The real value of Gold

[sheme]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doo9YLKlgpc

This young man discusses the possible re occurrence of the mandatory confiscation of GOLD that took place in America in the 1933 crash.

[donk]

So how exactly did this play out in practice? How many people were arrested for not giving it up? How did they actually confiscate it? Where is it now? Did they document anything as they confiscated it?

I understand that this order was "passed"...anyone know what it really looked like?

btw--I think it would be much easier for them to "confiscate" retriement funds (401k & 403b are just line of IRS code, after all)...it's easy to take "credits" though...how is the "government" going to take your gold?

[Deega]

So how exactly did this play out in practice? How many people were arrested for not giving it up? How did they actually confiscate it? Where is it now? Did they document anything as they confiscated it?

I understand that this order was "passed"...anyone know what it really looked like?

btw--I think it would be much easier for them to "confiscate" retriement funds (401k & 403b are just line of IRS code, after all)...it's easy to take "credits" though...how is the "government" going to take your gold?


Hi Donk, I find this information on the Web, I don't know if it answers all your questions.

http://mises.org/daily/3056

[sheme]

Looks like they have us all by the S&C . Did you notice the man say they were selling the Chinese Land and fresh water?
I wonder if that is what Harrp is all about. No use hiding your gold see how they are bringing it's value down already just in time to make you hand it over for worthless paper, I bet the plan is to stop the masses ever holding Gold at all.

According to Barrie Trower they can read our minds from a distance if they wish, turn us into sex maniacs or murderers in 30 minutes, even see us through walls they will find out what ever they want, stay Grey.

I bet thats how they turned the soldier who spoke out into a pedophile.

Those tin foil hats are starting to sound sensible.

[donk]

So how exactly did this play out in practice? How many people were arrested for not giving it up? How did they actually confiscate it? Where is it now? Did they document anything as they confiscated it?

I understand that this order was "passed"...anyone know what it really looked like?

btw--I think it would be much easier for them to "confiscate" retriement funds (401k & 403b are just line of IRS code, after all)...it's easy to take "credits" though...how is the "government" going to take your gold?


Hi Donk, I find this information on the Web, I don't know if it answers all your questions.

http://mises.org/daily/3056

I just got done reading that article, and no Deega…all due respect, it not only did not answer any of my questions satisfactorily, it kinda created more, and sorta proved a point been trying to make for a while now.

First of all, what I got out of the article:

The “sleeping with the enemies act of 1917” (it really says “economic intercourse between American citizens and declared enemies of the US”) prohibited trading in gold and “allowed the president to ‘investigate, regulate, or prohibit’ even the ‘hoarding’ of gold by an American” according to the article. I am curious as to what that looked like, especially as a lot of people seem to like to talk about how the government “took all the gold” (I’m reminded of how the illegal Mexicans all “took our jobs”)…to me it sounds like the executive branch took the power to take the gold the they wanted from whom they wanted…not generally effecting the little guy—more than taking gold, it was a power grab—jack the big guys they wanted to take gold from, and reserve the right to take the lil’ guys gold if their found to hoard it. I have to imply from this and the fact we don’t hear detailed stories or first hand accounts that citizens weren’t lining up to hand in their gold and neither was the “gov’t” coming door to door to confiscate it…am I out of line in my thinking here?

Cuz the next paragraph starts thusly: “After two years elapsed, people generally assumed that the Trading with the Enemy Act had passed into desuetude”…I had to look that one up, apparently it means something like dis-use-atude, or disuse, but I love it, I got to use “thusly”!...I’m ending my sentences with words that make me feel smart if he does …but I digress…anyway, it don’t sound like the old sleeping with the enemy gold confiscation of 1917 had much teeth, which is fine, it is not generally the example most people use when they say the “government took our gold”, it was just the basis…fair enough…but it does point out that some patriots trusted their gov’t and happily handed in their gold (I guess at the ministry of truth) and were surprised to find out that not only were they not getting it back, but the pieces of paper they got in exchanged were devalued.

