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Cidersomerset

6th May 2013, 21:38

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.44.2/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

6 May 2013 Last updated at 07:38

Working gun made with 3D printer

M3tLAhhR8E0

Science reporter, BBC World Service, Texas

The BBC's Rebecca Morelle saw the 3D-printed gun's first test in Austin, Texas

The world's first gun made with 3D printer technology has been successfully fired in
the US.The controversial group which created the firearm, Defense Distributed,
plans to make the blueprints available online.The group has spent a year trying to
create the firearm, which was successfully tested on Saturday at a firing range
south of Austin, Texas.

Anti-gun campaigners have criticised the project.

Europe's law enforcement agency said it was monitoring developments.Victoria
Baines, from Europol's cybercrime centre, said that at present criminals were more
likely to pursue traditional routes to obtain firearms.She added, however: "But as
time goes on and as this technology becomes more user friendly and more cost
effective, it is possible that some of these risks will emerge."Defense Distributed is
headed by Cody Wilson, a 25-year-old law student at the University of Texas.

Mr Wilson said: "I think a lot of people weren't expecting that this could be done."

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/67431000/jpg/_67431202_gun.jpg

3D-printed gun parts The gun was assembled from separate printed components
made from ABS plastic - only the firing pin was made from metal
3D printing has been hailed as the future of manufacturing.

The technology works by building up layer upon layer of material - typically plastic -
to build complex solid objects.The idea is that as the printers become cheaper,
instead of buying goods from shops, consumers will instead be able to download
designs and print out the items at home.But as with all new technologies, there are
risks as well as benefits.

Personal liberties

The gun was made on a 3D printer that cost $8,000 (£5,140) from the online
auction site eBay. It was assembled from separate printed components made from
ABS plastic - only the firing pin was made from metal.Mr Wilson, who describes
himself as a crypto-anarchist, said his plans to make the design available
were "about liberty".

He told the BBC: "There is a demand of guns - there just is. There are states all
over the world that say you can't own firearms - and that's not true anymore.

"I'm seeing a world where technology says you can pretty much be able to have
whatever you want. It's not up to the political players any more."

Asked if he felt any sense of responsibility about whose hands the gun might fall
into, he told the BBC: "I recognise the tool might be used to harm other people -
that's what the tool is - it's a gun.

"But I don't think that's a reason to not do it - or a reason not to put it out there."

Gun control

To make the gun, Mr Wilson received a manufacturing and seller's licence from the
US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).Donna Sellers, from
the ATF, told BBC News that the 3D-printed gun, as long as it was not a National
Firearms Act weapon (an automatic gun, for example), was legal in the US.She
said: "[In the US] a person can manufacture a firearm for their own use. However,
if they engage in the business of manufacture to sell a gun, they need a licence."

Amid America's ongoing gun debate in the wake of the shootings at Sandy Hook
Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, US congressman Steve Israel recently
called for a ban on 3D guns under the Undetectable Firearms Act.

Groups looking to tighten US gun laws have also expressed concern.

Leah Gunn Barrett, from New Yorkers Against Gun Violence, has said: "These guns
could fall into the hands of people who should not have guns - criminals, people
who are seriously mentally ill, people who are convicted of domestic violence, even
children."

3D printing technology has already been used by some criminal organisations to
create card readers - "skimmers" - that are inserted into bank machines.
Many law enforcement agencies around the world now have people dedicated to

monitoring cybercrime and emerging technologies such as 3D printers.

Ms Baines from Europol said: "What we know is that technology proceeds much
more quickly than we expect it to. So by getting one step ahead of the
technological developments, we hope and believe we will be able to get one step
ahead of the criminals as well."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22421185

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SGHOFxeaDr4

InCiDeR

6th May 2013, 22:06

They could have created a lot of things, but they made a gun and call it an act "about liberty".

Our species call ourselves intelligent and all we ever do is to find new ways do destroy ourselves and the world we live in. Maybe we should revaluate the meaning of the word intelligent.

Sunny-side-up

7th May 2013, 00:32

Maybe those that kill each other are in a subconscious bid to release each other from the mortal coil?
As if subconsciously we are doing each other a favour lol.
Because we all subconsciously know we are all immortal beings held in slavery!

nickc2496

7th May 2013, 14:35

Nice now all the crazies can have guns seet as yee haww (facepalm) ....this is not a good thing

TargeT

7th May 2013, 15:09

Well, since not a single American has responded (and that's where this was made) I'll interject my thoughts here.

I see a lot of " State sponsored thought" here, guns are for crazy people? guns are for destroying things? think of the implications that those very specific connotations have.

What do I see a gun as? simply a tool, neither negative nor positive. the same as a hammer, it can be used to build shelters, or to crush a skull (the two most extreme examples of uses I can think of).

the fact that you instantly see a tool and associate it with "crazies" or destruction when most Americans see it connected to "safety", "Defense", "protection" and "food gathering" is fascinating to me.

