Snowden's "mistake"

[Chester]

I am in no position to cast judgment either way on Mr. Snowden. On one level, and from the "patriotic" point of view, he is a traitor. On another level, the view that some take that believes in a concept of what America is supposed to be about based on popular interpretations of the intent of the US Constitution, he's a brave hero.

But what if there's more to it than meets the eye of either side of the above views?

What if the current sampling of us common folk amongst humanity on earth have been targeted by beings not amongst the common folk of Earth - targeted by types of beings that are a.) physical, non earth born beings or b.) physical beings that are compromised by non physical beings or c.) non physical beings - targeted for reasons that might not be in the best interests of Earthly humanity?

And these agencies such as the NSA (including other non US intelligence agencies from other jurisdictions around the world) were monitoring humanity as part of a plan that has a goal in achieving sovereignty for humanity.

Clearly, we can see (as Richard Dolan and others have pointed out), disclosure would be quite difficult, yes?

But if this were the case, then Snowden's "innocent" actions may actually have "global security implications."

And this is why, when someone gives their word, especially in relation to things that he was involved with, you don't go out blabbering like he did because you don't know the full picture.

This is the mistake Snowden made IMO.

Now, if the above scenario I suggested were true... should he have still opened his mouth?

I wonder what Avalonians think.

[white wizard]

It's funny how one man can shake the foundations of peoples trust in

a government. One day he will be considered a hero, but people need

wake up before the magnitude of what he did can be appreciated.


Imagine if there were ten snowden's that came forward instead of one.

[norman]

Interesting idea, but you'll have to flesh out what might be the reasoning behind the intimate monitoring of the human population.

[Chester]

It's funny how one man can shake the foundations of peoples trust in

a government. One day he will be considered a hero, but people need

wake up before the magnitude of what he did can be appreciated.


Imagine if there were ten snowden's that came forward instead of one.

Actually there are... these sorts of things "snowdenball."

But if one could consider the potential damage these "heros" create (when considering the scenario mentioned in the OP), isn't it possible the actions of well intended but under informed whistle blowers could do far more damage than good>

Do we ever consider that ever since the decisions made in the early 50s came about, the US (and how the US in this regard has impacted the entire planet) created a situation which may best unwind (if it can) in some other way?

We shall see.

I do know this... anyone with a brain should have realized long, long ago (before Icke started his "mission") that Big Brother was here and very well established.

[naste.de.lumina]

I'm suspicious of the intentions of mens.
The intentions of archontes I'm sure.

[Mercedes]

We are truth seekers, and so we want everything out for us to see, secrecy has ruled for too long

[Another1]

I do know this... anyone with a brain should have realized long, long ago (before Icke started his "mission") that Big Brother was here and very well established.

This is what stays in front for me.
We all knew this stuff.
The terrozits sure knew it.
What damage has he done?

It's not like he gave nuke tech to an ally under the table. He gave us no more than what we can get by watching a couple of action movies on the big screen or reading internet archives from alternative sites.

[Chester]

Interesting idea, but you'll have to flesh out what might be the reasoning behind the intimate monitoring of the human population.

OK, but it takes an open mind to consider this "fleshing out" and perhaps some serious, courageous study of the content found in the Horus-Ra thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40941-Horus-Ra-as-the-Archontic-Alien-Parasite-A-follow-up-interview-with-Maarit).

So, if you have studied this thread, you know that the thread suggests the most significant issue faced by humanity is the assault on the human soul.

If there are enough "good guys" in positions of strength and power, I could see how the monitoring of individuals allows these agencies to identify what types of "attachments" are involved with each individual. By doing that, you can micro-manage the situation and this have a leg up on resolution.

The "skeptical" human - the "suspicious of others" human may simply be behavioral manifestations of compromised humans and thus are part of the defenses employed by the aliens.

And thus the reason these programs have been kept secret as now that the cat is out of the bag, I have no doubt their operational capacities are reduced.

Of course, I am simply speculating... but I am very open minded about these things having personally dealt with a quite nasty Horus-Ra entity since I was 6 years old.

[Chester]

We are truth seekers, and so we want everything out for us to see, secrecy has ruled for too long

My personal wish is the same as yours.

And I back that up by example by having zero secrets in my life other than the few my wife has asked me to keep from her. This is a 99.9% true statement.

[Chester]

I do know this... anyone with a brain should have realized long, long ago (before Icke started his "mission") that Big Brother was here and very well established.

This is what stays in front for me.
We all knew this stuff.
The terrozits sure knew it.
What damage has he done?

It's not like he gave nuke tech to an ally under the table. He gave us no more than what we can get by watching a couple of action movies on the big screen or reading internet archives from alternative sites.

The problem is this and based on the average, current human being. Yes, we "know" this... most of us privately admit this is true to ourselves individually. But when you throw it out in front of the current form of human ego, suddenly the ego springs into action and is "outraged!" "How dare they!!"

So I can understand (which is not saying I approve of or condone but who made me king??) that these things have been kept under the table and out of the direct eye sight of the general public.

[Chester]

If one looks at the cosmogony from Dr. Malanga, the battle here on Earth is for the souls of each individual human.

That battle is waged first through the mind (gnostic view - see materials from John Lash (http://www.metahistory.org/)) and then at the level of the body.

The mind is the only shared battleground we humans have with the souless, incorporeal aliens. It is also through the mind that the level 1 creation of Creator 1 (which is known as the Primordial man... the Atman) "manages" humanity.

Malanga suggests that PM created the physical (corporeal) aliens (level 2 creation of creator 1) to perform the task of "dying" such that eternal consciousness" could experience "ending" yet "death" could be avoided by the PM. The aliens created the current human as "soul containers" (thus we are the level 3 creation of creator 1). See (as the theory goes), without the soul, there can be no eternal life.

On the one hand, the incorporeal aliens wish to have eternal life and achieve that through "possession" of a human. The corporeal aliens implant their mind/spirit components into a human that has a soul so that that alien can continue to live. This can only be done to a human who is not integrated - meaning a human that has their primary components of soul and spirit and mind... that these components are relatively balanced and sovereign and thus the soul (which is the actual, immortal component as it is not bound by time) and thus is in charge of all components at our experiential level.

I am sure I lost most folks with what I just typed (see this link (http://flashmentalsimulation.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/genesis-i-part-1/)... I read this at least 5 or so times now in attempts to understand Dr. Malanga's cosmology)... but for those who might understand this possibly true cosmology, then the human is on its own and so it would not be hard to see how a group of humans who might have achieved re-integration might then seek methods to ensure we don't lose our souls while at the same time ensure that the PM doesn't pull an apocalypse scenario as some believe occurred with Atlantis.

So I ask you, if this scenario I just suggested were true... how the heck could we expect those in charge of the "save humanity" project feel it is safe to explain all this to all of humanity?

Anyways, fortunately, I am a nobody and so I have no concerns someone might get upset with my posts considering the cats are already fleeing the bags.

More (http://evelorgen.com/wp/articles/alien-abduction/alien-hierarchies-and-the-research-of-dr-corrado-malanga-an-interview-with-dr-malanga-through-dorica-manu/) on "Alien Hierarchies."

[T Smith]

I am in no position to cast judgment either way on Mr. Snowden. On one level, and from the "patriotic" point of view, he is a traitor. On another level, the view that some take that believes in a concept of what America is supposed to be about based on popular interpretations of the intent of the US Constitution, he's a brave hero.

But what if there's more to it than meets the eye of either side of the above views?

What if the current sampling of us common folk amongst humanity on earth have been targeted by beings not amongst the common folk of Earth - targeted by types of beings that are a.) physical, non earth born beings or b.) physical beings that are compromised by non physical beings or c.) non physical beings - targeted for reasons that might not be in the best interests of Earthly humanity?

And these agencies such as the NSA (including other non US intelligence agencies from other jurisdictions around the world) were monitoring humanity as part of a plan that has a goal in achieving sovereignty for humanity.

Clearly, we can see (as Richard Dolan and others have pointed out), disclosure would be quite difficult, yes?

But if this were the case, then Snowden's "innocent" actions may actually have "global security implications."

And this is why, when someone gives their word, especially in relation to things that he was involved with, you don't go out blabbering like he did because you don't know the full picture.

This is the mistake Snowden made IMO.

Now, if the above scenario I suggested were true... should he have still opened his mouth?

I wonder what Avalonians think.

My first question would be, in what possible context is he a traitor?

As far as I can see, this is nothing but a propaganda talking point.

[grannyfranny100]

What's the old story, blame the messenger when you don't like the message. Too hard to accept you are being conned and that some highly principled whistleblower is risking his life so you will wake up.

