Who will lead the revolution, the civil disobedience?

[realitycorrodes]

Humans require leadership.

There are many things that are obviously corrupt and have been for some time on this planet.

Many know about it, but need to be organized in order to bring about a change.

Many like to do the education tours about what is going on

and some of those like to suggest ways that things can be changed

- but very few want to stand up and be the leader of that change?

It is hard to educate us into what the problems are and how we can change them.

But it is even harder to sacrifice oneself to the leadership and hence the organization of others who understand what needs to be done.

Why do we not have anyone standing up saying I will lead people out of this?

e.g. if civil disobedience is the answer, where is the person who will organize and co-ordinate the people who will participate in a mass civil disobedience?

Something to think about - don't we think?

[realitycorrodes]

And where will the tools to communicate such a mass revolution come from?

All the major communication tools seem to be owned by the status quo!

And if it comes to it, were will the defense of those (peacefully?) revolting come from?

All the weapons to defend oneself seemed to be owned by the status quo!

And the status quo has clearly demonstrated it will kill innocent people who get in the way of its goals.

Anyone else understand what I am saying?

[realitycorrodes]

It is easy to point to Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi.

What if they were both manufactured revolutionary icons of the status quo?

Why would the status quo like to create manufactured revolutionary icons?

I don't know the whole story....

Manufactured revolutionary icons gives us the impression that there is still an option to stand up and revolt...

when in fact there might never have been an option to revolt - at least without being instantly killed and never heard of again - the only revolt possible is the one that is stamped with the approval of the status quo.

If that is so what could this mean to us?

[realitycorrodes]

Where is John Connor when we need him!

or is it John Carter we are looking for?

or the big J.C. (Jesus Christ) in its mythical self?

Is waiting to be saved just an illusion - albeit a persistent one?

[Freed Fox]

These things have been on my mind for awhile now too, friend. Sometimes it seems that the plagues upon our kind are too deep-seated and widespread to find a collective path forward.

For my part, I want to make sure that I have sustained clarity within myself above all. That way, I can make certain that if ever I come to lead others, I will lead them out of the darkened cave and not further into it (or off an unseen cliff to an untimely end).

[realitycorrodes]

I feel humbled by your good intentions Freed Fox - may they inspire others!

[realitycorrodes]

I suspect there is no real freedom within society or large groups.

A small freedom may be won by somehow being able to unhitch oneself from the society.

Disappearing from that society - out of reach.

Living 100% of the land by one's own effort - which is difficult - lets face it - hence people choose the easier option of staying in the society they don't like.

[vje2]

Hi realitycorrodes,

Thank you for your thoughts!

To me, the way I see it is that there is no need for leadership, as we need to stop behaving like a herd of sheeps (us humans) been lead by the shepperd (leader).
That is what got us into trouble the first time.
I believe the best way is to start seeking freedom from within, by non-compliance, like David Icke says.

I strongly believe in the "100th effect monkey" in which there are no monkey leader/s at all, but a learned behaviour that comes naturally when enough monkeys keep on doing the same thing.
By the way I am not saying that humans are monkeys, I am only using the analogy for you to understand my point.
I hope it makes sense

[christian]

Who organizes schools of fish or flocks of birds? — All the members within the group naturally use their higher senses to act in coherence, harmony, and entrainment.

The old paradigm model of leadership is based on crude "order and obedience." First humans have to wake up to the fact that each one is a powerful being with abundant potential. Then the free will decision must be made to use that power to also work together with others. Then everything falls into place naturally.

There will always be those, who will embody particular talents more pronouncedly. Everybody will move into the right position according to his or her special talents, if the aforementioned steps are taken.

I don't want to participate in a new paradigm that merely directs sheep. I want to see a genuinely self-empowered humanity, I want everybody to consciously choose the path to enlightenment. What I can do to promote that is living it as whole-heartedly as I can, to let it shine, and to inspire others to do the same.

[Lifebringer]

There is a global resistance and boycott of any of the big boys that do harm to humanity. WE don't buy their products nor talk or set foot on sites, stores, or other businesses that support them. Hit them in their pocket, and like the greedy people they are, they hear a bell.

Just watched the "devils double" the Uday Hussein story by the guy he "took" as his double/bullet cushion, and how Uday's life turned the tied in War in Iraq.
He says: "The day of the Sheik are over!"

He was so wrong. The real Sheik/Teacher/Creator of Justice is just beginning.
It was horrible the way he snatched school aged girls, forced them to snort cocaine, and raped them and disposed of them in the desert across Iraq. This double and his father, stood up to true, if you believe in it, evil.

Many thanks to the Creator for restoring our hearts and minds for unconditional LOVE, true Peace and Freedom of choice.

[Fred Steeves]

Humans require leadership.


Not this human. :no:

[Conchis]

There is a global resistance and boycott of any of the big boys that do harm to humanity. WE don't buy their products nor talk or set foot on sites, stores, or other businesses that support them. Hit them in their pocket, and like the greedy people they are, they hear a bell.

Connected to this idea, we really do need to get it together and demand that we be told on labeling, what products contain GMO foods. Labeling needs to inform us what antibiotics, growth hormones and the like were fed to the meat products we are offered. If we don't get the legislatures to require these simple labeling notices, we won't know to stay away from some things and there is a huge movement to keep this information secret. Monsanto has lots of money to throw at politicians, but we have more votes if the politicians see that it's the votes that count, but we have to get serious about it.

[panopticon]

There is a global resistance and boycott of any of the big boys that do harm to humanity. WE don't buy their products nor talk or set foot on sites, stores, or other businesses that support them. Hit them in their pocket, and like the greedy people they are, they hear a bell.

Connected to this idea, we really do need to get it together and demand that we be told on labeling, what products contain GMO foods. Labeling needs to inform us what antibiotics, growth hormones and the like were fed to the meat products we are offered. If we don't get the legislatures to require these simple labeling notices, we won't know to stay away from some things and there is a huge movement to keep this information secret. Monsanto has lots of money to throw at politicians, but we have more votes if the politicians see that it's the votes that count, but we have to get serious about it.

Or maybe buy directly from farmers who live nearby. If you don't know any, or live in an area where there aren't any, then investigate local community food gardens where you can grow you own with like minded people. Why buy from a shop? Meet the farmers and/or start a local food box scheme (Community Supported Agriculture).

