to come up with that! Hmmm, I wonder why Bashar would say that? Well I'd always heard that ayahuasca contains DMT before that and since so I'll take your word for it as well :).

He probably said it because the Yage vine is known as Ayahuasca on it's own. So someone may be given Ayahuasca and it doesn't contain DMT. But most likely, if someone drinks Ayahuasca it's not just the Yage vine, it also has Chacruna and other things. I know, it's confusing that it's known by the name Ayahuasca with and without other plants.

Oh ok thanks, that makes sense! :)

[Youniverse]

He probably said it because the Yage vine is known as Ayahuasca on it's own. So someone may be given Ayahuasca and it doesn't contain DMT. But most likely, if someone drinks Ayahuasca it's not just the Yage vine, it also has Chacruna and other things. I know, it's confusing that it's known by the name Ayahuasca with and without other plants

And the pure fact that Ayahuasca is so confusing, with a tremendous amount of just flat out wrong information (of which is also in this thread) one should be incredibly careful in using such a powerful mind altering substance.

It always amazes me that this subject comes up in a forum where thousands of members and guests come to read on a daily basis . . . . . therefore those of us who post on subjects like ingesting ayahuasca become responsible for those who act on the information we express.

Please be mindful of those you may influence.

Ya I couldn't agree more. From my perspective I am interested in having an open and frank conversation about entheogens. I am definitely not here to encourage anyone to use these substances. I'm just having a sincere discussion. And I want to emphasize here, what I said earlier, that I am not for or against entheogen use. I strongly believe, however, that the multitude of testimonies provide ample evidence that they are not what popular culture makes them out to be and actually have some very real and powerful potential applications in spiritual development and healing or medicine.

[Maunagarjana]

He probably said it because the Yage vine is known as Ayahuasca on it's own. So someone may be given Ayahuasca and it doesn't contain DMT. But most likely, if someone drinks Ayahuasca it's not just the Yage vine, it also has Chacruna and other things. I know, it's confusing that it's known by the name Ayahuasca with and without other plants

And the pure fact that Ayahuasca is so confusing, with a tremendous amount of just flat out wrong information (of which is also in this thread) one should be incredibly careful in using such a powerful mind altering substance.

It always amazes me that this subject comes up in a forum where thousands of members and guests come to read on a daily basis . . . . . therefore those of us who post on subjects like ingesting ayahuasca become responsible for those who act on the information we express.

Please be mindful of those you may influence.

Those reading this information should be mindful that they are solely responsible for what they put or do not put inside their own body of their own free will. I only pass along information that is freely available to anyone with a search engine. This information is incredibly easy to find and can be found at times even in the articles of mainstream magazines and newspapers. I am very careful never to explicitly advocate the taking or not taking of any drug. If anyone perceives such advocacy in relation to anything I write on such a subject, they are not reading very carefully. This is a very important part of my personal code of ethics and something to which I have devoted a great deal of thought. There is no harm in being informed. What one does with the information is entirely up to the individual.

[northstar]

Thank you Corncrake for posting "Graham Hancock's latest experiences with ayahuasca".

I have been practicing shamanic journeying for more than a decade and I have been blessed to be able to work with excellent shamanic teachers.

I find it interesting that this discussion has been very much about entheogens and aya, when my interpretation of Hancock's post was that it was actually all about Hancock's shock and surprise at encountering transdimensional evil, and how that evil manifests through humans.


Hancock describes how their group of seekers was physically and astrally attacked by one of the members of the group. Hancock describes the events, and he appears to be positively shocked by this realization.

One of the many good quotes from Hancock's post is: “I tried very hard to rationalize what was happening,” he said. “I tried to convince myself that what I was experiencing was just my own shadow side taking illusory form, that this was something I was projecting, but in the end I became certain it was a real force, something utterly alien and deeply, deeply evil and completely external to myself. I tried every technique I know to keep it at bay but nothing worked.”

As a shamanic practioner I have dealt with the dark side for decades so what he describes is not shocking to me at all.

I think that the more spiritual people wake up to the realization that everything is not all "love and light" and good people need to be intentional about doing good and resisting evil, the better off we will be.

[Youniverse]

Yes of course dark forces exist. Would you not agree, however, that once you reach a certain level of vibration good and evil no longer exist? Also, when talking to my good friend sirdipswitch on the OBE thread, he stresses the validity of each of us being eternal, immortal and all powerful beings. In a sense, we are God and should be mindful of that truth when delving into the various planes of existence. So if you or I run into a malevolent entity, should we not order it to go away if we don't desire an interaction? Should we not operate with the swagger and confidence that we are an individuated expression of All That Is and we cannot be pushed around by anything or anyone? I know this is all easier said than done and I'm not being flippant or facetious. It of course has to be genuine confidence, not false confidence.