Since the very tool you speak of is (historically) the one that will be used against you when governments over grow themselves & become tyrannical (and looking at the flags represented by the posters names above I'd say there's not a lot of path left to travel for that destination) your thoughts on a tool are exactly as one in the control structure over you would want.

shed your filters and view this objectively if possible, if not do not prejudge something as complex as liberty nor the methods with which it takes to secure and defend it.

All that aside, if you look into this the gun can be fired maybe 4 times before destroying itself & that's only in the best case (several barrels have exploded already on the makers).

I'd call this more of an intelectual "can we do it" exersize & less of a usable weapon production method.

donk

7th May 2013, 17:29

TargeT

7th May 2013, 17:38

How much does it cost to make something with a 3d printer?

I realize the OP mentions 8k cost for the printer, but once the thing is made and printer purchased--blueprints available and all, is it a couple bucks for the materials, feed in blueprints, and viola...

not a "couple of bucks" but that gun (assuming the prints were aquired free, which they can be right now) would cost around $10 in electricity and ABS plastic (I don't know how much the firing pin consts, that would be additional, plus ammo of course).

if 3d printing starts functioning (and it does already, but not in a viable way yet) easily with metals & pared with internet sharing and opensource good will this world will be well on it's way to drastically changing.

your garage could be the manufacturing point for a new vehicle, repair items for your house... the posibilties are pretty much limitless.

Now if we could just conqure that energy issue (I mean, we already have with the LFTR reactor back in the 1940's, but if we could just let the cat out of the bag, as it were....) we would start a grassroots/homegrown economical movement that crushes corporations and central control under it's own weight.

RMorgan

7th May 2013, 19:23

InCiDeR

7th May 2013, 19:47

...Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western spiral arm of the galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this, at a distance of roughly ninety million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet, whose ape descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.

This planet has, or had, a problem, which was this. Most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small, green pieces of paper, which is odd, because on the whole, it wasn't the small, green pieces of paper which were unhappy.

And so the problem remained, and lots of the people were mean, and most of them were miserable, even the ones with digital watches. Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake coming down from the trees in the first place, and some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no-one should ever have left the oceans...

― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

In my opinion this was our first big mistake:
qtbOmpTnyOc

donk

7th May 2013, 21:07

The tyrannic scenario I hear people like Alex Jones talking about is already 98% there and most of your people don´t even realize it.

No offense taken, raf, I think you described the situation brilliantly...I take one exception: you were actually generous though giving us 2%.

It's been a brave new world since about 1984 (or sooner)...

TargeT

7th May 2013, 22:22

Hey folks,

I see this accomplishment mostly as a statement of civil disobedience, meaning that people from the US will not tolerate having their constitutional rights removed and, for this, I value this enterprise. The people behind this are sending a powerful message.

absolutely, it was (almost) purely symbolic.

However, I´m still not sure about how a highly armed population would prevent tyranny in the current global scenario. I mean, we´re talking about a possible totally asymmetrical warfare scenario, where regular guns are nothing compared to jets, chemical weapons, tanks, missiles, drones, etc... Sure, it could make things harder for the tyrants, but it´s very unlikely to stop them.

Here's where I think history tells us much, the absolute demorilization that a drawn out warfare brings not to mention when it's a population ordered to turn on itself, if guns do nothing other than that we win. The fighiting force that is depraved a quick engaugement will start to question its actions & vietnam like outcomes are bound to exsist ( the line was pushed very far at that time, the US tested it's boundaries and was put in it's place HARD by the population... if you read between the historic lines

I think that preventing tyranny is much more of a process of not allowing it to even start, than to strike it once it´s already established; From this perspective, why haven´t the US citizens done anything to prevent its current situation? The US citizens, the most armed civilian population in the world, didn´t do anything to prevent tyranny so far, at least in modern times. well we are a lot less worse off than all of Europe & england & a australia & a few other countries; so I don't see it as a totally here yet, the totalitarian-tip-toe continues.

In my opinion, freedom is a state of mind; Guns are useless if people are not educated to be free. I mean no offense to my North-American friends, but among other so called "first world countries", you are by far the easiest to manipulate, the most brainwashed and psychologically messed up. The tyrannic scenario I hear people like Alex Jones talking about is already 98% there and most of your people don´t even realize it. I've been to multiple countries in Europe and the UK.. I'd say we are definately far from the easiest to manipulate, we just get more press coverage. Walking around the UK & Europe is like being on the set of Big brother, some large cities in the US are starting to look like this, but not many.

I´m afraid that, when a tyrannic government is fully established in your country, even if your citizens have all the guns in the world, it will be too late. Too late to prevent a conflict, but since the pyramid scheme needs the many to support the few, extreme caution must be taken by those at the top, this is what keeps our modicum of freedom

Besides, I believe it´s very unlikely that the government will declare an official dictatorship overnight, I mean, the old fashioned way. They will do like they always do; They will fabricate an external threat, something really terrifying, and them most people will beg for their protection and love to serve its ideologies. Those who rebel will be simply declared traitors and terrorists and will be hunted like animals.

