The Free Energy Trap

[Fred Steeves]

As much of a fan of the Nikola Tesla types as I am, I still feel the free energy solution is as big of a trap as any of the others. Why? Here's my reasons:

1) Any solution which takes us outside of ourselves for the answers is an age old, tried and true dead end road, and wide open to manipulation. The answer to every "problem" lays solely within each and every individual, and nowhere else.

2) It's putting the cart before the horse. Having that kind of power in the hands of insufficiently raised conscious awareness is a recipe for disaster, and very likely responsible for the destruction of many earlier civilazations much like ours today. Quite possibly even planets.

3) If/when humanity is ready, it will come naturally. Like the old saying goes: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

Not trying to rattle any chains here, just callin em like I see em. :)

Cheers All,
Fred

[Etherios]

As much of a fan of the Nikola Tesla types as I am, I still feel the free energy solution is as big of a trap as any of the others. Why? Here's my reasons:

1) Any solution which takes us outside of ourselves for the answers is an age old, tried and true dead end road, and wide open to manipulation. The answer to every "problem" lays solely within each and every individual, and nowhere else.

2) It's putting the cart before the horse. Having that kind of power in the hands of insufficiently raised conscious awareness is a recipe for disaster, and very likely responsible for the destruction of many earlier civilazations much like ours today. Quite possibly even planets.

3) If/when humanity is ready, it will come naturally. Like the old saying goes: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

Not trying to rattle any chains here, just callin em like I see em. :)

Cheers All,
Fred

so you have the PTB ... brainwashing us from birth in consumerism , in terror, in war , in lies, in obedience to the system and you want us to wait till humanities consciousness raises? No my friend we lost that path when we lost our freedoms long ago.

Now the only way to get out of this is to get it to all and see what happens. The student is brain dead so it doesnt matter how long you wait ... also the teacher is long dead from the wait.

I have faith in humans ... after the first shock of the truth we will shape up. Only when we manage to provide for our children outside of this brainwashing system will humanity ever rise in proper heights.

All technology can be good or evil ... so far only the people that "guide" us had access to them and see what happened ...

Nuclear energy (thorium for example) could had saved the energy issue LONG ago but there were 2 Questions 1- "Will it makes us money?", 2- " will it makes us bombs?" ... with those people "guiding" us we will never Rise ...

[meeradas]

Okaay, let's wait another xK millenia, until "humanity is ready".

No thanks, dude.

*rattle*

[Freed Fox]

Fred, you know I respect you, but I'll have to take the bait and (respectfully) disagree here;

1.) I don't know if anyone is touting free energy as the end-all-be-all solution to everything, but to say that it isn't a solution to anything is incorrect. That's like saying the discovery of electricity solved nothing, that advanced telecommunications has solved nothing, and so on. I agree that the most important steps forward are to be taken internally, but those are not the only steps which can take us forward in any capacity.

2.) That can already be said right here and now. The 'recipe' is already prepared. Nuclear warheads are the Pandora's Box waiting to be opened, not free energy itself. It would seem that any nutjob with the right knowledge could throw the whole world in to chaos at any time using nukes, and they could do it from a number of locations. Pakistan, India, or even here in the U.S. o' A. I don't see how free energy would increase the possibility of disaster/self-destruction.

3.) Unless I misunderstand your definition of 'naturally', then the argument can be made that any technology that comes about is doing so naturally. That can of course become a much deeper debate, regarding the nature of humanity. Is any technology at all natural? Are we?

[norman]

Fred, I think you are going to get a roasting for this.

You've touched a nerve I touched a year or so ago on the main free energy thread here.

I'm shocked by how powerfully I was swiped right out of the discussion for daring to say that the creation of "free" energy would be additive and that something else has to balance that.

If us crazy apes got a hold of "free" energy, we'd seriously over heat the situation in no time. Well, that was my entry point into the discussion. Instead of getting responses that reasoned with my thinking, I was effectively told I wasn't up to sitting with the big boys to talk about it.

It felt alarmingly like being zapped by an ism that's got power behind it. I've felt it also with the man made climate change lobby.

Whenever something as overwhelmingly defensive as that hits me between the eyes, I'm outta there.

[Lefty Dave]

Yeah, i know what you imply here, Fred...
but wouldn't it be nice if just once, someone like Kashe or Tesla came along and actually did something as magnificent as present the world with a free energy source...something as simple as a few rows of magnets that spin themselves...and showed us how to use it...IMAGINE .
I would risk the "end of the world" misuse you speak of in part 2...because I feel a generation of humans that could live as humans... and not robot slaves to the robberbarrons...would pretty much end the hatred and animosities that people turn to out of desperation and denial ...anyway...your point is well taken. Blessings

[DeDukshyn]

I watched on the show of "Dragon's Den" once, an inventor who had made and patented a device that could generate about twice the output of electricity from input -- basically 10 amps in = 20 amps out. Something to that effect.

Well guess what? One of the investors bought his patent and company for some large sum of money. The investor then revealed that he is already heavily involved in investing with electric companies.

Right away I became disgusted because I realized what was happening. The investor only wanted that tech to make more profit for the electric companies he has invested in. I am 100% certain that no layman will ever know much about that tech via normal media sources, and that it will be used to make a few people twice the amount of profit, no one will ever benefit. The inventor was used, and ended up losing his patent.

So, in that regard ... I think this adds credence to Fred's OP -- unfortunately.

ADDITION: Although I don't think destroying the earth is an issue.

Tesla divided up some of his most powerful patents and spread them to different countries, with the idea that if they wanted it, they'd have to get together and work on it. Therefore everyone gets the tech at once - the "safety" so to speak.

I think as long as it is presented to all nations at once, the risk becomes less. Like how nuclear weapons has thus far more or less prevented WWIII -- everyone understands the risks, so no one uses the weapons. Point two on this topic is that Tesla had a defence system that could stop anything -- even nukes. Give everyone the defenses, and the weapons become useless -- thus more creative uses will be found.

My two cents ... but yes .. global equality and responsibility in this regard will be needed.

[Trail]

Fred you forgot one,

4) Aliens will save us, they will land and give all the lightworkers free energy devices.

On a serious note, i disagree with all options, they all lead to humanity sitting on their asses watching tv doing nothing for themselves.

If i understand you correctly, the advice translated into practical steps to take is as follows:
1) Just sit and meditate, you don't need to work to create something beneficial, just manifest it.

So why is the human race mind controlled via haaarp and satelite hardware, why isn't the enemy just meditating like we should do?

2) Consider ourselves to be too inresponsible to handle free energy.

Well thats a joke because personaly i'm convinced free energy devices already exist but the irresponsibles have gotten a hold of it. This advice also comes down to humanity sitting down and waiting for change.

3) Sit and wait for change some more.

No thank you we need to come together in action NOW imho.

~Trail.

[DeDukshyn]

Fred you forgot one,

4) Aliens will save us, they will land and give all the lightworkers free energy devices.

On a serious note, i disagree with all options, they all lead to humanity sitting on their asses watching tv doing nothing for themselves.

If i understand you correctly, the advice translated into practical steps to take is as follows:
1) Just sit and meditate, you don't need to work to create something beneficial, just manifest it.

So why is the human race mind controlled via haaarp and satelite hardware, why isn't the enemy just meditating like we should do?

2) Consider ourselves to be too inresponsible to handle free energy.

Well thats a joke because personaly i'm convinced free energy devices already exist but the irresponsibles have gotten a hold of it. This advice also comes down to humanity sitting down and waiting for change.

3) Sit and wait for change some more.

No thank you we need to come together in action NOW imho.

~Trail.

Don't forget #5 -- All the skeptics will somehow come up with an idea on their own and invent it ...
Or what about #6? -- Jesus will bring the tech on the second coming and enforce us to use it peacefully.

LOL! -- no offense to skeptics and Christians intended.


BTW, you should research how much military, government and even corporations use tactics like remote viewing, visualizations and other "useless" spiritual phenomenon -- they really do use all these tactics that most lay people mock. However, they usually have grand resources in this area compared to the average joe, thus their training is often vastly more effective. Jupiter -- NASA was told by their remote viewers that it had a ring ... long before any satellite was able to confirm that -- I believe this is publicly available info ...

I'm not saying we don't need to get off our asses, we Do! Delight started an interesting thread here on the topic: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56229-The-Phase&p=640369&viewfull=1#post640369

[RMorgan]

Hey Fred,

Honestly, I think humanity and the planet itself would be much better if we didn´t have even invented electric energy generators at all.

All this technology didn´t make people any happier than they were before; It just led us farther from nature and opened the biggest can of worms humanity has ever seen.

Cheers,

Raf.

[DeDukshyn]

Hey Fred,

Honestly, I think humanity and the planet itself would be much better if we didn´t have even invented electric energy generators at all.

All this technology didn´t make people any happier than they were before; It just led us farther from nature and opened the biggest can of worms humanity has ever seen.

Cheers,

Raf.

I sort of agree, but we are here now, so ... I think what we need to do is take a few steps back and see what needs to be integrated into a natural way of living and what does not. To do this we will have to revert culturally somewhat to simpler lives, and then integrate the technologies that are truly beneficial to the entire planet, as opposed to any individual's greed or wants; then go from there. How to do that? Not sure ....

[bruno dante]

Hey Fred,

Wouldn't any solution take us outside ourselves?;)

I understand your concern about relatively unevolved beings having sophisticated technology, but as time winds down on planet earth, putting the cart before the horse may be a chance I'm willing to take.
Besides, I look around and see all the damage us unevolved beings are doing with what I think of as primitive energy sources (gas, oil specifically), and seeing as though we're on the road to annihilation anyway,
why not take the plunge?

I think the student is ready; It's just that a bunch of sociopathic, ritualistic, profoundly sick men have abducted the teacher;) I know that doesn't have the same ring as your aphorism, and I don't expect anybody to
embroider their pillows with it..but that's how I see it.

[Etherios]

Fred, I think you are going to get a roasting for this.

You've touched a nerve I touched a year or so ago on the main free energy thread here.

I'm shocked by how powerfully I was swiped right out of the discussion for daring to say that the creation of "free" energy would be additive and that something else has to balance that.

If us crazy apes got a hold of "free" energy, we'd seriously over heat the situation in no time. Well, that was my entry point into the discussion. Instead of getting responses that reasoned with my thinking, I was effectively told I wasn't up to sitting with the big boys to talk about it.

It felt alarmingly like being zapped by an ism that's got power behind it. I've felt it also with the man made climate change lobby.

Whenever something as overwhelmingly defensive as that hits me between the eyes, I'm outta there.

Hmm so we are apes? I thought we were sentient beings that were one with the creator ...

weird i always thought that humans were born pure and then got twisted by the "training" we had in order to become members of this sick society.

I prefer i get us "apes" to have the free will to select death or evolution ... that just wait to die as cattle like we are nowdays.

[Kano]

Fred,

I can appreciate where you are coming from in this post. If I may, my .02 on the matter.

"Free" energy is a bit of a misnomer. The concept of free energy is in and of itself a fallacy. It is my understanding that the energy comes from somewhere, ala "matter is neither created, nor destroyed". Where I believe our misunderstandings come from about energy being free is that we are unable to measure from where (and I think it's fair to say "when") this energetic sustenance is coming. Since we can only measure spatially, we believe it to be free. I have a very VERY smart friend who knows a lot about this kind of thing. Here's a small excerpt from a conversation we had recently:


Particles can be charged or uncharged (conventional science only recognizes the charged state). The uncharged electron, which is the true anti-particle (not the positron) is the source of electric current, appearing as a "hole" because it has its existence in coordinate time, where we can't measure structure. Since atoms are temporal displacements, and the electron is a spatial displacement, the relationship of space/time constitutes motion, so uncharged electrons can freely move through atomic structure as current. A conventional, charged electron has its displacement in time, just like the atom, and the relation of time/time is NOT motion, so charged electrons cannot flow between atoms, but must exist outside the atomic structure, in the vacuum of space (vacuum of space/time of charged electron IS motion). It is actually pretty simple, once you understand the space/time relationships.

I think we need to consider the temporal aspect of energy as well as the spatial. Unfortunately, mainstream science does not allow for this interpretation. I am of the opinion that e=mc2 is a good way to measure energy in the spatial realm but it does not take into account what accessing this "free" energy does in the temporal realm, which by the way is where a lot of the nasty beings that seek to control this planet naturally reside.

Alas, it is just another type of technology. And technology can be used for good or bad. But if our spirituality does not rise congruently with the technologies we seek to use, there will always be the potential for major disaster. Round and round we go...

[RMorgan]

Hey Fred,

Honestly, I think humanity and the planet itself would be much better if we didn´t have even invented electric energy generators at all.

All this technology didn´t make people any happier than they were before; It just led us farther from nature and opened the biggest can of worms humanity has ever seen.

Cheers,

Raf.

I sort of agree, but we are here now, so ... I think what we need to do is take a few steps back and see what needs to be integrated into a natural way of living and what does not. To do this we will have to revert culturally somewhat to simpler lives, and then integrate the technologies that are truly beneficial to the entire planet, as opposed to any individual's greed or wants; then go from there. How to do that? Not sure ....

Yeah, mate. Something like that.

We have too much useless stuff, and this excessive possession of useless stuff is killing us and the planet.

I´m afraid that, with free energy, within our current mentality, people will get lost within even more useless technological stuff and civilization will move towards technological singularity, which is the goal of transhumanism.

You know, whenever I go near a school or a shopping mall, I see those kids, barely interacting with each other, each one messing with their iphones or ipads....It makes me said. I wonder what kind of adults they will become one day.

If I stop to think right now, I believe the only really useful technological stuff I have in my home is the refrigerator. Even though, I could live perfectly well without one.

Man, the European colonization was the worse thing that ever happened to mankind. Looking back to the indigenous people, I can see why they were happy and why they didn´t even had the need to evolve technologically.

Raf.

[Etherios]

Hey Fred,

Honestly, I think humanity and the planet itself would be much better if we didn´t have even invented electric energy generators at all.

All this technology didn´t make people any happier than they were before; It just led us farther from nature and opened the biggest can of worms humanity has ever seen.

Cheers,

Raf.

Hello RMorgan ... i will strongly disagree with you ... Why?

Its very simple ... technology is a tool - an object - a theory. The people that use it define the result and Guess who has all the keys ... it isnt me or you right?

[DouglasDanger]

We are the chimp,

GhxqIITtTtU

[RMorgan]

Hey Fred,

Honestly, I think humanity and the planet itself would be much better if we didn´t have even invented electric energy generators at all.

All this technology didn´t make people any happier than they were before; It just led us farther from nature and opened the biggest can of worms humanity has ever seen.

Cheers,

Raf.

Hello RMorgan ... i will strongly disagree with you ... Why?

Its very simple ... technology is a tool - an object - a theory. The people that use it define the result and Guess who has all the keys ... it isnt me or you right?

Hey mate,

The way I see it, there was, very basically, two models of society in this world, in the last thousands of years.

One was unhappy, living in disharmony, looking for answers outside, in technology, mostly for domination purposes and for killing other people. ie; Europeans.

