Bill, Why Dianetics is Not For Me

[music]

Bill, you posted some information on Dianetics, for which I thank you, and I said I would get back to you. Rather than resurrect the thread where you did this, I will reply here.

We each have our journey, and if Dianetics truly helps someone to become happy and aware, then I am happy for them, but this is not for me. I will politely give my reasons below, you, or others may read them or not, whichever is your preference. I will not be offended if no one reads them. These are my opinions, and the concerns I express are mine, and not a condemnation of anyone whose opinion differs from mine.

I find Dianetics to be overly head based – that is – it doesn’t quite make it to the heart. For me, if we wish to be balanced, and “clear”, we need to address our issues both from the root, and from the head, and to draw these to each other in the heart. Our feminine, root-based processes make their way to the heart readily, while our masculine, head-based processes have difficulty. They encounter a stumbling block, and that stumbling block is wily enough to construct ersatz awareness to avoid becoming entangled with what it sees as inferior human processes.

Bill, in your Q & A thread, you were asked how are we to believe that Dianetics is a valid tool for awareness when we look at the behaviour of L Ron Hubbard, who developed it? Your answer was along the lines of “many great men are flawed”. Interesting in light of my comments above is the fact that I have never once heard the poor behaviour of a woman excused with “many a great woman is flawed”, but I have heard the “flawed great man” excuse more times than I wish to recall. Is this excuse itself not a symptom of the over-dominance and control of masculine energy in our society? For me, awareness is about balance – the masculine and the feminine.

Dianetics also seems to me to be heavy biased toward the Freudian school of psycho-analysis, a school which I have problems with, and which I personally see as a disempowerment mechanism. Memories and associated pain are not just restricted to the mind – scar tissue, for example, carries emotional and psychological pain, as well as physical pain long after normal healing would be expected to have been completed. Spirit, likewise may be affected in this manner, but as is relevant to spirit. I agree that Dianetics has as its core thrust a notion of processing of issues (engrams), but ultimately, I feel the whole framework is disempowering to the individual. We are beautiful, powerful beings, part of the all, who choose to incarnate at a point in space and time. We know joy and sorrow, flow and blockage, pain and pleasure, and many other things which give us life experience, some problematic that we label “issues”. Rather than seeing these issues as signs of “powerlessness” of the individual (much in the same way as the concept is used in alcoholics anonymous, or narcotics anonymous), perhaps it would be wiser to see them as “placeholders” indicative of necessary future work?

Or as an invitation to learn a lesson?

Without the mediating effect of energetic balance in clearing work, the mind can say things like “99% of the population are mentally unstable”, and those who are likewise mind-focussed can be easily misled into thinking they are saying a good thing. The truth of the matter in my opinion is that “the majority of the population are disempowered because we live within an enforced energetic imbalance”. It is very easy to convince someone “it is all in the mind” when we live in an energetically unbalanced society, and where bodily (somatic), spiritual or emotional intelligence, is not generally considered.

Powerlessness creates a vacuum which is all too easily filled by people who are energetically imbalanced and pre-disposed to the masculine energy of control. In case what I mean isn’t clear here, this is the society we currently labour under, and this is the crucible of the school of thought that wishes to exert ultimate control over us all through complete disempowerment. An admission within the individual of “powerlessness” is tacit consent to be directed by the will of an external force. It is the invitation for the vampire to enter the house.

We are not the powerless, shallow, two-dimensional beings that I see Dianetics saying it can turn into “gods”, though certainly, to some extent, many of us have been made to believe we are. We have been made that way by an energetically imbalanced society that is head focused, and controlled by people who prosper under the dominant masculine energy to the detriment of 99% of the population. Without energetic balance, quite simply, there is no heart, and it is only in the heart, when the poles are reunited, that we become God.

The way out of the state of imbalance is not to use a head-focussed, quasi-Freudian, “its all in the mind” approach
.....................
The way out is to realise that our true nature is not a duality, with one camp dominant over the other – our true nature is a unity of balanced polarities, firmly seated in the heart, fully inclusive, and with no ruling elite, whether it be cabal or mind.

Love and Blessings to All

[Bill Ryan]

-------

That's okay! You can do anything you like. :)

[GoodETxSG]

I haven't seen Bill's Thread on this subject (You should paste a link to it in this Thread). I can comment on the book.

I think I read Dianetics in 1988 (I think)... and read it cover to cover (With a dictionary in the other hand).

I think I used the little fish in brackish water analogy and Engram word for years before I even knew it was related to Scientology (And years later until I knew what Scientology was).

I am absolutely NOT a Scientologist by any means nor will I get into the bashing of anyone's beliefs... but I PERSONALLY found the book very helpful in my own growth.

Like I said I read it cover to cover, I didn't join a cult or jump up on anyone's coffee table and go freaky or anything like that.

I just read it, and moved on to the next possible piece to the puzzle I could find at that age. The Internet really hadn't been invented by Al Gore Yet so we were so limited in those days to physical books, it was horrible!

;)

[we-R-one]

Hi Music,

I really appreciate your point of view and can in many ways relate to what you're saying. Just to be clear to the readers, I'm not picking one side over the other and I realize that's not what Music is implying either. I'm grateful for both perspectives as it aides in my growth and understanding. I can probably better address your point of view Music, more so than Dianetics as I've had no exposure to it's principles until now. Even then, my scope is limited because it takes time to absorb the methods and ideology behind it's makings.

Becoming heart-centered is key, I believe to our survival and ability to co-exist with one another and as one. I became aware of this only a year ago, when all the pieces to the puzzle of this particular aspect, started to come together for me, which was the inspiration for "The Solutions" thread. As mentioned before by David Icke, the Gnostic teachings even enforce this notion of humans being heart-centered in past writings, so this aligned with the thought process I had when I experienced the kundalini. The thought process was in the heart not the mind. To gain this understanding I had to go through 24 years of pain and abuse before I came to this conclusion. This was a spiritual awakening that wasn't realized until 21 years later! Had I done Dianetics would I have cleared this engram before and never coming to this understanding?

My journey to get to the point of where I am today was all organic. The star seed attributes started when I was about 5, though it's possible they could have been sooner, I just don't remember. I never studied under any one or anything and I have no formal training, I am self taught....at least in this lifetime. So when I look at the Dianetics aspect, and if I'm understanding correctly from what little I know, it's the quicker version for someone to obtain star seed attributes by clearing engrams so they can have more of the god-like abilities? So you cannot obtain these powers until you clear engrams, do I have that right? My concern would be that this isn't an organic approach and things could be missed that are of great value that one could only learn had they experienced the pain generated from the moment of the lesson rather than washing it away via an engram cleansing or whatever you want to call it. It was because of the "issues" put before me that I was able to understand and grow and become more heart-centered. You cannot avoid the pain! How can you be of service to others if have no understanding of the pain caused and felt by those experiencing the process of soul evolution? Frick I have so many questions that I haven't had a chance to ask Jiminii yet because I'm still trying to catch up on all the threads.

I'm probably the perfect person to look at dianetics because of my background of not being influenced by anyone's methodology and yet still being able to have obtained the so called "god-like" abilities without any teachings. I don't know why I can do these things...., an older soul from the future maybe?.... but I do feel that all have the ability at some point through the process of a natural evolution growth to obtain the same skill sets. If the point of Dianetics is to speed up the process, I do worry that the powers obtained can be abused by those who have yet to become heart-centered. It's kinda like the cart before the horse maybe? This is what I'm referring to when I say it's imperative that we get our spiritual houses in order first through being heart-centered. To obtain powers before hand could very well be catastrophic.

I'm having difficulty finding the words to express my thoughts and my response is probably premature since I've haven't read the book on Dianetics, but I felt the need to respond. I wish I had more time to explore this in depth and rapidly, in order to keep up with the flow of conversation of those who have already read. I'll do my best to take a look so I have a more well rounded viewpoint. I can understand your concerns Music and they should be taken into consideration by others in order to bring balance to the teachings of the likes of Dianetics or any other methodology that bypasses the organic state of being within the heart.

[Dorjezigzag]

Dianetics also seems to me to be heavy biased toward the Freudian school of psycho-analysis

Please can you explain the conclusion you have made because I would not equate The works of Sigmund Freud with Scientology.
Every spiritual person, including myself, likes to do a bit of Freud Bashing, but no one can deny he has had a huge influence on our culture.

The Latin for I is of course ego, in ancient Rome if you said ego you would be referring to your self. Other prominent figures such as Kant gave us an extended definition of this word, but the current concept of this word takes most influence from the coke fueled words of Sigmund Freud.

Freud was of course a psychologists, which is a word that comes from the word psyche


The basic meaning of the Greek word ψυχή (psūkhē) was "life" in the sense of "breath", formed from the verb ψύχω (psukhō, "to blow"). Derived meanings included "spirit", "soul", "ghost", and ultimately "self" in the sense of "conscious personality" or "psyche".

But Freud did not believe in a soul. His definition of the psyche was


• The id, which represents the instinctual drives of an individual and remains largely unconscious.
• The super-ego, which represents a person's conscience and their internalization of societal norms and morality.
• The ego, which is conscious and serves to integrate the drives of the id with the prohibitions of the super-ego. Freud believed this conflict to be at the heart of neurosis.

This is why Freud and Jung had there famous falling out because Jung believed that the unconscious was far more than just about instincts, that there was spiritual essence, that connected in a collective unconscious.
He believed in reincarnation, in other dimensions, in our god like potential. Fascinated with Esoteric texts from history and the early science of Alchemy. Therefore the Jungian branch has far more in common with scientology than Freud.

Freud essentially did not believe in the soul everything could be explained on a psychosexual instinctual basis. So why are you equating scientology with Freud that comes from totally the opposite sphere.

I don’t think some people on this forum are actually listening to those that are experienced in scientology are saying. No one on this forum to my awareness is saying that the current organisation of scientology is a good thing; they all seem to agree it has been subverted as happens to most large organisations. All they are saying is that the psychological techniques developed can be, if used properly, beneficial to the process of awareness of psyche, but psyche in the traditional sense of the word, not in the Freudian sense of the word.

If we have heart we should not deny another’s experience of psyche and their expression of it.

[GoodETxSG]

FYI, I certainly was not dissing Music or taking either side. I haven't seen Bill's Original Thread. I was just making an "off the top of the head" statement about the book I read decades ago.

I enjoy Music's posts. I enjoy everyones perspectives as long as they do not disrespect or step on another persons free will...

[Orion197]

While I highly respect Bill Ryan and the wonderful, positive contributions he has made, I as well do not resonate with Dianetics, Scientology and the rest. I just do not like any methodology that involved psychology -- I want to go way deeper than that down the rabbit hole to the core of it all which I would suggest is pure consciousness. My disclaimer is that I have never "looked into it" much further than a quick glance out of interest. I'm sure he might not resonate with some material that I resonate with but we are still expressions of the same consciousness having experiences that we, I would suggest, have chosen "ahead of time". We are here to do some good in the best and most effective way we can.
Now, since I do not resonate with the material, it doesn't mean it's wrong --- it just doesn't resonate with me in the state I am in right now in this period of "time".
However, out of all the sources of information out there, I will state that the top 2 on my short list are David Icke and Bill Ryan. I have the most trust in them and resonate with their efforts to do some good in this world.
So, I may have to take a closer look at this material to quench my appetite for information........

[music]

Thanks for your replies, I don't have time to address them all now because I need to go to work, but Dorjezigzag, auditing seems to me to be no more than the Freudian "talking cure", and the concepts of "engram", "chain", "lock", "secondary", and the way of dealing with these issues is pretty much in line with the Freudian method of psycho-analysis, except where the Freudian has a couch and their notepad as props between them and the patient, the auditor has their table and e-meter.

Where you may equate Scientology generally as being more in line with Jung (who I find insightful, but also flawed in respects), the only difference I see between Freudianism and Scientology really is the cosmology, and once we go down that road, I get serious alarm bells ringing. But out of respect for those who "believe", let's not go there hey?

Jung was right about the unresolved shadow aspect within us, and he blamed the rise of Nazi Germany on the mobilisation of the shadow. What this means is that it is very easy for those with higher spirit to quickly revert to base thought and act in an instant, but those who operate from a less evolved perspective find it hard to make that instant leap upwards. This may also be called the movement to the lowest common denominator.

Dianetics is pretty much "catharsis therapy", an adjunct of the talking cure. A common comment by people who left Scientology is the auditing process, while alluring at first, becomes more like being a hamster on a wheel, than an operating Thetan. Many people say they have never even met a true operating Thetan, and gave up hope of acquiring this legendary status after many years on the wheel. So, it is considered by many who have used it to be a never ending story, a quest for the Grail if you will. But as I have said here before, the Grail is the human heart, not a product of the human mind.

[donk]

What this means is that it is very easy for those with higher spirit to quickly revert to base thought and act in an instant, but those who operate from a less evolved perspective find it hard to make that instant leap upwards. This may also be called the movement to the lowest common denominator.

Heh...I was toying with this idea today: just a few bad apples spoil the bunch...but a few good ones?? Doesn't seem to work the other way around!

[music]

Donk, that is why true spiritual growth and awareness is so crucial. Work needs to be at a higher energetic level than the labyrinth of the human mind if we wish to effect change upward. The phenomena above, to me, is yet another symptom of energetic imbalance.

[Knowrainknowrainbows!]

What this means is that it is very easy for those with higher spirit to quickly revert to base thought and act in an instant, but those who operate from a less evolved perspective find it hard to make that instant leap upwards. This may also be called the movement to the lowest common denominator.

Heh...I was toying with this idea today: just a few bad apples spoil the bunch...but a few good ones?? Doesn't seem to work the other way around!

Maybe can't compare fruit or vegetables ...

But humankind's leadership is a different story.
Leadership of many by a few "good" individuals can influence and change the course of events (just as a poor/"bad" leadership does).

What the heart possess the life expresses;
KRKR
;-)

[GloriousPoetry]

Music I totally agree......energetically what runs our broken society is the thrust of the masculine polarity and a disconnection with the power of the feminine polarity. Perhaps someday as a human race we will be able to integrate ourselves in our world from a higher understanding......

All of the affinities in this world that hold beauty together in all of its divine levels are sensitive forms that are drawn from the imaginative body of love that remembers what informs heaven's hand to render all of the creative power that unveils itself inside this magical chamber......

[Sunny-side-up]

Hi music Love and Hugs to you.
You said:


sees as inferior human processes.

Bill, in your Q & A thread, you were asked how are we to believe that Dianetics is a valid tool for awareness when we look at the behaviour of L Ron Hubbard, who developed it? Your answer was along the lines of “many great men are flawed”. Interesting in light of my comments above is the fact that I have never once heard the poor behaviour of a woman excused with “many a great woman is flawed”, but I have heard the “flawed great man” excuse more times than I wish to recall. Is this excuse itself not a symptom of the over-dominance and control of masculine energy in our society? For me, awareness is about balance – the masculine and the feminine.

Your right about the quote, but I felt a tad sorry for Bill, the dear soul.
The term “many a great man is flawed” is an old one and today is not political or justly correct. Well raised point Music :)
New term “many a great being is flawed” even Bill at times, if only in a very, very small way :)

Hugs to you both

[Sirius White]

Dianetics, and Mrs's Relfes method of deprogramming is actually pretty useful and effective. Not all concepts in Scientology are bogus they do have SOME truths. Unfortunately distorted and used for dark purposes.

There are far more effective methods and ways of uncovering potential of mind though. I heard that Hubbard stole the idea from others at the time who were in contact with beings from elsewhere. Plus there is the connection with JPL, Jack parsons, and Crowley (and the foolish rituals Parsons and Hubbard were trying to accomplish).

[Carmody]

Dianetics, and Mrs's Relfes method of deprogramming is actually pretty useful and effective. Not all concepts in Scientology are bogus they do have SOME truths. Unfortunately distorted and used for dark purposes.

There are far more effective methods and ways of uncovering potential of mind though. I heard that Hubbard stole the idea from others at the time who were in contact with beings from elsewhere. Plus there is the connection with JPL, Jack parsons, and Crowley (and the foolish rituals Parsons and Hubbard were trying to accomplish).

I tend to leave my judgement at the door. What we have are stories. We weren't there. That's all. (I'm neither defending, nor detracting)

[CdnSirian]

It's true that if we weren't there, it's only a story. I grew up addicted to stories, because even though I went to lots of "theres", I couldn't tell yet if my own story was interesting. And I really just wanted to stay put sometimes.

Here we are now in 2013 - and man the stories are way too interesting most days!! :cantina:

I agree it's exasperating to hear once again "the man had flaws". And that system is patriarchal. Imbalance? So you pull back farther. Wider view. The planet, the feminine energies.

-SgC42_qdjs Leonard Cohen on LRH

Now we're at a different water mark. We weave our tapestry man/woman/white/gold/darker/Avalon (and a sax for Raf).

_ovwk77JRww

Sorry I have a hard time expressing myself and rely on other poets a lot.

[jiminii]

Hi Music,

I really appreciate your point of view and can in many ways relate to what you're saying. Just to be clear to the readers, I'm not picking one side over the other and I realize that's not what Music is implying either. I'm grateful for both perspectives as it aides in my growth and understanding. I can probably better address your point of view Music, more so than Dianetics as I've had no exposure to it's principles until now. Even then, my scope is limited because it takes time to absorb the methods and ideology behind it's makings.

Becoming heart-centered is key, I believe to our survival and ability to co-exist with one another and as one. I became aware of this only a year ago, when all the pieces to the puzzle of this particular aspect, started to come together for me, which was the inspiration for "The Solutions" thread. As mentioned before by David Icke, the Gnostic teachings even enforce this notion of humans being heart-centered in past writings, so this aligned with the thought process I had when I experienced the kundalini. The thought process was in the heart not the mind. To gain this understanding I had to go through 24 years of pain and abuse before I came to this conclusion. This was a spiritual awakening that wasn't realized until 21 years later! Had I done Dianetics would I have cleared this engram before and never coming to this understanding?

My journey to get to the point of where I am today was all organic. The star seed attributes started when I was about 5, though it's possible they could have been sooner, I just don't remember. I never studied under any one or anything and I have no formal training, I am self taught....at least in this lifetime. So when I look at the Dianetics aspect, and if I'm understanding correctly from what little I know, it's the quicker version for someone to obtain star seed attributes by clearing engrams so they can have more of the god-like abilities? So you cannot obtain these powers until you clear engrams, do I have that right? My concern would be that this isn't an organic approach and things could be missed that are of great value that one could only learn had they experienced the pain generated from the moment of the lesson rather than washing it away via an engram cleansing or whatever you want to call it. It was because of the "issues" put before me that I was able to understand and grow and become more heart-centered. You cannot avoid the pain! How can you be of service to others if have no understanding of the pain caused and felt by those experiencing the process of soul evolution? Frick I have so many questions that I haven't had a chance to ask Jiminii yet because I'm still trying to catch up on all the threads.

I'm probably the perfect person to look at dianetics because of my background of not being influenced by anyone's methodology and yet still being able to have obtained the so called "god-like" abilities without any teachings. I don't know why I can do these things...., an older soul from the future maybe?.... but I do feel that all have the ability at some point through the process of a natural evolution growth to obtain the same skill sets. If the point of Dianetics is to speed up the process, I do worry that the powers obtained can be abused by those who have yet to become heart-centered. It's kinda like the cart before the horse maybe? This is what I'm referring to when I say it's imperative that we get our spiritual houses in order first through being heart-centered. To obtain powers before hand could very well be catastrophic.

I'm having difficulty finding the words to express my thoughts and my response is probably premature since I've haven't read the book on Dianetics, but I felt the need to respond. I wish I had more time to explore this in depth and rapidly, in order to keep up with the flow of conversation of those who have already read. I'll do my best to take a look so I have a more well rounded viewpoint. I can understand your concerns Music and they should be taken into consideration by others in order to bring balance to the teachings of the likes of Dianetics or any other methodology that bypasses the organic state of being within the heart.

getting out of the body alone ... would make you clear ... but it would be a key'd out clear ..a key's out clear can be key'd in again because he hasn't erased the pictures .. all Buddhist are key'd out clears . I am not looking for key'd out clears .. I am looking for natural clears .. they do not have a recording system .. so they don't have to clear recordings that could have someones' words in the recording giving the person hypnotic commands so they have weird reactions to life situations

I am looking for star seeds ... I only use this scientology to get the definitions I needed to explain the creation of this universe and how these spirits created viewpoints that most people think are some kind of spirit around the head. then there is the other entity the GE that is a created thought form that grows and manages bodies ... I will give you a simple explanation

imagine you learned how to create a sun to get light and then an earth .. and then you want to create something that moves around and has intelligence.
so you start making one cell animals .. and of course all your friends are up there creating all their little creations .. then you realized it needed some kind of thought form similar to yourself ... so you make this ghost and try to copy what information you have into it so you can have something that is more life like to communicate .
you get really good at this until you have animals with emotions and every other thing that is here .. and you've made them VERY REAL and VERY life like ... BUT

you know it is still basically a robot ... so then you attach yourself to one of these and try to manage if from the outside ... and you can manage this creation of a human or dog or anything you would like to manage ... then you want to go one more step and decide to figure out a way to change your viewpoints where you can be looking with the eyes you created in this human and its ears and all the sensations a body can feel ..

but during all this creation spirit beings found they can hurt other spirit beings unintentionally .. so they can get moody and decide to do a revenge to let the other person know what it feels like and then you get in wars and then you learn how to trap spirits in these bodies .and eventually you arrive here ...

now ... you still have battles and you learn how to trap the most powerful and you really have to do it if you want to win the battle ... so you can't kill a spirit being .. but you can trap him ... so he is not stopping you from wining the battle ... it doesn't matter what reason . you are here ...

so this LRH comes home from the war and finds his son is all messed up and does these technology he may have learned in asia dianetics because his wife got pregnant from a psychiatrist and tried many times to abort the child ... so he is trying to remove these engrams so his son can have a better life ...

this could be one of the reason's he created scientology ... but he was learning how to repair a meat body ... that is what dianetics is ... it is not designed to repair the mind though in the engrams they found the words said could act like hypnotic commands ... so then it goes into past lives .. he finds that he must run this to past lives or they won't erase .. so that is when he has to change it to scientology

I am just looking for star seeds .. and show them the basic tools of thought that I learned to make my miracles ... so maybe they can help fix this planet faster

I never did dianetics .. I am natural clear ... means no recording system .. so there are no engrams to erase in me.
I believe the star seeds are natural clears too .. so they will not need to do dianetics either.
in fact if you are Natural clear you can not do dianetiics at all ..you have to get up to OT 5 which allows and OT to repair his body.
and it is amazing stuff ... a guy goes in weighing 250 pounds and comes out 20 minutes later weighing 170 pounds
and then one goes in there weighing 250 pounds and comes out weighing 250 pounds and someone asked him, "hey why didn't your weight go away ??? "
and he answers and says "I like being fat"

and that is OT V

now I did all my miracles and never got any processing from Scientology ,,,, none .. I did it by reading the books and practicing how to make my thoughts work

now inelia has done things that Bill hasn't even put on the interview because it was too far out to believe
well I have the same as hers ... I have so many impossible things happen on the spur of the moment who is going to believe them

I would hitch hike a ride to san francisco and stop at a bar somewhere along the way ... and ask some girls where I can sleep.
they take me to a place where they are building houses ... and I sleep there.
in the morning I wake up in the corner and sit up like a buddhist and get some idea of running some kind of flow down to my neck

these 2 girls come in and looked shocked ... I said, "what's wrong?"
both of them said they can't see my head ... there is only some silver in the middle.
i said, "oh I know what that is .." and I pulled it down to my waist and then they couldn't see me from waist up.

these are impossible for others to believe .. but they happen again and again and again ...

I never once asked anyone to do dianetics .. it is totally up to you and it is not even my ententiion
and I never asked anyone to do scientology here too ...

I am looking for those few millions that I know are here .. and I will try to get them to realize what they are and what they can do ...

it they can't it is ok ... but some will be able to do it ... I am only giving my own experiences that I learned testing out the data I read

jim

[we-R-one]

getting out of the body alone ... would make you clear ... but it would be a key'd out clear ..a key's out clear can be key'd in again because he hasn't erased the pictures .. all Buddhist are key'd out clears . I am not looking for key'd out clears .. I am looking for natural clears .. they do not have a recording system .. so they don't have to clear recordings that could have someones' words in the recording giving the person hypnotic commands so they have weird reactions to life situations

I am looking for star seeds ... I only use this scientology to get the definitions I needed to explain the creation of this universe and how these spirits created viewpoints that most people think are some kind of spirit around the head. then there is the other entity the GE that is a created thought form that grows and manages bodies ... I will give you a simple explanation

jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for such a detailed response. I'm still trying to catch up on your posts to get a better understanding of all that you share. I've tried to hold back from asking questions as I realize maybe they'll already be answered if I just continue reading further. So let me ask you this....though I do fit most of the characterizations of a star seed, I have experienced past lives and have memories from such as far back as the stone age. Most come in forms of emotions though some have been in pictures such as the life as a stone age female warrior. If I'm understanding the term correctly, I do "feel" clear. It does not appear that I have any karma left to contend with. As I watch others spin around in karma disarray, nothing seems to touch me in the way I see what others must contend with on a daily basis. The last issue I appeared to have was taken care of in 1990 when I experienced a kundalini. I equate this to emotional clearing which I believe is the same as when you refer to someone having cleared themselves. So it's possible that one can get to this point of clearing via different methods whether organic or through dianetics. The metaphysical abilities that I possess, started at a young age before you could say I was completely cleared, so how does that fit in to what you know? So if I understand what you're saying, you seem to be of the belief that you cannot obtain these "god-like" abilities until you are clear. And what I'm saying is I could perform some of these abilities before I was cleared if I'm actually clear in the first place like I think I am. Most of these abilities utilized the power of intention with the exception of shaking someone's hand and being able to read their thoughts. All seem to deal with the manipulation of energy which is something I understood at a very young age...it was never questioned, I just did things as if they were natural and then went about my business as if nothing happened. I have more questions, but maybe this isn't the right thread and I don't want to take away from Music's posts or topic.

[mischief]

"...... A common comment by people who left Scientology is the auditing process, while alluring at first, becomes more like being a hamster on a wheel, than an operating Thetan. Many people say they have never even met a true operating Thetan, and gave up hope of acquiring this legendary status after many years on the wheel. So, it is considered by many who have used it to be a never ending story, a quest for the Grail if you will. But as I have said here before, the Grail is the human heart, not a product of the human mind.[/QUOTE]"

Hi Music,
I am one of the people you are talking about in this part of your post.
I was a staff member for 17 years and have been out for almost 18 years mainly because I too did not see the vast improvements I was expecting to see.
Very bewildering and disappointing.

This was in an 'official church' not the Rons' org, that Bill has told you about, so I cant makes statements as to what is achieveable in one of the 'Rons' Orgs'.
Apparently there is a big difference in how they are run and the results that are produced- I only know the so called official version, which I found to be very traumatising rather than empowering.

I have only just started looking at WHY this was so in my dealing with my PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder), that was caused by this. I have only just recently allowed myself to recognise there is a situation that needs addressing with this.

One of the things I found which may be pertinent to your above post is, Hubbard told people NOT to demonstrate whatever abilities they regained ...for whatever reason.
I feel that the end result of this is those abilities never got to 'settle in'. It takes time to re learn something just as it takes time to learn something new.
An old saying- 'You lose what you dont use'.

There are many stories of those who were in Scn in the very early days of people who did exhibit 'OT' abilities.
Sometimes, even I can do some things that I feel are quite fantastic even though I never did get to do the 'OT' levels.
Not to try to encourage you to go where you would rather not, each persons journey is unique and each path is ones own, I wish you well in yours.

