Tavistock, Hubbard, Dianetics, MKUltra and the CIA?

[music]

With an opening gambit like this:


The year is 1969, and undercover CIA agent Jerry McDonald is working with his compatriot Terry Milner, the Deputy Guardian Intelligence for the US (DGI US), and directly with L. Ron Hubbard as to Operations – Black Operations that is
you know you are in for an interesting read. We are in dis-info territory here, tread carefully, examine the material, embedded links, photos and references and decide for yourself.

Why is this important? Because the techniques developed (stolen, appropriated, depending who you believe) by L Ron Hubbard just may play a key part in the plans of the Tavistock Institute, and those they serve. Could attempts to revalidate Hubbard and his "tech" be part of a plan to target and use psychically gifted individuals, possibly as part of a power play within warring factions of the elite? Could the claims that Scientology was infiltrated by the elite to discredit Hubbard be just a smokescreen to conceal the fact that Hubbard and his "tech" were part and parcel of the Tavistock/CIA/MKUltra scene? Read the entire blog linked to below, and make up your own mind. I provide selected quotes below to give you the flavour. The blog itself is pretty convincing, and has linkages to other concepts and truths many of us have found along the way.

Welcome To The Real Scientology – The Brotherhood (http://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.com/2012/08/11/welcome-to-the-real-scientology-the-brotherhood/)


On the heels of the formation of the WFMH and the new U.S. Tavistock Institute, L. Ron Hubbard is right there promoting a new “cure” for mental ills – a more “humane” treatment that applies to anyone! – that’s not as good as it sounds on the surface. Think about it – that means we are all characterized as mentally impaired!
"to promote among all peoples and nations the highest possible level of mental health in its broadest biological, medical, educational, and social aspects"



The first prong of this “devils fork” of “mental health” research, dealt with trying to get “assessments” of people and how to control them. Along those lines, 1941 – December 20th – Four Anthropologists are brought in (through John Rees British MI6/Tavistock and OSS head General Donavan) to begin assessing the social psychological characteristics of “a people”. (Margaret Mead was one of them.)




The other prong of this devil’s fork of “mental health” research, is rather more strenuous on humanity. The same year as Tavistock’s baby, Dianetics, gets released (in fact, just one month before it) on a Thursday in April 1950, British MI6 ******* child – the CIA – starts up Project BLUEBIRD.


CIA Director Roscoe Hillenkoetter approved BLUEBIRD and authorized the use of unvouchered funds to pay for its most sensitive areas. The CIA’s behavior-control program now had a bureaucratic structure to really focus on in on this “research”. “Unvouchered funds” – what a euphemism!




Per information in an article on scribd called The Real Reason for Security Checks in Scientology – Welcome to the Vault – a case can easily be made that Hubbard further extended this “profile” data gathering for his Case Officer Gottlieb, to include Security Check worksheets. A security check is just what it sounds like. A series of questions given to a person while they are on an e-meter, trying to find out their “secrets” or in Scientology parlance – their withholds.

As you already may know, this was an extremely hot area for the Intelligence Community in those days, Gottlieb (and others) were obsessed with finding ways to “break” foreign agents into revealing their secrets – theoretically to help figure out how it worked so he could protect the CIA’s own agents.




While the CIA is experimenting on effecting mental states with Drugs, so is L. Ron Hubbard. In the earliest days of Dianetics Hubbard quite freely dispensed strange drugs to be taken during “auditing”.

Literally right on top of OSS/CIA sponsored doctors Rinkel and Hyde’s release of their study on LSD for creating mental illness, Hubbard releases the Book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, and less than two months later, he begins doing the exact same type of CIA research through the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation, formed in May of 1950.




In his lectures from that time period, L. Ron Hubbard talks about him using drugs and hypnotism in his research into the mind.

In the lecture Case Factors 15 June 1950, he says he has used nitrous oxide, phenobarbital, and Benzedrine.

In the lecture Institutional Cases 23 June 1950 he talks about administering sodium amytal, sodium pentothal, and many other drugs.

These are not exactly over the counter drugs, especially sodium pentothal in particular. That drug was restricted to CIA/OSS studies in psychiatric hospitals. A rhetorical question then surfaces, WHERE IS HE GETTING THESE DRUGS FROM? The answer is obvious – CIA doctors.

In August and September of 1950, Hubbard was experimenting with what he called GUK, a cocktail of benzedrine, vitamins and glutamic acid. He named it after the rifle cleaning fluid used by the US Marine Corps, which he believed would provide a chemical alternative to auditing.

That, is also exactly like what the CIA is doing with LSD at Boston Psychopathic at the same time here. They are saying they are “seeing” if it will “cure insanity”!




Later on, in his book, Science of Survival (1951), L. Ron Hubbard reveals his first-hand knowledge of the techniques of pain-drug-hypnosis.

“This form of hypnotism has been a carefully guarded secret of certain military and intelligence organizations. It is a vicious war weapon and may be of more use in conquering a society than the atom bomb. Pain-drug-hypnosis is a wicked extension of narco-synthesis, the drug hypnosis used in America only during and since the last war. But pain-drug-hypnosis, due mainly to the intent of the operator, is a much more vicious procedure. The Foundation undertook some tests with regard to the effectiveness of pain-drug-hypnosis and found it so appallingly destructive to the personality… Pain-drug-hypnosis is so effectively destructive that the Foundation hasceased experimentation along this line, having already learned enough and refusing to endanger the sanity of individuals. “




It is important to understand, that The CIA and military primarily used civilians to do discreditable research, which gives the government maximum deniability for atrocious actions taken by these researchers. In fact, most of the really bad experimentation was funded and overseen through cut-out organizations such as the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology, and other organizations. This practice of utilizing private organizations has continued right on up through today. The mercenary firm Blackwater (now Academi), the British firm BAE, the “teaching and security” company of Mitchell, Jessen & associations were all utilized in the deliberate violation of human rights of prisoners at Guantanamo


If you think this sounds interesting, read the blog, which has many, many links, photos and references, and decide for yourself where the truth may lie.

[Bryston]

Perfect

21469

[Bill Ryan]

-------

As I wrote in another thread...

1) Read this interview transcript:

http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html

2) Listen to this BBC radio documentary.

http://projectcamelot.org/Ruthless_Adventure_the_lives_of_L_Ron_Hubbard.mp3

3) If you have time and care to dig some more, read Peter Moon's excellent autobiographical book (although the title is misleading and dreadful!)

http://amazon.com/Montauk-Book-Dead-Peter-Moon/dp/0967816238

Peter Moon, the author of the Montauk series of books, personally worked alongside Hubbard for many years. Highly recommended as a well-written, balanced and intelligent account.

You can find material on the internet to trash anyone you care to. That includes me, David Icke, Jordan Maxwell, Nikola Tesla, Jesus Christ, even (horror of horrors!) Projects Avalon and Camelot, and every one of their witnesses.

The opportunity here is to ask questions, not claim you have all the answers. I'm here, and I know what I'm talking about on this subject. There's only a finite number of subjects about which I lay that claim. :)

Again, though it's very well-disguised with your articulate reasonableness, you come over as angry and vindictive, with a point to make or a score to settle. Why?

[Bryston]

Hello Bill


-------

You can find material on the internet to trash anyone you care to. That includes me, David Icke, Jordan Maxwell, Nikola Tesla, Jesus Christ, even (horror of horrors!) Projects Avalon and Camelot, and every one of their witnesses.

Agreed, I found music's info interesting though. Admittedly my posting of the Bare Faced messiah cover didn't do much to contribute creatively, but to express an opinion I have of Mr L Ron Hubbard. So not very productive I'll agree. From what information I have managed to digest he just strikes me as a manipulator.


The opportunity here is to ask questions, not claim you have all the answers. I'm here, and I know what I'm talking about on this subject. There's only a finite number of subjects about which I lay that claim. :)

Can I take this opportunity, and ask you two questions that are not so much connected to the issue here.?

1) I've watched a lot on the Montauk program over the years. Could you provide a description of this story as you understand it? Cause I'm just lost.

2) The Jordan Maxwell, and Michael Tsarion research is something I find very interesting. Again, what is your take on it, specifically on how this infomation effects your own understanding of humanities relationship to their own control structures, and in what potential forms humanities symbolism could take in light of this research?

Cheers

[music]

Bill, this reply, slightly amended from another thread needs to go here as well.

The use of the term psy-op [in another thread] was ill-advised, and I apologise for that. Context-wise, this is illustrating appearances - this is how the playing out of the coming of jiminii is being perceived by many observers, myself included. Psy-ops, as far as I am concerned also, are not limited to intelligence gathering communities, or NWO agenda driven concerns - they may also be employed by people furthering their own less inclusive ends or goals. The use of the term is cautionary, but yes, ill-advised due to the emotionally-charged nature of it, and I apologise to all for this.

According to Dane Tops, CIA interest in Scientology was instigated to discredit Hubbard and his tech. Utilising, among other things, but to cite the example I have most trouble with, 5-7 year old CIA/MKUltra trained psychically gifted children to fundamentally isolate Hubbard and imprison him on his boat, and then to take over the org as they came of age. Meanwhile, other claims are that Hubbard himself was involved with the Tavistock Institute US branch (under control of Tavistock UK), CIA and MKUltra right from the word go, and that he resigned his commision in the US Navy to carry out his mind-control experiements at a distance from government to minimise state culpability.

The first claim has no empirical evidence that satifies me, the second claim is loaded with empirical and other evidence. Still, when I posted just one among the many sources for this claim, I put a caveat at the start:


We are in dis-info territory here, tread carefully, examine the material, embedded links, photos and references and decide for yourself

Both claim CIA involvement, so on what do we base our credence of either? Close involement with the org (in any of its forms), if the second claim is correct, might warrant caution given what we know of MKUltra.

And as is the circular nature of things, we are back to where we were a few days ago Bill, having to agree to disagree, but as always, I will allow for the fact that I may wrong.

Love and blessings.

[Bryston]

Oh Well


Never Mind

[InCiDeR]

Here is a video regarding this subject:

NOTE: This video contains information that many viewers will find extremely disturbing, involving the ritual abuse of children.

Scientology, the CIA, and MIVILUDES: Cults of Abuse
KOQzmtU1SjM

This video also reveals the close friendship between Hubbard and John Whiteside Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whiteside_Parsons), a self-proclaimed satanist that called himself "Anti-Christ". They lived together for a while and both were friends to Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley), also known as both Frater Perdurabo and The Great Beast 666. In this video Hubbard admits their friendship in a voice recording.

[Bill Ryan]

Hello Bill


-------

You can find material on the internet to trash anyone you care to. That includes me, David Icke, Jordan Maxwell, Nikola Tesla, Jesus Christ, even (horror of horrors!) Projects Avalon and Camelot, and every one of their witnesses.

Agreed, I found music's info interesting though. Admittedly my posting of the Bare Faced messiah cover didn't do much to contribute creatively, but to express an opinion I have of Mr L Ron Hubbard. So not very productive I'll agree. From what information I have managed to digest he just strikes me as a manipulator.


The opportunity here is to ask questions, not claim you have all the answers. I'm here, and I know what I'm talking about on this subject. There's only a finite number of subjects about which I lay that claim. :)

Can I take this opportunity, and ask you two questions that are not so much connected to the issue here.?

1) I've watched a lot on the Montauk program over the years. Could you provide a description of this story as you understand it? Cause I'm just lost.

2) The Jordan Maxwell, and Michael Tsarion research is something I find very interesting. Again, what is your take on it, specifically on how this infomation effects your own understanding of humanities relationship to their own control structures, and in what potential forms humanities symbolism could take in light of this research?

Cheers

1) The Montauk story is complex. The best account of it is in our original (first) interview with David Wilcock back in 2007. The easiest thing is to copy from the transcript (http://projectcamelot.org/lang/en/david_wilcock_interview_transcript_2_en.html):






So getting back to this Daniel situation, I had the opportunity to meet this guy. I had flown to New York. I'd gotten off the plane. I was going to visit my mother. It was winter time and we didn't have transportation to get me down. It was like there was a storm. There was ice all over the roads, so I had to stay in a hotel that night. I needed to eat something so I got in the taxi and I went to the Denny's; and it just so happened before I left that this book had gotten my attention again, The Montauk Project.

Now I read this book in the 90's before I ever found the Law of one, and I thought it was completely horse pucky, I just had no interest in it. But I just said let me bring it along as reading material, so I had it with me.