In the book Brave New World, Huxley defined that the perfect dictatorship would have the appearance of a democracy, but would basically be a prison without walls in which the prisoners would not even dream of escaping. It would essentially be a system of slavery where, through entertainment and consumption the slaves would love their servitude.

The above model of dictatorship is already there, folks, and what your highly armed population did about it so far? Of course, you´re addicted to it, and any decent junkie would never kill his dealer and risk having no one else to get his fix from.

I don't have too much of an issue with people Choosing to do something, it's when people are forced to do something that I frown; right now we are forced to do manythings and that's the issue, however a lot of people choose to do those same thinigs... apathy & fraud are our main issues.

To make things worse, you have imposed this model to the whole world by force...Your government told you that this was the way to make the whole world "free", just like you, and you bought it hook line and sinker, war after war, coup after coup, embargo after embargo, sabotage after sabotage, all in the name of "freedom"...But this is another story... well this has been happening since the roman times, so your "you" in this case is a very very broad label, but I agree force is never the answer in this.

Anyway, you guys are always looking for strength and confidence in guns, while the biggest strength that is resides in the mind, and this kind have been stolen from most of your population for decades, through a massive propagandist system, and it´s been happening so slowly and gradually that most don´t even realize it.

Guns are indeed tools, operated by organic machines called human beings, who are then coordinated by a tremendously mysterious kind of software called mind. If one´s mind is weak, or a whole population´s mind is, don´t expect that guns will make it any stronger.

Again, I mean no offense to anyone. This is just my opinion.

Raf.

how many times have you been to the USA? I think you'd be suprised at the number of poeple that are pretty free thinkers and clear of the "system" (or at least partially clear, the multilayered beast has a hold on almost everyone at some level).

Look at this forum, its got a large contingency of US citizens.

I have hope, quite a lot actually.

Strat

7th May 2013, 23:15

When approaching this topic, I think the biggest mistake non US citizens make is a very human one. A lot of assumptions are made as to why Americans want to hold on to our guns. I don't think the American culture is understood very well.

I've seen a lot of posts about how US citizens (hereby referred to as 'we/us') are afraid of this or that, and therefore find security in our guns. Ya know, the constitution says that we can have them in case the government get's crazy. Or we're paranoid about someone breaking into our house or whatever. I am sure for some people that is true.

In my experience, a lot of us just get them cause there freakin cool. I'm sorry but it's true. I think it's cool. Maybe it's media brainwashing (I seriously don't think so). If you fire a 12ga it's a lot like revving a powerful car engine; it's just rad.

So for a lot of us, we buy a shotty or whatever, shoot it, then it ends up sitting in a closet collecting dust.

Now, regarding the big question, fear:
For sure, I am more comfortable knowing I have guns in my closet then not. Now, some will say I'm contradicting myself a bit here. That's not really the case though. I think about someone breaking into my house about as much as I think of getting into a car wreck. I don't think about stuff like that it would stress me out. So no, I do not actively fear robbery.

I'm pretty sure we have an astronomically higher level of gun related murders in the world. So people say it's pretty cut and dry that if we eliminate the guns, then the gun violence goes away. That works in theory, but as usual, not in reality.

My issue is the absurd amount of illegal and unregistered guns in the US. It is as easy to find an illegal gun here as it is to find illegal drugs. It's a market of its own. Every time I bring that up folks just ignore that fact. I personally know someone who did years in prison because he was getting weapons from Russians. All sorts of weapons, he could get hand grenades for $500.

That's one person that I know. ME!

Have you ever traveled out of your home country? I'm sure you read about the country you planned on visiting but how different was the experience from what you were expecting? You have to live in this country to intimately understand what's going on. I've lived here my whole life and I don't have a goddamn clue as to what's going on over in Cali, or how the people act. People are completely different. Try dealing with someone in the south then try dealing with someone up north. The tone between the two is like night and day.

Here's something I want to request to opinionated foreigners (I don't mean that in a smart ass way, I'm just blunt because that's the most effective way to communicate if toes aren't stepped on):

When addressing topics about gun control or corporate world take over, choose your words carefully. Not for my sake necessarily, but for the easily offended. Wording a counter argument to these issues needs to be done carefully when addressing Americans. See, we get blamed for this and that. When you say Americans are responsible for 14yr old girl child labor in Indonesia..that's a bit annoying. It's just that I have to hear it a lot. I know nobody means offense so I don't think about it, but it's like making a fat joke around overweight people you don't know.

I often have to employ my strategy of 'cutting people out of my life like cancer.' When you say Americans are responsible for this or that, you're talking about me, my best friend, my 90yr old grandparents, my buddy getting married this Saturday, etc. You can say "I don't mean you" but I say **** that, I'm proud of my home. I got ripped off in Europe (Rome) once for saying I'm American. I'd do it again.