The other was happy, living in harmony with nature, looking for answers inside,within spiritual and humanist evolution, using a bit of technology mostly to grow food and things like that. ie; Indigenous people from all around the world.

Unfortunately, the world was dominated by the first one, and here we are now. The vast majority of technological things we have nowadays was invented for military purposes. Our current society was, and still is, created by wars.

Is there a way to create a society, that is a perfect balance of both these basic models? I don´t know. It would be nice, though.

Raf.

[Etherios]

Hey Fred,

Honestly, I think humanity and the planet itself would be much better if we didn´t have even invented electric energy generators at all.

All this technology didn´t make people any happier than they were before; It just led us farther from nature and opened the biggest can of worms humanity has ever seen.

Cheers,

Raf.

Hello RMorgan ... i will strongly disagree with you ... Why?

Its very simple ... technology is a tool - an object - a theory. The people that use it define the result and Guess who has all the keys ... it isnt me or you right?

Hey mate,

The way I see it, there was, very basically, two models of society in this world, in the last thousands of years.

One was unhappy, living in disharmony, looking for answers outside, in technology, mostly for domination purposes. ie; Europeans.

The other was happy, living in harmony with nature, looking for answers inside,within spiritual and humanist evolution. ie; Indigenous people from all around the world.

Unfortunately, the world was dominated by the first one, and here we are now.

Is there a way to create a society, that is a perfect balance of both these basic models? I don´t know. It would be nice, though.

Raf.

RMorgan ... you are wrong ... there is no europeans and Indigenous people ... we are all humans. Europeans were just conquered by those that want to become "gods" (part machine or what ever) and were trained to be pets/slaves. Indigenous people were the lucky ones that didnt had these nonhumans to "train" them ...


It makes me sad to see fellow humans ... thinking of our race as nothing more that animals.

I will always think humans if left alone will create heaven on earth. We are just not acting as humans ... they have turned us into brainless chimps like the video above.


p.s. if you lose hope that there is a better future ... then why we even live? I find it pointless to just stay and wait to die cause nothing will change ... as Fred said.

[Wind]

I think that I understand that what you're saying Fred. It makes the perfect sense to me.

There is the time and place for everything. Humans are still as a race... Infants. We once had great powers and we misused them. Power tends to corrupt. Everything "outside" us is a trap. Then again, in a way we are supposed to be interested in doing or inventing something. At least some of us want and demand actions. The game of life is interesting, isn't it?

When something is supposed to happen then it will happen. There are many grand things going on at the moment. We can't truly change the world until we change ourselves... Look inside, learn to really know yourself.

I do still think that mother Earth has the final say in everything. I think that she has finally had enough of the abuse. She will deliver, no doubt about it.

Nothing is never stagnant and everything changes when it is supposed to. Are we supposed to wait for a miracle? No, at least not anymore. We're supposed to live in harmony with our surroundings. I think that a reset is needed in a way or another in order to get away from this collective state of imbalance.

In the meantime, will we be afraid of the changes in the very near future or shall we embrace them? Will we be sharing love and kidness or fear and hate?

At the moment all is well... Because there is nothing but now.

I just have a dream of a new beautiful world. Let's do what we can and create it.

[DeDukshyn]

Hey Fred,

Honestly, I think humanity and the planet itself would be much better if we didn´t have even invented electric energy generators at all.

All this technology didn´t make people any happier than they were before; It just led us farther from nature and opened the biggest can of worms humanity has ever seen.

Cheers,

Raf.

Hello RMorgan ... i will strongly disagree with you ... Why?

Its very simple ... technology is a tool - an object - a theory. The people that use it define the result and Guess who has all the keys ... it isnt me or you right?

Hey mate,

The way I see it, there was, very basically, two models of society in this world, in the last thousands of years.

One was unhappy, living in disharmony, looking for answers outside, in technology, mostly for domination purposes. ie; Europeans.

The other was happy, living in harmony with nature, looking for answers inside,within spiritual and humanist evolution. ie; Indigenous people from all around the world.

Unfortunately, the world was dominated by the first one, and here we are now.

Is there a way to create a society, that is a perfect balance of both these basic models? I don´t know. It would be nice, though.

Raf.

RMorgan ... you are wrong ... there is no europeans and Indigenous people ... we are all humans. Europeans were just conquered by those that want to become "gods" (part machine or what ever) and were trained to be pets/slaves. Indigenous people were the lucky ones that didnt had these nonhumans to "train" them ...


It makes me sad to see fellow humans ... thinking of our race as nothing more that animals.

I will always think humans if left alone will create heaven on earth. We are just not acting as humans ... they have turned us into brainless chimps like the video above.

Despite our intelligence, unless we learn to move beyond reacting with fear (and thus greed), we aren't a whole lot different. We have the vast potential of "being a whole lot different", however, or ego or "reptilian brain" the part that is responsible for fight ot flight responses -- aka reaction, needs to get into the backseat and not be a decision making entity. It always comes down to individual's changes within themselves, and the application that that may have in helping us reach a critical mass of forward thinking.

I agree with you, but not without that distinction ;)

[ceetee9]

I too respectfully disagree Fred. I'm sufficiently confident that the technology is already in the hands of insufficiently raised consciousness (i.e., the psychopaths who are in control) who use it for their own selfish and nefarious purposes. I believe that once the masses wake up to the fact that they've been duped and enslaved for centuries that a serious paradigm shift will occur that will hopefully reduce, if not eliminate, the dependency on governments to "protect us" and we will finally learn to truly work together and share all the fruits of our labors so we can all live well and in peace and harmony.

Let us not forget that those in control are human too (at least some of them) and they have dealt with the "truth" and advanced technologies--albeit, mostly for their benefit--so the rest of humanity can too.

[RMorgan]

RMorgan ... you are wrong ... there is no europeans and Indigenous people ... we are all humans. Europeans were just conquered by those that want to become "gods" (part machine or what ever) and were trained to be pets/slaves. Indigenous people were the lucky ones that didnt had these nonhumans to "train" them ...


It makes me sad to see fellow humans ... thinking of our race as nothing more that animals.

I will always think humans if left alone will create heaven on earth. We are just not acting as humans ... they have turned us into brainless chimps like the video above.


p.s. if you lose hope that there is a better future ... then why we even live? I find it pointless to just stay and wait to die cause nothing will change ... as Fred said.

Of course, we are humans, but this has nothing to do with the fact that there are/were different human societies with different mindsets.

Mankind had the opportunity to experience lots of different social models, some good, some bad, but eventually, the model which used fear and death as domination tactics ended up winning the race so far.

Anyway, mate, I have no reasons to believe that something, or someone else did it to ourselves. We did it; We humans, did it all. Don´t underestimate us.

We are the most dangerous animal in this planet, because we can, by choice and freewill, be good or bad, and our current society is a reflection of the decisions made by the bad kind.

I have no doubt that, if we had the technology with our current social mindset, we would be all over the universe, killing and enslaving ETs all across the galaxies...And it would be the same thing, all over again...

People will angrily protest against intergalactic slavery and exploitation of natural resources, on internet forums like this, while sited in their super comfortable Martian wooden chair, eating Venusian ET hamburger, riding their cars fueled with fuel stolen from Jupiter and texting with their brand new cellphone powered with Iridium mined by Plutonian slaves.

Just like we´re all doing here...Protesting and complaining about the system, while, at the same time, enjoying and loving everything the system provides us...It´s social level Stockholm syndrome but worse, because the system is our kidnapper, but we are the system, so were are caught in a situation where we are both kidnapper and hostage, simultaneously, where there´s no possible win win outcome. If we choose the path of the system, we lose freedom; If we choose the path of freedom, we lose the comforts and conveniences that the system provides us.

Either way, the absolute point of no return is approaching, so very soon we will be forced to make a choice.

So, saying that we would achieve freedom by improving the system with free energy, is the same thing as trying to achieve freedom by giving the kidnapper a bigger gun.

[christian]

As much of a fan of the Nikola Tesla types as I am, I still feel the free energy solution is as big of a trap as any of the others.

The prospect of free energy can be many things, depending on the observer... You can focus on it in a way where you give away your own power and see it as the savior... Or you can see it like a dangling carrot, inspiring and motivating you to help the overall development of things, so that new energy technologies may emerge naturally.

I agree with you that humanity's attitude and conduct in general is the key determining factor, everything else revolves around that. Having a powerful technology in the hands of irresponsible people is indeed a recipe for disaster. Unfortunatetly, I figure that has already happened in many ways...

[Freed Fox]

Just like we´re all doing here...Protesting and complaining about the system, while, at the same time, enjoying and loving everything the system provides us...It´s social level Stockholm syndrome but worse, because the system is our kidnapper, but we are the system, so were are caught in a situation where we are both kidnapper and hostage, simultaneously, where there´s no possible win win outcome. If we choose the path of the system, we lose freedom; If we choose the path of freedom, we lose the comforts and conveniences that the system provides us.

Either way, the absolute point of no return is approaching, so very soon we will be forced to make a choice.


This seems to be where one of the biggest underlying fundamental debates lies, between us here on Avalon.

'Everything in its right place' vs. 'the highway to hell'

Do we draw a line or let it be?

I recognize the contradiction between believing in the good of humanity and the public, while the contrary seems to be demonstrated by those in control, all throughout history.

Then, of course, the paradox which arises when one wishes to stand up against these powers and bring about change, without themselves becoming a killer, manipulator, or controller.

A conundrum, and clearly not a simple matter...

[GarethBKK]

Yes, we do like to cling to ideas of salvation, free-energy being one of the latest.

We have the ability but not the will to end hunger. If humanity has yet to evolve to the point where we don't let people starve to death, what hope should we have for a form of energy utilization? Is it that people see a new form of cheap energy utilization as the catalyst for a paradigm shift, where we finally have the compassion to end conflict and greed? Is this realistic? Fred's notion that we need to look inside for the catalyst of a paradigm shift is the one that has been taught for thousands of years and remains true.

[RMorgan]

Just like we´re all doing here...Protesting and complaining about the system, while, at the same time, enjoying and loving everything the system provides us...It´s social level Stockholm syndrome but worse, because the system is our kidnapper, but we are the system, so were are caught in a situation where we are both kidnapper and hostage, simultaneously, where there´s no possible win win outcome. If we choose the path of the system, we lose freedom; If we choose the path of freedom, we lose the comforts and conveniences that the system provides us.

Either way, the absolute point of no return is approaching, so very soon we will be forced to make a choice.


This seems to be where one of the biggest underlying fundamental debates lies, between us here on Avalon.

'Everything in its right place' vs. 'the highway to hell'

Do we draw a line or let it be?

I recognize the contradiction between believing in the good of humanity and the public, while the contrary seems to be demonstrated by those in control, all throughout history.

Then, of course, the paradox which arises when one wishes to stand up against these powers and bring about change, without themselves becoming a killer, manipulator, or controller.

A conundrum, and clearly not a simple matter...

Man...Believe me; I have thought a lot about these matters. Maybe more than I should, actually.

My current conclusion is that, if mankind wants to be free, we need to stop being spoiled babies and learn to live like men was supposed to live, free and independent.

In order for this to happen, we need to definitively get rid of our babysitter, which is the system, which provides us comforts, conveniences, food, water and everything else, making us into lazy conformists.

We need to get rid of the system, but our current society can´t work out of the system, so we need to get rid of society as we know it.

Contrary to what most people believe, I don´t think that there´s a way to make a smooth transition. We have to go cold turkey from all useless luxuries that our current society provides us.

A few nukes blown up all over the world, about 50 miles above the ground, calibrated to achieve the maximum EMP impact would do the job, without usual nuclear collateral effects, such as fallout. It would just fry the whole grid. Or maybe a big enough solar storm will eventually do it on its own due time.

Even if that happens, and we have the opportunity start everything from scratch, there´s a big risk that we will mess it up all over again.

I know it sounds too apocalyptic, but I can´t envision how things would change for us without a major collapse of society.

I´m just being grounded here. I know some people think that humans will ascend magically, or that ETs will come down here to bring order to this chaos, or that Earth itself will move to another dimension. I don´t believe that stuff.

The way things are going, my perspectives for our general future are pretty dark.

As I said, I believe we will be forced to make a hard choice very soon, which is continuing to comply with the system and be slaves, or to get rid of the system in its entirety, with all its conveniences, and be free. Either way, there´s no easy choice.

Of course, there´s the slight possibility of some kind of Gandhi on steroids to appear and wake everyone up while there´s still time, being the catalyst of an unprecedented worldwide revolution, however, I wouldn´t bet my life on it.

[WhiteFeather]

The only way free energy is going to be exposed is when the home end user starts to use some grassroots ingenuity. Researching the web and creating a domain of knowing as Alex Collier states. With that it could spread from neighbor to neighbor resulting in a 99% global effect on this supression. And once the snowball starts to roll the end of supressed free energy will become a household item. Im sure of it. The government and the free energy mafia Aka Godzilla wont be able to stop the masses when we get on a roll. Just a thought.

[Freed Fox]

We need to get rid of the system, but our current society can´t work out of the system, so we need to get rid of society as we know it.

Contrary to what most people believe, I don´t think that there´s a way to make a smooth transition. We have to go cold turkey from all useless luxuries that our current society provides us.

I've considered this too, but as long as we're trying to remain grounded; you must be aware that many people will die if such a thing were to happen. I do mean many people. Would you be comfortable with being directly responsible for that?


A few nukes blown up all over the world, about 50 miles above the ground, calibrated to achieve the maximum EMP impact would do the job, without usual nuclear collateral effects, such as fallout. It would just fry the whole grid.

Is there any way to be certain of that? Do we have the necessary data to safely guarantee that there would be no long-term environmental effects? I ask in earnest because I have little knowledge of the ins and outs of nuclear fallout and the effects of massive spikes of radiation in the atmosphere. I know that nukes have been tested, but I don't think they've been deployed in such a way, so I find it difficult to believe that one can accurately predict the outcome with absolute certainty.


Even if that happens, and we have the opportunity start everything from scratch, there´s a big risk that we will mess it up all over again.


As several here have stated, the internal shift must take place for external solutions to be anything but band-aids. If we cannot solve this problem by other means, by more civilized means, then this paradigm will surely rise again.

I'm not entirely disagreeing here; I see the potential danger of inaction. I also frequently share that notion, that the whole infrastructure of the system needs to be upset in order for the real changes to happen. But if we don't maintain the higher aspects of our humanity, we risk becoming the enemy. I don't believe that these ethics are lofty. There should be room for this kind of solution. If there is not, then perhaps it's something that is not worth saving.

[CdnSirian]

Regards all above. I can't comment in scientific lingo - but can only refer to:
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/public.htm#introduction - read the relevant sections, and a different perspective appears, re FE. Take a trip over there.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

As much of a fan of the Nikola Tesla types as I am, I still feel the free energy solution is as big of a trap as any of the others. Why? Here's my reasons:

1) Any solution which takes us outside of ourselves for the answers is an age old, tried and true dead end road, and wide open to manipulation. The answer to every "problem" lays solely within each and every individual, and nowhere else.