I'm in this Denny's late at night and this guy walks past and he kind of looks like a Harley guy, like a biker, you know in his leather jacket kind of thing and he says, " what you think about that Montauk Project?" I said: "Oh, it's ridiculous. This is a joke. I'm just reading this for entertainment". He said: "Could I talk to you about something?" "Okay".

So he sits down and he says, I worked at Montauk. I literally laughed in his face. I said, "You've got to be kidding me."

To make along story short, he gives me this enormous download. I'm scribbling stuff on the back of a napkin and the back of the place thing that they give you at Denny's and we made a contact and I've had numerous opportunities to connect with him since that time.

I can't get into a lot of detail. He does not want to come forward; he is terrified of publicity. He has been willing to do some audio work so he can get his testimony recorded on audio, but I'm going to have to garble his voice.

So, here's the deal. Now, first of all, let's not forget. If even one UFO sighting is real, meaning not swamp gas, then we're not alone and there are UFOs. As soon as you accept that, you have to also accept the fact that they can materialize and de-materialize. So they are winking in and out of our reality somehow. Well, how would they do that?

Apparently, the answer is in the seat. You have a seat in the UFO and it plugs into your mind and you think, "I want to go to a particular place." You visualize where that place is. This vortex opens up in front of your ship. Your ship flies through the vortex. The vortex closes behind you and you end up going where you need to go.

So what happens if a disc crashes, and our government guys pops a seat out of the UFO and start tinkering with it? And then what happens if they get health problems?

A particular group of extra terrestrials from Sirius, apparently, and the ETs are telling them, "design this coil and build it this way and built a big octahedron, like two Egyptian pyramids top to bottom, and that's your main antenna."

So, to make a long story short, it took a number of years, but there was a series of progressive steps that led to the ability to bring this chair on line, so that it was fully functional in its intended purpose. The chair had, this is all stuff... now Daniel got hired in at this job. He was an Air Force captain, and he was given a sentry position at this place, kind of like a guard; but he also had a variety of tasks that were to be performed. He did not know what was going on.

So what happened in the early days was, he was in the cafeteria, eating his lunch or whatever, and you'd see over in the corner of the room that it would start to burble like a mirage, and you would see something that shouldn't be there. Like you might see through the wall into the other room, or you might see a field with green grass or something, and sometimes it would be up near the ceiling and sometimes it would be in the floor.

So it turns out that everybody talked to the janitor. The janitor had somehow gained everybody's confidence, so they started having these meetings with the janitor. The janitor started telling them what was going on.

Now gradually over time, he apparently was indoctrinated and got fully knowledgeable about what was going on. This was an abandoned military base at the far out point of Long Island called Montauk.

He did say that the first book in the Montauk Project series was authentic, and that pretty much everything in the book is true. He then went on to say that every book since then has been increasingly distorted and not truthful.

He knew Al Bielek. He knew Preston Nichols. He knew Duncan Cameron. He knew Stuart Swerdlow, all these guys were there.

Duncan ran the chair the best, Duncan was the guy that could run the chair. He had some experience working with the chair. He said that they originally tried to build one reverse engineered and that didn't work. They eventually had to go back to the original design, use the actual real chair, not one that had been rebuilt. There was something about these Helmholtz coils that had to be altered.

So, basically what happens is, you are in the chair. There are 22, I think he said 22, wavelengths that the chair creates that are like your mind waves, your brain waves, and from these 22 wave lengths, all other waves come from your mind.

So when you sit in the chair, they would have you go into what they call the quiet point, and this is a point where your mind is perfectly still.

Now normally if you go in the chair if your mind isn't quiet, the waves are going to be fluctuating all the time. If you go quiet, then the waves will sort of stop and go to a fixed point, like this. (gesticulates) Well, out of the 22, if you have a wave that looks like this, the idea is to get it to go flat. They would zero out the chair, 22 knobs, 22 waves and flatten out all the graphs. Duncan Cameron, apparently, was the only person who could get everything perfectly zeroed out, perfectly stable.

There was an extremely, extremely, enormous power supply that was required to run this chair. It was a non-standard frequency. It was not alternating current, 120 hertz; it was some weird decimal point number of hertz that they had to run through the chair.

But what would happen is that consciousness would create matter.

They found that you could think about an object, like let's say you thought about a particular wooden chair and you visualize the chair, the chair would start forming in the room. First maybe very shimmery and sort of like you couldn't even see it and it would harden up. Depending on how much thought energy you would put into it, it would stay solid for a period of time and then it would dissipate and sort of disappear back into the background.

Then they started to find out that if you thought about a particular place that there would be an opening that would appear and you would go to that place. You could send somebody through it and then they could walk around in there for awhile and other people could see them. It was like they were there and then you would have to have the person in the chair physically pull them out with conscious intent to get them back out.

Now they did do a lot of experimentation. They sent innocent people through, and they were killed. Some of these were street tramps; some of these were homeless kids.

Apparently, Swerdlow was responsible for recruiting a lot of the kids.

I believe it's possible people can change; Daniel doesn't. He talked about Al Bielek He said Bielek was a big story teller, always had some funny thing going on.

Daniel claims he, himself, never went through the vortex.

At some point they realized that they had gone to a place that was not the present, that they had traveled through time. They got very excited about this.

Now this is where it gets really strange. It just gets stranger and stranger.

Supposedly, we have a body that they call the transient body, and then we have a physical body. The transient body is what new-agers would call the astral body. At the point that you're first conceived, it's called your zero time reference (ZTR), that moment is where you have contact with this place called zero time.

Now the physics model goes like this. If you can imagine space/time like a sheet, everything above the sheet is the world that we inhabit, the reality that we inhabit. Everything below the sheet is this three dimensional reality that's kind of like where anti-matter is.

It's like the astral plane, a mirror image of where we are now. As you accelerate though space you start curving space ,and eventually it curves around in on itself like a donut and that's a torus, it's called a torus. If you keep on going, the torus unrolls.

Now because of what I've told you with this sheet thing, you got time in here, space in here. (Time below the sheet, space above) Time is three-dimensional down there, Space is three dimensional up here. As the sheet curls in you get time on the inside of the donut, but then as you keep going, the donut unrolls in the other direction and the time that was down here unrolls and becomes your space.

So you're now in a three-dimensional world, you can walk around in, you can inhabit, but it's out of phase with our reality and people in this reality wouldn't see you, you'd disappear.

So this is apparently what was done inadvertently with the Philadelphia Experiment. The Philadelphia Experiment started with tests that were done on very, very high intensity welding, arc welding of navel vessels, and they had these enormous pieces of steel that they are welding together. They blast it with electrical energy at a very high frequency and they started to notice the tools would disappear after this. They couldn't find them.

They finally filmed it and they found that when they blasted this arc welding thing, that there would be this big black hole that would appear in the room, and they discovered that, in fact, it was de-materializing objects and that they wouldn't come back.

So this is what led them to do increasing amounts of research, discovering that electrical energy is one way that you can pop this hole between space/time and time/space, and get through to this realm down here.

Well, they tried to send a ship of sailors through. and unfortunately there was an inconsistency in the hull. The ship's hull was kind of used as an antenna to allow this energy to form around the ship properly. They put coils on the ship and there were coils off shore. The ship, apparently, got caught up in this energy flow. It manifested up in Philadelphia, hence the Philadelphia Experiment, (it was originally the Norfolk Naval Shipyard) and then it popped back to the shipyard.

Some of the sailors were actually imbedded in the hull. Some of them burst into flames, some of them would appear and disappear because they were here, but if you get energetically tuned to this, then you can flip-flop between the two halves of the torus, so to speak, and the matter in their bodies would do that.

So, in the 1920's, Tesla built something that would stabilize your ZTR. It's called a Zero Time Reference, and let me explain what that means.

Here is space/time, here is time/space, and in the middle is zero time. You're not in space, you're not in time. When you go there apparently it looks kind of gray.

In zero time we all have a point at which we were conceived, where the transient body or the spiritual body, and the physical body join. As we get older there is like a widening cone between the physical and the metaphysical self. That forms your biological age.

If you mess with the ZTR, it's like you push the top over, but the bottom is still where it is, this gap creates great static which in some cases causes you to burst into flames and other cases causes you to go comatose. Sometimes your sense of time gets really screwed up.

For example, with some of these guys you'd have to rub their skin for days at a time, the exposed flesh, they would just be... paused, because in their time only a few seconds have gone by in what amounts to years of time for us, or maybe weeks of time. So by rubbing them, you could eventually get them to slow down and rejoin their time reference with where we are.

Now one of the things Daniel told me was that some people were able to psychically reconstruct the ship from memory. They remembered that they were on a ship. They remembered where the ship was, where the floor was, where the walls were. They were the ones who came out okay.

So that was part of the research. Now since that time, the Philadelphia Experiment was not dropped, it has since been parlayed into technologies, including jump-gate technology, as I have heard it has been called, in which they now can warp you from one place to another.

There is apparently, as you guys disclosed with [Henry] Deacon, a stable jump gate between Earth and Mars... an inhabited base on Mars, I heard that too. Daniel also came across the fact that Mars had been inhabited in ancient history, and that there were artifacts all over the place. He also said he saw a photograph of astronauts waving next to a pyramid, in basic NASA spacesuits.

So it's not easy when people realize that you have been lied to, and that there is a lot you don't know, but that it's the reality of what's happened.

So they got a chair from the UFO and they started using these same principles, and took it further.

Now, one guy was actually crazy enough to go back in time, and he killed his father, because he wanted to see what would happen, I guess. You know, there are some nasty guys working in Black Ops and it was also a suicide move, you would think.

Well, he felt great. I mean, he went and he killed his father, which apparently resolved a lot of anger issues for him, and he came back, "I'm fine, everything's fine." The next day, or a couple of days later, he stepped out in traffic, got hit by a car and was instantly killed.

So from that they came to the conclusion that time is like a living fabric that repairs the tears that are made; repairs the rips that are made as much as it can.

The most interesting thing that Daniel ever told me was, of course, well, first of all before we get to that, your ZTR determines your absolute biological age. So apparently, if you travel into the future and your ZTR says that you were born in 1956, let's say, You travel into the future ten years, fifteen years down the road, in a matter of a couple of hours, your body becomes ten or fifteen years older. When you travel back in time, you revert back to the age you were when you left, in a relatively short period of time.

Now, this is very anomalous, and suggests a very multi-dimensional component to the biological aging. So they had to find a way to shift the ZTR in order to send somebody through, and Daniel believes they had, but he did not have access to that information.

They were taking wavelengths of the psychic's mind, analyzing them and trying to figure out a way to mechanically generate them, so that they wouldn't need the psychic. They were using a variety of psychics, but Duncan Cameron happened to be the one who had the most success.

So they sent people through time, there was a twenty-year wave that came out which apparently was a natural harmonic of the Earth in its rotation, and you could plot on the wave very precisely what time somebody was in by how far the wave went. If the wave went to here and then stopped, they could calculate, ok, that's 1996, January 15th, or whatever.

The wave keeps going, and this is what really drove these guys crazy; is that there was a certain point, (they were sending people into the future) there was a certain point on that twenty-year wave as they're traveling along through a time tunnel, at which all the waves, a hundred-some plus waves from the chair, and that was just the number that they had analyzed, there were hundreds more that they weren't even looking at; the
amount of cables coming out of the chair was in this two inch by three inch box coming out, a huge amount of data.


2) Another vast subject (even larger!). Summary: I have a great deal of respect for Maxwell's and Tsarion's work to talk about and try to explain the importance of symbology. There's no doubt in my mind that the global elite attach a great deal of significance to symbology as meaningful and intentional artifacts in reality -- far more than just neat metaphorical ideas. Some symbols appear to have a function. That's about all I can say... I am very far from being an expert in that field.

[Praxis]

I also want to add to Bill's post in regards to the second question: I think that Tsarion is onto something very deep when talking about vampirism, specifically pyschic or energetic vampirism. Ithink that a lot part of our control structure is based on feeding this and straight up vampirism ( like eating people or parts of them: have you ever looked into how many children go missing in a year? http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/archive/documents/Statistics.pdf) The interesting part to me there is the DOJ numbers. They have numbers that reconcile about 250 000 of them but not the rest. Where did the rest go? I would be willing to say that half of the remainin where runaways, but that still leaves a bunch un accounted for. THis is also just the uS where tracking is relatively good. THink about other places.

