The Vegetarian Myth

[dynamo]

The Vegetarian Myth

Michael R Eades, MD.
proteinpower.com
Wed, 12 Aug 2009 06:22 CDT

http://www.sott.net/image/image/s3/69352/medium/Veg_myth_blog.jpg
© Unknown
Before I get into a discussion of the absolutely phenomenal book you see pictured at the right, I've got a few disclosures to make. First, I'm not much of a believer in the notion of man-made global warming or climate change (as they now call it since temperatures have been constantly falling instead of rising). I'm a denier, in the pejorative term used by those who are believers.

Second, I'm not particularly pro-feminist. And I certainly don't hang around with any self-proclaimed radical feminists. I have a wife who is smarter than I am, who is more talented than I am, and who, pound for pound, is probably a better athlete than I am, and I'm not bad. (In my defense, I can read much, much faster than she, but, she has better comprehension.) I long ago gave up the idea (if I ever really considered it seriously) that men are superior to women in any ways other than brute strength. Having said that, however, I do believe that men are better suited to certain endeavors than woman and vice verse, but that doesn't mean either men or women should be denied the opportunity to give whatever it is they want to do a whirl just because of their sex. I guess I consider myself an egalitarian. But from what I've seen of radical feminists, I'm not sure that I would count myself a big fan.

Given the above, you wouldn't think I would enjoy and recommend a book written by a self-proclaimed radical feminist who is obviously a believer in global warming and the impending end of the earth as we know it. I wouldn't think so, either. Not my cup of tea even when it is sort of preaching to the choir.

But I can tell you that Lierre Keith's book is beyond fantastic. It is easily the best book I've read since Mistakes Were Made, maybe even better. Everyone should read this book, vegetarian and non-vegetarian alike. If you're a radical feminist, you should read this book; if you're a male chauvinist, you should read this book; if you have children, especially female children, you should read this book; if you are a young woman (or man) you should read this book; if you love animals, you should read this book; if you hate vegetarians, you should read this book; if you are contemplating the vegetarian way of life, you should definitely read this book; if you have a vegetarian friend or family member, you should read this book and so should your friend. As MD said after she read it, "everyone who eats should read this book."

Anyone who has ever read a book on writing has come across the hackneyed piece of advice to cut open a vein and bleed on the page. Lierre Keith, the author of this book, has come closer to literally doing that than almost any writer I've ever read. Not only does her passion for her subject bleed through in almost every sentence, she is a superb lyrical prose stylist. My book is dog eared, underlined and annotated from front to back - I can't remember anything I've read that has contained so many terrific lines.

In fact The Vegetarian Myth is filled with so many good quotes (most by the author but some from other authors) that I was reminded of the old joke about the redneck who went to see a performance of Hamlet. When the show let out, someone asked him what he thought of it. Replied he: It wasn't nothin' but a whole bunch of quotes all strung together. As you'll see when I 'quote' them below, The Vegetarian Myth contains quotable lines and paragraphs at about the same rate Hamlet does.

Ms. Keith was a practicing vegetarian (vegan) for twenty years, driven by her passion for kindness and justice for all creatures. She couldn't bear the thought of even killing a garden slug, or, for that matter, even removing a garden slug from her garden to a place where something or someone else might kill it. Her years of compassionate avoidance of any foods of animal origin cost her her health. Her story of coming to grips with the realization that whatever she ate came as a consequence of some living being's having to die form the matrix onto which her narrative hangs.

You can read the first 14 manuscript pages of the book on the author's website. I have quoted from these 14 pages liberally below.

The introduction to The Vegetarian Myth explores Ms. Keith's rationale for writing such a book, a book that, given her years of walking the vegetarian walk, must have been incredibly difficult to write. She says as much with her first sentence.

She ponders the idea of factory farming, which she loathes, and the misbegotten idea that most people hold (not most readers of this blog, but most of the people in the world) that grains are good, not only for people, but for many animals as well. And the common misconception that agriculture, the growing of annual grains and plants, is a wonderful, kind, sustainable activity.
This misunderstanding is born of ignorance, an ignorance that runs the length and breadth of the vegetarian myth, through the nature of agriculture and ending in the nature of life. We are urban industrialists, and we don't know the origins of our food. This includes vegetarians, despite their claims to the truth. It included me, too, for twenty years. Anyone who ate meat was in denial; only I had faced the facts. Certainly, most people who consume factory-farmed meat have never asked what died and how it died. But frankly, neither have most vegetarians.

The truth is that agriculture is the most destructive thing humans have done to the planet, and more of the same won't save us. The truth is that agriculture requires the wholesale destruction of entire ecosystems. The truth is also that life isn't possible without death, that no matter what you eat, someone has to die to feed you.

I want a full accounting, an accounting that goes way beyond what's dead on your plate. I'm asking about everything that died in the process, everything that was killed to get that food onto your plate. That's the more radical question, and it's the only question that will produce the truth. How many rivers were dammed and drained, how many prairies plowed and forests pulled down, how much topsoil turned to dust and blown into ghosts? I want to know about all the species - not just the individuals, but the entire species - the chinook, the bison, the grasshopper sparrows, the grey wolves. And I want more than just the number of dead and gone. I want them back.
After she had seen the error of her ways as a vegan and had been eating meat for two years, for reasons unknown to her, the author continued to surf the same vegan websites and message boards she had for years. Until she read one post that was so bizarre that she finally realized the large intellectual gap that had widened between her rationale thinking and the cult like thinking of, well, a cult. It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.
But one post marked a turning point. A vegan flushed out his idea to keep animals from being killed - not by humans, but by other animals. Someone should build a fence down the middle of the Serengeti, and divide the predators from the prey. Killing is wrong and no animals should ever have to die, so the big cats and wild canines would go on one side, while the wildebeests and zebras would live on the other. He knew the carnivores would be okay because they didn't need to be carnivores. That was a lie the meat industry told. He'd seen his dog eat grass: therefore, dogs could live on grass.

No one objected. In fact, others chimed in. My cat eats grass, too, one woman added, all enthusiasm. So does mine! someone else posted. Everyone agreed that fencing was the solution to animal death.

Note well that the site for this liberatory project was Africa. No one mentioned the North American prairie, where carnivores and ruminants alike have been extirpated for the annual grains that vegetarians embrace. But I'll return to that in Chapter 3.

I knew enough to know that this was insane. But no one else on the message board could see anything wrong with the scheme. So, on the theory that many readers lack the knowledge to judge this plan, I'm going to walk you through this.

Carnivores cannot survive on cellulose. They may on occasion eat grass, but they use it medicinally, usually as a purgative to clear their digestive tracts of parasites. Ruminants, on the other hand, have evolved to eat grass. They have a rumen (hence, ruminant), the first in a series of multiple stomachs that acts as a fermentative vat. What's actually happening inside a cow or a zebra is that bacteria eat the grass, and the animals eat the bacteria.

Lions and hyenas and humans don't have a ruminant's digestive system. Literally from our teeth to our rectums we are designed for meat. We have no mechanism to digest cellulose.

So on the carnivore side of the fence, starvation will take every animal. Some will last longer than others, and those some will end their days as cannibals. The scavengers will have a Fat Tuesday party, but when the bones are picked clean, they'll starve as well. The graveyard won't end there. Without grazers to eat the grass, the land will eventually turn to desert.

Why? Because without grazers to literally level the playing field, the perennial plants mature, and shade out the basal growth point at the plant's base. In a brittle environment like the Serengeti, decay is mostly physical (weathering) and chemical (oxidative), not bacterial and biological as in a moist environment. In fact, the ruminants take over most of the biological functions of soil by digesting the cellulose and returning the nutrients, once again available, in the form of urine and feces.

But without ruminants, the plant matter will pile up, reducing growth, and begin killing the plants. The bare earth is now exposed to wind, sun, and rain, the minerals leech away, and the soil structure is destroyed. In our attempt to save animals, we've killed everything.

On the ruminant side of the fence, the wildebeests and friends will reproduce as effectively as ever. But without the check of predators, there will quickly be more grazers than grass. The animals will outstrip their food source, eat the plants down to the ground, and then starve to death, leaving behind a seriously degraded landscape.

The lesson here is obvious, though it is profound enough to inspire a religion: we need to be eaten as much as we need to eat. The grazers need their daily cellulose, but the grass also needs the animals. It needs the manure, with its nitrogen, minerals, and bacteria; it needs the mechanical check of grazing activity; and it needs the resources stored in animal bodies and freed up by degraders when animals die.

The grass and the grazers need each other as much as predators and prey. These are not one-way relationships, not arrangements of dominance and subordination. We aren't exploiting each other by eating. We are only taking turns.

That was my last visit to the vegan message boards. I realized then that people so deeply ignorant of the nature of life, with its mineral cycle and carbon trade, its balance points around an ancient circle of producers, consumers, and degraders, weren't going to be able to guide me or, indeed, make any useful decisions about sustainable human culture. By turning from adult knowledge, the knowledge that death is embedded in every creature's sustenance, from bacteria to grizzly bears, they would never be able to feed the emotional and spiritual hunger that ached in me from accepting that knowledge. Maybe in the end this book is an attempt to soothe that ache myself.
How anyone who can read these 14 pages and not purchase and read this book is beyond me.

After the introduction which deals with why the author wrote the book, The Vegetarian Myth is divided into four sections: Moral Vegetarians, Political Vegetarians, Nutritional Vegetarians, and To Save the World.

The first three of these sections are the author's in-depth refutations of the moral, political and nutritional arguments that vegetarians are constantly putting forth. She does a masterful job.

In the Moral Vegetarians chapter, the author addresses the moral issue of killing animals for our own food. She beautifully makes her case by cutting to the heart of the matter:
What separates me from vegetarians isn't ethics or commitment. It's information.
And while she was in her 20-year trek in the vegetarian wilderness, she shielded herself from information as most cultists do:
I was on the side of righteousness, and like any fundamentalist, I could only stay there by avoiding information.
She finally realized the truth about agriculture; she figured out that the amber waves of grain are as death dealing as any slaughterhouse.
And agriculture isn't quite a war because the forests and wetlands and prairies, the rain, the soil, the air, can't fight back. Agriculture is really more like ethnic cleansing, wiping out the indigenous dwellers so the invaders can take the land. It's biotic cleansing, biocide. ... It is not non-violent. It is not sustainable. And every bite of food is laden with death.

There is no place left for the buffalo to roam. There's only corn, wheat, and soy. About the only animals that escaped the biotic cleansing of the agriculturalists are small animals like mice and rabbits, and billions of them are killed by the harvesting equipment every year. Unless you're out there with a scythe, don't forget to add them to the death toll of your vegetarian meal. They count, and they died for your dinner...

Soil, species, rivers. That's the death in your food. Agriculture is carnivorous: what it eats is ecosystems, and it swallows them whole.
In Political Vegetarians she refutes the politics (predominantly liberal) of the vegetarian movement and describes the dark side of political meddling in our ecosystem approved of in the main by PETA and other vegetarian groups. She follows the money.
Rice, wheat, corn - the annual grains that vegetarians want the world to eat - are thirsty enough to drink whole rivers.

The result has been an unending river of corn, drowning our arteries and our insulin receptors, our rural communities, and poor subsistence economies the world over. The corn comes at a huge environmental toll: there's a half gallon of oil in every bushel. And it's essentially a massive transfer of money from the US taxpayer to the giant grain cartels, who are able to command the price of grain to be lower than the cost of production, with all of us making up the difference - five billion dollars in subsidies for corn alone, straight into the pockets of Cargill and Monsanto.
Nutritional Vegetarians is about the nutritional inadequacies of a vegetarian and especially a vegan diet. And she does an absolute bang up job of laying out the rationale for following a no-grain, low-carb diet.

I have a disclosure to make here. Much of the information in this chapter is based on Protein Power and The Protein Power LifePlan. MD and I are listed in the acknowledgments, but I swear I didn't know this until I bought the book. We aren't the only ones, but there are plenty of quotes from us in this chapter. Gary Taubes, Malcolm Kendrick and (dare I say it) Anthony Colpo are quoted liberally as well. I would have loved this book just as much if we had never been quoted.

Ms Keith has made a few minor innocuous errors in this chapter, but, all in all, she has done a tremendous job of synthesizing the scientific information into an easy to read, informative format.

The Nutritional Vegetarians section isn't just about the science of why vegetarianism is bad and meat eating is good, it gets into the nutritional politics (as opposed to the vegetarian politics in the previous section) as well. Ms Keith shows how we got to where we are by the nutritional strong arming by the McGovern committee back in the late 1970s. George McGovern (a senator from a grain-producing state) and his cronies basically set the nutritional standards under which we are still oppressed. They have been a disaster, as some scientists at the time predicted they would be.
And some scientists knew ahead of time that they would be. Phil Handler, the president of hte National Academy of Scientists asked Congress, "What right has the federal government to propose that the American people conduct a vast nutritional experiment, with themselves as subjects, on the strength of so very little evidence that it will do them any good?" Dr. Pete Ahrens, an expert on cholesterol metabolism, told the McGovern committee that the effects of a low-fat diet weren't a scientific matter but "a betting matter."

It's twenty-five years later and we aren't winning this bet. Each US American now eats sixty pounds more grain per annum and thirty pounds more cheap sugars, mostly from corn. [Is it any wonder we're all fat?]

The result, Dietary Goals for Americans, set in motion a cast sea change in the public's beliefs and behaviors. ... Dietary Goals was a predictable victory in a war that started ten thousand years ago. What really won were those annual grasses that had long since turned humans into mercenaries against the rest of the planet. We would now enshrine them like demi-gods, those whole grains and their sweet, opiate seductions, believing in their power to bestow health and long life, even while they slowly ate us alive.
I don't think I've ever read a book review that was positive from beginning to end, and this one is no exception. Based on the many comments I've gotten on this blog and my response to them, I'm sure many of you will find my main objection surprising. There is too much politics in the book. Not nutritional politics, but feminist politics.

I know, I know, I let my libertarian leanings come through in all kinds of blog posts and comment answers, but there is a difference. My blog is just that - a weblog of things I find interesting or informative. And it's free. I don't particularly like to pay for a book (and I paid full price for this one plus shipping) on a given subject then be beaten over the head with a political viewpoint. I guarantee you that our new book has zero politics in it. And if people bought our book expecting to learn about getting rid of their middle-aged middles and were fed a generous dose of my politics mixed in with the information, I would expect them to be flamed.

To give the author her due in this matter, the vegetarian ideology that had her in its grasp for 20 years was intertwined with her feminist politics, so a bit of said politics are necessary to describe how she was so taken in for so long. But I think she went a little overboard with it.

And, I think the last section of the book - To Save the World - is the weakest part of the book. The author makes several recommendations, all of which (save one) are, in my opinion totally unrealistic. But I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions after you've read the book.

I've read that when people are asked to recall what they remember of something they read, they tend to remember the first thing in the piece and the last thing. Most of the middle melds into a vague memory of what the article was about. I certainly don't want people to remember this last negative part I wrote and let it dissuade them from reading this book. The good parts of the book so far outweigh the not-so-good parts that there is really no contest.

At a time when PETA and other vegetarian groups are mobilizing and ramping up their activity levels, a book such as this one bringing sanity to the debate is more important than ever. And don't think these groups aren't becoming more active. In the past, PETA and PETAphiles pretty much devoted their educational efforts toward the idea that eating animals was cruel. Now they are starting to make the case that a vegetarian diet will solve the obesity epidemic. Take a look at this billboard in Jacksonville, Florida.

http://www.sott.net/image/image/s3/69356/large/whales.jpg
© 2009 Media Boy Todd

If you find this sign annoying, buy The Vegetarian Myth and do your part to fight back. And if you have or know anyone with a daughter who is contemplating going vegetarian (young females are the most common victims), please make this book available. It could be the most important thing you ever do for the long-term mental and physical health of a young woman.

If you've made it this far in this long review, take a couple of minutes and watch this YouTube of Lierre Keith at a book event; she's as fascinating to listen to as she is to read.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oOsLOotrRw

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Any thoughts on vegan diets out there?
Thanks,
dynamo.

[Prodigal Son]

Any thoughts on vegan diets out there?
Thanks,
dynamo.

Thanks for the post and book recommendation. I have a pile of books in my reading queue already but I will fit this one in.

I think that if adults want to be vegetarians that's great, for the most part I have lost my desire for all meats aside from chicken. A lot of it had to do with seeing a video on meat.com showing how the animals are treated that just totally made me sick.

However, those same adults should not be risking their children for the sake of their own beliefs or feelings. It has come to my attention recently that quite a few infants and toddlers have been either getting very sick or dying because of vegan diets. That's where we must draw the line.

Baby Death By Veganism (http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet-veganbaby.html)

[Cristian]

from http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/06/12/18601536.php

Lierre Keith's Elaborate, Self-Congratulatory Excuse for Abandoning Veganism at BT Books



In the broadest strokes, the book is a fanciful, nostalgic ode to a time long gone, a time when people hunted and gathered all of their food, a time before humankind developed agriculture. The cover art of the book itself speaks to this with its prehistoric drawings of various animals. To her credit, though, Lierre Keith does correctly call out that modern agriculture, or agribusiness, is incredibly devastating to our natural environment.

Where she runs off the rails is with just about everything else in the book -- when she confuses her own psychology with that of every vegan or vegetarian (veg*n), when she commits numerous logical errors in support of her anti-vegan position, and when she inaccurately attempts to discredit facts about the destructiveness of today's American meat-centric diet based on small samples of data from a handful of existing niche farms that she unscientifically extrapolates to a distant hypothetical future.

When one considers that the vast majority of agriculture in the U.S. today is centered around meat and dairy production -- that the majority of vegetable matter raised in this country is grown to support livestock so that we can have plentiful meat -- one might wonder why Lierre Keith, in her quest to reduce the ecological harm of modern agriculture, decided to come after the veg*ns first, especially as they represent likely less than 5% of the population. And therein lies the answer to many of the book's flaws. Keith comes at veg*ns so directly because she claims that she was once a 20-year vegan herself before she found her new religion. Apparently, she was unable to maintain her health during that time by following an informed and complete vegan diet. So in attacking veg*ns, she is distancing herself from her former self. She is rationalizing and excusing her decision to consume the flesh of animals again. That is the essence of why she has written the book and she admits as much in its intro, although not in those exact words.

It is this process of self-justification for her decision to begin consuming meat again, and one assumes dairy as well, that has brought forth "The Vegetarian Myth". It comes off as an attempt to reverse engineer a rationale after she lost her personal faith in veg*nism, partly due to her inability to maintain her health by eating properly. Consider that she began to consume meat again and then released the book several years later. She projects that attempt to resolve her cognitive dissonance onto every veg*n alive today.

If she really wanted to come after modern agriculture, Keith could have left the attack on veg*ns out of it, or at least not made their role in modern agriculture the central premise of the book. Veg*ns tend to be some of the most conscientious people regarding their consumption, leaving a much smaller footprint than most Americans because veg*ns consume their nutrients directly rather than inefficiently through a food animal. It is well documented, and common sense, that it takes many times more resources to grow animals for food than it does to grow produce for food. Basic formulations about the inherent inefficiencies in a meat-based diet do not even take into account the massive amounts of pollution produced by food animals. Dairy cows in California alone produce more waste than all of the state's residents every year, and that does not include the millions of other food animals raised in the state. Hog farm waste lagoons are increasingly a noxious issue in many communities. And while you don't hear Al Gore say it, livestock is one of the greatest contributors to global warming due to the massive amounts of methane released by the animals. As simply as it can be stated, stopping eating meat (and dairy) today is one of the most important things individuals can do to substantially reduce their role in harming the environment. There are other positive steps individuals can take related to their food choices but few, if any, are as immediate and significant.

Lierre Keith presumably knows all of this, yet none of it matters to her any longer. She's found a way around the difficult truth of meat production today in America, where 95% of food animals are raised in factory farms. She dismisses the hard facts about the environmental destruction currently being done in the name of animal agriculture because she can point to a handful of small farms where the animals are allowed to graze. She completely ignores that these farms are an anachronism that not only offer very little for the majority of people today, but any widespread implementation of these farms is far off into the future at best and completely unrealistic at worst as the human population grows and the land and resources available for livestock decreases.

There is a danger to the public buying into Lierre Keith's personal psychodrama regarding her food (in)decisions. As she tells people through her book and at speaking engagements like the one at Bound Together Bookstore that eating meat is natural and good for the environment in some distant future, realistically people will continue (or begin again) to eat meat today, 95% of which comes from incredibly destructive factory farms, destructive to the environment, to human health, and to the animals who live miserable lives until their slaughter. Because the Inuit eat meat, or the Mayans did, we can all wear more leather and pretend that our meat-eating in America today is the same thing and somehow magically moves us to a pastoral future of happy, grazing livestock. She's allowed her personal eating dysfunction to color her world outlook to the point where she's obviously missing the forest for the trees. And she's advocating for others to follow her lead.

