What controls the hologram?

[observer]

Applying Quantum Theory To Understanding This Particular Reality


FOUNDATIONAL UNDERSTANDING:

In the world of quantum physics, matter does not exist unless it is being observed.

In other words, the smallest particles of an atom: protons, electrons, neutrons, etc. (quanta) only exist as matter when they are being observed. This fact of quantum physics has been shown to be a reproducible phenomenon in countless variations of a physics experiment known as The Double-Slit Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment), or Young's Interference Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment).

This Double-Slit Experiment has been re-tested in numerous physics labs all over the planet, always with the same results - objective results. The conclusions of this experiment are, just as previously stated, "matter does not exist unless it is being observed".

Otherwise, in the quantum world, matter exists only as an Infinite Potential Of Wave Form, in what quantum physicists know as the Quantum Field.

In this particular reality the interpreter of this "Infinite Potential Of Wave Form" in question is the human brain. The human brain has been shown to be nothing more than an electromagnetic "wave form" receiver. Quantum Physics demonstrates to us that, without the human brain there to observe, there would be nothing more than an Infinite Potential Of Wave Form - the Quantum Field.

In the philosophy of Metaphysics this Quantum Field can be related to what has been historically called, "The Astral Plane". There are many individual interpretations of how the Astral Plane is constructed: levels, divisions, sub-levels, etc. (subjective) The evidential trail from Quantum Physics indicates there is only an Infinite Potential Of Wave Form beyond our human brain's perception. (objective) Anything lying outside of the Quantum Field (hyperdimensionally) is nothing more than a spiritually derived "belief system". (subjective)

Each and every individual's experience within this particular reality is a wholly subjective interpretation of the Quantum Field Of Infinite Potential. The fundamental concept of "what is real" is skewed by each individual's perception of this Infinite Potential Of Wave Form, or converting electromagnetic wave signals into matter.

One very popular model within the world of quantum physics is that this particular reality (universe) is nothing more than an holographic projection. In other words, we are individually and collectively dwelling within a holographic movie. This theory has been popularized by Michael Talbot in his book, The Holographic Universe (http://www.amazon.com/Holographic-Universe-Revolutionary-Theory-Reality/dp/0062014102).

It is also being theorized that this holographic projection is being controlled by "something" on the other side of the Quantum Field (outside of this particular reality). Otherwise, each individual's interpretation of the holographic projection would be different from any other's interpretation. This is simply not the case. In comparing apples to apples, everyone perceives an apple in a similar fashion, as is the case with all perceptions of elemental atomic structure within this particular reality.

Therefore, the evidence leads us to the conclusion: there is something hyperdimensionally controlling this holographic projection - down to the smallest possible detail, i.e. the quanta, or atomic structure itself.

There are many variants of this holographic universe model. If one studies the creation mythology from antiquity, one would have to agree, there is an overwhelming amount of material indicating this "something" takes the form of a reptilian species in an overwhelming number of incidents - leading one to conclude something reptilian is in control of the holographic projector.

Many of the members come into these forums and give their personal testimonies of individual Astral Experiences in an effort to somehow prove this sort of evidence to be true.

It is not my intention to discredit any particular personal testimony as true or false. Each and every individual is operating on a 'program' unique to that individual. Rather, my intention is to show the difference between the scientific method and faith-based (theological/spiritual) methods of discovery.

So, in an effort to bring some understanding to this true v. false debate, it is important for the members to come to a common understanding regarding subjective and objective evidence. It is impossible to determine - from an objective point of reference - facts of this particular reality, from pages of personal testimonies.

There is no conclusive evidence (objective) to indicate the Astral Experiences being reported by many members are anything more than clever manipulations of telepathic thoughts. The historic record concerning the reliable nature of telepathic thoughts (prophecy) is riddled with false declarations - from the most remote antiquity up until the present time.

If something outside of this reality is controlling structure, down to the smallest quantum particle making-up an atom, through the quantum field and into this particular reality, than it isn't a far stretch to assume even individual telepathic thought is being manipulated within this holographic projection.

Therefore, from the evidence being offered by quantum physics, no one within this holographic movie can escape the hologram. This leads to the conclusion that there is, in fact, a matrix outside of the Quantum Field (Astral Plane) from which one cannot go beyond.

The following is a re-editing of a popular image that can be found in the reference links (below).

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b509/POV_At_Exit_0/HolographicUniverseRevised_zpsf7e1062c.png

SUMMERY:

From the historic record, gleaned from around the world, the evidence clearly indicates an hyperdimensional reptilian life-form is in control, or at least, in partial control of the holographic projector on the other side of the Quantum Field in which this particular reality exists. One can find references to Reptilian life-forms in the creation mythologies wherever one looks. These Reptilian life-forms were responsible for the creation of the Biological (organic) Robotoid Species known as the Archons, described to us from the Nag Hammadi Text, and sealed in clay jars, unmolested by any mortal power structure until their rediscovery in 1945.

The Nag Hammadi Library was left behind for Humanity to re-discover by the Nazarene Essenes, an ascetic off-shoot of Hebrews that practiced a faith much more resembling Zoroastrianism than Old Testament Judaism. These Nazarene Essenes were the original Christians, or Gnostic Christians who were so viciously persecuted by the Roman Empire. Four hundred years after the genocide of the Gnostic Christians a new Christian Religion was successfully codified into what we now know as the New Testament, and is the basis for the Holy Roman Empire (Catholic) Church - the old Roman Empire redefined.

They Are Very Clever At What They Do....

Once any individual begins interpreting any objective data, those interpretations become a subjective understanding and unique to only that individual. Therefore, what I have summarized (above) are nothing more than my own personal subjective observations. Synthesize them into your belief system in whatever fashion that suits your perceptions (free will).

RESEARCH RESOURCES:


Part One of the Holographic Universe Workshop -
http://www.holographicuniverseworkshops.com/partone.html

~add edit~
Note: some links were removed at this location.

Please Take Note:
Beyond the middle of Part Three of this series, the producer of the workshop begins making his own subjective interpretations of the data presented in the first three parts. His conclusions are only one possibility and remain theory.

~add edit~
The Experiment That Debunked Materialism -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xKUass7G8w
Please Take Note:
This video is being inserted in place of some earlier links to demonstrate the physics lab experiment that led to the Holographic Universe Model. Description of that experiment is in a "cartoon" format to make very complex procedures more understandable for everyone.

Talbot, Michael - The Holographic Universe (Thinking Allowed) -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-r3pW-G5BI

A mandatory primer on the reptilian presence is:
David Icke, The Biggest Secret -
http://davidickebooks.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=12

Nag Hammadi Library -
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/nag_hammadi/contents.htm

[tnkayaker]

thanks Observer for an informative post, interesting and definitely resonates with me, gosh all this great info coming out recently , and in the recent year, just when i thought i understood how everything fits into place and the why's and what about this's i thought i had under my hat, then all the sudden i have to re-calculate lol , peace,dennis

[TraineeHuman]

Observer, you seem to believe in the scientific method as a source of certainty. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the writings of Descartes, who basically invented the entire scientific method in its modern form.

In the course of his formulation of the scientific method, Descartes took lengthy pains to make it very clear and obvious that the only knowledge of which we are certain is what today’s philosophers call “inter-subjective”. All inter-subjective knowledge or experience is subjective, but is also universal – the experience is exactly the same for each subjective experiencer. As Descartes explained, the only certain knowledge is inter-subjective.

However, I get the impression you believe that what is certain has to be objective. This is never true – unless you are misguidedly referring to something inter-subjective as being ”objective”. Consider the “objective knowledge” that comes from the theories of physics. Consider also the fact that a theory in physics is considered inadequate unless it is known to be falsifiable. Simple logic shows it is impossible for a theory to be falsifiable unless it is in fact false – though no-one may as yet have proved it to be false. Hence the “objective knowledge” that comes from any adequate theory in physics must be at least partly false – even though we don’t know which parts of it are false, or how badly false part or all of such "facts" that theory leads to really are.

[observer]

Observer, you seem to believe in the scientific method as a source of certainty. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the writings of Descartes, who basically invented the entire scientific method in its modern form.

In the course of his formulation of the scientific method, Descartes took lengthy pains to make it very clear and obvious that the only knowledge of which we are certain is what today’s philosophers call “inter-subjective”. All inter-subjective knowledge or experience is subjective, but is also universal – the experience is exactly the same for each subjective experiencer. As Descartes explained, the only certain knowledge is inter-subjective.

However, I get the impression you believe that what is certain has to be objective. This is never true – unless you are misguidedly referring to something inter-subjective as being ”objective”. Consider the “objective knowledge” that comes from the theories of physics. Consider also the fact that a theory in physics is considered inadequate unless it is known to be falsifiable. Simple logic shows it is impossible for a theory to be falsifiable unless it is in fact false – though no-one may as yet have proved it to be false. Hence the “objective knowledge” that comes from any adequate theory in physics must be at least partly false – even though we don’t know which parts of it are false, or how badly false part or all of such "facts" that theory leads to really are.

Thank you TraineeHuman for your input.

As I clearly expressed in the final statement of the OP, this caveat:



"Once any individual begins interpreting any objective data, those interpretations become a subjective understanding and unique to only that individual. Therefore, what I have summarized (above) are nothing more than my own personal subjective observations. Synthesize them into your belief system in whatever fashion that suits your perceptions (free will)."

Essentially, these words carry the same meaning of what you are stating in your comment.

I would like to point-out to the members that, at the dawn of the scientific revolution, Descartes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes) was considered to be more a philosopher than he was a scientist.

My intentions for this thread are to expose and discuss the technical aspects of how this particular reality functions, i.e. the mechanics of the mechanism driving our existence here. I intend to show through the window of quantum physics the discoveries many of the members may not be aware of.

I think we can both agree there is no true v. false resolution, in that, we are all living within our own personal universe. Since, however, this is a technical discussion, I would prefer the members not fill the pages with personal testimonies regarding their individual astral experiences.

I would also invite any members to review the Resource Material listed at the bottom of the OP, for all of the evidence offered lends credibility to the thesis being presented.

[Conchis]

Maybe also add the article in the OP of this thread to the basic research that you've listed. This article, at least to me, added a huge depth to the rabbit hole we chase. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54101-Quantum-shadows-The-mystery-of-matter-deepens&p=614201&highlight=slit+experiment#post614201

[araucaria]

The notion of a ‘separate reality’ suggests a transcendent, hence seemingly insoluble problem. If it is in fact soluble it must have an immanent aspect upon which we can act from within the hologram. In other words, if outside influence is possible on the inside (the projector on the projection), this implies the possibility of inside influence on the outside (the projected manipulating the projector).

Part of what this would involve is tuning in to the immaterial aspect of this matrix and altering it from that angle. This is the aim and operativity of the spiritual approach being enacted on this forum and elsewhere.

Another part is being attentive to the material aspect, notably its imperfections (for it is far from perfect) and acting to change it in certain ways. This is where the scientific approach comes into play.

Combining both aspects, you have the ‘thought experiment’ which, apart from being used by scientists, is a staple of art and literature for example. Say you write a story about a holographic situation, all you have is an elaborate thought in concrete form (a book) but one that can explore the nuts and bolts of how this might actually work.

As it happens, there is a novella written in 1940 by the Argentinian writer Adolfo Bioy Casares, ‘The Invention of Morel’. The rest of this post is both a summary of the novel and my personal analysis of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invention_of_Morel

Morel is an engineer implementing holographic technology at an island property to immortalize his friends: unfortunately the process involves some harmful radiation that will kill them all. This filming process is followed, post mortem, by an automatic playback triggered by the occasional spring tide.

Twenty years later, the narrator is caught in what is a dual reality: his own reality where he is alone, and another where he is not. Being a fugitive from the law, he at first thinks he is being spied on. Then he sees for example people diving into a long disused swimming pool crawling with vipers and such: they were of course filmed years earlier, when the place was inhabited. Another strange feature is two suns, one the real sun, the other the holographic image. Much of the story is devoted to his coming to an understanding of what is happening to him. He has his basic normal reality, and then now and again this hologram superimposed on the original site. As he catches different points on this spacetime continuum in different places on the island, his perception is always partial and in random order; the jigsaw puzzle is a precise analogy for his investigation. Eventually he finds himself in a room at the same time as Morel has gathered everyone together to explain the situation. Morel is not worried about filming himself, as he has not long to live anyway.

Hence the narrative, which is already a metanarrative – it is devoted to explaining itself from an outsider’s viewpoint – contains this other metanarrative stating the insider’s viewpoint. Whether from the perpetrator’s or from the repairman’s angle, the story involves both transcendent and immanent elements. The technology is imported from elsewhere, but the whole show is stage-managed by the inventor as one of the actors. Then his audience of one decides to become involved in order to transform the whole narrative, at the cost of his own life. This means discovering the machinery and implementing a so far unused feature: a rerecord function whereby he can play his additional well-rehearsed part.

The machine-room is rather special in that it is the only place on the island that is not holographically recorded, and yet it is protected behind walls that are holographically recorded. This means that he can knock a hole in the wall to get in, but when the machine comes on with him inside, he cannot get out again, because the holographic illusion of the intact wall is perfectly solid. To restore the hole, he has to work out how to switch off the machine, which he somehow does through a stroke of inspiration perhaps brought on by sensory deprivation.

Hence there is a central immaterial mystery governing the activating or otherwise of all this hardware. We can only take this as read without trying to understand, and realize that the pseudo-transcendence is actually included within the illusion and relies upon the illusion for its protection. When the narrator becomes an active protagonist, stepping outside of the illusion into the machine room, he can divert the machine to his own purpose, and so on triggering the rerecord feature he can climb out through the hole in the wall, then come back and switch the machine off again.

After that the hologram continues to exist, but with a whole new storyline. The basis of the action had previously been Morel’s unrequited love for Faustine and her avoidance of him. This forced separation is the motive behind Morel’s making of the fatal film, which ultimately involves replacing a flesh-and-blood person with a holographic image; but it has left a gap for the narrator to fill and express his own love for her. As he does so, he has the opposite effect, bringing her back to life in the sense that his presence gives new meaning to hers, to the point that he fancies that this non-physical form in turn on some level becomes aware of him.

So we see how the whole situation is folded inside out. The inventor is reduced to being a minor actor in his own film; he is caught up in and devoured by his own illusion. The narrator commandeers the technology and rewrites the scenario with himself playing a leading role in what is potentially no longer an illusion but the reality of the novel he has composed.

This is of course just a novel, naturally limited in its scope, but as a thought experiment it provides food for thought notably with regard to the idea that we are both inside and outside of the illusion, and thus able to act to change it both from the inside and from the outside.

[observer]

Please click-on the forwarding icon to review the content of araucaria's comment #6.
Thank you araucaria for your input.

Allegory is a marvelous teaching tool. Learning complex principles through the art of science fiction writing is a stimulating way of conveying often abstract concepts. By your review, I don't see, however, how one can speculate the, "breaking through a physical wall" into some imaginary projection room, when the holographic projector being discussed in this thread is hyperdimensional in nature, and therefore not beyond a material wall, per se, however separated from this particular reality behind the advanced technology of a limiting matrix.

Arthur C. Clarke, perhaps one of the greatest science fiction writers of our time, once said:

" Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

The evidence being presented within this thread would suggest the "highly advanced technology" being described is that of an hyperdimensional species with the design purpose of controlling this particular reality with a more sinister intent.

As another excellent allegory to this conclusion, may I offer the following video for the edification of the interested members:

[The link was deleted to the full length movie "They Live" because it is no longer available on YouTube]

Of course, this too is merely speculative science fiction....

[araucaria]

@observer, as I said, physical analogies have their limits. The vertical line in your diagram is another physical analogy, marking separation between what you term 'this particular reality' and a hyperdimensional beyond.

To strip away the metaphor, my point was that this is an inadequate description of what is going on here. We are the embodiment of hyperdimensionality within this particular illusion - we are both on the inside and on the outside.

[aranuk]

As of yet I have only watched part 1. What is not clear, is that in the double slit experiment, when not observed, where is the particle aimed at? Is it aimed at the middle solid section between the slits or is it aimed at one of the slits? Another part is not clear is that when the parrticle IS observed where was it aimed at? Was it the left slit or the right?

Stan

[Youniverse]

Isn't this thread another way of asking the classic, old question, "if a tree falls in the forest...?" You might find Ayako Sekino's(on youtube) description of how reality is manifested helpful. I know I did. So one might say, without a particular consciousness there to observe, is there really anything there at all? If we assume that there are variant levels of consciousness in all that exists in the physical realm, what happes or is experiened when a human isn't there to observe it? And if we are all creating our reality from moment to moment, through this filter we of personality/ego/subjectivity, what is it really that is doing the creating? Since this thread is taking a more scientific approach I won't get into a debate about God or whatever you choose to call her(as I could just tell you that God controls the hologram but that probably wouldn't be accurate either). IMHO it is consciousness itself when projected through ones own personality or ego that controls the hologram. I suppose we could also say 'the soul' controls the hologram to some degree since it sets the parameters for ones life experience in the material realm. But what it comes down to, for me, is our ability to freely choose what it is that we SEE there, based on the beliefs/belief systems we hold. So it could be said it is what you choose or have chosen to believe that controls the hologram. But that's not how it is, just how I see it so far through my belief system :).

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Probably jumping in where I shouldn't, but.....!

In our dreams, there are buildings, cities, other people. We feel emotions, fear, love, excitement, etc. Who created all of that? Was it not our own mind? Where do all those people, buildings and other objects go when we wake up?

Is it possible that this reality is the same? .. I realize this reality has a past and a continuance, unlike our sleep-dream state, but could that be just because it's a different dimension of creation. Perhaps in the next dimension (if there is one) we will be able to create parallel realities at the same time that we are aware of.

We all talk about waking up. What does that mean? Does it just mean waking up to what the PTB are doing to us - or does it mean waking up from this denser dream state to another. Just some thoughts from a different perspective.

[donk]

I realize this reality has a past and a continuance

Some would say, there is no past and future, only now--and that time is contrived and/or an illusion

As to waking: I take it to mean understanding the mechanics/causality/origin of the "creation" of which you speak.

[observer]

@observer, as I said, physical analogies have their limits. The vertical line in your diagram is another physical analogy, marking separation between what you term 'this particular reality' and a hyperdimensional beyond.

To strip away the metaphor, my point was that this is an inadequate description of what is going on here. We are the embodiment of hyperdimensionality within this particular illusion - we are both on the inside and on the outside.

How correct you are, araucaria.

Physical analogies are limited by the evidence one can present to justify their existence. Which is precicesly the purpose of this thread - presenting physical evidence.

Consider the global matrix system that has been discussed and theorized-over; movies, books, etc., all the way back to antiquity, to the point of ad nauseam. There can be little doubt there is some sort of physical matrix established around this planet.

Now.... some say this is for our good, others say it has much more sinister designs. The fact that it exists, by the evidence that has been presented to show the existence of such, goes to the evidential trail that, I would suggest, brings one to the conclusion of a physical limiting barrier between this particular reality and an 'hyperdimensional beyond'.

In the case of the diagram, this barrier/matrix is represented by a "vertical line".

With regard to your speculation that, "we are both on the inside and on the outside", although I would concur with this conclusion, it remains a theoretical proposition. There is no conclusive evidence to support that claim, other than personal testimonies, to which, we are attempting to keep this thread clear.

I welcome all objective evidence to support any theory.

Research Resource:

Dr. Joseph P. Farrell, The Grid of the Gods -
http://www.amazon.com/Grid-Gods-Afte.../dp/1935487396

Red Ice Radio Interview w/Dr. Joseph P. Farrell, The Grid of the Gods
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxQ1i-eKzw8[COLOR="red"][COLOR="red"]

[observer]

Click-on forwarding icon to see the content of aranuk's comment #9

Keep watching Stan. All your questions are covered in the three workshop videos.

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see the content of Youniverse's comment #10.

If you were to follow the Holographic Workshop series I referenced in the OP, Youniverse, you will see these are the very same conclusions the producer of that workshop has come to.

As I said in the OP:



"Please Take Note:
Beyond Part Three of this series, the producer of the workshop begins making his own subjective interpretations of the data presented in the first three parts. His conclusions are only one possibility and remain theory.

It is the intention of this thread to deal only with objective evidence.

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see the content of Ba-ba-Ra's comment #11

An excellent point Ba-ba.

It is my conclusion, from the evidence, that we are all being telepathically influenced - from both hyperdimensional sources, and from here within this particular reality. The evidence will indicate this telepathic influence dates all the way back to the Dawn of Man, and is included up to the present through the clever manipulation of electromagnetic frequencies by the Global Elite.

There is a vast amount of evidence to support this conclusion, all one need do is search-engine for the documents. Here's one to point you in the right direction:

Research Resource:
Dr. Barrie Trower - 30 Minute Reality Update -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdB-tbzJSrk

[aranuk]

I now have watched all the parts. The thing that gets me is that there seems to be a concensus from all the various VIP scientists here is that there is no objective reality. What I think they are not taking into consideration is the fact that there is an objective reality at least 99.9999% or thereabouts with most things in the world. If I have visited any great historical site on the planet I bet if I described it to you who have also been there we would be able to agree that we had both visited that place. I have seen the Eifel Tower and so has someone else. We both may be able to describe that the 34th step going upstairs still needs to be repaired as it creeks when you stand on it. You know what I'm trying to say here. Most of the things of this world are objective realities shared by us all. It is only the minute details that are subjective. I like the look of the Eifel Tower as I am an engineer and you are not and you think it is a waste of steel. We do agree it is there in Paris don't we. That is objective reality. It should at least be taken into consideration. I cannot help thinking that there is a source they say that is delivering 6 billion different types of holographs to each individual on Earth seperately and co-incidentally all the 99.999% of reality is being delivered to our brains.

Stan

[observer]

This comment is in reply to Stan's comment #17:

This is very observant of you Stan. This is the exact reason I started this thread. As I stated in the OP:


"It is also being theorized that this holographic projection is being controlled by "something" on the other side of the Quantum Field (outside of this particular reality). Otherwise, each individual's interpretation of the holographic projection would be different from any other's interpretation. This is simply not the case. In comparing apples to apples, everyone perceives an apple in a similar fashion, as is the case with all perceptions of elemental atomic structure within this particular reality.

Therefore, the evidence leads us to the conclusion: there is something hyperdimensionally controlling this holographic projection - down to the smallest possible detail, i.e. the quanta, or atomic structure itself."

While most quantum physicists are defining the mechanics, they are missing this very significant detail.

I believe the physical evidence also leads one to the conclusion that the 'something' which is controlling the holographic projector is reptilian, and hyperdimensional.

[lookbeyond]

Hi Observer, do you believe there is something greater in existence than the reptilians and should we realise their manipulation be able to access this,will it take a collective recognition of manipulation or is it possible to go it alone- thx lookbeyond

[observer]

This comment is in response to lookbeyond's post #19.

Thank you for your input, lookbeyond.

As to my belief system, I tend to favor the theology that ended with the Cathar, but had its roots thousands of years back into remote antiquity and was expressed by Zoroaster. I believe there are two deities at work within this particular reality

However, it has become abundantly clear - from the evidence - that the God of Love (expressed as Amor, by the Cathar, or "My Father In Heaven", by the Nazarene Essenes) has very little to do with this particular reality.

The evidence will show, what dwells within this particular reality has been described as "The Fallen". I believe, to the greatest extent, this includes most incarnates dwelling here. Of course, there are a minority of exceptions to that conclusion. I would suggest this is the foundational reason a physical matrix grid exists around this planet.

I also believe there will be no change to the current circumstances until the majority of the Mass of Humanity awaken to the reality of this control mechanism.

I come to these conclusions based on the physical evidence.

[Freed Fox]

The evidence will show, what dwells within this particular reality has been described as "The Fallen". I believe, to the greatest extent, this includes most incarnates dwelling here. Of course, there are a minority of exceptions to that conclusion. I would suggest this is the foundational reason a physical matrix grid exists around this planet.


Thanks for this thread, observer. Very interesting to ponder. I will have to delve into the related materials which I have not read before in the coming days.

I may be wrong, but wouldn't it be folly to assume that anything at all can be known or understood about the extra/multi-dimensional beings in control, or indeed anything outside of the illusion/hologram itself? Yes, there are creation myths which seem to address this and many of them correlate, but is this in any way reliable? Would it not serve the objective controllers best to instill false notions about what lies beyond?

What comes to mind when reading this, and I think you may agree from what I've quoted above; does it not seem feasible that this environment is some type of prison or correctional facility? I personally feel that such a conceptualization fits pretty well.

Also, up until your last post, I got the impression that you would argue that nothing outside can be influenced or perceived from within the hologram. However, you then added that "there will be no change to the current circumstances until...". So I'm wondering, did you mean to imply that some influence or effect can be had on the control mechanism, or were you referring more to tangible changes on the nature of the holographic 'reality' itself?

Thanks, and apologies for not having any objective evidence of my own to supply.

[Finefeather]

Here is something which IMO is a lot closer to the truth than anything I have ever heard by those who just have not had the actual experience.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTq0xjJaWkw

[lookbeyond]

Thanks Observer, i can relate.

Thanks Ray, look forward to watching the vid,

Kind Reguards lookbeyond

[Cristian]

Hi Finefeather,

Interesting video. You also agree with the religious aspects of this video?

[observer]

Click on forwarding icon to see the content of Freed Fox's comment #21.

Thank you for the interesting questions, Freed Fox.

Allow me, first of all, to state that I don't have all the answers. I may not even have any of the answers. I don't believe any entity has ever appeared within this particular reality, with all of the answers. I have dedicated my entire adult life to searching for the physical evidence that would support the conclusions that have been presented, here in this thread. Collecting that physical evidence is what this thread is about. I reiterate, that would be physical (objective) evidence, and not personal testimonies (subjective) types of evidence.

I have long contended that the Mass of Humanity has been lied to - since the dawn of man. Any study of the records (from antiquity to the present) will bear-out this conclusion.

I do find it synchronous that the majority of the creation mythologies from around the globe mention reptiles (in some form or another) having had a function in each of those mythologies. This fact alone has to count for something. It cannot be accounted to coincidence.

As to your observation that this reality is some sort of prison, the evidence to this fact is conclusive. Third density is generally a "gross physical plane". The evidence is clear that this particular reality is in a state of 'lock-down' and separated from the rest of Creation.

It will be obvious to many of the members that we are dwelling in some level of Hell - in a Living Hell perhaps. We are dwelling here among "The Fallen". Some among us are here to assist with others release, to what end, I can only speculate, therefore will not comment.

And finely, it is clear some individuals may have the ability to extract themselves from this Living Hell, however, only by educating the Mass of Humanity to the nature and mechanics of the control mechanism will the prison gates be unlocked. Such an unlocking may, or may not be a benefit to the rest of Creation.

It is within this conundrum that we might discover the reason for the existence of this particular reality.

[Finefeather]

Hi Finefeather,

Interesting video. You also agree with the religious aspects of this video?

Hi Chris82
If you are referring to the way the message is being put across, with regard to conversing with Jesus and the Archangels etc...I would say that much of this is related to their current path or belief.
This by no means places it in any bad or doubtful bracket. We all see what we see in these realms what best relates to each of our own thinking.
When I enter these realms...from my point of view...I see very similar, and often identical things.

[CD7]

Well isn't tht the Gazillion dollar question....if there's one constant I've observed here...one BIG known...is tht noone knows shyt but will think/talk about it for the rest of there life

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see the content of Finefeather's comment #22.

I also write this comment in response to Finefeather's comment #26.

Ray, my brother,

It is with Love in my heart that I respond to your video.

Much of what is said in that video sounds credible. An extensive study of Eastern Religion will reveal much of what is being said about the "Levels of the Heavens" beyond this particular reality. Additionally, there is a vast amount of credible evidence supporting the concepts of a demonic and angelic presence here within this particular reality.

From the evidence offered by quantum investigation, however, there is no credible findings that support the existence of any sub-divisions of the "infinite field of wave-form", otherwise known as the 'quantum field'. That particular field is infinite in its potential. Any alleged subdivisions of the quantum field would be wholly in the perceptions of the frequency receiver - each individual human brain. As I have previously explained, this "quantum field" can be likened to what meta-physicists refer to as the "Astral Plane".

What lies beyond that quantum field is purely a matter of speculation. Let us not confuse the facts of this investigation.

Now.... it has long been my contention that the Astral Plane/Quantum Field is manipulated by entities from outside of that field. These "holographic discoveries" from the science of quantum physics, are confirming of this conclusion. This conclusion is also supported when one examines the records of theology - from antiquity to the present. As I have already stated, "The Mass of Humanity has been continuously lied to".

There is not a shred of personal testimony evidence that these individuals, giving their testimonies, are not responding to manipulated telepathic implants. Personal Testimonies are 'hearsay' evidence. Hearsay evidence is inadmissible in any legitimate investigation of the facts.

With regard to the "religious connotations" of the video you offered, I cannot see how any individual, reviewing that material, would be unable see through the dogma of a failed belief system.

Please, give us something that does not have the feces of 'brain manure' dangling from its coat-tails....

Again, I reiterate, with Love in my heart....

[observer]

Well isn't tht the Gazillion dollar question....if there's one constant I've observed here...one BIG known...is tht noone knows shyt but will think/talk about it for the rest of there life

Thank you for your observations CD7.

As the creator of this thread, I invoke my right to monitor the quality of comments offered here as evidence. This thread is intended as a serious investigation of evidential facts.

I would ask any member wishing to offer absolutely nothing to the evidence being investigated here, within this thread, to please refrain from making, or supporting these types of comments.

Thanking the members in advance for their consideration.... observer.

[CD7]

I am being serious...this is quite a serious matter don't u think?
It is truth...it is what's been going on and Is going on...in this holographic web

It's my observation, observer....all my life

Perhaps there is another way to change things, but from Wht I see we are insane as we do the same things over and over and over expecting different result?! Starting with the perspective of circular behavoir is a beginning...
It's not meant to make ur point/thread seem pointless....
Its an observation to take serious...

[Conchis]

So I posted this in another thread, but if you look at the information in the quantum level slit experiments that were most recently reported, it's like the universe is made up of one giant set of entangled particles so that if you alter the spin of one, it instantly alters the spin of all of the others. All of the machinations that the observers went through to set up the experiment only served to attach affinities to the sets of particles involved so that when the "experiment" was conducted the entangled particles indeed reported that their relationships had been established.

[Finefeather]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see the content of Finefeather's comment #22.

I also write this comment in response to Finefeather's comment #26.

Ray, my brother,

It is with Love in my heart that I respond to your video.

Much of what is said in that video sounds credible. An extensive study of Eastern Religion will reveal much of what is being said about the "Levels of the Heavens" beyond this particular reality. Additionally, there is a vast amount of credible evidence supporting the concepts of a demonic and angelic presence here within this particular reality.

From the evidence offered by quantum investigation, however, there is no credible findings that support the existence of any sub-divisions of the "infinite field of wave-form", otherwise known as the 'quantum field'. That particular field is infinite in its potential. Any alleged subdivisions of the quantum field would be wholly in the perceptions of the frequency receiver - each individual human brain. As I have previously explained, this "quantum field" can be likened to what meta-physicists refer to as the "Astral Plane".

What lies beyond that quantum field is purely a matter of speculation. Let us not confuse the facts of this investigation.

Now.... it has long been my contention that the Astral Plane/Quantum Field is manipulated by entities from outside of that field. These "holographic discoveries" from the science of quantum physics, are confirming of this conclusion. This conclusion is also supported when one examines the records of theology - from antiquity to the present. As I have already stated, "The Mass of Humanity has been continuously lied to".

There is not a shred of personal testimony evidence that these individuals, giving their testimonies, are not responding to manipulated telepathic implants. Personal Testimonies are 'hearsay' evidence. Hearsay evidence is inadmissible in any legitimate investigation of the facts.

With regard to the "religious connotations" of the video you offered, I cannot see how any individual, reviewing that material, would be unable see through the dogma of a failed belief system.

Please, give us something that does not have the feces of 'brain manure' dangling from its coat-tails....

Again, I reiterate, with Love in my heart....
Hi observer
My apologies if this was not suitable for your thread...let me know if you would prefer I remove it...
Love to you and take care
Ray

[Youniverse]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see the content of Youniverse's comment #10.

If you were to follow the Holographic Workshop series I referenced in the OP, Youniverse, you will see these are the very same conclusions the producer of that workshop has come to.

As I said in the OP:



"Please Take Note:
Beyond Part Three of this series, the producer of the workshop begins making his own subjective interpretations of the data presented in the first three parts. His conclusions are only one possibility and remain theory.

It is the intention of this thread to deal only with objective evidence.

Is your stated intention here even possible?

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see the content of Ba-ba-Ra's comment #11

An excellent point Ba-ba.

It is my conclusion, from the evidence, that we are all being telepathically influenced - from both hyperdimensional sources, and from here within this particular reality. The evidence will indicate this telepathic influence dates all the way back to the Dawn of Man, and is included up to the present through the clever manipulation of electromagnetic frequencies by the Global Elite.

There is a vast amount of evidence to support this conclusion, all one need do is search-engine for the documents. Here's one to point you in the right direction:

Research Resource:
Dr. Barrie Trower - 30 Minute Reality Update -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdB-tbzJSrk


First I want to say how much I'm enjoying this thread - and I hope we all continue in the spirit that none of us "knows" everything, yet we fervently want to break (I'll call it) the code.

Observer, I absolutely agree we are being controlled telepathically from within and without this reality. As for the within, I think most agree where that's coming from, it's the other dimensions that are unclear for most of us. IMO it's easy to determine which source of the two I've been ocassionally receiving from, as for me everything from the "outside" source has been altruistic.

IMO we are living in a split reality. On the one hand we believe the table we are learning on is stationary and solid. Conversely we believe what scientists are telling us that this table is made up of atoms, protons, etc., rotating at very fast speeds and there is a lot of space between these atoms. How do we reconcile this two beliefs? We don't try - we just accept both. I've always found that interesting.

Twice in my life ( 20 years apart) I had the experience while lying in bed talking to my husband - and everything disappearing. The first time I immediately panicked and everything immediately reappeared. The 2nd time I stayed with it for a while, but again eventually panicked that it wouldn't come back and immediately it did. Both times I felt we were just two consciousnesses communicating and there really wasn't anything else?

I realize I can't prove this to anyone else and really have never tried. But then I had to ask: why did everything material come back when I panicked. Is it fear of loss that keeps me 'stuck' here. And who then is projecting those images and why.

So far the only thing that has made sense to me is the theory of Zacharia Sitchin, The wingmakers, and Michael Tellinger's book 'Slave Species of the Gods', which is the ananuki theory, I'm sure most of you are aware of.

[Ba-ba-Ra]

I am being serious...this is quite a serious matter don't u think?
It is truth...it is what's been going on and Is going on...in this holographic web

It's my observation, observer....all my life

Perhaps there is another way to change things, but from Wht I see we are insane as we do the same things over and over and over expecting different result?!

Starting with the perspective of circular behavoir is a beginning...
It's not meant to make ur point/thread seem pointless....
Its an observation to take serious...

I understand what you're saying, but I believe that what we're doing here is exploring ways to do it different. Hopefully everyone on this thread recognizes how what we've been doing isn't working for most humans and we're trying to understand why. Is there someone or something holding us in this matrix and is there a way to break the chains that bind, so to speak.

[donk]

There is not a shred of personal testimony evidence that these individuals, giving their testimonies, are not responding to manipulated telepathic implants. Personal Testimonies are 'hearsay' evidence. Hearsay evidence is inadmissible in any legitimate investigation of the facts.


What evidence do you have that you are not being manipulated by telepathic implants?


From the evidence offered by quantum investigation, however, there is no credible findings that support the existence of any sub-divisions of the "infinite field of wave-form", otherwise known as the 'quantum field'.

And what is the tangible evidence that indivisible, infinite field is somehow controlled by someone/something outside of reality? I missed something...this logic is not computing for me, can you dumb it down a notch:


As I have previously explained, this "quantum field" can be likened to what meta-physicists refer to as the "Astral Plane".

What lies beyond that quantum field is purely a matter of speculation. Let us not confuse the facts of this investigation.

Now.... it has long been my contention that the Astral Plane/Quantum Field is manipulated by entities from outside of that field.

We're examining your contention that the quantum field is manipulated--right? This is what the investigation is about? Non-heresay evidence of your contention. I think your dismissal of Ray's "evidence" would be more accurate to state that it falls within the "manipulated piece of the field", correct? Or are you saying that somehow this field is infinite, yet a finite manipulator is somehow manipulating...what, all of it?

I guess my real issue is: how can your model NOT be sub-dividing the field--which you claim is infinite? I look at that model and that is what I see, a sub-division of reality....the "infinite" part...maybe I'm mixed up in the semantics?

[greybeard]

David Sereda : Theoretical Physics & Spiritual Wisdom


David Sereda Coast to Coast Published on 3 Mar 2013

Author and ufologist David Sereda returned to the show to illuminate the correlations between theoretical physics and spiritual wisdom. He pointed out how the duality of human nature-- such as good and evil, is mirrored in the atomic structure with its positive and negative components. Yet, light, he said, is the only particle in physics that is non-dual or "single" even though it does encounter inertia.

Relating this to the spiritual, Sereda noted that Jesus said: "If thine ye be single, thy whole body shall be filled with light." He also cited the paper of physicist Paul Dirac, The Equation of the Sea of Negative Energy (view Don Hotson's article --PDF file-- on this topic), as first presenting the discovery of "Singularity." In such a place, duality, time and conflict no longer exist, Sereda explained.

While individuals might move towards the Singularity through prayer and meditation, he said eventually there could be a physics model for such a concept, which could allow spaceships to enter into it and travel to locations in our galaxy much faster than the current speed of light.

Biography:

David Sereda's first aspiration in life was to become an astronaut. In 1968, David and a friend witnessed a UFO along with hundreds of other witnesses. After this experience, David grew up as a UFO enthusiast never living in doubt of the phenomena that has swept the world since the Roswell incident in 1947. His interest in space, religion, philosophy, astronomy and science led him on his career in related fields. He has worked deeply in high technology, on environmental and humanitarian issues and as a professional photographer for over 20 years. He has studied world religion, science, physics and paranormal psychology for over 25 years.

Wikipedia
Theoretical physics is a branch of physics which employs mathematical models and abstractions of physics to rationalize, explain and predict natural phenomena. This is in contrast to experimental physics, which uses experimental tools to probe these phenomena.

The advancement of science depends in general on the interplay between experimental studies and theory. In some cases, theoretical physics adheres to standards of mathematical rigor while giving little weight to experiments and observations. For example, while developing special relativity, Albert Einstein was concerned with the Lorentz transformation which left Maxwell's equations invariant, but was apparently uninterested in the Michelson--Morley experiment on Earth's drift through a luminiferous ether. On the other hand, Einstein was awarded the Nobel Prize for explaining the photoelectric effect, previously an experimental result lacking a theoretical formulation.




For me this is one of the most important videos I have watched.
It clarifies everything from the big bang to singularity.

Enjoy this

Chris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQkjryCflQU

[greybeard]

Nobody as such controls the hologram.
How can an illusion be controlled?

One way of looking at is that The Creator---Singularity-- knew all there was to know in an intellectual way but had not experienced what It knew.
That, being without form, could not experience taste, touch and all the things that go with being in a human form.

So Singularity became form ---time and space was needed.

The mechanics of this are very well explained including the hologram in the David Sereda audio I posted.

Singularity runs through everything --The sages experience it.
Singularity is formless, form both and beyond that-- beyond the understanding of human mind but it can be experienced in the human body as testified to by Jesus, The Buddha, Mohamed, Krishna and all enlightened beings throughout 1000 of years of human history.

Every thought word and deed changes the hologram---yet singularity is unaffected by this.

Chris

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see the content of CD7's comment #30

Forgive my earlier admonishment, CD7. The content of your comment #27, with all the texting abbreviations, and the simplicity of the comment led me to believe you were simply being 'smart'.

Of course, this topic has been bantered-about since the Dawn of Man. This unanswered question goes to the evidence that the Mass of Humanity has been continuously lied to, and is part of the foundational evidence being presented as such.

I hope every member reading this thread, will agree that we are now at the point in the evolution of man to move beyond all the failed theologies.

Thank you for your participation, and again.... sorry, observer.

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see Youniverse's comment #33.

Yes.... ;)

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see Ba-ba-Ra's comment #34.

Just a short note to thank you for your input. (in both of your most recent comments)

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see the content of donk's comment #36.

The litmus test that I apply to any interpretation which I encounter: I look to see if the material in question draws any suspicion or doubt on the status quo. The more the suspicion, or revelation to the inappropriate nature of that status quo, the more likely that interpretation is coming from a place of Love, and is not the manipulation of the controlling element. One is free to apply this test to anything I've stated here-in.

As to your question regarding:

"what is the tangible evidence that indivisible, infinite field is somehow controlled by someone/something outside of reality?"

In the "Holographic Workshop" series of videos linked in the OP, it is quite well explained how the Hologram is being manipulated, down to the quantum level, so that every individual existing within this particular reality, perceives the commonality we all share in precisely the same way. This is control of how we all perceive atomic structure itself, once the quantum field of infinite potential has been converted to matter by the human brain. If this is not a controlling manipulation, then perhaps I missed something.