Well, like I said, that’s just a footnote in history, an example of citizens stupidly believing their government, and a precedent and legislation for great later rapings of the citizens….particularly that fateful day in June of ’33 where congress passed a joint resolution (I guess double-powerful) that you couldn’t pay for stuff in gold. The implication he gives is that all contracts in gold were nullified. I am not sure what contracts in gold looked like back then, but if you have any now….well you probably wouldn’t be reading this thread, and know that paper gold is probably as good as a Detroit-based mortgage-backed security. The fact that he doesn’t explain what types of “gold contracts” were common back then, waaaay before sophisticated securities and derivates became all the rage—I have to imagine this effected only the upper middle (at least) and higher, and not super-devestating to the masses at the time suffering the Depression. Again…I see no confiscation of gold, I see no lines of people handing their wedding rings and bullion.

What did happen, according to the article, is that “gold could not be used even as a yard stick for determining how much paper money would be owed.” Whatever that means. I guess it has something to do with Roosevelt erractic monetary policy, I can’t in the context of the article think of it as anything but obfuscation. He goes on to describe how somehow this fact, that Congress has ONLY power to “coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard Weights and Measures”. I have to disagree with and wonder how the eff he comes to the conclusion that makes as he says “the power of Congress over money is in fact very limited”…but that’s a discussion for another time, I suppose. For the next bit he speaks to his theory of what that statement means, in a general.

So then he gets into the court cases (after some theory and interpretation of the Constitution), which I found to be something like: yes to the first two of three cases the book the dude’s selling points out, the gov’t has right to not pay contract in gold, except this was legally wrong according to him. Case three was the lil’ guy won, and fixed that mistake, but then the govt would just take it cuz he’s not allowed to hold gold. The “just” justice appealed valiantly, but apparently it is tough titties for the little guy. So as far as I can tell, that’s how the government takes our gold.

It seem the same way it takes everything else, and that’s only if you make deals with them, or they catch with you some. There is no enforceable “line up drop your gold off”, no door to house searches to make sure you don’t have a nugget under the bed. It doesn’t make what happened ok, in fact it shows that these policies have pretty much stayed in place, except for the “no honoring gold contracts” rule that feel into dis-use-atude…and makes clear that they could have (perhaps HAVE?) pulled that stunt at any time…that’s the added risk to the stupidity of purchasing (more than likely fraudulent) paper gold…and the best example I have seen of the actual enforcement and execution of any gold confiscation policy.

So, back to my questions: was there ever a situation where you need to fear that your gold will be taken from you--and I am excluding gold securities, if you believe in them, we are on a different wavelength, or you are among the privledged few to have found an honest dealer…and you are among the only people I can think of a “gold confiscation” would affect…someone with a valid contract with a gold dealer that could actually deliver metal to you upon your request. This is not an analysis of the gold securities market…I am just allowing for the one exception to my belief….a measure by the gov’t against owning gold will only effect those people (with certificates with an honest dealer that’s not using a “reserve” holdings model favored by most financial institutions), and people that actually trade gold for currency “over the table” (declared to the IRS). Is there any precedent that anyone else would be effected? Do you believe brown boots will kick in your door and try to take your stash?

So there’s parts one and two of my intial reaction (it does not answer my questions, and what questions do I still have), as to the point I have been spouting off about in multiple threads now…this is the perfect example. Crap like the books economists write and the theories and interpretations of court cases and government declarations…and all of the news and analysis and Bloomberg and Wall Street Journal and “common knowledge” is NO DIFFERENT than the “alternative media”. Discernment is SO necessary, and it is so easy to fall into the traps of assumptions about things with no basis in reality. And I am not picking on you Deega, you at least have some basis for the reality you believe in, which I haven’t seen you describe in any detail. My plea is to look more deeply into the implications of the pronouncements and the conclusions drawn from the material you base your reality, but that’s step two, so good on you…what I am hoping for, the purpose of nearly all my recent posts (at least on the econ side) is people start taking step 1…Having some basis for the reality that you are talking about. How many here KNOW that gold was confiscated back in the day…but don’t really have ANY idea what that even means?