[InCiDeR]

Here is a video regarding this subject:

NOTE: This video contains information that many viewers will find extremely disturbing, involving the ritual abuse of children.

Scientology, the CIA, and MIVILUDES: Cults of Abuse
Scientology

This video also reveals the close friendship between Hubbard and John Whiteside Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whiteside_Parsons), a self-proclaimed satanist that called himself "Anti-Christ". They lived together for a while and both were friends to Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley), also known as both Frater Perdurabo and The Great Beast 666. In this video Hubbard admits their friendship in a voice recording.

WOW.... isn't this VERY interesting? The video is taken down within a few hours from my previous post. And this is a video that been up quite some time before my post!!!

hmmmm...

[InCiDeR]

Luckily enough I found another upload:

AWrHeaxC-1s


... and I took down a copy to my hard drive just in case...


EDIT: Say cheese to those reading this thread... ;)

[Bryston]

Thanks for the Download Bill

Much appreciated, got a workable frame of reference now as as to the Montauk Project. Hours of Bielek left me with nothing to grasp onto.

Agreed on the Tsarion, and Maxwell, its vast a potentially very wide scoping. Their work, I feel, is a slowly exploding culture bomb of sorts. Capable of re-writing the understanding process itself. Maybe this still has to gestate within the mass mind for people to benefit from its perspective.

Anyway thanks again much appreciated.

[onawah]

Some tend to discount everything that David Wilcock has to say because, obviously, he has not always been right, but that explanation of Montauk is pretty definitive.

[music]

-------


Again, though it's very well-disguised with your articulate reasonableness, you come over as angry and vindictive, with a point to make or a score to settle. Why?

While there is nothing in my OP that justifies this remark from you, it could function as a useful mirror for you, Bill. I (and others) have noticed that while many made attacking and challenging comments to jiminii, even going so far as saying he is insane, I was the only one given censure by the mod team, and subjected to your personal attack and innuendo. It's no biggie to me Bill, people's words and deeds have no power over me, but you might be interested to read my debrief on recent events:



Debrief – how did I invite psychic attack? (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59222-To-the-person-psychically-attacking-me&p=676235#post676235)

The episode is over for me, and as in all things, I will give myself a “debrief” so I learn all I can.

The two incidents occurred when I was heavily energetically involved with an issue on this forum. I will state quite clearly that this doesn’t mean that anyone involved in this issue was to blame for the attacks. They have happened here before, and usually at times when emotions have been running high. Others here felt recent attacks at the same time as I did, and anyone who did, please comment on my thoughts.

Attachment to outcome is just that – attachment. Recall earlier that when recounting my remote viewing of a future event for a friend, I followed her energy trail from me to her, and her energy trail to her sister-in-law. My attachment to events here left an energy trail to me, and because I wasn’t operating solely from my higher self, I became vulnerable to attack. In the incident with my friend, I operated purely, was able to foresee the death of her beloved sister-in-law, and prepare her for it before it occurred (obviously I didn’t write and say “she’s going to die”, I prepared my friend without her knowing she was being prepared). There was no fallout from this, yet I had left energy trails everywhere.

The difference lies in the intent of the energy. In the second instance, my intent was pure and unmuddied. In the first (most recent) instance, while my intent was pure (as far as I can tell), it was muddied by ego and attachment to outcome. Those who saw my activity on the matter in question will have noticed the occasions when my comments were informed by attachment to outcome, and engagement of emotion/ego. It is a fine line – I will sometimes be driven by spirit to say or do things that appear harsh, because this is what is needed at the time for the best possible outcome, but what I need to do is to be able to better identify these times from the times I am being driven by attachment to outcome, as this allows ego and emotion to inform my words and deeds.

[ThePythonicCow]

WOW.... isn't this VERY interesting? The video is taken down within a few hours from my previous post. And this is a video that been up quite some time before my post!!!

hmmmm...

The video was not taken down. The link posted here for the video was incorrect. I fixed the link in your Post #7 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59257-Tavistock-Hubbard-Dianetics-MKUltra-and-the-CIA&p=676102&viewfull=1#post676102) above.

The incorrect link may well not have been your fault. Our forum software looks for the 11 character Youtube ID code in the link, and this time it picked off the 11 character long word "Scientology" as the Youtube ID. That is 11 characters alright ... just not the right 11 characters :).

[RunningDeer]

Here is a video regarding this subject:

NOTE: This video contains information that many viewers will find extremely disturbing, involving the ritual abuse of children.

Scientology, the CIA, and MIVILUDES: Cults of Abuse
Scientology

This video also reveals the close friendship between Hubbard and John Whiteside Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whiteside_Parsons), a self-proclaimed satanist that called himself "Anti-Christ". They lived together for a while and both were friends to Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley), also known as both Frater Perdurabo and The Great Beast 666. In this video Hubbard admits their friendship in a voice recording.

WOW.... isn't this VERY interesting? The video is taken down within a few hours from my previous post. And this is a video that been up quite some time before my post!!!

hmmmm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOQzmtU1SjM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scientology

Hello InCiDer,
The reason why the second video is not working is the embedded address was changed for reasons I don't know. The letters at the end are spelled out "Scientology". That's not YouTube web language. The first one has the letters at the end "KOQzmtU1SjM". Therefore the video is still avaliable from where you originally posted.


KOQzmtU1SjM

¤=[Post Update]=¤




WOW.... isn't this VERY interesting? The video is taken down within a few hours from my previous post. And this is a video that been up quite some time before my post!!!

hmmmm...

The video was not taken down. The link posted here for the video was incorrect. I fixed the link in your Post #7 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59257-Tavistock-Hubbard-Dianetics-MKUltra-and-the-CIA&p=676102&viewfull=1#post676102) above.

The incorrect link may well not have been your fault. Our forum software looks for the 11 character Youtube ID code in the link, and this time it picked off the 11 character long word "Scientology" as the Youtube ID. That is 11 characters alright ... just not the right 11 characters :).

I'm going in order of the posts. I just saw this, Paul. Feel free to delete mine.

[InCiDeR]

WOW.... isn't this VERY interesting? The video is taken down within a few hours from my previous post. And this is a video that been up quite some time before my post!!!

hmmmm...

The video was not taken down. The link posted here for the video was incorrect. I fixed the link in your Post #7 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59257-Tavistock-Hubbard-Dianetics-MKUltra-and-the-CIA&p=676102&viewfull=1#post676102) above.

The incorrect link may well not have been your fault. Our forum software looks for the 11 character Youtube ID code in the link, and this time it picked off the 11 character long word "Scientology" as the Youtube ID. That is 11 characters alright ... just not the right 11 characters :).

Thank you Paul for your help, even though it doesn't explain what happened.

I ALWAYS test my videos after I have made a post, and it DID work perfectly fine.

The second video I posted is not the same as the one I posted first. The second one had just two viewers when I posted that link, the first one had several hundreds.

And why would a youtube link have "scientology" in its link-address and not the ususal mix of letters and numbers? I am maybe not so smart, but I am not so dumb either, I would have noticed if that was the case.

I can't explain what happened, maybe I hit the edit button in my sleep, but it is strange indeed.

Anyhow, thank you for fixing that link!


EDIT: It could also mean that I am under MKUltra control. MY subconscious didn't want me to post the video ;)

[jiminii]

WOW.... isn't this VERY interesting? The video is taken down within a few hours from my previous post. And this is a video that been up quite some time before my post!!!

hmmmm...

The video was not taken down. The link posted here for the video was incorrect. I fixed the link in your Post #7 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59257-Tavistock-Hubbard-Dianetics-MKUltra-and-the-CIA&p=676102&viewfull=1#post676102) above.

The incorrect link may well not have been your fault. Our forum software looks for the 11 character Youtube ID code in the link, and this time it picked off the 11 character long word "Scientology" as the Youtube ID. That is 11 characters alright ... just not the right 11 characters :).

Thank you Paul for your help, even though it doesn't explain what happened.

I ALWAYS test my videos after I have made a post, and it DID work perfectly fine.

The second video I posted is not the same as the one I posted first. The second one had just two viewers when I posted that link, the first one had several hundreds.

And why would a youtube link have "scientology" in its link-adress and not the ususal mix of letters and numbers? I am maybe not so smart, but I am not so dumb either, I would have noticed if that was the case.

I can't explain what happened, maybe I hit the edit button in my sleep, but it is strange indeed.

Anyhow, thank you for fixing that link!

here is the link of the history of LRH from free zone and yes he did know crowley and parsons but for different reason

http://www.freezone.de/english/timetrack/1940ies_earlier.html#Family Roots

jim

[InCiDeR]

(...)

here is the link of the history of LRH from free zone and yes he did know crowley and parsons but for different reason

http://www.freezone.de/english/timetrack/1940ies_earlier.html#Family Roots

jim


Thank you Jim. Would you also be so kind to explain for me what reason Hubbard had then?

Personally, anyone that are close friend to people who name themselves "Anti-Christ" respective "The Great Beast 666", and also according to his own son say that he IS Satan.

Such a person is a BIG RED flag for me:


The Satanic Elements of Scientology (http://www.factnet.org/satanic-elements-scientology)
(A long article, but worth it!)


[From an interview with L Ron Hubbard Jr.](...) "Scientology is black magic that is spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or at most; a few weeks. But in Scientology it is stretched out over a lifetime and so you don't see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology - and it is probably the only part of Scientology that really works.

"Also you've got to realize that my father did not worship Satan. He thought he was Satan. He was one with Satan. He had a direct pipeline of communication and power with him. My father wouldn't have worshipped anything, I mean. When you think you're the most powerful being in the universe, you have no respect for anything let alone worship.(...)



// John Whiteside Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whiteside_Parsons), a self-proclaimed satanist that called himself "Anti-Christ". They lived together for a while and both were friends to Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley), also known as both Frater Perdurabo and The Great Beast 666. //

[jiminii]

(...)

here is the link of the history of LRH from free zone and yes he did know crowley and parsons but for different reason

http://www.freezone.de/english/timetrack/1940ies_earlier.html#Family Roots

jim


Thank you Jim. Would you also be so kind to explain for me what reason Hubbard had then?

Personally, anyone that are close friend to people who name themselves "Anti-Christ" respective "The Great Beast 666", and also according to his own son say that he IS Satan.

Such a person is a BIG RED flag for me:


The Satanic Elements of Scientology (http://www.factnet.org/satanic-elements-scientology)
(A long article, but worth it!)


[From an interview with L Ron Hubbard Jr.](...) "Scientology is black magic that is spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or at most; a few weeks. But in Scientology it is stretched out over a lifetime and so you don't see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology - and it is probably the only part of Scientology that really works.

"Also you've got to realize that my father did not worship Satan. He thought he was Satan. He was one with Satan. He had a direct pipeline of communication and power with him. My father wouldn't have worshipped anything, I mean. When you think you're the most powerful being in the universe, you have no respect for anything let alone worship.(...)



// John Whiteside Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whiteside_Parsons), a self-proclaimed satanist that called himself "Anti-Christ". They lived together for a while and both were friends to Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley), also known as both Frater Perdurabo and The Great Beast 666. //

The answer to the riddle fell into my lap when at an auditor´s convention in 1996, I met a solo auditor who was also a druid. This puzzled me. How would a druid be a solo auditor on Solo 3 or vice versa?
He told me that druids consider themselves to be the keepers of spirituality in Europe. They keep a low profile since the Catholic Church to this day is up in arms against them. Druids are interested in any new development to find out what it´s worth, and perhaps to influence it.

Hubbard´s teachings are of particular importance to them. Because Hubbard (he said) was by education a druid. He was entrusted with the task of making druidic knowledge available to mankind in popular language.

How would my druid friend know this? Because his teacher told him. So I rang the teacher on the phone (a very long-distance call). He confirmed the story and said he had been told it by his teacher who as a child and a young man knew Hubbard personally, at a time when Hubbard was already in his fifties and sailing the Mediterranean in his Sea Org ships.
I asked him if Ron hadn´t told this young man some tall story to impress him, because (don´t we know?) Ron loved to create his PR image to suit the demands of his environment.
No, said the druid teacher, the story was again confirmed by his teacher´s teacher who studied druidism right at the time when Hubbard studied it - in the 1930´s. They didn´t study in the same place but knew of each other.