I understand. Honestly if you did directly insult me like that it wouldn't bother me (grew up with witty assholes). But again, it's the other folk you gotta watch for.

Why should you care whether or not you step on American toes? Cause you're not helping the 14 yr old girl who has no rights in that Indonesian sweat shop by pointing the finger. I don't know how to stop the beast. I'm like everyone else here, just another brick in the wall. So please, help me. I'm a nice person and I don't want to be painted as a tyrant.

God bless all of you I hope you all win a million dollars and reach enlightenment at the same time.

(Didn't really get to proof read this so sorry if it's worded funny)

OH! Almost forgot. One of the smartest comments I've heard from a foreigner (English) was this, "It's an American problem which needs an American solution."

RMorgan

8th May 2013, 00:28

Hey TargeT and Strat,

Guys, don´t get me wrong. I´m not, by any means, in favor of gun control.

I live in a country where guns are prohibited but with one of the highest rates of gun crimes in the world; I know gun control doesn´t work from personal experience. The good people are kept unprotected and vulnerable while the bad guys buy guns in the black market anyway...and the police, well, it only arrives in your home after you´re dead, so they are worthless.

You know, here in this forum, I feel pretty much comfortable to talk about anything, including international issues that logically involve other people´s countries. Just like I feel comfortable if someone decides to point Brazil´s issues, which are so many that I feel ashamed about being a Brazilian most of the times. If you ever ask me to tell the truth about Brazil, I will say it the way it is, without patriotic excuses.

About Americans, I´m pretty sure they (you) are generally the coolest and most respectful foreigners I´ve ever had the pleasure to meet. Americans and Brazilians are very much similar in this aspect; Both are generally very friendly, helpful and polite.

I was only pointing that, guns can´t kill ideas (or ideals); It works both ways: Tyrants can´t kill revolutionary ideals with their guns, but revolutionaries can´t kill tyrannic ideals with their guns either.

Guns will protect you from burglars, but will not protect you from your government.

This whole game is about the mind; Revolutions happen, with or without guns. The only requirement for a revolution to happen is the readiness of the masses´s minds.

The thing is, you guys (citizens of the US) have a lot of responsibility. Remember what uncle Ben said to Peter Parker? "With great power comes great responsibilities."

You can´t deny that the US influence over the whole world is overwhelmingly huge, in all aspects of the meaning of the word influence. Whatever happens up there, whether it´s good or bad, it reflects globally. So, as soon as a revolution starts up there, the whole world will follow, but if a really bad thing happens up there, the whole world will be victimized by it either.

So, if the US wants to continue to rule the Earth, it better get things right as soon as possible, or give up the position to other nation(s) that may or not do a better job.

This is a critical moment in history. I´m not sure what will happen to the world if people don´t wake up urgently, but I´m sure that the US citizens are, right now, the ones who have most of the power to decide the future of humanity.

Cheers,

Raf.

Maia Gabrial

8th May 2013, 15:45

All I can say is "where there's a will, there's a way".... People are ingenious...

Carmody

8th May 2013, 16:32

Some of the derision heaped on 3d printers is aimed at keeping the centralized marketing systems in place and functional. If people can make the plastic based hardware and devices they want, then this will potentially, over time, cause a drop in some aspects of commercial systems of marketing and sales. A decentralization of power in some economic systems and a corresponding increase in personal power for those who choose this route. this self making route that is getting less and less expensive by the day.

Kickstarter seems to be rife with 3d printing hardware/devices that are coming up (recognized as) as being quite successful.

http://www.kickstarter.com/ (search for 'printing')

Team Zen

8th May 2013, 18:14

This reminds me of that movie In the Line of Fire- and he didn't even need a 3D printer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XSKPBef37c

TargeT

8th May 2013, 18:15

Some of the derision heaped on 3d printers is aimed at keeping the centralized marketing systems in place and functional.

I think this is a huge thrust behind the hype of 3d-printers printing weapons (and by inference demonizing 3d-printers).

All of "TPTB" control systems run off hierarchy & centralized models, breaking this in any way is going to be very quickly opposed.

this constant battle of central management or distributed power base has been pretty much "one way" as far as government is concerned for a long time now, the slow (sometimes fast) erosion of the 10th amendment (states rights/powers) being the most important and examplitory of this creep to a central federal control base (even though the federal government via the constitution is suppose to have very limited power).

a good more recognizable example is the push to "cloud computing", where we see all the benefits of central management advertised and none of the downfalls.

Strat

8th May 2013, 19:27

Guys, don´t get me wrong. I´m not, by any means, in favor of gun control.

Ahh, I assumed you were but I wasn't sure to what extent.

You know, here in this forum, I feel pretty much comfortable to talk about anything, including international issues that logically involve other people´s countries. Just like I feel comfortable if someone decides to point Brazil´s issues, which are so many that I feel ashamed about being a Brazilian most of the times. If you ever ask me to tell the truth about Brazil, I will say it the way it is, without patriotic excuses.