[jiminii]

getting out of the body alone ... would make you clear ... but it would be a key'd out clear ..a key's out clear can be key'd in again because he hasn't erased the pictures .. all Buddhist are key'd out clears . I am not looking for key'd out clears .. I am looking for natural clears .. they do not have a recording system .. so they don't have to clear recordings that could have someones' words in the recording giving the person hypnotic commands so they have weird reactions to life situations

I am looking for star seeds ... I only use this scientology to get the definitions I needed to explain the creation of this universe and how these spirits created viewpoints that most people think are some kind of spirit around the head. then there is the other entity the GE that is a created thought form that grows and manages bodies ... I will give you a simple explanation

jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for such a detailed response. I'm still trying to catch up on your posts to get a better understanding of all that you share. I've tried to hold back from asking questions as I realize maybe they'll already be answered if I just continue reading further. So let me ask you this....though I do fit most of the characterizations of a star seed, I have experienced past lives and have memories from such as far back as the stone age. Most come in forms of emotions though some have been in pictures such as the life as a stone age female warrior. If I'm understanding the term correctly, I do "feel" clear. It does not appear that I have any karma left to contend with. As I watch others spin around in karma disarray, nothing seems to touch me in the way I see what others must contend with on a daily basis. The last issue I appeared to have was taken care of in 1990 when I experienced a kundalini. I equate this to emotional clearing which I believe is the same as when you refer to someone having cleared themselves. So it's possible that one can get to this point of clearing via different methods whether organic or through dianetics. The metaphysical abilities that I possess, started at a young age before you could say I was completely cleared, so how does that fit in to what you know? So if I understand what you're saying, you seem to be of the belief that you cannot obtain these "god-like" abilities until you are clear. And what I'm saying is I could perform some of these abilities before I was cleared if I'm actually clear in the first place like I think I am. Most of these abilities utilized the power of intention with the exception of shaking someone's hand and being able to read their thoughts. All seem to deal with the manipulation of energy which is something I understood at a very young age...it was never questioned, I just did things as if they were natural and then went about my business as if nothing happened. I have more questions, but maybe this isn't the right thread and I don't want to take away from Music's posts or topic.

she is right you don't have to do dianetics
and I don't recommend it ...
old dianetics took a long time to do running over and over and over the engram to erase it

new dianetics takes you to the thought itself ...you run the incidents to the first time it happened and then ask "what was the thought that started it"
the thought might be something like "if I get too close I may fall over this clift"
and doing it this way clears it instantly and the person gets a cognition like "now I know why I get all these feelings when I am close to clifts"

the needle floats showing it is erased
but it does prove one thing ... everything that happens to you or with you .. come from your own thoughts or in agreement with someone else's thoughts

and everything in this universe is created from thoughts

I think I have to create a new thread and look for all the posts I did and put them on this post called

"the impossible experiences for anyone to believe by jiminii"

as for clear ,.. somewhere there is a scientology glossary ... read the definition of clear
see if it is you?

jim

I am going to copy this over to the LRH thread and answer the rest of your questions

[jiminii]

getting out of the body alone ... would make you clear ... but it would be a key'd out clear ..a key's out clear can be key'd in again because he hasn't erased the pictures .. all Buddhist are key'd out clears . I am not looking for key'd out clears .. I am looking for natural clears .. they do not have a recording system .. so they don't have to clear recordings that could have someones' words in the recording giving the person hypnotic commands so they have weird reactions to life situations

I am looking for star seeds ... I only use this scientology to get the definitions I needed to explain the creation of this universe and how these spirits created viewpoints that most people think are some kind of spirit around the head. then there is the other entity the GE that is a created thought form that grows and manages bodies ... I will give you a simple explanation

jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for such a detailed response. I'm still trying to catch up on your posts to get a better understanding of all that you share. I've tried to hold back from asking questions as I realize maybe they'll already be answered if I just continue reading further. So let me ask you this....though I do fit most of the characterizations of a star seed, I have experienced past lives and have memories from such as far back as the stone age. Most come in forms of emotions though some have been in pictures such as the life as a stone age female warrior. If I'm understanding the term correctly, I do "feel" clear. It does not appear that I have any karma left to contend with. As I watch others spin around in karma disarray, nothing seems to touch me in the way I see what others must contend with on a daily basis. The last issue I appeared to have was taken care of in 1990 when I experienced a kundalini. I equate this to emotional clearing which I believe is the same as when you refer to someone having cleared themselves. So it's possible that one can get to this point of clearing via different methods whether organic or through dianetics. The metaphysical abilities that I possess, started at a young age before you could say I was completely cleared, so how does that fit in to what you know? So if I understand what you're saying, you seem to be of the belief that you cannot obtain these "god-like" abilities until you are clear. And what I'm saying is I could perform some of these abilities before I was cleared if I'm actually clear in the first place like I think I am. Most of these abilities utilized the power of intention with the exception of shaking someone's hand and being able to read their thoughts. All seem to deal with the manipulation of energy which is something I understood at a very young age...it was never questioned, I just did things as if they were natural and then went about my business as if nothing happened. I have more questions, but maybe this isn't the right thread and I don't want to take away from Music's posts or topic.

look in the last LRH post I made
jim

[music]

we-R-one, many, many people have "god-like" abilities, hardly surprising since we are all "God". And yes, pain is a good teacher, especially once we have moved beyond it. The journey is as important as the destination. Sure, as GoodeTXSG says, the techniques are a tool that can be used, and then the person moves on to the next piece of the puzzle. Used within an organisational framework though, we need to be aware that the Freudian "talking cure" and "catharsis therapy" are administered by people who belong to a professional body, are constrained by ethics and codes of conduct/practice, and are insured. All these and other things society has put in place to safeguard the vulnerable patient who is wide open to abuse and manipulation, yet dianetics being so similar to this approach has no such safeguards. While I am not accusing all auditors of being predatory or manipulative, the odds are there will be some, and there is little within the Scientology framework to ensure protection from the bad egg, or the rotten apple. Some will say, but auditors are "clear", they are perfect, but please, don't bother. We all see examples of people who through some practice or another should be "clear" that practice abuse, and dianetics has nothing that I can see that elevates it to some exalted place in the therapeutic or spiritual hierarchy, and no magic wand to confer protection from abuse.

[we-R-one]

Hi Music,
Thanks for your response. FWIW, I used the phrase "god-like abilities" as that's what Jiminii called them; I was paraphrasing so he would know what I was referring to as would the reader who had read several of his past posts. So in using the term it wasn't meant that those who have "god-like abilities" are better than others or that there are only a select few.

I do share your concerns, having been able to clear myself naturally; those who don't understand might find themselves in a quandry should they come across the wrong auditor. I still can't get past the fact that using the process of dianetics is cheating yourself out of an amazing experience/realization....I see the value, BUT, something instinctual says all may not be right by following this procedure. Maybe in time as I learn more I could change my mind...it's possible dianetics could be better for someone who is further along in their soul growth to finish the job? I dunno.....I feel all the more wiser for doing it on my own and had I had dianetics available to me at the time, surely I would have robbed myself of an extraordinary experience, even though it was quite painful.

Something else that crossed my mind....20+ years later when I began to understand that I had experienced a kundalini, I felt in addition to the emotional clearing, that it was quite possible that within this moment I had created a template. Supposedly star seeds come to earth to create templates for various reasons...don't know if it's true or not,, just sayin.......so had I used dianetics, the opportunity to create the template would have been destroyed from what I can tell, if that's what some are here to do.

EDIT TO ADD:
What the h$ll.... I guess none of this should really matter as it's just an illusion anyways, right? lol

[Bill Ryan]

there is little within the Scientology framework to ensure protection from the bad egg, or the rotten apple.

Music, here are some direct questions for you:

1) Re the above quote from your post above, are you talking about


The Church of Scientology?
The Free Zone?
Ron's Org?

2) On what do you base your knowledge and expertise? :)

3) Do you really know what 'Clear' means? (I explained in some detail on another thread. Please feed it back to me to check your understanding.)

4) On what is your assumption based that there are no codes of conduct? (There are, btw, in certain organizations, and they are clearly stated and defined. Ron's Org has on one or two occasions expelled people who have failed to meet technical or ethical standards. That's why the Ron's Org Committee (http://ronsorg,com) was formed.)

5) Do you know how much you know, and how much you don't know? (Please answer this question. You're grandstanding and holding forth as if you know a very great deal. I do not think that you do.)

[PurpleLama]

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_crow&sa=U&ei=nC-nUZntKIqm9ATam4CYBQ&ved=0CBwQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGxxcVp-RcOhoLorfYW2mW1iftPHg

[Rich]

Not quite sure what Jiminiis message to us is.



5) Do you know how much you know, and how much you don't know? (Please answer this question.

:P

very interesting question...
but how can someone answer that. =)))

[Finefeather]

Here is an interesting video...straight from the mouths of ex 'Scientologist High Ups'...all well advanced and with 20 and even 30 years experience.
So my first thought was that they would know a lot more about it that you would, Bill, because you have said that you did not join Scientology ever? So if this is so...that you are not an insider :) then they would be the ones to listen to and not you? with all due respects that is..

The aim here being to highlight the 'tech' which I assume...because I really do not know...is the same or at least similar to Ron's Org and the Free zoners.
The impression I get is that Ron's Org broke away from the Genuine Scientology Church because of infiltration from dark forces...but does that not mean that the 'tech' is still the same? and if so then this video has some interesting things to consider IMO...
Take care
Ray

edit: You might want to pay careful attention to what they say...some interesting little comments which mean more than you might think.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C5j63DsmnQ&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

[Bill Ryan]

So my first thought was that they would know a lot more about it that you would, Bill, because you have said that you did not join Scientology ever?

Yes, they will certainly know a lot more about the day-to-day workings of the Church of Scientology than myself. Much of that is about management and politics (with a small 'p'), and tons of dramatic history that I have never been very interested in. (Think of a very nasty global corporation, like Monsanto. There's a difference between the executives and the scientists.)

But I very much doubt they know more about the 'technology' (and its many and extensive non-Church advances) than I do.

They also may or may not know the bigger picture about how the Church was taken over, and why. (Probably not, in my estimation.)

Don't misunderstand (or under-estimate) the ability and capability of the folks in Ron's Org. There are highly trained, highly professional people who have devoted their lives to the subject and work 18 hours a day, 6 days a week, with a two week vacation once a year (really). Just because they work from home -- rather than from a glitzy multi-million dollar building -- doesn't mean that they're not more able, productive and knowledgable in very many ways than anyone else in any ways connected with the subject.

[Sunny-side-up]

Hello Bill or a Mod, Love and Light.

Was going to read the very first post of yours here Bill with all links and info but it's gone :(

I might have saved them already but was wondering where they wen't ?

Hugs all!

[Bill Ryan]

Hello Bill or a Mod, Love and Light.

Was going to read the very first post of yours here Bill with all links and info but it's gone :(

I might have saved them already but was wondering where they wen't ?

Hugs all!

Wrong thread! :)

This (I think) is what you may be looking for:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59276-Q-and-A-about-Ron-Hubbard-Bill-Robertson-Scientology-the-Free-Zone-Ron-s-Org-Planet-Earth.-Jim-and-the-Future&p=679572#post679572

[Hervé]

[...]

The aim here being to highlight the 'tech' which I assume...because I really do not know...is the same or at least similar to Ron's Org and the Free zoners.

[...]

One thing that needs to be understood about the "official" (not genuine anymore) "church" of Scientology is that, once taken over, it started applying "Black Dianetics" and "Reverse Scientology."

Accordingly, like any tools, Dianetics and Scientology "Tech" can be used either way, constructive or destructive. The "church" started to use their tech tools in a destructive way, basically, so that no actual OTs -- who could improve things around -- are actually produced anymore..

[Finefeather]

[...]

The aim here being to highlight the 'tech' which I assume...because I really do not know...is the same or at least similar to Ron's Org and the Free zoners.

[...]

One thing that needs to be understood about the "official" (not genuine anymore) "church" of Scientology is that, once taken over, it started applying "Black Dianetics" and "Reverse Scientology."

Accordingly, like any tools, Dianetics and Scientology "Tech" can be used either way, constructive or destructive. The "church" started to use their tech tools in a destructive way, basically, so that no actual OTs -- who could improve things around -- are actually produced anymore..
Hi Amzer
I think you just love to play with words and you also think that a lot of people are stupid and cannot think for themselves.
I have neither the time nor inclination to sit down and point out some blatant errors...never mind personal delusions which some people have displayed...in the defense of Scientology.
With all due respects...because I believe each must find his/her own way...it makes very little difference what you or I or anyone says about any subject...if the audience does not get it...it does not necessarily mean they are lacking in cognitive skills...it might means the 'teacher' has failed to convince them...and that could be for a number of reasons...only one of them being...that it fails the logic test.

Take care
Ray

[Hervé]

[...]
I have neither the time nor inclination to sit down and point out some blatant errors...

[...]
Ray

Then, why bother mentioning it and leaving it as an innuendo?

[greybeard]

While this may be off topic I would like to point out tactfully that all religions or spiritual organisations are divisive.
You dont need one to grow, evolve, spiritually.
I do accept that in the early stages it may well be beneficial to be part of something to give direction.
However the Buddha’s advice to put no head above your own applies not only to an individual guru/teacher but organisations also.
If its enlightenment that is sought---all belief systems and concepts are to be released, anything that is an obstacle to enlightenment must go.
No complicated technique is required.
Of course each to their own.

Chris

[bruno dante]

we-R-one, many, many people have "god-like" abilities, hardly surprising since we are all "God". And yes, pain is a good teacher, especially once we have moved beyond it. The journey is as important as the destination. Sure, as GoodeTXSG says, the techniques are a tool that can be used, and then the person moves on to the next piece of the puzzle. Used within an organisational framework though, we need to be aware that the Freudian "talking cure" and "catharsis therapy" are administered by people who belong to a professional body, are constrained by ethics and codes of conduct/practice, and are insured. All these and other things society has put in place to safeguard the vulnerable patient who is wide open to abuse and manipulation, yet dianetics being so similar to this approach has no such safeguards. While I am not accusing all auditors of being predatory or manipulative, the odds are there will be some, and there is little within the Scientology framework to ensure protection from the bad egg, or the rotten apple. Some will say, but auditors are "clear", they are perfect, but please, don't bother. We all see examples of people who through some practice or another should be "clear" that practice abuse, and dianetics has nothing that I can see that elevates it to some exalted place in the therapeutic or spiritual hierarchy, and no magic wand to confer protection from abuse.


Hi Music,

First off, I love your avatar! Burlesque spirituality! How wonderful!

I might argue that that those mainstream professionals you speak of are also constrained creatively:) In my experience, anyway, professional organizations and bureaucracies, their rules and regulations and so forth, are designed to subtly discourage any real advancement. I've found that red tape often masquerades as "safety" or "protection" for the patient or whomever, when it is really designed into the system as a restrictor ie: " you're getting way too close to the truth! wait! let me protect you!" A metaphor may be how the wonderful and concerned men and women in the FDA valiantly protect us U.S. citizens against those ghastly and harmful nutritional supplements;)

I *do* respect your concern for the safety and the well-being of patients, don't get me wrong. I don't find you to be holding forth or grandstanding (a little excessive Bill. words better suited for Jiminii, I think:wink: I think you're maybe seeing a passive-aggressive swipe here where there isn't one. my opinion, anyway) I think it's healthy for the forum to have a devil's advocate position, just so long as it doesn't deliberately attempt to derail it's opposing position. And this being a separate thread and all, I see none of that.

I would like to know, through Bill or Music or whomever: what *are* the precautions taken by RonsOrg or Freezone to ensure patient/auditor ethics? I'm admittedly very ignorant about the whole thing. And open-minded, I should point out, as I see a wealth of value in many of LRH's stuff. But this is something that hasn't been addressed in all of the related threads, and I find it to be a valid concern.

[jiminii]

"...... A common comment by people who left Scientology is the auditing process, while alluring at first, becomes more like being a hamster on a wheel, than an operating Thetan. Many people say they have never even met a true operating Thetan, and gave up hope of acquiring this legendary status after many years on the wheel. So, it is considered by many who have used it to be a never ending story, a quest for the Grail if you will. But as I have said here before, the Grail is the human heart, not a product of the human mind."

Hi Music,
I am one of the people you are talking about in this part of your post.
I was a staff member for 17 years and have been out for almost 18 years mainly because I too did not see the vast improvements I was expecting to see.
Very bewildering and disappointing.

This was in an 'official church' not the Rons' org, that Bill has told you about, so I cant makes statements as to what is achieveable in one of the 'Rons' Orgs'.
Apparently there is a big difference in how they are run and the results that are produced- I only know the so called official version, which I found to be very traumatising rather than empowering.

I have only just started looking at WHY this was so in my dealing with my PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder), that was caused by this. I have only just recently allowed myself to recognise there is a situation that needs addressing with this.

One of the things I found which may be pertinent to your above post is, Hubbard told people NOT to demonstrate whatever abilities they regained ...for whatever reason.
I feel that the end result of this is those abilities never got to 'settle in'. It takes time to re learn something just as it takes time to learn something new.
An old saying- 'You lose what you dont use'.

There are many stories of those who were in Scn in the very early days of people who did exhibit 'OT' abilities.
Sometimes, even I can do some things that I feel are quite fantastic even though I never did get to do the 'OT' levels.
Not to try to encourage you to go where you would rather not, each persons journey is unique and each path is ones own, I wish you well in yours.[/QUOTE]


jim starts here


this is what I saw too .... many people working getting nowhere ... for years
then go to one auditor from freezone a class 12 auditor off loaded from the Flag land base and in such a short time he opens me up ... and I really start flying in a new direction from that time on ... I've had others on this site PM me and in the middle of the conversation I am getting cognitions ... blowing out of me with huge yawns ....
that old Church of Scientology COS was setup by LRH before he died to prevent anyone from the cabal getting any of the abilities ...

I am just lucky I found cathy and found out about base 2

jim

[Hervé]

[...]

One of the things I found which may be pertinent to your above post is, Hubbard told people NOT to demonstrate whatever abilities they regained ...for whatever reason.

[...]

This is most probably the reason:


[...]

Of interest: I know, quite well, the one person in the original 1970s SRI RV research team who was more able than Ingo Swann. This person is still alive, and was a close friend of Ingo till he left us a few months ago.

Back in the project, this person irritated Ingo greatly after they and Ingo has been singled out to take part in a kind of psychic tug-of-war -- which took place not at the SRI, but at Livermore Labs. The 'contest' was to see which one of the two could bend a laser beam one way, or the other. (Ingo to the left, my friend to the right.)

My friend won, and Ingo was pissed. My friend then realized that he had better start playing really dumb -- or he'd end up working for the government. He carefully flunked every subsequent test, and eventually dropped out of the program. There's smart for you.

:)

[...]

[music]

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_crow&sa=U&ei=nC-nUZntKIqm9ATam4CYBQ&ved=0CBwQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGxxcVp-RcOhoLorfYW2mW1iftPHg

Now that is a textbook example of passive aggressive, as far as my understanding of the term goes, my friend. If you have something to say, as I just did, please say it, and don't hide it behind a link.

Love and blessings to you.

[music]

there is little within the Scientology framework to ensure protection from the bad egg, or the rotten apple.

Music, here are some direct questions for you:

1) Re the above quote from your post above, are you talking about


The Church of Scientology?
The Free Zone?
Ron's Org?

2) On what do you base your knowledge and expertise? :)

3) Do you really know what 'Clear' means? (I explained in some detail on another thread. Please feed it back to me to check your understanding.)

4) On what is your assumption based that there are no codes of conduct? (There are, btw, in certain organizations, and they are clearly stated and defined. Ron's Org has on one or two occasions expelled people who have failed to meet technical or ethical standards. That's why the Ron's Org Committee (http://ronsorg,com) was formed.)

5) Do you know how much you know, and how much you don't know? (Please answer this question. You're grandstanding and holding forth as if you know a very great deal. I do not think that you do.)

Hi Bill, sorry for the delay in my reply, I was camped out in the bush for a few days working.

Re "Clear": There are differing meanings of clear, firstly a snapshot of Hubbard’s initial meaning (Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health, in 1950):


A clear, for instance, has complete recall of everything which has ever happened to him or anything he has ever studied. He does mental computations, such as those of chess, for example, which a normal would do in a half an hour, in ten or fifteen seconds. He does not think “vocally” but spontaneously. There are no demon circuits in his mind except those which it might amuse him to set up -- and break down again -- to care for various approaches to living. He is entirely self-determined. And his creative imagination is high. He can do a swift study of anything within his intellectual capacity, which is inherent, and the study would be the equivalent to him of a year or two of training when he was “normal.” His vigor, persistence and tenacity to life are very much higher than anyone has thought possible.

My younger brother could do complex mathematical equations in his head without computation – the answers just rose up within his mind within seconds. He failed mathematics at school though, because the computation happened at the sub-conscious level, so he could never show “how” he got the answer right, which made up at least 66% of the marks awarded in the school system he was in. My father could play multiple games of chess in his head against FIDE rated masters, making his moves spontaneously. Neither of these two people had any exposure to dianetics. What Hubbard is explaining here is an innate human ability, but one that is hidden in most (the abilities of "Operating Thetans" are also innate human abilities, and I know/have known people with all of the original claimed OT abilities to a greater or lesser extent). I am not claiming any special abilities for myself.

I believe the following pretty much sums up the current mainstream Scientology definition (http://www.whatisscientology.org/html/Part03/Chp13/pg0245.html)


The state of Clear has often been described in Dianetics and Scientology. It has always been understated. Time has revealed that Clear is far above anything one had dreamed of previously. Here is a being who has forever vanquished his own reactive mind, the source of man’s misery. He has a very high degree of personal integrity and honesty, and is living proof that man is basically good. His own basic beingness returns and his own personality flourishes. When a person becomes Clear, he loses all the fears, anxieties and irrational thoughts that were held down by pain in the reactive mind and, in short, regains himself. Without a reactive mind, an individual is much, much more himself. Until an individual is cleared, no matter how able he has become by virtue of earlier auditing, it is inevitable that he will sooner or later sink back into the reactive mind. That is why clearing is vital. Clear is total eradication of the individual’s own reactive mind. Thus, Clear is a stable state, not subject to relapse.

From these two definitions, I would relate these to the condition of a person being “totally within their power”, at least for the greater part of their day to day life. There are some, in my opinion, who are totally in their power all the time, these people could be called avatars, or ascended masters, or whatever phrase we like, but they generally don’t remain incarnate (in physical reality) once they have truly achieved this state, because they have learned all they need to learn in this lifetime. They may linger to share their “truth”, but once that is done, there is no point for that energy to remain in that body. My definition of clear would include an appreciation of our essential nature, which to me is related to love and its infinite expression. We are clear, in my view, when we act solely from the high heart, because within this space, we cannot be controlled, and we can only do what is conducive to the greater common good (when our will and the will of the universe align...no more distortion, our earthly nature becomes a pure rendering of our essential nature). In this space we are connected to that which is beyond all dimensional space and time, so yes, we have access to all past and future events and knowing, and we can effect or foresee events in physical reality. There is cross over here, obviously, with the concept of Operating Thetan, and we see these concepts exist across multiple traditions, and we see that there is nothing new under the sun. This godlike state of pure being is pretty rare. The caveat here is that this is merely how I see it to be.

Finally, re “clear”: Bill, I am not your child or student, so when you say “Please feed it back to me to check your understanding”, please be aware that this is not the way to engage me. If you should wish to relate the Ron’s org definition of “clear” here of your own free will, however, I would be more than happy to read it.



Re bad eggs: true, this is based mostly on the multiple stories of abuse of power from the early days til now in mainstream Scientology, and the ease with which it seems to have occurred, and the way perpetrators were apparently acting with impunity. Leads to ...


Ron’s org committee: Self-auditing or regulating of an organisation, yes, if this is this done well it would a wonderful thing, if not done well, it would be like the police investigating the police. I have no experience to comment on how this self-auditing process is carried out within Ron’s org, it could be wonderful, and I hope it is, but I add the above police investigating police analogy as a caveat.

Re: Knowing (or not)

Bill, it is one of the paradoxes of existence that we hold two states simultaneously: we don’t know as much as we think we know – we know much more than we think we know.

Or

We are nothing but all knowing – but we all know nothing

When the Zen master asks the aspirant the question “Who are you?”, then returns some time later to receive the answer “I don’t know”, the master praises the aspirant, but then walks away to leave the aspirant contemplating further.

Knowing comes from the journey, Bill. There are many journeys, but my ego will not engage with you to recount my own so you may judge it valid or wanting. Better than judgement is this: know a man/woman by his/her words as they are received by both the head and the heart, and know that our own words will be likewise received – with knowing, but without judgement.

I will, however, recount something small of my journey that doesn’t exalt me, yet gives an idea of where I come from. My mother lived a life of good and humble awareness, much as many anonymous folk do – going about their day to day lives, quietly working in their own way to further the common good in alignment with personal and universal will. In fact, one of my greatest life lessons was to learn not to see her as a "saint" or an "Angel", but to return her humanity to her. To see her human flaws (which we all have) merely accentuated her sublime beauty, and placed that beauty within my own reach. This is a story I have related before here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34553-Lesson-in-Compassion)


When I was 12 or so, I was at the train station waiting to get the train to school, and two of my friends said “Let’s go tease the old drunk who sleeps under the bridge". It didn’t sound in the least bit interesting to me, but I tagged along anyway. As they were yelling things to the man, my mother, who had caught the later bus and was heading to cross the bridge to her work, walked by and saw us.

All day at school, I was worried about what would happen when I got home. She would be very disappointed and upset with me. When she arrived home from work, however, she was quiet on the matter. Must be waiting for dinner I thought. Dinner came and went, still with no word. Hmmm, making me sweat no doubt, it’ll come after dinner. Eventually I went to bed, with no word from mum, and I began to think maybe she hadn’t seen me, and there was going to no punishment?

In the morning at breakfast, and as I got dressed for school, mum still said nothing, and I decided I’d been right – luckily, she hadn’t seen me. As I walked out the door to get the bus, however, she called me back. In her hands she held a parcel wrapped in brown paper, and tied with string. “These are some old clothes of your fathers. Do you know the old man that sleeps under the bridge?” I nodded. “Could you please give these to him, it’s starting to get cold and he will need them.” I grabbed the parcel and headed out, but mum called out “and don’t just throw them under the bridge – I want you to hand them to him and tell him what they are.”

So, being a curious sort, as I handed the man the clothes, I asked him why he slept under the bridge (as she knew I would), and received my lesson in compassion (as she knew I would). The man had been a fairly successful sort, had a home and a family, until his wife and children were killed, ironically, by a drunk driver. He turned to drink, lost his job, then his house, and had ended up there, under the bridge.

I made sure nobody teased him again, at least if I was around.

Love and blessings to you, Bill.

[jiminii]

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_crow&sa=U&ei=nC-nUZntKIqm9ATam4CYBQ&ved=0CBwQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGxxcVp-RcOhoLorfYW2mW1iftPHg

Now that is a textbook example of passive aggressive, as far as my understanding of the term goes, my friend. If you have something to say, as I just did, please say it, and don't hide it behind a link.

Love and blessings to you.

we don't need to be hitting on each other ... it is non productive ... I will tell you what has happened in the few days i am here ... even with all the counter stuff going ... we are learning something ...

I was in communication with someone from free zone ... .. and in the middle of the communication I started to see something .I started yawning these huge yawns again.. and I saw that LRH saw how church of scientology was infiltrated with sleeper children that would wake up and take on the post they needed to take over the Church of Scientology from the inside. LRH set it up to divert and split the church to protect if from the illuminate getting any of the OT levels ..the levels they have now are only repair levels ... up ot 8 .. just cleans their past upsets and disagreements .. not powerful OT levels ... those are being protected by a time portal in the devils triangle and another in the pacific that is the dragons triangle ... they can see what is happening 20 years before it happens ..and stop anything that would hurt the planet ... to go through that time portal you have to be able to move the body with the spirit through to 20 years in the past ... and the reptilians have no ability to do this ... they would kill the body trying ..
the theta level of the planet is past the make break point means it can only go up from here ...

take it a bit more easy on each other ok ???

jim

[gripreaper]

Music, here are some direct questions for you: Do you really know what 'Clear' means? (I explained in some detail on another thread. Please feed it back to me to check your understanding.)

Re "Clear": There are differing meanings of clear, firstly a snapshot of Hubbard’s initial meaning (Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health, in 1950):


A clear, for instance, has complete recall of everything which has ever happened to him or anything he has ever studied. He does mental computations, such as those of chess, for example, which a normal would do in a half an hour, in ten or fifteen seconds. He does not think “vocally” but spontaneously. There are no demon circuits in his mind except those which it might amuse him to set up -- and break down again -- to care for various approaches to living. He is entirely self-determined. And his creative imagination is high. He can do a swift study of anything within his intellectual capacity, which is inherent, and the study would be the equivalent to him of a year or two of training when he was “normal.” His vigor, persistence and tenacity to life are very much higher than anyone has thought possible.

From these two definitions, I would relate these to the condition of a person being “totally within their power”, at least for the greater part of their day to day life. There are some, in my opinion, who are totally in their power all the time, these people could be called avatars, or ascended masters, or whatever phrase we like, but they generally don’t remain incarnate (in physical reality) once they have truly achieved this state, because they have learned all they need to learn in this lifetime. They may linger to share their “truth”, but once that is done, there is no point for that energy to remain in that body. My definition of clear would include an appreciation of our essential nature, which to me is related to love and its infinite expression. We are clear, in my view, when we act solely from the high heart, because within this space, we cannot be controlled, and we can only do what is conducive to the greater common good (when our will and the will of the universe align...no more distortion, our earthly nature becomes a pure rendering of our essential nature). In this space we are connected to that which is beyond all dimensional space and time, so yes, we have access to all past and future events and knowing, and we can effect or foresee events in physical reality. There is cross over here, obviously, with the concept of Operating Thetan, and we see these concepts exist across multiple traditions, and we see that there is nothing new under the sun. This godlike state of pure being is pretty rare. The caveat here is that this is merely how I see it to be.

I must have "missed" Bill's definition of "Clear", but if the above referenced original L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology definition is the true meaning of clear, then I have never met anyone on this planet who is "clear", or any protocol which can, or purports to, clear an individual through an audit, or a session, or a series of audits and sessions, either with mechanical devices, energetic pulse, or by other means.

So, from my perspective and understanding, the original auditing is a tool, just like the myriad of other tools available out there, for an individual to peruse to open up their blocked energy centers in their etheric energetic KA body, change the beliefs in the mind which supports and holds this sequestered energy in place and caused the short circuit, to balance the hormones and bodily systems towards a more stable homeostasis, and to become more aware of the subtler abilities we all inherently have.