Walk the walk. Why wait for someone else to "be the change"?
Meet Permaculturists in your area and learn to co-operate, to share...
I don't know why anyone would want to be led or to lead.

[sirdipswitch]

30 years ago, I stood up, when I really believed that there was still time to do something. I was wrong. It took them 3 weeks to find me. They told me to sit back down and shut up, or my Family Tree, would disapear. I sat back down. I then took a different approach, and as a result, have found a far more powerfull method, by which to aid humanity.

One must first come to understand that which is not written... :wizard:

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Humans require leadership.


Not this human. :no:

Not this human either.

[soleil]

i have been wondering about this revolution myself....
recently i started my own natal chart, to learn my own secrets if any... and deep in there, theres a lot of revolution-ness attributed of/to me.

i did wonder upon what i was interpreting, and then i had a dream where in the essence of it, was that a revolution does not have to be huge in numbers, as long as there is one, who is doing/being the change.

change will follow

[Rich]

30 years ago, I stood up, when I really believed that there was still time to do something. I was wrong. It took them 3 weeks to find me. They told me to sit back down and shut up, or my Family Tree, would disapear. I sat back down. I then took a different approach, and as a result, have found a far more powerfull method, by which to aid humanity.

One must first come to understand that which is not written... :wizard:

That is how I see it too, we cannot force change on people that do not want it, it just doesn't work.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Perhaps the only change needed is to change ourselves, be our own leader, develop our own intuition and have face-to-face meetings, on demand, with our HS.

Until then this training ground may serve a useful purpose as it is. Would any of us want to prevent others from choosing this training experience and the opportunity to play in the big game?

Even making the choice to come into this reality, apparently so dominated by the dark side, may be a learning experience itself. Similar to accepting a dare. Or maybe this is the ultimate Super Bowl of consciousness, and we play for our favorite team. Either way, this is all Prime Creators adventure of self discovery.

We should not be so concerned about controlling others, only ourselves. I fully expect that there are an infinite number of choices and adventures that are more fun than being influenced here by greedy dark side control freaks and fear based entities.

I think SirDipSwitch has found a suitable solution. :first:

[ceetee9]

Who organizes schools of fish or flocks of birds? — All the members within the group naturally use their higher senses to act in coherence, harmony, and entrainment.

The old paradigm model of leadership is based on crude "order and obedience." First humans have to wake up to the fact that each one is a powerful being with abundant potential. Then the free will decision must be made to use that power to also work together with others. Then everything falls into place naturally.

There will always be those, who will embody particular talents more pronouncedly. Everybody will move into the right position according to his or her special talents, if the aforementioned steps are taken.

I don't want to participate in a new paradigm that merely directs sheep. I want to see a genuinely self-empowered humanity, I want everybody to consciously choose the path to enlightenment. What I can do to promote that is living it as whole-heartedly as I can, to let it shine, and to inspire others to do the same.You hit the nail on the head Christian. Bravo!

[Curt]

One must first come to understand that which is not written... :wizard:

This is an intriguing line. What do you mean?

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

One of the problems in our society in terms of leadership is this:

the mentally ill are often predisposed to leadership positions because they require a lot of support (which leaders often set themselves up to receive).

We as a culture need to move away from these "pathological leaders" and foster the philosophy that everyman can be a leader.

Too many of the USA's best and brightest are falling through the cracks.
They are the hippies and the baristas and the street artists of the world.
They are the dancers and the players and the free spirits.

But no one wants them.
Like Gypsies, the creative and the genius are driven before the Juggernaut of popular belief and smashed back into the mire of ignorance and darkness.

In order to see the light we have to lift each other up higher.

[Freed Fox]

We as a culture need to move away from these "pathological leaders"

I think this is truly the heart of the issue, and the reason behind so many's dismissal of the leader/follower paradigm. The fact is that most prominent leaders fit this description, but that does not mean that it should apply to every one.

To accept and follow a leader does not mean you are surrendering your autonomy, nor is it a declaration of your inferiority (or the leader's superiority). A leader can be someone who maintains the unity and focus of a group; someone who aids each individual member in reaching his/her potential and contributing more fully to the whole.

There is a collective trauma among us, perhaps; a reflexive knee-jerk at the idea of a leader who will exploit us and deceive us and lead us astray while reaping the benefits of our subservience... But it doesn't have to be this way.

I think it would be incredibly beneficial to see a new leadership paradigm arise. One that is not a replacement for sovereignty or self-empowerment. Admittedly it my not be entirely new; some see this as what Jesus was doing.

[Peace of Mind]

Don’t worry about finding a leader, everyone is a leader, and everyone has unique qualities that will be vital to the whole. Just be you and just do what you can do. To be a better person go within and be honest with yourself, face your fears, your faults, and your deficiencies. Realize them and remove them through your heighten awareness, remove the limits and if you find it hard to do so…raise the ceiling while building yourself up to bust through the border later. After fixing the self you’ll automatically become the example you want to see in the world. We all are followers to a stint. So knowing this… always be what you want to see in the world and allow the universe to do the rest.

Don’t force the issue, but do be vigilant and exercise patience. Opportunities will surface for you to assist the self and others. The universe will align you with those that are seeking to do the same. Without commitment there will be no change, can’t change something without actually putting in the work, right? Wishful thinking will only guild you in the right direction, you have to have courage to step on the path and follow that path the universe has set for you through your thinking.

The main issue with today is people really aren’t willing to do the things necessary to bring about the change they seek. They let fear stagnate them, they let others persuade them into doing nothing by telling them things like “ you can’t change the world”, “ life isn’t fair”, “get yours because I got mines”, “it’s a dog eat dog world”, “the world will never change, especially in my life time”, “don’t worry about what others do, just worry about yourself”. These are world known quotes people use every day and it is part of the reason why we suffer. There is absolutely nothing holding us back but ourselves, all we have to do is commit so others will do the same. Hardly anyone is going to do something if they don’t see it already being done. Too many people not knowing just how powerful they are, afraid to be something they envision themselves to be. We all want this and it’s mindboggling at times to see why we can’t get it.

As far as wondering what we here can do…well that’s easy. All we have to do is form a few threads dedicated to solving problems. I’m sure the people here can do anything they put their minds to.

Peace

[161803398]

At the moment, America's best and brightest are being assassinated.

Take a realistic look at most of the leaders in history -- they were paranoid or insane. Some of them were just really sick assholes.