2) It's putting the cart before the horse. Having that kind of power in the hands of insufficiently raised conscious awareness is a recipe for disaster, and very likely responsible for the destruction of many earlier civilazations much like ours today. Quite possibly even planets.

3) If/when humanity is ready, it will come naturally. Like the old saying goes: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

Not trying to rattle any chains here, just callin em like I see em. :)

Cheers All,
Fred

1. I agree Fred. My gut feeling is that the solutions to our problems is our evolution of consciousness and greatly increased out of the box thinking. Other objects of attention may be useful but some could be a trap because they distract.

2. I'll bet the ET control freaks already have free energy. Maybe the shadow governments as well.

3. You are probably right. It is not easy for me with my impatient attitude to accept that. But it may be correct that everything in the universe is subject to change and everything is right on schedule.

[Maunagarjana]

Fred,

I can appreciate where you are coming from in this post. If I may, my .02 on the matter.

"Free" energy is a bit of a misnomer. The concept of free energy is in and of itself a fallacy. It is my understanding that the energy comes from somewhere, ala "matter is neither created, nor destroyed". Where I believe our misunderstandings come from about energy being free is that we are unable to measure from where (and I think it's fair to say "when") this energetic sustenance is coming. Since we can only measure spatially, we believe it to be free. I have a very VERY smart friend who knows a lot about this kind of thing. Here's a small excerpt from a conversation we had recently:


Particles can be charged or uncharged (conventional science only recognizes the charged state). The uncharged electron, which is the true anti-particle (not the positron) is the source of electric current, appearing as a "hole" because it has its existence in coordinate time, where we can't measure structure. Since atoms are temporal displacements, and the electron is a spatial displacement, the relationship of space/time constitutes motion, so uncharged electrons can freely move through atomic structure as current. A conventional, charged electron has its displacement in time, just like the atom, and the relation of time/time is NOT motion, so charged electrons cannot flow between atoms, but must exist outside the atomic structure, in the vacuum of space (vacuum of space/time of charged electron IS motion). It is actually pretty simple, once you understand the space/time relationships.

I think we need to consider the temporal aspect of energy as well as the spatial. Unfortunately, mainstream science does not allow for this interpretation. I am of the opinion that e=mc2 is a good way to measure energy in the spatial realm but it does not take into account what accessing this "free" energy does in the temporal realm, which by the way is where a lot of the nasty beings that seek to control this planet naturally reside.

Alas, it is just another type of technology. And technology can be used for good or bad. But if our spirituality does not rise congruently with the technologies we seek to use, there will always be the potential for major disaster. Round and round we go...


Not sure I understand it all, but interesting anyway. But what you say about "free" energy affecting the temporal realm reminds me of what George LoBuono says in his book "Alien Mind: A Primer" about how ETs have told him in his telepathic communications with him that overuse of "free energy", in particular what he calls "negative energy", accelerates the rate of aging of star systems or even an entire galaxy, and that these things are a concern "out there". Just something to think about. Nothing is ever truly without it's consequences, so it wouldn't surprise me if this turns out to be true.

[Kryztian]

About a year ago, I listened to Sterling D. Allan, publisher of peswiki.com, a publication about various attempts world wide to create free energy. He said he thought that free energy was six months away from becoming a reality. Then he stated that 10 years ago, he thought free energy was 2 years away. I guess at that rate, in 20 years, free energy will be just 15 minutes away from realization.

Waiting for free energy is a bit like waiting for the Messiah. He (or she) could arrive at any moment, or it might not be for thousands of years. In the meantime, let's try to make sensible plans for our future with the technology we know we will have.

[Carmody]

Fred, I think you are going to get a roasting for this.

You've touched a nerve I touched a year or so ago on the main free energy thread here.

I'm shocked by how powerfully I was swiped right out of the discussion for daring to say that the creation of "free" energy would be additive and that something else has to balance that.

If us crazy apes got a hold of "free" energy, we'd seriously over heat the situation in no time. Well, that was my entry point into the discussion. Instead of getting responses that reasoned with my thinking, I was effectively told I wasn't up to sitting with the big boys to talk about it.

It felt alarmingly like being zapped by an ism that's got power behind it. I've felt it also with the man made climate change lobby.

Whenever something as overwhelmingly defensive as that hits me between the eyes, I'm outta there.

The bunker mentality is part of the problem.

Some people have the internet and can go to the 'warez' sites and get free movies, software, and music. they go there and down load it ALL. As much as they can. Everything.

It might be free energy but it is not 'infinite resources'. Resources could be exhausted in no time.

The method to manipulate energy into existence in a way that we currently understand...will come from the vacuum, but it may also disturb the local space/time envelope and cause serious problems.

Then we get into the 'what if?' curiosity aspect of it, where some fool tries something out as they were 'curious'. There is a tale told by Joseph Farrell in the Nazi bell book where the Nazi's made a xerum 525 device the size of a hand grenade and it was just about as easy to operate as the same. It wiped out an entire large camp - it completely flattened it.

How do you get an entire race past it's major psychological barriers, in one shot?

You want free energy, pay the price. Clear your head out, completely. No time like the present....

:)

regarding the above, about the abuse of free energy, it is entirely possible. The universe of space/time comes from the integration of dimensional fields. Draining that might lead to some form of a mess.

The best thing to do be doing is to raise the self.... so these things are no longer of any concern. Clear of mind and body....so the questions and answers can be looked at clearly.

I talk about free energy and similar dimensional aspects as I'm trying to gently 'push the pile forward'.

[Hughe]

About a year ago, I listened to Sterling D. Allan, publisher of peswiki.com, a publication about various attempts world wide to create free energy. He said he thought that free energy was six months away from becoming a reality. Then he stated that 10 years ago, he thought free energy was 2 years away. I guess at that rate, in 20 years, free energy will be just 15 minutes away from realization.

Waiting for free energy is a bit like waiting for the Messiah. He (or she) could arrive at any moment, but that might also be in thousands of years. In the meantime, let's try to make sensible plans for our future with the technology we know we will have.

You are probably right. Without doing something by oneself, just waiting is feeders typical actions. A good analogy is there are two individuals. One believe in miracle but the individual does everything under one's power and ask some help. The other individual believe in miracle also and just keep praying "Save me please!" all the time. Look seriously around how the whole society screwed in big time. People are creating manufactured heroes, savers, and leaders every day. They hardly get their hand dirty to fix a thing under their power. As long as they will look for savers, the best scenario I can think of is peaceful rulers will take over the Earth one day. I mean "peaceful rulers."

I've been seeing common denominator among people, which is the slavery factor, copy cat attitude. What it is most people somehow can't exercise own free thinking. To professionals, engineers, Mr. Eisenstein is considered the God. Even though they have intelligence to understand alternative theories or free energy technologies, they simply can't read single page of scientific paper or a book written by other scientists. Why is that?

They are good at repeating, tweaking established theories over and over like copy cats. In their mind alternative is impossible because old, used laws of physics have been worked even though it created big problems. However they simply don't bother because they believe in they are not decision makers. How could brilliant scientists work for crackpot, monstrous political leaders in first place? Smart slaves.

Many famed scientists are slaves of the system. True intelligence comes from self awareness and preservation of own survival. Millions of brains behind this modern destructive civilization are indeed perfect slaves. Slaves never do out of box thinking. They have lack of dreams and imaginations. Why is that? I don't know.

Only hope I see is that the cycle of new paradigm in science gets shorter.
It took 1,500 years before Galileo smashed the flawed cosmology - Sun evolves around the Earth.
It took few hundred years Newton's laws of physics flawed by scientists.
It took few decades that Einstein's theory of Relativity is flawed by the contemporary scientists at that time. But TPTB successfully removed them from general public including mainstream scientific community for good 100 years.

It's laughable to hear people say Free Energy is impossible. Why because Permaculture does exact properties of FE technologies compared to conventional agriculture. Separation humans from nature. Farmers are busy to destroy nature for food production blindly. They have been such absurd farming thousands years in globally. That's one of reason why all the great civilizations disappeared. Rise and fall of civilizations through history.

Then I want to ask for one question. "How did bicycle mechanics - the Wright brothers - invented motorized airplane? What were all those scientists, engineers, and professors doing with their supreme intelligence back then?" Kids can build a airplane that flies like a bird in sky nowadays.

Memorizing laws in text books leads to dead end. Free Energy technologies would bring mighty power to every individual? This is a logic error. I'm sorry to say this. Anything that has huge destructive power demands a lot of time and energy to build a container. Because it's work against the Nature. How about "Black hole which has infinite density actually does exist in space?" I would say one out of millions probably say "I don't think so." All the rest believe in Black holes exist a lot in space. Why? Because mainstream scientists say so based on flawed theory of Relativity by Mr. Einstein.

Infinity is man-made concept. Number zero is the same. Zero or infinity do not exist in physical world we live in. Most math teachers will be embarrassed if a kid ask the property of number zero seriously. "Why multiplying ten apples to zero becomes nothing? I don't understand. Show me zero please." Dividing any number by zero is undefined in mathematics. It creates pseudo entity, infinite size of number. (Advanced mathematics has constructed number theories. It's kind of metaphysics) I cut is short here.

So why do we have to follow and limit ourselves closed paradigm which only put us into troubles? Suppose FE technologies are embraced in society, moneyless life becomes feasible.

[Anchor]

I think the trap is subtle.

We have already got free energy, how do you think we stay alive?

Gaia is orbiting a fusion reactor!

What we don't have is access to sufficient energy to royally mess things up more than they are already and when such technology appears it is conveniently neutered.

The issue is COMMERCE.

Free would not even be a relevant concept if it were not for the fact that WE TOLERATE the commercial system and the ways of the elite. Those that could do something about this are those that benefit from it (rather clever that) so we maintain status quo at the moment.

[Sirius White]

Also.

Free energy isn't free. What I mean by this is zero point or vacuum energetics.

On the otherhand the time is ripe for at least more efficient forms of energy. The kind that can recycle and last longer than the crap we have today and at far cheaper prices.

[D-Day]

who needs free energy??

we already have reality tv, Big Mac's, Friday night football, and Kim Kardashian!!

what more could a person want?

*click*

ok, now back to season 27 of 'Celebrity Survivor' ;)

[Fred Steeves]

Action vs. Inaction. Like everything else, there's that sweet spot right in the middle. What is a martial arts master "doing" when he stands stationary, and renders himself immovable by his students? Is that action, or inaction? What is the energy that keeps our hearts beating and our bodies warm, even in sleep? Where does that come from? How is it that no matter how ancient, sophisticated, and suffocating our programming is, that there are still little flickering lights of imagination and independence sprinkled all across this fair planet? It's like a heart that refuses to totally quit beating.

There are two driving powers in the universe, Force and Allowance. Force is a pittance when compared to Allowance, no matter how mighty it may appear. Do we need to force our heart to beat, or simply allow it to do it's thing? We humans have been operating with "their mind" for so long, we don't even know what it is to be a real natural human any more.

When I speak of "going within" for our answers, that's what I'm getting at. Going within to begin to remember what we really are, what we have lost, and to Allow the reappearance of that natural human. The human that inherently knows how to Allow itself to be a Creator once more.

Force cannot hinder a Creator, only a Creator can. And Force knows it...

[SilentFeathers]

Fred, the title of your thread is quite revealing (and spot on).

"Free Energy", the thought of it, the term itself is nothing but a huge distraction, more importantly, a HUGE deception. What does it really mean?

Free energy is a trap....

In my opinion, with the current systems in place, there is no such thing as "free energy"...there will be a price tag on it no matter what definition you come up with for it.

The Sun is free energy, but we must buy solar panels to power our home with it (that is if the government allows you to).

Oil is free energy, but that has been high-jacked to and price tagged.

Thinking for yourself is free energy, but even that has a price on it....

IMO: the term "free energy" is just another new age term and deception like "global warming" is.....

With a species basing is existence on currency systems, nothing is free....

[RMorgan]

The only way free energy is going to be exposed is when the home end user starts to use some grassroots ingenuity. Researching the web and creating a domain of knowing as Alex Collier states. With that it could spread from neighbor to neighbor resulting in a 99% global effect on this supression. And once the snowball starts to roll the end of supressed free energy will become a household item. Im sure of it. The government and the free energy mafia Aka Godzilla wont be able to stop the masses when we get on a roll. Just a thought.


Hey my friend,

Well, the problem is that, while lots of people think like you, that free energy will be incredibly beneficial for the human race, some other people have wet dreams about the kind of weapons such technology can create and how they could conquer the world with them.





We need to get rid of the system, but our current society can´t work out of the system, so we need to get rid of society as we know it.

Contrary to what most people believe, I don´t think that there´s a way to make a smooth transition. We have to go cold turkey from all useless luxuries that our current society provides us.

I've considered this too, but as long as we're trying to remain grounded; you must be aware that many people will die if such a thing were to happen. I do mean many people. Would you be comfortable with being directly responsible for that?


A few nukes blown up all over the world, about 50 miles above the ground, calibrated to achieve the maximum EMP impact would do the job, without usual nuclear collateral effects, such as fallout. It would just fry the whole grid.

Is there any way to be certain of that? Do we have the necessary data to safely guarantee that there would be no long-term environmental effects? I ask in earnest because I have little knowledge of the ins and outs of nuclear fallout and the effects of massive spikes of radiation in the atmosphere. I know that nukes have been tested, but I don't think they've been deployed in such a way, so I find it difficult to believe that one can accurately predict the outcome with absolute certainty.


Even if that happens, and we have the opportunity start everything from scratch, there´s a big risk that we will mess it up all over again.


As several here have stated, the internal shift must take place for external solutions to be anything but band-aids. If we cannot solve this problem by other means, by more civilized means, then this paradigm will surely rise again.

I'm not entirely disagreeing here; I see the potential danger of inaction. I also frequently share that notion, that the whole infrastructure of the system needs to be upset in order for the real changes to happen. But if we don't maintain the higher aspects of our humanity, we risk becoming the enemy. I don't believe that these ethics are lofty. There should be room for this kind of solution. If there is not, then perhaps it's something that is not worth saving.



I've considered this too, but as long as we're trying to remain grounded; you must be aware that many people will die if such a thing were to happen. I do mean many people. Would you be comfortable with being directly responsible for that?

Well, my friend, either way we´re all directly responsible for this mess, and either way lots of people will die and suffer. So, I´d rather be responsible for people dying as freeman than be responsible for people dying as slaves. Anyway, I told you that there are no easy choices. Whatever happens, we´ll be responsible for it.


Is there any way to be certain of that? Do we have the necessary data to safely guarantee that there would be no long-term environmental effects? I ask in earnest because I have little knowledge of the ins and outs of nuclear fallout and the effects of massive spikes of radiation in the atmosphere. I know that nukes have been tested, but I don't think they've been deployed in such a way, so I find it difficult to believe that one can accurately predict the outcome with absolute certainty.