[CdnSirian]

"those are being protected by a time portal in the devils triangle and another in the pacific that is the dragons triangle ... they can see what is happening 20 years before it happens ..and stop anything that would hurt the planet ... to go through that time portal you have to be able to move the body with the spirit through to 20 years in the past .." I'm curious Jiminii who are the "they" in this passage? Thanks,

[greybeard]

Regarding the definition of clear on the thread.
It is very similar to description of the state of enlightenment testified to by Adyashanti, Ramana, Nasargadatta and several others I have read.
While there was the technique of self enquiry --the deep questioning "Who am I"--till the questioner fell away---the state was realised spontaneously.
In other words you cant make it happen.
The number of people enlightened in the world is a very small % of aspirants.
The late Dr Hawkins, who was enlightened, in the book Power vs Force said that one of the reasons that there are so few on earth at any time is as stated by music---there is no longer any reason to stay, apart from compassion for the rest of us and they leave.
Identifying with an organisation---ie stating I am a Buddhist is according to Hawkins a big obstacle.
Anything that leads to identifying as a personal self as opposed to One without a second---is duality---God and I--
Enlightenment is non-duality---only one consciousness---the totality all of it.
Beyond mind and beyond mind techniques.
Cant be spoken of.
This is not my opinion but paraphrased from the words of various enlightened sages--old and modern.
I point to Tims thread
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

From the horses mouth so to speak

Chris

[jiminii]

"those are being protected by a time portal in the devils triangle and another in the pacific that is the dragons triangle ... they can see what is happening 20 years before it happens ..and stop anything that would hurt the planet ... to go through that time portal you have to be able to move the body with the spirit through to 20 years in the past .." I'm curious Jiminii who are the "they" in this passage? Thanks,

trey located 3 more of my bodies on this planet ... LRH went back to the future ... so that would be 4 ... one in a base that is portaled back 20 years ... in the devils triangle
one in the pacific called the dragons triangle ... and one in a base on the himalayas .... I have no idea what their mission is ... I had thoughts on it ... if we destroyed this planet ... they would be back 20 years and could prevent it from happening in their time ... you see that is what is so unique about this whole creation ... we get one of these very heavy particles ... a pin head weighs about 2 tons ... and it shifts time and you can put one in orbit around the planet and beam energy down to some fields on earth and supply the entire planet with electricity .... they call this heavy particles small black holes ...
they also use them to protect their cities ...because they can see it 20 years before ... so the reptilians would be nuts to try to attack those bases ... so they try to get us to do all the dirty work so their hands appear clean ... but this is manipulation and is against the galactic laws ... but somehow they are getting away with it ... so we put technology on those bases ... and got a nice 20 year view of what is going on ...our limits are only those that would violate galactic laws ... so anything they plan is watched ... they will not be allowed to use nuclear weapons ... but for the rest we have to wait ... until we are given the OK ...

there is a lot of other worlds ... that are against opening up the powers ... even though they need them to manage the galaxy ... we have to prove we can make it safe ... and their fear comes from their own think ... they would be afraid of revealing all their own crimes which is necessary for clearing ... it is like we almost have everyone petrified ... at the thought ..,. but we already have done it once ... we are doing a rerun again ... and we still have to put up with all this s*** until we can get it done with AGREEMENT .. we can't go fly off the handle and say, "hey I am OT and if you don't do what we say we wipe you out" ...
in my case I can ... I am living on the planet ... and they are threatening my life ... we just have to wait out all these predictions and keep them from happening .. keep the planet safe ... and wait until they've finished their negotiations ..

in other words ... we can't do the same things we did before that eventually got us here ... remember I said that we go back to the thought of the chain ... well how did we get here ... they secretly setup to trap us all at the same time ... because we get moody and just do things we shouldn't do ...

so we have to live together and at the same time have some tolerance for other people's realities

it is kind of like this

does this answer your questions?

jim

[jiminii]

Music, here are some direct questions for you: Do you really know what 'Clear' means? (I explained in some detail on another thread. Please feed it back to me to check your understanding.)

Re "Clear": There are differing meanings of clear, firstly a snapshot of Hubbard’s initial meaning (Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health, in 1950):


A clear, for instance, has complete recall of everything which has ever happened to him or anything he has ever studied. He does mental computations, such as those of chess, for example, which a normal would do in a half an hour, in ten or fifteen seconds. He does not think “vocally” but spontaneously. There are no demon circuits in his mind except those which it might amuse him to set up -- and break down again -- to care for various approaches to living. He is entirely self-determined. And his creative imagination is high. He can do a swift study of anything within his intellectual capacity, which is inherent, and the study would be the equivalent to him of a year or two of training when he was “normal.” His vigor, persistence and tenacity to life are very much higher than anyone has thought possible.

From these two definitions, I would relate these to the condition of a person being “totally within their power”, at least for the greater part of their day to day life. There are some, in my opinion, who are totally in their power all the time, these people could be called avatars, or ascended masters, or whatever phrase we like, but they generally don’t remain incarnate (in physical reality) once they have truly achieved this state, because they have learned all they need to learn in this lifetime. They may linger to share their “truth”, but once that is done, there is no point for that energy to remain in that body. My definition of clear would include an appreciation of our essential nature, which to me is related to love and its infinite expression. We are clear, in my view, when we act solely from the high heart, because within this space, we cannot be controlled, and we can only do what is conducive to the greater common good (when our will and the will of the universe align...no more distortion, our earthly nature becomes a pure rendering of our essential nature). In this space we are connected to that which is beyond all dimensional space and time, so yes, we have access to all past and future events and knowing, and we can effect or foresee events in physical reality. There is cross over here, obviously, with the concept of Operating Thetan, and we see these concepts exist across multiple traditions, and we see that there is nothing new under the sun. This godlike state of pure being is pretty rare. The caveat here is that this is merely how I see it to be.

I must have "missed" Bill's definition of "Clear", but if the above referenced original L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology definition is the true meaning of clear, then I have never met anyone on this planet who is "clear", or any protocol which can, or purports to, clear an individual through an audit, or a session, or a series of audits and sessions, either with mechanical devices, energetic pulse, or by other means.

So, from my perspective and understanding, the original auditing is a tool, just like the myriad of other tools available out there, for an individual to peruse to open up their blocked energy centers in their etheric energetic KA body, change the beliefs in the mind which supports and holds this sequestered energy in place and caused the short circuit, to balance the hormones and bodily systems towards a more stable homeostasis, and to become more aware of the subtler abilities we all inherently have.

clear means the person is clear on the first dynamic ... survival of self

the OT levels above clear are to clear the person on the other dynamics ...like sex/family groups all man kind all life forms the physical universe the spiritual universe and through or as a god are the eight dynamics ...

jim

[Rich]

no longer any reason to stay, apart from compassion for the rest of us


Lester Levenson said: ''Without desire one cannot stay here'' one who is free stays here because of desire to help.


Children, once realization is attained, some beings merge with eternity. Very few of them come down. Who would like to come down again after having entered the Ocean of Bliss? In order to come down from that state, that state from which there is no return, it is necessary to have something to hold onto, a determined thought, a sankalpa. Only a few who can make that sankalpa to descend will come down.
That mental resolve is compassion, love or selfless service to suffering humanity. If you do not want to listen and respond to the call of those sincere seekers, and the cry of those who are suffering in the world, and if you want to remain in the impersonal state and do not want to be compassionate, it is alright. You can remain there.
When you come down, a curtain which you can pull away at any time, is put up by self-will in order to make functioning in this world more smooth and uninterrupted……..Consciously you do not pay any attention to the other side of the curtain…..Yet on and off you do go to the other side, but you manage to come back. The very thought or reminder of the other side can simply lift you there. Once you come down then you play the role well. ~Amma

[CdnSirian]

"those are being protected by a time portal in the devils triangle and another in the pacific that is the dragons triangle ... they can see what is happening 20 years before it happens ..and stop anything that would hurt the planet ... to go through that time portal you have to be able to move the body with the spirit through to 20 years in the past .." I'm curious Jiminii who are the "they" in this passage? Thanks,

trey located 3 more of my bodies on this planet ... LRH went back to the future ... so that would be 4 ... one in a base that is portaled back 20 years ... in the devils triangle
one in the pacific called the dragons triangle ... and one in a base on the himalayas .... I have no idea what their mission is ... I had thoughts on it ... if we destroyed this planet ... they would be back 20 years and could prevent it from happening in their time ... you see that is what is so unique about this whole creation ... we get one of these very heavy particles ... a pin head weighs about 2 tons ... and it shifts time and you can put one in orbit around the planet and beam energy down to some fields on earth and supply the entire planet with electricity .... they call this heavy particles small black holes ...
they also use them to protect their cities ...because they can see it 20 years before ... so the reptilians would be nuts to try to attack those bases ... so they try to get us to do all the dirty work so their hands appear clean ... but this is manipulation and is against the galactic laws ... but somehow they are getting away with it ... so we put technology on those bases ... and got a nice 20 year view of what is going on ...our limits are only those that would violate galactic laws ... so anything they plan is watched ... they will not be allowed to use nuclear weapons ... but for the rest we have to wait ... until we are given the OK ...

there is a lot of other worlds ... that are against opening up the powers ... even though they need them to manage the galaxy ... we have to prove we can make it safe ... and their fear comes from their own think ... they would be afraid of revealing all their own crimes which is necessary for clearing ... it is like we almost have everyone petrified ... at the thought ..,. but we already have done it once ... we are doing a rerun again ... and we still have to put up with all this s*** until we can get it done with AGREEMENT .. we can't go fly off the handle and say, "hey I am OT and if you don't do what we say we wipe you out" ...
in my case I can ... I am living on the planet ... and they are threatening my life ... we just have to wait out all these predictions and keep them from happening .. keep the planet safe ... and wait until they've finished their negotiations ..

in other words ... we can't do the same things we did before that eventually got us here ... remember I said that we go back to the thought of the chain ... well how did we get here ... they secretly setup to trap us all at the same time ... because we get moody and just do things we shouldn't do ...

so we have to live together and at the same time have some tolerance for other people's realities

it is kind of like this

does this answer your questions?

jim

No. You did not address the - various - "they's". And then came the "we"'s.
" 3 more of my bodies on this planet ... LRH went back to the future ... so that would be 4" this LRH in our future is another you?

"they also use them to protect their cities" who are these" they"s?

"so we put technology on those bases ." Who is "we"?

". so they try to get us to do all the dirty work so their hands appear clean ..." "they are the reptilians or another set of theys?

The "we"s and "they"'s get pretty confusing, so much so as to distract from your story.

" we can't go fly off the handle and say, "hey I am OT "..."in my case I can "... Why you, or would this apply to other OT's also living on the planet? Is there a specific group of OT's (ex churchies, free zoners, mavericks) who understand all these "we"'s and "they"'s who can fly off the handle about this? Thanks.

[jiminii]

"those are being protected by a time portal in the devils triangle and another in the pacific that is the dragons triangle ... they can see what is happening 20 years before it happens ..and stop anything that would hurt the planet ... to go through that time portal you have to be able to move the body with the spirit through to 20 years in the past .." I'm curious Jiminii who are the "they" in this passage? Thanks,

trey located 3 more of my bodies on this planet ... LRH went back to the future ... so that would be 4 ... one in a base that is portaled back 20 years ... in the devils triangle
one in the pacific called the dragons triangle ... and one in a base on the himalayas .... I have no idea what their mission is ... I had thoughts on it ... if we destroyed this planet ... they would be back 20 years and could prevent it from happening in their time ... you see that is what is so unique about this whole creation ... we get one of these very heavy particles ... a pin head weighs about 2 tons ... and it shifts time and you can put one in orbit around the planet and beam energy down to some fields on earth and supply the entire planet with electricity .... they call this heavy particles small black holes ...
they also use them to protect their cities ...because they can see it 20 years before ... so the reptilians would be nuts to try to attack those bases ... so they try to get us to do all the dirty work so their hands appear clean ... but this is manipulation and is against the galactic laws ... but somehow they are getting away with it ... so we put technology on those bases ... and got a nice 20 year view of what is going on ...our limits are only those that would violate galactic laws ... so anything they plan is watched ... they will not be allowed to use nuclear weapons ... but for the rest we have to wait ... until we are given the OK ...

there is a lot of other worlds ... that are against opening up the powers ... even though they need them to manage the galaxy ... we have to prove we can make it safe ... and their fear comes from their own think ... they would be afraid of revealing all their own crimes which is necessary for clearing ... it is like we almost have everyone petrified ... at the thought ..,. but we already have done it once ... we are doing a rerun again ... and we still have to put up with all this s*** until we can get it done with AGREEMENT .. we can't go fly off the handle and say, "hey I am OT and if you don't do what we say we wipe you out" ...
in my case I can ... I am living on the planet ... and they are threatening my life ... we just have to wait out all these predictions and keep them from happening .. keep the planet safe ... and wait until they've finished their negotiations ..

in other words ... we can't do the same things we did before that eventually got us here ... remember I said that we go back to the thought of the chain ... well how did we get here ... they secretly setup to trap us all at the same time ... because we get moody and just do things we shouldn't do ...

so we have to live together and at the same time have some tolerance for other people's realities

it is kind of like this

does this answer your questions?

jim

No. You did not address the - various - "they's". And then came the "we"'s.
" 3 more of my bodies on this planet ... LRH went back to the future ... so that would be 4" this LRH in our future is another you?

"they also use them to protect their cities" who are these" they"s?

"so we put technology on those bases ." Who is "we"?

". so they try to get us to do all the dirty work so their hands appear clean ..." "they are the reptilians or another set of theys?

The "we"s and "they"'s get pretty confusing, so much so as to distract from your story.

" we can't go fly off the handle and say, "hey I am OT "..."in my case I can "... Why you, or would this apply to other OT's also living on the planet? Is there a specific group of OT's (ex churchies, free zoners, mavericks) who understand all these "we"'s and "they"'s who can fly off the handle about this? Thanks.

ok there is the spirit metteyya ... and the viewpoints ... LRH is one viewpoint ... and I am not him ... but I come from the same spirit as he .. I have a separate track then he has he has his own track ... if you are OT then you will be able to locate him in the future ...

there is 3 more viewpoints .. one in the devils triangle .. one in the dragons triangle ...

now in session with trey I never knew about the dragons triangle in the pacific but we located it's distance from Japan ... and I went on the internet and found there is a similar triangle where ships disappear in the dragons triangle

if you want to know about the other viewpoint in a body on the himalayas you can google that too .. you will find reports in the Indian newspaper of all the villagers up there reporting about it ...

then there is another viewpoint in a command ship and he is in charge of this area ... and then there is another in another ship but not in this galaxy .. there is another on base 2 and there is one who is a high official in this galaxies government ... it would be high like a senator but his function is not a senator
more or less something like an official who is some kind of representative of part of the galaxy but not like our reprsentatives ... would be more like a person who controls that area

then suddenly there was all these beings created right out of source .. I have been told by someone who PM me on this website from ron's org and told me that captain bill robertson referred to them as MOCO .. a spirit creating more thetans ... something like that ... but from my viewpoint it could be either the creation of more viewpoints to occupy bodies and manage them or it could be more thetans that are broken pieces off a big being and then those broken pieces would have to create their own viewpoints to view in this MEST universe and manage bodies .....
it could be one spirit being called metteyya and for inelia it would be her gaia and for the other big beings doing this who I am not aware of are the spirits that they created some millions of new either spirits or viewpoints ..
the difference being a viewpoint has its own track and a thetan is a static there is no motion .. read the definition .. but from the static it can create this physical universe and golden ball viewpoints that connect to bodies to manage them .. so there are millions ... if they are new spirits then they would be broken pieces off a bigger spirit ... and each one of them would be a static too and they would have to create a viewpoint to be able to view inside this physical universe MEST ... and manage bodies ...

now the spirit . is the static .. it has no engrams .. it has nothing ... the viewpoints have all their own engrams memory systems or not depending on if they are a natural clear ... we sent brand new viewpoints ... from either new spirit beings or one spirit beingc creating viewpoints only along with his friends to come here and raise the theta level of the planet and raise the tone level too ... and possible other missions .. but I don't know about their missions ..

I don't know about the missions of the two undersea bases here .. and I said I had thoughts on it ... so I just gave my thoughts ...about it .. it is just my think .. I do not know if it is true ... it is just thoughts I had about it ..
if you are OT and can operate out of your body then you should be able to go see yourself and tell me...

jim

[jiminii]

"those are being protected by a time portal in the devils triangle and another in the pacific that is the dragons triangle ... they can see what is happening 20 years before it happens ..and stop anything that would hurt the planet ... to go through that time portal you have to be able to move the body with the spirit through to 20 years in the past .." I'm curious Jiminii who are the "they" in this passage? Thanks,

trey located 3 more of my bodies on this planet ... LRH went back to the future ... so that would be 4 ... one in a base that is portaled back 20 years ... in the devils triangle
one in the pacific called the dragons triangle ... and one in a base on the himalayas .... I have no idea what their mission is ... I had thoughts on it ... if we destroyed this planet ... they would be back 20 years and could prevent it from happening in their time ... you see that is what is so unique about this whole creation ... we get one of these very heavy particles ... a pin head weighs about 2 tons ... and it shifts time and you can put one in orbit around the planet and beam energy down to some fields on earth and supply the entire planet with electricity .... they call this heavy particles small black holes ...
they also use them to protect their cities ...because they can see it 20 years before ... so the reptilians would be nuts to try to attack those bases ... so they try to get us to do all the dirty work so their hands appear clean ... but this is manipulation and is against the galactic laws ... but somehow they are getting away with it ... so we put technology on those bases ... and got a nice 20 year view of what is going on ...our limits are only those that would violate galactic laws ... so anything they plan is watched ... they will not be allowed to use nuclear weapons ... but for the rest we have to wait ... until we are given the OK ...

there is a lot of other worlds ... that are against opening up the powers ... even though they need them to manage the galaxy ... we have to prove we can make it safe ... and their fear comes from their own think ... they would be afraid of revealing all their own crimes which is necessary for clearing ... it is like we almost have everyone petrified ... at the thought ..,. but we already have done it once ... we are doing a rerun again ... and we still have to put up with all this s*** until we can get it done with AGREEMENT .. we can't go fly off the handle and say, "hey I am OT and if you don't do what we say we wipe you out" ...
in my case I can ... I am living on the planet ... and they are threatening my life ... we just have to wait out all these predictions and keep them from happening .. keep the planet safe ... and wait until they've finished their negotiations ..

in other words ... we can't do the same things we did before that eventually got us here ... remember I said that we go back to the thought of the chain ... well how did we get here ... they secretly setup to trap us all at the same time ... because we get moody and just do things we shouldn't do ...

so we have to live together and at the same time have some tolerance for other people's realities

it is kind of like this

does this answer your questions?

jim

No. You did not address the - various - "they's". And then came the "we"'s.
" 3 more of my bodies on this planet ... LRH went back to the future ... so that would be 4" this LRH in our future is another you?

"they also use them to protect their cities" who are these" they"s?

"so we put technology on those bases ." Who is "we"?

". so they try to get us to do all the dirty work so their hands appear clean ..." "they are the reptilians or another set of theys?

The "we"s and "they"'s get pretty confusing, so much so as to distract from your story.

" we can't go fly off the handle and say, "hey I am OT "..."in my case I can "... Why you, or would this apply to other OT's also living on the planet? Is there a specific group of OT's (ex churchies, free zoners, mavericks) who understand all these "we"'s and "they"'s who can fly off the handle about this? Thanks.

ok next part ... the person who pm me showed me the OT level chart of ron's org and immediately I knew I had done all these OT levels and more and I proved it in 4 different orgs and wrote my postulates to LRH before I did them and they all happened ...on the weeks I picked
but COS never allowed me to get meter training or processing ... because a class 8 auditor already tried to take me into a past life and couldn't .. I had to run a flow through my head
but no meter reaction .. I ran a flow and put something on it .. and she says, "that" ... I literally popped out of this universe into a complete void of nothingness and back into a time of about 750 AD somewhere in France looking down a hill at a castle with a river going around it ... I had to take myself each time putting a nudge on a flow in my head to get me to go back and each time there was a gap between leaving this physical universe and entering that moment in time ... but ... that moment was not a memory ... it was as alive as i am now .. I did not do regression and look at pictures ... I literally went to that time period and looked ... now I asked the person who PM'd me what about this ... he said that it is one of the highest levels of OT in ron's org ... being able to go out of the physical universe entirely and reentering it ... so he sent me the chart and I know I did all of those OT levels
but how could I have done it on this planet ..??? I was born in 1945 before LRH even developed the OT levels ... so I then realized that what I was talking about was true \
I told everyone I was created from the future and sent back here to salvage this period of time ... that this period of time has already happened and we are redoing it to see if we can get more people awake ...

so I asked him about this and he said "yes we are doing this part of the universe again"
the reptilians do not want to have the galactic government sanction their other planets or something like that .. they are doing illegal manipulations of this population and getting us to do their dirty work so they could say their hands are clean
but they are getting away with it only tells me ... this

everyone up there is afraid to open the OT levels ... so they are more or less not looking ...

so we have to do it with our own intentions .. so those millions coming back as far as I know are suppose to forward the actions needed to get us our own voice ...

we had to win this war in the future ... and that is what we have been waiting for ... so now we can activate all these millions of pure thought viewpoints and they will do the rest

that is how I see it.

but this bodies eyes can not see it ..

but it is getting verification from Ron's org

so for the first time I have found someone that knows why I have all these abilities and where they came from ... some of us were trained before we came .. after they created us new out of the static ...

i have had a 16 pound sledgehammer go through my head and left thick paste blood dried on the back of my head all through the hair and it took more than 10 minutes to pull all this paste out of my hair to look in the mirrow ... NO CUTS ... NO BUMP ... NO HEADACHE ...somehow this spirit in me put my head back together in an instant ...

so I HAVE NO DOUBT AS TO WHAT I AM ... AND I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE'S THINK IS
I'M AM TIRED OF ALL THEIR NEGATIVITY ... .. not yours ...you just want to clean up my lousy prose ...

sorry hope this answers your questions

jim

[music]

Hi Jim, with all due respect, you have several threads dealing with these issues already. Could I ask you (and others) to take these discussions to one of those please?

Normally the moderators would ask you that, but I'm sure they won't mind me asking you in their place.

Thanks.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

A repost of what I explained (to enfoldedblue) here, (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59276-Q-and-A-about-Ron-Hubbard-Bill-Robertson-Scientology-the-Free-Zone-Ron-s-Org-Planet-Earth.-Jim-and-the-Future&p=678007&viewfull=1#post678007) about the state of 'Clear':




The issue of 'Clear' is easily (and forgivably) misunderstood.

'Clear' is a technical term meaning (as a very loose summary) that you don't have any more engrams. See the 'Dianetics Picture Book', reposted below, for details. Hubbard's description in his early 1950 book 'Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health' was too optimistic in practice, though he was definitely aware of and striving for something real. 'Clear' does absolutely NOT mean that you're a perfect human being, or are not affected by other things.

Erasing all your engrams is a very valuable threshold to cross. But it's just a step along the way. It's not at all the end of the road. There's a LOT else in terms of unfinished business, accumulated through the millennia, that can drag one down and affect attitudes, beliefs, goals, behavior, your body, and just about everything else.

http://projectavalon.net/Dianetics_Picture_Book.pdf

For various reasons too complex to go into here, after reaching 'Clear' as a threshold, one can then audit oneself rather than being dependent on another person to audit you. Although it's still nice, and sometimes easler, to talk to another person when figuring things out! But after 'Clear', 'solo auditing' becomes possible, and is encouraged.

One of the reasons why 'Clear' is not the end of the personal development road is that Planet Earth is absolutely crawling with entities of various kinds which stick to our souls and our bodies -- either directly, or attached at a kind of influencing distance. (All unsavory, but true.) There are two remedies for this:


1. Bolster ourselves up so that we are not affected by these external influences (and they are external, inasmuch as they are not within ourselves as beings).

2. Handle and free the entities that are focused on ourselves. (And, if we wish, we can free the entities that are focused on others. This is a kind of part of the Bodhisattva function. If we can help to liberate others, then some people choose to do so.)
Some people maintain that the entity situation on the planet isn't real, and hold a viewpoint of denial about this entire edifice of stuff -- the reality of which any shaman worth their salt over the last several thousand years knows a great deal about, and can confirm. The Buddhists know all about it, too: they call them "Angry Ghosts". It's a good term.

But if someone does deny it, the entities don't care. (Or in some cases, they'll be delighted!) They'll go after you anyway -- especially if you're trying to change things on this planet, and help out a little. Hundreds of Avalonians know this well.

Hubbard himself spent quite a number of years chasing down the subject of 'Clear' - and famously made one or two wrong turns, and announcements that were too premature -- but after that was all straightened out, he discovered there was a lot more 'on the other side'.

Arguably, that was when his personality really started to change -- and it did, sometime in the 1960s. Now aware of what he was really up against (think of all the legions of Angry Ghosts in existence, and there are a lot of those!), he went into battle mode and took the 'Church' with him.

And, my personal opinion is that he made some bad decisions, and didn't handle it very well. But his research continued, and -- as I've said elsewhere, pretty much -- tens of thousands of others have benefited hugely because he was willing to do the trial-and-error experimental work on himself.

[Bill Ryan]

Hi Jim, with all due respect, you have several threads dealing with these issues already. Could I ask you (and others) to take these discussions to one of those please?

Normally the moderators would ask you that, but I'm sure they won't mind me asking you in their place.

Thanks.


And you could have easily closed this thread, which you started, with your single clear statement -- "Why Dianetics is not for you."

And that's fine!

But you have been intent on keeping this ball in the air. So: don't complain if others come in to join the game.

:)

As long as you keep posting your misconceptions, I'm sure that Jim will continue to try to correct them, adding as much value as he feels he can -- and so will many others. See how it works?

[music]

Misconceptions, Bill? A misconception is a very vague notion, and one that generally relies on a fixed viewpoint. If you could demonstrate to me where Jim has corrected my misconceptions, quoting both of us as relevant, I would be grateful, but may well disagree with your assessment.

People replied to this thread Bill, I replied to their replies. That's the way I see most threads working on this site. I also came back to this thread respectfully responding to questions you raised. It's fine if you don't like the answer I gave you, but I don't see how that implies my "keeping the ball in the air"?

Re "clear": Thank you Bill, though based on what you have written here, and the contextual framework within which I have previously used the term "clear", I must admit I am at a loss as to why you felt the need to say this to me ...


Do you really know what 'Clear' means? (I explained in some detail on another thread. Please feed it back to me to check your understanding.)


Do you know how much you know, and how much you don't know? (Please answer this question. You're grandstanding and holding forth as if you know a very great deal. I do not think that you do.)

Based on what you have posted above in relation to "clear", and based on my reply (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=681093&viewfull=1#post681093) to your initial demand (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=680533&viewfull=1#post680533) I don't think I am out of order in requesting an apology from you, or at least some acknowledgement of the effort I expended to satisfy your demands.

I'll quote myself from above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=681093&viewfull=1#post681093), as this is it in a nutshell when we talk about "knowledge"


it is one of the paradoxes of existence that we hold two states simultaneously: we don’t know as much as we think we know – we know much more than we think we know.

[jiminii]

Misconceptions, Bill? A misconception is a very vague notion, and one that generally relies on a fixed viewpoint. If you could demonstrate to me where Jim has corrected my misconceptions, quoting both of us as relevant, I would be grateful, but may well disagree with your assessment.

People replied to this thread Bill, I replied to their replies. That's the way I see most threads working on this site. I also came back to this thread respectfully responding to questions you raised. It's fine if you don't like the answer I gave you, but I don't see how that implies my "keeping the ball in the air"?

Re "clear": Thank you Bill, though based on what you have written here, and the contextual framework within which I have previously used the term "clear", I must admit I am at a loss as to why you felt the need to say this to me ...


Do you really know what 'Clear' means? (I explained in some detail on another thread. Please feed it back to me to check your understanding.)


Do you know how much you know, and how much you don't know? (Please answer this question. You're grandstanding and holding forth as if you know a very great deal. I do not think that you do.)

Based on what you have posted above in relation to "clear", and based on my reply (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=681093&viewfull=1#post681093) to your initial demand (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=680533&viewfull=1#post680533) I don't think I am out of order in requesting an apology from you, or at least some acknowledgement of the effort I expended to satisfy your demands.

I'll quote myself from above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=681093&viewfull=1#post681093), as this is it in a nutshell when we talk about "knowledge"


it is one of the paradoxes of existence that we hold two states simultaneously: we don’t know as much as we think we know – we know much more than we think we know.


ok thanks to both of you ... bill and music ... I now remember why I wanted to keep this thread going ...

music is right ...about her idea that there is another way ...

this is what was my main idea for opening up our other timelines ...

now there is a process that LRH talked about ... if you can get a viewpoint (that what is your I AM that does the viewing for the spirit) ... if you can get this viewpoint 3 feet behind the body the spirit KNOWS how to heal the body even if the viewpoint has forgotten the knowledge of it ...

I took it one more step behind that ... the spirit that is a broken piece off from the main source that is a static but can cause things to be created from that static is aware of all the viewpoints it has created ... ..

so my main idea for coming to this website was this ... if I can shift the viewpoint I am in to the spirit metteyya itself ... the spirit KNOWS how to align all the data of ALL ITS VIEWPOINTS and in my reality of this could correct all of this without vanishing the physical universe ... but free all the viewpoints of their enturbulated thought ...

so music is in another kind of connection .. don't really know what it is .. buddhist or hindu .. don't know ... but I believe she could find a way to source itself with the being she is .. and she would be able to align ALL THE VIEWPOINTS SHE HAS CREATED .. ..

now I don't know how she can do this ... I don't know if she needs to run the command "who is holding my aberrations in place" to locate her other timelines ... and then have to locate the distance she is from each of them ...

maybe she KNOWS ... how to do this ... but it is my idea we can clean it all much faster if we can just move our viewpoint directly into source itself the spirit itself

please tell me what your ideas are on this

jim

[Padmé]

Jim, in my opinion, you may need to spend some more time reading Music's posts/ threads... :)

[ulli]

Jim, Music is a guy.
A highly sensitive person, who is doing great, by himself,
and has no need for using COS language
to make himself understood.
(With a bit of help from his lady, another cherished Avalon member)

[jiminii]

when I read music and others post .. it is almost like trying to learn a new language in itself ,.. and I will try to use farmers language..

ok I saw something in his writings ... but went past so quick didn't really know what that is ...

and also I have been using another route too ... I read all the books to be able to define what I was doing with all these powers turning on
but I follow more the way of KNOWING ...

that is a rough thing ... because KNOWING is THAT .... you know ... and putting it into words is changing it from the basic KNOW which is the entire concept of KNOWINGNESS ... like I have been in those times .. of knowingness where I see the wind coming in and I suddenly turn and swing my hand and decide to make the wind go the opposite direction and it shifts instantaneous .. the other direction and creates a water spout in the bay

this is operating off the spirits native knowingness ... making the head vanish and running it to the waist ... is knowingness ... I know exactly what it is ,.. try to put it in words and you can't do it again ... but at that moment YOU KNOW ...

I moved my hands near my friends cathy waist who is screaming in pain on the floor kicking and I move my hand there and the pain blows instantly and then something I pick up knows I have to move my hand from her side to the middle and then do it and something moves in her....

you see a hurricane is going to clearwater florida and I am in Los angeles 2500 miles away and I suddenly KNOW something and flip on the TV and there is a hurricane just outside clearwater heading straight in and something in me reaches out and says "stop" ... and it stops .. but this body doesn't see it ..