Unconvincingly, Lierre Keith wants us to believe that she has finally found her one true god, but with the obvious self-hate she betrays when she continually refers to veg*ns as ignorant or child-like, and with the faulty logical and factual ground on which she builds her case, it becomes apparent that the book is simply a therapeutic vehicle for her, not the self-congratulatory or evangelical effort it pretends to be. If she can convince us, then she can better assure herself that she is at peace with her decision to eat animals. Fortunately, a growing number of people are simply too intelligent and too well-informed to follow her gospel of psuedo-environmental meat-eating in the 21st century.

[dynamo]

Thanks Prodigal Son and Chris82.
When looking into an animal's eyes, I see a sentient being that has as much right for a chance to live on this planet as humans do.
When hungry and munching on some crispy bacon or a drumstick, those thoughts sometimes get pushed to the back-burner.
I have drastically reduced my intake of meats, poultry and dairy products while I search for a diet (primarily nuts, fruits and veggies) that best resonates with my requirements for sustenance and spiritual growth.
So much to learn...

[RMorgan]

Hey folks,

If there´s one thing I´ve learned is that for every subject or cause you can probably imagine, there are supporters and opponents, both sides with their own books and researches.

Honestly, Dynamo, I don´t even know why you decided to posts this, given the fact the "vegetarian vs meat eaters" debates are usually very unproductive around here, but I´ll bite anyway.

Do you know what I think about this? I didn´t even read this book but I think it´s bollocks. The meat industry is reacting to the growth of vegetarianism, and I assure you that you´ll see more and more of such books in the near future.

Being a vegetarian for more than a decade, my health has never been better. I assure you I can rationally refute every single argument against vegetarianism present in this book and any other source of information. If you are up to the challenge, you can make a list of the main arguments in this book and post it here, just leave the moral issues aside because morals are cultural and individual. I can discuss ethics, though.

My advice is, if you are thinking about becoming a vegetarian or vegan, go and do your own research. The only unbiased research you´ll ever find is our own, if you manage to conduct it correctly, of course.

As for Prodigal Son´s reply, named "Baby Death By Veganism", you know it isn´t right. Hundreds of babies die from malnutrition every single day, independently if they are being fed vegan food or not.

All these babies died because of their parents negligence and ignorance. They failed to verify if their own diet was balanced, fooled by their own extremism and blindness, consequently, feeding their child with an unbalanced diet.

Of course, I can´t deny it´s easier to have nutrition problems within a vegan diet than within an omnivorous one. You must do your homework if you plan to go vegan, so you can have a proper balanced diet, otherwise you will have nutrition deficiencies. It´s always highly advised to pay regular visits to a nutritionist doctor specialized on the subject, specially if you are pregnant or are introducing a newborn child to this diet.

Vegetarianism is part of the eastern culture for god knows how many centuries; There are generations and generations of vegetarians in India, China, Taiwan, etc...Taking the malnutrition connected to poverty aside, millions of people don´t seem to have a problem with the vegetarian diet.

Regarding my own experience with vegetarianism, I feel great. I take a regular blood tests at least once in a year and everything is just perfect. I have no vitamin deficiencies whatsoever.

Cheers,

Raf.

[dynamo]

Thanks for your input, Raf, much obliged.

Do you know what I think about this? I didn´t even read this book but I think it´s bollocks. The meat industry is reacting to the growth of vegetarianism, and I assure you that you´ll see more and more of such books in the near future.
The author in the OP was vegan for 20 years and made the switch back to a meat-based protein diet.
Of course the meat industry is going to have their feathers ruffled by vegans but I'd bet 90% of the population remains omnivorous for the foreseeable future.


Honestly, Dynamo, I don´t even know why you decided to posts this, given the fact the "vegetarian vs meat eaters" are usually very unproductive around here, but I´ll bite anyway.
Raf, what may be unproductive to you may answer some questions for myself and others.


My advice is, if you are thinking about becoming a vegetarian or vegan, go and do your own research.
Thanks for your advice; that's what I'm in the midst of doing...research.
I'd love to be able to survive on photons and water but I haven't evolved to that stage yet.
;)

[sheme]

We are what we see, feel, touch, eat, do, say, and most important of all think.

To sustain my existence on Earth, I feel the vibration of Fish, dairy, Fruit, herbs, veg, cereals, seeds, and pulses, are what I need.

If you want meat eat it there is no wrong or right- what resonates with you is right for you.

If you are a veggie that lay guilt on a carnivore , I don't think this serves your best purpose.

However it seems there are more omnivores that try to lay guilt on veggies, I think this is a soul defence mechanism to make them feel OK about what they feel they do to be happy. We all do this from time to time, it is a part of the human condition.

If a soul is choosing to reincarnate to a vegan we must assume that is what they chose to do as this will create the best vibration for them to accomplish their life purpose.


Some first class posts here BTW

[Mu2143]

..............................

[Gekko]

It looks like this book is full of false correlations and straw men:


A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_Sally#Other_kinds_of_Aunt_Sally), is a type of argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument) and is an informal fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[/URL] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-book-3) This technique has been used throughout history in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polemical"]polemical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-files-4) debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged, emotional issues.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Does the author really think that a discussion by internet trolls about forcing veganism on lions in the Serengeti is good material for balanced and truthful discussion? This boggles me.

Tying the weaknesses of feminism and other ideologies into the bundle and then refuting vegetarianism by association is even worse. It reminds me of the Liberal/Conservative divide whereby everyone and everything is artificially separated into camps of 'right' and 'wrong', with no room for nuance.

It's irresponsible to make a blanket statements about a lifestyle because it doesn't work for certain people.

The 'myth' is that there's one ideal that should be canonised as dogma and propagated as the one and only truth. This meat-eater/vegan debate will never come to a close because debates are more often about domination, political agenda and personal vendettas than actually improving or solving the issues at hand. This goes for all sides of the fence.

[Kraut]

Any thoughts on vegan diets out there?
Thanks,
dynamo.

Thanks for the post and book recommendation. I have a pile of books in my reading queue already but I will fit this one in.

I think that if adults want to be vegetarians that's great, for the most part I have lost my desire for all meats aside from chicken. A lot of it had to do with seeing a video on meat.com showing how the animals are treated that just totally made me sick.

However, those same adults should not be risking their children for the sake of their own beliefs or feelings. It has come to my attention recently that quite a few infants and toddlers have been either getting very sick or dying because of vegan diets. That's where we must draw the line.

Baby Death By Veganism (http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet-veganbaby.html)

That is similar to how I feel. Four weeks ago I stopped eating meat completely, I just had the inner desire to quit eating meat all of the sudden. I don't object to killing animals for food but the way society "produces" meat is terrible. However I am not militant about it and won't ever try to convince anyone to be a vegetarian. These are personal issues that everyone has to decide for himself or herself.

Veganism is a whole other story, frankly I think it's silly.

[RMorgan]

However it seems there are more omnivores that try to lay guilt on veggies, I think this is a soul defence mechanism to make them feel OK about what they feel they do to be happy. We all do this from time to time, it is a part of the human condition.


You´re so right, my friend.

Any vegetarian knows how frequently we are "attacked" for no reason in social meetings, parties, etc...

Lots of meat eaters love to engage debates with vegetarians aggressively. Many meat eaters really feel extremely offended with the idea of vegetarianism, for god knows what reason.

This phenomena is so frequent in my life, that I avoid talking about vegetarianism in public as much as I can, except when someone shows a positive interest on learning about it.

Anyway, like you said, Sheme, I respect people for many other things other than their diet. I was never the "evangelist" kind of vegetarian and I´ll never be.

Raf.

[dynamo]

However it seems there are more omnivores that try to lay guilt on veggies, I think this is a soul defence mechanism to make them feel OK about what they feel they do to be happy. We all do this from time to time, it is a part of the human condition.


You´re so right, my friend.

Any vegetarian knows how frequently we are "attacked" for no reason in social meetings, parties, etc...

Lots of meat eaters love to engage debates with vegetarians aggressively. Many meat eaters really feel extremely offended with the idea of vegetarianism, for god knows what reason.

This phenomena is so frequent in my life, that I avoid talking about vegetarianism in public as much as I can, except when someone shows a positive interest on learning about it.

Anyway, like you said, Sheme, I respect people for many other things other than their diet. I was never the "evangelist" kind of vegetarian and I´ll never be.

Raf.
Indeed, it is difficult at times to bring up a vegan diet, especially with those that are not family or friends.
Having both lived and travelled around N.America and Europe, there are times when out on business trips that I must go to restaurants with customers, colleagues or alone.
The choices for healthy, non-meat based food are very limited, especially when in an area that is unfamiliar to me and I find that most frustrating.
Short of going to a grocery store (that's out of the question when on a strict timeline), I usually "suck it up" and stick to a chicken salad or salad alone.

This gentleman makes a case for the pre-conditioning of humans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TlHcEcUWUE

[Gekko]

I don't object to killing animals for food but the way society "produces" meat is terrible. However I am not militant about it and won't ever try to convince anyone to be a vegetarian. These are personal issues that everyone has to decide for himself or herself.

This is pretty much where I stand. It's all about the context. The difference between sustainable hunting, humane farming, or veritable concentration camps for animals. Indigenous peoples have sustained themselves on all sorts of diets for thousands of years, many including large amounts of animal protein. Are we to hold up a one-model diet and tell them "you're doing it wrong"?

The big question that comes up for me personally is, could I do the killing myself? It's heartbreaking and difficult to imagine. But someone has to do it; what I've basically been done my whole life is hire hitmen to do the dirty work for me. Then again, for people who live closer to the Earth and their own roots, perhaps there is a completely different perspective on these things.

Some people do seem to thrive on raw veganism. I'd like to try it at some point, given the right environment.

[Ol' Roy]

Hey Guys,

I am tired of all the diets. Whether it be vegan, vegetarian, or meat eaterism(lol).

I agree with the OP on a lot of things.

I tried Harvey Diamonds stuff back in the 80's. Mainly fruit. I lost 25 pounds in about 3 months. I had a high energy job which demanded a high caloric intake. If I were able to eat 20 pounds a fruit a day maybe. I went to a party after having lost the weight. My friends thought I had cancer!

My philosophy, for what it's worth. Everything in moderation. Yes, I am more mindful, of what, I consume. Am looking into grass feed beef, from a friend. Maybe 3 or 4 times a week, instead of 2x a day every day. Don't get me wrong, I still like my bacon, every once in a while!

I have been tested for allergies. And most of them come from grains! But I still love them!

[bruno dante]

Some subsist just fine on vegetables; some require meat. There is no "best" or "better" diet here, only what is best for that particular individual.

No judgements, either way.

[Akasha]

Veganism is a whole other story, frankly I think it's silly.

....and drinking white $h!t from cows tits isn't?

The subtle programming enforced on us by society from a tender age has a lot to answer for. Whilst I openly admire the earlier part of your post, Kraut, your final comment is still, imo, simply a residual manifestation of that programming......and hopefully, the undeniably disturbing image of a human suckling from the teat of a bovine will help to clarify that some time in the near future.

In fairness I've only been down the vegan road for a couple of weeks so far but I can already report that my decade-old love handles are finally disappearing (thank god!!).

Again, hats off for cutting out the meat, Kraut.

[northstar]

I really encourage everyone to look at this short video. I believe it aligns with what Lierre Keith is saying.

Video clip: Someone Give This Man A Nobel Prize Already. He’s Going To Save The Planet!

"This man, Allan Savory, once bought into a lie that everyone accepted blindly. This lie resulted in something horrible happening, which he supported at the time. But now he has a mission. A simple and beautiful mission: SAVE. THE. PLANET. He’s going to do it, too. Watch and be in awe."


http://www.upworthy.com/someone-give-this-man-a-nobel-prize-already-he-s-going-to-save-the-planet?g=3&c=gp1

[buckminster fuller]

Pragmatically, this book is just another lie. Do you know how much land it takes to feed one cow..? How much water..? Well, in modern agriculture where livestock is fed with cereales (in the best case scenario), it takes all the water that was needed to grow those cereals in the first place, plus the water to sustain the animals life. In terms of space it is a huge waste of soil. Meat is the most ecologically expensive food we have. And we're not carnivores ffs... we're ominivorous. We can and should have an eclectic diet. Opposing veggies and meat is industry business, and we get caught up in their silly game. This book is just another example that rethorics embodied in pathos do work.

Edit : this book belongs 2 centuries ago...

[northstar]

Pragmatically, this book is just another lie. Do you know how much land it takes to feed one cow..? How much water..? Well, in modern agriculture where livestock is fed with cereales (in the best case scenario), it takes all the water that was needed to grow those cereals in the first place, plus the water to sustain the animals life. In terms of space it is a huge waste of soil. Meat is the most ecologically expensive food we have. And we're not carnivores ffs... we're ominivorous. We can and should have an eclectic diet. Opposing veggies and meat is industry business, and we get caught up in their silly game. This book is just another example that rethorics embodied in pathos do work.

Edit : this book belongs 2 centuries ago...


I really encourage all those who believe this to watch this remarkable TED video about Allan Savory, who is re-foresting Africa. He presents compelling evidence. I would love to hear feedback from vegans about the evidence he presents.


I really encourage everyone to look at this short video. I believe it aligns with what Lierre Keith is saying.

Video clip: Someone Give This Man A Nobel Prize Already. He’s Going To Save The Planet!

"This man, Allan Savory, once bought into a lie that everyone accepted blindly. This lie resulted in something horrible happening, which he supported at the time. But now he has a mission. A simple and beautiful mission: SAVE. THE. PLANET. He’s going to do it, too. Watch and be in awe."


http://www.upworthy.com/someone-give-this-man-a-nobel-prize-already-he-s-going-to-save-the-planet?g=3&c=gp1

[Gekko]

The subtle programming enforced on us by society from a tender age has a lot to answer for. Whilst I openly admire the earlier part of your post, Kraut, your final comment is still, imo, simply a residual manifestation of that programming......and hopefully, the undeniably disturbing image of a human suckling from the teat of a bovine will help to clarify that some time in the near future.

Programming can go both ways. Disgust and disturbance are not always useful guidestones, because they often rest on ethnocentric conceptions of purity rather than an objective look at what harm is being done.

[buckminster fuller]

Pragmatically, this book is just another lie. Do you know how much land it takes to feed one cow..? How much water..? Well, in modern agriculture where livestock is fed with cereales (in the best case scenario), it takes all the water that was needed to grow those cereals in the first place, plus the water to sustain the animals life. In terms of space it is a huge waste of soil. Meat is the most ecologically expensive food we have. And we're not carnivores ffs... we're ominivorous. We can and should have an eclectic diet. Opposing veggies and meat is industry business, and we get caught up in their silly game. This book is just another example that rethorics embodied in pathos do work.



Edit : this book belongs 2 centuries ago...


I really encourage all those who believe this to watch this remarkable TED video about Allan Savory, who is re-foresting Africa. He presents compelling evidence. I would love to hear feedback from vegans about the evidence he presents.


I really encourage everyone to look at this short video. I believe it aligns with what Lierre Keith is saying.

Video clip: Someone Give This Man A Nobel Prize Already. He’s Going To Save The Planet!

"This man, Allan Savory, once bought into a lie that everyone accepted blindly. This lie resulted in something horrible happening, which he supported at the time. But now he has a mission. A simple and beautiful mission: SAVE. THE. PLANET. He’s going to do it, too. Watch and be in awe."


http://www.upworthy.com/someone-give-this-man-a-nobel-prize-already-he-s-going-to-save-the-planet?g=3&c=gp1

Of course we could change pathways... And things would be different, equations would shift. As it is today, our course is nowhere close to what is projected in this TedX. Modern agriculture and the breeding of livestock only have profit in mind. Engaging people to think otherwise is dangerous in all aspects. I'm talking about our collective reality, where trees in Amazonia are still being cut, and where precious land that could be devoted to grow food for people is used to grow food for animals, or worse, to make fuel or fuel additives.
We're close to 7 billions on this earth. We can't provide meat to everyone in the volumes that we're used to without devastating our landscapes.

Edit: permaculture and aquaponics are the future of man. I hope you like fish...

[Akasha]

Video clip: Someone Give This Man A Nobel Prize Already. He’s Going To Save The Planet!



http://www.upworthy.com/someone-give-this-man-a-nobel-prize-already-he-s-going-to-save-the-planet?g=3&c=gp1

Poignent video, northstar. Thanks. Ultimately it would be most ideal for those domesticated herds to be gradually replaced by indigenous wild herbivores.......like it was before livestock farming came into existence.

[buckminster fuller]

Video clip: Someone Give This Man A Nobel Prize Already. He’s Going To Save The Planet!



http://www.upworthy.com/someone-give-this-man-a-nobel-prize-already-he-s-going-to-save-the-planet?g=3&c=gp1

Poignent video, northstar. Thanks. Ultimately it would be most ideal for those domesticated herds to be gradually replaced by indigenous wild herbivores.......like it was before livestock farming came into existence.

Indeed it would be very nice, but not possible in this money paradigm.

[sirdipswitch]

I eat meat. I like meat.

But I ain't givin up my Donuts, for anything.ccc. :wizard:

[RMorgan]

Pragmatically, this book is just another lie. Do you know how much land it takes to feed one cow..? How much water..? Well, in modern agriculture where livestock is fed with cereales (in the best case scenario), it takes all the water that was needed to grow those cereals in the first place, plus the water to sustain the animals life. In terms of space it is a huge waste of soil. Meat is the most ecologically expensive food we have. And we're not carnivores ffs... we're ominivorous. We can and should have an eclectic diet. Opposing veggies and meat is industry business, and we get caught up in their silly game. This book is just another example that rethorics embodied in pathos do work.



Edit : this book belongs 2 centuries ago...


I really encourage all those who believe this to watch this remarkable TED video about Allan Savory, who is re-foresting Africa. He presents compelling evidence. I would love to hear feedback from vegans about the evidence he presents.


I really encourage everyone to look at this short video. I believe it aligns with what Lierre Keith is saying.

Video clip: Someone Give This Man A Nobel Prize Already. He’s Going To Save The Planet!

"This man, Allan Savory, once bought into a lie that everyone accepted blindly. This lie resulted in something horrible happening, which he supported at the time. But now he has a mission. A simple and beautiful mission: SAVE. THE. PLANET. He’s going to do it, too. Watch and be in awe."


http://www.upworthy.com/someone-give-this-man-a-nobel-prize-already-he-s-going-to-save-the-planet?g=3&c=gp1

Of course we could change pathways... And things would be different, equations would shift. As it is today, our course is nowhere close to what is projected in this TedX. Modern agriculture and the breeding of livestock only have profit in mind. Engaging people to think otherwise is dangerous in all aspects. I'm talking about our collective reality, where trees in Amazonia are still being cut, and where precious land that could be devoted to grow food for people is used to grow food for animals, or worse, to make fuel or fuel additives.
We're close to 7 billions on this earth. We can't provide meat to everyone in the volumes that we're used to without devastating our landscapes.

Edit: permaculture and aquaponics are the future of man. I hope you like fish...

Yes. I can talk about my own country here, and its relationship with extensive livestock regime.

Practically, all Brazilian biomes were devastated by cattle and the grains planted to feed it.

Our "Mata Atlântica" is almost completely gone due to livestock farming. The "Floresta Amazônica" is being gradually destroyed due to livestock farming.

The Amazon forest is in the process of desertification due to deforestation created to generate large spaces to raise lifestock and plant its food. Desertification wouldn´t be happening there if it had not been artificially deforested to farm livestock and its food. Period.

Brazil is the #1 meet and soy exporter in the world. 70% of the soy farmed here is to feed livestock. Now, just do the math. How much space needed to be "cleaned up"so that Brazil could occupy that position, and for what? Is it right to make all this damage so that people can eat their hamburgers and barbecue?

As for the guy in the lecture, I can clearly perceive an agenda behind his statements. How lovely is the picture of that happy woman carrying a "USAID" bag on her shoulders, right? How convenient it would be for American livestock farmers to export their businesses to Africa, where the land is unlimited and considerably cheaper, disguising their businesses as "eco-humanitarian" measures. We all know what American international "aid" really is. We´re not that naive, right?

Besides, I can´t trust a man who stimulated the killing of 40.000 elephants. I can even imagine the happiness of the local administration having their multi-millionaire controversial hunting industry being backed up by a group of scientists back then. What a lie...I mean, giving a pseudo-ecological character to predatory hunting.