[Chester]

What's the old story, blame the messenger when you don't like the message. Too hard to accept you are being conned and that some highly principled whistleblower is risking his life so you will wake up.

If my comments were taken for "blame" then my comments went over the head of the reader. No blame here - this is what humans do. I may have done the same if I had walked in Snowden's shoes (at age 29).

It is what it is.

My speculations are meant to expand further as to what may be (in part) behind such projects of agencies such as the NSA and meant for those who have the capacity to open their mind and discuss the possibilities I raised as to what might be the bigger picture.

[Chester]

I am in no position to cast judgment either way on Mr. Snowden. On one level, and from the "patriotic" point of view, he is a traitor. On another level, the view that some take that believes in a concept of what America is supposed to be about based on popular interpretations of the intent of the US Constitution, he's a brave hero.

But what if there's more to it than meets the eye of either side of the above views?

What if the current sampling of us common folk amongst humanity on earth have been targeted by beings not amongst the common folk of Earth - targeted by types of beings that are a.) physical, non earth born beings or b.) physical beings that are compromised by non physical beings or c.) non physical beings - targeted for reasons that might not be in the best interests of Earthly humanity?

And these agencies such as the NSA (including other non US intelligence agencies from other jurisdictions around the world) were monitoring humanity as part of a plan that has a goal in achieving sovereignty for humanity.

Clearly, we can see (as Richard Dolan and others have pointed out), disclosure would be quite difficult, yes?

But if this were the case, then Snowden's "innocent" actions may actually have "global security implications."

And this is why, when someone gives their word, especially in relation to things that he was involved with, you don't go out blabbering like he did because you don't know the full picture.

This is the mistake Snowden made IMO.

Now, if the above scenario I suggested were true... should he have still opened his mouth?

I wonder what Avalonians think.

My first question would be, in what possible context is he a traitor?

As far as I can see, this is nothing but a propaganda talking point.

I can see the viewpoint of the government agency that contracted with a private company where the contractors were required to sign confidentiality oaths/agreements. From that point of view, since the agency is an agency of a sovereign nation, that the contractor would be viewed as a traitor to his country is clear.

Yet Snowden's point of view is that he was avoiding being a traitor to the US Constitution by bringing what he knows (or at least thinks he knows) to the forefront of public view.

This will play out in the courts.

I take no stand either way though I do know if I took an oath like he did, I would not go public because (as my OP and subsequent posts state) there may be a bigger picture which I am not "read into" thus I may need to consider that possibility first (which it seems Snowden did not) and then therefore honor the trust and faith placed in me that I would uphold the oath I have taken.

There's a great deal of confidentiality I have experienced here on the Avalon Forum and I found it important to honor that confidentiality and for that reason, I have made lasting friends who have been helpful to me as well as has given me the chance to be helpful for them.

I mean seriously, if we could wave a magic wand that would eliminate all secrets, all the lies told of human history, all the lies that created religions, all the lies covering up the ongoing practice of human/animal sacrifice and first and foremost - all the lies we tell ourselves to protect a fiction we call the ego, then we should...

But we don't. So until we do, maybe our world requires management in this regard.

[Corncrake]

If Snowden had sold the information to a foreign government for financial gain or just to make mischief, I believe he could be called a traitor. However, what he has done is give up a secure career and freedom to tell us - through a respectable newspaper - that we are being spied upon and in the process has thoroughly embarrassed the government and its allies. I don't see how he could have done it any other way.

[Chester]

If Snowden had sold the information to a foreign government for financial gain or just to make mischief, I believe he could be called a traitor. However, what he has done is give up a secure career and freedom to tell us - through a respectable newspaper - that we are being spied upon and in the process has thoroughly embarrassed the government and its allies. I don't see how he could have done it any other way.

I agree... But also, his actions do not take into consideration what he does not know.

We can only judge his actions right or wrong / good or bad at some point in the future... as long as that future hasn't been overly compromised by his actions and no one is here left to judge.

[Another1]

~ 'something' is so important that anything they do to us or hide from us is justified because 'they' know what is best for us and people like Snowden could be harming us?

This is the same kind of logic which kept me in various religious groups many years longer than I would choose to on a 2nd trip through this verse ... 'it's God afterall, you don't know the big picture, He knows what is best for you' - then it was a buttload of gurus/assended masters through books 'n channelers ...

I for one would love to believe that people at top of control pyramid care about us individual humans but past experience has no real basis for this to build upon. The higher up I've gone in society, the less concern for others I found. It really p**** off some bosses too when they realize they let a altruistic dreamer into their management team.

[The One]

And its all in the name of bloody National Security.How many more times are they going to use that card.All these corrupt governments think about is protecting themselves,its them if anyone that should be arrested.Its great to see more and more people waking up stepping out of their comfort zone and realising these parasites have been in the wrong for a long time.Now apparently the UK are doing it worse than America from the GCHQ listening headquarters but get this apparently in the UK its all legal,well they kept that god dam quite.My advise to anyone who goes working for the government departments they are the most corrupt organisations known to exist.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=575_Fz76A5w

lol

[T Smith]

Interesting idea, but you'll have to flesh out what might be the reasoning behind the intimate monitoring of the human population.

If I might take a stab at this one... There is much speculation and theorizing on this issue, but we can render the advanced surveillance currently afoot down to something very simple. The official explanation is surveillance is required for our own safety, to avert terrorist attacks and combat those who want to hurt us. And to some degree this is true (which is how the propaganda masters and Madison Avenue can get away with such blatant nonsense), depending on how we define and accept the meaning of words like "terrorism" and "us." As far as the establishment is concerned, and as far as the rhetoric and propaganda they continually bombard us with (which brainwashes the public's understanding of the words by themselves), "terrorism" is any threat to the power structure that controls and envelops the people, which they then simply define as "us". Similarly, what is "national security"? National security is simply the security and standing of the power structure. This is why everyday citizens who might have a "beef" with the government are potentially "terrorists", and why the truth is always a threat to national security. The American people have bought into these concepts and terms, and they have a hard time seeing past them. But what does this all have to do with surveillance?

The only way to control the masses (and thus remain in control) is first to control the flow of information. This is the primary reason the power structure needs to monitor all internet traffic and surveil every conversation, email, etc., i.e. so to maintain control. In other words, the prerequisite to controlling the flow of information is first to survey how the people understand the information. This is a much more effective tactic than outright censorship, because once you understand how people receive and process the information, you can tweak the propaganda accordingly to literally shape the public consciousness and herd the audience into a small neat box of awareness. With censorship, the people understand they are being deceived and often read between the lines. This isn't always true of sophisticated propaganda. The most effective way to manipulate awareness unbeknownst to the people is to engage in covert surveillance. In other words, you must first know your audience before you can mold your audience. This is nothing more than sales 101. A good salesman needs to get into the mind of the person he's selling before he can close a deal.

Some people speculate that the ultimate objective underlying the current invasion of privacy is a sinister plot by the government to smoke out and hunt down political dissidents. While this is true to some degree, it is only a secondary objective and employed by handlers of the information to a much lesser extent and as a last resort. The main objective of the massive surveillance apparatus is to keep us in the matrix. This is accomplished by probing and manipulating our consciousness. And of course, if a threat to the power structure emerges beyond the scope of manipulating the public opinion as a weapon to extinguish the threat, there is always a surgical solution, such as an assassination, a drone strike, an "accident", a sudden sickness, etc. As Gary Allen, Aaron Russo, Pat Tillman, Andrew Breitbart, Aaron Swartz, Michael Hastings, and the list goes on and on, know about all too well.

[T Smith]

I am in no position to cast judgment either way on Mr. Snowden. On one level, and from the "patriotic" point of view, he is a traitor. On another level, the view that some take that believes in a concept of what America is supposed to be about based on popular interpretations of the intent of the US Constitution, he's a brave hero.

But what if there's more to it than meets the eye of either side of the above views?

What if the current sampling of us common folk amongst humanity on earth have been targeted by beings not amongst the common folk of Earth - targeted by types of beings that are a.) physical, non earth born beings or b.) physical beings that are compromised by non physical beings or c.) non physical beings - targeted for reasons that might not be in the best interests of Earthly humanity?

And these agencies such as the NSA (including other non US intelligence agencies from other jurisdictions around the world) were monitoring humanity as part of a plan that has a goal in achieving sovereignty for humanity.

Clearly, we can see (as Richard Dolan and others have pointed out), disclosure would be quite difficult, yes?

But if this were the case, then Snowden's "innocent" actions may actually have "global security implications."

And this is why, when someone gives their word, especially in relation to things that he was involved with, you don't go out blabbering like he did because you don't know the full picture.

This is the mistake Snowden made IMO.

Now, if the above scenario I suggested were true... should he have still opened his mouth?