[northstar]

Yes of course dark forces exist. Would you not agree, however, that once you reach a certain level of vibration good and evil no longer exist? Also, when talking to my good friend sirdipswitch on the OBE thread, he stresses the validity of each of us being eternal, immortal and all powerful beings. In a sense, we are God and should be mindful of that truth when delving into the various planes of existence. So if you or I run into a malevolent entity, should we not order it to go away if we don't desire an interaction? Should we not operate with the swagger and confidence that we are an individuated expression of All That Is and we cannot be pushed around by anything or anyone? I know this is all easier said than done and I'm not being flippant or facetious. It of course has to be genuine confidence, not false confidence.

Thanks Youniverse for your reply. I appreciate your comments. I have heard this type of thing many times, always from good and well meaning folks who for whatever reason do not want to, or cannot bring themselves to grapple with evil. I am not saying this about you personally, I am just speaking in general about what I have experienced.

I actually agree with much of what you said BUT as a clairvoyant and as a person who has done battle up close and personal with evil all I can say is if people choose to live in the "love and light" world, and ignore the presence of evil either within or around them, all I can do is say "God bless them."

I do not fault those who choose to ignore or deny evil. I simply point out that Hancock's post was all about this topic.

If you read Hancock's post you see that he actually addresses what you said. He and his group members tried all the standard responses to the presence of dark entities- and they didn't work!! Many well meaning folks have dabbled in various spiritual practices and perhaps have encountered and easily vanquished low level dark energies. I have done this myself many time. It is easy.

In this case the Hancock and his group members encountered a powerful dark force (let's just call it a demon for now, hopefully that terminology won't get anyone riled up. ;) ) that was working through one of the group members. The demonic presence beat the crap out of the unsuspecting group members, who were all no doubt in an open and heart centered state (you know, the "everything is love and light" vibe)

Hancock makes it very clear at the end of the post that this happened to alert them all to the presence of powerful evil.

You see, unless good people are willing to admit evil exists both in their own shadow and externally, they will be utterly unwilling to do anything about the suffering that evil causes.

[Referee]

Here he gives an interesting Ted x talk on the subject.

-b6-0yW7Iaw

[northstar]

Thank you Referee for posting this. This is a fascinating talk for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that this particular talk and one by Rupert Sheldrake were censored and removed from the TedX website due to very vocal objections from certain materialist scientists. There is a long discussion of this censoring process on the TedX blog. I hope I am allowed to post the link here. bit.ly/10OkCKB (this links to the TedX blog - there are some very interesting comments protesting the fact that Hancock and Sheldrake were censored by TedX)

With regards to the video itself, it is excellent.

I have transcribed a few short phrases in which Hancock speaks of human freedom. IMO these comments are extremely ironic considering the fact that his talk was quickly censored. They start at 17:15

""What we're here to undertake on earth while immersed in matter is fundamentally a spiritual journey aimed at the growth and perfection of the soul, a journey that may go back to the very origins of what made us human in the first place.
And I stand here invoking the hard won right of freedom of speech to call for and demand another right to be recognized, and that is the right of adult sovereignty over consciousness.
There's a war on consciousness in our society and if we as adults are not allowed to make sovereign decisions about what to experience with our own consciousness while doing no harm to others including the decision to use responsibly ancient and sacred visionary plants then we cannot claim to be free in any way..." ~ Graham Hancock, from censored TedX talk

[AlaBil]

Thank you Referee for posting this. This is a fascinating talk for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that this particular talk and one by Rupert Sheldrake were censored and removed from the TedX website due to very vocal objections from certain materialist scientists. There is a long discussion of this censoring process on the TedX blog. I hope I am allowed to post the link here. bit.ly/10OkCKB (this links to the TedX blog - there are some very interesting comments protesting the fact that Hancock and Sheldrake were censored by TedX)

I too thank you Referee for the posting. I am particularly interested in videos like this that get banned or removed. Thanks to you also northstar for the TedX blog reference where the Rupert Sheldrake video can be seen.

[write4change]

The most important thing Hancock brings to the discussion is calling a spade a spade. This is a war on consciousness and on individual sovereignty. There is no damage to the human body from DMT that is documented to this day. The body produces it but no one knows exactly how or why. People on this thread should also read the thread on the secret life of plants. They are definitely connected. The most telephathic organizms on the planet may be plants and the indication of that has been around since 1966. I have alsways found the fact that we do not contemplate that appalling.