It takes a special combination of qualities to be a great leader....someone with his head screwed on who can state the obvious with enough strength to focus our energies to a couple of powerful points and make change.

In today's world -- the person would almost have to have a death wish with though......hmmmm, maybe its time for another martyr/saint/savior.

If one appears I am sure the powers that be will kill him off as quickly as they can find him. We would have to hide him in the weeds.

[RMorgan]

We as a culture need to move away from these "pathological leaders"

I think this is truly the heart of the issue, and the reason behind so many's dismissal of the leader/follower paradigm. The fact is that most prominent leaders fit this description, but that does not mean that it should apply to every one.

To accept and follow a leader does not mean you are surrendering your autonomy, nor is it a declaration of your inferiority (or the leader's superiority). A leader can be someone who maintains the unity and focus of a group; someone who aids each individual member in reaching his/her potential and contributing more fully to the whole.

There is a collective trauma among us, perhaps; a reflexive knee-jerk at the idea of a leader who will exploit us and deceive us and lead us astray while reaping the benefits of our subservience... But it doesn't have to be this way.

I think it would be incredibly beneficial to see a new leadership paradigm arise. One that is not a replacement for sovereignty or self-empowerment. Admittedly it my not be entirely new; some see this as what Jesus was doing.

Hey mate,

I agree with you; The leadership paradigm should change, but first we need to drive a cultural change, and for that, we need strong leaders.

I´m not talking about that kind of absolute leader, nor someone to be worshiped. I´m talking about someone who can inspire people, someone who can get people organized around common goals.

As Jung used to say, "The true leader is always led". This is absolutely true. The true leader is led by the will of the people, not the contrary. The true leader is there to amplify and organize individual ideals exponentially, bringing them to the collective realm.

Governments all over the world are killing or neutralizing potential leaders for a reason; They are the catalyst of change, meaning that they have the potential to exponentially accelerate change.

I know that proactive and aware individuals can be their own leaders, which is great. However, we´re not talking individuals here; We´re talking about the collective, and you might agree that the vast majority of people, for several reasons, can´t thing independently. Liking or not, this is a fact. Thinking that all of a sudden everybody will wake up, become aware and start acting proactively is utopia.

People, as a collective, need leaders, at least for now. As far as I know, I´m not aware of a single society in human history who could thrive without leadership. It wont be easy to change this paradigm.

Raf.

[161803398]

a good leader is a focal point.

[christian]

The leadership paradigm should change, but first we need to drive a cultural change, and for that, we need strong leaders.

I´m not talking about that kind of absolute leader, nor someone to be worshiped. I´m talking about someone who can inspire people, someone who can get people organized around common goals.

As Jung used to say, "The true leader is always led". This is absolutely true. The true leader is led by the will of the people, not the contrary. The true leader is there to amplify and organize individual ideals exponentially, bringing them to the collective realm.

I think Alex Jones is a wonderful example of such a leader, as are many others who put themselves out there. Alex breaks things down very succinctly, he identifies essential dangers, challenges, and tasks, and he inspires people to stand up for themselves. He is leading the people to self-empowerment, I find. The leaders we need are people who visibly stand up to tyranny, everybody can be that type of person, on whatever scale. Everybody who stands up, acts, and raises his or her voice for freedom and decency is such a leader.

Cso6kdHZ794

[Peace of Mind]

The “leaders “will emerge when they reclaim their power. As of now, we continue to hoist up and follow our flawed and corrupt governments without holding them accountable. A leader also has to see if there is anyone to lead. A leader cannot lead if there is no one to support him/her. A leader will rise out of despair, he/she will gladly sacrifice self for the many, and he/she will have courage because he/she will see the support. I doubt anyone is going to rise to the occasion if the need for the leader is not made clear. We have to make this clear individually so it can spread; I’m sure this will be very contagious and hamper any resistance.

We cannot sit by and let our leader’s suffer/die/or be harmed without punishment…in the least show the perpetrators that we are on to their evil ways, we don’t do this. If we don’t show ourselves to be worthy of freedom and equality then I ask the question “do we really deserve to be lead out of the flames”? We have to show what we feel, how do we expect a leader to truly recognize what we want if we don’t show it? This is the only way I see any type of benevolent leadership forming.

Peace

[Fred Steeves]

I actually see this as two different subjects. There is setting an example, which can be easily confused with leadership, and then there is leadership as talked about here. The only way I can square "leadership" with the way I currently see the world, is a multifaceted group, with each individual possessing their own unique and natural talents and education, all acting as one complete yet diverse people.

Whenever any given situation is presented the group, the one or ones fitted to deal with it will naturally step to the forefront, and represent the group. When said situation has been handled, they simply blend back in as one with their brothers and sisters. When a different situation presents itself, a different part of the group will naturally step forward to represent.

[161803398]

Most of the present leaders in North America at least are looking at things quite differently than we are. The empire looks like its going to fall. Another empire is going to rise...they are afraid that is going to be Iran and they are doing what many people do when they are afraid of something -- actually making it worse by doing the very things that are going to hasten a collapse. You see the Ahmedinijad in the news...what is he doing...smiling, yes? He must know America is screwing itself more than he ever could. Not saying he is a great guy...I hear he's not. But he knows what he is doing. If you are taking winners and losers....right now the American government is acting like the biggest loser in the world. Go to a courtroom one day....see the guy who is yelling, threatening and making an ass of himself...you know who is?....he is the LOSER! This is just how the universe operates. Right now the American government is a loser on steroids. The CIA tries to manipulate that all time to even things out a bit and take out some pretty good people. I worry what they are doing to the gene pool :).

The only way America can get back on track is to STOP, sit back, think for bit, CUT back, stop bombing people to hell, and move forward with a creative plan.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

I envision a world without excess industrialism.
A world where there are gardens and walking paths.
Quiet places full of green things.
Not all these cars, trucks, and trains... something more efficient.

Local agriculture and greenhouses,
better transportation,
better energy sources, are what is needed.

the space and the technology to feed and clothe the hundreds of billions of people mother earth can support with human help.

[161803398]

That would be great but remember what happened to the Native North Americans -- taken out by control freaks.

[SKAWF]

we when the mass has no clear plan or direction...
what usually happens is that there is a build up of pressure.

usually the spark, or event needed to release all that pressure
is often determined by the opposition.....

when they take things too far.....

then BANG!.

it will be the person who brings calm and reason to the situation, i think, who will end up being the leader.