Did he really need to kill 40.000 elephants just to be proven wrong later on? Of course not.

Will he be proven wrong after he transforms Africa into America´s livestock farming land? Probably yes, but then it will be too late, at least for the Africans, just like it was too late for the elephants.

Raf.

[Wind]

Many good points here. I have stated this many times in the past, but I think that the way how animals are treated is absolutely horrible, though I'm not sure about that how "organic" meat is produced. I haven't read about it. The destroying of the Amazon rain forests just to get hamburgers? That's just insane!

If the only way to get to meat was to kill an animal, I couldn't do it. Even the thought of it makes me feel nauseous. I don't even kill insects, at least not consciously even though I can't stand them.

This is a very emotional topic and people just love arguing about it. I just do what feels right to me and that's it.

[Abhaya]

Somebody better let all those life long vegetarian yogis in India, especially the ones who are 100+ years old, know that they have been doing it wrong.....

get them a steak before its too late :0

[Abhaya]

To make the argument that vegetarianism is unhealthy is just downright stupid IMO. While you can have diets both carnivorous and vegetarian that are lacking in nutrients.... To say that it is impossible to be healthy with out meat is just the worst idea I've ever heard. For one people have been able to turn their poor artery clogged health around by switching from diets high in red meat to a plant based one. Secondly people have been living long healthy lives while being completely vegetarian for hundreds of years ( in fact probably a lot longer.) in my opinion the material that this thread is based on is just a sham for people to skip over the shaky ground that is the meat eaters side of the ethical debate entirely. A quick and easy fix to put their conscience at ease. Poor form.

Here is a fact. You can live vegetarian and be 100% healthy.... Now you make the choice. Do you want to kill highly conscience animals to feed your face or not. We are all familiar with the ethics to that debate. But don't think for a second this "bollocks" material frees you from the karma of that choice for one second.


Edit: the first line of this post is in reference to the book this thread is based on and not the OP themselves

[lunaflare]

Last night I watched a wildlife show on animals surviving in the Arctic tundra; incredible to see how a variety of species from the teeny lemming who burrow beneath the snowy earth, long haired bison, swift white reindeer, foxes and wolves, owls... Amazing that these creatures can survive temps of 50 below in the peak of winter. I was reminded of the instinct of survival, "group think" and how each species hunts, kills another species in order to live and to mate and then feed their young; then there is the strong call of migration, fur/feathers change colour as the seasons change (camouflage). Life is no picnic for these animals. It is either kill or be killed. So what is my point...?

Well, I can think of three:
1. We humans do not act in a collective way (there are many varying beliefs and choices).
2. Factory farming animals is a Corporation. Profit only. Minimal ethics. High level of cruelty
(I oppose that and make choices that feel moderately ok. I am vegetarian and yet have milk/yoghurt-mostly organic. These choices are fraught with paradox and hypocrisy. I accept that.)
3. There is a delicate balance of this Planet's ecosystem.

I feel humans are out of place here. Too many,too dominant and too greedy.

Corporation-think is at the core of the problem here.
In my opinion, of course

[conk]

You are all wrong. Humans are designed to eat astronaut food in little pill form. Bill Gates and David Rockefeller said so.

[161803398]

Why don't they replace the elephants and the buffalo?

[Daughter of Time]

I think it's wonderful that we are questioning more and more what we put into our bodies and becoming more aware of what's best for our bodies, the animals and the environment, even if this subject does ruffle feathers on a regular basis.

In an ideal world, we would all learn to become vegetarians naturally, without forcing ourselves to do so, without suffering the consequences of shocking the body to accept a different lifestyle, But we do not live in an ideal world and tolerance is required for the time being. To ask a carnivore to suddenly become vegan is quite unreasonable as the body might go into a state of shock and suffer tremendously and become very ill.

The masses eat McDonald's. I do not judge them, but I do question their colossal ignorance. Do they really realize what they're putting into their bodies and how detrimental those eating habits are to themselves and the planet in general? If they really did understand, would they still do it?

Sometimes the mind and the soul reach a level of understanding whereby they know that eating meat is not necessarily the ideal way to feed oneself. But the body is often left behind, not reaching the same level of consciousness as the mind and the soul, thereby still needing to feed on animals as it was used to. Instead of judging the body and depriving it of its needs, let the changes come gradually. First learn to eat less meat and make sure it comes from a local farm where animals are treated humanely, where they are allowed to feed, roam and play on large pastures, where the killing is done with as little trauma as possible.

Years ago I was invited to a dinner party where the host is a Buddhist and so were most of the guests. There was a meat dish on the buffet table. I was quite surprised. Some Buddhists eat meat, not because they want to, but because their bodies have not caught up with their minds.

I feel it is far worse to judge another for their needs than to feed the body what it needs while it needs it.

Developing mindfulness is what's most important: mindfulness in what we put into our bodies, mindfulness in judging others, mindfulness in realizing that people will have to grow at their own paces.

I feel there is nothing wrong with discussing our eating lifestyles provided that ideas are exchanged without judgment. If you're a vegetarian, please do not judge omnivores. If you're an omnivore, please do not make fun of vegetarians.

And I have not read the book discussed in the OP but I probably will. Not every body is meant to be vegetarian, at least, not at this point in time and under the planet's current level of consciousness.

So let us learn to accept each other whether we agree with each other or not, and maybe some day we will all reach a level of consciousness whereby we know exactly what our bodies need and we learn to recognize when we are ready to make favorable changes and gently nudge others to make those changes as well, without judgment, without anger, without self-righteousness, but with understanding and heart.

[enfoldedblue]

Hi,
I've given up the labels.

I grew up eating meat. In fact living on a small hobby farm I knew the names of the animals I ate. They were loved. We were known by the kids at hippy commune next door as ‘the meat eaters’. My friends there would ask me “Is it true you eat blood pudding for dessert?” lol.

In my late teens I became vegetarian..then ate meat again. Then in my early 20's I became vegetarian for more than 15 years.

One aspect I personally had trouble with was when I went to someone's house for dinner. I didn't like that I couldn't just share and enjoy the food presented....I didn't like needing a special meal.
In my early 20’s my boyfriend’s mum was Buddhist. She ate meat, because apparently Buddha said that as long as you didn’t kill the animal it was ok. This seemed totally wrong to me so I looked further into it. What I discovered was that this is what Buddha told his disciples who were dependant on food donations from others. The idea was for them not to be precious, or ‘above’ meat eaters...not to turn their nose up to food generously presented to them.

This made sense to me, so I began to only eat meat if it was presented me.

Anyway to make a long story short, eventually I decided to give up trying to label myself.

I am not a vegetarian, a meat eater, a vegan, a raw foodie.....etc. I am human and I eat. What I eat changes from moment to moment.

I eat as consciously as I can, taking into account what is good for my body, for the planet, for animals and those around me.

Overall I don’t eat very much meat. The only meat I eat comes from an ethical organic farm. I know the farmers; they are a lovely couple who care about their animals and the planet. Yes it is expensive, but that’s ok because I only eat a bit.

This is what feels right to me...and at the end of the day that what I believe is important. Being conscious about our choices...but ultimately doing what feels right for us.

To me there is no right or wrong answer...consciousness is key.

[Abhaya]

I think it's wonderful that we are questioning more and more what we put into our bodies and becoming more aware of what's best for our bodies, the animals and the environment, even if this subject does ruffle feathers on a regular basis.

In an ideal world, we would all learn to become vegetarians naturally, without forcing ourselves to do so, without suffering the consequences of shocking the body to accept a different lifestyle, But we do not live in an ideal world and tolerance is required for the time being. To ask a carnivore to suddenly become vegan is quite unreasonable as the body might go into a state of shock and suffer tremendously and become very ill.

The masses eat McDonald's. I do not judge them, but I do question their colossal ignorance. Do they really realize what they're putting into their bodies and how detrimental those eating habits are to themselves and the planet in general? If they really did understand, would they still do it?

Sometimes the mind and the soul reach a level of understanding whereby they know that eating meat is not necessarily the ideal way to feed oneself. But the body is often left behind, not reaching the same level of consciousness as the mind and the soul, thereby still needing to feed on animals as it was used to. Instead of judging the body and depriving it of its needs, let the changes come gradually. First learn to eat less meat and make sure it comes from a local farm where animals are treated humanely, where they are allowed to feed, roam and play on large pastures, where the killing is done with as little trauma as possible.

Years ago I was invited to a dinner party where the host is a Buddhist and so were most of the guests. There was a meat dish on the buffet table. I was quite surprised. Some Buddhists eat meat, not because they want to, but because their bodies have not caught up with their minds.

I feel it is far worse to judge another for their needs than to feed the body what it needs while it needs it.

Developing mindfulness is what's most important: mindfulness in what we put into our bodies, mindfulness in judging others, mindfulness in realizing that people will have to grow at their own paces.

I feel there is nothing wrong with discussing our eating lifestyles provided that ideas are exchanged without judgment. If you're a vegetarian, please do not judge omnivores. If you're an omnivore, please do not make fun of vegetarians.

And I have not read the book discussed in the OP but I probably will. Not every body is meant to be vegetarian, at least, not at this point in time and under the planet's current level of consciousness.

So let us learn to accept each other whether we agree with each other or not, and maybe some day we will all reach a level of consciousness whereby we know exactly what our bodies need and we learn to recognize when we are ready to make favorable changes and gently nudge others to make those changes as well, without judgment, without anger, without self-righteousness, but with understanding and heart.

Some excellent points. However I think you are making a bit of a stretch where you refer to so many "bodies" not being ready for a vegetarian diet. What exactly do you base that on? If someone makes an educated and nutritionally complete switch to vegetarianism then the switch is simply one of overcoming mental cravings, I can attest to this with my own experience. As I was not (nor am I yet) in any special enlightened state which allows me to not eat meat. I had no issues with my body craving meat,due to missing nutrients as I was making sure to get all the necessary nutrients in my vegetarian diet. I had cravings for the taste of things like hot wings. But found so many ways to satisfy that tasting experience (which is derived mostly from spice and not the chicken itself, via vegetarian options. A matter of change in habits. Still not the easiest change I agree. But I fear when you say that someone may not have a body ready for vegetarianism, that you open a similar window as the above article. One which allows someone to feel they don't have a choice in what they eat. When the fact is excluding extreme medical conditions we all have the choice. And we all have some responsibility for that choice.

[Daughter of Time]

I think it's wonderful that we are questioning more and more what we put into our bodies and becoming more aware of what's best for our bodies, the animals and the environment, even if this subject does ruffle feathers on a regular basis.

In an ideal world, we would all learn to become vegetarians naturally, without forcing ourselves to do so, without suffering the consequences of shocking the body to accept a different lifestyle, But we do not live in an ideal world and tolerance is required for the time being. To ask a carnivore to suddenly become vegan is quite unreasonable as the body might go into a state of shock and suffer tremendously and become very ill.

The masses eat McDonald's. I do not judge them, but I do question their colossal ignorance. Do they really realize what they're putting into their bodies and how detrimental those eating habits are to themselves and the planet in general? If they really did understand, would they still do it?

Sometimes the mind and the soul reach a level of understanding whereby they know that eating meat is not necessarily the ideal way to feed oneself. But the body is often left behind, not reaching the same level of consciousness as the mind and the soul, thereby still needing to feed on animals as it was used to. Instead of judging the body and depriving it of its needs, let the changes come gradually. First learn to eat less meat and make sure it comes from a local farm where animals are treated humanely, where they are allowed to feed, roam and play on large pastures, where the killing is done with as little trauma as possible.

Years ago I was invited to a dinner party where the host is a Buddhist and so were most of the guests. There was a meat dish on the buffet table. I was quite surprised. Some Buddhists eat meat, not because they want to, but because their bodies have not caught up with their minds.

I feel it is far worse to judge another for their needs than to feed the body what it needs while it needs it.

Developing mindfulness is what's most important: mindfulness in what we put into our bodies, mindfulness in judging others, mindfulness in realizing that people will have to grow at their own paces.

I feel there is nothing wrong with discussing our eating lifestyles provided that ideas are exchanged without judgment. If you're a vegetarian, please do not judge omnivores. If you're an omnivore, please do not make fun of vegetarians.

And I have not read the book discussed in the OP but I probably will. Not every body is meant to be vegetarian, at least, not at this point in time and under the planet's current level of consciousness.

So let us learn to accept each other whether we agree with each other or not, and maybe some day we will all reach a level of consciousness whereby we know exactly what our bodies need and we learn to recognize when we are ready to make favorable changes and gently nudge others to make those changes as well, without judgment, without anger, without self-righteousness, but with understanding and heart.

Some excellent points. However I think you are making a bit of a stretch where you refer to so many "bodies" not being ready for a vegetarian diet. What exactly do you base that on? If someone makes an educated and nutritionally complete switch to vegetarianism then the switch is simply one of overcoming mental cravings, I can attest to this with my own experience. As I was not (nor am I yet) in any special enlightened state which allows me to not eat meat. I had no issues with my body craving meat,due to missing nutrients as I was making sure to get all the necessary nutrients in my vegetarian diet. I had cravings for the taste of things like hot wings. But found so many ways to satisfy that tasting experience (which is derived mostly from spice and not the chicken itself, via vegetarian options. A matter of change in habits. Still not the easiest change I agree. But I fear when you say that someone may not have a body ready for vegetarianism, that you open a similar window as the above article. One which allows someone to feel they don't have a choice in what they eat. When the fact is excluding extreme medical conditions we all have the choice. And we all have some responsibility for that choice.

All I meant to say is that some people simply don't do well on a vegetarian diet even when following all the protocols of vegetarianism. Their bodies don't do well. Their energy levels drop. They feel sickly. I know people who have repeatedly tried to be vegetarians but their bodies did not operate as well as they did before becoming vegetarians. Maybe they have conditions they are not aware of. Maybe they gave up too soon. I don't know.

These discussions still seem to instigate adversity so perhaps I should simply learn to stay away from threads about vegetarianism in the future.

[Prodigal Son]

Okay I'll rephrase... children have been dying from "unbalanced vegan diets".

Better?

Babies look funny eating t-bone steaks anyway ;)

[Maunagarjana]

Here's a response to the book, in case anyone would like to see some counter-arguments before reading it:

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2010/03/15/correcting_the_vegetarian_myth.pdf

[The Truth Is In There]

there's no right diet for everyone. some do well on lots of meat and fat, others on mostly plants. very few need only sunlight and air and no food at all. doesn't mean this works for everyone.

i've debated pro and con vegetarianism for years and finally realized that the whole discussion is totally pointless because with diet more than almost anything else there is no one single truth.

find out what works for you and stick with it but don't try to convince others. help them if they ask you but don't expect them to follow your advice to the t if it doesn't work for them.

[Abhaya]

I think it's wonderful that we are questioning more and more what we put into our bodies and becoming more aware of what's best for our bodies, the animals and the environment, even if this subject does ruffle feathers on a regular basis.

In an ideal world, we would all learn to become vegetarians naturally, without forcing ourselves to do so, without suffering the consequences of shocking the body to accept a different lifestyle, But we do not live in an ideal world and tolerance is required for the time being. To ask a carnivore to suddenly become vegan is quite unreasonable as the body might go into a state of shock and suffer tremendously and become very ill.

The masses eat McDonald's. I do not judge them, but I do question their colossal ignorance. Do they really realize what they're putting into their bodies and how detrimental those eating habits are to themselves and the planet in general? If they really did understand, would they still do it?

Sometimes the mind and the soul reach a level of understanding whereby they know that eating meat is not necessarily the ideal way to feed oneself. But the body is often left behind, not reaching the same level of consciousness as the mind and the soul, thereby still needing to feed on animals as it was used to. Instead of judging the body and depriving it of its needs, let the changes come gradually. First learn to eat less meat and make sure it comes from a local farm where animals are treated humanely, where they are allowed to feed, roam and play on large pastures, where the killing is done with as little trauma as possible.

Years ago I was invited to a dinner party where the host is a Buddhist and so were most of the guests. There was a meat dish on the buffet table. I was quite surprised. Some Buddhists eat meat, not because they want to, but because their bodies have not caught up with their minds.

I feel it is far worse to judge another for their needs than to feed the body what it needs while it needs it.

Developing mindfulness is what's most important: mindfulness in what we put into our bodies, mindfulness in judging others, mindfulness in realizing that people will have to grow at their own paces.

I feel there is nothing wrong with discussing our eating lifestyles provided that ideas are exchanged without judgment. If you're a vegetarian, please do not judge omnivores. If you're an omnivore, please do not make fun of vegetarians.

And I have not read the book discussed in the OP but I probably will. Not every body is meant to be vegetarian, at least, not at this point in time and under the planet's current level of consciousness.

So let us learn to accept each other whether we agree with each other or not, and maybe some day we will all reach a level of consciousness whereby we know exactly what our bodies need and we learn to recognize when we are ready to make favorable changes and gently nudge others to make those changes as well, without judgment, without anger, without self-righteousness, but with understanding and heart.

Some excellent points. However I think you are making a bit of a stretch where you refer to so many "bodies" not being ready for a vegetarian diet. What exactly do you base that on? If someone makes an educated and nutritionally complete switch to vegetarianism then the switch is simply one of overcoming mental cravings, I can attest to this with my own experience. As I was not (nor am I yet) in any special enlightened state which allows me to not eat meat. I had no issues with my body craving meat,due to missing nutrients as I was making sure to get all the necessary nutrients in my vegetarian diet. I had cravings for the taste of things like hot wings. But found so many ways to satisfy that tasting experience (which is derived mostly from spice and not the chicken itself, via vegetarian options. A matter of change in habits. Still not the easiest change I agree. But I fear when you say that someone may not have a body ready for vegetarianism, that you open a similar window as the above article. One which allows someone to feel they don't have a choice in what they eat. When the fact is excluding extreme medical conditions we all have the choice. And we all have some responsibility for that choice.

All I meant to say is that some people simply don't do well on a vegetarian diet even when following all the protocols of vegetarianism. Their bodies don't do well. Their energy levels drop. They feel sickly. I know people who have repeatedly tried to be vegetarians but their bodies did not operate as well as they did before becoming vegetarians. Maybe they have conditions they are not aware of. Maybe they gave up too soon. I don't know.

These discussions still seem to instigate adversity so perhaps I should simply learn to stay away from threads about vegetarianism in the future.

I certainly meant no hostility towards you. I do differ with your opinion, where you say that it is a common occurrence that one who switches to a nutritionally complete vegetarian diet often will experiance problems, lack of energy, sickness ect. I would say that if someone switches to any kind of diet that is nutritionally unbalanced, then yes there will be problems. I will also say that a vegan diet is the most difficult diet as far as ensuring that you get everything the body needs, (however a non vegan vegetarian diet, on the other hand, is a pretty easy these days). But as I stated before it is a fact that entire civilizations have been living vegetarian for hundreds if not thousands of years. Not just the enlightened yogis of India but the beggars and thieves as well. Body is one thing and spirit is another. And the human body in this day in age does not need meat to survive. It doesn't matter what state your consciousness is at. If you give your body the nutrients it needs you will live and thrive. It does not matter whether you get those nutrients from a plant based diet or a meat based one. And again while I know you did not mean it this way, I feel the need to say that the idea that a magority of bodies are not able to handle a vegetarian diet (note there are some extreme medical cases), is dangerous because it might allow people on the fence to assume that "hey my body probably isn't meant for a vegetarian diet", and therefor feel they have an excuse to bypass the ethical and personally responsible decision to choose what they eat.

One clarification upon further thought. There are some extreme examples of breatharians transcending the needs of the body and living off air and sunlight. And one could argue that "hey if they can live off sunlight and others can't, then maybe some people can live off veggies while others cannot". But these people make up a .0001 percent of the population. And you could say they have achieved a mystic power to a large degree, which enables their abilities. Do you need mystic powers to be a vegetarian? I doubt it because I just saw a commercial that said you can now get veggie burgers at Burger King..... Point, not everyone can be a breatharian, but this is on such a different level then veggies vs meat that it hardly applies


Lastly..... You say that you have personally known people who have switched to and followed nutritionally complete vegetarian diets, and watched them become ill, weak, sickly and so on. Sorry but I don't buy it..... Even if they became sick while being vegetarian, there are so many other unrelated things that could have made them sick. Vegetarianism far from insures perfect health. People are quick to blame an illness on it however especially if they recently made a switch in diets. Can u really say with certainty that they got ill from a lack of meat? Also if they were someone who was questioning what they eat and where it came from, and as a result, trying a less violent diet, don't you think they would be at a conscious level( if in fact the average person needs to raise their consciousness level to be vegetarian) to do just that and at least live off veggies ( which I repeat is no great mystic or spiritual feat)?