I know that I hear it was confiscated a lot, and it seems people fear it “happening again” a lot…but I have no idea what it means. Your article helped me get a better understanding, thank you.

And to add a “solutions” type of wrap here…my conclusions so far on the whole “gold confiscation” thing, backed up by the article you presented, is that the gov’t grabbed the form of currency/wealth that was easiest for them at the time. The gold bonds were the “safest” most liquid, probably the most “real” (to investors, at least) investment of wealth. As a regulated and (in theory) simply accounted for “security”, gold contracts were the most valuable easiest thing to grab. I believe we need to think about the box (not outside of it—this is common sense, within THEIR “rules”) …my personal experience with gold is a grand scale of commentary on the subject, from the nuttiest gold bugs to respected commenters and dealers messages that have supposedly glowing testimonials…what I can discern about the information floating around about gold is that it is pain in the ass to deal in the actual metal. That it’s easy as hell to have a shop and make fake EFTs and bonds and shares and securities claiming to have metal, where it never seems to be timely (if ever) delivered upon request. But even if that is untrue, I do know this…there is a finite amount of it, it is a tangible thing has more than just faith-based value…things you can’t say about a piece of paper with a claim that you own some. And easy to stick in a drawer and tell the tax man you don’t have any. And probably a real pain the ass to actually confiscate…it would be more labor intensive than something I do have experience in:

Your retirement plan.

POP QUIZ: What is your retirement plan and “employee benefit” (executive comp plan, pension, 401k/403b, flex spending accounts)?
ANSWER : A financial product based on lines of IRS tax code, where no tangible assets are stored…only entries on balance sheets

If you are the gov’t, in a still “faith based” enonomy where dollars (or at least “credits”) have value, which is the only scenario we seem to be able to imagine in economic discussions, would you confiscate gold (which I would think has the value gun does to owners—you can pry it from dead hands or dig it out from the treasure chest if you can find the map) or simply alter the tax code?

I am not a financial advisor…but if I had anything left in my 401k and had all the tangible I needed (ie I had disposable income/savings) I would liquidate or take a loan against my 401(k)/403(b) (the penalty is not as bad as I anticipate inflation—and you gotta pay taxes anyway, so forget those taboos) and purchase (with cash, if possible) actual metal with it. If you can’t get your money out (they make it hard), put your money in the Stable Value (guaranteed interest) security all plans are required to have.

Stay vigilant, dig deeper, good night & good luck.

[sheme]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=1933+gold+confiscation&aq=f&oq=1933+gold+confiscation&aqs=chrome.0.57j0l3j62l2.13574j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Take your pick!


http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1365512945.php


Anyone here from Texas?

[donk]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=1933+gold+confiscation&aq=f&oq=1933+gold+confiscation&aqs=chrome.0.57j0l3j62l2.13574j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Take your pick!


http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1365512945.php

Anyone here from Texas?

Did you actually read my post? Or the links you recomended?

About the tenth one on the google search (thanks for that, but I was hoping someone that actually researched this situation could actually provide a source that contained something relevant to my comments)...the first 9 pretty much all parroting the theory and ideas, thus confirming no gold was even "confiscated" so to speak, only in the way i described, from what I can tell...I did find this:

Confiscation, Surrender, or Exchange?
The American gold coin dealers who try to scare their customers into buying more expensive older pre'1933 gold coins usually talk about "confiscation" when referring to the Executive Order 6102 of 3rd April 1933.
We believe the use of the word confiscation is a deliberately misleading exaggeration . It is clear from the wording of the Act that the gold was not confiscated, but had to be sold or exchanged at the then current market value.