So for better or worse, here is the full story as it was given to me: Ron, born into a clan of magicians and witches, received a druid education from late childhood on. It lasted some 15 years. He was entrusted with the task of rendering Crowley powerless since Crowley was into black magic, and black magic is not what druids favour. Further, and as his masterpiece, he was to rehabilitate druidic knowledge in the eyes of the world.

Ron was excluded from druidic circles when he founded the "Church of Scientology" in 1954 since it´s against druidic policy to start a religion. (L.Kin, Volume 4, From

[InCiDeR]

(...)

here is the link of the history of LRH from free zone and yes he did know crowley and parsons but for different reason

http://www.freezone.de/english/timetrack/1940ies_earlier.html#Family Roots

jim


Thank you Jim. Would you also be so kind to explain for me what reason Hubbard had then?

Personally, anyone that are close friend to people who name themselves "Anti-Christ" respective "The Great Beast 666", and also according to his own son say that he IS Satan.

Such a person is a BIG RED flag for me:


The Satanic Elements of Scientology (http://www.factnet.org/satanic-elements-scientology)
(A long article, but worth it!)


[From an interview with L Ron Hubbard Jr.](...) "Scientology is black magic that is spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or at most; a few weeks. But in Scientology it is stretched out over a lifetime and so you don't see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology - and it is probably the only part of Scientology that really works.

"Also you've got to realize that my father did not worship Satan. He thought he was Satan. He was one with Satan. He had a direct pipeline of communication and power with him. My father wouldn't have worshipped anything, I mean. When you think you're the most powerful being in the universe, you have no respect for anything let alone worship.(...)



// John Whiteside Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whiteside_Parsons), a self-proclaimed satanist that called himself "Anti-Christ". They lived together for a while and both were friends to Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley), also known as both Frater Perdurabo and The Great Beast 666. //

The answer to the riddle fell into my lap when at an auditor´s convention in 1996, I met a solo auditor who was also a druid. This puzzled me. How would a druid be a solo auditor on Solo 3 or vice versa?
He told me that druids consider themselves to be the keepers of spirituality in Europe. They keep a low profile since the Catholic Church to this day is up in arms against them. Druids are interested in any new development to find out what it´s worth, and perhaps to influence it.

Hubbard´s teachings are of particular importance to them. Because Hubbard (he said) was by education a druid. He was entrusted with the task of making druidic knowledge available to mankind in popular language.

How would my druid friend know this? Because his teacher told him. So I rang the teacher on the phone (a very long-distance call). He confirmed the story and said he had been told it by his teacher who as a child and a young man knew Hubbard personally, at a time when Hubbard was already in his fifties and sailing the Mediterranean in his Sea Org ships.
I asked him if Ron hadn´t told this young man some tall story to impress him, because (don´t we know?) Ron loved to create his PR image to suit the demands of his environment.
No, said the druid teacher, the story was again confirmed by his teacher´s teacher who studied druidism right at the time when Hubbard studied it - in the 1930´s. They didn´t study in the same place but knew of each other.

So for better or worse, here is the full story as it was given to me: Ron, born into a clan of magicians and witches, received a druid education from late childhood on. It lasted some 15 years. He was entrusted with the task of rendering Crowley powerless since Crowley was into black magic, and black magic is not what druids favour. Further, and as his masterpiece, he was to rehabilitate druidic knowledge in the eyes of the world.

Ron was excluded from druidic circles when he founded the "Church of Scientology" in 1954 since it´s against druidic policy to start a religion. (L.Kin, Volume 4, From

Thank you for that Jim. Quite astonishing improvement you have made in a short period of time with your grammar and sentences, both in clarity of your message and how it is presented. If I didn't know better I would have believed it was two different persons that posted this reply here compared to that person posting in all Hubbards threads.

[jiminii]

(...)

here is the link of the history of LRH from free zone and yes he did know crowley and parsons but for different reason

http://www.freezone.de/english/timetrack/1940ies_earlier.html#Family Roots

jim


Thank you Jim. Would you also be so kind to explain for me what reason Hubbard had then?

Personally, anyone that are close friend to people who name themselves "Anti-Christ" respective "The Great Beast 666", and also according to his own son say that he IS Satan.

Such a person is a BIG RED flag for me:


The Satanic Elements of Scientology (http://www.factnet.org/satanic-elements-scientology)
(A long article, but worth it!)


[From an interview with L Ron Hubbard Jr.](...) "Scientology is black magic that is spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or at most; a few weeks. But in Scientology it is stretched out over a lifetime and so you don't see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology - and it is probably the only part of Scientology that really works.

"Also you've got to realize that my father did not worship Satan. He thought he was Satan. He was one with Satan. He had a direct pipeline of communication and power with him. My father wouldn't have worshipped anything, I mean. When you think you're the most powerful being in the universe, you have no respect for anything let alone worship.(...)



// John Whiteside Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whiteside_Parsons), a self-proclaimed satanist that called himself "Anti-Christ". They lived together for a while and both were friends to Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley), also known as both Frater Perdurabo and The Great Beast 666. //

The answer to the riddle fell into my lap when at an auditor´s convention in 1996, I met a solo auditor who was also a druid. This puzzled me. How would a druid be a solo auditor on Solo 3 or vice versa?
He told me that druids consider themselves to be the keepers of spirituality in Europe. They keep a low profile since the Catholic Church to this day is up in arms against them. Druids are interested in any new development to find out what it´s worth, and perhaps to influence it.

Hubbard´s teachings are of particular importance to them. Because Hubbard (he said) was by education a druid. He was entrusted with the task of making druidic knowledge available to mankind in popular language.

How would my druid friend know this? Because his teacher told him. So I rang the teacher on the phone (a very long-distance call). He confirmed the story and said he had been told it by his teacher who as a child and a young man knew Hubbard personally, at a time when Hubbard was already in his fifties and sailing the Mediterranean in his Sea Org ships.
I asked him if Ron hadn´t told this young man some tall story to impress him, because (don´t we know?) Ron loved to create his PR image to suit the demands of his environment.
No, said the druid teacher, the story was again confirmed by his teacher´s teacher who studied druidism right at the time when Hubbard studied it - in the 1930´s. They didn´t study in the same place but knew of each other.

So for better or worse, here is the full story as it was given to me: Ron, born into a clan of magicians and witches, received a druid education from late childhood on. It lasted some 15 years. He was entrusted with the task of rendering Crowley powerless since Crowley was into black magic, and black magic is not what druids favour. Further, and as his masterpiece, he was to rehabilitate druidic knowledge in the eyes of the world.

Ron was excluded from druidic circles when he founded the "Church of Scientology" in 1954 since it´s against druidic policy to start a religion. (L.Kin, Volume 4, From

Thank you for that Jim. Quite astonishing improvement you have made in a short period of time with your grammar and sentences, both in clarity of your message and how it is presented. If I didn't know better I would have believed it was two different persons that posted this reply here compared to that person posting in all Hubbards threads.

this comes from the free zone link to LRH's history

jim

[Prodigal Son]

I read Crowley. In fact I take a lot of knowledge and wisdom from his writings. Does that make me a Satanist?

[InCiDeR]

I read Crowley. In fact I take a lot of knowledge and wisdom from his writings. Does that make me a Satanist?

I guess only you can answer that question. I have read Crowley as well, and I do not consider myself as a Satanist.

However, I never believed I was Satan or Anti-Christ or any other form of same entity. But maybe Satan himself wouldn't call him Satanist, I don't know...

[Prodigal Son]

I read Crowley. In fact I take a lot of knowledge and wisdom from his writings. Does that make me a Satanist?

I guess only you can answer that question. I have read Crowley as well, and I do not consider myself as a Satanist. However, I never believed I was Satan or Anti-Christ or any other form of same entity. But maybe Satan himself wouldn't call him Satanist, I don't know...Oh Crowley is most definitely a Satanist, I would never argue that he wasn't. But you've got to know how things work before you decide to use the knowledge for nefarious purposes.

[InCiDeR]

I read Crowley. In fact I take a lot of knowledge and wisdom from his writings. Does that make me a Satanist?

I guess only you can answer that question. I have read Crowley as well, and I do not consider myself as a Satanist. However, I never believed I was Satan or Anti-Christ or any other form of same entity. But maybe Satan himself wouldn't call him Satanist, I don't know...Oh Crowley is most definitely a Satanist, I would never argue that he wasn't. But you've got to know how things work before you decide to use the knowledge for nefarious purposes.

Agreed. Hubbard claimed that he was Satan, and according to many sources he also performed many dark magic rituals. Does that make him a satanist?

[Christine]

I read Crowley. In fact I take a lot of knowledge and wisdom from his writings. Does that make me a Satanist?

Hi Prodigal Son,

I am so glad you wrote the above. I too found a rather large amount of information from Crowley... part of my own investigation into the world that is hidden from our view. I still withhold judgement of him. I do know from personal experience that there are certain realms out there that are very seductive and powerful.

Another way to look at it, is to ask the question "How would we be able to unmask the master trickster if we don't find out his tricks?" A dangerous affair for sure.

It is a very delicate thread, the line between trickster and tricked.

Anyway just wanted to say thanks.

[ThePythonicCow]

I ALWAYS test my videos after I have made a post, and it DID work perfectly fine.

The second video I posted is not the same as the one I posted first. The second one had just two viewers when I posted that link, the first one had several hundreds.

And why would a youtube link have "scientology" in its link-address and not the ususal mix of letters and numbers? I am maybe not so smart, but I am not so dumb either, I would have noticed if that was the case.

I can't explain what happened, maybe I hit the edit button in my sleep, but it is strange indeed.

When you (or anyone on this forum) posts a ... link, there is some automatic editing that is done by the forum software during the posting process, which changes whatever URL you place inside the ... into just the 11 character Youtube video ID.

Perhaps what you tested, during your posting process, was before you got to this (somewhat hidden from plain view) automatic editing.

In any event, I have verified that the very first version of that Youtube video ID that ended up being posted into the forum database for that post of yours was "Scientology", not whatever ID you thought you were using.

So whatever happened, it was not a result of some subsequent editing of an already working post by yourself.

However I too cannot explain entirely what happened.

[Prodigal Son]

I too found a rather large amount of information from Crowley... part of my own investigation into the world that is hidden from our view. I still withhold judgement of him. I do know from personal experience that there are certain realms out there that are very seductive and powerful.

Another way to look at it, is to ask the question "How would we be able to unmask the master trickster if we don't find out his tricks?" A dangerous affair for sure.

It is a very delicate thread, the line between trickster and tricked.

The people who compiled the Bible in its present form went out of their way to make sure that the average uninitiated reader will flee like a gazelle being chased by lions from anything occult, astrological, or necromantic, and yet, it is filled with overt and not so overt Astrology, Occultism, and Necromancy. The initiates will in turn get priceless knowledge and wisdom from it, while the non-initiates will be forever excluded from its enlightenment.

The genuine truth-seeker must be fearless and relentlessly inquisitive. You may get burned, but that is the only way to learn what's hot and what's not.

The same thing applies to L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. It doesn't matter to me if someone claims to be Satan, if I can learn from him that I am a god, because Biblegod sure as hell isn't helping me out with that one.

[music]

(...)

here is the link of the history of LRH from free zone and yes he did know crowley and parsons but for different reason

http://www.freezone.de/english/timetrack/1940ies_earlier.html#Family Roots

jim


Thank you Jim. Would you also be so kind to explain for me what reason Hubbard had then?

Personally, anyone that are close friend to people who name themselves "Anti-Christ" respective "The Great Beast 666", and also according to his own son say that he IS Satan.

Such a person is a BIG RED flag for me:


The Satanic Elements of Scientology (http://www.factnet.org/satanic-elements-scientology)
(A long article, but worth it!)


[From an interview with L Ron Hubbard Jr.](...) "Scientology is black magic that is spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or at most; a few weeks. But in Scientology it is stretched out over a lifetime and so you don't see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology - and it is probably the only part of Scientology that really works.

"Also you've got to realize that my father did not worship Satan. He thought he was Satan. He was one with Satan. He had a direct pipeline of communication and power with him. My father wouldn't have worshipped anything, I mean. When you think you're the most powerful being in the universe, you have no respect for anything let alone worship.(...)