[Flash]

Whatever we do, whatever we eat, the problems imo does not lie in what we eat but in how we eat. How do we raise farm animals, how do we take care of industrial gardens, how do we fish our seas, and further, how do we treat our environment. it is the how that is damaging throughout the whole food chain. It is the how that has to be revised throughout.

And once grown, cultivated, farmed, fed, how do we react while eating, how gratefull are we, our respectful are we. The how is fundamentally wrong, our approach to it is fundamentally wrong.

[Limor Wolf]

Food is an energy source, it holds a vibration like most everything else. There are different vibrations to different kinds of foods. people as well have vibrations, each person is like a relay station or a radio station and the most suitable food for them will be the one that will match their own personal vibration. A pound of flour can not be compared to a pound of lettuce or to a pound of meat since Each has it's own frequency.

Some people prefer clasical music, others like hard rock, others enjoy listening to folk music. it will always be about the matching of vibrations between ourselfs and what is out there, dynamics between people are also influenced by the subtle frequencies each person's holds. Souls in all shapes or forms are vibrating according to a level of consciousness. different body's need different foods and that has something (but not everything) to do with awarness and that can change sometimes radically throughout one's life as their awarness grows. however. there are more parameters that count, since as humans we are complexed beings and things are not as strictly as black or white.

[Akasha]

As I've mentioned before, maybe the carnivorous are destined to return as the battery farmed until they attach more value to life.

[Alan]

As I've mentioned before, maybe the carnivorous are destined to return as the battery farmed until they attach more value to life.

That could be a valuable lesson.

Perhaps vegans should return as rabbits which are shredded to pieces by a combine as the grain field is harvested.

Or maybe as a fish dying a slow death from poisonous runoff from pesticides protecting the grain field from insects.

Food production, whether animal or plant, does not not need to as painful and as destructive as it is -- let's fix it together, with respect for ALL life.

[sheme]

Sorry there is doubt about Karma now! Think about it, what imperfect being demands punishment for a persons misdirections, the newly enlightened tend to punish them selves.

killing more rabbits won't serve any purpose. even if they are occupied by ignorant souls??

A moment of irony perhaps we see the cycle here - perhaps we fools demand that the meat eater is eaten, therefore the carnage continues

It is not right that we inflict our own primitive justice on something unimaginably wise/and perfect.

Until we can forgive everything and send out genuine love to all other beings we will remain in the 3rd dimension.

[Akasha]

As I've mentioned before, maybe the carnivorous are destined to return as the battery farmed until they attach more value to life.

That could be a valuable lesson.

Perhaps vegans should return as rabbits which are shredded to pieces by a combine as the grain field is harvested.

Or maybe as a fish dying a slow death from poisonous runoff from pesticides protecting the grain field from insects.

Food production, whether animal or plant, does not not need to as painful and as destructive as it is -- let's fix it together, with respect for ALL life.

At least the rabbit would have some chance of escaping it's fate, same goes for the fish........

......and your last sentence is, I'm afraid, a thinly veiled oxymoron. How can you produce animal food whilst maintaining respect for all life?

Where is the respect in violating a sentient animal's right to life?

[Akasha]

Sorry there is doubt about Karma now! Think about it, what imperfect being demands punishment for a persons misdirections, the newly enlightened tend to punish them selves.

killing more rabbits won't serve any purpose. even if they are occupied by ignorant souls??

A moment of irony perhaps we see the cycle here - perhaps we fools demand that the meat eater is eaten, therefore the carnage continues

It is not right that we inflict our own primitive justice on something unimaginably wise/and perfect.

Until we can forgive everything and send out genuine love to all other beings we will remain in the 3rd dimension.

Hi Sheme. I'm not sure who or what you are insinuating is demanding punishment or is newly enlightened, but anyway, my statement wasn't demanding anything. Gently requesting contemplation, perhaps but there was no demand in the sentence. The cycle I suggested could be more likened to the proverbial child putting it's hand in the fire. No judgement ensues but the child still experiences pain...........and then it learns.

[Akasha]

My passion, age and naivety often culminate in causing inflammation when threads of this nature reappear on Avalon and for that I apologise. It really isn't my intention.

I would like to share an essay on the subject by someone whom many on Avalon have a deep respect and admiration for: Wade Frasier.

Wade has an eloquence about him which may hopefully serve some purpose in the delivery of this message.


A Vegetarian's Journey

By Wade Frazier



I decided to write this essay because I became embroiled in the vegetarian issue, a controversy I did not know existed until 2000, when I was surprised to read an article that attacked vegetarianism, in an alternative medicine magazine. It was framed under the rubric of myth debunking, which is a popular strategy these days.[1] I heard people express concern over the health dangers of being vegetarian when I became one during the 1970s, but those concerns seemed groundless, and I never heard anybody voice it since. I had been a happy vegetarian for many years when I read that article, and I felt like Rip Van Winkle, sleeping through a controversy that has apparently not abated. I began surfing the Internet to read other writings by that author and his chums, and the more I read, the angrier I became. Some of their work read like Elizabeth’s Whelan’s, with links to CSICOP and other establishment defenders.

The author put in a disclaimer that the meat interests were not bankrolling him, and perhaps they were not, but his work was nearly as supportive of their interests as Whelan and Steve Milloy are supportive of their patrons. I wrote a furious letter to the editor, and I was shocked when they published it a few months later, with the author’s rebuttal.[2] That author betrayed his own anti-vegetarian fervor by making the irrelevant observation in his riposte that Hitler was a vegetarian (which is not true). The more I read their work, the clearer their mission became.[3] They also assail the soybean.

This subject is better served by discussing issues that have been muddled by both pro-vegetarian and anti-vegetarian advocates. Both can miss and confuse important issues. The United States has the world’s biggest flesh-eating culture, as well as history’s fattest humans, and the United States is by far the world’s largest purveyor of violence. Flesh eating has something to do with the situation, but is not the whole story. Americans are also history’s most sedentary people, and eat more “junk food” than any people on earth. When my father reversed his heart disease by our family going “health nut” in 1970, vegetarianism was not part of the regimen. Probably at least 90% of American health problems would disappear if Americans had live food (preferably organically grown) comprise at least 60-70% of their diets, and gave up tobacco and alcohol.

I became a vegetarian in 1978, going vegan, just to see what it might be like. Profound changes happened to my body, such as my body odor disappearing, and the next year was the only one during my college athletic career that I was not injured. I also lost ten pounds, as I did not even try to get any protein. I was vegan for eighteen months, and then I wanted to become an All-American in my event (the javelin throw), and I knew I could not do it at six foot, one inch and 142 pounds. I then ate six hard-boiled eggs a day and weight trained, and gained twenty pounds of muscle in three months during 1980, but my body odor also became fierce. I largely retained that muscle, and have been a vegetarian since 1987.

I was forced into giving up my vegetarian ways when I moved to Los Angeles to work in the high-rise world in 1983. After I left LA, I became a vegetarian again. Although I have not quite become a vegan again, my home diet has been virtually vegan for years, with cheese and eggs only eaten when I do not eat at home. One day, probably before long, I will become a vegan again. Although I never advertised that I was a vegetarian, it is difficult to hide that fact when I eat with other people. During the past fifteen years, people have continually called me a vegetarian (sometimes with disdain, sometimes with awe, and sometimes with humor), as if that described my primary relationship to food, and I thought it was the prescription for good health. Abstaining from flesh does not have much to do with a healthy diet. Vegetarians whose diets are mostly processed food are not eating very healthily. Eating steaks everyday is also not so good for people (and hell on the cow), but if I had to choose, not eating live food is more harmful to human health than eating flesh. Humans are the only animals that eat dead food, and the frequency of our degenerative diseases is also unique on earth (pets also eat dead food, and get human-style degenerative diseases).

Another misconception I wish to slay, which made me angriest at the work of those anti-vegetarian crusaders, is that probably less than one percent of vegetarians are the kind of activists that populate PETA and other militant organizations, such as those who “liberate” experimental animals by sabotaging laboratories. Animal experiments are evil business, and this will be a happier world when people stop killing animals to eat them, but the ends do not justify the means. Those vegetarian activists can be like those misguided “black bloc” protestors (for those who are not outright provocateurs) who have been at anti-globalization demonstrations, giving the police a convenient excuse to use billy clubs, plastic bullets and pepper spray on non-militant protestors. Those vegetarian militants are operating from the victim principle, not the creator principle. I have met many vegetarians, and never met a zealous or “doctrinaire” one (and neither has my wife, who is largely a vegetarian). The author of the “myths of vegetarianism” article, as well as his crusading pals, consistently portrays all vegetarians as fanatics, using the straw man tactic. No vegetarian I ever met preached to anybody else about vegetarianism. I have rarely gotten into “vegetarian-rap” with any of my “brethren.” They all considered their vegetarianism a personal and private decision.

Sometimes the vegetarians I met did it for health reasons (the owner of the medical lab I worked at did it for his health), and other times for ethical or spiritual reasons. All three reasons influence me today. The first time I became a vegetarian, it was for none of those reasons. The second and last time, it was for health. Flesh eating took a toll on my body that I could feel, and eating red meat made me sick, so even when I was forced into giving up my vegetarian ways for years, I avoided red meat whenever possible (just being around it can make me nauseous). Today, I am a vegetarian for ethical/spiritual reasons more than any other. My journey made me more aware and sensitive to the suffering of others, and I slowly came to realize that if I did not need to eat animals to live, I should not support robbing them of their lives. To decide to lessen our burden on the planet we live on and our fellow life forms is a profoundly personal and spiritual decision. As John Robbins and others have made clear, human carnivorism’s toll on earth’s environment is tremendous.[4] Spiritually advanced societies are mainly vegetarian, if not exclusively.

Because of the abuse I have received over the years for being a vegetarian, I understand how such treatment can make people fanatical. To create fanatics, oppressing people is effective, as America has seen with the World Trade Center attacks and other acts of “terrorism.”

As proto-humans left their arboreal habitat millions of years ago, they changed their diet and behavior. Tool making was about increasing their food supply, and when protohumans migrated beyond the tropics millions of years ago, killing animals and eating them was the primary substitute for their formerly fruit-eating, live food diet. Making weapons to kill animals more effectively is what allowed humans to migrate to earth’s farthest reaches. However, the same technology that allowed humans to migrate to hostile environments also allowed humans to kill each other.



Humanity’s murderous ways are directly related to its carnivorous ways.



With our great ape cousins, the carnivorous/murderous relationship is also seen. Chimpanzees are the most carnivorous great apes, with around 1% of their diet being mammal flesh, and perhaps 5% being insects. They are also the only great apes known to kill each other and engage in cannibalism. The mountain gorilla eats insects as the most carnivorous part of its diet. The great ape diet is two-thirds fruit, as the human diet should be. The human sweet tooth comes from our fruit-eating heritage.

Also, humans were a little too successful with their hunter-gatherer lifestyles, and killed off all of the planet’s easily killed large animals. About 10,000 years ago the hunter-gatherer lifestyle became unsustainable on a global basis, and the Domestication Revolution began.

The anti-vegetarian-crusader analysis of nutritional research needs to be considered in the context of their ardor. If people read their work, then read the work of John Robbins, Gabriel Cousens[5] or Gary Null, they can decide for themselves.[6] Being a vegetarian rarely, if ever, really endangers the health. There are some issues germane to the vegetarian path, such as vitamin B-12 (which is produced by bacteria living in dirt and on animals, and carnivorous humans can also have the deficiency), protein and some other nutrients, but nobody who puts forth some effort to become informed need much concern themselves with nutritional deficiencies. If all I ate were apples, then yes, I would develop nutritional deficiencies, but that is not what being a vegetarian means. There are also several definitions of vegetarianism, and some call those who eat fish and birds vegetarians, although I do not.[7]

People have different blood types, health histories and metabolisms, and each person needs to discover what is best for them. Pure fruit diets or pure brown rice diets are not ideal, and those are the kinds of extremes that can give people health problems and vegetarianism a bad name. I am allergic to spirulina, getting it by being disinformed by 1970s vegetarian researchers regarding how much protein I really needed. For me, getting enough protein is no big deal.

The general rule-of-thumb for an enlightened human diet is the less sentient the prey, the better off everybody is. The scale of greater-to-lesser violation of the prey is: humans, cetaceans (whales and dolphins, although they may be more sentient than humans), mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, insects, plants, microscopic organisms and fruit; eating fruit is actually a symbiotic relationship with the plant. Prey-cannibalism is the greatest violation of the spirit, while eating fruit is the other end of the spectrum.

Comparative anatomy studies clearly show that humans are ideally fruit eaters, which our great ape cousins demonstrate. Many in the anti-vegetarian crowd have compared humans to horses, rats and pigs, but the most meaningful comparison is obviously to our closest biological cousins. Classic omnivores, the bear, panda and raccoon particularly, were originally predators that adapted to eating vegetable matter, and their anatomy does not have much correspondence to human anatomy, especially regarding suitability for a carnivorous diet. From our teeth, jaws and saliva, to stomach acid volume and concentration, to intestinal length, humans are obviously not of carnivorous design. The adaptation to meat to extend the human range and numbers came with a price, warfare and violence only part of it.

Humans can be carnivorous, and have been for many millennia. However, there is also dramatic evidence of certain diseases disappearing when societies suddenly became vegetarians (such as Denmark under Nazi occupation during World War II – colon cancer nearly disappeared). There is plenty of literature and research on the health benefits of a vegetarian diet, but there are some risks, if it is not done with care. None are that serious, but they exist. Some education is recommended if a person wants to try a vegetarian diet.

Mystical students have long known that eating flesh lowers the spiritual awareness. Eastern masters have stated since ancient times that the less flesh consumed, the higher the enlightenment attained, and have advocated vegetarianism for the spiritual initiate. It partly has to do with the fear the animal experiences when it is killed. Sometimes, lowering the spiritual vibration can be useful. Channels often eat meat after channeling, to help “ground” them. Many also smoke or are overweight. Those are not ideal grounding mechanisms (I hike in the mountains with fifty pounds on my back to ground myself), although they work. Killing and eating animals definitely creates negative karma, which can directly affect the body.

Gandhi regularly discussed vegetarianism, and said that those who did so for “moral” reasons used vegetarianism to help them evolve to higher spiritual states, while those who merely did it for health reasons did it selfishly, received limited benefit from it, and were usually the ones who abandoned vegetarianism. He said that vegetarianism that was all about food and disease was, “the worst way of going about the business.” He also said,



“The Spiritualists hold, and the practice of the religious teachers of all religions… shows that nothing is more detrimental to the spiritual faculty of man than the gross feeding on flesh. The most ardent vegetarians attribute the agnosticism, materialism, and the religious indifference of the present age to too much flesh-eating and wine-drinking, and the consequent disappearance, partial or total, of the spiritual faculty in man.”[8]



What hit me between the eyes when reading that was that the two behaviors I was forced into doing when I began my career in Los Angeles was drinking alcohol and eating flesh. In retrospect, when I discovered how worthless my profession was, I wonder how “knowing” such behavior was. Not from a conspiratorial sense, but there is often a deadening of one’s humanity that accompanies the descent into the business world, and forcing people to drink alcohol and eat flesh was part of that process. Those in “the club” were unconscious, and were making sure I became like them. It was the most ruthless work environment I ever encountered, with the personal lives of my colleagues largely disasters.

Gandhi’s pacifist activism and his vegetarianism were no coincidence. Also, it is no coincidence that meat and alcohol (and formerly tobacco) are military and corporate staples. Fruit is the ideal food for spiritual reasons also, as eating fruit is a symbiosis with plants; it does not harm them and helps spread their seeds.

After years of being a vegetarian, a perspective gradually came into focus as I looked at flesh food: it is a carcass, once part of a living, breathing creature, one not much different than me. Today, I have a visceral revulsion toward meat eating that far exceeds any thoughts I might have about its effect on my health or spirit. There is no will power in my vegetarian ways, as I can barely fathom putting flesh in my mouth. I am not laying that trip on anybody else, but that is a “hazard” of being a long-time vegetarian: flesh eating can eventually be seen as disgusting, horrifying, and a cousin to cannibalism. I passed the point-of-no-return in the 1980s.

For those who feel they must eat animal flesh, the most spiritual and ethical way of doing it is to look the animal in the eye while taking its life, and thanking it. Eating it raw and on the spot is also the “natural” way to do it. Anything less is not being a true carnivore. If that style of carnivorous behavior seems revolting, then it might be helpful to ponder why, as that is the most ethical, spiritual and healthy way to eat flesh. People can also get parasites that way, which is another reason humans are not ideal carnivores; true carnivores have far more acid and a far more acidic pH in their stomachs, which kills parasites. Cooking flesh destroys a great deal of its nutritional value, and is another unnatural human practice.

Vegetarianism is part of the path to a healed humanity and planet, and some of humanity’s darker possible futures have animal abuse as signposts of their degeneration, but nobody should be coerced, bribed or deceived into the practice. It is a deeply personal issue, and one that all people need to decide for themselves.

Footnotes

[1] The article was Stephen Byrnes’ “The Myths of Vegetarianism” in the Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients, July 2000, pp. 72-81.

[2] See Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients, October 2000, pp. 93-94.

[3] They then engaged in an advertising campaign (they have arrogated the pioneering work of Weston Price, but that is a story for another time - in 2009, John Robbins weighed in on the issue). They had an ad for their material in Nexus Magazine, in the January-February 2001 issue, p. 70, and their headline nearly said it all: “Confused about nutrition? We set the record straight.” That is a bold claim. Then their ad purported to debunk myths about nutrition, and the first “myth” they debunked was, “Animal fats cause cancer and heart disease.” Their “truth” was that animal fats “protect” against cancer and heart disease, and vegetable oils cause it. The Beef Council could not have said it better.

[4] See Robbins’ Diet for a New America.

[5] See his Conscious Eating.

[6] See, for instance, Gary Null’s The Vegetarian Handbook and John Robbins’ The Food Revolution.

[7] See Gary Null’s The Vegetarian Handbook, p.4.

[8] Mohandas K. Gandhi, in a speech given before the London Vegetarian Society. See Ethical Vegetarianism, edited by Kerry Walters and Lisa Portmess, pp. 136-144.

[Daughter of Time]

I think it's wonderful that we are questioning more and more what we put into our bodies and becoming more aware of what's best for our bodies, the animals and the environment, even if this subject does ruffle feathers on a regular basis.

In an ideal world, we would all learn to become vegetarians naturally, without forcing ourselves to do so, without suffering the consequences of shocking the body to accept a different lifestyle, But we do not live in an ideal world and tolerance is required for the time being. To ask a carnivore to suddenly become vegan is quite unreasonable as the body might go into a state of shock and suffer tremendously and become very ill.

The masses eat McDonald's. I do not judge them, but I do question their colossal ignorance. Do they really realize what they're putting into their bodies and how detrimental those eating habits are to themselves and the planet in general? If they really did understand, would they still do it?

Sometimes the mind and the soul reach a level of understanding whereby they know that eating meat is not necessarily the ideal way to feed oneself. But the body is often left behind, not reaching the same level of consciousness as the mind and the soul, thereby still needing to feed on animals as it was used to. Instead of judging the body and depriving it of its needs, let the changes come gradually. First learn to eat less meat and make sure it comes from a local farm where animals are treated humanely, where they are allowed to feed, roam and play on large pastures, where the killing is done with as little trauma as possible.

Years ago I was invited to a dinner party where the host is a Buddhist and so were most of the guests. There was a meat dish on the buffet table. I was quite surprised. Some Buddhists eat meat, not because they want to, but because their bodies have not caught up with their minds.

I feel it is far worse to judge another for their needs than to feed the body what it needs while it needs it.

Developing mindfulness is what's most important: mindfulness in what we put into our bodies, mindfulness in judging others, mindfulness in realizing that people will have to grow at their own paces.

I feel there is nothing wrong with discussing our eating lifestyles provided that ideas are exchanged without judgment. If you're a vegetarian, please do not judge omnivores. If you're an omnivore, please do not make fun of vegetarians.

And I have not read the book discussed in the OP but I probably will. Not every body is meant to be vegetarian, at least, not at this point in time and under the planet's current level of consciousness.

So let us learn to accept each other whether we agree with each other or not, and maybe some day we will all reach a level of consciousness whereby we know exactly what our bodies need and we learn to recognize when we are ready to make favorable changes and gently nudge others to make those changes as well, without judgment, without anger, without self-righteousness, but with understanding and heart.