[northstar]

I am not sure if I am allowed to post this here, but I felt like it added to the discussion. There is a petition on change.org to stop the censoring of Graham Hancock's talk. I signed because I was troubled that Hancock's ideas were wrongly suppressed by TedX. (The petition does not mention that Rupert Sheldrake's talk was also censored.)

http://www.change.org/petitions/ted-stop-the-censoring-of-the-graham-hancock-tedx-talks-video#share

[Youniverse]

Yes of course dark forces exist. Would you not agree, however, that once you reach a certain level of vibration good and evil no longer exist? Also, when talking to my good friend sirdipswitch on the OBE thread, he stresses the validity of each of us being eternal, immortal and all powerful beings. In a sense, we are God and should be mindful of that truth when delving into the various planes of existence. So if you or I run into a malevolent entity, should we not order it to go away if we don't desire an interaction? Should we not operate with the swagger and confidence that we are an individuated expression of All That Is and we cannot be pushed around by anything or anyone? I know this is all easier said than done and I'm not being flippant or facetious. It of course has to be genuine confidence, not false confidence.

Thanks Youniverse for your reply. I appreciate your comments. I have heard this type of thing many times, always from good and well meaning folks who for whatever reason do not want to, or cannot bring themselves to grapple with evil. I am not saying this about you personally, I am just speaking in general about what I have experienced.

I actually agree with much of what you said BUT as a clairvoyant and as a person who has done battle up close and personal with evil all I can say is if people choose to live in the "love and light" world, and ignore the presence of evil either within or around them, all I can do is say "God bless them."

I do not fault those who choose to ignore or deny evil. I simply point out that Hancock's post was all about this topic.

If you read Hancock's post you see that he actually addresses what you said. He and his group members tried all the standard responses to the presence of dark entities- and they didn't work!! Many well meaning folks have dabbled in various spiritual practices and perhaps have encountered and easily vanquished low level dark energies. I have done this myself many time. It is easy.

In this case the Hancock and his group members encountered a powerful dark force (let's just call it a demon for now, hopefully that terminology won't get anyone riled up. ;) ) that was working through one of the group members. The demonic presence beat the crap out of the unsuspecting group members, who were all no doubt in an open and heart centered state (you know, the "everything is love and light" vibe)

Hancock makes it very clear at the end of the post that this happened to alert them all to the presence of powerful evil.

You see, unless good people are willing to admit evil exists both in their own shadow and externally, they will be utterly unwilling to do anything about the suffering that evil causes.

Thanks for your response! Oh I know evil exists, been battling it my whole life. Perhaps you misunderstood something I said. I said the duality of good and evil cease to exist once you reach a high enough plane of existence, closer to Source. There is no doubt about the existence of evil at the lower vibrational dimensions and what we call our universe.

I agree with much of what you are saying as well. I have not done any of the metaphysical kind of battle you speak of so I would have to defer to your words of experience. I think what you are saying is that Hancock and his friends just didn't prepare themselves for the possibility of meeting some malevolent entity. So they didn't know what to do and got their butts kicked. I wonder though, what's the worst that can happen in a case like that? So they get their butt kicked in some etheral realm and come back to their body and carry on with life? There was a kid in Rick Strassman's DMT - The Spirit Molecule that acted all cocky ahead of time and ended up being sodomized and eaten alive by a crocodile simultaneously in his DMT induced state. When the DMT wore off he was pretty shook up, opted out of the experiment, and went on with his life. When checked on a while later he seemed to be doing fine. I don't know, I'm asking those of you that have experienced more of that kind of thing. What's the worst that can happen? I'm a cautious kind of person so I wouldn't be one to jump into any experience without measuring the risks if I could help it.

When Christ approached demons, did they not shudder? So if one were deeply connected to that Christ consciousness or Buddha consciousness if you wish, would they not be much more formidable in confronting a demon?

[Youniverse]

The most important thing Hancock brings to the discussion is calling a spade a spade. This is a war on consciousness and on individual sovereignty. There is no damage to the human body from DMT that is documented to this day. The body produces it but no one knows exactly how or why. People on this thread should also read the thread on the secret life of plants. They are definitely connected. The most telephathic organizms on the planet may be plants and the indication of that has been around since 1966. I have alsways found the fact that we do not contemplate that appalling.

Just wondering if you read DMT - The Spirit Molecule? I found that book fascinating, even as a person that has never used any entheogens. He actually does discuss in that book how DMT is made in the body. The why part is a little more mysterious however. Strassman makes the hypothesis that endogenous DMT mediates the transition from the physical to spiritual planes. Not surprisingly he doesn't find concrete evidence to support his hypothesis. Strassman's findings do, however, seem to corroborate with your statement about DMT not damaging the body. Dr. Gabor Mate also came to the same conclusion when he went to Spain to check the most extensive records in the world on ayahuasca use.