// John Whiteside Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whiteside_Parsons), a self-proclaimed satanist that called himself "Anti-Christ". They lived together for a while and both were friends to Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley), also known as both Frater Perdurabo and The Great Beast 666. //

The answer to the riddle fell into my lap when at an auditor´s convention in 1996, I met a solo auditor who was also a druid. This puzzled me. How would a druid be a solo auditor on Solo 3 or vice versa?
He told me that druids consider themselves to be the keepers of spirituality in Europe. They keep a low profile since the Catholic Church to this day is up in arms against them. Druids are interested in any new development to find out what it´s worth, and perhaps to influence it.

Hubbard´s teachings are of particular importance to them. Because Hubbard (he said) was by education a druid. He was entrusted with the task of making druidic knowledge available to mankind in popular language.

How would my druid friend know this? Because his teacher told him. So I rang the teacher on the phone (a very long-distance call). He confirmed the story and said he had been told it by his teacher who as a child and a young man knew Hubbard personally, at a time when Hubbard was already in his fifties and sailing the Mediterranean in his Sea Org ships.
I asked him if Ron hadn´t told this young man some tall story to impress him, because (don´t we know?) Ron loved to create his PR image to suit the demands of his environment.
No, said the druid teacher, the story was again confirmed by his teacher´s teacher who studied druidism right at the time when Hubbard studied it - in the 1930´s. They didn´t study in the same place but knew of each other.

So for better or worse, here is the full story as it was given to me: Ron, born into a clan of magicians and witches, received a druid education from late childhood on. It lasted some 15 years. He was entrusted with the task of rendering Crowley powerless since Crowley was into black magic, and black magic is not what druids favour. Further, and as his masterpiece, he was to rehabilitate druidic knowledge in the eyes of the world.

Ron was excluded from druidic circles when he founded the "Church of Scientology" in 1954 since it´s against druidic policy to start a religion. (L.Kin, Volume 4, From

Jim, even though I have observed the summer solstice at Stonehenge, doused the site to confirm my suspicions about the nature of earth energy and its possible usage there, been handfasted at Avebury ring, utilised many herbs magically and medicinally, most probably in the way Druids did, I'm afraid I have to tell you that revival Druidry is a sham of mostly incorrectly observed ritual gleaned from scant evidence and make-believe. Druidry is a broken tradition, and while there are men and women of power who recall the lost ways intuitively and live what we may call a Druidic life, these people generally don't call themselves Druids. So L. Ron Hubbards "Druid education" would have been as much a sham as the rest of his life was, if it even occurred at all, which I highly doubt.

[Bill Ryan]

(...)

here is the link of the history of LRH from free zone and yes he did know crowley and parsons but for different reason

http://www.freezone.de/english/timetrack/1940ies_earlier.html#Family Roots

jim


Thank you Jim. Would you also be so kind to explain for me what reason Hubbard had then?

Personally, anyone that are close friend to people who name themselves "Anti-Christ" respective "The Great Beast 666", and also according to his own son say that he IS Satan.

Such a person is a BIG RED flag for me:


The Satanic Elements of Scientology (http://www.factnet.org/satanic-elements-scientology)
(A long article, but worth it!)


[From an interview with L Ron Hubbard Jr.](...) "Scientology is black magic that is spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or at most; a few weeks. But in Scientology it is stretched out over a lifetime and so you don't see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology - and it is probably the only part of Scientology that really works.

"Also you've got to realize that my father did not worship Satan. He thought he was Satan. He was one with Satan. He had a direct pipeline of communication and power with him. My father wouldn't have worshipped anything, I mean. When you think you're the most powerful being in the universe, you have no respect for anything let alone worship.(...)

// John Whiteside Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whiteside_Parsons), a self-proclaimed satanist that called himself "Anti-Christ". They lived together for a while and both were friends to Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley), also known as both Frater Perdurabo and The Great Beast 666. //

The answer to the riddle fell into my lap when at an auditor´s convention in 1996, I met a solo auditor who was also a druid. This puzzled me. How would a druid be a solo auditor on Solo 3 or vice versa?
He told me that druids consider themselves to be the keepers of spirituality in Europe. They keep a low profile since the Catholic Church to this day is up in arms against them. Druids are interested in any new development to find out what it´s worth, and perhaps to influence it.

Hubbard´s teachings are of particular importance to them. Because Hubbard (he said) was by education a druid. He was entrusted with the task of making druidic knowledge available to mankind in popular language.

How would my druid friend know this? Because his teacher told him. So I rang the teacher on the phone (a very long-distance call). He confirmed the story and said he had been told it by his teacher who as a child and a young man knew Hubbard personally, at a time when Hubbard was already in his fifties and sailing the Mediterranean in his Sea Org ships.
I asked him if Ron hadn´t told this young man some tall story to impress him, because (don´t we know?) Ron loved to create his PR image to suit the demands of his environment.
No, said the druid teacher, the story was again confirmed by his teacher´s teacher who studied druidism right at the time when Hubbard studied it - in the 1930´s. They didn´t study in the same place but knew of each other.

So for better or worse, here is the full story as it was given to me: Ron, born into a clan of magicians and witches, received a druid education from late childhood on. It lasted some 15 years. He was entrusted with the task of rendering Crowley powerless since Crowley was into black magic, and black magic is not what druids favour. Further, and as his masterpiece, he was to rehabilitate druidic knowledge in the eyes of the world.

Ron was excluded from druidic circles when he founded the "Church of Scientology" in 1954 since it´s against druidic policy to start a religion. (L.Kin, Volume 4, From

Jim, even though I have observed the summer solstice at Stonehenge, doused the site to confirm my suspicions about the nature of earth energy and its possible usage there, been handfasted at Avebury ring, utilised many herbs magically and medicinally, most probably in the way Druids did, I'm afraid I have to tell you that revival Druidry is a sham of mostly incorrectly observed ritual gleaned from scant evidence and make-believe. Druidry is a broken tradition, and while there are men and women of power who recall the lost ways intuitively and live what we may call a Druidic life, these people generally don't call themselves Druids. So L. Ron Hubbards "Druid education" would have been as much a sham as the rest of his life was, if it even occurred at all, which I highly doubt.


Note for clarity: Jim was quoting from a book. Those were not his words.

[gripreaper]

Well I was wondering if I lived in the 30's and 40's, what would be my influences? What would I be reading? The only spiritual movements that I am aware of at the turn of the last century would be Madame Blavatsky and Yogananda. This might help to see where the seeds of opening up the mind and the body/soul connection developed prior to Dianetics.

[jiminii]

(...)

here is the link of the history of LRH from free zone and yes he did know crowley and parsons but for different reason

http://www.freezone.de/english/timetrack/1940ies_earlier.html#Family Roots

jim


Thank you Jim. Would you also be so kind to explain for me what reason Hubbard had then?

Personally, anyone that are close friend to people who name themselves "Anti-Christ" respective "The Great Beast 666", and also according to his own son say that he IS Satan.

Such a person is a BIG RED flag for me:


The Satanic Elements of Scientology (http://www.factnet.org/satanic-elements-scientology)
(A long article, but worth it!)


[From an interview with L Ron Hubbard Jr.](...) "Scientology is black magic that is spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or at most; a few weeks. But in Scientology it is stretched out over a lifetime and so you don't see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology - and it is probably the only part of Scientology that really works.

"Also you've got to realize that my father did not worship Satan. He thought he was Satan. He was one with Satan. He had a direct pipeline of communication and power with him. My father wouldn't have worshipped anything, I mean. When you think you're the most powerful being in the universe, you have no respect for anything let alone worship.(...)



// John Whiteside Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whiteside_Parsons), a self-proclaimed satanist that called himself "Anti-Christ". They lived together for a while and both were friends to Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley), also known as both Frater Perdurabo and The Great Beast 666. //

The answer to the riddle fell into my lap when at an auditor´s convention in 1996, I met a solo auditor who was also a druid. This puzzled me. How would a druid be a solo auditor on Solo 3 or vice versa?
He told me that druids consider themselves to be the keepers of spirituality in Europe. They keep a low profile since the Catholic Church to this day is up in arms against them. Druids are interested in any new development to find out what it´s worth, and perhaps to influence it.

Hubbard´s teachings are of particular importance to them. Because Hubbard (he said) was by education a druid. He was entrusted with the task of making druidic knowledge available to mankind in popular language.

How would my druid friend know this? Because his teacher told him. So I rang the teacher on the phone (a very long-distance call). He confirmed the story and said he had been told it by his teacher who as a child and a young man knew Hubbard personally, at a time when Hubbard was already in his fifties and sailing the Mediterranean in his Sea Org ships.
I asked him if Ron hadn´t told this young man some tall story to impress him, because (don´t we know?) Ron loved to create his PR image to suit the demands of his environment.
No, said the druid teacher, the story was again confirmed by his teacher´s teacher who studied druidism right at the time when Hubbard studied it - in the 1930´s. They didn´t study in the same place but knew of each other.

So for better or worse, here is the full story as it was given to me: Ron, born into a clan of magicians and witches, received a druid education from late childhood on. It lasted some 15 years. He was entrusted with the task of rendering Crowley powerless since Crowley was into black magic, and black magic is not what druids favour. Further, and as his masterpiece, he was to rehabilitate druidic knowledge in the eyes of the world.

Ron was excluded from druidic circles when he founded the "Church of Scientology" in 1954 since it´s against druidic policy to start a religion. (L.Kin, Volume 4, From

Jim, even though I have observed the summer solstice at Stonehenge, doused the site to confirm my suspicions about the nature of earth energy and its possible usage there, been handfasted at Avebury ring, utilised many herbs magically and medicinally, most probably in the way Druids did, I'm afraid I have to tell you that revival Druidry is a sham of mostly incorrectly observed ritual gleaned from scant evidence and make-believe. Druidry is a broken tradition, and while there are men and women of power who recall the lost ways intuitively and live what we may call a Druidic life, these people generally don't call themselves Druids. So L. Ron Hubbards "Druid education" would have been as much a sham as the rest of his life was, if it even occurred at all, which I highly doubt.


there is 2 entities in a body and they can conflict with each other ... this other entity entered in his body at 37 ... not like me at 4 and a half ,.. so he has already ran with the path he was taking for those 37 years ... and now a new entity is in him like in me ... and this new entity has to somehow make connection with the GE to influence it or manage it .. but at this age he has already a bit set in his ways ... but they chose him because it was the best option they had at the time ,,, if you read his history a lot of scientology started to open up then but he also has his family line and they've trained him another way ...he probably didn't think anything was going to happen with his work and even he said it was his dianetics book that opened up the doors .. he was going to go on another exploration trip when someone requested that he write down some of the stuff he was researching . so he stopped and wrote the book and it went to best seller list ... there is also reports he was in contact with UFO too ,,, same like me ... for me they set me up to continue my path but I was not suppose to reveal who I was or what I could do because they didn't want me endangered .. so it seemed no matter what I tried to do with scientology any attempt to audit me was somehow stopped for some reason and any attempt to continue was somehow stopped too ... so they wanted me to be an observer ... not only for Scientology but asia .. several times I had to come back to asia to stop something like the crushing of the economy in thailand . some more things in china and some more in Japan
so anyone can say if was a failure but it wasn't .... millions were audited and the many chains in them were erased .. and this was enough to change the future .... so it doesn't matter what negative or positive he did ... he was able to clearly create this bridge as he calls it and that bridge even after his death was still auditing and erasing these past chains that goes into billions of years ... in fact to get your total amnesia gone you have to do the new OT 5 ... the year date for this on how far it goes back in time is a number that can fill 3/4 ths of an 8 and a half by 11 piece of paper ... that is called the second wall of fire ... this is where total amnesia of the track is erase and you can have full recall of anything on the track
this body hasn't done it but this spirit in me has ... ... what is your intent here ...?? to just point out the bad stuff ,.. did you look at any of the good stuff too??? you maybe trying to prevent some disaster as may have happened before ... which is probably OK ... but try to look at the overall picture ... that is why I ran 3 days of pictures at flag service org ... he was trying to justify what his past was ... because he needed my help ... maybe I could have prevented the infiltration .. but it was too late ... he set up such a protection system for himself ... they have tried to kill him 3 times the 3rd was the worst where they ran a needle to the heart and he survived it .. I have had similar in impossible accidents like a 16 pound sledge hammer going right through my head and somehow this metteyya put the head back together ... others were drugged hypnotized and sent in to join the sea org and kill him ... he should have let me see him sooner but he didn't ... so when I ran out all the pictures the end phenomenon was that my cognition was I will lose my japanese wife ... so I left to get her out of the sea org before it was too late. she was in california at the international org somewhere in the desert .. the places later that david miscavage practically imprisoned people ... then I had to go to australia and do the same thing there so we can get enough auditing done in asia before this David destroyed the rest of the church .. and all the others like captain bill robertson had to go out and finish this bridge ...

this planet would not be getting free now if we didn't complete these missions no matter what shape these bodies where in ... after dianetics LRH's path was set ... and that is when they must have visited him . and I don't really know how it was done ... could have been out of body induction like me .. but from what I ran on all those pictures ... if I look at it now ...the picture I get is this ... they were in direct communication with him from the future ... and this was on and off ... this means he would do his research and this entity in him would go off and check all the results .. and so it is kind of like that ... since there is reports that he contacted ET people ... I can't really say if he did ... the pictures I get were his direct contact from the mettreyya that entered his body in 1937 ... from the future ... now I haven't been in his body myself .. this viewpoint ... but I ran his pictures .. that is what I see ...

jim

[Hervé]

Too many facets being presented as truths...