I get to florida and my friends tell me that ALL THE OT 7'S ARE ON THE TOP OF THE FORT HARRISON TRYING TO AUDIT OUT THE STORM
why ????

why can't they know and move it instantly like me .... .. and reading all the books of LRH doesn't get anyone to be able to do something from his own KNOWINGNESS

so the end result we are trying to achieve gets lost ... it gets into all this thinking ... it is not like doing a spontaneous driving a car ... so it doesn't create the result of making a spirit's viewpoint able to manage the universe naturally like he would a car ... if he has to get his meter out every time he wants to find out how to do something or the I ching or any other kind of hope we can get a prediction .. type stuff than that is a poor result

I don't want a crutch to use to make my thoughts happen or change the course of hurricane coming straight at me because by the time you get the meter out to start the session the hurricane has already hit the place and going somewhere else

so knowing books is fine but it doesn't give the person a natural spontaneous ability to manage this universe

so I am trying to find a natural way to do this ... like getting 3 feet behind your head and the spirit will KNOW how to fix the body ...like I KNEW how to fix cathy's intestines ...

so I am thinking it is possible to move this viewpoint I AM ... somewhere inside the spirit's I AM ... there must be an I AM there that is creating the bodies ... do you see .. and this I AM is creating the universe with everyone else ... and creating bodies ... and it KNOWS HOW TO DO IT ... NATURALLY ...

so I think there is a middle point between this western science and eastern way of something that seems more natural ... in fact I had a dream of LRH 2 years before I knew he existed

I dove in the water in a dream ... and I ended up in this huge swimming pool and LRH was standing on this ceramic pool with ceramic walls and a metal hose is coming out of one of his breast and offering milk and there was NO ONE IN THE POOL .. the pool was empty....I thought "agh " ... and I dove back into the water again and I ended up in a blackness space and a beautiful natural nude body of a girl is there ... but the head and hands and feet fade into the darkness ... this is like the eastern religions .. no head ..no arms .. no feet ... and I thought "aghhh" again .. and I dove back into the water and it was the most happy in my life ... I was playing with the children and the dolphins ...in the sea

that is what I am looking for ... finding ways we can open up the natural abilities of a spirit and having them be able to work spontaneous and natural in this physical universe ... then I could say we have achieved something .... then I can say we can live without shoes and jobs and food and anyway we want ... and create what we want spontaneously ... . then we would have an ideal world ... where I think everyone would be happy

jim

[ulli]

I want everyone to be happy too. And in my happy world everyone has the choice to say that some cups of tea are not for them.
There was a time when I thought EVERYONE needed astrology.
(Sometimes I still believe that, but I won't be the one to recruit them)
So I no longer shove it down people's throats.
Actually, I have gone the opposite way, and often even refuse to answer questions.
If they are interested at all I tell them to go online and learn about it there.

Meanwhile, enjoying the manifestations that present themselves here:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/984281_10151685955475482_1004667028_n.jpg

[donk]

Yeah, I've given up on "systems", be it religion or philosophies or individual's teachings.

I focus on specific thoughts. The very few that cross all systems, that transcend the differences in all philosophies. That don't need long explanations or complicate verbiage (code, language), where there's no worries if any of the tools or pieces or teachings don't conflict or contradict each other.

It's not easy to dig that deep, but once you're there it's not complicated. No one or nothing needs to conform to any ideas or thoughts or tech within the system, it's just inherently true. I think L Ron captured some of that in dianetics, enough that a system was formed around (with all the complications and the defensiveness of its followers when something doesn't conform to their pet beliefs within it). I think it is just like Christianity, Buddhism, "democracy", good philosophies/religions...and is not the true issue here, at least for me.

The dynamic is creepy. I think a poster I won't name hit the mark when referring it to feeling like "the second coming", no one could have described my feelings better (at that time). I don't think Dianetics or L Ron or even Scientology is the issue with some of us here (me at least), it's something else at play, and I think the ones better at articulating it than me (I haven't even completely worked it out, so maybe that's not the right word) dance around it.

Just my musings, hope they make sense. I'm tired of always over complicating stuff--I'm sure there's an element of self-loathing mixed in there somewheres

[Rich]

I focus on specific thoughts.
What do you mean?

[gripreaper]

Regarding the definition of clear on the thread.
It is very similar to description of the state of enlightenment testified to by Adyashanti, Ramana, Nasargadatta and several others I have read.
While there was the technique of self enquiry --the deep questioning "Who am I"--till the questioner fell away---the state was realised spontaneously.
In other words you cant make it happen.
The number of people enlightened in the world is a very small % of aspirants.
The late Dr Hawkins, who was enlightened, in the book Power vs Force said that one of the reasons that there are so few on earth at any time is as stated by music---there is no longer any reason to stay, apart from compassion for the rest of us and they leave.
Identifying with an organisation---ie stating I am a Buddhist is according to Hawkins a big obstacle.
Anything that leads to identifying as a personal self as opposed to One without a second---is duality---God and I--
Enlightenment is non-duality---only one consciousness---the totality all of it.
Beyond mind and beyond mind techniques.
Cant be spoken of.
This is not my opinion but paraphrased from the words of various enlightened sages--old and modern.
I point to Tims thread
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

From the horses mouth so to speak

Chris

I remember that thread, which quickly devolved into duality, hierarchical structures, redemption, and scarcity based doctrines of patriarchal divisiveness.

The context and perspective from which we view phenomenon has a lot to do with how we define it, and often times, those with which we are communicating in our arcane languages, (which were developed in the context of divisiveness and the ego) is wholly inadequate to describe the "state" of non-duality, which is attainable by each energetic refracted spark of the light of the grand Sophia, the matrix of all that is.

Form, which our bodies are a part of, is an amalgamation and a structure of these light particles into a hologram held by energetic beliefs and oscillates between the two polarities of duality at a density which appears to be solid, this relativism based on solidity, the Newtonian paradigm of physics and how physicality can be manipulated to shift and change into other forms.

An engram, to my understanding, is an imbedded belief in the mind, supported by a physical experience, which sequesters an aspect of the energetics of the soul, and severs that energy from the whole, causing a "short circuit" in the ability of that soul to be in the full state of light.

The ability to hold the complete fulness of the spectrum of light in all of it's intensity, is part of why we chose duality, to experience the many aspects of this duality in each of the myriad of polarized states, in order to tie the entire spectrum together into the whole within a body. This is why some view earth as a school and others view it as a prison planet.

Yes, we have been messed with from nefarious entities whose intent may not be in alignment with the collective consciousness and the collective dream of duality and the subsequent descension into the many polarized facets of duality, yet we collectively agreed to this contrasting dualistic experience. If we no longer want to experience the extreme polarized states of duality anymore because we have had enough and are sick and tired of the extremes, than we have but to choose. Just like we chose to move further into density, we also choose to ascend further into unity. It's the dance.

So clearing engrams, or karma, or polarized energetic disconnects, or false beliefs and structures, is done by going within and listening to the "transmitter/receiver" signals coming from your energy field, and feeling the severed consciousness and energetic disconnects, and returning them to balanced and free flowing unity. This cannot be done wholly from the baser dualistic platform of the five senses alone, but includes what is occurring in the sub-conscious mind as beliefs, as well as the core energetic visceral brainstem DNA impulses and imprints coming from the etheric energy field.

These subtle energies transcend the single lifetime and are part of the entire experience of the soul and their many incarnations, imprints which may be so grooved that the soul finds it almost impossible to dislodge and bring back into balance, no matter how may lifetimes that particular fractal of light is experienced in it's polarized dualistic state. The belief being so grooved and so strong.

To postulate that there is a protocol developed which can be monitored through an electronic audit, by picking up the signals of the emotional and visceral disconnect, and thus leading the individual to the source of this disconnect and releasing and "firing" off the energetic pathways by a catharsis of the engram and karma, to release the charge and bring the soul into wholistic homeostasis, is a very intriguing idea. Many of us have been looking for this "holy grail" on "HOW TO" clear in the most efficient and successful manner.

There is no shortcut, or fully developed protocol, one size fits all system. There are many systems in place which purport to help the individual release early childhood traumas, and remove major anxieties (energetic disconnects)and make them more functional and better behaving members of the existing paradigm of the hierarchical structure, but few which can or do get past the current incarnation, down to the visceral DNA core of the total memory of the soul.

Although this may have been L. Ron Hubbards original dream, and he may have had a way to accelerate the clearing of emotional traumas based on the first charkra survival instincts and disconnects, targeted to 85% of humans who are stuck on this level, his protocols never developed into the ability to fully clear the entire souls heritage , structures, disconnects, beliefs, engrams and karmas.

As far as I know, no one has. Those who fully entered unity and left this school we call earth, told us the prison planet paradigm is an illusion, and told us that we must go within and all that we need would be found there. They also tried to tell us how powerful we are, and how Samsara and suffering is of our own making, and that Samadhi is an attainable state.

The rest are just tools, none of which work very well.

[Sebastion]

As I posted to Jiminii in another thread before it was ceremoniously deleted as apparently negative, I made the statement that I merged with Source many years ago. It occurred to me after reading the often repeated name of Matteyya, that in the higher regions of pure spirit, there is no such need for names. You are known for the light you are already. Names are useless until one is given you in the lower realms, which again is not pure spirit.

To keep referring to the spirit of Matteyya in my book and taken from my many experiences/travels in the great beyond, is to refer to a lower plain/dimensional entity well away from anything called pure spirit. Again this is taken from my personal travels in the beyond. I will stand for my own personal experiences before I will take another's word for anything. You have the choice to believe what you will.

My advice to all is to gain the personal experiences yourself then you will not have to worry about believing another's words. Why? Because you will then know for yourself, no beliefs necessary.

Thought I might add as well that I had no thoughts about scientology that swayed me in any direction as I wasn't interested in it nor had I learned anything about it much before Jiminii came on board. I will remain walking the middle path as I always have.




from post #54 by Jiminii:
so my main idea for coming to this website was this ... if I can shift the viewpoint I am in to the spirit metteyya itself ... the spirit KNOWS how to align all the data of ALL ITS VIEWPOINTS and in my reality of this could correct all of this without vanishing the physical universe ... but free all the viewpoints of their enturbulated thought ...

[donk]

H


I focus on specific thoughts.
What do you mean?

Like: what does it mean to be?

To be light?

To be love?

To be human?

To be me?

What does it mean to be happy? To possess? To control?

How is free will being effected (affected??

Why did I do that (what is the purpose of my presence)?

What is that feeling? Where did it come from?

How does the external world effect the internal (what is my reality, how much of it do I share?)?

Maybe some of Jim's experience can help. Maybe L Ron's, Bill, Jesus, Satan, Ra...everybody.

But I don't like my thoughts to get caught up in certain programs. And systems (such as "dianetics" or Christianity) derail thoughts, turn them to arguments or battles or dogmas or whatever.

It feels like a system got introduced with much excitement, which scared away skepticism or criticism, and leaned toward divisive. It seems like L Ron (and his fans) is treated or approached or something differently than nearly any other character in this cosmic drama we co-create

[Bill Ryan]

As I posted to Jiminii in another thread before it was ceremoniously deleted as apparently negative, I made the statement that I merged with Source many years ago.

Do you mean this one here? (Not deleted at all!)

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59176-THE-MIRACLE-OF-L-RON-HUBBARD-S-TECHNOLOGY-the-end-phenomenon-that-occurred&p=675647&viewfull=1#post675647

--->
Having merged with Source some 35 years ago, I can categorically state that I gave no entity in any dimension any jurisdiction over me. For you to state that this Matteyya entity has the right to choose whether I live or die on this planet is pure BS and just who are "they" who is gonna decide who goes to the 4th dimension or not? Who in hell gave them that right? Who gave Mateyya that right to decide? I can assure you that the story regarding this aspect is delusional on your part and you might want to go back and rethink it!

[jiminii]

As I posted to Jiminii in another thread before it was ceremoniously deleted as apparently negative, I made the statement that I merged with Source many years ago.

Do you mean this one here? (Not deleted at all!)

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59176-THE-MIRACLE-OF-L-RON-HUBBARD-S-TECHNOLOGY-the-end-phenomenon-that-occurred&p=675647&viewfull=1#post675647

--->
Having merged with Source some 35 years ago, I can categorically state that I gave no entity in any dimension any jurisdiction over me. For you to state that this Matteyya entity has the right to choose whether I live or die on this planet is pure BS and just who are "they" who is gonna decide who goes to the 4th dimension or not? Who in
hell gave them that right? Who gave Mateyya that right to decide? I can assure you that the story regarding this aspect is delusional on your part and you might want to go back and rethink it!


you will learn it all here ... JUST HAD A ANOTHER COG WHILE FIXING MY WRITE UP ,.,. at the end of this write up you will find out WHO



Posted by Dila (here)
Hi Jim!

1. If an incarnated identity (human) has within itself a GE and a thetan (in some cases), then what happens after the body dies? I think you mentioned that GE goes and finds a new body for itself. If GE is self aware and can move through bodies that tells me it can evolve through experience.
In view of that GE is just as valuable as other living consciousness and deserves a chance to live. Where does the figure of 70% of GEs come from?

GE usually waits for all the cells to die and then goes looking for a new body to create unless it is violently killed ... it won't stay in the body ... leaves a ghost in the house .. that more or less does the same things it did when it was alive .. but it can't create new thought ... and if someone gets in a seance with them the ghost will play but will just send garbage to anyone in contact with them . the GE can be heavily influenced by a previous strong personality ..but is still basically a being that copies information since it can't make any new thoughts .. learns by experience and repetition ..A GE is very well designed and can be an engineer ... but usually it's designs will not always match or work well it takes a thetan to be able to see out points in the design and correct them. the GE's keep breeding and making more bodies ... but the amount of Spirit beings being dumped on the planet is not as much as the amount of GE's being created .. . someone wrote something about zenu and 250 billion spirits were blown up here with atomic bombs in volcano's about 75 million years ago ... those beings are too damaged to be able to take on a new life here ..so we are limited to the amount of spirits being dumped here to the amount of GE's being created

2. Do negatively oriented ETs have thetans? Do they have a recording system? They don’t seem to be concerned about karma very much.

from my viewpoint these retilians appear to be too robotic to have thetans in them ... to do what is ordered of them with no conscious or remorse ... so I believe most of them doing all the negative stuff are controlled by others that do have thetans .. and look at us like chicken .. with no regards for our life ... it would be the same as we look at an ant hill that we don't want near our house .. we just go out there and wipe it out ..all GE's have a recording system so it can operate .. GE's have no ability to operate on KNOW .. there is no spirit there that can KNOW ... to get the idea of a GE ... it would be like building electronic circuits and putting them in some kind of robot .. the CPU central processing unit would be programmed to run it ..
the problem is if you put a piece of knowledge on every cell in the human body it would have enough information to run about 6 hours ... so it needs this automatic memory system recording every perception the body feels ... because it has to be able to respond to balance to balance the body and direction and motion and every other response it would need to make this body move fast and smoothly ... all of it is recorded ... if I remember (don't have the books .) it is either 25 times a second or 50 times a second ...if you can down load the books it will tell you ... so basically it is a creation like a ghost but if you went back in time to its original creation the ghost would disappear forever ... and like an ant hill the reptilians are managed similar to one queen bee running all the ants in some kind of mental connection to all of them ... so in the future they will try to set up the entire galaxy to be mentally run by them ...
so if 90 percent of them or more are GE's being managed by a few with Thetans ... the GE's only have body tones .. from 0 death to 4 enthusiasm ... the negative beings running them are thetans running below death tone levels .. like owning controlling and punishing bodies .. the thetan has emotional tones from minus 40 hiding to plus 40 serenity of beingness

3. You mentioned that according to Ron Hubbard criminals from other planets had been dumped here on this planet for ‘good’ behavior. Were they also trapped thetans or GEs? I guess since GEs cannot live on other planets, they must be thetans. It just paints thetans as a bunch of unruly troublemakers and not evolved beings.

that is a no change system up there ... so anyone tries to change it comes here .. artist genius engineers .. managers ... criminals ... perverts .. degrade beings ..(like bums) .. anything unwanted gets dumped here .. and especially the big beings because their power is so much that they can be the only ones that can stop them ... has nothing to do with behavior ... there is no real reason too ... many are here because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time .. nothing they did wrong .. they were in some area where they just scooped up the thetans there ..The GE's designed for this planet are designed to live in this kind of environment ... and that is not true .. you could compare the better half of this planet as the rebels in star wars and those in the stars would be the suppressive empire ... also the same bankers creating the same wars they did in the stars for money .. all of it comes from the stars ... we are here to get the jedi and innocent out ... but we can also salvage the rest if they will only decide to do the course to strip them of all those recordings that are making them criminals and perverts ...

4. You mentioned that the guys who had won the war decided to trap thetans from the losing side on this planet and now there is nobody competent enough to run the universe. If they are a bunch of nincompoops how did they manage to entrap beings much greater than themselves?

it is more complicated than that ... 50,000 years ago the most powerful got together and admitted they were losing .. more and more of them were being trapped and if all of them would be trapped there would be no one left that would be able to free anyone .. everyone would be trapped ... and enslaved ... so they are the ones that have been creating the technology ...
so they hide themselves in a time portal somewhere where no one would find them and started their work on finding ways to undo what has been done to get us to this point of time in such a mess ... so they are the ones that trapped all the remaining jedi .. or big beings .. because the big beings would be the only ones that could stop them and their plan. so the empire won the war not the most powerful ...so we could hide ourselves and design a way to get everyone out of this mess we are in . so we set it up so the governments would do this ... and this would put the entire galaxy at risk ... they need us but they are also afraid of us ... you invite someone to a party and get them all happy watching the show and all the beautiful creations so they are off their guard and then hit them with all the electronics ... put some kind of fluid in their bodies that will trap the spirit and then put them in ice cubes and dump them in the oceans on this planet ... with all kinds of implant machines and force fields around the planet ...


5. I listened to Bashar presentation on Awake & Aware 2013 http://awakeandaware2013.net/speakers where he explained that a person couldn’t really go back in time and change past events in order to affect the future. According to him the reality is a bunch of countless static pictures (like video frames) which you change millions of times a second. So you jump between probabilities/timelines all the time without knowing it. He says that it is impossible to go to the past and change it because your past is a set of trillions of still frames from different probabilities which are and always will be there. You could go back in time and try to change the events but you would be jumping back in time to an entirely different probability/timeline and not your own. So the paradox of time travelling where you go back and kill your grandfather and yourself cease to exist cannot happen. Some other version of you from another timeline/probability would cease to exist but your timeline would remain unchanged.
In view of that, my question is- where did you get the information about thetans sending portions of themselves back in time to shift the balance between GEs and thetans so we can win the war?

if this were true than a touch assist wouldn't work ... means .. get a bad cut on your hand and get in the exact same position and put the knife at the exact place you cut the hand and touch it until all the pain is gone .. and the hand is totally healed ... but not healed ... the creation of the cut is vanished ... so the cut never happened ...

you doing the touch assist must go to that moment of time and look at the exact moment ... while you are touching the hand with the knife .. means you ... can go to that time and undo the creation of the cut ...and anything else can be undone

it is true it is a bunch of static pictures but you are looking and using all of those pictures for your own memories ... in fact an insane man could be stuck back there in some past that has all these snakes coming at him and mixing those pictures with present and he REALLY sees the snakes .. and the psychiatrists tells him it is an illusion so the person can not sort out the pictures so he can get back to present time ...keeps the guy insane ...

by coming back to this period of time we subconsciously are putting their attention here and everyone else's attention here at the same time ... they may not know it in the future ... but they can sense it and be here trying to stop what you're doing ... this 76 trillion years is this way the last 76 trillion was magic we could go to the future and stop and wait for the enemy to show up and zap them all out ... you can't use earth logic to try to describe what a spirit can do .. we take and create viewpoints and we can stick them inside this reality anywhere we want ... because the spirit being is outside this creation creating it all along with all the other spirit beings ... that are all putting viewpoints in along this time track so they jump in and figure out what we are doing and put sleeper children in the church of scientology to take it over using the reptilian mind control mind melds they use to take over the church from the inside ... that this how they took the church .. because that is the only way they can stop it ...
and this is the second run we are doing ... we are the master games players .. that is what we are ... we created this game called the physical universe so we have more advantage to winning then anyone one else ... when I say we . I mean LRH and me and others from base 2 ... and we can trained and process others up to that level in ron's org ..here on the planet
they can not stop us ... they have no real power .. their power is only what they can create out of the physical universe like space ships and etc .. they have no real spiritual power .. their only power is suppression ... and fear ...

LRH was created in the Future ... right out of source and so was I ... now source is outside the box ... imagine the entire universe is a box ... all spirit beings that have viewpoints inside this box are doing it from outside the box

we put the viewpoints inside the box to get us eyes and it is like a helmet .. we put on top the body to control it feel it and manage it ... but the helmet ..(viewpoint is a creation) ... the spirit is static ... there is no motion no waveform to matter no energy no space and no time ... but it can create all those ... there is no motion in the static only the spirit but it can create motion outside the static .. so we can create anything we want inside this box but this box is an agreed upon box .. we all agreed to the laws .. so we can not undo the agreements for others .. but we can undo the agreements for ourselves like undo the agreement of gravity and levitate .. I have been getting auditing for years .. every night looking up into a nothingness ... and be heavy yawns of charge blowing off ... and then trey audited me and we located all my other bodies .after awhile I start to realize what happened and then I came to this website ... some one from free zone contacted me and verified what I say is true ... we are running this time again

so how does this change the future ... if you prevented someone from losing a leg ... what could he do in the future with that leg as we go forward again... if we make people more powerful and less fearful and more aware what will happen as we carry that through the future a second time .. the ripple effect goes all the way to the top of the future and even though it hasn't happened we can predict what will happen as we run through the creation the second time

each time we run this track from this time to the future ... we are creating from this time forward ... with newly created spirits sent from the future who do not have a recording system that can mess up their minds with implants and booby trapped hypnotic commands ...and etc ... so we are just doing a different create that goes right on up and changes the future as we go ..so this is what a spirit can do ... create viewpoints in the future and they will guide us there and create viewpoints in this time ... and from the future they can manage us even if it is done on a subconscious method ...

so if they can do this to me ... then they can also be auditing others all over the planet from the future without anyone knowing it ... and so now you can see why I am not worried about everyone one getting there ... they might be protesting as hard as they want ... but we can contact the spirit and the spirit will agree even if the body doesn't ...
this place is mine ... and it will go the way I want it to go ... and please don't take that as an offence ... I am not changing free choice ... I am removing the lies that are in everyone so they can change their minds to doing what is right ...(not just me but many in the future now trained to get us through this ... and if you want to look at is another way ... the spirit outside the box has a body it is running inside the box of everyone here .. in the future) ... so in a way you might say you are clearing yourselves from the future ... hahaha .. god that was a good cognition ... hahahaha
this telepathy is getting better ... I'm yawning like crazy ... thanks

anything else you want to know ....???



Thank you for the thought provoking and refreshing thread.
I appreciate very much your coming forward with this information.

Love,
Dila

much love and life to you
jim

[Rich]

H


I focus on specific thoughts.
What do you mean?

Like: what does it mean to be?

To be light?

To be love?

To be human?

To be me?

What does it mean to be happy? To possess? To control?

How is free will being effected (affected??

Why did I do that (what is the purpose of my presence)?.....

same here my friend, same here

[Sebastion]

well thanks Bill! I went back and looked, couldn't find it and then read where 20 posts had been removed. Since I couldn't find them I assumed they were in the 20 that was deleted...

[enfoldedblue]

While this thread could have degenerated into something not very nice, I am really happy to see that with everyone’s contributions it has been able to weave through some quite treacherous waters and ultimately made its way to a refreshing space (IMO). For me what I see here is an example of how we are shifting from an old to a new paradigm. What I see is that the days of following one dogmatic spiritual framework created by one or a few people are ending. People seem to be realizing no one system is completely right, or completely wrong.... there are pieces that may be valuable to some, but not to others. Instead of accepting blanket ideologies we are learning to turn within and accept only what feels useful to us. I think this is important for truly taking back our personal power and autonomy. We are all unique beings and will resonate with different things than the next person, and this is ok...even good. We don’t need to try to convert others to our way of thinking. We will agree on some things and disagree on others (even those who are closest to us in thinking), and we can still be friends, in fact as a whole we will be richer and more dynamic.

Love and thank you to everyone who participated here

[music]

Misconceptions, Bill? A misconception is a very vague notion, and one that generally relies on a fixed viewpoint. If you could demonstrate to me where Jim has corrected my misconceptions, quoting both of us as relevant, I would be grateful, but may well disagree with your assessment.

People replied to this thread Bill, I replied to their replies. That's the way I see most threads working on this site. I also came back to this thread respectfully responding to questions you raised. It's fine if you don't like the answer I gave you, but I don't see how that implies my "keeping the ball in the air"?

Re "clear": Thank you Bill, though based on what you have written here, and the contextual framework within which I have previously used the term "clear", I must admit I am at a loss as to why you felt the need to say this to me ...


Do you really know what 'Clear' means? (I explained in some detail on another thread. Please feed it back to me to check your understanding.)


Do you know how much you know, and how much you don't know? (Please answer this question. You're grandstanding and holding forth as if you know a very great deal. I do not think that you do.)

Based on what you have posted above in relation to "clear", and based on my reply (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=681093&viewfull=1#post681093) to your initial demand (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=680533&viewfull=1#post680533) I don't think I am out of order in requesting an apology from you, or at least some acknowledgement of the effort I expended to satisfy your demands.

I'll quote myself from above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=681093&viewfull=1#post681093), as this is it in a nutshell when we talk about "knowledge"


it is one of the paradoxes of existence that we hold two states simultaneously: we don’t know as much as we think we know – we know much more than we think we know.


ok thanks to both of you ... bill and music ... I now remember why I wanted to keep this thread going ...

music is right ...about her idea that there is another way ...

this is what was my main idea for opening up our other timelines ...

now there is a process that LRH talked about ... if you can get a viewpoint (that what is your I AM that does the viewing for the spirit) ... if you can get this viewpoint 3 feet behind the body the spirit KNOWS how to heal the body even if the viewpoint has forgotten the knowledge of it ...

I took it one more step behind that ... the spirit that is a broken piece off from the main source that is a static but can cause things to be created from that static is aware of all the viewpoints it has created ... ..

so my main idea for coming to this website was this ... if I can shift the viewpoint I am in to the spirit metteyya itself ... the spirit KNOWS how to align all the data of ALL ITS VIEWPOINTS and in my reality of this could correct all of this without vanishing the physical universe ... but free all the viewpoints of their enturbulated thought ...

so music is in another kind of connection .. don't really know what it is .. buddhist or hindu .. don't know ... but I believe she could find a way to source itself with the being she is .. and she would be able to align ALL THE VIEWPOINTS SHE HAS CREATED .. ..

now I don't know how she can do this ... I don't know if she needs to run the command "who is holding my aberrations in place" to locate her other timelines ... and then have to locate the distance she is from each of them ...

maybe she KNOWS ... how to do this ... but it is my idea we can clean it all much faster if we can just move our viewpoint directly into source itself the spirit itself

please tell me what your ideas are on this

jim

Hi Jim, yes, like many of us, I have viewed myself and creation from the perspective of the all, and I have used many tools I gathered along the way to do this. That you and I have "seen" the same thing using different tools is testament to the universal nature of the energy the connects us to source. We are all "God", and we can all access this magic that connects us to our divinity, but once connected truly to divinity, the desire to use this magic for personal gain or displays of ego fades. This is why truly aware people are usually (but not always) poor by the standards of those who deal in worldly things.

Thank you for offering your musings about me, I would like to lovingly offer you some in return. Your energy, as I perceive it, is like arcs of lightning across an endless sky, powerful, but impotent because it connects to nothing. I don't presume to guide you, but I think you would be much more effective in your mission on earth (whatever that may be), if you grounded yourself from time to time. When I studied Kundalini yoga, I had been doing it for six months before my way-shower said "Right, now you are ready to do Kundalini yoga". What had I been doing for the last six months? Preparing, just preparing. Your energy reminds me of a continuous, uncontrolled Kundalini rush out of the top of the head, and this precisely is why I had to have my preparation stage - to learn to guide, use or contain the energy as appropriate. Initially, try to visualise the energy rushing out your head funnelling around and down and entering you again through your feet. Then try to contain the energy within the skull, coiled like a serpent around your brain, then let the energy trickle to earth through your body, healing what needs to be healed along the way.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2T1zy8ov1I

There are many roads to awareness, I wish you love, blessings, and joy on your chosen road, Jim.

[greybeard]

Kundalini awakened spontaneously within about twenty years ago--- I then went to India to spend time with the late Dr Goels who has written three books on the subject,
The standard advice is to let the Shidis go---dont identify with them or you will be stuck in ego as "I am the doer"
At first the side effects were amazing and still can be---they just happen.
Healing happened spontaneously for people.
I had to let go and just let Shakti Kundalini do what it does---(get out of the way of these happenings)
Jesus said "Of myself I do nothing it is the Father within"
A good book
"When you can walk on water take the boat"

We all are equal, we all save the world.
How many enlightened beings does it take to save the world?
ONE.

I identify with a lot of what music conveys.
Once upon a time I was successful.
Now I live in a one bed room house paid for by the State which supports me.
I have all I need.
I dont mind.
That is quiet, peace and silence prevail.
I am fortunate.
All that is the story which I in my essence am not.
Ch

[jiminii]

Misconceptions, Bill? A misconception is a very vague notion, and one that generally relies on a fixed viewpoint. If you could demonstrate to me where Jim has corrected my misconceptions, quoting both of us as relevant, I would be grateful, but may well disagree with your assessment.

People replied to this thread Bill, I replied to their replies. That's the way I see most threads working on this site. I also came back to this thread respectfully responding to questions you raised. It's fine if you don't like the answer I gave you, but I don't see how that implies my "keeping the ball in the air"?