Sure. There was a lot of experimentation with it in the past and lots of well documented studies about it. A high-altitude nuclear detonation produces an immediate flux of gamma rays from the nuclear reactions within the device. These photons in turn produce high energy free electrons by Compton (Compton effect) scattering at altitudes between (roughly) 20 and 40 km. These electrons are then trapped in the Earth´s magnetic field, giving rise to an oscillating electric current. This current is asymmetric in general and gives rise to a rapidly rising radiated electromagnetic field called an electromagnetic pulse (EMP). Because the electrons are trapped essentially simultaneously, a very large electromagnetic source radiates coherently.

Just for you to have an idea, the pulse can easily span continent-sized areas, and this radiation can affect systems on land, sea, and air. A large device detonated at 50 miles over Kansas would affect the whole CONUS.

This is how fragile this dream is. People keep worrying about terrorists exploding subways or airplanes, while all they need is to put their hands in one well calibrated nuke to send the whole USA back to the Dark Ages for decades.


As several here have stated, the internal shift must take place for external solutions to be anything but band-aids. If we cannot solve this problem by other means, by more civilized means, then this paradigm will surely rise again.

I'm not entirely disagreeing here; I see the potential danger of inaction. I also frequently share that notion, that the whole infrastructure of the system needs to be upset in order for the real changes to happen. But if we don't maintain the higher aspects of our humanity, we risk becoming the enemy. I don't believe that these ethics are lofty. There should be room for this kind of solution. If there is not, then perhaps it's something that is not worth saving.

Sure, we must change our culture, our most basic philosophies, to evolve into a better race. We must change consciousness.

No wonder why the good ETs out there don´t come down here and hand us their technology. They probably know we aren´t mature enough to handle it.

Just look what we did regarding atomic energy...

Anyway, our judgment towards our race is always extremely biased, of course; We think we deserve to be saved.

However, what if there´s someone/something out there, looking to us right now, observing us for centuries? Judging by our very dark history and by the current state of our societies, do you think an outsider, with no emotional connection to us, would think we deserve to be saved?

Raf.

[Wind]

Crystals are a great source of energy. The ancients knew how to use them, but unfortunately they also later on used them as powerful weapons. I guess any thing can be used both for good and bad. Humans haven't even been able to use nuclear power well.

With great power comes great responsibility.

[Jean-Luc]

As much of a fan of the Nikola Tesla types as I am, I still feel the free energy solution is as big of a trap as any of the others. Why? Here's my reasons:

1) Any solution which takes us outside of ourselves for the answers is an age old, tried and true dead end road, and wide open to manipulation. The answer to every "problem" lays solely within each and every individual, and nowhere else.

2) It's putting the cart before the horse. Having that kind of power in the hands of insufficiently raised conscious awareness is a recipe for disaster, and very likely responsible for the destruction of many earlier civilazations much like ours today. Quite possibly even planets.

3) If/when humanity is ready, it will come naturally. Like the old saying goes: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

Not trying to rattle any chains here, just callin em like I see em. :)

Cheers All,
Fred

I get you points Fred, and some are valid, at least to an extent.

Free (solar) energy for those living in places where the sun is generous has not turned into a total cataclysm so far.

Today, given the standpoint that humanity is by all means far from any sort of responsible behavior -- and I can't see any foreseeable future when a significant improvement would happen on a large scale -- we should continue our path with half baked / marginal / hypocritical solutions to reduce our energy consumption and environmental footprint, while at the same time projects for new nuclear plants, new coal plants, and of course the latest cash cow, shale gas, are exploding everywhere around the world. Of course we shouldn't, but that's what in reality is happening, despite all the green washing bla bla.

One thing is for sure: there is no easy path to get ourselves out of this mess.

But I don't think the "wait & see & hope" route is a better one than the "freedom energy" one (a better term than free energy, IMO).

In any case, I foresee "freedom energy" will inevitably start coming out, whether we want it or not, even though it might continue to go unnoticed for perhaps another decade on wide scale.

Perhaps the time needed for education purposes (even if I am not over optimistic here).

Given what we learn though Dr Robert Duncan http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56002-Must-Read-The-Matrix-Deciphered-by-Dr-Robert-Duncan&p=640597#post640597 or Dr John Hall on electromagnetic harassment as some form of ultimate nightmare and weaponery, I see "freedom energy" as being a much, much smaller threat in that respect.

Quite the contrary perhaps. If you're are freed from "pedaling like mad" to pay for your shamefully high energy bills, you may turn up have more time to check on what's really going on above your head.

And why not start learning the clarinet and doing other interesting things in life. :)

[Debra]

As much of a fan of the Nikola Tesla types as I am, I still feel the free energy solution is as big of a trap as any of the others. Why? Here's my reasons:

1) Any solution which takes us outside of ourselves for the answers is an age old, tried and true dead end road, and wide open to manipulation. The answer to every "problem" lays solely within each and every individual, and nowhere else.

2) It's putting the cart before the horse. Having that kind of power in the hands of insufficiently raised conscious awareness is a recipe for disaster, and very likely responsible for the destruction of many earlier civilazations much like ours today. Quite possibly even planets.

3) If/when humanity is ready, it will come naturally. Like the old saying goes: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

Not trying to rattle any chains here, just callin em like I see em. :)

Cheers All,
Fred


Great thread Fred.

Free energy is still like carbon credits, millions still have no idea. I am in that batch, even though I am aware of it and go down the road of looking for meaning and applications.

James Martinez and Bob Neveritt both consider this question: are people ready? From what they infer, FE is not just some nifty new time and money saving gadget.

But we got to start somewhere as individuals and as societies.

The train is rolling .. I think we just deal with it. Forget disclosure, it is already here. Maybe the journey through the land of FE will be the thing to really turn ourselves inside and out and see what is inside, how our power works and what it is capable of.


Zeb

[jagman]

while reading this thread, this scene kept popping into my mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15NnGZIBuM&feature=player_detailpage

[SilentFeathers]

German university student, Dennis Siegel, invented a device that captures electromagnetic fields like WIFI and radio waves and converts them to stored energy in batteries.

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/02/student-invents-device-that-charges.html

[Kano]

Fred,

I can appreciate where you are coming from in this post. If I may, my .02 on the matter.

"Free" energy is a bit of a misnomer. The concept of free energy is in and of itself a fallacy. It is my understanding that the energy comes from somewhere, ala "matter is neither created, nor destroyed". Where I believe our misunderstandings come from about energy being free is that we are unable to measure from where (and I think it's fair to say "when") this energetic sustenance is coming. Since we can only measure spatially, we believe it to be free. I have a very VERY smart friend who knows a lot about this kind of thing. Here's a small excerpt from a conversation we had recently:


Particles can be charged or uncharged (conventional science only recognizes the charged state). The uncharged electron, which is the true anti-particle (not the positron) is the source of electric current, appearing as a "hole" because it has its existence in coordinate time, where we can't measure structure. Since atoms are temporal displacements, and the electron is a spatial displacement, the relationship of space/time constitutes motion, so uncharged electrons can freely move through atomic structure as current. A conventional, charged electron has its displacement in time, just like the atom, and the relation of time/time is NOT motion, so charged electrons cannot flow between atoms, but must exist outside the atomic structure, in the vacuum of space (vacuum of space/time of charged electron IS motion). It is actually pretty simple, once you understand the space/time relationships.

I think we need to consider the temporal aspect of energy as well as the spatial. Unfortunately, mainstream science does not allow for this interpretation. I am of the opinion that e=mc2 is a good way to measure energy in the spatial realm but it does not take into account what accessing this "free" energy does in the temporal realm, which by the way is where a lot of the nasty beings that seek to control this planet naturally reside.

Alas, it is just another type of technology. And technology can be used for good or bad. But if our spirituality does not rise congruently with the technologies we seek to use, there will always be the potential for major disaster. Round and round we go...


Not sure I understand it all, but interesting anyway. But what you say about "free" energy affecting the temporal realm reminds me of what George LoBuono says in his book "Alien Mind: A Primer" about how ETs have told him in his telepathic communications with him that overuse of "free energy", in particular what he calls "negative energy", accelerates the rate of aging of star systems or even an entire galaxy, and that these things are a concern "out there". Just something to think about. Nothing is ever truly without it's consequences, so it wouldn't surprise me if this turns out to be true.

Not heard of George LuBuono but I will check him out. He is essentially right on target with what my understanding of the effects of "free" energy are. You are right, nothing is ever truly without its consequences. For me, it's counter-intuitive to believe otherwise.

[norman]

Fred, I think you are going to get a roasting for this.

You've touched a nerve I touched a year or so ago on the main free energy thread here.

I'm shocked by how powerfully I was swiped right out of the discussion for daring to say that the creation of "free" energy would be additive and that something else has to balance that.

If us crazy apes got a hold of "free" energy, we'd seriously over heat the situation in no time. Well, that was my entry point into the discussion. Instead of getting responses that reasoned with my thinking, I was effectively told I wasn't up to sitting with the big boys to talk about it.

It felt alarmingly like being zapped by an ism that's got power behind it. I've felt it also with the man made climate change lobby.

Whenever something as overwhelmingly defensive as that hits me between the eyes, I'm outta there.

Hmm so we are apes? I thought we were sentient beings that were one with the creator ...

weird i always thought that humans were born pure and then got twisted by the "training" we had in order to become members of this sick society.

I prefer i get us "apes" to have the free will to select death or evolution ... that just wait to die as cattle like we are nowdays.

I think we are both probably saying the same thing, other than the fact I seem to see sentience in animals a little more clearly than I see it in the average human.


Last time I checked, apes were sentient beings, at one with their creator and have a free will.

Even cattle are sentient beings.

It's something about humans that's uniquely arrogant about how sentient we are, despite the evidence under our noses. Animals don't go around selfishly exploiting others mental abilities to be tricked and hooked into something they don't want or need.

As far off topic as this couple of posts have drifted, it comes right slam back on topic here.

Free energy ( errr... some unique new trick to source it - or whatever ), will only amplify human effort. It won't correct it.

[norman]

........The method to manipulate energy into existence in a way that we currently understand...will come from the vacuum, but it may also disturb the local space/time envelope and cause serious problems.............








My gut instinct tells me there's no "may" about it.

Where have I seen this scenario before?

Us humans, oh dear, we have an astonishing track record for gullibility.

Nuclear power, nitrogen forced mono culture, Thalidomide, Antibiotics, Vaccines, Dolly the crippled Sheep, "A computer in every home", ................ I could go on and on.

So, a race of sharp operating ET's turn up and they have this cool technology. We not only take the ETs at face value but we assume that what they've done technologically is immune to the obvious errors we have consistently made with our technological adventures. This alien technology is so far beyond where we think we are up to that it's still "magic", and as such, is a kind of cred' currency among the futurists.

Always there is a cool reason why it's a good idea, always there's a debt to hindsight and a price that amounts to the commitments of making decisions based on whaw factor alone. It slowly bankrupts humanity, and the 'solution' is to bail out the race by shedding the losers to minimise the cost/effect of error through scale rather than correction.

The general population would welcome it with open arms as they always do with everything.

We've all seen the relationship between the energy tyrants and the 'activists'. How the activism feeds the next moves of the energy tyrants, often without most of them even understanding that's what they are doing.

That relationship is all the more dangerous with the free energy issue because the passion of the activists tracks right into the false urgency of the fake agenda riddled environmentalism ( not that the environment isn't in a real crisis ). One seems to be the same as the other, to the average Joe on his ass in a TV stupor. The worst case scenario is that Average Joe is accidentally right. The best case scenario is that a new bunch of smart arses are going build a pile and sit on it.

I'll not pretend I've got my head around a free energy 'scam' yet, I've definitely not. But, I'll take a lot of convincing that there isn't a scam being played with it at some level. It's got the same MO, same smell, same taste, same geeky naivety, too.

My gut tells me there's no such thing as a free lunch, not even our darling Universe 'loves us' that much.

That there are space cowboys out and about pretending there's a free lunch comes as no surprise to me though.

Same old, same old.

[Dennis Leahy]

This thread's "energy", harnessed, is the antithesis of Wade Frazier's work. I cannot do justice to the thousands and thousands of words that Wade has poured forth on the subject, after decades of analysis and from a comprehensive perspective including that rare glimpse of an insider to the mileau of "free energy" and a scientific overview of resources, anthropology, and the current extremely rapid decline in the viability (for all species - not just humans) of the ecosphere.

I can kill you with a rock, with a club, or with fire. I don't need high-tech weapons to kill. Every single person on this planet could, if they had the nefarious intent, be a mass murderer too (still using relatively low-tech weapons.) Rocks don't kill people; people throwing rocks kill people.

Playing "ever the optimist" and believing "something will happen that will turn it all around, make it all better" is naive and wishful - and probably lazy and ignorant. A mass extinction of humanity caused by ecocidal hubris isn't just a mass extinction of humanity: by the time we have truly gone too far, we will have eliminated the chance of life for half, hell, maybe 90% of all species on the planet. "Free energy" probably is not even optional if we are to save a few hundred thousand species already swirling the drain along with us.

Unless you're one of the deluded inbreds that thinks life in an underground city means you'll pop back out to a miraculously self-healed green Earth in a few years after entombment, you should recognize that the cessation of burning fossil fuel is the key to survival, yes, survival, of most life forms on Earth. "Wait and see" is an ignorant approach as well as a death sentence. For those afraid that the next technology with "be the ruin of us all" (wonder how many times that has been proclaimed in the last 500 years), I have to say "pick yer timeline": you, (or at the furthest, maybe 5 to 7 generations from now) and most life forms are going to die from human-induced ecocide, or we will embrace the only technology that has a chance to bring us all back from the brink. 5 to 7 generations may itself be ridiculously wishful thinking. Once the plankton dies, there will be an extinction event on Earth, possibly of unprecedented proportions.

By all means, in the meantime, do everything you can to promote the highest-tech solar arrays, geothermal, biofuels from waste, carbon sequestration technologies like biochar... but please do not piss in the punchbowl that is the promise of "free energy" by creating and inducing fear whenever "free energy" is mentioned.

We have an incredible resource right here at Avalon that is obviously being ignored by some. Read Wade Frazier's work! Fear is a trained response, and has been used against us, as a control tool. It is now a knee-jerk reaction within us, like the caged animal afraid to leave its opened cage. Each one of us is responsible for re-training ourselves. (Maybe that's what "ascension" really is: freedom from fear!) There is a light-year of difference between caution and fear. We have to LEAD a free-energy revolution, not lead the torch and pitchfork mob against it!

Dennis

[AutumnW]

Access to free energy has to be inversely proportional to our desire for it. Otherwise we're not learning anything here. Free energy means less restraint. Less restraint means complete environmental destruction. Imagine how much more fish a trawler could catch if it ran for free? Just because free energy reduces carbon footprint doesn't mean it would reduce over all human footprint on this poor planet.

This is not so much fear as caution and understanding human nature as it exists today.

[norman]

yea, but here's the kicker, Dennis.

What you ( and Wade ) are saying is, fear is an intellectual phenomenon.

I can tell you from first hand experience that fear is not that at all. Fear is when your legs buckle uncontrollably and your sphincter can't stay tight long enough to get you cleanly through another pulse of your blood.