I wonder what Avalonians think.

My first question would be, in what possible context is he a traitor?

As far as I can see, this is nothing but a propaganda talking point.

I can see the viewpoint of the government agency that contracted with a private company where the contractors were required to sign confidentiality oaths/agreements. From that point of view, since the agency is an agency of a sovereign nation, that the contractor would be viewed as a traitor to his country is clear.

Yet Snowden's point of view is that he was avoiding being a traitor to the US Constitution by bringing what he knows (or at least thinks he knows) to the forefront of public view.

This will play out in the courts.

I take no stand either way though I do know if I took an oath like he did, I would not go public because (as my OP and subsequent posts state) there may be a bigger picture which I am not "read into" thus I may need to consider that possibility first (which it seems Snowden did not) and then therefore honor the trust and faith placed in me that I would uphold the oath I have taken.

There's a great deal of confidentiality I have experienced here on the Avalon Forum and I found it important to honor that confidentiality and for that reason, I have made lasting friends who have been helpful to me as well as has given me the chance to be helpful for them.

I mean seriously, if we could wave a magic wand that would eliminate all secrets, all the lies told of human history, all the lies that created religions, all the lies covering up the ongoing practice of human/animal sacrifice and first and foremost - all the lies we tell ourselves to protect a fiction we call the ego, then we should...

But we don't. So until we do, maybe our world requires management in this regard.

If there is a bigger picture--and there certainly is--it should be out in the open. If humanity if facing a grave challenge--and it certainly is--it should be out in the open so the whole of the species can face the challenge in unity and with the resources, creativity, and spirituality of every person engaging the issue. In short, it's time we grow up as a people. If the issue is grave enough to threaten our very survival (and it may be) full disclosure would be the best shot we have at defeating the intra-dimensional threat. The heart, mind, and spirt of the many is many times more effective and powerful than the heart, mind, and spirit of the select few. There is no valid argument, in my mind, to maintain secrecy. Yes, there may be chaos and havoc that ensues in the short term, but this consequence, if realized, would only be the ramification of decades of poor decisions of managing the secrecy. Eventually a new order would ensue out of any ashes and the whole of the species can realize its destiny.

As for the first part, I'm open to entertaining the idea that Snowden can be viewed as a traitor to his county, but I'm not informed on the specific facts you mention. What was the specific oath he took and to whom? If you could spell out the details and expand further that would be appreciated.

[sigma6]

I do know this... anyone with a brain should have realized long, long ago (before Icke started his "mission") that Big Brother was here and very well established.

That may be true... but computer technology and the digitizing of all communication systems... changes everything in terms of the leverage a small group of people can have over an infinite number of others.

[Chester]

oooops did not see the last few posts

[Chester]

I am in no position to cast judgment either way on Mr. Snowden. On one level, and from the "patriotic" point of view, he is a traitor. On another level, the view that some take that believes in a concept of what America is supposed to be about based on popular interpretations of the intent of the US Constitution, he's a brave hero.

But what if there's more to it than meets the eye of either side of the above views?

What if the current sampling of us common folk amongst humanity on earth have been targeted by beings not amongst the common folk of Earth - targeted by types of beings that are a.) physical, non earth born beings or b.) physical beings that are compromised by non physical beings or c.) non physical beings - targeted for reasons that might not be in the best interests of Earthly humanity?

And these agencies such as the NSA (including other non US intelligence agencies from other jurisdictions around the world) were monitoring humanity as part of a plan that has a goal in achieving sovereignty for humanity.

Clearly, we can see (as Richard Dolan and others have pointed out), disclosure would be quite difficult, yes?

But if this were the case, then Snowden's "innocent" actions may actually have "global security implications."

And this is why, when someone gives their word, especially in relation to things that he was involved with, you don't go out blabbering like he did because you don't know the full picture.

This is the mistake Snowden made IMO.

Now, if the above scenario I suggested were true... should he have still opened his mouth?

I wonder what Avalonians think.

My first question would be, in what possible context is he a traitor?

As far as I can see, this is nothing but a propaganda talking point.

I can see the viewpoint of the government agency that contracted with a private company where the contractors were required to sign confidentiality oaths/agreements. From that point of view, since the agency is an agency of a sovereign nation, that the contractor would be viewed as a traitor to his country is clear.

Yet Snowden's point of view is that he was avoiding being a traitor to the US Constitution by bringing what he knows (or at least thinks he knows) to the forefront of public view.

This will play out in the courts.

I take no stand either way though I do know if I took an oath like he did, I would not go public because (as my OP and subsequent posts state) there may be a bigger picture which I am not "read into" thus I may need to consider that possibility first (which it seems Snowden did not) and then therefore honor the trust and faith placed in me that I would uphold the oath I have taken.

There's a great deal of confidentiality I have experienced here on the Avalon Forum and I found it important to honor that confidentiality and for that reason, I have made lasting friends who have been helpful to me as well as has given me the chance to be helpful for them.

I mean seriously, if we could wave a magic wand that would eliminate all secrets, all the lies told of human history, all the lies that created religions, all the lies covering up the ongoing practice of human/animal sacrifice and first and foremost - all the lies we tell ourselves to protect a fiction we call the ego, then we should...

But we don't. So until we do, maybe our world requires management in this regard.

If there is a bigger picture--and there certainly is--is should be out in the open. If humanity if facing a grave challenge--and it certainly is--it should be out in the open so the whole of the species can face the challenge in unity and with the resources, creativity, and spirituality of every person engaging the issue. In short, it's time we grow up as a people. If the issue is grave enough to threaten our very survival (and it may be) full disclosure would be the best shot we have at defeating the intra-dimensional threat. The heart, mind, and spirt of the many is many times more effective and powerful than the heart, mind, and spirit of the select few. There is no valid argument, in my mind, to maintain secrecy. Yes, there may be chaos and havoc that ensues in the short term, but this consequence, if realized, would only be the ramification of decades of poor decisions of managing the secrecy. Eventually a new order would ensue out of any ashes and the whole of the species can realize its destiny.

As for the first part, I'm open to entertaining the idea that Snowden can be viewed as a traitor to his county, but I'm not informed on the specific facts you mention. What was the specific oath he took and to whom? If you could spell out the details and expand further that would be appreciated.


Hi, from what has been publicized, these contractors sign confidentiality agreements, non disclosure agreements, etc. The private companies that contract with government agencies do the same. In essence, this is an oath that one takes in that you give your word that you will not reveal what you discover when you are brought into these projects.

Now, there is a mechanism for whistle blowers whereby they can bring forth information related to improprieties. Snowden did not take that route.

Now let's look at some realities. many folks who have "blown the whistle" through the proper channels have endured some difficulties such as black balling, harassment by law enforcement, ridicule, closed doors for future employment, etc.

So though there is a process, previous whistle blowers who have taken the provided track have suffered and perhaps Snowden knew this and that played into his decision to do what he did.

All I have attempted to do here is present various points of view. This is a complex situation.

I also attempted to present a possibility as to why there are such agencies as the NSA - reasons that cannot be presented to the general public because a.) the public wouldn't believe it b.) if true, the public that might be open to believing it may not be capable of handling the truth (Thank you Colonel Jessup) or c.) that the general public would be ready for a rapid, massive paradigm shift.

We are able (to some extent) to discuss these ideas here on this forum due to the nature of this forum and the quality of its membership... but how far would you get presenting the ideas I wrote about in post #11 with the general public?

This is why I feel membership to the Avalon forum is a responsibility. We have the opportunity to discuss publicly what cannot be so easily discussed out in the general public.

[Chester]

I do know this... anyone with a brain should have realized long, long ago (before Icke started his "mission") that Big Brother was here and very well established.

That may be true... but computer technology and the digitizing of all communication systems... changes everything in terms of the leverage a small group of people can have over an infinite number of others.

It is well known "the government" had quite impressive computer power in the 60s. Power that wasn't made commercially available to the public until the 90s - that is 30 years.

Big Brother has been here and well before 1984.

[enfoldedblue]

Hi Chester,

Well this thread got me thinking. My background is sociology so when I read some of the above it made me think of Foucault and his Panopticon. So I was inspired to revisit his idea. What I found on the first site I visited seems very relevant.


The Panopticon was a metaphor that allowed Foucault to explore the relationship between 1.) systems of social control and people in a disciplinary situation and, 2.) the power-knowledge concept. In his view, power and knowledge comes from observing others. It marked the transition to a disciplinary power, with every movement supervised and all events recorded. The result of this surveillance is acceptance of regulations and docility - a normalization of sorts, stemming from the threat of discipline. Suitable behaviour is achieved not through total surveillance, but by panoptic discipline and inducing a population to conform by the internalization of this reality. The actions of the observer are based upon this monitoring and the behaviours he sees exhibited; the more one observes, the more powerful one becomes. The power comes from the knowledge the observer has accumulated from his observations of actions in a circular fashion, with knowledge and power reinforcing each other. Foucault says that "by being combined and generalized, they attained a level at which the formation of knowledge and the increase in power regularly reinforce one another in a circular process" (Foucault 1977).