Re "clear": Thank you Bill, though based on what you have written here, and the contextual framework within which I have previously used the term "clear", I must admit I am at a loss as to why you felt the need to say this to me ...


Do you really know what 'Clear' means? (I explained in some detail on another thread. Please feed it back to me to check your understanding.)


Do you know how much you know, and how much you don't know? (Please answer this question. You're grandstanding and holding forth as if you know a very great deal. I do not think that you do.)

Based on what you have posted above in relation to "clear", and based on my reply (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=681093&viewfull=1#post681093) to your initial demand (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=680533&viewfull=1#post680533) I don't think I am out of order in requesting an apology from you, or at least some acknowledgement of the effort I expended to satisfy your demands.

I'll quote myself from above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=681093&viewfull=1#post681093), as this is it in a nutshell when we talk about "knowledge"


it is one of the paradoxes of existence that we hold two states simultaneously: we don’t know as much as we think we know – we know much more than we think we know.


ok thanks to both of you ... bill and music ... I now remember why I wanted to keep this thread going ...

music is right ...about her idea that there is another way ...

this is what was my main idea for opening up our other timelines ...

now there is a process that LRH talked about ... if you can get a viewpoint (that what is your I AM that does the viewing for the spirit) ... if you can get this viewpoint 3 feet behind the body the spirit KNOWS how to heal the body even if the viewpoint has forgotten the knowledge of it ...

I took it one more step behind that ... the spirit that is a broken piece off from the main source that is a static but can cause things to be created from that static is aware of all the viewpoints it has created ... ..

so my main idea for coming to this website was this ... if I can shift the viewpoint I am in to the spirit metteyya itself ... the spirit KNOWS how to align all the data of ALL ITS VIEWPOINTS and in my reality of this could correct all of this without vanishing the physical universe ... but free all the viewpoints of their enturbulated thought ...

so music is in another kind of connection .. don't really know what it is .. buddhist or hindu .. don't know ... but I believe she could find a way to source itself with the being she is .. and she would be able to align ALL THE VIEWPOINTS SHE HAS CREATED .. ..

now I don't know how she can do this ... I don't know if she needs to run the command "who is holding my aberrations in place" to locate her other timelines ... and then have to locate the distance she is from each of them ...

maybe she KNOWS ... how to do this ... but it is my idea we can clean it all much faster if we can just move our viewpoint directly into source itself the spirit itself

please tell me what your ideas are on this

jim

Hi Jim, yes, like many of us, I have viewed myself and creation from the perspective of the all, and I have used many tools I gathered along the way to do this. That you and I have "seen" the same thing using different tools is testament to the universal nature of the energy the connects us to source. We are all "God", and we can all access this magic that connects us to our divinity, but once connected truly to divinity, the desire to use this magic for personal gain or displays of ego fades. This is why truly aware people are usually (but not always) poor by the standards of those who deal in worldly things.

Thank you for offering your musings about me, I would like to lovingly offer you some in return. Your energy, as I perceive it, is like arcs of lightning across an endless sky, powerful, but impotent because it connects to nothing. I don't presume to guide you, but I think you would be much more effective in your mission on earth (whatever that may be), if you grounded yourself from time to time. When I studied Kundalini yoga, I had been doing it for six months before my way-shower said "Right, now you are ready to do Kundalini yoga". What had I been doing for the last six months? Preparing, just preparing. Your energy reminds me of a continuous, uncontrolled Kundalini rush out of the top of the head, and this precisely is why I had to have my preparation stage - to learn to guide, use or contain the energy as appropriate. Initially, try to visualise the energy rushing out your head funnelling around and down and entering you again through your feet. Then try to contain the energy within the skull, coiled like a serpent around your brain, then let the energy trickle to earth through your body, healing what needs to be healed along the way.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2T1zy8ov1I

There are many roads to awareness, I wish you love, blessings, and joy on your chosen road, Jim.

if I try to do this from the words you are speaking it doesn't work .... but if I decided I know what you're talking about .. it seems to work

what do you see now?

jim

[music]

That is the problem with words, Jim, they mean different things to different people. The energy and the intent behind that energy is all. If you go beyond my words, and find the energy of intent within yourself, then we have met in the place where we are all one, and that can only ever be a good thing.

[jiminii]

That is the problem with words, Jim, they mean different things to different people. The energy and the intent behind that energy is all. If you go beyond my words, and find the energy of intent within yourself, then we have met in the place where we are all one, and that can only ever be a good thing.

you know I start to to answer or give my view of what I see is happening .. and it gets going pretty good .. then i accidentally hit some button on this laptop and it wipes out the whole message ...hahahah
ok intent ... back on course hahahah ... the intent is this ... (got to find the words for it again) we are 100 percent responsible for all of it ... now from this viewpoint this means we would have to bring everything back to zero ... but that is such a waste .. if we bring it back to where we can work with it and start from there .. like bring it back to having a physical universe that we can play with but have all the others up to a point where we all can create in it on an equal bases ... maybe some of us just want to go back to the static and be all knowing and all powerful and in forever serenity ... but ... no games being played ... have to step out of the static if you want to play games ... so if we bring everyone back to a point where we can start a new create with the same planetary system ( I think they are already doing this) .. and if that is true this whole game could change to all these meat bodies being changed to a more suitable body for a spirit to operate in with more of his awareness not hidden between 3d and 4d .. but all in 4d .. using 3d as a playground ... something like that ..

so I get the idea of this metteyya placing viewpoints all up and down this time track .. and what does this do ..??? we undo those things that evolved at various times that got us in such a mess ... now ... we just have this time track more or less in suspension and we go up and down and change all these parts ...now ... these things we change are changed in their specific time frame ... because we can go back there we can change a piece of it .. and pieces of it all up and down ... now ... in one sweep ... we roll it all together .. and undo this pain stimulus universe we have into a universe that we can live forever in bodies that don't die and we can do whatever we want ... if we just want to study ... like to be a pilot on space ship .. we can just study that for 500 years and then we go out and be a space pilot .. we can pick whatever game we would like to play in this universe and do it ...

and that is what I think we are doing ...now one spirit has many viewpoints and all these other spirits with their many viewpoints ... all working together in the future from base 2 to clean up the entire time track without destroying the things we created like stars and planets ...

for example .. we had a huge 8.1 earthquake north of Japan .. but no tsunamis happened ... these people moving from the coast thinking the volcano would happen didn't happen ...all these predictions that were suppose to happen in last maybe 5 or more years ... didn't happen ...

so if we are getting big earthquakes .. and no tsunamis than it has already started

do you see what I mean

if they are auditing us from the future doesn't change what our position in life is now ... only removes the entheta and turns it back into theta ...

that is what I think is happening

what do you see from this idea?

jim

[gripreaper]

"When you can walk on water take the boat"

That's awesome. Can I use that at the bottom of all my posts?

[greybeard]

"When you can walk on water take the boat"

That's awesome. Can I use that at the bottom of all my posts?
Hi Gripreaper

Feel free, it is the name of a book.


Basically the story is as best I remember.

The master had a student and every now and then the student would go away for a while and practice some discovered technique and come back to show the master --the master would smile and say nothing.
After twenty years or so the student demonstrated that he could walk on water.
The master said more or less.
You have wasted twenty years learning to walk on water when you could have taken the boat.
The inference too is that, the student could do marvellous things but still did not know who is actually doing these things ie who he really is.
God pretending to be a student.

Chris

[greybeard]

There is a difference between cleverness and wisdom.
Be still and know that "I AM" God.

[jiminii]

"When you can walk on water take the boat"

That's awesome. Can I use that at the bottom of all my posts?

well the good thing is ... when I do get that ability back again ... I can just walk back and forth between China and USA and get a better view of the sea ...

jim

maybe I can change it to float ... at high speeds ....hahahah

[Sebastion]

Tell ya all what I am gonna do.......Since I can run faster than I can row, methinks I will tie a rope to the boat and run as fast as I can away from these and similar threads. I have seen and read enough to know that is my best of choices.......with any luck, I will catch a fast moving wave too!







"When you can walk on water take the boat"

That's awesome. Can I use that at the bottom of all my posts?
Hi Gripreaper

Feel free, it is the name of a book.


Basically the story is as best I remember.

The master had a student and every now and then the student would go away for a while and practice some discovered technique and come back to show the master --the master would smile and say nothing.
After twenty years or so the student demonstrated that he could walk on water.
The master said more or less.
You have wasted twenty years learning to walk on water when you could have taken the boat.
The inference too is that, the student could do marvellous things but still did not know who is actually doing these things ie who he really is.
God pretending to be a student.

Chris

[jiminii]

Tell ya all what I am gonna do.......Since I can run faster than I can row, methinks I will tie a rope to the boat and run as fast as I can away from these and similar threads. I have seen and read enough to know that is my best of choices.......with any luck, I will catch a fast moving wave too!






"When you can walk on water take the boat"

That's awesome. Can I use that at the bottom of all my posts?
Hi Gripreaper

Feel free, it is the name of a book.


Basically the story is as best I remember.

The master had a student and every now and then the student would go away for a while and practice some discovered technique and come back to show the master --the master would smile and say nothing.
After twenty years or so the student demonstrated that he could walk on water.
The master said more or less.
You have wasted twenty years learning to walk on water when you could have taken the boat.
The inference too is that, the student could do marvellous things but still did not know who is actually doing these things ie who he really is.
God pretending to be a student.

Chris


it is easier to use a sky hook ... throw it up and hook on to the sky and wait for the next wind to show up

jim

[music]

While this thread could have degenerated into something not very nice, I am really happy to see that with everyone’s contributions it has been able to weave through some quite treacherous waters and ultimately made its way to a refreshing space (IMO). For me what I see here is an example of how we are shifting from an old to a new paradigm. What I see is that the days of following one dogmatic spiritual framework created by one or a few people are ending. People seem to be realizing no one system is completely right, or completely wrong.... there are pieces that may be valuable to some, but not to others. Instead of accepting blanket ideologies we are learning to turn within and accept only what feels useful to us. I think this is important for truly taking back our personal power and autonomy. We are all unique beings and will resonate with different things than the next person, and this is ok...even good. We don’t need to try to convert others to our way of thinking. We will agree on some things and disagree on others (even those who are closest to us in thinking), and we can still be friends, in fact as a whole we will be richer and more dynamic.

Love and thank you to everyone who participated here

Thanks enfoldedblue, we are blessed to have your wisdom here with us. Even though I may be accussed of bias, I am sure many will echo that sentiment in the hearts.

[music]

That is the problem with words, Jim, they mean different things to different people. The energy and the intent behind that energy is all. If you go beyond my words, and find the energy of intent within yourself, then we have met in the place where we are all one, and that can only ever be a good thing.

you know I start to to answer or give my view of what I see is happening .. and it gets going pretty good .. then i accidentally hit some button on this laptop and it wipes out the whole message ...hahahah
ok intent ... back on course hahahah ... the intent is this ... (got to find the words for it again) we are 100 percent responsible for all of it ... now from this viewpoint this means we would have to bring everything back to zero ... but that is such a waste .. if we bring it back to where we can work with it and start from there .. like bring it back to having a physical universe that we can play with but have all the others up to a point where we all can create in it on an equal bases ... maybe some of us just want to go back to the static and be all knowing and all powerful and in forever serenity ... but ... no games being played ... have to step out of the static if you want to play games ... so if we bring everyone back to a point where we can start a new create with the same planetary system ( I think they are already doing this) .. and if that is true this whole game could change to all these meat bodies being changed to a more suitable body for a spirit to operate in with more of his awareness not hidden between 3d and 4d .. but all in 4d .. using 3d as a playground ... something like that ..

so I get the idea of this metteyya placing viewpoints all up and down this time track .. and what does this do ..??? we undo those things that evolved at various times that got us in such a mess ... now ... we just have this time track more or less in suspension and we go up and down and change all these parts ...now ... these things we change are changed in their specific time frame ... because we can go back there we can change a piece of it .. and pieces of it all up and down ... now ... in one sweep ... we roll it all together .. and undo this pain stimulus universe we have into a universe that we can live forever in bodies that don't die and we can do whatever we want ... if we just want to study ... like to be a pilot on space ship .. we can just study that for 500 years and then we go out and be a space pilot .. we can pick whatever game we would like to play in this universe and do it ...

and that is what I think we are doing ...now one spirit has many viewpoints and all these other spirits with their many viewpoints ... all working together in the future from base 2 to clean up the entire time track without destroying the things we created like stars and planets ...

for example .. we had a huge 8.1 earthquake north of Japan .. but no tsunamis happened ... these people moving from the coast thinking the volcano would happen didn't happen ...all these predictions that were suppose to happen in last maybe 5 or more years ... didn't happen ...

so if we are getting big earthquakes .. and no tsunamis than it has already started

do you see what I mean

if they are auditing us from the future doesn't change what our position in life is now ... only removes the entheta and turns it back into theta ...

that is what I think is happening

what do you see from this idea?

jim

What do I see of this Jim? I see that that no, you and I are not meeting in the place where we are all one at all. That is OK though, you have your journey, not mine. I also see, like LRH, you have this strange addiction to what I would call “unhealthy gamesmanship”. I am not attacking you, you have merely strayed again into the realm of “why dianetics (and all things LRH related) are not for me”, so you must be prepared for the harvest. It’s not that I dislike you Jim – I don’t – you have a childlike quality that I admire, and on occasion aspire to myself. I think (my opinion here) that you are misguided, and wasting your innate abilities.

Games and LRH

LRH had an unhealthy obsession with games in my opinion. Games in society are generally played from the sociopathic perspective to encourage division and adversarial behaviour. A game, in society, implies a winner and a loser. This is EXCLUSIVE behaviour, not INCLUSIVE behaviour, and is a symptom of the SOCIOPATH.

L. Ron Hubbard: Tape lecture: A BRAND-NEW TYPE OF AUDITING

“I just like to win, see?”

HCO POLICY LETTER OF 18 APRIL 1965, CONTESTS AND PRIZES

There is no greater game in the universe than Scientology, for it is the only game in which everybody wins. And that places it far above all other games and makes it the game of games where everybody gets the ultimate prize of self-and sound companionship as well.


Everyone who is a Scientologist, that is

L. Ron Hubbard: Tape lecture: GAMES CONDITIONS VS. NO GAMES CONDITIONS, 1 September 1956

It’s a hideous thing to realize that man’s search for truth was bound to failure. It could not have been possible for man to discover truth since the totality of the barriers which lie between him and truth consist of games, lies, difficulties, and unless he goes in a game condition, unless he goes into a condition of nonfactuality, he never arrives in a condition of truth.

Sounds like a sociopath to me, sorry.

Source for above quotes: Portrait of a Sociopath (http://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/portrait-of-a-sociopath/)

Below is a quote (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?58563-10-Signs-for-Spotting-a-Sociopath&p=666601&viewfull=1#post666601) from Avalon member DouglasDanger in a thread discussing sociopaths and games:


When they are attempting to teach thier brand of sociopathy is when you learn where when and by whom thier sociopathic button was pressed, once pressed it cannot be easily turned off, as it is an off button to begin with, you turn off your caring for anything else but yourself... But IMHO it is a button or switch that is pressed or turned off, Not something you are born with. We learn to become a sociopath from our mothers and fathers, aunts and uncles grandfathers and grand mothers.... It is labeled " family tradition" most of the time it is hidden..( competition and sport is an in your face display of training for sociopaths, " you must be number one, must be the smartest, must be the the most liked and popular, you must be the best"..). This would explain why certain families generation after generation have so many prominant sociopaths and psycopaths. It is something they have been teaching thier offspring for many generations..

Below is a post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?58681-Sport-and-the-Military-Mind) from me on sport, where the corporate and the military mind are compared. The corporate mind, by the way, is the sociopathic mind illustrated here, also called the slave-owner mind:

When I was a youngster I joined my local rugby league team as soon as I was old enough. My coach was a big guy, 6’ 6”, ex-special services, Vietnam vet. All in all, a scary looking guy but with a heart of gold. We were the poor kids, housing commission homes, cheap boots and uniforms but we did very well thank you in the local comp with the other poor kids. Next year they put us in the wider comp, lowest division, our coach came with us, and we blitzed every game, with scores of 135 to nil being common. We went straight into the top league then, us and our coach, playing the rich kids, who had all the gear and were driven by the ferocious support of their high achieving parents. It was a tough year, but finally after much struggle, and some broken bones due to the dirty play of society’s future leaders, we reached the grand final.

Before the game, our coach sat before us and said: “You know boys, it doesn’t matter what happens today – you have worked hard, bucked the odds, and just getting this far is a victory in itself. The side we are playing are the hardest, dirtiest side going, and even if we lose, remember that you are all winners. Play hard, but play fair, and know that no matter what happens out on the field, I love each and every one of you for the courage you have displayed by getting here today.”

The game was the hardest we had played so far. The other team was so psyched, and so driven by the screaming of their deranged parental units, that they began to become rattled each time we held them from the line. The abuse from their coach and parents was shameful, and they became flustered, fumbling passes, missing chances, and then shaking and turning on each other. We calmly and quietly took control of the field, and each success from us earned these kids more abuse. The more pressure and abuse they got, the more mistakes they made. We had trained hard, and were disciplined, and eventually – inevitably - the day was ours. Our coach, the toughest guy I have probably ever seen, had tears in his eyes as he congratulated us. We felt like we were on top of the world. Not all of us kids learned a lesson that day, but I know I sure as hell did.

We were trained by the military mind, the rich kids were trained by the business mind. We maintained respect for our foes, they had none. They felt they had to win at all costs, we just wanted to do our best. I always try to remember that most people who join the military are decent folk who do so for the best of reasons. I am confident that these people will be the ones who will fight our corner when (or if) the slave-owner mind makes its final move. All is well, the bulk of humanity may be brainwashed or deceived, but at heart, they are decent people.

[johnf]

While this thread could have degenerated into something not very nice, I am really happy to see that with everyone’s contributions it has been able to weave through some quite treacherous waters and ultimately made its way to a refreshing space (IMO). For me what I see here is an example of how we are shifting from an old to a new paradigm. What I see is that the days of following one dogmatic spiritual framework created by one or a few people are ending. People seem to be realizing no one system is completely right, or completely wrong.... there are pieces that may be valuable to some, but not to others. Instead of accepting blanket ideologies we are learning to turn within and accept only what feels useful to us. I think this is important for truly taking back our personal power and autonomy. We are all unique beings and will resonate with different things than the next person, and this is ok...even good. We don’t need to try to convert others to our way of thinking. We will agree on some things and disagree on others (even those who are closest to us in thinking), and we can still be friends, in fact as a whole we will be richer and more dynamic.

Love and thank you to everyone who participated here

Thanks enfoldedblue, we are blessed to have your wisdom here with us. Even though I may be accussed of bias, I am sure many will echo that sentiment in the hearts.

I agree wholeheartedly with Enfoldedblue as far as the goodness of what is happening in this thread.
I have had many experiences down through the years that have enhanced my awareness of being,(static), many were of the dianetics etc variety, many specifically of the Ron's org variety, and many many that came out of the eastern modes of thought.

There is a between that permeates all realities, all thought systems, I work toward remembering more deeply that all this is happening to no one, and try to apply it to the daily life that shows up in front of me, (an apparent me).

I would love to see this dialog continue in earnest, I think it might open up a space where something new will emerge, and I believe Jimini has stated he would like to see that too. Donk made a comment earlier about going beyond systems, and perhaps there is a conversation showing up here that is too big for this thread, or maybe it will show up here. Lets go deeper?

jf

[Bill Ryan]

L. Ron Hubbard: Tape lecture: A BRAND-NEW TYPE OF AUDITING

“I just like to win, see?”

-- plus a lot of other stuff that music copied and pasted from elsewhere without understanding it properly! --





http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22like+to+win%22+site%3Abrainyquote.com

:)

[Agape]

Weird. Hello Bill :cheer2:( hope he takes me with reserves rather than pinch of salt, earthly salt in unhealthy ) ..

Do you know Ramana Maharishi ? I'm sure you've heard of him, some of you did . He achieved clear realisation as 16 year old during sudden Near to Death experience.
Found he's not 'this body' . Since then he meditated quietly on the hill of Arunachala, lost in immense bliss they say .
He probably achieved still deeper realisations in course of his life considering he spent most time in meditation .

I've been in Ramanshram in 1993 , and there was still, palpable feeling of peace in the hall where he used to sit last years of his life .

He did not live to give complicated lectures on nature of mind or debate with pundits , all were mercilessly shot down by his brief questions and comments on ''Who is the one who asks me those questions ?''

He refused to ask manuals or accept organisations being formed on his behalf ,
yet ..
there are thousands of people coming to his ashram and Arunachala mountain to this day .

It says, turn your mind inwards , the watcher, the watched and the process of watching are all in you .
You do not need any e-meter to observe what is happening in your mind.

In Buddhist and also Hindu and various older meditation techniques you do just that. It's a well known secret, literally . You can consider a secret if you don't practise and more than if you never try.

See one thing, e-meters are for all the worldly people who can not turn their mind inwards without help . Some try drugs, others mind machines, still others acupuncture or martial arts.. most of these, turn your mind upside down but little inwards .

You see even all these ex-scientologists and also the buzz inside their halls ? They're very much like the everyday people you meet in the supermarket , lost in ordinary matters. That's why, e-meter appeals to them, it's a simple thing.


Secondly, remember Mahatma Gandhi . He but repeated what was written in Vedas, long ago ..

Ahimsa Paramo Dharmo . The highest religion is non-violence .

Of all the religions, laws and practises, non-violence is the most noble dharma.

Hope that says all.


And then, H.H.Dalailama says repeatedly, the true nature of our mind is love and compassion. Think of others first before self . It's a good exercise untill it becomes a habit .
It makes you naturally much less selfish . Others care not whether you're enlightened or not, what is important to them is whether they can get enlightened by you.
Think how to be useful. At the end you will discover great secret, the true nature of your mind ..


There is Jnana Yoga, Path of Knowledge, Bhakti Yoga , Path of Devotion, there's Karma Yoga, the Path of Selfless Service ( that's what we do ) ,
and there's Samadhi Yoga , the Path of Direct Insight .

Within the Raja Yoga all other yogas exist, that's why Raja Yoga surpasses the previous .

Beyond that, so called unsurpassable yoga tantras, most sacred collections of teachings and practises, focus solely on workings of your Mind.
Finding and establishing connection between Mind and Energy ,

beyond the hope of CERN scientists,

the yogi of old achieved union of mind and matter .


His electrons, protons and neutrons spinning back to their photonic state of existence yogi turned his body to Light
remained there for few seconds
and decided to come back
to visit other living beings .



Where is the state of technology else than in your own mind :confused:





ET:behindsofa:

[jiminii]

That is the problem with words, Jim, they mean different things to different people. The energy and the intent behind that energy is all. If you go beyond my words, and find the energy of intent within yourself, then we have met in the place where we are all one, and that can only ever be a good thing.

you know I start to to answer or give my view of what I see is happening .. and it gets going pretty good .. then i accidentally hit some button on this laptop and it wipes out the whole message ...hahahah
ok intent ... back on course hahahah ... the intent is this ... (got to find the words for it again) we are 100 percent responsible for all of it ... now from this viewpoint this means we would have to bring everything back to zero ... but that is such a waste .. if we bring it back to where we can work with it and start from there .. like bring it back to having a physical universe that we can play with but have all the others up to a point where we all can create in it on an equal bases ... maybe some of us just want to go back to the static and be all knowing and all powerful and in forever serenity ... but ... no games being played ... have to step out of the static if you want to play games ... so if we bring everyone back to a point where we can start a new create with the same planetary system ( I think they are already doing this) .. and if that is true this whole game could change to all these meat bodies being changed to a more suitable body for a spirit to operate in with more of his awareness not hidden between 3d and 4d .. but all in 4d .. using 3d as a playground ... something like that ..

so I get the idea of this metteyya placing viewpoints all up and down this time track .. and what does this do ..??? we undo those things that evolved at various times that got us in such a mess ... now ... we just have this time track more or less in suspension and we go up and down and change all these parts ...now ... these things we change are changed in their specific time frame ... because we can go back there we can change a piece of it .. and pieces of it all up and down ... now ... in one sweep ... we roll it all together .. and undo this pain stimulus universe we have into a universe that we can live forever in bodies that don't die and we can do whatever we want ... if we just want to study ... like to be a pilot on space ship .. we can just study that for 500 years and then we go out and be a space pilot .. we can pick whatever game we would like to play in this universe and do it ...

and that is what I think we are doing ...now one spirit has many viewpoints and all these other spirits with their many viewpoints ... all working together in the future from base 2 to clean up the entire time track without destroying the things we created like stars and planets ...

for example .. we had a huge 8.1 earthquake north of Japan .. but no tsunamis happened ... these people moving from the coast thinking the volcano would happen didn't happen ...all these predictions that were suppose to happen in last maybe 5 or more years ... didn't happen ...

so if we are getting big earthquakes .. and no tsunamis than it has already started

do you see what I mean

if they are auditing us from the future doesn't change what our position in life is now ... only removes the entheta and turns it back into theta ...

that is what I think is happening

what do you see from this idea?

jim

What do I see of this Jim? I see that that no, you and I are not meeting in the place where we are all one at all. That is OK though, you have your journey, not mine. I also see, like LRH, you have this strange addiction to what I would call “unhealthy gamesmanship”. I am not attacking you, you have merely strayed again into the realm of “why dianetics (and all things LRH related) are not for me”, so you must be prepared for the harvest. It’s not that I dislike you Jim – I don’t – you have a childlike quality that I admire, and on occasion aspire to myself. I think (my opinion here) that you are misguided, and wasting your innate abilities.

Games and LRH

LRH had an unhealthy obsession with games in my opinion. Games in society are generally played from the sociopathic perspective to encourage division and adversarial behaviour. A game, in society, implies a winner and a loser. This is EXCLUSIVE behaviour, not INCLUSIVE behaviour, and is a symptom of the SOCIOPATH.

L. Ron Hubbard: Tape lecture: A BRAND-NEW TYPE OF AUDITING

“I just like to win, see?”

HCO POLICY LETTER OF 18 APRIL 1965, CONTESTS AND PRIZES

There is no greater game in the universe than Scientology, for it is the only game in which everybody wins. And that places it far above all other games and makes it the game of games where everybody gets the ultimate prize of self-and sound companionship as well.


Everyone who is a Scientologist, that is

L. Ron Hubbard: Tape lecture: GAMES CONDITIONS VS. NO GAMES CONDITIONS, 1 September 1956

It’s a hideous thing to realize that man’s search for truth was bound to failure. It could not have been possible for man to discover truth since the totality of the barriers which lie between him and truth consist of games, lies, difficulties, and unless he goes in a game condition, unless he goes into a condition of nonfactuality, he never arrives in a condition of truth.

Sounds like a sociopath to me, sorry.

Source for above quotes: Portrait of a Sociopath (http://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/portrait-of-a-sociopath/)

Below is a quote (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?58563-10-Signs-for-Spotting-a-Sociopath&p=666601&viewfull=1#post666601) from Avalon member DouglasDanger in a thread discussing sociopaths and games:


When they are attempting to teach thier brand of sociopathy


I am not in this sociopath ... idea either or I wouldn't be back here trying to fix this thing ... I am back here trying to clean something that got missed and it is somewhere between this western and eastern think ...

if I go in to scientology .. it is ALL GAME .. but it is someone else's game ..and they will try to convince me it is my game .. the only game in town .. but it is not .. it is spending your entire life trying to play this game where nothing else matters ... it doesn't allow others to have a different viewpoint .. (don't mix practices) .. doesn't allow experience ... and it is all TOO mechanical ... but if I am go go into scienotlogy or free zone .. only ... I am going to lose half the planet ... it is like going to an american party .... I hate american parties ... everyone is in competition to own and be the CENTER of the table ... if I try to get in something I want to say ... these clever people with all there cleaver words .. will quickly find a way to kick you out of the game ... and I prefer going to a Japanese party where the pass the conversation to others and try not to leave anyone out ... spent a lot of time trying to figure out what made japan so powerful .. this shinto religion ... and I managed to find something that was written about it .. though Meiji some past emperor never would allow shinto to be interpreted ... it has to be learned in their pantomime theaters and the way of natural understanding ... the thing I found that made it what it is is this ... "the japanese believe they are all potential gods ... so they want to try to do everything perfect ... because they believe this will bring them closer to god" ... and I could not figure out their culture .. because no one will give opinions and I finally found a girl who would tell me she said, "japan wants harmony .. so we don't give opinions because it will make people argue ... we don't talk about religion or politics and especially BASEBALL" ... and that answered it ... "don't work in the city go work in the country .... and you learn this country is so powerful because they literally operate off postulates ... this gam bat dai ... with no american translation ... it is something like "go for it" but not exactly more like "YOU CAN DO IT SO DO YOUR BEST " something like this ... they go for the end thing the result and if someone finds something that works EVERYONE must do it ... ... and that is Japan ... there are other countries with cultures think that keeps it surviving ..like thailand ... the smiling country ... it is the only country that was never conquered by a western power ... along with the seminole Indians in the swaps of Florida .. USA never was able to conquer them so they have a nation all their own ... separate from USA ...
there is this oneness of thinking that allows all to think their own way and still fit in the society ... but the Americans and Western countries do not respect the eastern ways ... and I have to face these countries and be able to say "I am not like that"

the first time I come to Thailand I am invited by the man of the house to the prostitution house. I ask him "why do you bring me here?" .. he says, "isn't this what americans do?" .. I said, "I don't know .. I never met anyone that goes to those places and probably they would be embarrassed to tell anyone they would go there .. but ... they have a lot of prostitution houses in Nevada ..so I suppose some people go there ..." and that is how they view us because apparently all western societies come here to sleep with the thai and they will trick anyone into believing it is long term trying to see if they can get some innocent clean girl ... to fall for the trap ... there is no respect ... they look at these asian like they are just another animal they can play with ... and they make me look bad"

so that is the difference

jim

[lakewatcher]

Hello music,

Setting aside, for the purposes of this post, your assessment of Dianetics, which I'm simply not qualified to evaluate at this point, I'd like to make a comment about another aspect of your OP. In your post, one of the important themes you deal with, it seems to me, is the difference between feeling based, relational consciousness vs. logical, non feeling based, separational consciousness, though you use slightly different terms for these in your post. In the works of Joseph Chilton Pearce, he deals rather extensively with these two approaches to consciousness and their implications for human life and our future. If you are not already familiar with Pearce's work, you might find it interesting to examine what he has to say on this subject.