[Youniverse]

Who organizes schools of fish or flocks of birds? — All the members within the group naturally use their higher senses to act in coherence, harmony, and entrainment.

The old paradigm model of leadership is based on crude "order and obedience." First humans have to wake up to the fact that each one is a powerful being with abundant potential. Then the free will decision must be made to use that power to also work together with others. Then everything falls into place naturally.

There will always be those, who will embody particular talents more pronouncedly. Everybody will move into the right position according to his or her special talents, if the aforementioned steps are taken.

I don't want to participate in a new paradigm that merely directs sheep. I want to see a genuinely self-empowered humanity, I want everybody to consciously choose the path to enlightenment. What I can do to promote that is living it as whole-heartedly as I can, to let it shine, and to inspire others to do the same.You hit the nail on the head Christian. Bravo!

Ya this is pretty much how I see it right now too. Everyone must be a leader simultaneously on equal terms. Then as christian said it comes down to who has certain talents and serves. Certain indivduals are talented in leading the way but do so as a form of service to the group, like a sort of duty.

[ThePythonicCow]

The old paradigm model of leadership is based on crude "order and obedience." First humans have to wake up to the fact that each one is a powerful being with abundant potential. Then the free will decision must be made to use that power to also work together with others. Then everything falls into place naturally.
May I suggest a somewhat different way of looking at this?

Most groups that I have worked with or in which worked well, including families, schools, workplaces, neighborhoods, web forums, open source software projects, ... knew, for most decisions, who the "go to" person or persons was for that decision, at that time. One person, or the consensus of some people, determine most things, but who determines what is quite shifting and varied.

The main problem we are having with the traditional "hierarchical" way of organizing society is that a few attempt to be the "go to" people for any decision they consider worth controlling. It is the attempt to acquire a monopoly on decision making that is the problem.

Where it works well, the "go to" people form a complex and ever shifting web. Everyone has some areas where they make the final decision, and this shifts. The child gets to decide when and where to run and play ... until sleep time, other duties, or the truck coming down the road empower the mother to override that. Most of the time this is actually pretty obvious to most of us. We know we shouldn't, nor want to, decide everything involving others, demanding to have it our way. We also know that it would not be a good idea to demand a democratic vote on every detail of everything we do that involves others. Rather we have a pretty good idea who (individually or by consensus of a small group) is calling the beat for each of those myriad aspects of our shared existence, and we usually choose to follow that beat, or call out that beat if it's us, or go for a change in who's calling it, when appropriate.

In short, this is not a question of "Do we empower the Bosses or do we empower ourselves?" Rather this is a question of forming and nurturing a healthy web of responsibility. Group matters are properly reflected in the dynamic structure of the group, and are not just an accumulation of the acts of isolated and individual sovereign beings.

Yes, as you say Christian, we do make a "free will decision" "to use" our "power to also work together with others." Then in cooperation with others, developing a healthy web of responsibility, decision making is distributed across the web in a complex and shifting manner, with many decisions made by a single individual, but with who (which individual or consent based group) makes which decision being a rather subtle question.

[Youniverse]

The old paradigm model of leadership is based on crude "order and obedience." First humans have to wake up to the fact that each one is a powerful being with abundant potential. Then the free will decision must be made to use that power to also work together with others. Then everything falls into place naturally.
May I suggest a somewhat different way of looking at this?

Most groups that I have worked with or in which worked well, including families, schools, workplaces, neighborhoods, web forums, open source software projects, ... knew, for most decisions, who the "go to" person or persons was for that decision, at that time. One person, or the consensus of some people, determine most things, but who determines what is quite shifting and varied.

The main problem we are having with the traditional "hierarchical" way of organizing society is that a few attempt to be the "go to" people for any decision they consider worth controlling. It is the attempt to acquire a monopoly on decision making that is the problem.

Where it works well, the "go to" people form a complex and ever shifting web. Everyone has some areas where they make the final decision, and this shifts. The child gets to decide when and where to run and play ... until sleep time, other duties, or the truck coming down the road empower the mother to override that. Most of the time this is actually pretty obvious to most of us. We know we shouldn't, nor want to, decide everything involving others, demanding to have it our way. We also know that it would not be a good idea to demand a democratic vote on every detail of everything we do that involves others. Rather we have a pretty good idea who (individually or by consensus of a small group) is calling the beat for each of those myriad aspects of our shared existence, and we usually choose to follow that beat, or call out that beat if it's us, or go for a change in who's calling it, when appropriate.

In short, this is not a question of "Do we empower the Bosses or do we empower ourselves?" Rather this is a question of forming and nurturing a healthy web of responsibility. Group matters are properly reflected in the dynamic structure of the group, and are not just an accumulation of the acts of isolated and individual sovereign beings.

Yes, as you say Christian, we do make a "free will decision" "to use" our "power to also work together with others." Then in cooperation with others, developing a healthy web of responsibility, decision making is distributed across the web in a complex and shifting manner, with many decisions made by a single individual, but with who (which individual or consent based group) makes which decision being a rather subtle question.

I think what you're saying, Paul, is something like Thom Hartmann talks about in "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight"? Hartmann talks about the success of the tribal model over tens of thousands of years. This system is no secret to many tribal groups and Indigenous people today. The leader for that day depends on the goal for the day. There may be a chief, but he is there under the consent of the group. If the group decides the chief is not serving the needs of his/her people, he/she is replaced. The key, IMO, is a group of people that keep their egos in check and so would never dream of doing something detrimental to the group or to nature for that matter. And a leader leads not because of ambition or a thirst for power, but because of his/her duty and service to the group.

[realitycorrodes]

Thank you RMOrgan for the below:

I know that proactive and aware individuals can be their own leaders, which is great. However, we´re not talking individuals here; We´re talking about the collective, and you might agree that the vast majority of people, for several reasons, can´t thing independently. Liking or not, this is a fact. Thinking that all of a sudden everybody will wake up, become aware and start acting proactively is utopia.

People, as a collective, need leaders, at least for now. As far as I know, I´m not aware of a single society in human history who could thrive without leadership. It wont be easy to change this paradigm.

For those who proudly claimed they don't need to be led - that's great.