You absolutely should feel free to say what's on your mind and even let a little emotion leak into the post. I'd prefer you to be blunt so long as you remain respectful (you always are but not everyone else). Especially on this forum. I think your example of how you're willing to talk about your country is a bit off though.

About Americans, I´m pretty sure they (you) are generally the coolest and most respectful foreigners I´ve ever had the pleasure to meet.

No argument there!

I was only pointing that, guns can´t kill ideas (or ideals); It works both ways: Tyrants can´t kill revolutionary ideals with their guns, but revolutionaries can´t kill tyrannic ideals with their guns either.

Guns will protect you from burglars, but will not protect you from your government.

I somewhat agree with you, somewhat disagree. History has examples, but if we go that route we'll need a new thread.

The thing is, you guys (citizens of the US) have a lot of responsibility. Remember what uncle Ben said to Peter Parker? "With great power comes great responsibilities."

This, right here, is where the black and white disagreement is about to happen. (No hostility, you know me. Much love.)

You can´t deny that the US influence over the whole world is overwhelmingly huge, in all aspects of the meaning of the word influence. Whatever happens up there, whether it´s good or bad, it reflects globally. So, as soon as a revolution starts up there, the whole world will follow, but if a really bad thing happens up there, the whole world will be victimized by it either.

Yeah, unfortunately this is 100% true. The first time I flew to Europe I was so excited. I remember landing in London, excited to see what this foreign land is like. The VERY FIRST thing I saw was a TGI Fridays...goddamnit. I also visited the nicest McDonalds in the world (in Rome) and the Hard Rock in Munich.

This is a critical moment in history. I´m not sure what will happen to the world if people don´t wake up urgently, but I´m sure that the US citizens are, right now, the ones who have most of the power to decide the future of humanity.

Okay, here's my biggest issue that I was referring to (maybe I'm quoting the wrong quote but you get the idea). A lot of people feel as though American citizens have blood on their hands. So by that logic, we're guilty and it's up to us to fix the problem.

The thing is, instead of sitting by idly, why don't you try to help said American? Just do something. Educate yourself then educate the American. We all (everyone capable of seeing this text) need to join forces. I feel really singled out as a free thinking American. Most of my friends are zombies. I was as well for a long time. My 'awakening' (I really hate that term) is a neat story. Most Americans aren't fortunate enough to know folks that can wake them up (have to start tap-dancing, sorry).

Even for the 'awakened' American, think about that persons average day. 9-5 slavery. How do you win this battle when you're exhausted? Most people don't read. Most 'awakened' people in general don't read, they just watch documentaries. I'm not saying that's bad, but there's a market for documentaries. The history channel talks about UFOs. Do you think they really give a ****, or are they turning profit cause everyone thinks UFO's are figgin cool. It's fun to talk about over a few beers. **** gets crazy when you get educated.

So I mean, it's astronomically difficult and statistically impossible for me to make any difference on my own. That being said, I do have a plan of attack, goes back to what I said about being educated. At the moment it consists of heavy study. I've constantly got my nose in a book. As the guy in my avatar said, "Know your enemy."

If non-Americans are in the same 9-5 boat here's a way you can fight the power: Don't buy you coffee from Starbucks. Stop buying Coke at McDonalds. Don't buy any American made vehicle. Don't heat up your Pillsbury muffins in your GE oven. Don't buy any American made shoe (technically very hard to find 'American made' shoes). Don't watch any American media (even if it's free). etc etc. I'm not trying to be rude, it's just a fact. I am absolutely challenging every foreigner to put their money where their mouth is though.

We're all in this together! No more borders.

RMorgan

8th May 2013, 21:26

...Okay, here's my biggest issue that I was referring to (maybe I'm quoting the wrong quote but you get the idea). A lot of people feel as though American citizens have blood on their hands. So by that logic, we're guilty and it's up to us to fix the problem.

The thing is, instead of sitting by idly, why don't you try to help said American? Just do something. Educate yourself then educate the American. We all (everyone capable of seeing this text) need to join forces. I feel really singled out as a free thinking American. Most of my friends are zombies. I was as well for a long time. My 'awakening' (I really hate that term) is a neat story. Most Americans aren't fortunate enough to know folks that can wake them up (have to start tap-dancing, sorry).

Even for the 'awakened' American, think about that persons average day. 9-5 slavery. How do you win this battle when you're exhausted? Most people don't read. Most 'awakened' people in general don't read, they just watch documentaries. I'm not saying that's bad, but there's a market for documentaries. The history channel talks about UFOs. Do you think they really give a ****, or are they turning profit cause everyone thinks UFO's are figgin cool. It's fun to talk about over a few beers. **** gets crazy when you get educated.