It's a strange mischief to be using the fear word as Wade uses it.

And, if you were looking for an idea of the mind that most closely resembles real fear, it would be the passionate proclamation that 'not-to-panic' is ecocide and we must run like hell to destroy everything we know and throw up something brand new or we are all dead within a couple of generations.

I can't decide if the enemy is the cabal who could possibly be rounded up and got rid of, or ...

===

[ Mod-edit: I deleted the last couple of sentences of your post. You insulted a fellow member of the forum, Wade Frazier. Don't do that. - Paul. ]

[Dennis Leahy]

yea, but here's the kicker, Dennis.

What you ( and Wade ) are saying is, fear is an intellectual phenomenon.

I can tell you from first hand experience that fear is not that at all. Fear is when your legs buckle uncontrollably and your sphincter can't stay tight long enough to get you cleanly through another pulse of your blood.

It's a strange mischief to be using the fear word as Wade uses it.

And, if you were looking for an idea of the mind that most closely resembles real fear, it would be the passionate proclamation that 'not-to-panic' is ecocide and we must run like hell to destroy everything we know and throw up something brand new or we are all dead within a couple of generations.

I can't decide if the enemy is the cabal who could possibly be rounded up and got rid of, or ...I'll just comment that my jaw has dropped with your post. Don't blame Wade, it's me, I'm the monster, I'm the one working for the cabal. I thought I could trick you all into forcing the oil companies out of business by providing unmetered, non-polluting, clean energy, but you're too sharp. You caught me. You even realized that the fear you're feeling is reverse-psychology. Damn! You're good. We (me and the cabal) wanted to alter space-time and feast on your deep-fried souls. But, you caught me fair and square. I surrender.

Full confession: Everything is going to be just fine, no need to change any behavior. Peak oil is a lie, there are septillions of cubic hectares of oil we've been hiding from you. We forced the news media we own to show pictures of some isolated spots in rainforests and coral reefs to make it seem like there is a problem, lied about plankton die-off, made-up the stories of acid rain and desertification. The Earth is in great shape, the extinction rate is the lowest in history (turns out burning fossil fuels is actually good for life.) Damn it, we wanted you to burn each other up with death rays made from free energy generator spare parts, so you would reduce the population. I guess we'll have to think of another way to fool you into killing yourselves (contrary to popular myth, we really can't stomach killing people - which is why we need you to do it.)

Dennis

[norman]

Hehe, with a black and white image like that in your mind, there's only one way then.....

Damn, I knew this had to be really simple, if I could only chant my way up into a state of understanding about it.

There I was thinking I was being lied to. Lies from the ones who say "let them eat cake", lies from the ones who don't want me to have any cake at all and lies from the ones who want to have their cake and eat it.

So, this free energy is so that we can carry on living as we do now, but with 'non polluting' energy, yea?

That's right smack dab back into the additive situation again, and a serious case of denial, if so.


Edit:

So the science is all settled?

Carbon release is primary, and temperature rise is secondary?

Our lifestyles are dramatically changing the 'climate' all of the solar system?

Whaw, that secret space program must have been up to a hell of a lot more than we thought.

Nahh, sorry, I ain't buying it just like that.

Like the Thrive movie, it's all far too conveniently "global", at a far too convenient moment. As they hammer everything about national identity from the economies to perverts- at- the- top scandals, there they are, the 'alternative' gurus ready to soak up the disenchanted and show them a whole new "way" that's going to be a global solution to the mess nations created.

Climb aboard folks, welcome to the new world order.

I may have to go along with it for a while, but they ain't fooling me it's anything other than what it is.

[Carmody]

There are literally thousands of people ready to rush in and help you get and use 'free energy'. they just don't want to get shot in the ensuing mess if you don't step in and risk yourself as well.

Part of the problem is that you don't really believe that it is real.

Part of the problem is that the deeper parts of your unconscious mind are run by your body and your fears would be injected into the situation and cause you to disbelieve. As well, this part of you that is in control of your fears and body will have to die off, and bringing free energy to the table means that your mind will explode into a riot (of confusion), as part of it, the self lie part, the ego part, is going to begin dying off.

For free energy means: multiple dimensions, dimensional beings, time travel, astral self/travel, anti-gravity, ghosts, demonics, dimensional travel, psychic life, eternity, timelessness, remote viewing, and all of that stuff that is 'over there'.

Thus a good chunk of what people are, is against it happening, even if you stand in front of me fully convinced that you want it and need it and are going to get it. Everything else comes along for the ride, Looking glass, yellowbook, nazi bell, the whole shooting match comes along for the ride.

Everything in your life, everything in you, will be turned upside-down. How you attach to your emotions, how they are expressed, what you understand life and love to be, all of that will change. Everything.

Are you ready for that?

It's not just free energy, it is a trigger, a door, a Pandora's box of All. If you don't consciously know and understand what I said, the unconscious in you probably does. Everything changes for everyone, Everywhere.

Understand that it is an everything question. All you where, all you are, and all you'll ever be.

And the guy sitting in the pub, swearing and throwing his glass at the telly when his 'team' lost? He does not exist anymore. He's finished. He's done. Utterly, completely done.

We're talking about grinding the persona and existence and mental position of that person to absolute psychological dust. to a gibbering crying child, in all ways and areas and rebuilding them from near scratch. All of them. All billions of them. Individually. Is MR footballer ever going to be ready for that? Or is it going to have to be forced on him, as he'll try and kill himself and all around him, if that much change tries to get into his life?

How are you going to handle this?

[East Sun]

Everything would depend on who controlled this free energy. I'll bet 'they' have spent a lot of time figuring ways to use free energy to control the masses and have us think we are getting something for free. Even if 'we' had it 'they' would either buy it with humongous amounts of money, lie and trick us out of it or kill us to get it. Some things never change.

Before things really change 'they' would have to be out of the picture.

If a few really honest, concerned individuals could devise a way of keeping free energy safe and secret and giving it out to all in need of it and not ever to corps. or govt.
Practically impossible with the attitudes of the dominating greedy of today.
Just one more crazy dream but things are changing so we should be ready to change in all sorts of ways and use creativity in the mean time.

The greatest achievements have started with a dream. A real action dream put into force.

[Dennis Leahy]

Those of you who fear "free energy" generators: have you actually looked at the kind of stuff that has shown some promise?

Have you ever thought about the physical reality, the components and the physics of what these devices probably look like, what size they are, and how much energy they generate per second? Are you thinking "limitless" means that joe homeowner will be able to take his freezer-sized unit and make trillion watt lightning bolts? The word "unlimited" means that the energy source is vast, not that a device can make and concentrate limitless amounts of power per second.

Right now, you can buy an arc-welding unit, plug it in and "create" a couple of inches of plasma to weld with - and you'll pay the electric company a lot of cash to burn the coal to make the electricity. If you had a $5000 "free energy generator", that makes enough power to power a whole house, you could run your house, or (if you could store the energy in massive batteries for quick release) probably arc-weld with it - but not both at once.

Average US house uses 14,000 kwh per year.
A year is 365 days x 24 hours = 8760 hours (525,600 minutes)
So, the generator would need to make about 1.6kw/hour or 0.026kw/minute or 0.0044kw/second
That's about 4-1/2 watts per second. Compare that to a stun gun (I know, they hold a charge in a capacitor, kind of like a quick discharge battery.)

Unless my math is screwed up, if the device could only put out 4W/s, you certainly could not weld with it. Maybe if you could talk 200 neighbors into allowing you to daisy-chain everyone's "free-energy" generators together, then maybe. But all their houses would be dark.

This is not a computer circuit (which is really just millions of tiny transistors - on/off switches) that can be miniaturized. Using the physics of real materials in the real world (and noting the devices that have shown some promise), these things will be the size of a car to power a house, later developments might get them down to the size of a home freezer:

A LENR makes heat, not electricity. (The LENR units are supposed to provide about 5KW of HEAT per year, and be the size of a large computer tower.) Then, you have to add a big generator, turning from the heat/steam, and you'd lose at least half in efficiency. So, it would take about 6 large computer tower-sized LENR units plus a large (basically, steam to electricity) generator.

A more exotic "free energy" device would be an over-unity generator with some pretty impressive sized rare earth magnets spinning around, sucking up some energy from [______] <--- "the vacuum", or the energy in space between molecules. High-tech and all "tricked-out" with non-wearing magnetic bearings, maybe the size of a small file cabinet to run your house - slowly putting out just enough voltage/wattage to do that. This is not ray gun technology!

Remember, volts is not watts. Tesla's impressive-looking photos display high voltage, not high wattage.

====================

I apologize for my very snarky outburst, but I'm stunned that this many people have expressed fear over this unknown. It's like one cave man found a stick on fire, and brought it to show to the others back at the cave who had never seen fire. Have you thought this through? You know you can take anything to the realm of irrational fears.

We're not talking about "free energy" generator units that produce the energy per second of the Hoover Dam. Is your idea of a weapon that this would be used to store up a great deal of energy in a battery or capacitor to deliver the fatal shock? Seriously, just what are you visualizing? Would you need to mount this weapon you visualize on a tank?

And Carmody, I know you're a really bright guy but this seems ridiculous to an exponential degree: altering time/space? Let's say joe nefarious homeowner wants to shoot lightning bolts or warp space and time. What's your best guess as to how many gigawatts or terrawatts per second will be required, and how many thousand tons of rare earth spinning around it might take to make that energy?

Dennis

[ThePythonicCow]

So, the generator would need to make about 1.6kw/hour or 0.026kw/minute or 0.0044kw/second
That's about 4-1/2 watts per second. Compare that to a stun gun (I know, they hold a charge in a capacitor, kind of like a quick discharge battery.)
eh - eh - I don't think so :).

That's not 1.6 kw/hour, but rather 1.6 kwh/hour.

A kilowatt-hour (kwh) is an amount of energy, not a rate of using energy. A kilowatt-hour hour is the amount of energy that is consumed if one uses energy at the rate of a kilowatt for an entire hour.

Using 1.6 kwh/hour means using 1.6 kilowatt-hours in one hour, which (canceling the hours) is using energy at the rate of 1.6 kilowatts (also known as 1600 watts).

So the average house uses electricity at the average rate of 1600 watts.

Here's a 1600 watt halogen heater:


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ocoLQzU8L.jpg
Your average house is like having that heater plugged in, all the time.

[ThePythonicCow]

So the average house uses electricity at the average rate of 1600 watts.

Using 1600 watts over 110 volt lines draws about 1600/110 == 14.6 amps, which pretty well maxes out a 15 amp typical household circuit. You don't put a 1600 watt heater on a 15 amp household circuit with much else, or the circuit breaker will blow.

I don't know beans about arc welding, but a quick search suggests that while one can weld with just 30 amps (small jobs, thin rods, easy stuff), more serious work can pull over 200 amps. However, that's across an arc voltage of perhaps 30 volts, not 110 volts. Pulling a steady 200 amps across a 30 volt arc would only be 54 amps off a 110 volt line, or more likely 27 amps off a 220 volt line (and would be some serious welding ... probably on an automated production line.)

[norman]

What with one thing and another, I think I can see several lines of thinking converging on a single outcome/solution.

As the talk gets more about variously assumed inevitabilities, and the raw humanity is sucked out of it, what's left? We'll be thinking and talking like the cabal in a minute. Let's get the great cull started, then we can buy some more time to tweak our use of energy and have lots more space to spread out so we don't have to be living on top of each other and legislating for idiots.

Great, is that the plan then ?

Put me down for a few thousand acres on the banks of a big river secreted away behind a huge forest and jungle. I want to produce at least 7 generations of offspring before my tribe re emerges.

No wait, drat, my name is on the kill list. Bad idea, back to the drawing board.


Seriously, it's not hard to see what they've got in mind for us once there's no where left to run. Also, it's not hard to see the implications of some of the reasoning going on on this and the Wade Frazier thread. It leaves me wondering if this is even about humanity at all now.

Elitism is possibly undergoing a revolution. What I can see of it doesn't look good for anyone other than the new elite who don't seem to want to fix humanity half as much as they want to give up on humanity 'for the sake of the world', which probably even boils down to being for the sake of themselves, which makes the new elite no different than the old elite.

Hell, if the 'revolution' kicks off tomorrow, I'm really not sure which side I should be on, and I never thought I'd say that.

Perhaps the truth is, if there is a revolution, I'm better off not to be on any side, and hope there are enough of us independents around to make sure neither side gets their hands on the controls.

What's the big deal about replacing one bunch of self appointed leaders with another bunch of self appointed leaders? Even more frightening, the ecofascists are hell bent on being in our faces about every damned thing under the sun. At least the old ones distanced themselves from us so we didn't have to have them in our faces all the time.

A couple of years ago, the Arab spring kicked off. It was a manipulation of the force of the people who were excited about kicking the bastards out of power so they could have freedom. What did they all end up with?....... ultra fascist Islam. That was the plan all along but the population had to be fooled into an uprising so as to be able to say it was the will of the people.

Next, when enough of their ducks are in a row, the people of the world are going to be used in exactly the same way to do an even bigger bait-and-switch stunt. So, what are the people of the world going to be crying out for by then. One of the things on the list will be clean/free energy. That should get a fair sized mob out on the streets. Doesn't mean they will ever get to see anything they demanded, of course, but it will give a fake legitimacy to the changes being foisted on us. At every stage it will be stated that the people didn't want what they already had and wanted change. They'll get plenty of change. Just not anything like what their hopes had projected, just like all those poor folks in the middle east who went out onto the streets to shout for more freedom and ended up getting less.

The way I see it right now. When the general population eventually wake up to the fact the elite are hell bent on killing them off en-mass, they will take to the streets to protest and bring down the elite, who will quietly step aside to make way for the new self appointed leaders who, once given enough power, will set about another version but equally drastic culling of the masses. This time it will be for the planet instead of for the military industrial complex.

No, I'm not impressed at all. No sign of a real intention to heal humanity is in sight, from either side of the fence. That's just a niggling little detail that's too hard fix, so 'let's just reboot and start again.

Ho-hum.

[Dennis Leahy]

norman, what's your vision?

Are you a luddite? Do you think we should live like the early 1800's or early 1600's or ...? I really have no idea what you consider a win. So, you don't want free energy devices. Specifically, why not? If there is something concrete (not just "the unknown") that you fear about free energy, what is it? And how can you equate those that want to shut down Big Energy with working for or with the cabal? Honestly, I have no idea where you're coming from. Give us a strong hint of you vision - not of where it might go - but where you'd like to see us go.

Dennis

[Wade Frazier]

Hi all:

I really am a pretty insanely busy man, and posting at Avalon is one of the things that I do in my “spare time,” and my wife long ago resigned herself to the fact that I would always be playing this game of Earth-healing, etc. Somebody at Avalon just made me aware of this thread, and I tried to dissuade the person from joining in these fusillades. I debated whether I would post anything here, and I think I will make this one post. I really don’t have the time or inclination for anything more.

