About abortion

[Frank Hewitt]

I few weeks ago i went to the anual book festival of the city of mexico and i found myself almost immediately talking with a socialist and he invited me to a conference "about the liberation of women and the emancipation of all humanity" and i was waiting for a real 4 hour conference but it was a 30 minutes conference and the rest were questions. I raised my hand and talked about abortion and how the embryo has no awareness and therefore it is not a big deal and everybody was claping at me and i sat again and listened and an old woman asked me. Are you a scientologist?

My point is that embryos are not really "people"(i dont mean humans) what do you think about this guys?

[sigma6]

What if that embryo was you, waiting to be born... that's the question. I think we as living beings, have a responsibility to cherish all things living. To really contemplate the miracle and preciousness of life in all its forms in the material world.

[Frank Hewitt]

That`s very interesting, i was wondering if this thread was violating the rules because i talked about religion, maybe i will change a few things but yeah, how do we know that the embryo has no consciousness, i forgot to mention the interview with inelia benz in wich she says that she started to inhabit the body only 30 minutes before the birth, but from the buddhist point of view everything has consciousness so theoretically even a rock is "alive", but then we can go into the realm of cruelty with animals, because i am not a human, i am inhabiting this human which is an animal and i could say "i want to make a hunger strike" but that is not what the animal wants so, in that sense the embryo is an animal who can feel pain and perpetual death, but we still struggle with the point of the rock and the fact that the simple action of walk "hurts" the floor

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

if by merit of their lack of consciousness, embryos should be denied life,
then by that logic is it okay for the ruling elite to tax us blind and perpetually bamboozle all of us,
because we lack the capacity to do anything about it?

this question raises more questions...

[Mu2143]

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[Sérénité]

I must say I'm neither for or against abortion, I believe its every woman's right to decide dependant on her circumstances, but also feel the maximum cut-off week is way too high.
I may be wrong in my facts, but I'm pretty sure its been scientifically found that a baby at 12 weeks can feel and acknowledge pain.

By 8 weeks gestation the heart is fully functioning and visible by ultra-sound.

The legal cut off for abortion here in the UK is 24 weeks, yet it has been shown time and time again, that some baby's can be born from 21 weeks and still survive.

I guess with these facts we have to question, as Tesla has mentioned above, just because this growing embryo/baby has not yet gained what we term 'full conciousness' are we as humane humans in a position to see it as any less of a human?

On a lighter note, I know of many people who are probably on a lower concious level to an embryo, yet are still classed as 'human' ;)

[Mu2143]

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[Akasha]

.........i could say "i want to make a hunger strike" but that is not what the animal wants............

Imposing a hunger strike on your own body is one thing but imposing it on another is something entirely different.

[sheme]

I sincerely hope this can throw light upon this difficult subject. Teal Scott discusses abortion in a very honest way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yanKZEKGLZw

[Mu2143]

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[Finefeather]

My point is that embryos are not really "people"(i dont mean humans) what do you think about this guys?
So if you think this human embryo is not a 'people'...would you at least consider it a potential person?...if you do...then does that not imply that you are depriving some soul of the opportunity to incarnate into a body for some purpose if you perform an abortion?

What I have experienced and seen in the astral state is that souls actually choose the potential human being they will incarnated into before it is even an embryo. In fact some souls who live as families wait excitedly for the conception of the life which they will one day inhabit. The actual union of the soul to the embryo can take place almost immediately and usually does because the soul who is about to incarnate has a decided influence on the outcome of the personality and so wants to take charge of it's new body.
Less advanced souls have less influence on the body in it's early growth stage and sort of accept what they get...but the more advanced souls are very busy bodies when it comes to this phase.

The way a soul attaches is by what is termed a physical permanent atom and it is situated in the bottom chakra...from which all growth stems...you can see this quite well if you examine a chicken egg which is unfertilized and one which is. The actual full connection of the soul to the body can vary a lot, depending on many factors...and also bear in mind that it is at this stage that the new memory starts.

The amount of control which a soul has on the new body depends on how advanced the incoming soul is.

Abortion is a real disappointment to a soul...but we should keep in mind that the person who will bear and give birth to this new body also has her own choices and circumstances in her life. Of course this should not be construed into some idea that we can or should approach life with irresponsibility and a self serving attitude.

Happy pregnancy girls :) ...oh! and thanks for what you give to humanity...love you all.
Ray

[RMorgan]

Well, this is a complex issue.

While I don´t fully agree with abortion, I think it´s relevant in some cases.

I don´t think abortion should be legalized for everyone, like you know, that 15 years old middle class teenager who got pregnant because of pure irresponsibility.