Some excellent points. However I think you are making a bit of a stretch where you refer to so many "bodies" not being ready for a vegetarian diet. What exactly do you base that on? If someone makes an educated and nutritionally complete switch to vegetarianism then the switch is simply one of overcoming mental cravings, I can attest to this with my own experience. As I was not (nor am I yet) in any special enlightened state which allows me to not eat meat. I had no issues with my body craving meat,due to missing nutrients as I was making sure to get all the necessary nutrients in my vegetarian diet. I had cravings for the taste of things like hot wings. But found so many ways to satisfy that tasting experience (which is derived mostly from spice and not the chicken itself, via vegetarian options. A matter of change in habits. Still not the easiest change I agree. But I fear when you say that someone may not have a body ready for vegetarianism, that you open a similar window as the above article. One which allows someone to feel they don't have a choice in what they eat. When the fact is excluding extreme medical conditions we all have the choice. And we all have some responsibility for that choice.

All I meant to say is that some people simply don't do well on a vegetarian diet even when following all the protocols of vegetarianism. Their bodies don't do well. Their energy levels drop. They feel sickly. I know people who have repeatedly tried to be vegetarians but their bodies did not operate as well as they did before becoming vegetarians. Maybe they have conditions they are not aware of. Maybe they gave up too soon. I don't know.

These discussions still seem to instigate adversity so perhaps I should simply learn to stay away from threads about vegetarianism in the future.

I certainly meant no hostility towards you. I do differ with your opinion, where you say that it is a common occurrence that one who switches to a nutritionally complete vegetarian diet often will experiance problems, lack of energy, sickness ect. I would say that if someone switches to any kind of diet that is nutritionally unbalanced, then yes there will be problems. I will also say that a vegan diet is the most difficult diet as far as ensuring that you get everything the body needs, (however a non vegan vegetarian diet, on the other hand, is a pretty easy these days). But as I stated before it is a fact that entire civilizations have been living vegetarian for hundreds if not thousands of years. Not just the enlightened yogis of India but the beggars and thieves as well. Body is one thing and spirit is another. And the human body in this day in age does not need meat to survive. It doesn't matter what state your consciousness is at. If you give your body the nutrients it needs you will live and thrive. It does not matter whether you get those nutrients from a plant based diet or a meat based one. And again while I know you did not mean it this way, I feel the need to say that the idea that a magority of bodies are not able to handle a vegetarian diet (note there are some extreme medical cases), is dangerous because it might allow people on the fence to assume that "hey my body probably isn't meant for a vegetarian diet", and therefor feel they have an excuse to bypass the ethical and personally responsible decision to choose what they eat.

One clarification upon further thought. There are some extreme examples of breatharians transcending the needs of the body and living off air and sunlight. And one could argue that "hey if they can live off sunlight and others can't, then maybe some people can live off veggies while others cannot". But these people make up a .0001 percent of the population. And you could say they have achieved a mystic power to a large degree, which enables their abilities. Do you need mystic powers to be a vegetarian? I doubt it because I just saw a commercial that said you can now get veggie burgers at Burger King..... Point, not everyone can be a breatharian, but this is on such a different level then veggies vs meat that it hardly applies


Lastly..... You say that you have personally known people who have switched to and followed nutritionally complete vegetarian diets, and watched them become ill, weak, sickly and so on. Sorry but I don't buy it..... Even if they became sick while being vegetarian, there are so many other unrelated things that could have made them sick. Vegetarianism far from insures perfect health. People are quick to blame an illness on it however especially if they recently made a switch in diets. Can u really say with certainty that they got ill from a lack of meat? Also if they were someone who was questioning what they eat and where it came from, and as a result, trying a less violent diet, don't you think they would be at a conscious level( if in fact the average person needs to raise their consciousness level to be vegetarian) to do just that and at least live off veggies ( which I repeat is no great mystic or spiritual feat)?

I do realize that you meant no hostility towards me. Thank you.

And although I stated I should probably not engage in further discussions on vegetarianism, I feel I should reply to your post.

I am very aware that there are cultures and civilizations which have existed on vegetarianism for thousands of years and they are doing perfectly well. If these cultures were to suddenly switch to eating meat, their bodies would probably not like it.

I believe it is the same for those who have tried to switch to vegetarianism and failed. If they and their ancestors were used to eating meat, upon introducing a vegetarian lifestyle, the body reacted. The mind wanted to, but the body rebelled. Perhaps the cause is in their genetic memories which dictates that something crucial to their survival is missing. Perhaps all it would take is a period of adjustment. And since adjustment takes time and commitment, many give up too soon, thinking that their bodies are simply not ready for this type of change. I imagine the reactions to getting sick are similar to those of withdrawal symptoms from a substance that the body is used to receiving on a regular basis. This is why I stated that sometimes the mind and the soul wish to take this leap and the body has not caught up.

Of all the people I know who switched from eating meat to vegetarianism, most have done extremely well and are very happy with the change. But some have done very poorly even though they followed the same protocols as those who did well.

I also know a number of people (children of 1960's parents) who were brought up on vegetarianism and when they became adults, they switched to eating meat. Some went back to vegetarianism because meat made them feel sick and some remained meat eaters because it made them feel better.

Individuals have individual needs. I love my vegetarian friends as much as I love my omnivorous friends and when they tell me that they do well on some foods and poorly on other foods, I believe them. I don't do well on meat, but I do well on fish. I don't do well on legumes and grains, but I do well on fruits and vegetables. I don't do well on dairy, but I do well on eggs. I went on a raw vegan diet for 6 months and I did rather poorly on it. I had to give it up on account of very low energy and weight gain (probably from too much sugar from fruits and too much fat from nuts). Those are my individual needs so I follow what makes me feel best.

[Swan]

The important thing is to listen to ones body; what it needs to thrive.

I don´t think it is healthy to allow the head to make decisions about what the body should eat based on an idea of what is "right" and "wrong".

Most people, and I am one of them, really need to work on listening to their bodies. At this point in time my body thrives on raw vegetables, fruit, seeds and cooked meat and fish.
So that´s what I´m eating.

[music]

Just throwing this in the mix, plants can "bite back" in various ways, this article illustrates some. If you are interested in your health, look into fermentation and other ancient food preparation practices.



Living With Phytic Acid

Written by Ramiel Nagel

Friday, 26 March 2010 16:09




Preparing Grains, Nuts, Seeds and Beans for Maximum Nutrition

Phytic acid in grains, nuts, seeds and beans represents a serious problem in our diets. This problem exists because we have lost touch with our ancestral heritage of food preparation. Instead we listen to food gurus and ivory tower theorists who promote the consumption of raw and unprocessed “whole foods;” or, we eat a lot of high-phytate foods like commercial whole wheat bread and all-bran breakfast cereals. But raw is definitely not Nature’s way for grains, nuts, seeds and beans. . . and even some tubers, like yams; nor are quick cooking or rapid heat processes like extrusion.

Phytic acid is the principal storage form of phosphorus in many plant tissues, especially the bran portion of grains and other seeds. It contains the mineral phosphorus tightly bound in a snowflake-like molecule. In humans and animals with one stomach, the phosphorus is not readily bioavailable. In addition to blocking phosphorus availability, the “arms” of the phytic acid molecule readily bind with other minerals, such as calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc, making them unavailable as well. In this form, the compound is referred to as phytate.

Phytic acid not only grabs on to or chelates important minerals, but also inhibits enzymes that we need to digest our food, including pepsin,1 needed for the breakdown of proteins in the stomach, and amylase,2 needed for the breakdown of starch into sugar. Trypsin, needed for protein digestion in the small intestine, is also inhibited by phytates.3

Through observation I have witnessed the powerful anti-nutritional effects of a diet high in phytate-rich grains on my family members, with many health problems as a result, including tooth decay, nutrient deficiencies, lack of appetite and digestive problems.

The presence of phytic acid in so many enjoyable foods we regularly consume makes it imperative that we know how to prepare these foods to neutralize phytic acid content as much as possible, and also to consume them in the context of a diet containing factors that mitigate the harmful effects of phytic acid.

Full article here (http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/living-with-phytic-acid) PDF of article available at the link.

[ThePythonicCow]

Just throwing this in the mix, plants can "bite back" in various ways, this article illustrates some. If you are interested in your health, look into fermentation and other ancient food preparation practices.



Living With Phytic Acid

Written by Ramiel Nagel

Friday, 26 March 2010 16:09




Preparing Grains, Nuts, Seeds and Beans for Maximum Nutrition

Phytic acid in grains, nuts, seeds and beans represents a serious problem in our diets.

Full article here (http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/living-with-phytic-acid) PDF of article available at the link.
Aha - thanks!

I had been munching raw cashews, and wondering why they sat a bit heavy in my gut.

Oops.

Time to look into soaking them.

[Akasha]

Thanks Music but that link doesn't work, so I've linked to it here (http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/living-with-phytic-acid). Interesting stuff. Looks like I need to get more into the sour dough method when baking my bread!

[music]

Thanks Akasha. Sour dough is the only way to go! My little fella and I are just about to knead some loaves now - wholemeal spelt with a killer starter that I'd forgotten in the back of my fridge that smells like good wine! Quick sourdough recipe - at night: 5 cups flour, 1.5 cups starter, 4 cups lukewarm water, cover with muslin in a warm place. In the morning: replenish starter and refrigerate, add 1/2 cup oil, 1 tblsp salt, 5 - 6 cups flour. Kneading process is a lot less strenuous than with ordinary bread. Form into 2 loaves, rise for 2 hours, slit tops, spritz tops with water, cook for 20 min at 425 deg F, then spritz again, cook at 325 deg F for 50 min - 1 hour. Ask around friends to obtain a starter, or make your own. Bread recipe adapted from Tasajara Bread Book.

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Just throwing this in the mix, plants can "bite back" in various ways, this article illustrates some. If you are interested in your health, look into fermentation and other ancient food preparation practices.



Living With Phytic Acid

Written by Ramiel Nagel

Friday, 26 March 2010 16:09




Preparing Grains, Nuts, Seeds and Beans for Maximum Nutrition

Phytic acid in grains, nuts, seeds and beans represents a serious problem in our diets.

Full article here PDF of article available at the link.
Aha - thanks!

I had been munching raw cashews, and wondering why they sat a bit heavy in my gut.

Oops.

Time to look into soaking them.

Oats too. Put oats for next day in water overnight, with a pinch of salt. A very mild fermentation takes place that opens the grain for us.

[ThePythonicCow]

Thanks Music but that link doesn't work, so I've linked to it here (http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/living-with-phytic-acid).
Thanks for noticing the broken link. I fixed it, using the URL you provided.

[Carmen]

Thank you Dynamo. You are a breath of fresh air and the book sounds great. There is only one way to bring back dry,desert like land to health and vitality again and that through animals. Land in the USA and anywhere else where animals have been removed to "protect" land has degragated more than where animals are farmed. Nature used to support vast herds of bison in America and their vital partner were the predators that preyed on them. This kept the herds mobbed for safety and also moving. No land was set stocked, the animals moved constantly.

This argument between veggies and carnivores is just bollucks! If we don't reintroduce animals, mob grazed to these dry deserts the deserts will continue to increase. I don't care if people are meat eaters or vegetarian. Read up, research this topic! The natural world needs us to wise up! We have been sold a crock of ****! The world needs its animals for the health of its plants, soil and waterways. The evidence is out there. Research Holistic Management! It the hope of this world and I'm absolutely serious about this. There is plenty to see on the Internet on this subject. The Savory Institute would be a great place to investigate.

[Swan]

Phytic acid in grains, nuts, seeds and beans represents a serious problem in our diets. This problem exists because we have lost touch with our ancestral heritage of food preparation. Instead we listen to food gurus and ivory tower theorists who promote the consumption of raw and unprocessed “whole foods;” or, we eat a lot of high-phytate foods like commercial whole wheat bread and all-bran breakfast cereals. But raw is definitely not Nature’s way for grains, nuts, seeds and beans. . . and even some tubers, like yams; nor are quick cooking or rapid heat processes like extrusion.


Full article here (http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/living-with-phytic-acid) PDF of article available at the link.

Thank you Music,

That is interesting. A couple of weeks ago I was eating a lot of nuts, but noticed I wasn´t feeling too good. Still learning about raw food. I must say I feel great not eating grains!

[Metaphor]

Veganism and vegetarianism is an extreme solution for an extreme problem. If the population were lowered (no, not culled) to a harmonius number, and not screwing this planet up, we´d probably be living in abundance, not making politics of food.
This whole discussion is as mentioned before very unproductive and just creates more emotional drama. Why bother? Not to bash th OP, but before posting something consider what you are putting to birth. There is probably like a zillion threads on the internets on vegetarians vs carnivores, all infected with polarized thinking and emotional reactions.
That aside I´d probably could contribute a lot to the discussion, being a vegetarian chef, but eating meat myself. Just drop the drama, it´s just food. Babies, children and young girls just don´t simply die because of vegetarian diet or lack of meat. They die because of erring parents or/ and in combination of disease. Just don´t buy the propagande- from either side. Keep it private, not polarized. Just like sex.

[HORIZONS]

The truth is also that life isn't possible without death, that no matter what you eat, someone has to die to feed you.

The principle of life coming forth from death can be seen in every area of our existence. Out of death emerges life is a paradox that can be seen over and over again on every level of the physical and the spiritual. It is the story of the Phoenix retold in a myriad of ways. IMHO...Even the story of the death and resurrection of Christ is the same story of new life being birthed from the state of death - and so we see that this is true for as well, and it is all around us. What we eat is a choice - the process of death and life are not.

[conk]

Raw nuts and seeds must be soaked in clean water to rid them of the unhealthy elements. Overnight is best, then the body can use them properly.

[northstar]

This whole discussion is as mentioned before very unproductive and just creates more emotional drama. Why bother? Not to bash th OP, but before posting something consider what you are putting to birth. There is probably like a zillion threads on the internets on vegetarians vs carnivores, all infected with polarized thinking and emotional reactions.


I've been getting a lot of good insight and helpful information from this thread.

Personally, even though conflict can make people feel uncomfortable, I think vigorous discussion and informed disagreement is an awesome thing. It has the potential to open minds and change behavior.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Raw nuts and seeds must be soaked in clean water to rid them of the unhealthy elements. Overnight is best, then the body can use them properly.

Thanks!! I read the article on the Weston Price website but it was extremely long and involved.

"Soak raw nuts and seeds overnight" is good simple advice that is easy to follow.
:)

[Akasha]

Personally, even though conflict can make people feel uncomfortable, I think vigorous discussion and informed disagreement is an awesome thing. It has the potential to open minds and change behavior.


Discourse is sometimes discourteous but divination is always divine.

[WhiteFeather]

If i may interject here. Humans are not even close to being carnivores.

A. Our teeth are not designed to eat raw meat. Humans chew food sideways, while carnivores chomp up and down.
B. We do not have claws and jaws to tear/rip into the flesh of our catch, much like any carniverous animals do. Hence the lion.
C. When we eat meat, we have to cook it first so we can chew it and digest it. Thereby after cooking it, we literally destroy most of the nutrients, dont we. What a waste ehh?
D. If we are directly related to the Ape/Hominid family, do Apes indulge in meat?

So are we carnivores or herbivores from these facts i listed?

FWIW.....I have been a vegetarian for over 3 years, and havent felt better since reverting back to our normal herbivore state. And mysteriously, i havent had heartburn since.

[lunaflare]

Right on Akasha.
Discourse is sometimes discordant...

[Mu2143]

...............................

[roo777]

me and my children started naturally just not eating most meats because we felt it didnt resonatew ith us. if someting doesnt resonate with your being, why put it in your body? the body knows far more than u do. makes sense to me. u r what u eat. literally..

[Akasha]

.......but divination is always divine.

divination (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/divination)

div·i·na·tion
[div-uh-ney-shuhn] Show IPA

noun
1. the practice of attempting to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge by occult or supernatural means.

2. augury; prophecy: The divination of the high priest was fulfilled.

3. perception by intuition; instinctive foresight.

I was referring to the 3rd definition you listed, Mu2143. In my experience perception is clarified when coming from the heart since it is (metaphorically speaking) the conduit for love which, imho, is the divine.

(sorry for veering off topic)

[blufire]

If i may interject here. Humans are not even close to being carnivores.

A. Our teeth are not designed to eat raw meat. Humans chew food sideways, while carnivores chomp up and down.
B. We do not have claws and jaws to tear/rip into the flesh of our catch, much like any carniverous animals do. Hence the lion.
C. When we eat meat, we have to cook it first so we can chew it and digest it. Thereby after cooking it, we literally destroy most of the nutrients, dont we. What a waste ehh?
D. If we are directly related to the Ape/Hominid family, do Apes indulge in meat?

So are we carnivores or herbivores from these facts i listed?

FWIW.....I have been a vegetarian for over 3 years, and havent felt better since reverting back to our normal herbivore state. And mysteriously, i havent had heartburn since.



Neither . . . . humans are omnivores


20981

and yes apes do eat meat

[Alan]

I was able to pickup this book at the library this weekend, and it is indeed terrific.

I don't suppose anyone here is interested in discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of the book??

[Soulboy]

After I finished school, waiting for my first term at uni to begin, I was looking around for a summer job and thought why not head to the local sausage manufacturing plant (expressed this way to prevent any jokers from "funny" play of words or innuendo) and I got about 5 metres into the factory when the smell had me running out backwards. It was literally the most vile thing I have ever smelled (and yes, my chemistry teacher once let me smell ammonia straight, no ice. I have also been near a sulphuric gusher once). It was just awful and pretty offputting.

Then, I worked at a deli place, driving to the local slaughterhouse at 4am to fetch supplies for the shop twice a week. It's almost someone wanted to tell me something that early in life, haha. Walking around in ankle-deep puddles of blood with special boots on, past people spatterd full of cow's, pig's and sheep's blood, seeing dead cows being cut in half with chainsaws, I started to think that maybe this is not for me and soon after turned vegetarian when I picked up Hatha Yoga.

The original idea or motivation came from a Robert Anton Wilson book I was reading at the time (around age 18 or so), in which he stated how good he felt when he was vegetarian or something like that. So I tried it for 3 weeks, felt as good as never before and have never looked back since. But I do realise it's not for everyone, different blood types and all that. Suits me fine, though. My skin looks and feels better, digestion has much improved, ability to concentrate has gone up by a lot and this experiment has now been running for well over 15 years. I'm very happy with that decision I made back then. 'Imagine that, a vegetarian German' is the reply I always get, but what is little known is that Germany has the highest ratio of veggies of any nation in Europe (or at least it did at some point, may have changed since I last checked the statistics)

BUT to each their own and I will not read that book, all in the sense of denying myself information that could prove me wrong about this...

[naste.de.lumina]

I have no intention to enter into religious discussion. Just a digression.
I read somewhere, can not remember where, that the forbidden fruit represented by the apple was actually meat.
That is when humans began eating meat of dead animals.
After I read the consumption of meat, especially red meat, creates a layer of fat around our pineal gland.
So I called the points. The consequence of eating meat is the loss of capacity of our natural satellite to capture extra sensory signals that would connect with the more subtle energies and high.
It makes some sense to me.
If this is true I do not know, because I could not stop eating meat.
But I'm slowing and hopefully will soon permanently eliminate from my diet.

[Knowrainknowrainbows!]

:hungry:
I have not eaten red meat or poultry in over a year and soon it will be a year I stopped eating fish. I'm not saying I find it easy to resist the delicious aroma of all the wonderful seasonings on well-prepared meat/foul/fish; Actually it requires that I function at a more conscious level every day. It's a lifestyle ... healthier for me, simple as that.

I feel better, lost about 10 lbs soon after giving up meat and poultry. Because I eat more vegetables, my digestive system is much improved and skin is less oily.

In my 50's and I am changing. I love animals (people, too) and will not regress. I will not stand in judgement of others ... I just know what is right for me.
Like WhiteFeather, I believe our teeth are indicators of what type of "fuel" our bodies were designed to ingest.... many more teeth for grinding and "mashing" plant-like materials than canines to rip and shred flesh.

Not interested in the book ... my priorities are elsewhere.

Best to all in the quest for health,
KRKR

[Soulboy]

If i may interject here. Humans are not even close to being carnivores.

A. Our teeth are not designed to eat raw meat. Humans chew food sideways, while carnivores chomp up and down.
B. We do not have claws and jaws to tear/rip into the flesh of our catch, much like any carniverous animals do. Hence the lion.
C. When we eat meat, we have to cook it first so we can chew it and digest it. Thereby after cooking it, we literally destroy most of the nutrients, dont we. What a waste ehh?
D. If we are directly related to the Ape/Hominid family, do Apes indulge in meat?