Namaste

[gripreaper]

perhaps there is a conversation showing up here that is too big for this thread, or maybe it will show up here. Lets go deeper? jf

Well, the context would need to include the severed synapses between the right and left brain, both the conscious and superconscious, the limbic system, and the glandular system, and the etheric body central column and e chakra energy centers. The Pineal gland is the master gland, and the elixirs secreted by this gland trickle down into the other glandular systems and activate them towards the bodies ability to fully receive stimuli. Also, there is the etheric body, the electrical/magnetic chakra system, which is connected to the emotional body, and the visceral brainstem.

Some have postulated, once you are fully integrated there is no longer any need for the adrenals since they are used as the fight of flight survival response and this is the gland which causes aging. Also bretharian's have the ability to draw life force from the air and no longer need to extract life force from organic matter. A fully integrated auric field also gives one the ability to open up to the more subtle senses, which do exist, and no longer be dependent of the five physical senses to determine reality and phenomenon.

So, in order to fully experience a state of Samadhi, one must fully integrate all of the transmitter/receiver aspects and, of course, clear the imbalances. With 85% of the world stuck in the fear based survival mechanisms of the first chakra and the need to feed the body organic matter in order to survive, we as a species have a long way to go. Dianetics is a good tool to help these people.

For those who have good grounding in their first chakra, are able to generate life force in the second, husband it, magnify it, and emanate it consciously towards an empathic creation, using their personal power of the third chakra, while transmuting all energy through the heart, can and do access their higher senses and their soul voice, vision and connection to source.

Those who follow the secret and attempt to create in duality get both aspects, both the positive and negative polarities. You may get that new Ferrari you want by intention, but you will most likely wreck it in a very obscure way.

I know of very few people who have integrated their systems enough to be able to create through the heart. This is essential, as we do not want creators who use nefarious techniques and protocols to further an agenda. In the heart, there is no agenda.

[lakewatcher]

perhaps there is a conversation showing up here that is too big for this thread, or maybe it will show up here. Lets go deeper? jf

Well, the context would need to include the severed synapses between the right and left brain, both the conscious and superconscious, the limbic system, and the glandular system, and the etheric body central column and e chakra energy centers. The Pineal gland is the master gland, and the elixirs secreted by this gland trickle down into the other glandular systems and activate them towards the bodies ability to fully receive stimuli. Also, there is the etheric body, the electrical/magnetic chakra system, which is connected to the emotional body, and the visceral brainstem.

Some have postulated, once you are fully integrated there is no longer any need for the adrenals since they are used as the fight of flight survival response and this is the gland which causes aging. Also bretharian's have the ability to draw life force from the air and no longer need to extract life force from organic matter. A fully integrated auric field also gives one the ability to open up to the more subtle senses, which do exist, and no longer be dependent of the five physical senses to determine reality and phenomenon.

So, in order to fully experience a state of Samadhi, one must fully integrate all of the transmitter/receiver aspects and, of course, clear the imbalances. With 85% of the world stuck in the fear based survival mechanisms of the first chakra and the need to feed the body organic matter in order to survive, we as a species have a long way to go. Dianetics is a good tool to help these people.

For those who have good grounding in their first chakra, are able to generate life force in the second, husband it, magnify it, and emanate it consciously towards an empathic creation, using their personal power of the third chakra, while transmuting all energy through the heart, can and do access their higher senses and their soul voice, vision and connection to source.

Those who follow the secret and attempt to create in duality get both aspects, both the positive and negative polarities. You may get that new Ferrari you want by intention, but you will most likely wreck it in a very obscure way.

I know of very few people who have integrated their systems enough to be able to create through the heart. This is essential, as we do not want creators who use nefarious techniques and protocols to further an agenda. In the heart, there is no agenda.


Very well said gripreaper. IMHO

[music]

L. Ron Hubbard: Tape lecture: A BRAND-NEW TYPE OF AUDITING

“I just like to win, see?”

-- plus a lot of other stuff that music copied and pasted from elsewhere without understanding it properly! --





http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22like+to+win%22+site%3Abrainyquote.com

:)

Well, that link takes me to a google search page, with a load of quotes on page one, but none relevant. Bill, if you would like to take the time to explain those quotes better, with a solid link, and put them in a wider context, I would be more than happy to read and consider them. I will also search that site for myself later too, after I have cooked dinner for my family.

Thanks.

edit: just searched brainyquote for "I like to win, see" L Ron Hubbard, with no hits. I'll need a little more detail thanks Bill. If you have nothing, perhaps another request for an apology wouldn't be out of line considering yet again you are denigrating my understanding without providing any concrete evidence?

[greybeard]

Im with Agape---see its simple--mind complicates---mind cant get it
As my first avatar I used the picture of Ramana--- I read his books before there was Eckhart Tolle with The Power of Now
Eckhart had respect for Ramana to the degree that he spent time on his ashram.

Ramana said "Use the thorn to remove the thorn then throw both away"
So yes the intellect is used then discarded.
The mind loves stories but at its ego root it is a separation device --thats what it does.

Chris

[jiminii]

L. Ron Hubbard: Tape lecture: A BRAND-NEW TYPE OF AUDITING

“I just like to win, see?”

-- plus a lot of other stuff that music copied and pasted from elsewhere without understanding it properly! --





http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22like+to+win%22+site%3Abrainyquote.com

:)

Well, that link takes me to a google search page, with a load of quotes on page one, but none relevant. Bill, if you would like to take the time to explain those quotes better, with a solid link, and put them in a wider context, I would be more than happy to read and consider them. I will also search that site for myself later too, after I have cooked dinner for my family.

Thanks.

edit: just searched brainyquote for "I like to win, see" L Ron Hubbard, with no hits. I'll need a little more detail thanks Bill. If you have nothing, perhaps another request for an apology wouldn't be out of line considering yet again you are denigrating my understanding without providing any concrete evidence?

I was curious about the chakras .. isn't that something you do ... I want to know what I have to do ... that would get me to source itself ... there must be a way .. the last out of body was in that UFO and it is possible they set me up to NOT get out of the body ... to learn this thing and I once had telepathy and could sit in a one hour conversation with someone and both of us would suddenly be surprised at the same time realizing we did the conversations and the lips were not moving .. so we went back and checked everything we talked about and we were talking a long time with no lips moving ...

I am not trying to get into endless points of discussions of who knows what ... I would like you to help me find a way I can get to source in the static itself so I can possibly be able to see all these viewpoints I created .. I know I have them .. I already located them but how do I get out of this viewpoint and switch to the creator itself ...

can we do this .. some of you must have had something like it .. I have been to the void when I was being audited and found I was not regressing but literally switching from this time period to that one .. I have been verified by someone on this site in free zone that it is one of the OT levels and I can go completely out of this physical universe to the void itself .. but I want to do it and be able to stay there long enough to look and see how to put all this together ...

jim

[Swan]

... I want to know what I have to do ... that would get me to source itself ... there must be a way ..
jim

Hello Jim,

Sorry to be repeating myself, but take a look at this thread http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?51152-The-Secret-Of-The-Soul-and-OBE

[Finefeather]

Ramana said "Use the thorn to remove the thorn then throw both away"
So yes the intellect is used then discarded.
The mind loves stories but at its ego root it is a separation device --thats what it does.

Chris
Hi Chris
I do not understand what is been hinted at here but I do not think we can exist without intellect.
Consciousness is what we are basically, and this includes the intellect (ability to reason and understand)
It might be useful to extrapolate on these words by realizing that reasoning...or lack of reasoning...is the very thing which causes conflict in many people lives.

The mind is only as productive or destructive as the quality of it's reasoning.

I do not say 'Ramana'...do not know him...is wrong...I just cannot imagine he would be so ignorant to belief that we should discard the intellect.
People like to say we should live from the heart...or something like that...BUT...what they fail to see or understand is that real LOVE comes from reasoning.
When we begin to understand what life is really about and who we really are...and this can only come from reasoned knowledge...only then is it truly possible to Love unconditionally...before that we are just going through the motions which we think is love. Just ask yourself..."Why do I Love?"

Take care
Ray

[greybeard]

Ramana said "Use the thorn to remove the thorn then throw both away"
So yes the intellect is used then discarded.
The mind loves stories but at its ego root it is a separation device --thats what it does.

Chris
Hi Chris
I do not understand what is been hinted at here but I do not think we can exist without intellect.
Consciousness is what we are basically, and this includes the intellect (ability to reason and understand)
It might be useful to extrapolate on these words by realizing that reasoning...or lack of reasoning...is the very thing which causes conflict in many people lives.

The mind is only as productive or destructive as the quality of it's reasoning.

I do not say 'Ramana'...do not know him...is wrong...I just cannot imagine he would be so ignorant to belief that we should discard the intellect.
People like to say we should live from the heart...or something like that...BUT...what they fail to see or understand is that real LOVE comes from reasoning.
When we begin to understand what life is really about and who we really are...and this can only come from reasoned knowledge...only then is it truly possible to Love unconditionally...before that we are just going through the motions which we think is love. Just ask yourself..."Why do I Love?"

Take care
Ray


Yes Ray I possibly used intellect inappropriately
Ramana meant mind.
He is one of the most respected enlightened Indian Sages and what is helpful is that he is recent so reports of him and translations are very accurate.

http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/

With Love
Chris

[eaglespirit]

In the heart, there is no agenda.

And THAT IS THAT...Simply LIVE It, Consistently and Persistently...and Everything and Everyone All Around You Changes to a Higher Chord...One Way or Another the Music will eventually be heard and They will find Their Own Dance...and the Beat goes on and on and on and ON...Passing Itself On, Naturally!!!

[Finefeather]

Ramana meant mind.

Hi Chris
Yes...mind...what a mysterious thing...:)
I have experienced that your mind and my mind and everyone else's mind are all the same thing...there is no mind which is exclusive to any one person.
This is the same as consciousness...there is only one consciousness...which is the consciousness of the collective creation...whatever that might be.
We each add to it and become aware of it as we evolve and are able to grasp it more fully...until one day we achieve cosmic consciousness and then there is the next level.
Mind is the same it just depends how we make use of the little we know.

Much love to you too brother
Ray

[gigha]

DuufZCPoO80 Just how i feel at the moment. Sorry for any confusion
:)

[eaglespirit]

can we do this .. some of you must have had something like it .. I have been to the void when I was being audited and found I was not regressing but literally switching from this time period to that one .. I have been verified by someone on this site in free zone that it is one of the OT levels and I can go completely out of this physical universe to the void itself .. but I want to do it and be able to stay there long enough to look and see how to put all this together ...

jim

Just a thought, Jim

Try a San Pedro Cactus Ceremony with Someone that is practiced in it...
imho, it is best to be involved in the preparing and boiling prior to ceremony as to be integrated in the whole process.

There are other plants, as you know, but this has been my medicine of connection.

Wishing You Well!

[music]

L. Ron Hubbard: Tape lecture: A BRAND-NEW TYPE OF AUDITING

“I just like to win, see?”

-- plus a lot of other stuff that music copied and pasted from elsewhere without understanding it properly! --





http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22like+to+win%22+site%3Abrainyquote.com

:)

Well, that link takes me to a google search page, with a load of quotes on page one, but none relevant. Bill, if you would like to take the time to explain those quotes better, with a solid link, and put them in a wider context, I would be more than happy to read and consider them. I will also search that site for myself later too, after I have cooked dinner for my family.

Thanks.

edit: just searched brainyquote for "I like to win, see" L Ron Hubbard, with no hits. I'll need a little more detail thanks Bill. If you have nothing, perhaps another request for an apology wouldn't be out of line considering yet again you are denigrating my understanding without providing any concrete evidence?

I was curious about the chakras .. isn't that something you do ... I want to know what I have to do ... that would get me to source itself ... there must be a way .. the last out of body was in that UFO and it is possible they set me up to NOT get out of the body ... to learn this thing and I once had telepathy and could sit in a one hour conversation with someone and both of us would suddenly be surprised at the same time realizing we did the conversations and the lips were not moving .. so we went back and checked everything we talked about and we were talking a long time with no lips moving ...

I am not trying to get into endless points of discussions of who knows what ... I would like you to help me find a way I can get to source in the static itself so I can possibly be able to see all these viewpoints I created .. I know I have them .. I already located them but how do I get out of this viewpoint and switch to the creator itself ...

can we do this .. some of you must have had something like it .. I have been to the void when I was being audited and found I was not regressing but literally switching from this time period to that one .. I have been verified by someone on this site in free zone that it is one of the OT levels and I can go completely out of this physical universe to the void itself .. but I want to do it and be able to stay there long enough to look and see how to put all this together ...

jim

Jim, sure we can talk, but I know only a little bit, and as I learn more, I discover that what I know becomes less and less. I have many strands, and sometimes I come across as harsh and opinionated, but all the strands, the gentle ones and the harsh ones, and the ones that are somewhere in between are all sourced from love. Where I make mistakes, this is when I let ego intrude, and we all do that more or less sometimes. I am imperfectly perfect, and that is what we all are. What follows is my seeing, but it will take some time to show you how I got here, and then you might decide that I don’t know what I am talking about. And there will be many other ways of getting to the same place. We are all beautiful souls on the same quest – to find out what it is all about. If it was easy, there would be no point to it.

I repeat again, this is my seeing, not the truth, just what I see. It affects the way I use the chakras, and energy, because I do that in my own way. I did “learn” about chakras and kundalini from an exceptional Sikh man, but I have found there are similar lines of thought in most traditions. I will explain what those terms mean to me later on.

As I have said, you have a beautiful, but scattered energy, and you are wise enough to know that when I say you have a child like quality, this is a compliment, not a put down. We are born wise in the soul, but vulnerable in the body, and our experience removes us from that. As we become strong and able in the physical world, we forget who we really are. Yes, the concept of engrams relates here, we are affected by the trauma of being forced to accept illusion as reality. No wonder we have a hard time. But, as the energy that we call Christ tells us – we must be like little children. To me, that says we must return to our perfect state, yet the religion which should most help us follow the words of Christ is as disempowering as all other organized gangs that with-hold our power from us.

It all starts for me in thinking about where we are. If we can think about where we are, then we must have an “eye” outside of where we are. That is the hard part; we can look at that later. So, where are we? We are in a physical reality that has certain “truths”, and we call that science, and one of those “truths” is that we are in bodies that normally only perceive a small part of physical reality. Part of what we “normally” see is that we exist in 3 dimensional space (up, down, across), and we live and die according to this thing we have constructed called time, that really only describes how badly this physical reality is at holding itself together. In all physical reality there are two forces, the positive and the negative, which dance forever together, longing to touch, but never being able to touch, and the desire for union between the poles creates the energy that sustains the illusion of reality, and all this is interwoven with a thread of “spirit” or “magic” that also extends beyond physical reality to where we might say “source” is to be found.

Positive and negative charges? We say positive means good and negative means bad. Why should that be? They are just electrical charges, and they are meaningless without each other, so why is one “good”, and one “bad”? The thing is, as you know, everything is related, so yes, pos/neg also means light/dark, male/female, and on and on, and what is the light without the dark? Meaningless. And what is a man without a woman? Impotent – full of potential energy, but achieving nothing of importance in a real, essential sense. So this is why I said to you before that you needed to “ground” yourself (in my opinion). You are all positive charge with no earth – lightning hits the earth not to disappear, but to complete the circuit and to create, to transmute the energy, to grow, to bring fruit from potential. The importance of balance is intentionally kept from us to disempower us. This is done by people who have prospered under the dominance of masculine energy, and these are the people who generally run the organizations and institutions that claim to be searching for knowledge and understanding.

So, the bare bones of the way I understand things and connect to source, is that there is a trinity of feminine/masculine/magic that is how source had to divide itself to create physical existence (all dimensions, all timelines). And why did source divide? Because love loves to love. Each one of us is an aspect of that love, and at the same time, we are all Love. There is no trick; we all share the same viewpoints – past, present, future. There is no mystery; we are all aspects of the creator. But ... and there always is a but ... there is a trick and mystery after all, because as soon as we are born, we forget who we are, and the real trick is that this is the whole point of physical existence.

[music]

don't worry about a thing ... every little thing is gonna be alright


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jRi-4LLDmM


DuufZCPoO80 Just how i feel at the moment. Sorry for any confusion
:)

[Rich]

understand is that real LOVE comes from reasoning.


I don't know if it comes from reasoning, but if we want to convince our mind then we can look at the pros and cons and we can see that Love is the most logical thing we can do/be, and not to love is illogical and stupid.



I have experienced that your mind and my mind and everyone else's mind are all the same thing...

Lester Levenson said: ''There is only one mind''.

[Finefeather]

understand is that real LOVE comes from reasoning.


I don't know if it comes from reasoning, but if we want to convince our mind then we can look at the pros and cons and we can see that Love is the most logical thing we can do/be, and not to love is illogical and stupid.


Hi EmEx
You said it exactly as my mind does..."Love is the most logical thing we can do" and what is logic?..."Reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity" and where do we get the principles of validity?...in the knowledge of what life is all about...it shows us...when we think clearly...that the entire cosmos has laws which facilitate love ONLY...

So that takes care of the Law of attraction...but what then of the Law of repulsion?

This teaches us that everything has it's place and it may not be what we want but if we respect it's place we are displaying the highest form of love...unconditional love.

Take care
Ray

[AwakeInADream]

So, the bare bones of the way I understand things and connect to source, is that there is a trinity of feminine/masculine/magic that is how source had to divide itself to create physical existence (all dimensions, all timelines). And why did source divide? Because love loves to love. Each one of us is an aspect of that love, and at the same time, we are all Love. There is no trick; we all share the same viewpoints – past, present, future. There is no mystery; we are all aspects of the creator. But ... and there always is a but ... there is a trick and mystery after all, because as soon as we are born, we forget who we are, and the real trick is that this is the whole point of physical existence.

Hi Music!:)

I'm guessing that in terms of remembering who we are, that being able to remember every detail of this life and also having full recollection of our past lives, wouldn't do so much good ultimately, because in past lives we still suffered the same amnesia. I think perhaps that it would be most useful to remember the stages in between each life, then at least we would know our reasons for choosing to incarnate and what we hoped to achieve here.

Are there any techniques you could recommend whereby I may be able to start to remember who I truly am? Or to remember these in between lives?

I'll try anything twice(within reason). "Who am I?" seems to me, the most important question I could ever ask of myself.:)

[Finefeather]

I think perhaps that it would be most useful to remember the stages in between each life, then at least we would know our reasons for choosing to incarnate and what we hoped to achieve here.
Hi Awake..
But we all do know what we have come here for...it is right in front of our eyes...and we often just fail to see it. Some do though...and set about correcting all the bad habits and attitudes they have...others think they don't have bad habits and attitudes to correct and just stumble through life without any inclination to self improvement. Are we perfect? is anyone perfect? can we actually be perfect?

Only we...each...know our inner dark desires and secrets...they come built in when we incarnate...we may never give them a thought until we come into conflict with someone who points it out to us.
Usually we just walk around the problems...say nothing...think we are right and everyone else is wrong...all just a sign of failing to see the truth of our own failings.

We do not need a list or a program or remembrance of what we are here to do...we are what we are because our consciousness is where it is at...there is no one holding back the secret of our life...except our own ignorance and failure to examine our life and where it takes us...we will fail when we persist in seeking the wrong things, and be successful when we pursue the right things. This is what freedom of choice is all about. We run our lives, we are not trying to conform to some list of things to do this lifetime.

We have this idea that we cannot remember our past and that is simply because we don't need to clutter our minds with junk.
Imagine a baby starting off it's life and the first thing it remembers is how it got eaten by a huge big crocodile just a couple of days back :)
This life it...the baby...is going to probably learn to listen when people give it advice :)

Take care and love
Ray

[jiminii]

L. Ron Hubbard: Tape lecture: A BRAND-NEW TYPE OF AUDITING

“I just like to win, see?”

-- plus a lot of other stuff that music copied and pasted from elsewhere without understanding it properly! --





http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22like+to+win%22+site%3Abrainyquote.com

:)

Well, that link takes me to a google search page, with a load of quotes on page one, but none relevant. Bill, if you would like to take the time to explain those quotes better, with a solid link, and put them in a wider context, I would be more than happy to read and consider them. I will also search that site for myself later too, after I have cooked dinner for my family.

Thanks.

edit: just searched brainyquote for "I like to win, see" L Ron Hubbard, with no hits. I'll need a little more detail thanks Bill. If you have nothing, perhaps another request for an apology wouldn't be out of line considering yet again you are denigrating my understanding without providing any concrete evidence?

I was curious about the chakras .. isn't that something you do ... I want to know what I have to do ... that would get me to source itself ... there must be a way .. the last out of body was in that UFO and it is possible they set me up to NOT get out of the body ... to learn this thing and I once had telepathy and could sit in a one hour conversation with someone and both of us would suddenly be surprised at the same time realizing we did the conversations and the lips were not moving .. so we went back and checked everything we talked about and we were talking a long time with no lips moving ...

I am not trying to get into endless points of discussions of who knows what ... I would like you to help me find a way I can get to source in the static itself so I can possibly be able to see all these viewpoints I created .. I know I have them .. I already located them but how do I get out of this viewpoint and switch to the creator itself ...

can we do this .. some of you must have had something like it .. I have been to the void when I was being audited and found I was not regressing but literally switching from this time period to that one .. I have been verified by someone on this site in free zone that it is one of the OT levels and I can go completely out of this physical universe to the void itself .. but I want to do it and be able to stay there long enough to look and see how to put all this together ...

jim

Jim, sure we can talk, but I know only a little bit, and as I learn more, I discover that what I know becomes less and less. I have many strands, and sometimes I come across as harsh and opinionated, but all the strands, the gentle ones and the harsh ones, and the ones that are somewhere in between are all sourced from love. Where I make mistakes, this is when I let ego intrude, and we all do that more or less sometimes. I am imperfectly perfect, and that is what we all are. What follows is my seeing, but it will take some time to show you how I got here, and then you might decide that I don’t know what I am talking about. And there will be many other ways of getting to the same place. We are all beautiful souls on the same quest – to find out what it is all about. If it was easy, there would be no point to it.

I repeat again, this is my seeing, not the truth, just what I see. It affects the way I use the chakras, and energy, because I do that in my own way. I did “learn” about chakras and kundalini from an exceptional Sikh man, but I have found there are similar lines of thought in most traditions. I will explain what those terms mean to me later on.

As I have said, you have a beautiful, but scattered energy, and you are wise enough to know that when I say you have a child like quality, this is a compliment, not a put down. We are born wise in the soul, but vulnerable in the body, and our experience removes us from that. As we become strong and able in the physical world, we forget who we really are. Yes, the concept of engrams relates here, we are affected by the trauma of being forced to accept illusion as reality. No wonder we have a hard time. But, as the energy that we call Christ tells us – we must be like little children. To me, that says we must return to our perfect state, yet the religion which should most help us follow the words of Christ is as disempowering as all other organized gangs that with-hold our power from us.

It all starts for me in thinking about where we are. If we can think about where we are, then we must have an “eye” outside of where we are. That is the hard part; we can look at that later. So, where are we? We are in a physical reality that has certain “truths”, and we call that science, and one of those “truths” is that we are in bodies that normally only perceive a small part of physical reality. Part of what we “normally” see is that we exist in 3 dimensional space (up, down, across), and we live and die according to this thing we have constructed called time, that really only describes how badly this physical reality is at holding itself together. In all physical reality there are two forces, the positive and the negative, which dance forever together, longing to touch, but never being able to touch, and the desire for union between the poles creates the energy that sustains the illusion of reality, and all this is interwoven with a thread of “spirit” or “magic” that also extends beyond physical reality to where we might say “source” is to be found.

Positive and negative charges? We say positive means good and negative means bad. Why should that be? They are just electrical charges, and they are meaningless without each other, so why is one “good”, and one “bad”? The thing is, as you know, everything is related, so yes, pos/neg also means light/dark, male/female, and on and on, and what is the light without the dark? Meaningless. And what is a man without a woman? Impotent – full of potential energy, but achieving nothing of importance in a real, essential sense. So this is why I said to you before that you needed to “ground” yourself (in my opinion). You are all positive charge with no earth – lightning hits the earth not to disappear, but to complete the circuit and to create, to transmute the energy, to grow, to bring fruit from potential. The importance of balance is intentionally kept from us to disempower us. This is done by people who have prospered under the dominance of masculine energy, and these are the people who generally run the organizations and institutions that claim to be searching for knowledge and understanding.

So, the bare bones of the way I understand things and connect to source, is that there is a trinity of feminine/masculine/magic that is how source had to divide itself to create physical existence (all dimensions, all timelines). And why did source divide? Because love loves to love. Each one of us is an aspect of that love, and at the same time, we are all Love. There is no trick; we all share the same viewpoints – past, present, future. There is no mystery; we are all aspects of the creator. But ... and there always is a but ... there is a trick and mystery after all, because as soon as we are born, we forget who we are, and the real trick is that this is the whole point of physical existence.

if you see a child like quality it is true .. even from young ... but that is what I learned that I have never been here before like inelia she couldn't operate the body for 3 years after she connected to it .. in my case connection was like a rolling in and out of the body ... it was like a dream that I was in some kind of taffy roller ... but in the Navy when I was sick from paint fumes I was laying on the counter and this same dream happened except I was awake ... and when I opened my eyes I could see the astral body rolling up and down in the body like a wave and every where the astral was touching the body was the feeling I was going through a screen like the screen of a screen door .... that is somehow how I took this body ... when i was young ...

now everyone talks about this love but this love has an aberration or it wouldn't hook you so much ... before that is no love ...before that we are just aware ... only that .. no love nothing ... we are looking in pure amazement ... as we are putting the planets together .. we haven't even created love yet because we haven't created life yet ... but then that step was next someone comes up with the idea and we start working on it ... is is COMPLETELY LIKE CHILDREN yes ... because as a child we don't know love ... we just know that everything is new ... and we somehow hove to adjust ourselves to get some kind of connection to this body enough to manage it ... then someone will flow us love and we think "well that is interesting" .. and we try to do it ourselves ... but it is so mechanical ... I am sitting exterior to this love ...thinking "what the hell is it "
yes there must be something to this love ... but I don't get it ... I even have to try to convince myself that I love someone or I feel that if I don't there must be something weird about me that I can't feel it ... I can create it .. if I decide and uncreate it ... so I find it is just a creation .. and as long as I am creating it .. someone else is receiving it ... feels good ... but it is not me ... it is a creation of me and if I stop creating it the love ends and so does the connection to that love .. so I find I have to go above this love to LIKE ...I can like something very much because it is beautiful and interesting and makes me laugh and we can have fun like children .. and that is where it is ... like children playing in the sea with the dolphins ...
we are just all curious ... and we are all children and that is true ... we just want to see what we can do with this curious nature to learn what others can create ... I find when I get into this love thing it is an aberration .. why ... I can get a girl to live with me .. and she stays at my house ... then I must come home and show some appreciation and then I find I like this but it stops me from being free .. I can't go out and experience anything when I want without some kind of agreement .. so yes I like to be with her in the moment .. but I want to be anywhere else in another moment ... like children .. we can play our cowboys and Indians and then another goes off and decides to climb tress .. and it doesn't bother us that anyone is going off to get in some other create ... if we want to get out of our sandbox we do it .. but we don't have to .. we can let them go climb trees while we play in our sand box .. it is not the same when you have a girl friend ... your freedom is cut unless you can find someone that loves to play the same like you and just keeps going like an extension ... so you can not find source if you are just following this love. you have to go before there was love ... you have to go to the place where you made your first one cell animal and you created your first ghost .. then you are you ... and you know you are you creating it ... you are not you stuck in your own creations ... that is the difference

how do we get there?

jim

[AwakeInADream]

... before that is no love ...before that we are just aware ... only that .. no love nothing ...

Hi Jim!:) In what sense do you mean love? To me asking what came before Love is like asking what came before God/Source/All That Is. I tend to think that God is Love-is pure awareness, and that Love is the only thing that ultimately exists as a reality. This Love has nothing to do (for me) with the emotions and feelings of love that are so easy for us to create and destroy(no matter what level we are working on). Real Love to me is outside of all games, perhaps the stuff that all games/dreams are made of.

Maybe you're right that "you can not find source if you are just following this love"(lesser type), because I think that you can never really know what true Love really is until you've found Source(or at least had a glimpse). So it's Catch 22 I guess, unless It happens by grace.:)

{EDIT}-----------



We have this idea that we cannot remember our past and that is simply because we don't need to clutter our minds with junk.
Imagine a baby starting off it's life and the first thing it remembers is how it got eaten by a huge big crocodile just a couple of days back :)
This life it...the baby...is going to probably learn to listen when people give it advice :)


Thanks Ray!:) That's also a pretty good interpretation of the dream (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=682007&viewfull=1#post682007) I posted in the OBE thread, where the chicken and the baby were interchangeable symbols(maybe I was eaten in a previous life LOL).:)

[jiminii]

... before that is no love ...before that we are just aware ... only that .. no love nothing ...

Hi Jim!:) In what sense do you mean love? To me asking what came before Love is like asking what came before God/Source/All That Is. I tend to think that God is Love-is pure awareness, and that Love is the only thing that ultimately exists as a reality. This Love has nothing to do (for me) with the emotions and feelings of love that are so easy for us to create and destroy(no matter what level we are working on). Real Love to me is outside of all games, perhaps the stuff that all games/dreams are made of.