Fred has thoughtfully presented his answer to this question:

http://www.ahealedplanet.net/conun.htm#question

I have seen many give it a shot over the years, and everybody is entitled to their opinion. I have a different opinion, and have devoted most of my life toward its pursuit. But I may be wrong. :) I thank Fred for making his post on a new thread. Dennis, bro, I always love your attitude, and you definitely wade into the fray. :) People kicking around the question can be a good thing, as it usually forces them to think about what kind of world they want to live in and what they are going to do about it. In the end, it is the question that we all face, every day of our lives.

I know that so-called free energy technology has been on the planet for a long time, probably long before I was born, and the people keeping it under wraps are not doing it out of some benevolent intent of keeping it from a species that can’t handle personal empowerment. They have long had some strange bedfellows; those who deny the existence or feasibility of those technologies, or the desirability of even having them. Those who publicly deny that “free energy” exists, or think that it is not desirable, or deny its potentially transformative effects, might want to think about who may be profiting from their activities, if they don’t know already. If their goal is to keep it from their unenlightened fellow humans who can’t be trusted with personal empowerment, they also might want to think about the assumptions underlying that perspective. Pretty much without exception, when I have gotten to the bottom of those kinds of arguments, they all argued for scarcity, which all of the dominant ideologies are also based on:

http://www.ahealedplanet.net/paradigm.htm#dominant

I argue for abundance, plain and simple:

http://www.ahealedplanet.net/abund.htm#abundance

That is my trip, and without what I call free energy, abundance likely won’t happen. Energy is all that there is in this universe.

Best to all,

Wade

[Maunagarjana]

Not heard of George LuBuono but I will check him out. He is essentially right on target with what my understanding of the effects of "free" energy are. You are right, nothing is ever truly without its consequences. For me, it's counter-intuitive to believe otherwise.

His book "Alien Mind" has been made available by him for free. Here's a PDF copy: http://wespenre.com/pdf/AlienMind.pdf

[ThePythonicCow]

And Carmody, I know you're a really bright guy but this seems ridiculous to an exponential degree: altering time/space?
From the view of conventional science, such as we were taught in school, yes, the physics that has been hidden from us is ridiculous to an exponential degree.

I don't understand this hidden physics much myself, but I do believe that it makes possible destroying buildings, cities, Hoover dams and planets. Joseph P. Farrell's view of the origin of the asteroid belt is that it is the debris left over from using an energy weapon to blow up a larger planet that had been between Mars and Jupiter.

Just how much "time and material" it takes to build a weapon capable of any such level of destruction, given the expertise, I don't know. But I do know that humanity has repeatedly demonstrated that it tends to form gangs, nations and even large civilizations that accumulate as much resources as they can acquire, in part just to build or acquire the most powerful weapons they can muster. The same groups also work diligently to deny the existence, and obscure the very physics underlying, any such weapons.

[Dennis Leahy]

...Using 1.6 kwh/hour means using 1.6 kilowatt-hours in one hour, which (canceling the hours) is using energy at the rate of 1.6 kilowatts (also known as 1600 watts).

So the average house uses electricity at the average rate of 1600 watts.

...
Thanks, Paul.

So, you're saying 1600 watts, continuous. If Nefarious Joe had a "free energy" device capable of producing 1600 watts, Nefarious Joe would have 1600 watts at his disposal, if he shut down his house and used all the power for his evil madness. Am I understating the danger inherent in 1600 watts, in the hands of a madman? I'm trying to get a handle on whether a device that could power a home is enough energy to be concerned with Joe Homeowner altering the time/space continuum or even shooting a lightning bolt at his neighbor for letting his dog crap in Joe's yard. And then there's the physical limitation of carrying the generator with you as an assault-ray-gun. Is anyone suggesting that someone could actually physically carry around a "free energy" generator and a gun-ish doohickey that would allow an evil guy to shoot a beam of energy? If not, then I want to ask of anyone who is worried about the danger of "free energy" generators, specifically what do you envision could be done with them?

If we are talking about nations building a really really really big one, to zap their neighbor, I would suggest, again, that you spend a bit of time reading Wade Frazier's work, and gain an understanding about what causes conflict. Yes, I get the "Hatfield's versus the McCoy's" thing, the ancient feud, but I'm descended from the Irish, and I never though I'd see the end of violence between Ireland and Northern Ireland (or more precisely, those that wanted Northern Ireland to be rejoined with Ireland.) But it happened. In my lifetime. These types of conflicts would not simply disappear in an instant between agressive nations (such as the USA and Israel) and their victim nations. But then, those gigantic problems are due to extremely evil, selfish, sociopaths gaining control of nations. It really is its own issue, its own thread. But what I wanted to point out is that Wade is correct in his understanding that most conflict is over energy. You might say resources as well, but if a nation has the energy to create elements via orgone technology (transmutation of elements) or could literally send a ship out to mine asteroids for needed minerals, well, conflict over even resources is largely energy dependent.

I'm talking long-term here, not just a few years. The "eye for an eye" stuff would dissolve over the course of a generation or two. Nations would have very little to no need of conflict. And let's be honest, most conflict is fomented for money, and the miscreants that have commandeered the USA are dripping with blood to rub those gold coins together. So, in addition to "free energy", we still need to remove the monsters from power over us as a people and the US as an nation.

Someone mentioned a fishing boat could stay out and keep fishing. That is a concrete example, and we could talk about that and maybe get an idea whether that is a concern or not. Do fishing boats only come in when they run out of diesel? But I think at least that's a fair starting point for a discussion: people who exploit are now (presumably) limited by the amount of money they have, to buy energy/fuel, or they would exploit more. That's a concrete example. Is it a problem of allowing exploiters to exploit as much as they want to, with no oversight or regulation, or is it a problem only held in check by high energy cost? In the US, in inland waters, there are fishing limits - to ensure the population of fish is stable. Is it unreasonable to tell fishing boats in international waters there are certain species off-limits this year, or maximum tonnages that can be yanked out by everyone in a year? It seems to me the problems that would seemingly be "caused" or exacerbated by cheap, clean energy are mainly problems with governments and corporations being imperialists and overblown exploiters.

I'm rambling a bit, must be time for sleep.

What are your specific fears about "free"/cheap (clean, limitless) energy?

Dennis

[norman]

norman, what's your vision?

Are you a luddite? Do you think we should live like the early 1800's or early 1600's or ...? I really have no idea what you consider a win. So, you don't want free energy devices. Specifically, why not? If there is something concrete (not just "the unknown") that you fear about free energy, what is it? And how can you equate those that want to shut down Big Energy with working for or with the cabal? Honestly, I have no idea where you're coming from. Give us a strong hint of you vision - not of where it might go - but where you'd like to see us go.

Dennis

I'd like to see us heal humanity before we throw yet more amplification into the mix. We are already destroying ourselves with too much amplification. It's even worse than that, the amp' has become an oscillator and we, most modern/western people are now not even using technology as an amp, we're using it, or 'being used by it' as an oscillator. The output is driving the input far more than human input is.

Until, as a whole race of people we catch up with and understand what the hell we are doing with all this technology we've already got ( and, frankly, we don't ), it will be total insanity to unleash "free energy".

What Wade is talking about, Total abundance, is a way off in an idealistic future where humans have figured out what the hell they are doing and know something about how to handle it. In just over 100 years we've gone from horse and cart to to GPS and full spectrum cyber dominance. In all that time there a large proportion of people still doing the same things their grand parents were doing and both sides of this power struggle are effectively telling them the same thing. Get out of the way, this things got a life of it's own now.... !... and that's true, because it not an amplifier any more, it's an oscillator.

If it was really their own fault, I'd have to at least try to agree with you, but it's not. They've been lied to and treated like the idiots they've either remained or become because of it. That, first of all, is criminal, in my book, and negates all claim to a higher moral value that is currently pushing the scientific case for a full commitment to this self oscillating phenomenon and a split or cull or both. That's like a bunch of bank robbers cleaning out the bank where all your hard earned/slaved money was, then coming and buying the house you live in with your own stolen money and kicking you out because you can't pay the bloody rent because they robbed the bank with your money in it.

I'm not saying I don't want free energy devices. I want a world where we can have that and lots more too. I'm saying we are constructing our future by the wrong method. As we are right now, we are not constructing anything at all, we are destroying everything. The elite are encouraging it because we are clearing everything out of the way for what they want to bring in to replace it.

We are being fooled. Just like the people of Libya and Egypt were being fooled.

[ThePythonicCow]

I'm trying to get a handle on whether a device that could power a home is enough energy to be concerned with Joe Homeowner altering the time/space continuum or even shooting a lightning bolt at his neighbor for letting his dog crap in Joe's yard.
I don't know :).

I am supposing, however, that if the physics of such devices were widely understood, that even if Joe couldn't make serious trouble with what was normally allocated for his home use, some more of us humans could, and given our spotty history, would, make serious trouble.

It's really not so much Joe I worry about, or Ivan or Wei or Ahmad or Santiago. It's the larger groupings of people ... some of which do now have, as best as I can guess, this "real" physics. But even one little guy, if he is able to steal and misuse a powerful weapon, can make a serious mess of things.

[ThePythonicCow]

And then there's the physical limitation of carrying the generator with you as an assault-ray-gun.
I doubt that the sorts of generators that we are being told are in development, soon to be released (for how long now) are themselves so dangerous.

It's what you could build, if you knew how, and what others are building, given greater resources and deeper knowledge.

[norman]

norman, what's your vision?


Dennis


We are being fooled. Just like the people of Libya and Egypt were being fooled.

Ok Dennis, here's an example of what I mean, and why I've been expressing so much rage in the direction of Wade, behind his back.


There were a lot of people in Libya and Egypt who'd been on the net and got clued up about what was going on around the world and saw how screwed they were under their current leaders ( actually, I don't think Quadaffi was such a bad leader but people thought they wanted stuff he wouldn't let them have, quite wisely in my opinion )

Some of those people were very smart types who could put together a big picture in their heads and express it to many more etc. The uprisings grew, the fever frenzy for freedom grew too. Everyone got excited and tacked their own idea of freedom onto the movement and it all came together with a force that toppled the old leaders ( with a lot of outside mercenary interference ) .

Then what happened?

The strings were pulled in the background and just as pre arranged via Hilary Clinton, the Moslem Brotherhood took control and set about putting freedom loving women back indoors and wrapped up from head to toe and so much more. The people realised they had been tricked and had jumped from the frying pan into the fire.


Now, free energy, or a number of other favorite things on a list of desires by the general educated and semi educated population who are sick and fed up of the old order and their steel rule over them.

Enter Wade Frazier. A super smart ( in his field ) guy who can talk the free energy talk like no one else. He inspires a whole lot of others to think about how great it would be to have free energy and all the wonderful stuff that 'could' go with it.

Other issues voiced by other smart guys also build up a crowd and things start to get 'interesting'. Protests of various kinds start to topple parts of the old order. A corporation here and and a Bank there and a few big fish get outed as thoroughly unpleasant people etc etc.

The general population can start to smell blood and it kicks off big time.

People turn to the smart guys for some sort of leadership and focus. Wade and others are there to provide it, passionately. Everyone is convinced it's going to flip and they are not going to give up until everything is down and trampled on.

Then, suddenly, People like Wade find they are kicked out of the picture and a new, never heard of before bunch move into center stage and take over the 'revolution' from there and things people thought they were going to get out of it vanish from the new agenda and other, really creepy stuff starts happening and the people realize they've been tricked.

A few more short years down the road and they find themselves living in a George Orwell world.


It's not all that unlike being taken out to a field holding a spade and being forced to dig your own grave. If they can get us to trash the old system for them, why should they get their own hands dirty.

Remember, before you tell me about positivity and negativity, They are perfectly willing to pull off horrific shocking false flag stunts to brutalize our way down their path for us. We Avalonians and the like are only a speck in the larger crowd. Most people will fall for every trick they play and we will have go with flow or get trampled under foot.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that the stunts they've still got up their sleeves well outnumber the stunts we've already witnessed.

[Fred Steeves]

Oops, stand by. (LOL)

[CD7]

"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".



When the oppressor is gone, the garden will appear

[Fred Steeves]

Here, we'll try it again. :fie:

There's something I would like to make crystal clear to everybody who has followed this thread, especially these last two pages. I am very regretful that it has gotten turned into a debate over Wade, his experiences, and/or his voluminous body of work. That was never my intent what so ever. I've followed his thread (off and on) from the early stages, and I thank him for my education, atleast in very layman's terms. In other words, I get the overall gist of it.

I create threads concerning subjects, ideas and insights, NOT PEOPLE. The free energy arena is all three of those, and it certainly involves Wade (Same as Tesla and others), but IT, is not Wade Frazier, o.k.? There are other FE threads floating around Avalon as well, and just so happenes it was one of those that inspired me to post this one two days ago.

That my vision of our times no longer exactly parallels Wade's, is immaterial to the subject of this thread. I don't always agree with my wife over things either, yet she still loves me, :) and is not offended. We talk about it, and sometimes simply and respectfully agree to disagree. No harm, no foul.

Now that that's out of the way, if stating that going within and re-discovering who the hell we really are is paramount, that everything else is a distraction, can be interpreted as fear based, and a lame excuse for "inaction", then so be it. Anyone who is either presently undoing their deep programming, or has done it, will certainly tell you a very different story. The journey of discovering that YOU are not only the problem, but the solution, is not for the faint of heart. It can be very lonely, and very dark.

One more thing. So it's not seen that I'm just picking on FE (of which I'm not at all against by the way), I think the world wide web and computers, which are on a breathtaking pace to being integrated with our bodies like Star Trek's "The Borg", and thus our being directly connected to the hive mind/their mind, is also a trap.

I think we are in a very brief window of opportunity to use them the way we are now here, like a ghost in the machine so to speak. Of note...This is not a knock on software engineers.:)

Cheers,
Fred

[ceetee9]

People turn to the smart guys for some sort of leadership and focus. Wade and others are there to provide it, passionately. Everyone is convinced it's going to flip and they are not going to give up until everything is down and trampled on.

Then, suddenly, People like Wade find they are kicked out of the picture and a new, never heard of before bunch move into center stage and take over the 'revolution' from there and things people thought they were going to get out of it vanish from the new agenda and other, really creepy stuff starts happening and the people realize they've been tricked.Norman, I think I understand your point, but is it that they were "tricked" or that they were still looking for their salvation in others? Do we truly need "leaders," someone to follow? Or do we have everything we need within? I'm not suggesting we live in chaos and that it's every man, woman, and child for themselves. By all means, we should use every available resource for the betterment of all, but this does not mean we need to be led. We need only guidance. People with little to no authority, but who truly love their job and do it for the betterment of all mankind and not for whatever profit, power or control they can garner from it.

You can call me a Utopianist, or naive, or whatever you like, but I believe that, at our core, we all just want to live well and in peace and harmony. It is only a very, very few who want to have everything, and slaves to maintain it all for them, while they derive their sick and twisted pleasure from inflicting pain and suffering on the masses with the help of their clueless puppets. These are the people we absolutely do not want to lead us or in positions of power and authority. Yet what do we have? Who allows them to be in power? Who are the crazy ones?