I only had the time to watch Ray's video until about the half way mark, and the flood of comments caused me to reply to Ray in the way I did. I would rather Ray leave his video so that other members might get an idea of what this thread is not about.

What I was able to see regarding the video was a lot of personal testimony relating to personal experiences with the Astral Plane, and all the rhetoric was painted in the wash of a Christian point-of-view. This is just the sort of dogma we all must overcome to get to the foundations of the problem we all find ourselves within.

With regard to the divisions of the quantum field, I believe you might be confused with the terms being used.

Divisions of the levels of possible universes, outside of the Quantum Field/Astral Plane comes to us essentially from Eastern Philosophy. The Buddhist and Hindus make the claim there are twelve levels of Heaven. In String Physics, I believe, there are mathematic justifications for up to Ten Universes. [Heavens/Universes>>>>semantics] None of this is what we are talking about, here.

The Quantum Field/Astral Plane is only something surrounding this particular reality. It is infinite in potential. The only aspect of the formula that divides this infinite field of potential is each individual human brain.

I hope this clears-up any confusion....

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see the content of graybeard's comment #37.

Thank you for your input, Chris. I will have to watch this video several times to see if it has any application to what we are investigating, here in this thread.

In response to your comment in post#37, however:

"How can an illusion be controlled?"

I would implore you to watch the first three parts of The Holographic Workshop linked in the OP of this thread. It is clearly described in that workshop how this "Holographic Movie" (that which you refer to as an "illusion") is manipulated down to the way every individual perceives the commonality, in much the same way, of this particular reality.

[heyokah]

Think I won't be too far out of line with this one.

****

Here's David Icke on the most watched morning TV program in the UK !
(14th march 2013)

Although, David doesn't give a clear answer to the OP's question, he is doing very well.

****

"Who's projecting the projection?"......




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkQWjZD9Tf4

From this Thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56961-David-Icke-hits-the-mainstream).

[CD7]

I am being serious...this is quite a serious matter don't u think?
It is truth...it is what's been going on and Is going on...in this holographic web

It's my observation, observer....all my life

Perhaps there is another way to change things, but from Wht I see we are insane as we do the same things over and over and over expecting different result?!

Starting with the perspective of circular behavoir is a beginning...
It's not meant to make ur point/thread seem pointless....
Its an observation to take serious...

I understand what you're saying, but I believe that what we're doing here is exploring ways to do it different. Hopefully everyone on this thread recognizes how what we've been doing isn't working for most humans and we're trying to understand why. Is there someone or something holding us in this matrix and is there a way to break the chains that bind, so to speak.


Thankyou for ur response! Yes i understand wht u mean about exploring different ways and tht most on this thread recognize the circularness of it all. I suppose thts why i interjected...'breaking the chains tht bind' of whtever the pinnacle of it all is?, has not seen the light of day. Been searching for a way to go in a different direction...not certain if using words is the way to accomplish true awareness/knowledge as to me the language/ symbols/ communication are all apart of it (matrix/hologram)--which makes for an arduous task in revealing anything different

whoever/whtever is spinning the controls...its very dysfunctional...destructive (in my neck of the woods, anyway) The "reality" could b so different, not sure how we ended up in the house of horrors-made to look like candyland?

Like i said i did not mean to demean the thread, this subject is very interesting to me. I find the point that we have not truly realized our condition in all its modalities important--considering man has been asking questions for eons with no results

[observer]

Think I won't be too far out of line with this one.

****

Here's David Icke on the most watched morning TV program in the UK !
(14th march 2013)

Although, David doesn't give a clear answer to the OP's question, he is doing very well.

****

"Who's projecting the projection?"......




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkQWjZD9Tf4

From this Thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56961-David-Icke-hits-the-mainstream).

Thank you heyokah for posting this most relevant video. David has nailed the essence of what we are speaking of here in this thread.

I also might add to your comment:

"Although, David doesn't give a clear answer to the OP's question, he is doing very well."

....many of the questions that David didn't give a clear answer to, have no clear answer. One must apprise one's self of the provable facts in this matter and come to one's own conclusions, based on those facts.

Every member participating in this thread should take the time and listen to this video.

[Pay particularly close attention at what is being said beginning at the 5 min.: 10 sec. mark of the video. David's answer - "feeding" - to the question asked is the crux of this investigation.]

[heyokah]

.

[Pay particularly close attention at what is being said beginning at the 5 min.: 10 sec. mark of the video. David's answer - "feeding" - to the question asked is the crux of this investigation.]

Yes.... they operate on the fringes of our perception band !

[observer]

Yes.... they operate on the fringes of our perception band !


That too....

[CD7]

.

[Pay particularly close attention at what is being said beginning at the 5 min.: 10 sec. mark of the video. David's answer - "feeding" - to the question asked is the crux of this investigation.]

Yes.... they operate on the fringes of our perception band !


Ive seen similar comments before so i am not directing this question at anyone in particular....

If these beings cannot be seen..who's seen them? Are most of these beliefs accepted because someone is saying it in the big circuit? Or are they from personal experiences?


I no of noone who has witnessed/knows of these type beings in their experience...

[Delight]

....many of the questions that David didn't give a clear answer to, have no clear answer. One must apprise one's self of the provable facts in this matter and come to one's own conclusions, based on those facts.

I appreciate the conversation here.

From my belief system, the hologram being illusion as constructed IS GREAT... it means that it is just play and "no fault" FOR US.
How it is being used is to constrain and limit and is not anything like what we feel it could be...that means we are "outside" the game really.
We know something calls us to stretch and question.

For instance if we are to experience our own "power" safely, it needs a safe container to play in and learn from, and illusion that seems so real is excellent as a tool.
But if as David Icke says it was hacked to limit possibility, all the "opposite" of what it could be, it is used in a distorted way.
Then there is the possibility of the game containing the opportunity to hack the collective hack?
Take back the proper use of the illusion to learn about our creative powers in this "no fault" zone?

Feeling insecure and so anxious is what I have experienced as keeping me in the vibratory state of the "collective" treadmill.....
So, even though all may be a hologram in its manufacture, there are ways to redirect the appearance and undo the programmed perception we repeat and repeat.

I like David Icke so very much. He has affirmed over and over what I believe is true.
He has such confidence in the ability to unhook from the programmed hologram contents..
Simply to take a deep breath, not react, "think through" calmly and respond after we have "thought through to clarity" changes the seat of the place of our mind's position.

Then we shape the appearance consciously...Mind being the "Builder"
Disconnecting from the reptilian survival reaction is really basic to the process.

nbhbcnGNNaw

[donk]

I hope this clears-up any confusion....

It does to a certain extent, I just wonder:


The Quantum Field/Astral Plane is only something surrounding this particular reality. It is infinite in potential. The only aspect of the formula that divides this infinite field of potential is each individual human brain.



...when does the *** (existentialist? Humanist? not sure the word here...) view where nothing we percieve outside of ourselves is "real" become "dogma" or just another metaphor, no different essentially from "spiritual" beliefs?

[lookbeyond]

.

[Pay particularly close attention at what is being said beginning at the 5 min.: 10 sec. mark of the video. David's answer - "feeding" - to the question asked is the crux of this investigation.]

Yes.... they operate on the fringes of our perception band !

Is this fact? i ask because this is something i experience multiple times/day-lb

¤=[Post Update]=¤




.

[Pay particularly close attention at what is being said beginning at the 5 min.: 10 sec. mark of the video. David's answer - "feeding" - to the question asked is the crux of this investigation.]

Yes.... they operate on the fringes of our perception band !


Ive seen similar comments before so i am not directing this question at anyone in particular....

If these beings cannot be seen..who's seen them? Are most of these beliefs accepted because someone is saying it in the big circuit? Or are they from personal experiences?


I no of noone who has witnessed/knows of these type beings in their experience...

Hi Christine, i see these at my periphery everyday, my children have reported them spontaneously to me as well-lb

[observer]

[....snip]
nbhbcnGNNaw

I am reposting the David Icke clip you posted in your comment #50, Delight, to emphasize the importance of what this man is saying in this video. I would hope all those members following this thread will take the time to watch this video. Its content is most relevant to many of the questions being addressed here.

[CD7]

Hi Christine, i see these at my periphery everyday, my children have reported them spontaneously to me as well-lb

When u say u see these in ur periphery...wht are u seeing? Can u b more specific?

[lookbeyond]

Hi, during the course of the day,most notably when im at home on my own ( not ever driving or at work),there will be a fleeting movement of a non distinct shape enough to make me turn my head to look in that direction.I always thought everyone saw these things.For eg one day sitting here typing at computer (doorway in my right periphery about 1.5 metres away i saw in my peripheral vision a tall light shape about size of a person glide into the room, but of course there is no-one there, hope that helps, lookbeyond

[Youniverse]

Hi, during the course of the day,most notably when im at home on my own ( not ever driving or at work),there will be a fleeting movement of a non distinct shape enough to make me turn my head to look in that direction.I always thought everyone saw these things.For eg one day sitting here typing at computer (doorway in my right periphery about 1.5 metres away i saw in my peripheral vision a tall light shape about size of a person glide into the room, but of course there is no-one there, hope that helps, lookbeyond

I have those experiences quite a bit too actually. However, I wear glasses, so I have chalked it up to be light reflecting off the inside of my lenses sometimes and thus creating some sort of image. Or it could be the other thing you described, ha ha.

[Youniverse]

Think I won't be too far out of line with this one.

****

Here's David Icke on the most watched morning TV program in the UK !
(14th march 2013)

Although, David doesn't give a clear answer to the OP's question, he is doing very well.

****

"Who's projecting the projection?"......




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkQWjZD9Tf4

From this Thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56961-David-Icke-hits-the-mainstream).

Enjoyed this video very much and makes total sense to me. Notice the typical reactions of the show hosts to what David is saying. Fear of the unknown! this is all too normal. When there is so much fear and ignorance it is so difficult to get anything through to these people. Now I'm not saying David Icke has all the answers but he's certainly on the right track in my view. It's just a lack of understanding and missing key points of information. For if anyone knew what they were missing by staying asleep in the matrix they would laugh at themselves for being so foolish and do everything they could to explore more of themselves. The lady host felt what many of us may have felt at some point. She had this fear, IMO, that if she genuinely embraces the truth that her reality is an illusion, she will disintegrate and become nothing. Except that the opposite is actually the case. But once again I'm preaching to the choir, ha ha.

[Youniverse]

I was just curious if anyone on this thread have read Isis Unveiled and The Secret Doctrine by Madame Blavatsky? I haven't read them but I've read about them recently and they may or may not apply to the topic discussed here.

[heyokah]

[....snip]
nbhbcnGNNaw

I am reposting the David Icke clip you posted in your comment #50, Delight, to emphasize the importance of what this man is saying in this video. I would hope all those members following this thread will take the time to watch this video. Its content is most relevant to many of the questions being addressed here.

The more I listen to David Icke, the more meaning this simpe little anecdote gets.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2hx26hl.jpg

Thank you David Icke for connecting the dots.
Thank you observer for pointing it out.

[crosby]

Here is something which IMO is a lot closer to the truth than anything I have ever heard by those who just have not had the actual experience.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTq0xjJaWkw






Finefeather, this is excellent, thank you for posting. it has opened my eyes widely!
warmest regards, corson

[CD7]

Hi, during the course of the day,most notably when im at home on my own ( not ever driving or at work),there will be a fleeting movement of a non distinct shape enough to make me turn my head to look in that direction.I always thought everyone saw these things.For eg one day sitting here typing at computer (doorway in my right periphery about 1.5 metres away i saw in my peripheral vision a tall light shape about size of a person glide into the room, but of course there is no-one there, hope that helps, lookbeyond

It helps in tht i understand the "feeling" of something being there, and as of late have been experiencing the "periphery shadow" of something tht just went by. However in saying this i have not assigned a definitive title to these experiences as they are still very illusive and vague. I feel as though i would b jumping to conclusions to automatically assign these experiences to reptilian race?

In saying this i also have not felt fear/anxiety with these experiences in some cases it felt as though it was support rather then something trying to harm me...


-- to throw another perspective out there, which may have been brought up in the abyss of posts gone by...

It seems perplexing to me tht we discuss these beings invisible on the fringe feeding on us as somehow shocking and something to label as a monster when---HAS anyone noticed how many species we feed on??? And not only feed on but skin them alive for their fur and such like tht? So this line of thought seems interesting to me and at the same time confusing...

So we are feeding of other species and killing them even though we dont need this to survive...and perhaps something above us is doing the same thing?...Hummmm this is apart of the all encompassing hologram..OK now wht?

** would like to make clear i am not trying to prove anyone wrong here..just trying to get input from others to possibly get a more enlightening perspective on this issue tht i have seen alot of in these circuits

[observer]

The Avalon website is a place for the free exchange of information. As the creator of any thread any member can only suggest the topic in the thread be contained to a specific investigation. Each member has the right to challenge any information being presented. Respectful debate is welcome, derailing the thread is not. I would suggest, presenting channeled material as evidence in a debate intended to prove that the messages being interpreted from the Astral Plane are cleverly manipulated, would be using circular logic, and therefore a derailing argument to the intention of the thread.

Many of the members have expressed their belief that, "each individual creates his own reality". This theme runs through the channeled message (prophecy) all the way back to the Dawn of Man. I can reproduce records from antiquity that echo the same theme. This principal is influenced by Eastern Philosophy. This message sounds all so correct, i.e. "stop focusing on the evil and look only at the good". This interpretation is the basic theme of the message.

So then, explain to the members how that mother in Afghanistan, holding the body of her dead infant, sitting in the bombed-out rubble of her home.... explain to the members how her thoughts possibly created that reality.

Focusing on the mechanism that has created that reality is the point of this thread. I contend its source is in the manipulation of the Quantum Field/Astral Plane from an hyperdimensional source.

We are searching for answers in this thread, not the regurgitation of theologies dating back to the beginning of Man.


Wishing everyone Love.... for eternity.... observer

[Youniverse]

The Avalon website is a place for the free exchange of information. As the creator of any thread any member can only suggest the topic in the thread be contained to a specific investigation. Each member has the right to challenge any information being presented. Respectful debate is welcome, derailing the thread is not. I would suggest, presenting channeled material as evidence in a debate intended to prove that the messages being interpreted from the Astral Plane are cleverly manipulated, would be using circular logic, and therefore a derailing argument to the intention of the thread.

Many of the members have expressed their belief that, "each individual creates his own reality". This theme runs through the channeled message (prophecy) all the way back to the Dawn of Man. I can reproduce records from antiquity that echo the same theme. This principal is influenced by Eastern Philosophy. This message sounds all so correct, i.e. "stop focusing on the evil and look only at the good". This interpretation is the basic theme of the message.

So then, explain to the members how that mother in Afghanistan, holding the body of her dead infant, sitting in the bombed-out rubble of her home.... explain to the members how her thoughts possibly created that reality.

Focusing on the mechanism that has created that reality is the point of this thread. I contend its source is in the manipulation of the Quantum Field/Astral Plane from an hyperdimensional source.

We are searching for answers in this thread, not the regurgitation of theologies dating back to the beginning of Man.


Wishing everyone Love.... for eternity.... observer

It is beyond our typical reasoning skills and understanding to fathom how that Afghan mother could have drawn that experience to her. I also feel it is naive to say that it could be that simple(drawing that to her with her thoughts). An alternative explanation is that it is some kind of agreement inbetween incarnations to have that experience. And remember, many have said that to the soul, emotion is emotion regardless if its deemed negative or positive down at this level. A big example people often use is the holocaust. How can we conceive of a reason for drawing that sort of victim experience toward ourselves? Yet some of the most highly respected mystical sorces say that these are simply laws of the cosmos similar to laws of physics that most have forgotten about. I don't have the answer. The best I can do is point in certain directions that might lead one to an answer.

[Youniverse]

Hi, during the course of the day,most notably when im at home on my own ( not ever driving or at work),there will be a fleeting movement of a non distinct shape enough to make me turn my head to look in that direction.I always thought everyone saw these things.For eg one day sitting here typing at computer (doorway in my right periphery about 1.5 metres away i saw in my peripheral vision a tall light shape about size of a person glide into the room, but of course there is no-one there, hope that helps, lookbeyond

It helps in tht i understand the "feeling" of something being there, and as of late have been experiencing the "periphery shadow" of something tht just went by. However in saying this i have not assigned a definitive title to these experiences as they are still very illusive and vague. I feel as though i would b jumping to conclusions to automatically assign these experiences to reptilian race?

In saying this i also have not felt fear/anxiety with these experiences in some cases it felt as though it was support rather then something trying to harm me...


-- to throw another perspective out there, which may have been brought up in the abyss of posts gone by...

It seems perplexing to me tht we discuss these beings invisible on the fringe feeding on us as somehow shocking and something to label as a monster when---HAS anyone noticed how many species we feed on??? And not only feed on but skin them alive for their fur and such like tht? So this line of thought seems interesting to me and at the same time confusing...

So we are feeding of other species and killing them even though we dont need this to survive...and perhaps something above us is doing the same thing?...Hummmm this is apart of the all encompassing hologram..OK now wht?

** would like to make clear i am not trying to prove anyone wrong here..just trying to get input from others to possibly get a more enlightening perspective on this issue tht i have seen alot of in these circuits

Yes, in fact this is a common point in some of the channelled and otherwise 'divinely inspired' material I've come across. That being the hypocrisy of many of our fears and criticisms on this planet. I have heard this message from alleged ET communications regarding complaints from abductees. The abductors make a valid point that the kinds of practices they have employed when 'abducting' someone are very kind and gentle compared to what humans have done to many of the lifeforms on the planet. I reflect on this whenever I come across another thread of someone casting condemning judgement on ETs for their victimization. Alleged ET messages have also indicated that certain individuals being abducted had made some sort of contract with ET beings in another incarnation or even inbetween incarnations. They simply had forgotten about these agreements and so feel violated by unwelcome treatment.

At any rate, I go back to your original point because I feel it is a strong one. How can we criticize and blame for one second, that which we ourselves have done on a massive scale for eons of time? Many would be wise to reflect on this point when ranting about the crimes on humanity at the hands of the PTB. I ask, what kind of collective consciousness made these crimes possible or inevitable? How did we create the type of lower frequency energy that drew these experiences in? We are in the process of redeeming ourselves I believe. We are essentially undoing the wrongs by creating a whole new timeline where these kinds of behaviours and energy never existed.

[Delight]

It seems perplexing to me tht we discuss these beings invisible on the fringe feeding on us as somehow shocking and something to label as a monster when---HAS anyone noticed how many species we feed on??? And not only feed on but skin them alive for their fur and such like tht? So this line of thought seems interesting to me and at the same time confusing...

So we are feeding of other species and killing them even though we dont need this to survive...and perhaps something above us is doing the same thing?...Hummmm this is apart of the all encompassing hologram..OK now wht?

** would like to make clear i am not trying to prove anyone wrong here..just trying to get input from others to possibly get a more enlightening perspective on this issue tht i have seen alot of in these circuits

You reminded me of a rant I wrote last year that is pertinent.
I think that we receive EXACTLY in kind "what we give". This is not to me any more than the logic of the way we interact with the hologram.
However, the manipulation of the hologram prevents our questioning some of the very basic beliefs like that of "FOOD". We might actually never ever realize that what we "eat" does not need to be taken from another being? The Celestine Prophecy did a great job of explaining the difference when we take in energy direct from "Source"...the Zero Point Field of infinite supply. The fear of starving and the reptile brain keep us going round and round as we cannot source energy from survival terror states (I think not anyway.. most of the time anyway).. Here is what i wrote and it was a SCREAM from my frustration.

I came to Earth and All I Got was This Lousy Mind F&*K

There are no problems at all in the world except one. This one error underlies all pernicious deviations we consider “normal”.

Who is responsible for the error? We are and that is the good news.

It has to do with a relationship we have with what we call “thinking”. The problem with human thinking is that what we believe is true becomes true. Our mental activity has been seized by a predator who must use our mind to gain cooperation for taking its life energy through ours. It must seek our agreement. So, We believe in food that must be ingested and digested and that must come from other organic beings. we agree to the arrangement.

We must see ourselves are organic foodstuff as much as the rest of creation to participate. As supremely natural moral beings, when we create eating others as part of our existence, we MUST accept to be eaten also. And the message we accept came from the Archons.

Every moment, we are receiving a single message. “Human, your Ass is Food.” We hear this below the threshold of conscious awareness but it influences everything in our experience. The thought form reverberates and is replicated and projected and congeals as seen reality.

Eat or be Eaten and round and round we continue the wholesale theft of one another's energy.

Our mind has been co-opted … to make us believe and make it all OK> It is ALL RIGHT> IT HAS TO BE THIS WAY. So: that eating one another as food just IS a fact.

The alien human farmers who must have what we give them cannot exist without us but we may stop this exchange. We may just stop listening and believing.

The threats of fearful slaughter is planned so what little of our awareness is still intact will constantly ruminate over this scenario. Because we subconsciously identify ourselves as food, we cooperate in out picturing the whole Earth as a long chain of beings eaten and eating. We produce Planetary wide consumption as the purpose of earth creation in the last analysis. And we picture all forms of death and gore and horror to lie waiting at the end of the world for everyone, probably in a Catyclysm or Apocalyptic explosion, freeze or dehydration.

The good news is that with the realization of just what Lies are at the heart of the deceptions and the correction of the assumptions we have taken as truth, all the convolutions and machinations of the Predator no longer matter.

The Gnostics state that a huge unintentional error happened when Gaia was birthed from Sophia's consciousness. She unintentionally spawned UN LIFE when she meant to only seed LIFE here in the outer reaches of the Milky Way. It was not really her fault. She was impetuous and uninformed. She was in love with her experimental Organic Life Forms and meant only to see close up what might happen. Unfortunately, the laws of nature in duality being what they are, as soon as the ORGANIC impulse for life was crafted, the Inorganic beings showed up alongside.

Then eventually we became the energy source to fuel their animation as the INORGANIC cannot produce their own energy. They make us think it is natural to be what they tell us we are in the Mind F$#k. They take our energy and we mimic them with belief in scarcity, in finite crystallized geometries, in death, in the eternal unwavering need for FOOD. The lie is as false and as vile and as seemingly True as it is unreal.

The truth is that the purpose of Earth and our own being is not a circular feast of consumption until death despite appearances. The problem behind the problem is that we cannot believe how odd this situation of seeming UNIVERSAL consuming really Is, what our role in creating it IS or that the solution would be as simple as IT IS.

A species of creators can over-rule any consequences of a giant mind F&*k perpetrated by a slew of Inorganic beings. IF we accepted the truth and looked squarely at the situation they would be absolutely unable to continue the charade. They would be unable to access our ass-ettes no more. The nightmare that we seem to be naturally inhabiting a vampire world would end. They would be out of range of our energy. The world would alter in an instant as the underlying belief in food would evaporate and then? The mystery of how the Lion and the Lamb could be together would be solved

THE ONLY REAL THING IS THAT ENERGY IS CONSTANTLY BEING CREATED and flowing into the earth from the Source. Accessing it is the solution and to do that, one has to FEEL OUR BEING of the Abundance, the Light, the Source because a strange law is that one may only receive what one IS on a magnetic world (Gaia).

This is absolutely a mistake and not a fault or sin. We, nearly starved all the time, copy the meme of Shadow vampires and broadcast the picture for the whole to look just like what? Food. We humans have made this a world of food.

To get out of this ALIVE is to agree to knowing myself as an energetic being. Then to do the work of insisting on Source connection so the amplitude of that energy increases and little by little, BE nourished enough to know what NO INORGANIC being wants me to know… I am not subject to the Vampiric conditions when I feel my own inner light.

When I feel the fullness of the Inner light, nourishment just IS.

This is so simple and so apparent that I must write this statement refuting the first Lie that is the foundation of our continued acceptance of the Inorganic suckers who control our minds. Mind parasites, predators,shadows, Archons… all terms for the Evil transmitted from their minds to our minds to all the world.

[Finefeather]

I would suggest, presenting channeled material as evidence in a debate intended to prove that the messages being interpreted from the Astral Plane are cleverly manipulated, would be using circular logic, and therefore a derailing argument to the intention of the thread.

The puzzling thing for me about this statement you make is that the very video support 'evidence' you present in your OP has Bashar the medium as one of his sources of corroborating his "Human Game Model".

I have taken the time to try to understand your point of view by watching the entire 5 parts of the videos you present.
My conclusion in brief is that they are an attempt, by someone with a clever mind, to keep us from thinking and striving for our own progress...and telling us that everything is decided for us by what he calls the Infinite I...his idea of the Higher Self. This smacks of Illuminati/NWO/Elite propaganda...to try to get us to accept our state of supposed subservience to them.
Your bringing in the Astral plane is in itself not objective evidence because according to your 'rules of engagement' for this thread, you wanted objective scientific evidence to be tabled...and not some belief system.
So as far as I can conclude there is no evidence to support anything you might suggest if it concerns the inner or outer planes. Suggesting that we are controlled by Astral forces is pure speculation on your part...or anyone's for that matter...until someone who you determine is credible, by your standards, can give testimony.
Quantum Scientists are themselves still like little children playing with fire and pretending to know things which no one can really confirm.
As far as life been a hologram, I find it extremely delusional when someone can make a statement like..."if you are not looking at something it disappears" or turns into a "flowing quantum soup" just because some double slit experiment appears to tell us this has to be so.

The way I see this is that no answers can ever be found until science finds a way to enter the other side of the black hole...higher dimensions...to tell us what really goes on there...as this seems to be the only evidence you will accept...and you know what? I would agree with you here. However, until such time there will always be those who are quite capable of entering these dimensions with training and commitment, and these people will know what the real truth is, while you and other 'non able to get out the body' people will just have to wait for science.
Take care
Ray

[observer]

This comment is in response to Finefeather's comment #66, and is intended to clarify any confusion any other member may have regarding the Workshop referenced in the OP of this thread.

Ray,

The very reason that I only listed the first three videos to that Holographic Workshop was based on the point you are making regarding the last half of the third video, and subsequently the remaining fourth and fifth videos in that Workshop Series.

Did you also see the caveat that I added under the listing of those first three videos?


"Please Take Note:
Beyond Part Three of this series, the producer of the workshop begins making his own subjective interpretations of the data presented in the first three parts. His conclusions are only one possibility and remain theory."

Perhaps there is a better explanation of the double slit experiment on the internet. If so, I'm not aware of it. The Workshop is being referenced for the value of the Physics Lab Evidence ONLY. All conclusions made by the producer of that Workshop are purely subjective speculations.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

From the historic record, gleaned from around the world, the evidence clearly indicates an hyperdimensional reptilian life-form is in control, or at least, in partial control of the holographic projector on the other side of the Quantum Field in which this particular reality exists. One can find references to Reptilian life-forms in the creation mythologies wherever one looks. These Reptilian life-forms were responsible for creation

100% correct. I have seen this machine , and i have been in contact with the species that run it. I can also tell you that we do not truly understand their goals. This is all i can tell you about it but i can also tell you this, we have grossly misunderstood their motives behind this. If i say any more it will infringe on some serious cosmic laws, and that wouldnt be beneficial to anyone.

Very good info !

thank you

Naniu

[Freed Fox]

100% correct. I have seen this machine , and i have been in contact with the species that run it. I can also tell you that we do not truly understand their goals. This is all i can tell you about it but i can also tell you this, we have grossly misunderstood their motives behind this. If i say any more it will infringe on some serious cosmic laws, and that wouldnt be beneficial to anyone.


Respectfully, if telling us what you apparently know would infringe on 'serious cosmic laws', then why are you aware of it? What qualifies you alone to bear this knowledge, exactly?

[Hervé]

What if it's both... a particle and its generating EM wave field; i.e. the wave field condenses enough of its energy into a particle and vibrates around the "condensation" point of "Particle-Energy"?

... might lead to less erroneous assumptions/hypotheses:


lpI6ikj1G-s

[ThePythonicCow]

In the world of quantum physics, matter does not exist unless it is being observed.
I am beginning to suspect that this "world of quantum physics" is seriously insane :). By "insane", I mean out of touch with reality.

Essentially they are saying that only their theory and observations are real, not what is being observed.

Similarly, the explanation of action at a distance between entangled particles only makes sense if you accept their postulate that the entangled particles were not in a specified state until the observation of one of the particles made manifest what was the state of the other.



Let's say for example that I know that two particles were entangled, before separation, with one in an Up spin, and the other in a Down spin, and that just now I observed an Up spin in the particle close to me, so that other one, now far far away, must be a Down spin. According to quantum mechanics, this determination of the other one must have happened instantly, regardless of the distance, because quantum mechanics tells me that that other particle did not have a specified spin prior to my observing the Up spin of its entangled twin near me just now.
If you don't accept the original quantum mechanics postulate that the entangled states were indeterminate prior to observation, then there is no demonstration here of instant action at a distance.

[observer]

Note to Paul in response to comment #71

The experiment being considered in the first few videos of the Holographic Workshop, which is referenced in the OP of this thread, is not an experiment in "entanglement". It is the double-slit experiment which demonstrates that matter only exists when it is being observed. If one follows the Workshop Videos to about the middle of the Third Part, one will clearly see the aspects of which quantum physics experiments we are discussing, and how that is being applied to understanding the theory of an holographic universe.

Please Take Note:
The Workshop is littered with conclusions made by the producer of the video series. I am not presenting that Workshop as a subscription to the views of the producer. I am presenting the first two and one half parts of that series as an explanation of the physics experiment known as the "double-slit" experiment.

Obviously, there are many theories in all the related sciences that have not been reproduced, and as such are only theories.

However, the "double-slit" experiment has been reproduced repeatedly in physics labs all over the planet, and always with the same results. This brings the notions being addressed in this thread into the realm of fact, as opposed to theory.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

100% correct. I have seen this machine , and i have been in contact with the species that run it. I can also tell you that we do not truly understand their goals. This is all i can tell you about it but i can also tell you this, we have grossly misunderstood their motives behind this. If i say any more it will infringe on some serious cosmic laws, and that wouldnt be beneficial to anyone.




Respectfully, if telling us what you apparently know would infringe on 'serious cosmic laws', then why are you aware of it? What qualifies you alone to bear this knowledge, exactly?


Im not the only one clearly, seeing this thread is dedicated to this knowledge. ... and why would i knowing this offend you so much ? Respectfully

N

[Freed Fox]

100% correct. I have seen this machine , and i have been in contact with the species that run it. I can also tell you that we do not truly understand their goals. This is all i can tell you about it but i can also tell you this, we have grossly misunderstood their motives behind this. If i say any more it will infringe on some serious cosmic laws, and that wouldnt be beneficial to anyone.


Respectfully, if telling us what you apparently know would infringe on 'serious cosmic laws', then why are you aware of it? What qualifies you alone to bear this knowledge, exactly?

The question still stands. You imply knowledge about their 'grossly misunderstood' motives, and state you have observed this 'machine'. Withholding further information doesn't support your claim, and it doesn't offend me as much as it condescends to everyone.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

100% correct. I have seen this machine , and i have been in contact with the species that run it. I can also tell you that we do not truly understand their goals. This is all i can tell you about it but i can also tell you this, we have grossly misunderstood their motives behind this. If i say any more it will infringe on some serious cosmic laws, and that wouldnt be beneficial to anyone.




Respectfully, if telling us what you apparently know would infringe on 'serious cosmic laws', then why are you aware of it? What qualifies you alone to bear this knowledge, exactly?

The question still stands. You imply knowledge about their 'grossly misunderstood' motives, and state you have observed this 'machine'. Withholding further information doesn't support your claim, and it doesn't offend me as much as it condescends to everyone.

I see where this is leading. Firstly may i state i do not care who believes me or validating my statements. Secondly its strange would prefer me to tell you to satisfy your curiocity ? and as a result possibly jeapordise others on your planet ? In a broader sence this is what you would be doing , not having thought out your line of questioning. Thirdly implying that im some sort of dis info specialist ? is this what you are doing ?


You see my dear friend , the problem with the dualistic nature of this species. Being offended by information. Demanding i qualify my words ? Who the heall are you do demand such a thing ? You the Avalon Police department ?

Respectfully

N

[Freed Fox]

No, not for my curiosity. The OP (observer) stated that as part of his purpose here. If you know something that you think would endanger the rest of us, then at the very least you are suggesting the same potential harm coming from this thread.

You're the one who is making assumptions. I haven't accused you of anything, other than being potentially condescending, unless you misspoke or were exaggerating. In either case you haven't acknowledged it.

I am not demanding anything, but it is irresponsible to make unqualified statements. I am not offended, but empty/false words or testimony do harm to movements seeking truth.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

No, not for my curiosity. The OP (observer) stated that as part of his purpose here. If you know something that you think would endanger the rest of us, then at the very least you are suggesting the same potential harm coming from this thread.

You're the one who is making assumptions. I haven't accused you of anything, other than being potentially condescending, unless you misspoke or were exaggerating. In either case you haven't acknowledged it.

I am not demanding anything, but it is irresponsible to make unqualified statements. I am not offended, but empty/false words or testimony do harm to movements seeking truth.

You have a right to your opinion. I respect that.

I do also see you dance words which i think is disingenuous. Its clear you asked the question in the first place. This is called a demand, you then repeated it by stating that the " Question still stands " which is considered the second demand. A demand is underlined with a Question Mark.

and now you back peddle by denying it. And you state that questioning me in this fashion dosent paint me as a dis info merchant.... hmmm

So may i ask , did someone elect you to to police these statements as a fact checker ? is this your role ? Or is this self imposed ?

I think the ADULTS on Avalon are quite capable of making their own decisions without you acting as their mother. We already have a government trying to fill that role ... Respectfully.


But i will be paying closer attention to your posts from now on.

N

[observer]

I appreciate the input of all the members commenting, here in this thread.

However, let's not turn this into a pi$$ing contest. If a member has some information to contribute, than please make it available to all.

There is a 'back room' option on this website where we can resolve our individual differences called 'Private Message'.

Thank you all for your continued support.... observer.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

I appreciate the input of all the members commenting, here in this thread.

However, let's not turn this into a pi$$ing contest. If a member has some information to contribute, than please make it available to all.

There is a 'back room' option on this website where we can resolve our individual differences called 'Private Message'.

Thank you all for your continued support.... observer.

I agree , my apologies.

The info in this thread is important and i thank you for bringing it to our attention.

Naniu

[observer]

What if it's both... a particle and its generating EM wave field; i.e. the wave field condenses enough of its energy into a particle and vibrates around the "condensation" point of "Particle-Energy"?

... might lead to less erroneous assumptions/hypotheses:


lpI6ikj1G-s

Thank you for your input Amzer, however, I see no correlation between the experiments being conducted with photons of light (offered by you as evidence), and the "double-slit" experiment using quantum particles (the small particles found in an atom), which are referenced in the OP.

I can't state that photons of light and quantum (atomic) particles will behave the same, but there is no way to draw any conclusions regarding your video as evidence to clarify "erroneous assumptions/hypotheses".

You are simply not comparing apples to apples.

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see the full content of graybeard's comment #37.

David Sereda : Theoretical Physics & Spiritual Wisdom


David Sereda Coast to Coast Published on 3 Mar 2013

[....snip]
For me this is one of the most important videos I have watched.
It clarifies everything from the big bang to singularity.

Enjoy this

Chris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQkjryCflQU

Sorry it has taken so long to respond, Chris.

I had to listen several times to the video you offered.

I would hope in the interim period, you have had an opportunity to view the physics lab portion of the Holographic Workshop that is posted in the OP.

I really see no correlation to the Sereda material and the quantum (sub-atomic) "double-slit" experiment being discussed within this thread. There is a possibility - and I emphasize the word possibility - that the singularities/black holes found at the center of each galaxy (allegedly) may be the two dimensional flat plane on which the quantum field of infinite possibility is located. This would make logical sense, however, Sereda makes no connection to his view of singularities and the concept of an holographic universe.

So, one can see how Sereda's work does not correspond to the point of this thread....

[Hervé]

Applying Quantum Theory To Understanding This Particular Reality


FOUNDATIONAL UNDERSTANDING:

In the world of quantum physics, matter does not exist unless it is being observed.

... This fact of quantum physics has been shown to be a reproducible phenomenon in countless variations of a physics experiment known as The Double-Slit Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment), or Young's Interference Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment).

This Double-Slit Experiment has been re-tested in numerous physics labs all over the planet, always with the same results - objective results. The conclusions of this experiment are, just as previously stated, "matter does not exist unless it is being observed".





What if it's both... a particle and its generating EM wave field; i.e. the wave field condenses enough of its energy into a particle and vibrates around the "condensation" point of "Particle-Energy"?

... might lead to less erroneous assumptions/hypotheses:



lpI6ikj1G-s


Thank you for your input Amzer, however, I see no correlation between the experiments being conducted with photons of light (offered by you as evidence), and the "double-slit" experiment using quantum particles (the small particles found in an atom), which are referenced in the OP.

I can't state that photons of light and quantum (atomic) particles will behave the same, but there is no way to draw any conclusions regarding your video as evidence to clarify "erroneous assumptions/hypotheses".

You are simply not comparing apples to apples.

If you refer to the Double Slit Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment) and Young's Interference Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment), then I indeed am talking apple with respect to apples since the "photon" strange behavior of either a particle or a wave started the whole thing and was the base for similar experiments yielding similar results for electrons behaving either as waves or as particles

Now, if you watch the video I posted, the video uploader demonstrate the same pattern applying to all "particles" from photon to galaxies... so, again, I am comparing apples with apples: some small and some real big.

To claim that "matter does not exist unless it is being observed" is more than erroneous... "it's not even wrong" in the words of Jack Safartti since matter does exist as a condensation of energy flows whether it is observed or not; but, most of all, the double-slit experiment still yields identical results of wave/particles even with buckyballs.

One very plausible answer is explained in that video I posted as well as its two previous parts.

[araucaria]

So then, explain to the members how that mother in Afghanistan, holding the body of her dead infant, sitting in the bombed-out rubble of her home.... explain to the members how her thoughts possibly created that reality.

Focusing on the mechanism that has created that reality is the point of this thread. I contend its source is in the manipulation of the Quantum Field/Astral Plane from an hyperdimensional source.



In the terms of this thread, your use of the word 'reality' could be viewed as somewhat controversial. What makes your Afghani mother more 'real' than one from say Sandy Hook? You saw her on TV? She may just be a better actor. You were there, saw the bomb go off, saw the blood spilt, the tears shed? It may still be just a part of the holographic illusion. What makes you think you have any explaining to do at all?
:)

[Finefeather]

No, not for my curiosity. The OP (observer) stated that as part of his purpose here. If you know something that you think would endanger the rest of us, then at the very least you are suggesting the same potential harm coming from this thread.

You're the one who is making assumptions. I haven't accused you of anything, other than being potentially condescending, unless you misspoke or were exaggerating. In either case you haven't acknowledged it.

I am not demanding anything, but it is irresponsible to make unqualified statements. I am not offended, but empty/false words or testimony do harm to movements seeking truth.

You have a right to your opinion. I respect that.

I do also see you dance words which i think is disingenuous. Its clear you asked the question in the first place. This is called a demand, you then repeated it by stating that the " Question still stands " which is considered the second demand. A demand is underlined with a Question Mark.

and now you back peddle by denying it. And you state that questioning me in this fashion dosent paint me as a dis info merchant.... hmmm

So may i ask , did someone elect you to to police these statements as a fact checker ? is this your role ? Or is this self imposed ?

I think the ADULTS on Avalon are quite capable of making their own decisions without you acting as their mother. We already have a government trying to fill that role ... Respectfully.


But i will be paying closer attention to your posts from now on.

N
Sorry but I could not help but be curious about this...
Reading the dialog between you two is clear to me that you Nanoo are reading into Freed Fox's initial post something which does not exist.
You seem quite adamant that he has somehow stepped into some area which he should not question and that you have some higher report with some Beings which only you have access to.
I would suggest that you take a closer look at your reply to Freed Fox and try to guess who is really doing the demanding. Your aggressive manner seems to suggest that you are the emotional one in this dialog...then you start attacking him with words like "without you acting as their mother" and "i will be paying more attention to your posts from now on"...as if you are somehow higher in some perceived order than he is. You accuse him of things that never took place like trying to suggest he was painting you as a dis info merchant.
I find your posts distasteful to say the least...all you had to do was answer the question...not get into an emotional power trip.
Just an observation
Take care and much love to you both.
Ray

[Finefeather]

So then, explain to the members how that mother in Afghanistan, holding the body of her dead infant, sitting in the bombed-out rubble of her home.... explain to the members how her thoughts possibly created that reality.

Focusing on the mechanism that has created that reality is the point of this thread. I contend its source is in the manipulation of the Quantum Field/Astral Plane from an hyperdimensional source.