....on the only link of value I have found so far...perhaps those interested in the subject would like to actually read it?

BAD LINK WAS HERE


sorry that is the wrong link...the one I was pulling from is this one:

http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/confiscation.html

We also note that may articles appear to state that Roosevelt made holding gold illegal in the USA. This is untrue. The various Executive Orders and Acts allowed each person to hold up to 5 troy ounces of gold, and made exemptions for gold coins of numismatic interest or rarity. It was only illegal to hold gold bullion in excess of five troy ounces. Most families and households would have been able to re-allocate and share out gold holdings in excess of 5 ounces per person, for example a family of 5 would be able to hold up to 25 ounces between them, plus "rarities". Five ounces is worth over $6,500 at current (2010) price levels, and 25 ounces over $30,000. Only a very small number of individuals would have been forced to exchange their gold. Most private gold holdings would not have been publicly known, and many more individuals may have easily chosen to keep their gold holdings concealed, or possibly simply designated excess holdings as being of numismatic interest or with rarity value.


This is the type of information I feel at least should be side by side with what I see as the "fear mongering" of the "alternative financial information outlets", the trap we seem to discuss in the cases of "whistleblowers" and "spirituality" but seem incapable of applying to mundane things like economics & politics.

One last piece from that article--which I now appreciate you (kinda) pointing me to:

Anecdotally it is known that many people did not turn in their gold in 1933. Today, it would be even more problematic and governments would be unlikely to send the police door to door to confiscate the tiny amounts of gold coins and bars held by its citizens.

[sheme]

That is a bit unfair donk I am not fear mongering just sharing a stumble upon! I have no gold -I figure most of Avalon has little or no gold. All I am doing is intuitively placing before Avalon and it's subscribers information that which may be of use to honest men.

If this makes you fearful I am sorry.

I have just noticed someone else has a similar thread running of which I was unaware- is it not a coincidence that we are both impelled to share a similar message. peace to you.

[Mulder]

.....................................

[donk]

That is a bit unfair donk I am not fear mongering just sharing a stumble upon! I have no gold -I figure most of Avalon has little or no gold. All I am doing is intuitively placing before Avalon and it's subscribers information that which may be of use to honest men.

If this makes you fearful I am sorry.

I have just noticed someone else has a similar thread running of which I was unaware- is it not a coincidence that we are both impelled to share a similar message. peace to you.

Aw, please forgive and try not to misinterpret my tone...I'm always half joking and trying hard to come off that way. I totally didnt mean to pick on you and I wasn't even directing any of what I was trying toward you...I used your post to express what I have been trying to get at with no one seeming to look at a specific thing I thought was important at the time, totally selfish of me but I really didnt mean that by it or anything personal. I apologize, much love

[sigma6]

So how exactly did this play out in practice? How many people were arrested for not giving it up? How did they actually confiscate it? Where is it now? Did they document anything as they confiscated it?

I understand that this order was "passed"...anyone know what it really looked like?

btw--I think it would be much easier for them to "confiscate" retriement funds (401k & 403b are just line of IRS code, after all)...it's easy to take "credits" though...how is the "government" going to take your gold?
401, 403, IRS is all paper records, Gold is more then numbers on paper. Doesn't surprise me in the least, actually I can see something like that being very possible.

[sheme]

Thanks donk, love you too. LOL

[Lost Soul]

The reason for US govt declaring gold as verboten does not exist today. We're not on the hold standard, gold certificates are not issued by the Fed Res and the dollar isn't tied to gold. Even if another EO was signed, compliance would be less as the average American trusts the govt less than his 1933 counter part. I suspect that if any of it is seized, it would be from unallocated gold holding pools like GLD, COMEX and safety deposit boxes of those identified by the government as enemies of the state.