[Youniverse]

I am not sure if I am allowed to post this here, but I felt like it added to the discussion. There is a petition on change.org to stop the censoring of Graham Hancock's talk. I signed because I was troubled that Hancock's ideas were wrongly suppressed by TedX. (The petition does not mention that Rupert Sheldrake's talk was also censored.)

http://www.change.org/petitions/ted-stop-the-censoring-of-the-graham-hancock-tedx-talks-video#share

I signed the petition.

[northstar]

Thanks for your response! Oh I know evil exists, been battling it my whole life. Perhaps you misunderstood something I said. I said the duality of good and evil cease to exist once you reach a high enough plane of existence, closer to Source. There is no doubt about the existence of evil at the lower vibrational dimensions and what we call our universe.

I agree with much of what you are saying as well. I have not done any of the metaphysical kind of battle you speak of so I would have to defer to your words of experience. I think what you are saying is that Hancock and his friends just didn't prepare themselves for the possibility of meeting some malevolent entity. So they didn't know what to do and got their butts kicked. I wonder though, what's the worst that can happen in a case like that? So they get their butt kicked in some etheral realm and come back to their body and carry on with life? There was a kid in Rick Strassman's DMT - The Spirit Molecule that acted all cocky ahead of time and ended up being sodomized and eaten alive by a crocodile simultaneously in his DMT induced state. When the DMT wore off he was pretty shook up, opted out of the experiment, and went on with his life. When checked on a while later he seemed to be doing fine. I don't know, I'm asking those of you that have experienced more of that kind of thing. What's the worst that can happen? I'm a cautious kind of person so I wouldn't be one to jump into any experience without measuring the risks if I could help it.

When Christ approached demons, did they not shudder? So if one were deeply connected to that Christ consciousness or Buddha consciousness if you wish, would they not be much more formidable in confronting a demon?

Thanks for clarifying what you meant Youniverse. I have encountered many comments such as "there is no such thing as evil" from New Agers over the years and I jumped to conclusions about what you were saying.

I am also aware that when we get to very high vibratory state we will be above and beyond this dual world and constructions like "good and evil" won't apply any more.

BUT as long as I inhabit a 3D body I will be grappling with duality, and the rich cornucopia of playthings that this dual 3D reality presents to me.

With regards to aligning with the Christ consciousness or Buddha consciousness, you are quite correct. However, my teachers made it very clear to me that unlike New Agers who call upon a variety of God energies for various reason, practitioners must ultimately stand in their own sovereignty and wield that power themselves. This is a very hard concept/lesson/test for many souls to deal with. The challenge of this is that in order to do so, each person must first make the terrifying heroes journey within and meet and vanquish their own shadow. This journey is not for everyone because it will shatter everything you think you knew about yourself. On a positive note all who do so and make it back return with a priceless gift.

You bring up some good examples. I like the story about the kid and the crocodile. My answer to that is - it depends. Every single time we are defeated / beat up / vanquished we experience soul loss (in shamanic terms) or energy loss (in magical terms) or chi loss ( in energy medicine terminology). Those battles always take a piece out of us. My personal experience of doing this work is that folks who enter into this mentally or spiritually or emotionally unprepared can pay a heavy price.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Somewhat related, here is an article with one Buddhist's perspective on ingesting drugs as a means to attain enlightenment.

http://www.tricycle.com/cushion/enlightenment-pill

[wolfgaze]

I don't think this is true. You can take it legally without being a church member I think. There are Aya churches but its best to keep away. Take it with the Shipibo or some other amazon peoples who have no religion.[COLOR="red"]


Well, South-American nations protect indigenous cultures to some extent, so yes, you can have Ayahuasca during indigenous rituals, just like many other indigenous potent hallucinogenics drugs.

However, as an example, if you start to produce it at home, or use it as a recreational drug, at least here in Brazil it is considered a crime.

The most disseminated Ayahuasca centered religion in South-America is Santo Daime (http://www.santodaime.org/indexy.htm). This is where the brainwashing happens; They drink it, then spend 12 hours or more dancing and singing repetitive Christian hymns; As a religion, it´s got no solidity at all. It´s a poorly balanced mix of indigenous rites and Christianity, led by unenlightened people. Everyone who became affiliated with this religion, become "zombified" after a while.

As for taking it with a Shaman, well, I have no experience with it. Honestly, I´ve never met a genuine indigenous Shaman. I´ve met many charlatans, though.

Raf.

I saw the bolded featured in a documentary type program about hallucinogenic drugs on the National Geographic Channel. The way you describe it is very much how it was depicted on the program. Seemed very 'cult-like' and there were young children participated in the rituals/practices if I recall correctly.