In the terms of this thread, your use of the word 'reality' could be viewed as somewhat controversial. What makes your Afghani mother more 'real' than one from say Sandy Hook? You saw her on TV? She may just be a better actor. You were there, saw the bomb go off, saw the blood spilt, the tears shed? It may still be just a part of the holographic illusion. What makes you think you have any explaining to do at all?
:)
I would suggest that just because there is conflict and suffering in this world does not mean that it is from some unseen force. Why do we always have to look outside the playing field to find the answers when more than likely they can be found in the very dark nature of some humans. Just by looking around, reading the news and opening our eyes it can be seen throughout history the many humans who have used other humans for their own benefit. The very nature of this picture, which is been described, can have many reasons for it being around...starvation? wars? abuse? ...what ever was the real cause of the death of the child it should appeal to us in one way only...why are we allowing children to be caught up in events which they have no understanding of?...why are we exploiting children for our own selfish motives?...human issues...not alien forces issues.
There is IMO not one bit of evidence on this planet that we are been abused by aliens or some 'hyperdimensional' forces in any collective manner...I would not entirely rule out individual cases (which IMO is not abuse but could be for some other reasons) but on a mass scale?...is to me quite paranoid. However when we look at it from a human point of view, we can clearly see the goings on of the Military and Industrial mad men in their quest for accumulating money and power...which is their God.
Take care
Ray

[ThePythonicCow]

RESEARCH RESOURCES:


Part One of the Holographic Universe Workshop -
http://www.holographicuniverseworkshops.com/partone.html

Part Two of the Holographic Universe Workshop -
http://www.holographicuniverseworkshops.com/parttwo.html

Part Three of the Holographic Universe Workshop -
http://www.holographicuniverseworkshops.com/partthree.html


Note to Paul in response to comment #71

The experiment being considered in the first few videos of the Holographic Workshop, which is referenced in the OP of this thread, is not an experiment in "entanglement". It is the double-slit experiment which demonstrates that matter only exists when it is being observed. If one follows the Workshop Videos to about the middle of the Third Part, one will clearly see the aspects of which quantum physics experiments we are discussing, and how that is being applied to understanding the theory of an holographic universe.
At the end of Part Two, physicist Thomas Campbell is quoted from a talk, explaining variations from a double split experiment, including a thought experiment (Gedankenexperiment) variation in which data is recorded into envelopes, but then the data from the detectors at the slit is destroyed before viewing the data at the screen, which changes the screen data so that it appears as a diffraction pattern instead of two simple concentrations.

The real experiment is explained more accurately here: Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment (http://www.matrixwissen.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=639:delayed-choice-quantum-eraser-experiment&catid=125:quantenphysik&Itemid=105&lang=en).

Notice that this experiment does involve quantum entanglement and "action at a distance" :). So perhaps my earlier post above disputing the usual interpretation of quantum entanglement as demonstrating action at a distance was not so far off topic as it seemed.

My summary of this Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment (http://www.matrixwissen.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=639:delayed-choice-quantum-eraser-experiment&catid=125:quantenphysik&Itemid=105&lang=en):




The single photon, after going through either slit, is split into two entangled photons, one of which goes to a screen and perhaps creates an interference pattern (aka diffraction pattern) and the other of which bounces from or passes through one or two semi-permeable mirrors before getting to one of four detectors.

Two of those detectors (D1 and D2) are situated so that they might get photons from either slit, and the other two detectors (D3 and D4) can each only get photons from one identifiable slit.

The entangled partners of the photons that made it to D3 or D4 do not form an interference pattern. The entangled partners of the photons that made it to D1 or D2 do form an interference pattern. Their entangled partners actually arrive at the screen that detects that interference pattern before the photons destined for D1 through D4 even arrive at those detectors.

Click on the above link to see a more complete description, and a drawing showing the apparatus design.

So one might conclude from this experiment that the future event of knowing which slit the photon went through determines whether or not an interference pattern forms.

Observe, however, that the photons that go to D3 or D4 reflect off the very first semi-permeable mirror BSa or BSb they come to. Nothing I see offhand in this experiment rules out the possibility that there was something different about the photons that went on to create an interference pattern, which difference also applied to their entangled sibling, causing them to be more likely to reflect off the first semi-permeable mirror they encountered rather than passing through.

In any case, read the comments below the article I linked above. The interpretations by Thomas Campbell of this Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment are not universally accepted.

I am also a bit surprised to see Thomas Campbell taking this position in this Dec 3,2011 talk at Atlanta (full version can be found starting with this Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9q1Qkc-mWw), given that he had already agreed Aug 08, 2010 here (http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5333) ("twcjr" is Dr. Thomas Campbell, and this is his here ("]My Big Toe[/url] blog) that (bold added by myself):



I received a helpful email from Chris, a physicist knowledgeable about current thinking and terminology regarding the double slit experiment. In case you don't speak physics, I'll do a short summary here: the main issue (other than out of date terminology) was my claim that physicists in the 1920s realized that it was the recording of the measured data rather than the measurement itself that was critical to the outcome of the double slit experiment. Indeed that is not true. As Chris points out, physicists assumed (and still do) that it is the interaction with the measurement apparatus, rather than the fact that measured data is recorded. The math works out the same either way -- and since both were always done together, the experiment to determine whether their assumption was true has not been done. The bottom line is that my discussion of the history of the double-slit experiment in the YouTube videos is incorrect - it would seem that contemporary physicists would not agree that creating information in PMR is the key ingredient rather than an invisible theoretical physical interaction.

In Thomas Campbell's own words from August 2010, and in my view comparing his interpretation of the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment with the actual such experiment (see my links above), I believe that his interpretation of the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment is seriously incorrect. Unlike what Campbell claims in his Gedankenexperiment (see above), the actual experiment does not violate the principle of causality. The cause must precede the effect. Destroying some of the data recorded from a previous experiment does not change other data recorded from that experiment.

===

Stepping back a bit, I see several serious confusions going on in these workshops.

1) Some of the physicists are quoted as saying that there is an underlying reality, but just one that is very different from the "normal physical reality" we commonly think of. See for example the quotes from David Bohm, available The tangible reality of our everyday lives is really a kind of illusion, like a holographic image. Underlying it is a deeper order of existence, a vast and more primary level of reality that gives birth to all the objects and appearances of our physical world[/I]" This is very different than what Stephen Davis is stating in these workshops, that there is no such underlying reality. Davis is quoting others who profoundly disagree with him, and glossing over the profound disagreement to make it seem as if those others, such as Bohm, support his (Davis's) views.

2) Quantum mechanics is presented as the finest, essentially indisputable, physics ever known to mankind, as if without peer or dissenting view. [U]Both the profound and long lasting disagreements on how to interpret the significance of the (quite accurate) calculations of quantum mechanics, and the existence of other physics, such as subquantum kinetics (http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=14187) or torsion physics (http://www.soulsofdistortion.nl/torsion_field_articles.html) and experimental evidence supporting such physics, pass unmentioned in these workshops.

3) The usual argument is made that quantum mechanics is difficult to understand, in order to support a belief in some author's interpretation of quantum mechanics, even if that interpretation seems counter intuitive or bizarre. The implication is that you should accept the author's claims on faith, and that if you resist, you are being small minded. Such arguments are fallacious.

4) The statistical, non-deterministic nature of the quantum mechanical model is confused with whatever is the underlying reality. Do not confuse the model with what it models.

5) That we each have differences in our perceptions (one of us think someone looks like Brad Pitt while another of us doesn't agree, in Davis's example) does not imply that there is no common shared underlying reality that is the same for us all.

6) The analogy of a hologram as we know it from scenes in movies and the little holograms on the security emblems on our credit cards with the underlying wave like nature of reality is over extended. Perhaps, as I would suggest, the underlying wave-like material that forms reality, including forming all the sub-atomic particles of mass and all the photons or waves of electro-magnetic radiation (e.g. light) is highly self-determined and complex, not some soup of all possible realities from which "something else" (consciousness?) selects an alternative. Rather that "consciusness" is just another aspect, another ordering of that underlying material of the universe.

7) Just because "selections are made from the underlying material" doesn't mean that some one or some thing or some consciousness selects it. Rather I would suggest that there is but one self-selecting reality, organized on several levels at once, such that on any given level, not all is independently entirely self-selecting or free from interactions with the other levels, higher or lower.

8) Choosing not to call the "selecting consciousness" a "Higher Self" because that suggests that this "Higher Self" is something better or to strive for, and then turning around to call it instead the "Infinite I" is hardly any better :).

[ThePythonicCow]

Applying Quantum Theory To Understanding This Particular Reality


FOUNDATIONAL UNDERSTANDING:

In the world of quantum physics, matter does not exist unless it is being observed.

In other words, the smallest particles of an atom: protons, electrons, neutrons, etc. (quanta) only exist as matter when they are being observed. This fact of quantum physics has been shown to be a reproducible phenomenon in countless variations of a physics experiment known as The Double-Slit Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment), or Young's Interference Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment).

Quoting from the Wikipedia reference you provided The Double-Slit Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment)



And in 2012, researchers finally succeeded in correctly identifying the path each particle had taken without any adverse effects at all on the interference pattern generated by the particles.

This places further into doubt the interpretations of the double-split experiments that take them to mean that conscious observation necessarily effects the result and inhibits the appearance of an interference pattern :).

[araucaria]

So then, explain to the members how that mother in Afghanistan, holding the body of her dead infant, sitting in the bombed-out rubble of her home.... explain to the members how her thoughts possibly created that reality.

Focusing on the mechanism that has created that reality is the point of this thread. I contend its source is in the manipulation of the Quantum Field/Astral Plane from an hyperdimensional source.



In the terms of this thread, your use of the word 'reality' could be viewed as somewhat controversial. What makes your Afghani mother more 'real' than one from say Sandy Hook? You saw her on TV? She may just be a better actor. You were there, saw the bomb go off, saw the blood spilt, the tears shed? It may still be just a part of the holographic illusion. What makes you think you have any explaining to do at all?
:)
I would suggest that just because there is conflict and suffering in this world does not mean that it is from some unseen force. Why do we always have to look outside the playing field to find the answers when more than likely they can be found in the very dark nature of some humans. Just by looking around, reading the news and opening our eyes it can be seen throughout history the many humans who have used other humans for their own benefit. The very nature of this picture, which is been described, can have many reasons for it being around...starvation? wars? abuse? ...what ever was the real cause of the death of the child it should appeal to us in one way only...why are we allowing children to be caught up in events which they have no understanding of?...why are we exploiting children for our own selfish motives?...human issues...not alien forces issues.
There is IMO not one bit of evidence on this planet that we are been abused by aliens or some 'hyperdimensional' forces in any collective manner...I would not entirely rule out individual cases (which IMO is not abuse but could be for some other reasons) but on a mass scale?...is to me quite paranoid. However when we look at it from a human point of view, we can clearly see the goings on of the Military and Industrial mad men in their quest for accumulating money and power...which is their God.
Take care
Ray

More like 'Hypodimensional' I'd say. In my view, the whole scenario being presented here is back to front and inside out: a matrix-eye view of the matrix, with 'controllers' who do not even control their own little bubble very well. They are certainly not outside or above looking in or down. The 'objective evidence' for this is me for me and you for you, and we are going to burst this bubble.

[Finefeather]

Great and precise research Paul, thanks.

Does this mean we can all get back to our quest to build a better life for ourselves, and those around us without thinking it's all in vain and controlled by someone with a Sony Game Console in their lap? :)

Regards to you
Ray

[ThePythonicCow]

The real experiment is explained more accurately here: Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment (http://www.matrixwissen.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=639:delayed-choice-quantum-eraser-experiment&catid=125:quantenphysik&Itemid=105&lang=en).
The author of this presentation has now provided us a Youtube video, which some may find a more accessible way to study this:
hSRTvKgAs9c
P.S. -- Though his explanation of this experiment is excellent, I do not agree with his analysis :).

[observer]

To Paul, and all the other members subscribing to Paul's analysis of the 'double-slit experiment', which forms the foundational thesis of this thread:

I have now stated in at least three separate comments that the purpose of showing the three Holographic Universe Workshop videos was for a better understanding of the physics lab experiment which is foundational to the Holographic Universe Model - spicifically, the "double-slit experiment". Nothing, anyone attempting to discredit these findings has said, discounts the fundamental fact that when particles (of light, or sub-atomic structure it doesn't matter) strike a single slit they behave in one particular manner, and when they are aimed at a double-slit arrangement, they behave differently, except when those particles are being observed.

Under those circumstances, the pattern formed goes-back to acting like a particle, and not a wave form.

Has anyone in this debate shown that foundational conclusion to be incorrect? If they have, I missed it. [Proving 'entanglement' is not the part of the experiment in question. Showing the fundamental conclusions regarding the 'observation phenomenon' is the point. The idea of 'entanglement' is only used by Michael Talbot to describe how two different observers can view the same object from different perspectives, and still come to the same commonality. This concept is more of an explanation of the entanglement phenomenon from an Holographic Model point-of-view, than it is a use of entanglement to prove the Holographic model. Point-of-fact is, entanglement is being observed, explain it. The Holographic model goes a long way to do just that.]

I believe I made it quite clear regarding what Stephen Davis is saying in the workshops, and that I was - in no way - suggesting we subscribe to his conclusions.

Now, let's move-on to Karl Pribram and David Bohem, and the conclusions of their work as summarized by Michael Talbot, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-r3pW-G5BI
(this video was linked also in the OP)

The conclusions of what I said in the OP of this thread is supported by the findings of the double slit experiment, with specific regard to the "observation phenomenon" and the nature of the way sub-atomic particles behave. Using this very specific conclusion to support the Holographic Universe Model, as described by Michael Talbot, again leads to some very irrefutable conclusions regarding the nature of this particular reality. These conclusions are regardless of Stephen Davis' spin on any of the science.

The fact remains, we all perceive the foundational structure of this universe (atomic structure) in very much the same way. We all view this particular reality with a commonality that appears to be controlled. When any human brain views their environment - all, images extracted from a quantum field of infinite potential, at random - any other human brain viewing that same particular reality, sees essentially the same matter.

If this doesn't amount to a control mechanism, than perhaps I missed something.... "Nintendo game controller", notwithstanding.

Now, perhaps we can continue investigating what we all think is controlling that hologram.

And please, let's attempt to continue using objective evidence in that pursuit.

Additional Research Resources:

From matrxwissien.de -
http://www.matrixwissen.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=92:michael-talbot-synchronicity-and-the-holographic-universe&catid=67:spiritualitaet&Itemid=75&lang=en

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Can you define your interpretation of " objective evidense " ?

N

[observer]

Hard physical evidence, as opposed to subjective evidence, such as the personal testimonies one might find in a theological discussion, such as 'witnessing'.

[heyokah]

I'd like to post one of the videos observer mentioned at his Additional Research Resources comment 91.

About Michael Talbot :

Michael Talbot was an american author of several books dealing with parallels between mysticism and quantum physics. In his books he tries to explain inexplicable paranormal phenomena through the approach of humanity living in a holographic universe.

Physicists like David Bohm or neurophysiologist Karl Bribram independantly came up with holographic theories / models of the universe. Michael takes their scientific approach and uses it to explain a large spectrum of paranormal phenomena.

Michael Talbot died 1992 at the age of 38 from leukemia. This interview was recorded 6 months before his death.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rgYz_BU2Ew

More about Michael Talbot: the video "Michael Talbot 'Holographic Realities' New Dimensions"

http://youtu.be/zv2EAlHAUHc

[observer]

Great and precise research Paul, thanks.

Does this mean we can all get back to our quest to build a better life for ourselves, and those around us without thinking it's all in vain and controlled by someone with a Sony Game Console in their lap? :)

Regards to you
Ray

That was a cheap-shot Ray.

You and I have tangled ideologies in the past, so your comment was to be expected.

In the business of shattering paradigms, one often encounters this sort of resistance.

I might only add, your perspectives on this issue are supported by documentation that goes all the way back to the Dawn of Man - all failed theologies.

[Finefeather]

Great and precise research Paul, thanks.

Does this mean we can all get back to our quest to build a better life for ourselves, and those around us without thinking it's all in vain and controlled by someone with a Sony Game Console in their lap? :)

Regards to you
Ray

That was a cheap-shot Ray.

You and I have tangled ideologies in the past, so your comment was to be expected.

In the business of shattering paradigms, one often encounters this sort of resistance.

I might only add, your perspectives on this issue are supported by documentation that goes all the way back to the Dawn of Man.... all failed theologies.
Hi observer
Try to see this post in the vain which it was written...a little light humor and a smile...
I am sorry you see our relationship as a conflict of some sort...and also...I am puzzled where you get the notion that I am into theological theories and dogmas...you could not be further from the truth.
I am a student of life and it has taken me to places which might surprise you...I am also not completely on the opposite side of your fence...I notice more than I say.

My point of view now, after reading 5 pages of posts and watching many videos, about this thread, is that I am of the opinion that there is no objective evidence on this planet which supports a holographic world controlled by some sinister force. All 'evidence' including the Talbot video is IMO subjective and therefore invalid, according to your rules. All you need to do is take a clear look at all the scenarios which are taking place on this planet and you can see the real truth. This model, of a controlled holographic world, is an idea, by those who have IMO no real clue of the facts.
Although...I must say...I have enjoyed the videos and this thread for what it is worth...all it has indicated to me, is that we, as humans, have a long way to go before we really understand the truth of the matter. In the meantime we will go on and on and on trying to work it all out with our earthbound state of mind...and forget the teachings of ancient wisdom...with which many have been able to see the real truth.
Regards to you and take care
Ray

[sheme]

7 minutes

(substitute the Religion word with the Hologram word.)

It is not all wrong it is not all right. It is all about the individual perspective and continuous change, expansion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgnYv_HjiBA&list=PL38C218BE4D0C7C8A

[observer]

For those members having difficulty discerning what part of the Holographic Universe Workshop video series I would like to focus upon, I was able to find the specific segment on YouTube that deals directly with the experiment being referred to:

[An earlier link to a segment of the Holographic Workshop was posted here. The below link is a better and more complete video of a similar physics lab experiment.]

update
Here's an even more comprehensive "cartoon" for the edification of the members:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz27jq4ATL4

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding icon to view the content of Finefeather's comment #96
[....snip]

From a previous comment by observer:
"I might only add, your perspectives on this issue are supported by documentation that goes all the way back to the Dawn of Man.... all failed theologies.



Taken from the text of Finefeather's comment #96:
"I am puzzled where you get the notion that I am into theological theories and dogmas...you could not be further from the truth.


Taken from the text of Finefeather's comment #96:
"In the meantime we will go on and on and on trying to work it all out with our earthbound state of mind...and forget the teachings of ancient wisdom...with which many have been able to see the real truth.

In the same comment you have answered your own question, Ray. This ancient wisdom to which you are subscribed is the very failed theologies that I am referring to.

The Mass of Humanity has been lied to since the Dawn of Man. That is the concept this thread is addressing.

Regards back to you, and take care,
observer

[sheme]

One might, with equal holographic justification claim that the majority of humanity is the cause of it's own downfall by becoming engrossed and fascinated by low vibrational pass times and thoughts, "Like attracts like", as the experiment proves, It all goes away when you stop pushing peoples buttons!

People, control your thoughts attract high vibrations by ceasing to empower Low stuff. That's all any of us really need to know-- YOU and YOU alone are responsible for your truths.

(I bet I could prove that to you if you gave me a cartoon studio)

[heyokah]

One might, with equal holographic justification claim that the majority of humanity is the cause of it's own downfall by becoming engrossed and fascinated by low vibrational pass times and thoughts, "Like attracts like", as the experiment proves, It all goes away when you stop pushing peoples buttons!

People, control your thoughts attract high vibrations by ceasing to empower Low stuff. That's all any of us really need to know-- YOU and YOU alone are responsible for your truths.

(I bet I could prove that to you if you gave me a cartoon studio)

Dear sheme

I think if we want to change this 'downfall' we'll sure have to be pushing peoples buttons. That's the only way to change those low vibrational pass times and thoughts, as the interests of the mayority of western population is Dimes, Drugs, Disneyland and McDonalds, to mention a few.
I hope this is what you mean by 'Low Stuff' and not the search for information to find out who has really been pushing this Low Stuff on humanity for ages while pulling the strings and benefitting in a repulsive way.

The truth will set us free.

[CD7]

You reminded me of a rant I wrote last year that is pertinent.
I think that we receive EXACTLY in kind "what we give". This is not to me any more than the logic of the way we interact with the hologram.
However, the manipulation of the hologram prevents our questioning some of the very basic beliefs like that of "FOOD". We might actually never ever realize that what we "eat" does not need to be taken from another being? The Celestine Prophecy did a great job of explaining the difference when we take in energy direct from "Source"...the Zero Point Field of infinite supply. The fear of starving and the reptile brain keep us going round and round as we cannot source energy from survival terror states (I think not anyway.. most of the time anyway).. Here is what i wrote and it was a SCREAM from my frustration.

I knew this point was brought up in the past....thanks for the recap! :)

All boogie men aside....like i said, we do our own destructive behaviors, so much so, to focus on another "species" AGAIN keeps us looking OUTSIDE ourselves continually...

Interesting point you make......
We must see ourselves are organic foodstuff as much as the rest of creation to participate. As supremely natural moral beings, when we create eating others as part of our existence, we MUST accept to be eaten also. And the message we accept came from the Archons.

Recently ive thought along these lines...if we STOP participating in these brutal behaviors--killing, eating, taking wht we do not need to survive..will then all "boogie man theories" fall by the waste side?
Doesnt it stand in one's own life...when u are participating in negative behaviors..treating others bad..that this then turns into a paranoia of what others will come back and do to u?



Instead of as above so below WHY NOT as below so above? Great conclusion AYE? now wht? LOL!!

OK thts enough machinating key pad circles im going into at this point...originally was trying to get detailed information about what others may know of whts behind the hologram...but i should just GET IN LINE lol behind all the others asking these questions with no answers.....

[sheme]

I refuse to "downfall", my wish is to let folks know they can "uplift" if they choose, Truth is relative to the beholder, you make your own reality, if you believe you can, you will.

Low stuff- well that is also relative isn't it? I promise I mean what ever you want me to mean. You have already decided. Peace and light to you.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Id like to put up a an opinion here after reading the thread.

Observer is trying to steer his thread for a reason. He has a belief about this holographic machine and wishes to dig deeper into finding better evidence to support it. ( correct me if i am wrong ) This is his interest.

We have seen certain posters contradict them selves which he points out quite clearly. I think with regard to common courtesy it would be wise to respect the thread and what Observer is trying to achieve by enriching its purpose as opposed to stating anything is impossible.

My opinion again , if anybody states something is impossible then they need to understand more about reality. Reality is about understanding that we know very little about anything. Facts are subjective along a line of true to falce based on an individuals perspective. So in reality there is no truth nor are there any lies.. just varying degrees of subjective belief.

Eg , I believe this machine exists. But how on earth can i prove my belief ? the belief is subjective to my experience. I cant google my experience and provide proof can i ? no. so it is subjective.

Personally i think certain people have made their points and should respect the thread for what it wants to achieve however i agree too it will be hard to find bona fide proof of such a machine. Real hard evidence of such a thing would be even more difficult, hence the frustration embedded in the subject.

Personally i am on the cusp of aincient wisdom and modern science as a belief system. Neither can be discounted in my opinion if we want to understand the
" impossible "


Naniu

[sheme]

Even threads have vibrations -they resonate, we can be attracted or repelled or indifferent or any combination of all influencing the original vibration, we contribute we automatically alter the vibration of the thread and become co creators.

If we may only vibrate at a similar level to the OP- then what is the point of a thread in the first place? Without agitation there can be no expansion.

However I can take a hint. May light shine on your path.

Oop's nearly forgot the answer to the OP question is.............42

[observer]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

I should hope, sheme, this will be the last comment I need to make to you in this thread.

Your signature says everything that this thread IS about....

May the light of understanding shine on the path of the Mass of Humanity.

Reference to 42:
I personally would have no objection to the destruction of all of this through the discovery of just how it all operates. Of course, in my universe, the destruction would lead to something better for all involved. So much for science fiction fantasy....

[ThePythonicCow]

Nothing, anyone attempting to discredit these findings has said, discounts the fundamental fact that when particles (of light, or sub-atomic structure it doesn't matter) strike a single slit they behave in one particular manner, and when they are aimed at a double-slit arrangement, they behave differently, except when those particles are being observed.

Under those circumstances, the pattern formed goes-back to acting like a particle, and not a wave form.

Has anyone in this debate shown that foundational conclusion to be incorrect? If they have, I missed it.

Yes, observation can effect the results.

Insertion of detectors, such as the beta barium borate crystal (BBO) photon splitters used in the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment (http://www.matrixwissen.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=639:delayed-choice-quantum-eraser-experiment&catid=125:quantenphysik&Itemid=105&lang=en) that Stephen Davis quotes Thomas Campbell describing in the workshop videos you posted, effects the result of the experiment.

It's not the conscious state of mind of the humans running the experiment that matters here. It's the BBO crystal in the light path, claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

[ThePythonicCow]

Aha - here's an experiment, also using the beta barium borate crystal (BBO) photon splitter and entanglement, but in which the BBO splitter is placed before the slits, not after. They were able to determine which slit one of the entangled photons went through by observing its sibling. They were able to generate an interference pattern, while still determining which slit the photon passed through. See Disentangling the wave-particle duality in the double-slit experiment (http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/05/disentangling-the-wave-particle-duality-in-the-double-slit-experiment/).

So ... observation does not necessarily destroy the interference pattern.

P.S. -- I checked some more links. This is the same experiment I reported on above, in Post #87 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=649797&viewfull=1#post649797).

[ThePythonicCow]

Perhaps I should have split off my comments on double slit experiments instead of continuing here. I become torn between two sometimes opposing objectives. On the one hand, like good referees at a sporting contest, we moderators should allow all views equal opportunity, and we should ask members to respect all other members views. On the other hand, we share a common goal of better understanding, and that means sifting the truths from the confusions and favoring one over the other.

Presently, if it's a subject I don't know much about, I just strive to maintain respectful discussion, but if it's a topic I'm more involved with, I may take a position and dispel what I consider to be significant confusions. The risk of course is that I get one wrong, and dispel important truths or discourage members who would otherwise have made additional valuable contributions.

In any case ... here's one more delightful double split report: http://grad.physics.sunysb.edu/~amarch/ . In these experiments, enabling and disabling detectors on the entangled sibling photon effected whether the other photon that went through the slits caused an interference pattern, even if the sibling detectors were further away (encountered later in time) than the interference pattern detector.

[heyokah]

I came upon the work of Robert Lanza, M.D. about BIOCENTRISM. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biocentrism_(theory_of_everything)) :

How Life and Consciousness are the Keys to Understanding the True Nature of the Universe.


Quoting from Wiki :


According to Lanza's book, Biocentrism suggests that life is not an accidental byproduct of physics, but rather is a key part of our understanding of the universe.
The theory states that there is no independent external universe outside of biological existence.
Part of what the theory sees as evidence of this is that there are over 200 physical parameters within the universe so exact that it is seen as more probable that they are that way in order to allow for existence of life and consciousness, rather than coming about at random.
Biocentrism claims that allowing the observer into the equation opens new approaches to understanding cognition.
Through this, biocentrism purports to offer a way to unify the laws of the universe.

OK Paul, and then of course here we go: ;)


Some physicists have commented that biocentrism currently does not make testable predictions.
Dr. Vinod Kumar Wadhawan and Ajita Kamal responded to the idea by stating that "The biocentrism approach does not provide any new information about the nature of consciousness, and relies on ignoring recent advances in understanding consciousness from a scientific perspective."
Biologist PZ Meyers supported their views as well. Arizona State University physicist Lawrence Krauss stated, “It may represent interesting philosophy, but it doesn't look, at first glance, as if it will change anything about science."
In USA Today Online, theoretical physicist and science writer David Lindley asserted that Lanza’s concept was a "vague, inarticulate metaphor" and stated that "I certainly don't see how thinking his way would lead you into any new sort of scientific or philosophical insight. That's all very nice, I would say to Lanza, but now what? I [also] take issue with his views about physics."

Richard Conn Henry, Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Johns Hopkins University writing for the Journal of Scientific Exploration said: “What Lanza says in this book is not new. Then why does Robert have to say it at all? It is because we, the physicists, do NOT say it––or if we do say it, we only whisper it, and in private––furiously blushing as we mouth the words. True, yes; politically correct, hell no!”

Nobel laureate in Physiology or Medicine and physician E. Donnall Thomas said of biocentrism, "Any short statement does not do justice to such a scholarly work.
The work is a scholarly consideration of science and philosophy that brings biology into the central role in unifying the whole."

Indian physician and writer Deepak Chopra stated that “Lanza's insights into the nature of consciousness are original and exciting” and that “his theory of biocentrism is consistent with the most ancient wisdom traditions of the world which says that consciousness conceives, governs, and becomes a physical world. It is the ground of our Being in which both subjective and objective reality come into existence."
Daniel Dennett said that he does not believe that the idea met the criteria of a theory in philosophy.


****

Biocentrism: How Life and Consciousness are the Keys to Understanding the True Nature of the Universe
by Robert Lanza, Bob Berman

Scroll down to the second article..... although the first one is interesting too !

http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/is-death-an-illusion-evidence-suggests-death-isnt-the-end/

****

[ThePythonicCow]

How Life and Consciousness are the Keys to Understanding the True Nature of the Universe.
Now that I might agree with ... just not on account of any double split or entangled photon experiments :).

[heyokah]

How Life and Consciousness are the Keys to Understanding the True Nature of the Universe.
Now that I might agree with ... just not on account of any double split or entangled photon experiments :).

I'm sure in such a short time you will not have been able to study the article I ended with :nod: :nono:


Biocentrism: How Life and Consciousness are the Keys to Understanding the True Nature of the Universe
by Robert Lanza, Bob Berman

Scroll down to the second article..... although the first one is interesting too !

http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/is-death-an-illusion-evidence-suggests-death-isnt-the-end/

add

besides.... it's all about who is responsable for the (subjective) interpretation of the experiments .......

(furiously blushing as we mouth the words. True, yes; politically correct, hell no!”) :)

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding arrow to see the content of Paul's comment #109
[....snip]


.... if it's a subject I don't know much about, I just strive to maintain respectful discussion, but if it's a topic I'm more involved with, I may take a position and dispel what I consider to be significant confusions. The risk of course is that I get one wrong, and dispel important truths or discourage members who would otherwise have made additional valuable contributions.

Paul,

[Please take note:
I only address this to Paul because of the negating effect a comment from the Administration Team has in any thread - when that comment concerns the validity of the data being presented.]

I would respectfully submit herein lies one of those situations where your involvement is interfering with the pursuit of knowledge.

Here are the points that I find illogical to the arguments, from those attempting to debunk the data:

1. Photons are associated with light. Whether photons are wave form or particles has no consequence to the conclusions being presented in this thread. If, as you assert, it is the barium borate crystal (BBO) that effects the photons, and not the observation itself, this information is irrelevant to the results of the 'double-slit experiment' as it relates to electrons.

2. There is a distinct difference between photons of light, and electrons. Electrons represent sub-atomic particles that are either a wave-form, or a particle, depending-on if they are being observed or not. Electrons form a foundational building block for the creation of matter. Photons are the building blocks of light.

3. Using data from experiments designed to determine the nature of a photon, has no consequence to the debate as to whether an electron is a wave form, or a particle, in spite of Amzer Zo's earlier argument. Comparing photons [with electrons], is not a comparison of apples to apples.

The premise of this thread concerns whether this particular reality is controlled from an hyperdimensional source. It uses the Holographic Universe Model as the foundation of that premise. The Holographic Universe Model is built upon observations from a physics lab specifically related to the nature of how electrons behave in a certain experiment. Therefore, I would respectfully request that you, or any other individual wishing to debunk the premise of this thread show the members specifically where barium borate crystals (BBO) had an effect on experiments involving electrons.

The "double-slit" experiment - as it relates to the behavior of electrons - where the observation of the path of those electrons effected the results of the experiment, is one of the foundational building blocks to the Holographic Universe Model. It seems to me, by using data derived from studies regarding photons, is derailing to that conclusion.

I would also add, that contained within the data you have provided from Thomas Campbell, where he makes the assertion that, "we are living in a virtual reality", how do you see this as any difference from comparing this to an Holographic Universe? Perhaps we are talking semantics here.

Virtual Reality/Holographic Universe, isn't the basic assumption of either an [acknowledgement] of a control mechanism?

[ [U]Research Reference:
Dare I even again suggest the members spend some time researching David Icke's Book, The Biggest Secret? -
http://davidickebooks.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=12
David Icke's work goes further to demonstrate how this particular reality is controlled through an hyperdimensional source than anything I could present within this thread.]

[observer]

Click-on the forwarding icon to see the full text of Amzer Zo's comment #82.
lpI6ikj1G-s

I again point-out, Amzer Zo, that all of the research you have referenced is relating to photons, not electrons. This, however, is not even the issue.

The point of this thread is whether physical (objective) evidence exists to show that this particular reality is being somehow manipulated from an hyperdimensional source.

In the OP, we explored how the evidence being presented could possibly lead to objective conclusions regarding this assumption. It would appear that many of the members, with conflicting points of view, wish only to disrupt the flow of information leading to this conclusion.

The Holographic Universe Workshop, work by Michael Talbot's, and a book by David Icke were presented as a trail of evidence one might explore to come to these conclusions. I ask that any member wishing to debate the sources of this evidence, to first make themselves aware of the evidence, if at least only in a cursorily way.

Please also note, that I included a caveat in the OP regarding what conclusions Stephen Davis, the producer, had to say in that Workshop. Through this thread, I have simplified the physics lab results found in that Workshop into a less time consuming format (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz27jq4ATL4).

Many times, in other threads, over the time I've been a member, I have referenced the work of David Talbott, and Wallace Thornhill regarding the possibility of an Electric Universe Model.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AUA7XS0TvA
(That is David Talbott, not to be confused with Michael Talbot.)

I find the evidence you have provided in the Primer Field Videos to be supportive to the Electric Universe Model. I do not find the Primer Field Information having any bearing on the Holographic Universe Model. I personally have no difficulty merging the two unrelated concepts into one Unified Model, however.

My conclusion, here would be: the same "something" that turned on the holographic projector, also flipped the switch that causes this Electric Universe to continue operating.

This begs the question, how long will this experiment be allowed to operate, and when will "something else" come along and shut the switch off? Understanding the mechanics of the mechanism may possibly lead to the conclusion of this 'failed experiment' we all find ourselves time-trapped within - in an endless a$$-biting loop of birth-death-rebirth. I can only see greater understanding as a conclusion to be a good thing .

So, in that regard, thank you for presenting a possibility that has allowed me to exound on the purpose of this thread. I hope all the members gain some understanding from this exercise.

I trust all the members are on the same page now.... observer

[heyokah]

The Most Amazing Experiment (http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/is-death-an-illusion-evidence-suggests-death-isnt-the-end/)

From Biocentrism (Robert Lanza and Bob Berman)


Quantum theory has unfortunately become a catch-all phrase for trying to prove various kinds of New Age nonsense. It’s unlikely that the authors of the many books making wacky claims of time-travel or mind-control, and who use quantum theory as “proof,” have the slightest knowledge of physics or could explain even the rudiments of QT. The popular 2004 film, What the Bleep Do We Know? is a good case in point. The movie starts out claiming quantum theory has revolutionized our thinking – which is true enough – but then, without explanation or elaboration, goes on to say that it proves people can travel into the past or “choose which reality you want.”

QT says no such thing. QT deals with probabilities, and the likely places particles may appear, and likely actions they will take. And while, as we shall see, bits of light and matter do indeed change behavior depending on whether they are being observed, and measured particles do indeed appear to amazingly influence the past behavior of other particles, this does not in any way mean that humans can travel into their past or influence their own history.

Given the widespread generic use of QT, plus the paradigm-changing tenets of biocentrism, using QT as evidence might raise eyebrows among the skeptical. For this reason, it’s important that readers have some genuine understanding of QT’s actual experiments — and can grasp the real results rather than the preposterous claims so often associated with it. For those with a little patience, this chapter can provide a life-altering understanding of the latest version of one of the most famous and amazing experiments in the history of physics.

.............

Here the last part of the article:

.............

The usual interpretation of why we see an interference pattern is that photons or electrons have two choices when they encounter the double slit. They do not actually exist as real entities in real places until they are observed, and they aren’t observed until they hit the final detection barrier. So when they reach the slits, they exercise their probabilistic freedom of taking both choices. Even though actual electrons or photons are indivisible, and never split themselves under any conditions whatsoever, their existence as “probability waves” are another story. Thus, what goes “through the slit” are not actual entities but just probabilities. . THE PROBABILITY WAVES OF THE INDIVIDUAL PHOTONS INTERFERE WITH THEMSELVES! When enough have gone through, we see the overall interference pattern as all probabilities congeal into actual entities making impacts and being observed – as waves.

Sure it’s weird, but this, apparently, is how reality works. And this is just the very beginning of Quantum Weirdness. QT, as we mentioned last chapter, has a principle called complementarity which says that we can observe objects to be one thing or another – or have one position or property or another, but never both. It depends on what one is looking for, and what measuring equipment is used.

Now, suppose we wish to know which slit a given electron or photon has gone through, on its way to the barrier. It’s a fair enough question, and it’s easy enough to find out. We can use polarized light (meaning light whose waves vibrate either horizontally or vertically or else slowly rotate their orientation) and when such a mixture is used, we get the same result as before. But now let’s determine which slit each photon is going through. Many different things have been used, but in this experiment we’ll use a “quarter wave plate” in front of each slit. Each quarter wave plate alters the polarity of the light in a specific way. The detector can let us know the polarity of the incoming photon. So by noting the polarity of the photon when it’s detected, we know which slit it went through.

http://i50.tinypic.com/xge0z4.gif

Now we repeat the experiment, shooting photons through the slits one at a time, except this time we know which slot each photon goes through. Now the results dramatically change. Even though QWPs do not alter photons except for harmlessly shifting their polarities (later we prove that this change in results is not caused by the QWPs), now we no longer get the interference pattern. Now the curve suddenly changes to what we’d expect if the photons were particles:

http://i50.tinypic.com/4imnpt.gif

Something’s happened. Turns out, the mere act of measurement, of learning the path of each photon, destroyed the photon’s freedom to remain blurry and undefined and take both paths until it reached the barriers. Its “wave function” must have collapsed at our measuring device, the QWPs, as it instantly “chose” to become a particle and go through one slit or the other. Its wave nature was lost as soon as it lost its blurry probabilistic not-quite-real state. But why should the photon have chosen to collapse its wave-function? How did it know that we, the observer, could learn which slit it went through?

Countless attempts to get around this, by the greatest minds of the past century, have all failed. Our knowledge of the photon or electron path alone caused it to become a definite entity ahead of the previous time. Of course physicists also wondered whether this bizarre behavior might be caused by some interaction between the “which-way” QWP detector or various other devices that have been tried, and the photon. But no. Totally different which-way detectors have been built, none of which in any way disturbs the photon. Yet we always lose the interference pattern. The bottom line conclusion, reached after many years, is that it’s simply not possible to gain which-way information and the interference pattern caused by energy-waves.

We’re back to QT’s complementarity – that you can measure and learn just one of a pair of characteristics, but never both at the same time. If you fully learn about one, you will know nothing about the other. And just in case you’re suspicious of the quarter wave plates, let it be said when used in all other contexts, including double slit experiments but without information-providing polarization-detecting barriers at the end, the mere act of changing a photon’s polarization never has the slightest effect on the creation of an interference pattern.

Okay, let’s try something else. In nature, as we saw in the last chapter, there are “entangled particles” or bits of light (or matter) that were born together and therefore “share a wave function” according to QT. They can fly apart – even across the width of the galaxy – and yet they still retain this connection, this knowledge of each other. If one is meddled with in any way so that it loses its “anything’s possible” nature and has to instantly decide to materialize with, say, a vertical polarization, its twin will instantaneously then materialize too, and with a horizontal polarity. If one becomes an electron with an up spin, the twin will too, but with a down spin. They’re eternally linked in a complementary way.

So now let’s use a device which shoots off entangled twins in different directions. Experimenters can create the entangled photons by using a special crystal called beta-barium borate (BBO). Inside the crystal, an energetic violet photon from a laser is converted to two red photons, each with half the energy (twice the wavelength) of the original, so there’s no net gain or loss of energy. The two outbound entangled photons are sent off in different directions. We’ll call their paths direction p and s.

http://i47.tinypic.com/bdjr7p.gif

We’ll set up our original experiment with no which-way information measured. Except now, we add a “coincidence counter.” The role of the coincidence counter is to prevent us from learning the polarity of the photons at detector S unless a photon also hits detector P. One twin goes through the slits (call this photon s) while the other merely barrels ahead to a second detector. Only when both detectors register hits at about the same time do we know that both twins have completed their journeys. Only then does something register on our equipment. The resulting pattern at detector S is our familiar interference pattern:

http://i49.tinypic.com/veb229.gif

This makes sense. We haven’t learned which slit any particular photon or electron has taken. So the objects have remained probability waves.