The discussion I was hoping for was to help those millions out there who are mindlessly led by a greedy corrupt few.

As being led is what they seem to do then it maybe helpful to lead them somewhere where they can begin to learn how to be a free man on the land.

Some of the ideas suggested are great, but I get the feeling they assume the greedy bunch currently leading will just sit back and let the "utopian" idea take place - personally I don't think so.

When one is being pinned down by a force, one needs to know how to set oneself free of that force. Most of the ideas presented were one's that applied once the person had unpinned themselves from the force - not how to unpin themselves.

When people suggest things will happen "naturally" - I wonder why then they have not "naturally" happened already.

Thank you Peace of Mind for the below, I particularly resonate with the bitter truth you stated.... “do we really deserve to be lead out of the flames”?

If we don’t show ourselves to be worthy of freedom and equality then I ask the question “do we really deserve to be lead out of the flames”? We have to show what we feel, how do we expect a leader to truly recognize what we want if we don’t show it? This is the only way I see any type of benevolent leadership forming.

[realitycorrodes]

Educating is different from Leading.

I am talking about someone who will organise those around the world to make a stand against the tyranny by disobeying on mass.

I am talking about a leader that is not manufactured to jump through the hoops of a rigged democratic circus - someone who stands outside of the political distraction.

Someone who just goes straight to the root of power - the individual - and organises them without defaulting to someone else's ballot system. Communicates directly with them, without using

phony models of propaganda etc. etc.

No middle man - like TV - interpreting and fiddling the information.

Leader to people directly - if that is possible.

And the information being how to organise the visionary people to present a formidible force for mass change.

I was not talking about the unknown sage sitting in the himalayas who has organised their own inner world of peace - and has decided they are free by their own standards.

Although, I do feel self realisation is a valuable aid in advancing to a more peaceful abundant and loving society - something has to be done to throw off the oppressive forces that have been holding the majority of frightened unimaginative humans down.

It may be that the majority when they hear what the visionaries have to say about a more peaceful abundant and loving society - may not believe such a thing is possible - and may be too frightened to make the changes needed for fear of the "forceful oppressors" punishing them for stepping out of line. If such is the case then Peace of mind maybe right...

“do we really deserve to be lead out of the flames”?

[realitycorrodes]

People like David Icke and Alex Jones don't need to educate anymore, the people they have educated are doing the educating.

They need to realise the time for educating has had it's day. If they were better than they are they would start organising the people who believe in real change to

become a force for change. This would show the real color of their skin - cos there is a big difference between sitting comfortably in a lecture room educating to

being someone visibly out in the opon bravely for everyone to see organising millions of people to act in the same synchroniced moment as a unified civil disobedience...for example.

If only one person becomes civilly disobedient they get throw in jail - but if millions do it at the same time - well that is real change. We need someone to organise this synchronicity, IMHO.

Once the oppressors see a focal point of real change ( a bone fide leader) who organising the people into a significant force for real change visibly out in the open so all the other frightened sheep can see, then they are going to want to protect their status quo- their status quo being the frightened sheep they shepherd!

All this arrogant rhetoric about how free you are, while being hidden away behind a computer does not pose any threat to the status quo. What does not pose a threat to the status quo does not pose any real change. Sorry - except perhaps in one's own mind?

When was the last time we so a focal point of genuine authentic change? JFK? lol

Even the half hearted ones got taken out of the game reasonably quickly and personally I don't even think they were genuine authentic leaders of change.

Just something to think about....in my humble opinion.


The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

[Dennis Leahy]

You are convinced that "civil disobedience" is going to foment change. Will it? And if it does, will it foment the kind of change you are hoping for - or merely lance the boil? Are you thinking that millions of people, rising up, spilling into the streets, and shouting is the desired civil disobedience - and what the probable consequences are?

Does civil disobedience (in your definition) include the first ever nationwide general strike?

Do you have a plan that will remove the bad guys, or is the plan to yell at the bad guys and tell them to become good guys? (The latter seems to be the plan of most activists and activist organizations. I don't believe they have ever sat down and thought about this glaring mistake in their plan/strategy.)

Do you realize who runs the world? And, who runs your country? Do you think it is OK if they remain in control of the country, or do you expect them all to step down? If they are going to remain in control of the country, what do you see modifying their actions (to make them benevolent?)

Got any leverage to force the bad guys to do what we want?

If the bad guys can be forced out, what's to stop a new set of bad guys - herded into power by the Global Rulers/Financial Elite/Corporatists - from simply taking up where the last group of mercenaries/puppets left off?

Have you read "The Reset Button" document to try to see if that might be a starting place, and if not, to at least have a clearer picture of the big picture of what you are hoping to achieve?

Would you recognize an unstoppable plan and strategy if you saw one? How far are you personally willing to go - in non-violent action of some sort(s)?

Dennis

[Youniverse]

People like David Icke and Alex Jones don't need to educate anymore, the people they have educated are doing the educating.

They need to realise the time for educating has had it's day. If they were better than they are they would start organising the people who believe in real change to

become a force for change. This would show the real color of their skin - cos there is a big difference between sitting comfortably in a lecture room educating to

being someone visibly out in the opon bravely for everyone to see organising millions of people to act in the same synchroniced moment as a unified civil disobedience...for example.

If only one person becomes civilly disobedient they get throw in jail - but if millions do it at the same time - well that is real change. We need someone to organise this synchronicity, IMHO.

Once the oppressors see a focal point of real change ( a bone fide leader) who organising the people into a significant force for real change visibly out in the open so all the other frightened sheep can see, then they are going to want to protect their status quo- their status quo being the frightened sheep they shepherd!

All this arrogant rhetoric about how free you are, while being hidden away behind a computer does not pose any threat to the status quo. What does not pose a threat to the status quo does not pose any real change. Sorry - except perhaps in one's own mind?

When was the last time we so a focal point of genuine authentic change? JFK? lol

Even the half hearted ones got taken out of the game reasonably quickly and personally I don't even think they were genuine authentic leaders of change.

Just something to think about....in my humble opinion.