E. All carnivorous animals have a gastric acid 7 times more concentrated/ potent or whatever than that of human beings to dissolve meat in the stomach. I felt digestion becoming much less of a struggle after becoming vegetarian. And you won't hear me grunting in pain from the restroom, but may suspect I only went for number one when in fact I took care of some big business, that is how quick things have been ever since.

[bruno dante]

If i may interject here. Humans are not even close to being carnivores.

A. Our teeth are not designed to eat raw meat. Humans chew food sideways, while carnivores chomp up and down.
B. We do not have claws and jaws to tear/rip into the flesh of our catch, much like any carniverous animals do. Hence the lion.
C. When we eat meat, we have to cook it first so we can chew it and digest it. Thereby after cooking it, we literally destroy most of the nutrients, dont we. What a waste ehh?
D. If we are directly related to the Ape/Hominid family, do Apes indulge in meat?

So are we carnivores or herbivores from these facts i listed?

FWIW.....I have been a vegetarian for over 3 years, and havent felt better since reverting back to our normal herbivore state. And mysteriously, i havent had heartburn since.


It's always interesting when the vegetarians give us the 'scientific' reasons behind our alleged omnivorous nature:wink:

A. Ive never paid too much attention to the way I chew, but I have to say that I'm more of a up n down chewer than a side to side chewer. Either way it's irrelevant. My teeth are designed to eat meat just fine. I've been doing it quite well for 36 years. It's pretty simple: I spear the chunk of meat with my fork, put it in my mouth, chew and swallow. I've never had any problems.

B. I don't have claws, that's true. But I buy my meat from grocery stores so I don't have to worry about that. The physical attribute that humans possess and that vegetarians fail to recognize as an evolutionary indicator of preference is the human intellect. We have thumbs and we build tools and weapons. We use those weapons to shoot and kill the animals.

C. We don't have to cook the meat. Contrary to popular opinion, meat can be eaten very safely raw. I do it twice a week. Steak Tartar anyone? It's delicious, I can assure you. And I've never suffered any ill effects, except a little diarrhea when I first started. Cooking does kill the nutrients, that's true...and what important nutrients they are! Coenzyme q10 and lcarnitine to name a couple (most abundant in meat than anywhere else), which are the nutrients that are keeping the mitochondria in your cells buzzing. Organ meats in particular are heavy in these life-giving nutrients.

I've been eating this way for 10 years, and I feel great!

To each his own, I always say. Whatever works for you, do that!!! Pretty simple.

[Lettherebelight]

..........

[Abhaya]

If i may interject here. Humans are not even close to being carnivores.

A. Our teeth are not designed to eat raw meat. Humans chew food sideways, while carnivores chomp up and down.
B. We do not have claws and jaws to tear/rip into the flesh of our catch, much like any carniverous animals do. Hence the lion.
C. When we eat meat, we have to cook it first so we can chew it and digest it. Thereby after cooking it, we literally destroy most of the nutrients, dont we. What a waste ehh?
D. If we are directly related to the Ape/Hominid family, do Apes indulge in meat?

So are we carnivores or herbivores from these facts i listed?

FWIW.....I have been a vegetarian for over 3 years, and havent felt better since reverting back to our normal herbivore state. And mysteriously, i havent had heartburn since.


It's always interesting when the vegetarians give us the 'scientific' reasons behind our alleged omnivorous nature:wink:

A. Ive never paid too much attention to the way I chew, but I have to say that I'm more of a up n down chewer than a side to side chewer. Either way it's irrelevant. My teeth are designed to eat meat just fine. I've been doing it quite well for 36 years. It's pretty simple: I spear the chunk of meat with my fork, put it in my mouth, chew and swallow. I've never had any problems.

B. I don't have claws, that's true. But I buy my meat from grocery stores so I don't have to worry about that. The physical attribute that humans possess and that vegetarians fail to recognize as an evolutionary indicator of preference is the human intellect. We have thumbs and we build tools and weapons. We use those weapons to shoot and kill the animals.

C. We don't have to cook the meat. Contrary to popular opinion, meat can be eaten very safely raw. I do it twice a week. Steak Tartar anyone? It's delicious, I can assure you. And I've never suffered any ill effects, except a little diarrhea when I first started. Cooking does kill the nutrients, that's true...and what important nutrients they are! Coenzyme q10 and lcarnitine to name a couple (most abundant in meat than anywhere else), which are the nutrients that are keeping the mitochondria in your cells buzzing. Organ meats in particular are heavy in these life-giving nutrients.

I've been eating this way for 10 years, and I feel great!

To each his own, I always say. Whatever works for you, do that!!! Pretty simple.


Ahh you bring up a great point,(although I draw a very different conclusion from it) one that I have tried to point out in the past, probably earlier on this thread too. The most important evelotionary leap, one which trumps jaw structure, stomach acid levels and the like, is the human intellect. We have the ability to think about what we do. We often liken to think of our selves as higher thinking beings. So if that's true, then it's no stretch to say, that as one of the reasonable creatures in this cosmos we are obliged to try to be as kind as possible. A simple step we can take in this direction is the choice to consume in the least violent way, that we in our individual circumstances are able to do. We can choose not to kill and eat that which experiances high levels of pain and fear like the cow. While in some cases we may need to do this to survive. In most cases, like you point out, our eating habits depend on what we choose off the shelf at the supermarket. Not really a matter of survival. Often in all honestly a matter of taste. It's never been easier to eat a less cruel diet. No excuses really, other then some medical cases I suppose. So any way lets use our intellects to be as kind in our eating habits as we can. Apathy towards what you eat is an ugly thing.

[Akasha]

In the following video from Harley Johnstone (banana extraordinaire DurianRider) Leirre can be heard coming out with all manner of nonsense especially with regard to her "I was a vegan for 20 years" claim but by no means only that.

MnwcL3Ug1ls

[Sidney]

I know this is a bit off point, but I felt this mans pain,.,., the grief he endures daily, over the mass murder of those 40,000 elephants. You can see the sadness in his eyes. He wants so badly to make their deaths, be not in vain, and his efforts should be appreciated whether or not they are 100% correct. Perhaps his theory may not be 100% corrects, for all terrains that need to be addressed, but if many many people with the same passion and intent that he puts forth, the theories can be tweaked, in order to find real sustainable answers to the ongoing challenges.

on a side note: if they stop spraying chemtrails, which destroy and manipulate soil ph, that might be a good place to start.

[Abhaya]

In the following video from Harley Johnstone (banana extraordinaire DurianRider) Leirre can be heard coming out with all manner of nonsense especially with regard to her "I was a vegan for 20 years" claim but by no means only that.

MnwcL3Ug1ls

Great find! Some absurd contradictions on the authors part to say the least.

[Alan]

In the following video from Harley Johnstone (banana extraordinaire DurianRider) Leirre can be heard coming out with all manner of nonsense especially with regard to her "I was a vegan for 20 years" claim but by no means only that.

I couldn't make it through 5 minutes of this video, it was so ridiculous. Reading the video's reviews is much more interesting than the video itself.

You really should consider reading her book, it's eye opening. Vegetarians are in denial about the damage that grain agriculture is doing to the planet; ignoring this does not make it go away.

[Peace4all]

*Sigh*
These threads truly don't go anywhere do they.. same people arguing with their same "facts"
People are going to eat what they want to eat.
I too became vegetarian about 6 months ago...after having diarreah for 10+ years straight, it has vanished.. which is why I am staying veg.. must be a coincidence.
alamojo, are you saying vegetarians consume more grains then people who eat meat?

Oh no! Your telling me I'm not saving the planet by being vegetarian? What were we thinking? Lets go eat some cow.:rolleyes:

Also, the "truth" about vegetarianism, is just one persons truth isn't it?
We all have different versions of truth, its perception.
For example my truth is bombs are evil, they kill people and destroy the planet.. On the other hand Obama's truth is they protect us, keep us safe from the "bad" guys and protect the planet from terrorists.

My truth is I feel much better physically, and mentally being vegetarian.

[Alan]

If you don't want to read the whole book this article might be considered the "Reader's Digest" version:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/the-truth-about-vegetarianism.aspx

[Abhaya]

Sooo we mass produce cows which eat untold amounts of grains of which only 10 percent of the grain energy is passed on when we slaughter the cow. And vegetarians are causing problems with grains???

Also you say you give more credit to the YouTube comments on the video then to the video itself.. ( because surely you tube comments on any thing vegetarian related are probably enlightening). But perhaps you can address some of the points that the awesome darian rider brings up and say why they are so rediculous. I found it to be quite the opposite

Also I might point out that mr riders critique is of inconsistencies specific to the authors medical and other claims and is not in any way a direct or crass attack on non vegetarians. You however replied with a broad attack on vegetarians. Unrelated to the video.

Your taking one from the page of us self righteous vegans :p

[Alan]

You however replied with a broad attack on vegetarians.

Where did I attack vegetarians?? I said they were in denial, hardly an attack.

[ROMANWKT]

Anybody serious about expanding themselves spiritually, will not achieve any height with dead meat or lower consciousness within their body, dropping meat and other life forms from within yourself is part of your purification.

Regards to all, and no I don't eat meat

roman

[Sgt-Bones]

Anybody serious about expanding themselves spiritually, will not achieve any height with dead meat or lower consciousness within their body, dropping meat and other life forms from within yourself is part of your purification.

Regards to all, and no I don't eat meat

roman

No offence my friend, but do you have ANY evidence to support that claim?

Please note that responding with "some spiritual guru who wrote a book/blog or made a YT video told me so" will not be accepted as a legitimate form of evidence in this instance.

Interested to see what you come up with here.......enlighten me :)

[ROMANWKT]

Anybody serious about expanding themselves spiritually, will not achieve any height with dead meat or lower consciousness within their body, dropping meat and other life forms from within yourself is part of your purification.

Regards to all, and no I don't eat meat

roman

No offence my friend, but do you have ANY kind of evidence to support that claim?

Please note that responfing with "some spiritual guru who wrote a book/blog or made a YT video told me so" will not be accepted as a legitimate form of evidence in this instance.

Interested to see what you come up with here.......enlighten me :)

HI bones

No offence ever taken, I am At work, will give info later

regards

roman

[Peace4all]

Anybody serious about expanding themselves spiritually, will not achieve any height with dead meat or lower consciousness within their body, dropping meat and other life forms from within yourself is part of your purification.

Regards to all, and no I don't eat meat

roman

No offence my friend, but do you have ANY kind of evidence to support that claim?

Please note that responfing with "some spiritual guru who wrote a book/blog or made a YT video told me so" will not be accepted as a legitimate form of evidence in this instance.

Interested to see what you come up with here.......enlighten me :)

Agree with you there BONES, but wheres the evidence it doesn't?
Goes both ways doesn't it?
How about this, everyone eat what makes you feel good and healthy!
And honestly Alamajo you need to get a grip my friend, saying all vegetarians are in denial is an absurd statement. Think a bit before you post such a statement..
No one here is saying "All meat eaters hate animals"
Thread is getting a wee bit off topic isn't it?

[Fred Steeves]

For what it's worth, I've yet to see a vegetarian vs. meat eater thread that didn't eventually devolve into a silly food fight. :no:

[Wind]

Can't we all just get along? :)

[Sgt-Bones]

Agree with you there BONES, but wheres the evidence it doesn't?
Goes both ways doesn't it?

Fair comment. Although, the difference here is that I haven't made any claims/statements one way or the other regarding the topic of discussion in this thread.

I guess I just find it interesting how others have formulated such strong opinions/beliefs... perhaps they would benefit from questioning where those beliefs/opinions are coming from?


How about this, everyone eat what makes you feel good and healthy!

Sounds like a good plan to me.

Yeah... I think everyone should just run with that :)

[Agape]

Anybody serious about expanding themselves spiritually, will not achieve any height with dead meat or lower consciousness within their body, dropping meat and other life forms from within yourself is part of your purification.

Regards to all, and no I don't eat meat

roman

No offence my friend, but do you have ANY kind of evidence to support that claim?

Please note that responfing with "some spiritual guru who wrote a book/blog or made a YT video told me so" will not be accepted as a legitimate form of evidence in this instance.

Interested to see what you come up with here.......enlighten me :)



'Spirituality' or 'spiritual advancement' is very fragile term as we all know but there's no spiritual advancement that does not include advancement in ethics and deepening of your consciousness .
If you want to 'advance' in some direction, the presumption and common observation is that you need to walk there .. and to walk there, firstly, you need 'free legs' and 'free hands' ,
in other words , you need to experience yourself as free being .

The problem with your question is that it comes from the guts of society that depended on killing each other and animals for centuries ,
earlier it were religions and their prophets who said 'thou shall not kill' ,
nowadays , non-violence is considered valid part of every secular law system ( where it concerns human beings , AND some animal cruelty as well as you might noticed ) .
You can't be a serial killer and treated as 'very spiritual ' at the same time . Though, in your own esteem , you may see yourself as such ..and there are many examples of perverted killers who considered themselves also 'great philosophers' , 'great leaders' and 'great spiritualists' though ,
I think, no matter their smarts , commonly we do not consider killing act of truth and loving kindness . There may be exceptions to that rule but it's not what the topic is about anyway .

The society that invented this question , is virtually dependant on killing each other ..and their animals and eating them fresh , and soon after they've been slaughtered , what you eat is corpses , and you call it meat ( and buy it in those nicely pre-packed wraps that remind you the least of the origin of what you eat ).

There are millennia old biological reasons why you feel more like an animal who craves the flash and blood of other animals to survive . Your human ancestors had to be part of the food chain,
they once had to defend themselves in wild nature and aggravated their aggression by endless victories over less intelligent but more barbaric animal species by consuming the attacker . Their bodies learned to digest the strangers proteins, enzymes , learned his tactics from his very DNA .
So long as the other creature became inevitable part of their own blood and tactics, on their own evolution level and thus they won.

What was once perhaps, in dark ages of human civilisation a necessity .. turned out to continue as bad habit, show of muscles , cruel enjoyment .

The symbiosis went so far that some of our modern medicine teaches that you're not able to synthesise your own proteins anymore . Actually, it's not true , you pretty are and were more unless and until, you were fed by tons of animal proteins that damaged many of your organ functions to that level that they're not self sufficient anymore .

However .. the process is reversible to a great deal and worth the trial . There's no one outside of you who can offer you proof validity of that experience other than your own body and mind .

Meat eating , especially the way as 'practised ' today, an mass , way beyond what is natural and necessary for healthy functioning, exerts great deal of biological pressure on your metabolism, each time you do that .
Unlike with vegetables , you force your pancreas, liver, intestines and so forth, to work on 200% , produce number times more enzymes than is natural for them,
exercise them to become bigger and stronger ..well till they collapse ..
your hormonal system is screaming for more enhancement side with this,
but this is NOT AN EVOLUTION !

This is generation slow degeneration of your biological system that gives you some immediate advantages in form of increased functions , strenght and perhaps even thinking power but it's the way how you allow your animal prey win over you in very discrete way and turn you to their image.

You can put addiction to violence, obsessive behaviors , many uncontrollable patterns of human physiognomy and pathology , dysfunctional metabolism and tons of civilisation disease on one side ..where you share yourself with the corpses of your animal 'brothers n sisters' .

You call that free will but you aren't free unless you are able to say NO to killing, NO to being part of that particular food chain, NO to taking in their bio-codes, their bacteria , viruses and so and so forth. Their hormones, their enzymes , their metabolic residues shaping you according to their pattern .


Their fears of being a sheeple, being bred for meat, food waiting to be slaughtered .

Being fed enzymes to look like mountain of meat to be the best stale mate .



If you want to be free .. be free . If you feel that it is compulsory to be a part of the well bred stock, it's your free choice as well .


:amen:

[Akasha]

Beautifully and eloquently put, Agape. In answer to your question SGT BONES I would suggest the evidence is self evident. In other words, if you make the change and go down this path the claims that ROMANWKT makes will become apparant to you personally.

Experiential evidence will always trump data on a page no matter how genuine the research.

[Akasha]

Can't we all just get along? :)

Are you including the animals in that question? I definitely see them within the "we". Bearing that in mind does "get along" include eating each another?

But in answer to how I think you intended the question to be perceived, speaking for myself, yes.

[Sgt-Bones]

Anybody serious about expanding themselves spiritually, will not achieve any height with dead meat or lower consciousness within their body, dropping meat and other life forms from within yourself is part of your purification.

Regards to all, and no I don't eat meat

roman

No offence my friend, but do you have ANY kind of evidence to support that claim?

Please note that responfing with "some spiritual guru who wrote a book/blog or made a YT video told me so" will not be accepted as a legitimate form of evidence in this instance.

Interested to see what you come up with here.......enlighten me :)



'Spirituality' or 'spiritual advancement' is very fragile term as we all know but there's no spiritual advancement that does not include advancement in ethics and deepening of your consciousness .
If you want to 'advance' in some direction, the presumption and common observation is that you need to walk there .. and to walk there, firstly, you need 'free legs' and 'free hands' ,
in other words , you need to experience yourself as free being .

The problem with your question is that it comes from the guts of society that depended on killing each other and animals for centuries ,
earlier it were religions and their prophets who said 'thou shall not kill' ,
nowadays , non-violence is considered valid part of every secular law system ( where it concerns human beings , AND some animal cruelty as well as you might noticed ) .
You can't be a serial killer and treated as 'very spiritual ' at the same time . Though, in your own esteem , you may see yourself as such ..and there are many examples of perverted killers who considered themselves also 'great philosophers' , 'great leaders' and 'great spiritualists' though ,
I think, no matter their smarts , commonly we do not consider killing act of truth and loving kindness . There may be exceptions to that rule but it's not what the topic is about anyway .

The society that invented this question , is virtually dependant on killing each other ..and their animals and eating them fresh , and soon after they've been slaughtered , what you eat is corpses , and you call it meat ( and buy it in those nicely pre-packed wraps that remind you the least of the origin of what you eat ).

There are millennia old biological reasons why you feel more like an animal who craves the flash and blood of other animals to survive . Your human ancestors had to be part of the food chain,
they once had to defend themselves in wild nature and aggravated their aggression by endless victories over less intelligent but more barbaric animal species by consuming the attacker . Their bodies learned to digest the strangers proteins, enzymes , learned his tactics from his very DNA .
So long as the other creature became inevitable part of their own blood and tactics, on their own evolution level and thus they won.

What was once perhaps, in dark ages of human civilisation a necessity .. turned out to continue as bad habit, show of muscles , cruel enjoyment .

The symbiosis went so far that some of our modern medicine teaches that you're not able to synthesise your own proteins anymore . Actually, it's not true , you pretty are and were more unless and until, you were fed by tons of animal proteins that damaged many of your organ functions to that level that they're not self sufficient anymore .

However .. the process is reversible to a great deal and worth the trial . There's no one outside of you who can offer you proof validity of that experience other than your own body and mind .

Meat eating , especially the way as 'practised ' today, an mass , way beyond what is natural and necessary for healthy functioning, exerts great deal of biological pressure on your metabolism, each time you do that .
Unlike with vegetables , you force your pancreas, liver, intestines and so forth, to work on 200% , produce number times more enzymes than is natural for them,
exercise them to become bigger and stronger ..well till they collapse ..
your hormonal system is screaming for more enhancement side with this,
but this is NOT AN EVOLUTION !

This is generation slow degeneration of your biological system that gives you some immediate advantages in form of increased functions , strenght and perhaps even thinking power but it's the way how you allow your animal prey win over you in very discrete way and turn you to their image.

You can put addiction to violence, obsessive behaviors , many uncontrollable patterns of human physiognomy and pathology , dysfunctional metabolism and tons of civilisation disease on one side ..where you share yourself with the corpses of your animal 'brothers n sisters' .

You call that free will but you aren't free unless you are able to say NO to killing, NO to being part of that particular food chain, NO to taking in their bio-codes, their bacteria , viruses and so and so forth. Their hormones, their enzymes , their metabolic residues shaping you according to their pattern .


Their fears of being a sheeple, being bred for meat, food waiting to be slaughtered .

Being fed enzymes to look like mountain of meat to be the best stale mate .



If you want to be free .. be free . If you feel that it is compulsory to be a part of the well bred stock, it's your free choice as well .


:amen:

Some interesting comments there, although, it's difficult to tell just how much was based on fact and how much was based on your own programmed/conditioned understanding/knowledge of the topic at hand.

Just like everyone else I'm sure you've formulated your "belief/s" based on the knowledge and experience gained whilst travelling your own path/s here... and that's about all any of us can really do.

At the very least it is clear you've put a lot of thought into this subject matter, and why not, what we choose to put into our bodies is pretty important.

Personally, I think everybody should just do whatever they think is right for them.... life is a journey and ALL experiences are valid/purposeful.