If the pregnant woman and her family have financial and emotional conditions to give that kid a good life, with good living standards and good education, then abortion should not be allowed except in extreme cases like rape.

However, if the mother has absolutely no condition to give the child a good life, I think abortion should be considered a viable option.

You know, I live in Brazil. Everyday I see homeless junkie girls with four or five small kids. Such kids, if they are boys, usually will be involved in criminal activities and die before they reach 18; If they are girls, they usually get involved in prostitution before they reach 13 and will give birth to a bunch of kids with no future perspective just like their mothers.

If you ever saw a mother holding her newborn baby while, at the same time, smoking crack, then you know what I mean. It´s one of the saddest things in the world.

If I, as a fetus, was given the opportunity to choose between living a life of total misery and getting aborted, I would choose the second option. Life is meaningless if you can´t live with dignity.

So, I believe each case is a different case, and should be judged individually.

Just my two cents anyway. I know this is a delicate subject.

[UniVive]

What about free choice to every being (spirit, soul, essence...whatever...) to come and experience that Being in whatever way it chooses. If we all truly have free will over how we come in to this (or any) existence or world, choosing the trials and challenges for which we come, who is anyone else to really dictate that free will choice or responsibility?

And I mean that from the embryo/fetus' position.

Who's to say that wanting to experience life in utero for just that amount of time is any less prevalent or amazing than someone wanting to experience 65 years? Apparently that was a situation that being needed to have and co-create for itself and all parties involved.

To think about 'abortion' or 'miscarriages' in a negative way because the embryo/fetus has a 'consciousness', and yet on the other hand assuming that conscious being doesn't have it's own free will to come AND go as it wishes like the rest of us seems to me a double standard.

It also assumes that there is a such thing as 'death'....which I am not really at all convinced of. But that's just me...

Thinking about all Life in a way that grants that life personal responsibility and integrity would have the power to change the world:)

[Eram]

What I have experiences and seen in the astral state is that souls actually choose the potential human been they will incarnated into before it is even an embryo. y

My daughter of 2 years even asked permission to be born, or it was my higher self that gave me a nudge. I'm not sure.

We weren't going to have another baby and our minds where consumed with the renovation of our home, when I walked in our garden and suddenly I had a short vision or something similar in which i saw a little girl with blond curls, that ran toward me with her arms stretched outward to give me a hug.
I discussed this with my spouse later on this ignited our wish to have another child.

It was a girl indeed, but we seriously doubted if she as going to have curls because neither of have curls, nor does our son.
Just for the last months now, it is becoming clear that she is developing curls :)

Isn't life wonderful?

[northstar]

I often hear the argument "it is better to abort a fetus than allow it to be born to an unwed teenaged mother because babies born into situations like that will suffer". I can't agree with that type of logic because I was one of those babies. My mother was a unwed teenager when she got pregnant with me. I am extremely glad some well meaning abortion advocate didn't encourage her to abort me "for my own good". I love life in general and I also love my own life. Every day when I wake up the first thoughts that go through my mind are: here I am and I am so very grateful to be alive and breathing.

I love the following quote by Don Miguel Ruiz

"You are Life passing through your body, passing through your mind, passing through your soul. Once you find that out, not with logic, not with the intellect, but because you can feel that Life - you find out that you are the force that makes the flowers open and close, that makes the hummingbird fly from flower to flower. You find out that you are in every tree, and you are in every animal, vegetable, and rock. You are that force that moves the wind and breathes through your body. The whole universe is a living being that is moved by that force, and that is what you are. You are Life."

[Finefeather]

What about free choice to every being (spirit, soul, essence...whatever...) to come and experience that Being in whatever way it chooses. If we all truly have free will over how we come in to this (or any) existence or world, choosing the trials and challenges for which we come, who is anyone else to really dictate that free will choice or responsibility?

And I mean that from the embryo/fetus' position.

Who's to say that wanting to experience life in utero for just that amount of time is any less prevalent or amazing than someone wanting to experience 65 years? Apparently that was a situation that being needed to have and co-create for itself and all parties involved.

To think about 'abortion' or 'miscarriages' in a negative way because the embryo/fetus has a 'consciousness', and yet on the other hand assuming that conscious being doesn't have it's own free will to come AND go as it wishes like the rest of us seems to me a double standard.

It also assumes that there is a such thing as 'death'....which I am not really at all convinced of. But that's just me...

Thinking about all Life in a way that grants that life personal responsibility and integrity would have the power to change the world:)
Hi UniVive...nice to see your post...thanks
Well you'r quite right...we do have free choice...to some degree...the more advanced a soul is the more it is involved in the choice and circumstances and experience of it's new life, in a new body. Be careful not to get the impression that this new life is the full consciousness and extent of the soul...it is but a tiny fragment.