For starter, there is this letter from Parsons to Crowley:



“About 3 months ago I met Capt L Ron Hubbard, a writer and explorer of whom I had known for some time …. [no omission] He is a gentleman, red hair, green eyes, honest and intelligent and we have become great friends. He moved in with me about two months ago, and although Betty and I are still friendly, she has transferred her sexual affections to him.

Although he has no formal training in Magick he has an extraordinary amount of experience and understanding in the field. From some of his experiences I deduce he is in direct touch with some higher intelligence, possibly his Guardian Angel. He is the most Thelemic person I have ever met and is in complete accord with our own principles. He is also interested in establishing the New Aeon, but for cogent reasons I have not introduced him to the Lodge.

We are pooling our resources in a partnership which will act as a parent company to control our business ventures. I think I have made a great gain, and as Betty and I are the best of friends, there is little loss ….

I need a magical partner. I have many experiments in mind. I hope my elemental gets off the dime [gets moving] – the next time I tie up with a woman it will be on [my] own terms.”

Then, a research done in an attempt to get to the bottom of these gossips yields the following:



Critics have accused Ron of “swindling” Jack Parsons, and while Wright doesn’t add new news to this theory, he certainly manages to leave some important facts out.

Basically, Ron and Jack, in the short 4-5 months that they hung out and became good friends in 1945/1946, decided to go into business together — it was going to be a wide ranging enterprise, and the first idea was to buy three yachts cheaply on the east coast (Miami), bring them across the Panama Canal by hiring crews, and then selling them at a significant mark-up to the rich celebrity crowd in southern California. Parsons put up most of the money, but didn’t have to do any work. Hubbard put in a bit of money, but was responsible for doing all the legwork. This is a common business arrangement, where one partner provides the money, the other takes care of operations.

Beyond that, there were a number of future ideas that the two had thought up, including adding Hubbard’s writings to the partnership, Parsons was going to add some of the assets from his rocket work. (Source: Strange Angel, by Pendle). According to Heinlein, Hubbard talked up an idea of going to other countries, including a “China venture” — in one letter to Hubbard in 1946, Heinlein scolded Hubbard for being too talkative about China, getting his (Heinlein’s) nephews overly excited about exotic trips there.
[Source: Heinlein biography by Patterson]).

But forty years later, this became “Hubbard tried to swindle Parsons” in the minds of his critics, for two reasons:

(1) Because Ron was still in the Navy, he was required to get permission to leave the country. He listed South America, Central America and China as possible destinations. Because China was nowhere near the Panama Canal, this, in the minds of Hubbard’s critics, was due to Ron’s “secret plans to go to China”. Yeah, real secret — Heinlein was actually upset that Ron was talking about it too much.

(2) Crowely and his OTO team didn’t trust people — they didn’t trust Jack (to think for himself), they didn’t trust someone named Smith. They had endless back-stabbing drama amongst themselves. And their latest object of distrust was Ron. When Crowley (living in England, and having never met Ron) heard about the business venture, he decided that it was all a con by Ron and that he needed to brow-beat Jack, and with the help from other members of the drama-filled OTO, ultimately convinced Jack that Ron was swindling him.

In the mean time, Ron was busily carrying out the business plan (with the help of Betty) in Miami for about a month, had bought the boats and even hired the crews. But Jack had been convinced by Crowley and others that Ron wasn’t staying in touch with Jack enough, and therefore Ron must be onto something tricky. So Jack races across the country to find Ron and Betty doing exactly what they had all agreed to do. Ron had actually purchased three yachts! And worse, he had arranged the crews to sail them through the Panama Canal. The horror of it all!

Jack, having been all worked up by the OTO (and wanting to stay in good graces with Crowley), forced the partnership to be dissolved.

Hubbard and Betty were left thinking: WTF?

(Sources: “Strange Angel”, by Pendle; “Heinlein Biography, Vol 1″, by Patterson.)
—
Believe me, when Hubbard later referred to Aleister Crowley in a lecture as his “good friend”, he was joking. And the audience knew it. They chuckled when he said it.
**************************


As for the "druidic" upbringing, LRH, in many lectures, compared the psychiatrists' botching of human life as the modern equivalent of the druids' tradition of "sacrifice" which indicates he wasn't too keen in adhering to the druids' tradition he may have studied. A tradition he found out many a psychiatrist, in his time, were practicing.


***************************


On the other hand, he was made blood brother by a native shaman/medicine man when he was a kid... not that many individuals can claim that, whether native or not.

[Hervé]

The other thing for the propaganda and flack against Scientology, LRH and OTs and why the CIA and KGB were after him, stem from this:


[...]

From someone who's been there, done that... Ingo Swann in his book "Penetration (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_telepathy.htm)":

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/misc/quote_icon.png[...]

The work (in developing remote viewing) was largely funded by the U.S. intelligence agencies. Because of this, many Washington types and many noted scientists visited SRI. Very many of them met only with my colleagues, and refused to meet little Moi, so much so that they would not even take lunch with me.

The reason: “Jesús, he can read my mind! I can’t let him get anywhere near me.”

This quote is NOT paraphrased.

[...]

That example gives also a clue as to why so much flack against LRH research and the rehabilitation of OT abilities because it triggers a phenomenon that's called "missing a withhold" whereby someone thinks another may have found out about some murky dealings said someone has been involved with and triggers a fury from hell, against the suspected discoverer, that pales the one from a scorned woman...

Rockefeller's puppet, Henry Kissinger, however knew he had been found out about unleashing CIA's shady attacks against LRH and Scientology... LRH had Kissinger by the balls, so to speak:


I say "Rock Festival". It's not a musical event. It was a war, actually. That was when the American Embassy had tipped off the local Communist Party there that the 'Apollo' was a CIA ship. Portugal had just gone through the throes of its revolution, so at the time it was very 'left wing'.

And the Communists formed a big mob with torches and stones and rocks and everything and they came down to burn the ship. About 250 of them. And we fought them off for two hours and finally the local maritime police showed up with machine guns and dispersed the mob after they had knocked the Harbor-Master nearly unconscious in front of our ship with a 'two by four'. And we took him on board, gave him First Aid and he called some tug-boats and took us out to anchor where we would be safe.

At that point, LRH said - there was also some guys of our crew chased with knives down the street and so on - but still, no one got hurt from our side. Well, two people got knocked out by rocks, but they just didn't stay down. But none of the family was hurt. LRH was not hurt. Mary Sue was not hurt. Nobody else was hurt.

And LRH decided then that it was time to leave this area. It was getting a little too bit agitated by these US Government people. When we traced back the lines it always came from the United States and that was when a guy named Henry Kissinger was the Secretary of State. The orders were coming from his office through the Embassies and CIA.


So we went down to the Caribbean, through the Bahamas and so on. And finally the State Department of the United States with Kissinger at the wheel - you know Kissinger is one of the top SMERSH guys, as you know - a Public Relations man normally, although he opens his mouth a little bit too much most of the time - but he's one of the 'evil beings' on the planet.

He then started telexing his Embassies and so on in Barbados and Curacao, and what's the name of that place with all the oil and stuff there? Oh yeah - I've got it written right here - Oh yeah, I know what it is. This goes into 1975, I've just got to bring you up a year. Barbados, Trinidad and Curacao. We had attacks in all those places.

We were able to handle most of them because these countries are very small. We did get asked to leave a few ports and nobody could understand why, except it was some 'pressure' from the United States, they would "cut their foreign Aid" or something if they did (welcome us).

We also captured some telexes directly from the State Department that gave these orders and these were used in a lawsuit that LRH asked to be brought against Kissinger, the State Department, and several other named Embassy and American consular officials. And it was filed in the United States. An 800 million dollar lawsuit against Henry Kissinger and other people in the State Department, who were in office at the time, by the way.

Now, the United States Government went through a whole series of convolutions to keep this a secret. It never appeared in the press. And this suit will become important in the next years, so just remember that.

That suit is now being pushed, pushed, pushed in 1975 through the courts in the United States, trying to get somebody to open it up, make it public, accept it, DO IT, see?

(A DEBRIEF by CAPT. W. B. Robertson RA, Sector 9)

[music]

I was contacted by a member and asked if I still stand by the original article I posted because I seemed to have lost interest in this thread. Yes, I do, I have conversed with the author of the above article and she passes both my intellectual and energetic sniff tests. Go to the top of the page, click the link and see for yourself. I have posted an article from them here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59380-Tavistock----A-Decent-History&p=677879#post677879) on this site which illustrates the difficulty of the quest for truth on the net. I stand by the authors there.

I have lost interest in this thread because I have learned in life that it pointless debating with dogmatic ideologues.

I will however reply to this:


On the other hand, he was made blood brother by a native shaman/medicine man when he was a kid... not that many individuals can claim that, whether native or not.



Is there anyone who actually believes that? What PROOF do we have of that? NONE. I challenge you to find me any authentic native shaman who endorses Hubbard. And don't insult our intelligence by quoting some org source as your proof - you'll have to do better than that thank you very much, my mind is still very much my own.

[Carmody]

Music:

In your opening post, a response to a statement of Ron Hubbard's (not saying it's yours):


Think about it – that means we are all characterized as mentally impaired!

I'd have to agree with that. No disrespect to anyone, but 99.99% of the human race is mentally impaired.

They THINK they are getting somewhere, but they are really off. May as well be in a port-a-potty somewhere, taking a long distracted never ending crap...for all the 'on the ball-awake-aware, functioning in a productive way' that they may be.

Being reactive, born and raised that way, trained that way, to be emotionally reactive......they'd take this post negatively. Which is entirely part and parcel of the problem.

How do you help people who so identify with what is holding them back, that they'd kill you for trying it?

Again, I'm being polite. The real stat is approx 99.999%.

http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/f47/466/port-a-potty-on-the-river-sheridan.jpg

For example, sacrifcing your life, slaving away a job, so your children can go to school and grow up nice. well, that's all fine and dandy, but your real task is to get yourself clear, first, then head to any of that, with a clear head and mind. Anything else..... is more akin to a monkey banging the girl monkey next door.... and creating more monkeys.

As distasteful (an emotional reaction) as my remark may seem, it is closer to a real truth (frighteningly close) than the idea of sacrificing one's life in labour so their children can grow up nice. My phrasing may not seem so polite, but so is the ability to be activated by words or thought, into an emotional turmoil which overrules rational thought. Overrules at all (even in the slightest).... is a serious problem.


Which puts the sociopath and associated characters a full step ahead of the emotional person. Their view is less clouded. Skewed to their desires, maybe, but essentially...less clouded.

[Carmody]

I read Crowley. In fact I take a lot of knowledge and wisdom from his writings. Does that make me a Satanist?

I guess only you can answer that question. I have read Crowley as well, and I do not consider myself as a Satanist.

However, I never believed I was Satan or Anti-Christ or any other form of same entity. But maybe Satan himself wouldn't call him Satanist, I don't know...

The way i see it is (example)...if I saw a reptilian appear suddenly in front of me, the emotion would not be fear....but elation, and relief. Laughter.

For it is then reflected as 100% real..... and I am then.....Fully and firmly In My Power.

Confirmation, not loss and contraction.

Opening. Opening into something far bigger, far more powerful.