[AutumnW]

So many fantastic and all valid points of view here. I'll try to boil down what I see as the central philosophical divergence here.

As highlighted in CD7's post, once oppressive forces (Big oil and other controlling institutions, I am guessing) are removed, it allows for a flowering of the human spirit and human potential through access to free energy. Remove the overwhelming stress and we will become the people we are supposed to be. As more enlightened, less burdened human beings we are much less likely to act out dire worst case predictions. We won't have the desire or the inclination.

This could happen. There are precedents here. The bubonic plague reduced stress, by reducing populations. A larger leisure class was the result and that helped to kick start the renaissance in Europe, centuries ago. We are the net beneficiaries of bubonic plague, today.

The competing philosophical perspective is the idea that people will not evolve emotionally quickly enough for the planet to be able to withstand less restraint on their basic nature. The seven deadly sins will still be there and there will be fewer artificial restraints holding us back. Materialism will run rampant.

It's possible that both competing philosophies are in play here and it is very hard to predict what will happen. Terms like 'abundance' have to be carefully examined. What exactly does 'abundance' mean to the vast majority? An abundance of education, spiritual sustenance would be a good thing. But abundance in the material world, often rests on destruction of the eco-sphere and enslavement of populations who are politically powerless. Will free energy make this worse or better?

[Carmody]

One can unwind their own internal foibles and get free energy at the same time. That the return to core and the emergence of new will happen, seemingly...simultaneously.

[Chris Gilbert]

My own observation has been that two assumptions are often combined together. One, that zero-point/scalar technology exists (which I believe it does) and that it can be used indefinitely without repercussions, solving most if not all of our problems.

The second assumption may not be true, even if it seems to be without repercussions at first that doesn't mean the usage of overunity devices can be done indefinitely. Elsewhere, such as in "Alien Mind", mention has been made that utilizing scalar energy (if done too crudely and too quickly) actually speeds up entropy in the local time-space.

I agree that imagining a world of abundance and riding oneself of scarcity-conditioning is a key shift that has to be made. Even the world we have today, with better "relative" abundance and equality than, say, 400 years ago, would have seemed impossible to most living in that time. External changes are needed, but our souls and mindsets that will likely have to change in tandem to facilitate the outer transformations.Case in point, it's easier for me to think in terms of abundance after experiencing bouts of inner, blissful "fullness" as a result of neikung practice.

[RMorgan]

Hey folks,

This abundance stuff is mostly a trap. It would only be nice if there was abundance for everyone in the world, which is most likely something very hard, in not impossible, to achieve.

Look how first world countries, like the USA, tried to create a world of abundance, "world" meaning abundance in their own countries and f#ck the rest.

As long as we have countries, and different power structures, leading to the concept that certain groups of people are more worthy than others, there will be abundance to a few groups and scarcity to others.

Damn, right now, with our current energetic resources, we could feed and give comfortable lives to everyone in the world. So, why don´t we do this right now?

Because people from certain countries think they deserve to have more than others, so they actually take from others in order to live their "abundant" lives.

Besides, we don´t need abundance. We just need good food, good shelter, good water and good social relationships to be happy; More than that eventually leads to utter materialism, just like it´s happening in our current society.

The line drawn between abundance and excess is very subtle.

Also, free energy doesn´t mean we´ll give nature a break. We would still mine for iron, copper and everything else; We would still practice predatory fishing; We would still waste precious fresh water used in industrial processes; We would still use oil for making plastics; We would still be negligent regarding the management of human waste, etc...Probably, with free energy, we would exploit nature even more than we do now, giving that energetic costs would not be a limiting factor anymore.

A change to free energy wouldn´t necessarily lead to a change of destructive human behavior, or a change of consciousness.

Raf.

[Chris Gilbert]

Hey folks,
Also, free energy doesn´t mean we´ll give nature a break. We would still mine for iron, copper and everything else; We would still practice predatory fishing; We would still waste precious fresh water used in industrial processes; We would still use oil for making plastics; We would still be negligent regarding the management of human waste, etc...Probably, with free energy, we would exploit nature even more than we do now, giving that energetic costs would not be a limiting factor anymore.
Raf.

Mining could be done on asteroids and planets in the solar system, a prospect that would be readily feasible given that scalar energy makes space travel much more accessible.

I agree that 'free energy' wouldn't be a perfect fix, but it really would open up new vistas and possibilities.

[RMorgan]

Mining could be done on asteroids and planets in the solar system, a prospect that would be readily feasible given that scalar energy makes space travel much more accessible.

I agree that 'free energy' wouldn't be a perfect fix, but it really would open up new vistas and possibilities.

Yes, my friend.

But the question is; Would free energy change the current, natural or conditioned, human destructive, overbearing and selfish behavior?

You know, people always think that there´s a magical solution to fix this mess, but actually nothing external can fix it.

It must first come from inside; Then we can think about changing the world.

Raf.

[CD7]

But the question is; Would free energy change the current, natural or conditioned, human destructive, overbearing and selfish behavior?

You know, people always thing that there´s a magical solution to fix this mess, but actually nothing external can fix it.

It must first come from inside; Then we can think about changing the world.



Interesting question....but i cant help but think tht the day to day survival over ones life and the stressed caused would exhibit different behavior if resources were free as intended. Especially if a person doesnt have the game of collecting as many green papers as they can from cradle to grave.

I think a persons "inside" would feel much better...not necessarily tht it would make everything honky dorey or fix it. Human behavior would still b at play vying for the most free resources if conscously we made no improvements

[Dennis Leahy]

...if stating that going within and re-discovering who the hell we really are is paramount, that everything else is a distraction, can be interpreted as fear based, and a lame excuse for "inaction", then so be it. Anyone who is either presently undoing their deep programming, or has done it, will certainly tell you a very different story. The journey of discovering that YOU are not only the problem, but the solution, is not for the faint of heart. It can be very lonely, and very dark.
...

Working on your self, educating your self, enlightening your self... these are responsibilities of the highest order, prime directives. However "everything else" is not a distraction, not even for monks. We have physical needs. Leaping from there to 'free energy is a trap' is "jumping the shark", a hyperbolic slap-down of the only technology that can disassemble the major physical control grid and major source of pollution on the planet. Why pick on free energy devices? Why not pick on, say, natural water sources?

Spring water is a trap! Sure, we need water, but the utility company already provides it right to our homes. It's good enough, and feeling controlled by the water utility shows a lack of personal development. We have everything we need within ourselves (and the pipe that is connected to our house.) Looking outside of ourselves for the answers is an age old, tried and true dead end road, and wide open to manipulation. The answer to every "problem" lays solely within each and every individual, and nowhere else.

1) Any solution which takes us outside of ourselves for the answers is an age old, tried and true dead end road, and wide open to manipulation. The answer to every "problem" lays solely within each and every individual, and nowhere else.
Sorry, this makes no sense to me. The answers to physical problems come from the physical universe. The answer to every problem is therefore not within us. We need energy. Photosynthesis (the basis for almost all life on the planet) requires energy. If someone wants to go Amish and live with only photosynthesized energy, great. I respect them. I don't argue for iPods and TVs and the avalanche of crap that the corporate world sells as "needs", but the world needs energy - massive amounts of energy. We can be stupid and use the dirtiest or deadliest forms of energy (oil, gas, coal, hell, whale oil), or we can be smart and use the cleanest energy possible. Clean also has to be considered in the process of building the energy creation and storage device, whether it's a solar panel, geothermal unit, or zero point device - and the batteries, capacitors, and heat sinks to hold the energy until needed. The next major consideration (or really, the prime one) is the renewability or depletability of the "field"/resource. Solar energy IS free energy, and though not limitless, there is a massive amount of energy striking the Earth daily - certainly enough to power all of society if we could harness and store it. Electricity can be made from devices that use the difference in temperature of two areas - again, close enough to limitless to supply all our energy needs. We don't have these technologies because of the Big Energy Mafia, that want to ensure we remain connected to the grid and our wallets to their bank vaults. Arguing against "free energy" is not just arguing against mysterious (and frightening to some as the 'unknown') zero-point energy devices.

We could all train ourselves to run a marathon dragging a 26.2 mile long hose with us all the way, or we could train to run with a water bottle. Are we better people, more mystical, more enlightened if we use the hose? Off the grid free energy is freeing to us, like the water bottle is to the marathon runner. People are going to work on their spiritual, emotional, mental development - or not - at their own pace. Why would we agree to allow the Big Energy Mafia to hold us all in chains and somehow tie that into our personal development timeline?

Studies have now been done that show our inherent cooperative nature. Take away the major reason for competition (energy acquisition), and the paradigm shift, "cooperation, not competition", will blossom. How can that not be seen as beneficial to the self-development that is the premise of this thread? By what logic does it make sense to wait for every member of society to fight their way through the artificially, externally imposed competition and enlighten themselves first, before we as a society make choices that are environmentally responsible and that unshackle us from the greed-driven imposed energy slavery controlled by a few sociopaths?




2) It's putting the cart before the horse. Having that kind of power in the hands of insufficiently raised conscious awareness is a recipe for disaster, and very likely responsible for the destruction of many earlier civilazations much like ours today. Quite possibly even planets. This is fear porn. I assume you mean so-called "zero-point" technology, not photovoltaic or magnetohydrodynamic or other "free energy" generators. Immediately, the unknown becomes not only unfathomably powerful (exploding planets?!), but also doable at that scale for nefarious groups or nations that, though the scarcity paradigm has been annihilated, are somehow going to use the device to recreate the scarcity paradigm (necessary to foment war.)


3) If/when humanity is ready, it will come naturally. Like the old saying goes: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".Humanity is a collection of souls at every level of development. "Humanity", collectively, will never be ready for anything - because it it is not a homogenized cluster of equally evolved and adept souls, and never will be. It is an impossible construct - a fantasy beyond fantasy - to envision humanity all on the same page developmentally. Again, "free" energy frees, it does not bind. The freeing and the blossoming of a paradigm of abundance (arguably, our natural state of being, that has been perverted by a handful of sociopaths), though "unknown" in history, should not engender fear.

Fred, you know I love you bro, and I do get that you are trying to relate that our personal development should be sought internally not externally. But you blended that with disavowing our physical needs and solely looking inward for all development. This is true for spiritual, emotional, and mental development; not true for physical.

Dennis

[Carmody]

the problem is that if free energy or such devices where available right now, the mentality that people exist in, right now, would be one of using that energy tool to make bigger hammers. To have a more powerful lever to be an unthinking or limited vision monkey via said tool.

The thing that appears to be going on is that we are being made aware of this method, this tool, this reality,and we need to grow into it, before picking it up.

I don't make any free energy devices, but I do work pretty hard at making people aware that it exists and also to make them aware of the ramification of it. To open their understanding into it. All while they cannot touch it. You don't put a box of dynamite and box of matches a school yard and then just 'let it be', that is incredibly foolish and it will end in disaster.

Our problem is that the 'PTB' as we like to call them, have too much of the monkey still in them, and desire to control this lever, which is not to be allowed to happen. That they have a combined problem of responsible people in their group...thinking that this has to happen gradually, in order to not have humanity implode..... combined with a bunch of people in their group....who want to keep it to themselves and will kill anyone and anything that touches it.

In the past, this combination worked fairly well. When we where further away from the actual moment of such things going public. That if something that was simple to make but very dangerous in uneducated hands..that if this technology got out there, the repercussions could be extreme. In that case, the good thinking members would probably allow the a-holes among them to go out and enact a localized cure. ie, kill the inventor off in a way that looked like a normal or accidental death.

Now, as we stand at the threshold of this introduction of these more complex realities, we find the ideology and expression of the two groups are not in sync. The nasty want to continue killing and basically kill off what they feel are undesirable parts of humanity. The so-called undesirable parts are merely souls who came here and are experiencing a human life.

My solution is to push the pile forward, to keep introducing the thoughts and questions within this technological and ideological change..and press that INTO the public mind and eye. A form of preparation of the public, that the nice and not so nice PTB seem to be equally shying away from. to make the truth of it into matrix of understanding that is inescapable... so the truth has to come to the being involved. All before a physical tool is in their hand. That the thoughts on the ramifications and the complexity of the tool appears before the tool can be put in the hand.

Thus, I'm not introducing explicit construction booklets, or any such things... but the ideas, the physics, the shape of those things, in a layman's language.. so the bulk of humanity can begin to understand the ramifications and the realities at hand.

So that when the hand finally attempts to reach for the tool, the mind is ready to understand the complexities of the tool and it's potential.

[RMorgan]

But the question is; Would free energy change the current, natural or conditioned, human destructive, overbearing and selfish behavior?

You know, people always thing that there´s a magical solution to fix this mess, but actually nothing external can fix it.

It must first come from inside; Then we can think about changing the world.



Interesting question....but i cant help but think tht the day to day survival over ones life and the stressed caused would exhibit different behavior if resources were free as intended. Especially if a person doesnt have the game of collecting as many green papers as they can from cradle to grave.

I think a persons "inside" would feel much better...not necessarily tht it would make everything honky dorey or fix it. Human behavior would still b at play vying for the most free resources if conscously we made no improvements

Hi my friend,

Well, the problem is consumerism. This is what is killing the world and the environment, and we´re all responsible for it.

Right now, when resources and industrial processes are highly expensive, people are already compulsively consuming much more than they need to live a happy life.

If we reduce the prices, making consumer goods much cheaper and affordable, would you think people will consume more or less than they do now?

With the current social mentality, people will consume more, much more, of course.

Currently, scarcity, leading to high price tags, is the only thing braking excessive consumerism.

I´m not saying that the scarcity market rule is beneficial, far from it. I´m saying that this system, and the conditional mentality of people who support it, is totally messed up, maybe beyond repair, as far as I can reason about it.

So, what if free energy will lead to a rampant acceleration in consumerism, since everything would become affordable all of a sudden?

Is there a way to teach the masses how to consume cohesively, in this case? If there is, why don´t we do this right now?

Honestly, right now we could fix most global problems by balancing consumerism. We could eradicate hunger and give everyone a good life. Why don´t we do it right now?

In my opinion, we don´t fix everything right now because we´re always waiting for a miracle to fix it for us, and because no one is willing to have bit less, so other human beings, on the other side of the planet, can have a bit more.

The fact is, the vast majority of people couldn´t care less about it all.

Raise your hands here, anyone who has an iPad or iPhone...Good. Do you care for the fact that your iPhone is made by people working in inhuman working conditions, treated like animals, up there in China? Look to your iPhone and answer it to me, honestly. Do you care, or you´re just pretending that you care?

Who here has a car? Have you ever considered riding a bicycle or using public transportation, to stop financing the genocide happening on the other side of the world, where millions of people are murdered so you can have your gasoline?

Raise you finger if you have a bank account! Do you care to know that your money is financing all this mess? Have you considered closing your bank account?

So, would free energy fix this hypocrite mentality? Would it fix denial? Would it fix greed? Would it fix conformism?

Be honest with me folks. Look around you, to all the stuff you have. If you trace everything you have back to its origins, you will undoubtedly realize that a lot of people are suffering, or even dying, so you can have all this stuff.