[Prodigal Son]

Their gold is filled with tungsten. Mine is filled with .38 caliber buckshot :thumb:

[donk]

I believe both of you are absolutely correct, and "they" are just demonizing people collecting REAL gold. It will always be able to store value (for many reasons) in any society that values amassing more than you need (because fake good was detectable even back in the day) or actually has more than they need (so it can be used cuz it's shiny and pretty)

Of course we all know the tech value. But what value is scaring people about it? I think, so whoever is doing the scaring doesn't have to worry about anyone else amassing more than them

[gripreaper]

Havn't ya'll seen the real value? I mean, why own and hold a metal which has been getting taken out back behind the woodshed and beaten, losing most of it's value against all currency?

http://www.etfdigest.com/images/stories/davesdaily/3051/image024.gif

You could be riding the great recovery in stocks! I mean, look at the rally we've been having so far this banner year of 2013! All the old highs have been taken out and it's off to Blue Sky country from here on in!

http://www.etfdigest.com/images/stories/davesdaily/3051/image004.gif

So, you better realize where the real value is and get on board the train before it leaves the station forever!!! ALL wealth is being created in the stock market and nowhere else! :p:rolleyes:;):cool::eek:

[GlassSteagallfan]

---
The OP is about confiscation, but "The Real Value of Gold" title made me open the thread. Silver value is used here instead of gold - and this post is off topic...



Here's my take on the value of gold or silver after a collapse of the us dollar:

Silver today (April 2013) $28 - Loaf of bread $2 = 14 loaves of bread

With inflation and manipulated metal prices, in the future:

Silver (April 2015) $50 - loaf of bread $5 = 10 loaves of bread

Silver (April 2017) $70 - loaf of bread $10 = 7 loaves of bread

2018 - collapse, dollar is worthless. You own silver, but how do you decide what it is worth? It's worth something, but what is the yard stick of measurement? Will you get 14 or 10 or 7 or even 4 loaves of bread for an ounce of silver?

What is "The Real Value of Silver"?

[donk]

I'm fairly certain the real value of anything is what you are willing to pay for it. That's ultimately the lesson behind all these recent economy articles...my comments at least: think about what is REAL.

I hope that some day I live to see a world we share real values with each other, rather than attempting to manipulate the most from each other for ourselves. It's a hard thing to teach in this world.

[Anchor]

Here is how the Aussie version of Gold confiscation works... It is already written into the Australian Bank act 1959.

By proclamation (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ba195972/s42.html)of the Governor the section on Gold becomes active.

Then:

> A person shall not, except with the consent in writing of the Reserve Bank, take or send any gold out of Australia.

Only people authorized by the Reserve Bank could buy and sell gold.

Section 42 is the part where all Australians holding Gold over the proscribed amount are required to deliver it to the Reserve Bank of Australia.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ba195972/s42.html

Delivery of gold

(1) Subject to this Part, a person who has any gold in the person's possession or under the person's control, not being:

(a) gold coins the total value of the gold content of which does not exceed the prescribed amount; or

(b) gold lawfully in the possession of that person for the purpose of being worked or used by that person in connexion with the person's profession or trade;

shall deliver the gold to the Reserve Bank, or as prescribed, within one month after the gold comes into the person's possession or under the person's control or, if the gold is in the person's possession or under the person's control on any date on which this Part comes into operation, within one month after that date.

So there you are my fellow Aussies - if you have gold, it can all be taken from you if the governor needs it for some reason :)


John..

[donk]

Seems you Aussies never overcomplicate stuff like we love to so much!! Thanks for sharing that

Sounds like you don't got enough lawyers over there...we'll export you some of ours...

[conk]

Sorry to repeat this tired old story, but it's true.

Ignore the moving prices of metals and look at the big picture. An ounce of gold would buy a quality men's suit of clothes 100 years ago (1 oz = $35). Today, one ounce of gold (now $1,600) will buy a quality men's suit of clothes. The merchant would laugh at your for trying to buy the suit today for $35.

Funny how inflation harms the poor, yet makes the rich much richer.