So I mean, it's astronomically difficult and statistically impossible for me to make any difference on my own. That being said, I do have a plan of attack, goes back to what I said about being educated. At the moment it consists of heavy study. I've constantly got my nose in a book. As the guy in my avatar said, "Know your enemy."

If non-Americans are in the same 9-5 boat here's a way you can fight the power: Don't buy you coffee from Starbucks. Stop buying Coke at McDonalds. Don't buy any American made vehicle. Don't heat up your Pillsbury muffins in your GE oven. Don't buy any American made shoe (technically very hard to find 'American made' shoes). Don't watch any American media (even if it's free). etc etc. I'm not trying to be rude, it's just a fact. I am absolutely challenging every foreigner to put their money where their mouth is though.

We're all in this together! No more borders.

Hey strat,

Man, is always nice talking to you. You have a great mind.

Well, we´re all in this together, after all, we´re one race living in one planet; Everything that happens end up affecting everyone in the world.

The thing is, and that´s where the problem begin, Americans used to be pretty happy living their dream when your government was only exploiting and plundering foreign nations. As soon as your government started to exploit the American people, like it does today, only then, the citizens started to consider the possibility that something isn´t right.

It´s sad to say this; but if the American economy was doing great right now, there would be no talk about war injustice and major flaws on its foreign policy. Unfortunately, such attitude has created a great deal of hatred towards your nation.

So, ironically, only now that the American people in general are starting to taste a little bit of their own poison (made of selfishness and greed) they are starting to realize that the dream is over. I just hope the vast majority of the American population wont need to die from such poisoning before really doing something about it, otherwise I´m afraid it would be too late.

Regarding boycott, I agree with you. I see excessive consumption as one of the major contemporary problems, and I really think twice before buying anything. I don´t consume a lot of big brands, but not because their nationality, but because of their inhumane corporate nature.

Anyway, I know how it must be hard for you to try to shake other people awake, if that´s even possible. To be frank with you, I have no clue about how we could solve this problem, or how you could find more efficient ways to awake your fellow compatriots.

Sometimes I think that not only the US, but the whole world, is like that fat man, who ignored to follow his doctor´s advice and kept drinking and smoking and eating fastfood like there was no tomorrow; You know, such kind of fellows only wake up and decide to change their habits when their are lucky enough to survive a heart attack or a stroke. Some of them, on the other hand, don´t even have a second chance.

Cheers,

Raf.

TargeT

9th May 2013, 14:10

The thing is, and that´s where the problem begin, Americans used to be pretty happy living their dream when your government was only exploiting and plundering foreign nations. As soon as your government started to exploit the American people, like it does today, only then, the citizens started to consider the possibility that something isn´t right.

It´s sad to say this; but if the American economy was doing great right now, there would be no talk about war injustice and major flaws on its foreign policy. Unfortunately, such attitude has created a great deal of hatred towards your nation.

So, ironically, only now that the American people in general are starting to taste a little bit of their own poison (made of selfishness and greed) they are starting to realize that the dream is over. I just hope the vast majority of the American population wont need to die from such poisoning before really doing something about it, otherwise I´m afraid it would be too late.

This is just not historically true, in the 1960's (about 57 years after our government STARTED exploiting and plundering the USA; we are in the very final stages now) we had the highest living standards we've had, and yet our anti-war & distrust levels of the government were SKY HIGH compared to now; in fact I'd say the protesters of the 1960's would look at today’s culture (even the "occupy movement") and shake their heads in shame.
we had so many active movements going on at that time, huge protests (some peaceful, some not) marches on Washington, things that make today's efforts pale in comparison.

You are displaying a typical "stupid Americans" (extreme label) attitude that a lot of the world holds & I am sure is a desired attitude for a nation who's is in decline by design.

I'm not saying this in a disparaging way, I don't see any other way for one people to view another right now except through the filter of an agenda lead media, the internet is starting to help change this but it has only been around 20 years now (1993 was the first world wide web usage (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/happy-birthday-world-wide-web/)).

In short: the multilayered beast rises again!

as for "awakening" other people, I think the easiest way is to carefully expose hypocrisy especially in area's that the subject sees themselves as knowledgeable in & encourage questioning.

My signature (before I translated it to Latin) used to say Question everything, always... it still is my motto to this day; in fact I do not do it enough.

RMorgan

9th May 2013, 14:34

This is just not historically true, in the 1960's (about 57 years after our government STARTED exploiting and plundering the USA; we are in the very final stages now) we had the highest living standards we've had, and yet our anti-war & distrust levels of the government were SKY HIGH compared to now; in fact I'd say the protesters of the 1960's would look at today’s culture (even the "occupy movement") and shake their heads in shame.
we had so many active movements going on at that time, huge protests (some peaceful, some not) marches on Washington, things that make today's efforts pale in comparison.

Thanks for your input, TargeT.

Well, I may be wrong, but I think those protests and anti-war movements from the 60s were mostly caused by the huge amount of young American boys who were dying in the Vietnam war, not by the injustice of the war itself. Would such huge civilian rebellion happen if the US was winning the war with just the "regular" level of casualties?