Maybe you're right that "you can not find source if you are just following this love"(lesser type), because I think that you can never really know what true Love really is until you've found Source. So it's Catch 22 I guess, unless It happens by grace.:)

the way I look at it is like this ,.. before anything there is this static call it theta ... pure thought ,. it is all powerful and all knowing ... it doesn't create anything because it knows the answer before it is even created so it is there ... the problem is it can be all knowing and all powerful and in constant forever serenity ,.. but it doesn't have experience ..

so pieces break off from it ... and these pieces first action is to create a viewpoint ... a thing from where it can see ... then it must make points to view ... so if figures out a way to make space ...then it looks at this space the second time the space vanishes .. so it learns to keep it from vanishing he must change it's properties to something else and not look at the original creation so he adds this thing called time ..
so he creates this block of space in this altered moment of time .. doesn't look at the original space but immediately creates another space over that in a new instant in time ... and puts the whole thing into automation and now he has space that doesn't go away that is continually creating itself in a new space new time again and again to forever .. then it can create a particle in each space being created and put it in motion by changing it's position in each new creation of space .. and then put that into automatic create and he has an atom ... and on and on until he has this physical universe ...

all he has in the beginning is a broken piece off the main piece of theta and then others break off and see this creation and want to get into this creation so they just agree to this creation and decided to not know what started it but jump in and add to this creation and now you got an agreed upon universe .. anyone who jumps in must agree to it's creation ...
this is like the cut on the hand ... we agreed we can cut the hand ... but a spirit can go back and look at the creation of that cut hand and vanish that creation and then the cut never happened so it looks like it did before it was cut ... so it goes like this ... if you know how it works you can undo somethings and add others ... if something is in it you don't like and you come up with a better idea ...like gravity .. you can show your new creation to others .. and see if they will agree to it ... this only shows there is affinity and communication and reality .. we have an affinity to create it and we communicate our affinity with others to get an agreement to our creation then it becomes a reality ..

something like this ..

jim

[AwakeInADream]

I pretty much agree with your cosmology Jim:), I just use different words.
I would say that static/theta == Love, because that is roughly what it feels like(multiplied by many billions). Admittedly I'm not very far along on the spiritual path, but so far I've found Love to be the only underlying reality there is, so it's logical for me to assume that this will only increase the further along I get. I have had a brief taste of Source too, boy I wish I could get back there! It was pure thought as you describe, but with so much Love there as well.:)(in fact the feeling of Love was the only thing I could bring back with me, and very watered down at that, the understanding I gained was lost in translation)

[johnf]

the way I look at it is like this ,.. before anything there is this static call it theta ... pure thought ,. it is all powerful and all knowing ... it doesn't create anything because it knows the answer before it is even created so it is there ... the problem is it can be all knowing and all powerful and in constant forever serenity ,.. but it doesn't have experience ..

so pieces break off from it ... and these pieces first action is to create a viewpoint ... a thing from where it can see ... then it must make points to view ... so if figures out a way to make space ...then it looks at this space the second time the space vanishes .. so it learns to keep it from vanishing he must change it's properties to something else and not look at the original creation so he adds this thing called time ..
so he creates this block of space in this altered moment of time .. doesn't look at the original space but immediately creates another space over that in a new instant in time ... and puts the whole thing into automation and now he has space that doesn't go away that is continually creating itself in a new space new time again and again to forever .. then it can create a particle in each space being created and put it in motion by changing it's position in each new creation of space .. and then put that into automatic create and he has an atom ... and on and on until he has this physical universe ...

all he has in the beginning is a broken piece off the main piece of theta and then others break off and see this creation and want to get into this creation so they just agree to this creation and decided to not know what started it but jump in and add to this creation and now you got an agreed upon universe .. anyone who jumps in must agree to it's creation ...
this is like the cut on the hand ... we agreed we can cut the hand ... but a spirit can go back and look at the creation of that cut hand and vanish that creation and then the cut never happened so it looks like it did before it was cut ... so it goes like this ... if you know how it works you can undo somethings and add others ... if something is in it you don't like and you come up with a better idea ...like gravity .. you can show your new creation to others .. and see if they will agree to it ... this only shows there is affinity and communication and reality .. we have an affinity to create it and we communicate our affinity with others to get an agreement to our creation then it becomes a reality ..

something like this ..

jim

This description of what exists before all else contains a lot of things. This is true of most schools of thought, and a lot of them talk about pieces breaking off. I will refer to the know to mystery scale for a moment, at the top is knowing, thought is quite a bit below that.
I, am not thought, I am pretty sure I am not a thinker of thought, because after trying many modalities of looking for the thinker, or being, I allways have found myself looking at that apparent object. I remember studying all this stuff that talked about thetans, and wondering why it used thought as the root for being, first of all that practice recreates the idea that there is a seperate object there, secondly it hooks into western societies tendency to focus only on the intellect, (again, probably no real object there). This term is from the greek, at that time there had already been a long history of established control, this period is considered by main stream thought to be the start of western civilization, as if egyptians, and babylonians didn't amount to much.
So That has been one wary point of observation for me, also the idea that there was this giant body of spirit , or thought or being, that everything came from, and that we as individuals actually broke off of was another.

Greybeard mentions Ramana, in this post ,
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=682359&viewfull=1#post682359 ,
and I have followed many links by him and others to videos and blogs of folks who have rekindled his tradition of inquiry, and have come up with various approaches to it that don't depend on specific interpretations of words he used.
Trying out these peoples suggestions, as well as various experiences I have had over the years with alternatives to meditation have pointed back to this experience of a view without a viewer, this has been the nature of my deepest experience of freedom, and something which I was often bumping into in my processing experiences.
Who am I? I am me! Says who? It is a process not a destination, the best question ever seems to have no answer, and this is just fine with me.

jf

[johnf]

This is something I left out of my share above that I feel is important enough to double post with.
The word that many use for the ultimate reality or state of being is love and in your post Jimini, you point out some real problems with that word because it is usually used to refer to some sort of qualified love, conditional agreement or something that is too restrictive to hold what we actually are. Again I think the mind loves to come in, create objects that persist so it can pretend to be the boss, and grab attention from
pure being. When others on this site use the word love, I think many of them really understand that there is something there beyond any kind of objectification or ownership.
jf

[Hervé]

[...]

I, am not thought, I am pretty sure I am not a thinker of thought, because after trying many modalities of looking for the thinker, or being, I allways have found myself looking at that apparent object. I remember studying all this stuff that talked about thetans, and wondering why it used thought as the root for being...

[...]

jf

From the Tech Dictionary:

THOUGHT,
1. the perception of the present and the comparison of it to the perceptions and conclusions of the past in order to direct action in the immediate or distant future. (Scn 0-8, p. 78)

2 . the manifestation of evolving a low-level certainty of observation from a number of past observations. (PAB 8)

3 . a static of unlimited capabilities, which has itself no wave-length, no space, and no time. It is impinged upon a physical universe which has space, time, energy and matter. The mission of thought is survival in the physical universe and in order to do this it is effecting a conquest of the physical universe. (5203 CM03B)

4 . thought is the phenomenon of combining, imagining or postulating theta facsimiles for the estimation of future physical efforts. (AP&A, p. 22)

5 . thought is not motion in space and time. Thought is a static containing an image of motion. (HFP, p. 25)

6 . the subject matter of Scn. It is considered as a kind of “energy” which is not part of the physical universe. It controls energy, but has no wave-length. It uses matter but it has no mass. It is found in space, but it has no position. It records time but it is not subject to time. In Scn the Greek word (and letter), theta, is used as a symbol for thought. (Abil 114A)

7 . the causal agent in an organism. It is thought which causes everything both structural and functional that happens in an organism. An organism without thought is already dead. (Abil 114A )



... when one postulates something, that something is the product of a "thought" landing in some universe...

Now, what kind of "thinking" would produce such a "thought"?

Hence that little book titled "The Fundamentals of Thought."

[Hervé]

...When others on this site use the word love, I think many of them really understand that there is something there beyond any kind of objectification or ownership.
jf

One of the main reason LRH started to either coin a new terminology or use terminology with precise definitions: to avoid confusions inherent with common usage and meanings.

Hence, to speak of experiences similar to what jim recounts, the word "Affinity" is preferred:

AFFINITY,
1. the feeling of love or liking for something or someone. Affinity is a phenomena of space in that it expresses the willingness to occupy the same place as the thing which is loved or liked. The reverse of it would be antipathy, “dislike” or rejection which would be the unwillingness to occupy the same space as or the unwillingness to approach something or someone. It came from the French, affinité, affinity, kindred, alliance, nearness and also from the Latin, affinis, meaning near, bordering upon. (LRH Def. Notes)

2. the ability to occupy the space of, or be like or similar to, or to express a willingness to be something. (SH Spec 83, 6612C06)

3 . the relative distance and similarity of the two ends of a communication line. (Dn 55!, p. 35)

4 . emotional response; the feeling of affection or the lack of it, of emotion or misemotion connected with life. (HCOB 21 Jun 71 I)

5 . the attraction which exists between two human beings or between a human being and another life organism or between a human being and mest or theta or the Supreme Being. It has a rough parallel in the physical universe in magnetic and gravitic attraction. The affinity or lack of affinity between an organism and the environment or between the theta and mest of an organism and within the theta (including entheta) of the organism brings about what we have referred to as emotions. (SOS Gloss)

6 . in its truest definition which is coincidence of location and beingness, that is the ultimate in affinity. (9ACC- 10, 5412CM20)


... hence "oneness."

[johnf]

Thanks Azmer, It has been a while since I have seen this definition. Definition number three starts with the word A, a separate being. Never found that, in thousands of hours of processing, not as a persistent thing. In a few hours of doing Scott Kiloby's unfindable inquiry, I found that what was doingthe looking, thinking emoting etc was something that permeated space and time was outside of it, yet was focussed by the existence of a physical body on a particular identity stream. This awareness , feeling persisted for a long time after a particular session, along with it came a peace that I never really got from my sessions of dianetics, ot levels or what have you. None of these things have any objective proof, each of us can only go through whatever processes we choose to go through, and come to our own conclusions or suspension of conclusions.
It is hard for me to escape the impression that the COS, and to a much lesser extent the freezone, still have a lot of this drive to really do something with this stuff , and that drive for me comes from trying to justify this separate self, instead of just letting it be what it is. The idea , feeling of a separate self, an owner or creator of thoughts seems to be something that keeps arising, but can also fall completely away.

So we still seem to have two different points of view that we can hold simultaneously, and view what arises between them.
Are we really being asked to choose one of them?

What can arise here in this conversation if we just hang out in the middle.

If follow the question at the end of your post, I can get a stronger feeling of what seems to be sending a thought into universes, and can hang out with that a while, however I do not call that thinking.

And I have for a long time found definition number three inconsistent with my experience of the know to mystery scale. People who have really explored that scale have found themselves not on it at all, and can see how all those states are part of them, they are just no longer stuck anywhere in it.
The knowing just knows, I think being, and even beings arise within that, and if allowed to fall back into it with a sigh and a smile.
jf

[greybeard]

Thanks Johnf
for reminding me of Scott
We might have wandered off topic a bit but in essence its the same.

Scott Kiloby - 'The End Of The Spiritual Search' - Interview by Iain McNay

Scott is author of "Love's Quiet Revolution" and "Reflections Of The One Life". He is also a lawyer and a musician. In this interview he talks about his drug addiction of 20 years and how through a series of 'spiritual openings' he found he was what he had been seeking.


This is a brilliant interview.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU0KkuLZstE

[Agape]

Im with Agape---see its simple--mind complicates---mind cant get it
As my first avatar I used the picture of Ramana--- I read his books before there was Eckhart Tolle with The Power of Now
Eckhart had respect for Ramana to the degree that he spent time on his ashram.

Ramana said "Use the thorn to remove the thorn then throw both away"
So yes the intellect is used then discarded.
The mind loves stories but at its ego root it is a separation device --thats what it does.

Chris



That what seems to be a ripple disturbing our minds
the reality itself if the Greatest Teacher

There is no greater teacher than Life

in its infinite forms .. Life and its transformations,

its endless .

The way we abide in it looks like a cathedral to me,
pure and white

Complexity is also one-ness . When you rest your mind in peace there is no knowledge that remains hidden


Be Peace :angel:

[Sierra]

I'm guessing that in terms of remembering who we are, that being able to remember every detail of this life and also having full recollection of our past lives, wouldn't do so much good ultimately, because in past lives we still suffered the same amnesia. I think perhaps that it would be most useful to remember the stages in between each life, then at least we would know our reasons for choosing to incarnate and what we hoped to achieve here.

Are there any techniques you could recommend whereby I may be able to start to remember who I truly am? Or to remember these in between lives?

I'll try anything twice(within reason). "Who am I?" seems to me, the most important question I could ever ask of myself.:)

Michael Newton wrote Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives. He is a hypnotist who stumbled on the life between lives while doing past life regressions. He trains people to do life between lives regressions now. I did the regression when I moved to Paradise, because there was a practitioner here. The book has the information to find someone local to your area. Look them all up, there is a wide variation in the amount charged!

Available on Amazon (sequel as well, both utterly fascinating). :)

I am still integrating what I learned. Have not yet listened to the recording...

Sierra

[enfoldedblue]

Hi Jiminii,
I have decided to tackle your last post... as I do consider myself somewhat knowledgeable on the subject of love...though it is the deepest mystery there is and is impossible to fully grasp with the mind.

Solve the mystery = love’s the mystery.

I explained what I saw in this thread : http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59097-Caught-in-Our-Own-Feedback-Loops

The aspect of this state that felt so incredible was the feeling of pure love that coursed through my being as I experienced it. Since the time of this experience I have never been able to fully re-enter this state for any extended period of time though I do occasionally get glimpses and exist within deepening shades of it.

A while after this happening, I experienced the other side of the coin...I experienced a version of this state from a mental perspective...felt cold insect/alien like. Afterwards I would worry about which one was actually true.

Then one day I experienced a turning point. I realized that when I went into my deepest state there was just me...nothing but me reflected in various shapes and states of being. From this point all in my reality unfurled around me.

In the state without love in the very centre, what unfurled could potentially be very ugly...as I divided myself up I saw domination, pain, etc (not actually coming from evil...more from curiosity). But when love...self love for me and all my creation was held in the centre all that unfurled became breathtakingly awesomely beautiful. Every part respecting, honouring, nurturing and loving the rest. Everything flourished and coursed with this love.

Here’s something I wrote about this:


I see a dimension in which I look out (with 360" vision) all I can see all around me are mirrors reaching out into infinity...I see myself reflected everywhere in different states and forms. I once saw myself from this perspective and was frightened by what I saw...me. Now when I flash to this perspective I love what I see...and what I see loves me. I am filled with the beauty, excitement, wonderment and joy of what I am.
We’ve been programmed to look outside of ourselves for love and acceptance. It finally feels like the time is approaching when we stop trying to do things backwards. It’s like so many of us have our lights shining outwardly, either searching, attracting, or trying to light the way, but when we realize that by turning our lights, inward into our hearts, by learning to love ourselves completely, unconditionally, we actually become STARS that radiate from the point of God (that point in our hearts where we all meet). When the light shines forth purely from our hearts, we discover and become all that we were ever trying to find.

From this day on I felt an incredible sense of relief..it was up to me and I chose love.

On a more mundane level I have found that the more I choose love the more my life becomes filled with it, and the more natural and deep it becomes.

Music and I met 7 years ago (on the computer lol) and since our first words, our love has been truly magic. We just get each other, and it is just easy and beautiful to be together. We make each other richer and happier. We are free, but making the other happy is as important as making ourselves happy, so it doesn’t feel like any deprivation of freedom. Together we play and explore above and below the surface.

This is all I have time for now...I hope it helps

Love

[jiminii]

I pretty much agree with your cosmology Jim:), I just use different words.
I would say that static/theta == Love, because that is roughly what it feels like(multiplied by many billions). Admittedly I'm not very far along on the spiritual path, but so far I've found Love to be the only underlying reality there is, so it's logical for me to assume that this will only increase the further along I get. I have had a brief taste of Source too, boy I wish I could get back there! It was pure thought as you describe, but with so much Love there as well.:)(in fact the feeling of Love was the only thing I could bring back with me, and very watered down at that, the understanding I gained was lost in translation)

that is theta ... yes it is unbelievable feeling .. like a love feeling but .. that can't totally describe it ... so I use theta ... just beautiful fantastic like love (maybe the love of a child not sure) hahaha

jim

[jiminii]

the way I look at it is like this ,.. before anything there is this static call it theta ... pure thought ,. it is all powerful and all knowing ... it doesn't create anything because it knows the answer before it is even created so it is there ... the problem is it can be all knowing and all powerful and in constant forever serenity ,.. but it doesn't have experience ..

so pieces break off from it ... and these pieces first action is to create a viewpoint ... a thing from where it can see ... then it must make points to view ... so if figures out a way to make space ...then it looks at this space the second time the space vanishes .. so it learns to keep it from vanishing he must change it's properties to something else and not look at the original creation so he adds this thing called time ..
so he creates this block of space in this altered moment of time .. doesn't look at the original space but immediately creates another space over that in a new instant in time ... and puts the whole thing into automation and now he has space that doesn't go away that is continually creating itself in a new space new time again and again to forever .. then it can create a particle in each space being created and put it in motion by changing it's position in each new creation of space .. and then put that into automatic create and he has an atom ... and on and on until he has this physical universe ...

all he has in the beginning is a broken piece off the main piece of theta and then others break off and see this creation and want to get into this creation so they just agree to this creation and decided to not know what started it but jump in and add to this creation and now you got an agreed upon universe .. anyone who jumps in must agree to it's creation ...
this is like the cut on the hand ... we agreed we can cut the hand ... but a spirit can go back and look at the creation of that cut hand and vanish that creation and then the cut never happened so it looks like it did before it was cut ... so it goes like this ... if you know how it works you can undo somethings and add others ... if something is in it you don't like and you come up with a better idea ...like gravity .. you can show your new creation to others .. and see if they will agree to it ... this only shows there is affinity and communication and reality .. we have an affinity to create it and we communicate our affinity with others to get an agreement to our creation then it becomes a reality ..

something like this ..

jim

This description of what exists before all else contains a lot of things. This is true of most schools of thought, and a lot of them talk about pieces breaking off. I will refer to the know to mystery scale for a moment, at the top is knowing, thought is quite a bit below that.
I, am not thought, I am pretty sure I am not a thinker of thought, because after trying many modalities of looking for the thinker, or being, I allways have found myself looking at that apparent object. I remember studying all this stuff that talked about thetans, and wondering why it used thought as the root for being, first of all that practice recreates the idea that there is a seperate object there, secondly it hooks into western societies tendency to focus only on the intellect, (again, probably no real object there). This term is from the greek, at that time there had already been a long history of established control, this period is considered by main stream thought to be the start of western civilization, as if egyptians, and babylonians didn't amount to much.
So That has been one wary point of observation for me, also the idea that there was this giant body of spirit , or thought or being, that everything came from, and that we as individuals actually broke off of was another.

Greybeard mentions Ramana, in this post ,
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=682359&viewfull=1#post682359 ,
and I have followed many links by him and others to videos and blogs of folks who have rekindled his tradition of inquiry, and have come up with various approaches to it that don't depend on specific interpretations of words he used.
Trying out these peoples suggestions, as well as various experiences I have had over the years with alternatives to meditation have pointed back to this experience of a view without a viewer, this has been the nature of my deepest experience of freedom, and something which I was often bumping into in my processing experiences.
Who am I? I am me! Says who? It is a process not a destination, the best question ever seems to have no answer, and this is just fine with me.

jf

yes it comes down from know (total knowing) to looking (the viewpoint) we get space and objects to thought (which is getting agreement to our lookingingness ) something like this ..
what you think?

jim

[johnf]

Hi Jiminii,
I have decided to tackle your last post... as I do consider myself somewhat knowledgeable on the subject of love...though it is the deepest mystery there is and is impossible to fully grasp with the mind.

Solve the mystery = love’s the mystery.

I explained what I saw in this thread : http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59097-Caught-in-Our-Own-Feedback-Loops

The aspect of this state that felt so incredible was the feeling of pure love that coursed through my being as I experienced it. Since the time of this experience I have never been able to fully re-enter this state for any extended period of time though I do occasionally get glimpses and exist within deepening shades of it.

A while after this happening, I experienced the other side of the coin...I experienced a version of this state from a mental perspective...felt cold insect/alien like. Afterwards I would worry about which one was actually true.

Then one day I experienced a turning point. I realized that when I went into my deepest state there was just me...nothing but me reflected in various shapes and states of being. From this point all in my reality unfurled around me.

In the state without love in the very centre, what unfurled could potentially be very ugly...as I divided myself up I saw domination, pain, etc (not actually coming from evil...more from curiosity). But when love...self love for me and all my creation was held in the centre all that unfurled became breathtakingly awesomely beautiful. Every part respecting, honouring, nurturing and loving the rest. Everything flourished and coursed with this love.

Here’s something I wrote about this:


I see a dimension in which I look out (with 360" vision) all I can see all around me are mirrors reaching out into infinity...I see myself reflected everywhere in different states and forms. I once saw myself from this perspective and was frightened by what I saw...me. Now when I flash to this perspective I love what I see...and what I see loves me. I am filled with the beauty, excitement, wonderment and joy of what I am.
We’ve been programmed to look outside of ourselves for love and acceptance. It finally feels like the time is approaching when we stop trying to do things backwards. It’s like so many of us have our lights shining outwardly, either searching, attracting, or trying to light the way, but when we realize that by turning our lights, inward into our hearts, by learning to love ourselves completely, unconditionally, we actually become STARS that radiate from the point of God (that point in our hearts where we all meet). When the light shines forth purely from our hearts, we discover and become all that we were ever trying to find.

From this day on I felt an incredible sense of relief..it was up to me and I chose love.

On a more mundane level I have found that the more I choose love the more my life becomes filled with it, and the more natural and deep it becomes.

Music and I met 7 years ago (on the computer lol) and since our first words, our love has been truly magic. We just get each other, and it is just easy and beautiful to be together. We make each other richer and happier. We are free, but making the other happy is as important as making ourselves happy, so it doesn’t feel like any deprivation of freedom. Together we play and explore above and below the surface.

This is all I have time for now...I hope it helps

Love

Um... you have had some intense experiences along these lines, I remeber the post you linked previously.
I was taken with the image of the love energy from a mental perspective and it felt cold and alien like.
This reminds me of the many discussions in this forum about archontic energy, but in your experience it was just another part of
the whole, seen from a different angle.
Maybe this energy isn't as other, or as menacing as many down through the ages have thought?
My way of talking about love is that it includes everything, it is the motivation for all actions, for the formation of everything in creation.
When our ideas of past losses, and projection of future losses creep in those actions get rougher, the wierd part is that the propelling force is probably still love, it has just gotten overly focussed on one thing over another.

jf

[jiminii]

This is something I left out of my share above that I feel is important enough to double post with.
The word that many use for the ultimate reality or state of being is love and in your post Jimini, you point out some real problems with that word because it is usually used to refer to some sort of qualified love, conditional agreement or something that is too restrictive to hold what we actually are. Again I think the mind loves to come in, create objects that persist so it can pretend to be the boss, and grab attention from
pure being. When others on this site use the word love, I think many of them really understand that there is something there beyond any kind of objectification or ownership.
jf

how about affinity
what you think?

jim

[jiminii]

Thanks Azmer, It has been a while since I have seen this definition. Definition number three starts with the word A, a separate being. Never found that, in thousands of hours of processing, not as a persistent thing. In a few hours of doing Scott Kiloby's unfindable inquiry, I found that what was doingthe looking, thinking emoting etc was something that permeated space and time was outside of it, yet was focussed by the existence of a physical body on a particular identity stream. This awareness , feeling persisted for a long time after a particular session, along with it came a peace that I never really got from my sessions of dianetics, ot levels or what have you. None of these things have any objective proof, each of us can only go through whatever processes we choose to go through, and come to our own conclusions or suspension of conclusions.
It is hard for me to escape the impression that the COS, and to a much lesser extent the freezone, still have a lot of this drive to really do something with this stuff , and that drive for me comes from trying to justify this separate self, instead of just letting it be what it is. The idea , feeling of a separate self, an owner or creator of thoughts seems to be something that keeps arising, but can also fall completely away.

So we still seem to have two different points of view that we can hold simultaneously, and view what arises between them.
Are we really being asked to choose one of them?

What can arise here in this conversation if we just hang out in the middle.

If follow the question at the end of your post, I can get a stronger feeling of what seems to be sending a thought into universes, and can hang out with that a while, however I do not call that thinking.

And I have for a long time found definition number three inconsistent with my experience of the know to mystery scale. People who have really explored that scale have found themselves not on it at all, and can see how all those states are part of them, they are just no longer stuck anywhere in it.
The knowing just knows, I think being, and even beings arise within that, and if allowed to fall back into it with a sigh and a smile.
jf

weird .. how definitions can get close to some isness ..... but I can see your point ... when I went exterior in a football game after someone hit me in the solar plexis and got up there and KNEW without a doubt that I KNEW everything ... an amazing feeling ... and that is what we are looking for ... this is where I said .. the words can't seem to match the exact thing ... alters it and makes it less than the concept you are really looking at ... ... it can be like this ... it can be like that ... but that is the same as the thing I KNEW when I pulled the flow or knowingness down and made my head vanish .. there must have been enough knowingness there to KNOW the girls were coming into the house to see it at the same time .... and it is that .. only that ..no words ... and can't do it again ... because I have to remember the exact that and get someone to view it to know I am doing that

that is the thing I am trying to correct ... when I came back again in this body

but how ??? if they did something to me in that UFO ... to prevent it ... and they really can only hide it ... the knowingness is still there ... just have to erase the implant

jim

[johnf]

the way I look at it is like this ,.. before anything there is this static call it theta ... pure thought ,. it is all powerful and all knowing ... it doesn't create anything because it knows the answer before it is even created so it is there ... the problem is it can be all knowing and all powerful and in constant forever serenity ,.. but it doesn't have experience ..

so pieces break off from it ... and these pieces first action is to create a viewpoint ... a thing from where it can see ... then it must make points to view ... so if figures out a way to make space ...then it looks at this space the second time the space vanishes .. so it learns to keep it from vanishing he must change it's properties to something else and not look at the original creation so he adds this thing called time ..
so he creates this block of space in this altered moment of time .. doesn't look at the original space but immediately creates another space over that in a new instant in time ... and puts the whole thing into automation and now he has space that doesn't go away that is continually creating itself in a new space new time again and again to forever .. then it can create a particle in each space being created and put it in motion by changing it's position in each new creation of space .. and then put that into automatic create and he has an atom ... and on and on until he has this physical universe ...

all he has in the beginning is a broken piece off the main piece of theta and then others break off and see this creation and want to get into this creation so they just agree to this creation and decided to not know what started it but jump in and add to this creation and now you got an agreed upon universe .. anyone who jumps in must agree to it's creation ...
this is like the cut on the hand ... we agreed we can cut the hand ... but a spirit can go back and look at the creation of that cut hand and vanish that creation and then the cut never happened so it looks like it did before it was cut ... so it goes like this ... if you know how it works you can undo somethings and add others ... if something is in it you don't like and you come up with a better idea ...like gravity .. you can show your new creation to others .. and see if they will agree to it ... this only shows there is affinity and communication and reality .. we have an affinity to create it and we communicate our affinity with others to get an agreement to our creation then it becomes a reality ..

something like this ..

jim

This description of what exists before all else contains a lot of things. This is true of most schools of thought, and a lot of them talk about pieces breaking off. I will refer to the know to mystery scale for a moment, at the top is knowing, thought is quite a bit below that.
I, am not thought, I am pretty sure I am not a thinker of thought, because after trying many modalities of looking for the thinker, or being, I allways have found myself looking at that apparent object. I remember studying all this stuff that talked about thetans, and wondering why it used thought as the root for being, first of all that practice recreates the idea that there is a seperate object there, secondly it hooks into western societies tendency to focus only on the intellect, (again, probably no real object there). This term is from the greek, at that time there had already been a long history of established control, this period is considered by main stream thought to be the start of western civilization, as if egyptians, and babylonians didn't amount to much.
So That has been one wary point of observation for me, also the idea that there was this giant body of spirit , or thought or being, that everything came from, and that we as individuals actually broke off of was another.

Greybeard mentions Ramana, in this post ,
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=682359&viewfull=1#post682359 ,
and I have followed many links by him and others to videos and blogs of folks who have rekindled his tradition of inquiry, and have come up with various approaches to it that don't depend on specific interpretations of words he used.
Trying out these peoples suggestions, as well as various experiences I have had over the years with alternatives to meditation have pointed back to this experience of a view without a viewer, this has been the nature of my deepest experience of freedom, and something which I was often bumping into in my processing experiences.
Who am I? I am me! Says who? It is a process not a destination, the best question ever seems to have no answer, and this is just fine with me.

jf

yes it comes down from know (total knowing) to looking (the viewpoint) we get space and objects to thought (which is getting agreement to our lookingingness ) something like this ..
what you think?

jim

I definitely agree with that part. I also think that there is a pure continuum, and that the separation, much like Mark Twain's demise has been greatly exaggerated.
Also one word, such as Knowing can't really contain it. If one is really clear about it I think love does a better job of it as long as you keep the baggage of attachement off it.
I think that most of the ideas in the COS material was designed to reach the most intellectual of folks, yet it helped them deal with emotions to whatever extent they could.
One of my favorite speakers these days is Bentinho Masaro, he points out that no matter what is occurring, no matter what you are feeling, there is a space that envelopes all that with a feeling of sweetness.
He is talking about how we all are the ultimate undifferentiated consciousness, and that is inseparable from whatever our experience is, everything else is basically made out of that.
Before I got into COS stuff I read a lot of eastern type stuff, and I never found theanything that that could bring it home, till I read the definition of static.
Then I observed the immense acting out (dramatization) of separation, and ownership of other beings that occurred in that organization, and went back to the forbidden other practices rather quickly.
In the mean time I found methods to really sink my teeth into what is in between the sweetness of pure consciousness, and any particular layer of experience in a physical universe.
The idea was introduced to me there that other practices skip effort and force, and I think that, though sometimes is the case, is not allways so.
There are many people here on this forum I can relate to because they have seen many of the same things I have, but have never touched a meter, there are many routes to deepening awareness, and that just makes it all the more interesting.

jf

[johnf]

This is something I left out of my share above that I feel is important enough to double post with.
The word that many use for the ultimate reality or state of being is love and in your post Jimini, you point out some real problems with that word because it is usually used to refer to some sort of qualified love, conditional agreement or something that is too restrictive to hold what we actually are. Again I think the mind loves to come in, create objects that persist so it can pretend to be the boss, and grab attention from
pure being. When others on this site use the word love, I think many of them really understand that there is something there beyond any kind of objectification or ownership.
jf

how about affinity
what you think?

jim

I like affinity too.(lol,pun?)
I think that love more naturally includes the full spectrum of human experience, as long as the possessive behaiviors that you point out there are recognized more as calls for love.
In many peoples experience violence ,possessiveness, jealousy, etc have been seen as overdoing love, but love really not only knows when to stop, but naturally just does.
The idea of exact effort required to get the job done seems to be part of a real inclusive defintion.
On the other hand I have heard it described as action, it can be that simple.