The soul cannot occupy an embryo, there is nothing to 'operate' or to connect to yet...it is only when the fetus is larger that occupation is possible and even then souls don't spend much time in them as a conscious being...what would they experience...of interest...to a soul who is a multidimensional being?

I don't think anyone should think of abortion or miscarriage in a negative way unless it is an irresponsible act...do you think a Spiritual Being of Love would have the intention of causing an irresponsible action just to have the experience?
The decision to incarnate and the choice of circumstances is a serious and well thought out act, which highly evolved helpers assist with, in order to make the best use of every life we live.

The thing that most people do not quite get yet...let alone agree with...and I understand the reasons...is that sex is primarily to further the human race. It is an act of creation, which we as physical Beings get to experience, for the benefit of the human race to evolve into a race of beings who can live in harmony...we have a while to go to get there.

One thing you might consider is that not all bodies are equal and are dependent, for heightened spiritual work, on the purity of the life the parents live.

Take care
Ray

[Finefeather]

I often hear the argument "it is better to abort a fetus than allow it to be born to an unwed teenaged mother because babies born into situations like that will suffer". I can't agree with that type of logic because I was one of those babies. My mother was a unwed teenager when she got pregnant with me. I am extremely glad some well meaning abortion advocate didn't encourage her to abort me "for my own good". I love life in general and I also love my own life. Every day when I wake up the first thoughts that go through my mind are: here I am and I am so very grateful to be alive and breathing.
Hi northstar
Some of the most beautiful people I have met come from challenging and chance situations.
No reason to waste a good life
Love to you and take care
Ray

[Frank Hewitt]

The attack of demon starts in the mind by inserting
thoughts in to your mind that you think are your own and if you do NOT guard against it
then you allow something in you do not want.
This is how spiritual warfare works, just pay attension to your thoughts.

Thoughts manifest reality and what your bring in to this reality is even stronger by saying or/and writing it.

That is the power of the word.Yeah, i have already seen that in a short documentary, i havent really researched on that but sometimes stuff like that happens (the demoniac possessions), for example, only two years ago i admired hitler and genghis khan because of their military conquests and their political achievements, at that time i was publicly about population reduction and NWO stuff. Now that i am starting to awake i can see that that was not me, it was the control system manifesting through my words. That is the reason why i asked about your opinions because i don`t want to be stuck in one ideology of good and bad

[Frank Hewitt]

if by merit of their lack of consciousness, embryos should be denied life,
then by that logic is it okay for the ruling elite to tax us blind and perpetually bamboozle all of us,
because we lack the capacity to do anything about it?

this question raises more questions... That is a very interesting comment because it reminds me about this interview with bill ryan AVKjAumpjjk and he talks about the way in which they throw the information like clues and they justify what they do because we dont do anything despite having all the information absolutley in front of our faces. But again, going back to annother reply i did, everything is multidimensional so, for example you could speak with rocks (i usually speak with trees) not because you are talking with a piece of stone, but because that rock is a projection of another form of consciousness i would say an expression of tao. So all what i have said leads to nowhere at the end because i dont fully know how to determine if an abortion should be taken. To finish i want to refer to the lord of the rings the fellowship of the ring in which Frodo says "I wish bilbo had killed Golum" and Gandalf says something like "Who can decide who dies and who lives? No one is capable to know the future, something tells me that Golum still has an important role in this war, either for good or for evil"

[Frank Hewitt]

I often hear the argument "it is better to abort a fetus than allow it to be born to an unwed teenaged mother because babies born into situations like that will suffer". I can't agree with that type of logic because I was one of those babies. My mother was a unwed teenager when she got pregnant with me. I am extremely glad some well meaning abortion advocate didn't encourage her to abort me "for my own good". I love life in general and I also love my own life. Every day when I wake up the first thoughts that go through my mind are: here I am and I am so very grateful to be alive and breathing. That is a wonderful comment, i really had not think about that but i do know what you mean, There is an Anime called naruto which is about a boy who never knew his parents and everyone in his village hated him because there is a powerful demon sealed inside him, what happens with naruto is that he becomes mentally really strong, if you dont want to see al the manga or anime you just need to see the first episodes. In summary al the ideology of naruto is "Even if it is for the cost of your life, you must try to protect it with you arms. It does not matter how hard or sad is that which is important for you" (despite i have the theory that the author is a luciferian), there are many other examples of how people become stronger with pain and "a bad life", i have been through that too (not in such an extreme way), my not direct family hates me for no apparent reasons, a few years ago my best friends suddenly attacked me and my whole social life has been demolished many times, very recently i defeated my deppression and i found astonishing that despite i am not very awakened the moral, philosophical and knowledge brigde between almost everyone around me and me is huge. As i mentioned before, anyone cant jude someone because anyone is perfect, we al are expressions of the infinit consciousness as david icke calls it (i call it tao)

[UniVive]

Hi Finefeather,

Although I can't say one way or another if an embryo can completely behold the essence of 'soul'....it still has to be granted consciousness because it simply exists.
But not only does it exist, it is intelligent multi-cellular life. Because I can't relate to the happenings to, and motions of the embryo doesn't make those motions any less gratifying to that particular be-ing than my own.