Is dimensionally connected satanism real? If it is, in that moment...it gives you ALL, not less. It's reality gives you everything. It is one side of a coin, finally peeking out of the sand. You realize not just the side, but the whole of the coin, first.


This is why it is hidden.

[music]

Carmody, there is a very serious logical flaw in your argument, and that is that if the person who developed these techniques, and who should logically be the clearest of us all is so patently not clear, then these techniques are seriously flawed. Even Bill has admitted here in his Q&A thread that L. Ron Hubbard was a seriously flawed individual, and his disclaimer that most great men are flawed really doesn't hold water when we are talking about supposed psychological and spiritual health.

It's like saying "Jesus was a psychopath who physically and psychologically abused his family and disciples, but he had a winning way with a parable, so he is just alright by me"

I have very intentionally stayed away from Bill's Q&A thread out of respect, but this is my thread, and while I may be a guest in Bill's house, a good host allows his guests their own chair at the table, and I'll defend my chair.

People have been getting themselves clear for a long, long time, and the techniques they use don't have much in common with MKUltra techniques. Neither, as the linked to blog above demonstrates so well, were they developed so in tandem that it stretches the limits of coincidence. Neither, unlike L Ron Hubbard did they use pain-drug hypnosis to shatter personalities, a process Hubbard himself describes as "wicked" and "vicious".


Later on, in his book, Science of Survival (1951), L. Ron Hubbard reveals his first-hand knowledge of the techniques of pain-drug-hypnosis.

“This form of hypnotism has been a carefully guarded secret of certain military and intelligence organizations. It is a vicious war weapon and may be of more use in conquering a society than the atom bomb. Pain-drug-hypnosis is a wicked extension of narco-synthesis, the drug hypnosis used in America only during and since the last war. But pain-drug-hypnosis, due mainly to the intent of the operator, is a much more vicious procedure. The Foundation undertook some tests with regard to the effectiveness of pain-drug-hypnosis and found it so appallingly destructive to the personality… Pain-drug-hypnosis is so effectively destructive that the Foundation has ceased experimentation along this line, having already learned enough and refusing to endanger the sanity of individuals."

Some of us may recall that this coincides with the time the US was using Nazi Mind Kontrol (MK) scientist and psychologists imported after the war under "Operation paperclip" to do the very same cruel and evil experiments on unwilling wards or charges of the state - pain drug hypnosis - evil, vile reprehensible, and L Ron Hubbard was right up there with them uitlising these same techniques by his own admission.

I don't think Jesus or Buddha would have used pain drug hypnosis to criminally shatter someone's psyche, and Jesus certainly wouldn't have done it for the Pontius Pilate regime after serving in their military arm.

When this whole ron's org thing started up here, Carmody, I must admit I said to myself, ah, wonder how long til Carmody comes out in support, and lo and behold, I was right.

Here (http://ra-info.org/mind-control/) is a mind control resource page

and this is a simple video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPK6TuDdLWU

[ThePythonicCow]

Carmody, there is a very serious logical flaw in your argument, and that is that if the person who developed these techniques, and who should logically be the clearest of us all is so patently not clear, then these techniques are seriously flawed.



non sequitur
...

When this whole ron's org thing started up here, Carmody, I must admit I said to myself, ah, wonder how long til Carmody comes out in support, and lo and behold, I was right.



ad hominem

[music]

Carmody, there is a very serious logical flaw in your argument, and that is that if the person who developed these techniques, and who should logically be the clearest of us all is so patently not clear, then these techniques are seriously flawed.



non sequitur
...

When this whole ron's org thing started up here, Carmody, I must admit I said to myself, ah, wonder how long til Carmody comes out in support, and lo and behold, I was right.



ad hominem

Like hell it's a non sequitur Paul, it makes perfect sense to the way my mind, and many other mind's work. It also follows in light of the fact that in my opinion, L Ron Hubbard was in the employ of Tavistock via CIA via MK Ultra, and that his techniques are flawed because they are at heart intelligence gathering and mind control techniques. It is a non sequitur in your opinion, not in my opinion.

Ad hominem? Since you insist on drawing me out on it, merely commenting that the appearance of the matter to me is that Carmody is another Ron's org sleeper, yet he claims to have only just started reading Dianetics. It is only ad hominem if I am wrong, so maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

[karelia]

It is only ad hominem if I am wrong, so maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Not quite:

ad ho·mi·nem
[ad hom-uh-nuhm -nem, ahd‐] Show IPA
adjective
1.
appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2.
attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

[Bill Ryan]

Carmody, there is a very serious logical flaw in your argument, and that is that if the person who developed these techniques, and who should logically be the clearest of us all is so patently not clear, then these techniques are seriously flawed.



non sequitur
...

When this whole ron's org thing started up here, Carmody, I must admit I said to myself, ah, wonder how long til Carmody comes out in support, and lo and behold, I was right.



ad hominem

Like hell it's a non sequitur Paul, it makes perfect sense to the way my mind, and many other mind's work. It also follows in light of the fact that in my opinion, L Ron Hubbard was in the employ of Tavistock via CIA via MK Ultra, and that his techniques are flawed because they are at heart intelligence gathering and mind control techniques. It is a non sequitur in your opinion, not in my opinion.

Ad hominem? Since you insist on drawing me out on it, merely commenting that the appearance of the matter to me is that Carmody is another Ron's org sleeper, yet he claims to have only just started reading Dianetics. It is only ad hominem if I am wrong, so maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Music, I respect your passion (because you're pretty upset), but you simply don't know what you're talking about.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

And you have just a little knowledge here. Your arrogance is causing to believe that you know it all. There's no way you do, or possibly can.

Rather than trying to understand, you have cherry-picked articles from the internet to support your assumptions and your prejudice. That's not a very intelligent thing to do. You have the opportunity to learn something here (if you choose to do so) -- but are apparently determined to beat your own drum instead.

The intellectually courageous thing to do is to admit that there are things you don't yet understand very well (which is not a fault: we're all on this planet to learn, among other things) -- and hang on in here to figure it all out.

But you have pretty much 50% cut and run: it looks like you're pretty much out of here. And that's quite okay, by the way. But what you're doing, and the way you are conducting yourself, is transparent, and not very impressive.

You come over as very 'everything-is-beautiful-and-we-are-all-sweetness-and-light' -- until you get angry. Then you become really irrational. You may have something you can learn here. The jury is out about whether you will.

FYI:

'Clear' is a technical term meaning (as a very loose summary) that you don't have any more engrams. See the 'Dianetics Picture Book', reposted below, for details. Hubbard's description in his early 1950 book 'Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health' was too optimistic in practice, though he was definitely aware of and striving for something real. 'Clear' does absolutely NOT mean that you're a perfect human being, or are not affected by other things.

Erasing all your engrams is a very valuable threshold to cross. But it's just a step along the way. It's not at all the end of the road. There's a LOT else in terms of unfinished business, accumulated through the millennia, that can drag one down and affect attitudes, beliefs, goals, behavior, your body, and just about everything else.

Enfoldedblue was at least smart enough to ask the question. I'll continue in response to her own simple, very balanced and intellectually honest post, which was here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59276-Q-and-A-about-Ron-Hubbard-Bill-Robertson-Scientology-the-Free-Zone-Ron-s-Org-Planet-Earth.-Jim-and-the-Future&p=677656&viewfull=1#post677656) (on another thread).

http://projectavalon.net/Dianetics_Picture_Book.pdf
http://projectavalon.net/Dianetics_Picture_Book.pdf

[Bill Ryan]

Carmody, there is a very serious logical flaw in your argument

post scriptum :)

... it's not very smart to accuse Carmody (who has an IQ of over 200) of 'logical flaws'!

[CdnSirian]

I sure feel sad seeing where this is going.

The volume of discussion and info and reaction to the LRH/Jiminii related threads is huge. Overwhelming maybe? Especially for those who are trying to get a grip on the mere nomenclature (maybe close to a hundred of words and acronyms), philosophical comparisons, and information available on the internet of famous or infamous persons involved.

Tearing a couple of hairs out here - please let's not lose anyone!!

I think Jiminii should have his own group thread. There is too much that cannot be easily understood. Just trying to help!

[Carmody]

Music:

I have so little interest, I've never read Dianetics. I've had a copy since my teens, but never bothered to read it. (located amid thousands of other books-it just sat there)

I only started reading it a few days ago. I'm about halfway through chapter 3. So far I see nothing wrong. A different method of labeling things, and minor differences in motions, etc. But nothing 'Rotten in Denmark' so far.

I'm not done yet. Also, I'm just one person, with one opinion. As well, I've not held a good opinion of it, due to external influences....for the past..oh...25+ years. I've read some of Ron's Sci-fi and enjoyed it.

I'm neutral. I'm simply reading some words, so far. Nothing more.

[Carmody]

Carmody, there is a very serious logical flaw in your argument

post scriptum :)

... it's not very smart to accuse Carmody (who has an IQ of over 200) of 'logical flaws'!

The last 40-50-60 of that came through the act of clearing myself, the old fashioned way.

In that vein, I have no arguments with the premise that doing the clearing, as outlined in Ron's book -will help bring about the same in other people.

Note that this is not a statement of corrective surgery on morality or ethics as a starting point vs an ending point (before and after) it is just a mentioned thought on my personal assessment of Ron's statement about clearing bringing about a higher intelligence, a greater capacity. I have no argument about that aspect.

I did say that I was not fond of it's lack of a wider and more complete foundation. It is a shorthand, a notes version. In that way, it can and does leave some room for manipulation to enter the equation. In that way it requires some attention on the side of the initiate.

For example auditing by another who would presumably be keeping records? This is a bit too close to the idea of giving up secrets when joining a secret society. Too much control for the organization. This is room for the rotten to move in, and it must be avoided at all costs. I might grow to not personally care if, in this 'auditing', my personal secrets were known (where I am right now-mental position-I don't give a damn, it means nothing), but they could be used against me via telling them to a public that can be manipulated into being against me.

Which is why I stated that it APPEARED to be a way to begin, and then..finish on one's OWN. I would personally handle it no other way.

[Bill Ryan]

Later on, in his book, Science of Survival (1951), L. Ron Hubbard reveals his first-hand knowledge of the techniques of pain-drug-hypnosis.

“This form of hypnotism has been a carefully guarded secret of certain military and intelligence organizations. It is a vicious war weapon and may be of more use in conquering a society than the atom bomb. Pain-drug-hypnosis is a wicked extension of narco-synthesis, the drug hypnosis used in America only during and since the last war. But pain-drug-hypnosis, due mainly to the intent of the operator, is a much more vicious procedure. The Foundation undertook some tests with regard to the effectiveness of pain-drug-hypnosis and found it so appallingly destructive to the personality… Pain-drug-hypnosis is so effectively destructive that the Foundation has ceased experimentation along this line, having already learned enough and refusing to endanger the sanity of individuals."

Some of us may recall that this coincides with the time the US was using Nazi Mind Kontrol (MK) scientist and psychologists imported after the war under "Operation paperclip" to do the very same cruel and evil experiments on unwilling wards or charges of the state - pain drug hypnosis - evil, vile reprehensible, and L Ron Hubbard was right up there with them uitlising these same techniques by his own admission.

Another necessary clarification (for which I apologize to CdnSirian and others! See his post #45 above.)

music, what you wrote was a twisted smear, which shows how little you understand of what you are quoting. (Sorry to say it that bluntly: but this is the case).

Hubbard found PDH (Pain-Drug-Hypnosis) to be way more than reprehensible. He states that really clearly in the very extract you quoted -- and many hundreds more times in bulletins, lectures, and in his many other books. His stance against mind control was 100% clear.

He was experimenting so that he could find ways to erase it. It's exactly the same as a biochemist who injects himself or one of his research colleagues (with their full consent) with a toxin -- so they can find an antidote. He wasn't trying to do any harm! He was trying to understand the problem better, so that he could fix it. He was a researcher, above all.

He was also the first whistleblower against MK-ULTRA, and all the other related projects.

Can you begin to see better now?

[music]

I see that in my last post I was operating from the head, rather than the heart (which is rarely a good thing), and I am prepared to eat humble pie and apologise to all. Carmody, especially, I am sorry I flew off the handle at you.

Bill, I will look at the book you posted, and give the ideas a chance. I am not saying you personally are operating from the space that I see LRH operating from ie flawed. What I was saying is I find it hard to accept that someone (LHR), who by his own words admitted he engaged in pain-drug hypnosis experiments on innocent victims, could be coming from a space from which I would expect to find anything to help me with my spiritual development. But, as I said, I will read the snapshot you have provided with an open heart and mind.