Anyway, I´m a big fan of the 60s, specially the high quality artistic manifestations that were caused by such huge changing energy. I must say the you Americans are one of the most, if not the most, creative people on Earth; It´s just too bad that nowadays most people use such creative energy for bad purposes.

You are displaying a typical "stupid Americans" (extreme label) attitude that a lot of the world holds & I am sure is a desired attitude for a nation who's is in decline by design.

Yes. You´re probably right. It´s really hard to escape from such stereotyping. The level of anti-americanism is rapidly growing all over the world. Sadly, most people can´t discern between the American institution and the American people.

I really repudiate the institution, but, as I said before, every single American I´ve ever met in person was really cool and respectful.

I'm not saying this in a disparaging way, I don't see any other way for one people to view another right now except through the filter of an agenda lead media, the internet is starting to help change this but it has only been around 20 years now (1993 was the first world wide web usage (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/happy-birthday-world-wide-web/)).

In short: the multilayered beast rises again!

as for "awakening" other people, I think the easiest way is to carefully expose hypocrisy especially in area's that the subject sees themselves as knowledgeable in & encourage questioning.

My signature (before I translated it to Latin) used to say Question everything, always... it still is my motto to this day; in fact I do not do it enough.

Thanks for the reminder; Questioning everything is something that should be reminded daily, indeed.

Cheers,

Raf.

TargeT

9th May 2013, 16:34

Thanks for your input, TargeT.

Well, I may be wrong, but I think those protests and anti-war movements from the 60s were mostly caused by the huge amount of young American boys who were dying in the Vietnam war, not by the injustice of the war itself. Would such huge civilian rebellion happen if the US was winning the war with just the "regular" level of casualties?

Anyway, I´m a big fan of the 60s, specially the high quality artistic manifestations that were caused by such huge changing energy. I must say the you Americans are one of the most, if not the most, creative people on Earth; It´s just too bad that nowadays most people use such creative energy for bad purposes.

Well I think you are definitely not wrong, it was a very complex time & since we are sort of broadly speaking of "Americans" as one body (not differentiating the various consciousness/awareness levels of situations etc) I was being vague in kind.

A lot of vets started to really question the war effort and joined the protestors, it changed the protests a lot and there was a high level of basically uncensored photography coming back home which really turned the populations attentions to the horrors of war. Originally the protests were due to deaths, but the young people (the main protest participants) really took hold of the brutality and horrors of war and that is what they protested, that is why it was so prevalent (well the uncensored media & the young people coupled with the returning vets).

This is, of course, just my understanding from historical study & some conversations with people who were there; I'm sure there are members here that could expand on this (though if they would be drawn to a thread with this title is questionable)

I had attempted to elude to this earlier in this thread, not with much success I think:

Here's where I think history tells us much, the absolute demoralization that a drawn out warfare brings not to mention when it's a population ordered to turn on itself, if guns do nothing other than that we win. The fighting force that is depraved a quick engagement will start to question its actions & Vietnam like outcomes are bound to exist ( the line was pushed very far at that time, the US tested it's boundaries and was put in it's place HARD by the population... if you read between the historic lines
.

it seems that "we" as a people have grown weary of extended wars and patriotism (nationalism) has lost it's motivating factor; we do not go to war to protect the country really anymore, we go to "war" to protect ourselves from direct threats (Terrorism etc..) This was a fairly obvious shift in government propaganda tactics (and all the supporting false flags etc) & I think Vietnam was just the first lesson for "TPTB" that tactics had to change; instead of a vague national threat it is now a vague personal threat we rally against.

Anyway, a complex situation that is only slightly related to this thread.

donk

9th May 2013, 17:20

Yes. You´re probably right. It´s really hard to escape from such stereotyping. The level of anti-americanism is rapidly growing all over the world. Sadly, most people can´t discern between the American institution and the American people.

I really repudiate the institution, but, as I said before, every single American I´ve ever met in person was really cool and respectful.

I have to say (as an American), you must not have met a lot of Americans. The stereotype is warranted, and everything you say is reinforced by this actual thread. Americans only care about (the story only sells if it's about) guns.

Very few Americans will comment or care about or think twice about the concept of the 3D printer itself, or the multiple various IMPORTANT issues TargeT brought up--do you really think you're representative of "Americans" TargeT...and if so, why are you in the VIs again?

If there is ANY validity in freedom, markets--or the fact that we are not COMPLETELY in an Orwellian nightmare, then the crap that's pushed in the mainstream is representative of "demand" for the information "Americans" want to consume. If this is not true, then we really are in a Brave New 1984.

TargeT

9th May 2013, 18:13

every single American I´ve ever met in person was really cool and respectful.

I have to say (as an American), you must not have met a lot of Americans. The stereotype is warranted, and everything you say is reinforced by this actual thread. Americans only care about (the story only sells if it's about) guns.