With that said,
I don't necessarily believe that any action is irresponsible in the eyes of 'Creator, God...All That Is', everything, every life (no matter how short) serves a purpose given a larger perspective.

The lessons we all learn through the births and deaths of others greatly enhance our own lives and teach us many things, but the particular Be-ing always survives.....in one place or another.

[DouglasDanger]

It should be a womans choice IMHO...
Also consider....
If we truly exist as pure energy when not in the human vessle. When a vessle is pulled/ destroyed on a spiritual energy hoping to occupy and control that vessle another vessle they are compatable with will be made available to them in an instant.
An anology could go along the lines of, Womens wombs are like car dealerships, one may choose not to create/obtain a vehicle for a customer/soul to travel around in, that does not mean another woman will do the same and deny that soul/customer a vessle to move about this 3D matix in. When the body is destroyed broken beyond all repair, that does not mean the soul that occupies it is destroyed with it no matter how long the trip was that they had to travel around in it.
What is a misscarrige then but the soul rejecting the body that is provided for it?....

[Anchor]

I dont want to start a debate on channeling except to say that is where this quote is from - just focus on the idea presented here, it is quite relevant and seems to me to be quite sensible.

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/2006/2006_0401.aspx


B: T in New York would like to know, “Does abortion incur the need for karmic reparations for the mother or father?”

We are those of Q’uo, and are aware of your query, my brother.

There is no one answer to this query, my brother. And we are aware that it is a very tender subject, certainly in this instrument’s heart as well as many others. However, each entity creates an agreement with the mother. If the mother is considering abortion, then it is well for that mother to sit in mediation until it feels beyond a shadow of a doubt, subjectively speaking, that it has made contact with that being that is knocking at the door for the opportunity to incarnate.

Some entities are perfectly willing to move on and find another opportunity. Other entities have a great desire to be born to this one person and be placed into incarnation in just this way. Therefore, each case must be decided on its own merits by the woman involved and by no other source. Only that woman can make contact with that soul that is asking for incarnation and ask for permission to pass up this opportunity.

An entity who is attempting to incarnate does not want to cause its mother difficulty. Therefore, if a mother can take the time to commune with that child that is to be, it is entirely possible that there is no karma necessary to experience as a result of choosing to abort when circumstances are not opportune. The child understands as well as the mother.

However, it is well to go through this period of inquiry and communion with the child and to have a very deep and profound discussion as to whether or not that child is happy to have another opportunity with the same parent but at a later time, or with another family altogether.

There is a lot more information from LLResearch on this topic. If you like I can pull some together.

I don't have an axe to grind on this issue one way or another. The catalyst offered by the situation of having to consider abortion is a heavy one and, like every other, serves a valid purpose within the one infinite creation.

We, as a race of beings in an extremely heavy and distorted version of 3D life - the issue of abortion does not occur in 2nd Density or lower, nor does it arise in 4th density or higher. Just us here in 3rd density. We here have made it very complicated due to the incomplete grasp on how the soul is related to the mind/body and the incarnating spirit - something which I think is deliberate and designed to keep people in the thrall of the system and in fear.

If you LOVE and you intend for the best and highest outcome and you are settled within yourself, then proceed - the "judgement" of others can take a flying leap as far as I am concerned.

No fear.

Love

John..

[Finefeather]

Something to enjoy...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxvriVUk_5A

[music]

This thread may or may not have been started with honest intentions, but I have to note that the subject, and the way it is approached, have such potential for divisiveness and distraction that I have to wonder whether these are the real intentions behind the posting. I apologise if the poster is "real", as opposed to "on assignment", but would caution all members not to be sucked in to yet more distraction as we approach another energetically significant time.

Anyway, I have personal experience that says children retain in-utero memories, as probably do many here with or close to children, so the foetus is aware, end of discussion. And men, when you are the ones whose body bares the child, and is altered by the process, and whose entire life is re-directed as a result, then your views will be as valid in this debate as the views of women are. Feel free, however, to offer input as an interested observer, but try to do it without insult. Once we have strayed from love, all discussion becomes counter-productive.