Do you really care? Answer me honestly. Do you care?

Wold free energy change that?

Raf.

[AutumnW]

RMorgan, Thanks for being so passionate about this issue, along with all the others who have posted here! Could you write a little about how your experiences in Brazil inform your opinion, assuming they do? You're a good writer and I am fascinated with the lives of people living outside of North America. It would be really informative and interesting!

[RMorgan]

RMorgan, Thanks for being so passionate about this issue, along with all the others who have posted here! Could you write a little about how your experiences in Brazil inform your opinion, assuming they do? You're a good writer and I am fascinated with the lives of people living outside of North America. It would be really informative and interesting!

Brazil? Brazil was started as an exploitation colony and still is one.

It´s a totally sold out country, with no sovereignty whatsoever; A poor cartoon of a developed country, which dreams about being among the superpowers of the world, no matter what.

Our culture was reduced to nothing. There´s almost nothing left of our beautiful indigenous people and most of what´s left of it are alcoholic junkies who lease their land to illegal foreign mining corporations and sell their daughters to prostitution.

Our contemporary music and art is ridiculous; Cheap copies of foreign pseudo-artistic manifestations.

Consumerism here is growing like a cancer; Here we have the common practice to parcel consumer goods, so they are paid in 12 or more monthly parcels along the year, which leads to incredibly high personal debts, because very poor people buy much more that they can afford, which, of course, generates a lot of profit for the foreign bankers.

The Amazon? Completely sold out as well, to foreign mining and pharmaceutical companies. What´s left of it is being deforested by livestock farmers, who export meat to the whole world, making Brazil the number one on the global meat exportation rank.

Our government is totally corrupt and the poor people keep voting for the same corrupt politicians over and over again, because during elections, the candidates buy votes by giving poor people a few bags of rice, beans or new dentures.

Even our impeached ex-president, Fernando Color, is back, this time as a senator.

Our public services are a crap; We pay one of the highest taxes in the world, but have nothing in return, because the politicians steal everything.

Anyway, despite all that, people here are very happy and friendly, but are utter conformists. It´s not completely their fault, after all, that our country is this mess. The government knows that uneducated people are much easier to manipulate, so they do the best they can to keep people as ignorant as possible.

So yes, the whole world is a mess, not only North-America or Europe. Everything is f#cked up.

[Freed Fox]

Raf, I disagree that scarcity is the only thing which leverages consumerism. People can exercise moderation without being faced with scarcity.

I only eat one and a half meals a day, I walk whenever possible, I go through a small, local bank, and I don't own any Apple products. Yes, I'm sure at some point down the line I own a product which has caused suffering, even if it is just the laptop I'm using right now.

Does that really make me just as culpable as the owner/operator of the sweatshops, which drive their employees to suicide? Or the company which intentionally purchases products from the aforementioned sweatshop solely because their products are cheaper, and thus reinforcing the inhumane practice? When I become aware of such abuses, I boycott the company responsible (as I officially did with Apple when I learned of their practices). Is there really much more that I can do within the confines of the law? Should I go above the law and risk my freedom, or indeed my very life, to possibly make a small dent in this pervasive system?

Now, no longer addressing Raf but speaking generally, I want to remind folks about a couple of important concepts;

False Equivalence - one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.

Slippery Slope - an argument which states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.

These are fallacies in logic, and are meant to be avoided.

[RMorgan]

Raf, I disagree that scarcity is the only thing which leverages consumerism. People can exercise moderation without being faced with scarcity.

I only eat one and a half meals a day, I walk whenever possible, I go through a small, local bank, and I don't own any Apple products. Yes, I'm sure at some point down the line I own a product which has caused suffering, even if it is just the laptop I'm using right now.

Does that really make me just as culpable as the owner/operator of the sweatshops, which drive their employees to suicide? Or the company which intentionally purchases products from the aforementioned sweatshop solely because their products are cheaper, and thus reinforcing the inhumane practice? When I become aware of such abuses, I boycott the company responsible (as I officially did with Apple when I learned of their practices). Is there really much more that I can do within the confines of the law? Should I go above the law and risk my freedom, or indeed my very life, to possibly make a small dent in this pervasive system?


Hey mate,

That´s great for you! You´re are leading by example, and that´s a great thing.

However, we both know you´re part of a very very tiny minority, even though you still support the system in a minor degree.

As far as I´m aware, and you can correct me if I´m wrong, most people couldn´t care less, and are active co-participants in this crime against humanity.

Most of them aren´t even aware of their participation, like the guy I saw the other day, in a socialist protest, with a Che Guevara t-shirt, filming it with his iPhone. Was he aware of his hypocrisy? I don´t think so. Can I blame him for his ignorance? No. Does it make him innocent? No.

Raf.

[Freed Fox]

However, we both know you´re part of a very very tiny minority, even though you still support the system in a minor degree.

As far as I´m aware, and you can correct me if I´m wrong, most people couldn´t care less, and are active co-participants in this crime against humanity.

Most of them aren´t even aware of their participation, like the guy I saw the other day, in a socialist protest, with a Che Guevara t-shirt, filming it with his iPhone.


I'm afraid you might be entirely correct about that. I can't prove it, but it does indeed seem to be the case.

Furthermore I agree with your 'diagnosis' (if you will), that consumerism is really the underlying issue. The toxic monkey on the world's collective back. That is one of the primary issues that needs to be combated.

They say that acknowledging the problem is the first step, but in this case it certainly isn't the most difficult. Try as I might, I can't come up with any sure-fire way to exorcise this demon. That is the point in which we're taken back to the idea you pointed to earlier, that of societal deconstruction... Whether it is out of stubbornness or naivete, I remain insistent that we find another way.

I believe that the right words at the right time can change someone's life. The trick is to convert that to a large-scale movement, which can derail this way of life safely. Again at the risk of sounding naive, I want to believe there can be a social/cultural/spiritual movement that accomplishes such a lofty goal.

Leaving this kind of on a tentative/unresolved note... apologies to Fred if this tangent has gone too far off topic.

[Fred Steeves]

2) It's putting the cart before the horse. Having that kind of power in the hands of insufficiently raised conscious awareness is a recipe for disaster, and very likely responsible for the destruction of many earlier civilazations much like ours today. Quite possibly even planets.


This is fear porn. I assume you mean so-called "zero-point" technology, not photovoltaic or magnetohydrodynamic or other "free energy" generators.

Now Dennis, if I were a fear based guy, do you think I ever would have dared initiate this thread? HELLLLLLL NO! (LOL)

And yes, I'm referring to zero point energy. The energy that appears to be the underlying source of all universal energy, both physical and non physical.



Fred, you know I love you bro, and I do get that you are trying to relate that our personal development should be sought internally not externally.

I love you too man. :)


But you blended that with disavowing our physical needs and solely looking inward for all development. This is true for spiritual, emotional, and mental development; not true for physical.


As above so below,
As within so without.

We don't even remember who we really are yet Dennis, or what we are capable of.




I only eat one and a half meals a day, I walk whenever possible, I go through a small, local bank, and I don't own any Apple products. Yes, I'm sure at some point down the line I own a product which has caused suffering, even if it is just the laptop I'm using right now.

Does that really make me just as culpable as the owner/operator of the sweatshops, which drive their employees to suicide? Or the company which intentionally purchases products from the aforementioned sweatshop solely because their products are cheaper, and thus reinforcing the inhumane practice?

We all have blood on our hands Freed Fox, and there are no excuses. This runs very deep.

[RMorgan]

Hey folks,

I was thinking about it here...

You know what? Before we can jump to a new paradigm, with free energy or not, we must first admit we have a problem here, a serious one.

Do you know those AA meetings, where they say that the first step to start curing an addiction, is to admit that you´re an addicted?

Yeah. That´s it. We, as a race, are addicted to consumerism and the conveniences provided by the system, and that´s why we are trapped in this mess for so long and most people don´t do nothing about it besides complaining.

We´re addicted to cars, internet, super-markets, shopping malls, credit-cards, money, electronic gadgets, cellphones and much more stuff, and most people don´t even want to think about living without these things.

Damn it, people go to war, sacrificing their lives, to protect this way of life.

This is some kind of love and hate relationship between a junkie and a drug dealer; Sometimes the junkie hates the dealer, sometimes he even wants to get rid of him, however, he needs him to get his daily fix.

He may start buying from another dealer, or even find a way to get his fix for free, but it doesn´t change the fact that he´s an addict, a junkie.

So, to sum up, I don´t believe we´ll be able to fix this mess, with or without free energy, before we go through a radical social rehab process.

I just hope we can find a way to go through this rehab process by ourselves, not forced by a social economical collapse, a major natural disaster, WWIII or something like that.

Raf.

[Freed Fox]

I would supplement/modify your statement Raf, just a bit.

IMO, there is a major issue regarding priorities. The problems of the poor are not the problems of the rich. It seems that more and more of our resources and inventive ingenuity is channeled strictly toward what is profitable, and not pursuits which would actually improve the lives of the common man.

[Dennis Leahy]

...IMO, there is a major issue regarding priorities. The problems of the poor are not the problems of the rich. ...
Man, oh man, did Freed Fox just hit on the truth. Most of us are so steeped in "stuff" that we have lost touch with the billions upon billions of people for which "abundance" - incredibly joyous abundance - would be clean drinking water, indoor plumbing, toilets, toilet paper, and even one nutrient-dense, nutritious meal a day.

We need a new measuring stick that includes 7 billion people (and 777 septillion other life forms), and not just measure by ourselves. If and when "free energy" is implemented, I would hope that I am in the last half-billion people to ever even see a device. The inequity, the poverty, the conditions for most on this planet are abysmal, mind numbing, and soul desiccating. My vicarious joy in the implementation of free energy will come from knowing that all of the physical social issues crushing most of humanity have been solved - not because I got some new stuff to pile with my other stuff.

Thanks, Freed Fox, for that very insightful comment.

Dennis

[Fred Steeves]

I think the movie "Groundhog Day" with Bill Murray is a most excellent metaphor for this, and has a far greater message than it's generally given credit for. Even after finally exhausting the fight with his situation, and having a change of heart, he was still fighting. A different fight. There was one lesson he had yet to learn. The Law Of Allowance. The scenes with the old homeless man sum it up nicely.

He was going to die that night, whether Bill Murray ignored him, or went through heroic measures to save him. As the nurse said: "It was just his time".

The homeless man was also his teacher. As was everybody else he encountered, over and over and over again. Until he finally "got it".

7NjNOAncIlI

[Dennis Leahy]

Fred, I don't get it (sorry if I'm thickheaded.) I'm sure you have to agree that humankind is made up of the entire spectrum of every attribute a human can have, notably from completely selfish to completely selfless, and from spiritually unevolved to spiritually evolved. There really will never be "a time" when all of humanity is ready... for fire, or agriculture, or symphonies, or gunpowder, or the internal combustion engine, or the Internet, or zero point energy...

So is the "right time" when some percentage of humankind is over some threshold percentage with some attribute? Even that makes no sense, because there will always be a bad guy, a selfish guy, a sociopath. Maybe the percentage drops from 1% (which is supposedly the current percentage of sociopaths) to 0.1%, but there will still always be a bad guy, a selfish guy, a sociopath. What happens when they get hold of a match, or a way to genetically modify seeds so the next seeds will be sterile, or a gun, or a sidewalk full of people, or a computer virus, or the desire to use the energy from a zero-point generator to do harm?

So, it really is never going to be the right time, because there will alway be someone who will use good things for evil.

Conversely, it may always be the right time. Time for us to stop fighting the creative force, and to allow the creative force to continue creating. Time to accept that most of us have the responsibility to be vigilant for the few of us who wish to harm us with whatever is created.

Dennis

[Fred Steeves]

Well now you've gone and done it Dennis, and opened up a whole new can of worms. :unsure: My answer to that conundrum is almost worthy of a whole new thread, and none too popular as well...

[Carmody]

Consumerism is borne out of the body's prime directive to stay alive. A modern perversion of it, if you will. Easy enough to understand. No toys, no tricks, no new, then fears of loss, failing, dying, being at risk (and so on) come to mind.

An emotional push/drive from the depths of our human avatar, perverted by some aspects within humanity. The same deep drives that create tribal religions, social structure, wars and weapons. And more.


Free energy will 'cure' that insanity, overall, in the same way the western population push has dropped to a low compared to developing countries.

The trick is surviving the period of change.

The first generation of people from a developing country do, when emerging in a place with abundance, is that the first panicked generation over-breeds. And..over-consumes, if it is possible to do so. What is known as a 'bunker mentality'.

The next generation is less prone to this, as they have lived in a world of abundance. The third generation is largely cured of this. But the consumerism remains, as the system is set up for it.

When free energy comes, imagine it coming to people in Bangladesh, or rural India, for example. I wish to deny them nothing, today or tomorrow. But there is going to have to be a very steep learning curve. That must complete itself in the single generation, in the single decade, or less.

The save for this issue is other worlds, other dimensions, other beings, other races, other trimelines, a personal knowing of 'no death'.

Where's the problem?

Problem being is that the occupant of the avatar knows this but the avatar itself panics, as it KNOWS it is not going along for the ride, but it INSISTS that it is YOU and it INSISTS that it is in charge and it will FIGHT you to the DEATH in order to hold that line. since it is in charge of all your input and output systems, it can and will make a royal mess out of your 'life'. Life being a complex affair of driving or 'being' an avatar/dimensional.

At the same time as all these things, these realities impinge upon your awareness, you'll have to be dealing with the avatar flipping out to the point that your input/output will be so confused, you won't know one reality or moment from the next, or be able to make heads or tails of it.

Some people will be just fine. Many will flip out in the extreme.

[RUSirius]

Fred, I don't get it (sorry if I'm thickheaded.) I'm sure you have to agree that humankind is made up of the entire spectrum of every attribute a human can have, notably from completely selfish to completely selfless, and from spiritually unevolved to spiritually evolved. There really will never be "a time" when all of humanity is ready... for fire, or agriculture, or symphonies, or gunpowder, or the internal combustion engine, or the Internet, or zero point energy...

So is the "right time" when some percentage of humankind is over some threshold percentage with some attribute? Even that makes no sense, because there will always be a bad guy, a selfish guy, a sociopath. Maybe the percentage drops from 1% (which is supposedly the current percentage of sociopaths) to 0.1%, but there will still always be a bad guy, a selfish guy, a sociopath. What happens when they get hold of a match, or a way to genetically modify seeds so the next seeds will be sterile, or a gun, or a sidewalk full of people, or a computer virus, or the desire to use the energy from a zero-point generator to do harm?

So, it really is never going to be the right time, because there will alway be someone who will use good things for evil.

Conversely, it may always be the right time. Time for us to stop fighting the creative force, and to allow the creative force to continue creating. Time to accept that most of us have the responsibility to be vigilant for the few of us who wish to harm us with whatever is created.

Dennis

Yes Dennis, sounds very similar to a conversation I had earlier today! This is it in a nut shell and as Fred rightly said worthy of a whole other discussion.