[jiminii]

I'm guessing that in terms of remembering who we are, that being able to remember every detail of this life and also having full recollection of our past lives, wouldn't do so much good ultimately, because in past lives we still suffered the same amnesia. I think perhaps that it would be most useful to remember the stages in between each life, then at least we would know our reasons for choosing to incarnate and what we hoped to achieve here.

Are there any techniques you could recommend whereby I may be able to start to remember who I truly am? Or to remember these in between lives?

I'll try anything twice(within reason). "Who am I?" seems to me, the most important question I could ever ask of myself.:)

Michael Newton wrote Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives. He is a hypnotist who stumbled on the life between lives while doing past life regressions. He trains people to do life between lives regressions now. I did the regression when I moved to Paradise, because there was a practitioner here. The book has the information to find someone local to your area. Look them all up, there is a wide variation in the amount charged!

Available on Amazon (sequel as well, both utterly fascinating). :)

I am still integrating what I learned. Have not yet listened to the recording...

Sierra

I found out who I am when trey dated when I came into this body .. he kept running the question right down to the fraction of seconds ... and opened up a huge door ... that made it hard to even keep that and me in this body trying to get it home ... that is like a few miles on the bus ... still in between that awakening and getting myself home in bed ... lay down in bed .... and ask myself "who am I " ... and the word metteyya came in .... and along with it all that light floating for sometime in pure light ... awesome wouldn't even be a word to describe it ... it was what it was ... light love infinite theta ...

like this

maybe that can work for you

get someone to date when you entered your body

jim

[CdnSirian]

But which body? You're still you, right? Our words make this a little tricky.

[jiminii]

But which body? You're still you, right? Our words make this a little tricky.

well we know the GE is already there in conception and grows the body .. apparently .. or all the GE's of the cells are creating it until it is full size and the intelligent GE shows up .. but that don't make sense .. must be in the union of the 2 sperm and egg .. produces or allows a GE to enter ... really don't know how you're going to figure that one out .. there are all the GE's in the cells ... then the overall GE for the species ... maybe LRH has something about that .. I read where he says the GE stays in the body until all the cells are dead .. then there must be some way new GE's are created in the union .. if we got so many bodies on the planet must come from somewhere ...

the spirit can enter like mine at 4 and a half years old ... when the other spirit was willing to leave it ... ??? I think that is where the auditor has to sort out who is the thetan and who is the GE

jim

[enfoldedblue]

Hi Jiminii,
I have decided to tackle your last post... as I do consider myself somewhat knowledgeable on the subject of love...though it is the deepest mystery there is and is impossible to fully grasp with the mind.

Solve the mystery = love’s the mystery.

I explained what I saw in this thread : http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59097-Caught-in-Our-Own-Feedback-Loops

The aspect of this state that felt so incredible was the feeling of pure love that coursed through my being as I experienced it. Since the time of this experience I have never been able to fully re-enter this state for any extended period of time though I do occasionally get glimpses and exist within deepening shades of it.

A while after this happening, I experienced the other side of the coin...I experienced a version of this state from a mental perspective...felt cold insect/alien like. Afterwards I would worry about which one was actually true.

Then one day I experienced a turning point. I realized that when I went into my deepest state there was just me...nothing but me reflected in various shapes and states of being. From this point all in my reality unfurled around me.

In the state without love in the very centre, what unfurled could potentially be very ugly...as I divided myself up I saw domination, pain, etc (not actually coming from evil...more from curiosity). But when love...self love for me and all my creation was held in the centre all that unfurled became breathtakingly awesomely beautiful. Every part respecting, honouring, nurturing and loving the rest. Everything flourished and coursed with this love.

Here’s something I wrote about this:


I see a dimension in which I look out (with 360" vision) all I can see all around me are mirrors reaching out into infinity...I see myself reflected everywhere in different states and forms. I once saw myself from this perspective and was frightened by what I saw...me. Now when I flash to this perspective I love what I see...and what I see loves me. I am filled with the beauty, excitement, wonderment and joy of what I am.
We’ve been programmed to look outside of ourselves for love and acceptance. It finally feels like the time is approaching when we stop trying to do things backwards. It’s like so many of us have our lights shining outwardly, either searching, attracting, or trying to light the way, but when we realize that by turning our lights, inward into our hearts, by learning to love ourselves completely, unconditionally, we actually become STARS that radiate from the point of God (that point in our hearts where we all meet). When the light shines forth purely from our hearts, we discover and become all that we were ever trying to find.

From this day on I felt an incredible sense of relief..it was up to me and I chose love.

On a more mundane level I have found that the more I choose love the more my life becomes filled with it, and the more natural and deep it becomes.

Music and I met 7 years ago (on the computer lol) and since our first words, our love has been truly magic. We just get each other, and it is just easy and beautiful to be together. We make each other richer and happier. We are free, but making the other happy is as important as making ourselves happy, so it doesn’t feel like any deprivation of freedom. Together we play and explore above and below the surface.

This is all I have time for now...I hope it helps

Love

Um... you have had some intense experiences along these lines, I remeber the post you linked previously.
I was taken with the image of the love energy from a mental perspective and it felt cold and alien like.
This reminds me of the many discussions in this forum about archontic energy, but in your experience it was just another part of
the whole, seen from a different angle.
Maybe this energy isn't as other, or as menacing as many down through the ages have thought?
My way of talking about love is that it includes everything, it is the motivation for all actions, for the formation of everything in creation.
When our ideas of past losses, and projection of future losses creep in those actions get rougher, the wierd part is that the propelling force is probably still love, it has just gotten overly focussed on one thing over another.

jf

Hey thanks JohnF,

I actually had not made this connection between being the same experience only difference was being processed through head or heart. Thanks

[jiminii]

Hi Jiminii,
I have decided to tackle your last post... as I do consider myself somewhat knowledgeable on the subject of love...though it is the deepest mystery there is and is impossible to fully grasp with the mind.

Solve the mystery = love’s the mystery.

I explained what I saw in this thread : http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59097-Caught-in-Our-Own-Feedback-Loops

The aspect of this state that felt so incredible was the feeling of pure love that coursed through my being as I experienced it. Since the time of this experience I have never been able to fully re-enter this state for any extended period of time though I do occasionally get glimpses and exist within deepening shades of it.

A while after this happening, I experienced the other side of the coin...I experienced a version of this state from a mental perspective...felt cold insect/alien like. Afterwards I would worry about which one was actually true.

Then one day I experienced a turning point. I realized that when I went into my deepest state there was just me...nothing but me reflected in various shapes and states of being. From this point all in my reality unfurled around me.

In the state without love in the very centre, what unfurled could potentially be very ugly...as I divided myself up I saw domination, pain, etc (not actually coming from evil...more from curiosity). But when love...self love for me and all my creation was held in the centre all that unfurled became breathtakingly awesomely beautiful. Every part respecting, honouring, nurturing and loving the rest. Everything flourished and coursed with this love.

Here’s something I wrote about this:


I see a dimension in which I look out (with 360" vision) all I can see all around me are mirrors reaching out into infinity...I see myself reflected everywhere in different states and forms. I once saw myself from this perspective and was frightened by what I saw...me. Now when I flash to this perspective I love what I see...and what I see loves me. I am filled with the beauty, excitement, wonderment and joy of what I am.
We’ve been programmed to look outside of ourselves for love and acceptance. It finally feels like the time is approaching when we stop trying to do things backwards. It’s like so many of us have our lights shining outwardly, either searching, attracting, or trying to light the way, but when we realize that by turning our lights, inward into our hearts, by learning to love ourselves completely, unconditionally, we actually become STARS that radiate from the point of God (that point in our hearts where we all meet). When the light shines forth purely from our hearts, we discover and become all that we were ever trying to find.

From this day on I felt an incredible sense of relief..it was up to me and I chose love.

On a more mundane level I have found that the more I choose love the more my life becomes filled with it, and the more natural and deep it becomes.

Music and I met 7 years ago (on the computer lol) and since our first words, our love has been truly magic. We just get each other, and it is just easy and beautiful to be together. We make each other richer and happier. We are free, but making the other happy is as important as making ourselves happy, so it doesn’t feel like any deprivation of freedom. Together we play and explore above and below the surface.

This is all I have time for now...I hope it helps

Love

Um... you have had some intense experiences along these lines, I remeber the post you linked previously.
I was taken with the image of the love energy from a mental perspective and it felt cold and alien like.
This reminds me of the many discussions in this forum about archontic energy, but in your experience it was just another part of
the whole, seen from a different angle.
Maybe this energy isn't as other, or as menacing as many down through the ages have thought?
My way of talking about love is that it includes everything, it is the motivation for all actions, for the formation of everything in creation.
When our ideas of past losses, and projection of future losses creep in those actions get rougher, the wierd part is that the propelling force is probably still love, it has just gotten overly focussed on one thing over another.

jf

Hey thanks JohnF,

I actually had not made this connection between being the same experience only difference was being processed through head or heart. Thanks

the highest tone level of emotions is serenity of beingness .. maybe this is what you experience ... coming from pure static you would be coming down from serenity of beingness

what you think?

jim

[johnf]

Hi Jiminii,
I have decided to tackle your last post... as I do consider myself somewhat knowledgeable on the subject of love...though it is the deepest mystery there is and is impossible to fully grasp with the mind.

Solve the mystery = love’s the mystery.

I explained what I saw in this thread : http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59097-Caught-in-Our-Own-Feedback-Loops

The aspect of this state that felt so incredible was the feeling of pure love that coursed through my being as I experienced it. Since the time of this experience I have never been able to fully re-enter this state for any extended period of time though I do occasionally get glimpses and exist within deepening shades of it.

A while after this happening, I experienced the other side of the coin...I experienced a version of this state from a mental perspective...felt cold insect/alien like. Afterwards I would worry about which one was actually true.

Then one day I experienced a turning point. I realized that when I went into my deepest state there was just me...nothing but me reflected in various shapes and states of being. From this point all in my reality unfurled around me.

In the state without love in the very centre, what unfurled could potentially be very ugly...as I divided myself up I saw domination, pain, etc (not actually coming from evil...more from curiosity). But when love...self love for me and all my creation was held in the centre all that unfurled became breathtakingly awesomely beautiful. Every part respecting, honouring, nurturing and loving the rest. Everything flourished and coursed with this love.

Here’s something I wrote about this:


I see a dimension in which I look out (with 360" vision) all I can see all around me are mirrors reaching out into infinity...I see myself reflected everywhere in different states and forms. I once saw myself from this perspective and was frightened by what I saw...me. Now when I flash to this perspective I love what I see...and what I see loves me. I am filled with the beauty, excitement, wonderment and joy of what I am.
We’ve been programmed to look outside of ourselves for love and acceptance. It finally feels like the time is approaching when we stop trying to do things backwards. It’s like so many of us have our lights shining outwardly, either searching, attracting, or trying to light the way, but when we realize that by turning our lights, inward into our hearts, by learning to love ourselves completely, unconditionally, we actually become STARS that radiate from the point of God (that point in our hearts where we all meet). When the light shines forth purely from our hearts, we discover and become all that we were ever trying to find.From this day on I felt an incredible sense of relief..it was up to me and I chose love.

On a more mundane level I have found that the more I choose love the more my life becomes filled with it, and the more natural and deep it becomes.

Music and I met 7 years ago (on the computer lol) and since our first words, our love has been truly magic. We just get each other, and it is just easy and beautiful to be together. We make each other richer and happier. We are free, but making the other happy is as important as making ourselves happy, so it doesn’t feel like any deprivation of freedom. Together we play and explore above and below the surface.

This is all I have time for now...I hope it helps

Love

Um... you have had some intense experiences along these lines, I remember the post you linked previously.
I was taken with the image of the love energy from a mental perspective and it felt cold and alien like.
This reminds me of the many discussions in this forum about archontic energy, but in your experience it was just another part of
the whole, seen from a different angle.
Maybe this energy isn't as other, or as menacing as many down through the ages have thought?
My way of talking about love is that it includes everything, it is the motivation for all actions, for the formation of everything in creation.
When our ideas of past losses, and projection of future losses creep in those actions get rougher, the wierd part is that the propelling force is probably still love, it has just gotten overly focussed on one thing over another.

jf

Hey thanks JohnF,

I actually had not made this connection between being the same experience only difference was being processed through head or heart. Thanks

the highest tone level of emotions is serenity of beingness .. maybe this is what you experience ... coming from pure static you would be coming down from serenity of beingness

what you think?

jim

The thing about is is I think that the whole time period that these scales came out of was stuck on hierarchies.
I have had another type of experience where I have experienced serenity of beingness, and everything else was within it
and I felt like I had never left. today I think more in terms of spherical spaces, except the main one has no boundaries.
So coming down from higher states doesn't describe it well for me. I see it as more tuning into, say emotion, or looking, but I will never be anything actually apart from the source of all serenity.
This phrase was a real mind, time, blower for me, I am the sphere whose center is everywhere, and whose periphery is nowhere.
Those are the type of descriptions that really point at what spirit is for me.
In a way it is very similar to the definition of static, which points directly at a thing by pointing away from what it is not.
That is another useful tool , pointing, words are not objects but tend to become objectified in our minds so they can only point toward anything real.
I think this method of pointing to what something is not, has a tendency to move us through not knowing concerning the subject.

jf

[music]

So, the bare bones of the way I understand things and connect to source, is that there is a trinity of feminine/masculine/magic that is how source had to divide itself to create physical existence (all dimensions, all timelines). And why did source divide? Because love loves to love. Each one of us is an aspect of that love, and at the same time, we are all Love. There is no trick; we all share the same viewpoints – past, present, future. There is no mystery; we are all aspects of the creator. But ... and there always is a but ... there is a trick and mystery after all, because as soon as we are born, we forget who we are, and the real trick is that this is the whole point of physical existence.

Hi Music!:)

I'm guessing that in terms of remembering who we are, that being able to remember every detail of this life and also having full recollection of our past lives, wouldn't do so much good ultimately, because in past lives we still suffered the same amnesia. I think perhaps that it would be most useful to remember the stages in between each life, then at least we would know our reasons for choosing to incarnate and what we hoped to achieve here.

Are there any techniques you could recommend whereby I may be able to start to remember who I truly am? Or to remember these in between lives?

I'll try anything twice(within reason). "Who am I?" seems to me, the most important question I could ever ask of myself.:)

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it! Joking aside, it happens to some spontaneously, it happens to others after years of working on themselves. There is no formula, and there are no rules. If you would like it to happen quickly, then perhaps ask the angels for assistance. For me, the angels are those parts of ourselves that extend into higher dimensional consciousness, and that have a stronger connection to what lies beyond the illusion. If we ask the angels for help with humility, truth, and love, they will answer. The most important thing, perhaps, is acceptance of ourselves, warts and all - we can hide nothing from the angels, they are elevated aspects of us after all. So if you can humbly ask for help to understand who you are, and you can bare all your faults to the light of love without self-judgment or shame, then you may be given a gift.

If it is not your time, I'm afraid you will just have to wait a little longer :)

The most important thing? Don't listen to what anyone tells you about connection with source and our true nature - all descriptions of this are processed by the imperfect mind that is loaded with the detritus of plodding through a life of illusion and agenda. When the time is right, it will come to you.

If I knew you in the flesh, and could sense your energy firsthand, I might be able to offer better advice, but you can always send your truth to me with your mind, and I will get back to you if I get anything.

I know you as a good soul though, and all you need to do is continue being yourself, and trusting in yourself. And love of course, even though some might say it is all a product of the mind :) My seeing is that it is the background state of all. Mind becomes nothing when we allow love to take centre stage.

[music]

now everyone talks about this love but this love has an aberration or it wouldn't hook you so much

This is exactly the point Jim. What you are talking about is not love, it is the desperate fumblings of the ego. What are hooks? What are holes for hooks to attach to? They are nothing but the pain of our repressed aspects crying out for love. They don't receive love because we have locked them away, so they drive us with a fake desire for love that pours hate and contempt upon the very thing they tell us they desire. When we take a hurt in life, we either deal, or we don't deal. If we don't deal, we attach that hurt to a part of us, and we lock it away. This repressed aspect of us gathers energy, becomes powerful, and has the ability to hook us in way that perverts the very thing it desires, but feels it can never have. Whenever you feel a hook, listen to what your body is telling you. Where do you feel discomfort? Where do you feel pain? This will give you a clue as to what the repressed aspect is. Find these injured parts of yourself, and give them love.

It is the saddest thing in physical reality, the belief that love does not exist. The belief that love is an addiction - a hook - a deception. Love, and the desire for love is the one and only thing that we all have in common. We have that in common, because love is the nature of source.

If you would find source, and find the source of your power, then I would suggest that you must relearn the art of falling in love with love.

edit: Jim see this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=682671&viewfull=1#post682671). Click on the link and read it. It is from my wife, partner, soulmate, whatever label we put, but what it means is that we are two aspects of the all that were side by side when love divided to create physical reality. If you would learn about love, really about love, without the feeble input of the human mind, I would advise you to search enfolded blue's posts. Hear what she says, she has been through the fire and come out of it into beautiful truth.

[jiminii]

now everyone talks about this love but this love has an aberration or it wouldn't hook you so much

This is exactly the point Jim. What you are talking about is not love, it is the desperate fumblings of the ego. What are hooks? What are holes for hooks to attach to? They are nothing but the pain of our repressed aspects crying out for love. They don't receive love because we have locked them away, so they drive us with a fake desire for love that pours hate and contempt upon the very thing they tell us they desire. When we take a hurt in life, we either deal, or we don't deal. If we don't deal, we attach that hurt to a part of us, and we lock it away. This repressed aspect of us gathers energy, becomes powerful, and has the ability to hook us in way that perverts the very thing it desires, but feels it can never have. Whenever you feel a hook, listen to what your body is telling you. Where do you feel discomfort? Where do you feel pain? This will give you a clue as to what the repressed aspect is. Find these injured parts of yourself, and give them love.

It is the saddest thing in physical reality, the belief that love does not exist. The belief that love is an addiction - a hook - a deception. Love, and the desire for love is the one and only thing that we all have in common. We have that in common, because love is the nature of source.

If you would find source, and find the source of your power, then I would suggest that you must relearn the art of falling in love with love.

edit: Jim see this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=682671&viewfull=1#post682671). Click on the link and read it. It is from my wife, partner, soulmate, whatever label we put, but what it means is that we are two aspects of the all that were side by side when love divided to create physical reality. If you would learn about love, really about love, without the feeble input of the human mind, I would advise you to search enfolded blue's posts. Hear what she says, she has been through the fire and come out of it into beautiful truth.

I can relate to affinity .. liking .. the more liking the more you want to be closer to someone ... but that is like ... love ... really don't know what that is ... passion maybe hahaha


well I have passion ... can do all that ... but be in love ... what is that
just like someone a lot ... the initial sensations disappear ,. anyway ... goes to like for me .. just REALLY like the person

like that

jim

[music]

This is something I left out of my share above that I feel is important enough to double post with.
The word that many use for the ultimate reality or state of being is love and in your post Jimini, you point out some real problems with that word because it is usually used to refer to some sort of qualified love, conditional agreement or something that is too restrictive to hold what we actually are. Again I think the mind loves to come in, create objects that persist so it can pretend to be the boss, and grab attention from
pure being. When others on this site use the word love, I think many of them really understand that there is something there beyond any kind of objectification or ownership.
jf

Great post, thank you. Leave this line to reflect on your good words before I have my say :)

Perhaps we could think that there are two kinds of love? When we, in this reality think of love, we think of it from the human, ego-based, CHILDISH perspective, where the love of the all just is, and is CHILDLIKE.

Let's think for a minute about the difference between CHILDISH, and CHILDLIKE.

CHILDLIKE wonder at the beauty and perfection of all that is. Pure being.

CHILDISH insistence that everything goes our way, and that everything that doesn't pander to us just sucks. Pure ego.

When all the hooks and tantrums of the very, very, very small ego are displayed against the background state of pure being within a state of CHILDLIKE wonder, we see them for the shallow trap they are. There is no power within the trap, and the people who would control us can't even see that. It is laughable, but a good natured laugh that says "hey, look how foolish we can be, aren't we silly!"


And, yes, in a state of pure being, we can see the games the would be controllers try to play against us, and these too, we meet with a smile.

[music]

And so, we come to the difference between human love and the love of higher consciousness that connects to the all.

Human love, based in the heart chakra, is unfortunately preyed upon by the ego to such an extent that it is a perversion of a distortion. It is a distortion because it is a mundane reflection of a truth that exists in the ultimate realm beyond time and space. It is a perversion because it has become subordinate to ego, and ego (when it becomes the lord and master) is the killer of truth and beauty. Ego, in its proper place as one of a set of tools with which we navigate physical reality, is a good thing, but ego is fed by insecurity and agenda so that it believes that it is all there is. Ego distorts all that it fears. Ego is used by those who would control us.

And here, again, we come to a crucial point: fear.

Think about fear.

[music]

And now, think about the higher love that is our essential nature. Based in the high heart chakra, it at first appears as cold and distant, but that is because it is free of the hooks and holes with which the ego has sown the bulk of the human heart.

Compassion, rather pity. Non-attachment, rather than acceptance.

Every human emotion is a distorted reflection of a higher notion, and these higher notions are our true and essential nature.

Love is not the polar opposite of fear.

Fear is merely the inability to feel love.

Love has no polar opposite, because love is the unification of the poles, with the third part of the trinity, that we may call magic.

[jiminii]

And now, think about the higher love that is our essential nature. Based in the high heart chakra, it at first appears as cold and distant, but that is because it is free of the hooks and holes with which the ego has sown the bulk of the human heart.

Compassion, rather pity. Non-attachment, rather than acceptance.

Every human emotion is a distorted reflection of a higher notion, and these higher notions are our true and essential nature.

Love is not the polar opposite of fear.

Fear is merely the inability to feel love.

Love has no polar opposite, because love is the unification of the poles, with the third part of the trinity, that we may call magic.

you see what I mean .. childlike love is me as a kid ... clean pure .. no hooks

and this passion with the hooks .. is some kind of happy sad hook they put into the passion to hook us harder and that is not love
that is like obsession and compulsion and I was 4 and my friend across the street was 5 .. and he tells me what these organs are for ... so I run to my sisters and say, (since we took baths together) .. "do you know what those things are for?" .. so I tell them and we try to experiment .. and really can't see what the purpose was ... so dropped and go do something else
hahah
I mean no one could do anything like that at that age ... but there was no compulsion and distortion obsession or passion ... we were before the hooks will start on us in our teens and even then it was still innocent. a curious thing to do until the first explosion .. and suddenly they've hook us with some kind of human implant that will tear us apart if we let it

but I still remember and that is that and I remember in the bible "unless ye become like a little child you can not enter the kingdom of heaven" .. so I decided never to grow up,

and lose what is me
and i was right.

jim

[lakewatcher]

I see a dimension in which I look out (with 360" vision) all I can see all around me are mirrors reaching out into infinity...I see myself reflected everywhere in different states and forms. I once saw myself from this perspective and was frightened by what I saw...me. Now when I flash to this perspective I love what I see...and what I see loves me. I am filled with the beauty, excitement, wonderment and joy of what I am.
We’ve been programmed to look outside of ourselves for love and acceptance. It finally feels like the time is approaching when we stop trying to do things backwards. It’s like so many of us have our lights shining outwardly, either searching, attracting, or trying to light the way, but when we realize that by turning our lights, inward into our hearts, by learning to love ourselves completely, unconditionally, we actually become STARS that radiate from the point of God (that point in our hearts where we all meet). When the light shines forth purely from our hearts, we discover and become all that we were ever trying to find.

From this day on I felt an incredible sense of relief..it was up to me and I chose love.

If we agree, for the purpose of discussion, to allow existence to be symbolized by a huge two dimensional plane, stretching out from where we presently are infinitely in all directions before us, then we have to ask ourselves, "How shall we navigate such an expanse?"

Modern science chose as its guiding compass the goal of conquest of reality by mankind. Personally, I suspect that that approach will end up in a dead end eventually. A hole that they will have dug themselves into that they can't get out of, at least not by themselves.

But there is an alternative approach that I like better. And that is to use as our navigational polestar upon this vast plane of existence, that spark of light within and the love that is the essence withing that spark. If we follow that compass, I think it will eventually lead us back to the location on our imaginary plane where we once again comprehend all of the plane. We don't need to conquer the plane because we are the plane.

I agree with you. For me, your choice is the right choice. Just adding my little two cents ...

Love and blessings to you and Music.

lakewatcher

[lakewatcher]

And now, think about the higher love that is our essential nature. Based in the high heart chakra, it at first appears as cold and distant, but that is because it is free of the hooks and holes with which the ego has sown the bulk of the human heart.

Compassion, rather pity. Non-attachment, rather than acceptance.

Every human emotion is a distorted reflection of a higher notion, and these higher notions are our true and essential nature.

Love is not the polar opposite of fear.

Fear is merely the inability to feel love.

Love has no polar opposite, because love is the unification of the poles, with the third part of the trinity, that we may call magic.

Hi music,

I suspect that you are probably familiar with the diagrams in esoteric works that represent the planes lower than the upper heart chakra as a symmetrical, inverted reflection of the planes that include the higher heart chakra and above.

The lower planes are an inverted and perverted version of the reality that exists in its natural and pure form in the planes above. For example, in the planes below we commonly seek power over others in order to better serve ourselves, whereas in the planes above we seek power over ourselves in order to better serve others.

In the second half of the creative cycle, wherein we journey back home to our source, a major task for us in that return is to take all of the perversions we have acquired in our sojourn in separational consciousness, and to identify what each one of them actually represents, albeit in degraded form, in the planes above. Then we have to transmute those degraded attributes back into their original natural higher forms, and reintegrate those features of ourselves back into our higher plane selves.

This work of transmutation is done through love, courage and IMO with the absolutely indispensable aid of the Christ Consciousness. In my experience, it's hard work. But, as far as I know, we can't get back home without doing it.

In other words, we have to take all the spiritual lead in ourselves and transmute it back into the spiritual gold that it originally was. We have to go through the refiner's fire.

Just chiming in a bit on the subject you addressed above.

Namaste my friend.

[soleil]

now everyone talks about this love but this love has an aberration or it wouldn't hook you so much

This is exactly the point Jim. What you are talking about is not love, it is the desperate fumblings of the ego. What are hooks? What are holes for hooks to attach to? They are nothing but the pain of our repressed aspects crying out for love. They don't receive love because we have locked them away, so they drive us with a fake desire for love that pours hate and contempt upon the very thing they tell us they desire. When we take a hurt in life, we either deal, or we don't deal. If we don't deal, we attach that hurt to a part of us, and we lock it away. This repressed aspect of us gathers energy, becomes powerful, and has the ability to hook us in way that perverts the very thing it desires, but feels it can never have. Whenever you feel a hook, listen to what your body is telling you. Where do you feel discomfort? Where do you feel pain? This will give you a clue as to what the repressed aspect is. Find these injured parts of yourself, and give them love.

It is the saddest thing in physical reality, the belief that love does not exist. The belief that love is an addiction - a hook - a deception. Love, and the desire for love is the one and only thing that we all have in common. We have that in common, because love is the nature of source.

If you would find source, and find the source of your power, then I would suggest that you must relearn the art of falling in love with love.

edit: Jim see this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59506-Bill-Why-Dianetics-is-Not-For-Me&p=682671&viewfull=1#post682671). Click on the link and read it. It is from my wife, partner, soulmate, whatever label we put, but what it means is that we are two aspects of the all that were side by side when love divided to create physical reality. If you would learn about love, really about love, without the feeble input of the human mind, I would advise you to search enfolded blue's posts. Hear what she says, she has been through the fire and come out of it into beautiful truth.

I can relate to affinity .. liking .. the more liking the more you want to be closer to someone ... but that is like ... love ... really don't know what that is ... passion maybe hahaha


well I have passion ... can do all that ... but be in love ... what is that
just like someone a lot ... the initial sensations disappear ,. anyway ... goes to like for me .. just REALLY like the person

like that

jim
hey jim, affinity in relation to the heart chakra is available here. i knew i read it somewhere.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/141895358/Anodea-Judith-Wheels-of-Life
pg 287, on this scribd file talks about affinity. same author same book as the one i mentioned in another thread about chakra's and energy coming in through the crown, or going up.

[greybeard]

One enlightened teacher I had said
"No one belongs to me and I belong to no one, except God,"

The key word is belong as in owning --also as part of.

Nasargadatta said Unconditional love does not happen until you are enlightened---there is always pay value expected from the action, even if it is only to be appreciated. There is me and the other--duality.
In the enlightened state its more that love is happening--sitting is happening, teaching is occurring--there is no person behind it any longer.

The Bagavad Gita says.
Events happen
Deeds are done
There is no doer there of.

Christ said
"Of myself I do nothing.
It is the Father within who is the doer."

Chris