[Flash]

Music:

In your opening post, a response to a statement of Ron Hubbard's (not saying it's yours):


Think about it – that means we are all characterized as mentally impaired!

I'd have to agree with that. No disrespect to anyone, but 99.99% of the human race is mentally impaired.

They THINK they are getting somewhere, but they are really off. May as well be in a port-a-potty somewhere, taking a long distracted never ending crap...for all the 'on the ball-awake-aware, functioning in a productive way' that they may be.

Being reactive, born and raised that way, trained that way, to be emotionally reactive......they'd take this post negatively. Which is entirely part and parcel of the problem.

How do you help people who so identify with what is holding them back, that they'd kill you for trying it?

Again, I'm being polite. The real stat is approx 99.999%.

http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/f47/466/port-a-potty-on-the-river-sheridan.jpg

For example, sacrifcing your life, slaving away a job, so your children can go to school and grow up nice. well, that's all fine and dandy, but your real task is to get yourself clear, first, then head to any of that, with a clear head and mind. Anything else..... is more akin to a monkey banging the girl monkey next door.... and creating more monkeys.

As distasteful (an emotional reaction) as my remark may seem, it is closer to a real truth (frighteningly close) than the idea of sacrificing one's life in labour so their children can grow up nice. My phrasing may not seem so polite, but so is the ability to be activated by words or thought, into an emotional turmoil which overrules rational thought. Overrules at all (even in the slightest).... is a serious problem.


Which puts the sociopath and associated characters a full step ahead of the emotional person. Their view is less clouded. Skewed to their desires, maybe, but essentially...less clouded.

This post makes me reactive emotionally, :p getting me real depressed. Why? Because I know this is right and that I am part of the 99.999% still. To me, the job of clearing oneself seems endless. This would mean no children in this lifetime for a great majority of us, if we are to make them once cleared.

Yet, I know clearing should precede giving life, even if I did not take that path.

So yes, it makes me sad and sorry. Yet, the work has to be done.

Thank you Carmody for alllll you posts here, and particularly for you last posts in this thread and others.

[Christine]

Music:

In your opening post, a response to a statement of Ron Hubbard's (not saying it's yours):


Think about it – that means we are all characterized as mentally impaired!

I'd have to agree with that. No disrespect to anyone, but 99.99% of the human race is mentally impaired.

They THINK they are getting somewhere, but they are really off. May as well be in a port-a-potty somewhere, taking a long distracted never ending crap...for all the 'on the ball-awake-aware, functioning in a productive way' that they may be.

Being reactive, born and raised that way, trained that way, to be emotionally reactive......they'd take this post negatively. Which is entirely part and parcel of the problem.

How do you help people who so identify with what is holding them back, that they'd kill you for trying it?

Again, I'm being polite. The real stat is approx 99.999%.

http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/f47/466/port-a-potty-on-the-river-sheridan.jpg

For example, sacrificing your life, slaving away a job, so your children can go to school and grow up nice. well, that's all fine and dandy, but your real task is to get yourself clear, first, then head to any of that, with a clear head and mind. Anything else..... is more akin to a monkey banging the girl monkey next door.... and creating more monkeys.

As distasteful (an emotional reaction) as my remark may seem, it is closer to a real truth (frighteningly close) than the idea of sacrificing one's life in labour so their children can grow up nice. My phrasing may not seem so polite, but so is the ability to be activated by words or thought, into an emotional turmoil which overrules rational thought. Overrules at all (even in the slightest).... is a serious problem.


Which puts the sociopath and associated characters a full step ahead of the emotional person. Their view is less clouded. Skewed to their desires, maybe, but essentially...less clouded.

This post makes me reactive emotionally, :p getting me real depressed. Why? Because I know this is right and that I am part of the 99.999% still. To me, the job of clearing oneself seems endless. This would mean no children in this lifetime for a great majority of us, if we are to make them once cleared.

Yet, I know clearing should precede giving life, even if I did not take that path.

So yes, it makes me sad and sorry. Yet, the work has to be done.

Thank you Carmody for alllll you posts here, and particularly for you last posts in this thread and others.

Hi Flash,

When I read the same post I laughed and laughed and laughed. (Thanks Carmody!)

I feel the same way you do, that most of us are in 99.99% (self included, much of the time, but not all of the time.)

But and this is what keeps us going, we KNOW we are ACTUALLY cleaning up the crap! In the face of the enormity of the pile WE prevail! At this moment I feel such a wave of gratitude for every single particle of light that is flowing unto our planet! From each and everyone of us.

Christine

[jiminii]

Later on, in his book, Science of Survival (1951), L. Ron Hubbard reveals his first-hand knowledge of the techniques of pain-drug-hypnosis.

“This form of hypnotism has been a carefully guarded secret of certain military and intelligence organizations. It is a vicious war weapon and may be of more use in conquering a society than the atom bomb. Pain-drug-hypnosis is a wicked extension of narco-synthesis, the drug hypnosis used in America only during and since the last war. But pain-drug-hypnosis, due mainly to the intent of the operator, is a much more vicious procedure. The Foundation undertook some tests with regard to the effectiveness of pain-drug-hypnosis and found it so appallingly destructive to the personality… Pain-drug-hypnosis is so effectively destructive that the Foundation has ceased experimentation along this line, having already learned enough and refusing to endanger the sanity of individuals."

Some of us may recall that this coincides with the time the US was using Nazi Mind Kontrol (MK) scientist and psychologists imported after the war under "Operation paperclip" to do the very same cruel and evil experiments on unwilling wards or charges of the state - pain drug hypnosis - evil, vile reprehensible, and L Ron Hubbard was right up there with them uitlising these same techniques by his own admission.

Another necessary clarification (for which I apologize to CdnSirian and others! See his post #45 above.)

music, what you wrote was a twisted smear, which shows how little you understand of what you are quoting. (Sorry to say it that bluntly: but this is the case).

Hubbard found PDH (Pain-Drug-Hypnosis) to be way more than reprehensible. He states that really clearly in the very extract you quoted -- and many hundreds more times in bulletins, lectures, and in his many other books. His stance against mind control was 100% clear.

He was experimenting so that he could find ways to erase it. It's exactly the same as a biochemist who injects himself or one of his research colleagues (with their full consent) with a toxin -- so they can find an antidote. He wasn't trying to do any harm! He was trying to understand the problem better, so that he could fix it. He was a researcher, above all.

He was also the first whistleblower against MK-ULTRA, and all the other related projects.

Can you begin to see better now?

let's put our selves somewhere in the year 2370 to 2400 ... and we know we are in trouble because the reptilians have carried mind control to the point where they are controlling everyone's minds ... just like you people are saying you are having psychic attacks .... the same I had being in the Sea Org ... it was very rough to postulate in all that negativity ... now from 2370 ... we have to come up with a solution and we already know about the time track and many more things a spirit can do by then so ... we decided to go back into time ... to this time and find a way to change it .... so we do the most positive thing and that is create brand new spirit beings who have never lost their powers but have never used them either .. so they are basically all baby gods .... now we send them back to this time ... we know there are spirit beings here because we can find them in the bodies along side a GE ... but all of the track recordings are still here .. the entire time track is still here .. every instant of time and creation of this physical universe is still here ... so the spirit beings outside of the box and that is every spirit being that is creating this reality that is here ...decide this path .. take major important pieces of this track and create another spirit being that will create thetans in the box to go back to those periods of time and repair it ... we can say maybe he PDH'd or maybe he observed ... we don't know that .. but if these same PDH'd people are now in the future in some painful existence as a slave to some reptilian controlled society using pain to keep them as slaves ... then are we doing anything wrong trying to free them in this time so they are not slaves in the future ..??? we know that they decided to come back here and place new beings here to try to change the future ....

so basically if you can have that .. that we are here as observers ... system busters then just ... look at the doctors and all they are doing is using tech that is used to just sell drugs for money ... and people think they are honest while they are messing up people by the billions ,. no matter what you do ... you still have to make it go right

so in your research you can be damaging a few beings but I don't think a spirit being would be in any of those experiments ..they would be out doing other things usually you will find what we call "motivator hungry" ... people literally get themselves sick so they can get sympathy ... and motivator is something that happens to you ... you pull in this motivator because you committed and overt act (non survival act) against one of the dynamics .. (self, sex/family, groups, all man kind, all life forms, the physical universe, the spiritual universe, through or as a god) so these people are there and someone will PDH them whether it be LRH or anyone else ... they have some agreement with the government to do this
and you don't know what LRH did ... you weren't there.... he could just be going there to observe. there are many on this site who went in and worked with the government in total agreement to make atomic bombs and biological warfare atomic reactors drugs and every other thing that is in this world .. but look at his track.. he only stayed there long enough to get the data .. he didn't make it a life time occupation so he can get a handsome salary and go home to his mansion .. where in fact most of his money went to buying property for others to do the work in like Saint Hill Manor in England ... and Fort Harrison Hotel in Clearwater and the ciders hospital in hollywood ..the flag ships the athena ship in copenhagen. I saw the order come down from LRH that said, "please do not send any money for royalties on any my books or anything else because they will take our Non profit status away ... so he made his research money from selling science fiction novels ... so that is what I know .. I was there ... can you say you were there and if you can't then you don't know ... I appreciate that you bring this up because someone else will if you don't ... but let's get on with the battle and make this planet ours OK?

LRH said ... "if we hadn't of waited so long ...... if we hadn't of waited so long ,.. we wouldn't be in so much trouble"

get the free being tape and find out how this sector of the universe really operates before you can judge what everyone is doing ,.. I have met people who want it perfect ...everything ... they want this totally idealistic world and they have no ability to see anything less ... we are doing the greatest good for the greatest dynamics as being chosen by those in the future because if we don't .... everyone would eventually be a slave to this reality and no one would be able to find a way out,

jim

[eaglespirit]

...and my 'simple sentiment' :

We have been over manipulated extensively and maliciously to and through the core for eons...
it has/had to be stopped before it tore our ability to determine and react to shreds for about forever.

So by our very own 'clean' loving free choice...determine and react and act and make it stop...
and for once and for all increase the Spirit of BEing at higher levels more freely than ever!

Diligent intuitive cleansing work can simply get some there...but many need(ed)help and direction...many ways to do this...this way happened to work in turbo.

[Bill Ryan]

What I was saying is I find it hard to accept that someone (LRH), who by his own words admitted he engaged in pain-drug hypnosis experiments on innocent victims...

But he didn't! Certainly absolutely not in the way that you're framing it.

Please read and understand what I posted above here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59257-Tavistock-Hubbard-Dianetics-MKUltra-and-the-CIA&p=678064&viewfull=1#post678064). -- although I understand that the posts may have leapfrogged so that you didn't get a chance to read it.

Please acknowledge that you realise your misunderstanding -- thank you. This is important for others reading this thread. It's a perfect example of the way that misinformation gets spread. :)

(Your apology and magnanimity was much appreciated, btw.)

[CdnSirian]

Jiminii said "we have to come up with a solution and we already know about the time track and many more things a spirit can do by then so ... we decided to go back into time"...

This has been mentioned by Bill R., and also in other areas of spiritual study as well.

Easily done, since time is malleable and the linear aspect is said to be only as rigid as we experience it (or don't) on this planet. Also from the universe as a hologram concept, we can leave the physical and go back in any time. Interesting isn't it? Infinite possibilities.

[music]

Bill, I've only just seen your request to me now, I have been keeping away from this and was hoping this thread would have just died. If you feel my commentary of LRH's words are unjust, I recant them and apologise for the injury to anyone's sensibilities. I should have just let his words speak for themselves.

To save a long nesting of quotes, I'll reproduce them here for thread clarity, but not my comments, obviously, since I've recanted them.

"But pain-drug-hypnosis, due mainly to the intent of the operator, is a much more vicious procedure"

"The Foundation undertook some tests with regard to the effectiveness of pain-drug-hypnosis and found it so appallingly destructive to the personality"

"Pain-drug-hypnosis is so effectively destructive that the Foundation has ceased experimentation along this line, having already learned enough and refusing to endanger the sanity of individuals"

If you could refer me to somewhere with concrete information on LRH being the first whistleblower on MK Ultra, I would of course, be interested to read it.

Thank you.