So what you're saying is that one's own meditation practice and expanding of consciousness and sending out continual waves of higher frequency has no effect on the status quo and their grip on the sheep? Are you sure about that? This is how the whole thing started my friend. By waves of information we call energy. I get your overall point and I believe it's a good one. Just don't underestimate powers of persuasion that you might not fully understand(neither do I of course). I can't speak for anyone else that uses this forum, but I can tell you that I do my best to send out the message in as many ways as I know how. I tell as many people that will listen, anywhere I can. I'm constantly reaching out to try and organize so as to have more power in unity. I'm involved in meditation groups, channelling groups, community volunteer organizations, all to expand my awareness and create more opportunities to share what i know. I'm not at all saying this to brag, I know I can always do a lot more! A lot of people on this forum do what I do and a whole lot more. All that being said I go back to your main point, and I love you for your passion and commitment. We DO need more cohesion and leadership. We need more expressed unity and organization for sure. So I'm open, as I'm sure you are, to as many ideas as we can muster!

[realitycorrodes]

Youniverse, I don't know if the meditation works, I am not against it - I guess I am not seeing the change as quickly as I would like and I feel something more physical could be done to speed the process up.

Stay well I mean you no harm.

[gripreaper]

Were on one big Reservation, and Toby can't jump the fence and leave the plantation, or he will be hunted down, killed, or returned to slavery. Most of the other slaves will see this, and accept their slavery, for at least they get a house, a bed, and some food to eat. It's cold, dark, and lonely out there without the support of the corporate fiat debt based system.

Look at any sovereign nation, such as the LAKOTA'S, who have treaties in place which are not honored, have no ability to operate in commerce and trade, and are in abject poverty unless they acquiesce to the corporatocracy. When they resisted, they were gunned down at Wounded Knee, every last one, all women and children too. Their revolution had leaders.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c68.0.403.403/p403x403/550476_4192852588803_47276253_n.jpg

The us citizen, a class of citizens created in 1861 under the Reconstruction Act, made us all slaves after the civil war. Our forefathers acquiesced to it. The original 13th amendment, which prohibited "titles of nobility" such as lawyers, to be in office, was removed, and now the governments are full of lawyers. In 1933, we agreed to social security, and the safety nets put in place by the banksters after they bankrupted the country and confiscated all the assets. Those who were starving willingly signed the paperwork to become indentured, and they got the only jobs available in the WPA.

Today, 99% of all people have birth certificates hypothicated to these elite banksters, have social security cards, drivers licenses, marriage licenses, and many other adhesion contracts to the state, to which they willingly adhere. They willingly sign and send in the voluntary 1040 form to an illegal private entity called the IRS, and send to the banksters over 80% of all they produce, while they continue to pay the usury of debt slavery day in and day out, with nary a whimper.

http://www.epiclol.com/cdn/pictures/2012/03/hamster-got-ahead-of_1332402793_epiclolcom.gif

Until the people wake up, there is no one to lead.

[realitycorrodes]

You are convinced that "civil disobedience" is going to foment change. Will it? And if it does, will it foment the kind of change you are hoping for - or merely lance the boil? Are you thinking that millions of people, rising up, spilling into the streets, and shouting is the desired civil disobedience - and what the probable consequences are?

Does civil disobedience (in your definition) include the first ever nationwide general strike?

Do you have a plan that will remove the bad guys, or is the plan to yell at the bad guys and tell them to become good guys? (The latter seems to be the plan of most activists and activist organizations. I don't believe they have ever sat down and thought about this glaring mistake in their plan/strategy.)

Do you realize who runs the world? And, who runs your country? Do you think it is OK if they remain in control of the country, or do you expect them all to step down? If they are going to remain in control of the country, what do you see modifying their actions (to make them benevolent?)

Got any leverage to force the bad guys to do what we want?

If the bad guys can be forced out, what's to stop a new set of bad guys - herded into power by the Global Rulers/Financial Elite/Corporatists - from simply taking up where the last group of mercenaries/puppets left off?

Have you read "The Reset Button" document to try to see if that might be a starting place, and if not, to at least have a clearer picture of the big picture of what you are hoping to achieve?

Would you recognize an unstoppable plan and strategy if you saw one? How far are you personally willing to go - in non-violent action of some sort(s)?

Dennis

I do not have the answers friend.

I am trying to stimulate discussion on what I feel is a more to the point topic.

I am just using "civil disobedience" as an example - I personally don't know anything about civil disobedience.

Civil disobedience is not my point - it is a small example to try and convey a bigger idea.

I agree whole hearted with all your questions - sounds like you may be leadership material. lol

I am happy to see others critically think about what I am asking and what you are asking.

I actually have done my own critical thinking - I know what the answer's are to my questions for me - but my conclusions are not set in stone - things could be changed if people choose to do something constructive that can be seen and felt...IMHO - lol

I am hoping a group may get together an organise themselves in such a clever and compassionate way to make changes - so the answers I have come to (with my own critical thinking) don't actually happen.

The task is indeed enormous and I don't pretend I have an iota of the intelligence to solve the problem of greed, violence, pain, and suffering on this experience.

But I am sending out a call for people to come forward who may have such intelligence.

Peace.

[Youniverse]

Yes for the most part those words could be used to describe the overall situation in this reality.

[Youniverse]

Youniverse, I don't know if the meditation works, I am not against it - I guess I am not seeing the change as quickly as I would like and I feel something more physical could be done to speed the process up.

Stay well I mean you no harm.

No such offense or harm was taken from my position. I agree with most of what you're saying actually. And I empathize with your feeling of things not happening fast enough in the physical realm.

[realitycorrodes]

Gripreaper - the truth is strong in you - I pay my respects to the truth.

Kinda reminds me of a parable I thought of one day.

Four men on an island

1. A Pacifist/farmer?
2. A killer
3. A banker
4. A geneticist

The killer stole from the pacifist/farmer who did all the work.

After a time the killer got lonely and felt like some company - but no-one like him due to his in one's face threatening to kill behaviour.

The banker informed the killer that he does not have to be so in one's face.

That by inventing a money system with only a hidden threat of being killed would allow for the same stealing - which would distract the pacifist/farmer from the truth that he was being threatened by a killer if he did not hand over 80% of the fruits of his hard work to the killer and the banker.

So for a long time the pacifist/farmer not being clever enough to work out how the banking system was stealing from him settled for the banking system.

But after a while the pacifist/farmer got fed up of doing all the work and point blank refused to do anymore - to the point the killer actually had to come out and threaten the pacifist again directly.

This time the pacifist had really had enough - so pushed the issue to the point the killer actually ended up killing the pacifist for refusing to comply. Civil Disobedience perhaps?