But let’s now get tricky. First we’ll restore those QWPs so we can get which-way information for photons traveling along path S.

http://i45.tinypic.com/33p6490.gif

As expected, the interference pattern now vanishes, replaced with the particle pattern, the single curve.

http://i45.tinypic.com/zkr1n6.gif

So far so good. But now let’s destroy our ability to measure the which-way paths of the s photons, but without interfering with them in any way. We can do this by placing a polarizing window in the path of the other photon P, far away. This plate will stop the second detector from registering coincidences. It’ll measure only some of the photons, and effectively scramble up the double-signals. Since a coincidence-counter is essential here in delivering information about the completion of the twins’ journeys, it has now been rendered thoroughly unreliable. The entire apparatus will now be uselessly unable to let us learn which slit individual photons take when they travel along path S because we won’t be able to compare them with their twins – since nothing registers unless the coincidence counter allows it to. And let’s be clear: We’ve left the QWPs in place for photon S. All we’ve done is to meddle with the p photon’s path in a way that removes our ability to use the coincidence counter to gain which-way knowledge. (The set-up, to review, delivers information to us, registers “hits,” only when polarity is measured at detector S AND the coincidence counter tells us that either a matching or non-matching polarity has been simultaneously registered by the twin photon at detector P). The result:

http://i47.tinypic.com/11qjome.gif

They’re waves again. The interference pattern is back. The physical places on the back screen where the photons or electrons taking path s hit have now changed. Yet we did nothing to these photons’ paths, from their creation at the crystal all the way to the final detector. We even left the QWPs in place. All we did was meddle with the twin photon far away so that it destroyed our ability to learn information. The only change was in our minds. How could photons taking path S possibly know that we put that other polarizer in place — somewhere else, far from their own paths? And QT tells us that we’d get this same result even if we placed the information-ruiner at the other end of the universe.

(Also, by the way, this proves that it wasn’t those QWP plates that were causing the photons to change from waves to particles, and to alter the impact points on the detector. We now get an interference pattern even with the QWPs in place. It’s our knowledge alone that the photons or electrons seem concerned about. This alone influences their actions.)

Okay, this is bizarre. Yet these results happen every time, without fail. They’re telling us that an observer determines physical behavior of “external” objects. Could it get any weirder? Hold on: Now we’ll try something even more radical – an experiment only first performed in 2002. Thus far the experiment involved erasing the which-way information by meddling with the path of p and then measuring its twin s. Perhaps some sort of communication takes place between photon p and s, letting s know what we will learn, and therefore giving it the green light to be a particle or a wave and either create or not create an interference pattern. Maybe when photon p meets the polarizer it sends s an IM (instant message) at infinite speed, so that photon s knows it must materialize into a real entity instantly, which has to be a particle since only particles can go through one slit or the other and not both. Result: No interference pattern.

To check out whether this is so, we’ll do one more thing. First we’ll stretch out the distance p photons have to take until they reach their detector, so it’ll take them more time to get there. This way, photons taking the S route will hit their own detectors first. But oddly enough, the results do not change! When we insert the QWPs to path S the fringes are gone; and when we insert the polarizing scrambler to path P and lose the coincidence-measuring ability that lets us determine which-way info for the S photons, the fringes return as before. But how can this be? Photons taking the S-path already finished their journeys. They either went through one or the other slit, or both. They either collapsed their “wave function” and became a particle or they didn’t. The game’s over, the action’s finished. They’ve each already hit the final barrier and were detected – before twin p encountered the polarizing scrambling device that would rob us of which-way information.

The photons somehow know whether or not we will gain the which-way information in the future. They decide not to collapse into particles before their distant twins even encounter our scrambler. (If we take away the P scrambler, the S photons suddenly revert to being particles, again before P’s photons reach their detector and activate the coincidence counter.) Somehow, photon s knows whether the “which-way” marker will be erased even though neither it, nor its twin, have yet encountered an erasing mechanism. It knows when its interference behavior can be present, when it can safely remain in its fuzzy both-slits ghost reality, because it apparently knows photon p — far off in the distance — is going to eventually hit the scrambler, and that this will ultimately prevent us from learning which way p went.

It doesn’t matter how we set up the experiment. Our mind and its knowledge or lack of it is the only thing that determines how these bits of light or matter behave. It forces us, too, to wonder about space and time. Can either be real if the twins act on information before it happens, and across distances instantaneously as if there is no separation between them?

Again and again, observations have consistently confirmed the observer-dependent effects of QT. In the past decade, physicists at the National Institute of Standards and Technology have carried out an experiment that, in the quantum world, is equivalent to demonstrating that a watched pot doesn’t boil. “It seems,” said Peter Coveney, a researcher there, “that the act of looking at an atom prevents it from changing.” (Theoretically, if a nuclear bomb were watched intently enough, it would not explode, that is, if you could keep checking its atoms every million trillionth of a second. This is yet another experiment that supports the theory that the structure of the physical world, and of small units of matter and energy in particular, are influenced by human observation.)

In the last couple of decades, quantum theorists have shown, in principle, that an atom cannot change its energy state as long as it is being continuously observed. So, now, to test this concept, the group of laser experimentalists at the NIST held a cluster of positively charged beryllium ions, the “water” so to speak, in a fixed position using a magnetic field, the “kettle”. They applied “heat” to the kettle in the form of a radio-frequency field that would boost the atoms from a lower to a higher energy state. This transition generally takes about a quarter of a second. However, when the researchers kept checking the atoms every four milliseconds with a brief pulse of light from a laser, the atoms never made it to the higher energy state, despite the force driving them toward it. It would seem that the process of measurement gives the atoms “a little nudge,” forcing them back down to the lower energy state–in effect, resetting the system to zero. This behavior has no analog in the classical world of everyday sense awareness and is apparently a function of observation.

Arcane? Bizarre? It’s hard to believe such effects are real. It’s a fantastic result. When quantum physics was in its early days of discovery in the beginning of the last century, even some physicists dismissed the experimental findings as impossible or improbable. It is curious to recall Albert Einstein’s reaction to the experiments: “I know this business is free of contradictions, yet in my view it contains a certain unreasonableness.”

It was only with the advent of quantum physics and the fall of objectivity, that scientists began to consider again the old question of the possibility of comprehending the world as a form of mind. Einstein, on a walk from The Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton to his home on Mercer street, illustrated his continued fascination and skepticism about an objective external reality, when he asked Abraham Pais if he really believed that the moon existed only if he looked at it. Since that time, physicists have analyzed and revised their equations in a vain attempt to arrive at a statement of natural laws that in no way depends on the circumstances of the observer. Indeed, Eugene Wigner, one of the 20th century’s greatest physicists, stated that it is “not possible to formulate the laws of [physics] in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness [of the observer].” So when quantum theory implies that consciousness must exist, it tacitly shows that the content of the mind is the ultimate reality, and that only an act of observation can confer shape and form to reality– from a dandelion in a meadow, to sun, wind and rain.

http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/is-death-an-illusion-evidence-suggests-death-isnt-the-end/

[Finefeather]

It was only with the advent of quantum physics and the fall of objectivity, that scientists began to consider again the old question of the possibility of comprehending the world as a form of mind. Einstein, on a walk from The Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton to his home on Mercer street, illustrated his continued fascination and skepticism about an objective external reality, when he asked Abraham Pais if he really believed that the moon existed only if he looked at it. Since that time, physicists have analyzed and revised their equations in a vain attempt to arrive at a statement of natural laws that in no way depends on the circumstances of the observer. Indeed, Eugene Wigner, one of the 20th century’s greatest physicists, stated that it is “not possible to formulate the laws of [physics] in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness [of the observer].” So when quantum theory implies that consciousness must exist, it tacitly shows that the content of the mind is the ultimate reality, and that only an act of observation can confer shape and form to reality– from a dandelion in a meadow, to sun, wind and rain.
..."equating the advent of quantum physics with the fall of objectivity" is another way of saying that we only see what we want to see and this is evident in life and the real reason we each might describe the same thing differently...However, that does not mean the object is different. Another thing to think about is peripheral vision...although we are..say...only concentrating on the thing in front of us, the rest of the picture is still there...albeit a bit unnoticed. It is only when we close our eyes that the objective world does not exist for us anymore...it still exists in our mind and in the objective reality of the guy next to you with his eyes open. The more conscious we are the clearer objectivity becomes.
Lovely subject...
Take care
Ray

[ThePythonicCow]

The premise of this thread concerns whether this particular reality is controlled from an hyperdimensional source. It uses the Holographic Universe Model as the foundation of that premise. The Holographic Universe Model is built upon observations from a physics lab specifically related to the nature of how electrons behave in a certain experiment. Therefore, I would respectfully request that you, or any other individual wishing to debunk the premise of this thread show the members specifically where barium borate crystal (BBO) had an effect on experiments involving electrons.
I will concede that it is quite doubtful that BBO would be useful in such an experiment involving electrons. I would expect (though have not verified this) that the electrons would bounce off, or be absorbed by, the BBO, not pass through, much less pass through and do anything with the electrons analogous to producing two entangled down-converted photons for each incoming photon, a process called spontaneous parametric down-conversion (SPDC) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_parametric_down-conversion).

Here is a screen shot from part three of the Workshop material you posted, near the beginning of the portion by Thomas Campbell.


http://thepythoniccow.us/quantum_erasure_experiments.jpg
At the point that I took this screenshot, Mr. Campbell is saying the words "and these are called quantum erasure experiments." On the screen shot, you can see the phrases "Light is a wave", "Light is a particle", and "1 Photon".

In my Post #86 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=649793&viewfull=1#post649793) above, I tracked down more accurate descriptions of these quantum erasure experiments using light photons, and they involved BBO crystals and entangled photons, so that observations can be made of, and alterations made to, one entangled photon while its sibling traverses the dual slit apparatus.

As I reported above, a more accurate description of these experiments shows subtle interactions with the test equipment, including even interactions (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=650206&viewfull=1#post650206) that clearly show the quantum entanglement that I earlier (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=649580&viewfull=1#post649580) disparaged, but all these interactions are over and done with in the space of a fraction of a microsecond, and do not involve or depend on conscious human awareness. Mr. Campbell's interpretations of these experiments, such as in his Gedankenexperiment (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=649793&viewfull=1#post649793), are in my view, as I explained, seriously incorrect.

The key lesson implicit in my earlier posts on this thread, which I will now make explicit, is that it is risky to accept others interpretations of experimental results. If the results are important to one's own work, one needs to track down as closely as practical the original research and understand it and verify whether the interpretations are justified.

It is, as I just documented above, the case that Stephen Davis's Workshop material quotes Thomas Campbell discussing quantum erasure experiments using photons of light. I did nothing improper or misleading by presenting in more detail these experiments using photons, au contraire.

It may well also be the case that some experiments involving electrons support the conclusions of this Workshop and your position in this thread. If you wish that we also discuss experiments with electrons, not just photons, on the grounds that the "Holographic Universe Model is built upon observations from a physics lab specifically related to the nature of how electrons behave in a certain experiment," then the burden of proof lies with you to:

Show that the Workshop Material of Stephen Davis that you presented is supported by this "Holographic Universe Model".
Show that the "Holographic Universe Model" is built upon observations relating to electrons.
Track down these observations relating to electrons as close as practical to the actual experimental results (not someone else's interpretations or simplified expositions).
Show, if this is the conclusion you would have us reach, that the actual experiments demonstrate the essential involvement of human consciousness in determining their results.

~~~~~~~~

I would also add, that contained within the data you have provided from Thomas Campbell, where he makes the assertion that, "we are living in a virtual reality", how do you see this as any difference from comparing this to an Holographic Universe? Perhaps we are talking semantics here.

Virtual Reality/Holographic Universe, isn't the basic assumption of either an [acknowledgement] of a control mechanism?

The phrases "virtual reality" or "holographic universe" are metaphors, attempting to describe something quite unfamiliar to us in terms more familiar to us. As such, metaphors always have their particular limitations, past which they no longer properly describe the actuality. One cannot deduce hidden aspects of a reality from the logical properties of some metaphor for that reality. Or, as I wrote earlier (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=649793&viewfull=1#post649793): "Do not confuse the model with what it models." This same caveat applies when the model is a metaphor as when it is a physics theory.

In other words, as I have stated before in this thread, I absolutely disagree with the conclusions that some controlling agent, as an identifiable separate and intelligent entity, exists separately from our "holographic" universe. Just because there is elaborate structure does not mean there must be a distinct designer of that structure, just as the existence of an elaborately created universe does not mean there must be a separate creator of that universe. Just because this holographic metaphor (such as we see on our credit card security symbol or in the movies) has a separate and distinct designer does not mean that our "holographic" reality has such a designer. Similarly, using a metaphor from an earlier century, just because a watch has an intelligent designer, distinct from the watch itself, doesn't mean the universe has one.

(And besides, I don't much concern myself with what phrases Thomas Campbell uses, as I find at least his efforts to ground his work in physics to be seriously flawed, as I enumerated earlier (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=649793&viewfull=1#post649793).)

[heyokah]

..."equating the advent of quantum physics with the fall of objectivity" is another way of saying that we only see what we want to see......

.....,or what we have been programed to see, leaving us with just a possibility to add a little personal 'flavor' to it.

Now the question is, " Who or what is doing the programming, who or what is writing the blueprint, or the play we have to perform in?

[Finefeather]

..."equating the advent of quantum physics with the fall of objectivity" is another way of saying that we only see what we want to see......

.....,or what we have been programed to see, leaving us with just a possibility to add a little personal 'flavor' to it.

Now the question is, " Who or what is doing the programming, who or what is writing the blueprint, or the play we have to perform in?
There is no programming...Our ignorance and bad attitudes cause our uphills...our wisdom and love cause our downhills.

[ThePythonicCow]

The Most Amazing Experiment (http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/is-death-an-illusion-evidence-suggests-death-isnt-the-end/)

From Biocentrism (Robert Lanza and Bob Berman)
Yes, as I noted in my Post #109 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=650206&viewfull=1#post650206), this is some delightful work. Both the material you post, and the material I posted there, refer to work done by S. P. Walborn, M. O. Terra Cunha, S. Padua, and C. H. Monken at the Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais in Brazil. Their work was published in March 2002, in Physical Review A, (65, 033818, 2002). The pdf version of the publication can be found here. (http://grad.physics.sunysb.edu/~amarch/Walborn.pdf)


Now we repeat the experiment, shooting photons through the slits one at a time, except this time we know which slot each photon goes through. Now the results dramatically change. Even though QWPs do not alter photons except for harmlessly shifting their polarities (later we prove that this change in results is not caused by the QWPs), now we no longer get the interference pattern. Now the curve suddenly changes to what we’d expect if the photons were particles:


Of course physicists also wondered whether this bizarre behavior might be caused by some interaction between the “which-way” QWP detector or various other devices that have been tried, and the photon. But no. Totally different which-way detectors have been built, none of which in any way disturbs the photon. Yet we always lose the interference pattern. The bottom line conclusion, reached after many years, is that it’s simply not possible to gain which-way information and the interference pattern caused by energy-waves.
The above two bold phrases are mutually contradictory, therefore at least one of them is false:

except for harmlessly shifting their polarities
none of which in any way disturbs the photon



All we did was meddle with the twin photon far away so that it destroyed our ability to learn information. The only change was in our minds. How could photons taking path S possibly know that we put that other polarizer in place — somewhere else, far from their own paths? And QT tells us that we’d get this same result even if we placed the information-ruiner at the other end of the universe.
This bold phrase is also false. There were changes to the laboratory equipment, as clearly spelled out, in both the document you referenced and the one I referenced. Moreover, the changed results of the experiment would have occurred (I claim) even if no human mind noticed! It was exactly the changed laboratory setup, not the change within or conscious notice by some human mind(s), that changed the results.


To check out whether this is so, we’ll do one more thing. First we’ll stretch out the distance p photons have to take until they reach their detector, so it’ll take them more time to get there.

...
It doesn’t matter how we set up the experiment. Our mind and its knowledge or lack of it is the only thing that determines how these bits of light or matter behave. It forces us, too, to wonder about space and time. Can either be real if the twins act on information before it happens, and across distances instantaneously as if there is no separation between them?
What they have here are an excellent demonstrations of quantum entanglement, of action at a distance, and that there is more going on "beneath the surface" than our intuitions, currently formed from the physics of Newton, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and the Standard Model, can explain. If for example, events unnoticed in our current conventional physics models, occurred at super-luminal speeds, ahead of a photon's travel, before it "arrived" at a place, intimately related to that photon's journey, then the principle of causality need not be violated, and no "magic" recourse to "it all being just a figment of our imagination" need be made.

But what they do is to take this excellent demonstration of quantum entanglement and action at a distance, and then apply to it the constraints of our current conventional physics, to "prove" that it didn't really happen that way, that it's really a grand version of Hollywood special effects played out on a universal scale, where the impossible is made to appear real on the screen of our minds.

Their "proof" proves no such thing. It just proves that our conventional physics has its limits, and that there is more to the underlying reality than we can explain with such physics.


Again and again, observations have consistently confirmed the observer-dependent effects of QT.
The final fatal logical flaw ... all the above is twisted (using manifestly false statements as noted above) and using manifestly limited physics (as their own work so delightfully demonstrates) to anthropomorphize changes in the laboratory setup. We are told that what are actually changes in the detection and manipulation equipment used in the experiments is actually only changes in human observations. Not so.

[heyokah]

Paul, thank you for all the time and effort you have been putting into this thread by giving your personal interpretations of what has been presented here in the form of videos, articles and statements.....

Add.....but don't ask me to agree with you ..... ;-)

[Hervé]

Observer,

What I find disconcerting is that the whole premise on which you intend to direct this thread is based on this :


Applying Quantum Theory To Understanding This Particular Reality


FOUNDATIONAL UNDERSTANDING:

In the world of quantum physics, matter does not exist unless it is being observed.

... This fact of quantum physics has been shown to be a reproducible phenomenon in countless variations of a physics experiment known as The Double-Slit Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment), or Young's Interference Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment).

This Double-Slit Experiment has been re-tested in numerous physics labs all over the planet, always with the same results - objective results. The conclusions of this experiment are, just as previously stated, "matter does not exist unless it is being observed".

Which doesn't stand to scrutiny as I summarized here:


If you refer to the Double Slit Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment) and Young's Interference Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment), then I indeed am talking apple with respect to apples since the "photon" strange behavior of either a particle or a wave started the whole thing and was the base for similar experiments yielding similar results for electrons behaving either as waves or as particles

Now, if you watch the video I posted, the video uploader demonstrate the same pattern applying to all "particles" from photon to galaxies... so, again, I am comparing apples with apples: some small and some real big.

To claim that "matter does not exist unless it is being observed" is more than erroneous... "it's not even wrong" in the words of Jack Safartti since matter does exist as a condensation of energy flows whether it is observed or not; but, most of all, the double-slit experiment still yields identical results of wave/particles even with buckyballs.

One very plausible answer is explained in that video I posted as well as its two previous parts.

So, let me expand on that:

First, as Paul mentioned, the word "observed" is misleading since in the actual fact of the physicality of the experiment, it is physically being interfered with.

Second, arbitrarily separating photons from electron as being different is not supported by the fact that either photons or electrons behave in the same manner in the double-slit experiment which is an indication that both entities are built on a similar model. A plausible model is given by David Lapoint in his Primer Fields videos.

The only difference I see between photons and electrons is a degree of energy condensation. You know: E/C^2 = M as a close enough approximation.

Third, if "matter didn't exist unless observed," the whole subject of chemistry wouldn't exist.

This doesn't mean I don't understand what you are aiming at nor that matter can't be interfered with; after all, spoons can be bent when there are actual spoons :)

However, that brings us to a different field and that is the field of the mind in which one would have to thoroughly be cleared of all hypnotic trances in order to be able to observe "reality":


Cosmic Cointelpro Timeline (http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/timeline.htm)

Agents of the world's elite have been long engaged in a war on the populace of Earth. Greed is the motivation for this war, a greed so pervasive that it encompasses the planet and all of the beings on it, but in recent times a philosophy has been used to justify that greed. It is the philosophy of mass control, that ultimately aims at dictating every aspect of human life - even remolding man's perception of reality and himself. [Jim Keith, Mass Control: Engineering Human Consciousness]


There is a little known fact about hypnosis that is illustrated by the following story:
A subject was told under hypnosis that when he was awakened he would be unable to see a third man in the room who, it was suggested to him, would have become invisible. All the "proper" suggestions to make this "true" were given, such as "you will NOT see so- and-so" etc... When the subject was awakened, lo and behold! the suggestions did NOT work.

Why? Because they went against his belief system. He did NOT believe that a person could become invisible.

So, another trial was made. The subject was hypnotized again and was told that the third man was leaving the room... that he had been called away on urgent business, and the scene of him getting on his coat and hat was described... the door was opened and shut to provide "sound effects," and then the subject was brought out of the trance.

Guess what happened?

He was UNABLE TO SEE the Third Man.

Why? Because his perceptions were modified according to his beliefs. Certain "censors" in his brain were activated in a manner that was acceptable to his ego survival instincts.

The ways and means that we ensure survival of the ego are established pretty early in life by our parental and societal programming. This conditioning determines what IS or is NOT possible; what we are "allowed" to believe in order to be accepted. We learn this first by learning what pleases our parents and then later we modify our belief based on what pleases our society - our peers - to believe.

Anyway, to return to our story, the Third Man went about the room picking things up and setting them down and doing all sorts of things to test the subject's awareness of his presence, and the subject became utterly hysterical at this "anomalous" activity! He could see objects moving through the air, doors opening and closing, but he could NOT see the SOURCE because he did not believe that there was another man in the room.

So, what are the implications of this factor of human consciousness? (By the way, this is also the reason why most therapies to stop bad habits do not work - they attempt to operate against a "belief system" that is imprinted in the subconscious that this or that habit is essential to survival.)

One of the first things we might observe is that everyone has a different set of beliefs based upon their social and familial conditioning, and that these beliefs determine how much of the OBJECTIVE reality anyone is able to access.

In the above story, the objective reality IS WHAT IT IS, whether it is truly objective, or only a consensus reality. In this story, there is clearly a big part of that reality that is inaccessible to the subject due to a perception censor which was activated by the suggestions of the hypnotist. That is to say, the subject has a strong belief, based upon his CHOICE as to who or what to believe - the hypnotist or his own, unfettered observations of reality. In this case, he has chosen to believe the hypnotist and not what he might be able to observe if he dispensed with the perception censor put in place by the hypnotist who activated his "belief center" - even if that activation was fraudulent.

And so it is with nearly all human beings: we believe the hypnotist - the "official culture" - and we are able, with preternatural cunning, to deny what is often right in front of our faces. And in the case of the hypnosis subject, he is entirely at the mercy of the "Invisible Man" because he chooses not to see him.


Here reproduced by Derren Brown:


VTobS-09fBQ

[CD7]

One of the first things we might observe is that everyone has a different set of beliefs based upon their social and familial conditioning, and that these beliefs determine how much of the OBJECTIVE reality anyone is able to access.


I find this to b a good point...given this statement really emphasizes the ultimate importance of cultivating and educating the populace to create/see in a way tht expands horizons and breaks the chains of our narrow slit visions....in this hologram we are not creating to our highest potential

[Carmody]

after reading page one,a problem erupts.

An analogy that carries through:

objective evidence.

wave-particle is a component of this?

Objective means particle, no wave.

Subjective means wave.

So you want only particle evidence?

Am I getting this right?

That you want ....only imbalance, just half... as representative of all?

Would you like fries with that? :)

Observer, I truly do appreciate the effort, no disrespect intended. If continuance down the road of pure objectivity can carry people down into the rabbit hole, then so be it. Whatever road they take - is fine.

[heyokah]

Paul, thank you for all the time and effort you have been putting into this thread by giving your personal interpretations of what has been presented here in the form of videos, articles and statements.....

Add

.....but don't ask me to agree with you ..... ;-)

My reason to add the Add :)

The experiment, on the conclusion of which you gave your own personal interpretation (see your reply 120 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=650468&viewfull=1#post650468)), came from chapter "The Most Amazing Experiment" , "BIOCENTRISM" by Robert Lanza M.D.

I want to end my participation to the discussion in this thread by showing again what was written in Wikipedia about BIOCENTRISM. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biocentrism_(theory_of_everything)) See my comment 110 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=650223&viewfull=1#post650223)


****
Some physicists have commented that biocentrism currently does not make testable predictions.
Dr. Vinod Kumar Wadhawan and Ajita Kamal responded to the idea by stating that "The biocentrism approach does not provide any new information about the nature of consciousness, and relies on ignoring recent advances in understanding consciousness from a scientific perspective."
Biologist PZ Meyers supported their views as well. Arizona State University physicist Lawrence Krauss stated, “It may represent interesting philosophy, but it doesn't look, at first glance, as if it will change anything about science."
In USA Today Online, theoretical physicist and science writer David Lindley asserted that Lanza’s concept was a "vague, inarticulate metaphor" and stated that "I certainly don't see how thinking his way would lead you into any new sort of scientific or philosophical insight. That's all very nice, I would say to Lanza, but now what? I [also] take issue with his views about physics."

Richard Conn Henry, Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Johns Hopkins University writing for the Journal of Scientific Exploration said: “What Lanza says in this book is not new. Then why does Robert have to say it at all? It is because we, the physicists, do NOT say it––or if we do say it, we only whisper it, and in private––furiously blushing as we mouth the words.......... True, yes; politically correct, hell no!”....


****

[ThePythonicCow]

Paul, thank you for all the time and effort you have been putting into this thread by giving your personal interpretations of what has been presented here in the form of videos, articles and statements.....

Add

.....but don't ask me to agree with you ..... ;-)

My reason to add the Add :)

The experiment, on the conclusion of which you gave your own personal interpretation (see your reply 120 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=650468&viewfull=1#post650468)), came from chapter "The Most Amazing Experiment" , "BIOCENTRISM" by Robert Lanza M.D.
I am not disagreeing with this biocentrism :). It may well have an essential truth.

I'm just saying that such truth as there may be there is not there because of the results of these dual slit experiments.

My comments are on the physics, not on the role or nature of higher levels of consciousness.

Just because I don't think that B is true because A is true (on the grounds that A isn't true) doesn't mean I am taking a position on B one way or the other. Here "A" are the results of these dual slit experiments, and "B" is such positions on biocentrism as you're are commenting on.

I have seen this dichotomy before in such discussions. I tear down flaws in the physical science results, and people who are using (incorrectly in my view) those physical science results to "prove" some higher principles react as if I am attacking those higher principles, which I'm not doing.

If you said you knew that your cousin was in the south of France right now because he just telephoned you and told you that, and if I then pointed out that the telephone line has been down for the last day so he couldn't have telephoned you, that doesn't mean I am claiming your cousin is not in the south of France. He may well be there (he just didn't phone you to say that.)

[passiglight]

ahhhh,,, the computer game of life experience, held in the cosmic hologram of earth.....

we log on when we are born into the game and we log off when we depart.

to go to the next level as in any computer game we have to complete all the "stages"

that particular game is ended when all levels are completed within that game.

we even play the game from the outside just as with a playstation game for example.

cosmic game of love

[CD7]

ahhhh,,, the computer game of life experience, held in the cosmic hologram of earth.....

we log on when we are born into the game and we log off when we depart.

to go to the next level as in any computer game we have to complete all the "stages"

that particular game is ended when all levels are completed within that game.

we even play the game from the outside just as with a playstation game for example.

cosmic game of love


I just wish when i logged on and starting playing the game, i knew my IDENTITY.....and wht i was doing!?

[heyokah]

If you said you knew that your cousin was in the south of France right now because he just telephoned you and told you that, and if I then pointed out that the telephone line has been down for the last day so he couldn't have telephoned you, that doesn't mean I am claiming your cousin is not in the south of France. He may well be there (he just didn't phone you to say that.)

????

If I have spoken to my cousin, I have spoken to my cousin. Through a phone line or his cell phone.
You might have drawn your conclusions from false interpretations of messages through MSM. Maybe it was another phone line that was out of order.... Or it was your own phone that was out of order. Who says your information was right?
It was all your personal interpretation of what you had heard, read or assumed.

If I have spoken to my cousin.... I have spoken to my cousin .

Be well brother :)

[ThePythonicCow]

If I have spoken to my cousin, I have spoken to my cousin. Through a phone line or his cell phone.

My analogy was a poor one. I was trying to concoct an analogy that showed I might accept your conclusions even if I knew that your justifications for them to be incorrect.

In the actual present case, you have not run those experiments. Not even the one's you are listening to have run them. You are taking someone else's interpretation of yet someone else's work as correct. That interpretation is wrong, as I have clearly demonstrated in several different ways. But that does not mean I am agreeing or disagreeing here with the views you hold regarding biocentrism or the nature of higher levels of consciousness. It just means I have shown that those physics experiments don't prove your views correct.

Please don't take my dismantling of the interpretations that Mr. Campbell presents of those double slit experiments as attacks on your views regarding biocentrism and such. They are not.

Please.

[Youniverse]

ahhhh,,, the computer game of life experience, held in the cosmic hologram of earth.....

we log on when we are born into the game and we log off when we depart.

to go to the next level as in any computer game we have to complete all the "stages"

that particular game is ended when all levels are completed within that game.

we even play the game from the outside just as with a playstation game for example.

cosmic game of love

Yeah I have a friend that often refers to people as game icons. Ones soul is the player I suppose. So of course, just like in any video game, the game icon is not really you at all. It is just a character you choose to play around with for awhile.

¤=[Post Update]=¤



ahhhh,,, the computer game of life experience, held in the cosmic hologram of earth.....

we log on when we are born into the game and we log off when we depart.

to go to the next level as in any computer game we have to complete all the "stages"

that particular game is ended when all levels are completed within that game.

we even play the game from the outside just as with a playstation game for example.

cosmic game of love


I just wish when i logged on and starting playing the game, i knew my IDENTITY.....and wht i was doing!?

Don't we all :). Though I suppose there has to be a good reason why we don't.

[lookbeyond]

Shall we discuss the topic reguardless?- after all it is important-lb

[72MAV27]

nice thread. you guys are some smart "cats"
anyway im reading this from my computer at work which doesn't have the latest flash update so i couldn't watch the videos. but i did read the whole thread and about 95% of the comments. but i do have a pretty good knowledge base on the subject at hand

observer imho it's going to be extremly hard for you to get nothing but objective evidence to support anything. as you said yourself "each individuals experience within this particular reality is a wholly subjective interpretation of the quantum field of infinite potential"

i agree with that statement but i disagree with the opinion that so called "objective evidence" somehow is more valid or trumps "subjective evidence". in this reality we live in how many things can you really say are completly objective? imho very few. and of those very few most of the truly objective data in this reality revolves around numbers and mathematics.

you also said "In comparing apples to apples, everyone perceives an apple in a similar fashion, as is the case with all perceptions of elemental atomic structure within this particular reality" i also must respectfully disagree with that statement. there are plenty of people alive right now that preceive reality in ways that go against the mainstream. these people are usually diagnosed with some sort of mental disability or just flat out labled crazy. i wonder if that deters others who may preceive reality similarly from admitting to it for fear of the repercussions.

imho all tho science is to be repected and has given us countless revloutions and answered many questins for humanity. there is a flaw in thinking that the scientific method of obtaining "objective data" should be the only method to be taken is serious or factual. i actually have a very close friend and him and i argue/debate this all the time. he always tells me that using the scientific method is the only way to go because it gives only "objective data" and any claim must be faulsifiable. another one he always hits me with is "extraordinary claims must have extraordinary evidence to back them up" the funny thing is we actually agree on probly about 85% of things

but the flaw i see in science and the scientific method is that its always in a state of change and reinventing itself.(for lack of a better term). my friend thinks thats what makes it great. but i find that to be extremly limiting. that means that we must wait for science to make new discoveries and reinvent itself before we can move forward.

science tells us many things and then upon futher study and investigation it tells us they were wrong about that and they revise and amend previously held theories or beliefs. the problem is i or someone else might have already known through "subjective evidence" what science later finds out through use of the scientific method. right at this moment someone maybe proficient at telepathy or remote viewing and be laughed at because science has not siad(atleast publicly) that it is possible. so in 20 years when science finds out that it is possible is that person's "subjective data" validated?

anyway i'm ranting now. peace!

[observer]

In reply to 72MAV27's comment #133,

Although there are several previous comments that I would like to address, I will address this one, out of sequence, because it is so very relevant to the flow of this thread.

Thank you so much 72' for that comment.

Like your friend, I too am one of those millions of critical thinkers who needs the provable facts in order to 'certify' something to be verifiable. Please don't take this to mean that I reject all personal experiences as being artificial, this is simply not the case. I only ask those kinds of subjective testimonies (witnessing) be kept from this thread.

Allow me to explain why:
Over thirty years of my adult life was spent in faithful dedication to the channeled message. There is not one scintilla of objective evidence to confirm the source of these messages. For the individual doing the channeling, the source of those messages may appear quite benign. For the subscriber to the channeler, those interpretations are purely subjective. No one in the loop can confirm the messages from any particular source are not cleverly manipulated lies.

If one reviews a spectrum of reports regarding messages received from the Astral Plane/Quantum Field - dating back to the Dawn of Man - one will clearly see this phenomenon has been a cleverly manipulated lie. I include in this review, messages from seers, mediums, prophets, remote viewers, channelers, etc., as these semantics are all describing the same phenomenon.

The purpose of this thread is to discover provable facts, objective facts, that will demonstrate this Quantum Field/Astral Plane is being cleverly manipulated.

With regard to the "apples-to-apples" comparison, it was mentioned in the quote your provided, we are speaking of the commonality found in regard to "atomic structure", i.e., everyone perceives lead to be lead, gold to be gold, silver to be silver, etc. These are the "atomic structures" of the periodic table of elements. It is the combination of these elements that form the basis of all we see as, "being real".

How each individual interprets this commonality is purely a personal experience, and to be avoided as evidence in this investigation.


Allow us to move-on into this investigation, even though there may be those who contend the science behind the Holographic Universe Model is flawed. This assertion is simply not accurate. All one need do is spend some time researching the Holographic Universe Model, and one will quickly realize there are some brilliant minds (in all of the sciences, and in all aspects of life) subscribing to this concept.

[lightseeker]

Thanks Observer for your post. I was aware of much of what you have posted and I tend to look things from a Scientific view point. I guess it is the way I learn, or at least one of the ways I learn. Objective/Subjective, interesting. At the end of the day I incorporate what I believe to be true, through subjective experience.

But the scientific method does help me a lot in providing an understanding. In my universe everything is a work in progress. The search for truth (my truth) or my understanding of what I consider to be true is experienced subjectively. It works for me, until I expand my horizons (conciousness) and discover NEW THINGS! This sometimes alters my perception of what I understood as true before.

I discovered a website called wespenre.com. I think you might find it very interesting. Mr. Penre states in his opening monolgue that he is a researcher, ( like many of us), and that this is his journey. He asks people to come on this journey to see what he has discovered. The various levels of learning as he calls his papers are vast. I do not necessarily agree with all that he says, but it is his journey of discovery and understand.

What stands out in his writings is his research on the reptillian species the creators gods which created us. The holographic universe, according to Penre is the 4% univiverse in which we exist, it other words a limited grid of existance controlled by the lizies. The other 96% universe,( the void) is what we aspire to enter and unite with Source.
I suspect that the 4%/96% universe is most likely a metaphore within ourselves. It may refer to our 2 strands of DNA (4% universe), and what has been referred to as "junk DNA" (the 96%) universe. This is the part of us which needs to be awakened before we shatter the control matrix, as I understand it.

This is so much fun! The journeys we travel to understand ourselves and make sense of things are absolutely wonderful. I am still on the journey, at least while I inhabit this body. Something tells me even after I leave this body ( I will probably understand a lot more), but still on a journey.

[observer]

Some minor modifications have been made to the OP (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=647771&viewfull=1#post647771) of this thread.

Some of the Holographic Workshop Videos were removed. Please read the qualifying caveat under where those videos were removed. (That notation has been in the OP since this thread was started.)

A new video has been added to further give understanding to the physics lab experiment that has provoked the development of what is being referred to in quantum physics as "The Holographic Universe Model".

I repost this new video, to readdress some of the issues brought-up in this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xKUass7G8w

Please read the quote that can be found under the video in YouTube:

"So, what is the message of the quantum? I suggest we look at the situation from a new angle. We have learned in the history of physics that it is important not to make distinctions that have no basis -- such as the pre-Newtonian distinction between the laws on Earth and those that govern the motion of heavenly bodies. I suggest that in a similar way, the distinction between reality and our knowledge of reality, between reality and information, cannot be made. There is no way to refer to reality without using the information we have about it." ~Anton Zeilinger, inventor of quantum teleportation.

In reference to the current contention that the equipment components used in either the 'Eraser Experiment', or the 'Quantum Entanglement Experiment' are what is collapsing the wave-form, and therefore are interfering with the experiment, I would suggest any act of measurement, including all of the physical parts of the measuring device represents an "act of observation".

Observation, is what has been shown to collapse the wave-form into particles - regardless if it is a measurement using barium borate crystals (BBO), or a human brain. It continues to remain, the act of observation collapses the wave-form into a particle-form.

There has been much contention, here within this thread, as to whether the physics lab data is being correctly interpreted. One can find reams of documents on the internet that purport to point at different conclusions. The Holographic Universe Model is just one of the conclusions coming out of the "Double-Slit" experiment. To be a legitimate debunker of any conclusion, one must first of all apprise one's self of the details of that conclusion one finds objectionable. I simply ask those wishing to debunk the Holographic Universe Model to investigate the Model before making derailing statements within this thread.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Observer , a question if i may ( un loaded of course )

What is it that changes the particle when it is Observed ? what is the chemical or mental reaction when this happens to change it from nothing into being ? ( if i understand it correctly )

If i am correct in assuming i in any experiment is the inclusion of " intent " which is the observation. So would this be " subjective " changes made by intentt whilst observing ? would that lend to the theory that its outcome , in this instance , is largely subjective ? Or would two different people observing the same experiment create two different observations dependant on the individuals own intents and or observations ? Or do the coupled intents of the two make up a hybrid outcome seeing that their intent and observation was combined ?

Now getting away from the "facts" id like to describe what i saw when i Observed this machine , if you think its of any use to the thread. Let me know either way. I am genuinely interested in this subject matter and i have a lot to contribute with regard to experiments i have done to try to prove it to myself. My experiments are largely science fiction based in that they are not limited by anything. Science fiction after all is a pre cursor to science fact ( thank you princes armadala appearing in the movie Thor posing as a scientist )


Naniu

[Hervé]

[...]

The purpose of this thread is to discover provable facts, objective facts, that will demonstrate this Quantum Field/Astral Plane is being cleverly manipulated.

[...]

How each individual interprets this commonality is purely a personal experience, and to be avoided as evidence in this investigation.


Allow us to move-on into this investigation, even though there may be those who contend the science behind the Holographic Universe Model is flawed. This assertion is simply not accurate. All one need do is spend some time researching the Holographic Universe Model, and one will quickly realize there are some brilliant minds (in all of the sciences, and in all aspects of life) subscribing to this concept.


...

:confused: :confused: :confused:


How can something built upon a flawed premise, to start with, not be flawed?




All one need do is spend some time researching the Holographic Universe Model, and one will quickly realize there are some brilliant minds (in all of the sciences, and in all aspects of life) subscribing to this concept.A subscription to a hypothesis finds itself at the opposite end of "provable fact," i.e. entirely subjective. This according to your own guideline:


How each individual interprets this commonality is purely a personal experience, and to be avoided as evidence in this investigation.

Hence, I would suggest dropping a controversial and flawed premise in favor of a more suitable one since, IMO, it is not the objective, physical reality of this universe that's being manipulated but the way the human mind is perceiving it.

As I noted previously (see post # 122 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=650490&viewfull=1#post650490)), in order for the human mind to perceive the objective reality of this universe the way it actually is; said human mind needs to be free from all types of hypnotic trances.

But, even then, the scientific method runs into a big stumbling block:


There is a fundamental problem in the scientific method that's been expounded by Carmody and that is: the repeatability of an exact same result under identical conditions.

The crux of scientific experiments on psychic phenomena reside on "identical conditions" since said conditions of the experiments involve duplicating the exact, identical mindsets around the experiment: THOUGHTS HAVE TO BE THE IDENTICAL SAME!

If the experimenter has counter-thoughts to the results obtained by the experimentee, after a few attempts the experimentee/subject of investigation is gona end up subconsciously saying something like: "To hell with it!"

In other words, the influence of the observer onto the observed.

Hence... mind control... :decision:

[observer]

This comment is in response to everything Amzer Zo has posted to date.


Click-on the forwarding icon to see the content of Amzer Zo's comment #122.

I would suggest, Amzer, you haven't quite pealed-back your own personal "hypnotic trance" all the way, as yet. I have at least gotten you to stipulate to the fact that there is, here within this particular reality, an obvious and provable 'control mechanism' at work.

I was personally able to "break the spell" myself, when I came to the realization that, "everything we think we understand is a small part of a much bigger lie". Now.... I suppose I will have to tie-up pages of this thread with reams of documentation to prove to the members the validity of what I just said....

I am not willing to stipulate to the fact that it doesn't matter if we are comparing photons or electrons. Throwing everything at the single slit, from electrons to buckyballs, does produce a particle-form pattern under all the circumstances I've seen so far - except in the video series you presented. In your "Primer Field Videos", I didn't see the part where they spoke of electrons. The whole series is written around observations of photons. In fact, if I understood it correctly, the conclusion regarding the single-slit experiment revealed a wave form pattern with photons as well.

Now.... I grant the fact that photons may behave much like electrons, but I believe every member will agree they are not exactly the same thing. Does your Primer Field theory address the fact that when these photons, described as combined electromagnetic wave forms, are observed in a double-slit experiment, that they convert to a particle-form display on the screen? I missed that if it does. The members would appreciate it if you would point-out specifically where in the series that occurs.

In both of the videos I have provided, it was the work involving electrons that form the foundational evidence to the Holographic Universe Model. It is from that model we are able to see a Control Mechanism. Do we all not share a commonality when it comes to the perception of elemental structure? How then, do we justify that commonality, if not some sort of Control Mechanism from outside of the Hologram?

With regard to the science of "chemistry" that you made reference to, isn't the study of chemical reactions simply the observation of elemental structure? And, isn't it the hypothesis of the Holographic Universe Model, that all matter (elemental structure) is a wave-form, until it is observed? So what does your "chemistry" example prove?

In my opinion, no one has adequately demonstrated how their argument with this debate cancels-out the effect of observation. It is the observation component of the experiment that changes the result of the experiment..... and, it is that specific component that forms the basis of The Holographic Universe Model.

I would submit that far greater minds have come to the Holographic Universe Model than are represented within this thread. One must first of all understand the Holographic Universe Model, and then one must subscribe to that Model.

Condensing one's belief system to the limits of this particular reality simply is not supported by the evidence. "Something" is, and has always been, controlling this particular reality. The evidence for this would be supported by observable social agenda continuing over hundreds of years of time - even thousands of years. There simply is no way individual human brains can continue social agenda over periods of these durations, from one human brain to the next, without some sort of external influence.

Can the members see this point?

Now.... I do hope we can proceed with the task of showing there is conclusive physical evidence (objective) that can demonstrate how this control mechanism comes from an hyperdimensional realm without any continuing disruption to the flow of information.

[Hervé]

[...]

I would suggest, Amzer, you haven't quite pealed-back your own personal "hypnotic trance" all the way, as yet. I have at least gotten you to stipulate to the fact that there is, here within this particular reality, an obvious and provable 'control mechanism' at work.

I was personally able to "break the spell" myself, when I came to the realization that, "everything we think we understand is a small part of a much bigger lie". Now.... I suppose I will have to tie-up pages of this thread with reams of documentation to prove to the members the validity of what I just said....

I am not willing to stipulate to the fact that it doesn't matter if we are comparing photons or electrons. Throwing everything at the single slit, from electrons to buckyballs, does produce a particle-form pattern under all the circumstances I've seen so far - except in the video series you presented. In your "Primer Field Videos", I didn't see the part where they spoke of electrons. The whole series is written around observations of photons. In fact, if I understood it correctly, the conclusion regarding the single-slit experiment revealed a wave form pattern with photons as well.

[...]


I would suggest, Amzer, you haven't quite pealed-back your own personal "hypnotic trance" all the way, as yet. Already resorting to ad hominem, Observer...

Disagreeing with your hypothesis and conclusion does not imply anything about my state of clarity from hypnotic trances. However, your not addressing the points submitted to you by both Paul and I, is a strong indication that the accuser may be suffering from the effect implied by his own accusation.


I have at least gotten you to stipulate to the fact that there is, here within this particular reality, an obvious and provable 'control mechanism' at work. My stipulation about this particular reality has nothing to do with you nor even PA forum since my discovery of such predates either by a long shot.


Now.... I suppose I will have to tie-up pages of this thread with reams of documentation to prove to the members the validity of what I just said....That would be a good start since none of your so-called "objectivity" has ever been submitted and which, BTW, always end up to a subjective source of past witnesses ever since your interference on the Horus-Ra thread. Otherwise, we are going to end up with something similar to the "Tap on, Tap off" thread where nothing is being demonstrated.


With regard to the science of "chemistry" that you made reference to, isn't the study of chemical reactions simply the observation of elemental structure? And, isn't it the hypothesis of the Holographic Universe Model, that all matter (elemental structure) is a wave-form, until it is observed? So what does your "chemistry" example prove?
The chemistry example as I stated it in response to your claim:
Applying Quantum Theory To Understanding This Particular Reality


FOUNDATIONAL UNDERSTANDING:

In the world of quantum physics, matter does not exist unless it is being observed.

... This fact of quantum physics has been shown to be a reproducible phenomenon in countless variations of a physics experiment known as The Double-Slit Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment), or Young's Interference Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment).

This Double-Slit Experiment has been re-tested in numerous physics labs all over the planet, always with the same results - objective results. The conclusions of this experiment are, just as previously stated, "matter does not exist unless it is being observed".

That is, if matter does not exist unless "observed," why would chemical reactions occur whether observed or not.

Also, the above quote clearly states the premise from which you build the rest of your argument and, therefore, can't help but be flawed.

Here, again, is the crux of the matter that deconstructs the rest of you post:


And, isn't it the hypothesis of the Holographic Universe Model, that all matter (elemental structure) is a wave-form, until it is observed?If you admit to a basic model for all particles (which is what the "Primer fields" videos demonstrate) but keep ignoring my input that matter or "solid" particle is no more than a condensation of energy, that is, a "frozen" energy with a particular wavelength/frequency... there are no arguments but only "un dialogue de sourds" to re-use a phrase I already used in the Horus-Ra thread.

Moreover, that basic model would also have to include "photons" as the energy wave form release or absorbed by electrons when changing energy levels whereby insisting on a difference between the two becomes a moot point.


I am not willing to stipulate to the fact that it doesn't matter if we are comparing photons or electrons. Throwing everything at the single slit, from electrons to buckyballs, does produce a particle-form pattern under all the circumstances I've seen so farWhich also means that all these "particles" also behave like photons do... when they are interfered with and "de-condense."

Here is where the slight of hand or switcheroo occurs:


Observation, is what has been shown to collapse the wave-form into particles - regardless if it is a measurement using barium borate crystals (BBO), or a human brain. It continues to remain, the act of observation collapses the wave-form into a particle-form. True observation would not interfere with the object observed. If the observation interferes with the object, then what is observed is an interfered-with-object, not the object itself.

[greybeard]

Dear Observer
A Course in Miracles (work book) also says that everything you think and see is not true. (The Hindus call this Maya)
One lesson is "I want to see things as they are"
One statement in the course says "Know that when you take up a position you are identifying with an illusion"
The whole course is about correcting the error in thought that we ever left Home/separated from Creator?God any name you choose to use (Singularity)
Duality---error in perception is brought about by the human ego which is separation device.
The course is about removing this restriction called ego so that we can see, experience life as it rally is.
Dr Eben the neuro surgeon, who, before he had his NDE, did not believe consciousness existed after death, that it was a mind function changed his thoughts on this and called the ego a limiter.
He came to the conclusion that the ego has to be overcome/transcended/tamed for us to move forward as a caring compassionate human race.
There is a book called A Conscious universe which explains a lot.
I do not have the knowledge to debate the science and theories discussed here but my simple explanation is that the ego (excessive) is the controlling factor.
However though this may appear off topic it is just another way of looking at the current human condition which up till now has been, mainly, somewhat self serving and lacking in the finer qualities which are inherent in human beings.

Chris

[araucaria]

But, even then, the scientific method runs into a big stumbling block:


There is a fundamental problem in the scientific method that's been expounded by Carmody and that is: the repeatability of an exact same result under identical conditions.

The crux of scientific experiments on psychic phenomena reside on "identical conditions" since said conditions of the experiments involve duplicating the exact, identical mindsets around the experiment: THOUGHTS HAVE TO BE THE IDENTICAL SAME!

If the experimenter has counter-thoughts to the results obtained by the experimentee, after a few attempts the experimentee/subject of investigation is gona end up subconsciously saying something like: "To hell with it!"

In other words, the influence of the observer onto the observed.

Hence... mind control... :decision:




An alternative definition of madness comes to mind: conducting the same experiment over and over again and expecting the result to be... the same :)

[Finefeather]

David Sereda : Theoretical Physics & Spiritual Wisdom
David Sereda Coast to Coast Published on 3 Mar 2013

Hi Chris
Got through the David Sereda talk with mixed feelings...and there is no way of verifying his maths and claims. I did get some ideas out of it which might be helpful in this thread.

The most significant disappointment to me is that not once did he mention thought in his talk, and the fact that thought creates everything. There is not one thing which exists...in any dimension...which is not created by thought. In the 3D physical world thought is reduced to some action or 'solid' object...but in every case it starts off as a thought. Thought is the fundamental building block of existence.

My view on the singularity is, that it is a state which can only truly be reached when nothing exist...because existence depends entirely on some objectivity.
Objectivity is also misunderstood because we thing that it is only possible in the 3D physical realm.
Our normal senses apply only up to the level at which we can determine some event, or object, and when. for example, we see a cloud disappear before our eyes, we think that there is nothing left.
It is only the degree of our awareness, starting with our 5 senses, which determines objectivity.
Clairvoyance, for example adds a 6th sense and to these people, objectivity is further enhanced...there are many higher states of objectivity...the word 'objective' the way we use it has been restricted to our narrow limitations.

The disappearance of a quantum particle...or any object...from the objective world...we know...only means it has left our field of awareness...it does not mean it no longer exists. Then the next important thing we should keep in mind, is that the equipment we use to test and prove science, in laboratories, is only that which has been designed and constructed by the very people who are giving us the answers...how do they know there is not more to it than meets their objectivity?

Overcoming duality does not mean entering or reaching a state of singularity...it means recognising the cause of our conflict and ceasing to treat it as a threat. We see that if there is an up then there must be a down...we see that were there is light there must be darkness...because without darkness there could be no light. The vision which is reached...is the whole...which is different from the singular. There is no consciousness in singularity...consciousness is born out of duality. David Sereda's idea of knowing ever thing in a state of singularity therefore makes no sense to me...including his idea of knowing all future events from this state.


Just a though here for consideration:
The current general human state of awareness is almost entirely reliant on the 5 senses. We see that there are more and more humans becoming more and more aware of other states, beyond our normal senses. These states are the ones which will lead us into the new awareness. This is what evolution is about...becoming more conscious of our surrounding...and thus opening our eyes to our current state of blindness.
Just as was done in the past when we came to conclusions which today we laugh about, so too will we in another 1000 years time laugh at what we thought was real today. This does not mean that everything we know today is wrong...it only means that we don't yet have the full picture.

So trying to come to conclusions about something we know little about is a sure way of causing conflict in our lives...because the objectivity of one is not the same as another. Generally speaking scientists are known to be objective...but their objectivity is based on proving something with proven means of verification...which they themselves have no way of comparing to what the real facts might be. This has been known to many famous scientist, like Einstein, who realised the importance which spiritual knowledge plays in the progress of science. To the unyielding objectivist life is about 'you get what you see' and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that way of thinking...but it is the free spirit thinkers, the new breed of awakening humans, who will lead us to better thinking and better ideas and better answers.

Take care
Ray

[heyokah]

[....]

---error in perception is brought about by the human ego .....

Dear Chris,
Yes, this might be partially true.
However mind control and conditioning through upbringing and the education system might be another reason we are identifying with this wonderfully detailed holographic illusion . How and why did we get there?

Now that's exactly the question of this thread: What controls the hologram?.......



[...]

That would be a good start since none of your so-called "objectivity" has ever been submitted and which, BTW, always end up to a subjective source of past witnesses ever since your interference on the Horus-Ra thread. Otherwise, we are going to end up with something similar to the "Tap on, Tap off" thread where nothing is being demonstrated.

And let's beware not to end up in word-picking and ego-games unworthy of this forum.

So again, let's concentrate on the question What controls the hologram?

[greybeard]

[QUOTE=greybeard;651499]
[....]

---error in perception is brought about by the human ego .....

Dear Chris,
Yes, this might be partially true.
However mind control and conditioning through upbringing and the education system might be another reason we are identifying with this wonderfully detailed holographic illusion . How and why did we get there?

Now that's exactly the question of this thread: What controls the hologram?.......

End quote

Chris said

"Accepting that control comes through culture conditioning the works.
Spiritual teaching points out that the ego is the mechanism through which this conditioning control comes about.
It also points out that this conditioning can be overcome--- perhaps the scientific would cll this deprogramming.
The language is different but the end result is the same --freedom.
We are not helpless, we can over ride the control.
I accept that Operator has put a lot of thought, knowledge, wisdom into this and applaud him for this thread.
Our way and understanding might be different Observer but we look for the same result, Freedom.

One of my teachers the late Dr David Hawkins was very clear that we are programmed, manipulated through the mass media---gangster rap etc by the lower astral. The words used in the music is not that important but the frequencies used is---the music is only the carrier of this.
He basically said "Don’t go there" The wolf in sheep's clothing etc."

Chris

[Finefeather]

So again, let's concentrate on the question What controls the hologram?
Well I have been racking my brain to come up with an answer...but I always seem to end up in the objective/subjective trap which observer set for us.
We have spent 8 pages...and I think we have concluded that the quantum double slit experiment is really of no importance when it comes to who or what controls the hologram.
I am also not sure if we have actually determined that what we live in is in fact a hologram...in accordance with objective scientific understanding of a hologram.

I think it is time for you observer to step in and offer some of your objective evidence...which has lead you to come to your conclusion.
Ray

[Hervé]

[...]


[...]

That would be a good start since none of your so-called "objectivity" has ever been submitted and which, BTW, always end up to a subjective source of past witnesses ever since your interference on the Horus-Ra thread. Otherwise, we are going to end up with something similar to the "Tap on, Tap off" thread where nothing is being demonstrated.

And let's beware not to end up in word-picking and ego-games unworthy of this forum.

So again, let's concentrate on the question What controls the hologram?

That presupposes there is a hologram to be controlled which is the point of contention: is it a hologram that's being manipulated or the perception of whatever it is that's around; e.g. "The Third Man In The Room"?

UFOs are one of the best example for such things when in a group of people some see something while others don't. Whose perception is being manipulated? The ones that see something or the ones that don't? This led a number of researchers of the UFO phenomena to conclude said UFOs phenomena to be at the boundary with psychic phenomena like Jacques Vallee.

This to me leads to the the fundamental questions phrased differently by Chris or WF:


If you read the posts in the thread Bill linked to, it appears that most of the "reasons" deduced from the physical universe do not hold much water.. that is, they are decoys and obfuscating the actual reason or source of what sensitives are perceiving.

My questions, then, are:

Who or what is doing the perceiving?

What exactly is being perceived?

Where exactly is it perceived to be coming from?

Because, between the telepathic wars amongst the different human and ET factions, the AI interferences by same from satellites and people's "angels" and "demons" as well as "hitchhikers/inserts," the field is pretty much muddied out.

[Finefeather]

Hey Amzer
I just noticed this line in your signature...

“There is a condition worse than blindness, and that is, seeing something that isn't there.”

At first I did not see it...maybe I was blind for just a moment...yet it was there to see all the time...now I glance at it...it reminds me of when I was blind...I am happy to see again.

[heyokah]

[...]
I am also not sure if we have actually determined that what we live in is in fact a hologram...in accordance with objective scientific understanding of a hologram.


Dear Ray,
Reading this confession of yours makes me believe you haven't taken the time to watch the 1 hour 22 min. video observer offered in his OP (post 1). Perhaps you stopped after the 5 minutes dealing with the double slit experiment?

I advice you to watch the video right up till the end so your question will be answered. You will be surprised. It's worth watching.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMBt_yfGKpU

Then, if you have the power, watch the 1 hour 26 min video "The Holographic Universe (Thinking Allowed)" of Michael Talbot, which observer offered in his OP as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-r3pW-G5BI

If you think the video a bit too long, you can watch this version I posted earlier in this thread (post 94) and watch the other one later.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rgYz_BU2Ew

Hope this will be of some help, perhaps to some other members posting in this thread as well :)

[Finefeather]

[...]
I am also not sure if we have actually determined that what we live in is in fact a hologram...in accordance with objective scientific understanding of a hologram.

Dear Ray,
Reading this confession of yours makes me believe you haven't taken the time to watch the 1 hour 22 min. video observer offered in his OP (post 1). Perhaps you stopped after the 5 minutes dealing with the double slit experiment?

I advice you to watch the video right up till the end so your question will be answered. You will be surprised. It's worth watching.

Hi heyokah
I must say that my statement was not really a confession at all...in fact if you had read a previous post of mine, I said I had watched all the videos...and then some more! I was merely been courteous because I was not sure that everyone had come to the same conclusion as I did.,,let me explain better.

It is my opinion that Stephen Davis, creator of the video series, had already come to a conclusion before he even presented the facts to his audience...and uses cleverly contrived methods to herd the audience into believing his conclusions are correct...a subtle technique not unlike mind control...the question is...What did these highly respected scientists actually say. Did you take note of exactly what each one said?

First of all Stephen Davis makes this statement:
“Many highly respected quantum physicists are telling us, based on the latest research that we are living in a hologram....which is not real.....and is an illusion.”

Here is just a quick flit through the respected scientists he uses to prove his theory...I have not used their full statements...just the words we should take note of...you can refresh your memory by watching the video again.

1. Michael Ledwoth: resembles a hologram picture.
2. David Bohm: believes that despite it's apparent solidity, the universe is at heart a phantasm – a giant and splendidly detailed hologram.
3. Dr J Bekenstein: An astonishing theory called the holographic principle holds that the universe is like a hologram...the principle might be true.
4. Brian Greene: ….a kind of hologram...maybe...
5. Leonard Susskind: is the 3D world an illusion in the same sense as a hologram is – perhaps – yes..I am inclined to think yes...in a certain peculiar sense, the world is a hologram...wild idea...represented as a hologram.
6. German Scientists...found a particular sound...one possibility is that the entire universe is a holographic illusion.
7. Craig Hogan: -we are living in a giant hologram....this he says is an idea...

Then he uses 2 movies to make the audience feel more comfortable with his idea...
And finally he makes this bold conclusion.
“Conclusion to Part 1
Quantum physic is very clear...what we call “reality” is actually a holographic picture that only looks and feels real to us inside it.”

There is NOT ONE of his respected scientists that have actually said the world is a hologram...end of search...conclusive fact...each one is subjectively giving his opinion....which make every scientist's testimony or statement, presented...null and void...according to the objective rules of the OP of this thread.

Let me just conclude by giving a few brief statements on my understanding of this claim and where, in some way, the claim is correct, but NOT in the way the OP or the respected scientists think. Now I might just add that this is my own personal experienced objectivity...which is not acceptable for use in this thread...it is also the exact same as many other esoteric writings...so handle it in the way you feel is best...this is no claim.

The fact that everything is just a vibration has been known since the dawn of time...only now are our scientists beginning to come close to the truth...well done to them. I would say thank you to those scientist who appeared on this video...despite the incorrect claims by Stephen Davis, creator of the video series, who in my opinion has jumped the gun. I do however feel that his intention is noble and if you continue with his workshop to the end he has set an important seed into motion albeit a little imaginative right now...in time he will want to re address some of his ideas.

The illusion which we read about in esoteric writings is actually referring to the fact that we are not the body and that the real Spiritual Man is separate from the 3D body and actually lives in, and originates from, a much finer state of vibration. The part of the human being which we are familiar with, which we might call the personality, is in fact a composite of a physical creation and a higher state of intelligence, which uses it for it's own purpose. The thing that few understand is that we as Spiritual Beings have been through an entire cycle or journey in various forms...starting in the world of gross matter and working our way up the order into the plant kingdom and the animal kingdom. We have now arrived in the final stage of physical 3D manifestation...we are young and we have a way to go yet to realise that we are in fact part of a far greater intelligence and Being than we could imagine. Our current and general thinking is still that we are separate and must fight for our survival, like we did in the animal kingdom...this is the cause of the state of the world in all it's many evils and beauty. We are now heading down the home stretch were realisation is fast taking place...we have those who have been through this entire journey, before, coming in their droves to lead us on to the final goal...which will return us...with all the knowledge and wisdom we have gained along the way...back to our source....the one who never left us in the first place...it is only our blindness which has caused our pain and our despair...it is our awakening which will cause peace and love to return.

Just a short word on the hologram. What we see around us...the stage of our life which has been around since the beginning of time is a creation of highly intelligent and advanced beings who's sole task is to create and manifest the physical universe. They are known in the realms as the Lords of Flame. What we as intelligent beings have done along our long journey...is change it...improved it in many cases...abused it often. Just as our bodies are born out of a seed of quantum potential so is every planet and galaxy born and formed with the help of the great builders...they are the 3rd aspect in the trinity...called the Holy Ghost by Christians and called The Lords of Active Intelligence in esoteric writings.

The fact of some of us being controlled by others is simply the evidence of the ignorant and arrogant and 'evil' state of the minds of those doing the controlling...and the lack of spiritual understanding and awareness and willingness to be what we are, of those who allow themselves to be controlled.

Take care and love to all
Ray

[heyokah]

OK Ray, this first video I put up was for you perhaps the wrong one, reading your negative ideas about Stephen Davis' intentions .....
But he's not the only one writing about the holographic universe. Read the work of David Bohm or Michael Talbot for instance.

Maybe I should have put up the Micheal Talbot video first.


It is my opinion that Stephen Davis, creator of the video series, had already come to a conclusion before he even presented the facts to his audience...and uses cleverly contrived methods to herd the audience into believing his conclusions are correct...

Isn't this common for people who want to show what they believe is true (or could be true), from the world of physicists to the world of esoteric masters?



What did these highly respected scientists actually say.....

{....}

1. Michael Ledwoth: resembles a hologram picture.
2. David Bohm: believes that despite it's apparent solidity, the universe is at heart a phantasm – a giant and splendidly detailed hologram.
3. Dr J Bekenstein: An astonishing theory called the holographic principle holds that the universe is like a hologram...the principle might be true.
4. Brian Greene: ….a kind of hologram...maybe...
5. Leonard Susskind: is the 3D world an illusion in the same sense as a hologram is – perhaps – yes..I am inclined to think yes...in a certain peculiar sense, the world is a hologram...wild idea...represented as a hologram.
6. German Scientists...found a particular sound...one possibility is that the entire universe is a holographic illusion.
7. Craig Hogan: -we are living in a giant hologram....this he says is an idea....

{....}

There is NOT ONE of this respected scientists that have actually said the world is a hologram...end of search...conclusive fact...each one is subjectively giving his opinion....which make every scientist's testimony or statement, presented...null and void.......


That's how it goes with official statements about revolutionary theories ........

An adjusted quote I posted before, post 110 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram/page6),

"the physicists, do NOT say it––or if they do say it, they only whisper it, and in private––furiously blushing as they mouth the words. True, yes; politically correct, hell no!”


Love to all.

Yoka - shamanistic yogini with pagan tendencies :)


****

ADD


I'm not good at writing lengthy posts because I'm not a native speaker, nor a good writer.
So my posts will not show an appropriate style nor is my intended meaning expressed very eloquently.

But I comfort myself with J.W. Von Goethe's quote:

"in der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister"

[Delight]

[...]
I am also not sure if we have actually determined that what we live in is in fact a hologram...in accordance with objective scientific understanding of a hologram.

Dear Ray,
Reading this confession of yours makes me believe you haven't taken the time to watch the 1 hour 22 min. video observer offered in his OP (post 1). Perhaps you stopped after the 5 minutes dealing with the double slit experiment?

I advice you to watch the video right up till the end so your question will be answered. You will be surprised. It's worth watching.

Hi heyokah
I must say that my statement was not really a confession at all...in fact if you had read a previous post of mine, I said I had watched all the videos...and then some more! I was merely been courteous because I was not sure that everyone had come to the same conclusion as I did.,,let me explain better.

It is my opinion that Stephen Davis, creator of the video series, had already come to a conclusion before he even presented the facts to his audience...and uses cleverly contrived methods to herd the audience into believing his conclusions are correct...a subtle technique not unlike mind control...the question is...What did these highly respected scientists actually say. Did you take note of exactly what each one said?

First of all Stephen Davis makes this statement:
“Many highly respected quantum physicists are telling us, based on the latest research that we are living in a hologram....which is not real.....and is an illusion.”

Here is just a quick flit through the respected scientists he uses to prove his theory...I have not used their full statements...just the words we should take note of...you can refresh your memory by watching the video again.

1. Michael Ledwoth: resembles a hologram picture.
2. David Bohm: believes that despite it's apparent solidity, the universe is at heart a phantasm – a giant and splendidly detailed hologram.
3. Dr J Bekenstein: An astonishing theory called the holographic principle holds that the universe is like a hologram...the principle might be true.
4. Brian Greene: ….a kind of hologram...maybe...
5. Leonard Susskind: is the 3D world an illusion in the same sense as a hologram is – perhaps – yes..I am inclined to think yes...in a certain peculiar sense, the world is a hologram...wild idea...represented as a hologram.
6. German Scientists...found a particular sound...one possibility is that the entire universe is a holographic illusion.
7. Craig Hogan: -we are living in a giant hologram....this he says is an idea...

Then he uses 2 movies to make the audience feel more comfortable with his idea...
And finally he makes this bold conclusion.
“Conclusion to Part 1
Quantum physic is very clear...what we call “reality” is actually a holographic picture that only looks and feels real to us inside it.”

There is NOT ONE of his respected scientists that have actually said the world is a hologram...end of search...conclusive fact...each one is subjectively giving his opinion....which make every scientist's testimony or statement, presented...null and void...according to the objective rules of the OP of this thread.

Let me just conclude by giving a few brief statements on my understanding of this claim and where, in some way, the claim is correct, but NOT in the way the OP or the respected scientists think. Now I might just add that this is my own personal experienced objectivity...which is not acceptable for use in this thread...it is also the exact same as many other esoteric writings...so handle it in the way you feel is best...this is no claim.

The fact that everything is just a vibration has been known since the dawn of time...only now are our scientists beginning to come close to the truth...well done to them. I would say thank you to those scientist who appeared on this video...despite the incorrect claims by Stephen Davis, creator of the video series, who in my opinion has jumped the gun. I do however feel that his intention is noble and if you continue with his workshop to the end he has set an important seed into motion albeit a little imaginative right now...in time he will want to re address some of his ideas.

The illusion which we read about in esoteric writings is actually referring to the fact that we are not the body and that the real Spiritual Man is separate from the 3D body and actually lives in, and originates from, a much finer state of vibration. The part of the human being which we are familiar with, which we might call the personality, is in fact a composite of a physical creation and a higher state of intelligence, which uses it for it's own purpose. The thing that few understand is that we as Spiritual Beings have been through an entire cycle or journey in various forms...starting in the world of gross matter and working our way up the order into the plant kingdom and the animal kingdom. We have now arrived in the final stage of physical 3D manifestation...we are young and we have a way to go yet to realise that we are in fact part of a far greater intelligence and Being than we could imagine. Our current and general thinking is still that we are separate and must fight for our survival, like we did in the animal kingdom...this is the cause of the state of the world in all it's many evils and beauty. We are now heading down the home stretch were realisation is fast taking place...we have those who have been through this entire journey, before, coming in their droves to lead us on to the final goal...which will return us...with all the knowledge and wisdom we have gained along the way...back to our source....the one who never left us in the first place...it is only our blindness which has caused our pain and our despair...it is our awakening which will cause peace and love to return.

Just a short word on the hologram. What we see around us...the stage of our life which has been around since the beginning of time is a creation of highly intelligent and advanced beings who's sole task is to create and manifest the physical universe. They are known in the realms as the Lords of Flame. What we as intelligent beings have done along our long journey...is change it...improved it in many cases...abused it often. Just as our bodies are born out of a seed of quantum potential so is every planet and galaxy born and formed with the help of the great builders...they are the 3rd aspect in the trinity...called the Holy Ghost by Christians and called The Lords of Active Intelligence in esoteric writings.

The fact of some of us being controlled by others is simply the evidence of the ignorant and arrogant and 'evil' state of the minds of those doing the controlling...and the lack of spiritual understanding and awareness and willingness to be what we are, of those who allow themselves to be controlled.

Take care and love to all
Ray

I am pretty sure that this is a hologram and we are in a science project. Here is an interesting statement about the "imbalance" that is unreal to creates the illusion we necessary for an experience.


If the universe is all that is and there is nothing outside per say, then all movement is contained within. If all movement is contained within, and all movement has an equal and opposite reaction than the sum of all energies always equals zero. if you were floating in the dark of space, and all you had was a medicine ball. You could flail, and gyrate, and move, but you would never get anywhere. You would supposedly create lots of movement, but the sum of it would always be a net of zero. You might even think to throw the ball, now it will head off in one direction with a quanta of energy, and you the other direction with a quanta of energy, both equal and opposite, so both add to zero. This shows that energy really can never be gained nor lost, but simulated. This means that from rest all things come and to rest all things return, and that mathematically the sum all all is nothing. http://www.energeticforum.com/80511-post32.html

So, maybe the hologram is controlled by the Supreme Imbalance (Chaos) and that is a good and precious gift.......

I used to worry about "Someone or something" controlling me. I had no trust in anything. I was terrified and contracted. I believe the "physics" of this state is what feels like victimization.

Now I feel totally different. My intention is to experience a cooperation with Creator. I still don't understand much at all but I feel very confident about the potential I have to be a working partner in "whatever" this life really is about. And because I feel this way, my life is changing.

This is in part because I have started living uncomfortably by not going along with the "collective" idea of what I am to be accomplishing. I EXPECT that by taking the stand to be illumined, I am illumined more and more.

Walter Russell may be beyond my mental capacity but I hear something in what he writes that feels absolutely TRUE... not "illusion". We are meant to express newness and refreshment out of the illusion. Then we have contributed to the whole. http://www.alexpetty.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Figure-3.-Chart-tracing-source-of-mans-supposedly-many-substrances-back-to-the-one.png