At the end of the day, I don't think there are necessarily any "right" or "wrong" answers to the questions being debated on this thread.

We each must make our own choices and more importantly be prepared to take responsibility for them (when the time comes).

Personal accountability is the key here... so it really is in our best interest to choose wisely.

[Akasha]

.... life is a journey and ALL experiences are valid/purposeful.

If I killed you the experience might be "valid/purposeful" to me in the sense that I would hopefully learn remorse etc... but you'd still be dead!

[Wind]

Can't we all just get along? :)

Are you including the animals in that question? I definitely see them within the "we". Bearing that in mind does "get along" include eating each another?

But in answer to how I think you intended the question to be perceived, speaking for myself, yes.

We all are part of the same creation, no doub about it. Even rocks are made by intelligent design.

In this particular case I just meant the humans here on Avalon as you might know. Debating might be entertaining for a while, but ultimately it doesn't lead to anywhere. Personally I care about animals a lot and that's why I'm mostly a vegetarian. I too feel a lot better without meat, it's just a matter of choice. I just feel that it's not my business to cricize others for their choices. I criticize and affect the system by my own individual choices.

[Alan]

Anybody serious about expanding themselves spiritually, will not achieve any height with dead meat or lower consciousness within their body, dropping meat and other life forms from within yourself is part of your purification.

Plants are life forms -- are you a fruitarian?

[Agape]

Some interesting comments there, although, it's difficult to tell just how much was based on fact and how much was based on your own programmed/conditioned understanding of the topic at hand.

Just like everyone else I'm sure you've formulated your "belief/s" based on the knowledge and experience gained whilst travelling your own path/s here... and that's about all any of us can really do.

At the very least it is clear you've put a lot of thought into this subject matter, and why not, what we choose to put into our bodies is pretty important.

Personally, I think everybody should just do whatever they think is right for them.... life is a journey and ALL experiences are valid/purposeful.

At the end of the day, I don't think there are necessarily any "right" or "wrong" answers to the questions being debated on this thread.

We each must make our own choices and more importantly be prepared to take responsibility for them (when the time comes).

Personal accountability is the key here... so it really is in our best interest to choose wisely.


Wish I grow a beard soon.. ( it's improbable and i don't really wish that being fe-male entity ) ;) so I could also nod my head 3 times now and say 'you're right Son' ,
it really does not make much difference .

The intriguing thing in your post , is question posed without real quest .. which inevitably leads you around to the same place where you came from , mentally,

i.e. not being able to follow logic of explanation and putting it all down to some level of obsession with what we 'put to mouth'

and doubting my thinking process is in fact programmed /copied from somewhere /someone else ?


Allow me to laugh but understanding comes with practise :haha:


P.S. It's a real problem . To communicate to people who like you, are basically pre-programmed, base their opinions on believes ( call it scholarly knowledge in more advanced cases ) and presume that everyone is the same .

I wonder, if you ever , i mean ever enjoy the experience of your intelligence exploring, experimenting with the grounds of life , mind and matter , arriving at conclusions ( no matter how inconclusive they are ),

if you ever enjoy being you, rather than good copy of someones else's findings ?


Can you answer that question to Your Self ?



;)

[Alan]

Anybody serious about expanding themselves spiritually, will not achieve any height with dead meat or lower consciousness within their body, dropping meat and other life forms from within yourself is part of your purification.

Regards to all, and no I don't eat meat

roman

I understand where you're coming from.

But do you care if the production of those plants is destroying the planet?

¤=[Post Update]=¤


alamojo, are you saying vegetarians consume more grains then people who eat meat?

Of course not -- please don't turn this into an "us versus them" thing. Please re-read my very short post, it was very clear.

[Alan]

And honestly Alamajo you need to get a grip my friend, saying all vegetarians are in denial is an absurd statement. Think a bit before you post such a statement..
No one here is saying "All meat eaters hate animals"
Thread is getting a wee bit off topic isn't it?

I never said "ALL". The fact that not a single vegetarian has commented on grain agriculture supports my comment on them being in denial.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


For what it's worth, I've yet to see a vegetarian vs. meat eater thread that didn't eventually devolve into a silly food fight. :no:

It's sad -- I found the book so very interesting and not a single vegetarian here will read it or discuss it. :-(

[Akasha]

...Debating might be entertaining for a while, but ultimately it doesn't lead to anywhere...

Certainly debating can be fun but, regardless of the entertainment factor, ultimately it most certainly does lead somewhere. Just ask anyone who changed their diet through observing or listening to such debates..... not to mention that if this thread had been left dormant, we wouldn't have been blessed with Agape's recent gem of a post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?57396-The-Vegetarian-Myth&p=715107&viewfull=1#post715107) to name but one.


...Personally I care about animals a lot and that's why I'm mostly a vegetarian. I too feel a lot better without meat...

which begs the obvious question.........

[Sgt-Bones]

.... life is a journey and ALL experiences are valid/purposeful.

If I killed you the experience might be "valid/purposeful" to me in the sense that I would hopefully learn remorse etc... but you'd still be dead!

Yeah, well, what if one of the reasons for my coming here was to teach you that very lesson?

... I'm certain the higher aspect/s of myself would be quite okay with that.

We are not our bodies you know... spirit is eternal.

Ever heard of soul contracts/agreements??

[Akasha]

.... life is a journey and ALL experiences are valid/purposeful.

If I killed you the experience might be "valid/purposeful" to me in the sense that I would hopefully learn remorse etc... but you'd still be dead!

Yeah, well, what if one of the reasons for my coming here was to teach you that very lesson?


... I'm certain the higher aspect/s of myself would be quite okay with that.

I'm relieved to hear that ;) but can you speak for all the slaughtered animals for which the metaphor was intended?


Ever heard of soul contracts/agreements??

No, have you got any evidence for such things? :p

[Wind]

Certainly debating can be fun but, regardless of the entertainment factor, ultimately it most certainly does lead somewhere. Just ask anyone who changed their diet through observing or listening to such debates..... not to mention that if this thread had been left dormant, we wouldn't have been blessed with Agape's recent gem of a post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?57396-The-Vegetarian-Myth&p=715107&viewfull=1#post715107) to name but one.

Well, personally I just don't really like debates since I usually just get an unpleasant feeling from them. You can't really force other people to change their views even if you are passionate about the subject. It only creates more friction. I'm just thankful for my own observations and choices.


which begs the obvious question.........

The question being?

[Sgt-Bones]

P.S. It's a real problem . To communicate to people who like you, are basically pre-programmed, base their opinions on believes ( call it scholarly knowledge in more advanced cases ) and presume that everyone is the same .

I wonder, if you ever , i mean ever enjoy the experience of your intelligence exploring, experimenting with the grounds of life , mind and matter , arriving at conclusions ( no matter how inconclusive they are ),

if you ever enjoy being you, rather than good copy of someones else's findings ?


Can you answer that question to Your Self ?



;)

LOL - thanks for throwing this little 'edit' into the end of your post... because the first part made pretty much no sense to me whatsoever.

Also, it tells me quite a lot about you.

Firstly, you make many assumptions about me... isn't the first time somebody's done that and it won't be the last... but good for you anyway ;)

Secondly, I have no desire to enter into some sort of spiritual pissing contest with you where each of us tries to demonstrate to the other how "enlightened" they are... mainly because it's just childish.

Thirdly, I know exactly who (and more importantly 'what') I am... and that's good enough for me.

Lastly, have a great day... and try to relax :)

[Shannow]

There was an article in New Scientist ages and ages ago on a myth about "traditional" vegeteraianism, and it had to do with food hygeine factors that existed up until recent western times...they didn't have them, and they couldn't afford to throw out food.

As a result, it was estimated that 10% of a traditional vegetarian's protein intake was insect in origin, and that the insects had amazing fatty acid profiles, and made for a very healthy diet.

Can only imagine how they discovered natto etc. etc. before they had gym shoes to grow it in and flavour it.

Vegeterin is fine, if you know that bread, pasta, and white rice might be from vegetation but aren't nutrition.

[Akasha]

The question being?

......if you "care about animals a lot" and "feel a lot better without meat" why not be completely vegetarian rather than "mostly"?

I'm sure you can recognise the absurdity in the statement: I care for the children, I only killed a couple last year.

Growing pains are just that: painful, but vital to growth.

[Agape]

More people ( extends to higher animals ) you eat, more fates you have to live for them . It's their pain and remorse you have to experience so why asking for it .
The benefits outlaw the side effects is answer worth extreme survivalist ,

wonder why most members of this 'civilised society' feel that survivalism is their destiny .. , 7 billion populace who can't care for each other because there's not enough food and some have to be eaten to repair it , at the end ?

I fear .. but won't do that ;) :behindsofa:

The lesson is about how to prevent damage to our biological functioning, how to soothe pain resulting from such damage , reverse the effects if possible and re-install healthy humane experience .

The workings of Spirit are beyond all matters yet , there would be no way of experiencing them if there did not exist entanglement , synchronicity of laws between this world and another .

[Akasha]

The fact that not a single vegetarian has commented on grain agriculture supports my comment on them being in denial.[COLOR="red"]


The majority of grain production goes on feeding livestock and although I can't speak for others I'm going to assume that they haven't responded because they thought folk were aware of that.

For the record my diet has relatively small quantities of grain (and nuts and oil) in it being instead more concentrated on fruits (mainly high carb') and a large variety of vegetables, mostly locally grown.

[Shannow]

Feeding grain to cattle is ridiculous, and is only popular due to mass hypnotism/marketting, and lobbying by grain groups to have grain feed sold lower than production costs due to subsidies.

Cattle (meat and dairy) turn pasture into food, with a very healthy mineralisation and fatty acid profile. Feeding grain to animals ruins both, and makes the animals unhealthy to begin with.

[Agape]

LOL - thanks for throwing this little 'edit' into the end of your post... because the first part made pretty much no sense to me whatsoever.

Also, it tells me quite a lot about you.

Firstly, you make many assumptions about me... isn't the first time somebody's done that and it won't be the last... but good for you anyway ;)

Secondly, I have no desire to enter into some sort of spiritual pissing contest with you where each of us tries to demonstrate to the other how "enlightened" they are... mainly because it's just childish.

Thirdly, I know exactly who (and more importantly 'what') I am... and that's good enough for me.

Lastly, have a great day... and try to relax :)


Likewise, please have a good day ... I am not on preaching trip , and my original posting was quite sincere and based on few relevant observations made during my life, practise and research .

Those personal interjections truly serve entertainment alone, since we know very little of each other .

So please be calmed, I don't presume to know who you are , do not expect that you know who am I .

Even if you claim otherwise .


;)


PS : ....and never seen you here ... keep safe :p

[Wind]

......if you "care about animals a lot" and "feel a lot better without meat" why not be completely vegetarian rather than "mostly"?

I'm sure you can recognise the absurdity in the statement: I care for the children, I only killed a couple last year.

Growing pains are just that: painful, but vital to growth.

Dear friend, it means that I sometimes eat fish, but quite rarely since I see nothing wrong in it. Why? Because that's what I decided. I used to at meat all the time before, but I felt that it was time for me to change my ways when my eyes were opened. The main thing for me was to stop eating red meat. I don't really like the choice of your words and I find them offensive. You could ask yourself that are you really that spiritual person when you so easily judge others?

I tried to spread some humour here, but I guess that there is always someone who likes to misunderstand sincere words. My bad, I shouldn't have said a word.

[Akasha]

Please have the courage to go within and ask yourself why you find them offensive. There was no offence intended. I'm sorry.

[Wind]

Please have the courage to go within and ask yourself why you find them offensive. There was no offence intended. I'm sorry.

It's all right, no hard feelings.

[Akasha]

On a lighter note:

http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=29555

[Lettherebelight]

Yeah, well, what if one of the reasons for my coming here was to teach you that very lesson?

... I'm certain the higher aspect/s of myself would be quite okay with that.

We are not our bodies you know... spirit is eternal.

Ever heard of soul contracts/agreements??

With regard to soul contracts, there is a Vedic mantra that supports this theory:

“Mam sa khadatiti mamsah” … ie “whatever I am doing to you, you can do to me in my next life”.

Mam sa khadatiti mamsah. The Sanskrit word is mamsa. Mam means “me,” and sa means “he.” I am killing this animal; I am eating him. And in my next lifetime he’ll kill me and eat me. When the animal is sacrificed, this mantra is recited into the ear of the animal—”You are giving your life, so in your next life you will get the opportunity of becoming a human being. And I who am now killing you will become an animal, and you will kill me.”

So, there will always be those that eat meat, and those that choose not to. Only in the human form do we have the opportunity to choose. We will all choose, by choice, or by default (let others choose for us). I say, choose for your self, there is plenty of information out there. It your life path.

Regarding the premise of vegetarian diet being bad for you is itself, a myth. My healthy family is all the proof I need ;)

[Wind]

On a lighter note:

http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=29555

Funny, though I prefer George Carlin.

[Akasha]

“Mam sa khadatiti mamsah” … ie “whatever I am doing to you, you can do to me in my next life" .....if reincarnation is true then maybe.....but if not.....then what?

I'll grant you that it's certainly a very convenient concept for those wishing to justify blood sacrifice... which I think we can all agree is, at best, devoid of all logic.

[Sgt-Bones]

.... life is a journey and ALL experiences are valid/purposeful.

If I killed you the experience might be "valid/purposeful" to me in the sense that I would hopefully learn remorse etc... but you'd still be dead!

Yeah, well, what if one of the reasons for my coming here was to teach you that very lesson?


... I'm certain the higher aspect/s of myself would be quite okay with that.

I'm relieved to hear that ;) but can you speak for all the slaughtered animals for which the metaphor was intended?


Ever heard of soul contracts/agreements??

No, have you got any evidence for such things? :p

Can I speak for the slaughtered animals?

No, of course not... they each have their own reasons for choosing to experience the existence they had here and the final outcomes for their own physical vessels.

This place is ALL about the experience... good, bad, ugly, indifferent, and everything in between.

The way I see it, it's all agreed to before we even get here, so it's ALL good... even the not so pleasant stuff.

The whole point of it is that we get to explore and experience the entire spectrum of possibilities and outcomes.

Often we have to enlist the help of others so as to ensure the desired experience or set of experiences is created for us.... hence the need for soul contracts/agreements.

Do I have any evidence for the existence of soul contracts?

Well, yes, but only the kind that comes from direct personal knowledge/experience of past lives.... which cannot be "proven" to others via words on a screen.

But I guess that was your point ;)

[Akasha]

On a lighter note:

http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=29555

Funny, though I prefer George Carlin.

So do I but relatively speaking he's just getting started.

[Akasha]

Can I speak for the slaughtered animals?

No, of course not... they each have their own reasons for choosing to experience the existence they had here and the final outcomes for their own physical vessels.

....within the framework of your belief system. I have no such belief system. I do however try to be driven by love at all times. I would at this stage interject that love is not a belief but rather something we have, I hope, all felt at one time or another as a palpable, tangible energy flowing within us.


This place is ALL about the experience... good, bad, ugly, indifferent, and everything in between.

True, I agree, but those experiences should all culminate in raising consciousness towards the frequency of love otherwise we aren't learning the lessons are we?


The way I see it, it's all agreed to before we even get here, so it's ALL good... even the not so pleasant stuff.

Your belief in predestination is clearly soothing you for now. I, however, having no such beliefs must take direct responsibility for all decisions within my power to make. My experience so far is such that when my decisions are motivated by love, the outcomes are more desirable all round. This obviously extends to my diet.


The whole point of it is that we get to explore and experience the entire spectrum of possibilities and outcomes.

Again you are buying into a concept which may or may not be true. Let's say it is true: if so, haven't we experienced enough of the suffering end of the spectrum?


Often we have to enlist the help of others so as to ensure the desired experience or set of experiences is created for us.... hence the need for soul contracts/agreements.

Do I have any evidence for the existence of soul contracts?

Well, yes, but only the kind that comes from direct personal knowledge/experience of past lives.... which cannot be "proven" to others via words on a screen.

But I guess that was your point ;)

How can you objectively discern between direct personal knowledge/experience of past lives and your imagination? I guess you are saying that you just can and that's ok. Who am I to dispute such things?

(got to go but will be back asap)

edit: I should add to the last paragraph the possibility of your past lives experiences being the result of tapping into the akashic record (if it exists) and encountering other people's experiences.

[Agape]

“Mam sa khadatiti mamsah” … ie “whatever I am doing to you, you can do to me in my next life" .....if reincarnation is true then maybe.....but if not.....then what?

I'll grant you that it's certainly a very convenient concept for those wishing to justify blood sacrifice... which I think we can all agree is, at best, devoid of all logic.

Reincarnation like many other facets of life experience is not enough to explain everything and one quote taken out of context of broader perspective , whether it's Vedic or Greek can not do that ,
when we are at quotes , I would rather stick to ''Be food your medicine and your medicine is your food'' .

If we were perfectly healthy .. in the 'higher spiritual ' and biological sense , we would not have to put almost anything to our mouth to survive . Breathing would sort it out, absorbing energy from the environment , through our skin , some people claim to be able to do that but in current stage of earthly evolution the ability is reduced to minimum.
We still all do that . I find actually quite surprising how many of the modern pharmaceutical ( and cosmetic ) companies are re-discovering the fact that we are able to absorb nutritients , vitamins, and whatever miraculous elements through our skin, painlessly .

The same goes for absorbing free radicals from environment , various pollutants, plant pollens, fatty droplets, no matter the compound you name,
the fastest entry they make to our bodies is we breathe them and absorb them through our skin .

When generations of our grandmothers rubbed animal fat to treat back pains for example, did it provide treatment or nutrition to the skin cells and muscles underneath ?

Aren't those cosmetic companies selling 'DNA creams' for $$$ selling ages old recipes transferred to safe tubes .


Many narrow minded concepts will keep failing to explain everything during this short and little human life time whilst we see all these 'very gifted humans' trying to answer all question, right here and right now .
Or.. we can't survive , they claim .

The one law that will continue to explain a lot though and what is the true base of the concept of Karma , is the law of cause and effect .

It's said that if one understands the causality of existence .. and what they call 'dependent arising' in Buddhism which is another subtle name for the same,
and is very close to what Einstein described in terms of general and special relativity ,
one can understand about everything ( if he applies appropriate effort ).

Of course, physical laws sometimes look like a novum to certain class of 'spiritualists' but there, you need to brush your intellect and put most of your inherited convictions aside ,
to decipher what is that truly going on around us, inside us, and what will be its most logical consequencies , counting in as many causes as possible.

In fact, more causes you can count in , in effect , your understanding of what we vaguely perceive as presence deepens .

Whatever we experience now is result of some past causes, on very microscopic level as well.
Yes we are here as result of our intention to be 'here' and taste the flavour of this reality and contribute to it on our accord, learn about it and use that understanding for further improvement .

I think that vaguely covers the term 'evolution' for me , which in case of higher intelligence such as the one enclosed in human brains, entails the very complicated factor of free will .
We are free to put ourselves through certain trials that we are aware of not being absolutely safe or 'right' , with hope and intent of achieving some form of superior understanding .

This applies and is more relevant to process of individualisation , something that others can not usually and really observe in short time ,
and which process gains true validity over generation leaps .

So also, the way how we proceed our biological causality and it's already existing pre-determination differs, otherwise we would have to , literally experience all the murders that our ancestors once caused , and all results of their ignorant decisions etc.

The fact that our biological intelligence has some level of freedom , and FREEDOM from the chain of certain kind of causes and consequences was the main target of my first post in this thread ,
means that though we experience ourselves as earth-bound and limited creatures in many terms, due to many physical laws in game ,
there's portion of our free will that is allowed to alter some of our biological functions on very complex level .

I'm not saying it's true for everyone because some won't be able to understand . But for lets say, big percentage of human populace,
the decision has to take place in their own minds , to whom they want to grow up.



Being caught in a closed system, food chain, or whatever they call Samsara ..which itself refers to Sama= sameness and Sara= Essence ,
means we are unwillingly or otherwise repeating the same process followed by our predecessors, repeating what we were taught is safe to do ,

and using our free will and intellect but very little .

:plane:


PS . Sorry for the overly long post .

[DNA]

If we were perfectly healthy .. in the 'higher spiritual ' and biological sense , we would not have to put almost anything to our mouth to survive . Breathing would sort it out, absorbing energy from the environment , through our skin , some people claim to be able to do that but in current stage of earthly evolution the ability is reduced to minimum.



Can I confide an ugly secret before I start?
Everytime I hear someone bring this up I get irrationally mad.
This isn't a statement to ask for a free pass to be rude, it is just an admission is all.
I think it is due to a connection in the belief that vegetarians have in that they feel a sense of superiority and this kind of validates that.