That's when the geneticist stepped in and created another pacifist/farmer.

And the whole process started up again.

The pacifist who eventually refused to be a slave and was killed actually was seen to have learnt the lesson of the earth experience and was seen to have graduated in the realm of spirit and as such did not need to be reincarnated. into the earth experience. That pacifist went on to a different learning experience.

However there was a previous pacifist/farmer before the one just discussed who never stood up to his slavery - who ended up dying due to exhaustion, fear and hard work - that pacifist/farmer unfortunately had to be reincarnated in order to learn the lesson of overcoming one's fear yet again.

P.S. Just having a bit of fun.

[ThePythonicCow]

One of the problems in our society in terms of leadership is this:

the mentally ill are often predisposed to leadership positions because they require a lot of support (which leaders often set themselves up to receive).

We as a culture need to move away from these "pathological leaders" and foster the philosophy that everyman can be a leader.


I think what you're saying, Paul, is something like Thom Hartmann talks about in "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight"? Hartmann talks about the success of the tribal model over tens of thousands of years. This system is no secret to many tribal groups and Indigenous people today.

All "great" (as in large and dominant, extending over 10's or 100's of millions, even billions, of people) civilizations that we know of on this planet have developed means to out live, and out extend, the natural limits of tribal organization. These organizational mechanisms have included royalty (the "crown"), priesthood (the "church"), politicians (the "nation"), and executives (the "corporation"). In each such case, something more complex and larger in scale than a tribe is established, that has sufficient self-sustaining, adaptive, replicating structure to persist, past the lives and personal reach of individuals, and past the tribal like bonds that we humans instinctively form (as do herds of cows and hives of bees and many other grouping animals.)

It's like comparing fungus with complex plants or animals. The essential replicating size of a "fungus colony" is small. The essential replicating size of a "tribe" is small. In both cases, more fungus or more tribes, one just has copies of those simple structures, replicated many times, covering a larger area.

Crowns, churches, nations, and corporations on the other hand are typically "larger" structures, with more complex interacting pieces, covering greater land, wealth and populations. They are like the tree or the mammal, having inherently larger numbers of cells in a more complex structure than does a "colony" of fungus. Fungus can grow on and depend on these larger units (on the sides of trees and whales), but the top level structure of "fungus colonies" remains inherently simpler than that of trees and whales.

The "tribes" that I've enjoyed being a member of (such as groups I've joined in the physical world or on-line) exist as does fungus on a tree. Perhaps there was sufficient abundance in my life from the larger world that I live in that I had time and energy left over, after tending to my food, water, shelter and clothing needs, to engage in other activities. Or perhaps as in the case of my Linux kernel hacking, there was sufficient abundance in the world of computer corporations that they can sustain, in a symbiotic way reminiscent of one's gut bacteria, a tribal like open source development model that's not inherently profit driven, within the larger "greedy" corporations.

It does not make sense to me to suggest that the major organizations on this planet, the crown, the church, the nation and the corporation, should be replaced with tribal model structures. The tribal model does not scale in size or complexity to handle the complex structures essential to the way of life of the seven billion people on this planet.

The present large scale organizations that can handle this population on this planet are sick; however the small scale organizations that we know from personal experience can be healthy and sustainable don't scale.

How do we give birth to a large scale organization that's healthy? How do we even conceive of such an entity? How do we bring it up in the face of the instinctive opposition that existing large scale organizations will have to the existential threat of such an alternative? How do we do this before we have so devastated this planet that it once again is not capable of the abundance necessary to sustain such large organizations, for another long period of time?

[ThePythonicCow]

How do we give birth to a large scale organization that's healthy?Perhaps we don't :).

Perhaps we, the current genetic model known as "humans", have demonstrated by now that we are not a good species at forming large, complex, multi-billion member, healthy civilizations of the form that can span even a single planet, much less a star system or galaxy.

This leads to genetics, DNA modification, and transhumanism, as well as to hidden physics, ... and raises the question of how to avoid having these more powerful instruments also subverted by our current grossly unhealthy "civilization" to its self-preservation and further extension.

Wade Frasier and Carmody raise the question of how to keep hidden physics out of the hands of insufficiently aware humans, like keeping AK-47's out of the hands of angry children. Perhaps the larger question is how to keep such physics out of the hands of the human civilization on this planet. Perhaps it's a century too late to be asking that question.

Perhaps our off world "friends" are watching over us like the zoo keepers might watch over a troop of monkeys that had become too nasty and murderous, making sure they don't also become too skilled in the art of picking the locks on their cages.

[Rich]

When people suggest things will happen "naturally" - I wonder why then they have not "naturally" happened already.


Because the outside world reflects our collective consciousness.
Even thou, here we may choose peace, it isn't enough when there are
billions of people choosing evil every day.

IMO, the leaders needed are already there and the visions and
ideas on how to change the world are there too, just the people are missing.

Hence my post ''we can't force people to change''. That is why sirdipswitch
was told to sit back down, if people were willing to change the evil ones
wouldn't be able to stay in power. No one would have the power to tell him
to sit back down if people were willing to change.

I am not saying we should'nt take action, best action I can think of is to
meditate and tell people the truth about vaccines etc... perhaps I could do
more but am not aware of what that could be.

Anyways, I just want to say our deeds are an automatic expression of our consciousness -
making the deed the cause is like trying to put the the cart before the horse.

[Youniverse]

One of the problems in our society in terms of leadership is this:

the mentally ill are often predisposed to leadership positions because they require a lot of support (which leaders often set themselves up to receive).

We as a culture need to move away from these "pathological leaders" and foster the philosophy that everyman can be a leader.


I think what you're saying, Paul, is something like Thom Hartmann talks about in "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight"? Hartmann talks about the success of the tribal model over tens of thousands of years. This system is no secret to many tribal groups and Indigenous people today.

All "great" (as in large and dominant, extending over 10's or 100's of millions, even billions, of people) civilizations that we know of on this planet have developed means to out live, and out extend, the natural limits of tribal organization. These organizational mechanisms have included royalty (the "crown"), priesthood (the "church"), politicians (the "nation"), and executives (the "corporation"). In each such case, something more complex and larger in scale than a tribe is established, that has sufficient self-sustaining, adaptive, replicating structure to persist, past the lives and personal reach of individuals, and past the tribal like bonds that we humans instinctively form (as do herds of cows and hives of bees and many other grouping animals.)