Very few Americans will comment or care about or think twice about the concept of the 3D printer itself, or the multiple various IMPORTANT issues TargeT brought up--do you really think you're representative of "Americans" TargeT...and if so, why are you in the VIs again?

If there is ANY validity in freedom, markets--or the fact that we are not COMPLETELY in an Orwellian nightmare, then the crap that's pushed in the mainstream is representative of "demand" for the information "Americans" want to consume. If this is not true, then we really are in a Brave New 1984.

Well, I do think the USA population is over all pretty socially polite and easy going.

How over I agree the bulk of the population is lead by the nose via sensationalism, "authority figures" and does not exercise critical thinking skills often (if ever); I have been surprised enough in the resent past that I find the concept of a "shift" or "change" happening now as viable so I will couch my statement heavily here (People who I thought would never bring up certain topics have & while this maybe just a reflection of my own judgmental-ness I don't think it entirely is).

I also don't see very much "freedom", markets or otherwise, currently; the illusion of choice is not choice & that's what I see a lot of in the US.

I'm not sure if it was intentional or not (I assume it is), but your "brave new 1984" is very accurate (a mix of Huxley’s "Brave New World" and Orwell’s "1984", while they seem to be diametrically opposed models of suppression I can see how mixing concepts from both together seems to be the reality that we function in now).

http://imgur.com/p7Lzl.jpg

I think it's pretty clear why I'm on an isolated island ;)

778 neighbour of some guy

9th May 2013, 19:12

BUMP good thread, i came to the conclusion that neither the 3D printing of guns or flowers will bring peace, distributing free excellent 3d printers that can print organic food and free energy divices is in order, maybe we can print some real hippies back into this world, we need more drumcircles.

RMorgan

9th May 2013, 19:45

Back to the main subject:

On the Thusday, May 9 edition of the Alex Jones Show, 3D printing guru Cody Wilson of Defense Distributed announced that the US Office of Defense Trade Controls Compliance, Enforcement Division (DTCC/END) has sent him a letter requesting the group remove all data from public access immediately.

http://static.infowars.com/2013/05/i/general/tradecompliance3.jpg

read more: http://www.infowars.com/breaking-3d-printable-gun-ordered-to-shut-down-by-government/

Raf.

Cidersomerset

9th May 2013, 20:43

Thanks for your input, TargeT.

Well, I may be wrong, but I think those protests and anti-war movements from the 60s were mostly caused by the huge amount of young American boys who were dying in the Vietnam war, not by the injustice of the war itself. Would such huge civilian rebellion happen if the US was winning the war with just the "regular" level of casualties?

Anyway, I´m a big fan of the 60s, specially the high quality artistic manifestations that were caused by such huge changing energy. I must say the you Americans are one of the most, if not the most, creative people on Earth; It´s just too bad that nowadays most people use such creative energy for bad purposes.

A lot of vets started to really question the war effort and joined the protestors, it changed the protests a lot and there was a high level of basically uncensored photography coming back home which really turned the populations attentions to the horrors of war. Originally the protests were due to deaths, but the young people (the main protest participants) really took hold of the brutality and horrors of war and that is what they protested, that is why it was so prevalent (well the uncensored media & the young people coupled with the returning vets).

Two very good points Targe & Raf ......
After the US got bogged down in Vietnam and the free access to the front to the
press who got the pictures and stories of Drug abuse amongst the troops, massacre
and mistreatment and overall pointless strategic bombing of the north costing
billions of dollars for nothing in return apart from many bodybags and disgruntled
public at home. All to prop up a corrupt regime in the south and the spread of those
nasty commies, to be fair we were all brainwashed in the west to be scared of.

( Sorry the Mil ind complex and other corporations made Trillions in blood money )

During the next major logistical combat zone the retaking of the Falklands, the
press were highly monitored and the term'embeded' was coined which basically
limits the amount of info/pictures coming out of the conflict area. This carried on
to the first Gulf war thru to today.Still some journalists chance their luck and
several have been killed in dubious circustances possibly 'friendly' fire.

donk

9th May 2013, 21:05

So what I am getting at, is what is REALLY at issue here? Control...of some sort, methinks...but of what?

Guns?

3D printers?

The "knowledge" of making guns?

Whatever the issue..."guns", to an American, ranks in the top 5 emotionally charged ideas that tend to make heads explode--somewhere around abortion and sexual preference...

Cidersomerset

9th May 2013, 21:33

Big Bang 3D Printing ....amusing at the end Walowitz contemplates 'lady parts'

tsz9GUZv1IA

=================================================

3D Printing prop Weapons (Grenades now, Guns Later)

wtXPQYbputw

Published on 30 Mar 2013

Having some fun using a 3d printer to make a prop grenade. I've been considering
how to print one of the guns I've seen on DefCAD. My maker gear mosaic only has
a 5 inch cubed build area so I have to finish building the Reprap Pro Mendel I
started.