I have been comparing the work to Russell.... It resonates as something kindred.


Check out

http://www.scribd.com/doc/118557131/Alchemical-Manual-Volume-1-and-Volume-2-by-Aaity-Olson

Also this is really fascinating to me because it looks like Russellian pictures..

9EPlyiW-xGI

I now see trust as a choice we have to give to "the greater" Self out of the repetitive arrangement of matrix. Trust in our "Selves" as god sounds almost religious but is not... the truth was taken by religion etc and used against us. Cooperation in love and willingness to change are impossible without trust in a larger state... At least for me. Maggie

[Finefeather]

OK Ray, this first video I put up was for you perhaps the wrong one, reading your negative ideas about Stephen Davis' intentions .....
But he's not the only one writing about the holographic universe. Read the work of David Bohm or Michael Talbot for instance.
Maybe I should have put up the Micheal Talbot video first.

Hi heyokah
Thank you for your critique and reply.
I have watched Michael Talbot as well...so I don't think I am missing anything which would change my thinking...thanks for your efforts to enlighten me.

At no time should you get the impression that I am trying to debunk the hologram concept as pure non sense...I am not...I am just saying that there is no scientific absolute proof yet of the theory in the way they are proposing it...and I think there never will be...but it does not end there.
Stephen Davis seems to think it does...and makes that statement quite clear and that is not true...so from my point of view he is assuming a phenomena, and selling this as fact...so it must be subjective.
My point is that scientists and video presenters can give subjective comment...and be used as evidence...but others cannot...why would that be so? Because there is no evidence yet.

Why can't we just see this and move on?...to where?

This is a really intense subject and I have experienced it most of my life...albeit in another way...and I know it cannot be properly described on a forum post...let along a video series. We are talking about the very essence of life here...humans are far away from being able to understand the real mechanics...we just don't have the brain capacity yet.

Briefly...I would state that the hologram principle that is being presented is false...because a hologram is a light phenomena and life in the 3D world is primarily a matter phenomena.
In fact if you enter the higher dimensions, the higher you go the more it resembles a hologram as we know it...I have experienced this thousands of times. In these realms we are light...in the 3D world this light has been stepped down to matter...inside every particle of matter is light.
Everyone on this planet constantly creates patterns and thought forms, which I have seen many times, in the realms just out of our sensory perception.
The 'Field' or 'Unified Field' which science talks about certainly exists but it too has numerous levels of manifestation...and what they are detecting is merely the physical plane level of this phenomena...there are many more. We think we have cracked the code to the universe by getting to the point where quantum particles disappear...this is a great step for us...but life does not end there.
Quantum particles are huge in comparison to what lies in the higher dimensions. There are many many much smaller particles but we will never see them because they are out of our range.

Where this concept, of the hologram, being presented, comes close to the real deal, is the fact that objects are materialized out of the standing wave of matter which is only present in this dimension. Matter is essentially energy that has undergone focused alignment, by thought. The hologram we are discussing here is about light...you can put your hand through light but not through matter in this dimension.
When you play around in the higher planes you can walk right through walls. I have walked right through my bedroom wall many times.

If you read my last paragraphs I am clearly not negative about this advancement we are making.
I am very happy to see that science is finally realising what metaphysics has been telling them for ages. Out of this hologram theory will come the real truth and so to me this is good. I salute all forward thinking scientists who bravely force the evolution of the stuff the die hards expect us to believe. The holographic principle will lead to greater discoveries...it is however, IMO, one that will stagnate unless we scientifically prove life after death, and out of body capabilities...from this will come rapid evolution.



Isn't this common for people who want to show what they believe is true (or could be true), from the world of physicists to the world of esoteric masters?
Yes it is...unfortunately...although I have not noticed such blatant assumption from esoteric masters...do you know one who has stated an unproven fact?

Take care and much love
Ray

[gardunk]

What is that physical evidence? Perception/ perception thru technologies? You still seem to be trying to be objective with and thru subj constructs which is and endless debate and not that pertinent to me. Another stumbling block for me is your insinuation that what you term quantum physics is any less subjective. If you look at Larsens stuff or any that have shown the cracks in quantum theory I would suggest a differeny argument to get to your desired destination/ aether physics would be my suggestion...
I see I missed a few pages and this may not be relevant to where this discussion has gone but thanks to all of you for all the input/ it unveils issues that are all over the board and sadly seems to leave more questions than answers....

[gardunk]

Not to detract but I think the concept of a singularity is a problem and a thought construct by itself/ like the argument of black holes as if it all ends there and is not a fluid system that connects to a white hole and all phenomena of the aether/ guys like Hawking use the singularity to create walls around their math functions and I believe the same is true for quantum theory/

[greybeard]

This may or may not be helpful.

From a deep spiritual teaching point of view there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that in the enlightened state there is to time, no space, no linear time, therefore no sequence, everything (past present future) happened at the same eternal moment. The human mind, in order to experience, puts a seeming cause and affect and therefore sequence to everything.
The unenlightened cant get this, the mind cant, there is no reference point for it.

The enlightened state is testified to be non-locational-- where ever intention is focused that where the "experience" is.
In essence everything is of the same One. The I am is everywhere.
The "I am That" is the space in which everything including the human experience occurs.
in I am That is contained everything and I am contained in everything--there is only One self and that Self is within every stone blade of grass the sparrow the Sun the Cosmos all One entity expressing It Self in billions of ways, each way unique.

So Chris is the hologram and so is everything else--the smallest atom within me which is 99.5% empty space (Dark Matter= God) contains absolutely everything--- I can not see that I, in the essence of One, is controlled---what is separate from One without a second to control anything?

So that's my current understanding--- Im not saying Im right.

Chris

[gardunk]

So we question the noun hologram
and we question the verb control
What is in both questioning= WE :wizard:
Therefore I propose that WE control the hologram
Yet the hologram and our control only exist in our awareness....

[Finefeather]

Hi Maggie...excellent video...watching the whole series...thanks, Ray


9EPlyiW-xGI

[greybeard]

Cleve Baxter Primary perception worth looking into.
Everything is connected to everything else and at some level aware of everything else.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleve_Backster
Primary perception

His study of plants began in the 1960s, when he reported observing that a polygraph instrument attached to a plant leaf registered a change in electrical resistance when the plant was harmed or even threatened with harm. He argued that plants perceived human intentions, and as Backster began to investigate further, he also reported a finding that other human thoughts and emotions caused reactions in plants that could be recorded by a polygraph instrument. His work was in part inspired by the research of Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose,[3] who claimed to have discovered that playing certain kinds of music in the area where plants grew caused them to grow faster.

He termed the plants' sensitivity to thoughts "primary perception," and published his findings from the experiments in the International Journal of Parapsychology.[4] The article was met with wide criticism of his research methods. However Backster gained the interest of other researchers and expanded his experimental range to test for primary perceptions in other life forms such as yogurt, bacteria and human cells.

Since then Backster has presented his work at numerous scientific meetings including those of the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS), founded by astronaut Edgar Mitchell, and the Institute for Transpersonal Psychology in Palo Alto, CA.

Ingo Swann tested positive in these plant tests, and went on to help develop Remote Viewing at Stanford University with Dr Hal Puthoff.

[heyokah]

Cleve Baxter Primary perception worth looking into.
Everything is connected to everything else and at some level aware of everything else.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleve_Backster
Primary perception

His study of plants began in the 1960s, when he reported observing that a polygraph instrument attached to a plant leaf registered a change in electrical resistance when the plant was harmed or even threatened with harm. He argued that plants perceived human intentions, and as Backster began to investigate further, he also reported a finding that other human thoughts and emotions caused reactions in plants that could be recorded by a polygraph instrument. His work was in part inspired by the research of Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose,[3] who claimed to have discovered that playing certain kinds of music in the area where plants grew caused them to grow faster.

He termed the plants' sensitivity to thoughts "primary perception," and published his findings from the experiments in the International Journal of Parapsychology.[4] The article was met with wide criticism of his research methods. However Backster gained the interest of other researchers and expanded his experimental range to test for primary perceptions in other life forms such as yogurt, bacteria and human cells.

Since then Backster has presented his work at numerous scientific meetings including those of the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS), founded by astronaut Edgar Mitchell, and the Institute for Transpersonal Psychology in Palo Alto, CA.

Ingo Swann tested positive in these plant tests, and went on to help develop Remote Viewing at Stanford University with Dr Hal Puthoff.


This is a version of the classic and rare 1979 documentary.

The Secret Life of Plants



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_X2Z9v8-6Q&feature=share&list=PLR03Wazmqjc86W7wXTRd1IYjXPLQGd-nY

[observer]

Ray, I don't have much energy to deal with this tonight, but allow me to point-out just a few short comments.

In one of your earlier statements you made the observation that none of the scientists used as reference in the Holographic Universe Videos stated "absolutely", regarding the Model. Since we are discussing evidence one may find within this particular reality that might point to an hyperdimensional control mechanism, allow me to point-out that very seldom, if ever, will you find a credentialed Ph.D. scientist confirm "absolutely" with regard to any theory. However, you will rarely, if ever, find one who will apply a "possibility statement" to a theory to which he does not subscribe. So please.... let's at least get real on that one.

It would also be appreciated, by many of the members reading this thread, if those wishing only to debunk the material being discussed, would they please stop playing "word games" with the terms "objective" and "subjective". I have been more than clear several times throughout this thread, that we are speaking of "witnessing" type testimonies as being subjective. Interpretations of evidence are obviously subjective. If one wishes to interject his personal interpretation of the evidence, no one is stopping that. We welcome all objective evidence. However, if one wishes to present documents gleaned from channeled sources, or to "testify" to their own personal Astral Plane experiences, then again, I ask to refrain. There is no objective evidence to prove those kinds of testimonies are not being cleverly manipulated. Were this thread allowed to continue, without all the argumentative comments, we may actually discover some objective evidence to this fact.

In your most recent comment #153 you stated:

" Briefly...I would state that the hologram principle that is being presented is false...because a hologram is a light phenomena and life in the 3D world is primarily a matter phenomena. "

I have addressed this issue repeatedly throughout this thread. The double-slit experiment forming the basis of understanding within this thread, involves electrons, and not photons. Electrons are quanta particles of matter, photons are quanta particles of light. Within the Holographic Universe Model it is theorized that (from the double slit experiment) because electrons exist as wave-form, and only appear as particle-form when observed, "matter doesn't exist until it is being observed".

Please stop twisting the facts as they are clearly defined within this thread.

[Hervé]

Photon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the elementary particle of light. For other uses, see Photon (disambiguation) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_%28disambiguation%29).

A photon is an elementary particle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_particle), the quantum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum) of light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light) and all other forms of electromagnetic radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation), and the force carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_carrier) for the electromagnetic force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_force), even when static (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_forces_and_virtual-particle_exchange) via virtual photons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_photons). The effects of this force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force) are easily observable at both the microscopic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microscopic_scale) and macroscopic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroscopic_scale) level, because the photon has no rest mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rest_mass); this allows for interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction) at long distances. Like all elementary particles, photons are currently best explained by quantum mechanics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics) and exhibit wave–particle duality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality), exhibiting properties of both waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave) and particles (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/particle). For example, a single photon may be refracted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction) by a lens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_%28optics%29) or exhibit wave interference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_%28wave_propagation%29) with itself, but also act as a particle giving a definite result when its position (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_%28vector%29) is measured.

Wave–particle duality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality)

... While the energy of ejected electrons reflected Planck's constant, the existence of photons was not explicitly proven until the discovery of the photon antibunching (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_antibunching) effect, of which a modern experiment can be performed in undergraduate-level labs.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality#cite_note-6) This phenomenon could only be explained via photons, and not through any semi-classical theory (which could alternatively explain the photoelectric effect). When Einstein received his Nobel Prize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize) in 1921, it was not for his more difficult and mathematically laborious special (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity) and general relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity), but for the simple, yet totally revolutionary, suggestion of quantized light. Einstein's "light quanta" would not be called photons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photons) until 1925, but even in 1905 they represented the quintessential example of wave–particle duality. Electromagnetic radiation propagates following linear wave equations, but can only be emitted or absorbed as discrete elements, thus acting as a wave and a particle simultaneously.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Photon_bunching.png

Now, taking the above into consideration, it follows that anything displaying the same behaviour of wave-particle -- from electrons to buckyballs -- are necessarily obeying the same laws and are therefore built on the same blueprint/model/structure.

Thus, separating photon from electron is an arbitrary distinction since electrons are made, in part, of photons.

The blueprint/model/structure on which these "particles" of matter are built is best explained by David Lapoint's "The Primer Fields":


9EPlyiW-xGI

2NogyJ0k8Kw

lpI6ikj1G-s

[lookbeyond]

I am still interested in observers perspective on this topic and despite the delays sincerely hope he will continue as he had planned- fellow readers, shall we give some space to allow?

Kind Reguards lookbeyond

[heyokah]

Photon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Photon


This article is about the elementary particle of light. For other uses, see Photon (disambiguation) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_%28disambiguation%29).

A photon is an elementary particle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_particle), the quantum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum) of light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light) and all other forms of electromagnetic radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation), and the force carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_carrier) for the electromagnetic force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_force), even when static (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_forces_and_virtual-particle_exchange) via virtual photons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_photons). The effects of this force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force) are easily observable at both the microscopic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microscopic_scale) and macroscopic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroscopic_scale) level, because the photon has no rest mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rest_mass); this allows for interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction) at long distances. Like all elementary particles, photons are currently best explained by quantum mechanics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics) and exhibit wave–particle duality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality), exhibiting properties of both waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave) and particles (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/particle). For example, a single photon may be refracted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction) by a lens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_%28optics%29) or exhibit wave interference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_%28wave_propagation%29) with itself, but also act as a particle giving a definite result when its position (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_%28vector%29) is measured.

Wave–particle duality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality)

... While the energy of ejected electrons reflected Planck's constant, the existence of photons was not explicitly proven until the discovery of the photon antibunching (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_antibunching) effect, of which a modern experiment can be performed in undergraduate-level labs.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality#cite_note-6) This phenomenon could only be explained via photons, and not through any semi-classical theory (which could alternatively explain the photoelectric effect). When Einstein received his Nobel Prize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize) in 1921, it was not for his more difficult and mathematically laborious special (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity) and general relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity), but for the simple, yet totally revolutionary, suggestion of quantized light. Einstein's "light quanta" would not be called photons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photons) until 1925, but even in 1905 they represented the quintessential example of wave–particle duality. Electromagnetic radiation propagates following linear wave equations, but can only be emitted or absorbed as discrete elements, thus acting as a wave and a particle simultaneously.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Photon_bunching.png

Now, taking the above into consideration, it follows that anything displaying the same behaviour of wave-particle -- from electrons to buckyballs -- are necessarily obeying the same laws and are therefore built on the same blueprint/model/structure.

Thus, separating photon from electron is an arbitrary distinction since electrons are made, in part, of photons.

The blueprint/model/structure on which these "particles" of matter are built is best explained by David Lapoint's "The Primer Fields":



Dear Amzer, Also from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Photon ......
I hereby give the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon

From the chapter Wave–particle duality and uncertainty principles


Both photons and material particles such as electrons create analogous interference patterns when passing through a double-slit experiment.
For photons, this corresponds to the interference of a Maxwell light wave whereas, for material particles, this corresponds to the interference of the Schrödinger wave equation. Although this similarity might suggest that Maxwell's equations are simply Schrödinger's equation for photons, most physicists do not agree.

For one thing, they are mathematically different; most obviously, Schrödinger's one equation solves for a complex field, whereas Maxwell's four equations solve for real fields.

More generally, the normal concept of a Schrödinger probability wave function cannot be applied to photons. Being massless, they cannot be localized without being destroyed; technically, photons cannot have a position eigenstate , and, thus, the normal Heisenberg uncertainty principle does not pertain to photons.

[Hervé]

Except for light bending around massive objects creating "gravitational lensing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gravitational_lens-full.jpg)"... indicating that photons have indeed some mass...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Gravitational_lens-full.jpg




A gravitational lens refers to a distribution of matter (such as a cluster of galaxies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_cluster)) between a distant source (a background galaxy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy)) and an observer, that is capable of bending (lensing) the light from the source, as it travels towards the observer. This effect is known as gravitational lensing and is one of the predictions of Albert Einstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein)'s general theory of relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity).

Although Orest Chwolson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orest_Chwolson) is credited as being the first to discuss the effect in print in 1924, the effect is more commonly associated with Einstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein), who published a more famous article on the subject in 1936.

Fritz Zwicky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Zwicky) posited in 1937 that the effect could allow galaxy clusters to act as gravitational lenses. It was not until 1979 that this effect was confirmed by observation of the so-called "Twin QSO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_QSO)" SBS 0957+561.

[heyokah]

Except for light bending around massive objects creating "gravitational lensing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gravitational_lens-full.jpg)"... indicating that photons have indeed some mass...



A gravitational lens refers to a distribution of matter (such as a cluster of galaxies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_cluster)) between a distant source (a background galaxy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy)) and an observer, that is capable of bending (lensing) the light from the source, as it travels towards the observer. This effect is known as gravitational lensing and is one of the predictions of Albert Einstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein)'s general theory of relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity).

Although Orest Chwolson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orest_Chwolson) is credited as being the first to discuss the effect in print in 1924, the effect is more commonly associated with Einstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein), who published a more famous article on the subject in 1936.

Fritz Zwicky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Zwicky) posited in 1937 that the effect could allow galaxy clusters to act as gravitational lenses. It was not until 1979 that this effect was confirmed by observation of the so-called "Twin QSO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_QSO)" SBS 0957+561.


So? And? Or do you just want to have the last word, whether useful/relevant or not? ;)

What does this add to the actual question here, being What controls the hologram?

If you don't agree with the idea of this question, feel free to reply in other threads.

Just a friendly suggestion.

[Hervé]

Just that whatever Observer has in mind to do with this thread is based on a flawed premise which doesn't lend much credence to whatever is built upon that flawed premise.

So long and thank you for the fish!

[heyokah]

Just your personal opinion Amzer.

Some other members just wanting to have the last word in this word/ego game?

add

This last remark was not my nicest. I apologize.
But I get so tired of all this....

[Finefeather]

Hi observer
Hope you will be feeling stronger soon...you mentioned you did not have much energy in your last post. Look after yourself old friend...we love you.



In one of your earlier statements you made the observation that none of the scientists used as reference in the Holographic Universe Videos stated "absolutely", regarding the Model. Since we are discussing evidence one may find within this particular reality that might point to an hyperdimensional control mechanism, allow me to point-out that very seldom, if ever, will you find a credentialed Ph.D. scientist confirm "absolutely" with regard to any theory. However, you will rarely, if ever, find one who will apply a "possibility statement" to a theory to which he does not subscribe. So please.... let's at least get real on that one.
I agree entirely with you here, but is this not the whole crux of the argument we seem to be having on this thread? We are trying to determine the validity of information...by your own request...and all that is been offered so far is that there is reason to be doubtful of the possibilities which the scientists, mentioned, have made. So if you are comfortable with the theory of these scientists then what makes the theory of others invalid? If you believe we are all been manipulated then what makes the scientists immune to this?

I look forward to moving on from here...enjoying the thread...thanks.

Take care...and sending you strength and peace.
Ray

[Beren]

Honestly I wasn't following the whole thread but this theme reappears all the time, namely what/who is behind the curtain.
Answer is: we all are.
I mean we as humans in bodies , ourselves in spirit form and other beings who are not in body form.

But it's tricky. How?

Free will granted upon us is leading us to see that all that we think say and act will result on either way upon us.

But here's the catch, in the full consciousness we know what we do.
In limited we don't fully.

So whatever we ever did was our own choice. Full stop.

But some entities figured out that because of their fall in their own consciousness - that they can reap energy in great amounts from other beings.
They felt when further from the source that they are lacking power and that they are transforming into something ugly so they wanted badly to have this energy of life again.
But since of their pride and ego they didn't want to change for better , they decided to steal or generate energy form others in universe.

Since you just cannot steal an energy from another being fully conscious, you have to make a diversion in order that you steal some energy.
Fully conscious being will not ever give you their energy for misuse.

But being in lower conscience will give you their energy without fully realizing what they are doing.

In order for energy thieves to steal, they create various illusions or tricks in which essence lies FEAR.
Fear of loss, or any other thing.

Imposing this maya upon other beings they create false sense of urgency to act on various ways. Hence soul now thinks that it HAS to act this or that way.
Precisely here lies the deception. A false premise that YOU HAVE TO ACT OR EVERYTHING FALLS APART.

In reality you don't have to do anything-even if everything falls apart.

So let's sum it up;
an entity makes a maya to trick you.
You embrace the illusion that it's actually your will.
You act.

They reap the energy from you.

And everything functions like a clock for ages.
But we should never forget that whatever one thinks acts and says, will ultimately bring the fruit to them.

So they can try to evade that actually it wasn't their action but the soul's which led to certain deed.
But if we don't see the main thought which led to the problem, Source sees all. And Source will face everybody with their own actions.

The ones who control the hologram of maya or illusion will face their actions and utterly be judged by the same value they acted upon others.

Our salvation lies in an active will to be one with Source's love.
So we can see , so we can feel so we can act from higher ground.
So we can see tricksters and entities who disrupt us.

Once we pin them down, we are free.

I'm talking collectively.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Here is something which IMO is a lot closer to the truth than anything I have ever heard by those who just have not had the actual experience.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTq0xjJaWkw






Finefeather, this is excellent, thank you for posting. it has opened my eyes widely!
warmest regards, corson

This a very accurate account ( besides the dogmatic tilt ) on how it works in the spirit realms. I am only half way through , i must make a correction , the Lord Deamon does not have fangs or blood dripping from its teeth lol this is her interpretation of its presence when it came to her. When we sense beings of holographic nature they come to us in a blend of them + our belief = visual depiction. Because these things have Intent that can change their visual depiction. Intent min terms of Holograph with regard to Photons i believe are subjective to our beliefs.

I would hypothesise the photons making up this holographic depiction is greatly influenced by Intent + Belief = Depiction.

Naniu

[Beren]

Unmasking the demons is a formidable task and not for the faint of heart.
They are in gruesome forms ( at least they show like that to others whom they encounter) but their inner spark isn`t dark. It`s just deeply buried and forgotten by the very being who became a demon.

Why they appear in monster forms?
To instill fear-to paralyze the opponents.
Reptilians and such all for one goal.

Thus never fear should be the mantra in our experience.

Remembering who we are and being united with Source helps a lot in dealing with these tricky issues.
Their inner core still belongs to Source as all is belonging to the Source.
We need to cut down the monster to release the inner core which is dormant and forgotten by intention.

Then the hologram falls apart.

[observer]

Unmasking the demons is a formidable task and not for the faint of heart.
They are in gruesome forms ( at least they show like that to others whom they encounter) but their inner spark isn`t dark. It`s just deeply buried and forgotten by the very being who became a demon.

Why they appear in monster forms?
To instill fear-to paralyze the opponents.
Reptilians and such all for one goal.

Thus never fear should be the mantra in our experience.

Remembering who we are and being united with Source helps a lot in dealing with these tricky issues.
Their inner core still belongs to Source as all is belonging to the Source.
We need to cut down the monster to release the inner core which is dormant and forgotten by intention.

Then the hologram falls apart.

Thank you Beren for pointing-out how you believe the Control Mechanism can be disassembled. Overcoming fear has a significant amount to do with it.

However, "understanding" (knowledge) is the key to disassembling the mechanism.... Mass Understanding.

[Keep in mind, 'knowledge' is the 'forbidden fruit'. Knowledge of the control mechanism, and how that mechanism works it the part that is 'forbidden']

It is easy for one to read into your interpretation the telepathically implanted concept of "Fear is our Enemy". This is a universal truth which is given to certify a much bigger lie.

Where, within this generally accepted rhetoric, does this interpretation account for endless a$$-biting loops of birth-death-rebirth.... all appearing to be nothing more than a crap-shoot? .... all reoccurring over millennia of time with no, or hardly any, recollection of the former?

A "malevolent controller behind the curtain" does account for this quite apparent phenomenon. All one need do is review the records from antiquity, gleaned from around the globe, and one will quickly realize there is a commonality to the concept of reincarnation. This commonality found in totally disassociated cultures is a key point of objective evidence. It is not a myth, as your Fundamentalist Christians would have you believe, because as has already been stated, "everything we think we understand is a lie".

[Beren]

Thank you Beren for pointing-out how you believe the Control Mechanism can be disassembled. Overcoming fear has a significant amount to do with it.

However, "understanding" (knowledge) is the key to disassembling the mechanism.... Mass Understanding.

[Keep in mind, 'knowledge' is the 'forbidden fruit'. Knowledge of the control mechanism, and how that mechanism works it the part that is 'forbidden']

It is easy for one to read into your interpretation the telepathically implanted concept of "Fear is our Enemy". This is a universal truth which is given to certify a much bigger lie.

Where, within this generally accepted rhetoric, does this interpretation account for endless a$$-biting loops of birth-death-rebirth.... all appearing to be nothing more than a crap-shoot? .... all reoccurring over millennia of time with no, or hardly any, recollection of the former?

A "malevolent controller behind the curtain" does account for this quite apparent phenomenon. All one need do is review the records from antiquity, gleaned from around the globe, and one will quickly realize there is a commonality to the concept of reincarnation. This commonality found in totally disassociated cultures is a key point of objective evidence. It is not a myth, as your Fundamentalist Christians would have you believe, because as has already been stated, "everything we think we understand is a lie".



Thanks for the reply.
I don`t know why you are placing me into a fundamental Christian basket...seems like that you have this conclusion by my comments in the forum, when in fact I never had the "view" you`re attaching to me, just common sense when dealing with Bible and God...
But it`s ok. You are free to think of me whatever you wish.

What happened to you in all those years as you were exploring the worlds seen and unseen that you have this attitude of negation of other people`s experiences?

By your own account and judgement of other`s views and experiences, what makes you think that anyone would trust your view at all?

Just because you say that you found "objective evidences" in David Icke and rest of the links you post?

I call you to raise above your current perception and see that life isn`t that much dark as you perceive it.
Struggles and fights-yes but I don`t know why you put that much power into controllers hands by repeatedly stating "they are cleaver in what they do"
It sounds like Denethor from LOTR who lost all his hope because he glanced into Palantir and believed Sauron`s might has no equal.

Have faith in Love.
In Good.

It`s always darkest before the dawn...and don`t buy all the things you saw that dark ones have in power...

Reincarnation?

You look form Earthly point of view-limited one.
Can you explain why-the reason of souls`s whereabouts in the whole wide universe?

Can you explain how Earth rotates in space?
Can you explain and evidence how Sun is life giving Star for Earth`s life?
Can you explain why and how life is abundant on Earth but is not on Moon or other planets in our system?

Can you?

Then can you explain all the reasons why one soul came here in the first place?
Can you fathom all the possibilities of one soul and places and dimensions where it can be simultaneously?




Then why do you ask continuously these question of hologram and deny the possibility that someone explains to you what`s going on?
Who hurt you this much that you refuse other`s views and help?

It starts to sound like you are preaching your own gospel and whoever isn`t agreeing with you , you label them.
It seems that you doubt in good much but believe in evil more...

WHY?

[observer]

[....snip]
WHY?

Because, Beren, it must be obvious to all that Evil is winning, here within this particular reality.

Your perceptions of my character, which you elaborated on within your comment, are purely your perceptions based on that which I've been trying to point-out ever since we first met back in the 'Bible' Thread.

If one were to follow my comments, through the forums, one will see that I always give documentation in those comments. Much of those links are to the fact that, "everything we think we understand, is a lie".

I wasn't labeling you a Fundamentalist Christian, I was making reference to what the Bible is, and how it was created - out of a lie. Much of the book is fundamental truth, but that truth is only there to certify the bigger lie.

Like many of the other members, the words I say are taken personally. This is indicative of one's ideologies being questioned.... attacked.... even shattered.

Try to use a lesson from history, don't assassinate the messenger....

[Beren]

[....snip]
WHY?

Because, Beren, it must be obvious to all that Evil is winning, here within this particular reality.

Your perceptions of my character, which you elaborated on within your comment, are purely your perceptions based on that which I've been trying to point-out ever since we first met back in the 'Bible' Thread.

If one were to follow my comments, through the forums, one will see that I always give documentation in those comments. Much of those links are to the fact that, "everything we think we understand, is a lie".

I wasn't labeling you a Fundamentalist Christian, I was making reference to what the Bible is, and how it was created - out of a lie. Much of the book is fundamental truth, but that truth is only there to certify the bigger lie.

Like many of the other members, the words I say are taken personally. This is indicative of one's ideologies being questioned.... attacked.... even shattered.

Try to use a lesson from history, don't assassinate the messenger....

I don`t agree with you.
I am just interested in your motives since you believe you got all the answers right.
I don`t think so.
What makes you think for example David Icke is right and for example Finefeather isn`t?



Yes , I am taking personally all the things that I see and experience because the mere fact that I am seeing it or observing it makes me experience all on a personal level.
Further on it`s my decision will this or that bother me at all.

If you believe that evil is winning, then what you will do about it?
Fight them on their level of technology?

Equip yourself with non made public tech so you can fight the ones who control?

I have to remind you that your evidence are not always valid and yet you firmly think they are.
In another words you believe in them.

For example I do not. At least in many things that you present here, yet I see that you are trying to call people for action-which is OK.

So what are we going to do now in solving the world`s problems?
What when in fact one minor earthquake in Earth`s timeless experience can destroy whole civilization of ours...

What are we going to do from your perspective to solve all this-to stop the evil?
How?

By playing their game of war games?
By fearing for our lives since they are winning?

I say no to all this.
I go to the root of the problem - not to the outer layer.
And many here do-don`t judge them. Believe in them as much you believe in evil who is winning.

And yes, I will always take thing personally. You might aswell, since it`s your own life at stake aswell as anyone here and in the world.

[observer]

This thread is not an: "I'm right v. you're right" debate. It is an investigation. An investigation into evidence.... hard physical (objective) evidence.

Finefeather's testimonies are much like a Fundamentalist Christian would "witness" his personal religious experiences. There really is no difference to any subjective "testimonies".

David Icke is only one of the many investigators who I could reference. I'm speaking of individuals who are investigating real physical evidence.

This is why I've asked those wishing to give their own personal witnessing experiences to refrain from commenting within this thread.

This investigation is pointing to the conclusion that the Quantum Field/Astral Plane is cleverly manipulated. This is a conclusion that has been reached by a litany of investigators. This thread is about drawing attention to this irrefutable fact. This is why I often say, "they are very clever at what they do".

Using evidence that was gleaned from the Astral Plane, no matter how convincing it may sound, is similar to using circular logic in a debate. One cannot use testimony recovered from the very place in question (the Astral Plane, or as I prefer, the Quantum Field).

Believing the telepathic message will gain nothing. The knowledge of how they do it is the only way to break the hypnotic spell....

[Beren]

You didn`t answered my question. And I am not debating you in a sense who is right or wrong. Tell me, now how just you want to have an evidence about beings who are in another dimension with evidence which are hard physical ones as you imply?
Yes Astral as you call it or even better quantum field is full of many different things.

But for example I am not talking about Astral as you think so.
But here`s the thing, that whatever one might say here, you`re quick to dismantle their evidences and things as "unqualified" evidence or "not objective".
You still didn`t answer how do you think to prove others that your sources are "objective" vs. mine or others...

But let`s carry on here;

because of this kind of problem here, you will never get your intended reply here or elsewhere, hence will be disappointed.
I cannot help you in this nor anyone else because you have your own limits self imposed. You simply do not accept anything here as evidence.

Progress = zero.

As a matter of fact you start to sound like Niki a former member here who upon every evidence of an offer would ask the same question.

Let`s carry on.

For example you find out that there are group of entities which are residing in another frequency band upon Earth and have sufficient tech which is used to control a piece of Earth.
What are you going to do about it?

If I say that you should ask God (Source of life) for help- you would then defy me saying that it`s worthless since I am under a program.
But then under which program you are if you have this line of thoughts?

Let me tell you a secret which isn`t really but for some is: being one with Creator of life - Source, is merging you with the most sophisticating technology that exist everywhere in all life.

Life itself.

But here`s the catch, you cannot see this and understand this until you are one with God.

Sure, you may imply further that this is a program or lie or whatever you wish for.
You are free to do that.

Just remember - you are a child of God. And despite ALL that you may think or do, still the fire of life is within you, a God`s particle.

[Flash]

There is a difference between critical thinking and bottom line provable 3D objective evidence. Critical thinking does not necessarily need objective evidence. However, in some posts, observer would want critical thinking, yet, in other, he ask for objective 3D down to earth provable evidence. Both do not necessarily go together. And some concepts are not provable, if they were, Einsteins theories would still not exist, let alone Tesla. There would be not advance in science, since research almost always starts out on theories, by definition, not proven yet, but to be hopefully proven or disprovened through research.

By dismissing critical thinking on concept right away because they are subjective, you are, in my idea, going away from evolution and discoveries. We may as well accept creationism.

I have seen critical thinking based on personal evidence rejected by the op for not being objective.

I have seen Beren and Finefeather being qualified as fundamentalist christians or bible people by one strike of the hand, without considering, through critical thinking, their impact.

I have seen Finefeather, Beren, Amer zo, Carmody, and much more asking for a more open discussing, including personal and objective experiences.

This thread is already a fantastic one because of the inputs of great minds and hearts. It could be much more interesting without personal qualitficationss of others (which is very subjective), just with plain open heart and mind, while keeping a critical thinking track.

I wonder what stops you Observer???? Wanting to be right?? I cannot believe that from you, this would be much too "thinking petit" small thinking for you. So, what stops you form opening heart and mind to listen and discuss?

You have here a wonderful thread, just let it participate in the stream of life with all that it involves (personal, objective, heart, mind, research,name it)

I have not participated but have been following,

With all my love and support

Flash

[CD7]

So much time is spent on the syntactical..of all sorts, language, psyche, meanings, justifications, translations, distillations tht the real meat of it never seems to ever b sorted out--EVER Is tht just the nature of a forum program!? who knows---but i would imagine, since "they" are so clever using all of their tools to figure out the game wouldnt fair well as it would just keep feeding into the same machine? Back to square zero

i just simply wonder if the only clarity on anything for all here would b the complete transformation of everything we know

[heyokah]

By dismissing critical thinking on concept right away because they are subjective, you are, in my idea, going away from evolution and discoveries
I have seen critical thinking based on personal evidence rejected by the op for not being objective.

Observer clearly said in the last paragraph of his OP, 


Once any individual begins interpreting any objective data, those interpretations become a subjective understanding and unique to only that individual. Therefore, what I have summarized (above) are nothing more than my own personal subjective observations. Synthesize them into your belief system in whatever fashion that suits your perceptions (free will).



You have here a wonderful thread, just let it participate in the stream of life with all that it involves (personal, objective, heart, mind, research,name it)

I think there are already enough threads where one can participate according to the stream of life with all that it involves (personal, objective, heart, mind, research, name it all) without any restrictions given beforehand.

So, let's now take up the challenge observer is offering us here, which is finding the answer to the question: What controls the hologram?.... with one restriction,.... leaving out any interpretation or critical thinking based on data that could have been obtained from, or influenced by constructed religion, channeled material or other manipulated evidence.

That's the only thing he has been asking from us.

I don't understand why this is so upsetting to some members.

[sheme]

I see a binary star system with a few moons you look at each other and admire the colours so much you never want it to end, your journey gives you much pleasure -when you are ready for the answer you will look inside and see that it was there all along ,enjoy your journey. All my light subjective objective. LOL

I heard some one say "It doesn't matter what you do or say, it is what you think that's important"

[Beren]

By dismissing critical thinking on concept right away because they are subjective, you are, in my idea, going away from evolution and discoveries
I have seen critical thinking based on personal evidence rejected by the op for not being objective.

Observer clearly said in the last paragraph of his OP,


Once any individual begins interpreting any objective data, those interpretations become a subjective understanding and unique to only that individual. Therefore, what I have summarized (above) are nothing more than my own personal subjective observations. Synthesize them into your belief system in whatever fashion that suits your perceptions (free will).



You have here a wonderful thread, just let it participate in the stream of life with all that it involves (personal, objective, heart, mind, research,name it)

I think there are already enough threads where one can participate according to the stream of life with all that it involves (personal, objective, heart, mind, research, name it all) without any restrictions given beforehand.

So, let's now take up the challenge observer is offering us here, which is finding the answer to the question: What controls the hologram?.... with one restriction,.... leaving out any interpretation or critical thinking based on data that could have been obtained from, or influenced by constructed religion, channeled material or other manipulated evidence.

That's the only thing he has been asking from us.

I don't understand why this is so upsetting to some members.

It`s not upsetting thing, just an impossible task to give any data without at least one category here.
My current thought here and now is making me think why bother further when one is stubborn so much and is deliberately blind to answers.

What is a religion?
What is channeling?
What is manipulated evidence?

How do you describe today`s science without a word of religion?
They cannot prove anything now since their models are falling apart daily with new discoveries in quantum physics.
I mean the whole thing is simply built on wrong foundations.

What is channeling?

An inspiration. And as everything can be both good or bar so it is with some inspirations-good of bad vibes.
Tesla was channeling things that nobody believed in or even called him mad.
But because of him we are typing today here on this forum...

But there are also bad channeling and we know their results.
It is the inspiration which counts- In/spiration - the spirit that goes within you so you have a new idea.

Is this bad always as you suggest along with observer here?

Am I a delusional freak or evil because I write poetry and publish a book?
Because I am inspired or so to say channel things that I see in other dimensions and pour them into poems?

Is it possible that a forest cannot be seen from a tree here???

Then the quarrel about subjective Vs. objective.

EVERYTHING is subjective.
Even if presented many times it`s still subjective on each mind observing it.

I remember that Observer once stated that after several decades of following chanellers and being deluded few times that he discarded all that is remotely close to spirit experience.
Yet he asks what control the hologram.

Spirits my friend-spirits.

But see because of his disappointment he doesn`t want to discuss things perpetually dismissing other experiences as invalid. If this continues further I am afraid he will get no answer to his questions.

And you CANNOT prove this by any physical objective proof ever.
Because someone has to SUBJECTIVELY believe you and others may not . According to their SUBJECTIVE opinion at the time.

If you want to deal with spirits and their reasons for making the hologram or else discussed in this thread - you will have to broaden your perception or you will be perpetually stuck at square one.

And I rest my case here.
And again I am taking this personally since everything is personal despite you don`t think so.
It is I or you who decide what they will do with presented information.

This thread will become a futile experiment if we negate the obvious things in existence.

[Delight]

Thank you Beren for pointing-out how you believe the Control Mechanism can be disassembled. Overcoming fear has a significant amount to do with it.

However, "understanding" (knowledge) is the key to disassembling the mechanism.... Mass Understanding.

[Keep in mind, 'knowledge' is the 'forbidden fruit'. Knowledge of the control mechanism, and how that mechanism works it the part that is 'forbidden']

It is easy for one to read into your interpretation the telepathically implanted concept of "Fear is our Enemy". This is a universal truth which is given to certify a much bigger lie.

Where, within this generally accepted rhetoric, does this interpretation account for endless a$$-biting loops of birth-death-rebirth.... all appearing to be nothing more than a crap-shoot? .... all reoccurring over millennia of time with no, or hardly any, recollection of the former?

A "malevolent controller behind the curtain" does account for this quite apparent phenomenon. All one need do is review the records from antiquity, gleaned from around the globe, and one will quickly realize there is a commonality to the concept of reincarnation. This commonality found in totally disassociated cultures is a key point of objective evidence. It is not a myth, as your Fundamentalist Christians would have you believe, because as has already been stated, "everything we think we understand is a lie".



Thanks for the reply.
I don`t know why you are placing me into a fundamental Christian basket...seems like that you have this conclusion by my comments in the forum, when in fact I never had the "view" you`re attaching to me, just common sense when dealing with Bible and God...
But it`s ok. You are free to think of me whatever you wish.

What happened to you in all those years as you were exploring the worlds seen and unseen that you have this attitude of negation of other people`s experiences?

By your own account and judgement of other`s views and experiences, what makes you think that anyone would trust your view at all?

Just because you say that you found "objective evidences" in David Icke and rest of the links you post?

I call you to raise above your current perception and see that life isn`t that much dark as you perceive it.
Struggles and fights-yes but I don`t know why you put that much power into controllers hands by repeatedly stating "they are cleaver in what they do"
It sounds like Denethor from LOTR who lost all his hope because he glanced into Palantir and believed Sauron`s might has no equal.

Have faith in Love.
In Good.

It`s always darkest before the dawn...and don`t buy all the things you saw that dark ones have in power...

Reincarnation?

You look form Earthly point of view-limited one.
Can you explain why-the reason of souls`s whereabouts in the whole wide universe?

Can you explain how Earth rotates in space?
Can you explain and evidence how Sun is life giving Star for Earth`s life?
Can you explain why and how life is abundant on Earth but is not on Moon or other planets in our system?

Can you?

Then can you explain all the reasons why one soul came here in the first place?
Can you fathom all the possibilities of one soul and places and dimensions where it can be simultaneously?




Then why do you ask continuously these question of hologram and deny the possibility that someone explains to you what`s going on?
Who hurt you this much that you refuse other`s views and help?

It starts to sound like you are preaching your own gospel and whoever isn`t agreeing with you , you label them.
It seems that you doubt in good much but believe in evil more...

WHY?

Beren,
This post is very appreciated.
What if "we" control the hologram? What if "we" includes everything? What if there is nothing but light?
This is so huge as to confound the mental capacity and cannot be understood.
But some part of me realizes that I have been the one to reject my connection. I did it willingly but I was goaded by an un-nameable fear that I tried to put my finger on.
Then I hit bottom.
Now at the bottom, I have to choose a balance of "faith". I agree that when I have felt so very paranoid, I rejected any help.
I have been paranoid since I can recall. Maybe I chose to be taught by the limits of "self" so I'd get sick and tired and allow the help?
In my personal Life I feel I have created such an extreme state because I want to be able to trust that benevolence a larger enveloping lover.
I have to choose God or i will die. That is what i know from my suffering.
This "time" seems to be taking us to the edge of our alone attempts to cope. We cannot stand apart and I have managed to attempt the impossible.
People may think this is religious but it is about electro/magnetics in a way that I cannot understand.
This is something I am beginning to contemplate.
I know this is about some opportunity that we are receiving.

[greybeard]

Hi Delight.
Basically the thread on transcending ego may help you have a better balance.
The ego likes to keep you in fear---that is the controller not an external entity.
I agree with Beren-- we have different ways of expressing but its coming from the same place

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=652709&viewfull=1#post652709

Please have a look at what I have written on the linked post.
In line with this thread we are the totality all of it.
Everything that we individually experiencing adds to the hologram.
A rising tide lifts all boats----- consciousness is rising.
Chris

[Delight]

In line with this thread we are the totality all of it.
Everything that we individually experiencing adds to the hologram.
A rising tide lifts all boats----- consciousness is rising.
Chris

I appreciated the link to your post and yes, I believe I was saying something similar but more dramatically first person.
And there is a rising tide of light...
And the choice to rise is sort of what I feel about deep desire to allow that "faith" that the intellect cannot grasp and that may be part of a plan.
I accept my limitations and I will agree that I do not really know anything. My Ego has been agreeing due to the suffering of complete failure.
I believe my ego wishes to rise and seems ready to capitulate for the "good" of "we".
Eckert Tolle in one talk \I heard said the Ego was not a mistake, just part of the Big Trip and I beleve "we" are ready for a new experience.

[Beren]

Beren,
This post is very appreciated.
What if "we" control the hologram? What if "we" includes everything? What if there is nothing but light?
This is so huge as to confound the mental capacity and cannot be understood.
But some part of me realizes that I have been the one to reject my connection. I did it willingly but I was goaded by an un-nameable fear that I tried to put my finger on.
Then I hit bottom.
Now at the bottom, I have to choose a balance of "faith". I agree that when I have felt so very paranoid, I rejected any help.
I have been paranoid since I can recall. Maybe I chose to be taught by the limits of "self" so I'd get sick and tired and allow the help?
In my personal Life I feel I have created such an extreme state because I want to be able to trust that benevolence a larger enveloping lover.
I have to choose God or i will die. That is what i know from my suffering.
This "time" seems to be taking us to the edge of our alone attempts to cope. We cannot stand apart and I have managed to attempt the impossible.
People may think this is religious but it is about electro/magnetics in a way that I cannot understand.
This is something I am beginning to contemplate.
I know this is about some opportunity that we are receiving. Thank you for your deep honesty here.
We all add up to the hologram. Key is the rising in consciousness to understand what`s going on and how universe works. When one does that then what happens is that one cuts off all leeches from him/her.

Leeches or spirits gridlocked into vampire of energy mode are then dealt with. With compassion BUT firmness.
Meaning by cutting them off , you are destroying their evil template and potentially freeing the inner spark of those spirits-which is Source`s.

Spirits manipulate others and deliberately keeping them down in illusion so that souls in their chaotic sowing or dispersing of energy (which is inherently abundant) act as host entities which produce energy for them.
Until one grows up in consciousness and is awaken - one will not realize what`s going on at all.

Growing up in consciousness meaning being closer and closer or uniting with God-Source-Creator-Love.

And here lies the possible trap; namely Observer was right in this instance here- many spirits pose falsely as Source or God thus misleading innocent souls into further energy trap.
But the only true validator is the Love.
Love is.

Love is God and God is Love.

The one falsely appearing as God can mimic Love but cannot carry its vibration.
Then you will have to search your soul and its core (because it`s made of sheer Love`s spark) to recognize the God`s imprint thus to be safe when asking God for help.

Then you`ll recognize are some spiritual forces fooling you or you are actually communicating with God.
Above all never fear when dealing with spirits. Be Love in energy and intent.

[observer]

Statement of Intention:
It was never the intention of this thread to prove the Holographic Universe Model to be the absolute description of how this particular reality operates. That Model was introduced in the OP of this thread as a vehicle to explore a possibility of how this reality operates and how, what we all see and experience, could be cleverly manipulated from an hyperdimensionally controlled mechanism. The Model was suggested so that we could look at the physical evidence which brings one to this obvious "control mechanism" conclusion.

I offer the following video in response to all those members expressing a doubt in the Holographic Universe Model:
Link to the Nova Series Program - Quantum Mechanics - The Fabric of the Cosmos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii-rgZG9rlc
(pay particular attention to what is said beginning at around 48 min.: 30 sec.)

[The Holographic Universe Model offers one possible explanation of the "weirdness at the quantum level": that is, if one accepts the concept that there is a control mechanism that causes a commonality to occur out of the quantum field of infinite potential.]

One might note a quote from Werner Heisenberg (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1932/heisenberg-bio.html)the father of Quantum Mechanics:


" It is impossible to design an apparatus to determine which slit the electron passes through that will not, at the same time, disturb the electron enough to collapse its wave function, destroying the interference pattern"
If this is not "observation" than explain just what observation is.

Assuming there are many different interpretations one can make from the Quantum Mechanics data, i.e. "matter only exists as a particle-form when it is being observed, otherwise it exists as a wave-form". One of those possible interpretations has been expressed as the Holographic Universe Model.

The above Nova Documentary suggests there are many different interpretations , the Multiple Universe Model is yet another assumption, and is the conclusion of that documentary. If that is where any member wishes to go, than please, be my guest, just keep your derailing comments out of this thread. This thread is not about proving or disproving scientific models. It is about presenting physical evidence that this particular reality is being cleverly manipulated.

I have reviewed the Primer Field videos a second time, and I reiterate what I said in an earlier comment:

" Many times, in other threads, over the time I've been a member, I have referenced the work of David Talbott, and Wallace Thornhill regarding the possibility of an Electric Universe Model.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AUA7XS0TvA
(That is David Talbott, not to be confused with Michael Talbot.)

I find the evidence you have provided in the Primer Field Videos to be supportive to the Electric Universe Model. I do not find the Primer Field Information having any bearing on the Holographic Universe Model. I personally have no difficulty merging the two unrelated concepts into one Unified Model, however.

My conclusion, here would be: the same "something" that turned on the holographic projector, also flipped the switch that causes this Electric Universe to continue operating. "


If one were to go to the list of Research References, found in the OP of this thread, one will clearly see that list contains far more than the one particular video series to which some members are objecting. The entire list was posted as a foundation for interpreting a control mechanism into this particular reality. I have modified that list with updates to the specific experiment that was brought into question. I have readdressed the photon v. electron issue repeatedly, to the avail of no satisfactory answer from any of those questioning the physics lab data. The Nova Documentary clearly defines the physics lab data, all supporting the Holographic Universe Model. Yet, I'm told that my research isn't adequate, that I must document all the physicists who support this Holographic Model.

The resources have been clearly a part of the foundations of this thread since it was first posted. If any member is unwilling to apprise themselves of that foundational understanding, and repeatedly comes into the thread and makes derailing statements, regarding his nebulous understanding of a concept that has wide acceptance within the scientific community, than it appears (to me) you have no real intention of looking at the stated purpose of the thread at all.


There are references to Michael Talbot's work, for instance. Any concerned researcher would check-out the many other links one might find regarding his work.
There is a book by David Icke referenced, David's work is prolific on the internet.
There is also a link to the Nag Hammadi Library listed.

All of these links were presented as a foundational guide for the direction of this thread. All of those links are foundational to getting to the evidence that can be gleaned from the Historic Record regarding an objective interpretation of this Holographic Universe Model. How much of the Research References has any of those intent on derailing reviewed?

I would suggest that the continued disruption into the flow of that information represents a personal opinions of this particular reality, and represents a clear indication that many of the members simply don't wish this kind of information discussed.

[Bo Atkinson]

Just in case the hologram was sort of a voluntary trance and... If our feelings and perceptions energized this isotropic reception of reality... If human reality was sort of a fly-eye experience. Like the dandelion seeds forming before the breeze. While all life's stimuli come at us.... Some sort of control or implicate order happens, whether it is personal or impersonal.

Scientific observation is considered by a personality, usually in direct lines of sight. Yet this tapering cone of vision, focusses inwardly, to see things meaningfully in context. To make a point of it! Opacity in the imagery rules the meanings. Remove the perspectives. Remove the auto-focusing. Remove the opacity of materiality. Now we could see all things timeless, transparent and outside of earthly functions.

Does one want that? Well, perhaps not exactly, perhaps there is something fun up ahead of the curve. Perhaps we can learn to make creative things happen. Can we learn or present skills of observation? Can we solve the confused views of others? Can we overcome the nasty views of the power-lusting demons? Can we compare the hologram to a higher order game?

So what controls the individualities, the viewpoints, the view angles, the autofocus, the opacity, the transparency, the field effects or... What controls the trance? I'm persuaded that it is all a voluntary game with set rules of views and rules of materiality. To make the game well worth it, for all folks, for the awake, for the aware and for the sleepy folks too. To experience what we can experience, whether it's a slit experiment, or two.

In this view, triangulated perception, (observation), controls the hologram. Give it a look, to keep it going. Build an experiment. Consult some well tested viewpoints. Wire up a the electronics to view particles of waves, or is it waves of particles. You decide. The nodes and the nulls, the parts and the whole, will manifest the points we make of them.

Thanks for the thread Observer and thanks to all who posted here. May the thread continue with more points.

~w~

[observer]

.... yet, wavydome, we all share a commonality when it comes to perceiving reality. We all interpret the Quantum Field of Infinite Possibility to reveal an apple to be an apple, regardless if there are infinite interpretations possible. I'm assuming you are saying, this commonality is due to some sort of hypnotic trance?

I don't believe there is any argument regarding the hypnotic trance.

The social order has been hypnotically manipulated since the Dawn of Man. There is much more causing a commonality to emerge from the Quantum Field of Infinite Possibility than simply certain specific elite elements of the Mass of Humanity hypnotically manipulating the social order. This hypnotic trance has continued for much too long to be simply the result of Human Manipulation.

There is something outside of this particular reality that causes this commonality.

The Holographic Universe Model goes a long way to explaining this phenomenon.

Science is an ever evolving pursuit of knowledge. There is already enough scientific awareness to get one through the night, but we are a long way from understanding everything. One must not go to sleep with the knowledge that the Mass of Humanity is hypnotized. That knowledge alone will not release one from the grip of the matrix of control.

It is only through knowledge of the mechanics of the control mechanism that will release one from the paralyzing grip of that which controls.

I would suggest there are far more entities living within this particular reality who are not enjoying the ride - at all.

Research Resource:
David Icke - Parasite Entities That Feed Off Human Emotional Energy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmktbVlZlGg

[CD7]

It is only through knowledge of the mechanics of the control mechanism that will release one from the paralyzing grip of that which controls.


Wht knowledge does one need to know for release? I mean once someone knows the mechanics...wht is done by the being?



I would suggest there are far more entities living within this particular reality who are not enjoying the ride - at all.

Yes..this "ride" effects many...tht is a vital issue tht is heartbreaking to observe....

[araucaria]

I would suggest that the continued disruption into the flow of that information represents a personal opinions of this particular reality, and represents a clear indication that many of the members simply don't wish this kind of information discussed.

Dear Observer, there is no need to see a conspiracy of silence where it might be better merely to note some difficulty for people to factor in your formulation of the situation without inevitably straying “off topic”. The following will also seem off topic but I am afraid it is the best I can do to engage in this dialogue rather than hold my tongue. There is certainly to my mind nothing undiscussable here that would suggest the operation of the matrix actually on this thread.

Objective data is a wave form. Whenever it collapses into particles it becomes subjective, which is what we mean when we says it depends on the perceptions of an observer. Multiple observers produce not objectivity but only multiple subjectivity, in other words consensus. Our reality only holds together on the basis of this consensus. My purpose here is to provide my subjectivity to the full, in the face of consensus. I have my very personal way of seeing things, and as an individual observer I insist on enforcing this defining trait of mine. To that extent, I am going to disagree to some small extent with everyone else, although exchanging viewpoints is diametrically opposed to open conflict.

As “hard evidence”, a dinosaur fossil is very subjective; we can all come up with a theory as to what it is or means. Some will build it up with corroborative evidence of the same type into a theory that large animals once roamed this planet, neglecting any problems that this may in turn raise. Another hypothesis might be that the fossil was made by… a fossil maker. In the holographic model, this suddenly becomes a lot more likely that it first seemed. If everything is an illusion, this particular item might as well be an illusion in this way rather than that.

Science operates on the basis of spotting anomalies, just as solving jigsaw puzzles relies on spotting mistakes. Forbidden archaeology is all about anomalies that have been swept under the carpet to create a false scenario for human history. Such material is one kind of hard evidence we look at. The Moon is another anomaly: too large, too close, too convenient for solar eclipses, too hollow… - in a word probably artificial. We might also consider ways in which our reality appears to be somewhat botched. Our Earth is slightly off kilter, it has a not quite circular orbit in not quite the ideal 360 days etc. These may be the signs either of a demiurge’s incompetence, or simply the signs of a more complex system than we presently think, e.g. a binary star system. Or both: obfuscation is one aspect of satanic cunning passing off substandard counterfeit goods as the real thing.

Either way, we know that we are always working on the basis of our current best educated guess, and here our subjective choice is to see that as good or bad, or to be non-judgmental observers and refuse to make that call. It seems to me that the emerging picture is that from seeing the universe as “all that is” we have by all accounts evolved towards the idea of several universes, i.e. that “all that is” is rather less than the whole story. Whether “good” or “bad”, it is certainly imperfect.

Given that “knowledge”, individual at first then consensual, what we can do is to inject some of the “out there” into this limited universe and see what happens. The holographic model, we tend to forget this, is less than the full monty: more like Plato’s cave than full dolby surround. Evidence of this is the concordant message brought back by NDErs and OBErs. In a spirit of Jamesian pragmatism, I tend to view things on the basis of whether they are agreeable to us or not. I can only adopt what works for me in my microcosm and suppose that if it works here it will work for others elsewhere. Anything that brings greater peace and harmony I count as being for “good”. My only yardstick is whether or not I achieve that. If anomalous behaviour by others with a different view of what is good disrupts this harmony, then this option is also the best way of dealing with the problem. Disorderliness is easier to deal with in a library atmosphere than in a shopping mall.

[Bo Atkinson]

observer: The Holographic Universe Model goes a long way to explaining this phenomenon...

Which in large measure is a technology involving wave manifestations, interference nodes, condensates forming particle flows and the many cycles of conditional conjugations. Aside to the bored and the weary: This can be much more than just pouring from the empty into the void, it can become fun to expand with multiple disciplines, via- creatively.


observer: ...It is only through knowledge of the mechanics of the control mechanism that will release one from the paralyzing grip of that which controls...

Yes, communications becomes a solvent. How on earth do we inspire technological love of learning the mechanisms? How are common humans moved into creative multi tasking, multi learning and solving society's problems creatively? I see many doing so in decentralized fashion, which i believe is beneficial.


observer: ...There is something outside of this particular reality that causes this commonality...

My take is that external realities have designed and implemented these 'commonalities'. By proportioning more or less "frequency band width". Or more or less 'reach'. Beings are typically using 30º cones of perception and projection. The cone can still surf the web or switch bands, here or there.

An era with "the bad guy" on top of materialistic hierarchies, is a games condition like a software script. The "good guys" scripts are cherished roles to play here: Master the challenges of discernment and expand bandwidth of awareness. Filter off the traps of materialism, which are so cunning and hypnotic.


observer: I would suggest there are far more entities living within this particular reality who are not enjoying the ride - at all.


I have been exposed to a wide range of "necessity levels". I should know. Necessity provides many kinds of life's lessons. Negligence, abuse and incompetence are harsher games in materialism. Games of becoming planetary beings provides countless scripts to taste, to challenge, to fulfill. To face the trials and tribulations and not fall to the temptations of materialism.



CD7: ... Wht knowledge does one need to know for release? I mean once someone knows the mechanics...wht is done by the being?

I look for shortcuts but decided that the long runs can become quite beneficial, for instance, to study comprehensive-ism. Among other rules, to take responsibility for personal life as-is, work through it. Steer towards the outcomes of one's higher beliefs, then cruise and learn, walk and talk at the same time.


araucaria: ...Given that “knowledge”, individual at first then consensual, what we can do is to inject some of the “out there” into this limited universe and see what happens. The holographic model, we tend to forget this, is less than the full monty: more like Plato’s cave than full dolby surround....

Yes, i feel the struggle of resonating allocated bands to any consensus. The rules and regs of radio modulation do limit the bandwidth of communication. Still we can sweep all the bands, accept and abide by the rules.

To reject the rules because we stubbed our toe, is quite costly. Keep the hand on that plow....