For Foucault, the real danger was not necessarily that individuals are repressed by the social order but that they are "carefully fabricated in it" (Foucault, 1977), and because there is a penetration of power into the behaviour of individuals. Power becomes more efficient through the mechanisms of observation, with knowledge following suit, always in search of "new objects of knowledge over all the surfaces on which power is exercised" (Foucault 1977).

When only certain people or groups of people control knowledge, oppression is a possibility. We need to find out who is recording our actions. At least then we will know who has power and who doesn't.
http://www.moyak.com/papers/michel-foucault-power.html

Now while I like things that make me think, I must say I am not clear about what you are actually saying. To me it seems similar to saying "maybe we are being treated like cattle for a higher purpose that almost all of us are not aware of ...maybe there is some good in this centralized control/power that we just cannot see?" I know you say that in order to understand I need to read and study the Horus-Ra thread, but that is not an option at this point. Is it not possible to offer at least some points as to why it might be good that a small centralized group have access to a wealth of information that as the above illustrates provides enormous power and facilitates domination of the majority.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

"National Security" is a tyrannical idea borne from the detritus of WWII and worse.

It's hard to know what's right and what's wrong when the agencies "defending" our country insist on putting it in harm's way by maintaining all these expensive secrets...

Why should any American have to shut his mouth when our gov't is always ****ing things up and trying to cover its expensive mistakes?

We effectively pay for our own muzzles in this country,
and it's about time to invest in muzzles of another kind, lol!

[Chester]

Hi Chester,

Well this thread got me thinking. My background is sociology so when I read some of the above it made me think of Foucault and his Panopticon. So I was inspired to revisit his idea. What I found on the first site I visited seems very relevant.


The Panopticon was a metaphor that allowed Foucault to explore the relationship between 1.) systems of social control and people in a disciplinary situation and, 2.) the power-knowledge concept. In his view, power and knowledge comes from observing others. It marked the transition to a disciplinary power, with every movement supervised and all events recorded. The result of this surveillance is acceptance of regulations and docility - a normalization of sorts, stemming from the threat of discipline. Suitable behaviour is achieved not through total surveillance, but by panoptic discipline and inducing a population to conform by the internalization of this reality. The actions of the observer are based upon this monitoring and the behaviours he sees exhibited; the more one observes, the more powerful one becomes. The power comes from the knowledge the observer has accumulated from his observations of actions in a circular fashion, with knowledge and power reinforcing each other. Foucault says that "by being combined and generalized, they attained a level at which the formation of knowledge and the increase in power regularly reinforce one another in a circular process" (Foucault 1977).

For Foucault, the real danger was not necessarily that individuals are repressed by the social order but that they are "carefully fabricated in it" (Foucault, 1977), and because there is a penetration of power into the behaviour of individuals. Power becomes more efficient through the mechanisms of observation, with knowledge following suit, always in search of "new objects of knowledge over all the surfaces on which power is exercised" (Foucault 1977).

When only certain people or groups of people control knowledge, oppression is a possibility. We need to find out who is recording our actions. At least then we will know who has power and who doesn't.
http://www.moyak.com/papers/michel-foucault-power.html

Now while I like things that make me think, I must say I am not clear about what you are actually saying. To me it seems similar to saying "maybe we are being treated like cattle for a higher purpose that almost all of us are not aware of ...maybe there is some good in this centralized control/power that we just cannot see?" I know you say that in order to understand I need to read and study the Horus-Ra thread, but that is not an option at this point. Is it not possible to offer at least some points as to why it might be good that a small centralized group have access to a wealth of information that as the above illustrates provides enormous power and facilitates domination of the majority.

Consider this - are we not already "dominated." I mean, I am using your word... I would use the word, "managed."

Are we not already "managed?"

If that's the case (as I believe it is), why are we not all sitting in FEMA camps today? Could there be some other, less nefarious plan? Could all the fear implantation via the media (movies and TV, the "news," the alternative media, etc.) could all that be to simply prepare us for...

the less worse?

Could there be folks here on earth who inherited responsibilities from a previous generation or two where their predecessors may have had truly horrific ideas for humanity, but the offspring may have modified those plans yet have retained the knowledge and technology handed to them? If that might be the case, would they be able to "disclose?" I would think they would have to implement a plan that results in civilization 2.0 without stirring up the planet.

Look at Brazil - all they did was increase bus fares. And they get riots in the streets for days.

If you were in the position of the so called PTBs, what would you do?

I am not at all stating what I think is right or wrong. This planet doesn't run on what we might think is morally right or wrong anyways. Surely we are aware of that by now.

I am doing my best to understand why these folks might be doing what they do.

Can you honestly tell me that huge new facility of the NSA in Utah is built to fight "terrorism." Well, the answer may be yes, but the terror may not be from Muslim extremists. That's why, unless you do go to the Horus-Ra thread and/or you do explore the information available regarding the alien agenda, it would be hard to follow my own exploration here that I feel compelled to share with Avalonians.

Note - I outlined the basic gist of the Horus-Ra thread in this thread over a few posts already... did you catch those enfoldedblue?

[spiritguide]

Regardless of the reasoning behind the NSA total digital spying on individuals. They act above the law of their founding nation. They need not subvert the law for their benefit but they can get the law changed in the manner proscribed by the founding document. Nsa/CIA were founded to forewarn the citizens of external enemies to the constitution and FBI was the agency founded to expunge the internal threats. The present Administration and oversight of these agencies is allowing the Constitution to be subverted and justice is lacking to rectify the situation. We need more than whistle blowers, we need true good guys in these administrations and in oversight to commission legal enforcement and deal with the true destroyers of the rights and government. Time for secrecy and its excuse "national security " be done away with. In my book anything else is an assault to the citizens.

Peace!

My avatar depicts that my soul stands upright as it has for mellinia... in any dimension.

[Chester]

Its hard to change the pattern of behavior of earth's leadership - a pattern that has existed for dozens of centuries. Yet now, technology has gone public (again) and thus there's a need to merge the two (or more) civilizations as peacefully as possible. That may be a potential goal of these programs as opposed to the popular theory to create two (or more) overt, distinct civilizations. But I imagine if that would be possible, it may depend on us (the masses) as to how well we accept what may turn out to be truths which in turn force us to live with having been lied to over all these centuries.

What's the odds we accept these things if true?

And if we don't, and they are the ones with all the power, what then may be our fate?

Tricky one, heh?

[enfoldedblue]

Consider this - are we not already "dominated." I mean, I am using your word... I would use the word, "managed."

Are we not already "managed?"

If that's the case (as I believe it is), why are we not all sitting in FEMA camps today? Could there be some other, less nefarious plan? Could all the fear implantation via the media (movies and TV, the "news," the alternative media, etc.) could all that be to simply prepare us for...

the less worse?

Could there be folks here on earth who inherited responsibilities from a previous generation or two where their predecessors may have had truly horrific ideas for humanity, but the offspring may have modified those plans yet have retained the knowledge and technology handed to them? If that might be the case, would they be able to "disclose?" I would think they would have to implement a plan that results in civilization 2.0 without stirring up the planet.

Look at Brazil - all they did was increase bus fares. And they get riots in the streets for days.

If you were in the position of the so called PTBs, what would you do?

I am not at all stating what I think is right or wrong. This planet doesn't run on what we might think is morally right or wrong anyways. Surely we are aware of that by now.

I am doing my best to understand why these folks might be doing what they do.

Can you honestly tell me that huge new facility of the NSA in Utah is built to fight "terrorism." Well, the answer may be yes, but the terror may not be from Muslim extremists. That's why, unless you do go to the Horus-Ra thread and/or you do explore the information available regarding the alien agenda, it would be hard to follow my own exploration here that I feel compelled to share with Avalonians.

Note - I outlined the basic gist of the Horus-Ra thread in this thread over a few posts already... did you catch those enfoldedblue? Parent Post

Ha ha....no I certainly don't think that NSA is to fight terrorism (for me, probably like most here, terrorism a tool in the mechanisms of control), and not sure how you came to that impression from my post. I absolutely believe we are being 'managed' and have been for a long time. I remember once in my late teens when a friend said to me "we are being farmed" and instantly I knew what she said was true. For me what they are doing is attempting to control chaos...and it is a bit like trying to control a fire: too much oppression and the fire goes out (game over) not enough oppression and you lose control. It is a fine balance.

I have read your other posts in the thread. But while there is possibility that the whole surveillance has been set up to protect our souls, it still seems potentially dangerous to me, as for me the real power important lies with the individuals, and moving away from the saviour idea. At one point you mentioned that maybe this was being done because humans were not ready or capable of handling the truth. I believe that humans are actually are actually amazing resilient creatures...who have been taught to giveaway their power since infancy. The problem is that many humans are accepting and trusting of the PTB and actually DO believe that they have their best interests at heart...they believe the lies they are told.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

[grannyfranny100]

What's the old story, blame the messenger when you don't like the message. Too hard to accept you are being conned and that some highly principled whistleblower is risking his life so you will wake up.

If my comments were taken for "blame" then my comments went over the head of the reader. No blame here - this is what humans do. I may have done the same if I had walked in Snowden's shoes (at age 29).

It is what it is.

My speculations are meant to expand further as to what may be (in part) behind such projects of agencies such as the NSA and meant for those who have the capacity to open their mind and discuss the possibilities I raised as to what might be the bigger picture.

To expand discussion, please present information/evidence for consideration.

[blufire]

Interesting idea, but you'll have to flesh out what might be the reasoning behind the intimate monitoring of the human population.

Bingo Norman.

Snowden has made no mistakes. He has performed his mission flawlessly.

His mission is a further step in the now rapid implementation of the New World Order or One World Government that will eventually lead us into a United Planet.

Snowdens mission will allow further tightening down of the freedom we have been allowed on the world wide web the past few years.

He is not 'of' the many he is an unaware tool of the 'few'.

[Chester]

What's the old story, blame the messenger when you don't like the message. Too hard to accept you are being conned and that some highly principled whistleblower is risking his life so you will wake up.

If my comments were taken for "blame" then my comments went over the head of the reader. No blame here - this is what humans do. I may have done the same if I had walked in Snowden's shoes (at age 29).

It is what it is.

My speculations are meant to expand further as to what may be (in part) behind such projects of agencies such as the NSA and meant for those who have the capacity to open their mind and discuss the possibilities I raised as to what might be the bigger picture.

To expand discussion, please present information/evidence for consideration.

already did - its all found in the Horus-Ra thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40941-Horus-Ra-as-the-Archontic-Alien-Parasite-A-follow-up-interview-with-Maarit) - as mentioned in this thread

To enfoldedblue -


Ha ha....no I certainly don't think that NSA is to fight terrorism (for me, probably like most here, terrorism a tool in the mechanisms of control), and not sure how you came to that impression from my post.

This statement was made to the overall readership and not aimed at you, specifically. My only comment direct to you was the last line in that post.

Here's an oldie but a goodie that may catch some folks up on some of the history as to how we got to where we are now -

Jim Marrs interview by Camelot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o9V1FDU1Yw)

at 54:00 ish Marrs mentions the previous "something happened" where civilization on earth was devastated.

One of the theories is that the aliens who wish to find a way to obtain (or fuse themselves with) a soul which it is believed most (perhaps all) humans have were close to perfecting their experiments with the human DNA such that they achieve their goal. The problem is with the Primordial Man creations who fear the aliens if they succeed in their quest. So the PM does a wipe out of humanity via some massive flood event, etc. and a few survivors continue on but are essentially sent back to zero which sets the aliens back as well. Again, I posted in an earlier post in this thread links to the information from Eve Lorgen and Dr. Malanga - that is what has inspired my thinking along these lines. I am simply trying to make sense of what has occurred (and is still occurring) on Earth.

[Chester]

I have read your other posts in the thread. But while there is possibility that the whole surveillance has been set up to protect our souls, it still seems potentially dangerous to me, as for me the real power important lies with the individuals, and moving away from the saviour idea. At one point you mentioned that maybe this was being done because humans were not ready or capable of handling the truth. I believe that humans are actually are actually amazing resilient creatures...who have been taught to giveaway their power since infancy. The problem is that many humans are accepting and trusting of the PTB and actually DO believe that they have their best interests at heart...they believe the lies they are told.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Its not as simple as that. Nothing is simple up at that level anyways. Earth is made up of various factions which have their own agendas. The purpose of something like the NSA would be multi-faceted. In fact, the original intentions of such an agency may change over time.

My hypothesis as to what may be one of the goals (and yes, perhaps the number one goal) of the NSA and other sophisticated intelligence agencies which work together could have as one of its motivations, the hope of staving off what might be perceived as adversaries - the ones I mentioned in posts above.

I am not at all drawing any conclusions nor implying what conclusions any of us should make nor painting any of the actors in this global drama as good or bad necessarily. I do believe we should consider how important one's word is (one's personal integrity is) when taking on positions of responsibility and thus being allowed to be "read into" various projects which these agencies are performing.

I say this because I do not believe idiots run the world. I also do not believe those who manage this planet and manage humanity on earth are void of concerns for us all.

I may be wrong and it would be quite sad if I were. We shall see, yes?

[Chester]

Interesting idea, but you'll have to flesh out what might be the reasoning behind the intimate monitoring of the human population.

Bingo Norman.

Snowden has made no mistakes. He has performed his mission flawlessly.

His mission is a further step in the now rapid implementation of the New World Order or One World Government that will eventually lead us into a United Planet.

Snowdens mission will allow further tightening down of the freedom we have been allowed on the world wide web the past few years.

He is not 'of' the many he is an unaware tool of the 'few'.

Good comment as now we can consider if this was all meant to be. With the mind hacking technology and MK Ultra type programming, Snowden, in fact, could be a creation. Perhaps "they" want to force the dialogue regarding this type of surveillance so that it goes mainstream and then becomes accepted. Just one more step to assimilation and right at the threshold of Humanity 2.0.

Notice as of yet, no mass riots, no FEMA camp internments, no genocidal virus outbreaks, no Blue Beam false alien invasions, no return of Jesus, no Armageddon, no massive culling of the human population.

You think its possible we might become viewed as a resource worth saving? Maybe some of their decisions is up to us. Can our egos get over it? Lots of obstacles for sure... the human ego alone is tricky enough.

[T Smith]

I have difficulty embracing the idea that handlers of humanity and the planet are motivated with our best interests at heart. That's not to say I don't think about it often in those terms (perhaps wishfully); it just doesn't resonate. The notion that they are doing what they are doing for our own good, albeit keeping us non-evolved serfs out of the loop for our own good, just doesn't ring true to me. For sure I know they think we cannot handle whatever the true objective of these agencies are, whatever they may be. I am reminded of this continually with little pieces of evidence that strongly support this.

One very telling piece of info is the Jimmy Carter incident in Richard Dolan's book, UFOs and the National Security State . If anyone is old enough to recall, or has a decent grasp of history, they will remember or know that Jimmy Carter was somewhat of a populist president; one of his campaign promises was to "...make every piece of information this country has about UFO sightings available to the public and the scientists."

Carter's words are not ambiguous. They are clear. But he backpedaled once in office, citing "defense implications" behind his decision. Why? Dolan documents a specific instance in his book that is very chilling if one takes the time to really reflect on what it might mean. A naive Carter eager to tell the public what the hell is going on in the skies is quietly briefed on the reality when Carter broaches the subject sitting at his desk in the Oval Office. This briefing was so sensitive that the man briefing the President actually whispered whatever it was directly in his ear. Whatever was said, Carter immediately puts his head in his arms and wept. After this reaction by Carter to whatever it was the man told him, any form of disclosure was officially off the table. This tells me Carter learned of something so grave and wrenching that he had no choice but accept what every other leader before him has also accepted: that the people simply cannot handle the truth.

There are countless examples like this that illustrate the same point.

[Water33/6]

If Snowden had sold the information to a foreign government for financial gain or just to make mischief, I believe he could be called a traitor. However, what he has done is give up a secure career and freedom to tell us - through a respectable newspaper - that we are being spied upon and in the process has thoroughly embarrassed the government and its allies. I don't see how he could have done it any other way.

I agree... But also, his actions do not take into consideration what he does not know.

We can only judge his actions right or wrong / good or bad at some point in the future... as long as that future hasn't been overly compromised by his actions and no one is here left to judge.

He's a hero. You could make the case that oh well torturing prisoners of war is ok bec there's a bigger picture that the main stream public doesn't know. BS.... It's wrong ....

The ends DO NOT justify the means for the NSA. What they are doing is an abuse of power. kudos to Snowden.

[Maunagarjana]

You really think the NSA could have as it's goal the sovereignty of humanity in any way shape or form? What a joke. I don't buy it for a millisecond.

[naste.de.lumina]

Could there be folks here on earth who inherited responsibilities from a previous generation or two where their predecessors may have had truly horrific ideas for humanity, but the offspring may have modified those plans yet have retained the knowledge and technology handed to them? If that might be the case, would they be able to "disclose?" I would think they would have to implement a plan that results in civilization 2.0 without stirring up the planet.

Look at Brazil - all they did was increase bus fares. And they get riots in the streets for days.

If you were in the position of the so called PTBs, what would you do?

I am not at all stating what I think is right or wrong. This planet doesn't run on what we might think is morally right or wrong anyways. Surely we are aware of that by now.



Hey buddy.
Rapidly and without intruding on the main subject.
Tariffs were the water drop and not the main subject itself.
In addition many people are suspicious that there is a globalist agenda from behind these protests.
see: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?60357-Globalist-Agenda-behind-the-protests-and-anarchy-in-Brazil

[Chester]

Could there be folks here on earth who inherited responsibilities from a previous generation or two where their predecessors may have had truly horrific ideas for humanity, but the offspring may have modified those plans yet have retained the knowledge and technology handed to them? If that might be the case, would they be able to "disclose?" I would think they would have to implement a plan that results in civilization 2.0 without stirring up the planet.

Look at Brazil - all they did was increase bus fares. And they get riots in the streets for days.

If you were in the position of the so called PTBs, what would you do?

I am not at all stating what I think is right or wrong. This planet doesn't run on what we might think is morally right or wrong anyways. Surely we are aware of that by now.



Hey buddy.
Rapidly and without intruding on the main subject.
Tariffs were the water drop and not the main subject itself.
In addition many people are suspicious that there is a globalist agenda from behind these protests.
see: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?60357-Globalist-Agenda-behind-the-protests-and-anarchy-in-Brazil

This was the information I got, which... on the news, was characterized as "hikes in bus fares." - Of course I am talking a US media organization's exact words but does not mean accurate -

from a non US media source -
(http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/06/2013619134555233454.html)


Sao Paulo, Brazil - What started in anger over a 20 cent transport fee increase has ballooned into Brazil's most significant social unrest in decades, with tens-of-thousands taking to the streets demanding economic justice.

But I did not state or imply this was not a "straw breaking the camel's back" situation. Aren't practically all uprisings the same? Doesn't water steam for a long time before it finally begins to boil? But also, in a world where it is so easy to trigger the boiling, the same world that us conspiracy theorists sometime like to believe in fact will boil over it still misses deadline after deadline, timeline after timeline, prediction after prediction... how could this be?

Could it be enough that we are simply distracted, controlled, managed as one might do for a desirable resource?

[Chester]

I have difficulty embracing the idea that handlers of humanity and the planet are motivated with our best interests at heart.

If we state something as black or white like the above statement, I agree with the statement. But, if one does the research, one might find there to be a purpose in guarding the safety of the human being which would also be understood as selfishly done from the guard dogs' point of view.

Also, it is important not to misinterpret or draw conclusions as to what may have been implied by my written words in this thread.

My only goal is to bring forth thoughts that I have not seen so far in all these discussions regarding a "snowden" or the NSA or "our rights under the US Constitution" or matters humanity faces that are difficult for most folks to even open their mind to as possibility, much less accept as actual reality.

I also bring up how critical it may be that when someone gives their word in relation to the sanctity of information prior to receiving that information, there may be information they are not privy to such that if they were, they would keep their mouth shut.

That any of us thinks we are so special that each one of us alive in a human body right now should be brought into full awareness of all truths, historical and current, when this world has been steeped in the darkness of deception for dozens of centuries, may not be thinking clearly.

To believe that this paradigm is going to vanish at the snap of the fingers and that there not be some massive, negative eruptions of reactions to full disclosure... disclosure that would likely and permanently threaten life as we know it on Earth right now (ala Greer's dream for example "All aliens are benevolent" - that is BS I know from personal experience). A new world (managed by some form of new world order) would have to ease it in. Since we the people are an object in the view of this easing, I would at least consider how our role might impact how this would be rolled out.

NOTE: if you take my words to imply I am trying to support the idea of a centralized world government like has been depicted by Icke, aka "The New World Order," you would be wrong. I am pointing out that as far as I can tell, this "order" has been here and been in charge for perhaps centuries. Just because we suddenly are given (yes, given) the internet such that in 20 years we have expanded our awareness (us... the general population) on such a massive scale suggests maybe they want us to have a shot in getting up to speed and so I wonder why?

I think it is intriguing and I, myself, want to know why.

It is arrogance to think I, some human being on Earth at this time that will live maybe 80 years or so, can demand "rights" or else but that appears to be the attitude of most on this planet.

Are we truly in a position to make such demands?

Since when is "what is right" that which prevails?

I think of my children and my younger than me wife and my younger than me sister and my close loved ones / friends... and I know my greatest wish is that they have a world to live in and that their children do also and only then do I consider how best I, as an individual, can think speak/write and act such that this world moves in the best direction possible. That's all most of us can do in physicality.


The notion that they are doing what they are doing for our own good, albeit keeping us non-evolved serfs out of the loop for our own good, just doesn't ring true to me.

I never stated nor implied the above stated reason - "for our own good." I stated we may be seen as a resource. No where in that statement is their an implication they have our best interests in mind.

I did point folks here to the information which does state that the human being is a container for the Soul which is the component that ensures eternal life and is sought by other beings who do not have this component so that they may also have eternal life. By taking over the mind component of a human being, a non ensouled being may attach its essence to the non integrated human being such that the attaching entity can "feed off" the soul essence of the human.

Now I want to make something clear - it may be that immortality is achievable through these technologies, but I do not see immortality to be the same thing as having eternal life. A spirit being can "continue" but without a soul and an integrated experience of soul / spirit / mind, the spirit being will only exist, but cannot live (ie. be alive... what so many of us know as to be truly alive!).

Anyways, this is what is going on at the root of the "possession" phenomena.

I cannot speak for others, but my soul in this lifetime had been (and may to some extent still be) possessed since I was 6 years old. It has not been fun. I have done terrible things that have negatively effected others, family and loved ones at the top of my personal list. I sought change and have been willing to go through anything to make these changes. I have come a long way and in a positive direction yet I sense the personal work may never be done. I also believe I must be extremely vigilant as I peel off the layers of self deception.

What I have brought up in this thread has surely been controversial. I do so in hopes that others consider these views as my bet is few have even considered them.

I do this because I am compelled to. What could possibly be compelling me to do so? The entity(s) that possess me? The real Chester? I don't know.

[Chester]

The latest (http://news.yahoo.com/former-nsa-contractor-snowden-leaves-hong-kong-moscow-080843121.html)

Why does this all seem like nothing more than Kabuki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabuki) theater?

Odds on which country Snowden ends up residing for the foreseeable future:

Cuba +1200 (13.000)

Venezuela +1500 (16.000)

Ecuador +900 (10.000)

Iceland -165 (1.606)

none of the above +625 (7.25)

[heyokah]

****

Joseph Farrell talks about an important article in USA Today (June 16) about the Snowden Affair:

3 NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower: We told you so.....



In a roundtable discussion, a trio of former National Security Agency whistle-blowers tell USA TODAY that Edward Snowden succeeded where they failed.

When a National Security Agency contractor revealed top-secret details this month on the government's collection of Americans' phone and Internet records, one select group of intelligence veterans breathed a sigh of relief.

Thomas Drake, William Binney and J. Kirk Wiebe belong to a select fraternity: the NSA officials who paved the way.

For years, the three whistle-blowers had told anyone who would listen that the NSA collects huge swaths of communications data from U.S. citizens. They had spent decades in the top ranks of the agency, designing and managing the very data-collection systems they say have been turned against Americans. When they became convinced that fundamental constitutional rights were being violated, they complained first to their superiors, then to federal investigators, congressional oversight committees and, finally, to the news media.

To the intelligence community, the trio are villains who compromised what the government classifies as some of its most secret, crucial and successful initiatives. They have been investigated as criminals and forced to give up careers, reputations and friendships built over a lifetime.

Today, they feel vindicated.

They say the documents leaked by Edward Snowden, the 29-year-old former NSA contractor who worked as a systems administrator, proves their claims of sweeping government surveillance of millions of Americans not suspected of any wrongdoing. They say those revelations only hint at the programs' reach.

On Friday, USA TODAY brought Drake, Binney and Wiebe together for the first time since the story broke to discuss the NSA revelations. With their lawyer, Jesselyn Radack of the Government Accountability Project, they weighed their implications and their repercussions. They disputed the administration's claim of the impact of the disclosures on national security — and President Obama's argument that Congress and the courts are providing effective oversight.

And they have warnings for Snowden on what he should expect next.......

Read further:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/

****
Here's what Joseph Farrell has to say about it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIBPRkf4FNA

[music]

Wonder if you are being controlled? Here's a tip - if you start making excuses for the wearer of the jackboot that is planted squarely in your face, then chances are your mind is not your own.

In my opinion, the biggest mistake made by many on this site is to dip into threads like the above-mentioned "Horus-Ra parasite etc", then to be themselves consumed by a form of psychic parasitism which in my opinion is agenda based, and which cleverly uses imperfections within the human psyche to generate spiralistic depression and apathy. The source of all human ills are then placed outside of us and our control, and yet again we find ourselves disempowered.

The whole thing smacks of dogma to me when I read things like "well, you possibly couldn't understand if you haven't read the Horus Ra thread." Sounds just like the bible, or many another control mechanism document to me, I'm afraid.

I mean no offence to anyone by this, but really? Do I wish I had a dollar for everyone who has read that and similar threads, been ensnared, and then lost the vital spark they once had? No, I would rather wish to remain just as poor as I am now.

[Chester]

Wonder if you are being controlled? Here's a tip - if you start making excuses for the wearer of the jackboot that is planted squarely in your face, then chances are your mind is not your own.

In my opinion, the biggest mistake made by many on this site is to dip into threads like the above-mentioned "Horus-Ra parasite etc", then to be themselves consumed by a form of psychic parasitism which in my opinion is agenda based, and which cleverly uses imperfections within the human psyche to generate spiralistic depression and apathy. The source of all human ills are then placed outside of us and our control, and yet again we find ourselves disempowered.

The whole thing smacks of dogma to me when I read things like "well, you possibly couldn't understand if you haven't read the Horus Ra thread." Sounds just like the bible, or many another control mechanism document to me, I'm afraid.

I mean no offence to anyone by this, but really? Do I wish I had a dollar for everyone who has read that and similar threads, been ensnared, and then lost the vital spark they once had? No, I would rather wish to remain just as poor as I am now.

Anyone who reads into my posts in this thread, I am "making excuses" for anyone else's views and/or behavior is revealing they are still stuck in an ancient paradigm... one which, in my view, if we cannot leave behind, will decrease the odds we survive ourselves.

I have been examining the situation and presenting my speculations for the purpose of increasing our understanding as to what may be going on here on Earth today. Since when is seeking to understand the points of views of others and the possibilities as to what may be translate into agreeing with the actions of others?

And "music," unless you have walked in the shoes of everyone else, your opinions as to the validity of some one else's experience is simply and only that - an opinion. To then represent that opinion as fact is the height of ignorance and arrogance.

In addition, if you have read my posts in this thread, you will note I fully consider the possibility I am still under the influence of one or more entities and/or MK Ultra type mind control. How am I supposed to know?

But what you can count on is my honesty but that statement is simply words... only those who know me like my family and close friends know the degree of truth that resides in my statement.

Its up to the reader to decide to read or not my views, to read and study the subject(s) brought forth in the Horus-Ra thread and what one then might consider and then do (if anything).

[Chester]

I mean no offence to anyone by this, but really? Do I wish I had a dollar for everyone who has read that and similar threads, been ensnared, and then lost the vital spark they once had? No, I would rather wish to remain just as poor as I am now.

In my case, I found the pathway to freedom for my soul through that thread.

Horus-Ra (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40941-Horus-Ra-as-the-Archontic-Alien-Parasite-A-follow-up-interview-with-Maarit)

In fact, for the first time in my life, I actually feel truly alive. In addition, I have essentially lost all fear.

Poor? I have my soul (again) - poor is now an illusion and thing of some past nightmare... barely even a memory.

I would contend that what one might call one's "vital spark" may in fact be nothing more than an acquiescence to the views of others. A free soul gains (or regains) the ability to think for themselves without having to impose their opinions on others.

I have attempted to present thoughts / ideas / considerations - the reader's decide.

The only opinion I offered was my view that one's word is important. Who would argue with that statement?

[music]

Opinions are all we can have, and I expressed mine, as I made clear. I'm afraid I can't help becoming alarmed when I hear talk, even theoretical, that places us in the role of hapless maiden tied to train tracks, swooning and helpless, asking the wax-moustachioed villain for mercy as they tell us that they have foreseen that we where to be abducted, raped and mutilated by outlaws, so quick, clean death by the 9.15 to Denver really is preferable.

And make no mistake, any acquiescence to oppressive and intrusive governance is death.

Sorry to be so melodramatic, but it's the flavour of the moment. Sure, Snowden might be an agent of some agenda, but there is no excuse for taking peoples freedoms, and the whole NSA thing smacks of the "alleged" intelligence gathering component of things such as LSD and prostitution blackmail houses, and auditing in the early history of you know what. There is no honour to be had from a path of dishonour. In my mind, yes, it really is that simple. Either you walk straight, or if you can't and it means you die, then you die. It's no biggie, we all do it.

[Chester]

Again, who is to say what path is actually "walked straight?" Especially when the one who becomes that judge is missing relevant information?

It is why I do not judge, either way, the actions of "snowden" other than to suggest that none of us benefit from supporting those who give their word that information they are provided and/or come upon remains within the designated confines based on their agreement's parameters. There is an apparatus available for whistle blowers and in this case, that vehicle was circumvented.

Only history will judge (as it always does) whether Snowden is a hero or something else.

I see the whole drama as very human.

I also have concerns these actions make our future more difficult.

I also see the US being humbled a bit, and that may end up being a good thing.

I also do not believe in coincidences.

I also am open minded their exists a "government" that has no public name and which may be the actual government in charge around this planet, thus the Snowden incident may simply be part of a larger plan.

I am open minded that I do not know any of these things for certain though I am a decent odds maker by trade.

I am wise enough that I do not pretend to know what is morally right beyond my only opinion that one should do their best to honor their word.

[music]

When we look at ourselves in the mirror in the morning, this is a good time to assess whether we have walked a straight line or not. Nobody has all the information, we just do the best we can with what we have been given, and that's all we can do. If we use our limited information with a loving heart, then on balance we will do less harm than good.

The US humbled, a good thing? Maybe, but maybe not if the purpose of the thing is to hasten a one world government. I saw earlier the comment "why aren't we all sitting in FEMA camps?" I would say because there are still plenty of relatively strong nations with strong militaries in the world. Had we a one world government with centralised military control, then yes, many of us probably would be in camps already by now, or worse.

Is all the whistleblowing part of a game to destabilise governments and erode trust to such an extent that people beg for a strong one world government? I don't care. I will contribute my energy to a momentum of truth and change for the sake of truth and change, and that energy will contribute to the greater common good. It is my energy - they may try to command it, but the intent I put upon it will always be my own.

So as well as considering what I do, and honouring my word, I also consider what I do with my energy. Does it contribute to the net of fear? Or is it the act that frees the bird?

[Chester]

Just as nations formed on Earth, Earth will unify so as to achieve representation amongst other planets.

I would be concerned as to how this is done, what we end up with and strive not to stick a stake into the heart of the inevitable.

Oh... and based on what I see, that government is already here and has been here for dozens of centuries.

We are just in the stage of an attempt to unify two (or more) civilizations.

Known as the Great Work by some.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Interesting idea, but you'll have to flesh out what might be the reasoning behind the intimate monitoring of the human population.

Let's brainstorm for a moment, about the reasoning behind monitoring (almost) the entire human population.

Super computers can be programmed to predict outcomes based on human behavior and simulated events. The more data collected on each person, the more accurate is computer output based on the behavior of individuals and groups. I'm sure this idea is not new but current technology makes this more powerful than ever before.

Let's assume there are control freaks who want to control the world (not a new idea).

The control freaks brainstorm scenarios (created problems, false flags, etc.) that may assist them in their goal to dominate the planet.

Based on the computer predictions from various stimulus, the control freaks pick their next action to enslave the planet.

Problem, reaction, solution.

Another apparent benefit to gathering all this data is to simply identify those who can be easily controlled and those who oppose tyranny of the control freaks.

[sigma6]

I do know this... anyone with a brain should have realized long, long ago (before Icke started his "mission") that Big Brother was here and very well established.

That may be true... but computer technology and the digitizing of all communication systems... changes everything in terms of the leverage a small group of people can have over an infinite number of others.



It is well known "the government" had quite impressive computer power in the 60s. Power that wasn't made commercially available to the public until the 90s - that is 30 years.

Big Brother has been here and well before 1984.

Again that may be so, but the rest of the world wasn't hooked up, and I still don't think even today we have reached anywhere near the world according to that movie "Eagle Eye" far, far from it... I incorrectly felt that it was a lot farther off in the horizon, (but that isn't stopping them from starting to build that out today, I can see the horizon a lot closer now. All the computing power in the world isn't that big a deal unless you have an infrastructure to hack into. Vista was a big step towards that with its near unlimited built in back doors thanks to the Anti-trust negotiations of Bill Gates. But even today there are still huge protocol, compatibility, connectivity issues. I will say this, I shut down all the "remote assistance" functions, wherever I can find them, and in Services, as a start.

I just wouldn't want to be born into that kind of world that is closing on our heels, I liked the wide expanses of freedom I experienced as a youth. Today school yards look like prison yards.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

All the snooping is another reason to dump Microsoft and go Linux or Apple. It might help a little.

[Debra]

But what if there's more to it than meets the eye of either side of the above views?



You ask some tantalising questions justoneman and provocative too. Although my own personal agenda is to get everything out into the open and enema the whole matrix .. I am still open to an idea that some things that are compartmentalised within secrecy might indeed be for our greater good - this notion has also crossed my mind when I have considered the wider agenda behind chemtrail spraying but the kicker is, the things are in plain sight yet we are told they don't exist! So seriously, they cannot have any respect for us - whoever *they* are!

There have also always been whistleblowers and exponentially more in recent years because the dam is bursting now. Yet it does not surprise me that a whistleblower has been set up *to test the waters of public feeling* either! I heard Alfred Webre during his interview with Anya Briggs say that he had heard from Global Research that Snowden's imminent defection was picked up by the NSA and they fed him the PowerPoint document that went to Th Guardian (unbeknownst to Snowden) ... So it is a complex question you ask because either way a dirty game is being played.

The sticking point for me is, how sad a world we live in that one person who sees something wrong with the system cannot go confidently to the system and say we are #uckin up and we can do this better. Because he knows he will be toast. Because the system is about control and power. Not transparency and honesty, certainly not about humanity and love.

I think your question is a fair one but I think we know enough now about the insides of the belly of the beast to realise that intellectualising over blurred lines is just giving more power to a system that humanity has largely become enslaved to.

Enough is enough.

[naste.de.lumina]

I do know this... anyone with a brain should have realized long, long ago (before Icke started his "mission") that Big Brother was here and very well established.

That may be true... but computer technology and the digitizing of all communication systems... changes everything in terms of the leverage a small group of people can have over an infinite number of others.



It is well known "the government" had quite impressive computer power in the 60s. Power that wasn't made commercially available to the public until the 90s - that is 30 years.

Big Brother has been here and well before 1984.

Again that may be so, but the rest of the world wasn't hooked up, and I still don't think even today we have reached anywhere near the world according to that movie "Eagle Eye" far, far from it... I incorrectly felt that it was a lot farther off in the horizon, (but that isn't stopping them from starting to build that out today, I can see the horizon a lot closer now. All the computing power in the world isn't that big a deal unless you have an infrastructure to hack into. Vista was a big step towards that with its near unlimited built in back doors thanks to the Anti-trust negotiations of Bill Gates. But even today there are still huge protocol, compatibility, connectivity issues. I will say this, I shut down all the "remote assistance" functions, wherever I can find them, and in Services, as a start.

I just wouldn't want to be born into that kind of world that is closing on our heels, I liked the wide expanses of freedom I experienced as a youth. Today school yards look like prison yards.

And besides, these young people who were born in the late 80s onwards, has no concept of how they can live without a cell phone or a intenet.
Lose the reference, and it would be a huge difficulty for any resistance when and if there is a crisis.
We who are older (at least I am, hehe) and we spent our youth without these toys, we lived well.
Okay that facilitate and enabled many impossible things before, but we have memories of how we do without these facilities. Unfortunately a large part of the population today could not and would be willing to swap these toys for freedom.

[Another1]

~ a few of the comments I find online remind me of the flavour of this video ... this is one thing in 'reality' I would like to be wrong about but as yet, I have not seen any evidence to the contrary. Our leaders are smug and really expect us to thank god for what they let us do:

pvsADU2OOWM

[music]

~ a few of the comments I find online remind me of the flavour of this video ... this is one thing in 'reality' I would like to be wrong about but as yet, I have not seen any evidence to the contrary. Our leaders are smug and really expect us to thank god for what they let us do:

pvsADU2OOWM

Of course they are smug.

While we prattle on with memes they implanted into us to distract, disempower and divert us, they quietly pull the rug just that little further out from under us. Matrix? Implanted disempowerment by the meme of "The One". Archons? Implanted distortion of a relatively innocuous spiritual phenomenon. The list is endless. The aim? Take our power, and utilise its energy to their own ends.

My reading? We are all-powerful beings, aspects of all that is (source), in other words, we are all God. Why the disempowerment? Because our egos allow us to be hoodwinked into childishness (that is childish, as opposed to childlike - to be childlike is to be God), we fear that we are so terribly small, and the natural result of feeling that we are so terribly small is to look externally for a saviour. The idea that things are hidden from us for our own good snatches us from the childlike, and dumps us into the childish. The idea that we need a secure and centralised power to represent/take care of us is childish. It is how Hitler came to power, and the same people who manipulated the public then, manipulate us now.

You bet they are smug.

We spend way too much time in the head, and we consume way too much mainstream media and entertainment output. Everything we consume is designed to disempower us, even those things many in the alt community are precious about eg (again!) The Matrix series of films. These are designed to render us childish. The idea of malign/benign alien intelligences far superior to ours? Render us childish. Lost civilisations far superior than ours, lost humans far superior to us? Childish. Every day here now, I read someone legitimising our own enslavement: maybe we do need a strong central power to represent us? Maybe Monsanto knows more than we do and has our best interests at heart? Maybe chemtrails are actually to save us from ... (choose from any number of options, or choose "all of the above"). Childish.

Yes, you bet they are smug. They play us like a 2 lb fish on a 20 lb line.

So here we are, in illusion, where we are all-powerful, and anything goes, and we allow ourselves to be hoodwinked into impotent childishness. Is that really the best we can do here?

[norman]

Interesting idea, but you'll have to flesh out what might be the reasoning behind the intimate monitoring of the human population.

Let's brainstorm for a moment, about the reasoning behind monitoring (almost) the entire human population.

Super computers can be programmed to predict outcomes based on human behavior and simulated events. The more data collected on each person, the more accurate is computer output based on the behavior of individuals and groups. I'm sure this idea is not new but current technology makes this more powerful than ever before.

Let's assume there are control freaks who want to control the world (not a new idea).

The control freaks brainstorm scenarios (created problems, false flags, etc.) that may assist them in their goal to dominate the planet.

Based on the computer predictions from various stimulus, the control freaks pick their next action to enslave the planet.

Problem, reaction, solution.

Another apparent benefit to gathering all this data is to simply identify those who can be easily controlled and those who oppose tyranny of the control freaks.

Ok, but, I thought he was suggesting that all this intimate scrutiny was supposed be ultimately a GOOD thing. Like, somehow, it was part of defending the human race from some sort of ET takeover.

[Chester]

Interesting idea, but you'll have to flesh out what might be the reasoning behind the intimate monitoring of the human population.

Let's brainstorm for a moment, about the reasoning behind monitoring (almost) the entire human population.

Super computers can be programmed to predict outcomes based on human behavior and simulated events. The more data collected on each person, the more accurate is computer output based on the behavior of individuals and groups. I'm sure this idea is not new but current technology makes this more powerful than ever before.

Let's assume there are control freaks who want to control the world (not a new idea).

The control freaks brainstorm scenarios (created problems, false flags, etc.) that may assist them in their goal to dominate the planet.

Based on the computer predictions from various stimulus, the control freaks pick their next action to enslave the planet.

Problem, reaction, solution.

Another apparent benefit to gathering all this data is to simply identify those who can be easily controlled and those who oppose tyranny of the control freaks.

Ok, but, I thought he was suggesting that all this intimate scrutiny was supposed be ultimately a GOOD thing. Like, somehow, it was part of defending the human race from some sort of ET takeover.

Exactly - thanks, norman - you got it.

Note, I was only theorizing as I am anything but an insider. Although I may be chipped and/or compromised in another way... and so I am simply "the unwitting messenger."

related -

this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40941-Horus-Ra-as-the-Archontic-Alien-Parasite-A-follow-up-interview-with-Maarit&p=697967&viewfull=1#post697967)

[rgray222]

No matter how you slice it, transparency was promised as a cornerstone of Obama's Presidency, Snowden just brought some sunlight on what the government is doing. It seems the only way we are going to get transparency is from whistleblowers and under this administration they are being prosecuted and persecuted for coming forward, they are paying a very heavy price for speaking out.

[grannyfranny100]

I wonder if the dumbies that represent us in Congress realize that all the info being gathered includes info on them? It can be used as blackmail to force Congress to write legislation the secret government wants not what their voters want.