[markpierre]

We choose our entrances and exits. If you hold out that bits of life are whims or weaknesses and others are divine, you've usurped God's plan with your own.
That's a crime if there is one.
Don't take anyone's opportunities to choose away from them.

There's a lot more going on than you can understand, so if you need to take a position, "I don't know what anything is for" is a good one.

If I choose to enter a body that's going to be aborted, that's nobody's business but my own. The oversoul doesn't make silly mistakes on it's own behalf. It does what it does with intent.
You as a human identity deluded by judgement might not always like what the Soul has planned. Take a pill, or trust God. Whichever your able to do.

'Life' as expressed in the world is choices. What choices I make and the consequences of them. That's how we learn and grow to human adulthood.
No juvenile human mind is qualified to judge another's choices, no matter what they are. You don't know the effect of them without experiencing them.
That's what we do. We learn all of it by being all of it. You're only responsible for yourself and your own actions and reactions. Tend to that.
Do you know what compassion is? It's indiscriminate and uncompromising or it's nothing.

It's not the consequences that are important, it's the growth derived from them.

[Warlock]

An embryo, if left unmolested, will become what?

I rest my case.

Warlock

[Lifebringer]

On this subject of such hard decision because of financial inability to provide for another mouth in a already hungry-food pantry-hate the poor world, I believe I read about a week ago a article where the soul enters the child at the 1st breath of life, and until it does, the caccoon just functions to grow the fetus and prepare it for the 1st breath/soul entering.

Something to contemplate. However after the choice to keep the child is made, and the parents are talking to the fetus, playing music, and the "choice" has been made to raise the child, I believe the soul is allowed to enter the body to bond, perhaps to experience the feeling of motherly love while inside, but the choices are made by 3 souls at the time.

The article said, when it's just a union of lust, not love, maladjusted thinking and insecurity can surround the child's mental processing.
Feelings of abandonment when there's only one parent raising and the confusion at kindergarden about a mother and father in the home. It's really a tough decision to termanate the opportunity to bring a life full term and love it, when there is no light at the end of the financial tunnel, and the world runs on money.
If you're not an aboriginal, living off the land, the doors slamming in your face to make it in life, can be loud, and hard. That's life...but what's life, if you always lack the proper environment to grow healthy minds and hearts to be productive humans of love?

Mothers think of a lot of those details when considering. If she stays with an abuser, she could have a schizophenic child, because the emotions go through it and the painful thoughts of hurt, also. IF a mother that has been abused by the father and he rapes her to make her pregnant so she can't go to work and help with bills, yet has a drunk husband, that can't pay them by themself and is ego driven and insecure, so he takes it out on her?

I am a domestic violence survivor, and know a little about it.
Sometimes a mother's love is not to have the child beaten out., for a monster like that is filled with jealousy of her love for the child and will hurt the child to hurt her twice as hard.

Phychotic episodes of pain from a boyfriend or wayward boyfriend with NO protection on the prowl with HIV still killing, is not a good choice for a parent anyway. More thoughts from the other side. Prochoice like God.

[Realeyes]

FineFeather - Thank you for your posts on this thread; I found them very insightful and deep.

Sweet dreams in your far travels wherever that may be in Elsewhere....:wizard:

[Finefeather]

I don't necessarily believe that any action is irresponsible in the eyes of 'Creator, God...All That Is', everything, every life (no matter how short) serves a purpose given a larger perspective.

The lessons we all learn through the births and deaths of others greatly enhance our own lives and teach us many things, but the particular Be-ing always survives.....in one place or another.
We are the eyes of the 'Creator'...and so...to relate or equate irresponsibility with serving a purpose is like the old saying "Cutting off your nose to spite your face" a needless and often self-destructive action to try to solve a problem. Would you prefer to learn something from constant irresponsible mistaken actions?...or from responsible slow thought out steps to success?

The irresponsibility I was referring to, with regard to abortion, is not taking steps to protect yourself from falling pregnant whilst indulging in sexual activities as a self serving pastime.
Sexual energy is a powerful force that few can properly control so we should approach it, and use it, wisely.

Rape and abuse of woman is also a direct result of this powerful force...I see this everyday in my country...which has the largest incidence of rape and abuse of woman in the world...were a woman ends up with no control or say in her right to determine her own future...is this an irresponsible act by humans...or an act of God?
The millions of children in Africa who are starving to death and were born as a result of rape and abuse of woman...is this an irresponsible act by humans...or an act of God?
Just wondering...

Take care
Ray

[Mu2143]

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