~~~

Let us try paraphrasing more of our complex perceptions of the system.

Other sorts of reality-manipulation are coming to literature and to scholarship... EG: The Matrix Deciphered by Dr Robert Duncan. (He published a free book easily found on line). He was a researcher and original builder of mind control equipment, who eventually became a whistle blower-- He was not initially informed about the malice of forethought-- This was not in the job description. The best and brightest are typically lured into high paying careers. While bright they may be, they typically encounter lessons of discernment. He sure did and shared it well. It seems he shared it heroically.

Book: by this whistle blower, Robert Duncan: http://www.freedomfchs.com/thematrixdeciph.pdf
and/or
http://thoughtlessness23.blogspot.com These are long, hard text files. Doing some basic study, even older AC vs Digital training, such as radio communications tech is highly recommended. I did this study at age 20, through snail mail-- It is easier to study on line, if one can focus that 30º cone of attention or go laser pointer with that. Isotropic studies is easier understood with baby steps in many subjects, for starters. I've been at this for 4 decades plus, by now and write all this in hopes of encouraging others.

Let me interpret a little more of the free, online book:

Duncan's heterodyning tech actually can have good applications, if it is not directed by an enemy cabal. In any case, his equipment works a little like ordinary radio waves, tuned like a mind-transceiver. Call it an iphone stabbed into the personality, the 'me-being' within. This tech was hijacked, for the purpose of directly manipulating populations. This too, is a level of hypnotic, smart phone trance. According to the Dr, this tech is not 100% effective on everyone. Which means that sentient beings can become aware of deceptively-overlayed communications, or even of psychic attacks upon self. Discernment is a radio filter of choice or a shield for self. Awareness is not easily fooled by "the voice of god" and other deception scripts, reportedly on que. Among various deception games on que, to enslave masses.

So far, it seems, that this brand new cycle of the ages can not be manipulated by the cabal, as seemingly they lust for--With malice of forethought to thwart the cyclic scripts, to imortalize "the bad guy" scene. It might even be backfiring within their own ranks. As cabalistic mind distortions are exessively-competitive (and, hmmm, psychopathic). While physical world operations require significant cooperation, to carry on, to balance forward, to process, to fulfill game scripts all around. I still try to decipher the faulty cabalistic delusions of stealing without blowback. Unchecked, endless stealing, eventually erodes the thieve's own shields. Game over. Nevertheless, this process might draw-out over time. So that multi-disciplined learning, is the most valuable asset, to thrive under stress. (The grand uncle of intervention).

Individualist creativity is essentially the cabal's mightiest foe. Creativity is most effective if it implements all the game rules, ie wisdom of the ages. While at the same time adds a significant creative flare. The system does attempt to marginalize basic creativity, but ultimately, the best creation shines on through it all. Let our little lights shine. Small is beautiful. Beauty can best the beast.

~w~

[observer]

wavydome: "Individualist creativity is essentially the cabal's mightiest foe."

You will get no debate from me regarding that statement, wavydome. But, here's the rub:


wavydome: "Creativity is most effective if it implements all the game rules, ie wisdom of the ages."

Once one 'buys a ticket' on this ride of karma, one is trapped here until that ride is over - quite possibly another eternity. No one has ever returned after the ride was over and given any sort of physical evidence of what may be expected at the conclusion of the ride. There are those who say it's a "pit of fire", others say it's "eternal bliss". They say it's all a matter of following the rules, but:

• No one has ever given a clear list of the rules.
• The rules change all the time.
• As soon as one figures-out the rules, they get another trip around the wheel in which all that one may have gained in some previous lifetime is forgotten, and it becomes a crap-shoot as to whether one will pick-up where one left-off.
• All the while an hyperdimensional life-form is feeding off the energies.

Where in these obvious facts does one see any "wisdom of the ages" coming out of this alleged "Sacred Knowledge"? It looks more to me like "Old Failed Theologies", and "Sacred Deception"; both one-in-the-same.

It's a "game of chance, baby".... and the tables are tilted.... and individually, we don't stand a chance....

That's why it is imperative that the majority of Mass of Humanity understand the mechanics of the mechanism that controls this particular reality before any change might occur.

[As a compliment to the Robert Duncan material you referenced in your comment #193, I should add the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdB-tbzJSrk
(Pay particular attention to what Dr. Trower is saying around the 11 minute mark)

This 'microwave warfare technology' dates back to the work of Nicola Tesla. It has been a element of the Black Ops tool box for the best part of one hundred years. ]

[Finefeather]

Well it seems to me that we're just going round in circles here observer.
You present the implant story as a compliment to Robert Duncan's work and Robert Duncan is quite clear in his book that the control is a Military/Industrial Complex conspiracy to make us believe we are been 'attacked' or threatened by Aliens.
I am a bit lost as to where your argument is in view of this. If you can believe...and I do also...that we are been implanted with man made technology...where does the hyperdimensional story come from?

Now you say
Once one 'buys a ticket' on this ride of karma, one is trapped here until that ride is over which implies that you yourself bought a ticket...did you not know what the drill was going to be when you bought your ticket? because I knew...but here I am moving into the non evidence territory so once again...dead end.

The biggest hole in your argument and presentation, as I see it, is that there are billions of people on this planet who are living quite comfortably and quite happily despite the tiny few people, like yourself, who claim we are in a prison controlled by some alien force...when a person like Robert Duncan makes it quite clear...and it does not take a rocket scientist to be able to see the truth and the reason behind whats going on...that it has nothing to do with aliens and everything to do with greed, power and money.

Your paranoia about aliens and hyperdimensional beings is without one bit of evidence...unless we have to take some of your evidence by people who themselves are either ignorant, in bed with the elite or illuminati or whoever it is, or have nothing better to do other than to concoct sensational stories for the gullible to lap up and become like them...and hence like you...living in fear for the rest of your lives.

You are so adamant that you are right and yet so blind to the fact that there are people on this planet who have seen for themselves...by real phenomena, like NDE or OBE or Self Enlightenment, that what you are so paranoid about is actually a figment of your mind.

If you are so set in finding out the truth then what is stopping you from experiencing some of these abilities that millions of people have? are you frightened your theory may be disproved...by your own experience?
Your theory has about as much merit as any other theory...
If you take some time to study the work of the Monroe Institute or the Phase Study...you might just get some peace in your life.
Take care
Ray


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsE4mdB1-t4

[heyokah]

What knowledge does one need to know for release? I mean once someone knows the mechanics...what is done by the being?

Good question.

Among others, David Icke has given us a good picture of how the system of control might be working. This information is all 'of the brain'.
I think now he is trying to show us a way out, through Consciousness, as we are more than just a brain.
What does he actually mean by this Consciousness?

When information is falling like seed on unprepared ground, it might end up in fear, anger or the feeling of being personally attacked.
That all depends on the energy level on which the receiver is vibrating at that moment, the element Earth, Water or Fire. Only from the vibration level of Air (where Heart resides) and higher (Ether, Sound and Light), the information will probably be understood with discernment, creativity and in full awareness (consciousness) so it can be transformed into something fruitful.

I think David Icke is telling us that the truth about breaking free of our enslavement is twofold ..... we'll probably have to do OUR part as well.

[Bo Atkinson]

..........

wavydome: "Creativity is most effective if it implements all the game rules, ie wisdom of the ages."

Once one 'buys a ticket' on this ride of karma, one is trapped here until that ride is over - quite possibly another eternity. No one has ever returned after the ride was over ...Admitting my years of struggle with many disappointments, no matter...

We can enjoy savoring many conjectures. I hope mine find a place in the sun.



• No one has ever given a clear list of the rules.

You bet, as that is the agreement made on the higher level-- To be distinguished from the cabal who is trying to hijack the lower level of earths present course.

IMHO- The higher level game is not malicious as is the cabal game brain-assulting us here in "3d".


• The rules change all the time.

Reports, conjecture and plays are changing... We don't automatically get tickets to sweep or spectrum analyze the all and everything. We can in fact study and grow. We can invest in tools-- I still have a tool or two from my teen age years.


• As soon as one figures-out the rules, they get another trip around the wheel in which all that one may have gained in some previous lifetime is forgotten, and it becomes a crap-shoot as to whether one will pick-up where one left-off.

I rather think this is more of typical doubt-implanting or challenges we are given to deal with. The challenge of needing to build our own knowledge base of the present lifetime. Build well, accept faults, work through them, (old wisdom stuff).

Let's also consider what would be the perfect matrix or toatlity-system one might choose to live in? My reflection on these is that such a life is boring in context with the planetary being game. In other words, humanoid bodies are automatically filled with challenges, like that roller-coater ride at the park.


• The rules change all the time.


• As soon as one figures-out the rules, they get another trip around the wheel in which all that one may have gained in some previous lifetime is forgotten, and it becomes a crap-shoot as to whether one will pick-up where one left-off.

Here especially i recommend the notion of inheriting wisdom stuff. I regard intuition, invention and even the genetic-entity-data-steams as resources we can and usually do tap into. Keep taping, try what works, innovate, don't give up.


• All the while an hyperdimensional life-form is feeding off the energies.

We can stop manifesting baser energies... i've struggled with temptation. It tries to control. redirect energies to creativity, like reversing the flow.


Where in these obvious facts does one see any "wisdom of the ages" coming out of this alleged "Sacred Knowledge"? It looks more to me like "Old Failed Theologies, and "Sacred Deception"; both one-in-the-same.

Amen and Ah...Yes, "pouring from the empty into the void" (GI Gurdjieff).... Ya, i got bored with this planetary game too, even getting despaired at times... Here is where a stronger practice of one's own specific creativity comes in: Build thing(s) which are appropriately satisfying. It's hard to sell to others, but no matter. We are in hard times, don't expect payoffs. Just expect sustenance on a shoe string, (the case of a growing silent majority). Also resonate with others, building the web connectors of life. That's what planetary beings do....


It's a "game of chance, baby".... and the tables are tilted.... and individually, we don't stand a chance....

Feel the thrills my friends.... But hold on to forbearance too, (though ancient this may be)....


That's why it is imperative that the majority of Mass of Humanity understand the mechanics of the mechanism that controls this particular reality before any change might occur.

Cheers to this. Drink it to the full!


(Pay particular attention to what Dr. Trower is saying around the 11 minute mark)]

I like his testimony and pointing out the criminality. Now where is justice? The appreciation of which we should impart to many in our life-- Regardless of how weak this sphere might seem to us. First though is to polish it up with our creative force, make it look good, even if cost nothing, besides our inspiration and our time..

My suggestion: We need to design a thread or rather a chart to hang on the wall:

It needs to ultimately be edited or tailored to individual lives.

It needs to cover talking points like the criminality evidence, but well punctuated with cases on-topic and tailored for the the audience people can reach. Forget: "one shoe fits all.



Finefeather:
Well it seems to me that we're just going round in circles here observer....

Yes good sir, i appreciate what you say, because i spent my awareness very multi-culturally, (nearly from birth as an expat, besides). So it became natural for me to force myself into patience role. I think that our friend observer is outraged and to an understandable extent deserves his stand. May we keep the foci on the OP sci stuff, touch upon smaller segments of the spiritual stuff, with larger examples linked to 'real' world sci-mechanics. May we keep challenges friendly. Or measured a just bit more than usual, to make us all stronger.

[observer]

from Finefeather's comment #195: " Well it seems to me that we're just going round in circles here observer."

Your intentions are clear, Ray. You only wish to prove the point of this thread to be false. That which you characterize as my "paranoia" is simply your theologies being challenged. There is no paranoia involved in the pursuit of a trail of evidence.

Nowhere did I make the claim that those manipulating this particular reality were "aliens". Your Phase Video is useless in proving that point. In fact, the video only goes to show how so many are easily confused through the clever manipulation of telepathic thought.

As to the Dr. Barrie Trower video being about "implants", although implants were discussed in that video, it was primarily about the use of microwave weapons. You obviously didn't listen all the way through.

And to the Robert Duncan information being only about military involvement in the 'mind control game', one must synthesize the evidence gleaned from Dr. Trower, and Robert Duncan to reach an hyperdimensional conclusion - not an alien conclusion.

So, please Ray, again I ask that you cease and desist form slandering my character with your bursts of debate, and allow this thread to seek the objective evidence we are pursuing.

To quote from wavydome's last comment:

"May we keep the foci on the OP sci stuff, touch upon smaller segments of the spiritual stuff, with larger examples linked to 'real' world sci-mechanics."

That, sir, is thie intention of this thread....

[Delight]

I have been entering into some days of deep confrontation with "who" (myself) has been creating an unpleasant paradigm.
After deeply feeling into my own turmoil, tension, grasping, flip flopping, hate and fear, I am sure that I have had enough. One of the greatest realizations that I have at the moment is that actually I have had complete agreement with everything that I am a partcipant in. I feel that I have now turned my attention to a very fruitful "place" that seems to be a real place in my heart. Daily now I meditate with a willingness to be in communication. This step is huge as fro most of my life I refused any contact. The excuses were many and various but the truth is that I was content to be amsierable.

Now I no longer agree to misery. One of the things I had to do in my meditation was release every being I had contained in my heart. These may just be energetic signatures but for me they were a multitude (maybe over 8 billion) of thought forms of responsibility.

You may scoff but for me this is real inner science of living in "wherever this is". The story matters only to me about what this is here. I feel fuller and more capable to be myself and be loving and fear is manageable as i agree to be a student of the organic inner light. I trust this light to assist me. I have let go of practically all paranoia so I can feel fully...the Universe is benevolent and I am at the right place time and experience for me who is the beloved of light.....

I will see the use by fruits expressed. Will I be more of service and able to give and receive and be in peace, not just for meditation hours? I believe the still small voice in the heart is singing Yes. Love to all beings as we traverse the hologram... Maggie

[CD7]

CD7: ... Wht knowledge does one need to know for release? I mean once someone knows the mechanics...wht is done by the being?

wavydome
I look for shortcuts but decided that the long runs can become quite beneficial, for instance, to study comprehensive-ism. Among other rules, to take responsibility for personal life as-is, work through it. Steer towards the outcomes of one's higher beliefs, then cruise and learn, walk and talk at the same time.


Is this wht u r referring to?

http://mark_archuleta.tripod.com/Comprehensivism.html


Comprehensivists' Beliefs and Methods
Typical Cultural Beliefs and Methods

Comprehensivists see whole systems and understand how the parts work and interact. They are needed to optimize whole systems. Start with the biggest view possible, and then look at the details of the most important situations.
Specialists are used to improve specific system aspects. They see a narrow, detailed view. (Specialist roles were initially assigned to prevent more intelligent people from having a fuller view, thereby keeping them "divided and conquered".) They often don't see the big picture, thinking that is the responsibility of politicians.
Intuition is the first step of great discoveries and inventions. All great self-educated individuals intuitively derived what and when to learn.

Comprehensivists often create their own experiments to explore new or verify current assumptions.
Logic, memorization, and micro-skills are the foundations of most educational methods. Students are given few opportunities to use their big-picture skills while integrating all of the facts and micro-skills.
Realistic accounting of wealth---not as material possessions, but "Wealth is our organized capability to cope effectively with the environment in sustaining our healthy regeneration and decreasing both the physical and metaphysical restrictions of the forward days of our lives." (Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth, p. 85)
Materialistic accounting of wealth---most economists are focused on unemployment and Gross National Product and productivity measured in terms of manufacturing outputs. There is little, if any, accounting for the knowledge and skills of workers, human satisfaction, etc. etc.

Design-science revolution is the best way of improving mankind's situation. We should focus not on weaponry but on "livingry", which are tools to expand our ability to support life. We have sufficient resources to live abundantly

Political & economic control is usually expected to improve the human situation. When political leaders have different opinions about how a country (or world) ought to be managed, they resort to producing weaponry for war. Most leaders (and their followers) have a scarcity mentality based on the belief that "there is not enough for us all, so we have to compete for the insufficient amounts of our resources". I believe it is this mentality that breeds fear and feuding.
Global problems are best solved "through total democratic society's becoming thoroughly and comprehensively self-educated ... sort out and put those problems into order of importance for solution in respect to the most fundamental principles governing humanity's survival and enjoyment of life on Earth" (Critical Path, p. 266). And a complementary quote, from the same book, "do things that you see need to be done, and that no one else seems to see need to be done" (p. xxxviii).

Two of the most urgent world problems, in my mind, are pollution and ignorance-produced fear.
Global problems don't seem to be "owned" by anyone, and are addressed by only a few, poorly funded organizations with little power to produce changes. The 100+ nations each focus on their own problems, and are not investing much on our common problems such as global warming, ozone-layer depletion, deforestation, AIDS, hunger, etc.


And a second response from the same question..




Good question.

Among others, David Icke has given us a good picture of how the system of control might be working. This information is all 'of the brain'.
I think now he is trying to show us a way out, through Consciousness, as we are more than just a brain.
What does he actually mean by this Consciousness?

When information is falling like seed on unprepared ground, it might end up in fear, anger or the feeling of being personally attacked.
That all depends on the energy level on which the receiver is vibrating at that moment, the element Earth, Water or Fire. Only from the vibration level of Air (where Heart resides) and higher (Ether, Sound and Light), the information will probably be understood with discernment, creativity and in full awareness (consciousness) so it can be transformed into something fruitful.

I think David Icke is telling us that the truth about breaking free of our enslavement is twofold ..... we'll probably have to do OUR part as well.


Wow tht description is great!...tht would be most helpful to any individual to have the ability to rise above the muck, so to speak..

i believe consciousness has the ability to do Amazing things...

However it would b magnanimous :) if complete release from this "environment" is possible and an individual accomplished such a feat, then tht in turn would set everything else off as well--meaning WE would all benefit from this..not just joe smoe got it down and now lives in timbucktoo.

[Bo Atkinson]

Delight: I have let go of practically all paranoia so I can feel fully...the Universe is benevolent and I am at the right place time and experience for me who is the beloved of light.....

The friendly universe concept with just a few bad apples, would seem the major case here. Well, except that a bad apple is squished over us humans, until we can wipe it off our face. Cheers to dropping fears.


CD7 Is this wht u r referring to?
http://mark_archuleta.tripod.com/Comprehensivism.html
Comprehensivists' Beliefs and Methods
Typical Cultural Beliefs and Methods

Yes, in general, except that Synergetics and "Design Science" are the official titles, concerning the building of a better world, (according to the founder, decades ago, Bucky Fuller was his name). To my knowledge, he never commented on the rabbit hole, but rather he scientifically engineered the abundance paradigm and rejected the fear mongering of the scarcity paradigm.



observer: ...one must synthesize the evidence gleaned from Dr. Trower, and Robert Duncan to reach an hyperdimensional conclusion - not an alien conclusion.

Observer, I still wonder if 'dimensionality' is well defined in sciences.... I was just reading Eric Dollards take, to the effect there is really only one dimension, (in his aether-electrical writing) and the one single dimension is 'space'. I have kinda wondered about that too. So i prefer to think of 'hyperdimensionality' as some specific band or coded modulation in the electromagnetic spectrum.

Why humans lack access to other frequency bands or codes is simply because single bands or single codes can be a full plate. Enough foods to eat there for ages.

In case some other-world frequency bands do feed into our spectrum... then IMO... This could be a promised disclosure process.... I just wonder about evidence issues. I also wonder if new bands might open up to receiver-worthy humans.

Here's a random fit for the chem-trail scenario, that of retarding human awareness, by shielding effects of the white-out. Keep humans out of touch with a friendly universe. Keep the fear intense, if they can.)

[observer]

"Observer, I still wonder if 'dimensionality' is well defined in sciences.... I was just reading Eric Dollards take, to the effect there is really only one dimension, (in his aether-electrical writing) and the one single dimension is 'space'. I have kinda wondered about that too. So i prefer to think of 'hyperdimensionality' as some specific band or coded modulation in the electromagnetic spectrum."


The phenomenon of ritualistic invocation dates back to the Dawn of Man. One can find records of ritual designed to summon the materialization of spirit forces strewn throughout the historic record. These summoned energies are coming from some place outside of our perception, and when summoned, their presence is very real.

One might also note that the records from antiquity indicate multiple Heavens. Many of these theologies make the claim of twelve heavens. Within certain braches of physics there are mathematic calculations for up to ten universes. All of this reporting indicates there are multiple dimensions outside of this particular reality

One can name the place these energies come from anything one wishes. I would suggest they come from outside the Quantum Field/Astral Plane.

[lookbeyond]

In my experience, prayer can result in accessability to other frequency bands.I have had this happen in my life,it could be called a vision and was a benevolent response-lb

[Beren]

Arthur Clark once stated that any sufficiently high technology is indistinguishable from magic.
With that in mind we can see that to us here and now many ET or Extra dimensional stuff is like magic.

But they utilize their knowledge of how electric universe works with plasma fields and usage of light band frequencies which we are still to find out.

I understand observer's concern about entities or spiritual forces. But not all are evil or selfish.

[observer]

My concern, Beren is for the ones with evil intent, because the evidence - from antiquity to the present - indicates those Dark Forces to be in control, here within this particular reality.

Take, for instance, the Holy Bible as a perfect example of what I'm speaking.

Those whom were called the Nazarene Essenes, those from whom the Jesus Story, and Christianity itself emerged, denounced the God of the Old Testament as being "The Devil". Yet, following a period of nearly four hundred years after the alleged Jesus figure walked, the Roman Empire had manipulated the Nazarene Story into a religion that had Jesus as the living incarnate of God-Jehovah, that very god the Nazarenes considered to be the Devil.

The book that was created spawned the Roman Religion known as Catholicism which transformed the Roman Empire into the Holy Roman Empire - one of the darkest forms of Mass Control alive on the planet today. And, all the subsequent Christian Religions that have emerged since the formation of The Holy Roman Empire use a version of the same book.

How many millions of souls have gone to that Jehovah-Heaven where their essence was most likely consumed by this Demiurge? How much human suffering has this single book caused? Yet, a large portion of the Mass of Humanity believes every word within it to be the undisputed "word of God".

This is a textbook example of telepathic manipulation, and should serve as an example of why it is so very important for the Mass of Humanity to understand the mechanics of how the traps work.

[Bo Atkinson]

Observer: One can name the place these energies come from anything one wishes. I would suggest they come from outside the Quantum Field/Astral Plane.

I think that humanity is still sorting out perceptions and comparing incomplete notes, strewn along the time track. This is an accepted form of existence. To exist within a complex network of uncertain agreements, (rules and outcomes of rules). Part of networks is communications with developments of cause and effect. The malevolent among earth's beings do seem to have special advantages over the rest of humanity. Or has some entity cheated along the way?

Why should humanity be cheated for millennia? Why should the fallen angles or what ever the names, have advantages over humanity? Outside of picking just one story line or one cosmology, i found it helpful to consider the game-condition involved. Gaming can become a workable metaphor here. Games with rules and players along a timeline. At some earlier epoch, the psychopaths got on top... A tremendous challenge is thereafter invoked. Will fair play win against foul play? How many centuries does it take?

I agree to feel outraged, except i choose sort of a drawn-out, patient, fair-play method. I use the negative energy transversely, to make it positive. Working through comprehensiveism does appeal much more to me than dirty tricks, politics, obsolescence, etc...

[observer]

In reply to those members who expressed so much opposition to the Holographic Universe Model earlier in this thread, I ask that you listen to the following Kerry Cassidy "Awake and Aware Conference" Video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3viM4X1HFqw?t=50m50s
Note: Please move the timer over to 50:50 to the beginning of where Sean David Morton begins speaking for the relevance of this video to this comment.

I attempted to locate the LA Times article that Sean David Morton is referring to, however, the LA Times website has a pay-as-you-go format. Regardless, if the scientist at CERN are subscribing to a Holographic Universe Model, who among the members have more scientific credentials to reject this Theory - as was the case earlier in this thread.

[Delight]

This is off topic a bit but I watched the whole docu of David Icke at Wembly.
He has a rant in the middle geared towards those who are working in the "system"...such as soldiers, bankers etc.
lately I had my house phone internet turned off as I refuse to work in anything I don't agree in at the moment... I recognize that could change but for now ANYTHING even remotely related to illness I do not support.

This turn off has really worked to my advantage as I come to a local coffee shop and use the internet and then cannot hear the news at all.

I am a very fortunate person at the moment because I was able to sell some property and have a breather. But this does not solve "what to do" in life.
The bias I hold about "what all this is about" gets more pronounced.

I really believe having felt what I call " a Presence" that we are asked to delve ever deeper into our own voice. It seems to me that I am at the moment very supported to drop all the overlay of stuff. But what is necxt is so unknown that without the Presence I feel and the belief that I am being personally assissted to accomplish "?????" I would NOT have the courage to have dropped the details of how I have always "lived" in the system.

This is something I feel VERY strongly about... that there is a larger net holding me. I actually believe today that THIS is the "UNHACKED" hologram that Divine created to experience trust and cooperation as equals for Lovers to grow. maggie

[observer]

For further evidence from a stellar researcher in the field of hyperdimensional manipulation of reality, David Icke, please review what he says in the following video regarding the nature of an Holographic Universe:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2pG7iPZOvE

(Please move the timer over to the 20 minute; 30 second mark for the relevance of David's remarks.)

The fact of the mater is, I could find a plethora of scientist and researchers who subscribe to the holographic Universe Model. Any attempt to minimize the evidence available for this Quantum Theory is nothing more than an attempt to derail the intentions of this thread.

The evidence is out there, nit-picking individual presentations is not productive to an over-all understanding of the concept.

[observer]

My sole purpose for posting on this website is to show the evidence that this particular reality is a feeding operation for a race of hyperdimensional entities.

With every comment I make, I attempt to show the evidence of such.

This information that Bill has released, goes further to document what I suggest is an hyper-dimensional farming operation.

It has been going-on since the Dawn of Man. As soon as Humanity begins to figure it all out, the entire operation is 'plowed-under' and begun again.

They are very clever at what they do....

I have to politely! note that I personally completely disagree with this statement, but since words tend to be observed! depending on a subjective! reality, I will keep them to myself. For further explanation I can point to an 11 page thread where I found almost 0 proof that this statement is correct. And I will not go into further argument or debate on the matter. If anyone is interested in instating fear or demagogy, that should be kept as a side note, not a full-on statement.
[....snip]

The above comments appeared in another thread, and I am bringing this discussion here into this "What Controls the Hologram" Thread where it belongs.

Many of the members see this focus on Hyperdimensional Reptoid Entities as some sort of fear campaign. The idea has been expressed to me in many comments on other threads, that we should focus on the Human Aspect of the Control Mechanism and stop dwelling on hyperdimensional reptiles.

Over two thousand years ago a group of Gnostics known as the Nazarenes collected, and eventually buried in the desert of Egypt, a library of codices and gospels (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/nag_hammadi/contents.htm). These were the documents that were deemed heretical by the Roman Empire (Catholic) Church. They told of entities that existed in the spirit world that they called Archons.

These concepts were eradicated from history and wiped from the Consciousness of Humanity.

In contemporary understanding, the "spirit world" can be described as nothing more than an hyperdimensional level of existence.

Within the understanding of those earliest Gnostic Christian there were two forms of Archons.


One form appeared much like an embryo infant.
The other took the form of a reptile.

In our understanding today, most of us are aware of what are known as the Greys, and the Reptilian Aliens.

It has also been suggested by many researchers that several species of Grey Aliens are biological robots working for the Reptoids.

Using terminology consistent with contemporary understanding is what I focus upon in my comments. Drawing attention to the hyperdimensional aspect of the Control Mechanism is foundational to putting an end to it. Taking the focus off the hyperdimensional aspect and applying that focus only on the human aspect, i.e. the global elite, will only further the protection of the source problem.

Nowhere are my comments intended to induce fear, or appear hostile. Fear is the result of a lack of understanding.

After spending my entire adult life researching the metaphysical aspects of human history, I have come to the conclusion this particular reality is a feeding operation. This conclusion did not come to me in the spur of the moment. It was the result of a careful consideration of many abstract trails of evidence - a connecting of the dots to construct a much bigger picture.

This is my own personal conclusion. I don't expect many to subscribe to what I have reported. I make the report so that some among us can see and understand what and how our eternal souls are imprisons within the matrix of this particular reality.

Any member of this website is free to disagree with this conclusion. Characterizing my comments as "fear-mongering", or "hostile" does not benefit the spirit of understanding in which these comments are intended.

For the few members who are inclined to follow the links offered as evidence and do the research on their own, I offer the following two videos as further evidence to a control mechanism operation behind the smoke-and-mirrors of this holographic reality:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2gho7rIIC4

If you haven't the patience to listen to the entire video, I ask you at least listen to the first 18 minutes.

And for further vindication for what I said in the other thread regarding 'soul harvesting', I ask you to listen to this older John Lear/Art Bell interview:

https://archive.org/details/ArtBell-CoastToCoastAm-03.21.04-JohnLear-Revelations

The discussions regarding the real purpose of the Moon begin around the 19 minute mark.
Please pay particular attention to what John says at the 33 min; 30 sec. mark.

It should be understood, that what John refers to as an "experiment" in this interview could also be considered a farming operation when one includes the contemporary understanding of how our energies are being harvested.

It's all a matter of looking at all the available evidence.

[chocolate]

The 'hostile' comes from the private message that included not only me, but also other members and also moderators.

For the rest I will keep my opinion to myself.
I feel a bit embarrassed even to think about the way your message was structured, considering all allusions.

Edited to add:
Some of us do read lots of threads, with lots of information, but at a point one must be careful where one puts which comments.

Don't misunderstand me, I read your entire thread before mentioning it, and also the thread Bill started about Mary Magdalene, and the one Houman started about the Archons/Horus Ra. Not to mention everything Truman Cash has written and said.

This is going to be my one and only post in your thread, and I ask for forgiveness for the personal component. Patience is a virtue, sometimes, I know.

[observer]

Let's stop beating around the bush chocolate.

Here is the private message I sent to you, for everyone to read:


Blessings Chocolate,

I'm answering your comment here in Private Message, because I won't dignify what you said on the public forum.

First, allow me to address an issue raised by ulli in another thread.

For anyone concerned, I have been directing this issue to every administration team all the way back to Richard and Celine. From every MOD that was ever addressed, the best response I ever got was from Fredkc. Many others, including Ilie, Paul, have heard my complaint - nothing has ever been done.

This is the problem, I work a full-time job. It takes many hours of research to put each of the comments I make together - complete with references. The work of many members, doing serious research, is being driven right off the Main Board with trivia and drivel - endless comments of no probative value.

I have suggested to the Administration, in the past, that a separate board should be used for Social Networking. Chat Room-Like Chatter, and Social Networking should have a separate room on a website about "Blending Science and Spirituality". That mandate reads to me as a place to gather evidence.

With regard to what you said about "an 11 page thread where I found almost 0 proof", allow me to suggest that you follow some of the links found on that particular thread. I might also add, both Amzer Zo, and Paul did everything they possibly could to derail the direction of that thread. I finally gave-up because of lack of interest.

Most of the members seem interested only in Social Networking, few really want to do any serious research.

Just in the event I am wrong, and you, or any of your Social Networking Friends are actually interested in finding real evidence, perhaps you would like to visit this Thread and spend some quality time getting to the foundations of this particular reality.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post797931

Wishing you Love.... for Eternity.... observer

P.S. Feel free to share this Private Message with any member you might care to.

Please, show me where in the text of that message that I was "hostile".

And, please, any MOD or other concerned individual that may have found that private message "hostile", show me where.

***add text***
It is cross linked in Bill's thread, chocolate. (see chocolate's comment below)
I took it out of that thread because it was off-topic to that thread. Your original comment was about this "What Controls The Hologram"
Thread. That's why your comment was addressed here.

[chocolate]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/60lqyvqteb29y5h/Screenshot%202014-02-25%2023.15.03.png this is a screen grab I just made.
I will not turn this into a private discussion.
If anyone wants to spend time reading and thinking about it it is fine by me.
I am okay with the situation, but I will not comment much further.
I actually found this message as the biggest unpleasant surprise during my whole stay on the forum, all things considered, especially the love part of the bottom compared with the main issue outlined in the text.

And I just wondered, how is this relevant to what you are discussing here? Because if that is a way to start a conversation on the main subject of the thread, that is one strange approach, especially when it comes to me as a person.

My comment belongs in Bill's thread, and if you read it carefully pared to Bill's initial post, you will see why it belongs there. Here it is just a way to start a conversation.

Cheers.

[observer]

I'm bumping the last part of comment #210 because some very relevant evidence is contained within that comment. It was stepped on by some irrelevant off topic comments that need no further attention.



[....snip]

For the few members who are inclined to follow the links offered as evidence and do the research on their own, I offer the following two videos as further evidence to a control mechanism operation behind the smoke-and-mirrors of this holographic reality:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2gho7rIIC4

If you haven't the patience to listen to the entire video, I ask you at least listen to the first 18 minutes.

And for further vindication for what I said in the other thread regarding 'soul harvesting', I ask you to listen to this older John Lear/Art Bell interview:

https://archive.org/details/ArtBell-CoastToCoastAm-03.21.04-JohnLear-Revelations

The discussions regarding the real purpose of the Moon begin around the 19 minute mark.
Please pay particular attention to what John says at the 33 min; 30 sec. mark.

It should be understood, that what John refers to as an "experiment" in this interview could also be considered a farming operation when one includes the contemporary understanding of how our energies are being harvested.

It's all a matter of looking at all the available evidence.

[giovonni]

Greetings ...

Note this is not meant as an intrusion or intervention , but a friendly and neutral sharing of opinion ..

Observer ~ your work and contributions here have not gone unnoticed nor unappreciated. i agree some threads are much more important in content than others. i personally would like to see this considered by the administration more often ... Say by such items (topic threads) added to the Priority Thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/forumdisplay.php?109-Priority-Threads) column section. i would hope some kind of review team could be implemented (considered) for such possibilities with member suggestions and feedback considered.

Chocolate ~ You and Observer are both intuitive sensitive types... But with no doubt you both (currently) seem to be mirroring each other... Who knows really why ... it is what it is ... neither good or bad ... Being a sensitive type myself, i can relate to all this and just suggest let it go.

i would hope there will always be interest in both the serious research and the social here on the forum ... For it goes hand and hand ~ perhaps as you both should consider doing in this matter.

Love to you Both !

[heyokah]

snip

And for further vindication for what I said in the other thread regarding 'soul harvesting', I ask you to listen to this older John Lear/Art Bell interview:

https://archive.org/details/ArtBell-CoastToCoastAm-03.21.04-JohnLear-Revelations

The discussions regarding the real purpose of the Moon begin around the 19 minute mark.
Please pay particular attention to what John says at the 33 min; 30 sec. mark.

It should be understood, that what John refers to as an "experiment" in this interview could also be considered a farming operation when one includes the contemporary understanding of how our energies are being harvested.

It's all a matter of looking at all the available evidence.

Thank you observer. This is a very interesting interview.

Here are the comments from John Lear. He was talking with Art Bell.


* Mankind is an alien controlled experiment. All religions were created by the aliens to give us a set of rules and regulations to live by so that we wouldn't hurt ourselves.

* The secret government knows about this experiment but is hiding it from us.

* This experiment has something to do with the soul. The aliens refer to us as containers. There is a cube on the Moon with an antenna. The antenna sends and receives souls.

* If someone dies an unscheduled death the antenna doesn't pick up their soul and the resulting energy remains on Earth as a ghost.