In the spirit and pursuit of mutual understanding and advancement, is their any proof to the whole idea of not eating and living off of breathing?
Is my anger a defense mechanism wanting to defend my carniverous lifestyle? Probably.
Just spitballing here.

[Agape]

Can I confide an ugly secret before I start?
Everytime I hear someone bring this up I get irrationally mad.
This isn't a statement to ask for a free pass to be rude, it is just an admission is all.
I think it is due to a connection in the belief that vegetarians have in that they feel a sense of superiority and this kind of validates that.

In the spirit and pursuit of mutual understanding and advancement, is their any proof to the whole idea of not eating and living off of breathing?
Is my anger a defense mechanism wanting to defend my carniverous lifestyle? Probably.
Just spitballing here.


There is none . The notion of superiority and inferiority is as irrational as only man can be , why, because we are none born complete, adult and enlightened .

We come here and learn , take lessons from others, our own selves and every form and moment of life .

There is uniqueness of needs and abilities and we are not drones neither photocopies of one another . We all share some common ethical and philosophical grounds , no matter how basic or complicated you feel about it .

There would be very little sense in sharing a good idea or an advice on healthy life style unless you can appreciate value of the idea by your own experience .

I do not come to argue here , that would be utter waste of time from my perspective .


:angel:

[ROMANWKT]

If any of you have the courage and interest to know the truth, even for the vegans who sometime doubt that they are doing right, and to the meat eaters that think that they are doing nothing wrong and think they are on a spiritual path, think again, know and understand that you again had been lied to, all of humanity had been lied to, and yes there are people who had been sensitive to the truth, you may find the truth shocking, if you really want to live in ignorance then don't bother, but you meat eaters are 10000000000% wrong.

Show your conviction and listen to these three mp3s

This will be the last matter on the war of meat or veg TRUST ME.


You will learn a lot and understand a lot, I cant tell you how important it is to humanity, this knowledge, as its one of the keys to your freedom on earth.


Please go to www.whatonearthishappening.com

Go to the podcast and listen and watch the pictures as he addresses the issues
OR LISTEN HERE podcast 121, 122, 123.

http://www.whatonearthishappening.com/podcasts/WOEIH-121.mp3

http://www.whatonearthishappening.com/podcasts/WOEIH-122.mp3

http://www.whatonearthishappening.com/podcasts/WOEIH-123.mp3

PS start 121 @20 minutes and start 122@20 minutes
warmest regards to all

roman

22390

22389

22391

22392

PRESS PICS TO EXPAND

[norman]

I stumbled over this podcast interview with Lierre Keith, author of "The Vegetarian Myth", and found her point about agricultural practices in the last 10,000 years interesting and convincing.

http://app.stitcher.com/browse/feed/10279/details

If this link doesn't work for you ( I'm listening to it via my own radio panel at stitcher ), let me know and I'll grab it and reupload it somewhere else.


OK, here it is at my box account:

https://app.box.com/s/ke2vzalvhb1rdn85p63binhxc3mk9bfb

[Patient]

Great thread with great posts! I have read throughout the first 3 pages and I will come back when I have more time. I believe that this is a very important topic and for more reasons than is first obvious. We make our choice and then we take a stand - that often results in creating an opposing side that does the same and often times both sides push at the other to make their point - and often times both points are valid - then we see that often times we can not easily accept a view point that is opposite from our own and we are unsettled by it. When we can get past this point we will have evolved.

Sorry if I digressed, but this thought came to my mind and I felt that it should be here. As a vegetarian I have experienced many of the same situations that came up in this thread. Meat eaters were quick to feel the need to explain themselves or cut me down for their own feelings - I have never been a "preaching" vegetarian. If I am asked questions I will answer. Simple. I have also been told off by vegans for my diet. This is a big part of why i feel this topic is important because it seems to me that no one has it figured out yet.

...and I wonder how long it will take for us to get it right, or even if we ever will. A large reason that I became vegetarian is because my body did not seem to agree to meat products any longer. But why I wondered? I did some research and I found that many relatives died from similar cancers and they all lived similar lives styles - similar diets. When I found that the wheat and grains (and all of the other things that they put into the animals) could very well be causing those who ate the animals problems, my appettite was altered. Since becoming a vegetarian, my body feels much healthier. But now, I worry about the grains and other things they are putting in and on the products I eat. Round and round I go, hoping that some day we will get it right. In the meantime, i hope my body can handle the changes that society is dishing us!

[Ewan]

I stumbled over this podcast interview with Lierre Keith, author of "The Vegetarian Myth", and found her point about agricultural practices in the last 10,000 years interesting and convincing.

http://app.stitcher.com/browse/feed/10279/details

If this link doesn't work for you ( I'm listening to it via my own radio panel at stitcher ), let me know and I'll grab it and reupload it somewhere else.

I elected to use Stitcher as guest but the file would not play, if you could share an .mp3 elsewhere that would be great. :)

[Akasha]

Great thread with great posts! I have read throughout the first 3 pages and I will come back when I have more time. I believe that this is a very important topic and for more reasons than is first obvious. We make our choice and then we take a stand - that often results in creating an opposing side that does the same and often times both sides push at the other to make their point - and often times both points are valid - then we see that often times we can not easily accept a view point that is opposite from our own and we are unsettled by it. When we can get past this point we will have evolved.

Sorry if I digressed, but this thought came to my mind and I felt that it should be here. As a vegetarian I have experienced many of the same situations that came up in this thread. Meat eaters were quick to feel the need to explain themselves or cut me down for their own feelings - I have never been a "preaching" vegetarian. If I am asked questions I will answer. Simple. I have also been told off by vegans for my diet. This is a big part of why i feel this topic is important because it seems to me that no one has it figured out yet.

...and I wonder how long it will take for us to get it right, or even if we ever will. A large reason that I became vegetarian is because my body did not seem to agree to meat products any longer. But why I wondered? I did some research and I found that many relatives died from similar cancers and they all lived similar lives styles - similar diets. When I found that the wheat and grains (and all of the other things that they put into the animals) could very well be causing those who ate the animals problems, my appettite was altered. Since becoming a vegetarian, my body feels much healthier. But now, I worry about the grains and other things they are putting in and on the products I eat. Round and round I go, hoping that some day we will get it right. In the meantime, i hope my body can handle the changes that society is dishing us!

Hi Patient.

Do you remember the reasons certain vegans told you off? I was vegetarian for over a decade before becoming vegan so I was in the same boat as you for quite some time and certainly don't want to appear as if I’m telling you off also.
As I understand it, and what led me to go vegan, the argument against (essentially) dairy and eggs is primarily an ethical one. The dietary argument might still be open to debate in the eyes of some but that’s not my primary concern, although it appears weaker and weaker for these animal products as more data come in.

So back to the ethical argument. It basically goes like this: beef cattle are not subject to the misery of being annually raped throughout their productive lifespan, hooked up to machines two or three times a day once they start lactating, having their offspring taken from them after a matter of hours or days of giving birth and then finally, after all that suffering, taken to slaughter - the typical life of a dairy cow, a life which normally lasts for 3-5 years but has the biological potential to last for over 20.

The ethical argument also extends to the life of the calf taken away from its mother. Aside from the trauma of such an action, the calf will, if it is female, join the cycle of misery which its mother is subject too, and if it is male, assuming it isn't executed immediately, it will be absorbed into the veal industry (a tremendously cruel by-product of the dairy industry) to be taken to slaughter some 19 or 20 weeks later.

There is also the issue of mastitis, or infection of the udder, a systemic problem within the industry and the main reason dairy cattle are continually medicated with antibiotics, thus increasingly leading to ineffectiveness of these drugs on the human population.


Y43YAYHJ2Ng


q0ty7KiFJlI

6YDIS5gg4SA

The ethical argument against eggs is different but one can recognise the similarity. Regardless of how the chickens are accommodated, whether it be free-range organic or caged, the overwhelming majority of male chicks end up in a mincing / macerating machine or gas chamber within hours of hatching. Their presence does not fit the business model of the modern egg industry save for a handful which may be retained for breeding purposes.

It should also be highlighted that, just like dairy cattle, chickens end up in the slaughterhouse once their productivity drops below a certain threshold - typically after 1 or 2 years.


HN0g13kMk6s

I6i2zg-dkOs

[MorningFox]

The problem isn't necessarily that animals have to die for people to eat meat, it's how they are treated when they are alive.

Many intelligent vegetarians and vegans abstain from eating meat and dairy in protest of the horrific way in which animals are abused and tortured. Whether they'd be healthier or not if they ate meat is not the issue, neither is whether it's ok for animals to die to sustain us. The god-awful practices carried out in these industries must stop at all costs if we are to live with ourselves as compassionate human beings.

[norman]

I stumbled over this podcast interview with Lierre Keith, author of "The Vegetarian Myth", and found her point about agricultural practices in the last 10,000 years interesting and convincing.

http://app.stitcher.com/browse/feed/10279/details

If this link doesn't work for you ( I'm listening to it via my own radio panel at stitcher ), let me know and I'll grab it and reupload it somewhere else.

I elected to use Stitcher as guest but the file would not play, if you could share an .mp3 elsewhere that would be great. :)



Here it is, I trimmed a bit off the beginning to get straight to the interview:

https://app.box.com/s/ke2vzalvhb1rdn85p63binhxc3mk9bfb

[Patient]

Great thread with great posts! I have read throughout the first 3 pages and I will come back when I have more time. I believe that this is a very important topic and for more reasons than is first obvious. We make our choice and then we take a stand - that often results in creating an opposing side that does the same and often times both sides push at the other to make their point - and often times both points are valid - then we see that often times we can not easily accept a view point that is opposite from our own and we are unsettled by it. When we can get past this point we will have evolved.

Sorry if I digressed, but this thought came to my mind and I felt that it should be here. As a vegetarian I have experienced many of the same situations that came up in this thread. Meat eaters were quick to feel the need to explain themselves or cut me down for their own feelings - I have never been a "preaching" vegetarian. If I am asked questions I will answer. Simple. I have also been told off by vegans for my diet. This is a big part of why i feel this topic is important because it seems to me that no one has it figured out yet.

...and I wonder how long it will take for us to get it right, or even if we ever will. A large reason that I became vegetarian is because my body did not seem to agree to meat products any longer. But why I wondered? I did some research and I found that many relatives died from similar cancers and they all lived similar lives styles - similar diets. When I found that the wheat and grains (and all of the other things that they put into the animals) could very well be causing those who ate the animals problems, my appettite was altered. Since becoming a vegetarian, my body feels much healthier. But now, I worry about the grains and other things they are putting in and on the products I eat. Round and round I go, hoping that some day we will get it right. In the meantime, i hope my body can handle the changes that society is dishing us!

Hi Patient.

Do you remember the reasons certain vegans told you off? I was vegetarian for over a decade before becoming vegan so I was in the same boat as you for quite some time and certainly don't want to appear as if I’m telling you off also.
As I understand it, and what led me to go vegan, the argument against (essentially) dairy and eggs is primarily an ethical one. The dietary argument might still be open to debate in the eyes of some but that’s not my primary concern, although it appears weaker and weaker for these animal products as more data come in.

So back to the ethical argument. It basically goes like this: beef cattle are not subject to the misery of being annually raped throughout their productive lifespan, hooked up to machines two or three times a day once they start lactating, having their offspring taken from them after a matter of hours or days of giving birth and then finally, after all that suffering, taken to slaughter - the typical life of a dairy cow, a life which normally lasts for 3-5 years but has the biological potential to last for over 20.

The ethical argument also extends to the life of the calf taken away from its mother. Aside from the trauma of such an action, the calf will, if it is female, join the cycle of misery which its mother is subject too, and if it is male, assuming it isn't executed immediately, it will be absorbed into the veal industry (a tremendously cruel by-product of the dairy industry) to be taken to slaughter some 19 or 20 weeks later.

There is also the issue of mastitis, or infection of the udder, a systemic problem within the industry and the main reason dairy cattle are continually medicated with antibiotics, thus increasingly leading to ineffectiveness of these drugs on the human population.


Y43YAYHJ2Ng


q0ty7KiFJlI

6YDIS5gg4SA

The ethical argument against eggs is different but one can recognise the similarity. Regardless of how the chickens are accommodated, whether it be free-range organic or caged, the overwhelming majority of male chicks end up in a mincing / macerating machine or gas chamber within hours of hatching. Their presence does not fit the business model of the modern egg industry save for a handful which may be retained for breeding purposes.

It should also be highlighted that, just like dairy cattle, chickens end up in the slaughterhouse once their productivity drops below a certain threshold - typically after 1 or 2 years.


HN0g13kMk6s

I6i2zg-dkOs

Hi Akasha, I am aware of how the animals are treated. It is very sad and unnecessary. I do my best being vegetarian and I suppose an underlying point that I am making (now that I am responding to your post) is that I should not have to apologize for not being vegan. Essentially, a person should not be made to feel guilty because they can not be as good as another person based on that person's perspective ( I am tired right now and only awake as i am trying to make sure my kids go to sleep, so I hope my point is coming across correctly.)

Some things (as you asked) are by products from the industry - for example if i am a vegetarian, why do I have leather seats? Now that one is easy and obvious to see, but another point is that there are so many products that use by products from animals that unless you are very educated on the subject you will never know.

This brings me to my original point from my post - will we ever get it right.(do not confuse this statement with the idea that we shouldn't try very hard to get it right). Half of my family is vegan and the cost of products is expensive. Also, where I live, much of the vegetarian products that my family loved has disappeared from the market making meal making to please a large variety of tastes sometimes very difficult. Pursuing this life choice is a lot of effort - and as most vegans and vegetarians would agree - it shouldn't be.

Will we ever et it right. How many animals suffer because farm fields are used for wheat, veggies and fruit? If you start educating your children in all these things, what is left for your child to eat?

So as I said earlier - this is a very important topic. And just to add; I do not recall who said this, but it went something like this "If you can not take your children and show them where there food comes from and how it is prepared, them maybe you know the right answer already. I am very comfortable showing my kids how to pick apples."

[Akasha]

The Vegan Atheist comments on an interview between Lierre and Steven Crowder:

OWNqMZnJeIw

[Akasha]

Mic. the Vegan (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGJq0eQZoFSwgcqgxIE9MHw) puts Lierre and her straw-men to bed:


oMuxgAbHgJA

[grapevine]

Oxalate Dumping: The WORST Food That Feeds Oxalates (Eat This Instead)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G3XXPkdPqI (52:34)
Came across this really interesting interview today. Who knew, for instance, that most vegetables have a built-in toxic deterrent (oxalic acid) to protect themselves from marauders which can cause many problems including kidney stones. And this is found in a range of "healthy" vegetables.
:facepalm:
The comments under the video on YT are also compelling.

Here's a link to a website which gives information on oxalates and which foods are best eaten in small qualities or avoided altogether.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/low-oxalate-diet?c=620504332666#foods-to-eat-and-avoid

[Pam]

Oxalate Dumping: The WORST Food That Feeds Oxalates (Eat This Instead)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G3XXPkdPqI (52:34)
Came across this really interesting interview today. Who knew, for instance, that most vegetables have a built-in toxic deterrent (oxalic acid) to protect themselves from marauders which can cause many problems including kidney stones. And this is found in a range of "healthy" vegetables.
:facepalm:
The comments under the video on YT are also compelling.

Here's a link to a website which gives information on oxalates and which foods are best eaten in small qualities or avoided altogether.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/low-oxalate-diet?c=620504332666#foods-to-eat-and-avoid

As a vegetarian I have learned the lesson oxalates the hard way. I grow my own veggies and for a long time I was blending a bunch of greens, primarily spinach, which is highly nutritious but also is loaded with oxalates. So is rhubarb, which I grow and really love. It turned out that I was unknowingly consuming huge amounts of oxalates and fortunately they didn't end up creating kidney stones but they were accumulating in my feet and legs. It was very painful and it also binds with other minerals and creates cramping. I developed a rash all over my body as the body was trying to rid itself of the oxalate crystals. I was so desperate I went to a doctor, they, unsurprisingly had no idea what was wrong with me and prescribed gapapentin, which might cover the symptoms. I did not use them.

I finally figured it out and the process of getting rid of the excess oxalates is very long. I never eat spinach, rhubarb, rarely eat almonds as these are all high in oxalates. It can be very, very painful and destructive. I still am a vegetarian but I just avoid the big offenders and indulge in those with not as many oxalates far less.

I can testify that those little shards can cause a huge amount of pain and distress so indulging in the high oxylate foods on a regular basis is not a good idea.

[Brigantia]

Thanks Miller and Pam, I had never heard of oxalates. I'm vegetarian and eat spinach occasionally and a few almonds every day (that's been for many years) and have not had any problems. I've just had a read of the article and not many of the foods that I eat regularly are on there though, I also cook spinach. As with all diets, moderation is key.

Going back to the theme of this thread, a friend who has many clients with a biofeedback machine told me that a diet with no fish oils can affect memory, even if you take vegan omega oils. I was thinking it was ageing that was making me forgetful at times, so I did try a fish oil supplement and had a noticeable difference in my memory function as a result.

[grapevine]

Me neither Brigantia. In fact before watching that video I would've been happy to eat spinach every day and think I was eating healthily. But most vegetables contain a degree of oxalates and so it's a question of finding the lowest ones. I was surprised to see celery on the list, especially as it's a natural diuretic.

One of the comments under the video on YT said something to the effect that we're finding out nearly everything we eat can kill us :), which isn't really funny but all part of the cycle, and I guess that when we partake of life's rich banquet, we're bound to devour the odd crap sandwich now and then :/. Not eating a wide variety of food brings its own risks in the form of low vitamins, minerals and a poor immune system, so it all comes down to choices in the end, and moderation of course; Now where's that bar of chocolate . . . . :)

[Pam]

Me neither Brigantia. In fact before watching that video I would've been happy to eat spinach every day and think I was eating healthily. But most vegetables contain a degree of oxalates and so it's a question of finding the lowest ones. I was surprised to see celery on the list, especially as it's a natural diuretic.

One of the comments under the video on YT said something to the effect that we're finding out nearly everything we eat can kill us :), which isn't really funny but all part of the cycle, and I guess that when we partake of life's rich banquet, we're bound to devour the odd crap sandwich now and then :/. Not eating a wide variety of food brings its own risks in the form of low vitamins, minerals and a poor immune system, so it all comes down to choices in the end, and moderation of course; Now where's that bar of chocolate . . . . :)

I do want to point out that I was eating huge amounts of spinach. I grew a large amount and I was using blending the spinach down so I was able to ingest a ridiculous amount in each smoothie and I had a bumper crop (there is no such thing as moderation in my book, apparently!!) I was also eating a large amount of almonds. So I don't want to instill fear, I just happened to be indulging in very high amounts of foods with high oxalate content nutritious but oxalate laden, unknowingly. I was also eating carrots which are fairly high as well. All of them nutritious and wonderful but the secret is balance and awareness.

The sad thing is these veggies are very nutritious, I had never had noticeable symptoms till I did this smoothy thing with tons of spinach on a daily basis.

The other thing if you find yourself having symptoms of high oxalate content it is not good to just stop eating oxalates abruptly. The body will start dumping them and really create havoc. The goal is to cut down and slowly allow the body to remove the excess amount. What I did was stop the spinach and rhubarb totally, but I still had lower amounts of oxalates as the dumping is absolutely awful and dangerous. If I did start dumping, I would just eat something like half a carrot and that would stop the dumping process.

The amazing body is always working to bring back balance. Brigantia, I bet you are just fine eating a few almonds a day. I believe nuts are wonderful foods. I eat walnuts and pumpkin seeds and sometimes pecans in moderation for their health benefits.

I really, really lucked out in not creating kidney issues. An extremely low oxalate diet for a vegetarian/vegan is pretty challenging, at least that is my feeling on it if you want to eat healthy food. So moderation is key and then more diligence if I have any symptoms.

Really great topic, I feel so fortunate that I figured it out. I probably would have increased them (the high oxalate foods) in my diet feeling I needed to improve it more and if my doctor had her way I would be on lifelong pills to try to hide the symptoms of some "unknown" disorder. Since green spinach smoothies are so popular I bet there are a bunch of people that had my symptoms and don't know what the heck is "wrong" with them and are being medicated.

It pays to be your own advocate when it comes to your health, or if you have a reliable friend or family member to help that is great too. We simply can't just blindly rely on the medical system, this is coming from someone who was a nurse for years.

Having said all that, isn't nature incredible the way each species has a mechanism of protection and preservation? The meek spinach plants would probably be extinct without the oxalates. I do miss spinach and carrots as well, Romaine lettuce is fine to eat and some forms of Kale are lower in oxalates.