It's like comparing fungus with complex plants or animals. The essential replicating size of a "fungus colony" is small. The essential replicating size of a "tribe" is small. In both cases, more fungus or more tribes, one just has copies of those simple structures, replicated many times, covering a larger area.

Crowns, churches, nations, and corporations on the other hand are typically "larger" structures, with more complex interacting pieces, covering greater land, wealth and populations. They are like the tree or the mammal, having inherently larger numbers of cells in a more complex structure than does a "colony" of fungus. Fungus can grow on and depend on these larger units (on the sides of trees and whales), but the top level structure of "fungus colonies" remains inherently simpler than that of trees and whales.

The "tribes" that I've enjoyed being a member of (such as groups I've joined in the physical world or on-line) exist as does fungus on a tree. Perhaps there was sufficient abundance in my life from the larger world that I live in that I had time and energy left over, after tending to my food, water, shelter and clothing needs, to engage in other activities. Or perhaps as in the case of my Linux kernel hacking, there was sufficient abundance in the world of computer corporations that they can sustain, in a symbiotic way reminiscent of one's gut bacteria, a tribal like open source development model that's not inherently profit driven, within the larger "greedy" corporations.

It does not make sense to me to suggest that the major organizations on this planet, the crown, the church, the nation and the corporation, should be replaced with tribal model structures. The tribal model does not scale in size or complexity to handle the complex structures essential to the way of life of the seven billion people on this planet.

The present large scale organizations that can handle this population on this planet are sick; however the small scale organizations that we know from personal experience can be healthy and sustainable don't scale.

How do we give birth to a large scale organization that's healthy? How do we even conceive of such an entity? How do we bring it up in the face of the instinctive opposition that existing large scale organizations will have to the existential threat of such an alternative? How do we do this before we have so devastated this planet that it once again is not capable of the abundance necessary to sustain such large organizations, for another long period of time?

Then why did those tribal cultures exist for tens of thousands of years and we are on the verge of a total collapse??? Why have the so-called "great civilzations", from the Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, all collapsed after existing no more than a thousand years? So you're going with the old Darwinian status guo idea that this current so-called civilization(which isn't very civil or free in many ways) must be superior to tribal societies because it took over after squashing and corrupting tribal cultures? Maybe you should read "Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" and let me know if you still think this way. It is wetiko or insanity of the grandest scale, this kind of civilization. Hartmann is not saying we go back to living like stone age people(don't worry you don't have to give uip all your precious stuff), he's saying you take the basics of the tribal model and integrate it with modern living.

[Youniverse]

And I would add by the way, that it's a common mistake for non-indigenous people these days to think that superior technology is the reason why Europeans took over in the Americas. It was actually DISEASE that weakened tribal people so much they could not effectively fight back. Tribal people did not believe in massive genocidal wars either, so this made them easier to devastate with highly developed warlike systems.

[gripreaper]

How do we give birth to a large scale organization that's healthy? How do we even conceive of such an entity? How do we bring it up in the face of the instinctive opposition that existing large scale organizations will have to the existential threat of such an alternative? How do we do this before we have so devastated this planet that it once again is not capable of the abundance necessary to sustain such large organizations, for another long period of time?

My take, is we develop our inner technology, to tap into the resources of the source field and our higher senses, for the answer cannot be found in just the physical and temporal senses. This is what we have at our core as a human species, to create and manifest through other than hierarchical structures. I think the model of hierarchy is obsolete, outdated and is collapsing.

We have deep DNA memory imbedded within our cells, and the collective, of a time when we were faced with this same dilemma. I postulate, that back on Atlantis, when the first tribal structures were emerging into hierarchy, and the elite banksters, descendant from the skies, who had manipulated our very indigenous DNA, attempted to set up the slave structure, we rebelled. The ancient stories all tell of a time when this happened, referring to it as cataclysmic.

This time was marked with the use of external technology to manipulate reality, much like it is today. On Atlantis were great crystals, which magnified and focused energy for outcomes, while now we have WI-fi, I-Phones and Cray 5 computers. If we put our faith in external technology, and do not develop the internal technology, than we will succumb to the same fate, and will have not learned the lesson of all time. The earth will purge us, and another several hundred thousand years will go by until we are faced with the same dilemma again. It matters not in the context of time, how long it takes, or what the outcome is.

It's up to us how many times we want to go around and what the outcome of the collective dream will be.

[ThePythonicCow]

Then why did those tribal cultures exist for tens of thousands of years and we are on the verge of a total collapse??? Why have the so-called "great civilzations", from the Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, all collapsed after existing no more than a thousand years? So you're going with the old Darwinian status guo idea that this current so-called civilization(which isn't very civil or free in many ways) must be superior to tribal societies because it took over after squashing and corrupting tribal cultures? Maybe you should read "Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" and let me know if you still think this way. It is wetiko or insanity of the grandest scale, this kind of civilization. Hartmann is not saying we go back to living like stone age people(don't worry you don't have to give uip all your precious stuff), he's saying you take the basics of the tribal model and integrate it with modern living.

I don't think you understood what I wrote ... not even close.

[Youniverse]

My apologies. I sometimes do not have the time to read an entire post carefully and I skim over it. When I do that I shouldn't comment on the post. Sorry. Maybe you could relay your essential point to me now? I was also going to say that, IMO, we need to drop all our "stories" anyways.

[realitycorrodes]

I think this might be the answer. To become sustainable with our food. To protect our right to grow our own food. Food independence is freedom in many ways.

rIVqGtgDHBo

[realitycorrodes]

I started a new thread based on the documentary above: hope it has not been started already - only cos I don't like to be chastised unnecessarily.

Edible City: Grow the Revolution

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56252-Edible-City-Grow-the-Revolution&p=640588#post640588

Who will lead the growing of the food revolution - knowledge in the areas of organic farming; how to apply for grants to get land to be used for these kind of projects etc. etc.

[Youniverse]

I started a new thread based on the documentary above: hope it has not been started already - only cos I don't like to be chastised unnecessarily.

Edible City: Grow the Revolution

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56252-Edible-City-Grow-the-Revolution&p=640588#post640588

Who will lead the growing of the food revolution - knowledge in the areas of organic farming; how to apply for grants to get land to be used for these kind of projects etc. etc.

Sounds good to me!