* When there is a major disaster like 911 the aliens send down giant soul collectors to recover the souls.

* Increase in homosexuality is caused by the cube placing male souls in female bodies and vice versa. This is either by design or there is a fault with the cube.

* Mariners are called 'lost souls' because if you die underwater the aliens can't retrieve the soul through water of any depth.

* There are 38 levels above top secret. The top level is Majestic 12. The US President does not hold the highest level of secrecy.

* Our Moon was towed here and placed in orbit around the Earth by a very large machine. There was a time in the recorded history of man when the Earth had no Moon, and also a time when the Earth had two Moons.

* The Moon has an atmosphere which contains clouds.

* The Moon does not revolve which proves it is artificial.

* The US will not go back to the Moon. Any other country trying to get to the Moon will fail.

* US astronauts went to the Moon, saw all the alien machinery and structures and were told to keep silent about it by NASA.

* Some of the film footage of the Apollo Moon landings were faked.

* John Lear disagrees with Richard C. Hoagland's idea that some secret group is tampering with signals to the Mars rovers. He says it is NASA itself that is doing the tampering.

* NASA knows that Venus is a normal planet just like Earth. Venus has beings that are similar to us.

* We already have bases on the Moon and Mars but for anyone to go there it is a one way trip because they can't risk anyone coming back and revealing this information.

* NASA knows there are spaceships in the rings of Saturn.

* If mankind gets too close to discovering the experiment it will be cancelled and started all over again. A sort of cleansing that happens on Earth every 25,000 years.

* There are two forms of gravity. Gravity A works on an atomic scale. Gravity B is the type that holds us on the Earth and holds the Earth in orbit around the Sun.

* Gravity is instantaneous. We use a gravity phone to talk to the grey aliens who live 1,000 light years away.

* Over 1,500 alien abductions occur each day in the US.

* The Yellow Book is a government record of all alien crash retrievals.


http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/aspie/trueorfalse/johnlear.html

[Finefeather]

Here are the comments from John Lear. He was talking with Art Bell.


* Mankind is an alien controlled experiment. All religions were created by the aliens to give us a set of rules and regulations to live by so that we wouldn't hurt ourselves.

* The secret government knows about this experiment but is hiding it from us.

* This experiment has something to do with the soul. The aliens refer to us as containers. There is a cube on the Moon with an antenna. The antenna sends and receives souls.

* If someone dies an unscheduled death the antenna doesn't pick up their soul and the resulting energy remains on Earth as a ghost.

* When there is a major disaster like 911 the aliens send down giant soul collectors to recover the souls.

* Increase in homosexuality is caused by the cube placing male souls in female bodies and vice versa. This is either by design or there is a fault with the cube.

* Mariners are called 'lost souls' because if you die underwater the aliens can't retrieve the soul through water of any depth.

* There are 38 levels above top secret. The top level is Majestic 12. The US President does not hold the highest level of secrecy.

* Our Moon was towed here and placed in orbit around the Earth by a very large machine. There was a time in the recorded history of man when the Earth had no Moon, and also a time when the Earth had two Moons.

* The Moon has an atmosphere which contains clouds.

* The Moon does not revolve which proves it is artificial.

* The US will not go back to the Moon. Any other country trying to get to the Moon will fail.

* US astronauts went to the Moon, saw all the alien machinery and structures and were told to keep silent about it by NASA.

* Some of the film footage of the Apollo Moon landings were faked.

* John Lear disagrees with Richard C. Hoagland's idea that some secret group is tampering with signals to the Mars rovers. He says it is NASA itself that is doing the tampering.

* NASA knows that Venus is a normal planet just like Earth. Venus has beings that are similar to us.

* We already have bases on the Moon and Mars but for anyone to go there it is a one way trip because they can't risk anyone coming back and revealing this information.

* NASA knows there are spaceships in the rings of Saturn.

* If mankind gets too close to discovering the experiment it will be cancelled and started all over again. A sort of cleansing that happens on Earth every 25,000 years.

* There are two forms of gravity. Gravity A works on an atomic scale. Gravity B is the type that holds us on the Earth and holds the Earth in orbit around the Sun.

* Gravity is instantaneous. We use a gravity phone to talk to the grey aliens who live 1,000 light years away.

* Over 1,500 alien abductions occur each day in the US.

* The Yellow Book is a government record of all alien crash retrievals.


http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/aspie/trueorfalse/johnlear.html
Well thank you heyokah for the summary...I would certainly not be able to listen to all this non sense myself.

Anyone who believes that these are all true statements deserves to be controlled by whoever they think controls us.

John Lear states...according to your summary...for example, that "The Moon does not revolve which proves it is artificial."
Well news for him...it does rotate...http://www.universetoday.com/19699/does-the-moon-rotate/
I am surprised he cannot even get that right...all alternate thinkers should know this...so IMO, with a few exceptions, most of his statements are very suspect.

And then these are almost laughable...

* This experiment has something to do with the soul. The aliens refer to us as containers. There is a cube on the Moon with an antenna. The antenna sends and receives souls.

* If someone dies an unscheduled death the antenna doesn't pick up their soul and the resulting energy remains on Earth as a ghost.

* When there is a major disaster like 911 the aliens send down giant soul collectors to recover the souls.

What a great pity we have to be subjected to such utter rubbish by people whom many think are the 'knowers' of things they just have no idea about.

[Finefeather]

Then we have to listen to poor old David Ike who is such a confused man IMO.
I happen to be very fond of him for his work in exposing works of conspiracy and corruption but he should stick to that and leave the higher realm out of his ramblings.

We are as a result convinced that the earth and it's inhabitants are just a hologram controlled by some evil aliens with a great big play station in their backyard.
The only resemblance that there is to life and a hologram, is that it is all energy and nothing is solid...but that is where it ends.
Every objective manifestation in the Cosmos is caused by monads...from inside...in various states of consciousness...there is no projection of manifestation as ignorant 'hologram theorists' claim.

Then we have the John Lear story about souls been collected and captured...true non sense...
When we die we don't go anywhere we just, discard the body, like a moth, and change our view from physical to a higher level depending on our state of consciousness.

Here is a very good video I saw recently from the Monroe Institute and...dear observer...this is very credible institute, who's current head was once in charge of remote viewing for the US Government.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IT3f2p5YA0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EpGCy1z8R0

[Agape]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EpGCy1z8R0

Very 'neat' Finefeather , thanks for posting the above .

I can only confirm what he says from my own experience , especially the one in Bodhgaya 2002 that I did not judge as NDE ( though after 4 hours spent out of this human continuum it was probably somewhere near to it ) but on coming back to this human side of existence, I saw exactly how relative ( in true sense of physics ) is what it /we experience here . Whatever impression and experience we seem to have of this human space and time .. was a snap of events that all fulfilled some kind of rather singular mission and it's not quite easy to pinpoint the target/s of the mission,
it could well be ..'saving that stray dog on corner which in turn helps to save human civilisation',

because from the broader perspective , the broader and much more substantial and physically encompassing reality of who we are, the intelligence of our actions here is justified in different way than what it seems to be from within ( the human sense of perception ).
All I saw as 'this human experience' was like a very fast dream, very little of it felt 'mine truly' , more like a roller coaster ride with most events being totally insignificant yet , there was a distinct meaning to our 'presence' here , as total, as intervention to this particular human sub-reality .

Whatever is beyond that and where we come from and where we wake up 'after' is actually much more important .


But that's again... talking from the other side of stream ...not ;)


:angel:

[Flash]

Your talking about a "god" of the alternative media in John Lear here Finefeather. To me, it is fine that you give us your views of his speech, it is needed. I always thought that this one in particular was spreading some false information, even if other info correlated with other researchers.. However, do expect some quite drastic answers from some members.

And as you say, and also David Icke says, there has been so much corruption all over and false information given that we do not know whom we can trust anymore. And much info was given in good conscience by those misleading unwillingly, having themselves been lead in the wrong direction. I am myself inclined into these scientific or semi-scientific looks at the world and it is at times spooky if we want a good story. A whole cosmogony of beings interacting in weird ways lol.

Also, whatever is brought in about aliens is always Under a mind that is the actual human consciousness, interpreted with it. So yes, we may be misled by whom we are at the present moment as well.

You do present us a spiritual evolution point of view, which is great and needed to keep a balance and thanks for that Ray.


Here is a very good video I saw recently from the Monroe Institute and...dear observer...this is very credible institute, who's current head was once in charge of remote viewing for the US Government.


In the alternative conspiracy media/forums, the fact that the head of the Monroe Institute has a head who was working for the US Government will make him suspicious because he was working for the secretive groups of the government. This is catch 22 Ray, doom if you do, doom if you don't. lol

[Finefeather]

In the alternative conspiracy media/forums, the fact that the head of the Monroe Institute has a head who was working for the US Government will make him suspicious because he was working for the secretive groups of the government. This is catch 22 Ray, doom if you do, doom if you don't. lol
This is what I consider as the narrow mind of the conspiracy theorists...each is what he/she is by association...not by utterance...and so the biggest problem IMO is that we tend to come to conclusions when we really do not know the truth.
There is a saying..."Ignorance begets confidence more than knowledge". This means that the less we know the more we are inclined to make rapid unfounded conclusions...the more we know the more we realise just how little we know.

What good is knowledge if we do not enter into the lions den and attempt to tame it by right thinking and right actions...even if it leads to great pain and the ultimate end of a little life on earth. He who dares wins :)

Love to you
Ray

[observer]

[....snip]

Thank you heyokah for finding and posting these highlights from the John Lear interview that were linked in comment #210 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=801700&viewfull=1#post801700).

Since it is nearly impossible to break-through the density of rigidly constructed paradigms with mere words, I will reiterate what was said in that comment:


"It should be understood, that what John refers to as an "experiment" in this interview could also be considered a farming operation when one includes the contemporary understanding of how our energies are being harvested."

Those among us who have such strong opinions regarding their personal subjective experiences are unwilling to look at the evidence when it stares them in the face. This is exactly how artificial telepathic thought implants work.... and who among the members are willing to argue this is not an advanced technology which has been in use by the global elite for at the last 25 years?

....And who is to say this is not the same technology used on Humanity since the Dawn of Man?

There is every possibility that John is present on the internet to serve disinformation. The classification of what is going-on from the Moon as an "experiment" in itself is a service to disinformation. When one looks at all the dots of the Big Picture, one very real possibility is that this is all a Farming Operation.

Few are willing to speak of this, yet considering the historic record, it has been occurring since Homo Sapiens Sapiens first appeared on the planet.

[observer]

[....snip]

Well thank you heyokah for the summary...I would certainly not be able to listen to all this non sense myself.

Anyone who believes that these are all true statements deserves to be controlled by whoever they think controls us.

John Lear states...according to your summary...for example, that "The Moon does not revolve which proves it is artificial."
Well news for him...it does rotate...http://www.universetoday.com/19699/does-the-moon-rotate/
I am surprised he cannot even get that right...all alternate thinkers should know this...so IMO, with a few exceptions, most of his statements are very suspect.- (emphasis by observer)

And then these are almost laughable...

* This experiment has something to do with the soul. The aliens refer to us as containers. There is a cube on the Moon with an antenna. The antenna sends and receives souls.

* If someone dies an unscheduled death the antenna doesn't pick up their soul and the resulting energy remains on Earth as a ghost.

* When there is a major disaster like 911 the aliens send down giant soul collectors to recover the souls.

What a great pity we have to be subjected to such utter rubbish by people whom many think are the 'knowers' of things they just have no idea about.

Yes Ray, we are all aware the moon's rotation is geosynchronous. Which only goes further to document the evidence that something extremely anomalous is going-on there. Don't you also find it fascinating, that our Moon is the only planetary satilite in the Known Universe that acts in this fashion?

.... and these very subjective opinions are based on what, Ray? Allow me to speculate: from your travels in the astral, right?

What I find fascinating regarding your comments is the fact that you never offer any hard evidence showing conclusively that your interpretations are accurate. They are purely your own opinions.

And you continuously come into my threads and challenge the evidence I offer with only your subjective interpretations from your dream world. Your statement alone shows me you never really look at the evidence offered in this thread. How many of the videos I have offered, or the links to text I have given have you really studied?

You roam about the website and offer your conclusions as the gospel fact and suggest everyone should spend their time blowing soap bubbles at the butterflies, while tripping down a gentle slope of wild flowers, because everything is going to be just fine.... that there is a bright new dawn, just over the horizon.

I would suggest this is exactly the mantra used by the Control Mechanism since the Dawn of Man. It's a template that has repeated itself thought-out history. And those who believe as you have bought it hook-line-and-sinker.

Have you ever seen me in any of those Channeling Threads, attempting to derail the topic?

Did you ever wonder why the military uses an entire team of clairvoyants to 'target' a subject in a remote viewing session? Think about it Ray?

As a post script to the videos you have offered, they are very intuitive. This particular reality is nothing but a dream - a dream being controlled for the sole purpose of Harvesting the Essence of Soul.

[Flash]

You roam about the website and offer your conclusions as the gospel fact and suggest everyone should spend their time blowing soap bubbles at the butterflies, while tripping down a gentle slope of wild flowers, because everything is going to be just fine.... that there is a bright new dawn, just over the horizon.

This is really undeserved Observer. Ray has never attacked you like this, in a direct fashion directly about your own beliefs or personality. What he did is saying Lear is talking bs. He never accused you of being bs.

This is my opinion: direct attacks like this are what destroy forums and take away credibility for the conspiracy milieu.

Not my opinion: there is about 10 moons behaving like ours in the solar system alone. The research and scientific findings are there. I have read them before and I have no taste to redo the research, no time today.

Usually I appreciate your post Oberver. Could they please remain balanced.

Thanks

[observer]

Thank you Flash, but I disagree.

In each comment Ray makes he uses words like, "narrow mindedness", "unfounded conclusions", "non sense", "utter rubbish", "such a confused man", "his ramblings", "ignorant 'hologram theorists", "true non sense", need I go-on, Flash?

Ray took off the gloves, not I.

Thank you for clearing-up that issue regarding geosynchronicity. It's hardly relevant, however.

[observer]

Shattering paradigms is never an easy job. One rarely wins friends.


The agenda I am suggesting in my comments is not popular.
The evidence suggests this agenda has been going-on for the history of Humanity.
Few individuals are willing to give-up the warm-and-fuzzy dream of their ideologies.

Sometimes a good slap in the face is necessary.

[heyokah]

What good is knowledge if we do not enter into the lions den and attempt to tame it by right thinking and right actions...even if it leads to great pain and the ultimate end of a little life on earth. He who dares wins :)


He who dares wins ! OK

Especially for you Ray :)

http://thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/menu.html

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/menu.html#Soul

[Sunny-side-up]

Who programs and controls our dumb-downed DNA?

[Finefeather]

Especially for you Ray :)

http://thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/menu.html

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/menu.html#Soul

I take it that you were trying to show me the error of my ways, and so decided to link me to John Lear's website...which I am quite familiar with...and show me a picture of the "Soul catcher"? :)

If you take the time to study the photo below which is presented on that site you will notice just how well it shows the "Soul catcher" at work...right? and just how could I be so ignorant not to be convinced that it exists.

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/01archives/Soul_Catcher_Shuttle.htm

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/01archives/Soul_Catcher_Shuttle_files/sts98plume_nasa_1200.jpg

Now if you care to run this image...which was taken on Feb, 8th 2001...through some software it says that this image was modified 6 years after the event took place...in 2006...and if you zoom into the 'moon' you will notice that it was photo shopped very nicely to line up with the natural shadow cast by the plume of the shuttle exhaust. You can actually clearly see the little piece which was added to the original image...even I can see it with my 68 year old eyes.

2506225063

It seems again that some of us here are been led up the garden path with stories which they cannot seem to realise are false.

Now I would ask...what is John Lear doing with a fake picture on his website?
IMO he is clearly trying to steer his audience or he is just plain ignorant of these facts...and I use the word 'ignorant' in this context...which means I do not think he is totally ignorant...dear observer :)

Take care now
Ray

[observer]

To Ray,

I have no idea what photo heyokah was attempting to show you. An X inside of a box is all that shows where the image should appear in your reply to her.

Please be advised, I had nothing to do with her making comment #227 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=802529&viewfull=1#post802529).

I do find it quite convenient the photo you are referring to is not visible in your comment, only a thumbnail portion of it with some sort of incriminating dialogue next to the image.

I have heard both Richard Hoagland and John Lear explain in interviews that many of the images they use are photoshopped - to enhance both contrast and brightness. Additionally, many researchers will testify that NASA photoshops their own images.

Without the photo you are pointing to, there is no way to further investigate your accusations.


****

Additionally, "dear Ray", the words I highlighted in my reply #225 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56913-What-controls-the-hologram&p=802479&viewfull=1#post802479) to Flash were used in several of your previous comments in a totally different context than you used the word "ignorant" In your (above) comment #229.

Are you here only to derail this thread? Again?

If you think you will be permitted to use condescending adjectives in a derogatory way, than be prepared for me to call you to task. This is my thread.

[Finefeather]

Thank you Flash, but I disagree.

In each comment Ray makes he uses words like, "narrow mindedness", "unfounded conclusions", "non sense", "utter rubbish", "such a confused man", "his ramblings", "ignorant 'hologram theorists", "true non sense", need I go-on, Flash?

Ray took off the gloves, not I.

No dear observer I never took off my gloves...I never had them on in the first place :)
All these words were used in context and never referred to the complete person...and are valid English words. Call a spade a spade.
If someone is ignorant in some field, and we all are...why can I not express my opinion as I see it...there is no one on this planet who is omniscient...including you and I.

Ignorant = Lacks knowledge in some field...no one is truly ignorant, we all have some knowledge and we all lack some knowledge.
Nonsense = spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense.
Unfounded = lacks objective proof.
narrow minded = biased or prejudiced.
rubbish = worthless material.
confused = muddled thinking.
ramblings = lengthy and digressive speeches.

I do not see any of these words as been derogatory in any way...I am merely expressing how I interpret their statement.
These may be strong words for some to accept but they are valid IMO.

Take care now
Ray

[Finefeather]

To Ray,

I have no idea what photo heyokah was attempting to show you. An X inside of a box is all that shows where the image should appear in your reply to her.
I have added the link to the page and the image is at the bottom of that page.


I do find it quite convenient the photo you are referring to is not visible in your comment, only a thumbnail portion of it with some sort of incriminating dialogue next to the image.
It worked perfectly well when I posted it so try to be a little more understanding...I have added the link now as well.


I have heard both Richard Hoagland and John Lear explain in interviews that many of the images they use are photoshopped - to enhance both contrast and brightness. Additionally, many researchers will testify that NASA photoshops their own images.
I am not talking about enhancing them I am talking about blatant alteration of an image to change it's meaning or use it to prove or support some fiction posed as truth.


Are you here only to derail this thread? Again?
Sorry I never realised I did that in the first place...I must go re read how I did that, for future :) but No...I am not here to derail your thread...just here to add my opinion, as is usual, on a forum where controversy is been discussed.


If you think you will be permitted to use condescending adjectives in a derogatory way, than be prepared for me to call you to task. This is my thread.
Adjectives are only condescending when the reader feels threatened by their use...and their, alive and well, ego has the better end of their judgement of themselves.
I am more than willing to admit that I am ignorant in most things...and have realised long ago just how little I know.

Take care...and try to let a little humour into your life...love would also be nice :) and stop always thinking that you are been attacked personally...lighten up...you'll be surprised how your life will change.

Anyway judging from our ages we might not have long to go to get first hand experience of the nightmare you say is true :)

With Love...
Ray

[heyokah]

I take it that you were trying to show me the error of my ways, and so decided to link me to John Lear's website...which I am quite familiar with...and show me a picture of the "Soul catcher"? :)

LOL.... No Ray. Because Who Am I to show you, or anybody else, the 'error of his ways' (your words). Besides, what are errors other than possibilities to grow.

No, I just wanted to annoy you a bit with your 'favorite researcher' John Lear.... and maybe lead you to this link (http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/01archives/Soul_Catcher_Moon.htm),*add or maybe this (http://www.newphysics.se/archives/old-archive/free-energy/Bearden/Interview-in-Megabrain-Report.txt). (but please spare me your 'debunking'. Just bear with it in silence)
Yes, I admit, I was poking you a little....:jester:

No Ray, you don't appear to me to be a person who would doubt his own believes for a minute (we met before) and I know you like to correct people and get your right. (You must have been a schoolteacher in your working days, like I was).

Yes, I'm a heyokah, provoking from time to time. And to be honest, I expected this kind of answer. You did not disappoint me. :)

Just try to let a little humor into your life, Ray !


We're all looking for Truth, right? And information keeps coming.
You found Your Truth, but most of us are still carefully examining all different things possible.

Be well Ray and,...... take care now LOL

Ho, mitakuye oyasin !

Heyokah

http://www.planetdeb.net/spirit/heyokah.htm

[Agape]

Applying Quantum Theory To Understanding This Particular Reality


FOUNDATIONAL UNDERSTANDING:

In the world of quantum physics, matter does not exist unless it is being observed.

In other words, the smallest particles of an atom: protons, electrons, neutrons, etc. (quanta) only exist as matter when they are being observed. This fact of quantum physics has been shown to be a reproducible phenomenon in countless variations of a physics experiment known as The Double-Slit Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment), or Young's Interference Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_interference_experiment).

This Double-Slit Experiment has been re-tested in numerous physics labs all over the planet, always with the same results - objective results. The conclusions of this experiment are, just as previously stated, "matter does not exist unless it is being observed".

Otherwise, in the quantum world, matter exists only as an Infinite Potential Of Wave Form, in what quantum physicists know as the Quantum Field.

In this particular reality the interpreter of this "Infinite Potential Of Wave Form" in question is the human brain. The human brain has been shown to be nothing more than an electromagnetic "wave form" receiver. Quantum Physics demonstrates to us that, without the human brain there to observe, there would be nothing more than an Infinite Potential Of Wave Form - the Quantum Field.

In the philosophy of Metaphysics this Quantum Field can be related to what has been historically called, "The Astral Plane". There are many individual interpretations of how the Astral Plane is constructed: levels, divisions, sub-levels, etc. (subjective) The evidential trail from Quantum Physics indicates there is only an Infinite Potential Of Wave Form beyond our human brain's perception. (objective) Anything lying outside of the Quantum Field (hyperdimensionally) is nothing more than a spiritually derived "belief system". (subjective)

Each and every individual's experience within this particular reality is a wholly subjective interpretation of the Quantum Field Of Infinite Potential. The fundamental concept of "what is real" is skewed by each individual's perception of this Infinite Potential Of Wave Form, or converting electromagnetic wave signals into matter.

One very popular model within the world of quantum physics is that this particular reality (universe) is nothing more than an holographic projection. In other words, we are individually and collectively dwelling within a holographic movie. This theory has been popularized by Michael Talbot in his book, The Holographic Universe (http://www.amazon.com/Holographic-Universe-Revolutionary-Theory-Reality/dp/0062014102).

It is also being theorized that this holographic projection is being controlled by "something" on the other side of the Quantum Field (outside of this particular reality). Otherwise, each individual's interpretation of the holographic projection would be different from any other's interpretation. This is simply not the case. In comparing apples to apples, everyone perceives an apple in a similar fashion, as is the case with all perceptions of elemental atomic structure within this particular reality.

Therefore, the evidence leads us to the conclusion: there is something hyperdimensionally controlling this holographic projection - down to the smallest possible detail, i.e. the quanta, or atomic structure itself.

There are many variants of this holographic universe model. If one studies the creation mythology from antiquity, one would have to agree, there is an overwhelming amount of material indicating this "something" takes the form of a reptilian species in an overwhelming number of incidents - leading one to conclude something reptilian is in control of the holographic projector.

Many of the members come into these forums and give their personal testimonies of individual Astral Experiences in an effort to somehow prove this sort of evidence to be true.

It is not my intention to discredit any particular personal testimony as true or false. Each and every individual is operating on a 'program' unique to that individual. Rather, my intention is to show the difference between the scientific method and faith-based (theological/spiritual) methods of discovery.

So, in an effort to bring some understanding to this true v. false debate, it is important for the members to come to a common understanding regarding subjective and objective evidence. It is impossible to determine - from an objective point of reference - facts of this particular reality, from pages of personal testimonies.

There is no conclusive evidence (objective) to indicate the Astral Experiences being reported by many members are anything more than clever manipulations of telepathic thoughts. The historic record concerning the reliable nature of telepathic thoughts (prophecy) is riddled with false declarations - from the most remote antiquity up until the present time.

If something outside of this reality is controlling structure, down to the smallest quantum particle making-up an atom, through the quantum field and into this particular reality, than it isn't a far stretch to assume even individual telepathic thought is being manipulated within this holographic projection.

Therefore, from the evidence being offered by quantum physics, no one within this holographic movie can escape the hologram. This leads to the conclusion that there is, in fact, a matrix outside of the Quantum Field (Astral Plane) from which one cannot go beyond.

The following is a re-editing of a popular image that can be found in the reference links (below).







Seeing there's some confusion going on here ..among us , mortals and immortals ;)

There's no point in trying to deny all of the above as 'capital nonsense' because it would automatically result in still greater misunderstanding and the diamond of truth would be forever lost ,

I can but try to point out a mistake or two for you Observer ,

in the way of how your researchers try to expose their theories on the subject . Hopefully , you will understand at the end how every truth and reality - speaking of physically defined reality - is relative .

First of all, the theory proposed above by you and other related researchers, implies 'singularity' of dimensional holo-centrism ,
in another words, you propose a theory where each lower dimension is a pattern projected and controlled by higher dimension and so forth .
From strictly physical point of view , such a cascade does exist but we are not talking of intelligently controlled 'living universe' here which is one part of what your current 'universal science' misses profoundly ,

the distinction between laws and parallel definitions of 'living ' and 'non-living' Universes .

All your current scientific struggle and explanations are largely focused on attempt to capture 'singularity' of theory and understanding ,

so also you automatically try to apply the principle of singularity on all phenomena without due discrimination of their particular nature ,
it's the way you've been taught about nature after all ..as in Life = chemistry = physics ,
your 'universal science' misses any more sophisticated definition of Life then it being a chance product of chain of chemical reactions producing intelligent pattern and evolving in chance directions .

Don't you think it's rather 'poor' . As Seth Shostak once jokingly implied, human theories about life so far suggest that we maybe not more than strand of universal 'infection' on the face of this convoluted universe .

Allow me to tell you that was a bad joke .

Back to your presumption of singularity that would imply a cascade of intelligently organised patterns starting up from the highest intelligence ..here, you seem to be in favour of 'flawed intelligence at the top' which is justified by the fact that our lives down here are equally flawed ,

the theory is old as mankind .. presuming 'Godhead' and His structure of Thrones and Archangels and Archons and who ever can be named at the top, organising the HQ of heavens and everything bellow ,

you can find this theory of all those old paintings, from China to Middle East to Mesoamerica , to Africa , each in its own flavour .

The 'Boss' at the top looks sometimes as a Dragon, or faceless creature .. which signifies the fact that those higher from us intelligencies can not be observed very well ( so much for your nickname the Observer ) , they can't be calculated by our simple count or even one of our human super-computers and they're altogether difficult to relate to, physically or emotionally .

You can't have 'functioning relationship' with an absolute, other than I AM, so YOU ARE.

Even if the Being / Creature/ Intelligence , levels beyond your/his capability to connect to yourself, representative of macro- and microcosm respectively and faraway relatives is not quite an absolute ,
he/she/it maybe still further away than your observation/calculation capabilities extend .


No, that's not the end of explanation but I'll try to be short . And bio-logical . Except for the Source of Life in the Universe ... that is a biological entity and supremely creative intelligence of its own that acts as accomplished singularity that virtually 'spills out' manifested forms of life or their seed forms ,

everything manifested, every specie no matter how advanced, exist in certain number , certain order .. and hierarchy to each other which does not imply that they were ever meant to rule each others lives .

If living Universe was organised the way your ( and many other peoples ) theory proposes , from top to bottom, projected and controlled, we'd be living in pretty orderly, organised, controlled and somewhat , forgive me, boring Universe .


By the fact that we recognise plenty ( almost infinitum ) of chaos everywhere in and around us we are also able to ascertain our own identity = sovereign intelligence capable of sorting that chaos .

Now , back to the theory proposed by you .. since you could continue to suggest that we are but 'failed experiment' who continues to create flawed world because of the 'flawed intelligence' projected on-to us ( humans ).

Look at the biodiversity of animal species on earth as an example , and then , look at the diversity of human genome . Human groups scattered all over the planet, and how different they are one from another .

Unless you spent most of your life living in one isolated habitat you have to realise that the diversity is rather huge .

Now imagine how much are you, yourself , a seeming overlord of this little planet in relation to some of its tiny creatures capable of controlling their lives .

Take ants as an example . Are you able to project your ideas to an ant colony and organise their lives and environment ?
To a deal yes but only in certain circumstances, the best example would be the ant lab on International Space Station ;) Totally isolated for its own and others safety, destined for study of effects of microgravity and how it affects behaviour , reproduction cycle and natural metabolism of creatures in such specific environment .
Of course, any other lab with isolated ant colony is also good example .

But otherwise ? Do you think you're able to impose your will on all ants on the planet ?

You can relocate some of their ant hills, kick to them, destroy them , protect your houses from their invasion or study them in your garden but for most ... you have to let them roam free .
It's their planet more than yours .

So it goes with millions of other tiny creatures here - to whom you are the 'big Draco' .


And we're in the pickle again, because when I say 'you' , neither I mean 'you as a person', neither I can imply that 'you ' are the representative of mankind,

as mentioned previously , the biodiversity of human genome too is enormous .


Now what makes you think that such a bio-diversity stops at you and that more evolved and intelligent races, species and entities are one like the other ,
or capable of total control of other species ?

Too many sci-fi movies, I suggest .. but even there , they usually tend to leave their feet on ground .

Every specie is characterised by number of its members, not by any One of them. Nor any species is absolutely organised or organisable by its 'super-member' even in cases like insect colonies or others who depend on their 'queens' , 'kings' or other progenitors, it's in the very nature of Life to be a sovereign intelligence capable of organising physical environment, to some level .

Now .. an attempt for conclusion from me .

I do not automatically deny that there are more advanced intelligencies , some of whom you call extraterrestrial who try to interact and intervene in evolution of this planet .
The failure of understanding them comes partially from natural discrepancy , biological, physical and psychological , between you and you .

Both ( all ) parties posses some common features but more that creates uncommon effects and discrepancies.
In every such instance between two species, it's inevitable that the one with more organised intelligence pattern is perceived as the 'controller' , such as it is between 'you and ants' .

You can't avoid seeing 'them' as controllers, even if they don't try to control you but it's more likely the natural occurrence that they sometimes do and try . They are not sinister or evil for doing it, they're just more evolved and organised .

You have every right to protest against any form of control imposed from outside , especially while its nature is questionable ..

however, and first of all you need to use your own sovereign intelligence to prove yourself right .

Such as between any of 'you' and ant colony , the operation is not organised and controlled on some sort of 'grand scale' , it's rather many small islands formed around individual entities who happened to land here in the past - and your ancestors still remember it - or are here till now,
and silently survive among you.

Unfortunately, your modern folklore contains too many irrational stories and explanations on how it is truly .


All I can suggest, to you and any other reader is this : check your own physical and psychological environment for influences exerted upon you ,
one by one to see .. who is 'controlling ' isles of your reality .

No matter these people are your 'best friends' , neutral and distant figures or 'worst enemies' , your politicians, doctors, teachers , students ..
you have every right to question their influence on your life and decide whether your sovereign opinion and intelligence serves you better .

You may find silent but dominant and very powerful influences, sneaky ones that control your family bounds , loving ones that do not manipulate you but protect you.


My best experience with truly benevolent beings , human or non human is that they advice but do not manipulate you to do anything what you truly do not wish for by yourself . I judge benevolence fairly in those terms, of freedom of realisation of ..personal freedom.
In hand that comes when you need it the most .

















:croc:;)

[Finefeather]

Agape...your above post 234 was one of the best posts I have had the pleasure to read on this forum...
Thank you and love
Ray

[chocolate]

One of the reasons I did not get involved in this thread, despite the obvious tries few days ago, was because I am still way too volatile (I mean I am still a kid) to manage and find the required patience and understanding the way Agape has.

I do understand how we all can make assumptions, that may prove wrong in the long run, but at least I try to stay neutral in my opinion. May be, sometimes, I repeat it too many times unnecessary, but I am not perfect, and I think, neither are you (Observer and ...).

I see the point of view of the thread, and why the desire, but if it was as simple as having this one thread, the whole forum thing we have here, apart from this thread, would have become pointless.
The truth, and the proof, is in everything and in every one of us, technically and metaphorically speaking. I don't use we-are-all-one, because we are not that, and we haven't been meant to be that. I see us more as connected, and together we all make the picture/answer/proof valid.

And here, my patience (to write) is gone.

I hope we still can walk together as one unified 'thing', although on some days I have my doubts.

Thanks Agape.

[observer]

Setting The Record Straight:





Especially for you Ray :)

http://thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/menu.html

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/menu.html#Soul

I take it that you were trying to show me the error of my ways, and so decided to link me to John Lear's website...which I am quite familiar with...and show me a picture of the "Soul catcher"? :)

If you take the time to study the photo below which is presented on that site you will notice just how well it shows the "Soul catcher" at work...right? and just how could I be so ignorant not to be convinced that it exists.

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/01archives/Soul_Catcher_Shuttle.htm

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/01archives/Soul_Catcher_Shuttle_files/sts98plume_nasa_1200.jpg

Now if you care to run this image...which was taken on Feb, 8th 2001...through some software it says that this image was modified 6 years after the event took place...in 2006...and if you zoom into the 'moon' you will notice that it was photo shopped very nicely to line up with the natural shadow cast by the plume of the shuttle exhaust. You can actually clearly see the little piece which was added to the original image...even I can see it with my 68 year old eyes.

2506225063

It seems again that some of us here are been led up the garden path with stories which they cannot seem to realise are false.

Now I would ask...what is John Lear doing with a fake picture on his website?
IMO he is clearly trying to steer his audience or he is just plain ignorant of these facts...and I use the word 'ignorant' in this context...which means I do not think he is totally ignorant...dear observer :)

Take care now
Ray



I do find it quite convenient the photo you are referring to is not visible in your comment, only a thumbnail portion of it with some sort of incriminating dialogue next to the image.

Reply by Finefeater:
It worked perfectly well when I posted it so try to be a little more understanding...I have added the link now as well.


I have heard both Richard Hoagland and John Lear explain in interviews that many of the images they use are photoshopped - to enhance both contrast and brightness. Additionally, many researchers will testify that NASA photoshops their own images.


[Reply by Finefeather]
I am not talking about enhancing them I am talking about blatant alteration of an image to change it's meaning or use it to prove or support some fiction posed as truth.



So Ray, I've gone to the link that heyokah offered you and it appears that it isn't even John Lear's website from which the image in question was taken. This appears to be the summery of a letter between Rayelan Allan of www.rumormillnews.com. This summery appeared on the rumormillnews website. The photograph in question appeared on the rumornillnews website.

The only culpability Mr. Lear has with this webpage is that it summarizes a communication between John and Rayelan Allan.

So please, if you want to continue debating in this thread, get your facts straight and cease your argumentum ad hominem, the attacks are bleeding from your keyboard.

[Finefeather]

So Ray, I've gone to the link that heyokah offered you and it appears that it isn't even John Lear's website that the image in question was taken from. This appears to be the summery of a letter between Rayelan Allan of www.rumormillnews.com. This summery appeared on the rumormillnews website. The photograph in question appeared on the rumornillnews website.

The only culpability Mr. Lear has with this webpage is that it summarizes a communication between John and Rayelan Allan.

So please, if you want to continue debating in this thread, get your facts straight and cease your argumentum ad hominem, the attacks are bleeding from your keyboard.
Dear observer
If you look carefully at the exact url of this picture it clearly shows that the picture is on John Lear's website NOT rumormillnew.com...so go ahead check it now...you will find the picture at the bottom of this page...the heading is:
"Shuttle Plume Shadow Points to Moon"
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/01archives/Soul_Catcher_Shuttle.htm

Now my point was and I quote my exact words:

Now I would ask...what is John Lear doing with a fake picture on his website?

So it is on his website...it makes no difference in this case what the reason is...because he should have checked the credibility of this controversial subject before he released it on his website.
No where does he say that he agrees with it or not...so all that a casual reader can deduce...by it been so prominently displayed...is that he must have some leaning to it because he states that there is a soul catcher machine on the moon.

Is this monolith the "Soul Catcher" that John Lear and my ex-husband, Gunther Russbacher, both said was on the Moon?
source: http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/01archives/Soul_Catcher_Moon.htm

Can you see how these 2 events are easily connected? and besides they are positioned one above the other on John Lear's website.

If I had a website I would make sure what I released was credible else it might be seen by some as disinformation.

And by the way my keyboard only bleeds for the love I have for life...
Take care and some love :)
Ray

[observer]

Ray,

The page in question was written by Rayelan Allan, and linked on John Lear's website. Everything that appears on the link http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_...er_Shuttle.htm was written by Rayelan Allan, and appears on Rayelan's website.

The link to that page appears on John's website, but that doesn't mean John was responsible for manipulating some randomly selected image that Rayelan Allan was responsible for posting.

The link appears on John Lear's website because it is a link to a communication between he and Rayelan.

Are you suggesting that John Lear has the ability to go onto Rayelan Allan's website and edit things off her pages that don't meet your standards of evidence?

[heyokah]

I don't know what the problem is Ray.
There are two photo's in the article and a lot of text regarding these photos.

Here is some of it......
-
In all of the pictures, the shuttle itself is barely visible, to the left of the power line pole, and about even with the top of the pole. I have cropped it out of this view to focus on two other aspects of the image. 

All of the pictures show the dark "beam" that seems to eminate from the bottom of the moon, which is near the bottom of the picture. On the original, though, you can see that the beam actually extends beyond the bottom of the moon.

I can only fathom three sources of light to produce this effect, not including the moon itself, since the beam is dark. I rule out the shuttle itself because it is not in line with the beam, but off the left edge of this frame. 

The sun is below the horizon to the west (behind me) so the moon can't be casting this shadow beam. Besides, it does not eminate from the entire moon, but from someplace below the moon. It seems as though there is something shining in the trail cloud itself and that another part of the trail must be producing the shadow which is only coincidentally pointing almost exactly at the moon.

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/01archives/Soul_Catcher_Shuttle.htm

[Finefeather]

Ray,

The page in question was written by Rayelan Allan, and linked on John Lear's website. Everything that appears on the link http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_...er_Shuttle.htm was written by Rayelan Allan, and appears on Rayelan's website.

The link to that page appears on John's website, but that doesn't mean John was responsible for manipulating some randomly selected image that Rayelan Allan was responsible for posting.

The link appears on John Lear's website because it is a link to a communication between he and Rayelan.

Are you suggesting that John Lear has the ability to go onto Rayelan Allan's website and edit things off her pages that don't meet your standards of evidence?
Dear observer
It seems as if you are not familiar with website pages. This is not a link to that website it is a page on John Lear's website. You can tell by the url and that he himself placed it on his website and it is in fact on his website which he...or his secretary or whoever...chose to release there...when you go to that page the url is John Lear's website...the livingmoon...if it was on the Rayelan website the url would show www.rumormillnews.com.
Yes it might...and probably was copied...but still it was a choice he, John Lear, made to include it on his website. I have written websites myself and have programmed computers for years.
If he in fact wanted to he could edit it because he owns the htm page it is written on...I am NOT saying he did this.

I will retire from your thread again, as I seem to be disrupting your mission...and apologise for any threat I may have been to you, or any of your other posters...including anyone and everyone it appears as if I have criticised.

I remain you brother and wish you well and love
Ray

[heyokah]

I will retire from your thread again, as I seem to be disrupting your mission...and apologise for any threat I may have been to you, or any of your other posters...including anyone and everyone it appears as if I have criticised.


A haiku for Ray

It was a nice try
A threat? No, more a nuisance
yet predictable

****

:focus:

[heyokah]

Please click-on the forwarding icon to review the content of araucaria's comment #6.
Thank you araucaria for your input.

Allegory is a marvelous teaching tool. Learning complex principles through the art of science fiction writing is a stimulating way of conveying often abstract concepts. By your review, I don't see, however, how one can speculate the, "breaking through a physical wall" into some imaginary projection room, when the holographic projector being discussed in this thread is hyperdimensional in nature, and therefore not beyond a material wall, per se, however separated from this particular reality behind the advanced technology of a limiting matrix.

Arthur C. Clarke, perhaps one of the greatest science fiction writers of our time, once said:

" Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

The evidence being presented within this thread would suggest the "highly advanced technology" being described is that of an hyperdimensional species with the design purpose of controlling this particular reality with a more sinister intent.

As another excellent allegory to this conclusion, may I offer the following video for the edification of the interested members:

[The link was deleted to the full length movie "They Live" because it is no longer available on YouTube]

Of course, this too is merely speculative science fiction....
[my emphasis]

I found a copy of the movie "They Live" again.
As this movie keeps disappearing from YouTube, it won't surprise me if this one will be deleted as well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNNOIoJB150